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Hi everybody
Here's a picture (resized and lower resolution) that I took of the sun setting over the Culver tracks...
Don't ask why SeaBeach53 was on Culver...
This was at Bay Parkway, one of the few stations on the Culver that do not have those high steel gates...yep, if some nut was to come push me over, I would've fallen right into the cemetary...
I don't know how to insert a link, so you'll have to copy & paste...
Next picture will be of Sea Beach...
Enjoy.
Jonathan / SeaBeach53
http://members.aol.com/jsyee53/myhomepage/culversunset.jpg
And here's your picture as a link. Do a View Source to see how I did it. (Nice shot, BTW.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Very nice picture. Was it around 7 when it happened? Just curious.
I just bought a new smart media card for my digital camera and had 250 pics...anyway, I stood at the Manhattan bound Bay Parkway station for over an hour starting from 6:45 until it was really too dark...
I got some good ones, some going down the express tracks, some with the Ver. Naroows Bridge in the back...
I also went to Astoria for pics of the N, you really can't take good pics of Sea Beach, I'm going to try Ft Hamilton Pkwy (CI bound side)...at least there are some trees in the back...
I'll work on posting them or maybe I'll just send them to the webmaster...
Taking pictures is the easy part...linking or posting them is another story for me...
Taking pictures is the easy part...linking or posting them is another story for me...
Well, as I noted a couple of posts above, just View Page Source and see how it's done... how do you think I learned how to do it? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for responding. Good work!
That's right Sea Beach 53. I want to see some Sea Beach shots AND THE SOONER THE BETTER!!!!!!
Calm down, Fred...calm down!
Hey Marty, thanks for thinking about me. However, have you read the posts about how filthy the N line is along the cut? I guess people can't empty their garbage in trash cans. They have to throw out on the tracks.
Not to mention the LIRR tracks that run through the dense part of Flushing.
Here's one:
Since we're on the topic of html coding, you could also put the picture directly in the post, like this:
Great shot!
Mark
you really can't take good pics of Sea Beach
Try the overpasses of the Sea Beach cut. In some cases, you have to hold the camera really close to the fence and zoom in a little. In some cases, you can hold the camera OVER the fence.
It made for some great video, anyway :) W's running express on Sea Beach middle helped, too.
--Mark
ok so let me try one did it show
They both look great! You guys should make a line of Subway Wallpapers.
Shows up real nice... good shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And just think how much better the picture would have been if it was a Sea Beach train featured instead of the Culver F. Still, the F line is not a bad one and the picture is a nice one nevertheless.
>>And just think how much better the picture would have been if it was a Sea Beach train featured instead of the Culver F.<<
That may be a tall order Fred, the Sea Beach is buried in cut while the Culver is elevated. Elevation is the key to a good sunset shot. Anything south of Newkirk on the Brighton and most of the West End is a shoe in.
The Fourth Avenue subway ?.........impossible !
Bill "Newkirk"
I assume that the next update subway map will be dated September 2002 with changes such as the N/W flip on 8/9 and the restore of IRT 1 2 3 9 service on 9/15. Does anyone here know the official date on when Sept 2002 map will be release or available.
I think it's a random date, considering the fact that not all stations get the latest map at the same time. Any idea which stations gets it first?
Thats what I'm trying to find out. Now that I got everything in a box map from past to present, brochures, line schedules from pas to present. Now I'm waiting for the Sept 2002 Map
According to a highly reliable source (Train Dude) you'll see them in cars this week.
I'm suprised that there's been NO bitching about the closure of Neptune Ave, West 8th St. and Ocean Pkwy. for more than a year.
Any information is greatly appreciated on subtalk.
100 Cars.
-Stef
Here's a question for those who are familiar with upstate NY area. Last weekend I rode across the Mid-Hudson bridge in Poughkeepsie. I saw the long abandoned rail bridge that has been discussed here many times. Later in the ride, I was traveling west on Rt. 213 - West of Kingston. We passed under another very similar bridge that also was clearly abandoned. It doesn't show up on my maps. The question is:
Is that bridge part of the same line that leads to the abandoned bridge that spans the Hudson? Also, what does the bridge that I saw, span? From my vantage point on Rt. 213, all I could see were trees.
That's the former Wallkill Valley Railroad that once ran north/south through Wallkill, Gardner, New Paltz, Rosendale and Port Ewen. Connected WITH the Poughkeepsie bridge somewhere as well as what is now the Delaware and Ulster Rail Ride (something you'll DEFINITELY want to do if you ever end up there again) along with the Kingston Trolley museum and a raft of other places. TMNY has some of your former B division favorites, including R4 #825 (last seen in DEPLORABLE condition) and the pride of their fleet, R16 #6398 as well as a Q car that was worse off than 825 and several others. No offense intended towards TMNY in my comments here, if you ain't got the bucks and the volunteers, ain't much you can do.
So, might we still get to MEET your skeevy butt up this way before the snow flies? :)
Thanks, Kevin. I was hoping that you had the answer. As you can see from my subsequent post, I did do the railfan thing too.
Next weekend we'll be north of you, In Lake George, for the Adarondac Custom Car Show. Got room for 10 or 12 bikes to make a pit-stop on the trip back?
You betcha ... We *OWN* the road here, all 5/8 miles of it. And as you can see if you come up the hill, we didn't get the bond issue we'd been hoping for this year owing to a crappy economy and sheety sales. However, there's a COMPANY BAR and everything's top shelf. And of course, the price is right. Heh.
Drop me an email, I'll give ya da number. But for now, I'm done for the night, need me some sleepies. Was hanging out in case you responded to the priors. Moo!
Last weekend I went riding with my club up in the Catskills. Along Rt. 28 we found two very interesting sites. One is a tourist trap called Catskill Corners. They boast having the world's largest kalidascope. That's a waste of money but the Kalidascope museum is worth a look. (Anyone got an extra $9k for a kalidascope made out of a WWII bomb site.) But further west on Rt 28 is the town of Arkville - Home of the Delaware & Ulster Railroad.
There's a fair amount of equipment in the yard in various state of repair. There's even a very old 0-6-0 tank loco with a wooden scaffold around it. Unfortunately, since I was with my club which lacks real railfans, they only wanted to spend enough time to take the ride up the mountain and back.
The train is made up of 3 old NY Central coaches, an old AMTRTAK diner and 2 railfan cars (Flatcars with benches). The segment of the line we rode was about 8 miles long and corkscrews up the mountain. Amazingly, the grade reaches 3.7% for a fair segment of the ride. The only motor power we had was the 1800 HP from an ex- D&H RS36. From the flatcar, it seemed that it handled the job with little trouble.
At the other end of the line, Highmount, the loco is cut off and run around to the other end of the train for the ride back. It was here, armed with my ID Pass and badge, that I left my friends and 'train duded' my way into the cab. The ride down the mountain was far more intersting. Brake and D-Brake the whole way. The scenery is far from spectacular or exciting, It is beautiful, however.
The loco is in emaculate condition. It was completely rebuilt just 7 years ago and wears a new $10,000 paint job in its old D&H livery. The engineer is a full-time employee and is also the head mechanic (which I found totally fascinating). The bottom line is - this is one ride worth taking (even if you won't get into the cab).
BTW, just a few miles east, on the other side of the road is the Catskill scenic railroad. The opportunity to ride two different lines within such a small geograpic area should make the trip even more appealing.
I volunteered there a long, long time ago. They used to have an RS-3 on loan (old Alco jobbie) that I delighted in running with a "pilot" riding shotgun. Hint: Wabco ME-23 type braking. :)
Glad you had a fun peek, DURR was a really nice bunch of folks and the "train robbery show" and a number of their other ministrations made for quite a bit of fun. Been a long time since I've been there though. HIGHLY recommended.
Interesting info. The Delaware & Ulster doesn't seem to get much attention, certainly not in comparison to the Catskill Scenic RR, but it sounds like an excellent ride. Do you know until when its season runs?
Through October 27th. You can check out its website here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>The train is made up of 3 old NY Central coaches<<
For your info, those three coaches are ex-SEPTA nee-Pennsylvania Railroad MP-54 MU electrics. The 'Central never had any porthole window coaches to my knowledge.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>The train is made up of 3 old NY Central coaches<<
For your info, those three coaches are ex-SEPTA nee-Pennsylvania Railroad MP-54 MU electrics. The 'Central never had any porthole window coaches to my knowledge.
Bill "Newkirk"
NY Times article.
"According to Joseph J. Seymour, executive director of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey....
"In the interview, Mr. Seymour said, 'I think you're going to find that the PATH station is going to stay where it is.' The Port Authority has already begun rebuilding the station, although it had not been clear whether that would be only a temporary station or something more permanent."
Also Seymour says the concourse from the WFC east to the Fulton St subways will not pass through the footprint of the north tower.
Full article at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/01/nyregion/01TRAN.html.
(You need a free login to read it).
According to New York Post, Port Authority is already working on rebuilding the station. My opinion is to use the Church St abandoned PATH station instead of the WFC station.
They are already building a temporary station on the site of the former (1970-2001) station. What Seymour is saying is that will probably be the permanent station as well, i.e., that they probably won't build the permanent station closer to Church St.
Well, PATH can still be intergrated fairly easily with the IRT 1/9 lines, and that line was always going to need a connecting tunnel to make the one-block link to the A/C/E/N/R, so the decision doesn't have to cause major problems with the "unified transit hub" plan.
The bigger question is about the connecting tunnel. Going by the article, from a practical standpoint, it's hard to figure how they plan to lower West Street, move the underground pathway over to Vescey Street and place the new commuter tunnel above the tracks in the B'way Nassau complex over at Fulton without coming up with a real roller-coaster zig-zag of a tunnel.
Lowering West Street means you can create an enclosed walkway at street level there, but you'd have to enclose it almost all the way up to Greenwhich Street, start lowering it below ground while next to the Verizon building (and the footprint of Tower 2 -- don't see how you can make that look very pretty). But you can't lower it much, because of the IRT 1/9 tunnel at Greenwich, so the builders will have to recreate the "Great Wall of Vescey Street," with any memorial plaza for the towers one level above the street (the same as the old WTC plaza in that area)
The walkway could run all the way to Vescey Street ... until it hits Church, then it's blocked by BMT N/R tracks, which would be on the same level, both on Church and Vescey streets. Unless they plan to lower the BMT tunnel, the pedestrian walkway will have to drop down at least one level to get under those tracks. That's OK, because unless they plan to also drop the IRT 4/5 tracks on Broadway one level, they'll have to have the walkway two flights below ground to get past those tracks.
Add to the fact that only one line through the B'way-Nassau complex even platforms as far north as Vescey (the J/M, which has a platform at Ann and Nassau Street) and the choice of Vescey for a walkway becomes even stranger. Odds are the walkway would zig back towards Fulton/Cortlandt sts once it's east of the Tower 2 footprint, and then turn east again under Fulton or Cordlandt beneath the BMT tracks on Church and the IRT tracks at Broadway and (if on Fulton) above the IND A/C tracks.
That's still a pretty winding route and I doubt it's what most people are envisioning. If they can squeeze the walkway into the area between the footprints of Towers 1 and 2 they really ought to think about it (and I still think instead of lowering West St., lowering the 1/9 tracks one level with a center-island platform would make more sense. The pedestrian walkway could then be run in a straight line and on the same level all the way from Nassau Street to the World Financial Center (which would also eliminate any escalators and ADA-mandated elevators a tunnel on more than one level would require).
It's definitely complicated, but perhaps not exactly as you are thinking of it.
- Seymour said the walkway would be further north toward Vesey St, not necessarily underneath it. It could be underneath the extension of Fulton St, where the former north bridge was.
- The ground level slopes. Broadway is a level higher than Church St, which is a level higher than West St.
One guess for the walkway (just based on common sense, no inside knowledge):
- 2 levels below Broadway (equivalent to 1 level below Church)
- Drops to be 2 levels below Church St so it gets under the N/R. It can do this as a ramp, no need for an escalator.
- Rises to be at ground level at Greenwich St (equivalent to 1 level below Church). Again, probably a ramp.
- Crosses West St at ground level.
Alternate plan:
- 2 levels below Broadway (equivalent to 1 level below Church)
- Drops to be 2 levels below Church St so it gets under the N/R.
- Drops to 2 levels below Greenwich St
- Crosses 2 levels underneath West St.
I noticed in the A and L train timestables that some L's terminate at Atlantic Av and some A's terminate at Rkwy Blvd. How do they do this? Does the A relay using the Ozone Pk express track or sun light and relay at Howard Beach? About the L to Atlantic, does it run light to Canarsie yard? Just curious, thanks.
Usually when a L train goes out of servive at Atlantic Ave, it goes to East NY yard. Othertimes it goes out of service at Rockaway Parkway and goes into Canarsie yard.
I have in my hand a timetable for the A line and I don't see any trains going out of service at Rockaway Blvd. I've noticed them going in/out of service at Lefferts Blvd or Far Rockaway.
Actually, some post AM rush hour L trains go o/s at Atlantic then go directly into Canarsie Yard so as to avoid the extra move at Canarsie. They can do this since the ridership in that direction that time of the day would be low.
If they're going to Canarsie Yard, why go o/s at Atlantic not E105?
Because when I worked there they ran your follower around you while you cleared the train of passengers. No can do at E. 105.
Will that still be possible after the Atlantic rebuild?
I was once on a train signed for Atlantic, but it was actually taken out of service at ENY.
"some A's terminate at Rkwy Blvd"
What the schedule means when it says "every 10 minutes to Rockaway Blvd" is not that it terminates there, but that every 10 minutes a trains goes in that direction. Once there, it continues either to Lefferts or Far Rockaway.
Thanks
Does anyone know the status of the museum and how it looks? And when in 2003 will it be open?
As a result of the events of September 11 the TA put the museum project on the back burner. Maybe after subway service is restored to lower Manhattan on Sept. 15 the TA can get back to the museum. Don't blame the TA this time, put the blame on those whacko fundamentalist murderers.
Please cite a source to back up the contention that the museum project is on the back burner. I work across the street from the place, and it looks like it's still under construction.
David
Never judge a book by it's cover...
What's being done downstairs counts!
Actually, much of what's being done there would be visible from the street - the addition of ADA compliant elevators etc. - a significant undertaking in and of itself.
wayne
They are not putting elevators in. The museum has had ADA compliant chair lifts for a few years now.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, there's always Branford!
That's strange. I'm a Charter Member of the Museum, and I just received a letter from the Director telling of the great progress that's being made in the renovation. Do you know something she doesn't?
It's been my understanding that the Transit Museum has not been under the jurisdiction of the Transit Authority for quite some time. As far as I know, if it weren't for the private group taking over the museum the TA would have scuttled it years ago.
The Museum is under the control of the MTA who took it from the TA a few years back.
There is a "private" group that oversees some of the Museum operations but it is the MTA that controls it all since the Court Street station is MTA property.
Like Todd I am a charter member. The last I heard was that everything was still on track but the exact opening date has not been announced.
So Allan Grabowski - what/who is your source for the information?
Agreed, Allan! In addition, I believe that the Transit Museum is a wholly-owned, non-profit activity of MTA, which means it has 501(c)(3) IRS status, allowing donations to be tax deductible to the extent permitted by law.
>>>...which means it has 501(c)(3) IRS status...<<<
That is correct, they do. Also, according my sources, the renovation is proceeding on schedule, for the most part.
Peace,
ANDEE
The renovation is ongoing - Five days a week I see stuff coming out of the museum and going into the museum. Also,NYCT security guards are posted at the station exit.
Does anyone know the wherabouts of the Museum's rolling stock?
I am assuming they were removed from the Court St. Station.
What exactly are they doing to the museum, besides making it ADA complient?
Oh no! They're doing that?
Yeah, I think from the unused Court Street entrance to the old Court Street station. They are not doing it at the main Boerum/Schermerhorn entrance
ADA, plus A/C, plus making it more a museum then a subway station.
From artinruins.com:
----------------------------------
Vintage Trolley Discovered in RI
The Veterans Square Diner, a converted trolley car had been open for business at 1461 Main Street in West Warwick until an automobile struck it on Thursday, September 7, 2000. The severe damage and a delay in settling an insurance claim prevented reopening of the diner. The town of West Warwick purchased the diner and the property and developed a plan to demolish the
diner and create a park along the river.
Daniel Zilka, director of the American Diner Museum informed town officials of the history of the diner and the need to preserve the rare converted trolley diner structure. Originally located
on Bald Hill Road in Warwick, the diner was moved to West Warwick in the 1940s and operated by Leo La Vallee until Jules Richter purchased it in 1956. Sam Richter assumed ownership of the diner in 1981 and operated until its unplanned closing in 2000.
Members of the American Diner Museum with the help of member Dick Shappy, of Shappy Classic Cars, discovered a rare surviving Providence trolley car from 1911 encased in the structure and will be restoring the trolley.
The trolley was one of 50 units ordered in 1911 for the United Electric Company of Providence, Rhode Island. The Osgood Bradley Company of Worcester, Massachusetts, built the trolleys. This particular trolley ran from Prospect Hill to Saylesville, along Lonsdale Avenue to Pawtucket to East Providence, Crescent Park. It also operated on Academy Avenue. The trolley was retired shortly after the line to Crescent Park was abandoned in the 1924. Much of the original trolley remains in good condition including the frame, some original windows and the destination scrolls. Town officials from West Warwick have given the American Diner Museum permission to remove the trolley structure prior to clearing the property.
Workers have been deconstructing the diner over the last two weeks and plan to remove the trolley on Tuesday, August 29 and Wednesday, August 21. The trolley will be relocated to Providence and undergo restoration.
I was at pacific street/Atlantic ave. station heading to Manhattan. A 2 train r-142 passes by and I saw where it was suppose to have mta New York City subway there were mets and Yankees symbols. I knew they did that to some r-142 for the World Series, but why put that set on the 2 shouldn't it be on the 4?
"I knew they did that to some r-142 for the World Series, but why put that set on the 2 shouldn't it be on the 4?"
The R-142 was on the #4 only for a few days during the 2000 Subway World Series, as you already know. Once the series was over, the R142 went back to the #2 where it was assigned to be. Now that the R142A option order is arriving, some R142As are replacing the redbirds that are on the #4. The R142 will not run on the #4, so therefore its ok that the #2 has those cars. -Nick
Uh i think cars 6316-6320 have mets and yankee logos.the rest 6311-6315 have returned to mta logos.The Yankee pinstipe was on the train for about 2-3 months.It only ran on the #4 for two days.Then it returned an ever since was in service on the #2 line and once in service on the #5.But now on the #2 line.Saw them last week
R142/R143MAN
Sent this lovingly to "(ta)" old-timers of my own ilk, thought you folks might enjoy this too. ESPECIALLY CURRENT ROADSTERS ...
Last night while I lay sleeping,
I died or so it seems.
Then I went to heaven.
But t'was only in my dreams.
But, it seems St. Peter met me,
There at the pearly gate.
He said, "I must check your record
So stand right here and wait.
I see where you drank whiskey,
And used tobacco, too.
Fact is you've done everything
That a good person shouldn't do.
We can't have people like you up here,
Your life was full of sin.
Then he read the last of my record,
Grasped my hand and said, "Come in."
He took me up to the Big Boss,
Said "Take him in and treat him well"
He worked for the Transit Authority, sir.
He's had his share of hell.
Back int he days PRIOR to toasters on wheels, if you worked for the "(ta)" and had a 12-0 on the road, supervision didn't wrestle you out of your cab to go downtown for a community whiz. No sir. The Motor Instructor would open up their flask, make you take two gulps to "steady your nerves" SO YOU COULD FINISH YER DAMNED RUN! :)
Oh what's happened in the past 50 years? Heh.
"12-0"
Meant "12-9" ... shows ya what 37 hours awake can do to ya. moo ... ouch. I go sleepies.
For sixteen years I've pounded the road.
Got out and pushed and dumped my load.
Retrieved my portions and iron only made.
Make it to the end only not to get paid.
Forced in on my day off to get reamed more.
Where management's the ***** and I am the wh***.
I had enough crap, had enough of this bath.
I died, went not to heaven or hell, but I woke up at PATH.
See Selkirk, you aren't the only one who quit their day job.
Heh. Nice touch! :)
That poem was great. I should leave instructions in my will to have this poem emblazoned on my tombstone.
Any reports?
Some 1's, now terminating and reversing at Chambers during the rush hours will turn on the loop at South Ferry.
Outside of the rush hours the loop will remain closed by G.O.'s.
Any information is greatly appreciated on subtalk.
Go away, troll.
If you really want the answer to your question, look back through earlier SubTalk posts. The answer - which I suspect will really surprise you - is out there. But I don't think you really care, otherwise you would already have looked.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry for my ignorence, but what is a "troll"? From the usage I've seen, I'm guessing it refers to someone who makes idiotic posts looking to start controversy. I am in the ball park?
Thanks
That is one aspect of the broader definition. Another part of the definition (and the context in which I was using the term) is someone who posts simply to post and see their name or handle on the message board, with no real interest in the response. In that context, the post doesn't necessarily have to be idiotic (although it often is) and it isn't necessarily intended to start controversy. Some trolls start flame wars, others (like Busfan) are simply annoying.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another sign is when they change their handle often because everyone killfiles them and they can't get the usual response.
Thanks,
I get the picture, and I most certainly agree, it is annoying to see posters asking very basic quesitons that the anwser is readily available on the site.
I realize that at times anyone (and I include myself in the catagory), can ask a question that may be anwsered on the site, but I see what you mean about those who do it over and over.
Piggo
In brief, it was much quicker to rebuild at the 1970-2001 site than at the pre-1970 site. The pre-1970 site does not accomodate the lnegth of train that PATH now uses.
When Route 15 is restored on Girard Av in 2003, will it come out of Callowhill or will it come out of Elmwood & if Route 15 does come out of Callowhill, will Route 10 serve Callowhill as well or will it continue to serve Elmwood.
Hey, not bad, at least this wasn't a POS post, too bad by now you are on everybody's Kill File.
Anyway, I believe at first the Rt. 15 will come out of Elmwood, using the surface diversion route to get to Girard Ave. At a time in the future, IIR, Callowhill will or may be renovated to repair the PCC and K-cars of the 10 and 15. But this is SEPTA, and if you listen to the folks in the Railroad.net Septa Forum, the Rt15 is not the best idea, so if the 15 will live to see Callowhill renovated remains to be seen.
I don't think there's anything wrong with light rail on Girard. It's an important thoroughfare some distance from the Market-Frankford line, and riders will appreciate it.
I'd like to see light rail back on Erie Avenue one day. Longer term, we need the Roosevelt Blvd subway also...
I'd like to see all of the above take place. I think the City Avenue corridor needs better transit, too, but I'm not sure what.
Mark
I agree. Bus service is pretty good there, but it deserves a subway.
Time and $$$...
Given unlimited cash, what would you do with City Avenue? Where would your subway run, and what other services would it connect to?
Mark
I would offer a transfer station to the R6 Bala and/or Cynwyd stations, a station transfer connection to the Market-Frankford line, and run the train to a connection to the Broad Street Subway.
Beyond that, I don't know. Haven't given it enough thought.
up until having read about the Roosevelt Blvd subway, I'd figured one under both City Avenue and the Boulevard would be a great idea. Looking at it now, City Avenue is just fine. It'd be double-tracked, with a direct interface with the Broad Street Line at Hunting Park (Heck, maybe even have it turn back at Erie or Olney), and the line itself would run all the way down U.S. 1 to Granite Run Mall (who wouldn't love that?) Stops would be semi-frequent, at the following locations.
Hunting Park (BSL Station)
Wissahickon Avenue (under Roosevelt Expressway)
Ridge-Midvale
Presidential (turnback point)
47th Street
Bala (connectrion to R6)
54th Street (turnback point)
63rd Street (Overbrook Rail Station)
City Line Center
West Overbrook (connect to Route 100)
Lansdowne Ave.
Pilgrim Gardens
Drexeline-Scenic Road
Springfield Road
Marple Crossroads (turnback point)
Rose Tree
Granite Run Mall
The line, as originally envisioned, would have continued into what is now the proposed alignment for the Roosevelt Blvd subway. I'm not sure exactly as to what stops will be used, but I had a few of my own. However, I think they're roughly the same, just a few blocks difference. For instance, I'd have used Front Street instead of Rising Sun Avenue, and Rhawn Street instead of Holme Avenue at the Pennypack Circle. I'd also have kept the line going to City Line and Neshaminy Mall.
That's a nice idea.
One of the ideas for the Roosevelt Subway was to run it in depressed lanes on the blvd. Now I heard something on the radio and saw a TV piece about using the depressed lanes for automoblies.
Anybody else hear of this?
Chuck Greene
That was Option D, a trench railway with an expressway. However, this idea was scrapped, and a variation of Option C was selected, calling for a subway with no expressway. The expressway was deemed to be unwelcome among residents. You can read more about the various options, and the the finally selected "C-prime" option at the projects website:
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study
Mark
I like the fact that your line connects with the Route 100 and even continues west of it.
I had a wild idea once in which a line such as the one you describe would continue northeast and run along the alignment of the current R8 Fox Chase line. Not sure if there's enough demand there for real rapid transit, though.
Mark
Erie/Torresdale Avenues=Route 56
Germantown Avenue/12th/11th Streets=Route 23
Girard Avenue=Route 15
Maybe they're going in numerical order. 15, then 23, then 56. Could be.
However, Route 23 or 56 trolley service would require that Luzerne Depot be rebuilt.
BTW, they don't need to use the diversion to reach Elmwood from Girard Avenue. They don't for the 10 trolley. All they'd need to do is change it from a 15 trip to a 10 trip (remember, they plan on running the 15 to 63rd & Malvern), and change to an 11 or 36 (or Route 13 Darby Terminal trip) at 13th Street, then take the car out of service at Island Ave. That way, they get the car out, and make money at the same time.
The Germantown trolley is probably not coming back. The street is too narrow; traffic is backed up as it is.
To add insult to injury, when a rail buckled recently, SEPTA didn't restore it - they removed the buckled piece.
WHAT? Where and when did this happen? After all this time, even when they restored the bridge at Wayne Junction, they took the wires down, but put them back up when the bridge was finished! Now they remove a buckled piece of rail?
On a lighter note, the 23 can come back if the 56 can. I'd forgotten that Old York Road has the access trackage from Luzerne Depot to the 23 route. If they rehab the place, say hello to the 56 and 23 trolley... again. Seriously, if they do the 15 (which is being done as we speak), they can do the 56, and if they do that, they'll probably rehab the access track to Germantown Avenue, and then we'll see trolleys on the 23. I don't think they'd only restore one of their only three remaining surface trolley lines. I rather believe that if they'd wanted to permanently convert any of them, they'd have removed the rails and wires a long time ago. They didn't waste much time with the 6 or 50, I remember when they had trolleys on both. They uprooted the rails and downed the wires about a year after the conversion to bus. The rails and wires for the 15, 23, and 56 have been standing since 1992. Trust me, the trolleys will return...
Germantown Av is too narrow for it. Girard and Erie are wider and there are trolley stations in the street. But anything's possible...
My wife almost punctured a car tire on that trolley rail., The next morning, a couple of inches had been removed and paved over.
I'm not as confident that 'trolleys will return'. After the experience SEPTA had on Girard (and having been forced to rebuild the line by former Mayor Rendell), and given SEPTA's basic reluctance to do this, I don't see any major rail projects anytime soon. If something happened, 23 would probably get first priority, given the political push (Chestnut Hill, especially), the track conditions on the line (major sections replaced within the last 25 years), and the 'quaint' factor. Yes, G'town is a narrow street, but it's wider than Lansdowne Ave and just as wide as portions of Baltimore Ave.
56, on the other hand, has had next to no rail work (the big exceptions are the 'transitways' done in the late 80's), and just about everything on Torresdale is shot at this point.
The operating base is another consideration. Luzerne is gone, and Midvale is not conducive for trolley operation (and is not all that convenient to 56 even though it isn't that far away from 23rd & Venango as the crow flies). Using Elmwood, Callowhill, or the 'new' Callowhill would be an operating disaster given the lengthy pull-ins/pull-outs. And, by the time these lines would be in operating condition, SEPTA would probably have to buy new cars to replace the K's and equip the 23/56 (and probably replace the worn-out PCC's on 15).
My bet, and I'll bet the rent money, is that 23 and 56 will never return. I say this reluctantly, as a fan of electric traction, but the reality is otherwise.
The rebuilding of the 15...yet another great thing Rendell accomplished when he was mayor.
www.rendellforgovernor.com
Under the current scenario, 15 still ends at 63rd & Girard. There was a push (mainly by City government) to extend it via 63rd to Malvern, but SEPTA being SEPTA, it will still end at 63rd & Girard for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately it will also continue to lay over in the middle of Girard Ave in a very vulnerable spot (City government also pushed for movement of the westbound track to Girard instead of Haverford and the construction of an off-street loop on Girard east of 63rd - this would have required the purchase of an auto-body shop which SEPTA was unwilling to do).
As noted in another post, the Girard project includes a minor rehab of a couple of bays at Callowhill which will store the PCC's for 15 and about a dozen K's for 10 until a decision on the 'new' Callowhill is made. While many 10's deadhead in and out as 36's and others to avoid the long dead pull-in/pull-out (and keep in mind that these so-called 'depot' cars are actually in service, so one can ride the diversion route if one figures out when the 10's using the diversion are running!), the running time from Elmwood to 40th and Girard, where the 15's would go into service, is roughly the running time for a one-way trip on 15. Thus, operators would spend probably a quarter to a fifth of their paid time on pull-ins/pull-outs. This gets complicated by plans to replace the 40th St bridge over Amtrak in the near future, which would lengthen the 'diversion' even more.
Some plans were in the works for a new light rail storage facility in the vicinity of Belmont & Girard, but I haven't heard talk about it lately.
One little thing. When the PCC's are rebuilt by Brookville, they won't be PCC's any more. They will be be LRV's in PCC shells. Expect to see them with B2 trucks, but with LRV wheels. Only the B2 frames (or possibly B3's) will be used, no PCC control equipment.
They will look like PCC's, but there won't be that PCC sound.
I would definitely like to see what the rehabbed "PCC's" will look like. That will be intersting to see and ride, an LRV in PCC clothing.
I'm sure it will. I doubt SEPTA would spend all that money to rebuild 15 as a trolley line and then go back to buses again. They've already sent five PCC's out for rebuilding and Brookville has the contract to rebuild 18-26 PCC's.
I think it's a good idea that SEPTA chose to rebuild PCC's as opposed to purchasing new LRV's for 15. As much as I like a new LRV -Siemens's Combino is pretty nice - buying a small number of them is expensive. At least this way, when the K-cars need to be replaced in 15 years or so, SEPTA can place a large order of new LRV's for the Subway-Surface and Girard lines. I know I'm looking forward to riding the rebuilt PCC's on Girard Avenue.
Hopefully SEPTA will buy some articulated LRVs when the time comes!
Mark
I hope so too. The Subway-Surface lines are bursting at the seems. Maybe something along the lines of the Kinki-Sharyo cars used on NJT's Hudson-Bergen line or maybe Siemens's Combino. I think the Combino would be a natural for the Subway-Surface lines.
P.S. Also on the all-surface lines.
You mean the 101 and 102? If so, those would need double-end cars, the Subway-Surface use single end.
As far as articulated trolleys", doesn't Baltimore have those? They look weird. (No offense to MTA Central Light Rail Line riders, fans, and any Baltimore residents on the board.)
Baltimore has articulated LRV's.
two articulated sets coupled together
Actually, I meant 15 (definitely) and 23 and 56 (hopefully), but yes, let's include 101 and 102 as well. I think SEPTA's next purchase of LRV's should all be double-ended. You never know when you might need to reverse a trolley in an emergency.
I agree with that. However, I don't understand why the 101/102 cars use pantographs. None of the Subway-Surface cars do, and neither do the PCCs.
Look at the overhead. When routes 101/102 were redone at the time the new Kawasaki cars were delivered the overhead was rehabbed and redesigned, eliminating the troublesome trolley frogs and thereby requiring pantograph operation. Using pans also eliminates the risks associated with dewirement, which is more of an issue at the speeds attained on those routes than it would be on the subway-surface lines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The reason I heard in 1992 was to eliminate operators getting hit when changing ends in Media, the only place that terminated in the street.
I'm not sure this is the true reason, but knowing SEPTA, it just might have been.
As to dewirements at speed, all Red Arrow cars were equipped with retrievers rather than catchers. A dewirement at speed with a retriever the pole is pulled down very quickly. Reseting a pole when using a retriever can be somewhat dangerous, as attempting to pull the rope out can sometimes have the retriever pull it (and your arm) back in. The rope had to be pulled out slowly and carefully to prevent any backlash.
Not a problem in the pre-auto world, but rather hadzardous when changing poles with careless drivers wizzing by.
What I'd like to know is why the Subway-Surface LRV's and PCC's don't use pantographs. Trolley poles seem to be more prone to dewiring. When I rode on a Route 23 fantrip five years ago, the PCC kept dewiring, at least three times. I hope that doesn't happen when the rehabbed PCC's return to Girard Avenue.
The reason the City Division don't use pantographs on their cars is that the curves are too tight (on the street, and in the subway) to make the use of pantographs pratical. Also some of the switching and signal systems cannot accomondate pantographs. On the suburban division, the curves tend to be somewhat wide and sweeping (like on the 102 at Springfield Rd), and that makes pantograph more pratical
Ah, that does make sense. I suppose the area where 15 wraps around the old Girard College is one of those tight curve areas, so I suppose the rehabbed PCCs will still have trolley poles. I guess the curves on Boston's Green Line are more forgiving than SEPTA's are, because Boston's LRVs use pantographs.
Boston and Baltimore both. I typically associate pantographs with railroads. Amtrak, SEPTA Regional Rail, NJT commuter rail, MBTA, MARC... I wonder which of NY's two railroads uses what kind of power: Diesel or Electric. I only know of the third rail pick-up near Penn Station/Grand Central Terminal
Back to the 15, though. I wonder if they'll still run it 24 hours once the trolleys arrive. I also wonder if pantographs would be possible on the 56.
I'd like to see some aticulated LRVs like the ones in Toronto, stictly from a railfan point of view, but I think it's more important to have something that has low-floors or is otherwise handicapped-accessible, in practical terms. NJT's Kinki-Sharyo's fit that description, don't they?
Mark
Yes, they do. So do Siemens's Combino and Alstom's Citadis. All would be right at home on Philly's trolley lines.
Just got back online after three days off and I want to tell you I hope you sent that jingle to the rest of the rail fans. It was a real gas. I laughed my sides sore. Of course, not all Chinese restaurants do that, probably not many any more, but is was real good for a laugh. I hope those railfannners of Chinese descent did not take it too seriously. We all can use a laugh at our expense sometimes. I'm always on the lookout for Italian jokes myself.
Glad you enjoyed... I sent it to a few selected ones who I felt would appreciate it... just looked at the list and realized I forgot to send it to Selkirk so will do so now, he'll get a laugh if he hasn't already seen it.
And if anyone's curious about it, email me direct, I'll not post the link here but I'll be glad to share offline.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Chinese Lantern," Rte 9 Poughkeepsie. :)
57th/6th and Lex/63rd (and presumably others) already have the new platform signs up for the Sept. 8th service change:
To Avenue X, Brooklyn
via 6 Av Local
For Coney Is, take (W) at 34 St
I think one of the signs near the north end of the platform at 57/6 had "Culver Local" in place of "6 Av Local", but I was reading this from an accelerating train - didn't have time to double-check. :)
New W signs at Pacific as well.
New Q local signs along the Brighton.
Also at Queensboro Plaza lower level.
They're up all over on the F.
The 2 line along White Plains Road also has new platform signs as well. They look just like the pre-9/11 signs.
(2) via 7 Av Express
Late nights
all local stops
Confirmed. These signs are also up along the Nostrand Ave part of the line as well.
So are we going to see the 2 going back to express and the 3 going back to Brooklyn a week early, or is it still going to be Sept. 15? Last Saturday, the 31st, I saw two TA workers putting on the new signs and one of them said, "Next week."
9-15 is when everything return to normal operation. Right now, the #1 trains that terminates at Chambers are sent through the loop as test trains. From what Im hearing alot of crews are feeling weird after not being down there for almost a year.
PS: I see the downtown side at Fulton have the 3 train platform signs up. At 14St downtown local track, there is a platform revealing the old 1/9 to South Ferry all times. By next week, most of the signs should be up.
11 more days to go................
At 14St downtown local track, there is a platform revealing the old 1/9 to South Ferry all times.
I don't think that sign was ever covered up to begin with. I saw it about a month ago.
What they have done is bolt a new sign over the old sign. Notice the bolts. Permanent signs have no bolts except where the bracket to the ceiling is located. They did the same at DeKalb and F stations.
When trhe service changes back the remove the bolted on overlay and the sign is changed. Another way to tell- the overlays are of different gloss levels -ie non-gloss, matte finish vs the glossy portion where it shows F ro 1, etc.
Before any one asks- This can be seen from the platform. I did not and remind others that climbing the signs is not a safe practice. Look at a station with no changes and then look at one with recent temporary changes.good example- W 4 on the Upper level Express track Northbound) vs Southbound DeKalb .
9-15 is when everything return to normal operation. Right now, the #1 trains that terminates at Chambers are sent through the loop as test trains. From what Im hearing alot of crews are feeling weird after not being down there for almost a year.
PS: I see the downtown side at Fulton have the 3 train platform signs up. At 14St downtown local track, there is a platform sign revealing the old 1/9 to South Ferry all times. By next week, most of the signs should be up.
11 more days to go................
I wonder how many people here are willing including David P. to created a super L.I.R.R Section, with a history, a complete Station to Station Section, possibly track maps and yard maps, abandoned stations, and sections. I say some of us should get together, make a plan v.i.a. e-mails then set out each of us for a line by line detailed, With pictures from the platforms, we can give great photos, and give people who've never ridden or will ride the Long Island Railroad something to look at.
ok... ill get babylon/montauk
Much of that material is available on various LIRR web sites.
There's no need for that --- go check out Sub-talker Bob Andersen's site
www.lirrhistory.com.
thene e-mail him ---- maybe he'd be willing to expand his site with anything you have that he doesn't already display.
I like the idea. I have already done a Port Washington Line page for Forgotten NY and I'd like to se one for every line in nycsubway.org.
It should be mentioned that Bob Andersen does a stellar job chronicling the LIRR on lirrhistory.com.
www.forgotten-ny.com
They have constructed a new double-track bridge to cross over the BQE. Why would they spend soooo much money on a new alignment and build a double-track bridge for a frieght line that is lightly used. Is something planned to head over Hellgate Bridge to/from Queens? All through the years there was only one track and honestly, I've only seen one train go by their in my life...a Conrail maybe 10-15 years ago. I'm sure many more pass but I have only seen the one. I can see it all the time when riding the #7 WB just before 69th Street.
That's part of the Bay Ridge line for the NY&A. All new NYCT "subway coaches" goes by there to Fresh Pond.
I notice along the BQE that hill and the one by the LIE and BQE interchange are in the process of being removed.
I figured that. But why renovate it to make it look like a new line or something? Unless the NY&A wanted a new double track line for whatever reason.
Probably was part of the deal to get the realignment necessary to do the BQE work. That part of the BQE was in desparate need of reconstruction, expecially the split to LGA/Triboro.
Actually train traffic over the line, known as the CSX Fremont Industrial, has increased, with CSX local Y-101 running the line daily, along with CP Train 274/275, which delivers fresh R-142s and M-7s onto the MTA property coming Monday thru Friday as needed, and Providence & Worcester's April-October
"Stone Train", which hauls stone loads, primarily ballast loads for MTA, and fresh stone for Prima Asphalt in Holtsville, L.I., and comes about 3 or 4 times a week. Y-101 can been seen northbound over the line between 10:30am - 2pm, though sometimes it can leave the Pond later. CP 274 arrives at the Pond around 4am normally, but the last few weeks its been coming at 4pm, delivering fresh new M-7s for LIRR and R-142s for NYCT. CP 275 leaves the Pond normally at 4:45pm, but leaves usually the next day or late the same night if it arrives during the afternoon. The Stone Train comes mainly around 1am, and usually is hauling up to 110 stone loads, some of which are LIRR ballast hoppers with fresh ballast for LIRR Track Dept.
The new bridge is double track designed because the majority of the right of way is designed for two tracks, and not to mention if the city and state ever decide to go ahead with a New York Bay rail freight tunnel from Greenville, NJ to Bay Ridge, this line could have the possibility to become a much busier North-South freight artery for CSX, and even for CP who has been given operating and management rights to the Bay Ridge-65th freight yards. The freight increase that could come with the opening of this tunnel, which the city and state are pushing for, could warrant the second track to be built. Although for this to happen the line is in need of some serious repairs, because much of it is heavily neglected, especially Fresh Pond to Bay Ridge, and is in need of a whole new signal system to accomodate any traffic increases this tunnel could provide if built.
Actually train traffic over the line, known as the CSX Fremont Industrial, has increased, with CSX local Y-101 running the line daily, along with CP Train 274/275, which delivers fresh R-142s and M-7s onto the MTA property coming Monday thru Friday as needed, and Providence & Worcester's April-October
"Stone Train", which hauls stone loads, primarily ballast loads for MTA, and fresh stone for Prima Asphalt in Holtsville, L.I., and comes about 3 or 4 times a week.
I was very pleased to see new hopper cars at Prima last Friday when I was heading to Medford. The cars they'd been using were graffitied absolutely beyond belief. Of course, the new ones will probably be defaced soon enough.
I few questiong about the Sept. March OF Dimes Steeplecab triplex fantrip. Is the steeplecab diesel? Also, what is the entire trip itinerary?
I have been trying to find that out myself
It's this huge guy :)
As for the routes, you'll know soon. BMTman and I are going to Branford during the week, maybe we can get the itinerary out of the guy running the trip, assuming we see him....
-Stef
>>Is the steeplecab diesel?<<
No, it runs on 600 volts. 100% electric.
Bill "Newkirk"
I went out today with a friend from Chicago to railfan BOS area commuter rail lines. it being a holiday weekend, there were no trains, and no freights, which made it very boring. We walked from my house via the Mass Ave Trolley Yard to West Medford where we snapped pics of the Downeaster running with two Genesises, also the commuter train which ran AHEAD of it result in the Downeaster running at restricted speeds. It also meant that we missed the train we hoped to get downtown on, so we had to take a boose. Then I had to go run some errands but we saw #449 leave BOS Union Sta. Tomorrow we will go to Ayer to check out the intermodal yard, if anyone wants to come give us a yell. I'll check this board before I leave at around 11am tomorrow.
AEM7
The time is Labor Day Monday, meet 11.50am at Porter Sq Sta. on the Commuter Rail level by the Citizens Bank machine. We're going to Ayer to check out the freight yard. Anyone want to come should follow-up the message to this board so we know you're coming. I'm a short Chinese person in my 20s and I'll be with a tall thin bald white person in his 40s.
AEM7
Count me in Ill be there Im 6'1 short hair and glases.
Thats accross form the collectors booth correct? Stevie
Yes, that's across from the collectors booth. We may not go to Ayer today, might go somewhere else instead -- it's rainy out, and the Ayer Yard could be difficult to access in the rain. Given that you're coming though, I'm inclined to override John (the other person coming) and say that the yard would be fun despite the rain.
We might be slightly late -- my Chicago friend called and told me to get on the 11.15 inbound. But we'll come back out on the transit and come to fetch you at 11.50. See you at 11.50.
AEM7
AEM7 SORRY I got caught up at work my relief never showed up sorry. Click on my name and Emai me . Stevie
heh, it's OK. It rained we decided not to go to Ayer. We waited for you until the Fitchburg train left and figured that if you showed up after the train left, the trip would be off anyways.
My friend dragged me to Plymouth. We did a out and back trip. He's still out there riding the Franklin/495 shuttle but I'd had enough for the day. heh.
AEM7
I have been mostly off the internet for the past four weeks due to illness, and also massive computer failure. I was here part of the time, but was unable to post, send or receive email.
I would appreciate it if anyone might have emailed me during the last month, and didn't get a response, to please resend. I evidently did not get your message because my Outlook Express was crashing and wiping out everything before I could read it.
My computer just returned from iMac Hospital yesterday, and some semblance of operation seems to have been restored.
Karl, glad you're back... hope you're feeling better. Did they upgrade your iMac to OS X while it was in intensive care?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hopefully, they replaced the buggy ROM on the early iMacs with a later version. heh.
We have one of the first iMacs, produced four years ago. It was originally OS 8.0. It has been upgraded over the years to OS 9.1.
It is technically my wife's, and they tell her that it can't be upgraded to OS X.
I wonder if they are trying to sell her a new unit.
OS X is very different to OS 9.1. Unless you have a specific reason to go to OSX, there is no reason to change. Because of the differences in design, it is possible that OSX will not support some of the older Apple CPUs. Check Apple's website, it will tell you what kind of CPU is supported by OSX. Each type of CPU and each type of architecture needs a different "kernel", and the appropriate OSX kernel may not have been made available. However, I am surprised by what you said given that iMac is comparatively recent. I would find their story more believable if we were talking about a first-generation PowerPC (e.g. PowerPC 6100, 7200 etc). I'm guessing, but G3 upwards should be OSX compatible.
AEM7
My wife and I are both computer ignorant, and have been relying on our nephew for tech help. He seems to be a computer whiz, and was the one who recommended we get this four years ago. He got an OS X some time back, and told us when he upgraded us to 9.1, that we couldn't go to X.
The Apple dealer telling us the same thing last week just seemed to confirm it.
We were very impressed with our nephew's new unit, because he didn't even seem to have that fan noise, which does get to be annoying at times.
I'm not sure if you couldn't install OSX on that old iMac, but I wouldn't. I've seen someone run it on one of the older iMacs, and IMHO the slowness is unaccceptable.
Arti
Get a new computer and throw that junk away. Get Dell, its the best and cheaper.
Heretic! As a practitioner of the one true computer faith and proud owner of six Macs, I encourage Karl to stay faithful to the best. I'm stuck with Micros**t Windoze and all its problems at the office and I probably wouldn't spend any time on this board if I had to deal with all those headaches at home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Karl "B"
We wondered what happened to you at "My Place" for the past few weeks - as you hand'nt posted and we have been very busy with lots of posters who rode things like the NYW&B and transit things around in the 30's and 40's NY City. Plus some great photos posted. Big Ed D has been a daily regular there too
Of course, if you log back on you can look that stuff up---contact me by private email if you need to "bookmark" our NYCTMG Forum so you can jump back into it. You are still a member on our boards.
We even had Karl "M" and Karl "A" (aka Corky) posting --so we missed the Karl "B".
Like some one else posted --get rid of that "'49 Nash smokemobile" computer and upgrade to something new - and DELL is a great brand.
If you can get back to our group, log in and say hello - or I will email you the link to click on to to get back in and bookmark it in a file on your end. You got a lot of interesting stuff to catch up on there.
regards - Joe
Joseph Frank
Webmaster - NYC Transit Modelers Group
BMT El Gate motor # 620 heads a BMT El Local train into Local station on a Brooklyn El
I got to see the new MTH add-on sets for both the R-17 and R-21 subway sets at my dealer yesterday. They apparently just came out this week, and I got to see them up close.
The R-17's are numbered 6500 & 6899. The R-21's are numbered 7050 & 7299.
I met the set's buyer who told me that he understood that these add-on sets are going to be very scarce, because many buyers who got the add-on sets, only bought them, and not the original four car sets. He feels that this will make the add-on sets very scarce.
Is anyone else aware of this possible problem?
Glad you made it back, Karl.... The first R-21 Add-ons made it to E-bay. I didn't see what the final price was but from the early bidding you'd think they were painted by Rembrandt.
Hi, Karl. I don't know about the future collectibility of the add-on sets. BUT, I can tell you that the add-ons will be snapped up by transit buffs far and wide considering that many will probably purchase them to be used solely as display models. I know a number of guys who are going to do just that.
The folks who already have the four-cars sets MIGHT go and get the add-ons if only to make an authentic 10-car train. However, they don't have as much as an incentive since they got the more valuable powered unit sets in the first go-round from MTH. It certainly will be interesting to see who the add-ons will appeal to once the 'dust settles'.
The big item I'm waiting for is the Corgi Classics release of the GMC NYCTA 'New Look' bus in the familiar light blue/dark blue scheme of the mid 70's early 80's. I have two on order at model RR dealer.
If you had to rate how cool or uncool each type of vandalism is, how would you rate them comparative to one another? The scale is from -3 to 3, with -3 being really uncool, really stupid, and perpetrator should be jailed, and with 3 being really cool, and that the vandal is really doing a public service by breaking up a monotone and bringing a little variety to life. 0 would be neutral, with the vandalism not detracting nor adding to the railroad. For instance, here's a set of commonly seen vandalisms, with my rating of how cool or uncool I thought they were:
-3 Stack up stuff on the ROW in an attempt to derail trains
-3 Hurl objects at moving trains
-3 Mess with switches to try to derail trains
-2 Put coins on rails to try to make flat pennies
-2 Cut up seats on trains
-2 Paintball moving trains
-2 Burn back of seats on trains with a lighter
-2 Racist tags
-1 Scratchitti
-1 Stylized signature (tags) with marker pens on trains
-1 Tags with spray paint can on new passenger rolling stock or motive power
0 "Mike woz here" type tags with names and dates
1 Footprints in paving, done properly (so that it looks as if it has been endorsed rather than just random).
1 Detailed rendering of a specific logo (beyond just a "tag")
1 "Helen loves Andy forever" type tags
1 Humorous tags, such as "Are we there yet?"
1 Detailed drawings (non-obscene) done with marker pen
2 Colorful lettering or mural with spray paint cans on old freight cars
2 Tags with a message that provokes thought
2 Love poems or other poems/songs written with a marker
2 Lipstick kisses on random parts of station or trains
2 Paint handprint with corresponding endorsement (e.g. name date and location) on say an old freight car or a derelict building
3 Large scale beautiful murals that depict a particular message (you see these rarely, but there are some).
Any more to add? Any comments?
AEM7
2 Switching rollsigns for fun
2 Kicking in vents
3 Kicking in cab doors
6 Tagging the personal property of vandals
6 Tagging the personal property of vandals
That's kind of hard, although I would be very amused to see a newspaper report that had that kind of story -- you know, imagines the subheadline: "VANDAL TAGGED BY SWIFTER VANDALS"... "Albany N.Y. -- Today a known vandal got a taste of his own medicine when a rival gang of vandals spotted him vandalizing a toilet in a downtown bar. Taking advantage of his drunken stuptor, they held him down to the floor and wrote all over his body with a permanent marker... The police were called to the disturbance but no one was arrested since the tagging of body parts was apparently not a crime under New York State law, and there was allegedly no actual bodily harm..."
Reminds me of some vandalism I've seen recently. Apparently college vandalism is a little humorous, especially at the right college (Carnegie Mellon).
One is of the common "In case of fire, do not use elevator" sign. Someone scribbled in "use water, duh!". On another one of those signs on a different floor, someone crossed out the word 'fire' and wrote in 'hurry', since the elevators are really damn slow.
I agree, not all vandalism is bad or for the sole purpose of defacing property, some of it is good comic relief to what could otherwise be a lousy day.
Or, one seen in a street railway loop restroom: "Do NOT throw cigarette butts in toilet". Added remark: "It makes them soggy and hard to light".
Ok, this one for the us Sea Beach folks...
If any one wants to write to me and tell step by step how to link, I would be most appreciative. Better yet, there must be a way to just upload the picture into this message...that would be better for me, then I don't have to resize or bring down the resolution...
I actually have a lot of pics to share, so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks & enjoy
Jonathan
http://members.aol.com/jsyee53/myhomepage/r32%203570%20sky%20for%20subtalk.jpg
Regardless of how you choo-choo-choose (ON-TOPIC!) to put up your photos, they're going to have to be on a webserver somewhere.
LINKING:
<A HREF="url">Text</A>
replace url with the address (keep the quotes) and text with the text of the link.
EMBEDDING:
This way the photo will be inside the page itself:
<IMG SRC="url">
Ok let me try.
Your test failed. I really enjoy the red X.
lol........for some reason I cannot embed photos here. Maybe Im doing something wrong.
YOU SUCCEEDED!
But you put in the URL not to the picture, but to the webpage that the picture is on. You should go to that page, and select the VIEW FULL SIZE link underneath the pic. Then use the URL to that.
Try again. Just type [IMG SRC="link"] and replace the word link with the actual link (keeping the quotes), and change the [ ] to < >
For some reason I can see it in the preview but when I Post the message thats when it goes away. The red x shows up
You put a space between SRC and =, but the big problem is that I think webshots doesn't support remote loading of images (posting images on other websites) I copied the URL from the image properties and pasted it to the address bar and it navigated to the page successfully.
When I went back, the picture was there since it was already in my browser cache.
Hmmmmmm. I think Im gonna try putting the photo somewhere else and see what happens. You are being a great help and I thank you for that
Bingo!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you recall where the shot was taken?
like this ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, you got it right!!
Nice pic, though it's hard to see what station it see. Any idea what? I'm assuming you were on an island platform.
If it's one of the stations that the N went on, it's gotta be Stillwell. It has no ceiling over the platform.
...fair is fair:
Several posters, including myself, have occasionally flipped off about how silly the MTA was to have purchased the R38's from St. Louis Car Co, instead of simply copying the R32 order, from Budd. After all, as previously discussed, the 38's may indeed be retired before the 32's, due to their physical shape.
However, just out of curiousity, I checked out the site today, fully expecting to see the R32's with a much higher MDBF rating. I was quite surprised to find the opposite results, which are pasted below.
R32 MDBF
Date Mean Distance
Between Failure (Miles)
05/1994 45385
06/1997 66411
07/1997 61151
12 Months Ending 07/1997 81942
12 Months Ending 11/1999 69578
12 Months Ending 12/2001 104188
R38 MDBF
Date Mean Distance
Between Failure (Miles)
05/1994 67271
06/1997 80009
07/1997 57476
12 Months Ending 07/1997 93758
12 Months Ending 11/1999 70653
12 Months Ending 12/2001 122033
Only once in the last eight years have the R32's been documented to perform more reliably than the R38's. Even then, the difference was smaller than in quite a few of the other years, when the R38's did much better.
Does the above at least mitigate the difference in the physical quality of the cars themselves, in terms of which class is more valuable to the system? Am I missing something?
MDBF is a good but not perfect measurement of mechanical reliability. It is the total miles travelled in a given time period divded by the number of mechanical failures in the same period. Since the miles are probably estimated based on estimated scheduled car miles (NYCTA cars do not have hubometers), MDBF is not 100% accurate. Normally, the brake, door, and propulsion systems cause the greatest number of mechanical failures on MU electric cars. The car body condition is not a major contributor to mechanical failure. Keep in mind that since the R38 carbodies are not all stainless steel, the bodies are probably suffering more metal fatigue than a 100% stainless steel carbody like the R32s. Just look at the corrosion spots on the R38 roofs and you'll see what I mean.
Thanks - I understand everything you said. Yes, all the R38 roofs I've seen were either terribly rusted, or painted over. I was just expressing my surprise that they appeared to have better mechanical records based on the numbers I pasted. I realize that the physcial state of the carbody is separate fromt the mechanical state of the car. However, I did not expect to find any data in the R38's favor.
I also did not realize that the miles were not measured exactly.
"Keep in mind that since the R38 carbodies are not all stainless steel, the bodies are probably suffering more metal fatigue than a 100% stainless steel carbody like the R32s."
Just to clarify, a given unit of commercially used stainless steel (such as 304, 304L, 316, 316L) is weaker than a given unit of carbon steel. In other words, to span a given distance, a beam of stainless must be more substantial than regular carbon steel beam. Stainless steel is also less structurally sound in other aspects. Stainless has a significantly higher coefficient of thermal expansion than carbon steel (0.000116 in./ft.*F deg versus 0.0000842 in./ft.*F deg, respectively), meaning that for a given temperature change, stainless steel is going to expand and contract a greater distance. Cyclic thermal expansion and contraction are a major cause of metal failure.
"Just look at the corrosion spots on the R38 roofs and you'll see what I mean."
You are completely correct here. Stainless has the benefit of corrosion resistance. Corrosion is probably the most significant cause of metal failure.
So you see, it is a tradeoff. You must balance structural strength, thermal movement, and cost (a unit mass of stainless is roughly three times as expensive as carbon steel) with corrosion resistance.
Matt
That's unfortunate. A stainless steel bridge would be quite a sight!
And quite expensive to build!
Well, even with high MDBFs, if a car is about to fall apart due to rust then it simply can't be kept in service.
I dont know much about NYCTA but do I remember right that there was something Train Dude said about R-38's having been through a GOH and had their braking systems rebuilt and are now one of the most reliable?
Where did you find these MDBF information -- on this site? Where?
A car may be more expensive to maintain than a cheaper to maintain car with a lower MDBF, so that the maintenance cost per MDBF might be lower in the cheaper-to-maintain car. It's like comparing a combat jet to a cargo jet -- the combat jet will almost always work, but it's really maintenance intensive, while the cargo jet will sometimes be out of service, but it's much more cost effective.
And anyway, a veh failure in an entire set really doesn't matter that much, because the other cars will drag it along. A few percentage difference in veh MDBF probably doesn't make much difference -- by the time the set hits the shops, both sets probably have run similar mileage, just with the R-32 car failing (statistically) slightly earlier.
I'm still confused about the whole veh MDBF versus trainset MDBF thing. Does some one want to explain that again? I went through this one time (see archives) and only had Stephen Bauman tell me I am wrong without really explaining why.
AEM7
The MDBF ratings were from this site, on the respective R32 and R38 pages. Good points.
What we may be missing is factoring in the size of the fleets.
The R32 fleet is 3 times the size of R38 fleet - 600 cars vs. 200 cars - so the chances of something going wrong on the significantly larger R32 fleet are greater.
True enough.
two other questions are all R38's at one shop? and is there an mdbf differential between R32's as to which GOH group?
I think the R38s are at both Pitkin and 207th.
If you've read these following Service Advisories and rode A D and E line today or yesterday, you can see the difference
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/35_ese.pdf
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnd.htm
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvnc.htm
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvna.htm
Apparently, the E runs between 2nd Ave and Queens Plaza, Not West 4. Local Service on the 8Ave was beyond southbound West 4 was replaced by D (which terminate at WTC E platform not chamber street A platform). C service on both directions is suspended entirely and was replaced by A to Queens.
I rode it and seen it. :)
>>>>replaced by A to Queens<<<<
replaced by A to/from Queens
So what ran local on CPW -- the A, the D, or both?
i think its obvious that both the A and D ran local on CPW since the track after 59th needed to be worked on plus the section around 86th st on the downtown express track.
No, it's not obvious. Neither work area is on the NB express track, and I don't know if work was going on that weekend on the SB express track either.
Hello Dave; This photo IS NOT ON 3rd Ave. El at Gun Hill Road Station !!
ACTUAL LOCATION DATA:
This photo was taken in 1964 looking north from the south end of the easterly (or northbound) local track of the Van Cortlandt Park - 242nd street terminal of the # 1 Broadway El Line. The station has 2 tracks, and one island platform and two outside platforms. Last RUN of IRT Low-V Subway cars on mainline IRT (except for 3rd ave El. only til Nov. 1969)
The photo is looking north under the then fairly recently newly built overhead crew room and tower which spans both tracks and 3 platforms at their south end. To the right of generally unused right platform would be Van Cortland Park, Bronx.
BTW - I rode that train with that sign !!
Hope the above is of use Dave ---and do remove it from the 3rd Ave EL "Gun Hill Road Station" segment.
As time permits, I will check other photos for you and offer corrections when I can
Best regards - as always, Joe
Joseph Frank
Webmaster - NYC Transit Modelers Group Forum
Co-Founder - NYC Model Transit Association
Ah, you've returned Joe.
The pain of the '60s. The decade started with the end of the SIRT cars and the Multis, rolled right along with the mainline Lo-Vs and the Triplexes. by the moon landing or so we lost the rest of the Standards, the 3rd Avenue L Lo-Vs and the Qs.
Redbird City.
NICE Catch, Joe!!
Is there any webpages with the history of Boston suburban trains with photos?
Thank you.
The only one that comes to mind is NETansit@Aol.Comm
Also you can try searching under Boston & Maine Railroad
,Boston & Albany railroad,NERHS, or Boston St Ry Assn (BSRA). Stevie
I boarded an uptown #3 express yesterday at the 14th Street/Broadway terminal (on the downtown local track). When the interlocking signal cleared for the train to leave the terminal, it showed Green over Yellow (as expected) with an illuminated "3" under the Green. Does this mean the obvious -- "3 train"? If so, is there any other interlocking signal that displays its line name?
I think it might mean the track number...I can't verify this (uptown express track being 3 Track).
That would make sense too... if that's the case, I wonder if there are any other such illuminated signals which explicitly state the track number to which the interlocking is set.
There is one at 168 on the IND -uptown "express track" showing track number .(Express is in quotes because the expresss is on what is normally considewred the local track.
I know of two other locations, but they are both inside Yard limits - one at 240 yard and the other at Livonia. the Home signals at the yard heads illuminate the track number that is lined-up.
Main Street.
Just was wondering how long will this ride be? I went on the Nostalgia Train on the 25th of August and I have to say it wasn't long at all. I got my tickets for the Steeple last week and cant wait for this one. I here that there will be many great photo opptions.
That trip was run by the TA Museum, this trip run by the guys from SubDivision C will be MUCH MUCH longer. Think of it we will be visiting East NY and CI Yards, the trip between the two should take an hour or two just to start off not counting the time in the yards.
I do not think you will be disapointed.
I was on the last MOD trip 8/26/01. It started out at 10:30 AM at Chambers St. (J) --went to Metropolitan Ave and return. Then out to SBK yards for photos, and lunch/bathroom break at Costco. Returned to Fulton Street at 6;30. Didn't get back to Chambers because of bad motor.
Therefore the trip was about 8 hours. Be prepared for a long day.
As long as we are going to see alot places, then I will be prepared for a long great day.
Someone said that starting 9/1 trains would go back to South Ferry with no passengers south of Chambers, and that the 3 would go back to New Lots. Since nobody's talking about this, I'm assuming it didn't happen, but I just thought I'd make sure.
The changes on the 1/9, 2, and 3 take place on 9/15 as far passengers are concerned.
Until then, when the new tracks are opened, #1 trains will loop at South Ferry during times that they don't go to Brooklyn.
I thought that TA was going to rebuild or remove the loop at South Ferry. Are they or not?
The current work (FEMA-financed) is to repair the 9/11 damage. South Ferry wasn't damaged, it's just been out of use because it was inaccessible. The plan to replace it with a terminal station is for later.
It's scheduled for September 15th.
I'm back home in England after my vacation in Colorado, and wanted to share a couple of things with the list.
The best railfan window view in the world has to be the Pikes Peak Cog Railway! I had the good luck to get reservations near the front of the train for the downhill trip, and the views are amazing.
And the Cumbres and Toltec took my breath away -- it has to be the finest preserved steam railway anywhere. I went on the Durango and Silverton too, and enjoyed it, but it has a more "commercial" feel about it. The C&T had a much higher % of railfans, and smaller % of tourists, among the passengers. I know it's a long way from New York, but do make every effort to ride both the C&T and the D&S.
I also covered the Georgetown Loop, and the Denver LRT in its entirety. Not the Royal Gorge, though (had to leave something for another time!)
Fytton.
Ah yes, Pike's Peak is absolutely amazing, even if it uses modern equipment, unlike Mount Washington.
Thanks for sharing.
Not to seem tit-for-tat, but my wife and I have toured Britain by car, and so much of the countryside is amazingly beautiful, even including those whitish dots we see everywhere, chewing up the scenery. :)
I agree that the UK is surprisingly beautiful too (given its dense population), but we can't produce any 14,000-foot mountains.
There is good railfanning for steam and/or narrow-gauge enthusiasts - the steam cog railway on Snowdon (very expensive, though) and the other narrow-gauge lines in North Wales (Talyllyn, Festiniog, Vale of Rheidol and Welshpool & Llanfair) in particular. So don't travel only by car (8-) !
I rode some of those--also beautiful. One of the great problems of many American museum=tourist operations is that they have great equipment on boring runs. I love the ride through the woods on the Branford operation, but the museum ride up at Kennebunkport was insufferable, Not only was the run boring, but when we changed ends at the end of the run, the motorman gave a long boring speech about the museum to a captive audience.
You didn't mention Great Orme--now there's something you can't do in the U.S.!
... when we changed ends at the end of the run, the motorman gave a long boring speech about the museum to a captive audience.
I'd venture to guess that could be a problem anywhere. I don't know what Seashore's protocol is, not being a member there and having just visited last year for the first time in over a quarter century, but I can say that the speech I got was quite interesting. At Branford we have some general guidelines but it's up to the operator to tell the story in an interesting way, both at the end of the line and on the car barn tour. Each one does it differently, and some may make it more interesting than others. I tailor my speech to the audience that I have for a particular trip; one comprised mainly of families with small children will get a different tour than a charter trip of senior citizens, and a trip with just a couple of railfans will be handled differently yet. And then there are the very special cases, like my favorite trip so far this year. On that trip my only passengers were a very spry woman in her eighties and her great-grandson; the great-grandson, about 10-12 years old, knew quite a bit about the history of streetcars but had never ridden one, while the grandmother had escaped the Sudetenland just before World War II and had ridden the Third Avenue cars in New York during their last years of service. Although I did impart something of the history of streetcars in general and our museum in particular, I spent much of that hour-plus tour (it was a slow day so I had more time than usual) listening to her and learning what it was like to be growing up in a world in turmoil, and what it meant to come to America as a newlywed (she and her husband, of blessed memory, were married in mid-Atlantic and had a heck of a time with immigration officials as a result) and live in freedom.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
but when we changed ends at the end of the run, the
motorman gave a long boring speech about the museum to a captive audience.
That seems to be a problem at every streetcar museum. We to do try to keep it to a minimum at BSM. Occaisionaly we do have somebody on the front end that falls in love with their own voice, so the Dispatcher will "rattle the cage". Every visitor gets our Visitor's Guide when they pay their admission, and that gives them a capsule of the info about the museum as well as info about the cars, so the short speech will be interesting tidbits about the car the visitors are riding.
Apparently, what we do seems to be working, for most visitors ride every car we are operating, plus look at the exhibits and view the 10 minute professionaly produced video.
Bear in mind that we are all humans *, and every once in a while we all screw up.
* we are assuming that SubTalk is not being viewed by Vulcans :)
* we are assuming that SubTalk is not being viewed by Vulcans :)
I wouldn't be so sure... some days I'm convinced that half the posters here are alien life forms :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Could be, but their not Vulcans. No logic to the posts.
And there's good stuff in England too!!!
The Severn Valley Railway is both a nice and a rather quick way of getting to Bridgnorth. (For those who don't know the area, you change from BR at Kidderminster (trains from both Birmingham Stations and both Worcester Stations) to SVR at Kidderminster Town next door).
As many of us know the NJT Montclair connection opens on 9/30. Included is extension of catenary through Montclair.
Some questions, since I am not a New Jersey resident:
(1) Does the new wire end at Great Notch or Little Falls?
(2) What type of consists - MUs or electric locos/coaches - will be used for Montclair trains?
(3) With the abadonment of the three inner Boonton line stations east of Montclair also scheduled, will those tracks be abandoned or will NS/CSX continue to use them?
(4) What type of substitute service is NJT planning for the 3 inner Boonton stations?
Thank you in advance to all who take the time to answer.
1. I believe the wire ends at Great Notch. Electric service will terminate at Montclair Heights, though. Eventually a station will be built at Montclair State to serve as the electric terminal and transfer to diesel service.
2. Not sure.
3. Not clear at this time.
4. They are running shuttle busses to other nearby stations.
There is a long series of threads which are an interesting read at www.railroad.net -- go to the New Jersey Railfan forum.
CG
As far as question # 1, all I can say is that Great Notch Yard will be a new sign up location for crews starting on September 30th. I don't know where the yard is in relation to the station.
Regarding question # 2, anything going to or coming from New York will have to be ALP engines with push-pull coaches because MU's cannot handle the change in voltage between the Northeast Corridor and the Morris & Essex line.
Does anyone know if the 3 Line will be by-passing any stops due to overcrowding on Eastern Pkwy? Because I was on the 3 Line last year and it was by-passing certain stops, but luckily it wasn't mines.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
If I'm not mistaken, decisions to close stations to disperse crowds are made on-the-fly by the NYPD.
David
The 3 Line does not go in to Brooklyn. This has been the norm since September 11th, 2001. It is scheduled to return to Brooklyn in the near future.
I think he meant the 1 train.
Thats what I meant, my fault.
Yesterday I worked the Beast aka the 2 line. We was ordered to bypass Eastern Pkwy-Bklyn Museum in both directions until 6pm. Also the 4s were supposed to be local in Bklyn although all the ones I seen were express. Boy did I get it on my first trip out of Flatbush. Especially at Church Ave. But those are my fellow Caribbeans so I cant complain at all.....
Well my friend, at least you kept dryer then they did :-(
Many who planed a cookout may have gone shopping or RailFanning ?
I apologize if this may have been discussed prior to my getting a computer. And I should have asked during the 2 times that we got together. But, aside from the "sentimental" aspects, what is the thrill of the Sea Beach Line? I'm talking the actual "Sea Beach" segment, once it veers off of 4th Avenue and goes down toward Coney Island (or currently 86th Street).
From the railfan standpoint, you don't see much. For the most part, you're in a "cut", all the neighborhood views are above and out of sight. There are no interesting interlockings, it's basically 4 tracks all the way down, with hardly any switches until you get to 86th street. Plus, there's no provision for express service that would actually serve Sea Beach customers. Due to its configuration, any express (the old NX) would bypass the whole Sea Beach segment completely! And as others mentioned in previous posts, the line is neglected cosmetically as well.
Lines like the Brighton Line have variety and speed. There is the cut, the ROW between the houses, and the elevated segment. There is both local and express service on weekdays. The "J" line is another interesting ride. The Manhattan segment, though old and dilapidated, has its interesting moments. And from the Williamsburgh Bridge on, you can see the world. You can even see in to peoples' bedroom windows, but that's another story... And the track configuration by Myrtle Ave is priceless. Watching a Queens bound "M" leave the local track and go across everything to get to the Myrtle Ave line practically brings tears of joy to my eyes. To me, there's nothing like that on the Sea Beach.
But, Fred, that's just me. You're entitled to your opinion. There's no offense or disrespect intended, I'm just curious to know what attracts you to the Sea Beach.
Have a happy Labour Day!
It's not really fair to compare any line to the Brighton, insofar as that gem of the system has so much variety and history.
True, the central portion of the Sea Beach does not have great interest, and I think some of that may have been spoiled in recent years by track furniture and other visual impediments.
But you have the novel right-of-way with its interplay with the LIRR between 4th Avenue and Bath Junction. You have the line past 86th suddenly opening into the p-r-o-w running past Coney Island and Stillwell Yards to the shore.
You also have some neat antiquarian stuff--the freight sidings, the old tunnel and traces of right-of-way heading towards Bay Ridge. I don't know if it's visible anymore, but I also used to like to trace the right-of-way to Sea Beach Palace, which still had traces of rail, ties, and even Coney Island Creek bridge in my time.
Allow also that the Sea Beach is a shell of itself through no fault of its own--it was one of the best express runs when it was the Sea Beach EXPRESS.
Thanks Paul, a good post. Actually what I liked about the Sea Beach as a kid was that it had all those small tunnels that we used to speed into and out. Instead of an overpass, once we got to New Utrecht, they compartmentalized four mini-tunnels at each street and that is what I fell in love with. Into a dark tunnel and out and lots and lots of them. The key was to get into a middle car because if you were in front it would stop just at the entrance to one whereas if you were in the middle or back you could be going through them at a good speed. Of course, there was the thrill of getting the railfan window when I finally wised up to what was what. I then could get an eyeball's view of the whole route in front of me. Yes, I loved the Sea Beach as a kid and still do. The problem is, however, that it is nothing like it was. That is why it so infuriates me that it is a local, in the damn rathole tunnel and doesn't even go to Coney Island anymore. I hope some of that does change.
What about bringing back the "NX"?
I always wondered what percentage of NX riders were really railfans who didn't have to take the line. I rode it as a teen just for the sake of riding it.
Apparently many NX riders were railfans. I understand its trains were hardly ever crowded. Lack of ridership was the main reason cited for its demise.
Perhaps 2 or 3 NX trains (in total for the day) should be run on Saturdays or Sundays to give railfans a nice ride. An extra fare or two could be charged on board to make the MTA a little money!
By the time I piped on the ship, that turd was long gone. But it was LEGENDARY among crews for COMPLETELY screwing up the railroad. One train managed to take out the Brighton, Sea Beach and West End as they tried to move NX's in the wrong direction past everything else. And three lines had to stop cold when a late NX finally managed to make its way through Stillwell. I've never heard of such contempt for a line out of employees, but the NX was legendary. If there as a formal funeral for the NX train, nobody showed. :)
Now I know what they mean when they say someone is throwing cold water on something that could be good. KILLJOY!!!!!!!!!
????? Unca Fred ... once again, you've got old Selkirk ALL WRONG! Tell ya what, boobe ... scope out the following map - the NX is E train blue in color. Follow it from Brighton Bits down through Stillwell and note that it made *NO* stops on the SeaBits at ALL! First stop after Stillwell was 59th where it jammed the SeaBits without offering ANY benefits at all. It was a BRIGHTON train that used the SeaBits to get to 4th avenue. For real ... check it out:
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/maps/historical/1967.gif
The NX may have been a "SeaBits Hexpress" but it was a hoser. You can apologize later. Heh. Moo.
Thanks cousin Selkirk. Since I've been getting you all wrong of late concerning trains, politics, and the like, maybe you should try to get to the city and touch base with your old pal unca Fred. It would be a blast for sure. Think you can work your way around it? There are a large number of people who are coming into New York from October 10-16 and I'm one of them.
Fred, make sure you're at Branford on the 13th... that's the best chance to hook up with the gang. Never know who you might find there :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not ready to reveal how or where, but YES, we WILL meet. Won't be in the city though, a bit beyond my means at the moment. But yes, I'll be in your face in person to give ya a good old fashioned Bronx slap. And it'll be on a Sunday so I'll be on my best behavior, if that's possible.
And oh yeah, bring along a good strong BELT. You'll need it to hold you in your seat. Unca Selkirk will be bringing handles and gloves and make you "go for a ride" like we used to do back in the Bronx to Sinatra. Watch the closing doors, please. Boowah-hahahaha. :)
Uh-oh, does that mean you'll hijack 1689 at Shoreline?:)
Hijack!? I took a train once and I didn't put it back. But no, it won't be a hijack. Think of me as a TSS. :)
So you'll have your trusty ball peen hammer with you then, right?:)
No mon, no my yob ... there is no greater sin in civil service than "working out of title" ... I've been brought up on CHARGES for doing so many times. So when I got into NABET, IATSE and some of the other moronic private sector gigs, *THEN* the ball pein hammer got applied. :)
Here's a sight I know you'll really like:
Can you picture yourself at the railfan window? You'll have to excuse the fact those are R-27/30s and not Triplexes.
He'd have to get on it on the Brighton line. The NX made *no* stops on the Sea Beach. None at all. :)
How fast was the NX? Please tell me it was faster than today's re-routed Ws running express on Sea Beach
Well, at least the final field shunt step was enabled in those days.
I too fondly remember the "long & little" tunnel before entering New Utrecht on the CI Sea Beach track...it's longer than the rest and curves...
I fondly remember riding in the first car of an R32...wind was blowing through the doors, onto my face as we sped through...
Like a roller coaster...
Folks, to enjoy Sea Beach, one must look at the bigger picture...some people here are spending too much time looking at the garbage on the tracks...that's not the way to enjoy the subway system, nor is it the way to enjoy NYC.
Thank you my Sea Beach colleague. You answered it in some ways better than I ever could. We Sea Beach fans know what's what.
And what year did the Sea Beach express quit running. I assume that it was for weekends in the summer and not a regular daily rush hour express.
Actually. I was referring to the Sea Beach Express run that made 57-TS-34-14-Canal-Pacific-36-59 then all stops to Coney. That was a fast train.
The last season of the express on the Sea Beach express tracks--the Franklin/Nassau aka Coney Island Express aka Sunny Sunday Summer Special was either 1952 or 1953, I forget which.
The NX was only for a little while in 1968.
I believe it was 1953. That was the last time I rode the #4BMT Sea Beach before I moved to California the next year. For some reason I cannot remember I never rode it in 1954, the year I moved to California that fall.
The #4 was the regular Sea Beach express: all stops from Stillwell to 59th, then express along 4th Ave. skipping DeKalb and Myrtle Ave. 24/7, over the bridge, and express along Broadway. Prior to 1957, Sea Beach trains terminated at Times Square before being extended to 57th St. By 1959, BMT standards were back on the Sea Beach.
The Sunny Summer Sunday Special or Franklin-Nassau Special was the Coney Island Express, using mostly BMT standards.
Yes that is true Steve but I'm glad I wasn't around to see the Standards put back onthe Sea Beach in 1959. To me the Sea Beach was the Triplex----but everybody already knew that.
A year or two later, weekend service was provided by R-27/30s, and by 1965 the R-32s had taken over on the N. I can still see that shiny new N train pulling into 36th St. on that memorable July 21.
I'm wearing my N shirt now, believe it or not.
For me, the Sea Beach was never boring. If you wanted to get to Downtown Brooklyn or Manhattan quick, you took the N Sea Beach, because the F Culver made all stops except during rush hours.
I used to get on at Kings Highway. Prior to 1976, 9 times out of 10, you got on an R32 which was faster than anything on the entire system. After 4 quick stops to New Utrecht, and then the long tunnel, you got to check out the Bay Ridge branch and the hope that one day you would see a freight train. I never did get to see .
After 8th Avenue, I would always wonder where those old railroad ties were going up to when we were going down into the tunnel at 4th Avenue. I finally learned where they originally went from this website.
After making 59th Street, it was express to Pacific Street and you could count on running down an R27-30 RR local. After Pacific, you did the twist and turns into DeKalb, where chances are you met up with an R27-30 M Brighton local.
After DeKalb, it was over the South side of the bridge where you got to see what was running on the B and D running on the North side of the bridge.
After Canal Street, you made the sharp right turn and you were pure Broadway Express, and you could count on running down an R16 EE or R27-30 RR local. The R32 N always won.............
That's what makes the Sea Beach Express so great. Maybe in 2004 again........
I have a small suggestion for you R-16. Why don't you add Sea Beach to your handle, something like Sea Beach R-16 or something like that. The more we Sea Beach fans expose ourselves on Subtalk the quicker the rest of the unwashed will realize that those of us to love our line have valid reason for doing so and that we are real fanatics about our train.
How about Sea Beach R16 Lover?
The first time I actually got to ride the R16 was when they were assigned to the Sea Beach for a time in 1976 - pre-arrival of the R46's.
And just how did the R-16s fare on the express runs? I've heard they were sluggish.
I probably rode the R16's on the N Express maybe two or three times max, and they did OK. Very similiar to the R27/30's which would occasionally make an appearance.
Keep in mind that the R16 was the heaviest 60 foot car in the system at the time, and they were never considered "fast."
Nothing, and I mean nothing, was as fast as the R32's......
The R-32s were peppy, that's for sure. They made the CPW express dash look easy. I always said the R-32s streaked effortlessly while the R-10s thundered and the R-1/9s hauled (howled) ass.
Sea Beach R-16 Lover sounds good to me. Take it. BTW, STEVE8AVEXP gave me my handle so maybe I can take a little credit for giving you your new one. I hope you use it.
OK - done. I've applied for Sea Beach R16 Lover - I'm just waiting on Dave to approve it.
You don't need Dave's approval for handles. Just exercise "squatter's rights" and go for it!
I have a small suggestion for you R-16. Why don't you add Sea Beach to your handle, something like Sea Beach R-16 or something like that. The more we Sea Beach fans expose ourselves on Subtalk the quicker the rest of the unwashed will realize that those of us who love our line have valid reasons for doing so and that we are real fanatics about our train.
Hey Fred! Maybe you, I, West End Jeff, and R16Lover other N Fans should get together to protest at TA headquarter and let them know that N deserves a better treatment than W. N has been existed longer than W. We're tire of TA officials dumping our N like yesterday's trash. Its time to turn the N W table.
Express M: I will be in town from October 11-16. If you or anyone else wants to do such a thing like picket or raise a little hell at the MTA HQ's count me in. A dozen of us or so would at least send a message that our train deserves a hell of a lot better treatment than it's been given. We have nothing to lose.
Well, at least its worth it.
Here is a photo of the German Maglev train to run in China in a few years: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/020813/170/212az.html&e=12&ncid=996. Just think of it as a really fast subway, or as what the 7-express should be.
--Brian
Maglev is the rail equivalent of the Wankel engine - wonderful idea on paper, total failure otherwise.
I haven't seen it fail. Where have you? In any case, we shall find out how it works in commericial service soon.
--Brian
Maglev is...total failure. Dan Lawrence
I haven't seen it fail. Where have you? Brian Doobie W
Where have we seen it succeed? (Dan and) I read about the imminent construction of commercial maglev lines before you were born. Pardon us for expressing skepticism.
I haven't seen it fail. Where have you?
That excuse for a city where I have the misfortune to live: Birmingham, UK. It was a short line reaching from International Station to the Main Terminal at BHX (but nevertheless more use than that godforsaken bus they've replaced it with).
I didn't say fail. When the Wankel engine was first introduced, it was the "best internal combustion engine ever developed, with none of the faults of the previous models". However when it went into production (Madza's RX-7 was built with it) it turned out to be a failure, with none of the promsied dependability. It was not even good as a small gas engine.
Maglev is going to wind up the same way - wondeful device with great potential that won't live up to the hype. Except for demonstration lines, nowhere is it used in a common carrier mode, plus the fact that the time line for the China construction is 5 years in the future.
We shall see. From all the facts available about it, Maglev in the urban invironment appears to be less inviting than steam powered elevated railways, and since it has to be elevated (no at ground demos exist, they're all elevated). Want that on your street? Plus either no research has been made on the effects of massive magnetic fields on the environment or on humans, or the maglev proponents are hiding it.
What's wrong with Wankel engines, other than the silly name?
The production run (in Mazda's RX-7 sports car) had almost constant compression problems due to the seals on the internal lobes waring out so fast that 3000 miles was the most the engines were good for before a total overhaul. A friend of mine bought a RX-7 with the Wankel engine - and got rid of it within 6 months.
BTW, what was the problem with the Birminham Airport MagLev? Can you give any detail?
The problem with the Maglev at BHX was spare parts. It was a very short line, designed as a one-off project, so the parts were unique and therefore very expensive. When it eventually broke down, they decided to close it rather than repair it because it would have cost too much to repair.
I've often wondered why they didn't build a sensible length line to begin with - for instance from International Station to BHX main terminal, then into Birmingham City Centre along the A45 Coventry Road (the main road out of the East of the City - it's about 7 miles from the City to the Airport) had it even been that scale, the cost of maintenance may have been less and it may have survived.
Or the death may have been prolonged and even more expensive. Big flops from the get go are remembered but sometimes cheaper than a slow hemmorage.
Or the death may have been prolonged and even more expensive.
You know Birmingham too well. The City has some of the highest taxes in the UK (£1,026 for Band D, compared to £910 for neighbouring Solihull Metropolitan Borough), a higher than average number of faulty streetlights, less than half the national average for childrens' play area facilities, the worst municipal library provision in the country, the worst municipal library content in the country, such a plebeian population that 84% of them think the libraries are adequate(!), over double the average car crime rate, over five times the average burglary rate, sexual crimes well above average, offences against the person over double average, so many people claiming Social Security that it takes three months to process a Social Security claim, a high rate of pedestrian deaths on roads, over double the national average of roads badly in need of resurfacing, double the amount of rent on local authority properties written off as uncollectable (hiding the fact that three times more than this simply isn't collected), dwellings which are in such a state that they consume huge amounts of the council's money and are so poor that it takes 76 days on average to find anyone to become a tenant in a vacant one, an education bill covering vast amounts of empty places as no-one wants to send their children to the Birmingham LEA's schools, and elections where only 28% bother to vote. With it being that much of a mess, I'm not really surprised the Maglev went, along with the guided busway on the #65 bus. All I can say is that I'll be glad to be leaving for Leicester in three weeks time.
Big flops from the get go are remembered but sometimes cheaper than a slow hemmorage.
Unfortunately, Birmingham as a city has been slowly haemmorhaging since the 1960s. This was noticed by the then Conservative City Council which got the Heath government in the early 1970s to gerrymander Sutton Coldfield (solid Conservative, very rich, with the highest proportion of owner-occupiers in the UK) into the City, partly to keep the Conservative group in power, partly to raid it for the money. It is notable that many of the public buildings in Sutton Coldfield date from 1970-1974 when it was about to be swallowed up, thus spending the money so Birmingham couldn't have it! In 1984, the social and financial decline got so bad in Birmingham that despite Sutton Coldfield the Conservatives lost power to the Labour Party, a party group associated with getting the deprived to vote for them, syphoning off the money for themselves (the Council Leader awarded himself a 112% pay rise last year - inflation was under 2%), thus causing more deprivation as they tax people more and anyone who can afford the house prices moves to Solihull, Redditch, Bromsgrove etc... If that isn't a slow haemmorhage, I don't know what is. And it's nowhere near over.
One problems with Wankel engines is that it was really difficult to mass produce one with more than two rotors. Three or more and you had to build it by hand, as was done with some of Mazda's racing engines. This was really more of a problem for performance cars, as two rotors provide enough power for a compact car, but it's somethign to note.
Mark
A worker looks at the world's first passenger train that uses magnets to propel it at speeds up to 430 kph (270 mph), in Shanghai. The German-made train will run on the first commercial rail link using magnetic levitation, a 66 km (40 mile) S-shaped link between Shanghai and its new international airport, with a test run scheduled for next year and a public launch in late 2003. Picture taken August 11, 2002. REUTERS/China Photo
Even if it only got up to 200 mph, it would cover the 40 mile run in five minutes. We are talking about a little airport commuter train here, guys, not a cross-country streamliner.
Now if they want ot run one between Chicago and New York... then I'll buy a ticket!
Elias
>>> Even if it only got up to 200 mph, it would cover the 40 mile run in five minutes. <<<
If that is the way you judge speed when driving, I am glad I do not have to ride with you. That is a 12 minute trip without slowing down at either end. Using their figures it is about a ten minute ride. Not bad for a trip from downtown to the airport, and probably a good test of maglev.
Tom
If that is the way you judge speed when driving, I am glad I do not have to ride with you.
Actually, I am a much better driver than a mathematician.
40 mi / 200 mi/hr = 0.2 hr
: )
Unless Queens double in size in the next 20 years I doubt We would see Maglev on the subways anytime soon
Geez.....wouldn't ya just love to be on that thing when an earthquake hits? :-)
In an op ed piece in this week's Time, Giuliani expresses his wish that the entire ground zero site be maintained as a memorial. I've always agreed with that assessment.
Giuliani may be thinking with his heart more than his head on this, but as former NYC mayor, he also knows that the office space can be made up elsewhere.
I just think it's too early to put anything there and proclaim business as usual.
I do think the 'transit hub' idea should be pursued and the LIRR connection should also be pursued.
But I think that ground zero shouldn't be a playground for architects who have suddenly been granted an 'opportunity' to build a grand creation. Some opportunity.
If "America's Mayor" agrees with me, maybe I'm not a total crackpot.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>If "America's Mayor" agrees with me,
maybe I'm not a total
crackpot. <<
No, its the forty-eight monkey
effect. BTW my own vision is smaller
buildings a 'campus' of same and
ABSOLUTELY the transit upgrade of
LIRR/FRA compliant (full size not just PATH)to lower Manhattan from
both Jersey and Bklyn. You are certainly correct that the square footage is not the issue--but I think buildings can be as good tombstons as empty space.
Well I know I'm the minority here but I think both 110 story towers should be rebuilt.
You might be in the minority here, but I am with you!
BUILD!
Me too! Forget 110-story towers and make them 200 stories.
I'm not sure of the size of the towers, but I want everything back:
o Jobs.
o Tax revenues.
o Shopping.
o Transportation terminal and enclosed walkway.
o Public spaces for performance and viewing, replacing the plaza and observation deck.
o Even the TV tower.
And I want it all to be better than before.
My preferred sceario includes four 60 story buildings around a central square. In the center, a TV tower rises 110 stories supported not by guy wires but flying buttresses cantilevered from the four towers, creating a cathedral like effect drawing the eye upward from the street.
In the base of the TV tower (in the shape of a Pentagon to remind people of the other place) you have the memorial to the rescue personnel that died, and those killed in 1993. Then 78 stories up you have the memorial to those who died in Tower II. Then, 91 stories up you have the memorial to those who died in Tower 1. Each memororial would have both a public room to pay respects, and a private room reserved in perpetuity to those who died and their descendents. Finally, from two of the 60 story towers you'd have a new and improved version of the Tribute in Lights, one which would begin from a point high enough not to disturb the neighbors.
Wow...cool idea, though I sill like mine better! j/k
What neigbors BTW? There are residents down there? I'ver been only to downtown twice and surprisingly have never seen apartment buildings.
There are some residential conversions in the financial district, but the big residential neighborhood is Battery Park City (TriBeCa is also nearby).
There are some residential conversions in the financial district, but the big residential neighborhood is Battery Park City
Which brings up an interesting demographic trend that may have some consequences for subway service. In the aftermath of September 11th, many families have moved out of BPC for what they perceive to be safer locations in suburbs and rural areas, to be replaced, for the most part, by single people. BPC's occupancy rate is at or near pre-attack levels but its density and therefore total population probably is lower. For example, an apartment that might have been occupied by a family of four on September 10 today may be occupied by two single roommates. This reduced population may translate into reduced demand for transit in the downtown area, especially during off-hours.
If a Californian can offer his opinion, I say build it even larger than the older ones. That will send a message to those terrorist @#$%$^&&% that we are a resilient people.
My gut tells me that I'd like to see the 110-story twin towers back with a memorial of some sort. I'd definitely would make the stairwells a lot wider and the walls around the stairs fireproof (as opposed to fire-retardant). In appearance it would probably look similar to the original twin towers.
Unfortunately, my rational mind tells me that if we built these towers again, it'll be destroyed again. There are too many people in the world that HATE the U.S. for whatever reason. We know this because there were more than a few people who were CELEBRATING when the twin towers were hit. While there were some outside the US who were in tears when they got word of the WTC disaster, others were HAPPY when they heard of this. That's the world we live in, that's our reality. If we build the towers up again, people will dedicate the rest of their lives to bring it down.
Great cities of the world will always rebuild after tragedies. Example, London after Nazi bombing, San Francisco after 1906 earthquake.
True, but none of those cases had war declared on them by terrorists during their rebuilding periods. These fools really want to destroy us (the U.S.).
True, but none of those cases had war declared on them by terrorists during their rebuilding periods.
So by this quote I assume that London was never bombed by terrorists after World War II?
Good point, I kinda forgot about that.
I remember what the first WTC bombers said in an interview, when asked about the future of the World Trade Center since it was still standing, they said something like "It's still standing, for now".
This shows that the next time someone interviews a terrorist, we should perhaps pay a little more (though not too much) attention to their veiled threats. If we pay too much attention, then they would have a field day with us.
The new buildings will have missle batteries at the top.
Come within five miles and you are gone.
They might come up with something different, like having subways blow up under the WTC to weaken the foundation of the building. Who knows?
They already tried to blow up the foundation on February 26, 1993.
It didn't work.
Unfortunately, my rational mind tells me that if we built these towers again, it'll be destroyed again.
Unfortunately, your rational mind isn't very rational.
First, if the new World Trade Center cowers in fear instead of standing in triumph, there will still be other super-tall buildings to destroy.
If there are no super tall buildings, SOMETHING will be taller than everything else around it, something will be significant enough to goad anti-American losers.
We live in the Home of the Brave. It is a grave travesty to build things that are influenced by fear. The other countries of the world hate as because they are grossly incapable of building a great society, so they choose to destroy ours for some sick form of parity.
Well Said
Let me see if I understand you on this one. You want to spend millions of dollars to build two new supertowers that 20 years from now people would probably find a new, devious way to destroy. I agree with the whole bravery sentiment. Heck, my gut probably agrees with every word you just said. I mouthed these same words immediately after the attack. But there is a line between bravery and stupidity. People JUST died in two towers we all thought would never collapse. Are you willing to put more lives at risk just to make a statement to the world? Have we become that arrogant? Sometimes the bravest thing to do is to admit defeat and learn from it. I'm not saying that Americans should admit defeat to these terrorists, but I'm saying that we should take drastic measures to make sure that this never happens to any of our other great structures, even if it means building a new scaled-down WTC.
Yes you're also correct in saying that they're would be other targets if the new WTC "cowers in fear", but we at least wouldn't be throwing time, energy and millions of dollars into what could be another disaster waiting to happen. That time, money and energy should be thrown to securing our remaining great structures.
EVERYTHING you do carries some risk of death. It is impossible to live life without without ever risking it.
I don't have a problem admitting to defeat... to a civilized country with a formidable and honorable military force. Unfortunately I believe that humans are rulers of the world and as such can NEVER admit defeat to any other members of the animal kingdom (or, in the case of 9/11, the fungus kingdom).
You know, I was wrong. It shouldn't be OK to admit defeat to civlized country, it should NEVER be OK to admit defeat. Death is more palatable than defeat. Death is a far, far better condition than to be intimidated by creatures with primitive or nonexistent brains, like the 9/11 terrorists.
Dang! I was about to jump all over you for insulting fungi everywhere. :)
You have to AT LEAST give credit to the terrorists for being eukaryotic (multicellular). Not a very successful branch in the evolution of eukaryotic organisms, but still.
Thugs is thugs regardless of their genetic entrails. They're all invited to commune with Darwin.
I don't know about that, some of our most famous competitors have admitted defeat and learned from them. Michael Jordan, as great as a basketball player he was, suffered a lot of defeats and setbacks. From these defeats, he learned to trust his teammates a little more. As a result of that, he became an even better player. Bruce Lee once had to fight three whole minutes to defeat a single opponent, which by Lee's standards was a defeat. From that defeat he was able to develop his skills to a higher level. Neither of these two would have become any better by first admitting their defeats then learning from them.
I think that this analogy could apply here, though I may be stretching it a bit. The terrorists beat our national security by being able to destroy the WTC. We must first accept defeat in that aspect. Now its our turn to become even stronger nation by first recognizing our flaws in security, then improving on them. Once that happens, then terroristic threats would be just that-threats.
Yes, I will agree with you in that regard, but one thing that we should correct is NOT to build everything underground, but to prevent our monuments from being destroyed, even if we build new ones.
Right on Fred. Rebuilding the twin towers will give those terrorists a message that they can't tread on us. Will just come right back. For Osama Bin Laden we should put up the old colonial flags all over Afghanistan that have the snake on it and the words "DON'T TREAD ON ME!"
#3 West End Jeff
Same here. I for one would like to see them built back as they are like this .
I agree with you. Anything less than was there before and the terrorists have won. It doesn't necessarily have to be exactly the way it was, but I feel some awe inspiring building should be built there.
>>Anything less than was there before and the terrorists have won.<<<
The terrorists, on September 11, did win. Their aim was to kill as many as possible to tell the world that their aims will ultimately prevail and that a government to their liking will eventually rule, by force.
I saw an article in the News the other day--I think it was by John Leo...that asked where our anger has gone. We have a lot of parades, we have a lot of bagpipes, but where's our resolve to end world terrorism, which would mean rooting out and destroying terrorist cells both in their countries of origin as well as here? Where's our resolve to make sure that terrorists never strike...or never THINK of striking again?
We seem to be back to business as usual, with too many thinking about how to rebuild ground zero, like it's some sort of building opportunity. It disgusts me, frankly. If we go back to business as usual, the "folks that did this", as W likes to say, will wait for their chance...and strike again.
Our current predicament calls for a completely different approach. I'm not a strategist...I don't know what to do. But I feel we're going about it the wrong way.
If you disturb an anthill, the ants will wander around in all directions, till they instinctively return to what they were doing before. Is that what we've done in Afghanistan? Are our enemies resettling and making plans anew?
www.forgotten-ny.com
We should direct our anger at weeding out the oil industry-backed greed mongers in our own country -- and at the highest levels of government -- that allowed the Taliban to flourish in the first place. As long as our country backs cut-throat bastards in the name of thwarting 'communism', these chickens will continue to come home to roost...
I agree, the Arab nations have way too much influence. Bringing this to a mass transit related thought, the Arabs want our cars to use more and more fuel so they have more money in their dirty pockets. But if we don't use cars as much, and use trains and buses instead, less money goes to the Bin Ladens.
...and you forgot to mention people like the Bushs and the Rockefellers. ;-)
I'm not sure it's a good idea to use an anthill analogy. j/k
In order to do tthat we have to be ready to deal with the underlying conditions which allow these terrorist activities to flourish - corruption, the enslavement of women in other countries; our own refusal to deal with our energy consumption and environment and other countries' perception that we deal unfairly in the Middle East.
It's very complicated, and not only do we sometimes like to be in denial about our own problems, but there are factors truly not within our control.
And focusing energy on rebuilding New York is very appropriate for dealing with this.
"The terrorists, on September 11, did win. Their aim was to kill as many as possible to tell the world that their aims will ultimately prevail and that a government to their liking will eventually rule, by force."
They succeeding in hitting us in a way to illustrate some of our vulnerabilities - but they've already paid a stiff price and are continuing to pay it. They can't win the war unless we give up. And we haven't given up.
"The terrorists, on September 11, did win. Their aim was to kill as many as possible to tell the world that their aims will ultimately prevail and that a government to their liking will eventually rule, by force."
They won a battle, they didn't win the war. There's a huge difference. According to you, the United States lost WWII on account of Pearl Harbor, and Britain was resoundingly defeated when it had to evacuate the continent and Dunkirk and leave Western Europe to the Germans.
Very well put Mr. Walsh.
My sentiments exactly.
I was not an admirer of the towers aestheticly. As to the terrorists winning, the FAR MORE relevant issues have to do with civil/human rights IMHO. A full implementation of the Stalinist TIPS program is a complete surrender of what I value in this country--which most days I am pround to be a citizen of. The free and open discussion here of rail topics would be as welcome in most Arab/Muslim societies as female taxi drivers. The lame "national security" clamp down on photography occasionaly reported here is SOP in other societies.
And now back to our regularly scheduled study of the minutiae of subway gistory.
Exactly. with TIPS, we can count on our mailmen, plumbers, noisy neighbors, etc to spy on us. Great. Who needs a search warrant? Due process? We can rebuild the eceonmy by building more jails and filling them with harmless photographers. :)
notice how every other country on t he planet thinks Bush 9and by default, the rest of us) have completely lost it?
if this keeps up, I'm loading some firearms and moving to the woods.
Well the towers height was what impressed me the most. Asthetically, they were just as appealing as a Hippo.
We should rebuild the towers, but better than before. The building needs to be more attractive, and have better safety systems.
I'm thinking a building like the Citic Plaza, Central Plaza, and Bank of China building. Why does China have all these great buildings??
It's time for NYC to compete with China and the world, and show who's boss.
A full implementation of the Stalinist TIPS program
Stalinism refers to a system that murdered 10s of millions of innocent civilians. The TIPS program would uncover those who want to emulate Stalin by murdering as many innocents as possible. I'm afraid you've got your labels mixed up.
So you believe that every single civil liberty that we have should be replaced by informers ratting people out who engage in "suspicious activities?"
Just like in the Soviet Union.
Since when does reporting suspicious activity result in "every single civil liberty that we have" being replaced? Kind of an extreme jump.
It's unfortunate that our government even had to contemplate "asking" its citizens to report suspicious activity. You'd think that people would want to act in the best interest of their country's safety without having to be asked to do so.
>>> when does reporting suspicious activity result in "every single civil liberty that we have" being replaced? Kind of an extreme jump <<<
It is interesting to note that the Soviet Constitution was based on the American Constitution and granted similar freedoms. The original leaders of the Soviet Union had a well founded fear of the capitalist nations, and in the name of national security turned the Soviet Union into the repressive police state it became in spite of its constitution.
Tom
I see.
Do you think that instead of having people spy on and rat out their neighbors, we cut out the middleman and just install telescreens (two-way TV) in every apartment and public and private facility?
INGSOC
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!
You mean you don't have a web-cam on top of your monitor like us LOYAL Americans? :)
Of course I don't advocate intrusive monitoring of all Americans. But you'd rather accuse me of something I didn't say rather than focus on what I did say.
If you saw someone about to commit a murder, would reporting it to the police be the actions of a spy or a rat? Of course not. Then what's wrong about reporting actions that may indeed be that of a terrorist?
Good luck renting it out.
That's right.
When Larry Silverstein the owner feels the same way,you know it's gotta be true.
I mean, wouldn't he want to make money?
Not all businessmen make the best business decisions.
If I come to own a company in the year 2010, I would gladly rent an office anywhere in a tall, proud WTC. I wouldn't even bother with a short, scared WTC.
And why not volunteer your free time in helping to rebuild it...
Well I know I'm the minority here but I think both 110 story towers should be rebuilt.
I see the point behind that idea, but my concern is that towers of that size wouldn't be rent-able, at least not quickly enough to be financially workable. Clearly, however, the transit hub should be a top priority.
Any facility built at the site won't be ready until at least 2008 or 2009. By that time, most of the irrational fears and anxiety will fade.
The original WTC had lower level offices ready for occupancy before the tower was completed.
"If you build it they will come". Just couldn't resist saying it.
I agree with you Qtraindash7, the twin towers should be rebuilt not only as a symbol, but as a tribute to those who perished on September 11, 2001. To make a statement the replacement twin towers should be 111 stories tall.
#3 West End Jeff
That's ridiculous...
No, I think it is appropriate.
#3 West End Jeff
I am all for building towers on the site, but certainly there needs to be a good size memorial as well. Did anyone see the wtc special on the Discovery Channel several weeks ago? It talks about how building more than 80 stories is not feasible, because you cannot build a a standard building. By going 30 stories higher, the wtc had an odd elevator setup, and not enough emergency exits. Also, because of the setup, there were not enough support beams in the middle of the tower, so when the plane hit, the heat and the fuel was able to go right up the tower, which led to the collapse.
My plan calls for a memorial in the center, because the victims should be at the center of attention. I also want three 80-story towers in a triangular formation, and each tower should have a fountain in front of it. At nighttime, those fountains would each be lit up in a different color (one red, one white, and the other blue), which would symbolize the patiritoism in America after 9/11. One tower also has the antenna, while another tower would have the connector bridge to the World Financial Center. I would also like to incorporate the former north and south tower footprints in my plan.
This way, the victims have a good memorial, business is restored to lower manhattan, and the skyline is restored. If anyone knows an architect who may be interested in my plan, feel free to e-mail me!
-Nick
I like the idea. The "red" building, the "blue" building and the "white" building. 80 stories is still a nice sized building (The ES building's observation deck is at 86, and that's not too shabby.) The memorial can even be incorporated in the top of one of the new towers, so the observation deck can be restored to that area, even if 30 stories lower :( but better than the talked about "60" story buildings that would not even stand out from the Financial Center, which is about that height. And maybe even a "Windows on the World" type restaurant on one of the others.
Sounds good to me..thanks for the input! -Nick
It talks about how building more than 80 stories is not feasible, because you cannot build a a standard building.
So don't build a standard building. Since the WTC was in fact built (along with 4 other buildings worldwide with 100 or more floors, and at least 2 more going up in Taipei and Hong Kong), it is feasible. Building that tall may not allow for the most economical design, but building tall skyscrapers isn't generally about economy, it's about egos, aspirations, and symbols.
It is feasible, but there hasnt been a single 100+ story tower built that was safe for all its occupants. Builders tend to sacrifice safety for accomplishment.
What the general public doesnt realize is that if a fire broke out anywhere above the 30-40 floor range, it is extremely difficult-if not impossible-to control. The only reliance is sprinklers, which are normally either broken or unreliable...but the public doesnt know that. In the time it would take a fire crew to reach a fire floor, the fire would be extremely difficult to contain. One 2-inch hose line can put out 2500 sq feet of fire...which isnt much. There is a major logistic problem just getting crews and equipment to the fire. Not to mention the evacuation difficulties for all the people above.
You can work in a high rise if you want to...but I will stay below the 30th floor.
You can work in a high rise if you want to...but I will stay below the 30th floor.
And I will not allow fear to control my life.
The 11th floor, the 30th floor, or the 130th floor, it is all the same above the 10th floor. 100' is what fire department ladders can reach. Anything above that requires that the building, like a naval vessel, be able to fight its own fires without outside help. It is possible. The building already has hundreds of maintenance employees, there is no reason not to require that they also be cross trained as firefighters.
Even in a smaller building, firefighters cannot go up the exit stairways until all are evacuated, they might as well stand outside with the marshmallows until then.
Elias
The 11th floor, the 30th floor, or the 130th floor, it is all the same above the 10th floor. 100' is what fire department ladders can reach. Anything above that requires that the building, like a naval vessel, be able to fight its own fires without outside help. It is possible.
Except it's not always possible. All evidence seems to indicate that the standpipe systems in both WTC towers were rendered inoperable by the airplane impacts. Even if both towers had remained standing, there's not much that the FDNY could have done except wait for the fires to burn themselves out. It's very unlikely that they could have rescued more than a couple hundred people at most.
Except it's not always possible. All evidence seems to indicate that the standpipe systems in both WTC towers were rendered inoperable by the airplane impacts.
Correct. There are some events that will always exceed the limits of a building or other structure. You cannot design for these. A building with a population in the thousands or many thousands will always have fires in it. It needs to be designed to protect the building and the people in it. The building staff, inculding fire wardens within each firm need to be able to evacuate the building without the assistance of the fire department. And those I belive are the *current* fire regulations in the city. Additionally I am suggesting that building maintenance employees be cross trained as firefighters. They ought to be able to using fire apratus built into the building, fight most expectable fires on their own without the assistance of the FDNY.
Why? because the first priority on the stairways is the egress from the building. Only once the building (or fire floors) are evacuated ought the FD go up into the building. And I believe that this too is part of the current operating guidelines of the FDNY. (Correct me if I am wrong, but I had heard this in a lecture given to EMS providers in Bismarck by an FDNY chief.)
Elias
>>> Additionally I am suggesting that building maintenance employees be cross trained as firefighters <<<
And how many daytime career maintenance workers are in an 80 story high rise office building at any given time? You are not going to give effective firefighting training to employees with high turnover. The cleaning crews and elevator maintenance are usually outside contractors. With modern push button computer controlled buildings, even the heating and air conditioning maintenance may be done by outside contractors.
Tom
And how many daytime career maintenance workers are in an 80 story high rise office building at any given time?
About 20. This is sufficient. They already have things like routine electrical, plumbing and heating maintenance. There are also people with security duties. Most security might be managed by a contractor, but it could be a contractural requirement with the contractor to provied fire and security despatching and coordination within the building.
Your key people in these areas are executive level people who are paid well and will not have outragious turnover. Your key maintenance men, likewise will be well paid with limited turnover. This is (or ought to be) a minimum requiremnt placed on landlords and building operators as imposed by a certificate of occupancy.
Elias
>>> Most security might be managed by a contractor, but it could be a contractural requirement with the contractor to provied fire and security despatching and coordination within the building. <<<
Most building security in this area is done by independent contractors using retired police officers. They are not always at the same building, so it becomes difficult to integrate them into a building fire department. Since part of their job is to watch for employee stealing, they tend not to fraternize with other building employees. In the event of a fire, they are primarily responsible for informing tenants and coordinating evacuation, so would not be immediately available for firefighting.
As good as your idea is on paper, I doubt that it would be practical for two reasons. First there are so few fires that cannot be handled by automatic sprinklers that unused skills would get rusty. This is basically a volunteer fire department that gets less than one call a year, and has no chance to learn by going to many fires to see the characteristics of various fires. Second, when there is a big fire, especially in a high rise, it needs experienced professional fire fighters. Amateurs without big fire experience would be committing suicide trying to advance with an interior attack on a floor that was fully involved, or even one where there was high temperature and zero visibility because of thick smoke (and the danger of an immediate flash over).
This is not to say that building personnel should not be given some fire training, such as using hand extinguishers to put out small fires, and which type of extinguisher should be used on what type of fire, and not taking an elevator to a fire floor, but turning them into a fire department to fight a major conflagration is impractical.
Tom
In the event of a fire, they are primarily responsible for informing tenants and coordinating evacuation, so would not be immediately available for firefighting.
Correct, that is all I intended of them,,, dispatching efforts from the command console.
This is basically a volunteer fire department that gets less than one call a year, and has no chance to learn by going to many fires to see the characteristics of various fires.
Also correct. This is a problem with our rural fire department too. So you schedule training at a fire training facility. Most of the training consists of what they can and cannot handle safely. Most Small fires are either supressed by sprinkler systems or are easily contained by these 'voulunteer' fire fighters.
I picture the response to be more of the 'flying squad' aboard ship, a handfull of professionals who can take charge, and usually control small problems. They need proper equipment pre-located at appropriate places throughtout the building.
First concerns, as always is the evacuation of people from the fire area, and then the physical containment of the fire. This may include shutting down fire doors, and flooding the area with sprinkler water of other agents. If this is done then only FDNY would be able to open and re-enter the area.
All of this is a moot point when faced with the 9-11 disaster which was and will always be outside of possible defensive parameters. The bigger bomb always wins over armour and perperatiion. Nothing you can do about that.
Elias
You may not have effective firefighting with 80 story towers, but you can design a building that will allow just about everyone (if not all) to escape. You can replace buildings, but not people. -Nick
1) You *can* have effective firefighting anywhere in a building, no matter how tall. What you do not have is access to the building by firedepartments sitting outside on the pavement. Such buildings need to be built with internal fire supression equipment in addition to sprinklers. This includes the availability of personel, bunker equipment, Breathing Equipment, hoses and adequate standpipes, with water supplies on upper floors. (No pumps allowed during fires).
2) You do not need all of the occupants to escape the building. They only have to escape the fire. The building needs to be able to protect people in the non-involved areas. The stairways at WTC were not designed to evacuate 50,000 people all at once, but only to evacuate the fire floors, and then to commence with an orderly evacuation. This they did do at WTC. Most people were evacuated. Some were destroyed by the initial impact, and otheres were trapped above the fires. Most of the others were able to get out, or so it seems.
3) The WTC did a MUCH BETTER job of protecting its occupants than the Pentagon did. However, there is no way that any building be it one storey or 110 stories can be expected to survive all unforessable seneriaos. You SUV will protect you in a collision with a Yugo, but will not help you in a collision with an SD-90. Still, you cannot build an SUV that will protect you in a collision with an SD-90, not even an Abrhams tank can do that.
4) Your life is in the hands of your Creator, be it long or short. Live it to the full, watch out for yourself and for others, but do not put fear in tall buildings or foreigners with funny ideas and headgear.
Elias
Good words of wisdom :-) -Nick
Sprinklers are and should be totally reliable if looked after and maintained properly. Part of the maintenance should be a thorough inspection and test at the most remote point to ensure the availabilty of water supplies. I do conceeed that following installtion the systems may not be looked after by the building owners. Systems in the UK must be installed by certificated engineers. No one in the UK has died due to a fire in a sprinkler protected building.
I share your concerns for buildings over 30 storeys.
Simon
Swindon UK
Given the intensity and heat of the fires in the WTC buildings, even if the pipes hadn't been cut by the planes and even if the sprinklers had worked, about all that would have come of it was steam. What happened at WTC was no ordinary fire.
even if the pipes hadn't been cut by the planes and even if the sprinklers had worked, about all that would have come of it was steam.
No, actually, the fuel, and therefore the fire would be above the water. The big problem there was that the water would wash the burning fuel down throught the rest of the building.
Elias
Could be as well ... the one thing that I had heard on a number of analyses of what happened is that if the sprinklers had sprayed, the heat was SO intense, the water would have turned straight to steam before it hit the floor. I'm told that fires that weren't as hot have been known to do that. But I make no claims of expertise.
(the one thing that I had heard on a number of analyses of what happened is that if the sprinklers had sprayed, the heat was SO intense, the water would have turned straight to steam before it hit the floor. I'm told that fires that weren't as hot have been known to do that.)
The first National Institute of Standards investigation found that the super-hot fuel fire burned out quickly, but a normal contents fire melted the steel. The sprinkler lines were cut -- there was no water -- and the impact blasted the fireproofing off the steel. All previous high rise fires had burned themselves out. NO ONE had ever died in a fully fireproof building with sprinklers before.
Could it happen again? An airplane might knock over a lesser building, so there is no defense. I'm told that what REALLY worries people is the fact that 7 WTC collapsed.
That's one I won't even speculate on. Like the last "bunker mentality" government we had, there's more than enough conspiracy food here. Here's just TWO of them:
http://www.baltech.org/lederman/giuliani-wtc-collapse-3-01-02.html
http://www.iiie.net/Sept11/LiesAndVideotape.html
One of the things I learned a long time ago is when someone sees a UFO, it's time to go home ...
things like that anger me beyond belief.
oh gimme a break. everything is a "conspiracy". remember the e-mails that circulated days after the WTC attacks about the "predictions" that Nostradamus made (about 100 years after he died, no less)? People love finding ways to stir up the public. A missile? you have GOT to be kidding me. I watched the entire event from the windows of Stuyvesant High School, about 4 blocks away. Missle my ass.
"One of the things I learned a long time ago is when someone sees a UFO, it's time to go home ... "
You got that right SelkirkTMO.
Referring to Lyndon LaRouche as a "credible source" did it for me. Fer Sher, them's space aliens. :)
I'm told that what REALLY worries people is the fact that 7 WTC collapsed.
As has been noted elsewhere, the large diesel fuel tank inside the building, used to provide emergency power to the Mayor's "bunker," probably enabled the fire to reach temperatures sufficient to cause failure of the structural steel. Very few if any skyscrapers have fuel tanks of that sort, at least not in similarly exposed locations, so hopefully 7 WTC's collapse will never be repeated elsewhere.
Actually, it may not have mattered much if the building had remained standing. It looks as if 7 WTC was very heavily engulfed in flames before its collapse. The building might very well have been damaged beyond repair. Today it might be like the Deutsch Bank building on Liberty Street, a ruined, uninhabitable hulk whose ultimate fate remains uncertain.
If I was da mayor of da city of New York, I'd not build my command post there!
Here in North Dakota, our State-Wide command post is on the grounds of the Fraine (Nat'l Guard Amry) Barricks, in a fortifided bunker 40' below an open field.
So if I was da mayor, I'd build my bunker (and a bunker is needed) deep under central park. No Problems!
Elias
Yeah 7 didn't even get hit by a plane, but had fires due to debris falling from 1 WTC.
It has been mentioned that Port Authority buildings weren't required to have as strict codes as the rest of the city.
Indeed the sytem would have been useless. Generally sprinkler systems are designed for one fire in one place at one time and have a maximum area of operation usually for offices about 186m2. These were exceptional circumstances.
Simon
Swindon UK
You can work in a high rise if you want to...but I will stay below the 30th floor.
I do work in a high rise, above the 30th floor. If the sprinklers don't work, the problem is not the design of the building, it's a maintenance and inspection problem of making sure the sprinklers always work. Of course, sprinklers probably wouldn't have helped in the WTC. So be it, that scenario is different from an "ordinary" office building fire, where I believe that sprinklers would work. There are too many dangers in life to plan things around extreme scenarios like what happened at the WTC. If we planned for all of them we'd never leave our self-contained habitation bunkers and never have any children.
"So don't build a standard building"
Sorry, I left out an important aspect of my design. I would like the towers to have the same shape and width as the original ones. But the towers don't need to look the same, since the old towers were impressive for their height, not the way they looked. -Nick
My plan calls for a memorial in the center, because the victims should be at the center of attention.
I believe the memorial should be peripheral to the site, since LIFE has to be at the center of attention.
Why should we, our children and our children's children be forced to wallow in death?
Good point. Celebrating life can certainly be apart of this memorial. But at the same time, the victims need to be remembered as well. -Nick
The best way to provide a memorial to the victims is not to have let their murderers alter the most famous, and pride-inspiring horizon the world has ever known.
I couldn't agree with you more, Alan! :-) -Nick
(In an op ed piece in this week's Time, Giuliani expresses his wish that the entire ground zero site be maintained as a memorial.
I've always agreed with that assessment. )
To complete the proposal, I suggest the abandonment of all parks under five acres, the permanent closure of all local library branches, the end of all bus service between 1 a.m. and 5 a.m., and the permanent end of all art and music instruction in NYC's public schools. This will make up for the lost tax revenues.
Hey, we are talking about the guy who tried to illegally GIVE AWAY the high line here.
F ghooliani.
Well, I agree with you abt the high line. As a rule, pre 9-11, Giuliani could always be counted on to put in with the developers, and the developers see pristine territory if they could only tear down the high line.
The high line should be made into a parkway/urban trail, as so many other abandoned RRs in the USA have been...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Or what about a subway line! I got that from OldNYC's section for the High Line and is so true. I'm sad though, since it will never come to reality.
the climate seems a lot more favorable for the park now. As you know, this town has a nasty habit of paving over it's own history, hopefully that won't happen in this case.
Or you could raise property taxes in NYC.
(Or you could raise property taxes in NYC.)
Gladly. Just eliminate the local income tax and (for those self-employed) the unincorporated business tax. I think having an easier tax comparison with the suburbs would be a real eye opener. Total local taxes here are 20 to 50 percent higher, depending on who you are and where you live.
Total local taxes here are 20 to 50 percent higher, depending on who you are and where you live.
Or dramatically lower, on those same criteria.
One issue that is often ignored is that the property tax is most regressive tax possible. If you have no income and spend nothing, you still owe the same property tax. It is not a reflection of wealth, just an indication that you live someplace.
One issue that is often ignored is that the property tax is most regressive tax possible. If you have no income and spend nothing, you still owe the same property tax.
I have got some male-bovine by-products in the back field that I can sell you....
How is PROPERTY TAX regressive??????
Only the RICH own property anyway!
Actually it dates bact to a time when the only tax was the property tax, and this was also a time when only property owners could vote anyway.
My raw suggestion is that everyone should pay an incometax at a rate of say 15%, and that every business pay an incometax of say 0.5% on all gross income.
Why? well first, I eliminate every tax break and loop hole (save standard exemptions and charitable contributions). You earn x dollars, you pay 15% x in tax. Period. no long forms no cheating.
Why so little for business? Because it is on GROSS INCOME and not declaired profit. Doesn't matter what the company claims for expenses of if they moved their offices to the Bahamas. Pay 0.5% of all INCOME, regardless of expensess, salaries, etc etc. No Loop holes not accounting tricks. You touched the money, you owe the tax, before you spirit it out of the country or pay it off to corporate theives, and call it expenses.
Elias
I'm glad YOU think I'm rich just because I own property. My bank would probably disagree with you.
Heh. Agreed. My adjusted taxable income last year was just a shade over $8,000 but my combined school and property taxes topped $4,000. Nothing gets me happier than paying more than 3/4 of my income in taxes. :)
YIPES! That sucks...you need a houseboat and a satellite for internet service;)
How is PROPERTY TAX regressive??????
Only the RICH own property anyway!
Actually it dates bact to a time when the only tax was the property tax, and this was also a time when only property owners could vote anyway.
It can be regressive because many people will see their tax liability increase dramatically as their houses or other properties appreciate even though their incomes may not have risen commeasurately.
Only the RICH own property anyway!
I wish I was... and while I'm not "house poor", I have very little in the bank for the proverbial rainy day. Children, especially those in pursuit of higher education, tend to be a bit of a financial drag. And while I do own two houses in two different states (North Carolina and New Jersey), they're both small and somewhat rundown because (thanks to the taxes on the one in New Jersey) they're on the "deferred maintenance" plan.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: The property owner is being taxed out of existence and what is needed is what we did in California in 1978====Proposition 13, which assessed taxable property at 1% of assessed valuation. Those who already owned their home got the tax break of their lives. Those who bought after 1978 still get taken to the cleaners. But was better than nothing.
Only the RICH own property anyway!
How do you define rich?? This would be news to me and my neighbors-- we're rich because we own houses.... sheeeeesh.....
>>> It is not a reflection of wealth, just an indication that you live someplace. <<<
Of course it is a reflection of wealth. The tax is based on the value of the property. The more property you own, in terms of value, the more tax you pay. Even if you do not own property, the tax is a component of the rent you pay, so everyone pays the tax, but the wealthier pay more.
The property tax also encourages the utilization of property, since if you own a tract of property that is fallow you will pay tax on it, which may encourage you to put the property to work to earn enough to pay its taxes. That usually means jobs, and a general increase in the wealth of the area.
Tom
(The tax is based on the value of the property. The more property you own, in terms of value, the more tax you pay. Even if you do not own property, the tax is a component of the rent you pay, so everyone pays
the tax, but the wealthier pay more. The property tax also encourages the utilization of property, since if you own a tract of property that is fallow you will pay tax on it, which may encourage you to put the property to work to earn enough to pay its taxes. That usually means jobs, and a general increase in the wealth of the area.)
I see you agree with the counter-revolution in evaluation the property tax since it was declared regressive in the 1950s. There are three things about the property tax people don't like. It is difficult for people to cheat on their own. It is easy for groups of people to help with the assistance of government -- property tax assessments are generally unfair. And it is one tax the elderly have to pay, and they are not used to being on that end of public spending.
There are three things about the property tax people don't like. It is difficult for people to cheat on their own. It is easy for groups of people to help with the assistance of government -- property tax assessments are generally unfair. And it is one tax the elderly have to pay, and they are not used to being on that end of public spending.
Part of the reason why older people tend to dislike the property tax is the fact that they often have paid off their mortgages and therefore have to pay taxes in one or two annual installments. Younger people are more likely to have mortgages and therefore pay their taxes via monthly escrow collections. It doesn't seem quite as painful when you pay in that manner.
Younger people are more likely to have mortgages and therefore pay their taxes via monthly escrow collections. It doesn't seem quite as painful when you pay in that manner.
Until you look at your monthly mortgage statement and find that 62% is going to interest, 37.6% to taxes and insurance, and 0.4% to principal. (That's a fairly typical breakdown for the first year of a 30-year mortgage today in New Jersey. For my own mortgage [a 15-year note at approximately the same interest rate as I could get today, with 10+ years to go, in a relatively tax-cheap area of NJ], the figure right now is 40.4% to interest, 23.2% to taxes and insurance, and 36.4% to principal.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> Until you look at your monthly mortgage statement and find that 62% is going to interest, 37.6% to taxes and insurance, and 0.4% to principal. (That's a fairly typical breakdown for the first year of a 30-year mortgage today in New Jersey. <<<
The small amount to principal (but more than 0.4% unless it is a very high interest loan) is typical of a 30 year mortgage anywhere. It is also the reason there are no 40 year mortgages. At 5% interest the monthly P&I payment for a 40 year loan is 89.8% of the payment for a 30 year loan. At 12% the P&I monthly payment for a 40 year loan is 98.0% of the payment for a 30 year loan.
Tom
Agreed. Perhaps I should have contrasted it with figures for rural North Carolina, where the same total monthly payment would have about 5% going to taxes and insurance and you'd pay the loan off in 12 years (or where a 30 year mortgage would still have a payment that would have less than 10% going to taxes and insurance).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not as onerous when you realize that, because so much is interest that first year, it also means you get a very sizable deduction on your income tax.
It's not as onerous when you realize that, because so much is interest that first year, it also means you get a very sizable deduction on your income tax.
But the deduction is less valuable if you're in the lower income tax brackets. Yet another way the property tax is regressive.
"But the deduction is less valuable if you're in the lower income tax brackets. Yet another way the property tax is regressive."
True. However, if you are able to buy a starter house ($35,000 in some parts of Philly) then even on a limited income, you can get some benefit (as opposed to being a renter, previously).
But I agree with your main point.
And I agree with your point as well.
The famous New York socialist Norman Thomas thought that people should own the space they lived in, even if it's an apartment. In addition to the obvious idea that you should own your living space, eather than pay tribute to a landlord (or the state) he felt that it promoted social responsibility and stablized and improved neighborhoods.
Agreed. The building where I grew up (941 Jerome Av at 161 Street, in the Bronx) went down hil in the 1970's, then was rehabilitated as a coop and did much better.
>>>The building where I grew up (941 Jerome Av at 161 Street, in the Bronx)<<<
Really? I grew up at 1210 Nelson at 167th, just up the hill. Small world. What school did you go to?
Peace,
ANDEE
Went to a private Jewish day school, Kinneret, on the Grand Concourse. I attended this school because it had an elevator (and the public school did not), and I wore a brace on my left leg at the time.
I went to Sacred Heart, guess we never ran into each other. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
But we sure endured much of the same...well...
:0)
LOL...ain't that the truth. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> But the deduction is less valuable if you're in the lower income tax brackets. Yet another way the property tax is regressive. <<<
That is backward reasoning. The income tax is progressive, the property tax is neutral, the type of "flat tax" that conservative would be income tax reformers are calling for.
Tom
The "flat tax" proposals are flat as to percentage of income, not amount.
>>> The "flat tax" proposals are flat as to percentage of income, not amount. <<<
Which is also true about property taxes.
Tom
>>> The "flat tax" proposals are flat as to percentage of income, not amount. <<<
Which is also true about property taxes.
Assume a "flat income tax" of 15%, property tax of $5,000.
Person makes $50,000.
Income tax is $7,500 (15%)
Property tax is $5,000 (10%)
Person make $10,000.
Income tax is $1,500 (15%)
Propery tax us $7,5000 (50%).
We generally use the terms progressive, flat and regressive in relation portion to income taxed, regardless of how the tax is actually collected--i.e., on income, property, sales, etc.
Actually the flat tax proposals are still somewhat progressive, since they all anticipate large deductibles. I'm not an advocate, before we get on that tangent.
>>> Assume a "flat income tax" of 15%, property tax of $5,000. <<<
You are starting an apples and oranges comparison with this example. If you compare a 15% income tax to a 1% of assessed valuation tax property tax, you will see that they are both flat with regard to what they are measuring. Income tax tends to be progressive because higher marginal income is taxed at higher rates. The social security tax tends to be regressive since it has an upper limit on the amount taxed.
A property tax is regressive if the first $100,000 of value is taxed at 1% and value higher than $100,000 is taxed at a lower rate such as 0.75%. I have not done a survey, but I think such regressive property taxing systems are rare.
To call a property tax regressive because a property owner with less income pays a higher percent of his income to pay the same amount as a person with a higher income is an improper (but politically popular) use of the term, usually reserved for consumption (sales) taxes.
Tom
I understand your technical point, but you're playing with language. When we describe taxes as regressive, flat or progressive in this society, we generally mean in relation to income or ability to pay.
The "flat tax" advocates are advocating a tax that is flat (relatively) in terms of rate, not absolute amount.
Taxes that are actually flat in amount as you're describing are usually called capitations.
However, the less affluent are less easily able to pay an increased property tax than more affluent people. In this sense it is not quite neutral, and may have a similar effect to a flat income tax.
Property taxes are favored on a macro-scale due to their (overall) stability - they are due and payable even if there are decreases in income tax collections, so they help local governments better predict their incomes.
Property taxes are favored on a macro-scale due to their (overall) stability - they are due and payable even if there are decreases in income tax collections, so they help local governments better predict their incomes.
And property taxes are even more stable when compared to sales taxes, which are notoriously economy-sensitive.
"The income tax is progressive, the property tax is neutral, the type of "flat tax" that conservative would be income tax reformers are calling for."
No, Tom, the property tax is regressive in practice. However, the source of this is often in valuations, not the tax itself. Very expensive homes are often under-assessed. Very cheap homes are often over-assessed due to assessors not wanting to go below a threshold. This is well-documented in Philadelphiaand in other places. The most accurate assessments occur in the middle. So in practice, the wealthy do end up paying less than they should, and the poor, more.
No, Tom, the property tax is regressive in practice. However, the source of this is often in valuations, not the tax itself. Very expensive homes are often under-assessed. Very cheap homes are often over-assessed due to assessors not wanting to go below a threshold. This is well-documented in Philadelphiaand in other places. The most accurate assessments occur in the middle. So in practice, the wealthy do end up paying less than they should, and the poor, more.
So in other words: It is not the TAX that is unfair or regressive, but rather the slopy, racist and truly unfair way that property is assessed. and *THAT* I can agree with to the extent that it is true, and I also accept that it *IS* true to a very great extent.
So it is not the TAX in need of repair but assessment procedures and rules. Ind those will be a lot easier to fix than to change the tax. Changing Assessment procedures is a matter of administrative rule making, changing a tax law is frought with special intrests (and chizzlers both rich and poor) from hell and back.
Elias
>>> it is not the TAX in need of repair but assessment procedures and rules <<<
The key to fair assessment is basing the tax on fair market value rather than some "assessed value" which is based on some formula regarding the size of the property. Since in California, assessment is recalculated upon the sale of real property, the sale price must be reported to the assessor upon change of title. In an arm's length transaction, that is an excellent indicator of fair market value. Problems occur when there is a casualty such as fire or earthquake, which reduces the value of a particular piece of real estate, or real estate is transferred between family members for less than fair compensation, or an area (usually rural) has had no sales of real estate for a long period of time.
Tom
"Fair market value" is not fair either, if by fair you mean that that the value of the property is an indication of the homeowner's ability to pay.
When a family lives in a house for 20 years, the area they live in good become more expensive, raising the "market" value of their home. In the meantime, their income could be stagnant or even decline. The "wealth" represented by their house is meaningless unless they sell it. They where are they supposed to live.
They should sell the house and buy a cheaper one. They would not only have to pay less taxes, but get some money that can be invested or used to purchase furniture or nice appliances.
They should sell the house and buy a cheaper one. They would not only have to pay less taxes, but get some money that can be invested or used to purchase furniture or nice appliances.
One could scoff at your suggestion, indeed, I almost did so, but that is EXACTLY what my parents did when dad retired. They sold the house on Long Island, and bought one for much less money in Pennsylvania, that also had a much lower assesd evaluation.
The reason for an 'assessed evaluation' instead of a market value evaluation is to account for inflation and market changes. All of the houses were supposed to be assessed in 1960 dollars or whatever the baseline might be. When it is time to set a new bench mark, the rate is also adjusted.
Leastwise that is the theory as I understood it. Your Taxes and Results May vary, not valid where restricted or taxed.
>>> "Fair market value" is not fair either, if by fair you mean that that the value of the property is an indication of the homeowner's ability to pay. <<<
"Fair market value" has no correlation with a homeowner's ability to pay. It is an economic concept, not a social one. "Fair market value" is defined as the amount a willing seller will sell his property for and a willing buyer will pay for it assuming both parties have knowledge of all pertinent information about the property.
>>> When a family lives in a house for 20 years, the area they live in good become more expensive, raising the "market" value of their home. In the meantime, their income could be stagnant or even decline. <<<
Theoretically, the family has planned for the increase in value of the house, and has other investments, not just its house, and these other investments are structured in such a way as to allow the payment of the increased property tax. Unfortunately most Americans have absolutely no investment education or understanding of that principal, and invest all their available funds in a house that is too expensive for their income, and therefore have one big illiquid asset instead of a balanced portfolio.
Tom
No, the essential tax is wrong. It comes from an era when property was wealth, and only property owners had power or could even vote in some cases.
The Property Tax didn't ontemplate the era when average people owned their own living space, and where owning real property was not indicative of ability to pay.
The Property Tax didn't ontemplate the era when average people owned their own living space, and where owning real property was not indicative of ability to pay.
This may be so, and maybe there *should* be changes, but I do not forsee or support an elimination of the property tax. The best I would hope for is a review and restructuring of how it is assessed and collected.
Elias
The REAL ANGER/FEAR derives from insane real estate increases such as a house bought in 1977 for a paltry $25k is now perhaps worth $375-400k. So imagine how the real estate tax would skyrocket while your income went up much less. (can you say prop 13?) And why do you think not enough housing is being built? (a clue, if we built as fast as the market, existing housing would not apreciate as fast)
>>> And it is one tax the elderly have to pay, and they are not used to being on that end of public spending. <<<
The reason California voters approved Proposition 13 back in the 70s. That law limited increases in tax valuation of real property to 2% per year until ownership changed (when it was reassessed at market value). It was meant to protect pensioners from losing their homes to increasing taxes, but since it was not limited to natural persons, corporations got a big windfall too, and the state lost a lot of income since the upward valuation of corporate real property was also limited.
Tom
(The reason California voters approved Proposition 13 back in the 70s. That law limited increases in tax valuation of real property to 2% per year until ownership changed (when it was reassessed at market value). It was meant to protect pensioners from losing their homes to increasing taxes, but since it was not limited to natural persons, corporations got a big windfall too, and the state lost a lot of income since the upward valuation of corporate real property was also limited.)
The effect of Prop 13 has been to shift the tax burden to the state level, which limits the difference in taxes and spending between rich and poor communities. As a result, services are more equitable in California than in New York. And in New York, with Medicaid costs paid in part by local government, the state has raised Medicaid payments to double California's level.
>>> the state has raised Medicaid payments to double California's level. <<<
Which is not saying much. Other than a few "clinics" who grab everyone they can off the streets (sending vans to welfare offices) to treat in a factory assembly line fashion even if they are not ill, it is hard to find any doctors who will accept new Medi-Cal patients because they can not pay their office overhead with the reimbursement, and take an out of pocket loss for each patient they treat.
Tom
I'm not comparing NY to California, but still New York medicare has to be a scandal. I can't imagine spending more money to give less actual service than NY medicare provides.
The costs of health care are skyrocketing because more people are demanding more care for more issues, and because advances in health care have made more options available in the first place.
In the past, people would only see a doctor when they were really sick, which is not to say that regular checkups and preventitive care are not got things (they are), but with more people in the system, having more tests which themselves are more costly, it is unfair to hold the helath care professions to a flat comparisson of inflation rates. You are trying to compare a 1960s McDonald's burger with a 2002 Filet Mingion dinner at the Swank Resturant!
If we need to look at public support for health care, then it is entirely reasonable to consider what the public (and public purse) is willing to pay for, and to exclude some sorts of care from that policy. This does happen all of the time in the private sector. If you buy a health insurance policy based on price alone, you have already made your choice, and it seems disingenious for one to later bitch because something is not covered. You *could* have purchased a more comprehensive package, but you choos not to because you were cheap. Tough brake dust (to keep a *little* bit on topic).
I do not have an answer for the issues of health care, public or otherwise, but it is not reasonable to compare New York coverage to that of California, or an American system with a Canadian system which BTW has many faults and drawbacks that you do not hear about.
However, I will take issue with greed! Be it the greedy rich wanting more tax cuts, or the greedy poor wanting more handouts. Either we work together to make America great or we fight together until we follow the path of the Soviet Union into a limbo of nothingness.
At least we know that we *can* pull together to make great things happen, if we wanted to.
Elias
The costs of health care are skyrocketing because more people are demanding more care for more issues, and because advances in health care have made more options available in the first place.
That is rather non-responsive to my point, which is that New York Medicare is probably the least service for the most bucks.
The last time I looked at the detailed numbers (about a year ago) the cost per recipient was about $6,600/year. Compare this to my market rate insurance policy, for which I pay about $8,000/year. That's for my entire family of four.
Sure, you can argue that my policy has higher co-pays and doesn't cover some important things, such as dental, but still the difference is ridiculous. You can't say the recipients are getting the $$$ in service. A Medicare family of four is "costing" some $26,000 a year. For that, they should be getting Park AVenue doctors making house calls with their entire staffs. Check the reality. Where does the money go?
Check the reality. Where does the money go?
A lot of it is lost in fraud. (Both on the part of the provider and on recipiant cheats).
More is lost in beuocracy. More in the paper work to prove that you were doing the job right.
Some is the fault of lawmakers, requiring so and so services.
Medicaid services cover things like nursing homes, that are NOT covered by your healt insurance dollars, but is gastly expensive. Out here we are over $125 a day for a nursing home placement, while you costs are probably closer to $300/day.
You can't give me a cost comparisson until you also compare what is covered.
But the bottom line is IT COSTS! and it WILL COST MORE
Elias
In New York, that money goes into the "General fund" with all other receipts from various taxes and fees. It's part of the huge shell game they play (with the full blessings of the Governor) which end up getting disbursed for train stations nobody wants, baseball stadiums in the middle of a trailer park and various other "member items" and tax breaks for companies that take the money and run to another state with it.
A lot of these issues could be solved by DEDICATED funding for specific purposes such as medicaid, but that's not the way the juice flows in THIS state.
"The property tax also encourages the utilization of property, since if you own a tract of property that is fallow you will pay tax on it, which may encourage you to put the property to work to earn enough to pay its taxes. That usually means jobs, and a general increase in the wealth of the area."
While I am not a big fan of the property tax,you have given a highly intelligent defense of it. However, since you are a realtor, doesn't the property tax affect your income by discouraging home ownership. My opinion is that if a person buys something, it belongs to him. Because of the property tax, nobody in America owns real estate because of the livegage* held by the government.
(*Livegage- a form of loan with perpetual payments.)
>>> My opinion is that if a person buys something, it belongs to him. Because of the property tax, nobody in America owns real estate because of the livegage* held by the government. <<<
All sort of property needs additional payments to maintain it. Property taxes are appropriate to pay for fire and police protection, and many of the other services of government which help maintain the value of the property. If you own a vehicle, you must pay for maintenance and repairs to maintain its value (and a tax through annual registration). If you own a boat, you need to pay docking fees, and if it is large enough, crew salaries. If you own valuable jewelry or art works you will have to pay for security. Someone else used the term "house poor" which usually refers to someone who owns real estate, but does not have the liquid assets to pay the taxes and maintain the property. I have often said that if someone wanted to give me a Rolls Royce automobile, I could not afford to keep it because I could not afford the insurance, registration, or the cost of repairing it. Everyone who owns any property, real or personal, must have liquid assets to pay the maintenance costs.
Tom
TV game show contestants who win cars or other high value goods often sell them or take out loans to pay income taxes on their winnings.
Let's make this real on-topic.
General property taxes have little to no relationship between tax and benefit. A large piece of unbuilt land uses no more police service than a small one, That's why you have special use taxes. The biggest portion of property tax goes to the schools, where your use of service depends on having children, not having acreage.
A homeowner has all these maintenance expenses you speak of, none of which is paid from the property tax. My property taxes do not buy me insurance for my house ($1,000 plus/year) or paint it, or fix damage, or put on a new roof. They don't pay for my heat. These are all items you expect to be included in your rent, but are not paid by your property tax. So property taxes are not a sort of communal property maintenance plan.
But what I'm making real is this: Suppose you have some nice items inyour personal railfan collection. A few items become very rare over the years, and are now worth $100,000. The state passes a personal propety tax and all items that are not necessities of life are taxed 5% per annum. You now have to, in effect, buy back your collection each year for $5,000, even though you protest that you bought the items originally for much less than that. If you don't have the $5,000, you have to sell part of your collection to pay the tax. If you refuse, the state can take you whole collection and sell it for a fraction of its value, just so they can get "their" money.
That's what property tax is like.
Thank You, Paul.
>>> That's what property tax is like. <<<
And your point is?? The property tax is a levy on accumulated wealth. Historically, that type of tax long precedes income taxes as a way to finance governments. It is so much easier to tax accumulated wealth (especially real property) that can be seen than income which can be hidden in so many ways. The taxing authorities like the theory that the government services have assisted the wealthy in accumulating their wealth, and therefore they should pay more.
The property taxes are one of the expenses of owning property.
Tom
Oh, I understand. You're in favor of taxing material benefits you receive through government action.
I guess you're in favor of taxing rent controlled apartments. To the renters, I mean.
>>> Oh, I understand. You're in favor of taxing material benefits you receive through government action.
I guess you're in favor of taxing rent controlled apartments. To the renters, I mean. <<<
I do not think I expressed any support of any particular scheme of taxation in my prior posts. I did point out that renters do end up paying property taxes as a component of their rent. Rent control on a building would tend to lower the valuation of the building, since the value of rental property is tied to the amount of rents one can receive, and therefore lower the amount of tax the owner pays compared to a similar building without rent control.
Tom
Because of the property tax, nobody in America owns real estate because of the livegage* held by the government.
Land Ownership is not such a natural thing as you might suspect. Many cultures in the world (including the American Indiaans prior to the adoption of white ideas) had no concept of land ownership. You are the custodian or steward of the land and its resources. In token of this the property tax is a way for society to place its claim on the land. For a price you may buy the deed to this land, but there is a perpetual fee for your continued use of the land. If this fee is no longer paid, the land reverts to the city or county, and may be sold to another steward.
In an off line discussion on taxes I was treating on the idea that each tweeking of the tax code was infact another set of loopholes that people will climb through. The previously mentiond effects of prop 13 (heretofore unknown to me) demonstrates how poorly crafted law caused the opposite effect of what was intended (ie the elderly should be relived of property tax increase-- and the corporations acruing to themselves the same benefit)
Methinks that tax law ought to raise revenue for the government and that other laws and regulations ought to enforce or promote social policy including respectible corporate responsibility to society as a whole.
Elias
Land Ownership is not such a natural thing as you might suspect. Many cultures in the world (including the American Indiaans prior to the adoption of white ideas) had no concept of land ownership. You are the custodian or steward of the land and its resources.
Ah, so now we're invoking Native American land concepts. Aside from the inherent ethnocentrism of describing American Indians as though they were a single culture instead of diverse cultures that sometimes warred with each other (and they weren't warring over scripture), other cultures have also had concepts of land ownership residing in a diety or spirit (representing communalism) and that those occupying it were revocable stewards of it. It was called fuedalism, and since God generally did not specify who should steward what, this was left to Kings and Nobles who interpreted God's command.
To paraphrase the social historian L. Sprague DeCamp, it's interesting that when tribal or feudal leaders interpreted their Deity's will in the distribution of land they controlled it seemed that the "stewardship" went to members of their own tribe, not to those of the neighboring tribe.
In token of this the property tax is a way for society to place its claim on the land.
"In token of this." Nice phrase. If the government wants to assert its heavenly stewardship, they can do it with a dollar a year, not more than 7,000 of them, in my case.
there is a perpetual fee for your continued use of the land. If this fee is no longer paid,
"No longer paid" encompasses "no longer can pay." Lose your income, you don't pay income tax. Lose you income and fail to pay your property tax because you chose to feed your children first, you lose your house.
Nice concept. Nice society.
I also disagree with Rudy, the WTC site should not just be a memorial space. The real question is does NYC need to replace all of the 13 million square feet of office space destroyed in the terrorist attacks of last year. Many of the former WTC tenants have permanently relocated to midtown Manhattan or the suburbs. I don't hear them clamoring to return to downtown. Even the NYSE is thinking of opening a second trading floor in Westchester. Modest un-rushed rebuilding plans plus a memorial area make the most sense at this point.
Here's another point of view. This person feels that the era of corporate "clustering" is ending due to 9/11 and other factors - -
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110002151
A link to breakdown of destroyed/damaged WTC office space - -
http://www.TenantWise.com/wtc_damage.asp
(The real question is does NYC need to replace all of the 13 million square feet of office space destroyed in the terrorist attacks of last year.)
NYC doesn't need to do anything. Developers need to build what the markeplace wants. Maybe it's joint living-working space for entrepreners. Maybe it's small corporate offices and hotel rooms, for companies elsewhere that want a New York presence. Maybe its meeting spaces for companies spread around the region, including those working at home, who want a central location for meetings.
As long as they pay full taxes and get no subsidies, I don't care.
To complete the proposal, I suggest the abandonment of all parks under five acres, the permanent closure of all local library branches, the end of all bus service between 1 a.m. and 5 a.m., and the permanent end of all art and music instruction in NYC's public schools.
That's probably going to happen anyway.
As much as I hate to agree with Rudi since I hate his guts I do have to agree with him on this one issue. Last month on my cross-country trip we stopped at the Oklahoma City Memorial and I thought it was very tasteful and beautiful. The whole area was made into a memorial, not just the building site. The area that used to be the street where McVeigh drove the truck was made into a shallow reflecting pool that actually looked like a mirror. The area where the building stood was filled with chairs, each one a memorial to each victim. There was also a museum which we didn't go into and other memorials. I'm sure the government could have rebuilt the building but I think the memorial will make people always remember.
I think it would be fitting for something like that for the Trade Center.
>>> The area where the building stood was filled with chairs, each one a memorial to each victim. <<<
That was a federal building, already off the tax rolls, so a memorial park in place of the building was not so hard to do. In downtown New York leaving the area as a park would take quite a lot of real estate off the tax rolls.
Tom
That may not have been the case. Since the Eisenhower era the Federal government has had the policy of having a private developer build the building and the government them leases it for a good number of years.
This keeps the local government happy because the building stays on the tax rolls and the business community is happy because they get a large, stable work force.
The Federal Government got a black eye in the late forties when SSA bought a 98 acre parcel in Woodlawn, where SSA now has its headquarters. The parcel went off the tax rolls, but did consume local money for roads, water/sewer services, and increased local police. The plus side was the large, stable work force, but that took years to develope.
>>> That may not have been the case. Since the Eisenhower era the Federal government has had the policy of having a private developer build the building and the government them leases it for a good number of years. <<<
That is interesting. But still, in Oklahoma City there was far more open space than in lower Manhattan, so a memorial park is cheaper.
I do not know if the Federal buildings in Los Angeles are leased or not, but I do know they are not subject to the local fire codes, and have features that would not be allowed in a commercial building, the most obvious being public rooms (designed to hold large groups of people) where the exit doors open inward rather than outward.
Tom
That may work for Oklahoma City, but it will not work in New York. We are looking at an area of only 16 acres. 16 acres that are located in the bottom of a canyon, a hole created by the remaining buildings. There will be no light or reflecting pools, but only a puddle at the bottom of a hole.
The only possible memorial to this event, is to build again, if not to restore the towers as they were, then to restore to the site its place as a productive tower of freedom and enterprise. There needs to be a world class building on this site.
Elias
In that situation what they did was very fitting. Not to trivialize what happened in Oklahoma, but that building was NOT the WTC. Most of the country (forget the world) never even heard of that building before that day. That was not lower Manhattan, and not one of the most famous landmarks in the world.
Your approach would hurt a lot of people, Jeffrey. It would hurt the city, it would hurt the children of the city, and it would ensure that shattered families would not rebuild their lives.
As a police officer, you have been professionally trained to follow your head in situations where if you "followed your heart" you know that the outcome would be very bad. I'm confident that you can apply that logic here.
Guiliani wrote an op-ed piece in a context where he is no longer in charge of the city, no longer responsible for other people's lives. He's dealing with survivor guilt, and this is his therapy. Don't take him out of context.
So, given your arguement, most of Europe shoudln't have been rebuilt after WW2 because is was a giant cemetary. Same for all those Japanesse cities that we leveled with either nuclear or conventional fire, including Tokyo (more deadly than either A-bomb drop). The world is for the living, not the dead. If you thik otherwise go jump in a hole and cover yourself with dirt.
Good grief, I'm actually in agreement with you on something! Yes, we should build again - not an architectural monstrosity like what was there, but productive buildings in keeping with their surroundings. With all due respect to the lives that were lost at the hands of the terrorists, they are small in number in comparison to the millions who died in World War II or in other wars. Life must go on; we cannot think of what might have been but rather of what might be, else there will be no future for mankind.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I couldn't agree more. Hopefully it will be a beautiful building. Not necessarily exactly as before, but still something that can be seen from all over. Life must go on, while remembering what happened there. There will always be a scar in that spot, but leaving it totally empty, only leaves a scab that will turn into an ulcer that never fully heals. The terrorists win if an open wound is left at the site.
Also the new building would have better safety equipment. WTC failed in both bombings with the safety systems. Repeaters did not work, and no one should be bottlenecked in stairwells like what happened on 9/11. Stairwells were way too narrow for such a tall building. But that was the problem with the old design, it put an emphasis on office space not on evacuation conditions.
Any new design would definately have to be safer. Also I think a footbridge between the two towers (like the Patronas) would also be a good way of getting people around the complex.
NYC should have the tallest building in America, if we want NYC to be a leader for America. We have an opportunity to build something better than what was there. I saw we should go for it!
You are right about the safety factors involved in the design of the building, and I was shocked to see that there were only three narrow stairways for each tower.
On the otherhand there is no construction that can stand up to the events of 9-11-01. The Pentagon was of an entirely different construction, yet that colapsed too, and with much loss of life. I suspect that there was a greater loss of life in the pentagon than in the WTC if coralated to the number of occupants, floor space, and the speed of the destruction. The immediate impact droped the entire section of the pentagon. The Immediate impact did of course destroy the target floors of the WTC, but the building stood, and protected the rest of the occupants for many minutes.
True, Some were killed instantly, and others were trapped above the fire with no hope or posibility of escape, but a majority of those below the impact area did in fact escape.
There were some response errors:
1) EMS had no business entering the building: the scene was not safe.
2) Fire fighters had no business trying to go up the stairways: the building has adequate numbers of fire wardens on each floor to direct the evacuation, and all the FD did was to block the egress of people down those small stairways. Their own protocol states that this is to be the case.
Buildings of this nature (any building more that 100' tall) needs to have its own fire fighting plan, and probably also in the case of larger buildings, its own internal fire department.
Our town of Richardton, North Dakota has a population of 600 people, and we have 25-40 people on our fire department. They get called out once or twice a year.
A building of 50,000 people needs its own fire department. Normally consisting of building employees, they should be hyper trained in fire response and management, and have built in fire fighting aparatus near at hand.
Finally, for any fire that was withing the design specifications of the building, (and that included some pretty heavy scenerios) a vertical evacuation of two floors above the fire floor, and one floor below the fire floor is sufficient. The design and construction of the building would have protected them, and an evacuation of the entire building would not have been necessary. So to that extent, the stairways *were* adequate.
Hindsight would now seem to dictate otherwise. Larger stairways, enclosed in armoured matrerials might have allowed evacuations of the floors above the fire floor, but as was seen, this was an event far beyond any possible design capacities. A 500 pound bomb, or even a 2000 pound bomb would not have dropped those buildings: and a nuclear bomb would destroy any building. This event was somewhere in between.
Elias
You are right about the safety factors involved in the design of the building, and I was shocked to see that there were only three narrow stairways for each tower.
All three stairways were clustered relatively close to one another in the center of each tower. Had they been dispersed nearer the corners of the towers, it's likely that at least one would have remained open in the north tower and hundreds of people would have escaped.
Also they used "drywall" (gasp) to surround the stairwells. That was a stupid decision for such a tall building. Even most short buildings I've been in have stairwells of concrete.
Actually, those stairways *were* remote to each other, since they were on different faces of the building core. Unfortunately, all modern buildings have their exit stairways in the core. The older law buildings do have them along the outer perimiter.
You are correct, it is time to revisit this issue, but do examine the floor plan of these buildings. Chances are that people would never find or even be able to access such remote stairways. They would be locked up inside of somebody's office space, or if not that, equally well hidden from rapid access.
Each of the four corners of the core needs to have an exit stairway, and this exit stairway needs to be protected from fire and reasonable impact. How resonaible can you get. Two to Four inches of depeted uranium armour would likely have protected the stairways during this attack,but is this an appropriate construction for a big city office building? Would re-inforced concrete have been sufficient?
IMO the building was well designed, and would have protected its occupants against any forseen eventuality short of a war.
Elias
Well said. :-)
The site should forever memorialize the dead of September 11th. Build all you want--twin towers or otherwise--but not there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The best memorial for the dead would be two new towers. Grand engineering projects such as the towers symbolize the greatness that is this country. Whithout such feats of greatness the terrorists win.
Event memorials can be summed up in one word...DEAD. As the years go by and the memories and survivors and famlies of survivors die, a memorial park WTC will become dead space. It will become run down and neglected. Passed by by pedstrians who will be using the underground concourses that you know will be built under the site the park will become the home of skateboarders (like LOVE park in philly). Its monumental DEADNESS and lack of economic activity will have most LIVING people buying and eating their lunch in nearby food malls like the Winter Garden. Every 20-30 years the park will see some renewal and will have the blocks of granite or whatever sandblasted and politians will make plans that will increase the use of the site, but they will never overcome the DEATH that will forever permeiate it.
What do you expect people to do at a giant tragity memorial? Kids won't play there. People won't want to eat or recreate there because it will be either disrespectful or creepy. Have you ever seen the World War I memorial in Washington DC? Its deserted. When all the Vietnam vets die and their immediate familes die the Vietnam wall will become similarly vacated aside from the slack jawed tourists following the self guided foot tour.
Where would you rather be burried? Some place where when people even bother to show up they are glum and quiet? Or some place where thousands of people work and live around you and where above you two massive boxes of steel reach for the sky in a giant middle finger to terrorism?
Thank you Jersey Mike!
"The site should forever memorialize the dead of September 11th. "
And it can do so even with buildings on it.
"Build all you want--twin towers or otherwise--but not there..."
A closed-minded approach which deliberately ignores a lot of very positive, constructive, helpful possibilities. Open your mind and your heart, Kevin.
You just made a lot of sense, Jersey Mike - though I had hoped you would say it more gently.
Kevin, for the most part I agree with your view (and the former Mayor's).
I have somewhat of a compromise: build smaller office towers BUT on the perimeter of the site. The actual former twin towers site should be dedicated to a memorial park (benches for meditation and a large miniature of the former World Trade Center site -- perhaps several stories tall, with lighting).
I think instead of a "perimeter" set-up, what the city really needs to do is to decide what they want to do between West and Greenwich streets and from Greenwhich to Church.
The footprints of WTC 1 and 2 both lie to the West of Greenwich. A memorial park in that area, which takes up about nine of the 16 acres, would be appropriate. But if the area east of Greenwhich to Church is also included in that, and nothing is built on the site, then you start to call into question much of a rationale for some of the grandiose transit hub plans down there. Why build that big a hub under that site, if all the job are gone? It's fine to rebuild PATH in the area -- they have no other downtown station and relocating it further east than Church would be a major ordeal -- but the other stops near around the WTC site will be more for tourists than workers from then on (and the bulk of downtown jobs will end up being east of Nassau Street, where, of course, there's only one subway, the IRT 2/3).
Tying together all of the downtown lines with transfer tunnels, and running a tunnel from the World Financial Center to Broadway is fine, but the underground pedestrian shopping area that has been discussed for the site also gets called into question if the entire site becomes a memorial. If there are no buildings above (at least east of Greenwich where do all the cutsomers come from? East of Broadway? Batter Park City? And would people want to be doing their shopping beneath a piece of land Giuliani called "a cemetery" in Time?
I'm still awaiting Larry Silverstein's reaction to all this, since he has a few billion tied up in the final decision. But I know if his 7 WTC building ends up as the only thing rebuilt on the site, they can take some of that $4.5 billion in downtown transit hub funds and put it into something more useful, like the Second Ave. subway, because there aren't going to be nearly enough people working right in that area to justify the plans they're discussing.
Let's make the entire WTC site a huge memorial. Lats make the south shore of Long Island a huge memorial to the victims of TWA #800. Let's turn the Rockaways into a huge memorial to the victims of Flight #587. While we're at it, lets turn pennsylvania into a real memorial for flight #93 victims and for the USAir Boing 737 that crashed there about 8 years ago. Then we can make the 14th St bridge in DC a national shrine.
Enough is enough. I agree that the families of the real heros that dies trying to rescue the victims of the WTC deserve a memorial but can someone explain to me how the victims of that criminal act all became heros.
(Enough is enough. I agree that the families of the real heros that dies trying to rescue the victims of the WTC deserve a memorial but can someone explain to me how the victims of that criminal act all became heros.)
You make a good point -- the word "hero" has been overused. A hero is someone who makes a sacrifice -- or at least takes a substantial risk -- on behalf of someone else. A "hero" is different than a "victim" or even a "survivor." There were heros on Sept. 11th, but also victims and survivors.
The families of the victims suffered a terrible loss. I think that those opposed to building on the site need to recognize that they are demanding that the rest of us continue to suffer as well.
Bravo! A great post.
You make a good point -- the word "hero" has been overused. A hero is someone who makes a sacrifice -- or at least takes a substantial risk -- on behalf of someone else. A "hero" is different than a "victim" or even a "survivor." There were heros on Sept. 11th, but also victims and survivors.
Not to sound churlish or anything, but I'd be cautious about bestowing the "hero" title on all of the firefighters and police officers who responded. No one on the face of the Earth had any inkling just how dangerous the response would be, as no one could anticipate that the towers would fall. It's doubtful whether there would have been many police or fire deaths had the towers remained standing.
Amen. I didn't personally know anyone who perished in the terrorist attack on our city. However, the brother of Ronald Bucca (One of the true hero's as reported in recent news reports) does work for me. Ron Bucca was the fire marshall was cited as one of two heros who went in and made it up to the 78th floor before the tower collapsed. His was a truely heroic act. One I could not see myself attempting even if I could run up 78 flights of stairs. To compare his bravery with with the acts of desperation on those who sought only to escape is a travesty. For the relatives of those who tried but could not escape to be suddenly empowered to the point where they will have a say and impact on the economic and social revival of the Battery park area is nothing more than another politically correct joke on the rest of us.
He doesn't, and you took him out of context.
He doesn't know that the office space can be made up elsewhere, because it really can't.
On the other hand, the new design competition for the site will probably balance living space with office space with cultural ande retail space, with a nicely done memorial. There is room enough for eveybody's concerns to be addressed.
No one has the unilateral right to worsen the damage done on 9/11/2002 by making sure people can't pursue their livelihoods in the nerve center of the region.
The best homage we can pay the dead, and the way we show them respect, is by allowing lower Manhattan to be reborn and by continuing the vital work they were pursuing.
I understand where you're coming from, Kevin, but your approach would seriously hurt a lot of living people without bringing anybody back from the dead. That is unacceptable. Counseling, support groups, and pursuing meaningful work for yourself while allowing others to rebuild their lives is an appropriate way to deal with this.
He also said "A soaring structure should dominate the site, taking its place along New York City's wonderful skyline."
I have to say one thing: I don't respect dead bodies nor the cemeteries that house them. If it were up to me, all cemeteries would be eligible for redevelopment. Cemeteries are a MONUMENTAL (no pun intended) waste of space.
As for what I would want to happen to my body when I die, I really don't give a rats ass. My mind is what makes me the individual that I am, without it, my body is a lump of meat as worthless as shares of Enron stock.
g: I don't respect dead bodies nor the cemeteries that house them. If it were up to me, all cemeteries would be eligible for redevelopment. Cemeteries are a MONUMENTAL (no pun intended) waste of space.
As for what I would want to happen to my body when I die, I really don't give a rats ass. My mind is what makes me the individual that I am, without it, my body is a lump of meat as worthless as shares of Enron stock."
I have to say that I agree with you. My parents have determined to donate their remains to a medical school, and have to wish to be burried anywhere.
I can see country cemeteries but in places like that the families living there are the same as the families burried there. Such is not the case inthe great New York cemetries.
But I do not believe that there is any way to change or redevelop these cemeteries.
OTH: the WTC site is not a cemetary. All remains human, and artifactual have been removed. Let the site be rebuilt!
Elias
"My parents have determined to donate their remains to a medical school, and have to wish to be burried anywhere."
Your parents' wish is a noble and supremely unselfish gesture. Future generations will benefit from their kindness.
"I have to say one thing: I don't respect dead bodies nor the cemeteries that house them. If it were up to me, all cemeteries would be eligible for redevelopment. Cemeteries are a MONUMENTAL (no pun intended) waste of space. "
In Britain they are actually doing that. Certain "green cemetaries are accepting softwood or cardboard containers with unembalmed bodies after funerals. When the cemetary is full, it is converted to a nature preserve for the benefit of the public. The bodies become fertilizer.
If they want to turn it into a cemetery, I will sue.
And if they want to build that 42nd Street trolley, I will sue there too.
The following came off washingtonpost.com. It is part of the Dr. Gridlock column for Sunday.
Metro Explains Why Trains Can Lurch
By Ron Shaffer
Sunday, September 1, 2002; Page C02
Dear Dr. Gridlock:
Are Metro trains driven by computer or a live driver? Whichever, sometimes the trains move like they were piloted by 16-year-old boys who just got their license.
They go from station to station with maximum acceleration followed by maximum braking, and when they arrive, they stop, restart with a jerk and stop again 10 feet from where they were, with another jerk.
One such performance knocked me clear off my feet when I was ready to get off. I'm afraid to take the Metro.
Johanna Stein
Cheverly
It doesn't seem to me that Metro riders should be routinely knocked off their feet while riding the rails. I'm interested in whether others consider this a problem and whether riders on other subway systems encounter the same phenomenon.
Metro spokeswoman Lisa Farbstein responds:
"Metrorail trains are automatically operated, and it is rare that they are operated manually.
"As you know, most of our trains operate very smoothly; however, at times a train may lurch or proceed with a sudden, abrupt movement. This could happen for a number of reasons, such as:
"1. There could be a mechanical situation that needs to be addressed;
"2. The brakes may need to be adjusted;
"3. The train may be operated manually, or
"4. Due to work on the tracks, there may be a temporary speed restriction that necessitates a train slowing."
How about this: Next time a lurching train knocks people to the floor, let me know the train number, car number, direction, the line, the time and the date, and I'll ask Metro for an explanation.
END (full column on washingtonpost.com)
From what I know, the train's ATO equipment detects the stop marker in the station for each number of cars (2, 4, 6, or 8), then sees how many cars the train has (entered in the train identity section of the console), calculates the distance between where the train is and the stop marker, and applies braking pressure as necessary. Sometimes, it realizes that the train is slowing down too much or not enough and has to change the application. Also, depending on the time of day, if the cab signals change from 59 to 35 because of a train stopped in a station, the train is going to slow down very abruptly. I am sure Ms. Stein would rather have an abrupt slow down as opposed to rear ending the train in front of hers. I will admit, the Rohr cars seem to be jerkier than the Bredas, perhaps because of their age. I am assuming Ms. Stein rides the Orange Line. As of late, there are more Rohrs on the Red Line than on the Blue/Orange lines.
Anyone suggest we send this all into the doctor and see what he says?
I read that article too. I don't ever remember being on a train that lurched so much as to feel that I was going to be knocked over. Sounds like she was embellishing things to have her article placed in the paper. Maybe if she was hanging on to the hold bars on either the backs of the seats, or most likely where this ditz was, at the poles by the doors which block everyone's entry and exit into the car, she wouldn't have fallen and go boom.
I prefer lurching rather than a collision.
Some of the T/Os really aren't that great but most are OK. She should go to NYC and see what happens there. I would say that at least once every time I am in the city I get one T/O who has some really lurchy stops. I am sure if someone tried to explain how it all worked to her, maybe she would understand just a little more, but it wouldn't matter.
You use the Orange Line more than I do, what are the numbers of Rohrs out there? It seems at the time I go in the morning, every train on the Red Line in my direction is a Rohr. I may have gotten a Breda about 5 times from last September until June.
That's the problem with a lot of metro riders, unfortunately. Some are so spoiled and are in that 'me first' mentality, that the least bit of inconvenience is a national emergency. You're right, they should try some of the other systems that are more crowded, etc. and see how good they really have it here. Run the metro system 24 hours a day and it would be great.
On weekends, definitely there are mainly Bredas on the Orange. During the week, it seems that there are a lot of Rohrs on there, but there are a number of Bredas that appear. I dont want to say its 50/50, but the chances of getting a Breda trainset is more common than Rohr. I see a lot of Rohrs on the Blue/Yellow lines as well. I noticed the high amount of Rohrs on the Red line as well, even on late weekend nights.
i do not understand y it matters what time of day different types run because i dont thik wmata pays attention to type
they care more about train numbers and signals than manufacturers
Since the Rohr cars are almost 30 years old and the Breda cars are a lot newer and that weekend and weeknighs the trains run much less frequently, why not let the older trains catch a break and put the newer ones on. Thats what I meant by seeing the older ones a lot on weekends, especially late at night. I don't care what the train is as long as it gets me to where I'm going. I don't take it as much as I used to.
Rohrs on the Yellow? I have seen those but it is pretty rare. The only thing that is rarer is seeing a Rohr on the Green Line. I think a few Rohrs are at Alexandria but Greenbelt is only Breda and CAF. Actually, the last time I saw a Rohr on the Green Line was more recent than when I saw one on Yellow, but I don't spend too much time on those lines. The Yellow was all Breda yesterday from what I saw.
Once, I got on a 6 car Green Line train with two Rohrs on each end and a Breda set sandwiched in between. Talk about strange!
Although WMATA hasn't really tried grouping cars together for many years, I think they are about to start again. Here is what I think is going on right now.
1000s-Concentrated on Red and Orange Lines, some at Alexandria for Blue
2000s-Concentrated at Alexandria and Greenbelt
3000s-Scattered system wide
4000s-Concentrated at Alexandria and a significant number at Greenbelt, a few are at the other yards
5000s-All at Greenbelt and all are going there until further notice. I think the overflow goes to the Red Line and in turn, overflow of Bredas/Rohrs goes to the Orange. Finally, the Blue gets whatever is left of the older cars.
6000s-On order but these have been earmarked for the Blue Line for the Largo extension.
If WMATA wanted to make the yards all have only one type of car, I would have the 5000s at Greenbelt and the 1000s at Alexandria. Yellow would be all Rohr (I have reason to believe it has the fewest passengers) and the Blue Line would get the leftover Rohrs and either the 2000 or 4000 series Bredas (not all of either series if fewer than 1000 are needed). The remaining Bredas would be for the Red and Orange Lines. The only problem with this is the Rohr seating layout isn't the best for suitcases. One could also concentrate the Rohrs on the Red Line, which seems to be what is going on now, since the Red Line has twice the capacity of the other lines.
I see the Rohr's on the Yellow from time to time and once in a great while on the Green, but that is very few and far between. I was on a Rohr tonight on the Red Line from White Flint to Metro Center and saw a few pass by on the other side headed to Shady Grove. The Orange was running mostly Bredas. I didn't see any Blue Line trains. The Red Line also had a lot of the 2000 series Bredas. The only line I've never seen a 2000 is the Orange Line.
I guess as more of the 5000 series CAF's are accepted and placed in to service, the Bredas will be scattered across the other lines as well. I was on a 31xx Breda earlier on the Red and saw a few on the other side. Today was a lame day for transit watching being that it was all Sunday scheduled service. Very crowded though.
I got car 4000 this morning on the Red Line. The train in front of mine I think was a Rohr, I could hear the AC motors from quite a ways away. I also think the train behind mine was a Rohr, but I didn't really look (I get off at an above ground station). The trains I saw heading in the other direction were a mix.
I think the T/Os changed schedules again. I had a different person on my train this morning and one of the ones who used to be on one of my 4 daily trains was heading in the other direction when I got on.
I got car 4000 this morning on the Red Line. The train in front of mine I think was a Rohr, I could hear the AC motors from quite a ways away. I also think the train behind mine was a Rohr, but I didn't really look (I get off at an above ground station). The trains I saw heading in the other direction were a mix.
I think the T/Os changed schedules again. I had a different person on my train this morning and one of the ones who used to be on one of my 4 daily trains was heading in the other direction when I got on.
I forgot to add, 4000 did have some of the same lurches that the Rohr cars have when we stopped. I highly doubt the person who wrote that letter to Dr. Gridlock takes the Red Line to Silver Spring or Grosvenor. Whenever the switch is set there, it is always a rough stop. Now she could be refering to riding through D&G Junction or Rosslyn, probably the former.
The Orange Line constantly has to move up when it enters Court House heading towards Vienna. I don't know if the computer is thinking that it is a four car train instead of a 6 or what may be the case, but almost all the times we have to pull up almost a car length.
The junction at Rosslyn seems pretty smooth, though, considering its switching at a pretty fast clip. The Orange Line switch is bumpier since its taking a sharper curve than the blue line, which doesn't curve until after its been in the tunnel for awhile.
I think people just like to get people at metro in trouble!! Too bad she couldn't have provided more detail like the line she was on, the station she got off, the time, the train number. I just yawned when reading her diatribe.
Good old Ms Johnson from the WMATA public affairs office needs to be in this discussion with "Dr Gridlock" (Wash Post)
I haven't heard Ms. Johnson quoted for some time but I think she is still with them. I met her once, she is a really nice person.
WAMTA had an Assistant General Manger Rail (later promoted to deputy general manager) who wouldn't let the operators run the trains on manual mode.
On one wintry night with wet rails, a red line train overshot the last stop on the red line (Shady Grove) and crashed into a parked train. The operator was killed and passengers were hurt. Prior to the last stop, trains were overrunning stations on the above ground portions.
One of the outcomes of the collision was that operators were told to operate in the manual mode at least once a week in case of emergencies. I don't know if this rule is still observed.
Michael
Washington, DC
That was different. The management in this case did not feel that it was in the best interest of the passengers' safety to run manually under the conditions. This has nothing to do with the issue we were discussing, lurches when the trains stop.
WMATA trains are in automatic mode while in revenue service except:
When there are problems with the relays or ATO equipment either trackside or on board the train
When the train is in restricted mode (manual, no more than 15 MPH, cab signals at 0) in order to platform at a station when the cab signal reads 0 due to another train in front of it and the train is not fully in the station or just outside the station
Under special circumstances such as icy weather when permission is requested and granted from the OCC
I do not work for WMATA but these appear to be the policies.
I don't know if anyone else has a problem with this, but I regularly have to reboot Navigator whenever in Subtalk. The page is apparently too much for my browser. I have Navigator using 20MB RAM as it is. Hopefully, when I install my new G4 in a few weeks, the problem will be moot...that baby has 512MB of RAM to play with.
Till then, if anyone has any suggestions...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Have you tryed putting the forum to Display messages that were posted within a day? Maybe that will change it.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Have you tried using IE? It could work better.
Arti
That's strange. IE eventually came up with something about my cookies years ago and wouldn't let me view the page. Something along the lines I hadn't viewed the page recently enough. I switched over to NS and haven't had the issue since. Never had speed related issues though...
I've had a number of problems too. They appear to come from two sources: one, the Amazon banner, and two, something that is causing multiple cookies to be stored. Every once in a while I clear the cache, quit, and restart, and that seems to settle it for a while at least.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For all the bitching people do about Microsoft products, Netscape 4 was the last decent non-MS browser. Time Warner even tells their employees that they don't have to use it, and it is quite telling that AOL's interface is still based on IE.
-Hank
Maybe it was the last decent Netscape browser. I use nothing but Opera except for the occasional buggy web page that I absolutely must see.
what version of netscape do you have ?
i did not like #6 it was horrible deleted it big time !!!
do you use internet explorer ??
what version of netscape do you have ?
i did not like #6 it was horrible deleted it big time !!!
You're not alone in thinking Netscape 6 was rubbish. I used Netscape until 3 days after getting Netscape 6.
Any pictures????
No. I was not in Fort Worth when this last trip happen. I have to search the web in the next three weeks to find any.
Has anyone tried to log onto SEPTA's website this afternoon? If so, are you getting the same thing I'm getting? Each time I tried to log on, it would seem to take forever for the page to load, then I would get the "Page Cannot Be Displayed" screen. I have cable Internet connection, so I'm assuming that it's not a problem with my computer or connection. I'm trying to get a copy of the R5 commuter rail schedule, and schedules of buses from 69th Street that serve the Narberth area.
Same thinf for me, "page cannot be displayed". I just got a new computer , so I don't think it's me.
Chuck Greene
I got the same result this morning. The SEPTA website is observing Labor Day by going on strike.
That must have been it. It's up today. Didn't bother to explore to see if the down time was for massive update.
I spent a few days in New York last week after my round trip cruise on the QE2 to England. Since I've ridden most of the subway routes and most of the Manhattan bus routes, I decided to go to some museums.
One of them was the Museum of the City of New York @5th Avenue and 103rd street. There is a photo exhibit on "The Last Days of Penn Station" by Aaron Rose.
The photographer snuck into the station during the demolition and shot away (his camera). The film sat in his camera for 3 decades before being developed, and now on display through October 6. Admission is $12.
Michael
Washington, DC
I saw this exhibit. It is great. But I think the film actually sat in his fridge, not in his camera :)
--Brian
Too bad they can't keep that exhibit up for a few more weeks.
What are the Requirements of being a Amtrak Engineer? I think I've asked this question before, but I had forgotten. I want this position when I get out of High School, so I can work the NEC or anything in the Eastern Part of the USA. I want to operate the Acela Express, the Phase V P42 & AEM-7 Locomotives. Thanks!
-AcelaExpress6250
Amtrak Modeling
Checked the MTA website today and they announced that the test will be O/C. Filing period will be from 5/7/03-5/27/03.
Testing
if any1 is bored post here
everyone is board, and they do post here. :P
Does anybody know if TA time is unified, ie all metrocard checkers and metrocard machines have the same time so no discrimination is given toward a metrocard? This excludes those new overhanging signs on some platforms that display the date and time since I've already seen those way too fast or too slow. And while I'm at it, is it also true that TA time is 2 minutes BEHIND real time to help people to not miss their bus/train? And then, are the bus/train schedules based on real time or TA time?
TA time seems to be the same as the time checks given on any of the news radio stations (within seconds). It also seems to be the same time that NYC DOT uses for the SI Ferry.
I know that LIRR used to have a public timetable (published- pick it up in the station) and an employee timetable.
I seem to recall that the employee timetable is a minute behind the public one. You have no complaint coming if you miss your train.
Elias
71/Continental has several clock displays around the various platforms.
While I haven't been there in about 2 years, it wasn't unusual to see
the various displays way off from one another. Particularly mind-boggling
was when two back-to-back displays were two minutes off.
That's what I mean and that's why I excluded those things. I originally thought they would announce a train coming on a track rather than just sit there, be dull, and make a usually useless announcement every once in a while.
>>> TA time seems to be the same as the time checks given on any of the news radio stations (within seconds) <<<
But the time displays are not synchronized, so it all depends on the accuracy of various timepieces. I remember how impressed I was with the Deutsches Bundesbahn the first time I rode it in the ‘60s. There were several clocks on the platforms of the stations. The second hands on every clock in a station marched ahead in unison every second, and if you started a stop watch at one station and rode to another, you would discover that clocks in the second station, right down to the second hand were synchronized with the first station.
Tom
That's something you would never see in Italy, where schedules are only suggestions.
The clocks aren't perfectly synchronized. I once boarded an M5 bus and then entered the subway at 33rd Street just barely under 2 hours and 18 minutes later (by a few minutes), yet I was charged a second fare. But that's what the 18 minutes is there for -- the TA only guarantees a free transfer within 2 hours.
So far as I've been able to tell the TA does not use synchronized time at its terminals. This lack was one of the reasons that the 30 tph test failed on the Flushing line last April. There are two rush hour terminals that are essentially inserting trains onto the tracks at random times. The requirement for delay free merges at Rawson St is that trains must be within 30 seconds of schedule. The clock in the Main St dispatcher's office does not have a seconds display - it's was also off by 33 seconds from NIST time on the test date.
NIST time?
NIST = National Institute of Standards and Technology. Formerly called the National Bureau of Standards.
We did this back then - there is a system sychronized clock (blue digital display w/ seconds) in every dispatcher's office. Whether YOU the passenger can see it is a different story. I can sync my watch at one terminal and still have it be accurate at the other end.
The turnstiles communicate with the TA mainframe to verify what time it is, so if the Station Computer is off by a specific number it re-sets itself to the mainframe time. Same system exists for Depot Computers, and therefore the fareboxes in the buses.
So, they all march to the same drummer, so long as he keeps the beep everything is just fine.
Huh???
I belive he is saying the turnstiles and and comptuers in the booths talk to the Station Computer who in turn connects to the MAINFRAME the TA uses. The Depot (Bus) computers sync with the fareboxes. The Depot comptuers talk to the TA mainframe. When they sync up they use the mainframe time. Now the Station Computer polls the turnstiles and booth PC's, they aren't connected 100% of the time, same with the fare boxes, they only update when servicee so there can be time slippage if you will but in theroy fare collection should all have the same time as the TA Mainframe.
RTO on the other hand it seems go by whatever the disptacher's watch is set to but I've heard Control call out the time just like WCBS does on the hour.
When you hear the time-tone's "bong!" at the top of the hour on WCBS, that's exact = NIST time. You can now buy clocks and watches that capture NIST time as broadcast from Earth-orbiting satellites. (I have one in my home broadcast studio, which is how I can "back-time" to the top-of-the-hour announcement on WCBS, which is triggered automatically at 59:10 past the hour.)
[back on topic]
Note that the WCBS time-tone "bong!" is not the same as neither the R-46's door-closing "bing" nor "bong."
Actually, the home and even wristwatch NIST clocks don't synch to satellites--they synch to WWVB from Fort Collins (on 60 kHz). I have one in my ham shack and it's great.
Another thing to note is that while WCBS' time is indeed dead-balls-accurate, some other stations are not. For example, WABC's top-o-the-hour time tones are run through the 7-ish second delay and actually sound around 00:0675 or so.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty, W2IRT
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Soon!
NIST Clocks run off of a very very accurate atomic clock.
In fact it is too accurate, or rather it is more accurate than the roatation of the earth. NIST must be periodoically adjusted against Naval Observatory time which measures earthly movement over months, but is not as precise as NIST time on a minute to minute basis.
It is all on the NIST web site, and very intersting too.
Elias
It's amazing how you can lock into WWVB 60 Kc....I do not remember the transmitter type or power level but I would not be surprised if it was 10 Kw or less. WWV 2.5/5/10/20/25 were all Technical Materiel Corp. GPT-10Ks run at about 3500 watts coming out of a 4CX10000B running AME.
Years ago before microprocessor borne clocks, there were several kits and devices to lock into major television network clocks through your color TV. The networks use Cesium or Rhubidium time bases for network syncronisation. Twenty dollar big number clock from Sams Club works so much better...TA clocks in my yard are three minutes fast!
I can run 1000 watts AME from a pair of boiled 572B/TTL160s on eighty into a Collins Radio tape dipole. I like power...it is ...nice.
CI Peter.....WB2 Subway General Tecnician.
There's a difference between precise interval timing (Cesium clock, for example) and precise synchronization with an external time reference like NIST. Generally, applications will require one or the other, not both. The TA is an example of needing synchronization and not interval timing (an error of up to a second is Ok).
If you want both, things get a bit more interesting. Here are pictures of one of my toys. This uses Cesium as a primary reference, and has two Rubidium secondary sources in case of failure of the primary. But it also has a GPS interface to provide wall time as well as interval time. It has a variety of outputs - the main ones are 1.544MHz pulses for network element timing and NTP for time synchronization.
With one of these, you can easily see how bad most broadcast stations are at providing accurate time information. Sorry, it isn't portable, so I'm not going to check the TA's various clocks 8-)
Cesium source:
Rubidium sources, GPS, timing and control:
Network timing and synch is voodo! Talking ppm. Pretty
amazing when T-1 clocks from completely different network
providers run together with almost no slip. Keeping TA clocks
synchronized at the level of precision required for running
trains is basically 1940s technology. All sorts of systems
tried over the years. With intranet connected PCs springing up
at dispatcher and ATD offices, you'd think NTP-accurate time
would be a no-brainer.
It's always fun to hear the time-beep come over the radio from Command Center. Eight guys all fumble for their watches in concert.
Know this stuff...built the equipment used for WWV. Problem is I work for TA now...no sync...intranet is restricted and limited linkage amonst sites...punch clocks must come from Staples.
I was always proud of the way my rubidium clock on my TV truck (with yellow and purple nuclear warning stickers on it) would keep fools off my truck. Ah, for the days before cheapa$$ frame synchronizers and chroma lock to a network where your 3.579545 was real. :)
3.5795452658.....crystal used to make a nice direct conversion receiver for W1AW code practice sessions on eighty meters. I'd zero beat the receiver against a color TV and W1AW would have an 800 cycle CW note when they went on the air! CI Peter is WB2SGT
Heh. Much easier for me, we just passed along burst and happy days. :)
Gotcha...serious stuff 3.5795452658 color bursts. My brain is still alive...still can pass the 'TA flashlight test.' Happiest days were when you could open up an FT-243 quartz crystal holder and polish the slab with BonAmi to bring it up in frequency...mom bitched because of the figure-eight engraved upon the kitchen mirror. Just found a NEC 1000 Kc reference used for TMC receiver time bases...may never find the pin outs. Never went to sleep early tonight...FOURTY shoe beam current collectors to check tonight. Sleeping in my car outside the yard unarmed.....is crazy. Sleeping in my car within the yard and waking up to hop tracks...is crazier! CI Peter
Heh. Coconut paste made for a nice tweakup for some International Crystal rocks as well. PLL's sure rained on THAT parade. Heh.
Even on an Intranet, it is possible to run NTP - either an internal source can be used, or the firewall(s) can permit NTP, at least between a well-known outside source and an internal NTP server.
The TA has tried a number of systems and apparently abandoned all of them. The older (non-LED) clocks at the 10-car marker can still be seen at places like 71st/Continental, but I haven't seen a working one in some time.
The fiber optic network that was put in for MetroCard was alleged to be able to support time and message displays (I think the multicolor LED-based signs started appearing about the same time) but I've never seen one of those signs doing anything useful - they either have the wrong time or a silly "Welcome to the MTA" message.
This isn't rocket science. Even using 1950's era "school clocks" with an hourly correction signal sent over the radio would suffice.
Interesting that you mention the 50's clocks. I saw the innards of one once...two or three tubes and a handful of parts...set itself on the hour...Western Union used them. CI peter
When I arrive at a local trolley museum I compair my Wendy's Snoopy give-a-way watch with Sparky time, because no matter what time it realy is we have to run by Sparky time < G >
Correct! : )
The clocks at the Abbey might not be right, but they are the once we go by. (Our master clock has a wooden pendelum that can be affected by humidity.)
Elias
Ooooo ... owwwww ... somebody's gonna be sweeping the carbarn for that one. :)
Here is another pip.' NIST time is what we used to call 'metrological' or 'lab time,' formerly available only on semi'sophisticated receivers with external loop antennas tuned to 60 Kc. What these receivers did was to provide an accurate time base to calibrate frequency counters and the like. Hams calibrate counters by 'zero beating' the 1 or 10 Mc. time base against a receiver picking up WWV...problem is that you cannot hear below say 100 cycles.
OLD TMC SBE-2 exciters with VFO had a neon bulb that would flash so you could really see the 'beat.'
GPS has its own time base which may be sync'd with NIST...it still is military. The time differential between the two is so miniscule to even consider...propagation and distance (speed of light) is automatically set by the system....the most important function of the GPS syncronus orbit satellites is to maintain time sync between themselves for accurate position measurements (and your 99 dollar GPS handheld displays correct time 24 hours a day sans being in basements while most of our WWVB receivers work only in 'dark hours.') CI Peter
Looking at the railfan window, I frequently see the sign GT 25, and then the yellow over S signal. If it is a car I'm in that I can see the speed through the door of the cab, I would find something like 18 or 19. Now I understand that running a red light can get a T/O fired, by why are T/O run the train at a speed so far below the guideline in order to clear the signal, especially when it is a 2-shot signal, ie if you miss the yellow-over-S, it isn't the end of the world, as you can just slow down for the next signal. I can understand that you wouldn't want to run the train at exactly the speed given, but I figure after passing a GT 25, a speed like 23 seems ideal. If you end up going into BIE after passing a red light, can't you just report the speed you were going at, especially with the R142/R143 which I've heard actually monitors what the T/O is doing. The timers to me seem to give the T/O a lot of "lee way" as long as they approach them correctly. And so I humbly ask: Why do T/Os tend to approach timers almost too cautiously, and many times have them clear far in front of them, especially when they are 2-shot ones?
First of all, the Motorman probably knows that the real signal time doesn't always reflect the GT speed displayed on the signal. Also, being an employee for the Authority for over twenty years, you learn not to attempt to defend yourself by stating that you were going under the prescribed speed. Your second question asks, "why not just slow down for the second signal if the first one doesn't clear to green as you pass it?" If you pass the first signal faster than the signal is set up to clear a penalty is placed on the second signal which will just about bring you to a screaching halt before it clears. A seasoned Motorman knows the idiosyncracies of the timer signals in a particular zone and adjusts his speed accordingly and thus creating a smooth ride through the entire timed area.
I hope this is of help to you.
"Also, being an employee for the Authority for over twenty years, you learn not to attempt to defend yourself by stating that you were going under the prescribed speed."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, I know a T/O who used this argument to his favor. He hit a home signal on an R-142, and the event recorder showed that the T/O was indeed doing 5 mph where the posted speed was "GT 10". Of course, he's "from the street", so that might be the reason they were so easy on him.
When I retired in 1991 the technology of aircraft black boxes had not reached the Transit Authority.
Can a grade timer trigger the emergency brakes if a train passes it at too great of speed?
#3 West End Jeff
Only if passed on red.
GT's don't measure speed, they measure TIME the train pass certain points (signals).
Wheel Detectors (WD) actualy measure speed of the train.
There is excellent discriptions of GT's and WD's here on nycsubway.org, look it up.
Grade Timers are very elegant, simple devices.
Of course, it would be nice if their timing was set up accurately.
Please stop this before David starts saying they are correctly set up again.
Affirmative
#3 West End Jeff
Who, me? When did I ever say they were accurate? What I said was that in the newer installations they're actually set for a clearing speed HIGHER than the posted speed. I also said they could slip from their settings, as attested to by "Jeff H."
David
That's true but the distance or time between two signal equates to the speed the signal clears at, hence, GT25 etc.
Only if the signal is at danger as you pass it. The next signal after the clear timer has a penalty placed on it if you pass it without it clearing to green and if you don't have your train under control and are unable to stop that signal will remain red and put you in emergency.
Is one of those idiosyncracies the fact that in the Canarise tube you can charge the signal and have it clear in your side window, and if so, why is that?
I hate to use the word every but... the stop arm comes down right before the signal clears on some signals it is very pronounced so if you are very aggressive you never see the red clear.
A logical explanation.
"If you pass the first signal faster than the signal is set up to clear a penalty is placed on the second signal which will just about bring you to a screaching halt before it clears."
Thank you. That answers a lot of mysteries about T/O behavior.
Two reasons:
1) 98% of the timers fail to clear at the posted speed. 5 mph below is a general rule of thumb. Ideally, a T/O should be able to see the yellow S timer change to green before he/she passes it.
2) Overrunning a signal can mean a significant financial hardship (i.e. no pay for 1 to 6 weeks). Railfans may think that it's a bummer to see these T/O's going slow, but for us this is SERIOUS stuff. The TA is NOT playing around!!! The TA will come down on a T/O extremely hard if he/she were to mess up.
I agree with you 100 %.
You know, some of these Railfans think us T/O's are playing a video game that they get to watch for $1.50.
Exactly. I can understand that a railfan may be disheartened by a lack of speed (sometimes I am too), but railfans out there need to understand that there are serious ramifications that can result if one screws up.
It's not like the 1970's where you could hit a homeball and get a warning. Do it again and get maybe 3 days in the street. Now it's heavy time being doled out by Jay St. And if you're brand new (off the street) and hit a homeball, you'll probably be unemployed by the end of the day.
FWIW, if you hit a homeball in the 70's and didn't have a car inspector to back you up that there were "mechanical difficulties" they'd throw the book at you then too. It's just that with so many bad orders in revenue service, you could usually prove that it wasn't your fault. The warning was "you'd better figure that in when you apply." But at minimum, you'd have a motor instructor under your bed at night for a few weeks to "regroove you" or you'd go on restrictions. Slapping Homey upside the head was still a bad thing, even then. :)
You're so wrong when you say, "And if you're brand new (off the street) and hit a homeball, you'll probably be unemployed by the end of the day". In fact, the very opposite is true. That's why there's so much animosity towards us from some of the veterans.
I came out in a class of about 54, and at least 12 of my classmates have hit a homeball. One guy hit one leaving E.180 on M track last week. He's on the platform and I expect him to be on the road within two to three weeks.
Another guy hit an automatic during his first week out. A few weeks later, he hit a homeball entering E.180. He was put back in service, without even being retrained. And these examples are just the tip of the iceburg. This is why I sometimes have to listen to angry veterans who complain about the discipline they or their co-workers have received while "off the street" T/O's are allowed to hit Homeballs without even a day in the street.
And when it comes to the Canarsie line, we railfans are absolutely right!
5? TSS slick Joey from school car had us doing 7-8 lower and letting it clear to green for sure.
Maybe 5 less for GT 15's.
That is one bet I would not like to make.
Some things never change ... and yes, your madman Joey was reading from the book. I've confessed often to being TIMID on the road, when you were about to get twitchy passing a timer, you'd end up doing a literal "brick wall" stop. Something to be avoided at all costs since the TA-issued geese spatula was only good for a few uses. With those "Buster Brown shoes" clasping the wheels THESE days, I'd reduce speed more than I used to. If you were my follower, you'd want to get your fingers around my neck. :)
The timers themselves are not super-accurate. Maybe +/- 10 %.
Not only is there some variance where mechanical timers are used,
but differing track relay response times and imprecision in
calibrating the timer can throw it off. It can vary from day
to day. The speedometers themselves are not very accurate,
I'd say +/- 2 MPH. Add those together and 5 MPH is a conservative
speed.
I can attest to how strict they are on T/O's who hit signals
2 weeks no pay and a demotion.
I noticed in an earlier post that WMATAOAGH(hopefully i got that right w/o spell checking) mentioned a new batch of 6000 series cars slated to run on the blue line. Has metro started accepting bids from rail car manufacturers or are they the second batch of CAF cars that metro has previously ordered?
Alstrom. In about four years to arrive on property.
Alstom got it (this should be interesting). It is 64 cars (minimum needed for Largo extension) with an option for up to 120 more (to start making 8 car trains again). Options on MetroRail cars do not get new series numbers. If WMATA decides to order another set after 6062 and 6063 (remember, the first car will be 6000 unless WMATA decides to change their numbering system), they will get numbered 6064 and 6065 and so on. The option on the CAF cars is still numbered in the 5000 series.
Beautiful mint condition stock certificate - eBay 1376534246; auction closes in a few hours.
Yabba, Dabba, Doo...
Hey Dougie (heh heh)
Whoopie Goldie-bong-doggy-do-dah also.
They dont remember the real BMT as the "BMT" - and the BRT is before ALL our time (1898 to 1918) and Kings County Elevated RR ---ummmm, ahhh, lessee --think it died and was taken over by BRT in 1899 or so, yeah, mon, just around the corner from yesterday (heh)--of our grandparents' parents days !!
Yepper, real valuabe stock certificates -- hope they sell --- most of us dont remember the KCERR too well, now, do we? Hey, when yo coming over t' my place..been a while--or have you been following our
heavy daily nostalgic flow lately?
Regards - Unca Joe
NYCTM Group
BMT El gate Motor Car # 620 leads a BMT El local train to a station stop somewhere on an EL in the Bronx----ooops, ---IN BROOKLYN (heh heh)
Hey, Unca Joe! I know I've strayed from the flock....but I'll be back. Actually, I was over at the OGR site last night, but I didn't find the need to post. You did quite well on your own explaining to the novices about why you think K-Line will not enter into the O-gauge subway arena...very good posts BTW....see you at your site shortly.
Hello Dougie----(burpppp)
Yes, I tried to guide those foamers there whose lips are too welded to that center 3rd rail - that because of the sound and control system differences
between K-Line & MTH (MTH being a system to its own and only self) - persons with MTH subway sets would find operation with a K-Line set (sound and control systems) balky and problematic, unless the K Line set ran on its own track with its own command and sound control controller base.
If any of the others like K-Line ---sharing Lionels sound and control TMCC system did subway sets (Ie: Weaver, Williams, Lionel) perhaps K Line might do one set. Aside from that I guess K-Line might feel its just too small a nitch for K Line being as MTH has already eaten up a lot of subway fan pesos $$$ with the already-produced and mostly sold-out 5 different sets, and add on sets -- and how many subway sets will the average "railroad layout" modeler buy after wanting maybe one or two sets for a small "representative-subway-line- on their predominately steam & diesel RR layouts ???
Would I like to see K-Line produce an O-Scale-Gauge aluminum IRT R-62 set, sure would !!! Maybe my prodding postings and such will "irk" them to take a shot (but I REALLY doubt it --heh )
Yeah, Doug, 3750 views-hits to my OGR Topic Forum after on 75 days since I started that thread (June 18) - so I must be doing something right there !!
It MUST be all the pictures I posted there !!!
Regards - Unca Joe
Here's another old BMT-ish Pic for you - and you were there to see it !! (Enjoyed the visit)
BMT Blue Bird Articulated 8001 seen at an EL Local Station in Brooklyn--Doug D is at the controls of the Blue Bird on the despised Cinestron Controller - fore-runner of the Joy Stick controller of today ! He would rather be in the cab of a wood Gate EL Car !!
Hey, Joe! I don't see an O-gauge Heypaul pressed up against the railfan window!!! ;)
If MTH keeps selling out while people still WANT sets and then doesn't spew out some more to satisfy pent up demand to EBay's benefit, maybe there IS something for K-Line to sell. It's not like these are great economic times. Vendors have been known to get hungry for anything they CAN move in times like this. Since MTH apparently won't, ya never know.
Sure wish someone would do subway cars in N gauge ...
MOOOOOOOOoooooo----HEY---Kevin---
THEY DID DO NY SUBWAY CARS IN N SCALE --REMEMBER WHEN I SENT YOU THE Website PHOTO AND MANUFACTURER LINKS---a few months ago...but YOU want EACH CAR for $3.95 each motorized and with paint and interiors and working lights inside and out...and thats only in YO DREAMS Homie---
Your favorite cars - the R-32 and R-62 cars WERE made in N scale ---but YOU need a job that allows a few extra pesos coming in--for your desired subway sets like everyone else has that buys 'em...and they do get sold out, you know, pretty quickly !!! (heh heh)--I think its time for you to get back to the radio broadcast $$$$ business again (heh)
(Kevin, I tried to not squeeze 'em too hard --but you are tough !!)
MOOOOOOooooo (OINK--er)
REGARDS - UNCA JOE !!!
I was looking at pictures of pre-GOH R-44s and R-46s, and it looks like the side destination signs had the Letter in the middle, not on one side like current side signs. Does anyone have a clear picture of this?
R-44 MU's had originally from the factory a bullet in the middle of the mylar roller curtain, and with terminals on either side.
R-46 MU's had originally from the factory a bullet on the end, in a more updated Arial font.
Yeah....I remember those R-46 signs....had the route letter on the left and the two terminals one above the other to the right. Tourists who didn't know any better sometimes got the impression that the two terminals were actually one destination, as there was nothing separating the two lines of print.
I saw R44 cars with the original R46 type rollsigns in the 1980's. Not all, but many.
R40-46 had this(actually i am not sure that the 46s ever had them), in the late 70s through the 80s they were replaced with signs similar to the R68s
The R-46 NEVER had a center bullet mylar roller curtain.
The R40-42-44 had this type of sign, with the route bullet in the middle. The R46 did not. It's original signs had the old color bullet on the left, which was displayed on a white square. Next to this the northern terminal was displayed on top, and the southern on the bottom. Inside, a strip map like the ones on the R142/143 could be seen (no lights though). These signs started to be replaced in 1984/5 with signs showing the bullet on an all black background, as well as showing the new 1979 colors, the "diamond" rush hour bullet as well as the new, single lettered routes. However, there were several R46 cars which kept their original rollsigns into 1987. They were gone by the time the N/R swapped Queens routes.
Here's a pic of the type of sign you are referring to on a new R42 (Beware Steve, it's the R10/42 abomination pic you hate):
Thanks for the picture. Anyone know why they switched the bullet to one side?
I remember those R-42 signs as well. They were still in use during the late 70s. I swallowed hard before looking at that pic.:) Lucky for me I never saw that lashup in person. I would have had a stroke.
By the 1980's, most, if not all R42's had cheap black & white side rollsigns. The slants got the colored ones like the R44/46's did.
I found some images of the R160s on the ALSTOM website. Is this what they are going to look like or is this the images of the R143s that they used.
Link: http://www.transport.alstom.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&inifile=futuretense.ini;futuretense_xcel.ini&c=at_article&cid=1027873683549&rid=996826515305&pid=996826515900
Rob
The exterior concept photo montage makes it look like they're dropping the cra off the GE building (I thought that was reserved for the R-142s if they have one more pull-apart...)
It is interesting that when you open the .doc file on the webpage, from the specs given it seems as if the bulk of the order appears to be designed to go to the Eastern Division, since the webpages states "85-4 car units and 64-5 car units," which translates into 32 10-car trains and 42 8-cars units with one spare 5-car unit, unless they decide to start running a whole bunch of nine-car trains on the IND and the BMT Southern Division.
"85-4 car units and 64-5 car units," which translates into 32 10-car trains and 42 8-cars units with one spare 5-car unit
That would be one spare 4-car unit. I was thinking that might be for da Franklin Shuttle, but on second thoughts that's a car too long or something.
That would mean the eastern division will be completely R143/160 by 2007. It would make sense that the facility which is now equipped to handle these new cars would get them first (ENY).
Those pics are R143's with the black removed. You can even see the outline of where the black used to be in those pics.
There seem to be a couple of inconsistencies in the Word document labeled "New York City metro characteristics," a file which contains the basic statistics of the new cars, cars destined for the B division if I'm not mistaken.
"Power supply : 780 VDC
Number of doors per side : 3 and 1 door at each end"
Can anyone explain this?
Dan
Number of doors per side : 3 and 1 door at each end
It means you can pass through end doors. If you look at the design I think there's going to be a railfan window. It has the semi-blind look of the R11-42 cars. pray everyone. Pray.
.
Number of doors per side : 3 and 1 door at each end
It means you can pass through end doors.
Yes, but B division equipment has had 4 doors/side and one at each end since the R-1 and, unless the MTA is going to resurrect the patented interior design of the BMT Standards which allowed loading/unloading of passengers at the same rate as later R-type equipment, I doubt that the 3 doors/side figure is correct.
Dan
I think it would kind of suck for Alstom if they got it wrong and put only 3 door openings. Maybe they're looking at the 142's and thinking they're all the same in NY.
When a company builds a subway car they go through drawings to see what it should look like. The company(In this case Alstom and Kawasaki)co operates and draws a model they can agree on. Once they do that then they make a scale model which has to be exact to the model their going to build. Then they construct the actual car. It goes through a few test run then is introduced to general service. Thats how a train is born.
I don't think so. How do you explain the differences between the R142/R142As, R68/R68As, and R62/R62As?
>>I don't think so. How do you explain the differences between the R142/R142As, R68/R68As, and R62/R62As? <<
When I posted that I was tired. So let me correct myself. The companies only agree on the design the train should take and a few other features on the train. Besides that the R160 and R160A will most likely have a different engine and everything. Thats my story and Im stickin with it.
R160A? No such thing.
YET!
Just like the number "eleventybillion." -- from SNL Celebrity Jeopardy
--Brian
I hear the Staten Island Ferry may be replaced by smaller boats in overnight hours.
So all of a sudden, I have this desire to ride the ferry at 3AM and stand on the poop deck in the middle of New York Bay and take in the scene, before it's impossible to do it, and maybe snag a few pictures for
www.forgotten-ny.com
Question: how safe is it, is it mugger central at that hour?
Even taking the ferry in broad daylight is creepy. I saw a guy wearing brass knuckles last time I rode it. Always lots of loud ppl, gangstas, and beggars.
If you take it at 3am, bring a few 6 foot bodyguards. :-0
You talking about the same ferry? I've taken the Staten Is Ferry many times, day and night, and never had a bad feeling, even in the days when crime in the subway was rampant. Last year I took my son to a number of Staten Island Yankee games and never was uneasy on the ferry. I was a little nervous actually on the subway to from the ferry to Penn Station at midnight with my son, but not on the boat. And I wouldn't even consider taking my son to Atlantic at that hour which is where I usually get the LIRR from the ferry.
So lets not discourage Kevin from taking his ride & his pictures.
Dont forget it's Qtraindash7. For him there's no safe place in NYC but perhaps a police station.
Arti
John, you're afraid of your own shadow. The SI ferry is perfectly safe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>...bring a few 6 foot bodyguards.<<<
But, you don't like tall people, remember.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey now, what is this about tall people?
I dunno Lou, he just doesn't like us. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Apparently, us tall people (6' and more) get laid more because we look more dangerous and short girls like that kind of stuff.
And this explains why my wife (5'0") married me (6'0")? All this time I thought it was my charm and good looks. 8-)
Which is why this 5'2 guy has to be hugging a pillow at night.
OK when I see short girls with tall guys I just feel like wrapping it.
Again, your height isn't the issue. It's social skills - and you can learn some. HINT: It'll help with the girls too.
I'm 6'8", wife is 5'3"... go figure..
BTW, my major problem in operating 6688 is the door stop for the cab door (opening door inward stop) smakes me right between the eyes if I stonewall.
Wow, you've never taken the ferry, have you? Your chances are better of electrocuting yourself in the shower than being a crime victim on the ferry.
-Hank
Great, thanks for telling him that, Hank. Now he'll never take a shower and smell up board :-)
I've been on the ferry, many many times. All I know is I see rowdy ppl everywhere and not many cops. And everytime the ferry pulls into Manhattan, some guys usually yell "welcome to New York City, watch your back cause it's dangerous". I'm not kidding, there are gangstas who go on there just to intimidate people.
Perhaps because I'm riding usually in opposite peak I see this?
Hey the ferry was going to STATEN ISLAND, you know where all those GANGSTERS hang out from the Mother And Fathers Italian Association.
I lived on Staten Island from High School until I got married, I have taken the Ferry at ALL HOURS and find it safe and pleasent.
Well, safe, anyway.
-Hank
Yeah Lou, but everyone is not 6'8" and suffer from disillusioned
paranoia. Besides, if he wants to ride the ferry, he can conjur
a SubTalk field trip and invite the 3/4 tonners of which I'm the
shortest at 6'3". >G< You think he would feel secure surrounded
by Big Lou from Brooklyn, BMT Man, Mr. RT, Stef & Sparky. :| )
Judging from the other responses and my own experiences on the Ferry (and your previous posts about riding the subway) the only thing that needs fixing is your level of social skills.
I just don't feel comfortable when there's a rough crowd around. Being 5'2, I don't think I'm being paranoid. Plus it's an undeniable fact that crime is on the rise in the city.
Lets just hope the subways remain fairly safe. It didn't help that people tried to beat me up in school. :-(
Crime isn't on the rise around the city. I don't hesitate to deny nonsense of the type you have sometimes posted.
There was an article in a Queens local newspaper about crime on the rise. They said it was because many police officers were leaving for better paying suburban jobs.
What will be next? T/O's fleeing to LIRR and Metro North???
The local trash throw-away papers rarely get it right. What they are referring to is probably a spike or two on Compstat reports. That isn't a rise in crime.
Cops are retiring, it's true. Want to sign up?
Your height is not at issue here. It's your attitude and how you deal with other people. Yes, I do think you show some very unreasonable fears.
Would taking a martial arts class help you? If you took it up as an avocation it might help you in terms of self-confidence (not to mention getting you used to dealing with other people in an atmosphere of respect).
Yeah maybe it would help. Perhaps it's because I grew up in an environment (school) which taught us that taller guys seem to rule.
I sure hope that taller guys don't also rule the career world!
I think height would matter least in train operator jobs, well perhaps there being short is a good thing. Anybody 6' or over would have trouble fitting into those redbird cabs.
well at least the sharks won't be able to fit in there! :-0
If there's one thing to be learned in "school", it's that nothing that is taught there is worthwhile information. Nothing. Not the curriculum and certainly not anything social. If you take the garbage that is spewed forth from teachers' and other peers' mouths as gospel, you will definately wind up in Bellevue or comitting suicide. Which prospect is worse I don't know.
All throughout my sentence in the "cerebrel laundromat" I despised the "jocks" and their "preppy" whores, but I never let them intimidate me - I let them do their thing and I did mine. I wasn't about to let them get in the way of my so-called "education" (i.e., getting good grades just so I could get the hell out as fast as I possibly could)
You have to hold your head high, be more secure about yourself and don't let "trends", "political correctness" and like crap intimidate you. If you are short and skinny (no offense intended), consider joining a gym or something.
Myself, I am a Costanza-type (short, stocky and ... well, my hair is fine! ;-)
I never had a serious girlfriend and I never got laid and I really don't give a shit.
Just remember - Life's a bitch then you die.
And that is my two cents.
Great advice, eh? ;-)
I also forgot to clarify - I meant "school" as elementary thru high.
College is an entirely different ballgame. It is much more realistic and user-friendly. I love college life because everybody is treated with dignity - not like sheeple. And college is much more accepting of those who do not conform to "popular" society.
Yeah I want to go to Nassau community college. The commute aint fun from up here in the boonies, and I'm still waiting for my financial aid.
Still waiting for handouts...
The financial aid system is supposed to be there for helping poorer people get a college education. Most jobs won't accept ppl without one.
My point is school started already you should have addressed your needs well before now.
At least you've realized that you're not going to get anywhere with a sheet of toilet paper (high school diploma).
Sorry to rant about height, it's a hard time of year for me I lost my Mom 2 years ago from Aug.31 and Sept.11TH is coming up.
Gosh I just can't seem to shake this depression I've had since Friday. I feel sick to my stomach. It hasn't helped that I haven't railfanned in awhile. If it wasn't for the damn usual laundry errands and other crap I'd be railfanning tomorrow. :-)
Maybe you should find a counselor to talk to. I'm not being sarcastic either, it could really help. A professional counselor will listen to what you have to say, will listen to your fears, what you're feeling and they'll help you deal with it and give you [professional] valuable tips and advice. Emotional trauma happens to everybody. Some can cope, others can't, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you don't seek counseling when and if you need it, you're only hurting yourself.
Why punish yourself? You don't have to live the rest of your life lonely and depressed.
Good advice. Sorry about your Mom, Qtraindash. Do you have siblings to spend time with?
No one really lives that close by. I do wish my family was closer but it seems everybody is involved too much in their own life to spend time with others.
Usually when I travel less I feel more depressed. With the "great weekend deluge" finally over I can get back to doing some traveling, and of course, railfanning. :-)
Thanks for your concern :-)
You're welcome.
I think when you start your college classes you'll find opportunities to mix it up with people.
My cousin is getting married in a couple of weeks. He's on the short side (because my uncle is short). He's marrying a cute professional lady with a lot on the ball. I bet you could meet somebody who's right for you when you start classes at Nassau. Be a gentleman, be classy about it, and who knows...
I already am in counseling.
Good for you. That's a great first step.
>>> I sure hope that taller guys don't also rule the career world! <<<
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but studies show a correlation between height and success in the business world. That being said, don't dwell on it and improve yourself to do the best you can do. There are always exceptions.
Tom
Oh damn! Well I now have a new fondness for the Redbirds. Their cabs don't like tall guys. :-)
They have been using the smaller boats overnight for years now... The John Noble and the Alice Austin. 2 decks and about half the length.
Kevin: Even if you ride the ALICE AUSTIN and the JOHN A NOBLE you can still stand outside and take pictures. Just go down to the main deck and out the doors.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Alice AUSTEN.
-Hank
Hank: Why lower case for the first name?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stay away, it's more dangerous than the South Bronx!
You typically can't ride an overnight ferry that has accessible outside deck space. They usually use one of the 1500-passenger boats on overnight runs; two indoor decks, crappy bus-station seats.
-Hank
>>You typically can't ride an overnight ferry that has accessible outside deck space. They usually use one of the 1500-passenger boats on overnight runs; two indoor decks, crappy
bus-station seats.<<
So, you're saying that riding outdoors is impossible on overnight runs?...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(I hear the Staten Island Ferry may be replaced by smaller boats in overnight hours.)
The big issue here is privitization -- the City wants to hire a private company to provide the service. In theory there is nothing to stop the City from buying a small boat. Then again, if NY Waterway's boats are idle at that hour, it could provide the service without a new boat.
I was once going to take a round trip out of Whitehall around 9:00 on a summer Saturday night, but have to admit I was intimidated by the large number of rowdy teenagers- many of whom were drinking out of paper bags, or beer cans and bottles in plain sight!
Most of the time there are some vagrants who take up a whole wooden seat, or guys who walk around either begging, playing music or trying to sell stuff. Usually if you pretend to be asleep or bury yourself in your newspaper, they won't bother you.
One Fourth of July, I observed a deckhand politely asking a man to put out his cigarette. The man reluctantly complied, and immediately lit up another as soon as the deckhand left. So there could be a perception of anarchy and lawlessness if you put your mind to it.
Not to add fuel to the fire, but I've been 6'1" since high school, and have been robbed a couple of times at that height: once in front of a bunch of people on a crowded train, and once on the empty LIRR Far Rockaway platform. The authorities to whom I reported these incidents had no sympathy: "Aw c'mon- a big guy like you shouldn't let those punks get you."
Well most robbers carry weapons so height does not always mean beinga ble to escape robbery. I'm more afraid of being beaten, since in general small guys are beat up more than big guys. The best thing to do, in the subway or elsewhere is to leave an area where some rowdies are handing out.
And if someone does try to mug you, yell or trigger your personal siren (I have one).
Unfortunately and sadly, there will always be people who will pick on others because they are different, whether it be height,race,etc. I just wish the prejudice would stop. :-)
You're not wrong, but try not to dwell on it so much...
Well most robbers carry weapons so height does not always mean being able to escape robbery. I'm more afraid of being beaten, since in general small guys are beat up more than big guys.
One tidbit I picked up when working in the criminal court system some years back is that the people most likely to be beaten (or worse) in jails and prisons are the huge buffed-up thugs. Smaller guys quickly learn to avoid confrontations whenever possible, while the macho-man thugs won't back down from a challenge. And one invariable rule of prison life is that no matter how big and strong you may be, there's always someone bigger and stronger.
I sort of suspect that things outside aren't all that different from things in prison, at least in this context.
"And one invariable rule of prison life is that no matter how big and strong you may be, there's always someone bigger and stronger."
Or three guys together who are bigger and stronger...
And if someone does try to mug you, yell or trigger your personal siren (I have one).
My god. Is this on a belt with turn signals?
I just wish the prejudice would stop. :-)
And it should stop beginning with you.
Do you think Bedford Park Blvd should be officially called 200th Street from Webster Avenue to Allerton Avenue?
Do you think Nereid Avenue should officially be called E 238 Street from corner of E 240 Street/Mclean Avenue and Webster Avenue/Bronx River Road to White Plains Road (as shown on old 1980s map in Pelham Bay Park Subway Station)?
Why is there no West 18th, West 26th or West 34th Street in Brooklyn?
Also there is a gap in numbers on Northern Blvd in Queens. E/B you cross 172nd, then Utopia Pkwy and then the next street is 189th. Due to the narrowing of the land as you go north to the TNB.
Yeah. Queens has a "folded" street number system in that area. It gets worse the farther north you go. There are also some street numbers missing in the area of Briarwood.
:-) Andrew
>>>Also there is a gap in numbers on Northern Blvd in Queens. E/B you cross 172nd, then Utopia Pkwy and then the next street is 189th. Due to the narrowing of the land as you go
north to the TNB.<<<
In East Flatbush/Canarsie there's also a big jump from East 59th to East 91st due to the street layout. The 60s and 70s can be found in Mill Basin slanting northwest and by the time the slanted streets reach East Flatbush, they're in the 90s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>>Why is there no West 18th, West 26th or West 34th Street in Brooklyn?<<<
That is an enduring mystery that has always fascinated me.
In Bay Ridge, 69th Street and 75th Street are named Bay Ridge Avenue and Parkway, but local denizens just use the numbers.
3rd Avenue extends into the Bronx...but street signs there invariably spell it out as Third Avenue.
There is a B Street in the Bronx and an Avenue B in Port Richmond. Neither is accompanied by an A Street or an Avenue A.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The reason for the "Third Avenue" in the Bronx as opposed to "3rd Avenue" in Manhattan was the NYC Language police trying to impress upon us the proper pronunciation of "toid." :)
The dead-end block of Hobart Ave south of Baisley Ave was once A St.
Edgewater Park in Throgs Neck has a 3 Avenue as well. It also has 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Avenues, plus some other numbers as well.
Nah.....the last thing we need to do is spend tax money on new street signs! :-)
In the Bronx's Kingsbridge Heights, if you're traveling north on Bailey or Heath Avenues, the sequence is as follows:
West 193rd Street
West Kingsbridge Road
West 229th Street
The West numbered streets start to pull away from the East numbered streets downtown where the Bronx starts. Of course, the Bronx and Manhattan street systems are one and the same. The further uptown, the bigger the gap. Similarly, driving on the Deegan Expressway, you pass exits for West 230th Street, Van Cortlandt Park South and East 233rd Street! This stretch is almost two miles!
Between Northern Boulevard and Kissena Corridor Park, Flushing generally shuns numbered north-south streets west of 147th- but the standard Queens address coordinates continue as usual. Anything on the block east of Main Street has the prefix 136-. A lot of people unfamiliar with the area look for 136th Street.
In southwest Long Island City, it's one long, uninterrupted block between 11th Street and 21st Street.
It's a long-standing personal pet peeve (six has always been my lucky number for some reason), but Queens planners seemed to have had an aversion to the number 66- fear of Satan, perhaps? You'll only find 66th Avenue in three relatively short stretches. The first two, in Rego Park and Forest Hills, probably date back to the thirties when those areas were developed. The third was part of a townhouse development built in Douglaston in the seventies. Where 66th Avenue should be positioned in Middle Village and Little Neck are Juniper Valley Road and Cullman Avenue respectively. But 65th and 67th Avenues run for generous stretches through Fresh Meadows and south Bayside. NO FAIR!
65th Avenue hasn't much to do in South Bayside/Oakland Gardens. In my neighborhood it's a one-block connector. 64th, 67th, and 69th are the Avenues that keep popping up in Eastern Queens, though rarely in that long a stretch.
Now 73rd Ave is pretty major (and in my neighborhood, it's one short block away from 69th Ave)
:-) Andrew
>>>>Now 73rd Ave is pretty major (and in my neighborhood, it's one short block away from 69th
Ave) <<<<
73rd Avenue follows the path of a 19th Century (and possibly earlier) road known as Black Stump Road.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>"In southwest Long Island City, it's one long, uninterrupted block between 11th Street and 21st Street."<<<
A better description of southwest Long Island City would be appreciated.
South of Queens Plaza South, there are 12th and 13th Street
in Long Island City. Go as far south as one street
north of 44th Drive. (Not sure of the numbered avenue, drive
or road). A portion of the Queensboro Bridge upper roadway covers
13th Street at QPS towards 43rd Avenue.
;| ) Sparky
There was a thread about missing streets.....How about extra streets to keep the numbering system straight.......If you go E/B on Queens Blvd from Rawson Street (33rd St). The streets run as follows
37th Street
38th Street
39th Street
39th PLACE
40th Street
41st Street etc......
I have a postcard (bought at Branford) of the #7 train (all white) with the NYC in the background.....I think it was taken from the roof of an apartment house on 39th Place.
>>>>I have a postcard (bought at Branford) of the #7 train (all white) with the NYC in the
background.....I think it was taken from the roof of an apartment house on 39th Place. <<
That might well be Newkirk special from a calendar...I know which one you mean...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>Between Northern Boulevard and Kissena Corridor Park, Flushing generally shuns
numbered north-south streets west of 147th- but the standard Queens address coordinates
continue as usual. Anything on the block east of Main Street has the prefix 136-. A lot of
people unfamiliar with the area look for 136th Street. <<<<
If it's weird Queens street numbering you want, look no further than tiny Walnut Street just north of Union Turnpike along 71st Avenue.
This street retains Queens' old street numbering system...before the days of the dashed numbers...but does so in a maddeningly confusing manner. It uses the old system and the new system for about half its one block length, with each system taking about one-half the block!
>>>>You'll only find 66th Avenue in three relatively short stretches. <<<
If it's the number 61 you like (you Roger Maris fans out there) 61st Avenue doesn't begin until Douglaston Parkway.66t Street enjoys a good run, though it is blocked by cemeteries.
Looks like the end of the Snediker Ave "el" is getting closer.
Today I rode the (L) (R-143 #8161) and found these two items of interest:
1) On the stretch between Atlantic and Bway Jct, the new steel ramp is in place and all that remains is for it to be painted and have tracks installed. I called it a ramp because you'll see graduated sctions to raise the grade of the new connection. The new northbound track has to cut across that open field to substitute for Snediker.
2) On the stretch between Atlantic and Sutter, the new northbound track, built on new steel, has track and third rails that go down to close to where the new connection will be. That signal case is still in the way, but should be removed for the connection to be successful.
If you haven't seen this, get there with your cameras and record this, because before you know it, bye bye Snediker !
Bill "Newkirk"
Right you are Bill! The way the work has progressed, and considering that everything related to track is done as panel work (so it can be dropped in place like an erector-set09, chances are the final connection will be in place over the course of one weekend. A shuttle bus service will probably be instituted during that closure for one weekend between Rockaway Parkway and B'way Junction.
I was in the "ground zero" area today to check on the BMT Cortlandt St station before the 9/15 reopening.
It was publicized that they are building a fence to make it easier for people to see the "ground zero". Well, there is a new station entrance for the southbound (N) & (R) in this new area. Currently, pedestrians have to walk in the street, protected by "Jersey" barriers,
I saw this through the protective netting and the entrance is all painted and ready to go. Later, I rode an (R) train north past Cortlandt. It seems this new entrance is where the old mall entrance used to be.
Check it out and you'll see what I mean.
Bill "Newkirk"
Which line do you think features the sharpest track curve(s)?
Here's a few candidates that I can think of, in no particular order. Feel free to add/correct. (Non-Revenue/Abandoned facilities are OK as long as they still exist - please, nothing about the Manhattan elevated or the destroyed Brooklyn elevateds.)
1) J/Z - Double curves between Cypress Hills and Crescent Street (my selection)
2) 1/9 - South Ferry Loop (and 5 - South Ferry Inner Loop)
3) 6 - City Hall loop
4) 2/3 - Double curves entering and leaving Park Place
5) 3 - Curve between 145th Street and 148th Street/Lenox Terminal
6) R - Curve on 11th Street cut
7) S - Malbone Street/Empire Blvd curve (is there still track there? Is it ever used?)
I'd go with the South Ferry Loop(s).
I'd say either:
the Cresent St/Cypress Hills curves on the J
Or the curve at Qieensboro Plaza going toward 45 Road on the 7.
When entering the Coney Island station from Culver or Brighton, there is a 90 degree turn just before the station.
My understanding is that the site of the Malbone St wreck is just before the Prospect Park station, where today's Franklin shuttle meets up with the Brighton line (Q).
That is where it is. The track is no longer used for revenue service (so that the S trains don't have to cross over the Brighton tracks more so than to avoid using the sharp curve) although non-revenue moves are sometimes made on that track.
As it has been pointed out somewhere, One day on the late 1960's a non-revenue (light) train tried to make the turn. It was going at the speed of 3MPH as it was supposed to do. And the train derailed and hit the wall in the same place as the train did back in 1918. This time there was no major damage and no loss of life.
I am aware of that. They still use it though. I think they would rather run the risk of a derailment rather than use the NB shuttle track and cross over the Brighton Lines. Now if it is late at night, it isn't as much of a problem but if they had to do a move during the day due to a stalled train, then they might have to.
Wasn't that the December 1974 derailment which damaged an R-32 beyond repair?
It might have been. I'm not too sure when the derailment was. I think the 1974 derailment was another event on the shuttle.
The track is available for revenue use, even though it's not used in everyday revenue service. It was used during a two-day GO last year, when the NB platform was closed for construction.
I'd say it would have to be on the IRT. They use 51-foot cars for a reason. One IRT candidate not on your list is the (7), two sharp curves between Hunterspoint and Queensboro Plaza.
:-) Andrew
That's very good logic. I'd have to agree that the sharpest curve would be on the IRT as well.
I've never ridden this part of the system, but what about the jug handle at 149-Grand Concourse?
Matt
Oi Vay! That's one helluva curve.
lol... then do we have a winner?
Matt
Between City Hall and Cortland Street ?
This I got from TA track people & and a Supt...The northern most track turning into the 240th st barn is the sharpest in the system.
This is off the Broadway El between 242 & 238 st stations..on the #1.
1) J/Z - Double curves between Cypress Hills and Crescent Street (my selection)
2) 1/9 - South Ferry Loop (and 5 - South Ferry Inner Loop)
3) 6 - City Hall loop
4) 2/3 - Double curves entering and leaving Park Place
5) 3 - Curve between 145th Street and 148th Street/Lenox Terminal
6) R - Curve on 11th Street cut
7) S - Malbone Street/Empire Blvd curve (is there still track there? Is it ever used?)
You have to reject Cypress Hills and Malbone Street because they can take 67' cars and the latter 75' cars. Malbone is still used occasionally.
Of operating locations (carbarn moves don't really ocunt) I would have to give at least honorable mention to South Ferry inner loop. That was some curve to ride.
Express track just south of Chambers St.
1/9 South Ferry Loop
N/R entering Cortlandt (an S curve there)
100% CORRECT!
That is probably true...I'm no track expert and the #5 car 6458 I worked on today had all eight wheels 38 X 0 and eight identical brakeshoes well within specification but when the #2 R142s go around the Concourse 149 loops a 'bad hair day' for brakes begins. When the T/O applies brakes on the curve to slow down and then releases, brake units on outside curve wheels start ticking away their slack adjusters. All in a days pay. CI Peter
Here is some data for some of the curve radii(sources are from aerial photographs unless otherwise stated):
Inner curve - Fulton St. turning to Crescent St. on J: 160'
Inner curve - Crescent St. turning to Jamaica Ave approaching Cypress Hills: 175'
Inner curve - LI City/Sunnyside Yards, on ramp from Hunters Point on 7: 230'
Inner curve - Approach to 45th Road on 7: 285'
Lower curve - Approach to Queensboro Plaza on 7: 175'
Inner curve - Leaving Queensboro Plaza turning onto Astoria Line: 210'
Northmost track at 240 St. Yard/Carbarn on 1: 90'
Southmost track at 240 St. Yard/Carbarn on 1: 125'
City Hall Loop: 125' (based on IRT Commemorative Book, "Interborough Rapid Transit", collection of Consolidated Edison Co. Library, Irving Place, NY.
I'll leave it to others to fill in the missing numbers.
160' radius for the Crescent St. curve is very sharp, as the minimum radius of the 67' cars is 125'.
How about the curves on the Canarsie line between Graham and Grand and between Montrose and Morgan?
The M makes a fairly tight curve also when it turns onto Broadway and into the Myrtle-Broadway station.
How about the double curve on the BMT Broadway just north of Cortlandt St. and just south of City Hall, directly under historic St. Paul's Chapel.
My apologies to anyone who also posted this, since I did not read all of the postings prior to writing this.
I second that Andy. That is the most vicious S curve I know of in the system. Naturally the holy slow R and the Slow Beach N use it.
Thanks, Q. Soon the W will experience this curve nights and weekends.
Don't forget the "jughandle" curve the 5 must traverse between 149th/GC and 138th St in the Bronx, as well as the curve just north of West Farms Sq. The West End curving off of 4th Ave is also a sharpie, as is the curve north of W8th on the Culver.
More data:
Inner curve off Broadway-Myrtle: 150' radius
Inner curve approach to West 8th Street, Culver: 250'
Inner curve approach to 9th Ave., West End: 250'
Inner curve approach to 4th Ave. subway, West End: 175'
Inner curve north of West Farms Sq., No. 2/5: 165'
Again, these were all taken from aerial photographs at 0.10 mile resolution and are accurate to within 5'. Obviously, I can't measure the subways!
For the elevated lines (revenue track), it looks like the winner is the Broadway-Myrtle connector at 150', with the Fulton-Crescent St. curve second at 160'. Both very sharp turns compared to 125' minimum radius requirement of the 67' and 75' cars. The sharpest curve measured, "in the open", so far, is the nothern most track of the 240 St. Yard at 90', but that is not revenue track.
How about the curves on the Canarsie Line either end of the section under Bushwick Avenue - What's the radius of those?
Speaking of sharp curves, tracks south of Dekalb Ave towards Atlantic Ave and Pacific Street are pretty tight with 60 and 75 footers. But the sharpest I know to date is not only a curve, but a switch. The Union Square crossovers on the Downtown local and express are sharp enough for me, ever since the Union Square derailment. Not to offend my love for the subway, but the sharpest S curves to date are on our fellow sister system, the PATH.
[7) S - Malbone Street/Empire Blvd curve (is there still track there? Is it ever used?)]
According to SelkirkTMO it's used by me whenever I decide to drive my 'land yacht' through the Malbone Tunnel...;)
Seriously though, yes there is still track there, BUT it is lightly used by (1) maintenance of way equipment or (2) when a Franklin R-68 set is going 'beddy bye' for a layup on the Southbound Brighton tracks just outside of Prospect Park station.
Geez, I'm surprised you didn't slap him around for calling it "Empire Blvd." Heh. You must be slipping in yer old age. :)
Somehow I knew you were gonna say dat!
Heh. What can I say? No for shame. Speaking of "no for shame," The 3/4 ton crew is no more. It's now a full ton. Mr Boucher sez so. :)
Dougie, I TOLD you not to have that fourth helping... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Branford won't be the same with FOUR stooges. Nyuk nyuk nyuk. :)
Why, soitanly.
Anyone seen some of the PATH's curves? It looks like the train is gonna slam the wall all too many times around those curves. Even the ones where the WTC station used to be.
Is it as sharp as the MBTA Red Line's turn onto Harvard Square station? It squeals and grunts and crawls at 5 mph or less.
From the Glossary:
Wheel Detector. Part of a system to enforce speed limits during diverging moves over selected switches. Wheel detectors time each axle of a passing train and will operate an automatic stop underneath the train if overspeed is detected.
Does this mean that it is timimg the distance of the two wheels on each axle? If not, and it is timing between axles, how does it differenciate between 60 foot cars, 67 footers, and 75 footers (not to mention 51 footers on work trains?)
good question
how do the standard signals know when the train is through?
(sorry-- this was meant to go with the previous post)
By a series of relays.
When the first wheel of the train passes over the insulated rail section where the signal is, the signal turns red, somewhere past where the signal is, the relay gets the indication that the train is completely past the signal and the stop arm goes up.
When the train gets a bit further and passes another section of insulated rail then the relay sends the indication to the one next to the signal to set the aspect to yellow and lower the stop arm.
Insulated rail - signified by faded red paint on the inside of the running rail on either side of the point where the two affected rails are joined. When the wheel passes over it, a circuit is completed.
That is a very simplified explanation. I'll leave it to others to go into more detail.
Don't forget the insutlated joint and the yellow paint on the third rail cover.
Wheel Detectors time EACH AXLE one at a time. There are two sets of sensor. Each set has is spaced I think it's four feet apart from each other. As one axle passes the first sensor it start the timer for that axle untill is get to the next sensor, this is then turn into speed by a computer. This happen to all the axles on the train. So there can be at least two axles being timed at the same time with the same set of sensor. If the train is going at or BELOW(alway below just to be safe) the third light that was flashing once on the zone should go steady. If not you still going to fast and the train can be triped, or if you start to speed up to soon and are not passed the WD End sign and a over speed is sensed the train is the tripes also. Some trips are with the signal in the zone or other are by them self, you cane tell if you in a zone by looking at the trip arms. If you see a trip arm on both side of the track then that one is used for a Wheel Detectors trips zone. This is done to trip the train no matter were it is in the zone. There is more that goes with it, but this shoud give you some idear about a Wheel Detectors.
Robert
Thanks !!
There is some complication though with the wheelbase (spacing
between the axles). All current NYCT passenger cars have the
same wheelbase, but work equipment can be different. WD signals
often have to be disabled when a work train is passing through
because the different wheelbase confuses the signal timing.
I know that one for a fact. I work on Work Track tww pick ago. WD can't be turned off. I triped on one in the six mouth out there. I we have to do is go even slower over them, since the wheelbase in shoter between axles.
Robert
I was driving down the New Jersey Tpke last week. Around Exit 8A, there is a railroad track that runs underneath the highway. If I recall, about 10 years ago it was under catenary. I noticed the
catenary is now removed.
Can anyone provide details on this. Did it connect the Northeast
Corridor and the NJT Long Branch lines?
According to my map, that would be part of the trackage for the proposed MOM (Monmouth, Ocean, Middlesex) Line. That does meet up with the Corridor at Monmouth Junction. You might be mistaken about seeing catenary in the past. I don't think it was electrified more than a couple of car lengths from the Corridor, if at all.
The turnpike crosses that line close to the Jamesburg end, not too close to the Monmouth Jct end.
That is the former PRR Jamesburg Branch. It was one of the last PRR lines electrified and it has the lowest return on electrification investment. The purpose of the line that ran from MIDWAY on the NEC to SA (South Amboy) on the NY&LB was for long coal trains comming off the Trenton Cuttoff or the Bel-Del that would then unload at the coal export piers in South Amboy. The coal export bussiness in South Amboy peetered out in the 50's and the line saw little traffic. The Jamesburg Branch was the last Conrail line to loose its overhead wire which it did around 1994 or 1995.
Thanks!
So they have announced another off the street train op test.This is a complete slap in the face to all conductors who want to be promoted.Not to mention people in track ,cleaners and clerks.WHY SHOULD WE HAVE PEOPLE WITH NO EXPERIENCE COMPETING WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN MTA FOR YEARS.The last promotional T/O test was 3 years ago ,since then they have given an off the street test WHICH WE WERE TOLD WE WOULD HAVE TO resign as C/R to get the job.Then on incidents Off the streeters were given chances promotionals werent.I WAS DEMOTED FOR 1 incident People in the class I was in have had up to 3 incidents each and all they got was reinstruction.I Was TOLD BY THE UNION THE NEXT TEST WOULD BE COMPLETELY PROMOTIONAL but as it always seems the union let us down again.Why do we pay the Union for anyway there's no new contract ,20/50 is a pipe dream,OPTO is expanding ,and off the street people are taking T/O jobs away from the inhouse.I for one know for fact those T/O's are gonna have some severe Problems in the crew rooms and its not there fault.
Are the qualifications for off-the-street and in-house the same ?
Or can they go for college educated, experienced, etc. that many in-house don't have ?
Most companies I've worked for they HAD TO offer the new opening to in-house first before they were allowed to go outside. How does going outside first benifit the union ? Or what did they get for allowing it ?
They really have no control over it. Some of my classmates (I am OC)were very unsymapthetic until it was pointed out if the nex TD ot TSS was open to the public they would feel like crap too.
When is this alleged test going to be?
There is no indication of it on the DCAS site and was not on the list of exams scheduled up to June 2003.
This is either a typical crewroom rumor by some show off, a cynical Union attempt to get people pissed for the contract fight or an even more cynical attempt to get people divided so they can try and run a cheap contract by a divided membership.
Now since the new and improved version of Train Operator I & II is on managements side of the table (and some of us want it) another off the street test would be ridiculous until after it is rejected.
The new TO 1&2 would still get rid of some jobs by reducing board and XL spots BUT it would make sure that every single TO was a CR first. Even Cleaners and Agents would have to be conductors first. This is one of those things that RTO and the rest of the Union conflict on.
Its Exam No. 2085 5/7/03 to 5/27/03. This is listed under O/C Jobs on the MTA NYCT Web site.
I can't believe it myself I was told it was going to be promotional do the the problems there where having with some of the O/C T/O's.
This does make me alittle angry because I was looking foward to takeing the Exam. I will not resign as C/R and start again as a new Employee. I may just stay as a Conductor because I don't care for the other Promotional Exams like Tower Operator and ATD.
I apologize I really can't believe it but 20XX is an OC series number.
Maybe they are trying to force TO 1&2 down everyones throat and this is the best way to do it. I still will not buy it 100% until they start taking the money.
Take the test anyway if you really want the job. They let people go back to their former titles like RushHourSpecialist.
I will tell you that at this point you can be XX List for over two years as a T/O.
Take the test anyway if you really want the job. They let people go back to their former titles like RushHourSpecialist.
There's no gaurantee however because as it was stated, you have to resign as C/R first in order to accept the T/O position. They can let you go to your old post, but they don't have to.
People quit for outside jobs and then come back within the year and get their old job back.
The real question is if you finish your probation THEN get in trouble will they let you go back.
Some questions:
1. Do T/O's get more money than conductors?
2. Is the starting salary for an off-the-street T/O less than a conductor with say, 7 years on the job?
I'm also perterbed that they're doing this again. I want them to have an off-the-street test for conductor positions (the job I covet). And, it's unfair to ask conductors to resign to be eligible to take the T/O test.
BTW, I took the track inspector test on 6/29, even though it's a position I do not want. Would I have to resign from this position (assuming I'm called and hired) if I wanted to become a conductor?
1. Do T/O's get more money than conductors?
A: Yes about $2 more an hout
2. Is the starting salary for an off-the-street T/O less than a conductor with say, 7 years on the job?
A: It would came out about the same or maybe the C/R would make alittle more because of the overtime we may do.
If you are a Track inspector you may have to resign because you would be making more then a Conductor.
They should have another Conductor Exam they can't be too far from the bottom of the list.
On number 2 the starting hourly rate of ANY Train Operator was higher than that of ANY Conductor. T/O's get the board ALOT out of school car so maybe they do OK
If the TA wants to hose people they might introduce 4 years to top pay for the new exam for TO. In this economy they would still get quality applicants.
How does everyone start out in the MTA...how did YOU start out in the MTA? Yes, O/C exams...I feel your pain a little but you have to see it from the other side too.
The best way really to start out is C/R before going to T/O. The best T/O's I worked with were C/R's. Thats because in Conductor school you not only learn about your job but the job of the T/O. After all the C/R according to TA is in charge. Also if your want to be T/O I guess in the old days it was by way of Station Agent, Cleaner , and Track Worker.
I notice when I'm working with a O/C T/O 95% don't have a clue what is going on.
Promotions are an important part of a career ... would you be happy spending the REST OF YOUR LIFE in the same title and NEVER move up? That's what you're recommending ya know ...
No offense to the "off the street hires" but you just normally don't start off a career in an "executive position" ... there's something to be said for the value of earning your way up a ladder, and having something to work towards. This whole thing smacks of an employer that doesn't appreciate its workforce and if I was a conductor seeing my options cut out from under my feet, I wouldn't give a CRAP about "customer service" any longer. I don't see this as in the TA's best interests at all.
I realize promotions are important, but there haven't been any O/C exams in a LONG TIME. Promotional exams are hardly rare, O/C exams are very rare these days for T/O.
Prior to that last go round, there was NEVER an open competitive for motorpeople. That was a position that required expertise and was given only to those who EARNED it. What O/C means is that the job and the position is no longer meaningful or important and that it requires no skills. That's a pretty powerful statement, and not one I'd appreciate after earning my handles. I'd be applying at PATH in a heartbeat.
BTW, I should explain where I'm coming from here. I hold no animosity towards the "off the street" folks here - you guys are just pawns in a larger game being played by the state in "dumbing down the workforce" into little more than "welfare to a McJob." In the past 8 years, Paturkey and his "Business Council buddies" have been driving out talent in the state workforce across all agencies, pushing people with tangible skills into early retirements, wage stagnation which pushes you out into the private sector and bringing in people who lack the experience and expertise that the state once enjoyed for its taxpayer supported payroll.
It's QUITE clear that this is a path to completely automated trains and given what's going on here, it looks like sooner rather than later if the skills of someone who is required to "control their train" is so insignificant that "learning the railroad" is no longer a prerequisite. I've seen this game played in many other state agencies where technical expertise was pushed out the door and replaced with expensive consultant contracts for freinds of the politicos. Once upon a time, that expertise was ON STAFF. Not anymore.
How about me and my buddies Unca Kevin? TA hired us for our outside expertise sans the few who 'squeeked in.' We're engineers and engineering techs, experienced HVAC and elevator systems techs. I first came in to work with a hand held digital storage scope and DVM, dropped the scope and now haven't used the DVM except for voltage drops in the door control loop of Redbirds...I just use an LED 'gimmick light' (no bulb to break,) an adjustable wrench and my trusty TA approved screwdriver/hammer combo. Why hire us for oil/brakes when we have so much more to offer? New Tech needs us to do so much but we do SOS! What I see is that the vendors' game will come to and end when warranty expires and by that time I'll be MS1 or in another department.
BTW: Lunch discussion...CED is the technical end of transit that provides working trainsets. TWU100 dumped us...we should either farm out to another union (UAW or CWA but not IBEW) or organise. CI Peter
Actually, I'd expect that you were a surprise gift to the TA. Ask yourelf what the qualifications they were LOOKING for would be and I'll bet few of your capabilities were on the list of requirements. Whereas, years ago I would have expected that the requirements for the position (and the test) would have required demonstration of technical skills commensurate with the fleet at the time. That's where I was going with my diatribe, no demeaning intended.
They got good value in hiring you. But I bet they didn't know they needed it. :)
You make a very valid point there, and now I totally understand what you're trying to get across.
Thats exactly the way I feel. If T/O is no longer a Promotion I don't have anything to look foward to or reason to keep my sick days down.
Just to add I wouldn't abuse my sick time but still there is nothing to look too. All I can hope for it that they change their minds and make it promotion so I can move up.
A *lot* of people in state service have hit the silk since Paturkey came along, I'm just one of thousands. Maybe many of us who called ourselves "professionals" might have stuck it out if the pay was better than anything else, or lacking that, if we weren't treated like kindergartners or looked down upon like "welfare recipients" but alas, such is not the case.
And you KNOW that if you became demoralized and took a few more days off than you usually do, they'd be on you like sheet on flies (deliberate twist) ... I really wish I wasn't saying this but this O/C T/O thing proved itself to not work out as well as planned (once again I'm not poking those in the title now, it's the CONCEPT that I have a problem with, not the victims of it) and I'm FLOORED that they're planning on doing it again.
But to my TWU brothers and sisters, you can only be sheet upon so many times. Just as one should have pride in their work, an organization should also have pride in their workers.
Been there. And that promotion ladder was the only thing sometimes that inspired you to put up with things. I looked forward to the day I'd move up front and therefore restrained myself never bitch-slapping a customer who gave me a hard time. Now I wouldn't be so sure. :)
But yeah, this is a really BAD thing for the TA to be doing. It's not like there's a lot of future openings in the dispatcher title to look forward to ... some day. Not to mention the benefit of knowing the railroad before you tear up and down along it for a check.
I don't want Towers or ATD. I decided its Train Operator or nothing. I will not resign so that out of the question. I'm going to have to start looking somewhere else if this keeps up. Maybe I'll try PATH, Metro North or NJ Transit.
Here's hoping they come to their senses (but I won't turn blue, this is Paturkey's world after all) but at the same time, what's going on in YOUR shop is exactly what's happened in other state agencies over the past 8 years (and started in padre Mario's days) ... the ones who CAN get stomped on and leave, leaving behind only those who really couldn't cut it on their own.
Wonder why the quality of government services is going to hell in a handcart? It's because those who are good at what they do have had enough. LOTS of people put up with working the middle of the train ONLY because there was a glimmer of hope of that promotion up front someday. And if they take this away, it'll cause a lot of people to reconsider their options.
You're a VERY good conductor, and having done it for a living I know good vs. so-so. You're exactly the kind of people that should be encouraged to remain in the system and move up front because I can tell you'd be a hell of a good motorman too. But hey, these clowns won't be happy until they've got folks up front who can do their entire interval with only 5 BIE's per round trip. :)
Thank You for the kind words. I'll just end up making the best out of being Conductor. I'll keep moving to diffrent lines to keep the exitement going.
I'm looking foward to this pick SR will be my follower on my first trip during the week on the # 6 Line.
You're most welcome ... I don't hand out congratulations often (heh) but having seen you do your thing, I was QUITE impressed. And I'm hoping that you'll get your trip up front some day. I'd hate to see the TA lose someone as dedicated to your work as you are. Not many take such pride and care in what they do. And I mean that.
Hi Kevin,
Please tell me what the O/C in O/C T/O stands for? Is it over-the-counter because they're being hired off the street instead of promoted from Conductor? Thanks in advance.
Best wishes,
Bob
"O/C" is a civil service classification of a title. In this case, "Open Competitive" which means any Tom Dick or Hairless can take the test with no priors. This is as opposed to "Promotional" which means "closed to the public, eligibility only for existing employees" ... it devalues the position as a "merit" based title.
Thanks Kevin. I should have known that after so many years with the Transit Authority. I think the abbreviation threw me off. While we're on the subject, the TA has really outdone themselves this time. After years of lowering the standards so that the exams would be fair to all (I think you get my point), this seems to be the final insult. A few years before I retired I noticed an influx of operating employees that had no respect for the job, supervision or themselves. I retired as a Motorman Instructor (I refuse to call the title Motor Instructor, obviously an idiot designed it)and in my last few years I noticed the increase in these peoples obnoxiousness and insubordination towards myself and others in the supervisory field. I had to have a Conductor arrested for threatening me after I reinstructed him about being on his train two minutes prior to departure. Now how stupid is that? I can only imagine that it's gotten much worse since my retirement. I you give the operating employees no chance of advancement you're going to breed a group of individuals that, because they have nothing to lose, will truly have the "I don't give a f--k" attitude and I, for one, wouldn't want to reinstruct any of them.
Yeah, I've got 30+ years out of the TA and subtalk has been a CONSTANT reminder of just how much I've forgotten entirely myself. Heh. I get slapped around frequently for constantly injecting the necessity of politics into many threads here and a lot of folks don't seem to realize that the transit authority (and other public transit facilities just like it elsewhere) *ARE* political agencies. As such, they're subject to the insane and inane whims of sausage crafters with absolutely zero concept of what it is those folks do "down in de hole" at their bequest.
Elimination of unnecessary barriers to entry (I'm actually GLAD to see that women have come into the "trade", there really was no good reason for keeping them out in the past if they wanted to do the work) but some of this "touchy feely" nonsense just continues to put me over the top. And as a result of hiring completely unqualified people, we now have WD's and blind trips and a bunch of other complete silliness. When I worked for the TA, the mentality was one of "you're a professional and you'd better *BE* one" and "wing it or fling it" as required. You were taught your job so that no matter what happened, you were ready to deal with it, one way or another.
Seems nowadays that if you're qualified to operate a DESK, then 600 tons of steel is a coffee break. While I'm glad to see a good number of managers came up through the ranks and have a good idea, the wigs at the top no doubt have never been IN a subway car. All I can say is I'm really glad I'm not with the show nowadays. I'd feel compelled to SHOOT a few of them. :)
Bob I completely agree with you.Supervision has had its balls cutoff completely.If we are all gonna be stuck in the same titles There will be an increase in sick calls,people being late ,and just plain ignorance.Why would a qualified C/R keep his sick time down if he is at top salary?Not going to get promoted so those days in the summer look a whole lot better.And why bother doing things by the book ,if they can hire any schmuck to drive the train they can hire animals to be conductors.
Uh oh, looks like we may have to get the media spotlight out again for SR following JR!
September 17th is coming up....one year on duty as a Car Inspector! Some start in MTA because of friends or relatives...I heard of the job from a radio ad...my class for the mostpart never heard of the opportunity! So you take the test, TA wants you and you're called in quickly...1250 B'way eats your heart out and finally you go to PS248.
You finish...you do your first 'pick' and get 'thrown to the dogs.' You learn 'hands on,' you struggle as a 'newbie' despite your age, your 'chops are broken' because you have a little more interest in the work than others. Put your time in and REVALATION!!!!! TA is socialism...everyone in the title is EQUAL!!!. The 'brains' and the brainless, the 'skilled' and the stupid, the 'responsible' and the slackers are all lumped into one title at one pay level. You can stick to one title and pay level for the rest of your life...many do...but if you love the work and want better, you'll take advantage of the next promotional exam and move up. Sure, respect and perks from management are good BUT moving up is better. All the years of extensive work I have done has little managerial experience...I ran the field service department singlehandedly and am afraid of becoming MS BUT do you really think YOUR supervisors had the necessary experience?? Most started just like us. CI Peter
I'm only 15 dude, but my teachers were students before...though it sometimes doesn't seem like it ;-)
yea see thats the thing i wonder. i work for the MTA metro North Railroad. i dont have the 3 years college or the 5 years work experience. im 19 working for Metro North Railroad. am i eligible for the exam?
NO.
iight i knew ENGINEER was better anyway!!!!
Last month there was an open call for engineers too.
What does O/C stand for? isnt C/R conductor and T/O train operator?
O/C = Open Competitive.
Yes, C/R stands for conductor and T/O means Train Operator.
C/R is officially "Conductor/Revenue"
A few more, FYI:
CTA= Cleaner Transit Authority
S/A= Station Agent
TW/O=Tower Operator
ATD= Assistant Train Dispatcher
TD = Train Distpatcher
TSS= Train Service Supervisor
RCI= Road Car Inspector
CI = Car Inspector
Peace,
ANDEE
Good Day Folks,
In referencing the Train Operator position, that was previously promotional,
all reference points to it being promotional from Conductor.
Was it possible at one time within the past 10~15 years
for a Bus Operator to take the Train Operator Test as promotional.
Pass and be appointed, then because of the job requirement, resign
and be reappointed to their previous job title?
Another question, the RCI position. Is that a promotional
appointment or open competitive?
I'm not a transit expert and this posting leads me to querry to
things, that I know occured. Thanks to all for any input.
;| ) Sparky
Bus Operators could take it so could cleaners and station agents.
IMO this gave the MTA the ammunition to change the exam.
..."Bus Operators could take it so could cleaners and station agents."...
In fairness, prior to the institution of the O/C test, would not
preference be given to C/R on the list?
No offense against the others trying to promote themselves.
Another question, which dates back 3 decades is the exam for
Bus Operator and Conductor the same currently and do they still
fill from the same list?
Not forming any opinions, just want to understand the situation.
Thanks, ;| ) Sparky
Anyne who could take a promotional is treated the same. I can't speak for 30 years ago but currently you get bonus points based on your length of service in prerequisite titles.
Conductor and Bus Operator do not fill from the same list any longer (or at least are not supposed to). The last exam for B/O & C/R was in 1987. The test I took in 1993 was for C/R only.
The test I took to enter the TA was in 1989, and it too was a combo B/O, C/R test.
What amazes me is that my file # was above 4000, and they still got to me (thank God for luck).
The guy that broke me in on the R was 12K on the cleaners list and 9K on the c/r list
RCI is indeed an open-competitive title, though you need prior experience to obtain the title.
RCI requires experience but some RCIs I have met don't know what planet they're on. RCI would be a good job for me....shifts and locations really stink. Better choice is Car inspector assigned to inspections...M/F 7/3 RDO S/S. CI Peter
Im not against off the street train op test but people who worked for the MTA for years should be more eligable than some guy who just happened to wander into the MTA headpuarters.
You pay the union so that the big shots over at the union can drive there nice cars (on you of course) and have nice lunches on their expense accounts at manhattans finest resturants
"I Was TOLD BY THE UNION THE NEXT TEST WOULD BE COMPLETELY PROMOTIONAL but as it always seems the union let us down again"
Here is a little trick I learned that may help you in dealing with the TWU. You can always tell when they are not being truthful. Their lips will be moving.
FYI when a person who is permanent in a title takes a an o/c test he/she does not have to resign his/her previous title!It is still a promotion for that person BUT you do not get the extra points you would had gotten if it was a prom test.(i think it something like half point or point for every 6 months. not sure)You still have your previous title to fall back on.
As for the test being o/c now. I think there was too little interest in the prom.for c/r's The only people who take the test were brand new to the ta.I took the last one but by the time they called me i had enough seniority to get a job close to me,and got the hours i wanted.Its not appealing to be on the extra list for 2 years.The last prom.test alot of people i knew took it got called for the 1st and 2nd classes and had a pick job in the next pick. Now i talk to the guys who were out about six months later and just got to pick (2years later).
The only thing i dont think is fair is that all o/c jobs you have to wait 3 years to get top pay. the last o/c t/o test they got yard pay immediately.
YES, the 12/00 C/R class got picked jobs by 12/01 the people out six months later might still not pick in 2003 or if they fdo they might go back to XX after the work in 2004 is done. Large number of retirements and additions to serivce not factored in.
The TO's starting in early 2002 might take until 2005 to pick.
The TO promotional was a tough test. Not impossible but the OC test was much easier.
If the O/C test is technically a promotional test for the C/R then why is he being penalized by being unable to exercise the use of his/her seniority. And why is the playing field being leveled? The advantage should go to the people "in house".
I was told by a TSS from school car that the last O/C test was just to teach the union a lesson and that the next test would be promotional.
Let me shed some light on this point. In reality - the union does not care. There will be X conductors and Y train operators and Z tower operators, etc. As long as they pay their dues and talk the party line, the union couldn't care if they come from open competative or promotional lists. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues. The same number pay dues.
It's comforting to know that some things don't change. The TWU was worthless for all intents and purposes during my career and they're still worthless today.
Long may we remember Engels/Marx/Lenin and Gus Hall!! WE in TA get paid every two weeks...my deductions total over seven hundred dollars per paycheck and I just signed up for the 401K plan at 7%. TWU gets what...$500+ a year? Just had emergency dental surgery...have plan B...and will do a double reverse inspection shift tomorrow...because I cannot afford the expense even with compensation and have to take the health risk to make ends meet. Hopefully, the R142 will come in not too far past the shift start, my partner and I will complete our inspections swiftly and the car desk will leave us alone. 11PM to 3PM is a sixteen hour killer shift. CI Peter
Long may we remember Engels/Marx/Lenin and Gus Hall!!
The British firemen sure haven't forgotten:
Inflation: approx 1.5%
Pay offer: 4%
Demand: 40 (forty)%
They're now balloting for a strike.
Hazards, hours and shift durations: seeds of discontent. NYPD could get 11% over two years as decided by an arbitrator...that work is pretty safe as compared to FDNY. A fireman has longer shifts but works less days...they can sit all day polishing the chrome BUT there is always THAT fire which injures or kills. TWU100 is gearing up for a potential strike December 15th...an across the board pay increase and/or medical benefits. Signal maintainers, track workers and car inspectors are routinely exposed to hazardous duty and deserve special consideration just like firemen and police. CI Peter
Yeah well we've got the Army to put out the fires whilst the Trades Unions are being silly, so it's not a hell of a big deal. To be fair to the bastards, for the job they do, they probably deserve 15%-20% more than their current pay (£22,000-ish, roughly $33,000).
[...and off-the-street people are taking T/O jobs away from the inhouse (sic).]
People love to make the "outsiders/foreigners/whoever are taking our jobs" argument, but refuse to DO anything about it.
The easiest and most logical course of action, of course, is to simply SUE to get your T/O job. All you'd have to do is...
1. Identify the specific job that you would have gotten;
2. Identify the specific individual who was hired into that job;
3. Prove that ONLY you would otherwise have gotten that job;
4. Prove that the other person was hired specifically to prevent you from getting that job.
5. Hire a lawyer and file notices of claim against both Transit and the person who was hired.
I'll be checking the papers to see how this litigation progresses.
At least at the Transit Museum. A pre-renovation mosaic has been preserved.
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/westside/iw-cortlandt05.jpg
On our way back from our vacation in Virginia, we traveled I-495 to connect to I-95 back to New Jersey. There is a segment of the WMATA that runs along with the highway all along for the span of two station stops and it drifts away. Speed reaches 60mph (correct me if I'm wrong). Which line of the WMATA is this on? Any other helpful or important information I might need to know? (I don't know anything about WMATA)
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You,
The Blue line. It's near Van Dorn Station and Springfield Terminal.
Love to show you a track map, but the Metro Police consider that as critical information and it was pulled from this web site.
To even further answer the question, it's along the southern portion of the Blue Line....more than likely, you saw the Van Dorn Station--as for the second station, you might have seen the Eisenhower Avenue station which is actually on the Yellow Line and is suspended above and along-side I-495. This portion of the Blue Line is the only portion of the Metro that runs parallel to I-495. Quick question, the line that you're referring to cross the highway on a bridge, if so, you maybe thinking of the Yellow Line between Eisenhower and Huntington. You can see both of those stations from I-495.
Keep these in mind for future trips to the VA/MD/DC area:
Another Metro Line, the Orange, runs in the median of I-66 in Virginia for four stations (Vienna, Dunn Loring, West Falls Church, East Falls Church) before it goes into a tunnel at Ballston and continues east along Wilson Blvd. in Arlington.
There is also a location in Maryland where the Red Line crosses the Beltway (I-495) on a large overgrade bridge on the way to /from Shady Grove. This is where 270 and 495 intersect near Bethesda.
I have spent some time riding the subways in the past years but I can't help noticing the sounds the train makes when its axles pass over a gap in the track. It's not the same sound, but a different sound on certain ones. A good example is the 53rd St. tube (E line) from 50th St. to 23rd St. - Ely Av. A myriad of sounds are depicted and I want to know what causes the different sounds to occur?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
i did think that by the year 2000 you would not hear that anymore
i just knew the rails would be welded like LAMTA MARTA METRO wash. dc.
etc...why the nyc subway is not like dat' ??.................!
i do notice you hear about 6 clacks or bams to 2 in the front an pause then 4 in the back ...the wheels i am sure ?
( just a q&a )
They still need to be seperate somewhere. The rails expand and contract with temperature so they need to be spaced with a block of wood. Also, there are IJs at the signals.
#2 line trackage is well maintained but not up to par with the rest of the world. One thing I can say for sure is that what you heard/felt was not the wheels themselves but the wheels bouncing between rail gaps...no 'flats' or chips yet. CI Peter
Maybe a switch?
New trackage which contains the welded rail has all but eliminated the clickety-clack sound you refer to. It's now just one continous roar. Also, fewer cars run with those "flat" wheels which created ear shattering dins back in the 70's/80's.
Subway riding were much more enjoyable from an audio perspective 15-20 years ago.
We also had continous roars back then too. No offense to your handle Chris but I don't miss the R27/30s at all.
Wow, those are some mighty flat wheels. Sounds like the 6th Ave shuttle circa 1987.
Well, you're always going to hear some sounds when trains pass over switches. But if the TA is maintaining the wheels properly, you won't hear a lot else. Look at how quietly Washington and Miami Metrorail operate.
The TA is doing a better job than it has in the past.
Some systems seem quiet simply because the windows stay closed and because the tracks have no sharp curves. When I was riding the Baltimore system in May, the a/c wasn't working in my car so I opened a window. I've never heard anything so loud from a train not making a sharp turn.
No. I mean a lot of DIFFERENT sounds. Try riding an E from 50th St. to 23rd St. - Ely Av. You hear about 5 or 6 totally different sounds when the wheels hit a gap over the rail and they are not all switches.
Also, when would two different switches cause two different sounds?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Check this site: Today We Save a Little gas on the Railroad.net webpage and explore. The railroad industry consumes thousands of barrels of oil on a daily basis.
I've also been wondering about the quality of the diesel fuel used on diesel-electric locomotives. At a CITGO gas station, I noticed that the CETANE level of the fuel was 40. Do the railroads use a higher quality fuel?
How do they fuel up the large tanks on the locomotives and how long does it take?
Off-link: What is the quality of the fuel used on airplanes? How do they fill those extremely large tanks?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I posted that Hot Times days ago.
I didn't post that Hot Times days ago.
I saw an article in the latest issue of Progressive Railroad magazine that featured some freight lines in the South West that were experimenting with using corn and vegetable oils in the fuel tanks of their diesel locomotives. Funny thing was: they ran just as well and released less pollutants into the air. The down side: the price was about $1.00 more per gallon than diesel. Obviously, this is great news for alternative fuel and environmental activists. Hopefully, the price can be reduced on bulk orders of these natural oils so that these 'tests' will lead to a future permanent change from diesel to corn oil.
There are some cities that run busses and municipal vehicles on waste fry oil from restaurants. None around here of course, but it's been said that when such vehicles pass by, there's a sudden urge among many for a McShake. In other words, there is an odor of fries to many of those vehicles. I'm not kidding here for once, but I do find that a bit amusing too.
'Scue me sir -- you want fries with that shake?
;-)
As long as the shaking stops when the doors close. :)
Ohio State University used a blend of waste cooking oil and diesel for their campus shuttlebus fleet in the 70s. They referred to the mixture as "Buckfry".
Very cute...
There was an article in the NYtimes a few months back that stated that there is enough used frying oil to power the entire NYC transit bus fleet
NYC and or ny state should get into the biodesil market.
Absolutely ... but for what it's worth, in other cities that HAVE tried it, almost universally the "sensitive" complained and had it stopped because they did NOT appreciate the "french fry restaurant" smell that came out of the tailpipes. In some cities, envirokooks went completely berserk and SUED, insisting that since they recognized the odor, those busses were "killing Leisure George" ... seems in some cases no matter what you try to do you can't win.
But yes, it does make sense. Maybe we can get the Saudis to eat more fries. :)
I'd prefer French Fry smell to Diesel exhaust 100 times as much. Why are people such idiots.
I guess it smells like victory. Personally, I'd crack down on those guys burning those chestnuts on the street corners. I'd hook up an oxygen mask to a bus tailpipe before I'd want to smell THOSE again. :)
It is very simple:
"Change is bad and must be resisted whenever it threatens to happen".
"You will be changed. Resistance is futile."
Well at first they used castor oil in cars, the is why one brand has its name.
The fumes supposedly made you want to go and when you were burning oil it was an overpowering one.
El Castor Malo ... "Castor" in Spanish is "beaver" ... I'm gonna let this one sit there. :)
Yeah you always have that craving.
What can I say, bro? It's that UPSTATE living. :)
"The down side: the price was about $1.00 more per gallon than diesel. Obviously, this is great news for alternative fuel and environmental activists."
Do you know how much diesel oil and gasoline farmers burn to raise the crops for that gallon of corn oil? I don't know exactly, but I believe it's considerable.
Do you have firsthand experience with farmland preservation, the cost of running machinery along with obtaining fuel and its prices? Almost every veggy scrap can be salvadged for alcohol production and the remnants used for animal feed or dried for furnace operation. Even 'cowshit' can be fermented in a container and the methane gas recovered with the use of filters and a refrigerant vacuum pump.
We're still fighting time and money...when the 'final collapse' comes into effect, motors will run on methane gas, radios on photovoltaics and light/heating on higher aromatics/veggy oils. Newspapers will cost five bucks, one auto tire will cost two months income and we'll be commuting to work on bicycles with steel rims sans rubber tires.
And my subways...30 to 40 tonnes weight per car...gone! I have ammonia absorbtion refrigeration too...just a little heat from LPgas/12 VDC/ 120VAC makes it work so very well. CI Peter
So you have a Servel referigerator?
I HAVE A HIGH SPEED REFRIGRATOR. IT WILL FREEZE ANYTHING IN SIGHT. IT REALLY QUICK. FREEZING IS EASY. POWER CONSUMPTION IS LOW BUT IS HIGH WHEN SOMETHING IS BEING FREEZED. THAT IS A HIGH SPEED GE REFRIGRATOR, ITS REALLY GOOD IT CAN GO FROM 0 TO -100 IN 6 SECONDS
"SOMETHING IS BEING FREEZED"
in America, we say "when something is being frozen."
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
:0)
I should have capitalized "In."
No juicesky no cold brewsky!
No, I'm not that off the wall to chuck out the Sears for a Servel....I have a three way portable made by one of the RV amnufacturers. If I had a Servel I would also have LP gas fired water heaters (demand and furnace back up) but the explosions I have observed with LP preclude any indoor ops. Empty out the refrigerator of all the crap you won't ever consume, leave some airspaces, trash most of the crap in the freezer...and you can run the refrigerator off a generator for two or three hours a day because of insulation efficiency.
The guy down the hall that had the fire...upon another apartment cleanup last week...had cases of candles! We're not yet ready to live by candlelight or computer/TV by photovoltaics and storage batteries.
A freezer is more effficent when filled with goods. Cold air is harder to cool and leves the frig every time you open it. Frozen material loses it coldness much less quickly.
Ay, Juice, Do you have a Servel Refrigerator?
No, an RV portable chest. I do know Swiss Servel....and am experienced with the other built in RV units (stinking ammonia leak.)
Two issues here
1)How much gas and oil does it take to drill offshore for oil and gas, ship it to refineries and refine and ship to consumers. A whole lot. I believe it takes 2 gallons of fuel for every gallon of fuel produced by the petroleum industry. Fianlly the finacial wizzard have showed farmers that the waste they now pay to haul away is actually worth money.
The economies of scale will bring down the final cost of biodesiel if it would be mass produced. In fact if all methods are used such as using waste vegatable oil, scaps and peals from the production of foods(almonds are a good example, resturant collection would be too costly + waste management and co own landfills which they rather the waste stream to go to ) the cost would probably be compettive with petroleum based desiel
The problem is just that. The oil industry wants to protect it near monopoly on the energy business. THe bush administration was elected into office by the oil states and farm belt. The bush adminstration is pushing the house and senate to mandate ethenol to be used as oxegenation agent in all gas.
Developing alternative fuel on a large scale is a national security issue not an ENVIRONMENTAL issue. THe problem is that the bush amdminstration views ethanol and biodesiel as farm subsidies for the corn and soybean industries and not as promising ways to reducing the money we send to the middle east pupet governments(who support terrotist groups out of fear in some cases).
In the past two years there has been great strides in utilizing waste products on farms as fuel. Instead of dumping waste from pigs into big poluting pools they are put into fermetors generating another revenue stream for farmers(the biggest welfare cases around even though many large farmers maek 300k plus a year)
The MTA already committed itself to buying higher cost low sulfer fuel. It would be cheaper for NYS to work with private industry to build out a biodesiel refinery (I Know the nimby would never allow it) . A NYTIMES article a few months back said that there is enough waste vegatable oil to power all nyc transit buses on b100 biodesil.
The main problem keeping biosesil in the US from becoming a partner with petroleum based desiel is politics and big business
The oil industry - why tamper with what is making money for them
The waste disposal industry - Invested heavily in land fills. Not willing to tinker with business monel (the NYC reclyling issue)
the farm industry - We want only our crops used and we want top dollar
http://www.biodiesel.org/
http:www.eyeforenergy.com
The low sulfur fuel biz is a lie...you can buy all the cheap oil you want and remove the sulfur yourself to comply with emmission standards...Conned Ed did it with coal across the river in Ravenswood until EPA said no more coal...the plant still stands today. just have to find a use for the 'yellow stuff' left behind.
Nuke the third world...nuclear power forever. Or would you like your
wonderful trainsets and your TV/VCR/computer to just go dead?
CI Peter.....Redbirds will continue to fly!
Geez, Unca Peter ... all we need is some cobalt slugs, sea water and a carboy. Hydrogen bladders for everyone. :)
Yes sulfur can be removed
But it costs to remove sulfer plus lowers the refining capacity of the refinery
A mixture of biodeseil and petroleum based desiel is the way to go long term
Sulfur is removed on site at the generating plant....Conned ED used to have barges on the East River for pickups. Biodiesel is balognadiesel...baloneydiesel...look up the 200 MPG Carbourater and you'll know why!
Sulfer is an important industrial raw material (especially for H2SO4) and most Sulfer used in this country comes from oil. De-sulfering oil not only cleans the air, but elimnatesthe added environmental cost of sulpher mines. Railroads frequently run unit molten sulpher trains, just like they run unit grain, coal and LPG trains.
The oil industries main complaint is that the extra processing needed to remove the sulfer will reduce their refineries capacity.
They should have thought of the capacity issues before they closed down all those refineries 10 years back
The most economicle path is to develope biodesil industry, thus lowering the cost of biodesil and utilize both biodeseil and petro desiel as neccessary
I hate these state mandats which end up costing far too much and returning far to little
forget about emmission standards and thing natioal security
THE CHEAP oil is costing us money- we are sending amercan greenbacks overseas
MEANWHILE
we are giving farmers money for the crops that they grow that we dont need
BIODESIEL - use unnneeded crops keep our money in the good ole USA
Hey...'Farmers rights.' East coast farmers grow grass and legumes...cows eat and fart methane and defficate carbohydrates. The farmers get property tax breaks. You are too 'city minded' to know the truth....I lost my farmland tax break because of nasty politics.
The cycle will not be broken until 'the final collapse.' When NYC dies I have an estate that is 90% self sufficient...just may need a little food. The oil companies just sit and wait taking in the income...the changes are sooner than you think when the subway ride costs two bucks. CI Peter
BTW, that's "defecate"...
You're not, by any chance, waiting for the black helicopters of the UN to invade us and bring the New World Order with them, are you?
What are you going to do when there are NYCers tring to steal your crops? You can't make ammo as fast as they steal it.
Nuclar will runout. Plus we don't know how to recycle radioactive waste (it must be emmiting energy, then how can it hurt us?).
Electromagnetic energy collection!
Google Search
Site dedicated to this stuff
Only problem is that the capitalist pigs will not allow it to excist. It would drastically change the econmy forever, since these are one-time sales. Also all governments would outlaw it and kill anyone who can create these machines. Though 15 at 120v amps really isn't much at the momment as what I herad excisted from the US Psychotronics Association quarterly newsletter. My mother is into this stuff and I know alot of it. Still free energy would kill the fossil fuel market. And do you think the 2 billion a year exxon-mobile would allow it?
"How much gas and oil does it take to drill offshore for oil and gas, ship it to refineries and refine and ship to consumers. A whole lot. I believe it takes 2 gallons of fuel for every gallon of fuel produced by the petroleum industry"
Sounds phony to me. I'd like to know here you got that figure.
"In the past two years there has been great strides in utilizing waste products on farms as fuel. Instead of dumping waste from pigs into big poluting pools they are put into fermetors generating another revenue stream for farmers(the biggest welfare cases around even though many large farmers maek 300k plus a year) "
Oh boy are we misinformed here. Farmers operate on some of the thinnest margins of any industry. Yes, some do receive subsidies, others price supports and still others cut-rate loans. But that doesn't mean they doing well.
Show us what % of farmers are making $300K a year, and how many are near bankruptcy...
I can assure everyone that "family farmers" are too small to qualify and operate at a LOSS ... this is why you see suburban sprawl as farmer after farmer throws in the towel and DEVELOPS. These "subsidies" go to the likes of CocaCola/MinuteMaid, ConAgra and ADM corporate farms. The "little guy" gets bupkiss ...
Little guys get 'farmland assesment' because they grow grass to feed cows MOOOOOOO!
If you ever get up this way, I'll give you a tractor ride across our pastures (assuming they're not under snow at the designated time coordinates) ... BIG pastures, no tax break. Zoned "residential" and PAID as "residential" ... but I save a LOT of fuel not ... mooing it. :)
(I Know the nimby would never allow it)
Then how did they allow 1 1/2 acre sewadge treatment plant near the Home Depot store in Coledge Point?
Construction on it has been going on for years now. It borders the Van Wick Expressway and Coledge Point Blvd.
The price would come down if the BUSH adminstration would allow it too.
Biodesiel is cheapest if made out of mustard seed oil.
Idealy biodesiel would be made from organic waste products but the bush administration is treating it as a farm subsidy instead of a nation security issue
How do they fuel up the large tanks on the locomotives and how long does it take?
They connect a hose to a fuel inlet on the locomotive and pump gas through the hose.
Off-link: What is the quality of the fuel used on airplanes? How do they fill those extremely large tanks?
See above.
BTW, define "airplane." Propeller planes use internal combustion engines that are fueled the same way as cars. Jet planes use kerosene.
"Propeller planes use internal combustion engines that are fueled the same way as cars"
Except that they use highly volatile 100-octane gas. It has a blue tint to it.
Most commercial propjobs today use turboshaft engines (jet engines driving a propeller through a gearbox).
Well German engines during WW2 ran on 87 octane and there were some American engines that could run on 66. Still, the fuel of choice for American aviation was the 100/131 aviation fuel.
Jet fuel is delivered through 2" or largers hoses connected to the aircraft with a Parker Pressure Fitting. Fure transfer is at an extremely high rate of speed.
Ditto Locomotives. OK, a regular fuel fill cap and hose, but the pump is not like your father's Exxon pump. Check out how fast fuel fills at a truck stop. When we fill our ambulance at the diesel pump at a local station, is no problem. If we fuel at a truck stop, just you watch out! Them suckers are FAST!
Next time you are on a locomotive fueling dock, just glance at the equipment. More difficult this past year, but they used not to object to visitors on the platform. AMTK fuels in Minot, you can watch them from the passenger platform.
Elias
That would be
Parker-Hannifin Corp?
I meant commercial airplanes that include non-jet airplanes. (Like a Boeing 737, 747, 757, 767, 777) The first is not a jet but the last four are.
Do they use kerosene?
'Jet aircraft' whether directly vented propulsion force (look what the Redbirds did to me) or turbo props use aviation grade J-1 fuel. J-1 is ultra refined kerosene, clearer than tap water. There are additives like anti-gel, anti-fungus, high tension lubricants but lacking the hectane additives diesel engines require....higher hectane in diesels means fewer misfires during compression...aircraft jet engines need higher fuel votility. One thing considered for years was the addition of a gelling agent...fuel pumps could be adjusted for the thicker fuel...what the gelling agent would do is in the event of a crash, the fuel would tend to stay in one place rather than spread around and cooking off the survivors. BTW: Do you know where the fuel tanks are??? They are in the wings! CI Peter
BTW: Do you know where the fuel tanks are??? They are in the wings!
Only in the wings? The 767 has a capacity of 23,980 gallons and I don't know if all that can be stored in the wings. Am I incorrect?
I make trains go...not an airframe or powerplant mechanic. I understand that there are three tanks in the newest 'biggies'...one in each wing and an auxillary. The FAA recall has to do with fuel transfer between tanks...you don't want to fly an aircraft overweight on one side so you pump fuel to balance out the plane....the pumps are located in each tank and the idea is to keep enough fuel always in the tank to cover up the pump and smother out any sparks or static charges which could ignite volatile vapors. CI Peter
Kerosene is NOT volatile. Jet engines have fuel pumps which "atomize" the spray, that is, create a very fine spray with lots of surface area for combustion.
Kerosene is volatile when atomised...true....and you do NOT want hectane additives to prevent 'dieseling' that would reduce volatility under pressure. Key words: 'under pressure.' You misunderstood my point: J-1 must burn during first ignition and remain burning...anything anti-diesel could prevent continued ignition and terminate engine operation. I've played with many alternative energy sources and fuels: HH1, K1,J1, gasoline 95 to 101 octane,diesel 1 and 2, alcohol, vegetable oil, water. Didn't cook up 'cold fusion' in the kitchen though. HAVE PASSIVE SOLAR HOUSE....all this stuff is a time consuming money eating hobby and don't get me started on photovoltaics much less WindChargers. The best money saver is a multifuel furnace that you can 'gyp' the carters out of weekly garbage pickup and my mother is balking about the amount of garbage to burn...township road is seven hundred feet down the driveway. Winter is coming and the garbage burns up faster in cold weather. CI Peter
What is hectane? I know hexane, heptane, octane, and "isooctane" (2,2,4-trimethylpentane), but don't know what you mean by hectane.
Hectre? The version of an acre in europe.
No, they are ALL jets. The 737 is a jet just like all Boeing 7x7 models. There are no non-jet commercial aircraft currently in service, except for some minor puddle jumpers, mostly in other countries.
Still plenty of turbo props at the (ahem, kaff) "Albany INTERNATIONAL Airport." I'm surprised there's no more DC-3's. :)
They don't call us "Podunk on the Hudson" for nuttin'.
Well, my statement about propeller planes only in third-world countries stands. :-)
Heh. And here I was hoping you'd leap on the "International" bit. We find that amusing around here since it describes a charter flight that goes somewhere in Canada, usually empty. We've got a spiffy new airport here but folks would MUCH rather take the train. :)
Heh. And here I was hoping you'd leap on the "International" bit. We find that amusing around here since it describes a charter flight that goes somewhere in Canada, usually empty. We've got a spiffy new airport here but folks would MUCH rather take the train. :)
There are "international" airports all over the United States that never see any scheduled service beyond the borders of the good old USA. It is pretty ludicrous, how the name has utterly lost whatever meaning it might have had.
You actually should be happy up in Albany, at least you've got Southwest Airlines.
True, but I'd still rather take the train. :)
>>> There are "international" airports all over the United States that never see any scheduled service beyond the borders of the good old USA. It is pretty ludicrous, how the name has utterly lost whatever meaning it might have had <<<
An international airport is one at which flights originating outside of the United States may legally land. I do not think it has ever lost that meaning. Every international airport must have facilities for Immigration and Customs checks, even if it is only done on a part time basis when an international plane arrives so the pilot and passengers have to wait at the airport until someone arrives to check them.
Tom
How does a charter flight go empty? Did the passengers pay the airline and then not show up?
Not that the airline should complain. It got paid its fee, and wound up burning less fuel because the aircraft was empty.
Unless I'm missing an important detail?
Yes, the airline gets paid its fee. Fuel burn is about the same (passengers don't weigh much). The detail is that the firm that chartered the flight then goes bankrupt.
AEM7
"Fuel burn is about the same (passengers don't weigh much)"
I think not. A 767 aircraft weighing 230,000 pounds empty will not have the same fuel burn or flying characteristics as a 767 carrying 100,000 pounds of passengers, luggage and cargo (say, US mail or parcels). The engine settings on take-off, and length of runway needed for achieving rotation speed will vary. Another important factor is how much fuel is taken on, as that contributes a lot of weight as well.
A 747-400's empty weight is around 526,000 pounds. When completely full, take off weight can be 900,000 pounds. In Asia, some air carriers can stuff nearly 600 people on that airliner. 250,000 pounds (luggage and cargo included) makes a difference. An empty 747 can take off using only 5,000 feet of runway; the pilots can conserve fuel by not opening the throttles all the way. A fully loaded 747 can require up to twice that, with the throttles opened to full power.
Fuel burn will not be the same.
Nw, admittedly every plane does not fly completely full, and the marginal cost of each passenger is very, very small (negligible). But it is not true that it makes no difference whether the plabe flies empty or not.
Yes... but we were talking about a charter plane -- usually a Regional Jet, or at most a 737. Charter planes do not usually carry scheduled freight, and these planes only carry about 50-100 pax. Passengers each weigh on average about 150 pounds, so 100 pax is 15,000 pounds and that, compared to the weight of a RJ, about 150,000 pounds, really isn't all that significant.
Fuel burn would be substantially the same. Yes, it makes a difference, but not enough of a difference to be worth noticing. The point is that the aircraft still has to move even if no one rides it, and fuel would still be burned.
This is clearly a "glass half full, glass half empty" argument.
AEM7
Given your additional details, I agree.
Please note that even a 747 can be "chartered." Remember World Airways?
You burn a lot of wood with a bigger load but save a few cords if you pick up a tailwind. Mentioning Asian airlines brings back memories of KAL flight 007. Apart from the photographic sweep of Sakholin Island, the pilots were tweeking the flight path to save some fuel...Asian pilots get a bonus for the number of pounds of fuel saved.
Thank you. Wonder if US Airways should hand out those same bonuses to its pilots. :0)
Mentioning Asian airlines brings back memories of KAL flight 007. Apart from the photographic sweep of Sakholin Island, the pilots were tweeking the flight path to save some fuel...
What was the final word on that? Was KAL 007 spying? My understanding was that it wasn't a fuel related incident, it was a pure and simple pilot fuck up. They ran simulations pretending if the inertial based navigation system had been given the wrong coordinates at Seoul, what kind of path it would have plotted on the navigation given the mistake. They found that if they reversed two of the digits for the coordinate at Soeul airport, the flight path looked remarkably like what they actually saw. Of course, the subsequent radio transmissions in wrong locations weren't picked up because some other aircraft relayed their position.
Asian pilots get a bonus for the number of pounds of fuel saved. Wonder if U.S. Airways should introduce this for their pilots...
Fuel is hardly U.S. Air's biggest problem. What about a paycut for pilots who don't achieve certain prescribed fuel savings? That's what needs to be done, but donig that will probably break the airline, but then that's not to say that the airline isn't already broken enoyugh anyway...
AEM7
Officially, there was and never be any final word. Remember the souls lost of the USS Liberty ECM ship who died at the hands of Isreali fighter pilots. Remember the sailors of the USS Pueblo ECM ship incarcerated in a North Korean prison camp. 'Spying' is nasty and dirty business...KAL flight 007 had airframe fitted with sophisticated photographic equipment...no ECM to tweek up shore batteries...the object was to overfly the shore of Sakholin Island...a former Northernmost Province of Japan where islanders have been held as impressed labor since the end of WW2...and take pictures.
The pilots had been doing course adjustments to save fuel and do an overfly for photographic recon which i'm sure added to their bonus. The whole thing was in the UN General Assembly...I heard the Russian Comm tapes and the translations. 'Sorry...ees one beeg mistake.'
Turns out is it not uncommon for Asian airlines to overload aircraft to make an extra buck...just examine some of the crashes in the phillipines. The KAL 007 debacle opened a can of worms no one remembers or cares about today. Fuel usage is predetermined by past experience and weather...you cannot punish the pilots for flying an aircraft against weather and headwind. CI Peter
It's a scheduled charter flight ... dunno the details, don't really care. All I know is that it's an arrangement made so that the airport can be called an "international" airport. Don't mind me, I'm not really into planes or flying myself. Just went and checked and Air Canada flies some puddle jumper down for service to Montreal and Toronto apparently. I'd still rather take the train tho' ... :)
My dad and I were supposed to take the Montrealer once for a vacation (I was just finishing med school in Philly)- the year they had the rail strike. We wound up going to the Poconos instead...
Sorry you missed the chance. It's a lovely (though slow) ride and the run across the long long bridge just before you come into Montreal and underground is pretty nice as well. Best part of the ride though is the company of the other people on the train. MUCH nicer then even domestic runs ...
Best part of the ride though is the company of the other people on the train. MUCH nicer then even domestic runs ...
But they are Canadians! They are French! How could they possibly be nice!?
You're the one who admitted to never riding Amtrak long-distance... while I don't want to vouch for the integrity of those who ride the Sunset Limited and the Chief, you should at least ride the Lake Shore and the Pennsylvanian before you call Canadians Gods!!
Lake Shore, Party Train #449. All Aboard!
AEM7
Ummm ... bite me. I've done Chicago (Lake Shore) and I've done Boston, DC and Florida by Amtrak. And say what you will about the Canadians, EVEN le Quebecois have more cooth than most Americans. I've found Canadians to be clean, polite, friendly and very tolerant. Considering that they have US as neighbors, that's a good thing. And they often have highly amusing opinions of our ... "leadership." :)
Bottom line, they're FUN.
My apologies, given that you had done the LSL. I guess I mis-remembered.
I've found Canadians to be clean, polite, friendly and very tolerant.
Then we agree about the Canadians. It is precisely for these reasons I hate the Canadians. Canadians are charming, out-of-the-way nice, and probably "cleaner" than us. They are not real. They are full of shit, and they are nice to the extent that you want to puke and they are so nice that you feel bad about putting them back in their place.
The Brits think that about the Americans (that the Americans are too nice and Hollywood-like), and I hate to think what they would think of Canadians.
The suburbs are really "clean, nice, polite, and friendly". I chose the City.
AEM7
Heh. You've got to get out of the city, boy. Canadians are just like my neighbors around here. With one exception. Upstate New Yorkers ARE New Yorkers after all, they're polite but unlike our neighbors to the north, they pack HEAT. :)
Yeah, did the LSL with some buddies of mine. Always a cab ride on that trip. At least to Cleveland. Had to go back with the geese into the Windy city itself. Been a few years. And as to Canada, I've learned that I had to keep an eye on my own behavior when across the border as they're easily offended but won't TELL you that you offended them. And Montreal is as international a city as there is. Growing up in New York, it was familiar and MUCH cleaner.
And as to Canada, I've learned that I had to keep an eye on my own behavior when across the border as they're easily offended but won't TELL you that you offended them.
If you like that, you should go to England. England is like Canada but 20 times more so. I hated England, and that's why I bailed for the Great White North. Well, Great White Northeast at the moment, but I hope soon that would be North.
I hated the English for being easily offended. I hated the English for not telling you they are offended. I hated the English for being so damned polite. I am damned polite too, in some quarters... but at least I'm not phoney about it. People say New Englanders are hard to get to know... Canadians, worse; English, even worse.
For my part, I like the Prairies. Upfront and honest, as long as you aren't talking about their private life... a smile means a smile, not a smile with a knife in your backside...
AEM7
Different cultures have different values, but generally they're not so different anywhere that I couldn't see myself getting along just fine. I kinda draw the line at Taliban and those here in the US that would want to EMULATE the Taliban ... but you'll find many places here in the states that'll make you remember Britain fondly. It's a BIG country - all kinda pipples. :)
Quebecois are nice to your face, then mutter something behind your back...
Wow and in New York they don't do that right :-)
In New York they say top your face "You shut up. If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you."
Up front with guts stinkin Vichy pigs don't have.
Yeah, true...
Quest-ce que cest? Fetchez la vache! :)
I guess it all depends on whether you're willing to meet them half way. I've had WONDERFUL times in Montreal. I suppose you get what you give. Pictures of President Franklin are tres chic. Heh.
I'm not suggesting that you can't have a wonderful time in Montreaq, in fact Montreaq is quite the cultural city. However that doesn't mean I like their culture, their people, or their attitude. I love the Canadian Rockies, it's a pity that they are part of the same country as scums of Toronto and Quebeque.
AEMque
What can I say? I guess some of us just can't play nice with others which is why we have morons lobbing bombs in so many places around the planet. Growing up in NYC, I learned that lumping groups of people into a category will cause you to have no friends, that the actions of the occasional loose wingnut have no bearing on everyone else in that pigeonhole grouping. I have good friends from Vancouver to Moosejaw to Calgary to Toronto to St John's.
But I'm starting to see why you admire Texas. :)
Agreed. But it's fun to poke fun at them in private...
The fun is good when directed with good faith. 'In the Hole, In the Hole, SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!' The crew bites me in their broken English, 'Speak English!' So I'm doing troubles and my partner catches a supervisor: 'Blubblubblubblub inspection blubblub TTs blub AC compressor.' Not very nice...so maybe I don't have the experience but I received the EPA refrigeration license upon the first examination and want to learn more. My point has and always been...English is the language of instruction and safety. CI Peter
>>> Pictures of President Franklin are tres chic <<<
That just goes to show how poor American public education is. We were never even taught about the presidency of Franklin (or Hamilton either) in the schools I attended.:-)
Tom
What did Franklin do during his presidency?
AEM7
He made $20 bills ... VERY popular with the cabbies up in Montreal. :)
Hamilton was one of my personal favorites. But reading the "Federalist papers" is considered AntiAmerican these days. :)
For those powered by radial piston engines, you are correct.
That statement probably also holds for passenger aircraft utilizing pure axial-flow turbojets. An occasional French Caravelle, I'm told, can be found at Kennedy, and Airborne Express' old DC-8's still exist for freight service, but the rest are diappearing from North America.
An occasional French Caravelle, I'm told, can be found at Kennedy
It can? As far as I know, the only Caravelles still in service are with a few third-world airlines, none of which operate in the United States.
You are correct. Moreover, there really are only a few left. But remember that Kennedy has probably more third-world airline desks than any other US airport, so the third-world airliners do come here. Also, you may see a Caravelle which has been relegated to charter or cargo service.
The Caravelle was a very decent airliner for its time, a worthy competitor to early jets like the Convairs and early DC-9's and the 727-100.
TWA Express uses prop planes, I took one to Virginia Beach once. Unless they've changed since the mid 90s?
Skipping the responses, I have years of experience in alternate energy sources. I built a solid cedar (four inch thick machined timber wall) passive solar Justus-Lindal home with 344 square feet of double insulated low E glass. No natural gas line or propane...HS Tarms multifuel furnace set for #1/#2 oil and wood burning. No active solar system...too expensive and too problem prone when you are away. I use #1/2 HH oil/kerosene/diesel in the oil burner.
J1 jet fuel is ultra refined kerosene. #1/2 HH oil is 'stripped diesel.' #1/2 diesel has hectane additives and anti fungal agents (there is a fungus that thrives in light fuel oils.) Vegetable oils have plus and minus....renewable source but leave harmful deposits and cost more than fossil fuels...special filters are required. Until fossil fuels are cost prohibitive, veggy oil is only for the 'Mother Earth' crowd.
BTW: did my research into alternative motor fuels too....McD french fry oil can run a diesel IF exceptionally filtered with an additive.
John Deere 'Johnny Popper' two cylinder tractors can run on gasoline/diesel/naptha/paint thinner/veggy oil. CI Peter
"No natural gas line or propane...HS Tarms multifuel furnace set for #1/#2 oil and wood burning. No active solar system...too expensive and too problem prone when you are away. I use #1/2 HH oil/kerosene/diesel in the oil burner."
Even if you keep the burner in tip-top shape, you will have particulant and sulfur emissions which you would not have with natural gas. When I bought a house and fitted it with a new roof, I ripped out the old oil burner (it was damaged and beyond repair anyway) and installed natural gas, in part to to protect the roof. My roof has a white elastomer coating. Keeps my kitchen 20 degrees below outdoor summer temps without air conditioning.
Wood is even worse, pollution-wise.
Thanks for the info on the fungus. Fascinating.
I do not harvest and burn wood....too messy. What I do contrary to the 'waste carters' affirmations is burn my garbage in the furnace saving thirty dollars a month....the 'hick-ass twanging locals' stench the air with 55 gallon drum burnings. We do not have gas mains
up in Warren County, New Jersey and I will NOT use propane for water heating....LP is heavier than air and any leak is a ticking bomb. I do check the burner every week...when the plumber set up the furnace he had the wrong nozzle and it overburned without piercing the casing...wasted the cast iron isolation shields. When the 'collapse' does come, I have eight acres of active woodland...the 'trick is to escape New York City.'
One thing missing about home heating fuels....the residue is caustic!
I assembled two huge TV antenna arrays on the chimney...one for VHF channels 2 through 13 and a biggie for UHF with a microwave pre amp.
The smoke residue eats the electric connections...even ate the rivets off the lower UHF TV antenna relector and it fell off! DISH is good when you want a sparkly free picture and not hunting for 525 line resolution.
BTW: my roof with basic shingles is R37 Arctic Environment....house heating system shuts down in winter with passive solar BUT summer heat does get held in...have two rollaway air conditioners.
"When the 'collapse' does come, I have eight acres of active woodland...the 'trick is to escape New York City.'"
Collapse? Are you waiting for some evil conspiracy to come and take out the US?
Of course not! We've gone through tough times...riots, blackouts, a major snowstorm that halted NYC 'cold' and the World Trade Center destruction. Working for TA is excellent and stable work but at the rate things are going, a major economic 'collapse' is not so far fetched. Such a collapse would never match the Depression but would put millions out of work and just a few might turn to 'bad ways' to make ends meet. I believe in our economic system despite my shareholding losses...the electricity will flow, the phones will ring and the TRAINS WILL MOVE. CI Peter
As the rudderless economy becomes more and more visible even to ostriches, I suspect there will be "regime change" before your visions come to pass. Still, we're fattening up our wild turkeys, Bambi and her friends just in case. :)
I don't consume meat anymore. I have Bambi, wild turkeys, BEAR,groundhogs, squirrels, mourning doves and a whole lot more of the zoo about. Now, if you could tell me how to grind em up like 'Soylent Green'....got photovoltaics and storage batteries, homebrew 2 KW alternator, ammonia absorbtion refrigerator, lots of wood, 2 KW HF radio, busted tractor, 4WD Jeep........CI Peter
Heh. There's nothing like fresh Pheasant from the Pheasant Phresh Pheasant Pharm. I wouldn't eat the Bambis though, dunno where the meat's been lately. But who needs McDisney when there's BISONBURGERS! Yum. :)
And nothing like getting woken up in the middle of the night by the snoring of a black bear below your bedroom window. Thought we had a "guest" in need of a meal out there. Went out, flipped on the light and the little guy bolted off into the night. STRANGE snoring though. Between you and I though I think we're scaring the crap out of our city cuzzins. Heh.
So I'm walking about the driveway....the patch of evergreen seedlings
bunked in for future plantings are thirty feet high. I'm standing unarmed...I hear a nasal discharge. Thinking, thinking.......sh....
the big buck is standing on the other side of the tree where I'm at.
Jump up and scream...sucker can't ram me with a tree between us. Mom caught site of a bear sitting on my tractor...probably 'Yogi' from NJ Jenny Jump State Park. Winch 70 30-06 is always a fixr...bear is not protected species anymore. Moss 500ATP 12 gauge is 8 plus 1...maggie buckshot leaves little to be desired!
Bears? Feh. As long as you keep your property clean, they come through, they trudge on. I was saddened to hear about the baby that got scrafed up down south of here, gotta be careful never to leave food around for them or they move in and don't pay rent. Haven't had to shoot at anything since I moved here and hope to maintain that record.
But they're VERY irritating at Halloween when they ring the doorbell dressed up like cub scouts looking for treats. :)
You live up there with thems/thoses peoples? Wasn't the bears fault a tasty morsel was left behind....yellow Cherios boxes make better food targets! CI Peter knows animal control....CLAYMORE RULES by remote control. SK to the yard!
I live *way* north of Sullivan county, way north of Ulster county, up where the bears are registered to VOTE. :)
Rule number one when living amongst the animules is you NEVER provide human food for them. EVER. You don't litter, and your garbage is kept LOCKED and away from them to prowl. If camping, you keep your food IN the car, you keep the doors locked (because bears DO know how to open car doors) and you never leave anything that smells good near where YOU are. Damned shame what happened though down there, apparently the campers didn't know the rules. Bears are normally quite fearful of humans but as long as we keep enticing them with food to come closer to us and hang out, there's unfortunately going to be more of these unfortunate episodes. You don't feed the animals (or they become dependent) and you don't feed terrorists or trolls.
But like I said, so far, haven't had the need to shoot at anything.
Now I know how your buddy Joe keeps getting elected -- Bruins for Bruno.
Between the bears and the Wal*Mart crowd ... of course it'd be nice if there was someone running against him, but it's real hard to put a second picture on the Rensselaer/Saratoga county ballot. :)
Here's the lowdown on HHF and diesel: as far as BTU output per consumer use, they're pretty close. HHF#1/diesel#1/kerosene are light aromatics compared with HHF#2/diese#2 and are more like solvents...chuck twenty gallons of diesel into an unmaintained oil burner fuel tank and it'll dissolve all the bottom crap and your burners pump will be clogged. During a winter freeze that belayed oil delivery I hand-carried 440 gallons of diesel...one container broke in my company car back seat and I never got rid of the smell. The higher the fuel oil number, the higher the BTU output and the thicker the fuel is. NYC apartment buildings use #5/#6/bunker oil that requires the use of a heated tanker truck...the stuff stinks and can look like jelly...diesel contains anti fungal and anti gel agents along with hctane boosters.
1972 fuel tech 101: diesel engines. #1/#2 HHF and diesel are pretty much the same....HHF is NOT taxed for on the road use and you could siphon your HHF tank to run your VW diesel rabbit. HHF does NOT have diesel engine fuel additives or anti fungal agents....truckers would cut their D1/2 fuel with un-road taxed kerosene K1 as a winterising agent...New Jersey required by law a powerful red dye in untaxed K1...adding just a little bit would disclose a 'tax cheat' to highway inspectors.
Thanks for that info.
On the same token, how efficient were steam-powered engines? I know they're ancient and slow but actually how fast was it and what trains did they pull around in New England?
Also, how do vehicles use compressed Natural Gas for power? I know some NJT and misc. buses use this. How frequent is the fill-up?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Also, how do vehicles use compressed Natural Gas for power? I know some NJT and misc. buses use this. How frequent is the fill-up?
The engine is the same as a diesel engine, the tank has to be pressurized because it's a gas, you can't just put it in a tub and have it float like gasoline or diesel fuel.
Vehicles use LPG as a vapor and CNG as a gas. Carbouration mixes liquid fuel with air and produces a vapor. Fuel injection makes the conversion much simpler...a pressure regulator to prevent high pressure of combustible gas from 'flooding' the engine, some fittings and hoses and a few hardware/software mods. Original honda Civic CVCC banged a two cylinder motorcycle engine for 55 MPG. A Pogue carbouration system in an eight cylinder car got 200 MPG...what it did was convert gasoline into a pure gas for complete combustion...catalyctic converters in the exhaust system today burn off unburned fuel. Pogue had one major drawback besides size...gassified gasoline qualifies as a class C explosive...one spark and you go to Redbird Heaven.
What is a class C explosive?
Explosives are classified by the US DOT into three classes. Class A explosives are such materials as TNT and Dynamite. Class B covers heavy pyrotechincs such as skyrockets, starshells and other professional display fireworks. Class C would be common fireworks such as firecrackers, roman candles, and bottle rockets. I am surprised to find that totally vaporized gasoline isn't classed higher. One gallon of gasoline, weighing 6 lbs, properly vaporized, has the explosive force of 40 pounds of dynamite.
Circa 1972 Energy Tech 101. Liquid petroleum gas (a recovered by product from refineries) could be used to power gasoline engines. It took two gallons of LPG to equivilate one gallon of gasoline. LPG is clean burning but requires double fuel weight and HAS NO LUBRICATION ADDITIVES. CNG is better but reqiores tanks to hold 2000psi...I do not know the potential milage of that fuel but it is probably not much better than LPG. Very simple comparison based upon BTU output per gallon: gasoline 30 miles, diesel #2 60 miles, LPG 15 miles, CNG 18 miles. I would estimate fill up is the same...really big tanks ride high on roof busses.
CNG is delivered to vehicles as a high pressure gas. Since it is not a liquid like LPG or refrigerants like Freon, it takes up a lot of space hence the higher roofline on CNG busses. CNG fueled vehicles require 3000psi rated fuel tanks. Carbouration requires special modifications to accept CNG or LPG...modern fuel injected vehicles using gasoline or diesel are a bit simpler because the CPU oxygen sensor makes adjustment. Crew don't bust my chops!!! I'm simplifying the concept... There is Liquid Natural Gas...very expensive to produce. It must be refrigerated...cold like liquid oxygen. Two insulated tanks were built in Staten Island at the cost of several lives. Never utilised...an explosion would waste SI, Brooklyn, lower Manhattan and part of NJ.
Personally, I love straight alcohol. Cheap, easy to make, clean burning (has no lubricants,) BTU a little less than gasoline but tends to absorb water. Good drinking fuel too, 'eees propulsky' but harder to start on cool days. CI Peter
I thought CNG tanks are ONLY on the top since in a accident a CNG tank exploding underneth will filp the bus upside down in addition to "Roast Homo Sapien Ala Carte". The location where the fuel tank would be is empty (NYC orions). Are you saing that there are also CNG tanks where the Diesel tank would be?
Fuel overload!
What is HH, HHF, Kerosene, Diesel 1D, 2d, #2 fuel oil (what we use)?
Actually are there any websites dedicated to pertrolium devervatives? I find stuff intersting.
The only problem w/ Natural Gas for heating is 1, its explosive and 2, you can't store it on site at your house. If something happens to your gas connection or if there is a nuclear war, you'll be left out in the cold. The best solution is an underground 1000-2000 gallon tank in your yard (my neighbor has one dating from the 20's) and a reserve 250-500 gal tank of gasoline in your basement to run a generator.
You could run NG station with 1000-2000 gallons for about a week.
isn't desil exucest take more time to be processed by mother nature than wood fire?
December 8, 2002: Advance notice-NYCT Red Bird Trip by NYDiv-ERA
More details as they become available... Stay tune!
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!! Keep us Informed. I wonder what kind of cars will be used?? gggggggrrrrrrrrrhhhhhh I hate the cold weather. R 33 8840
It's a Sunday! Yay! I'll try to be there.
--Brian
By THEN... Very likely several of us will have
held/thrown our OWN Redbird Fan Trips... :)
Any Idea which redbirds will be used? Back on May 26th they used 1 pair of ML R 36s (9532/3) and 4 WF R 33 singles.
NJ Transit has 69 Comet 1's for sale the cars are the Pullman built cars 9 have toilets.
the price ranges from $10 k to 25 k
Details at http://www.marketplace.irail.com
NJ Transit has 69 Comet 1's for sale the cars are the Pullman built cars 9 have toilets.
the price ranges from $10 k to 25 k
Details at http://marketplace.irail.com
According to documents I have seen on the net, the City partially funded a subway tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island under the Narrows as part of the Dual Contracts. The tunnel was started but never finished.
Why not? Did the BRT's financial woes during WWI and later after Malbone Street kill it? Did Hylan kill it? It seems like the project was a fairly simple one. The tunnel could have emerged on the SI side at St. George and share the tracks with the SI Railroad. As it stands today, the SIR is woefully underused.
The tunnel was planned for some time, and work did begin in 1923, as to what killed it? Some say the financial hardshp the tunnel would create, others say the city.
One thing is certain: The B&O purchased a fleet of BRT Standard cars, to MU with the BRT fleet, and tunnel headings can still be seen directly south of 59th Street for this connection.
Shame it wasn't built.
The SIRT cars were consciously patterned on BMT Standards but, ironically, they couldn't MU, if for no other reason than that the Standards had H2A couplers while the SIRT cars used H2Cs, which wouldn't MU with them.
I suppose something could have been done to have them MU, but when the cars came to the TA no effort was made and they always ran by themselves.
I don't think the SIRT MUE-1 cars have H2C couplers. The A vs the C
designation has to do with the type of air brake system the coupler
is designed to handle. The H2A expects a 90-110 psi main reservoir
pipe, always charged, on the top tappet valve and the brake pipe,
0-70 psi, on the bottom. The H2C works with SMEE, having the brake
pipe on the bottom still, but always charged with 110psi (except in
emergency), and the straight air pipe on top, which varies from 0-110
psi. As a result, the H2C includes an internal reservoir to supply
the air to move the cutting piston, whereas the H2A draws the air
from the main reservoir pipe via an internal relay valve. The H2A
also requires an external brake pipe closing check vavle, while the
H2C head has this feature internalized.
So, I believe the SIRT car is an H2A head. However, the electric
portion, which can be changed independently, is different between
the BMT cars and the SIRT cars. The TA could have MU'd the cars
by replacing the portions on the SIRT cars with spares from the AB
fleet and making a few minor wiring changes, but I guess it was
not worth it.
Incidentally, the same retired transit cop who is big on the 76
St station has shown me newspaper clippings concerning the Staten
Island tunnel. Evidently a few hundred foot length was
constructed on the Brooklyn end, and he knows someone who has
gone in there. Not much to see and the lower portions are flooded.
I've read that the S.I. end never got beyond shafts being dug, and later on they were filled in with the dirt from the Verazzano Bridge construction.
I wonder what happened to the IND version of a subway to Staten Island where it was supposed to leave the F line around Prospect Park SW-15 St somewhere and go down Fort Hamilton Parkway toward New York Bay?
That part of system II died also with all the $$ problems with system I.
My version was leaving Church and MacDonald, going downstair (relay track) and onto Bay Parkway to SI.
You must be right. I checked the 1925 specs on the SIRT cars and it does indeed say H2A.
Now I'm wondering whether it was TA engineering or SIRT that told me nearly 40 years ago (yikes!) that it was H2C.
When the ex-SIRT cars arrived on TA property, chances are there may not have been enough spare BMT standard electric portions available. The BMT division needed every steel car it could get its hands on in the mid-50s. You're probably right - since we're talking about only 25 motor cars and five trailers which were never used in revenue service, it probably wasn't worth the time and effort to rework them.
The Staten Island tunnel was explicitly included but not funded in the Dual Contracts. I don't know much about the details of the abortive tunnel heading start in the '20s, but, as to that part of the "project," it was yet another rail project that died, not so much because of some active "killing" of it, but from failure to fund and proceed.
There's an oft-quoted story that the unlikely conspiracy of Mayor John Hylan and Governor Alfred E. Smith killed the Staten Island subway tunnel. Hylan, of course, hated the BRT/BMT companies, and Smith allegedly owned significant Pennsylvania RR stock. Remember that the Staten Island Rapid was a Baltimore and Ohio property, and the B & O was the Pennsy's arch rival in what today would be called the Northeast Corridor. The Staten Island subway tunnel would have no doubt increased the B&O's stock and possibly depressed the value of the Pennsy's stock.
So these two politicians, both Democrats but not necessarily allies, conspired to kill the Staten Island tunnel project for ever.
Informed sources tell me that the The Concourse Yard has no power....at this time....details as they develop.
Peace,
ANDEE
WOWWW! Imagine just sippin' a cool one with a slight breeze...no power...no full inspections or heavy troubles...just a days pay!! The very opposite of 'Redbird Undercar' or 'Emergency Root Canal.' AND my tooth is still throbbing. CI Peter
yea, REALLY
PEACE,
ANDEE
No big loss, they didn't pay the electric bill. They had a bad habit of leaving the scrap car's A/C running so I'm sure they earned their just deserts.
No big loss, they didn't pay the electric bill. They had a bad habit of leaving the scrap car's A/C running so I'm sure they earned their just desserts.
Looks like Steve forgot to pay the light bill....LOL
This just in???? It happened at 9 AM. A 600 volt feeder blew up under the maintenance shop. Power was partially restored before the PM rush to get trains out of the yard. Power was restored tot he maintenance shop at 9:40 PM but yard power is still officially out. Lay-ups may have to sleep at the Main-Line Motel tonight.
I guess no mints on their third-rail shoes tonight.
:0)
No mints on mine either. I reached home just a short time ago. just time for a shower, a nap and then back to the wide world of trains.
Water intrusion into the vault, no doubt? Looks like da Bronx got a bit of water over the last few days, so that'd be my guess. Unless of course you invited CI Peter over with his can of RAID to entice a few bugs outta de hole. :)
Yup, water, water everywhere. Of course it doesn't help that back in 1930, the braintrust of their day built Concourse yard in what was supposed to be a reservoir. We do hold water very well.
Heh. Know the neighborhood QUITE well ... attended DeWitt Clinton for four years. I guess the real estate was an offer the railroad couldn't refuse. :)
Hey, Shea Stadium was built on top of a garbage dump. The way the Mets have been playing lately, it's only fitting.
Hey hey hey hey HEY! They STILL got soul. If the Mets didn't suck, there'd be no miracles, bro. :)
Well, there was a miracle in 1969. We'll never see anything like that again.
Sure we will ... what's that motto? "Ya gotta believe?" And of course, "Next year." ... ya see, you don't HAVE to win to have SOUL. :)
Hey, give me a break...I just report the news as I get it. BTW, I understand that power was restored by 2200. Is this correct?
Peace,
ANDEE
Power was restored at 22:00 and back out about 01:30. It was restored a track at a time to get the AM put-outs out but 2 #4s didn't make it before the power went again. Permanent temporary repairs were done about 13:00 today - I hope.
Permanent temporary. I like that phrase.
Yeah, that's a good one.
It's not an uncommon situation. A case in point. This is a true story. While TA employees will understand it - for the rest of you, I assure you, this actually happened.
About this time of year, during the first year of the west nile virus scares (2 years ago?), there was a flood in Concourse Yard all the way in the back - near Lehman College. I went to investigate and found a fire hydrant was leaking significantly and the water was pooling. I called the plumbers who gave the call a very low priority. Finally, in desperation, I played the 'West Nile' card and called System Safety.
Within a few minutes, the plumber's control desk called me to find out what the problem was. I explained about the broken hydrant. I also told them specificly that I would have dealt with the problem myself but I needed a 'Tee' wrench to shut the hydrant off. They said someone would be dispatched immediately. I told him to make sure they had a 'Tee' Wrench.
About 90 minutes later the plumbers, all 5 of them showed up. I explained to one of them what the problem was and showed him where the leak was. He told the other 4 to relax because he was going to take care of the problem. About 20 minutes later he returned from the yard. I asked him , "Everything okay?" He replied, "we'll be back later!" I dreaded to ask the obvious but did. He replied, "We have to go back for the Tee wrench."
Ever deal with OGS? (Office of General Services) These guys were PROs compared to some of my own horror stories that wouldn't be on topic for here. But OGS wouldn't have KNOWN what a "tee" was, and they would have required the formation of a study group to develop specifications for one regardless of whether it was already sitting on a shelf. :)
CI Peter learns and knows........Concourse was once a resevoir. Meida Boriquen...fourty shoe beams to do tonight on R142s. BeH got the MS to check last nights inspections....six of ten cars needed redo of 'current collectors.'
BeH learned well !!!
BeH learned well!! Same MS went after us at 5AM using another shoebeam gauge and busts my chops after I explain the tekky stuff...he's a bookey ...partner comes by with team #1s gauge and we're on the money. BeH calls CI calibration and the truck comes by..both gauges are worn, remain in spec BUT the results between the two are NOT comparable. Condemnedable instrumentation....did metrology too! My partner and I did the work properly with tools not in spec.....still working on how to use a four way caliper in place of a wheel gauge....flange wear is a problem. CI Peter
You missed the blow-out at the 239th shape up office. The building has been treated for asbestos abatement and the flat roof poured straight down into the office upon desks and computers. McK went flippo....putting up safety barriers, PPE signage and 'If you want to be pee'd upon, stand here.' Helmets and respirators are required PPE equipment. I know I came from private industry working for 'cheapos'
that didn't 'fifth degree' my expenses because I'm frugal (cheap) but I cannot believe that TA upper management is trying to save pennies when we have a system to run! One thing the group will appreciate is that the Redbird records I updated were unscathed. Where does TA find these contractors?
Haven't you seen those people on sidewalks outside Jay Street..."Will do construction for food"? :-)
Main impression: why does the R142 completey suck you-know-what in comparison? The R143 automated announcement volume are set to a reasonable level, and the digital signs inside the cars flash the important informaton (route/nextstop/time) much faster.
I had originally not placed any priority on riding the R143 because I thought it was merely a longer, wider R142. Now I await the R160 order with a lot less trepidation.
Sidenote....their AC even works better!
The 143 is a newer car (though not by much), and Kawasaki is the builder. Kawasaki's stuff works "right out of the box."
The R143 is superior to Kawasaki's R142, IMHO. The R143's internal walls are made of a darker greyish fiberglass which makes for a more ambient lighting.
Everything I hated in the R142 was corrected on the R143. It was as if the bigwigs at Kawasaki read my mind.
Sounds good.
Can't wait to seem'em on the J.
"Everything I hated in the R142 was corrected on the R143."
Obviously the R142 and R142A were not prototypes like the R110 series, but certainly a company like Kawasaki (and hopefully others) will learn from any mistakes that were made in a previous order. -Nick
I will let you know how it is to Operate one for a full day if I get one the Sunday 9/8/02
Robert
Ok...I hope you do get one! -Nick
I was on a R-143 twice today, from Bway-ENY to Rockaway Pkwy., I was in Car #8176 around 2:40 pm and coming back I was in Car #8130 around 4:45 pm. Altogether, so far I've ridden a R-143 3 times.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
I rode it from Broadway Jnctn. to Union Square, getting on at approx. 1:50 PM. It was preceeded by a new set in "test train" service. I was x-ferring from the A and I saw the test train coming, and I ran up the ramp and over the stairs to the Manhattan-bound platform for nothing. Grrrr....
At Broadway I trasferred from the A Train.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
If Jerome yard has been modified for R142A maintainance just for those 7 trains which will replace the Redbirds, why not just make the #4 line all R142A? The R62's can be sent to the 7 and the 1 and 3 lines. R62's on the 7 will enable the TA to flush all the redbirds out the system, accomplishing its goal. Extra R62/A's can be used in place of the redbirds as backup and fleet expansion.
What do you think? All Stipulation Welcome.
The R62's and R62A's are similar Maintainance wise, Right? A yard which has a mixed R62/A fleet shouldn't have many maintainance issues , or would it?
Actually, the R-62 and R-62A are very different, maintenance-wise. They look almost the same, but the big stuff (propulsion and braking) is by different manufacturers and have a host of different parts.
David
Perhaps making the 7 all R62A, and making the 1 or 3 all R62 Is an option? Didn't the TA think about fleet commonality when only replacing the redbirds? Going through all the trouble of training and yard modifications sounds incredibly wasteful only for 7 trains.
I didn't know the 7 was going to get R142's. I thought the 7 was to become all R62's or R62A's
Don't worry. NYCT didn't know that, either.
David
If Jerome yard has been modified for R142A maintainance just for those 7 trains which will replace the Redbirds, why not just make the #4 line all R142A?
Actually, after reading his post again, it sounds like he did a typo and actually meant "4" instead of 7, since he was talking about Jerome yard. It confused the hell out of me though, but the post makes a little more sense now if you substitue the "7" with a 4.
Sorry everyone, I should have clarified: there will be seven R142A's assigned to the #4 line.
i thought they only came in sets of 5
or do you mean 7 ten car trains....
70 R142A cars will be assigned to the #4 line.
He meant seven trains, not the "number 7 subway line" :)
Yeah, I just figured that out too......makes more sense now.
The plan is for the 4 to be the only line with a mixed fleet. The 1/9 will be all R-62A's, the 2 will be all R-142's, the 3 will be all R-142's, the 5 will be all R-142's, the 6 will be all R-142A's, and the 7 will be all R-62A's.
What benefit would there be in sending the R-62's somewhere other than the 4? If the extra R-142A's needed came off the 6, what would replace them?
great news guys! i called my boss at MTA Metro North Railroad. she said she is speaking to medical department and this week she should be calling me back with a new position. she mentioned custodian, but i dont care because a job with MTA is still a good job. thank you all for ur support!
Good for you!
Congrats! If they don't pull the same nonsense they're pulling at transit, there's still the ability to move up once you're been at it a while ...
Some of us got to discussing McDonald's a few days ago. I thought I'd share this story as a follow-up. It's an example of adjustments to market demand, and one that probably was fairly expensive. We'll see if it works out.
Cargill is one of the world's largest producers of oils, sweeteners etc. and McD is probably its biggest single customer.
http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-biz-fries.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
I'll go back if they start serving Bisonburgers -- American Meat.
Still not so off-topic......McBagget remains the #1 fuel source for TA train crews! So I was sick from the heat an for the first time on the job I went MikkyD....six bucks for a big fry and a milkshake! What ever happened to the 'change from my dollar?' CI Peter
Mcdonalds is MAD expensive. Wendy's is a much better value.
Maybe so, but I really don't want to be in a store holdup thank you very much.
Huh? Wendy's gets robbed more than McDonald's?? I don't get it.
The flushing Wendys massacre...
Shmuck, that could happen ANYWHERE. It didn't happen because it was a Wendy's, it happened because it was a cash business in a busy area.
-Hank
Evil, harm, injury and even death can occur anywhere at anytime. This is a reality of law enforcement...some people are assumed to be relatively docile and make better targets for criminals. The Wendys incident was a-typical...what did happen was that the store personell
did NOT resist and the crooks panicked. Cash businesses operated by docile 'immigrants' are prime targets...better to eat from the 'ziplock' than to place yourself in harms way. All kidding aside, 7-11 convienence stores and 'fast food chains' in areas of high immigrant population are 'high risk environments' to be avoided.
You'll pay more to eat at them because of the higher potential 'loss risk.' Seven bucks for fries and a shake at McD....I'll freeze my vanilla yogurt and nuke Shoprite fries.
>>> The flushing Wendys massacre... <<<
Some people have short memories. That was no where near as bad as the San Ysidro, California Mc Donalds massacre a few years ago.
Tom
That's an islated incident. Completely irrelvant to the real fact at hand.
Many people say that McDonalds' fries haven't been the same since they stopped frying them in beef tallow some years ago.
one thing i will say i loved about working for Mcdonalds is i saw sooo many Transit workers it drove me nutz!
Nothing like being able to light a fry like a candle at both ends!!!
Of course the Hindi Veggy population has a problem with fries processed with MOOOOOOOOO! Not too many of them as train crew...no McBagget for them...they're all CAR INSPECTORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CI Peter
Do they speak English?
That's true. They taste a bit different. Beef tallow carries flavor very well.
Ok for testing only.....
Tell me what you think
I think Pirmann created a PREVIEW
feature for this purpose.???
nice red X.
Here's what you get if you right click on the Red X:
FORBIDDEN
You don't have permission to access /storage/1/v5/2/67/42/46426742sEcKAk_ph.jpg on this server.
Apache/1.3.22 Server at c4.webshots.com Port 80
I give up lol
Nice picture. What station is that?
Peace,
ANDEE
What? Did you see it. Others did not?
He probably clicked "view source" to get the link and then manually see the photo.
That's what I did. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
At shows up when I'm at work (ATM line to the cloud). However it fails at home (dial up 56K running at 33.6). I right click on the photo (or red X) to get properties and source. Then a cut and paste of the photo (http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v5/2/67/42/46426742sEcKAk_ph.jpgd) to see a D type rounding a curve and entering a station. What station is it?
here is a test !!
AND IT WORKS !! hee hee lol
lol lol lol
I would like date confirmations on the following events:
1- The date of the NJT Try Transit Festival...I got 9/29/2002 as the date for it. Is this still the date?
2- The day of the D-type Triplex trip being sometime in the third week in september...when is it again? I forgot from looking at older posts...
3- The Metro-North Open House being 10/19/2002. Is this the final date or does anyone know yet?
Many thanks for anyone who responds with the answers...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"I'm going, if it's the last thing I do!"
1) Correct
2) 22
3) 19 I think is kind of preliminary but that's what I have too
Many thanks to ya, Clayton...many thanks...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Festivals Galore!"
And NY Days at Branford is Sat/Sun Sept. 28/29.
Come ride old stuff from NYC (trolleys, el & subway cars)
And Subtalk Day at Branford is on Sunday Oct. 13!
Right, the R-9 #1689 moaning & groaning as only she can do while riding in the company of some of your friends, isn't life great !
See the coming events for more details.
Sign up in advance with Steve, or Sparky.
Ah Hem!
I think that Dave is way ahead of you.
Try Up Coming Events on this site!
: ) Elias
Ya see, Elias...
If you looked at the post more carefully, I wanted date confirmations, not to tell everyone when things are..., but thanks...
Cleanairbus
Ok I called today and spoke to the union seems they have no comment on the off the street T/O test.To which I replied What good are you anyway.I was not satisfied! I called for 3 hours straight and finally talked to Mr Tousaaint ,he said they have no input on what tests DCAS offers,that he had NOT REALIZED that the test was put on the website.
He also stated and I quote "Its hard keeping up with every little detail".To that which I replied F YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!Screw you if your a little busy you have alot of angry people and you cant keep up with this.Then he should of never run for the title.To all those interested I tape recorded the Phone call Post that you want it and you will recieve an email with the voice of the traitor.New Directions My ass More like Same old direction.
Actually I would LOVE that tape. I have an employee newletter and the humor issue is coming up.
The test IS NOT on DCAS web site.
It is on the MTA site, I made the same assumption. If you notice the DCAS listings don't really cover the full year.
You know, I never wanted to go off on anyone, especially those like you who are in the right, but what the hell are you going to do about this? Union business isn't easy work. Management is always going to look for ways to screw you, and they found a way to do it and make you think it was your own flesh and blood who pulled the trigger. If you got all the balls in the world to tape a phone conversation, then you should be out there writing leaflets and handing out flyers. I wasn't the biggest Toussant supporter when I was a shop steward, as well as I wasn't the biggest Corrine Scott Supporter when I was a shop steward for the old regime. You can be angry all you want at Roger, you should take your anger to the division as well to keep them on their toes. Be careful about posting phone calls taped with or without consent. He has a lot more backing from union attorneys than a crew room lawyer. I'm not making him out to be a saint, but if you want the job done right, YOU run for a chair position and see what it really takes to keep you out of trouble.
First I had consent ,Second What makes you think I am not out there handind out buttons and fliers.Third I have been involved with this union for over 4 years from the ground up so I have seen the change from my own eyes.
C'mon, you expect me to believe that he actually knew he was being recorded, and, actually consented to his taped conversation of himself being told to F himself being placed on the web? And how am I to give you any credibility when you flip out and tell someone to F himself after he "didn't know"? Investigate his claims, prove he is a liar and you will win my sympathy. Until then I believe the TA promised the Union they would give a promotional, and then reneged. The union has been lied to by management. And we have been lied to by them, as well as the union, but until you can prove it, I wouldn't pay my dues to you. I have seen plenty of changes within my time, and unlike your 4 years, I worked under Sonny Hall, I like the present situation over the past hands down.
If you are still that mad I would check with DCAS in person and see if there is also a promotional version being offered around that time. BOTH DCAS schedules were incomplete on their web site.
If you are involved ask someone what happened at the AM special stewards meeting with the RTO people.
Even if one hand knew about this they were not about to tell the other hand.
That is why it is called 'New Directions.'
Unfortunately new direction is still the wrong direction.
Send ME an e-mail and I will post it in my shop. We have other incidents posted already. TWO years have elapsed and none of the 'bigwhigs' have shown up at 239th Yard. Why is it that the skilled/experienced titles make just a couple of bucks an hour above cleaners??? Sledgehammer Time has arrived......DC37 for the bottom and UAW for the top.
It's time for a rant:
Is it that time of year again? Yes it is! Introducing Autumn in NY to be held by the Branford Electric Railway Association, operator of the Shore Line Trolley Museum. Our annual activities take place on Saturday, September 28th and Sunday, September 29th. SubTalkers will have an opportunity to view and ride many of the cars that came from NYC.
What's your favorite? We've got a Brooklyn Trolley from 1906, a wooden Manhattan El Car from 1878, and a modern NYCTA steel subway car from 1955. You get this and much, much, more. So take an opportunity to visit the Shore Line Trolley Museum located in East Haven, CT. Take a special offer as a member! If you become one, you'll receive a lesson on how to operate a subway/trolley car of your choice at the end of regular operations. Don't miss out!
Many of the SubTalkers you know here will be in attendence. I'll be there both days in Uniform and Operating. BMTman, Thurston, JohnS, Lou from Brooklyn, and Jeff H. are just a few names to be there. Why don't you come out and meet us!
It will be great! Be there or be square! For further information, go to www.bera.org.
-------------------------
It's another shameless plug. BMTman and I are heading up today to work on R-17 Car 6688. Me thinks a Diamond of a Man and the local Station Agent will go shopping for goodies for the lady in red.... Yeah! I got to get her ready for 9/28. Hell, I know what I'll be doing, and that's playing subway car motorman for a day. Oh yes, and I'll also be running down the tracks of history in one of our beloved streetcars. Someone's got to entertain the millions, and the millions! I can't wait.
This Is My Lady In Red:
I hope to see everyone in a few weeks.
-Stef
Besides Stef's personal favorite we'll have operating:
- R-9 #1689
- Lo-V #5466
- Hi-V #3662
- Brooklyn Elevated #1227, from 1903
- Manhattan Elevated Car G (41), from 1878
- B&QT PCC #1001
- BRT Convertable trolley #4573, from 1906
- TARS trolley #629, recently back from Vienna
- Union Ry (Bronx) trolley #316, from 1895
Some of the above may be made up in trains.
Also on the property & accessable (for photos) will be:
- H&M #503
- SIRT #388
- BMT Standard #2775
- BRT Blind Trailer #197, from 1888
- Newark City Subway #27
- TARS trolley #220 from 1892 (was a cable & conduit car too)
- Nassau Elect/B&QT trolley #1792
- BRT MOW Plow #10
- TARS MOW Snow Sweeper #S-36
- IRT MOW Hose Car #53
And tours will probabaly be available to see the Mineola.
Mr rt__:^)
To continue the shameless plugs, the New York Division of the ERA is running its annual bus to Autumn in New York at the Shore Line Trolley Museum on Sunday, September 29th. The bus leaves Port Authority Bus Terminal at 9:00 am and Central Park Avenue at McLean in Yonkers at 9:30 am. Fare is $40 round-trip. For more info and reservations, call (212) 986-4482 on Mondays between 6:00 and 7:00 pm.
Sid, I hope my BusTalking friend is on that bus, as Branford has a few bues too AND recently some folks there are getting interested in getting them operational ... both the GM old looks were started recently by our friends at Double A.
Thanks for the shameless plug! I'm gonna see if my son would like to go.
BTW, methinks that's the first time I've ever seen an R-17 signed up as a 7. Did any R-17 cars ever run on the 7?
Yes they did, on two separate occasions. A group of R-17s ran on the 7 in the early 60s prior to the arrival of the R-36s, then when the WF R-33 singles went out for GOH, another group of R-17s filled in for them. They were even painted Fox Red; IIRC 6688 was included in that group.
Here are a few views from the 60s.
Check out those pasted-on side signs. Here's another:
Looks as if 6556 needs a paint job. Interestingly enough, those R-17s which ran there in the early 60s were usually intermixed with R-15s. This looks like a solid consist, although there may be some R-15s further back.
What is that in front of the R-17 in the first picture? It looks like a piece of work equipment.
-Stef
I think you're right. It does look like a work loco of some sort. Chances are the R-36s were being delivered to Corona Yard when that photo was taken.
Sign me up!
In the 60s, some R-17s were sent to the 7 to provide service.
A few R-17s returned in the 1980s to Flushing to fill in for R-33 singles undergoing overhaul.
-Stef
I'll be there on the 28th...
Also, see the Upcoming Events section on this website for information on the SubTalker Gathering at Branford on Sunday, 13 October, including a special charter of 1689. I'll be there for that as well, as will a number of other SubTalkers from far away places (Denver for one).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Count me in as well, all the way from Florida
Steve Loitsch
All T/O's and C/R's hired after 9/11 are required to operate a light train around South Ferry Loop to familiarize themselves with the route. Management wants everyone to be prepared for the Gap Filler at South Ferry. This is the reason they were running so many light trains around South Ferry Loop today. This will continue through Saturday at Midnight.
You mean Division A T/O's C/R's??
I guess so. The memo simply said "C/R's and T/O's hired after 9/11/01.
I saw one at Chambers St. Tuesday morning going into service. I was hoping the #2 train I was on might run express. Alas, we did not, as we waited for almost 4 minutes for the #1 train to leave and the signal to clear. Grrrrr ....
Hmmmmm. Surprised they made that 2 train wait. Most 2 trains were running express in some form yesterday. Especially s/b between 96 and TSQ and n/b between Chambers and 14.
I wish. I was angry it didn't.
i did a little rail fanning yesterday and on my way home on the 1 i decided to get off at Chambers and look down the tunnel to see how much of the new construction i could on both sides.i wasnt in any rush to get home either.anyway i looked at the uptown side first,couldnt see much because of the small curve before the station. during those couple of mintues i stood looking back there i thought about how great it would be to see a train come through there.lo and behold about 2 mintues after i crossed over to look at the downtown side,a 1 train,empty came through.i got so ticked off,i wanted to see it come and thinking that there wasnt gonna be one coming through for quite awhile i crossed over to the other side.still when i saw it,i got this feeling of excitement,it was so unbelieveable.almost a year since the worst day ever and the that part of the subway destroyed, not even i wouldve imagined it would be so quickly before service was restored.hard to believe that 369 days later,everything will be back to normal huh? i cant wait till 9/15 comes around,im gonna go to the SI Mall that day and finish off the whole trip from SF on the 1.if anyone wishes to come with me let me know.and make sure to buy a 1 day pass because going to the SI Mall isnt all im gonna do.
Do these light trains stop at Rector and South Ferry?
No. A 'light' train is running Not In Service - no passengers, no stops.
I have a zip file with bullits from 1967 and the present including diamonds, double letters, Future Numbers and letters (10, 11, 12, 13, P, U, X, Y, Train to the plane, and others. the files are in Gif and BMP.
I will Send Them by e-mail request, please place *bullits* on the subject line.
mapman_sp@yahoo.com
I heard that due to the crowds that were anticipated for the Caribbean-Day Parade (on Labor Day) that the TA placed Conductors on the two-car train units for the day. Was anyone aware of that?
What NYCT SHOULD have done was add on another set of 68's to each train for the heavier loads. All station can handle 4-car trains...it would have been a good test-run for the additional car lengths...oh well, maybe next year.
Well, I got to go now mon....Ireeeee
Da BMTmon
We all know that Hippos are B-I-G enough to handle lots of folks while they lumber along :-(
Franklin Shuttle station can only handle 2 R68's since it was rebuild three years ago. Has for C/R on the train this happen every year since it opens. For what I hear the crows are so big that the Cruw sometime has to go out the end door out side the train to change ends. If this is the case that the TA shout have put two T/O on each train for two reason 1) to ceep from have to change ends and 2)to speed up turn aroud. Has for putting another se of car on, it can't be done. The line only can handel two train on line becouse of the one track from Botanic Gradons to Franklin Ave.
Robert
Except for Prospect Park you mean, all other stations can only platform two cars.
Do they though out the schedule or just run with a C/R on the normal weekend schedule??
That I don't know, but it sound like when every that train can leave it leave.
Robert
All stations besides Prospect Park are only 170' long and cannot handle more than 2 car trains of 75 footers. This and the one track thru Park Place severely limits capacity and magnifies the idiocy of the rebuilding plan.
no it cant handle 4-car trains anymore.the stations were rehabbed to handle only 2 car sets of 75 foot cars.
I forgot about da mon...tanks alot, mon...
Which stations besides Prospect Park can handle 4-car trains of R-68s? Each of the other Franklin Shuttle stations has 170-foot-long platforms, long enough for two R-68s and no more.
David
Posted on Tue, Sep. 03, 2002
Student lands in legal trouble for photographing police cars
He says it's a hobby. Police cite Sept. 11 security fears.
By Jonathan Gelb and Benjamin Wallace-Wells
Inquirer Staff Writers
Mohammed Budeir says his hobby is harmless.
As with devotees around the country, Budeir says he enjoys taking photographs of police cars to post on the Internet. Sure enough, the Web is full of such sites created by those who, like Budeir, are drawn to the esoteric pursuit of collecting such pictures.
But in an anxious post-Sept. 11 world, his hobby has put him at odds with police in Willistown Township in Chester County, after they discovered Budeir, 20, a Villanova University student from Wayne, taking pictures of police cars without their permission last month. Police charged him with trespassing and disorderly conduct, saying the FBI had warned them to look out for would-be terrorists taking photos of emergency vehicles.
So are police getting excited over nothing? Or is there reason to be concerned over Budeir's behavior?
In the next few months, the Chester County District Attorney's Office will answer those questions in part by deciding how vigorously to prosecute the case.
In the meantime, Budeir and police remain deadlocked over the meaning of a case that both sides agree would have been a non-issue before Sept. 11.
Budeir, a U.S. citizen of Syrian descent, wanted the photos for his own collection, said his attorney, Richard Meanix.
"It would seem that his crime is not a real serious one," Meanix said.
He said Budeir is part of an online community - composed largely of former police but also including civilians - that is fascinated with police vehicles.
One such site, copcar.com, gets between 4,000 and 5,000 Web hits a week, said owner Dave Arnold, a retired Colorado police officer. Arnold said private citizens sometimes hoard police memorabilia for the sense of power and the thrill.
A quick Internet search reveals dozens of such sites, some that include photos of police cars from departments in the region, including those in Philadelphia, Norristown, Chester City and West Chester.
To some law enforcement officials, however, such sites could be dangerous.
"Our hypersensitivity is about people taking detailed photos of a police car to duplicate those markings," said Joseph Angelino, chief of police in Norwich, N.Y., and an expert in police collectibles. He said there was heightened concern among authorities that police cars, ambulances and other emergency vehicles could be cloned.
Willistown police said Budeir was acting "suspiciously" on the two days in August when he came to the police station to take photographs, though they stop short of alleging that he is involved in any organized crime ring.
Police chief Hugh Murray said a Willistown officer first noticed Budeir in the station's rear parking lot taking photos of police cars with a digital camera on Aug. 1.
The officer became suspicious - not because Budeir was Middle Eastern, Murray said, but because the department had received the FBI warning earlier in the week.
Budeir complied when asked by the officer to delete the photos and was told not to come back unless he had official township business, Murray said. But according to court papers, he returned the next day, when another officer saw him taking pictures of the cars.
When confronted, Budeir explained that he was taking the photos because he posted them on the Internet as a hobby. But the officer became suspicious when Budeir could not name the Web site where he displayed them, Murray said.
Budeir did not return calls for comment. No one answered the door at his Wayne home.
Last week, Budeir waived his preliminary hearing in district court in West Chester. In doing so, he applied for the county's Accelerated Rehabilitative Disposition program, an informal probation for nonviolent offenders. Entrance into the program would allow Budeir to perform community service while on probation and then apply to have his arrest expunged from his record.
If he is not approved for the ARD program, he would have a preliminary hearing and the case would proceed toward trial.
First Assistant District Attorney Patrick Carmody said the process of deciding whether to approve Budeir for ARD may take "a couple of months." Carmody said the office will weigh the seriousness of the crime, whether he has a criminal record, and "particularly, the fact that he was asked to go away and then came back."
In the meantime, the case has one clear meaning for Budeir's attorney. "It is an example about how careful one must be in his actions after Sept. 11," Meanix said.
The department was stupid about the way they handled that.
However, the student was not very smart either. He could photograph to his heart's content on the public street. Instead, he entered the police station's parking lot without permission.
Gee it like we can photograph the subway from the street all we want, but don't do it from the platform.
You can photograph the subway from the platform. Just don't use a tripod, and don't be obnoxious about it.
Police cars are often parked on the street, and there's nothing wrong with photographing them there. If you ask permission in advance, you can photograph them at the station too.
Use a long length lens, starting at around 100mm, you could stand on a sidewalk and photograph vehicles in an adjacent parking lot quite easily.
-Robert King
>>> Gee it like we can photograph the subway from the street all we want, but don't do it from the platform. <<<
Of course there is less possibility that terrorists will want to replicate a subway car than a police car. (I hope heypaul is not being held in secret detention somewhere). :-)
Tom
With all those surplus RTS buses, maybe bus photographers should be next on the list.
Yeah, I can see terrorists pulling up in a single car slant 40 in front of the municipal building and blending in with the other trains sitting outside the front steps without being noticed. :)
Back when "Poppy" was President, there were a lot of people digging bunkers too, and "survivalists" were everywhere. Back THEN I determined that if THESE were the people that were going to survive a conflagration, I wasn't so sure I wanted to be among the survivors. :(
I guess the Paoli cops should get rubber bed sheets!
I consider myself a civil libertarian, but I don't have much sympathy for this guy if the facts as stated are correct.
- A police car parking lot is not a place where the public has the right to be, any more than a subway yard or a bus parking lot is.
- He was supposedly asked to go away and came back. If I asked someone to leave my front yard and he came back, I would want himaarrested too.
It might still be overreaction by the police, but it strikes me as totally constitutional (always assuming the facts are as stated).
It also doesn't strike me as a major crime, but then again no one is saying he's going to go to jail for years or anything.
This can only happen in Paoli. That's Philly suburbs for you.
In Boston, the police officer would probably just lamp you one and told you to eff off the property.
Is there ANYTHING in Paoli worth terrorizing? So far, ALL terrorist attacks have occured in NEW YORK CITY with the exception of a SMALL handful of other "attacks" in and around D.C. So where's everybody flipping out? Atlanta, doomtown and the tri-color area. Remember West Nile? Didn't matter when people in Queens and Staten Island died. By gum, now that it's deep in the heart of them Red states, NOW it matters. Has everyone lost their frigging MINDS?
Please note, for security purposes, no photography of SelkirkTMO is permitted. Embargo enforced by Howitzer administered by a secret controller stand in the basement. Sheesh.
The department was stupid about the way they handled that.
However, the student was not very smart either. He could photograph to his heart's content on the public street. Instead, he entered the police station's parking lot without permission.
Gee it like we can photograph the subway from the street all we want, but don't do it from the platform.
You can photograph the subway from the platform. Just don't use a tripod, and don't be obnoxious about it.
Police cars are often parked on the street, and there's nothing wrong with photographing them there. If you ask permission in advance, you can photograph them at the station too.
Use a long length lens, starting at around 100mm, you could stand on a sidewalk and photograph vehicles in an adjacent parking lot quite easily.
-Robert King
>>> Gee it like we can photograph the subway from the street all we want, but don't do it from the platform. <<<
Of course there is less possibility that terrorists will want to replicate a subway car than a police car. (I hope heypaul is not being held in secret detention somewhere). :-)
Tom
With all those surplus RTS buses, maybe bus photographers should be next on the list.
Yeah, I can see terrorists pulling up in a single car slant 40 in front of the municipal building and blending in with the other trains sitting outside the front steps without being noticed. :)
Back when "Poppy" was President, there were a lot of people digging bunkers too, and "survivalists" were everywhere. Back THEN I determined that if THESE were the people that were going to survive a conflagration, I wasn't so sure I wanted to be among the survivors. :(
Well I printed out my files for filing to take the Train Operator Exam (#2085), I plan to be the first one to file them on May 7th and pass whatever test is required. I need this job to primarly achieve my dream of driving a train and help me pay for college (I am in going in to my senior year of H.S.) I know alot of people who work for the MTA, primarily conductors who are pissed off at the fact that the next test is Open Competitive and not a promotional test. I do feel bad in a way because of that, it goes through my mind that "hey I might be taking the oppertunity away from a condutor to make more money and he or she might have a family" but I want to take the test, because my life is beginning and it beats working at a McDonalds. I hope I pass, and that I do, and if I become one and the day when I enter the crew room and they look at me with anger and disgust, I'll just say I'm sorry and go right to my train. Yes I do believe it is wrong that it is no longer promotional, because a train driver is a definite good position with good pay. I just hope that the people who already worked through the promotional system will not hold a negative judgement against those taking the test for Train Operator, because we're all trying to do the same thing, live our lives.
The DCAS test list http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/html/examschedule.html
does not list Train Operator as test given. The list is covers The following exams are scheduled to be open for filing from July 2002 through June 2003.
Unless DCAS lists the test, it ain't gonna happen.
Here is the 1999 exam announcement for O/C http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/pdf/trainoperator.pdf
Here is the current list of Open Competitive Trainsit Jobs (Promotional below):
Transportation Exams
September 4 - 24, 2002 filing Structure Maintainer, Group E
October 2 - 22, 2002 filing Structure Maintainer, Group F
October 2 - November 26, 2002 filing Signal Maintainer
Transit Electrical Helper
November 6 - December 24, 2002 filing Transit Electromechanical Maintainer
December 4 - 24, 2002 filing Highway Transportation Specialist
Maintainer's Helper Group B
Power Cable Maintainer
Telephone Maintainer
December 4, 2002 -
January 22, 2003 filing Bus Maintainer, Group B
January 2 - February 25, 2003 filing Car Inspector
February 5 - 25, 2003 filing Traffic Enforcement Agent
February 5 - March 25, 2003 filing Light Maintainer
April 2 - 22, 2003 filing Structure Maintainer, Group A
Structure Maintainer, Group D
Promotional Exams:
Filing Month Title Exam No.
September 4 -
September 24, 2002 Bridge and Tunnel Sergeant 2517
Bus Maintainer, Group A 2518
Engineer, Architect and Landscape Architect Series: Architect, Chemical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Electrical Engineer, Environmental Engineer, Landscape Architect, Mechanical Engineer
October 2 -
November 26, 2002 Signal Maintainer 2519
November 6 -
November 26, 2002 Maintenance Supervisor (Structures, Group B) 2527
Highway Transportation Specialist 2505
Police Officer 2538
Transit Electromechanical Maintainer 2521
December 4, -
December 24, 2002 Highway Repairer 2506
Maintainer's Helper Group B 2539
Power Cable Maintainer 2529
December 4, 2002 -
January 22, 2003 Bus Maintainter, Group B 2522
January 2 -
January 22, 2003 Maintenance Supervisor (Power Cables) 2514
Maintenance Supervisor (Power Electronics) 2531
Maintenance Supervisor (Track Equipment) 2532
January 2 -
February 25, 2003 Car Inspector 2540
February 5 -
February 25, 2003 Associate Railroad Signal Specialist 2525
Supervisor (Stations) 2520
February 5 -
March 25, 2003 Light Maintainer 2534
March 5 -
March 25, 2003 Collection Supervisor (Revenue) 9561
Power Maintainer, Group B 2537
Check the MTA site...
Maybe the test is after June 2003 if the filing deadline is May 27.
What are the qualifications for this exam?
To read and speak English, to be over the age of eighteen,to have physical coordination and functional vision, to have some work experience of responsibility and to have a flashlight stuck against one ear and have the light come out the other. CI Peter
Go to the DCAS site and look at the old exams notices.
They might add drivers license to the requirements. Some of the operators that had the most trouble did not drive or did not drive much.
The link is in my post to the old .pdf.
Listen reading a thread that they are interested is beyond them. How do you think they will do on the test.
Heh. You haven't seen the civil service "battery test" have you? If they don't read, don't pay attention and don't think, they'll score 100 before zone scoring. :)
Hold your horses Sparky.
The last time they wanted 5 years full time work experience for the job.
It is also almost impossible to go to college and be on the road extra list which now lasts for the first 2 years + of your employment. They can accomodate you but they don't have to and some seem to slam you down with glee.
>>>"Hold your horses Sparky"<<<
Hey Wannabel, watch the use of the name "Sparky", I'm in no way
involved in this posting or treads. I'm beyond the age of taking
an o/c exam for the job. I'm just reading the treads, so please
refrain from using "Sparky" out of context. >G<
;| ) JohnS AKA Sparky
Sorry, I did not see the little TM on the name.
It's not TM, just that it could of been "s" instead of an "S". Hey don't take it wrong, just razzin. :-)
I know what you meant, just being obnoxious this morning and couldn't resist. If I offended, pardone wa.
;| ) Sparky
If I had said Chief the NA's would have been mad so would the homeless.
Maxwell Smart's boss would have also wanted a few words with ya. :)
You'll only be on the Extra list for 2+ years if you go to the A division. B division people move up a little faster. I believe there are people who came off the street in Winter 2001 who already picked jobs for the upcoming B div pick.
As far as going to school, well, I just met a C/R with just 6 months on the job who is going to school full-time. He filled out a G-2 form claiming "hardship", so the Crew Office gives him the days he needs off, and the hours he needs to finish classes before coming to work.
Story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/15914p-15065c.html
It's about time, It have only been 6years since the T/A and other line started using them.
Robert
Gee, Bus trips to Westchester!
IIRC, there is a different fare structure used on Bee Line Buses than
the base $1.50 of New York City buses. And I think there is a charge
for transfers also. Also is there a surcharge on the Bee Line bus from
Fordham to Mount Vernon?
;| ) Sparky
The last time I rode, there was a surcharge on the 60 or 61 routes to cross from the Bronx in to Westchester, and vice-versa. I also believe there is (or was) a surcharge on that route that goes from Bronxville to the Secor Houses near Dyre Ave. Which seemed crazy, because the other route that terminates at Dyre Ave Subway never had a surcharge.
that would be the 55 Cross County Shopping Center- Dyre Av Subway Station.I rode it once and i liked it.
You should know the answer, after all, you know everything about transit, right.
Peace,
ANDEE
theres a surcharge on the 60 if your going to White Plains from the Bronx. an 85 cents surcharge,so it costs $2.25 to go there via the 60 plus there's also a surcharge on the 21 Limited bus from White Plains- Bedford PK.and yes there is an extra charge for transfers,35 cents.
If this proposal goes through, BeeLine's base fare will probably go up a dime to $1.50 - but then the MetroCard transfer to the subway or another bus will be free.
the thing that bugs me is WHY is there a surcharge in the first place?
I mean,cmon why do we gotta pay $2.25 to go to White Plains from the Bronx on the 60 when we can pay the regular $1.40 on the 20,the same goes for the 21 which RUNS WITH the 20 the whole way except it doesnt stop at the Cross County Shopping Ctr and it makes limited stops.to me that surcharge crap is the most crazy thing i ever heard in my life.oh yeah it also costs $1.40 on the 1W from VCP-WP.that further proves my point on why its stupid.
The 21 is the 'express' version of the 20, a 35 minute ride. As for the 60, an 80 minute ride vs a 111 minute ride on the 20. Having taken the 20...anything faster, is better.
-Hank
um its the other way around.the 60 takes longer than the 20.it only takes the 20 usually no more than 70mins while it takes the 60 90 or more.I've been on both buses already so i know.And even though 60 is one of my favorite numbers,in this case,i wish it wasnt.
Thanks for the data and input about the Bee Line fare sturcture.
For Bee Line to enter the Metro Card spectrum, there has to be a
lot of thought before hand as to its productive return in the fae
box. Basically the base fare + transfer in Westchester is $1.75
vs $1.50, New York City.
And for those of you who need the faster ride, it may not be a subway
but the intermediate fare between Melrose thru Wakefield to White
Plains is only $2.00 on Metro North Harlem Line. That's inexpensive and speedy.
Besides your get to ride cushioned seats on the R44-46-68 look-a-likes.
;| ) Sparky
Metro-North can be a good value.
..."Metro-North can be a good value"...
Yes, it can if boarding north of 125th Street or Grand Central.
Intrastate fares very economical on the New Haven division also.
Don't have the Hudson Division full schedule handy at this time
thought. So check out Metro North off peak, going your way.
Many of Mrs. Sparky's co-workers ride from Fordham to White
Plains on the reverse commute, particularly if they can connect
with the IND Concourse Line.
;| ) Sparky
LIRR can be cheap also if boarding and departing both east of Jamaica.
Yes indeed.
In some cases LIRR is cheaper if you go to Jamaica! Off-Peak Zone 3 to 14 costs less than Zone 4 to 14!
Similar to Queens Surface, Bee Line would be 1.40 off peak and when paying with coing and dollar bills. So those who can ride for only 1.40 will most likely attempt to get the off peak discount like Queens and Bronx riders do with the QBx1
Hey guys, I'm not one of the well-knowns here at SubTalk, but I just wanted to let you guys know I'm now taking the first step to becoming an Assistant Conductor at Metro-North. I sent my resume in in Early August and got a letter on Saturday telling me that my qualifications match there's and I have to attend a Information/Testing session on Sept 18 or Sept 19 in N. White Plains. I'm hoping I score high enough to make it to the next phase (they make sure you know that even by passing you may not make it to the next round due to the number of applicants).
If you guys have any advise or pointers for me, it would be greatly appreciated and I'll be sure to let you know how I progress through the selection process.
Thanks,
Tony
Apart from the rats who prowl the tracks, and occassionally have the gall to invade the platform and even the mezzanine, the most heinous everyday subway peeve has to be the preacher: The loudmouthed, semi-cherent zealot who assaults the trapped commuters and attacks our religions, our lifestyles, and our right to do anything but listen to them.
I'm ticked off today because there was a particularly obnoxious one on board my (F) train today. She got on somewhere around Van Wyck Blvd. She attacked not only us non-Christians, but Catholics as well. And she had a few special words for those of us who dared to read the newspaper. She got louder and louder with every passing minute, till the ride became a nightmare. At Roosevelt Ave I gave up my seat and transfered to another car. By then another passenger had begun talking back to her, and I had just had enough.
It may seem like a simple nuisaince, but I think it's more than that. When they're really aggressive, they can be a public health hazzard. What if there were children aboard that train? When I was a kid, I was told that was going to hell because I was a Jew, and I was terrified for days. My wife had a similar experience as a child. And even a small child who doesn't understand the words will be frightenned by the volume and tone of voice.
Certainly the subway is technically a public space. But the freedoms even in the public sphere are not infinite. You're not allowed to yell "fire!" in a crowded theater (or on a public street for that matter, to take the "public vs. private" debate out of this.) I cannot believe that one really has the right to hold a whole carload of passengers captive between stations and essentially verbally assault them. There must be some kind of recourse.
Not that it would matter. Public health hazzards seem to be a way of life in this city. Just as rats flourish on the subway, so too, I suspect, will subway prechers.
---Andrew
I sympathize with you.
This particular "preacher" could be cited for creating a disturbance, or disorderly conduct etc. It would be appropriate to politely ask her to stop, and if she does not, request the crew to summon a transit buraeu officer to remove her from the subway.
I misspelled "bureau." Sorry.
If you ask them to stop, they just get even louder. I got so pissed off at one while I was a B/O that I started to tell her that I beleaved in Saten(Can't Speel it). Men that mad here even louder, it was just in time for the cops to walk onto the bus and take her off.
Robert
Agreed. So it's up to you to ask the crew to call them.
And the crew is NOT going to call anyone unless someone is being physically threatened. Why? Because no one will come to remove a "preacher" - something about "freedom of religion".
(Mind you, I don't agree with this. Nonetheless, it is the current reality)
Tell the conductor that in a certain car, people are being verbally threatened. A person is yelling at customers. One does not have to be touched to be threatened.
Wrong. They will remove him or her if a disturbance is being created.
The danger in being too cynical is that when help really is available (and it is) you don't ask for it.
That is irrelevant. In the Bill of Rights, you can WORSHIP any religion you choose, but you can not spread it around in places where it is not appropriate. Something call soliciting. A crime, no doubt.
One response to all three of you - having tried this, the NYPD Transit bureau officers will NOT remove someone from the train for preaching. Being abusive, yes, but not preaching. And, since the 'innocents' in NYC will never get involved when an officer shows up, ain't gonna be anyone to back you up about the verbally assualting preacher.
"Being abusive, yes, but not preaching. And, since the 'innocents' in NYC will never get involved when an officer shows up, ain't gonna be anyone to back you up about the verbally assualting preacher."
I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but I have been able to get offenders off the subway more than once - in NY and in Philadelphia. I've also kicked a panhandler off an LIRR train sitting at Penn by promising to bring an officer over and if necessary, leave the train myself to press charges.
So I've just shown you three instances where the system worked.
"Ummm ... control? Ummmm ... we have a 'faith based' incident here." :)
A 12-666
Hahaha ... if I had to endure that as an employee, I'd carry a book of Wiccan ceremonies to read from in addition to my book of sayings of the MTA Chairman. Nothing I enjoy more than getting woken up a couple of hours after going to bed on a Saturday morning to be greeted by a pair of droids with copies of the Watchtower for me. If "I don't HAVE to be born again, I did it right the first time" doesn't do the trick, there's nothing like Hendrix blaring "All along the Watchtower" to convince them to drive back down the half mile of hill and leave da property. :)
Hahaha ... if I had to endure that as an employee, I'd carry a book of Wiccan ceremonies to read from in addition to my book of sayings of the MTA Chairman.
Reminds me of the time I encountered a born-again Christian at my old job. He was shocked that, even though I was a Jew, I didn't believe that Jesus Christ was my savior. He was shocked that the Jews of Crown Heights didn't accept Jesus Christ as their savior. Kinda like being shocked that the Pope doesn't worship Budha! But this is how born-agains view Jews in particular, as high-priority conversions, the people who must immediately be shown the One True Path of Christ.
When I saw what was going on with him, I insisted on changing the subject. Then as a subtle measure, I began singing as many rock songs I knew with the devil in them: "Sympathy For The Devil", "Friend Of The Devil", etc.
:-) Andrew
You could have asked him, "What proof do you have that we are not already living in the light of the devil?"
(No offense intended to practicing Christians on this site)
No Offense Taken.
They do not allow such preachers on airport property.
They claim that it is private property and that they are trespassing.
Problem is on the Subway, they PAID a fare, and so are not tresspassing.
Mayhap the MTA ought to "License" the use of the subway. And in the small print that nobody ever reads it says "Passing this turnstyle, you agree to be bound by the rules and regulations described in this license."
That way they would be in violation of their license and could be carted off and dumpped before a judge somewhere.
Elias
>>> Mayhap the MTA ought to "License" the use of the subway. And in the small print that nobody ever reads it says "Passing this turnstyle, you agree to be bound by the rules and regulations described in this license." <<<
What would be written into those rules and regulations that would solve the problem? Keep in mind that this is a public corporation so the rules would have to pass constitutional muster and could not single out religious speech. I doubt that the rules could be more restrictive than the present laws against loitering, and disturbing the peace.
Tom
No offense taken from your post.
However, I feel the need to bring up a few important points. First, some of the members here have been VERY DISRESPECTFUL of my beliefs and I don't think it's appropriate. It is one thing to have someone that preaches the gospel in a disrespectful manner. Many of the subway preachers go about preaching in a manner that I myself don't agree with as a Christian. Does that mean we ban all preaching on subways? If we ban all prreaching on subways, you would also have to tear out all advertisements, as I do not believe that certain ads should be on a subway train "preaching" to everyone either. Why should eight year olds be subject to advertisements for alcohol that looks like Kool Aid (Captain Morgan's)? I'm also not interested in a gyn exam and don't care to read about that either. I have to deal with "preaching" every day and whether human or static, the annoyance is similar.
Some have used the fact that people go about "conversion" in the wrong manner to attack evangelicals in general. Few of the attackers know more than the names of the different evangelical branches and would be wise to lay off non-constructive criticism of one's beliefs. Many evangelicals DO make the mistake of attacking others and those folks happen to be the LEAST effective at getting people to understand their point of view. Every religion has a "mainstream" belief and deviations from it and a "branch" should not be used to judge the tree. As someone whose belief is "categorized" as evangelical, I happen to have lots of non-Christian friends and while we make it clear what we believe, we share a mutual respect for the other's beliefs and if this conversation is to be CONSTRUCTIVE, then we need to do the same here.
We must remember that united we stand and divided we fall. Banning preachers from the subway because a significant portion of them don't do it correctly is not the correct way to address the situation. There are lots of bad drivers, but we should not ban private cars from the roads because of that. You must also realize that some people on the train may NEED the assistance being offered. The trains are the next to last stop for many troubled people and sometimes, a message may come in handy for them. As much as I dislike the militant arm of Islam here in the United States, they have cleaned up and saved THOUSANDS of people from crime on the streets and poverty and I'd rather deal with their rhetoric than the alternative. Of course, a ban would deprive these people of that opportunity. If preaching is EVER banned on NYC subways, we would have to throw out ALL advertising except the MTA's (how much would that cost?). To make sure that no one is disturbed by any one else's beliefs, we could also ban the use of walkmans and CD players because the headphones rarely cover all of the emitted sound and that emitted sound could disturb or offend someone.
Therefore, a ban on preaching is a slippery slope we wish not to take.
You make some good points, but one thing that should be noted is the fact that many if not most subway preachers (and those plying their trade elsewhere too) aren't there primarily to get converts. Sure, getting some converts would be nice, but what the preachers really are doing is trying to reinforce their own beliefs.
Good insight.
...many if not most subway preachers (and those plying their trade elsewhere too) aren't there primarily to get converts. Sure, getting some converts would be nice, but what the preachers really are doing is trying to reinforce their own beliefs.
A fascinating point, and I suspect a true one. It's an old truism that if you're really secure in your beliefs or in your morality, you don't go arround waving it in other peoples faces. Those who seek to denounce others of different beliefs are probably not secure in their own.
--Andrew
I will agree with you, as much as I dislike public preachers, I'd rather live in a society where they are allowed rather than one where they are banned.
The ones that really piss me off are the Jews for Jesus. I don't have a problem with Jews converting to Christianity if they feel that it serves them better, but once that's done, they're no longer Jews!
Someone should start a Christians for Allah movement, or even better:
Atheists for God!
Actually they had that in the Soviet Union.
Respectful preachers in public places can hand out leaflets quietly. I'm sure NO ONE would object to that. It's the "fire and brimstone in public" types that irritate and embarass the rest of us who are "believers" ... reminds me of the old Cheech and Chong schtick - "I used to be all messed up on drugs and then I found the Lord. Now I'm all messed up on the Lord."
Respect is a two way street, and the demonstration of respect for your fellow humans demonstrates respect for the Lord if you follow my point ... When Jesus preached, the only people HE irritated was the politicians and religious elders.
Thankyou my friend for an affirmation of faith. CI Peter
And thank you for not being a politician. :)
I don't think preaching in the subway can be equated with advertising, after all, the advertisers pay the MTA. As far as I know preachers don't.
Peace,
ANDEE
And passengers who aren't interested in the advertising can simply not look at it. Passengers who aren't interested in the preaching have few options unless the preachers are kind enough to hand out earplugs.
That's when you wish you were on a train of R-10s. Not too many people could shout above their thundering roar.
Heh. "Jews for Jesus" was one of my own personal favorites when I lived in New Paltz. Living upstate, you let the beard grow and I must admit I looked a bit Lubavitcher (still do) and was constantly being assaulted by these guys who insisted that the Moschiach had already saved me. They'd ask others, "are you Jewish?", they'd make a BEELINE for me. I started wearing a name tag on the street ("HELLO My name is KEVIN") to ward them off. STILL didn't work.
Kevin, I thought your name was Kirk.... Hi Kevin!
Moo! Selkirk is nearby, it's a town with a big railyard. Used to live there, but am much better now. :)
Another 'Slayer' fan? Used to tool about in my company provided car blaring CDs to ward off the yellow cabbies. Moslems were scared of me...steered their cabs out of my range. 'Angel of death....monarch of the kingdom of death....infamous....butcher......' I've grown up a bit at my older age.
The sorry point is that many prosthelestizers have a serious commitment of faith that is ignored by the masses. Of course, I ain't buying a 'Hari Krishna' book of pictures of purple elephant gods with eight arms. Gotta work with 'these people' everday...you know your TA when you got to 7-11 and recognise the 'prayer card' on the cash register! Thankyouverrrrymuch.
Carry a picture of - um - the Jersey Devil!
But Wicca could probably work too. Even though it is a form of Paganism, there is nothing evil about it, though according to some unenlightened people (i.e. certain subway preachers, Christian fanatics, and/or Jehovah's Witnesses), it is satan worship. Wicca is essentially worship of nature. I have a couple of friends who practice it, and I find it quite interesting. The Wiccan rituals are really cool, and I love burning incense!
Pretty peculiar when you look at how virtually all the Christian holy days fall on or about the ancient pagan/Celtic holy days.
For example, take Halloween (the eve of All Saints Day) - the same day as Samhein (SAH-win], which is a harvest-fest of sorts.
Then Christmas (25 Dec) falls 4 days after the winter solstace (21 Dec).
Don't forget Easter. The name itself is taken from the Anglo-Saxon godess of the spring, whose festival fell at roughly the same time of year.
That's just in English. In Spanish, the same word, pascua, is used for both Easter and Passover.
Mark
And in Hebrew, the word for Passover is Pesach.
In Spanish and in other languages the name was transliterated, for English, it was translated.
Then Christmas (25 Dec) falls 4 days after the winter solstace (21 Dec).
Actually, Christmas *does* fall on the winter solstace (sol invictus... the victory of the sun... son)
Just was that due to the earth's wobble they got the day wrong, and the calendar was corrected *after* sometime Christmas was *set* on the 25th.
Indeed, the Soviet substitute for Santa Clause (Father Winter or somesuch) was a harkening back to a much older feast, one that the Christians had coopted in the first place.
Yes, most Christian rituals are a supplanting of the pagan in an attempt at conversion, and of making conversion easier. This of course does not make it wrong, or the older feasts superior. All religions, even the Jews have done this at one time or another.
It is all very interesting.
Elias
Or carry a picture of a Duke Blue Devil.:)
I'll make a note not to take any D train from 59th St. at 12:30.
Even though it is a form of Paganism, there is nothing evil about it, though according to some unenlightened people (i.e. certain subway preachers, Christian fanatics, and/or Jehovah's Witnesses), it is satan worship.
Christian fanatics believe that all non-Christians are being tricked by the devil. The really nutty ones believe Christians not in their sect are being tricked by the devil. Those of us who don't follow the One True Path are condemned to hell.
Muslim fundementalists believe all "Non-believers", ie non-Muslims, are condemned to hell, though variantly believe that "People of The Book", Jews and Christians, at least get a measure of mitigation.
The Jewish faith is not without its zeolots. I know that as well as anything. But one thing that keeps my religion relatively moderate is that we don't necessarily believe non-followers are going to hell. The concept of hell itself is not big at all in Judaism, and in some circles it is not believed in at all. At any rate, the focus is on this life rather than the next. And it is not permitted to seek to convert others. A convert must do so on his or her own accord.
None of this, however, prevents the ultra-Orthodox from trying to hook in the less obvervant Jews into whatever sect of Orthodoxy they practice. Especially at this time of year, the Lubovitchers are out in full force, asking people all over the city "are you Jewish" then making the victim...er well, let's leave that at victim perform a seasonal comandment then trying to get them into the movement. This is another nuisaince a NYC Jew faces, though I rarely see them in the subway.
---Andrew
A well-written post. A few of of my fellow Jews can be as much megalomaniacs as anybody else ("we are chosen, you are not") and make everybody suffer for it.
If I knew for a fact that it would prevent the needless loss of life, I'd wish for so-called "holy sites" to be dynamited and replaced with a park, and a Wal-Mart. But I now that won't work - the fanatics can always find something else...
None of this, however, prevents the ultra-Orthodox from trying to hook in the less obvervant Jews into whatever sect of Orthodoxy they practice. Especially at this time of year, the Lubovitchers are out in full force, asking people all over the city "are you Jewish" then making the victim...er well, let's leave that at victim perform a seasonal comandment then trying to get them into the movement. This is another nuisaince a NYC Jew faces, though I rarely see them in the subway.
Every now and then I see the Jews for Jesus handing out their pamphlets in the subway. Penn Station IRT seems to attract them, as does Union Square. They are almost always within the paid area, but usually I can tell they're around even before I get to the turnstiles thanks to the discarded pamphlets littering the ground (the pamphlets are quite distinctive as they're usually brightly colored and have simple, almost childish graphics and typefaces).
I actually suspect that many of the Jews for Jesus aren't actually Jewish.
That's possible. Some are, some aren't. In the end, it's no one's business to tell anyone else "You are or you aren't ____" fill in the religion. I do find them obnoxious, though.
Here's an article about Jews For Jesus from the Anti Defamation Leaugue. It cannot truly be called a Jewsih organization, since its entire reason for existence is to sneakily convert Jews to Christianity.
--Andrew
OK. That may be so. However, I repeat my previous assertion: It is nobody's place (in the US, at least) to tell anybody else they are or are not ___(whatever). ADL's post does reveal the misleading advertising used by Jews for Jesus.
But our Constitution protects even a Jew who has decided he or she believes in Jesus. He/she can even say so to you, though you are not obliged to believe it.
I actually suspect that many of the Jews for Jesus aren't actually Jewish.
None of them are Jewish. Maybe some of them also were never Jews and others were at one point, but Jews for Jesus is a Christian organization consisting of people calling themselves Jews.
The whole matter of who's Jewish and who isn't is quite a difficult one. Lots of Jews have varying practices, cultures and beliefs.
The easiest way of referring to Jews is as a people. That means that Jews for Jesus are really Jews (EWWW!!!).
We Catholics used to say that unless you were Catholic, you wouldn't go to heaven. In fact, it used to be if you were non-Catholic and married a Catholic, you'd have to convert. They backed off from all that after Vatican II. My sister married a Lutheran and he didn't have to convert. If and when he does, it will be his decision. (Their kids were both baptized as Catholics.) I personally don't buy the notion that you can't get to heaven if you're not Catholic.
No no no they are all wrong.
You only go to heaven if you are a RAILFAN. If you're not a railfan, you will have to convert, no matter what you religion.
Isn't that the truth.
Now you have to post that over in the Busfan area.
Hey, I was trying to find common ground for everynoe!
You only go to heaven if you are a RAILFAN. If you're not a railfan, you will have to convert, no matter what you religion.
If you are a railfan, but have led an evil life, you won't make it to Heaven ... you end up in a Hell where every car is an R-68.
When my parents got married in 1932, my father was Catholic, but my mother was not. They were married in the Rectory of St. Edwards Church on Poplar Grove Street.
I remember being taught the rule that as a Catholic you could not enter a Protestant church. Like many rules of the time, there was an exception: if you happened to go into a Anglican or High Episcopol church and did not realize it, it was "O.K."
Since my mother was not orginally Catholic (she did convert later) I was not exposed to the rabid anti-Protestant that infects some Irish-Americans.
Good thing, since I went to public schools and soon realized that it didn't really matter where you went to church, as long as you were a good person. Really helps when you go out into the world.
What I can't stand is the type (all faiths, all beliefs) that force their particular view down your throat. You don't spread a religion that way. It just turns everybody off.
Bill Cosby said it best in 1962: "The New York Subway is a wonderful thing that gets where you need to go really fast. And, they go out of their way to entertain you - they put an nut in every car."
Dan, you made my day bright!!! I'm tired and on my way back to the yard for special duty on the #5 R142s.
'If you happened to go into an Anglican or High Episcopal Church and did not realise it, it was O.K.'
Means a lot to me...serve the 8AM Communion every Sunday. Faith kept me going in a miserable job. Faith kept me going through many medical exams. Faith got me this job......I MAKE TREAINS GO. CI Peter
There were a lot of rules that were just plain silly.
At one time, Catholics were forbidden to read the King James Bible. Don't know if that still holds true today. The translation is different, plus it was (and still is) considered incomplete.
It is not true (anymore). You may read any version of the Bible you wish.
The "Protestant" Bibles do not have all of the books that a Catholic Bible has. Some of the Old Testament books, that we call the Apocrapha, are not in the Septuigent version of the Hebrew scriptures, and were therefore left out of the Protestent translations which did go back to the original sources, such as they had acceess to 500 years ago. Turns out that some of the older scrolls such as found at Qumran do have these books in them, so go figure.
Your faith is one thing, scholarship and study in that faith is quite another, and HONEST scholarship demands examination of all points of view, not just those as support your position.
Elias
Amen! First thing I got to read at Graymoor was the Qu'ran and other far eastern philosophies. The similarities were stunning. What is it about so many religions having common roots of conduct and yet so many hatreds towards one another? I'm confused. Whoops. The ONE thing I can be certain of is when confusion enters the scene, I know who's knocking on the door. I'll leave it there, this just passed the yard limits. :)
Some of the Old Testament books, that we call the Apocrapha, are not in the Septuigent version of the Hebrew scriptures
I know what you mean, but the Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Hebrew (and in places Aramaic) which actually included precisely those books. It was the Hebrew text decided on by the Synod of Jamnia (yes, a PHARASAIC synod) in AD 90 which excludes those books and parts of books. As it was a Pharasaic Synod, the Church had no reason to follow it and maintained the orthodox text of the Old Testament until that pesky Martin Luther noticed that the Hebrew wasn't in existence for most of it (it did not cross his mind that the Pharisees may have destroyed it or that no-one would write Greek in such a Semitic style unless he were translating from a Semitic language).
Oops, for "most of it" read "a sizable part of it".
I'm pretty sure Vatican II did away with that rule, among other things. In addition to the seven books included in the Catholic Bible, there are two additional chapters in the book of Daniel and six lettered chapters interspersed in Esther, IIRC.
>>> I was not exposed to the rabid anti-Protestant that infects some Irish-Americans. <<<
I was raised with Irish-Americans in New York, I have never met any Irish-Americans that were antagonistic to Protestants (but sadly the same cannot be said about their attitudes toward Jews in the ‘40s). Some thought them misguided and doomed to be denied entry to heaven, and others reacted to the prejudice displayed against Catholics by a segment of Protestant society. Do not confuse the attitudes toward a political group in Northen Ireland labeled with the name "Protestants" with religious prejudice.
Tom
I grew up in RIVERDALE and attended Saint Gabriel's (3303 Netherland Avenue) as a kid. As the high rises went up and the neighborhood turned more Jewish, I was subjected to the nuns ranting "Jews eat babies" and some of the more ridiculous stuff prevalent in the Arab world today from NUNS!!! Alas, living on Johnson and 238th, I had more Jewish pals than Catholic and none of it made any sense to me at all. Sadly though, because of the nonsense that some of the OTHER kids believed in, I was spit upon and harassed by jewish kids that didn't know *MY* disbelief of the nonsense. Those who were my friends however defended me. Antisemitism (and with BLACK Catholic kids in my school getting nonsense as well) RACISM at the hands of some folks who had moved up there from the SOUTH just completely floored me with their illogic. After all, we were ALL kids, the SAME age and we all played together just fine. UNTIL the grownups screwed up our little minds.
Never COULD figure that out, I s'pose that's why I refused to GROW UP. After all, kids didn't care who they played with, as long as they're FUN to play with. Whatever became of us kids?
As to the protestant-catholic thing over in Northern Ireland (My name is Kevin McAleavey and my ANCESTORS CAME from Belfast) while we are SOLD on it being a "religious war" it always was and always will be bickering over ECONOMICS and DISCRIMINATION ... that was the reason why I was so passionate over E-Dog's "troubles" here ... it's not often RACISM, it's CLASS WAR ... and in my own family roots, that was the lesson learned. Racism is a smokescreen for CLASS WAR and economics. The POOR are the ones that gets screwed - both sides of Belfast are the SAME skin color and yet ...
Why is it that the victims of "divide and conquer" always fall for the setup? Find the queen ... find the queen ... where's the queen? I'm sorry, the queen's here. YOU LOSE. :)
Interesting. So in NI, which group is richer and which group is poorer?
I think there is usually more to it than economics, although economics is what drives people to kill each other. If it were purely the poor versus the rich, then the poor would always win, because they have more manpower and they are usually able to terrorize the rich into moving away. Why do you think these rich suburbanites think the inner city is unsafe?
The religion/race etc are just arbitrary ways for groups to identify with each other. A bit like Subfans and Railfans, or Railfans and Busfans. Busfans and Railfans will only start killing each other if there was some compelling reason why they should, e.g. Busfans are on the whole not paid as well as Railfans. But, it's not just the poor-versus the rich, because if every Railfan were always richer than every Busfan, then Railfans would be chased out of town because there would be so many more Busfans than Railfans, and Railfans would not be able to go anywhere without getting beaten up by a group of Busfans.
AEM7
But if you're rich you can spread a little of your wealth to a bunch of fence-sitting Busfans who then use their baseball bats to club other Busfans who are not employed by you.
Throw in some tribal loyalty, and compare your results to Saddam Hussein's.
Wow ... well ... I'm not even going to touch that one. Apparently, the laissez fairy has already picked an answer here, no point in even raising an argument. I'll just leave it at the classics of history, that the poor have ALWAYS been played against one another to fight over the table scraps that have been removed from the table from others who are "non-combatants."
Ramining entrails of racism/classism persist once the impetus has been removed. Last thing I want to do though is retrace a multiply-deleted losing battle of way off topic. Belfast and the IRA though is something that never needed to be, served everyone POORLY and only prolonged the class warfare. My only point was to point out the parallels between that and racism as demonstrated here as parallels. It's just TOO far off topic to go into any further here though and thus I must beg off continuing it.
take Halloween (the eve of All Saints Day)
The name Halloween is a compressed form of All Hallows Eve, with November 1 being All Hallows Day.
Hallow is the same as Saint. The words holy and hallowed (as in hallowed ground) are related to it.
Hey Selkirk, one way to get rid of those droids was told to me by a friend who was interrupted early one Saturday morning by another pair of the aforementioned droids. So he and his girlfriend went and answered the door in their birthday suits and informed the droids that the time was a most inconvenient one and that they were NOT interested in getting their souls saved at that moment. They were never bothered again.
Heh. I've had similar. There's something about the Kingdom Halls around the Poughkeepsie area, that wouldn't phase them a bit. You're STILL going to hell unless you smile and take your pamphlets. Up where I am now, they're nowhere near as obsessed. :)
Sounds like the only option is to physically threaten the preacher!
How about questioning their beliefs?
If you're into it, go at him or her, I would not recommend being as loud and obnoxious, since two wrongs do not make a right, but perhaps get near him or her, and start a conversation. Hopefully he or she will shut up and be satisfied with you as prey. Then you need a plan, work out a kind of skit, you need to draw the person in, make 'em think you are a possible convert, and then you need a trap to spring, claim to be an atheist or something and procede to undermine their beliefs, or claim to be gay and tell them that you find them attractive (of course this is gender determined), whatever you chose, but sometimes they do backfire. It can be a hell of a lot of fun, like chess, but, hopefully, you are the only one who knows where the pieces are moving. I've had a hell of a lot of fun shrugging off nutsos in philly with this method.
Good luck
Yeah, you can have fun with 'em...
Well, either that, or just lamp him/her one. Some of these people need to be taught a lesson in real life. You know, civil liberities and all that is fine, but there's the real life too. I personally would not go down to Roxbury and proclaim that urban ghetto degeneration is the source of the society's problems, even if it were true.
(There was some Urban Planning research which suggested, in the 70's, that large clusters of poor people is the root of society's problems, because the people who live there do not have a "community role model".)
There are a few people who, if they were pissed off enough, might "accidentally" bump into this lady and knock the wind out of her, hoping the other passengers would look the other way.
I am not condoning that in any way. Also, you never know when a plainclothes cop, like the ones chasing pickpockets, is aboard.
Of course, you hope he/she would intervene...
heh. I don't need to go through again here my general distrust of the law enforcement. It's true that there are a lot of great cops out there who respect their job and everything. I originally thought that there may be a theoretical reason why cops would have double standards, then I saw it in practice. I was with the ex-wife of an city police chief in a small town in Ohio when we got pulled over on I-81 doing some 95mph. Needless to say, we got away scout free.
It's the same idea as the "courtsey" ride on public transportation.
I was with the ex-wife of an city police chief in a small town in Ohio when we got pulled over on I-81 doing some 95mph.
Quite a feat to pull that off, since I-81 doesn't go through Ohio, I-81 starts on I-40 near Knoxville, TN and then runs through Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and New York, ending at the Thousand Islands Bridge over the St. Lawrence River to Canada.
You must be thinking of I-71, which runs from Cleveland at I-90, and runs through Ohio and Kentucky and ends on I-64 in Louisville.
Maybe he was pulled over because he created the new route with his driving. (only kidding - no offense intended)
You know the old story: "I didn't know that was an expressway!" "It is now."
:0)
I was with the ex-wife of an city police chief in a small town in Ohio when we got pulled over on I-81 doing some 95mph. Needless to say, we got away scout free.
On the other hand, if it had been that city police chief who'd pulled you over in Ohio, your address for the next several years might well be 878 Coitsville-Hubbard Road, Youngstown, Ohio 44505.
I was not driving. Nor do I have a licence.
AEM7
People in the United States don't have licences.
Try have one on a Bus. I had them on my buses many times. I called command to tell them that it is unsalf for me to drive becouse they were to load for me to hear anything ease on the bus or road. I had the cops remove one or two the other just got off my bus when I told them that the cops were on there way to remove them for unsalf conduct on the bus. I had one on the B16 going right though I (think it's Midwood) 13th and 14th ave. between 60st and 36st. That place is all Jewis. Man these peaple got pissed and him. After the secound time I would just pass him up if he was at a stop buy him self.
Robert
I (think it's Midwood) 13th and 14th ave.
No. It's Borough Park.
Right. Brorough Park. I only drove though it for about a year and 3 mouths.
Robert
What I cannot understand is that you are not allowed to play a boombox on the subway, but these assholes are more offensive than any music from a boombox could ever be. They should be fined just as someone playing a boombox would be.
There is one that frequents the N/B D train every day around 12:30PM. But this bitch is really sneaky. She gets on at 34th and stays real quiet until leaving 59th. After 59th she starts, when everyone is trapped. I endured her once, never again, whenever I see her I immediately move to the next car. FYI, she always rides the 1st car.
Peace,
ANDEE
If she's being disruptive and verbally attacking individual riders, report her to the conductor. He/she can call for police assistance. Contrary to popular belief, you have no legal right to preach religion in public spaces.
There's also an annoying preacher on the J who also doubles as a homeless advocate. He'd be more tolerable if he didn't spend 10-20 minutes in a single car trying to personally strike a conversation with everyone in it.
Isn't this part of Bill Cosby's old "A Nut in Every Car" routine?
Mark
No offense to anyone hear. But i really hate those damn preachers in the subway. There's this particular one in broadway junction. Everytime i walk by there she tells everyone that their going to hell etc. Which really piss me off. Sometimes i feel like going and slapping her ( I would never do that though). There so annoying. They offend people that are catholic. They also get you on the train. They love the 75 ft cars since you can't leave till the next stop and they like to wait for long express runs such as the E/F 71st conniental and 74st roosevelt and 59 st and 125 st on the A/D. I really hate them and i want to tell them off thats my honest feeling. (sorry if i sound immature or offensive).
my regards,
Adam
>>>...and 59 st and 125 st on the A/D.<<<
See my earlier post regarding this.
RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS
Peace,
ANDEE
Just say there is no God and walk away. I know of a few of them at B'way Junction. Im glad I carry my walkman with sounds from the Roxy.
Since I've never heard one of these subway preachers myself, I have a question. Do they ever seem to be mentally ill, I mean clinically?
Mark
Sometimes, yes. The one today was going off in all directions, basically a tirade against one and all. But often they are as lucid as anyone trying to prosyletise.
---Andrew
Unless they get loud and seemingly on the verge of becoming physically violent, I usually ignore them and stay in the car I'm in. Maybe their volume is annoying and maybe one's religion is a private thing that should not be subjected to another's rant, but you know what? At least these preachers aren't raping or murdering anyone. If you listen to their messages, they seem to be religious people whose biggest flaw is, unfortunately, just being a bit unhinged.
I have a simple solution. I like to call it ignore them. It goes like this: you ignore them. Newspapers, books, cd/tape players: they're all good ways of achieving the solution.
>>> I like to call it ignore them. <<<
Sometimes that is easier said than done.
Peace,
ANDEE
I sympathize with you wholeheartedly, and this is one reason (I know I'm getting a little off topic here) I hate the R-46 with a passion. On an R-32, you can move to the next car and get away from that shit. In an "F" train, you're TRAPPED. No subway preacher has the right to verbally bash anyone because of their beliefs.
By law, if you ask them to shut up once and then don't, then you should be allowed to kill them. Those loud mouth subway preachers are insane. Death is to good for them. I hate trying to read my paper and hearing about God. I'm Catholic, and I hear God's words every Sunday.
Some have far more faith than we...we do and work and serve...and we truly do our best. Sunday is not the only day you should hear and receive the Lords words...one accident with the 'Big Bug' in the yard...1500 Kilowatts of direct current...and all your hopes and dreams and plans meet Armageddon. My internet handle 'OnTheJuice' wasn't picked out for nothing. You make your best, you do your best, you keep your faith and keep on going. CI Peter
Well said.
I'm Catholic, and I hear God's words every Sunday.
I'm Catholic too, and I go to church four times a day.
Oh wait, that's right! I live in a church.
We got a ruel for weekday homilies: 5 minutes tops.
If you can't say it in five minutes, more minutes is not going to help you.
Elias
The priest who founded our parish was nicknamed "Fast Freddie" for being able to celebrate a Latin Mass, with homily, in 20 minutes! (And you thought the R-10s were fast.) He was up-tempo, all right. At Communion, he'd be a bit out of sync with distribution and saying, "The body of Christ". Sometimes he'd say it twice before you received the host. Before he died, he met with the archbishop about starting a new parish near Denver International Airport.
Try this website for direction(s):
mtainfo.com
This discussion has been very interesting, if off-topic at times. Here's my attempt to make it somewhat on-topic: I'm a practicing Mennonite, and part of what I believe is that I'm responsible for how my actions affect other people. Transportation is one area in which I have to ask how my choices affect my fellow human beings for better or for worse. Knowing that pollution I produce may give someone else cancer, or cause someone else's coastline to flood, I feel responsible to use public transportation whenever possible. I know this isn't always possible, since I'm on SEPTA's turf, but when I do use transit, for me it's a moral decision, which is motivated in part by faith. I'm just curious if anyone else feels this way.
It's also fun to have a hobby I can feel so good about! :)
Mark
I don't think that belief is restricted to members of your religion alone.
It occurred to me today that there are two fundamentally different ways of dealing with public property (and I include, e.g., air in that category). One approach is that is that public property is available for each individual to do whatever he wants with it -- "It's mine as much as everybody else's." The other approach is that each individual has the duty, as much as possible, to maintain and preserve public property for the rest of the public -- "It's everybody else's as much as mine." You sound like you take the latter approach.
I support that approach too. I do feel, corny as it sounds, that I'm helping my country by conserving energy (patriotism?), investing in public infrastructure (paying my fare to ride and advocating or expanding the network), and fighting air pollution (environmentalism) when I use mass transit.
I'm also keeping myself from becoming overweight. Using mass transit usually means you have to do some walking every day.
Just heard something in class today:
Riding mass transit in fact does very little for the environment. Mass transit has something like a 3% mode share in urban (SMSA) trips, compared to some 84% of auto trips (1990 census). Point is, if you want to reduce energy consumption, making energy-efficient cars is much more critical than trying to grow the mass transit market share. Although, obviously from a personal perspective, every little counts.
Mass transit is really counter-intuitive. Paying fare on marginal lines may actually hurt the system more than they help it. For instance, if you insist on riding mass transit in an area where the line is carrying so little passengers that it ought to be discontinued, you are actually doing the country a disservice by allowing the nation to waste resources on something which is clearly not cost effective. The problem is, it is hard to judge what lines are marginal and what lines is really effective.
People should not assume public transit is automatically good. It isn't. You can do your country a lot more service (from an efficiency point of view) if you lobbied an organization that proposes congestion charges for cars, instead of lobbying for transit subsidy or transit usage.
AEM7
It depends on your point of view. Don't take what you hear in class out of context.
"Riding mass transit in fact does very little for the environment. Mass transit has something like a 3% mode share in urban (SMSA) trips, compared to some 84% of auto trips (1990 census)."
But within the New York metropolitan region, 90% of all people entering and leaving Manhattan use mass transit. More mass transit trips occur within areas of the boroughs than car trips. Mass transit allows the region to be the most energy-efficient in the country and one of the most energy efficient in the world, and the figures you quote do not apply. The benefit in New York, however, may not not directly comparable with what happens in, say, Peoria.
"Point is, if you want to reduce energy consumption, making energy-efficient cars is much more critical than trying to grow the mass transit market share."
Not necessarily true. In markets where mass transit is effective, growing mass transit is the preferred option. Again, one scale does not fit all.
And in fact, anywhere you can fill up a bus with at least 20 or 30 people, you are gaining in energy-efficiency, regardless of where you are.
"Paying fare on marginal lines may actually hurt the system more than they help it. For instance, if you insist on riding mass transit in an area where the line is carrying so little passengers that it ought to be discontinued, you are actually doing the country a disservice by allowing the nation to waste resources on something which is clearly not cost effective."
But the auto drivers may not be compensating the rest of us for the pollution they create and are being subdsidized through road building - to cite just one example of the holes in applying your theory to actual world conditions. Within each market, recognition of this could be utilized to create more accurate pricing. This may or may not lead more people to use mass transit, depending on whether it became less expensive than driving a car.
Now, there will be areas in the country where mass transit does not work well, clearly. But taking the overall picture and then trying to apply the lesson to individual markets leads to false conclusions, as I have shown.
"Although, obviously from a personal perspective, every little counts. "
Certainly. :0)
Not necessarily true. In markets where mass transit is effective, growing mass transit is the preferred option.
But, these cars are still needed for the same people going somewhere other than downtown New York. The point being that if you chose the "most appropriate" mode for travelling where you want to go, that's not necessarily doing the country a disservice. It might make sense to grow mass transit going downtown (in Boston at least, the CBD transit travel-to-work mode share is only 50%, by the way). But it makes no sense to try to grow a bus line that runs every 1/2 hour from Winchester into the northern Suburbs of Boston. In fact such line should be discontinued, and road tolls adjusted to reflect the true cost of living in Winchester, MA.
You will get no argument from me that the auto-highway combination ought to be priced more rationally than it is today. But as many mass transit advocates fail to realize, the car is vastly overpriced in many parts of the United States. If we removed the gas tax and changed that to a capital amortization plus congestion charge, the price per mile in driving around in rural farmland will be substantially less than they are now. On a per-ton-mile basis, the rural collectors pay for themselves many times over carrying grain. Any auto traffic for farmers is truly marginal.
AEM7
"But, these cars are still needed for the same people going somewhere other than downtown New York. The point being that if you chose the "most appropriate" mode for travelling where you want to go, that's not necessarily doing the country a disservice."
OK. That's reasonable.
"But it makes no sense to try to grow a bus line that runs every 1/2 hour from Winchester into the northern Suburbs of Boston."
It does if you can fill it with enough passengers to establish your improved fuel economy.
"In fact such line should be discontinued, and road tolls adjusted to reflect the true cost of living in Winchester, MA."
If we use that option, we must then overcome local politics, which will tend to try to make the car less expensive (because a driver living there doesn't mind ripping off other people to reduce his own expense).
" But as many mass transit advocates fail to realize, the car is vastly overpriced in many parts of the United States. If we removed the gas tax and changed that to a capital amortization plus congestion charge, the price per mile in driving around in rural farmland will be substantially less than they are now."
Not necessarily. The "congestion" charge may need to be quite high to account for increasing damage to cropland and resource usage. You may find the price of the auto drops only marginally.
The point being that if you chose the "most appropriate" mode for travelling where you want to go, that's not necessarily doing the country a disservice. It might make sense to grow mass transit going downtown (in Boston at least, the CBD transit travel-to-work mode share is only 50%, by the way). But it makes no sense to try to grow a bus line that runs every 1/2 hour from Winchester into the northern Suburbs of Boston. In fact such line should be discontinued, and road tolls adjusted to reflect the true cost of living in Winchester, MA.
Your points are generally correct. There is, however, a common belief, if not a true consensus, that transit provides a vital social service in some areas and therefore should be supported even if not cost-effective. That does not mean that low-density areas should have expensive and costly transit systems for the benefit of the 2% of the population that does not/cannot drive. But there may be justification for maintaining basic, "lifeline" transit systems in such areas.
(The auto is overpriced..If we removed the gas tax and changed that to a capital amortization plus congestion charge, the price per mile in driving around in rural farmland will be substantially less than they are now. On a per-ton-mile basis, the rural collectors pay for themselves many times over carrying grain. Any auto traffic for farmers is truly marginal. )
No way. It is true that the biggest (and most unknown) cost of the automobile is the land it occupies, and that in rural areas that land is worth less -- hence the congesion charge component would be lower.
On the other hand, in low density areas the cost of construction per person served is great. My block, like most NYC blocks, has a 60 foot wide right of way shared by about 150 households, with 16 for every 100 feet of frontage (both sides) and more at the corners. My father in law, up in the Catkills, has one family per 100 feet of frontage.
The cost of maintenance per person served is also higher in low density areas, because some wear and tear is caused by weathering and not by traffic.
There are two points worth making about the cost of the automobile. Most of the PRIVATE cost is fixed -- purchase and insurance -- while most of the SOCIAL cost is variable, depending on where and when you drive. Unless you have severe congestion pricing, once someone has already purchased an auto (or a second auto) it is always in their interest to use it, regardless of the social costs. Manhattan -- thanks to huge traffic delays and the high cost of parking -- may be the one exception, but only because it has massively high density and is on an island.
If you want high transit use (and pedestrian trips) overall, therefore, you have to convince people not to buy the car. Since there are trips for which auto is by far the best mode, however, readily available, low cost rental cars are pro-transit and a help in reducing social costs. Perhaps we shouldn't be taxing the hell out of the car rental business.
That's a very interesting post. Indeed, offer people rental cars to use when mass transit doesn't serve the purpose.
One idea - offer tax breaks for rental car agencies who make cars available at the periphery of the transit system - that is, if you're using your car, it's going to be outside the transit network's reach, so use transit to reach the rental car, and then use the rental car to complete your trip. When returning, the rental car return is on the outskirts, and mass transit brings you back to your home.
(One idea - offer tax breaks for rental car agencies who make cars available at the periphery of the transit system - that is, if
you're using your car, it's going to be outside the transit network's reach, so use transit to reach the rental car, and then use the
rental car to complete your trip. When returning, the rental car return is on the outskirts, and mass transit brings you back to
your home.)
I don't know that we need more tax breaks. But the MTA could build parking lots over the transit yards, reserving the spaces exclusively for rental car companies and those who park 'n ride. They could even add a special station in the yard in cases where trains routinely go there at the end of a run. So if you live in Manhattan, rather than garaging your car there, you'd leave it in a lot or garage over the Concourse or Jerome Ave yard, and take the subway up to get it when leaving town. Or you'd skip the car altogether, and rent it when going upstate. Either way, you'd be less likely to drive to a New Jersey supermarket if the car wasn't downstairs waiting for you.
So if you live in Manhattan, rather than garaging your car there, you'd leave it in a lot or garage over the Concourse or Jerome Ave yard, and take the subway up to get it when leaving town. Or you'd skip the car altogether, and rent it when going upstate. Either way, you'd be less likely to drive to a New Jersey supermarket if the car wasn't downstairs waiting for you.
Doesn't really work. Firstly, leaving car in a yard somewhere is clearly not secure. Secondly, the transit takes too long to get to the car, with most rides out to terminals taking some one hour or more from the city center. Thirdly, the best thing about the car is the "last mile", in that it takes you to the front door and you don't have to walk with a heavy chest of drawers that you just purchased at the Home Depot from the transit stop.
There is already car-sharing schemes in Boston called the zipcar that operates out of transit properties. Their rates are $6 per hour and $1 per mile. I don't know how close this is to the true costs of using the car, but based on various evaluations I have done, it's almost never worth it. Say I want to take a day trip to Providence, the combined Subway/Amtrak trip cost is close to $60, while the zipcar would cost $120 or more. Clearly, the zipcar's cost equation assumes city driving. If the transportation requirement was that there is a piece of freight in Providence that requires pick-up, it's clearly cheaper to send it UPS.
AEM7
"Doesn't really work. Firstly, leaving car in a yard somewhere is clearly not secure."
Not true. There are many well-run lots where you can confidently leave your car.
" Secondly, the transit takes too long to get to the car, with most rides out to terminals taking some one hour or more from the city center."
That must be why both SEPTA and LIRR parking lots are well used with often very few spaces left.
You really should do more homework when you post, dude. And I don't mean from the ivory tower. Come down to Philly and New York and actually look at what is going on here.
Secondly, the transit takes too long to get to the car, with most rides out to terminals taking some one hour or more from the city center.
That must be why both SEPTA and LIRR parking lots are well used with often very few spaces left.
Here, you take my point out of context. There is no need for me to further rebuff your point.
AEM7
The idea is that you park your car within a reasonable commute to your place of work. Many drive from western New Jersey and Pennsylvania go to lots well within half hour rapid transit commute because the areas in which they live are NOT serviced by busses or the expense based against their salary is phenomally excessive.
Right. At least CI Peter got my point. The economics and dynamics of the commute-to-work market is totally different to what someone was proposing earlier, that is, permanently leave your car at say Concourse Yd and only use the subway to get to it. The origin-destination is totally different and it's a totally different market.
* Park and Ride works well, although it is not particularly cost-effective from a planet perspective.
* Ride and Drive (i.e. leave your car out of town and ride only transit in town) doesn't work.
AEM7
"Right. At least CI Peter got my point."
And I did too, though I should have been clearer. You took my response out of context.
"The economics and dynamics of the commute-to-work market is totally different to what someone was proposing earlier, that is, permanently leave your car at say Concourse Yd and only use the subway to get to it. The origin-destination is totally different and it's a totally different market."
Not really. It's a case of utilizing a resource for a different purpose. It can be done.
"* Park and Ride works well, although it is not particularly cost-effective from a planet perspective."
False. It can be very cost-effective, esp. in areas of congestion.
"Ride and Drive (i.e. leave your car out of town and ride only transit in town) doesn't work. "
Unproven assertion, and you have zero evidence to support your point (because it hasn't been tried yet). Long term parking lots at the airport work very well. Can you show that, if this contractor were to construct properly a similar lot at an LIRR station or near a subway terminal, and operate it on a long term parking scheme, that it would not work? You can't, until the first one is tried out.
(Say I want to take a day trip to Providence, the combined Subway/Amtrak trip cost is close to $60, while the zipcar would cost $120 or more.)
You don't need a car to go to providence. You need a car to go up to the Catskills, where my in-laws live, and places like that. Even within the region, transit isn't so great in some cases, and readily available care rental would help in a transit oriented life.
Consider what it was like for me to visit relatives in Yonkers -- just over the city line -- before I had a car. I would take the F to the A at Jay Street, then change to the #1 through that (at the time, not sure of now) nasty elevator. This was on a Sunday, when there was a potentially long wait before boarding each of the trains. Arriving at 242nd Street, I'd wait for the Westchester Bus which ran evey half-hour. Finally, there was a half-hour walk up hill. 2 1/4 hours each way was typical. It was 2 1/2 hours each way every month, by subway and New Jersey Transit, to visit a friend in Princeton Junction who way dying of ovarian cancer at the time.
Eventually, we got wise and started renting cars for trips like these. Then we checked the economics and found that (barely) the cost of owning a car was lower. Now that we have a car, however, I assure you that we use it for things that we would have walked to or used transit for if we didn't own it. A little lazy on Sunday morning, and a little behind? We drive the mile to church so we can leave ten minutes before and get there on time (except for the person who has to park). If we didn't have the car, we'd be sure and leave 25 minutes ahead and walk it.
And Metro-North Service offered no advantage?
(And Metro-North Service offered no advantage?)
None whatsoever. The link from the F/A train to Grand Central by subway is not direct (hope that Bleeker to Broadway/Lafayette transfer doesn't drop out of the capital program). We could have caught a train to Downtown Yonkers, but that would have been a 1/2 mile walk up the hill -- farther away from the bus from the subway. Grandma didn't drive, and couldn't pick us up.
We did take the LIRR to Long Island to visit my wife's relatives. They picked us up from the station.
Bottom line, outside the city you'll probably need a car.
Understood.
Cool idea.
I'll take MY trains, even If I had to pay for the ride....for garanteed 45 minute commute. Sure no one watches over vehicle security in the yard BUT how about city street parking (I can write a treatise on street survival)? I would like to leave my car in the yard all week, blast out Friday afternoon, come back Sunday sans grocery load free. No ASotS signage, no parking meters, no yellow cab doors smacking my car and no trucks sideswiping off my mirror. How much power do you think it takes to move a handful of Car Inspectors to 241st/Wakefield??? CI peter
BART in the SF Bay Area and others are involved in several pilot programs to rent cars at transit nodes for short term usage. BART also leases electric cars with chargers at the station parking lots. BTW, New Yorkers already have adopted the rental car for weekend freight routine years ago--which is why most Hertz, Avis etc weekend bargain deals (when the suits have not parked them at meetings) are not valid in the NYC market.) Even at expensive rates cited, for the car in question, its likely cheaper once or twice a month than just the car insurance by the year. Add on maintenance...
Clearly the "social behavior" version of tax policy would severely tax car ownership, which in turn would encourage rental for specific tasks. Think of carpet steamers, or other occasional use machinery. In turn, perhaps the disgusting SUV's would be less numerous if the simple cost of ownership were higher.
Clearly the "social behavior" version of tax policy would severely tax car ownership, which in turn would encourage rental for specific tasks.
Errrr... no. High car ownership cost, given that I want to have a car, would encourage me to use my car whenever I can... So if for one specific task I need the car (e.g. driving out to Ohio, where a rental by the mile is clearly not cost effective), or maybe I can't get credit to rent a car because I am foreign or because of my credit history, then I would:
* Buy a junk car
* Pay the ridiculously high ownership tax on it (or find ways to evade it, for instance by registering it in Canada)
* Drive it for all its worth, because I've already paid the high fixed cost
AEM7
1. Junk cars get you stuck in unexpected places and the rescue costs are prohibitive (even when you are 'mechanically inclined.
2. Tax and insurance invasion schemes do get caught up with especially when you are a civil service employee. You can drive for five years on city streets never having any accident BUT when the BIG ONE comes, your insurance company WILL void your coverage AND the state WILL come after you for unpaid usage taxes.
3. You can drive your vehicle for all it's worth IF you start with a new vehicle under warranty and do the basics....oil changes, tire rotation/replacement, underhood inspection, etcetera.
I had at least seven fully insured company cars which listed me as the primary driver with my primary residence in Manhattan. Just before I went into TA, an elderly man caught caddy-corner in a too small parking space struck the right rear tire, apologised and I left to park around the corner for a service call. The man filed a damage claim...I left the scene of an accident and now pay over two hundred dollars a year for the surcharge. No free lunch for the kind.
I decided to get my own car after having to cough up almost $200 anytime I needed to rent a car. Why? My age (I'm 19). While the insurance is a pain, I will now be able to move without having to look at the bank account because I know the vast majority of my cost in advance. Since it will be used mostly upstate, my insurance also gave me a break.
Before you say that THINGS BREAK ON CARS UNEXPECTEDLY, the same can be said about AMTRAK, so what do you do? You can be out of luck on AMTRAK and miss an event because of mechanical failure or lateness just as easily as a malfunction on a car would cause the same thing.
By the way, I am still very much pro-transport. But CDTA has one good bus route in Schenectady (the 55) and I can't move to and from school on AMTRAK, so necessity required me to get a car.
Only if you really want the car. You missed the point. Fewer of you would want a car to begin with, and a junk car is likely not to meet emission standards.
Either way, you'd be less likely to drive to a New Jersey supermarket if the car wasn't downstairs waiting for you.
But then you'd have to deal with a crappy, overpriced city "supermarket."
>>> offer tax breaks for rental car agencies who make cars available at the periphery of the transit system <<<
I think you are missing the point. The trips would not be a combination of public transport and rented car, but the availability of a car so the person who can make most of his trips by public transit does not feel the need to own a car for the few journeys that need to be taken by automobile.
The rental car locations would have to be throughout the residential neighborhoods, and have streamlined frequent renter agreements so someone can call and say I would like a car in a half hour, and when he arrives 30 minutes later, signs one document which refers to an agreement already on file, and is handed the keys. If a person averages two days a week rental, the cost of the rental car for the two days must be lower that 1/52 the annual ownership costs (amortized price and scheduled maintenance, insurance, registration, garage) for it to make sense. That's a pretty tough business model.
Tom
No, I'm not missing the point at all. I agree it may not be easy. But I also think it's worth trying. It's failure would be tuition in our further understanding of viable transportation options.
(If a person averages two days a week rental, the cost of the rental car for the two days must be lower that 1/52 the annual ownership costs (amortized price and scheduled maintenance, insurance, registration, garage) for it to make sense. That's a pretty tough business model.)
If you are using a car two days a week, it doesn't work. But we need to use a car much less than that.
Our calculations assumed about 20 weekends per month (say 45 days) on trips out of town to visit friends and relatives or go camping. If we didn't own our own car, other trips would be replaced by transit and walking (at the cost of some time) or taxis. For example, it is common for Brooklynites to travel to one of our few large supermakets by mass transit and take a car service or taxi home with the bags, sometimes in twos to split the cost of the ride.
So we have to add up 45 days of car rental, 40 additional car service rides, and additional transit rides for the kids (my wife and I go with unlimited passes anyway, mine is provided by the job as an NYCT employee). Against that, we have the cost of the car, insurance ($1,350 per year liability only), and maintenance. Gas and tolls woudl be slightly lower, but we put on most of our mileage on those trips out of town anyway.
It was close, but that was before we bought the car and before the cost of car rental in NYC soared (in part due to "vicarious liability" -- if the rental car is used in a crime, the rental car company can be sued). Now that our $16,700 car is worth only $6,500, the cost of the car itself will be only about $50 per month for the next decade or so. When we have to buy a car again, however, it may once again make sense not to if rental cars are cheaper and more available.
One problem with car rentals, occasional or otherwise, is the fact that the actual rental charge bears only the slightest relationship to what one actually pays. Most states and many cities have figured out that taxing car rentals to death is a dandy way to raise money without political repercussions. After all, most of the renters who get stuck with these taxes are from other areas and do not vote in the taxing jurisdictions. For their part, the rental companies turn on the hard sell, trying to get customers to pay for exhorbitantly overpriced insurance. Customers who do not own their own vehicles, and therefore who do not have their own auto insurance policies, often have no choice but to pay these extortionate rates.
No way.
Alright, let's see some numbers -- not that I have comparable numbers to boot, but, do YOU?
On the other hand, in low density areas the cost of construction per person served is great... The cost of maintenance per person served is also higher in low density areas, because some wear and tear is caused by weathering and not by traffic.
You are obviously forgetting freight traffic. Your claim that the road serves a lot less persons per mile up in the boonies is correct, but the road also serves the farms where the grain is produced. Most of rural America is farmland. If you calculate the pavement damage and allocate the cost based on the three elements: (1) auto damage, (2) grain truck damage, and (3) weather damage -- with the weather damage allocated equally amongst the auto and grain users per ton-mile (would seem fair), you'll find that the grain trucks, even though only in use for the harvest season, causes some 80%-90% of the damage to the pavement, versus 10-20% for the auto traffic (including tourist, interstate and residential traffic).
In any case, the rural collectors are necessary for various reasons other than the farmers getting in and out. Rural collectors and trunks are necessary for interstate commerce, also for getting products to market. It is way cheaper to produce value added goods in the Midwest where land is cheap so you can build a factory, than trying to cram everything in the Northeast. If we assume the highest value goods are carried by truck, those also contribute hugely (both in terms of damage and their justification) to the cost of building rural roads.
The real wastage in auto-highway investment occurs in the suburbs and the commuter parkways, which are practically dedicated commuter facilities, sometimes not even designed for truck. Commuters are the biggest auto wastage. This explains why I am so hostile towards commuter autos, commuter rails, and subways that carry only commuters. It's a waste of resources.
If you want high transit use (and pedestrian trips) overall, therefore, you have to convince people not to buy the car.
No -- you should align the cost of auto-use with the true social cost.
AEM7
Believe it or not -- and on a related topic -- one quasi-federal agency actually did announce something to try and get people out or their cars and into mass transit on Friday, by trying to get people to relocate to where mass transit is available:
***
By DAVID B. CARUSO
Associated Press Writer
PHILADELPHIA (AP) - Hoping to ease traffic and revive older suburbs, Fannie Mae is offering bigger mortgages to people who buy homes near train stations and bus stops and agree to own just one car.
After a modest debut in a few cities, the program was introduced this week in Philadelphia. Fannie Mae, or the Federal National Mortgage Association, as the company is formally known, is hoping to offer it soon in Washington, D.C., Atlanta, Baltimore, Louisville, Ky., and State College, Pa.
Buyers who purchase a home within a quarter-mile of a bus line or a half-mile of a train station can qualify for a mortgage up to 8 percent larger than they could get under a traditional loan.
In exchange, they must agree to limit the number of cars they own to no more than one per adult driver.
The arrangement was perfect for Charlotte and Benjamin Loveland, who are buying a home in Ogden, Utah, about 40 miles north of Salt Lake City.
The couple had not been planning to use public transportation, but the larger loan is allowing them to buy a four-bedroom house on a street served by a city bus line. Now, Benjamin Loveland plans to take the bus to class at Weber State University.
"He doesn't have to pay for parking. He doesn't have to fight the crowds," Charlotte Loveland said. "He has enough stress at work. We figured using the bus to commute to school would be more relaxing."
The program is aimed in part at reviving older suburbs that fell out of favor when people began driving longer distances to work.
In the Philadelphia area, the "Smart Commute" program is being administered by Citizens Bank in five counties served by buses and commuter trains. The program will cover much of the city as well as older suburbs like Norristown, Chester and Jenkintown.
The program is based on studies showing that people who commute on public transportation can save $200 to $250 per month, compared to the cost of owning, maintaining and insuring an automobile.
"Basically what the program acknowledges is that commuting by train or by bus is cheaper than owning a car, and because you are spending less money, you can afford more house," said Barry Seymour of the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission, which did research for the program.
So far the loan offer is still considered a pilot program.
It began three years ago in a limited and somewhat different form in Chicago, Seattle and San Francisco. In the past year or so, Fannie Mae has backed about $3 million in loans in a 10-block neighborhood along a commuter train line in Minneapolis and recently began offering the program in the Salt Lake City area and Pittsburgh.
In some cities the loans are paired with discounts on public transportation. The Lovelands got six months of free bus passes with their home loan. In Seattle, participants can get half-off on a monthly transit pass.
"I think it is inconceivable that people could live without a car in America. We recognize that reality," said Robert Sahadi, vice president for housing impact at Fannie Mae. "But when people are sitting in traffic all day, the romance of the suburbs can fade pretty fast. We want to give real estate agents something to market, which is that their commute could be much better if they took the train."
I like that.
Expand it. New York should be included in the program, as should Los Angeles, Boston and Miami.
(Hoping to ease traffic and revive older suburbs, Fannie Mae is offering bigger mortgages to people who buy homes near train stations and bus stops and agree to own just one car. )
The real issue here is "revive older suburbs." People continue to flee those less affluent than themselves, and their fiscal and social burdens. It isn't just working class flight from the poor. It's middle class flight from the working class, etc.
Remember when people talked about the "inner city?" That was back in the 1950s and 1960s, when people were fleeing to outer city neighborhoods like Marine Park in Brooklyn, CoOp City, Queens, Northeast Philly, etc. Then came flight from the entire city in the 1970s. Now its flight from suburbs developed immediately after WWII.
This is getting ridiculous.
It's been shown that when city centers get sick, suburbs suffer too. Thus, the flight to suburbia is often futile (in the macro sense).
>>> In exchange, they must agree to limit the number of cars they own to no more than one per adult driver. <<<
Not much of a restriction for a family if the oldest child is less than five years old. After 11 years, when the kid is old enough to drive, how will they enforce the limitation? And if a child can get a driver's license at 16, and becomes an adult at 18, it is not much of a restriction even if the family chooses to abide by it. About the only thing this prevents is the family from owning special purpose extra cars like a restored classic car, a drag racer, dune buggy or RV, or vehicles at a remote location such as at a summer cottage. I do not see it as an effective way to increase use of public transportation.
Tom
But, these cars are still needed for the same people going somewhere other than downtown New York.
This is clearly NOT SO! When I lived in the City, (Both Manhattan and later in Brooklyn) I did not own a car. I never considered it necessary to own a car. I could get to any place I wanted in the New York Metropolitan Area by subway, train or bus.
When it came time for a vacation, I rented a car and drove out of state.
When I lived in Brooklyn, and wanted to go grocery shopping, I pulled a little wire cart behind me, got what I needed and walked back home. The trip was no longer than what mom (on Long Island) would have done with the car and going to a big suburban supermarket.
And if you can't do that, the supermarket would be happy to deliver to your door. Just try *that* on Long Island!
BTW: Can you tell me what state has the MOST cars per capita????
Elias
(BTW: Can you tell me what state has the MOST cars per capita???? )
I'll cheat by looking it up in the NY Times Almanac (1997 data). The answer is New Hampshire (.63) Live free or die. Connecticut, Massachusettes and Ohio are the other states at .6 or more. It's not just auto/transit use, it's income, and these are affluent states, so they can afford two cars and a third as a spare. New York State was .44.
But New York wasn't the lowest. The lowest was.. Arkansas .34, with Texas right behind at .35. With little transit, those in these states may need a second car, but many who live there cannot afford it.
North Dakota has more miles of road per capita than any state in the nation. There are approximately 166 miles of road for every 1,000 people. Therefore, we have a very large road network with a small population base to support it.
North Dakota has the second smallest department of transportation, in terms of employees, in the nation. Only Hawaii is smaller.
NDDOT maintains more lane-miles of roads per maintenance employee than any other state in the nation.
In North Dakota there are more vehicles registered than there are residents of the state.
http://www.state.nd.us/dot/facts.html
If I recall correctly, some of those roads may be DoD-related. Minot and Grand Forks AFB are up there and is there not also a B-52 or B-1 (or B-2 now?) bomber base there too - don't some of those roads service the bases?
>>> When I lived in the City, (Both Manhattan and later in Brooklyn) I did not own a car. I never considered it necessary to own a car. I could get to any place I wanted in the New York Metropolitan Area by subway, train or bus. <<<
Of course your wants and needs accommodated themselves to your life style. I was without a car from last September through June, and therefor dependant on public transportation. I was able to maintain a reasonable life style, but restaurants I used to go to regularly became so inconvenient that I no longer wanted to go to them and located new ones on transit lines. When driving I would compare the ads from several supermarkets and patronize the one that week with the specials that attracted me. While using public transportation, and having only one really convenient supermarket, I no longer looked at specials from other markets and did not miss them.
New York public transportation is much better than Southern California's, but whether you realized it or not your choices were dictated to a certain amount by the transit system, and if you never were independent of the transit system, you could not make a valid comparison.
Tom
Was watching "Dog Day Afternoon" this weekend, & at the beginning of the movie, the police summon Sonny's wife from outside a McDonald's under an El. Where is it? The one at 25th Ave. under the West End? Just curious...
After 26 years since the movie was made the McDonald's may not be there anymore.
As far as I know, the McDonalds is still there, but the el isn't. It's the corner of Queens Blvd. & Jamaica Ave., under the old Queens Blvd. station on the J line. As a matter of fact, my first day on the road as a conductor way back when I worked job J301 which started at Queens Blvd. just after 12 noon, and I grabbed a quick bite in this same McDonalds before I started work for the day.
Do work trains opreate the same way as regular trains (a master controller and brake valve stand), or are they operated a different way? Last week I saw a work train pass through canal street and the T/O looked like he was sitting sideways!
They have totaly different controlls. for one thing W/T have two type of air brakes. One for the hole train line and the other just for the Diesel. It is hard to expland how they work, only thing I could say is that it took me about a mouth to get comfable enough to opt. one the right way. You have to know how to play with the brakes to keep the train under control at all times, since if you take a train line brake it take about 10seconce or more(Depernds on the train lenth) for them to work and to release. As for sitting sideways, yes he was. You have to sit like that to look out when you are pulling a train. When you are pushing the train you can sit strate but you might be looking at cars infront of you and can't see anything else. This is why you need to have a very good partner up front telling you way inavent to slow down or thing like that.
Robert
What effect will CBTC have on work trains? I'm sure they won't have CBTC in work trains.
Know one know whats going to happen with work train and CBTC. I brought up this a few mouth ago.
Robert
Locomotive Brake and Trainline?
Sounds like Freight hauling to me!!
Then add in when you are operating from the wrong end of the train and have someone with the big earphones riding up front callnig back the signals...ohhhh....sound like fun...
Thank you to the last MOW train I saw, they ended up sitting in the station for almost 20 minutes but he shut down the prime mover and didn't stink up the place.
I like the work trains I just hated the Hours of work. I was PM, and as for TA work rules PM shift can start anywere from 12:00PM to 9:59pm and at 10:00pm that becoumes Midnight shift. I used to get alot of job that started at 9:59pm and I would not get off untill 7:00 or 8:00am or later then next moring. This depended on who I was working with that night. So for these guys are so money hungy that it can take them 30mins to go from Pacific Street to 36th Street. I mean that you could wake the track faster then they would go. I don't mind making money, but when your wife has to get to work and you have to watch a kid, it get hard. It was even more so when I move to NJ. I would say to anyone who can do these hours who don't have the same thing that I have, I mean no kids you have to watch when you wife goes to work and such. It is a good thing to learn within the TA.
Sorry for just rambling on.
Robert
What does "pulling" and "pushing" meam?
Engine in front vs engine in back !!
Since there was a recent post about an el in the movie Dog Day Afternoon, what movies do you think have the best shots of subways or other transit? I can only think of one that I've seen personally, a French movie released last year called Amelie. It had lots of shots of trains on elevated sections of the Paris Metro as well as scences in underground stations, some scences on the Paris RER commuter trains, and even a good shot of a TGV locomotive parked in a train station. I know there are more out there, but I don't see nearly as many movies as some folk.
Mark
Ghost had some decent ones.
The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3.
Saturday Night Fever
Money Train - but the R30s with the door chimes (why couldn't they model an R46?) are bogus.
Here are some more,
The French Connection
Avalon-Great PCC shots
The Incident
Speed-LA Red Line and a Fishbowl
Peace,
ANDEE
Also, "Running Scared" with that excellent chase scene on Chicago's subway and Loop.
--Mark
I only remember hearing door chimes once, and they were on that R-62 4 train.
An interesting thing about Money Train: the R-30s were used in all scenes filmed on the subway set while all scenes filmed on the actual subway featured R-62s.
Speaking of Saturday Night Fever (which was shown on AMC Sunday night), did anyone notice the goof they made on the subway scenes. It wasn't germain to the plot at all, but basically, John Travolta's character, Tony Manero boards the RR in Bay Ridge (not sure if at 95th St or 86th St, may have been the former, since he was coming from the base of the Verrazano Bridge after his friend Bobby C. had fallen to his death from the bridge), and he is headed to Manhattan to meet Stephanie. So he rides aboard an R-27 or R-30, there are various scenes of different trains (mostly R-27/R-30s, though in one scene an R-44 or R-46 passes by (couldnt tell which). Anyone, he finally gets of the train, supposedly a Manhattan-bound train coming from 95th St, as he is walking to the exit, you see the rear of the R-27/R-30 leaving the station--displaying "RR ASTORIA"!!! Now if he had been on a Manhattan-bound RR the sign shoulda been set to "95th Street" on the rear car, which means either the sign was set wrong or the director blew it (like I sad it was not relevant to the plot at all, I may have been the only person to notice it).
Are you talking about one of the final scenes in the movie? That was an R32 pulling out of the station - and I believe the interior of the car he was riding was consistent with that.
Hmm all the cars I saw, except for the R-44 or R-46, seemed to be R-27s or R-30s, didn't see any R-32 fluting on the cars, just that hideous silver/blue stripe paint scheme of course covered by a mountain of grafitti. If I can ever find my VHS copy of SNF I will take a closer look.
You're right. There were no R-32's used in the underground scenes. I think he's referring to the R-32's which you see on the El in the beginning of the film. Note the blue front and side doors (pre-GOH). Also, did the RR follow the same route as the current R?
No it the didn't The RR ran the same route as the R through brooklyn and Manhattan but in Queens It would go up to Astoria instead of going to the Queens Blvd. IND. So the routing was
95 st 4 ave. - Ditmars Blvd Astoria Queens
Adam
Thank you, Adam. Kinda wish the subway kept the double-letter routes. How well I remember the GG, but I digress....
I saw it, too. The funny thing is, Travolta is seen boarding at 53rd St., which as we all know is quite a distance from 95th St. It's yet another shining example of producers figuring no one would notice or care.
BTW, the cars at the beginning of the movie on the West End are R-38s.
The plot in "Closing Doors" all hung, of course, on Gwyneth Paltrow's character either just catching or just missing a London tube train (hence the title).
Risky Business. Great shots of the L and subways.
Ya gotta admit it...making love to "Lana" on the L is a tantalizing proposition!
I loved the way they threw out the "bum" who was riding the train so they could "get it on". Oh yeah, Lana was "hot".
Chuck Greene
How many movies would have a "sex" scene on the subway. Or even in a station or in the tunnel (of love?)?
I'd have to say "Ghost". It has some scenes in the abandoned lower 42 Street station, and also at Myrtle-Broadway.
In the scene with Patrick Swayze and that other ghost in the lower 42nd Street station, a few trains pass by without stopping. If you look closely, I think those trains were "J" R-40M's.
R-10's would have been a nice touch, would have made it seem more like it was back in the day when it was the "Aqueduct Special". At the time "Ghost" was filmed, they were just in the process of scrapping those cars.
You want R-10's? Check out the following two films: "The Pawn Broker" with Rod Steiger and "The House on Carrol Street" with Kelly McGillis. Both feature R-10's. "The Pawn Broker", which is a truly classic film with a tour-de-force performance by Steiger features them in their delivery livery while the "House" has them in the green GOH scheme. "House" is very nice little period who-done-it that is quite accurate as regards to set dressing. The street scenes feature such things as the proper type street signs, mailboxes etc. from the period. Nice shots of an old NYC "S" motor in the Grand Central Station tunnels too. Unfortunately, it is not available on video. It is shown on cable movie channels often though.
Another movie with R10's is "Jacob's Ladder" which was filmed at the lower platform at Bergen Street on the G and F lines.
And lower Bergen still had it's tiles back then yet! You can see the little IND "Bergen"'s very clearly.
I read somewhere that they put tiles on the walls at Bergen lower level just for that movie.
Frank, are you sure about House on Carroll St?
I have a VHS copy of the movie.
IIRC the R-10s weren't used on the Aqueduct Special, at least not in the 60s. Back then it used R-1/9s and possibly R-38s.
True, but when "Ghost" was filmed, R-10's were the oldest cars still in service, and I dare say they much more closely resemble the R-1/9's than do the R-40M's.
I'll have to look next time. I believe a lot of filming was done on an R40M or R42 (forgot which and don't feel like pulling out the movie), as that is what the interior shots are one of those classes. Maybe they "rented" an R40-42 and brought it to the lower 42 street for the filming. The scene where lower 42 Street actually plays 42 Street has R40M's or R42's running through (without stopping oddly enough) Also, in a few of the scenes when he is looking for the resident ghost on the train, or walking through the train, every so often you get a get a quick glimpse of an IND "42" from the tile in that station (even in the scenes where it's not supposed to be 42 Street.)
There is also a scene of a J train (R40 or R42) pulling into the Myrtle Ave station (with that old abandoned theater that used to be there in the backround) and Patrick Swayze gets out onto the platform, and then later you see him walking under the el structure at that station. The "vilain" in the movie actually gets killed and taken by demons right under the Myrtle-Broadway station in a creepy scene.
It's funny, but before the "J" pulls into the Myrtle station, you see a shot of what looks like a 3 train (R62) at I think where the New Lots line comes out of the tunnel near Utica. Well that's okay, because it is "Hollywood" - Actually the "J" train Patrick Swayze rides on starts at the "Franklin Ave" station (aka 42 lower level) turns into the 3 train at Utica (only a railfan would notice all this though) and finally pulls into the Myrtle-Broadway station!
The trains in the lower level scenes at 42 St in "Ghost" were R38's, not R40M or R42. The R62A coming out of the tunnel was at Dyckman Street on the 1/9 line. Even the resident ghost was on a mock-up set of an R38. Notice the windows and the roll signs. The give-away that its a mock-up is that GOH R38 do not have the openable part of the window 2 sectioned. All openable windows became single-sectioned on R32 and R38. The Myrtle Ave scene is with an R40 J train and a parked R42 M train on the center track.
The best scene is when Sam finds out Carl is involved. When he tries to hit Carl, R32's in the original form make a double run by at the Park Place station on the Franklin Ave Shuttle.
The first subway scene where Sam and the killer board is meant to be Franklin Street, not Franklin Ave.
Okay brooklyn, you made me pull out the movie just like I said I didn't feel like doing - lol. You are right they are R38's - noticed it instantly with the benefit of having the movie right in front of me (my other post was just by a vague memory of the movie, as I hadn't watched it in a while). The J train is a full length train of R40M's (distinctive R40 dent on the exterior.) As for the set vs. real train of R38's, some may be sets, but some are no doubt real.
In the scene where "Sam" goes through the "torture" of his killer "friend" trying to seduce his wife and runs to the subway afterwards, he goes down the escalator at the lower 42 Street station to the station called "Franklin", and runs through the train, if you watch the frames of Patrick Swayze running through the train frame by frame, you can see the "42's" from the lower level very clearly outside the windows, so some of the "on train" scenes were filmed on real R38's.
As for the Franklin Street vs. Avenue (the pillars just say Franklin), I don't know - but do know that it was filmed at lower 42 Street, as the escalator is very clear, and an old painted sign I've seen in photos of the abandoned 42 street (directing people to the upper level)is in the scene very clearly in the scene where he jumps on the train.
I saw a movie last week (a funny cop movie circa 1990) that was supposed to take place in Williamsburgh, Brooklyn. At the begining there was an R38 on the Jamaica El.
At the end, there was a TTA subway (Toronto Transit Auth.) in a subway station. I stopped the tape, and clearly saw the TTA logo in the middle of the subway car, though they put an MTA logo on the glass of the doors.
The movie version of "Car 54, Where Are You?"
Sam and Molly lived in Tribeca or Soho. Most likely it would be Franklin Street being there is no Franklin Ave in Manhattan. But the shot is at the lower level 42 St platform. I also mentioned the scene with the unrebuilt R32's on Franklin service. Brings a tear to my eyes every time I see the run-bys in that scene.
Yeah that is a good scene with the run-bys.
It's funny because they get off at Myrtle-Broadway station, and walk to "Willy's" house (and can see one of the buildings that is near that station in the backround of when they go to the fortune teller near Willy's house), but have the Franklin Shuttle going by in another scene that's supposed to be in the same location (but not really quick walking distance from Myrtle-Broadway)- but it's Hollywood, so anything goes.
Lest we forget The Warriors. Then there's Class of '44, with a brief run-by pan shot of the Museum Triplex train, running empty.
Speaking of Saturday Night Fever, did anyone catch the train markings on that RR train John Travolta boards near the end? The bulkhead signs are OK, but in one particular shot, the upper destination sign is set for 168th St. Couldn't make out the rest of it; chances are the widescreen version would show the rest of it. Since the bottom sign is set for 95th St., you might think the upper sign says 168th St. Jamaica; hence the old RJ settings. However, the RJ was long gone by the time SNF was filmed. I caught another gaffe: as the train slows to a stop with Travolta aboard, the station signs say 45th St. looking out from the inside of the train. After the train leaves and Travolta gets off, all of a sudden we're at 53rd St. Oops!
The movie is old enough, though, that some TA rollsigns might have still had the old destinations on them.
If I'm wrong, let me know...
I ddn't catch the route sign setting in that particular shot. The R-27/30s still had their original side destination curtains in the late 70s; however, they got new route signs, both front and side, when the Chrystie St. connection opened.
Speaking of Saturday Night Fever, did anyone catch the train markings on that RR train John Travolta boards near the end? The bulkhead signs are OK, but in one particular shot, the upper destination sign is set for 168th St. Couldn't make out the rest of it; chances are the widescreen version would show the rest of it. Since the bottom sign is set for 95th St., you might think the upper sign says 168th St. Jamaica; hence the old RJ settings. However, the RJ was long gone by the time SNF was filmed. I caught another gaffe: as the train slows to a stop with Travolta aboard, the station signs say 45th St. looking out from the inside of the train. After the train leaves and Travolta gets off, all of a sudden we're at 53rd St. Oops!
Sounds like something for nitpickers.com!
If you look, you'll also note the then-new R-46's still with the blue stripe flying past while Travolta is waiting at 53rd St. I saw the film three times on Sat., and unfortunately no where are the car #'s of the R-27/R-30's shown. I got a kick out of seeing the original side curtains though.
If you look close as that R-46 train goes by, you'll see R-27/30s laid up on one of the express tracks. I caught a brief glimpse of an 8300-series car number as Travolta boarded the train for the first time. Someone should have slapped him on the wrist and said, "Eh!! No smoking on the train! Capeesh?!?"
Night Hawks with Sylvester Stallone has him and Billy Dee Williams chasing the bomber on a train of R1-R9's as well as a chase through the 63 Street Tunnel during construction.
Did your heart leap up into your throat when Stallone kicked out that storm door window? Mine sure did.
There was one glaring inaccuracy in that scene though. When he reaches inside to open the storm door, it's unlocked!
Peace,
ANDEE
Sylvester Stallone was alse in a subway scene in Bananas, with Woody Allen. He played a street thug who Allen pushes off the train as the doors are closing, only to have the doors re-open.
I also want to include this TV movie from the 70's(very difficult to find) called "Dreams Don't Die" about a Brooklyn kid who turned to bombing trains and got caught by TA cop Paul Winfield while painting a parked R27/30 at Hoyt-Schemehorn Station on the wall track. Close to the end has him doing another train in either Coney Island or 207 St Yard. And we must include "Beat Street, Body Rock, Wild Style, Death Wish( with Charles Bronson), The Warriors, and Fort Apache, The Bronx".
Pi (an excellent indie film from a few years back) has a couple of scenes in subway stations. One scene in particular is quite amusing. It starts out at 47-50 Street in Manhattan, but all of a sudden the signs for 15 Street in Brooklyn appear even though according to the storyline the entire scene takes place in just one station. In his commentary on the DVD, the director explains that the movie was made on a very low budget without an MTA filming permit. The crew began shooting the scene at 47-50 in the middle of the night, but had to move elsewhere when the station began to get too crowded.
The 1984 movie "Streets Of Fire" has excellent footage of Chicago's L and subway.
In the closing scene of the 1933 Movie "Buzzin' Around", you can clearly see a BMT standard in the Avenue M Brighton line station as Fatty Arbuckle, Al St. John and Petey the dog, ride a bicycle/bathtub down Avenue M.
http://subway.com.ru/vitagraph/buzzin1.htm
Here is the image from Buzzin' Around showing Ave. M station.
Check this out:
http://www.chicago-l.org/multimedia/index.html
Graham Garfield's excellent website on the Chicago "L" (a good companion to nycsubway.org, however no message board) has an entire section on the "L" in various movies and TV shows, as well as other sound bites. Pretty interesting to peruse!
A couple of movies involving the Chicago "L" that come to mind are "The Hunter" with Steve McQueen and "Ali" with Will Smith. Both movies included cars that are now at the Illinois Railway Museum. :-)
Frank Hicks
"Adventures in Babysitting" features 6000-series cars.
Which was actually an incredibly accurate Toronto studio mockup.
I don't think they ever ran anything resembling Chicago's 6000-series cars in Toronto.
There was a recent film featuring Judge Reinhold which is set in Chicago, and while it doesn't have any subway footage, it does have - streetcar tracks! When I saw it, I thought, wait a minute. Chicago hasn't had streetcars since 1958. When the credits rolled, everything fell into place. Some scenes were filmed in Toronto.
I know the hosptial in K-pax had an El running behind it, not sure where exactly it was supposed be, it coulda been the 1 or 9 at 125th, any of the bronx IRT lines, or the MN park ave Viaduct. I got the feeling that the film was either Southern Bronx or Northern Manhatten.
Another movie of about the same age is Don't Say a Word, which in which the subway in lower manhatten (1,9? N,R? 4,5? I think 1,9 at South Ferry, but I'm really not sure), where the girls father was killed. It also had scenes from Potters Island and the Island next to it, which I managed to find on Kevin Walsh's excellent site.
That's all i can think of for now, and it's late, so screw any research.
>
http://www.compleatseanbean.com/dsaw-11.jpg
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0260866/IMG0094.jpg
These are the only two Photos I would find for Don't Say a Word, the latter looks like a hell of a 12-9, at least the Girl apparantly doesn't blame the T/O.
Anybody wanna play 'Where was this Picture Taken?" Or is it a set?
And I forgot, In Kpax, there are scenes with Jeff Bridges on a MN train heading out of the city, IIRC.
Could this be the lower Nevins Street station? From the mosaic on the wall it certainly appears to be a Contract One or Contract Two IRT station.
It's Lower Bay Street in Toronto.
See:
click here
Yeah, that poster for the Toronto Globe was mucho careless.
Wow, that had me fooled, at first glance it could pass for a NYC station!
That photo, at a quick glimpse, could be a double for Grant Ave on the "A" line.
--mark
The remade ''Taking of Pelham 123''.Toronto,for GOD'S sake,looks Nothing like New York....
It's also nothing like the original, either. Awful, awful, awful.
"the Babysitter"(?), with Elisabeth Shue, had a sequence with the babysitter and her charges inside a CTA 6000 class.
"Little Nikita" featuered the San Diego Trolley
"Malcolm" was about an idiot savant tramway buff who uses his knowledge of the Melbourne Tramway system (The Met)to plan a robbery. It include a "getaway" tram.
Adventures in Babysitting...yes I remember Shue fended off a gang called the Lords of Hell on an L train.
Mark
BTW, has anyone yet mentioned "Die Hard 3"? If this has been canvassed here before, then I apologise in advance, but does anyone know about the Redbird - if it was a real Redbird - that was wrecked in the subway station bombing, which I assume was meant to be somwhere downtown on the 1-9?
Die Hard 3 was used with R30 for the bombing scene. And the station was Wall Street on the 2 and 3 line. Some scenes with Maclane on the train were on R26/28's. I still wonder how they made that cab on the left side of the train. 2 cabs and the storm door still with a railfan view. A redbird version of a full width cab but with 2 separate cabs.
I guess the Paoli cops should get rubber bed sheets!
I consider myself a civil libertarian, but I don't have much sympathy for this guy if the facts as stated are correct.
- A police car parking lot is not a place where the public has the right to be, any more than a subway yard or a bus parking lot is.
- He was supposedly asked to go away and came back. If I asked someone to leave my front yard and he came back, I would want himaarrested too.
It might still be overreaction by the police, but it strikes me as totally constitutional (always assuming the facts are as stated).
It also doesn't strike me as a major crime, but then again no one is saying he's going to go to jail for years or anything.
This can only happen in Paoli. That's Philly suburbs for you.
In Boston, the police officer would probably just lamp you one and told you to eff off the property.
The following are a list of service changes that I believe should be implemented on the Division B(IND/BMT) routes
A LINE-Have all Leffetts Blvd trains rerouted to Rockaway Park(See C Line)
B LINE-No changes
C LINE-Extend from Euclid Ave to Leffetts Blvd. Late nights Shuttle train to operate between Euclid Ave and Leffetts Blvd
D LINE-Have D trains make local stops between 59th Street and 145th Street late nights and weekends when the B Line does not operate.BTW This change can be implemented right now since its only a 2 or 3 min. differnce and no additional trains or crews will be needed
E LINE-No changes
F LINE-F trains to operate express between Continental Ave and 179th Street and between Jay Street and Church Avenue weekdays between 6AM and 7 PM- See V Line
G LINE-Discontinue service between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave evenings,nights and weekends(See R Line)
Extend from Smith/9th Street to Church Ave
J/Z LINE-Restore J Line service between Chambers and Broad Street weekends. Extend peak direction skip/stop service span. Implement reverse peak skip/stop service which the TA did in 1999 when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed for the summer
L LINE-No changes
M LINE-No chnages
N LINE-No changes at this time
Q LINE-No changes at this time
DIAMOND Q LINE-Redesignate as T Line to end confusion
R LINE-Restore 24 hour service between Continental Ave and 95th Street
V LINE-Extend from Continental Ave to 179th Street and from 2nd Avenue to Church Ave(See F Line)
W LINE-No changes at this time
FRANKLIN AVE SHUTTLE-No changes
GRAND STREET SHUTTLE-No changes
ROCKAWAY PARK SHUTTLE-Will operate late nights only when A trains do not operate to Rockaway Park
Any commnets
Thank You
>>>"G LINE-Discontinue service between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave evenings,nights and weekends"<<<
Here we go again, the G line riders (Greenpointers) are asked to
take it on the chin and do the "Citi-Corp" shuffle at Court House
Square, 24/7. We love you too Barry, BTW how often, if ever have
you done the Court Square~23rd/Ely transfer?
;| ) Sparky
This time, I gotta agree with you, John. The weekend G service needs to stay.
But this is Subtalk. So no harm done.
One favor: Before you continue whining about the G transfer at Court Square, do yourself a favor and try the transfer at 53-Lex a few times.
..."One favor: Before you continue whining about the G transfer at Court Square, do yourself a favor and try the transfer at 53-Lex a few times."...
Odd you should mention that. If for some reason the B-61 bus
from Brooklyn to Long Island City, is OOS, then I have a family
member (Mrs. Sparky) who would have to use the dual "Citi-Corp"
transfer to reach Grand Central Terminal to go to her place of
employment in White Plains. (She does have a disability and uses
a walker) Difficult enough of a dual transfer thru "City~Corp
Hell" for those who have to do it 5 days/50 weeks a year to reach
the East Side IRT from Greenpoint.
Ron, like you said this is SubTalk and I do have to defend the hood.
You know "Krakow on the East River". But now you know, there are
some personal issues involved also.
;| ) Sparky
Granted.
The MTA provided elevators on the IRT side of the Citicorp. transfer, but they still need to make the IND side ADA compliant. I think that's in the current Capital Plan, but I'm not sure.
It would make Mrs. Sparky's transfer a little easier.
Thanks Ron,
Without getting into a rant about NYCTA elevator & escalator services
to assist folks who need it, a nicer rephrased opinion from the Mrs.,
they leave a lot to be desired. Without going to the 51th Street
or 23/Ely transfers, the moving stairways at Grand Central from
Lexington Avenue mezzanine to the Flushing Line platform
are operational only 50% of the time. That's for both locations.
The Mrs. doesn't have very nice thoughts of the TA Station Manager
at Grand Central.
Forget about the elevator from mezzanine to terminal level,
unless you wear a mask to disguise the stench.
Remember the underpass at 42nd/8th.
This is what she tells me and this is on average
four days a week. 'nough said from a commuter.
;| ) Sparky
"Remember the underpass at 42nd/8th."
I walk it all the time. It's not bad at all (except it's a block long).
"Remember the underpass at 42nd/8th."
Ron, maybe I should have stated this in a more correct time frame.
I was reffering to the underpass from the northend of the south
platform to the southend of the north platform, that is no longer
used, since the rearangement of fare control at 8th Ave/42nd Street
to include a free transfer to the Times Square Station.
I was reffering to what it was to change from Downtown 'E' to
Uptown 'A', 'AA' or 'CC', back when. Not the current configuration
at that location. If you were on downtown platform and went up
you had to exit fare control or visa verse on uptown platform.
These were the stairs that went down to lower level and across.
;| ) Sparky
Thank you. Noted.
Eliminating the G on Queens Blvd. during weekends can be accomplished quite easily if the E ran local along Queens Blvd on weekends as well as late nights.
I am saying is to terminate the G Line at Queens Plaza NOT Court Square.
All you have to do is to change trains.
It was done from 1976 to 1990 first late nights and then as of 1987 weekends when the R operated full time between Contental Ave and 95th Street.
This way Queens Blvd riders will have improved access to Manhattan
Yes G Line riders will get the short end but lets face it you have more Queens Blvd local riders going to Manhattan then Brooklyn
Thank You
..."I am saying is to terminate the G Line at Queens Plaza NOT Court Square"...
it's a nice idea, but without additional trackage and tremendous
costs, which have been discussed on other posts, it's not practical.
..."It was done from 1976 to 1990 first late nights and then as of 1987 weekends when the R operated full time between Contental Ave and 95th Street....
this option is no longer applicable, now that there is a QB connection
to 21th~Queensbridge from both local and express QB tracks.
;| ) Sparky
It still is possible to terminate at Queens Plaza off hours. There is still a middle track north of Queens Plaza and before 36th Street and since short trains are used even though there is now the connection to 63rd Street just south of 36th Street
Thank You
It's possible, but why do it? Transfers are available at Court Sq.
it seems that Greenpointers are so damn lazy they hate walking so much thats why they complain about the transfers.it all comes down to people being lazy.
Would it be closer if there was a transfer from Queens Plz to Court Sq? I could see the end of a parked G train at Court Sq from the local track at Queens Plaza, and it doesn't look like that far a walk.
It's also quicker. It takes less time to get from the G platform to the E/V platform than it would if you did the transfer at Queens Plaza, factoring in the amount of time the G train would take to go from Court Sq. to Queens Plaza, and the time it takes an E/V to get from Queens Plaza to Ely Ave.
If you are transfering to an E/V, the formula is correct.
I would use the "CitiCorp" corridor if that were my destination.
But then again, dependent on where I were to disembark in Manhattan,
it's also the walk forward on my home station or Court Square,
then the walk at 23rd/Ely to where I prefer to exit the E/V in Manhattan.
It's not laziness on the part of Garden Spottersas a tomfool has posted.
But if you require the 'R', it's an additional walk to a
one stop ride to transfer to Queens Plaza and then across.
Then, if you want the 'F', east of Continental Avenue to 179th
or intermediate stops, it's an additional transfer for what
was across the platform at Queens Plaza a/o Roosevelt Avenue.
;| ) Sparky
But if you require the 'R', it's an additional walk to a
one stop ride to transfer to Queens Plaza and then across.
Then, if you want the 'F', east of Continental Avenue to 179th
or intermediate stops, it's an additional transfer for what
was across the platform at Queens Plaza a/o Roosevelt Avenue.
People will adjust.
the G cant end at Queens Plz anymore because of the widening of the tunnel between there and 36th for the 63rd st Connector.there isnt enough space for that anymore.
>>>...there isnt enough space for that anymore.<<<
WEEELLLL... they could always use the space between your ears.
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh Andy, that no nica.
;| ) Sparky
Yes, John, I know, but it had to be said.
Peace,
ANDEE
..."Yes, John, I know, but it had to be said"... AMEN
:| ) Sparky
Now a queery between you & I, are you going to be visiting Branford
in the near future? Looking foward to saying HOWDY.
I hope to be there for "NY Days" as I have not visited yet, this year and need to use up my passes.
Peace,
ANDEE
..."Yes, John, I know, but it had to be said"... AMEN
:| ) Sparky
Now a queery between you & I, are you going to be visiting Branford
in the near future? Looking foward to saying HOWDY.
haha very funny ~.~ go ahead,keep it up.I dont give damn anymore.I've dealt with crap like that all my life,by the gods,why stop now right!?
I've done that transfer, it's not that bad...
There are no "people movers" at 9th Street/4th Ave, Lexington/53rd St, Times Sq (to access the ACE from all other lines), etc. Heck, trasferring to the L from the G at Lorimer/Metropolitan is a more ardous experience than the Court Sq. x-fer.
I've used it several times. Please stop whining about this transfer. Others are worse. I refuse to sanction running the useless G along Queens Blvd. because some lazy Greenpointer can't walk a little bit. The people mover even eliminates thiw weak complaint.
you really think so? I've used that transfer a few times already and each times I've seen people actually walk the people mover instead of just stand on it.
I walk on people movers all the time. It's like running without the sweat.
Exactly. I was flying down the corridor. In fact, I have to stop walking prior to stepping off the damn thing or I trip.
They should install one down the corridor connecting the 8th Ave. IND to the Times Sq. complex.
Write to them and ask for it.
yes but the point of it being there is so people DON'T have to walk at all,yet they do it anyway.
Did you read my post? If you walk on a moving platform, you go as fast as when you're jogging without the mover - so you save time without working hard.
Do all of us a favor, would you? It's a little difficult to read your posts.
Suggestion:
First, read carefully what you're responding to.
Second, please use correct punctuation marks and capital letters at the start of your sentences. It helps people understand better what you write.
whatever,i do as i please,i dont need to listen to your nor anyone else.nobody tells me what to do
Then you may find fewer people reading or responding to your posts (or taking you seriously). Is that what you want?
does anyone ever take anyone else seriously on subtalkue?
i havent taken anyone seriously in years. i learn information off this board, and i occasionally post stuff that has a serious ring to it, but it's all a good laugh (or so i feel that way).
aem7
The most serious information is what comes from the NYCTA employees who post here. Then you have the people who don't post their "dream plans" for the subway. Those people are pretty serious. The people who I DON'T take seriously are those who complain all the time, just ask simple and stupid questions, and post all kinds of crazy ideas. I mainly ignore them. But SubTalk is an irreplaceable resource for up-to-the minute news about the NYC subway system. And for those people who keep it that way, thank you very much!
--Brian
Well, I've learned over time wich posters are due greater credence. I've learned a lot on this board too, and have put that knowledge to practical use in my advocacy-related dealing with the TA and local borough governments.
But I have a life off the board, too. Believe it or not.
Yeah, it's fun. Don't take anybody too seriously.
:0)
I've been posting here since 2000[under various names,of course],and also have come to an understanding of the some sort.A ''knucklehead will be a knucklehead'',meaning you are gonna get your subtalk''foamers'' regardless,and it's up to you to respond. I learned that leason [once again]recently with a ''fellow'' poster,and now I FULLY understand. So you live an'learn. My new statement for the day is''It's all Good!''. Thanks.
Are you sure you are 19?
There I thought NYCTA introduced a television train...
Is there really a T train?
AEM7
Is there really a T train?
There certainly WAS!!
Speaking of T Train. I still don't understand why TA never bring back the T Train and use it for South Side Manhattan Bridge Service. Like
B becomee the T
D becomes the W
Orange Q becomes the "Yellow" circle or diamond Q
As in this picture:
Looking at the picture, I can almost smell the steel dust and the sweat and the beach.
Ay yes Steve & Douce Man,
From the arches leading to the Hell Gate to the Beaches of Coney
via the T WestEnd Express.
~Sparky
Is this a redbird before they were red?
This series of car was an IND/BMT car. They were painted red towards the end of their careers in 1993. EXAMPLE
Peace,
ANDEE
Are you sure you are 19?
I'm not gonna even answer that question,you don't believe me? then that's fine,i don't give a damn.believe what 'cha wanna believe,it's not my problem
What are you talking about? Of course you have to capitalize and use proper punctuation! You're not mental, are you?
It may be a case of HPS.
..."yes but the point of it being there is so people DON'T have to walk at all,yet they do it anyway"...
but they are new yawkers, and they dont have to walk on escalators,
but then again, there new yawkers, always in a hurry...
Ron in Bayside, I used his uncapitalized version to respond, think
hell get it.
:|- Sparky
It may be a challenge for him.
uhhh....him? HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU PEOPLE I'M A GIRL!!!!!!! and a very intelligent one too,even though SOMEONE doesn't think so,not mentioning names,but you know who you are.
I was just curious. Even sent you a polite email (which you didn't reply to).
I think you have something valuable to contribute here. I asked you to post more coherently so we could follow your arguments.
Pardon wa,
In the future, now being formally chastised, I will refer to you in
the correct gender. By the way are you a Miss, MS, or Mrs?
;| ) Sparky
There are subway grrls?
DOWN BOY DOWN! :D
V Train, there is a yellow board that conductors keep in the cab in case of an AEM7 sighting:)
Mrs is a scam created by men to oppress women, I just refer to everyone as miss, unless they tell me otherwise (and MIZZ is an even bigger scam for people who are unhappy with their marriage).
O.K., gotcha.
If she doesn't get offended, we'll try and remember that it is ...
Miss Darlene V Train ~ M20. YO K
;| ) Sparky
And whom do you refer to as a HIT?
:0)
Gender SHOULDN'T matter any more than race. I'd hate to think that it matters, we're all subtalkers here (though some get twitchy when asked to admit it) ... just remember that the mighty sphincter muscle is politically correct. Everybody has one and nobody's left out. :)
I'm a Ms. I'm only 19 and not really planning to get married anytime soon
I think people would be moer nietrested in talking to you because you are a girl. It makes sense that you are telling people this, but you don't have to do so in a forceful way. Just get a handle that suggests that you are a girl, like AEM7
and do tell how a handle like AEM7 shows that I'm a girl?
Just putting my 2 cents into this:
Ok, you're a girl. No problem.
I'm sure there are other people in here. Teenagers, senior citizens, Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Native Americans, Arabs, Gay, Straight, Know-it-alls, know nothings and everything else in between.
As long as you can add to the subtalk and bustalk conversations, I really don't want to know about who I'm talking to.
Quite a large body of Brooklyn Techknights.
Thank you Ms Darlene. Welcome to this madness that's male dominated,
but not exclusive.
;| ) Sparky
thats why I'm here so show that it's not completely male dominated.I know girls never have much say in transit,and I wanna change that.
Uh-oh. You ought to join the Women in Transportation Society or something like that. It's called WTS. You might find them on the web. They organize seminars given by distinguished women in transportation all over, they have a New York chapter and a Boston chapter and probably chapters at other places. I have a friend who used to be really involved with this. If you're interested, I can give you her email.
Don't become too feminist. That friend of mine, she's 27 now and still unmarried. Dated the same guy for many years but never got together because she always wanted something in her career and didn't compromise with the guy. You might think it's OK to be alone now, but when you reach the late twenties you would want company.
AEM7
thats why I'm here to show that it's not completely male dominated.I know girls never have much say in transit,and I wanna change that.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU PEOPLE I'M A GIRL!!!!!!!
You actually don't have to tell anyone if you care not to. There are others of your gender, here, who elect not to be identified by their gender - just by their knowledge and opinions.
BTW: Many people take offense to the term, you people.
"and a very intelligent one too"
Without seeming too contentious, by who's assessment and by what standard?
Can someone explain in detail the Court Sq-23rd Ely transfer ie upstairs, downstairs, how far a walk, is the walk a passageway, etc?
Up one flight of stairs. a short walk in the mezzanine towards a corridor. This corridor has 2 moving platforms which whisk you towards the Ely Ave mezzanine. Then another short walk, and down another flight of stairs and your're at the extreme northern end of the E/V platform.
No big deal.
..."No big deal."...
Dependent on your generation. Many Greenpointers are senior in years
and have difficulty manuevering extra transfers, if not required.
My only hope, is that the youngsters in decades from now, will be
more amicable to you when you become a persitent old fuddy dutty.
:| - Sparky
If the elderly can't handle the Court. Sq transfer, they can take the G in the opposite direction to Hoyt St. for an easy cross-platform x-fer to the A train.
>>>D LINE-Have D trains make local stops between 59th Street and 145th Street late nights and weekends when the B Line does not operate.BTW This change can be implemented right now since its only a 2 or 3 min. differnce and no additional trains or crews will be needed <<<
Why?? The A-train already does this late nite and the C on the weekends.
Peace,
ANDEE
Because the B train will be doing this when it resumes operating over the Manhattan Bridge in 2005. It did it for 18 months between 2000 and 2001.
Yes the B did not operate midnight hours so let the D do it
There is a sizeable ridership between 6th Ave and Central Park West
Thank Youi
Manhattan Bridge operations will resume in 2004 if everything stays on schedule.
>>>Manhattan Bridge operations will resume in 2004 if everything stays on schedule. <<<
For purely selfish reasons, I hope that bridge never reopens.
Peace,
ANDEE
it cant and even though you think it can happen,it cant.and i'll tell you exactly why through the lines you mentioned.
A/C:not enough trains to warrent it.there would be a need for extra trains,where would it come from? Mars?
D:TA feels the C being the only local CPW is enough to carry the passenger loads so they'll keep it that way no matter what.
F/V: no way in hell.not enough trains at Jamaica Yard for this.and if its true what I've heard,most R46's are gonna be used to return the G to 6 car trains leaving the F,like the E,mostly R32 dominated.
G: people in Brooklyn along the line would be seriously pissed off if that happened more than they already are,lets not cause a riot.
J:this is the only thing i like.I dont know why the hell the TA doesnt send the J to Broad 24/7.if no one boards at Broad,fine but there will definately be people wanting to board at Fulton because of the major transfer to the other lines.So thats the stupidest mistake the TA has made and i wish they'd change it already.
Q/:it seems the TA likes the circle/diamond express ideas so much thats why we got a 5/<5>,6/<6>,and 7/<7>.if that werent the case i bet those signs on the R62's would've been used ages ago.<5>=10 <6>=8
<7>=11.the T sign doesnt exist on any of the rollsigns on any of the trains in the B division as far as i know so thats why it wont be possible.
and thats about it,i hope you understand now.its great that you came up with this idea,but there are times when things just cant happen and many people fail to realize that.me excluded.
I agree that to implement some of these ideas you will need additional equipment but i totallly diagree with you about the Cental Park West situation.
If the TA believes that the C Line is the only service needed along the 8th Avenue Line between 59th and 145th Street non rush hours then how come the B operates middays and early evenings.
How come the B ran from Stillwell Ave to 145th Street between January and August 2001 when the Manhattan Bridge service changes were made all times except for late night hours ?
There is a market for service between 59th and 145th Street along the 8th Avenue Line to/from 6th Avenue. If not then why did the TA implement the change in 1988?
Thank You
Well....during the weekday yes there is a necessity to run the B with the C throughout the day but not on the weekends.as to why the B ran to 145th during that time period,if you remember correctly,it ran to 21st-Queensbridge during weekends to replace the Q which didnt run during those times,then the construction of the 63rd St Connector started and when it was finished,they had to run trains through there for testing which is why E,F and R trains were rerouted through 63rd St every weekend,mostly the F doing the reroutes.So that means that the B wasnt able to go to Queensbridge anymore so they decided to have it run to 145th St everyday except late nights since they didnt know what else to do with and that seemed the best thing to do.Even then there wasn't a need for 2 locals on the weekends and since they knew that,when 7/22/01 came along, they decided the B would run weekdays only to help the C with the weekday passenger loads and let the C handle the weekend loads since there wouldnt be a problem with 10min headways on the C.To them that was enough.
You make some good points. One minor correction, though:
"if you remember correctly,it ran to 21st-Queensbridge during weekends to replace the Q which didnt run during those times,then the construction of the 63rd St Connector started and when it was finished,they had to run trains through there for testing which is why E,F and R trains were rerouted through 63rd St every weekend,mostly the F doing the reroutes."
The trains were diverted to the 63rd Street tunnel so MTA could shut down the 53rd Street tunnel for repairs.
yes i know,i forgot to add that part.my fault
No sweat.
You are indeed correct on the B rerouting because of the 63rd Street Line was being used by the F due to the construction on the 53rd Street Line.
Please note the following:
1-Back in 1989 NYC Transit was considering routing the B train to Central Park West and to its terminal on 168th Street on weekends but it never implemented the change.(The idea was to operate a Q Shuttle between 21st Street and 2nd Avenue to serve 63rd Street but as i said it never materlizied)
2-When the B and D Lines resume service over the Manhattan Bridge in 2004 and replace the current W and Q lines where is the B going to terminate weekends. True you can run the B to Continental Ave weekends but i doubt that will happen since it is a major differnce in terminals from its weekday operation(Upper Manhattan and the Bronx)and its not really conistent with its overall service plan. I speculate that the B will operate to 145th Street.
3-Another possibility is to operate the B to Continental Avenue all times except midnight hours via 53rd Street and have the V operate weekdays from 145th Street/Bedford Park Blvd to 2nd Avenue. However the problem with this is that both lines will have to switch tracks at 34th Street which i speculate the TA will not like to implement.
Just my opinion and i would like to hear yours
Thank You
There is absolutely no need for B service into Queens.
The MTA can keep the B where it is, serving the Bronx, or it can play around with switching B and C services to reflect an earlier pattern, where the C went to the Bronx. It all depends on rider demand. This has nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge's opening.
Ron,
What i am talking about is when the Bridge is reopened and service resumes to/from Brooklyn what station will be the B Lines northern terminal on weekends?
Yes it does concern the Manhattan Bridge
Thank You
"What i am talking about is when the Bridge is reopened and service resumes to/from Brooklyn what station will be the B Lines northern terminal on weekends? "
Why not the same as it does now?
"Yes it does concern the Manhattan Bridge "
No, it doesn't. The southern terminal changes to Brooklyn; trhe northern terminal is not affected.
Ron,
It does matter and yes it is all connected. Trust me i use to work at Operations Planning
Thank You
Then show us how it is connected. It is not obvious to me, beyond the need for additional subway cars. Since more rolling stock is being delivered, that is being addressed.
Explain this in more detail.
Ron,
If you e mail me your address at BarryLv@netscape.net i will be very glad to explain it too you
Thank You
Barry,
Just click on my handle. My email address is active on Subtalk.
I tried to e mail you Hope you received it.
If not please e mail me
BarryLv@netscape.net
Thank You
I did receive it.
But why not post the answer here, so everyone can read it?
The B currently has no north terminal on weekends, since it doesn't run on weekends.
After 2004, what will serve the West End line on weekends? If the B, it will need to terminate somewhere.
Again, why are the current terminating points when the B runs during the week? What's the big fuss?
You've been saying that whatever north terminal the B has at any given time of the week now, it'll have that same north terminal when the north side of the bridge reopens.
The B currently doesn't run on weekends. It can't have the same north terminal as it does now on weekends unless something else covers the West End on weekends come 2004 (like the W).
I'm at least 95% sure that the B will be back to normal when 2004 rolls around.That means,145th St.-Coney Island all times except rush hours and late nights.rush hours to Bedford Pk,late nights shuttle to 36th St.that other 5% is a very unlikely curveball the TA might throw and change things.but the way I just mentioned is the best and seems like the only one.
If you're at least 95% sure, then you're surer than the TA's planners are.
The exact service pattern you described was in effect for under a year.
and i think it should remain that way.why on earth would they do something different? it'll really be something if they don't stick with that pattern.
I'm wondering where they'll send it midnights if the Stillwell rehab isn't finished first.
It'll probably run to Pacific St, as does the W, until Saturday. With the D and at least one Broadway service running on the bridge, it isn't needed.
this will probably be the service pattern in 2004:
B-145th St-Coney Isl all times except rush hours and nights. To Bedford Park Blvd rush hours. To pacific Street late nights.
D-205th St-Coney Isl all times. (will run to brighton Beach if Coney Island isnt open yet).
Q-57th St-Brighton Beach weekdays.
N-runs over Manhattan Bridge weekends and rush hours only.
Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see. This is "probably" according to whom? Not the TA.
But my point remains that the B service pattern you described was the actual B service pattern only for a few months (modulo Pacific vs. 36th).
I agree. Let's not forget that the Museum of Natural History is at a CPW local stop and is quite busy on weekends.
Is 6 tph (on the C) enough? In a pinch, it is. But seeing as another 12 tph go by on the express track, and those trains are by no means crowded, why not put some on the local track instead? The running time increase is almost negligible; it's more than made up for by the time saved by local passengers, particularly those bound for 6th who now have to transfer at 59th. And at night, why should the local stations get only 3 tph when they could get 6 tph at practically no cost?
The A route is too long for them to send local on weekends would you want to ride the entire A route local?
It would probably be better to run some B trains at 10-15 minute headways on Saturdays and 15-20 minutes on Sundays, (the TA has to save money) to 145 St.
I had the D in mind, not the A. The cost would be six minutes round-trip. That's less than one additional train.
The "car shortage" problem is rapidly disappearing with every new set of R143's being put into passanger service. It's time to really think about service expansion which wasn't possible a couple of years ago.
the R143's are only gonna be on the L and M there for they aren't here for expansion purposes.the R160's will be for old fleet retirements AND expansion purposes.the best the R143's coming in and sending the 40M's and 42's out to CI and where ever else is to prepare the TA for what they gotta think about,which is how service is gonna be once both sides of the Manny B. are opened 24/7.
There will be 212 new R143 cars in service by the end of next year, without a single car being scrapped in their place. That's 212 R40M/R42's which will be available for service elsewhere. That's 16 more cars than the entire current R38 fleet. Already, some ENY R40's have been moved to Coney Island, and many Coney Island R32's are going to Jamaica. This will allow 450' G trains to be used starting next week.
It is the R160 cars which will be used for replacements, with the R38's and slant R40's going first.
yes i am fully aware of that.
Then why did you ask the question if you already knew the answer?
what question? i never asked a question.
Wrong. Every car replaced by an R143 will be assigned elsewhere to provide expanded service. That is the official plan.
well thats about 212 cars,you really think thats enough for any expansion?
There are 10 cars in a full-length train. 212 divided by 10 equals 21 trains, with 2 cars left over.
So in other words, we have 21 additional trains plus a Franklin Shuttle train available.
This is enough to at least equip the L train plus some extra. So the cars leaving the L can go elsewhere -enough to increase service substantially on probably at least 4 other subway lines (like the G, the V, the R etc.)
212 cars is a lot of cars.
Hey Ron, aren't you forgetting that she knows everything and her knowledge of transit is boundless. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
She? V20 is a woman?
>>>...V20 is a woman? <<
From what I've gleened, yes.
And 19 years old at that.
Peace,
ANDEE
yeah and I've said it so many times already,hard to believe not everyone has noticed that.
Sorry. Chicks normally don't hang around here (openly, at least), and your handle doesn't do anything to describe your gender.
Maybe you can change it to "Miss V Train ..."
Why does it matter that she's a girl?
It doesn't. But unless they're hiding behind male handles, women on this board are a rare sight.
the handle no but if you click on it you'll see that the email address is a girl's name,and that isnt my real name by the way.
I like most of these ideas, with 2 exceptions. Extending the V to 179th and running the F express is a bad idea. This was done from 1988-92 and it failed miserably. Community pressure forced the change to current service. Also, changing the diamond Q to "T" is silly. Trains don't have T signs. No real confusion between the two Q routes exists.
Everything else, I like.
'T' is West End BMT ... 'Q' is Brighton BMT and if'n they still
used double letters, we would still have the "GG" along with the
"QQ" and the "RR". Who needs diamonds and circles, bring back the
double letters for the 'B' Division. OK diamonds amd circles for
the 'A' divisions numbered routes.
;| )Sparky
And then there's always the Crayola system...
uhm... No.
You would not want to cut the G for sake of Greenpoint people. This would definetly create a riot. The city is already suffered enough and lets not let our people turn against each other.
Ray Rossi, who currently co-hosts a talk show on New Jersey 101.5 from 2-7 pm weekdays was recently interviewed by "all access.com", a radio trade website. One of the questions:
Q: If you hadn't gone into radio, what would you be doing now?
A: Either baking Italian Bread...since that's the line of work my family was in back in Brooklyn.....or working as a motorman for the New York City Transit Authority.
Mr. Rossi was also heard on "New Country Y-107" before they changed formats, and he was also heard throughout the 80's on Z-100 and WPLJ as "Danny Hernandez" and "Bobby Valentine" respectively. A hell of a nice guy, Mr. Rossi had been heard mentioning "Slant R-40's" on the radio in the past, so I sort of figured he had an interest.
Ray used to be a traffic reporter for Shadow Traffic, which provides the service for WCBS Newsradio-880. Many times when we did "Traffic and Weather Together," we'd each throw in subtle (and not-so-subtle) subway references. My all time favorite was when I mentioned to him live on-the-air that the weather would be great for a Slant R-40 ride over the Manhattan Bridge, and he responded, "Yeah, we'd both be at the Railfan Window!"
By the way, WCBS's long-time staff helicopter traffic reporter Tom Kaminski is also a subway fan, as is afternoon anchor Wayne Cabot. I had Wayne and his family up to Seashore a few summers ago, and they all got a chance to run a trolley.
I always KNEW there was more than one terrific reason to listen to Newsradio 880!!!
An amazingly large number of radio people were once motormen or locomotive engineers. When I left the TA, I went back into radio full time and if I'm not mistaken, Don Imus was once a BLE member. What the correlation is is beyond me, maybe it's those bright blue sparks. :)
Don was a brakie.
Thanks ... wasn't sure (since I really don't care for his schtick) but I do recall him being a trainman of some sort. There's quite a few radio people with backgrounds in trains.
There's quite a few radio people with backgrounds in trains.
Down South Jersey way, Tony Macrie's first job out of high school was night shift at a Philly radio station (technical/electrical stuff), giving him plenty of daylight time to take train photos, of which he has an excellent collection of Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines shots. Today he's president of the Cape May Seashore Lines.
I currenlty work in radio (although not on the air) but I'm a sub buff.
Nice to see RDC's alive and well. Sounds like a nice little line.
Todd correct me if im wrog but we have a few Seashore Members who are active members who are TV and Radio personalities icluding yourself. Stevie
Yes, that's correct Stevie. The host of "Maine's Classical Network, W-BACH" is a fellow Seashore Instructor. We have an active member who's a videographer for the CBS-TV affiliate in Boston, and also a (less active) member who's a traffic reporter for the Boston MetroTraffic operation.
We have an active member who's a videographer for the CBS-TV affiliate in Boston
Is that (or was that) WHDH-TV? Wonder if he knows Ed Chuk ... lemme know off-line, please :)
--Mark
the NBC and CBS affiliates switched channels years ago. NBC is WHDH, CBS is WBZ. -Nick
A nice little line ... I was just there last week!
--mark
The CMSL is getting better and better. I notice that they don't say where the 26-mile excursion on the dinner train goes. Does it just go to the 6H playground and back to Cape May? Where did they get that diesel loco from? How did they get the $ to restore the dining car? I'm surprised that they are maknig $ in this business. It's weird to see a Santa Fe car out east.
AEM7
The CMSL is getting better and better. I notice that they don't say where the 26-mile excursion on the dinner train goes. Does it just go to the 6H playground and back to Cape May? Where did they get that diesel loco from?
The only track on which the CMSL is permitted to haul passengers is their 13-mile excursion track between the 4H Fairgrounds and Cape May City. GP9 #7000 is leased from the URHS; it was the first Geep 9 aquired by the PRR (1955).
canal bridge photo
GP9 pulling a pair of RDC's? (noted that in the bridge pic) ... do they have problems running on their own? Reason I ask is that RDC motors are not that far removed from Chevy engines and once you've dropped them, they're supposedly not all that hard to work on. RDC's used to run on the Hudson line and the old timers would curse them out but loved fixing and maintaining them. Compared to some of the other motive power MNRR was running, they were almost like a day off. :)
I know that the NH disabled the motors on b/o RDCs at one time and hauled them as coaches.
Actually, they should have "dropped out" on their own. I'm not a mechanic myself, but knew some guys that were and they actually ENJOYED working on them and rarely were any motor problems a showstopper for them once they came home to layup. RDC's were pretty hard to kill if metal fatigue didn't get 'em ...
Just to add for giggles, I've OPERATED RDC's in revenue (MNRR with a buddy piloting me) and they're actually a delight. The "stick shift" controller is amusing (and pretty foolproof) and they'd stop like a bus. Pretty simple beasties actually which was what made them so reliable. I was surprised to see a PAIR having to be towed. You lose a motor on a single unit and you usually have another chance to win, with a pair, the odds are "enormity" that you'd still be able to roll. But that was the surprise. Never saw RDC's being "towed" before.
Wish I could recognize a diverging curve before I saw the lower yellow. Heh. I can see that this will take a diverge, so have split it in hopes I've done the right thing before the original thread derails.
I never knew what an RDC was until I moved upstate, but the DESIGN of this 1940's/1950's diesel-powered "bus on rails" can be seen in the R-32's that Budd built for NYCTA. The sides are different from the subway cars but the cab was interestingly similar if the dropdown floor plate wasn't up. Completely diesel powered (with a transmission even) these "busses on steel rails" kept many unprofitable spur lines in operation longer than they would have with traditional motive power and coaches.
When I attended school car, a part of the training was under NYCTA offices on 14th and 8th Avenue in what is now "signal school" (was then as well but the door simulators had been set up there as well for my conductor class since there was a lot of us in our class and Jay Street didn't have enough room) ... I recall seeing some not quite subway cars on one of the signal school training "tracks" in miniature but didn't think much of it at the time (model train layout for TA training - OK) ...
When I moved upstate though, the run from Croton Harmon to Poughkeepsie and back was handled off-peak by a fleet of RDC's and I remember seeing them in the old Mott Haven yards in the Bronx during the Penn Central days hauling cuts of freight cars around. A pretty decent challenge for "locomotives" that had only a pair of appx. 250 HP diesel motors and an automatic transmission as motive power.
First time I got to ride a pair, I was AMUSED at how much they resembled the Mack busses and PCC trolleys in the interior and how much they SOUNDED like a BUS. Especially when they were started. JUST like a BUS. We used to laugh about these being the "bus to Poughkeepsie." I was working in the city still about 3 days a week, so this was a regular ride for me.
Over time, got to know a number of the folks who worked MNRR between the "mighty diesels" and these things and when they found out I had worked for NYCTA, got a few chances to actually operate the things and they were a absolute delight, though quite different from what I had been accustomed to ... the braking was similar enough to R9's with the lapping and all but the controller was strange. A zigzag, serpentined version of a stick shift. And the revving was also just like a bus as the transmission shifted. VERY strange piece of equipment, but comfortable with it pretty quickly.
Here's a spot with some details on RDC's if anyone's interested, I'm PLEASED to see that the folks in Cape May still have some and I just KNOW there's plenty others still running elsewhere. After all, they're BUDD cars. :)
A HREF="http://www.railpage.org.au/comrails/cr_locos/z_cb.html">http://www.railpage.org.au/comrails/cr_locos/z_cb.html
Even have a set of three RDC's which run on my little N gauge desktop railroad along with my "subway" cars ... but the RDC's were a major part of transit and served well ...
Let's try that offsite link again ...
http://www.railpage.org.au/comrails/cr_locos/z_cb.html
much better ...
When I moved upstate though, the run from Croton Harmon to Poughkeepsie and back was handled off-peak by a fleet of RDC's and I remember seeing them in the old Mott Haven yards in the Bronx during the Penn Central days hauling cuts of freight cars around
Do you remember when the Budd SPV-2000s made their debut? I know they were the mainstaw of the Croton - Po'town "shuttle" in the 1980s.
--Mark
Honestly don't remember seeing them at all ... sorry ...
Do you remember when the Budd SPV-2000s made their debut?
Seldom-Powered Vehicles
Well, yes, they were very trouble-prone :)
--Mark
The GP9 was pulling the Budd cars because the chartered trip had been billed as a #7000-hauled trip, since the West Jersey Chapter NRHS had had several previous trips with the RDC's. Three coaches were supposed to be brought in from the URHS, but the coaches' time between wheel/truck overhauls had expired.
Both M-407 (1950) and M-410 (1951) were in operating condition.
Glad to hear that, and in all sincerity I expected that they would be. They were tough railcars to kill. Just seemed mighty weird seeing them being pulled. :)
Just saw on another message board that #7000 left the CMSL yesterday. It was seen moving from Tuckahoe to Winslow Junction.
railroad.net
A gentleman named Kevin Moore, who works for Amtrak, was the program director and P.M. drive guy on WBUX in Doylestown, Pa. a few years back. While he did that during the day, at night he worked at Lincoln Tower in Metuchen.
Maybe when you get up to Unca Todd Glickman's world, radio pays enough but I can tell ya, for most who work radio, you DO need to have a "day job" too. Heh. But over the years, I've known quite a few people in radio who were involved with trains professionally one way or another.
Then there's Mark W. A guy who studied for a career in radio but is a C/R...however, we may still get a chance to hear his voice over the airwaves someday soon...
I'm sure he's gotten to appreciate the enormity of his TA check. I know I did. :)
I'm sure he's gotten to appreciate the enormity of his TA check. I know I did. :)
Why would his TA check be horrendously evil in any way?
"Enormity" meaning "largeness" compared to what radio pays. A TA check is fat city compared to radio pay. Only a handful of radio stations pay well.
Enormity means great evil.
The word your thinking of is Enormousness.
Whoops. Didn't realize. Damn those American Heritage heretics. Until 1996, the usage I used WAS proper.
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/enormity.html
Aw crap ... wrong link ...
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0111.html
I've always thought that enormity meant very large, as in "the enormous turnip". I guess I am the dissenting 41%.
AEM7
Oy, Vey...
Sure Doug.... Spoil the suprise :-) Yes... I will be heard over the airwaves soon....VERY SOON! No more button pushing for me!
Details to come......
-Mark
I can picture it now... Ron Lundy, Dan Daniel, Bob Shannon, Cousin Brucie, Harry Harrison, Mark W?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Uhh... Nevermind....
Wire reports now say that Amtrak and the Capital District Trans. Authority have reached a deal for the Rensselaer rail station.
Highlights are
-the deal is a 50 year lease
-Amtrak must pay a $50,000 annual occupancy fee. Amtrak's annual operating cost for the station is estimated at $430,000.
-Amtrak will take up about one-third of the space in the station. It will also be responsible for much of the maintenance, security and utilities.
By the way, the station is reported by Amtrak to be it's 10th busiest station in the US.
What's the busiest?
Mark
I GUESS that New York Penn Station is the busiest. The last time I checked (a long time ago), New Carrollton, MD was in the top 10.
Michael
Washington, DC
According to Amtrak's website, the 10 busiest stations in 2001 (toal boardings and alightings) were:
1 New York, NY 8,589,534
2 Philadelphia, PA 3,764,734
3 Washington, DC 3,518,423
4 Chicago, IL 2,152,241
5 Newark, NJ 1,430,144
6 Trenton, NJ 1,013,138
7 Boston, MA 989,749
8 Los Angeles 984,870
9 Princeton Junction, NJ 915,396
10 Baltimore, MD 879,136
Don't know how Albany managed to wiggle themselves in with a claim of #10, but there are lots of ways to count people.
CG
>>> but there are lots of ways to count people. <<<
I wonder if those are figures for Amtrak only, or include commuter rail which shares some of the stations. And do the Amtrak boardings include their buses as well as trains? A lot of the boardings in Los Angeles are for connecting buses to Bakersfield to catch the train there.
Tom
I don't think the number includes all commuter rail. Certainly not in New York, but perhaps where Amtrak operates the commuter lines.
LIRR handles 290,000 riders each weekday, or about 75.4 million per year (weekdays 290K x 52 x 5). Somewhere near half of those are probably Penn Station passengers, which would dwarf the Amtrak 8.6 million riders number.
I suspect that you may be right about L.A. It doesn't seem likely that the number of train passengers there is about the same as in Boston (and who knows whether that Boston number is for South Station or all three area stations).
That's great news. The last thing that rail service needs is useless squabbling.
Wow ... that's an IMPRESSIVE shakedown, even for Joey Bruno ... well, one down, now the shakedown for a SARATOGA station begins in earnest. :)
By the way, just noticed something interesting about the train station. "ALBANY" has been completely removed and apparently Amtrak must remove the word "Albany" from the tickets and schedules as well. The stop is now called ONLY "Rensselaer" ... so I would imagine the state capitol will need to move. :)
"The stop is now called ONLY "Rensselaer""
That should be interesting:
Passenger: "Round trip to Albany please."
Ticket agent: "Sorry, Amtrak doesn't serve Albany."
And it deteriorates from there. Before you know it, Rensselaer is only the 20th busiest Amtrak station.
I'm looking forward to this also. One of the things being discussed in CDTA land is actually BUILDING an "Albany" station that's actually *in* Albany. Never a dull moment where the politicos gather. :)
So what is the station code for it now? A stations code of ALB makes no sense for a station named Rensselaer. Removing Albany from the name is really dumb, unless they do some kind of promotion to make sure people realize the "Rensselaer" station still serves Albany as well. The Amtrak website still lists the station as Albany-Rensselaer; you would think this would be the easiest/ quickest change to be made if they were changing the station name.
-Josh
I have no idea what the plan is, and tomorrow's TimesUnion (web site is being changed now as I type) doesn't have any lead as to what's going to happen as yet. But politicos on THIS side of the river are less than pleased, and that's where I heard this little morsel from.
As it turns out though, after all the pressure on Amtrak, the station isn't ready to open ANYWAY ... this was all about reducing the heat on Senator Joey for election day and yet the station CONTINUES to be the gift that keeps on giving. Heh.
As soon as I hear anything, will let y'all know. I would imagine Amtrak will come up with something to indicate that Albany is in Rensselaer or perhaps they can just heave passengers off the train platforms as it blows through Albany on its way to Schenectady. :)
Does anyone out there have any idea to whom I might write to or call up to request once and for all a TVM at the BAYSIDE station on the Port Washington line of the LIRR?..any help would be greaterly appreciated....and by all the commuter that use that station.....
Call LIRR Public Affairs: 718-558-8228
On a site devoted to the real Superman, George Reeves, there's a page devoted to the IND R1/9 trains used in one episode.
Here's the home page:
http://www.jimnolt.com/
Here's the page about the episode in question "Shot in the Dark." One of the pictures on this page is of the train from the episode.
http://www.jimnolt.com/shotindark.htm
And here's the page about the trains used in the episode:
http://www.jimnolt.com/trains.htm
The author of this last page, Bobby Ryan mentions, "a friend of mine, Donald Harold...."
Is this the episode where the motorman on the local train is knocked out and it is set to try to smash into Jimmy Olsen on the express?
As I recall, Superman then splits the third rail with his bare hands to stop the train.
THAT'S the one.
Peace,
ANDEE
From the episode:
"Burt Burnside, alias "The Tulip."
??? :)
THANKS for posting that! :)
That picture of the AA train looks a lot like the same stock footage used in the "Loving Cup" episode on I Love Lucy. The R-1/9s which appear there were also part of an AA train.
The Transit Authority had a good amount of "stock footage" available for motion picture and television producers to use so they'd stay the hell out of the subway. :)
When the "B movie" makers hit their stride in the 50's, the "tripod restriction" came into play and photography by commercial interests in the subway was nearly prohibited and tightly controlled. That's why in movies like "The Incident" the photography of the third avenue el was from rooftops along the route and in other movies, rarely past fare control.
But that stock footage was pretty handy for TV shows and such since all it involved was putting a print on a plane and no expenses for "location shooting" on the other coast for the LA outfits.
Speaking of The Incident, the producers resorted to being sneaky to get their subway footage. They concealed their cameras in bags or boxes, and the cops got suspicious when they heard a whirring sound. The TA did not grant permission to film on their property. Since they paid their fare, the producers weren't technically trespassing; however, thsy could still be in hot water because they were filming without a permit.
While the Lucy subway episode was good and well thought out, the editing was a bit awkward in spots.
Not surprised actually. BoT and the NYCTA were EXTREMELY anal about filming and the city in general was SO hostile to motion picture "filming" in NYC that Mayor Lindsay had to create a "Mayor's office of film, theatre and television" in order to make it even REMOTELY possible for a "film crew" to throw sticks up and mount a camera on them anywhere in the city.
For NYC scenes, it was necessary to do things like that for the longest time. Or use stock footage if you could buy it. Recently, all you had to do was show Rudy that he had a line in the script, and you were IN. :)
I wonder how much the producers of The Wrong Man had to fork over to have Henry Fonda ride the R-1/9s.
They paid through the NOSE if it was real. Assuming of course, that they didn't just have IATSE and the Carpenter's union just CUT one out in Hollyweird. Since it was done in 1956, I'd assume that the transit police had orders to "shoot to maim" if a tripod was dropped on a REAL subway car. :)
The subway footage is the real McCoy. You can even see the conductor between the first and second cars as Fonda gets off at Roosevelt Ave. That was when they ran 11-car E and F trains, although that train didn't appear to be anywhere near the end of the station. IIRC the second car was R-4 494.
Musta had a BUDGET. :)
Now I'm confused. I always thought Superman was filmed in Metropolis.
It's SET in Metropolis. The 1950s TV series used Los Angeles as a backdrop; the movies with Christopher Reeve had a New York flavor. The Lois and Clark TV series hinted at Chicago.
For those interested in an R142 update, Units #6801-6804 are now in New York City. I saw them this morning at 11:00 at NYA's Fresh Pond Yard...still wrapped in plastic.
Chris
Wow it took a long time to come
Don't you mean R143's??
Don't you mean R143's??
No, they were definetely R142's (three doorways on each side).
No hes right. The R142s are delivered by freight through FP Yard. The R142a and R143s are delivered by flatbed truck from Yonkers.
Is there ANYTHING in Paoli worth terrorizing? So far, ALL terrorist attacks have occured in NEW YORK CITY with the exception of a SMALL handful of other "attacks" in and around D.C. So where's everybody flipping out? Atlanta, doomtown and the tri-color area. Remember West Nile? Didn't matter when people in Queens and Staten Island died. By gum, now that it's deep in the heart of them Red states, NOW it matters. Has everyone lost their frigging MINDS?
Please note, for security purposes, no photography of SelkirkTMO is permitted. Embargo enforced by Howitzer administered by a secret controller stand in the basement. Sheesh.
This is for anyone who does maintenance on trains around these parts, or those who know about it.
This afternoon, I was waiting for a 7 at Broadway/71st on the Flushing side. On the Manhattan side, I happen to notice a piece of wood being used to suspend the shoe of one of the sides of 9318! Is this a temporary thing or what? Why wood?
Wood doesn't conduct electricity, so it can be used on the third rail shoe in an emergency. Now whether or not the train should have left the yard like that is another story.
Aren't some rail cars fitted with wooden shoe beams, which treated with a fire-proofing liquid?
Now that I think about it, weren't the dual-mode locomotives fitted with wooden shoe beams?
I personally am tired of reading about vegetable oil, McDonald's, Joe Bruno (much as I dislike him too), and why certain posters are immature (even when it's true).
Maybe this will raise some interest (and then again maybe not):
Suppose the powers that be are allowed to use federal money to build an LIRR supersubway connection from Jamaicia to lower Manhattan (i.e., making the LIRR tracks into subway tracks and extending into downtown),
BUT:
There is no budget for a new East River tunnel. Existing tubes must be used.
How can this be done for the least bucks without screwing existing Brooklyn and Queens subway riders?
(And saying it's not needed would be a digression from this thread too.)
I'd think about extending the ESA project south of GCT to the financial district. That's perfectly within your stated bounds because ESA is approved and funded and the river tunnel is already there and being extended as we speak.
Story:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Train-Collision.html
Coming soon to an L near you - WD's and blind trips. And yet train operators are open competitive. Yeah, that oughta solve it. :)
(once again, no offense to those hired, this is a philosophical thing to me)
I fail to see how promotion within an organization per se guarantees better performance. A CAREFUL screening/hiring process AND serious intelligent training shoud be sufficient. As a parallel ecample, it seems to me that a person with electrical equipment repair experience in an entirely unrelated field who scored higher than a station agent with ten years in the system, is more likely to learn car repair faster. Years ago a chap showed up at a UCal computer det looking for work. No he had never done any programming but WAS a Chess Master. He was hired and performd well for many years in the era of mainframes. The inability of an organization to hire clearly competent individuls because they haven't had "tickets" roperly punched is destructive in the long run.
(The inability of an organization to hire clearly competent individuls because they haven't had "tickets" roperly punched is destructive in the long run.)
You've just described the civil service system. Or would have if you had added the inability to fire clearly incompetent and indifferent employeees because they HAVE had their tickets properly punched. On the other hand, how to replace it and not have managers just pressured to hire the relatives and supporters of politicians in another matter.
as the son of a Federal Civil Servant (29+yrs at the Army Map Service, Corps of Engineers) I have certainly heard the tales of woe as well as watched the painful exercise of filling out the forms "behhing" for the 'in grade' raises to gain enough money to feed the household. Much of the craziness resulted from my father's naturalizd citizen status and lack of US education 'tickets'. Some of this may well be why I work for the $#^*(_)&$$ in the mirror. While I do not wish to see public transit privatised, I am dismayed by the current style.
This hould end the rebuilding debates...
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/16159p-15308c.html
I don't know ... the Comptroller (and the rest of the administration) has an interest in making the economic losses appear as big as possible. No doubt a large dose of speculation and conjecture went into the report. Maybe the amounts are correct, but I'd be very interested in seeing what an unbiased, outside evaluation would come up with.
The amounts are real ... I saw the numbers from a friend in the NYS Division of the Budget. For now, with an election looming, Paturkey's been pumping up the deficit faster than you can say "tax cut" but once the election's over and the axe swinging begins in earnest, the powerpoint slides for budget school in January will be using those numbers. World of hurt is an understatement, and were it not for this being an election year, we would have saved a few of those billions by now in NOT building a few train stations, monument ball parks and other trashings of the state till.
But it REALLY IS that bad ...
The amounts are real ... I saw the numbers from a friend in the NYS Division of the Budget.
The damage done to the city's economy by 9/11 is a tiny fraction of the damage done to the city's economy by 1199.
Ooh - low cut (well below the belt). Bu I'm no fan of 1199...
I used to work for 1199. I worked 4 hours and they paid me for 6.
They also gave people 6-hour pay to go to the farewell party at the Roseland.
This was a private hospital where I worked though, but I'm sure they were screwing the city somehow.
A cool thing about this program was that I was the only white person there. It took me a week to actually notice that.
Won't argue there, and 1199 has invaded upstate as well. It'd be OK if the money actually went to the underpaid WORKERS. But of course, that ain't the game. Never was. But it bought votes for the Paturkey. Imagine if Paturkey WASN'T already popular? If you've got to blow THAT big a wad when you're popular, how much would he have been willing to pay if he wasn't???
You can count numbers anyway you like and justify any numbers large or small as suits your needs.
They mean nothing.
BUT: I've been thinkng.... and I think that more real damage was done to our country by the people at Enron, World Com and Arthur Anderson than by Bin Laden and his followers.
Elias
Umm...just to keep Atlanta's pride, we have over 93 million sq. ft. of office space, not 13 million, which makes it the fifth largest in the country. However, downtown by itself has 15 million.
when i was little in the late 70's early 80's i remember some kind of ad in the stations of the back then LL train. It had drawings or pics of subway cars one after another. but i dont remember what the ad was for or what the ad said at all. Does anyone at all remember this ad and or have a pic of it
In 1979, the NYC subway had its 75th anniversary. NYCT(A) had a poster on station walls depicting various events in the system's history. The poster was red, with black and white photos. Could that be it?
David
I had three of them, sold the first two on e-bay. The third one is coming up in October.
hmmmm no i remember it had drawings or actual pictures of different car types used in that time and they were all in color though
The "Diamond Jubilee: 75 Years of People Moving People" poster called "1904 - 1979: 75th Anniversary of the NYC Subway" ... hanging prominently in my office right now :)
Might you be lookng for the poster called "Catch all The Trains You Missed" with a drwaing of (IIRC) an R-1/9, a Standard and a Triplex?
--Mark
If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was sketch artist's conception of "All the trains you missed" advertisement for the Transit Museum.
The ad was for the Diamond Jubilee. The top car was the 1904 Gibbs car, 1914 BMT Standard, 1916 Lo-V, 1932 R1, 1938 World's Fair, 1948 R10, 1950 R15, 1963 R33 World's Fair, 1964 R32, 1968 R40, and the bottom car was the 1975 R46. Artist was George Gersninowitz.
A copy exist in my house.
Oh, *that* poster .... I'm looking at that one, too :)
--Mark
ohh u have it!!! lol
do u have a pic of it or an extra one lolol
Sorry .... don't have either ....
--mark
http://members.aol.com/philiphom/diamond.jpg
Here is your ad.
http://members.aol.com/philiphom/diamond.jpg
Here's a hypothetical:
A passenger is playing music, with or without headphones, which is audible to everybody else in the car. Would it be rude of everybody else to get up and dance to said music? (As long as we all have to put up with it, we might as well enjoy it, no?)
I take it Spock's solution to the punk playing the radio on the bus in the film "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home" would not be an option, then? :)
Might be. Remember, after Spock nerve pinches the punk, the whole bus applauds.
Trivia Q: What was the name of the song playing on the punk's boombox when Spock pinched him?
Best part of the whole movie in my book. :)
Kevin, I think you are talking about the save-the-whales Star Trek. That was my all time favorite Star Trek. It showed that Kirk actually had a humorous side.
Catherine Hicks looked pretty good in that movie too!
That's the one. LOVED the way Spock handled things. He should have gone out for school car. Heh.
It was just so good to finally see the "crew" in present-day surroundings!
I have the tape, and will dig it out and watch it tomorrow night!
Definitely one of the better ones. Give my regards to Catherine Hicks too. :)
Subway Etiquette is an oxymoron
LMAO....wish I had thought of that first!! :-)
Kick his ass and steal his boom box - that's NYC etiquette.
depends on what kind of jam he / her is playing !!
now if its some good jazz coltraine or miles davis let it rock !!
heat eat live live & enjoy !!
he he he he ....................lol !
No, but if the dancing is horrendous, it
CAN hence be considered rude to the tunes.
:)
Are we to assume one is skilled enough to dance while the train is accelerating, decelerating, and going around curves? If so, by all means! That's be a feat of skill worth seeing.
Breaking into song might be an easier option for people like myself who ain't so coordinated.
Mark
Ride the subway for 8 hours a day like most conductors, and you find it's "LAND legs" that you have trouble with. :)
Forget the dancing, how about the fact that it is rude and against subway regulations to play radios w/o headphones? -Nick
Yesterday, the receipt I got from the farecard machine still had the old slogan at the bottom, reading "The Future is Riding on Metro". I find that "Metro Opens Doors" is a pretty lousy slogan to begin with, especially for printing on things.
Today, on board Breda 3130 (I think, my notes are upstairs), a watch started beeping when we got to Bethesda. The operator opened the door, asked the passenger if they had slept enough, and asked me to vacate the railfan seat so she could sit there. It appeared they knew each other from off of the train. I did so, it wasn't like the train was really crowded. He closed up and as soon as the train started itself (ATO, remember), he kept the cab door open and chatted with her all the way to the next station, where she got off and I reassumed my position at the front. Now, I have seen WMATA operators chat with coworkers in the cab in the past, but the operator sits at the console and can take over the train in a timely manner from the computers if he has to. But while chatting with passengers for a long period of time, it is not possible. I have had operators open the door to say hello to me as the train leaves the station, but we don't converse at length while the train is in motion. If we do, it is when the train is stopped at the station and I get out and we talk through the window before the operator closes down.
You're making a big deal out of nothing. Granted, the operator has some monitoring to do, not to mentio look out the window for track jumpers etc. But the operator has less to do on that train than I would driving a car - and there's nothing wrong with my talking to a front-seat passenger.
Find something else to worry about.
I was just saying and I am well aware of the situation. I just thought it was interesting, especially in the wake of the CTA derailments report. I did not feel usafe at any point during the whole trip.
Would it ever be possible to make the subways or commuter rail just like that JetBlue ad? A good place to give out blankets, Pillows , and blue potato chips would be on MNRR express trains. Subways could be made more enjoyable by having cute blonde subway attendants tuck sleeping patrons in, and give boombox people headphones. Is this a pipe dream? Does anyone else have this pipe dream? What do you think about its feasablility?
All thoughts welcome!
"Ummm ... Mr. Conductor? My crackpipe seems to have gone out. Tiene phosphoro, por favor?" I know ... you're just testing to see if this thing's on. :)
How about commuter rail? Lowlives don't go there.
"Lowlifes" are as likely to ride commuter rail as they are the subway - they just dress more nicely and have a cigarette case for their cocaine.
Your comment was both ignorant and offensive.
Sorry. SorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorrySorry!
Lowlifes are all over the place on the Oyster Bay branch!
... and lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Peace,
ANDEE
Certain LIRR trains have bar cars.
Most commuter trains are too crowded to afford a lot of space for that, and not enough people ride long enough to sit in a cafe car.
Ok, the system could work like this: If you get on a train ( MNRR express) and have a ticket to GCT, the C/R hands you a blanket, pillow, and a bottle of orange Juice during the AM rush.
And how expensive should your ticket be?
3 dollar surcharge.
For that? You know how much it would cost to clean the blankets, pillows, and to provide all the juice?
Ok, so this wouldn't work out. Oh well, at least it was a cool commercial.
If the subway was subsidized as much as PATH, it would be free.
I thought the LIRR did away with bar cars.
Peace,
ANDEE
The BMT tried with its Bluebird - mohair upholstered seats and mirrors -
lol !!
yea rock baby !!
Would it ever be possible to make the subways or commuter rail just like that JetBlue ad? A good place to give out blankets, Pillows , and blue potato chips would be on MNRR express trains. Subways could be made more enjoyable by having cute blonde subway attendants tuck sleeping patrons in, and give boombox people headphones.
Every one of JetBlue's aircraft has a name with "Blue" in it, e.g. Blue Velvet, Love is Blue, etc. It hasn't been too hard to come up with these names because B6 only has about 30 Airbuses (Airbii?) in its fleet. Now, if you wanted to follow the theme and give cutesy names to every subway car, you'd need 6,000+ names!
Names could work on commuter trains, since there's fewer of them.
Ah hell no, I will never ride Jetblue, damn all Airtaxi airline! They need to go out and get some real airplanes, not some Eurotrash imitation of a real plane. Now if they were to dump the damn A320-somethings and go with some brand new Boeing 737-600/700/800s, then we could talk, but until then, I will never ever fly JetBlue.
I am sure they will miss my business and eventually start negotiations with Boeing!
BTW: Flyerlover, several Metra engines in chicago are named for important people from Illinois , and Towns that Metra serves.
Aren't some PATH cars named for towns in north Jersey?
Mark
Aren't some PATH cars named for towns in north Jersey?
Correct. I also believe that a few are named after towns in Rockland and Orange counties of New York State, as commuters from those places use PATH from Hoboken.
That commercial is laughable.
The ad is just propaganda to illustrate that subway and rail transit is not up to par with Jetblue's standard. Damn air bastards...
This went down a long whiles ago, but I don't recall ever seeing it posted about here.
http://www.complacent.org/thought/blue_frame.html
(this post was partially inspired by the 'etiquette' thread - while the signs say you can't play a radio in the subday, they don't say much about marching bands...)
Are you allow to BBQ on the subway, or only out in the open? It does not state anywhere.
That would be good. Save time spent on dinner eating on the ride home... maybe they oughta make a few 'bar cars' out of them old redbirds like what CDOT has got going on the new haven line?
Great. That means Heypaul will bring out his gas grill.:)
I was talking with some friends of mine who were in town over the weekend, and they were telling me about how Septa is installing a cab signalling system in the streetcar subway. There are still a few things I don't understand though:
- Why are they installing it in the first place? I don't recall ever hearing about any deficiencies with the present signalling system inuse.
- Who is paying for it? And why, given that it doesn't appear to be a matter of necessity.
- What sort of speed and stop enforcement will there be? Also, what kind of display will be presented to the driver on the streetcar's control console? Additionally, how will it integrate with the streetcar's existing systems and how will transitions from street running to cab signalled tunnel be made?
- Will the PCCs being rebuilt for the Gerrard Ave. line have the necessary equipment installed so that any streetcar can be used on any line?
Any other technical information on how the whole thing will work would also be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Robert A. King
Rob,
Here are some of what you are looking for:
- Why are they installing it in the first place? I don't recall ever hearing about any deficiencies with the present signalling system in use.
The system is being installed to replace the current system, which basically dates from the forties. It will be a "floating block" system.
- Who is paying for it? And why, given that it doesn't appear to be a matter of necessity.
It's a settlement for the problems with AdTranz with the M4's. Cost is in the $23M area.
- What sort of speed and stop enforcement will there be? Also, what kind of display will be presented to the driver on the streetcar's control console? Additionally, how will it integrate
with the streetcar's existing systems and how will transitions from street running to cab signalled tunnel be made?
Not sure. There may be info available from SEPTA. It will only function in the subway, street running will be good old fashioned streetcar.
- Will the PCCs being rebuilt for the Gerrard Ave. line have the necessary equipment installed so that any streetcar can be used on any line?
Don't think so, but that may change. Also unknown is whether the "historic" PCC's and 8534 will be equipped with the system. One would think they would be, but we are speaking about SEPTA.
Note: Spelling of the 15 Line's street is Girard, not like in Toronto.
The rebuilt PCC's will probably be dedicated to Girard Ave (route 15), but at least one proposal was suggested to rebuild more than the 18 needed to hold down the 15 line. If another 6 could be included in the program, the thought was that these would offer some spares to be used in subway-surface service especially since the car requirements are so tight now and just about anything that can be placed in service is there in the peak hour.
Additionally, the 15's cars will be 'temporarily' housed at Callowhill (until the replacement West Phila facility is sited and built). There will be space for a handful of K cars for route 10 service, which will permit better service on 10 and a greatly reduced pull-in/pull-out (since the cars now must come in/return to Elmwood, although they frequently do this as 36's so they are providing some service). Thus the 'mixed' fleet of K's and PCC's at Callowhill would enable some PCC's to provide 10 service if needed.
And Im sorry if this bothers anyone. I just want to get this right
Im just anal about this stuff. It comes out on the Preview so I guess its fine.
Anthony
IT WORKED!!!
but what is the QX doin there
The (don't call it QX) was probably headed for layup at Coney Island.
No it was in service.
Probably extended to cover a gap in Q circle service.
Photo was taken 7.3.02. at 6:31 PM
The NEW map is different from the current map:
1, the new map has the 1993-1998 route descriptions, based on the time of day, although in the current place
2, airports are yellow, and have a plane symbol on them
3, land is darker
4, water colored like 1979-1986 maps
5, new font saying the boroughs
will this come with stripmaps on the back??????????
and where did you see this new map?
I saw one this AM on a D train.
Peace,
ANDEE
1, the new map has the 1993-1998 route descriptions, based on the time of day, although in the current place
You mean in chart form, correct? If so, good. That way is much easier to quickly glance to see what lines operate at a particular time. Better than what they had in 1999 and 2001, the last times I was up there, where you had to read each line description individually.
Yeah, it was a lot more woody and hard to follow as well. I'm glad they went back to the table format.
I just saw it myself, on the D line today, excellent map, also if you really paid attention, at the cloest point where the 2/5 lines and 6 are, they really show that they are within walking distance, with the old fashioned design mixed in with the new map look, its a very, informative map. I cant wait to get my hands on 1
That's awesome! I can't wait to come into the city and get one...or two or three... :)
--Brian
I saw the new map today on a R142#5 train. There is a mistake on the map. It shows the 2 being a 24/7 express in Manhattan.
The map doesn't reflect late night service patterns -- hasn't for at least ten years.
Or do you mean the service guide doesn't mention that it runs local at night? Whoops.
Yes, I was talking about the colorful service guide. It states that the 2 is 24/7 express in the city.
I read this story some time ago and I wanted to share it with everyone. Okay, this took place somewhere in the 1950s in Pennsylvania during a heavy snowstorm. After a train of empty coal cars kerclack kerclacked through town on the Harrisburg main line, a lone GG-1 with a string of coaches rolled silenty to a stop in front of the station. (can't recall the name) The engineer and the conductor got out and they were scratching their heads. The coaches have power, the blowers were working, but she just will not go. So the coductor went inside the station to call the tower, at which time the signal blinked red.
In an attempt to get the stricken locomotive moving, the engineer reached for a pole underneath the GG-1 and nudged the second pantograph up to contact the overhead catenary. Meanwhile, the conductor came back and reported that the same thing was happening to GG-1s everywhere. Then the signal suddenly blinked yellow. The tower did that in case the GG-1 gave up on being a mule, reported the conductor. After waiting a few minutes, the engineer asked if he should try it again. The conductor, half amused, said highball! So the engineer moved the 22 notch controller a few increments then yelled back "hey, she wants to move". The conductor climbed aboard, the GG-1 sprang to life and off they went.
Later, the gravity of the problem came to light. The very fine snow had somehow gotten into the air intakes and filtered down to the traction motors, causing a short circuit. The time that the train spent in the station allowed the water to evaporate, allowing the motors to take power. But the GG-1 fleet required major repairs including modification to the intake grills. I thought it was an interesting story.
Interesting indeed.
signal...red...???
PRR used position signals no color AFAIK
signal...red...??? PRR used position signals no color AFAIK
Might have meant that it was indicating 'stop and stay', which people sometimes call 'red'. Or, it was an indication someone saw on the power board. IIRC, red was a short/popped breaker, and some types will try to close after the short clears...
Starting in the mid 50's, the PRR replaced the typical amber A-A-A indication with a R---R indication for home signals. It was for added umph at interlockings.
NY1 has the story..
MTA people saved a lot of lives. Bus drivers pulled people out of the area. Trains took people out of Manhattan. Work crews helped attack the mess at "Ground Zero."
I'm glad they've prepared this film. I hope a lot of people get to see it.
Is there any hope of seeing this documentary outside of the city? I'd much rather watch that than most of the so-called "victim specials" the networks are planning for next Wednesday ...
Woah...I wonder if my friend who works in the Amex building was on that particular bus. She was arriving to an early morning meeting when the first plane hit, and then was outside across the street when the second plane went in. An off-duty bus took her and several co-workers out of the area. -Nick
A man riding along the ROW in Norwood Mass was thrown from his dirtbike and went under the commuter rail train. The person survived and was flown by med evac helio to the Boston City Hospital.
Stupid Human Trick, No. 234,589
I think you're missing a few zeroes on the end of that number
The headline should be "MBTA Train Hits Tresspasser"
But what would be new? MBTA trains hits trespassers all the time. The novelty value is in the fact that the trespasser was traspassing on his/her bike, rather than other implements such as shoes, bungee ropes, or horse.
It would show who is at fault, the tresspasser.
(see Operation Lifesaver)
I know I drive readers crazy with conflicting info....all has been dependent upon Bombardiers efforts to provide working R142 trainsets....and I can say firsthand that the yard has been buzzing with modifications....but we were told today that we must keep the Redbirds flying on the #5 so you foamers still have a chance to ride em in Manhattan. Weeks heavy lift barge is gone once again from 207th and the reefing is once again suspended.
Yay! Thank you!
--Brian
Gotta be kidding! Redbirds we're getting are wrecks...I do not want any part of inspection procedures because everything is so scrutinized down to the last cleaning of door closer mechanisms...I would rather walk the seperated ten car trainset ten times and pick up every 'troubles' to repair for the whole day and collapse upon the floor before I get called in to fix one stupid thing I missed during inspection. Fluoresent bulbs, inverter balasts, door rubbers, portion pins, J14 brake valves, carbody hoses, brake slack adjusters,
HVAC, glass windows and TA maps, car emergency valves, stuck brake cylinders.......anything to keep me busy but the inspection repairs of trainsets destined for 'Neptunes Fleet.' CI Peter
Ya' Gotta Believe!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
Hope anyone doesn't fall out of those big, gaping holes!
Thank God! Stop Redbird cruelty. Save the Redbirds!!!!
There was an el on Third Avenue?
j/k
Anyway, according to this map, the Third Avenue el used only one track to get through 129th Street in BOTH directions?
Sure looks that way, doesn't it?
But that can't be right. I've got a map somewhere which should clear that up, but it's kind of late to try hunting for it. If noone else answers first, I'll find it tomorrow and post an answer.
Paul,
When you do have time to look for it, please let me know and I'll correct it as soon as I can.
Thanks,
Michael Calcagno
Hi Mike,
The below is the last layout through the station. I derrived this from the 1954 feeder diagram of the station.
Far as I can tell, the earlier layour (when 129 was still used as a station) had Track A as the northbound thru track, and Track 2 next to it was connected east of the station by a manual (non-tower-controlled) switch.
The red track(s) are upper level and ran above rather than next to the station.
So in the later years northbound trains did not stop at 129th?
That's one to ask Joe Frank. By the map it sure doesn't look like it.
Ihave the maps from the ERA too, and there is a missing crossover from the third track (from the top of 129th Street station).
There is a small error in that map. The third station track
from the top under the words 129St Terminal had an additional
crossover to the second track from the top.
Can you post or email me on what the T/O job is like and what's it like being a T/O? You posted it before but i lost the info. Any info would greatly be appreciated.
The one thing I would like is to be rated as T/O and retain my position as Car Inspector. I could inpect my trainsets, do repairs and take em out for test runs. All I can do now is bump the cars under supervision in the shop.
When you receive acceptance as a T/O, you go to school...PS 248 in Coney Island. You learn from class instruction, you get moving experience in the yards, you go on school cars on the routes for 'hands on' and eventually you get your first assignment (pick.)
Once you're in the system, you are at the bottom of the seniority list and your choices for hours/days/shifts/days off are pretty stinky. New T/Os are garuanteed a full week but you have to love the work...shifts and locations will change as you fill in for absent/vacationing T/Os. The training can last six months.
Hope I got this right.....T/Os will bust my chops! There are less than twelve RCIs/CIs qualified as T/Os. CI Peter
Just wanted to put my two cents in.
Being a T/O sucks at first. You start out on the extra list. I never know where I'll be from day to day.
One day I'm on the 4, next day I'm on the "board", which means I'll go to a location and wait for someone to call in sick, and I'll then take that job for the day. I can't begin to tell you how much I hate the 4 line. On average, you work 9 1/2 hours, and the food at the terminals sucks. To make things worse, everything on the 4 is three trips. And if you start late enough, the last trip is to New Lots, local!
One day I'll start work at 2pm and finish at 10, and the next day I'll start at 5 and finish at 2am. And if I'm on the 4 line, I'll start at 3 and finish at 1am because track gangs and GO's will cause delays on my last trip.
I live in Queens, and they put me in the A division and I hate it with a passion. But when all is said and done, I make good money, have great job security, work with good people, and will one day transfer to the B division so I'll be closer to home.
But who knows, maybe I'll get more work out of New Lots and Main St when things go back to normal next pick.
The page you want is here http://home.att.net/~alabianca/Welcome.html
A couple of points. PM actually goes to 1959, and Midnights begins 2000. But not that many jobs begin between 1930 and 2230.
He should also point out that when you first pick, if you are close to the bottom, you may be left with OPTO VR. This seems to be the last stuff picked now. I chose it over a Queens RDO relief job that included the G on Sunday. I had to go OPTO anyway, at least I won't have the G every week. (Now that I've been qualified, they gave it to me this past Mon.; still extra extra, anyway)
You shouls describe the bidding process, because I had ni idea how it worked. Also, this is even less orderly than extra extra. They kept me AM from the beginnig, and moved me from TW to SS right before Christmas (So I didn't have Christmas, but they left me with Sat./Sun), but now it definitely will change every week, because what i get is based on what I bid for, or what's left over if the 72 choices I get are all taken (it's a lot to go through all those jobs and screen out what i don't want, and place them all in order of preference. (Homework, ala school!) It paid off as I got stuff high on my list for the first 2 weeks, including the M OPTO with the 143's This Sun, on it's first day!) If there aren't enough jobs, you are extra.
> PM actually goes to 1959, and Midnights begins 2000
I don't think so!!!
The time between 2000 and 2200 is a grey area as far as the crew office goes. If it's a permanent pick job, then it'll be considered a PM pick job for PM crews. If it's a temporary job (600's or 900's), then the crew office normally assigns midnight crews to the job. Next time if you get a chance to view the assignment sheets, you could see a job on the payroll listed as 401, but on the supplement the same 401 crew would be known as 602.
I know but there are 600 jobs at 9PM they give to PM guys too, I have had them.
Midnight officially starts at 10pm, crew office games excepted.
Eric, I was trying to give them a little info - too much without the reality is just confusing
Reality indeed. I have found out what this job is like for myself.
I'm still on the extra list. I don't like it. Others love it and want to stay on it for as long as they can.
The job itself is great. It's the hours that get to you at first. Once I can pick a job. Things will get better.
Can you post or email me on what the T/O job is like and what's it like being a T/O? You posted it before but i lost the info. Any info would greatly be appreciated. Still waiting for the TA to call me.
Did you take a nice picture of the Triplexes in action on May 27, 2002? If so, we need your photo for use on the cover of our new video Triplex Special. Will pay you $25.00 for a non-exclusive license to use your photo, give you a photo credit on the cover, and send you a copy of the video. Please send jpg scans to us at valhallavideo@prodigy.net. If your photo is selected, we will send you a photo release, and later our check to you. Thanks to all who care to submit their pix for consideration.
I have a question to ask, could you/they please e mail me? Thank You.
Help me out here.
I believe it is the passageway that connects the "E-V" at Lexington Avenue with the "6" at 51st...
The context of the postings suggested it was the 23rd St Ely passageway between the E/V and the G. Citicorp has its big back office building there.
I oughtta know, I walk through it every morning. The only thing that irks me is that there is only one motorized walkway which leads to the 23rd St. - Ely Ave. station where you catch the "E" and the "V". I always thought there should be one in the opposite direction as well.
I think that walkway takes turns going both ways during the day. (No pun intended!)
It does indeed turn around sometime during the day...around 5 PM I was walking through there and it was heading to the G train.
Perhaps it's just me. Just seems whenever I'm down there, it's headed in the opposite direction of where I'm going.
If you are going in the reverse direction to peak travel, that would be true.
You mind me asking how that would work?
I've seen people on those things at airports just sitting there, leaning against the moving railing, just plodding along. What happens to these people when it turns? Do they just suddenly start going backward? Or is there somekind of warning/pause before the system reverses?
It would be a hell of a sight to see a bunch of one track minded commuters trying to run against the walkway as it changed!
They cordon off the entrance a few minutes before when they change the directions. They assume everyone would have gotten off it by the time they change it. They do this to escalators on deep level subway systems with an asymmetrical number of escalators.
What about a tag team? One guy stands at each end. As soon as the hapless passengers near the end, one guy changes the direction of the walkway. Then it gets reversed again. The passengers never get off...
:0)
See AEM-7's post.
Both locations can be called CitiCorp passageways.
The connection between Lexington Ave E/V to the 51th Street 6
and the Court Square G to 23rd/Ely E/V.
CityCorp contributed to both passageways to be built.
;| ) Sparky
It's the connecting tunnel between Court Square (G) and 23rd Street, nee Ely Avenue (E,V).
I'd have to agree. The transfer passageway from Lexington/3 Ave on the E & F to 51 St on the 6 doesn't go under the Citicorp building in Manhattan.
Yes, because the building that it comes near is the CitiGROUP Center.
At 30 Rockefeller Plaza we have the RCA Building, and blocking the view down 4th Avenue is the PanAm Building.
Qho owns the Pam Am building now? Do peolpe still go eat at the dining club at the top of thje Pam Am building?
PanAm (MetLife now) had a heliport on the roof, but now restaurant.
RCA (GE now) has (or had?) the Rainbow Room on top, the Chrysler Building had the Cloud Club, and 1 World Trade Center had Windows on the Worlld.
New movement afoot. STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
And for those of you with broadband (not available upstate except in HIGHLY limited areas in Joe Bruno's district) some music to go with this thread:
http://www.brianmay.com/mp3/lovetrain_hollyjohnson.mp3 (3.5 *MEGS!!!*)
For those expecting the O'Jays, here's the classic, but not MP3. Real Audio. Sorry ... one of the limits of dialup is waiting forever. Part of life in the "HIGH TECH VALLEY" Joe Bruno is trying to sell us. Fun trying to do BUSINESS on a dialup, but such is life in the "Podunk State." :)
http://www.artistdirect.com/cgi-bin/ramstream?file=~ddd-475124/0016923_0110_00_0002.ra
Do NOT ask me out on the 9/22 fantrip as I usually ride the first car and am already happily married!!
--Mark
Hey, I always ride in the first car and I'm single!:)
So do I, and so am I, except when I'm riding the "7". You can be rest assured you'll find me in the R-33 single-line cars :o)
Must be the axiflow fans, right?:)
Kinki! (oh yeah, on topic ... "shariyo") ... there. Moo. :)
How did you ever guess? :o)
Amen! I always thought the subway was a good pick-up place. Got a couple of phone numbers myself that way (back when I was single)...
Hey I'll drink to that concept. I prefer the first car anyway, not really because of the railfan window, but I just like the first car for some reason (actually what I really like is getting on somewhere in the middle and walking up to the first car - I love walking between the cars!)
Care to share some of your experiences with us?
:-)
One time, during medical school, I was waiting on the platform at 15th Street on the Market-Frankford line when I noticed the smell of some very nice perfume (not too strong and very pleasant). I turned slightly to see where it was coming from, and was greeted by a pleasant, attractive woman who asked me about something I was reading. It turned out she was a first year med student, ex-engineer, (I was a third year student). We started talking, and she gave me her phone number before she got off the train. We went on to be friends, and when she graduated, I returned to Philly for the "hooding" ceremony. She is now somewhere in the South (lost track of her) finishing up training as a neuro-ophthalmologist (yes there is such an animal - very highly specialized). A classy lady.
Well, opthamology has to do with the eyes, so she must he a highly-specialized eye physician.
Her specialty is the optic nerve and the nerves controlling the muscles which move the eye.
Sanchez came up to me yesterday at WTC as I was charging up my E. He handed me his card and was asking me what I thought of it. While this "singles car" thing sounded vaguely familiar (probably something someone mentioned here; I didn't take it seriously), I didn't know anything about it or what to say.
Well hopefully I'll meet some mystical ladies while riding the first car.
At the suggestion and in honor of Sea Beach Fred, I have changed my handle from R16 Lover to Sea Beach R16 Lover.
Slow Beach? Like they say....love is blind.
Like the Brighton Line today is any better..............
The R68's can't get out of their own way, and the slants don't belong on the express and don't get up the same speed as the old Brightliners did.
Which was faster to DeKalb in the old days - the Sea Beach or Brighton from Coney Island? I'd bet it was the Sea Beach.
I must respectfully disagree about the slants on the diamond Q. They hold their own on the express run. You should have seen us last fall on a Manhattan-bound diamond Q. It was a blast! The T/O kept his cab door open all the way and shot the breeze with us, and did a super job. We dusted a D train or two along the way and yelled "HI!!!!! BYE!!!!!", waving to the passengers. Later, as we sped along Broadway, the T/O was going to coast through a jog in the n/b express track before Union Square. We said, "Aw, go for it!", and he did. Then as we approached 28th St., I said "28th St. dead ahead!" As we ripped past, it was like being on an N train all those years ago. You had to be there.
But what about the faster run to DeKalb - Sea Beach or Brighton?
I was only busting on the slants - they hold their own. I took a ride last month. I would still love to see the R32's.
Back in the good ol' days, the Brightliners (R32s) really ripped on the N, Q, and T. Back then (pre-GOH), you could tell how relatively fast they were going because they emitted a characteristic whisper (as opposed to the R1/9s, for example, which emitted a characteristic growl). The higher the pitch of the whisper, the faster. The Sea Beach (notice I refer to it here as Sea Beach, and not Slow Beach as it is today) and West End achieved a high pitch under 4th Av. between Pacific and 36th. The Brighton did that on every stretch between 7th Av. and Sheepshead Bay. But the highest pitch of all (and thus fastest speed) was attained on the downhill raceway past Av. H going into Newkirk. Now that was a ride!
Those shiny new R-32s certainly did zip along 4th Ave. on that memorable day in July of 1965. They even crossed the bridge at a good clip.
Interesting combination of line/rolling stock. I can only recall a short period from 1976-77 when that car ran regularly on that line.
what was it before?[pardon me for askin' fella]
Click "First in Thread", above the title.
Maybe I should change my handle to R-10 Fan.:) I passed on Mr. R-10 out of respect for William Padron.
I'm thinking of upgrading my handle to Chris R42...lol
I could change my name to American R16.
Why not American Car & Foundry R16?
LOL
I'm thinking of upgrading my handle to Chris R42...lol
Well, if you are going in order of BMT/IND sized cars you skipped R40....lol (I think you were R16 before R27-30.)
Well, Wayne took care of that one. After all, he's Mr. Slant R-40
Wayne has the status of Mr. slant R40, and Tony has the 40M's all to himself. Besides, I like the R42 more than the R40.
lol. I really should get a more "subway" type handle. I originally started posting on the LIRR Forum as "GP38" (The GP38-2's are some of the engines that used to run on the LIRR), so I wanted to keep things consistant. It's funny because I hardly ever post on the LIRR forum anymore (even though I occasionally read it), and the GP38's don't run on the LIRR anymore (without the NYA).
Don't, I have a railroad type handle and it works well. There are too many subway cars in here.
Lol, Well I was thinking of just adding "Chris" or something to it like "GP38 Chris" (as that's my real name), but I guess it doesn't really matter.
Your name is GP38 Chris? Railfan parents, I guess.
lol. You know what I mean..... Hey that would be more cruel than naming a child "Moon-unit" or something.....
I was thinking of getting a more subway-related handle, but:
- if I called myself VAL208, people would think I was a girl
- I don't know how to change my handle anyway
Maybe if I did change it I could use the name of my favourite DMU - the Class 168 Clubman.
How about Chris R-42, then?:)
It's for my "love" of my favorite line - the Sea Beach, combined with my favorite rolling stock - the R16.
Do R-16's make good lovers? lol
speaking of which, what happened to sea beach fred after all?
what happened to Sea beach fred?
That's a different poster. "Sea Beach R16 Lover" used to be just "R16 Lover".
With al the talk of the iminent reopening of the 1/9 line to South Ferry, I have a question. Has the area under WTC been covered over or will the trains see daylight for tha short stretch?
Peace,
ANDEE
The new "tunnel" even though goes "above ground" through the WTC site, will look like any other subway tunnel from the inside of the tunnel. The tunnel is enclosed and ready to have what ever is to be built there to be built around it. I guess it is best that way, so that they won't have to disrupt subway service when they begin construction on the site, similar to the way the original tunnel had trains running through it during the construction of the WTC in the 70's.
You can get a fairly good view of the outside of the tunnel (as well as the rest of the WTC site) by going to the current viewing area, which is on Liberty Street west of Church Street, just outside the connecting walkway to the WFC.
I wish they hadn't rebuilt the tunnel, because I hope the new station won't mimic the original design of narrow platforms and cramped, disconnected mezzanines and entrance stairwells, but rather a modern spacious design with open sightlines like the underground stations in DC, LA, or at Roosevelt Island. In such a case, they'd have to disrupt service to remove the tunnel that they've rebuilt, reducing the likelihood of it ever happening. But, oh well.
Personally, I would have thought it would be cool if they made it a glass tunnel. Imagine that!!
Yeah, it would have been nice for about 2 days. Then the scratchiti vandals would have started showing up and that would be that.
Of course, if it were real glass, it would fall prey to sledgehammers.
I think all of that are irrelevant issues. Just have some cameras up there.
Story about inaccurate signs in stations.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow. No subway cars eating children, bursting into flames between stops or whacking walls. I tell ya, it's all coming apart like a cheap suit if that's all they have to whine about. :)
Apparently the conductors are still being dragged into another dimension, because according to the article there's nobody to ask for help. It's a wonder those doors ever get closed.
Heh. OPTO everywhere ... then again, an advocacy group with nothing to complain about makes for a bad day. I guess I'm missing something from the old "power to the people" days. If there's people who are confused and an organization formed to DO something about it, how about stationing some volunteers with "ask me" badges on the platforms to assist the confused? Nah. That'd be involvement. Much easier to snipe from the sidelines and say, "No my yob man."
I should clarify, the article doesn't say there's nobody to help you, it just implies it by ignoring the topic altogether.
It is good that this is a major item of concern in the subway, rather than more serious things.
On the other hand, the "little" things like accurate signs, escalators and elevators that work, etc., are important too. Not everyone is a vigorously healthy regular commuter who knows the subway perfectly. NYCT needs to devote a little management attention to these lesser items too.
Of course ... but it sure isn't a "banner item for consumer affairs" to a magnitude of bodies stacked like cordwood. And ya know what? Most tourists have enough sense to stop at the concierge's desk at the hotel, obtain a map with pencil lines on it that say "go here, look for this, then go here and voila" ...
The schleps are on their own. :)
True. How many stations in Queens still have neighborhood maps showing the B and Q trains terminating at 21 Street-Queensbridge?
Think that's bad? The neighborhood map at the broadway station (which they removed a couple of weeks ago) still had the R going to ditmars and the N on queens boulevard!
Hey, do you really want to make it too easy to get around? How else do you distinguish a tourist from the rest of us?
Tourists ask questions when they get lost or don't know what's going on. NYers will just wander around aimlessly.
Same map at 63rd drive!
I remember going to Grand Army Plaza last year or so, and noticing that the neighborhood map showed the JFK Express, among other things.
What I would appreciate is accurate and easier-to-understand exit signage. I dislike signs like "Use exit at end of platform", because it's ambiguous which end they're talking about. Also, it's sometimes impossible to know when part-time exits are closed until you get to them and find them closed. I know some of the platform signs directing you to part-time exits display the days and hours they are open-- all such signs should have this.
Before the horrible events of 359 days ago, there was a sign pointing to the south end of both platforms at Cortlandt Street on the N/R that said something like "Exit to Dey Street, open 6AM-8PM".
The wording would imply this exit was open seven days a week during the hours indicated. However, it was closed on weekends, even though there was nothing on the sign that said M-F. Many people would walk to that end of the platform, only to have to turn back to the full-time entrance at the north end. You can't tell the exit is closed until you're right on top of it.
The Stations Department asserted that it's 'implied common knowledge' and 'obvious' that the phrasing on the sign means the exit is closed on weekends. Doesn't seem very obvious to me- or the many tourists who frequented the area. When I suggested that a Monday through Friday be added to the sign, the person to whom I spoke said I was nitpicking and getting hung up with semantics.
But if someone- especially a tourist- were to be attacked by a mugger hanging out by the closed exit because they were drawn to it by an misleading and incomplete sign, it would be all over the news. Bloomberg and Kelly would have to hold news conferences, there'd be articles about New York reverting to its former dangerous self, etc.
That's an example of an inaccurate sign posing a potential danger.
Speaking of ambiguous exit signs, I've noticed some rehabbed stations have standard rectangular illuminated "EXIT" signs- the same kind you see in stores, theatres and schools- hanging from platform or mezzanine ceilings. But there are no directional arrows or text accompanying these signs! Is the exit in front of you or behind you? If so, how far? What street does it lead you to? Do you have to move a certain tile in the platform to reveal a hidden stairway? Or is there a secret light fixture you have to move to expose another hidden stairway? The standard white-on-orange exit signs with directional arrows have always done the job just fine, thank you.
>>>>...the person to whom I spoke said I was nitpicking and getting hung up with semantics. <<<
Sounds like your typical TA bureaucratic asshole.
Peace,
ANDEE
Probably wasn't the droid's fault. After all, if conductors are issued scripts that they're not permitted to improvise upon, what are the chances that phone droids would be permitted to vary from THEIR script? :)
I smell a TA study group coming on if someone were to call TA wigdom or perhaps the governor's office. Election years tend to make study groups schedule a meeting room for THIS week if the "second floor" or "upstairs" is involved.
Bottom line, if you want service, you're not going to find it in the numbers published in the phone book. Grade 6's have little leeway if an issue isn't on the script. But still, in the greater scheme of things, the issues ARE kinda nitpicky. And TOURISTS tend to ASK questions. It's the locals who would spend the night in an Iron Maiden (and some rockers but that's a different concert) ...
And they should be kept up-to-date! The 16th Street exit from the 14th Street station on the F/V used to be open on Sundays, but it isn't anymore -- not that you can tell from the signs, which haven't been changed. (This is as of this past February, when I was stung. Something may have changed since, either the signage or the hours.)
I remeber at Union Turnpike at the Interboro Pkwy entrance that the map by the booth indicated the permanently closed and soon to be demolished Metropolitan Ave and Queens Blvd stations on the J. And the entrance sign on the Southbound Parkway side advertized exactly like this:
Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens Station
E F G N
Heh, I guess someone didn't like the "Mott Avenue" sign at 149th and the Grand Concourse :)
--Mark
[yawn]
If this is their biggest complaint, then things are going good. I'm surprised they didn't whine that "The F train doesn't terminate at Ave. X!"
So they're going back to yellow globes? IINM they used to indicate an entrance without a token booth, then they did away with yellow and those entrances were covered under red globes (limited hours/exit only/no booth).
Why did they get rid of the yellow globes in the first place?
People thought it was a taxi stand ;-)
I'm glad they bring up the idea. The red globe means too much and the yellow globe would help simplify it.
It's ironic they did away with it since it was too confusing. Now Metrocard brings back the yellow globe! I'd like to see it happen.
I think they should make them look like flaming globes, Sigmund, like FLAMING GLOBES!
According to an ad in today's Philly Metro...if you buy a home near transit you can quality for SMART COMMUTE, a special mortgage program offered by Citizen's Bank.
As part of a program to encourage transit use and support neighborhoods served by transit, Citizens is offering a "location-efficent" mortgage for homes with easy access to several public transit options.
I tried to look up some info on-line at Citizensbank.com...but found none, but the ad in the paper says the offer is avaialable throughout Southeastern PA........
you can see the ad for yourself in the philly edition of metro at metropoint.com
I appreciate it.
Yes, I have it on good authority that they will be bringing in old "almond joys" from SEPTA to run on the new "4Q" line.
Peace,
ANDEE
And installing "flexible rail" which will stretch as the 5.5 foot Penn standard gauge SEPTA trucks pass over them, then snap back to normal configuration for other MTA subway cars.
Yes, I have it on good authority that they will be bringing in old "almond joys" from SEPTA to run on the new "4Q" line.
No, it's the modified "4Q2" line.
you guys are sick ,twisted,andreallymeannnn[LOL]!!! ''4Q... Thats terrible...[lol]
lol,
Peace,
ANDEE
Hey leave them alone, they're having fun. Besides their more up on
whom the tomfoolers who post on this board are. By the responses,
I see we are dealing with a non incoherent poster of dribble.
Right on guys, and since it's that time of the year, as ANDEE
would say
SHALOM.
;| ) Sparky
>>>>....non incoherent....<<<
Isn't that an oxymoron? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
More like a double negative.
here we go again....
There will be a subway car assigned to the B division on 9/8. NYCT is not disclosing which car it will be due to security concerns, but there is a rumor that it will be either the new R-320 or an M-3.
What kind of security reasons? It gets annoying when it becomes the reason for everything. I was at Queensboro Plaza taking pictures the other day and was told to leave and told I wasn't allowed to take pictures up there.
Seriously, does anyone have it? I'd like it too!
Does the TSS have the right to take over your train and operate it or is this a courtesy you give him? (I'm talking when you haven't violated a rule).
Does a TSS have to be qualified for the road, does he, like in the air force, have to log so many hours to remain current?
I ask because the TSS on this mornings Romeo ride needed to go back to school car...you don't need full service everytime you want to slow down ya know!! >G<
You don't have to give up your train to a TSS if he want to operate, it is a coutresy. They are all road qualifed. I was told to let them have the train so they can keep up there skills. Anyway why not give up the controlls, it give you time to rest, I always like getting them on my last trip. It was fun just sitting back and watching them operate knowing that I am going home soon.
Robert
i have seen it done several times. i was on the 7 train once with a motorman i know, and a T.S.S came on and asked if he could operate. of course my friend let him. it was nice to get paid to sit and ride the train and watch him operate the 7 from 111th to TIMES SQUARE. if i was a Motorman i would surrender my seat to any qualified T.S.S
Funny to see that on the TA people like it when TSS operate. When I used to work for a Commuter Railroad, the local union frowned upon TSS operating (because they can then bust strikes easier). Also, just like the original poster alluded, many TSS operated badly. I heard a story where a TSS got all excited when operating and blew a signal, so he called into the 'box hoping the signalman would cover up for him. He said something along the lines of how he's a TSS and isn't supposed to do stupid things like this. They did and nothing happened. Then apparently he bragged about this in the crew room, got tape recorded and got himself reassigned. He is now a platform cleaner at an intermediate station.
Where I came from, they aren't called TSS's but "traction inspectors".
There was one time when I was riding in the head end when a TSS came onboard. He spent a while talking to the regular driver and then sent him to the back to rest so he could talk to me and operate. I was in no position to judge whether he operated well but he seemed to know what he was doing, and there was no bad lurches or jerks or anything. In fact the motorman operated not as well as he did, in my opinion; the motorman was more abrupt with his stops and often braked sooner. Maybe that's why TSS's blow signals, because they are too confident about being able to stop in time...
I asked him about railhead conditions. He also seemed well versed in that.
AEM7
There shouldn't be a problem with a TSS operating a train, as long as the TSS is willing to accept responsibility in the event something goes wrong. Some T/O's will not let a TSS operate, but they are few and far between.
Back int he "motor instructor" daze, they'd be sitting there making you sit across from the cab LECTURING you on why you chewed. And yet, the relief from your left hand going numb was somehow a SACRIFICE and you somehow OWED them something for taking over. Amazing how many two shots cleared for them. I tell ya, I was willing to call a Jesuit if only one had shown UP. :)
Calling Jesuits is easy - ya just gotta know the number. They put it into my head the first day of High School, and I STILL know it.
>>>>>>>>Calling Jesuits is easy - ya just gotta know the number.
What's the area code for Jesuits? Is it in Long Island?
212. There's a large grouping at 84 St/ Park Ave as well as others near to almost every school with the word Fordham in it.
Yeah, but after Vatican II, they went to all digit dialing. :)
My High School years post-date Vatican II.
Et Cum Spiri 220 has been changed ... the NEW number is 327-220. :)
Yes, they are supposed to practice operating to maintain their skills.
What does TSS stand for? And what are there duty's?
Transit Secret Service
Train Service Supervisor
They oversee T/O's and C/R's.
What does C/R stand for?
Conducting Rats???
Conductor Reincarnate???
AEM7
"C/R" Means "Conductor, revenue" as opposed to "C/C" which means "Conductor, copper" ... moo. :)
I thought C/R was an acronym for AME....carrier reduction. 1 KW of RF with a pilot carier of 1 watt and your headphones blast a whistle on frequency that cleans your aural canals out.
Nyuck nyuck nyuck....three stooges supervisors??? Practicing T/O is like firearms practice: well, you load the magazine, drop an extra cartridge in here, operate the safety, pull back the slide and ooops...you commited fatal BIE. Everyone engaged in moving trainsets
should be examined once a year or more...just like drivers should be examined regularly by motor vehicles. Sorry for any inconvienence but whether it is a firearm, a motor vehicle or a trainset...any mechanical device that can do harm to others carries responsibility. Answer to Rons post......Transit System Supervisors. CI Peter is OnTheJuice
Story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/05/nyregion/05REBU.html
The article says that the 1 and 9 will "bypass" Cortlandt Street. That's rather misleading, as of course the station no longer exists.
The worst part is that the 9 train will run at all. A tremdous waste of time and effort(but I guess not too much money).
I know. The 9 is so useles...
I just received the artical from the Times via email. INTERESTING stuff.with the rebuilding,did they place a station shell that could latter be used as the new Cortlandt st?
I don't know.
I doubt it. A potential station here will be integrated into the transit "hub" planned for underneath the WTC site. Since nobody knows what it will be like, the exact location of Cortland St's replacement is up in the air. It might not even be on Cortland St.
yeah,I kinda figured since the ''new hub'' would strech to the FULTON ST station,from B.P.C.,they would somehow place an new station somewhere in the center of the complex.Somewhat simular to the way the A LINE links all the lines together at Bway Nassau sts.
I suspect they'd at least build the platforms for a new station, but probably with no access.
Once they decide what is going to be built above, it would seem easier to then just build access to the platforms.
If they just have tunnel, then I'd think they'd have to take the tracks out of service for quite some time once they decide to build the station.
CG
If they just have tunnel, then I'd think they'd have to take the tracks out of service for quite some time once they decide to build the station.
Was the 59th St / lex Ave express station built while Lex Avenue expreses were still in service?
--Mark
One of the links from this site shows some literature from the opening of the express station which indicates that construction of the station took 3 years and that there was no disruption to IRT local or BMT service.
By it's omission it would seem that express service was disrupted. Whether it was a long term outage or just a nights/weekends thing isn't clear.
CG
I remember passing through the station on an express in Fall, 1962. Since I was unaware of its construction and not familiar with the IRT in general then (I was 11 years old), I was surprised to see it. I think we went through it at somewhat less than optimum speed.
According to another article that was linked here recently (10 days ago or so?) a shell is being constructed; a false wall will be constructed along the platform edge so that work can proceed without flaggers after service resumes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks.That would make the most sense.
I'm told that the "you must be in the first 5 cars to exit at South Ferry" signs have started reappearing in (1) trains. Nice to see those back out on the road - it's the only sign that service is returning you can find in the system, since the 1/2/3/9 aren't getting "MORE CHANGES" posters of their own.
Please express your opinion on this idea
E train to operate from 179th Street to World Trade Center at all times
F train to operate from Jamaica Center to Brooklyn at all times and making express stops between 21st Street/Queensbridge and Jamica/Van Wyck only
V train to be extended from Continental Ave to 179th Street weekdays 6AM to 7PM (this will require 2 additonal trains only)
Advantages
1-Hillside Ave passengers from Van Wyck to 179th Street will have 1 8th Ave Express service and 1 6th Ave Local service weekdays
2-Current E line passengers who board at Jamaica Center and Stuphin Blvd/Archer Ave and go downtown can use the J/Z Line and now have a 6th Ave Midtown service
Disadvantages
1-75th Ave and Van Wyck passengers will lose access to Archer Avenue
2-Current F line passengers from Hillside Ave will have to switch for 6th Ave service and currrent E line passengers from Archer Ave will have to switch for 8th Ave service
PLEASE NOTE: The E will make all stops between 179th Street and Continental Ave at all time
Your comments please
Thank You
Interesting post.
"75th Ave and Van Wyck passengers will lose access to Archer Avenue "
They don't have it now. Only the F train stops there.
Ron,
You can travel to/from Archer Ave from Van Wyck and 75th Avenue evenings,late night and weekends when the E stops at these stations
Thank You
But not during the week or at rush hour, when most people want to ride.
My opinion is the "E" should be express all the time. By that I mean skip Van Wyck Blvd. and 75th Ave at all times. It all balances out, since the "F" serves those stations anyway, and the "E" has to make an additional stop at Jamaica Van Wyck which the "F" does not. Just my two cents...
Jamaica-Van Wyck is on a different route and does not cater to the people headed for Hillside Av stations. Off-hours, skipping it doesn't save a lot of time, since the E train has to switch on/off the local track anyway, and gives local riders more service. At rush hours and during the weekday, the F runs more frequrently, so the E can skip it.
During early mornings, evenings, nights and weekends, the (E) stops at Van Wyck Blvd. and 75th Ave.
At any rate, I like having the (F) at 179th. I live in Oakland Gardens, Queens and work on 5th Ave, so it does pretty much what I need it to. I suspect it is probbably about the best arrangement too, since 179th serves a great deal of Eastern Queens, and 6th Ave is as good a location in Manhattan as you can sak for, being close to the spine of Manhattan while 8th is nearer the perifery. (Sp?)
:-) Andrew
Andrew,
Services changes sometimes do not please everybody. I was thinking of the overall service of the system and ways to get more ridership on the J/Z Lines which have developed a ridership loss and to relieve overcrowding on the Queens Blvd Line
Thank You
Which ridership loss would that be? If anything, ridership is up all over the system.
More people could use the J/Z to go to lower Manhattan - but that's a marketing issue. Also a rebuilding issue - when the new WTC site goes up and thousands of jobs are recreated there, people will be returning - many on the subway.
Nothing you can do to the (E) (F) lines will improve service on the (J) (Z) lines.
To Improve the (J) line, you need to make it FASSSssssTER.
My plan to streamline services here includes removing the "S" curve at Crescent Street.
The (J) from Jamaica Center would stop at
Supthin Blvd
121 Street
111 Street
104 Street
Woodhaven
85th Street
75th Street
Broadway East NY
the RUSH EXP to/from Manhattan
The (JJ) or (Z) for those who do not like double letters will start at a new terminal station to be built at Rockaway Blvd making stops at
Crescent Street
Norwood Avenue
Clevelamd Street
Van Siclen Avenue
Alabama Avenue
Broadway East NY
and all stops to Manhattan.
*THAT* And nothing less will attract Jamaica Center passengers to the (J) line.
Elias
When skip-stop is in operation, the J/Z is already faster than any other (subway) options to lower Manhattan. Speed apparently isn't enough. Or, rather, speed is too much -- people prefer to take a train that moves fast even if it moves in the wrong direction and thus takes more time to reach its destination.
I for one would still love to see a less curvy J route with a peak-direction express - or even two express tracks (stacked vertically?) to provide true express service both ways.
Time and $$$ and politics...
You are right, but many people want to go to mid-town, and so a train to downtown does not serve them. I am NOT interested in restoring the (K) service, but, if we untangled the Jamaica Avenue Lion as I have proposed, THEN I'd not object to it at all.
Elias
-- people prefer to take a train that moves fast even if it moves in the wrong direction and thus takes more time to reach its destination.
The (E) is a funny line, isn't it? It spends most of its "southbound" route going northwest. I believe its northern terminal (Jamaica Center) may even be south of its south terminal (WTC). But if that's so, it may also be so of the (J)/(Z). The Broadway section of the el also runs northwest when it is running timetable south. It's hardly a direct route either.
:-) Andrew
You are correct. The Queens Blvd IND and Roosevelt Av IRT lines cross each other, and Queens Blvd heads southeast to Jamaica while the 7 goes northeast to Flushing.
The Queens bus map shows the actual scaled alignment.
Whenever a train is going northbound or southbound they are refering to the direction they are going in Manhattan.
Andrew,
Services changes sometimes do not please everybody. I was thinking of the overall service of the system and ways to get more ridership on the J/Z Lines which have developed a ridership loss and to relieve overcrowding on the Queens Blvd Line
Thank You
J/Z,a ridership loss? you gotta be kidding.I've been on that line several times already and it gets LOTS of passengers along the line especially after Broadway Junction who are heading to Jamaica Center.I say ridership on the J is pretty good....except weekends of course.
I have also seen many people traveling to Jamaica Center on the J. The line is a good option for people traveling from Jamaica to lower Manhattan. However, since ther is so much excess capacity on the J, and little on the E, perhaps the MTA should try to sell the line, like they did with the V.
My opinion is biased, since 179/Hillside is the nearest station to where I live, but I like having the Sixth Avenue service there.
In addition, if we were to have two lines running out of 179, whether they'd be E & V or F & V, I'd like to see one of them express between 179 and Continental.
I proposed this a year ago when the plan for the new V train was publicized. With the F off of 53rd. St, the E became the more desirable express, and the Jamaica Center terminal has a maximum capacity of 12 TPH. Running the E from 179th allows 15-18 TPH.
However, your idea of extending the V to 179th is a waste of resources. If the E runs local 24/7 as you describe, V ridership on Hillside Ave will be nearly non-existant.
I'm not talking about the basic design of the cars, which was damn near the exact same thing for the R17-R36 on the IRT and R16-R30 on the BMT/IND. I'm asking which car classes had at least some cars painted in Redbird red.
Just having been painted some shade of red at some point isn't enough. I'm talking about the specific Redbird paint scheme that is now familiar: Dark red with black on the upper part of the front and end and the silver roof. A GOH is not required, just the paint job.
So that definitely includes the following car classes: On the IRT, the R26, R28, R29, R33ML, R33WFS, R36ML, and R36WF, and also a handful of R17s which are now museum pieces. On the IND/BMT, the R27 and R30.
So were there any R21 or R22 Redbirds? How about R16s? Any others? (I think I ran out of possibilities, but then again the R10 had a similar "Greenbird" treatment.
:-) Andrew
I would say in the Dave Gunn era which the cars were painted in "Fox Red".
Well, you have to go back at least as far as The Great White Fleet (the Flushing Line when the TA was installing double fences with razor wire and dogs around Corona Yard). What year was that?
If I'm not mistaken, the all white scheme for the subway cars started about 1980-1981.
#3 West End Jeff
According to "Subway Lives," a good book about the NYC subways, the red color was the idea of David Gunn, who had just come over from running the Philadelphia subways. I think the original name for the color was Broad Street red or Fox red. I believe the red paint scheme for the IRT cars started in or about 1983 or 1984.
IIRC, (at least some of) the paint itself had come from Philly - excess from what Gunn had used to paint cars in that city's fleet. I recall that from someone's post several months ago, with a picture of one of their cars dressed as such.
The first modern redbirds appeared on the #7 in early 1985. These were the in-house R36WF GOH's. The R33ML's and the R30 redbirds appeared later that year. The green R10's appeared at about the same time.
My question isn't so much when the redbird look premired, but which trains displayed the look. How far back in the R-series were there at least one car painted in redbird red. I know for certain about the few R17s and obviously the R26-36 on the IRT and the R27/30 on the IND/BMT, but were there any others?
:-) Andrew
No. A handful of R17's were painted in the scheme, used on the Fushing line as the "singles" as the R33S's were overhauled, then later used on the Times Sq. shuttle. No r21/22's were ever painted as redbirds. Most R30's and a handful of R27's were. All overhauled R26/28/29/33ML/33S/36ML/36WF cars were.
10 R33's were painted the same green as the R10's were in 1986 as an experiment, as was one R17 and one R21 in case an all green 9 car train was needed.
That's disappointing to hear. If that's true why do you think MTH decided on an R-21 train for their redbird set? I myself would have preferred R-26's or later equipment. Somehow I recall the R-21's as being white.
You recall correctly. That would be the Great White Fleet of Corona Yard, painted that way so the TA would send a strong message to would-be vandals. The Yard got double fencing and dogs to protect it.
Yeah, the message was, "Let's paint the cars white so we can get the graffiti off as soon as it's applied". Didn't quite work out that way.
I thought the dumptruck white of the early 80's was insane. Made every subway car an inviting blank canvas.
I recall the R17/21/22 in the only way I ever saw them: filthy and covered with grafitti. By the time I was old enough to ride them, they were alreay consigned to the scrapheap.
They were clean when I first saw them in 1967-68. However, it wasn't until a decade later that I started riding on the IRT with any regularity and by then, the graffiti epidemic was in full bloom.
By 1986, they were beyond dirty. When the R62 contract was issued in 1982, these 3 car classes were scheduled for scrapping and were in a sorry state at the end. Broken doors, no lights, broken glass, etc.
When did those green R-33's revert to red?
Not sure. 1988ish. That's when they disappeared.
It think it depends on when they were scrapped. Some R-17's got painted in this scheme because they were scrapped later than their slightly newer R-21 and R-22 cousins.
I don't think any R-12, R-14, R-@1, or R-22 models were painted in Redbird colors. I doubt that any R-16's on the B-Division were, either.
None of the R-16s ran in revenue service in Redbird Red. The one at PS 248 does wear that paint scheme now.
I saw R-36s in the Fox Red scheme in October of 1984. It was a refreshing sight for sure - nice, smooth-running, clean trains.
Hmmm, I rode the 7 to Shea a few times in 9/84 and only saw the white cars.
I think the Redbirds (GOH variety) were just starting to appear in October. Most of the trains I saw were white, but there was at least one fancy schmancy red train.
There was a post earlier about movies in the subways. This post showed two scenes in the movie that took place in the subway. Here's the link:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=380428
I think this was shot at Nevins Street lower level. Th wall mosaics suggest a Contract One or Contract Two IRT station and it seems that the mosaic used in the abandoned lower Nevins Street station looks much like it.
Thoughts?
Looks like a set. More and more NYC subway scenes are shot on sets. It's cheaper than doing it on location.
The Nevins St. lower level is in no condition to be used for filming, and it has no tracks.
Lower Bay St. in Toronto. I just posted a link to a picture in the Subways in movies thread.
I was just wondering what would replace the R40M's on the J/M/Z lines when their times come. Could the R44-46's run on the elevated portions of the J/M/Z lines, or are they too long/too heavy?
Too long. 75-footers can't handle the curves.
The R40Ms and R42s will be replaced by other 60-foot cars, either by R143s now arriving (I understand some are going to the (M), which would in turn send the excess cars to Coney Island), or R160s which are comming in a few years.
:-) Andrew
I imagine the new cars are going to be heavier than the R40's they will be replacing. Is the el structure going to be reinforced to handle the new cars?
I'm no expert on the matter, but I suspect that weight is not too much of an issue. Any els still in use were long ago strenghtenned and reinforced to allow the steel cars of the subway to run on them, and I'm sure they're OK for whatever car that is.
:-) Andrew
In New York, the Els are stressed to support 11 times their own weight.
I meant buttressed
In other words they are way overbuilt.
Well, I'm told that after 80+ years they may only be able to support 6-7 times their weight, so their "overbuilt" condition is a good thing - it offered longevity.
Ultimately (50-75 years from now), they may need reinforcing...
The BMT standards were heavier than anything out there today, and they ran on the Eastern Division lines for years.
But they were only 67 foot long!
The Crescent St. S curve cannot be traversed by an 75' car. The S curve north of Myrtle on the M can only handle 75' trains going in one direction at a time...trains could not pass each other. There's also a curve on the L which cannot be passed.
I heard that Crescent St. could be passed, but really, really slow.
The L, no one is really sure. It doesn't look as tight as City Hall to me, but maybe the bench wall (which was shaved at City Hall) might obstruct.
Someone once posted a photo here of an R46 at Fresh Pond Road on a 1976 fan trip. IIRC the R46 had to cross the WillyB with no trains running on the opposing track due to tight clearances. (If anyone has this photo please email it to me, I seem to have deleted it in error.)
I had printed it and will have to scan it. I hope it comes out legible enough. (I was planning on doing this to put it back online in my own ftp space.)
Eric, accordsing to Joe Cunningham the City Hall to Cortlandt Section was shaved. I have seen signs on the Nassau Street line saing no 75 foot cars beyond this point.
Alex- perhaps you can remember where the sign(s) is(are)
Can 75 foot cars run on the Nassau line between the tunnel and Essex Street? That whole line seems overbuilt, so for some reason it seems that they may be able to. Also, anyone know what size cars the LIRR used when it used to run on the Broadway el to Chambers Street?
Back in those days the LIRR cars were 50 footers.
The LIRR cars used in that service were MP-41's, which were basically Hi-V's.
Someone also mentioned here a while back that two 75 foot cars can also not pass each pther at the same tome at Marcy Ave also.
I remember one time as a kid, seeing an R44/46 M train at Dekalb Ave heading to Coney Island. I was on the D just coming off the bridge, and I figured we would catch it at Kings Highway for the M local to Ave U. I was riding up front and strangely, We never even passed an M on our way in. My guess was that it was problably an N or R train wrongly signed. Most likely R because at the time, N trains bypassed Dekalb Ave.
I was told by a management TA employee in the 1980's that an R44 would make a rare visit to the ENY shops for rewiring every so often.
I wish I could see a photo of when they occasionally brought the R44's along the Broadway el to ENY shop - that must have been a sight!
I've heard this too. But why would they have to go to ENY for rewiring, when that shop didn't even handle the cars?
Also, I heard 46's were brought there for clearance testing on the L when they were having all those problems with them, and had pulled them off of Queens. Apparently, the test was not sucessful.
There was an Instance During the Willy B shut down that they did send a 4 car set of r46's thru as test train.The limitations on the Eastern section are Marcy ave curve 2 75ft trains cant pass eachother
Crescent St and there is a stretch by 111 st where 2 75 ft cars would side swipe.Also I dont recall ther being any severe curves on the L that would limit 75fters But How would you get them there?and where would they be serviced?
About you last comment:
"The limitations on the Eastern section are Marcy ave curve 2 75ft trains cant pass eachother
Crescent St and there is a stretch by 111 st where 2 75 ft cars would side swipe."
At 111 St (And every Elevated station EAST of Crescent St) the tracks are on seperate platforms. I think there is a third track in the center used for train storage around that point (I dont go there often). So 2 75 Footers would not have a problem going there.
It seems at 111th Street the problem would only come in if they were stroring a train on the center track.
I thought that 111th St was on a straight stretch of track.
So did I, but someone above mentioned something about two 75 foot trains side-swiping if there was a train on the center track at that station. there must be a slight curve there. I don't know enough about the station to know for sure. I've never gotten on or off at that station.
I used to practically live on that station platform 50+ years ago, and it was all straight then.
Maybe he thinks that 75 foot cars are wider as well as longer.
Trains would not sideswipe each other on the Crescent St turns.
The degree of curvature would probably cause the corners of coupled cars in the same train to crush against each other.
Long ago I had heard that the Crescent Street curve was too tight for 75-footers.
Wayne
nope,75 footers absoultely cannot run in the Eastern Division.the stations can only accomodate 8 60 foot cars.there for the most possible replacement for the 40's and 42's there would be the R 32's.
6 car 75 footers equal an 8 car train of 60 footers, like on the G line. But I guess the sharp curves on the Eastern Division would leave too much overhanging with the 75 footers. They might even knock signals down to the street on those sharp curves.
well besides that reason,the digital destination signs on those cars dont have any programming for the Eastern Division except up to Essex St in Manhattan.
A digital sign can be reprogrammed for anything...
nope,75 footers absoultely cannot run in the Eastern Division.the stations can only accomodate 8 60 foot cars.
It's not the length of the stations that matters, as the you can run shorter trains of 75 foot cars there(6 cars I think can fit on the stations there - same length as 8 car trains of 60 foot cars) The problem is the curves at some spots.
there for the most possible replacement for the 40's and 42's there would be the R 32's.
No need for the R32's to come back to the Eastern division. The R143's are already displacing the R40-42's and by the time they need to be scrapped the R160's will be arriving.
I seem to recall ads for this movie in the early 1980's showing Turk 182 graffiti on a subway wall.
Yep, there were lots of subway shots in Turk 182, as the protagonist sprayed his tag all over lots of subway cars.
Mark
The only showing of spray painting in "Turk 182" was the scene at Hoyt Street with the new "super graffiti-free train". No other subway shots were shown but I could be mistaken. It's been a long time since I saw the movie.
That was the only one.....but wasn't that filmes at Court Street???
I think you mean Taki 183...
Turk 182 was a good movie, I couldn't remember if subway cars were involved though.
Im thinking of the actual early pioneer of urban graffiti...Taki 183, from the early 70s....my bad.
Just another brain fart...
Its Back to School for us Young Subtalkers, sadly. It must be a pain in the ass for the conductors now because of misbehaved kids on the train.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Certainly not me. I've always behave when using the subway.
I wanna play with the emergency intercom!
Speaking of "emergency." Its concerns me the most that if some bad high schooler (who has nothing better to do) ever tamper those emergency brake while the train running in high speed through the tunnel, it would cause a serious derailment.
No it wouldn't. You don't understand how brakes work.
Emergency brakes are "passive" in operation. What that means is that it requires air pressure to keep them from deploying. If you were to tamper with the train's brake system, the train wouldn't leave the yard. It couldn't move.
Err, if you would pull the emergency brake in a subway car, it will most likely not derail. It will most likely stop, with the doors locked shut. You will most likely be caught, since it will stop not in a station but in a tunnel, and the T/O will walk through the train and determine which car had the brake valve open. Of course, in NYC, you can walk through the train, but you'll not be able to get off the train, so they can probably still find you.
Freight trains are another story.
AEM7
Now you know one reason why I don't ride my trains...an incident like that and I'll have the trainset locked up tight before the crew knows whats happening and radio/phone TPD faster than you can say 'Fill my McBagget with ketchup, fries, MikkyDees TurkeyTurd burgers and hold the milkshakes on the side.' SelkirkTMO is having an extraordinary influence upon my psyche. CI Peter
MMMMMMMMMMMM! I'm hungry now!
EB, no...handbrake, possibly.
Be a pain for everybody who has to work in the subway around 3pm.
Hey...scratchitti rules by mutants. More vandalism to make me sick so I'll take undercar service but chances are that my day will be filled replacing mylar overlays on glass windows. R142s are so very nice 'tagger marks.'
R180 concept car...stainless steel walls/ceiling/floor thick enough to endure repeated belt sanding. 'DiamondKote' glasing, polycarbonate through color seating and no handles on anything to jam or break. Just a dream. CI peter
Why dont you guys do this. Instead of replacing the windows with scratchitti, just use a belt sander and sand it out. Doesn't matter if the window becomes cloudy, but the whole point is that the scratch marks arent seen anymore.
Why are R142 very nice tagger marks?
Windows on R142 have Mylar overlays which absorb the carvings but are dense enough to protect the glass...you peel off the Mylar with the scratchitti and reapply an new Mylar. The R142s are very nice tagger marks because the wall panels are similar to Formica kitchen surfaces and do not release all 'aromatic solvent carried ink markers' ('Magic Markers) upon application of a removing solvent.......the FibreGlas seating is an excellent source of artistic materiel similar to soapstone and easy to carve ones historic identity into but very hard to remove. Redbirds used a Teflon based paint on surfaces that can be washed clean with solvents...seating is hard Fibreglas. R142s remain 'nice tagger marks' and were never suitable for the 'harder parts' of the city. Repairing windows, cleaning wall panels and buffing FibreGlas seating is certainly not the assigned work of a 'mechanic' much less a 'electronic communications specialist.' The work IS part of the last contract......UTILITY. CI pETER
For some reason the R68's seem to get the worst scratchiti than any other. Did they use a cheaper plexiglass in the 68's?
"For some reason the R68's seem to get the worst scratchiti than any other. Did they use a cheaper plexiglass in the 68's?"
Are you referring to all R68s, or just ones that run on certain lines? If your answer has to do with certain lines, I'll continue my answer... -Nick
I guess all the R68's seem pretty scratched up to me as opposed to the other classes. I'm sure there is more of a chance of getting scratched on individual lines, but I remember them being scratched up already 10 years ago, and I'm sure they have been on various routes since then.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no 'PlexiGlass' acrylates used in any TA trainset.
That may be true, but then why is it that the R68's always looked more scratched up on ALL of the windows than some of the other classes unless they were a different material? And it can't be just that they ride on more "sratch-prone" lines, as the 68's share the same trackage as other routes with different classes of cars, so they don't really go anywhere where other classes of cars don't also go.
Every Redbird I've done carbody inspection upon has the cleanest walls BUT all glass sans the ones I had to replace is scratchittied beyond salvation (TA doesn't do cerium oxide glass buffing.) There are runs and routes exceptionally prone to vandalism...good places to burn out old Redbirds! A true 'scratch proof line' requires 'maggot control' which will not happen! Perhaps glasing could be replaced with perforated stainless steel panels...what's to look out upon...tunnel walls and other trainsets? CI Peter
One step further....DiamondKote glasing, ceramic wall panels and titanium body sheathing and seating. You could wash off any paint applied graffiti and never worry that anything else could be engraved sans 'electron discharge machining' or a portable plasma cutter or laser. What can we do to make the trainsets absent of vandalism?
Be a pain for everybody who has to work in the subway around 3pm.
yea this is where overnights on Metro North comes in handy till i get bumped
Luckily I have 8th period lunch, so Leave at 1:45 and the A Train is not crowded or have many students on them.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Also a pain for those who have to ride at that time too!
Peace,
ANDEE
L'Shana Tovah Tikasevu V'Sichasemu! Wishing everyone a K'Siva V'Chasima Tovah - a "gut gebensht yur"!
And all the best to you and yours.
I'm Jewish too. I wish you a happy Jewish new year [Rosh Hashanah].
#3 West End Jeff
And the same to you and yours.
Todah Rabbah but you're a day and a half early.
:-) Andrew
What is 5763?
It's our Jewish New Year. L'Shana Tovah everyone!
5763 years from Adam's creation I assume?
JR - a curious Christian.
That is correct, or so the theory goes.
:-) Andrew
No, 5763 years from the first day of creation.
OOOFAH......Redbirdsky # 5763 met demise. Soviet subs M-249, Kursk and K-19 met demise too! A penitent Anglican.....CI Peter
I think the 5763 has something to do with how many years the Jewish people have been waiting for the Messiah to return to earth....not sure of the details, as I am not Jewish.
The bible makes no mention of the numbering of years.
The simple explanation is that the Hebrew Calendar is a copy of the Babylonian calendar (right down to the month names) and as such uses a year significant to the ancient Babylonians.
The simple explanation is that the Hebrew Calendar is a copy of the Babylonian calendar (right down to the month names) and as such uses a year significant to the ancient Babylonians.
The "Babylon" from which these Babylonians came is not, presumably, the last electrified station on the LIRR's south shore route :)
They should build a BIG TOWER in the town south of Huntington.
I'm not sure where this tradition originates or where it's found in the rabbinic literature, but (the first day of) Rosh Hashanah is traditionally considered the anniversary of the completion of creation -- i.e., the sixth day. (As we determined in another thread a few weeks ago, as the calendar currently functions, Rosh Hashanah never falls on Friday -- yet the original Rosh Hashanah was on the very first Friday!)
As for the system of lunar months with 12-13 months per year, the source is the Biblical commandment to maintain lunar months (Ex. 12:2) along with the Biblical requirement that Passover fall in the spring (Deut. 16:1).
It's also a (renumbered) R46:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r46renumber.html
Happy New Year!
Not to mention an R-12.
It was an IRT R-12.
It's also the present number of an R-46.
And, it's also the year starting now in the Jewish calendar.
A happy holiday season to all our Jewish friends here at SubTalk.
Funny, I thought from the index that this thread was about an R46 car with a problem.
Happy New Year, everyone. May it begin better than the last one did.
From this goy ... Happy New Year to all my Jewish Friends.
SHALOM, ;| ) Sparky
happy year to all
faxman
To all my friends and fellow posteres on SubTalk and BusTalk - a very Happy and Healthy 5763.
And if anyone sees NYCTA car 5763, please put up a posting. Thanks.
Here you go:
And another view:
I love the first shot.
It's funny how most of the IRT class cars have BMT cousins:
That train (what class is that- I'm not good at IRT classes) has an R10 look to it.
Most of the IRT "redbird" classes are cousins to the R27-30's.
The R62's are sort of cousins to the R68's.
The R142's are cousins of the R143's.
Am I missing any IRT-BMT/IND relations?
That train is an R-12 (1948)
That train (what class is that- I'm not good at IRT classes) has an R10 look to it.
I think it's the R12 and R14.
Most of the IRT "redbird" classes are cousins to the R27-30's.
That design began with the R16 (BMT/IND) and R17 (IRT), then continued with the R21, R22, and R26 (IRT), then the R27 (BMT/IND), then the R28 (IRT), then the R30 (BMT/IND), then with the R33 and R36, both ML and WF (IRT). In other words, everything in both divisions from the R16 through the R36. I suppose we could go back and forth as to whether the R32 and R38 belong to this series too.
In fact, the R10, R12, R14 and even the R11 and R15 aren't that far off from them either.
BTW the R11 was a BMT/IND that had a sort of cousin on the IRT, the R15. Except the R15 wasn't stainless steel.
:-) Andrew
That design began with the R16 (BMT/IND) and R17 (IRT), then continued with the R21, R22, and R26 (IRT), then the R27 (BMT/IND), then the R28 (IRT), then the R30 (BMT/IND), then with the R33 and R36, both ML and WF (IRT). In other words, everything in both divisions from the R16 through the R36.
Actually I should have added the R16's look like the R17's (round window. The later redbird classes look a bit more like the R27-30's.
I suppose we could go back and forth as to whether the R32 and R38 belong to this series too.
Actually you can see the progression from the R27's to the R40's with the R32-38's. They had the R27-30 shaped seats with the R40-42 "aqua" color originally.
I was also told that if the R38's were to have been made with traditional carbon steel bodies, they'd have looked exactly like the R36WF cars.
Re: R-16 thru R-36, except R-32 ....
Can you say "Arch Roof". Some may say "Red Bird" or even "Silver Fox", but I think Arch Roof best puts them togather.
I would put the R-32 & R-38s in a different breed because of their stainless steel exteriors.
The 32 and 36 correspond (except for the stainless stell, of course). The IRT sized counterpart to the R-38 would have been the R-39. Tghis would have been used on both an IRT and BMT el.)
The IRT sized counterpart to the R-38 would have been the R-39. This would have been used on both an IRT and BMT el.)
The R39's would have been interesting trains. They would have been used on both the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx, and the Myrtle Ave el. If the Myrtle El would have survived, it would have been a much different el than most remember of it in 1969. Unfortunately, the el was destroyed before I was born, so my "memories" if it are only photos. But can you imagine if the R39's were bought and the stations refurbished on the line! You would have seen shiny silver stainless trains stopping at clean-cemented stations with a look similar to Alabama to Crescent on the J line. That instead of the old "wood" cars and "wood" stations that the Myrtle is remembered for.
The R-12s and R-14s were in fact the IRT's counterpart to the R-10s. One difference, aside from physical dimensions, was that the R-10s had pneumatic door engines (the last cars to have them, incidentally) while the R-12/14s had electric door engines.
L'Shana Tovah! May we all be zocheh to ride Redbirds in the new year and for many years to come!
---Brian
http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains
I'm afraid I don't see that bit in my machzor.
Try the newest ArtScroll .
You need an updated version.
Mine even has a Redbird benediction!
--mark
Tfillat haderech?
...with the special addition for traveling to a reef.
--Brian
To all on Sub-talk, may the upcoming year bring joy, happiness and most of all peace to you and yours.
From HartBus and family.
L'Cheim!
B"H
heh, come to think of it, the horn on a redboid sounds an awful lot like a shofar. toooot...toot toot toot toot.....
a happy and a healthy to all!
Yitz
Yeah, and a shama lama ding dong to you too.
At least translate it so us non-Jewish folk can understand what you're talking about.
At least translate it so us non-Jewish folk can understand what you're talking about.
I'm afraid it's about as relevant to the non-Jews here as the inevitable "Merry Christmas" greetings are to the Jews.
But if you insist, it's basically three traditional greetings (two Hebrew, one Yiddish) glommed together:
May you be written and sealed for a good year! Wishing everyone a good writing and sealing - a "good blessed year"!
(Traditionally, on Rosh Hashanah we pray to be written in the book of life. There are still ten days for revisions, but on Yom Kippur the book is sealed -- hence the references to writing and sealing.)
Yeah, and a shama lama ding dong to you too.
I'm afraid I'm going to need a translation of that one.
The "regular" New Year's, I guess, really doesn't have much to do with religion (unless it's some pagan thing). But at this point in time, what I mean to say, is that it's not a "religious" holiday. I'm just curious, as from other posts, it seems that you are a rather "Orthodox" Jew, do you celebrate the "every day" New Year? I was raised Catholic (although my father is a Protestant), so don't know much about Jewish Law, and I really don't even follow some of the "Catholic" rules such as not eating meat on Fridays in Lent. Not that this has the slightest things to do with trains, but while on the subject, I was a bit curious.
I think he was complaining about "Merry Christmas" in December, not "Happy New Year"
I don't care if someone tells me "Merry Christmas," but it also 4means nothing to me, as I don't celebrate the Feast of Saturnalia.
The Roman new year would begin in March. As the Winter Solstice grew in importance, it was shifted to January, but no change was made to the names of the months (like December: 10th month). This was most likely religious in nature. The sun is "reborn" on the winter solstice.
I wasn't complaining. (I'll save that for December.) I was just pointing out that Rosh Hashanah greetings aren't really relevant to those who don't celebrate Rosh Hashanah, just as Christmas greetings aren't really relevant to those who don't celebrate Christmas. (My complaint, which will come in December, is directed toward those who fail to recognize that not everyone celebrates Christmas.)
If Christmas is supposedly the birthday of Jesus, then New Years is the anniversary of his bris. It's a religious holiday in origin if not in current practice.
Do I celebrate it? Not in particular, but if (say) a friend invites me to a party on December 31 or January 1, I won't turn down the invitation because of the date. (But am I then celebrating the holiday or simply the friendship?)
Requested translation:
Dunno. Got it from the movie "Animal House". You know, from that group Otis and the thingamajigs......... or sumtin'.
L'Shanah Tovah to you and yours... may the New Year bring happiness and blessing to us all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hope this is a good omen. Driving from Boston to Long Island the past few hours -- I saw a truck with trailer serial number 5763. True, it's not a bus nor subway car, but I guess it's the thought that counts.
May we all be inscribed in the Book of Life for another year filled with love, happiness, prosperity, good health and railfanning.
--Mark
Amen.
Gents,the latest pocket map (August 2002) issued for the Notting Hill Carnival is the latest tube map I have,however I notice that the following line is missing,anyone know when this line ceased to be shown??
WAGN (National Rail)
(Great Northern City Line)
Finsbury Park
Drayton Green
Highbury & Islington
Essex Road
Old Street
Moorgate.
.
This was once part of the Northern Line prior to British Rail electrification and currently uses class 313 ac/dc emus......
Regards
Rob
oops..typo..that should be Drayton Park,Not Drayton Green which is on the Greenford 'loop'
Rob (check before posting!)
Its been off for several years, about the same time as Thameslink vanished. Will check exact date and get back to you. I don't think that anyone in LT has a clue as to what should go on the Underground map and what should not!
Looking at the current tube map (which if anyone is interested, can be found online here), the only railway shown is the North London Line, which I’ve always thought of as London’s equivalent of the “G”–just not going anywhere useful!
I think that the old Northern Line disappeared around the time when they rearranged the map to show the DLR going to Bank, ie the first map that didn’t have the Central Line going straight through the middle.
Has this had anything to do with the various privatizations that have been taking place?
John
Good point John ,that is what I thought at first but the North London Line(Richmond-North Woolwich) is run by Silverlink a parent company to WAGN who run the Finsbury Park (and beyond) service into Moorgate.
Rob
Forget the tube map. The London Connections is much better as it also shows the zones. The tube map is only for tourists:)
Simon
Swindon UK
Its also for people who want a reasonable chance of a train turning up within 30 minutes of arriving at a station, for people who have neither the time nor the inclination to fathom out byzantine routings dating from early last century, and people who expect minimum standards of signing and information, so that when a train does turn up, there is a reasonable chance of ending up at the intended destination.
We can argue about these points when we meet at the British subtalkers tube trip on Saturday, Max! You are making unnecessarily harsh generalisations about national rail services in London. Many parts of London have no tube service, and people might still want to go there - Croydon, for example; in some cases the rail service is more direct and quicker than the tube - Putney, Richmond or Wimbledon to central London, for example. British James would want to defend Chiltern Trains, and I defend Thameslink. There *are* some odd survivals from the past, like Crystal Palace to Beckenham Junction, or Gospel Oak to Barking, but they are the minority of the services.
The original question was: why is Finsbury Park to Moorgate (which used to be part of the tube) now omitted from the tube map, while the North London line (which has never been part of the tube) is included?
The answer may be that the NL line runs all day seven days a week, whereas the WAGN trains run to Moorgate only on Mondays to Fridays until about 9 p.m. Evenings and weekends, the Hertford and Welwyn locals run into Kings Cross instead.
Incidentally, I'd like to bet that the North London line will be cut back to Stratford once the Dockland Light Railway branch to London City Airport is open. Stratford-Canning Town is already covered by frequent Jubilee Line tube trains, and Canning Town-Custom House by frequent DLR trains (which will presumably become even more frequent when the airport branch opens). The tiny traffic from Silvertown and North Woolwich could be covered by a shuttle bus from North Woolwich to the airport DLR station. The Custom House to North Woolwich section has been run as a single track and has looked pretty derelict for years.
I don't agree with my compatriates about the rest of the North London line (Stratford-Richmond), though -- it *is* a valuable link across the northern suburbs, and if it were lost, more people would have to use crowded tube or national rail services into the centre and out again unnecessarily. (Only a few years ago, the stations at Hackney Central, Homerton and Hackney Wick were re-opened after many years of closure, after all, to improve transport to the Hackney area.) Maybe the reason it is on the tube map is to remind such passengers that this alternative does exist.
Fytton.
The line ceased to be included in the standard LU tube map at some time in 1999.
The December 1998 standard tube map included the WAGN line, whilst the February 2000 one did not.
I cannot narrow it down any further as for some reason I do not have any 1999 standard tube maps.
Standard tube map = shows LU tube lines only and does not include any other commentary (i.e. "Travelling in London" or the "Out & About" booklets.)
For a brief time, all railway lines vanished, it was around the time that the Jubilee Line opened, after that, only the North London Line came back.
Anyone know about fares? Do Drayton Park and Essex Road still issue/accept LT standard tickets (e.g. a Single from Manor House to Essex Road)? If so, there is a nice anomaly on the current map because the North London Line stations definitely were not part of the LT fares system last time I looked.
I had a mission today, and it was accomplished. I sat my arse down on a bench at GCT downtown and waited for a R142a 4, after 15 minutes (not bad), one pulls in! Yahoo!!! Not flexible? This baby was signed up to Atlantic Avenue! Announcements weren't working going to Brooklyn, but coming back, that announcer has some attitude! Going to Atlantic Avenue, from a little bit before Borough Hall till Nevins, the whole train's lights were out, no backups or nothin. Kinda freaky.
In the mood for some movies (.MOV QuickTime)? Here's the baby leavin Grand Central headin to the Bronx!
I could be wrong, but judging by the LED sign, isn't that an R142?
:-) Andrew
WRONG! I was on it...it was 76xx...
The movie didn't appear...
Not supposed to appear, download it by saving the target "Here's" to your Hard Disk.
Wrong Andrew, The signs on R142's do NOT have that rainbow effect when you look at them at an angle. Also, the font on the side signs on the R142 and R142A are different. The font is grainer on the R142 VS continous and bright on the R142A. Hope this helps! :-)
That's right, ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING about a R142a is FAR superior to a crappy R142. Haven't you figured that out yet?! Our friends from Japan can do no wrong! Get with the program on this board!
Sarcasim intended!
Bombardier cars have better ride quality.
ROFL good one!
You're a Junior at Stuy... What's Stuy like?
in my 2 days there... most of all its big.
it looks like the 70s BMT rebuilds(most of all rector st)
people continuously turn off the escelators
the food is great for school food, and its cheap
Well, an r142a did get stuck in a tunnel for 2-3 hours, so they(Kawasaki) can mess up as well.
Hmm, what is up with the superior quality Japan generally has, anyways? Everyone praises them and stuff, though the only reason they're so 'great' is because of good 'ole America! I bet the Japs don't think of that when the play their mini-MP3 players and drive their economic cars...
Long live America and our huge, SUV's. [sarcasm]
>>> Hmm, what is up with the superior quality Japan generally has, anyways? Everyone praises them and stuff, though the only reason they're so 'great' is because of good 'ole America! I bet the Japs don't think of that when the play their mini-MP3 players and drive their economic cars...<<<
Gee, I hope no one on this board who may be of Japanese descent reads your post and has to see that nasty racist slur. You may never hear the end of it...
I didn'y mean it... I heardb it already in a post
Besides, I forgot to add, didn't you see the word sarcasm there? I was just joking...jeez!
Well, that's certainly a step forward for NYCT. I'm happy to see that the cars now have increased flexibility -- now that I've moved away from the Lexington Avenue line...
Matt
The design of the system is still less flexible. It still doesn't allow the signs to be set with any arbitrary route number along with any arbitrary terminal (among the terminals available at all) -- only the approved terminals may be used for each route.
That said, I'm glad the 4 setting has a greater variety of allowable terminals and routings (express or local in Manhattan and in Brooklyn) than the 2 setting.
Yup, they seemed to have changed the software for the 4 as well. On the overhead interior LED signs it says Route, Time, "The Next Stop Is" -->next screen "Name of station"
Hey, how did you make the movie? I hope you didn't lug in a big video camera for that!
My Olympus Camedia C-3000z has a movie feature that can make movies up to 30 seconds (30 seconds equates to 9MB..so I have a 64MB card, so technically I can make 7 full length movies, no pictures). It's an awesome camera, and looks nothing like a video caû¥YÐ. Though the sound is crap :-(
Nice Pics!
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
......hmmmmmmmmmmm
the # 4 is an express ....local ??
brooklyn express ?? then lex. local ??
ok i know alantic avenue !! ...........................lol ??
swa the nyc official site it was not listed as any express !!..?
hmmmmmmmmmm...........??
i need to know this because i will be there next week or so shooting
the # 4 guess i will find out then !!! ............???
lol !!
My stepfather is a B/O and would like to take the test even if it's not promotional.
If someone from off the street can take the test, what makes you think that a B/O can't take it? OF COURSE HE CAN! That's what open-competitive means.
Doesn't he have to resign as B/O first? So if he doesn't get in, he doesn't have a job?
If he is hired, he has to quit the B/O job. Seniority does not carry over.
Hello all,
I need a quick rundown on what's new for 9/8 and 9/15 so I can update these 2 maps for this site.
Thanks in advance,
Michael Calcagno
See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvno.htm for the Coney Island related changes.
1/2/3/9 exactly as before 9/11/01, except no Cortlandt St station.
N/R/(and now)W Cortlandt St reopened.
I have yet to see the map but here is a summary of the changes:
9/8:
1- F ends at Avenue X. Free Shguttle bus to Stillwell stopping at Neptune, W8 and Stillwell.
2-Q Circle-ends at Brighton Beach. Use B68 to Get to Ocean Parkway, W8 and Stillwell.
3- N. runs express at all times in Brooklyn. late nights and weekends runs from Pacific to 86 vai 4th ave exprfess.
4- W. Full-time to Astoria. When N runs the W uses the Manhattan bridge and runs express.When N does not run, the W runs local in Brooklyn and Manhattan via Montague Tunnel.
5- R overnight Shuttle extended to Pacific Street.
9/15:
1 - 3 train returns to pre 9/11 route (New Lots Brooklyn via Manhattan Express and Brooklyn Local. Still does run late nights.)
2- 2 train runs express in Manhattan except late bights when it runs local.
3- 1 train. returns to SOuth Ferry, skipping Cortlandt (IRT) which will remain closed until it is decided what will be done above ground.
4-9 trains will resume. NOTE: 1/9 will resume previous skip stop (You can check pre 9/11 maps ont he site for which stations are served by a [particular train.)
5- N,R,W trains will resume stopping at Cortlandt Street (BMT) on 9/15.
I was at the Transit museum shop at Grand Central and they did not have new maps.
E-mail me off-site with your snail-mail address and I'll send to you when I get the new Map(s). I accidently deleted your info when I made changes to my address book.
TODD: The Museum Shop had the June 2002 International Edition which is identical to the June English version. When I get the new map(s) I will send to you.
I saw the new map on the W Train yesterday. They put the more idiot-proof "Subway Service Guide" like from the old map. No longer paragraphs for lines. It's back to the old graphs.
I love that format! It's so much easier to follow!
I saw the new map on the W Train yesterday. They put the more idiot-proof "Subway Service Guide" like from the old map. No longer paragraphs for each subway line. It's back to the old graphs.
The MTA Web site has the subway map updated to September 8th (Stillwell changes).
I wonder why theye didn't include the 1/2/3/9 changes. The 8th is so near the 16th obviously.
I was about to ask the same thing.
And there's not even any mention on their site of the upcoming 1/2/3/9 changes on the 15th ... I would think there would be a fair amount of public interest in THAT ahead of time.
There is now, but it's hidden among the service advisories for the 1/2/3/9. I don't think it was there 24 hours ago.
Here it is! The (9) bullet has returned to the "choices" for information as well.
The MTA never changes its website less than a day away. You'll see a Sept 15 map on the website sometime Saturday...
Reminds me of the chaning from Don't Walk/Walk signs to the big hand and the person walking for street lights. You might have the illiterate group that can't read! Or you could just have the plain old lazy people...:-P
Some people figure if the light is red they can cross if traffic will let them pass.
I went to the Gift Shop and three major Midtown subway stations. All they had was the June map. Most of the subway trains I rode today also still had the November map (with the E ending at Canal). I hope that changes by Sunday.
Excuse me, the (3) never operates during overnight hours.
Right! I made the error to see if you would catch it :-) it was the famous disappearing word trick :-)
It has before, I think up until 1994 as a shuttle
Currently a few 3 trains do run up until 12:30 am
The strip maps on the MTA site (except the 1 & 3 lines) have been updated for 9/8 service. If you click on a line or bullet on the map at http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/submap.htm you will see the strip map of that particular line. I also noticed the appearance of the diamond 9 on many of the updated strip maps where a transfer to the 7av IRT can be made. I guess the MTA decided to do one update instead of two updates during the space of a week.
I wonder why they are referring to it as that anyway? Do the R62/A even have a diamond 9 bullet?
It's funny really, since it's just a skip-stop service. Nothing like a real express. The MTA's trying to fool us.
How about the Z? Is there a diamond-Z bullet on the trains? It seems that the web site strip maps use the diamond designation for skip-stops but not on the printed maps nor on the trains themselves. MTA's inconsistencies have been discussed before.
Today we look at make up and handling.
No, this is not a column discussing putting on our faces, doing our hair and nails and proper charm and poise. Instead, we will discuss such issues as how loads and empties are placed in trains. In the last column I touched upon the subject. This time we’re going to delve into it much deeper and in detail. I was going to make this lesson a two part affair as it is rather long. However, I could not find a good place to break it into two segments. So it will just be one great big happy column.
Train make up is pretty basically just that, the way the train is made up in regards to the placement of loads and empties. Good train make up can make life and running the train enjoyable. Poor train make up generally makes for a long, miserable trip. Bad train make up can also create a set of problems unto itself. We will look at some of those problems as we progress through today’s lesson.
Most railroads offer some sort of guidelines in regards to the make up of their trains. Over the years, different ideas and philosophies have governed these guidelines. Some of these philosophies have been dictated by derailments, others by the notion they would rather not have derailments force them to change their philosophies. More often than not though, the former, rather than the latter have prevailed as the inspiration to make the changes.
On CNIC we have virtually no guidelines other than what the FRA requires for placement of hazardous materials (hazmat). While there are requirements in the special instructions for the placement and handling of dimensional (high or wide) loads, we have no requirements in regards to placement of loads and empties, just get ‘em on the train and run it. In Canada, CN used to have guidelines for train make up, but these guidelines have since been abandoned. Certain restrictions still exist for speeds with certain cars, but we’ll get into that later. I have been told the reasoning behind this policy is that we are a "flat" railroad, This means we do not have hilly or saw tooth profile to our railroad. True, we don’t have some of the legendary grades and profiles like Tehachapi, Altoona or Sand Patch, but we are by no means table top flat as is constantly suggested. If we were, a recent derailment that was blamed on train make up would likely not have occurred.
On the other hand, railroads like Burlington Northern & Santa Fe have very strict guidelines for train make up. Of course, some of their guidelines were developed after several fiery, disastrous wrecks involving hazmat release. Its amazing how one’s attitude can be swayed after they have to pay out millions in costs to clean up derailments. BNSF restricts non-unit trains in regards to loading placement in the train. Two spectacular wrecks by BNSF predecessor Santa Fe lead to the development of these restrictions.
One of the major restrictions works like this. On all manifest freight trains, there cannot be more than a solid block of fourteen loads together. If there are more, they must have at least one empty car after the first fourteen loads of the block. Simply put, if there are a block of twenty-nine loads in one block, they cannot be all placed together in one solid block. There must be an empty car between the fourteenth and fifteenth loads and another between the twenty-eighty and twenty-ninth loads. There also cannot be more than thirty-three percent of all tonnage in the rear twenty-five percent of the train. This restriction reduces the potential for severe run in of slack under certain conditions. Minimizing a great concentration of weight on the very tail end of the train significantly improves train handling. The better a train handles, the less likely a break in two will occur. The likelihood for a derailment from in train forces is also reduced.
Any train that must operate outside these parameters has to be approved by the Chief Train Dispatcher. Such trains are designated as "non-complying" and cannot exceed a maximum speed of 45 MPH.
Some railroads have guidelines for train length as well as restrictions for cold weather operations too. If you look at their system special instructions, there are pages of restrictions with regard to make up, car restrictions and train handling.
Norfolk Southern has specific train length guidelines for cold weather operations when brake pipe air is only provided from engines coupled at the head end of the train. These rules do not apply when there are mid-train locomotives to provide air to the system. You need such guidelines as it is very difficult to get brake pipe pressure up and maintain it in the bitter cold. I’ve always stated "Cold weather and compressed air do not mix." The colder it gets, the harder it is to maintain the air pressure throughout the train. If the brake pipe pressure begins to drop as a result of the cold weather while you are en route, it may cause the brakes to begin to apply within the train on their own and this will drag you down to a stop. It may also cause for brakes not to release completely on some cars within the train which may also cause problems later in the trip.
NS’s guidelines as taken directly from one of their employee timetables:
Ambient Temperature Maximum number of cars
In degrees F based on fifty-foot cars
35 and up Full train and tonnage
32 to 34 195
29 to 31 180
26 to 28 170
20 to 25 155
15 to 19 145
10 to 14 135
5 to 9 125
0 to 4 115
-1 to -5 105
-6 to -10 95
-11 to -15 85
-16 to -25 75
Note: Long cars such as bi-level, tri-level, piggyback or hi-cube to be counted as two fifty foot cars in the above train lengths.
Bi and tri-levels are the covered, multi-level 93 foot flatcars that are used to transport finished auto parts. Hi-cubes are the 86 foot boxcars used for hauling such items as auto parts.
One of the biggest problems with train handling (aside from junk power or not enough decent working power) is the make up of the train. A train with a bunch of heavy loads on the very tail end or with a large block of empties right ahead of a big block of loads make for very tricky and careful handling. Empties want to slow down faster than the loads. It only makes sense, far less weight will tend to brake much easier and faster. This means you really need to be on top of your game when you have a large block of empties ahead of loads. Having a large block of loads on the very tail end of your train, such as coal, grain or potash presents opportunities for problems to occur and you need to be in full control of your skills and abilities to avoid problems.
When releasing the brakes on a train like this, there is also the potential for rapid run out of slack. The loads are slowing down as the empties are releasing. Even with careful handling of the throttle, those loads on the tail end are now acting like an anchor. Just enough of a tug from back there can create an excess of 450,000 lbs. of draft force; just enough to snap a knuckle.
The profile of the track (hills, dips, sages, hog backs, etc) make handling poorly made up trains a challenge. The ups and downs make for significant changes in slack. In what is known as undulating territory (segments of numerous rises and dips in the track), these trains can be an adventure.
One afternoon while coming south on an empty coal train, we get a call that "they" want us to stop and pick up fifty loads of grain at Paxton. In order to keep the single track railroad clear and open, it is decided by "they" to have us add these cars to the tail end of our train, behind the 108 empty coal hoppers. Needless to say, I questioned this illogic, but was told to do as instructed. With this task completed, I know I will now have what amounts to an accordion for a train. There will be constant and significant slack action going on within this train and lots of in train forces that I will not be able to control at all. There will be a great deal of slack running in and out depending upon the terrain over which I am operating and whenever I use the air for braking. It makes me think of that "Who" old song "Squeeze Box."
You remember the line, "They go in and out and in and out." Fortunately for me, I only had to run the train some twenty-four miles or so. And aside from feeling the constant significant changes of slack on our alleged river grade railroad, I managed to keep the works in one piece. The crew that would take it from Champaign to Centralia would get to have all the fun with it though.
And fun it was. I was told they got two knuckles with it. Getting a knuckle means breaking one of the coupler knuckles in between in between the cars. Too much draft force can cause this to occur. On a train made up like this one was, you will pretty much always be on the brink of too much draft force at various times, even if there are very good train handling techniques used. With the lack of dynamic braking available, the only choice was to use the air for slowing and stopping.
Trying to use the air on a train like has all those empties attempting to slow down far quicker than those fifty loads of grain on the tail end. You’ll have slack running in rather quickly. When releasing the brakes, they do not always release uniformly and certainly not instantly. So as they are releasing throughout the train, you now get slack starting to run out creating all that draft force. There are times that no matter what you do in regards to the method of handling the train, none of them are right. The loads are now dragging as the empties are releasing. You are using only enough throttle against all of this action as absolutely necessary. But still, the in-train forces can still outmatch the best of skills in this situation.
Having a great deal of loads behind empties make it very difficult to try to handle the train according to the methods the company desires. Enough run in of slack, known as buff force, can cause cars to either get popped off the rail or even to completely jack-knife. In either case, it is a derailment and depending upon the speed, can wreak total havoc on the operations. When a large concentration of loads runs in hard on a block of empties, something has to give. In some cases, the loads hit hard enough to slam you forward. This action creates a sudden run out of slack on the head end of the train creating a sudden surge in draft force. Enough draft force in the right spot and you suddenly discover the weakest knuckle in the train.
With the exception of intermodal trains (trailers and containers loaded onto flat, spine or well cars) the longer the train the greater the amount of slack action. Intermodal trains with the numerous, two, three, four and five pack cars generally have less slack than do manifest (mixed freight) and unit trains. This is a reason some railroads place restrictions on the lengths of manifest and unit trains. MoPac had a rule of 135 cars not to exceed a total train length of 8000 feet on manifest. Union Pacific adopted this rule in 1982 when they took over the MoPac and hold to it today.
Unit trains, even when long, are consistent with their weight. The weight is generally uniformly spread throughout the entire train. In most cases, the equipment is all the same as well. I much prefer a 15,000 ton unit train of coal, grain or potash over a manifest train of the same weight. In the unit train, all my cars are going to be loads as opposed to the manifest train where you have some of almost everything. Unit trains of mineral freight or grain also do not have any cushioned drawbars to reduce shock within the car to protect the load. The lack of such equipment helps minimize some of the slack action in unit trains as well.
On CNIC, we have no train length restriction rules, even in cold weather. I have operated manifest freight trains well in excess of 11,000 feet. I have also operated intermodal trains that have well exceeded 13,000 feet out here as well. We do have some weight restrictions though. Trains with trailing tonnage exceeding 13,000 are restricted to a maximum of 50 MPH.
Some railroads restrict heavy train based on a formula called tons per operative brake (TPOB). This is calculated by dividing the weight of the trailing tonnage by the total number of cars in the train. Take a train of ninety-two loads of potash weighing 12,000 tons; divide that figure by the number of cars (92) for a figure of just over 130 tons per operative brake. Many railroads have restrictions based on 100 tons or greater per operative brake. MoPac used to restrict us to 40 MPH when the TPOB was 100 or greater. For awhile, they had a restriction of 50 MPH when TPOB was between 95 and 99.
Conrail restricted all grain and mineral trains to a maximum speed of 40 MPH. MoPac also had a restriction for manifest trains containing thirty or more loaded cars of grain or mineral freight. Several other railroads also restrict manifest freights with a solid block of grain or mineral freight as well.
BNSF is a big subscriber to the use of Distributed Power (DP) for their trains. DP involves using locomotives placed within the train and/or at the tail end of the train in addition to the locomotives on the front or point of the train. These DP locomotives are remotely controlled by the Engineer in the locomotive on the point of the train. There are several ways to set up and operate these units within the train. Their use can make smoother brake applications and releases as well as greatly reduce in-train forces. It also allows for the safe operation of longer, heavier trains at higher speeds. While this is a great tool, it is not infallible and subject to radio interference, although it doesn’t seem to be as bad as the problems encountered with remote control engines being used in the yards for switching service.
Union Pacific also uses DP in some of their operations as well. Like BNSF, they have had pretty positive experiences with it and have suffered from the same communication interruptions that BNSF has dealt with as well.
Norfolk Southern and their Southern Railway predecessor have made use of radio controlled mid-train units for years. They are referred to as "radio" trains. The geography of the Southern’s right of way lead to the development and use of mid-train units. They needed assistance to get long, heavy trains up and down their hilly and curvy routes. Canadian Pacific is another major subscriber to mid-train units and were very instrumental along with Harris Electronics (now GE Harris) in getting "Locotrol" developed and placed into regular service. Louisville & Nashville and Burlington Northern also used mid-train units as well. These two lines had moderate success, but returned to using manned helper units. Santa Fe also used mid-train units in places like Texas where the hills can be torturous.
There are differences between how Southern and later NS and CP operate their mid-train units. Both lines have designated "mother" or "master" units. These units are equipped with the electronics and controls required to send commands to the remote helper or slave units. CP had a fleet of units equipped to receive these radio commands and operate in radio control. They could also be operated manually from the control stand within each unit. Instead of a fleet of dedicated helper units, Southern and later, NS used radio receiver cars. These were cars that look like mutated boxcars. Inside was the required radio receivers and equipment for remote service. There was a jumper connection that could be coupled to any locomotive and make it a mid-train helper unit. This method gives greater flexibility in that certain units do not have to be assigned to radio train territory to be helper units.
CN has adopted the TrainLink ES telemetry system from Wabtec Railway Electronics. This system mirrors on the tail end what the Engineer does on the head end in regards to handling of the air brakes. This system will allow for a service reduction of air through the end of train telemetry device (FRED) as well as the reduction from the head end. This allows for a more rapid and uniform application of the brakes throughout the train. It reduces both the in train forces and the total braking distance. In my experiences with the system, it does exactly what it claims to do and does so very well. The only drawback is that we hardly ever actually get the complete system on all of our train. While it accelerates the brake application the ES system cannot initiate a quick release of the train brakes once they are applied. But I have no complaints with this aspect.
You need a locomotive equipped with the ES hardware as well as a FRED with the ES technology. If either the head or tail end is not equipped with the feature, you do not get the benefit of the ES system. While CN has been a big purchaser of this technology, other railroads have been very slow to adopt it. In fact, I’ve yet to have a FRED from another railroad with the ES system.
With the ES system, you can use the air brake system to slow and stop your train more in compliance with the method prescribed in the Canadian National U.S. Air Brake and Train Handling Rules. This would include not having the throttle in a position higher than run 4. Even with the lack of regard to train make up we embrace here, the ES system can help to overcome some, but certainly not all of the problems associated with such a philosophy.
Stretch power braking was the method used for years by many railroads for years. Before the advent of dynamic brakes on locomotives and the development of better control valves on freight cars, the Engineers had to run a great deal of power against the train while braking. The fact that most cabooses did not come equipped with cushioned draft gear in those days, you were also trying to prevent a sudden change in slack which could be devastating to the boys in the back. This method of braking trains was passed to the following generations of railroaders. I learned this method when a Student Engineer in 1980.
Being that most of MoPac’s locomotives were not equipped with dynamic brakes, we power broke all the trains. We did have a fleet of 75 SD40-2C locomotives that were equipped with dynamic and also some former C&EI GP35 locomotives also equipped with dynamics, we generally didn’t see them very often, and when we did, there would usually only be one of these units in the consist. If it was the leader, it didn’t do much good to attempt to use this feature. It wasn’t until MoPac and Western Pacific merged with Union Pacific in December of 1982 that the attitude changed towards power braking. With the merger we now started to get UP and Western Pacific power, almost all which was equipped with dynamic brakes.
The Missouri Pacific Air Brake and Train Handling Instructions effective September 1, 1975 were in effect during most of my time at the MoPac. As issued, Section 4, Rule 404, Service Braking Of Freight Trains, was written as follows:
In making stops from fifteen or more miles per hour, the train brakes should be applied with an initial reduction of six to ten pounds, depending on make up and speed of the train, Initial reduction must be made before the throttle is reduced, keeping engine brake released. After brake pipe exhaust has closed and slack is adjusted, throttle must be reduced as train speed decreases; working just enough power to keep the slack adjusted.
If the initial reduction proves insufficient, further light reductions of two pounds each should be made, keeping engine brakes released. A brake pipe reduction should not be made until the brake pipe exhaust has closed on any brake pipe reduction previously made.
Braking should begin at a sufficient distance from the stop so that not more than twenty three pounds total reduction will make the stop. In making service slow down or stops the brake pipe pressure must not be reduced below forty pounds. Brake pipe pressures of less than forty pounds will not in most cases allow a rate of reduction fast enough to initiate an emergency application should it be necessary.
There was much more to the rule, but this portion is what is relevant to what we are talking about.
In August 1983, we were issued a supplement to the 1975 book. The new attitude was to use dynamic braking, when available for planned slow downs and stops. Being that we were now getting more and more units with this feature, it was decided to fully embrace the use of it.
Also in this supplement was a revision to service brake rule 404. It was changed to read as follows:
Reduce the throttle to a level that will keep the train stretched.
Make a minimum brake pipe reduction (6 to 8 pounds), keep the locomotive brakes released.
Again reduce the throttle to a level that will keep the slack stretched.
Make additional reductions to two or three pounds as needed.
As speed of train reduces and additional reductions are made, continue to reduce the throttle. A "rule of thumb" is to not let the amperage increase during the stop.
Notice though that in the case of both rules, the throttle settings were totally at the discretion of the Engineer operating the train. It was our judgment.
In today’s era of operations, the book tells us exactly how much throttle to use when service braking trains. They stress NOT to stretch power brake. What they have learned from simulators has been passed along to us. However, they are just that, simulators. They simulate, but do not duplicate the real world. There are situations that cannot be accomplished in the simulators like brake fade when brake shoes overheat. They also don’t calculate the rolling resistance of such things as flat spots on wheels, lateral motion of cars, open boxcar doors and head and cross winds. Open boxcars doors create a great deal of drag. Once upon a time back in the early 1980’s some railroads were maniacal about closing open doors to eliminate the drag and conserve fuel. Those days are gone. Poorly running power is also never taken into consideration with the simulations. While the operator of the simulator can set it up for problems with locomotives, it doesn’t allow for a locomotive that is simply not producing its normal horsepower due to such things as worn traction motor leads, bad load regulators, partially clogged fuel filters and the like. All of these can be factors. Now just put several of these problems into the equation.
In my experiences with simulators, I have learned that sometimes you can do things in the real world that you cannot do with a simulator. According to the data programmed into the system, its logic will cause a break in two based upon some of the actions you take where in real life, you keep the train in one piece. I was even told by one officer in charge at a simulator that I simply cannot attempt to do what I was doing in real life as it would not work never mid the fact I had done it numerous times with no problems and no worries about any developing.
I have used a fierce head wind to stop my train without using any air or dynamic brakes. I simply reduced the throttle and let the wind drag my train to a stop. Or, I have used the strong winds to work in assisting my braking efforts. Having a bunch of empty open top cars in the train like coal hoppers or gondolas can act as a parachute. Do that in your simulator.
How we used to brake trains in most cases was this; When planning a slow down or stop, we left the throttle in run 8, made a minimum reduction (6 to 8 pounds) of brake pipe pressure with the automatic brake valve. After the exhaust ceased, another reduction of 2 to 4 pounds would be made and when the exhaust ceased, the throttle would be reduced to run 7. As needed and required, additional reductions of the brake pipe would be made and the throttle gradually reduced as needed until the train was about to stop.
Normally, depending upon the situation, when only slowing and not stopping, just the two reductions of the brake pipe and the reduction of one or two notches of throttle would be made. Possibly, more throttle reductions would occur if you needed to reduce your speed significantly, like say 60 MPH to 10 MPH.
Where you begin braking for your stop or slow down are also factors. No two trains handle alike as there are so many variables with each and every one. Therefore, you cannot begin your reduction of speed to slow or stop at the very same place with every train. I have had one official in my career try to tell me different. He was adamant about this. I attempted to explain to him that I could wait far longer with a train of 126 empty coal hoppers than I could with a 12 or 14,000 ton manifest train. Why would I want to begin slowing down a very light weight and good braking train so early? Isn’t one of the purposes of our job to get the train over the road in a timely manner?
You don’t want to begin slowing down too late as well as start too early. There is a tremendous amount of judgment involved in deciding when to begin the reduction or stop. With some trains, especially after you have acquired the feel for how they will brake, you can wait on the slow down a bit. Others, you need to start earlier as they don’t feel like they want to stop. There is no worse a feeling than that of approaching a stop signal with the brakes applied and the train doesn’t feel like it is slowing down.
One method I liked to use with trains consisting of all, or mostly all empties, such as empty coal or grain trains. This would be waiting until the last possible second to begin a slow down. For an example, I will demonstrate slowing an empty northbound grain train for the 30 MPH restriction at Gilman. At 60 MPH with the throttle in run 8 at about one mile from the restriction, I would make a ten pound reduction of the brake pipe keeping the engine brakes released. The throttle would remain in run 8 and the train speed would begin to drop. As the speed reached approximately 37 MPH (depending upon train size, if the train was longer, it might be 40 to 42 MPH) I would release the brakes and drop the throttle from run 8 right to run 6. By the time I reached the speed restriction area, the train speed would be right at 30 MPH and the train brakes would be completely released. This is referred to as grandstanding. I’m no fool though, I know when and where and can do this as well as when and where not to do it as well.
I used to perform this type of braking with intermodal trains as well, only beginning the slow down a little sooner. With a very short intermodal train, I could wait for the last moment though.
Braking trains in this manner made life easy for me, kept my overall speed higher and over the road time shorter. It was also fun as sometimes it would really scare the hell out of some Conductors as they did not believe I could get the train slowed down in time.
When I call the brake applications reductions, they are just that, reductions in the air pressure in the brake pipe. We use a charged system. Charging the system releases the brakes. Reducing the pressure causes the brakes to apply. When George Westinghouse first invented the air brake system, the air was put into the system to apply the brakes. The slang term "putting the air to them" was derived from this system. Some people still use that term to this day.
It was soon learned this original design was not a failsafe system. Should the train come uncoupled or break in two, it might not be known. There was nothing in the design to stop either portion of the train should a separation occur. The charged system was developed to remedy this situation. If the train comes apart, an air hose or train line on a car breaks, or some component of the air brake system breaks or ruptures, the entire train loses its air going into emergency. This prevents either portion of the train from just rolling freely. With numerous improvements made to this system over time, the charged system continues to be used all these years later. And with the charged system comes a dictionary of slang terms including "lost the air" when there is an undesired emergency (UDE) application of the brakes.
On the subject of emergency applications, train make up can be a huge factor in the event of a UDE. When an emergency application of the brakes occurs, whether intentional or undesired, you lose virtually all control of slack. There are a few things you can do in regards to using the engine brakes under this situation, but overall, the train is now at the mercy of such things as the design of the system and the laws of physics. Trains have derailed AFTER an emergency application or broken in two owing to train make up. Once again, placement of a large block of empties ahead of a group of heavy loads is a factor.
Starting a train can be an event unto itself at times too. Once again, in many cases, I do not do it the way the simulator wants as it wastes too much time and fuel.
When I start a train out of Markham Yard going south, Kankakee coming north or Otto or South Otto going south, Paxton coming north and Rantoul coming north, my train is sitting on the side of a hill. Once again, so much for that thought of Illinois being a table top with river grades. With a big, heavy train, you need to really work on it to get them started and rolling.
Markham Yard is on the side of a grade. In A Yard where many southbound trains originate, there is a twenty-two foot difference in elevation from the south to north end. It is also an ascending grade from the yard out to the main tracks and down to Flossmoor where the track levels a bit and then drops down towards Vollmer Road. Kankakee is also steep as we are coming out of the Kankakee River Valley. The other mentioned places also have fair grades for starting a train against.
At Markham and Kankakee, I normally open the throttle to run 1 with the engine brakes fully applied to establish loading of amperage on the traction motors. I then advance the throttle right to run 4 or 5 depending upon what’s behind me for trailing tonnage. Then, I gradually release the engine brakes so as not to have the power lurch forward and possibly break the train in two. Once the power is pulling against the train, I wait and see if the train will begin to move. If not, I give the throttle another notch, and watch. I have had to go all the way to run 8 in some instances to get the train to begin to roll. When doing this though, I have to be extremely careful as I may get a lurch from the power. In some cases, the wheels will start to slip as both the amperage and tractive effort, are very high. If necessary, I will work the throttle back and forth between two notches to prevent wheel slip but gain the most amperage possible to start the train and advance the speed.
Once the train starts to move, if necessary, I will begin to use the sanders to help the wheels bite the rail and prevent wheel slip. Never, do I start the sanders until the train is moving. If the train is still sitting with the sanders running, it starts to pile on the rail making just one more hurdle to overcome.
And never, do I jerk on them as this too, can break the train into pieces. I know a Trainmaster on the Wisconsin Central who was playing Engineer one evening. He managed to get a knuckle in the yard while starting his 40-car train. Boy, did we give it to him over this episode. Of course, he had plenty of excuses.
Then there are individual car restrictions. Many railroads have restrictions on certain types of cars, on certain trains or at certain speeds. Empty bulkhead flats (flatcars with the large bulkheads on either end) tend to have a great deal of lateral (side to side) motion when they are empty. So do certain types of gondola cars. As a result of this action, there have been derailments reported owing to this condition. Most railroads have speed restrictions of 40 to 50 MPH on these types of cars when they are empty. MoPac had a policy of keeping such cars off the higher priority manifest trains so as not to slow them down unnecessarily.
In Canada, CN has numerous restrictions on certain types of cars. The paperwork generated for our trains uses the CN mainframe and these restrictions show up on our lists and wheel reports. In most instances it will say "Canada only" on the restricted car. In other situations it may not have this notation. A rather vaguely worded statement the CNIC Special Instructions tells us that generally, unless the car number in question is part of a group of cars listed within the Special Instructions as having a specific restriction, the speed limit indicated on the wheel report is to be disregarded. I have inquired to the "proper authority" as required by the rules when not certain of a specific rule or special instruction about this situation. I was told exactly what I wrote here, if it is not on that list in the Special Instructions, it does not apply to us. I live by those instructions.
Several railroads have maintained restrictions dealing with the placement of empty flatcars. I can recall L&N having a restriction that prohibited their placement any closer than five cars from the engines on all but intermodal (trailer/container) trains. Empty flats are lighter than most other cars and the possibility exists for a derailment caused by buff force (slack bunched). All that tonnage up against this car when in dynamic braking can be brutal. Whenever I have an empty flat next to the engine with 10,000 tons or more of train behind that car, unless I really need to, I try stay away from dynamic braking to avoid the potential for problems. When the train is between 8 and 10,000 tons, I’ll use the dynamic, but may avoid it in certain situations.
There is also a long/short car issue. Most railroads prohibit the placement of a short car, usually less than forty feet between two longer cars, generally more than seventy-five feet. There are dynamics that occur especially in curves and short turnouts that can cause the short car to be popped off the rails.
In all of my experiences at all the railroads I have worked for, I take all the knowledge I have gained from each and every one of them and use it all in my daily operating mode. But being that we don’t carry all the restrictions here that other railroads do, I comply with the way CN want us to do things with regards to speed restrictions. If it isn’t in the book, unless there are some extenuating circumstances to prevent it otherwise, it goes track speed. However, that same experience has taught me that even though we don’t have many of the restrictions other lines do, it is good to know and be versed in them. There are times when knowing what I have learned comes in very handy. This knowledge has very likely kept me out of a great deal of trouble over the years. It has also helped save the railroads who have employed me from derailment clean ups, especially ones that could be considered my fault.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Visit the BLE Division 10 Website at http://div10.tripod.com/homepage.html
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2002 by JD Santucci
Everything but the N is still running to Coney, right? I want to get some last pics of West 8th tomorrow. Especially the F going around that lovely turn.
The 8th is the changeover date, methinks.
You might as well get pics of the whole complex. W trains will soon be the only train going to Stillwell. It's kind of odd that the West End platforms are on a Steel el structure and the rest is on concrete.
By the way, will those cool semaphore signals at the West End bumber blocks remain there or taken out and reinstalled after the renovation? And are they even still there?
>>By the way, will those cool semaphore signals at the West End bumber blocks remain there or taken out and reinstalled after the renovation? And are they even still there?<<
The semaphore signal was removed. Don't know if it will return when Stillwell reopens.
Bill "Newkirk"
NYCTA's website said the 8th, but I don't trust them. The ARE rebuilding it, right? Or will the run out of money and keep the trains the way the are? :O
Its this Sunday when the changes start,there's no doubt about that. so get your final ride on the Q and F to/from CI because after Saturday,it'll be too late.
Suggestion: Ride the Wonder Wheel and take photos of the Stillwell complex from the Wheel. Use the stationery cars to get the most height.
--Mark
Another photo from my collection. Tell me what you guys think.
As noted before It comes out on the preview so I guess its fine.
Anthony
Nice photo! Where is it?
:-) Andrew
Looks like 85th St-Forest Parkway (or whatever that stop is called) on the J line...
Cleanairbus
How come there was a fog IN the subway? Was it smog?
Looks like it just rained, which sometimes causes that foggy effect
How come there was a fog IN the subway
An elevated station gets the same foggy weather as the neighborhood around it :)
Must be the dreaded soft focus filter.:)
Nice photo! Where is it?
:-) Andrew
I took the photo at about 5 AM on a Sunday coming home from a night out. It was a foggy/ misty morning so I had my camera and I took the photo. Its on the 'J' Line Forest Parkway Station. Yeah I have about 2000 photos in the subway but I put up what I like the most
Nice shot. I didn't recognize it as Forest Parkway because of the dark walls. Was that primer, or was the station that color for a while? I remember that station in it's "graffiti" scheme, then beige with Red trim in the early 90's (then didn't get there for a while). The last time I was there was a month ago and I think it was beige with green trim.
That red paint was primer. It's now in the standard dark green/beige paint scheme.
That's my home station. Judging by the in-process paint job, it was taken about a year ago.
Another missing picture, and the following notice:
Sony ImageStation is currently unavailable for use.
The site downtime is only temporary
and is part of our ongoing efforts to improve the
ImageStation service for your better enjoyment.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
Thank you for your continued support,
The ImageStation Team
Methinks you might need to find a more reliable photo service.
Everybody else saw it. And Webshots doesnt work for embedding photos (Or so I've been told). So maybe it was just a matter of timing on your part thats all.
Yup, no problem seeing the photo.
No, not everyone else saw it... I didn't even get a message, just a blank screen when trying to access the photo directly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That msut have been it. Great mood shot!!
Must have been a temporary thing when you hit the server - worked the last time I tried, and it was just there again now.
Thanks you guys...that makes me feel a lot better. Off to work I go. And moe photos to come.
Anthony
I see the picture. Very good shot.
A copy of it now resides in my ScreenSaver! : )
Here is a postcard currently up for bids on eBay (not by me):
The description states that this incident occurred on 9/11/1905 - does anyone have any details - What happened? Casualties?, etc.
wowzers, a postcard for a tragedy. Imagine the hell people would go through trying to do that in this age with something like the 9/11 incident or a plane crash.
About the turn of the century, there was a brief fad of immediate newsy postcards. They were printed and sold immediately after the event, more quickly than waiting for our nightly 10 p.m. murders-and-disaster show on channel five. I saw a postcard depicting a storefront window destroyed by a deer in Winsted, Connecticut. The sender wrote, "This is what happened yesterday on Main Street." The postmarks seem to indicate that the post card was mailed in the morning in Winsted and reached the recipient in Norfork that afternoon. The el crash post card falls into the "news" category rather than selling disaster photos to tourists for years.
Precisely ... and back in those days, it was a way to provide distant relatives and friends with illustrated information of what was going on since newspapers were not widely circulated "out of town" nor did we have the likes of TV news. So those cards were often the only way of sharing "news from home" with others.
Sorta like "email this article to a friend" today. :)
9/11/05? wow...... nuff said.
Yep, them black helicopters be swinging low. IT'S A CONSPIRACY, MAN! (just busting)
hey ''kirk'' hows it hangin'?
Ummm ... a bit to the left today, thanks for asking. Seriously though, ***I WAS IN THE POOL!!!*** :)
YO - KEVIN ---(MOOOooser)
----Heh heh heh---NOW, --you KNOW and remember that I posted a slew of photos of THAT wreck from my collection - onto my board as webmaster at NYC Transit Modelers Group about 5 or so months ago --and you saw them as a member there...including the photo shown in the postcard...and I wrote the story of how it happened, who the towerman (Gorman) and motorman (Kelly) was, how many died and the fine particulars of the error of both the towerman first and the motorman second for not catching the incorrect lineup for HIS route...basically they both shared equal blame. That photo group location is listed in my Database menu file at my site.
Just a strange coincidence it happened in the early morning (nearly 8AM) rush hour on 9/1/1905 on the route of the el at 53rd & 9th and the WTC happened between 8 & 9 AM at the route of the SAME El at Greenwich & Courtland Streets 9/11/2001.
The 6th Avenue El is branching off into 53rd Street at the right of the photo...FYI --
regards - Unca Joe
NYCTMG - NYCMTS - NYCMTA
I am NOT re-writing THAT whole story here
Is there a site where one could read or find out about subway accidents in the last 100+ years? So many incidents have happened over the years. Malbone St, Williamsburg Bridge, Steinway St, Roosevelt Ave, Times Square ect. But I'd like to see a site where I can see them all at one time.
This site has some accidents.
http://www.ntsb.gov/railroad/railroad.htm
In Syan Fischlers' book, 'The Subway', there are nearly 60 pages dedicated to Disasters that have occurred on the system. This would be a good place to start
> with something like the 9/11 incident or a plane crash.
You must not get out much because every little bodega and gift shop in NYC that has a postcard rack has 9/11 disaster postcards. Towers burning, towers falling, rescue workers, ground zero cleanup pictures, etc.
yeah.went down last weekend to the WTC,AND WAS BOMBARDED WITH books postcards ,everything else '' 10 dolla for ju, my freend,,spacial price...10 dolla''. Man .. that got under my skin! then there was some cats handing out postcards,sayin' ''we NOT TRYING TO FREAK YOU OUT,but.....''' will you BITE ME already? getouttaheah,ya perv!
And last year before 9/11 the same postcards were selling about 6/$1.00 at most tourist traps in NYC.
I was unaware, but to be honest I don't really pay much attention to those souveneir shops.
It's all over Canal street. :-(
At first I thought it might be a pic of a derailment on the BRT 5th Ave El in Brooklyn. I had read somewhere about one that had the residents there amused one hot summer's night about that time.
That was in 1900.
Dumb Question: (Since I really never go to EBAY)
Why would they put the picture on EBay? I mean anyone can save it and print it.
You can save a copy of it for free. But eBay is sellng the actual original postcard.
For postcard collectors, it doesn't matter if they can get the "photo" for free, they would want the original postcard, so it doesn't really matter if they post a scan of the postcard.
In brief:
The motorman thought that the track was set to go straight, but for some reason the switch was activated, for the train to go onto the 53rd Street spur toward the 6th Avenue line. Thus, the train was going too fast into the switch and the derailment occurred.
Source: Stan Fischler's book about the subways.
Yes, the accident occurred on Sept 11 (!!), 1905. A southbound 9th Avenue El train left 59th Street. Unknown to the motorman, the towerman at the 53d Street junction set the switches for a diverging move - a 90 degree left turn onto the 53rd Street for a 6th Avenue train. The motorman noticed the error too late - and when he attempted an emergency stop the derailment occurred.
As another poster correctly noted Stan Fischler's book The Subway has a detailed description of this accident.
Think of a southbound A train leaving Columbus Circle and then suddenly rerouted onto the D train route and you'll get the idea of what happened - except on an elevated structure without the benefit of walls to contain the derailed cars.
Think of a southbound A train leaving Columbus Circle and then suddenly rerouted onto the D train route and you'll get the idea of what happened
Like that accident at Columbus Circle in 1978 where R-10 3333 was scrapped on the spot? (A handbrake was set by a vandal, this had nothing to do with misaligned track switches).
--Mark
See Sept 11th has always been a bad day. I believe the last Jamaica train to 168th Street on the ole Jamaica el also last ran on ----- September 11th. (1977 I think)
Sept 11th 1977 was indeed the last day of regular service to 168th St.
Just for my own curiousity, is the image showing south at 6 Ave and 53 St or north at 9 Ave and 53 St?
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/06/nyregion/06RAIL.html
"Microprocessors control everything right down to the toilet," David J. Elliott, the railroad's general manager, said yesterday during a demonstration for the news media.
Uh-oh. Recipe for disaster. Looks like they are going to have an Acela style farce where the toilet doors won't open because "the computer crashed".
"You're also going to get a better ride," Mr. Bauer said. The M-7's have compressed-air springs.
More uh-oh. Although British Rail rolling stock has had compressed air springs for about 15 years now, they are known as a high maintenance item. Especially if it bursts or leaks, and you have a speed restriction on the stock because of it... fun fun fun. However, I am confident that LIRR would be stepping up mainteannce. After all, they can now get Federal $ to do it, so why not? :)
"It really looks like a train of the future," said Barbara Josepher, chairwoman of the railroad's Commuter's Council, an official advisory board.
Uh-oh No. 3.
Trains of the past, constructed brand new, usually do better than trains of the future. Let's see about trains that were hailed as the trains of the future in the past: The Union Pacific Gas-Turbines, The Fairbanks-Mourse Trainmeister, The GM Aerotrain, the Skyrovsky Aircraft Turbotrain, the PRR Metroliner, the Acela.
AEM7
The GG1, the J4 Hudson, the TGV, Eurostar, Shinkansen, EMD F unit, GP7/9, SD40...
-Hank
Trains of the past, constructed brand new, usually do better than trains of the future
Did you get this from the Jersey Mike Fact Database?
M-7s will have railfan windows!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hehehe that was a shock wasn't it??!!
Did you get this from the Jersey Mike Fact Database?
I think Jersey Mike gets his info from AEM7's fact database. But yes, it's based on years of practical experience. Let's look at the trains that Hank Einstein listed as "trains of the future":
The GG1 was in fact a scaled-up version of the P-5a -- not really a train of the future, more of a second-generation development based on proven technology. The PRR took a lot of losses for converting the P-5 to the P-5a. But in those days, it really didn't matter.
the TGV went through several "flop" stages before it became the train of the future. For instance, there was a gas-turbine prototype of the TGV that was quietly scrapped before they built the batch for squadron service. There were various 24000 class locomotives which were developed before the TGV that were flops. It was only through all the collective experience of developing high speed electric locos and the gas turbine loco that the TGV was possible.
Eurostar was never hailed as a train of the future.
Shinkansen again underwent a lot of development. The stock was vaguely based on the earlier limited expresses, some of which were already running at 100 km/h on conventional tracks.
EMD F unit was the only one that was truly revolutionary, although we might even suggest that in fact it was based on the earlier streamliners that had the Winton engine.
"Train of the Future" usually doesn't look like a train of the future -- it usually looks like a modified version of something that's already been tried and tested. Trains that look like trains of the future is usually a flop, but they can usually be improved upon. One questions whether it is logical to order so many examples of M-7's if they were truly revolutionary. On the other hand, I would accept arguments that they aren't truly revolutionary.
AEM7
Hank Einstein
Freudian slip? :)
--Mark
No, he just can't read.
-Hank
The EMD F and E units (and the later GP units) weren't really revolutionary from a technological perspective, but from a quality and concept perspective. The same can sort of be said for the GG-1. The F and E units were pre-dated by many streamlined prototypes and trial trains. Not only that, they were built on about 10-15 years of experimental work in the field of diesel, gas and oil electric locomotives. Nobody seems to remember the early brutes because they were ugly black boxes with a diesel engine inside. EMD (nee-EMC) simply married a quality engine with a quality electric system and them made a quality locomotive. Even the whole streamlined concept was stolen from existing railroad trends with steam trains (most every RR built a streamliner some time in the 30's). Since a diesel was easier than steam to shroud with sheet metal, the concept naturally was applied uniformly to them because it was not only trendy, but extremely easy. Same goes with the GP units. They were a tried and true locomotive what simply implemented the "hood unit" operation concept. EMD did not invent new technologies with the E,F and GP units, they just made a well designed quality product using the technology of "today". Same goes for the GG-1.
Personally I don't think that the M-7's are the least bit revolutionary. Everything today (from ACELA's to R142/3's) is already computer controled. Even the M-7 outer design is part of a broader MTA Motif.
How bout the AEM-7?
Admittedly the AEM7 was an outgrowth of the RC4 from Sweden, and the RC4 was the offspring of development work done on the RC3,2, and 1, but the AEM7 has been a smashing success, with none of the problems that have plagued it's amtrak predecessors, or replacements for that matter. The RC1 was the first electric locomotive to make use of Thrystors (Yes I know some EMUs in Britain also used them), and the AEM7 introduced them to America. The AEM7 was never hailed as the train of the future, it simply beat out the French X996. There must be a lesson there, the AEM7 was certainly groundbreaking, especially in the US, but it was introduced with seemingly little fanfare. Indeed, the AEM7 recieved the ignominious moniker 'Swedish Meatball.' Maybe if we just start ignoring new equipment, or decry it all as taking away our beloved older equipment, we'll end up with perfectly functioning trains. C'mon, it's just crazy enough to work.
More uh-oh. Although British Rail rolling stock has had compressed air springs for about 15 years now, they are known as a high maintenance item. Especially if it bursts or leaks, and you have a speed restriction on the stock because of it... fun fun fun.
Weird. The M-1s use airbag suspension too. If the bag bursts, the train can still run without restriction, as per the manual on them. The ride truely sucks, though.
As I said in another post BUDD use Airbag suspension on its Poineer III, Silverliner units and Amfleets (ie anythign on a Poineer III truck). I think that someone in the MTA has been sold a load of bull by sales reps.
MTA is well aware of the current state of the industry, Mikee. The question is, what are the pitfalls of current airbag systems and how did Bombardier offer to improve on the design?
I am sure SOME people in the MTA know about the surrent state of technology, but I am sure that those in charge of things don't have a clue where their own assholes are let alone transit industry technology. Some rep from from Bombardier told some group of suits that the new cars would ride nicely because they have air springs and the suits replied something like "Air springs! You mean just like those running shoes? Oh cool!"
Or the problem might also be in the press office. If you want to make the M-7 sound better just keep touting all its features and just never mention that the old M-1's had many of the same ones. The general public dosen't know what an air spring is and they sure as hell don't know that the M-1's have them. If you tell people about air springs being on a vehicle and if you make the feature sound like it's new, the placebo effect will kick in and the riders will honestly believe that they are getting a better ride. It's all pretty standard marketing tricks.
The question is, did they improve the design or just utilize marketing tricks. If we apply Occam's Razor then we arrive that it is only just a marketing trick.
Air Cushion springs were used on the BUDD Silverliner II's and were later equipped on subsuquent NJT/SEPTA Arrow/Silverliner units so the technology is nothing new.
Also notice how that the article said the M-7's would last 30 years. The M-1's will have been in service almost 40 years when they are retired. The ACMU 1100's have already hit the 40 mark. The brand new cars have a design life of 25% less when they are built with 40 years more modern technology. There's progress for ya.
"Also notice how that the article said the M-7's would last 30 years. The M-1's will have been in service almost 40 years when they are retired. The ACMU 1100's have already hit the 40 mark. The brand new cars have a design life of 25% less when they are built with 40 years more modern technology. There's progress for ya."
You're taking that out of context. The M1's did not have a design life of 40 years; it was hard work and diligence by LIRR maintenance crews that kept them on the rails. Had LIRR been given the money, it would have replaced them sooner.
The M7's are designed to last 30 years, but if a fiscal crisis looms in 2030, the LIRR will find a way to run them another 10.
Budd built products have an indefinite design life. It was only poor treatment on behalf of the LIRR that made them get this bad in the first place. The M-1's and M-2's on MNRR are in far better shape as are the SEPTA Silverliners.
If people were smart they would rebuild the Budd units with new electricals etc, but no, they just have to have NEW cars. CDoT is smart. They are overhauling their 1972 vintage M-2's and project them lasting until at least 2015.
"Budd built products have an indefinite design life."
Nothing has an indefinite design life, Mikee, and the Budd cars are no exception. Budd was confident the cars would last for decades, and they did. MTA is ordering cars from a manufacturer who is still here to service them.
"If people were smart they would rebuild the Budd units with new electricals etc, but no, they just have to have NEW cars. CDoT is smart. They are overhauling their 1972 vintage M-2's and project them lasting until at least 2015."
That's not their whole fleet. New Bombardiers (or Kawasakis, or Alstoms) are going to show up there too, ultimately.
It's not cost-effective, long-term, to keep old stuff running when you can barely get parts for it. CDoT knows that (but Mikee doesn't). They're applying a band-aid now but when they have sufficient budget those old cars will be gone too.
Jersey Mike said:"If people were smart they would rebuild the Budd units with new electricals etc, but no, they just have to have NEW cars. CDoT is smart. They are overhauling their 1972 vintage M-2's and project them lasting until at least 2015."
You said: That's not their whole fleet. New Bombardiers (or Kawasakis, or Alstoms) are going to show up there too, ultimately.
My response: Ultimately new trains will show up on the New Haven Line, but not for another 10 years. Personally, I am tired of the old-style trains, but there is nothing wrong with them. If it is cost effective to overhaul, then do it. If not, replace the cars.
BTW, M-7s will be on the Hudson and Harlem Lines, in addition to the LIRR. -Nick
A sensible post.
So I've been told, by informed sources, that structural problems are showing up on the high-mileage Amfleet I's used on the Northeast Corridor. Guess who built those? A certain Budd Company of Philadelphia. Those Amfleets are only some 25 years old.
Still, little reason to order new cars when old cars are not yet developing structural problems. The truth is, no one knows when the structural problems will develop, not even people at Budd or those who maintain them. The problem with new cars is that those so-called new computer technology are proving less reliable than their old relay counterparts. The relays were maintenance intensive, but they work. I'll be willing to accept a computer that works (like the R-142A's), but it's natural (and correct) to be suspicious of state-of-art technology. Only when state-of-art becomes reliable will it become the state-of-practice.
AEM7
If the chassis is sound often the cars are still serviceable.
But I return to one of my main complaints: should the transit authority really be in the parts design and manufacturing business? For cars whose manufacturers are long gone (the R44, R46, Redbirds, M1s Amfleet 1's, Almond Joys (OK - those are gone now) ) there are operating parts still in the market but many that are not.
If the chassis is sound often the cars are still serviceable.
Amfleets had monocoque body construction. If there is a crack in any of the structural members that aren't easily repairable (e.g. by welding, drilling, or replacement), then the whole car is condemed. The reason for going monocoque are twofold: (1) safety (2) lighter-weight.
But I return to one of my main complaints: should the transit authority really be in the parts design and manufacturing business?
In fact, there is little reason why not, if they are a major user of a particular fleet type. The transit industry only has itself to blame for the demise of the carbuilders. But even if the carbuilders were in business, they will only carry spare parts inventory for so long. After that, even if you order from the manufacturer, they still have to make it from scratch. Whether the St Louis Car Company does this, or the NYCTA does this, it's going to cost just as much. Bringing in those costs under the NYCTA roof may well make it cheaper. Even if St Louis Car was still aronud, they would not be making NYCTA subway car parts for anyone except the NYCTA.
What is really needed is a standard transit vehicle, not all those custom designs.
AEM7
"But even if the carbuilders were in business, they will only carry spare parts inventory for so long. After that, even if you order from the manufacturer, they still have to make it from scratch."
That's a matter of how you write the procurement contract in the first place. The manufacturer is better set up for that. American Airlines will service its own planes up to a point - then Boeing takes over.
"After that, even if you order from the manufacturer, they still have to make it from scratch. Whether the St Louis Car Company does this, or the NYCTA does this, it's going to cost just as much."
Not necessarily. The TA's mission is to move people, not build trains. While basic maintenance can and is done in the TA's shops, manufacturing discontinued parts is not something the TA is set up to do as efficiently. A manufacturer is usually better able to do so. But that manufacturer has to be around.
Whether the TA or a TA contracted third party, when, not if, the OEM vendors quit, discontinue production, the parts still must be produced.. OF COURSE, if the parts in question were off the shelf common use items the issue would be moot.
RonInBayside: The TA's mission is to move people, not build trains. While basic maintenance can and is done in the TA's shops, manufacturing discontinued parts is not something the TA is set up to do as efficiently.
That's precisely the attitude NOT to have. The Pennsylvania built all their own trains in Altonna Shops and they are probably the most efficient steam builder in the Northeast -- better than Alco, better than Baldwin. In diesel days, they even assembled diesel kits made by EMD and produced fleets with better MTBF than EMD's own. If heavy maintenance and construction could be done in house, it should be done in house. It retains the expertise, and aligns stakeholder interests without having to write a complex contract.
In the case of the aircraft maintenance, it makes sense for the aircraft manufacturer to do it because they service many common types from different airlines, achieving economies of scale. Transit car servicing is a different kind of market. Each system has a different design (unlike in airlines where airlines share common designs) and thus only small economies of scale could be attained. Better done in-house. If each airline flew a different design of airplane with different parts, everyone would do their maintenance and construction in house.
david vartanoff: OF COURSE, if the parts in question were off the shelf common use items the issue would be moot.
Yes, this is really an issue of standardization. If off-the-shelf parts could be used in a train, it should be used. However most of the consumable parts in a train isn't off-the-shelf, such as relays resistant to vibration, and specialist cast/machined metal parts.
AEM7
AFAIK, PRR bought many cars, locos from outside vendors as well as building at Altoona. PRR experts may correct but EMD did most of its own assembly in the era when PRR existed. IT IS interesting to look back at which RR's continued to shop and rebuild in house versus simply trading into the builders. AYSF's Cleburne CF7's are still running on some short lines, SP's "remanufactured" SD45's,IC's "Paducah's" the same.
Most of the previous RR shop complexes are ether closed or operated by outsiders. Does anyone here have a summary of what cars were either originally built or rehabbed in Hornell at the once E-L(nee DL&W) shops? It is an interesting question how much the 'operator' can save pet engine/car serviced versus the aded overhead of the operatopr's organization/stockholders. It is also instructive to visit some of these shops seeing major changes as the work patterns are tuned up. (I have toured the Cumberland ND Diesel and car shops three times in twenty+ years.)
AFAIK, PRR bought many cars, locos from outside vendors as well as building at Altoona. PRR experts may correct but EMD did most of its own assembly in the era when PRR existed.
That is true. PRR is probably the only RR to buy EMD kits and assemble in its own shops. Often on a big prosurement contract, PRR will split the order between in-house and EMD, and pitted the two fleets against each other like R-142 vs R-142A.
ATSF's Cleburne CF7's are still running on some short lines,
That's amazing. Those were rebuilt F-7's -- a 1950s product, predating even the GP-7.
It is an interesting question how much the 'operator' can save pet engine/car serviced versus the aded overhead of the operatopr's organization/stockholders.
That's not the real issue. Perhaps there are real savings, but there are also lots of intangible benefits. The employees of PRR learned a great deal about EMD power by having to build them. Railroads in the Far East persistently had this problem; they did not know how to BUILD the foreign power they were buying but they had been trained on how to MAINTAIN them and only maintain. More often than not the maintenance manuals are inadequate, etc. Acela tried to overcome this problem by bringing Bombardier people onto Amtrak premises with a complex DBM (design build maintain) contract, but that only led to a them-vs-us mentality at the Boston shops. Amtrak engineers inspected Bombardier's work and failed them on every possible contractual point. Much better if Amtrak acquired the expertise and built the Acela sets themselves.
The other issue is that given Amtrak people are building trainsets for Amtrak crew -- so the management theory says, they are more likely to care about what happens to their equipment in the field. It's probably true. Southwest rarely outsources any of its maintenance, compared to Critter (I forget their real name) who outsourced everything.
Larger companies with different operating arms are harder to manage, but if managed properly, the rewards are greater.
I have toured the Cumberland ND Diesel and car shops
Where do you live!? Do you mean MD? So you live in the DC area? I'm not nitpicking, but I don't know NP and GN territory well enough to know whether there is a Cumberland ND.
AEM7
l. I have regularly posted that, and this website also indicates under contributors (BART text) that I live in the Bay Area (Oakland)
2 You are correct, though, I meant Maryland--I hate typing. these are of course the shops of the BALTIMORE & OHIO America's first RR.
3. Now for the serious stuff. It is ironic that the major RR's mostly farmed out locomotive maintenance over the last two decades--GE LMX and EMD Oakway on BN, and I believe one group of EMD's on Conrail before the split.
As to the chlldish nit picking by the ATK workers in BOS, this reminds me of San Francisco city Electrical Inspectors who ask which local you belong to before looking at the work. I am not convinced either way about the in house, out source issue in the abstract.
Looking at some other facets of car building/quality issues, think about the CAF geniuses doing the current order for DC or our friends Breda. CAF got 'caught' substituting a lower grade of steel axle--simply dishonesty, and also doing such poor assembly in Spain, that further subassembly QC has been impkemented. Earlier Breda cars for DC were assembled by the Beech Grove ATK shops--apparently they are fine. The rush to divest shops and shop forces by the RR's may have had more to do with the all too pervasive next quarter bottom line figures AND undoubtedly a desire to get rid of union workers.
(FWIW the NS shutdown of Altoona/Juniata notwithstanding a crooked Federal Court decision was a violation of the merger agreement IMHO)
The LIRR M-1s are experiencing cracking trucks, the interiors are shot, and the propulsion equipment is a dinosaur. I've heard from a few sources the main wiring harness on them has never been replaced because it's too damm complicated and nobody's sure how to....
They're acient cars, and they've done well over the years, but it really is time to move on. 40 years is likely the practical limit to how long you'd want a car anyway.
Sure they were state of the art when new, but today, switched resistance DC propulsion isn't even made by anyone, and nobody wants to use relay logic beyond excruciatingly simple stuff anyway. Everything on those cars is acient and the bodies are starting to get beat up anyway.
At this point, stripping the cars down, getting new trucks, and doing a magnaflux on the whole body, plus everything else, would like cost as much as a new car anyway.
>>The LIRR M-1s are experiencing cracking trucks, the interiors are shot, and the propulsion equipment is a dinosaur.<<
My engineer friend told me that the M-1's have vacuum tubes used in some sort of circuitry. Vacuum tubes are also dinosaurs !
Bill "Newkirk"
You know that some high end audio cards for computers have vacuum tubes on them because pure digital devices lack sufficient clarity.
That would be surprising, though. I know the Silverliners had tubes in them, but the M-1's likely didn't, since there was no real high power control gear. Maybe in the comm or cab signal stuff.
They did have ICs in them.
And I wouldn't say tubes are dinosaurs, back in the mid-late 60's, there were certain applications that transistors just wouldn't work. Most color TV sets had them even into the 70's in the sweep circuits, because there was no solid state device that could handle the power. Transmitters had them too, again, because there weren't solid state devices that could cut it.
Heck, Sylvania's firat all solid state color TV (E-01) didn't arrive until '70 or so. Prior to that, their TVs were a mix of tube, transistors, and IC technology. Oddly, the chroma section on the D-12 chassis was solid state, except for a lone 6GH8 as the 3.5 Mhz oscillator. And everyone used the 6GH8 to do this too. There must have ben a billion 6GH8s out there back then....
Even the military used tubes then, IIRC, some missles had them even into the 70's and 80's.
In any case, tubes are still used in a lot of things. Heck, I just warmed up a leftover piece of pizza with one....
Speaking of tubes - anyone got a 1V2 to spare? I'm trying to get my Zenith to focus and it's just not doing it. I'm almost certain it's the focus rectifier....
"Even the military used tubes then, IIRC, some missles had them even into the 70's and 80's."
Vacuum tubes are less vulnerable to EMP than solid state or IC technology. The Russians figured that, if we ever decided to fight WWIII with them, they would launch tactical nukes at us. Our F-14, F-15 and F-16 aircraft would suffer EMP degradation, while their vacuum-tube equipped MiG-25 and MiG-23 aircraft would be just fine.
With hardening techniques used in the 1980's, that is no longer as true, and of course with NATO having won a strategic victory over the Warsaw Pact (without firing a shot) the issue is moot...
Excellent points. Time for new cars, under warranty from their maker.
thanks
Oh That's cool, Crew Members can access the M-7 Train Status straight from a laptop, I wonder if I can hack into the M-7's Train Computer System, LOL, Can the Dispatcher or TA Headquaters monitor any R-143's Train Computer System?
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Check out my Keystone Transit Page for a brief trip report and photos of last weekend's fantrip in Toronto.
nice photos! thanks.
--Brian
Hey - I'm in two of the pictures!
-Robert King
Didn't you take any picture at the Lansdowne and Humber loops?
I didn't get off at all of the Photo Stops. I have found, on these fantrips, that I end up with rolls and rolls of shots of the same trolley car in different locations, which can get boring after a while.
I also find it's sometimes nice to take a break from the repeated jostling with the group for vantage points. Besides, there is something quite funny in watching from afar what I call the "Rail Nerd Convention" (I can say that 'cause I'm an unabashed one!) -- this big group o' guys of varying shapes and heights, all massed together, all with cameras in front of their faces, shooting photograph after photograph as if Anna Kournikova just came by and peeled off her sports bra for some sunbathing! :O)
Furthermore, I have been making efforts to find complimentary elements to shoot, which make the collection of pictures more interesting to me. How many "roster shots" do I need anyway? That's why you'll often see me snapping pix from the window.
I remember thinking that the loop at the "end" of The Queensway (Humber?) had no real redeeming quality. There was a highway overpass nearby and a large power line tower in the middle of the loop. I chose to relax inside the car and have some pretzels instead of trying to compose a shot there. I always hope to make the experience more than just a photo expedition. Forgive the stereotypical, political incorrectness, but what's that they say about the Japanese? They "take pictures of everything, but see nothing." I always try to remember that when I'm riding the rails. I wanted to try to take time to just be there.
Anyway, the best part of that portion of the trip was speeding along Queensway.
"as if Anna Kournikova just came by and peeled off her sports bra for some sunbathing!"
Considering that she's losing one tennis game after another, and commercial sponsors are considering dropping her, that may be all she's good for.
But she is pretty good in that department - maybe Playboy is next on her list...
Sure, fine. I was just wondering if you didn't photograph at those stops since no pictures from them were there.
- The underground 'Bathurst station loop' is really St. Clair West, and it's on the Spadina line, not the Bloor-Danforth.
- The ALRV somewhere in the vincinity of Bathurst and College is actually pulling out of Bathurst station (just above Bloor St.) which isn't underground, but is on the Bloor-Danforth line.
- Howard Park Ave. is the street that the tracks are on. Once they cross Parkside Dr., which is the location of the stop where the first photo after Ossington is, they enter High Park loop. It definitely is one of the nicest streetcar loops in the city, but the bushes are getting a bit out of control - notice how they're as tall as the PCC.
- Roncesvales yard, College and Queen. That's correct. Notice that the ALRV at Queen is none other than 4200, the first production unit and is one of very few low numbered one that hasn't been repainted yet - see how far gone that TTC logo is.
-Robert King
Thanks for the info. I'll update the commentary as soon as I can. I was going off some notes and the track map they handed out at the beginning of the trip. It was my first time on the rails in Toronto, so I'm sketchy on some of the details.
I hope next fantrip we will be able to say hello in person.
I'm sure you'll have some shots to share from the photo-ops I didn't take advantage of. Despite what I said, you never know when you're going to get that really great shot. I could have missed a good one!
Humber was a more or less typical Humber shot. What would be rather atypical would be to go into the 507 loop there, but as you most likely saw, the tracks were missing at the time... Also, doing the 507 loop means two round trips out on Lakeshore Rd. to Longbranch or Kipling (or a combination of both) which really eats up time. However, the Lansdowne runaround was actually very good and it is quite unfortunate that you missed it which is the biggest reason why I asked.
I will have pictures from both photostops when all the slides come back but I don't know how likely it is that they'll get on line because I don't have a slide scanner. Also, Blacks has taken a severe quality dive with their slide printing service recently, which is unfortunate because they were previously known for their high quality and reasonable prices, so I need to find another shop with both those attributes to have scannable prints made.
I never got a copy of that track map so I don't know what's on it, if it isn't up to date (many still kicking around the TTC aren't) or if there are mistakes on it (possible but not very likely).
The grand union fan trip sounds interesting. Hopefully I'll be able to work in some rare photostops. I was going to make a list of them before this fan trip except I never got to it, having been very busy at work at the time. Fortunately we were able to do the Howard Park photo stop I've been itching for although I'm still ticked that I forgot to turn up the Short Turn sign which would have completed the picture perfectly.
-Robert King
I too have a buncha slides, but no slide scanner. I noticed a couple of them have rather large, cloudy smudges in them. Perhaps it's time I found a new shop too.
I've been out of town for a few days and just saw your pictures; you've done a nice job in capturing the flavor of the 1 September Toronto charter trip.
Our riding plans were a bit too ambitious for the day, but I agree that all seemed to have a good time.
A few of us have been talking about next year, which would be our fourth charter. If you've got ideas, let me know via e-mail.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Thanks, Ed. The group was talking about perhaps doing a San Francisco Market Street F Line streetcar charter next time. Not only that, but also exploring all of the other varied aspects of Bay Area transit. I'd be game, with enough advanced notice.
BTW, if it weren't for Potsdam, I would not be here. Mom went to SUNY and Dad is a Clarkson grad! Cold winters, though. Brrrrr. :O)
My slides are fine themselves, but I need to fix the way that they were placed in the mounts - on funny angles so tha it all appears slanted and sprocket holes climb out from one of the corners... This has been an ongoing problem with Kodak for about a month now. I've been toying with the idea of getting a slide scanner but they're all very expensive and I'm told that they have a hard time with Kodachrome so I'm going to wait a while.
-Robert King
Today Congress will be in New York City today and will be arriving at Penn Station around 9:30 am, so if your planning to go that way, the best way is MTA, there will be tight security around Penn Station and there will be a gridlock. Anybody know what Train they will be arriving on? I think it's the Acela Express.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Well, I guess this is ONE way for the city to get some money out of them. :)
6 dollar microwaved sandwiches and 2 dollar cans of soda? I bet even the politicians are smuggling their own food on board.
No, silly. Members of Congress get all the free hot dogs they can eat. It's called "franking privilege."
:)
Mark
I just hope that the BLE brothers had GUNS in the cab and that "trainmarshalls" wrestled those Pepsi cans to the ground. :)
They should be thankful that their train wasn't canceled ;-)
I wonder if they took a metroliner or the Acela Express?
9:30 on the Acela? Don't bother getting there till 10 or 11 :)
I was in Penn around that time. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good they are taking Amtrak!! :-)
From what BBC News 24 were saying earlier today, a special train was chartered "arriving at Union Station" (DUH!). It was quite a good ceremony - the BBC televised it live - they tried to talk to their correspondant through the National Anthem, but ended up giving up because the Anthem was too loud!!! Heh!
I'm surprised they took the train instead of the plane. Maybe if Amtrak impressed them enough they would help them out a bit back at DC.
David
I'm surprised they took the train instead of the plane.
Maybe the Jersey delegation told them about Amtrak. Every year the gov and all the legislators take a chartered Amtrak train from Newark/Trenton to Washington to visit the Jersey Senators and Reps and associated lobbyists. It's a big political deal with a long train crammed with politicians and media people.
I do not think it was an Acela Express, all footage I saw of the Congress people boarding the Amtrak trains was of apparantly one of the furthest east loading platforms at Washington Union Station. Those are low platforms, not the high level platforms added especially for Acela Express. From there, the camera panned to show the rear marker lights of a pair of Amfleets on either side of the platform, it appeared that they were boarding those cars, but couldn't be sure.
Hehe, if congress doesn't ride the Acela, then why should anyone? It would suck if the Acela had a catestrophic failure while en route and we lost half of congress or so. I think I'll stick with Amfleets til something better than Acela comes out
my question is that i do not see buying a monthly unlimited transcard
so which ""witch is witch"".............lol !!
i will be going from line 2 line everyday during the week maybe some
rides on the weekends ( shooting railfan window videos of cource )!
setember 16-17 to october 7
just asking for some reccomended advice thats all ... would appreciate
any helpful information as 2 how i should do this !!..........?
see you on a redbird..........!
thankz !!!
Seems like an easy choice. Buy three 7-day cards. Since Metrocards (unlike traditional commuter tickets) don't force you into work weeks or calendar months, you can buy them for exactly the time frame you need.
3 seven day cards ?? like at each monday ?? is this on the same card
for example ??
i am not too hip to this at all !!
..........lol
The 7 day period starts from the point you first use (swipe) it in a turnstile. Once swiped if you do not use the card within that 7 day period you forfeit any unused time. There are no refunds once the card is swiped (unless the card is defective and even then you have to mail it in).
Example: You first swipe it Tuesday. That means you have until the next Monday (7 days) before it expires.
For the next week you have to use a new card. The unlimited cards cannot be "recharged" after they expire.
Another example: let's say you buy the card and don't even swipe it once. It is then valid for at least one year (expiration date is on the card).
Also know the Unlimited cards look the same as the pay per ride. The MTA decided it was cheaper and easier not to have different designs/colors (like Chicago does) for the basic MetroCards. Only the Student, Employee and Reduced Fare Cards look different.
then the 3 card molly wins ................lol
I was going to call this a q on the Q but I thought I had better not.
Anyway, with the closing of all the platforms with the exception of the West End line I was wondering:
If they remove the tracks along with the platforms as they did with the N how are they going to get the Q trains in and out of Coney Island yard for storage?
Unlike the Sea Beach, West End and Culver lines which have lead tracks to the yards before the Stillwell terminal the Brighton line does not. Brighton line trains have to go through the terminal to get to the yard.
Anyone have any ideas how they are going to do it?
I'm told there will be a lead from the yards that will connect to what's left ... folks on the road will have a more substantial answer, I'm sure ...
Who says they're removing the tracks?
I assume that for that very reason, there will always be at least one track somewhere running through Stillwell. Remember that the W won't always be at its current platform.
Incidentally, they only removed one of the N's tracks. The other one is still there (or maybe it's a new one where the old one used to be). I have a picture of a confused W train on it.
David,
One would reasonably assume that the rebuilding will include the roadbed as well as the platforms. To do that they have to remove the tracks.
Interesting that the roadbed of all the Stillwell Ave tracks *was* rebuilt not too long ago.
Anyway, the poster "David" told me that a track will be available for the Brighton Q diamond put-ins and take-outs every day. So even though Ocean Pkwy and West 8th St will be closed, you will see trains running through them at the start of the morning rush and the end of the evening rush.
--Mark
I can almost see the customers at West 8th Street running for the train that won't stop there.
Boy, is that gonna piss people off.
Yah, but just one track at a time. "Panel rail" jobs would be way easier if you could get a crane in on the adjacent track and leave it there.
They have the steel structure up for the eastern "N Line" tracks. No tracks yet.
The same thing done to the N platform can be done to the Q platform once the platform is closed. Rip up the track nearest the N platform, as well as the Q platform itself, while maintaining the Q track adjacent to the Culver platform.
at the moment, Q trains can you use 2, 3 and 4 Tracks through Stillwell to get to Brighton. By the time they are ready to tear down those three, 0 and 1 Tracks should be back in place (I know, how can 0 be 'back' when it was never there before? You phrase it better). When 7 and 8 Tracks come down, 1 and 2 Tracks and their platform will be back in service.
This whole thing is necessary, but this is really going to be a mess for a few years. It's not so much that so many people are headed for Coney Island, but I would a ssume it's an easy transfer for a lot of people who live near the terminal (such as a station or two before the terminal) on different lines, but want to go where a different line goes, and use Coney Island as a transfer station, and actually go manhattan bound on a different line than where the line where they live.
Getting from the Brighton to the Culver line will become a major hassle during the closure.
BUSES!! Kings Hwy B82, B1 and B4 Ave X, B6 Bay Pkwy/Ave J, B35 Church Av, and theres more, I'm not a BusFan and I can't keep track...
Yes, shuttle buses and regular buses will work, but I did say "easy" transfer. No matter how convenient they try to make subway to bus transfers, it's still not as easy as an in-subway transfer.
[No matter how convenient they try to make subway to bus transfers, it's still not as easy as an in-subway transfer.]
True. However, it's better to have a little inconvenience in the short-term than allow the Stillwell building to fall down and cause a huge long-term inconvenience.
Is the existing structure that unsound?
I don't believe it's really that unsound, it more that it's just ugly as hell! It is a long overdue renovation, but service is still going to be a mess for a few years.
The new maps and brochures don't really have any kind of information about using busses to go from Ave X to Brighton Beach. They seem to have concentrated on bus lines which connect each line to the W at Stillwell.
"...really going to be a mess for a few years."
Actually, about 18 months, maybe less. See http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/35_still.pdf
This board has previously discussed Singapore's traffic management strategy that charges you a fee to drive in the CBD during peak hours, in an effort to encourage mass transit usage.
Well, London is going to try this in February. And they're not even going to do it with an E-ZPass type device!
From the September 6, 2002 NY Times
International: Go Ahead, Drive Into London. That Will Be £5, Please. By SARAH LYALL
London drivers will soon have to pay about $7.80 to drive into their own city each day.
--Mark
I hate to say it, but it's really a good idea. New York City should consider same as well. It's one thing to go from the house to the Mall, but quite another thing to drive into an overly crowded city only to empty your gas tank before you ever GET there.
When you live in a place where there's no practical mass transit, you NEED the little autorobot. When you're going to somewhere that actually HAS some, only makes sense. After all, where the hell are you gonna park in NYC? Anyone with half a brainstem drives to where the parking is cheap and take the TRAIN the rest of the way ...
In our case, if Amtrak had died, then we would drive to Po'town and take Metro North. When you don't live in congested traffic, that's the LAST thing you want to deal with on top of "where do I PARK this thing without paying more for a garage than my damned RENT? :)
Sorry, no brainer as far as this hick sees it. Less cars means more trucks ... or at least less traffic. And besides, aren't there taxis for hire?
When you count bridge tolls, doesn't it already cost drivers coming from New Jersey to drive into New York? Does any one know if the bridge tolls affect people's transportation choices?
Mark
Probably not. If you're DUMB enough to bring a car into NYC in the first place, then you must be Superman. Lemme put it THIS way. I used to drive in the Bronx, I'd do Manhattan. I was UP to it once. After living for years out in Podunk though, just TRYING to drive in NYC gives me a dose of the willies. No way is that going to happen. I guess there's folks still left with enough stones to think that if they circle 55th St enough, a car will spontaneously combust, vaporize and leave them a spot. :)
But me? I'd rather drive to a train somewhere and finish MY trip on the D train. Your mileage may vary, void where prohibited by NYC TRAFFIC in their dumbass golfcarts. If folks are willing to pay the tolls, who am I to refuse their revenue stream? Heh.
After living for years out in Podunk though, just TRYING to drive in NYC gives me a dose of the willies.
Amen to that. Guess it's the years of living in the North Carolina wilderness, but just the thought of driving across NYC gives me the shakes. When I head from New Jersey to Branford I take the Parkway to the Thruway and cross the Tappan Zee, then 295 to 95, rather than take the GWB and the Cross Bronx, even though that's shorter (especially when I've driven into Newark's Ironbound section to pick up Walter). And downtown? Fuhgeddaboutit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not aware of any "confirmed" cases, but I'm sure it happens.
For the PANYNJ crossings, the auto cash toll is $6 all times. EZ Pass is $5 peak, $4 off-peak.
Peak hours are 6-9 AM and 4-7 PM Mon-Fri
12-8 PM Sat-Sun
This may encourage people to use EZ Pass, but transit is still significantly cheaper in many cases, especially from many parts of Hudson and Bergen Counties.
Such as the PATH, $1.50 each way.
And the bus, such as from Fort Lee; from the Bridge Plaza across to the 178th St Terminal - $1.40 (NJ Transit), $1.00 (Rockland Coach)
From Hoboken, it's $2.10 NJ Transit, $2.00 Academy.
Does any one know if the bridge tolls affect people's transportation choices?
Whenever I visit Brooklyn, tolls play a very important part in the route I take.
For instance, I will normally come into Brooklyn via the NJ Turnpike, Goethals and Verrazano Bridges, but I will not take the Verrazano Bridge back home. I might go back through Manhattan via the FDR Drive and use the Brooklyn Bridge to get to the FDR (assuming there's no traffic). This is saving me one full fare on a TBTA crossing.
--Mark
Those are *bridge* tolls and are piddling little amounts.
There should be either a $25.00 fee for bringing your car into the CBD during rush hours ($10.00 off peek~ maybe [that favors RICH employer types who can arrive any time]) or an outright ban for any passenger vehicle that is not REGISTERED to a RESIDENT actually LIVING in the CBD with proof of an OFF STREET parking place.
End of Story.
Elias
Since I'm not from NYC, what does CBD stand for?
Mark
It isn't a New York specific term. It means Central Business District, which basically be the downtown of nearly any big city.
-Robert King
If you did that then all the bussiness would relocate to Suburban office parks. Sure the downtown wouldn't be congested any more, but that would be due to the fact that it would become deserted. Usually, when one uses "behavior modifacation" fees to get people doing activity A to switch to activity B, the people wil gneerally choose activity C that not only screws you, but also screws someone else.
Such a move would have to be coupled with zoning and anti-sprawl regulations, maybe to keep everything from uprooting and moving the suburbia.
Making liveable cities isn't something you can do with one action. It requires well-thought-out and enforced strategies.
Mark
But the devolopment lobby would never allow such regulations. Bridge tolls are easy. Something that actually makes a difference is hard.
Such a move would have to be coupled with zoning and anti-sprawl regulations
That sort of crap has been in force in London since the late 40's. All it's resulted in is the ends of some of the Underground Lines closing, sprawl being built to a certain distance out, then a gap, then towns where everyone drives.
Actually, sprawl really isn't a bad thing. If the cities could be deserted and nowhere is congested because people live closer to where they work, then that is a good result.
Sure, it will become more expensive to build infrastructure, but that is a cost everyone will eventually end up paying, whether you are in the cities or in the suburbia or the rural areas.
There's lots of space in Nebraska. If we could develop that space because the cities are becoming expensive, that is a good result -- until the point when we start running out of land to grow corn on. My projections show that won't happen until the year 8,200 AD. Farmlands are currently very inefficiently utilized in the USA. The food chain is also very inefficient too. There is something wrong when you can buy a pound of steak for $5.
Cities are an outdated institution. If cities were such a great thing, then we wouldn't need regulation to preserve city centers. Sure, there are agglormation benefits of living in the cities, but the present public view is that the costs (cramped conditions, inconvenience of not able to use a car) exceeds the benefits (airports are closer, more social interactions). Some day, before the year 8,200, it will change.
AEM7
NY is very close to implementing such a plan and it already has an "efficient" way of collecting the fees ... tolls are already resident on most of the major crossings into the city except for the 4 East River Bridges and the Harlem River bridges. But as we all know, all attempts to impose tolls on these bridges are shot down very quickly. The city has historically put a premium on available parking space (which is why parking is so expensive) and that hasn't really helped much.
--Mark
The traffic in NYC itself seems to be a potent force in and of itself for outsiders. Keeps a LOT of "outsiders" out ... but if only there was a way to make those who would drive into NYC (rather than making US in the woods pay for NYC accidents and thefts) then INSURANCE would solve the problem right then and there.
According to the NYS Insurance Department, the reason why NYS motor vehicle owners pay more than Jersey lately for insurance is because people in Brooklyn have cars. Make THEM pay the actual casualties and we'd get a significant break here based on actual CLAIMS and NOBODY would DARE drive into Manhattan. Alas, politics bends reality once again. :)
Traffic speed in London is slower now than it was in the horse drawn era,infact things are so bad that the Ambulance service now has a fleet of paramedics who respond on motorbikes to stabilise patients as the transporting ambulance will usually be delayed in heavy traffic.
This scheme is also employed by the 'transit police' the British Transport Police also have a fleet of motorcycles and Railtrack now send some opertaing staff to incident by motorcycle.London Underground has 6 Emergency Response Unit trucks based at strategic points around the city and these too are affected.
.
Also the movie SPEED was going to be filmed in London but when the script was written Keanu Reeves shouting "keep it above 5 MPH or the bus will explode" didn't sound to good and was impossible even in the bus lane /joke/
Rob
Also the movie SPEED was going to be filmed in London but when the script was written Keanu Reeves shouting "keep it above 5 MPH or the bus will explode" didn't sound to good and was impossible even in the bus lane
Your sources are incorrect ... the original plan for SPEED was to film it on the Long Island Expressway - a nice straight run out to Riverhead for 70 miles, but, well, no one can recall the last time that was ever done without a traffic jam :)
--Mark
Where did it end up being filmed, in Arkansas along I-40?
Of the Four East River Bridges:
Brooklyn Bridge: CLOSED- Pedestrians Only (Build LRV routes on it.)
Manhattan Bridge: CLOSED to Automobiles, Taxi cabs only during rush hours, delivery trucks by permit other hours.
Williamsburg Bridge: No Trucks during Rush Hours, Cab and busses all times, Automobies with permits (Registered to CDB residents etc.)
Queensboro Bridge: is almost outside of the CBD and might not be restricted, but all traffic debridging in Manhattan would be moved north of 59th Street.
59th/57th Street: Toll barricades will collect tolls or impose restrictions on all vehicles moving south of 58th Street.
Brooklyn and Queens Tunnels: Impose $25.00 access tolls during rush hours, in addition to the crossing toll.
Elias
Yeah I like that idea! :-)
The city has historically put a premium on available parking space (which is why parking is so expensive) and that hasn't really helped much.
There are many thousands of free parking spaces around the city, including Manhattan.
And even if there weren't, parking fees wouldn't have any effect on the people just passing through, who often choose to go through Manhattan because the toll structure makes it more expensive to go around.
The latest proposal to toll the East River bridges is still pending, AFAIK. I, for one, look forward to its implementation.
And even if there weren't, parking fees wouldn't have any effect on the people just passing through, who often choose to go through Manhattan because the toll structure makes it more expensive to go around.
Not sure how you figure that one... my toll cost (no EZ-Pass) to get from my New Jersey house to Branford is $5.10 via the Tappan Zee Bridge ($2.10 Parkway, $3.00 Tappan Zee) whereas it costs at least $8.40 via the GWB ($1.40 Parkway, $6.00 GWB, $1.00 expressway - more if I take the Parkway to the Turnpike and come up that route).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now try to travel between Long Island and New Jersey. If you pass through midtown Manhattan via one of the toll-free East River bridges, you pay $4 round-trip (plus a $2 cash surcharge or a $1 peak surcharge). If you use one of the MTA toll bridges to bypass the most congested part of the city, you pay $10 round-trip (plus a $3 cash surcharge or a $1 peak surcharge). Crazy, no?
Yes, it is... I've done it a couple of times going via Staten Island when my daughter was flying overseas from JFK and once when my wife and I went to a dinner theater out on Long Island for a special program on the life of Golda Meir. But as a general rule I avoid it like the plague.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And if they want to have an argument, that will be an extra pound for five minutes or only eight pounds for a course of ten.
That if they want Abuse or Contradiction?
About the enforcement thing, if they don't want to use EZpass-like stuff, why not use a permit sticker? The driver buys a weekly/monthly/yearly sticker, places it on the back window, and the meter maids do start writing tickets if they see a car parked without one. Or, the cop driving down the road could pull the person over if they don't have it. Sounds easier than having cameras looking at cars than for criminal (which is their currernt duties).
And also:
She did not want her name used, but stopped for a minute on the street to point to the demarcation area between the payment zone and the free zone. "If I want to drive across the street to visit my son, I'm going to have to pay £5 each time," she said.
Does "across the street" mean something else in the Queen's English? Maybe "down the street"? Because who the hell would drive across the street to visit someone?
Does "across the street" mean something else in the Queen's English? Maybe "down the street"? Because who the hell would drive across the street to visit someone?
Not really. You can tell this woman is a typical whiner. If you need to drive "across the street" i.e. drive from one block to the next, crossing a street, then shouldn't you be walking especially with London sized blocks?
AEM7
The permit sticker would work quite nicely, but how does a "day tripper" get one? (Although the method proposed now isn't exactly convenient either ....)
--mark
The day-tripper parks in a huge park-and -ride facility in New Jersey and takes a train into the city.
Admitedly this would be more difficult in London, but that is their problem.
Elias, we have a big big car park in London,It is called the M25 and is the orbital motorway around the capital.Parking here on it's 3 or 4 lane sections is free at most peak hours especially on the stretch near Heathrow.!
But seriously the Northern Line at Edgware could easilly be extended north to accomodate a park and ride site just off he M1 motorway (freeway),many other sites exist also mainly redundant factory spaces etc.
Rob
Wasn't that kinda extension onto Bushey Heath planned in the Northern Heights Scheme?
I meant of course that a Park and Ride in NEW JERSEY would be difficult for people in LONDON to use!
Sheeesh
Why? People in London regularly drive their cars onto containerships and come to New Jersey, they park their cars in Elizabeth, NJ where all the containers are.
AEM7
And what if there are any residental buildings (lofts etc)?
By the sound of things, if you live within the CBD, as long as you don't drive outside the CBD, the cameras can never record your car and you never need to pay. In reality there is probably some residents' scheme, like a tax for owning a car if you live in CBD. You pay your monthly (presumably substantially cheaper than those living outside and taking the car in), and you get to drive whenever you want...
Used to live on 17th Street. Residents of Manhattan get a tax break on parking garages. Residents of Rockaway get toll breaks. I'm sure there are others !!
Staten Island residents using EZ-Pass pay $3.20 {£2.05} (46% discount vs. standard round-trip $6 {£3.84} EZP toll.) to cross the Verrazano. Toll is only collected entering Staten Island. The Verrazano is the only TBTA crossing with one-way toll collection, as mandated by federal law.
The Verrazano is the only TBTA crossing with one-way toll collection, as mandated by federal law.
I didn't know that ... why are the other TBTA crossings exempt (or maybe I should ask, why is the Verrazano the only TBTA bridge that collects tolls in only one direction?) Do you know?
--Mark
It should be fun. I hate driving in London but have to do it from time to time. If I dont have to drive into the centre (about twice a week)I park on the outskirts and get a train in.
I think something ought to be done, but the priority should be to make public transport easier, cheaper and more pleasant to use.
London is a great place and can be better still if only people would leave their cars at home.
I admit I don't know how the plan will work but I hope the revenue does flow into the transport system.
It's a bold plan I hope it works.
Simon
Swindon UK
Yeah! NYC should be next! Also I think even out here in the burbs, there should be a fee for those who refuse to carpool.
After sitting in traffic for a combined 3 hours today on Northern Blvd, I welcome any plan to get these cars off the road.
I fully support such an idea for NYC. New York is choking on diesel fumes and I'm tired of the aaggressive tactics and impatient horn leaning so many NYC motorists use. Any effort to curtail suto traffic in NYC is fine by me. Charge $5-$10 on each crossing.
However...offer incentives so truck deliveries can be made in off hours.
www.forgotten-ny.com
However...offer incentives so truck deliveries can be made in off hours.
I have thought of this, and my more detailed plans included this.
This is good for big delivery trucks, but the smaller ones NEED to be in the city during business hours. These include UPS FedEx etc... and the guys who deliver Pepsi and Coke, and such.
I am thinking that these regular delivery companies should all sit down together and work out a plan of who will be where when. Parking Space 6-34-01 (Sixth Ave, 34th Street position 1, north) will be used by UPS between.... and by Pepsi between... etc. And let them work the damn thing out for themselves, and then write their own permits for these parking places. Heck, they can evein hire their own meter maids to police them~!
Elias
And what discount for residents ????
Just Weekdays? I think it's a good idea but they should extend it to Weekends as well. I know less cars go into city's on weekends but I think Transit Use on weekends is good too. Doing this on Weekends would make People Ride Transit ALOT and that's a good thing!
Referring to the new M-7s, "Microprocessors control everything right down to the toilet," David J. Elliott, the railroad's general manager, said yesterday during a demonstration for the news media.
This gives new meaning to usage of the word "recycle" to restart something. I hope the latest service packs have been applied to there's no unexpected, ah, backwash .....
You can read all about it in today's NY Times:
Train of the Future' Soon to Approach Stations on L.I.R.R. and Metro-North
--Mark
[insert some joke about a blue stripe of death]
A request for those of us who do not wish to give the New York Times our life history (please note: the Baltimore Sun does not require registration to use its Sunspot web service) could you please post the article's text on the Board?
Might mean a little more work, but should add to the threads that develop if posters know right away what is being discussed.
> could you please post the article's text on the Board?
Probably not legal.
>>> Probably not legal. <<<
Definitely not legal, but advance warning that the link is to the Times, and a precis of the contents would be both legal and helpful.
Tom
You don't have to give them your life history. Just do what many do, give bogus answers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Bogus answers are still statistically useful. I agree that the registration crap really is some nusiance, but well someone has to pay for the article. If you do cut and paste, it's legal provided you are only quoting the article -- like what I do, a few lines at a time, with my commentry appended.
>>> it's legal provided you are only quoting the article -- like what I do, a few lines at a time, with my commentry appended. <<<
You seem to be referring to the fair use doctrine. It is legal if you quote a small portion of the article. You can not quote the whole article with commentary. It is no defense to say "I only quoted three lines" when accused of violating the copyright of a haiku. :-)
Tom
>>>>Bogus answers are still statistically useful.<<<
How so?
Peace,
ANDEE
They can tell how many of the same person visits their website. So if you were using that one bogus handle, they can tell how many times you visit the site on average. They can use that in selling advertizing or just trying to figure out their electronic circulation. Unless you re-register for a handle every time you go there, you can't really screw up their statistical profiling of their readers.
AEM7
Yeah, just put down all fake info, and get a free email address for stuff like this so if they have to send you a password by email you will be able to get it.
As others have said, just give them phony information if you wish. You're actually talking to Bob Labowsky here, as far as the Times (and other sites) are concerned. Get a hotmail (or other expendable) account and use that only for signing up. You won't lose your membership if your e-mail isn't good anymore. If you can't beat 'em, cheat.
Matt
>>> As others have said, just give them phony information if you wish. <<<
I do that, but I always forget what information I gave the last time, so each time I login I create a new persona, which is time consuming, and therefore I avoid going to the NY Times unless I know what I am looking for. The blind "Read this" messages favored by a few Sub Talkers are a real PITA :-(
Tom
You can enable cookies, then it remembers who you are for you -- it stores your false information on your computer.
AEM7
Greetings, all...
Just letting everybody know that I've finally moved to South Jersey. Today is my third day of work and things here are going well so far. I'm mostly settled into my new home here in Collingswood, about a mile from the office. I'm living with a couple roommates in a large house for a few months until I'm back on my feet financially and can move into my own apartment (hopefully around January or so).
The move itself was a total disaster thanks to the gross incompetence of U-Haul. No words are sufficient to describe their sheer stupidity and gross unprofessionalism. Even though I had made my truck reservations over a month in advance, they still didn't have a truck for me when I showed up on Saturday morning. After almost 1-1/2 days of waiting, we stormed out of the U-Haul location on Sunday morning and managed to aquire a Ryder truck that afternoon, but couldn't get a trailer to tow my car. (U-Haul finally called my cell phone around 10:00 Monday morning and informed me they have a truck, but we were almost in Ohio by that point.) This fiasco put us two days behind schedule, and royally screwed up my plans to take my girlfriend to NYC on Monday. So my car now sits in a friend's garage in Chicago, and I'll have to fly back there in a couple weeks and make yet another 14-hour drive across three states.
Lessons learned from this move:
1) Never, under any circumstances, use U-Haul. Pay a few extra dollars and use Ryder instead.
2) Never attempt move on Labor Day weekend.
But I guess the important thing is that we had a safe trip, and I got all my stuff unloaded. Most of it went into storage in Maple Shade, but there's still a few things remaining to be unpacked at the house. My girlfiend and I said our goodbyes at the airport on Tuesday, and I'm now officially single again. To be honest, I doubt our relationship would have lasted much longer anyway, and me losing my temper at the U-Haul place on Sunday certainly didn't help things.
In summary, it was probably the most rotten weekend of my life, but that's now in the past and my new life here in Philly seem to be off to a good start so far. I never thought I'd say this, but good riddance to Chicago.
My new job is going well so far... The people here at the office seem nice, the place has a very casual atmosphere, I've got a huge workstation with a nice computer, and the PATCO train goes right behind our building. I can hear the trains go past as I type this.
Classes at Drexel start in about two weeks or so, and I've already registered.
My activity here on SubTalk will remain somewhat limited for a while, as I'm still in the process of getting my home computer online. Right now my only internet access is this computer here at the office, and I want to be here at least a few more weeks before I begin abusing that priviledge. :-)
Talk to you all later,
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Heh heh, U-Haul horror stories are legion. God only knows* how that outfit can stay in business. But it's good to hear that you've made the move and have started a new job.
Will you be using PATCO when you start school at Drexel?
* = on second thought, God probably can't figure it out, either.
Truck rental places tend to be highly autonomous franchises, so service will vary greatly within a brand. Sounds like you got stuck with an incompetent franchisee.
Mark
I take it your new employer did not offer a relocation allowance?
What kind of architectural projects are they involving you in (office, residential, manufacturing, retail)?
Good luck at Drexel. A very nice campus. Don't forget to jeer at U. Penn once in a while.
You tried to get a U-Haul on the weekend when every single college student in America is going back to school. Resevations or not you were bound to run into trouble.
Good point...
Damn, Georgia public colleges started way back on August 19th (but I'm not going to school this semester). When do you guys end this semester/quarter?
You tried to get a U-Haul on the weekend when every single college student in America is going back to school. Resevations or not you were bound to run into trouble.
It's irrelevant how busy the weekend may have been. Confirmed reservations should be honored, period.
"It's irrelevant how busy the weekend may have been. Confirmed reservations should be honored, period."
True, but if an office screws up, there's no spare equipment to fall back on, because it's so busy. That is probably what happened here.
Its just the concept of Overbooking. If %5 of reservations typically cancel then you Overbook by %5. If you want to be guarenteed a trailer or van see if they have an advance payment system. If you have already paid, there is no incentive to screw you. As long as you just have a reservation you are still a POTENTIAL customer.
Dave - We'll miss you in Chicago!
Best wishes on your new job and your new home.
-- Ed Sachs
Sorry to hear you had such a rough time getting over to NJ, Dave. But welcome to the east coast! I'll send you an email shortly...
wecome to jersey the land of high car insurance, but we do have cheap gas, and lousy policians!!!
Is it true that there are no self-service gas stations in New Jersey?
Yes. It is illegal to set foot outside your car while you are being filled up or waiting for service.
You can't even use their rest room facilities?
If you park your car in a parking spot on or off the property, yes. At the pump or blocking the service bays, no.
They are very strict regulations when compared to what I am used to here in PA.
No No No, sorry, I don't know if there is a law to that or not, but I've done it a thousand times to grab a Coke or something while the car is getting filled. The Attendant has never said anthing to me, and if that were a law, it would be pretty funny to see what the 'Morning Coffee from Exxon' people would do. If they needed to move beyond their halfway-to-philly SUV fillup spot, chaos would rule at all the local gas stations.
I once watched a guy with Colorado plates pull into the gas station, casually get out of his car, pop the fuel cap, and start pumping away (the pumps are no different, Exxon and Mobil's even have Speedpass, stupid) only to suddenly be suprised to see two attendants come sprinting out of the store, screaming at him in broken english that they needed to fill his car, the man looked utterly bewildered.
It is fun to watch cars from out of state try to navigate New Jersey's idea of roads. We see an idiot a week try to make a left at a 'All Turns from Right Lane' intersection just south of my house. New Jersey has possibly the worst traffic engineers on the face of the planet, with the 'Jughandle' their most flawwed creation. Who wants to sit through one light, go through the intersection, make a right turn 270 degrees, and then sit through another light at the same damn intersection.
BTW: I think Oregon also has similar rules regarding gas pumping.
Well Northern Blvd in Nassau has traffic lights all out of sync. One turns green the next one turns red. There nothing more frustrating then having a light change on you to see the one behind it turn green.
And this creates monster traffic jams. I spent almost 3 hours on the Northern Blvd jams today!
BTW: I think Oregon also has similar rules regarding gas pumping.
Correct. That was the basis for a nitpick on the movie Anti-Trust, which was set in Oregon* but contained a scene in which two characters had an important conversation while pumping their own gasoline. A comment to the nitpick pointed out that the characters could have been over the state line in Washington, however.
*= but, like so many movies today, actually filmed in Canada.
BTW: I think Oregon also has similar rules regarding gas pumping.
Correct. That was the basis for a nitpick on the movie Anti-Trust, which was set in Oregon* but contained a scene in which two characters had an important conversation while pumping their own gasoline.
An episode of The Sopranos had them pumping their own gas on their way to the Pine Barrens. The "Pine Barrens" scenes were actually filmed in New York state.
Yeah, the jughandle! Is that chiefly a Jersey thing?
There's one on Paramus Rd right by Bergen Community College. It's so damn stupid - there's a traffic circle on the campus right after the entrance, so if you are leaving and want to go south/east on Paramus Rd, you have to go around the damn circle, turn right onto Paramus, go several hundred yards, around the jughandle and then you're in business. But of course, there's some kind of road work going on between Century Rd and Rt 4. Been going on since last year, I guess it's part of the major highway so-called improvements going on in the Paramus area.
There is a jughandle at South Avenue and Teleport Drive in Staten Island, New York. And there is also one on Route 13 somewhere between Bristol and Levittown, Pa.
But, for the most part, it's a "Jersey Thing"!
Traffic circles were even worse. You risked your life trying to negotiate those things. There used to be several on Rt. 23 as you headed north from the US 46/I-80 maze, including one particularly notorious circle known as "Killer Bend". This was a sharp, 90-degree turn on s/b 23 where the Newark-Pompton Turnpike joins it (the n/b lanes went straight ahead). It was eliminated not long before we moved to Connecticut in 1973. The other ones as you headed north were in Wayne where Ratzer Road and Black Oak Ridge Rd. met; one in my old town of Pompton Plains at Jackson Ave.; and one at Riverdale just south of where I-287 now ducks beneath Rt. 23. These are all jug handles now except for Killer Bend, which has an overpass.
Maryland's putting traffic circles in and they do risk your life trying to negotiate one. Nobody knows what to do, who yields to who.
They even did a two lane one in Towson, that was put in 3 years ago and has already racked up 265 accidents, including 12 fatals. It's at the main intersection of York Road, Dulaney Valley Road and Joppa Road, and there is no way to avoid it.
I was heading west on Wilkens Avenue this afternoon, heading for Rolling Road and damned if they didn't put one there. On the way back from Catonsville I discovered that Valley Road runs between Rolling and Wilkins and avoids the circle.
Fortunately, nobody was stupid enough to ever put a traffic circle on a street with a streetcar line.
Jersey has been phasing out traffic circles for some time; they were designed for light traffic and became anachronistic with the heavy traffic of the last 20 years or so.
Nobody knows what to do, who yields to whom.
Officially in Jersey traffic approaching the circle yielded to traffic already in the circle; in practice, though, traffic on the less important road yielded (of necessity to avoid collision) to traffic from the more important road. The trick was to pretend you didn't see the other cars so they'd let you through.
And here in upstate New York, the morons at DOT are designing *NEW* ones! Yes, the space aliens HAVE landed, and the traffic circles out in the pasture prove it. :)
If you don't like traffic circles, don't ever try to drive in Britain (8-) . As those who have visited the UK will know we have huge numbers of them in the UK (we call them roundabouts). They work fine when all the drivers know what to do. The reason they are disliked in the USA is that they are rare. If they were common, they would be included in drivers' education as a matter of routine.
It is true to say that they aren't suitable for *very* heavy traffic. They work best for moderately heavy traffic when there is roughly equal traffic on the diferent streets that cross.
The roundabouts that truly scare me are the tiny ones just painted onto the street. And then someone comes in from a very minor side street to make a right turn, and once they are in the roundabout they have the right of way, which is totally unexepected to an American.
On the other hand, I have been told that in Germany in the absence of a sign the car from the right ALWAYS has the right of way, no matter how minor the side street is. That's even more insane.
Having traffic circles assumes that you have two paved roads.
Out here your cross a paved road about every 20 miles.
Mooo
I still remember a discussion we had one day in high school during a world history class. Someone brought up traffic circles and our teacher remarked whoever came up with the idea ought to be shot.
Where do you guys come up with this stuff??? The rules are clearly posted within reading distance of the gasoline pumps! What New Jersey has is obsolete fire laws regarding the dispention of fuels. Sure, turn your ignition off but proper procedure is that the engine is cooled down and all ports of vapor be properly evacuated to atmosphere. Sit in your car while teenaged Frankenstein or Gupta/Krishna pours gas over a fender...get out of the vehicle and stand fifteen feet away. Oh, the crap about cellphones....that was a hoax the oil industry was suckered into. The rules about filling portable containers ARE true....they must be removed from the vehicle and placed upon the pavement to avoid a static discharge that might ignite vapors. The worst non New Jersey situation is a fuel pump that only delivers pre pay and you bought more fuel than you can use.
What New Jersey has is a situation where teenagers needing minimum wage employment are exposed to hazards of gasoline dispensing and cash/convience store robbery.
Teenagers? Most gas stations around my area (South Jersey [Camden County, where David is now]) are owned by Sikhs and employ adult Sikhs.
Yeah, ditto, cept one Mobil on Rt70, just a little south east of me, there there are about 3 or 4 teens, who are looking at their career right now, and a pair of older guys. One of the guys is quite clean cut, and appears to run the place, but the other dude has very few teeth, smells worse than Fresh Kills, and has, on several occasions, sprayed gasoline out of the pump at the teenagers to get them moving. Needless to say, after having my Trunk, Backwindow, and a large percentage of my back-left side covered in gasoline, I stopped going there, cheap gas is one thing, but a flaming car (or gas station) is quite another.
Just a mile or two west is another Exxon where the employee demographic is almost exactly as you say. That is the site of my "Insane SUV and Commuter Fillup."
A gas station owner like that deserves a written complaint filed against him with the refining company whose gas he sells, with the state and the local fire department. He's violating a number of laws and ordinances.
Heck, it wasn't the owner, it was just this bald, nearly toothless guy who I think works there. I think the leaded gasoline of when he was a gas-pumping-apprentice-or-dumb-lazy-teenager got to him. A few times he's ripped us off, charging for Supreme or something but putting regular in the car, and he never has had a good excuse, one time the coversation actually went like this:
[My Mother]"Hey, what is this, I asked for Regular!"
[Toothless Gas Station Attendant]"Oh, that's nothing."
[Mother]"You charged me for Supreme, it sure isn't nothing, thats 20 cents a gallon"
[Toothless Joe]"Oh yeah, but I filled it with Regular, your car won't notice."
Not only did he admit to what he had done, when we went and found the manager, Toothless Joe blamed my mother, saying that she had confused him. Fortunately the manager sided with my mother, and refunded the difference in price, after a half hour of argueing.
Yes, we have written letters, the gas station just seems to get worse and worse, but there really is no reason to even bother going there, just a half mile up the road is another Mobil positioned to catch the Eastbound drivers, and you can easily get there through a pair of All Turns, and they have much better service.
I agree with your decision not to go there. However, I would have written to the executive levels at Mobil, pointing out the safety problems, with copies to the fire department, and the state. It's just possible Mobil would have forced corrective action. Some things they don't go for.
In fact, spraying gasoline at somebody could be considered assault with a deadly weapon.
One share of stock in the corporation...you are a shareholder of record and believe me...shareholder services get your attention and does more far beyond the complaint department. I do business with those who do well by me...100+ shares of XOM...and my car will need inspection. Bronx corner of Gun Hill and Boston Post Roads...old Mobil..run by mix of immigrants. Cleanest shop I ever saw...walls 'flaming white'...not a spot of grease. Uniforms dark blue with ironed creases. Never refused inspection or inspection defect repair....these guys should be Car Inspectors! CI Peter
And these gus deserve a letter of commendation to Mobil. If you do an exceptionally good job, you deserve to be recognized for it.
I'm going to go there for inspection again. If things are the same from my September 11th inspection, Mobil will be getting a letter of commendation from me. This place was so good that there was no self serve/attendant price difference. I always do business with those who do me well, recommend business' to others and take my business to others when I am 'stiffed.' Gasoline station leasing has its problems...oil companies dump their best for lack of sales...but I FEEL SOMETHING MORE about THAT station. Company reviews do spot checks unannounced and employees of worth do eventually move up into better things. Transit has a lot to learn from private industry but like my buddies say, 'Don't try to re-invent the wheel.' CI Peter
BTW: 'Namaste...eees theees Exxon/Mobil or Mobil/Exxon thankyouverrrrymuch?
I feel for you guys in Jersey that have to put up with the "full service idiots. Here in Penna. we can use self-service and flash our "SpeedPass" at the pump to get it started. I've never had any problems with the Speedpass-just don't lose it or someone will start buying gas on your account until you call Mobil and cancel.
Chuck Greene
My error!!! Gupta/Krishna should have added Singh.
Are you sure about that? It's illegal for a random individual to pump gas, but I think that's it. Last week when I got out of the car at an Exxon on NJ 4 to wash the windshield, nobody complained. (Who else would have washed the windshield for me? That's not what full-service means in that state.)
That's strange. They often leave the gas to pump and then do the windshield while the gas pumps.
I like to travel by train (surprise, surprise) when I go through New Jersey and hardly ever drive, I can't say I have had to pump up at a NJ gas station for quite some time.
Thanks. Believe it or not, I got an auto insurance quote from USAA the other day, and their rates for Collingswood, New Jersey were about 1/3 less than I was paying for insurance in Chicago. Go figure.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Absolutely dumb question: Did the Nth Ward move to NJ with you, and will it be renamed? Don't think NJ has wards.
The Nth Township maybe?
Mark
Not sure about other cities, but Newark has 'wards'.
IINM, Newark indeed has a "North Ward", more commonly known as North Newark, or Forest Hill. It's one of the very few neighborhoods that has remained pretty stable.
Urghh Uhaul is awful. My mother had some of her old stuff in one of their storage places. But when she passed away me and my relative went down there to pick it up. When we opened it, there were millions of carpet beetles all over the stuff. Needless to say, everything had to be disposed of.
I could've taken legal action against Uhaul, but at the time I was still quite upset over the loss, so I just forgot about it.
Also it was quite a pain just to reach somebody in the Uhaul office to get access to the stuff. (I could not find my mother's key)
Best wishes in NJ...I'm thinking of moving to NJ myself (Hoboken) Not with U Haul
Hoboken is a "hapening" place these days. Where do you live now?
I meant "happening"
>>>>Hoboken is a "hapening" place these days. Where do you live now? <<<
Fab Flushing. Not really interested in the hipsters...just have always admired Hoboken, I have some friends there and need a change of pace. The place I may go to has a cheaper rent than what I pay now but it's only 4 blocks from PATH and I can ride all over NJ from Hoboken. But it would be less room, and with a 2nd floor fire escape fronting on the street, I would be more vulnerable to thieves who would surely notice I was bringing in all sorts of electrical recreational equipment, like TV sets and Imacs. A decision I will have to consider carefully.
www.forgotten-ny.com
BTW, I hope you don't have a car.
Parking in Hoboken even for residents is a nightmare.
My friend lived there for two years. Every time I went to visit him I never parked closer than 6 blocks form his place.
If you've been reading the cars...cars...cars thread belwo, you can see that I don't drive...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Glad you made it safe, David!
1) Never, under any circumstances, use U-Haul. Pay a few extra dollars and use Ryder instead.
I can tell you horror stories about both - the only reason I've got more about U-Haul than Ryder is because I've rented from them more often.
2) Never attempt move on Labor Day weekend.
Or any major holiday weekend, or during the month of May. I'm not sure where my younger daughter will be moving next year when she finishes law school, but I'm hoping she can stay where she is for at least a couple of weeks past graduation so I don't have to deal with moving her over Memorial Day. Between Christmas and New Year's is an excellent time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My husband's experience with U-Haul was also horrendous. His truck broke down in the middle of downtown Norristown PA-- and U-haul hung up on the police trying to find out when they were sending a tow truck. It took two days for U Haul to get the truck out of the police impound lot. And it took him calling the national office in
Pheonix to get the local people to do their job and get the truxk out of impound. Six days of constant calling got us a refund-- but again-- we had Pheonix backing us up.
We will NEVER use UHAUL again and we advise all to avoid them!
A few of us are having a London field trip on 14th September. We shall be travelling to the extremities of the system and riding all lines. Lunch will either be a Subway Sandwich Bar of the Sbarro at Euston (no Macdonalds). Opportunities will be available to buy supplies of Snapple.
All subtalkers are invited to attend. If anyone is interested please send me a mail for details.
Simon
Swindon UK
This topic may be a little off topic but lately I noticed people are using the addresses of Queens, NY instead of the usual Flushing NY or Springfield Gardens or Long Island City or Jackson Heights. Queens is a huge place if some one said 21 st in Queens I wouldn't have a clue where it is. If someone said 21 St in Long Island City I would know where they are talking about. What is making people get into the habit of saying Queens New York.
They are tired of being identified with small communities nobody has ever heard of. I dont want my address to be Sunnyside, NY. I want my address to be Queens, NY.
I dont want my address to be Sunnyside, NY. I want my address to be Queens, NY.
Well, uh, maybe it's time to change your Subtalk handle ...
I think he means in an address. Most people, even outsiders, have heard of the boroughs in NYC. So if you say Queens, NY people may know that you live in NYC, but almost nobody outside of New York would know that Sunnyside is in NYC.
Right on
They are tired of being identified with small communities nobody has ever heard of. I dont want my address to be Sunnyside, NY. I want my address to be Queens, NY.
I guess to each his own -- I feel totally the opposite - I am an ASTORIAN first, and proud to use it or L.I.C. on my mail. I really like the small town feel "Astoria, NY" has to it. Heck if I had my druthers Long Island City would secede and have its own mayor again ;-) To me its better than the current rule by a government of Manhattanites, by Manhattanites and for Manhattanites...
AMEN BROTHER!
I believe in self-determination for the oppressed citizens of the occupied counties.
1. It makes little difference to the post office, so long as you use a zip code. A nine-digit zip code brings a letter riht to the block.
2. Other large cities (Philly, for example) do not use neighborhood addresses. West Philly, Gernmantown, Manayunk, it's all Philadelphia on envelopes.
1. It makes little difference to the post office, so long as you use a zip code.
Queens NY is not acceptable to the post office. At the very least it must be separated into either: Long Island City; Flushing; Jamaica; Rockaway or Floral Park. Check the www.usps.gov and try to lookup up zip codes for queens ny or try to look at the acceptable names for any given zip code. Queens will not appear (except for Queens Village).
Actually, you could address a first class letter to
Elias
58652
and I'd have no problem getting it.
You still need a person's address and even last name. it would be no problem as long as you said at least:
Smith
123 Maple Street
12345
Years ago you could say just:
Smith
Maple Street
Bayside
and they would get it.
The Post Office now requires three line addresses.
But...
If you don't give it to them, and it is a first class letter, with no return address...
They will make a best effort to deliver it.
58652 will get the letter to the correct post office.
Once there, Fred *knows* who Elias is and where it needs to be delivered.
In other words, the first post office looks at the bottom line and finds a valid zip code. The end post office looks at the street address, and finding none, sees my name, and knows who I am (There is only *one* Elias in town, and everybody knows me anyway.) and delivers the mail to our place.
Simple.
Elias
Actually, you could address a first class letter to
Elias
58652
and I'd have no problem getting it.
Well... I tried just that... and it came back to me today marked "RETURNED FOR BETTER ADDRESS".
Anyway, email me your full address and I'll send it along.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Queens NY is not acceptable to the post office."
It most certainly is. Its OCR machines may not recognize it, but as long as you have placed a legible zip code on your envelope (especially if you have an accurate 9 digit zip), it really doesn't matter. The OCR will read the zip code.
Tell that to some of those lunch-drinkers who deliver the mail in my neighborhood. Mail with clearly legible addresses and zip codes still gets misdirected, and sometimes winds up in the TRASH. Face to face talks with the local postmaster go nowhere. What next, the postal inspectors? This happens when the regular carrier is either on vacation, out sick, or on a regular day off. An assortment of replacements come in who could care less and would do much worse.
Sorry to hear about that. It's true - the letter carrier at the post office has to do the final sorting.
A nine-digit zip code brings a letter riht to the block.
A nine digit zip code means that every man, woman, child and cow in Richardton can have their own personal zip code!
: )-
Elias
Actually, I think they used the town names in Queens more than they do in Brooklyn. It's more common to see an envelope addressed to let's say:
Middle Village, NY 12345 or
Forest Hills, NY 12345 or
Jamaica, NY 12345 than
Brownsville, NY 12345 or
Park Slope, NY 12345.
Most of the time for Brooklyn it usually is referred to as just
Brooklyn, NY 12345
In Manhattan it's even more so than Brooklyn. I've never seen:
Chelsea, NY 12345 instead if
New York, NY 12345
Out of the 5 boroughs, I think Queens uses it's town names more than any of the others.
I have NEVER seen a letter addressed to anything ohter than Brooklyn, NY (ie Bay Ridge, NY; Fort Greene, NY)
Not being from Queens and not really knowing the history, I'm not sure why they use the town names. Since Brooklyn was incorporated as its own city at one time, it is understandable why letters are addressed Brooklyn, NY.
But as far as Queens is concerned, when did Queens county join the City of New York? And prior to that, weren't they all seperate towns?
One thing I have also never seen is New York City, NY. I guess that would encompass too large of an area.
While I was a kid in school in Canarsie in the 1970's I use to see mail coming in as Canarsie, NY 11236. Before 1898 there was no such thing as Nassau County. There was Queens County which stretch from Kings County (Brooklyn) to Suffolk County. IN 1898 the towns of Jamica, Long Island City and NewTown decided top join New York City while the Town of Hempstead, North Hempstead and Oyster Bay backed out. The 3 towns created Nassau County. However the western towns of Queens kept on using the town names for the post office. They didnt change to Queens NY. It not until now they started using Queens NY.
The interesting thing about that is that Nassau wasn't created until 1899. Until then, the western towns of Queens were part of New York City, and the eastern towns that had declined to join the party were not.
Mark
They should have been lassoed in.
If you use New York, NY or New York City, NY, most people assume the address is in Manhattan.
New York used postal zones. Your address would have been
"New York, 17, New York" or
"New York, 24, New York"
Each number represented a post office to which the mail would be routed.
Now they would be 10017 or 10024 etc.
Elias
GP38 wrote:
Out of the 5 boroughs, I think Queens uses it's town names more than any of the others.
It's a bit more extreme: out of the 5 boroughs, Queens is the only one to use town (now neighborhood) names, and it uses them exclusively, at that.
As far as the post office is concerned, there's no such thing as "Queens NY," but provided the ZIP code is correct, the city and state never come into question.
Mark
The difference is that, when they formed the borough of Queens, the post office retained the separate post offices of Queens County, but they didn't do that in Brooklyn. This is preserved further by the fact that each Queens PO (Flushing, Jamaica, LIC, etc.) has itw own 3-number prefix, while Brooklyn is all 112.
The big exception used to be Ridgewood, which was a Brooklyn PO and zip code, and people would address their mail Ridgewood, NY 11227. Now it is a Queens PO.
I think another issue is that Brooklyn was an identifible SOMEPLACE pre-consolidation. It was a fairly sizable city which, by the time of consolidation, included the former towns of Kings County.
There was no City of Queens, just Queens County and tiny Queens Village, so not many people identified themselves as Queensites (Queensians?).
The big exception used to be Ridgewood, which was a Brooklyn PO and zip code, and people would address their mail Ridgewood, NY 11227. Now it is a Queens PO.
Correct. When I was a kid in Ridgewood, our Zip was 11227. It changed to 11385 i guess in the early 80's or late 70's. (Maybe it used the Brooklyn PO because Ridgewood is half in Queens and half in Brooklyn?) I guess the fact that Ridgewood kept the Brooklyn PO was the reason that my "Queens" section of Ridgewood was able to escape the Queens street name losses to the numbered system. My old block still retains the Brooklyn address numbers and all the streets still thankfully have their real names, not numbers. I used to live on "Putnam" Ave, and had a low numbered Brooklyn address, even though in Queens. It's funny, because Putnam Ave on the West side of Forest Ave is 1900's and the east side of Forest Ave, Putnam numbers are 60-00's. Very confusing as it's all Queens.
That's interesting....have you been noticing this in conversations or actually on pieces of mail? In conversation I often tell people I live in Queens, but when I put my return address on an envelope I always use the town name.
The following might be better suited for BusTalk, but since we're on the subject of town names, here goes. My mother's dentist is located in an area which is commonly referred to as Bayside, in zip code 11364. However, when she tried to book Access-A-Ride for a trip to the dentist, the address kept coming up as invalid in the Access-A-Ride agent's computer. My mother then asked me to try to book the trip, so I called Access-A-Ride, and got the same reply. The agent kept telling me that there was no such address in Bayside. I knew that the address was correct, so I asked the agent to try putting in Oakland Gardens instead of Bayside. (Oakland Gardens is a section of Bayside, and is the name of the post office for zip code 11364.) It worked. The dentist uses Bayside in his address, and when I lived in that zip code in the late 70s, everyone I knew there used Bayside, not Oakland Gardens....but in this case, Access-A-Ride's computers recognized only the Oakland Gardens name.
That's interesting....have you been noticing this in conversations or actually on pieces of mail? In conversation I often tell people I live in Queens, but when I put my return address on an envelope I always use the town name.
That is interesting, because I did the same thing. I used to live in Ridgewood. When people asked me where I lived I would usually say, "Queens". Put I always filled out my address as:
Ridgewood, NY 11385 on the return address.
It's funny that whenever I would get bulk mail, it would always come as: Flushing, NY 11385. (I guess that is where mail is sorted, I think a lot of "Queens" mail was addressed to "Flushing, NY Zip Code).
But it is confusing, as lived no where near Flushing, and to make it even more confusing, the "real" Flushing's zip code is 11358, and Ridgewood's is 11385. I have no idea why they would use Flushing (even if mail is sorted there). I never liked using "Queens" NY, but rather have had that than "Flushing" NY.
The Post Office divides Queens into four postal districts:Long Island City, Flushing, Jamaica, and Rockaway. Even though you don't live in Flushing you therefore have a Flushing (113--) zip, and have mail sent to you with a Flushing address. Shea Stadium, for example, is in Corona with a Flushing (11368) ZIP.
Yes. I know. I live in Oakland Gardens, 11364. But I almost always write "Queens, NY". I'm proud of my borough.
:-) Andrew
Yes, I retitled this thread, for a very specific reason which will become clear as you read on....
Most current neighborhoods in Queens were once incorporated villages and cities. Those villages and cities, in turn, were parts of seven towns which made up pre-1898 Queens County. At the time of unification, the Towns of Long Island City, Flushing, Jamaica, and Rockaway voted to join Greater New York, while the Towns of Hempstead, North Hempstead, and Oyster Bay chose to form their own county.
In the State of New York, the word "town" has the technical meaning of a political entity mid-way between a county and a city or village; a better term would be "sub-county." In Nassau County, for example, the Town of Hempstead includes the Cities of Hempstead and Long Beach plus the Villages of Floral Park, Elmont, Lynbrook, Valley Stream, Rockville Centre, and so forth. (BTW, the U.S. Postal Service still uses the Town system to a small degree, which is why Queens has four Zip Code prefixes - 110, 113, 114, 116 - instead of one.)
In 1915 Queens started renumbering their streets so that it would be one unified area. For about 20-25 years after that there were 2 official street names and addresses used in Queens. Then the new street names and addresses were declared official. I guess at the same time the neighborhood names were kept so avoid confusion. Now that 80-85 years have passed I guess the neighborhood names are being phased out by the post office.
As a side note, I once saw a zip code map for Brooklyn about 12-13 years ago. There were town names for Brooklyn assoicated with the zip codes. I suppose if I sent a letter to someone in Brooklyn there wouldn't be a problem if I sent it to Rugby, NY 11203 or Vanderveer, NY 11210 or Lefferts, NY 11235. As in Queens if the zip code is correct there should be no problems getting the mail there. Unless of course alot of people in the PO picking up the envelope and saying things like:
"WOW, I never heard of Van Brunt, NY 11224! It's in Brooklyn?"
Every post office has a station name, like Church Street, NY 10007 or Lenox Hill, NY 10021.
There were SIX towns in Queens County and one city (Long Island City). the Rockaways were part of Hempstead.
IMO, the Rockaways would have been far better off if they remained part of Hempstead. The only reason the Rockaways became part of NYC is so that it would have a much easier time developing the Jamaica Bay area into an industrial port, something that didn't happen (one thing to thank Robert Moses for). The Rockaways are otherwise useless to New York City.
The Rockaways still use LI electricity also, not Con Ed. That's why there are so many overhead poles in the Rockaways.
The Rockaways provide a sizable chunk of property tax to the City of New York...as well as income tax from the people that inhabit the area. I'd hardly call it useless to the city.
The Rockaways provide a sizable chunk of property tax to the City of New York...as well as income tax from the people that inhabit the area. I'd hardly call it useless to the city.
I don't know ... there's a lot of vacant land in the Rockaways, most notably in Arverne and Edgemere, that's not likely to be generating much property tax revenue. Far Rockaway has a good deal of city housing that of course produces no property tax revenue. Farther east, there's all the non-taxable Gateway property. Much of the area's privately owned property seems to be fairly low-valued and not a big revenue source. Given the low incomes of most Rockaways residents, income tax revenues probably are quite low on a per capita basis while demands on revenues are very high. I would suspect that only the Belle Harbor, Neponsit and Breezy Point sections are net revenue producers.
The Rockaways are otherwise useless to New York City.
The Rockaways could be one hell of a fine beach resort, as they once were, if the City wasn't so bumbling and corrupt.
and if they used the currently abandoned LIRR rockaway spur. If we used that spur connected it to the Queens Blvd subway getting to the Rockaways would be alot easier, instead of waiting for the Awhile train.
For now, the Q53 is the best way to go.
Which they almost certainly would be if they remained part of Hempstead.
It probably would have been like Long Beach and its neighbors.
That's a very silly and uninformed post. Just to address one aspect of it actually, the residents are better off in NYC, because Hempstead (and Nassau govt. in general) is so ineffective, they get far better services from NYC than Nassau could ever hope to provide.
And there are some reasonable development plans in the works. It will take time, but 10-15 years from now we'll see some very interesting and worthwhile things going on there.
And there are some reasonable development plans in the works. It will take time, but 10-15 years from now we'll see some very interesting and worthwhile things going on there.
Possibly. I suspect, however, that the Rockaways development plans are somewhat akin to the plans for the Second Avenue subway.
I understand your cynicism. Of course, to be fair, your cynicism has accomplished even less. :0)
Seriously - look at Jamaica: development efforts began with the Archer Av line, which started in 1972, and was completed in 1987. Fast forward 15 years (a long time, admittedly). Now look around. I visited last weekend (One Jamaica Center Mall is open, and AirTrain looks gorgeous. Hotels coming soon). I like what I see.
The Rockaways will need that kind of time.
Seriously - look at Jamaica: development efforts began with the Archer Av line, which started in 1972, and was completed in 1987. Fast forward 15 years (a long time, admittedly). Now look around. I visited last weekend (One Jamaica Center Mall is open, and AirTrain looks gorgeous. Hotels coming soon). I like what I see.
The Rockaways will need that kind of time.
The big redevelopment push in the Rockaways began with the clearance of Arverne and Edgemere, which resulted in today's bleak wastelands, back during the Ford Administration. We're talking over a quarter-century. Add another fifteen years, in line with the Jamaica timeline, and we're up to almost two generations.
That would be disgraceful if it weren't so absurd.
Better to focus on now, and not cry over spilled milk...
Alright, but Jamaica still requires structural improvements, namely in the pedestrian and transit department.
There is too much crowding and the high counts of people all around needs to be dealth ASAP.
With transit, the huge amount of bus routes also clutter the area. We need the work done quickly.
That's a very silly and uninformed post. Just to address one aspect of it actually, the residents are better off in NYC, because Hempstead (and Nassau govt. in general) is so ineffective, they get far better services from NYC than Nassau could ever hope to provide.
Poor people don't belong in the Rockaways. That might sound like a callous thing to say, but it is incredibly stupid to put low-income housing in a beautiful beachfront area and ruin what could be incredibly expensive real estate. Low-income housing can be built in ugly inland neighborhoods near (not in!) airports or heavy industial zones were the property values are low anyway.
And there are some reasonable development plans in the works. It will take time, but 10-15 years from now we'll see some very interesting and worthwhile things going on there.
This is ridiculous. The city controlled it for more than 100 years, and we'll only see worthwhile things in another 10-15 years?
Do yourself a favor and do some homework before you post. Look at development on Roosevelt Island, in Jamaica, in Harlem (where townhouses that were worth $20,000 15 years ago are worth 20 times that now).
Then maybe your posts will look more informed.
Do yourself a favor and do some homework before you post. Look at development on Roosevelt Island, in Jamaica, in Harlem (where townhouses that were worth $20,000 15 years ago are worth 20 times that now).
Roosevelt Island took years to develop and required a massive amount of taxpayer funding. There's been progress in Jamaica, that's undeniable, but it also took many years and is still very much a work in progress. The Harlem townhouses increased in value not because of government program, but as a result of market forces.
What does this have to do with what I posted? I never said that poor neighborhoods can't improve and that rich neighborhoods can't decline, only that the Rockaways is no place for low income housing. Jamaica and Harlem can swing both ways (their natural resources are neither a benefit nor a detriment).
And I'm sorry if you think I was wrong, because apparently, according to the RonInBayside school of thought:
Agreeing with RonInBayside: Right
Disagreeing with RonInBayside: Uninformed post, do your homework.
You still have said nothing to counter my claim that the Rockaways are in a bad condition other than the fact that improvement is just over the horizon (just like it has been for the last century).
As it stands, the Rockaways have done nothing but decline since unification, and you have shown no evidence otherwise. It seems that YOU are the one who needs to do his homework.
Look at neighboring Atlantic/Long/Lido Beaches. The area is nice and includes a mix of incomes along the barrier island. There are still thriving business and beaches. The Rockaways have little of that. With the exception of some corners of Far Rockaway, everything east of Beach 116th Street is a vast wasteland, a large portion is because the CITY OF NEW YORK demolished it. Those empty lots improve the Rockaways?
"never said that poor neighborhoods can't improve and that rich neighborhoods can't decline, only that the Rockaways is no place for low income housing."
I'm glad you cleared that up, because your previous posts have both expressed and implied a great deal more than that.
"Disagreeing with RonInBayside: Uninformed post, do your homework. "
In this case, unfortunately, that's true.
"You still have said nothing to counter my claim that the Rockaways are in a bad condition other than the fact that improvement is just over the horizon (just like it has been for the last century)."
I never said the Rockaways were not in poor shape. Actually, parts of the Rockaways are in poor shape. I said that, even in poor shape, they are better off in NYC than in Nassau County. If you want evidence of that, look at Nassau County financial condition during the last administration.
"As it stands, the Rockaways have done nothing but decline since unification, and you have shown no evidence otherwise."
Not true. Portions of it have thrived - and you pointed to them yourself. As to the rest, development is pending (as it was in Jamaica).
Have you actually been through those areas? I have, on foot. It's not good news, but it's not the worst of all possible world either. There's still some pretty decent beach there to be had.
"It seems that YOU are the one who needs to do his homework. "
I don't think so. Reread your posts, then mine, and try again.
"With the exception of some corners of Far Rockaway, everything east of Beach 116th Street is a vast wasteland, a large portion is because the CITY OF NEW YORK demolished it. Those empty lots improve the Rockaways?"
The City had to demolish them. As to improvements, no improvement would be possible without demolishing first. So the empty lots are opportunities. I'm impatient to see improvements, but I know we need to be patient.
So the empty lots are opportunities. I'm impatient to see improvements, but I know we need to be patient.
Horse s**t. It's been 30 years, nothing has been done, and nothing is in the works. We'll all probably be stinking up a coffin before anything gets done. Making excuses for the city is very very wrong.
I'm not making excuses for the city. What's past is past. The only thing that matters now is what goes on from this pont on.
Are you making excuses for people who whine cynically, and then sit on their asses and contribute nothing? (I'm not saying you personally do nothing, however).
The City had to demolish them.
Why?
With the exception of some corners of Far Rockaway, everything east of Beach 116th Street is a vast wasteland, a large portion is because the CITY OF NEW YORK demolished it. Those empty lots improve the Rockaways?
The city condemned and demolished the existing properties in Arverne and Edgemere as part of a urban renewal plan in the 1970's, but unfortunately did not see the project through to completion. It may have been a situation where the money ran out before anything could be built.
Far Rockaway is another matter. It was not demolished like Arverne and Edgemere to its east, but for reasons I don't entirely know it has deteriorated into what today is basically a ghetto. Actually, one factor that has contributed to its decline was the city's decision to build some of its vilest housing projects in the 'hood, projects which allegedly are used as dumping grounds for tenants who have been thrown out of projects elsewhere due to misbehavoir.
All in all, the condition of the Rockaways is - or should be - a source of shame for the city.
The cit's policies in the 1970's and '80s were underfunded and misguided, it's true. These policies did not rule out any kind of renewal, however.
Why can they just develop The Rockaways to be like Battery Park City area. Make the place an upper Middle Class area and the city would get lots of revenue from it.
Why can they just develop The Rockaways to be like Battery Park City area. Make the place an upper Middle Class area and the city would get lots of revenue from it.
Geography would be a problem. The Rockaways are a long haul from Manhattan's jobs, in contrast to the very conveniently located Battery Park City. In addition, while there's plenty of vacant land in Arverne and Edgemere, Far Rockaway is densely populated. Any major redevelopment plan would require many relocations, which is both politically difficult and costly.
I find it odd that the city would choose to build housing projects right near a site earmarked for "urban renewal" (the Federal Government's euphemism for "removing poor minorities so rich white folks can buy their land cheap and sell it for a fortune").
>>> "urban renewal" (the Federal Government's euphemism for "removing poor minorities so rich white folks can buy their land cheap and sell it for a fortune"). <<<
It is not the Federal Government behind the scam. Usually a plan is submitted which calls for the temporary relocation of the low income inhabitants with new low income housing to be built for them in the renewed area. Once the poor have been moved off the land and the land cleared, the redevelopers suddenly realize they do not have the funds to complete the project as originally envisioned. Work stops, and nothing but temporary parking lots appear for several years. Finally local government decides they need something more than empty spaces to increase tax revenues, and the land is sold to private developers not bound by the original plan who build for the highest commercial return. In Los Angeles, the Bunker Hill project took more than 40 years to complete the cycle.
Tom
well,just goes to show you....poor people still get treated as ''third class etc''. I somewhat disagree with you,because I came from a simular situation[mom was a teacher/pops worked for the T.A.],so we were right in the middle...not poor,but nowhere near rich. There were times when the ''belt'' had to be tighted,but over all ..comfortable. Living in Bed-Sty,with the other less fortunate,kinda made me question,are we poor? As an adult,I know that wasn't the case,but during the 60/70's,we lived in a browstone[parents owned it]and mostly everybody else ''rented/welfare''.Is it because we lived there,did that make us ''appear'' to be ''poor''?
Also it's stupid to put low income housing far away from central CBD's like Manhattan. The distance isn't gonna help these people get richer.
Poor people should go where they can afford to go. It just so happens that the low demand areas are far from the city.
Most current neighborhoods in Queens were once incorporated villages and cities. Those villages and cities, in turn, were parts of seven towns which made up pre-1898 Queens County. At the time of unification, the Towns of Long Island City, Flushing, Jamaica, and Rockaway voted to join Greater New York, while the Towns of Hempstead, North Hempstead, and Oyster Bay chose to form their own county.
It was the towns of Flushing, Jamaica, Newtown, Hempstead, North Hempstead, and Oyster Bay. Southwest Queens was the Town of Newtown. I'm not sure whether Long Island City was an actual city or a village or what.
BTW Nassau County did not form right when the city unification happenned. It was about a year later, 1899.
In the State of New York, the word "town" has the technical meaning of a political entity mid-way between a county and a city or village; a better term would be "sub-county." In Nassau County, for example, the Town of Hempstead includes the Cities of Hempstead and Long Beach plus the Villages of Floral Park, Elmont, Lynbrook, Valley Stream, Rockville Centre, and so forth.
A city is not part of any town, even if it surrounded on all sides by one. Thus Long Beach is not in the Town Of Hempstead, Glen Cove is not in the Town of Oyster Bay, Peekskill is not in the Town Of Cordlandt, etcedra and so on. However, Hempstead is in the Town Of Hempstead. Despite appearances, it is not a city, but a village, the largest in New York State. There has been talk lately of it becomming a city.
A "village" in New York State is an incorporated area that remains part of the town in which it located. Let's say it is autonomous, but not idependent. Most local services--street maitenance, snow removal, sanitation--are provided by the village, but the town might still do tax collection and other things. All of your above exampls are villages except for Elmont, which is a hamlet. A hamlet is what an unincorporated community is called in NY State. It depends completely upon the town for all government functions, except for school, fire, and water districts. I grew up in a hamlet in the Town of Hempstead: Levittown, NY 11756.
:-) Andrew
Southwest Queens was the Town of Newtown.
Sorry. Northwest Queens was the Town Of Newtown. My bad.
:-) Andrew
A hamlet is what an unincorporated community is called in NY State. It depends completely upon the town for all government functions, except for school, fire, and water districts. I grew up in a hamlet in the Town of Hempstead: Levittown, NY 11756.
"Hamlet" generally connotes a tiny community, which of course Levittown isn't! New York's strange nomenclature never ceases to amaze me.
Indeed. Levittown has over 53,000 people. It is larger than all but (I think) ten of NY State's cities.
:-) Andrew
County territories in NY are so confusing - but I suspect they serve the purposes of graft and corruption very well.
Long Island City was incorporated as a city in 1870. Thus it was no longer a part of Newtown.
Back in 1969(!), I said I lived in Rochdale Village, because that was the Post Office district that served my neighborhood, and most people got that confused with the Co-Op. They corrected me and told me to use the real name of the area, St. Alban's, because that was the name of the section of Jamaica. In 1970, I was glad to get the hell out of this town naming crap and went to good old generic Philadelphia, PA, an city designation that was universal regardless of whatever neighborhood I lived in. But alas, I moved out of Philly and moved here to Collingswood, New Jersey. But get this, my address is in the 08107 zip code, and this code is the Oaklyn Post Office, but my address is in the Boro Of Collingswood. Pretty confusing huh? Most of my mail says Oaklyn, even though I live in Collingswood.
That's a similar situation to what we have at our home in North Carolina. We live in an unincorporated area known variously as Cypress Creek, Seven Paths, or (more recently) Lake Royale. The nearest town (3.5 miles west of our house), where our children went to school, is Bunn. Our address, if we chose to get our mail at a mailbox up on the main road (half mile from our house), would be Louisburg (15 miles northwest). (We have a post office box in Bunn.) Our telephone number is on the Spring Hope exchange (9 miles east), in a different area code nonetheless.
In New Jersey we live in Eatontown; the adjacent municipality of Tinton Falls shares zip codes with four other towns (Ocean, Eatontown, Shrewsbury, and Lincroft), depending on which part of Tinton Falls you're in.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's a matter of local custom that kind of befuddles me. After all, Brooklyn is a large borough too, yet people do not address their letters Bay Ridge, Williamsburgh or Fort Greene!
And, Brooklyn barely approved its absorption by NYC in 1898. Even today, many Brooklynites think of it as a captured province.
Yet, it is Queens which clings, at least in the most obvious manner, to its small-town past.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Before the Manhattan Occupation... Brooklyn *was* a CITY named "Brooklyn". OTH Queens never was a city.
Brooklyn is *NOT* a county. "Kings" *is* a county, and you would NOT address a letter to "Kings, New York"!
Queens had several towns which were known by their names.
Now the old Brooklyn 'city limits' did not IIRC include Bay Ridge or Canarsie, but most of what is now Flatbush was just that: a flat bush land with nobody living there. That is why the south Brooklyn lines connect 'out-there' to the city (Brooklyn)
: ) Elias
There was a brief period of time, only two years, in which the independent City of Brooklyn controlled all of Kings County.
Now I can't say what would be better, an independent Brooklyn controlling all of Kings County or each of the towns still being independent. I feel no affinity whatsoever for the Town of Flatlands, I don't consider it to be the Brooklyn-occupied Town of Flatlands. On the other hand, what makes Brooklyn's takeover of the other towns different from New York's takeover of the other boroughs? Isn't it a double standard if I let Brooklyn takeover but not New York?
Hey, How about making Manhattan and the Bronx into the city of New York, Brooklyn and Staten Island the city of Brooklyn, and make Queens and Nassau county merge(they still would be smaller than Suffolk). ???
Uh....no.
:-) Andrew
Sounds about as good an idea as transferring Staten Island into NJ.
The Post Office is all screwed up when it comes to NYC addresses. Postal conventions do not recognize the Consolidation, and handle Queens and Brooklyn addresses as if it were some time before 1898. So Brooklyn, a former city, is its own "postal city", while Queens, a former suburban county, has several "postal cities" within it.
This is offensive to me, a proud New Yorker from Queens, as it ought to be to all proud New Yorkers. The format is supposed to be "city, state". My city is "New York". Yet, this is not indicated in the official preferred address.
I mean, I love Queens, and I consider Woodhaven to be the center of the universe. But, my city is New York; indeed, the main reason that Queens and Woodhaven have the beauty and the meaning that I enjoy so much is that they are places within New York City!
(Whenever some fool in Queens uses the term "the City" to mean Manhattan alone, as in, "I'm going to the City", that ignoramus gets an earful from me. That usage insults me, because it essentially calls me a "suburbanite". There are few insults worse than that to a proud New Yorker! Them's fighing words!)
On the specific issue of community versus borough name in Queens, I concur with our firefighting friend who said that he uses "Queens" because few people have heard of the community names.
This ties in with does the larger issue of lack of New York City identification of NYC addresses. It is absurd that a New York City address such as "Fresh Meadows, NY" exists; unless someone from out of town knew independently that this was in NYC, that person could think that maybe this town was up near the Canadian border!
This is New York, dammit! Let's act like it. Whether people in Queens or any other borough outside Manhattan use the community name or the borough name, the simple solution is to put "NYC" following it, and before the state name. So:
Brooklyn, NYC, NY
Bronx, NYC, NY
Queens, NYC, NY - (or "community name", NYC, NY)
Staten Is., NYC, NY
Manhattan would still exclusively be "New York, NY", which is fine, because it is the heart of our City.
This is my convention, and it ought to be the Postal convention. The Post Office should use this practice because it better describes reality. And we New Yorkers should use it (regardless of whether the Post Office ever does) because it expresses our pride in our great City.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Queens, NYC, NY
Very well said ,my friend.
People say "the City" when the mean downtown.
That's OK with me.
When I say "The City", I mean "New York City",
NOT "Bismarck" or "Dickinson" or "Minniapolis" or "Seattle" etc,
I mean "THE CITY!"
Elias
>>> When I say "The City", I mean "New York City",
NOT "Bismarck" or "Dickinson" or "Minniapolis" or "Seattle" etc,
I mean "THE CITY!" <<<
I hope your accent is strong enough so a listener does not think you mean San Francisco. :-)
Tom
Or that tiny bit full of banks and insurance companies in the centre of London (snore!).
I will disagree with you. I can't counter any of your points because it is your opinion. This is mine.
I don't have a problem writing my address as Brooklyn, NY 11234. Not only have I done this my whole life (along with Brooklyn, NY 11230 and Brooklyn, NY 11223), but I don't feel that by doing this I'm pretending I live in a suburb of a great city, because I don't: I live in a great city: THE NEW YORK-OCCUPIED CITY OF BROOKLYN!!!!
I don't have a problem with Brooklyn being in New York...state. The city doesn't belong on this side of the East River.
American Pig
BROOKLYN, NY
So why don't you spend some time and effort and get Brooklyn to join Nassau County? Perhaps the historians of the world would rank Thomas Gullotta as much more effective than Rudy Guiliani and Nassau finances much more effectively run than NYC finances (police officers on light desk duty earning over $100,000 a year including overtime etc.) - and being close to bankruptcy year after year after year is proof of good acumen, isn't it?
You could write a new history book - American Pig's History of New York, Part I. Maybe Mel Brooks would make a movie out of it...
Why would I want Brooklyn to be part of Nassau County? You yourself said that Nasty County is horribly corrupt and mismanaged.
We can't figure out how independent Brooklyn would have functioned if we use Nassau County as the example, they are nothing alike.
If I had my way, Nassau County would never have existed.
So you want to establish a Kings County independent of the city of New York...the opening sequence of the TV show Welcome Back Kotter (from the 1970's) featured a sign claiming Brooklyn was the 4th largest city in America.
Not too many people in Brooklyn would back you up, though - primarily because not too many feel neglected by city hall. And transit-wise, the TA is headquarted in Brooklyn (though MTA is in Manhattan)
I have resided in Brooklyn and Queens my whole life and it's true, I have always felt that Manhattan is a completely different entity. I understand why "outer-borough" (as the Other Four are called in the guidebooks) residents refer to Manhattan as "the city."
I came along too late to be resentful that Manhattan 'captured' the "Other Four" in 1898; little of that sentiment still existed in the 60s and 70s when I came of age. I am thankful, though, that I was raised in Brooklyn which has less of the artifice and self-importance that Manhattan is known for, though since the rich have taken over Park Slope and are making inroads elsewhere, some of Brooklyn has adopted an Manhattan-ish aura. Which I don't like.
www.forgotten-ny.com
...Where all five boroughs are equally important
Not too many people in Brooklyn would back you up, though - primarily because not too many feel neglected by city hall.
Don't be fooled = there are growing secessionist movements and growing dissatisfaction... The Staten Island secessionists were bribed with a free ferry and they are quiet for now.. But My neighbors in Astoria feel VERY neglected and completely out of touch with city hall. Like I said in another post - we feel that we are ruled by a government of Manhattanites, by Manhattanites, and for Manhattanites. Several years ago there was a blizzard and Triboro Coach could't run busses for two days - but the Manhattanite bus service was back to normal the next day - this is but one example!!
In 1967 the great T, QT/QB services were ripped out from under us and replaced with the lousy RR without anyone asking Astorians how they felt.
Finally, Brooklyn has THREE FREE bridges to Manhattan, and the Bronx has even more. Queens only gets ONE free bridge - that to me is even more evidence of anti-Queens discrimination!
Right you are, except writing "Queens, NY" does the trick as well as or better than tacking "NYC" in between the "postal city" and state. People do generally know the names of the five boroughs.
I almost always write "Queens, NY", though I occassionally get some flack for it.
:-) Andrew
"(Whenever some fool in Queens uses the term "the City" to mean Manhattan alone, as in, "I'm going to the City", that ignoramus gets an earful from me. That usage insults me, because it essentially calls me a "suburbanite". There are few insults worse than that to a proud New Yorker! Them's fighing words!)"
These are not fools. These are people who grew up hearing their parents and grandparents use this term. I have in-laws who have lived in Queens for 80 years, and they are not going to suddenly start saying "Manhattan" when they have been saying "the city" for all that time.
It's just the same as using the old Queens street names instead of the "new" street numbers. You continue with what you grew up with. I hear "the city" much less from younger Queens residents.
Queens is a huge place if some one said 21 st in Queens I wouldn't have a clue where it is. If someone said 21 St in Long Island City I would know where they are talking about.
In Queens, the address tells the whole story. There is only one 43-XX 21st Street in Queens, NY. It is based on the cross street. Even in The Rockaways, there are no adresses that duplicate the main part of Queens. All street numbers have the "Beach" prefix.
Take it from a Queens resident or native (even though I grew up in Levittown) There is no good reason to use the neighborhood name instead of "Queens". If you tell an out of towner you live in Fresh Meadows or Rego Park, they will invariably ask you where that is. Answer: Queens. "Queens" has much more meaning to our local identity than the neighborhood names. That's especially true in some of the lesser known neighborhood names. Arverne, NY? Beechurst, NY? Oakland Gardens, NY? They do indeed sound like they could be up near the Canadian border. But they're in Queens! And by the way, the "Town" we live in, such as it is, is New York City.
Ideally, all NYC addresses should be "New York, NY". But that would not be feasible unless they do a major overhaul of street names and numbers. Way too many duplicates. So "New York, NY" applies to Manhattan and Queens should make like its sisters, The Bronx, Brooklyn and Staten Island and be "Queens, NY".
A little Queens pride, everyone!
:-) Andrew
Take it from a Queens resident or native (even though I grew up in Levittown)
Sorry, that's Queens resident AND native. To clarify, I was born in Queens, raised in Levittown, NY and now once again live in Queens.
:-) Andrew
When am asked where I was born, I always say Rockaway Beach New York . Never Queens or New York City.
Does the MTA sell the large 4'x5' map posters in the Transit museum store? I'd like one to frame.
I remember they used to, but I haven't been there since the museum closed for renovations. I think there's an MTA souvenir shop at Grand Central, but having never been there I must defer to others.
Mark
Yes they do but in my experience they don't always have them. Call ahead to avoid disappointment...
I've bought the huge one that fits into the ad panels at the Transit Museum, but that was a while ago. (The Archer extension is on it, but so is the JFK Express, so I guess it's from about 1990 or so).
There's a guy that has them on e-bay---I've bought a couple from him myself. When you go into E-Bay, search under the topic "subway map" and his listing usually looks like "HUGE--SUBWAY WALL MAP...."
I got one him, too. Mine has the 63rd St. Connection under construction post the MannyB flip, a rather rare map.
I just got one back in June for a birthday gift. From that guy on E-bay.
Can I ask you guys if you have yours framed? If so where did you find a frame that large? If not, how are you displaying/protecting it? Thanks.
Mine has been hanging in my basement for over 10 years. It looks just as good as whaen I got it (it's unframed). They are pretty durable as they are meant to be put up on the "ad billboards" in the subway.
Mine are still sitting in their tubes----There area a couple of framers in the area but it would be a bit pricey to get it framed. BTW, I also know how to get "wall size" maps of Washington's Metro..Let me know if you're interested.
Mark
Funny, that is why I got mine but it was June of 2000 for me, I think.
Mine is unframed and sits in the mailing tube in my closet. I don't have much room for a map that size on my wall.
There's a guy at the MTA Headquarters in Brooklyn that sells them from his desk. I got his info from the cashier at the Transit Museum Store at GCT when they ran out. I believe he always has the newest version and they cost $20 a piece. I went there last July and bought two copies of the July 2001 map. One I have hanging up in my room (it has been moved a few times so has some small rips) and the other one is still rolled up. I tape it to the wall with scotch tape.
I also have a 1989 wall map that I bought from a vendor at the Hoboken Festival about eight or nine years ago. It talks about the new Archer Av extension and the reopening of the Manhattan Bridge.
--Brian
I am an entering freshman into stuyvesant high school.
I have heard of the club, but dont know what happens in it.
so... what is the club about
(was/is anyone here in it)
There wasn't a Subway Club when I went to Stuyvesant (but, then again, that was 40 years ago).
-- Ed Sachs
There wasn't a Subway Club when I went to Stuyvesant (but, then again, that was 40 years ago).
Ed, when we went to school they didn't have electric lights or paper books either. Remember writing on those stone tablets abd using hourglasses to time the end of class periods?
C'mon Paul, the next thing you'll say is that you don't remember those ink wells in the upper right hand corner of your desk!
We had to give up those inkwells because the decline of the duck and goose population in Brooklyn made quills much harder to get.
While I was still in school you could get ball point pens but they were unreliable and made blobs of ink and I don't recall we were ever allowed to use them. Remember using the levers to refill our fountain pens and the color of ink we were required to buy?
I still remember how the teacher used to pass up and down the rows filling our ink wells from a bottle the size of a quart wine bottle.
When I got my first fountain pen I carried a blotter in every one of my school books to keep the point clean. I loved filling that thing and I realized that half of each filling was ending up on the blotter when I cleaned the point.
Those Scripto mechanical pencils came into vogue when I reached high school. I was always fascinated by the different colors that were available for the pencil itself. I wondered why they didn't have different colors for the lead.
I wondered why they didn't have different colors for the lead.
I used colored pencils in drafting. The regular "lead" pencils used graphite, which I think is inherently black. I don't know if there is any way to color graphite.
The colored pencils had some different kind of substance for the lead, I think. Sometimes it seemed more waxy/crayon like. I don't know if it was/os possible to turn these colored "leads" into something hard enough to put into a mechanical pencil yet still "draw" in the right way.
My favorite Scripto mechanical pencil was a medium green that was translucent. I always wished that I could have gotten one in the darker green, like the green that the BMT was using to repaint the gate cars. That BMT green was the nicest shade I ever saw. I often wonder why that shade never turned up on any of the other BMT equipment.
I never got to use any colored pencils while in school although I was aware that they existed.
We had to use fountain pens in the parochial school I attended before we left Indiana, and I still used that same pen during my first few years in public school in Jersey. I remember how my right thumb and index finger would be all blue or black from the ink. My junior high school in Jersey still had old desks with inkwell holders.
My history room desks still have the holes where the ink well would be
I'm surprised! I would have thought those old style desks would have been replaced years ago.
they are in only this room... it is modeled after an old building(15th st) room
2nd floor right? 229 or 227, somewhere around there.
229
[I'm surprised! I would have thought those old style desks would have been replaced years ago.]
The "old-style" desks, complete with inkwell holes and scratches, remained in the East 15th Street building right up to closing day in 1992. One roomfull of them went to the Chambers Street building for the so-called "museum" room (now the "Dr. Aloysius Edward Stefanacci Memorial Classroom").
Okay, now. Let's get back to trains.
For this time of year, they should have paired the historical desks with the Gaspar Fabracante Memorial Air-Conditioner -- the principal's office (and the dark room in the photo lab on the fifth floor) were the only cool rooms in the old building at the start and finish of the school year.
Do you know if that is Dr. Fabracante who was a Spanish teacher at Jamaica High School from 1979-1981?
No, unless he was demoted -- Gaspar was Stuyvestant's principal in the early 1970s (and had the habit of often arriving late and leaving early from school, which you could get away with at Stuyvesant, since it didn't have the discipline problems other NYC high schools had).
Thanks.
I spent many hours in that photo lab, as well as the one in the basement of my home in Brooklyn. No subway club, but we had a very active photography club in those days. I used to help out the photography teacher during my lunch hour (I believe his name was Mr. Gruosso, or something like that). Still remember the day I went in to the Darkroom before a class was supposed to start and flipped on the light switches outside the light-trap only to hear a scream from inside -- the principal (I believe his name was Dr. Fliedner) was in there doing some enlarging. Seems like it was less than a week after that when the switches were replaced with ones requiring a key to operate.
-- Ed Sachs
Somehwere I have a picture of Principal Fabracnate making one of his rare forays above the second floor. He showed up in the photo lab one early Spring afternoon and I got a shot of him standing next to a photo lab student, both looking equally perplexed as to why their picture was being taken(and wherever that shot is also is where I have some great shots of a Flushing Line R-36 WF Bluebird coming around the curve into 33rd St. just before sunset with the Manhattan skyline in the backround, just to get this thread slightly back on topic. One of these days when I decide to spend a weekend in the storage room...)
Kewl!
Do you still have desks where the back of one is attached to the front of the one behind?
yup.. the front desks have a seat backs... but no seat or desk to go with them
they are there for historical purposes
One of my freshman advisees at MIT just graduated from Stuyvesant. I'll ask him about it.
Perhaps you should search for the poster "J trainloco". I believe he currently attends Stuy.
During my Stuyvesant days (class of '83), there was a "Straphangers Club," which I never joined because I hadn't yet become a railfan. The club even had a display case with various station signs, roller curtains, metal "strap" handles, and other paraphernalia.
I would guess that the club's meetings would have sounded pretty much like SubTalk, had it existed then.
Wow, so many stuy heads here, I graduated from Brooklyn Tech class of 89' so I'm a tech head.
I remember posters for it when I was a Freshman or Sophomore there in 1996-98, but I never went (I didn't care that much for the subway back then).
You go to Stuy?! Stuy's a good skool! I was 8 points form that skool! Now, I'm stuck at Science... ( begins weeping) ( Kicks self) If only I finished that last question on the entrance exam... Doh!
are you taking the test again, or do you not have the chanc anymore?
I'm now a sophmore, and toatlly bombed the last test. I thought that you were older cause of your handle was an old model train.
It's the "Straphanger's Club"
Hi, my name is Mike, and I'm a Junior at Stuyvesant High. The subway club has Mr. Wisotsky as its faculty advisor and I am the webmaster for his website.
The subway club meets either every week or every other week. Usually the topics range from discussing current NYC Subway stuff (Lines, General Orders, Cars) as well as other subway lines around the country and around the world (London Underground, Chicago El, etc.).
For more information and meeting times, contact Mr. Wisotsky (nickname W-Train, LOL) either in person (check the social studies department) or via e-mail at ewisotsky@stuy.edu
Best Wishes in Stuy,
Mike DiMeglio, Homeroom 5A
What happened to Arcady? Last school year he was planning for
the club to visit us at Shore Line / Branford trolley museum
but was unable to schedule a date.
Heck if I know.
There was a subway club back when I went to Stuyvesant (Class of '72). The "Holy Grail" in those days: finding the test train of R-44's.
I belive A. Edward Steffanacci was the faculty advisor.
I and 'DaWheelFlange"'s dad pre-date you by 5 years (Class of '67). Wish there was a subway/bus club back then. I remember Mr Stef as a history teacher and a cool guy (never had him). Once chaperoned a dance with Mr. Irgang (economics). Took a while to live that one down.
BTW - Da Wheel Flange just graduated Stuy Class '02 and is at the University of Rochester.....His website is www.nyrail.org and you can e-mail him through there.
Irgang was a really good teacher, even though he was outwardly very eccentric. (I had him for Economics, too.) He'd be in his classroom every morning at 7:00am or so, playing his opera records, waiting for a student or two to come in and get econ tutoring, or just talk about or classical music.
Hmmm. This is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that there would be this many former students of the same high school on one chat room. Or this many kids on an infrastructure board (you guys and kids are generally mature enough not to give yourself away).
Larry Littlefield, Memorial High School, Tulsa OK
(Remember that depression back in the 1970s? Some of us finished high school in odd places when our Dads had to move to get jobs).
It's interesting that there are so many current and past Stuyvesant students on this board. Do you think it has something to do with the fact that we had to commuter from all corners of the city to get to school?
Me, I was in the Class of 2000.
Any others want to fess up? We can make a list.
So you're two years out of the ol' high school, eh?
What are you up to now?
There are quite alot of past and present Tech heads here too.
Such as myself
College Prep - 1972
I'm one of them
Architecture - 1996 (I wish the south side side of the Manhattan Bridge was open during my Tech years - it would have made my commute from the Bronx so much faster)
I'm on the same tracks 8 years behind you.
So you're just starting out at Tech now? Well at least the Bridge trains are going up Broadway now. When I went to Tech, all bridge trains went over 6th Avenue with its shitty IRT transfers. If the Q ran on Braodway from 1992-96, I would've saved 10-15 minutes off my commute.
Class of 2004. I'm a Junior.
Class of 89' rite here, i used to take the GG to Fulton everyday. Those were the days...
We had a "battery run" this morning. At Bethesda, the T/O announced the train's next stop would be Grosvenor. All the other really happy passengers got off leaving myself as the only passenger and a supervisor, who asked through the cab door what the train number was. Operator couldn't remember but when he returned to the console, he yelled back 213. We went manual all the way and when we were passing the new garage at Grosvenor and the operator called into the dispatcher, the dispatcher told him to clear the train as quickly as possible. He didn't do the usual out of service announcements at Grosvenor once the doors opened. I also saw a 4 car train heading to Glenmont which had two Bredas and two Rohrs. Also, for those interested, after my one Breda ride earlier this week, I have gotten all Rohrs and the trains behind mine have all been Rohrs, too.
Today, I saw a R68/68a on the southbound express track at Church Av/Culver about 3:30. The F was crowded and the train was accelerated so i couldn't make out the train number or see if its R68 or 68a. I DID see it's signed as a (A) train. Any answers to why it might be there? Thanks
no answers?
Probably heading to Coney Island Shops for some R&R. There isn't a car class in the system that doesnt visit there at some point.
the 207th R38s go there???
Movie shout. I saw a G.O. for it for Monday as well.
Robert
Woody Allen strikes again.
R68A 5064 was part of the trainset. I took a picture as I was riding by...it was sill there at 7PM. The southern destination sign was howard beach/JFK.
There was a bride and groom on the platform as well..
That'd be SOME stretch limo.
Most likely something was being filmed there.
Now, according to the MTA announcement earlier this year; they plan to reinstate the South Ferry Branch by New Years and could you tell me the progress of reconstructing this portion, particularly with the demolition of the IRT Cortlandt St. Station?
I know that the IRT Cortlandt St. station won't be reinstated at least in a few years, am I correct?
Actually the test trains have been running through it already, and it should reopen by September 15th of this year - way ahead of schedule.
You are right, Cortlandt will remain a station shell ( with false walls) until they decide what will be built on the site and how it will be built.
Chris
By the way, you asked about the status of the old Cortlandt Street station also - it is completely gone and removed.
Will it be reinstated in at least a few years, since the MTA have announced that there are plans to rebuild the station and once the new developments are in place?
By the way, this is what the MTA said about their announcement for the IRT Cortlandt Station (part of their program to reinstate the South Ferry Branch):
In addition, the lower than originally anticipated cost of the contract, at $92 million, was also made possible by the rapid excavation of the site above the subway station over the past five months.?The extent of the excavation to date makes unnecessary the expenditure of millions of dollars that had been estimated would need to be spent to simply reach the damaged sections of the facility.? This contract, however, will not replace the Cortlandt Street station itself.?That project, also part of the total reconstruction effort, will be designed and awarded in the future as the MTA works with the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation and other entities to determine the most appropriate location for street access and integration with the PATH system.
I rode an R142 #2 train, and saw an R62 signed up as a 3 (even though out of service) laying up on the northbound local platform at Chambers Street on Friday 9/7. There was a crew inside, so I am sure that the train I saw ran around the South Ferry Branch.
There are A division crews that were hired after 9/11 that have trained on that section of the IRT.
Test trains observed yesterday.
(Cars 1954, 2026, 2075 among them)
A set was on the northbound local platform at Chambers St. yesterday.
For All AOL users, AOL has secretly released AOL 8.0 Beta Software and is available for download, I am currently downloading the software now, so everybody that was having problems with 7.0 try downloading 8.0 which should have less problems.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Not so fast! The 8.0 you are talking about is only the Beta version. In other words the trial version, where they get feedback from the public to get out the last bugs, or glitches. I too have 8.0 Beta, and it made my computer crash twice while trying to sign on. It still has it's bugs, and will probably be so until the Final Version is released.
Ok Thanks for the Tip!
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Your welcome.
Wait a minute, so this means AOL never releases its software from Beta level?
As a tester, you're not talk about the contents of it. I was officially de-AOL-ified within the last 24 hours. Thank god. When I canceled, they gave me 3 free months they "never got to giving me". And when I checked yesterday, they tried to give me another month so I can make a "smooth transition" out of it. But it's done now.
Mazel Tov!
HAHAHAHAHA!!!
-Hank
What the hell is so funny???
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
AOL ever being over any of it's problems, pretty good joke there. I had AOL for 2 or 3 years, it sucks, go cable and you will never look back, almost the same price for hundreds of times the speed. None of the frilly stuff that bogs AOL down, no connecting, no getting kicked off by incoming calls, and, best of all, no more 'You've got mail!.' Just internet, and fast internet at that. AOL sucks, period.
I am going to AOL Cable within the next 2 months, or DSL, I don't think they offer Cable in my Area, BTW, AOL 8.0 is off the hook!!!
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Actually, I happen to like AOL. They have given me no problems, except their mail system which is difficult to use, but I use an external unix host for my mail so I don't even use my @aol address. As a dial up system, they do pretty well for $20 per month. Tell me where you can get cable for $20 per month. No sign up fees, no installation fees, no hardware purchase, just $20 a month, and I can cancel anytime I want.
AEM7
Cable is a rip-off, money wise. 200 channels of programming with 140 of them being reruns of the other 60...
I use AT&T worldnet for dial-up email (I've had it a long time). I also use Verizon DSL (which gives me another email box). I could drop the AT&T service but I've had that email address for along time and people always know where to find me, and the service is very decent. I pay at the level where I get tech support. You can pay as little as $9 a month but then they charge you for tech. assistance...
Cable is far better than DSL service.
It costs the same as DSL if you don't subscribe to cable TV, but meanwhile is more reliable and faster. There are also no resrictions with regard to distance.
If you do have cable TV (I'd rather cut out the middleman and throw the money right into the toilet), it costs less than DSL.
Here in Brooklyn, there is no digital cable. The cable service costs MORE than DirecTV and you get LESS.
It's cheaper to have DTV and cable modem and not get the TV subscriber discount. I've read about and EXPERIENCED DSL horror stories first-hand. Same with cable TV (but those are just a little scary, not horror). I LOVE my cable modem and haven't had a single problem with it.
Cable modem connections are shared by an entire neighborhood. It's fast now, probably because not many people have it. But when everyone in your neighborhood gets a cable modem, your connection will slow down a lot, especially during peak hours.
But when everyone in your neighborhood gets a cable modem, your connection will slow down a lot, especially during peak hours.
Another urban legend. There is far more capacity in the lines than will ever be used in a non-commercial environment, even if half the people are sharing music and video. I don't know the exact figures, but even with 500 people on maximum download you won't use all the capacity in a standard neighborhood router, and most cable companies assign less than 150 modems to a loop. There will be very slight slowdowns, just as there are slowdowns in a conventional dialup or DSL network, but they will be small enough to be imperceptible to the end user and will be far less noticeable than such delays as you experience trying to load the next message at the same time as someone else is posting (Dave's database is single-threaded).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
trying to load the next message at the same time as someone else is posting (Dave's database is single-threaded).
OUCH! Is this because it's the free version of SQL, or is this to stop people overwriting each other's messages? Surely it would not be very complicated to implement multi-threaded read-only access?
AEM7
I queried Dave about this recently (specifically about the occasional lengthy delays when reading) and here's his reply:
...it would be both contention for the table plus size of the table.
Plus, MySQL 3.x can't lock a table for writing and also allow simultaneous reading. Which means if someone is posting to Subtalk, everyone else who is trying to read gets temporarily locked out. I bet that's the source of the occasional 10 second or so delay.
MySQL 4 claims to fix this but is still in beta.
Hope that answers your question.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What about a dodgy hack -- keep two tables, read from the out-of-date one while the other is being updated, and then toggle them when the reading is idle.
Or is it too much programming effort for too little a performance gain? If this were me, I would do it just for the fun of being able to do it. Same logic drove me to implement a long-filenames support for Turbo Pascal 6.0
AEM7
>>> If this were me, I would do it just for the fun of being able to do it. <<<
Then start your own message board, and stop complaining about this one.
Tom
MOO
I never complained about the message board
I suspect it's too much effort for too little gain.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, nevermind then :-)
For starters you can get faster dialup than AOL for far less than $20 a mounth
Due to all advertising downloads in the background your connection through AOL is slower than through another provider such as ATT worldnet.
A new version of AOL having fewer problems than the previous version. Are you aware that when you install AOL 7, it makes itself the default media player, no matter what else you have installed? That it adds the AOL home page to the IE trusted sites zone? That it adds four shortcuts to itself in four different locations, and will occasionally replace its own shortcut if it's been deleted?
-Hank
I knew all about that, Although you can change the media player, like I have so my AOL media player on my PC is not my Default player.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Are you aware that when you install AOL 7, it makes itself the default media player, no matter what else you have installed?
This is not true. I have AOL 7.0 and it didn't change any of my media file assignments when I installed it. Probably because I was running legacy systems -- Windows 95.
That it adds the AOL home page to the IE trusted sites zone?
I just checked my trusted sites zone, the list is empty. Again this is probably because I run legacy systems: Internet Explorer version 3.
That it adds four shortcuts to itself in four different locations, and will occasionally replace its own shortcut if it's been deleted?
Again, this is not true. I deleted my AOL icon on the Start Menu and on the Desktop and it has never been replaced.
AEM7
If you are still running Win95 and IE3 then you just don't count. No one is still running Win95 and IE3 but you. Seriously. I think it's time to upgrade. I don't know what type of hardware you have now, but a Pentium I 133mhz with 16MB of RAM will run Win98 and IE6. And so will everything faster.
Hardware: K6-PR300 with 256MB RAM.
I like my hardware/software combination. Operating System overhead is very very very very low, and all my CPU power goes to decoding that MP3 as opposed to "managing threads". I achieve much higher hardware cost-effectiveness than most.
AEM7
Colleges and University's often sell surplus computer equipment if you go and pick it up. You are in Boston, right? I hear there are a lot of schools in Boston. I have been able to get Pentium 2's in the 300mhz range for $30. Dells. If you got one of those, put in your 256MB of ram, and got a copy of Win98 from a friend, I think you'd have a lot more computing power at your fingertips for less than $50. A K6-PR300 must use a good % of its CPU power to decode MP3's. How much does it use?
Colleges and University's often sell surplus computer equipment if you go and pick it up.
Right. Here in my room, I have a Dual Pentium Pro 200MHz, and a few PowerMac 7200/200. I also had a Pentium II 350MHz motherboard and chip combination which I had sold earlier for about $30.
The hours of computing disruption I would need to endure to swap out my existing system makes it not worth while. I would happily swap out my motherboard on a board-out-board-in basis, but I have yet to find one which is worth the trouble (e.g. Athlon based or K6-2-500 onwards) and which also fits my form factor (AT babyboard, AT keyboard connector).
A K6-2-500 is less reliable in service than a K6-PR300. When I was in college, I had a K5-PR166 and my friends all had the then latest K6-2's or PII's. They had more downtown than I did, one of them even had an error that causes data on the disc to be corrupted (suspected cause: overheated processor).
I'd rather run slow and reliable.
A K6-PR300 must use a good % of its CPU power to decode MP3's. How much does it use?
About 50%.
AEM7
50%? Ouch. I collect computers in order to run SETI@Home. Right now, in my "dorm room," I have my Athlon T-Brid 1400MHz overclocked to 1550MHz (I built that in January for about $600 incl a 17" monitor and I use this as my "everyday" computer), a P2 266 laptop, a P2 333 Dell Optiplex, and a P1 233 Gateway. I hope to be getting three more computers this Friday. Society waaay undervalues old computers. They are good for a lot more than most people realize. I'm not compaining though! BTW, you may already know this, but there have been a lot of good deals at DELL lately where you can get a Dimension 4500 desktop with a P4 2GHz or higher for around $400 after coupons and rebates but plus tax.
Ahem! Win95 *original* release (no IE at all, no dialer) and IE3 installed along with Netscape. Trumpet Winsock instead of Billysock for dial-in. Don't need a firewall, and what I run on my personal machine is impervious to attack. Sometimes being low tech has its advantages out on the "scary internet" ... heh.
Sure we have all the shiniest, newest this and that on our lab rats here for testing and evaluation, but there's something nice and safe about using an email program that doesn't know WHAT to do with embedded nasties and just cannot execute Klez. :)
Ahem! Win95 *original* release (no IE at all, no dialer)
I had the original version of Win95. Still have it, just can't install it anywhere since it's an upgrade and I don't have any Windows 3.1 diskettes (my computer came with 3.1 built in).
Now I do remember one thing: Windows 95 had Dial-up Networking. I used it to dial-up to Earthlink. It minimized to the main taskbar instead of the tray. You had to manually initialize the dialing, it didn't do it automatically when you opened the browser. I used Netscape, which was better than IE back then. I couldn't stand IE until IE4 came out. If I had to run an old browser, I'd run Netscape 4.
The "dialup networking" that came with the original Win95 wasn't the same as today - that was the MSN dialer. Had no use for MSN then or now. What I liked about the old Win95 is that I could take my old Win 3.1 Trumpet Winsock, whip it in and it still works as happily today as it did then. You can TRACE all activity on the wire RIGHT on the screen, the only ports and protocols supported are the ones that you wrote INTO the HOSTS, PROTOCOLS and SERVICES files. If you didn't put it into the files, then those ports and protocols DID NOT EXIST.
Wonderful it is not having a machine slowed down by pesky BS software firewalls and constant "alerts" about ordinary background noise. Kids powerpinging at me get a reset instantly and don't know WHAT to make of what they bounced off. But I have faster throughput on this old war tank than any of our newer toy lab rats. :)
I never used MSN with Dial-up Networking but the original dial-up Networking was the same as the Dial-up Networking used in Windows 2000 (and I guess XP, but I wouldn't know) with only slight modifications like minimizing to the tray and auto-dialing when a program tries to access the internet.
Actually, what's under the hood is quite different in the newer versions. I don't like winshims that allow ANY port to be opened without warning or the ability to close it, mysterious "black box" protocols (I refer to them as "spook protocols") ... the original "dialup networking" was designed to run with NT's NetBIOS with basic TCP/IP support and was pretty much dumb as a box of rocks.
Microsoft's "Winsock II" was the reason everybody needs firewalls and filtering up the yingyang. For me, using my antique, I just go. No prophylactics required. :)
My experience has been that the older version of AOL have fewer. I still use AOL 5 when my DSL is down and to check that inbox every so often. I got a laptop within the past week that has AOL 7 but I doubt I will ever upgrade.
I still use AOL 5 when my DSL is down
Just another one of the wonders of a broadband internet connection that Doesn't Stay Linked.
Get optimized with optimum online
Never have a connection problem
And no Amtrak train within 500 miles!
Seven Cars of a 35 car train of the Dakota Missouri Valley & Western Railroad transporting fly ash derailed in Bismarck. Heat is blamed.
The Bismarck Tribune story.
BTW: The train was running at 5 mph!
Elias
http://members.aol.com/jsyee53/myhomepage/f>ogether2.jpg
Again, if someone can actually type out what html tags I should be writing, that would help...I couldn't figure out the view source thing..
The next pic will be of Sea Beach..Fred is going to yell at me again...
Here's one... a combination of both your posts. R68A on the G Line...
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3tyxq/picture49.jpg
Now linked!
HOW IN DA WORLD DID U GET THAT!
What the Hell??? When was this???? And Are more coming????
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
AM'I really dreaming or seeing the real thing here. And Since when did TA assign R68A to the G line?
There was a time, I forgot when. It was mentioned here on the board once about a month ago.
HMMM! :)
They temporarily ran R68's about 1 1/2 years ago when they had the V line test. Only ran on the G for 3 hours.
Then again, maybe someone got a hold of a sign changer and had a little fun.
A screwdriver will do, but one's hand cramps up after a while.
...not that I would know anything about that.
It actually is quite simple
I usually just copy and paste the links I want from Here, a FAQ from a discussion board about the US Navy, Battleships, and Naval Warfare. The site details the what you type to put into both Hyperlinks and Image postings on Message Boards that allow HTML.
Here are some links to your pics:
The index of your page the only page I could really get to work, odd, but no biggie.
To post images is simplicity in it'self, just type < img src = [photo's adress, copy paste] >
So that your F at culver HTML would look like this:
< img src = http://members.aol.com/jsyee53/myhomepage/culversunset.jpg >
Just remove the spaces at each end to make it look like this:
BTW: that is one hell of a picture, amazing
Here are a few more of your photos, posted the same way:
Hope you much luck with HTML, it's not hard if you just copy paste rather than typing a bunch of repeating characters.
http://members.aol.com/jsyee53/myhomepage/r68a_n.jpg
This is at my home station Bay Parkway...
Sneak preview of the next post: more of "Sunset over Culver"...."Snow over Sea Beach"
Why did the R 27-30's live a relatively short life in comparison to other trains?
When will the TA start scrapping the R 40's, 42's, and 32's? I'm a T/O in the A division, and I won't be able to transfer over to the B until next September at the earliest. Is there a chance I'll miss out on the opportunity to operate some of these models before I transfer over?
The R27-R30's could have lasted a lot longer than they did. They were scrappped because they were not air conditioned. Other cars that were not air conditioned had A/C added, but addign A/C to the R27-30's would have made the cars too heavy for the els, so they were scrapped instead because the MTA wanted to make the subway trains airconditioned completely (minus a few single unit IRT cars).
The question then comes up about why they didn't use the R27-30's with A/C added on the "all underground" routes. Well we have a few now - The E, the C, the R. But back then the C ran between Rockaway Park and Bedford Park Boulevard, and the R ran between Astoria and 95th stree, so that would only leave the E. The problem then comes up with ememergency reroutes, or GO's. It was easier just to scrap them, whether it was the right decision or not.
at the time all 3 routes were all underground, The smith st El could probably hold them too.
so they could run on the E,C,R,G... so they would likely have been assigned to 207th or jamaica yard
Nah Luch. You're safe. The TA isn't going to start scrapping B div equipment until the R160's start coming out. That wont be for a couple years yet.
To all of those who took the TW/O Exam 1519 in Nov. 2001. The results have just came out. I didn't do so well but I'm high on the list.
Good luck to all those who have taken the Exam!!
Hey dave, if they eventually call you for towers, then take it! You can still go to motors from towers.
Even if you really don't want it, take it anyway. After all, you can always go back to C/R but you'll keep the knowledge of the towers job with you, which could come in handy one day.
Why did it take almost a year for the results?
Contested answers.
I took the Deputy exam a week from when I took the T/O exam I got my list from one in 6 weeks and the others in 9 months.
I think the TA writes these exams instead of buying the standardized one like for Deputy so of course management has no idea of the rules.
Just how much and how far does 'contested answers' go? I've noticed some of the materiel goes back twenty or even thirty years...CI exam had on it electrical condiut stuff never to be seen on the job. Unca Steve will tell you I'm still 'ringing' about my position on the CI list. Yes, almost one year for a lot of the lists to come out now...sometimes I wonder just who reviews 'contests.' Good luck on the Deputy position. CI Peter
Thanks but not Deputy Supt. Like the 'I shot the Sherif but not the Deputy', Deputy. Stinky job, bad pay.
Thought something was fishy...I did ask once upon a time how to become a Dept Supt...they, like MS2s, are 'hand picked.' Never could qualify for law enforcement...vision too bad. OIder now...hold up my Colt 1911 at arms legnth upon a ten yard target and 'punch the black.'
I can easily see my sights and the bullseye...cops spray bullets from Glocks at ten feet missing 'nasty guy.' Stick with Transit...safer work at better pay. Hopefully, things will improve along with our pensions. CI Peter
WORSE ... *ALL* Civil Service tests are "approved" by a board of civil service test making droids who write up exams for ALL titles in all agencies. While they'll ask the agency for whom the test is given for some advice and technical specifications, in the end the same group of droids who write the test for file clerks write the test for tower operator. It's the way Civil Service works.
Some of the tests I've taken over the years have been genuine humdingers and bore zero resemblance to what the eventual job entailed. But usually they'll throw in a few questions that the agency was looking for, but not many. Then there's the "battery test" for supervision where how well you can manage is based upon how good you are at handling an errant bat flying around a neighbor's apartment. Heh. Never got over THAT one. :)
Actually a school car Supt. wrote the OTS T/O exam and I think he wrote some of the others.
Interesting. I've seen Civil Service beg off on SOME exams over the years and let the agency provide the questions, but in the end they always put several thumbprints in it somewhere after the waiver. Those guys worry about tests getting too "specific" ... I've been involved with them in creating exams for some technical positions and it was like pulling TEETH. :)
Mine was a reading comp test based on the rulebook.
Oh yeah ... things that are already in writing as "official documents" float their boat. Now I'd be impressed if Civil Service did the signal test ... with flashcards. Not gonna happen. :)
Reading comprehension??? Unca Steve will tell you how much that 'chip on my shoulder' weighs. Some of my guys had to be retested for the position of Car Inspector....Unca Steve had one of my guys face to face for CI retest...and it breaks my heart because I work with the man almost everyday and I know firsthand he is experienced and qualified for the work. The new exam had 'English comprehension and understanding.' Signal maintainers used to have ot undergoe the 'telephone test.' The PA system blairs out messages that I cannot understand..I often miss a call but remain upon the track assigned to be found.
Reading comprehension: 'John and Sue have a dog named Spot. Spot likes to take a dump on the tracks and urinate on the third rail. If Spot urinates upon the third rail, what is his new name?'
"If Spot urinates upon the third rail, what is his new name?"
STAIN ... :)
>>Reading comprehension: 'John and Sue have a dog named Spot. Spot likes to take a dump on the tracks and urinate on the third rail. If Spot urinates upon the third rail, what is his new name?'
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sparky...
Wrong, people in the title are asked to write questions as well as older tests questions are reused or changed slightly (T/F reworded from ture to false and such).
I know the title of Supervisor of Mechanics (used to be Foreman of Mechanics) wasn't given in over 10 years ans SOM's in the title helped write the questions.
Probably the result of changes since 1995, the year I had enough and hit the silk. My info is probably out of date then, but prior to 1995 was indeed "how it was done." The changes since 1995 though could well have gone more to the individual agencies since that would allow removing some of those civil service test creation positions ...
http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/civil.html
The civl service exam process is a slow giant mess. Once you take the test, you wait for the answer key to be released. Then you have the 30 day protest period that leads to however long it takes to throw questions out or accept more than on answer to a question or change the weight of the question. Then you have the appeal process all the way including the Committee of Manifest Errors and such things.
Then your list number comes out and you protest that, then after that is done DCAS can certify the list which means they allow agencies to call from it.
Since 90% of trainsit titles are for one agency you would think it would go quicker??
Just hope your cival service title test is an E/E (Educatiion and Experience) and not a combo of that and a real test. But even an E/E test can take over a year for the list to be certified.
And remember the list is only good for one year and needs to be extended each and every year for up to 4 of them. Seems they won't recertify the T/O off the street list since the TA is talking about another test and that list still had a year or two to go.
The last class of O/C T/O's is scheduled to start in May.
I am on the list too....Let's see how long before they call....
Good Luck; and don't get the switch lever stuck in the middle with no indication.
A contributor to Trainorders.com posted a link to a Steve Barry photo of New York harbor with a clear shot of the twin towers in the background. A follow-up posted a link from the same slide show of Steve's famous shot of the HBLR taken the weekend before 9-11.
Self observed several trainsets (marked for New Lots)
terminating at Chambers St. and running light through
the Rector/South Ferry passageway...
I actually felt delighted to see the train charge
up and enter the Chambers St. sb tunnel
(first time in a looooooooong time I see that!!)
Can't wait till next weekend's re-opening!
Rather than mess up 1 and 2 service to run the tests, why not have the 1 and 2 run as usual and have 3 trains run light from 14th to 14th via South Ferry? (Yes, that would require an additional train or two and would require the 1/2 and 3 to cross paths at Chambers.)
Why can't they put the 2 and 3 back to Brooklyn service and have the 1 just run to Chambers, then light around the loop?
Besides confusing everybody, I mean.
Not confusing everybody is a pretty darn good reason all by itself, I think.
There seems to be a prevalent assumption in these parts that nobody uses local stations. I'm afraid that's not the case. Suddenly change the service pattern with no warning and a lot of people will be late to work -- specifically, everybody who relies on direct local service from Lenox and Brooklyn and everybody who relies on more than just the 1 running local between 96th and Chambers. In particular, think of commuters on the 2 from Brooklyn bound for local stations between Chambers and 14th. Trains from Brooklyn stop on the express track at Chambers whether they're going local or express, and seasoned 2 passengers know to ignore the R-142 announcements since they always claim the train's an express, even when it's actually a local. Anyone who doesn't guess the unannounced service change will have to cross over at 14th and backtrack.
Until September 15, all 1's and 2's are supposed to be locals to Brooklyn and all 3's are supposed to be expresses to 14th. Let's keep it that way until September 15.
Does anyone have a list of frequencies for RRs in the Albany area? I was so desparate for train action today I went down to the station just to pick up schedules!
see www.trainweb.org/csxtimetables/
your up here too?welcome to the club!!!!
Yerp. SUNY Albany. And I've taken to bus watching from my 12th floor dorm room, so I might start posting over there on bustalk. Though my insight will be limited to CDTA.
I tried scanning all the AAR channels last night for 2 hours, nothing. So even if I had the frequencies I'd probably have to go out to use them.
you guys are real bored
Albany is the center of activity on Conrail -- well Selkirk is anyway. If you scan all the channels, its not surprising that you got nothing because you would only be watching each channel for a very short time.
Find out what the channel is on http://www.trainweb.org/csxtimetables/ look under Albany Division and Selkirk Subdivision or Berkshire Subdivision and get the frequencies.
Go out and do some real railfanning, it's not that far away. Over here, we're miles from any real activity.
AEM7
Sorry for the wait, twirly schedule on this end ... here's what you want:
http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/text/se_ra_in.htm
I posted a scan of the aforementioned map at http://members.tripod.com/boarshevik/1940surface
It might take a while to download (for dial-up users), but the detail is worth it.
NOTE: The URL is temporary until I get webspace for boarshevik.com fully up.
P.S. The trolley part is on-topic for Subtalk.
I looked at it and after it was fully loaded, I kept it in my favorites. There might be a debate if it should be in subtalk or bustalk. But I think of it as a rare piece of NY Transit History. If there are maps like these for Brooklyn and Queens, I'd like to see them.
Thanks AP!
Wow, Tripod lock you out fast. What, do they monitor your bandwidth hour by hour?
If so, how many more car sets will run on the F train.
Any information is greatly appreciated.
The F will get whatever is assigned to it. If anything, the current level of service on a shorter route could very easily require LESS equipment.
BUSFAN strikes again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But this time he asks a legitimate question. More R32's are due on the F as some R46's will be needed to restore 6 car service on the G line.
Officially, the assignment hasn't changed. It features 5 10-car trains of R-32s and 40 8-car trains of R-46s on the F, and 10 4-car trains of R-46s on the G. However, I was told by the guy drawing up the assignments (while they were being drawn up) that orders were handed down to operate 6-car trains of R-46s on the G. I guess we'll have to wait until the Monday AM rush and see what we see.
David
I'm sure it will definitely see an increase in R32s though I don't know by how much, as the F's R46s go to the G.
I rode one today, the last 6th Avenue train I will ride out of Coney Island for the next 18 months.
You know, what annoys me is that every time I am in Coney Island, or at West 8th Street, I always see those old R46's running there, but no R32's, and I even waited with the combined 2 stations a total of an hour just waiting to get shots of the R32's on the F. Where were they on Friday?
Don't know about Friday, but the R32 I rode on the F today was the only one I saw. Everything else was R46s.
Old R46's? They're 12 years younger than the R32!
Yeah but the R32's are in better shape for their age. I'll take a "bright" brightliner over a gloomy dim R46 anyday.
Speak for yourself. Most people who aren't railfans like the R46 more, including myself.
yea hes right! I love my R46 too, but R32 have better brakes! them brightliners have benefits! i even prefer a R32 A over any other A train! I had 3811 on the A friday and u shoulda seen the grin on my face as we flew into 42nd and 8th
Ah, yes, the downhill runaway s/b from 50th to 42nd. With the R-10s, it was almost terrifying. And they stopped on a dime every time. So did the R-1/9s.
The R-46s are OK, but IMHO the R-32s are better.
I was just saying old R46's in sarcasm. I know that they are 12 years younger. I went by Jamaica Yards along the Van Wyck Expressway to get to Atlantic Ave., and I saw numerous R46's laid up signed as V. Also, I saw lots of R32's, but I don't know what they were signed up as.
I don't know. Today, Spetember 9th, I rode on the (F) and it was an R46, and every other (F) I could identify was also an R46. If there is a change in assignment, it's not a big one.
Furhtermore, the train I rode in still has the map from November of last year!
:-) Andrew
No one can forget the man who educated us about subways, trolley cars and local history for decades. His fascinating lectures, his many well illustrated published articles and his acting as our tour guide on trip after trip embellished our existing knowledge and opened up new vistas for three generations of railfans. He was an avid collector of every kind of thing subway, train and traction. He took now priceless movies of "ordinary things" based on the correct belief that we would love the details of virtually every frame decades later. He was a good companion, a man who could not help but share his iknowledge and teach, and whose movie nights were always packed. It was my honor and pleasure to have been a good friend of his for decades, and to have succeeded him into the office of the Presidency at he Bronx County Historical Society. When I want to hear his voice new and fresh once again, I play one of his videos and the joy of his presence comes back.
This morning at church his name will be read with the prayer intentions of this day as we thank God for the gift of Roger Arcara, now in the Lord's good hands for seven years today. May his soul rest in peace, and may there be plenty of "traction action" in heaven!
How old was Roger when he passed on? It was a terrible shock--he was a real gentleman--and seemed really young.
Probably in his mid to late 50s. He did have heart trouble.
I had a good relationship with Roger for the few years that I knew him. He was supportive and complimentive of my subway calendar in the early years.
I miss him because there are few oldtimers left who can spin tales and furnish historic imformation like him. His fascination with the New York Westchester and Boston Rwy. made him the source for any imformation needed, considering he was born after the line quit !
Rest in peace Roger.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thank you for remembering Roger Arcara with this post. I was at an ERA meeting six years ago, and his usual space at around the center stage was empty. He had been at the last meeting. Where was Roger? I asked. It was a real shock to find out so suddenly and very, very sad.
Several months before, I had bought two of his videos from him, and it is now enjoyable to hear his narration - it brings back memories of his movie programs at the New York Division meetings.
I first remember him from back when the Division meetings were held in the District 65 center. I'd moved away in the early '70s, and did not make it back to a NY Division meeting for many years. I finally came to a Division meeting again, sometime in '92, and went up to him and introduced myself - he remembered after all that time (incredibly) who I was. After saying hello, the first thing I made sure I did that evening was to buy his NYW & B book from him. Those last couple of years, when I asked, he would always tell me about shows that he was going to do, and the slides that he would assemble for them.
His enjoyment and enthusiasm for traction and railroading was shared with those around him. He is missed and warmly remembered.
Now I've heard from several T/O's who I know, said they dont like riding the D line because of the unexpected breaking of the R-68/A, that because of its unpredictibility drivers sometimes have to lurch over the controls, that alot of T/O's liked the R-68 before the yards tinkered with the Breaking system. So what was done to the breaking system? Different Breaking Valves? Different P.S.I?
You do mean "braking" right?
You don't really want to break an R68, because then CI Peter would have to repair it.
Hey...I like IRTs because they're shorter!!!! Many, many years ago, I was the 'mechanic' who did service calls by motorcycle. There are people still alive today who remember my motorcylcle hunkered down with tool kits and repaired jukebox control units. Do you thing unca Steve would mind me using a 'long board' folding scooter on the shop floor? CI Peter fixes brakes, control systems, motors, doors, windows, changes oil and lightbulbs, shoe beams, decals, door closures and locks, radios and intercoms........ My mother says I prayed for this job and new work and did I ever get my prayers answered! God Bless to all.
I have never placed a hand upon an R62/68 other than walking through during CI school at Coney Island yard. Redbird propulsion control uses the 'group box' which is a giant cam/switch assembly that takes 35 steps going from coast to third position (four notches on the master controller excusing a fifth notch no longer used.) R62/68 cars use the GE 'E-cam' which is completely electronic sans the motor control contactors (easy fixin.) Chances are that the 'tread brake units,' the brake mechanisms which move the brake shoe against the wheel, may have had some upgrade for better stopping but made them 'jerkier' but increased pressure in the brake cylinder does not mean unpredictability. TBU brakes are more like automotive disc brakes...they place the shoe directly against the flat of the wheel like auto brake pads squeeeze the brake rotor. Propulsion and braking control do work hand-in-hand but slow speeds place the braking totally in pneumatic control by the T/O....hence, 'My brakes are unpredictable' because of an improvement.
Just spent half an hour yesterday with a R142 yard crew explaining changes in the propulsion/braking system. R142s have three different TBU packages...TBU A, TBU A+ and TBU A++...along with what would be improved software. The R142s coming on line for #5 now as described by my friend at Widecab5@aol.com have been called 'storage cars' and 'cobweb cars.' These trainsets had big problems and were used by Bombardier for parts. Now 'updated,' they're expected to be up and running but some have unexpected problems with TBUs...every brake improvement did also have higher cylinder pressures and some cars wound up with mixed TBUs making life miserable not only for T/Os but inspectors who could not fathom excessive brake shoe wear after everything was supposed to be 'all fixed.' All in a days work...I still love my new job. CI peter
Whoa Peter! E-CAM is a Westinghouse product. It still uses
a camshaft to drive the contactors, but the pneumatic pilot motor
and electromechanicl control logic was replaced with an electric
motor and microprocessor control. GE's similar product is SCM.
E-Cam or SCM....still easy fixins. The controller is like a vending machine controller....dedicated bunch of boards (is there a CPU???...Space invaders used a Z-80) and a camshaft to operate just a handfull of 600 VDC contactors. All systems pre R110 have the same concept...10 MPH or < 100 amps DC engages pnuematic braking. E-cam or SCM have the trouble code display. Like I said, never placed a hand on one but knowledge of the mech is a plus. If engaged, I could do some repairs like I used to do on pinball solenoid driver boards but the info and tools are not handy at 239/180. Train Dudes yard may be more up to date but Transit likes 'When in doubt, change it out.' Every T/O should have 'flipper buttons.' Score big points. Ding ding ding....bonus ball! I liked Williams 'Addams Family Deluxe.' Big money beyond original retail price...miss that old work but appreciate the new work and what I can do.
Jeff: I understand a lot more than you may realise. IF your work stinks and the money is bad, you should be in TA. I'm working on something brought up by a screwey CI BUT Train Dude knows me and TA really needs every body with a brain (flashlight continues to pass light from one ear out to the other side...my head remains empty.) CI peter
I understand a lot more than you may realise. IF your work stinks and the money is bad, you should be in TA. I'm working on something brought up by a screwey CI BUT Train Dude knows me and TA really needs every body with a brain (flashlight continues to pass light from one ear out to the other side...my head remains empty.) CI peter
Gah. Is it possible to get into the T/A as a 'temp' job? Like a year or so? This economy is gone to sh*t, my Mech Engineering Tech degree is drying up, and nobody's hiring, save for burger flipper. Heh. I did a stint as a telemarketer earlier this summer. There's a fun job *rolls eyes*....
Wait a minute. You're a mechanical engineer. You're qualified to:
-invent a new burger flipper or improve the current models
-design suspension systems for cars and trains.
-design landing gear parts for airliners
and about a zillion other things.
And I imagine the TA would find you quite valuable.
Is the market for your services that bad?
Wait a minute. You're a mechanical engineer. You're qualified to:
Actually, the degree's Mechanical Engineering Technology. And legally, I', not an 'engineer', because I don't hold a PE, but no 'engineering' grad does.
-invent a new burger flipper or improve the current models
Sure.
-design suspension systems for cars and trains.
Yeah. Vibrational stuff. Gets tricky with a few bouncy masses between the wheel and carbody. To be really anal, you'd have to remember the truck itself is flexing (yes), and stuff like that. On paper, though, you've got a light mass on a spring/damper, with a heavier mass ontop of it, coupled by a spring/damper to the light one.
-design landing gear parts for airliners
Yeah, but the manufacturing guys can worry about making them. Magnesium castings are common in landing gears, and boy are those fun to machine!
and about a zillion other things.
Well, yeah.
And I imagine the TA would find you quite valuable.
I would hope so.
Is the market for your services that bad?
For a fresh grad, yeah. I've sent out a few hundred resumes and gotten three interviews over the year. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, though?
Did you have a specific interest in school and/or do a special project on or off campus that illustrates your skills?
I remember many years back a classmate of mine at UCLA who went to an interview with Lockheed having designed a new way to make paper airplanes - (he also had excellent grades in classes) - the point he made to the interviewer was that he had created a way to quickly and simply create and test different aerodynamic shapes. He beat out several other applicants for the job.
Did you have a specific interest in school and/or do a special project on or off campus that illustrates your skills?
Hmm, specific interest in school? Graduating :)
Out of school, I've got a fairly decent antique TV collection, a jukebox, my Harley. Of those, I've resurrected a few TVs from the 50's, the jukebox has been dissasembled and cleaned and gotten working, and my Harley has been, err, hot rodded :)
I graduated 15 months ago and now I'm working as a cashier at Barnes & Noble on the Upper West Side, been there since February. Now there's another "fun" job!
Which B&N? I occasionally wander into the one on 83rd and Broadway -- I wonder if I've ever handed you my credit card.
Nope - I don't work at that one. I work at the B & N on 66th and Broadway. It's always very busy there.
It is. I've only been there once or twice, but I don't like the escalator arrangement (apparently designed to make it difficult to leave the store). Besides, I live closer to the one on 83rd.
It may very well be. People tend to stay in there until the very last minute. Around 11:55 PM, just before we close, there's a mad dash of people who come down to pay for their books. The one on 83rd is nicer, I think.
I also think the one on 83rd is nicer. Its one flaw is insufficient seating -- even the windowsills fill up. But IIRC 66th is no better in that regard, possibly worse.
Bringing this back to transit:
IIRC, you live somewhere in the Bronx on the 2, and you complained last September when the 2 started running local in Manhattan. Since you work at 66th, aren't you better off with direct local service? Or were you not yet working at B&N when you made those complaints? Just curious.
I wasn't working at B & N at the time. If the 2 gets sent express, I take it to 72nd Street. If the 2 passes a 1 train, I'll wait at 72nd especially if the weather is bad. But if it's nice outside or the 1 is nowhere in sight, I'll get off at 72nd and walk. It's a short enough walk and nice too. With the 2 going back to express next week, I'll probably be getting off at 72nd a lot more often. It's a nice enough walk down Broadway.
I'm surprised you remembered that. Yes, I did complain about the 2 being made local and I'm not sorry that I did. It is a long run through the Bronx and Harlem with a lot of stops, sharp curves and timers. If you want to bypass some of the stops in rush hour, you need to take the 5, but if you're headed to the West Side, taking a 2, switching to the 5, then getting back on the 2 wastes time instead of saving it. Then for the 2 to go local through all of its Manhattan section - well, who wouldn't complain? But none of us knew at the time that the TA would be restoring 1 and 9 service to South Ferry this Sunday. Originally, the TA said it would be several years before normal 1, 2, 3 and 9 service would be restored.
I applaud the TA and its contractors for getting the 1 line tunnel repaired and ready for service at this point, and also Cortlandt Street on the N, R and W lines. Great job!
Write to them and say so:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt and Community Affairs
347 Madison Av
New York NY 10017
Thanks for the address, Ron. I think I will do that.
Gah. Is it possible to get into the T/A as a 'temp' job? Like a year or so? This economy is gone to sh*t, my Mech Engineering Tech degree is drying up, and nobody's hiring, save for burger flipper. Heh. I did a stint as a telemarketer earlier this summer. There's a fun job *rolls eyes*....
My department at work has been trying for several weeks to hire an editor to replace one who transferred elsewhere. The position calls for either (a) 3 to 5 years in the legal publishing field or (b) an accounting or law degree with some taxation experience. It has attracted far fewer applicants than anyone expected, in fact there have been only two in the last couple of weeks. Hardly what anyone would have expected given all the talk about the state of the economy.
Experience is my biggest obstacle. When you just get out of school, you don't have much professional work experience. That's not something you can make up.
The whole TA system needs revamping as far as anything technical is concerned. There are no part time jobs....Harry Beck was lucky to have gotten into an internship program. You should be on the MTA and DCAS pages everyday looking at and applying for every opportunity . TA wants bodies...maybe some are there just to fulfill budget requirements...but they are going to need every person with a brain and a will to work really soon. Phillip: everyday you ring the B&N cash register is a day 'out of experience.' So maybe the salary for engineer is less than CTA (cleaner) but the time on paper is worth so much more. The older you get the harder it will be to find work. So keep your teeth clean, never speak English with a lisp and use a bottle brush to clean your ears out so the flashlight shines through an empty head. Serious stuff. CI Peter
"Gah. Is it possible to get into the T/A as a 'temp' job? Like a year or so? This economy is gone to sh*t, my Mech Engineering Tech degree is drying up, and nobody's hiring, save for burger flipper. Heh. I did a stint as a telemarketer earlier this summer. There's a fun job *rolls eyes*.... "
Perhaps you are trivializing a good career opportunity. Back in 1981 I gave up the idea of a career in secondary school education and/or spending my life in the family business. My wife (a very wise woman) said not to settle for something that wouldn't be rewarding and fun. Getting paid for what is, in reality a hobby is the best of both worlds.
For what it's worth, I have a PHD working for me (a former college professor and inventor from Khazikstan ). He's now a car inspector doing inspections. He's happy. He also is constantly coming to me with with ideas for doing the job better. We're now exploring three employee suggestions for which he can get paid.
The sad part is that even with your 2 year degree, you'd likely not have the skills required to take the Car Inspector test these days. Currently, the focus is on electronics and electrical work. 4 years journeyman experience is the minimum skill required. However, that's only for CI/RCI or CME. There's always track worker, Vent & drain maintainer, elevator/escalator maintainers or even train operator. Good luck in your career search
>>(four notches on the master controller excusing a fifth notch no longer used.)<<
Why isn't the fifth notch used any more ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Noise from the jump into warp scared the geese. :)
Like I said...know zip about R62/68 other than tech. Redbirds had an extra notch in the master controller that was rewired (removal of a motor shunt) to cut speed down...you jump a notch in static tests. When I was a kid, Redbirds really cranked as the stations were a blur. Didn't care about direction or walking distances....train got me downtown fast...ran from Barry Electronics at Spring and B'way through Canal Street to Cortlandt ending at Harrison Radio on Barklay Street
There is no 5th notch. Off, switch, series, parallel. That's
it, that's all there ever was (not counting R44/46 and
experimentals). On some GE controllers there was a false detent
between Off and Switching but it is not a notch. Some
old-timers claimed that notch was there as a coasting position
with no spotting (dynamic drag) set up, however if that was
the case it was certainly not designed that way. Spotting is
necessary to ensure prompt build-up of the dynamic brakes when
they are actually called for!
Thankyou...first decent explanation of the GE MCC I've heard! There had been a mod long before me to slow em down but some people who do not operate the controller would wait and get mad while I struggled to go from first to second notch. I think the mod left in just a little series circuit resistance in parallel to keep the train on the tracks downtown.
Which GE controllers had this feature. I recall the GE R10s when I was a baby at TA, perhaps the 6688 may have this feature. On some GE R30s, it was possible to slightly move the master controller in between Off and Switch without feeding the ammeters, and disable the dynamic, but I figure it was a controller cam in need of adjustment more than anything else. Speaking of Master Controllers, I have my new positions memorized for the tests
Off Switch Slow medium Fast for the PAs
Off Switch Series Joint for Ks that aren't reefed.
Fast position was removed; it was a field shunt mod similiar to TA's slowing down their cars. We still hit 60 without it though and the FRA is happy.
Wowsers ... didn't know you'd gone across the river ... life happier there?
Off Switch Slow medium Fast
One wonders if there was another notch what they'd call it. Faster? Warp? Really fast?
Yes, it was on the GE R-30s that I most clearly remember
this "feature", and also to a lesser extent the R-32s (pre-GOH).
I agree that it was most probably poor adjustment rather than
any deliberate design.
Incidentally, the series notch has been renamed "half-fast".
One never knows how old a supervisor is or how young he started in TA.
Some are not liked well...words that cannot be posted...and I've watched them struggle with what I consider simple on New Tech. Got a Redbird group box problem? 'Look at this, look for that, get your DVM and check these wires, charge the car and soap these lines.' That is how you learn...'Pinball ElectromechTech 101.' TA wanted the high tech stuff....look what they got! Everything in Redbird is in your face and can be found and fixed.
1. Free wheeling
2. Switching
3. Half fast
4. Really fast
The complete process takes thirty five steps but one roller cam, a bad LVDC contact, loose wire or bad DBRT board makes for a 'bad hair day.' Just changing out parts that don't look right usually fixes the problem. Try that on a R142. CI Peter
First off, which car class are you referring to? The R-68 and R-68A have entirely different braking systems.
Second, how many train operators have you actually spoken to? I doubt that you've spoken to more than a fraction of the operators who operate on the D line.
Third, If what you say is true, why are there no reports of Poor Braking Trains on the D Line? There has not been a poor braking train reported in at least the last 6 months.
Finally, what 'tinkering' did the yard do? Before you trivialize the hard work of a lot of dedicated mechanics, you should, at the very least, have a few facts.
During the R-68 heavy SMS in 1999, the R-68 NYAB brake valves were replaced with WABCO brake valves. This eliminated the very problematic NYAB electric self lapper and replaced it with the electric self lapper made by WABCO. This, more than tripled the reliability of the R-68 brake system. This was, however, done at the overhaul shop. So again I ask you, "What tinkering has the maintenance shop done"?
BTW: Feel free to post the names of your sources.
Now I've heard from several T/O's who I know, said they dont like driving the D line because of the unexpected breaking of the R-68/A, that because of its unpredictibility drivers sometimes have to lurch over the controls, that alot of T/O's liked the R-68 before the yards tinkered with the Breaking system. So what was done to the breaking system? Different Breaking Valves? Different P.S.I?
NYC is clogged with autos and while it's true that many of them are cabs, I've often wondered, where the heck is everyone going? Who needs a car in NYC anyway?
I have never driven a car and have barely even attempted to learn to drive in high school. I don't want to pay for insurance, gasoline and all the other hassles, and don't want to deal with the maniacs out there.
I'd like to address this question to Subtalkers who live in Manhattan or a heavily urbanized part of Brooklyn, Bronx, etc.
Why do you drive? Why do you feel you need to?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I am 25 and never owned a car .Never had two I have had free pass since I was 19 .
40 years ago (1962) my mother wanted to buy a car for the convience of driving around. My father talked her out of it because for the expense of gas and insurance and tolls and parking fees and other expenses, at least with a baby the costs would be deductible and last longer. A year later, I had a baby brother! My mother finally got her car 7 years later. It lasted about 2 years. But I still have my brother!
Me me me mememememe! I need a car, I drive. Mememememe!
Twenty one years on the road for my last employer. New car every two or three years...parked it on the street with alternate side of the street parking rules...usually left in the morning BEFORE ASotS rules went into effect. Lifestyle revolved around the pattern.
September 11th...I'm coming home in th first car I ever owned...a mint 1995 Olds Achieva S...a test of fire in an unproven vehicle.
September 17th...start Car inspector school at PS248...I knew from the CI test that travel time on the subway is well over an hour...backdoor access to BQE from mcGuiness/Humbolt route takes me 34 minutes...had to suffer on the trip home for lack of access to Manhattan from Brooklyn...usually two hours.
Two weeks later...assigned to 239th yard. Travel time 27 minutes..reduced to 21 with course alteration. To get to work by 7AM on my subway requires leaving by 5:30 AM. Drive to work by necessity.
Also travel to New Jersey on weekends to Warren County...NO rapid/public transportation available. I could go back to motorcyle but during inclement weather, especialy in winter, is a problem. Next vehicle will be 4WD Jeep with BIG rack for medium weight motorcycle.
I know every block/signage/fire hydrant/DPL zone where I live. Leave work by 3PM...usually play the 'two hour parking meter game' around the corner till 7PM...three bucks a day. Every premium high-rise apartment building constructed with a garage removed one block of street parking. It is hard...my life is still wrecked but getting better day by day. I travel off-peak hours and if I worked a half hour ride from a yard, I'd take mass transit leaving my car secured in the yard for the week......but I don't. CI Peter
My family lived in the Bronx. We used a car to go on some shopping trips on weekends, and to go places outside of New York. If the car was used for 10 miles a week, that was a lot.
My family lived in the Bronx. We used a car to go on some shopping trips on weekends, and to go places outside of New York. If the car was used for 10 miles a week, that was a lot.
I've been keeping track of mileage on my trip odometer for the last few days as I'm trying to figure out my Rodeo's fuel economy. So far today, on a variety of errands, I've driven 85 miles, and still have a 5-mile roundtrip to the gym a little while from now. All of this driving has occurred without leaving Suffolk County, or Brookhaven Town in fact.
... demonstrates that you overuse your car.
Shopping at IKEA, Western Beef, Target and BJ's Wholesale is much easier when you don't have take a bus home.
There is also life outside of Manhattan.
Never owned a car in the City. In fact, I didn't even own a car when I first moved to the suburbs. Bought one with a loan from my credit union a few months later.
But to answer your question. I never owned a car when I lived in Brooklyn. My last Brooklyn home was Homecrest-Sheepshead Bay, E13th between S and T. Working nights without a car can be a pain in the butt. I was dependent on the F and D to get to and from my work in LIC. It used to take me an hour ten to get home at 2 in the morning for a trip that would have taken me less than a half-hour driving through local streets. It took me an hour-and-a-half when the %^&%@(!!! conductor on the D would fail to hold at 50, 42 or 34 for my F train.
During those times when I would lease a car for a week or a month at a time I could suddenly date without extensive advance planning. I could get home from work at a decent speed. I could go to a diner near Marine Park for an early morning meal!
Bottom line--it's great not to have to buy/insure/fuel/park etc. a car, but depending on transit when you work off hours and live in the outlying boroughs can also be a pain.
>>>>Bottom line--it's great not to have to buy/insure/fuel/park etc. a car, but depending on transit
when you work off hours and live in the outlying boroughs can also be a pain. <<<
I can identify, I worked nights from 82 to 88 and again in 92. I worked on the east side and took the Lex local to Union Square, where I picked up the Broadway/4th Ave local all the way to Bay Ridge Ave or 77th Street. I would leave between 3AM and 7AM depending on the overtime (since I'm an "executive" now at the world's biggest store, they don't pay overtime). and the trip would take abt 1.5 hours. Even then, though, it seemed like the most natural thing in the world and I never even considered getting a car. Of course, my income has never made it easy for me to consider driving (sniff)
www.forgotten-ny.com
It would be considered passing odd by most people (not just Americans, either) to think of life without a car as being a luxury. A middle class existence in the 1950s seemed to have a lot less disposable cash than today, and my family would have lived much worse if we had the expenses of a car, although certain auto costs, like insurance and gas, were relatively much cheaper than now.
Only like the doctors and lawyers who lived in our neighborhood had a car, although the not-very-prosperous two large families who lived across the street shared a car between them.
Neither we nor our landlord had a car, and the landlord used to rent out the two-car garage to people who did own cars. I think people today would be surprised to think that an apartment dweller with a car would walk five blocks to use his or her car rather than try parking it on the street nearby.
And in Sea Cliff, a car is a must!!! I should know!! LOL!!!
A few I-words come to mind: ideology, identity, ignorance.
Ideology: the particularly American brand of extreme selfish individualism leads many to conclude that they have "freedom" by owning a car. This view is blinkered, so it does not recognize any rational analysis of the many real drawbacks of auto ownership to the owner (or to the rest of the planet, for that matter).
Identity: there are many, many muscleheads who base their identities around the car they own. These people are not reachable by reason at all, on any issue.
Ignorance: many people are essentially mindless, and do not question what is handed them. They are born into a car culture, and just accept it, even without the ideology or identity issues listed above. I knew people in eastern Queens who, whenever they needed to shop, would just jump in the car and drive to Nassau -- despite the fact that we had the great urban shopping area of Jamaica just a short bus ride away. These people had been told by some neighbor that, in order to shop, you had to drive to Roosevelt Field or some other horrible suburban place, and, from that day forward, they never considered Jamaica. Never underestimate the ignorance/mindlessness factor!
I am 37 and have never owned a car (though I do have a licence). I got out of eastern Queens as soon as I could, and settled in a more civilized place -- Woodhaven. Here I have as little use for a car as anyone who lives in Manhattan. I have a subway line outside my door, and another one a few blocks away. Two 24-hour bus lines stop at my corner. There are stores of all kinds within walking distance, and groceries open all night.
I can get anywhere I need to go by bus, subway, commuter train, bike, or a combination of those. I have recently gone to Suffolk County, to Yonkers, and to Newark without any trouble. On the rare occasion that I need to go farther, I can rent a car (actually I can ask someone to rent one for me, since I do not have a credit card). The last time this happened was in 1986 when I went to Pennsylvania.
So, there is no "good" (meaning rational) reason why there are so many cars in New York City. From my point of view, the only truly legitimate use of motor vehicles is for the large-scale shipping of goods. In an ideal world, personal autos would not exist -- all personal travel would be by public mass transit, and every community everywhere would be accessible by train. But, that is not this world.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I agree with you Ferdinand....if you live in a part of the city that has services available and you do not need to travel outside of it, you do not need a car. Thousands of apartments had been built pre-911 in lower Manhattan without the community that you enjoy...just boxes holding bodies overnight. That construction has been going on for over twenty years...the wealthy pay for garage space.
I need my car...travel time on subways is phenomenally long. I shop out of state and maintain a home...commute to my yard...and if an emergency arises, I can respond rapidly instead of travel time incurred with my 'free pass.' I'm only minutes away from a Manhattan or Bronx emergency call. CI peter
What an awesome post. I totally agree with you.
Ideology:... This view is blinkered, so it does not recognize any rational analysis of the many real drawbacks of auto ownership to the owner (or to the rest of the planet, for that matter).
It would appear that most people who insist on not having a car do not recognize "any rational analysis of the many real drawbacks of non-auto ownership". From my personal perspective, I don't think of a car as an absolute necessity, but I do think of it as something which if I can justify the expense of, I would consider owning. I don't think the ownership of a car would change my use of transit, but if I did own a car then it would generate a lot more "induced" trips that I would otherwise not have taken. For instance, at the weekends, it might be fun just to drive up to New Hampshire instead of waiting for MassBay Rail Enthusiasts to do its once-yearly Ski Train.
There are good reasons to own a car, even if you live in the city. The point is that there are good reasons not to use the car, even if you owned one. That's what most people don't recognize.
For instance, if I was headed out to Ohio, I suspect that even if I owned a car, it would still be a 50/50 chance that I would travel by Amtrak. I, for one, do not fancy driving 12 hours straight. Amtrak takes 14 hours, but I can sleep, and chat in the cafe car, and the fare is cheaper than just gas money.
AEM7
Dayton Hamvention...yearly celebration of high frequency fanatics...is over sixteen hours away on Amtrack and you can't get to work on time Monday. Sucking behind tractor trailers will get you there in less than eleven hours. Leave by 12 noon and your home to go to work Monday...with a trunkfull of electronic goodies that you did not have to pass electronic security control over. I know Ohio....routes 78 to 76 to 70. NEVER miss Mendelsohns and try to find time to pass by Fair Radio in Lima. Cortlandt Street is alive in my heart. Ck 73 de WB2SGT
heh. You're talking about SOUTHERN Ohio. But it's the same difference. From here it's Mass Pike, New York Thruway, then the Ohio Turnpike... I-90 all the way. I love the Mass Pike -- all the better that it's a toll road: quality service, traffic control. Lots of MA residents shun the toll road, just as well -- they take their commuter cars off the road so I can fly :-)
Amtrak BOS-Ohio isn't bad: it's 14 hours, and as long as you're going to the Erie Lakefront, it's a pretty good service. We're in Northern Ohio, but still some 100 miles from the Erie Lakefront, so it's a pain in the ass for me... but I'll get a car and it'll all be sorted... or at least get a LICENCE so I can RENT at Toledo.
AEM7
You can do I-80 most of the way and go south by Columbus BUT you better be prepared for deer and road hazards! It was nice to fly in 1975...bring some tools and a meter, change of clothing for varying weather conditions and some insulated bags for soda and beer. You'd pick up your car at the airport, go to your hotel room and spruce up, hit the HamVention, go to a party, get up the next morning by 4:30 go for breakfast, in the flea market by 6AM for twelve hours of hunting, clean up and go for dinner, get up Sunday morning to check out the leftover bargains and finally drive your rented car to the airport for the flight home. No more!
Ferdinand: I agree with everything you said, which is rare for any post in this forum.
Living in western Brooklyn, especially, from 57-93, I have seen enough of the muscleheads you mention to have had my fill. But they will always be with us.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> From my point of view, the only truly legitimate use of motor vehicles is for the large-scale shipping of goods. In an ideal world, personal autos would not exist <<<
I would have a little more respect for your point of view if you had owned an automobile for a while and then given it up by choice and turned to public transportation. Instead you sound like the people who do not own cellular phones who say there is no reason for them, or those who have never tried cocaine or ecstasy (or cigarettes or coffee) who say those items cannot possibly make anyone feel better.
My father bought the first car I had seen in the family in 1950. He had owned cars in the ‘20s when he was working for a Bronx importer driving trucks from import locations on Long Island to the city, but a downturn in his employer's fortunes (he died from competitive pressure) in the ‘30s, and wartime shortages left him without a car. He lived in Flushing, and we never used the car to go into Manhattan, but I remember pleasant outings to Jones Beach, with all the beach paraphernalia such as blankets, umbrellas, beach chairs and a large picnic basket. One summer he rented a beach apartment at Long Beach, and the automobile made it much more convenient for him to travel from his job in Brooklyn to visit the family in Long Beach. I can also remember a weekend visit to an old friend of his who had retired to a farm in South Jersey, because it was my first experience with a rural setting. Although I agree you can live in New York without an automobile, having one does increase one's freedom of choice of where to go, and I for one will not look down my nose at anyone who chooses to incur the expense of owning one.
Tom
I don't drive in the city, but I can tell you who does: non-college educated whites, especially those who are self employed in the trades and those who work for the government. Their work places are dispersed, they live on the rim of the city in neighborhoods that don't have subway service (Marine Park, Belle Harbor, Glendale, Country Club). The are a population left over from an earlier era; people like them populate the suburbs.
Many college educated whites and immigrants, in contrast, moved here to live a lifestyle that includes the subways. Most weren't living here in the years when the transit system went to hell. New York's Townies left the transit system (parks, public schools) at that time, and never went back. Most won't go in public parks in the outer boroughs either, though late in the Giuliani Administration some did edge back into Prospect Park, nervously. I don't think you'll ever get these folks out of express buses, car services, and cars and into the subway. Perhaps their children, who didn't see the "Warriors" era, will be different.
I did not finish college...went to RCA Institutes....worked the 'trades' and now certified G.O. Saw 'Warriors,' remember 'Escape from New York.' Escape routes planned, bags packed, food and fuel stored, ammo cans full. When the 'collapse' comes, I'll be out picking off the stragglers who manage to travel fifty miles outside of the city by foot.
Seriously, working people have the aspiration to travel beyond their community and their vehicles stand idle for weeks at a time, even if they have to park upon the street. One reason why I work for TA at 239th is that alternate side of the street parking is absent from the front of the building...yard parking is too far and too congested. Parking on a city street that has no signage/regulations is a ...Gift from the Lord. CI Peter
>>>I don't think
you'll ever get these folks out of express buses, car services, and cars and into the subway.
Perhaps their children, who didn't see the "Warriors" era, will be different. <<<
I know what you mean. Flicks like "The Warriors", "The Incident", "Pelham 123" and even "Saturday Night Fever" present an unremittingly negative view of NYC mass transit that ensured that the next two to three generations would be totally unresponsive to any urgings to regularly use the subways.
www.forgotten-ny.com
IMO, it's only obvious the majority of the cars here are drived by those yuppie, gentricized people living in Long Island. Everyone else takes public transportation.
That's how it is.
Completely untrue.
The reason why people have cars is that transit is geared to Manhattan more than anywhere else. From East Flatbush to Queens College, it takes almost two hours by public transport, versus a 45 minute ride by car. If a regional bus service ran on Route 27 (Linden Boulevard/Fort Hamilton Parkway) to Jamaica or Flushing, I could slash at least 30 minutes off that time.
My mom is a home attendant. She commutes from East Flatbush to southeastern Queens every day. Her mass transit time is at least three hours because the interborough bus system not involving Manhattan routes is a tangle of local bus routes. When I can drive her to work, it takes HALF THE TIME!
The outerborough transportation network is underdeveloped. The boroughs stay connected through Manhattan and thus, more traffic is routed through Manhattan, both mass transit and auto alike. When you have this situation (and laws that make it impossible to START YOUR OWN SERVICE instead of crying about what isn't there), Manhattan's congestion on the surface and the rails will continue indefinitely.
Any stats proving your claim? Of course, you can't forget the extreme environmental effects the use of auto transport comes with.
Of course, you can't forget the extreme environmental effects the use of auto transport comes with.
Extreme? Depends on what you're driving. I hate those big-ass SUVs cuz they get like 10-15 mpg and no one needs a car that big. But new hybrid technology means cars will be getting more fuel efficient every year. The Honda Insight gets like 55 mpg in the city. It's a small car, but as the technology is developed, bigger and better hybrid vehicles will be built. Ford is coming out with a hybrid suv that will get 40 mpg. Before too long, hybrid vehicles will hopefully account for a very large decrease in air pollution.
I wouldn't be too sure. Many people are easily fooled by those SUV commericals Ford and Chevy are stuffing us with.
You also have to realize that the hybrid technology you used isn't exactly spreading all out, so it'll take a considerable amount of time before anything worthwhile happens.
You also have to realize that the hybrid technology you used isn't exactly spreading all out, so it'll take a considerable amount of time before anything worthwhile happens.
Hybrid cars were only introduced about two or three years ago. There are currently only three hybrid cars available, and they're not the best selling at the moment, but I think that new car development is going in that direction.
I wouldn't be too sure. Many people are easily fooled by those SUV commericals Ford and Chevy are stuffing us with.
The Ford Escape SUV hybrid, coming out in 2003 or 2004, will be the largest hybrid vehicle yet and will show that a large vehicle can get over 40 mpg. So as the technology is developed I think we will be seeing large cars and trucks getting 40, 50, or 60 mpg, and maybe more. Then the people that have to drive those big-ass SUV won't be polluting the air so much.
He already showed you the stats about how long it takes to travel interperipherally (phew!).
The cost of driving to society is nothing in low density areas where transit can never be supported. In cities, the foolish policies of our country with regard to automobiles have created free roads that waste valuable space. Automobiles are more convenient, but in cities, the space they take up harms the quality of life of others.
The government should never have gotten into the transportation business.
The government should never have gotten into business.
If there were no free roads, then mass transit UNSUBSIDIZED would be competitive in those places where it offers a great social benefit (cities, even the smaller ones). With more riders, there wouldn't be hourly bus service, there wouldn't be so many cars slowing down a bus and there would be more combinations of routes so fewer transfers (but transfers are not nearly as painful with good headways).
People would still have the option to use a car if they really need it. If you have to pay for something, you evaluate your need for it. There are a lot of things many of us would like and can afford, but we don't get because we'd rather afford something else.
Yes, unfortunately. Yes, he gave stats, I must have overlooked, but I didn't see any sources which I should have meant before. Where are they?
These are trips that I physically made DURING RUSH HOUR, of all times.
Of course, if you wish to check the feasibility of my numbers, here is some more information:
I live six blocks from the B46 Limited (7 mins)
B46 Limited from Church Avenue to East New York Avenue (6 mins)
Cross two VERY BUSY streets to the B12 (1 min)
B12 from Utica Avenue to Alabama Avenue (15 min)
From the B12 stop to the platform (1 min)
J/Z to Sutphin Boulelvard (15 mins)
J/Z platform to Q44 Limited stop (3 mins)
Q44 from Archer Avenue to Melbourne Avenue (25 mins)
Walk to Queens College parking lot (8 mins)
SUBTOTAL: 81 minutes
B46 Limited headway: 4 minutes (wait time: 2 minutes)
B12 headway: 5 minutes (wait time: 2.5 minutes)
J/Z headway: 6 minutes (wait time: 3 minutes)
Q44 Limited headway: 10 minutes (wait time: 5 minutes)
TOTAL: 93.5 minutes ssuming good connections
TYPICAL: 100-110 minutes by transit
You can check MapQuest for driving times, although my time will be higher because I've done it before...real world conditions.
I like your post very much.
>>> If there were no free roads, then mass transit UNSUBSIDIZED would be competitive in those places where it offers a great social benefit (cities, even the smaller ones). With more riders, there wouldn't be hourly bus service, there wouldn't be so many cars slowing down a bus and there would be more combinations of routes so fewer transfers (but transfers are not nearly as painful with good headways) <<<
And our country would look more like Afghanistan. :-( Don't forget our road system did quite a bit to develop this country. Did you read about Dwight Eisenhower's month long cross country trek with an army convoy in 1920? Without the construction of free roads much of the United States would resemble the Asian portion of the former Soviet Union.
Tom
Mass transit works with a centralized origin or destination, or both, but is worthless in which both the origin and destination is decentralized. You can park and ride at the subway/bus station, but how would you get to your destination? Local buses are annoying as it is. It's even worse when you have to fit around an hourly schedule because there aren't enough passengers to justify more service.
With a car, you can go anywhere you want without worrying about a schedule.
I don't bother with schedule-based service. If it can't run often enough so that you can expect a reasonable wait when you get to the boarding location (about every 15 minutes or less), it's an annoying pain in the ass.
I have to say to the person who suggested that people go to Jamaica by bus: Buses suck. They are slow, crowded and annoying. Since I don't live near any subway station, if I have to go to any store, I don't deal with a bus, I would go to Long Island even though it's farther, because the subway doesn't offer parking lots.
If I didn't have a car (I've had a car since I was 16, although stupid NYC didn't let me drive it until I was 17), I'd have to ride the bus to get to the subway station for commutation. The bus, which is only about 4 miles long, takes longer than my trip on the Q train, about 12 miles long.
And you wonder why people will drive far away instead of taking the bus.
The problem with our country is not that people have a false sense of freedom with cars, but that policy doesn't discourage auto-use where it is wasteful. The car is much more convenient if money is no object, and as such, cars shouldn't be restricted, they should be charged for the space they take up.
An incredibly stupidity is how the Upper East River crossings and the Verrazano Bridge charge $3.50 each way and there are free bridges into Manhattan.
The government should get out of the business of building and subsidizing roads. Controlled-access highways and bridges should be privately-owned and should be required to pay property taxes. Property taxes charged to roads would be an excellent way of discouraging their construction inside major cities. Not only that, but supply and demand would dictate a time-variable toll scheme that would allow off peak travel where demand is low, but charge people enough so that they'll realize what is really the best mode (unsubsidized rapid transit).
People would be paying less in taxes and such would have more money for $5 subway fare. Those with low incomes would receive discounts as a social service.
Go for it !!!!!! Five bucks for a one way subway ride....love it. I get my teeth fixed and a little raise, Roger Toussaint gets a new Mercedes, TA picks up a few subsidies for the poor and handicapped and the mutants who cannot afford to enter the system will have to scratch their names in Fifth Avenue window glazing. American Pig is on the juice tonight..
You wouldn't get a raise and nobody would get a new Mercedes unless their existing emollument can cover it. The fare would now cover all of its expenses (it would be more like $3, since the subway in New York covers its costs very well).
Roger Toussaint TWU 100 president doesn't get a new Mercedes???? Not for it! Olde Roger will still get his new Mercedes on December 15th whether we get a raise or not.
Controlled-access highways and bridges should be privately-owned and should be required to pay property taxes.
Why only controlled-access highways? Why not every little street? Pragmatic concerns or something more?
>>>From East Flatbush to Queens College, it takes almost two hours by public
transport, versus a 45 minute ride by car. If a regional bus service ran on Route 27 (Linden
Boulevard/Fort Hamilton Parkway) to Jamaica or Flushing, I could slash at least 30 minutes
off that time. <<<
That's why the City should encourage the vans instead of trying to run them out of business. That, or make an effort to serve interborough "customers" better than they do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>>IMO, it's only obvious the majority of the cars here are drived by those yuppie, gentricized
people living in Long Island. Everyone else takes public transportation. <<<
OK, if it's the yuppies and a certain class of people turned off by mass transit who are doing the driving, ny original question is, where the heck are they all GOING in midtown every day? How come the streets are jammed and packed with overcaffeinated, horn honking madmen? Sure the truck drivers are making deliveries, and the cabs are doing what they do, but the average joe driver...it's obvious that it's a fool's game bringing your car into the city. But so many do it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well, according to the National Transit Database, 8.2 million trips are taken on NYCT on a weekday. Using the APTA's method for estimating the number of individuals riding per day (45% of total ridership), that comes out to be 3.7 million people. NYC proper has a population of 7.3 million (according to NTD data), therefore only 50% of NYC population uses the subway. Are there really that many yuppie, gentricized people living in NYC? Quit blaming the 'burbs (even though I hate suburbs too) and ask your neighbors.
>>> 8.2 million trips are taken on NYCT on a weekday. Using the APTA's method for estimating the number of individuals riding per day (45% of total ridership), that comes out to be 3.7 million people. NYC proper has a population of 7.3 million (according to NTD data), therefore only 50% of NYC population uses the subway <<<
Your last sentence should be "only 50% of NYC population uses the subway daily". This does not imply that the other 50% never use the subway. It is easy to play with statistics. Some portion of those 7.3 millions may be grade school students who walk to neighborhood schools, or are too young to leave their homes, retired people who do not travel every day, homemakers and people who work at home or live close enough to work to walk, New Yorkers on vacation out of the city, etc.
Tom
You're right, but the poster I responded to said "everyone else take public transportation" implying that all city dwellers use the subway, which is not true.
"only 50% of NYC population uses the subway daily".
On the other side of the argument, the 3.7 million people riding daily includes some who are *not* city residents -- people who do not live in NYC but come into the city on MNRR, LIRR, NJT, PATH, buses or the Hudson ferries, and then use the subway for the last part of their journey within the city.
Incidentally, can anyone answer a question for a foreigner -- are there *any* subway stations with car parking?
>>> are there *any* subway stations with car parking? <<<
I do not think there are any stations that have parking in lots owned by the TA, but there are places where people can drive to and park all day and take the train into Manhattan. The one that immediately comes to mind is the parking lot at Shea Stadium (the home of the Mets) which is next to the Willets Point station near the end of the #7 line.
Tom
Most subway stations are near legal on-street parking, though the questions of availability and time limits come into play.
No (NYC) subway stations have official park-and-ride lots attached, but many have nearby municipal or private parking lots nearby. After 9/11, the city promoted the use of the Shea Stadium parking lot as a park-and-ride lot for the 7 train.
2000 Census shows that NYC's population is just over 8 million...not 7.3 million.
Well, according to the National Transit Database, 8.2 million trips are taken on NYCT on a weekday. Using the APTA's method for estimating the number of individuals riding per day (45% of total ridership), that comes out to be 3.7 million people. NYC proper has a population of 7.3 million (according to NTD data), therefore only 50% of NYC population uses the subway. Are there really that many yuppie, gentricized people living in NYC? Quit blaming the 'burbs (even though I hate suburbs too) and ask your neighbors.
A more likely explanation is that many city residents simply don't travel by any mode other than foot on a typical day. Remember, NYC has a low rate of labor force participation, way below the national average. With no need to commute to work, and with many stores and other services available nearby in one's neighborhood, transit (and, of course, driving) becomes largely irrelevant most of the time.
A high percentage of the vehicles on the road in Manhattan, during weekdays at least, are vehicles other than private cars.
I pretty much grew up without a car - my parents never learned to drive. We went everywhere by subway - hey it made me love the Standards and the D-Types ;-)
One of the things I used to find inconvenient in those days was going shopping. We used to go to Macy's and Gimbel's on 34th ST and after a day's shopping we would be so overloaded with packages - we barely made it back to the house. It was so much nicer to have a car with a trunk to store things in so you didn't have to carry them around with you.
The other advantage I saw to a car when I first got one was instant gratification. I remember buying a TV from Macy's in the days before having a car and having to wait a month for delivery. I HATED that - after I got my car I could buy a TV or any big item and take it home with me. After that even waiting one day for delivery was unacceptable to me. So I do virtually all my shopping in Roosevelt Field, and stores like Home Depot and Costco. When I see something I want - not only I don't want to wait for delivery but also I don't want to lose a day trapped in the house on the scheduled date.
Yet another advantage to a car is that you can make impulse stops along the way - you are not confined to a particular route. For example on the way home from work I very often stop at Staples - then Costco - then the supermarket, etc. It would be very difficult to do that if I took a bus or train.
Do I drive all the way to work? The answer is yes till last week. Having a discounted employee parking space helped a lot!! I work in Manhattan but I am now using the L.I.C. - 34th Street Ferry (Thank God it's Back!). And the combined cost of the boat ride and parking is cheaper than what I was paying in Manhattan (even with a discount). I still have the flexibility of having my car, without the hassle of actually driving it into the city. Why not use the subway? Well I would have to take a bus to the train - the train to manhattan - then another bus to work - since I work way on the east side and there is no second avenue subway. (Don't ask me to walk with my bad knee)
I ride the trains when they are more convenient - for example when going to the 42nd Street Library). Still, I drive to the subway then take the train in to the city, so I am always using my car for at least part of the trip.
I live in Manhattan and I own a car -- but only because a car was effectively a necessity in my previous two locations (Champaign-Urbana, IL and Ithaca, NY) and the car is in good enough condition that it's worth more to me than it is on the market.
It certainly helps that NYC gives huge subsidies to drivers. I've been parking on the street for over a year and a half and all the city's gotten in exchange is $55 (since I forgot exactly what time alternate side started one morning). That's a pretty good deal!
I don't use the car much except to move it from one side of the street to the other. I certainly don't use it to get around Manhattan -- that would just be silly.
Having a car did come in handy two weeks ago when I found out Monday morning that I had to be in Champaign Wednesday evening. It's a small city, so flying is expensive and Amtrak is impractical (and also expensive), and, besides, I didn't know when I'd be returning. I could have rented a car, of course.
But don't blame me for the Midtown traffic jams. I don't know why people put themselves through that sort of misery. I'd say that they get what they deserve and leave it at that, but they also make life harder for the rest of us, by polluting the air, making it difficult to walk around the city, and slowing bus service to a crawl.
I'm surprised by how many Subtalkers hail from Stuyvesant High?
What about Erasmus? I would think there would be a lot since Erasmus was (is?) the biggest HS in the City?
Paul you know there are at least three of us Erasmians here; you, me and Bill "Newkirk" Managhas
I thought Franklin K Lane H.S. on the Brooklyn Queens border is larger. No?
Now that was a great school, and my alma mater.
At least it was a great school fifty years ago. Funny thing, back then, they considered it a Brooklyn high school, even though about a third of it was technically in Queens County.
My father did... and he took a trolley to go to school :-)
Which one? Church or Flatbush?
What about Erasmus?
Sums are not set as a test on Erasmus.
Barbra Streisand went to Erasmus. Is she a railfan?
Anyone by any chance know a Debbie Friedman who graduated from Erasmus around 1971 or so? She's a good friend of mine way out here in California.
I did, Class of '70.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, my mother went to Erasmus and graduated around 1958 when her name was Margie Press.
http://railroad.net/photos/nycarea/Default.asp
The landscape of the New York metropolitan area is as varied as the people who live and work here. Lush forests, high ridges, valleys and streams, wide rivers, dense urban communities¡¦ they are all within miles of each other. With the recent increase of freight competition into New York City with the split of Conrail, we are seeing a great variety of freight as well. All come together to create an interesting and varied railfan experience.
http://railroad.net/photos/nycarea/Default.asp
One correction...
IN the Redbird shot of the train at Corona yard, you said that the train is sitting between two Kawassaki trains...well, the one on the right is surely a Kawasaki, it's a Kawasaki R127, but the one on the left, #2144 (or 2147), is a Bombardier R62A subway car, not a Kawasaki...just to let you know...
For the first time since May 30, 1919 (Decoration Day) Brighton trains will not share a Coney Island terminal with any other line. Two-and-a-half years earlier (October 16, 1916) the last Brighton train had left Culver Depot.
And for the first time since July 6, 1903, when the Brighton first entered Culver Depot, none of the Coney Island lines will share a terminal, or even a common station.
I was there for a good part of the day getting shots of the terminal upstairs and downstairs too.
Goodbye old Stillwell, can't wait for your rebirth in 2004.
Bill "Newkirk"
Would anyone care to share their final shots of Stillwell Terminal with...
www.forgotten-ny.com
You will be credited and linked, where possible.
Yeah guys, do it!
Kevin's got a heck of a Stillwell page there... :)
Who Manufactured These Cars?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
And when were the Q Cars built originally? I know 1938 was the year they were converted over, but the roster is very vague.
The 1200 and 1400s were variously built by Osgood-Bradley, Jewett, Laconia and Brill. Many of these were rebuilt by the BMT's shops as Qs.
But WHEN?
Looooonnnngggg time ago. :)
1903-1907. Rebuilt 1938-39.
Thank you. I knew when they were modified, but I knew no way in hell were they originally built in 1938. Perhaps someday, years into the future, someone will find the remaining Q Cars at Naporano and possibly take an effort in restoring them.
I've seen pictures of them and there's really nothing left to "restore" ... however there's GOOD news ... there's a few still around that ARE restorable:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/bmt-q.html
The only "Q" car that I know of that could possibly be restored is car #1602A that's up in Kingston, New York and from the look of the photo it's in pretty bad shape. In fact that was the other three-car unit that was designated as a museum car (1622 was the other one). It's a shame that unit was broken up (God only knows where 1602B and C are)and only 1602A saved. They could have had a true "Q" car train set. It's nice to dream.
Wow ... didn't realize that. And they were SO ubiquitous on the Myrt in my day ... yeah, Kingston has had a hard time finding money and the help they need. When I lived down there I was aware of the trolley museum but had never seen it. Hopefully there's a benefactor to be found willing to bring it back from the brink ...
The donation box accepts money at any time of the day or night!
I would think at least one "good one" could be made out of the carcasses at Naporano, no? It's nice to see some of them have been converted back to the original BMT El car appearance. Certainly, this is no cheap undertaking, but if I had it my way, they would have all been redone over as such.
Well ... guess it's time for a dose of reality. This is the condition they were in BEFORE they got "moved" to Naporano's ...
http://www.nycrail.com/rollingstock/work/q_cars.htm
Really ain't much left of them sadly ... the site is Harry's "Other side of the tracks" ...
Whoa, I had no idea the extent of the deterioration. There is literally NOTHING left of these cars. It would almost pay to build one from scratch rather than try to refurbish one of these Q Cars. And I thought my '21 Ford Model T was a project. Thank you for the photos Selkirk.
Yeah, sorry for directing you to those - they're EXTREMELY depressing to look at. Nancy and I are lovers of the now-gone elevateds and all that made the elevateds special. If there was any hope for those Q's, we would have been rattling cages ourselves. I'm actually glad that SOME of them reverted to BU's (that's even further back in their lineage) but man oh man, those pump cars were beyond doing anything with. They weren't even useful for PARTS for other museums.
But yeah, figured seeing them would put the point across. Damned shame.
Yes that's true, sadly too many years have gone by. They've been laying dormant since the '60's and before that, the TA ran the piss out of them as work trains. I hate seeing photos like that, it's like seeing that scrapyard photo of Low-V 5072, but at least now I understand why nothing has been done to salvage them. Perhaps in 50 years time, this is what the Redbirds will look like (or worse - sob).
Unless the water down there is REALLY cold, in about 50 years, the redbirds will be a stain on the floor bottom with lots of little square packets of white powder that some dumb crackhead will try to peddle. :)
Hey Kevin,
Someone has to bring the readers of this board to a reality check.
Being active for nearly two decades in Museum operations, I have
an insiders view. There are just too many whom say, why didn't
they, why shouldn't they etc. etc. etc. blab, blab, blab. You'll
note I said so, as a realist, that's why I'm active in operations
only and financially when possible.
Yes, we do have skeltons at Branford, Seashore, Rockhill & RPC,
but for the most they are hidden from the eyes of the public.
Get my meaning.
BTW, Welcome Aboard the B.E.R.A. family to Nancy & yourself.
;| ) Sparky
Thanks, buddy! Looking forward to the "crew breakfast" on the 13th and meeting ya finally. And you'd BEST not give me a wrong lineup or I'll *take* it. :)
Hey Kevin,
No wrong line ups, if you drop it off the rail at BERA, you have to
re-rail it. Looking forward to our Sunday at Branford.
;| ) Sparky
Sparky is serious, you break it, YOU fix it.
OK, so I'll bring along an oxy-acetylene torch and some cauley wheels. No problem. :)
But seriously guys, I'd no sooner wreck 1689 than a BEER TRUCK. I'm one motorman that's QUITE boring. Now if I had a couple miles of level and tangent, that'd be a different story. But I suspect there's very little space on the old railrun for third notch for keeps, much less centering up and eating a sammich. Hell, NYCTA only had a little of THAT. Heh.
Hey Selkirk,
About a year or two ago, I piloted #1689 on the evening of Members Day when some members get a crack at the handles after the non members go home.
1689 was pulling the IRT High-V for good measure. First time I did this and was coached by Jeff H. After leaving the el platform we were off to Short Beach. When we got there, Jeff H.'s coaching paid off when I brougt the consist to a smooth stop. I could have chickened out and threw it in the hole, but I opted to be a motorMAN about it. Applause broke out in the back of the car, I think it was Mark W.
So ya see, we have something in common, being behind the handles of an arnine. Although mine was for fun and yours was for a paycheck !!
Thanks again for the great praise of my 2003 subway calendar.
Bill "Newkirk"
You're most welcome on the calendar, as was the case last year, it's LOVELY. I'm surprised the TA doesn't buy a wad of them to remind the adminiswigs why they get a paycheck. :)
And yeah, as to a nice stop, it's just a matter of knowing when to let the air out of the tires before that big, final grab. Heh. Been 30+ years for me, wonder if I still remember how. But more than anything else, I'm looking forward to meeting a bunch of folks. While it'll be nice to be in the cab again, it's really little more exciting than easing into a rental car in a way. There's nothing like a TA job to get you over the drooling part. Heh.
Heh. I'd NEVER put 1689 on the ground. Already did my lead truck of an Arnine on the ground so I've already met quota there. :)
And yeah, I'm psyched too. Looking forward to finally meeting YOU. Those of us who have done the "subway thing" don't leave drool stains. Sure it'll be nice to see an old friend on the rails after 30 years, but I signed up because of the PEOPLE ...
Hey, Kev! I've help to make 1227 presentable to the viewing public! You'll be able to take a look at here on the 13th. Sparky can attest to this...
BTW, I'm looking forwarding to bustin' ya nads when I see ya next month...;) (somebody's gotta do it).
I think there's going to be a LINE (with tickets sold) for that. Actually I'm hoping 1227 can come out and play as well. With so many BMT fans, I know there's plenty that'd rather ride with you than ride with me in an IND car. :)
I'll throw in an H2C to VD adapter and we can come on down, push you off the railroad or rescue you, depending on my WHIM. Heh.
Watch out Kev, they're going to put a link pin in that VD on 1227, and spike your H2C, the minute you get too close with 1689.
Heh. I'm hoping that someday we can put in a second track. That way Dougie and I can go "drag racing." Pair up a pair of old IRT homeballs and we can have staging lights. That'd be the teats. But not to worry, I feel the same way about 1689 as Dougie does about 1227 or Stef and 6688. No railcars will be harmed in this production. :)
Hey Kevin,
Remind me on the 13th of October to tell you about Branford drag
racing on dual trackage in 1947 on River Street. There is also
some recorded video views of the outcome of that race.
;| ) Sparky
Heh. That I'd like to see. Not to worry though, you'll find that I'm a cautious cuss. After this event I'm sure everybody's gonna be calling me:
SLOWkirkTMO. :)
Most of the dual track has long been removed, plus most of us there now are much more mature then the guys in the 40s < G >
Then this 50+ year old wants to know how much is it gonna cost to put the drag strip BACK IN? Heh. Don't mind me, I'm all bluster and chops busting. Put me in a cab and I'm a wuss ... having BEEN in a trainwreck personally, I have this thing about performing the stupid. Had religion BEFORE the trainwreck. Fortunately, I also realized that it wasn't my fault and so did the TA and NTSB. But not to worry about me, I'm no hotrodder. If the rulebook and the magic lamp say stop, I always did. And when a yellow sign said T/15, while by gum, I knew what 15 was.
Damned shame that people have to operate trains today depending on stupid digital displays that *LIE* ... back in MY day, you KNEW your speed because your EARS told you what you were doing. I guess that's why they could TRUST us with timers and key-by's ... having had a chance to play with a "hot" R143 nearly a year ago, I had no IDEA of what my speed was. I couldn't feel the damned tracks, and I had NOTHING to go by other than the display. I sincerely PITY railroaders these days ... there's no "railroad" to judge by anymore. :(
Well, there is a short stretch of double track at Shoreline by the carbarn area, FWIW. I read that there are plans to restore some more double tracking in the future as funds permit.
The entire line was originally double tracked, but the museum found itself strapped for funds early on and the second track was pulled up with great reluctance and the materials sold as scrap.
I'd love to hear 1689's bull and pinion gears get up to, oh, about F# above middle C, but there's not enough track at Shoreline to allow for it. Plus the electric bill would go through the roof (as if it doesn't already whenever they run subway cars).
Well, the BIG power draw is getting her moving. Once gears are turning, the amount of current required drops a good bit. So the only REAL limitation is running out of track or centrifugal/centripetal forces. Naa gaa daa ...
But yeah, it DOES cost some serious bucks to roll a subway car. We're going to all need to chip in to make that possible.
The mostly single track set up actually forces you to play cho cho while your have a little fun, i.e. you have a fixed amount of time to get out there & back. This involves, a schedule, turning the pole plus throwing a couple of manual switches & usually some yada yada to entertain your guests. Makes it different from a long subway run, but a challenge just the same where you have to pay serious attention to what you are doing, especially with this big car.
[But not to worry about me, I'm no hotrodder ...]
We're not worryed, as our "pilot" will ensure that. Also, being a museum, despite some words you may here from us from time to time, we all care more about preserving the equipment so we can have a little fun again and again.
[I had no IDEA of what my speed was. I couldn't feel the
damned tracks, and I had NOTHING to go ...}
Branford will make you feel right at home in this regard, although we have couple of spots in the run where you'll have to keep it down to trolley speed. I love Anon-e-mouse's photo of the R-9 crossing the quarry tressel ... she's filling up the whole green tunnel !
"Autumn in New York" & events like this is why at the place. The 3/4 Ton Crew will probably be doing track work this Saturday.
Heh. Should be an interesting ride indeed. And yes, COAST is a speed too. That was one of the beauties about the Arnines - without the dynamic setup, coast was something you did more often than not. I'm VERY much looking forward to meeting everybody. :)
I love Anon-e-mouse's photo of the R-9 crossing the quarry tressel ... she's filling up the whole green tunnel !
Glad you enjoyed... here's a reprise, just for good measure :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems so strange seeing an R-9 with a trolly pole. I guess that's no stranger than seeing CTA equipment run under wire at the IRM but at least the Skokie Swift runs under a pan!
APOLOGIES for my previous going to the wrong thread - we're testing Netscape 7 for a new NSClean product and I've already found a *MAJOR* insect in Netscape 7 ... geez, can't AOL get ANYTHING right? Mozilla didn't do this ... sheesh.
The LAST fairly stable version of Netscape was 4.7X. 5 was a piece of crap, 6 had more bugs than Windows & you already know about 7.
That's why I stopped with 4.78. Only problem with it is every once in a while it GPF's kernal.exe and the only way to get Billy's dumb*** Windoze to get rid of the error box is to do a full hot boot.
Agreed ... I actually threw back to 4.76 for my own "ordinary use" but around here, we make browser cleaner-uppers for sale so we had to pucker up and kiss the pig. Was test driving it last night to see if we needed to make a new "NSClean 7" and sadly, we DO have to write new code (like I don't already have enough to do) ... but man oh man, what an unvarnished TURD. No wonder AOL who makes Netscape uses Aiyee as their browser. That aspect alone pretty much sums it all up. The crash problems by the way are memory management faults in Win98. When programs free up memory, Win98 doesn't do the cleanup it's told to. That of course is purposefully done since cleaning up memory would make Meedya Player even jerkier.
Strangely, Netscape works just DANDY on Linux. If only Billy hadn't killed Netscape Communications Corp. And then GOT AWAY WITH DOING IT ...
Strangely, Netscape works just DANDY on Linux. If only Billy hadn't killed Netscape Communications Corp. And then GOT AWAY WITH DOING IT ...
Actually, Netscape on unix has a whole host of problems. Here at MIT they use Netscape on all their unix workstation clusters (both Solaris and Linux) and many things just DON'T WORK. Netscape sometimes randomly quits (under X), and other times it refuses to display the websites. Now that could be as much fault of the website as the browser, but I don't care -- it's not FUNCTIONAL if I can't look a webpage I need to look at.
Netscape really wasn't that great. I've always liked IE better, even if it is slower and has a variety of known bugs. I liked IE3 better than any version of IE. IE4 was slow and buggy, IE5 is better but there are just many more things to go wrong than under IE3.
AEM7
I've had very good luck with Netscape on Mandrake Linux. But you DO have to make sure your configurations are properly set. Once there, all I've ever had any problems with is sites that were coughed up with Front Page and clueless webmasters who can't close a freaking tag. There's LOTS of really bad web pages out there.
Now Slowaris, no surprise. Sun really doesn't have a clue. For laughs and giggles though, I'll often browse with KDE ... it works pretty adequately for most websites as well. The desktop shell I mean. :)
Kevin, it's an H2A, OK?
Whoops ... forgot my scorecard. :)
Partial credit for H2-something? Heh.
For the record, 6688 has H-2-C couplers.
I'll bring some tow chains. :)
As of last week...
I'll take my chances with the usual foamers...;-)
Wimp. :)
Safety First....it's the rules ta live by...
(But weren't rules MADE to be broken????)
Heh. Well, I can always say one thing and do another. But putting trains on the ground or having to file a report ... I'll pass on even going anywhere near there. Like I said, I'm a boring ride. :)
Good to hear that...besides as Jeff H. once told me: BMT = Barely Moving Trains...;-)
Well, if Jeff was involved in setting up the timers, I'm having visions of the 135th Street southbound merge or homeball alley at Brighton. Wonder if I can do a run only on the first notch without reverting to smoke signals? :)
Hey Doug, whatever happened to that picture of 1227 you were going to get for me?
Karl,
Here are links to two photo's I posted on Dave's Electric RR's website. The first is a shot I took of 1227 on Members Day 1985
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/sltm/htm/sltm016.htm 1227
The second is one one of my fathers pictures of 1362 & 1349 entering the loop on Members Day 1972.
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/sltm/htm/sltm050.htm
Hope you like them
Steve Loitsch
Steve, Thanks for the links! I'm sort of stupid about these things, but I couldn't get the first one to work. The second one worked fine. I deleted the car number at the end of the link, and then it worked fine.
Nice pictures. I wish that I could get to see those cars in person again. I rode 1227 in the 1940's, and probably the others as well.
Thanks Again!
Karl B
Hey partner!
Did I miss something? Jeff can help out here, but are my eyes playing tricks or is there a two car train entering the loop? Is that even possible? I hope no one amputated the Van Dorn Couplers in the process.
It should be noted that about 2 years ago, the Hi-V pulled 1349 around the loop with the use of a tow bar.
-Stef
Hiya Stef,
I actually dont know, I was probably there with Dad when he took this, but I would have been in a baby carriage then!!!!! I do not recall ever seeing an el train going around the loop. The biggest car/train I have ever seen on the loop was CNS&M #709. Looking forward to seeing some of you all on the 28th & 29th
Steve Loitsch
Looks like the train was going just far enough into the loop
to clear the main line.
The cars formerly at South Brooklyn were modified for use in work service. The one we have at TMNY is severely rotted. It isn't rusted like an old Desoto it needs LABOR, Money and Wood. A frame up restoration begins with a frame. Why not help make a good Q car out of the one good Q car left?
When you going to change the song at TMNY. I been listening to the
same overture since 1977. Yeah ... Yeah ... Yeah Always crying
poverty. Many will say I'm museum bashing, since I'm active at
other museums. 'taint so, just renewed my membership at TMNY
for the past due year & a year in the future. So I can insert
my opnionation as an insider. If you don't want it published,
then return my check, I'll find another home for the funds.
You need communication with your membership. Does anyone at TMNY
know, what's happening except the Elitist few.
For those that never have, may suggest a personal visit and then
from your own opinion.
;|( Sparky
John Sikorski
B.E.R.A., Seashore Trolley Museum, Rockhill Trolley Museum and TMNY
Sparky, do you have any plans of visiting the RTM anytime this fall?
Karl,
Not this year, overlapping event at Branford, preempts doing the
fall spectacular in October.
Well I am planning, the Good Lord Willing and the creek doesn't rise
to get qualified and spend some time in 2003.
But what about the Route 23 sojourn on October 27. Hopefully, they
haven't sold out.
;| ) Sparky
Sparky,
Too Bad! I live only about 60 miles from Orbisonia, and I thought that I might finally get to meet a fellow subtalker after all these years.
I think it is a great place with both the RTM and the EBT at the same location. When I was younger I got up there often, but now I am hard pressed to get there once a year.
Karl
But Karl, you can meet lots of you friends every day right here. And when you get your copy of the Tripper this month there I am with Pelham Bay Dave & his son. The BMTman is the man behind the camera. Stef was out of camera range at that moment.
If we can get a paint brush in Spark's hands then maybe you'll get to SEE him too < G >
BTW, he's up at Seashore for the next couple of weeks.
Thurston, There's nothing I would like more than to visit Branford. I'm really counting on seeing any of the gate cars that are available for viewing. I am getting older though, and the thought of that 300 mile trip, and dealing with the New York area traffic, scares the .... out of me. I guess that I have been living out in the country too long.
It always seems that the special weekends fall at the same time as York TCA (where I am a registration volunteer), or during one of my wife's craft shows. I'll probably get there sometime on a regular weekend, and none of the SubTalkers will be there.
I do hope to get to the transit show in King of Prussia on the 21st, and just might get to meet some of the guys there.
I'll probably get there sometime on a regular weekend, and none of the SubTalkers will be there.
Give me enough advance warning (and plan the trip for a Saturday - being at Branford wears me out so I like to have Sunday to recuperate before going back to work on Monday) and I'll make a point of signing up to operate that day.
I do hope to get to the transit show in King of Prussia on the 21st ...
I was hoping to as well, but unless my plans change significantly I'll be making a round trip from NJ to Silver Spring, MD that day with no time for a detour via King of Prussia. If for some reason I DO decide I can detour that way, I'll only be there for an hour or so at the very beginning.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, I don't know what time the show opens on Saturday, do you?
0930, according to the Upcoming Events section of this website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It would be to my advantage to be there early, but considering the distance, I probably won't get there quite that early.
Karl: What is this show you mentioned at King of Prussia. Is it the same as the York Show? Hope you are well.
Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33
2002 Fall Trolley Extravaganza... for more information see the Upcoming Events section of this website. Not at all connected to the York show. And, unless a new sponsor can be found, this will be the last one... MTS Imports has paid the bills for a number of years but they've decided it's not worth the hassle any more. (Note that this is not to be confused with the every-other-year East Penn show that occurs in the spring.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We'll try to get some good shots of G & 1227 into the Tripper for you.
In addition you should be pleased to know that one of our members has started working on Blind Trailer 197.
I've seen the one picture of 197 in this month's online version of the Tripper.
Did restoration efforts on 1349 come to a halt?
[Did restoration efforts on 1349 (convertable elevated gate car) come to a halt?]
Apparently so :-(
The active rt projects right now are 6688, 503 & 197. Some work was done to 1227, more may occur in the near future.
Sparky,
The 1:1 scale personal train set mentality is in effect?
-Robert King
A problem that I see is that one of the main guys there is spread way too thin, i.e. he's at Coney Island, Essex & Kingston.
Do you guys have any construction drawings for this car? That is a great starting point to plan out your restoration, although I have seen people make do with approximating with what's left. To varying degrees of success anyways.
If I lived anywhere's near TMNY, I'd lend a hand to restore a car that used to rattle my apartment windows!
Did the old Myrtle Avenue Elevated have a designated Route Number or Letter?
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.org
The Myrtle L was number 11 after 1924 and the "MJ" on maps in the '60s.
Neither designation ever appeared on trains, nor did anyone refer to the route by those designations in everyday use.
Forgive me, I'm just impatient, but the thing is we knew what the assignemnts would be like before the 7/22/01 changes and the 12/16/01 changes. How come its the day before 9/8 and we still don't know anything? It can't be that the TA hasn't told anybody, can it? Also, someone at bustalk said new schedules were posted, but I haven't seen any.
Once again, I am a very impatient fellow.
TA came out with the car assignment sheet yesterday, and it wasn't updated. At all.
For now, what you see is what you get.
Actually, it was updated, but only very slightly. Nothing we didn't already know (like a train of R-40Ms on the N).
David
The Q Local and F Trains will have to leave from their starting points as scheduled when they are just making a stop. Or else they'd need to tune any other lines they share trackage with.
[How come its the day before 9/8 and we still don't know anything? It can't be that the TA hasn't told anybody, can it?]
It's very simple - obviouslu\y, somebody at Transit forgot that the agency's ONLY reason for existing is to provide timely fleet-assingnment information to railfans.
I just saw the official Stations Division Bulletin on Stillwell.
At Brighton beach the Circle (local) will use the Southbound Platform and
the Diamond will use the norhtbound Platform.
This assingment is in effect when circle and diamond are running.
Since this is Stations now info on relay but I am guessing: trains on the express track can be switched to the Northbound express ands then to Northbound local. Trainas on local treack can be switched past the station to a track between the local and express and then re-enter ont he express.
Alex, zman- do you have the actual relay?
Alex will have it (or should have it). I certainly won't since I hardly ever see BBC.
Does BBC stand for Brighton Beach Complex?
I don't think he was inferring that he has never seen Fawlty Towers or Monty Python.
Brighton
BeaCh
It's RTO-speak.
David
Where did that come from?!!!
Every terminal has a 3-character code for entering incidents into the computer -- "BBC" is what whoever designed the system came up with for Brighton Beach, and I don't know why that particular combination of letters was picked. Could have been "BRB," could have been "BBH," could have been a lot of things -- but it's "BBC."
David
Brighton
BeaCh
It's RTO-speak.
David
Relays are still a thing of great mystery.
The Q work program has damned near every Q during the weekdays relaying at Brighton. On the other hand, one of the Q Sup'ts said there will be no relays. Instead, arriving SB circles will terminate and depart from the express track on one platform, while arriving expresses will terminate and depart from the other - just like they do at 57/7. This will leave the local tracks open for put-ins/lay-ups. Personally, I don't get to Brighton until Thursday, so I figure someone will tell me what they're really doing before then.
Doing that delays passangers going to Brighton Beach as trains wait for their assigned track to open up.
Why not run all the trains through Brighton Beach, discharge at the southbound express, then relay using the crossover south of the station? I had always wondered why this wasn't done at 57th St, before the construction north of the station began.
I thought they should do that as well. It minimizes trains crossing over each other.
Why not use A6 (Manhattan Side layup) for relay?
Isn't the problem you can't go from A1 to A2, no full ladder to cross all the tracks??
Kings Hwy has a full ladder to cross all 4 tracks...(just some pointless info).
You need to check the track maps. The track order is as follows starting from northernmost (southbound local) A1, A5, A3, A4, A6, A2.
SO?
They have rented the second floor of 505 Brighton Beach Avenue and building next to it for "RTO Dispatcher's Office" They built a bridge over to it from fare control into the 2nd floor within 2 weeks. Go check it out at the Brighton Beach Station at the Brighton 4th Street exit. It can be seen from a Coney Island Bound Q Local Train.
One thing to add on that, I have seen lots of equipment taken out of Stillwell Ave. station ready to be taken to other complexes.
The tower was going to be way to crosded.
They still keep open that gate (with the R9 Cab lock) open so you can cross over??
the local can switch tracks before the station just like the express can when it switches to the northbound platform if there's a train in the SB platform.
Annoucing a new web site of interest to Transit Employees-- Station Agents, CTAs, Revenue Employees. The webmaster is yours truly.While non-employees could access the site, the info is of most interest to employees of the Stations Division.
The site is not in competition with this site and was designed using Front Page 2002. While the site eventually will contain station info on NJT,etc. it will not have info that is on this site.
Many thanks to those subtalkers who served as Beta Testers.
It would help to have the URL.
Duh!! LOL!!
www.stationreporter.net
Do you know if Peggy will be involved with the site?
Yes. Some material she has that Dave did not add to this site will eventually find a home on the new site.
I may add thought that the primary interest of the new site is for Transit employees- forsm, news, etc. of inmterest to station agents, CTAs, Reveneu Employees.
While railfanning today I headed up to Ditmars with R68A 5200 and on the way back to Lex Ave...well we got on a R40M to begin with, south motor being 4458. We saw on the other side at like 39th street heading to Ditmars, train with south motor 4450. Interesting sight, they are definately coming to the N.
And soon. For the past 6 weeks or so he folks at ENY have been seperating the R42 and R40M cars into solid trainsets to facilitate the transfer.
It's a shame the R-40 slants won't be returning to the "E" and the "F" line (where they originated). Are these cars already being scrapped?
No. It's a fleet expansion for Jamaica/Pitkin mostly. When an R40/R40M gets to Coney Island from East New York, An R32 gets sent over to Jamaica. The PhaseIIs are all CI have. PhaseI and II are at Jamaica and Pitkin has only PhaseIs. So a car to Jamaica can mean a car for Pitkin.
No, they're supposed to survive until the R-160 order arrives.
(
yeah, i saw an r40m train at 20th avenue in brooklyn today on the N,i only caught one car number though, 4472 i think.
I saw one set at 57th St. waiting for my Stillwell bound R68 Q.
I know that N and R service was suspended until late October. Just curious on each line what equipment each line used from A thru Z until normal service was restored on all B-division lines? Thanks.
Ok, it's not exact, but there is no false information here as far as I know:
A: same
B: same
C: didn't exist at one point, otherwise same
D: same
E: More R46s than usual, still dominated by R32s. R46s came from R.
F: Had more service because it was the only QB express at one point, got R46s from R.
G: same
J: same, extended to 95, got more R42s from M
L: same
M: same, extended via Sea Beach, used some R40s from Diamond Q
N: didn't exist
Q: circle: Forest Hills-Coney Island, all local, used R32s from E, N, and R, used its regular R68s, I remember seeing an R46 once, and I saw R40s on the last day, probably from Diamond Q.
diamond: more R68s than usual from circle Q and N line
R: didn't exist
S: all the same
Z: didn't exist
THe M borrowed some slants, the J remained R42/40M, the circle Q had a few sets of Jamaica R32's and a rare R46, the W and diamond Q stayed as they are today. I can also confirm that one set of R32's made at least one run on the M during the emergency reroutes.
Did R38's run on the E as well? I did see the picture and have one saved on an R46 on the Q. R32 on the M, well that is rare!
The R38's only run on the A & C Lines, and I think I seen a R46 on the Q Line before.
Was it between September 16th and October 28th of last year? During that time, the Q ran from Forest Hills in place of the suspended R, so it had a few R46s assigned to it. It was interesting to see R46s on the Brighton Line, which haven't run there since the 70s.
Are there any Subway Calendars available from MTA? Because I have a Bus Calendar, and was wondering did they make one for the Subways.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Have you checked at the Transit Museum store?
Excellent subway calendars are available from Newkirk Images.
And the 2003 version is STUNNING ... if you haven't already gotten yours, I highly recommend doing so ...
YEA! Check out the April Photo! BMT standards on the Broadway Brooklyn El.
I'm particularly partial to the July shot myself, mighty Arnines coming home via the west end to the old layup yard at Coney, crossing over to the yard lead. But then that's me.
What Bill has way too much CLASS to go into is that every shot has the World Trade towers in there as his own personal tribute. And they're all STUNNING shots of some Bronx El's, a good amount of redbirds on the Flushing, F trains on the Culver, the Brighton and even SIRT ... it's a WONDERFUL piece of artistry and done VERY tastefully.
Say Kevin,
Excellent ... superior ... five star ... and being biased to my
home line, it's highlighted front and rear covers in the double
and single lettered version also.
The calendar is also available at the Shore Line Trolley Museum
Gift Shop.
;| ) Sparky
Bill "Newkirk" does excellent work. But don't mind me, even if it was running down the West End, nothing like the majesty of a mighty Arnine coming across an interlock sideways. :)
His calendar each year though NEVER disappoints ... and this one's a fitting memorial.
..."His calendar each year though NEVER disappoints ... and this one's a fitting memorial"...
I concur 1000%, for those of you who have never purchased his
calendar. Well, what can we say. CENSORED.
;| ) Sparky
I got mine on Friday from the GCT shop. Thanks Bill!
Acela,
Yes there is a subway calendar. As RonInBayside said they are available at the Transit Museum gift shop in GCT and possibly Times Square.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
I got mine at Grand Centrals' Transit Museum store. As usual, good job!
Everyone is going to think that... I'm right, you're wrong. Some of us go to the trouble of doing some research to prove our point... but even research cannot help anyone to be certain -- there's always room for doubt. You can always claim that a certain arrangement is untried thus nobody can prove anything.
*sigh*
Sometimes I would even claim my alleged "expertise" makes my opinion worth more than others'. But, what would be the point? Those who strongly believe in what they believe will always believe it.
Auto or transit? This is fundamentally a matter of personal preference. For my part, I like my gas-guzzling 15 mpg stationwagon.
AEM7
nothing wrong with personal transport when you want and need it. If you want to pay for oil and gas and rubber all the time...it is your choice. The whole idea was that many city residents maintain a personal vehicle when they really do not need it and someone from out of town lacking mass transit shouild not have to access the city because they should have rapid transit access which can be driven to.
I'm Mr. inbetween as i would like to take the subway to work and leave my car at the yard and use it as i wish.
This being a free country you can use a station wagon to your heart's content.
My wife and I own a Ford Focus station wagon. It was supposed to get 33 mpg average in fuel efficiency but it only does 27-28 or so - in part because my wife does speed a bit to get to certain work assignments, and air resistance increases significantly over 55 mph. Also, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that when you need to run the air conditioner, a small four-cylinder engine starts to complain and work harder, eating more gas.
I use SEPTA and my feet to get around.
Yes, living here in the good 'ole USA can bring its advantages, and it's disadvantages of course. I don't have to mention them, I think?
What are the disadvantages?
You have to look out for yourself.
In the old Soviet Union, you could be handed a job of sorts, assigned to an apartment (crappy though it might be with one overflowing toilet to serve 10 people) and given a ration coupon for some moldy black bread and sausage for which you had to wait 3 hours in line. In return for this guarantee of a roof over your head and food to eat, you agreed to keep your mouth shut about politics, and if a Communist Party official was interested in your opinion, he would supply it to you and you could regurgitate it back to him on command.
But the point is, you didn't really have to do anything for this. In the US, though there is a safety net, you do have more responsibility for your own self.
Let's see. Besides what Ron said, peop;le get a bit too carried away with their rights.
Explain why we have one of the highest crime rates here, why we are losing the War on Drugs (the government's wording, not mine) even though bureaucrats continue to waste nillions of tax dollars on it.
We have metal detectors in schools, orgizations like the KKK and the ADL. Things never seem to get done with our bureaucratic government.
We have poor people around here as rich people. People have chances while others don't.
You have to look out for yourself.
If only that were true. I think that in general in Europe people are much more willing to accept personal responsibility in a different kind of way -- say you slip and fall in a store. No you don't sue the store, because you'd be laughed out of court in London...
...why we are losing the War on Drugs (the government's wording, not mine)
I don't know about that. "Drugs" is this interesting issue, isn't it. Is it good? Is it bad? Should it be forbidden? I think what they need to do is to complete the information loop. They need to do what they do in other areas... just as you might choose to live in the city or in the suburbs, you should be able to choose to live with or without drugs... but get clear on this: if you choose to live with drugs, you accept the consequences... Of course, they need to make sure you know what the consequences are.
I don't know any drug that is so dangerous that if you do it once, you will never get away from it. I may be misinformed in this respect, but even if there were drugs that you'd never get away from, I think the fact remains that those who use it chose to use it at one stage. We can work to help that choice an informed choice... but I don't think we should really be banning it. This is not like the seatbelt/no-seatbelt issue where the decision is made everyday... this is an informed lifestyle decision.
AEM7
"I don't know any drug that is so dangerous that if you do it once, you will never get away from it. I may be misinformed in this respect, but even if there were drugs that you'd never get away from, I think the fact remains that those who use it chose to use it at one stage. We can work to help that choice an informed choice... but I don't think we should really be banning it. This is not like the seatbelt/no-seatbelt issue where the decision is made everyday... this is an informed lifestyle decision. "
That is always controversial. Purely from a medical standpoint, and having had first-hand experience with addicts, I will venture to say that heroin addiction is the most difficult to get away from. It is a powerful, enslaving addiction, both physically and psychologically. It is also among the most devastating, because a user in the advanced stage of the addiction really cannot function competently in society at all (needing a fix every 2 hours).
Education about drugs is sorely needed and must be openlly and frankly offered in a non-judgmental fashion to all.
(I may be misinformed in this respect, but even if there were drugs that you'd never get away from, I think the fact remains that those who use it chose to use it at one stage. We can work to help that choice an informed choice... but I don't think we should really be banning it. This is not like the seatbelt/no-seatbelt issue where the decision is made everyday... this is an informed lifestyle decision.)
Here in New York, a magnet for those with all kinds of problems who are shipped here from elsewhere, addicts have an unlimted right to all kinds of assistance. If you want to take the John Stuart Mills approach you need to go all the way -- they made their choices, so let them die, and kill them if they threaten us. If society has an obligation to make up for self-destructive behavior, than it has a right to try to stop it.
Your quote comes from my posting, not RonInBayside's. He forgot to put the italics in when quoting.
I agree with your logic of letting them die. If they want to seek help, however, there are little reason why help shouldn't be provided. At their expense, of course.
AEM7
Yes, I did not post using the appropriate punctuation. Sorry.
"I agree with your logic of letting them die. If they want to seek help, however, there are little reason why help shouldn't be provided. At their expense, of course."
Your logic, not mine.
You make your bed,YOU lay in it!!!I've known people whom were users,and now lead productive lives. You have to come to an understanding that you are sick,and you need to change your life. ''It be callin'me,man.''Thats what a friend told me years ago.I TRIED TO HELP,but you can't help someone like that.You have to OFFER ,SUGGEST,but not help.If you help,you enable,something we don't want to do....
One could argue that we are not willing to pay the cost for a successful drug war.
What might a really radical, hypothetical drug war look like?
Positive incentives:
-Detoxification treatment for those who ask for it
-Job training on a larger scale than today
-Community redevelopment on a far higher scale than today with affluent communities subsidizing less affluent ones
-Massive aid to foreign countries and elimination of all farm import tariffs on soybeans and other cash crops, regardless of domestic political sentiment expressed by US farmers
-Increase consumption of coffee and offer price supports to foreign growers
Negative incentives:
-Drug dealers are shot dead on sight by police.
-Opium poppy fields and coca-growing regions leafleted as a warning, and then nerve gas applied to kill any grower foolish enough to stay in those fields. Hundreds or thousands may die, but we would have to accept that
-Smuggler airplanes shot down (this is done in Peru today)
Could we deal with our own internal dissent about this? Could we deal with the outrage we'd provoke in South America and Asia? We'd end up invading and installing military governors in several countries.
Somehow I dn't think this scenario would work too well...
Here in New York, a magnet for those with all kinds of problems who are shipped here from elsewhere, addicts have an unlimted right to all kinds of assistance.
I get a (sardonic) laugh or two out of NYC's record with methadone treatments. Now keep in mind that methadone is not a cure for heroin addiction, it being a powerfully addictive drug itself, but it is intended to enable heroin addicts to function in society while they seek permanent solutions to their addictions. "Function in society" means, of course, holding a job - people receiving methadone maintenance treatment are expected to work. Getting up to work every day is a vital component of addicition treatment.
Guess what: according to statistics I saw a year or so ago, a ludicrously low percentage of NYC's methadone-treatment participants hold jobs or attend school, something south of 10%. Most of the rest live free and easy courtesy of welfare or SSDI.
I saw the words "Illicit drugs" and I remembered to take a hit off my crackpipe. Thanks Ron :-)
You're welcome, I think...
New Sovietsky Empire hasn't improved. I gave up asking the Rooskie crew about history...are their lips sealed or are they just plain stupidsky? Sub M-249, first in a series of 32 diesel/electric units in 1952 with LOX tanks. Sub K-19 of a series...refitted from nuclear leaks..'Widowmaker.' Sub 'Kursk,' launched torpeadoes before opening sea doors. Chernobyl??? Three carbon pile reactors...one melted down and over fifty thousand lives were lost in attempts for site remuneration. These guys were hired based upon their backgrounds as engineers and technicians...and have to call me from troubles to fill out technical reports and inspection forms? There is a safety net in the US.....it's people like me grateful for the work who look out for the stupid and I can't be everywhere all the time.
IN the PITS.....BIE...BIE...SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a mini van myself,but to get to/from work, I use the bus.. yeah it saves gas [to a point]and miles on the van,but... sometimes I like to just jump in and drive to work!!!!I dont,but i would like to.It cost less for me to take the bus than to drive!!!!
In other words, "Don't confuse me with facts. My mind is made up."
Yo dude ... did that mail I sent through NotMail ever make it to you? Just wanted to check ...
Kevin, I just got home from Lake George. Still recovering from the near perfect weather (as you already know) and a great show. I've not yet got into my backlog of E-mail but will tonight.
Merely concerned that Notmail lost both of them that were sent out last week. Hope ya had fun ... had hoped to see you on the way back. Not all was lost though, got out to some serious pasture mooing. Agh. :)
Auto or transit? This is fundamentally a matter of personal preference. For my part, I like my gas-guzzling 15 mpg stationwagon.
If you personally pay all the costs of your choice, then I agree that it's fundamentally a matter of personal preference.
But you don't personally pay for the pollution your station wagon produces, or for the land it occupies, or for the reduced access it forces on pedestrians and other vehicles, or for countless other costs it generates.
As long as somebody else bears some of your costs, then somebody else has a say.
But you don't personally pay for the pollution your station wagon produces, or for the land it occupies...
You don't personally pay for the costs of riding MTA either. You certainly don't pay for the costs of the right-of-way, and you don't pay for the capital costs of the rolling stock, and you don't pay for the congestion costs inposed on everyone else when a subway train has to stop at a station that would otherwise be underutilized and closed.
No one pays their true transportation costs. People should. But that should apply equally to transits and station wagons.
AEM7
You don't personally pay for the costs of riding MTA either.
I never claimed that I did. Since all forms of transportation are cross-subsidized in the U.S., we all have the right (and perhaps the responsibility) to scrutinize others' choices.
But, actually, I very well may pay for my own costs. I very rarely ride the commuter rail or the outer borough buses, which are the big money losers in the MTA network. Except when I'm railfanning, most of my subway rides are very short (no more than four miles, and usually about half that), and the lines I ride are crowded enough that I rarely get a seat, yet I still pay the full $1.36 fare. The way the system is set up, it's hard to tell for sure.
You certainly don't pay for the costs of the right-of-way,
What costs are those? The right-of-way is buried underneath city streets, and on my home line it's been buried there for 98 years. It's not like, for my subway line to be built, a bunch of people had their property bought at prices they didn't find acceptable and now a wide swath of land is sitting, rent-free, obstructing access to local residents.
and you don't pay for the capital costs of the rolling stock,
Deduct it from my $1.36 fare.
and you don't pay for the congestion costs inposed on everyone else when a subway train has to stop at a station that would otherwise be underutilized and closed.
I rarely use those stations except when doing extreme railfanning. My home station has over 5 million paid fares per year; almost 300 stations are ahead of it on the list of stations that might be considered underused.
No one pays their true transportation costs. People should. But that should apply equally to transits and station wagons.
I agree. Just make sure not to forget about some of those costs.
My furniture is like fucking subway furniture. Everything is made of plastic or metal. It sucks. And I don't even have a fucking choice, I rent thsi place. I want to throw all my fucking furniture out. I would rather live in a Redbird, that would be better quality of life, at least I would OWN the fucking Redbird. How much are they going for retail? I could buy one and live in it.
AEM7
Well, sorry about the furniture but isn't it easier to clean? While others have nice open apartments, my place looks more like Canal or Cortlandt Street filled with 'stuff.' Gotta have stuff...stuff is good. Have a house in New Jersey filled with more stuff. Try going into RadioShack and asking for a 32 microHenry variable inductor or a 500 pf 4 KVDC variable capacitor...I have them and more!
Redbirds can never be sold for anything but scrap metal or given away to museums. TA has a batch of Federal grants to replace them.
1. Redbirds are laden with asbestos...grant for abatement
2. Redbirds don't accomodate the handicapped...ADA on R142
3. Redbirds don't provide employment...BBD in Plattsburgh
4. Redbirds aren't SOA...Federal grant for improved mass transit
In fact, the Reefing program was initiated to prevent environmental exposure of asbestos to the environment by sinking them rather than transporting accross state lines to smelters. We have a bunch of great guys doing undercar that brush out all the black dusty globs of glop...I can't do it...I've been exposed to a lot in my lifetime and the Personal Protection Equipment is not adaquate for the hazard.
BTW: You can't even wash out the carbody to make a 'homeless home.'
Wow, hopefully the exposure you experienced won't hinder your health later in life, though that's a bit of a red herring, unfortunately. It's a pity your work for all this time hasn't gone majorly noticed. You have my thanks, Juice!!
The 'birds are good, no doubt, but discussing all the issues you mentioned, it makes it all the better to live in an actual house.
The 'birds are good, no doubt, but discussing all the issues you mentioned, it makes it all the better to live in an actual house.
I was under the impression that you can live around asbestos without much hazard, it's only when you open up the insulation and brush out the stuff that it is dangerous. Lots of buildings here at MIT still have asbestos, and they only remove them as part of building refits. All they seem to do is to vacuum them up and then dump the grey air outside... Unlike lead paint, which is bad for you if you just live around it, I thought asbestos is only hazardous for those who work with it.
I used to live in an apartment with an grey asbestos balcony.
See, I was think about it this way: my apartment really isn't much bigger than a bus. If I spent the money on a bus, instead of paying $900 per month rent I will simply pay $900 per month in instalments. A bus will cost me about $25,000 and at 14% APR that's only three years I need to pay it off. If I lived in a bus, I could drive it to work, if I wanted to live by the seaside I could drive there for a week, and I could even drive to the suburbs and live there for a while, and I could drive up to New Hampshire for the weekend and live in my "log cabin" there. Much better value for money than this piece of shit apartment in Davis Sq.
Maybe the bus would be expensive to maintain, so I would need to spread the loan over four years to allow some money for maintenance. I want one of those MCI buses that Greyhound had in the 80s. They were so cute, and they were the buses I grew up with.
AEM7
Asbestos is a respiratory hazard. Loose, fraying insulation blankets (like those you find around pipes) are a source of risk. When I bought an old house, one of the first things I did was asbestos mitigation.
Besides what Ron mentioned, you have to realize how fanatic parents got over the whole 'toxic pool near the school' story a couple of days ago. I wasn;t sure what story it was, but as soon as it got out, people were panicking crazily.
People want safety first. Anything else is secondary priority.
Besides what Ron mentioned, you have to realize how fanatic parents got over the whole 'toxic pool near the school' story a couple of days ago.
Sounds like that story we had. Some school out in the middle of Ohio was built on grounds that had a higher level of radiation than background (pretty sure it was Xenon gas), and then all the parents went haywire when it got out and transferred all the kids. I was talking to some local people out here in Boston and when I said "my girlfriend went to River Valley" and they were like, "does she glow in the dark?"
Gah!
People want safety first. Anything else is secondary priority.
That's precisely the wrong attitude to have... not all risks are the same. For instance, in this country at least, breaking the speed limit in urban areas (25mph) seems to be much more socially acceptable than driving drunk. So it's okay to risk knocking someone over if you're in a rush or in a rage, but it's not okay if you're driving drunk?
I would hazard to suggest many drunk drivers who have had say two or three drinks but are trying to focus on driving are considerably better drivers than a driver who's just had an argument or are already late for an important appointment, and are constantly thinking about something else while they are on the road.
There needs to be a social campaign against driving while angry and one against speeding because you're in a hurry.
AEM7
I understand that, but that's how the general public thinks. Why do you think people went crazy with airline travel when 9/11 happened?
I would hazard to suggest many drunk drivers who have had say two or three drinks but are trying to focus on driving are considerably better drivers than a driver who's just had an argument or are already late for an important appointment, and are constantly thinking about something else while they are on the road.
They're both a menace. The difference is that the only thing that can improve the drunk's ability to drive is time (recognizing that you are impaired and trying harder is great in theory but worthless in practice), whereas someone whose driving is high risk because of an argument or some other such cause can immediately regain their ability simply by taking a couple of deep breaths and realizing their stupidity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
whereas someone whose driving is high risk because of an argument or some other such cause can immediately regain their ability simply by taking a couple of deep breaths and realizing their stupidity.
On the railroad, we send crew home if they sign on visibly upset. There is a reason for this. They are not safe.
If you slam your conductor's case down on the table, you're not in a fit state of mind to be in charge of 12,000 feet of train. You're not in a fit state of mind to be in charge of 8 feet of automobile, either.
Rage is not something people can control. If it were, then there would be no rage murders. Most people who kill in anger regret it afterwards.
AEM7
Rage is not something people can control.
To an extent that's true. But rage isn't the major problem... someone who's driving carelessly following an argument usually isn't at that level of psychological impairment, nor is someone who is speeding simply because they're late. "Driving while distracted" - by out-of-control children, loud music, cell phones, or multi-tasking (seen the cars with laptop holders, so you can type and surf the internet while you're driving?) - is the largest cause of accidents out there. Common sense and courtesy goes a long way to making the roads safer for all of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
someone who's driving carelessly following an argument usually isn't at that level of psychological impairment, nor is someone who is speeding simply because they're late.
Ah, now. If people stop and think, that is fine. But people do not stop and think. Most people who are late for an appointment will speed all the way (absent any enforcement), regardless of whether he or she has regained senses or not, or whether he or she is focusing on the driving or not. Same goes for the rage driver who floors the gas because they're pissed off. The second you floor the gas, some guy steps out from behind that parked car, SPLAT.
Distraction or not, these people (speeding because of lateness, or exaggerated acceleration due to anger or habit) cause much more of a danger than a drunk driver. A drunk driver who limps along at 10mph because he realizes that his reaction times are hampered is much safer than an angry/in-a-hurry driver who speeds along at 40mph without even realizing that he won't be able to stop if someone steps out in front of his car.
Of course, some drunk drivers do not limp along at 10mph. But that's another issue. That is a combination of driving under the influence AND poor judgment of road conditions.
AEM7
A drunk driver who limps along at 10mph because he realizes that his reaction times are hampered
BULLSHIT
The drunk driver that killed my friend was doing 80+ in a 40 mph zone!
Fortunately he was killed too.
Elias
>>> The drunk driver that killed my friend was doing 80+ in a 40 mph zone! <<<
And what does that have to do with one who limps along at 10 mph? Admittedly the 10 mph drunks are definitely in the minority of drunk drivers. They are the ones who tend to pass out while waiting for a red light to change to green.
Tom
What matters is that there is ZERO tollerance for drunk drivers!
If you cannot keep drunks from driving any other way, then they must be locked up in jail. This was not this man's first offence, but was one of many, and still he was driving.
The license of such people must be revoked, and if they drive without license, the must be jailed.
It is no great hardship. In big cities they can take a bus or subway, out here they can buy a horse.
End of Arguement.
Elias
Fortunately he was killed too.
I wouldn't say that.
Back in November 1979 I was involved in a head-on collision; the other driver was killed, or more likely was already dead from alcohol poisoning by the time he crossed the center line and hit me (the autopsy showed a .51 BAC). Amazingly, despite the horrendous force of the crash (I was traveling well in excess of the speed limit myself, rushing home from the airport, and his speed was estimated by the police as being in excess of 100 mph), I was able to exit the remains of my rented Buick under my own power. (Seat belts DO save lives!)
This man was not without his faults. He had a history of binge drinking, and that Friday night/Saturday morning he was on another binge. For some reason he had more than usual, and for some reason he climbed behind the wheel of his car to go home, rather than making his usual call to his wife for a ride. By all accounts, though, he was a loving husband and father. The Tuesday after the accident my wife and I attended his funeral, and I saw his grieving widow, inconsolable at the loss of the only man she had ever loved. I saw his two young children, old enough to understand that something was terribly wrong but still too young to fully understand that Daddy wasn't coming home. I saw his mother, a former teacher of mine in my junior high school days, whose worst fears for her son had been realized.
No, what this man needed was help. He did not deserve to die.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Truly it was a tragedy. But we make choices in life, and the driver who struck you had made his choice.
Yes, you can control rage. The mentally impaired receive treatment more often than not if they commit a crime. The enraged gets jail time. What's the reason for that?
Rage is something that one HAS to control by...risk assessment. While it is true that this is not easy, this is not something that can easily be brushed off because of that. Brooklyn has some of the worse drivers known to mankind (particularly Church Avenue from East 18 Street to East 98 Street), but if I ask the bus driver to corner the bad driver so that I may pummel them and they comply, then I take a greater risk than not just letting the person go because:
1) Church Avenue buses have a hard time staying on schedule.
2) If I approach the driver, I risk being pounded.
3) Assuming I pound him, I tie up traffic more by requiring EMS to come get him and a tow truck to get his car.
4) If I don't get out of there fast enough, jail time is a possibility.
Many times, the enraged don't think before they do because they are too ANGRY to do so. I have a nasty temper, so when I am on the verge of flipping out, I make sure to stop and think about the consequences. Losing a check because a family member died is one thing...losing a paycheck because someone took your favorite parking spot and is rubbing it in is DUMB.
Rage management is another stage of maturity. Children can't control their rage very well, so they hit when they are angry. A teenager can control their rage more often than not, but is still subject to lashing out more often than not. When you are an adult, not controlling your rage can cost you your life if you don't control it practically every time or vent it in a constructive manner (i.e. talking to someone). This is NOT a matter of personal preference...it is a matter of personal responsibility.
It also helps to know that you are prone to rage in order to control it. Many of my friends don't even know that I have a bad temper.
But this is not the issue. The issue is not controlling rage. The issue is that drivers in anger who do not realize they are endangering the public by driving in the manner then do poses a much greater threat to public safety than drivers who are slightly tipsy and recognize that they have impaired ability to operate a machine and thus give themselves more safety margin than usual. Sometimes, even this extra safety margin is not enough, but that is a lower risk than someone who isn't giving himself the extra safety margin because they don't even realize they are driving unsafely (by speeding, or by driving while in a rage).
Rage drivers are more dangerous than drunk drivers -- because they fail to realize they are a danger.
AEM7
"The issue is that drivers in anger who do not realize they are endangering the public by driving in the manner then do poses a much greater threat to public safety than drivers who are slightly tipsy and recognize that they have impaired ability to operate a machine and thus give themselves more safety margin than usual."
The trouble with that is that peer reviewed evidence clearly shows that most people DWI (alcohol or marijuana) do not know they are impaired. They are disinhibited, and in fact may be overcconfident in their abilities. The insight you point to does occur, but in a minority of cases (hence the fatality rates on the road). This is why, overall, public safety is best served by limiting everyone to a <.08 blood alcohol level. If you happen to be one of those few people who can drive just fine at 0.08, understand why the limit is there, and show enough maturity and respect for others to abide by it, if only to set a good example for others. After all, if you do not have any alcohol in your system when you're driving, there is no chance at all that alcohol will impair your conduct on the road.
And that next drink can truly wait until you've parked the car. There's no such thing as a drinking emergency.
heh. Fair enuf, well I don't drive (yet) and I don't drink all that often. I had real grief with this if only because I know a lot of rural farming kinds in England that have been drinking and driving for years without incident, and when they claim that they have no other way to get home I can sympathize. Of course, these people never get caught because they are never driving erratically, even if they were drunk. Then there are others who do get into incidents, but in most cases they hurt themselves by ploughing into a tree (after all, this is the English boonies).
My organ teacher at school drove off a cliff while driving drunk. Everyone in the village laughs at him for not knowing his limits. He was banned from driving for life (the cliff incident was his second incident involving DWI).
I agree that drinking and driving in the cities is pointless. The drunk should ride transit. Actually, everybody should ride transit...
AEM7
Drunks should NOT be allowed on transit. This only causes more problems with roudyness on a bus, or attacking someone on a train. The Drunken person should be allowed to sober up at the bar, or driven home by a friend, or taken home in a cab.
This only causes more problems with roudyness on a bus, or attacking someone on a train. The drunken person should be allowed to sober up at the bar, or driven home by a friend, or taken home in a cab.
By your logic, Yankee fans should not be allowed on transit. Recognized members of street gangs should not be allowed on transit. Hell, high school students should not be allowed on transit.
Have you ever been drunk? Usually, roudy people become roudier when drunk. Others, who are not normally roudy anyway, just fall asleep when they are drunk. Like me. Drunks should learn to behave. Many of them can. Drinking is not a social cue for unacceptable behaviour.
Hell, I can post on Subtalk when drunk and my argument are no more incoherent than they usually are.
AEM7
How do High school students figure into this?? High school students talk to each other, and sleep while talking the train home, and I find your lumping of alcoholics and myself into the same category offensive. No, I have never been drunk and have no plans of becoming so, and I base statements about behavioral patterns of a drunk on the observations of people who walk through the 4 train smelling of booze and vomit begging for change, while foaming at the mouth, and the guy in the ferry terminal who follows and yells at people while guzzling whiskey.
You may be a responsible high schooler, but there are a lot of your peers who unfortunately are not. I've observed them too, and I'd usually rather be around a drunk. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Long Island Railroad saves thousands of lives of young suburban revelers partying in Manhattan weekend nights. They're smashed, but LIRR (and its cousins NJT, Metro-North, PATH, subways) is the ultimate designated driver.
I commend your patriotism (Star-Spangled Banner playing in background). You have saved energy, fought air pollution, saved yourself the trouble of a car, promoted social interaction and reduced congestion on the roads.
The Long Island Railroad saves thousands of lives of young suburban revelers partying in Manhattan weekend nights. They're smashed, but LIRR (and its cousins NJT, Metro-North, PATH, subways) is the ultimate designated driver.
You are assuming that these young suburban revelers would be driving into the city - and driving back intoxicated - if no transit were available. That might be true in some cases, but I would imagine that most wouldn't take the risk if there were no transit.
I hope not (but having served in plenty of ER's I can't share your confidence).
DUI is a felony in ND, and you can and will do jail time.
Of course, Iran does not have ANY repeat DUI offenders.
Elias
>>>DUI is a felony in ND, and you can and will do jail time. <<<
That seems rather harsh. Many states require jail time for DUI, but most settle for a few days rather than a year or more.
Unless ND is different than most states a felony conviction rates a year in state prison, not jail time, loss of the right to sit on juries, own a firearm and in some cases the right to vote or hold public office.
Tom
Felony DUI is applied after several offences (about five).
Time in prison can be substantial. But how else can you keep such people off the street?
Elias
See how this discussion has lost its focus? I started off by saying that rage and speeding drivers can be more of a menance than a drunk driver. Some people have criticized drunk drivers, others have related to personal experiences with drunks, and some say rage isn't an issue once people calm down (which is probably true).
But nobody criticized speeding! See, speeding *is* more socially acceptable than driving drunk, even if it can carry similar if not the same risks.
Perhaps this is because people on this board speed and don't like to be hypocrits. That's commendable. But you can still make a decision today not to speed the next time you're in a hurry. That'll make a difference.
Since I don't drive, I never speed. It's pretty difficult to break the speed limit on a bicycle.
I really don't want to suggest mandatory speed limiters for autos, since most people do in fact speed "responsibly" (a 25mph blanket speed limit often over-estimates safety margins rather than under-estimate it). But in many cases, especially in city streets, the 25mph limit is there for a good reason. Be aware of this. If you hit someone at 20mph, there is a nearly 90% chance of the victim surviving. If you hit someone under similar conditions at 30mph, the chances of survival decreases to something like half that value. At 40mph, the chances of survival is very low.
AEM7
Your estimates of speed and survival are not accurate.
One accident in Bismarck occured on a four lane city street. The driver in the left lane stopped to allow a kid to cross the street in the crosswalk. (comendable, but VERY un-New York like). The driver in the right lane made the assumption that he was waiting to turn left, and struck the kid. The driver was doing less than 25 mph, but the kid was just as dead.
Another accident occured in Taylor, on paved but rural town streets.She was a new driver, but she was driving an SUV with a high center of gravity. She was struck boradside and the vehicle flipped over. Neither vehicle was traveling more than 25 mph, indeed a faster speed could not have been possible on these streets. While it is true that they survived the accient, given the damage to the SUV it is quite clear that they might not have.
Yes speed kills, but it is not the only cause of accidents. And an auto-pedestrian accident *could* always be fatal depending on the nature of the impact regardless of the speed. It does not take much speed to fracture a neck.
As for highway speed...
Yes there speed does kill, but any speed over say 45 mph is enough to do that if you run off the road, or otherwise loose control. So 45 or 85 really makes no difference in highway rollovers or other impacts. You car is designed to potect you at speeds of up to say 40 mph, beyond that, you are on your own kiddo. Fatigue while driving is as great a hazzard as DUI, but is less eazsily controlled, people do not normally log their hours while driving, except for truck drivers.
Check your equipment before starting your car, know your road conditions and your route. Not too much different from an airline pilot getting ready for a flight. Speed is a serious issue, less so hout here where we measure distance in hours rather than in miles. The speed on the interstate is 70 mph, and the patrol regurlarly allows 10+ before they will stop you. I keep my car at about 73 mph~ though I have run the ambulance at 98 mph on the interstate for an extended run. Road conditons, vehicle condition, and operator skill are all part of the mix, because anything over 45 or 50 can be a hazzard to the unwary.
I am a bit distressed by the total lack of regard of posted speeds in the east. Highways marked for 55 usually run at 75 with the cops trying to keep up with the traffic. This is dangerous, because there may be somebody trying to do the speed limit and thereby causing a problem on the highway. Legislators out there need to rethink their speed limits.
Elias
BINGO!
Do you know what happens when you drive 65MPH in 65MPH territory on the New York State Thruway? You get cut off REPEATEDLY! When I was learning to drive, my instructor said that I should forget the signs and FLOW with the traffic. Twice on the Thruway, two police vans pulled up on me when I was going 80MPH. I proceeded to get out of the way as police cruise this territory at 95-100MPH looking for speeders:)
Disrupting the traffic flow is much more dangerous than speeding, although speeding in the wrong place (say 35-40MPH on a 25MPH curve) is asking for trouble. The key is not to cut people off or to be cut off. People who weave in and out of traffic and pass on the right lane are dead meat for cops. Up there, they WILL get you.
Do you know what happens when you drive 65MPH in 65MPH territory on the New York State Thruway? You get cut off REPEATEDLY! When I was learning to drive, my instructor said that I should forget the signs and FLOW with the traffic. Twice on the Thruway, two police vans pulled up on me when I was going 80MPH. I proceeded to get out of the way as police cruise this territory at 95-100MPH looking for speeders:)
As I have said, the speed limit out here is 70 with 10 grace. The police cruisers always do 65 mph or less. They kinda dare you to pass them, and many are not up to that challange, I regularly pass them going about 72 or 74 mph without problem. They get to see more vehicles as they pass the officers then they would if they were doing the speed limit, in which case they weould get to see no new cars. Some places they are known to lie low and wait for speeders, most of us who live along this highway, know where they do this, but it is an interstate highway, and so others do not.
The North Dakota Patrol also uses aircraft to time speeders. The officer in the plane (a police major) might be 10 miles or more from the site he is watching, and he times you with an old fashioned stop watch. An officer on the ground will ticket you when you get to him, regardless of what speed you were doing when he stops you.
I have visited with the Patrol at some of the many accidents that I have responded to. All agree that my idea of unmaned radar emitters, perhaps built into to overpasses where they cannot be vandalized would render radar detectors useless, since they would be going off every few miles.
Elias
RE: bicycles.
If you stay close behind another vehicle (car, truck) as a windbreak, and you're in good shape, you could reach 60+ mph on your bike, assuming your gearing will permit it.
Until the truck slams on its brakes...
Mark
True. I was referring to bike racing, though. There are organized races and speed trials where an automobile is assigned to precede the bike around a track.
RE: bicycles.
If you stay close behind another vehicle (car, truck) as a windbreak, and you're in good shape, you could reach 60+ mph on your bike, assuming your gearing will permit it.
Or a LIRR train :)
The US, it can be argued, is an innumerate country. People want safety, but badly misunderstand what their most important risks are. The classic example is the guy who's afraid of radiation hazards because they can cause cancer, but when you meet him he's on an oxygen tank with a cannula at his nose, has emphysema, and is complaining that he can't get his cigarette lit...(and I have met such people).
Or the lady who doesn't think the New York subway is safe enough but thinks nothing of speeding in her SUV, making sharp turns at high speed, and not wearing a seat belt (again, I have met such a person).
Ovaltine.
Have you ever had this stuff?
The mug is round, the jar is round, they should call it Roundtine.
The Z.95 nose filters leave little to be desired...they have no exhaust valve. The hazard appears to be in carbody...insulation of floor heating resistance coils...common sense tells you not to disturb anything. We cannot wear half mask Z.95 double filter half mask respirators anymore...their use requires specific training and certification.
"My furniture is like fucking subway furniture."
Sometimes I feel the same way:
Now it feels like everyone lost their mind.........
OMG! Where can I get a set of those?
["My furniture is like f##king subway furniture."]
You think your furniture is like subway furniture. Look at the seat I have in my basement!!!
I noticed while riding the circle Q that the slants on the diamond Q have to what looks like duct tape behind the ends of the slants. Is or was that a patchwork job, or part of the rebuild of those units? I can definitely see those go first. At least the Modifieds look far better than the slants.
Yup. Seach the archives. I think it's some 3M-like tape to keep water from going in. Not R40 first. R38. I've been one out and through the Rockaways and back into Queens with a floor that's completely soaked. I'm talking like someone was mopping and the huge bucket spilled. I think more was still leaking through the roof as we accelerated and decelerated.
I rode 4430 on a day it was pouring rain and most of the seats were wet and the majority if the passengers on the car were standing.
The R40 Slants are not in the greatest of shape but boy do they fly in the 60 St Tunnel.
#4449 N Sea Beach Local
It didn't rain. Must be water from the A/C. That can be crazy! It starts POURING out of the edges of the panels.
I rode 4430 on a day it was pouring rain and most of the seats were wet and the majority of the passengers on the car were standing.
The R40 Slants are not in the greatest of shape but boy do they fly in the 60 St Tunnel.
#4449 N Sea Beach Local
That is called RCI magic tape.It works on all equipment,It expands the lifespan of the car 10 years LOL.Or at least thats what they said when they used it on redbirds.
Yeah, in that case, Corona is hoping those WF 'birds will ladt them a lifetime! ;-)
I watched an interesting videotape of the above HBO movie which was made in 2000 and starred Jeff Daniels.
It is the story of the Steinmetz HS cheating scandal of 1995 in Chicago. There are numerous scenes with public transit in the background, mostly els, but in one case a CTA bus.
I got the impression from the closing credits that Toronto was where the movie was filmed.
Is there anyone familiar with the movie that could identify those transit scenes as actually being from Chicago?
Listen, this is probably old news for most of you Subtalkers, but I thought the (F) Line was the only line the to get the extra R32's. I was on one couple weeks ago. How long have they been on the (R) Line? Because I've seen R-Trains many times with R46's, until that day.
BTW, this is my very first Subtalk post
Welcome to SubTalk I suppose. The E, F, G, R, V is all based from Jamaica Yard in Queens. Jamaica shops the R32s and R46s. It's normal to see some mixing on all the lines.
Their primary service and spare car situation must be nice now that the L is giving up its old rolling stock for the R143.
He usually posts on BusTalk.
The G must be all R46 due to OPTO. The V has yet to see anything other than an R46 since it started (not counting the tests and all that) although it could run an R32 if it had to.
I remember a post indicating 6 car G Trains soon. So bye bye to OPTO. Before the V came and the G ran 6 car R46s, there would be a 10 car R32 once in a while.
Due to the great financial savings realised to the TA, rest assured that weekend OPTO service on the G is here to stay.
The supt.s are keeping the 32's off their new V line. One of them even confirmed this to me.
What seems to have disappeared completely is the 46's on the E.
R32 has been on the R for quite sometime. Daily, I catch the N to/from School and seen R32 R Train passing by.
Welcome.
I've seen N and R trains using R-32's. R-32 F's are pretty rare but you do see them now and then.
Saw an R32 R train today. 1 motor was 3368 and the other was 3717.
#3368 R Broadway Local
My father told me that R143's are going to be tested on the (M) Line next week. Can anyone please comfirm this for this for me, and give me the info.
-
R143 M-Train, Wyckoff Av. Station (coming soon)
Not tested...operated on the weekends (OPTO).
And it should have started today (September 8, 2002).
David
My father told me that R143's are going to be tested on the (M) Line next week. Can anyone please comfirm this for me, and give me the info.
-
R143 M-Train, Wyckoff Av. Station (coming soon)
Aren't they RUNNING there today?
They were tested last week for service on the M. One guy from 71st Ave Quens is going there today, if he had 8 Hours between jobs. He when from PM to Midnight and the TA had to give him the day off becouse of the 8 hour role.
Robert
Yeah, weekends only. Worked it today; my second OPTO assignment. 10 trips was still a lot easier than 3 on the G!
Maybe it is possible two leftover OPTO trains will be banged together to form a 480' car train for full lenght Mary service....
Eric B, when did you work the G? Was it any time lease pick.
Robert
Last Monday (Labor Day) I was recently qualified, (to begin this pick) so after someone resumed on the J (a three tripper--I deaded getting the four trippers again as I did on an earlier Monday holiday), I was sent down there even though the new pick hadn't started.
I was off on Labor Day. So I guess I missed you.
Robert
It's the new style, haven't you seen it?
Oh Shit, That's a true slant, LOL!
Train meets nutty professor's foot....
DAMMMMMMMMMMMMM! Somebody must have try to chew up that thing.
You should see what 3991 looked like after that "yard kiss" ...
Her picture's out there too. Looks like the worm in MIB II got it.
Does anyone know exactly how that accident happened? My guess is that something hit #3991 while stationary, since it was badly crushed at both ends, with enough force to ruin #3990's blind end too.
wayne
From the damage, it must have been a Multi. :)
You mean a D-Type, no? Think the MS (Multi) were too light for that kind of a wreck
wayne
Yep, that's what I meant ... brain cramp. :)
It certainly looks as though a Triplex or BMT standard had slammed into it.
It certainly looks as though a Triplex or BMT standard had slammed into it.
OTOH Triplexes minded their own business. The standards were more temperamental and would put up their dukes in a heartbeat.
That had to be some impact, perhaps even registering on the Richter scale. I heard from some sources that this accident happened in one of the yards. Perhaps a piece of yard equipment, like a locomotive, ran into the trainset.
There was a locomotive-vs-R22 accident in the 70s at Morris Park IRT, in which R22 #7602 suffered a completely cleaned clock, flat as a pancake.
wayne
That 1955 Triplex collision should be the measuring stick all other collisions are compared to.
Here we go again, talking about subway demolition derbies.:)
How long until they start using them on the G?
It looks like the blind end to me. If so, it's mate also got creamed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wow, that IS strange. I suspect it was being moved around a yard with the blind end facing out....
Funny thing is, I have seen more than this car with this same exact sort of damage.
Could it be someone switching cars around the yard doesn't know where their rear end is when pushing???
it did
Ouch!!
DOUBLE OUCH! Looks like it got hit by a BMT Standard.
wayne
My feelings exactly.
You certainly can tell that the mate to R-38 #3990 was creamed thoroughly.
#3 West End Jeff
So that's where Lindsay got the idea for the R40S.
Geez, I feel sorry for that poor car...
Yikes! How long ago was this picture taken? The wrecked one looks like it is rebuilt since it has a silver door instead of it painted blue like the ones next to it. -Nick
thats an R38... the ones next to it are R32/as
Were these cars fixed and returned to service or were they sent to the scrapper?
#3978 A 8 Ave Express
3990-3991 are long gone.
David
The car is pre-GOH. The door is blue. It just looks silver because of the sun hitting it.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nope.
It's a 38.
The fluting only goes half way up, and it has the thin blue band at the waist line.
Elias
I am not argueing the fact that it was or wasn't a 38, but the door IS blue.
Peace,
ANDEE
no.. the door isnt blue... no R38s got the blue doors, only 32s,34s,and 42s did
no.. the door isnt blue... no R38s got the blue doors, only 32s,34s,and 42s did
I don't know about the R38's, but the R40 slants and 40M's also did have blue doors in the mid/late 80's before their GO.
you sure about the slants???(I dont know either way) I agree with you about the R40M though
ok... i saw pictures of the slants just now... but when were they done?? mid 70s??? I dont think many were done... probably just a few.
also no R38s would have been painted by 1971, when the accident happened(anyway you can see that its mate 3991 did NOT have blue painted doors when the accident occored)
The R32's, R40's, and R42's (and I also thought the R38's) all got their blue doors back in the mid 80's just before their rebuilds, around the time they were trying to make all the trains grafitti free.
32s came with them
Yes, but during the grafitti era, I think they lost them to silver, to have blue return again in the mid 80's. As for the slant R40's, If you are talking "originally", I don't think the R40's had blue doors originally.
No, the doors on the R-40s (both flavors) and R-42s were unpainted on the outside and had the same light blue fnish on the inside as on the R-32s, WF R-36s, and R-38s.
Not 100%, but 98% sure. I used to ride the M everyday in the mid 80's when in HS and am almost positive that I remember riding the R40 slants with blue doors. I wasn't really a "subfan" back then, and never took pictures, but I seem to remember it.
Next time you're watching The French Connection, observe the R-42s in the chase sequence and you'll see how they originally looked. No paint on the door exteriors. The stoorm doors had dark blue exteriors on the A ends and unpainted exteriors on the B ends. You can see that in the movie, too.
Thanks, I'll have to pull the movie out one evening. I do remember the "aqua-blue" seats on them in the late 70's-early 80's, but I never seen them with that color interior doors. They were already orange (and grafittied) the way they were when I remember first seeing/riding them.
I get a kick out of watching the R-17's in that film. Really takes me back. Did the museum save 6609 specifically because it was in that movie?
I don't believe so. IIRC 6609 had some sort of experiment done to it, so that's probably why they saved it.
Say, I didn't realize that 6762, the last car on the first train visible in the original Pelham 1-2-3, is still with us. It's work car RD339.
Wow, thanks for that info. Wonder how much longer RD399 will still be in existence? Saw RD-325 a couple of weeks ago (wished I had my camera) at Queensboro Plaza. It still had its pole mounted fans!
Correction, RD-339.
I don't know, maybe I'm going crazy, but that end door on the 38 sure looks blue to me.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nope, they're both scrapped. #4000 and 4001 are scrapped too; involved in a different accident.
wayne
It looks like that is the "Blind" end of the car. It then should be called a "wrong" ended Slant R-38.
#3 West End Jeff
I think it got a hell of a facelift!! lol :-)
Hey What are your Home Stations? Mines is IND (A) & (C) Lines Nostrand Ave., IRT (1) Line - Nostrand Ave., BMT (Shuttle) Line - Park Pl., LIRR - Flatbush Branch, Nostrand Ave.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
IND - B 86st (far away)
IRT - 1 86st (use this all the time, closest)
LIRR - 34st Penn Station
LIRR is the closest to me, 2 blocks away. And the IND Station is my main use.
saME WITH ME--- ALSO 53/LEX
BMT: Brighton Beach
'nuff said.
1946 - 1965 Church Avenue, Brighton Beach Line
1965 - 1967 Newkirk Avenue, Brighton Line / Ditmas Avenue, Culver Line
1967 Cortelyou Road, Brighton Beach Line
1967 - 1968 Augusta Union Station, Augusta, Georgia
1968 Trenton Station, Penn-Central
1968 - 1969 Odenton, MD, Penn-Central
1969 - 1972 Avenue U, Brighton Line
1972 - Present Babylon, LIRR
But in my heart, Church Avenue, Brighton Beach Line.
(6) Castle Hill Avenue station, or Castle Hill Avenue on the platform wall, or <6> Castle Hill Avenue Next on the interior LED display, or C Hill on the platform pillars, or Train station!!! on the busses, or the one with the MVM's which work only 3 days after being fixed, or the one with the Pedro espada campaign people who insist on standing on the stairs ( from the street) handing out posters which are defiantly tossed down onto the street and continue to harass you by talking to you ( While unnessarily congesting the small Mezzazine we have) and go as far as COVERING a turnstile with posters ( rendering it useless) during the morning the morning rush, and as a result get told off by people getting really pissed their traffic nightmare causing antics. The station gets al least 160 people dropped off every 6 minutes by bus, countless others who walk, and only 2 functioning turnstiles cause of a bloody campaign. Sorry about the rant, but I had to get it off my chest cause at least 5 trains went through the station before I got from the bottom of the stairs to the platform, and the doctor's appointment which I waited 3 months for was canceled ( yes, we got there that late). This is the station I call home/ HELL.
Well it depends My home staion is 18the ave N or F lines.But the staion I really consider my home station Cypress ave on the 6 Spent Most of my youth in the Late 80's at that station.
Let see, I live in Chinatown Manhattan. You can come vistit me through the following alternative
East Broadway (F)
Grand Street (S)*
Bowery Street J M Z*
Canal Street J M N Q R W 4 6
* I'm very close the station
Or By Bus M103 M15.
It was 77th Street (R train). Now it's Pittsburgh (Amtrak).
That's my current home station (77th, that is....).
Rocky Mount, North Carolina (Amtrak) when I'm home, Little Silver (NJT) when I'm in New Jersey.
Poughkeepsie, New York (New York Central) when I was a youngster, Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania (Lackawanna) during the summers of my youth.
Gracia and Provenza when I lived in Barcelona.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anderson/Woburn on the MBTA Lowell Commuter Rail.
Before that...
Kingsbridge Road (D) 0-6
Howard Beach (HH) 6-12
Albertson (Oyster Bay LIRR) 12-17
Kendall MIT (MBTA Red Line) 17-21
Harvard (MBTA Red Line) 21-28
Todd where abouts in Kingsbridge did you live? I was on W 195, between Sedgewick and Webb, when redbirds were REALLY red.
Hi H,
That would be 2850 Webb Avenue. Circa the early 60s.... dad worked at the Bronx VA Hospital. On Sundays he would take me to Coney Island for a cheap day out while Mom was home taking care of baby brother. Of course, we stood at the Rail Fan Window all the way there and back.
We alternated Concourse and Jermome lines for the fun of it.
I wish there had been Slant 40s then so he didn't have to lift me up!
p.s. Any PATH reports yet?
Your kidding me lad! I was on W 195 and Webb, that mansion on the NW corner, if you'd call it that. I'm trying to recall how many times I pulled that fire alarm box, house was next to I think 2755 on Webb. Small world, neighboorhood is a little cleaner, no more burned out houses and grafitti last I drove by. PATH to success, broke in on a small handfull of Ks, most PA3s are MOWs by now, and looking forward to road breakin coming up by early next year. Still looking for that trip up there.
40th-Lowery IRT (7)
My Home Stations are Bay Shore on the Montauk Brach of the LIRR (closest to me) and Deer Park Station on the Ronkonkoma Line (further away from me).
Adam
Well, up until last week it was Berwyn on the CTA Red Line. Now it's Collingswood on the PATCO line.
However, when I go to New York City, I'd have to consider my home stop Hamilton on NJ Transit. Within the city itself, it would most likely be 34th/Penn Station on the IRT.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
When I'm in Chicago at my aunt's, it's Bryn Mawr, one stop beyond Berwyn on the Red Line.
In Denver, both the Littleton/Mineral and Littleton Downtown light rail stops are equidistant from where I live - five miles. However, I usually drive up to Englewood and board there. Saves me $$$ by paying local fare as opposed to express. In Denver, the terms "Local" and "Express" have nothing to do with skipping stations. As long as you stay in the same fare zone, you can pay local fare. It's only when you cross the fare zone boundary - Hampden Ave. just south of Englewood station - that you have to pay express fare.
In New York, when I was a Saturday commuter from Jersey, my "home station" was 42nd St. by the Port Authority Bus Terminal. When I started coming out once a year in October, it varied depending on where my sister lived. In 1984, it was 33rd St. From 1985 to 1991 it was Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens. From 1992 to 1995 it was 8th St. or Astor Place, although I'd walk to Union Square to catch an express. Since 1996, it's been W. 4th St., although I'll still walk to Union Square if I'm headed to lower Manhattan or Brooklyn.
Just forgot to add this tid bit before i moved out to Long Island my home station was Main Street Flushing on the 7.
Sheepshead Bay on the Brighton Line
elizbeth on the nec or maplewood on the m&e, will be union on ratian line when it opens
right now i still live with my parents at 19. I am near ROSEDALE on the LIRR, also near the Q84 bus which leads me to Jamaica Center with the E,J, and Z trains. i can also take the Q77 to 179 for the F.
Now it's Rockville Centre on the LIRR.
In the past it has been:
81st/CPW
59th/Columbus Circle
86th/Lex
77th/Lex
Watchung Ave (NJT)
Little Falls (NJT)
Metropark (NJT)
Mott Ave / Far Rock
Long Beach (LIRR)
Oceanside (LIRR)
I guess I haven't really stayed in one place for too long...
CG
Main Street-Flushing; Queens terminal of the 7 joint IRT/BMT line.
Albany-Rennselaer on Amtrak now, at home it's 63rd Drive IND.
71st Avenue/Continental Ave (E)(F)(V)(G)(R)
Forest Hills LIRR
Main Street Flushing (7)<7> and LIRR
I used to have relatives in Forest Hills, I know the subway station and neighborhood very well. -Nick
Westport/Saugatuck (MNRR New Haven Line).
When I'm visiting relatives in NYC:
Greenpoint Ave. (G)
-Nick
#2 & #5 @ Simpson St or Freeman St Station or #6 @ Whitlock St Station for 10 years.
David J
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
When I'm home with the in-laws, it's Bayside on the Port Washington Branch.
In Philly, it's Tulpehocken Station on the R8-Chestnut Hill West Regional Rail line or Germantown on the R7-Chestnut Hill East line.
Here are my home stations:
Here's my primary station -- the entrance I prefer using, on the rare occasion that it's open:
And these are my secondary and tertiary stations, in no particular order:
Where are the Sea Beach stations? I thought you were an expert on the N Train.
An expert? No, I just enjoy riding the line. I've never lived in Brooklyn.
From my year birth 1986 to 1999 my home stop was 137 Street-City College on the 1/9 lines & from 1999 to now is 207 Street on the A line. Thats all.
West Side IRT (2)/Lexington IRT (5)--3rd Avenue-149th Street
Lexington IRT (6)--149th Street )(@ Southern Blvd)
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"I live near the R142/R142A lines"
North Conduit Avenue (A) Far Rockaway Line since 1978 before from 75 to 78 it was 80th street Hudson, (A)line.
My home station is Sea Cliff on the LIRR Oyster Bay line. Not that I use it much with a train only every 2 or 3 hours!
I use the 7 train far more often even though it's about a 75 minute bus ride on the N21 bus, which runs more or less hourly.
1960-1994: Astoria Blvd. (RR, then N, now N/W)
1994-1995: Fresh Pond Rd. (M)
1995-present: Croton Falls (Metro-North Harlem line)
In Atlanta, my stations went in this order:
1. Lindbergh Center
2. Chammblee
3. Doraville (just becasue it became the closest station to me when it opened)
4. Midtown (current)
When I live(d)* in Sao Paulo,
1. Some crappy-ass bus to the Santo Andre train station. but I actually never did that.
2. When the trolley bus system opened around 1988, it became Lauro Gomez. After riding the trolley bus, I have the choice of either using Santo Andre or Jabaquara.
*- I practically lived there from when I was born until I was about three, I stayed the vast majority of the year there even though I was born in Atlanta. When I was about 5 until 12.I stayed down there three months out of the year. Now, I just go for one or two weeks when I'm on school vaction.
NYC...
7th Avenue (when it was D,M,QB)
Grand Army Plaza (2.3)
Atlanta
Arts Center (when it finally opened)
Lindbergh Ctr
Boston
(almost everywhere on the "B" Line)
St. Mary's Street
Brookline Village
San Bruno
Colma (now home to the Dublin-Pleasanton line!)
From 1955 to 1955, If my parents took me by baby carriage, it would have been Junction Blvd-7 line.
From 1959 to 1980, Officially it was again Junction Blvd. More times than not it was 90 Street.
From 1980 to 1982, Depending which way the next bus came it was either Main Street or Union Turnpike.
From 1982 to 1984, Officially it was Aqueduct-North Conduit-A line. But after I found out there were no stores in the area, I'd use Rockaway Blvd.
From 1984 to present day, Officially Lefferts Blvd. I go there for paychecks and Board Reports. But I usually use 111 Street-Greenwood to/from work. Sometimes I take the bus to get on the train at Union Turnpike.
Elmhurst on the Metra UPRR West line (actually live a bit closer to the Berkeley station, but more trains stop at Elmhurst and all the trains from Berkeley are locals). That's Chicago area (in case you haven't already figured that out).
Growing up in Brooklyn in the 50s and 60s, it was Neck Rd. on the Brighton line.
-- Ed Sachs
Hey, cool, my grandparents lived very close to Berkley Station, my last few times I was at their house before they moved, my parents jugded I was old enough to walk down there and do some railfanning at Proviso yard without getting carried off by a 'wierdo' or being hit by a car on St Charles Rd.
Wish I still lived out there, has UP cracked down on people going into the Engine house area down by Wolf and Lake? I remember a coupla times my uncle drove me right into the yard to see the then new SD70M lease units. C&NW never bothered us, so long as we stayed in the car and gave a respectable distance to the engines.
Here's the closest homw stations to me.
Union Turnpike E and F Lines(3 1/2 Blocks)Van Wyck Blvd F Line(E on Weekends)(1 VERRY VERRY VERRY LONG Blocks)
Kew Gardens LIRR(2 Blocks)
Home Station
Crescent St (J/Z). One block away
Euclid Av (A/C). 6 Blocks Away
Jamaica Sta.(LIRR) 8 Stops on the J/Z
I'm at Richardton, on the old Northern Pacific mainline.
But now the closest station (that takes passengers) is at Minot on the old Great Northern mainline. (About a three hour drive to the station.)
Ok Ok.... when I lived in New York:
Merrick on the LIRR
or when I lived in Manhattan: 103rd Street on the Broadway Line.
or when I lived in Brooklyn (at Bergen and Bond) the (F) at Bergen street was the closest, but I prefered the (QB) at DeKalb or the (N) at Pacific. The BMT was always a much better lion in brooklyn than the IND.
Elias
179th Street from 1963-1998.
Main Street & Bayside LIRR from 1998-present.
179th Street from 1963-1998.
Main Street IRT & Bayside LIRR from 1998-present.
Harrison (PATH) or Arlington (NJT)-1992
Rahway (NJT) or Woodbridge (NJT) -1993-5
Linden (NJT) - 1995-8
South Amboy (NJT) -1995-hopefully forever
Peter the Pole
1982-1985: Wynnefield on the R6 Cynwyd Line (yes, born and raised in Philly!)
1985-1987: Angora on the R3 Media/Elwyn line
1987-1989: Not really close to anything. Closest were Overbrook on the R5 Malvern/Thorndale line, and 63rd Street on the Market-Frankford, but both were about a mile away.
1989-1997: Closest would be Lansdowne Avenue on the 101/102 trolley lines; if trolleys don't count, then it'd be 69th Street Terminal itself (but since that runs trolleys itself, they should count, especially if they have ROW and stations)
April-June, 1997: 5th Street and 8th Street on the Market-Frankford Line, 8th Street also counting for the PATCO and the Broad-Ridge Spur; Market East for all the Regional Rail Lines
1997-current: Fernwood on the R3 Media/Elwyn line (ironic that I end up near the train I'd lived near when my folks split up)
Before I left NYC it was Bedford Pk Blvd IND, Tremont Ave, IND and E Tremont Ave/West Farms Sq IRT.
Now it's Silver Spring on WMATA's Red Line.
Wayne
Ahh... just down from my daughter's (Glenmont).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lived in East Meadow from birth (8/28/59) to 2/2/63. My mother said if she needed to go into Queens or Manhattan, it was via bus to Hempstead LIRR. By car, we were equidistant to Merrick and Bellmore.
Since that time, undeniably MAIN STREET- FLUSHING! LAST STOP! TAKE ALL YOUR TRASH AND PERSONAL BELONGINGS WITH YOU! From '63 to '83, our house in Whitestone was served by two (very unreliable) TA bus routes to the above station seven days a week and to 179th-Jamaica Mon-Sat. LIRR was Flushing Main Street by bus, or a mile away by car or foot to Broadway.
From '83 to '89 in College Point. One-seat bus service to Flushing, Parsons/Hillside- and for the last few months, Jamaica Center.
Since '89, one mile/twenty-minute walk to Main Street; one-seat bus service there and to Briarwood, both Sutphins, Jamaica LIRR, and in the other direction, Parkchester and Tremont/Boston.
Pelham Bay Park
71/Continental Avenue - E F G R V
Culver: Av I
Brighton: Newkirk, Av H, Av J
Rockaway: Beach 36, then Beach 25
LIRR: Parkville Junction, Bay Ridge Branch
Both on the Brighton Line:
Brighton Beach 1962 - 1973
Kings Highway (1973 - 1984) though my parents still live in the same house so I guess I could say "the present")
Poughkeepsie (MNRR) 1984 - 1987
Suffern (MNRR / NJ Transit) 1987 - present
--Mark
These were my home stations while I lived in NYC.
2001: D/Q - Kings Highway and then Q - Avenue J
2002: 1 - 191 St
--Brian
Jamaica/179th Street IND (F)
Queens Village or Bayside LIRR
:-) Andrew
I should add that growing up, the LIRR Hicksville station was my home station.
...and the Levittown Pkwy/Newbridge Road (NY 106) stop on the N49 and N50 busses.
:-) Andrew
Forest Parkway (I refuse to use the 85th St designation) on the J.
Sometimes, I use the 88th St. station on the A.
Bedford Park Blvd. IND B/D
Bedford Park Blvd. IRT 4
Botanical Garden MNRR
Peace,
ANDEE
1977-1998: Utica Ave IRT: first it was the 2,4,5 trains then 3,4.
1998- : Everybody's favorite hangout spot: Junius St/Pennsylvania Ave on the 3 then 1 and beginning Sunday, 3 again. Livonia Ave on the L.
Yeah, you have the choice of A or B Division in your 'hood.
All I have is the A...:(
Yeah, you have the choice of A or B Division in your 'hood.
All I have is the A (Flatbush Ave 2/5)...:(
You have my sympathies.
Peace,
ANDEE
Screw him!!!! :):) If he walk six to eight blocks over he'll have a B division line as well. :):)
LOL! Behave!
-Stef
Stef, it's more like the 'Austin Powers' line: "Ohhh, behaaaave!" LOL!
Well, this means WAR! The good ol' days of the fights between IRT vs. BMT are back...
Mike, don't forget I have the home-team advantage (BMT) :)
I live in central Florida now. They don't believe in public transportation down here. :-(
When I lived in NY it was either 46th St or Northern Blvd on the G/R (and now the V)
242 St-Bway
OK, here are mine:
1953-69: California & Powell cable car
1973-75: 23/8 or 14/8 or 18/7.
1975-78: 23/8
1978-80: Prince/Bway or Spring/6 or Bway-Lafayette
1980-82: 33/PAS or Herald Sq
1982-84: Beacon MNRR (Newburgh)
1984-86: Stamford MNRR
1986-87: 25 Av or Bay Pky (West End)
1987-88: 75 Av or 71 Av
1988-92: Back Bay/South End
1992- : Dupont Circle
1997-present: Medford on the LIRR.
Pre-1997: Waterbury on Metro-North.
Work station:
July 2000-present: Houston Street 1/9.
March 1994 to July 2000: Union Square.
From 1965-1969: Burnside Avenue, IRT Jerome Avenue line, Bronx.
From 1970-1995: Union Turnpike, IND Queens line, Queens.
From 1995-2000: 71st-Continental Ave's, IND Queens line, Queens.
From 2001-present: Cedarhurst, LIRR Far Rockaway line.
Seneca Av. (Myrtle Wyckoff)
In the past
Roosevelt Island
Ave. H (Newkirk)
Flatbush Ave.
Kingston Ave. IRT (IND)
Newkirk, BMT (IRT) (people in the Flatbush corridor north of Newkirk between these lines don't realize that Beverly is closer on both lines, due to the slanted grid of the streets. But Newkirk on the Brighton is popular because it is express. Most of my childhood traveling, however, was on weekends, and it was toward the end i realized that Cortelyou was closer, and Beverly yet still closer. Now a lot of people in my old neighborhood take the B-41 LTD to Prospect Pk. Only they have to go to Foster to get it.)
Hmm -
1970-1995 Kings Highway (Brighton Line)
1995-1996 Bedford Ave (Canarsie Line)
1996-1999 77 Street. (4th Ave Line)
1999 - Beacon (Metro North Hudson Line)
2000 - Trenton (NJ Transit NE Corridor)
2001 - 7th Avenue (F Train)
2001- South Norwalk (Metro North New Haven Line)
Before Uncle Sam's Yacht club got me:
207th Street on the A
215th Street on the 1
Steve Loitsch
Pelham Bay on the 6
242nd on the 1/9
(or)
Ossining MNRR (to)
225th on the 9
Hmm..at least the N has rights to the 4th Ave express tracks, doesn't have to go local anymore...according to the MTA website, it will no longer be stopping at any of the local stops...so I wonder what time the last train will be leaving Astoria at night...
Well, here is some consolation:
You can more or less always count on an N being at Pacific...instead of waiting and waiting and waiting...I waited 19 minutes for an N at Prince Street at 5 PM rush hour...I wasn't pleased.
You can take any IRT from Manhattan and stroll over to the N that should be waiting...
You'll have a choice of a seat...
Shuttles adhere to a schedule better...
The N wouldn't serve those 4th Ave local stops: Sorry, I hated them...some of the people who got on/off were just the scum of the earth...
Draw your own conclusions...
True, the N now runs full time on the express tracks in Brooklyn. But the R32s and R40s that I saw on today's N trains don't have Pacific Street on their rollsigns. So the north terminal is "Shuttle."
Some N's were terminating at 36 St today....
I wonder how Sea Beach Fred feels about his beloved N line being reduced to a Brooklyn shuttle nights and weekends. I remember when the N was in its glory running over the 4th Avenue Express, Manhattan Bridge, and Broadway Express tracks. Now it's a mere shell of what it used to be.
*sigh*
Fred is just sick about it. It's only temporary, though. At least that's what we'd like to believe.
We'll he's pissed. not only N service being reduced, it won't run via Bridge.
The N being taken off the MannyB is temporary too! Just a very long temporary!
So the R is the only train serving those local stops south of 36th? How's the waiting on that?
Well friday and Saturday I had the pleasure of being the Restricted Plat C/R for Coney Island.It was a pleasure because of all the activity. Watching them Dismantle the womens locker room,Within 15 minutes there was not 1 locker left up there.Watching them take apart the pool tables piece by piece and Numbering them to remember how to put them back together.Finding stuff that most dispatchers never knew existed,3 boxes of flashlights seems they were lost in August of 01,so they exchanged them yesterday. Figure out how peopleHIDall that junk in their lockers .I mean wow talk about collectors paradise LOL,there was some stuff that people drool over ,Like a quick charge brake handle It was hollow weighed like 7 oz never seen anything like that or an orignal Maryln Monroe Poster from the 60's LoL.And Keys My god I personally added 15 keys to my collection.But it did feel weird to watch them Rope off the Q platform at 1am.Stillwell Might of been a Urine smelling rat infested dump,but i never thought I would see them strip it down and get it ready to be torn down. The Magic day is October 5 thats when only the steel structure W plat will be left. P.S. The bonus was watching people who forgot to empty there lockers Flip out.
Do you know if they intend to keep the public bathroom open while all this is going on? They close the ones on the Boardwalk most of the year. It's a long way to go if you can't "go" while you're there!!
They should tear those bathrooms down.
Disgusting.... In the men's section, mosquitos and a rather disturbing piece of marker vandalism... You guys know what I mean!!
Gotta take a picture of that handle and post it one of these days. I remember a small, thin metal one that was square shaped for yard work. Was this one more roundish like the R handle?
Glad to see they're finally getting on with it, be nice to see Stillwell back on the railroad some day.
When the N, F, and Q platforms get done in Spring 2004, will the W or B trains (when it returns to Brooklyn) get pushed back to Bay Pkwy. in order to get its platform and track reconstructed?
When the N, F, and Q platforms get done in Spring 2004, will the W or B trains (when it returns to Brooklyn) get pushed back to Bay Pkwy. in order to get its platform and track reconstructed?
My understanding is that the W will hop around Stillwell Avenue, using whatever platform is available, while the F, Q, and N are not there. Cutting back to Bay Parkway, therefore, should not be necessary (not for that reason, anyway), even after the other services return to Stillwell.
David
The current map on the TA website (I haven't seen the print map yet) shows the wheelchair symbol at Stillwell. Only the W platform is accessible. Do you know if the online map will be updated when the W moves to a different platform? It won't be accessible then unless the ADA work on that platform has already been completed.
Does the print map have the wheelchair symbol? It's a bit harder to update a print map.
Good point. I don't have an answer, but if I get one I will post it.
I haven't seen the September print map...I've got a September copy of "The Map" on my desk in the office, but not the subway-only map.
David
In 1994, while the steel structure at the other end was being replaced, the West End line used the Sea Beach platform for over 6 months.
Hey Selkirk Guess what I got a hold of an orignal Hammer Head Brake Handle.Thewy stopped giving those out in the Early 60's.Also Aquired Another Brake handle a quick Charger Small and round Barely big enough for two fingers to grab it.Guy who gave it to me called it a yard special.
Hammerhead? Heh. You mean to tell me that room ain't been swept since the STANDARDS were in town? I *am* impressed! Never saw the junior, would love to see a picture of it. For the Arnines, you could just top-charge with the standard R handle while you walked your train, checked breakers and diddled your signs. I'd get a real kick out of seeing a picture of the "toy" either here or privately. I knew they were out there but don't remember those. Maybe I did spot one and just don't remember.
First of all, I'll just say that my new job here in New Jersey is going well so far. Wish me luck in hoping that keeps up.
Today I woke up around 9:30 AM, and for the first time in about two weeks, found myself bored. It was actually a very nice feeling: No stress, no worries. In fact, later on in the day I would realize this is probably the most stress-free I've been in many years, and certainly the past few months. I've got a nice place to live, I've got a decent-paying job that I don't hate, I've left all my old emotional baggage behind in Chicago, today is a beautiful day, and I've got the use of the company car over the weekend. What to do, what to do...
I decided to spend the day in New York City. I suddenly realized that the coolest thing about living in New Jersey is that I can now do that. I can be in NYC within a couple hours whenever I damn feel like it. How cool is that? Before, I had to make plane and hotel reservations two weeks in advance, and then go through the ordeal of actually getting to New York from 800 miles away. Those days are now over, my friends.
After grabbing a bagel and some coffee in Collingswood, I drove up I-295 to Hamilton, where I caught a NJT train to NYC Penn Station. The ride into the city was uneventful, and I arrived around lunchtime. As I stood on the IRT subway platform at 34th Street, a huge grin spread across my face when I realized where I was. Other cities may come close, but no city has that certain vibe that New York City has.
I took a (3) train up to 96th Street, from where I walked up Broadway to Columbia University and poked around a bit before I grabbed a bite for lunch at a deli and headed over to the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. It had been over three years since my last visit to the Cathedral, so it certainly felt good to be back. As an architecture student, the Cathedral seems to stike a very deep chord in me. The immense building is still under construction -- still only about 2/3 complete -- and I think there's something very sacred in the art of building. Sort of a metaphor for God's unfinished work, I suppose.
I just happened to wander in just as a worship service was getting started, so I got a service bulletin and found a seat. It seemed like the right thing to do. Turns out the worship service was a special service in honor of the 50th anniversary of the Community of the Holy Spirit, a monastic order of women within the Episcopal Church that is based in the Upper West Side. Among the celebrants were two bishops of the Diocese of New York, so this was obviously a pretty big affair. The worship service and Eucharist were beautiful, combining the best of high-church Anglicanism with the Cathedral's celebration of different cultures and mission for social justice. I only wish there was a church like this closer to Philadelphia, but the Cathedral of St. John the Divine is obviously one-of-a-kind. If nothing else, it certainly confirmed my decision to join an Episcopal church here. (My religious background is primarily Presbyterian.) During the reception after the mass, I was even able to chat a bit with each of the bishops. They seem like nice guys.
Leaving the Cathedral, I boarded a very crowded southbound (1) train at 110th, and then transferred to a nearly-empty (3) express train at 96th to Times Square. From there I walked over to Rockefeller Center and up Fifth Avenue a few blocks. By now it was getting later in the day, so I decided to head down to Coney Island and have some fun before going home. I boarded a southbound (F) train at 57th Street, and the ride was uneventful until we got to West 8th. At West 8th, the train stood in the station for an incredibly long period of time with no anouncement. After a bit of waiting, I decided to just leave the train and walk the rest of the way to Stillwell. However, a (Q) train rumbled in on the track above, so I dashed up the steps and took that train the rest of the way to Coney Island.
Once at Coney Island, I had a fine dinner at Nathan's, and then spent the next couple hours wandering around the place, riding the Wonder Wheel and the Cyclone in the process. I also swung by the B&B Carousell and was pleased to see it in operation. What a gem that is. Once again, it was nice to see Coney Island full of life, and to feel like a kid again for a couple hours.
Now the sun was down and it was getting late, so I headed over to Stillwell to grab a (Q) train back into Manhattan. It occurred to me that this was the last day for (Q) and (F) service to Stillwell for the next two years, and my (Q) train was probably one of the last ones to leave the station until 2004. Crews were already installing updated signage at Stillwell as I passed through the turnstiles.
The trip on the Brighton Line was relaxed and uneventful, and the ride across the bridge was a nice treat. It had probably been about two years since the last time I had ridden across the Manhattan Bridge, and that was on the north track. Once in Manhattan, the (Q) train took the Broadway express track. In the vincinity of Prince Street or thereabouts, we came alongside a northbound (R) train on the local track, and our two trains ran side-by-side for a short period. Sitting directly alongside my window on the (R) train was a rather attractive young lady who smiled at me and blew me a kiss before her train slowed down to make the next local stop.
So I did the only natural and proper thing. I jumped up and pulled the cord, pried the door open, and climbed across the tracks and boarded the (R) train and made passionate love to her right then and there.
Okay, I didn't do that. But that sounds much more interesting than, "I awkwardly smiled back and briefly debated getting off my train at Union Square and waiting for her train to show up in hopes that she'd still be on board, assuming I could even figure out which car she was in."
I got off at 34th Street, and walked from there over to Penn Station where I waited for the NJT 10:14 Trenton local. They eventually announced our track number and pointed out that both the east and west gates would be boarding. So myself and about a million other people headed down through the east gate, only to be met by a train with closed doors. After what seemed like a lot of waiting, we finally relaized that the front half of the train was boarding, and the rear half was closed despite the announcement to the contrary. So we all rushed up to the front of the train and managed to squeeze ourselves on board. I continued walking up to the front car and by some miracle, found myself a decent window seat with no screaming infants within earshot. The train was held at Newark Penn for a few minutes while an unruly passenger was removed by the police, and the rest of the trip was uneventful. I was back home in Collingswood within two hours.
Unfortunately I don' have any photos to share, as I was determined not to be burdened by carrying around any cameras or bags.
Like I said, I'm still getting used to the idea of being able to head off to NYC on a whim like that. Up until now it may as well have been in a foreign country. I'm looking forward to many happy returns.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
You mean you didn't actually wait for her train to show up?
The nice thing about NY is that you'll meet another one (or two, or three) next week...
>>>>You mean you didn't actually wait for her train to show up?
The nice thing about NY is that you'll meet another one (or two, or three) next week...<<<
Really?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey, Dave....good for you! Today I'm gonna be in Coney Island! How about that!
BTW, you wouldn't have known it, but you might've had fellow SubTalker Mark W. as your Conductor on the Q. It also happenned to be his last day as C/R for NYCT.
>>>>So myself and about a million other people
headed down through the east gate, only to be met by a train with closed doors. After what
seemed like a lot of waiting, we finally relaized that the front half of the train was boarding,
and the rear half was closed despite the announcement to the contrary.<<<
Ah, that gambit is also employed by the Long Island Rail Road. Can't have the train personnel having to walk the ENTIRE length of the train to collect fares!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Mr. Walsh, obviously, you've never worked for a commuter railroad. There is more than one reason that an 8 or 10 car train is not fully open when there are only 3 or 400 passengers. Each car seats about 120 people. Technically, you can get away with 4 cars being open in a case like that, but personally, I like spreading people out, there's less tension and less potential for altercations. Anyway, aside from that, there are a few other factors:
1) Amount of crew members on the train: If there is only 2 or 3 members, and 10 cars open, you do the math. And even under "normal" conditions where there might be 6 or 7 crew members, there are still low lifes who wander from car to car trying to avoid to pay the fare.
2) Length Of Platforms: Aside from the fact that the brakeman has to be in proper position to open the doors (even though, according to your logic, you would rather see him constantly run through 4 or 5 cars to collect fares and lift seat checks), the platforms don't always fit a full train. Which means you have to have passengers walk up or walk back to exit. This works during rush hours because 99% of the passengers are "regulars". However, do you know how "transit saavy" off-peak or weekend riders are? They would be missing their stops left and right. And don't compare New Brunswick, for example, to a station like Kew Gardens. There are thousands more riders who use New Brunswick on any given day.
3) Low Platforms With MU Equipment: On the Coast Line, there are still many low platform stations, and with the MU equipment, each door has to be opened manually at those stations. Even with push-pull equipment, somebody has to go through to open and close the all of the traps accordingly.
4) Just plain common sense: Commuter trains are different than Subways. On Subways, there is no on-board fare collection, and for the most part, there is no care for anybody's safety. If there was, they wouldn't have a conductor locked in a cross cab while 8 or 10 cars are open. On the railroad, conductors are not only responsible for fare collection, but also the safety of the riders. Not just "crime" safety, but mechanical safety as well. True, there are some crew members out there that leave a lot to be desired, but a lot of us care about our job and enjoy it as well.
>>>2) Length Of Platforms: Aside from the fact that the brakeman has to be in proper position to
open the doors (even though, according to your logic, you would rather see him constantly
run through 4 or 5 cars to collect fares and lift seat checks), the platforms don't always fit a
full train. Which means you have to have passengers walk up or walk back to exit.<<<
My branch, the Port Washington, has several short platforms.
That doesn't explain why, on weekend runs during the holidays when there is just one train per hour and the trains are packed, the last two cars are locked tight in a 10-car trainset and there's not a seat to be had in the ones that are open.
I'm not talking about late night runs when there's 20 passengers on the train, total...then closing cars is appropriate.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Twenty passengers on one trainset and the guys are balking about personal transportation...what a waste of energy. CI Peter
Granting all of that, there are still some just plain lazy SOBs who jam the passengers in so they don't have to walk the cars. Or who leave cars closed so RR employees can have a "private" car, and screw the paying customers. This is the reason the LIRR put out orders that a certain minimum number of cars be open on certain lines at certain times.
One particulrly bad incident was a couple of years ago on the 630 Penn-Babylon. This was a train which usually carried 8, but often 10 cars. Since it was on track 20 at Penn (at that time only platforming 8 cars) the conductor had to open the end doors to let commuters into the last cars. The conductor on this run was nice, and, if he saw the back cars getting jammed, always opened those last two.
Well, this one day the conductor opened those last two after people started to stand in the last car. There were a group of maybe 5-6 employees in that car, who complained loudly and endlessly all the way to Jamaica about what a bastard the conductor was for opening the rear cars
I have to admit, in my experience RR employees really like to have those last 2 cars to themselves and are poor passengers in general.
Example 1:
I catch the 8:15pm or 9:15pm from Penn to KO and the last 2 cars are usually closed. At Hillside all the EE's get on. Ok, no big deal, except when there is something in the city that night that makes the train crowded (Bon Jovi this past week is a good example) the crew will open up all the cars, the employee's get on and "take over" the cars, gathering in a large group and behaving as bad as the rangers fans, or some nights they put there feet up on the seats and leave a mess. Not all of them do it, but you would think they would act better.
Example 2:
The 4:58am and 5:29am Ko to Penn has Hillside a stop and lots of employees get off. You would think since they will be getting off before everyone else (Hillside is before Jamaica) they would not take the window seat, yet many do and then wake up paying passengers for there stop. Many also spread there papers out and try to take up as much space as possible even though those trains get pretty full.
It's a shame really, I know that attitudes between passenger and crew has slid over the years, but at some point someone really has to change if its going to get better.
That is completly wrong to happen...the train remains in revenue service and passengers have to pack in like sardines within the reamining cars. On the other hand, it's a lot of fun riding an out of service trainset by yourself and a platform stop needs Allen Funt and Candid Camera. CI Peter
If it really becomes a problem, then maybe some letters to LIRR management (with names) are in order. If that doesn't produce results (and you have to let LIRR give it an honest try) then sharing those letters with elected officials and Newsday or other newspapers(and yes, you leave the names in them.).
Well that's good old LIRR. Often on the Oyster Bay branch they'll have only two cars open, of a three car train, even on weekdays. The OB weekday offpeak trains can get crowded. Often adding to it are Mineola boarders on westbound trains, for some reason they don't want to wait for their direct MU to NYC and crowd our train. Often weekdays there will be standees on offpeak runs going to Jamaica, and they refuse to open the first car. And to make it worse, when we transfer to an electric at Jamaica, the front cars are closed and sometimes there are no seats. This has happened on several inbound trips. (Outbound is different, since I get on both trains at their starting points).
The conductors on the LIRR are lazy, they want to do the least amount of work possible. Sometimes they even argue over the PA who's going to "get the doors".
It's LIRR at it's funniest!
I don't know about the LIRR, but on NJ Transit, there is a rule forbidding anyone, including EMPLOYEES, from riding in the "deadhead" cars. Obviously, that rule is broken quite regularly, however usually not at the expense of forcing paying customers to stand or ride uncomfortably.
...on NJ Transit, there is a rule forbidding anyone, including EMPLOYEES, from riding in the "deadhead" cars.
I was politely ejected from a deadhead Arrow when I was trying to photograph the circus train when it was parked between Hamilton and Trenton. An employee was in the second seat at the front end of the car and was allowed to stay (talking with the trainlady who politely sent me to the next forward car).
Well, like I said, the rule is broken quite regularly. However, if I was working near a deadhead car, and if someone like you asked permission to enter for a reason like photographing out of the window, I would have obliged... As long as there were no bosses around. Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for you, I never work the Northeast Corridor Line.
As an architecture student, the Cathedral seems to stike a very deep chord in me. The immense building is still under construction -- still only about 2/3 complete -- and I think there's something very sacred in the art of building. Sort of a metaphor for God's unfinished work, I suppose.
I suppose some analogy could be drawn with the Second Avenue subway ... no, that's not God's work. Satan's, maybe,
Now you stated Redbirds had extra notch that was rewired ,Did you ever feel tempted as a railfan to Tweak a few things and let the Redbirds fly again? Reason I ask this because My last few days in the A division I had a redbird out of 239 that was a complete Jet .I mean heading into Pelham Parkway I was doing 56.Guys at Flatbush raved about that train for weeks.Someone tweaked it I know it wasnt you but Has the thought ever crossed your Mind?
Wow I'd love to be at the railfan window on that one. What happened to that bird? Reefed by now?
Reefing is halted once again because Bombardier R142s make many return visits to the 239th yard...just like the pigeons who make the R142s their home! Even if you can crank your trainset up to 60 MPH, you know that it will only be a burst....everything runs on a schedule.
Wow, that's amazing. Now come to think of it, 60mph is the same as 100 km/h. I remember riding transcontinentals in Formosa that ran at that speed. So that's like crossing an entire island by subway. It's weird, we thought it was really fast at the time. I guess everything is relative. Even Amtrak goes faster than that. And we paid extra to travel on the 60mph express trains instead of the 90 km/h (56 mph) locals that make more stops.
In the late 90's, they finally got CTC, so they could run either direction on either track. Once I was on an electric that ran at 130 km/h (81 mph) that overtook a diesel at 110 km/h in the same direction. It felt really fast.
AEM7
WB2SGT Redbird mobile cranks 90 MPH cruising interstate on at least three frequencies simultaneously...tough nougies if a Formosan/CDR trainset can't outrun one Scud launched from the mainland. Stay here...your safer. There are the Boldest, the Bravest, the Strongest but nobody ever mentions T H E S A F E S T.
We just went through that post....the MCC appears to have a extra notch that apparently isn't. There had been a mod to change motor shunting but the guys say they could still crank sixty. Even if I could tweek up a control system, remember that it would only be one or two cars out of the trainline. What you got was a trainset inspected and repaired by the 180/2329th crew. You'll never see that on any other line....more than half the crew comes from the September 17th CI class. On the floor with a 'flagged trainset' that came from #2 239 you'll see piles of brakeshoes and contactor parts...what you will not see is the parts exchanged out like J14 brake valves, load sensors and dynamic braking controllers. These trainsets on the #5 will run their best. Sure we can miss something....there is so much to fix...but we have supervision that ususally works hard too. Every T/O will eventually have to get used to a trainset that runs at a snails pace. Progress?? 'One step foward and two steps backward...progress is our only obstacle.' CI Peter
While looking at the history of PCC car #70 in Brooklyn Historical Railway Association, there was a picture in 1985 of this car running on the surface section of Buffalo Metrorail. How long was this car in service, and was it used as revenue service?
PCC #70 never ran in revenue service in Buffalo for a long list of reasons. Nor did it ever venture out on the line with revenue cars even for testing.
The car was worked on by NFTA's LRV maintenance staff just enough to get it operable, put a pantograph compatable with their system and that's it. As you can see from the GPS video and various pics, NFTA didn't even wash it. It was taken out for a spin within the yard limits and out to the yard lead on Main St. only a very few times.
PCC #70 and its 11 sisters was purchased for $500 each by the NFTA in 1990. The run shown in the picture couldn't have been from 1985, as that's when Cleveland finally retired it from service and placed the cars into outdoor dead storage for five years.
Buffalo bought them for a envisioned line extension to Totawanda. That never came to fruition, so the cars sat inside the NFTA shops for 11 more years until all twelve cars were sold to the BHRA in Spring of 2001.
R-142's are still out running around, even though most Subtalkers are asleep. Spare a thought for those hard working TA men and TA trainsets.
AEM7
What so special about the R-142 with the TA Crew???? Have you forgotten about the R-143??? And the other Trains?
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Thankyou. CI Peter
Let us all remember those who perished in the World Trade Center Disaster of 9-11. It shocked us all. I travelled through New York on 9-9-01 and saw the Trade Center Towers for the last time from Newark through the window of a speeding Amfleet. We shall never forget.
Where were you when you last saw the World Trade Center, and what were you doing?
AEM7
This photo was taken 12:05 AM Saturday, Sept.8,2001 from platform 9 of Hoboken Terminal. Copy and paste the URL
http://www.rypn.org/Briefs/april2002/020403.htm
I was on the roof of 2 WTC on 8/16/01.
As a side note, I too was thinking while I was up there that if there was ever a fire that got out of control, there was no way out.
Just out of curiosity, there were several other planes that were going to be hijacked but were intercepted by US intelligence. Does anyone know anything about them? The news seems so vague and doesn't mention anything about them, but I know there were some.
Just out of curiosity, there were several other planes that were going to be hijacked but were intercepted by US intelligence. Does anyone know anything about them?
According to a recent article in USA Today, none of those subsequently proved to have terrorists on board. A Korean Air flight was forced to land in Schwetchan (however you spell that Canadian place) and a Delta flight that was thought to be veering off path was in fact an United flight that subsequently crashed in Shanksville, PA.
If they intercepted any planes at all, I think they would have more suspects on trial than just ONE French-Morrocan guy.
AEM7
>>> The news seems so vague and doesn't mention anything about them, but I know there were some. <<<
And where does this knowledge come from? Other than speculative rumors on September 11th, I have never heard anything about any intention to highjack other planes on that day, or connected with the events of that day.
Tom
I almost went into WTC that summer when I had 20 minutes to kill, but I figured I didn't have enough time to get to the top, so I simply walked thru the plaza and left.
I never had gone (and unforutnately never will go) into the WTC towers.
I remember when the Twin Towers were being built. We wereliving in Jersey at the time.
I have taken photos of them, and from them. From the 107th floor observatory and the rooftop.
The last time I saw the Twin Towers in person was October 29, 2000 from LGA while waiting for my return flight to Denver to begin boarding.
I can't remember when the last time I saw the Twin Towers before 9/11, but the last time was underneath was exiting a #1 train at Cortlandt St station and transversing the mall to ride PATH to Hoboken (Try Transit) Fesitval. That was September 8, 2001. I had just returned from an ERA shop tour off 207th St.
Bill "Newkirk"
I had just visited the 207 Street Shops on a ERA tour 9/9/01.
I was there the day before. I was in the underground mall on my way from PATH and stopped in Borders, like I did all the time. When I was in Jersey City on Sept 10 I noticed the twin towers made a striking picture when you looked down the street. So I took the picture not realizing what would happen the following day.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was in there for the last time exactly 50 days before it was destroyed. I had taken the PATH to Hoboken for some railfanning and came back via NY Waterways. I wrote the attached article, and it has the picture that I took that day.
The World Trade Center.
Elias
Wow ... sure hope others take the time to sit and read your epistle there ... wow.
[Where were you when you last saw the World Trade Center, and what were you doing?]
I was riding the Circle Line with a friend a couple of weekends prior to the attack. Even got a photo of my friend with the Twins in the background.
On the one-year anniversary of HBLR I was having lunch in Jersey City with a friend who worked for Jersey Transit. It was a waterfront restaurant and the view of WTC was a presence throughout.
The last time I was in one of the buildings was more than a year earlier. I was in the lobby of the WTC building with the observation deck with my family. I wanted to take the kids up but it was late in the afternoon, everyone else was tired from a downtown tour and Staten Island Ferry ride, so we didn't do it. We just walked over the covered bridge spanning West Street and toured the waterfront and the nearby playground.
I hadn't actually been up in the WTC since before I had kids, in 1989. My wife and I paid our last visit to Cellar in the Sky before it was closed by the 1993 bombing.
As a sort of epilogue, my younger daughter was to have taken a class trip to WTC in October 2001.
(Where were you when you last saw the World Trade Center, and what were you doing?)
I guess you'd have to say Sept. 11th. There were a series of flashes and booms, then everything went black -- and what was the World Trade Center was in the air outside the office window. When I finally made it home to Brooklyn, there was a coating of it on our second floor (it was a beautiful day and we had left the windows open upstairs). My wife actually saw the buildings fall from her office. She was only three blocks away (I was about 5), and had to get down 30 flights of stairs -- changing staircases as they filled with smoke.
A year later, what is most amazing about the World Trade Center, aside from the fact that it actually happened, is that it wasn't worse by a factor of ten or more. When I walked past Beekman Hospital just after then second tower fell, and saw no ambulances arrive just some stunned hospital workers standing outside -- I was sure 30,000 to 60,000 were killed. And it's amazing how many buildings were saved, and that the infrastructure is more or less working. Anyone in any way responsible for the evacuation and recovery has something to be proud of.
8/21/01, was nearby for a City Council hearing. Not counting passing through the WTC concourse, the last time I was in either of the towers was for a job interview in the summer of 1993.
last time i was them was the morning of 9/11 standing in front of them smoking a cigarette b4 going to the path train, an hr b4 it all happened, then i saw them both collapse from outside of work in jerzy next to the hudson in weehawken
The last time I was there was on Sunday 9/9. I had gotten off the A train to take the PATH to Newark. There I would have taken the Shuttle Bus to Newark Airport. My daugter was returning from a business trip to San Diego and I went to meet her. As I was coming down an esculator to the mezzazine, I had a passing thought about the building collapsing. How if it happened, I wouldn't be able to get out of there. On the way back with my daughter I couldn't explain to her or myself how I wanted to get out of the area as soon as possible.
I went there just to stare at them, admiringly 2 times. I think 1 and 2 years from 9/11. I had no idea those 2 big behemoths would disappear....
Build them back and higher people!!!
I was last there on 9/8/01, the day of the Hoboken Try-Transit festival. I rode the 2 train to Park Place and walked the mall before reaching PATH Square to ride to Hoboken. It is always a ritual to me that when I arrive back in NY on the PATH, I always exit from the lobby of 1 World Trade Center and just look up at the enormous towers that stood above me. I always got a little dizzy after a while but that was part of the fun. A part of me fell down when the towers collapsed. The twin towers, whenever I came home from Florida via AMTRAK were a sign that I was home. I try to get as much memorabilia of the towers as I could so I can explain their legacy to my future children and grandchildren.
ALWAYS REMEMBER THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
from the parking lot of where i work AFTER the wtc was hit by the planes, and the smoke of what was left on the drive home from the high bridges on the turnpike at harrison. some people in my office saw the whole thing
Thank you... Those towers implanted an image in my mind that I will never forget...
Build them back and make the whole world see!!
I was at WTC twice in August 2001. The weekend of Fri/Sat Aug 17/18 my wife and I spent an overnight in Manhattan to celebrate wedding anniversary #31. Sat afternoon we took the R or N train from midtown to WTC because we wanted to take a waterfront stroll at Battery Park City. From 1974 to 1982, I had worked 1 WTC, so I certainly knew the area well. We also strolled in the WTC shopping concourse and my wife remarked what a nice place it must have been to work with all of the shops and restaurants in the concourse area.
A few days later, on Aug 23 (ironically enough, the actual date of our wedding anniversary), I met a group of other Subtalkers at WTC from which we took PATH to Newark in order to ride the Newark City Subway PCCs, which would stop running forever the next day. One member of the group took a group photo on the PATH train when we arrived at Newark. So that PATH train represents the my last link to WTC.
P.S. Thank you Thurston for sharing that picture.
The last time I was in there was a few years ago walking through the mall from the 1/9 to N/R. I was in spanish class when it happened. I didn't even know what happened till I got out of school. There were rumors floating around school but I didn't believe them.
I saw them while at Try Transit, 9/8/1. At school on the 10th, my friend Adam remarked how he should go up there some time.
Caught some things on TV news this morning that I had refused to see before. I had planned upon visiting Saint Pauls Chapel...some of the 239th crew wants me to go to Racoon Lodge for a few beers on a Friday. I am just not ready for this yet. CI peter
There is a lot more to say ...I was on my way into the city with my first car of my possesion on 911. Never got into Manhattan...spent three days trying to volunteer for emergency communications services.
then realised I had something more important to do that would be of greater value to others...Car Inspector school at PS 248 starting September 17th. CI Peter
I was getting a drink from that very nice Deli in the PATH mezanine, and had to take a pill for back pain. Then I went outside and leaned my back against the steel beams of the tower, and my back pain went away.
This was during the first week of September, I think on a Friday (the Friday before the week of the 11th.
I was getting on the #7 train going to school on 9/11/01 at 905am.
Then I got on the Q65 bus 382 and I thought I heard a dispatcher saying something over the radio but I couldn't make it clear of what it was. When I got to Union and 164 St, that was when I realized something was wrong. I saw QSC 518 on the QM1A going E/B with a full seated load at around 10am. Then 4-6 more QSC Express Coaches pass all with full loads. Then I got on 4938 on the Q46 and that was the usual full load to SJU. Once I got to SJU, I saw my friend who told me the news that the WTC has just collapsed. For a sec I thought he was kidding but once I put my radio on and heard it, I knew that it was no hoax. Announcers on 102.7 has said that both Twin Towers had just collapsed. I was just in shock.
Then I was able to get a ride abck to my house from my dad.
Saw a whole bunch of GBL buses packed to the doors-both ways.
A sad day indeed. We will never forget.
#951 Amtrak AEM-7 The True Red White and Blue
#1979 X1
#382 Q65
#4938 Q46
Riding a PATH train from Newark to Exchange Place on September 4, 2001. I could have gone to WTC to change for a train to Hoboken, decided against it since I figured I would have longer than the 6 days and 20 something hours I actually had left. Missed the Hoboken train at Exchange and the train I had been on came back heading to Newark before the next Hoboken train. I was going to be in New York (at Ellis Island) on the 13th. If the attacks had been about 2 days and 2 hours later, I would have seen them.
I was actually in NYC a week before 9/11. Riding the 7 and seeing downtown was one of the last times. I decided not to go the WTC on this trip, because I went there so many times, too bad I didn't.
I last saw a part the North Tower burning from the interchange ramp from the southbound Bronx River Parkway and the eastbound Cross County Parkway literally minutes before it collapsed. By the time the North tower collapsed I was in Larchmont, New York.
#3 West End Jeff
I saw the 2nd plane crash into the tower from the roof of my employers building in midtown. A group of us had gone up there after we heard about the first plane. I was last at the WTC on 9/8 going to and returning from the Hoboken Try Transit festival.
Peace,
ANDEE
What was I doing?
I was checking my email on 9/11/01 in my office 2 blocks away.
I was in the shopping mall the day before buying a battery for my watch at Radio Shack.
I last saw the WTC towers intact around 8:40am on 9/11/01, as I left my polling place at 1 WFC and turned south away from the towers on West St to walk to work. I hadn't reached Rector St when a boom from behind me made me look back over my shoulder, to see what looked like glass shards, papers, and some building debris falling slowly (well, it looked like it was falling slowly when it was still that high up) from the sky. From where I was it looked like an explosion from inside the tower, and not having any other information about what was going on, I kept walking to work, admiring the almost immediate emergency response making its way through the now-stopped rush hour traffic.
As soon as I got to my desk, which had an almost full view of the towers, I saw that both towers were now belching smoke. I never had a chance to sit down or fully digest that scene, our building was evacuated then. That was the last time I saw the towers; from our gathering spot at street level the view was blocked by other buildings.
Durng Christmas break in 2000, I took the family to the Observation Deck.
--Mark
I was in NYC just before Labor Day 2001. I had just spent a week in Boston and at Seashore Trolley Museum visiting friends having just been laid off out here in CA. Came down to NY for an extra day for my grandfather's birthday, and we had dinner at a restaurant on the Queens side of the East River. They had a boat ferrying people to and from Manhattan and even though we lived in Brooklyn, i took the ride back to the city because it was a gorgeous night and i wanted to enjoy the NYC skyline!
...little did i know....
I was in NYC the weekend before 9/11, still hyped up after the 2001 Chicago Field Trip. Friday, Sept. 7, my wife and I got off the 4 train at Bowling Green and walked down to the Battery where we boarded the ferry to Ellis Island. Her parents and my grandparents entered this country through EI and neither of us had been there before. It was a magnificent experience.
After exiting the subway I pointed out the WTC to her and asked if she wanted to go inside the complex; I had been there a number of times, most recently that April, but she had never been there. She said no, she'd like to but we didn't have time so maybe next trip.
About halfway between the dock and Liberty Island, I went up to the top deck of the ferry and looked south at lower Manhatten. You all know how nice the weather was those few days and the view looked like a postcard; it was so beautiful it took my breath away and filled this ex-NYer's heart with pride. I dragged my wife upstairs and made her look (she suffers from sea sickness and was sitting below). She agreed the view was beautiful.
Before we left St. Louis she asked me to take my camera. I chose not to, telling her "We've been to NYC many times and I used to live there. I know what it looks like so why do I want to spend my time looking through a viewfinder?" I got a big "I told you so!" and I agreed with her I should have taken my camera to capture that gorgeous view. My comment was, "Next time, I'll bring the camera."
Sunday evening we flew out of LGA and as we banked southward after departing to the west, I pointed out the lights of the WTC to her and said, "Say goodbye."
Less than 36 hours later it was gone forever.
The last time I saw the WTC in person was December 2000. I was visiting family in NY with my wife (who was my girlfriend back then). We actually tried to get on the ferry to see the Statue of Liberty but we missed the last one, so I decided to take her to see the WTC. (she had never been to NY before) When we got inside I wanted to go to the observatory, but she was feeling sick and wanted to leave and get some rest, since we did a lot of walking around that day. Later on she told me that she felt bad because she wanted to go to the top of the building, but figured that there will always be a "next time." At the time she (understandably) thought that the towers were not going anywhere, so we could always come back at a later time...
I last saw the WTC towers on the morning of September 11. Because my office is just three blocks from what is now Ground Zero and faces west, I saw the buildings burning and then collapse. I saw it all. My stomach still turns at the thoughts of what I saw.
That's why I won't watch any of the 9/11 specials on TV. I don't need to watch on TV that which I've already seen with my own eyes.
I last saw the "intact" World Trade Center about 8:10 am on September 11th. I had taken the LIRR to Flatbush Avenue that morning, as I do from time to time for variety's sake, and took note of the especially clear view of lower Manhattan from the elevated section over Atlantic Avenue. Needless to say, later that morning I had plenty of views of the burning towers.
My last time in the WTC would have been on September 3rd or 4th. I took the 1/9 to Cortlandt Street during my lunch hour to make a deposit at the Bank of New York on Broadway, and walked through the shopping concourse for a bit. I had only been into the towers themselves once, on a visit to the observation deck sometime in 1995 or 1996.
I was in Illinois, helping a friend of mine get settled in (she'd just moved there from NYC in August to get her MD/PhD at UIUC). I was sleeping (since it's an hour earlier there) when my cell phone rang, waking me up. It was a friend who lived in Jersey City and all he said was "Holy S#|t! A Plane just flew into the Trade Center!". I went to the living room and turned on the TV, to CNN, where they were talking about it. My friend came out while they were talking with prerecorded video in the background and said "what happened?" and I answered "terrorists". We both saw them play the video of the second plane hitting. IIRC, this was recorded, not live, as they weren't expecting it.
We spent the rest of the day glued to the TV, along with her trying to call friends and family in NYC to make sure everybody was Ok (she has a cousin at Stuyvesant and an uncle who teaches at Pace). All of her friends/family were Ok, but she didn't find that out until late in the evening.
Probably the freakiest things for me that day, other than the actual attacks, were 1) watching the news reports of the President being shuffled around, apparently heading toward SAC (were we going to make an immediate attack one someone?) and 2) watching the Congressional Chaplain reading from Armageddon that evening. Scary stuff...
Later, I started getting calls on my cell phone from people I never gave my cell number to, asking about my recollection of things related to the PATH tunnels (in particular, elevations and things about flooding). In return, these people would relate bits of information, or send me photographs in email. As I told Amanda, "you know you're getting accurate information when people you never heard of get your cell number and ask you technical questions".
Here is a picture I took in January of 2001. And here is one of the Tribute in Lights. They're big (particularly the second one), but you might like them. Feel free to use them for desktop wallpaper, etc. or any other non-commercial purpose.
I was on my way to the Try Transit festival on the 8th. They stood there large, then my school took the 9th graders on a camping trip to Indian Mountain Falls, CT from September 10-12...Getting back to the city was a biatch.
The window directly behind me on my right offers a full view of the skyline. I'm on the top (6th) floor of my building on the LIC waterfront directly opposite the south tip of Roosevelt Island. I was away from my desk when the first plane hit and thought the person who told me what happened was kidding until I saw the smoke, flames and gaping hole.
For the rest of the morning I was riveted to the spot and witnessed the entire subsequent sequence of events. It became painfully apparent this was no accident when a huge fireball appeared over the other tower. When the first tower went down, some people were crying; others were nervously making jokes. The FDR Drive was a long series of flashing emergency lights. Out another window, mobs of people were visible walking over the Queensborough Bridge.
We were allowed to leave at noon. I was prepared to walk the eight miles home, but someone who lives near me offered a ride. Pedestrians coming off the Queensboro were walking right up to us, trying to hitch rides. Traffic was okay until Shea Stadium; apparently the Whitestone Bridge was closed, creating a huge backup. We were forced onto the elevated Van Wyck southbound, from which the smoke was easily visible across Flushing Meadow Park. Ambulances were coming away from New York Hospital Center of Queens- the old Booth Memorial. A steady line of fire trucks imprinted with the names of Long Island communities was headed west on Northern Boulevard.
We got Rob out of school, where they apparently hadn't made any formal announcements- but there were many upset teachers and staffers milling around the office. Our neighborhood is usually filled with the sounds of jets going in and out of LaGuardia and heavy traffic on the Whitestone Expressway, but with air travel having halted, it was eerily quiet. Every now and then you could smell the conflaguration.
I went back to work the rest of the week. We were dismissed early Wednesday the 12th due to unsubstantiated threats, and were permitted dress-down Friday conditions on Wednesday and Thursday- no ties. Most people were in, except some from the Island, outer Brooklyn, Staten Island and Jersey. All the rest of the week, people kept hearing 'rumors': bombing at LaGuardia; bus hijacking on Staten Island; president poisoned; Whitney Huston suicide. The latter item actually elicited tears from some people who had been cracking jokes when everything was unfolding. When I suggested that Ms. Houston's suicide, if true, was somewhat less tragic than that of the thousands who had NO choice, that set the stage for a round of male-bashing.
The Flushing line was running normally (and empty) on Wednesday, but on Thursday morning was reported to be suspended due to threats, so I drove to Parsons/Hillside for the F. It was empty in the morning, packed in the afternoon- possibly due to service disruptions. The normal arguments heard on an overcrowded train were noticeably absent.
That Sunday, my wife felt a compulsion to be 'where the action was'. I wasn't about to go to Union Square, which had become the semi-official tribute center. So we went to the Brooklyn Heights Promenade, which was mobbed with spectators and tributes. The 5 we rode to get there slowed down and turned off its A/C when passing Fulton Street. That's when we really got the willies, being only a block away. All conversation in the car suddenly ended. The smell was still very apparent. We then headed to that eternal bastion of political throught, Washington Square, where the arch was draped in canvas on which people could write their thoughts. Normally full of grassroots musicians, the Square was even more so- very heavy on Dylan, Seeger and Beatles. There was even the usual street performance going on in the fountain.
I'd been up to the top about ten times between December 1975 (admission was $2.90!!) and October 1998. I wanted to make sure Rob had a good attention span before bringing him up, as admission had swelled to twelve bucks- even for kids. We never made it. In '77 I took some grainy 3-by-5s from the top on my old Vivitar. Despite their poor quality, I still have them. The observation deck and view were far superior to the cramped Empire State.
My last time on the property was on August 23 with the Subtalk trip to Newark. A bunch of us met at the Sbarro's in the basement. As a family, we were quite familiar with the complex, having used it many times as access between Borders, the subways, PATH and the bridge over to the Financial Center and park. The last time we'd been through the Winter Garden was probably that July.
Even the weekend prior to everything was ominous in retrospect. On Saturday the 8th, Rob's soccer league had a barbecue and pool party at Fort Totten, which is officially 'closed', but still has some military personnel in residence, plus training facilities for the NYFD and EMS. Three days later it would be a hotbed of activity, not to mention off-limits to civilians. On Sunday the 9th, we rode a 142 on the 2 express uptown from Penn Station. I kept thinking how slow it was compared to a Redbird.
To this date, I haven't lost anyone so far as I know- even though a couple of friends have lost casual aquaintences. In April, we took a tenth anniversary cruise out of Shea Stadium. When we got near the Statue, they shut off the engines and the DJ played "Proud to Be an American" for a very chilling effect. In June, we took the Circle Line cruise. The commentator called for a moment of silence when we passed the site. We've been back to the Financial Center several times, and on a nice day you'd never know anything happened (joggers, bladers, tourists). But then you look behind the Winter Garden and see open sky, it becomes all to apparent.
Visitors to my office often comment on the spectacular view from it. I inform them that I'd come to take it for granted until one year ago, when the view turned into a live horror show. Looking out my window now, all seems quiet like it did a year ago prior to 8:46. Let's hope it stays that way.
Peace.
All:
My last view of the WTC was from 37,000 feet on Monday, September 10, 2001. I was on a Delta flight from Atlanta to Boston, and fortunately seated on the left-hand side of our 757 as it followed part of the Queens-Nassau border. I remember we had low clouds till somewhere north of DC.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
This AM saw a slant on the W.
Wuz wondering if that's gonna be normal, or if it was a little bleed-over from the N-W switch.
Since the W is taking over the N's duties, it's a safe bet that the MU's normally used on the N during the overnight/weekend hours will be used on the W.
I had heard a rumor that after the 8th more "older" stuff would be showing up on the W.
I can't wait for the community to start complaining, since it is still a holiday, we'll hear them on Monday.
Also with more of the stuff from East NY at Coney (the misplaced 40's) we should see more on anything out of that yard, no?
That wouldn't make sense though. They should keep the older equipment asleep more often than the new equipment. That was the idea behind the Q and B swap a few years ago.
Again,a nything that was on the "N" overnight would now also show up on the "W" since the "N" isn't a 24/7 service, but anything is game.
No, there are more than enough R68A cars to fullfil W Service.
You're in my friend's physics class!!
Contact me via e-mail.
We know that there are enough 68-A's for the W, my point was since the MUs for N overnight service will be dormant, they will be put to use on the W as well.
One point though, on Friday, there were 2 sets of R68's on the W, and one set on the N.
It's really just what's available and can easily be taken out. But I was saying that we're not just going to see the W taking primarily the old stuff from the N and the N not primarily taking the R68As from the W. It wouldn't make sense to run up more miles on the older equipment when you can on newer stuff.
That's what they've been doing with the N and W until today. But the only problem with the R32s and 40s is that they don't have Pacific on the north rollsigns or 86th Street on the south rollsigns.
They've been using Kings Highway for quite some time now. And some crews don't acknowledge the existance of 86 Street on the new R68/R68A rollsigns.
Or they are just plain lazy and don't want to turn to 86st...after all, according to my master rollsign AHEMfunAHEM list Kings Highway is 8 away from 86st.
West end from a Slant R40 window. That is something I'm gonna have 2 try!
Saw three slant trains on the W this afternoon as well as one R32.
Good news: Insurance money paid for this.
Bad news: No elevator yet.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/17089p-16224c.html
thanks. I will look out for this when I pass through Rector St on the 1 train, one week from now.
--Brian
Is there any plans for any Locomotives such as the AMD103 to go in the Surfliner Paint Scheme? Does the AMD103 even run on the Surfliner Route?
I seriously doubt it.
The AMD-103's couldn't keep up with the schedule on the Pacific Surfliner route.
When they were new, they did try them out down here when it was the San Diegan. Throw your watch away when boarding the train.
The tight scheduling and frequent stops are the reasons they ordered the F59PHI's for the Surfliners, California Amtrak services (Capitol and San Joaquins) and the Washington State Cascade services.
I live right next to the tracks three and a half miles out of Santa Ana -- and right next to a talking detector. When the F40's left Santa Ana, they's be doing 77-83 miles an hour. Now the F59PHI's are running and it's 82-87 miles an hour. (The track limit is 90...) But when they AMD-103's were here, it was 51-57 miles an hour!!
The AMD-103 is a very good engine for holding its speed -- once it gets there. Once it was established on this line that the AMD-103's sucked at keeping the schedules, it became common practice to use an AMD-103 at one end of the train and an F40 at the other. That way the train had the oomph to get up and go, and the AMD-103 could hold it there on the longer stretches -- AND the head-end power on the AMD-103's wasn't failing as much as it was on the aging F40's.
Oh thanks for the info, but why was the AMD103 doing 51-57 mph? So far I believe that's the highest Diesel Horsepower Train they have(P42).
-AcelaExpress6250
Amtrak Modeling
P42 4250 horses
Dash8 3200 horses
P40 now upgraded to P42 standards
P32 3200 horses 12 cylinder
F59phi is like 3200-4000
Correct me if im wrong
The Rocketship (F59) is about 3200 IIRC.
3,200 is the rating after HEP. 4,000 is the rating before HEP. HEP takes 800 hp. F59 can power a very long train.
AEM7
The F59phi is only 3200 hp with a EMD 710 engine only delivering that.
the HEP is of a seperate engine delivering max 600Kw 480 volt.
The Genesis locomotives have a 800Kw max HEP but in all its a parrasitic load off the Mainengine.
sorry here is link to verify the data from last post :
why did it not give link ?
http://www.westcoastexpress.com/Main.htm?LocomotiveSpecs.htm
If I am not misreading this thread, I should point out that Amtrak does have GE Genesis units which are rated at at least 4500 horses, and up to 5,000 horses. These are the highest hp diesel-electrics in service, unless you include Union Pacific's twin-engined locos from years ago (two sixteen-cylinder supercharged diesel engines in one loco, each rated at 3300 hp).
GE's Genesis P-42's are 4,250 hp (hence P-42)
EMD's SD-90MAC are 6,000hp
GE's AC6300 are 6,300hp
UP's old centennel DD40AX are 4,000hp (basically 2* GP-30)
UP's old gas-turbine are in excess of 10,000hp
AEM7
DD40AX is double GP40 at 6000hp (2x3000)
6600hp.
The "X" in the model number was to denote that there was much experimental equipment on the unit...such as a 3300hp engine. 2x3300=6600. Another of the experimental items was modular electronics assemblies.
I stand corrected. EMD has some bigger iron.
About the Genesis: I have seen GE's manufacturer's markings on a Genesis loco in Amtrak service stating that the horsepower output was 4500.
The UP 6900 series DDA40X were NOT 4000 horsepower or "basically 2 GP30" as stated. Besides, if it were two GP30's, it would add up to 4500 HP as the GP30 was 2250HP.
They were 6600 HP -- two 3300HP engines on one frame.
The predecessor DD35's were 5000 HP -- two GP35's on one frame.
The GE engines load up a lot slower than EMD's....basically, the comparison should have been between the AMD-103 and the F40 only, as they were the power for seve-car Amfleet/Horizon trains. The AMD103 may be a bigger engine, but the HEP sucks a lot of that horsepower before it gets to the traction motors where it's needed.
The F59's are 3200hp, but also have another engine just for HEP, so all 3200hp of their prime mover goes to the rails....and they are pulling five or six car Surfliner sets.
But a P42 will beat an F59 anyday.Because of the momentum
When you are starting, momentum is the last thing you want. Weight is good for adding to the tracive effort, as the normal force of the wheels on rails increases with increasing weight. But as Mr. Nasodowski will tell you, TE is useless above 15 mph, after that it is a horsepower war, and the lighter F59PHI, with 3200hp all going to the rails will beat the P42 with parasitic HEP sucking as much as 800 hp off the prime mover, means that the P42's acceleration pretty much sucks. Add to that the fact that GE's four stroke engines generally slow loading characteristics compared to EMD's two strokes, mean that the 710 powered F59PHI will beat the P42.
The AMD-103 is a very good engine for holding its speed -- once it gets there. Once it was established on this line that the AMD-103's sucked at keeping the schedules...
I don't know if I agree with this assessment. What was the grades on those lines? The GE's aren't that bad at acceleration. Maybe the EMD's are marginally better, but since I hadn't ridden behind an AMD for a long time, I don't know. Your claim of 80-odd mph versus 50-odd mph makes me wonder if the talking detector is working correctly. Sounds like the consist was different, with the GE's hauling more load.
AEM7
No, the detector works just fine. I live right next to the tracks, and believe me, I CAN judge speed. If it were off by 2-3 miles an hour, maybe not -- but 30 miles an hour/ ome on, any idiot could judge that. And if the GE units WERE doing much better, they would still be on the line and Amtrak wouldn't have went to the F59PHI for these services.
It was the GE engines that were slow, because GE's load up slower and the HEP takes a lot of the horsepower from the engine before it goes anywhere else.
Grades on the line? It's upgrade from about my place to a few miles past Irvine. Not too stiff of a grade, but the tracks gain over 200 feet in eight miles. Coming the other way, it's uphill from where the tracks leave the ocean south of San Juan Capistrano to the top of the grade (at Alicia Parkway). There's also the Miramar hill in San Diego.
The grades may not be that of the Rockies...but when you have these grades plus frequent stations (look at the timetables, you'll see), you need an engine that can get up and go.
When i was waiting for the Times Square Shuttle at Grand Central last night A train pulled in but wasn't in service but the front roll sign was a "D"!!!!. I could see another number but a D. I didnt know they included B division roll signs on R62As or was this just a fluke. By the way it was assigned to the lenox yard but i couldn't get the car numbers. Let me know ur opoions and comments.
Adam
There's no D on it. Perhaps a 10?
hmmmm i dunno about that. i have heard there is a 9, 10 and 11 sign
Betcha a buck it was a "movie train".
On The Shuttles would the headsigns have A-Z and 1-13? Because the lline is marked (S)?
The R62A rollsigns include the following readings:
Red: 1, 9, 2, 3, 13
Green: 4, 4-diamond, 5, 5-diamond, 6, 6-diamond, 8, 10, 12
Purple: 7, 7-diamond, 11
Grey: S
What we need to do is tie the use of transit into a God. For instance, we could start this religion called "Transitants". Basically, there will be a bible that basically says you have ride transit wherever you go, and transit is the only way to get to heaven. It will also say that other modes of transportation like segways, motorcycles and automobiles are evil, and should be avoided. Of course, it doesn't say that it should be forbidden, it just says it should be avoided. Then we could sacrifice a Redbird and say that the splash that the water makes is a sign, and we were inspired by the Transit Gods to write a sensational account of a Redbird sinking. We can also employ missionaires that go to the third world and tell people to ride transit.
AEM7
And those third world people should make a pilgrimage, at least once a year, to ride the New York City subway; they would take their MetroCards back to their countries with them and place them in a little wooden box with an aromatic scent about it in an altar at home.
Guess who works with those 'third worlders?' Can anyone name at least four of the 'Indian Saints'? Next thing posted I'll see is a direct connection between Second Avenue and the Blue Army Shrine. I don't want them in the subways because they are a safety hazard....lettum visit relations in 7-11 and fill up the little wooden box with USAdollars.
LMAO!! Or we could go by logic and say public transit saves time, it makes the environment by limiting personal vechivular pollution from going into the air and it makes the city a lot more aesthetic.
I think that's a bette idea. ;-)
Or we could go by logic and say public transit saves time...
You know, it sometimes make me sick how much this country relies on illogical things that are called beliefs. Like for instance, about 20% of the single population in this country are missing out on something really good called sex-before-marriage, because of their belief that it's an evil thing to do. I'm Catholic too, you know, and if we could just get the Catholic Church to buy into the belief that by riding Transit you are serving God, then I bet you the urban transit mode share will climb from 3% to 10% in a few years. Of course, there are many practicing religious people who won't do as they preach, but most at least TRY to. All we really need in the transit industry is to have people at least TRY to ride transit whenever they can.
I think the transit-advocate's biggest mistake is becoming auto-hostile. The Church doesn't get very far by preaching "hate is evil"... instead the Church is far more effective when they preach "love is good".
AEM7
So true. I'm catholic and the religion has filled people with lies and beliefs which completely change people and make them think a lot differently, unfortunately...
I', so glad you agree with me....do you!?
So true. I'm catholic and the religion has filled people with lies and beliefs which completely change people and make them think a lot differently, unfortunately... I'm so glad you agree with me....do you!?
Basically, yes. I'm very forgiving about religion though. I don't think people delibrately set out to fill young minds with lies. I think people always have their best intentions in mind when they promote these "lies". A friend of mine was taken advantage of by some fucker from Toronto (explains why I hate that City) -- and if she'd stuck to the "Catholic" guidelines then it wouldn't have happened. In some circumstances they are good guidelines. But who am I to judge? Only with her hindsight she could say that "it would be nice if I hadn't done that". I still want to run a Redbird over that guy, if I could find it. Probably just as well she didn't tell me where he live, or I could be on the run...
Then there's this other friend of mine who is 25 and have never been able to date anybody because guys today (especially in Boston) don't take you seriously when you say to them on the first date that you're Catholic and wouldn't consider doing it. With this girl, who is a complete suburbanite, I was able to convince her that (1) inner city isn't dangerous, (2) if you live in Boston, you should get to know the MBTA, (3) intelligence isn't everything, and you should focus not just on whether guys are smart but also on looks and other things that makes a guy a guy... but I was never able to convince her of item (4), namely that sex acts aren't really evil, and that they are only evil if they are abused.
AEM7
Good thoughts...sorry that you had to bring all of thoss events to make your point..
(1) inner city isn't dangerous, (2) if you live in Boston, you should get to know the MBTA, (3) intelligence isn't everything, and you should focus not just on whether guys are smart but also on looks and other things that makes a guy a guy... but I was never able to convince her of item (4), namely that sex acts aren't really evil, and that they are only evil if they are abused.
OK, I agree with all of it. #3 bothers me a little (even though I agree with it also), because, well, a guy's prowess in the sack, or his intent on treating a lady well in the long run isn't always evident by his outer looks. In fact, they can be opposites. So if a girl is impressed, or persuaded to follow how cute a guy is in the conventional sense,some of us would really be up the creek. (Women have told me I'm handsome, but in my college years my handicapped left side was somewhat of a problem. I waited a long time for the ladies to be mature about that...)
OK, I agree with all of it. #3 bothers me a little (even though I agree with it also), because, well, a guy's prowess in the sack, or his intent on treating a lady well in the long run isn't always evident by his outer looks. In fact, they can be opposites. So if a girl is impressed, or persuaded to follow how cute a guy is in the conventional sense,some of us would really be up the creek.
I had been looking for a long time before I met Melyssa, and I always seem to hit the same barriers -- either the girls are too concerned about looks (plus some are racist, thus my oriental heritage would preclude their even talking to me), or they are overly concerned about intelligence (such as this young lady I met when I came to Boston) that they spend all their time trying to impress me by making profound statements about Conficuous (however you spell the guy's name) that they wear jeans, T-shirt and no makeup to a date. Then when I show up in suit and tie, they mutter something along the lines of being "not good enough for me".
It might be surprising to some people, but allegedly intelligent people actually really hate being told that they are intelligent... perhaps cute girls feel the same way, I don't know. Do females hate being told that they are beautiful?
As for the prowess in the sack, I have not yet found a reasonable predictor for that which is externally visible. In fact I would argue that prowess in the sack is a question of attitude and mentality... so that everyone could be wonderful if they only had the right attitude.
Melyssa, on the other hand, is one in exp(1000000000000). Oops, floating point overflow...
AEM7
"It might be surprising to some people, but allegedly intelligent people actually really hate being told that they are intelligent... perhaps cute girls feel the same way, I don't know. Do females hate being told that they are beautiful?"
I have never met a woman who reacted badly to being told she's beautiful.
"As for the prowess in the sack, I have not yet found a reasonable predictor for that which is externally visible. In fact I would argue that prowess in the sack is a question of attitude and mentality... so that everyone could be wonderful if they only had the right attitude. "
Right on!
I'm glad Melyssa is special.
Often a right lady for a guy is truly a diamond in the rough, as the old cliche goes...
if we could just get the Catholic Church to buy into the belief that by riding Transit you are serving God, then I bet you the urban transit mode share will climb from 3% to 10% in a few years.
That's funny, I already ride transit in part, based on my beliefs. I believe that I need to act in ways that are not harmful to other people, and since riding transit reduces pollution and decreases the likelihood of fatal auto accidents, I see it as a moral duty to do so when possible. Also, since this nation consumes a disproportionate amount of the world's resources, and riding transit uses a smaller chunk of those resources than driving, riding transit for me is also a social justice issue. If riding transit reduces our need for foreign oil and can help keep us out of foreign wars, than I also have a responsibility to use it, to save the lives of those who might die in such wars. My own beliefs teach me to "love my neighbor as myself," and living this out for me means to using transit whenever possible.
Mark
Sounds like a great idea.
Sacrifice a Redbird? Nah, no effective enough. We need human sacrifices.
I vounteer AEM7 to be the first.
We need human sacrifices. I vounteer AEM7 to be the first.
Except that AEM7 is an alien :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The W had at least 2 R40 slants running on it today. Maybe next weekend they'll reappear, it's likely that they'll be turned back to N's on Monday.
It also appears that the R32's frequent appearance on the F will be delayed. There are a slew of R46's lined up for the Monday rush hour on the F. Will the R32's become more frequent on the F? We'll have to stay tuned on that one.
Hmm, any plans for R32's on the V or dare I say it - Slants on the V!
Not according to the official assignment...and slants on the V would be extremely unlikely, considering that none are assigned to Jamaica Shop, which is the V's home shop, and there are no plans to assign any there.
David
does anyone know when airtrain will make its magnificent debut?
Now with the arrivals of the R143 cars & prehaps the R32 cars transferred from Coney Island Yard to Jamaica Yard, there would have been enough R32 & R46 cars to extend the G train to Church Av.
Your thoughts on this topic is appreciated.
Why not? A fine idea.
Egads! Busfan isn't trolling anymore... Good idea!
Isn't the G train a 24 hour OPTO service? R32's are most likely not used for OPTO.
No, but if Jamaica gets more R32s, that frees up R-46s for the G.
The new version of "The Map" is now available at token booths:
(from http://subway.com.ru/maps.htm)
Looks nicer and more sophisticated. I never dug that blurred look.
Hosted on a Russian website...
"Hosted on a Russian website..."
Acutally the website is in Brooklyn, just the domain name is Russian.
(free Russian domain registration)
Wait, this is the cover of new version subway map? Looks much nicer.
This will brighten my subway maps collection.
I see Peter Kalikow managed to get his name on the cover.
That is one nice cover. All they need to do now is bring back the strip maps on the reverse side! Who cares about LIRR and MNRR. They could have fitted that on the subway side. 8)
I will be sure to pick one up at Main St. Station tomorrow. Are they there yet?
Nice site, but where on earth is the full scan of the map itself? What gives?
head this all the way 2 da' western states on the newz here !!
it seems that almost all public telephones in the nyc subway system
are out of order & do not work ( the only line of communication out )
??? ..................!!
oh no cannot call my hotel by pay phone next week !!! .........!@
>>>>>>>>no..>>........lol !!
heh. MBTA payfones are owned by MBTA, and serviced under contract by Verizon. I'm glad they have this arrangement here.
AEM7
!!..........?.........I thought ( Verizon ) was tha' bomb !!
he he !
what is MBTA ?? .........!
MBTA = More Breakdowns and Tow Aways
YEP ....................lol
we may be the last generation who will actually remember when pay phones even existed. In my experience, they have always been dicey in NYC, they are degrading eberywhere and that is why I finally caved in to a cell phone. Having done so, I have few regrets. BTW, the MTA uses IIRC at&t who provides an advert between dialing and connection how nice!
>>> we may be the last generation who will actually remember when pay phones even existed. In my experience, they have always been dicey in NYC, they are degrading eberywhere <<<
You are probably correct. Between the poor service and repair offered by the proliferation of shoestring providers and the reduction of utility by law enforcement, a cel phone is becoming a necessity. The new federal courthouse building in Los Angeles used to have three pay phones on every floor. Ten years ago they were always busy. The other day I went to look up a number in a phone book and found that all the pay phones above the first floor had been removed and replaced with signs directing anyone wanting to use the phone to four pay telephones located in the lobby. Those phones are rarely all being used at the same time.
There have been threads in the past about cel phones in the subway, and at one time NYT was thinking of wiring the tunnels so cel phones would work. What happened to those plans?
Tom
I don't think they have been carried out, though I did see someone completing a cellphone call on the IRT platform at Penn Station - but his call would have been dropped as soon as the #1 train had exited the station.
In the 47-50 (6th avenue) station, it's possible to receive radio reception, especially in the north end of the station, as far down as the platform. It's possible that cell phone reception is also possible in that, and probably a few other similar stations.
Many years ago when VHF FM radios were introduced, VHF four or five element Yagi antennas were placed in significant spots along with dedicated telephone relay cables. The system had many drop outs underground despite the higher RF output of GE Porta-Mobile transceivers made to run off trainset 37.5 VDC. A product called 'CoaTenna' was run throught the tunnels....newer system equipment allowed the use of hand held radios.
'Wireless' as most of know now works with 'cell site' receivers....that is, you have to have a certain number of cell sites in order to cover a specific square milage. Subway tunnels are easy sites for the higher frequencies of PCS....problem is the 'charter system. Conned Ed supplies city street wiring, NY Tel/NYNEX/Verizon provides city street telephony and Time/Warner/Cablevision provides the most of cable TV. There will only be one 'cellular/PCS' provider in the NYCTA and anyone user outside of that provider will be a 'roamer.' Anyone assuming their phones are working properly underground is mistaken...they're just lucky to find a 'hole' to the surface that connects to the system. We are dealing with money/politics/time. This is just like advertising....whomever coughs up the best contract with TA wins. There is potentially a lot of money involved. CI Peter is WB2SGT, OnTheJuice and OnTheAir!
Probably vandalism is what's damaging the subway station phones. You'll be lucky just finding a public phone in the city that actually works. Remember to thank the slacking police patrols thanks to Bloomberg cuts for all of this.
you know now that i think of it i did not see but i few public phones
anyway !! maybe one here or there sometimes ..........?.........!!
I've got news for you and the Straphangers: public phones OUTSIDE the subways don't work, either! Most of them have been recalibrated to require the new fifty-cent charge -but they sure as heck don't work any better. This is why I finally caved in and got a cell phone. It's a lot harder to buy something for fifty cents to get two quarters change for the phone than it was to buy something for seventy-five cents to get one quarter.
AT & T doesn't provide for a signal underground (although I see plenty of other people gabbing away on THEIR cels on underground subways!). In fact, for the first few minutes after I climb upstairs to the street the readout still says "No Network". Sometimes I have to shut it down and turn it on all over again. At least voice mails will come in while it's inoperative, whether because of being underground or shut off.
The fifty-cent charge was rescinded shortly after being implemented. There shouldn't be any Verizon payphones in NYC that charge more than a quarter for the first few minutes of a local call.
They only rolled back the price on the street phones. Phones at hotels and the like remain at fifty cents.
Peace,
ANDEE
Really? That's odd, though understandable. What about other public areas, like shopping malls, museums, and (ObTransit) subway stations?
I'm not entirely certain, subway stations, no. I remember reading something about tourist areas. It's interesting to note that all the signs still say fifty cents. I always start w/a quarter no matter what the sign says if it works fine if not I use fifty cents. Real sneaky Pete stuff, if you ask me.
Peace,
ANDEE
AT & T doesn't provide for a signal underground (although I see plenty of other people gabbing away on THEIR cels on underground subways!).
No one provides for a signal underground yet, except in the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels (don't know about BBT and QMT, they might too). If you're close enough to the surface, any of them will work. The problem is with your phone - I'm just guessing, but I suspect you have an Ericsson, which seem to be the most troublesome of the lot. They aren't the only ones that can have issues, though; my wife and I both have Nokia phones with AT&T Digital One Rate and her new 6360 will often pick up signals in marginal areas when my four year old 6160 won't.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You have to give them time to install all the wire taps! They have to be able to find out when railfans are co-ordinating a photostop somehow, in order to nip itin the bud.
-Robert King
I thought SF and Rector were reopening Sept. 11. I read in the News today it will be Sept. 15.
NYCT never said they would open September 11. The only official date (as opposed to the early ballpark estimates) has been September 15.
David
Oh. Okay.
At midnight? Is the exact schedule of the first revenue train available yet?
It was posted that the booths at SF and Rector open at 12:01am on Sunday, the 15th. So I think that tells ya something. We gotta talk btw. Where are we meeting Saturday night? Up north or at Chambers?
--Brian
It looks like the first revenue train will be a PM crew instead of a midnight crew. Since Im not on the 1 on Saturdays, IDK which is the first revenue train to go through the loop. I cant until Sunday, and we arrived into Chmbrs N/B with green over green.
It looks like the first revenue train will be a PM crew instead of a midnight crew. Since Im not on the 1 on Saturdays, IDK which is the first revenue train to go through the loop. I cant wait until Sunday, and we arrived into Chmbrs N/B with green over green.
The official dtae is 9/15/02 at 12:01 am (1 minute after midnight.)
And not a minute later!
Can't Hardly Wait...
so here is further info
Subject:
[BATN] City CarShare profile
Date:
Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:49:51 -0700
From:
"9/3 SF Examiner"
Reply-To:
BATN-owner@yahoogroups.com
To:
batn@yahoogroups.com
Published Tuesday, September 3, 2002, in the
San Francisco Examiner
Reinventing the wheels
By Nina Wu
Elizabeth Sullivan is executive director and
co-founder of City
CarShare, a nonprofit business based on the
European concept of
sharing cars. [BATN:
http://www.citycarshare.org ]
The idea seems to be taking off in the Bay
Area. Launched in San
Francisco a year and a half ago, City
CarShare has since expanded to
Berkeley, Oakland and Palo Alto, with about
1,850 members.
Nina Wu: Is City CarShare working?
Elizabeth Sullivan: Our first year is taking
off. It's working
incredibly well. Our hope was that in the
first year, maybe 400 or 500
people would try this service. It's such a
new idea. We had 1,500
people join in our first year.
Q: Where did you get the idea for car
sharing?
A: The idea comes from Europe, where it's
been most successful. Twelve
to 15 years ago, car sharing started in
cities like Zurich and
Berlin. They've really taken it far. We
looked at a car share in
Switzerland that has 50,000 people. Those
50,000 people share just
1,200 vehicles, but the cars are every two to
three blocks throughout
Zurich and they have a close relationship
with the Swiss National
Rail.
Q: Who funded you?
A: The most support, really, came from the
federal Department of
Transportation. They awarded us about $1.2
million. The second
category of funding really came from the
local community and private
foundations.
Q: How many cars did you start off with?
A: We started off with 12 vehicles and now we
have 80. Ten of those
are electric vehicles.
Q: Why did you choose those bright green
Volkswagen Beetles as your
trademark?
A: We chose it really for marketing reasons,
for fun. They're
extremely safe. We also chose the vehicles
because of the idea that,
kind of like San Francisco, the Beetles were
reinvented.
Q: Who are your clients?
A: We see a really broad range of people who
use the
service. Originally, when we first opened, a
lot of single, young
people who for whatever reason wanted to save
money. They may have
lived in a neighborhood where it was
difficult to park. Now we see
families with young children and retirees.
Q: How much does it cost?
A: There's a $10 monthly fee to be a member.
All other costs are based
on the amount that you drive. There's an
hourly charge of $3.50 and
that's capped daily at 10 hours, so you never
have to pay more than
$35 a day. And there's a small mileage charge
of 37 cents a mile.
Q: Is gas included?
A: Yes, gas, insurance, maintenance, all
those things are
included. And you've got a guaranteed parking
spot when you get
back. There's a gas card and we just ask
people to leave at least half
a tank when they leave the car.
Q: How did you manage to get these parking
spots?
A: We had excellent cooperation from our
cities and they've all given
us free parking. We say, look, we've been
hearing a lot from this
neighborhood. They really want us to come
there.
Q: Any accidents?
A: We've had a few accidents. We have a good
accident rate, very
low. We have excellent insurance coverage,
but if the driver's at
fault, then we take it from the deposit. When
you join City CarShare,
we take a $300 deposit.
Q: What if everyone wants to use a car at the
same time -- say, over
the weekend?
A: There is a lot of demand, especially on
Saturdays, from 10 a.m. to
2 p.m. That's the peak demand in our week. So
we work really hard to
get more cars to cover that time. We also try
to tell people, is there
any way you could use the car Sunday morning?
It's really important
for us to get business members because they
tend to use the cars
during the week.
Q: What have people said to you so far about
this?
A: People have said great things. They say
it's great to have this car
without spending all this money. People have
talked of foregoing the
purchase of a car or selling their cars.
That's what we hope
eventually will happen, that the service will
become so convenient and
normalized that people will think twice
before bringing an SUV into
The City.
Q: But the reality is people want to own
their own car. They want the
convenience and they personalize their cars.
For a lot of people, ego
and identity are tied in with the car.
A: That may be true for some people. But
there's a huge population of
people who just need a car for certain things
and consider their cars
a pain in the neck. What we're seeing with
people who use car sharing
is they're very practical. They want to go to
Costco, the airport or
do some errands in The City. Otherwise,
they're not attached.
Q: How do you keep track of the scheduling
for the cars?
A: Our entire system is automated. The
scheduling, the reservations,
the application are all online. You can
reserve a car at four in the
morning and go pick up your car.
Q: Can low-income folks afford your rates?
A: Yes, they can. It's much more affordable
than maintaining your own
vehicle. The average customer pays $50 to $75
a month. The average Bay
Area resident pays $500 a month to maintain a
vehicle.
E-mail: nwu@sfexaminer.com
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What is the "official" horn sounding for Level 1 railroads when approaching grade crossings? Is it:
LONG-SHORT-LONG-SHORT or is it:
LONG-LONG-SHORT-LONG?
Thanks in advance.
LONG - LONG - SHORT - LONG
Jim K
Chicago
Isn't it *LEAN ON HORN UNTIL ENGINE PASSES OVER CROSSING* ???
AEM7
Nope...it's LONG LONG SHORT LONG, with the last LONG extending through the crossing.
David
The rule reads the last note must be held until the engine is clear of the crossing, I believe.
In reality, if the proper signal isn't sounded at each grade crossing, the FRA can fine the railroad and the engineer can be disciplined. This can be difficult in areas such as the area west of Farmingdale or East of Mineola where the crossings are so close together that if the train is at MAS, the engineer cannot sound the proper signal at each crossing. Despite this, the LIRR periodically puts out a CYA bulletin reminding engineers to sound the proper signal (Per rule 14L) at all crossings.
I feel sympathy for those Long Islanders whose houses are right near a grade crossing. On the way home from Splish Splash Water Park in Riverhead, on the train from Ronkonkoma to NYP, me and my friends were trying to catch some Z's. Not possible AT ALL..."BAHHHHHHHHHH BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BAH BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" Annoyed the shit out of me, but hey, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Better to hear the horn go off than hear about a "passenger accident"
With the gates down, what's a horn going to do? Blast a car out of the way?
Since LI has pretty much all gated crossings, horns are quite pointless, unless something's actually *there*.
Maybe the horn might wake up the dipshit that doesn't even see the gates.
It's a backup device. No, it won't get an offending car out of the way, but it might prompt the driver to try to get off the tracks. A pedestrian on the tracks can scamper off, and the train's engineer can sometimes buy a few precious seconds of time by going BIE.
People are stupid, but I'm in favor of making an honest effort to save even a stupid person's life. If it doesn't work out, well, at least you tried. If you woke up somebody from sleep, no permanent harm done there.
It's deterrant effect. I've seen people poke their auto onto the tracks, wanting to jump barrier, then the engineer leaned on the horn and they backed off. This happens most often if the train is going slowly. Even if there is enough time for a car to get across, it is still best to stay until the train goes through because an unexpected event (e.g. engine cutting out) could leave you stranded on the track in front of the slow moving train with not enough time to get out.
Also, the horn is needed at unguarded crossings, and if the engineer sounds the h0rn at every crossing, then there is no risk that he would forget about an unguarded crossing.
AEM7
If you live near the right of way, you get used to it quickly and after a short while, you don't hear it anymore. Sorta like living near an El. You get twitchy when you DON'T hear it. :)
Uh, who was there first, the railroad or the houses???
Usally (and especially out here) the Railroad...
In reality, if the proper signal isn't sounded at each grade crossing, the FRA can fine the railroad and the engineer can be disciplined...
Hmm. That's interesting. Obviously, there is that close-crossing problem you describe. Then there is the Chicago "quiet community" problem, where many engineers would not sound the horn at all. Then there is the me standing by grade crossing in Ohio and never hearing any kind of distinguishable Long-long-short-long...
Which was why I thought people were pretty cavalier about it. Evidently not. I guess I just happen to come across a lot of poor engineers!
AEM7
There's a few malcontents out there who are unhappy about their shift and want to let the surrounding communities KNOW about it. Get the nose number and time and place and dispatch will take a shoe paddle to them. :)
I live right next to the tracks, half a mile from a grade crossing. The Metrolink trains are religious about blowing the horns. The Amtrak trains are too. But the BNSF freights? I wonder if the crews are even awake....nary a squeak from the horns.
The "quiet community" is the result of an agreement of some kind between the RR and the community. Theyt must need some kind of FRA OK, because if the FRA decides that "quiet" (ie no blow through crossings) is not acceptable, then there is nothing the community can do about it. Mayors and city councils have no authority over railroads.
I always wondered about the horn rules. On NJT timetables, it states according to NJ state law, an engineer is required to sound his/her horn at approach to all stations. At night, only the headlight on an approaching train serves as a warning. I know some stations on the Morristown and Gladstone lines have stations that start at grade crossings and some even have a crossing within a station e.g Matawan on the NJCL. Does the horn rules applies to these stations as well or there is some exception, such as the ringing bells at crossings?
I have heard NJT sound horns after dark.
I kind of like the sound of the horns at night. I live about a 1/2 mile from the LIRR Montauk branch, and can hear the train as it approaches the nearby grade crossings. It kind of relaxes me, especially when I can't sleep for some reason. It's loud enough to hear, but not so loud as to be annoying. I can even hear when a train stops at the station nearby in the middle of the night. it usually gives two short horns before leaving the station (when it goes east as there is a grade crossing right next to the station.) It's only single track, so there are hardly ever two trains near each other.
Before the LIRR got the new diesels it was a bit more fun, as the various engines had different sounds. The GP38's had different sounds than the MP15's, and the various types of F's had all different sounds. There was a time when I can almost say, "Hey that was 619", as the F's did sound different from each other. Now with the new DM/DE30's, it's not the same, and I can barely even hear the westbounds with the MU type horns, unless it's a quiet cloudy night, or it depends on which way the wind is blowing.
I have lived in East Meadow my whole life and up until a couple of years ago I always heard the diesel horns from the Main Line. The nearest crossing to me is School Street just E/O Westbury Station. Whenever I heard the horns there was always a sequence of horns so I assume I also heard the horns in Mineola or the one before Hicksville. As a kid when it was all diesel we heard the horns often, then when the MU's came on we heard 'em less & less. When the tri-levels came we heard it even less as we couldn't hear the cab car whistle on the w/B trains. Then came the horn controversy and the horns were modified to be softer. Now I almost never hear it from my house and the rare times that I do hear it I assume its a NY&Atlantic train.
Before the double-deckers, those horns on the LIRR diesels could be heard for miles, depending on time of day and wind direction. Once while in Bayville, I could clearly hear one blowing on the Oyster Bay branch- but couldn't tell if the sound was coming from Locust Valley or Oyster Bay itself. Either way, it's several miles.
Likewise, there have been times I could hear the Main Line diesels going through NHP all the way from the Lake Success/LIJ area. That's about a mile and a half north.
The M1 and 2 horns are somewhat less harsh than the old diesels, but the sound can carry long distances at times, especially over water. F'rinstance, standing on the dock at the Bayside Marina, one can often hear the horns at Little Neck across the bay of the same name.
The horns on the double-deckers vary widely in volume. Yesterday while in Northport, I did hear a couple passing by on the Port Jeff line a good mile or so to the south.
Before the double-deckers, those horns on the LIRR diesels could be heard for miles, depending on time of day and wind direction. Once while in Bayville, I could clearly hear one blowing on the Oyster Bay branch- but couldn't tell if the sound was coming from Locust Valley or Oyster Bay itself. Either way, it's several miles.
Every so often I can hear the horns of trains on the LIRR Montauk line, which is about five or six miles from my house at its closest. Normally they cannot be heard. I would presume that there's some relationship between sound propagation and weather conditions, though so far I haven't tried to figure it out.
Temperature, wind, and humidity all play a role. Here's an excellent explanation; perhaps more than you need to know! Scroll down to 2. Atmospheric Effects
And that's Transit and Weather Together
Temperature, wind, and humidity all play a role. Here's an excellent explanation; perhaps more than you need to know! Scroll down to 2. Atmospheric Effects
Thanks for the link. If I read the graphs correctly, the distant horns should be heard most clearly in warm, humid weather?
Yes, and also add when there is a low-level inversion with some wind.
At night, the cooler, denser area carries sound better.
The LIRR used Nathan Airchme M-3R1 horns on all their older diesels until the GP38-2's were delivered.
The GP38-2's 250-271 came with Leslie S-3LR's. The MP15AC's came with Nathan Airchime P-5A's, as did GP38-2's 272-277. (The 277 was changed to a very soft Airchime Ltd. K5LA right after delivery. Many of the GP38-2's had Nathan M-3R1's once the Leslie horns crapped out -- which was usualyl rather quickly -- and in later years most of the GP38-2's got the Airchime Ltd. K5LA horns.)
The M-1's have a Leslie single-note S44 horn (440 cylces per second); the M-3's have a Leslie S-2M two-chime, as do the double-decker cab cars.
And the DE/DM30 locos have an Airchime Ltd. K5LA with NO restrictor in the horn manifold. When delivered, the horns were in a niche in the roof, halfway back from the front. That's why the sound went sideways and not to the front. They also had a solenoid controlled air valve....which was either full open or full shut. That's why the horns sounded so freaking loud. Once they moved them to the front of the unit, the sound went where God intended it to go -- ahead of the train on the tracks. And, there is now the pull-handle modulating air valve, so the engineers can regulate the horn sound...and piss off a lot fewer trackside residents.
The MBTA cab cars have horns that sound like ass. Do you know what those h0rns are? On one of the runs, it started off as a single-note, then became a double note half way through the journey, and by the time we got to South Station it was sounding at least three notes.
The MBTA F-40's sound nice.
I don't remember the MBTA GP-40MC's sounding anything special.
The Acelas sound like ass. The sound sonuds like it came from a digital loudspeaker.
AEM7
Many of the GP38-2's had Nathan M-3R1's once the Leslie horns crapped out -- which was usualyl rather quickly -- and in later years most of the GP38-2's got the Airchime Ltd. K5LA horns.)
And the DE/DM30 locos have an Airchime Ltd. K5LA with NO restrictor in the horn manifold.
So many of the GP38's had the same horn as the DE/DM30's do? For some reason they don't sound the same. At the beginning the DM30's seemed louder (for the reasons you stated), now they seem lower. But they also seem to have a different tone. The GP38-2's sounded a bit more musical.
Yes, many of the GP38-2's had the same horn that the DE/DM30's do.
Why do they sound different?
First, mounting location.
Second, the piping and valves used to sound the horns. The older, pull-handle modulating valves make the horns sound softer. Length of piping between the valve and the horn makes a difference too. Some horns are controlled by a solenoid valve right under the horn -- push button on the control panel. The horn is either full on or full off. No modulation there....
Third, the newer units, from the way they sound, probably do NOT have the "restrictor" inthe bottom of the horn. It's a 1/2' pipe plug with a 1/8" hole in it, to restrict the air flow into the horn and keep it somewhat civilized.
On ANY railroad horn, you take out that restrictor, and heaven help the eardrums of those around the tracks. Unless, of course, we're talking Leslie horns. They'd last about a month without the restrictor. Genuine JUNK!!
It's engineer discretion. I think the Chicago question has cropped up before. It's a bit like the speed limit on interstate highways. That's definitely driver discretion.
Some engineers will respect the local quiet zone laws, others insist on blowing nevertheness (and if cited, the railroad will always pull the FRA over the local ordiance). Of course, the engineer respect the quiet zone laws at his own risk, because that is against Federal law.
But, those who tamper with mailboxes do so at his own risk either. Mailboxes in the rural areas still get beaten up with a baseball bat. That's against Federal law too.
Complying with Federal law in rural areas is a matter of individual discretion.
AEM7
Safest bet is to blow anyway. You CAN be gentle on it. But I'd rather get in trouble for tooting gently than not tooting at all ...
<< Complying with Federal law in rural areas is a matter of individual discretion. >>
ROTFL! And you graduated from law school...when?
ROTFL! And you graduated from law school...when?
Those people with a law degree don't seem to understand that. Well they must understand that at some level, because most of them speed in autos. For instance, I know a Columbia law student who regularly operates rented autos at 85+ mph.
But when challenged, they show very poor understanding of Federal law compliance requirements, as understood by the law enforcement in rural areas.
AEM7
Mailboxes in the rural areas still get beaten up with a baseball bat. That's against Federal law too.
Actually, since the Post Office became the Postal [dis]Service 30+ years ago, it's only a violation of local laws - no less illegal, just a different set of statutes. (I'm a stamp collector as well as a railfan, hence my knowledge of that bit of trivia.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
True, but rifling its contents is still a federal offense.
As in other things, the crossing and the RR need an FRA waiver not to sound the horn. Some waivers specifiy times you don't sound some are 24/7.
Frequently waivers require different highway sinage, and four quadrent gates or better.
Or at least this is what I have heard, and I'm sticking to my story.
Elias
On the Lowell Branch (West Medford and Billerica), MBTA commuter trains do not sound whistles at crossings, and gates are not four-quad.
They have manual crossing guards (at least at West Medford) and the engineer does sound the horn, although not as forcefully as usual. The Downeaster blasts nevertheless, they don't give a hoot.
AEM7
The crossing guard is there (West Medford) only during AM & PM rush hour. The horn on commuter trains is NOT sounded. Trust me -- I ride past there twice a day, and have for 10+ years -- and at the Railf Fan Window during the morning. It's bells only.
Oh that's right, it's only the bells and no horn.
I don't remember if the Downeaster guy sounded the horn or if he was also bells only. I don't think Amtrak trains can do bells only (you lean on a button, it blasts the horn and the bells stay on for a little while after the horns have been blasted).
AEM7
Although I always knew it was Long-Long-Short-Long I never realized it was a rule.I had always assumed it was only a custom. So now I have a question. When a RR crossing is right at the end of the platform such as New Hyde Park or Stewart Manor the engineer usually gives one short toot when starting. Is that an exception to the rule or is the rule being broken?
It IS a viloation if they don't follow the rule. But here's something you'll find amusing - there's no specified DURATION for the long or the short. Some folks will do a long for a second and a short for half a second, then there's the creative types who do a long for MINUTES and a short for a few seconds. Clearly the railroads could borrow some excess supervision from the TA to write a specification. :)
Yeah, dontcha just LOVE it when some engineer thinks because HE is awak at 2:30 a.m., everyone around the tracks should be too!!!
Most of them try to be good about it. But there's some REAL malcontents on CSX. One particular offender who ran the local delivery runs who we all knew as "Dave the crank" got himself reassigned after we'd light up the phones in Selkirk every time he went through. Last I heard, he's working coal hoppers in Pennsylvania. Hasn't been so bad around here lately. :)
But it WOULD be nice if FRA could specify durations to that rule. Most of them have to wing it.
One time SEPTA ran a very late R6 back from Center City to Norristown (an extra run not on the schedule). There are four or five grade crossings along the way. The engineer, knowing it was 1:30AM, tapped lightly at the whistle 4 times prior to each crossing. The duration was not sufficient to sound across the crossing.
It was thoughtful of him; on the other hand one does hope the occasionally impatient motorist playing his stereo at a crossing will hear that. If an accident does happen, the dead motorist's family would undoubtedly sue and try to claim that the engineer didn't adhere to FRA regs regarding the whistle.
Most of the local crews here will do the tap tap in the middle of the night. And a few years ago we DID have someone who got greased at the crossing. Several townspeople testified that the horn had been sounded and the family got NOTHING. THAT was where we all learned that there is NO specification for duration of what a "long" or "short" is. He sounded the horn, we heard it, we heard the skreek and crunching of metal and the train dumping before the collision. We testified to same. End of story.
There's morons who blow across crossbucks with the stereo blaring who wouldn't have heard the train even if the engineer was SITTING on it. Only thing that matters in the absence of "two seconds=long, one second=short" or some "detailed specification" was that they tooted at all. But for the intended purpose, if the horn is still blowing through the crossing, then it's a bit too late, isn't it? :)
As for duration of the horn blowing....not many people realize it, but a lot of newer locomotives, especially those of the Santa Fe, as well as the Amtrak 500-519 GE's, came with an automatic horn sequencer. There was a floor button, so the engineer could kick it on, and it would do the LONG-LONG-short-LONG and keep repeating it until the engineer kicked the switch off.
The downside to that was...engine facility service personel would be sweeping out a cab, accidentally trip the horn to blowing, and not realize what they even did!!
Heh. Well, we've got everything ranging from old 38's to 100's rolling through here and I'd have to guess they still know how to play that tune manually. Like I said, most of them are QUITE considerate at night, and there's a small handful that you'd like to get your fingers around the necks of. :)
I sleep right through the whistles, which BTW I can hear more than ten miles away. Heck! I can hear the PRIME MOVER ten miles away!
But then it is quiet out here.
Elias
Same deal here ... plus they crank extra hard on the way north out of Selkirk since we're uphill from there. Run 8 all the way ...
The horns do sound louder in rural areas, probably because it is quieter there, and the open space allows it to carry. I remember staying with a friend in Vermont, and you could hear the horns (and the rumbling) from very far away.
There *IS* a [W] whistle post x feet before the grade crossing. The Whistle MUST start there and MUST continue through the crossing.
(The distance may vary on each RR according to the speed allowed on that line. (AFAIK))
But the intrepretation and the clarity of the sounds may vary by engineer.
Some, particularly at night may give some very tentitive toots and still be in compliance, and others may just hang on that cord with the distinct notes more imagined than heard.
Here BNSF crews are very good and distinct with the weesel. There are three grade crossings in our town, the outer two being exactly a mile apart. Therfore you can use a stop watch to time the train speed by just listening to the weesels.
Elias
Yep ... although we have a few guys here and there that will start blowing for all it's worth about five miles outside of town. (we've got two crossings about 800 feet apart - entire village is about a half mile at best) Others do their thing discretely. One of the nice things about here is that both of the crossings are minor ones and the "real" roads don't cross the railroad. One of the crossings is "Main street" but it's dead for traffic in the middle of the night.
In other words, on the mainline, you don't see cars crossing at all usually when you're on it, but rules are rules. Still, most of the crews are mindful that we're a sleepy little community and a handful of operators are a bit nuts. "Engineer Dave" had a way of pissing off the community to the point where people would wait for him and use flash cameras as he went through just to give the boy a hint. Didn't work. Dispatch got so tired of hundreds of people lighting up the phone in Selkirk that they transferred him out. :)
Hehehehe, we had a similar situation out here....and we got even with the noisy hoghead.
It only took a whole box of torpedoes....all under ONE run of his train.
He got the hint. He also probably had to change his underwear upon arrival at San Bernardino.
That's nasty. Heh. But effective. (poppity-pow-pow)
I believe I have read that Short is defined as 1 second, long is 2-3 seconds and Extra Long is 5 seconds.
Might want to send a copy of that to CSX dispatch in Selkirk. Then again, Conrail also believed there was no exact spec. Never heard of the "extra long" either, but then again I've seen MANY variations in interpretation of rules over the years so nothing would surprise me. Folks on the road have many variations on the theme as well and quite a good number don't know whether to toot or blow their nose. :)
...and the way some of the air horns sound, maybe blowing their nose would give better warning at a grade crossing.
The WORST horns I have ever heard were on the Union Pacific. Most of them sounded like wounded caribou.
There's one CSX loco that comes through here around 3am that has a horn that sounds like a STEAM whistle almost. I kinda like that one. But there's quite a variety to the sounds of them. Tells me a lot of leased equipment since railroads generally tend to have their own "sound" when they purchase.
In the old days of railroading, at least on the Reading, the railroad didn't leave sounding the whistle or horn up to the judgement of the engineman. The railroad posted whistle posts at predetermined distances prior to the grade crossing. Although the engineman didn't have to adhere to exact start of the whistle limit, the rule was that engineman sound their whistle or horn giving a LONG LONG SHORT LONG from the whistle post to the grade crossing. As mentioned prior, the engineman was to hold the last LONG until the grade crossing was reached.
The Reading also wrote a timetable order regarding the four grade crossings in North Wales. These four crossing beginning with Main Street and ending with Walnut Street going northbound could be covered with one LONG LONG SHORT LONG; however, the crossing at Beaver Street, just north of the station platform, was to receive the standard horn treatment.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
Its Long - Long - Short - Extra Long. The Extra Long is to be sounded for 5 seconds or until the crossing is clear.
The Extra Long is to be sounded for 5 seconds or until the crossing is clear.
Au Contrair! The last note is a -long- but is held until the locomotive is in the crossing.
Elias
"LONG - LONG - SHORT - LONG".....is also the horns used for
the los angeles blue and gold line trains ( green & red ) excluded!
I checked out the operation this morning. 4-4 car trains on the road, one 4 car gap in the yard. Inside and outside digital signs working, along with computerised announcements. L line strip map inside the cars not illuminated. Cars will be returned to the L during the overnight Sunday into Monday hours as conductors return, and these crews may or may not be qualified on the R143. They will not be ran on mainline M service (and 8 car shuttle service) since M crews who do not work weekends may or may be qualified but more importantly the R143 c/r position on an 8 car train is 4x4 and there are no conductor boards set up for this operation at any station on the M line. Due to the way the OPTO door controls are set up, upon arriving at Bway/Myrtle the operator opens the Manhattan side, closes, opens the Queens bound side, activates the "shuttle switch" so the doors will stay open, changes ends, then sets up all operations from the Queens end. The doors are no re-opened on the Manhattan side if a J arrives.
Here's a sign up for bids on eBay (NOT by me). Does anyone think it will sell for $2,500 or more?
Click Here for Sign
Maybe $100, most I would pay is $300. $2500 is a tad too much. Besides if I wanted a sign that big, I would buy the subway station with it. LOL. That sign won't even fit in my house.
I don't think 2,500 would cover the cost the construction of a new station. More like millions...
Some sick %$#@ will buy it. I'm sure my green Port Authority issued WTC id card will be worth something in a few years as well.
Everything subway related has value. Wonder what my redbird straphangers are worth? Course, I don't have the heart to sell them....
Notice how many bids this sign has gotten in the day or so since the auction began. I guess that answers the question.
Lets head down to 76 East Houstion Street (Lot 76) to see if they have any more signs like that.
You'd be nuts to spend that much on a sign like that.
I doubt if anyone will buy it.
Now if he went to http://www.bidnewyork.com/208/index.jsp?auctionId=208 he would get what he wants. Click on Signs when you get there.
I saw a Chambers St-WTC pillar sign that went for $2,400.
Don't believe me? check this out:
http://www.bidnewyork.com/lotdescription.do?auctionId=208&keywords=signs&lotId=1397&page=1
And you thought ebay buyers were nuts?
Man - they have a 2nd Ave street sign for over $300.00 - wow that's what I call appreciation - I bought similar 8th Ave sign for only $25 last year..
Maybe subway fanatics would pay that price. As for me, maybe $200 at the most.
Only someone from outer space would think the sign's worth that much. Check out the seller's name.
I saw Pouch Terminal Yard Engine 2 in the shop of the Pine Creek Rail Road at Allaire State Park (exit 31 of I-195 in Jersey). I'm posting this in case some of you may be interested.
logo.
I uploaded these and other shots from the three-foot gauge Pine Creek RR as well as some shots from Winslow Junction on a Webshots page, Around New Jersey.
Neat little engine. Diesel?
I didn't see any info on it.
Went looking myself, found ZIP ... the size of it suggests a steeplecab type electric, but saw no electrification signs in the picture (either shoes or pant) so whatever it is has got to be a mighty small engine if it's fuel-powered ... Pouch Terminal itself is the site of a power plant now.
Pine Creek RR is three-foot gauge and Yard Engine 2 was on a shop track, so it is relatively small. The little GE Army engine that was running (I got a cab ride) on Saturday is tiny.
It's all relative, of course. I rode on the two-foot gauge Maine Narrow Gauge RR 3 weeks ago, getting a cab ride on their GE 23-tonner.
And I just missed a ride on Southern Railroad of NJ's Lehigh Valley #414 Alco C420 yesterday cause I was up on NJT's track photographing the URHS coaches when the crew gave engine rides to the folks who had gathered at the SRNJ after leaving the scale model show at the Winslow fire house.
Internal combustion of some sort... originally gasoline, but I think since re-engined with a diesel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nice Mack locomotive. Too bad it did not keep it's orginal engine.
I received my Corgi Brooklyn PCC on Friday. (It's another of the Corgi standee-window cars, not authentic for BQT, but the PCC in Brooklyn colors San Francisco has standee windows, so I suppose we could call it a Brooklyn-San Francisco or BQT/Muni or BMT/Muni model.)
But the car does not have the Board of Transportation logo on it. Corgi has used the shield in the past, on the BoT GM bus a few years ago, so they do have it.
I'm hoping that the dealers selling them will get Corgi to issue decals or do something. It's hard to figure how something like that could happen and it's a terrible disappointment.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
It isn't so much of "Corgi having the logo" but rather which sweat shop in China did it on the 4507 buses, versus which sweatshop in China did the PCC's.
I'd bet they're at opposite ends of the Yangtze River and don't even speak the same dialect!!
It's a nice representation in 1/50th scale of SFMuni's car 1053 (ex-Philly PCC painted in BoT colors).
If you contact the NYC Model Transit Association, they may be able to get you a set of BoT decales in O scale.
To LF&AR:
I agree that the car is a handsome one. All have been good looking models. I have the entire set and even the non-prototypical Budweiser is striking. (I skipped the extra Philadelphia ones that weren't issued by Corgi, though. And it's curious that the non-prototypical Lionel City one seems to have become the most difficult to find nowadays.)
Thanks for the suggestion on the decals; I'm still waiting to hear back from my dealer and possibly Corgi in Chicago.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
More "bad old days" stuff goin un, gang attack at Chambers street IRT. Crime IS going up, if the stats don't show it, then it is MY gut feeling.
The city really SEEMS less safe these days.
You were the attackee? Any more details?
I saw it on the news. They said it was a gang attack on a few males, around 19-20 years old. There were up to 20 people involved. Fortunately a cop did get there otherwise who would've known if the victims would've survived. Definately a disturbing event.
(there were also quite a few shootings in Brooklyn and the Bronx, though not subway related)
The news also claimed Chambers st IRT isn't a busy station and has poor lighting. Well it used to be very busy but I guess after Sept.11th it isn't.
Umm every station after 1AM is practically deserted (before and after September 11), with the exception of Times Square and Penn Station. But with those I'm not talkin rush hour stuff at all...
It was never a very busy station compared to other stations on the line.
I remember quite a few times waiting on a packed platform at Chambers, after taking a 1 from Cortlandt and waiting for an express 2 or 3. Perhaps the station didn't get many people entering and leaving the system, but pre Sept.11th it was a busy transfer point.
Lets just hope it doesn't become like the Chambers st BMT, that's a scary station that even would freak Superman out!
>>> I remember quite a few times waiting on a packed platform at Chambers, after taking a 1 from Cortlandt and waiting for an express 2 or 3. <<<
Somehow I cannot picture you waiting for a train at 2:00 A.M. (the time of the attack) at Chambers or any other station.
Tom
2AM? That was no time near the attack.
Oops, never mind. I thought 9/11 was the attach that was being discussed, not the gang one. My fault...
well no, I've there between 9am and 6pm.
stuyvesant is nearby, perhaps you were there when school let out.
other than that, it's usually pretty empty there, though never completely deserted
If you think Chambers BMT is creepy now (and it is), you should have seen it when it was lit with incandescent light! This would be pre-1962-3, which is when it was converted to flourescent.
wayne
(I haven't read and probably won't read the rest of the posts)
They said it happened around 240AM, and yes there was a gang of young punks - the victim ran off and didn't file a complaint (rival gang?), yes the mezzanine at Chambers is dim bulbs in spots, not much going on down there at that hour. Doesn't surprise me at all.
wayne
One attack makes crime go up? Hello!? Have you been to Washington Square Park at 9? Drug dealers all over the place, somethin could happen there, or even anywhere. Cmon now, open your eyes.
Clayton wrote:
One attack makes crime go up? Hello!? Have you been to Washington Square Park at 9? Drug dealers all over the place, somethin could happen there, or even anywhere. Cmon now, open your eyes.
Hello!? Washington Square Park is crawling with law enforcement.
Mark
Maybe so, but they still hang around there. I've seen them with my own eyes and I might have even talked to one before...
Someone wrote:
Maybe so, but they still hang around there. I've seen them with my own eyes and I might have even talked to one before...
You probably have, but:
The risk of anyone being physically assaulted there is incredibly low, and the chances are very good that an assailant would be apprehended almost instantly.
Much less "questionable behavior" goes on there now than did years ago.
Strategically speaking, it's better (safer) to have any questionable elements confined in a small known area and under surveillance than to have them circulating in places like the Chambers IRT station.
Mark
yeah for now. I'm sure Wimpberg would be very happy cutting NYPD in half. Yo Mr.Manybucks this is a city government not your own personal business.
Cutting $$ like your pork is gonna hurt ppl. And if the subway fare goes to $2, you know who to thank. I do think fares should go up, but incrementally not like that, like $.25 every 5 years.
You live in Fairyland, right?
-Hank
and one is named PUCK.
Someone wrote:
And if the subway fare goes to $2, you know who to thank.
Inflation?
There hasn't been a fare hike in 7 years, and while 33% in that period does exceed the rate of inflation, it's not such an extraordinary rise when you consider that 11-for-10 and unlimited-trip fares didn't exist in 1995.
Mark
Maybe so, but I have never walked near or in that park and not been asked "smoke". I don't do drugs, but if I did, it seems that the "crawling with law enforcement" don't have too much of an effect there.
Well they're also somkin'em too.
It's not just one attack. We've been hearing more about this "type" of thing lately. It's quality of life crimes, like muggings, vandalism, and sexual attacks that seem to be most noticably on the rise. All the stuff Guiliani cracked down on, Wimpberg is just ignoring and letting fester. If we don't address this apparent increase of crime and just deny it, the bad old days aren't too far ahead from making a comeback.
Best advice, don't wander the notorious neighborhoods at 3AM.
bedford-styvestion, 125st, guy r brewer blvd.
Well ya sure can't blame Bloomie for not having the cash. When Clinton went away, so did those "100,000 extra cops" and the money to pay for them. You might not have noticed, but the economy is in the toilet, also beyond Bloomie's ability to fix and revenues are down because there aren't as many people paying taxes as there used to be.
You MIGHT want to get to a Dojo and learn some "karra-tay" and be able to fend for yourself. It'll bolster your own self-worth and the self confidence that comes from not having to hide under the bedsheets might also get you some nookie. :)
Or ... do what I do. I have a security contingent that I bring with me anytime I come to the city - my little bruin, a "seeing eye bear." Nobody messes with little Bruin ... since he carries a sawed off (bittn off?) shotgun in his right paw as he swaggers down subway platforms.
Protect your right to arm bears. :)
Kevin, stop already! LOL!! I almost soiled my pants...ROTFLMAO!!!
We gotta take Unca John out for a ride on the eastern division with all the trimmings. Then HIDE on him. :)
>>> We gotta take Unca John out for a ride on the eastern division with all the trimmings. Then HIDE on him. <<<
That's not Unca John, it's Master John.
Tom
I call everybody "Unca" ... makes them nertz. :)
Sutter on the "L"!
wayne
>>> It's quality of life crimes, like muggings, vandalism, and sexual attacks that seem to be most noticably on the rise <<<
That's some definition of "quality of life" crimes. Mugging and sexual attacks have always been considered violent felonies. "Quality of life" crimes refers to graffiti, allowing abandoned autos to remain on streets, littering, double parking, and numerous small things that many police departments ignore as not worth their time.
Tom
collecting abandoned cars is profitable. If the owner was shot dead with no reletives, it is sold for scrap metal and PD gets money. If it is seized and the owner wants it back he will be paying a HeLlOvALAta money for the storage fees. and if owner doesn't want it it goes to the junk yard as steel scrap.
Actually, the only person we've been hearing it from is you. At least one other person on this board has suggested youvdo something constructive to confront and resolve your own fears so you don't piss in your pants every time you watch the TV news. As that same poster also observed, a little self-confidence might get you some positive attention from a certain lady, who might even accept an invitation to check out your place...
In that case, Rudy Giuliani will have to run for another term (which he CAN do) in 2005. That wouldn't be such a bad thing. Giuliani did very well as mayor in some areas (not so well in others), but he did improve the quality of life and the overall safety of the city during his term. And his actions on September 11 2001 were nothing short of heroic.
wayne
One attack makes crime go up? Hello!? Have you been to Washington Square Park at 9?
Forget 9 PM, the drug dealers are there even at 12 noon. I'm amazed how they never cracked down at that park.
THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING
Lions and Tigers and Bears....Oh my!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
I have a feeling we're not in Kansas any more.......
Spam, oh my!! Do we even need the sarcasm? We might as well rename Subtalk to Rider Diaries (posters who go there frequenly know what I mean).
Isn't that your sanity falling?
Smoking some Mary Janes, eh Lou?
What is Mary Janes? It must be some good stuff. I need to smoke something. Seriously. This life business is getting to me.
...maybe I ought to go to Washington Square...
Guess you figured it already. 8)
Please don't assume I've taken it though. Just some terms I've picked up from my older sisters, ya know!? ;-)
Oooooh, I want to meet your older sisters, do they do just drugs?
NOOOOOOO!!! Well maybe one tried some weed at some point, but I really don't know... No, no, no, no!! Ah man! *(
It was a joke.
I feared I have said too much. Sorry, I get too carried away too much. I feel embarrassed!
Lay off subtalk for a day. People won't mind if you just keep a low profile for a little while. That's what I do when I realize I have irritated people on here.
Ok, I'll be back on Thursday. I'll think I'll lurk...
Ok, I'll be back on Wednesday. I'll think I'll lurk...
Geez...I forgot one thing. Who hasn't done a good smoke in a while. Bloomy has.... ;-)
The only thing I've inhaled is second-hand smoke! Talk about emphysema!
Are your older sisters available? ;-)
Heh.. no.
My eldest sister is in Chicago, my 2nd oldest has a b/f already. As for my twin, she's still deciding!
I shouldn't be reading this message, I have a girlfriend already *LOL*
*sigh* but my girlfriend is in Ohio and won't move out here.
My sympathies. I guess you need to move back to Ohio once you're finished with MIT.
We might even acuse Qtraindash7 for being a SUBURBANITE
WHAT IN GOD'S GREEN EARTH ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKIN'BOUT?Smoke? Drug dealers? Jesus H Christ......
>>> WHAT IN GOD'S GREEN EARTH ARE YOU PEOPLE TALKIN'BOUT?Smoke? Drug dealers? Jesus H Christ <<<
I saw postings about the first two, but not the third one. That was touched upon in the long "Subway Preacher" thread though. :-)
Tom
Lol, You know, you stay at subtalk long enough and I think just about every issue about anything possibe has been covered here (in between waiting for trains):
From White Caste to Wendy's to McDonald's to Krispy Creeme to SUV's to the evil bris to which celebrity looks hot to the "length" issue to what goes on in public restrooms to drugs to Jewish and other religious law to Chineese Buffets to people hating their furniture to dating rituals to just about every topic known to man (and the list can go on and on - there are not many topics I can think of that have not been covered here at one point or another). It's amazing we have time to talk about trains here with all the tangents......
Have we discussed the mating rituals of chimpanzees?
MY GOD!! Head for the hills...run for your LIVES!!!
;-)
No good ... there's crime up here too. Only difference is the perps rarely do it again. :)
And I stupidly thought that the Hills were alive with the sound of music...oh well...
You're thinking of the Catskills. Barumpum. :)
But yeah, we've got tunes too if you want 'em.
TOP 25 COUNTRY SONGS ON THIS WEEK'S WAL*MART HIT POORADE
25. Get Your Tongue Outta My Mouth 'Cause I'm Kissing You Goodbye.
24. Her Teeth Was Stained, But Her heart Was Pure.
23. How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away?
22. I Don't Know Whether To Kill Myself Or Go Bowling.
21. I Just Bought A Car From A Guy That Stole My Girl, But The Car Don't Run So I Figure We're Even.
20. I Keep Forgettin' I Forgot About You.
19. I Liked You Better Before I Knew You So Well.
18. I Still Miss You, Baby, But My Aim's Gettin' Better.
17. I Wouldn't Take Her To A Dog Fight, Cause I'm Afraid She'd Win.
16. I'll Marry You Tomorrow But Let's Honeymoon Tonight.
15. I'm So Miserable Without You, It's Like Having You Here
14. I've Got Tears In My Ears From Lyin' On My Back and Cryin' Over You.
13. If I Can't Be Number One In Your Life, Then Number Two On You.
12. If I Had Shot You When I Wanted To, I'd Be Out By Now.
11. Mama Get A Hammer (There's A Fly On Papa's Head).
10. My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Don't Love You.
9. My Wife Ran Off With My Best Friend, And I Sure Do Miss Him.
8. Please Bypass This Heart.
7. She Got The Ring And I Got The Finger.
6. You Done Tore Out My Heart And Stomped That Sucker Flat.
5 You're The Reason Our Kids Are So Ugly.
4. If the Phone Don't Ring, You'll Know It's Me.
3. She's Actin' Single and I'm Drinkin' Doubles.
2. She's Looking Better After Every Beer.
And the Number 1 Country and Western song is:
1. I Haven't Gone To Bed With Any Ugly Women But I've Sure Woke Up With A Few.
>>> 23. How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away? <<<
That sounds like a rip off of the ragtime blues song by Gaye Adegbalola, "How Can I Say I Miss You? (When I Can't Get You to Leave)" on the 1994 Saffire Album, "Old, New, Borrowed & Blue."
Tom
Priceless Unca Selkirk, absolutely priceless----and I can attest to that last title. I couldn't believe how bad some women look when they get out of bed. Really famine. I used to stay at my Inlaw's House over the weekend after Linda and I became engaged. (No, in the spare bedroom. It was different over 30 years ago). One morning I got up and out walked my Linda. I asked her how long she had been up and she had just gotten up herself. I couldn't believe it. She looked as attractive to me as she had the previous evening. I knew I was in love and that I had someone very special. There were others who were more striking in the evening, but none better looking in the morning. At any rate, a hell of a chart. Why not E-Mail me that list and I can have my own copy.
They aren't, but if you go up there, you have to be careful not to run over a doe, a deer, a female deer.
And even MORE careful not to throw it in reverse and finish OFF the damned rodents on stilts. :)
Better to use a shotgun and not ruin the car.
After the tenth dent, you don't notice anymore. :)
Yikes! The sky is falling!!
Yet again...;)
That's what happens when you use "Fox News For Dummies" as your primary news source.
Peace,
ANDEE
Fox news is infinatley better than CNN or MSNBC. It's biased, but at least it's openly biased.
I was speaking of Fox5 NY, our local mutation. Not the national one.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well atleast is is honest about the crime rate. The first 16 news stories (28 mins out of 30 mins) on the saturday night at 10 broadcast are blood and gore.
The one function that TV news performs very well is that when there is no news, they'll give it to you with the same emphasis as if there were.
Peace,
ANDEE
It isn't Moses' flood. NO, not that one. The one from † holy book.
Assuming you're talking about this story in Sunday's Post, apparently it happened at 2:15 in the morning, and the story goes on to say:
Police sources said all of the youths involved in the incident - both the suspects and the two victims - were affiliated with a street gang.
So there's a little more behind this apparently than just a random attack.
Still it IS a crime. Maybe not a random attack, but I'm sure people are just thrilled that gangs are back to hanging out in the subway.
The police do have to get the gangs out of the train and the platforms, or the "broken window" theory will start rearing its ugly head again.
My point was that, based on the Post's story, this may have been a dispute that was carried into the subway station from some club or other place in the area, and not something that began there and was just a random occurrance.
Yeah, soon those dumb-awful R-142's will get the same graffiti treatment our beloved R1/9's got. Hey wait a minute, maybe on those cars, that would be an improvement :o)
I don't remember much graffitti on the Jamaica R-6 and R-7 cars; out in the Eastern division it was much worse, with some of the R-7A and R-9 cars wearing murals.
wayne
I'm glad I never saw a graffitied R-7 or R-9 in revenue service. It would have been too depressing.
Carry a "personal security device". A stun gun would be good, and most people don't think of it as a offesive thing like they would of a gun (How often does a gun that was boaught with the idea of protection gets used in killing people because your pissed at them?).
Most of my friends (public school ones) carry varoius pocket/switch knives and other kinds of too. It's illegal in NYC (20 years at the most). Though not outside NYC (respectable friend in CT walk down the street with a spring loaded knife and no one every questioned it (including the arrest-happy local cops)).
That's a real mature response....
Agreed, sounds like Jr High School thinking. I wonder where he got the idea that you can get 20 years for simplying carrying a weapon? Even NJ wouldn't pass a law like that!
Well what else are you supposed to do? I have never wanted to carry weapons, but I can see why someone might want to. I carried a screwdriver wherever I went for a long time, mainly for dismantling computers but it was first acquired with the idea that if I were to be robbed again, someone might get it in the stomach. I don't think I would have had the courage to actually try to hurt the guy though. I am way too nice when it comes to physical damage. I don't understand how I have no problem ripping someone apart psychologically but I don't even want to begin to hurt someone with a simple screwdriver.
I have no problem running a certain Canadian over with trains, however. I also decided that if I were going to hurt him, it would have to be done using a train. Somehow. Either he's stupid enough to cream himself by T-boning my train, or I'd have to get people to hold him down to the tracks.
AEM7
Hey I don't like being told "come over here and whoop my white ass" by some 10 year old punk. You seriously have to be careful in NYC. I'am not joking. 12 years ago in a public high school (before the cops) if you were white you better carry something if you don't want to be mugged (or the other way of saing it "jumped"). Hey 4 weeks ago one of my buddys (indian) bike got stolen at chain/knife point. (jamaica hills). If the cops weren't in the schools I wouldn't be able to type this right now. Well atleast bayside high school suspends students more than hillcreast high school which has a higher crime rate that requires police intervention (check out the "school report cards on www.nycenet.edu).
John, it is then profoundly fortunate that you do not have to venture into the 'danger-zone'. For those of us who do work and need to cross the frontier, we'll just have to arm outselves tot he teeth and hope for the best.
so, anyone want to pitch on for the 'buy qdash some courage' fund?
He needs to see the Wonderful Wizard of Oz. I wish I could see the Wonderful Wizard of Oz too. Especially if I get to go with Judy Garland... she is so hot.
AEM7
Actually, she's cold - six feet under. A suicide.
Ouch. Pressures of fame, huh?
It's weird. Movies stars of today just do not have the same class anymore. I would rather see Grace Kelly, Judy Garland, Marilyn Monroe and Julie Andrews over the kind of crap they put on TV today.
AEM7
I think you can rent Pamela Anderson Lee getting it on with her boyfriend in some rental places...
Anyways what is it about her, everyone seems to think she's nice. I hate the way she looks. Okay, this is too off-topic to continue. AEM7
I didn't say I liked her especially...
She doesn't do much for me either. I can't figure out what turns men out of control when they see her. To me she's sexy and that's all.
Ewwwww ... she's had more GOH's than the redbirds. :)
LOL!
If it costs more than $14.95 count me OUT! (especially if they don't throw in a FREE Ginsu knife set!) :)
$3.95 would be mystical.
Carlos...that is a good one! LOL!
Yanno Doug,
Compared to most transit systems our
$1.50 fare is quite rather-- how do you say..
SupercalifragiliMYSTICALesque.
As far as the JOHN fund, it never hurts
to help a brutha who rides with a mystical RFM
(something plenty of us would go ballyhoo with!)
Keep laughing after December 15th...get yourself a really good picture of Roger Toussaint to throw darts at. Two bucks a ride.
'So wahhadayah want for thirty five cents...to live forever?'
Sure, $2.00 a ride, but thank heavens we've got
underpasses and bus-subway transfers...
Unlike Chi-town or DC where (IIRC) you pay a different
rate depending on the interval/distance traveled..
For $2.00 you can spend the DAY down there and go all over.
I hear ya, CI man.
If you can buy me 6 inches of height, I'd be ever so grateful! LOL!!
Just 6 inches of height? John, you're leaving yourself WIDE open here for some serious adult-humor (which I will refrain from as I assume that there are many at SubTalk still needing a tucking in at night).
I'm 5'6", and never wanted to be taller. It's funny you know how people's perception about height changes. When M and I met for the first time after we broke up over 9 months ago, she commented on how I am now taller. I am not. She just thought I was taller because she wanted to go out with me at that point... and isn't nitpicking about all my faults. Amazing what you can overlook when you're in love.
AEM7
Are you going to go back to Ohio ultimately and propose to M?
Sure, that will come with time, but I got a long wait ahead of me. I have to go to the RMV today to get a driver's licence, so I can actually get there in reasonable time.
AEM7
AEM7---Don't chicken out. If she is worth it go for her. Sometimes they only pass by once and you have to be able to reach out and grab. A Midwest girl is the best kind. I know. I married one.
Amen, Fred!
Awee!
Let's just hope his "buy me 6 inches of height" line
doesn't run light to his HEAD..... alas, I see where
Unca Douggie was ahem, POINTIN'... :)
lmao
>>> If you can buy me 6 inches of height, I'd be ever so grateful! <<<
If you are asking for 6 more inches don't waste it on height. :-)
Tom
Touche! Give that man a rim shot!! ;)
Hey, longer is not better. Ask any lady.
AEM7
Yeah, wider's better! Ask any of my 'herum'. ;)
>>> Hey, longer is not better. Ask any lady <<<
So that's what they told you? -- Very considerate. :-)
Tom
*L* Suffices to say that I've once heard this said about a Fedex delivery man who had like an 8" tool...
He's like the thickness of a chilli pepper... I didn't know that people came in that size before I met this guy, I couldn't even feel him...
AEM7
It's not how long you make it....it's how you make it long.
Peace,
ANDEE
Consider it done.
Naw! As we say out here in Lakerland, SSSSSLLLLLLAAAAAAMMMMMMDunk!!!
What do you say in Metsland? AAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWCrap!
Sorry, too tempting. :-) Make sure you tell Piazza thanks for clinching the 11th straight division title for us yesterday. And for an extra treat, we got to slap around the Mets some more today and we will have two chances tomorrow to do the same thing!
What can you say about a team that plays in Flushing?
I think back to 1969, when the Mets swept the Braves in the NLCS and won the World Series.
A man who knows his priorities...
Just between you guys and me I can tell you we have some pretty horny people on board and it is starting to affect me. Cut this out.
We can always talk about that rat-infested Montague St. tunnel.:)
Hey, Fred keep it in ya pants, will ya? ;)
Okay, I have to ask - is that 6" standing up or on your back?
Your stuck up on this height buisness. Being tall (out of the norm) is no fun. I'm 6'8" and I've been taller the the norm since birth.
Growing up:
I've been thrown out of the childern's section of the library.
Spending two days in the wrong grade (1st instead of Kindergarden).
I had to bring my brith certificate to see movies at child price.
I've always been at the back of the line.
Being picked on in school because I was big (you think your small so they pick on ya??)
Paid extra for clothes (to this day), is there realy that much more fabric when your inseam is 38" compared to 35" (don't say 3 inches).
Extra for shoes/sneakers.
Extra for suits and bags long enough to carry them.
Not fitting into airplane seats and now being charged for two.
Bitch working under trolley cars in the pit at BERA.
Always asked to change the light bulb
Always asked "how is the air up there"
Ducking to get on/off a subway car
Ducking just to walk in the station mez at 34th St (now 42nd as well).
Ducking to see out the railfan windown.
Forgetting about the centerline grab bars on the Washington Metro (ouch).
I could go on and on...
Were you ever asked if you play basketball? I was. Granted I'm about 6' 1" myself, but was approaching that height when I entered high school. My growth spurt came to a screeching halt shortly thereafter.
Yes, I played ball through college and gave two good knees to the sport.
15 years ago, someone 6'1" could still play guard on an NBA team. I don't think that's true anymore.
Then there was Tiny Archibald (sp). How tall was he? He had to be under 6 feet.
Ask yourself this question, ever since the Transit police became part of the NYPD, when was the last time you regularly saw ANY cops patroling the subway cars?...sometimes, I do see them patrolling the stations, but even thats rare. I hope maybe there are UNDERCOVER units that roam the subways......
A good question.
I'll answer it: all the time. I've seen transit police on lots of trains, on lots of platforms, in uniform. Undercover cops are supposed to be hard to pick out, so if you know they are in your car, they are not good enough at it.
I'm impressed with just how civilized the trains are.
Of course, if you are paranoid to begin with, or are phobic, then no amount of police presence will help you. Qdash's problems are beyond the ability of the police to help.
While on my trip to go backpacking in the Badlands of South Dakota recently,
I stopped in Chicago for about 30 minutes as I was passing by, to do some railfanning.
Parked near the Merchandise Mart Stop and rode around the loop once,
then headed back to the car and back on the road west.
Here is a link to the images I took:
http://subway.com.ru/chicago/
>>> I stopped in Chicago for about 30 minutes as I was passing by, <<<
That was some 30 minute stop which seems to include pictures from full daylight to the dark of night.
Tom
It wasn't really full daylight, got there right at sunset, the digital camera compensated for the exposure. If you look at any images where there is train movement you will see how blurred it is due to the long exposure.
-Larry
i will be there 2 shoot as many redbirds as possible ,& dont expect 2
see any in 2004 ............So i will not see any birds on the #2 at
all right ?? If so i do not waste a whole day waiting just 2 see one or 2 redbirds doing service on the #2 !!........right ??
( no railfan window no can shoot a video )
thankz if anyone has any info. ..............lol !
Unfortunately (for you and for me), no Redbirds are currently assigned to the 2. I haven't seen any reports here of stray Redbirds on the 2 either, so I'm afraid your chances are slim. The 2 does sometimes borrow equipment from the 5, so something may turn up. More likely is that a 5 will be rerouted along the West Side, effectively running as a 2. But it's pretty unlikely. Sorry. Go with the 4, 5, or 7. (If all you're after is a railfan window, some of the R-62A's on the 3 also have them.)
you mean the 5 diamond on the #2
also when does the #1 go back to its normal operation ??
No, I mean the occasional 5 train rerouted due to problems on the East Side or due to an unchallenged wrong lineup at Franklin, Nevins, or 149-GC. No Redbird 5 trains are scheduled to run on the West Side.
"also when does the #1 go back to its normal operation ??"
This Sunday, 9/15 at 12:01 am. The 2 will start running express again at this time. -Nick
B- by the day i arrive back home !! for 3 weeks woooopppeeee......!
There was a redbird 2 in 180 Street yard, or at least the front part had a (2) on it, some other parts had (5) on it.
There was one 5 train that came from (redbird) 2 service, now I don't know what happened to that 5 since it is still on the schedule.
Don't get concerned with how signs read in a yard. It could have been that way because t/o's drill cars from track to track in the yards. The signs conform when trains are prepared for road service.
There are NO MORE Redbirds on the No.2 Line. The last set ran about 2 weeks ago. If the R142's have more problems the replacements will be R62A's from the No.3 Line.
If you want to shoot Redbirds the No.4 Line has about 6 sets and the No.5 Line half of the fleet is still redbirds and the No.7 is mainly redbirds.
There was Livonia R62a set used on the 2 line today.
Does anyone know how often the subway cars are cleaned? ie. washed on the OUTSIDE? Is the frequency decided by the specific yards themselves or is there a systemwide schedule. Has anyone noticed that the R-142a's are really dirty on the outside lately and the R-142's for the most part are pretty clean? Let's not even talk about those brakes....There has to be something wrong when the whole car shakes and groans louder than a whore in church
SM inspection is usually precluded by a car wash and a HVAC wash (on Redbirds.) CTA cleanings are more often when cars are stored overnight...CTAs do rubbish removal and graffiti eradication when we inspect cars. Don't even think of getting me started on the rest of the R142 problems....TA bought a 'bill of goods' with these trainsets and i can assure you that i have never seen vendors so very busy. Heh heh heh.
Generaly the trains are cleaned once a week. Recent water restrictions have cut this down.
Car wash logging right now is a CI 'tit job.' The other end...CIs trying to rebuild the carwash while it is inactive.
Can't wash them in Carnarsie since they use the wash track for layups. That must be a great job from Carnarsie to CI for a wash and back. Wash and a Blow??
I'll leave that alone.
They'll probably get the washer running again soon - after all, with all those leaky slants and Noah not having picked the L, I could see not wanting to run water and soap through all that duct tape prior. Now that there's cars out there that don't leak, they might want to run a little water now. :)
I like the term I gave for the Corona Yard car washer: bird bath.
On September 11, Amtrak will observe a “moment of remembrance,” and is a protocol to be followed nationwide, Cliff Black tells us. He’s an Amtrak spokesman in our national capital.
All engineers will sound their locomotive horns a moment before 8.46 a.m. EDT. This coincides with the moment of silence being observed in New York City.
Where practicable, employees would cease their normal activities at 8:46 a.m. EDT to observe one minute of silence. This could include, for example, ticket collections and food service activities aboard trains and ticket sales activity at stations.
Conductors on board passenger trains, and a designated station employee at all staffed stations, will announce over the PA system just prior to 8:46 a.m. EDT, that everyone is invited to join in one minute of silence in remembrance of those who lost their lives on September 11, 2001.
He said memorials in major stations will also occur, beginning Monday, September 9, when memorial wreaths will be placed in major stations for the duration of the week. The stations are in New York City, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles.
Posted in shop tomorrow I promise
One noticeable result of September 11 has been a major increase in business travelers on Northwest Corridor trains, especially midweek, said Scott Hurd, an Amtrak station agent in Portland, Oregon’s Union Station.
“We have had a good season, and we see a number of cruise ships in Seattle now using The Cascades trains to get their passengers to and from Portland.”
Hurd added, “I don’t have any paperwork to prove it, but I sense a major increase in sleeper reservations since September 11.”
Those would be on the Portland-Chicago Empire Builder and the Seattle-Los Angeles Coast Starlight.
Another bright spot for this fall, Hurd said, will be serving Seattle Seahawks football games. The Seahawks have moved into their new stadium, which is just a few steps from Seattle’s King Street Station.
“You could tell the day the season ticket holders got their Seahawks schedules because the immediately reserved seats on the Talgo trains.”
Hurd said that neither September 11 nor a somewhat shakier season has hurt the volume of Seattle Mariner baseball fans using the trains. The Mariners’ Safeco Field is a block south of the new football stadium. In fact, Amtrak trains, loud horns blaring, call beneath the baseball field’s movable roof when it’s open.
As with most airlines, business dropped off drastically in Portland after September 11, especially on the Portland-Seattle shuttle. Hurd thinks Amtrak picked up a lot of the slack. Now, Horizon Airlines, which operates a shuttle about every 15 minutes, offers bonuses for any delays of more than five minutes clearing security, and they just started offering free parking for business commuters.
On the Talgo trains, a quiet area has been establish, complete with computer plug-ins.
I took a vacation just like that not long ago. Ny fiance and I flew into Portland, then rode trains up the coast to Bellingham, Washington where we caught the Alaska state ferry and sailed to Juneau. The train station in Bellingham is right across the street from the dock, making the transfer very convenient. The train runs along the shore of Puget sound for a lot of the trip, with beautiful views of the scenery, the Tacoma Narrows bridge, and bald eagles from time to time. The Talgo trainsets are very nice, too.
Mark
Interesting information. Did your source, whatever it is, mention anything about the Sounder commuter trains?
A special Amtrak train operated from Washington to New York last Friday (September 6), carrying about 240 members of Congress for only the second joint session of Congress ever to be held outside of Washington.
Vice President Dick Cheney presided over the meeting in Federal Hall National Memorial, which was built on the site of the original New York City Hall, where Congress once met before they felt they would rather be in Philadelphia – for 10 years while the swamp on the Maryland-Virginia border became the District of Columbia.
No official business was transacted at the ceremonial gathering; it was mostly speeches observing the terrorist attack anniversary.
Reports said it looked like a Clocker, made up of Amfleet equipment. Several Metroliner coaches were transferred back to Washington from Maine’s Downeaster a fortnight ago to equip a “special operation.”
Old News, they used Metroliner equipment because they didn't feel teh Acela equipment was reliable enough to get them "to the church on time".
BTW, the leadership flew in to NYC.
If an X crossover was made just south of ocean parkway, then Brighton local trains can terminate south at Ocean Parkway and have a relay team take them down, or send trains to West 8th Street and have a normal relay. It would give the Express and local two distinct terminals, and bring the Q line a little closer to Coney Island.
There's an x crossover just north of Ocean Parkway. If they really wanted to run trains to this station, it's possible today. However, there are no crew facilities at O.P., which is why trains are ending at B.B.
However, there are no crew facilities at O.P., which is why trains are ending at B.B.
So what. There are no crews quarters at 205th Street !!
Or Ave. X....hmmmmmm
And both locations are not crew change points.
Put uo a temporary shed at the end of the platform with a few portapotties and your all set
Passengers should come first not the help
That's because the crew quarters are at Bedford Park Blvd. where the crews for the D change.
Peace,
ANDEE
What already has been done is the way it is going to be till the project is over. The TA would need to place supervision at Ocean Pkwy & at Brighton Beach just for a one station extension. A total waste of money.
Gents
TfL report the following lines affected by engineering work this coming saturday which will have some effect on our trip.
.............
Met, no service Harrow on the Hill to Uxbridge,nor East of Baker Street.
Picc No service South Harrow-Uxbridge,however this does mean we will use the North to South crossover at South Harrow in public use!
.
Circle, No service Baker Street-Farringdon,trains crossing inner rail to outer rail at Farringdon NOT in public use..
Ham&City No service East of Edgware Road so the Liverpool Street to Aldgate East curve (short cut!) not in use so all our moves via Tower Hill or Mile End.
.
See you Saturday
Rob
The Baker Street-Farringdon closure, effecting the Met, Circle and Hammersmith and City, is in effect every weekend for quite a while - it is to do with the rebuilding of Kings Cross St Pancras station. I don't know what is up with the Uxbridge branch, but it must be fairly major to close the line completely for the weekend. I hope this won't spoil Simon's plans for Saturday completely.
Even if they shut the whole sytem down we would still do the tour on roller skates.
Simon
Swindon UK
The whole system WILL shut down when the fire brigade go on strike....(except perhaps the surface bits)
Rob....
Glad I am in the fire protection business :)
Simon
Swindon
Wow, there's actually quite a few people turning up to a "Subtalk London Field Trip". It's amazing what the internet can do.
I've never yet done a Subtalk field trip (except with chuchubob at CMSL, and that doesn't count since I wasn't in my hometown). Time to do one?
AEM7
You and anyone else are welcome to join us this Saturday:)
Simon
Swindon UK
Is that when they take the phone off the hook and ask everyone for their shoe size?:)
That sounds like the original 1863 portion.
Obviously, I can't join you guys. I was wondering if you guys can do me a favor. If you guys happen to stop at Earl's Court, could one of you take photos of the old destination boards? I know they are planning to renovate that station, and I don't know if they are going to replace the boards with LED ones. Thanks.
I'll do my best to remember! I was last at Earl's Court in May, and the historical relic was still in use then.
Thanks, you're the man. Hopefully, they'll renovate the station and keep the boards. But they apparently took them out of the tube lines with them, so they'll probably replace them since they are more complicated to operate.
Not to worry I am there tomorrow.
Simon
Swindon UK
Give my regards to Earl's Court. That was my home station in 1978.
There's got to be some kind of story behind these photos. What happened to theses trains? It happened at the Fresh Pond Road "M" station. I found these photos on this site in the R27-30 section, and the captions read, "Destroyed/damaged by fire at Fresh Pond Road, 1976. At least 8236 was repaired and returned to service." The photos were taken at the yard on the bicentenial - July 4th, 1976. So anyone know what happened here?
Amazingly - this is one of the trains that were burnt, back in service at the end of it's life at Rockaway on the C Line I guess the damage looked worse than it really was to be able to restore this car to service!
I don't know the answer, but wasn't that the timeframe when Metropolitan Avenue burned? Then those cars might have been at the platform at the time of the fire.
That is what I thought. The Metropolitan Av station still had a wooden platform and that is what burned 9and spread).
Ah, yes that's right. The caption said fire at Fresh Pond Road, so I didn't put it together with the Metropolitan fire. You are right, It probably is the Metropolitan Ave fire train. How did that start? I know it was a woodened platform.
Anyone know how they handled service when they were rebuilding the Metropolitan station? Did the M trains terminate at Fresh Pond Road for a while?
Chris
TA probably had 2 single track shuttles between B'way-Myrtle and Fresh Pond.
I thought the fire which gutted Metropolitan Ave was in 1979, not 1976. Here's a picture of Metropolitan Ave in 1979. The station looks as it did prior to 7/4/76, the day those burned R27 photos were allegedly taken:
Here's the station in 1980. Notice how extensive tha damage was:
Hmmmm ......
"Hmmm...." is right. Back to the drawing board. I guess we got to start with the original question about the "Fire at Fresh Pond Road station". So anyone know what the story is from the burnt train that burnt some time in 1976 at Fresh Pond Rd station from the original post in this thread (as it seems that it's not the fire that happened at Metropoitan)?
BTW, in the post above, it's cool to see an R32 "M train". I remember riding them occasionally in the early 80's there.
The fire at Metropolitan Ave. station was absolutly in 1976. I got hired by the TA in 11/79, while the station was in the process of being rebuilt.
Well, that clears that up.
Yes it does.
Well yesterday was my first day on the L. Right off the back I had R143 as a matter fact I had R143's the first three out of five od my trips. They are nice handling cars. The first trip I took it easy even thouse I had ta TSS on board. It's been over a year since I was on the L line so I ask for the TSS. By time the third trip came around I was coming into station faster. I started to trusted the Brakes alittle more. Over all it was a good day on the L, the only thing that barther me was my had from the controller. Well it off to the J today.
Robert
The wrist shake is part of the design apparently. I took a little handle time while they were still in testing and it was anything but something I'd want to deal with on a long run. The hump behind it against the window makes it more awkward than it should be, but at the same time it lets you rest the arm on it while you're rolling. I really didn't care much for it though. Good thing I'm not a leftie even if Sea Beach Fred thinks I am. :)
Do the t/o's on the L line challenge the timers in the tube with an R143 the same way they do with an R40M/R42?
I do about 45mph in the Tube, that with R42's or R143's.
Robert
Do you operate on the 'J' often? I am always taking photos on that line. You have probably seen me before. lol
And as stated before. I see it in the preview so I guess it will be fine after its been posted.
I just had my first day on the J in will over a year. I only have it on Mondays, in the mid-PM's I start at around 3:30pm at ENYD.
Robert
Who was your TSS, LoBianco (aka LoBo?). He's a good guy and is a bit of a buff.
Cleveland.
Robert
Good luck on your new pick. I went High Tech myself for the Sept 15 Pick. All I should see this pick is R33's and R142/ R 142A's.
So would you like a copy of BVE to play on the display? :)
Yes, That would be nice. If I do any station overruns on the game the Last stop announcement will go off.
Dave, what line, shift and RDOs? SubTalkers will want to ride with you!!
Hay what about me. I work on the L Thursday-Sunday and Mondays on the J. I play with the Hi-Teck toys also. I work in the PM.
Robert
I'll be on the No.6 Line T/W off. I'm also working the PM Tour.
I have a question. Why did they position the controller all the way to the right? I may be right-handed, but at times I would like to use my left hand so my right can have a break. My hands can sweat real easily after holding something for so long. R142 controllers are in the center so either righties or lefties could operate them. Also I know some operators like to use both hands on the controller.
I don't have a Clue as to why they did it this way.
Robert
Lefties are children of the Devil. Didn't they try to fix you in Catholic Schol?
Hey Im a leftie. My mom tried to change that when I was learning how to write (And Failed). The teachers in my Catholic school rarely said anything. But lefties tend to be more creative :p
>>>Lefties are children of the Devil.<<
That's pure bullshit. And insulting to boot!
Peace,
ANDEE
It looks like the "D" train on the express tracks is within inches of another train in front of it. Trains aren't normally allowed to get that close to another train in front. Can anyone explain this picture?:
Chris,
I asked this same question a while back on this site! There were some very interesting theories...will be curious what comes up this time around.
Could it be a rescue train similair to what they did when the #4 train CACHOW in the tunnel ???
I was about to suggest that the express track was being used for storage, like the Queens Boulevard express tracks past 71st are on weekends (and like the 4th Avenue express tracks south of 36th were until yesterday) -- but then I saw the faces at the railfan window. Hmmm.
My bet? An Arnine laid down on the express track, trains behind were trying to "close up" to make room behind. So many geese in the front glass suggests that the railroad DIED that morning or afternoon.
Perhaps there was a backup on the express track due to "congestion". I was on an A train once in March of 1978 which pulled up right behind a CC just before Hoyt-Schermerhorn. I still remember the conductor's announcement: "Change for the CC local at Hoyt-Schermerhorn for all local stops. This train will run express to Lefferts Blvd." It was rush hour, btw.
Hey Kevin,
With the equipment being used and the time your were on the job,
was that you that laid the egg with the arnine? >G<
BTW, it would be AM peak, as the QB were peak direction only.
;| ) Sparky
Heh. What's funny about that run was the Arnines would TROT in Brooklyn. When I had a train lay down, it usually laid down somewhere on 6th Avenue. Often on the hill coming up to 34th northbound. They'd get over the bridge just fine and then get winded on the dash from 4th to 34th, dunno why.
But ya had the D and the QB vying for the track into Prospect, then the conga line into DeKalb ... dunno why, but they'd always drop the homeball on the Brighton so trains coming up fourth Avenue could roll into DeKalb to clear a B to blow past DeKalb. So it wasn't unusual at all for the railroad to just lay down from Parkside into DeKalb in the mornings. That's why we'd key by (same old, same old) and inch up to our leader and I thought nothing of that shot once I realized it was Parkside.
Never laid down on the railroad THERE though.
Could be a host of ideas:
1) That train in front may have broken down, or the train that's out of the picture could be the train doing the rescuing. Only thing that's rebuking that is that the safety chain is still up on the D.
2) There could have been a total shutdown in service. Note the T/O (then M/M) on the QB is relaxing and the T/O on the D is nowhere to be found.
Sometimes, trains will key red signals up to the next train to allow a train(s) behind it to let passengers off. Back then, T/O's keyed by red signals all the time without permission. The rule was never enforced back then, so maybe the T/O just kept going until he couldn't go no more.
'Tis all speculation.
1) That train in front may have broken down, or the train that's out of the picture could be the train doing the rescuing. Only thing that's rebuking that is that the safety chain is still up on the D.
Moreover, if the D were the rescue train, the pax probably would have been moved back from the railfan window by this point.
Why were T/O's called M/M's back then??
BTW, I like the Transit Authority logo displayed there. A lot better looking than the MTA uses now.
I would believe that the term MotorMAN was phase out when woman began to fill the position. Train Operator is gender neutral. I worked for Con Ed for many years, the title a person would begin with in the construction department was General Utility Man usually refered to as GUM. That was changed to General Utility Mechanic (keeping the acronym), as the job was opened up with equal oppurtunity.
Thanks for the explanation.
I think it was silly to change that anyway. When I think of Moterman, the word 'man' appears in my mind as a race or people as in mankind. I guess everyone doesn't get my drift!
I can add this. Shortly ahead of Parkside and prior to Prospect Park is a switch where the local and express merge. There may be a rush hour back-up behind where the express and local merge and both of the trains are being held with probable train in front of them waiting to merge and head into Prospect Park.
I see an indicator light on on the side of the local QB. So there doors were open to the Parkside station
Key by was never prohibited in the rule book, just by some bulletin, right?
No, key by was allowed and even encouraged. 1944 BOT rulebook:
36m) WHen an Automatic Block Signal indicates "STOP", the train
must be brought to a stop and may proceed after it is known
that the automatic stop arm is in the clear position. A train
proceeding by an automatic block signal indicating STOP MUST run
at slow speed to the next signal, prepared to stop within
range of vision, expecting to find the track occupied, a broken
rail, open switch or other obstruction in the block.
The rule book does not discuss insulated joints and how to key
by the signal.
The interpretation of a red automatic was thus identical to
mainline railroads. It was not until radios were deployed
that it became feasible to require permission for every key-by.
I'd say this pic was taken on the Brighton Line. A N/B D expess train is passing a local N/B QB train making a station stop.
Parkside Ave. northbound platform. The R32 D train keyed up to the R1/9. That kind of thing was legal in those days.
but why would the express train key up to it? Doesn't make sense.
I am starting to think it's on the local track. Would make sense for the QB to key up to be able to unload at Parkside Ave.
There is a delay in service, as stated the T/O for the local is relaxing and the Express T/O is no where to be seen. The 2nd D key'd a few signals to close up on his leader as close as possible. This will ensure he is the 2nd train into the tunnel instead of waiting for the local to go after his leader.
If you think that R-1/9 train is on the local track, you need glasses.
I agree!
The R-1/9 is AHEAD on the express track. See the color of the gates. Painted not stainless.
THAT'S debateable.
Peace,
ANDEE
You can also see a trigger box. Dead giveaway it's an R-1/9.
BTW, pantograph gates on the R-32s were also painted. It's just that the ends of the gates became scuffed very quickly.
Could be a 10 ya know ... unlikely, but possible.
thanks guys, but my eyes are fine. i was just grasping at straws there (like the rest of us are) trying to figure out what else goes on in that area.
>>> If you think that R-1/9 train is on the local track, you need glasses. <<<
Maybe I need glasses too, but from the comparative size of the pantographs, the train on the right seems much closer to the camera than the D on the express track, which supports the idea that it is on the local track.
Tom
No, that R9 is definitely on the express. If you take another look at the pantograph it veers inward. For that train to be on the local track, the pantograph at the angle that it is shown would have been MUCH closer to the camera lens.
That and physics comes into play. Look at the trigger & cap. You couldn't possibly shoot the "on side" (T/O's cab side in this instance) of the train at that angle without the "off side" getting in the way.
>>> If you take another look at the pantograph it veers inward. <<<
I'm sorry, I do not understand what you mean by "veers inward." It looks like a standard R9 pantograph.
>>> For that train to be on the local track, the pantograph at the angle that it is shown would have been MUCH closer to the camera lens. <<<
That would depend very much on what lens was being used. The size compared to both R32s is larger, indicating it is closer than either of them. The D appears larger and therefore closer to the camera than the QB, but all, and the background buildings are in focus indicating a fairly long lens.
>>> You couldn't possibly shoot the "on side" (T/O's cab side in this instance) of the train at that angle without the "off side" getting in the way. <<<
Again, I am not understanding you. This is clearly the off side of the R9.
I am not certain that this R9 is not on the center track, but I am also not convinced that it is.
Tom
I may know nothing about this picture, except that there is a train DIRECTLY in front of the R32 D train. That odd sight is what prompted me to start this whole thread. If only the photographer had moved a few inches to his right ....
Yeah, this guy is perplexing me. He takes a picture of a local and express train side-by-side (which isn't a particularly strange sight), but ignores the strange incident (maybe not so strange back then as it is now) of two trains being practically bumper to bumper.
Well, he may have very well taken a pic of the R-1/9 but for whatever reason it didn't come out or perhaps that pic got lost or damaged in the many years between the time it was taken and the time he began to scan in the pictures (if that pic was taken in 1969, it was maybe 25 or so years before scanners were even available to the general public)
There is a switch and merge just ahead at Prospect Park and a back-up perhaps at rush hour.
>>but why would the express train key up to it? Doesn't make sense.<<
That was the old days when motormen did that kind of thing. It's taboo today.
>>I am starting to think it's on the local track. Would make sense for the QB to key up to be able to unload at Parkside Ave.<<
The R-1/9 is on the express track, case closed !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm not sure but is he car out of frame on the right an R1-9? You can see the door-opening button. My guess is that the D is a rescue train.
the picture is from when R1/9 were used during rush hour service on the D. 1967-1974?. The route signs also give a hint to the date too.Pre 1973?
R1/9s were gone from the D before 1973.
Looking at this again, i think the R1/9 is actually on the local track(looking at how the faces of those in the railfan window on the D). I think that the shoulder of the T/O of the D is in the window.
Did the R1/9's ever run on the Franklin Ave Shuttle?
Or maybe that train was being taken out of service, and it needed to be laid up on the local track past the switch and before the Franklin Ave station?
BMT Standard on Franklin until 1969. R11 followed until about 1972. I think R27/30 were used after 1972. I do not remember R1/9 on Franklin.
IIRC, wasn't there a time when the Frankie Scoot was served by
IRT LowVs with extenders for the gap?
;| ) Sparky
You are definately right, but I sure don't remember when exactly.
I think it was the late 1950's!
IRT cars with the extenders were running on the Myrtle in the '60s.
'Cause I was on them. Had to be 63, 64, 65 or 66.
Elias
..."IRT cars with the extenders were running on the Myrtle in the '60s."...
Yes, these were the Qs, which were initially BMT rebuilds of BRT
BUs in the late nineteen thirties. Trucks were from IRT composites
or MUDC, when they returned to the Myrtle after service on the
IRT Third Avenue El in Manhattan & Bronx. Also due to weight
factors only ran in express service in peak direction & light in
opposite. Never had extenders while in any BMT or IRT service
on these cars.
;| ) Sparky
Late 50's.
Thanks Guys,
I knew they operated out there, but just didn't remember when and
they were absent on the equipment roster posted.
:| )Sparky
Sparky, I did a little research on this...
Joe Cunningham states in his book Interborough Fleetthat IRT LO/V's were
used on the Franklin & Culver shuttles between 1959 and 1961.
There were apparently 13 cars involved...
4581,4583, & 4585-4605
I hope this helps!
Thanks Karl,
I knew the IRT Low Vs served on the BMT scoots, just was unsure of the dates.
;| ) Sparky
HERE'S a picture of one of the beasties.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes ANDEE,
At the entrance to the Malboune Street curve.
I meant to say Empire Boulevard, to be politically correct.
Thanks, ;| ) Sparky
Don't they look really different with those side extensions?
They looked wierd, IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
I too do not recall ever seeing R-1/9s on the Franklin Shuttle (which of course doesn't mean that a set never did operate there)
My memories of the FS go back to 1967 when I would see either a 3-car set of R-11s or a single R-11 with a pair of R-32s. After the R-11s were retired it was mostly 4-car sets of R-32s, though toward the mid-70s, I would see an occasional R-27/R-30 set. I moved from NYC in 1976, and when I next saw the shuttle in 1991, I think the R-68s had already taken over
I never saw an R1/9 on the shuttle. The only rolling stock that I can recall observing on the Franklin Av. Shuttle from 1965 to 1969, and I observed the rolling stock on most school days back then, was the R34 and it was always signed up as #7.
From the information in the picture, one can only guess as to what's going on.
QB is in the station with customers aboard, doors closed and reverser thown.
D is abreast of the station with customers aboard and reverser is thrown. There appears to be an older train (R-9 or R-10) in front of one of the consists.
Assumptions: Delay in service and trains have keyed by the signals. Not likely a rescue train. Most rescue trains are empty and would have supervision aboard.
QB is in the station with customers aboard, doors closed and reverser thown.
Assumptions: Delay in service and trains have keyed by the signals. Not likely a rescue train. Most rescue trains are empty and would have supervision aboard.
I'll go along with the idea that all service was out along the local and express lines. Except for one thing: why would the QB's doors be shut, if indeed that's the case (I really can't see them)?
The 2nd D just key'd by so it will be the 2nd train into the tunnel (through the Prospect Park interlocking) instead of waiting for his leader and then the local train.
By being in the block with his leader doesn't that ensure they can't reset the switch for the local train to go in front of him when service is restored (if we assume it is disrupted).
"I'll go along with the idea that all service was out along the local and express lines. Except for one thing: why would the QB's doors be shut, if indeed that's the case (I really can't see them)?"
I don't know why the doors would be shut. Perhaps the train had received a signal aspect permitting it to move. THe only clue that the doors are closed is no illuminated guard lights. Perhaps it's a burnt out bulb, though.
Looks to me like the doors on the QB are open. The R-32s only had one guard light on each side per car, and in the picture it looks like there's a light shining right about where the guard light would be, at the rear end of the first car. Also, if you look really carefully at the door immediately behind the T/O's cab, you can make out what looks like the top end of the railing on the end of the seating bench.
The picture was dated in 1970, when the R4/R6's were still running on the D. Perhaps that train in front of the R32 D is one of those beasts, in some sort of mechanical trouble. That would explain why the QB on the local track appears to be preparing to leave the station, because the dead R4/6 isn't blocking the switch from the local to express track farther north. I'm just a little shocked that trains would creep so close and completely ignore the signals.
OK, this is getting a bit annoying (don't mind me) ... it wasn't unusual back then for DeKalb to back up. I'd be willing to bet than nothing laid down, nothing needed to be rescued, but that DeKalb was merely having a typical bad day with trains backed up. In 1970, you'd key by up as close as reasonable and "tighten up" the railroad. The Arnine ahead might well have been sitting there waiting for another QB to clear ahead of it into 7th Avenue. Wasn't unusual for geese to come to the front glass to see why they weren't moving. I note an absence of frustration on many of the faces so it does appear like a typical morning rush northbound if that's Parkside in the shot ...
Kevin, as a rider of the Brighton back in those days, to me yours is the most reasonable explanation of that picture. Dekalb used to back up even more often pre-Chrystie.
I spent many a morning inching up back in those days. But hey, my explanation's no fun. Maybe what's really ahead of that D train is really a UFO disguised as a redbird and the mesmerizer ray is on along with the guard lights. :)
Hey Kev, maybe that's your prewar train in that pic.:)
Hey Steve B,
GMTA
;|) Sparky
If it was spring of 1970, I hadn't gotten my letter yet. But the conga line WAS typical of the line around 8am ...
and whom better to know, then possibly the T/O of the arnine set.
;| )Sparky
The QB train may have his doors closed. But the T/O certainly isn't ready to move. If you look closely, the master controller is not depressed, which means the train is in a full service position.
It looks like everyone is looking at that mystery train, including the T/O on the QB, and probably the T/O on the D train as well. My guess is that something was wrong, and some kind of announcement was made, which is why the railfanners seem to have their attention focused on the mystery train.
But as Train Dude said, if a rescue was being made, supervision would be present. In the year 2002, a rescue train would not get that close to the BO'd train without supervision, nor would Command Center tell the rescue train to get so close without supervision. In the year this picture was taken, a T/O might've decided to key up to the BO train, or even been instructed to until supervision arrived.
The mystery continues.
Seriously, not a mystery at all if you knew how operations then were. That QB was waiting for a diverge since it had to go over to the same track the other two were on. If you're sitting at a double red, no point in closing up or releasing air to just sit there. Strikes me in all seriousness though as the typical DeKalb conga line of those days.
TA came up with a bad idea a few years earlier that since the Brighton was a layup yard anyway in the morning, they ran an NX south from Brighton and up the 4th avenue in hopes of eating into that congestion. Only made things worse at DeKalb so it lived a short life. Now that they're running fewer trains apparently, you don't get the conga lines like we used to back then I'd have to guess ... but rotting there at that interlock was NOT unusual in the early 70's.
Not too many R10's were used on Brighton. It was rare.
Yes R1-9 is likely.
>>Not too many R10's were used on Brighton. It was rare.<<
R=10's were used on the Brighton (D) about ten years after that picture was taken during the great R-46 Rockwell truck fiasco.
Bill "Newkirk"
That'll teach them to scrap the Arnines. :)
Yep, they sure were. I rode on an R-10 D train once around 1980. It sure looked strange, but it roared up CPW as only the Thunderbirds could. It even took the Concourse express run at a good clip.
I get the impression that there's something going on just outside the picture's right edge. Note that four people are looking out the railfan windows on the two trains, right up against the glass.
Now that you mention it, it looks like all four people are looking at the train ahead on the express track. Then again....that could just be because someone was making funny faces out the rear window of that train! :-)
["Then again....that could just be because someone was making funny faces out the rear window of that train!"]
Or a nude or topless female at the R1-9 rear railfan window.
Ya didn't do cab blessing in the tail car at rush hour. For best results, you needed that 10 minute headway. :)
Ya didn't do cab blessing in the tail car at rush hour.
Then why is it called the "tail car"???
Ya didn't do cab blessing in the tail car at rush hour.
Then why is it called the "tail car"???
Well ... self-explanatory for many, but it's the cab facing out the back so you can see where you were if you're not relaying and often also used for a little "tail" ... heh. Ah for the good old days with TWO cabs in every car. You din't have to be so fussy. :)
I just spoke with the man who may have taken that photo. I spoke with Doug Grotjahn and described the photo as close as possible. He doesn't have a computer, so I couldn't e-mail him the image for verification.
Doug said that if it is the picture he thinks I'm describing, it was photographed June 3, 1970. I dispute that date because the cars are very dirty (possibly winter when car exteriors are cleaned less). And any people seen are dressed for warm weather. I could be wrong.
He also said there may have been a back up on service that morning, maybe the DeKalb bottleneck that SelkirkTMO described. On June 3, 1970, I was in Erasmus Hall High School probably daydreaming of subway trains !.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeha, back then DeKalb was notorious. If a train dumped, everything except the B train (which could blow past DeKalb assuming it could get around tie-ups on 4th Avenue) would get backed up and the railroad would just DIE. If that photo is of Parkside though, that's where backed up traffic would usually stretch back to. If it was FURTHER down the Brighton than Parkside, then it would definitely have been a bad day on the railroad. But slow going through THERE wouldn't be a news event. Happened often enough. Once the conga line through DeKalb was done with it'd usually be smooth sailing up to 47/50 where the conga line into Columbus Circle would be waiting for ya. Once clear of THAT though, center the reverser, open the soda, open the sammich and eat drink and be merry ...
But railroad laying down by parkside was something you'd see often northbound in the rush. Just too many trains all trying to get to the same place.
If I'm not mistaken, there is an insulated joint just north of Parkside Ave. on A4 track without a wayside signal head. If this is the case that would support the fact that the R-32 closing in on the R-9 would insure that he would "lock-out" the tower and thus get the signal into Prospect Park ahead of the QB. When I was a greenhorn Motorman Instructor I made the mistake of okaying a work train to advance to the homeball locking out the tower. I caught a little hell for it but then it was Saturday; no real harm done. Or maybe it was A3 track. Not sure, too many years gone by. I do remember, after pulling the work train down past the IJ, the Trainmaster telling me I did a good job but I did it all f--king wrong. It's kind of funny today but back then I was mortified.
Thanks for letting me share.
Heh. Your memories are correct. Another joint you wanted to pass was just north of 7th Avenue going up the hill into 59 St (Columbus Circle, not Brooklyn) on a CURVE. I forget the ball number, but it's the timer past the one at the end of the platform ON the curve. If you could get up to that one and key past it, it'd make old Lou NUTS at 59 tower and he'd clear you to one side or the other of 59th just to get you OUT of there. And he'd come out of the tower, cigar and all and wave his fist at ya for doing it. But yeah, once folks indicated that picture was taken at Parkside, I knew the drill. I did that too. :)
Is that the one at the north (west) end of the n/b B/D track? I remember a sign by that signal which said something like "If red, STOP and call 59th St. tower". On one particular Saturday, this signal WAS red and the motorman on our train called the tower. After a few minutes, the signal turned either yellow or green, and we proceeded slowly around the curve and up the ramp. Ahead was a traffic jam: a D in the station and an A right next to us in the tunnel. The A was sent ahead of us once the D train in the station left. Finally we were switched to the express track and crept into 59th St. As our train stopped, I glanced ahead through the railfan window and saw a yellow-yellow lineup and the switch set for diverging. Sure enough, after getting off the train, it switched to the local track. Don't know if it made local stops or not.
Had to manually change the "subject" because Netscape SEVEN (ANOTHER piece of crap out of AOL was about to do the F-16 thing once again) ...
No, THAT signal was at the end of the platform and the sign was there in MY day too. It was called "Yo MORON, you DIDN'T PUNCH, WHO ARE YOU?" The ball in question was the one PAST that one *on* the curve. A red THERE meant you forgot to punch at 47/50 and your posterior was about to be whipped. :)
Lou was a good guy, but he was VERy much like the cigar-chomping character in "Pelham" ... if he came out of the room, your arse was BUSTED. At least verbally. He rarely wrote anybody up, but he'd give you more religion than any piddly G-2. Cheese off Lou, and he'd let you ROT on the feed and let five A's pass you and let you explain at 205 why you were late.
If you keyed by the automatic around the curve though, you'd be doing what you were SUPPOSED to and Lou's response was to just fold you over to the local track at 59 then let you cross over on the exit. Lou didn't like his board getting screwed up and he was obsessed with keeping the 6th Avenue converge as clear as possible because Jay would ride him about that. Bottom line, if you followed your leader and tightened up the railroad, Lou would give you SOMETHING to land in but he still made ya suffer. :)
I stand corrected. AFAIK that sign and phone are still there.
Were you referring to Frank Corrall in Pelham? I don't remember seeing him smoking anything. About the only person carrying a cigar was DCI Daniels.
I'm sure they use radios now. :)
As to the character, I'm referring to the guy who walked down the tracks to find out what train was screwing up his railroad. Whether he had a cigar or not, Lou usually did.
Ohhhhh, you mean Caz Dolowicz, the Grand Central Tower supervisor.
"Caz? Fat Caz? Ohhhh...." [rubbing eyes]
Hey Kevin,
Was that cigar chomping character at Pelham the shop foreman in the barn? If so, he was a pretty nice guy. I remember when I was drilling World's Fair Low-V work motors back in the mid 70's, I was bringing in a string of Low-V cars into the barn for inspection. It was a Sunday and all was relatively quiet. I gave the cars a goose, so not to have to trolley the cars, at the barn door and sailed into the bay. There was one Low-V motor at the block. I took a nip on the brake valve and felt the brakes start to grab. As I got closer to the car at the block I attempted to take another reduction but to no avail. I dumped the train and slid into the standing car making a perfect hitch. The foreman came out chomping on his cigar yelling "what the hell is going on". He bugged the cars and after building up enough air he cut the car from the ground as I backed off. He made a quick inspection of the couplers and found them to be in good condition. He also told me not to make so much noise on a Sunday because, like God, it was his day of rest also.
Re: Can't figure this picture out
Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Fri Sep 13 11:35:17 2002, in response to Re: Can't figure this picture out, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 12 09:01:32 2002.
Hey Kevin,
Was that cigar chomping character at Pelham the shop foreman in the barn? If so, he was a pretty nice guy. I remember when I was drilling World's Fair Low-V work motors back in the mid 70's, I was bringing in a string of Low-V cars into the barn for inspection. It was a Sunday and all was relatively quiet. I gave the cars a goose, so not to have to trolley the cars, at the barn door and sailed into the bay. There was one Low-V motor at the block. I took a nip on the brake valve and felt the brakes start to grab. As I got closer to the car at the block I attempted to take another reduction but to no avail. I dumped the train and slid into the standing car making a perfect hitch. The foreman came out chomping on his cigar yelling "what the hell is going on". He bugged the cars and after building up enough air he cut the car from the ground as I backed off. He made a quick inspection of the couplers and found them to be in good condition. He also told me not to make so much noise on a Sunday because, like God, it was his day of rest also.
Heh. WISH I was so lucky. Still had some momentum going when the exact same thing happened to ME. :)
No, Lou was "King of the 59 St tower" on the A, AA, CC, and D at the time although he had the same love for Cubans (ELIAN!!!!) as your buddy did. Wasn't unusual, hell, on long runs, as long as we had the cab window down, nobody gave a crap if we lit up in the cab. Hell, what was there LEFT to burn? Heh.
The reference to "Pelham" was the movie "Pelham 1-2-3" which is still about as close to reality as Hollyweird EVER got to "real life in da cab" and that was way, way off too. STILL closer than anything else to people who actually HEARD of a "cutting key" ... but yeah, I've had my chops busted over the "unintended add" in my own situation, but since there was bent anticlimber and my lead truck and my "leader's" tail truck left the rails and blew da BIGGIE breaker with sparks and all, I got shown the street. Wish I was working for your buddy at the time, but then again if it hadn't been for being shown the street, I probably wouldn't have had an interesting life. God has a sense of humor. :)
Doug said that if it is the picture he thinks I'm describing, it was photographed June 3, 1970. I dispute that date because the cars are very dirty (possibly winter when car exteriors are cleaned less). And any people seen are dressed for warm weather. I could be wrong.
It could have been a rainy morning. Note that the platform and the QB's storm door look wet. In addition, the two tie-wearing men at the railfan windows seem to have raincoats, which wouldn't be unusual for a rainy Spring day. Only the woman in the QB may be dressed too warmly for that time of year, but I really can't tell for sure.
I can sort of piece it together here. The QB R32's doors are indeed open and our mystery train is on the express track. It may possibly be an R10 but not very likely. I focused real hard on this one. This is most likely a routine rush hour delay and not a train rescue. Remember R32's and R1-9's were not electrically and mechanicaly compatible to operate together.
At the time of this picture, the motor men would key past red signals up to the leading train (during rush hours). This was supposed to be done at slow speeds to avoid collisions. After a rash of collisions this practice was discontinued.
Two possible explanations:Just because trains aren't normally allowed that close doesn't mean a motorman can't break the rule and do it anyway.Maybe the picture is an optical illusion and the train with the door trigger is on the other express track. Lets face it, the picture isn't 3-D.
>>> Maybe the picture is an optical illusion and the train with the door trigger is on the other express track <<<
I think we can rule that out. If you look closely you will see that the D's pantograph is behind the R9 pantograph. Therefore the R9 cannot be on a track farther away than the D. I suggested earlier (and was scoffed at) that the R9 could be on the local track, and still feel that is possible even if it is not likely.
I cannot help but get the impression that the D train is moving because of three things. The tilt of the D train would be consistent with the rocking while moving at normal speed, the corrugation on the front of D is a bit blurred (compared to the QB) which indicates motion, and the way the people at the rail fan window on the QB are looking to left is consistent with looking at a train which is overtaking them. Since there is no look of panic on the face of the man in the rail fan window on the D, this motion would be reasonable only if the R9 were not on the express track.
Tom
Since there is no look of panic on the face of the man in the rail fan window on the D, this motion would be reasonable only if the R9 were not on the express track
Why would there panic?. If on the same track and moving in at 1 mile per hour, I wouldn't be !!
It looks like the "D" train in this picture is actually a number of feet behind the train thta is in front of it.
#3 West End Jeff
Trade Center Memorial Unveiled
By DEVLIN BARRETT
.c The Associated Press
NEW YORK (AP) - The names of the 23 police officers who lost their lives at the World Trade Center were unveiled on a memorial wall during a ceremony Monday.
To the sound of bagpipes playing ``Amazing Grace,'' the names were unveiled at Battery Park City on the huge granite wall as Gov. George Pataki, Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly and families and friends of the deceased officers looked on.
Two NYPD officers who died elsewhere in the line of duty also were added to the wall.
The officers killed on Sept. 11 ``will never be simply a list of names. They will be remembered as officers who performed heroically on the darkest day that our city has ever seen,'' said Bloomberg. The wall ``will help keep their memory alive.''
Pataki said that the officers' families were ``still missing them so much, getting used to the reality without them.''
The ceremony opened with the ``Star Spangled Banner,'' sung by a uniformed police officer.
The New York City Police Memorial Wall honors every officer who has died in the line of duty in the department's history.
In 2001, the only officers killed in the line of duty were the 23 who lost their lives at the World Trade Center. That was more lives lost than in any other year in the NYPD's history.
The police department retired the officers' badge numbers, which were emblazoned beside their names. Families were called up to the podium one by one during the ceremony to receive replicas of the badges.
The World Trade Center victims' names were separated from the other 593 fallen officers listed at the memorial.
On the Net:
Police memorial: http://www.nypd-lba.org/memorial.htm
09/09/02 12:10 EDT
Now take a look at the map at their web site. It still shows the WTC as a station stop with PATH, A,C,E,N,R,1,2,3, and 9 subways serving the location.
On the way to Bay Parkway, I first passed the slant on the W I heard about yesterday. But even greater than this surprise was passing an R-32 at 18th Av. and it too was a W! I was hoping one would show up here before they were all gone from CI. Now all that's left is to see a 40m. I wonder if they're considering just doing a full fleet swap.
I wouldn't think of that as a pattern just yet. Perhaps that R32 consist was laid up Friday night from N service. Perhaps it was not needed over the weekend and was in a W put in position for the Monday AM rush.
Saw R32's on the W last friday afternoon heading north at 34th street
Was shocking
There was at least one slant R-40 on the W today (9/9/02).
David
correction,make that 2 since i saw 2 of them today at Pacific St while waiting for the M train which ran every 24mins. x.x
we need pictures!!!!!!!!!!
I have one but its a bit blurry
I think based on what people are posting here who have official info and what people have seen, they are pooling the N and W fleets. Sort of the same way the Jamacia R32s go onto either the E, F, or R, the N and W will stay close to the written assignments but anything will be possible.
1- Last night I saw the sign people remove the overlay at 191 on the 1 to reveal the former wording and they added a vinyl 9 over the black .
As suspected, they removed several "screws" and took down the overlay.
2- Seen in cars are many signs advising "you muist be in the first five cars for SOuth Ferry" (no exact wording) posters in a multi-language verison on one poster.
BTW- I toured the sign shop sometime ago when the musuem ahd a tour. They use silk screen for major projects and vinyl stick on letters for smaller projects. They take flat metal sheets and place the vinyl on the metal and then peel away the vinyl, leaving the letters behind(the letters are cut by computer, sort of a CAD-CAM system). The sign is then laminated and a lip is formed on the top, bottom and the left and right sides. If a sign is two sided, a blank sign is used for the back or a second message. Before leaving the shop, they add the support brackets and assemble the completed sign.
To correct small problems like when the E ended at Canal, vinyl "bumper stickers" are used or a round vinyl "bumper sticker" bullet such as the W replacing the B in Brooklyn.
Also the signs in Brooklyn have No.3 again. Utica has most of the No.1 signs removed.
Theoretically, the TA could begin a semi-normal service this week:
If they don't want to let passengers into the new stations until Sunday, they can drop them off at Chambers Street, then run the 1 train empty around the South Ferry Loop and bring it up again. The 2 and 3 would run their normal, pre-9/11 routes. Then on Sunday the 15th, they start letting passengers ride intothe South Ferry line.
Of course, workers might still be putting the finishing touches on the tracks and tunnels, and not wanting trains to come rolling through every few minutes.
I took a trip around the SF inner loop on a 5 train this past weekend, a lot of work equipment and such still remains on the SF platform.
Here are a couple of them.
Let's see.. We have the Verizon All Veriations package ad on TV, whatever that is! I see a car marked 1991, oddly enough. What station are those people getting on at and is the car R62 or R62A.
Another ad involves a Coca Cola ad with a mother and child. I see this ad on the sides of MTA buses. Question; is that the High Line Viaduct I see in the background?
Finally, I have only seen once this Nike ad. On TV, it involves showing those numbers like XX,XXX FT. at the outfield of a baseball field, but there are spread on various things around New York. One involves the view of most like likely R44/46 cars on some viaduct. Is that Smith/9th Avenues or what?
Help with these questions is mostly appreciated.
There's an ad for Connie Chung's new show in CNN, where she's in a subway station as a train pulls up, but I haven't seen it in awhile and I can't rightly make out what city it is.
Mark
I haven't seen any of those commercials, but I know that 1991 (paired with 1911) runs on the TS shuttle.
I have a photo of #1991 on the 1 line on July 3, 2002.
--Brian
I have a pic of it on the TS Shuttle on the night of Aug. 2nd:
I guess this car gets around quite a bit.
Umm...that's 1911 not 1991.
Peace,
ANDEE
Scroll to the right -- both 1911 and 1991 are there.
Oh, OK. I'm so used to my browser resizing that I didn't even notice, Sorry.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why does it take so long to open the doors of LIRR trains? Very often, I arrive for my 6:59 out of Flatbush Avenue at about 6:45 p.m. The train doors don't usually open until 6:55. Why aren't the doors opened sooner?
Because they don't want to assume responsibility for you on the train that early for some reason???
???
Or perhaps they're still PREPPING it?
Why does it take so long to open the doors of LIRR trains? Very often, I arrive for my 6:59 out of Flatbush Avenue at about 6:45 p.m. The train doors don't usually open until 6:55. Why aren't the doors opened sooner?
The crew may not even be on board that soon.
Mark
It does seem like the LIRR and MNRR have totally different cultures and/or work rules in this respect. You can just about always sit down in a MNRR train at GCT 15 to 20 minutes early.
Remember there are big differences between Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal.
On Metro-North, once a train comes in, it is very unlikely that it will have to be moved before its scheduled departure. (Note that there are 40+ tracks available.)
At Penn Station, access to the tracks is down stairs / escalators. In Grand Central, on the upper level it is a straight walk to the track.
Finally, in general there is a longer time between arrival and scheduled departure at Grand Central.
I am also sure that the different cultures (Pennsy-LIRR v. NYC-NH) do have something to do with this as well. Amazing that after almost 40 years there are still such differences!
NYP is a *station*
GCT is a *terminal*
At GCT trains wait in the station until they are needed again.
At NYP trains are pulled out by yard crew and stored elsewhere.
At GCT the train crew arrives to make the train ready for departure, cleaning crews may have been working, there are inspections and tests to be done.
At NYP the train is cleaned and made ready by the yard crew in the storage tracks. The yard crew spots the train at the designated platform and keys itself off. The road crew arrives about the same time as the passengers, or perhaps just a few minutes before departure. The conductor must key himself aboard, and then after parking his belongings and things in his office, will open the doors to the geese. All that is left to do is the brake test, done by the engineer in the front and a car-knocker at the rear. You have 240 seconds to board your train. ALL ABOARD! (toot toot) and off we go!
Elias
"At GCT trains wait in the station until they are needed again. "
There is a storage yard under Madison Avenue.
It's not that big !!
They still have to bring in trains from outlying areas.
And some the storage area will be used by the (*&(*& LIRR east side access probably increasing MN fares.
And some the storage area will be used by the (*&(*& LIRR east side access probably increasing MN fares.
Nah... NBD
MN will have access to storage at Sunnyside, more than make up for other problems.
Elias
Basically, for the pm rush, the first wave of trains waits on the platform and starts to leave after 4. As new trains come in, they are added to the platforms, and some trains are brought out of the storage tracks.
However, you have far more tracks at GCT than at Penn.
True. Metro-North will be getting a new yard in the next few years, as part of the East Side Access project.
Was just watching the first episode of the series, titled "Superman on Earth" and saw two neat IRT shots. Both occur as part of the montage that's seen in back of Clark Kent as he's shown walking for the first time in Metropolis. This is after he says goodbye to Ma Kent and boards a bus for the big city.
One shot shows a curve on a double decker structure, the next scene shows an IRT el train heading for the camera.
On a non-train note, notice Jor-el's (Superman's father on Krypton)costume. I read somewhere that it's the costume used by Buster Crabbe on one of the old Flash Gordon serials.
Back to trains, concerning Jor-el, and his son Kal-el, interesting family name isn't it? Does it remind you of anything in particular? I believe the original comics had Jor-El's name spelled "Jor-L." This might have made sense if Seigel and Schuster were from Chicago, but they weren't.
"On a non-train note, notice Jor-el's (Superman's father on Krypton)costume. I read somewhere that it's the costume used by Buster Crabbe on one of the old Flash Gordon serials."
That's entirely possible. It wouldn't be the first time costumes have been recycled (with minor variations, perhaps).
I assume, though, that the same studio produced both (otherwise copyrights and/or trademarks might be infringed???).
<< Back to trains, concerning Jor-el, and his son Kal-el, interesting family name isn't it? Does it remind you of anything in particular? I believe the original comics had Jor-El's name spelled "Jor-L." This might have made sense if Seigel and Schuster were from Chicago, but they weren't. >>
I've seen reprints of the original comics and their names were El. Of course, the reprints might have changed the names.
I don't think the reprints changed the names. We're going to have to go way off topic here, but I'd like to clarify what I said. Well before the first Superman strip appeared, Siegel & Schuster were doing other series for the comics. One of these was about Law-men from other planets. One of these Lawmen was named Jor-L. They then re-used the name with a slight change in spelling to Jor-El for Superman's father on Krypton. I've never seen for myself those pre-Superman adventures of Jor-L so I'm not sure how consistant or not they may have been with the Superman mythos.
>>concerning Jor-el, and his son Kal-el, interesting family name isn't it? Does it remind you of anything in particular?<
Broadway el, Myrtle el, Third Ave el !
Bill "Newkirk"
And Superboy's brother Mon-el from the Legion of SuperHeroes was probably named after an elevated monorail.
*OPINION*
Passing South Ferry Station this morning (0430), the turnstiles and gates have been removed from the old station entrance under the ramp to the ferry terminal. The new entrance has developed a green globe outside facing the ferry terminal. I'm guessing that when service resumes on Sunday, the new entrance will be placed into service.
pics?
:)
I have heard that the staircase is now near the T/O's position, which should make it fun for C/R's trying to close down.
Almost as much fun as the evening rush, when everyone will try to get in the first car for easy access to the staircase.
I was able to attend the Hamburg PA train meet yesterday, and noticed that only one vendor had the MTH R-17 & R-21 add-on cars. He was asking $110.00 per two car set of either model.
Since these sets have been available for about two weeks I would have thought that I might have seen more available for sale!
The vendor was actually over-charging by about $25/$30. You can get 'em cheaper at a model rr dealer.
Given what I've seen with prices on those, folks whining that they can't find any and what MTH DOES release doing a battery run straight to eBay, one HAS to wonder what MTH is thinking. CLEARLY they're not making enough of them and in shortsheeting the hobbyists, not making anywhere near as much money as they could be.
Though I just ain't got room for O gauge, I have thought about buying a few of them just to have something that LOOKS like subway cars. There's nothing other than insanely priced brass for N guage. What are these folks smoking and where can I get some? :)
BMTman is right--you should be able to find the MTH add-ons a lot cheaper. Island Trains in Staten Island has them for $77.00 for each pair in their ad in Classic Toy Trains, but I haven't seen them listed in any of the other mail order dealers.
By pre-order (which I do when new catalogs come out), $67.95 for each pair was what I paid my local dealer here in northern NY.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, New York
Ed, You are LUCKY!!!
That is the best pre-order price that I have heard of.
I have been offerred 20% on occasion, but if I remember the MSRP correctly, you are getting about 32.5%, which is fantastic.
SubTalkers may soon be contacting you to order their sets for them.
Speaking of MTH Subway cars, does anyone know when the World's Fair set is going to be released and what the car numbers will be? My guess is the 9000 series cars from the "7" train, in their original turquoise paint scheme.
I gave up modeling the subway because it was way too expensive. I started my MTSTA commuter rail system composed of combined NY, NJ, and CT railroads through mergers. My current fleet is of Comet II cabs and coaches for Metro-North, NJ Transit, Conn DOT, and LIRR(painted the scheme though LIRR has no Comet coaches) and Metro-North West of Hudson Cabs and coaches. My living room looks like Hoboken Terminal and Long Island City in one. All my friends are jealous of my revenue fleet. My locomotive consists are FL9, in Metro-North and New Haven Mcguiness Scheme(both painted by me), F40PH for NJT, Metro-North and CDOT McGuiness Scheme, ALP 44, GP40 NJT, and GENESIS P32DM painted for Metro-North(store purchased)NJT, and LIRR(painted myself).
Former MTA two-tone blue "M" is my railroad logo with homemade decals on all my coaches and engines.
Am waiting by the phone here for my local dealer to call & say "Come on down" to pick up what you've ordered.
Maybe I ought to stop by his shop.
My dealer's allotment is gone (or spoken for). $85 for pre-ordered & $100 for walk-ins. I would stop by and ask. BTW: Now that they are all gone my dealer will be able to lower the price to $60 or $70 like some of his competitors.
Would you believe I just got a call from my dealer.
So guess where I'm going to night ?????
As Mel Allen used to say, how 'bout that?
Are you getting both add-ons? I was at Nassau Hobbies in Freeport yesterday. They say that they have just one of each left. My dealer only has reserved sets remaining. So what's next?
1) The R-36 World's Fair set, for sure, will have an add-on pair. Maybe we'll be treated to a pair of R-33 singles instead of another pair of R-36s.
2) The add-on crane and crane tender for the NYCT Work Train.
3) The R-12 Set a year from now - followed by the 2-car add-on set the following year.
4)The Centennial Subway set and the 2 add-on cars.
BTW: Trainland is selling the R-17 ste for $400.00 and the R-32 set for $699.95
The R-17 & R-21 add-ons are going to be a lot more popular than the R-42 D & E train add-ons were.
I talked with three dealers, and dealer scuttlebutt is that the R-21 is going to be scarce, strictly because of the color. If the R-17 had been produced in red instead of blue and silver it would probably be sold out now.
This limited run production by train manufacturers today is for the birds. Train manufacturers did not do this fifty years ago. Fifty years ago they were really manufacturers, and not just importers.
And three years ago, two guys from MTH spent four hours taping sounds from PCC 7407 and Witt 6119 at BSM for the MTH Baltimore streetcars due out in 2001.
At the speed MTH gets stuff out, I suspect we might see either one of these sometime around 2020. Maybe.
If they ever put out a set of R-1/9s, they'll need the appropriate sounds for them.
Well we put 6688 in the barn so they could record all her noises, so we could do the same for 1689 !
Don't TEMPT me, bro ... Dang! Wish I had a decent portable recorder suddenly. One of my weird foibles is I prefer the MIND as a camera, thus I have no videocorders, no still or digital cameras and no recording objects. Conspire amongst yourselves, I'll take a dub. Heh.
But a fuzzy mind makes former lives far more entertaining than documentation of reality. :)
We'll have to make sure the fans work (no matter what the temp. is outside), as they are part of the sounds & smells of the R1/9 breed.
Power company will need to put on a few more hamsters. I'm planning on floor heat too just to melt their fannies into the canework. :)
[BTW: Trainland is selling the R-17 ste for $400.00 and the R-32 set for $699.95]
Steve, that's why I avoid dealing with Trainland/World. What a bunch of scam artisits. Their prices for subway sets changes from day-to-day like the stockmarket. I browse Trainland but go elsewhere to make my purchases.
Yesterday, when I found out about the R-12s etc., I decided that since I can't lay up on my main line and since I don't like my trains in boxes, I'd need to add 2-4 additional storage tracks.
The plan called for several Gargraves 042 switches and track. Nassau Hobbies did not have what I needed so I went to Trainland and paid list price for the track. They are my dealer of last resort.
Can someone tell me their web address.
Thanks !!
Try www.mth-railking.com
Thanks !!
I have decided, after talking with a friend, that they are essentially the same.
Yes. Both the yuppies of the city and the working class of the city can share the same tunnel vision as suburbanites. It's kind of weird. Let me explain: it boils down to a question of culture, and never experiencing what you have not experienced. The liberals on this board (i.e. myself, and perhaps others) often criticize the suburbanite for driving their SUV's and for not experiencing city life to even decide whether they like it or not (e.g. avoiding certain shopping districts by driving because they heard it was "skanky".) Well I turn that question upside down. How many yuppies have experienced life in suburban strip malls? How many inner city working class have even travelled outside the city, other than by Greyhound, to a nearby city?
The working class have an excuse, or reason: their limited financial purchase power means it is difficult for them to experience life outside their sphere (i.e. trapped in poverty), but the suburbanites and the yuppies have no excuse. They can clearly at least try a different lifestyle, but most are too narrow minded to do it.
Of course, of the three groups of people mentioned there, many of them will have made the decision to try something else, either because they want to, or had been forced by circumstances. So these people are exempt from this discussion.
What I find extremely amusing is that suburbanites who go on foreign trips with a tour group to touristy foreign areas claim that they are culturally well rounded and have experienced more than most people. The same suburbanite also claim that they sympathize with the inner city working class because their grandfather worked in [fill in a bad job description]. To that I chuckle.
AEM7
I took you that long to figure out? I demand the stats! ;-)
Well, it's not an easy thing to figure out, that suburbanite culture can have exactly the same characteristics as city yuppie culture. It's because the suburban/city axis and the open-minded/tunnel-vision axis are in fact mutually perpendicular instead of closely aligned like some people like to suggest.
AEM7
Wow, you inspire me to think like a philosopher. To go out and rethink my life...Thanks... j/k
Have you thought of this long?
Yes, this thread is definately on topic...NOT! From the top of the home page:
<< This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. >>
Suburban versus City culture is a transit-related topic.
AEM7
My mistake! I guess I should have layed off the stuff. I made Dave reiterate the claim.
<< This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. >>
Pretty clear, isn't it? A discussion of suburban vs. city might be interesting (I think it is, since I minored in Urban Studies in college) but (so far) it has nothing to do with rail transit systems worldwide.
rail transit systems worldwide
Rail transit systems carry people from the suburbs to the city. Part of demand modelling for transit systems is the understanding of the different cultures that exist in the suburbs and in the city therefore different coefficients of the many service characteristics. For instance, if there were a variable for "service quality", the coefficient might be higher for the suburbs than they are for the city. To design a study that will refute or support that claim, an understanding of the differences in culture is vital.
Therefore rail transit systems (specifically demand modelling for new systems) is relevant to the distinction between suburban and city cultures.
Q.E.D.
All true, except that you two never discussed rail transit systems!
And if they didn't, what business is it of yours?
It's okay, RonInBayside, he just doesn't like losing arguments. heh. Demand modelling is a very important part of any studies of rail transit systems. Anyway, the suburbanite issue has been discussed on this board before.
Hmmm...this is why neighborhoods with subways sometimes have express buses. Sometimes the subway is REALLY slow, sometimes certain people don't want to be near certain other people.
<< And if they didn't, what business is it of yours? >>
Because I come hear to read about rail and transit, not topics about city planning. An interesting topic to be sure, but there are more appropriate forums.
Just to review:
"Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only."
A quick browse with any search engine will bring up forums devoted to city planning.
<< This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. >>
Pretty clear, isn't it? A discussion of suburban vs. city might be interesting (I think it is, since I minored in Urban Studies in college) but (so far) it has nothing to do with rail transit systems worldwide.
Have you thought of this long?
An ex-girlfriend of mine questioned me the other day as to why I hate the suburbanites so much. In the ensuing discussion, it was clear that I didn't, I just dislike some suburbanites. After all, I grew up in the suburbs myself. I also had issues with yuppie culture. I also had issues with the inner city poor culture. So in fact I dislike everyone. Surely that can't be right. Then I decided I only disliked a subset of these people. Really what I dislike is tunnel-vision per se... an assumption that the status-quo is the only way to do things. I am perfectly happy with a suburbanite who have tried transit-riding city life and decided that it wasn't for them.
I also decided that transit-riding city life isn't for me, as much as I love the railroads and transit. I am therefore a suburbanite -- a group of people that I professed to dislike.
AEM7
I do dislike yuppie suburbanites, mainly do to their opposition to anything taht won't fit the "sameness" of their community.
Especially because they love their big luxury SUV's and the thought of transit makes them panic.
OTOH, blue collar suburban communites are often filled with honest, hard working people who aren't into "luxury" image like the North shore snobs.
Yeah but at least the the city yuppie females dress nice. Here in the burbs it's all khaki.
Also yuppie suburban females are less open minded when it comes to dating.
Even if your wealthy, living in the city gives you a better opportunity to experience different cultures and thus can make you more intelligent. In the suburbs, the name of the game is to act and dress like everyone else. Marry a tall guy, drive the largest SUV (that's a popular competition out here), and vehimently oppose any change from the norm.
Take Great Neck for example, they got the town board to reject a business license renewal for a Chinese Buffet, because the "chinese food smell" was bothering them. Now a very upscale pseudo Pan asian resteruant opened up. I think it's called "WILD GINGER".
See even chinese resteruants have to dress up just for being in burbs as normal.
I don't know that is true. I am Chinese and I'd hate the "Chinese Food Smell" in my neighbourhood.
I don't think living in the city automatically gives you the chance to experience the cultures. Only if you take the time to experience them. I think many in the city are just as bad if not worse than those in the suburbs. I've dated many suburban girls, and I'm very happy with one at the moment, and I have never ever yet been able to date a city yuppie.
Suburbanites can open up, if sufficiently shocked. It's snail pace, but it does happen. Slowly. Like riding transit, you have to be patient.
AEM7
Take Great Neck for example, they got the town board to reject a business license renewal for a Chinese Buffet, because the "chinese food smell" was bothering them. Now a very upscale pseudo Pan asian resteruant opened up. I think it's called "WILD GINGER".
Well if you like Chinese buffets, there's always Grand Buffet in Centerreach. When we went there a couple of years ago, I was at one of the sinks in the restroom when I heard a toilet flush. A stall door opened, a man wearing a kitchen worker's uniform came out and left the restroom without washing his hands.
We haven't been back.
I'm actually not a fan of chinese buffets, because the food is sitting under heat lamps and is not fresh.
Wow your experience sounds something straight out of a Seinfeld episode with "Poppi".
I don't understand what the big deal is. They cook the food to more than 232F which kills all germs, including all harmful germs found in shit, so even if the guy has shit on his hands and gets it into the food, it's not going to cause a major issue. And anyway maybe he will wash his hands after going back to the kitchen.
You'll be shocked at how things are prepared in deli places like Au Bon Pain.
AEM7
"I don't understand what the big deal is. They cook the food to more than 232F ..."
... and if he handles the food after it comes out of the pot?
Generally yes, if my food is cooked thoroughly I'm not worried at all. In regular chinese rood resteruants, and even take outs, my food is always very hot. But buffets on the other hand have lots of luke warm food just lying around. From the few I've been to, I have never been impressed with the food. I also know somebody who got food poisoning in a buffet.
While the scenario with the worker coming out of the restroom mentioned above is disgusting, I hate buffets for another reason also. Anytime I've been to a Chineese buffet, you have other patron's kids running wild, grabbing stuff and throwing it back, people sneezing and then grabbing the spoons and food, and most of the time the buffets just don't seem clean.
Sure, you probably wouldn't want to see the kitchen in most restaurants and delis, but at least it's hidden there and you don't have to think about it like you do at a Chineese buffet.
I agree with what you said. In addition, buffets encourage people to stuff themselves.
By the way: has anyone else noted how many SubTalk threads eventually turn into FoodTalk?
Certainly. Food and rail have always gone together. One of my favorite rail/food memories was the soft pretzel stand at 69th Street Terminal.
Walking from the El to the Red Arrow streetcars or the P&W, grab a couple of pretzels, put a little mustard on them, and go out to the platform, munching away to sounds of motors, air compressors, bells, and the commuters heading home.
When SEPTA rebuilt the terminal, all the little stands went away.
Bad SEPTA!!!!!
Without food and subways, life itself would not be worth living...
:0)
Without food, I wouldn't be alive. Likewise, I need the subway to get to work so I can earn money to buy food. See, it all ties in together.
Mark
Actually, it makes a big deal. His hands touch your plate, your utensils, the salad, and the food after it's been cooked.
If someone can't be bothered to wash hands while handling food, the restaurant should not be bothered to pay him.
If an Au Bon Pain is a problem, a visit by the Health dept. is in order. I have arranged just such a visit on at least one occasion when I was in Boston.
There is a column in the Boston Metro that allegedly catalogues these substandard restaurants. I still think it's just heresy, reading about a certain restaurant in that column wouldn't be enough to make me avoid it. I don't think any restaurants follow the "rules" all that closely when the big brother's backs are turned. Hell, I don't follow all those rules with my fridge at the right temperature, etc. I do try to wash my hand before I prepare fude for myself though.
AEM7
Well, you are responsible for yourself at home.
My friends and I (all physicians, coincidentally) went to eat at a variation of a Mongolian Bar B-Que where you cooked it yourself at your table. Raw beef, pork and chicken were brought out to us, along with raw vegetables. All the food was tossed together on the same plates (a flagrant violation), and no clean plates were supplied to eat the cooked meat (another violation). Moreover, there was so little room at the table that some dishes had to be balanced on one's knee.
This resulted in a lengthy discussion between us and the restaurant, and a certified letter to the local health officer, who then visited the restaurant to review their food handling procedures and offer remedial education.
The health consequences can be serious: diarrhea and dehydration, and overwhelming infections in people with weak immune systems. In addition, if the E coli strain you happen to be inflicted with is H7 O157, you can end up in the intensive care unit with kidney failure, and progress to multi-organ system failure. I took care of such a patient, who subsequently died.
E Coli can be transferred by not washing hands after going to the bathroom, from juices of raw meat transferred to salads or from eating meat raw or undercooked (hamburger should NEVER be eaten less than well-done), from the salads themselves.
The health consequences can be serious: diarrhea and dehydration, and overwhelming infections in people with weak immune systems. In addition, if the E coli strain you happen to be inflicted with is H7 O157...
Alright, let me put my non-academic hat on and talk about this from a real world perspective:
Isn't it true that immuine systems, and people's body systems in general have a tendency to adapt? There was recently some research that reported people with pets at home as a child are less likely to develop allegies later on in life, even for allegins other than pet hair or any related allegins. The reasoning is unclear -- as the article implied. Now, my theory is this. If you keep yourself exposed to a background level of germs and other toxins... voila, your body develop an increased tolerance for them. The antibodies learn to recognize them at low concentrations, so if you happen to eat a particularly bad piece of fish, you're not going to get as sick as somebody who always made sure they ate clean fude.
At least that is my theory -- I don't worry too much about the occasional diahorrea here and there (students tend to get that anyway, given the sort of eating budget and habits that many of them have). I don't flush it out with likes of Pepto-Bisumo (I know people that are chronically hooked on that stuff), I just kind of let it sit. I've never really found that eating at cheap n' dodgy places (especially ones run by Greeks, often with visibly poor hygene standards, visibly greasy worktops and lack of gloves etc for handling fude) caused a problem for my digestive system. It sometimes causes problems for others who normally eat at more refined places.
Agreed, that serious fude posioning can have serious consequences, but those are rather rare, even at shady places. The level of concern you have I don't think is necessary in this country. Now if I were in the Formosa, I would be a lot more careful about where I eat, but I figure that most places here are pretty safe even if they don't appear to follow the basic food preparation guidelines, because, well, the chances are, the school cafeterias or the more refined places don't either, you just don't know about it. For goodness sake, most school cafeterias here in BOS are either staffed with people who hardly speak English (ask CI Peter for his opinionsky) or staffed with COLLEGE UNDERGRADUATES -- how much hygene code do you think these people know? Yeah, they are supposed to be trained. But T/Os are supposed to know how to drive a train also. How many of them actually do?
AEM7
(The health consequences can be serious: diarrhea and dehydration, and overwhelming infections in people with weak immune systems. In addition, if the E coli strain you happen to be inflicted with is H7 O157... )
Clearly I chose to look in on this thread at the wrong time.
"Isn't it true that immuine systems, and people's body systems in general have a tendency to adapt? There was recently some research that reported people with pets at home as a child are less likely to develop allegies later on in life, even for allegins other than pet hair or any related allegins. The reasoning is unclear -- as the article implied. Now, my theory is this. If you keep yourself exposed to a background level of germs and other toxins... voila, your body develop an increased tolerance for them. The antibodies learn to recognize them at low concentrations, so if you happen to eat a particularly bad piece of fish, you're not going to get as sick as somebody who always made sure they ate clean fude. "
Theoretically possible, I suppose. But when I administer a vaccination I know how much antigen I'm giving you. How do you know how big a dose of E Coli you got when you ate food in a given place...
As to cleanliness in restaurants, that's why health depts inspect and in some places, assign grades which are posted near the front door.
It is a matter of percentages. But the risks are preventable, and therefore, unnecessary. we run risks all the time - but why should we be subjected to preventable ones? washing your hands with soap is very inexpensive and very effective at reducing risks.
Example: In the 19th Century, Ignaz Semmelweis recognized that not washing one's hands between examining pregnant women led to purpeural fever and death. Now, did this mean a woman automatically died because her obstetrician worked with hands and instruments unwashed? No, but there were plenty of women who did not fall ill. But she took a gamble with the odds unnecessarily stacked against her. Simply washing one's hands meant that you didn't have to be in mortal fear of going to the doctor.
Eating in a restaurant in the US is, most of the time, a fun, safe experience because we reduce unnecessary risks with cost-effective solutions.
"but there were plenty of women who did not fall ill."
I meant to say, "because..."
There is a column in the Boston Metro that allegedly catalogues these substandard restaurants. I still think it's just heresy, reading about a certain restaurant in that column wouldn't be enough to make me avoid it. I don't think any restaurants follow the "rules" all that closely when the big brother's backs are turned. Hell, I don't follow all those rules with my fridge at the right temperature, etc. I do try to wash my hand before I prepare fude for myself though.
Speak for yourself. I am not into the whole coprophagia scene, and I am not going to patronize a restaurant where the workers don't wash after using the donicker.
I'd say you're engaging in a bit of stereotyping. Sure, there are upscale city residents who are wholly ignorant of suburban life, but I am almost 100% certain that neither you nor I, or anyone else on this board for that matter, has the slightest idea if they are commonplace, unusual, or somewhere in between.
I think you may be painting with too broad a brush in your characterizations of "city-dweller" or "suburbanite". Look no further than the "Home Station" thread from a few days ago and see how many people have lived in both an urban and suburban environment.
Many people have experienced both worlds and made a choice -- either due to preference or to necessity.
CG
Presumably a preserved thing. It was in Kendall Sq Cambridge, had green paint, and said something on the side that was perhaps "Green Totorise". It had like a number, which if I remember right was 303. Some MBTA bus drove past it, made good photo opportunities. The driver was presumably weirded out by it, because he made a delibrate slow down past the bus.
Any info, Todd G?
AEM7
>>> Presumably a preserved thing. It was in Kendall Sq Cambridge, had green paint, and said something on the side that was perhaps "Green Totorise" <<<
If you post this on Bus Talk (where it belongs) you will probably get a good response.
Tom
Doesn't The Big Blue Bus (anta Monica Bus Lines) still run a few re-engined Fishbowls with retro-fitted wheelchair lifts? I seem to recall their having them still in service last year.
That was Santa Monica...sorry...
Yes, and as a matter of fact, they own bus #5180 - this was the last fishbowl EVER produced in Canada back in 1986. It's already slated for museum status and still has the Santa Monica Municipal Bus Lines paint scheme.
Yes, I recall that the manufacturer's plates say GM Greyhound Canada.
They own quite a few that still have their original engine types and they were built with the wheelchair lifts.
It was parked right outside my office. See Green Tortoise Tours; Bus 303 is pictured here -- then GO TO BUSTALK. (OK, it was parked at the Kendall/MIT MBTA Red Line Station, to stay OT.)
Why does some many people get so touchy over posting this here instead of bus talk. I remember I once made a posting about MetroCards not working in the cross town bus after a quick train ride and the first thing that came to my mind after I hit the key to post the message was that I would get several curt replys that the posting belonged on BUSTALK.
I there any harm in an occasional bus themed post landing here? If someone does it on a consistant basis, I agree that would be a problem. But for me, I spend the vast majority of my time on this board rather than bustalk (about 100:1 ratio) and when something comes to mind about NYC transit that I want to share comes up, this is the place I think to go.
I guess what I'm trying to say, especially on in light of the events that took place 1 year ago today is; do we really need to get upset over very small irritants in our lives? I'm sure there are 2,801 people who would love to able to read a bus themed message here on subtalk.
From their web site....
Green Tortoise Adventure Travel began in 1974 with one sturdy but well used bus and the realization that beautiful places, good food, and sociable people with an enthusiasm for life and nature, were really the only essentials for economical and gratifying travel experiences. Since then, over 500,000 folks and lots of repeat riders from all over the world have enjoyed the beauty, excitement and inspiration of North and Central America, in the company of gentle, unusual people, aboard our well maintained, "stretch out and sleep while we drive" coaches.
There's nothing else like the Green Tortoise - PERIOD. Our buses are beautiful, with names and literally millions of miles of character. Our passengers are happy. They don't sit up all night with their heads against the window, but sleep lying down on fitted sheets over mattresses on raised platforms and bunk beds, listening to beautiful music as they doze off. In the morning they've usually arrived somewhere incredible! By day we swim, cook breakfast, explore caves, climb mountains, raft downstream, stand under waterfalls, walk through forests, cook dinner, build campfires, visit towns, meet people, or just plain take it easy.
You're welcome to join the adventure, friends and fun. The settings will be national parks and the finest and least visited beaches, deserts, forests, hot springs, mountains, and waterfalls that our years of experience and good-natured drivers can find.
Note: they were written up in a major newspaper.
Gee, you missed the Motor Coach group's event in July at Double A at Rocky Hill, CT ... there was a Y-A-R-D full of Fishbowls & GM Old Looks to view.
..."the Motor Coach group's event in July at Double A at Rocky Hill, CT ... there was a Y-A-R-D full of Fishbowls & GM Old Looks to view."...BTW the event was the first Saturday in AUGUST. >G<
To see a fishbowl today, just go to Madison Avenue in the PM or
Fifth Avenue in the AM or the Bruckner Expressway [where I see them]
New York Bus Service still has numerous 16## in service on its
express routes from the Bronx to Manhattan.
;| ) Sparky
Those NYBS GM of Canada fishbowls are actually numbered 1481-1505. The 1600-1602 are GM Classics - and the rest of the 16/1700 series are MCI Classics.
Wayne
Thanks Wayne,
Not being a bus fanatic, I know I've seen them recently, even if
I mislabeled the numbering. But sure can tell the diff by looking
at the front between a flat MCI and a GM Fish Bowl. Most times I
observe, it's in traffic conditions, so it's a quickie glance.
But if I'm correct, they are the last fish bowls in service in this
area, east of Hudson River? Still may be some in use by Red & Tan
[Coach USA] and New Jersey Transit?
;| ) Sparky
PS: I know, this should have been on BusTalk. What you want from
a Streetcar Fanatic. ;| )
These 1980s Greyhound buses -- MCI, doors that open like an auto, corrugated stainsteel steel lower portion, and painted panels below the windows, and a sort of bevelled sides both front and back (front from a window, back from a black plasticy bit)...
What are those called? I love those buses.
Thanks,
Lexcie
MC-5, MC-6, MC-7, MC-8, MC-9 and also 96A3, 102A3 models fit your description and have worked for Greyhound.
Built by Motor Coach Industries in Pembina, North Dakota. Around halfway through the MC-8 production (1973-1978), Greyhound (owner of MCI at the time) built a second plant at the Roswell AFB (where UFO's seemingly have landed...yeah, right!) and that was called TMC, or Transportation Manufacturing Corporation. Most of Greyhounds stuff then came out of the TMC plant, while MCI built stuff mostly for other private operators.
The TMC plant is where the RTS transit bus was built starting in 1986.
That's Walker AFB in Roswell NM. MCI used the "Big Hanger" in which 6 SAC bombers can be worked on indoor (except the tail sticks out).
MC-9,MC-12's...
Today we do another study in Cranial Rectal Inversion.
After several rather technical pieces, it is time to have a little fun as we study another outbreak of head up assitis. As long as there are railroads, there will be cranial rectal inversion. Although this disease is not limited to those in transportation, it abounds throughout all facets and walks of life. As long as there is human life on this planet, this medical disorder will continue to not only survive, but thrive. Isn’t human nature great?
No matter how good or how well trained one is in their profession, they can have breif bouts of that little displacement of upper and lower torso. Generally, it seems to occur far more often to those who are not the best and the brightest in their fields. This is how some people become management in various businesses and industry throughout the world. After performing one or even a multitude or hair brained events, they are promoted to a position where they can do the least amount of damage. Others remain part of the rank and file and soldier on getting ample opportunity to stretch the hair even thinner. There is no known cure and as far as I can tell, no research currently on going to prevent the spread of this medical mystery. Perhaps we should start an organization.
And as before, to be fair to those involved in all the events we will study here, names, railroads and locations will not be disclosed to protect the guilty.
One hot summer we were really getting barraged with mosquitoes. It seemed they were as big as quarters. One Conductor decided to do something about them. He unleashed one of those bug bombs inside of his caboose. Unfortunately for him, he didn’t take into consideration the fact the caboose is a very confined space in which to work. The caboose almost immediately became uninhabitable. As a result of his bright idea, both he and the Flagman had to ride on the back porch for miles until the fog from this bug bomb dissipated.
Our first study today involves a Conductor working a local. They entered an industrial lead clearing the main track, lining back the switch and restoring the derail after they pulled their train into the clear. Instead of walking up to the head end of the train or even just hopping the caboose like he should have done, the Conductor decided to take the easy way out. He informed his Engineer to back the train up to pick him up on the head end. Neither one had considered the fact they had a derail placed into the derailing position behind their train. Nor did they consider the fact there was no room to shove back as they had just cleared the main track.
The Engineer willfully obliged the request from the Conductor and began to quickly back the train up. Before the emergency application took effect bringing everything to a stop, the caboose and two cars had turned over on their sides. But at least they were still clear of the main track.
This next lesson involves a Conductor who appeared not once, but twice in the last episode of CRI. He has developed quite a history and earned a great honor of appearing more than anybody else has in this category. Perhaps I should give him some kind of award. Maybe if we ever get a Hot Times logo designed and printed on T-shirts, I can award him with one with a notation on the back that he is number one in cranial rectal inversion.
Anyway, this guy was instructed to shove a cut of cars coupled to a pair of idling locomotives into the clear in a track and cut them off. The Car Inspectors would then take over and work the cut for an outbound train. Key on the words shove them into the clear and cut them off. This means shove them into the track, stop the cut and cut them off. Sounds simple enough, right?
Well, this guy made the task even easier. He let the cut of cars and two locomotives go while they were still moving. Saved him and his Engineer a couple of steps he did. I guess he figured if he just let them roll into the track kind of easy, they would all just drift to stop quite nicely.
They stopped all right, after they plowed into a cut of covered hoppers loaded with grain. They collided with your basic impenetrable force. The loads of grain didn’t move; they didn’t give either. What did give were the locomotives. Both of them derailed with one of them sustaining significant damage. As a result, the train that was supposed to use these engines was horribly delayed.
On the subject of wrecking engines, another guy I worked with managed to render some damage to a couple of locomotives. There were several dead locomotives en route to the scrapper’s torch. Dead in tow locomotives are a lot of dead weight (no pun intended, but since it is on the table…) coming in with much more weight than a loaded freight car. Dead locomotives are never supposed to be cut off in motion; never.
"When I say never mean never!"
One morning this Conductor is switching the cut with the dead locomotives. They were not all together but separated by several cars each. These locomotives were all going to the same place but the cars in between them were not, so they had to be switched out. This Conductor decides to drift the first of three dead locomotives into a track. As the switching continued, he drifted another locomotive in on top of the first one. When that second locomotive struck the first one in the track, the couplers of both of these locomotives by-passed each other instead of coupling. This means the couplers on each engine skirted off each other allowing them to strike the end sheets or pilots of each locomotive. This created some lateral force derailing both of the engines.
This little bit of information was unknown to the Conductor as he let the third locomotive go into the track. When it hit the other two which were now derailed, it caused further problems as the rail under all of these locomotives rolled over from the impact. Now, all three dead engines were derailed and there was considerable track damage. The boys with the big yellow toys had to be called to pick up the derailed locomotives and place them back on rail. The Track Department had to be called out to repair the damaged track as well. So much for this little short cut.
At one railroad, several Car Inspectors decided to take a short cut across the yard with a brand new truck. They successfully managed to get it stuck on one of the tracks in the yard. Instead of calling the Yardmaster and advising him of their dilemma, they went to get some assistance. I guess they didn’t want to give themselves up. While these guys were soliciting assistance, a crew in the yard was switching cars. Unaware of what was going on with the stuck pick up truck, the Conductor let four loads of sand go into this very track. The sand cars creamed this truck totally destroying it.
A Car Foreman that was known for driving like a wild man joins the CRI list. His tactics were almost legendary. One evening while tearing through the yard all hell bent to get some place quickly, he struck a rut in the road and lost control of the truck. He proceeded to smash into a cut of railcars in a track along side the road. Another demolished truck. He was awarded with sixty days off without pay for his efforts.
One day a yard crew was working with the anticipation of getting an early quit. An early quit was getting to go home when your work was completed irregardless of the time. So if you got your work done in say, six and a half-hours, you got to tie up and go home being compensated a full days pay in the process. Anyway, these guys were working for the quit, but were informed by the Yardmaster late in their day they would not be going home after all, but would continue to work instead. They were not a happy bunch.
When they finally did get to tie up and go home, they went to the bar and had a few drinks instead. While they were drinking, they began to discuss the events of the day. After a few more drinks, they decided to go and get even with the Yardmaster over the day’s events. It was rather late in the evening when they headed over to his house banging on the door. When he answered, they proceeded to beat him up. After the smoke cleared and the dust settled, all of these guys wound up being dismissed from the railroad. Their dismissals lasted for several years before they were able to be reinstated.
In another episode of away from workplace violence, an Engineer was upset with getting some bad information about working on Christmas Eve. He was told he would work that evening and wound up not getting out. His wife and family had gone off to visit relatives leaving him behind to work. Incensed over the situation, he decided to start drinking. While drinking and mulling over his poor stroke of luck, he decided to seek revenge. He got into his truck and drove over to one of the official’s homes and began pounding on the door. When the officer answered, this Engineer punched the guy squarely in the eye. He told this guy another official would be next on his "hit list" and proceeded to head over to this guy’s house.
While the hit maker was en route to his next gig, he managed to run his truck off the road wrecking it and his chances for back to back, or maybe it would be face to face hits.
He was dismissed for his actions. He remained off the job until the officer on the receiving end of his fist was eventually transferred to another location. This was some two years later.
Another guy I worked with joined the list from shear stupidity. He showed up at work drinking a bottle of no alcohol beer. The Superintendent saw this and immediately questioned the guy’s sanity. They guy explained this was no alcohol beer so it was okay. The Super told him to read the label, especially the part where it says "May contain one half of one percent of alcohol by volume." The Super went on to explain to this guy that this was effectively a violation of Rule G, which prohibits the use of drugs and alcohol. Instead of being pulled out of service, he was simply sent home and warned to not let it happen again.
A good friend of mine, known for some of his outlandish actions is awarded a CRI medallion for this episode. He was switching out an industry pulling the empty car out and respotting a loaded one. The car he was respotting was at the wrong end of his engine, so they would need to either run around it, or perform a drop to get it into the proper position. Not wanting to take the extra ten or fifteen minutes to perform the run around move, they chose to drop the car. Not a problem as this procedure was done often.
A drop, also known as a flying switch or running switch, is performed as follows; you place the members of your crew in position to perform the task. Then, you test the switch you will use to assure it will line easily and also test the hand brake on the car to assure it will work properly and stop the car as designed. Once said tests are performed, you being by starting to accelerate the locomotive and car or cars you wish to drop. The Engineer will then reduce (not shut down) the throttle a bit, possibly apply some locomotive brakes to slightly retard the speed enough to allow the slack between the engine and car run in enough to operate the pin lifter to uncouple the car. After receiving the sign from the crewmember pulling the pin, the Engineer then accelerates rapidly away from the car. Once clear of the switch to be used, a crewmember at that switch will quickly line it for the following car or cars to roll into that track. When said car or cars roll completely into the clear, the hand brake is operated on the car to stop it. The engine is then brought back out of where it was ducked into the clear and into the track where the car went, coupled on and you then go about your business.
Sometimes this works with no problem, other times it does not. When it doesn’t is being saved for a "When Things Go Haywire" column of the future. This particular episode went well, only a little too well. Nobody tested the hand brake on the car and when the time came to stop it, the car would not stop, the hand brake did not work. Oh oh.
My buddy (who was the Conductor this day) was riding the car and suddenly learned of his dilemma. The car was rolling at a decent clip but not too fast, right towards the industry they where switching. He could not stop the car and while the door on the end he was going to shove the car into the plant was open, the one on the other end was closed. One of the Foremen at the plant, who was a neighbor and friend of this guy’s was observing the situation and realized his buddy was in serious trouble. He ran to the other end of the plant and depressed the button to open the door at that end. Fortunately for my buddy, this guy’s quick thinking saved the railroad considerable money in a new door and an investigation on the crew involved.
The door rolled up, the car rolled through the now open doorway just clearing the now barely opened door and out the other end of the plant. This Foreman and my buddy said they were both throwing debris like scrap lumber and the like onto the rail to slow and stop the car. When it hit the bumper post at the end of the track, it was rolling very slowly and did no real damage.
It seems the industry gods out muscled the railroad gods on this day. While he got an award for CRI, he managed to remain gainfully employed at the same time. The only ones who knew of the event were the crew, the plant Foreman and then me when he recounted this episode to me. It is good to be able to beat the railroad gods sometimes.
This week we remember the events of September 11th, 2001. I ask all that of my American readers to remember to fly the Stars and Stripes proudly this week. Take time to remember the ones whose lives were lost, those who were injured and those that while they survived the events without physical injury, have been scarred forever by the terrible events of this date. I ask that all of my readers worldwide take a moment to remember as well. There were people from all lands and walks of life involved. Somehow, many of us had a direct connection to somebody there via business, friendship or family.
I would also urge you do something else patriotic and humanitarian as well, donate blood. Many came forth last year after the attacks to donate (including many people that were not citizens but just residents of our country), but since then, the donations have fallen off. The blood banks could really a few deposits right now. If you have never done so, it is rather simple, easy and virtually painless. This entire procedure takes less than forty-five minutes. Plus you get a free soft drink and some munchies for your effort.
The beautiful bride and I will be on vacation this week, so there will be a column ready next week. Hot Times will return in two weeks.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
The Engineer willfully obliged the request from the Conductor and began to quickly back the train up. Before the emergency application took effect bringing everything to a stop, the caboose and two cars had turned over on their sides. But at least they were still clear of the main track.
I can't believe this actually happened. Nobody could be that stupid. Fatigue has to have been a factor.
one with a notation on the back that he is number one in cranial rectal inversion.
He prolly won't know what it means, and will wear it to work and show it to his grandkids.
AEM7
I've seen more than enough "stupid bill of lading tricks" in the Selkirk yards. Pushes into the ladder at 15 MPH (the spoilers'll slow it down - *NOT*) as a cut of cars going into a classification ladder came down the hill and pushed 20 others (plus the 5 adds) onto their side. You try to get away with what you can to maintain the schedule. New York has LOTTO ... so do the railroads. :)
hey guys just saying. we was talkin about TSS running your train. LOL as soon as the crew changed at Bedford park blvd on the D train today, the Motorman charged up and the TSS said "LEMME GIVE YOU A BREAK" i was like whoa!!! some TSS operate better than the regular motorman! maybe cause they been doin it longer! at least this guy didnt fan the brakes on the R68 like most motormen do on the R68. to me, i believe a R68 can be operated like as smooth as any other train
In the last couple of days, here's what has been happening to me with this run:
Saturday - I board a southbound D at 125th. It's running local, even though the GO had just recently ended. It's around 8 in the evening, and I just get on it anyway, figuring how much time advantage would I have if a hoped aboard a A trying to get to the next D in front of this one. Lead motor #2656, with low tone bell chimes. The train gets no further than 96th Street before another D passes us on the express track. The way I figured, I was down by at least 5 minutes. That turned out to be significant, since my train reached 59th Street at around the same time the other D was leaving; my train gets held for that and for an A connection, and I end up missing a southbound F at Rockefeller Ctr.
Sunday - I board a southbound D at 125th. Again, it's on the local, and again, the lead motor is #2656, with low door bell chimes. This time its around 4 in the afternoon. And wouldn't you know it, we get dusted off by a southbound D express, this time at 103rd street. i figured that: a) I'm jinxed, and b) I'm 5-10 minutes on the short end now, a situation that wasn't helped by having to wait for (guess what?) an A connection at 59th. Fortunately, the F was coming un this time at Rockefeller (Note: both times, my train came in on the southbound express track at 34th, and both times it was taken out of service).
Today - Coming from the UN, I get off the M42 at 8th Avenue, looking to catch an uptown A or C to get to my school. I swipe my card to get into the HEET @ the northwest corner of that intersection, but my timing was off and I ended up getting locked out. A guy comes along and uses his pay-per-ride to get me through, but, the same thing happens to me agian (he turned down my offer to pay him back in cash). I end up taking the M104 to 59th, where I hopefully would have better luck.
I would just wait for an express D at 125th. Apparently the tower is sending some D's express. That along with the A would probably save you some time. If you wanted 6th ave, you could always get off at 59th st for a D, not losing any time.
Well unless for some reason there is a delay in A service.
That express run saves three minutes -- no more. Given that a D, which is supposed to run express, pulls in on the local track (a signal that something might be wrong on the express track, or maybe that the D is a few minutes ahead of schedule and sending it local is a delaying tactic), what are the chances that a D express will show up in three minutes or less? Pretty slim. (An A wouldn't help unless it passes not only the D the OP had been on but also the B/D in front of it.) Most likely, if the OP had gotten off and waited for the next train, he would have reached his destination later than if he had just stayed on the local.
Did any one notice that the M's won't be running to Bay Parkway up to 10PM anymore...we all predicted that this would happen...
The M is often overlooked, as in this case. basically, we have the same scenario: Rush Hours to BP, middays to 9 Ave, no service to West End after 8 PM....
Sorry, but that makes more sense...it had low ridership, the people getting on at Bowery didn't justify it either...that was the main reason why the extended it...
All the M did was get in the way of the local R's, the local N's and got it the way of W's crossing into 9th Ave...
Of the many times I rode the M, it would wait until a W pulled up, just so that W could cross first...the poor R train were stuck behind...
Smart move.
They might as well end those Subway Shuttles between Canal Street and Grand Street. There is not one of those whiny asians on it.
You may want to reconsider that racial slur of yours, my friend.
Ok, it's not exactly a slur, but you get my point, no?
Slur? It may not be flattering, but "whiney asians" is not a racial slur. Whiney chinks, gooks, or slant eyes perhaps.
R68A-5200 is right, TA is better off to eliminate the Subway Shuttle Bus. There is no need for that bus, its a total waste of money. The reason why TA offers the Grand St/Canal shuttles bus and M train extension at the first place was because those Whiny Asian complaining to TA and pataki that they don't access between Grand and Brooklyn without the the 6th Ave line B D. PLEASE! Give a me dam break!. Let me tell you what their real excuse was. Their real excuse was that they r to "LAZY" (YES LAZY) to walk few blocks to Canal St Station and to walk a block to Bowery Street Station. Canal Street is only 3 4 blocks from Grand and Bowery St was only 2, 2 1/2 blocks from bowery Station. I don't see how hard it was to walk those few blocks. I live between Bowery and Grand. Daily I walk to Canal to catch the N to school. Or Sometime when there is a storms I use the J M at bowery and transfer to N at canal. That wasn't hard at all. All its takes is "Walk" and "Transfer". ITS SIMPLE! And what do they mean they dont have access between Grand and Brookly? Theres Bowery M Station on one corner and canal on the other. They're full of SH*T! They are Lazy! They whine too much. And thats is their excuse. I live in same community with to these people and I know what they alike.
i agree with ya there.everyone HAS to complain about one thing or another,those crazy chino's(as i like to call them) and everyone else who complain about transfering and say its to far when its only a few blocks away,they're just as you said,lazy.and i add dumb too.for pete sake,why dont people grow up? walking to places and having to walk to transfer no matter how long it may be is a part of life,deal with it.
don't like it? pack your bags and move to another city and that's that.Jeez...
1. Why do you call them "chinos?" I could imagine your not liking it if "they" called you something because of your race (I don't know what your race is). You can avoid silly name-calling and still make your point.
2. What "ExpressM" doesn't seem to get is that the Shuttle Train serves as a signal that the TA isn't abandoning that community as Manny B construction moves forward. It is a relatively minor concession to a neighborhood hard by the bridge, and it reduces tension in the neighborhood regarding this project. If all it took was a Shuttle Train to keep people satisfied, that's dirt cheap.
3. Their whining does, after all, reflect a high usage of the subway and support for mass transit. That's a lot better than the anti-subway NIMBY attitude we see from some people. The neighborhood supports the TA, and that's a good thing.
Yes, that chinos comment was absolutely unecessary!
ExpressM, the whiny is one thing, but connecting it to a name of the race goes too far, IMO. Would you like it if it you heard stuff like whiny black or whiny white. Hmm....
I wouldn't have a problem with someone saying that someone or some group is whiny, but I would rather not inject race where it is WHOLLY UNNECCESSARY. I believe race is a myth fabricated by "white" people to oppress others. It is obsolete and it is time for it to go.
Thank you, American pig. ;-)
Its depends what others think about others. Racism is the last I want to take as consideration. 9/11 touches me alot and made me realized that We shouldn't hate others for who they are. Instead, We should hate the people who taking away our freedom and destroying our lives country and our country. Calling someone or other group "whiny" is NOT considered as racist. But calling others, a racist names/slurs is a racist. If a yellow person came to me and whine. I considered him as whiny person. NOT a whiny yellow person because he's yellow.
i agree with ya there.everyone HAS to complain about one thing or another,those crazy chino's(as i like to call them) and everyone else who complain about transfering and say its to far when its only a few blocks away,they're just as you said,lazy.and i add dumb too.for pete sake,why dont people grow up? walking to places and having to walk to transfer no matter how long it may be is a part of life,deal with it.
don't like it? pack your bags and move to another city and that's that.Jeez...
Well it is obvious that you don't have a firm grasp of the isssues
For one many of the people are elderly caring bags a food for who a 3 block extra walk is a hardship.
You should be appluading a group who uses mass transit rather than drive into the city to go shoping
The TA did the correct thing in the end by providing the shuutle train
Racial prejudice, anyone?
[They might as well end those Subway Shuttles between Canal Street and Grand Street. There is not one of those whiny asians on it.]
1. While not Asian, I must object to the unflattering ethnic comment.
2. The "Grand Canal" bus was implemented because a few politicians got loud. (The loudest was Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, who is decidedly NOT Asian.)
2. The "Grand Canal" should be discontinued because it isn't used by anyone of any description. There are no bodies on the bus, living or otherwise, except for the drivers. Period.
I belong to the asian community and I reaffirm my words. They have whined since day one and they all not walk to Canal instead of Grand. They do all their usual food shopping along the way to Canal instead of Grand. It's more convienent for them to walk and buy their food than to take a bus there. We are rarely go out for a normal trot. We buy our weeks supply of food. We don't need a bus get from Grand as it's not near anything that Canal doesn't have. Most of the "useful" chinatown is south of Canal Street rather than north of Canal. If it were my decision, I'd ask NYCT to remove the line to make the streets less congested.
My conjecture at the time the service plan was making news (last spring), which "R68A - 5200"'s comments seem to support, is that the whining didn't come from the PASSENGERS, it came from the BUSINESSES. The passengers, who were displaced when service on the bridge switched sides, simply found other places to do their business. I'll bet the business owners close to the Canal Street station are jumping for joy.
David
Not sure that theory hangs together completely. The businesses north of Canal, near Grand, are more wholesale and manufacturing. Those right on Canal are mostly retail. If you live in Brooklyn and work near Grand, you have to get there somehow anyway. If you want to shop in Chinatown, I don't think businesses near Canal are direct subtitutes for businesses near Grand.
I should have been more specific...I was referring primarily to grocery stores and the like.
David
If they keep Midday Marys to 9th Avenue, that's still an increase of service. Beforehand, Midday Marys turned at Chambers.
According to the TA's website, which was updated to reflect service changes on the F, W, Q's and N, the Mary still runs to Bay Parkway until 9:30PM weekdays.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/mline.htm
The last M leaving Bay Parkway is at 2051. The eight arrivals after that are all layups.
Which is the same M schedule as before 09/08/02.
Oh, you mean there is a train that gets shafted more than the Sea Beach? Very interesting. But the M does become somewhat repetitive with some other lines once it gets into the heart of Brooklyn. Perhaps it could be re-routed a little bit.
Hey if it were up to me, I'd restore all 4 tracks on the SB and resume some type of "NX" express service.
There are lots of lower priorities than the (N). The (C) and (G) for instance, to say nothing of the Eastern Division lines. The (N) is a busy line, and is treated as such.
:-) Andrew
Oh boy.here we go.''Low prority''Eastern division routes[J/M/L/Z]get craped on again.
At this link http://www.nycsubway.org/bus/joet/qu/ta-sf12.jpg
shows a snow bus and a few old NYC Transit buses. The caption states it the Rockaway Park Yard. It wrong. Since I grew up in Canarsie and went to school right around the corner from this yard. This picture should be moved to the Rockaway Parkway Yard. The picture was taken some where between E 99 St and E 101 St and Glenwood Rd in Canarsie.
What did the bus say on the side?
New York City Transit Authority.
In the same font that the used on the top of the regular busses of the time.
eace,
ANDEE
Story:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/09/09/India.traincrash.reut/index.html
BTW, around the time of the last big Indian passenger crash - in the North East of the country, as I recall - The Economist magazine pointed out that, in terms of the ration of casualties to passenger journies per km, the Indian Railways are no more dangerous than Western Europe's
FWIW, BBC World Service carried a story claiming 'fishplates' had been removed. 'minister' alleged sabotage.
Typical. Plate theives. It's not sabotage... it's people needing scrap metal for $$$. Why would they do this on a bridge, I do not know.
All right...I'll accept my engineering incompetence...what is a 'fish plate?' I do not only know the construction mandates of the Burma Line but also the 'Bridge over the River Kwai.' Is that the utensile used to hold what I look at to be chopped turtle guts? You want torture??? Eat lunch in my shop lunchroom while your partners consume fragrant chunks of..............and barf your guts out.
Fish plate = Angle Bar (rail joint)
You really got to post this when I'm on the prowl??? 'Thankyouverrrrymuch, pleeese do watch the closing of the opening doors and stand aside of the hungry tigers and crocodiles.' Perhaps the trainset was sans 'MOOOOOOO Diesel.' Luxury train is ten cars on the #7 with air conditioning.
Curious to know if any of us blokes
will be attending/observing the
re-opening of the RECTOR-SOUTH FERRY
branch on the 1/9 this Saturday Midnite..
There's safety in numbers... or am I just 1?
If someone is kind enough to post the exact schedule of the first revenue train to South Ferry, I'll be on it, probably boarding at 242nd.
The Station Opens at 12:01 AM ON Sunday the 15th. So I am going down to Chambers Street and waiting for the first train to enter with the Conductor saying "to south ferry". So expect the first revenue train to leave around 10:30. Or 11:00-11:30.
That's not the sort of information I find terribly useful, especially since just because we know what time the station opens doesn't mean we have any idea when the first train will come through. I'm going up to the Bronx so I have some chance of claiming the front windowlet (the blue-stickered R-62A's will probably be off the 1 by then, so it won't have a full railfan window) so I need to plan ahead.
But if you are getting on at Chambers, you won't need to listen to announcements. If a train is on the express track, it's going to Brooklyn; if it's on the local track, it's going to South Ferry. Guaranteed. The express track already begins its dip to clear the NB local track before the platform ends, so there certainly isn't room for any switches south of the station.
By the time SF opens Sun morning, the 1 will already be terminating at Chambers, so that 1 on the express track will be going back uptown. I looked at the work programs and the the first midnight crew is not due to arrive at SF until 1am. So it looks like there will be a supplement schedule on hand. Plus if the 215 St GO is in effect, then I say the first train to leave from 215 to the ferry will be around 11:15pm-11:20. I would be at 215 at around 11pm.
Wherever that 1 on the express track is going, it's not South Ferry, guaranteed. That's all anyone waiting at Chambers needs to know.
If someone here happens to see the supplement, please post the relevant times. I'm also curious about whether there will be any 2 expresses or 3's to Brooklyn that night.
The 215 GO is not running that weekend (according to the most recently posted service advisories). It's been pushed off to the following weekend.
As of Tuesday night, there is no supplements. I dont think that the 2 will run express since itll be midnight. IDK when the first scheduled express will be.........
Please keep us informed if you see anything! I don't want to be stuck waiting an hour in the Bronx.
(Is there any chance the T/O won't even know in the Bronx if his train's going to SF or only to Chambers? I don't want to miss the first train through because the T/O didn't know it was going through. Maybe it's safer to wait with the crowds at Chambers after all.)
He should know where he's going. Keep in mind though, that reroutes happen often and with not much advance warning.
I just got an email about the first train to SF will leave 242 around 10pm. I heard from coworkers that sometime Sat nite, the 1st train to SF was scheduled to depart from the Bx. Im not on the 1 Sat so I do not have anymore details..............
If you're up to checking out the new trackage
and tunnel----- then we gotta have that WINDOW!!
A Livonia unit, hopefully...
I believe the schedule reads 2150 out of 242 and 2243 out of Chambers Street. Be there Aloha!
If South Ferry isn't opening until 0001, how can that be? It doesn't take 78 minutes to get from Chambers to South Ferry.
...going where??
Riiiight... but if something is "out of Chambers"
you DO realize it most surely means in the
nb direction... Mahalo.
It's way past my bedtime, but I plan to be there. If I make it, I'll be on the southbound platform wearing the "Signal Control Modifications" shirt.
I'm taking a trip to the SI Mall on Sunday which will conclude with a trip home on the 1 train.it seems like love9400 wants to go with me so we can settle our problems and maybe be friends. hey love9400,I plan on being at the brooklyn bound platform of the Q,R,W trains at Times Sq.meet me there between 10:30 and 11:00 AM.with all that I wanna do,it's gonna take the whole day,especially with every damn bus being every half hour.so how bout it? does that sound good to you?
I am soooooooooooooooooooooooo there! Give me a schedule so I can decide where to board. Wear nice clothes and maybe we can be on the front page of the NY Times. Also, bring a camera. I heard Pete Sampras is going to be there.
Riiiiiight. What you said.
!!!!..........!........
missed this by ONE DAY will arrive on L.I. on the 16th !!!
..........no lol !!
Oh No Mr Bill !
Hold on to you childern Salmonella is going to be in the house.
i dont know about ""Salmonella"" .........!...........?
i did meet mr bill back in da' 70s !! that dude was something else !
i consider myself COMING HOME to my birthplace ( 11 3 51 )
what you should have said is { we are not worthy } ........!!!
my work is cut out for me in 3 weeks
lol
Mr Bill was a clay figure on Saturday Night Live ;-)
yea my daughter loved him !! >>oh nooooooooo mr bill .!!
a cartoon doll with a lot of morbid S&M .....!!
i thought the 1970s saturay nignt series was the best .....
never will forget the live performance of jr walker ....wow !!
What about:
- Mr. Roger's house
- Cheeze Burger, Cheeze Burger, Pepsi, Pepsi ... coke, no pepsi
- The Pope in the pizza
- Hans & Frans
- Roseanna-anna-danna ... "Ohhhhh never mind"
It was funny then ....
Don't forget:
-Land Shark
-Samuri Night Fever
-The Coneheads
-The Ford/Carter Debates
-2 wild and crazy guys
-Chico Escuela
etc...
"Cheeze Burger, Cheeze Burger, Pepsi, Pepsi ... coke, no pepsi."
I had a friend in high school who loved SNL but very rarely went downtown. Unaware of the existence of the "Billy Goat Tavern" as a real place in Chicago, he believed it was ONLY an SNL skit. When I told him once that I had gone to eat there, he looked at me with pity, because he thought I was making up a rather poor lie (of course there's no Billy Goat!) in order to brag. When he took me aside to explain why I was wrong, I ended up with the last laugh of explaining to him why HE was wrong.
My grandson & the BMTman have had lunch with me at Tom's Resturant on Broadway at 112th Street, aka Sinefield.
I worked in the area for 11 years & watched it evolve from a dumpy college kid coffee shop to a the yuppy place it is now.
After John would say Cheezeburger, Danny would reply "Cheeboogie, cheeboggie,etc.) I laughed so hard the first time I saw that, I
was in process of taping the sound from the show, and you could her me!
Chuck Greene
None of the young people that staff Mickey D's have a clue about this skit :-(
For years and years we went to Mickey D's and gave them the Cheesburger act. It was a blast. Everybody looked at you like you were nuts.
Chuck Greene
I also use to used "can NOT have it your way at, can't have it your way at ....."
was there any subway scenes on saturay night live ( on topic )
???????????????????????????????????
They weren't funny so we don't remember them ;-)
They did a sketch about not being able to hear station announcements. I believe Harvey Keitel hosted that episode and was in that sketch. Rob Schneider also played an underground musician who insists he's not starving, but keeps singing that he is.
A fake commercial about press-on corn chips set on an R-44 A.
20% chance I will be there
Will know Thursday for sure
As of tonight -
Cars 6571-75 and 7026-30 in service on the 5.
Cars 7031-40 road testing for 5 Service.
R-142A Trainset #3 and #4 in service on the 4 - 7676-80 and 7691-95, as well as 7696-7705. No sign of 7686-90 and 7706-10. These were testing sometime ago.
Is it safe to assume 7711-20 are here and roaming about?
-Stef
I saw a Jerome Redbird set at 207 St middle on the 1 line. The only car# I could make out was 9273.
Spare me more R142s coming in out of inspection on #5...I'm really thinking about 207th or Concourse now...just want a parking space for my car and resonable subway travel time. CI Peter
To Stef and SubBus: be on the lookout for 6801 and its mate. On my vacation last week I dropped in on NY&A facilities last Thursday. They had car 6801 on a flatbed with another unit (couldn't get a look at the plate#) behind it on another flat. They must've been received from CP Rail the day before.
No signs of 6801-05, not to say they haven't been delivered to the barn. I'll keep my eyes peeled for all unusual activity.
Thanks!
-Stef
Good man!
Hey Stef: Just saw R142A #7716-#7720 @ Unionport Yard early afternoon while i was driving on Bronx River Parkway.
David J.
Thank You! We know another 5 cars are accounted for. That leaves 7711-15 and 7721-30 as what is left of KHI's committment to the R-142A order.
-Stef
You guys would not believe what I've now just experience? I just had my first R46 W Train ride. Not that I say I never ride the W. The train that rode back to Chinatown from brooklyn 1/2hours ago was a R46 W train. Sorry guys, I didn't expect to see R46 on the W, so I didn't brought camera with me. But, I doubt that I will MIGHT see it again. And starting today my camera will be travel with me. R32, Slant, and now R46 on the W, I think W will be getting the mix bag from now on.
I guess it was a rerouted R, so they made it a W. I don't think they plan on putting R46's on the W.
Well I thought it was R. I couldn't belive it myself either, but rollsign on the front and end display W along with the electronic sign display W - Broadway local - Astoria. After I got off at canal I look at train and couldn't take eyes off. The conductor look me and thought I'm crazy. My chin dropped the ground.
I was heading home from my friends place, I board the train at 9th Ave and I couldn't believe what I saw.
And when I posted few weeks ago that the 46 was being updated with W signs No one believed me.BUt be on ythe look out for 2 r 46 's to run on the w everyday
2 sets of R46's? On the "W"??
You realize that these MU's are shopped in Jamaica, no where near the W's running. Who told you that there would be 2 trains of 46's on the "W" as a daily run?
I guess they are serious about getting R32's on the F, if an R46 or two has spilled over to South Brooklyn.
So far I have seen no more than the usual ratio of R46s to R32s on the (F) this week. Actually, I haven't identified a single R32 (F) in the last two days.
And there is no reason why they would regularly use R46s on the (W), regardless of what they want to do or don't want to do with the (F). The R46s are all serviced at Jamaica. There's no rason to service the (W) there.
:-) Andrew
CI shops all W's since the regular assignment is R68A. A set of R46's are possibly being borrowed from the F since some R46's from that line usually lay up at Avenue X Yard. I don't think that something like that would be that uncommon. Think of the Q right after the 9/11 attacks when a set of R46's ran there. I am sure that this will only last for a rarety occasion. Now I do see the 46's running on F, R, G, V and E, but W, Nahhhhhhhh!
actually,if something goes wrong and one of the W trains can't make it,then dont you shouldnt be suprised to see another train put in service to replace it,R46 or not.
1. If the originator of this thread is telling the truth (which isn't a given), then what he saw was a fluke.
2. Every single R46 is shopped in Jamaica. Every single W car is shopped in Coney Island. The two don't mix.
Obviously it will be hard for you to believe me cause I don't have a camera with me at that time. Course I don't blame you for not believing me. At this time the proof is NA.
What most likely happened was that one of the City Hall R put-in's or layup's was pulled for W service due to a delay.
One time, I was working a PM job on the R out of City Hall and was supposed to make a run from Whitehall St to Continental Av for the PM rush. A delay occurred on the N, so City Hall Tower instructed us to turn the train (R46) into an N and run it in service from Canal St to Astoria.
Something like this probably happened on that day. Do not expect this to become a daily occurance.
Zman 179!.. YOU'RE MY HERO!
[What most likely happened was that one of the City Hall R put-in's or layup's was pulled for W service due to a delay.]
Sounds very plausible. In any case, it's nice that the W Line Superintendent was willing to allow oddball equipment - some Line Supers would prefer to abandon interval after interval rather than deviate from the official car assignment.
Most line supt`s will use cars from other lines. It`s called "stealing a train". Only happens when a train is extended in service (ex. R extended to 179 then used for F service) or when a train reaches the end of the line.
Bottom line is that a line supt would rather use a foreign train than ABD an interval. Affects the bottom line (and their bonuses).
When the road gets back to normal, the stolen train is then returned to it's "rightful owner" after the run.
But if the F steals a train from the R, isn't the R short a train? Now it has to steal a train from some other line.
Chances are that the F wouldn't steal an R, since the places where that is likely to happen are fairly close to Jamaica Yard - easier to steal a train from there.
When I was working the Queensbridge Shuttle and we lost a train, we would steal an R68 from the B and force them into using their gap train (stored north of 145 after the AM rush) or grabbing a train from Concourse Yard.
Are there any R's there? I do remember one but that was due to a GO.
Hmmm, I do remember someone here mention one 8 car set of R46 appear on the N last year, think it was back during October where major subway service changes take place after 9/11. Now, if R46 apparently did appear on the N once, then that R46 could the W that I saw 1:30 AM early this morning.
"2" is a pretty definite number. I wonder where it came from, especially given the FACT that the F Daily timetable that went into effect this week is the same F Daily timetable that's been in effect since December 2001, and the FACT that the W Daily timetable has exactly ZERO interlines on it.
David
This is the first time I've EVER heard of a train of R-46s running on other than the "E", "F", "G", and "R" trains for a long time. I wonder what prompted the change?
#3 West End Jeff
My man Zman179 has the answer on his response "ExpressM is probably telling the truth....was Re: R46 on the W"
I'm surprised you haven't heard of R-46's running on the V.
How many trains of R-46s are running on the "V"?
#3 West End Jeff
15 trains of eight cars.
And nothing else. Since the V started running in December, it's used nothing but R-46's.
yea but on 9/8/01 when the V tested, there was a R32 on the V from jamaica, and a borrowed R40 slant from CI YARDS. prolly a Q diamond that was on layup for weekend service
Is there really any need for the M service South of Broad St anyway??
As long as I can remember, ridership between the Nassau branch and South Brooklyn was never high anyway, even when the M ran on the Brighton line (then, most people on the M trains transferred from the D express at the express stops). M trains seemed to only benefit riders between the City and Metropolitan Ave portion. I guess it would cause a lot of back-ups to have all M J and Z trains turning at Broad St, but would it be feasible to terminate all M trains at Broad St, and perhaps turn Z trains at Chambers??
if your suggestion was accepted, there would then be no service at any time from Broad Street to Brooklyn; Broad Street would become a terminus. The Nassau street loop would no longer be a loop. Essex Street/Delancey Street, Canal Street, Chambers St/Brooklyn Bridge, and Fulton St/Broadway Nassau are all linked to Brooklyn by other lines, and Bowery is notoriously little-used. Does it matter that Broad Street is isolated -- Wall Street, Whitehall Street and Bowling Green, with services to Brooklyn, are all pretty close by?
Tony,
The Nassau St Loop ceased to be a loop back in the late 1960's when the Christie St connection was built (unless you know something the rest of us don't).l
I really don't think the it would be a good idea to turn the Z at Chambers. That would deny the Z riders the transfer station at Fulton, which connects to a few lines. As for the M continuing through the Montague tunne, I think some sort of service shoud be kept there. I don't know if the West End is the best option, but it's definitely better than no service through. The Nassau line has so much capacity than is used. I think a great way to increase the use of the line and finally turn it into a very used connection, would be if they connect the 2 Ave subway to it like they proposed. It would give the 2 Ave subway an instant connection to Brooklyn, and finally utilize more of the capacity of the line. There is plenty of room for the 2 Ave to use the Nassau line. Then and only then should the M or J/Z be cut back to Chambers or maybe even send the M through the Chrystie connection to 6th Ave.
Until then the M should continue to run the way it does or to 95th via the R or possibly even back to Brighton when the MB reopens in 2004.
Out of about 46 tph inbound at DeKalb in the AM rush, only the 6 Ms go to Broad St. A lot of people work in eastern lower Manhattan (e.g., on Water St.). Those people would have a longer, and extremely inconvenient, walk to work if they had to take the N or R. Crossing Broadway is very unpleasant, and the crosstown streets are so narrow you are always in danger of being sideswiped by a passing truck.
Also, if you didn't have the M in from Brooklyn, you'd need more N and R trains, so I don't think it would save any money to terminate the M at Broad.
I don't have numbers, but it does seem like the M serves a purpose for Brooklyn riders.
People do take the M south from Manhattan into Brooklyn. Lots of people, in fact.
I don't think it matters much where the train goes once past DeKalb and Atlantic/Pacific. The closest place to turn trains is 9th Avenue, and that's where the midday M turns, also benefitting 4th Avenue local stations. Rush hours it's extended as a convenience to West End patrons.
The trains don't have to be packed solid for it to be a useful service. The Fulton Street transfer alone makes it useful.
I never understood why the Nassau St connection is lesser used relative to the R stations on Trinity Place. Especially with the WTC gone, Nassau St line is nearer to so many more jobs.
Is Broad less used than Rector (N/R)? My limited observations would say not. Whitehall is probably heavily used because of the ferry.
It is, but the N/R runs to more useful points to the north and has shorter headways to the south.
I rode the M from Canal to Dekalb a week or 2 ago, due to a problem on the Q and wanting to get off the crowded platform at Canal. I'll have to say it was pretty empty at 6:00pm. I remember in the late 60s/early 70s the QJ and M would be more crowded.
Look at it this way. Given the choice between City Hall on the N/R or Chambers St, which would you use on a regular basis? Chambers is the most decrepit station in the system, downright spooky. Fulton St station is such a maze that only regulars can find the platform. Only Broad St is useful. For Canal St you'll take the Q or W, for Bowery, well nobody uses Bowery...
Given the choice between City Hall on the N/R or Chambers St, which would you use on a regular basis? Chambers is the most decrepit station in the system, downright spooky.
Mightn't it depend on where I'm going? What if I need to transfer to the 4/5/6 and I just want to take the first Lex train that comes, local or express? Chambers is the only place I can make that transfer from the BMT.
Fulton St station is such a maze that only regulars can find the platform.
Fulton is one of the biggest transfer points in the system. It's the only decent transfer between the BMT and the A/C. And if you terminate one of the J/M/Z at Chambers, you're cutting off access to the A/C and 2/3 from points north.
Only Broad St is useful. For Canal St you'll take the Q or W, for Bowery, well nobody uses Bowery...
What about Essex, another major transfer point?
For Canal I'd probably take the M if it came first -- especially if I'm coming from a 4th Avenue local station.
The truth is the Nassau line was/is probably the most neglected line in Manhattan, if not the entire system. It's sort of odd because it has some the best connections in the system and on it's short run though Manhattan it connects with every major trunk line in Manhattan, and just about every line in the system. I really think that as they clean the Nassau line up it will increase in ridership. From a commuter's viewpoint it is probably one of the most depressing lines to ride. Who would want to have to use the depressing Chambers St station everyday - or the Queens-bound Canal St or Bowery? Even Essex is a rather ugly station (I used it every day for 2 years). Fulton was very ugly before they renovated it. They also did a great job at Broad and the one side of Canal. I think that when they abandon half of Bowery and Canal, and hopefully do a "retro" look at Essex (like they did at Broad and Fulton) and mercifully give Chambers some help, more people will actually use the line.
Shifting gears a bit, let me ask you:
Before the Fulton rehab, do you remember if there was any visible evidence of an old mezzanine and/or underpass a block south of the existing one?
I don't remember really. For one semester I used the 2/3 line once a week, as it was closer to a class I was taking in college, and instead of using the F to Delancy to get the M, I used the 2/3 transfer to the M at Fulton. That was about 1990 I guess. I should have payed more attention, but I wasn't a full-fledged "railfan" yet. I just remember that Fulton had maroon tiles in IND style (I did know that much back then), and it was a wreck, but don't remember any evidence of an old mezzanine.
The TA's renovations at Fulton and Broad involved the replacement of the original tiling with more ornate tiling that was NOT a copy of the original.
As was the case with 8th Avenue station on the BMT Canarsie Line, the renovations involved stripping the IND-type tiling and replacing it with fake BMT styled tiling.
If they wanted to retain the original flavor, they should have simply renovated the IND style tiling.
Actually, I know that. I remember all three of those stations in their "IND" look. What I meant when I said "retro" look when describing Fulton and Broad (And Essex too which only had very plain white "IRT brick-type" tiles originally) was a look more like the much older stations on the line like Canal and Bowery. I think the new "retro" look at those stations does fit in nicer with the look of the Nassau line that they did when they were new!
Chris
No, what we see now was the original BMT DESIGNS of those stations. By the time they were built, of course, the upcoming new IND style was what was actually put in place, as the tendency started to become less ornateness (just like building architecture at the same time).
What you see NOW at these stations is a SIMULATED look. Those arent original BMT designs.
If the floavor and mood of the original stations was to be kept, which was the point, then everything should have rebuilt to the way it was.
What you see NOW at these stations is a SIMULATED look. Those arent original BMT designs.
If the flavor and mood of the original stations was to be kept, which was the point, then everything should have rebuilt to the way it was.
The M IS needed in Brooklyn!! Why is everybody dumping on it?! 9St/4Av have a lot of passengers and they need a direct local access to West End. In rush hours, M trains can be crowded from West End to Essex.
Ayup it is 2:34 AM Tuesday...do not forget to vote in your partys best candidate for governor. New York does not allow independent voters to participate...only allowed to be sucked up in jury service.
Grand Jury service is a blessing for civil servants...one month of vacation! Schuks...six years to go!
Wife got Grand Jury that was held over for 3 months. Last month they were on an "on call" basis, they were called the night before to come in.
Usually, you get one month of mornings or afternoons for Grand Jury. I had suffered for a month...mornings for GD and all-nighters for service calls....I was entitled to and received my salary and the GD payments. Few can be exempt from GD....there are no decisions of justice made....and the term is only for a month. Lou: I'm afraid your wife missed judges instructions unless she needed time away from you! Three months ususally means special closed door investigations with sealed lips. Three months of frozen pizza, macaroni and cheese, diet soda and TV Guide. Twenty one years alone on the road and where are the wimmen Car Inspectors hiding??? CI peter
After Friday, I've been told that the 6 line will no longer run that redbird that they "borrow" from the 5 line. So if you want to catch the redbird 6 that runs between Brooklyn Bridgy and Parkchester, you'd better hurry. It runs mainly between 3:00pm and 7:00pm. I don't know what it does for the AM rush.
so no more after this week i will be there on the 16th .........
i am outta luck ??................!
As far as I know, you're out of luck. According to several people on the 6 line, that PM job on the 6 line which ends the day on the 5 line has been eliminated for the next pick, thus eliminating the redbird on the 6 as well.
Alas yes, my hope is that they will remain on the "7" line for awhile yet, which makes sense since they are the newest, highest-numbered redbirds and if history repeats itself the TA usually scraps equipment in sequential order.
I think it's a 5 in the AM rush.
But thanks for the reminder.
I have looked at the NYCSubway.org site history section somewhat and have encountered something I'd like to check by means of this message board. Topic: the rebuilt Greenwich Street IRT due to be reopened this month. It appears that the first time this tunnel was built, it was constructed underneath an elevated structure from the bend at West Broadway (and Vesey Street) to Battery Place. It seems that about the same time, the el was triple-tracked. In other places in our vast subway system, it is obvious in the subway when the route was placed under an already-existing el. We see extra supports in the 8th Avenue line north of 110 Street, along Fulton Street (Brooklyn), and under Sixth Avenue. Yet, I do not recall extra supports in the tunnel under Greenwich Street. How was the el supported over the tunnel? Or is my geography messed up? Thanks. Joe McMahon
...1932...The first stretch of the IND train system goes into operation along Eighth Avenue.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm popping some champagne tonight to celebrate. :)
70 years!
Randy Kennedys Take on the recently discussed "Love Car" movement.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you could make your daily commute on any one rail transit line in the world, what would it be, all other things being equal? That is, supposing you could magically have that line in whatever place you want to live, and be working at any job you like, what line would you want to look at twice a day every week day for your entire professional life?
Here's my answer: My dream would be to commute on SEPTA's Route 100 light rail line. The cars are wonderful and the scenery is beautiful. I have runners-up, too. Seeing Mt. Hood for Portland's MAX everyday would be great, as would seeing the Wasatch range from the UTA Trax every morning and evening. If I think of any more I'll add them.
Mark
If we're nosing around that area, I would prefer the Media Line.
A great choice. I love the wooded scenery the SEPTA 101 trolley passes through.
Mark
I think I should add Atlanta's MARTA to that list, too. I've always loved riding that train during layovers.
Mark
I guess I'm living your dream. Do you have any layovers planned for here? We should get together and railfan sometime.
For me:
London's Metropolitan Line, transfer for District Line to Earl's Court, I think the segment running alongside the Jubliee line is my favorite stretch of track in the world. Plus Baker St is one of the most historical subway stations in the world (ie, it's the oldest), and I love the small open cuts and brick lined tunnels in the Cirle/District. Earl's Coutrt is a large station and I like the old destination boards.
MARTA's East Line from Avondale to Five Points, this is my favortie segment of MARTA. It's mostly ground level and passes through some of my favorite neighborhoods. The elevated section between Inman Park and Georgia State has a view of an intermodal frieght yard and the best view of Atlanta's skyline.
Sao Paulo Line 3-Red or Line 6-Orange, Line 3 looks alomst the MARTA East line. Line 6 runs as an express to Line 3 and you get get nice views of the trains running right next to you. At the Western end of both lines is one of the busiest stations in the system, and it's cool to people watch.
Nightmare line: Sao Paulo commuter rail Line D. The amount of crowding is ungodly. It's cool to ride once in a while for the experince, but hell if you had to do it everyday.
British James would no doubt agree with you about the open-air Metropolitan/Jubilee line stretch, since his favourite, Chiltern Trains (ex-Great Central Railway), also runs alongside, making six tracks wide. For a short stretch near West Hampstead, my line (the Midland) is just about in sight of it too, with just a supermarket car park in between.
I'd agree with you about the north side of the Circle Line, the oldest undergraound railway in the world. I'd vary it slightly and go to Hammersmith by the Hammersmith & City instead of Earls Court by the District. That's not a fanciful commute -- there are plenty of workplaces at Hammersmith. Or if one lived at Hammersmith, then a commute from Hammersmith to Farringdon would encompass the attractive "el" from Hammersmith to Paddington and then the oldest (1863) section from Paddington to Farringdon.
Judging from the photos from this site, I think all the outside stretches of the Underground are the best. The Metropolian Line was the only outside segment I rode. I never rode the Hammersmith to Paddington. I rode all of the circle, but I hardly remember the northern/eastern half.
That'd be cool. I've never met another SubTalker, though I did narrowly miss Chuchubob when we were both in Boston for the same conference, each riding the T unaware of the proximity of each other.
I agree with you about the views of Atlanta's skyline from the East Line. They're wonderful.
Speaking of Brazil, my fiance has friends in Belo Horizonte. We plan on visiting them someday and I hope I can get a ride in. Have you ever ridden that system or do you know anything about it?
Mark
I have never been to Belo Horizonte, but I heard it is a pretty city. I know the system is a former national railroad line, so I'd guess it would feel like commuter rail than a subway. Unless they did major upgrades like Sao Paulo did.
I guess I'll find out for certain if we go down there. I'll try to get a good supply of pictures, too!
Mark
The Hudson Line is very pretty, especially so between Beacon and Peekskill.
Another wonderful ride...my soon-to-be in-laws live in the Hudson Valley and my fiance and I sometimes visit them on Amtrak, running on the same right-of-way along the banks of the Hudson. Great choice!
Mark
I greatly enjoyed my 15 years of reverse commuting on SEPTA's Route 100/Norristown High Speed Line/Philadelphia & Western Railroad, riding Strafford cars and Bullet cars between 69th Street and Radnor.
I like the Coaster route in Southern California along the ocean between San Diego and Oceanside. The trains have a nice look and the views along the Pacific can't be beat.
Chris
That's for sure. And don't forget the really pretty canyon that the train goes through when it leaves the beach just north of San Diego!
Mark
Yeah, it's an amazing route. I have some great slides of Amtrak and Coaster there. I will post them one day.
I think i'd have to go western US too. But instead of California, I'd have to go Sounder out of Seattle north to Everett, preferably living somewhere on the Kitsap Pennisula or Whidby Island, riding the Washington State Ferryto the train station in either Mukilteo or Edmonds station. The ride is beautiful, departing the Downtown tunnel, running north past the waterfront, then through balmer yard, cross the Ship Canal, after that a straight shot north along Puget Sound through Shoreline and so on. I'm not sure which station I'd rather go to, Edmonds gets the bigger Jumbo class ships Spokane and Puyallup while Mukilteo is almost exculsively the route of the Issaquah 130 class Kittitas and Cathlamet, but the Edmonds route is much crowded year round with people coming and going from the Kitsap Pennisula, however, Whidby island is VERY expensive, and gets very very crowded in the summer months. Either way, the Ferry ride on either route is just as beautiful as the train ride. To add to this, It'd be nice to see the I-5 monorail get built with a station at or near Boeing Field and to work as an Engineer on the floor at Boeing Field. Heck, this is all just a dream, right?
I must admit that the line is still under construction, set to open in 2003, and then only with stations at Seattle, Edmonds, Mukilteo and Everett, although more stations are undoubtedly planned. Also, Sounder currently only runs two trains per day each direction on the currently completed Seattle-Tacoma route, with the extra trainset currently leased to VRE, but that too will change in 2003, when the extended line will allow more trains.
My dream commute? A short one!
I currently am making it. I get to ride the Medical Center to Grosvenor stretch of the Red Line every day and I get the occasional 75 MPH running, too. What more could I want?
My dream commute would be on the Piccadilly Line in London. I just adore the express run between Acton Town & Hammersmith.
I enjoy Metro North Harlem line going thru heavily wooded northern Westchester County, seeing Deer in the forests. It is hard to believe that third rail electrification goes this far north!
Ten minutes drive to a yard with a special parking spot marked 'OnTheJuice' just twenty minutes away by subway.
Not so farfetched or a fantasy anymore!
The Empire Line on Amtrak, blowing through all of those Metro North stations between Croton-on-the-Hudson and Marble Hill(?) on the express tracks. While Amtrak is not a subway line, if they had express runs like that in the subways, I'd ride that run just for the sheer adrenaline rush.
No Commute at all
If you're coming from Albany to NYC that's a commute.
You can ride the 5:09 to Poughkeepsie for that effect. From 125 straight to Beacon. Non Stop.
Some people's dream commute is to have their death sentence commuted to lfe in prison.
Sorry, it was too tempting...
My dream commute would be to pilot an NJ Transit Arrow III train from New Rochelle NY to 30 Street Station-Philadelphia with new stations built between New Rochelle and Penn Station. These new stations would be from north to south: Co-op City, Parkchester, Bronx River, Hunts Point, Port Morris, Astoria, Hunters Point. South of Trenton, we would stop at North Philadelphia only, then to 30 St Station. How's that for a dream commute? It may happen. You never know.
at least on redbird on the # 2 !!!!
In New York - I like Metro-North's Hudson Line express train from Croton-Harmon to GCT with MU equipment. The usual stops at Ossining, Tarrytown, Yonkers and 125th Street is fine.
Wayne
A lot of you hate Moses because he rammed highways down NYer's throats, disregarding anyone in the path. Well, my friends, we now have an entity, not a person, who makes Moses look like a politican who attends public meetings.
Here in Atlanta, we have a very contrversial highway proposed called the Northern Arc which has been proposed by leaders who have land, friends, or whatever who would profit if it were built. here are some things the state government is doing: We have the GDOT (my work) Board of Directors Chairman prank calling an anti-arc activist, found out that many people who donated money to our governor's campaign own land next to the route, and conflict of interest stories were appearing everyday in the spring. Today, we find out that a pro-road lobby has been using peoples' email addresses to send letters of support to regional planners, Read Here. And also, just read the headlines (from oldest to newest) of this archive here, notice what kind of bullshit you can get from just the headlines. And please look at the map of where campaign contributors own property.
Right now, the governor "put a hold" on Arc planning as a political move to get more votes this November. Right now, our transportation plan is heavily favored towards transit, but this road would suck out all the money for transportation projects for the next twenty years. Hardly any transit will get built if this highway is approved. Fortunately, most poeple in the city are aganist it. The attitude of the city has changed that people now want more transit because they see that roads will never solve the problem. We got something worse than Moses trying to shove a road down our throat, but they won't succeed.
It sounds like the pro-Arc crowd resorted to these tactics because they knew it was their only chance of winning. For all the cliches about the love affair with the automobile, it really does seem as if people are coming to realize that more and more road construction is not always the solution, and furthermore that transit serves a vital purpose.
Don't give up. Lower Manhattan residents stopped Robert Moses from building an expressway through their neighborhood. It took a lot of work and organizing, and Atlantans will have to do the same to fight the arc, but at least there is precedent that it can be done.
Mark
I'm pretty confident it will be stopped. There's a well funded group, Northern Arc Task Force, that's already starting the lawsuits.
The scariest thing to me about Moses was his ability to work almost in secret, until the bulldozers showed up -- at least in this case people are on top things.
True, but they are trying to work in secret, but the area newspapers are digging through every little thing to find the dirt. Many people who are in charge of voting of the highway never disclosed conflict of interest reports that they have finanical ties to the road. In the last link I posted, ther is an article about how they secretly changed toll rules to allow tolls from other roads to pay for the Arc.
Is this a road which would bypass Atlanta, and encourage suburban sprawl with people never even setting foot within the city?
Bad news..
Yes, it is. Plus it's too far north to actually do any good for traffic towards the center. The highway is solely for putting more money into politicans' wallets.
From an article in the Times, concerning "terrorism preparedness" on the part of many paranoid bed-wetting coward New Yorkers:
Mr. Long and his wife, Jennifer, who live in the East 20's in Manhattan, have also largely abandoned the subway, which they see as a potential terrorist target.
I'd gladly burn in Hell for all eternity for the chance to slap some sense into these people. Christ Almighty, some people make me want to barf.
After tomorrow, when thy can't get to work or whereever they want to go in a timely fashion, Mr & Mrs Long will be taking the subway again.
So using the subway nowadays is an act of bravery? I'm not so sure about that.
If a terrorist decides to use the subway as a target, seeing millions of people in front of him will not scare him.
It doesn't matter if they are all giving him a mean look. Or they are all shaking a fist at him. Or even if they are all waving American flags. Such an attack on the subway may not be able to be prevented by brave people like those men and women that fought back on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania.
Such things would give his warped mind more reason to do what he plans to do. Remember the nerve gas attack in Japan a few years ago?
People have to understand one thing and one thing only. These monsters do not care about what WE may think is brave or defiant.
They do not understand in this way. Can you act defiant to an animal? Of course not. Animals do not have the ability to think or reason. And that is the same way with these monsters. They reverted back down the evolutionary chain centuries ago.
There is a difference between being brave and being foolhardy.
I think I understand what these people are talking about. Their refusal to take the subway is not necessarily an act of cowardliness. They may simply see the fact that the city is not doing enough to protect the subway from a possible attack. Hell, at least the DC Metro talked about installing some kind of sensors that would detect hazardous chemicals. NYC didn't even mention doing that.
I dare say that the number of police in the subway has gone down in the months following 9/11. There was a high presence for a while, then it disappeared.
There is something to be said about complacency. The tired old adage of "it can't happen here" or "they wouldn't dare" are long obsolete.
Someone even told me that people in the city are used to not having to deal with so many police and security all around them. Really? That's a shame. But that may be music to a terrorist's ears.
These bastards have proved they can do such evil things. And if given the chance they will do it again. It's up to us to figure out a way to stop them or at least thwart them. Just puffing out our collective chests and acting brave will not do much.
What the Longs are not telling us is that they probably never liked the subway to begin with. This is a convenient excuse for snobs.
It's fine by me. Ridership is so high we need the standing room.
What the Longs are not telling us is that they probably never liked the subway to begin with. This is a convenient excuse for snobs.
Good point.
My thoughts exactly.
...it's also a convenient excuse for the neurotic, the population of which I found to be exceptionally high in Manhattan. A guy I knew would only use papaer towels and not dish towels because he was afraid of germs.
The Longs were probably always afraid of the subway. They were probably afraid of the drinking water too. And the air pollution. And so on...
While I am disapointed that they solely focussed on the subway, and not those who are running the stores literally dry of bottled water, what I like most about the NY Times is that they throw these pieces out there, so people like us (who can clearly think for ourselves) can critically question the point of view expressed.
The Times isn't telling us to be afraid of the Subway. It's let the Longs weave the rope from which they hung themselves, metaphorically speaking. In our eyes, they're just more neurotic Manhattanites.
Matt
The Longs were probably always afraid of the subway. They were probably afraid of the drinking water too. And the air pollution. And so on...
While I am disapointed that they solely focussed on the subway, and not those who are running the stores literally dry of bottled water, what I like most about the NY Times is that they throw these pieces out there, so people like us (who can clearly think for ourselves) can critically question the point of view expressed.
Oh no, it wasn't just the subway that scared the Longs. In a part of the article that I didn't copy, as it wasn't really on-topic, the couple said that they had paid $200 each for special gas masks from Israel, presumably in case of a chemical attack. They also had an evacuation plan which entailed riding their bicycles across the George Washington Bridge ... gee, I thought the towel heads were supposedly targeting bridges!
Did the longs pick up a subscription to survivalist rags?
I take offense at the towel head remark. The proper term is "Turban-American".
Thank you, come again! (:)
Actually, both or moronic and useless terms. And the ones with "-American" in their description fly our flag and fight in the US military and get shot at while protecting all of us, so perhaps you should stop using that term, lest I be forced to identify you as a "pinhead-American."
Calm down everyone!
Amen to that.
-AV
It's not paranoia to fear an attack on the subway. After all, there is an enemy organization, and many of them are still alive.
However, there is the issue of relative risks. If you're going to live in NYC at all, life isn't totally safe. The subway is almost certainly statistically safer than a taxi, even if you admit to the risk of a terrorist attack.
And if you decide to live in the boonies for fear of terorists, the chances of a fatal head on collision because of intoxication or inattention by the oncoming driver are probably higher than even a terrorist-threatened subway.
There are numerous other risks involved with riding the subway, for example, becoming the victim of a crime like assault, theft, murder, pushing etc., or chancing into a derailment or other accident, things like that. All of those examples have occured numerous times so I find it very strange that these people would ordinarily take their chances with these possibilies arising and use the subway yet decide that the chance of a terrorist attack of some sort, which the New York subway has fortunately been free of, is unacceptable.
I suppose it's two free seats for other people to sit in on the lines they'd normally ride, if nothing else.
-Robert King
Indeed, all of the things you mention are possible, and statistically MORE LIKELY ON THE STREET THAN IN THE SUBWAY and yet the threat of a terrorist attack would make one avoid the subway first...
like I said:
1) Excuse for snobs
2) Excuse for people with poor social skills
3) Aggravates and encourages phobias which a person might have. Claustrophobics (fear of being in an enclosed space) do not like the subway, and agoraphobics (fear of leaving one's own familiar coccoon)do not either.
Indeed, all of the things you mention are possible, and statistically MORE LIKELY ON THE STREET THAN IN THE SUBWAY and yet the threat of a terrorist attack would make one avoid the subway first...
like I said:
1) Excuse for snobs
2) Excuse for people with poor social skills
3) Aggravates and encourages phobias which a person might have. Claustrophobics (fear of being in an enclosed space) do not like the subway, and agoraphobics (fear of leaving one's own familiar coccoon)do not either.
All true. There's something else, too. One of the main reasons why many people are afraid of flying is the fear of having no control over one's destiny. When you are a passenger aboard an airliner, you are, literally, a passenger, with zero control over what happens to the aircraft. Even though flying is statistically very safe, many people just can't overcome these fears - and this of course started long before September 11th. It's really an individual thing, as many people (me included, needless to say) have no such fear. But some people are very different.
The same thing may be true, albeit to a lesser extent, with the subway. There isn't really all that much that passengers can do with respect to their safety. They have to entrust their safety to the train crew and other workers, and to some people that's not acceptable.
That's the real irony. On a plane or on a subway, I'm in the hands of professionals. On the highway I'm dependent on my own skill as a driver. The airplane or subway crews is probably a lot better at doing what they do than I am at driving.
This is especially so when I'm travelling out-of-town. I feel much safer riding a strange city's public transportation than I do trying to navigate my car through an unfamiliar exstressway (sic).
What's more, when I'm on the highway, I'm also at the mercy of drivers who may be even less skilled than I am. It's not that hard to get a driver's license, after all. Add to that drunk drivers, unsafe cars that escaped state inspection somehow, and tractor trailers driven by people who haven't slept in forty-eight hours, and planes and trains become, at least to my mind, clearly the safer way to travel.
Mark
Excellent point.
I remember the first time I rode the subway to Brooklyn (OOOOOOooooooo........)
You gotta realize that I was a skinny kid from Long Island, and dad would bring me into the city occasional, and let me roam the subways while he was at work.... Brooklyn was a BAD place in those days... well least wise I had heard that it was.
Anyway, I took the (A) train from Broadway-Nassau, and as soon as I realized I was in BROOKLYN, I crossed the patform and to the next train back to Manhattan (and civilization).
Which is to say fear is waht you fear, and by definition is irrational. Before very long, I discovered that Brooklyn was my favorite of boros, and still is!
Elias
Hey Elias, BE QUIET!
The rents are high enough as is. If people find out how cool and safe Brooklyn is, I won't be able to afford to live there anymore:)
Claustrophobics (fear of being in an enclosed space) do not like the subway ...
Depends on how claustrophobic you are, I guess... I don't like being in enclosed spaces as a general rule, particularly with other people (especially strangers) close to me, but I don't have any problem being on the subway as long as I have a window that I can look out (preferably the railfan window, of course, but that's not a requirement).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your expectation of an outcome is the value of the outcome (whether good or bad) time the probability of the outcome.
People don't know how to calculate that when it's a very small probability of a very big outcome. So, they tend to overestimate the risks of planes, subways, etc., as oppsoed to cars or jut crossing the street.
On the opposite side, they don't properly calculate their expectation in the lottery, and will pay $1 to get an outcome worth about $.25 after taxes (i.e., the state keeps half the winnings, and then taxes take half of what you do win if you win big).
Your expectation of an outcome is the value of the outcome (whether good or bad) time the probability of the outcome.
People don't know how to calculate that when it's a very small probability of a very big outcome. So, they tend to overestimate the risks of planes, subways, etc., as oppsoed to cars or jut crossing the street.
New Yorkers can avoid the subway if it's just too frightening. No, it isn't easy to do so, and will put in cramp in most peoples' lifestyles, but it's do-able. And almost anyone can avoid flying. In 99% of the United States, however, one cannot avoid driving or at least riding in cars. That may be why we don't hear much about fear of cars - people simply have to live with it.
I'll admit I'm afraid to drive. The road is a scarier place than any subway station, even at 3am.
I'll admit I'm afraid to drive. The road is a scarier place than any subway station
You are quite right. I drive all of the time, but one moment's inatention at 70 mph, and you are toast! And I am the sleepiest just after eating. Sure Stay for Dinner! and then I have to drive 80 miles to get home!
Two NoDoze and two or three bottles of Dr. Pepper ought to keep you awake until you get home unless you wet your pants first.
Elias
'From a prophets mouth to the Lords ear.' Elias, I get a little disturbed when you'll choose No Doze and Dr. Peppar for a boost. Sometimes you just have to admit you are unfit to drive: your safety and the safety of others depends upon your ability to stop. TA pulls us out for random checks for system safety....only wish they had a dental department like 'We can't have you walking about wit a toothache not thinking about system safety.' CI peter
the state keeps half the winnings, and then taxes take half of what you do win if you win big
That's redundant.
the state keeps half the winnings, and then taxes take half of what you do win if you win big
That's redundant.
He meant that the state takes half of your half after it already took its half.
Thank you. That's exactly what I meant, even though I didn't say it. The state keeps half of the revenue, and then you lose half your winnings to taxes.
Oh, right. The posted Jackpot is only half of all the money paid into the lottery. I thought you meant the state taxes you half of your earnings, then taxes it again, where you could have said the state taxes 75%.
Mr. & Mrs. Long should buy 20 acres of upstate property and move there so they won't be considered target practice by terrorists.
No, but then they'll be targets for some guy who thinks they look like Bambi :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Longs sound like Qtraindash7 and Kevin.
Which Kevin?
forgotten-ny.com kevin
Umm, why?
They're safer in a subway than in a car. Who's to say a terrorist won't plant a bomb under their car?
At least trains are inspected. Most people do not constantly check under their car.
Most people do not constantly check under their car.
Nor do they check their tires, their brakes, their lights....
I wonder if they are smart enough to go....
Elias
So let's see....what are their alternatives to the subway?
They could take a bus....no....too risky....what's been happening on buses in Israel could happen here, too.
They could take a taxi....no....too risky....any car or truck on the road could be bomb laden.
They could walk to wherever they have to go....no....too risky....they'd still be too close to those dangerous cars and trucks.
They could just stay home and not go out at all....no....too risky....after all, there was talk about terrorists renting apartments just to blow them up....could be one in their building.
IMHO, we need to live our lives based on probabilities, not based on remote possibilities. And the probability is that when you travel, whether it's by rail, bus, auto, or plane, you're going to arrive safely.
Statistically, you're quite safe on a bus in Israel. The odds are still overwhelmingly in your favor that nothing will happen to you. The bus bombings and ambushes made Israeli public buses, statistically, less safe than NYC Transit, but the risk of dying was so low anyway that doubling or tripling the risk makes little difference.
If your chances of being hit by an asteroid are 1 in 300 million and somebody triples the risk so that now it is 1 in 100 million, it doesn't make a lot of difference.
Iam not in any way minimizing the pain and suffering inflicted on hundreds of victims, however...for them it was 100% - it did happen.
I'm only rehashing what has already been said, but:
These people were most likely already siderodromophobiacs.
FYI. At 12:01 am this morning, the IND first opened for business.
1932 or 1933???...
;| ) Sparky
September 10, 1932. A Saturday.
Thank you,
So the IND celebrates it seventieth year.
;| ) Sparky
STORY IN NEWSDAY about the last of the token users.
Peace,
ANDEE
I can't complain. Their $1.50 is helping subsidize my $1.36 ride.
If I travel for my city job and I don't want to "put in" for reimburstment at the end of the month via check (that takes 2 months to get anyway) I can get a token.
If I'm traveling and want to be paid upfront, they only give out tokens. We also have Bridge Tokens (3 cases worth) to give to people who use their own car and don't want to wait for monthly reimburstment. MTA Bridges and Tunnels will not refund the tokens until a price hike.
And thank you to all the folks who pay by token on the "private" bus lines, because we get the full $1.50 without any of the TA's deductions for this and that.
Where do I enlist?
Two years ago, I began what became a very long thread on the issue of the MetroCard vs. the token. Click here to see that thread.
In case you don't want to look at the thread, here is the quick summary: I took the pro-token, anti-MetroCard position, basically saying that the so-called "advantages" of the card could readily have been provided with the token. For instance: we could easily have had discounts for the purchase of multiple tokens, and we could have seen the end of "two-fare zones" by using paper transfers.
I also touched on a few other things, such as: lamenting the sad loss of the durable token, a great NYC cultural artifact and OUR OWN NEW YORK CITY CURRENCY; the reduction/non-creation of jobs (for example, the people who would be required to give out and take the paper transfers); as well as the dangerous surveillance implications of this type of tracking technology (which is the REAL threat to our safety -- now more than ever, given the ugly political climate).
Another key point was the ripoff of the public that is represented by the payment of huge sums of money to the company that obtained the contract (in a corrupt -- albeit legally protected -- way) to install and maintain MetroCard technology. For more on this, see this Village Voice story by Andrew Friedman.
The thread was more than 100 posts long, and there was some interesting debate there. It's worth a look if you're interested. But, even if you don't check it out, I would urge everyone to read that Voice story.
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- Of course, the thread also featured some completely inappropriate ad hominem attacks, as well as some spuriously-reasoned responses. But, hey, this is the internet. My favorite example of the latter was one guy's contention that token clerks could rip open discounted ten-packs and sell the tokens individually. Suuure. This, despite the fact that sales of ten-packs would have to be recorded separately from individual sales if quantity discounts were offered. So, in order to make the $1.50 in booty, these fantasy clerks would have to put $13.50 of their own money into the drawer, then sell the tokens individually, pocketing each $1.50 until they reach $15. Or else they would have to record the sale of a ten-pack, then keep the tokens in a separate pile, and take $1.50 from the drawer after all ten were sold. Eesh. Either way, it requires too much work for too little return. This is a great example of a "problem" which solves itself.
That "one guy" was me.
How would it require that much effort? The clerk would have access to the ten packs before putting money into the drawer and would be able to sell the ten pack tokens while recording them as ten pack sales. How would that be difficult? It would also be untrackable.
In addition to that disadvantage that I mentioned, we had a discussion on why free transfers and unlimited rides wouldn't work with the token. You yourself pointed that out just now by mentioning the reduction and non creation of jobs the Metrocard created. Sorry bub, but the MTA is not the Department of Social Services and is thus not responsible for creating jobs where they are unneccessary. Labor is the most expensive component of any industry (except for some incredibly advanced technologies, which doesn't apply to transit), and its elimination allows for lower fares and better service for the customer. If you feel that your money should go into someone else's pockets, then by all means, donate to charity. But don't try to steal from others to do that.
Do you think that new subway lines should be built using TBMs or thousands of workers digging with spoons? What about the thousands of people who are out of a job thanks to the small team of TBM operators?
Reduction of labor has been the guiding force behind civilization for 10,000 years.
The token serves a purpose and should be retained even though Metrocards are effective for most transit users.
The token serves a purpose and should be retained even though Metrocards are effective for most transit users. ....
What purpose??????
Personally, the machines are the only way to go. I just don't understand why people queue to use an agent when there are machines feet away totally not being used?????
Change issues, they dispense gold coins, sometimes they can cheat you out of cards and/or change, and no one wants to go down to Jay Street and wait in a long line just to get their money back (even though the TA should also pay them the 3.00 it takes them to get there and back)
It is just too bad people don't want to join the 21st century. The machines sometimes give wrong change; just as often if not more often station agents give the wrong change (albeit usually accidentally). I don't understand what it means they give you gold coins....you must mean the dollar coin. Quite frankly, the fact that we still have a $1 bank note in this country is a tribute to the stupidity of people who live in the past. It is without question a fact the government could save millions of dollars by refraining from printing $1 bank note and making the smallest paper money the $5 bank note and making the one dollar coin the only $1 currency in circulation. Whether people like it or not, $1 bank notes no longer make any sense.
In the UK, they do not have a £1 bank note, they have a £1 coin, anice thick coin. They also have a £2 coin; their smallest paper money is £5. Same thing is true in Canada, they have $1 coin the looney and $2 coin the twoney....the smallest bank note is $5. In Europe, there is no €1 bank note, they have coins for €1 and €2.
In this era of rising costs, we should be doing whatever we can to decrease costs. If that means using Metrocard vending machines and re-assigning station agents to other duties, then that is what we should do. If that means eliminating the $1 bank note, that is what we should do.
I also wonder how many stupid people insist on still using the dumb tokens when they are making more than 2 trips a day when they could get the $4 all day pass in the machine. Why doesn't the MTA advertise the advantages of this pass, available in every metrocard vending machines?
Folks, I hate to inform you. We are now living in the 21st century. Like it or no, technology is here to stay.
>>> I also wonder how many stupid people insist on still using the dumb tokens when they are making more than 2 trips a day when they could get the $4 all day pass in the machine <<<
It shows a certain amount of immaturity to call anyone who does not wish to do things exactly like you do stupid.
>>> We are now living in the 21st century. Like it or no, technology is here to stay <<<
And token technology can coexist with Metrocards. When only so few customers want to use tokens that it becomes uneconomical to sell them and collect them, they will be phased out.
Tom
Tom:
You would have to admit that people who insist on using 4 token for trips during a day costing $6 are kind of stupid if they are just so afraid of the machine that they won't buy a fun pass. To me, that is being stupid but if anybody is offended, I do apologize.
I don't think you should apologize. Some people deserve to be called stupid. People who use tokens to make 4 pre-planned trips in a calendar day are stupid, plain and simple.
>>> You would have to admit that people who insist on using 4 token for trips during a day costing $6 are kind of stupid if they are just so afraid of the machine that they won't buy a fun pass <<
You make the assumption that using tokens is based on fear of machines, where often it might be that one does not expect to take three trips when taking the first one. This has happened to me in several instances where there is all day pricing, and the reverse has also happened when I bought an all day pass, but did not make enough trips to to exceed the individual fares.
Tom
Without meaning to belabor the point...there are times people have to be brought into the 21st century whether they like it or not. The token is an example of mid 20th century technology...it no longer makes sense. However, there are always entrenched folks who block progress. But sometimes, an enlightened progressive push and within a week or 2, the people realize they were worried for nothing.
There are countless examples....why isn't the US on the metric system yet? The whole rest of the world got rid of a dumb system based on 12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, I don't know how many yards to a mile. I do know 100 centimeters to a meter, 1000 meters to a kilometer...Water freezes at 0 degrees celsius and boils at 100 degrees celsius, makes a whole lot more sense than our stupid farenheit system which nobody else in the world uses. It would take about 2 days for the public to get used to the fact that if it is 20 degrees, it is a nice day and they certainly don't want the temperature to be 25 degrees or higher. But we have these old fuddy duddies in Congress who block progress because they are very poorly educated.
Same thing goes as I pointed out with the $1 bank note. It no longer makes sense, costs the government millions of dollars as bank notes wear out in 18 months while coins last years. Our country still has a $1 bank note and most other countries have done away with banknotes that small.
Although it is not recent I'll give you an example. About 31 years ago, Britain finally gave up its archaic monetary system. For eons kids had to learn that 12 pence make up a shilling and 20 shillings make a pound.....in 1971 the government declared that henceforth 100 pence would make up a pound...traditionalists screamed bloody murder. Guess what, within a week, people could not understand why it took so long. Same thing happened when they introduced the Euro currency in Western Europe this past January.
If we did away with token, some people would scream for a little while. But when they realized the advantages of using metrocards, they would realize how short sighted they have been. Same goes with using the machines rather than station agents. As I said earlier, I still can't understand why people would queue up in front of a station agent when no more than 10 feet away there are 3 unused metrocard bending machines...Just don't understand it...but I guess it is to each his own....
Oops a big typo in my post. You don't want the temperature to be more than 35 degress (Celsius) wich would be 95 degrees farenheit....
Another one, while you're at it, is "bending machines"!
There are 5.5 yards in a rod, 4 rods in a chain, 10 chains in a furlong and 8 furlongs in a statute mile.
And no offense intended, but who the hell cares?
The booze industry went metric, and nobody screamed.
100 kph is 66 MPH. So what?
JEFFJAGUAR was right. Kill the dammed token. (Don't stop honoring them, just stop selling them.) Make sure the media knows you're going to do it, and do it. The screaming should stop within 3 weeks.
He asked how many yards to a mile, I told him.
I guess by knowing all of those weird measurements he can hate the English measurement system even more. If so, my job here is done.
METRIC RULES
IMPERIAL DROOLS
JEFFJAGUAR was right. Kill the dammed token. (Don't stop honoring them, just stop selling them.) Make sure the media knows you're going to do it, and do it. The screaming should stop within 3 weeks.
Three weeks? More like three years. Remember that New York isn't Baltimore. For reasons I cannot quite understand, New Yorkers tend to be rather slow in grasping new technologies. As recently as 2000, Internet usage in New York lagged the national average, and for that matter the big-city average, and for all I know it still lags today.
New Yorkers tend to be technologically backwards even when it comes to something as prosaic as television. One of the oft-commented upon consequences of September 11th was the destruction of the TV transmission facilities atop 1 WTC. It was widely reported that the weaker TV signals necessitated by the use of emergency backups were a major problem because a significant percentage of New Yorkers, in this age of cable and satellite TV, still get their TV over the air. I don't remember the specific numbers, but this percentage was well over the national and urban averages.
As a result, I would anticipate that an announcement phasing out tokens - as much as I support the idea - would lead to plenty of bellowing and gnashing of teeth. People would get used to the idea, eventually, but the transition would't be pretty.
"For reasons I cannot quite understand, New Yorkers tend to be rather slow in grasping new technologies."
It's more that New Yorkers like to complain a lot. If you live in some small town in middle America and you are dissatisfied with your life, you move to New York. If you are satisfied, you stay where you are.
I disagree. New Yorkers like to whine a lot.
A complaint is a criticism with an eye to resolving a problem.
A whine is just a whine.
John
Sometimes when you are forced to do things, you wince but you do them. Think of all the millions of Europeans who kept saying there is no way they could ever give up their old currencies and embrance the Euro. There was supposed to be a six month period when the two currencies traded side by side. Within 2 weeks, it was done and the deadlines were moved up to 6 weeks.
BTW this phobia about machines is not limited to NY. In the London Underground, they are putting machines in to sell tickets and you still see queues a mile long to get a ticket from a clerk while the machines are pretty empty and the same is true in Paris......
"the same is true in Paris......"
I arrived in Paris at Gare Du Nord a few years ago by train from London. I tried to use the machines but they were all broken. No choice but to wait half an hour.
Europeans were introduced to prices in euros over a long period. When I was in Amsterdam and Paris a year ago, everything was priced in euros as well as the local currency with the euro price much larger. (It was great for me since the euro was about 97 cents.) People had a chance to get used to what value the euro had. Still, some people still convert back into their old currency to determine values, according to an article I read recently. Still, the switch in circulating currency was impressive.
As for machines, I think that a part of the problem is that the machines are pretty complicated, more so than they need to be. See MetroCard Mess and Turnstile Trouble for some good analyses of the problems in our MetroCard system that could be fixed to ease use.
While it may seem a long introductory period, the reality is most Europeans paid no attention to the Euro until 01 January 2002 when Euro bank notes and coins began to circulate.
I was just in Paris and Amsterdam and there is not a single bit of evidence that guilders and Francs ever existed except for the fact that on many credit card invoices, the old amounts are still listed for information purposes only.
A better example is what happened in Great Britain 30 years ago when the old system of pounds-shillings-pence was replaced. It will cause great confusion many yelled, people don't want it. Guess what...in a week people couldn't understand why it took so long to do this. Same would be true if once and for all our politicians got off their tails and mandated the metric system (despite what somebody else has said, that means putting all signs in kilometers and weights and measures in grams) and temperatures in Celsius. Our friends in Canada did it and within a week it was done. Even the English for whom the system was developed have basically given up the old system (except for distances whkch are still measured in yards and miles but the EU might have something to say about that). It is this refusal to accept things the way the rest of the world does it that accounts for a little bit (albeit very little) of the anti Americanism present in other parts of the world. We live in our own cocoon and refuse to acknowledge that in some instances, other ways are better!
a significant percentage of New Yorkers, in this age of cable and satellite TV, still get their TV over the air.
This has nothing to do with technology, cable TV, unlike OTA signals costs money, money that I for one, would not be willing to spend if I lived in a big city (which I do) and all I wanted was the broadcast affiliates I've always had (which is not what I want). Maybe it's because New Yorkers have:
Better things to do than watch TV
Can't afford cable or satellite
A metrocard is cheaper than tokens, people who still use tokens for regular trips are complete and utter numbskulls.
Another problem is that cable TV and cable companies suck. I have cable for internet access ONLY and use DirecTV for TV, people in apartments don't always have the option of satellite. If all I had to choose was cable or OTA, I'd choose OTA, but I'd still have a cable modem.
>>> why isn't the US on the metric system yet? <<<
Officially the U.S. has been on the metric system since the 1960s. There are some areas where road signs have distances in both miles and kilometers, and U.S. manufactured automobiles have speedometers calibrated in both mph. and kph. But it is a still a free country, so the government will not order private citizens to deal only in metric units. Some things cannot be changed by government fiat. Remember what a great success calling Sixth Avenue "Avenue of the Americas" was.
>>> But we have these old fuddy duddies in Congress who block progress because they are very poorly educated. <<<
As far as the introduction of $1.00 coins goes, the government has introduced them twice, to great apathy or outright rejection by the public. Sure they would be a success if the government were to stop producing $1.00 bills, but politicians are afraid of being too far ahead of their constituents on the issue. That's not poor education, but good political awareness.
>>> If we did away with token, some people would scream for a little while. <<<
Again, what is the benefit of doing away with the token at this time? Why not wait until it naturally falls out of favor with transit riders? Keep in mind, the Metrocard is comfortable to those who deal with credit cards and checking accounts in their daily lives. There are still many who use the NYC subways that consider money only something they can hold in their hands and count. Why shouldn't the TA continue to serve them with tokens?
>>> I still can't understand why people would queue up in front of a station agent when no more than 10 feet away there are 3 unused Metrocard bending machines...Just don't understand it. <<<
To understand the phenomenon you refer to, you need a greater knowledge of the differences of culture, education, and socialization of many different people. You can not expect everyone to think exactly like you do.
Tom
But it is a still a free country, so the government will not order private citizens to deal only in metric units. Some things cannot be changed by government fiat.
Some things can. This is one of them:
US Constitution: Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 5:
"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"
What if you wanted to invent your own measurement system? If everybody had their own measurement system, nothing could ever practically be measured. The measurement system must be standardized by the government, regardless of what individual people want. If I want to measure things in fufuses, that's my right, but not when I want to engage in commerce or trade.
I guess since it's also a free country, I shouldn't pay any taxes. The money that I keep cannot be changed by government fiat.
but politicians are afraid of being too far ahead of their constituents on the issue. That's not poor education, but good political awareness.
Politicians are idiots. Most of them would end up keeping their jobs if the one dollar bill would be eliminated, since most people wouldn't remember when it comes time to go to the voting booth.
Why shouldn't the TA continue to serve them with tokens?
It costs the TA money in order to continue distributing and collecting tokens. Money that is better spent elsewhere to benefit smarter passengers. If token users don't want to change, charge them more money.
To understand the phenomenon you refer to, you need a greater knowledge of the differences of culture, education, and socialization of many different people. You can not expect everyone to think exactly like you do.
I don't have problems with those people, in fact, I LIKE THEM. The more of them there are, the shorter the lines for the MVMs.
>>> "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;" <<<
As I stated earlier, the U.S. has been on the metic system since either the late ‘50s or early ‘60s. The official standard of measurement for length is the meter, and the official measurement of volume is the liter and the official measurement of weight is the kilogram. At one time the Bureau of Weights and Measures maintained a standard yard, pound and quart, that all other devices were measured against. They no longer do so. The standards are kept in the metric system and pounds, yards and quarts are defined as a ratio to the metric standard.
>>> It costs the TA money in order to continue distributing and collecting tokens. <<<
How much does it cost for distributing and collecting tokens in comparison to Metrocards? I am all for eliminating tokens when they are no longer cost effective, but not before then. What is the "breakage" with tokens compared to Metrocards? What is the comparative float with the two fare media? Until you have the answers to those questions and the tokens are markedly less cost effective than Metrocards it is premature to eliminate tokens.
I have no doubt that tokens will be eliminated at the same time change booths are eliminated, but I see no pressing need to eliminate tokens before then.
Tom
The subway token is part of NYC culture, part of its identity.
This does not mean it must be retained in use. But compare the situation in NYC to Washington. Metrorail never had tokens. It always had farecards. (Did Metrobus accept tokens in the 1950's and 1960's?) So there's no attachment to this icon.
>>> The subway token is part of NYC culture, part of its identity. <<<
Not to me. The nickel and dime were what I identified with the subway. Dropping a coin in a turnstile is what those of us born after the ticket days consider part of the identity of the subway.
Tom
Point well taken. You're in the minority here, though. To most people 60 and younger, the token is it. Except maybe the new generation of teens now thinks MetroCards are cool and tokens are for grownups who are old and stodgy and don't know anything anyway...
I would hazard that the cost ratio of tokens/Metrocards is significant:
–Most Metrocard users buy several rides at once (to take advantage of the discount). This equals float, which I’m sure partially offsets the 10% discount. Even users who buy at token booths rather than at the MVMs represent less overhead because of buying multiple rides at once. (Just as an aside to the station agents on the board: what is the average number of tokens bought per customer? My guess is 1-2)
–Metrocards are only read at stations, not recycled. The counting is automatic. The turnstiles don’t need to be emptied. There is no security required for metrocards. Until they have been encoded/validated they’re worth nothing!
–Metrocards can be refilled/reused (I don’t know whether you can revalidate the various forms of unlimited ride cards). I use my card until it starts to give high numbers of read retries or expires (>1 year) before I get a replacement.
–There is maintenance required for metrocards, daily cleaning of the readers. However, this also doesn’t require a great deal of security.
John
As I said earlier, I still can't understand why people would queue up in front of a station agent when no more than 10 feet away there are 3 unused metrocard bending machines...Just don't understand it...but I guess it is to each his own....
I guess for the same reason some people still queue up in a teller line at the bank when there are 5 unused ATM's nearby.... Heck my dad REFUSED to even open a checking account - he would always go to the bank and purchase money orders. When the bank started charging higher fees for the money orders he demanded to see the manager and threatened to withdraw all of his savings if HE had to pay these fees - guess what - the manager gave him a letter to show the tellers - the letter gave my dad FREE money orders for the rest of his life!!
I remember what happened several years ago. I was waiting at a bank to see a bank officer for some silly reason (I thnk a double endorsed check). I was listening to the officer explain to some elderly person that she had her choice of two different kinds of savings account....a pass book account paying 4.5% and a statement savings with an ATM card payng 5%. She just insisted she had to have the bank book so she could go to the bank the first day of every quarter to see the interest posted.
My elderly parents, god bless them, still thinks it costs an arm and a leg to call me long distance from Florida and when I try to explain to them things like if you use 1016868 to prefix the call, you pay as little as 5 cents a minute, they just won't believe me no matter how you try to explain to them.
I guess it is a generation thing for people to resist the fact that this is now the 21st century and heaven forbid they should use a machine where they can pay with an ATM card and/or a credit card.
No offense meant to anybody.
The fare is almost certainly going up in a few months.
What do we do about tokens?
Do we let people hoard tokens in advance and get in for the old fare? Do we spend a fortune minting new tokens and adjusting all the turnstiles and fareboxes? Or do we simply stop selling tokens and allow existing tokens to be turned in for MetroCards (or cash) of equivalent value?
In the past, only the first two options existed. They are expensive options. We have a new option now.
I think that when the fare goes up, the tokens are history. There is no need for them anymore. Even if someone only wants to but "one" fare, they can get a metrocard for it. The tokens are outdated. It's a NYC tradition that I feel is about to come to an end.
Technically there IS a $2 dollar bank note, but you will have to ask someone to trade since it is valuable (rare collectible money), or go to the bank and trade.
the machine fans are missing one point: They only givce $6 in change. If you have a twenty and want a cartd for $13 ytou wont get the card. TYher machine will ask if you want a twenty doillar card, they wont read and wind up screaming at the s/a that the machine at their change. We check the card and determine it is a $20 card. We ask them what they wanted and tell them of the $6 in change and they start screaming for a refund which we cannot give.All we can do is give them a BRE and hope they leave quietly. (if not- we call for police and hoipe we dont get a custoemr complaint. (The cimplaint will be thrown out but we still have to deal with talkingn to the supervisor and hoping they understand.
If the customer understands the $6 change they can ask us for change and we'll give them change if we have the change.
the machine fans are missing one point: They only givce $6 in change. If you have a twenty and want a cartd for $13 ytou wont get the card. TYher machine will ask if you want a twenty doillar card, they wont read and wind up screaming at the s/a that the machine at their change. We check the card and determine it is a $20 card. We ask them what they wanted and tell them of the $6 in change and they start screaming for a refund which we cannot give.All we can do is give them a BRE and hope they leave quietly. (if not- we call for police and hoipe we dont get a custoemr complaint. (The cimplaint will be thrown out but we still have to deal with talkingn to the supervisor and hoping they understand.
If the customer understands the $6 change they can ask us for change and we'll give them change if we have the change.
I don't quite see this as meaning that MVM's are somehow bad. They make the $6 change limit quite clear. If someone is too clueless to catch on, well, life's tough, they can wait a while for their refunds. I do agree that the change limit can be a bit of a problem because ATM's only give out twenties (there's something about that, although not involving MVM's, in this week's New York Press.) But a little advance planning can get one around that issue. In any event, more and more people are using debit cards for smaller transactions these days in place of cash, so the problem is gradually going away by itself.
Why would anyone use an ATM to take out cash and then try to use the cash in an MVM? Just use the ATM card itself at the MVM (or MEM).
The customer who uses a credit or ATM card may not be able to get their metrocard. The same as cash paying customers. Someone jams the card slot.
Right! and then they come to the booth and demand we give them a MetroCard because they did not read the message on the MVM that there is no change, no bills, etc.
Of course, we can not give refunds for MVM customers. They have to call
1-800-Metrocard outside NY or 1-212-metrocard in NY .
Yes- we do call up right away if the machines break. When there is a problem with the machine we hear a beep in the booth and amessage is shown on our computer screen in the booth. Once we call, we have to wait for a maintainer.
Why would anyone use an ATM to take out cash and then try to use the cash in an MVM? Just use the ATM card itself at the MVM (or MEM).
I was thinking about the situation where you've already gotten cash from an ATM for other purposes, and then decide to get a MetroCard. You might run into the change-limit issue at the MVM if you haven't broken any of the twenties from the ATM. As I noted, however, a little advance planning can get around that issue.
If you've gotten cash from an ATM, you've most likely broken those twenties already.
You also forgot about outside vendors who sell Metrocard, no one really HAS to use an MVM.
My grandma still uses tokens most of the time.
At 10:12 hours at Queensboro Plaza an N train South Operating Motor 4453 was seen by yours truly (I was bored at a meeting and looking out the window that happened to be behind the talkers head), the north motor was 4484.
It was a full set of R40M, I take it?
Haven't seen that since the Willy B flip in '99.
thanks
wayne
Wayne, I saw one set on the N while waiting for a circle Q at 57/7. Like its looks too!
This is not new. Its been running for about a month now.
Yes, full set.
I know its not new, just got the car numbers for Wayne, he has this thing about car numbers you know.
Been keepin' them for 32 years, going back to 1969.
wayne
There are some interesting entries.
There's that all-R-1 B train which wailed along 4th Ave., yet was coming apart at the seams.
And that all-R-4 D train from 32 years ago yesterday with a bunch of dead motors which made the Brighton ride and the jaunt over the bridge seem like a death march.
That R-10 F train in 1981 which set a speed record along Hillside Ave.
Alas, there is no record of that sweltering, crush loaded F train on the day I got my license, other than lead motor 1277.
Hey Wayne, do you have a record of that A-440 F train headed by 1233?
A story I love to tell ... one day I arrived late for a meeting at nycDOT with the excuse that I was delayed waiting for a Slant 40 ... no one at the meeting knew what I was talking about.
LOL Those shovelnoses will do it to you every time, eh?
Yes, those slant R-40's will be sorely missed. Somehow the R-40M's are just NOT the same....
A is Adam, Alex, Alice, Amanda
B is Billy, Bob, Betty
C is Christ, Chrystal
D is David, Diane
E is Emily, Eve, Edward, Ethan
F is Fred, Florence
G is Greg, Grace
H is Heather, Henry, Helen, Hilary
J is Joyce, Janet, Jane, John, Jack, Jim
K is Kyle, Keven, Kristen, Karen
L is Linda, Lisa, Lilly, Lenny, Larry, Luke
M is Michael, Matthew, Mindy, Melissa, Mary
N is Nancy, Nathan, Nick
Q Can't think of anyone's names with Q intial
R is Richard, Rick, Ron, Rita, Rachael
S is Stephanie, Stan, Steven, Sonia,
V is Veronica, Vicky, Vincent, Valerie
W is William, Wendy, Walter, Winston
Z is Zachery, Zaney
Q - Quincy, Quinn, Queenie
C is also more commonly known as "Charlie".
wayne
I don't know about those Q names that you've given. They do quite sounded weird.
They're the only ones I could think of! :o)
wayne
Is Quincy a female or Male?
Male. Remember Jack Klugman as the crime-fighting medical examiner in the 70s TV show Quincy.
You could also call the Q-train "Quentin."
Mark
Teddy Roosevelt had a son named Quentin, IIRC.
Quentis is another name that comes to mind.
You are correct! TR's youngest and favorite son was named Quentin. Sadly, Quentin was killed in World War I.
I guess it'd be appropriate to name the Q train after the son of a New York City police chief, would it not?
Mark
Oh yeah! I remember! Its was a long time. I watch when I was only 4 in 1983.
C is also Connie, Craig, Charity, Cindy
W is also u Wayne, Wilma
D is Donna, Dan, Debby
No one mentioned Ralph for R.:)
There was an orchestra conductor I worked with some 20 years ago who used the following names for rehearsal letters:
A - Alice
B - Boston
C - Charlie
D - David
E - Elsie
F - Frederick
G - George
H - Henry
K - Karl
L - Louisa
M - Molly
N - Napoleon
O - Oscar
P - Peter
Q - Quincy, question
T - Thomas
V - Victor
Z - Zachariah
These letters are inserted by publishers into scores and individual parts to provide reference points when the conductor stops during rehearsals.
Transit uses these letters:(police in parenthesis)
A............ Apple (Adam)
B............ Bravo (Boy)
C............ Charlie
D............ Delta (David)
E............ Echo (Eddie)
F............ Fox )Fox Trot)
G............ no letter nickname but I have heard George several times.
J............ no letter nickname but I have heard John several times. Police use John.
L............ Larry (slowly catching on, Most times no nickname. Police use Lincoln)
M............ Mary
N............ Nancy or November (Nora)
Q............ Quincy (Queen)
R............ Romeo (Robert)
V............ Victor
W............ Whiskey
Stations use Transit names except for R which we call Robert.We use Peter for P (as do the police.)
No nickname for S trains but in stations we use Sam if we talk about a stairway with the code S1, etc. Police use Sam for S.
The rule book says to use th military phonectic alaphabet (Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta, Q would be Qubec) but I hardly ever hear it on the radio.
The cops use thier alpahbet Adam Eddy and such (military would be Echo).
I heard a motorman use 'Quincy' on a Q train last year.
Jim D.
How long have they used the military's phonetic alphabet? - I know, this seems an odd question, but at some stage the US military switched from the Able Baker alphabet to the international standard one.
(Interestingly, the Italians use a completely different one, using Italian cities: A is for Ancona, B is for Bari, C is for Como, D is for Domodossola (sp?) etc...)
Quincy!
From the early 80's:
Well...
I've heard the W referred to as "Whiskey" a while back.
We came up with a few references of our own last fall.
You people need to reiternate youselves. I mean, railfanning is one thing but calling your subway routes names is going off the deep end!!
Its not we're calling a bad name. Calm down and have fun. Kabeesh!
Q for Quincey
Quincey. Nice named!
The modified R40's have been on the N (and Q) for over a month now.
Does that have the Q diamond in its roll sign yet?
I was under the impression all R40/42 cars had the diamond Q as well as the W on it's signs.
At the start, they were STICKERS so light didn't sign though. As roll signs were removed from the R68's/R68A's they were placed in the 40's
This just in - from the MTH Newsroom.
Item #1:
The Long anticipated R-36 Worlds Fair Set is "on the dock". It was not made clear if that meant the dock in the US or the dock in China.
Item #2:
MTH will next issue a Railking version of the R-12 in the original color scheme. This will appear in the next MTH catalog. Get your deposits in early. For those who are not sure, the R-12 was the IRT version of the R-10.
Item #3:
MTH is also planning to release a Centennial Commemorative subway set. No idea what equipment will be included. Hopefully it'll be released within a year of Oct, 2004.
The word from MTH dealers - get your checkbooks ready - preorder and be prepared to PAY.
[Item #1:
The Long anticipated R-36 Worlds Fair Set is "on the dock". It was not made clear if that meant the dock in the US or the dock in China.]
Last night Charlie at Nassau Hobbies said he would still take orders for the R-36 at the pre-order price. So, it not too late to get yours before the price goes up.
Also, the add ons of theses haven't been officially announced, so he wouldn't take an order for them. (got my R-17 & R-21 add ons)
According to "Charlie Nassau" on the O-Gauge RR website, MTH will be offerimg two versions of the R-12: One in the orignal livery, and the other in what he calls "off-white"--the R-12's last paint scheme?
MTH will supposedly offer modular elevated structure system, too.
And we will all be able to beam ourselves to our favorite musuems and transit cites before this ever comes to pass.
The Second Avenue Subway will be in full operation before MTH ever releases something on time, every time.
HEY! If they had to point at the board, it'd take even LONGER. :)
Oh yeah..the other thing that supposedly MTH will offer: a yellow "rider car" add-on...for those of us who didn't want to buy the whole work train set. (I already built my own for much less money)
You can already buy Elevated structure from other sources.
The following was cut and pasted from a post "on The Other Side of the Tracks" by our old comrade, hey-paul
"i'm feverishly working on a similar idea that i can send out in another heypaul viral attack on the address books of subtalkers..."
Nice to know that paul has taken time out from his search for wooden balls to give us a thought or two. Just don't open any strange e-mails.
Maybe this time he'll attach a picture of the reverser key instead of his...
[snick]
Thanks for the warning, Steve. I had read heypaul's post this morning and thoughtlessly assumed it was just harmless silliness. I'll be sure to run a virus check before I open his next email.
It's a joke.
One of the recent viruses surfed the user list for TOSOTT and garnered everyone's email, then sent itself out to everyone masquerading as heypaul.
Just so ya know what that's in reference to - someone HERE on subtalk managed to get themselves a dose of the Klez Virus. Apparently this person (I know who it was since I got several copies of Klez also but ain't squealing since it wasn't this person's FAULT - they didn't even KNOW they were infected) had their Outbreak Express sending out copies to LOTS of people with the "from:" line being "HeyPaul" and sending an infected attachment which consisted of a page from SubTalk bearing MY handle on the page ...
Some folks lacking the ability to determine the cause blamed HeyPaul for this virus that someone ELSE'S machine was sending and I stepped in and explained what was actually going on. So since some ne'er-do-well script kiddie's virus caused HeyPaul adverse publicity, HeyPaul figured he could have a little fun over the episode. Bottom line, HeyPaul was just having some fun with it. No reason to raise the danger alarm to hot pink, no need to break out the rubber bedsheets. Unless you're INTO that thing of course. :)
Thanks for clarifying the post, Kevin. I hadn't heard of the virus 'attack' before this. That being said, only a fool will yell fire in a crowded theater.
Yeah, the particulars went on in another thread over at Harry's place if you're interested in following the historicals on it. I actually found HeyPaul's new thread amusing but then most folks can vouch that I'm not a well person. Must have been that knot in de haid I got during that Arnine layup years ago. :)
"actually found HeyPaul's new thread amusing but then most folks can vouch that I'm not a well person."
Lest we not give heypaul any more bandwith, just let me say that despite several periods of detante in our on-line association, I've always maintained that I had no appreciation of heypaul's alleged sence of humor. Couple that with his association with his alter-ego, avid reader, and I'm heypauled out.
Still making threats over the internet, in jest or not, is a really brainless act these days.
It has also been said that a certain employee of the TA has no since of humor.
I, at least, can say that I've met both on a one to one basis.
Thurston, 2 bits of insight which might be in order.
First,you have not yet 'met' me. You bumped into me for a brief moment while I was working. You know as little about me after that 1 minute meeting as you did before other than a face to go with the name. I'm quite sure your persona is different on the job.
Second, to intimate that I have no sense of humor is based on what? I don't find hey-paul funny. Similarly, I don't find Myron Cohen, Chevy Chase or Eddie Murphy funny either. That's a far different thing from saying that I have no sense of humor. That would be the equivalent of people saying that you have no appreciation of music because you don't like a particular heavy metal group.
The fact that you like a particular individual should not mean that I need to appreciate every aspect of that person's life in order to curry favor with you. I have no such feelings about you for your associations with that person. If, however, that's how you feel, more the pity.
Hay, who brought up this person in the first place ?
And as for the rest of your remarks, I rest my case.
As for Haypaul, I've found most times he is funny. Sometimes a friend needs to explain it before I get it.
Please count to 10 & don't reply to this as I don't want to be responsible for one of THOSE kind of threads.
"Sometimes a friend needs to explain it before I get it."
I rest my case .........
"And as for the rest of your remarks, I rest my case."
What case? Then again ...... who cares?
>>>...Hay, who brought up this person in the first place ? <<<
Steve did....and if said person bothers him sooo much he should ignore him.
Peace,
ANDEE
That was the point as I knew that.
>>>...Hay, who brought up this person in the first place ? <<<
Steve did....and if said person bothers him sooo much he should ignore him.
Peace,
ANDEE
"actually found HeyPaul's new thread amusing but then most folks can vouch that I'm not a well person."
Lest we not give heypaul any more bandwith, just let me say that despite several periods of detante in our on-line association, I've always maintained that I had no appreciation of heypaul's alleged sence of humor. Couple that with his association with his alter-ego, avid reader, and I'm heypauled out.
Still, making threats over the internet, in jest or not, is a really brainless act these days.
Yah I got it too, won't say from who but our work filter bounced the attachment and cleaned the email and then screamed at me about it.
Rode the F and Q routes yesterday afternoon . Here are some observations
F Line
Southbound trains do not go in the yard to turn. They continue past the yard cutoff until train clears the switch and a relay motorman brings the train northbound into Avenue X changing tracks on the yard switch. Good job by TA on trfain movements. Shuttle Bus ias a disater. See my post on bus talk
Q Line
TOTAL DISASTER!!!!
No excuse here. Must have a Q Shuttle between Brighton Beach and West 8th Street and can be implemented utilizing one track OPTO
The B-68 bus just is not going to do it.
Spoke to someone in Department of subway yesterday and he told me that the plan looked good on paper but no one ever tried it out before
If the TA keeps this up there is going to be a riot at Brighton Beach
They use tracks 3 and 4 for the local service and track 2 for the express. 1 TRACK IS USED FOR FILL IN WHEN NECESSARY
NO EXCUSE Plan has to be reworked. Shuttle Train is necessary and the TA has to do it
Thank You
Doesn't a shuttle train defeat the purpose of not having passengers platform at Stillwell? I thought the whole point is that the TA will be replacing tracks and signals and rebuilding the terminal without having to worry about construction workers dodging trains and passengers tresassing onto construction areas and getting hurt.
Ron,
The Q Shuttle train will operate between West 8th Street and Brighton Beach only.
This is no way near the construction area
Thank You
Thank you. That clears it up.
The TA has a capital plan for reconstruction of the West 8th Street elevated station. This would interfere will the single tracked shuttle you propose.
It is not going to take 18 months to rebuild west 8th Street.
I think providing service is more important than closing a station to rehab it.
99% of all stations remain open during rehabs
Thank You
Maybe, maybe not, but for however long it does take them to reconstruct the station, shuttles are out.
When the station is finished, then a shuttle might be feasable.
No it wouldn't. One platform can be worked on while another is used for this shuttle. The platforms (and subsequent track the shuttle uses) can be changed as necessary.
I predicted this. In 1987, when the diamond crossover was being replaced just north of Coney Island, they implemented a 1 track shuttle from W8th to BB with no problems. Sure, this GO lasted only one week, but I don't see why, from an operational standpoint, it cannot be done now.
I think the main reason they decided not to do a shuttle was the potential whining from customers who use Neptune Ave. "Where's OUR shuttle!?", etc.
No. You need to stay there for a while. Everything goes down the drain every few minutes. Right now, Locals are entering Track 1, relaying 5 and departing 3. Expresses are only using 4. They need to seperate locals and expresses onto seperate platforms, use one track to have trains enter, 5 and 6 to relay and the other track to depart. There's no other way. There can't be a shuttle because put ins are everywhere.
Supervision told me that as of next week when access to Coney Island Yard is closed that will change
Thank You
Running a shuttle from BB to w8th is easy:
1. Have all incoming Q trains (express & local) arrive at the southbound express track (sorry, i don't know the official track numbers).
2. Q locals run empty through Ocean Parkway, switching from the southbound express to the southbound local track before running through to a point south of the station, where they reverse. They then run north thru Ocean Parkway on the Manhattan bound local track all the way to BB, where they go into service.
3. Q expresses run empty into Ocean Parkway, turning around on the southbound express track. The trains switch to the northbound express track as they leave, arriving at BB on the northbound express track, where they go into service.
4. The "shuttle" runs on the Coney Island bound local track between BB and W8th.
Can anyone with expertise explain why this cannot be done?
The reason is because Q trains have no other way of getting to CI yard. They need one track between BB and Coney for off-duty trains and trains going on duty to and from Brighton and CI yard.
As per a Department of Subway superintendent the Brighton Line will lose its access to Coney Island Yard as of next week
For trains to reach the yard they will dead head from Brighton Beach to Court Street switch tracks and then operate via the Sea Beach or West End Lines into Coney Island Yard
The Franklin Avenue Shuttle will also use this route
Thank You
I thought at least one track connection would be maintained at all times to the yard connecting the Brighton?
Where will they store all those R40's used on the express during nights/weekends? The express tracks? Oh boy, I see a grafitti bonanza ...
The Superintendent is correct. However, the situation articulated by Barry will last for nine days, not the entire duration of the Stillwell shutdown. Beginning this weekend and continuing through next weekend, there will be no access to the Brighton Line from Stillwell Terminal. However, put-ins and layups will NOT be traveling between Coney Island Yard and the Brighton Line/Franklin Avenue Shuttle in the way Barry cited (though any bad-order trains WOULD turn at Whitehall Street). Other plans have been made, which do not involve turning at Court Street. Additionally, cars that would have been due for inspection next week are being inspected this week instead.
My switching suggestions would not block any track coming from Coney Island.
You will need trains standing by for put ins. If you put them past Ocean Parkway, reversing trains will need to move up very slowly. They need to just bring locals into the Coney Island bound local, relay it on the A5 track and send them out on the Coney Island bound express. And the same for the expresses but using the Manhattan bound platform and the express tracks for going in and local for coming out. The locals are running like clockwork. The expresses are only using the Manhattan bound express track. Expresses are waiting outside, locals are leaving over in front, then the express comes out. This wait is unbearable especially when an local blows right past you. Heck, I even take a local home now.
Running a shuttle from BB to w8th is easy:
1. Have all incoming Q trains (express & local) arrive at the southbound express track (sorry, i don't know the official track numbers).
2. Q locals run empty through Ocean Parkway, switching from the southbound express to the northbound express track before running through to a point south of the station, where they reverse. They then run north thru Ocean Parkway on the Manhattan bound local track all the way to BB, where they go into service.
3. Q expresses run empty into Ocean Parkway, turning around on the southbound express track. The trains switch to the northbound express track as they leave, arriving at BB on the northbound express track, where they go into service.
4. The "shuttle" runs on the Coney Island bound local track between BB and W8th.
Can anyone with expertise explain why this cannot be done?
Gents,i've recently been researching the A class stock and the entire fleet has suffered very few losses since introduction.However 6 driving motors and 5 trailers have been scrapped since then and one trailer /6036/ converted to a sandite/rail treatment car .
Permit me to list the scrapped cars below! and do any of you have any recollections of these incidents??
.
DM 5116 .... T 6029 DM 5029 - Collision Kilburn December 1984
.
DM 5218
T 6208
T 6209
DM 5121 - no info on these
.
DM 5170 T 6170 T 6171 DM 5171 - Collision Neasden August 1975
.
also worth noting is that these are original numbers ,some cars have beem renumbered to take their place since.
.
I recall the collision at Kilburn occured when a train passed a signal in fog (front tripped) the guard looked out to see what aspect the signal was showing,BUT looked out the wrong side and quoted the wrong signal.The tripcock was reset and the train continued (in fog) on a supposed green aspect,until a collision occured.....
.
Rob
Sorry Rob, can't really help. But I do remember the Kilburn crash.
Simon
Swindon UK
What did he hit? The A stock is pretty sturdy; had to be quite a smash-up to take out a full four-car set of A's.
wayne
You mean BMT standard-sturdy?
Nor quite that sturdy, more like R16 sturdy.
wayne
Wayne,lets just say the bulkhead was lying flat and the rest of the cars had damage relating to the coupler heads being pushed back and frame damage.
Rob
Why and when did Police District 20 move from Roosevelt Avenue on the Queens IND to Jamacia-Van Wyck on the E extension?
Not Jamaica-Van Wyck. It's Van Wyck Blvd.
It moved to Briarwood-Van Wyck in March, 1996.
Chambers Street on the JMZ...with those abandoned platforms and high cielings...yuck...
I would have said Canal Street on the JMZ, but they've really fixed it up the past couple years.
West 8th, on the Culver F, well now it's not going there, or the Q, but you get my point...
I like the look actually, in the same way that I prefer redbirds over r142s. It just feels more authentic
I'd have to vote for something really ugly - 57th and 6th with it's boring tiling and urine smell (ok, so smell isn't ugly), or Atlantic Avenue/Pacific St. in it's current construction state.
57 St - 6 Av isn't ugly! It is clean because no one uses it. That's what I remember from last summer.
It's in fine shape, but it was never terribly attractive to begin with. It's clean but ugly.
Lexington E/V is very UGLY
And Canal Street JMZ Station Queens bound platform
It's not ugly - just old. It needs new signage, a new paint job, elevators, some chrome and glass. Lookat what they did to the Times Square 7 platform. That still needs more work.
It can be pretty....
I think you mean the Grand Central platform. After the rennovation it's certainly much nicer, and very cool architecturally. Unfortunately, Lex/53rd IND lacks Grand Central's main advantage--a sense of openness. It's a dark, dank concrete tunnel with filthy, leaky walls. If they clean it up, paint it, install better lights, then it'll be a well-lit, clean concrete tunnel with leaky walls. It's still ridiculously claustrophobic, especially with the kind of crowds it sees during the rush hours.
Dan
The scariest station I ever encountered is Broadway-Lafayette before the renovations. Even 2nd Ave is pitiful.
There are some limitations, certainly...
a
21st/Van Alst, IND Crosstown
www.forgotten-ny.com
You mean 21 Jump St lol. My vote is the Jackson Heights Station on the E,F,G,R,V. My skin crawls when Im there
Oh GOD! Don't mentioned it! ILK!..YUK! Sometime I even wanna throw up when I near it.
Sutphin Blvd. on the "E" Line.
This station looks horrible after only 14 years! So much for the 35-year lifespan of a station. The tarp covering the corroded ceiling pretty much defines the station. But it does look decent on the J/Z (lower) level.
Here an Advise, "Do not go near the station b4 or after you eat"
If you include closed stations my choices are:
The South Ferry inner loop station when the shuttle was still running from Bowling Green. Those concrete archways by each door was ugly.
All the Culver Shuttle Stations except Ditmas. I used to take the Culver just for the BMT Standards but the Stations, especially 9th Av gave me the creeps. The other two looked half demolished even when they were still open.Among stations still in use, the Mezzanine level of the Atlantic Av Station on the Canarsie Line.
How about 6th Ave on the Canarsie Line. That makes the R143 look like it came from Outer Space.
Yep, Chambers Street on the J, M, Z still takes the cake, though they did paint the ceiling, which was peeling before.
All Canarsie Line stations east of Wilson Ave are ugly and look like they should be torn down, especially New Lots Ave and East 105 St.
Chambers Street on the JMZ...with those abandoned platforms and high cielings...yuck...
Chambers Street could be a very nice-looking station if it weren't so cruelly neglected.
While Chambers on the JMZ is definitely one of the stations in the system that is in the worst condition, I can't really say it's the "ugliest" in the system. Even in it's extreme dilapitated state, it has a glow of elegance. It must have been some station in it's day.
As for the ugliest in the system, I'm going to put my vote in for Bowery on the Nassau line. It's very dingy, the tiles are in shambles, and sometimes smells horrible. Essex is also a fairly ugly station, maybe it will be better after they renovate it. I'm also not to fond of the stations on the lower end of the 8th Ave line. The lower end of the 8th Ave line is probably my least favorite "trunk" line in the system.
The best looking station to me has to be Bowling Green. I also happen to like the WTC E line platform. Those bumper blocks are huge, probably the biggest ones in the whole system. The weirdest bumper blocks I've seen are the ones at Flatbush Ave on the 2 and 5.
I had a hard time thinking of what the "best looking" station in the system is. Best-looking doesn't necessarily mean "favorite". My "favorite" station is Union Square on the 456, but I can't really say it's the "best-looking" station.
Here a few stations that I really like, some of which may fall into "best" looking station. I like the 23rd St-Ely station, it always looks clean, and the tiles are a nice combination. 33rd Street on the Lex is pretty sharp also. I also kind of like the look of 18th Street on the 7th Ave line.
The latest Transnet newsletter is up.
NYCT: (1)21 St/Queensbridge (2)57 St/6Av
WORLD: Kowloon Station for the Airport Express (Hong Kong)
81st / CPW is a right fine lookin station.
CG
I personally like Jamaica Center a lot. I won't say it's the best looking in the city, but its architecture is very nice and it's set up with bus bays.
Myrtle Avenue on the J, M and Z. I love the stain glass windows, I hope people there don't mess it up.
And let's not forget the cool iron works on the Franklin Shuttle.
All Stations on the Former Brooklyn & Brighton Beach RR, Brooklyn Rapid Transit Right Of Way From Frankln Avenue/Fulton Street To Botanic Gardens, Now The Brooklyn Manhattan Transit Frankln Avenue Shuttle Line.
Franklin Avenue on the shuttle is right up there among my favorite subway stations. I'd never think I'd be saying this a few years ago.
Franklin Avenue on the shuttle is right up there among my favorite subway stations. I'd never thought I'd be saying this a few years ago.
Hmm...I have a few stations in mind:
1- Utica Av/Fulton St (A)(C)
2- Lexington Av (F)
3- 34th St-Herald Sq (B) (D) (F) (V) (N) (Q) (R) (W)
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
That's easy - City Hall IRT Loop! Hopefully, it will be opened and used for the 100th Anniversary of the IRT - October 27, 2004.
Yeah, that one should be the winner. I haven't heard anything about them doing anything with the old City Hall loop station for the 1ooth anniversary of the original subway. If they are planning any renobvations they had better start fast - it's a major milestone day!
AMEN to that!!!
Hmm, there is a "suthread" to this in the "worst looking thread" that I replied to, but I guess that post should be here, so I will repeat it here:
I had a hard time thinking of what the "best looking" station in the system is. Best-looking doesn't necessarily mean "favorite". My "favorite" station is Union Square on the 456, but I can't really say it's the "best-looking" station.
Here a few stations that I really like, some of which may fall into "best" looking station. I like the 23rd St-Ely station, it always looks clean, and the tiles are a nice combination. 33rd Street on the Lex is pretty sharp also. I also kind of like the look of 18th Street on the 7th Ave line.
NYCT: I think it's either 28th or 33rd St. on the Lex that's been beautifully restored/maintained to the full splendor of its original IRT Contract 1 design and decoration.
Dan
Westchester Square on the (6) elevated! BEAUTIFUL tilework and stained glass. The TA really outdid themselves on this one.
If they ever decide to give it a "skin job" like the B'way BMT local stops, Chambers on the J/M will blow everything else out the water.
149th Street-3 Avenue on the #2/5 is nice, with its nice artwork and flocked ceiling. Too bad they couldn't have saved some of the original cartouches, instead of the sole survivor sitting in the NYCT museum.
Jamaica-Van Wyck (on the "E") is also noteworthy, but there is too much use of orange.
wayne
14st A/C/E
Chambers Street on the BMT. It is also the worst looking. But just imagine what it would look like if it were renovated.
Yes indead. That's why I tried to defend Chambers Street a bit when it was mentioned as the uglyiest station in the system in the other thread. Most neglected and in shambles - yes, but ugliest - no. It would be an amazing station if it was in good shape and renovated.
The best looking stations to me are.
1.21st street/Queensbridge(F)
2.Jamiaca Van Wyck (E)
3.Jamiaca Center (E/J/Z)
4.Canal Street (Q/W) love the mosaics
most potential
1. Chambers St. (J/M/Z)
Ugliest
1. Stuphin Blvd. (E/J/Z)
Someone named Hank Morris posted the following query on the RyPN Interchange message board, and it struck me as possible that someone here might be able to help. It would surprise me if there were any records of these two locomotives' origins, but you never know.
>Bion J. Arnold purchased two former Manhattan Elevated Railway 0-4-4T Forneys [around 1925] to help dismantle the Elgin & Belvidere [interurban line in Illinois]. The locomotives were numbered 54 and 64. He bought them from a gravel pit somewhere along the NYC's tracks from Chicago to New York City.
Looking for history of these locos--builder, date, builders number, lot, etc.
Writing article on E&B--need photos of Forneys.
#54 - Built by Rhode Island 9-21-1878 (BN 728) Rebuilt as Class K2 by Pittsburgh 12-28-1893 (BN 1506). Sold to Elgin, Belvedere & Rockford Ry. Co., Chicago, Ill 9-19-1930.
#64 - Built by Rhode Island 9-26-1878 (BN 723) Rebuilt as Class K2 by Pittsburgh 1-16-1894 (BN 1513). Sold to Elgin, Belvedere & Rockford Ry. Co., Chicago, Ill 9-19-1930.
As rebuilt, both had 42" drivers, 12x16 cylinders and weighed 48,200 lbs.
Ask something difficult next time, OK? ;-)
"Ask something difficult next time, OK? ;-)"
Jeez. I figured that no one would know the history of two run-down, temporary-use, secondhand locomotives that had probably been renumbered and likely came with no paper trail. Guess I was wrong! Maybe for every question you have, there's somebody out there with the answer.
Thanks for the info!
Frank Hicks
Humans are record keeping animals. It's just a question of whether a record still exists and if someone knows where to find it.
In this case, I thought I had notes on some of the Manhattan el locos, and I was right.
I believe the NYC archives still contain copies of summonses passed out 300 years ago for parking your horse on the wrong side of the street, amd things like that. All you need is one good fire, or an uncaring city administration, or a low-level bureaucrat having a room cleared out, and a lot can be lost.
There are two photos of the Forneys in "The Dairy Route, A History of the Elgin & Belvidere Electric Company" by Carl F. Gustafson, along with some text describing their role in dismantling the railway. One picture shows Bion Arnold, the line's owner, posing with #64.
About 25 years ago i bought a book at Powells book store here in Portland Oregon it's about the Forney locomotive by Mr Forney himself,the development and design of the locomotive,i'm not shure of the published date but it's around the late 1800's lots of info.
Powells used to have plenty of old books real cheap but since the 70's prices has gone up,i bought lots of photo history books about N.Y.C. from the 30's through the early 50's for a few dollars ea.300 + pages b&w photos well done now those books are 20+ bucks each.
I was on a SB 2 train this afternoon. Coming into Chambers, I noticed an empty train across the platform, signed throughout as a 3. I got off to await its next move. Eventually it moved south towards South Ferry, but in the meantime an R-62A 2 train came in NB -- north motor 1912, south motor 1981, with a railfan window. They're back! (I saw the same train again a few hours later in the Bronx.)
A bit later, I was waiting at the Canal BMT express platform (which, incidentally, has confusing signage regarding the night/weekend W -- not that I have any better ideas, since it's a confusing service pattern to begin with), hoping for something unusual on the W. I ended up with a boring R-68A, but it was signed at the front as an N. Otherwise, everything was as one would expect, except there were a handful of R-68's on the W and R-68A's on the circle-Q.
Um, where are they? There's a pretty substantial service change coming up in five days and I haven't seen or heard a peep about it in stations or on trains. All I've seen is the new maps (which haven't yet made it to most of the IRT), which only mention the change in a footnote with no effective date. Yes, IRT passengers, especially on the West Side, have learned to put up with sudden service irregularities all the time, but it's not like nobody was able to predict this change. Why isn't it being announced?
I noticed that the signs over the SB express track at 96th claim the 2 runs express at all times. So does the new service guide table on the new map, as someone pointed out yesterday. Is it possible that the 2 really will be running express at night after all?
Nope...#2 trains will run local midnights.
David
Glad to hear it.
Ive seen signs put up at 7Av IRT local stations btwn 14 and 34Sts. It is also on the MTA website. But youre right, there is no type of annoucements, except for the station signs. BTW, the signs gods did it again at 72St N/B. Local signs on the express track, express signs on the local track.
BTW, the signs gods did it again at 72St N/B. Local signs on the express track, express signs on the local track.
Nice job. Uptown or downtown platform? I think I'll aim for a picture of a 2 on the local track signed as an express both on the train and on the sign above it.
BTW, was this sign ever fixed?
Wasn't that there before the post-9/11 service changes? I've seen a couple of signs at the front end of the NB platform that say this:
(1) To 242nd St, Bronx
Rush hours skip stop
(1) local all other times
No mention of the 2 (except on the express track) or 9.
That is one crazy sign!!! What the hell was whoever designed it thinking?
It's been replaced by a sign that mentions only the 1 -- no 9 or 2.
There is nothing wrong with that sign. Look at the punctuation, not the first character (in this case the route number) on each line. It says that the 9 operates during the rush hours skip stop. Proper statement. Following the comma after the words skip-stop, it says the 1 operates local all other times. Period, end of another proper statement. The last statement says: "Late nights 2 to Wakefield-241 St. also stops here.
The sign claims that the 1 only stops at 96th during the non-rush. That's not the case.
Oh no! What the hell is the matter with these people?!?!
-Stef
They must have forgotten which track is which.
Twice? They did that once before during the post-9/11 changes. Why couldn't they get it right this time?
It is fixed now(72St N/B). But now 14St, 34St, and 96St, the sings says that the 2 runs express all times. Only Times Square still have the 3 express and 1/2 local platform signs.
Times Square has been updated, at least on the SB side.
96th is very confused. On the SB side, some signs have the late night 2 local and others have it express. On the NB side, all three signs claim that the only line to stop on the local track is the 1 -- no 9, no 2.
'1/2/3/9 SERVICE RESTORED' red panel poster sighted
today at CHAMBERS IRT... that makes 1... so far.
The Transit Museum Shop at Grand Central Terminal has a limited edition of a Brooklyn PCC made by Corgi on sale for $68.00. It is colored a municipal green which NYCBOT used on there bus and streetcar routes and has a silver roof. I understand that only 1900 have been made. They went on sale yesterday. (Sorry gus, there is no MTA discount on this one)
Larry,RedbirdR33
Do I understand the new TA Map correctly? The N will run express at all times between Pacific Street and 59 Street and the R will run express midnights between Pacific Street and 36 Street. Thanks
Larry
I wouldn't call it exactly an express. It is a shuttle and to avoid having people get on the train only to find out it doesn't go where they want it to, they make it skip those stations. I highly doubt very many people would gain from having the N and R make local stops.
More to the point, trains have to be on the express tracks north of 36th in order to turn at Pacific. Really, the only question was whether to run the N local or express between 59th and 36th.
Some people boarding at local stops might only be going to Pacific (to transfer to the IRT), and some people boarding further south might want to get off at 9th Street to transfer to the F. But that isn't an option given the switch configuration at Pacific.
One unusual consequence is that there's no direct access between local stations south and north of 36th. I hope NB W's are scheduled to arrive shortly after NB R's (and vice versa for SB).
NB, the W is scheduled to arrive at 36 St four minutes AFTER the R; SB, the W is scheduled to arrive at 36 St two minutes BEFORE the R.
Perfect! The only question is whether connections will be held for late arrivals; I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
Finally, Fourth Avenue overnight express service is back after the "improvements" of 1959. It's a shame you can't ride an express from Manhattan.
But if downtown Brooklyn is going to be the terminal, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to run that service to DeKalb so there's a Brighton transfer also available for Manhattan? And someone coming in on a Brighton train from Manhattan could get a Fourth Avenue express at DeKalb.
Trains could reverse at Lawrence Street (which, according to another post, is what's going to be done with Brighton and Franklin trains to get them into Coney Island yard).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
This is the same issue that has affected the weekend W for the past year.
Reversing at Lawrence would be messy -- remember, the N has the same service plan nights and weekends. I worked out some intricate way of using the north side bridge lead to relay, but it would be messy.
Don't forget that the Brighton and 4th Avenue stations at Atlantic/Pacific are connected inside fare control, so that transfer does exist. Those who prefer not to walk can take the W (or R on weekends) to DeKalb.
Does someone have a definite date, and time for the Hoboken Transit Festival this year. I had heard a rumor that it is Sept 29 but can not confirm this. Can anyone confirm this information or give me the proper date?
Official Press Release For Rail Fest Follows:
JOIN THE FUN AT NJ TRANSIT'S FESTIVAL IN HOBOKEN
Vintage Rail Memorabilia on Display
NEWARK, NJ, September 9, 2002 -- NJ TRANSIT is teaming up with the City of Hoboken for a jam-packed day of festival fun on Sunday, September 29. This year, the NJ TRANSIT Festival will take place simultaneously with Hoboken's Fall Art and Music Festival, creating an event that will stretch from Washington Street to Hoboken Terminal.
The festivities begin at 11 a.m. and end at 6 p.m. There will be ongoing entertainment with two stages on Washington Street and one in the Plaza at Hoboken Terminal. Booths will offer festivalgoers everything from arts and crafts to street-side back massages and an array of food on Washington Street and Hudson Place.
Train enthusiasts will be able to browse railroad memorabilia and find lots of interesting mementos on the concourse at Hoboken Terminal. Rail buffs will also be able to marvel at the vintage rail equipment standing side by side with NJ TRANSIT's latest ALP-46 electric locomotive. A shiny new MCI Cruiser bus will share the spotlight with a retired Newark City Subway PCC car out in the Plaza.
The Wild West Train Ride, a perennial favorite of the NJ TRANSIT Festival, will make four trips (12:30 p.m., 2 p.m., 3:15 p.m. and 4:30 p.m.) complete with a "shoot'em up robbery" between the sheriff’s posse and outlaws on horseback. Tickets are $4 for adults and $2 for children under 12. Tickets will only be sold the day of the festival.
NJ TRANSIT will be offering complimentary rides on Hudson-Bergen Light Rail the day of the festival. Festivalgoers will be able to visit the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail table located in the Hoboken Terminal to receive tickets.
A free 45-minute cruise around New York Harbor will be offered compliments of NY Waterway. The boat will make five trips, departing on the hour from the ferry terminal at the end of the concourse, starting at 12 p.m.
For further information on the NJ TRANSIT Festival please contact NJ TRANSIT at 1-800-626-RIDE or visit www.njtransit.com. For additional information on the Hoboken Fall Art and Music Festival call 201-420-2207 or visit www.nj.com/hobokenfest.
Bob, thanks for the timely info.
Ugh, it's the same day as the Arts & Music Fest?
If you were planning to arrive by car to the festival don't count on parking anywhere near Hoboken that day.
If you were planning to arrive by car to the festival don't count on parking anywhere near Hoboken that day.
Heh. Can you ever find parking in Hoboken??
Yeah, you just have to be fairly aggressive. The meter spaces on Washington and right off Washington are where you'll have the most luck. (The non-metered streets away from Washington are going to typically have residents parked and they're not moving until street cleaning day.) But with Washington Street closed for the Arts & Music Fest not only is there a lot less parking, there's no crosstown traffic in that area so you can't "cruise" for a space.
If you were planning to arrive by car to the festival don't count on parking anywhere near Hoboken that day.
I drove to Hoboken twice. The first time was for a steam train (one of the NKP engines IIRC) to Port Jervis. I arrived with little time to spare, panicked and parked illegally on the street next to the train yard. Didn't get a ticket.
The second time I had to pay to park in the parking garage a couple blocks from the station.
Since then I always take NJT to Newark and PATH to Hoboken.
I aslo end up parking in the garage you mentioned . It's only a short walk from the terminal. I don't know the name of the place but it has silver siding on it. It's at 3rd & River Sts, I think.
Chuck Greene
I am planning to arrive at Hoboken Festival by the 126 Bus. Would I have any problems with the 126?
I would guess the 126 will run via Willow-Newark St.-Clinton and not make it down to the terminal that day. But I don't know for sure.
"If you were planning to arrive by car to the festival don't count on parking anywhere near Hoboken that day."
Isn't driving to the Transit Festival, especially considering the considerable PATH and NJT service to Hoboken, somewhat like eating a chicken sandwich at a vegetarian rally? :^)
[NJ TRANSIT will be offering complimentary rides on Hudson-Bergen Light Rail the day of the festival. Festivalgoers will be able to visit the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail table located in the Hoboken Terminal to receive tickets.]
Is Sept. 29th the day Hudson Bergen Light Rail is extended to Hoboken? I had heard that possibility a while back, but when I was in Hoboken Monday, the platforms for HBLR looked months away from completion!
Dammit, I was in Hoboken today. I couldn't find the HBLR lol...where is it? :-\
You know where track 18 is? It's about a mile away from there :·)!
I'm pretty sure the Hoboken HBLR station is in fact in Jersey City...
Bob: Thanks for the info. It will be a busy weekend. Autumn in NY on Saturday at Branford and NJT at Hobeken on Sunday.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does someone have a definite date, and time for the Hoboken Transit Festival this year. I had heard a rumor that it is Sept 29 but can not confirm this. Can anyone confirm this information or give me the proper date? You can also send me a message offline if wanted.
Try the NJ Transit website. I'm keeping an eye on it as well. I'm defenitly taking the train ride this year.
I won't be back here until tomorrow night, so I ask that all of you remember what happened a year ago from tomorrow morning.
It was something so horrible, so scary, that even some of NY's toughest shed tears. I probably will as well, again.
May those souls lost in the World Trade Center rest in peace.
Remember to hug your loved one real tight. And God Bless America
If I may add a thought that someone ELSE who lost loved ones in the collapse sent me. Read or ignore as you wish:
While many people are struggling with how best to
observe the anniversary of the September 11th
attacks one way is becoming a very interesting
option.
Turn off the news.While the media performed a
fantastic service on that fateful day and the
months since in helping to disseminate important
information... it's time to turn them off.
Every major media outlet is planning extensive
coverage of the day with heartfelt and touching
stories, all beautifully written and edited.
And we should appreciate the hard work
that they do. But there will be no news there.
There will simply be a rehashing of sentiments
that we've all felt, a replaying of video footage
that we've all seen, a retelling of stories that
we've all heard.
There is no value in letting the media tell us,
once again, how we should respond emotionally to
the facts of that day.
There is an alternative.
Turn off the news on September 11th,2002.Turn off
the TV.Turn off the radio.Turn off your computer.
Make the day about something else.
Spend the day with your family and friends.Take
the kids to a park and play in the warm September
sun.If it's raining this Wednesday,pull out
the cards or a board game.Enjoy each other's
company.
Take your spouse,girlfriend, boyfriend,or
significant other out to dinner or lunch.Talk.
Laugh.Tell those in your lives that they matter
to you.
If there is one thing we all have learned from
those events a year ago,it's that life is
precious and fleeting and that you never know
when you'll get a chance to tell the ones you
love how you feel.
This September 11th would be a good time to do
just that...in deeds as well as words.
Imagine it as a new holiday...a holiday when we
tell the people in our lives how much we value
them.
How ironic would that be?Such an act of hatred
becoming the cause for a tradition of love.
It would be great if the biggest story on
September 12th... when everybody turns their TVs
and radios and computers back on...was the
massive decline in audience across the country.
Imagine how humbling that would be to a
news industry that has come to take itself pretty
seriously.
Imagine how good it will be for all of us who
have become used to being bombarded with
9/11 stories for 365 days in a row... with no
end in sight.
I can still remember Exactly what I was doing last Year at this time. Midnight on 9/11 I was at Cortlandt Street. I made the 00:00 at 00:02 Chambers to 242 St. At 1AM I took my last look at the WTC going home over the GWB. I remember going to sleep at 4AM while my dad woke up and was getting ready for work. I was woken up out of a sound sleep by my Mom at 9:35AM and told me there was a Fire on the top floors of the WTC. I remember saying its no big deal and went back to sleep. Sometime around 10am or 10:15AM I was woke up again to my mom screaming. So I took a look at the TV and couldn't believe what I was seeing. The first thing I seen was smoke with 1 tower standing. Soon after that went down. I stayed glued to the T.V all day. I think only 1 TV News station was on the air.
Now a year after I will come to work doing my daytime assignment on the No.1 Line. I may do my normal routine on Wednesday Night and go to the South Street seaport after work.
Couldn't have said it better.
I've been dreading this moment for a while, and as it gets closer to that time, I feel it's time to shut off my computer.
I guess my perspective's a bit different - lost 12 friends down there and Nancy lost her dad two days later in an unrelated event. When it affects you directly, it's hard to have a stomach for grandstanding politicians and staged events. I was nervous about even posting that for fear it would be taken the wrong way ...
Well, I do want to say that on a day like Sept 11th, Subtalk, together with my other Message Board (DC Comics) helped to keep me from panicking. Just doing a little bit of my routine helped to keep me sane. And there was just a little bit of support from my online "guys". Thank you all for that.
:-) Andrew
Well, I do want to say that on a day like Sept 11th, Subtalk, together with my other Message Board (DC Comics) helped to keep me from panicking. Just doing a little bit of my routine helped to keep me sane. And there was just a little bit of support from my online "guys". Thank you all for that.
SubTalk really came through that day. Unlike the news sites, almost all of which were inaccessible.
Yes, God Bless America. Everytime I see pictures of the towers on fire, I pause and reflect on what happened on that day and how we need to make sure nothing like that ever happens again.
*OPINION, ANY FLAMING WILL BE DISREGARDED BY THE POSTER*
I think that everyone stressing today as a day of rememberence are kind of odd. I mean cmon now, how could we forget what happened one year ago today. If you had loved ones who died, I feel your pain, but something like that you simply don't forget. For everyone to say remember remember remember, it's not like anyone forgot here. A tribute to the actions that happened in rescue/recovery should be honored, as well as a ceremony for those who perished. But to call today as a Day Of Rememberance really doesn't sound right. Also, just as a comment to the English language. The term anniversary has been appearing frequently in the media and among people as a word to call today. Usually, anniversaries are happy events (wedding usually...). Just the word itself in my eyes has a happy vibe. Ah, whatever, going to bed now. Take or leave what I said, but don't come after me please.
>>> The term anniversary has been appearing frequently in the media and among people as a word to call today. Usually, anniversaries are happy events (wedding usually...). Just the word itself in my eyes has a happy vibe <<<
"Anniversary" itself is a neutral word denoting the passage of a year. You are giving it a secondary meaning by defining it as a happy event. Of course we all want to celebrate happy anniversaries and more or less ignore the unhappy ones. In my opinion there is much too much being done (particularly by the TV networks) to mark the 9/11 anniversary. A few moments of silence all across the nation is appropriate, and short memorial services in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania are also appropriate, but it should not become an annual thing. One year is the traditional time for mourning. Now that a year has gone by it is time to put this behind us and get on with our lives.
Tom
Well said John. 9/11 will be remembered by all Americans, as well as the world. In addition to that, I think people who have grown up in or near NYC (I include the tri-state area in this) have a special connection, one that it is hard for others outside of the area to comprehend. But nontheless, American soil was attacked, so, like many Americans, I will have a moment of silence. -Nick
All I can say is May God bless the 9/11 heroes and their families especially to the victims who survive from tragedy here in NY and in DC. To my friends, familes, and Subtalk colleages May God bless you and protect you. I love you all. :)
Last year at this time, I was on vacation. At 3 AM on September 12, I was on my was driving through police roadblocks at the Nassau/Queens border and the Throgs Neck Bridge. I avoided looking in the direction of the manhattan skyline. To this date, I have yet to view what we now call "Ground-Zero".
Today, as I was a year ago, I'll be on vacation. We have all changed in the last year - but, sadly, not enough has changed. As a nation we're still engaged in debate instead of making meaningful changes. My prayer for the one year aniversary is that the national debate will end and appropriate preventive action will be taken so that this or any future generation will not relive the horror of one year ago.
Amen. I was watching the special Nova produced on 13, 'Why the Towers Fell' and I got queasy with all the stories. Geez, man, let's hope we get through this day.
I prefer to recall other events which have occurred over the years on Sept. 11. For instance:
On this date in 1971, I was fitted for my high school band uniform and we had a group photo taken for our football program.
On this date in 1973, I got my driver's license. Wayne was on a broiling, crush-loaded F train when Ralph paid a visit.
In 1976, I played at my first football game with my college marching band.
In 1980, I was on my way to a new life in Colorado.
I'm watching the reading of the names of the victims, right now. Let's each remember one thing! One large difference between us and the savages that brought us this day -
We honor our fallen. We retalliate for the attack on our land.
They avenge their dead and seek to kill those who dare to live diferently.
So long as they exist, we will never be at peace.
Agreed.
Actually, I had almost forgotten that Sept 11, 2001 still existed. I'm glad you posted this to remind me, since I highly doubt that there's going to be anything on TV to remind me.
I watched on TV the services.Man oh man,did it really hit home for me.That old saying,''MAKE LOVE ,NOT WAR''really makes sense to me right now. God bless all. Definetly you guys[and ladies]here,because sometimes I get lost,and you guys help me get back. So from the bottom of my heart,thank you....
Does anyone know if all the cars have finally finished coming in I'm refering to the r142's, 142a's also the r143's.
They have not all been delivered...
reefing a r -142 ??
>>>>>>.......................lol
where do i go to pick up the line schedules
& subway maps ??
i need the 4 5 7 A Q etc ....not a whole lot of em
Subway maps are available at most stations. Just ask at the token booth.
Schedules are hit-and-miss. Ask at the token booth, but you'll probably be out of luck. Check the racks scattered around some station mezzanines, especially transfer points.
thankz that is what i thought maybe atlantic av / lirr is a good
shot !!
( much appreciation ) @ smile ....lol !!
[maybe atlantic av / lirr is a good shot !!]
If you are going into Brooklyn, go to the NYCTA Customer Service office on the 1st floor of the TA Jay Street building (I think it's 370 Jay?), which is just up from the middle exits of the Jay Street - Boro Hall Station of the A, C and F. They usually have all the subway line timetables on a rack you can get to.
OK what station is this near ?
It's directly above Jay Street on the A/C/F. It's a block or two from Lawrence Street on the M/N/R. It's a few more blocks from Borough Hall on the 2/3/4/5.
>>They usually have all the subway line timetables on a rack you can get to.<<
No all of it, I been there numbers of time and they don't have the V W G B D timetable, especailly the W timetable, I have go all the way to astoria station to get one.
You can also get maps and schedules on-line at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/subway/index.html
We've just made our reservations for our next trip to NYC in November.
Previously we've flown into Newark, but this time it's JFK. This will be my first landing at that airport for over 30 years, though it is where I made my first even landfall in the USA, at the end of my first ever flight, in 1968. I'd like to try out the Airtrain if possible. A few questions.
Will the Airtrain to Howard beach be operating by mid-November? (I assume Jamaica won't be -- shame, that would have been fun to try. Maybe next time.)
Will we have to pay $5 a head to get to Howard Beach station? I understand that the Airtrain will be free within the airport, so obviously they won't charge when you board. So, will the PA collect $5 as you leave the Airtrain at Howard Beach, and then the TA collect another $1.50 at the token booth a few feet away to get on to the subway? Surely the PA and TA could devise something a bit less clunky than that! Is there an TA booth in the airport terminal to buy subway tokens or Metrocards?
At Newark, where the Airtrain is run by the same PA, you ride the Airtrain to the NJT station for nothing, but the PA's $5 levy is (in effect) included in the price of NJT tickets from that station (so that they seem inordinately expensive compared with those from Newark Penn). The difference, compared with Howard Beach (or in future Jamaica), is that at the NJT Newark Airport station there is no exit to the outside world; you can only arrive at or leave the station by train or Airtrain. So they will need to do something different for the JFK Airtrain, where a person presumably could simply walk away from the Airtrain without boarding a subway train.
JFK AirTrain should be ready by the time you come. As to fares and exact opening day of service, you'll just have to wait for an official PA announcement. Check the PA website: www.panynj.gov.
Jamaica will be ready in the Spring of 2003.
JFK AirTrain should be ready by the time you come. As to fares and exact opening day of service, you'll just have to wait for an official PA announcement.
I am annoyed and inconvenienced by the Port Authority's vagueness concerning the opening date. My stepdaughter and I have to make a quick trip to Los Angeles, preferably to Ontario airport, in the last week of October. We'd like to take JetBlue, which has nonstop service between JFK and ONT, nice new aircraft with seat-back TV's, and assigned seating. I have vowed to myself, however, that I will not under any circumstances whatsoever deal with the horrible ghastly PA shuttle buses that currently run between JFK's long-term parking and the terminals. My most recent experiences with those buses last month was gruesome and degrading.
I have to buy the tickets within the next couple of days. Given the PA's coyness about the AirTrain opening date, it looks like we'll have to take Southwest from Islip. I've got nothing against Southwest, and have flown them many times, but their service to ONT/LAX is less convenient than B6's and will take longer (prices are comparable). Thanks for nothing, Port Authority.
Doesn't that kind of whining embarass even you sometimes, Peter. I know...do you have kids? If so, ask one of them to stick a lollipop in your mouth. Temporary relief from whining.
By the way, JetBlue runs a shuttle bus from Jamaica Station. Catch the LIRR to Jamaica, get off and follow the signs to the JetBlue bus.
Unless you have ridden the shuttle buses recently, you will not understand what I'm talking about.
Unfortunately, I do know what you are talking about.
A. I just gave you a direct option from Jamaica Station on your preferred airline. If you choose not to take it, that's your problem.
B. AirTrain is nearly ready. The fact that you happen to be buying tickets possibly a couple of weeks before they cut the ribbon does not mean the sky is falling. Get over it. Unless you have terminal cancer and only have weeks to live, you'll have plenty more chances to use AirTrain.
The JetBlue shuttles from Jamaica are not run by the PA.
CG
Service to the Subway will be free.
Service to LIRR there will be a surcharge but a combo pass of AirTrain and LIRR just like Newark will be available.
AirTrain is run by the Port Authority at JFK as well.
Service to the Subway will be free.
Source? I hope you're right, but everything I've read indicates a fare of about $5 to Howard Beach or Jamaica.
[Service to the Subway will be free. Service to LIRR there will be a surcharge but a combo pass of AirTrain and LIRR just like Newark will be available. AirTrain is run by the Port Authority at JFK as well.]
I was on a tour of JFK AirTrain back on Aug. 28th, and the official word then is that there will be a $5 per person charge for those entering and exiting at the AirTrain Station at Howard Beach. Supposedly, the same $5 per person entering and exiting charge will be put into effect when Jamaica opens next year, but that can change, of course. Supposedly, you will not be able to exit the Howard Beach subway station onto JFK Airport property other than by using the $5 AirTrain entrance (otherwise, you could walk to the Lefferts Blvd. AirTrain station and get on for free).
AirTrain has got to be much better than the current bus shuttle system, although the bus shuttles are not, in my opinion, as bad as mentioned in this thread subsequent to splitting the shuttles into 3 separate routes.
Wow, I thought they said free. How about getting off and walking into the long term parking lot?
[How about getting off and walking into the long term parking lot?]
As I said in my previous post, "Supposedly, you will not be able to exit the Howard Beach subway station onto JFK Airport property other than by using the $5 AirTrain entrance (otherwise, you could walk to the Lefferts Blvd. AirTrain station and get on for free)." It remains to be seen how this will really work, but I fear that the PA will do what it has to in order to make subway riders pay the $5 fee.
"(otherwise, you could walk to the Lefferts Blvd. AirTrain station and get on for free)"
I guess you could walk a mile from the Conduit Ave (Aqueduct) A train station to the Lefferts Blvd Long Term Parking station and get on there for free. But that woud be rough with luggage.
[I guess you could walk a mile from the Conduit Ave (Aqueduct) A train station to the Lefferts Blvd Long Term Parking station and get on there for free. But that woud be rough with luggage.]
As I understand the PA's plans, you could not take that walk through the long-term parking lot. Rather, you would have to take a circuitous route along public streets, clearly not workable. If you could get from the Howard Beach subway station directly into the long-term parking lot, you could hop the shuttle bus the PA will run to take you to the Lefferts Blvd. Long Term Parking AirTrain station, eliminating the long walk.
"As I understand the PA's plans, you could not take that walk through the long-term parking lot. Rather, you would have to take a circuitous route along public streets, clearly not workable."
My point was that from the Conduit Ave station, it's not circuitous. You walk east on Conduit and south on Lefferts. All of this is public streets (though I admit I don't know if there are sidewalks). It is however a mile, a killer with luggage.
So split a cab with two or three strangers, either to the parking lot or to the airport proper.
There aren't any cabs at Conduit, or reliably at any other A train station. I've been told that even at Jamaica station cabs may or may not be there (though I've done that twice with no problem).
That's because there's no need for cabs there now. When it will suddenly cost $5 per person to get from Howard Beach to the airport, cabs will show up.
And there are certainly cabs at the airport. People will use them to get to the subway.
There seems to be activity going on at Worth Street northbound platform. New railings along the platform have been installed.
Does anyone know whats going on?
Probably going to be increased storage usage.
a.k.a. put in a refuse room
Lester Worth is a funny name if you do it last name first.
Just browsing through the London Underground's web site, thetube.com yesterday, there is an article about NYC's cost for 9/11. Look at the photo from Smith/9th. I could have sworn that someone posted this photo, but they cropped it making it smaller. I remember the F train and the flag waving as it is and the photo is about the same quality. In the post I'm thinking of, the person had a before and after 9/11 photo, this obviously being the after one. Anyone remember, or is this just a very common shot?
Any number of people could have similar photos from Smith/9th. Two of mine are similar to the one in the thetube.com photo: F train and G train. Unfortunately, we won't get any more like this work train.
It's similar, but unless it's an incredible photoshopping job, it's a different photo. The flag is blowing the other way, and the train is slightly behind the position it is in in Bob's photo. The image quality is also dramatically different.
-Hank
Airliners.net recently added a feature that lists and ranks all registered users by the number of postings they've made. It's a nice feature. Could something like that be added to SubTalk?
By the way, I rank 208 out of 10,528 a.net users.
Ahh the old post/call ratio nonsense. I've been around BBS systems long enough to know that the only thing that number is ever used for is for people who are lower to post nonsense to become higher on the list. No thanks.
I agree with you, Dave. Worthless and even counter-productive.
Ahh the old post/call ratio nonsense. I've been around BBS systems long enough to know that the only thing that number is ever used for is for people who are lower to post nonsense to become higher on the list. No thanks.
Interesting point. I never thought of that.
I agree too. I use the forums at Train-Sim.com and there are all too many braggarts that worry ONLy about telling everyone how many posts they've made....not that too many of their posts are, as stated above, productive.
It's almost as bad as people here bragging that they made post 300000 or something like that.
WHO REALLY GIVES A POOP????
Yeah, and while you're at it, how about "download privileges?" One upload of absolute trash to be able to grab ten pictures. It'd be like RBBS all over again. :)
Well there's been great advances in the technology since then... e.g. the Slashdot ranking moderation system. I was thinking of implementing that here. But I bet it wouldn't be too popular with some!
Heh. Yeah, it's an interesting weighing system. Alas, slashdot is so heavy with chatter, I rarely have time to play there much anymore. And yeah, it'd definitely cause some twirl. Don't mind me, I'm just SO grateful that this isn't another UBB. :)
Heh, I'm still upset from upgrading my 300baud (yes baud) modem to 1200, I couldn't read the posted messages as they came into my commodore 64. I had to let them load and then SCROLL through them!!
Geez at 300 you just sat at the screen and read as the message loaded.
Now this cable modem thing....
I still have my genu-wine Radio Short "300 baud acoustic modem" where you'd plant the standard telco 500 handset into the rubber cups. Heh. I also remember when 55 baud was hot stuff and 110 baud was "high speed" ... you're not fooling ANYONE, sonny. :)
But yeah, here in Joe Bruno's "tech valley" we're STILL on dialup. No cable modems, no DSL. This is HIGH TECH country! Joe Bruno and his Wal*Mart dancers say we'se high tech because we don't have to crank the peecup truck anymore. It's up on BLOCKS now! Woohoo!
Heh. I also remember when 55 baud was hot stuff and 110 baud was "high speed" ... you're not fooling ANYONE, sonny. :)
Yup.... and the first Internet BACKBONE was three 56Kbps Lines! : )-
ARPANET! I actually operated a NODE back then for the state of NY ... Folks wonder why I do what I do with privacy and security software, I'm a throwback to the days when the internet WAS secure! And along came Billy years after everyone else got a clue and the internet was SAFE and easily secured.
(and we wonder why Al Qaeda kicked our butts - Aiyee!)
WAY OFF topic here - for those who have been on the internet for a while and saw it all fall apart with Aiyee, check out this prophetic piece before the US FTC I did back before the cheap suit REALLY came apart. WAY OFF topic here, but I'm used to not being listened to ...
FTC Testimony in 1997
(good stuff is down towards the bottom before "cable modems" and "broadband" took off when Microsoft had JUST "integrated" the browser and the OS - this is WHY we make the software we do)
You ever read the "Crackers Handbook"?
Heh. I even read the "Anarchist's cookbook" ... and "Necromancer" and yada yada ... but yeah, playing with the script kiddies is one of the reasons why I'm up all night on this end - that's when they're playing so I gotta also. Getting out cures fast is everything when they cook up something new. Most of the time though, they steal each other's trojans, edit a few bytes and call it something new. It ain't. :)
>> Most of the time though, they steal each other's trojans, edit a few bytes and call it something new. It ain't. :)
Hell Intuit does that every year and then charges $50 for "an upgrade" for Quicken
/* Source Code to Windows 2000 */
#include "win31.h"
#include "win95.h"
#include "win98.h"
#include "workst~1.h"
#include "evenmore.h"
#include "oldstuff.h"
#include "billrulz.h"
#include "monopoly.h"
#define INSTALL = HARD
char make_prog_look_big[1600000];
void main()
{
while(!CRASHED)
{
display_copyright_message();
display_bill_rules_message();
do_nothing_loop();
if (first_time_installation)
{
make_50_megabyte_swapfile();
do_nothing_loop();
totally_screw_up_HPFS_file_system();
search_and_destroy_the_rest_of_OS/2();
make_futile_attempt_to_damage_Linux();
disable_Netscape();
disable_RealPlayer();
disable_Lotus_Products();
hang_system();
}
write_something(anything);
display_copyright_message();
do_nothing_loop();
do_some_stuff();
if (still_not_crashed)
{
display_copyright_message();
do_nothing_loop();
basically_run_windows_3.1();
do_nothing_loop();
do_nothing_loop();
}
}
if (detect_cache())
disable_cache();
if (fast_cpu())
{
set_wait_states(lots);
set_mouse(speed, very_slow);
set_mouse(action, jumpy);
set_mouse(reaction, sometimes);
}
/* printf("Welcome to Windows 3.1"); */
/* printf("Welcome to Windows 3.11"); */
/* printf("Welcome to Windows 95"); */
/* printf("Welcome to Windows NT 3.0"); */
/* printf("Welcome to Windows 98"); */
/* printf("Welcome to Windows NT 4.0"); */
printf("Welcome to Windows 2000");
if (system_ok())
crash(to_dos_prompt)
else
system_memory = open("a:\swp0001.swp", O_CREATE);
while(something)
{
sleep(5);
get_user_input();
sleep(5);
act_on_user_input();
sleep(5);
}
create_general_protection_fault();
I'm ranked #1060 with 225 posts, I guess I need to start posting more gibberish :-)
Is there a map showing what parts of the NYC subway system are above ground? This would be useful for tourists to ride the system and see parts of the outer boroughs. I think the F train to Coney Island has a couple of miles of above ground trackage, while the W train is mostly in a cut.
It's not a map but there's a list of what's what in the FAQ.
FAQ
To be more specific, see:
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/elevsec.html
Your list is missing the 3, which runs on the surface north of 145th. The station and adjacent yard are covered (by an apartment building, I think), but the curve into the station is exposed.
I don't think that trackage is above ground. I think it's on the surface.
It is, but the list includes everything that isn't pure subway.
If you can see the sky, it should be on the list. I would count that.
I just saw this little gem on airliners.net (CX = Cathay Pacific airlines, YVR = Vancouver, TPE = Taipei):
Just got off CX881/10Sep from LAX to HKG. Arrival into HKG 6 hours late due to "sick" passenger who had to get off 1/3 into the flight.
We left LAX at 0200 on 10Sep. Well over the Pacific a passenger says he is sick. 4h10m later we touch down in YVR because the passenger claimed he needed an apendectomy.
After dumping 75 tonnes of fuel into Vancouver and then buying another 118,000 litres to continue our flight comes word that the "sick" passenger is fine. Just a little indigestion. Meanwhile the crew is over their duty time of 18 hrs so we have to put down in TPE to change crew and pick up another 35,000 litres of fuel.
Cost to CX.
1) 75,000 tonnes of fuel dumped on arrival into Vancouver
2) 118,000 litres of fuel picked up in YVR.
3) US$6,000 landing fee in YVR.
4) US$10,000 landing fee in TPE.
5) 35,000 litres of fuel picked up in TPE
5) Extra 2 cockpit and 19 cabin crew picked up in TPE and then....
We get word on the flight from YVR-TPE that the passenger is fine and in a hotel in Vancouver waiting to take today's flight on CX to HKG.
It looks like the "sick passenger" problem on the subway is pretty trivial by comparison!
Wow!
Of course, the problem is that you can't tell early on about appendicitis. If it turned out to be true appendicitis, and the airline hadn't let him off at Vancouver, a burst appendix in flight would have cost millions in a lawsuit...
Very good point, Ron.....
Ya know, about four years ago, *I* had all the symptoms of appendicitis.
And it turned out to be colon cancer. Fortunately, it was caught early, had a surgery to remove a few inches of the affected area, stapled/glued/sewn back together, and I'm doing quite well now.
Good for you! I celebrate your good fortune - and your good sense to see a doctor quickly.
May you have 100 years of continued good health. And a ride on the Second Avenue Subway.
Wow, interesting. I'm sure strategies could be formed based on that to intentionally cost your least-favorite airline some money.
Hey! I resemble that remark!!!
I call on the MTA to extend the V east of the 2nd Avenue station. The Lower East Side could use some penetrating subway service. You could have it go east until Ave C, then turn it up. I'd say it'd would be an addition of two stations, one at Ave B-Houston and a terminus at Ave C-10th.
Good idea. Take a piece of paper, and write a letter to MTA. Post the agency's reply here.
That's an alternative if the lower half of the Second Avenue will not be built, but something will be.
The two have nothing to do with each other. The hardware to assist the V line's extension (rebuild of Bergen Tower, Manny B repairs, more rolling stock) are under way and fully funded. Extending the V is merely a service plan change, nothing more.
"Extending the V is merely a service plan change, nothing more."
The V extension being suggested in this thread involves new track under Avenue C.
In this thread, yes. But MTA may or may not require that to extend V service. A polite letter to MTA suggesting it, with or without mentioning new track, would be worthwhile. The agency will answer.
wasn't there a plan like that years ago called the ''Avenue C Cuphandle line''?
Yes, there was, in the early 1970s. This time around, a light rail line was considered but rejected due to the expense.
David
Well,there should be some type of rail down there>ie a Second Ave branch to the Essex st/Delancey complex,connecting to the F. I know,I know... the DEIS doesn't include this,nor is this in the plans.BUT,it should be.
My Plan (lest anyone forget it) involves a new service called the 23rd Street Subway. It provides great service along Avenue C, and better than the (V) it connects with ALL north south subway lines (albeit at local stations on 23rd Street). It also extends into Brooklyn, bringing new service to places that need service.
Maybe *I* should write a polite letter to the MTA.
But then any plans that I have drawn are LOOOoooooonnnnNG Term.
Elias
call on the MTA to do nothing! thats just plain stupid,its not going to happen like you think it can be.things dont happen like waving a magic wand and poof theres a new tunnel and 2 new stations.it takes money,money that can go to other WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY more important things than a mere,pathetic 2 station extention.its not necessary whatsoever.ok? now do me a favor,and this goes to everyone else,LEAVE THE DAMN V TRAIN ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! one crap after another!I'm sick of it!!that's it,I've had it.do this,do that,get rid of the V train because this and that,its doing what the hell it was made to do,if people dont like it,thats just to damn bad.they can pack their bags and move to another country for all I give a damn.But I am sick and tired of people saying one thing after another about the V train.
Extend it to here,do this with it.wether it be a fantasy suggestion or not,pick on some other damn line!leave the V train ALONE!!!
This is Subtalk, Darlene. He's entitled to suggest what he likes. Yu're entitled to point out the weaknesses in his argument. Your points about lack of cost-effectiveness are good ones, but they can get lost in the rest of the diatribe.
The V is a train, not a person. It is a set of electrically driven cars with a letter displayed on them, just like any other train. It will not be insulted if somebody wants to extend it or shorten it. It will not be insulted if R32's substitute for R46's.
Calm down a little. I like reading what you have to say, but sometimes you make it hard...
:wether it be a fantasy suggestion:
That's exactly what it was you moron. Learn to use punctuation (and maybe a dictionary) before you go on a rant.
didn't seem like it to me. and don't tell me what to do,I take orders from nobody.And pick another train line if you don't want me to rant about it.I'm simply sick and tired of everyone picking the V train like they're bullying it.
So my idea of extending the V into Alphabet City is "bullying" the line? Your argument bears no logic.
If I didn't know any better I'd say your passion about the V train is an act. What are you going to do when the V is eliminated from service?
As I stated before in another post,the Houston street line should be extended east toward the EAST RIVER,south through Alphabet city,and southeast to downtown Brooklyn.TO ME,It doesn't matter what train they use,[BDFQV] AS LONG AS IT GETS DONE. A line extention will do the system a world of good in that neck of the woods,and definetly live up to part of the IND Second system's route projections. Two stations added to the Houston street line,in an area that has clammored for subway service for over 60 years can not be concidered ''dumb and stupid'' In the MTA 1968 study ''Plan for Action'',a route was proposed to run from HOUSTON/2 Avenue station to Avenue C ,north to 14th street,hook up to the 14th subway to 8th avenue. Of course it didnt pan out [like the Second ave line because of the City's problems] So even if the TA DID INCLUDE the new line in it's new routes program ,AND if the V was chosen to operate there,there would be nothing that ANYBODY COULD DO ABOUT IT!. it's a subway route ,TA ran and owned...
oh that's simple,nothing. why? because it never will be elimated from service.And its not the extention itself,it's using the V itself as the line for it.
oh that's simple,nothing. why? because it never will be eliminated from service.And its not the extention itself,it's using the V itself as the line for it.
Nobody's "bullying" the V train! We're simply offering alternatives to where the V train should terminate, alternatives that are way better than dead-ending at 2nd Avenue. That is a big part of Subtalk, so you might want to get used to seeing people post suggestions about extending subway lines. That's not going to go away.
no offense,but to me it looks and sounds like people are "bullying" the V train and to me it is fine where it ends since all its only job is to ease over-crowding and nothing more.
I have to say this LADY,but there you go again.... Take the time out to research the subject... The TA must have thought it was a pretty good idea some30 years ago to want to build a line over there. Actually,the Board of Transportation wanted to build the line to Brooklyn in the late 1920-30[start 1930. Finish all new lines by 1940],but WW2 got in the way,and Second system subwaylines never camr to be. What we did get was the IND Smith street subway ramp to the Cluver line like Hylan wanted. Even to this day,the most recent E.I.S[for the Second ave ''stubway''] studied the POSSIBLITY of a light rail line from 63rd street/Second ave, down through Alphabet City to the Essex/Delancey complex former trolley terminal. So the idea of a extention to that area using the Houston street stub,is nothing new under the sun,nor is it dumb.,or stupid. Or the matter of using the V line as the service of choice. you are wrong,in this one.I feel your passion concerning the V.. believe me,I have my favorites too [Eastern division!!!]! But there is no need to DISREPECT people who disageree with you,or get flipped on for suggesting a way to make a ''one way''[the old Bway express service of oneway loads] train better!Calm dowm! this is only a posting board. where we TOSS IDEAS AROUND,GET THE LATEST SCOOPS,AND TALK ABOUT TRAINS. Nothing we say here will affect the subway service directly[unless we go over to opperations planning and make them do what we want]It's all TALK!!! LOVE YOURSELF AND OTHERS WILL FOLLOW...
Hey Dudes & Dudets,
Will miss reading the messages on SubTalk for the next two weeks.
Off to Maine and my annual operating binge at Seashore. Have to
keep my qualifications current in the North Country. Will be
about Seashore from the 14th thru 24th, most days, dependent on
the regulars being available and the Mrs.
Maybe I'll get some "Weather & Transit" in person? Any SubTalkers about that area look forward to meeting you. Just ask the Dispatcher on the platform of the where abouts of the operator from Brooklyn. Not to many at Seashore, know me by my alias of "Sparky". Or ask to see the guy that speaks funny and says carr not caw.
Looking foward to seeing many SubTalkers at Branford on return at "Autumn in New York", Sept. 28/29 and/or "A Gathering Of SubTalkers at Branford" Sunday, October 13.
;| ) Sparky
Sparky,
I'm glad you'll have a "fix" up north. September is a great time to be at Seashore. Alas, I'll be on Lawn Guyland next weekend for Yom Kippur and have an obligation here at MIT the following weekend. I hope to make it up there on 9/28 for an intermodal event planned for a group (bus and trolley rides :-)
If you go up to the office, perhaps one of the staff will sign you on to the Internet so you can check in with us here on SubTalk and let us know how it's going for you.
I was willing to rent him a notebook, but it didn't have AOL so he couldn't figure it out....
Nah just kidding, have fun Sparky!
>>>"I was willing to rent him a notebook, but it didn't have AOL so he couldn't figure it out....
Nah just kidding, have fun Sparky!"<<<
Hey Lou,
My abode, new this year to us, didn't have in cottage phone service,
so a notebook, wouldn't have been of assistance.
Interesting trip, as I did get to Operate six different cars on
my visit. Almost mastered the brakes on 4387 for a smooth stop
and it's time to leave.
Well there is always next year, as I have a Lifetime devoir to
Seashore.
The highlight of the journey was on Monday & Tuesday, 16th & 17th
to see the dismantling of SEPTA (Red Arrow) Sweeper #5, not a part
of the collection. The wreckers were Danny, the parts meister &
Jack, ex yard master and overseer on Monday, the Callowhill Inspector.
Haven't reviewed the footage from ny video as yet, on two different
tapes and a battery swap also.
But did get to chat with a former SubTalker on the second Saturday
of my visit, "Second Avenue" was the Dispatcher.
Had a blast, as usual.
;| ) Sparky
"The highlight of the journey was on Monday & Tuesday, 16th & 17th
to see the dismantling of SEPTA (Red Arrow) Sweeper #5, not a part
of the collection."
Did they finally scrap that thing? Good riddance - it needed to be put out of its misery. I'm from upstate New York and would have liked to see it saved, but I know as well as anyone that no museum in its right mind will try to save EVERYTHING.* I saw #5 in 2000; what a piece of junk! Knowing Seashore, the parts will be put to good use in other cars.
Frank Hicks
*I've long thought that scrapping is always a better "last resort" than simply letting something collapse and sink into the ground. I've caught a lot of flack from (coincidentally enough) a Seashore member over some stuff IRM has done, but I hold to this position regardless of the museum involved!
"The highlight of the journey was on Monday & Tuesday, 16th & 17th
to see the dismantling of SEPTA (Red Arrow) Sweeper #5, not a part
of the collection."
Can I get confirmation from anyone that #5 was indeed dismantled? E-mail me direct if you feel like it. Thanks!
Frank Hicks
FRANK: The body still exists, it was gotten only for its components. It is now stripped and will probably be dismantled entirely.
We also dismantled ex-Rochester trolley #502, because we acquired #394 two years ago as a replacement, in MUCH better condition, and it needed many of #502's parts to be complete.
CONRAD MISEK
Frank,
Maybe, I should have been more specific. The body of SEPTA sweeper
was dismantled down to the floor & trucks on the track behind
Seashore's bunkhouse in the "Well". As of this past Sunday, the
carcass remained in the same location.
After clearing the track space in the "Well" locomotive 300 pushed
crane 0551 in place and Danny C. operating the crane, with a chain
and cable with Jack C. positioning, they disassembled the body of
#5 on Monday & Tuesday, 16th & 17th of September, 2002. I was there
in person on Monday for this unique event.
Even upon returning to my cabin, later then had been the norm for
my visit and explaining to the bride, why I was tardy, she stated
"Seashore scrapped a car".
Conrad the body of #5 is another pile of scrap behind the bunk house as of 17 September, 2002.
John Sikorski, SERY Life Member
aka ;| ) Sparky
...last year on 9/11?
I was working a night tour that week. I got out of work at 6am. I stopped to have breakfast before going to vote that morning after the polls opened at 7am. I was home by 8am went to bed. At 9:30am I woke up to use the toilet. It sounded like every TV in the house was on. My upstairs neighbor told me that a plane had crashed into the WTC before. I was watching Fox5 when the 2nd plane crashed. I had just seen a plane crossing behind the WTC over NJ. I was surprised that a plane would be flying after what what had happened. Something about it disturbed me. Then I saw a plane crash into the 2nd tower. I finally went to bed after 1pm. I didn't get much sleep because my wife and daughter were trying to get home. And they did. But when I got ready for work that night, I was up for it.
I was at work, listening to one of our radio personality morning shows when one of them broke in with, "We just received word that a plane has struck the World Trade Center in New York". The rest unfolded before our eyes and ears.
I was on Job M214 that day. I was heading to Metropaliton Ave when some one sid on our Radio "That the World Trade Center look like it was on fire." I thought that the sun was hitting the tower and making to look that was. I was at Kinakerbacker Ave at the time. When I got into Met. that when I found out that it was a plane that hit it. As I was watching the TV the second plane hit. I was there for about a 1/2 hour when I was sent back out on the train. I got to Chamber St. witch was the last stop when I was told before hand. I when into the Relay and came out. Thats when I found out that the first tower came down. The trai behind me in the relay was just getting smoke in his last car. I was sent up to Canel st. and I sat there for about three hours not knowing what else was happening. I got back to Metropalition Ave later that day and sent home. By time I got back there I found out the my wife was OK up at 135st at her friends home. My mother left me a voice mail on my Cell phone from St.Loise. I got a hold of her at her Hotel and told her that everyone was OK.
Robert
I was on a n/b R going from Brooklyn to Manhattan. We were delayed, being told there was a "smoke condition" at Cortlandt. That's my station for work, so when it was announced we'd be bypassing it, I de-trined at Rector. I sensed something was wrong when everyone seemed to be exiting very slowly. Then (must've been 9:03)heard this extremely loud bang. Everyone on the platform just looked at each other with a searching look in their eyes. When I finally got to the top of the stairs, I could see the south tower in flames & debris flying everywhere. I walked to my office at Broadway & Maiden Lane, where I saw all of my co-workers being evacuated. We all stood on the corner trying to piece it all together, but I didn't feel comfortble there, so I started walking toward a friend's office on John Street, in order to see a friendly face & use a phone. Friends weren't there, but a co-worker of their's told me they had phoned from Brooklyn & were ok. CNN was on at the office, & that's when I fully realized what was happening. Called my girlfriend (now fincee), and told her I was ok. Strted walking toward her office in Chelsea. Stopped for a drink at a cafe in the East Villlage. Spoke to a guy who'd never been in NYC before. He'd been in tower 1, was evacuated, and started running he finally stopped at E4th, & asked me where he was. Fiannly made it to my gf's office. Watched tv for a while, then decided to give blood. Lines were ridiculous, so we went to Peter McManus' for a drink (hey, I'm Irish). Folks from every walk of life were there, & we all talked, telling our stories, strangers all.
Thanks for letting me tell (part) of my story here.
At the risk of being sarcastic:
"There are 8 million stories in the naked city. This has been one of them."
I was starting my day when a colleague told my about the first plane. While we were watching CNN - we heard the plane hit The Pentagon and saw the smoke. In 1993 I was still living in NYC and I remember what chaos it was when the bomb exploded in the WTC garage - and to put things into perspective... we thought that was just a horrible day, then 9/11/01 happended. I was happy the was the verious agencies went into action and let's not forget the transit agencies too. They definitely rose to the occasion.
Wayne
I was at my desk at work at 2 Chase Manhattan Plaza (2 blocks from the site). As a matter of fact I had just finished reading the postings here on Subtalk when I collegue told me a plane had hit the WTC. I looked out the window and saw papers flying all over. I really didn't think much of it at the time. I thought that someone had opened a window and threw some papers out (for whatever reason).
I went into a large conference room where one of the 2 TV sets was turned on. I could see where the plane hit and was watching intently while discussing the possible causes. The reasons ran from a small plane that went off course (on the TV the impact area looked small) to a terrist hit (which none of us thought was the cause). We then saw the 2nd plane hit and we knew what it was.
I should point out that I was the Fire Warden (a volunteer position)for my floor at the time and was doing my best to keep everyone calm while trying to find out if the Fire Safety Director of the building wanted us to get people ready to evacuate the building. I can tell you it was not easy. At one point we got the insturction to get everyone to the center of the building where the staircases are. Right about that time the 1st tower started to fall with a loud roar.
I walked into a corner office and saw the facade falling. The ensuing cloud of dirt and debris that was headed toward my building thru Cedar Street was more like what you would see in a movie. I got out of the office and closed the door just as the debris hit. Thankfully Cedar Street is very narrow with buildings on both side so the velocity was not very high and the window of the office held.
During all this time I was telling people not to leave the building as we don't know what is going on. It was good advice because many would have been caught in that enveloping cloud. At that point it was decided to evacuate people into the below ground floors at 1 Chase Manhattan Plaza by means of an underground passageway between the 2 buildings. They were allowed to go home after about an hour or so by an exit at the far side of the building. Every time I looked out a window it looked like scenes from a movie showing the aftermath of a volcano.
I stayed to make sure that everyone had left the floor safely. I then assisted in our groups' "Command Center" operations because most of the main particpants were in midtown at a meeting when the planes hit and could nto get downtown. I won't go into what our cOmmand Center does as it is internal and confidential. As the hour neared 5 PM my own resolve and stamina was starting to give out. I could have stayed there and slept on a cot but all I wanted to do was get home in the Bronx. I walked through all dust and debris that was still in the air first to Brooklyn Bridge but the 4.5.6 were still not in service. I then walked to Canal St but the N and R weren't running either. I walked further to Bway-Lafayette and was able to get an F up to 42nd where I took the 7 to Grand Central. After about a 45 minute wait the first uptown #6 arrived and I finally got home an hour later. My blue suit was almost white. I vaccuumed it and myself before getting into a shower (I took the suit to the cleaners the next day).
For the next couple of hours I was either on the phone to family and friends or On-line emailing them that I was OK.
I am now in Jersey City (the move was planned way in advance of 9/11/01). But I will never forget that day.
My story is actually on topic! I discovered what was happenning not at first through the news media but with my own eyes, while exiting the subway at Union Square. I had had a hell of a time getting to Manhattan. At Queens Plaza I heard an announcement that no trains were running into Manhattan. I should've stayed in Queens, but I stubbornly boarded an (R) that hadn't gotten the memo. The trip was slow as hell. Seeing as I was going to be late for work, I decied to transfer to the (Q) at 57th, to railfan as much as to save time. Having gone so long without a Broadway express, I was savoring it. I heard an announcement that no trains were running south of Canal, but didn't make much out of it other than idle curiousity. I remember the last seconds of innocence, looking at the newly restored 28th and 23rd Street stations, noticing how well they were comming along.
Then I got out at Union Square, and saw from a 30-odd black distance the World Trade Center on fire. I didn't connect that sight with anything sinister or even life-threatenning, which pretty much means I didn't put two and two together. "Wow!" I exclaimed to the many onlookers, "So that's why the subways are so #*&$ed up!"
Yes. This bumbling fool continued on to work with hardly an inkling of how deadly the world was becomming arround him! I saw many fire trucks racing down 5th Ave, and I stupidly thought to myself "I bet I know where they're going!" With some difficulty I crossed 5th and went into my building. There were still more onlookers outside. I was beginning to feel apprehensive, but it still wasn't kicking in. The security guard and I chatted for a minute. She said something about how lucky we were, that we were somehow protected "from above", looking up aparently at the ceiling. Then I said the stupidest thing I said all day: "What? They don't have a sprinkler system in the World Trade Center?"
No. That was not intended as a joke. I was taking her litterally becauase I was still, amazingly, oblivious. But her reaction started me into realising just how serious the day's situation was.
I proceded to the basement, where my office is. (I never thought I would ever be so grateful for such a location!) And there was my phone, ringing again and again. It was my wife. "Did you hear what happenned?!!!" She told me of the planes hitting the World Trade Center. I mentioned that I had seen the towers on fire. It was she who cued me in to the probability that it was an act of terrorism, and that tens of thousands of lives hung in the balance. Terror finally hit me.
My office has a TV (I'm a video editor at an ad agency, so it is there largely for screenings and for taping news and/or other competetors commercials and such), which I turned on to NY1, figuring the local station would surely have a little news of the event. If there were ever a greater understatement in media history! Fellow employees wandered in and out, looking for news, switching between NY1, CNN, MSNBC, and the local broadcast stations. Then the first tower crumbled and fell. I saw it happen on CNN. And at that point I was shocked to the point of tears. I don't think I have ever seen anything more horrible in my life.
I went online. I went to my usual haunts, here on Subtalk, and to the DC Comics Message Board (the Wonder Woman area...go ahead and laugh if you want!) I needed something to ground me, something "normal" to keep me from pannicking. I found that my online acquaitances were asking about me, and that was a comfort. It was on Subtalk that I first heard that the second tower had colapsed. I also voiced a worrisome comment that I might not get home that night. Someone replied that I was lucky, compared to those that knew for certain that they would never go home again. Very true. My wife called again, mentionning one of the most horrible occurrences of all, the people who jumped out of the second building just before it colapsed.
When I heard about the plane that hit the pentagon, all remaining doubts that this was an act of terrorism were put to rest. When I heard about the plane going down in Pennsylvania, it was the icing on the cake. Any other day, it would have been the day's top story, and would have been chalked up to mechanical failure. But today this event wasn't just a tragedy, but also another horrible omen. I was the most terrified I've ever been in my life. Was this the end of the world? How would I get home? Would I ever get home again?
I managed to stay in contact with my wife in her office in Queens, but I could not get through directly to my father in The Bronx. He could, however, get through to my wife. With my mother and sister (in Queens and Brooklyn, respectively) also calling my father, my closest relatives were able (thank God!) to confirm that we were all safe. But I had other realitves who lived and worked close to the towers. It was hard as hell to find out what was happenning to them, but (thanl God again), all were safe in the end. My brother-in-law had a particularly hard time, compared to other members of my family. He did get injured in a cab accident in the confusion, and was stuck in a hotel basement with a gas mask for hours. When he got home he was covered with soot and missing part of a tooth. Small loss compared to many others.
My boss told me to leave if I could find a place to go. So I walked over to the apartment of my uncle, aunt, and two young cousins. There I stayed for most of the day. My six-year old cousin was remarkably perceptive about what was going on, and pretty much figured it out without being told much. Her two-year old brother just got excited at all the fire trucks.
Eventually I did go home, and I cried and cried and cried. I could not sleep that night. I had to have the TV and lights on, like a little kid.
So that's my story. Not remarkable, except of course to me.
--Andrew
In my rush to finnish my post, I forgot about one of the most enduring pictures of the event in my mind. When I was walking from my job to my relatives' house, Manhattan had shut down. There were no cars, no busses, no trucks. But there were hoardes of pedestrians, walking generally away from downtown, all wearing the same expression of shock that I was. Odd though it seems, I don't think I've ever felt a greater sense of community in my entire life in New York, as just that moment when all of us were walking, utterly silent.
--Andrew
Last year on 9/11, I was on vacation as I am one year later. I was building cabinets in the basement for my wife to replace the storage space my trains now occupy. I was cutting the doors in the garage and was blissfully unaware of what was going on to the west. When I came in to install the doors, I heard the news.
Oddly enough, I recently rebuilt the laundry area in my home. Today, as I was a year ago, I'm installing the freshly painted doors for the cabinets.
I was loading my car with tools at around 8:45 because I was going to drive to a friend's house to help hang a door, when my cell phone rang. It was my father, and he said to turn on the TV because a plane just one of the towers. I didn't even think much of it, and took my time to finish putting the tools in the car, and even made a business call, as I had taken off that day, and just wanted to tie up some loose ends. I leisurely walked back inside and turned on the TV, expecting to see a little 4 seater plane in the tower. As I turned on the TV, and watched for a few minutes, I saw the 2nd plane hit in amazement. The rest is history.....
I was on my honeymoon in the Bahamas. We were scheduled to come home that day, woke up in the morning to dress for breakfast, and turned on the TV. At that moment, the second plane crashed into the towers.
At approx 8:45 I hopped in my car in Williamsport, PA for the long drive back to NYC. It was a beautiful day, I thought, blue sky a hint of frost on the car. The radio in my car was broken, so I didn't hear the news.
It was not until around 11:30 or so that I stopped for gas in Jersey that I realized my world had taken a drastic change in the time I had been driving.
I didn't make it home that day.
i was flippin burgers in the Cambria Heights McDonalds. i had to be to work at 3am that morning. LOL hard to believe that mcdonalds is open that early in the morning. but anyways i performed my duties till about 830 in the morning when i heard the words "take ur break" so i punch out and go into the crew room. anyways i turn on the TV and i saw the first plane hit on TV. i was like wow thats a hot movie cause i thought it was. but then, it was on EVERY CHANNEL! Anyways i clock back in and i am cooking all of the food on the grill. But then it hit me! my mom was right at 101 barclay building NEXT DOOR to the towers. not to mention my brother works near Canal street on the E which is ONE STOP from WTC. sometimes he even falls asleep on the train and ends up right in there! Anyways thank God he had a Train operator and not a Motorman that day! he says he was operating the train sooo unsmoothly he couldnt fall asleep, that way he got off at Canal and not WTC. anyways my brother and mother did see the towers fall. they ended up footing it across the queensboro bridge to a STILL RUNNING 7 TRAIN. Anyways everyone made it home safe. even my Dad was affected and he is a Bus operator on the Q88. he told me he had heard it over the TA radio. they told all operators in manhattan to ABANDON THEIR BUSES SOUTH OF 14TH. and then all MTA rides were free sometime in the afternoon. i even was at the mcdonalds today that i was at last year when it happened! now i work for MTA Metro North.
I gave myself two weeks of unpaid vacation after quitting employment of twenty one years to start TA September 17th. Bought my own car, had insurance for it and was preparing to leave while consuming breakfast and watching the news via satellite. I thought it was a cartoon or something 'Orsen Wells.' All access was closed by 11AM...came in through the Tappan Zee Bridge, drove down to the Bronx and got my car inspected, drove back to White Plains to find Motor Vehicles closed, down to the Bronx to my girlfriend. Several hours later, TV said you could access Manhattan with proper ID...never did.
Left the car in the Bronx, home by subway and went to Motor Vehicles on West 34th Street the next morning. An eerily empty city...found an abandoned car on 60th Street and Third Avenue covered in ash.
11 Sep 2001 is my official hire date at Borders. I was called the night before and told to come in at 6 PM on the 11th for training. But it obviously didn't happen on that day -- I was called again around noon and told that they were sending people home and the store was closing early and that I would be contacted over the next couple days.
But getting back to that morning, I arose around 9 AM and turned on the computer to go online. When I signed onto AOL, one of the headlines mentioned a plane crashing into the WTC and there was a picture of thick smoke coming out of the one tower. My first thought was that it was a hoax (ala "War of the Worlds"). Unfortunately it was very real.
And there was a Borders in the WTC plaza area. And I saw a very in detail documentury on Ch.5 with these camera guys, real brave souls. They were filming in front of that Borders, as the empty vacant plaza lay strewn with debris, meanwhile somebody left the Muzak on there and it was playing "always a woman to me".
Creepy, real creepy.
That day I had two days off. Thinking to start my day early, I had planned to go into manhattan (from my residence in Brooklyn, 18th ave on the F my stop) to J and R and then to Borders Book Store at WTC. However, something stopped me that morning, instead I decided to trek uptown to 34th st and 9 ave to BH, and to visit my grandfather at work on 32nd and 6th, So i took the Q from Newkirk ave, to go to herald sq. Going over the bridge, The burning tower was brought to my attention by people yelling at the windows, i thought they were nuts till I myself took off my headphones and turned around. My first impression was a horrible accident, andbeing an aviation buff, I thought some poor pilot misnavigated. Anyways, I couldnt resist it, I got off at canal and started walking towards the towers, taking pictures with my recently aquired SLR, I didnt get too far because as I was walking, I saw the second plane hit the tower, I must have stood still for about a minute or two, but it seemed like i was standing there for an hour or so. I stuck around and tied to contact my mother and father, however all the payphones had huge lines, when i finally did make it to one, my parents' cell phones were out. I went into Situation awareness and realization mode, being a member of the auxillary police in my precinct, i figured since all of the police and fire personnel were being dispatched to a what i figured was a level 4 mobilization, then they would need some sort of presence at the precincts, I ran home accross the manhattan bridge, while running accross the first tower fell, Every one was silent,except a few random screams that could be heard out in the crowd, I ran down flatbush ave and to the south of prospect park then further down. Going home and changing then heading back out is what began my almost 5 month tour of rescue and recovery related activities. Working on and off for almost 6 months. I must say that while it brought me some sort of relief that i was doing something, the aftermath health effects i felt were very bad, Insomnia is one of the worst symptoms of this that i still suffer after a year . it is 102 in the morning and i am stil not asleep. It was a rough day.
Thank you very much for letting me share my story among the 1000s of others that are out there.
I want to Thank Subtalk as well as my friends Marty (marty on the board) and Joe (thejoe) as well as Playland(r.i.p) for showing their concern, none of my friends were able to reach me, however I was able to see their messages only when i first checked out subtalk later in the week of the 11th when i was able to respond and tell them i was okay.
Thank you all. God Bless us all
I will tell anyone who will listen that I do not watch television, But then, I don't count CNN as televison. I was getting one of my patients ready for a transfer from my infirmary to a placement in a nursing home. When ever I get my patients up, I turn on the set, mostly to arouse them and to let them awake to natural noises rather then my just pulling them out of bed. So I have a lot of work to do to get my patient up, and I see on the set the news coming from New York. I see the first tower on fire and hear the commentary. It does not look too bad. I was unaware that it was a 757 that hit rather than somebody's piper cub.
Then I see the jet fly into the second tower. I went and got the Abbot so that he could look too. I could not believe what I was seeing.
The I saw the tower fall. I invoked the name of the lord, and then used a descriptive word that I had learned in the Navy. It's GONE, I exclaimed! If this were a Star Wars movie, I would have said something about feeling a disruption in the Force. But there was a disruption in the Force nonetheless.
Last night at his conference, the Abbot expounded on some of these themes. He spoke of how the people who were doing this truly thought they were doing the work of God. The same God that we also worship. He said that there is a dark side of religion. The same faith that is so strong to drive the spiritual being toward good, can also be misdirected. To support his premise, he quoted St. Bernard, well renowned as a monk who truly loved others well, but who also wholeheardedly supported the Crusaides when he said that "Killing Muslums was God's will." The Spanish Inqusition also comes to mind.
The followers of bin Laden are not alone in their faith or their misguided faith or hatred. Before we hate them, before we kill them, let us look at ourselves, to see what (if anything) this hatred is doing to us.
We have touched on this board many times, some have called it racism, and others more properly identified it as economics or 'class' distinctions. Coming from a good Republican household, where Rush Limbaugh is revered, I can see one side of the issue. The other side, is that there *are* more have-nots who just might get together and oust the "haves" in a war not unsimilar to what bin Laden had begun. Though if the truth be told, I think that a greater harm was done to this nation by Enron, World Com, and Authur Anderson than was done by bin Laden and his flunkies.
It behoves the rich, in my opinion to eliminate their anamosity to the poor, and open their coffers, indeed their hearts (if any) to the poor and needy of this world. It will not hurt them to do so, It will hurt if they are attacked by the worlds poor.
It behoves the poor, to work with the wealthy and not to attack them, for without the wealthy there would be no jobs no enterprize, no wealth for them to covet, and they would be no better off than they are now, and perhaps worse off if some despot such as Saddam or the Talliban would arise to take over.
It should matter not to the poor how much money the rich have (you cannot eat money if there is no grain or meat to buy), and it should matter not to the rich how much is spent in aid to the poor, since that money must come back to them again when it is spent either by the poor in the markets, or in infrastructure improvements such as the Second Avenue subway.
Maybe I am thinking that wealth is like love. It grows when you give it away, and diminishes when you try to grasp on to it. Certainly the fall of the markets demonstrates this latter posibility. Me thinks that the markets were artificially too high, riding as they were on the falsified wealth of the greedy, but that is for someone smarter than myself to ascertain.
Elias
I apologize for saying this knowing EXACTLY where you're coming from, but once again, WOW. People would refer to both you and I (we're on the SAME wavelength here as usual) as COMMIES. But yes, to borrow a Heinleinism, you GROK. Now if only there was a way that we could explain this to everybody else in a meaningful, materialistic way.
I almost became a Franciscan. You *DID* it ... while I know that agreeing with your words will earn some scorn, they're absolutely "body of, Sacred Heart of" ... THANK YOU. Just so you know someone else stands with you. The media-induced "reality" of all that we suffered yesterday is so antithetical to a Godly solution. And some day, we'll ALL have to face it. Once again, THANK YOU.
Where there is hatred, where there is confusion, we all know who the sponsor is. I walk away.
Our Archbishop is a Franciscan.
Unca Kevin as a Franciscan???? Unca Kervin with a shoe paddle! Unca Kevin would have made a darned good Deputy Superintendent.....we both missed our opportunity twenty years ago. CI peter
I'm quite satisfied with the way things worked out on this end. Did the supervisory stuff for a while too. Signing time cards isn't as much fun as you'd think. I'd rather WORK for a living. :)
Understood! I get flak from a-holes because i'm given supervisory tasks. The conversation between myself, the Deputy Supt and the key supervisor is like 'You're here even under adverse conditions and you'll pick up a couple of overtime hours when necessary without saying NO to be of help and we are limited to what we can do but.....'
I'll stay the next pick.....
Signing time cards is no longer just one sups job anymore...i'll walk a ten car trainset to inspect glass that should have been previously inspected and provide a detailed write-up...every supervisor for every team has to provide me with work orders for replacement Mylar window shields. Eight windows...all day. Problem is the time on my feet...every thing else like scratched FiberGlas seating has to wait.
Yesterday I got 'You're the only one in troubles.'
The work and pay is good despite the mess and slackers. Crew looks for me for troubles even when I am assigned to specific inspections.
maybe I'm not close enough to supervision to see real slackers.
Did R142 undercar today and was informed to check couplers for specific loose hardware....gave engineering a surprise
A busy day goes fast. It's standing around on "spare tire duty" that drags on and on ... don't knock it. :)
Spare tire duty isn't so bad when you're getting paid for it. Where I worked last summer, I was on spare tyre unless I was specifically asked to do something. Now, here's the catch: I would only be paid for the time I actually spend doing the actual tasks. Therefore, I don't even get paid for being a spare tire, but I still have to show up in case there were assignments for me.
Now THAT is bad.
AEM7
For years, I did spare tire duty for television studios (24 hour on call) but man oh man did I CHARGE for it. They paid. But having to report to an office, punch a clock at designated time coordinates and sit around doing nothing ... well, I'd prefer the blow to the head thank you. :)
Four hours of troubles...the two Indian guys I try to stay away from always have 'a barrel of monkeys' instore for me. One car had a runaway air compressor...governor was set for too high a cutoff pressure and i hads to tear it apart for adjustment...set it properly but found an acceptable leak in the regulator base. Other car had a really worn out brake cylinder leaking mucho air..wrote it up and reported it for obtaining a replacement. Also found a damaged shoe beam...PA system blaired 'Inspector Murricane report to the shape up room immediatly.' One day they'll know I'm OnTheJuice.
CI pulled off the line for medical visit...given the job to finish Redbird propulsion inspection. The work that should have been accomplished in four hours wasn't...I started a complete inspection at 11AM and asked to do O/T to finish. I gave one hours notice for completion...turned out more like 2 1/2 and I'll get paid in hours or benefits. No spare tire duty for me....Unca Steve was right...'When they find you love the work they'll try to get you to work for free.'
New Tech R142 undercar is vacation..pick about all the valves and hoses, change brake shoes, do pneumatic tests, clean some crap out, change snow blocks and paint journal bearings/trips. Over before four hours. I want 'busy' work that percolates my brain. CI peter
'When they find you love the work
they'll try to get you to work for free.'
Aint that the TRUTH.... sad, but truth nonetheless.
Peter, in your post you mention a few things that are not clear to me..
...I started a complete inspection at 11AM and asked to do O/T to finish. I gave one hours notice for completion...turned out more like 2 1/2 and I'll get paid in hours or benefits. No spare tire duty for me....Unca Steve was right...'When they find you love the work they'll try to get you to work for free...'
1) What is "notice for completion"? Do you have to notify supervision when you are one hour from completing a job? Or are you required to estimate time to do a specific job?
2) "I'll get paid in hours or benefits. No spare tire duty for me..." I would assume you would get paid OT (time and a half?) or maybe compensatory time off. If you work OT do you have a choice of how you are compensated, say OT pay or time off? And what is "spare tire duty" and how does it enter into the conversation about working (and/or being compensated for) OT?
Thanks for expanding on your original post, your posts are always interesting and VERY information, especially to someone like myself who has zero technical backround as to how the subway and the equipment operates. I've learned much from reading your posts, but from time to time you lose me with some of the technical jargon. I hope you don't mind explaining on some of this stuff from time to time for the uninitiated like myself. As I said, your posts are a real treasure chest of information for me, and I hate to miss out on half the info due to my technical ignorence.
Piggo
Well money plays a big role in war, and wealth disparities also can increase crime.
I do agree with your points, but I usually don't talk about rich vs poor because especially in these times, I don't want to be labaled a
communist.
But I've always believed that the more money a person haves, the larger the obligation to give.
Progressive Taxation
I was preparing to teach a class in Machine Design at BuffState. My wife called me and told me a plane went into one of the towers. Like so many others, I thought it was an aviation accident. Later, she calls and tells me a second plane hit the other tower. Finally, she tells me about a plane going into the Pentagon. Regardless, I go to class. I can't concentrate, so I cut the class short after about an hour. When I return to my office (which is in the back of a classroom), there is a TV set up and several of my colleagues are watching. One tells me: "The south tower came down." I say: "What do you mean, 'came down'?" "It came down." "How could it come down?" "It just came straight down." I looked at the TV, and there was a tower burning out of control. "It's standing." "Yes, but there's only one. The other one came down."
Now, I'm frantic. I'm calling my mother in Great Neck, my brother at his place of business (garment center). I can't get through. My daughter calls from home. She said they immediately canceled classes at UB. I told her to keep calling until she knows what's going on.
I'm trying to calculate casualties in my head. I'm guessing if there are 25000 in the building, there could be thousands more in the street, in the subway..........quick! Sub-Talk!
I turn back toward the TV. Down goes Tower 1.
Classes are canceled. I get in the car, turn on the radio and go home.
My daughter got through to both my mother and brother. My brother was out late the night before and overslept. When he got to the LIRR Syosset station, he was told that there were no inbound trains. He never went in to Manhattan. All relatives are safe, including two who work near (but not in) WTC.
I haven't lived in NYC for 29 years, but I'm feeling very connected today. As an American, as a New Yorker, as an engineer, I'm taking this very personally.
My wife is home early as well. We go to an Office Max, she needs something or other. The radio is on throughout the store. Someone asks Giuliani about casualties. He doesn't know, but says that whatever the numbers are "it will be more than we can bear." I start crying, right in the store, a 50 year old fat bald man.
Like everyone else, I watched a lot of TV in the next 48 hours. I tried to keep my emotions in check. I was most interested in the who, how and why this happened, and what the government response would be. I was proud that the citizenry of the City seemed to helping wherever they could.
Of course, the networks looked for the human angle. The stories were interesting. But one touched me more than any other. I think I saw it on Nightline. The president of Cooper Fitzgerald was being interviewed. He seemed a young man, perhaps in his mid-30's. Given his position, I estimated that he was probably very wealthy. He took the morning off to take his daughter to her first day of school. When he heard about the tragedy, he immediately went to Manhattan to check on his employees. With barricades up, he could only get so close to the building. He'd ask evacuees, what floor were you from? The floor numbers slowly began to rise on average, but never reached the upper floors where his company was. As he's telling the story, you can feel the building panic in his voice and mannerisms. Then, he relates, the tower fell. No one from Cooper Fitzgerald made it out. Not one. He's estimating 800 dead, including his brother. He totally breaks down on national TV. Grief, shock, fear, guilt. At that moment, his wealth and power mean nothing to him. He is just a human being feeling the loss of his "second family," like so many on that terrible day, but it is multiplied by the sheer numbers involved.
I go to sleep. I wake up in tears. I can't tell my wife about this without difficulty.
Reading Sub-Talk the next day was cathartic. Each poster had different feelings.....anger, fear, conciliation, grief. Plus, it was good to follow the minute-by-minute recovery of the subway system, of which we all have such pride in its ability to (usually) service the City's transportation needs. I download a picture of the Towers taken from Smith/9 St station by Dave, apparently from a 2000 railfan trip (Redbirds on the IND!). It is still on my desktop.
The president of Cooper Fitzgerald was being interviewed ...When he heard about the tragedy, he immediately went to Manhattan to check on his employees. With barricades up, he could only get so close to the building. He'd ask evacuees, what floor were you from? The floor numbers slowly began to rise on average, but never reached the upper floors where his company was. As he's telling the story, you can feel the building panic in his voice and mannerisms. Then, he relates, the tower fell. No one from Cooper Fitzgerald made it out. Not one. He's estimating 800 dead, including his brother ... At that moment, his wealth and power mean nothing to him. He is just a human being feeling the loss of his "second family," like so many on that terrible day, but it is multiplied by the sheer numbers involved.
And just a few days after the tragedy, the company (Cantor Fitzgerald, not Cooper) announced that it was cutting off health insurance benefits for the families of the dead workers. Public outcry forced the company to change its position.
I guess you can say that I liked him better when he was vulnerable.
Being out here in California...i wasn't awake yet. My best friend called me on my house phone, then cell phone, then house phone, then cell phone again. When i finally picked up wondering who in the world was calling that early, he said "Don't (*#)(# argue with me, just turn on the TV...where are your parents today?"
(My parents are restaurant consultants and they were in charge or running Windows on the World. Around the time I moved here, they were considering relocating their offices to WTC. They are there alot...and very easily could have been there that AM..thank god they weren't!)
Running for my life, clueless was to what was happening.
Like so many others.....I still can't believe it to this day. Luckily I didn't know anyone that was killed, but there are so many people I know that were in one of the towers or 7 WTC (thank God, all still alive). Many of them, however, are still not over what they saw that day.
I was at home in New Jersey sleeping, since I had worked till 2am that morning. I had fallen asleep with my radio on 102.7. While drifting in and out of sleep, I heard Don and Mike say something about an airplane hitting the WTC. Being that these guys normally do comedy, I thought to myself "This isn't funny", and went back to sleep. At some point I heard them mention that the Pentagon was hit, and judging by the tone of Don Geronimo's voice, I realized that he was serious. I proceeded to turn the radio dial and that's when I realized that all hell had broken loose.
I reported for work at 5pm that day at Raritan Yard, and my crew ended up hanging out for 3 1/2 hours, we then relieved a crew that was going up to High Bridge, then we deadheaded back to Raritan Yard. We then had our "normal" 2 1/2 hour break, then worked the 11:48 pm in to Newark, then the 1:04 am back to Raritan. We were told not to collect fares. There was almost nobody on both trains. I mean no disrespect whwn I say this, but WORK WISE, it was the easiest day of my life. REALITY WISE, it was very emotional, it was terrible, and of course, we did not know what to expect next.
I was driving to work in Bristol, VA-TN from my home in Abingdon, VA, listening to Imus on the radio station I work for. In the middle of a conversation I heard him scream in his microphone to Chuck McCord, "Chuck, are you watching MSNBC? The World Trade Center is on fire." The first thing I did was try to reach my brother on his cell phone because his job (uninterrruptable power systems) often takes him to that part of Manhattan to install and service some of the large UPS units at the World Financial Center, Banker's Trust, One Liberty Plaza, and the Trade Center itself. I couldn't raise him, so I called his wife and found out he was in LA for the week taking training classes.
Once I was assured that he wasn't there and ok, I pretty much stayed in the newsroom and watched the whole thing unfold on TV, while also trying to route a myriad of network feeds for the news people.
It was pretty tough to watch because I had worked on the 110th floor of the North Tower for several years. Two radio stations I had worked for, WYNY-FM - now WKTU - and WPAT-FM, both had their transmitters up there and I spent a lot of time over the years working on them. I also had worked on the roof of the North Tower in conjunction with those jobs, as well as on the ledge of 108 that contained various microwave dishes.
It was especially hard for me watching the north tower collapse as that huge antenna mast I had worked around for so long just dropped straight down. I also new some of the TV engineers that didn't make it out. I remember watching the smoke pour out of the north tower before the collapse, and knowing the stairwell system pretty well, thinking to myself, "My God, there is no way anyone up on 110 could get out unless they could get from the transmitter rooms to the roof." I was there in 1993, and remember a pregnant female transmitter engineer from channel 2 (WCBS) being airlifted from the roof because she couldn't make it down the stairs. So I had hoped some of them might have gotten to the roof. As I watched, it eventually became clear that they couldn't have gotten a helicopter up there, and from nearby TV helicopters it was clear that no one was on the roof. I still can't look at video of the north tower collapsing. I have to turn away. Too many memories of too many faces.
I think the worst moment of this first anniversary actually came for me last week as I was watching a documentary on The History Channel called "Relics from the Rubble". The documentary dealt with items they are trying to collect for museums and memorials that made it through the disaster (in one form or another). As they were showing various items, they showed the antenna mast, which is being stored at JFK. As they panned the camera down the mast, I saw the Master FM antenna that my radio stations had used. That was tough to see -- way too close to home.
Anyway, thanks for letting me tell my story. Realizing that this is Subtalk, I would be remiss if I did not say how much I loved riding the PATH from Hoboken to WTC, coming up out of the basement station and walking over to the E train for the trip up to Seventh Avenue station. (WYNY-FM's studios were at 1700 Broadway - corner of 53rd and across from the Letterman studio). It's the only radio station I've ever worked for where I had to take the subway to get to the transmitter. I used to love to stand in the railfan window and watch the action as we made our way to WTC. Back in the 80's, however, I used to have to take the PATH from Harrison to WTC to get to WPAT-FM's transmitter at WTC. Those were great railranning times for an old foamer like me.
Thank you for sharing that recollection it is much appreciated.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're not so old. I was employed by General Electric through ManPower as a comm tech. Went up on the WTC tower roof to check out some coax connectors because IBEW mandated their electricians had to install coax for repeaters and they used to cross thread the Andrews Heliax connectors and break the berrylium copper pins in the process.
I think the tower was not the one carrying the RCA 25 story tall duplexed antenna...winds were high and I never went to a roof edge. Bring us back Cortlandt Street and G&G Radio. 1625s went for thirty five cents apiece and you had to kiss butt for an ARC-5 that covered eighty meters. CI peter is WB2SGT Extra Class!
I can remember going to radio row with my father back in the early 60s to buy parts for his many projects and experiments. I can also remember going down there with him when he bought me my first shortwave receiver, a Hallicrafters S-40A. I've still got it tucked safely away. Someday, if I ever get the time, I would love to restore it. By the way I am N2GQL, General Class, working on getting my extra ticket. I work 40 meters and 20 meters mobile quite a bit to talk to my brother (KB2BAF) in upstate NY. (We are both usually on the road about the same time each day).
And, oh yes, I've had experience with Local 3 guys installing Andrew and Cablewave connectors, so I know where you're coming from. But, I've also had them wire audio, video, and control signals in control rooms and they did a remarkable job. Most of them are just not RF guys, though. In the end, at most stations, we would end up doing the RF stuff while they watched -- which was fine with me.
Radio Row must've been something. I'm also a radio buff, but all we have now is a cheap knockoff of Radio Row on Canal street.
Canal St west of B'way until Ave of the America's?
yup
QSL twenty years ago...we could go to Unca Dave and price bitch cause G and G charged...... all gone now
Was on my way to work. stopped at OscoDrug to drop some film off. Saw TV say something along the lines of "can't believe this, it's like something out of the movies". I am sure they said "a plane went into a building" and I thought it's probably some stupid stunt. Figured it was nothing interesting so I continued to come to work. Arrived at work, walking down infinite corridor and saw that the TV was on. There was footage of the towers burning. Saw footage of the 2nd plane going into the tower.
I didn't really think anything of it at first, treating it as an ordinary transportation terrorism incident. It was when the towers collapsed that I suddenly realized it's going to be something weird. I saw those towers two days ago. They aren't there anymore.
We were all sent home. Classes were not cancelled here at MIT, but nobody went to them. People sat in the office and just talked, and did relative risk assessment of MIT becoming a target. We decided that the probability was no higher than it was on 09-10. Word came from administration at around 3pm who apologized for not cancelling the classes sooner and called a community event at 5pm. I went to have a look and then went home.
I functioned pretty much normally the remainder of that week, and I was frustrated at people who were totally out of it. For me, the significance and effect of the destruction did not sink in until approximately two weeks later.
AEM7
I've been in this type of situation (but much smaller scale in terms of loss of life) once before. I was working at Hughes Aircraft Co., Space and Communications Group in El Segundo, CA when the space shuttle Challenger blew up. Two of the crew members were colleagues of mine working a couple of buildings over. At least 30,000 employees were sent home at noon. Before that happened, security guards in classified areas turned their backs and allowed television antennas to be rigged up so everyone could watch the TV news.
On that fateful Tuesday, I was in 207th Street Yard preparing my regular work train. I was out in the yard gathering my cars to prepare to run the IRT South of Bowling Green when I got called into the signal quarters where everyone was glued to the TV. I walked out to the 215 platform where I could see haze coming from the towers. I really wasn't as curious as plane crashes happen on regular occasions and I had other things to do so I started going back to the yard to move my train up to the head of the yard when my wife called me on the cell phone and told me the planes hit. I got back to the quarters in time to hear of the Pentagon incident. I was infuriated at first, recalling the 94 bombing and the Beirut American Embassy bombing, the wondered how the hell they got that close to the White House and taking out the pentagon. I lost my cell phone service when the towers came down and my mind shortly after that. I remember the motorman who told me they had just toppled and almost cursed him out. I watched CNN for a half hour before changing the channel over and over again. My best bet at retainiung sanity would have been to smash the TV, instead I cried more tears than I did as a child curling up to the Cartoon Network, I think the only channel not reaming the issue down my throat. The next time my train resumed work schedules, I worked the Jamaica BMT turning at Broad Street. There was so much of a burning smell, it triggered my emotions all over again. All those poor soles, the firemen walking up, my neighbor's orphans
I have firmed up the dates of my Amtrak trip to West Virgina. I'll be leaving NYP on Oct 3, staying over in Washington the night of the 3rd and taking the Capital Limited to Harper's Ferry on the afternoon of the 4th. Returning with no layover Sunday Oct 6.
When I first asked for advice about booking reservations on Amtrak, one poster was kind enough to email me with a discount code, in checking prices, It would have saved me a nice amount. Unfortunately, I didn't have the details of the trip firmed up by the time the code expired.
Would anyone out there possibly have a code they could email email me for use in booking this trip? I'm ready to book today and would be grateful for any assistance.
One other question, the AMTRAK website says they have difficulty booking reservations with some debit cards. I have a Citibank issued MasterCard debit card that I will be using. Does anyone know if I should have a problem using that card? Would going to Penn Station maybe get around this problem?
Again, thanks for any and all help.
Piggo
Amtrak can use any kind of credit card there is - Japan Credit Bureau, Diners Club, MC, VISA, Amex, Carte Blanche (yes, that still exists). If your debit card can be used as a credit card (look for the VISA or MC logo on it) then Amtrak can accept it. It gets processed as a credit transaction, but the money comes out of your checking account.
V529 should give you 20% off the NYP-WAS (and return) portion, if riding in Acela Regional coach. Probably doesn't work on the Capitol Ltd.
What is V529?
An Amtrak promotion code. When checking fares on the Amtrak web site you can enter promotion codes that may give a discount. This particular one is/was advertised in conjunction with a Lincoln Center event in August, but is valid through sometime in December on travel to/from NY on most (non-Acela Express, non-Metroliner) Northeast trains. http://www.amtrak.com/savings/lincoln.html
Nevermind Amtrak to Harper's Ferry. Take the MARC commuter train and only pay $7.25. The trip (Was-HFY) is longer but Amtrak can't beat the cost. Trains leave Washington at 4:55, 5:30, and 6:45. The trip takes about 1:30.
MARC DOESN'T run on the weekends so you'll have to take #30 back to Washington.
MARC's web page (part of the Maryland MTA) is www.mtamaryland.com
Michael
Washington, DC
Having been stuck in Illinois for a week with time to kill, I drove up to Chicago on September 1 to ride the 'L.'
I parked at the foot of the escalator at Clinton on the Green line. I started out walking aimlessly for an hour or so, eventually ending up at Jackson on the Blue. I went downstairs and rode 2973 to the end of the line at Forest Park and back to Grand. (I was hoping to go further, but we encountered delays at Lake and approaching Grand, so I gave up at that point.) I took 3000 back to Washington, where I used the platform connection to the Red line. I took 2616 to Wilson to see the unusual track/platform setup and returned to Fullerton on 2723. At Fullerton, after taking a few photos, I got on Brown 3383 to Clark/Lake, and a two-car Green (I was in 2505) took me back to my car at Clinton.
Now for the comments and questions.
In most stations (Clinton was the one exception I saw, and I take it the rest of the Green line shares the exception), the station agent's booth straddles the fare control barrier, so passengers on either side can ask questions. The agent can also leave the booth to lend assistance and to ask vagrants to go elsewhere. I really wish we had something like that here. The farecard vending machines only take cash and don't give change. I wasn't sure if the turnstiles swallowed empty cards (on the one hand, they couldn't, since they're needed for transfers; on the other, there was virtually none of the card litter that we see all over the NYC system), so I bought a card for $1.55. (Yes, I tried swiping my NYC MetroCard at the card reader, which balked at me.)
How are the automated announcements on the trains triggered? They are less annoying than ours, and they were mostly correct (including transfers), but my outbound Blue train announced the transfer to the Cermak (Douglas) branch, which doesn't run on weekends. I also wonder why, of the four subway systems I've ridden in recent months (NYC, Baltimore, Washington, Chicago), NYC's is the only one where the next stop is routinely announced at each station. On the other systems, it isn't announced until the doors have closed!
Will new car orders have the T/O's position on the left? Most platforms are on the left. (The 3200-series Brown line car I rode did seem to be reversed from the 2600's.)
There is no true railfan window (i.e., a single pane of glass that a passenger can stand or sit at and have an unobstructed view out the front of the train), but there are three windows into the cab. The one on the right, behind the T/O, is blocked by a curtain, and the one in the middle is obstructed by a metal gate-like item, but the one on the left is clear, though tinted. Unfortunately, at least on the 2600's, there's a seat against that window facing the wrong way. After much trial and error, I found that the best view is obtained by claiming that seat and standing in front of it, which elicits stares from the other passengers ("why doesn't he just sit down?").
The four-track elevated line north of the Loop is marred by periodic shifts to the side, which are sharp enough to require trains to slow down. They probably can't be corrected without shaving off the facades of buildings, at least at stations; the 'L' is wedged in tightly.
Two free transfers require use of the card: between the Red line subway and the Loop 'L' at State/Lake, and between the Red and Blue line subways at Jackson (due to construction, only the connection outside fare control was open -- incidentally, why are there connections at all outside fare control here and at Washington?). What all the maps and signs omitted was what the time limit was. Rather than risk losing a fare, I used other transfer points. The Clark/Lake transfer actually passes through the lobbies of adjacent office buildings.
On my way out, I found my only example of card litter: a Reduced Fare Transit Card with a 75-cent balance. I took it as a souvenir. (Hmmm, according to the printing on the back, the initial value was 75 cents. Guess it was never used.) Unlike in NYC, it doesn't have a photograph, a signature, or even a name. Aside from honesty, what's to stop just anyone from using it?
I guess that's about it. I had a good time, even though I didn't get to see as much as I had hoped (I was planning on riding to the north end of the Blue and to the west end of the Green, and of course I would have gone straight to the Douglas branch if it had been running). Thank you to David Cole for giving me leads and for warning me about the weekend closures. There's a chance I'll be back again soon, on a weekday if I can help it.
"incidentally, why are there connections at all outside fare control here and at Washington?)."
1) IIRC, the outside-fare-control, mezzanine to mezzanine, tunnels are original 1940s issue while the platform-to-platform tunnels are newer (the old freight tunnels modified?). I might be wrong on this.
2) The outside-fare-control tunnels are part of the Pedway system, allowing people to travel free, and free of the weather, from City Hall past the two subway stations all the way east to the Randolph Street terminal of Metra (and several buildings inbetween, of course, such as Marshall Field's department store).
3) The platform-to-platform tunnels are not accessible. A person in a wheelchair on one subway platform can use the elevator to get up to the mezzanine, cross by the outside-fare-control tunnel to the other station, and use the elevator to get down to the platform. (Washington on the Blue Line doesn't have an elevator yet, though).
1) Old freight tunnels? Tell me more. I thought all four tunnels opened at once.
2) Good point. Is there a formal Pedway system?
3) Interesting. Is a second fare charged for the transfer done in this fashion? Are there plans to install elevators to the platform-to-platform tunnels?
Incidentally, I think it's somewhat unusual that two subway lines were planned at the same time a block apart. Was any thought given to building a single four-track line under either State or Randolph, or, if four tracks wouldn't fit, maybe of having all northbound trains on State and all southbound trains on Randolph?
"Old freight tunnels? Tell me more. I thought all four tunnels opened at once."
Older people in my family said the platform-to-platform tunnels came later. They're not particularly railfans, and they've been known to be wrong in the past. :^)
As to the freight tunnels, I *AM* sure from written sources that the building of the State and Dearborn subways had to work around the tunnels, which were still working at the time, and the freight tunnels had to be diverted because they were at the same level as the (then) new subways.
"Was any thought given to building a single four-track line under either State or Randolph, or, if four tracks wouldn't fit, maybe of having all northbound trains on State and all southbound trains on Randolph?"
I don't know one way or the other whether a single subway was considered. However, recall that the subways were needed in the first place because all L routes ended up on the Loop; too many trains were forced through a two-track choke-point with (at the time) three busy crossings. They may have wanted two subways for fear of repeating the traffic problem later with multiple routes in a single subway. Considering some of the traffic jams I've seen on the Red Line at rush hour, they made the right decision IMHO.
I agree that a single two-track line would have been insufficient. What I was suggesting was a single four-track line. Capacity would have been the same as it is today, but transferring (of both passengers and trains) would have been easier, and perhaps one of the lines could have run express.
"Aside from honesty, what's to stop just anyone from using it?"
Because, with the exception of free and reduced fares for children, reduced fares are not offered anywhere on RTA (CTA, Metra, or Pace) without having and showing an RTA Reduced Fare Permit, which does have a name, photo, etc. on it. You COULD put a reduced fare card into a turnstile, but you'd run the risk of the station agent seeing you and asking to see your Reduced Fare Permit.
Oops, slight mistake. Metra's discount for military personnel does not require having a Reduced Fare Permit. The person must be in uniform and may be asked to show their military ID, though.
Oh, I see. Anyone can buy an RFTC but a special permit is required to use it. NYCT combines the two functions into a single RFM that serves as both ID and fare media.
Hey, I was there only about a week befor you.
I found it strange that when I went to buy a fare and asked the station agent for "two please" that his reaction was "huhhh????"
Guess when they eliminate the token here that's what will happen here.
The announcements are triggered by the T/O pushing a button on a console unit somewhat hidden from the railfan window. It to the left of the controls near the front window. Also, the buttons are near the door controls on the left side.
I saw the buttons, but how is the exact announcement selected? Why would the same train announce the transfer to the Douglas branch westbound but not eastbound?
The best way to explain it is to compare it to a CD. On a CD, you have a series of songs, each of which is one track. When I was in Chicago, I only rode the Orange Line. At Midway, when the run starts, "track 1" is the "The next stop is Pulaski" announcement. "Track 2" is "This is Pulaski". The tracks continue as the train goes around the loop, so there are two announcements for each station. This way, only relevant announcements are made at each station. The T/O presses NEXT to activate the announcement, at which point the unit sees which announcement is next. They are all named things like PULASKI NEXT or PULASKI. Does this help at all?
So how does the system know whether to announce weekday-only or rush hour-only services? Does the T/O have a variety of programs (CD's, in your analogy) to choose from?
As far as I could tell, no, there is only one set of announcements for each direction per route. No day-sensitive announcements were made if my memory serves correctly.
My Blue train didn't announce the Douglas branch inbound and nothing announced the Purple line downtown.
Hm, can a Chicago SubTalker help here? I was in Chicago over 2 years ago and forget the specifics of the announcements.
Here are some illustrations of railfan windown in Chicago L's before and during the SubTalk Chicago field trip last year.
hey guys. according to a LIRR engineer, he told me at 846 this morning, the ENTIRE LIRR STOPPED ALL TRAIN MOVEMENT. AT 846 ALL TRAINS SOUNDED THEIR HORNS. I think thats a great Railroad style moment of silence
Pretty nice idea that they did that. Unfortunately the Montauk Branch East of Patchogue has replacement buses due to trackwork today, so I didn't hear any horns.
The lIRR will do ANYTHING to have an excuse for blowing their horns.
Ever been around Morris Park at midnight on New Years???
The TA buses and subways also should've done this as well. They said people were pulling over at that time to stop and reflect.
hey guys letting you know the 9 is back on the mta website! i cant wait till i get off 7am this sunday. ima go right thru the loop on the 1
What does this have to do with the 9?
Who even needs the 9? The MTA's concept of skip-stop has never worked, IMO. Toss away the 9 and the Z while you're at it and do all of us passengers a favor, ok MTA?
MTA will do that if a lot of passengers ask it to - it eliminated R service to 179 Street when passengers asked for a one-seat ride on an express train (the F).
If enough passengers think the J/Z skip-dstop service is effective, then that service pattern will stay. In fact, time-wise, it is effective, and riders are using it. It does what it advertises to do, which is to get you into lower Manhattan (as distinguished from Midtown) faster than the E or F can. The E and F remain the preferred service to Midtown.
I don't know how a majority of patrons feel about the 9.
If you don't agree with the service plan, write to MTA and say so.
Write to:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt and Community Affairs
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
Hmm, I was writing that as my opinion.
I wasn't thinking to start an exodus to get rid of 'da 9. Hmm, any idea of how much the postage is?
The last time I checked, it was 37 cents. If you want to save postage, get some of your like-minded buddies to sign the letter too, and then mail it.
Post MTA's reply here when you receive it.
Ron knows what he's talking about. He suggested to me a couple of months back to write to the MTA about the whole F/V service pattern. I also included my suggestions about train routing after the Manhattan B. reopens. Sure enough, I got a response to my letter.
As for the whole J/Z skip-stop thing, I'm not sure if it's working all that well. From what I've seen, it only lasts about an hour and during the evening rush, many people get on the train at Broadway Junction from the A Express. The only good it seems to be doing is to crowd the A.
You did a good thing by writing to them. Tey need tohear from their customers. Good for you.
So how did MTA respond to your letter?
The MTA appreciated my support for their current F/V service pattern. They told me how they're still tinkering with the headways on the E and F to improve service for Queens riders. The MTA went on to say that they're considering extending the V into Brooklyn and perhaps restoring Culver Express service, once the new order of R-143 cars come in. They also stated that they have sent copies of my letter to heads of supervision to make them aware of any future suggestions I write to them. One thing I did notice though was that they did not comment on my other service suggestions once the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens. Oh well...
Why don't you post here your letter and their response?
I'll post my letter and response tomorrow (hopefully). This computer site I'm in now doesn't have disk drives. As for the response, the MTA did say that they're considering extending the V into Brooklyn and restoring Culver Express service once the new orders of R-143's come in and the Stillwell reconstruction is complete (I forgot to mention the latter to Ron). As for my other service suggestions including running the Q to 179 Street, the MTA did not comment. Oh well...
I don't know about the J/Z, but I crunched the numbers a few months ago and concluded that skip-stop on the 1/9 costs the average passenger time. Whoever in the TA makes these decisions either has reached a different conclusion or hasn't analyzed the situation at all. A shame, IMO; the past year was the natural time to make such an analysis.
David,
You know that you and I agree 100% on this issue. Maybe you could forward your analysis to the MTA as per Ron's suggestion. You did an excellent job laying out the facts, so good even the MTA may understand that the 9 is an unmitigated waist of time.
See you on the 9, Piggo!... lol!
Do you really think the 9 is useful for any but a handful of people who live at all-stop stations or do you simply like to include it your handle? David ran the numbers on the effect the 9 has on most customers, it costs them more than it saves. I did a much less detailed analysis and came up with essentially the same results. So I am guessing you just think if makes for a cool handle.
If you have any facts that dispute the analysis that David did, I'd be very interested in seeing them.
Dear Fellow 238th Passenger,
The handle has been around LONG before any "analysis".
I just know that there were days (pre-1989) that I used
to d-r-e-a-d taking the 1 line for it seemingly took
AGES to just get INTO 96th Street.. for an EXPRESS
which would then get-you-where-you-are-going-QUICKER!!...
So, needless to say when the 9 came along, it SPEEDED UP
the North Bronx commute.. & I was/am in favor of it.
Honestly, in December 1989, even I furled my eyebrows
and stated, "What's the point of having a 9?"...
However, since then, I've gleefully converted.
And coming from 225th (a 9 station), I became fond of it.
8 out of 10 times, it's been the first train to pull
in upon my getting to (any) station (which meant instant
service and no waiting time!).. Isn't THAT what the MTA
aims for??... With the 9, they accomplish just that
"in my personal experience".. It's unfortunate Piggo,
you (from 238th) haven't had similar experiences..
With respect to yours and David's analysis... there
are those in this world who will vouch for you,
and yet there are those who will not see the light
of your ways... regardless of how many times you
spoonfeed your theories onto their Internet Explorer.
I'm sorry I just happen to be one of the 'benefitees' of the 9.
Respectfully,
How much travel time do you think skip-stop saves?
How much time do you think you lose on average by having only half the trains stop for you?
..and another factoid:
I knew FULL WELL that we would be communicating
on the heels of the 9's return (knowing you were
once in opposition of it)...
I threw in the "See you on the 9, Piggo!" line
as a pun-humoristic way to attempt to lighten the
mood... I may come off as one of those few
"happy go lucky" people around... but, as with
anything, I believe in having OPTIMISM...
Who knows... things might be different for the 9
this time around... ::GASP::!! Maybe Cousin Livonia
will let us keep a few WINDOW-equipped cars on the 1/9??
Maybe we'll make use of that center track afterall!
Optimistically,
You mention the Livonia cars, when they came to the 1 line after 9/11, werent't they all singles???? I have noticed that a good number of blue striped Livonia cars are now in 5 car train sets with no more rail fan window. Did that happend during their stay at 240 Steet yard? Too bad if it did. It's always sad to see railfan windows disappear; I'n not a zealot who thinks the redbirds should stay and the R142s scrapped over the railfan window, but I'm pleasently surprized to get a railfan window.
It's still obtainable... Funny, I get a Livonia window
each time I go lookin for one... even tonight...
No more on the 1. Every Livonia train that came into 242nd tonight was sent out light.
Even before 9/11, some Livonia cars were in five-car sets with transverse cabs.
I agree with this post.
Same thing on the New Lots end with 240th cars.
Those Livonia cars were former Pelham cars and has earned their blue stripes.
Those 5 car Livonia sets were former Pelham cars and has earned their blue stripes.
I'm glad you have had postive experiences with the 9. But you mention that I was "once in opposition to it". I STILL AM VERY MUCH AGAINST IT. And for the record, you most likely will not see me on the 9, unless it is getting off at 231 to wait for the 1. I usually take the 9 if it comes (when I'm heading home) because you never know when they will decide to make any given train an all stop. The way they run the 1 line can make a person scratch his or her head. Trains skip stops on any portion of the line at any time with little or no warning. A few weeks ago, we are heading up town on a crowded 1, their was a long wait for this train, so something happened to delay service. I board at 137, the train is making all stops. We get to Dyckman and the C/R announces, "The next stop will be 238 then Van Cortland". I assume he means 231, then Van Cortland. I stay on figuring I'll get off at 231 and walk. But no, the train does run express to 238. Now that was great for me, but why would you skip a stop that is a transfer point to at least 5 bus lines to make a stop that is a transfer to only one bus line (Bx3)?
I can also go on forever about the problems getting trains turned at VCP. At night, you never know if you will be backuped from 207 Street north. When you pass 207, the between station delays can start at any point. Why is there such a problem at that terminal? And can't someone figure out some solutions? On many nights, I have gotten off at 231 and walked the 7 or so blocks to my apartment. Most times, I get home to look out my window and see the train I had been on waiting to get into 238 St Station. Amazing!
You are correct that when the cards do fall into place and I get a 1 immediately, for that moment I am pleased with that situation. But when I'm here at my computer and looking at things logically; most people lose more time than they save with this skip stop.
Skip stop does cost a passenger time, where a passenger who needs to get off one train to wait for another, but does it actually save a passenger time? Meaningful TIME? Current rules and regulations mandate a train operator to enter a station at maximum authorized speed, but must slow down to 15 MPH at the leaving end. From this point, lets start the stopwatches of thought. If from this 15 MPH, you were to make the station stop, give or take 5 seconds for the 2 to 2.3 MPHPS decelleration, pointing of the boards, and door sequencing for the 10 second minimum before the closing of the door sections, how many seconds are elapsed before the train is at 15 MPH again while aiming for it's next stop? I came out with 30 to 38 seconds per station using combinations of slower braking T/Os and fast C/Rs and little less than 30 seconds for fast crews. My opinion is they should stick with ONE line, unless they see a need for an express, which they never will since there are too many priority stops skipped by the middle track, and call it a day. I think skip-stop is a gimmick for the appearance of "on-time" performance. They added 5 minutes to running time during peak hours of operation to most of the lines, so if the A train can be on time during rush hours, than so can the 9 which is running fewer stops for the same cushion.
with no railfan window equipped R-62s ??
like it was before 9-11-01 ........??
The 9's only listed on service advisories at this point. It's not on schedule information yet.
Interesting alert on the MTA web site
Due to high winds causing signal problems, the LIRR is experiencing 10-to-15 minute delays eastbound systemwide. There are scattered 20-to-30 minute delays westbound.
OH THIS IS BAD! I GOTTA CATCH THE 852 to NY cause i work overnight at Grand Central today! wish me luck yall!
There were some trees down in Southern Westchester County where I live today because of the high winds. I'm sure that the signal problems on the LIRR today were a result of tress and tree limbs bringing down power lines.
#3 West End Jeff
Not suprising! I've lost my electricity 4 times for short periods through-out the day.
Heard on the scanner that crossing gates were malfunctioning all across the main line. I guess the high winds are causing some power interruptions. LIRR really should bury it's motive and signal power supply.
Around my neck of the woods there were some outages in Glen Head, as well as some momentary outages when I was in Greenvale.
I got the 5:22 to Ronkonkoma, having heard the delay announcements at Penn, but to my mild surprise it was on time.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf_f/38_nrco.pdf
in addition to notices regarding the 1/9. Interestingly, the 1/9 notice was posted in both the subway and LIRR service webpages.
thanx for 'da info...
You're welcome.
I'm confused. Wasn't Cortlandt opened this past Sunday, along with the BMT service changes?
No. I went past it three times (actually four, but not operating for one) on Monday.
why???
59th Street Station has been closed due to damage and injury from falling debris off the AOL Time Warner building construction area.
There are service advisories now online at www.mta.info.
Do you check the MTA website for these advisories? The website is pretty handy. Also, note that LIRR and Metro-North are experiencing problems, including service suspension on the New Canaan branch of the New Haven Line.
Wow ... hadn't heard BOO about this. What happened? Any articles on it? (not the advisory, but what kinda damage occurred and how)
Check out the NY Times on line. Pieces of wood coming off the site injured one man critically.
When did this happen? Today?
Yes
Times won't have it until 3am then ... will check it out when they replace the pages. Glad the 70th anniversary of the IND opening wasn't marred by the event.
"YOU'VE GOT WOOD" ... sheesh. :)
The winds are blowing over trees on some streets here in eastern Queens, and the cops and firefighters are out cutting and sawing.
The 59th St. station must be getting some really big gusts.
Stay safe out there.
Yeah, just saw footage on Fox5 on satellite. A SMALL amount of junk fell off the scaffolding. I was getting the impression that huge planks had been dropping through the pavement or something. Just precautionary because things were falling off the building. They closed the block around there, no risk to folks underground. That was more my concern ...
Up here in the sticks, we've been doing pretty steady 15-25 with gusts to 45. Other than the trees creaking, not much to report up here as far as the wind goes. It's breezy up here normally. Of course we don't get the "canyon effect" either.
"we've been doing pretty steady 15-25 with gusts to 45. "
A mere breeze!
Elias
Yep ... means I don't have to go out and sweep the deck. :)
While taking the train home this evening, I saw a large tree down in New Hyde Park just north of the LIRR station. It didn't seem to affect service, although some downed wires were plainly visible.
Man AOL can't get anything right. :-0
(sorry but I know everyone needs a laugh!)
AOL does not own the building and is not constructiong the building
Did you hear the the Colgate-Palmolive building was designed without elevators.
They put you in a tube, and squeezed you up!
Sorry, I guess that *was* an old one.
: ) Elias
Rim shot!
The announcement at Jay Street, repeated several times between 3:05PM and 3:09PM, stated that the A, B, C, D, E, #1, and #9 were bypassing 59th Street. I can understand jumping the gun by a few days with respect to the #9, but when did the E ever stop there?
And the 2 is stopping there?
Seriously -- if the only issue is that it's unsafe to exit, trains should continue to stop there. It's an indispensable transfer point, both between trunks and between IND locals and expresses. I'm sure the elevators at 168th are getting a workout. Hopefully some 2 or 3 trains are being diverted to Dyckman and some B or D trains are being diverted to 168th to accomodate the load.
Damn I hope AOL doesnt crash anytime soon.
I've brought this up hefore but now I have a comparison. I just got back from London and don't really want to go into a complete explanation but you can look at a London tube map to try to follow along.
I understand that the NYC subway in certain respects is miles ahead of London; in others it is far behind. London has those boards in all central stations telling just how long till the next 2 or 3 trains. I understand this is not something NY can do overnight.
But sometimes there are things that can be done. Case in point, I was waiting for a London Underground train at Bayswater and a District line train came in. The PA announcer suggested to passengers bound for Victoria or Tower Hill to take this train and change at Earls Court as the next circle line train is not due for 8 minutes. The same annoucement was made at the next stop Notting Hill Gate and the stop after that High Street Kensington.
Now compare that with New York. The other night I was at Jay Street bound for Broadway East NY to switch to the L train. In comes a C train....now what do I do as there are 7 local stops between Jay Street and Broadway East NY...do I take the C train or is there an A train directly behind. There is some sort of dispatcher at Jay Street as often times he announces there is a Queensbound train at whatever 1 stop away. So there is a board telling him if there is a next train 1 or 2 stops away. Why can't he manke an annoucement that the next A train is right behind and passengers bound for express stops to Eurclid should wait for it or announce there will be no A service for the next 8 or 10 minutes and passengers should take the C train.
Now again some regulrs might chastise me for bringing this up again but I simply don't understand why information such as this is not made available to passengers when it is available.
Sincerely....
You have to realize this stuff is completely random and the T/O's and C/R's have to do all of the manuevering and usually it's already dealth with by the time the info is properly available. Is that what you're going at?
You have to realize this stuff is completely random...
Trains are not supposed to operate at random. It is a tribute to the abilities of the schedule planners, the dispatchers and the train operators that train operation appears to be random.
There, you say it's not supposed to be random, but it is...
So many problems/situations can arrive from such a system. Even with all of the schedules and dispatchers and operators, there will always stuff to arrive.
You're right.
The TA needs an information system which will tell it what trains are where and enable it to post announcements. For example, the LIRR at Bayside will announce that the next inbound train was reported at _____ operating on schedule or five minutes late, or whatever.
What I would favor is a central command center with every mile of track reporting to it - sort of like what was portrayed in the original movie The Taking of Pelham-1-2-3, only using 2002 technology. The movie's portrayal of that center was bogus, of course. There is no such thing in NY today; only local control towers handling a few sections of track each. This would allow for that sort of thing. But it's expensive.
I thought there are two Master Control Centers - one for the IRT, the other for the BMT/IND, so that the location of all trains can be seen from a single central location. But getting back to the original question, the dispatcher at Jay St, while seeing how far behind the next train is, may not be able to determine its identity. Sometimes, 2 C's run in a row, or 2 A's.
"I thought there are two Master Control Centers - one for the IRT, the other for the BMT/IND"
I don't think there is any "Master Control Center" at all. There are centers where train operators can call controllers by radio, but there is no master track map or database showing where all the trains are, and that is what you need.
No, what you need is a way of carrying around the identity of a train as it moves around the map. Existing boards can't do that. The A and C share trackage from Canal to Hoyt, so the tower at Jay has no way of knowing if an approaching train is an A or a C or a rerouted F or a work train or something else entirely. That's also why annunciators often give vague information ("express" vs. "local" rather than actual line numbers and letters) and get fooled by light trains and anything that switches tracks.
My understanding is that the TA does have plans to implement a train tracking system to enable this sort of announcement. I don't know what the time frame is. Until then, take advantage of the posted timetables an get an idea of how much time is saved by the expresses you often ride and how often they run. If, say, the A saves three minutes to Broadway Junction and runs every six minutes (I made up those numbers), and you get to the station as a C arrives, the next A is probably about three minutes away, so your expected time of arrival at BJ is the same either way. What would I do? If there are seats on the C, I'd definitely take it. If not, but the platform is uncomfortably hot, I'd still take it. Basically, since time isn't a factor, I'd do whatever would maximize my comfort.
The announcer is actually a conductor (sometimes T/O's are used) that is used for station announcing purposes only. In regards to identifying trains, the TA is not that far advanced yet. When an announcer sees a red light on the track board, he/she makes the announcement that a train is approaching.
If you listen closely, the announcer will say "A Queens-bound train is approaching" or "A Brooklyn-bound express train is approaching" for tracks where more than one line operates. There isn't a way at most gap points to identify the line designation of an oncoming train.
Dang! And back in the happy days when marker lights were doomed, there was this HUGE pastel-colored letter on the offside that you could see down the rails from THREE stations away. Progress, I s'pose. :)
Bring back the green/red!
I understand all that. For the most part my assumption when a C train comes in is that there is an A train relatively close behind. Remember we're talking 10 PM at night....going back to looking at the example I gave, at the very least if there is no train within the next few stations on the board, the dispatcher could announce like the one did in London, passengers for Utica, Broadway Junction and Euclid are advised to take this train as no other service is due for at least 8 minutes. That information is certainly available in the dispatcher's office and would be very helpful.
Remember there are about 8 local stations between Jay Street and Broadway Junction which means the difference is time for the local vs. the express can be as much as 10 minutes...
"For the most part my assumption when a C train comes in is that there is an A train relatively close behind. Remember we're talking 10 PM at night...."
It would be nice if they could announce when the next train is coming, since it's likely to be an A. But what would they say? "There is another train in 3 minutes and it's probably an express." ? Until they have the technology to say what type of train it is, an announcement is going to be very unsatisfying to most people.
"Remember there are about 8 local stations between Jay Street and Broadway Junction which means the difference is time for the local vs. the express can be as much as 10 minutes..."
At any time other than rush hour I would just take the local. The difference is NOT 10 minutes. According to the published schedule, the express takes 13 minutes and the local takes 16.
I believe that Jay St Dispatcher is only capable of seeing to High St on the A/C. Since that is less than three minutes away from Jay St, he doesn't have enough warning for the info you desire.
My rule of thumb is about 30 seconds per local stop. The A can't be 10 minutes faster than the C from Jay to BJ, since the entire express run on the A from 168th to Euclid only saves about 10 minutes over the C.
Expresses don't save as much time as the average subway rider thinks they do. Why do you think nobody at Roosevelt wants to take the V?
With the new 9/8 service in place, I've been looking for an F or Q schedule. However, yesterday I noticed that the Fs were leaving 179 at the same time as usual, and the Qs were leaving 57th at the same time as usual. Are all trains running on the same exact schedule? I would think not since one of the terminals on each line is different.
Why does this bother you? What does the F have to do with the Q, and why do you think this has any significance?
Umm... where do you see an implication that he was associating the F with the Q?
He was considering the schedules together in the same post. Do you need that spelled out any more clearly?
He was looking for the new schedules for the F and for the Q. The F and Q had service changes on Sunday.
Oh, so next time I wonder about a schedule change that occurred in the same system, on the same day, for the same or similar reason, I should make two separate posts? Ok then.
I was just wondering what was significant about that...
I don't see the big deal either, I personally couldn't give a rat's ass about most NYCT Subway and Local Bus schedules unless there are some sort of limited service runs, and haven't even picked up most of 'em since they got rid of those neat travel time charts.
Sorry to pick at this, I've just been bored lately in the transit area so I start clicking on threads I'd ordinarily pass and suddenly have an opinion.
Presumably, all trip times north of Avenue X and Brighton Beach are the same as before. The time that would have been spent in service south of those points is replaced with relays, additional layover, and the like.
Well I watched TV and saw the somber ceremonies reading out the names of the people who died in the WTC. It was quite sad, and brought a few tears to my eyes.
By noon I decided that was enough TV coverage. I've seen enough pictures of the towers burning, collapsing and people crying over and over again.
There is one Sept.11th program tonight I will watch. It is on channel 25 (WNYE) and it's called NYCT response to Sept.11th. Hopefully they will go into detail on what the subways and buses were like that day, a topic the media has more or less, ignored.
We also must remember to give thanks to our TA and PATH workers that day, helping to evacuate the area and save lives. And also to the fast work of getting our subways back to normal.
Amen to that. A very nice post.
Ahh! What time is that thing on 25??
Oh I'm sorry if I forgot to mention the time, it is at 9pm.
Got over an hour to rig up a better 'bowtie' and a preamp.
Thank you, John. We hear so much about the heroic acts above ground, people forget about what went on below ground. There was not one report of a TA personnel abandoning their post (except for the stricken stations, of course). Hundreds of TA workers joined in the early rescue efforts that morning. Most importantly, just a few hours after the attack, when the TA was struggling to restore service, not one employee refused to man his or her train, tower or station. When the signals turned green, the trains rolled. (So did the busses)
"When the signals turned green, the trains rolled. (So did the busses)"
Thank YOU, Stave and THANK YOU, MTA. Your efforts are critical to healing America.
John J. Blair
Syracuse, NY
Speaking for the MTA as a station agent:
We were just doing out jobs.
So maybe you just think you were just doing your job and adverse conditions were in the background.....but let me tell you that just 'doing your job' means some conciousness where others just 'slack off.' I was apalled at 911 participation on the shop floor for a moment of silence. I'll just withold comments of anger. CI peter
And Maintenance of Way was among the first responders to the scene with equipment. Naturally, that never got any mention either, nor did the fact that they were turned away when they were ready to pitch in. Wish I could see the show up here.
I must say I saw a very nice article in Mass transit Magazine a month later describing the heroic effortsof the MTA NYCTA workers in rescue and recovery
You have DirecTV.
"Move" to New York City.
I have real direct TV...transmitter to antennae to air to my antennae to TV set to front end to I.F. to video. Free but stinks.
I have real direct TV...transmitter to antennae to air to my antennae to TV set to front end to I.F. to video. Free but stinks.
Well, the satellite-version DirecTV isn't free, at about 40 bucks per month, but you do get to see plenty of Tanya Memme.
Ain't a bad deal, I'd say!
Yowzah, she is a righnteous looking mademoiselle.
Nice! Tanya Memme can check out my propulsion anyday.
And she's on channel 201 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. You can ALWAYS get a dose whenever you need it. :)
Heh. Wish I could but they've got the Zip code already. All I get up here because the locals aren't on it is east and west coast CBS, NBC, ABC and FOZZ plus two PBS feeds direct from DC. I'm SOL for anything else. If I "moved" then I'd have NYC local and would lose the west coast network affiliates. Sometimes life's better away from town. :)
I have NBC West coast because they never responded to my request for waivers.
The other 3 rejected my request.
Thank you, John. We hear so much about the heroic acts above ground, people forget about what went on below ground. There was not one report of a TA personnel abandoning their post (except for the stricken stations, of course). Hundreds of TA workers joined in the early rescue efforts that morning. Most importantly, just a few hours after the attack, when the TA was struggling to restore service, not one employee refused to man his or her train, tower or station. When the signals turned green, the trains rolled. (So did the busses)
And there also were the actions of PATH workers in getting the WTC station safely evacuated. It's really a shame that they've gotten very little recognition.
You can tell how slanted the news is and what they don't cover. Not only was the transit system never said boo about, the great resecue of 1000's by water craft from lower Manhattan as well.
(I'm biased, I have a cousin who is a deckhand on the S.I. Ferry)
Not just the Ferry but private craft as well as Police and Fire boats.
I receive 'real television,' off the air with a mix of indoor antennae and IF I CAN CATCH IT, I will tape it from WNYE channel 25.
Today, September 11th, I was ashamed of the behavior of many Car Inspectors and Vendors after the first announcement of a moment of silence by the 239th shop steward....and I had given him the SubTalk printout about AmTrack and horns as a reminder just the other day. It seems that everyone just kept on doing what they were doing. I was on my way to the Supply Counter checking the time when I decided to SHUT DOWN some R142 systems to obtain QUIET. One horn blew for a very long time...then silence. The MS at the Car Desk announced that ALL POWER SYSTEMS are going to be shut down and then announced for us to stop and observe a period of silence. Needless to say that certain Car Inspectors just kept on with their work despite lack of 600 VDC power. I was at a distance from my troubles track/ trainset along with a supervisor I have great respect for. Sometimes, the noise level is excessive and R142 insulation prevents you from hearing announcements...when the power was dumped, I know my crew did what was right. CI peter
I'd say that you or your sup should cite the insubordinate CIs for not following what was to be policy regarding the moment of silence.
At least they could have shown proper respect. If I wuz you, I'd bitch slap 'em, and then send 'em home w/o pay.
But that's just me 'n my .5 cents.
My friend: your five cents is worth five million dollars. It was a very hard morning for me...standing by myself...alone...in tears. I work for no team sup...I report to the days general line sup or the Deputy Superintendent. The one sup I have the most respect for stood thirty feet away from me holding his helmet over his heart. It was 239th CIs and Bombardier Vendors that I saw. I picked the hardest work...troubles/backfill with the 180th street crew. I'll stay on the next pick unless the seniority thing blows up and I'll switch over to 'The lord of Discipline....unca Steve.' The line sups were not in sight and the yard Superintendent was not in observation of activities. TA is mixed bag...somehow things like this are not of importance considering varied ethnic backgrounds.
May the Grace of the Lord Bless the Souls lost on September 11th.
May the Grace of the Lord heal wounds of the survivors.
May the Grace of the Lord return the unemployed to gainful employment.
May the Grace of the Lord put our city back together.
May the Grace of the Lord grant us all Peace.
For these things I do truly commit myself to and pray for.
Car Inspector Peter Murricane, NYCTA Car Equipment Department
Amen. Thanks for sticking to the important things.
I got drunks partying tonight here in Sea Cliff. The noise is most unwelcome on this somber night.
>>> I'd say that you or your sup should cite the insubordinate CIs for not following what was to be policy regarding the moment of silence. <<<
That will be the day; when management disciplines employees for continuing to work when they could have stopped working and still collected their pay.
Tom
You cannot force people to observe "moments of silence" it is a personal decision to participate or not. My company made this crystal clear on the memos given to us.
Peace,
ANDEE
And some of us had to deal with it directly back then. Many are still in denial or avoidance and probably needed this event. Others who have already coped with it avoided it like the plague. I'm one of the latter.
I think the New York City "ceremonies" were QUITE dignified. The Pentagon and Pennsylvania ceremonies offended me. And I won't even go into my absolute disgust for the media. But to each their own. Only question remaining is when we as a SOCIETY get beyond this, whoop the proper butts, stop whooping on one another and demonstrate that we will not allow the bastards to frighten us or ruin the economy. It's really time to get on with it, or take a few extra days for those who haven't as yet, DEAL with it.
Don't mind me, words cannot describe how honked off I am at the media and the hype. I don't see how any of it helped anyone. And for those who still haven't come to terms with their own emotions and guilt about it all, it's REALLY time to take advantage of the wonderful souls offering counseling. They've got time for the remaining walking wounded now, we can't keep walking in circles much longer.
>>> Don't mind me, words cannot describe how honked off I am at the media and the hype. I don't see how any of it helped anyone. <<<
I fully understand your disgust with the media. But it is cheap programming and brings in high ratings. I saw glimpses of what was on the air at various places with TV sets during the day, but did not watch any of it. I know ABC was bragging that they suspended regular programing for the whole day to cover the various observances, and even local TV stations which normally re run 20 year old sitcoms had special programming.
To me it was the worst media excess since the death of John Kennedy when regular programming was suspended for four days. At least then they also suspended commercials for that time. Were commercials suspended during the coverage of the 9/11 observances?
Tom
I've brought this up hefore but now I have a comparison. I just got back from London and don't really want to go into a complete explanation but you can look at a London tube map to try to follow along.
I understand that the NYC subway in certain respects is miles ahead of London; in others it is far behind. London has those boards in all central stations telling just how long till the next 2 or 3 trains. I understand this is not something NY can do overnight.
But sometimes there are things that can be done. Case in point, I was waiting for a London Underground train at Bayswater and a District line train came in. The PA announcer suggested to passengers bound for Victoria or Tower Hill to take this train and change at Earls Court as the next circle line train is not due for 8 minutes. The same annoucement was made at the next stop Notting Hill Gate and the stop after that High Street Kensington.
Now compare that with New York. The other night I was at Jay Street bound for Broadway East NY to switch to the L train. In comes a C train....now what do I do as there are 7 local stops between Jay Street and Broadway East NY...do I take the C train or is there an A train directly behind. There is some sort of dispatcher at Jay Street as often times he announces there is a Queensbound train at whatever 1 stop away. So there is a board telling him if there is a next train 1 or 2 stops away. Why can't he manke an annoucement that the next A train is right behind and passengers bound for express stops to Eurclid should wait for it or announce there will be no A service for the next 8 or 10 minutes and passengers should take the C train.
Now again some regulrs might chastise me for bringing this up again but I simply don't understand why information such as this is not made available to passengers when it is available.
Sincerely....
What is going on under the Kingsbridge road station on the ( IRT?) #4 train station. This has been going on since June and all I see is tarp and big trucks, and LOUD noise. Anyone who knows or might want to take a guess please respond.
Perhaps removal of lead paint by sandblasting.
Bill "Newkirk"
Or maybe the pigeon poop! :o>
wayne
Held the fighter jets since yesterday afternoon. Just a half hour ago I saw them in formation flying eastward over central Brooklyn.
Hearing them here on LI as well. They have a very distinct thunderous sound.
Just a correction. This evening the fighters you saw were F-18's of the Blue Angels who were doing flyovers for the President's speech at Ellis Island, as well as the ceremonies at Yankee Stadium.
Thanks, I knew they were an F-something...just didn't know which ones ;-)
F-something is correct. F-worthless in a tactical situation. Better to have a reliable Springfield 1903A3 in your hand with a 'box of bullets' than expecting F116 or F118 aircraft bailing your sorry ass out of a situation. Safer in the street than a high rise...even safer in the subvway. CI Peter
So do we get a flyover for a MTES game? Of course not. F***ing Steingrabber ...
Have you looked at the NL standings recently? Nobody would want to bomb the Mets, they've already bombed themselves.
Well ... Mets fans can deal with that. :)
But an aerial strike on Steingrabber and the Bronx Bombers DOES have some interesting connotations. Heh. I grew up in the Bronx, that's WHY I'm a Mets fan.
Here in Kensington, Brooklyn, they're circling around, seems that my house is the center of the circle =X...
They're coming for you!!!
Actually, you're the x in the middle of the giant figure-eight that they're making as their patrol pattern.
They were all over Staten Island this afternoon.
I saw 3 Jet Fighters over my area this morning.
-AcelaExpress2005
I think it was F-15's.
-AcelaExpress2005
F-18's, I saw them while driving in Brooklyn. You can tell the difference by the twin tales. F-15 has twin tales which are vertical whole F-18 twin tales are on an angle. In addition I saw them close and they were the Blue Angels, who only fly F-18's.
This is not entirely true, The US NAVY Blue Angels also have a C-130 Herculies that has rear solid rocket boosters in the back which acts as a "fifth engine" on take-off only, making it a STO (short take off ) capable aircraft. Obviously it wasnt used today.
"solid rocket boosters in the back which acts as a "fifth engine" on take-off only, making it a STO (short take off ) capable aircraft."
Those are JATO units JATO= Jet Assisted Take Off. I know they are rockets, not jets, but that's what USAF calls them.
i was hoping you were going 2 post that the R-16s were in patrol of
the subway !! .......................lol
woops no such thing as a r-16 .............lol !!
Indeed there WAS! And one of them is patrolling the transit museum.
See?
And another one is alive and well in Kingston at the TMNY museum. BMT "redbirds" ...
Oh well, when I saw the 6000's name plate on that photo start to load I was thinking, cute it's going to be a R16 with "F" route on it. Oh well it was an "A". Would have been cute as an "F"-16.
If you've got the time to burn, I'd bet there might be one. Though the 16's were RARELY seen on the F ... sorry to disappoint. :)
Salaam managed to get hung up on "R-16's" although if you really consider it, dropping deadbirds on the Taliban would probably have done QUITE a bit of damage. Heh.
Yeah, they should have dropped the redbirds from planes over Afghanistan. Well actually it wouldn't be the first time the "subway system" was used in war. I believe the Blue Hornet and some of the Manhattan els were shot at the Nazis and Japan during WWII.
Or was it the Green Hornet.....
The SHADOW knows ... heh. ANd that's urban legend just like the 6th and ninth avenue el stories ... but makes for good reading I 'spose ...
What 6 an 9 Ave El stories?
Oh, that the steel from the demolition of the elevateds was sold as scrap to Japan and they dropped the elevateds back on us as bombs. Reality is the scrap DID get converted by Bethlehem steel back into the PENTAGON. But urban legends are better than reality somehow.
Does the TA know why people look over the edge of the platform into the tunnel? Of course they do. Now, instead of installing signs which say useless information, like " Please step away from the edge of the platform" , how about installing signs which tell you if a train is approaching ( leaving the next station). Is this some incredible idea which the TA cannot fathom? The TA knows people look over the edge, and why they do it, so how about doing something that eliminates the need for them to do it?
End of RANT. Anyone with any ideas???
P.S. What exactly is trolling?
Why don't they just put electronic signs saying approx. how long until the next train is comes. They have signs like these in the Willets Pt. station on the Flushing line. Why can't these approx. arrival signs be put on other stations/lines too?
Where at Willets Point do they have these? I have never seen them.
I think as part of the CBTC installation, they will install a system to report next train times. Expect to see it in full in approximately 20 years or so (if I remember the timeline correctly). Don't worry, even if my estimate is off, I am sure we will see it before we see the 2nd Avenue Subway. :-)
It'll be sooner than that and is not dependent on CBTC.
David
There is a solution that could be instituted immediately at very little cost. It is used in Tokyo.
First, have schedules painted on boards displayed along the platform. These schedules show the arrival time down to the 1/2 minute. Second, adhere to the schedules.
Normally I avoid these, but for once a little "twist" ... gives me a chance to whine about the deprication of transit professionals with silly rituals AND a chance to throw it back in a few faces "upstairs." I rarely pass on THESE opportunities. :)
OK ... so we have this stupid ritual where conductors have to give the zebras the finger. And I've enjoyed the various adaptations when I came down to visit, waiting for "conductor Dave" to show up at the designated time coordinates, so I stood on the platform observing dozens of conductors dropping sash, and waving their chosen finger (always professional, no names will be named) in a circle at the platform itself rather than at the board. I'm sure this adds a good second and change to dwell time at each stop that wasn't there before the ritual was instituted, but I'm not a professional "efficiency expert" so I digress.
So here I am looking at this silly ritual and wondering why that was the ONLY thing adopted from Japan Rail. In Japan, MURDER CASES are based on when someone gets on or off a train because the trains are ALWAYS on time. To the sweep second! Funny how conductors are forced to salute a hunk of wood while management is not required to salute the CLOCK. Hmmmm ...
Like I said, I live for these little ditties. (insert Twilight Zone score here)
I knew those trigger boxes were good for something.:)
Yeah, but the trigger boxes don't actually have *FIRING PINS* ... otherwise, they'd be useful. Heh.
(after ten times fighting with the Netscape spell checker that INSISTS that FIRING PINS should be BOWLING PINS ... aggggh. WHAT A PIECE OF CRAP!
No, that sounds like the Canadian spelling to me!! :)
-Robert King
It's on the Flushing bound platform, near the middle of the platform. It gives estimated arrival times for both local and express trains.
If you're talking about those signs hooked onto the roofs of the platforms. I have never seen them give estimated arrival times. All they do is display the time and date and maybe onther info, but never arrival times.
Over the summer I went to a few mets games. Every time I was there the sign showed estimated arrival times.
Well..I'll take your word for it, but I fail to see why such information would be allowed on the 7 of all lines, but lacking in the rest of the system.
"Well..I'll take your word for it, but I fail to see why such information would be allowed on the 7 of all lines, but lacking in the rest of the system."
It's lacking in the rest of the system because it takes money to install it.
Gotta try it out somewhere.
Because it is a test project on the 7 line. The 7 and L lines are ideal for test projects because they don't mix with any other line.
I should have known that...Geez, my brain is dead!
Stick the ADA or Rehab act on them. Hearing impaired people can't hear the train coming, so a look down the track is the next best thing.
Cause I ain't gonna LOOK at the sign, I'm going to lean over and look down the tunnel! I've always done it that way, and you're stupid sign can't make me do different!
Elias : )-
It would make sesnse the have signs that indicate approximately how many minutes until a train arrives at a particular station.
#3 West End Jeff
Washington Metrorail has lights embedded into the warning strip on the platform edge. They start blinking on and off as a train approaches.
Actually, I seem to remember eons ago they pulsed very slowly all the time, and got brighter as a train approached...
They're supposed to stay on but dim when there's no train, and then start alternating between dim and bright as a train approaches. Of course, now they've got real-time train arrival screens in addition to the platform lights.
Using quite a few subway systems in the world makes NYC's system feel hopelessly obsolete. But at least it's big and complicated. =)
At 34th St. 8th Ave station you'll hear a very clear announcement like, "There is an uptown local train approaching 34th Street"
Immediately, 1/2 of the people will peer over the platform edge to see if the announcement is for real or just another MTA practical joke.
Maybe they want to see if it's a C or an E (not that they'd be able to tell until the train's in the station unless it's an unlikely R-46 E train).
Or an even more unlikely R44 "C" train! :o)
wayne
[At 34th St. 8th Ave station you'll hear a very clear announcement like, "There is an uptown local train approaching 34th Street"]
I'm accustomed to hearing similar announcements, such as "There is a Queens-bound F train entering 34th Street, two stations away" while at 47th/50th. That lets me know that there's plenty of time to walk -at a safe and moderate pace, of course - to the car I need.
hey for once I get to praise BART, in recent months they have implemented software with both signs and PA announcing next trains within one headway per destination.
>>> I get to praise BART, in recent months they have implemented software with both signs and PA announcing next trains within one headway per destination. <<<
I agree it is a great system which not only tells how soon the next train will arrive, but what its destination is also. No need to lean over the edge of the platform to look for a train, or even look for signs on the train when it pulls into the station because you already know if this is your train or not.
Tom
London Underground, in many stations, have signs that indicate when the next train's arrival is imminent and where it's ultimate destination will be. Some of these signs are electronic LED dot matrix displays, while others arent (this is not a problem despite the preceived obsolecense). I don't know how their systems work, so if someone can provide a technical explanation of what's in use on the London Underground I'm quite interested, but what happens from a passenger perspective is this:
In the case of an LED dot matrix sign:
Among the other information rotated through on the display, there is a listing (if it works, and this part wasn't on the Central line for much of the time I was there) of the next three trains or so in chronological order based on their anticipated arrival times, showing their destinations. When the first train gets close to the platform, it's dropped off the bottom of the display and replaced with a 'Train Approaching' notice.
In the case of an older sign:
All the destinations on that trains on that given platform can go to are listed with an column of arrows beside each list, pointing to each destination. When a train gets close or arrives, lights behind the arrow pointing to the destination of the train come on.
In Toronto, we used to use identra coils. To a very limited extent, they are still in use. A detector would be mounted just up from the station and a ring would be mounted on the end cars of the train using the little slot provided. There's a little knob on the ring attachment that can be turned with the standard TTC 'square' key so that the little knob points at different lettered selections arranged around it in a circle, and each entry corresponded to a different entry programmed into the display. When the rings are installed and the knobs set correctly, the ring on the leading car would pass by right next to the detector plate which would somehow detect the setting on the ring (unsure about exactly how this was accomplished) and display the corresponding preprogrammed selection on the boxes in the stations which would also make a pleasant Ding! sound as soon as the display came up. The station displays are a combination of Rolodex style flipping signs (now unused and frozen on the current destinations), flipping dot matrix boards (mostly unused and very flakey where in operation) and retrofitted LED dot matrixes inside a few of the former Rolodex boxes. This system would show the destination of the next train and at the same time indicates that it it's going to arrive momentarily. It's unfortunate that it has mostly been abandoned because it is/was quite useful.
So, the technologies to do 'imminent arrival' warning and destination indication systems of varying degrees of complexity have been around some time, so it could certainly be done in New York. If the MTA decides to do this, how they could go about it is an open question since there are numerous other ways it can be done, too.
-Robert King
Incidentally, the TTC's present limited implementation of the identra coil system has produced some interesting results. It is only used to indicate whether or not a train will be reversing at St. Clair West during the morning rush hour, or going all they way through up to Downsview. Since only a handful of Rolodex boxes have been refitted with the LED display boards, they've only been programmed with the two important destinations, Downsview and St. Clair West, so only two entries on the coils mounted on the trains (and only at the Downsview end of the trains) are used.
Previously, when it was properly used on the Yonge-University-Spadina line, this was not the case and all the official short turn destinations were listed as boards in the Rolodex boxes or programmed entries in the flip dot matrix boxes. However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the Rolodex boxes have been disabled and frozen on Downsview although the flip dot matrixes have had the two entries programmed into them but they're displays are flakey now. Interestingly enough, the flip dot matrixes still retain their other programming for the now unused selections as well. The interesting thing is that when a St. Clair West train starts going to Downsview after the morning rush hour, the driver is supposed to set the coil to the Downsview selection or the off position, causing the working signs to do nothing while the Rolodex boxes say Downsview as always, but sometimes the drivers just give the selector knob a spin and it lands on an 'unused' selection. These selections have no effect on the disabled Rolodex boxes and leave the LED dot matrixes blank because they're not programmed to respond to any selections except for Downsview or St. Clair West. However, becaues they retain the untouched old programming for the other selections now no longer used, the flip dot matrixes respond - and display something totally unintended. The flip dot matrix at St. George is good for this. I've personally seen it flutter to 'Out of Service', 'St. George' and 'Eglinton', as well as the proper destinations when correctly set as trains approach the station going northbound!
-Robert King
The important thing to note about the London signs saying how long you'll have to wait is that when it reads, for instance, "3 mins", you'll have to wait AT LEAST 3 minutes. This of course means that the "1 min" sign displays for way too long, leading to several bad jokes about LU using "metric time".
In the case of an older sign:
All the destinations on that trains on that given platform can go to are listed with an column of arrows beside each list, pointing to each destination. When a train gets close or arrives, lights behind the arrow pointing to the destination of the train come on.
Plus on the Metropolitan Line the added complication of a section reading:
THIS TRAIN DOES NOT STOP AT
Then on the left the three local stations to Harrow and on the right the four local stations beyond Harrow. The left would light up for Semi-Fast trains and both sides for Fast trains.
Similar light-up destination signs are used in Paris. At stations where the next departure may be from either side of the platform, there is a sign with the word "Départ" and an arrow. On lines 7, 10 and 13, there are signs with blue and yellow lights on them, with repeaters on the trains themselves - the blue lights denote the destinations Villejuif, Boulogne, and St-Dénis; the yellow lights denote the destinations Ivry, Pte d'Auteuil (then continuing round the loop to Michel-Ange Molitor - this routing is at present very rarely used as it complicates operation, the Boulogne branch needs the service and there is a cross-platform transfer between directions at Boulogne-Jean-Jaurès), and Asnières-Gennevilliers respectively.
Now, instead of installing signs which say useless information, like " Please step away from the edge of the platform"
Actually, every one of those signs are useful and important for safety. I know when I travel on the subway some people do look into the tube if they have been waiting for some time, and I think the people have common sense.
how about installing signs which tell you if a train is approaching ( leaving the next station). Is this some incredible idea which the TA cannot fathom?
This is not hard to do. In fact, the monorail system at EWR Newark designed about or over 5 years ago has those nice LED messages that tell you when the next monorail is coming. They are equivalent to the "PLEASE STAND AWAY FROM THE EDGE OF THE PLATFORM" signs (a lot of them) found at 34th St. Penn on the IRT lines, and replace them with those.
But since subways are frequent enough all times, (except late nights) I don't think the signs are a priority.
Or, if those signs would keep people from leaning over the edge, that would be better than having billions of "KEEP FROM EDGE" signs.
the monorail system at EWR Newark designed about or over 5 years ago has those nice LED messages that tell you when the next monorail is coming.
To add, I think these are very sophisticated, as it shows the amount of seconds in certain increments of time remaining when the next monorail will come.
Ex. The next monorail will arrive in 35 sec., 25, 19, 15, 12, 9, 5, 3, 1. then the signs would turn off when the monorail has actually arrived.
I wonder. It wouldn't destroy the MTA to buy a couple of those.
WMTA has lights on the platfrom that flash when A train is near. But you will see the train in the tunnel before the lights flash.
Looks like there is some additional construction going on while the northside Manny B. tracks are out of service - the double crossover jus past Broadway Lafayette is getting re-done, and hopefully someone gets the idea that another double crossover on the southbound ( Brooklyn bound ) tracks would be a great idea, especially in cases where either the F line or the Brighton line tracks are blocked and the trains need to get around the blockage. A double crossover between the tracks just between the Manny B. and Grand Street Station would also help out when trouble arises - especially when it is least expected.
According to this article in today's Columbia Spectator, there are rehabs coming "as early as next year" for the 103rd and 110th St stations on the (1). The work will be partially funded by Columbia, to finish the job by 2004 - both the IRT's 100th anniversary and the University's 250th.
Strangely missing from the article is any mention of what you would think would be a particularly obvious place to put some of the school's money, the 116th St - Columbia University station.
the article said negotiations are underway for other stations. 125 was specifically mentioned. MTA also plans to renovate 116 abnd 125.
When all is said and done, all local stations on the line south of 145th will have been rehabbed -- except 79th and 86th. Did those two stations fall off the map?
Does our station really need renovation? Think about it, I mean it would be nice of course, but shit isn't growing on wal>¼nd it's not falling apart...yet.
It would be very nice to get rid of the ugly 50's walls which line most of the station. (Keep the artwork, though.) A new entrance or two would be especially nice, and the existing part-time entrance should be converted to a full-time HEET entrance, although that doesn't require a rehab.
IINM, the TA plans to rehab every station eventually. Given the progression up the line, it really does look like someone forgot that 79th and 86th have yet to be rehabbed.
96 is also not yet rehabbed. 96 was in this 5 yr plan but was postponed to a future plan. 59 is also in this plan but for design only.
I didn't know 96th was postponed -- rats. But I was only referring to local stations anyway. Design at 59th counts for something.
96th had minor rehab work done - sections of the original tile were replaced and mosaics cleaned, on the eastern side platform. Not much else, sadly. It would be nice to lose the ugly tilework from the platform extensions at 79th, 86th, 96th.
Well, while those platform extension tiles are pretty ugly, they are not as bad as the aqua tile they used for the extensions at the lower Lexington Ave stations! No those are ugly and totally don't match the original. Some of the stations have lost it like Canal, but Blekcker still has it - that's another station that needs a major overhaul and restoration of the old original IRT tile on the original parts of the platform, and "Retro" tile to cover the ugly extensions.
Bleecker will get a major renovation in this 5 year ppan which will also tie in the uptown plat to a currently unused mezz at Broadway -Lafayette. That mezz will also be renovated and the entire complex to get full ADA access.
Before anyone starts screaming- They kono Bleecker has historic features needing restoration/ duplication/etc.
Lets hope when they do 103rd Street, they take a page from its east side sister station, 33rd Street, and add the same kind architectural touches, restore the wreath plaques, add the faux-period lights, spiff it up nice.
wayne
That goes for every station on the original Contract One portion. They did a super job at 66th St. as well.
Yep, they sure did - and the new plaques were even cast by Grueby Faience just as the originals were.
wayne
There is only one flaw at 66-- The recreated 66 plaques have LC for Lincoln Center which of course was not there when the station was built.
That's not a flaw -- it's a deliberate modification, quite tastefully done, IMO.
I kind of like that "flaw". It's a nice way of preserving the past, while making it useful in the present.
Yes 33rd Street is a jewel. They did a great job on it. 28th and 23rd could use a little restoration. I know they did a half-a**ed job in the early 90's on both of those. I hate the way 23rd was "renovated". 28th isn't too bad, but it's not as nice as 33rd.
Here it is: run the 2 express so the 3 can run local to Chambers, since the 4 runs to New Lots late nights. Second, run the 4 express in Manhattan and have the 5 run local to Bowling Green. This way you have the 5 and 6 running local and the 1 and the 3 running local on the west side.
For Central Park West, run the A express in Manhattan and Brooklyn since its a LONG trip to Far Rockaway and have the B and the C run local. The C can run to Lefferts instead of that horrible shuttle. The B can probably terminate at second avenue instead of going all the way to coney island, you can transfer at second av for the F.
For the weekend, and the weekday midday, run the 5 to Flatbush or New Lots. This way people riding the 5 from the bronx can have access to BK. They have enough cars to do all of this. What's stopping them? Any comments?
That part about the B, I meant to say 34 street(coney in 2004).Transfer at 2 avenue for the F to BK.
Listen- the TA shouldn't waste money running unnecessary express service at night. The New York Subway is already one of the few cities in the world to operate overnight, and the only with any true express service. You want to operate 3 services on both the west side and east side irt's, when they really only need 1 local at night.
I don't think 3 tph is sufficient on either IRT trunk in Manhattan overnight -- but 9 tph certainly is unnecessary.
The TA runs a mass transit system, not a taxi service. There's no need to run services of convenience if they're going to run empty. Running trains is expensive. Save that money for when and where it's needed.
I think your post left some questions as to what was to be owl service and what was to be weekend daytime service.
For OWL service (overnight) on the IRT you need just two services per trunk: 1 (local) and 2 (express) on the west side, 4 (express) and 6 (local) on the east side.
I would go for 24/7 "A" service, with "C" and "D" running OWL local.
They could also try and find a way to eliminate the Lefferts shuttle and replace it with through "A" or "C" service.
Weekend service: Once they get Stillwell put back together, could they not try and find a way to operate some kind of Brighton Express, at least on Saturday?
wayne
Wherever feasible, if late night service has two routes running on a trunk, they should both be locals. Thus the 2 and 4 run local at night, as does the A (along with the E between 50th and Canal) and the E (along with the G in Queens), and the D and Q should run local at night. The time lost by long-distance riders on the local is offset by shorter waits for short-distance riders.
What did they do in the "good old days"? The 4, 2, A, D, and N ran express all night in Manhattan (the N was express in Brooklyn as well). The E and F were express on Queens Blvd. This pattern lasted for many, many years.
Now I'm not arguing with the logic presented here for not needing them now. But, when I was in college, and I wanted to go to Nathan's/Times Square at 2 AM, it was nice knowing a 2 was waiting for me at 96 St. Were headways shorter then?
I remember some occasional endless waits for a local late at night in the good old days (late 60s). I sure would have preferred that express to stop for me rather than whizzing past. I'm pretty sure headways were 20 minutes then too.
Since A runs a long trip between 207 and Far Rockaway with local stop between 59 and 145. Run D local between 59 and 145. Extend E to Leffert at nite with all local stops from Queens through Manahattan to Brooklyn. There riders don't have to wait 20 min at nite. 2 3 4 5 remains normal, no changes is needed.
you'll need more trains and more crew,and money is also a subject into this matter.there is absoultely NO need for any of this to happen so it wont,no matter what.
Somehow, I get the impression many posters avoid todays remembrances. We did survive the terrible 911, we have relived so much more and live on today to carry on. I read of station rehabilitations and route changes but nothing more than 'What were you doing on 911?' Come on crew...cough it up and let it out to start the healing process. If I did not think this matter was of importance, I would not be online at 0015 hours only to wake at 0430 for duty. CI peter
>>>Somehow, I get the impression many posters avoid todays remembrances.<<
You got that right. I am happy to say I did not see or read anything about it at all. It would've only depressed me. I know full well what happened one year ago and do not need the media ramming it down my throat every 5 seconds.
Peace,
ANDEE
New York's "play 3" winning lotto numbers for September 11, 2002: 9-1-1.
I wonder how many people played those numbers yesterday. This reminds me of a similar situation in CT back in 1996, when the numbers "8-0-0" came up a few days after flight 800 crashed. So many people played that number, that the CT State Lotto lost money. Everyone who wins gets something like $500 (you don't split the pot). -Nick
There was a similar occurance when UA587 went down. The Early draw in the NJ Lotto was '578', which wins on a multi-play bet of '587', and the evening draw was '587'. The payout for the evening draw was $16.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/lottery.htm
-Hank
Big difference between the games in NY and NJ. In NJ, the numbers game is pari-mutuel, meaning that whatever amount is in the prize pool for that drawing gets divided among the winners. The more tickets sold on the winning number, the less each ticket is worth. In NY, if you hit the number on a $1 straight bet, you get $500, regardless of how many (or how few) tickets were sold on that number.
I've heard some people speculate that the drawing might have been fixed. To me, it doesn't make sense. Even if the state COULD rig the live, televised drawing, why would the state have wanted 911 to come out last night? It would figure that loads of people would play that number yesterday, and thus the state would have to pay out more money on that number than if a "normal" random number came out.
I really doubt it was fixed. Somehow, those numbers were really picked! -Nick
I think we're a bit too concerned about this....
Interesting though
That sort of stuff backs up my conspirac that they could rig the game or something like that. With the examples that you gave it makes me wonder...
It's a little starange, especially on September 11th. When I first yeard that yesterday it freaked me out.
The chances of hitting any particular three-digit number in any particular drawing is one in one thousand. Not exactly astromonimcal.
A famous coincidence was in the '50s or ealy '60s when a Jersey Central train on the line that is now part of HBLR plunged into the Bay between Elizabeth and Bayonne. The papers (Daily News?) published a picture of the first car being pulled out of the bay, it's 3-digit number showing clearly in the picture.
Loys of People played that number and it came up. Bookies all over the area went into hiding...
It's still a wierd coincidence that it happened yesterday of all days. It wouldn't have been so wierd today, for example, if 912 came up, just that the date came up on Sept 11th.
That's just the point: 911 on 9/11 is weirder than 912 on 9/12 but the probabilities are the same. It's just different in our heads.
If fact, the probability of 911 coming up on 9/11 is exactly the same as say, 472 coming up on 9/11, but noone would have any reason to notice that.
Coincidences happen. It's a fact of life, not evidence of anything supernatural.
I experienced one myself yesterday. The son of a man who works for a different department of my company died at the WTC. The CEO mentioned the son's name when we had a brief company meeting yesterday.
Later that evening, I went to the gym and started using one of the cross-country skiing machines. There are several TV sets mounted on the ceiling in front of the exercise machines. I started watching one showing CNN, and across the bottom of the screen there was a "crawler" message listing the names of the 9/11 victims.
Want to guess what was the very first name I saw?
I think that also happened on August 8, 1988. A lot of people were betting the 8-8-8 combination, so much so that the state suspended sales on the number. Then, as luck would have it, it did in fact come up.
While it is true that the probability of any number coming up is 1 in a 1000, it would be interesting to know how many of these skewed purchase days have had their numbers come up.
Wow. Eerie in the extreme. Where are the conspiracy theories?
I have a sneaking it was rigged to boost city morale.
The fact that the numbers 9-1-1 where drawn in the New York "play 3" lottery on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 is indeed a very strange coincidence. Some people wonder if it was fixed, but I don't believe so.
#3 West End Jeff
I downloaded the RTO schedule for the restart of the 1/9. It is always possible that they will just open early, since trains will be running light through the trackage and stations long before the official opening.
But let's say that they really do keep to reopening at 12:01 AM Sunday. That would presumably be the train scheduled to leave Chambers Street at 11:59:30. That train leaves 242nd Street at 11:12, 96th Street at 11:37, and Time Square at 11:47.
I haven't heard anything about any ceremony to commemorate the event, but there should be. After all, the one-year restoration of all service after the disaster is one NYCT's finest accomplishments in its history.
If there are any TA PR folks out there, I suggest getting all the 9/15/01 Subway Maps that were printed and not distributed, and handing them out with 09/15/02 subway maps on the platform for those who come. I wrote on my 09/15/01 Subway map and wish I hadn't -- it's a collectors item.
Thank you very much for the schedule!
--Brian
There were 9/15/01 subway maps? Were they printed before 9/11? Or do you mean the 9/19/01 maps?
And you can't assume that, just because South Ferry opens at 12:01, the very first train that could reach South Ferry after 12:01 will do so. All we know is that the station opens at 12:01. It can't open earlier -- there won't be anyone manning the booth.
I was walking down Greenwich Street today and I heard a train pass below. The entrances at Rector are being repainted and the globes have been removed. The former South Ferry entrance has been essentially stripped (the booth is gone and the turnstiles are piled up where the booth used to be), and the new entrance -- clearly a temporary job -- has an 80's-style double-cube globe with the current MTA emblem.
The above sentence was contained in a NYCT notice about the restoration of 1/9 service to South Ferry and the reopening of the N/R Cortlandt Street stop on September 15.
Wasn't the 1/9 Cortlandt Street station eliminated altogether? Why would Transit tell people that its merely "closed," suggesting to some that it could be reopened, when in fact the station no longer even exists?
Wasn't the 1/9 Cortlandt Street station eliminated altogether? Why would Transit tell people that its merely "closed," suggesting to some that it could be reopened, when in fact the station no longer even exists?
It may be rebuilt at some time in the future as part of the WTC reconstruction.
"It may be rebuilt at some time in the future as part of the WTC reconstruction."
Unless lots of people are lying, it WILL be rebuilt. There are just no commitments as to when.
So shouldn't THAT information be posted, instead of simply stating that the station is closed? How can you close a station that isn't there? I guess by that logic, Dean Street on the Franklin Avenue shuttle is also closed. Come to think of it, the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Avenues els, the Fulton Street el and the Myrtle and Lexington Avenues els are also closed.
So shouldn't THAT information be posted, instead of simply stating that the station is closed? How can you close a station that isn't there? I guess by that logic, Dean Street on the Franklin Avenue shuttle is also closed. Come to think of it, the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Avenues els, the Fulton Street el and the Myrtle and Lexington Avenues els are also closed.
We're getting into semantic difficulties here. It makes sense to describe Cortlandt Street as "closed" because while it currently has no service, it most likely will reopen at some indefinite time in the future. Dean Street et al. are not appropriately described as "closed" (except in historical/railfan discussions) because they are gone forever, never to return.
I still say you can't close something that isn't there.
Something IS there...it's not a station at the moment (it's a shell), but SOMETHING is there. What is there will be finished eventually and opened.
David
It's even visible (for now) from Church Street. At least I assume that's why the tunnel widens for, oh, about 510 feet.
We're getting into semantic difficulties here. It makes sense to describe Cortlandt Street as "closed" because while it currently has no service, it most likely will reopen at some indefinite time in the future.
It's a bit like the A Watertown line and the E Arborway line on the Green line is "closed" in Boston.
AEM7
So shouldn't THAT information be posted, instead of simply stating that the station is closed? How can you close a station that isn't there? I guess by that logic, Dean Street on the Franklin Avenue shuttle is also closed. Come to think of it, the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Avenues els, the Fulton Street el and the Myrtle and Lexington Avenues els are also closed.
That's silly. Dean Street is abandoned and removed, along with the Myrtle and the other els. Cortlandt is NOT an abandoned station. It will return again. Dean St and all the others will never return. Do you really think the general public really care if the station is there or not. They just want to know that it will return, so in their eyes it is just closed. Only railfans think further about things such as the station not physically being there.
It's not officially "abandoned" as a station stop. When they rebuilt the line, they are leaving a station shell there, with "false" walls along the edge of the platform and the trackbed. THis way they can work on the station freely while trains roar by. The station will be reinstated some time in the future when it is decided what will be built at the site and how it will be done. The station is utterly useless at this time anyway as it's location is right in the middle of the "pit". I think it was a smart idea, as they have no idea where the new buildings will be, and where they even need to put stairways, etc. And even if they did complete the station, it would still have to remain closed as it's in the middle of no where.
The reason they say it's just closed is because it is not an "abandoned" station like let's say Worth Street on the Lex, that will never reopen again. Cortlandt will return when the WTC is rebuilt.
Chris
I completely disagree. I don't know that there's a shell of Cortlandt Street left. I think that the entire station has been removed from the platform edges on back. There's a better chance that Worth Street will reopen than Cortlandt Street, because Worth Street still exists while Cortlandt does not.
The truth is that one day, there may be another, successor Cortlandt Street station on the line, but no time soon. Why not just tell people that the Cortlandt Street stop has been removed and will hopefully be replaced by a new station in the future?
Just another example of NYCT tomfoolery.
"There's a better chance that Worth Street will reopen than Cortlandt Street, because Worth Street still exists while Cortlandt does not."
NYCT has committed to putting in a new Cortlandt St station. They just haven't aid when, because it's not in their control.
They have also essentially committed that there will never again be a useable Worth Street station, by saying it is permanently closed.
NYCT has committed to putting in a new Cortlandt St station. They just haven't aid when, because it's not in their control.
They have also essentially committed that there will never again be a useable Worth Street station, by saying it is permanently closed.
Exactly. I believe there is even insurance and aid funds that have been allocated for the Cortlandt Street station included in the funds provided for the rebuilt of the entire line. It's just that there is no way that it can be completed at this time because no one knows what will be put on the site, and how it will be built, so it would be a waste of money to do anything more than build the shell at this time, but the funds have already been allocated for the station.
I don't know that there's a shell of Cortlandt Street left. I think that the entire station has been removed from the platform edges on back
You are correct, there is nothing left of the "old station". I believe the shell that I read about is entirely new construction.
I believe the shell that I read about is entirely new construction.
And they can't do anything with it until they know what they are going to build around it, including transit hubs and or 100 story towers!
Elias
100? Why does everybody want to build shorter?
110 or more, not less.
Number of floors is independent of height. The Petronas towers are 88 stories, but they are close to 1500 ft tall.
Floors are a better measure of height than units of length. Since floors represent life and activity and not how much garbage gets stacked up on the top of a building.
So does than mean the Sears tower and the WTC were the same height and had equal amounts of life and activity, even thought the Sears is almost 100 ft taller? Floor area is the best way to represent life and activity, as it shows how much of each can be there. The Sears has 4.5 million sq ft, while each WTC tower had "only" 4.3 million. And that "garbage" on top of a building makes it look 100x better than any rectangle design. The WTC were some of the blandest buildings in the world.
Rectangles kick ass! They were a little bland, true. But hell, they were FIRST!
And BTW: Because of that rectangle, each WTC tower took up less space on the ground than the Sears. Which gave them enough room to build two. So really, that's 8.6 Million ft².
They were first at what? Because they definately were not the first rectangle towers. In case you haven't noticed, the vast majority of buildings in the world have rectanglar footprints. Also, the Sears Tower is rectangular in shape, but they were creative enough to do more with it. Your "less space" argument makes no sense, both properties have different sizes, requirments, etc. They could have built the WTC thinner and put 5 towers, big deal. Also, if they wanted to be more efficient with the footprint of the towers, they would have used a circle, the most efficient shape in terms of area versus perimeter length.
No, you don't understand. The entire former Cortlandt Street station was removed, along with everything around it. When the new line was built, a new station shell at Cortlandt Street was included. If the TA didn't have plans to eventually open a new station there, that money wouldn't have been spent. The station wasn't completed because the only people who'd have any use for it now are construction workers.
>>Just another example of NYCT tomfoolery<<
Explain NYCT tomfoolery !
Bill "Newkirk"
First of all, Joe Blow riding the subway will know that he can't use Courtlandt St when he sees the word "closed". That's all that matters. No need to get technical for something so obvious. You're thinking too much.
Second, isn't it much easier to write "closed" than "does not exist, may come back at later time"?
Thank you! My sentiments exactly. This whole series of postings is an exercise in nit-pickiness. Regardless of what appears at the old Cortlandt Street site, or when, it doesn't matter now. All that matters is Rector and South Ferry follow Chambers. And for those who must exit at Cortlandt St., they can use the N/R/W.
Saw an R-42 M train on the lower level of Queensboro Plaza this morning. At first I thought it was one of the R-40M's until I saw the car #'s. 4675 was the lead motor. Is this rerouting because of Stillwell Ave.? Thanks.
It is credible. R40Ms have been transfered to the Coney Island Yard (N,Q,W) from East New York (J,L,M,Z) due to the arrival of R143s. I figured some R42s would follow sooner or later.
:-) Andrew
I doubt it unless all R40Ms are over at CI from ENY.
It was probably being used to train new Train Operators. NYCT tends to use trains from East New York for this purpose, and they go all over "Subdivision B."
David
Now that makes sense. I kept waiting for the doors to open while I was on the Manhattan-bound "7", but they didn't. I thought it highly unlikely for an R-42 M train to be rerouted through Queensboro Plaza.
"Cortlandt St station is completely gone, the first subway station in New York to be not only closed but totally removed. The quick construction will provide about 2500 feet of new subway tunnel with no station, a simple two-track structure built in exactly the same style as the old tunnel. A new station will be built later when the site is redeveloped, designed to fit in with whatever plans are made."
The above is from the Cortlandt Street entry in Joe Brennan's Abandoned Stations site.
Why can't Transit just tell people that the station has been removed and a new one will be built in the future? To me, a closed station is a unused station that physically exists in an abandoned state. That is not Cortlandt.
Why can't Transit just tell people that the station has been removed and a new one will be built in the future? To me, a closed station is a unused station that physically exists in an abandoned state. That is not Cortlandt.
What you say makes sense, but I still don't think your average subway rider really cares if it's physically there or not, or if it really matters to even tell them. Only we as "railfans" care. "Closed" implies that the station will be back, which is all that matters from a operational standpoint. Removed implies it's gone for good.
It works the other way also. 18th Street station on the Lex is NOT closed (even though it physically exists). It is abandoned and will NEVER return to service. Do you think any average riders who aren't railfans or historians really care that it physically exists?
Actually Joe is wrong in that statement.
Dean St was also closed and removed when the Franklin Av shuttle was rebuilt. So if anything Cotrtlandt St is the 2nd station.
Dean Street wasn't a "subway" station. Cortlandt is actually the first "subway" (underground) station to be removed. Myrtle Ave after Dekalb Station came close with one platform completely removed. There are many stations that have been removed from the system, such as Dean Street, but none underground. We as New Yorkers tend to call ALL stations in the system "subway" stations when technically it really only refers to underground stations.
I think the reasons for saying "closed" are:
1) So the oblivious types who have somehow missed the reason for the station being gone for a year now won't start grousing about it. (Someone mentioned on here quite some time back about a lost soul at 9th Av trying to find the Culver shuttle that hadn't run for 15 years.)
2) So the nimnools over at straphangers can't start a bruhaha about a "service elimination". Saying it is "closed" is not the same as saying it is "abandoned" or "removed" or "eliminated". "Closed" implies it will eventually return. The latter all convey a sense of permanence.
"Why can't Transit just tell people that the station has been removed and a new one will be built in the future? To me, a closed station is a unused station that physically exists in an abandoned state. That is not Cortlandt."
Its really an issue of semantics, and I would have to say that the Cortlandt Street station doesn't fit neatly into any of the terms.
Abandoned: I would say this term is the least appropriate. Abandoned implied that infrastructure is permanently and irrevocably removed from use. Cortlandt Street will reappear in the future as evidenced by the deliberate leaving of a station shell, so this term really doesn't apply very well.
Closed: This term applies better, but still doesn't truly define the status of Cortlandt Street. Closed implies that an existing station has temporarily been removed from service, only to reappear in the future. All evidence points to the reappearing of Cortlandt Street down the road, but there is very little station present to be out of service. In fact, what hasn't been rebuilt is gone for good.
Removed: This term doesn't apply very well. It infers that the MTA has taken action to remove infrastructure. In the past, infrastructure has been removed, such as turnouts and elevated lines, but the disappearance of Cortlandt Street Station and the tunnel segment was not by NYCT design.
Damaged: This term, to my knowledge, has never been used before. I really don't think we can keep trying to force Cortlandt Street (and the 2,500 ft of the South Ferry Branch) into the previously existing definitions. After all, what NYCT experienced was a novel situation; never before had whole tunnel segments and a station been totally destroyed.
In sum, I feel that the statement should read:
"Cortlandt St station is gone; the first subway station in New York to be completely damaged..."
Matt
VERY GOOD!!!!
Ladies and Gentleman, here we have a solution.
Thank you very much,
Matt
I think a station was once damaged and closed for a while for repair, and then reopened: Intervale Avenue on the 2/5 in the Bronx was burnt down a few years ago I believe and then closed for approximately a year to repair it.
Again, MTV will bless us with another
REAL WORLD MARATHON Weekend... this time
we BEGIN with the NEW YORK series...
If you view the FRIDAY 13 SEP 5PM episode
you will see:
SI Ferry (NY bound)
South Ferry 1 Train
Clark Street 2 Redbird
....all in the first 10 minutes.
Later episodes contain scenes
from the A/C/E/L at 14st.. along with
interior scenes aboard the 1 train..
Aside, the characters in the NY series
make for truly insightful, worthy TV watching.
There are also some nice WTC shots in the series, as it was filmed before 9/11. What time is the first episode airing?
The 5pm episode is the kick-off... the NY episodes
run consecutively till about 3am or so...
(I saw them all the first time this marathon
was run about 3 weeks back..)
I was highlighting the subway scenes, but you're
right--they DO got some nifty WTC backdrops too!
Personally, I don't go for the pop-crap to watch the NYC Subway. I actually buy the Metrocard and make my own adventures. Can I get an Amen?
AMEN
Peace,
ANDEE
AMEN.... but the pop-crap you speaketh of
can be an out-of-towners' holy water....
Or an out-of-towner's doom.... That's why country is still outdoing rap.
..till Hip Hop hits it up!
(OK now we are totally OT)... lol
Yes.... Hip Hop can go down for all I care with Ecko_Complex, Dawgs and Hollas!!
Amazingly, this JUST occured to me.
What was the contents of the rollsigns on the Newark subway PCC's?
I noticed in older photographs (in the PSCT days), the signs simply said "CITY SUBWAY" but in the NJ Transit days, at least in their later years, it was "7 CITY SUBWAY".
Did they have any other routes on them, such as 29 BLOOMFIELD or 23 CENTRAL?
I've never seen them set to anything other than '7 CITY SUBWAY', 'OUT OF SERVICE' or 'SPECIAL'
Thanks
Are we going to have a frequent fliers club where if you come here often you will get a GOLD handle? Like all your posts will show up with the letters in GOLD instead of the usual black.
AEM7
I don't know why such a system is even necessary. Subtalk is fine the way it is.
You have too much time on your hands. Rather, go to ENY and find out if any new MU's came down the pipeline in the last 3 weeks or so.
Rather, go to ENY and find out if any new MU's came down the pipeline in the last 3 weeks or so.
That'd cost me exactly $115.00 round-trip.
AEM7
Oops. Didn't realize you weren't a NYC'er.
So post info about your local area's heavy or light rail :)
So post info about your local area's heavy or light rail :)
Alright... let's see... well we were talking about station safety in class today. Apparently one of the techniques to make the subway safer at night is to have people wait upstairs, by the token booth, and having an indicator upstairs that tells people when a train is coming so they can go down to the platform. That way they don't have to wait on the dark platform, out of the view of the attendents. The attendent would also be better able to summon help from a bullet-resistant token booth with telephones than downstairs with basically nothing.
I think they can do this to some of the stations on the Boston Orange Line extension where this might help. On the Red Line though, most of the stations appear pretty safe already.
AEM7
That's theoretically done in NYC as well, but most passengers wait on the platform anyway.
The average local station in NYC has the token booth on the same level as the platform, which is only one level below the street. Still, unless I'm really spooked out, I'll position myself while I'm waiting so I get out faster at my destination (if I know where the exit at that station is), even if that places me out of eyeshot of the agent. The fact is that NYC is a very safe city.
This raises an interesting question: I recall that the MTA was proposing doing away with clerks in some token booths as a cost cutting move. They argued that people could just use Metrocards instead of buying tokens from booth personnel. I never liked this idea, because the presence of a clerk in the token booth greatly enhances the safety of the station.
What ever happend to the idea of getting rid of the clerks? I hope it was nixed.
Look through the archives -- it's a hot topic whenever it comes up here.
First of all, I don't think the TA ever proposed removing all agents from any station. The plan was to remove the part-time agents, who aren't around at night anyway. It's not like I'm terribly afraid of being murdered during the 6-7 hours each weekday my home station's part-time entrance is open -- and if I were, the agent couldn't do much about it anyway.
But I'll address the broader issue. Here's my take. Agents can't see around bends anyway. Even if people wait for the train where the agent can see them, they may get off the train at the opposite end of the train and have to walk the length of the platform -- unprotected. And transfer points with long passageways between lines? Nobody watching there, either.
How do we improve safety? First, install and maintain video cameras so somebody can see what's going on. Second, install HEETs at all part-time entrances and turn them into full-time entrances, so people can reduce their danger simply by walking less.
Once that's done, the agents serve no essential purpose aside from customer service. Install and maintain customer service phones throughout the station -- finally, passengers inside fare control won't have to leave fare control (and risk having to pay another fare) just to ask an innocent question. Take the best of the agents and move them to a new customer service center in Brooklyn (or wherever). The rest of the agents? Sorry, I don't believe in employment for the sake of employment, especially not when I'm paying for it. Use their paychecks to improve service or to delay the next fare increase.
Yeah, I guess it is a hot topic...
Second, install HEETs at all part-time entrances and turn them into full-time entrances
What is a HEET?
Once that's done, the agents serve no essential purpose aside from customer service...
I like my agents in the token booths, thank you. I would much rather not have to talk on a damned phone just to know when the last train is. Then there's the Metrocard not working etc. And then they are nice people. I like seeing my personal station agent (she smiles at me) when I show up to my transit stop, instead of just a brick wall.
Anyway your solution of video cameras around the station ignores the fact that the most dangerous part of your MTA ride is the walk between your home and the transit service point.
AEM7
>>> I like my agents in the token booths, thank you. I would much rather not have to talk on a damned phone just to know when the last train is. <<<
Last train? I do not think NY station agents either in or out of the booth have that information.
>>> Anyway your solution of video cameras around the station ignores the fact that the most dangerous part of your MTA ride is the walk between your home and the transit service point <<<
Also not helped much by an agent in a booth.
Tom
What is a HEET?
High entry-exit turnstile. The tall revolving doors the TA uses at entrances without booths. Presumably that policy would have to change if all agents are removed.
I like my agents in the token booths, thank you.
That's a pretty expensive preference you have. How about paying for it yourself? I'd rather see more of my money go toward improved service.
I would much rather not have to talk on a damned phone just to know when the last train is.
So look at a schedule. I'd rather talk into a phone than have to leave fare control to ask a question and then beg the agent to let me back in. It's happened to me before; I only was readmitted because I refused to budge and a long line was forming behind me.
Then there's the Metrocard not working etc.
An uncommon problem, and it can be handled remotely.
And then they are nice people.
Some are nice but some are rude. The nice ones will make it to the customer service center in Brooklyn and will continue to be nice. The rude ones will be looking for a new job.
I like seeing my personal station agent (she smiles at me) when I show up to my transit stop, instead of just a brick wall.
Then you can pay for her yourself. Spend my money on the trains.
Anyway your solution of video cameras around the station ignores the fact that the most dangerous part of your MTA ride is the walk between your home and the transit service point.
That supports my opinion that all part-time entrances should be opened full-time. It's not relevant to your point, unless your station agent follows you home.
"I like my agents in the token booths, thank you."
What happened to your economics-driven view of the world? I'm sure you especially know that the vast majority of wealth that has been created in the world in the last 100 years is the result of replacing people with technology, so that the people can be used for more productive tasks that technology can't yet do.
Many New Yorkers would be extremely upset at the loss of station agents for all the reasons that have been discussed, but those are emotional reasons (valid reasons, but emotional nevertheless). If you're a hard-nosed economist type, you pretty much have to be in favor of replacing station agents with technology.
What happened to your economics-driven view of the world?
You know, it's strange. I was talking a friend about this with regards to whether economists can evaluate intangibles. The topic of the debate was why people move to the suburbs. I think that if all the incentives for moving to the suburbs were removed (i.e. roads charged at true cost, congestion pricing, no more subsidized mortgages and no zoning bias), then people will still want to move to the suburbs because of commonly cited reasons like: Suburbs is a better place to raise kids, you can have more space, the green fields at the back of your house is worth something.
So, in other words, people are willing to pay for such intangibles as better neighbourhood, etc. Thus, the economist can put a dollar figure on it: how much would people pay for a nice neighbourhood, how much people will pay for a "good" school system, how much people will pay to have the space at the back of their house. This figure can be substantially different to the opportunity cost of the extra land that you reserve at the back of your house as "green space".
Thus, it strikes me that there must be a value you can assign to having the station agent in the booth. This value may be lower or higher than the costs of keeping the agent in the booth minus the cost of the new technology.
I suspect that for me, the value of station agent is larger than the cost differential. Although, I acknowledge that what happens to the station agent would ultimately depend on the cost differential integrated over all MTA riders.
AEM7
Suburbs is a better place to raise kids,
They can't go anywhere unless you chauffeur them around. Doesn't sound better to me. You've been lured in by the advertising.
you can have more space,
I have an entire city at my disposal, thank you very much. I'm not antisocial. I don't mind sharing it with 8 million others.
the green fields at the back of your house is worth something.
Riverside Park two blocks away is worth a lot more, and I've never touched a lawn mower in my life.
Some of the richest people in the world, who could choose to live wherever they like, choose Manhattan.
I don't know of any transit system (other than PATH) that goes with unmanned stations. Even ones with fully automated fare collection (WMATA, BART...) have agents in the stations. As I see it, this is true for a variety of reasons.
1. HEET Limitations: It seems to be understood that unmanned entrances will use HEET's instead of 'traditional" turnstyles. But entry through HEET's is slower. At rush hours at all stations and during middays and weekends in most, there will be long lines of people waiting to enter and exit stations.
2. CCTV Limitations: Cameras can effectively watch specific locations, but you would need many cameras to effectively watch a station. Installing say, 15 cameras in each station is costly, and you still need a person to watch those 15 screens. There would also be serious civil liberty concerns with having that kind of camera coverage.
3. No Real Savings: As I said previously: installing camera coverage of all stations is costly. You would also need to install an effective emergency intercom system at all stations. You would want to have fire/emergency detection equipment, because there would be nobody to tell you that a trashcan is on fire or that a pipe has broken and the station is flooded. You would need to have people periodically go through and check the stations for vandalism, homeless, panhandlers, equipment failures. More people would be needed to respond to the intercoms, handle passenger inquiries, monitor the emergency equipment and watch the cameras. Are you sure that the savings are there?
All three rail lines in Los Angeles (heavy rail Red, and light rail Blue and Green) have unstaffed, barrier-free stations, and the system works very well. Security is evident, with Los Angeles Police on the Red Line and county sheriffs on the Blue and Green, roving the stations and trains, verifying evidence of fare purchase. There are TV cameras in the stations with very alert personnel watching everything. Stand too close to the platform edge, and you'll be reminded to step back. In addition to the police, MTA has cleaning crews present, and for the 25% of escaltors not working at any one time, escalator repair persons. In sum, I feel safe on the Los Angeles subway.
This thread has gotten so OT. We don't want to revet into the primordial soup od the Rider Diaries, do we? [Just joking]
But I'll address the broader issue. Here's my take. Agents can't see around bends anyway. Even if people wait
for the train where the agent can see them, they may get off the train at the opposite end of the train and have
to walk the length of the platform -- unprotected. And transfer points with long passageways between lines?
Nobody watching there, either.
How do we improve safety? First, install and maintain video cameras so somebody can see what's going on.
Second, install HEETs at all part-time entrances and turn them into full-time entrances, so people can reduce
their danger simply by walking less.
Well, you make a couple of interesting points here, but I must remind you of one thing: The point behind having at clerk present in the station is not to observe & report any crime which might take place. You are right that cameras are sufficient to achieve this purpose.
Rather, the point behind having live humans is that their presence tends to discourage would-be criminals and trouble makers. Simply put, people generally behave better when there are officials (or other responsible people) around. This is even more true if the officials involved have a direct line to the police, but the direct line is not the main effect -- it is their physical presence. That's why having police walking a beat is better than having them cruise around in cars: people feel that the officer's presence induces people around him to behave better.
Cameras will never substitute for humans in forstalling crime. Cameras can only record a crime taking place. Even if there was a guard watching every CCTV screen, ready to call the cops if he observed a crime occur, the time lag between observing the crime on the monitor, calling the cops, and their arrival on the crime scene is too long to prevent anything.
For this reason, it is preferable to have clerks in token booths, particularly at night.
>>> Cameras will never substitute for humans in forstalling crime. Cameras can only record a crime taking place. Even if there was a guard watching every CCTV screen, ready to call the cops if he observed a crime occur, the time lag between observing the crime on the monitor, calling the cops, and their arrival on the crime scene is too long to prevent anything. <<<
You underestimate the value of cameras. Casinos keep a rouges gallery of undesirables spotted by their cameras, the subway could do the same. Assuming that a person who commits a crime is likely to commit another, having a picture of the perpetrator makes it possible to send someone to apprehend him the next time he is seen in the subway system. This works particularly well with pickpockets and drunk rollers. Also, it is possible to send someone when a person is acting suspiciously, such as loitering near the rest rooms even if no crime has been committed.
If speakers are included, there can be a deterrent also. If a boisterous group of youths is acting up, the disembodied voice of God telling them to shape up or they will be subject to arrest, may be enough to calm them down.
Cameras cannot do it by themselves, but they can extend the eyes of security, and thus reduce the number of people watching and seeing nothing.
Tom
NYCT's whole goal here is being ignored, as usual, having been replaced by rhetoric. NYCT never, ever said that the stations would be left unattended. What would happen is that the clerks (actually called Station Agents) would no longer sell fare media. That would be done by the machines. Rather, they would no longer be tied to the booth, instead wandering about the stations noting problems and answering riders' questions.
David
NYCT's whole goal here is being ignored, as usual, having been replaced by rhetoric. NYCT never, ever said that the stations would be left unattended. What would happen is that the clerks (actually called Station Agents) would no longer sell fare media. That would be done by the machines. Rather, they would no longer be tied to the booth, instead wandering about the stations noting problems and answering riders' questions.
Clearly, the station agents are concerned that taking them out of the booth is just the first step in a process, that will culminate in their elimination. That's no doubt why there's so much opposition to the outside-of-booth plan.
Perhaps, but nobody in officialdom has ever stated or even intimated that that would happen. It all started in someone's head and has spread like wildfire.
David
>>> Perhaps, but nobody in officialdom has ever stated or even intimated that that would happen. <<<
And you find that surprising? When does management ever announce in advance that they plan to permanently eliminate a sizable number of jobs? Of course station agents will not be eliminated completely, but I would expect a significant reduction of station agents through attrition if they are relieved from change making and selling tokens. You do not keep the same number of people if a significant amount of work has been eliminated.
Tom
NYCT has said all along that one of the goals of the AFC system was a reduction in Railroad Clerk/Station Agent headcount. What is being inferred, incorrectly, is that ALL Station Agents are to be eliminated. NYCT has never said that THAT is the case, and it isn't.
DAvid
I apologize if my post was taken to reflect NYCT thinking. It reflects nothing but my own thinking (and, from what I've read, the thinking of some other posters here).
I mentioned in my Chicago trip report that the station agents there provide a useful service by not being confined to their booths.
I understand, but that's my point. It's a giant game of "telephone." NYCT starts talking about closing the booths, reducing the number of Station Agents somewhat, and having the remaining Station Agents roam the stations, and it gets turned into "all of the agents are going away."
David
It's a giant game of "telephone." NYCT starts talking about closing the booths, reducing the number of Station Agents somewhat, and having the remaining Station Agents roam the stations, and it gets turned into "all of the agents are going away."
It may well be that NYCT's ultimate goal is to reduce substantially the number of station agents. There really is no need for anywhere close to the present number of station agents. It probably would be better for everyone if NYCT came out and made that clear, but alas that would require a degree of both candor and courage that I fear is lacking.
compare NYCTA operations with that of London Underground.Most central zone stations have:
Station supervisor
station supervisors information assistant
customer services assistant(s)
station assistants x 5 (or more)
train despatch assistant
mult-function station assistant(s) who perform
booking clerk (ticket sales) duties who are also trained in other
operating duties.
.
makes you think!
Rob
True...but look at the fare difference. Single tickets cost £1.60 only for zone 1. At today's exchange that comes to $2.56. The all day pass, again only for zones 1 & 2 cost £4.10 which is about $6.50 compared to $4 in NY where it can be used for the entire system top to bottom. Of course if you are going from central London to Heathrow it costs you £3.60 about $5.75 as compared to $1.50 in NY to go from White Plains Rd. to Coney Island....
Somehow one might think one of the reasons for the high fares are the high cost of labour noted above. And just think, the trains in London do not have A/C.
NYCT DID come out and say that it wants to reduce the number of Station Agents. That got turned into ELIMINATION of Station Agents by the people on this board and in places where the people should know better -- but knowing better doesn't get them headlines.
David
Cameras will never substitute for humans in forstalling crime. Cameras can only record a crime taking place. Even if there was a guard watching every CCTV screen, ready to call the cops if he observed a crime occur, the time lag between observing the crime on the monitor, calling the cops, and their arrival on the crime scene is too long to prevent anything.
For this reason, it is preferable to have clerks in token booths, particularly at night.
A clerk locked away in a booth can't do anything more than call the police. You'd then have the same time lags as you would with monitored cameras.
I like GOLD. I have Juno Gold and could not figure out the billing. Turns out as a early customer they continue to bill me as 'gold' with 'platinum' service at $ 34.50 once a year. Just ordered my civil service badge in gold for just $ 56.95. Took the options for hard lettering and a solid back at ten dollars apiece. Gold service is nice for frequent contributors but never nail me as a squealer...I tekky the postings after someone posts the R142 news...Bombardier R142 products are a barrel of...Plattsburgh monkey turds. CI peter
Bombardier R142 products are a barrel of...Plattsburgh monkey turds
That's going in my email signature.
--Brian
..Bombardier R142 products are a barrel of..
..Plattsburgh monkey turds.
Now THAT is being verrrrrrry PG...
..Bombardier R142 products
Makes ya wonder.... if the mock-up r142
that is in the Transit Museum would last
longer than the BOMBardier cutouts..
..Bombardier R142 products
Makes ya wonder.... if the mock-up r142
that is in the Transit Museum would last
longer (have a greater MDBF) than the
BOMBardier cutouts..
Why has this thread gone off the deep end? We are going to pull a Rider Diaries.
We are going to pull a Rider Diaries
PLEASE! - Anything but that!
It's unavoidable!
Or.... if your posts show up on such-and-such person's
screen.. you are considered SubTALK GOLD... whereas if
your handle resides in their killfile.. you are BRONZE.
>>Or.... if your posts show up on such-and-such person's
screen.. you are considered SubTALK GOLD... whereas if
your handle resides in their killfile.. you are BRONZE. <<
Not bronze - lead.
Better Yet.... asbestos?
LOL-- Good one Allan.
I heard there IS a SubTalk GOLD...but ya gotta pay through the nose to join, though....;-)
Actually, it might not be a bad marketing idea. Dave should raise some $$ that way.
From what I've been told, there already is a "SNOBTALK GOLD" which us common folk are not allowed to access, and is only accesible by invatation. Not to worry though, I here they get less than 12 posts a month.
Peace,
ANDEE
I just got out of the hospital froma a 6 day stay Im feeling better.
Good to hear that you are feeling better. Wasn't anything too serious, was it? Glad to have you back here, although I haven't seen many other posts of yours. I'm sure there is something exciting happening over at the T.
AEM7
The other day while waiting for a DC bound Orange Line train at Ballston, saw a Vienna bound Orange Line with 2070 and 2071 attached to four 3000 series Breda's come through. I can't remember ever seeing the 2000 series on any other line than the Blue, Yellow and within the last couple of years, the Red. I'm wondering if more CAF cars are hitting the rails causing a redistribution of cars.
I think it would be safe to assume more CAFs are coming in and they are being redistributed. If you are referring to our discussion about where each car ran, those were generalizations, with the exception of the CAFs, anything can run anywhere.
I think the list you had was pretty accurate though. The only time the 2000's may have appeared on the Orange were when they arrived in the mid 80's. Hopefully, with more of the CAF's coming in, they can continue rehabbing the older cars.
Yes - that is a bit strange. When the 2000 series started showing up on the Red I saw trains that consisted of both Rohr and Breda cars.
You guy know if the CAF cars are slated to go to the other lines?
Wayne
Mixed consists do exist, you just have to be lucky enough to find one. If you can hear the Bredas somehow with the AC traction of the Rohrs at once, you might have one. The orange lights on the side of the train are another hint. Unless you see the right number, either the brake regenerators are not working or it is a mixed consist. Another clue is when you hear that click that you hear as the PA is turned on or off on the Bredas coming out of a Rohr car. Last clue is not hearing announcements on a Breda car but being able to hear the announcement out of a Rohr car further up in the train. Simply, when Bredas lead, Rohrs PA will work, but not vice versa.
CAF cars should go to the other lines. We had a thread awhile back about this but I think the CAFs go to the Red Line next and displaced cars from Red will expand service on other lines. The Alstom built 6000 series cars will be on the Blue line when they arrive, although this is subject to change.
You think they'll do mixed Rohr/CAF or Breda/CAF consists My guess is no, since the CAFs use totally different signage and iclude indoor signage, but mixed upholstery isn't such a big deal. I bet if not for the orange destination signs and the indoor digital signs that depict the route color, theyd have already mixed CAF cars with the other two... then again, I've not been to DC in a while...
I think the CAF cars aren't being mixed since they are probably still having troble getting them to run on their own. I can't imagine the LEDs on the CAFS conflicting with the flip dots on the older cars. Also, I imagine that if the CAF cars are leading, the interior signs will work (they are susposed to announce the next station and what side the doors will open on, not the line color, they just haven't exactly gotten it to work presumebly) and if they are following, they will show the line color.
I am sure the contract stated that the cars had to run together with the existing cars since the Bredas and Rohrs do it. Also, it provides for more flexibility if you have 4 Bredas and 2 CAFs sitting in the yard. I would much rather have the 6 car mixed consist instead of just the 4 Breads.
I THOUGHT they were supposed to show the next station! I was on one on a Green Line train, and the interior signe read "Green" for the whole trip. Even in the lead car.
I don't like the Bredas. The CAFs are nice, but they have the same problem as the Bredas - lack of a railfan seat in the front - that makes me prefer the Rohrs. I rather would face sideways than backwards and try to look out the front. Granted, aside from that, the Bredas are among my favorite rail vehicles to travel in (Up there with Market-Frankford Line M4 cars, the N-5 cars on the 100 to Norristown, the NJT MUs, the Rohr cars, and the Bombardier push-pull cars of SEPTA), but I need my railfan's chair!
You can stand over the seat, that is what I do most of the time anyway. You have a better view if you stand, even on the Rohrs, than if you are sitting.
I've seen 2000's on every line but the Green.
And Yes, (post is further up), they hold odd bunches and mixed consists, even with Rohrs and 3000-Bredas.
wayne
What about these Alsthoms? Are they replacing the Rohrs?
Wayne,
I believe the new 5000 series, with the Red, White & Blue interiors are going specifically on the Green because of the severe overcrowding since the Branch Ave opening.....
Mark
They are going to the Green Line because the Green Line needs more trains because it was extended to Branch Avenue. That is the primary reason. The overcrowding is a result of WMATA's ridership projections being made 2 to 3 years before the stations actually open. From what I have heard, some CAF cars are going to other lines, it has been implied they are going to the Red Line.
Why the Red Line? Yes, it's my favorite line and all (It never has problems involving the other four lines), but why Red? Aren't there more riders on Blue/Orange? I'd think they need that first, unless they're going to Red because of New York Avenue Station.
Bredas and Rohrs will be moved from Red elsewhere as well. Don't think the Red is getting a service increase and the other lines are not. There is one advantage I can think of with the CAF cars on the Red: There is a connection between the Green and Red Lines that is not too far from Glenmont, Brentwood, and Greenbelt, making movement of cars rather easy.
Service increase... speaking of which, I'm doing a new thread involving station usage soon. Are they increasing Yellow line service? That seems unlikely to me for some reason.
They really aren't doing service increases in terms of headways. They are really doing capacity increases.
The Alstoms are for fleet expansion. There are 64 cars with an option for 120 more. While they are slated to go into service on Blue, they could go anywhere with the displaced cars providing the extra cars for service to Largo. It seems 64 cars is the required number for this extension. The 64 would not allow for the creation of 8 car trains, although the option order and the 7000 series, which is probably going to be put out for bids within the near future (my guess is within 2 years, especially with the article in the post today).
I got a copy of The Map from someone today. This map had the 1, 2, 3, and 9 depicted with their regular routings. Was there a map that had the CI changes but not the 7th Avenue changes?
Comments about the map:
I like the airport logo idea but the logos themselves aren't too great.
I do not like the coloring of the commuter rail lines and then making them gray in New Jersey on the west of Hudson MNRR lines and in the City Terminal Zone of the LIRR. Go back to all gray or use all the different colored lines. Also, for the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Lines, they could use a lighter color or make the station stops lighter. It isn't like those trains never stop in New Jersey (in fact outside of rush hours, most of them do).
I do not like the gray on the top of the station info for the major stations.
The MTA still doesn't know where the Amtrak ROW from Penn Station through the Bronx is?
Also, on another note, I rode WMATA car number 1000 and took pictures of it yesterday afternoon. This is the lowest numbered WMATA subway car and the second to arrive (its mate, 1001, arrived first).
The Map is not to scale. Hence many depictions will be a little off...
The line to Hell Gate passes over the G, R, and V at Northern Boulevard, not 36th Street. You call that a bit off? I think it is important that these lines be drawn as accurately as possible.
Since Amtrak doesn't stop there, it is completely irrelevant. They might as well just draw a straight line from Penn Station to the northeast corner of the map.
The two sets of service changes are a week apart. There is no interim map covering this week.
There are some errors on the map. Someone else pointed out that it lists the 2 as a full-time express. On the commuter rail side, Penn Station is served by the 1/2/3 (no 9, but the 2 has the wheelchair symbol) and Flatbush is served by the 2/3. That's all I noticed. Stillwell has a wheelchair symbol, which is fine unless the W moves to another platform before that platform gets its own elevator.
OK then, I am surprised they didn't mention that.
I was under the impression there were 2 separate maps but I guess not.
Another change no one noted, the B is now the CPW local, it had been the CPW Local/6 Ave Express.
Oren, are you using Netscape 7? Selkirk posted it's doing funny things to posts, like holding on to the post titles from previous posts, and that's what just happened to this one. The thread is about the Question about September 2002 Edition......., but your post and this one has the 2000 Breda thread title.
If it's the board software doing it, Dave needs to be told.
I was on Netscape 7 and I thought it had the right subject, obviously not. I was a little surprised to see 3 posts about the Bredas after my only making one.
I have Netscape 4.0 or 4.7 on the desktops, Netscape 7 on the laptop but I hardly ever use it. Most of the time it isn't even connected to the Internet.
I think the problem is in the NS software, not Dave's. It asked me tonight if it should save my info and I guess that includes subject in addition to handle, password, and e-mail address. I now have to see if I can turn it off and/or get an older version of Netscape.
Yet the D is still listed as the 6th Avenue express!
MTA does not stand for rhyme or reason...
There are elevators at Penn for the IRT. I do not recall which elevator is functional (express or local), but one was already in and others (for the side platforms) are being installed.
The 2 is returning to the express track as of September 15.
You want MTA to update maps weekly. Perhaps on the Web they should. Doing that to paper maps is expensive and unreasonable to ask, of course.
My point is that the map correctly added the 2 to the "accessible" list (although late nights it runs local so it's not accessible at 34th), yet didn't add the 9 and left the 1 running in place of the 3 in Brooklyn.
(As an aside, IMO, 34th should not be listed at all as accessible until all three platforms have elevators. Expresses get rerouted to the local tracks all the time, and anyone who was depending on the express elevator is in for a nasty surprise.)
When did I suggest that maps be updated weekly? Someone else (not me!) asked (not suggested!) if there were two maps. I answered. IMO, it would have been nice if the two service changes could have happened at once (either by accelerating the Greenwich work or by delaying the Stillwell work). Barring that, the map should have included effective dates for each of the two changes, since the new maps caused a lot of confusion at some IRT stations this week. I agree that issuing different print maps a week apart would have been impractical.
"(As an aside, IMO, 34th should not be listed at all as accessible until all three platforms have elevators. Expresses get rerouted to the local tracks all the time, and anyone who was depending on the express elevator is in for a nasty surprise.)"
Agreed. Happily, 34th-Penn should be fully accessible within a year or less.
Your point about effective dates for service changes is reasonable. I think if the MTA's web operation were a little better organized, and they created maps using a modular design, they could update a web-based map as often as weekly, or perhaps every two weeks.
The TA's web-based map is apparently being updated on a weekly basis when appropriate. It shows the BMT changes but not the IRT changes.
The map I want to see is an accessibility map, sort of like the one that London has. You can see it at www.thetube.com. It shows which stations have elevators, if they are only in one direction, which direction, and if one can make a transfer within a station without street elevators. It also has information on how large the step up or down into the train is. The next step would be to make a late night supplemental map, perhaps the size of the maps after 9/11, to show late night services only.
I'm fully aware of the impracticality of this idea (on a number of grounds), but I'd love to see small maps printed and distributed for each weekend depicting the service diversions in effect.
How 'bout an LCD map at major stations that changed with disruptions. Expensive, yes. But that's the kind of thing the MTA seems to go for...
An intriguing idea. Do you mean LCD strip maps? I don't see how full system maps can be produced with LCD technology alone.
But major stations aren't enough. It's the "minor" stations that are hit hardest by reroutes, since they have the fewest options to begin with.
I think a handout would be too expensive. They could hang the map up in the case with the GOs or in the booths.
That was one of the impracticalities I had in mind.
The primary one was how to clearly depict the common one-way diversion -- especially the case of a local running express in one direction.
Do what they do at Bleeker for the 4, 5, and 6. Might not look pretty but I am sure people will eventually get used to it.
Best thing I've noticed about the new maps, at least from the ones I've seen installed in the trains, is that they went back to the old table-style service guide. The text blob they started using with The Map just wasn't easy to figure out.
They still don't show the Wall St-E 34th-E 90th NY Waterway ferry service, almost a year after it started running. (I don't mind that they aren't really showing the Hunterspoint service, since that just re-started.)
It is on these maps, too. I like it much more.
Also on this map, the diamond 7 is considered a separate line on the elevator list and actually comes first. For example
< 7 > (7) 61st Street-Woodside
Another thing to note, the info for the 1 and 9 to South Ferry implies that service has already begun.
I found one or two other noteworthy things but can't remember them. The map is upstairs, if I recall them I will tell you all tomorrow.
I received the new The Map in the mail today. I noticed that it is the "domestic" version and not the multilingual version. I also noticed that Diamond 5 is now designated as Circle 5.
There is no multilingual September map (yet). The usual repository of multilingual maps -- the Transit Museum gift shop at GCT -- still has Junes.
I don't see the diamond-circle switch. Do you mean in Brooklyn? On train signage, TA practice is to use the diamond not for any rush hour service but only on a variant on a different service pattern that runs at the same time and that doesn't serve all the stations of the regular service at that time. So rush hour 5's between Flatbush and Dyre are circle-5's, even they're extended to Brooklyn and they run express in the Bronx, since extending a line isn't going to confuse anyone who wasn't expecting an extension and every 5 runs express in the Bronx. Only the 5 specials between Nereid and Utica or New Lots should be marked diamond-5. For some reason this was never applied on the Redbirds, which were usually marked diamond-5 during rush hour no matter what. The R-142's get the diamonds and circles in accordance with this practice.
However, maps use diamonds inconsistently. They use diamonds where the trains are marked with diamonds, but they also sometimes use diamonds for special rush hour services. So the Bronx 5 express run is marked with a diamond, even though the circle-5 also runs express, and the 9 and Z are marked with diamonds on strip maps, even though there's no potential of ambiguity with some other form of the 9 and Z that run at the same time.
And the map still doesn't acknowledge that diamond-5 goes to Utica or New Lots, not Flatbush.
Sorry for not being more clear. I was referring to only the map, not train or station signage. If I am not mistaken, the diamond 5 designation was on the Brooklyn portion in the June map. I noticed that the circle was used instead in the Brooklyn portion in the new September map. The Bronx portions had both designations in the June and Sept. maps. Yes, inconsistencies.
Just for curiosity sake, where did you see the car and where did you get the pics? In the not too distant past, I was fortunate enough to acquire one of the old destination scrolls that were on the old cars before the present day dot-matrix destination signs. It really brought back memories seeing destinations such as Rhode Island Ave, Stadium-Armory or Ballston. I thought it was also interesting to see Huntington on a BLUE background, after all, that was where the Blue was to originally terminate.
I saw the car number on the cab door. I rode the train and took the picture before I got off. Car numbers are located at the head ends of the Rohr cars on both sides, head and blind ends of the Breads and CAFs (and some Rohrs), and on the bulkhead and cab doors. My digital camera has a feature so I can make voice annotations. After taking the picture, I can record a note to myself, in this case, along the lines of "Rohr 1000 at Friendship, Rohr one zero zero zero at Friendship". In addition, I write down numbers of all the trains I see in a small notebook so I can sort of piece my travels back together when I update my website.
1000 and 4000 have been on the Red Line in the past two weeks, I have ridden both. I last saw 3000 on the Red Line several years ago and 2000 on Blue about a year ago.
...which is not a trivial feat for a West Sider.
In the morning it wasn't unexpected -- there's one R-62A trainset every weekday morning that runs as a local from 242nd to Flatbush and then up the Lex express to E180, signed as a 5 the whole way, and I was specifically aiming to catch it, since tomorrow is presumably the last day it will run.
In the afternoon it was very much unexpected. I was waiting at the 1/2 platform at Wall when an R-33 5 train pulled in. I couldn't make it to the railfan window, so I stood at the tail end instead. It ran express. (Actually, I ended my day on the 2, having transferred from the 5 at 72nd. How often is it possible to transfer across the platform from a 5 to a 2 in Manhattan?)
You know the #5 trainset was a 'swap.' I've never been into a R62A but 'propulsky,' 'carbodsky' and 'unterkarr' work is pretty easy...not like the beloved Redbirds.
The R-62A #5 trainset was an interline, and it happens every weekday (until tomorrow). It starts at 242nd and runs as a quasi-1 to Flatbush, signed as a 5. (I don't know when it leaves 242nd but it reaches 86th around 7:45.) Then it returns to the Bronx as a 5 to E180, where I think it lays up until the evening rush. I don't know when or how exactly it gets back to 242nd -- anybody?
I usually that train deadheading back to 242 when I used to go to work on Fridays(today was my last Fri of the pick). This was around noon.
I couldn't make it to the railfan window, so I stood at the tail end instead.
There is something to be said for the "reverse railfan window," especially on elevated lines. It's pretty good on the LIRR too.
There is something to be said for the "reverse railfan window," especially on elevated lines. It's pretty good on the LIRR too.
That is true! I actually like the back window on elevated lines (it don't work quite as well on underground lines). As for the LIRR, there's nothing better than the rear window on an express Babylon Branch train! I find it better than the fron, as the train goes a bit too fast to see well out the front. You see alot more if a train is going fast out the back.
From my informal observations over the course of the day, it seems like the 5 now runs mostly R-142's. Most of the Redbirds I saw on the 4/5 were on the 4, not the 5. That's a big change.
However, there is still at least one R-26 or R-28 pair in service. I saw it on a 5 at Utica this morning. I neglected to write down the number, but I think it was in the 7800's. It had dropsash windows, which is how I spotted it in the first place. IIRC, it was at the north end of the train.
Sorry to hear that. From Redbirds to R-142's, what a disappointment. Guess the "7" will be the last line to see Redbirds. Speaking of which, I saw another smorgastrain Tues. evening. The front of the train was R-62A's and the back was R-36's. It pulled into 45th Rd./Courthouse Square at around 8:02 in the evening headed in the Flushing bound direction. Anyone else see it?
In revenue service?
Yeah, I believe it was a local. I caught the express right after it. Fortunately, it was a Redbird :o)
That's stunning -- a mixed consist in revenue service! Since the 80's, I've only seen that practice done with the various Redbird classes and with the R-40M/42.
Speaking of which, I rode the L this morning from Livonia to 6th. Everything I saw was solid R-40M, solid R-42, or solid R-143. That's new.
AFAIK the Redbirds can m. u. with R-62As.
That's stunning -- a mixed consist in revenue service! Since the 80's, I've only seen that practice done with the various Redbird classes and with the R-40M/42.
That is pretty amazing about the redbirds and the 62's.
They sorted the R40M-42's out fairly recently and fast because I rode a "mixed" consist of them just last month on the J. As for the mid-late 80's mixes, I rememeber riding the R27-30's mixed with the R16's, but that was before the 27-30's were painted red, it was mostly in the "grafitti" scheme.
I only saw it one other time - about two months ago. And once at Queensboro Plaza (over the summer), I saw the R-33 single line cars from the "7" hooked together going down the BMT side of the track headed towards Coney Island. Too bad they can't run a consist of just R-33's, they're a definite favorite of mine.
They are still around in revenue service. I bury Redbird inspection records and a few turned over to the grave or work duty have been returned to RTO. I am sorry that I'm too busy to keep track of car numbers and i do know that I'm probably the only person that can but walking 'troubles' all day does occupy my time and thoughts...Redbird trainsets my crew inspects are real wrecks that eat your heart out.
I did R142 undercar inspection today on one of the 'stored trainsets.'
It was an 'A' car....no batteries, invertor or air compressor. Little to repair...found a defect that the 'engineers' would mull over and spent the rest of the day walking 'troubles.'
Funny how the 4 now has three different types of rolling stock, at least temporarily. Back on Thursday the 29th, while riding a 142 all the way from Utica to Woodlawn and then back to 161st, I saw going the other way another 142 and at least five R33s mixed in with the customary 62s.
People at the stops in Brooklyn and along Jerome Avenue must not yet be accustomed to the 142's trademark high-pitched whining acceleration sounds. Quite a few people on both platforms appeared to grimace or hold their ears. But it seems that regular users of the 6 have adjusted by now.
For what it's worth, the 142 handles the faster underground stretches VERY well, especially Utica-Franklin, Joralemon, Grand Central-59 and the Harlem River tube. Even the longer local el stretches seem fast, particularly 161-167 and on both sides of Bedford Park. The train also rocked and shook noticeably on the bends between 167 and 170.) Curves and timers on the Pelham express really don't offer many opportunities for speed, except between Parkchester and Elder.
I haven't had a decent sampling of the speed of a 142 proper, having ridden them on the 5 only during rush hours. The passage of time and limited exposure has purged any memory of how they handled the West Side express.
All through the second half of 2000 and all of 2001, the 6 had the same motley mix. Even more so- Redbirds could be Mainline or WF. I often referred to it as the N of the A Division. In contrast, all I remember seeing on the 4 was 62s between early 1985 (the last time I rode a 17 on it- the 17s seemed to finish out their lives on the 6 and shuttle) and early '92, the first time I saw an overhauled Redbird on it. Since '98, the Redbirds have become noticeably more common on the 4. I never thought they'd outnumber 'birds on the 5!
I didn't think there were any square-windowed cars still alive!
no more birds on the 5 ??
Redbirds are all too common on the 4. Now that summer has ended, I don't mind operating them. But when it's 90 degrees, I hate those things.
R-62A 1670 (running on the 1 today) has a faux granite floor. When was it installed? Are there any others?
Several on the 7 have, IIRC.
I have seen several R62 type cars (no numbers or lines available) with faux woodgrain floors.
Too bad the Redbirds won't see that treatment.
Too bad the Redbirds won't see that treatment.
We agree.
The fish
More mean-spiritedness masked as humor....
I was walking into the Mid-Manhattan Library this morning when I noticed a huge subway map hanging in the window. For some reason, my eye first latched onto the announcement of the Nevins rehab that would close one platform at a time. Hmmm, I thought, that was a while ago. Then I saw the announcement that the N would no longer run over the bridge. That's right, January 1991. The C still ran to Rockaway Park, the M ran express on 4th Avenue and the N ran local, the J ran through to Broad on weekends, and 1/9 skip-stop ran middays as well as rush hours. I'd love to get my hands on that map in print -- I was just starting to become a railfan back then.
That's right, January 1991. The C still ran to Rockaway Park, the M ran express on 4th Avenue and the N ran local, the J ran through to Broad on weekends, and 1/9 skip-stop ran middays as well as rush hours.
I have that map. That is actually about the time I first started to really like the subway. I remember all the things you mentioned in service too! I used to take the Rockaway Park C to the beach, I remember the 9 during the day, as well as the J all weekend. As for the M running, I got my first video camera around that time and taped the M from Metro to 9th Ave. It was probably about 1990 actually. It's pretty amazing. All the M line stations were still covered with graffiti, the R40-42's looked brand new (they just got back from their rebuilds). Broadway station (above Myrtle) still looked more like a station, and the trackways leading to it still had tracks (though the switches were gone). The Broadway stations were just repainted to remove the graffiti and had some bazaar colors. Flushing and Marcy were pink, Lorimer lime green, and Hewes bright orange! And like you said the M ran express on 4th Ave (about when did it start to go local?)
As for the N over the bridge, it was a very short time that the N was running over the bridge. It had almost just opened (a few weeks I believe). I had been interested in the "abandoned" Canal Street station back then, and was happy to hear it had opened again. Then I finally came around to wanting to ride the n over the bridge from that station, got to Canal on the M, and was dissapointed to see that there were posters up that the N would be suspended from the bridge indefinitely, so I left disapponted and had to wait until just recentely to take the W over the bridge to that station....it was a long wait.
BTW, if you really want that map, I may have an extra one in my basement. I'm not promising anything, but I think I have an extra map or two from the late 80's/early 90's when I used to pick them up. I may get a chance this weekend to look for it. I'll let you know if I find an extra.
Ahh wait a minute, you said "huge" map. If I have one it's the regular size one...sorry I missed that one word "huge" in your post.
I "discovered" the J/M/Z around that time also, but I don't remember any of the colors you mention -- then again, I don't know what those stations were like previously.
The N started running over the bridge on September 30, 1990, thanks to a pause in NYCDOT work. Apparently it was supposed to last about a year, but a cracked beam cut it short to December. I remember the service notice advertising the September change, pointing out how much time it saved.
I think the M and N swapped local/express roles in 1994. (That was also when the weekend J was extended from Canal to Chambers, I think. The initial cutback to Canal was in 1992, along with a restructuring of Rockaways services.) The current pattern makes more sense, anyway. I'm not sure what happened for the last three months in 1990 -- the N had to be express to get to the bridge, so was the M local? I could look at my 1990 map but then I'd have to find it.
I never rode the C to the end, but a friend from out of town was visiting and staying near High Street, and I gave him directions to wherever we were meeting in Manhattan via the A/C. He instead got on a C going the wrong way (I should have warned him!) and didn't realize his error until he was already on the peninsula.
I don't turn down offers for old subway maps anymore. (I was referring to the small fold-up ones -- I wouldn't know what to do with a huge one.) I can offer a trade, but I don't have much from before 2001 (but I have almost everything from 2001 and 2002, and I mean more than just maps). Email me if you want to arrange something.
I've mentioned this before, but what I'd really love is to have all this stuff scanned and posted on the web. I don't really care much if I have it in print -- I just want to be able to look at it on demand.
Most of the stuff I have is from around 1989 to 1994. That is the time when I used to pick up everything and may have duplicates (mostly of the maps). I have to go through it. I don't know if I will get a chance this weekend, but I'll try to do it soon. I'll let you know if I find anything I can get rid of. The funny thing is I don't have a lot of the current stuff, because I don't pick it up anymore (I don't regularly use the subway for the last few years beause I don't work in Manhattan anymore).
SPeaking of things I know I have (no duplicate in this case) is a service poster for the "Emergency Service Plan" for Lexington Ave (when Robert Ray's derailment happened) - see there's that time frame again. If it happened in that timeframe I may have it.
It's okay if you don't have anything I need though (although I am missing a few maps between 1999 and 2001), I was planning to go through it anyway one day and leave the duplicates on a table one day at the NRHS-LIST meetings I go to occasionally anyway.
That's exactly the time frame I'm most interested in. I have a copy of the 9/90 map, but that's it -- I used to throw everything out. Now I pick up everything I see (maps, schedules, GO advisories, service change announcements, the works), and I always take duplicates, so I should be able to supply you with lots of recent stuff.
I would love to see that "Emergency Service Plan" -- have a scanner?
What's NRHS-LIST?
I would love to see that "Emergency Service Plan" -- have a scanner?
What's NRHS-LIST?
I don't have a scanner. I am planning to buy one in the next week or so (I want to get one that scans slides also, as most of my photos are slides), so I will scan it and email to you if you like when I do. Right now it's on the wall in my basement. It's larger than 8 1/2 by 14 so I don't know if it will fit on most scanners (how do you scan something bigger?), it's the next size up (like all the "Service Notices" are).
NRHS-LIST is the "Long Island Sunrise Trail chapter of the National RR Historical Society".
Scan it in segments and splice them together in your favorite graphics editing software. There's probably something out there that will do the splicing automatically, taking care of slight variations in orientation, but I haven't seen it.
I've got a few maps lying around...I think one of them is from 1991. I was thinking about scanning it and perhaps sending it to David the webmaster so that he can post it. I really enjoy looking at those maps, especially old ones. Unfortunately, there are not any scans of maps after the mid 1970s on this site. (http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/).
There's 3 problems with scanned maps:
1. Big paper sheets are hard to scan
2. The resulting files are humongous
3. The copyright holders may not appreciate it. I know I've bent that rule here where the items might be older and of historical interest so it's a fuzzy line but I'm not sure I'd want to host recent versions of the map.
One option, which you may or may not want to pursue, is to simply ask the copyright holder (the MTA, I presume) for permission, even if it may not be necessary (IANAL). The downside is that if the answer is no, you really do have to pull them all. A few years ago, I emailed Michelin to ask if I could post a copy of an 1981(?) Manhattan bus map of theirs and, after a very long wait, they basically told me I could.
If you do decide to accept map scan submissions, I can offer 1979, 1980, and everything (or nearly everything) from 2001 and 2002.
Well, I know a lot of us are critical of the TA. I know I am, quite a bit. But, I think we should give the TA 3 cheers for getting the South Ferry line back in service so soon. Sept. 15th is way ahead of schedule. It just goes to show NYC can't be toppled. Who's with me in giving it up for the TA? :)
Not as much as I'd give it up to
AJ Perigno & Tully Construction....
THEY are the laborers!
Write to the TA and say so. They appreciate hearing a kind word now and then - and they earned it this time.
I agree but also consider the cost: $1,000,000+ a day plus the incentive bonus to the contractors.
That could never be done on a regular basis.
I concur the project being completed in the timeframe it was, is quite an accomplishment. Now let's complete this run of good management and bury the #9 train forever! Evertime I hear the term 1/9 line rather that 1 line, I cringe. I immediately think of waiting on those lovely frigid mornings in the winter as a just miss a 1 train. I then get the pleasure of standing in the cold while a wait for a 9 (which will cruise throught the station - I can almost hear the people insida laughing at those of use unfortuantes on the platform) so I can then wait for the next 1. But not to worry, I'll save a up to 2 minutes or so by skipping 3 stations! WOW! What an idea. I would love to have a chance to meet with the knucklehead who dreamed up skip stop on the 1 line.
I would love to have a chance to meet with the knucklehead who dreamed up skip stop on the 1 line.
As would I... but for a rather DIFFERENT purpose.
Can I let you in on a teensie-weensie secret, Bill??....
If you ride the line long enough to learn it's schedule,
you can TIME your arrival at the station to coordinate
with the time the next (1) pulls in... and PRESTO!!
you have 0 minutes to wait in the frigid cold, and upwards
to 2 extra minutes to spend having that extra Eggo Waffle!
It....just might......work.
:)
I'm sorry, you used "schedule" and "1/9" in the same sentence.
Without the help of the 2 as a local, I'm often treated to a ten-minute rush hour wait only to be greeted by a train tooting its way through local stations. Which schedule accounts for that?
In theory your idea makes sense, I have toyed with the idea, but David once again makes an excellent point, the schedule is sometimes more of a suggesiton than schedule.
Actually in the mornings I have found one way fool proof way to avoid the 9 debacle. As I said, I live by the 238 street station and I work on 59 and Lex. So, I've found that I can get the Bx9 bus at 236 and B'way (saves me a 2 block walk), take it to Kingsbridge Rd and Jerome to ride the 4 train to 59 street, three doors from my office. The Bx9 bus if far from speedy, but I found that routing saves me about 10 to 15 minutes each day. In the afternoon though, I seldom use the 4 to come home. The traffic on Kingsbridge Road is much more congested at 5 PM than it is at 6:30 AM, the bus segment of that routing is very slow. I also usually have errands to run on my way home, so passing through the Columbus Circle area is a requirement more days than not. So, the 9 still will haunt me, but in the afternoon, it is not as annoying.
As I have said, in light of the events of the past year, the 9 train is not high on my list of live's problems, but from every thing I experience and read (mostly David Greenberger's excellent analysis), the skip stop accomplishes nothing, it save maybe 4 minutes for those who board at 231 or 242 and addes time the people who board everywhere else.
I then get the pleasure of standing in the cold
Ehh... Piggo?
AFAIK 238th Street has a little vestibule-waiting-area
thingie with a HEATER where I have seen dozens
of folks gather round as the 9 parades by...
Don't stand in the cold, my fellow SubTALKer!!!
Join the gang... get with the HEATED vestibule!
Warmly,
Your talking about electric heaters lad. I wonder if any pot bellied coal stoves are still left from one of the els.
Ya think maybe the CASTLE acquired one for
their bellywarmers?... Let's talk it over
a sack of diez.
You are correct, there is a SMALL area between fare control on the platform that is imdeed heated. About 8 people can fit there without incurring crush loading conditions.
As someone who has to deal with the concept of skip stop on a daily basis, I see the down side and to date, no one has been able to show me any upside. I think I have asked you before with no response to my questions(if I have not, I apologize), but are you effected by skip stop? Do you contest that only those at 231 and 242 benefit at all (and then by no more that 4 minutes), while people at 238, 225, 215, 207, Dyckman, 157 and 145 recieve poorer service?
Yeah, I want to!! I like this enthusiasm. Only if they had it for the SAS.
Ok, I will, too. Maybe that will put me in good with them and they will then put the Sea Beach on the bridge in 2004 to stay. Here me guys? I'm praising you.
When will the 2 be back in express service in Manhattan? I can't wait since I think the automated announcements of "express train" is making passengers wonder when it makes all stops in Manhattan.
Sunday, September 15, 2002.
David
You get to know the schedule by heart. For instance, I know every day that a Southbound 5 train pulls into Pelham Parkway about 8:27AM. I don't take it, because I know that at 8:34AM, another will pull in that has more seats. This is almost always true, unless there is a problem. If you ride a line everyday, you kind of get a sixth sense about ti. For instance, I can also tell how far away the next train is by looking at the crowd. If a train pulls in and it's unusally crowded, I know that the train is probably late and there will be another behind it. If you ride long enough, you develope this stuff. :)
From wtopnews.com:
Metro's Chief Plans Improvement for Rail, Bus
(Washington) -- Metro General Manager Richard White is unveiling his plan for improved and more accessible public transit.
White wants the Metro Board to commit to a capital improvement plan of more than $12 billion. The ten-year proposal covers the needed facilities and equipment to accommodate a 42 percent increase in ridership. Metro projects an average daily load of $1.6 million passengers.
White's plan calls for making 75-percent of Metro's subway fleet eight car trains capable of carrying 25,000 passengers per hour. The subway fleet would increase by about 300 additional cars, an increase in capacity of about 32-percent.
The bus fleet would be increased by a comparable amount with the addition of 460 buses.
Does anyone know the date of this fall's Hoboken Festival?
[Does anyone know the date of this fall's Hoboken Festival?]
Sunday, Sept. 29th. Chuchubob was kind enough to post the following on this site earlier this week:
"NJ TRANSIT is teaming up with the City of Hoboken for a jam-packed day of festival fun on Sunday, September 29. This year, the NJ TRANSIT Festival will take place simultaneously with Hoboken's Fall Art and Music Festival, creating an event that will stretch from Washington Street to Hoboken Terminal.
The festivities begin at 11 a.m. and end at 6 p.m. There will be ongoing entertainment with two stages on Washington Street and one in the Plaza at Hoboken Terminal."
Thanks, Sid. Always good to hear from you.
Anyone know the opening date?
The official opening date has not been announced yet. Earlier this year, I had heard that the target date was Sept. 30th (or thereabouts), but a few weeks ago I was told by someone in the know that the opening of the branch to Howard Beach would most likely occur before year-end, which I interpretted as sometime during December.
December 31..of course ;-)
Well, the JFKAirTrain crew is being verrrry cautious right now. After the mishap with San Fran Airport's AirTrain I'm sure they are taking extra time to 'iron out' all the potential computer system glitches before setting an opening day.
I apologize for the off-topic post - but this is one of those special cases.
Unitas died at age 69 fro a heart attack. He is given credit for helping modernize football. Several of his NFL records still stand.
He had very little to do with Super Bowl III because he was out most of the 1968 season with an injury to his throwing arm.
Earl Morrill (spelling?) replaced him at quarterback for the Colts. In Super Bowl III against the Shea Stadium-based NY Jets, Morrill was ineffective, at one point throwing a critical interception when he had a receiver waving his arms, wide open in the end zone. Morrill did not see him.
Unitas, in the twilight of his career and with an injured arm, managed to get a drive going in the fourth quarter and the Colts scored. He was intercepted also, and couldn't quite finish another drive before time ran out.
Joe Namath got a lot of attention that day, and the Jets did return the following season to the AFL championship game, but lost, and were not heard from in the playoffs after that.
Unitas was described as the most intelligent and inventive quarterback who ever played the game. He was NFL MVP twice, and inducted into the Hall of Fame.
(By the way, I am actually a Cowboys fan, having grown up watching them play and my favorite quarterback was Roger Staubach, a Navy veteran who started playing pro ball at 29).
OK, end of off-topic post.
Ees OK...not to worry off post. Ees new train...you no worry...you no have to fix. Eees Amerikansky Foosball...we no watch. Navy? Ees not M-249, ees not K-19, ees not Kursk. You fix Redbirdsky and be happy....wee carry ball to goal! Cold fusion...balognasky. Hot Fission...we invent dees. Televisoin...wee invent dees. Raydio...wee invent dees too. Nicolai Telsa...hees one of us.
Football is not my fortei...just have to bring in some of my weird humor to break the ice and overcome yesterdays activities...those who did not participate in yesterdays moment of silence broke my heart. I was off the line preparing to shut down all R142 systems outside of my crews track...and those who did not observe came from places far eastern than USSR.
Ees Foosball...you no worry ...just watch and B happy
Ron, Thanks for posting that! I was hoping that someone would.
Unitas was a true sportsman, and the the greatest quarterback ever.
Watching the Colts was never the same after he retired.
Johnny disassociated himself from the Colts after they moved to Indianapolis. He said, "No offense, but I never played in Indianapolis."
He also happened to be of Lithuanian descent. My father was a fan of his because of that. Basically, if an NFL player went to Notre Dame (Paul Hornung, Daryl Lamonica, Nick Buonaconti, Alan Page, etc.) or was Lithuanian (Unitas, Dick Butkus, Jim Katcavage, etc.), my father followed the team he played for.
He will truly be missed down here---I know that at Sunday's game, the Ravens will pay a special tribute. :(
One big topic of discussion during the 60s was who was better: Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr? It was like comparing apples and oranges. Both were good in the offenses they ran. Unitas was a gambler who would throw anytime. Starr ran a ball-control offense, which was what Vince Lombardi preferred.
I just stumbled onto this, posted on nyc.transit:
-----
From: "triplex"
Subject: Re: 1st No. 1 train?
Newsgroups: nyc.transit
Date: 11 Sep 2002 16:21:25 -0500
According to General Order 1955, all 1 and 9 service to South Ferry Terminal will resume on Saturday, September 14, with the 2150 hours #1 from 242nd Street, scheduled to arrive at Chambers Street at 2243 hours.
-----
Can anyone confirm or deny this GO?
i dont know why they call it a general order but it isnt.the last ever 1 train to New Lots Ave. will be at 9:48 PM out of 242nd St. i believe all the trains after that end at Chambers St. and go back to 242 because all those trains arrive at Chambers before midnight.I would've figured that the last train to turn back at Chambers would be mintues before midnight and the one after that is the first train in service to South Ferry.
They said that Rector St and South Ferry would open at 12:01 AM so dont believe what you saw cause it has to be false.my guess is that the first 1 train to SF from 242 would be around 11:30 PM.
Hell, if the first one arrives at Chambers at 2243 I might even try to go! NICE!
According to official Stations info, the booths and stations are scheduled to open at 1201 am. While train might run before, the stations are scheduled to open to the public at 12:01am
So the train might run in revenue service nonstop from Chambers to Chambers? That's odd.
Might the stations be opened as exit-only? The new South Ferry has an exit with two or three HET's.
Let's try to settle this question.
This maybe a likely scenario -
The booth will be staffed before midnite, because the Station Agent's Tour Of Duty at SF is scheduled to begin at 2200 Hours (10PM). If the GO holds true that the first 1 to SF will be the 2150 out of VC, the station should be open.
I know what the Stations Bulletin states. 0001 hours is the designated time for all service on 7th Avenue to return to normal. It's also the start of a new day.
-Stef
But 2150 makes sense because I think that matches up (at 96th) with the time the 1 stops going to Brooklyn (in the old service plan), 2 goes local at night (in the new service plan), and the 3 stops running. The service change might as well happen then, since the only effect it has is to extend the 1 from Chambers to South Ferry. It won't be until morning that any trains will actually diverge from their former routes. Starting this service change earlier than announced doesn't hurt anyone.
I'm betting on 2150.
Not necessarily. When I was extra, I had a job at Broad Street which of course is closed Sunday. I called Stations and was told to report to Booth xxx where I would stay until it was time to open Broad Street".
While not sure, it is possible that the South Ferry S/A may be told to report to another booth to await supervision or an escort. I guess the only sure way would eb to ask the S/A at S Ferry after it reopens.
Likely. A PM L/R probably will be pulled about 8 to 10 PM to open the booth and prepare it for the night agent who was (hopefully) notified the booth is reopening.
Sounds about right. I heard some guys talking about this in a crew room the other night.
Anyone on line from Team ATS Division A please e-mail me. Your website and server repeatedly failed tonight wasting my time. The inquiry is serious. CI Peter is OnTheJuice
This post isn't as far off topic as it seems. I am trying to get recommedation for good hobby shops in the area that would carry HO scale model trains. I am specifically looking for NYCRR and ELRR equiptment. I am also looking for store that stock Corgi-type Transit Models.
The one store I've been to recently isn't worth while visting . (Red Caboose). Thanks for any replies.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, you might have to commute to Long Island to find good hobby shops. One I can highly recommend is Nassau Hobby on Merrick Road in Freeport. Then there is Willis Hobbies on Willis Avenue in Mineola. Both stock HO, O, and Garden scale Model RR equipment. However, my experience is that Willis Hobbies has a more thorough collection of HO in particular, so you might want to go there first.
Also, there is Trainland in Brooklyn (McDonald Ave. near Ditmas) and it's sister store Trainworld in Lynbrook, Long Island (on Sunrise Highway). I cannot highly recommend the latter two as service is quite similar to that found in the Red Caboose, if you get my drift...
Dude, you still awake?
For someone who's into modelling LIRR equipment, Willis Hobbies is the place to be. They get a thumbs up since they provide materials for modelling which is something Trainworld lacks.
Need decals, a Craftsman Tool, or a Railpower shell, Willis is the place to be. Need an Athearn Locomotive? Trainworld is a must. They have a whole assortment of model locomotives to choose from. I probably shouldn't look to get MTH Subway Cars from Trainworld if they're too pricey.
-Stef
Stef: Thanks. Yes I do seem to be prowling the night. Probably 9-11 stress and all that. Thanks for the info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Uh, Larry, I believe Stef was answering my post that answered your post. Yes, I was awoken from my bed --- and I can blame it on a train! New York and Atlantic when by on the Bay Ridge alittle after 1 a.m. this morning and it was hard getting back to sleep...so decided to check out the boards.
Doug: Thanks for the info and yes I do get your drift. Hope to see you at Branford on the 28th.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The late Dave Rogoff gave me permission back when (I mean way back when) to use his Atlantic Avenue tunnel story for something I never published. It is fascinating for a few generally unknown facts--that it was originally an open cut, that "South Ferry" describes a ferry, not a place, and some of the colorful things that happened to the tunnel between the time it was sealed and the time when Bob Diamond rediscovered it in 1979.
Cobble Hill Tunnel, by Dave Rogoff.
Good article, but what about the rumored steam engine sealed
up in there?
Good article, but what about the rumored steam engine sealed
up in there?
I'm not sure if you're making a joke, since I think I heard that rumor.
That certainly isn't true. Horse drawn cars continued to use the tunnel for a year or so after the steam quit, so you could just as easily argue that a horsecar was sealed up in there.
Also, if a steam engine was sealed up in there, it would still be there. Or a very dead horse.
Given the dimensions you cite, it seems like the tunnel, at 21 feet wide -- is too narrow for reuse by the LIRR or even the B division. Given that B division cars are 10 feet wide.
Remembering its location and original history as a cut, the tunnel really couldn't serve any very useful purpose, except as a trolley tunnel between surface sections, and I think Bob D. has some ambitions in that direction...
There are marks on the tunnel walls from locomotive smoke, aren't there?
Yes, there are... I was in there a few years ago on one of Bob Diamond's tours, in conjunction with the Transit Museum. Quite an interesting place; glad I went when I did since at this point I don't think my arthritis would let me go down that ladder... or more importantly, get back up it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I was on that tour back in 1994. It was a cool tour. I'm glad I went. People on the street looked at us like we were crazy crawling into a manhole cover in the middle of the street!
The one I went on was in 1998 or thereabouts. And you're right... folks looked at us like we'd been sucking on loco weed :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the re-discoverer of the tunnel doesn't think it's a joke!
OK, so where's the locomotive? :)
I dunno, ask Bob!
Peggy ahs asked me to post this reminder:
10/6/02-9am in front of McDonald's Penn Station. Tour of Brooklyn 2/3 lines includng South Ferry 1 linme anmd Corltnadt BMT.
We will board a downtonw 1 train to SOuth Ferry where we will leave the system to cross the street to Whitehall BMT and go to Cortlandt BMT.If the underpass is open we will also explore the downtownj Platform After exploring this station we will get off at City Hall and walk to Park Place to go to Brooklyn.
Stops include: Borough Hall Complex, Nevins, ATlantic Ave Complex( Brighton, IRT,.. 4th ave), Brooklyn Museum. We will then go to either flatbush or New Lots depending on which comes first and then return rto Franklin for the other line.
Stops include"
2 line-- President,Church and Flatbush
3 line-- Utica, Junius, New Lots.
After finishing both branches we will get off at Franklin to take the Shuttle to the IND where we will enjoy a rail fan window on Fulton Street back to Manhattan.
COST: one fun pass or unlimited card. A lunch stop may be made somewhere in downtown brooklyn. Tour will run rain or shine. In event of a G.O., Peggy reserves the right to change stops.
Should the 10/14 field trip be publicized as well?
WHAT 10/14 field trip? That's a holiday and full weekday service! Should be good, whatever it is. Clue me in- I'm interested.
Or are you thinking of Subtalk Day at Branford the day before? Unless the weather is really bad, I'll be there-
A few of us are meeting on Monday the 14th for some heavy-duty railfanning. The more, the merrier. That was the whole point of doing it on Monday - it being Columbus Day. I will be at Shoreline on the 13th rain or shine.
Details to follow.
Steve is right on. A number of us have already found that week day holidays are one of the best times to railfan !
Full service & no commuters, what else could you ask for ?
I usually meet my railfan party at Penn Station by the LIRR main waiting area between 8:00 and 8:30 AM. If there are no objections, we can plan to meet there on the 14th. Fred, this plays right into your hands if you're staying at the Pennsylvania.
In the case of Columbus Day, you'll be fine if you steer clear of the parade. Too many politicians stumping for votes-
Who's leading the tour? You or Peggy?
My bet is on Peggy... Note the closing line, there.
lol
Is this trip still on? Is anyone going?
I'm pretty sure I can be there, and I'm looking forward to it.
The trip is still on- rain or shine, hot or cold. Meet at 9am at McDonalds in Penn Station.
The trip is hosted by Peggy Darlington as a continuation of her previous uptown trip on the 1 line.
Thanks for the info. I'm hope to make it but am not sure yet. Is the McDonalds in the LIRR concourse or the Amtrak concourse?
Looks like your subject line got stuck in a time warp....
BTW, How is parking around there on a Sunday morning? I am coming from Suffolk and if I am able to come, I haven't decided if I am taking the LIRR in or driving. According to the schedule I either have to rely on a train that will get me there too early - before 8:00 or I will drive in. Either way I have to leave my house very early, but traffic should be great, so that may be faster and won't have to leave as early. I was just concerned with parking there early on a Sunday.
Chris
Parking in midtown Manhattan? You must be kidding, even on a Sunday.
Parking isn't bad Sunday mornings in residential neighborhoods, especially if you find a row of meters that aren't enforced on Sundays. (Try the triple digits.) The Upper West Side is a good bet since it's easy to get to Penn (and you'll be using a Fun Pass anyway). You might also find parking in Hell's Kitchen or Chelsea, but I have no experience parking there.
I know it's nuts. I figured I would park somewhere else and take the subway to Penn. I used to have a girlfriend on the east side, and had not too much trouble parking in the 30's Streets there, when I didn't take the train in, but that was usually on a Saturday evening, not Sunday morning. Madison and Lexington looked like a ghost town sometimes on a Saturday evening.
I'll probably wind up taking the LIRR if I come.
Saturday night is probably the worst time to try to find parking here on the UWS -- it seems like the whole world descends on the neighborhood, and they all drive. But by Sunday morning, they're gone.
You could park in the East 30's, but then you'd have to either walk or take the slow crosstown bus to Penn. If you park, say, in the 90's near Broadway, you'll be 10-15 minutes away on the 1/2/3 (whichever comes first -- don't wait specifically for an express on a Sunday morning).
Or you could just take the train. If that leaves you with time to kill, get off at Jamaica or Woodside and do some railfanning (but first check the service advisories, of course, so you don't get stranded in Queens).
You could always just drive to a station in Nassau County with better service. Hicksville has 1/2 hourly service and is only about a mile south of the LIE/Northern State. Same goes for Freeport and Merrick which are just off the Meadowbrook about 2 miles south of the Southern State.
CG
Yeah, I do do that occasionally too. Not a bad idea.
>>>Looks like your subject line got stuck in a time warp.... <<<
The curse that is Netscape 7.
Peace,
ANDEE
Isn't it a STINKER though? Finally figured out where their bugs are though ... another thing we're trying to get done on this end of the world. Their "autocomplete" is "completely broken." Yay, AOL. :)
>>>>Is the McDonalds in the LIRR concourse or the Amtrak concourse? <<<
LIRR concourse, just east of the ticket windows.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry about the subject line. I made the error going to Netscape 6.2 and finally learned to adapt since I couldn't go back without losing address book and all my bookmarks. I then trtied the supposedly much improved, bug free (hah!) 7.0 and it was worse. I was able to export bookmarks back to 4.79 and my address book but nto my saved mail.
Anyway- Penn Station NY (PSNY) has three undergroud levels. The main level is where Duane Reade, Chase AT and Amtrak Tickets and waiting area is . Next elvel down is the NJT exit area, K-msrt,entrance to A/C/E as well as McDonald's, LIRR, etc. McDonald's is located at the 7th avenue end of this level. To finsih this message- the last level is the track level.
One off-topic question: Where does Netscape store the e-mail you save ands how can I trasnfer those messages so I can mvoe them back to 4.79
At least in 4.7x, Netscape saves the mail under the User subfolder. I assume 6 & 7 kept the same folder structure. I used to use Netcape's mail, but changed to Outlook Express for the better features, then to Outlook when a Palm came to live in the house. I was able to move all the mail and address book to OE when I switched.
I dont want to use Outlook or Outlook Express because they both have so mnay security holes that Swiss Cheese has fewer holes. I tried also to import to Eudora 5.11 with no luck.
I have Norton AntiVirus scanning every mail that comes in. I keep NAV updated every week at the least. I tried Eudora, didn't like it. As to the security holes, there seems to be little risk if (1) all incoming mail is scanned and (2) a dialup connection is used. The "hackers taking control" seems to be only with a static IP address.
Moral: back everying up - frequently.
I finally got my mail back in 4.79. I suggest no one try 6.x or 7.x. When they come out with their next version, I wont try it either.
I use NAV and a firewall but one worm did slip through- the NAV said I had the worm but AVG autmatically deleted it. I use both Anti-vrius p[rograms (AVG and Norton).
(I have Norton AntiVirus scanning every mail that comes in. I keep NAV updated every week at the least. )
I put if off for months at a time. Don't they charge every time you get an update?
No, you have to have a yearly subscription, which is about $21.00 or so a year.
Or, If you upgrade your Norton AV, you get a year. Strangely, if you have to play the "reformat/reload game and reinstall it, your year restarts the day you reinstall it.
Hi folks
N's are actually running local at 8 PM, at least 86th St bound (same service pattern as before)...the station signs and map would suggest otherwise...mainly because R's trains are sleeping on the express tracks between 36th & 59th...I can't comment on the Manhattan bound side...I've seen N's pull up on the Express and Local tracks...
I guess they didn't really work things out yet - no new schedules yet...
Evening W's are terminating at 57th St...(same pattern as before)...i.e., when diamond Q's stop running....again, the literature & signage would suggest something different...
M train signage...there was this sign at Pacific that said Rush Hours only...said nothing about 9:30, this was a new sign that covered the older one...either way, I saw no M trains along 4th Ave in the later evening..unless it was running every 24 minutes, like it does in the afternoon during construction...someone here commented that the website still says it runs until 9:30...I can't vouch for this...
Comments, insight??
Starting with the 1914 (7:14 PM) out of Ditmars Boulevard and the 1844 (6:44 PM) out of 86th Street, N trains are supposed to run express in Brooklyn on the local track. Either RTO supervision has decided that the trains should make local stops, or the crews haven't been properly indoctrinated.
And no, I don't know why they're supposed to run on the local tracks at all.
David
Because the R lay-ups are on the Express Track. There are also no scheduled W drop-outs at 57/7 during the PM hours.
When chocolate is very cold, it's very hard to snap it along the predefined lines. You know, like it's just harder to snap off small pieces along the lines. So when transit workers are working out in the yahd in the middle of the winter, it must be quite hard to eat chocolate on lunch-break. However, the chocolate tastes better. Most people like their chocolates cold and HARD, but some prefer it to melt in their mouth. But it has to be somewhat hard to start with, or it gets all over trasnit workers' grease-coated fingers.
Of course, good chocolates has discipline, discipline, just like good transit workers... Good chocolates will hold back and not melt until it gets to the transit worker's mouth... like M&M's. Some transit workers like M&M's on their lunch break, esp. fundraiser ones, 'cause they're bigger. A satisfying large gooey mess once it's melted. It tastes even better with all the sugar coating. In the cold winter in the yahd, the sugar coating is crunchy, and you bite it. If you bite it hard enough and when it's warm enough (after sucking on it for a little) the soft centre oozes out alllll over your tongue and back of your mouth...
AEM7
The same way anybody else eats chocolate, or pizza, or anything else - one bite at a time.
Don't encourage the troll.
Tom
I used the Anti-troll software - the Killfile. AEM7 falls into the catagory of posters who post just to post or to see themselves in the threads. Nothing useful.
Just a note:
Dave has thoughtfully provided a count of suppressed messages at the bottom of the Index page. Last time I checked it, I had 245 messages supressed, acording to my Killfile entries. That's 245 troll messages.
>>> AEM7 falls into the catagory of posters who post just to post or to see themselves in the threads <<<
Although I agree with you for the most part, I hesitate to use the killfile with him because he does have some interesting technical knowledge in certain areas of railroading. We each have to decide if it is worth wading through the crap to find the few gems included therein.
Tom
Whatever, dude.
What I would really like to see is a transit worker eating a chili dog.
That's right, a chili dog. Piled high and overflowing with gut-churning chili, spicy onions, mustard, and cheese wizz.
Man, I could go for a few of those right about now!
Source: alt.nyc.transit NEWSGROUP
According to General Order 1955, all 1 and 9 service
to South Ferry Terminal will resume on Saturday, September 14
with the 2150 hours #1 from 242nd Street, scheduled to arrive
at Chambers Street at 2243 hours.
It is TIME.
The new mall that's been under construction for the past year over by Spring Creek is having it's official opening this Sunday. I took a drive on the Belt Parkway this evening and was able to use the new exit ramp leading into the mall (#15, Erskine Street).
Not all stores are due to open this weekend. From what a security guard told me, only BJ's, Marshalls and Home Depot are planned for this weekend. All other stores are scheduled to open between the end of this month and November (Target, Circuit City, Kids R Us).
In the meantime, I'm eagerly awaiting the opening of a Boulder Creek Steakhouse at the mall (it is 3/4 completed). An Olive Garden is also planned, but the construction seems to be moving slowly on that structure.
All traffic lights are functioning as well as the two traffic-controlled intersections at the east and west-bound entrances to the overpass.
I've already mentioned to a couple of fellow SubTalkers that a trip to the steakhouse would be in order on or near the opening day.
As of this moment I am not aware of any new or extended bus routes that will service the mall area. Rumor has it that the B6 will be extended as well as a slight adjustment to the B13 bus route to accomodate the expected Gateway Mall traffic. Obviously, having a car is mandatory for shopping (at least at this point).
I'm sure they'll be further news on this once the mall gets serious press coverage.
I think there's also supposed to be a Red Lobster in the mall...
Obviously, having a car is mandatory for shopping (at least at this point).
That's just what we needed - more traffic on the Belt Parkway!
Sad, but true, Bob. Until one of two things happen: (1) the MTA institutes a totally NEW bus route and not just and extension of an existing one; (2) an extension of the New Lots Avenue Line to Flatlands Avenue (a distance of a little less than a 1/2 mile south). BTW, the idea of a New Lots extension to Flatlands Ave. was something on the NYCTA drawing boards back in the 1970's.
Bus and subway access probably wouldn't significantly reduce traffic to the mall. Part of my inspiration for getting a car was because the Q20A may get me to BJ's, but it wasn't always so easy to get home!
I'll have to look up the projected modal split for Gateway...
Thanks, Mike. I know I can alwasys count on you for the 'inside scoop' on development projects...;)
Thanks, Mike. I know I can alwasys count on you for the 'inside scoop' on development projects...;)
[the Q20A may get me to BJ's, but it wasn't always so easy to get home!]
Hey, Mike, we really did't need to hear about your VERY personal business...;) LOL!!
>>> As of this moment I am not aware of any new or extended bus routes that will service the mall area. <<<
That is hardly news. Most malls cater to automobile traffic and would like to ban public transportation. The managers look at those who arrive on public transportation as less important since they will only buy what they can carry with them on the bus or subway. Shoppers with autos can shop til they drop making trips back and fourth to the car to stash away purchases until their credit cards bounce.
Tom
In the meantime, I'm eagerly awaiting the opening of a Boulder Creek Steakhouse at the mall (it is 3/4 completed).
My wife and I had a weird experience at the Boulder Creek in Smithtown this evening. We went there for the first time, and it was immediately apparent that the menu is almost entirely the same as at Outback steakhouse, except that the theme is Western rather than Australian. You name the Outback item - Bloomin' Onion, coconut shrimp, rack of lamb, etc. etc. - there is an equivalent at Boulder Creek. Prices are just about the same too.
I was certain that both chains are part of the same parent company. To confirm this, I looked at both websites. Guess what? They are completely different.
Ditto for the Montana Steakhouse chain, where we ate in Oshawa, Ontario this summer... very similar menu to Outback, virtually identical building architecture inside (outside was quite different)... but no relation to any other steakhouse chain. Food quality was comparable (desserts were far superior) and service was a touch better than the typical Outback.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ditto for the Montana Steakhouse chain, where we ate in Oshawa, Ontario this summer... very similar menu to Outback, virtually identical building architecture inside (outside was quite different)... but no relation to any other steakhouse chain. Food quality was comparable (desserts were far superior) and service was a touch better than the typical Outback.
The Boulder Creek steakhouse in Smithtown, as well as a few others I've seen, is a freestanding building, while most Outbacks seem to be in strip malls. On the inside, however, the walls were hung with various cutesy signs and knicknacks, just as in Outback (though of course with a different theme).
. . . while most Outbacks seem to be in strip malls.
Except for the one at 919 Third Avenue in Manhattan. (But the decor in that one is still strictly strip mall.)
Interesting... not sure I've ever seen an Outback that WASN'T freestanding (although they've usually been located in the parking lot of a strip mall).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> I was certain that both chains are part of the same parent company. To confirm this, I looked at both websites. Guess what? They are completely different. <<<
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It looks like the second chain just copied the first one blindly rather than devise its own menu. Personally, I find the limited menu at Outback a reason not to go there.
Tom
Sept. 12, 2002.
Dear Amtrak Co-Workers,
Let me take a moment to tell you the latest on Acela Express.
We have gradually increased the number of trainsets in operation to the point that we have 12 in daily revenue service, where we used to have 15. This means we are covering 40 of the 50 usual Acela departures from Boston, New York and Washington on the weekdays, and most of the other 10 departures are being filled in with Metroliner equipment.
I hope that we'll continue to maintain this level of service, but we'll see how it goes day by day. We are also continuing to work with Bombardier on a permanent fix, and I will let you know of any developments as they happen on that front.
As you could bet, having a lot of these trains out of service in August hurt our revenue. The net impact was that we earned about $9 million less than we would have, had nothing ever happened. Our ridership loss from Acela, as a result of the problems, was about 76,000 for the month. (Our year-to-date ridership is off one-half percent from last year at 21.7 million, and our ticket revenue is
up 9 percent at $1.2 billion).
We still have a lot of work to do, but I'm proud of the way everyone, including Bombardier, is working together to get the job done. Thank you.
Respectfully,
David L. Gunn
Thanks for posting that.
Since Gunn took over, I have been seeing these memos or excerpts therefrom here and in other publications. Is it unusual for Amtrak heads to be so communicative? On the surface, this seems like a good thing. I know, even though highly cynical by nature, that if I were an Amtrak employee, I would appreciate his desire to stay in touch.
A small group of very old men (as described by Jersey Mike after attending a function at which only one other attendee was less than twice his age) from the West Jersey Chapter NRHS will take a farewell trip on the Boonton Line today, planning to take the 1:47 PM train out of Hoboken. [Actually, the Chapter Historian, who will be in the group, is forty-something]. While we're in the neighborhood, we anticipate properly utilizing our time by riding the NCS and HBLR lines. For several of us, it will be the first time on the NCS since the demise of the PCC cars. SubTalkers who would like to come out and harass and/or join us will be welcome (just don't throw things at us).
What EXACTLY is happening to the Boonton Line?
they will tie it into the Montclair Line. This means that three stations formerly served will be closed--Arlington, Rowe Street and Benson Street. Those three statiosn were just bus shelters. A private firm has proposed to serve these statiosn from Hoboken but NJT says there are safety issues at this time. I am sure fishbowl 5301 can comment.
Not really - Benson Street station actually has a nice station house, although it's probably been closed for some time.
One of my friend's father, who is also a train buff, says that Rowe St station used to have a station house as well.
Arlington I'm not sure about.
"A private firm has proposed to serve these stations from Hoboken but NJT says there are safety issues at this time. I am sure fishbowl 5301 can comment."
Yes, I've heard rumors to that effect, but I don't know much more than that. Since I work on the "Newark Division", I don't hear much of the inside scoop from the "Hoboken Division".
From NJT's web sitew via cut and paste--
As many of you know, NJ TRANSIT will be launching direct service to midtown Manhattan and Newark for Boonton and Montclair Branch riders on September 30. This service is a significant benefit for our riders because it opens up travel opportunities previously unavailable for the majority of travelers on these two rail lines. It will result, however, in the closure of three stations, Arlington, Rowe Street, and Benson Street, effective September 20.
Apparently, New York Greenwood Lake Railway has represented that they are planning to operate passenger rail service into Hoboken once NJ TRANSIT ceases its operation on Friday, September 20. This is simply not true and is an inappropriate representation on their part. NJ TRANSIT wants to set the record straight so that you have the necessary information to plan your commute on Monday, September 23.
It is important foNJ TRANSIT understands that the new Montclair-Boonton Line and the resulting closing of Benson Street, Rowe Street and Arlington stations could impact your daily commute. Because of this, we have been working with your local governments to provide you with alternative service, and have been actively promoting this by visiting your stations and distributing the information via customer notices, posters and newspaper inserts.
NJ TRANSIT will continue to assist each and every one of you during this transition period.
r you to know that New York Greenwood Lake Railway representatives have not demonstrated the financial capability to operate rail passenger service, have not received the appropriate approvals from the Federal Railway Administration, nor have they received the authority to operate along the line from the owner, Norfolk Southern. They have failed to provide the necessary documentation needed by NJ TRANSIT to assess whether its railroad could safely and efficiently operate into Hoboken, including an overall business plan, proper insurance information, financial documentation, and service plan among others. Lacking this information, there is no agreement for New York Greenwood Lake Railway to provide service from these stations.
As we have reported, Benson Street, Rowe Street and Arlington Stations on the Boonton Line will no longer be served after the last scheduled trip on Friday, September 20. Travel options notices, which include information about rail shuttle buses that will provide service to and from these closed stations to nearby stations, were distributed and will continue to be distributed at stations. This information is also available at Customer Service offices and here on our website.
Webshots photos on two pages: the second half of Around New Jersey and all (so far) of Around New Jersey 2.
Very smart to take a pic of the departure board. I completely forgot to when I took my pics!
Btw: My pictures of my trip on 8/28 are here.
Six of us made our way to Hamilton on Friday morning to begin our quest to ride New Jersey Transit’s Bergen County Line. The bargain of the day was the round trip excursion ticket from Hamilton to Dover for eleven dollars (plus $1.50 for PATH from Newark Penn to Hoboken). We took PATH from Newark to Pavonia/Newport and rode the HBLR to 34th Street (Bayonne) and back, whereupon we dropped another $1.50 on PATH and rode to Hoboken Terminal.
The trip to Dover was on train #1077 pulled by F40 #4140 on the Bergen County Line, and we duly noted the stations at Arlington, Rowe St and Benson St, which will lose train service when the Montclair Connection is effected on September 29. From Dover we returned to Newark Broad St station on Arrow mu train #652, then took train #115 with GP40 #4138 pulling Comet cars 5205 and 5007 to Montclair to see the connection. The tracks are new construction with concrete ties and are waiting to be connected with the new tracks coming out from Bay Street Station, which is currently the end of the line (Montclair Branch). The Montclair Branch will be connected to the Bergen County Line at Pine Street, Montclair, on Sept 29. NJT will abandon the present Bergen County Line from the Bergen Hill tunnels to Pine Street, Montclair, which will enable NJT to abandon an unsafe drawbridge.
We returned to Newark Broad on train #116 with GP40 #4138, then walked to the Newark City Subway and rode out to Grove Street, where we saw two retired PCC cars in the shop and one outside. We returned to Newark Penn via Newark City Subway after buying a second ticket ($1.10 each), because one ticket didn’t allow enough time for the round trip. The time stamped on our tickets varied from 33 minutes to 42 minutes from the time of the stamping.
At Newark Penn we saw Amtrak’s Silver Meteor, with AEM-7 #924 pulling 12 cars, as mentioned in an earlier thread.
Photos of these trips have been uploaded onto two Webshots pages: the second half of Around New Jersey and all (so far) of Around New Jersey 2. Photos of PATH, HBLR, NCS, PCC and most of the trains we rode are included.
That's a nice trip, but you made a glaring error - you mentioned Bergen County Line when you meant Boonton Line!
you made a glaring error - you mentioned Bergen County Line when you meant Boonton Line!
Quite glaring, since the purpose of the trip was to ride the Boonton Line! That's what I get for posting after midnight.
According to today's Daily News the expansion of South Ferry into a real station complete with four tracks and underground passageways to Whitehall St. and possibly Bowling Green could begin in 2004.
Four tracks is fine, though I don't see why it's necessary. Two tracks would substantially reduce the capacity of the line and I'm glad that option's not being considered. I think the loop is fine -- just extend the platform in one or both directions (there's room) and, if possible, add an exit or two.
I wouldn't worry. By the time 2004 rolls around the entire project scope will probably change.
Perhaps they are consdering resuming service to South Ferry on the Lex?
Midday service only? The 5 doesn't pass through South Ferry during rush hours.
Having to use the outer loop along with 1 trains could cause delays. Remember, modern equipment can't use the inner loop station because it is not possible to open only the center doors - unless the cars were modified, which won't happen.
The R-142/as should have had a feature put in where certain doors could be cut out at a touch on that screen, then they could use the inner loop. They already show the whole train on the screen, and individual doorways can already operate independently from the rest of them as is what happens when people hold doors.
But that's not the issue; the beginning of this thread is about them thinking of replacing SF with a 4 track station.
You'd think the R-142s would have that functionality, especially if it's software-programmable.
platform extenders! They will be installing new ones in Union station some time soon. Contract is out.
The curve on the inner loop is even sharper than that on the outer loop. When the inner loop station was built, they cut arched openings into the tunnel wall instead of building an open face platform. You can still see them today from the outer loop platform. These arches line up with the center doors of a train. On earlier prewar equipment, it was possible to selectively open only the center doors or, in the case of City Hall, the end doors of a train. If it were possible to selectively open certain doors on the R-142s by software selection, service on the inner loop could be reinstated.
Wouldn't the trucks crack from the turn? Anyways.
Four tracks is fine, though I don't see why it's necessary. Two tracks would substantially reduce the capacity of the line and I'm glad that option's not being considered.
I'm waiting to see the plans like everybody else. However, station capacity for non-loop stations is usually limited by the time it takes to pass over the switches whether they are located before or after (relay) the station, not the number of platforms. (Loop station capacity is usually limited by the number of platforms).
There is a very good chance that a poorly conceived 4 track design could substantially reduce capacity on the local tracks.
However, station capacity for non-loop stations is usually limited by the time it takes to pass over the switches whether they are located before or after (relay) the station, not the number of platforms.
Of course a four track relay terminal could have double the capacity of a two track relay terminal - if the outer pair of tracks relayed either beyond the inner pair of tracks (can't think of an example) or on another level (like 179/Hillside). However, I really doubt anything of that scale could be reasonably constructed one level below the streets of downtown Manhattan.
Agreed -- we'll have to wait to see the details of the proposal. As I've said, simply extending the existing platform would probably be sufficient. If there's extra money to burn, add a second track and turn the platform into an island platform.
One strategy for increasing capacity is to have alternate places to turn trains. The 6 and 7 have the shortest headways in the system in large part thanks to short turns. It would have been nice if the Cortlandt shell had been built with three tracks and two island platforms, so some trains could terminate there. One problem with the 1/9 line is that every single train has to travel between South Ferry and 242nd, even though the vast majority of passengers aren't going anywhere near either endpoint. (If track and station layout permitted it, a local shuttle between 42nd and 96th or 137th, in addition to the 1/9, would reduce crowding a great deal -- but track and station layout don't permit it.)
I believe years ago they did turn some trains short at 137th Street. How did they do that? It seems like a good idea if they would at least do that, as like mentioned, most of the passengers are in the middle.
The 6 is one of the best run lines, in my opinion anyway. I would think that the headways on the 1/9 should be at least a little closer to the 6's headways. Actually they are very similar in that they both get turned on a loop at their southern ends. One difference with the 6 is that it doesn't need to go completely to the sourthern tip of Manhattan, but it does have a longer trip at it's northern end. It seems though that the 1/9 could at least physically compete with the 6 in terms of headways. It's a wonder why they don't run more trains on the line if it is so busy.
The problem with short-turning any 1/9 trains now is the rule that trains have to be cleared of passengers before entering a relay. It takes time to clear a train, and that decreases the capacity of the line precisely when we were trying to increase it.
What I would suggest is to hire eight platform conductors for 137th to assist the train crew in clearing out the train. With one person per car, it should take under a minute, and we're certainly not aiming for more than 60 tph(!). Others have suggested turning at Dyckman instead of 137th. In either case, it would be worth considering running through trains express between 137th and 96th (peak direction). I'm not sure if that's a good idea, since the intermediate stations are much busier than most of the stations north of 137th.
A variation would be to send alternate 3 trains local from Chambers or 42nd to 96th and then to 137th (145th and 148th aren't very busy), or even to send some 2 or 3 trains local between 42nd and 96th to accomodate the crowds.
But the attitude seems to be that the primary function of the 1/9 is to go back and forth between 242nd and South Ferry, not to serve the local stations in the middle of the line.
The problem with short-turning any 1/9 trains now is the rule that trains have to be cleared of passengers before entering a relay. It takes time to clear a train, and that decreases the capacity of the line precisely when we were trying to increase it.
It might be time for NYCT management to reconsider that rule.
Let's not go there again, please. It is done for the safety and security of the crew and passengers. The last thing I want to happen is to be assaulted by a male or be accused of a sex attack by a woman who "neglected" to get off while I am simply doing my job, changing ends in a relay positon.
I don't think NYCT can change this rule for several reasons.
1. Passengers who get stuck on relay trains, have been known to exit the train on their own upon finding out that they may have to wait to get back to the mainline.
2. There have been attacks on TA personnel in relay positions. Think about it, you're in a dark, off the mainline relay position with an undesirable character and there's no one around. Not a good situation. The TA is 100% correct on this one.
If clearing the train of passengers makes a relay impractical, how about this kinda thing:
Operate uptown to either 137th or 207th, then cross over onto the center track. Wait on the center track for any downtown train to clear 145th or 215th, then operate into the downtown platform of 145th or 215th. A new T/O and C/R board at the opposite ends of the train from the existing ones and the existing ones get off. The train pulls out. The T/O and C/R who have been set down walk along the platform for the next train. This would only need 2 extra members of staff not 8. A similar method is used at Brixton on the Victoria line in London to get the train out of the station as quickly as they can.
That's a relay. Current rules require that the train be cleared, even though no T/O has to walk through the train so the potential danger that seems to be the reason for the rule doesn't apply.
If 137th could be rebuilt with island platforms, so trains could terminate on the middle track without relaying, the problem would be solved, but I don't see that happening.
If 137th could be rebuilt with island platforms
It would be sufficient to have an arrangement where the uptown side is left alone and the downtown and terminal tracks shared an island platform. Okay, anyone wanting to go any further uptown would have a harder transfer or would have to listen to the announcements and get off at 125th, or 116th if the weather's inclement, but I think we'd all like to give ****heads who refuse to understand such a simple phrase as "this is a 1 train to 137th St" a nice walk up and down stairs.
Hire 8 platfrom conductors? Heaven forbid, that costs money, and lots of it! You also need substitutions for sickness, vacations, jury duty, etc. On second thought, you really need 16! 8 bodies for the AM shift and 8 more for the PM shift to boot!
But look at all the money that's being wasted now by running all those unneeded trains to the Bronx! There are more annual boardings at 50th, 66th, 79th, and 86th than there are on the entire line north of 137th. By running every single train that stops at those four busy stations to 242nd, either those four busy stations are grossly underserved or 242nd is grossly overserved. (In fact, more trains serve 242nd than 50th!)
Not every train goes to Wassaic.
Not every train should go to 242.
Your idea is a good one. Heavy up on local service between South Ferry and Uptown.
I like it alot, but 137 just is not the place to do it for several reasons. Dyckman is, and I'll tell you why.
1. By running a limited train between South Ferry and 137, you won't benefit as many passengers as you would by running to Dyckman. And the difference in running time is only about 8 mins.
2. Dyckman interlocking will allow trains to relay faster than 137. The switches are longer allowing trains to cross at 15 mph instead of 10 mph.
3. 137 is what I call an "old IRT station". It features those "old IRT columns" that are spaced very close together and very close to the platform edge. This makes it harder for customers to detrain. Dyckman however, is wide open, allowing customers to detrain much faster.
4. Fewer people will be on the train by the time it reaches Dyckman. This means it will be easier for personnel to clean the train out. Realistically, cleaning a train out for a relay at 137 will tie up the road alot worse than a clean out at Dyckman would.
8 platform conductors????? Maybe 2 at most.
"There is a very good chance that a poorly conceived 4 track design could substantially reduce capacity on the local tracks."
And why do you expect it to be poorly conceived? A properly designed 4-track platform will help increase frequency on the 1 line. And that is what will happen.
I hear an affinity from some to the loop which is strictly "railbuff" stuff - MTA is aboiut moving people. Build a modern station; within it create an exhibit about the curved depot, take pictures and save examples of platform extenders, and allow passengers to see these exhibits on the way to their train.
But then leave the nostalgia to the exhibit and your Lionel trains at home.
Any South Ferry modification that includes the Lex line would be difficult to pull off, because of the short distance between the South Ferry and Bowling Green stations.
Converting the 1/9 into a standard 10-car terminal station (two, three or four track) wouldn't be hard because of the big gap between SF and Rector. But eliminating the loop for the 5 trains and/or creating a two-track SF station for the Lex would mean building a platform 515-feet long, going north from about where the current terminal is, and then still having enough room for a crossover between the two tracks, and then a flyover so the uptown track could link up with the Lex express trains coming through the Jourlamon St. tunnel before Bowling Green.
Given the 149th St. jughandle the 5 already uses, I suppose they might be able to build another one between SF and BG to solve the problem, but it would be a really tight fit to swing the line over the express tracks, then swing it back to line up with the existing bell mouth between the Jourlamon tunnel and the SF loop.
You bring up some interesting ideas.
I did not mean to say that the TA would create new platforms for the 5. The plan includes a pedestrian transfer (walkway) between South Ferry and Bowling Green, not a new route or station for the 5.
That would make more sense, though it would still leave the MTA with figuring out a way to short loop 5 trains midday and weekends in Manhattan instead of sending them to Brooklyn if the inner loop alignment is eliminated (which they wouldn't have to do if the new three- or four-track South Ferry Station for the 1/9 was put on the west side of the current loop so it wouldn't interfere with the existing Lex tracks)
There is a crossover btwn Wall and BG. IDK how useful it would be in turning trains fast.
And why do you expect it to be poorly conceived?
Consider the MTA designed Jamaica Center terminal. It is a two track terminal with tail tracks. It should have had a capacity of around 40 tph - similar to Times Sq on the Flushing Line. However, by placing the crossover 300 feet from the platform the capacity has been reduced to 15 tph.
Consider the $30 million overhaul of the Main St Flushing terminal. This presented an opportunity to add tail tracks and increase the terminal's capacity by 50%. They located fare control facilities in the area could have been used for tail tracks, thus limiting capacity at the terminal.
I hear an affinity from some to the loop which is strictly "railbuff" stuff - MTA is aboiut moving people.
Actually a loop configuration is the most efficient at moving people. Terminal capacity is limited by dwell time, reversal time and switching time. The last two items are eliminated by a loop configuration. A loop configuration is also more expensive to build because it occupies more surface area which is why it is not used too often.
Build a modern station...
Is the TA's motto: if it works it's not modern?
Your points are not entirely relevant to the current situation. The Main Street Terminal was affected by politics (Julia Harrison) not in play at South Ferry. Agreed that it was a stupid decision - but politics makes for irrationality fairly often.
As to Jamaica Center, that station was not intended to be a terminal. It was but one station on a line which was to reach south along the LIRR ROW. I agree that the crossover should have been rebuilt after the line to Rosedale was cancelled, but there may not have been money to do that.
As usual, you criticize without regard to context or circumstance. That's easy, of course, and convenient. Someday it would be interesting to have MTA assign you a project to do, and then watch to see how well you do it. And I'm not counting the mythical meeeting you describe between yourself and a past chairman. Of course, if you would like to identify that chairman, I might be inclined to believe it actually happened.
Your points are not entirely relevant to the current situation.
On the contrary. The TA's planners have built or redesigned two terminals in the last 15 years. Each design was deficient for the reasons that I stated. That gives me pause to suspect that their four track terminal could have less capacity then the present single track terminal.
he Main Street Terminal was affected by politics (Julia Harrison) not in play at South Ferry.
Julia Harrison was against the Main St renovation, principally because of the traffic jams caused by reducing street width in the vicinity of the escalators. The go ahead regardless camp was lead by Assemblyman McLaughlin, State Senator Stavisky and Borough President Shulman. The most noteworthy aspect of this exercise is that the FTA refused to fund any part of the renovation because of design deficiencies. The city had to put up all of the $30 million, instead of $6 million (20%).
As to Jamaica Center, that station was not intended to be a terminal...I agree that the crossover should have been rebuilt after the line to Rosedale was cancelled, but there may not have been money to do that.
Placing the crossover midway between Sutphin and Parsons did not provide any advantage had Jamaica Center not been the terminal. It is not a question that they optimized the position of that crossover for a line that failed to materialize. They just plain blew it.
There are many examples of temporary terminals that did not make that mistake. Roosevelt Ave, Union Tpk, Parsons Blvd and 169th St on the Queens Blvd line come to mind. Even Flatbush Ave on the Nostrand Ave line, which has side platforms, has the switch in the proper position.
"Julia Harrison was against the Main St renovation, principally because of the traffic jams caused by reducing street width in the vicinity of the escalators. "
That was a red herring for her. She was against any work on the subway which offered the potential to extend it beyond Main Street. The renovation that was done served that purpose.
That may not be structurally feasible. Plus, you really want to get rid of the curve in the station. That is safer, and goes along with ADA compliance. Elevators are on tap for that station (I don't know the exact details, but the station is to become ADA compliant).
And MTA wants the station to handle large crowds better, which your plan doesn't really address.
South Ferry is just one station on the line, and going by passenger counts, it's not a terribly important one. It really doesn't matter what the benefits are -- if the reconfiguration of South Ferry reduces the capacity of the entire line, it shouldn't be done. I'm seriously concerned that the loop will be replaced with a two-track stub with a capacity of about 15 tph or with three or four tracks with no more capacity than a two-track stub. The loop has its faults but at least it's not the line's bottleneck.
I'm assuming you mean that arriving trains will be delayed because they have to wait for another train to cross switches and leave, for example from a #1 platform track crossing over to the #3-4 side; an incoming train then has to wait until the switch clears for it.
Given a reasonable design and 4 tracks, there is no reason station design couldn't handle 15-20 tph very nicely. And with amuch greater degree of safety and comfort. Passengers deserve that.
How often do you need more than that specifically there?
Given a reasonable design and 4 tracks, there is no reason station design couldn't handle 15-20 tph very nicely.
The existing single track loop terminal can handle 30-40 tph. So a new design will cost $400 million and reduce capacity by 50%.
The existing design cannot be made ADA compliant and a new design would do no such thing.
But of course, this is Subtalk, so you can say whatever you like without any credibility whatsoever.
40 tph on the 7th Av local track usually isn't necessary - even at rush hour. So even if the new terminal did reduce it a little, it doesn't mean much.
On the other hand, a new station with straight platforms, the ability to handle larger crowds safely and ADA access is very important, and cannot be done with the current station as is.
40 tph on the 7th Av local track usually isn't necessary
Whether a level of service is "necessary" or not depends on one's definition of "necessary". A "necessary" level of service for the LIRR was one that guaranteed every rider a seat - according to Gov. Rockefeller ca. 1968. I do believe the TA's standard for a necessary service level does not contemplate having a seat.
Having excess capacity provides operational flexibility. The recent WTC disaster should have reinforced this maxim on the TA's planners. Had there been a crossover on the West Side local tracks just south of Chambers, the plight of West Side residents would have been quite different this past year.
Extra capacity costs money to build. However, the question is not one of building unnecessary capacity but reducing existing capacity. This is an entirely diffent question and requires a different mindset. I would suggest that one of the design criteria for any new design is that it provide a service level capacity at or greater than the existing system.
On the other hand, a new station with straight platforms, the ability to handle larger crowds safely and ADA access is very important, and cannot be done with the current station as is.
The question of straight platforms or ADA access is not inconsistent with a loop track topology. ADA access can be provided by one or two elevators. An example of a loop topology with straight platforms and huge capacity is the upper level of the old Sands St station.
"ADA access can be provided by one or two elevators. "
Elevators are necessary but not sufficient. The curved platform and extenders are hazardous. The platforms should be straight with no need of an extender.
Now, if this can be done within the context of a loop, fine.
Now, if this can be done within the context of a loop, fine.
In general, there is no question that it can. You have described the former H&M Hudson Terminal and PATH WTC station.
I have no idea whether the same thing can be done in the SF area.
I'm afraid 15-20 tph isn't enough. That's all the line runs now, and one look at the narrow uptown platform at 72nd when there's a long gap in local service (which there is nearly every day) indicates that current service is an accident waiting to happen. (The rehab at 72nd isn't widening the platforms so it has nothing more than a cosmetic effect on people simply waiting there for the local.) We can hope that the TA will increase service on the line -- until the terminal is redesigned as you suggest, at which point the 15-20 tph maximum is written in stone.
I am all for an improvement at South Ferry as long as it doesn't become the bottleneck of the line.
How would you feel if, after South Ferry becomes the bottleneck, a passenger at 72nd is pushed to the track by the crowds and is hit by a train? ADA compliance is nice, but is it worth a life?
Faulty logic. The rehab at South Ferry will not cause a loss of life at 72nd Street. If 72nd Street's platform's are unsafe, then 72nd Street station needs a rehab. That's all there is to it. If you use that station, and you feel unsafe there, get out a piece of paper, and write to the TA. Give a copy to your elected officials.
South Ferry needs a rehab badly. The TA wants straight platforms, more platforms and ADA access. I want that too. I'm not anti-loop, and both of us may be underestimating the capacity of a four-track platform.
If you're interested, write to Mysore Nagaraja (the chief design engineer for the TA) and ask him. You'll get a reply, and then you can post it, and debate it, here. At least then we'd have something substantive to talk about.
I'm afraid 72nd is nearing the completion of a huge rehab project which does not include platform widenings (except at the far north end of the NB platform, where the staircase from the new headhouse would otherwise land on the local track itself). It was considered but ruled out due to the extreme expense of widening the tunnel without unduly disrupting either service on the local tracks or traffic on the street one flight up, which is already constrained due to the intersection of Broadway and Amsterdam. Although wider platforms would be nice, they were ruled out.
But wider platforms aren't necessary. Better local service would accomplish the same goal. I want to leave that option open.
South Ferry is basically fine. It could use some improvements, like many other stations. Three improvements I'd like to see at South Ferry, ranked by decreasing importance, are more access points, a 510-foot platform, and ADA compliance. (I don't see why multiple platforms are desireable except as a means to one of these ends. Multiple platforms, on the contrary, are confusing, since passengers don't know where to wait for the next train.) However, nothing on my South Ferry wishlist trumps the needs of the 36 other stops on the line -- if any wishlist item can't be done without reducing the capacity of the terminal, then it should not be done. (And if it can, within budget, then it should.)
South Ferry is not basically fine. If its redesign can retain the loop, fine. If not, screw it. There are other ways to maintain efficiency of service.
The hallmark of a poor designer is his/her insistence on one solution. Think of the problem first, and then considser a range of solutions with trade-offs. You started with a solution, and demanded that it fit the problem.
"ranked by decreasing importance, are more access points, a 510-foot platform, and ADA compliance."
ADA compliance is as important as increasing the number of access points. There are too many people who need it for you to be treating it so trivially.
I thought I made it clear that my objections were only if the planned changes reduce the capacity of the line. If they don't, great.
I wouldn't have included ADA compliance on my wishlist if I didn't consider it important. It's not as important as providing decent access to the vast majority of station users who don't generally have any use for ADA compliance and it's certainly not as important as the service or safety concerns of the other stops on the line, some much busier than South Ferry. It should be provided as long as it doesn't interfere with those greater needs.
" It's not as important as providing decent access to the vast majority of station users who don't generally have any use for ADA compliance "
False and uninformed (and you in particular should know better). The"vast majority of users" are helped directly and indirectly by ADA. These include shoppers, travelers with children, the elderly and airport travelers. They include anyone travelling with packages or briefcases. And ADA compliance often leads to a station's greater ability to handle larger numbers of people with greater safety and comfort.
There is also the civil rights aspect. ADA compliance is part of how we measure our treatment of the most vulberable in our society.
Once upon a time, it was considered "irrelevant to the vast majority of riders" to allow blacks to ride the bus (except in the rear).
The disabled often cannot drive themselves, and paratransit, while valuable, is a Band-Aid. Since the disabled pay taxes too, it is a matter of justice to admit them to the subway and bus system.
Thus the statement you made above is not just uninformed, but offensive.
You are correct up to a point.
In the name of ADA they can take away your property. True they must give you money but not what you think it is worth.
Elevators cannot move as many people as stairs, and based on space availability putting one in might actually slow down access and egress.
Hold it. Is the TA a transportation agency or an accomodation agency? Isn't safe transportation its top priority? Ideally, of course, it should achieve both -- but when the two come into direct conflict, shouldn't transportation come out ahead?
As you may recall, when the Union Square station was rehabbed, elevators were installed on the three BMT platforms but not on the two IRT platforms, because the IRT platforms are narrow and one of them has gap fillers (similar to the ones at South Ferry). Was that an acceptable excuse to you? Shouldn't the TA have installed elevators, even if it meant widening and straightening the platforms by covering the express tracks? Sure, the line would have had its capacity halved, but that doesn't seem to be a concern of yours.
Let's go through your examples.
Shoppers? Almost all would use the stairs -- remember, South Ferry is one level below the street. A few with heavy packages would prefer to wait for an elevator (though some might prefer an escalator), but the gap fillers aren't a problem. Even shoppers with heavy packages would be perfectly satisfied with elevators added to the existing station. Oh, BTW, do you know of any stores near South Ferry? I don't.
Travelers with children? See above.
The elderly? See above.
Airport travelers? See above. And why would an airport traveler at South Ferry take the 1/9 to begin with? Of the three options at Battery Park, the 1/9 is the least useful to get to either of the city's airports.
Anyone traveling with packages and briefcases? They'll use the stairs, as they do at stations with elevators.
Does allowing blacks to travel in the front of the bus impede safe transportation in any way? If not, why are you bringing it up?
Most New Yorkers can't drive themselves since most New York households don't have cars. That's especially true on the 1/9, which, except for its last three stops, runs entirely in Manhattan, where the car ownership rate is exceptionally low. The Upper West Side, served by the 1/9, is the densest neighborhood in the country and it's only getting denser. Some of the stations on the 1/9 already get some of the worst service per rider in the system, and no new lines are being planned for the area. A service increase is overdue. Replacing South Ferry with a terminal with a lower capacity eliminates the possibility of a future service increase. There isn't much point in ADA compliance if the trains are too crowded to accomodate wheelchairs.
The subway has a very mundane purpose: to move people. I have little tolerance for political manipulations when they interfere with that purpose. Your post makes clear that, to you, transit is a game of politics, and ADA compliance scores points. I am a pragmatist. Transit serves a purpose which is often helped but sometimes hindered by ADA compliance. It's not a game. Millions of real people depend on transit to carry them from place to place.
ADA compliance in NYC Subway is a joke. Have you ever seen anyone in wheelchair in the subway? Have you ever thought if it is even possible to take a train from one ADA compliant stop to another?
Arti
A few years ago one of my friends had an accident and was in a wheelchair for several weeks afterwards. It gave me a whole new perspective on getting around NYC. She was only temporarily confined to a wheelchair, so applying for para-transit services was not worth it and/or not possible. She ended up using buses a lot, but a few times she did manage to use the subway. I went with her on some of those trips, and it was quite a hassle to get a wheelchair through the subway stations and to plan the whole trip around which stations had elevators, but it was practical occasionally (thankfully, we never encountered an out of service elevator).
Am I the only one who likes SF right the way it is??
No, though a platform extension would be useful.
Actually, I like it, also ( there being a certain romance to the loops), but it really isn't practical to have half the train not at the platform.
>>> Am I the only one who likes SF right the way it is?? <<<
It is great the way it is — as an exhibit in a transit museum. Don't forget that in its day that station was only a minor part of the transportation system to move passengers from the SI ferry. Originally the majority of ferry passengers transferred to the els, and the inner loop was also in passenger service. The present station is not adequate for the passenger traffic.
Tom
I've seen South Ferry at 8 AM. It's not Grand Central. However, having only half the train in the station is a problem which should be addressed, with a less radical rehab.
No, I like it as well. It's a throwback station. I think expansion of the platform to allow all 10 cars to be opened on the loop is the only NECESSARY station expansion.
(I think expansion of the platform to allow all 10 cars to be opened on the loop is the only NECESSARY station expansion. )
I keep asking why we are doing this, and the engineers keep telling me the curve is too tight to merely expand the platform. Mind you, these are signal engineers, and other signal engineers tell me a loop terminal has more capacity than a stub end terminal. Just not that loop terminal, I guess, with people walking between cars.
If they are going to do the job, they ought to put a track connection between the 1/9 and the Jorelemon tunnel. It doesn't have to be a flying junction, an at grade cross will do. It would be useful for non-revenue moves and diversions.
If the curve is too sharp, then rebuild the station on a less severe curve.
Tat's a nice idea.
What curve is too sharp? I don't think it gets any sharper than it is already at the existing platform. See the diagram here.
The Joralemon St. tunnel is already at a much lower grade than the loop station at that location. You'd have to add ramps to connect to it.
No, I hate the fact that the old station is in jepardy.
Well you know, accroding to the track maps, South Ferry has a full potential to extend their platform on both ends to accomodate the full length train.
IIRC: The switch from outer to inner loops is right after the platform.
Would having a switch within the station matter? After all, revenue service would not diverge at it, but remain on the outer loop.
But that would mean a Lexington Avenue would never be able to stop there. Now it can but just isn't done.
This doesn't sound very certain to me. I don't see anything that says that the feds agree to pay for it as part of the $20 billion plus in 9/11 aid. Without federal funds, it is much less likely to happen.
Bye bye Jay/Lawrence and Bway-Lafayette/Uptown Bleecker.
"Bye bye Jay/Lawrence and Bway-Lafayette/Uptown Bleecker."
Maybe not. I think NYCT will only redo S Ferry if FEMA pays for it, in which case it won't affect the rest of the capital plan.
half will come from the FTA.
It would be interesting to see any diagrams (track layouts etc).
It would also be interesting to see how they would do it without shutting down current service !!
"It would also be interesting to see how they would do it without shutting down current service !!"
Supposedly they put in scissor switches south of Rector so that they can terminate service at Rector if and when they do this South Ferry recontruction.
Years of no 1/9 service to South Ferry.. Oh Boy !!!!!!
How necessary is South Ferry expansion to accomodate 10-car trains?
Weigh the cost vs. the benefits and get back to me.
The station is overwhelmed whenever a Barberi class Staten Island Ferry unloads with 6,000 passengers during the morning rush hour. This happens twice per hour.
Overwhelmed is too strong a word to use. I think "crowded" is more appropriate.
With only 5 cars in the station AND travel to the last 5 cars BLOCKED by the full width cabs, the service level capacity per train is 725 people. So, one boat load is equivalent to 8.27 trains, which at 20 tph takes 25 minutes to clear.
Of course, a Kennedy Class boat carrying 3000 passengers will have arrived before then. This will require an additional 4 train loads and 12 minutes. Thus it will take the subway 37 minutes to recover from the dual bubble. Unfortuanately, the second Barberi Class boat will arrive 30 minutes after the first.
The situation will get worse, when the Kennedy Class boats are retired. The replacement boats will carry more passengers than the existing boats.
Not all boat passengers take the subway. Most of the walkers have discovered that shoe leather provides quicker and more reliable transportation.
Mr. Bauman is quite correct in his assertion that not all of the S.I. ferry riders take the subway (by which I presume he means the #1 at South Ferry when it's running). Some work within walking distance of the Whitehall terminal, some take buses, and others go to Whitehall Street or Bowling Green to take the subway. It's not as if the entire contents of each ferryboat are emptying into the South Ferry station (when it's open) all day and all night.
David
Oh, and before anyone asks, here are the annual ridership figures for the stations around the Whitehall ferry terminal. I'm using 2000 instead of 2001 because 2001 was skewed by the events of that September 11.
Bowling Green: 7,227,052 (40th busiest station in the system)
South Ferry: 4,770,903 (72nd)
Whitehall Street: 4,486,291 (82nd)
And here's average weekday ridership for 2000:
Bowling Green: 25,386 (38th)
South Ferry: 15,038 (77th)
Whitehall Street: 16,046 (71st)
Undoubtedly, some of the people using Bowling Green and Whitehall Street are headed to Brooklyn, but it would still be inaccurate to claim that everybody getting off a Staten Island ferryboat goes right into the South Ferry station.
David
After reading those figures.. "I" did not realize that the south ferry station receive that much traffic. Therefore, now I can see why it makes sense to extend and build an extra platform so passengers can discharge from the train reasonably.
What a shame to see the N/R receive less passengers than the 1/9.. Especially since it goes to brooklyn and has a better platform to discharge passengers.
N Broadway
The last five cars are NOT blocked. Under current bulletins, the C/R is to open the cab doors and storm doors at that position to enable customers to move freely through the length of the train.
In general, it takes two trains to completely clear South Ferry station of the rush hour crowds when a Barberi-class boat docks.
Also during rush hour, the Barberi-class boats usually arrive back-to-back, not seperated by a Kennedy-class boat.
The benifit is that the geese won't be tring to block your subsidies, when they finally get to there office.
I read earlier that a 4 track terminal for South Ferry would solve capacity problems. Maybe but not physicaly possible. Remember, South Ferry is built next to the water, a few feet from the seawall. Even converting to an island platform would be too costly, trying to keep the water from the harbor from pouring in. And personally, I'd prefer having the Lex Ave trains running to South Ferry on the inner loop. If you want to catch your ferry, I'd rather walk up the stairs than run the legnth of Battery Park to catch my boat, especially after a long day of work. The inner loop can easily have the walls torn down, install columns and the one door per car problem is solved. I even noticed a new entrance built at South Ferry. This can be used as a transfer point for Lex and 7 Ave trains without having to use the 42 St Shuttle all the way uptown. But then again, this transfer may end up being useless anyway. No need for mid-day 5 trains to serve South Ferry. < 6 > trains from Pelham Bay Park can serve mid-days and rush hours, (6) Parkchester trains can still turn at Bklyn Bridge. Late Nights and weekends, all 6 service can run to South Ferry. The only change to implement is running 5 trains during rush hours only to Brooklyn or even, Keep 5 trains to Atlantic Ave mid-days, Flatbush Ave rush hours, and running Dyre to East 180 all other times.
The 6 can't fit along with the 4 and 5 south of Brooklyn Bridge. There are only two tracks and they're filled up by the 4 and 5 during rush hours.
The only way for there to be rush hour East Side service to South Ferry is by reducing service to Brooklyn.
Collette Erricsson of NYC Transit will present "Challenges in Historic Preservation at NYC Transit" at MIT on Monday, September 30 from 12:30-2:00pm in Room 7-431, 77 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge.
This is part of the MIT Building Technology Program Seminar Series, sponsored by MIT's Departments of Architecture, Civil and Environmental Engineering, and Mechanical Engineering.
Anyone interested in going email me privately and we'll meet up at my office near the Kendall Square/MIT Red Line station and proceed to the classroom.
Looks like a commercial shoot or publicity photo at the Transit Museum, if you ask me.
That was taken some time ago. There is a doctored version floating around with Bloomberg doing the chin-up.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe it was related to the effort to bring the 2012 Olympics to NYC. I think it was used as an advertising photo.
That is the only place I've seen it. I saw an ad for the DC 2012 bid on WMATA Rohr 1240 this morning. No trains in that picture though.
Yeah, but when was the photo originally taken, and does anyone know the car #? Thanks.
I don't know when, but I know where (Court Street, the Transit Museum), and I know the car number (9306, the single-unit R-33 on display at the museum).
David
Oh, I thought that was an R-33 when they were in revenue service in their original turquoise interior paint scheme. That was done at the Transit Museum? Big deal....
Notice the IND-style "COURT" lettering out the picture window :)
One of the persons in this photo is actually a retired NYCT Shop Foreman. He is responsible for giving the Rolling Stock at the NYTM TLC as well as what resides in Coney Island Yard. Can you ID him?
-Stef
Not the guy with the hard hat, is it?
It's the older gentleman on the left, next to the person standing at the door....
-Stef
Never would have guessed it.:)
I certainly can. That's Mike Hanna. I know him very well and he's a great guy. I remember going out on D-Types on summer evenings in the '70's to stretch their legs. I also remember my turn at the helm on the Brighton Express. Brother, could they get up a head of steam. Just a little getting used to the brake and controller reversed.
I certainly can. That's Mike Hanna. I know him very well and he's a great guy. I remember going out on D-Types on summer evenings in the '70's to stretch their legs. I also remember my turn at the helm on the Brighton Express. Brother, could they get up a head of steam. Just a little getting used to the brake and controller reversed.
I've always kinda envied 1227 at Branford, a BU Gate Car ... our own BMTman *loves* that car as do many others. But after school car on Arnines and more modern stuff with the stands in the "right" locations (143's are a frigging JOYSTICK under the side window in the cab) I just can't get over the mind screwage taht operating "BMT style" would bring. Granted, it's been 30 years for me since I last operated, but I still have the old mentality. D-types would make me CRAZY.
Even FREIGHT locomotives have it right, the old OTIS elevator configuration would make me absolutely schvitz ...
Big Ed didn't seem to have any problems going from R units to BMT equipment, and he ran 'em all. I see your point, though. It would be the same to me as playing on a set of timpani set up with the largest drum on the right and the smallest on the left when I've always set them up the opposite way - smallest on the right, largest on the left.
I can tell that the picture was taken inside of the R-33WF car that is in the museum.
#3 West End Jeff
Riding the LIRR to Penn this morning, the train passed the elevated portion of the 7 line that connects Hunter's Point Avenue station with Courthouse Square. My train was traveling pretty quickly so I can't be sure of what I saw, but I thought I saw a train of R142's on the 7 line, making the turn from Courthouse Sq toward Hunter's Point. Of course, it could have been a train of R62's too.
Have any 142's been used on the 7?
nope,none whatsoever.its only R62A's and redbirds.at least whats left of them.
God no, my hope is that R-142's won't hit the "7" for a very, very long time. Keep the redbirds rollin'.....
oh the Redbirds will be rolling sure,but not for much longer.once they're all gone the 7 train will be dominated by R62A's.My guess is that R142's will never run on the 7 , but when the R62A's start to be scrapped,maybe the TA will order a few hundred cars just for the 7.
I won't be so quick to assume that. The Corona Yard is prepped to receive reconstruction next year. The line is general is also going to receive a signal upgtade, indicators that point to better service.
R142A's could run on the 7, but a test proved otherwise. A set of them was running around Willets Point, but failed right on the track, prompting a tow via diesel. The biggest rumor to this cause is that the cars aren't drawing enough power from the 3rd rail. Though, who knows.
I also doubt how the TA would blow money just for 7. It's never going to happen. When it comes to orders now, it's for all or for nothing.
Right, so I say the "7" should make do with what they have for as long as they can, thus keeping the Redbirds :o)
Redbirds are gonna grow wings and fly to heaven where God will be waiting for them so he can grab a mallet and smash em to nothing.And here I thought they were gonna be sunk in the river.
>>Redbirds are gonna grow wings and fly to heaven where God will be waiting for them so he can grab a mallet and smash em to nothing.<<
Redbirds are gonna grow fins for that last swim and join Charlie the tuna and his cohorts !
Bill "Newkirk"
They better start learning how to swim, LOL
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
That's what should happen to the R-142's! Send those tin cans back to BOMBardier or Kawasucki. We all know what a nightmare the R-62/A's turned out to be....
Die Bombsuckier Die!! In all fairness, the Bombardier cars aren't half bad anymore. The ones on the (5) are allright. I did notice that the Bombardier cars don't violently bounce, sway, but actually stay calm at high speeds, unlike the R142A.
which has always been my point... in the beginning bpombardier cars are bad, but then they have a tendency to get better as time goes on.
But I can bet you dollars to doughnuts St. Louis Car Co. never had those types of problems when the R-26/36's were originally released. Sad to say, everything nowadays is built overseas and quality continues to suffer (thanks to that God-awful China free trade agreement).
Don't you mean the St Louis CRAP co.? The wonderful makers of certain cars with severe rust problems? If there's one thing I will never buy is an American auto company's product.
You take that back! They made a product far superior to anything Kawasucki or BOMBardier could roll out. See me, I'm just the opposite. You're not even old enough to drive yet. I'm reluctant to buy a foreign car, and am 100% in favor of American cars. It'll be a cold day in hell before I ever buy a rice grinder...
I stand by my words .The Kawasaki R142A's are ( somewhat) made in the USA. I'll be old enough to drive in a few months.
BTW, you can buy an american made Toyota or Honda. They have quite a few plants in America.
Then you are not a smart man (speaking of your car buying habits of couse)
Japanese car products are far superior to american cars for one reason
Not because where they are buit
But rather that GM and Ford design there cars with the leaste expensive part that is acceptable rather then use the most apropiate part of quility of part.
I had a 87 toyota cressida. Built with solid parts in ad out. (unfortunitly a dunp truck smashed into her while parked on night and totaled her) Bought a 91 buick regal, Biggest piece of crap.
The seats feel real comfortable when you first sit in them. But after an hour driving your back kills. Leaned too hard on the shifter area, it caved in. Out my arm up on the door while driving. A big arm mark
Not to mention the alternator going on all 3800 v6's at about 90k
the car is not well balanced so stoping is an adventure at highway speed. Not to mention the body lean
To make a long story short it is the specs that make a product a piece of junk. The redbirds were most likely over spec out while the r-142's are designed to be the cheapest they can be.
It is up to the mta to pay a fair amount and make sure the contractors use quility parts and materials
I would have liked to see the outcome if my '77 Lincoln Town Car ever hit that Cressida. Just because your handle is Voiceofreason, I cannot agree with your argument. I do not buy Japanese products for personal reasons as well as because I feel they are inferior quality.
Did they? Can you say R38? How 'bout R44? Even SEPTA's Silverliner III's were nicknamed "Lateliners" because St. Louis couldn't get the cars to over to Philly in time.
He's old enough to drive if he can reach the pedals with his feet.
He just hasn't accrued enough frequent orbital miles and thus his ability to learn to drive is curtailed by the goverment.
Let me explain this here. St Louis Car has made close to 50 percent of the cars currently running now. American Car and Foundry was another keeper at that. R26 and R28 carry that name. R38, R40, R40M, R42, R29, R33, and R36 carry the St Louis name. The only blunder from St Louis is the R44, which still stinks. Those are the only cars that the airbrakes have a choking sound when applied and released. SIRT R44's don't have that, and run better than mainline R44's. Kawasaki and Bombardier can never replace the legacy or quality of St Louis or ACF.
I wouldn't call the R44 a blunder. It was a new design, and St. Louis took some chances. It's performance promised to be spectacular (and it was, but the line it was supposed to run on has not yet been built). It suffered from a lot of bugs and teething pains. But it is a very nice railcar from many respects.
I compare it to the F-14 fighter jet when it first came out. Buggy, underpowered due to having an middling engine put in at first, but with more work it did better.
I couldn't have said it better myself :o)
Thank you for illustrating my point. All of the cars listed have severe rust or rotting carbon steel problems. Long live Kawasaki!!
When a Kawasucki car lasts 40 years or more like the redbirds have, I will accept your argument. We all know how crappy Japanese steel is, that's why '73 Fords had severe rust problems. If their subway cars weren't made of stainless it'd be the same scenario.
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but it isn't 1973 anymore.
'73 Fords had rust problems because Ford didn't pay attention to rustproofing their cars. The steel was fine. It was Ford's incompetence.
Ford sucks the big one... as usual. They are the worst out of all american car makers.
Ford sucks the big one... as usual. They are the worst out of all american car makers.
Then explain why my lifetime fleet average (mileage at retirement) with Ford products is 220K (my current active fleet average - five Fords - is about 130K, ranging from 22K to 158K) and have driven one past 500K. Contrast that with my lifetime GM average of 106K and Chrysler average of 170K, and my one and only Japanese car, a Honda, that was ready for the junkyard at 65K.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm very curious what you did with your Honda. I haven't been treating my '94 Civic terribly well, but it's a few hundred miles shy of 100,000 and it's in wonderful shape, aside from a handful of dents and scratches that need to be repaired. It passed its latest NYS emissions inspection with flying colors.
Ours was a '75 Civic CVCC (little orange blob, optional engine, 5 speed, with A/C) that had major oil blowby at 60K, severe paint fade, upholstery that didn't even last six months before it was tearing at the top of the back seat, and major rust by the time we sold it in 1979, despite having spent its first three years in the South (the last year was in Michigan, Illinois, and upstate New York as we moved around). We sold it at the height of the gas crisis to an officer at West Point who was going to rebuild it - he had a '76 that was also scrap but figured he could rebuild ours before the other one pooped out entirely, and he'd end up with A/C as well. My wife bought it new before we were married and was for all practical purposes the only driver (I drove it a couple of times but never liked it, preferring my '76 Dodge wagon). And back in those days she would actually pay attention to gauges and idiot lights too (she didn't pay attention to the temperature gauge on her Mustang one night a couple or three years ago... blown radiator hose... had to replace the heads and rebuild the block as a result).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is exactly what I'm talking about!!!
A lot has changed since 1975. Japanese automakers don't just make tiny econoboxes anymore. They make a wide variety of good, reliable and attractive cars. Things are different now.
Where do you come up with these statements? Why would Ford, in 1973 mind you, be buying its steel from Japan? I would think there would have still been enough American steel makers at that time for Ford to make its choice for the steel in its cars.
>>>We all know how crappy Japanese steel is, that's why '73 Fords had severe rust problems. If their subway cars weren't made of stainless it'd be the same scenario. <<<
Who's "we" in this case? You? What proof do you have that Japanese steel is crap? Do you work in the steel industry? Redbirds lasting 40 years? Yes, with rust holes the size of an adult male's fist! If that's called "lasting," then we don't have very high standards for quality.
It comes to this - in 1973 (don't ask me why) Ford decided to use Japanese steel as a cost cutting technique. You would buy that car in 1973 and by 1978, quite a few of them already had severe rust problems.
In terms of "we" I mean classic car collectors like myself. To this day I know American steel still surpasses Japanese steel by leaps and bounds. Only NOW do redbirds have holes the size of a man's fist (and I don't know where you get your information - I don't see a single redbird on the "7" with that severe a rust problem), if those cars were made with Japanese steel, you would have seen holes that size 20 or 30 years ago.
The only thing that I can conclude here is that you have no idea what you're talking about. Except that you don't like the Japanese, and you have very little knowledge of what American industry was doing in 1973.
For example, was it the steel that was bad? Or the rustproofing treatment Ford used? Ford's assembly line made a lot of mistakes.
Fortunately, we learn. Te Japanese learned from us and went on to build some great cars. The we finally learned from them and now we're doing a lot better.
Do yourself a favor. Read a little about W. Edward Deming and Kaoru Ishikawa, and then come back and post here. Maybe then you'll at least sound a little more informed.
I can tell you and Flyerlover are biased TOWARDS Japanese, why I'll never know. I have no interest in researching the Japanese car industry. Those bastards caused the demise of the original Volkswagen beetle in this country by making a cheaper product. I suggest you research Datsun's history. Only 52 Datsuns were sold in 1958, the car had bad brakes, severe vibration, and the hood would fly up without warning. Only after Yutaka Katayama came to this country and motivated his sales team, did sales slowly start to increase and Volkswagen's sales decrease.
"I have no interest in researching the Japanese car industry."
So you like being ignorant? Hey, it's a free country.
"I suggest you research Datsun's history. Only 52 Datsuns were sold in 1958, the car had bad brakes, severe vibration, and the hood would fly up without warning. Only after Yutaka Katayama came to this country and motivated his sales team, did sales slowly start to increase and Volkswagen's sales decrease."
And what did Volkswagen do in return, besides sit on their asses and whine?
A lot more than that happened. Betweeen 1958 and the early 1980's, the Japanese auto makers learned how to make cars that were affordable and had a lot fewer defects than American cars had. They learned that from Deming (Oops, you were supposed to look that up).
In the 1980's, Ishikawa, a Deming disciple, taught it to us. Among other places, Ishikawa's methods made their way to Hughes Aircraft Co. (which is why I jknow about it), and helped Hughes build spacecraft which lasted twice as long as predicted coming out of the assembly high bay.
Fortunately, Ford, GMand Chrysler started paying attention, too.
That's why my Ford Focus 2000 is a pretty decent car today.
And, by the way, Volswagen Beetles are back - and they look nifty and work pretty well. The new microbus is out too. Are you going to buy one?
Perhaps if the U.S. Government had funded VW as they did the Japanese car industry in the '70's they would have had an even greater stronghold in this country at that time. Will I buy a new Beetle or Microbus? Of course not. I'm a purist and the only Volkswagens which sit in my driveway have air-cooled engines which reside in the back. The new Beetle and new Microbus are just mere shadows of their former selves. I rather have the genuine article or nothing at all.
"Perhaps if the U.S. Government had funded VW as they did the Japanese car industry in the '70's they would have had an even greater stronghold in this country at that time."
Funding the Japanese car industry? Care to elaborate?
Both Germany and Japan were the beneficiaries of very generous assistance programs after WWII. Do you recall the Marshall Plan?
VW's slippage in the market had to do with VW. When VW fixed its problems, VW sold more cars.
Incidentally, my father has driven a series of Rabbits and Golfs and really likes them.
( in juvinile voice) I like my playstation and my mommy likes her honda Pilot. My mommy wants to buy me a Volkswagen Passat in 3 months.
(Smiles)
I'm a purist and the only Volkswagens which sit in my driveway have air-cooled engines
I'm a purist and the only vehicles that sit in my driveway are powered with oats and hay. I also make sure never to fill the engine with beef-a-reeno, which leads to foul smelling exhaust.
How is that any different from your stance?
Why do you challenge my personal preferences Pig? Do I tell you what type of car you should drive? Why do you give a rat's ass? Why do you mock me? That's just mean-spiritedness masked as humor. I despise the lowbrow analogy...
Cause It's funto mock you!
Hey Flyerlover, isn't it time for Sesame Street?
No, barney!!
There's nothing wrong with lovingly restoring a VW beetle and then driving it.
But not everyone is up to the task. You have a special affinity and talent for it.
There is something wrong in wanting to sacrifice the convenience and safety of millions of passengers every day, especially those with disabilities, for the sake of running old equipment on the subway.
MTA's use of modern subway cars helps all of us, including those who would have difficulty riding one. And MTA can no longer afford to maintain several different classes of subway car to serve your affinity for nosytalgia.
Your affinity for nostalgia can best be served at the Transit Museum. At Branford, if I am not mistaken, you can even drive at R21 subway car around the track.
Yeah, but you know as well as I do, it just is not the same. I wouldn't be so opposed to the fan trips if they 1.) Weren't so expensive (I consider $35.00 quite steep) and 2.) they used equipment other than the D-types (I mean they're nice and all, but I think we'd all like to see a little variation). I don't consider running Redbirds jeopardizing the safety of passengers. As I said before, the Redbirds on the "7" seem to have alot of life left in them.
"I don't consider running Redbirds jeopardizing the safety of passengers"
But MTA cannot afford to keep maintaining them in diminishing numbers, and they are not suited for a lot of people with different kinds of disabilities. The R142 and R143 are designed for that.
And what was safe in 1965 is barely adequate today. Time to move on.
Actually, the belief that the 7's Redbirds have a lot of life in them is a red herring.
You can forget the 'birds rusting carbon steel bodies that are pretty much rotting them away. Better to toss them now, or rahter face the unnecessary maintenance.
According to your posts, you would like to extend your personal preferences regarding rotbirds to the rest of us. If you want to drive an old VW Beetle, go ahead, but the R-142 is far better than anything that St. Louis CRAP came out with.
That's just one man's opinion. You'll change your tune once the R-142's have been out for awhile. You'll wish St. Louis Car Co. were still in business.
[That's just one man's opinion. You'll change your tune once the R-142's have been out for awhile. You'll wish St. Louis Car Co. were still in business].
You may be right, but, as Marcus Crassus (Sir Lawrence Olivier) said to Glabrus (in the movie, Spartacus):
"Only time will solve that mystery".
That won't happen. The R-142s have already been out for a while and they've only improved since first delivery.
I guess you haven't ridden the 5 or the 2 in the last several years. While the R33s weren't too bad, the R26/28/29 cars had plenty of rust and looked terrible. My home subway lines are the 2 and the 5, so I think I have a pretty good idea where I'm getting my information from.
I still doubt your opinion on Japanese steel and I can't understand why you hate Japan so much.
Perhaps if you spent some time over there during World War II, you'd understand. Never forget Pearl Harbor!
Pearl Harbor happened over 60 years ago. Today's Japan is not the Japan of the 1930s and 40s, just like today's Germany, Italy and Spain are not the same as they were in the 30s and 40s. I don't hear you going off about "how horrible Germany is" even though they did some really horrible things in the 30s and 40s too. Let's not forget that. In fact you seem to like Volkswagens. Wasn't the Volkswagen Beetle originally intended to be Hitler's "car for the people?" Not that I have anything against the Bug, mind you. But even though Hitler murdered millions of people, including six million of my people, Jews, I don't hold it against today's German people. I would gladly take a trip to Germany to ride on its cities' trams and subways as well as on the many interesting mainline trains, including the high-speed ICE. Same thing goes for Japan. I hear the Shinkansen is one sweet ride and I would jump at the chance to ride one, no question about that. A few of its cities have monorails, used in regular transit service.
Also, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor 37 years before I was born. It wouldn't have been possible for me to have spent time in Japan in 1941-45 during World War 2. Also, WW2 ended 57 years ago. It's not going on now and Japan isn't planning another attack on U.S. soil, as far as I know.
You're missing the point, son. Being of German ancestry I requested not be stationed in Germany. While I mourn the horrible events that happened there I feel no personal responsibility for the atrocities that occured in Germany at that time. DON'T you dare go there with that! My contempt for Japan stems from the fact that they deliberately without warning attacked U.S. shores, and in my opinion are no better than the current Taliban enemy we now face. Maybe 60 years from now, we'll be funding Afghanistan's economy and that will be another superpower.
"I don't see a single redbird on the "7" with that severe a rust problem"
I dont think i have seen one without that
6thought you guys were talkin' bout the 7 train... oh well.. check back later...
Thank you!!! Post WWII American industry quality will always rival any other country!! Sadly, it seems it will never be imitated again....;-(
It's also key to remember Japan wouldn't be so 'powerful' if we Americans didn't instigate them to build so quickly. Anyone remember our friend, Commodore Perry?
"We all know what a nightmare the R-62/A's turned out to be...."
You're the only one who knows about that. A few of us want a railfan window, maybe, but the rest of us like them just fine.
To make everyone (including you) happy, I suggest you buy scuba gear and take regular trips to see the Reefbirds to your heart's content. You can also visit them at the Transit Museum and add replicas to a model train set at home. Add some posters to your living room, and you're all set. You can have as much Redbird fun as you want without disturbing New Yorkers' commute.
The R62/A were hardly a nightmare. They were one of the best rolling stocks I've seen on the IRT, well aside from the Low-V's...
well,they were in the begining a major head ache.....
I forgot about some of the minor issues encountered on both versions of the R62. Of course, they were dealth with promptly.
Yes, that seems to be the agenda, at least until Corona is actually rehabbed. Then the MTA will have a new slew of options.
Signal reconstruction will mean puting in single-shot GTs, with false nameplates. Sure the sign says GT 15 but it won't clear until your at 6-8 mph. Also the MTA would scrap the line instead of ordering special equipment.
Why would the power there be any different than power elsewhere in the system? Redbirds ran everywhere, so why not Vultures?
Another question - I know this has been posed before but I need to jog my memory - can the bulkhead signs on R142/R142a be made to light up green? They can fake purple on the #7 by dedicating a group to Corona Yard and installing a blue filter between the glass and the sign LEDs. A cheap way to do this is to use blue cellophane (available at any arts & crafts store like Pearl), and glue it to the inside of the cover with rubber cement. It would then create the proper shade of purple to use for the Flushing line.
wayne
No they cant.
I think the did test out the R-142's on the 7 Line, but something wasn't good with the third rail.
-AcelaExpress2005
Only once. A test was perfored at Willets Ponint to see if they work. It failed, though the cause as to why is very vague. The most believed reason is that the cars couldn't draw enough power from the 3rd rail.
As long as there are sufficient R62 type cars assigned, which are arriving from other lines as R142's replace Redbirds, Corona Yard can remain a single-subway car type yard. This makes maintenance easier and quicker and improves reliability. While not quite as passenger-friendly as the R142, the R62 design is much friendlier than the Redbird and its manufacturer is still around to help the TA with technical support if needed.
The way I see it shaping up is that all of the 1600, 1700 and 1800 series R62a along with half of the 2000 and 2100 singles will all wind up at Corona Yard. Some Redbirds may survive a few more years, although at the rate that they're rusting, that could be doubtful.
wayne
I saw a TV program last evening concerning G gage "garden" model railroading. They featured a layout in Pomona which is 100' x 300' (close to the size of a football field) supporting 21 trainsets running at the same time on four main loops. I had never heard of this gage before. According to the program, this particular location was started in 1922 and until 1996 all of the trainsets were custom made. In 1996, G gage model trains became commercially available. Now more than 200 volunteers help maintain this layout.
The Pomona site may be the largest in the world, and since it is outdoors with growing vegetation (carefully trimmed bushes to represent trees) it takes a lot of maintenance. It is a far cry from the Lionel train on a single loop under the Xmas tree. Anyone aware of other sites in the U.S.?
Tom
There's one in Philadelphia at the Morris Arboretum.
Mark
My understanding is that G scale or gauge is the same as the old number 1 gauge that fell from favor when O (actually zero) gauge became popular with Lionel and other tinplate manufacturers.
A century ago, tinplate manufacturers such as Marklin produced trains in 0,1,2,3, and 4 gauges in both live steam and electric versions the smaller "letter" gauges/scales only came later.
Tom, your post on this subject is timely, since the Los Angeles County Fair opens today through Sunday, September 29; and this railroad is on the fair grounds.
There was a thread on this model railroad earlier this summer, on the occasion of it being featured on the local PBS program "Life and Times", hosted by everyone's favorite, Huell Howser. It was an enjoyable series, despite Howser's cloying, moronic personality. I hope to visit the fair, if Metrolink provides service to it.
>>> on the occasion of it being featured on the local PBS program "Life and Times", hosted by everyone's favorite, Huell Howser <<<
I probably saw a re run of the show you saw, which is the "really amazing" show that follows the local affairs program "Life and Times." BTW, this will be my 40th September in Los Angeles and I have not yet gone to the County fair. I will put on my list of things to do right after riding on the 2nd Avenue Subway. I don't think Metrolink stops there but there are express buses from downtown L.A.
Tom
Anyone aware of other sites in the U.S.?
Illinois Railroad Museum
In 1996, G gage model trains became commercially available.
LGB has been producing G gauge since 1968, and American prototype equipment has been readily available from other manufacturers since the mid-1980s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a Garden Railroading magazine available at most news stands. About 6 years ago, a friend & co-worker of mine moved to New Hyde Park. After 3-4 weeks, my wife & I were invited to his house for a BBQ. Suprisingly, it was not to see the house but to a membership meeting of the Long Island Garden Railroad Society. He was dedicating his newly re-built backyard railway.
I must adnmit that they offer many advantages over other O & S gauges. For one thing, your space is not as limited. You can run indoors and outdoors. You can integrate your RR with the landscape and you can annoy the shit out of your neighbors with loud steam whistles. Only drawback is the weather. My friend had a problem with racoons taking goldfish from his pond that his RR was built around but that was not a RR problem. Fortunately, no coon dropings on the tracks.
Since I have a fair-sized backyard, before I moved to O gauge, I mused about a gargen railway. In the end, I decided that it was a West Coast or a southern hobby - something for later, after retirement. Somewhere in my collection, downstairs, I have a videotape of 5 nice sized garden railroads from the LI Garden railway Society. If I locate it I'll be happy to make you a copy if you are interested.
>>> I have a videotape of 5 nice sized garden railroads from the LI Garden railway Society. If I locate it I'll be happy to make you a copy if you are interested. <<<
Thanks for the offer Steve, but I am not so much an enthusiast for garden railroading, as awestruck by the amount of work to build and maintain the one in Pomona which was shown on TV. A Google search turned up several sites regarding them.
Tom
wow i will be there "on my way back home 9 16 02 "
new york ny my home & birthplace 11 -03 -51 .......lol !!
enjoy an ride from the hempstead lirr station ...
see the last of the redbirds ( sigh ) ...........
catching the DOG ( greyhound )
oh well i have a lot of work ahead of me
( shooting digital stills 8 mm video ) .......
Finally someone a bit older than me. 11-06-1951
yea by 50 ..............! ..............?
.....................lol
Huh?
You are 3 days older than I am.
You're almost exactly five years older than me. My birthday is Vov. 19.
i beat you all 9/27/50
Can't wait to see what you manage to video/record/take pics of...
Promise me you won't damage the R62A's on the 7, but I can't blame ya if you do....
Why'd you leave NYC in the first place....Living in LA.....traitor....;-)
Have you waterproofed your cameras yet for that ride on the Reef Express?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Spotted above the new wheelchair ramp to the uptown platform in Times Square. Somebody hurry up and go take a picture before they fix it!
THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY BRONX EXTENSION LIVES!
Here are my plans. Get to the NB platform at 86th at 9:00. That'll get me to 242nd at 9:30. Hang out for 20 minutes; it looks like the first train to South Ferry is departing at 9:50. Loop through South Ferry and go back home to 86th.
If anybody else is going to be at 242nd, or wants to join me for the ride up to 86th, let me know. Otherwise, I'll be wearing the Palm t-shirt.
I'll probably meet you at Chambers. I hope we have a big crew there!
--Brian
Who cares about the big crew? I hope we have a big window, not one of those tiny ones into a transverse cab.
Are T/O's allowed to fold transverse cabs in half? Is it even worth asking?
No and no.
My response is yes and yes...I asked one guy on the 6 in a 62a transverse if I could ride the loop and he said ok but stay low. Then he offered to close his cab door (half cab now) and of course I said yes that would be awesome thanks.
Yeah, it might be easy on the loop but not in revenue service like that. I once had a similar situation on an R68 where the T/O said he would if it weren't against the rules and if there was a way to lock the door in place.
I hope the crew on this first train is railfan friendly.
Uh...R68/A's are full cabs (built that way), and there is no way to keep the door in.
I thought they were originally single units with half width cabs.
Nope...R-68As (and R-68s) were built as single units (though they're all in four-car sets now, except for R-68s 2916-2924, which are still single units for the Franklin Avenue Shuttle). Each car has a full-width cab at the #1 end and a half-width cab at the #2 end.
R-62As (and R-62s), however, were built as single units (though many are in five-car sets now). Each car has a half-width cab at each end, with the #1 cab designed to be convertible to a full-width cab, which has been done on the cars at the ends of the five-car sets.
David
On R-62s the door will lock in the half-width place.
I was under the impression that could not be done. Thanks for informing me of this. It is rather hard to see through that little window.
My first post on Subtalk was about how they can knock down / open transverse cabs. It really is an easy(er) process than one would think.
Just got back from South Ferry. The T/O opened the cab at South Ferry and even let a NYT reporter push her way to the front.
(Just got back from South Ferry. The T/O opened the cab at South Ferry and even let a NYT reporter push her way to the front.)
I was there also, in the first car. I got to Chambers Street about 11:30, and hung out with the growing train on the platform. There was another NYT reporter there who I talked to, some ERA guys, some TA guys, a lot of representatives of the contractors. Then I joined the cheering crowd in the first car of the first train. Ironically, I had never been south of Cortlant on that particular line before.
The past week has provided numerous opportunities to relive the horror, but I turned off the tube and skipped the ceremonies. My wife, who was even closer than I was (three blocks vs. five, and with a clear view) volunteered for a business trip out of the country. So this was my 9/11 remembrance. A proud day for the TA, and infrastructure and transit in general.
After exiting at Chambers, I walked over and down Church to Ground Zero, then down into the BMT Cortlandt Street station. The guy on duty there told me I was the first person, then saw my pass and said I didn't really count as a person. I said I was off duty, and thus did count as a person. So in addition riding the first train to South Ferry in a long time, I was the first person to board a train at Cortlandt Street in a long time. It was probably the first Q train at Cortlandt Street in a long, long time.
The first train in Cortlandt was a W...arrived at that station at 12:03 approx. The conductor announced that we would be the first train in. I was in last car tho...
Sorry it was a bit too crowded for all of us to meet. I was one of the small handful who got on before Chambers -- in my case (and one other's), at 242nd. I was in the Palm t-shirt, if that helps identify me.
(I was in the Palm t-shirt, if that helps identify me.)
I'm not that observant. What did stand out was all the TA guys, and all the guys from Tully-Pegno.
I got back home to Scranton, PA at 5am because my father and I walked around Ground Zero after our second ride through South Ferry. We saw the new entrances to the BMT Cortland St station. We walked down there and I got a new Sept 2002 Map from the booth. I think we were one of the first people to ever walk down those stairs. All in all we had a great time riding the first REAL PUBLIC REVENUE train through South Ferry. Oh yeah, I took many a digital photo of the train, South Ferry, Cortland (BMT), and the new exhibit at GroundZero along Church Street which shows two models of the new PATH station at Ground Zero. I will post those photos on Tuesday or Wednesday. We could see that they have already started building the new PATH station. I have photsos of that too.
---Brian
http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains
Here's an article about it. This may have been the NY Times reporter on the train with us:
Old Service, Old Stops Restored on West Side
By THOMAS J. LUECK
NY Times
9/15/2002
After a year of disjointed and slow service for riders in Brooklyn, the West Side of Manhattan and the Bronx, subway service returned to a more normal schedule this morning on the 1, 2, 3 and 9 lines.
The four lines were disrupted when more than a thousand feet of subway tunnel near ground zero collapsed or was pierced by falling beams in the World Trade Center attack. As a result, three stations — Cortlandt Street, Rector Street and South Ferry — were closed, and service was curtailed on Manhattan express tracks.
Transit officials said repairs to the damaged tunnel have been completed far ahead of schedule, although the work has not included restoration of the Cortlandt Street station for the 1 and 9 trains. Passengers on those lines are to bypass Cortlandt Street. That platform, which was directly under the trade center concourse, will be closed indefinitely, transit officials said.
But today, 1 and 9 trains began stopping again at Rector Street and going on to the southern tip of Manhattan at South Ferry. Transit officials said express service was restored on the No. 2 line, and full service also resumed on the No. 3 trains between New Lots Avenue in Brooklyn and 148th Street in Manhattan.
In addition, service resumed this morning at the Cortlandt Street station for the N and R lines. It had been suspended since the attack.
It remained unclear whether New York City Transit would encounter problems as the West Side returned to normal service. But the agency's engineers have been operating test runs through the repaired Lower Manhattan tunnel for more than a week, and more than 50 transit authority officials, subway buffs and regular riders made an inaugural run last night on a No. 1 train from the Chambers Street station to the reopened South Ferry station, arriving just after midnight.
"It is just great it have it back," said Stuart Shenkman, a employee of the New York City Housing Authority who made the inaugural run after being forced to alter his commute through Lower Manhattan for a year. "It's a real relief," he said.
Mathew Kessler, a mortician from Lawrence, N.Y., was also on the train. "It's significant that they were able to do this so quickly," he said. "It was faster than anyone expected."
Transit officials were able to resume service today more than a year earlier than had been originally projected. But in so doing, they rejected or postponed larger plans for redevelopment.
Among the more ambitious proposals was to rebuild the 1 and 9 line along a different route, perhaps farther west, to better serve Battery Park City. Some planners also argued for a grander renovation of the South Ferry Station, which has long been an anachronism because its platform is too small to accommodate any more than the first five cars of a modern subway.
Um, wasn't the pushy reporter a woman? A woman named Thomas?
No. If you weren't so concerned about a big window and not a big crew, you would have seen that there were two NY Times officials on the train, the guy was a reporter and the lady was a photographer. Also, please pick up copies of the NY Times (Sunday and/or Monday) so we can see whose photos made it into the paper. And by "whose" I mean human, station, train, or otherwise.
---Brian
No photos in the online edition. I didn't see the article at all in the print edition.
BTW, Pete Sampras was a no-show :)
I've been checking the pdf schedules at the MTA website since last weekend to see when they're posting the new Q and F line schedules. Previously the posted schedules have mostly been from December 2001, including the Q and F ones.
A couple of days ago I see they finally put up new schedules. September 2002? Nope. May 2002--more recent but not current.
Odd.
I agree entirely! At the customer service area at Jay St, they also only have May 2002 as the newest.
Sorry to say this, May 2002 schedules has around since late June.
G'mar Tov!
---Dave
It doesn't start for another 49 hours, are you already looking forward to it?
Tommorow is Shabbos, so no posting. Sunday, I'll be getting ready for Yom Kippur so I don't know if I'll have time to stop by.
Anyways, I'm not allowed to fast (medical reasons).
To all SubTalkers who are observing the High Holy Days - yes, have a good fast - it's not easy, it's not fun, but it is for good reasons.
L'Shana Tova to all.
It certainly teaches discipline and that there are more important things to worry about than food.
I post on Shabbat although I do shut down the computer on Rosh Hashannah, Yom Kippur, Passover, and sometimes the other Shalosh Regalim.
Yom Kippur isn't the only fast day.
First Born comes to mind...
There are 7. 6 if you're not the first born.
This is a difficult religion, but at least we're not guilted about sex and anything else that's remotely fun.
But most people only observe Yom Kippur. The second most observed fast is Tisha B'Av, which is the only other 25 hour fast. The other 5 fasts are (IIRC):
Gedaliah (day after 2nd day Rosh Hashannah)
10th of Tevet
Esther
First Born (only for first born males)
17th of Tammuz
<< Gedaliah (day after 2nd day Rosh Hashannah)>>
Who can eat after all that food!
<< First Born (only for first born males)>>
It's not uncommon on Orthodox synagogues and/or communities to make a siyum (celebration) that day (e.g., for finishing one of the chapters of the Talmud) because fasting is not required on the day of a siyum.
I know but you either have to attend the siyum or fast although I am not Orthodox and often wind up doing neither.
This makes no sense to me, but I've heard the claim that, since the custom on Erev Pesach is to attend a siyum and not fast, that, even if one does not attend a siyum, fasting is still not necessary. As I said, it makes no sense to me, and if I overslept and missed the siyum I probably would fast -- but you do have someone on whom to rely.
I have asked the question to other people in the past. It really doesn't matter too much to me since I am not Orthodox and often my schedule on the day of the first seder is such that if I fast, I will not make it through the night.
It was my understanding that you went to temple and participated in learning of some sort. It was this learning that allowed you a reprieve from the fast.
Fast or time in temple, either way, not a bad price to pay to be the oldest child.
Josh
If you did fast, wouldn't god keep you alive?
People who are not healthy enough to fast are NOT ALLOWED to fast.
We're not crazy in that we don't believe in medicine. All laws (except for one's belief in the one God) may be broken to save a human life.
People who are not healthy enough to fast are NOT ALLOWED to fast.
Unfortunately, in some Orthodox congregations it is the rabbi, not the doctors, who decide if a person is healthy enough to fast. Several years ago I had an Orthodox employee who was about seven months pregnant at Yom Kippur; she had been home on bed rest for two months because of diabetes and other complications of pregnancy, and was on several medications to prevent early delivery. Although her doctors had told her she should not fast and that she MUST take her medication without interruption, her rabbi ordered her to fast, including skipping her medication, and to attend services because (paraphrasing here) "if she was healthy enough to be pregnant she was healthy enough to come to shul". She did as her rabbi instructed, until early afternoon when she was taken by ambulance from shul to the hospital; fortunately, she and her daughter, born eight weeks premature, came through it OK. She and her husband have since joined another congregation and I understand are now the parents of twin boys as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The rabbi was obviously wrong. Except for the three cardinal sins (and failing to fast on Yom Kippur is not among them), one is required (not allowed -- required) to violate any mitzvah, positive or negative, to save a life. Any rabbi who claims otherwise is -- pardon the pun -- dead wrong.
But you know what? I have trouble believing your story at all. There is never an obligation to go to shul. Men have an obligation to pray three times a day (four times on shabbos and holidays, five times on Yom Kippur), and that prayer is preferably, but not obligatorily, done as part of a minyan. Women don't even have that obligation. There's absolutely no reason the rabbi would have told this woman to go to shul, since there's no need for any woman (or man) to go to shul at all. If the woman insisted that she wanted a minyan, the rabbi would probably have tried to assemble a minyan in her home. I could imagine a rabbi making a serious misjudgment of a medical case, but I can't imagine a rabbi forgetting that nobody needs a medical exemption from shul to begin with.
I'm glad to hear the end of the story, in any case.
The rabbi was obviously wrong. ... one is required ... to violate any mitzvah, positive or negative, to save a life. ... There is never an obligation to go to shul.
Absolutely true. But this woman and her husband (one of the perennial Yeshiva students - if she didn't work they would starve) were apparently pressured into believing that she must go and that she must fast. Knowing her, and having met her husband on a couple of occasions, I would say that they were more likely than most people to be easily led by someone with a strong personality; certainly I know that, in the aftermath of what happened, they could not understand how someone whom they revered as much as they did their rabbi could make such a mistake, and indeed it took them quite some time to admit to themselves that it was even possible for their rabbi to err. Fortunately, they did eventually come to that realization, and have learned that they must think and analyze what is told them, from whatever source, rather than blindly accepting it without question.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fortunately, they did eventually come to that realization, and have learned that they must think and analyze what is told them, from whatever source, rather than blindly accepting it without question.
Luckily, it worked out well in the end. It has to be remembered that whatever religion anyone is, that basically all the "laws and rules" are manmade. Anyone can argue that there is devine intervention in those laws, but when it boils down to it, they are still manmade. It is up to each individual to decide what is right or wrong. No religion should be so strict (if properly followed) to allow a woman and child to die just to follow "the rules" (as it has already been pointed out with the Jewish religion not allowing that to happen).
Judaism traditionally professes that the laws are not manmade (well, some of them are, but fasting on Yom Kippur is not among them), but that we are expected to live by them -- not to die by them.
Extra Orthodox Rabbis and Ministers from Church of Christ, Scientist...should all receive Redbird Undercar duty for six months.
CCS has 'faith practioners' who substitute for qualified medical professionals. In the Episcopal Church of the USA we pray for the Grace of the Lord and what modern medical science can bring us. I'm a living and walking example. CI Peter celebrates with the crew our September 17th anniversary...just takes faith, commitment and perserverance. Anyone, no matter how commited to orders of faith and denies another access to available medical service is a murderer first class.
what exactly is an "extra orthodox rabbi"??
and where did you hear that there are jews who don't believe in medicine??
maybe you're confusing judaism with another religion....
All laws (except for one's belief in the one God) may be broken to save a human life.
You misspelled "must."
And there are three exceptions: idolatry, murder of another, and various forbidden sexual relations.
For all you who aren't pregnant, have an easy fast. And stay away from ther subways tomorrow. It's not safe to ride on an empty stomach.
But it's more fun, no?
:0)
If you're observant enough to fast on Yom Kippur, you definitely would NOT be riding the subway! Sabbath rules are in effect on Yom Kippur, as they are on Rosh Hoshanah, Succoth, Simcha Torah (sp?), the first and last two days of Passover, among others. That's why alternate side is suspended on those days: so the observant are not required to move their cars, which would violate the Sabbath.
On some Saturdays, I HAVE observed Orthodox riding the outside-fare-zone elevators between the mezzanine level of 181st Street on the A (which connects via pedestrian tunnel to a number of synagogues on Bennett Avenue) and street level at Fort Washington Avenue, where many Orthodox live. The steep cliff running between the two avenues make this setup necessary. Apparently it's okay to ride an electronic conveyance (in this case, the elevator) on the Sabbath provided there's someone else available to press the button. And since the elevators are outside the fare zone, no money or activation of turnstiles is involved.
For what it's worth, I used yesterday's holiday to railfan. The Q express was very empty; and riding buses along Brighton Avenue and Kings Highway was a pleasure due to most of the stores being closed. Many stores on both those streets are open on Saturdays (unlike 13th Avenue or Avenues J and M), but apparently shut down for the High Holy Days.
However, the rush-hour trip home from Herald Square to Queens via the N and 7 seemed as crowded as ever.
If you're observant enough to fast on Yom Kippur, you definitely would NOT be riding the subway!
Well, I wouldn't say that... I'm Reform, so I wouldn't have any problems using the subway if I needed to (no subway here, I drive to shul... walking four miles each way might be good exercise but I'm not that ambitious) but I do observe the fast. My wife even said she felt funny NOT fasting this year (she's been diagnosed with diabetes and has to keep her sugar level stable).
David,
In theory, if one (under Jewish law) were held in capitivity and ordered to worship an idol under direct threat of death for refusing to do so; would it or would it not be permisable to do as ordered to prevent being killed. As long as the person doing so was only worshiping the idol to say his life. In his heart and mind, he still retained his true faith.
Actually, with some the fantanic fundimentalists in the world today, that senario is not so far fetched.
Off, Off subject:
The example in Danial (Chapter 3, I think) is of Shadrack, Mishack and Abendigo refusing to bow down to the idol or the king as their god. They rightfully refused, and were thrown into a furnace and were miraculously rescued through the flames by the Angel of the Lord who "Seemed like a Son of Man." That was in fact Meshioch (Jesus Christ before His human incarnation.
Have a good High Holiday.
It's incredibly offensive to Jews to say that a Moshiach character in the Hebrew Bible was "Jesus Christ before his human incarnation."
I don't know if going through the motions (and no more) of worshiping idols is considered idolatry for the purposes of the "big three." My guess is, I'm afraid, that it is, but that's just a guess.
Also, I believe that Jewish law exempts children (pre-Bar or Bat-Mitzvah) from fasting. David Greenberger or others familiar with this are invited to clarify if needed.
Anyone who us under the age of Bar or Bat Mitzvah is not obligated to follow such laws, although Rabbis do believe that children should "practice" as they get older so they will be somewhat more ready come the time they are obligated to fast. I went without food all morning one year and nothing but water the year before I became a Bar Mitzvah. My first year of fasting still wasn't very good though, especially the last few hours. It took me about 2 years to finally get a routine on how to prepare and more importantly, what to do from the time the morning service ends (around 2 in the afternoon) until the conclusion of the fast abuot 6 hours later. Those 6 hours are the hardest and out of those 6, the last 60-120 minutes are the hardest of those.
Nothing like soybean milkshakes and bags of pure veggie oil french fries to bust a fast....doesn't cut the meat/dairy observance. CI Peter
Correct. Health comes before religion. My in-laws used to fast until it was discovered my father-in-law was diabetic. My wife used to follow Passover rules, but when she was pregnant, her ob/gyn said it was OK to violate Passover because pregnant women need a lot of fiber in their diet that only chometz could provide.
It's not a problem for me, because my family NEVER observed Yom Kippur or Passover rules- I HATE tuna, horseradish, chopped liver and especially matzoh. Without getting into a whole religious allegory, I do find it amusing how every year right after sunset at the end of Yom Kippur, there's always a mob scene at the Chinese buffet in my neighborhood.
Is it a kosher Chinese Buffet? Or is that the irony...
Heck, I have Kosher Chinese, Kosher Italian, Kosher Pizza but the Kohser Nathans closed up shop and left.
Well, so much for Kosher CHEESEburgers :)
No, the local Chinese buffet is treife. What Jewish people are left in my neighborhood (replaced by Chinese, Koreans and Indians as the old-time Jews die or move away) are mostly Conservative and Reform. The local supermarkets have packaged Hebrew National cold cuts and Empire frozen chicken, but that's about it.
I couldn't help but notice the previous Saturday (the first day) that when the morning service let out of the local Conservative shul that a lot of the congregants STILL went across the street to the card store to get their Lotto fix. Some things are SACRED.
Do you think a Kosher Chinese buffet would be open for business right after sundown at the end of a major Jewish holiday? Doubtful-
Right after sundown following Yom Kippur or Pesach? Absolutely. Everybody wants to eat then.
Thankyou 4thAvenueLocal!!!
'If you did fast, would God keep you alive?' Well put. CI Peter
Saturday 14th September joint fieldtrips both in NYC and here in London!,despite the time difference I look forward to reading reports from both events .Is this a notable first gents/ladies??!
oohh..and a bottle of snapple is now £1.29 here in London
mmm Ruby Red time!
regards
Rob
Mandarin Madness please Rob:) See you tomorrow.
Simon
Hi to all here in Subtalk land. I've been gone a while trying to focus on school(long into short I miss you guys). Obviously where in day 5 on the Stillwell rehab and frankly Im having a problem with the way service is set up. 1. Why does the N have to be cut back to Brooklyn? I notice it wasn't cut back in November. Theres no reason N passengers have to suffer. 2. Why cant the W run express from 57 street to Brooklyn all times(without changing weekday service)? After the Q diamond goes to rest, is there still too much Q locals to add extra subway service? 3. Am I the only one whos happy too see the R run express at some point in time?
Not on to South Ferry. I notice theres talks of having South Ferry rehab to become a 2 track terminal. Now, as an American citizen I must ask, what the hell is the people of the MTA thinking? Whats wrong with a loop station. If you want to rehab the station extend the platform thats it and add a transfer to the N, R, 4 and 5. That station is in damn near perfect condition. You wanna rehab something, go to Chambers street on the J, M and Z.
I think the problem with the loop is that it's too inefficient.
A loop is very efficient in that it turns trains very fast. The only problem with SF is that it can platform a half of train. Other than that I feel it's very efficient in turning trains fast, and it is in great shape. I hope any plans they have for the station will not involve destroying the old station.
I think with the plan of a 2-track terminal that Sciguy mentioned, it probably will be demolished.
Isn't the half-platform problem caused by the loop it couldn't the platform be extended?
I doubt the old station would be removed. A new terminal would probably be built adjacent to the existing loop station, so the loop could remain in service during construction. Once the new terminal opens, the loop would remain for storage and turning 5 trains.
It's just too bad he doesn't have a clue. Current rebuilding plans for South Ferry call for four tracks and three platforms. Presumably, this would invlove demolishing the existing loops, and the eventual extension of service terminating at Bowling Green to South Ferry.
No one in their right mind would call a station as busy as South Ferry 'effecient' when only 1/2 a train can use it. Extending the plaform along the existing alignment is a dangerous idea.
-Hank
Why do you think it's a dangerous idea?
It's just too bad he doesn't have a clue.
No one in their right mind would call a station as busy as South Ferry 'effecient'
Well, of course, it must be TRUE since YOU say I'm not in my right mind.
But anyway, no one can deny that South Ferry turns trains fast, and THAT is what I meant by efficient.
The loop gets more productivity out of the transit workers since they have no break at the end of their half trip. In and out. And that is a good thing in the eyes of the MTA/NYCT. The problem with any loop track is conductor visibility. But they have cameras for that mounted at the c/r board.
The new entrance is at the extreme front end of the platform -- and the C/R is at the extreme rear end.
Why not change operating procedure and have the rear five cars platform at South Ferry so the C/R can see what's going on?
Aside from reeducating the masses, reprinting signs, etc., that is. (If it was going to be done, it should have been done already.)
Why not change operating procedure and have the rear five cars platform at South Ferry so the C/R can see what's going on?
Aside from reeducating the masses, reprinting signs, etc., that is. (If it was going to be done, it should have been done already.)
They should have done that at this point, with the reopening. Everyone was out of habit for a year of not using the line anyway, so it would have been the perfect time to make the change.
But there are problems with crowds and safety and there is no way to effectively make that station ADA compliant in its current form.
Running trains around a loop offers efficiency in one important area, but ignores others.
>> Running trains around a loop offers efficiency in one important area, but ignores others. <<
Actually, we have two separate issues here. The first is the idea of turning trains on a loop. The second is having a station right on the loop. Take away the station on the loop and that problem goes away. That may not be practical at South Ferry, but maybe another solution could be found. If the part of the loop where the station is located could be straightened, that could be part of a solution. Again, that may not be practical, but it certainly is worth considering. The tightness of the loop combined with the station on the tight loop is the problem.
Agreed.
I am not anti-loop. I am pro-station improvement, however that may be accomplished.
It's certainly more efficient than Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall loop on the Lexington Line. Over there, there is a 24-hour wheel detector in effect. This slows things down in my opinion, but I understand why the TA had to implement this safety device in this location. I don't see the need to expand South Ferry station to 10-car length. I'd rather see the money spent elsewhere.
It's certainly more efficient than Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall loop on the Lexington Line. Over there, there is a 24-hour wheel detector in effect.
The problem at Brooklyn Bridge is the dwell time in the Brooklyn Bridge station, not the time spent in the loop. The problem is entirely operational and not structural.
(The problem at Brooklyn Bridge is the dwell time in the Brooklyn Bridge station, not the time spent in the loop. The problem is entirely operational and not structural. )
Perhaps this is the loop that needs replacement. One thing that might make Brookfield Properties happy is if the #6 were extended down Vesey Street right into Battery Park City. That would mean that those going to Lower Manhattan wouldn't all have to get on the 4 & 5.
One thing that might make Brookfield Properties happy is if the #6 were extended down Vesey Street right into Battery Park City. That would mean that those going to Lower Manhattan wouldn't all have to get on the 4 & 5.
Are you implying that Battery Park City inhabitants have two residences, one at Battery Park City and the other at 86th St and Lex?
(Are you implying that Battery Park City inhabitants have two residences, one at Battery Park City and the other at 86th St and
Lex? )
You're forgetting the soon to be vacated World Financial Center. It's the reason Brookfield is gonzo about getting affluent suburbanites right up to its doorstep, consequences for Brooklyn be damned.
You're forgetting the soon to be vacated World Financial Center. It's the reason Brookfield is gonzo about getting affluent suburbanites right up to its doorstep, consequences for Brooklyn be damned.
The WFC is not "soon to be vacated." Lehman Brothers turned tail and ran to Midtown, that is true, but Lehman is a disgraceful company to begin with. All the other major tenants are back.
(Lehman is a disgraceful company because about a year and a half ago they cancelled their "business casual" policy and began requiring their employees to wear Ronkonkoma anus coverings.)
(Lehman is a disgraceful company because about a year and a half ago they cancelled their "business casual" policy and began requiring their employees to wear Ronkonkoma anus coverings.)
They wear diapers to work?
Wouldn't it be easier to just give them potty breaks like every one else?
ROFLMAO!
Elias
The WFC is not "soon to be vacated." Lehman Brothers turned tail and ran to Midtown, that is true, but Lehman is a disgraceful company to begin with. All the other major tenants are back.
And Lehman is widely known in the commercial real-estate biz for having inept real estate people. They bought the brand-new, not-quite-occupied Morgan Stanley building on Seventh Avenue for absolute top dollar just a handful of weeks after 9/11, and sold their WFC interest for pathetically low money. Five years from now -- assuming NYC is not a smoking ruin, of course -- those moves will look like what they were: PANIC.
Actually, structure is a problem. Trains must slowly go around the loop or the top side of the train will hit the tunnel walls. As a precaution, the walls are painted red in order to identify any train that went around the loop to fast. If you go to fast, the train will rock back-and-forth, hit the walls, and have red paint on your train. With this in mind, in addition to the wheel detectors, T/O's will usually go around the loop at about 7mph or less. Any smart T/O knows that if the WD's say 10, you do 7 or less.
As far as dwell time at Brooklyn Bridge, it's the result of the structure of the City Hall Loop more than anything else.
With that reverse-curve leaving BB and entering the City Hall loop, I think that 7MPH is a VERY prudent speed. My two experiences on the Loop (both involving R62A equipment) showed the operators proceeding with caution until they got through City Hall station. The curve leading into that station is very tight and treacherous.
Where is the red paint? If you come in contact with the tunnel wall, won't you damage the carbody?
wayne
Most of the red paint is just north of City Hall station on the right side, along the upper side of the wall. If you go around the curve to fast, or decide to "rap it up" because the first car has cleared the loop while the rest of the train has not, you'll scratch the walls with the car body of the cars still going around the loop.
Does the red paint postdate the removal of Redbirds from the line?
No. It's been there for some time. If a redbird gets scratched up by the painted wall, it leaves a mark along the silver corners of the redbirds, so management will know if you were speeding in the loop.
Maybe we should do that for cars. Put some red paint on the walls of the Holland Tunnel...
:0)
Dwell time at BB is no more of a problem than dwell time at a bumper block terminal. You have dwell time at any terminating location since in the event the train arrived late you have a chance that it will leave on time as long as the lateness is less than the scheduled dwell time.
How is it efficent, you mean the T/O doesn't have to change ends and the C/R does not have to rezone?
But it wears the hell out of the wheels, out of the rails and it is a bitch on the ears.
Yeah but it's faster to turn trains (direction) than at a stub terminal. I think the 1/9 will become slower without the quick turn at SF.
GP38 wrote:
Yeah but it's faster to turn trains (direction) than at a stub terminal. I think the 1/9 will become slower without the quick turn at SF.
The time from Chambers to Chambers might increase, but that doesn't make for a slower line.
Mark
The issue isn't speed. (No one but railfans and lost tourists in the back of the train ride from Chambers to Chambers.) It's capacity.
you're in the paper too you know...see my post on SubTalk.
It's music to MY ears, track sprayers be damned.
wayne
Hey Wayne, did you ever make any tape recordings of squealing wheels anywhere in the subway system?
the N and W flip flop in service was done to benefit passengers since only the W i going to CI now.Why have a train in Manhattan and Queens that doesn't go to a major station like Stillwell Av.? that doesn't make any sense.And it's really no inconvience whatsoever.just get off at 36th St or Pacific St and right across the platform is the W making all local stops to Astoria.It's not like you're being asked to walk 2 miles just to make a transfer,c'mon gimme a break!You should not have ANYTHING to complain about the way service is ran now on Broadway during the weekends and late nights.The W is like the N except a different letter and diff. route to get to CI,so what's the big deal? If the W ran express all times and through the bridge what the hell is gonna replace the N on the Montauge St. Tunnel? The R can't handle the load by itself thats for sure.C'mon man,all changes are to benefit passengers so they don't have to go through hell just to get to one place.
As far as the South Ferry rehab goes.......what's wrong with that? the loop station can only handle 5 cars and sincepassengers in the back of train have to exit and enter the train again in the middle because the conductors cab is in the way,that makes it more difficult for those who want to get off at SF.To me,that loop has always sucked.
The original builders of that line really messed up big time when they did it.They should of built a regular station instead of that loop.Because of that loop,there's no way a full 10 car length station can be made otherwise it would've been done years ago.So that loop has gotta go,go,GO!Maybe a 3 track,2 island platform station like at Main St-Flushing would be a good idea.The station can be done a few feet away from the old one and the outer loop can stay so that 5 trains that end at Bowling Green can turn around and head back to the Bronx.
>>As far as the South Ferry rehab goes.......what's wrong with that? The loop station can only handle 5 cars and since passengers in the back of train have to exit and enter the train again in the middle because the conductors cab is in the way, that makes it more difficult for those who want to get off at SF. To me, that loop has always sucked.
The original builders of that line really messed up big time when they did it. They should have built a regular station instead of that loop. Because of that loop, there's no way a full 10 car length station can be made otherwise it would've been done years ago. So that loop has gotta go,go,GO!Maybe a 3 track, 2 island platform station like at Main St-Flushing would be a good idea. The station can be done a few feet away from the old one and the outer loop can stay so that 5 trains that end at Bowling Green can turn around and head back to the Bronx.<<
Just extend the loop by 2 1/2 cars at each end of the station and there wont be any problem. A train that terminates at a loop on either end of its route has the ability to save 10 minutes in travel time, And there is no need for a 3 track 2 platform station ANYWHERE in the New York City transit system. Frankly I find the idea of a loop station Ingenious. And like I said before, why rehab a station that's in perfect condition just because it has a loop, while leaving a multi platform station to crumble to the ground?
>>If the W ran express all times and through the bridge what the hell is gonna replace the N on the Montauge St. Tunnel? The R can't handle the load by itself that's for sure.C'mon man, all changes are to benefit passengers so they don't have to go through hell just to get to one place.<<
I was proposing having The N run from Astoria to 86 Street all times and have the W run from 57 Street to Coney Island.
there's one thing people try to avoid as much as possible in the subway,transfers.That is why it is preferable for the W to be the 24/7 Queens-Brooklyn line and not the N.
And if there is no reason for a 3 track 2 island platform anywhere in the subway,how come there's one at Main St.?
Not to mention Whitehall Street, which is just across the street from SF.
Not to mention any one of several dozen stations throughout the system on lines that have three tracks, i.e. Concourse, Flushing, Pelham, etc.
wayne
And there is no need for a 3 track 2 platform station ANYWHERE in the New York City transit system.
Not true. How about express stations on 3 track lines? Also partial terminals, such as Whitehall Street. However, I agree with you that it's not an ideal arrangement for a full terminal - Flushing Main Street isn't the most effective terminal in the system (in fact, doesn't Times Square on the 7 have greater capacity with only two tracks?).
Frankly I find the idea of a loop station Ingenious.
Loops rule!
Frankly I find the idea of a loop station Ingenious.
Loops rule!
That's what I think. (Even though someone thought I must have lost my mind to think that, since I'm "clueless"). When the space exists, a loop is a great terminal. South Ferry is not perfect, because of the half train thing, but it is far from NOT doing it's job.
The South Ferry terminal does a good job.
But a four track stub terminal, with ten-car length platforms, walking connections to other platforms, and full ADA compliance (this is what MTA wantrs to build starting in 2004) works much better. So I won't complain when they remove the loop.
The talk at the TA is about a 4 track terminal at South Ferry, with connections to the 5 train at Bowling Green. The platforms will hold 10-car trains. That is what will replace the loop; work to begin in 2004 and ready by 2006.
That is worth doing.
>>The talk at the TA is about a 4 track terminal at South Ferry, with connections to the 5 train at Bowling Green. The platforms will hold 10-car trains. That is what will replace the loop; work to begin in 2004 and ready by 2006.
That is worth doing.<<
Ron answer y question, what is the physical condition of South Ferry as of September 15 2002?
The current basic condition of the station is as it was prior to the WTC attack. That means a five-car curved platform which is not ADA compliant.
It's fantastic that MTA restored service quickly. It's fantastic that they will redesign and rebuild the station to modern standards.
WASTE OF MONEY! If the #1 can't handle it, I SURE CAN!
N Broadway Line
I don't agree. I think it's money very well spent, especially since capacity enhancements will be needed in connection with redevelopment efforts in Lower Manhattan.
"If the #1 can't handle it, I SURE CAN! "
Meaning what, exactly?
The traffic flow at Whitehall Street.
N Bwy
hey guys just was on the 1 train. 2366 NOW HAS THE SOUTH FERRY SIGNS BACK UP. its beautiful to see our subways getting back to normal. i havent seen that sign in years. the sign that says u must be in the first 5 cars to leave at south ferry. then i notice, more of the 1 trains had the red stripe so basically livonia and cortlandt are switching again. Anyways i had 2366. good ride to New Lots. OF COURSE I EXPLAINED TO UNSUSPECTING PASSENGERS that today was the last weekday of the 1 in brooklyn. and they had no clue
Next week there will be people who after a year got used to #1 trains going to Brooklyn. And now it's going back to South Ferry.
::manical laughter::
Bye-Bye 2-5 minutes headways on the New Lots line. Back to the 8-12 minute headways. Thats whats theyre going to miss the most.............
5 trains also come to/from New Lots when the 3 was running there before 9/11
My solution would be to run the (9) to/from New Lots during rush hours it would increase the headways. Also run all diamond 5 trains to/from there to/from 238 peak direction.
During the diversion that ends tonight, New Lots has seen more service than it ever has, and more service than it needs. What this service pattern proved is that more service can be operated than normally runs. One problem is, the Nostrand Avenue branch needs the additional service more than New Lots does, and there's limited track capacity because of the poor design of the terminal. Another is, the passengers have expressed a preference for Lexington Avenue service over Seventh Avenue service, and the poor layout of Rogers Junction is a limiting factor on the total amount of service that can be operated as well as on which routings the various trains take.
Oh, and running more service DECREASES headways. Headways are usually expressed in minutes. For example, 15 trains in an hour would be a 4-minute headway; 20 trains in an hour would be a 3-minute headway.
David
The diamond 5 is Lexington Avenue and some of those trains run there already, my idea would be to run almost all of them to from New Lots (the others can come from Flatbush/Utica/or Bowling Green)
The problem is, that's not where the people are! Why run train after train after train on the New Lots branch when they'll run nearly empty until Utica Avenue?
David
The White Plains Road 5 has 8-11 minute headways in the AM, 10-15 in the PM, that is not much of a service increase. People who want a seat will go from Utica to New Lots Avenue. Do 4 and 5 trains get packed at Utica Avenue alone?
To come out of the yard, or to go to the yard, trains have to pass the station either way.
Does it really make a difference to take yard trains out of service at Utica Avenue, or just leave them in service until New Lots, since the trains will go there anyway?
5 trains most likely will be going back to New Lots in service on Monday just like before 9/11/01.
I think the last 5 Brooklyn train went to NLTS as well.
These trains will mainly be going in peak direction (to/from the Bronx of course).
The #5 Daily timetable effective September 16 features 12 trains leaving 149th Street going southbound from 8 to 9 AM, a 5-minute headway, not the cited 8-11-minute headway. Northbound leaving 125th Street from 5 to 6 PM, I see 13 #5 trains, a better than 5-minute headway.
As for whether #4 and the occasional #5 trains get packed at Utica Avenue, go there one morning and watch the people pour off the B46 and B17 buses (and to a lesser degree the B14 and B45) into the station. Then go downstairs and watch the #3 and occasional #2 trains (now that people can do this again!) as they enter the station going northbound and see the wide-open spaces in the cars. Here's some ridership information to chew on: for the year 2001, the New Lots Avenue Line (New Lots Avenue to Nostrand Avenue) had 20,493,076 riders entering at its stations. Of these, 8,105,914 entered at Utica Avenue. The total for New Lots Avenue to Sutter Avenue was 9,470,197. What this means is that nearly half of the riding in the New Lots-to-Utica segment enters the system AT Utica Avenue.
It is true that put-ins coming out of Livonia Yard have to pass the stations between New Lots Avenue and Sutter Avenue to reach Utica Avenue to enter service. However, it is also true that not all of the trainsets start in Brooklyn -- some of the service is coming from the Bronx.
Here's what will be happening on the #5 weekdays in the AM rush starting Monday, September 16:
Put-ins at New Lots Avenue: 5:50 AM, 7:50 AM
Put-ins at Utica Avenue: none
Trains leaving Utica Avenue that came into Utica Avenue as southbound #5s: 8:31-1/2, 8:51-1/2, 8:59
Put-ins at Flatbush Avenue: 6:06-1/2, 6:18-1/2
Everything else leaving Flatbush Avenue comes in there in service southbound.
As for the evening:
Trains arriving at Utica Avenue and laying up: 8:01-1/2 PM, 8:41 PM, 8:52 PM
Trains arriving at Utica Avenue and returning to the Bronx in service: 8:11-1/2 PM, 8:21-1/2 PM
Trains arriving at New Lots Avenue and laying up: 8:42
Any #5 train leaving Brooklyn Bridge after 8:32-1/2 PM will turn at Bowling Green.
David
Note I was talking about the diamond 5 trains, not the circles and diamonds combined. Those trains alone have 8-15 minute headways.
8:59 Utica, is that train heading for E 238 or not?
Are the Bronx #3's still running (since there are 10 car sets) or not?
I fail to understand the significance of a #5 train heading for Brooklyn being designated with a diamond vs. a circle as far as the poster's argument (that #5 trains should run out of New Lots Avenue) goes. The crews almost always get this wrong, but diamond means the train came from (or in the PM rush goes to) White Plains Road and circle means the train came from/goes to Dyre Avenue or E. 180th Street.
The 8:59 AM #5 out of Utica is headed for E. 180th Street, from which point it lays up.
The new #3 schedule has put-ins at E. 180th Street at 5:45, 6:07-1/2, 6:26-1/2, and 6:40-1/2 AM. Strangely enough, the timetable does not list trains dropping out at E. 180th Street in the evening, but four of them must in order to have the four put-ins available the next morning (unless there's a LOT of deadheading going on). Probably the column's missing from the timetable -- if I have a chance I'll find out and post here.
David
David:
I believe the last four #3 trains will terminate @ 96St-Bway, from which the trains deadhead to E.180St. Ill check today/tomorrow.
Aaah!
"SubBus" is correct (that's what I get for looking at timetables before my eyes have opened for the day). The last four #3 trains of the day (weekdays) terminate at 96th Street at 11:36-1/2 and 11:48-1/2 PM, and 12:00-1/2 and 12:12-1/2 AM, and layup. While the timetable doesn't indicate where layups go, it is logical to assume that the trains go to E. 180th Street Yard for the night (or weekend, if it's a Friday).
David
Ok. I checked the info out yesterday. The last four weekday trains on the 3 terminates at 96St-Bway. The jobs however, ends at E.180St. So its a pretty safe bet (97%) that these trains deadhead to E.180st. Once again, Ill find out on Friday for sure.
Anybody know why those trains don't stay in service to E180 or at least to 135 (where they diverge from the normal 3 route)?
Because they can run the 2 on the local track while the crew on the 3 cleans out the train at 96th. Then the train can be taken straight into the yard and layed-up without a real distruption in service.
That could also be done at E180. Run the train express and empty it out on the middle track. If 5 trains are still running express, they can switch to the local track (they have to switch to it anyway).
During that time of the night, there is no 5 express service. In fact there is no 5 service to Manhattan. The Dyre Shuttle will already be up and running.
Oh! I didn't realize how late this was. Then the middle track at E180 isn't an option after all. I guess 96th is best. Is the 2 even scheduled to run express at that time?
Yes, I believe the 2s are scheduled to run express at this time......
That's a good question. Why don't they stay in service to E.180? It's much easier to clean out up there. And if you're worried about tying up the road, just send the 3 train express from 149 to 180 to distance himself from his follower, allowing the 3 enough time to clean out.
In the few times I've worked the 3, we sometimes carried passengers to E.180. and sometimes cleaned out at 135. But that was last pick.
Where are you this pick east or Bway? I have been getting RX T/O's all week. Email me if your working the No.6 Weekday or No.5 on Sat.
I was suggesting that if NLTS needs more service, (most)diamond 5 service should go to/come from there peak direction. Most 5 trains (usually circles) will still come from Flatbush Avenue.
Interesting on Friday I saw a (5) that had Dyre on the side STOPPING at Allerton Avenue at 2:55 pm. Of course the side seemed to have a diamond 5 on it. Was that a missigned #2 train (I didn't see the whole train), or did something else happen?
So I will assume that the extra 2 #3 trains that went to/came from E 238 will lay up in NLTS yard instead of 239 Street yard.
"If" is the operative word here. I'm saying that New Lots Avenue doesn't need more service, so there's no point in arguing what that service should be.
On the current (9/16/02) timetable, the first Bronx express #5 is the 3:38-1/2 PM out of Bowling Green. I checked the 5/13/02 timetable, and it's the same.
Again: the diamond is SUPPOSED to mean "thru express," which means White Plains Road (as opposed to Dyre, which is what the circle means). #5 trains are often signed up incorrectly as far as that goes.
I fail to see on what basis that assumption about #3 service can be made. As stated on this board on 9/15/02, the last four northbound #3 trains of the day on weekdays terminate at 96th Street, and it is safe to assume that they lay up in E. 180th Street Yard, since four #3 trains enter service at E. 180th Street in the morning on weekdays.
David
I thought a thru express, in old IRT terminology, was an express in Manhattan and the Bronx. (At least that's what I was told, I think here, by someone who seemed to know what he was talking about.) By that definition, all peak-direction rush hour 5 trains are thru expresses. What would make a train to Nereid any more of an express than a train to Dyre when both have the same express runs in Manhattan and the Bronx?
I do agree that the circle should refer to Dyre trains, even during rush hours. That's one improvement the R-142's have brought: correct circle/diamond signage.
Some Dyre 5 trains are diamonds due to Brooklyn stuff, even on r-142s, so the signage is not always correct.
There was an off peak diamond 5 that ran Bronx Local, so that throws the 'thru express' argument out (more on this in my other response to David). It was the r-142s that stopped that local Nereid 5 from going to E 238 During middays.
As far as NLTS goes, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to run yard bound trains there (not other #5 trains, since Flatbush needs the #5). "If" the TA decided to increase service is the thing here. What are the #3s headways? are they 8-12 minutes, or less?
And with the Brooklyn crowds, the #5 should terminate in Atlantic Avenue (like it used to in the 70s) or Flatbush Avenue Middays, Rush Hours, and evenings until 9:30 pm. Is there really a problem with running the #5 to Flatbush more, the new map even uses circles for Brooklyn service.
I was referring to the other 2 #3 trains that used to go to the Bronx any lay up in 239 Street yard (during rush hours). Not the 4 #3 trains that lay up at E 180 Street. Remember there were 6 extra #3 trains (I think the other two had 10 cars as well, or did they?), I was asking about the other two.
But since you brought up the E 180 Street thing, it does seem inconsistent to run them from E 180 in the morning, yet terminate them at 96 Street, then deadhead them at night to E 180 Street. I wonder why they just don't run those to E 180 Street in service as well, it only seems fair to have the same service going in both directions (even if it is one direction at a time).
Oh, and diamond 5 trains have appeared on redbird 5 trains going to Dyre and trains going to Brooklyn on r-142s
The 8:59 Utica that once came from #2 service was not a thru express, but still went to WPR and was still a diamond (meaning that diamond is not always thru express)
Also Dyre #5s are also thru express trains (during rush hours) and have circles.
A recent MTA meeting said that the diamond also means irregular routings and not just express anymore (Circle vs Diamond convention). There really isn't a diamond D used on the trains is there?
Was there ever a time when Dyre #5 trains were local and WPR #5 trains were express (in the 1950s or after the 2/5 switch)?
BTW the first express #5 train(that reaches the Bronx) on the May 2002 schedule (which hasn't changed from December apparently) runs from Bowling Green at 3:52 pm. It shows no train out of Bowling Green out at 3:38.
Only four evening #5 trains layup in Brooklyn. They all terminate at Utica Avenue. The headway on the #3 at that time is 10 minutes. It's well after the PM rush.
The last #5 to Flatbush is scheduled to arrive there at 8:00-1/2 PM. A few #5 trains beyond those (which I've already named) go to Utica or New Lots. Is service into Brooklyn needed later than that?
The new #3 schedule has four trains going to 96th Street and laying up. There are no #3 trains scheduled to run along White Plains Road. Whatever happened before is history.
Again: use of the diamond on #5 trains has been inconsistent as long as there has been a diamond reading. It's SUPPOSED to represent White Plains Road service. It's been corrupted by the crews to represent ANY train running express in the Bronx.
I don't think there was a point where all White Plains Road #5s were express while all Dyre Avenue #5s were local. When Dyre through service was started (as opposed to a shuttle to E. 180th Street), the #2 was the through service to Dyre Avenue. That lasted from 1957-65.
As for the first Bronx express out of Bowling Green, I'm looking at the September timetable, not the May timetable.
David
-----
On the current (9/16/02) timetable, the first Bronx express #5 is the 3:38-1/2 PM out of Bowling Green. I checked the 5/13/02 timetable, and it's the same.
-----
Not the same at all unless your May schedule is different from the one posted.
So the WPR trains still run at the same schedule as December/May (not counting the 8:59 Utica)?
In terms of the 6 and 7 trains, yes diamond should mean express.
In the #5s case it should obviously mean WPR, even though some of the stations have circle instead of diamond 5s themselves. On some maps I see diamond 5s going to Dyre with Circle 5 trains as well as WPR with Circle 2 trains.
Someone even told me they saw a diamond 5 going to Dyre on a weekend.
Someone even claimed to see a diamond 2 (on another board)
Of course there are rare cases where you see circle #5 trains heading for WPR
Did anyone get confused when both Dyre and WPR #5 trains were both Circle 5 (70s, 80s, early 90s)?
Would there have been a way to run an r-142 #5 train to 238 Street during middays if the interlines were kept? Or do all WPR #5 r-142s say Bronx Express on them?
About #5 to Brooklyn, I was mainly referring to Middays
I heard that #2 trains can get packed during middays, so I wonder if it would be good to extend Brooklyn service for the #5.
According the the schedule you posted, northbound #5 evening service from Brooklyn was decreased by about 20 minutes since the last #5 train left Utica around 8:39 pm
I wonder why the TA never considered running the #5 express in the Bronx all day like the #6 (and #7 in Queens).
The #5 has the #2 as the local, where as the #6 and #7 just have circles as the local.
Whoops! Once again David types without engaging brain...I really should learn to wake up before posting stuff early in the morning...
On the May timetable, the first Bronx express #5 was indeed the 15:52 out of Bowling Green. It ARRIVED at Bowling Green (light) at 15:38-1/2. That has been continued on the September timetable.
I stand corrected.
David
------
The 8:59 AM #5 out of Utica is headed for E. 180th Street, from which point it lays up.
------
Are you sure you are correct about this, I just looked at the September 2002 Schedule and it shows that a #5 which arrives at Franklin Avenue at 9:02 (which has to be the 8:59 Utica) arrives at E. 238th Street at 10:12 (instead of 10:13)
Is the #5 timetable you have the same timetable as the ones that the TA distributes to the public, or is yours slightly different?
I am looking at the official timetable, produced by the subway schedulemakers. It says the 8:59 #5 out of Franklin Avenue gets to E. 180th Street at 9:59 AM and lays up.
What September 2002 "schedule" says that train goes to 238th Street...a public timetable? If it says that, it's wrong.
David
http://mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/t5cur.pdf
Yup...that's what it says, all right, but unless the official timetable has been superseded (which could happen -- the daily #3 timetable was replaced by a supplement with different layup locations just the other day (and no, I haven't seen the supplement so I don't know what the differences are)), the customer timetable is wrong.
David
Do you know why that #5 went to E 238 in the morning anyway, since the TA usually only runs these trains during rush hours, or were they just being "nice" to WPR riders by keeping that train in service past E 180 Street?
Did the 2/5 interline always use redbirds, or did it use r-62s or even r-142a's?
I don't have the answers to those questions. Perhaps someone else here does.
David
http://mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/t5cur.pdf
Do they send it up to 238 OOS? if they did, they would be better off leaving it in service
http://mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/t5cur.pdf
Do they send it up to 238 OOS? if they did, they would be better off leaving it in service
because I see some trains going OOS from E 180(and Dyre as well) around that time in the AM
David, I should have read your post before posting. It is the same excact thing. I also forgot to add that people also backtrack from Nostrand and Kingston Ave as well to get on the 4.
Where'd you get that schedule from?
Let's just say they're official and leave it at that.
David
I'm not questioning your information, I've just been searching for a copy of September 2002 schedules but I guess they either aren't out or are the same as before.
As for whether #4 and the occasional #5 trains get packed at Utica Avenue, go there one morning and watch the people pour off the B46 and B17 buses (and to a lesser degree the B14 and B45) into the station. Then go downstairs and watch the #3 and occasional #2 trains (now that people can do this again!) as they enter the station going northbound and see the wide-open spaces in the cars.
The 4 and 5 run express in Brooklyn; the 2 and 3 run local. Even people going to the West Side will take the 4/5 and transfer at Nevins to the 2/3 (or at Atlantic to the BMT).
I am well aware as to how they run.
The poster I was responding to was asserting (as per the title of this thread) that more service is needed to/from New Lots Avenue. My responses have been meant to convey that northbound trains coming into Utica Avenue in the AM rush in service (just about all of which are #3 trains under normal circumstances) come in with plenty of room, meaning that additional service out of New Lots is not necessary. Notice the italicized part of the post I'm responding to now -- it says ENTER the station (meaning Utica), not EXIT.
David
Sorry, I think I misunderstood your post.
The only reason to run more service to New Lots is to run more service in Manhattan, in particular on the 2 and 3. New Lots is the only place additional service could turn. Due to Rogers-induced bottlenecks, more 5 trains would have to go to New Lots, and Flatbush - East Side passengerswould need to learn to transfer at Franklin (which I have a feeling most of them do anyway if a 2 is the first train out). (And before anyone tells me it's not fair to deny direct East Side service to passengers at Flatbush, why is it any fairer to deny direct East Side service to passengers at Brooklyn local stations, or for that matter to passengers along the 1/2/3 in Manhattan?)
I happen to agree with David G. on that one. If running only Seventh Avenue service out of Flatbush is the only way to increase train service on the Nostrand Avenue branch, then that is what should be done. Since the Lexington Avenue service out of Flatbush Avenue is heavily used, though, I would explore other options (reconstructing Nostrand Junction, etc.) to see what can be done at a reasonable cost before doing that.
David
I certainly agree that reconstructing the interlocking would be the best option, but we've been waiting for that almost as long as we've been waiting for the 2nd Avenue subway, so I don't have my hopes up.
There is an intermediate option, of increasing 2 service not to a full 15 tph but to somewhat more than exists now. That would bump some but not all 5's out of Flatbush.
OTOH, even if the West Side express doesn't need 30 tph, I would suggest considering running 30 tph on the 2/3 and diverting the excess to the local in Manhattan, at least north of 34th. You know how I feel about the inadequacy of 1/9 service, and if it can't be improved itself (either due to constraints at the terminals or for whatever other reasons), then something else can provide the needed service. The 2 local will be missed at the local stations.
On that note, I haven't seen how the return to the old 1/2/3/9 arrangement has worked with rush hour traffic, but one afternoon this week I hope to count uptown locals at Times Square from 5 to 6. I'll report on my findings. (If you have the schedule handy, how many NB 1/9's are scheduled to depart Times Square during that hour? Of course, the schedule doesn't list which ones run express on any given day, which is the primary point of my survey.)
Buddy:
Utica was my home station until a few years ago.(See Subtalkers Home Station). During the Am rush hour, the #4 is PACKED at Utica Ave. When I was going to high school, I would let a train pass before I get on. First you got the 3 dropping its load, then you got the B14,17,45, and 46 buses (especially the B17 and B46) dropping its load. Oh I forgot, the $1.25 vans as well. Only if there was an Utica Ave line.............. There is a reverse situation in the PM rush hours. The 4 is packed to Utica Ave.
Buddy:
Utica was my home station until a few years ago.(See Subtalkers Home Station). During the Am rush hour, the #4 is PACKED at Utica Ave. When I was going to high school, I would let a train pass before I get on. First you got the 3 dropping its load, then you got the B14,17,45, and 46 buses (especially the B17 and B46) dropping its load. Oh I forgot, the $1.25 vans as well. Only if there was an Utica Ave line.............. There is a reverse situation in the PM rush hours. The 4 is packed to Utica Ave.
Stop exaggerating in saying that you haven't seen the South Ferry sign in years. Come on! It has been one year and a few days.
This week's NARP hotline indicates that Amtrak has suspended the parcel check service at Penn Station (not to be confused with checked baggage service for Amtrak passengers), as part of the federal government's move to "code orange" this past week.
So is there any place for a daytripper to stash a bag in Manhattan these days?
So bizarre .. New York City has been on code orange since 9/11/01.
So bizarre .. New York City has been on code orange since 9/11/01.
This week's NARP hotline indicates that Amtrak has suspended the parcel check service at Penn Station (not to be confused with checked baggage service for Amtrak passengers), as part of the federal government's move to "code orange" this past week.
Time to wash the bedsheets ...
If you're presentable enough, simply go to the luggage check at a first class hotel, and pretend you are a guest. A discreet tip to the attendant doesn't hurt.
Across the street at the Hotel Pennsylvania. There's a fee of about $5.
...as a RIPTA bus terminal and DOT Archaeological Research Collections Center. The station was built in 1882.
Station Redux, Providence Journal, 9/6/02 (requires free registration)
I had a fun ride from NYP to Newark about two weeks ago on the 8:14p express to Trenton. (I think it's a lousy express it only skips TWO stops and it STOPS at Jersey Av.!)
Despite the blase attitude, I ran into something that really interested me.
As everyone knows it is dark by this time and we left on time, not leaving anyone behind on the platform even though there was another train a half-hour later.
We seemed to reach 12mph into the tunnels (I think this was fast but if it's faster [normal conditions] please forgive me of the mistake) We sped up for the tunnel, throughout the Turnpike, and we made record speed on PORTAL at close to 50mph. Speeding past through the MidTown Direct rails and the restricted zone into Harrison, a few mph over on the Passaic R. Bridge, and we arrived Newark a surprising 4 minutes early on schedule. (8:25, scheduled was 8:29)
The announcers at Newark reported to us "Watch your time" for the incredible earliness. Wow. I didn't have a train ride like that in almost a long time. I think AMTRAK trains have this on the regular schedule, and I was wondering if AMTRAK does this, why can't NJT? It is merely the same trackage and the same stops. Either change the schedule and put an earlier time so last-second passengers don't miss it.
I didn't mind it. Anyone else have stories?
I was the first kid on my block to have one of those new-fangled tellyvision things (12" Emerson, and no shows before 10 am or so) but I'm about to get my first cell phone and need all the advice I can get.
I don't expect very heavy usage and almost all my calling will be NYC, Long Island and occasionally nearby NJ.
Can I ask what kind of cell phone and plan SubTalkers Have? Are you happy with your plan? Price? The phone?
Did you switch carriers or phones any time recently? Are you happier now? Anybody to avoid like the plague?
I'm thinking Nextel or Verizon? I am maybe about to make a mistake?
Avoid Verizon like the plague. Haven't heard anything negative about Nextel. I personally use Sprint and I like it. I can't give you much advice on specific plans, since I use mine for mostly long distance calls (I'm in college and calling home is long distance), but you can see what they're offering on their website (sprintpcs.com) and see if any of the plans appeal to you.
Verison is fine if you are in the Northeast, and call primarily Northeastern destinations. I don't have a cell, but if I did it would be Sprint, cuz I'm in the Midwest a whole lot. Voicestream is all-digital (limited coverage outside urban areas). Most other providers have dual-mode phones that will work in the boonies. But since you are in NYC, you probably don't care about coverage in the boonies, so an all-digital will work as well as a dual-mode or tri-band.
AEM7
I've got Nextel. Happy as could be, I even get service in certain spots in Times Square and other stations. I've never had any lost calls or all circuits busy messages. Price for the plan is 39.99 for 300 minutes and 3600 Nights And Weekends. Good thing with Nextel is there is no roaming and free long distance. If you know other people with Nextel you can use their private ID to direct connect them creating an instant two-way radio communication protocol.
I've been a Nextel user for about four years now, courtesy of work. If I were to get one for strictly personal use, I would go with Nextel as well. The $39.99 plan give you 300 peak minutes per month with free incoming calls as well as the two-way radio feature. Additionally, in the critical times of last year, I can personally vouch how the two-way radio network did not go down; an important factor when trying to ensure those close to you are ok.
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
DC# 172*46*49335
Mark,
I guess you have "Nextel National Free Incoming 300"?
They don't say anything about weekend minutes. Do you get any? TIA for the advice.
Paul
Paul...go into the nextel/southern pacific rail/attco/verizon/cingular/etc retail and get paperwork. Check out Cnet.com CI Peter
YES! Somebody else who knows what SPRINT stands for!
Hey...I had a special job interview just before I graduated from RCA Institutes...the recruiter was used to sort out unwanted minorities for a yet to be created telcom provider...the new company manager was probably upset that I saved every cent beyond tuition to buy a new Japan made ham radio...1974...and lost the job. It was SPR I think...SPR originated because they found out their track right-of-way control lines could simultaneously carry telephone voice over DC control. MCI originated through microwave trunking that avoided ATTco trunk cables. My mom wrote up the tarrifs....along with creating the wireline links for Disneyland and the 1963 Worlds Fair ATTco 'picturephone.'
SPRINT...,Southern Pacific Railway International Telecommunications.
Unca Steve once chastised me about the EP trainsets portion shutters marked R127...the number is for railfans advantage and we know them as the EPs. Fourty years with flying spot scanners, slow scan TV/radio fax/teletype and SPRINT comes out with a new PCS for 'videoview,' Coplor canera is an option.
My DC: 173*16580*1
First hand experience......generally, Verizon has excellent electronic comm service...other carriers like NexTel drop out frequently. DO NOT do business over the internet...you will be a second class customer! I have few friends or family...my phone is carried for emergency service for NYCTA because I can call the car desk faster then I can run two city blocks to kill all HVDC power. Verizon and other providers will yess you to Hell under contract. Find the best deal and get it through a retail office and not a reseller of service. They are mostly the same...telephone reps are out of state and couldn't give a Redbirds chassis or rats ass about you. CI peter
Completely agree with you on Verizon. Just about anything is good in Manhattan, but Verizon is good in the other boroughs as well. I know Verizon had POTS quality here in Bensonhurst Brooklyn. I don't know about LI and NJ, but I'd guess that it'd be close to the quality here.
I have Verizon here in Suffolk, and it works great - never have problem getting a signal (like some of the other companies I had). I have 4000 free weekend minutes (which I can use almost any where in the US) It's cheaper to use the cell phone than the land line. I can call anywhere in the country at anytime during the week for just the base monthly price (as long as I don't go over my monthly allowance (which can be set to each individual's usage).
One year on the contract and I just received my leather case/CGA adapter. Wasn't factory...was Verizon combo pack...the phone barely fits into the case, it does not close properly and does not protect the phone. Arghhhhh! My phone is carried backwards in a NightEyes
heavy nylon parapack pouch to protect it from being smashed upon anti-climbers and couplers...I will continue to persevere and fight for ultimate justice. NEVER accept an online bargain...do business with the vendor at their store. A shoe paddle edge can do wonders for those who need brain alignment. CI Peter
AT&T Wireless. I've had their service for over four years (Digital One Rate, paid for by the office), works very reliably, everywhere from Los Angeles to Québec City, Bangor (Maine) to North Carolina. And now I've recently purchased their service for my wife as well, since her health has finally stabilized enough for her to travel regularly again. You probably would do better with their Regional Advantage plan, given your projected calling patterns, but the service quality will be the same. And I've never had any problems with their customer service either, the times I've had occasion to call. My younger daughter has Cingular (her boyfriend worked for them this summer and gave her a year's service for her birthday) and her coverage is very spotty; my older daughter has AT&T Digital One Rate in Arizona with excellent coverage, while her husband carries FOUR different cell phones with him (all from different carriers with different local or regional plans, none AT&T) while he's driving his truck around California and the southwest just to make sure he has one that will work.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Me, my wife and my stepdaughter all have Verizon, and so far it's been fine.
Fine until you have a serious problem and have to call by phone. These suckers will eat your wireless minutes when you call 'on the road.' Have a problem? Call service from home by landline. Verizon Wireless reps are located in South Carolina and chances are they are incarcerated...crooks...prisoners behind bars in a special rehabilitation program. Only deal with Verizon NY face to face.
Verizon Wireless reps are located in South Carolina and chances are they are incarcerated...crooks...prisoners behind bars in a special rehabilitation program.
They probably are more polite and efficient than most customer service workers on the "outside."
I don't expect very heavy usage and almost all my calling will be NYC, Long Island and occasionally nearby NJ.
Can I ask what kind of cell phone and plan SubTalkers Have? Are you happy with your plan? Price? The phone?
Paul,
Believe it or not, nobody can make this decision for you - you'll probably be unhappy if you base your choice on others' experiences. That's because all wireless phone companies suck, your task is to find the one that sucks the least for you.
Because the level of service can vary significantly with as little as a single step in any direction, the only way to be sure is to try each service where you plan on using it. You'll need to actually make calls and listen for the quality, and ideally have a friend along so you can listen from a landline to be able to tell what kind of torture a particular service inflicts on others' ears. Don't trust the "signal strength" meters on the handsets themselves.
Conventional wisdom says that most of the key players cover Manhattan like a blanket, with service becoming spottier as you move farther from the city. I've used several services, and have at times carried multiple handsets. Right now, Verizon is my preferred carrier in the metropolitan area.
Don't let your decision rest entirely on which carrier has the "best customer service," since you'll probably only need that once or twice over the course of a year, and it's better to pick a phone that works well for you than a friendlier brick wall to talk to when it doesn't work.
Mark
If you are going to use it light, Nextel is probably not for you. They are geared for the 24/7 phone users, and you'll feature you probably won't use, like the two way radio. And you can only use the radio with tother people with the radio also. My friend has Verizon and he says it is decent. Look into Cingular or T-Mobile, if you guys have those services. Cingular has "rollover minutes" meaning if you don't use your minutes in one month, they'll rollover to the next month, whiich is very nice if you will be a light user.
I'd suggest you check out Sprint in December where they have special promotions. I haven't had any problems with it except New Years where apparently I wasn't valued enough to recieve service and some other people calling were. VoiceStream is crap. Total crap. We got the plan, and you get weak signals. I had to deal with that for about 11 months till the network got itself together for the last month of my contract and the signal was unbelieveably strong. But they're phone emit alot of raditation. Distorted my computer monitor when it was under it. My sister's AT&T phone is cheap. When the battery is hot, it shuts off and it gets hot really fast. And the battery comes off easily. They might have new phone but non I doubt are free. Also check with some chinese vendors (the ones in stores!) in Chinatown or 8th Avenue. They usually have a few of their plans with free phones more than the company itself does.
Actually, I disagree very very strongly with the person who claims Voicestream is terrible. In many respects, Voicestream is superior to anybody else. Voicestream uses the far superior GSM technology that European cell phone service uses. That means the service is tied in with a small computer chip card called a SIM card. If you want a new phone, just change the SIM card. You can use Voicestream in Europe if you get a GSM phone which works on their frequencies on a not too bad rate of 99 cents/minute whether calling or receiving. You can do much better but this isn't the place to discuss that.
There are areas where the Voicestream signal is weak; but then again there are areas where AT&T or Verizon are weak and Voicestream is strong..
Their national roaming plan is terrific with unlimited weekend calls. You can go to LA and you have cell phone service and don't pay roaming charges.
How can Voicestream phones give off more radiation than others when the phones are somewhat similar. AT&T with its outmoded service uses the Nokia 3360, Voicestream uses the 3390. Essentially the same phone although Voicestream's operates with a SIM card while AT7T's does not.
People should have the right facts before they write.
I had the little T28 World. A very small phone from Ericsson. We had the SIM card tech in it. It had poor service out here toward south Brooklyn. It was quite awful anywhere but in the city. During the last month of my contract it shaped up. We had a 3 phone family plan so that kinda sucked to have a phone that wasn't working most of the time. But it worked great during the last month. It was also one of the few that worked on 9/11.
AT&T's service is hardly outmoded. The Nokia 3360 is a "giveaway" phone with AT&T's service and many other wireless carriers as well; personally, I carry an old 6160 and my wife has the 6360 - both excellent phones. The 6360 will pull signal in places where my 6160 won't but it works well enough that I'm not about to ask my employer to replace it with a 6360 or 8265, at least until I can find the time to open it up and clean the antenna contacts (which I think may be the only reason it's not doing as well).
And, by the way, Voicestream recently collapsed financially and was swallowed by T-Mobile. Neither Voicestream nor T-Mobile have an all-GSM network; rather, most of their network is conventional digital (and some small parts are still analog!) with GSM in selected locations. Kind of like AT&T - it's just that NYC is not one of AT&T's GSM locations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, there has been some talk of Voicestream merging with AT&T.
Just to clarify...I no way meant to denigrate AT&T. The point is each of the carriers has places where their signals are stronger than others. I have been in places where AT&T's signal is very weak and Voicestream's is extremely strong and vice versa.
As it stands now, Voicestream's rate are a little cheaper than those of AT&T especially when it comes to national roaming. To the best of my knowledge, and I admit I may not be right, Voicestream is a GSM service provider and as a matter of fact their literature says that the national roaming works in all areas with GSM service. Until recently, they had no presence in either California and Nevada so that when I was there, my phone said Cingular (which at that time was not in NY).....same service same pricing all part of the monthly rate.
So while not denigrating AT&T, it does not use SIM cards the way Voicestream and Cingular do. Thus, you cannot use your AT&T account in Europe....you absolutely can use Voicestream in Europe provided you call Voicestream before leaving and request international roaming. I don't use it as it is far cheaper to buy a European GSM phone in Europe with a prepaid plan but that doesn't affect the majority of Americans.
My point is you have to look at each of the providers and figure out what is best for you. I do know that when I visit my sister in New City, when I try to use my Voicestream phone, I do have problems with very wek signals if at all.....
... national roaming works in all areas with GSM service.
True. So does anyone else's GSM roaming. My point is that there aren't very many places in the US that have GSM signals, although I expect that will change over the next several years. Still, the wireless build-out that is occurring in the US right now is over 95% digital, and that percentage will remain over 90% for the next several years. The added cost of providing GSM service can't be justified in areas with population densities as low as they are in the US, except in major urban centers - that's why Voicestream went belly up and was absorbed by T-mobile. And, as I noted before, a large percentage of Voicestream's system was digital, not GSM, although they did have a larger percentage of GSM than the major carriers. But having a big percentage in a very small home network isn't necessarily as good as having a small percentage in a huge network.
Thus, you cannot use your AT&T account in Europe...
Not true. If you have an AT&T GSM account it is automatically enabled for international roaming at no additional charge (you pay the same roaming charge as applies in the US when you're off-network). Check AT&T Wireless for more information.
My point is you have to look at each of the providers and figure out what is best for you.
Absolutely.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AT&T Wireless has served me very well. Very cheap, wide primary service area, few dropped calls. Verizon has good quality service but their primary service area is choppy so you get hit with a lot of roaming charges. It's hard to predict where those charges will apply.
I guess it's all in who you talk to. I've been with Verizon for 3.5 years now and I'm very pleased with the service. I've had the occasional dropped call in rural areas, but overall it's been great. Excellent in NYC area tunnels, Baltimore tunnels and throughtout WMATA system.
Good luck
Wayne
There was a redbird at Allerton Avenue at around 2:55 pm, going northbound. I could only see some of the signs, but it said 5 Lex Avenue Thru express, the sign above it said Dyre Avenue. The Front was a circle (most likely a 5 that said Dyre) and the back had Flatbush (couldn't see the number).
Does anyone know if the 2 had gotten redbirds today (because of r-142 problems), or did the off peak diamond 5 to E 238 get rescheduled?
Uhh..5 trains still have redbirds...
I wanted to know if that was the off peak midday diamond 5 train to E 238 Street, or was it a missigned 2 train since it was 2:55 and not 5:52
Or it could have been a 5 running lite to 239th St Yard.....
-Stef
Running Lite?
Yes. I mean it is possible.
-Stef
No, what does Running Lite mean, I never heard of that term
No passengers (not in revenue service).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
BTW, the train stopped at the station
Yes, we saw two of them on the #5 today, one northbound, the other southbound. Both were made up of R33 cars.
wayne
It wasn't a 2. If the 2 is short a set of R-142's, it borrows an R-62A set (from the 3, I think, or maybe from the 1). I saw one twice last week. No Redbirds anymore, much to my dismay.
There is a highly overgrown ROW ( appears to once have hosted 3-4 tracks ) with surviving catenary structures ( obviously of PRR heritage ) just east/paralell of the EWR Railink station. As you pass over this in the monorail, you can see active freight tracks about a quarter-mile to the south. To the north, this ROW and catenary can be seen heading towards Newark.
It looks like the active tracks to the south veer off to run directly abreast of the NEC northbound. Obviously, a realignment took place in this area many years ago....
Can anyone fill me in on this ROW and perhaps the timing and reasons for the realignment ?
what you are see the waverly yards from the prr era. there five "towers" controling the yard. the p&h branch to kearny and jersey city came of the east(north)end.
In the old FRR fashion, they tried to keep the freight and passenger lines seperate. At LANT interlocking the freight traffic from the middle tracks was sent under a flyover into the Waverly Yard complex. This is the area that the Airlink complex is built over. The freight main line passed to the east of the yard, under the LVRR main and then through Newark, over the GRAPE drawbridge and into the Meaddows Yard/Engine Terminal. From there the line continued through the PATH cut and into the Harsimus Cove yard on the Hudson.
OKAY!!!!What is wrong with this picture?http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/38_cno.pdf
Correct me if I'm wrong, according to
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/subsrvne.htm
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/38_cno.pdf
E runs on the F and R
F runs on the E and C
Yea...G.O. between Jay and Church. Shuttle buses from Jay to Church and shuttle trains Church to Ave X. In other words, to get from say York Street to Neptune Avenue that weekend you have to take the train to Jay, The bus to Church, The train to Ave X and then the shuttle bus to Neptune Avenue. What a mess!
-Mark
How are trains terminating at Church Avenue?
-Stef
If I was back to work, I'd look up the GO sheets.
Going north into Church Av, I would guess that trains would wrong rail via an absolute block between Ditmas Av and Church Av via 3/4 track.
From Ditmas on B2, accept bottom yellow at X-120, and proceed N on B4 to either B3 or B4 pocket at Chruch. Change ends, exit south past R10 or R18 ball. Bottom green on X-108 sends you into Ditmas on B1.
No absolute block necessary!
Mess doesn't describe it!!! But on the flip side the work has to be done sometime. Better the weekend than during the week.
Some how it seems the wrong subject line wound up in your post. Strange.
Oh Shit! I just came from Euclid Ave. Station yesterday on the C Line, so now R-46's will be rolling into my Home Station this weekend, :)
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
Yeeeeuuuup! Quite shocking is it. Not this weekend, next weekend. HMMMM I'm wondering what is the purpose of this?
simple,the track between Jay St and Bergen St,Manhattan bound,is skeletized so they gotta work on it.I'm not sure if the Ave.X bound track is the same way,I didnt notice the last time I went through there.
Don't be quiuted surprised with this G.O. on the F and C. Cause there will be more strange weird shocking G.O on other lines that TA have in stored for all of us.
I'd say someone in the printing shop made a mistake. Usually the only time the F would run to Euclid is if there was a delay in C service.
I think the sign should have read:
E trains from Jamaica Center to Euclid Ave.
Ya, I think they should run the E Train to Euclid Ave., like they did before last year, I really enjoyed the R-46's on the Local Track.
-AcelaExpress2005
It could have been a misprint. This has happened with the E. Two weekends ago, when E was running on the F The "take one" states that E runs via F between between Queens Plaza and West 4 and resume it regular route beyond S. West 4. Instead they end southbound E at 2nd Ave. At that time on the 8th Ave line, the D was replacing E to/from WTC making local stops with A throughout Manhattan. C service was suspended entirely in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
I doubt it's a mistake. The Fs have to be sent somewhere, and those Cs are ending at WTC as a result....
-Stef
No, it's not a misprint. Next weekend, the F will be running between 179th Street, Queens and Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn; the C will be running between 168th Street and Chambers Street in Manhattan; and the E will be running between Jamaica Center and Whitehall Street, Manhattan. All of this is going on at the same time. Basically, it's the G.O. to beat all general orders.
Can you picture the mass confusion all over New York next weekend? It won't be a pretty sight, folks.
Thanks providing all the infos. You bet I can picture the mass confusions. And This time all of this will go to my camera. Oh, would it be even nicer to have another shot of R46 W train with it on the same day. :)
Yeah that will be interesting....Orange on Fulton Street, and Blue on Broadway. Will the Q&W at least be on the Manhattan Bridge next weekend again?(this weekend they are not and running through the tunnel). I would assume so, otherwise Broadway would have quite a few routes running on the local tracks!
"Usually the only time the F would run to Euclid is if there was a delay in C service."
Not true.. The only time the F is ever rerouted to Euclid Avenue is if there is a stall train after Jay Street. Besides, the A line is usually the train that covers the C line when it's delayed.
N Bwy
I don't know how many people know about this, but I am gonna ask anyway, does anyone know here if there was a plan to build, in the past, another station about half way between Jefferson Street and Morgan Avenue on the L line? I had noticed, while doing a little observation outside the train heading northbound, that there is what appears to be a partially built (about 3/4 of a car length.....say 40 or 45 feet) length of station platform, located about 15 - 25 feet south of automatic signal Q2-246 on northbound Q2 track. The location has station pillars, platform, though devoid of tiling. Does anyone know of this?? I'm interested and quite curious. Anyone who may be extra, or works the L regularly (primarily motormen, but conductors can see too from the cab window)just observe outside the train northbound between Jefferson Street and Morgan Avenue, just south of Q2-246 automatic signal.
Is it closer to Morgan or to Jefferson?
Never noticed it in my previous many years of riding the "L" line. When the "L" line was first built, Morgan Ave. was the last stop in Brooklyn, and a ramp was built to "load" subway cars onto the line from trolley tracks on the street. Remember, except for the LIRR connection at Livonia, the closed one at New Lots, and the ENY connection to the yard or J line, the "L" isa isolated from the rest of the subway system
Nope, that wasn't Morgan, it was Montrose.
Morgan was the first station in the 1928 leg; you can see the difference in the way the exit signs are tiled. Also the 1928 stations have multicolored footer tile bands down near the floor - Montrose (1924) has this feature as well.
wayne
How did they get trains onto the 14th Street line before it reached the Canarsie line? Where were they kept when they went off duty?
Between Grand and Montrose thre was a ramp that connected with the LIRR at Bushwick Terminal. A block away from Montrose.
Actually, the ramp was WITHIN the Montrose Avenue station, at the north end, if you visit the station, you can see evidence of its existence, where the station ceiling is higher.
wayne
A total of 20 2700 series BMT standards provided initial service on the Canarsie line. Ridership was very low before the rest of the line was finished and tied into Broadway Junction.
Weren' the standards a pretty heavy car for the El structure at B'way Junction? I would have thought there would've been initial concerns regarding the heavy, all-steel, 75' cars.
But, you are right, the standards made Canarsie there home for many years.
Standers are 69' cars not 75'er.
Robert
Actually, the BMT Standards were 67 feet.
:-) Andrew
Right, 67'....boy did I make a BIG blooper for being a BMTman! :)
I ment 67', it was a typo.
Robert
Well, the BMT standards weren't exactly lightweights, as we all know. Only the Triplexes were heavier. Still, they could and did operate on all BMT elevated subway lines. It all boils down to axle loading or axle weight. The Dual Contracts elevated lines were sturdy enough to support even the Triplexes. Apparently even the portion of the Jamaica line over Fulton St. could handle the axle loading of the standards, but not the Triplexes.
Incidentally, the portion of the Canarsie line I was referring to was the first one to open, from 6th Ave. to Montrose Ave. It was all subway.
The "where were the cars stored" question is very interesting. I can't think of a single stretch of non-revenue track on the original Montrose-6th Ave leg of the line. I'm sure a few cars could be stored on one track at each terminal, but that's about it.
And how were they serviced?
The only non revenue track I can think of is the middle track between 6th and 8th Aves. At the time trains went only to Montrose Ave, I don't think the station at 8th Ave was open yet. Maybe at the site of 8th Av the trains were serviced there. Maybe the BRT/BMT had an arraignment with LIRR to use some of the ROW at Bushwick Jct for servicing trains or sending trains to Coney Island via Manhattan Beach/Bay Ridge Branch and the Culver line. It makes sense to me since the LIRR had abondoned their own service over there about the same time.
The Bushwick junction may be an idea, as it is right there, however, I don;t believe there was a connection there. Remember, the trains were set through the street and lowered into the subway. In order to get back to Bushwick Junction, they would have to be hoisted out.
Presently, the middle track between 8th and 6th Aves. connects to the two mainline tracks just after the scissor switch beyond 8th Ave. It ends at a bumper post just before 6th Ave. I would imagine the tracks extended beyond 6th Ave. right from the start, then the 8th Ave. station opened in 1931. There may have been a connection to the middle track at the 6th Ave. end at that time.
or maybe they stored trains on one track,and used the other for late nite service,like somewhere between 6th ave and 3rd ave stations...
Could very well be. I vivdly remember seeing trains stored on the Brooklyn-bound track as far as 3rd Ave. on winter weekends in the late 60s. Brooklyn-bound trains would wrong-rail from 8th Ave. to the scissor switch just before 3rd Ave., where they would cross over. With BMT standards or R-7/9s, you had to pay attention to the direction the train was headed in. On the R-42s, the conductor would announce, "Brooklyn train, Brooklyn train, this is an LL train to Brooklyn."
"Brooklyn-bound trains would wrong-rail from 8th Ave. to the scissor switch just before 3rd Ave., where they would cross over."
This sounds like a GO. It's hard to imagine headways more frequent than 15 minutes with that arrangement. It's happened in GOs in recent years and the signs all announced that headways would be 20 minutes.
It's been a while, But when the weather gets really cold, TA has cold westher plans. One of which would be single track operation from 3 Ave to 8 Ave. And there would be a few trains parked on the unused track.
They also used only one track in Manhattan when they were redoing the tiles at the Union Square station on the L.
"It's been a while, But when the weather gets really cold, TA has cold westher plans. One of which would be single track operation from 3 Ave to 8 Ave. And there would be a few trains parked on the unused track."
Sounds like a fine idea for bitter cold (below 0) or heavy snow. But not on any kind of a regular basis.
Yep, a similar GO was in effect yesterday. Single tracking from 3Av to Bedford Aves.
The Headway for this G.O. is 24min. I was taking to the Dispature at Rockaway last night(Thursday). The G.O. give me a drop of my fourth trip, I have to do a layup instead.
Robert
Were they doing anything in the 14th St. tunnel?
This is currently in effect from 11 PM to 5 AM only.
How long is this GO supposed to last? I noticed that we get GO sheets for our respective divisions. Since Im in the "A", I dont get to see whats going on in the "B" division, unless there is at the bottom of the "A" division page.
Good Question, especially about the servicing aspect.
I assume there must have been enough tail tracks after Montrose to store the trains (between Montrose and the future Morgan?) How long did the Montrose to 6th Ave service last before the east end of the line opened?
From 1924 until 1928, IIRC.
I'm sure in that 4 year span some serious mechanical problem befell some of the 20 Standards assigned to the line. Since this line was isolated from every rail system in NYC, not just the BMT, I'd assume all problems were fixed on the spot.
Chances are they used two- or three-car trains early on, given the fact the line carried very few people before the rest of it was finished.
Closer to Morgan.
This question came up a while back. I think someone said that it was just used for storage. I know what you are talking about. I see it too on my AM commute to 3rd Ave.
Some of the older BRT/BMT maps from the early 1920's show that the Canarsie line wasn't completed. There is a proposed station called Flushing Ave which is where Jefferson Ave is now.
Maybe, Just maybe workers started to build a station at Flushing then they had to abondon it because BRT decided on putting a station at Jefferson
Some of the older BRT/BMT maps from the early 1920's show that the Canarsie line wasn't completed. There is a proposed station called Flushing Ave which is where Jefferson Ave is now.
Actually, the Canarsie line was supposed to be originally elevated east of Montrose. That "Flushing" station probably got changed to "Jefferson" when the line was changed to underground, so that may not be the answer. One of the reasons that the Wyckoff station was designed as an "Express" station (on the M line) was because the canarsie line was supposed to come through there on an elevated structure. I believe it was an early form of NIMBY's in Bushwick that pressured them to put the line underground east of Montrose.
Trying to get an el built after 1920 was nearly impossible.
And if the Cansarie line was built as a surface line from Montrose/Morgan area to Atlantic Ave, it probably wouild have been long abondoned by now.
I believe it was intended to be elevated, so if it were built like this, it would still exist.
Most elevated in NYC were built before the neighborhoods they run through were created as they are today. Most els created demand around them after being built, they were not built to meet pre-existing demands. I have a picture of the Liberty Ave el being built in 1914/15. The neighborhood looks like a scene from "Little House On The Prarie".
If the Canarsie line was built as an elevated from Montrose to Halsey the route would have been built on a private ROW (LIRR Evergreen Route) between Wychoff and Irving. Closer to Wyckoff. Considering the Myrtle El runs the same way from Seneca to Fresh Pond, maybe the Canarsie El would also have survived.
Sounds like a topic worth going over in here.
Hi guys Just to let you know he was my C/R when he saw it. Don't tell him this but he is thw worst C/R in the system. I scardes that I might have him again becouse my regualer C/R is won't be back any time soon. From what I hear her out for good.
Justed Kidding. Paul is a good C/R and I would not mind working with him again.
Robert
LMAO!! :-) Well I must say Mr. North Eastern T/O is quite the good motorman himself. Just he needs to remember one thing......if you're on the northbound tracks at Atlantic Avenue station, the train must go north, not roll south!!! LMAO (again!!.....gotcha' Mr NE T/O!!) :-) Juss kiddin'!!! T'was a pleasure working with him, and do look forward to it again, though I think he should seriously consider the A Line, not the HELL (oops... :-P)...I mean L Line!!! :-)
Look I will pick the A when I loses some weight or they get rid of the R44's. So I might be out there one way or another some day. The only thing is that I like my south tremal to be other of Rockaway.
Robert
Well when the 160s find their way there I expect to see you there!!!
Lets hope were all around to see it happen. I am starting a strick died this weekend.
Robert
If you look closely at the Montrose Ave sta, you can see evidence of the ramp to the LIRR (look in the column webs near the center of the station, and you'll see torch-cut steel for the ramp). Also remains of a tower (Canarsie-bound, rear end of platform) and a short pit (again Canarsie-bound, just beyond the front of the platform).
I believe there was also a layup track between Union Sq and 6th ave, in use when the line ended at 6th Ave. The car requirements must have been fairly low before the line was extended to Myrtle Ave and East NY, Walter Druck told me he recalled riding single car trains there at night in the 20s.
I have finally taken the bold step of upgrading my computer to Windows XP. So far the installation has worked out O.K., but there are a few bugs to work out as of yet. My Opera web browser isn't working properly at this time and I have no sound so I can't play my subway sounds yet, OH DRAT! I'm gradually solving these problems one by one. At least I can get on the Internet and post messages on Sub Talk. Fortunately I installed Windows XP on a BRAND NEW hard drive while keeping Windows 98SE on the hard drive that came with the computer.
#3 West End Jeff
Windows XP is a AOL verion of 2000. XP takes up twice the system resources that a 2000 machine takes. While XP requires 400 mhz + processoe, 128mb ram. 2000 will do fine on a pentium (non-MMX) 166 with 64 mbs of ram. MS word runs, Internet exploer, Mozilla is a little bit slow, plays mpgs using media player 6.4 (on simlar system MP 7 froze at 100% cpu usage), mp3s with WinAmp, wordperfect 8 runs quickly. Now will the XP installer allow you to installl on a 64mb machine? Never!
I don't have money to burn on 2 ghz+ systems. Windows 2000 will run on all x86 PCs with a 686 processor (Pentium Pro, II, AMD k6, k6-2, k6-2+). And some pentium board will run it. Cheap pentium boards will create a stop message if you try to run 2000 since the manufactures didn't want you to run 2000's predissor NT 4.0 on them ("buy our more expensive ones then!").
I don't have a 2 GHz system either. I have an 800 HMz Pentium III processor. I have 256 MB of memory on my machine. I bought a second 80GB hard drive from Dell for just $115.00. I still have the old one which is formatted for Windows 98SE. I still have a couple of bugs to work out, otherwise my machine is quite usable on the net.
#3 West End Jeff
I've heard too many bad stories about Windows XP.
When I upgraded from 98 to ME, I had a whole lot of problems to work out. It was really a pain in the backside. I actually wanted to go back to 98, but by playing around with the computer, I corrupted the 98 program, so I had to keep ME.
Now all the bugs are fixed and my computer finally runs all right. I'll be damned if I do that again.
We use Win2K and Win XP almost exclusivly. I think there are two Win98 boxes running and one WinNT box. Most copies of XP that we run are on new machines bought with XP. Mine is a 350MHz box with 256 MB RAM and handles XP ok.
The Abbot's box had a sick motherboard from the git go, and Systemax finaly replaced the mother board and since they did not have any as small as what was in it they upgraded it to a Celeron running at 900.
Windows 2000 would not run on it, but Windows XP Professional has no problem with it. It must have been a glitch in some of the on board graphics sutff, and XP is more toleerant of audio and graphis than 2K.
The Kebros tickets are bit of a problem on my box, but I can live with it.
Elias
Well XP's driver tests are non-excistant, atleast you know that win2k drivers were thoughroly tested as compared to XP's windows 98 FE quality drivers. Stock install of XP, no special drivers, 23 mins boot time, 20 mins at the windows XP progress bar. This a Athlon 1.2 GHZ my friend has with 512mb of ram. Though he is forced to reboot his system at intervals of 3 weeks but after 1 day one of his cd burners freezes and the drive bay won't open (removed it). Which is better than the Compaq Persario 7478 I'am typing at right now. Which curently crashes every 8-10 days now that it has SP-3. Before SP-3 it had SP-2 which it did at the most 2 1/2 days before Stop message in either tcpip.sys, win32k.sys, or the sound blaster live driver. Also the win2000 compaq 7478 had only 16 colors before I found a Via (not the canadian railroad!)/Trident video driver for the built-in video card. I have another computer (HP Pentium Pro) that has NEVER!! crashed except that time a drop of water hit the memory and instant power off. When I wipe off the water and turned it on again and it has been running non-stop from since then. There was luckaly no damage caused by the water.
Well XP's driver tests are non-excistant, atleast you know that win2k drivers were thoughroly tested as compared to XP's windows 98 FE quality drivers. Stock install of XP, no special drivers, 23 mins boot time, 20 mins at the windows XP progress bar. This a Athlon 1.2 GHZ my friend has with 512mb of ram. Though he is forced to reboot his system at intervals of 3 weeks but after 1 day one of his cd burners freezes and the drive bay won't open (removed it). Which is better than the Compaq Persario 7478 I'am typing at right now. Which curently crashes every 8-10 days now that it has SP-3. Before SP-3 it had SP-2 which it did at the most 2 1/2 days before Stop message in either tcpip.sys, win32k.sys, or the sound blaster live driver. Also the win2000 compaq 7478 had only 16 colors before I found a Via (not the canadian railroad!)/Trident video driver for the built-in video card. I have another computer (HP Pentium Pro) that has NEVER!! crashed except that time a drop of water hit the memory and instant power off. When I wipe off the water and turned it on again and it has been running non-stop from since then. There was luckaly no damage caused by the water. It is currently runing Win2k Professinal and it is in a distributed computing thing (simlar to seti@home but no aliens) running 24/7. So are all my other computers. Hey I might as well use those kilowatts for something productive instead of just heating the house. And running 6 computers 24/7 is heating the house in addition to helping a cause.
I've got Win2K, 233MHz, 64MB ram, on a 6 gig partition. I've also got a 40 gig drive which has no programs at all on it, just files. Makes it a hell of a lot easier to defragment and when I'm not using files, the HD is off, keeping the computer cooler.
I don't have the luxury of being able to defragment my media drive (80 gigs, use the HD that came with PC to store programs(2-8 gigs). I have a avi (you should know what it is if your into movies) movie that is in 93,000 fragments according to Diskkeeper. And I always keep winmx on so I can't ever get enough disk time to defragment (diskkepper will quit if there is high disk I/O). And the last time I tried to defragment 60 gigs it took 3 days per pass and took 4 passes to get it to a low amount of fragments.
I only keep AVIs for as long as it takes to make them MPGs. Then I burn them onto CDs.
I try to keep defragmented as much as possible.
I defragment my hard drive every week or two. I also defragment the external hard drive at the same time I defragment the computer's hard drive.
#3 West End Jeff
Windows ME is a bug unto itself. I haven't heard too many good things about Windows ME. I still have some bugs to work out with a couple of programs that just won't work right with Windows XP. Namely my Opera web browser will not work and one or two other programs as well. At least I have Windows XP on a separate hard drive. In the meantime I'm still using the hard drive formatted for Windows 98SE since all of my programs are working on it. Eventually I'll get the bugs worked out with Windows XP.
#3 West End Jeff
If you ever get XPee debugged, send ME a copy of it. Heh. As bad as MiniME is, it's nowhere near as futtbucked as XPee, and if you've gotten that "Service puck" installed on XPee, what did work doesn't any longer. Then again, for most people who have Win98, even Xpee is an improvement to a degree. You'd think that the richest boy on the planet could afford to hire a few decent coders. :)
Because Billy & Co. have never written a piece of code from scratch. DOS was basicly bought from a little Seattle shop and added to from there.
Windows was orginally developed to run on DOS, and Win95 was built from Windows 3. (It had to run both 16-bit and 32-bit software, and the FDISK that came with it couldn't support a partition greater than 2 GIG) Along came Win95 second release, which did have a FDISK that would support larger single partions. That begot Win98, which was all the patches that were written for Win95 without the 17 floppy disks you needed. ME is 98 with a little dressing and a couple of cosmetic changes. Win2K and XP are based on the code written for NT4, which as almost everybody knows is not crashproof.
Of course, Bill has brainwashed almost everybody to believe that MS software and O/S's is the best money can buy. That includes NYCT, who run the MetroCard machines on NT. Some of us know better.
Heh. I make a living cleaning up Billy's messes. Wouldn't have it any other way. :)
And who of us knew that "NT" and "2K" and "XPEE" are the piece of the original joint venture between Billy and IBM that resulted in OS/2? IBM let Microsoft keep the broken part of OS/2 that IBM didn't want and that was what became NTee. Small little inbred world. And Yes, I remember S-DOS too. That's why us Altair owners were hysterical when Billy wanted to sell us BASIC when we already had it. (grin)
Ironically, although the first versions of OS/2 were truly terrible (since they ran on the brain-damaged 80286 processors), the later ones were very stable, and would also run the 32-bit Windows applications quite successfully.
OS/2 hasn’t died: it’s just gone into hiding a little. Many Fortune 500 companies have built applications on it, that just run. IBM itself uses OS/2 as the code base for a lot of embedded applications (hardware controllers for their mainframes etc), that have to be reliable.
I have yet to see an original idea come out of Redmond. Microsoft is very good at taking other people’s ideas and redoing them, but can anyone tell me a single piece of original software that Billy developed from scratch?
John
And whatever happened to DR-DOS?
"Digital Research" got acquired by the morons at Caldera Corp and was OPEN SOURCED! You can download DR-DOS and the SOURCE for it from www.caldera.com. They bought it in order to sue Microsoft for what Microsoft DID to DR-DOS and they WON. I actually coded up a solution for DR-DOS 5.0 to work as a base for Windows 3.1 and 3.11 that made it *extremely* stable and distributed the adjusted code to two NYS agencies for use with Novell Networks. Wasn't until the agencies converted to Win95 that it finally gave way to Billyworld and at that point, the agencies found out what they had given up as far as reliability went.
But it's STILL out there and widely used. As an example, HOYT'S theatres STILL use DR-DOS for their ticketing systems as do many others for point of sale applications. It just ... works. Can't have THAT I s'pose. :)
I think that's what's known as "Oh Burger".
The MVM and the TVMs should have been made with linux since they won't be paying $60 per VM for the OS, in addition to the vending machine program they run. Plus the end user doesn't need to know linux. But X windows (huge collection of video card drivers for linux, plus basic GUI components) is really unresponsive. They could always get a commercial X windows program.
Or use KDE!
I would think about using a low end emmbedded AMD pentium grade processor. Like the AMD 133 mhz DX5. They are cheap. Also a "System-on-a-chip" emmbedded board. You can have a 320X240 screen because the video card can expand it or the CRT's circuts. Also does that hand that point to the start button really have to be sharp? The entire screen can be a low resolution since there isn't much detail in them. If I had the steel, paper bills, credit card, coin reader and metrocard reader/writer, change dispenser. I would build you a MVM runing off a 200mhz< but <100mhz processor and a emmbeded linux or QNX for $500 excluding labor and not including the things above since I'am not in the mood to go looking at ATM part sellers right now for prices.
Well, I'm having a few problems with Windows XP. Fortunately, I'm not having crashes, but I can't get the Opera web browser to work with Windows XP. There are a few other issues as well. On the plus side, Windows XP works faster than Windows 98SE. In the meantime, I'm using the hard drive formatted for Windows 98SE until I get the bugs worked out with Windows XP.
#3 West End Jeff
Why does Amtrak most of the time doublehead the AEM-7 Locomotives? Is it for more power or higher speed?
-AcelaExpress2005
It depends on the number of cars in the consist. Generally, one AEM7 can pull 10 cars. Anything above ten cars requires a second motor.
Michael
Washington, DC
Below are the following reasons why two AEM-7s haul a train.
(1) There are more than 10 coaches. An AEM-7AC can haul more than 10 coaches.Sometimes two AEM-7s may haul an eight-car Metroliner because more power is necessary to maintain high speed.
(2) One of the two engines is down.
(3) Locomotive dispatchment. If you see two AEM-7s hauling a six-car train, this is one of the reasons.
(4) Speacial train like the Congress train using two AEM-7ACs. One of them is used as a backup loco.
Chaohwa
Oh ok, but is one of the two engines are down, how is it able to move? I never see them do that with the HHP-8's though.
-AcelaExpress2005
That's cuz HHP-8's are poorly designed. They cannot be MU'ed like AEM-7's can. AEM-7's also has problems MUing in certain power supply areas, but at least they are supposed to work.
HHP-8's will sometimes be dispatched double-headed, but you will notice one of the pans is usually down. I don't think they can control the rear HHP-8 from the front, if the one in the front is faulty. They are generally an operating nightmare. I've seen two HHP-8's leaving Boston during that week when the Acela first began cracking, before HHP-8's were pulled. I think they use HHP-8's on the BOS trains, which is why you don't see them in pairs very often.
AEM-7's can probably haul more than ten cars, but they just can't keep speed for more than ten cars. I've seen two F-40's haul about 14 cars and that is much less power than generated from a single AEM-7AC. If the load is heavy, AEM-7's will have to start off very slowly because it is a relatively light locomotive, but I am sure it can be done. I also dno't think the HEP load will be a problem unless it's an insanely long consist like 30 cars or something.
AEM7
Ive seen a HHP-8 MUed with a F40 before, I think I posted the picture here before on SubTalk, The F40 was leading and the HHP-8 was at the rear of the Trainset bring up the markers. I wish they would already hurry up and make the Acela HHP-8.
-AcelaExpress2005
Ive seen a HHP-8 MUed with a F40 before, I think I posted the picture here before on SubTalk, The F40 was leading and the HHP-8 was at the rear of the Trainset bring up the markers...
No, I posted that photo and http://web.mit.edu/lexcie/www/bos/hhp8-diesel-bos2.jpg">a second one. And it was not an F-40, it was a GP-40MC 525 (now numbered different) that used to belong to Toronto Transit GO. The HHP-8 failed at Hyde Park, about 8 miles from South Station, so the dispatched the BOS yard switcher (525 at the time) to rescue it. It still took 40 mins and screwed up the Commuter Rail royally. Saturday pm, so not a peak hour.
525 has since been renumbered and allocated to probably Harrisburg or out West. I last saw a GP-40MC at HBG (there are only I think about 3 of them running around the system, and they keep on being renumbered so they are kind of hard to track)
BOS yard switcher was 525, then an F-40, is now a Genesis. Amtrak has too many locomotives and no cars.
AEM7
That's not the picture I was talking about, I posted a different picture, Let's see where's that pic, AHH here it is:
I think that's a cabbage. But we had discussed this before. Maybe it's HHP-8 under push-pull test, before the cabbage conversions. Does anyone know if F-40's can control HHP-8's without additional retro fits?
AEM7
That's a "cabbage" F-40 - it's been stripped of its prime mover and the space converted to baggage, but it's got a set of controls in the cab so the train can run in push mode.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, I don't think that's a cabbage. Most cabbages are painted in Phase IV and that's clearly in phase III, and look at the rack of coaches. The coaches are all in Phase III. And anyways cabbages don't run on the PRR. I think that's one of those one-off TEST situations, before they decided not to use cabbage for the Clocker/Keystone service.
The Clocker would be far more efficient with some kind of push-pull. Evidently, HHP-8's weren't up to the task. I am surprised to see that AEM-7's have not been trialled for push-pull. Maybe it's some kind of MU jumper issue. A 14-car Clocker with one AEM-7's at each end would be far more efficient than two 7-car Clockers.
AEM7
HHP-8s are back in service now.
Chaohwa
HHP-8s are a Bombardier product? More cans of Plattsburgh monkey turds on wheels.
That's right.
Chaohwa
Geee, how much harder can we peg the BS meter today?
They cannot be MU'ed like AEM-7's can. AEM-7's also has problems MUing in certain power supply areas, but at least they are supposed to work.
The HHP-8 can in fact MU, and in fact, can MU with an AEM-7, also.
HHP-8's will sometimes be dispatched double-headed, but you will notice one of the pans is usually down. I don't think they can control the rear HHP-8 from the front, if the one in the front is faulty. They are generally an operating nightmare. I've seen two HHP-8's leaving Boston during that week when the Acela first began cracking, before HHP-8's were pulled. I think they use HHP-8's on the BOS trains, which is why you don't see them in pairs very often.
If the pan's down, it's out of service, and likely a move to get it into a shop. Amtrak avoids MUing electrics because they don't have enough of them.
AEM-7's can probably haul more than ten cars, but they just can't keep speed for more than ten cars.
The AEM'7s car limits are more HEP than anything - they can pull rather long trains, but only supply 500KW of HEP.
I've seen two F-40's haul about 14 cars and that is much less power than generated from a single AEM-7AC.
One AEM-7 could handle that many, if not for HEP issues.
If the load is heavy, AEM-7's will have to start off very slowly because it is a relatively light locomotive, but I am sure it can be done.
Of course it can. An AEM-7 outpulls an F-40 in every way. It's got a higher starting TE, much more HP, and higher top speed.
I also dno't think the HEP load will be a problem unless it's an insanely long consist like 30 cars or something.
HEP is the problem. The AEM-7s just don't supply a lot of HEP. Every other loco Amtrak has can supply more. But the AEM-7s were never intended to be pulling super long trains anyway.
What is HEP? Is it some sort of auxillary power?
Dan
Head End Power provides power for the electrical equipment in the coaches - A/C, heat, lights, etc.
Back in the days of steam (even on the electrified and diesel-hauled lines) passenger cars were heated by steam from the locomotive (diesels and electrics had a steam generator) and carried electrical generation equipment of some sort for lights and, later, A/C. Now all that is supplied by electricity from the locomotive.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HEP stand for Head End Power, meaning that it supplies the Passenger Cars with power.
-AcelaExpress2005
Geee, how much harder can we peg the BS meter today?
Just checked with someone down in Southampton St.:
The HHP-8 can in fact MU, and in fact, can MU with an AEM-7, also.
My source asserts: "Well, you probably could... I've never seen it done, I've never done it, and anyway why the hell would you want to? I only know that the jumpers will go in, but the control system is totally different, I don't see how I could run an HHP-8 from the front... it will cough like hell."
HHP-8's and AEM-7s have very different control systems, and power-response characteristics. MUing them would be murder.
Amtrak avoids MUing electrics because they don't have enough of them.
That's also not true. Amtrak's car shortages are in coaches and not in locomotives. If you think Amtrak is short of electrics, you will not find the likes of AEM-7 #915 acting as the Philly yard goat. An E-60 is more than adequate for that task. Besides, there are brake issues with AEM-7 switching freight cars.
The AEM'7s car limits are more HEP than anything - they can pull rather long trains, but only supply 500KW of HEP.
And 500kW is how much? 670hp -- not that much different from the 700hp F-40's and Genesises supply. Each car also have different HEP requirements, for instance, a dining car has higher HEP requirements than the rest of the fleet. HEP calculations are not that simple. The limiting factor is often the cable loading. Even if you MU'ed up four Genesises, there is still a limit to the amount of HEP you can draw, due to cabling constraints. I don't know what the constraint is in amperage, mind you.
I've seen two F-40's haul about 14 cars and that is much less power than generated from a single AEM-7AC.
One AEM-7 could handle that many, if not for HEP issues.
Yes, at reduced acceleration and top speeds. Again, this depends on terrain, but of course the NEC is flat, so given enough spacing between stations, the lone AEM-7 could probably still hit 125mph. However, the acceleration will be far more sluggish than would be acceptable on the NEC. There is a reason for the ten car limit.
Of course it can. An AEM-7 outpulls an F-40 in every way. It's got a higher starting TE, much more HP
On starting your train, AEM-7's are adhesion limited in most railhead conditions, while F-40's are usually horsepower limited. You can push out to Run 8 on an F-40 when starting (as long as you watch the traction motor current) but you can't usually do it on an AEM-7. The traction motors are rated so high that if you push the power right up you'll just spin the locomotive exactly where it sits.
AEM7
On starting your train, AEM-7's are adhesion limited in most railhead conditions, while F-40's are usually horsepower limited.
So?
You can push out to Run 8 on an F-40 when starting (as long as you watch the traction motor current) but you can't usually do it on an AEM-7.
There's wheelslip control on the AEM-7. In fact, the system used is better than the F-40's. The AEM-7 has the neat ability to sense when all the wheels start slipping at once. This was laid out in Asea's patent in the mid 70's. Very interesting system how it works.
The traction motors are rated so high that if you push the power right up you'll just spin the locomotive exactly where it sits.
See above. I've been on AEM-7 hauled trains that have started in icy conditions on the grades approaching the Hell Gate. A tad slow at first, but once they break 15-20mph, they acelerate normally.
Yes, the AEM-7 and HHP-8 MU, but who knows how well, or why amtrak even requested that ability (IMHO, it shows they have no idea about anything electric traction, but anyway...)
As for shortages? Yes, Amtrak has an electric shortage. It's why the Harrisburg line is still running diesel, even though PA has been paying Amtrak to upgrade and run electrics. Amtrak's got a flood or brand new, and frankly, pretty crappy, diesels, a lot of sidelined, but functional F-40s. The E-60's were supposed to be gone by now, but Amtrak's starting to kick around rebuilding them, because they have a motor shortage right now.
See above. I've been on AEM-7 hauled trains that have started in icy conditions on the grades approaching the Hell Gate. A tad slow at first, but once they break 15-20mph, they acelerate normally.
Yes, in icy conditions, you have to start slowly, and then you can accelerate normally. In normal rail conditions with an exceptionally heavy load, you have to start slowly AND you cannot accelerate normally because you are having to put more energy into your train. Phil, think through your physics before you claim that I'm spouting bullshit.
As for shortages? Yes, Amtrak has an electric shortage. It's why the Harrisburg line is still running diesel, even though PA has been paying Amtrak to upgrade and run electrics.
Actually, no. Harrisburg line is running diesel because there is no reason to go electric. With the amount of spare diesel they have lying around, why not use them? There are spare electrics around if they changed their vehicle operating plans a little and generally reshuffled the deck. But probably not enough to cover all the Keystone services. So from that perspective they HAVE a shortage of electrics, but only IF you include the numbers needed for the Keystone service, which isn't technically electric yet. Of course there is a shortage if you want to add additional electric service. DUH.
AEM7
Good points.
However, the Keystone service's schedule suffers due to the need to change from diesel to electric power in Philadelphia. With an all-electric service, the train could make better time from Harrisburg to New York.
You would still have to swap power in Philadelphia because the train reverses direction. The power would be on the "wrong" end going to New York.
Michael
Washington, DC
Not if Amtrak realigned the locomotive at Harrisburg. An extra switch or two might have to be built there (don't know)
Also: The train could operate in push mode if that would mean it arrived at 30th Street with its loco pointing to New York. You'd need a cab control car as the last car...
NJT operates in push mode at 80 mph. Don;t know if you're not allowed to do that at higher speeds.
You certainly can. MARC runs push-pulls Baltimore to DC with an AEM-7 on the back (out of Baltimore Penn) and can run at track speed, which is 110 MPH. If MARC has a motor shortage and diesels are used, MAS drops to 90.
"The limiting factor is often the cable loading. Even if you MU'ed up four Genesises, there is still a limit to the amount of HEP you can draw, due to cabling constraints. I don't know what the constraint is in amperage, mind you."
An interesting point. Residential power cables that you hook up to your house from the electric company's power line supports 100 or 200 amps, depending on the size (thickness) of the cable. Commercial businesses are commonly hooked up to 300 amp cables.
Genesis Loco's put out 1,100 HP.
-AcelaExpress2005
Check those numbers again.
Im talking about in HEP power.
HEP is measured in KiloWatt.
As long as the train can function properly, the down engine can be acted as one of the coaches.
Two years ago I rode an Amtrak train hauled by AEM-7 950 to NY. The train had HEP problems so that the train had to be stopped between Baltimore and Philadelphia. Amtrak dispatched AEM-7 922 to assist my train. However, the air conditioner still did not function properly between Philly and NY.
Chaohwa
Oh, so its like the AEM-7 is switched to neutral, allowing the Leading AEM-7 to haul the dead one, correct?
-AcelaExpress2005
That's right.
Chaohwa
An AEM-7AC can haul more than 10 coaches.
Presumably #924 is one of the rebuilt AC's, since Friday evening it was hauling train 97 Silver Meteor by itself. The Meteor had two head-end cars (one Ambox and one baggage), a dormmitory car, and nine passenter cars for a total of 12.
Yesterday sometime between 5:28pm and 6:20pm I saw that there was a M-2 that was on fire. this was 1/2 a mile north of the crossover from Cantanary to DC, on Metro-North. This was on the 5:28 from GCT to South Norwalk. The rear car had so much smoke coming out from underneath near the middel, no one could see it's car number. The engineer couldn't say the number so I heard they called 2-3 trains and asked them to check for smoke. I never heard what happend because he turned off (lowered volume) the radio. Anyone know what happened to the burning train?
P.S. I didn't see flames but heavy thick white smoke coming out from underneath the train near the middel of the rear car (new haven pointing). At first I thought it was a balast tamper but the smoke was to heavy for it to be a balast tamper.
Heh. Sounds like either the propulsion gear got wasted (probbbably the semiconductor parts, those always burn nice), or the transformer popped. Car goofed up the switchover or something was blown in it. That must have had a nice smell. How thick was the smoke?
couldn't see the stain-less steel on the side of the car in the imdiate vivinity. Worse than a dumpster fire. Imagine covering a camp fire with leves and straw and the kind of smoke that makes. On the track where my train was on you could just see there was a curve ahead because of the brown colored stone on the retaining wall.
Also the last 5 cars weren't in serivce (no lights). I only saw 2 people in the first car which I guess were MNRR employes, all the other cars were empty; in addition to the engineer. I don't think this train was in revenue service.
I saw a sign along the LIRR ROW at the Bethpage Station of the Ronkonkoma branch. The sign is on the south side of the tracks adjacent to the 2nd or 3rd car when the train is in the station. It says:
TRESSPASSING AFTER 6 PM IS ILLEGAL
It just struck me as odd!
It might be referring to the adjacent property on the south side, which for many years was the Grumman Corp. factory and complex.
My uncle worked there in 1968-69 during Apollo's heyday. He helped design the life support systems on the LEM.
This is where the LEM was built and where the F-14 was assembled (it flight tested for the first time at Calverton in 1972).
At what time, exactly, does "trespassing" become legal again?
That's why I found the sign so strange.............
>>That's why I found the sign so strange.............<<
Maybe the LIRR is strange !
Bill "Newkirk"
I'm actually not sure if it's a LIRR sign or if it is belongs to the owner of the adjacent property.
Ever see a road sign saying "Drug Free School Zone"?
Ever see "END Drug Free School Zone"?
Or "Drug Filled School Zone"?
Sorry, that last one was redundant.
Or those announcements about "personal belongings" - has anyone ever seen an impersonal belonging and if so what is the difference?
My personal favourite are the display screens on the Class 165's which can only show one line at a time - they say such profound things:
STATIONS CAN
(long wait)
CAUSE DELAY.
(Yes, I did look up after the lines "Belongings left" and "on trains or at")
The MTA website appears to have posted an erroneous message about the IRT 1 2 3 9 restoration scheduled for tomorrow morning.
It says: 1 9 Run to South Ferry (CORRECT)
1 9 Runs express in Manhattan (INCORRECT, should be 2 3)
2 3 Runs to New Lots Av (PARTIALLY CORRECT - only 3 to New Lots, 2 always to Flatbush).
Hopefully our NYCT friends will see this and correct it.
But let's not be negative. More important is that NYCT and its contractors did a spectacular job rebuilding the 1 9 line south of Chambers in record time. KUDOS!
More important is that NYCT and its contractors did a spectacular job rebuilding the 1 9 line south of Chambers in record time. KUDOS!
With lots of money, all things are possible.
(More important is that NYCT and its contractors did a spectacular job rebuilding the 1 9 line south of Chambers in record time. KUDOS! )
(With lots of money, all things are possible. )
Without political bullshit, procedural bullshit, NIMBY bullshit, environmental bullshit, union bullshit, and contractor profiteering, you don't even need the money. The 1/9 restoration was fast and cheap, the workers made good money (lots of OT) and no one got hurt. The reason -- no bullshit.
It could be done elsewhere, if people demanded it.
Now, if we could get by the bullshit, and get the towers back up (like the restoration of the Subway lines), we'd be really cookin'.
BRING BACK THE TWIN TOWERS NOW!
>>BRING BACK THE TWIN TOWERS NOW!<<
I like you and others would like the Twin Towers back, but my pessimism says it won't happen. Since 9/11, the Empire State building lost some office space in the upper floors and it's still difficult to rent that space out again. Also if the towers return, will the current youth in the mideast become tomorrow's terrorists figuring a way to fly a jet aircraft loaded with explosives to recreate what their heros did ?
Also today, we still can't figure out what to build there. Some people say recreate everything as before 9/11. Others say build a couple of shorter buildings with a memorial. And others say, make the entire site a memorial because it's hallowed ground.
So the future doesn't loo too good. This may take years to solve. Or if you're optomistic, maybe not.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have a suggestion and I am very serious about it...
On plans there are life vests stored in case a plane ditches in water....why not have parachutes by the windows on the upper floors of high rises...
>>On plans there are life vests stored in case a plane ditches in water....why not have parachutes by the windows on the upper floors of high rises<<
Won't help the people killed on the floors where the plane impacts and those dying from smoke inhalation refusing to jump. Looks like the hise rise skyscraper is dead.
Bill "Newkirk"
It most certainly is not. The skyscraper (albeit perhaps not 110 stories)is quite practical, and while chat sites like this one will abound with exaggerated fears, rationality and practicality still rules in the board rooms of government and business.
>>The skyscraper (albeit perhaps not 110 stories)is quite practical, and while chat sites like this one will abound with exaggerated fears, rationality and practicality still rules in the board rooms of government and business.<<
And the Empire State buildings' problem with renting out the vacated upper floors ? Wouldn't want to see them build new twin skyscrapers and failing to rent out the upper floors.
It may be too soon to tell, but 9/11 not only may have affected that but also liability insurance rates in those upper floors. Also fire safety in new and existing high rises. All because of a band of towelheads taking orders from a cave dweller !
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a temporary issue, a red herring which means very little. Comeback in two years and look at the ESB's rentals then.
As to the rest, yes, insurance and building codes will change.
I can only speculate that are calling skip stop (one of my favorite topics) "express". Quite a strech!
Yes. Skip-stop is nothing like express service. Quite ironic, since they continue to use the 'Skip-Stop' name as well.
It is actually the opposite of express service, since in the case of the 1 line, it actually makes the trips of most people slower, not faster.
I wonder why the MTA even continues such a ridiculous service policy. I'm assuming the regular fare public have no idea about this.
That's not entirely true. However,the missing element is passenger access to a reliable schedule. If you want a 9 train and know when to show upat the platform for it, the skip stop will get you home faster.
Additionally, skip-stop shares another quality with express - it redistributes load. With skip-stop, you are much more likely to get a seat on the train, or at least to have a little more personal space around you when riding.
Ron,
In theory you may be correct, but I think in practice there is a factor that throws this off. On the 1/9, they have made 191 an "all-stop" station while making Dyckman Street a #1 only. I know the stats published here a few times don't bear my out, but from using the line everyday, I can attest that a significantly greater number of people use Dyckman Street than 191. David Greenberger pointed out that the stats published here were from the period 181 was closed for rebuilding; most likely shifting people who would have used 181 (which I feel should be all stop, it serves a university and the bus terminal) to 191, inflating ridership numbers for 191.
So if more people must wait for the 1 (Dyckman Street passengers), the loading shifting or spreading doesn't really work out.
So you're offering evidence that, at minimum, part of the current scheme would need some adjustment. I accept that. I'm not convinced it should be totally scrapped, though.
Assuming the load shifting is valid, I still cannot see the justification for keeping skip stop on the 1/9. I see the value on the J/Z, due to the distance and number of stops involved, it is a time saver for everyone. The time lost waiting for the proper train (at skipped stations) is at least made up by skipping numerous stations. On the 1/9, the most you can skip is four stops (and only for passengers boarding at 242 and getting a 9 (the 1 only skips three stations).
I would like to find David Greenberger's analysis of this question, I'm sure I saved it to a file in my Outlook, but that is on the fritz today. But assuming 6 minute headways, and a maximun saving of 4 minutes, the numbers really don't seem to add up. Minutes and seconds can be massaged and we can come up with many permutations of the value (or lack thereof) for the 1/9 skip/stop. But I think the overriding factor is that the maximum upside is very small and even the time spent by the C/R's to adjust the signs four times a day would seem to out weight the value gained. The maximun negative is on morning rush hour trains for at 157 and 145 (especially 145), they lose time if the first train in does not stop at their station, but those at 157 gain a skip of ONE whole entire stop for their extra waiting. Those at 145 gain ZERO stops skipped for the waiting they do. I'm sure the only reason those stations are on the skip/stop program is that with out them, the 1 would only skip two stops and the 9 would only skip three. If you get down to two or three maximum skips, you are really approaching ZERO value.
IIRC, his conclusion was that the average rider LOST 12 seconds by skip-stop being in operation. He also was very careful to round numbers in favour of skip-stop where he had to do some rounding, so it's probably more than 12 seconds. I seem to remember he commented that it only worked if you valued some riders more than others. How's that for a republic?
Thanks,
I remembered he did an outstanding job and went out of his way to not bias his outcome in either direction. The point of valueing some customers more than others is an age old problem, be it real or imagined (and over time, both have been the case). The current 1/9 really only benefits those at 242 and 231 (the northern most "al stop" stations). You can make the case that this makes sense in that both are connection points with several bus line, so you are not valuing some customers over others, you are just providing improved service to as many as possible. On the other hand, those bus lines serve Riverdale and the Westchester suburbs, higher income areas than those surrounding 238, 225, 215, 207, Dyckman, 157 and 145; so the cinical could say the TA is favoring higher income customers over the lower income customers. I'm not advocating either here, I think this skip/stop on the 1/9 was simply some buracrat's hot idea that got him and his bosses a bonus or promotion; now no one want to admit it doesn't work.
Thanks for the praise, but it's not necessary: I simply took the 1999 ridership counts that David posted here and the running times off the August 2001 (formerly) posted schedule and plugged everything into a calculator.
I actually biased everything I could in favor of skip-stop -- and skip-stop still lost. If not all passengers from the north go all the way to or past 137th (reducing the time savings skip-stop produces), or some passengers travel between 1-only and 9-only stations, or some trains save less than 2 minutes from 242nd to 137th (the schedule shows a range of 0-2 minutes), then skip-stop fares even worse. The one unplanned bias in favor of all-stop is that I used the 1999 numbers, which are deflated at 181st due to the station rehab.
Here's the Usenet post where I worked out the numbers: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=lmb6jpyu.fsf%40email.com
I'm generally a bit hesitant to accuse the TA of favoring some customers over others, because most such accusations have little basis in fact. However, I'm still searching for a better explanation for skip-stop at 145th and 157th.
Write to them and ask them.
I see your point.
It's worth a letter to the TA, with your reasoning laid out, to see how the TA responds to it.
Ron,
Can you provide the address of who to contact at the TA to write to share my views with? You are correct, if we don't let the powers that be know how we, the riding public, feel ,the can't do much. The fact that 1 now stops at 191 is proof that you can get changes made.
Write to:
Douglas Sussman, Deputy Director
MTA Govt. and Community Relations
347 Madison Av
NY NY 10017
or:
Lawrence Reuter, President
NYC Transit Authority
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn NY 11201
Hmm, me knocking into this thread!?
Where do you get that info? Do you work for the MTA?
No. I got it originally the same way you could get it- by looking them up in the phone book.
Here are the ridership stats:
AVERAGE WEEKDAY RIDERSHIP:
1999:
191st Street: 6,121
Dyckman Stret: 5,764
2000:
191st Street: 6,301
Dyckman Street: 6,100
2001:
191st Street: 6,512
Dyckman Street: 6,351
So, 191st Street is busier on an average weekday than Dyckman Street, but not by very much.
David
OK,
Figures don't lie, but I must admit I'm surprized. I ride the line everyday (often several times), and it certainly seems that more people use Dyckman than 191. I make that statement based on both pre and post 9/11 service patterns.
In any event, 191 was initially a 9 only stop (I believe), giving both the 1 and 9 four skipped stops. Now the 1 only skips three stops and the 9 four. I think I read somewhere that the residents of the area contacted the powers that be to get the station made all stop. The ridership figures do not bear out my original proposal that Dyckman deserved to be an "all stop" over 191, but they do bear out that the two stations are virutally identical in ridership and both should be skipped stop (only one train stops). If we have to live with this misguided service pattern, I'd at least like to save the maximun 4 mintues on the 1 train. Now I'm cheated out of about 30 seconds or so! Restoring 191 to 9 stop only, will give those of us who use the 1 our full 4 minutes savings (after we lose 6 minutes waiting for the 1 train!)
That's not entirely true. However,the missing element is passenger access to a reliable schedule. If you want a 9 train and know when to show upat the platform for it, the skip stop will get you home faster.
Skip-stop runs during rush hour, when many if not most passengers have schedule constraints imposed by others. Let's simplify things and say that there's a 1 train leaving Times Square every ten minutes on the 0's and a 9 train leaving every Times Square every ten minutes on the 5's. I get out of work at 5:00 and it takes me six minutes to walk to the platform at Times Square, and only the 9 takes me home. I have to wait nine minutes for my train. Without skip-stop, I'd wait only four minutes. Yes, the ride would be 0-2 minutes longer (according to the 8/01 public 1/9 timetable), but I'd still get home 3-5 minutes earlier without skip-stop.
If I don't have complete control over my schedule and I'm at or bound for a skip-stop station, there's a 50% chance that the first train that will reach my station will be one that I can't use.
Additionally, skip-stop shares another quality with express - it redistributes load. With skip-stop, you are much more likely to get a seat on the train, or at least to have a little more personal space around you when riding.
How do you figure? The train makes fewer stops but it picks up twice as many passengers at the stops it does make. Think about it this way: if, during a given time period, 12 trains travel from 242nd to 137th, and during that time period 12,000 passengers board SB trains between 242nd and 137th, an average of 100 passengers will have boarded each train, regardless of which trains make which stops. If one train is emptier than average, then another train is more crowded than average, and that's hardly helpful.
But you're considering passenger load without destination. The relationship between the two services of a skip-stop is similar to that of a local-express. Passengers looking to get off at an "A" stop will not board a "B" train. If, on average, the "A" stops together have roughly as many customers as the "B" stops, then the "A" and "B" trains will each carry half the demand. Without skip stop, people will cram into the first train that shows up - so if you're at the sixth stop of a line waiting to go to work, you have to deal with five stations' worth of people on your train. If you're boarding an "A" skip-stop, you're only going to have 2 or 3 stations of people on your train - so you're more likely to get a seat.
It's a variation of the F and V theme. The V train helps redistribute load by supplying an efficient ride out of Manhattan to west of Jackson Heights bound commuters. This leaves more room on the F train for the longer distance commuters headed for Jackson Heights, Forest Hills and beyond. (we're assuming riders can be rational about this. I also assume that east-ofJackson Heights local customersmay still initially use the F ad then transfer).
The redistribution function is quite distinct from the travel time function.
I need to clarify something. If frequency is cut t run a skip stop, then you are correct. I am assuming though, that the skip stop frequency is greater than the mid-day non-rush frequency.
If it is not, then we're back to the speed advantage, but only if you use the schedule effectively (ie if leaving your office at 5 pm is not helpful to you, leave at 4:57 and cut 3 minutes off your coffee break).
I think we both agree the J/Z skip stop is more effective than the 1/9 skip stop. But if the 1/9 skip stop is utterly worthless, then people should be asking the TA to cancel it - and they don't (not enough do).
You're not thinking it through fully. Let's say -- for simplicity -- that 10 people arrive on the SB platform of each station per minute. Let's also say -- again, for simplicity -- that our hypothetical line starts with an all-stop station, followed by six skip-stop stations (alternating between A and B), followed by an all-stop station. Service runs every five minutes. Also assume that everybody is going to the second all-stop station.
If each train makes all stops, then each train will pick up 50 passengers at each of seven stations before reaching its destination, for a total load of 350.
If trains alternate between A and B, then each train will pick up 50 passengers at the first station and 100 passengers at each of three skip-stop stations it serves before reaching its destination, for a total load of 350.
The only differences are that the trip is accelerated and that average waiting time at skip-stop stations is doubled. Skip-stop can't reduce overall load (unless it makes travel by subway difficult enough to chase people to other modes of transport). If some trains are emptier with skip-stop, then other trains are more crowded.
Your analysis assumes that a fixed number of passengers boards at each stop, whether headways are five minutes or ten minutes. That's obviously not the case.
There is no connection to the F/V.
"Your analysis assumes that a fixed number of passengers boards at each stop, whether headways are five minutes or ten minutes. That's obviously not the case. "
Actually, that can be the case. The assumption is quite reasonable once you know, over time, the average number of people who show up at each station during rush hour, and when during the rush hour they show up.
So the skip/stop can be scheduled to exploit this distribution of demand.
I assume a scenario something like this:
During the day, train service is every 10 minutes, with no skip-stop (every station is served).
At rush hour, train service is every 5 minutes (or even more frequent, if you have enough train cars and crews). But now you switch to the A/B skip stop pattern. If you do not increase train frequency overall, you will increase the effective headway at a skip/stop station to 20 minutes, obviously defeating yourself.
So rail service at an A or B station is no less frequent than during the day, but skip/stop is in effect.
Even better would be quadrupling train service. Ideally, headways would be 10 minutes during the day (let's assume for this post that is reasonable), and during rush hour it would be 5 minutes, but now it's a skip-stop train. Trains are passing a given signal every 2.5 minutes to do this.
Running the same frequency of trains with skip/stop as you do during the day reduces
Now, with no skip/stop five minute headways at each station, you'll catch an earlier train, but the train will be packed with everybody from every previous station.
With a skip/stop, at rush hour the train may be quite full alwso, but later into the rush hour
Oh, I see what you're confused about. You think that, at rush hour, a bunch of 9 trains descend from heaven, and we're arguing that they stay up there.
That's not what we're arguing. Fix the number of trains and ask whether those trains should run all-stop or skip-stop. That's what we're discussing -- not whether service should be cut in half.
In fact, the combined 1/9 sees only a slight rush hour service increase. Most 9's are simply relabeled 1's.
Aha!
MTA has to increase train frequency relative to daytime to make rush hour skip stop work better.
But if you have a schedule, you can still leave your office three minutes earlier to catch the skip stop you want.
But frequency can't be simply increased since the north terminal is maxxed out. (Besides, total service in the skip-stop area is more than adequate.)
The skip-stop question is this: Given a fixed headway, does it make more sense to have all trains make all stops or to have trains skip alternate stops? On the 1/9, the answer is the former.
The rush hour 1/9 doesn't operate on anything remotely resembling a schedule. The schedule doesn't call for there to be a 10-minute gap followed by train bypassing stations, but that's what happens almost every day.
And, again, many people don't have the option of leaving work three minutes early -- that is, if they want to return to work the following morning.
Depending on ridership and service patterns, express service can have a similar effect.
I'm trying to get a response from you about the photo thing.
Didn't a few 2 trains run to New Lots before during rush hours(before 9/11), so that would be technically correct.
Best part of it is that full express service on the 7th Ave. line resumes. Wait for a few years when ground zero's hole gets filled up and a new WTC gets put in place.
If the Ground Zero of NYC, note that there is a Ground Zero at Nairobi, Kenya too; since the US Embassy bombings by Al Qaida in August, 1998; will be rebuilt, will they have a new IRT Cortlandt St. station by then?
Sure enough...MTH will be offering:
1) Two O-gauge versions of the R-14; one is two-tone grey, the other in "anti-grafitti" (sic) white.
2) A yellow R-17 "rider" car
That R-17 looks more like a work motor and less like a Rider Car. If they want to do it right they need to cover the windows!
Otherwise, I'd change the number to 36895. Heh. It still exists....
-Stef
I gotta admit that the R-12/14 models look rather interesting.
More on the R-17 -
Look at the car to the side of the R-10. Is this what they based their model on? Look ma! There's no black roof! The stripes extend down the side doors! I'm being nitpicky.
-Stef
Anyone know where the Steeplecab tour (MoD 9/22) will end. Makes it easier to park the car near the end, rather then the beginning.
That information was not given when the flyer was published. You may want to consider just taking public transport.
Makes sense eh? Riding public transport to ride public transport.
Source: alt.nyc.transit NEWSGROUP
According to General Order 1955, all 1 and 9 service
to South Ferry Terminal will resume on Saturday, September 14
with the 2150 hours #1 from 242nd Street, scheduled to arrive
at Chambers Street at 2243 hours.
Interesting. Can't wait see those 2's back on the express track monday.
The Cars that were used on the 9 Line, during the time it was gone, where were the extra cars placed at?
-AcelaExpress2005
The cars used on line 9 previous to 9/11/01 were part of the same pool of cars used for line 1. All those cars stayed there, just had to make the longer trip to New Lots Ave. The extra cars needed came from the #3 pool. Of course, a few R62A's previously assigned to line 6 were transfered to post 9/11/01 line 1 as R142A's took their place. I would assume that as of midnight tonight, line 1/9 will have the same assigned fleet as pre 9/11/01 (if the number of cars required is the same) and line 3, since some of their pre 9/11/01 cars are now on line 7, will have a some cars previously assigned to line 6. Any left over R62A's can be transfered to line 7.
The 9 is not really a line. #9 trains are just re-numbered 1's during rush hour. I remember one of our Subtalkers who is a C/R once writing that upon arrive for his shift, he had to go through all the cars and change all 20 side signs because the train he was putting into service was being called a #9
each week Stations puts out a list of all G.O.s for the following week. I found three of interest:
G.O. 1934-02 remains in effect--Cortlandt IRT
G.O. 1767-02 and 1933-02:
Ar cancelled as of 12:01am on 9/15/02.
Now opinion based on past experience: Trains might run light until the time bewteen Chambers and back to Chambers. On one of those trains (based on my experience with the Dyre Line) will be a S/A and escort. A supervisor might or might not be with the two. At 12:01 the supervisor will probably instruct the S/A to open yup and using their RTO Radio possibly radio that the booths are open. A single group coudl do bothj stations on the IRT and a secodn group for the BMT.
All of this will be moot at 12:01AM when South Ferry and Rector IRT and Cortlandt BMT reopens.
Depends on what qualifies as "light." When the first train for SF pulled into Chambers Street at around 10:50 p.m. (yes, it was about 7 minutes late), all of the pax were told to get off. A bunch of the "usual suspects" then boarded the train for the ride to SF and back despite requests that only TA personnel remain on the train. Of course, there were so many off duty TA personnel on the train that no one actually checked IDs.
I wonder whether the backpack was left behind by a TA employee or one of the other railfans.
Which person were you? I was the person (15) with the light blue t-shirt.
I was the one wearing a Polo shirt with red, light blue, and dark blue horizontal stripes and wire-rimmed glasses who had been to the UTC meeting.
I was the guy in the Signal Control Modifications T-Shirt.
Bingo! I was up at Van Cortlandt in time to catch the 2150, but word from the dispatcher's office was that everything would be running light through SF until the 2308, which reached Chambers just after midnight.
You didn't actually decide to wait, didja??
Self rode the 2150 VCP (our T/O changed the rollsign
in the lead car to 'Chambers St.')..
..lol... that was me, David!...
The Party 'STARTED' when we hit Chambers St.
(see Clayton's post for further..)
lie,lie,LIE! the first train from 242-SF left 242 at 22:35 and should've arrived at SF by now.what in blue hell is this General Order? service is returning back to normal,how the hell is that a G.O.?Gimme a break and I dont mean a piece of that Kit Kat bar.
Calm your honorary man nuts. Then go check your sources.
I attest, Clayton, Mr. Littlefield, KMA,
myself, and a dozen others were aboard the
aforementioned 2150 VCP 1 train and we
took the loop at South Ferry.
I hate to break it to you, but if you wanted to ride on a light train through SF, you could have done that two weeks ago.
The first revenue train was the 2308, and I was on it.
Man so what! Does it really make a difference who rode what train? Point is we all rode A train that went through SF in a period of like 30 minutes. Before yesterday I believe they checked the cars.
My thoughts alike, Clayton!
I was simply verifying to Mr. VTrain that
the 2150 VCP did indeed go to SF and that
certain among us were infact aboard.
Cheers to those there.
Well the MTA soon on its Online Museum Shop will be sellings pieces of redbirds, number plates, poles, handgrips, side rollsigns, overhead rollsigns. I want the roll signs, it seems all of this will be very limited, so I am going while the gettings good. I heard this was going to be on sale very soon. I wish you could buy a whole car, screw parts lol, then we could all pitch in and buy one.
I would like a Traction Motor, and the Controller, :)
-AcelaExpress2005
I already asked if you could buy a whole car. You can't, cuz of environmental issues. I don't see why the getting is limited, since they have so many Redbirds. Maybe they are trying to get the price up.
AEM7
Well, look at the facts, there are hundreds of thousands of Railfans and only 3000 overhead roll signs, less since museums will snatch them too. So we have to be fast.
Less than that...a lot of material went in the garbage. When I was at the 207 shop last September, they were stripping down Redbirds for reef duty. None of the stuff was being saved. It was going right in the dumpsters.
That was mainly because the Transit Museum already had all it wanted.
I already have my IND bulkhead signs with mechanisms and am happy with them.
I too would like a side signbox and a few number plates. Please keep us posted when these items go up on the selling block. What is the website address - www.MTA.info? Thanks.
Overhead rollsign!!
This is a dream for any NYC Subway railfan!
Go to http://www.transitmuseumstore.com/ and on the sidemenu click on the colletibles, and join the e-mail list to find out to get an e-mail for when that section opens. When it open, redbird parts should become easy pickings.
Put me down for a R-29 truck complete. My desk could use a good paperweight !!
Bill "Newkirk"
How big is your desk!?
>>How big is your desk!?<<
Not very big. One of those put it together with a screwdriver jobs.
Bill "Newkirk"
A NYC subway car truck would make a good 16-ton weight.:)
At least it will keep the papers from flying off the desk.....
You can always get a whole Redbird at 1/50 scale....try TrainLand or TrainWorld....Ha! :)
Grand Central Giftshop has or had O scale R17 cars in MTA scheme. Would look good on a garden railway with an el structure.
I found several major changes:
first- We have a newe station name: Fulton-Broadway Nassau. They finally gave this one "complex' status.
Secondary anmes : East Tremont Av has been added to West Farms Squaer and Westchester S quare stations.
%3rd Street stations ahd had 53 st added such as 5 av/53 st. Smae for BMT 60 ST stations have had/59 st added i.e. Lexington Av/59 St.
Lexington ave ont eh 63 sty line has had /63 st added- i.ew. Lexington avv/63 st
Granc Central has had 42 st added. Delancey and Essex are nwo De;amcey St Essex St (Complex station). 4th av F and 9 st (4 av BMT) are now 4av-9st.
In the recent traditino of shoeing neighborhood names- this has been extended to Staten Island which now shows neighborhood names.
Court S quare G has added " Long Island City" and Metropolitan M has added "Middle Village".
The front cover also has new graphics and a new design.
TODD, MIKE: your copies will be mailed Monday.
I understand that one can "preview" a message before posting to correct any errors.
I detect biting sarcasm and facetiousness!
ALL of these supposed "major changes" exist on the January 2002 Map.
Here is a postcard view of East NY Jct.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/images/EastNYjct.jpg
I believe that the view looks west or southwest in the direction of the LIRR tracks. I believe that the crossing tracks are the Fulton Ave line at grade at the time this pictue was made (early 1900's) due to the presence of the LIRR Gibbs cars.
What church is that, which is the prominent structure in the area.
I'm thinking that may be the crossing between the Atlantic Branch and the Manhattan Beach (i.e., Bay Ridge) branch when it was at grade.
Your probably right.
I can not detect any overhead wires or poles.
I'd think intersection is roughly Atlantic and Van Sinderin. The BRT would be to the right out of the picture.
Chatham Square will be open tonight at 7:30 ET for the first time in quite a few weeks. It is open most Saturdays at that time. Information on how to access the chatroom will be posted at that time. We hope to see you there!
What does the MTA wants the R-21 Money Train used for the movie for?
Please speak English.
I thought it was just me that found the sentence structure a tad wanting.......
The original poster didn't realize that a preposition is a bad word to end a sentence with.
Another graduate of the YODA School of Remedial Reading he is. :)
Star Wars came out, spoke I did 2 days for.
Heh. You'd THINK after 5 movies, they would have sent Yoda to "SPEAK ENGLISH" academy. Or at LEAST, that all the OTHER Jedi knights would have at LEAST emulated the master. Oy ... :)
Could be worse. He could have spoken in anagrams.
I was looking for the Subtalk decoder ring
Which money train??? I was on the one in the CI yard ago...it was a FX make-up and remained property of the NYCTA to the best of my knowledge. CI Peter
The one used for the movie Money Train.
Thanks. That's the train on CIs museum tracks. They added 'port and starboard' turret housings which increased carbody width....wonder if it would 'whack' something in the tunnel. I did not know enough to find out what chassis was built upon. Someone once asked if it was in service collecting M O N E Y !!! It just sits. CI Peter
Oh, ok thanks for the info.
Damn it, Speak English, What the hell did you just say???
-AcelaExpress2005
Isn't it bad enough I get flak in the shop for 'In the Hole SPEAK ENGLISH' (you dummy cause you just dumped the trainset into my ear?)
So, I had to revue the posts three times...double entendre?
'What does the MTA want the R-21 money train used for the movie for?'
I love my job and you guys too...always in my prayers. CI Peter
Had this been JEOPARDY!
Booooooooooy....
Thanks for putting up the new R40 scans:
Awww yeah...
Ahhh, that must be the Alcoholics Anonymous train :)
If anyone has heard this from NYCT, please post any information you have.
okay,I understand you now. Some how I don't think they will be using that bullet any time soon. So just sit tight and wait, like the rest of us....
I doubt the MTA would change the 7 Diamond to the 11.
I would love them to do this, but reliable sources here on subtalk have said again and again that this will not happen because the #7 is a 3-track line. Apparently it is too much to change the roll signs after each run. Perhaps this will be more feasible when LED's fully replace rollsigns, but that probably won't happen with the R62As unfortunately. -Nick
It's done on the 6 though. The 6 Express continue to roll into Manhattan with express rollsigns. I think it'd cause less confusion but then it wouldn't be as flexible if a train needed to change routes.
"I think it'd cause less confusion but then it wouldn't be as flexible if a train needed to change routes."
Exactly. If the #11 was ever used, it would only be used in the peak direction like the diamond #7; meaning the signs would need to be changed both at Main St.-Flushing and Times Square every time. -Nick
Since line 6 is all R142A, there are no rollsigns.
I meant displays and when it used to run with R62As. They said Express even though they shared almost the same line. Then again, the 7 already uses the 7 Express bullet so it's good enough. But perhaps a few more platform C/R during the transition times to have some correct signage.
People aren't confused when they see the express signs for their train when they are going in the non-peak direction. The only problem is if a train that was going to be an 11 has to become a 7 or vice versa.
How about an 11 train whenever the 7 gets extended to Javits...
It would be foolish to think such a suggestion.
First of all, you have to realize the T/O's and C/R's have to move fast to get those trains moving. Why is this relevant? Since the 7 is a 3-track line and not a 4-track, express trains have to be switched to the local abnd vice versa. Since the 7 is rarely a quiet line, this practice is practically done every time. Constantly changing the signs from 7 to 11, 11 to 7, would be tiresome and and a waste of service.
Besides, do you really think they are competent at such things? This criticism is not directed at anyone in particular but the signage on the Redbirds are always incorrect, sometimes within cars connected with each other. Sloppy work, indeed.
It's also key to remember that if the MTA so chooses to use the 11 bullet, it would have to stray from the route itself. Like the 4, 5, and 6. They have those appropriate labels to distinguish their splitoffs from the main Manhattan artery.
A few weeks ago someone mentioned that only 2 B division car types, both before and after unification, have never been used on this line. Well, this leaves the R10 as the only car left where we have no visual evidence to show it ran there:
We have pictures or evidence of Multis on the Shuttle? C-types? R40 slants?
The C types and Multis did run there briefly. Larry posted some statistics from his ERA archives to confirm that. These weren't fan trips either.
So we're left with the R10 and R44/46. We can only prove the R10 ran there on a fantrip.
I'm sort of interested in this subject because I contend that more different types of equipment ran in passenger service on what is now the Franklin Shuttle than on any other NYC subway route (or non-NYC probably, for that matter).
I don't even know what line might be in second place.
It would be cool if we could prove that every kind of B Division (and predecessors) car ran on the shuttle.
Except, of course, for some steam stock from other BRT heritage lines, but even a lot of that ran, as trailers or electric conversions, in the electric era.
Certain equipment, like the Sea Beach 3200 series cars, never made it to general elevated use, I think.
I'm sort of interested in this subject because I contend that more different types of equipment ran in passenger service on what is now the Franklin Shuttle than on any other NYC subway route (or non-NYC probably, for that matter).
That's the same reason I got interested in this. The Franklin shuttle has the advantage of being old and, at times, part of an elevated and then a subway route, with track connections to both the eastern & southern divisions.
Love that sign !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, technically it IS an R40, but I'll bet you no Slant has ever poked its shovel nose up the Malbone Street tunnel!
wayne
I am sure if a slant poked its way up the sharpest curve in the NYC subway system (the Malbone/Empire Blvd. tunnel), I'd bet that massive damage would occur.
Aren't they all the same dimensions? All the B-Division cars at least.
That's far from the sharpest curve in the system. I've been through it -- on an R-68.
I think he's referring to the one on the unused track-side, the one where the wreck occurred. While that carve may be sharp indeed, it is not as sharp as the ones north of Cortlandt Street BMT.
Speaking of sharp curves, I was up at 149-Concourse (Mott Ave) yesterday, watching the R142 cars entering and leaving the station - first time I've ever seen them in action on the #5 (I haven't been up that way in a while). And later on I got my first ride on an R143. More on that in another post.
wayne
Are you joking or serious? I don't think dimension-wise the slants are any different than the R40M's or the R42's or even any of the other 60 foot cars.
They aren't. R40Ms are the same as R40 Slants, except for their Sundberg-Farrar bonnets.
wayne
During the G rush hour test when the R68 shuttle cars were used, R40 slants was left to protect shuttle service, it was parked on the local CI bound track at Prospect Park so it might of kinda of sort of poked its nose in the tunnel??? NO??
BTW, why didn't the R68s continue running on the G? I always liked having R68s on QB. Tired of em' 32s and esp. 46s.
Because all Queens Blvd. services (E/F/G/R/V) are assigned to Jamaica maintance facility. The only cars assigned there are R32 & R46.
Well...why not assign r68s?
Why change what works? The folks at Jamaica are very used to the two basic types of equipment they handle (R-32 and R-46). Why add a third?
Assigning the G to Coney Island Shop was briefly considered as part of the V service plan. For whatever reason, the idea was rejected.
David
Why should they? Just to make a certain SubTalker happy? If R68's (or any other model car) is assigned there, the car maintainers have to be trained on that model, and more importantly, a parts inventory has to be developed as well. Very inefficient for a yard that already has a roster of over 1000 cars of thankfully just 2 models.
Yep, I guess so, Lou!
thanks,
wayne
Well, the R-44/46 cars never ran on the Franklin. I believe R-10s did in fact run there briefly (or was it just a fan trip?).
Paul, throw me a bone here...
At least one of the green R10 farewell trips ran up there
>>Well, the R-44/46 cars never ran on the Franklin<<
The R-46's with the Bicentennial cars were there on an ERA fantrip in February 1976.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's ALL Dougie's fault ... if he wasn't so busy making sure EVERYBODY knew about his secret magic railroad, they wouldn't have run every damned car in the city on it. I'll bet it's even seen LIRR cars on acceptance testing. Some people have a BIG mouth, and that's why every car class has to pass the "Luciano test." :)
Una, Kev. You are 100% correct! LIRR equipment ran on the Franklin/Brighton back in the days when the Sheepshead Bay racetrack was still around (I know YOU remember those days, don't ya) :)
The BRT allowed thru service from Belmont Park racetrack for the horse race workers who would also be working the Sheepshead race track.
That's back in da days of the old Bedford Junction/Bedford Station connection (1910/11).
Thanks, Bill. Even I didn't know that...I should hang my head in shame...:(
I should have said "non-75' cars" in my original post.
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1. Get rid of 1/9 skip stop (it can stay on the J/Z since skip stop is a unique service and should be preserved) and make the 1 express during rush hours. Like the B and D Upper Manhattan and Bronx service, this peak directional express will better serve people than skip stop.
2. Have the 9 make all local stops from South Ferry to 242 Street Van Cortlandt Park
3. Make a #8 train and have it run local along the #4 line (138 Street is an option, since the #5 stops there as well)
4. Have the #4 run express from 125 Street to Burnside Avenue skipping all stops in between except 149 Street Grand Concourse during rush hours. Make the diamond 4 mean something. It's about time that the M track is used for something other than G.O.s
Alternate ideas
An alternative idea would be to run the #1 local and the #9 as the peak directional express (11 trains each way) from South Ferry to W 238 Street. Most trains will go to South Ferry (and become 1 trains), but some will go to NLTS. Yard to yard transport like the #5 from New Lots Avenue to E 238 Street. 242 Street people will just have to take the 1 instead just like 241 Street people have to take the 2 instead.
Also run the #8 peak directional express while the #4 remains local (keeping the 138 Street bypass of course)
I like it, but you are preaching to the choir with me about eliminating 1/9 skip stop. I think the idea of using the express track on the 4 is a good idea. They run express service on the 6 line (and the 5), why not on the 4? Actually, every subway line in the Bronx (excluding the 1) has peak direction express service except the #4. Does anyone have ridership figures for the 4 and 6 stations for the northern portion of their lines? It might be interesting, if the 4 stations above 149 street have similar ridership to the 6 stations north of 3rd Avenue, it would seem like putting an express on Jerome Avenue would make sense.
The skipping of 138 Street by the peak direction 4 has baffled me for some time now. What is the point? I can see that there are never many people on the platform there, but why the additional effort to institute the rush hour service pattern? Most times when I'm on the southbound 4 in the AM rush, the train stops just about at the 138 street station anyway. I guess it is to organize the 4's and 5's before they enter Manhattan, to ensure alternate 4 and 5 trains are lined up. I can't really see any other reason for it. We have discussed the time savings of express service and I believe we have pretty well concluded the value in express service is capacity on the line, not time savings. Time savings are mostly in the customers head (mine included), "I'll save x number of stations". But I don't think anyone sees any savings in bypassing ONE station (138 in this case).
If anyone has a more logical explaination for the existence of the diamond 4, I would appreicate hearing it.
Piggo
The 5 lines Dyre and White Plains Road don't use express tracks north of E 180 Street. The 5 used to run express from E 180 Street to Gun Hill Road while the 2 went local, but people complained about not having dual services.
The #6 is not express north of Parkchester to Pelham Bay Park.
The #2 could be express to Gun Hill Road
Then there are the #4 express tracks north of Burnside Avenue to Woodlawn
Granted, but there is some express service on the 5 and 6 lines, even if it is not full length. There is zero on the 4, I'm not counting skipping 138 Street. Any express we can get added to the 4 is a start.
Take the D train.
Ugh, the D doesn't do me much good. I live near the 238 stop on the 1 and work at 59 and Lex. I take the Bx9 across to the 4 to avoid the long local ride on the 1 and the crosstown bus trip in mid-town. It wouldn't make too much sense to take the Bx9 across the Bronx, only to get back on a train that will bring me back to the westside, so I can take the same cross town bus.
I was just suggesting that the number 4 line is the only bronx line that doesn't have any peak direction express. I believe your point is that the D runs along pretty much the same route as the 4. That's true in the Bronx, but it doesn't go to the same place in Manhattan. But your arguement may very well be the reason for no express service on the 4
The 5 lines on both Dyre and White Plains Road don't use express tracks north of E 180 Street. The 5 used to run express from E 180 Street to Gun Hill Road while the 2 went local, but people complained about not having dual services.
The #6 is not express north of Parkchester to Pelham Bay Park.
The #2 could be express to Gun Hill Road
Then there are the #4 express tracks north of Burnside Avenue to Woodlawn
They skip 138th to ease congestion at the switches for the jughandle at 149th.
"They skip 138th to ease congestion at the switches for the jughandle at 149th."
Now I see why the skip stop makes sense. The 4 isn't delayed because of 5 which have to negotiate all those curves. And in order to accomplish this, it has to move at a safer speed. Thank you for explaining.
N Bwy
Or you can just leave it the way it is as it's working out fine now.
"4. Have the #4 run express from 125 Street to Burnside Avenue skipping all stops in between except 149 Street Grand Concourse during rush hours. Make the diamond 4 mean something. It's about time that the M track is used for something other than G.O.s"
What about that major transfer at 161st Yankee stadium? How are all those people going to fit on that over crowded platform?
"1. Get rid of 1/9 skip stop (it can stay on the J/Z since skip stop is a unique service and should be preserved) and make the 1 express during rush hours. Like the B and D Upper Manhattan and Bronx service, this peak directional express will better serve people than skip stop.
2. Have the 9 make all local stops from South Ferry to 242 Street Van Cortlandt Park"
As much as I think that express track should be used, it might actually be more of a disservice then a system improvement. For instance, what are you going to do with all those people who uses the line at 137th, and 116th Street. Are you planing on running more 9's than 1's - because if you don't, there might be crowd control problems for the 9.
The only useful thing I see coming from the express track is people now have an alternative choice to the A line. But is the A EXPRESS so inadequate that a 1 "express" will provide some relief?
Thank you all for your response.
N Broadway Line
It should be remembered that the express track on the upper Broadway (IRT) Line is not continuous. Expresses would have to switch in and out, which is why the service is skip-stop and not a true express in the first place.
Not to mention that the skip stop hinders more people than it helps!
The D skips Yankee Stadium and it works out, just like they take the B, the riders will take the 8 instead.
When I charge the brakes of the GP38 in trainsim, I found something strange. I can charge the brakes until like 40psi, the release and proceed. The brakes keep on charging until 110 psi or so. Can this be done in real life? A quick charge? i heard of this before. Any further detail will be appreciated. On the lirr how does the engineer manage to take out the reverser key and switch ends without dumping?
The smaller end brake hoses for suppression and the independant could be interchanged by accident or on purpose, allowing for main reservior pressure to flow direct to brake cylinders when baling off. That would be a super EngineBrake (C 1986)
I've made a few recent posts about my upcoming AMTRAK trip to Harper's Ferry, WVa. I would like to thank all the Subtalkers who reponded with helpful advice, you made my first experience booking an AMTRAK trip on the internet easy and enjoyable (and somewhat less expensive thanks to the discount code). I set my trip up to allow for a one day stop in Washington DC. I'll arrive in Washington about 3:30 PM on Thursday October 3 and leave on the Capital Limited at 3:40 PM on Friday October 4. So I'll have just about a full day to explore our nations capital. I have not yet booked a hotel for the night yet, so if anyone knows of a reasonably priced hotel near a Metro station (I'm a Motel 6 kind of guy, as they say, all rooms look the same when your eyes are closed), that would also be greatly appreciated. But what I really could use would be an outline for a day of railfanning on the DC Metro; what lines are most interesting, where can I get a railfan window, fast strechs of track; the usually railfan stuff!
You can email me off line or respond to the post, all feedback is greatly appreciated!
Scenic line- The YELLOW line. As the train crosses the Potomac River, you get a eyeful of Washington's sights and some of the monuments. Also you will get the s--t scared out of you if you see a plane fly over your train as its crossing the river. The FEds should have stopped the practice, since it had two bad incidents, 9/11 and that crash in '82.
Fast line- The RED line. Several cool stretches of speed on the route. Check out the run between Dupont Circle, and Woodley Park-Zoo. Get off at Grovesnor, walk down to the corner of Grovesnor Rd and Rockville Pike, and you'll see the only spot where Metrorail looks like a real EL!
BY ALL MEANS DO NOT TAKE ANY PICTURES AT THE PENTAGON, INSIDE THE METRO STATION OR OUTSIDE AT THE BUS TERMINAL. YOU KNOW WHY.
The first car of the train has some semblance of a railfan window, but it only manifest itself through the full-width cab as the train runs outdoors. Just sit on the left side of the train. Note, that the 2000's thru 5000's series cars do not have a seat behind the cab, only the 1000's Rohr cars have that seat behind the cab.
They all have a seat behind the cab, it just really possible to sit and railfan at the same time. Then again, even on the Rohrs, I reccomend you stand at the window to have the best view.
My reccomendations are as follows:
The most scenic line is the Green Line. The most BORING line is the Yellow Line. That said, here is what I reccommend:
The Red Line to Shady Grove is just spectacular, but it is a long trip. The trip from Medical Center to Grosvenor-Strathmore is the best part of the system, although you are wasting your time to exit the system and walk the half mile or whatever to Rockville and Tuckerman to see the bottom of the bridge (it is not an el). I ride it all the time and the fun is riding it, not watching a train go by on top of it from Rockville Pike. The construction of the garage makes photos from outside the station near the bus bays a little tricky but once it opens, the shots will be even better! Also on the Red Line you can run around the Brentwood shops and see the second longest escalator in the western hemisphere at the Wheaton Station. To get to Wheaton, there is a long surface run from Union Station to Silver Spring which is fast.
The Green Line has the CAF cars (or those that are actually running). Lots of curves and fairly good speed, the scenic part of the line is from Southern Avenue to Branch Avenue. A fun itinerary with that line is to take the Green Line to Branch Avenue and then take the N11 or N13 bus to King Street. Be sure to get a rail to bus transfer, you save 85 cents of the 2 dollar express bus fare.
At King Street, you can take the Blue line on a fast run to Franconia-Springfield and back, while not too interesting, you do go by the Alexandria shops, or a short ride to Huntington to see some nice architecture. The Blue Line is fast between Braddock Road and Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport and Pentagon and Rosslyn. The Yellow line really isn't too special except for the Potomac River crossing, the run from the airport to Braddock, and the Huntington Station itself. The eastern end of the Blue line is pretty boring.
The Orange Line runs in the I-66 median from Vienna to west of Ballston and gets up to very high speed there. Also fast running from Stadium-Armory to New Carrollton, but the section through downtown isn't very fun.
There are plenty of Motel 6s along New York Avenue in NE although that is not the nicest part of town. There isn't rail service there and you would have to take a bus to the station.
Have fun while you are here!
you forgot about realizing just how deep underground you find yourself at Forest Glen... somewhere close to 21 stories deep, I've heard. There's also the "bowl" at Dupont Circle, which is pretty deep itself, and the bi-level Fort Totten, with the half-sunken Green Line platform.
The split-level island platforms at Pentagon and Rosslyn are quite interesting to see... the ceiling is breathtakingly hih when viewed from the lower level platforms (used for trains headed away from DC at both stations). Th stations were constructed like this to avoid having the lines cross at grade, since both stations are junctions.
Prince George's Plaza has a nice look to it in the spring. Grosvenor-Strathmore isn't too bad either.
Mt Vernon Sq-UDC, Foggy Bottom-GWU, Wheaton, and Forest Glen are probably the four darkest stations in the system. Medical Center is not that bright either.
You can also see the yard at New Carrollton from the station platform, and the shops in Alexandria can be easily viewed from a Blue line train running between Van Dorn Street and King Street.
The southeasternmost part of the Green Line isn't too interesting, but it's something to ride at least.
I'll have to pop down to DC myself pretty soon to hit Shady Grove. I've been on railfan trips to DC about six times, but only went to Shady Grove ONCE. I forgot if I could see the yard from there.
Also, I forget... how many tunnels are on the Green Line, aside from the main stretch underground from Georgia Ave-Petworth to Congress Heights?
The bowl at DuPont is out of fare control and isn't too special.
Forest Glen is 196 feet below the street. No escalator due to the depth.
If Wheaton and Medical Center are dark, then I guess Friendship Heights must not have any lighting whatsoever. I would take Wheaton and Medical Center off that list and put on Eastern Market, Fort Totten (lower level) and Friendship Heights.
Forgot about Freindship Heights and Fort Totten. My mistake.
Eastern Market is dark? I never paid that station much attention. Again, I only get to visit DC. However, if things go my way, I'll be moving down there in a few years.
Forgive my saying so, but the run between Stadium-Armory and Rosslyn isn't as interesting as most of the rest of the system (exception: the only existing solo run of the Yellow line in VA.) Besides, I have to be awake at 7:00 AM to get to my train on time to get to DC. I usually go on Fridays, and I work Thursday nights until 2:00 AM. So I'm usally asleep in the tunnels. I try to sleep on AMTRAK, but nobody will let me. Not that it's forbidden, but someone always wants to talk, and it's not me to be rude.
Eastern Market's not too dark, they painted the coffers there; BENNING ROAD is pretty dark. Foggy Bottom (aptly named)-GWU isn't much more than a cavern.
Green Line has the most variations in station architecture, both underground, elevated, surface and open-cut.
wayne
By any chance, are the side windows of the Rohr/Breda/CAF cars tinted?
If so, then I shall attempt to redeem myself before you all kill me. When I was last there, the darkest stations were: Medical Center, Friendship Heights, Fort Totten (Green line underground half), Forest Glen, Wheaton, Mt Vernon Sq-7th Street, Foggy Bottom-GWU, Federal Center SW, and the lower level of L'Enfant Plaza (I think a few lights were out is all). These were viewed through the front window, not to mention I exited the Blue train I was on at L. Plaza.
Every time I visit, however, the following stations are pretty dark: Fort Totten, Friendship Heights, Foggy Bottom, Forest Glen, and Mt Vernon Sq.
I didn't mean Medical Center was really dark, just not as bright as some other underground stops (McPherson Sq and Metro Center come to mind). It's not NEARLY as dark as Foggy Bottom
Generally speaking though, all of the underground stops are kinda dark, at least compared to what I'm used to seeing up here in Philly. If you've ever been here, you might know what I mean. I think 34th Street on the Market-Frankford Line, and Girard on the Broad Street Line are close in lighting to most WMATA subway stations. Dark, but not too dark.
Glenmont would probably look brighter if not for the orange lights. However, I like those.
Yep, Glenmont is the only one I know of that has sodium lighting as opposed to flourescent/mercury. I don't think any of the car windows are tinted.
One more very dark station is PENTAGON. Some of the stations appear to have had their concrete ceiling surfaces painted - those come to mind are Archives/Navy Meml, Federal Center SW, Capitol South, Eastern Market.
wayne
Farragut North was painted to cover up evidence of leaks and as a result, got brighter. I know some other stations got similar treatment but can't recall them.
Thanks for all the information, I check the website for Motel 6, they only gave my one location in DC. I'm guessing you ment there are plenty of motels LIKE Motel 6 in the area? Am I correct?
Could you tell me what other Motel 6 type of motels are in the area? I figure I'll stick to chains, as much as I want to save cash, I don't want to be killed. I know some private low end motels/hotels can be inhabited by some very unpleasent individuals, chains tend to be safe and at least clean.
The Motel 6 listed on the web site is as follows:
*********************************************************
WASHINGTON, D.C.
I-95 to I-495 at Exit #31
6711 Georgia Avenue
Washington, DC 20012
PHONE: (202) 722-1600
FAX: (202) 723-3979
Driving Directions:
Located 5 miles north of downtown Washington, D.C.
I-95 south: I-95 to I-495 west. Take exit #31-B/Georgia Ave. and make a left at the ramp. This location is 3 miles on the left side of the road.
I-95 north: I-95 to I-495/Tyson's Corner. Take exit #31-B/Georgia Ave. This location is 3 miles on the left side of the road.
I-270: I-270 to I-495 East/Silver Spring. Take exit #31-B. This location is 3 miles on the left side of the road.
**************************************************
It looks to be about half way between downtown and Silver Spring. You said I would need to take a bus from the Metro, could you give me a rough idea of how long the bus ride is, and what bus to I need to take and from what Metro stop?
Thanks again for all the tips, I'm sure the info I get here is 100 x better than what could be found at any tourist based website.
Piggo/Bill
You're a lot closer to Silver Spring than you think. You can take the #70 Bus either north to Sliver Spring Station on the Red Line, or south (going towards Archives, L'Enfant Plaza and Half & O Streets SW) to Georgia Ave-Petworth Station on the Green Line. It should be only a five minute ride either way. WMATAGMOAGH should know for sure; I think he lives in the DC area. I'd recommend going north to Sliver Spring, since half the Red trains turn back there, so if you see one pulling out, there may be one on the pocket track waiting to arrive, or one coming in from Forest Glen.
I know that Motel 6. You are not too far from the Silver Spring stop and you could probably walk it depending on the time of day. I don't reccommend this late at night since you aren't in the nicest area (although there is much worse). 70 schedules are on wmata.com and you should check them out. The ride to Silver Spring should be much shorter than to Georgia Avenue. Also, there are twice as many trains at Silver Spring than at Georgia Avenue, not to mention half the trains start there so you can easily get a seat on those trains.
There are a couple of nice, reasonably priced hotels and motels in Virginia, on Richmond Highway, south of the Huntington Station on the Yellow Line. Also there are several nice hotels in the Franconia-Springfield area at the end of the Blue Line. Mostly they are Holiday Inns, Days Inn, and Best Western. check out their web sites for more information.
There is a Days Inn & Travelodge within walking distance of Silver Spring station.....although, I was far from impressed with their service, than, I ended up staying at the Holiday Inn on Georgia Avenue (also within walking distance of the Silver Spring station) Service was exceptional!!! I WILL stay there again!!!
If you call, ask for Mark Brown, General Manager (helluva guy)
I just replied to his message also... I totally forgot the Charles R. Fenwick Bridge over the Potomac River on the Yellow Line! He will appreciate that bit of scenery, that's for sure. And I haven't gone NEAR that bridge since I last saw a plane fly over it. It was after 9/11, so it's nothing to do with that. For similar reasons, I rarely stop at National Airport to look around.
I took pics in the Metro and was able to take pics at the Pentagon back in April----not a problem only there are certain places where pics are and are not allowed at the Pentagon.
I don't live in DC, but I railfan there enough... I'll help.
Most interesting line: Orange line between Vienna-Fairfax/GMU and Ballston-MU. You're in the middle of I-66.
Fastest running stretch: You get good speed between Stadium-Armory and Capitol Heights on a Blue train. Orange line in Vriginia, Blue between Rosslyn and Pentagon, and the Red Line between Glenmont and Silver Spring are the fast spots whenever I'm there.
Closest Hotels: Try Crystal City area.
Scenery to see: National Airport Station, you're dead smack in the middle of the place. Takeoffs/landings are interesting when you're on a train platform.
Trip idea: If arriving by air at National Airport, hop a Yellow train to DC. You can change to an Orange or Green train at L'Enfant Plaza, or to a Red train at Gallery Pl-Chinatown. If arriving by AMTRAK, you're at Union Station on the Red Line. Just head to either Fort Totten for a Greenbelt Green train, or to Metro Center or Gallery Pl-Chinatown for a Blue, Orange (M. Center) or Yellow or Branch Avenue Green (Gallery Place) train. You can either go end-to-end on each line, or travel in a web, such as taking an Orange train to Rosslyn, then Blue to Pentagon or King Street, then Yellow to Huntington, then back to L'Enfant Plaza or Mt. Vernon Sq-UDC (I refuse to use the new suffix), then Green to Greenbelt, then back to Fort Totten, then Red to Glenmont, then back to Metro Center, then Blue to Addison Road, then back to Stadium-Armory. From there, you can take Orange to Nwe Carrollton, then back to Metro Center to take Red to Shady Grove. Then come back to Gallery Place, and take Green to Branch Avenue, then back to L'nfant Plaza. From there, Yellow to King Street, then Blue to Franconia-Springfield and back to DC. Typically, I go end-to-end, unless I have to actually do something at any location, such as buying new maps at metro Center if it's a weekday trip, or hitting the shops at Crystal City or Pentagon City Mall to grab a bite to eat, or whatever.
As far as railfan seats: You cn do what WMATAGMAOGH suggested and stand in the front looking outward, or sit in the last car looking out during peak hours for the best views. If you get a Rohr car, you can sit down and look comfortably. Unlike the front/rear seats on a CAF or Breda car, the Rohr seats face sideways across the train, rather than backwards from the window.
Sitting with your head turned sideways is not comfortable for a long period of time. Lean over the seat on a Breda or CAF and no one will sit there. The back seat view isn't too exiciting anyway, I always ride in the front.
Why do you refuse to use the new suffix? UDC doesn't even have a campus there anymore. Just call it Mount Vernon Square until the convention center opens.
The new suffix is WAY too long. Unlike the people at SEPTA do, WMATA doesn't do subcript suffixes. That is, the station name suffix is in a smaller print, and typed under the main name. some of them, I can uderstand, such as Stadium-Armory. However, I'll be using the new suffix once it opens, until then, I guess your idea will work. I liked the UDC suffix, it rolled off the tongue in a way.
And I know about how uncomfortable it is sitting with your head turned sideways. If I decide to take the railfan's seat on a Broad Street Line train up here, I have to do just that. Still, I'd rather sit sideways than try to get comy in a Breda/CAF front seat. But, I'm not sitting sideways for an entire Red trip ever again. My neck was stiff for three days after that...
Lean over the seat? I'll try that.
One section that's rather scenic yet not yet mentioned is the Yellow Line below National Airport, crossing the Beltway during rush hour and seeing that you're not in that traffic heading toward the Wilson Bridge is rather soothing, plus, the architectural uniqueness of the Huntington Station is something to see.....the way it was built into the hillside is an architectural marvel.
Perhaps a railfanning day of subtalkers should be scheduled...Count me in.
If you have one projected for next year in DC, or if you ever come up to Philly, I'm in. Why next year? Between family, friends, and the holidays coming, it's unlikely I'll have much leftover funding to bounce down to DC before the year is out.
The official MTA NYC Subway Map is now online.
I'm drinking coffee, and will be leaving for Chambers Street in an hour or so.
The E terminal is still called the World Trade Center I see.
My guess is they're basing it on the rollsigns on the R32 E Trains, which says World Trade Center.
My guess is they're basing it on the rollsigns on the R32 E Trains, which says World Trade Center.
Not to mention all the track destination signs in the stations along the 8th Ave line and Queens Line. It would cause a fortune to change all those signs and all the rollsigns. It is alot easier to change an intermediate station name than a terminal station name. And why is it necessary to change the name? Besides, won't whatever they build there in the future be called the "World Trade Center", even if it's just the memorial part of the site? I think station will remain "World Trade Center".
Anyone else notice how many of the station names on the online map don't match the names on the printed map? Like, 75 St. on the J still says Elderts Lane on the online map. Broadway-Nassau and Fulton are shown as 2 stations, rather than as Braodway-Nassau Fulton (complex). Lexington on the F is missing the 63 St designator. There are many other examples.
I predicted it would take until Saturday night. They had Sept 8 info on the map about 10PM even though it said Sept 15. I am now going to check to see if they changed official line information on the webpages for each line.
The 1 line info on the line's page has been changed to show a South Ferry terminus, but the line map on that page still shows the line going into Brooklyn!
And under the 2 bullet, it still says 7th Avenue Local!
I guess that makes up for the error on the print map that has the 2 running express late nights.
They have current line stop info - but the route map graphic of the #1 still shows it going to Brooklyn.
Would you really think they'd prepare every single detail the day it all came back to regular service? Remember, we're talking about the MTA. Or we can assume it wasn't top priority.
I was just poking a little fun at them. It'll get straightened out eventually..
Sorry, I tend to get overly serious at issues like that. You have been given a warning by the National CPCTC system. *BEEEP*
SOme notes:
-I see Neptune Ave, Ocean Parkway, and West 8th are completely closed. I assume for the duration of the Stillwell Ave Project?
-Cortlandt N and R will be only downtown for now.
-And of course the other Cortlandt is out of commission (and not even there for now).
-The G is not dotted on Queens Blvd.
Cortlandt N/R is fully open both directions. The "downtown only" reference on the Map refers to the handicapped accessibility.
Thanks, that makes more sense. I was a bit surprised at that.
It's just great to see the 1/9 going down to South Ferry again.
And strange to see the W as the only service to CI.
A welcome design. Besides the necessary service changes, I like the aesthetic edits they made. Like the blue header for the bus/subway/rail transfer box, and the more natural look the map was given.
How on earth did Kalikow get his name on the cover?? What about Reuter? Who is higher up in power?
Reuter is the New York City Transit President. Kalikow is chair of the parent agency, MTA, and reports to the Governor.
So Kalikow is more like one of Pataki's henchmen?
You could say that. There's both good and bad about that.
Like what? I hope this dreads on hudreds of times. Those kinds of threads will often go OT. I won't let that happen, though.
Please ignore the previous post.
I meant I hope this doesn't dread for hundreds of times. I wish this MB had an edit feature.
Well, it has a Preview Post feature.
Because MTA is a state agency whose head reports to the Governor, it can set some priorities and get them done more effectively when the Governor signs off on them. For example, East Side Access is under construction and moving along as well as can be expected, given this is New York. The South Ferry line was reconstructed quickly in part because the Governor ordered it done and used his executive powers to exempt MTA from certain rules and procedures. However, a project the Governor does not want will have difficulty getting anywhere.
SEPTA, by contrast, is an independent authority with a General Manager and a Board whose members come from many different counties - and they can and do squabble among themselves. I'm not saying that, had terrorists blown up part of the Broad Street Line, that SEPTA would not have rebuilt it. But the speed and timing of the project would have been beholden to a lot more political wrangling first.
Hold it, the East Side Access...does that have to do with the SAS?
East Side Access is the LIRR tunnel connecting the Main Line and PW branches by way of 41 Avenue in Queens and 63rd Street and Park Avenue in Manhattanto a new terminal at Grand Central Station.
The Second Avenue Subway should begin construction in 2004. If Governor Pataki had actively opposed it, MTA would not build it. However, the Governor signed off on that project after a lengthy process, including Sheldon Silver's bottling up the state budget during negotiations. Note that the Governor vigorously supported ESA, so it is getting done sooner.
Good!
Good to see the 1/9 going back to South Ferry again. Now the B is going to 205/Norwood instead of just Bedford Park Blvd? Look at the map!
http://members.aol.com/philiphom/lm78.jpg
Sorry, it is a bit too big, and I haven't gotten around to learn how to include the jpg file in this type of boards.
Comments?
http://members.aol.com/philiphom/lm78.jpg
Wow ... no offense to YOU in any way, but that is a HORRIBLE map. Aside from all the line letters sprayed all over the place, with everything in red, I'd pity an out of towner trying to figure out where the trains are with everything everywhere the same color. Yipe.
It would be irrelevant since the different letters/numbers are still there. Luckily, I can identify such differences, though I'm assuming the majority of New Yorker's cannot. j/k, of course. ;-)
Oh geez. I thought the you were talking about the bullets. Should have looked at the map next time.
PS - It looks better than the current map I think.
What map is this ? Can't be anything NYCT had printed. The trunk lines are all red.
Bill "Newkirk"
The map was a prototype. A copy of the proof is in my collection. All the lines were in red which may explain why it was never used.
Yes it was a MTA map.
http://members.aol.com/philiphom/78testmap.jpg
Another Scan of this map. Out of focus, but shows complete map.
http://members.aol.com/philiphom/78testmap.jpg
Except for the bullets and the lines all being in red, it sort of looks like the 1979 map, you know with letters and numbers under the station names and the lines having curves instead of angles. I'm thinking the TA based the 1979 map off this one, but wth the current color system.
I want to get something going here. I want to know which stations in your systems have the highest/lowest levels of usage. All cities are welcome, be it Atlanta, DC, NYC, Chicago, Philly (which I'm doing anyway), LA, the state of New Jersey, Pittsburgh, or wherever you are. Post if you know, if you want to. I'm starting off Philadelphia with the Market-Frankford Line to give an example
Highest Ridership: 69th Street Terminal, 52nd Street, 40th Street, 30th Street, 15th Street, 13th Street, 11th Street/Pennsylvania Convention Center, 8th Street, Allegheny, Erie-Torresdale, Margaret-Orthodox (Arrott Terminal), Bridge-Pratt/Frankford Terminal
Lowest Ridership: Millbourne, Berks, Huntingdon, Tioga, Church
Blossoming Ridership (The station has mixed levels depending on the time of day/day itself): 63rd Street, 60th Street, 46th Street, 34th Street, 5th Street, 2nd Street (both have greater ridership during summer months), Spring Garden, Girard, York-Dauphin, Somerset
That should get things started.
while somewhat dated, these figures from BART are the latest available AFAIK. They are likely still representative despite the well vallyhooed "dot-bomb" meltdown and subseqent ten per cent dip from ridership peaks recorded after this datapoint
SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA RAPID TRANSIT DISTRICT 2-5
Fiscal Year 2001 Short Range Transit Plan - Adopted
August 24, 2000
Montgomery 38,670
Embarcadero 34,770
Powell 22,380
Civic Center 16,150
12th - Oakland 12,590
Balboa Park 11,920
24th - SF 11,880
Berkeley 10,500
16th - SF 9,060
El Cerrito del Norte 8,660
19th - Oakland 8,070
Daly City 7,640
Glen Park 7,560
Fruitvale 7,460
Colma 7,040
Pleasant Hill 6,990
MacArthur 6,970
Fremont 6,430
Concord 6,400
Walnut Creek 6,320
Coliseum 6,070
Dublin/Pleasanton 6,070
San Leandro 5,150
Bay Fair 5,100
Rockridge 4,870
Hayward 4,840
West Oakland 4,700
Pittsburg/Bay Point 4,690
Lake Merritt 4,410
El Cerrito Plaza 4,400
Ashby 4,340
Union City 4,120
North Berkeley 3,740
Richmond 3,710
Lafayette 3,210
South Hayward 3,050
Orinda 2,810
Castro Valley 2,180
North Concord 1,910
Total 326,830
April - June 2000
Figure 2-4 Exits by Station
Peak and Offpeak Trips
note that the highest eight are all "subway stations either in the CBD's or Balboa, 34th, 16th, all major bus transfer point for worker bees returning home.
The Berkeley station is also the closest to Univ of Cal (30k students plus huge staff) as well as CBD of town. El Cerrito Del Norte conversely is a distant suburban parking lot/structure and major bus transfer point with service to three outlying counties. The Coliseum Station serves a ballpark, and via a lame shuttle the Oakland Airport.
WMATA's busiest in terms of fares is Farragut North. The busiest in terms of people in the station per day is Metro Center.
All cities are welcome, be it Atlanta, DC, NYC, Chicago, Philly (which I'm doing anyway), LA, the state of New Jersey, Pittsburgh, or wherever you are.
Okay, Birmingham (UK) - the Midland Metro trolley line which its own managing director described as cr@p:
Highest ridership: Birmingham Snow Hill
Pretty close behind: West Bromwich Central, Wolverhampton St George's
Quite high: Bilston Central
Would be pretty high if they merged two very close stops: Wednesbury Great Western / Wednesbury Parkway
Moderate ridership: Jewellery Quarter, the Hawthorns, Blacklake, Bradley Lane, Loxdale
Moderate to low ridership: Handsworth Booth St, West Bromwich Town Hall, Dartmouth St, Guns Village (these two are too close), Priestfield
Low ridership: Soho Benson Rd, Winson Green (these two are too close), Kenrick Park, Trinity Way, The Crescent (too close to Bilston Central)
Practically no ridership whatsoever: St Paul's, The Royal (both are in derelict industrial areas, perfectly symptomatic of the ill thought-out nature of the entire line)
This is the only light rail system in the UK which makes an operating loss, its ridership is at a stagnantly low level, and every now and then service can't get beyond Priestfield (thus cutting of The Royal (which no-one uses) and Wolverhampton St George's (which is the third busiest stop)) because of a nasty grade crossing (MAJOR accident blackspot) which the jackassed routing National Express chose inserted because they didn't want to re-open Wolverhampton Low Level station (as the building is listed, so renovation would be expensive). To be fair to the NX idiots, they couldn't really expect to make a profit out of a line with vehicles which seat about 50 people staffed with a driver and two conductors.
What is really needed is an outright closure of seven stops (St Paul's, Kenrick Park, Trinity Way, West Bromwich Town Hall, Wednesbury Parkway, The Crescent, The Royal), the replacement of a further five stops by three new ones (Soho Benson Road and Winson Green with an interchange station below the Walsall Fast Line (which should be changed back into the second Walsall Local), Dartmouth St and Guns Village by a new Guns Village one in between, Wolverhampton St George's by Wolverhampton Low Level), the platforms to be lengthened and raised, the line reconnected at both ends to main line railways and run one Shrewsbury - Snow Hill - Leamington local and one Stafford - Snow Hill - Leamington local per hour and one Shrewsbury - Snow Hill - Marylebone fast per hour. Oops, that might actually work as a railway... we can't be doing that...
Why not run straight into Paddington.
Simon
Swindon UK
Heh! And to Birkenhead the other way... Don't believe I wasn't tempted to say that!
Here are the top ten and bottom ten stations (or station complexes) in NYC, by fares paid in 2000. Transfers are not included.
Times Square (48,878,726)
Grand Central (39,820,636)
Herald Square (33,715,831)
34/7 - Penn Station (26,533,438)
Union Square (23,851,302)
34/8 - Penn Station (22,503,336)
Lex/53-51 (20,689,511)
47-50 - Rockefeller Center (18,409,112)
Fulton/Broadway-Nassau (17,573,601)
Chambers-WTC-Park Place (17,176,166)
21st-Van Alst (255,531)
Bowery (250,125)
Atlantic-L (236,626)
E143-St. Mary's (230,725)
B36 (117,949)
B98 (172,991)
B44 (112,608)
Broad Channel (88,968)
B105 (67,523)
Aqueduct Racetrack (40,180) - only open during races
The busiest local-only station is 68th (9,762,139). The least busy station served by two different trunk lines is W8-Aquarium (766,409), temporarily closed right now.
Interesting numbers. I had long believed that Bowery was the least busy non-Rockaways station. Yet it does slightly better than Atlantic Avenue and E143.
With the growing gentrification around the Bowery, I think the station is due for greater usage.
Thank you all. So far anyways. this thing's not done yet. BTW, This isn't subway only. I thought when I included NJT, that would have sparked up a few railroad/commuter rail posts. METRA, LIRR, Metro-North, MARC, VRE, NJT, and of course, SEPTA (which I'm doing, but only one line at a time) are all welcome. PATH and PATCO also. And I'll revive this once the new light rail in south Jersey is operational.
WMATAGMAOGH: I didn't know Farragut North had that many commuters. And I usually railfan in DC on Fridays. Metro Center, I can understand, given the fact that I get trampled every time I get off there to buy new system maps to take home... I once got turned around down there and ended up on my way to Vienna. BTW, are you going to do any more stations for the post? Line by line, where are the people converging to get the train? I know the new part of the Green Line gets pretty busy, as do Silver Spring, L'Enfant Plaza, Grosvernor-Strathmore and National Airport (I noticed the line you put through the "Ronald Regan Washington" prefix - that's how it is with me and Mt Vernon Sq-7th Street (I'll just call it that for now))
For today... The Broad Street Line and Broad-Ridge Spur:
Highest Ridership: Oregon, Snyder Ave, Lombard-South, City Hall (so why delay the renovations?), Girard, 8th Street, Cecil B. Moore/Temple University, Erie, Hunting Park, Olney Terminal, Fern Rock Transportation Center (though not as high as it could be, it still ranks up there)
Lowest Ridership: Farimount, Chinatown, Fairmount on the Ridge, Logan
Fluctuating/Moderate Ridership: Tasker-Morris, Ellsworth-Federal, Walnut-Locust, Race-Vine, Spring Garden (both crowded during afterschool hours, and in the AM peak), Susquehanna-Dauphin, North Philadelphia (surprisingly high ridership at night), Allegheny, Wyoming
No, I didn't forget Pattison. It's hard to classify, since it gets the most riders during events at the stadium complex. Those can happen anytime, so just how do you class the ridership? Outside of that, it would go under moderate, but again, you never know when the next game or concert will be...
If we put them in usage order, City Hall, Olney, Cecil B. Moore/TU, Erie, 8th Street, Girard, Oregon, Fern Rock, Hunting Park, Lombard-South, and Snyder Ave. take the top. With all the connections, Fern Rock could easily place third, but most people take Regional Rail to get there. C.B. Moore has that "unpredictable" factor, thanks to the Liacouras Center Arena, and even without it, it still keeps high usage during Temple's vacations. Girard and 8th Street are tied, this also contributes to N. Philly's fluctuating ridership... people often change trains at those stops to reach the Ridge Spur.
And the flavor of the day - don't be shy, people, all are welcome to post. I am amazed nobody's done Chicago, ATL, or Baltimore yet. Where was I? Ah, yes, today's line... the notorious Route 100! Mind you, the commuter/light rail mix of the line allows for secenic quiet running at subway-like headways. Amazingly, it gets quite a few riders, despite some of the remote stations. Then again, the remote ones are the least patronized.
Highest Ridership: 69th Street Terminal, Wynnewood Road, Ardmore Junction, Bryn Mawr, Stadium, Villanova, Radnor, Gulph Mills, King Manor, Bridgeport, Norristown Transportation Center
Lowest Ridership: Parkview, West Overbrook, Beechwood-Brookline, County Line
Moderate/Fluctuating: Penfield (not by much, but it gets more riders than you'd expect), Ardmore Ave, Haverford, Rosemont, Garrett Hill, Matsonford, Hughes Park (may get more pending the extension of the 100 to King of Prussia, since that would be the junction point)
Wow, that was short. As a bonus, I'm doing Routes 101/102 today.
Combined lines highest: 69th Street Terminal, Lansdowne Ave, Drexel Hill, Hilltop Road, Beverly Hills, Bywood, Walnut St, Congress Ave, Fairfield Ave, Drexel Park, Irvington Road (that's in highest to lowest order)
Route 101, highest to lowest: Springfield Mall, Woodland Ave, Drexel Line, Providence Road/Bowling Green, Saxer Ave, Leamy Ave, Beatty Road, Aronimink, Drexelbrook, Scenic Road, Springfield Road, School Lane, Huey Ave, the Media cross-streets (Manchester Avenue to Orange Street), Pine Ridge, Anderson Ave, Thomson Ave, Paper Mill Road
Route 102, same order: Baltimore Pike, Sharon Hill, Collingdale, Clifton-Aldan, Springfield Road, Providence Road, North Street, Drexel Manor, Garrettford, Marshall Road, Oakview, Bartram Ave, Andrews Ave, Penn Street, Shisler Ave.
And, in case you didn't know, while both lines share the same Springfield Road, they don't share the same Providence Road. Route 101 is right along PA 252, while the 102 is on a smaller street, running from Yeadon to Springfield. Why this matters? because I've seen people mix them up, and end up in Aldan when they wanted Bowling Green.
I don't have official stats, but I'd have to guess that the busiest stations on Baltimore's Metro Subway are:
Charles Center (smack dab in the center of downtown)
Lexington Market (significant shopping and transfers)
Mondawmin (mall, numerous bus connections)
Reisterstown Plaza (ditto)
Owings Mills (ditto again, plus direct access from I-795)
The likely least busy stations would be:
Milford Mill and Old Court (both in the middle of residential areas, limited transfers)
West Cold Spring
Shot Tower-Market Place (which, however, is gaining popularity with Inner Harbor East workers)
Upton (low income shopping by day, deserted and dangerous at night)
In fact, State Center (Maryland state office complex and city's cultural center) and Old Court closed at 8 pm, until recently.
--Randy Brown
That's a lot more than I expected. I wasn't going to include the neighborhoods of stations/reasons for high/low ridership until later. I wonder how ridership is at Johns Hopkins Hospital Station. As well as along the Light Rail. (If you have any idea on the line's ridership - including the BWI-Penn Station service, please post it. It'd be much appreciated)
Ridership at Hopkins is prolly somewhere in the middle or perhaps slightly above - somewhat heavy during rush, more or less deserted off-peak. I've never seen a crowded train there. The hospital dominates the area, with subsidized housing to the north and south. However, the entire neighborhood is undergoing a significant overhaul, with a "biotech park" replacing most of the northward housing.
I've never paid much attention to ridership on Don Schaefer's boondoggle, also known as the light rail line. I can tell you with certainty that there's a lot of non-paying riders between downtown and Patapsco station. The light rail works on an "honor system": you're supposed to buy a ticket or have a pass before boarding, and an MTA security guard is supposed to go thru the train periodically and check for proper fare. But I can't remember the last time I ever saw a fare checker...if they put one on every other train, they'd catch dozens of fare-beaters daily, especially on the Southside segment!
The CLRL station with the lowest ridership is certainly Hamburg Street, but that's by default: it's open only during events at the currently-unnamed NFL stadium. I'd say that Penn Station is very lightly used, especially since trains from the north can't take the spur. I'd guess that the four major downtown stations - Camden Yards, Convention Center, University Center/Baltimore St., and Lexington Market - are the heaviest used. Cromwell/Glen Burnie, Lutherville, and Timonium are commuter stations and thus would see good ridership. Patapsco is a link to buses in northern Anne Arundel County and the extreme south end of the city - but it's also a destination for fare-beaters going to the nearby Cherry Hill community.
Several long stretches of the CLRL are single-track, the result of Schaefer's "do it now, even if it's half-assed" philosophy. Fortunately, a second track is now being laid in the section between Hamburg St. and Westport. Also, there's talk of a new station being built in the upscale Ruxton/Riderwood area. The NIMBYs there fiercely resisted the line, then bitched because they had to go "all the way to Lutherville" to use it. Figures...!
--Randy Brown
Don't mention NIMBYs to me. Montgomery County, PA has a few of them that have derailed possible plans to restore service on the R8 line to Newtown.
long one today... Ridership reasoning, and another line...
Market-Frankford High ridership reasoning:
69th Street Terminal: Nearby shopping district, plus the numerous bus and three rail connections. Most people getting off one bus are going to the el, with the exception being the 21.
52nd Street: Another shopping district. The 52 bus also carries a great deal of people from the south and north, except those living closer to the 10 trolley
40th Street: Connections from the 30 and 40, and the nearby campus of University of Pennsylvania and its dorms. Ridership skyrockets when the trolleys are on diversion.
34th Street: University of Pennslyvania and Drexel University commuters.
30th Street: Mostly, the free interchange to/from the Subway-Surface Lines, also connections from the bus routes above. Not many people jump to Amtrak from the el, and few connect to the Regional Rail Lines here.
15th Street: Penn center office complex, the Broad Street line and Subway-Surface Lines free interchange, plus the numerous bus connections (C, 2, 17, 27, 31, 32, 33, 38, 44, 48, 61 Express, SPREE (formerly 76), 212, 124, 125, to be exact) and the direct connection to Regional Rail at Suburban Station
13th Street: Loews hotel and the Marriott, 1234 Market Street has a big draw, especially during the winter holidays, and some people just get off here to walk somewhere. Routes 124/125, and Lord & Taylor Center City also attract many riders, and the Subway Surface free interchange.
11th Street: The Pennsylvania Convention Center, Jefferson Hospital, Hard Rock Café, Grehyound/Trailways/NJT Bus Terminal, and of course, Market East Station. The Gallery also attracts many riders. More people use 13th Street for the southbound Route 23, and few connect to the northbound route here.
8th Street: Jeweler's row, Wills Eye Hospital, and connections to the PATCO (and to a lesser extent, the Broad-Ridge Spur) are the big draw. There's also Market Place East, the Gallery Mall, and connections to the 47 and 61.
5th Street: The tourist trap. Most people using the station are headed to see the Liberty Bell, or Independence National Historical Park. Few people transfer to the 57 here, because it's on 4th St.
2nd Street: Penn's Landing, the eateries and shops of Olde City, and connections to the northbound Route 57 on 3rd Street.
Allegheny: Another shopping district, as well as the massive draw of riders from route 60.
Erie-Torresdale: Riders coming from the 56. Yes, there are that many. There's some slight residential development nearby as well.
Margaret-Orthodox: Transfers from riders coming through Arrott Terminal.
Bridge-Pratt/Frankford Terminal: Transferring riders from the numerous bus routes below. Some local riders as well.
Moderate Ridership Reasoning
63rd Street: Local residents use the station, and there are some riders jumping on from the 31.
60th Street: a small shopping district, plus riders fromt he south and north on the 46 bus route.
56th Street: Local riders, plus riders from Overbrook arriving on Route G.
46th Street: Slight University of Pennsylvania commuter base, mostly local riders (there are housing projects and townhomes nearby), and riders transferring from Routes 31 and 64.
Spring Garden: Riders tranferring from Routes 25 and 43, and a few for the nightclub scene.
Girard: Local ridership, plus a few transferring from the 15.
York-Dauphin: Local ridership, plus a few transferring from the 39
Somerset: Local ridership, plus a few transferring from the 54.
Low ridership reasoning
Millbourne: There's nothing there. Mot local riders use the 21 instead, or walk to the terminal.
Berks: Declining residenial are. Most people on Route 3 stay on it.
Huntingdon: more people use York-Dauphin or Somerset.
Tioga: Not really low ridership, but not that high either. Local residential area, and a few people coming off Route 89, but more of them use Allegheny.
Church: Local residents seem to be more drawn to Routes 3 and 5.
Note that all the low ridership stations are A/B train skip-stops.
Broad Street Line High ridership reasoning:
Pattison: Mostly when there's a game or event. Otherwise, most riders are jumping to the Naval Business Center service of Route 17.
Oregon: By day, transfers from the G, 7, and 23. By night, transfers to/from Route 68 to UPS.
Snyder Ave: Route 37, and a few local riders. Some volume from Route 79.
Lombard-South: South Street area, plus transfers to/from Route 40.
City Hall: Same reason as 15th Street on the Market-Frankford. Too bad they won't renovate it.
Girard: Interchange between Broad Street Line Local/Express/Ridge trains, and connections from the 15 bus/trolley. A few local riders.
Cecil B. Moore: Temple University commuter base, transfers from Route 3, and the occasional event at the Liacouras Center.
Erie: Local riders, and riders connecting from numerous bus routes above. Also, some interchange between Local/Express/Ridge trains.
Hunting Park: A few local riders, most ridership is drawn from Routes R and 1. Some commuters in the summer are headed to the pool in Hunting Park.
Olney: LaSalle University riders, a few local commuters, and transfers from the bus routes above.
Fern Rock: Local riders, and connections from Routes 28, 57, and 70. Not many from Route C, or from the four Regional Rail Lines.
8th Street: Same as 8th Street on the Market-Frankford.
Moderate ridership reasoning
Tasker-Morris: local riders, plus transfers from Route 29.
Ellsworth-Federal: Local riders, plus transfers from Route 64. A few use the station to get to nearby jobs.
Walnut-Locust: Academy of Music, Kimmel Center, and a few connecting to the PATCO, or SEPTA routes 9, 12, 21, and 42.
Race-Vine: Nearby businesses on Arch or Vine Streets, Hahnemann Hospital, and a few connecting to NJT bus routes or the Convention Center.
Spring Garden: Business/student commuter base (State Office Building and Community College of Philadelphia), transfers from Route 43.
Susquehanna-Dauphin: Local riders (most of which live in Temple's dormatories), transfers from Route 39.
North Philadelphia: Local riders, and those coming from Route 54.
Allegheny: Local riders, as well as a major draw of riders from Route 60. A few more connect to the C to 11th & Nedro here.
Wyoming: Local riders, and transfers from Route 75.
Low Ridership reasoning
Fairmount: Girard has more train service, and not many people would take the 61 so close to Center City and then just jump to wait for a subway.
Chinatown: Not really much nearby to draw many riders, as the station's outside of Chinatown proper.
Fairmount on the Ridge: Again, Girard. You don't need to go so deep for a Ridge train there, and you can get it from both sides.
Logan: I've no idea. There's enough around there to warrant higher ridership. Logan's not that low as it is, but it seems Wyoming gets more, and Olney gets a LOT more. Perhaps most of the riders are coming off of the J bus route, and the local residents take the C bus instead.
Update on Acela Service
Updated Service Announcement through Sunday September 29
Schedules through Sunday September 29 can be found by returning to the home page and filling in your origin, destination and date in the Fare Finder.
On weekdays for the period through Friday September 27, Acela Express departures include (partial schedule):
Southbound from Boston at 5:15 a.m., 6:15 a.m., 7:15 a.m., 8:15 a.m., 1:15 p.m., 3:15 p.m. 4:15 p.m. and 5:15 p.m.
Northbound from New York at 7:03 a.m., 8:03 a.m., 9:03 a.m., 10:03 a.m., 4:00 p.m. 5:00 p.m, 6:00 p.m., and 7:00 p.m.
Southbound from New York at 5:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m., 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m., 10:00 a.m., 11:00 a.m., 12:00 Noon, 2:00 p.m., 5:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., 8:00 p.m. and 9:00 p.m.
Northbound from Washington at 5:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m., 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., 1:00 p.m., 2:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., 5:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m. and 8:30 p.m.
On Saturdays for the period through September 28, Amtrak will operate a normal Saturday Acela Express schedule.
On Sundays for the period through September 29, Acela Express Departures include (partial schedule):
Southbound from Boston at 8:00 a.m., 11:00 a.m., 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., and 6:30 p.m.
Northbound from New York at 12:03 p.m., 2:03 p.m., 4:03 p.m., and 6:03 p.m.
Southbound from New York at 8:00 a.m., 10:00 a.m., 12:00 Noon, 2:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., and 8:00 p.m.
Northbound from Washington at 9:00 a.m., 11:00 a.m., 1:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m., and 8:00 p.m.
BTW how was yur trip?
Well I didn't go on the Trip, because they found those damn cracks in the Acela Trucks, so now I don't know when I'm going.
-AcelaExpress2005
did u get a refund, or decide to 'regional it'?
Yeah we got the refund, Hell no I wasn't going on no Acela Regional.
-AcelaExpress2005
did u get a refund, or decide to 'regional it'?
Amtrak had been clamping down on non-refundable and non-exchangable tickets to mean exactly that. Several times, I've used RAIL SALE tickets and upgraded to different dates at the full discounted fare (i.e. DOF3) instead of having to scrap the ticket and re-buy. Now they won't let me do that, I have to buy DOF3 tickets from scratch without being able to use my RAIL SALE fare against it.
So because of this I lost around $83 on Amtrak for a set of tickets that were booked two weeks ago, for travel in October.
I could have got my friend who is a South Station ticket agent to go in and fudge it, but I don't like to do that. It's kind of against the idea of revenue management.
But I am still pissed. Just because they are losing money on the Acela, now they are screwing the long-distance passengers over to generate the every last cent. I'm very pissed at the Acela.
AEM7
Do what I do...........
Take the bus (wait a minute, this post is for BusTalk).
Bus is not cheap in the Midwest.
I priced out a Greyhound trip to Columbus from Boston, it was more than the equivalent Amtrak full-fare. Granted, I didn't find out from Greyhound how much cheaper they are prepared to go if I book in advance, but I seriously doubt they could beat the rail sale fares. Capacity constraints are much more of an issue on the bus than on the train.
AEM7
And with Greyhound, you get on in Chicago, then your individual body pieces fall off one at a time in Los Angeles, finding each other, rejoining, checking for stragglers, and finally becoming one man again...
Has Amtrak actually said that they're getting picky about upgrades from Rail Sale fares because of Acela Express losses? Everything at Amtrak loses money, and since Amtrak NEC services have never had anything to do with Rail Sale (even if a NEC train is completely empty, it won't show up on Rail Sale) I doubt there's any kind of direct connection between them.
can anyone recommend what they feel to be the best online resource for historical subway photographs. thanks!
You're in it!!
I meant other than this one .....
I meant other than this one .....
I really need old photos of stations interiors, I havent found many here......
Where are you from I can suggest on the Boston area a few places to look. The Walker Group Salem, MA NETransit@Aol.Com Link at the links page, Seashore Trolley Museum Library not on line or The Massachussetts State Transportation Library. Good luck Stevie
I haden't ridden to Port Jefferson from Penn for 3 years at least, and when I visited friends on the Island recently I was very pleased to see that the Port Jefferson service ran on time, and was 100% accessible to the disabled - every station is ADA-compliant.
The Ronkonkoma Line is getting there, too. Within a couple of years, the whole LIRR system willbe wheelchair and luggage friendly. With AirTrain starting up, this makes getting to Kennedy (and other places)very easy indeed.
Port Jeff was the biggest improvement from 3 years ago, and I mean the station itself. The building, parking lots, walkways, and platforms with lighting improved. It is a shame that the other stations along the branch are not seeing that. St. James with its building rehab 3 years ago still should have a platform rehab with new rails and lighting to compliment its renovation like Port Jeff. Anyway, I live in Port Jeff, so I know this.
Some of the stations have aging concrete (you can see the discoloration). So they will need facelifts. Broadway on the Port Washington line is similar (and is getting a facelift soon).
All the stations that had high-level platforms added to allow the new bi-levels cars were made ADA compliant. I believe this meant all the PJ stations in diesel territory except, possibly, Stony Brook, but I think Stony Brook was already ADA compliant. ADA compliance is mandated when there is a significant rebuilding or an existing station.
On the down side, the LIRR used the necessity to build ADA compliant high-level platforms as an excuse to abandon a number of stations, which is a rather odd interpretation of the ADA mandate.
On the down side, the LIRR used the necessity to build ADA compliant high-level platforms as an excuse to abandon a number of stations, which is a rather odd interpretation of the ADA mandate.
None of the abandoned stations were on the Port Jefferson line, however.
It actually wasn't ADA that forced construction of the high level platforms in diesel territory. It was the introduction of the bilevel diesel coaches, which lack capacity for low-platform boarding.
On the down side, the LIRR used the necessity to build ADA compliant high-level platforms as an excuse to abandon a number of stations, which is a rather odd interpretation of the ADA mandate.
It actually wasn't ADA that forced construction of the high level platforms in diesel territory. It was the introduction of the bilevel diesel coaches, which lack capacity for low-platform boarding.
That's correct, but that wasn't my point. I guess my wording was a bit unclear,
The high-level platforms were considered a significant station upgrade, and that is what triggered the ADA compliance issue. Therefore, they not only needed to build simple high-level platforms, but install other features, as appropriate, to be ADA compliant.
They claimed the comvined expenses (high level plus ADA compliance) weren't worth the cost for stations that claimed had small ridership.
The problem was their counting technique for certain small stations, like Southampton College, that was taken in January between Fall and Spring semesters, that was particlarly nasty.
Of course, they could have done something pragmatic, like acquire half-a-dozen Comet/Shoreliner cars instead of as many bi-levels so that nothing east of Ronkonkoma need have been abandoned nor done for their meager ridership, and money would have been available for Southampton College. The remaining 3 or 4 Comet cars could have been used on an Oyster Bay consist when not needed on summer Fridays to Greenport.
One option would have been for Southampton College to put up the money for a new station; MTA could have agreed to have some trains stop there when school was in session. Outside of school sessions, trains would run express through there and the station would be closed (or used for something else...)
Of course, they could have done something pragmatic, like acquire half-a-dozen Comet/Shoreliner cars instead of as many bi-levels so that nothing east of Ronkonkoma need have been abandoned nor done for their meager ridership, and money would have been available for Southampton College.
Not that I enjoy defending the LIRR, but I can hardly quibble with their decision to close Holtsville station. During its last year of service, which is when I started taking the LIRR from Medford, Holtsville's "rush hour" ridership most days was one in the mornings and zero in the evenings. Seriously.
OTOH, if they had run more service to Riverhead and put some parking at stations like Holtsville that might have needed such a humongous batch of parking lots at Ronkonkoma.
I really don't understand why the LIRR won't expand service east of Ronkonkoma. One more trainset probably would be enough to provide usable service. It just doesn't make sense.
It really doe3sn't make sense! Especially with the sucess of the Riverhead Outlets which is right next to the RR line there. The only reason that no on euses the Yaphank, Medford and Riverhjead stations is because it is totally inconvenient to use! If they had any kind or useable service there it woukld be a lot more used. They should even add a station at the Outlet Center, as it would be much used. How can anyone use a service that only runs 1 0r 2 trains in each direction. They blame low ridership. That maqy be true, but it's low because only one or two trains use it a day! How can anyone use a service like that, that is so inconvenient?
I'm in favor of a more expensive solution: double-track the line to Ronkonkoma, and then extend electrification further out. Then make the disel's run shorter, so more frequent...
Ronkonkoma branch is double-tracked for much of its length; except at Pinelawn, Wyandanch and a stretch west of Central Islip.
wayne
Although those small stretches of single track do make it a little harder to run trains at rush hours. I don't have a schedule in front of me, but at the height of rush hour there is a few hour gap in reverse peak train service from Ronkonkoma to Farmingdale, which has to be due to the single track. It's the only time during the day that if you wanted to use Ronkonkoma or some of the trains west of there to go to the city, it is a bit inconvenient.
And on the Port Jeff Branch too. You have train 655 leaving Port Jeff at 4:03, then you have train 657 which leaves PJ yard at 6:36 when train 660 comes in. That train picks its first passengers at Stony Brook departing at 6:54 when train 662 comes in. After all of that, train 659 leaves Port Jeff at 8:32. A large gap in train service indeed. Port Jeff has lots of riders too, and if a second track was added lets say from the west end of St. James to Smithtown, or beyond to Kings Park, a large gap on the single tracked PJ branch with controlled sidings would be greatly reduced.
And off peak trains always have to sit and wait for the next train to come in. When I went to Smith Haven via St.James last week, going back (on the 4:03pm) we had to wait at Kings Park and before Northport. We waited almost 10 min at Northport.
Thanks for the info. Perhap even that could be remedied...
I don't think the LIRR wants to expand diesel services, at least where it requires coordination--i.e., where they would have to schedule and connect with electric trains.
They're very happy not having to hold electrics inbound at Ronkonkoma.
OTOH, their 20-year plan calls for electrification to Yaphank. At that time I would expect intermediate stations to be upgraded.
I have heard that also, that they expect ot extend electrification to Yaphank, whic of course will include upgrading and service improvements to Medford. I really think they should add a station at the Tanger Outlet Center in Riverhead, and expand service to Riverhead. This would also include a new station at Manorville (of course there was one there many years ago). The area around Manorville has had alot of development in the last 10 years. The whole line is very underutilized considering the development of Medford, Yaphank, and Manorville in the last few years.
You do realize that your advocacy for extending rail service to the Outlet Mall is very dangerous to those of us who have wives who like to shop...at least the traffic jams gave them some pause in the past.
You really should be more careful about posting stuff like that...
8-)
LOL. I live not too far from that mall (on the south shore though), have driven there and have actually left because it has been too busy to even park! I understand completely you concern....I don't have a wife, but did have a girlfriend and have spent much misery there. However that outlet center has killed the much closer (to me) "Bellport Outlet" center on Sunrise Highway at exit 56. It seems that as soon as the Bellport Outlet Center expanded, the Riverhead one expanded twice as much and killed the much closer Bellport Outlet Center.
Ahh the agony of shopping with women!
I have noticed that the LIRR seems to have no interest in serving malls, even where it would be relatively easy. For example, the Babylon Line runs directly adjacent to the Sunrise Mall in Massapequa and the Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream. It would be relatively simple to extend the Garden CIty Secondary to Roosevelt Field.
Why not? Possibly inertia. More likely that the LIRR sees its mission as serving commuters, not shoppers (at least Long Island shoppers), or to put it another way, isn't interested in dealing with intra-island traffic, despite the fact that it would be a fairly painless way to increase their cash flow.
OTOH, do we really want to make mall going more convenient? A number of traditional shopping areas have had a bit of a revival in recent years from a combination of the fact that there are few new malls and that some shoppers have tired of the experience. This reverses a decades-long trend in which malls have helped destroy downtowns from Freeport to Bay Shore to Patchogue, and even impacted an upscale shopping area like Garden City.
Oyster Bay line should also be electrified.
Nah! Too little riders to warrant that!
But people avoid the OB because it is diesel and trains run infrequently. If it was electrified more people would use it (thus less people driving to Manhasset, Port Wash, or Syosset. It's the chicken and egg thing again.
I have heard that Oyster Bay traffic has picked up a little with the new trains (people being happier with the equipment).
Now we need a better schedule.
Agreed. And rail service frequency increased, to encourage more ridership.
Oyster Bay could be light rail as part of a cross island line from Oyster Bay to Far Rockaway. This has been proposed several times, but the LIRR is now 100% hostile to the idea.
They are disinclined to electrify OB because of the nearness of the Syosset/Huntington Line.
At least they're no longer proposing to abandon OB.
Oyster Bay could be light rail as part of a cross island line from Oyster Bay to Far Rockaway. This has been proposed several times, but the LIRR is now 100% hostile to the idea.
Why the hostility? It doesn't seem as if the LIRR has any particular liking for the Oyster Bay line.
It's theirs and they want to run it is the current attitude. They're not prepared to give up an inch of passenger track, not even West Hempstead.
It would also be a rather pointless light rail line in that it would:
1. run almost entirely through residential neighborhoods (save for Glen Cove, Mineola, Garden City, West Hempstead, Malverne and the Five Towns)
2. miss all of downtown Hempstead, and
3. offer no connection to the LIRR at Valley Stream.
CG
It wouldn't have to slavishly follow the existing rights-of-way, so all those issues could be addressed.
run almost entirely through residential neighborhoods
That's where the current lines run, and they're served by expensive full FRA railroad servie.
"It wouldn't have to slavishly follow the existing rights-of-way, so all those issues could be addressed"
OK. I see what you're saying, the line could run down Hempstead turnpike and up Franklin Ave to connect with the ROW again through Garden City.
"That's where the current lines run, and they're served by expensive full FRA railroad servie"
Right, but that's because 6 or 7 times each morning there are 50 or so people who want to go from, say, Westwood to NYC. I doubt you'd have 50 people in a month who want to ride a light rail train from Westwood to Garden City. There's no reason not to use your car.
Light Rail would seem to make sense when you have an existing demand. There simply isn't much demand for intra-Nassau travel -- along that route or anything close to it. LI Bus doesn't even have a Hempstead to Valley Stream bus (they are supposedly going to start one shortly on a trial basis).
Light rail down the middle of Hempstead Turnpike from Jamaica to Farmingdale, or down Merrick Road from Jamaica to Babylon make great sense to me. Or north-south along the route any of the busier bus lines. But just because there's an existing ROW that makes sense (or, perhaps, never made sense) for commuter service to NYC doesn't mean that it makes sense for local travel.
CG
Well the JFK Flyer does go between Hempstead and Valley Stream. And yes I've seen people travel between Hempstead and Valley stream on the JFK flyer.
I wouldn't count on a New LI Bus route to Valley stream. They might have cuts in the upcoming Nassau budget. I just hope they don't make any cuts in my neck of the woods (N21&N27)
Technically speaking, you're not supposed to be allowed to ride the JFK flyer between Hempstead and anywhere in Nassau.
I thought I saw on BusTalk that the N3 is going to basically be converted to the N8 and turn east on Hempstead Tpk to Hempstead.
But this is SubTalk, so I'll let it rest.
I understand your point if you consider Oyster Bay to Far Rock as a market in itself.
The issue is to take advantage of current resources to provide better service at lower cost. Such a line has been conceived as a backbone to connect current services and potentially address new markets, like Roosevelt Field and/or East Meadow and/or Hempstead local traffic.
It would mean that commuters on the affected lines (OB, Far Rock, WHempstead) would lose one-seat rides into the City on the latter two lines but would gain by more frequent service delivered at lower cost.
You see, I'm not coming from the direction of considering an OB to Far Rock line in isolation. A great defect of the current system is that there are an increasing number of employment nexuses on Long Island that are effectively unserved by mass transit. All the rail transportation is directed toward delivering commuters to New York City. The State DOT realizes this and also realizes that something needs to be done to address transportation issues of Long Islanders employed on Long Island, which is the vast majority.
The current DOT proposals (www.litp2000.com) are 100% highway based solutions. Fighting this has been an uphill battle, but not it's become mountain climbing.
I sympathize with your viewpoint. Additional; rail resources to help intra-Long Island commutes can be valuable.
I share your opinion that there is value in an intra-island light rail. The difference seems to be in how to get to that point.
My concern is that converting the 3 LIRR lines doesn't provide a good representation of the market that is out there. If you convert the three lines as a first step, and the line is under-utilized (very likely in my opinion) you potentially have shot yourself in the foot when it comes to getting the $$ and public support for building the new lines that will generate ridership.
CG
I share your opinion that there is value in an intra-island light rail. The difference seems to be in how to get to that point.
My concern is that converting the 3 LIRR lines doesn't provide a good representation of the market that is out there. If you convert the three lines as a first step, and the line is under-utilized (very likely in my opinion) you potentially have shot yourself in the foot when it comes to getting the $$ and public support for building the new lines that will generate ridership.
This is part of a long story that I should try to get up on the web. In its most recent incarnations, five different light rail schemes were proposed and modeled for NYSDOT by Parsons-Brinkerhoff. The most ambitious would have included the OB-FK, but also eventual service as far west as Lake Success and as far east as Riverhead, aiming at employment centers and unserved and growing areas.
One modest plan seemed almost certain of adoption, the Nassau Hub plan centered on Mineola, Roosevelt, Hempstead and West Hempstead. A foot in the door, so to speak.
When DOT finally got down to a proposal, nothing like the original five proposals was put forth--instead a loop system mostly on parkways was proposed with bus connectors. This was set up and knocked down for an all highway and bus scheme.
In DC they recently announced that they want their Metro dollars to go further by proposing a new 100-mile plus scheme of bus lanes AND light rail. NY is resisting a national trend.
"This is part of a long story that I should try to get up on the web..."
I'd love to see it. I'd been off L.I. for the better part of 15 years before moving back in 2000. Some has changed, but most has stayed exactly the same -- except for traffic which is up quite a bit.
"They are disinclined to electrify OB because of the nearness of the Syosset/Huntington Line"
That is illogical and highly unlikely. Ridership and ROW cost Icould see as factors. But what you've stated I would not believe, unless asenior LIRR manager actually came out and explained it.
I have it from competent sources (no, not railfans or conductors).
It was not explained in so many words, but the bottom line seems to be that the LIRR has more or less compartmenalized its passenger operations, at least in expanding markets, where one line is favored to serve a particular market, without necessarily abandoning other services.
Best example of this was the upgrade to the Ronkonkoma Line that opened fully in the late '80s. This was the least used of the Suffolk diesel services. Patchogue was the heaviest used and electric service was actually promised to Smithtown and later PJ on the north.
Instead of electrifying either PJ or PD, they upgraded and electrfied RK, with new track, fast schedules and lots of parking convenient to parkways and the LIE, instead of serving the developed markets. Secondarily it gave a boost to the working class communities of Wyandanch, Brentwood, Central Islip and Ronkonkoma. Do you think this was a bad decision?
In the market area served by the Oyster Bay branch, track, service and parking improvments are currently concentrated on the Huntington Branch.
The current LIRR 20-year plan calls for electric to Speonk and Yaphank but not Port Jeff or Oyster Bay.
It's just the way it is.
Thanks for the additional information.
I don't know enough about past ridership patterns to say it was a bad or good decision. I think electrification is a good policy overall, so I'm glad they electrified something, and I'm glad they are electrifying more.
But electrification isn't necessary everywhere, and since third-rail needs more frequent placement of substations and better ROW security, you have to consider the environment around you. I like the new diesel equipment.
Your judgment is probably better than mine here...
Electrification is good. It means cleaner air, and direct service to Brooklyn and Penn. Besides, with Riverhead being the County Seat of Suffolk, shouldn't there be more frequent service being all the courts and other government offices are located there?
There seems to be some sentiment inside the LIRR that the new diesels and dual modes have taken the edge off electrification expansion, due to more comfortable equipment, snappier performance, and at least the hope of bringing more far-suburban/exurban trains into Penn.
But electrification still has its economies: centrally generated electricity is still cheaper, more efficient and more environmentally friendly than diesel-electric, not to mention the fact that with diesel, you're effectively carrying around your power plant with you.
Also, those diesel turbines have the most annoying whine when they're parked in residential areas.
I agree with you. Electric MUs accelerate faster and can maintain a higher MAS in between stops.
It was not explained in so many words, but the bottom line seems to be that the LIRR has more or less compartmenalized its passenger operations, at least in expanding markets, where one line is favored to serve a particular market, without necessarily abandoning other services.
Best example of this was the upgrade to the Ronkonkoma Line that opened fully in the late '80s. This was the least used of the Suffolk diesel services. Patchogue was the heaviest used and electric service was actually promised to Smithtown and later PJ on the north.
Instead of electrifying either PJ or PD, they upgraded and electrfied RK, with new track, fast schedules and lots of parking convenient to parkways and the LIE, instead of serving the developed markets. Secondarily it gave a boost to the working class communities of Wyandanch, Brentwood, Central Islip and Ronkonkoma. Do you think this was a bad decision?
I suspect that LIRR management did not anticipate the consequences of this decision. They probably thought that ridership on all three Suffolk lines would end up roughly equal. Instead, Ronkonkoma is overcrowded, while Patchogue and Pt. Jefferson are operating way below capacity. That sounds like a misallocation of resources to me. Worst of all, LIRR management is compounding the problem, by failing to provide sufficient service on the two diesel lines, and thereby forcing some people to use Ronkonkoma.
Before making a more uniform schedule on weekdays, the PJ branch had trains east of Huntington have train service every 1 hr. and 20 min. on shuttles to/from Huntington with the Huntington trains providing limited stops such as Syosset, Hicksville, Westbury, and Mineola before stopping at Hillside, or Jamaica. On trains that did not have a PJ connection except 2 in each direction (1 departed PJ at 8:52 back then) were all locals. I feel with 1 hr. and 30. min. service to those points is bad, and does not provide more service to Port Jeff Branch passengers. The Huntington trains make all local stops, and for trains that connect at Hicksville to Ronkonkoma trains for westerly points still make Mineola, then Hillside and Jamaica. So in ways, they are not expresses.
One point though, once bugs are worked out with the DM30AC's, PJ trains can run to Penn Station making local stops to Huntington, Hicksville, Mineola, Jamaica, and Penn Station. This would be similar to train 615 going west, and 658 going east. Although these trains would only consist of about 6 cars sandwiched by 2 engines. Slots can still be provided during middays into the East River Tunnels, and can also have direct service on weekends where there isn't any.
I have seen lots of trains almost standing room only on Port Jeff trains. Huntington, or Hicksville connections I feel should be discontinued because I have seen platforms overcrowded from trains being disembarked, by doing more direct service avoids platform overcrowding, but yet gives LIRR a chance to have more customers in the long run.
What was the fastest time from Ronkonkoma to Penn Station before electrification?
I recall an AM peak train leaving Ronkonkoma at 6:34 with a Penn connection at Jamaica arriving at 8:05.
In 1976, typical time on most trains from Penn to/from Ronkonkoma was about 1:35, with a change at either Jamaica or Hicksville.
Only 15 trains a day ran through to RK each way daily. A few more began or ended at Republic.
Now typical time is more like 1:20, not as great an improvement as you might expect, but reliability is better and most trains run through to Penn. Also I beieve the times got worse than that 1:35 as you got into the '80s.
I believe that one of the reasons for Main Line electrification was the centralized location of the Ronkonkoma Branch in Suffolk County. By electrifying thru the center of the island, both the north and south shores have equal access to direct service to Penn and/or Flatbush Ave. The Main Line is also (for the most part) devoid of curves. It's a straight shot from Ronkonkoma, enabling the railroad to take advantage of higher speeds allowed by MU operation. By electrifying either the Port Jeff (too many curves) or Montauk to Patchogue/Speonk, folks on the opposite end will lose out on faster service.
But now that Ronkonkoma is electrified, there is no reason to enhance some other lines. No one will lose anything they have now, and the electrified line will get better.
The LIRR wants it. All it takes is money...
I disagree.By being the "only game in town", so to speak, the Ronkonkoma line draws many more people to its stations, resulting in the overcrowded parking conditions and forcing the railroad to run 12 car trains on most rush hour service. If a third track is added to Hicksville, and a second track added to Ronkonkoma, this situation will only get worse, I believe. The Ronkonkoma line willbecome even more appealing than it is now.
Ronk is not supposed to remain "the only game in town." Electrification of the Montauk Line east of Babylon and of the Central Line Extension will make South Shore service a whole new ballgame and attract part of the Ronk ridership.
Extension of electrification to Yaphank, where there is ample room for more parking, and the ability to devote one track plus on Ronk and two west of Hicksville to peak direction service will also make things better.
I'm sorry, I think I need to clarify my point of view. I am a firm believer in electrification of ALL lines within reasonable commuting distance (Pt. Jeff, Speonk, O.B., Riverhead). I believe the population of Suffolk Co. justifies this. Both the Montauk and Pt Jeff branches are under utilized, and electrification would balance ridership levels on all 3 lines.
OK. I like that idea.
Just picked up this thread today...
One of the items that I think was missed is that the geographical layout of the OB line makes it an unlikely canidate for electrification. The line goes almost due south from Glen Cove to Mineola adding considerable time onto a trip.
For example, consider a Roslyn or Greenvale to Penn commuter. Current time is about 50-57 minutes. Electrification might shave 4 or 5 minutes off that (better pickup at intermediate stops and an occasional non-stop through Jamaica).
On the other hand, it's only a 10 minute drive to Manhasset where the commute time to Penn is 27-31 minutes at rush hour. And service on that branch is more reliable (PW branch -- no Jamaica).
You have a similar situation further north with Syosset/Oyster Bay and further south with Albertson / East Williston / Mineola (people drive to Mineola because it has more trains to choose from).
Commuters are very sensitive to each additional minute. I won't comment on whether it makes sense or not. The Long Beach train takes 7-8 minutes to go 1 mile (or less) from Island Park to Long Beach. Dozens of people get off each rush hour train at Island Park and drive over the bridge to Long Beach because it saves them 5 minutes each way.
CG
I do not advocate for electrification solely on the basis of time.
Electrification offers:
-Cleaner environment (no disel power)
-one seat ride from Penn Station or Brooklyn (or Grand Central when ESA is done) to Oyster Bay without the need for a change to a diesel train and a faster ride on the mainline.
-Greater use of new and existing MU fleets. Before the current bilevel purchase, that would have meant lower maintenance cost to LIRR, but with the new trains, I don't know how that comes out.
One of the items that I think was missed is that the geographical layout of the OB line makes it an unlikely canidate for electrification. The line goes almost due south from Glen Cove to Mineola adding considerable time onto a trip.
For example, consider a Roslyn or Greenvale to Penn commuter. Current time is about 50-57 minutes. Electrification might shave 4 or 5 minutes off that (better pickup at intermediate stops and an occasional non-stop through Jamaica).
On the other hand, it's only a 10 minute drive to Manhasset where the commute time to Penn is 27-31 minutes at rush hour. And service on that branch is more reliable (PW branch -- no Jamaica).
Out in Suffolk, the same applies with the Port Jefferson and Ronkonkoma lines. Even if Pt. Jefferson were electrified, it would still have longer running times because it follows a much more convoluted route than Ronkonkoma. If the LIRR spent how many millions it would take to electrify Pt. Jefferson, the line probably would still be underutilized, and Ronkonkoma trains would still be SRO.
With traffic, that drive to Manhasset can take 20 minutes or more. Not including finding a space.
It isn't the only game to the North Shore. The Huntington service is a different market. Improving the Port Jeff line by electrification would help people who do not use Ronkonkoma and would in no way hurt Ronkonkoma users.
I don't think there is any question about hurting Ronkonkoma riders. The opinion seems to have turned over in that stretch of the north shore (especially the eastern end) against electrification, where 20 years ago the fact that it was not being done was the big political issue.
I hatted changing electric/desiel on route home from stonybrook
This would also include a new station at Manorville (of course there was one there many years ago).
When was the station at Animalville closed?
Well here's a photo of Manorville from Bob Andersen's lirrhistory.com site. Actually, Manorville was first called "Saint George's Manor", then became just "Manor", and finally Manorville. The photo was taken in 1922, so it still existed then. I have no idea when it closed, but I don't think it lasted too far after WWII, but again, I have no idea.
[...] Manorville [...] Animalville [...]
An Orwellian reference I suppose. Always trying to improve us.
Manorville, Aquebogue, Laurel, amd Peconic all closed in the late 1960's. Calverton closed quietly in 1980.
I agree! A good example is the Bellport station on the Montauk branch. The station was not that well patronized and the LIRR tried to close it when it tried to close all the others it did close. There are a few reasons why it survived, unlike Center Moriches which was abandoned. Bellport is an unusual station in that it is between a very affluent area and a very poor area. The poor area is what probably saved it. The LIRR doesn't make it a very convenient station to use, as a lot of trains just skip it. The affluent area in Bellport Village doesn't really use it that much, but for the poorer area, it is the only transportation to the city that they have. The NIMBY's saved it in this case, and a major upgrade was completed. Before the upgrade, the parking lot and station were in shambles. Today, the station is used by a lot more people because of the upgrades, it is not the desolate disaster the station once was. Here is a great example of "If you build it they will come". They even added a few trains to the station in the last few years.
the same could be said for the LIC line. The line was so inconvenient to use that no one used it. The stations didn't even have signs to say they were stations. A lot of them were just a "stop" at a grade crossing. and they were such a disaster - a perfect example was Fresh Pond - Any person familiar in what that station looked like will know what I mean. Can you imagine a woman alone waiting for a train at that "station" alone in the winter when it got dark early?
A good example is the Bellport station on the Montauk branch. The station was not that well patronized and the LIRR tried to close it when it tried to close all the others it did close. There are a few reasons why it survived, unlike Center Moriches which was abandoned. Bellport is an unusual station in that it is between a very affluent area and a very poor area. The poor area is what probably saved it. The LIRR doesn't make it a very convenient station to use, as a lot of trains just skip it. The affluent area in Bellport Village doesn't really use it that much, but for the poorer area, it is the only transportation to the city that they have. The NIMBY's saved it in this case, and a major upgrade was completed. Before the upgrade, the parking lot and station were in shambles. Today, the station is used by a lot more people because of the upgrades, it is not the desolate disaster the station once was. Here is a great example of "If you build it they will come". They even added a few trains to the station in the last few years.
Bellport service is still pretty spotty. As far as I know, Montauk trains don't stop there, only Speonk ones do. You are right, however, ridership is said to have increased considerably.
Yeah, Bellport still needs more trains to make it a "real" station. it's probably the only station that gets skipped on the line after Patchogue with a lot of Montauk trains (some do stop there though). It is better than it was before though. Before the improvements it was just a step up from looking like the former LIC local stations, so many people did not use it. Even though there was a lot, it was a dirt lot with huge ruts, and most people were probably afraid to leave there car there. Since the parking lot and station improvements there, I've noticed cars actually parked there - not many, but some are more than NONE, so ridership must have improved a bit. Most of the passengers are still "drop-offs" or walkers though.
Yeah, Bellport still needs more trains to make it a "real" station. it's probably the only station that gets skipped on the line after Patchogue with a lot of Montauk trains (some do stop there though). It is better than it was before though. Before the improvements it was just a step up from looking like the former LIC local stations, so many people did not use it. Even though there was a lot, it was a dirt lot with huge ruts, and most people were probably afraid to leave there car there. Since the parking lot and station improvements there, I've noticed cars actually parked there - not many, but some are more than NONE, so ridership must have improved a bit. Most of the passengers are still "drop-offs" or walkers though.
Parking at Bellport's probably reasonably safe because the station and parking area are in plain sight from the busy Montauk Highway. Contrast that to Medford, where the layout of the parking area makes most parked cars pretty much out of sight, even though the area is right off heavily trafficed Route 112. I'm very hesitant about parking at Medford ever since my car's windshield was cracked by a thrown rock a few months ago.
I live in Bellport, but don't use the station too often because by using it, I have to arrange my schedule around the few trains that stop there. (Medford must be even harder!) I usually drive to Patchogue (or Ronkonkoma if I know I will be in the city late, as the last train out of Penn to Patchogue is at about 12:30 AM, then nothing until about 5:00 AM). I do use Bellport though if I am dropped off, and don't have to worry about confining myself to Bellport's schedule.
Boy, I got on a tanget in the last post. What I originally wanted to say by mentioning Patchogue in my other response was in response to the rock that got thrown at your car in Medford. I had the same thing happen to my windshield at Patchogue - and that's a busy station and parking lot! But, I do agree, the Medford parking lot has always been quite desolate whenever I have been there, and it's much more likely to happen there.
It's proximity to Ronkonkoma, with it's frequency and availability of trains, made it very, very undesirable.
They could always stop there so the conductor could use the restroom...
:0)
That's probably why Richmond Hill was closed, because even though it had a high platform, they could not make it ADA compatible. Larger than normal gap to the train, plus an elevator would be necessary since no room for ramps. And an elevator in that neighborhood...
No, that's not true. MTA does not have to close a station because it cannot make it ADA-compliant.Stations are closed for reasons of ridership.
If I recall correctly, Richmond Hill is on an LIRR line serving LIC station (correct me if I am wrong). If so, it closed for the same reason the other stations closed.
I'm not defending the closures, mind you. I think it would be great to have LIRR service back on those lines, if it had somewhere to go. If Long Island City developed further into a MetroTech type of place, I would advocate for adding third rail to the LIC line and running trains there every hour or more depending on ridership demand. And I would rebuild new stations at places like Glendale and Richmond Hill.
MTA does not have to close a station because it cannot make it ADA-compliant. Stations are closed for reasons of ridership.
Stations that undergo substantial renovations must be made ADA-compliant in the process. Richmond Hill would not have needed renovations in order to accommodate the bilevels, and therefore would not have to be made compliant.
The truth is the LIC stations did close because of low ridership. But let's look at why. The LIRR made no effort to increase ridership at those stations. I look at the former LIC stations the same way I look at the Ronkonkoma to Greenport stations. They are so inconvenient to use that no one can possibly use them! How can anyone use a station efficiently if only one or two trains stop there in a day? The LIRR made it impossible to use, so no one would ride, so they could claim "low ridewrship" to finally end service there completely.
Yeah, chicken and egg. True.
You are right. It is a "chiicken and egg" thing. Serivce is so bad that no one rides, so the LIRR cuts service. This cut service means very few trains, so no one rides, so service is cut or is not increased, so no one can conveniently use it. It is a vicious circle.
But, then, how do you decide which stations to spend money on upgrading? LIRR spent some money at Ronkonkoma because it's an electric terminal with plenty of demand - so it's cost-effective.
If Southampton College really wanted LIRR service, badly enough to spend, say, $4 million of its own money upgrading the station, it wouldn't cost LIRR much to stop trains there 8 or 10 times a day, or whatever, during school sessions. Maybe a friendly local assemblyman could find the money.
Sometimes it is a tough call. The railroad isn't always right, nor always wrong.
What do you do about Murray Hill on the Port Washington Branch? Relatively low usage, not far from Broadway station, which is fully ADA compliant and getting another rehab soon. Murray Hill is a crappy, graffitti tagged station which handles only four cars. Fixing it would probably cost at least twice as much as what MTA paid to upgrade Bayside (which was about $4.5 million), and that's not even counting that land constraints might dictate an elevator, as opposed to long, switch-back ramps like at Bayside. So add another 2 or 3 million bucks.
Is Murray Hill worth it? Or do you just upgrade the lighting, put in tactile strips on the platform, clean off the graffitti and spend the rest of your money on Broadway and Flushing-Main Street?
Serivce is so bad that no one rides, so the LIRR cuts service.
Typical railroad. But just wait... it'll backfire on them...
For instance, look at Birmingham Snow Hill in the UK. Until 1967 it was a 12 platform station with ample local trains and fast trains to London and Birkenhead. After 1967, only two routes were served: an hourly one car train to Wolverhampton LL and an hourly one car train to Langley Green (with 3 intermediate stops) to connect to trains to Stourbridge. Needless to say, ridership fell - even if it hadn't the trains were too small to be profitable - so in 1972 Snow Hill closed and was turned into a parking lot. In the late 70s they pulled the station down. By the mid 80s, BR realised that they had made a huge mistake (Stourbridge service in particular was a headache as it had to merge on the level with the West Coast Main Line - oops) and in 1987 Snow Hill re-opened at massive cost to the taxpayer for the new building. London service resumed a few years later. Yet the idiots still hadn't learnt and put a disasterously loss-making trolley line on the old route to Wolverhampton (trains too short again). Now they've realised that 3 platforms isn't enough. Oops. It doesn't take a genious to work out that if they hadn't deliberately spent the late 60s and early 70s sabotaging a station and the lines into it, we wouldn't be paying for it now.
Unfortunately there are a whole host of other idiotic closures. Makes you want to charge the BR board of the 1960s the cost of restoring the lines. Oh yes - their excuse: "we thought everyone would be using helicopters by 1980, so there was no need for all that service"... and I'm going to the City on Starship Enterprise...
ADA is required if the renovation at a station requires > $100K in capital expenses.
The reason east-of-Ronkonkoma survives is because they cannot politically nor legally shut it down. LIRR's 1836 NYS charter says they must run daily service on their main line between Brooklyn and Greenport. They could easily run an hourly 2-car shuttle to Yaphank as well. But that requires operating funds. They would rather get capital funds and build parking lots and decks.
And Yaphank sorely needs a brand new parking lot and terminal if more service is to go there!
One lucky thing with Yaphank and Medford is that there is still quite a bit of vacant land near the tracks, even if they have to move the stations a bit (like they did at Deer Park, Brentwood, etc). I would be glad if they at least extend "real" service to Yaphank, but really feel they should brign real service all the way to Riverhead, even if they only do it with diesel service (similar to Patchogue to Babylon service), with a new station at Manorville.
I miss that whole line. I used to use Fresh Pond and Glendale occasionally. It's a shame that they abandoned sevice on the LIC line. It was a lot of fun to ride. All they needed to do was add a stairway/ramp for one doorway. They really didn't want to continue service there, as it really wasn't all that hard if they really wanted to. They just tried to make it as inconvenient as posible, with as little trains as possible.
"It's a shame that they abandoned sevice on the LIC line"
They didn't completely abandon it, as trains do still run. But it would be interesting to know what kind of ridership it had.
LIC is booming, development wise, but I suspect that existing subway service, including the newest station at 21 Street-Queensbridge, which opened in 1989 and is now connected to Queens-bound trains, is is sufficient. For more frequent LIRR service to be worthwhile, there would have to be a lot more going on there,
LIC may be booming, but by ending the "local" service in between, it doesn't really matter how many trains actually are LIC bound. It doesn't help the "rail"-less comunities in between.
That's true, but I suspect it's a chicken and egg thing. LIC not sufficiently developed as a destination = no need for further service (ie the subway is enough for local service to it).
Would more service spur more development - maybe it would. It did in other communities, why not in LIC?
You are right, but I still think the LIC local service would have been a lot more used if people actually knew there was train service at thye various local stations, and if they made it more convenient to use. How can anyone plan their day (and use a rail station) if they have to arrange their schedule around one or two trains in each direction that the LIRR provided when the line was used?
I agree with you.
Unless you're on the Friday night party train...
I can't help but think this here. If I'm not mistaken, LIC has third rail trackage there. And the local communities between LIC and Jamaica are somewhat quite distant from the nearest subway station not counting Fresh Pond and Richmond Hill. Would installing third rail, building high-level platforms, and constructing a connecting spur to the East River tunnels be considered a sound idea? This run may actually serve manhattan workers more quickly to get home faster than taking a subway, then bus if this service is created. It may also ease up traffic on the Main run from Woodside to Jamaica. This plan sounds legit. It sure beats riding the J and Z to 121 Street from all the way Downtown with that slow skip-stop service.
Yes, you're right; it would be better.
The question would be how to plug the line into the tunnels to Manhattan. The line goes west of Sunnyside Yard, correct? So you may not be able to plug it in to the 63rd Street tubes to integrate this with ESA (but I may be wrong about that). As to the Penn tubes, I don't know enough about the geometry...
If I recall, there is sort of a ramp just west of the tunnel portals and the Hunters Point station. I know the ramp rises in the westbound direction but possibly a connecting spur can be built in the same manner. Maybe even using the old LIRR Bay Ridge Line as a connector to Sunnyside is possible. I would have to check to see if these two routes cross over each other. I think they do, but then again, there may be spurs in LIC that may be used for this connector. I have to check my Hagstrom Atlas of Queens to look this up.
Maybe even using the old LIRR Bay Ridge Line as a connector to Sunnyside is possible. I would have to check to see if these two routes cross over each other. I think they do, but then again, there may be spurs in LIC that may be used for this connector. I have to check my Hagstrom Atlas of Queens to look this up.
The "Bay Ridge" Line crosses the Montauk branch near the Metropolitan station of the M line. It crosses over it on a Bridge. It's not really the Bay Ridge Branch at this point yet though. It is part of the New York Connecting Railroad there. I believe the Bay Ridge line officially starts at Fremont.
Thanks for the input. Using that connection is rather useless. Still checking for other possible options in LIC.
Actually, here is a rather cool photo from this site of the BYCRR bridge over the Montauk Branch. You are right though, the connection is basically useless for your idea though.
Of course I meant "NYCRR" not "BYCRR".
The whole LIC to Jamaica line would benefit from passenger traffic (not the joke that they used to run on the line). The area it runs through does not have any sort of rail or subway service. Transfers could be provided at the Metropolitan to the M and at Richmond Hill to 121 on the J. A third track would be a necessity on the line, as it is a very useful freight line, that should not hinder in the process. If it is used by the LIRR they could share the tracks, but any subway conversion would necessitate at least a third track because doue to FRA regulations they wouldn't be able to share the tracks.
I understand that, but this plan has nothing to do with running subways on this ROW. Electrification, high plats, and a connecting spur to the East River tunnel is the initial plan.
One of the passengers on the first train through South Ferry tonite was so excited and thrilled by the experience that he left his backback on the train when it pulled out of Chambers Street heading back uptown.
The backpack was turned over to the T/O.
Was there an absent minded subtalker on the train?
HA ha ha! Man, you gotta control yourself! Where are MTA employess supposed to bring lost stuff to in the event that no one claims it?
34th and eigth n/b side is the lost property office. It takes a bit for it to get there Via internal mail
Has anyone ever claimed that artificial leg?
If the backpack is turned over to the train crew, the bag is at Van Cortlandt Park dispatcher's office. Probably be there until monday whe it will be taken to lost property. 34 St/8 Ave Manhattan.
If the bag was turned over to an Agent at a booth, it's probably heading for lost property now.
IIRC, the T/O turned the backpack in to the
Dispatcher upon arriving at 242 at 0001 hours..
Whoa! That's 2 much excitment.
-AcelaExpress2005
Yannow... come to think if the BACKPACK
belonged to one of the MTA personnel,
you'd think he could radio 14st to have
the bag be left THERE for him to retrieve..
(or the nearest suitable tower location)
IIRC, the T/O still had the backpack with
him upon arriving at 242 at 0001 hours..
YES! I got to Chambers at like 10PM (super early). Waited, waited, waited, some folk from the UTC meeting got out and arrived. One of my friends came along with someone he knew but to see the tunnel, he had no clue that the train would be running through. So it comes 10:49 and the train rolls through. The T/O comes out of his cab and says no passengers, but all the vests get on so us railfans just board as well and try to blend in. Tada! Doors close and we move..no more than 15-20mph though. Cortlandt looks like it has a platform as it has the edge but there seems to be a roller divider seperating the edge from the tracks, and there's a flag hung on the uptown side. Rector is redone, floor and wall tiles. South Ferry inner loop new track, and outer loop new track, new gap fillers, looks like they cleaned the shit off the tiles or installed new ones. Couldn't tell. New stairway is at the 10 car mark with metal staircase. Looks really cheap, but hey, it does the trick. I don't need to do the reverse trip because..it's the same line lol. All in all, good fricken job!!
Must check it out on Monday. No school that day.
Amen, Clayton!
Yeah!!! Cool!
Thanks for the report.
Bill "Newkirk"
Doth brung a tear to my eye to see the USA Flag
hung on the "retaining wall" at Cortlandt..
I, personally took the 2150 train roundtrip from
242 down south, and back... returning to VCP at
precisely 0001 hours..
Nice to see all of you SubTALKers there, even tho
we didn't know we had family there till reading these
re-cap (mad-cap!) posts...
Must've been some trip - oh and...
Great graphic!!!
Congratulations (1) and (9)... Rector Street should be opening soon.
N Broadway Line
In Solidarity
>>Congratulations (1) and (9)... Rector Street should be opening soon.<<
Rector St. station is open, BMT and IRT.
Bill "Newkirk"
Great!
Service should now be restored on the 1/9 lines to Rector Street and South Ferry, as well as Cortlande Street for the N/R lines. This also means that the 2 and 3 will return to their normal express routes...WOO HOO!!! :-) -Nick
As of 0400 UTC 9/15/02, 1 2 3 returned to its normal duties. The 9 is still on vacation and will return to its job first thing 5AM 09UTC Monday morning.
Good. Let us celebrate this moment with beer. I'll bring the kegs.
Does the MTA offer Neiborhood maps online or do I have to go to the indivduals stations. Also it would really nice if there was a connection between Broadway prince street and 6th ave broadway lafayette. It is less than 40 feet.
Manhattan only:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/localmaps/
Personally, I thnk that a Broadway-Lafayette/Prince transfer is a great idea. It would be easy to build except that the unused IND mezzanine west of Broadway is now crew/maintenance/mechanical space. The cost would be partially absorbed by the savings of making one or both Prince Street booths part-time, a part of the cost justification for the work at Delancey/Essex, the proposed uptown Bleecker connection to Broadway-Lafayette, and the possible Rector Street station connection.
Still, I doubt that it will happen. Sixth Avenue riders can connect to the N and R uptown at Herald Square and in Brooklyn eventually at Jay-Lawrence and DeKalb or Pacific. The TA would consider the connection redundant. The same reasoning will probably prevent elevators/escalators at 4th Avenue/9th Street. When there is a limited capital budget, these are the choices that are made. Makes me wonder about all those unnecessary tile replacements $$$$.
[I]Makes me wonder about all those unnecessary tile replacements $$$$[/I]
I'm sure it's a vanity thing. I can't imagine how much it would cost just to replace that bathroom tile look. Personally, I think the look suits the Subways for some odd reason.
(Personally, I thnk that a Broadway-Lafayette/Prince transfer is a great idea... Still, I doubt that it will happen.)
As it happens, a complete station rehab or Broadway-Lafayette and Bleeker, including a southward extension of the northbound platform at Bleeker and a full transfer, is in design. Hopefully it will not be cut out of the capital program, since it would be great if IND riders could catch the #6.
As for Prince Street on the BMT, there is already a transfer at Canal Street to the # 6, so that would be redundant. And, as you say, people can already choose between Broadway and 6th Avenue service at Herald Square and DeKalb/Pacific.
I was coming home from the Village going to Whitehall, and it was about 11:55, me and my friends caught the W (R68)train. As the train pulled out of Canal Street the conductor goes:
"Attention passengers, next stop will be City Hall then Cortlandt Street. We will be the first train to stop at the reopened Cortlandt Street Station...."
I was very psyched, I wanted to get off there but my friends had the 12:30 boat to catch back to staten island.
I was going with a few friends to the San Gennaro festival in Little Italy last night and we met at 28th Street and Broadway. We went down to the 28th street station and I was surprised that a W pulled into the station there (and there was Q on the opposite side), but assumed they must have been working on the Manhattan Bridge and the bridge was closed to trains, which it was. So we got off at Canal Street, did our thing and when it was time to go back, got on at Canal. The entrance we used was the one that enters right onto the Nassau Line platform, so we had to transfer through the bridge station to get to the Broadway line station.
That's where the mess comes in. I determined that a lot people just don't read or pay attention to signs. There on the Q and W platform on both sides where literally "hundreds" of people waiting for the trains that won't ever come (at least not till Monday) and staring into the tunnel. They had signs covering the walls and had an announcent playing stating that the Q&W will not be stopping here and instead use the N/R platforms for the Q and W which can be gotten there, running local. The station was packed with people. It looked like any normal day when trains are using the station. People just stood there looking into the tunnel. I tried to tell some people that there were no trains using the station, and to go upstairs to the other station, but most just looked at me like I had two heads, so I gave up halfway across the platform.
So we finished our transfer, got to the N/R platform and got on our Q back to 28th Street just sort of baffled by all the people downstairs that will have quite a wait unless they decide to listen to direction.
Chris
They are the weakest link.
Also the loudest!
How many of these clueless people were Chinese? That could explain the confusion.
Of course quite a few, but there were many people there that weren't Chineese as well. I have seen service notices in Chineese at Canal Street in the past, but I wasn't really in full "railfan" mode yesterday to really pay attention if they had them yesterday. There were plenty of signs though and the announcements. They really should have had some employees there directing those poor people off the bridge Platform to the N/R platform if there were no signs in Chineese, especially because that platorm was completely closed to trains.
It's different at that station then when they may occasionally close a station (or line) due to trackwork in other locations. Usually, they can just close the station completely, and be done with it. In a case like this, they can't completely close the station because those platforms are the only way to transfer between the Nassau line and the Lexington or Broadway lines at Canal. it is just like when the station was "abandoned" for a few years with the MB work. There was always at least one platform open at that station so people could transfer, even though no trains used it for years. It was never really "abandoned" to people walking in it.
I still can't believe how many people were just waiting there for the train - probably for quite a long time before they realized no trains were coming.
I remember one weekend not too long ago, going to Chinatown and the Q was going through the tunnel. All these people were just waiting there, even though there were signs posted all over the place. As I was walking I kept speaking loudly (no trains here use the local N,R platform). Not many people listened. And alot of these people weren't chinese either.
Of course this week I'm avoiding the area, Canal street is just insane when they have the Little Italy festival.
G.O.'s aren't fun, that why I don't usually do my railfanning or subway riding on weekends. It's not the GO's themselves that bother me that much, but the chaos from all the confused people.
They could tape the platforms off, but people will rip the tape.
That's why we call 'em "geese"!
Hmm..I also thought it was funny not too long ago (before 9/8)when people got off the N at 36th St to wait for the W....most of the time, their W did not catch up the N at Pacific...week after week, people would get off to wait for the W...I guess it never sank in...
On the R shuttle the other day, the conductor made the annoucement, for service to Coney Island, wait for the W making all "B" line stops to CI...
Yep, the W is a foreign entity around here...
(Snicker) You should have seen them last Sunday (9/8) at Pacific. An N and W would arrive together, N on the express and W on the local. People would run off the W onto the N, because everyone knows the W only goes to Pacific on the weekends. The fact that everyone on the N was running for the W didn't seem to faze them.
Actually there were Chinese notices posted on the wall. Last night when I was walking on the platform, there were lot of people who speak English, indeed, they just didn't realize the notice on the wall.
Sheep.
Reminds me of the July 4, 1976 debacle at Broad Street when hundreds of people descended into the southbound BMT station only to find out that trains weren't boarding there, only terminating.
wayne
Reminds me of the July 4, 1976 debacle
And what caused this debacle?
SOMEBODY was giving misleading information at the subway entrance!
wayne
I watched the day-long bicentennial telecast on CBS hosted by Walter Cronkite on that day. Quite a few scenes of New York Harbor, IIRC.
Perhaps they needed a guy with a bullhorn in the station chasing them out. These people are so into their routines they don't pay attention. But weekend subway riding is anything but routine!
I don't look at this as a "mess". I look at it as hilarious! If there were signs posted all over the walls and "clear" announcements continuously playing, this whole thing sounds like a personal problem to me. The ONLY people who have an excuse are ones who might be "mentally challenged", and how many of those were among the "hundreds" on the platform? Even the visually impaired could have heard the announcements, and the hearing impaired could have read the signs.
I have mentioned a few times on this board in the past that otherwise intelligent humans become bumbling morons once they enter a transit platform or facility. This is no exception.
I don't look at this as a "mess". I look at it as hilarious!
I didn't want ot sound calous, but I found it funny myself, as it was very clear that no trains were stopping on the bridge platforms.
I have mentioned a few times on this board in the past that otherwise intelligent humans become bumbling morons once they enter a transit platform or facility. This is no exception.
That is true, as I really think these people really didn't pay attention. I even was trying to help people, by telling them to go upstairs, but they looked at me like I was the one that needed mental help. I have seen service notices in Chineese before (and someone mentioned they have seen them in this case). It's not just a language barrier, it's pure stupidity and not listening in this case. It wasn't just Chinese people waiting for trains there.
It would have been nice if the TA had just put up yellow tape roping off the platform. Even the most goose-like people notice that.
Yeah. They notice it. Then they rip it down so they can look up the tracks to spot the next train.
"Yeah. They notice it. Then they rip it down so they can look up the tracks to spot the next train."
I'm sure you're right. But I've seen it used effectively many times. At least the TA should start off on the right foot by putting up the tape.
How about a little cord that gives you a little shock when you lean forward to look for a train. Works well with livestock, so it may work with geese as well. :-0
I just received the new Amtrak Travel Planner 2002 about a week ago and I noticed that in the Southwest Cheif they use 4 AMD103 Locomotives, Do they use all 4 because it needs to supply enough HEP power? And How many Cars are used on the Southwest Chief? Since I model Amtrak I want to model the Southwest Chief. Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
The Southwest Chief, in addition to a "normal" Amtrak long-distance passenger consist (transition dorm, 2-3 sleepers, diner, lounge, 2-3 coaches) also carried about a dozen Amtrak Express boxcars on the tail end. It carries a LOT of mail -- and believe it or not, in strawberry season, California strawberries in those refrigerated Amtrak boxcars that went into service about a year ago.
The Sunset Limited is about the same size nowadays, too, but owing to lesser grades along the route (#1-2 don't have Raton Pass to contend with...) it rates three Genesis locos. A couple Sundays ago, I photo'ed it at Colton (running ONLY six hours late...) with three units, in three paint schemes, from three different orders of the Genesis units.
Oh Kool, do you have the photo uploaded on the PC, I would like to see it. Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005
In the era of "privatization" (that's before ATK) such high value perishables were often forwarded on "passenger" trains but because there were more than one on a route, the flagship was not used. In the 60's when I was at a small college in western Illinois, the Milw Rd's ARROW--their head end and minimal accomodation train between Omaha & Chicago would come through anywhere up to four hours late trailing "express" reefers and a rider coach on the rear for the flagman. The delays were compounded by an icing stop at Council Bluffs.
Of course, David Gunn has now argued that the flows don't make money. He's probably right. Once you get into the situation where a trackage right holder is bidding against a track owner to run boxcars, you very soon find ridiculously low bids. Unfortuantely, this is the usual entry-exit problem. Freight railroads won't take boxcars seriously unless Amtrak is prepared to bid against them, but once Amtrak bids against them, nobody makes any money on them, including Amtrak.
The problem with this nation's railroad system is that nobody makes any money, passenger or freight. The freight people are better off, but only marginally so than the passenger people. Where the trucks are hurting, i.e. in Metropolitan areas, happens to be where rail has no advantage.
AEM7
Sounds like Atlas Shrugged to me. The solution, of course, is more government regulation and subsidies to the industry.
Don't know that government regulation will work. They tried that already. You aren't old enough to live through the pre-Staggers era.
AEM7
well anyone who thinks "deregulation" works should buy non-refundable tickets on Eastern, Pan Am (1 or 2), Braniff or perhaps Sabena. The current world of many disparate prices for identical service on the same train or plane is both unethical and rider hostile.
Add to that the "long haul short haul " price gouging, I'
m for reinstituting regulation today if not tomorrow. One fare for one route for one grade of service say I.
>>> One fare for one route for one grade of service say I. <<<
That is a little extreme. I agree that some of the present pricing is ridiculous, but when you have space that will go to waste if not used, I can certainly see discounts for standby fares to use unused space, and discounts for non-refundable tickets to have a guaranteed revenue stream. (There is already trip insurance for non-refundable charter flights. Maybe someday there will be a futures market for airline seats.) Along with that type of pricing there should be much higher penalties for overbooking flights.
Tom
the first in service car to south ferry was 2210
Will R142's stop there before SF renovations, etc.?
2190 was the motor of the 2150 VCP train.
I got pics! I'll post them Tuesday or Wednesday.
---Brian
This question probably came up before but why did Amtrak order the Acela to be 50% heavier than the regular TGV? I think that's why they found those damn cracks in the Trucks because of the heavy weight. If Amtrak had ordered the Acela from Alstom, it would be lighter allowing the Trainset to reach higher speeds.
-AcelaExpress2005
Where did you come up with this? It is heavy because the FRA mandated that it weigh a certain amount and wouldn't change if a different company made it.
Ohhhhhhh, I thought Amtrak wanted the Acela Express at that weight, Maybe the FRA should change the standards with High Speed Rail.
-AcelaExpress2005
I just noticed that Metro-North Train Third rail shoe picks up power from under the rail instead of over it like the Subways and LIRR, Why is Metro-North Different?
-AcelaExpress2005
When the Grand Central Terminal electrification was designed and built between 1900 and 1913, the New York Central's engineering consultants recommended an underrunning third rail different from the overrunning style designed for the LIRR and IRT at about the same time. Apparently the thought was that winter ice build-up would be less of a problem than with the overrunning style. Of course, the contact shoe in an underrunning system must be spring-loaded to ensure continuous contact.
In North America, excepting Metro North and SEPTA, all of the conventional, steel-wheeled, third rail subway and commuter lines use overrunning third rail - NYC Transit, LIRR, Boston, Chicago, Toronto, WAMATA, Baltimore, Atlanta, Miami, Los Angeles, and BART. Aside from Metro-North (nee New York Central), the only other line that uses underruning third rail is SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line. Interestingly SEPTA's Broad Street Line does use New York style overrunning third rail.
SEPTA's Norristown High Speed Line (route 100, P&W) also uses overrunning third rail.
Thanks for the info!
It should also be noted that historically speaking, a covered overrunning third rail is an improved and safer form of the uncovered third rail which is still used by some rapid transit systems. Obviously, overhead wire is a lot safer than ground level third rail. The NY Central has a clearance issue with overhead wires or rails and only where the switchwork nessitated it, an overhead rail system was installed for the locomotives to draw power from. The multiple-unit cars were usually run in pairs or more or could coast through a large gap in the the third rail. The NY Central opted for the safest form of ground level third rail pick-up. It is very difficult for a person to make contact with the underrung third rail and ground. In the early days of electrification many variations of third rail and overhead pick-up were tried. The New Haven experimented with a center (Lionel type) third rail and that type of system still exists on some London Underground routes. The B&O Baltimore tunnel electrification was the first of th mainline RR electrifications. It statrted witha heavy overhead rail system. However it was converted to overrunning exposed third rail. You can learn all about the history of the early electrifications from a book titled "When the Steam RR's Electrified". It is my favorite traction book.
Top sliding third rail also uses a spring loaded shoe, just like under sliding. 3rd rail as seen on the Chicago El or the UK Southern electrifacation zone or the London Underground use top-running gravity shoes.
Additionally, anything that's ICTS or derivitive uses side running pickup with fourth rail electrification. The two power rails stacked vertically on the same holder. The pair of pickup shoes are stacked vertically on the trucks and run along the sides of the power rails that face the train.
-Robert King
Does Anybody know when they gonna cut the V Train from the system? I really want the 6 car G Train back.
-AcelaExpress2005
No. And the 6 car G trains should be restored shortly anyway.
Where on earth did you get the idea that the V is going to be eliminated?
I thought that because I see that it wasn't getting that much revenue, How is the 6 Car G Train gonna be restored? Where are the cars gonna come from?
-AcelaExpress2005
The V isn't going anywhere.
As the R143's arrive, the R40's (and R42's to follow) have been leaving ENY for Coney Island. As more R40-42 come from ENY to CI and get redistributed on lines out of Coney Island, that will free up some R46's for the G train.
The "G", and all it's R46s are shopped out of Jamaica Yard, so any equipment moves won't be R46-for-R42/R40M/R40, rather it would be a three-way trade involving shipping whatever Phase II R32 that is left in Coney Island's care to Jamaica Yard, and their replacement with R40M and R42 displaced from Eastern Division.
so, a possible scenario would go as follows:
R46 from E,F,R go to G
and are replaced by R32 from CI
which are replaced by R40M/R42 from Eastern Div
which are replaced by incoming R143.
wayne
The E doesn't have any R46's, maybe 2 sets.
Yeah, I meant the three way switch. Sorry, I didn't make that clear in my post.
G trains will be restored to 6 car length (or even 8 car length in future) as new subway cars come on line. Some cars are already here. G train shortages were created because of the V train servic4e, but are being solved by the new subway cars coming in. So, in the end, there will be enough cars for everybody.
There is no chance the V train willbe eliminated - and indeed, no reason to eliminate it. There is a very good reason to extend it to Brooklyn, and to increase its frequency.
Thanks!
"There is a very good reason to extend it to Brooklyn, and to increase its frequency."
I am a common V rider from Woodhaven Blvd and see nothing wrong with its frequency. It's every 10 minutes during the midday and 5-8 minutes at rush hour. Considering it isn't that crowded, I don't see a need for more frequency. As to extending it to Brooklyn, you can do that as a luxury, but it is not really essential. F trains operate at 4-6 minutes headway on the rush and 8 minutes during the day, covering Brooklyn just fine. The only advantage of running it to Brooklyn is having the F run express from Jay to Church. I wouldn't suggest the V going all the way out to Kings Highway b/c it could create a bottleneck there. Church has a lot of room for relay.
There IS a need to extend the V into Culver, eiher as a local or express. Even 15tph is not enough and F trains always get very crowded. I ride the F every morning to Queens from Church Av, but there is NEVER any seats available and very few space to stand. Extending the V now is not possible or there will be mass congestion on the F/G/(V) at Bergen. We'll just have to wait until the interlocking system at Bergen is repaired so either the F or V goes express. My idea would be to have the G run to Church Av local, V to Coney Is. local, 1/2 the F to Church Av as an express and the other 1/2 to Coney Is. express.
If they could free up enough cars to get the V down to Church, and if they repair Bergen interlocking, then the F can run express to Church and the V local, with the G running local to Church.
One way to do that is for the E and the V to swap cars - the E gets all R46's and the V gets all R32's. Then you cut down the V to 8 car trains of R32's, and just maybe you could squeeze the V out to Church. I don't think you'll get enough 8 car R32's this way. 4 10 car R32's become 5 8 car trains.
You would also have to add one or two G trains to make up for the extension from Smith 9th to Church.
Maybe with the arrival of the R160's.
So this means more R32's on the F coming soon, right? :-)
It means more subway cars available to the F, regardless of type...
I really want the 6 car G Train back.
The TA will be restoring 6-car G train service. However, the restoration shows some shortsighted thinking on the TA's part that will cost it money and the riders improved service.
The current combination of 4-car G trains and 10 minute headways provides inadequate service. There are two possible methods for improving service: increase train length or reduce headways.
The use of 300 foot long trains indicates that OPTO would be possible; the use of 480 foot long trains precludes this possibility.
Suppose, instead of increasing train length the headways were reduced to 8 minutes. The same number of cars would be in operation so crowding would be the same. The average waiting time would be reduced from 5 minutes to 4 minutes. If OPTO service were provided, then less manpower would be required despite more trains (but not cars) assigned to the line.
Suppose the TA should want to go to OPTO in the future. It would have to reduce train size back down to 4 cars. This would be preceived as a service reduction and would generate passenger opposition.
The TA's interest would be served by going to 8 minute headways even if 2-man operation were required in the short run. OPTO is coming; it is sad that the TA management appears to resist this change as much as the union.
You state: "OPTO is coming, it is sad that TA management appears to resist this change as much as the union". We have OPTO already: on the GC-TSQ shuttle, W.4-Grand shuttle, Franklin shuttle, weekend M, midnight Dyre, N midnight, etc. Unless you want it on regular mainline services. Fine. But the first time you have door trouble in the last car and the t/o may have to walk almost 600' to and another 600' from in additon to the time needed to address the problem, you will have a massive delay especially on a heavily used corridor line.
42 St Shuttle is two person operation, one operator at each end of the train.
From what I read here, but because of my working hours I have never seen it, 4 car R46 consists on the G particularly during the rush are overcrowded and people want 6 car trains. Since over 100 R143's are now on the property and ENY has transfered cars to CI with other cars transfered elsewhere, it can be done right now. The TA would have enough AAABBA (yes one ABABBA) sets running daily between Court Sq and Smith/9th. But what about after 8 PM when the G gets extended to Continental? Where do you get additional 6 car R46 trains from? They would be useless all day. It is not efficient to have these trainset sitting in Jamaica Yard all day and bring them out at night while you are laying up R32's and regular ABBAABBA R46 consists from the R/V. You need more manpower and manpower costs $$$. Currently in order to lenghten G service, all they do is cut 2 R or V layups. If they do that while 6 car sets are running, you now have some 4's and some 6's. Very confusing to the crews and a good chance for a crew to stop at wrong stopmarkers and passengers not knowing where to stand on the platforms. The dispatchers have to set it up so that the 4 car sets end up at Continental in the morning, a difficult task considering all the GO's on the midnight. It is not operationally practical to cut the 2 AA cars off either, they already have enough problems out there. On Friday night after the PM rush, all 6 cars consists would have to be laid up no matter what to set up weekend OPTO service.
You know, why are they even USING R46's on the "G", wouldn't R32's do just as well? And for those who argue that the R32s are older and somehow inferior, the A/C on the R32 is just as good as that on the R46, and in case of the Phase I, better.
wayne
I would think that use of a particular car type on the G is dependent on availability and convenience of assignment to a maintenance shop. The issue of R32 vs. R46 is a trivial one outside of that context.
Actually, I thought the choice of the R46 over the R32 on the (G) was over OPTO (One Person Train Operation, for the uninitiated) concerns. Since the (G) will often (if not always) have only the T/O (driver) and no C/R (conductor), that one person will need to see both sides of the platform in order to open and close the doors. Since the R46 has a full-length cab and the R32 does not, I think we have a done deal.
:-) Andrew
...that one person will need to see both sides of the platform in order to open and close the doors
Sorry. I meant that one person will need to see the platforms on both sides of the train. My bad.
:-) Andrew
Thank you, you bring up a good point. You are correct in that the 75 footers offer certain advantages with regard to OPTO. However, is OPTO "TA-approved" with 6 cars? It certainly is nott with 8 right now...
I can't see the problem with running the R32's when the G runs only to Court Sq. The 6 car R46 cars are not OPTO'ed anyway, and neither are the 4 car G trains during this time either. Most OPTO G trains are V or R sets cut in half at Continental in the evening and re-connected early the next morning.
There is no G OPTO weeknights. It starts with the midnight shift Saturday and concludes with the PM shift Sunday.
Surely you can run R32's on the G. But you still have the same problem after 8 PM. Put ins of 6 or 8 car consits from where? None on the V, you'd have to spot some off the R, cut unneded cars off, and change signs too. There are no 6 or 8 car R32 conductors boards out in Queens, they would be needed all over Queens in case of a reroute for any reason, pluw the Brooklyn G riders would bitch about the those old R32's running on the line.
6 car service on the G when it's running to Continental is unnecessary. It's rush hour patronage which demands the longer trains.
I think they should run full length (8 R46 cars) trains on a 12 minute headway on the G weekdays from 7AM to 10PM between Smith/9th and Court Square. Although this increases the headway between trains, the trains would be twice as long, so they would be less crowded. Also, people wouldn't have to run down the platform to catch a train. They should also avoid having they G and V (as well as the R) running simultaneously between Queens Plaza and 71 Ave in the evenings by having the last V leave midtown Manhattan approximately 10 PM and the first G for 71 Ave leaving Court Square a few minutes later. This would avoid a jam-up that now frequently occurs at 71 Ave. They could then easily make two 4 car G's from some of the 8 car G's or V's for late night G service.
It may be possible V service might be eliminated, but not likely. That fate is decided once the Manhattan Bridge is in full swing. Rumor has it that Q trains may be running to 179 via Broadway and 63 Street. F train might return to 53 Street, or remain on 63 St. Maybe the V might remain as a rush hour only service.
I heard that also (here I think, so I don't know if it's fact or fantasy), but basically whether you call it a V or a Q, I don't believe you will ever go back to the G on Queens Blvd. They may or not call it a V, but both local services on Queens Blvd will most likely remain "Manhattan Services".
If the Q were routed through 63rd St and the F put back in 53rd, surely the Q would be the express and the F the Local. I doubt they'd sacrifice the great achievement of this service pattern - both local and express to 53rd Street.
True. Either way, all four QB lines will continue to Manhattan.
If the rumor originated on Subtalk, it does not even qualify as a such unless the poster is a TA employee who put it there. And even then I would give it little credence.
Of course, anything is theoretically possible.
I doubt it, because while Broadway is already a full service, with 57/7th Av station being on the route to Queens one way or the other, eliminating the V would turn the 57/6th station back into a terminal and eliminate one-seat access from the upper East Side to the 6th Av corridor. That makes absolutely no sense.
I should clarify: My remarks address the effects of eliminating the V and shifting the F back to 53rd Street.
Here's a tidbid http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/09/nyregion/09TUNN.html that u don't wanna miss,
"Transit officials say they don't plan to move it anywhere, and insist that they are making converts"
This means that V will be residing in QB for quite awhile.
f course you realize one of the article's premises was wrong. Queens Blvd. gained a new local. It did not lose an express.
I've got two additional nits:
1. The reporter was at 71st Avenue at 9 AM, which is after the peak hour. Of course the trains are going to be less than face-plastered-to-the-window crowded.
2. The data cited was from March. It's now mid-September. Couldn't someone have come up with something more recent?
David
The article was written in July, so asking him for Sept data is a bit unfair. But he could have tried to offer something more recent than March.
Oh, right. I saw the July date, but it didn't register in my head!
However, June data might have been nice, or even May...
David
3. Of course a local isn't going to be terribly crowded at the first stop on a line with frequent express service where most passengers aren't going to local stops. It would make more sense to look at the crowding situation after passengers coming from local stops have boarded, say at Queens Plaza. For the same reason, interviewing passengers at Roosevelt without also interviewing passengers at local stations won't yield a complete picture.
Link to the following story
SUBWAY PANIC MAKES TA WORKER A TURBAN LEGEND
Sun Sep 15, 3:07 AM ET
By JOE McGURK and PHILIP MESSING
A turbaned man spotted climbing out of a subway maintenance hatch yesterday caused a terror scare after witnesses assumed he was up to no good.
But after two hours of panic, cops determined he was just a legitimate Transit Authority worker who happens to be a Sikh.
Before authorities figured it out, they roped off a section of Battery Park, delayed some 9/11 memorial events and brought the 4, 5 and 6 trains to a halt.
NYPD detectives and bomb-squad units combed the area for possible terrorism.
It turned out the turban-wearing New Jersey man was just doing the job he does every day: climbing into the small hole in the sidewalk to inspect the subway power substation.
"It went too far. There are a lot of turban-wearing men in this city, and it shouldn't have gone this far," said Gurzev Singh, the 16-year Metropolitan Transportation Authority ( news - external web site) worker.
Singh, 51, said he finished his midnight-to-8 a.m. shift and climbed out of the hatch at Bridge and State streets and headed home to Parsippany, N.J. He wasn't in his uniform, he said.
Cops said a maintenance worker in an office building at One Battery Park Plaza on State Street saw Singh and alerted security guards at the nearby federal bankruptcy court and American Museum of the American Indian that he was "suspicious."
Guillermo Vargas, a security guard there, said cops were notified - although they routinely see MTA authorities using the same hatch. He said it was the right thing to do, "as you can't be too careful these days."
NYPD traced the license plate that the jumpy maintenance worker saw and quickly tracked down Singh. They confirmed with the MTA that he was supposed to be in the hatch.
But at the same time, NYPD was down in the dark stairwell where they found a box and treated it as if it were a bomb.
They immediately closed the area and the subways. Police said they regretted the misunderstanding, but added that it was understandable since people are on edge since Sept. 11.
"The guy was coming up a ladder out of subway grating with a turban on his head. What would you think?" one cop said.
"I'm a little bit upset, but they were doing their job," Singh said. "There's nothing wrong with that. But people think every turban guy is a terrorist. It doesn't look good for my community."
Singh said he never before was mistaken for a terrorist or faced racial hostility, even when he worked on the subways at the World Trade Center after the terrorist attacks.
Singh said he won't stop wearing his turban - taking it off only to wear his bright-blue TA hard hat underground.
A few hours after the cops let people use the park again, another MTA worker - without a turban - who was unaware of the terror scare climbed down into the same hatch. Nobody looked twice.
This makes me laugh and cringe at the same time.
Laughing at the foolishness/gullibility/ignorance or whatever you'd like to call it around here in NYC and I guess, the entire US.
Cringing of how the terrorists have won and have taken away our common sense.
It is ridiculous to see us acting like this. If we let this happen to much, we will be our own destruction!
You're right.
Now, it probably would behoove the employee to wear his uniform while on duty. He could wear his turban and his MTA work clothes with photo ID as he exitedto the street.
The same would be true of anyone, regardless of race, creed, gender etc. If you're in a restricted area you should be wearing your uniform and a photo ID card.
Not if you a white male age 25 to 48. Nobody suspects us, no matter what activities we might be up to.
The presence or absence of facial hair however can also be a determining factor, depending on what restricted areas you are in.
It is ridiculous to see us acting like this. If we let this happen to much, we will be our own destruction!
It's more likely that fear of offending the pc police would result in someone's overlooking a suspisious act. That would lead to actual destruction. Not in the figurative, and unlikely sense in which you use the word, but in the real meaning of the word.
Thank you for that wonderful dose of idiotic xenophobia, Alan. Right up to par, buddy. You'll be a Grand Dragon in no time...
I guess you haven't been keeping up with current events. Terrorists in the mideast have found out that not wearing keffiyeh or traditional clothing makes them less conspicuous.
The MTA worker should have been wearing his uniform and photo ID while in or near a restricted area, though. Hopefully he'll do that in future - it would help avoid the problem.
When he was spotted, he had just went off-duly. He was climbing an electrical sub-station, leaving work and going home.
"When he was spotted, he had just went off-duly. He was climbing an electrical sub-station, leaving work and going home."
Would you care to show me any NYCT facility where employees report to or clear from, where their time clock is located & their locker is located and where they enter or leave via a manhole? In over 20 years of TA service, I've been in several substations and facilities from several othre divisions in the NYCT Dept. of Subways. I have NEVER seen such a location. Please enlighten me?
I see it all the time, wake up and smell the coffee.
You see it every day? Where?
You can post it twice or you can post it 20 times. Give me one location where employees enter or exit through a manhole to punch in and change their cloths. When you do that we'll tallk about who should wake up and smell what? Until then, it's clear who's sniffing what. For once - back up your statements with facts.
I see it all the time, wake up and smell the coffee.
With all the twists this thread has taken and with it's many subthreads, I was just wondering if i missed your reply to my question. You said you see subway workers reporting and clearing from manholes every day and that i should wake up and smell the coffee. I asked you to give me one such location.
Are you sure that's coffee we're talking about. I smell a lot of BULLSHIT in your statement.
Again - where is one such work location - any division in the department of subways. Time to put up or shut up.
TD, looks like Subway Surf can't put up, so he shut up.
One question: Did the cops in this incident bother to check out the manhole, or was that withheld from the media? A TA worker emerging from a manhole, especially one that's not surrounded by railings or has no indication that legimate work is being performed is going to arouse suspicions, especially in the post 9-11 world while wearing a turban.
Dan, to be perfectly honest, I was on vacation and had no first-hand knowledge of the incident or its reprocussions. I will say that the Inspector general's office has made some 'suprise' visits to some TA facilities this week. They are, among other things, checking for proper identification of all employees while on duty.
>>>Again - where is one such work location - any division in the department of subways. Time to put up or shut up. <<<
I have stated many times before that I wil not rat out any TA employee on this board or anywhere else. The TA has enough rats on the payroll so that if they want to find out they can.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't want to put words in TD's mouth, but I thought he was asking for examples of places in the system where employees are supposed to clock in and out through a manhole.
Ron, I guess that you don't get any local newspapers where you are. 6 more 'innocent' men from the Buffalo area have been arrested. They were all born in NY State of yemini descent. One was a loan officer, one a car salesman - all had regular jobs. Most married and some with children. Their only crime? They look middle eastern - oh, and yes, last year they attended an al-queda terrorist training camp and were addressed by Osama bin Laden just before 9/11. As far as I'm concerned - better safe than sorry.
BTW - people who work for the NYCT DO NOT punch out in a manhole and go home. Tere are no lockers in a manhole. There are no time clocks in a manhole - PERIOD. If this person came out of a manhole and did not have his safety vest on and did not have his ID card prominantly displayed, he was in violation of TA rules & regulations. The person who notified the police, did exactly what any correct thinking US citizen should do.
After that Buffalo arrest, it's OK and even necessary to suspect just about everyone who claims to be a Middle eastern Muslim. Political correctness must take a backseat to national survival. I was alarmed at how many people criticized the police for their prudent actions last Friday in Florida. In some cases, racial profiling is OK.
You really mean that? Everyone who resembles a Muslim is an automatic suspect?
How does that kind of prejudice help our national survival?
How does that kind of prejudice help our national survival?
It exposes terrorists hiding within "mainstream" Muslim-American communities. A willingness to question all Muslim's associations with terrorist organizations isn't "prejudice". It's vigilance. To assume all Muslims MUST be associated with terrorism is prejudice.
If we learned nothing from the McCarthyism of the 1950's, it is that the REAL spys are never the ones we suspect. Believe it or not the NSA had intercepted messages from Russia and had a list of the REAL spies, including the real man who gave the Russians most of the bomb information. The only thing was that they couldn't reveal this information because then the Russians would know they could break their codes. W/o the sceret evidence they main spy guy was able to get away scott free. They even had evidence that Mr. Rosenburg was not of very much inportance and that Mrx. Rosenburg was totally innoscent, but they had to sit by as both were executed.
In the end MacCarthy didn't find a single REAL communist spy. The moral of the story is that if you go after what seems "obvious" you will only end up catching the innoscent.
In the end MacCarthy didn't find a single REAL communist spy. The moral of the story is that if you go after what seems "obvious" you will only end up catching the innoscent.
McCarthy was a moron. But many anti-communist crusaders were eventually proven correct in later years. If only Nixon lived long enough to see that his position on Alger Hiss was publically vindicated. McCarthyism is a prime example of proper vigilance implimented in the wrong way.
Really? Which crusaders were "proven right," and in which court?
I think you need to review your history. It doesn't sound like you paid attention in class.
Jersey Mike's post was very very insightful.
I saw the story on PBS's NOVA focusing on the code breaking. They even had a video taken in the 1980's of the main spy son of a bitch living in the UK explaining why he gave the bomb scerets to the Russians. One of those "If both sides had it there would be peace" rationalizations. It made me mad as hell that so many lives were ruined and the guilty parties got away scott free to live out their lives. The FBI even took him in for interrogation, but since they coudln't reveal the sceret evidence there was nothing the FBI could hold him on. After he was releasde he packed off his family to Canada and then the UK where he died of old age.
One of the more ironic parts of the story was that the code breaking unit's vice director was infact a Russian spy himself and not only ruined the intelligence source by reporting back to Moscow, but saw when his own code name was decoded and I think escaped as well.
You had better believe that if the NSA was tapping into bin Laden's communications network right this minute they sure as hell woudln't make any overt moves with the information they got unless it was directly regarding an attack. A source like that can only really be used once before your enemy smarts up so you need to save your source for the biggest payoff.
I agree the spying you mention was heinous.
Understand, though, that without this treachery, the Russians would have been delayed by no more than 5-7 years before they got the bomb.
That doesn't excuse it, of course. Execution would have been an appropriate punishment.
I lived through all of this aftermath being born in 1954. The Cold War, communications intercepts, U-2 and Francis Gary Powers, Radio Free Europe, fall of the Berlin Wall and so much more. Free society means Bill of Rights, able to travel and a system of justice unequaled in the world. Execution just doesn't cut it anymore...just look at the WTC conspirators. Rooskies had it right...whack em off without notice. Like a free Atlantic Ocean trip aboard a C-130.....out the door.
NYCTA moves 4.2 million passengers a day keping the city alive. I e-mailed a vendor of identification materiel because they said they did NOT need documentation from be because I was not a law enforcement officer. Big mistake....one with false ID can do so much more harm in TA than one phoney cop. Our observance of personal freedom is interfering with our security ...what I cannot remember is the Sunday sermon quoting Augustus Caeser about cooperation and surrendering rights for the benefit of one dictator. CI Peter
I understand wher you're coming from.
I thought you carry 4.7 millio a day, closer to 5 now...
Re-read my post, then review the recently declassified Venona decrypts, along with KGB files released after the Soviet collapse of 1991. They basically support many of the assertions that communists attempted to infiltrate government, Hollywood, the education system, the labor movement and the civil rights movement. Their successes were few and far between, but that's not the point.
I'm not defending McCarthy or his compatriots. In fact his actions may have been helpful to the communist cause by publically discrediting those who were attempting to expose them. I can imagine Stalin laughing with glee watching that bafoon on American television.
Buffoon indeed. Well, he eventually got what was coming to him.
>>> I can imagine Stalin laughing with glee watching that bafoon on American television. <<<
Calling Joe McCarthy a "buffoon" trivializes the damage he did to American society. One has to wonder how much his rhetoric contributed to the view of communism as an all powerful monolithic structure and the "domino" theory which led to our involvement in Viet Nam.
Tom
JoeMcCarthy did hurt us a lot. But a lot of people contributed to the domino theory. To say that Kennedy's Best and Brightest all followed Joe's lead is to seriously overestimate his reach.
Vietnam was a team decision, and lots of people shared the blame.
>>> Vietnam was a team decision, and lots of people shared the blame. <<<
Of course Viet Nam was a team decision, but the team was influenced by their surroundings. In the United States in the ‘50s, people were afraid to admit that they saw anything beneficial in any communist society, therefore no one would mention what a friend of the United States Ho Chi Minh had been during WWII, and what a strong nationalist he had been since the ‘20s. Instead he was considered a tool of Stalin, carrying out Stalin's orders. Remember, those who had correctly told the nation that Chiang Kei-Shek did not have enough support of the people to stop the Chinese Communists were called communists themselves. It was better to say the correct thing than the truth. No one would talk about their experiences with the CP in the ‘30s. Even those who fought in Spain were no longer anti fascist heros, but suspected "fellow travelers" who could not be trusted. This left only one view to be presented to the policy makers in Washington; that the Communists were bent on world domination at any cost, and anyone receiving communist support must be opposed. Thus the domino theory.
Tom
I agree with what you've said. Also, Ho Chi Minh was not really a Communist. He adopted that model of governance, but had we been more intelligent about it, things might have been different.
But McCarthy was not the leader here. Heas in front of the cameras, but far more influential people were in the background.
Thank you Old Tom for spitting out the truth from a pair of Ma Deuce BUT the world as we know it does not remember. Ho Chi Minh received aid from OSS towards the close of WW2 until the French balked. Like the rest of SouthEast Asia, Japanese military forces were contracted for another two years to maintain stability until France and Holland (Nederlundes) had enough stregnth to regain control. Great Britain kicked the Japanese out of India, Burma and Singapore.
When WW1 ended and a sixty thousand word document was signed by the participants, China declined because Germanys territories in China became Japanese possesions.. Chiang Kei-Shek was an aspiring CP leader that 'blew the bank' upon the fall of the last emperor.
Five hours to duty....stange smell in apartment was #35 elbow macaroni incenerating upon stove. CI Peter
"In the United States in the ‘50s, people were afraid to admit that they saw anything beneficial in any communist society" Sounds very much like today's political correctness.
Mike,
Very good posting, you bring up a horrific fact that is hardly ever faced up to by the hard right and McCarthy apologists; that Mrs. Rosenberg was excuted despite being INNOCENT. Her husband was a bit player who also paid with his life. Were his acts dispicable? Yes! Was executing him just? I would say in no uncertain terms, NO! Too often, those in high places go for headlines rather than solving the problems they are charged with solving. As you said, the higher up in the plot that cost the Rosenberg's their lives was never punished. Sort of like today, the drug king pins who make millions live in luxury, while the poor addicts on the street get life sentences for trying to support their habits by selling small amounts of drugs. Amazing.
She was innoscent, the NSA has PROOF she was innoscent, but they didn't want to ruin their intelligence source. Another irony was that the intelligence source had ALREADY been compromised by the vice director of the code cracking unit who was a Russian mole. So in reality Mrs Rosenburg died for no reason what so ever.
Trying to stop a new terrorist attack within this country is like playing Wack-a-mole. Just like the war on drugs it will just be a gigantic waste of resources. We need to attack the root cause which is poverty, mideast non-peace, a lack of non-bias information and education in the region and religious fundamentalism.
Mike,
You have included MUCH wisdom in that post. You hit the nail on the head, unfortunately, those in power often prefer to the treat symptoms rather than cure the disease. It's much easier to arrest (and spend billions to build/operate prisons) poor (mostly minority) people who are low level operatives (often addicts themselves, simply trying to support their habit) than to deal with well financed king pins who are the driving force behind the problem. The drmatic arrest allows them to go on the six o'clock news with a press confrence to show a dozen people on a daisy chain being lead to jail; they don't show the king-pin sending out the next two dozen street dealers to take the place of the ones that just got arrested. Net result, the king-pin is still in business, the drugs are still being sold. All the money that went into the bust (not to mention all the money that will be spent on the prosecution and incarceration) accomplished........" (Fill in the blank).
But, as you said, to address real issues like poverty (or more accurately, real oppurtunity for those stuck in poverty) and lack of treatment to those who seek it ismuch harder to do. And it doesn't make for nice sound bites on the six o'clock news; it takes a real effort that takes years to achieve results, and the results come slowly, no dramatic press conference.
It feels like essentially the same issues that get broguht up when we ask why nobody ever wants to build new transit lines. Rationality takes a back seat to politics and uninformed perception.
You are on the money again, the issue is really very simple, short sightedness! This is seen over and over again, in many areas.
You see it with corporations when they worry about next quarters earnings as opposed to what is good for the long term health of the company, you saw it with the MTA in 70's when they defered virtually all maintence to save cash (I guess they didn't have the cash, but that is really the same problem only manifested by the politicos), we have quite a few pictures on this website of what happened to the subway as a result of that!
It exposes terrorists hiding within "mainstream" Muslim-American communities.
It has been said that the local Muslim community tipped off the FBI about the men recently arrested in Buffalo.
Indeed. So a group of loyal Americans, who happen to subscribe to Islam as their faith, took steps to uphold the Constitution and protect all of us (and themselves).
It has been said that the local Muslim community tipped off the FBI about the men recently arrested in Buffalo.
One man. Not a community.
No, you're wrong. It was more than one man, and the FBI took pains to acknowledge that.
If you're going to be a bigot, at least be honest about it. You lose fewer points with the rest of us that way.
The FBI acted on the tip of one local man. At least that's what I read in 2 newspapers. Other evidence was gathered by the FBI after the tip was made.
So would it be OK to associate all fundamentalist Christian groups with right wing terrorism (John Birch Society, KKK, Aryan Brotherhood), or orthodox Jews with Jewish Defense Group (racist group which wants to remove all blacks from New York)?
Where do you draw the line?
"Jewish Defense Group (racist group which wants to remove all blacks from New York)?"
Ron, before you go into your anti-semetic diatribe, where did the JDL ever make any statements related to ridding any city of blacks? Care to cite any verifyable sources?
"Ron, before you go into your anti-semetic diatribe, where did the JDL ever make any statements related to ridding any city of blacks? Care to cite any verifyable sources? "
First, I'm not talking about JDL, but you woyldn't know that (so I'm teaching you now). I don't like JDL either, but this group is worse.
The JDG (or JDO, as it is also called) broadcast live on Queens Public Access television and advocated on its broadcasts, openly, whgich I happened to see, that blacks should be evicted from NY. "Imagine an All-White NY" the host said.
Joseph Goebbels couldn't have done it any better.
Do you have a verifyable source for the allegations? Perhaps a website or a newsletter? It's not that I don't believe you but..........................
Yes, I do. Call Time-Warner Cable in Queens and ask them who has been using Public Access TV studio time between 1998-2000. They should have records of that. I don't remember the channel number for this, though.
The JDO even got into a little trouble. They solicited for money on-air, then were told not to. I don't know why, but the host of the show complained about it on the air.
I watched two episodes of this, and decided not to tune in anymore. I didn't want to ruin my mother-in-law's carpet with my vomitus.
Lrt's get it straight, Ron. We've already established that it's not the JDL. In one of your posts it was the JDG, now it's the JDO. Which is it?
Back in the 1970s I had a friend who began an campus organization called the RAC, Rational Action Coalition. They had a news letter, and stationary ond one lone member. Sounds like the JDO or JDG is just one guy who hides behind an organization.
BTW: What particular acts of terrorism has this group committed?
They have used both names - why not? It's not like they have any integrity.
Let's get it straight, Ron. We've already established that it's not the JDL. In one of your posts it was the JDG, now it's the JDO. Which is it?
Back in the 1970s I had a friend who began an campus organization called the RAC, Rational Action Coalition. They had a news letter, and stationary ond one lone member. Sounds like the JDO or JDG is just one guy who hides behind an organization.
BTW: What particular acts of terrorism has this group committed?
Ron in Bayside is talking about JTF. I think the website is JTF.org.(The web address sits on the bottom of the screen for the length of the program). Like almost everyone in Queens, I've seen the TV show on cable access, even though I'm not Jewish. Most Jews in Queens seem to be aware of the program. Some know it by name, while others simply know "the guy with the hat, sunglasses, and bad toupee"(The host disguises himself for obvious reasons).
Ron makes it sound like this group is a legitimate, well-organized Jewish organization. It's not. It's just some guy who sits in front of a camera for 30 minutes, and goes off on everything and everyone from Hillary Clinton, to "Schmuck Schumer", to gays, Blacks, Muslims, or anyone on his hit list for the episode.
The show is a cross between Rush Limbaugh and Piper's Pit from WWF. It's extremely over-the-top. It ends with the host saying, "we can't ask you for money, we can only tell you to write to the address on the screen".
Several local newspapers have done stories on the host over the years, when there is nothing else to write about. There's definitely a red flag next to this guy's name on the FBI's list. Once you've seen a few episodes, you'll burn out on the program.
I never said they were legitimate. They're not (no hate group, regardless of how large or small, is "legitimate" in my eyes.).
I hope this guy realy is by himself, but I tend to doubt it. Somebody's paying his rent and he's obviously eating. I don't doubt he has sympathizers.
And the show was very disgusting. But it's not very far from what JDL preaches. Meir Kahane dreamed of violence as a solution to anti-Semitism, and, perhaps fittingly, died a violent death. As the old saying goes, under those circumstances you don't die a hero. You just die.
Someone is indeed paying his rent. I remember reading a newspaper story about the guy. He holds a day job, which is one of the reasons why he disguises himself. He's not by himself, but he probably has about 3 or 4 followers.
I'm glad he doesn't have a lot of followers. He's a real scumbag.
I had the "pleasure" of interviewing Meir Kahane several times on WBAI back around 1970. During one of his "visits" we got a bomb scare called in ... Meir bolted out of the place faster than you can say, "listener sponsored radio" and the cops came down and cleared out the rest of us. Meir was a hateful little man, sorta like a Curtis Sleezewa on steroids. People often kill themselves with such loads of bile coursing their veins. When he got elected over in Israel, I was quite concerned having spent time with him. Not someone I admired.
Now, with the way things are going over there, I sorta understand where he was coming from but at the same time wish that both sides would muzzle their Kahanes and find some way out of the current stalemate.
Holy Mackarel BatMan.....SelkirkTMO was on Pacifica Radio/WBAI just down the block from me. Another associate of Lynn Samuels. Gimme Brother Stair on HF radio. Better yet, gimme 'J.R. Bob Dobbs.' CI Peter.......HF Forever!
Unca Selkirk has reclined into his sacred La-Z-Boy and is prepared to dispense slack. Whoops, my pipe went out. Yeah, I was a proud minyan of the Pacifica Foundation, back in the brownstone on 39th St above the Vera Institute of Justice, prior to the move to the old church. An interesting place amidst the likes of Bob Fass, Steve Post and the hundred maniacs. Got better though. :)
Got better like? KIPM Outer Limits...Illuminati Prima Materia on 6925Kc USB? CI peter
Well, having moved upstate, I've seen a number of Black helicopters. Harrison Ford's helicopter is blue. :)
Dunno what it is about living in "God's country" but as long as you stay away from the corn squeezin's, life is good. Kooks just don't fare very well around here.
Kooks just don't fare very well around here.
Sorry to hear that, Kevin. I thought you were doing OK. :)
Heh. El slappo. :)
You wouldn't BELIEVE what passes for "normal" upstate.
Cow Country!!!MOOOO!!!
Yeah, they've already warned me that I'm not permitted any cows or sheep up here, but we can have FOUR horses. Go figure. :)
Haven't forgotten about you, have the hip-waders on and duct tape and am trying to get through a lot of mail on this end ... you'll hear from me later. Hanging out here while downloading more trojans and viruses to play with in the lab ... MOO!
kay!!! lookin' forward...
Kevin, I understand that those black helicopters are armed with air cannons that fire wooden skee-balls at the rate of 30 per minute.
And who do you think maintains those Skee Ball projectors? BTW: it is hard to get the wooden composition Skee Balls....suckers come now in black plastic and look like giant golf balls.....opto sensors just do not work with 'forever balls.' CI Peter
Dang! That'd almost make it worthwhile spotting them. We're not too far away from Stratton Air Base, so at least I know they're on OUR side. It's the BLUE helicopters *I* need to worry about. If ya ever make it out this way, I'll show ya one up close and personal in the company facility here. :)
Ok unca Selkirk, I think I have it figured what you were trying to say. I must say though that the water up there must be responsible for a lot of wierd things happening up your way. BTW, you are voting for Pataki, aren't you?
Kevin refers to the governor as Paturkey. 'Nuff said.
Nope ... Paturkey is *IN* ... therefore he's out. I've proudly supported H Carl McCall for a long time. Y'see, my own view towards politicos is that they're like diapers on the little one. If you don't change them regularly, they start to stink. :)
Hey Selkirk, could you translate that for me? If I have to make that make sense I have to plead that I just got off the banana boat.
Any person or group that preaches hate and terrorism needs to be purged from the planet. Meir Kehane was no different. Sadly, another wrong-thinking limp-wristed liberal got his (terrorist) killer off - even though he killed an innocent along the way
Believe it or not, I agree. Just wish there were enough wrenches for all the loose wingnuts of all varieties ... :)
Not all "liberals" are limp-wristed. Assuming that what you mean by "limp-wristed" is that liberals are homosexuals who are afraid of violence, I am going to list some super left wing people and groups who are/were most definately NOT limp-wristed nor afraid of using violence when they felt it was justified.
The IRA is VERY liberal, and I wouldn't really call them "limp-wristed".
Mao Tse-Tung and Lenin were liberals, and they weren't afraid of violence, were they?
Before you jump all over me, Roosevelt was a liberal, and not limp-wristed. Neither was Kennedy. Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were certainly liberals, as well.
I WAS going to put Malcolm X in there with Mao and Lenin, because he wasn't limp-wristed either, however, I didn't feel like putting someone up there who you could call an Anti-Semitic Bigot, or something silly like that.
Sure, I guess this all makes me "hopelessly liberal", but at least I've proven that liberals aren't by definition "limp-wristed".
Now, you want limp-wristed?
Gary Bauer is completely, utterly, and hopelessly conservative, and if that little weasel isn't limp wristed I don't know who is.
More "limp-wristed" conservatives:
Rush Limbaugh: you KNOW that big loudmouth would cry like a baby if someone stepped on his foot and punched him in the mouth.
William F. Buckley: I rest my case.
I consider myself a liberal, also but I'm "limp wristed" enough to fear Al Qaida. We must unite with moderate muslims and others to eliminate the Al Qaida cancer from Planet Earth once and for all.
You see there are liberals out there who know what's what. Please inform J Train Tony as soon as possible. He needs a wake up call.
Yo - Tony - Where did you get any idea that I was referring to homosexuals, bi-sexuals, hetrosexuals or anti-sexuals? Limp wristed as in unwilling to defend their nation - huh tony? Wadda ya think, tony?
Well, no problem, if you say so...
I thought you were refering to that old stereotype of the homosexual...you know, arm upright, with the hand hanging limp from the wrist.
And, I DID know you were using it to mean someone unwilling to defend their nation..but I would use it to mean someone who is unwilling to defend their ideals, rather than just a country. If someone stood up AGAINST their country, like some Germans did in World war 2, and paid with their lives...would you consider them traitors or heroes? I'm sure the majority of patriotic Germans referred to them as "limp-wristed" liberals, whaddya think, Train Dude? :)
Attention in the Barn: J-Train Tony has a message at the car desk!
I never stay up this late because my yard assignment requires me to be 'bright eyed and bushy tailed.' I had hoped to get some postings and/or e-mail for my crew.....we started TA on September 17th and what I received was primarily directed towards me. I did try...we maintain what is left of the #5 Redbird fleet. So let us get down to business and history.
I grew up on the Upper East Side and Yorkville. Isch kleine Deustche gesprekken...hinden kopf mach schnell!!! So, everyone was either Irish or German. When the War started in 1938, New York City Germans were German....up until the breakout of WW1, there was no Germany. During the Depression, a few NYC Germans volunteered to fight the Bolsheviks in Spain. When WW2 broke out in Europe in 1938, some NYC Germans went back to serve their nation. In 1942, NYC Germans volunteered for U.S. military duty to serve their nation. Some Germans in Germany risked their lives and paid with their lives to preserve human life. Others died as a result of the comission of criminal acts. Italiens and Japonese were nmot so lucky as to be able to make a decision.. New Japonese/Nisei survived the harships of war.our parents had to struggle through it. CI Peter
First - to clarify - limp-wristed as in unable to take up arms for one's country. Sorry about the confusion.
Second - I love political discussions even if they become contentious. I think it's healthy to test your ability to defend your views. However, despite the fact that I was trained to be a history/economics teacher, I despise it whan people resort to tired old arguments about the nazis of 70 years ago or Ben Franklin's philosophies on liberty. Neither are relevent today. You can speak all you want of Franklin's views on individual's rights but Franklin did not have to consider the damage the one individual can due with a suitcase sized nuclear device or a vial of plague.
Let's keep our arguments relevent.
I despise it whan people resort to tired old arguments about the nazis of 70 years ago or Ben Franklin's philosophies on liberty. Neither are relevent today. You can speak all you want of Franklin's views on individual's rights but Franklin did not have to consider the damage the one individual can due with a suitcase sized nuclear device or a vial of plague.
Let's keep our arguments relevent.
There may not have always been nuclear weapons, but terrorism is as old as the hills. So are religious zealotry, violence, and politcal subversion. The world Benjamin Franklin lived in was a very dangerous place too. And indeed in the early years of the republic, there were some considerable internal challenges to the regime.
Democracy and civil liberties are not always convenient. They're a risk and they always have been. But I think they have stood the test of time, far better than the authoritarianism that characterizes the world of our enemies.
--Andrew
No----the patriotic Germans considered them to be the rotten traitors that they were. However, keep one thing in mind. During World War II, there wasn't one case of Japanese-American treachery, hardly any disloyalty on the part of Italians here at home and very few instances of German shenanigans. I don't think that is true right now with a lot of Muslims in this country. Sorry to say it, I wish I didn't have to say it, but I just don't a lot of them right now.
Well, no problem, if you say so...
I thought you were refering to that old stereotype of the homosexual...you know, arm upright, with the hand hanging limp from the wrist.
And, I DID know you were using it to mean someone unwilling to defend their nation..but I would use it to mean someone who is unwilling to defend their ideals, rather than just a country. If someone stood up AGAINST their country, like some Germans did in World War 2, and paid with their lives...would you consider them traitors or heroes? I'm sure the majority of patriotic Germans referred to them as "limp-wristed" liberals, whaddya think, Train Dude? :)
Limp wristed Liberals? Try Donahue on CSNBC, the young Cuomo, Tom Daschle, Al Gore, Torricelli the crook, and his stupid colleague Corzine. As for Conservatives, you seem to conveniently forget Reagan, Schultz, Schwartzkopf, Bruce Willis, Clint Eastwood, Chuck Norris, Charleton Heston, Dwight Eisenhower, etc, etc. You knew what Dude was trying to say. He wasn't castigating you as an individual but maybe you should jog your memory back to the Gulf War. Despite the UN voting overwhelmingly for action to liberate Kuwait most Democrats in the Senate voted NO on going to war. The resolution passed around 54-46. If that isn't limp wristed I don/t know what is.
And you addressed this post to me for exactly what reason, Ron? Seems to me that you've glossed over every point I've made that you could not refute. If you don't want to talk seriously, why talk at all. Let's just end this thread.
Please give credit where it's due; it was LuchAAA who added your handle to the title, Steve.
You're the master glosser, Train Dude. I have a long way to go before I'd pretend to do it as well as you.
Yes ron, I'll be the master glosser while we all know that you are the master baiter.
(Please don't correct the spelling, ron. It's spelled as it was iontended to be.)
Remind me not to get on your bad side Dude, but I think the iontended was not meant that way. BTW, are you going to be in New York between October 11-16? I will be in town and I still owe you that drink or hot dog or pizza or something.
Fred, I'll likely be in NYC 11th & 12th. Another vacation begins the 13th when my bike will be pointed towards Bike Week in Daytona. But please keep that between us. Mrs. Train Dude doesn't know yet.
Break it to her gently. As for the 11th and 12th, if you'll E-Mail me as to where we can meet at your convenience we can railfan, shoot the breeze, denounce liberals, or just go and raise some hell. Keep me informed---and, I believe, you will be in good stead with your Mrs. Just promise her that you will spend a nice weekend with her when you get back and you will have it made.
Listen Train Dude, simply tell your missus that you are the breadwinner of the household, you work extremely hard for the family; and that if you want to go on a small bike trip then you are absolutely entitled to do it!
After you tell her this, you can stay for a few days at my place.
Thanks but Mrs. Train Dude is also a bread winner but I thank you for the offer.
vomitus et hominem
..on 1277.
So would it be OK to associate all fundamentalist Christian groups with right wing terrorism (John Birch Society, KKK, Aryan Brotherhood), or orthodox Jews with Jewish Defense Group (racist group which wants to remove all blacks from New York)?
Where do you draw the line?
1. Mainstream Jews and Christians don't attempt to "justify" or "rationalize" the bizarre and extreme positions held by these fringe groups.
2. The KKK and the JDL have no well financed international organization dedicated to America's destruction to call upon. Neither have flown planes into American skyscrapers, attacked our Navy or blown up one of our overseas embassies.
There's your line.
So Timothy McVeigh didn't really blow up the federal building? And the Aryan Brotherhood didn't have a multi-acre compound to train racists, that the ADL won in a lawsuit?
I have news for you. Mainstream Muslims in America don't justify fringe positions either. You also don't see the kind of ignoranbce and poverty in America that you see in Africa and Asia, which feeds the extremists.
Your prejudice and hatred is at least as dangerous as Al Qaeda's in one important respect: you don't acknowledge it. That means if Al Qaeda attacks an American, we know what's going on, and we've been able to figure out where to send the jet bombers. I have no problem with that. Blow 'em up right at their training camp.
If someone who posts like you do surrenders to emotional desire amnd carjacks a Muslim and then shoots him because he's a Muslim, we'll have a harder time tracking that down. And I for one wouldn't want to live around someone like that - a true coward.
Your philosophy seems to combine the worst anything for a dollar part of conservatism with the disgusting PC "ethic" of liberalism. Mc Veigh and the Aryan kooks did not have a multi billion dollar global network including state sponsors to back them up. Some judge scribbled his name on a piece of paper and the lethal drugs began flowing into McVeigh's worthless carcass. Amother judge whipped out his pen and a former neo-nazi compound became Jewish property. Al Qaida will not go down that easily. Many if not most Muslims always blame Israel for the homicide bombers who are being whipped up by the same billionare extremists who bankrolled the 9-11 attacks. If the billionaires would not have fanned the flames, a middle east peace would have been a simple matter and a safe, prosperous Palestinian state, including the Mosques on the Temple Mount would be a reality today. However, the Palestinians are now so hate crazed by the extremists that a couple of decades will now have to pass before this can happen. In the meantime Israel will have to take reasonable measures to protect herself and if you don't think Israel has the right to defend herself, you ARE anti semitic.
"So Timothy McVeigh didn't really blow up the federal building?"
You ask the wrong question, Ron. What you should ask is whether any American from the Christian right danced in the street and passed out candy when Timothy Mcveigh committed his particular act of terror.
Then ask yourself how thousands of (mainstream) Muslims around the world reacted to the World trade Center massacres.
You should ask if national news organs portrayed Timothy McVeigh as a hero or champion of the people.
Then ask yourself how Al-Jezeera portrayed the WTC attacks and continues to portray their Al-Queda 'heros'
What you shoud ask is if Timothy McVeigh acted within a relatively small group with little or no financial support.
Then ask yourself where al-Queda gets its financial support.
You can continue to fog the issue with comparrisons between Timothy McVeigh and Al-Queda. More limp wristed liberal rhetoric.
"You ask the wrong question, Ron. What you should ask is whether any American from the Christian right danced in the street and passed out candy when Timothy Mcveigh committed his particular act of terror."
Some did. And some did it quite openly. This is America, and you can do that. It's obnoxious, and I don't agreee with it, but it's also protected speech. Something you don't get in many other parts of the world.
"What you shoud ask is if Timothy McVeigh acted within a relatively small group with little or no financial support."
He had enough support to buy a truck load of fertilizer and blow it up. How much more do you need?
We could go back and forth forever on this one. Ask yourself this. If what you say is true, then how many other arrests were made related to this christian-right conspiracy? It seems the FBI and CIA hhad videotape identifying everyone that Mohamud Atta and his band of muslim heros had contact with for 30 days. Where was the same evidence about Timothy Mcveighs' terrorist cell? Is the FBI in on the Oklahoma City incident?
Personally I believe that the religion of Islam is more suceptable to fundimentalist ideologies and voilence than most other religious faiths and that yes mainstream (50% median) muslims do want to see us burn in the fires of hell.
Still, American citizens are American citizens, no matter what their beliefs and faiths. American citizens are equal as American citizens and when you take away the rights of one it hurts us all. The time to stop these "terrorists" was when they wanted to enter our country. We let them in and welcomed them as immigrants (or visitors) and now we must bare the burden of our past irresponsibility. We're a day late and a dollar short on this one. You may not like it, but to try to unscramble the egg will just endanger all of our freedoms.
Thank you Jersey Mike for words of wisdom. Despite all the flak you receive from all 'points of the compass,' this time you are truly correct. We have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights often tampered with to be adjusted for 'political correctness.' Our forefathers do not get the credit they truly deserve. They knew what might come about in the future and scholars still try to extrapolate and distort the written thoughts of eighteenth century minds just like those who try to make all passages in the Bible, which was originated thousands of years ago, completely apply to today (how about four Sundays in a row reading from 'Revalations' while law enforcement besieged the David Koresh compound.)
Immigrants are OUR background...we do have a tradition of making OUR home THEIR home...and a tragic error founded in tradition cost the loss of thousands of lives and hundreds of thousands their employment.
Here is the hard part: do we abandon our tradition of 'welcome' and engage a 'police state' or do we continue to welcome all and depend upon the Lords Graces for what is right? This is a 'tough call' Jersey Mike and could possibly change the very reason why we are a nation...a nation recognised as a haven of freedom and peace. CI Peter
I think that "Is Applicant from a Country that Regularily Holds "Death to America" Festivals?" (or something equivelent) would make a pretty good metric.
Between "evil" and "stupid" there is ths nice place called common sence.
Agreed...I rest my case....until such time our nation enters the situation presented by the motion picture 'Red Dawn.' I serve without obligation upon being called. This is my home, this is where I was born, this is where I live, this is my work and these are my friends along with those I love and care for. I WILL FIGHT. CI Peter
As far as I'm concerned, American Citizenship mean as much to most middle eastern muslims as does a library card. On 9/11, there were middle eastern (scumbags) in my own community who also danced in the street - even while living the American Dream in a middle-class suburb. You can't tell me that citizenship to them is anything more than a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card.
We had a Jordanian in downtown Albany who owned several pizza shops who also danced in the street when WTC came down. A couple of hours later, he was dancing in a jail cell and was eventually deported. I trust you let the authorities know who was dancing in your burgh?
The Constitution allows that. It's obnoxious behavior - but that's why the US is so much better a place to live than Saudi Arabia.
You consider dancing in the streets because terrorists killed over 2,800 people, destroyed buildings and disrupted our way of life, "obnoxious behavior"? I suppose you'd consider sodomy, "following too close". Come on mikey. Even you can be more rational than that. Ever hear of giving aid and comfort to the enemy?
"You consider dancing in the streets because terrorists killed over 2,800 people, destroyed buildings and disrupted our way of life, "obnoxious behavior"? "
Yes, and so would the Supreme Court (and the Supreme Court has made a number of rulings of this type.) - but it still wouldn't be illegal.
"I suppose you'd consider sodomy, "following too close". "
That's you're not an attorney. Consult with one who's done First Amendment cases and see what he/she tells you.
If you read an earlier post my me you now know why I have become very suspicious of Muslim Middle Easterners in general. I think many of them are not loyal and scumbag fits many of those to a tee. It is hard to have to admit you could becoming a little prejudiced but September 11 changed a lot of things in this country and from what I keep reading in the papers we still have a lot to be concerned about.
You ask the wrong question, Ron. What you should ask is whether any American from the Christian right danced in the street and passed out candy when Timothy Mcveigh committed his particular act of terror.
Bullseye!
So Timothy McVeigh didn't really blow up the federal building? And the Aryan Brotherhood didn't have a multi-acre compound to train racists, that the ADL won in a lawsuit?
McVeigh was a moron who didn't belong to any legitimately dangerous group. He blew up one insignificant government building.
I have news for you. Mainstream Muslims in America don't justify fringe positions either. You also don't see the kind of ignoranbce and poverty in America that you see in Africa and Asia, which feeds the extremists.
That's ridiculous. Muslim extremism is alive and well in America. Read a newspaper or watch the news.
Your prejudice and hatred is at least as dangerous as Al Qaeda's in one important respect: you don't acknowledge it. That means if Al Qaeda attacks an American, we know what's going on, and we've been able to figure out where to send the jet bombers. I have no problem with that. Blow 'em up right at their training camp.
I have no hatred or prejudice against any group for who they are or what faith they practice. I'd fight any attempt to persecute innocent Muslim Americans as I would any other demographic. It's not wrong to want to know where a person's loyalty to his/her country is.
If someone who posts like you do surrenders to emotional desire amnd carjacks a Muslim and then shoots him because he's a Muslim, we'll have a harder time tracking that down. And I for one wouldn't want to live around someone like that - a true coward.
This is an antiquated pre 9/11 mentality. We cannot restrain ourselves anymore because of what some moron might do. America's enemies are using America's freedoms against us. I don't want to commit national suicide just so I can maintain some moral high ground afterwards.
"McVeigh was a moron who didn't belong to any legitimately dangerous group. He blew up one insignificant government building. "
Would you like to be quoted on that? Preferably somewhere where the widows and widowers of hundreds of Secret Service and FBI agents, police officers, IRS and Social Security employees can read it? Oh, and put your home address and phone number down.
And then let's see how long it takes them to lynch you.
Your ignorant posts cast you as a poster boy for civics education.
Would you like to be quoted on that? Preferably somewhere where the widows and widowers of hundreds of Secret Service and FBI agents, police officers, IRS and Social Security employees can read it? Oh, and put your home address and phone number down.
And then let's see how long it takes them to lynch you.
Your ignorant posts cast you as a poster boy for civics education.
Spare me the ignorant bigot label. It doesn't frighten me. It's usually the last resort of an intellectually spent debator.
It's clear we have diametrically opposing viewpoints on this subject. Further wrangling would be pointless.
>>> America's enemies are using America's freedoms against us. <<<
Although that may be a true statement, it is not grounds to rescind the freedoms from Americans.
Tom
It's tough living in a country like ours. We have to respond to terror, but we can't stoop as low as the terrorists to do it.
I don't even think this has too much to do with profiling. I would think anybody climbing out of a manhole, even a red headed Irishman or a Hassidic person would raise suspicion climbing out of a manhole especially that close to Ground Zero!
Absolutely right, Jeffrey...
I agree that the TA worker in question was not following proper procedure - and said so. So the person who called police was prudent.
However, it was the lack of a uniform or ID that I objected to. There's nothing wrong with changing from a hard hat to a turban once you're out of the restricted area. Any connection of the turban per se with the crime is ridiculous and ignorant.
Put your liberalism to the test. You're on a plane leaving your local international airport. Shortly after take-off you see a man wearing middle-eastern dress walk to the cockpit and push the door open. Do you:
1) Assume that he's a sky marshall who happen to be of middle eastern descent?
2) Feel your ass-hole start to pucker with fear.
If you answered #1, then you are either a liar or hopelessly liberal.
Especially in this day and age, I still believe that my first rule of survival is correct: Br>Assume all unidentified fish are sharks!
Wrong question. I'm not a liberal. I'm educated and I'm reasonable, and I believe in the Constitution. Your posts fail on all three counts. You might actually feel more comfortable living in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, because there you'll find mirror images of yourself (as expressed through your posts). Different costume maybe, but same ignorant BS.
If I see anybody going into the cockpit not wearing a flight crew uniform with photo ID, I will be concerned. If I saw you do it, I'd call for help. I don't care how you're dressed.
On the other hand, if I'm on a Continental flight, and a Continental pilot wearing a turban or skullcap enters the cockpit, I'm fine with it. I know that, since there are bigots among the passengers, he's going to feel extra pressure to make the flight smooth and comfortable.
I agree...
Ron,
I agree with you more times than I disagree with you, so you must at least have some liberal views (based on the fact that I am a proud liberal) or have liberal views on some issues. I think you've been somewhat baited along the lines used by our former Senator Pothole, "My opponent (Bob Abrams?) is hopelessly liberal!" Nothing wrong with being a liberal, or having liberal views on given issues. That is one of the great things about our country, we can express our views and be proud of our views; I don't think anyone should be less than proud of their view on any issue. I base that on an the condition of the person having done at least minimal research or at least some honest reflection on the matter.
Your post is very well thought out. The key thing is the totality of the situation, if the person is wearing the appropriate uniform, his approaching the cockpit would not give rise to fear in me. You are very correct that the person will be under extra stress due to his headwear and passengers reacting in a hostile manner serves no purpose. The post 9/11 world presents many challenges to us all. We must not surrender our civil rights, but as with all rights, they come with responsibilites. The key to not surrendering our civil rights is to take our resonsiblities seriously. Arab or Muslim Americans should not come under automatic suspicion, but the (vast majority) of loyal responsible members of these communities do have a responsibilty to the country to turn in memebers of their community with hostile intenions. Today's NY Post has a good example. On page 6, there is a story about the young men arrested in upstate NY for suspicion of being a sleeper cell. The uncle of one of the men said "...If he's guilty, let him pay the price". In fact I believe these individuals came under suspicion because a memeber of the community reported suspicous behavior on their part.
I guess what I'm trying to say is we can have both our civil rights and security, IF we also take the responsibilities that come with those rights seriously.
Excellent post. Good logic.
I really am middle of the road. You'll find me "liberal" on the subject of civil rights, especially for people facing trial. Upon a fair and just arrival at a verdict, however, I'm likely to slam the cell door shut and throw away the key for violent crimes, and I see nothing wrong with sticking a needle in somebody's arm and executing them if they are truly guilty of a capital offense.
I fully support the campaign in Afghanistan. I hate the madrassas (the religious "schools" in Pakistan which preach hatred and violence) and encourage our government to prod Islamabad into doing something about them. They directly contribute to Pakistan's 60%+ illiteracy rate.
"There you go again..." we seem to agree here also. The problem is the difference between theory and reality. I fully agree with you in theory, but I fear the reality is very different.
My problem with the "needle in somebody's arm..." is that do we really know that the trail was fair and the verdit just? In this part of the country, you might. But how many cases have we read about, even in NY (the "bastion of liberalism") where people serving life terms are proven innocent (not getting off on a legal technicality, but acutally innocent) due to new evidence that was not available at the time of trial, such as DNA. Aside from that I've read about jurisdictions like Mississippi where in a capital case, the attorney appointed to defend an indigent defendant (there often is no public defenders office)is allowed a flat fee of $1,000. That's no typo, one thousand dollars, for everything, expert witnesses, invetigator's, you name it. Aside from the rare crusading, truely principled defense attorney (and even he/she has to eat and support his/her family), can you imagine what kind of defense that person will get for the grand! Until we find a way to fix that type of injustice, I don't think we can take the chance to kill an innocent person. I think one of the founding fathers said, I'd rather see one hundred guilty men go free than to convict one innocent man. We know our present Suprem Court doesn't share that point of view.
I also agree with your view of the religious fanatics in the middle east, they exploit the people and perpetuate hate in the name of religion. Amazing, all the worlds major religions, at their core, preach peace and tolerance (including Islam from what I've read; but I hear so much about jihad, I just don't know). Yet so many bloody conflicts are fought over religion. I guess the thinking is "I'm told to love my neighbor, I'll show my love for him by killing him to save his soul!" Very sad...........................
Indeed.
There are states where death cases have been placed in a moratorium, appropriately.
But some cases I'm not worried about. Timothy McVeigh, John Wayne Gacy, Robert "Mudman" Simon and so on...fine with me.
(Simon was killed by another inmate in NJ while on death row after Simon assaulted him. From a practical point of view, that inmate saved the taxpayers a lot of money. I can't condone what he did (though he was assaulted, and defended himself), but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. We make our choices in life.
[Feel your ass-hole start to pucker with fear.]
Actually, that happens whenever I'm riding on an R-68 :)
Clever, Doug, Clever
I'm afraid to ask why.
What's there to fear, anyway?
Feel your ass-hole start to pucker with fear.
Actually, that happens whenever I'm riding on an R-68
Why? Even if the Hippo derails, nothing much will happen given its maximum speed of 2 mph!
LOL!!! :)
Its easy to say that when you're a well dressed, proper talking white male age 30+.
Normally I wouldn't have a problem with your logic. If we arrested every arab in the country and summarily shot them the terrorist problem would probably go away. That's fine and dandy and I wouldn't have any problem with that, but the problem is what happens next? Sure its arabs now, but tomorrow some Subtalker could find themselves in jail for taking railfan photographs.
It is for my own freedoms that I defend the freedoms of others.
"...Sure its arabs now, but tomorrow some Subtalker could find themselves in jail for taking railfan photographs."
Hasn't that happened already? I thought we had a long thread on just that subject not too long ago.
Nobody has actually been arrested IFAIK.
"If we arrested every arab in the country and summarily shot them the terrorist problem would probably go away."
The Arab terrorist problem. You need to have some extra ammo belts for your M60, because then you have to line up and cut down every Muslim from Indonesia and Phillipines (recal Abu Sayyaf), and then shoot every Puerto Rican (remember the separatists there). Then you'll be machine gunning every Irish american (to make sure we don't harbor IRA scum here) followed by everyone who shaves his head (because he could be a Neo-Nazi skinhead).
Out of ammo yet? No? OK, press the trigger again and shoot fundamentalist Christians because we don't know which ones don't shoot obstetrician and burn crosses on people's lawns, and then shoot Jews because you don't know which ones are JDO scum and radical JDL people who advocate violence and don't want to take a chance.
And then let's shoot Italian and Russians because we're afraid they could be mobsters. Anybody who watches the Sopranos on HBO knows that.
Have we covered everybody yet? Who's left?
Are we done discussing this?
I could not have said it better!
I think Mike was being sarcastic to make this very point! Some people don't get the point of your position when you state it in plain English; you need to go to outlandish extremes to make your point.
Yes, he was being sarcastic.
Love it Ron.....save the M60 ammo for the M14/M21. You can be my spotter and SPEAK ENGLISH IN THE HOLE!!! The Constitution and the Bill of Rights that protects us also protects those who would do us harm. Surrendering our rights totally 'for the preservation of the State' means that we become slaves. You missed the members of the 'Greater East Asian Coprosperity Sphere.'
"Shortly after take-off you see a man wearing middle-eastern dress walk to the cockpit and push the door open."
I would be extremely disturbed no matter how he was dressed. Some militia extremist could be white, clean shaven, and wearing a business suit, and still be very dangerous.
The proper procedure is to knock and be admitted after the flight crew determines the person is allowed in. Anything else implies at a minimum gross negligence by the flight crew (or by the airline, if he easily forces or jimmies the door open).
Mr Glick is totally correct in his analysis of evil political correctness. If America is to survive, the evil doctrine of political correctness must be expunged from America.
I don't like political correctness (it's an oxymoron). But I'm not sure either of you really understand it.
I don't like political correctness (it's an oxymoron). But I'm not sure either of you really understand it.
There is no problem with Mr. Blair or my understanding of political correctness. Of course those who support it will try to mis-state the issue so as to confuse it.
One of the core concepts of pc thinking is that America is always the bad guy and its enemies are always the good guys. This is expecially the case when an enemy of the US is a foreigner or a member of a minority group. (The current debate over our situation with Iraq is another typical example of how this works). In these cases siding with America is likened to being a racist. In this case the pc thinker is relieved of the responsibility to argue facts, he merely has to yell "racist" and he will have the support of the like-minded pc chorus.
As for your claim of not liking political correctness, that's typical of extremists who try to cast themselves as moderates.
To an extremist, a moderate is just another extremist. You're normal, Alan, and the rest of us are extremists and un-American traitors, right?
It's an effective technique you have there - right out of Alfred Rosenberg's book.
No, to a moderate, an extremist is an extremist.
No, to a moderate, an extremist is an extremist. One who yells "racist" at every post with which he disagrees is an extremist.
It's an effective technique you have there - right out of Alfred Rosenberg's book
It has been said that an online discussion is doomed to become a pointless flame war the moment someone accuses another person of thinking like Hitler.
Does mentioning Rosenberg count?
Ron's favorite technique. He's quite good at it to. It's almost reflexive.
Ron's favorite technique. He's quite good at it, too. It's almost reflexive.
The Nazi Party introduced some very effective propaganda and "social molding" techniques to the world, albeit for evil aims. These techniques were codeveloped, adapted, copied etc. by many repressive regimes thereafter.
Can a comparison to it offend someone? Yes. Can it be a valid comparison? Yes.
Itcan also be said that those who emulate these techniques offend others on the board.
But as AEM-7 once said in a clever post, offense cannot be given, only taken.
Thank you for that wonderful dose of idiotic xenophobia, Alan
And we can leave it up to you to respond with name calling rather than dealing with the issues. Ignoring points being made and indulging in name calling is the only resort of someone who is stumpted by facts, and incapable of disagreeing like an adult. You're batting 1000.
May the Grace of our Lord Bless us all each and every day! My internet friend Alan: 'News, weather and swami turbans together!' I need the secret of Bahgdads 'Flying Carpets' as a tactical personal weapon. Going even further, just imagine how much more I could do in 'troubles' without ever placing one foot upon the shop floor???
I am 'Murricane the Hurricane' and 'Inspector Gadget,' once terms of insult and now terms of endearment. One day I will bring out my long board scooter and show the fat slobs what I can do....clocked 40 MPH on city streets with a backpack full of tools and electronic equipment. Just have to empty out my locker once! CI Peter
Write Singh up on a G-2 re: blue and yellow lines.!!! Most TA employees don't wear a uniform, clothing is based upon experience and exposure to to the envioronment. What you must wear are your 'Buster Brown' safety shoes (tnx SelkirkTMO, protective eyewear, safety helmet and always display TA ID. Singh would be OK if his turban was ANSII rated. What color was it? CI Peter
It's very unfortunate. On one hand it's understandable but where do we draw the line. On 9/11/02 I had gone out to take some pics of WMATA buses with their flags flying, but after a few shots I stopped because... First: Transit buffs often get strange looks from others when they're photographing buses/trains even before 9/11/01. Second: Even though I know I'm a tranist buff with no harmful intentions people are on edge and the last thing I needed was to be mistaken for a possible terrorist.
I do feel for the Sikh TA employee because it's unfair, but we are living in a different world now.
Wayne
No one bugged me for photgraphing CDTA on 9/11, but then again how often does one photograph buses in Albany?
Oh - I understand. It shouldn't be a problem, but given the (quite understandable) mindset of people these days - I just didn't want to push my luck.
Wayne
Just as long as you don't try to take any pictures in the Albany SUBWAY ... that's STRICTLY prohibited. In fact, the Albany subway is so super secret, few even know that it exists. And no, this isn't a joke, there REALLY IS an Albany subway that runs between the Capitol and the A.E.Smith building ... there are NO pictures of it anywhere.
Albany...where's that? Near Atlantis?
:0)
Heh. It's the emerald city ... where all the streets are paved with lobbying cash ... and a few lawyers. :)
But there REALLY IS an Albany subway ...
Una Kev! I know what your talking about: small two-seat cars on a narrow-gauge kinda thinga majig....more like an underground people-mover for the 'big wigs' in the State Senate.
Looks like a job for Branford's Steve "Tunnel Rat" Krokowski to investigate...
Nope ... it ain't like the congressional subway. The Albany subway is very unique indeed. Steve'd probably feel right at home down there too. If you ever make it up this way, we'll do a run on the Albany subway. Got my wrenches, we can roll at any time we want, even after it closes for the night. :)
And you'd use R-9 1801, right?:)
1801 might fit since the trucks are off it (never to be roadworthy again, it's been stripped and rewired as to be useless as a subway car) but NYCTA cars are a bit too tall for the tunnel in the Albany subway. They'd take out some beams and definitely get the TV cameras (since the subway largely carries educrats and legislators, they're paranoid and insist on TV cameras in the subway every 50 feet or so) and probably cause quite a bit of damage.
But it's a neat little subway ... and leaks just like NYC's tunnels.
Over here at SUNY Albany we, too, have a top secret "subway" of sorts... well, no tracks, but there are tunnels underneath most of the buildings connecting them. Originally designed for delivery of stuff to and from the loading docks, they also serve to transport students between buildings when it's too snowy, windy, or cold to walk on the surface.
I did take pictures... on a sunny warm weekend, so no one's down there, not even delivery / maintenance vehicles.
SUNY Tunnel
SUNY Tunnel with sign
Typical Surface Entrance
Typical Door Entrance from Building
KEWL! You've got a camera ... if you ever find yourself downtown, take a visit to the Capitol. On the GROUND floor, travel the corridor over to the north-south corridor on the west side of the building, near rooms 124 and 125. About halfway down the corridor, you'll see the sign on the western wall as you walk north that says "SUBWAY" ... go through the glass turnstyle (it's free) and you're in the Albany subway. I'm sure folks here will get a kick out of seeing Albany's subway ...
Last time I was over there was about three years ago. Since this subway opened in the 1930's, I'm sure it's still in operation. The public *CAN* use it ...
I could probably make a fortune if I went into the bedsheet-washing business.
Police said they regretted the misunderstanding, but added that it was understandable since people are on edge since Sept. 11.
I certainly hope that the police aren't speaking for me. My views on the "war" on terrorism are as follows:
There is no reason for worry.
9/11 was a one-in-a-quadrillion shot.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
Al-Qaeda was a minimal threat to begin with and has been destroyed.
The war is over.
We won.
End of story.
I certainly hope that the police aren't speaking for me. My views on
the "war" on terrorism are as follows:
There is no reason for worry.
The discovery of Al-Qaeda sleeper cells would seem to refute this statement.
9/11 was a one-in-a-quadrillion shot.
Only because we weren't vigilant.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
Likely, but unproven. And there are plenty ready to step into the void.
Al-Qaeda was a minimal threat to begin with and has been destroyed.
They've infiltrated many aspects of American life. They're a real threat to human life, if not to American interests.
The war is over.
Not while Saddam Hussein still reigns in Iraq.
We won.
We're winning. The war continues.
End of story
If only that were so.
Well said!
Thanks. I have understandly stong feelings against Al-Qaeda. After all, they tried to murder me.
And so do I. And I am lucky to have personally undertaken work related to US security.
I wonder, though, if you are under illusiuons that you know how to spot Al-Qaeda better than the rest of us do. I admit, I can't spot one just by looking at him (which "him" am I looking at)
Which only supports my assertion that the entire Muslim community has to be looked at carefully to figure out who the terrorists are. You seem to be insinuating that I believe all Muslims are involved with anti-American activities. That's ridiculous. I'm just saying that it's OK for the government to find out who amongst them are.
Yur posts make it sound that way. And even if you have honorable intentions in your heart, it's not much of a stretch to imagine a low-grade moron whose posts are similar to yours, and decides to protect America by carjacking or beating up a Muslim and then hiding behind the flag. It has happened, and it happens even now.
So what? He's be wrong in his actions. Most Americans would be able to tell the difference. America has, throughout it's history, always known when something goes "too far". Our economy suffered greviously during the depression, but we never fell prey to radical fascism or communism like many other nations around the world did. We had a successful presidential election in the middle of a civil war for Christ sakes!
Al-Qaeda was able to plan and carry out large-scale attacks because it had three things:
1) A safe base from which to operate.
2) "Protection" money from rich Arabs in the Gulf region.
3) The knowledge that the United States wouldn't hit back.
None of these three exist any more.
Al-Qaeda was able to plan and carry out large-scale attacks because it had three things:
1) A safe base from which to operate.
Iran. Iraq. There's sympathy for Al-Qeuda throughout the Muslim world.
(2) "Protection" money from rich Arabs in the Gulf region.
There are dozens of ways money can be transferred that are outside US control. The money is still rolling in.
(3) The knowledge that the United States wouldn't hit back.
You don't think Osama expected the US to take the 9/11 attacks without retaliating in some way? I'd bet he had a post 9/11 infrastructure outside Afghanistan in place well before the attacks. He's an incredibly intelligent man.
None of these three exist any more.
If only.
I agree with your points in this post, Chris. We still need to be careful about how and what we do about this.
Lincoln suspended habeus corpus. FDR interned Japanese and Italian citizens for no other reason but their heritage. Did the republic collapse? Did the constitution suffer? No. American history is replete with examples of limitation or outright suspension of civil rights in times of national emergency. And nobody here is asking for the internment of all Muslim Americans or the suspension of their constitutional rights.
>>> Lincoln suspended habeus corpus. FDR interned Japanese and Italian citizens for no other reason but their heritage. <<<
You surely are not comparing the threat to the survival of the republic which occurred during the Civil War to the situation today, are you? The interning of American citizens of Japanese and Italian descent for no other reason than their parentage during WWII is not something that was justified then, and something most Americans are not proud of.
>>> American history is replete with examples of limitation or outright suspension of civil rights in times of national emergency. <<<
The problem here is that the present "national emergency" is a never ending thing. The "war" on terrorism without identifiable enemies who at some point can say "we surrender" can never be over since anyone, now or in the future, with a real or imagined grudge against the United States can become a terrorist. It is a war without an identifiable end, much like the war on poverty and the war on drugs.
Certainly the United States must protect itself from terrorist attacks, but we cannot save our free democratic society by taking away the freedoms we are rightfully proud of any more than in an earlier era we could save Vietnamese villages by destroying them.
Tom
The internment of Japanese-Americans actually hurt the war effort by denying the US military access to many willing and loyal soldiers who would have been intimately familiar with Japanese tactics and doctrine.
When recruiters did finally come through the camps, the people who volunteered showed the Army why internship was a mistake.
>>>When recruiters did finally come through the camps <<<
Recruiters? Japanese-Americans were drafted out of the camps.
Tom
"Recruiters? Japanese-Americans were drafted out of the camps."
No doubt. However, some were truly volunteers. recruiters did visit the camps looking for people with special skills. One volunteer was recently interviewed. I read that interview (I don't recall which newspaper, though). Despite his internment, he was not bitter. And he was quite invaluable to his troopmates in the Pacific.
>>> However, some were truly volunteers. recruiters did visit the camps looking for people with special skills <<<
Of course there were some volunteers, just as there were Americans enlisting in the armed services all across the country. Most of those who were drafted also went willingly. Only a relatively few resisted the draft on the basis that they would not fight for a country that would not give them their rights as citizens. They were moved to a camp for "troublemakers" and some were jailed. The Army used Japanese speaking soldiers from the camps as translators, with those who did not speak Japanese well going to the 442nd Regimental Combat Team in Europe along with Japanese-Americans from Hawaii (who were never interned). Some Japanese and Japanese-Americans older than draft age were recruited for intelligence service because of their knowledge of Japan itself.
Tom
That's right.
In a sense, the Japanese-American GI faced the same dilemma as the "Tuskegee Airmen" and other lesser known black units. Tey fought proudly (and exceptionally well) for their country despite its mistreatment of them.
When they returned home, they were denied medals, had battlefield promotions rescinded in some cases, and made to walk down the gangplank marked "Colored."
Certainly the United States must protect itself from terrorist attacks, but we cannot save our free democratic society by taking away the freedoms we are rightfully proud of any more than in an earlier era we could save Vietnamese villages by destroying them.
We cannot let our "free, democratic" society be destroyed by those enemies who exploit that freedom and democracy to wage war upon us. Vigilence and democracy are not necessarily opposing forces.
"FDR interned Japanese and Italian citizens for no other reason but their heritage. Did the republic collapse? Did the constitution suffer?"
Yes, it did suffer, and a lot of legal scholars are acknowledging that. The action was contrary to our function as a republic. It was a mistake during WWII, and should never have happened. It happened purely because of ignorance and bigotry, and was counterproductive from the very beginning. We don't want to repeat that mistake.
"American history is replete with examples of limitation or outright suspension of civil rights in times of national emergency."
I'm sorry, but fighting Al Qaeda does not quite rise to the magnitude of WWII or the Civil War.
Yes, it did suffer, and a lot of legal scholars are acknowledging that. The action was contrary to our function as a republic. It was a mistake during WWII, and should never have happened. It happened purely because of ignorance and bigotry, and was counterproductive from the very beginning. We don't want to repeat that mistake.
It's only a mistake in hindsight, applying late 20th century morals to a mid 20th century action. While not defending it's morality, it'll never be known how many Japanese spies were shut down because of the internment.
I'm sorry, but fighting Al Qaeda does not quite rise to the magnitude of WWII or the Civil War.
The Nazis never bombed Manhattan. The Confederates never shelled Washington DC. What does al-Q'aida have to do before that sense of urgency is upon us? Nuke Boston? Release smallpox in Los Angeles?
I'm sorry, but fighting Al Qaeda does not quite rise to the magnitude of WWII or the Civil War.
The Nazis never bombed Manhattan. The Confederates never shelled Washington DC. What does al-Q'aida have to do before that sense of urgency is upon us? Nuke Boston? Release smallpox in Los Angeles?
You're getting youself way too worked up over 9/11. Really, there's no point in worrying so much. Just continue with your life as usual and you'll be a lot happier - and that goes for many thousands of other people, too.
If it helps, try to think of 9/11 in this fashion:
Think of two men. One of them is a skinny weak guy with zero muscle tone, the other is a huge buffed-up dude who's built like an NFL linebacker. The skinny weak guy, could, if given the element of surprise, throw a lucky punch that would give the huge buffed-up dude a black eye or worse. It's within the realm of physical possibility. But it's crystal clear that the skinny guy would not get the chance to try again, and most definitely would regret - really regret - that he punched the huge dude.
Now do you understand 9/11?
"The Nazis never bombed Manhattan."
They could have, and experimented with the idea. Nazi submarines were in East Coast waters.
And being the history genius that you are, you were about to explain how the Pearl Harbor attack was really just a hoax and never happened. And that shelling along the California coast never happened.
Where did you go to school? Is it too late for you to sue them for not teaching you anything?
Al Qaida presents even a greater risk to America than the Soviet Union or Nazi Germanyever thought of They ARE SEEKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND +WILL+ USE THEM -- The doctrine of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) WILL NOT DETER THESE LUNATICS Ron, stop insulting Chris® HE WAS "There" and knows better than you or I ever will the pure evil which Al Qaida represents. THE WORLD WILL +NOT+ BE SAFE UNTIL AL QAIDA IS TOTALLY DESTROYED AND A GENERAL RECOGNITION WITHIN THE MUSLIM UMMAH THAT THE WAGES OF TERRORISM IS DEATH, WHILE THE WAGES OF PEACE WILL BE A WORLD WHICH SEEKS TO DEAL FAIRLY WITH 20% OF THE WORLD POPULATION. LET ME REPEAT, AL QAIDA IS THE MOST DANGEROUS ENEMY AMERICA HAS EVER FACED MAY OUR VICTORY BE TOTAL +GOD BLESS AMERICA+
"They ARE SEEKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS"
So was Nazi Germany. And the Germans successfully launched a V-2 rocket from a submerged barge towed by a U-boat as a test.
Can you imagine what that could have done to our east coast cities?
"Chris® HE WAS "There" and knows better than you or I ever "
Where was he exactly? I'm looking for an explanation behind his posts.
He was in one of the towers at the time of the attack... don't remember which one, I'd have to search the archives... he posted about it here very shortly after the attack (within a day or so).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A terrifying experience, certainly. One I'd hate to have.
It can explain fright, anger and anguish over lost comrades. No doubt he lost many. For that he has my condolensces.
But it can never excuse hatred and bigotry.
I believe Chris works for Morgan Stanley, which lost about five people in the attacks (although the vast majority got out safely).
That's very hard, and Chris bears a terrible burden. I had friends in the tower, but they got out OK.
I was on the Pennsylvania State Police list of people to call in the event of heavy casualties (there were none - you were either dead or OK).
Recall that people hailing from 90 different countries and all religious faiths died in the attack.
So Chris (and others) are understandably angry - and venting on Subtalk is fine - but I do not and will not side with bigotry and hatred as expressed in these posts.
Deutsche Kriegsmarine was here on a visit to NYC with a U-Bot during WW2. Japon did sucessfully attack our Western Coast during WW2. Few know about tactical nuclear 'backpack' weapons carried in Viet Nam. The technology is so much simpler now. Arise Amerika and Stand Strong...blast turban head when he comes out of his hiding hole with your twelve gauge shotgun like a groundhog!
Can we truly live like that defending our Constitution, our Nation and our concious? CI Peter
Al-Qaeda was able to plan and carry out large-scale attacks because it had three things:
1) A safe base from which to operate.
Iran. Iraq. There's sympathy for Al-Qeuda throughout the Muslim world.
Neither country supports al-Qaeda. Many elements of the Iranian government are trying to improve relations with the United States, and the people seem to be have much the same beliefs. In addition, the mainly Shiite Iranians have little use for the Sunni al-Qaeda. Iraq, for its part, may be a distasteful country, but it's quite secular, certainly not the sort of place that would support fundamentalists.
As far as the supposed sympathy for al-Qaeda in the Muslim world goes, it really hasn't shown itself. Even the street demonstrations in Pakistan last October attracted underwhelming crowds. Pakistan was supposed to be the center of support for the Taliban and al-Qaeda, but the crowds didn't show that.
(2) "Protection" money from rich Arabs in the Gulf region.
There are dozens of ways money can be transferred that are outside US control. The money is still rolling in.
Most of those rich Arabs were bankrolling al-Qaeda because they thought they were buying their way out of potential trouble. It was extortion, basically. Now with al-Qaeda scattered, the money bags are clamping shut.
(3) The knowledge that the United States wouldn't hit back.
You don't think Osama expected the US to take the 9/11 attacks without retaliating in some way? I'd bet he had a post 9/11 infrastructure outside Afghanistan in place well before the attacks. He's an incredibly intelligent man.
U.S. "retailiation" under Clinton consisted of tossing $3 million cruise missiles at empty tents. It was widely believed that the U.S. would not risk the lives of its troops in combat. Look at the way the military turned tail and fled Somalia after just one firefight. The extent of the U.S. response to 9/11 was not anticipated.
Neither country supports al-Qaeda. Many elements of the Iranian government are trying to improve relations with the United States, and the people seem to be have much the same beliefs. In addition, the mainly Shiite Iranians have little use for the Sunni al-Qaeda. Iraq, for its part, may be a distasteful country, but it's quite secular, certainly not the sort of place that would support fundamentalists.
Al-Qaeda has shown the ability to strike the United States at home and abroad. Sunni and Shiite hatred for the United States is something which could unite the two long warring Muslim factions. Iraq may not care for Al-Qaeda's "jihad" against the United States, but their ability to carry out large scale terrorist actions against American targets is more than enough reason for Saddam to open his checkbook.
As far as the supposed sympathy for al-Qaeda in the Muslim world goes, it really hasn't shown itself. Even the street demonstrations in Pakistan last October attracted underwhelming crowds. Pakistan was supposed to be the center of support for the Taliban and al-Qaeda, but the crowds didn't show that.
Pakistan had to use it's army to clamp down on civil unrest when the war against terror began. Al-Qaeda has a lot of sympathy within the Muslim world, and even among Muslims here in America.
Most of those rich Arabs were bankrolling al-Qaeda because they thought they were buying their way out of potential trouble. It was extortion, basically. Now with al-Qaeda scattered, the money bags are clamping shut.
Al-Qaeda cells are still receiving cash from overseas. Various Muslim relatied charitable organizaions are fronts for Al-Qaeda and similar terrorist groups like Hamas. The money's still flowing.
U.S. "retailiation" under Clinton consisted of tossing $3 million cruise missiles at empty tents. It was widely believed that the U.S. would not risk the lives of its troops in combat. Look at the way the military turned tail and fled Somalia after just one firefight. The extent of the U.S. response to 9/11 was not anticipated.
Osama would have rightly concluded that the audcity of the attacks, the targets (remember the 4th plane was meant for the Capitol or the White House) and the expected deathtoll of American civilians would create the political will to launch an offensive against his organization. His post 9-11 "videos" to Arab news organizations are a prime example. Many intelligence experts believe that Osama is dead and that these videotapes, meant to show that Al-Qaeda is still functioning, were filmed before the attack on Afghanistan began. That's foward planning.
We must stop underestimating this man and the organization he built. It's exactly what he wants. If we cannot even identify his cells within American borders, how can we say his organization worldwide has been crippled?
>>> Al-Qaeda has a lot of sympathy within the Muslim world, and even among Muslims here in America.
...
Al-Qaeda cells are still receiving cash from overseas. Various Muslim relatied charitable organizaions are fronts for Al-Qaeda and similar terrorist groups like Hamas. <<<
And how do you know these "facts"? And how do you consider Hamas to be like al-Qaeda? Hamas has much more limited aims, similar to the IRA in Northern Ireland, but for Palestine, while al-Qaeda is an international organization trying to unite radical fundamentalist Muslims worldwide, to institute fundamentalist Islamic governments, and a separation of Islamic states from the rest of the world. Al-Qaeda is supported by extremists, not the mainstream Muslim population.
Tom
And how do you know these "facts"?
I can read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2092471.stm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0702/p01s02-wosc.html
And how do you consider Hamas to be like al-Qaeda? Hamas has much more limited aims, similar to the IRA in Northern Ireland, but for Palestine, while al-Qaeda is an international organization trying to unite radical fundamentalist Muslims worldwide, to institute fundamentalist Islamic governments, and a separation of Islamic states from the rest of the world. Al-Qaeda is supported by extremists, not the mainstream Muslim population.
al-Qa'ida (finally learned how to spell it right) is hiding within the mainstream Muslim population. It's perfectly acceptable to keep an eye on this segment of the population.
>>> al-Qa'ida (finally learned how to spell it right) is hiding within the mainstream Muslim population. <<<
I checked out the links you provided but do not see where they support your statements. The BBC piece quotes U.S. Treasury sources who have been making these claims without providing any proof. The Christian Science Monitor piece was more interesting, but was about the fact that many al-Qaeda fighters have come from Afghanistan to Pakistan and are in the Kashmir area They are not hiding in mainstream Muslim population, but are in an area where the central government can not or does not wish to exercise complete control. That's more like (but much more dangerous than) our militias in Idaho running around in the woods claiming they do not have to obey the federal government. They may have some support elsewhere in the United States, but you could hardly say they are hiding in the mainstream Christian population.
Tom
Good thing the people who spotted the MTA worker weren't on the 1 train around the loop Saturday night, or else that unattended/fogotten backpack probably would have shut down the entire Seventh Aveune line....
I'm just curious...some of you guys think that Middle Easterners should be scrutinized. Now, do you mean specifically Muslims? What about Iranians? A lot of Iranians don't look like Arabs, because they're NOT Arabs. I know an Iranian girl, and she looks Italian or Jewish. It's a little too general to say scrutinize Middle Eastern looking people. What specifically is a Middle eastern looking person? Israelis are Middle Eastern looking, aren't they?
Now, since you guys tend to see Islam as the problem, do you think that only Muslim Arab-looking people are a threat? If you do, that's fine, I just maybe think that that is narrow thinking...You don't think that there are any non-Muslims in "Al-Quaida" or whatever it's called this week? Maybe some of them are Christian Arabs, maybe some of them are Muslim non-Arabs, like Farsi. What about Coptic Christians in Egypt, who are Arab Christians? A lot of them are anti-American, and they're not even Muslim. You see my point yet?
It's like saying "All Christians"...there's a very wide gap between Baptists and Catholics, isn't there? If you're Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist you might think that all Christians are the same group, but it isn't true at all.
You might be better just considering anyone who is from a Middle Eastern country and isn't Jewish a threat....and that's a whole lot of vastly different peoples, with different religions.
A very intelligent post. You should post more often.
I'm just curious...some of you guys think that Middle Easterners should be scrutinized. Now, do you mean specifically Muslims? What about Iranians? A lot of Iranians don't look like Arabs, because they're NOT Arabs. I know an Iranian girl, and she looks Italian or Jewish. It's a little too general to say scrutinize Middle Eastern looking people. What specifically is a Middle eastern looking person? Israelis are Middle Eastern looking, aren't they?
Consider three people in the news: "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh, who is Caucasian; "Shoe Bomber" Richard Reid, who is a mulatto; and "Dirty Bomber" Jose Padilla, who is Puerto Rican.
A Palestinian would look Jewish because the only difference between a purebred Jew and a Palestinian is his religion, they are both Semites.
Thanks for proving my point....What if the authorities were "profiling" Middle Eastern looking males, and scrutinized an Israeli man as a possible "terrorist" threat without realizing he was Israeli rather than Palestinian?
Are those that support profiling here willing to scrutinize ANYONE, across the board, who appears "Middle Eastern" because of their appearance? My uncle was Sicilian, and we called him "The Turk" because he looked so much like an Arab it wasn't funny.
Another example....a Mexican guy I work with was in a supermarket last week, and started speaking Spanish to a guy on line, who turned out to be from Morocco. My friend was laughing, saying, " I thought he was a Mexican!!!!"
Again, my point is, what does Middle Eastern looking exactly mean?
And, again, I must say, if you ONLY focus on people who APPEAR to be Middle Eastern, you automatically are not profiling everyone who is a threat by your own definitions.
In 1972 my wife and I were in Amsterdam - heading for Munich to see the olympics when the PLO attacked the Israeli Olympic residence. We decided to fly home instead. We were subject to a very invasive search at Schiphol airport before boarding our Pan Am flight home. Yes, i dislike my space invaded but fully understood the need. IF you have a burning philosophical objection to heightened security - then avoid it. Profiling for racial motives is a dispicable, unjustifiable disgraceful act. Profiling where there are legitimate national security or public safety concerns should be tolerated. Personal rights can't generally override the general welfare of the population.
Very well said, Train Dude
Point taken, Train Dude.
I fully agree with your point - I currently live in Israel, and, when returning home after a brief visit to the US, was subject to some extremely detailed questioning by airport security. The only reason I can think of for the higher level of scrutiny is my appearance - I look very semitic, I now have a beard, whick I did not have in my passport photo, and, though I was carrying an Israeli ID card, I spoke Hebrew with a strong foreign accent. Was this profiling? Absolutely. Was it inconvenient? Definitely. Was it justified? Darn straight it was!! In fact, I was in many ways happy for the increased attention I drew; it showed that security was taking all potential threats _quite_ seriously. If the individual being stopped due to profiling is, in fact, innocent, then he definitely deserves to be treated courteously and apology for the inconvenience (which I received), but no more - this is truly a case where the bennefit to the many far outways the inconvenience to individual, as anyone with common sense whould realize.
subfan
>>> the only difference between a purebred Jew and a Palestinian is his religion <<<
What is a "purebred" Jew?? I found your post rather offensive.
Tom
Tom you are one person I have NEVER agreed with but the Jewish People who were led from Egypt by Moses were Semites. "Purebred" in this case refers to someone who is a Semite. Not all Jews are Semites, of course but the origin of the Jewish people is, like the Palestinians, Semitic. Your attack is typical of PC police everywhere when they begin to inevitably lose their debate.
>>> Your attack is typical of PC police everywhere when they begin to inevitably lose their debate. <<<
What debate? I have looked up the thread and do not see anywhere that we were debating anything.
I found your reference to "purebred" Jews offensive, because as far as I know, Judaism does not differentiate between any physical characteristics as being more pure Jewish than any other. Those who have lived for centuries in Europe and Asia are just as purebred as those who remained in the Middle East. In my experience, those who say there are physical characteristics which prove one is a purebred Jew have been the ones who have wanted to exterminate the Jews.
Perhaps what you wanted to say was that Jews of Middle East ancestry are generally physically indistinguishable from Muslims in those same areas.
Your profession puts a high value on using the words that most accurately convey the thoughts that they are trying to express. That is not just politically correct.
Tom
Tom: Just to clarify - Jews divide themselves into various groups. Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Hassidic etc. Each considers itself more jewish that the others. This is by no means unique. Among blacks there is contention based on skin tone gradations and even national origin. George Orwell summed it up best in "Animal Farm", "All pigs are created equal but some are more equal than others."
I am quite sure that John never meant to be offensive and although "purebred" is a term that raises the hairs on the backs of most Jews' necks, as he used it, there is more than a grain of truth.
Dude, Tom is one of those people who look for conflict. The Jewish Peple (B'nai Yisrael) is incredibly global and diverse. Black Jews from Ethiopia whose Jewish ancestors left the holy land many centuries ago still practice pre rabbinic Judaism share the House of Israel with Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews. Reform Jews and Kaballists, Conservatives and Chasidic Jews are all part of one of the most diverse religious groups in the world. One thing that I am very proud of is that I can count myself among the Jewish People. OLD tom insinuating ehat I am anti semitic Is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE to me as a Jew. Anyway, Steve keep up the quality postings.
He wasn't insinuating anything - only pointing to the simple-minded ness (and inappropriateness) of the post.
There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage - but you seem to need to wear it, and play it up, on your sleeve. That can imply a level of social insecurity.
WELCOME TO MY KILLFILE
Ron, while you constantly accuse others of it, you seem to be the prince of personal attacks. How about sticking to issues? Seems everyone here's gotten the message but you.
If you have a coherent message, I've been waiting for you to post it. I'm still waiting.
Come on Ron, can't we have a real serious conversation without it getting personal? You didn't have to lay it on John that way. Your advocacy is welcomed but we had a lot of this flamage before and all it did was get a lot of people bitter and mad. You and John should patch things up. Let's disagree without getting personal.
All right, I hit a sore spot with John, I admit. But recall that "flamage" can be addressed to whole groups of people. All I did was point out how a particular poster may be doing that.
Since I don't use the Killfile, I will continue to read whatever he posts. Whether he reads mine is up to him.
(You don't need a Killfile to not see a post's text, of course. You just don't click on it)
Train Dude's sharpens his knives on the same steel I do. He's all right.
He's among the most valuable folks on this board. He helps run our trains. We need him.
Good show. And you are right about the Dude. He's a straight shooter who doesn't bullshit one iota, and since we works for the MTA I have to keep him happy because he might actually use what influence he has to get my Sea Beach back on the Manny B. Have a good day.
>>> OLD tom insinuating ehat I am anti semetic Is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE to me as a Jew <<<
Perhaps you should re-read my previous post . I did not insinuate that you were anti-semitic. I explained to you why I found the phrase "purebred Jew" when referring to physical characteristics offensive.
Tom
Now even I found it a bit interesting at the begining of all the "Jewish" religion clarification posts when it started a week or two ago. I even participated in the begining, when it was just a post here and there. But why does almost every thread have to turn into preaching about Jewish religion and other religions lately? Not that there's anything wrong with it, especially when it's just a thread here and there, aas it was interesting, but it's turning into ReligionTalk here!
I didn't intend to preach. I thought I was clarifying a point made by another poster that was being misinterpreted. I certainly did mot mean to offend you by mentioning Jews.
I'm sorry, I didn't direct it at you, it was just a general statement. Yours just happened to be the post I responded to. I'm not offended, and did learn a bit from all the posts, it just seems like every thread is turning into this.
I didn't notice anybody preaching, only people teaching about Jewish holidays and practices and the like.
But hey, even though I like this thread, let's try killing it.
The reason that every thread DEGENERATES into Jew propoganda is because like all other parts of the media, it's run by the Jews.
There, that should do it!
You know guys, every time we get into a subject like this tempers flare and things are said that later are regretted. Suffice to say we have to be vigilant and keep our eyes open for anything that might look suspicious. Even that is a reach at times because what may look suspicious to us is innocuous to others. I certainly see where you are coming from Old Tom. Jews have been persecuted since time immemorium and enough is enough. I do have a confession, though, and I don't know if that qualifies me as being less than sensitive. I now look at people I know to be Middle Eastern with a little apprehension and, sad to say, a little hostility. Being honest about it, I have been less than enamored with the reactions by the leaders of the Muslim Community. They have been very reluctant, most of them, to out and out condemn what happened on September 11 of last year. President Bush, whether you like him or not, is right on one thing. In the US you are either for us or against us. We have to convinced that there are no Trojan horses among us.
"I have been less than enamored with the reactions by the leaders of the Muslim Community. They have been very reluctant, most of them, to out and out condemn what happened on September 11 of last year."
In the Middle East, yes, in the US, no. I applaud your acknowledgment of your personal prejudice (that takes guts) but you have no factual basis to say what you said about leaders of the US Muslim community. They would rightfully be offended and hurt.
Ron, do you make this shit up as you go along?
Seems to me that the FBI and interpol have shown many Muslim charities here and in the western world are funding sources for muslim extremist terrorists. Most of those charities were run by muslim clerics. Then of course, there have been several arrests of good, hard working muslims in this country who have turned their business abilities to producing fraudulent IDs - in two cases, directly tracable to the 9/11 hijackers. And then who do we see on the news? The muslim clerics and community leaders saying that these are hard working people whos only crime is being muslim in the USA. Yup, they've also learned to play the 'profile card' as well as the 'race card'.
"Ron, do you make this shit up as you go along?"
No, I just recycle yours.
:0)
Why are you becoming defensive here? Tom was attempting to show you something valuable (and Tom is a lot gentler about it than I sometimes am).
You or he have NOTHING to show me. Oh and BTW, I am Jewish
Jewish People who were led from Egypt by Moses were Semites.
They weren't Jewish people at that time but rather Hebrews or Israelites.
Moses didn't exist. There were probably people that did the things that "Moses" is attributed to have done, but almost certainly not one person.
I can understand what you are trying to mean though: Jews whose heritage can be traced back to ancient Israel as opposed to later converts, who are Jewish by religion and not DNA (that doesn't make them any less Jewish).
The entire nation of Israel was never enslaved in Egypt. During the time of the Middle Kingdom, there were many foreign slaves in Egypt, including those from Canaan, who probably came to Egypt during some long regional drought. When the Middle Kingdom collapsed, many returned to their ancestral homelands and their stories ended up passing into the verbal stories that were part of the local culture. The Torah was not written and canonized until after conquest by the Assyrians and Babylonians in the 8th and 6th Century BC respectively, so the story of the enslavement in Egypt by then was similar to the plight of the Jews at that time, and for much of the future.
As for the vanquishing of the indigenous Canaanites, it is most likely that Jews ARE the indigenous Canaanites, but as the religion evolved to an advanced monotheist religion, it made more sense to show the pagans as having been the vanquished, not the ancestors.
If Jews truly did descend from the original Canaanites (it's no certainty, just another theory, as none of us were there to see it), since is a good thing, since it shows that Jews belong there and didn't just conquer the lands from others. Many Palestinians consider Canaanites their ancestors.
After the destruction of the Second Temple, most Jews didn't live in Judea, but rather in other parts of the world.
Palestinians may have migrated from Arabia where Islam started, but were probably already in Palestine when the Arabs conquered it. There are after all, Palestinian Christians. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that some Jews converted to Islam or Christianity, it's not like it wasn't known to happen.
The fight between Palestinians and Jews isn't because Palestinians cannot live with Israel, but because Arab and Palestinian "leaders" would rather have the State of Israel as a scapegoat for their peoples' troubles, caused by those same leaders.
A Palestinian state and a Jewish state can live together in peace, and they have since the State of Israel signed a peace treaty with the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in 1994.
An interesting and thoughtful post.
I don't agree that there was no slaughter or conquest of Canaanites. That Palestinians consider Canaanites to be their ancestors sounds phony to me, but portraying the Canaanites as simply Jews who evolved is usually told in the context of portraying Jews as the only major religion without a history of slaughter or subjugation of others. It's a theory, but support for it is questionable. I'm sorry, but we Jews aren't that pure. Nobody is.
Moses, indeed, was a composite character portraying many different leaders of the time. It's easier for a reader to grasp the conflicts and issues of the day when you consolidate the agenda with one personality. It's easier to tell the story that way.
It's true that Palestinians have caused a lot of their own problems. They have a lot of trouble accepting responsibility, but lately, some leaders have emerged who are more forthright about it. We'll see if Arafat suppresses them. Israel, however, is still in a better position, relatively, to make some positive changes itself, even some unilaterally, which would help both sides.
For example, I believe that the settlers near Hebron, and in Gaza, should be informed that Israeli Army protection will be withdrawn on a timetable, and then offered resettlement funding in Israel proper. Certain radical settlers in Hebron are at the heart of a terorist movement themselves, and are a liability to Israel, rather than an asset - a parasitic drain on the rest of the state.
This does not mean that Israel should remove all settlements, however, and especially not unilaterally.
The peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan are precious assets, hard-won achievements which Israelis, Jordanians and Egyptians can be rightfully proud of.
Even the Syrian frontier is quiet, and Bashar Assad does not appear to engage in the same kind of saber-rattling his father did. So there is a defacto peace there, too. It is not inconceivable that a treaty could be worked out.
That Palestinians consider Canaanites to be their ancestors sounds phony to me, but portraying the Canaanites as simply Jews who evolved is usually told in the context of portraying Jews as the only major religion without a history of slaughter or subjugation of others. It's a theory, but support for it is questionable.
I'm not saying there was no slaughter and subjugation, it just wasn't as widespread as the bible claims. There were wars between Israel and its neighbors, and the wars with the Philistines during the time of King David were probably true.
This does not mean that Israel should remove all settlements, however, and especially not unilaterally.
Anybody should be able to live on any side of the "border" that they choose as full citizens of a secular, democratic state.
Immigrants to the United States do not live as second class citizens, they live comfortably near members of other ethnic groups and don't live in refugee camps while waiting to return to their homes in the Old World.
"Immigrants to the United States do not live as second class citizens, they live comfortably near members of other ethnic groups and don't live in refugee camps while waiting to return to their homes in the Old World. "
I agree with you, though the US still has a ways to go in improving what "comfortable" means to minorities here...
We have to face some very sad facts. There are many people in the world who hate us and want to see us destroyed as a civilization. The Jews can tell us oddles of stories on that because they have been there before and are there now as they try to hold on as best they can in the Middle East while hostile forces led by rotten bums are bent on destroying a country that has turned a wasteland into a garden. Why the hell was the place such a desolate and worthless hellhole until the Israelis got hold of some of that land and made it a haven of prosperity and progress? Someone please tell me that. As far as what's been going on with this post, it just shows me that all of us have been transformed in ways we didn't want to be by the events of September 11, 2001. Unfortunate but true.
The fight between Palestinians and Jews isn't because Palestinians cannot live with Israel, but because Arab and Palestinian "leaders" would rather have the State of Israel as a scapegoat for their peoples' troubles, caused by those same leaders.
Oooh! You know it. It's worse than that, though. Over the years, the Arab press has gotten more and more anti-Semitic (the point that Arabs are "Semites" too is irrelavant. It does not prevent one from hating Jews.) And not just the "soft" anti-Semitism either, an unspoken bias or a subtle rhetoric. We're talking about rabid, Nazi-style portayals of Jews as world-dominating vampires. We're talking about the kind of anti-Semitism where every world problem is blamed on the Jews, who are portayed as having no existence outside of malevolence. And we're not talking about fringe media either. This is the mainstream press, in most cases gvernment-controlled (but even the "opposition" papers, where they exist, are if anything worse.) And it includes those under the Palestinean Authority, for that matter.
Israel has in no way been completely innocent in the conflict. Sharon in particular has shown that he's still very much in the pocket of the Settler movement, a small minority who are parasites to the rest of Israelis, not to mention the Palestineans. And the Palestineans have suffered much over the last fifty years, somewhat because of Israel (but at least as much because the Arab nations insisted on using them against Israel, and because they themselves still insist on using themselves against Israel.) At any rate the Arab bias against Israel and the Jews has a malice that goes beyond any valid criticism, or even the need of dictators to control their subjects. When you get to the root causes of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I have to conclude that the main reason most Arabs hate Israel so much has to do with deep-seated, long-held beliefs about Jews.
The Palestinean image-makers will take just about any opportunity to portray Israelis as foreign colonialists and themselves as the oppressed "indigenous" population. While it is true that the founders of Israel came mainly out of Europe, the fact remains that the majority of Israelis today are in fact refugees from Arab and Muslim countries. Jews have NEVER been strangers in the Muslim world. Jews have been minorities in Muslim countries since (and before) the founding of Islam. That is to say, that by and large Jews have been an OPPRESSED minority in the Muslim world. Their status as Dhimi, ie an inferior minority who must submit to the Muslim faith, was something written right into law. Jews could not build houses higher than Muslims in the same community, or Synagogues remotely as high as the Mosques. In many cases, Jews' property was taken from them by the government, and in the worst of times violence against Jews was common and rarely prosecuted, even encouraged. Though many modern Arab countries have governments that are at least nominally secular, the attitudes about Jews have not changed, and the Arab governments have done nothing to change them. What I am suggesting is, Arabs (not ALL Arabs, but the prevailing wisdom) hate Israel because it is a country where the inferior Jews have power over Arabs. In the old world view, it is supposed to be the other way arround.
---Andrew
The Jews may not be blameless in Israel but five will get you ten that 95% of the bullshit going on the Middle East is the fault of the Palestinians and their bag of pathetic leaders.
The Jews may not be blameless in Israel but five will get you ten that 95% of the bullshit going on the Middle East is the fault of the Palestinians and their bag of pathetic leaders.
Well...
It's actually kind of hard to say. One big problem is that the information comming from the Palestinean media and the "street", to say nothing of the leadership, is of such varied reliability. I do not doubt for a second that there are genuine and legitimate greivances against the Israeli occupation, especially under Sharon's itchy trigger finger. But they get lost amidst the countless conspiracy theories, exagerations, and outright fabrications.
--Andrew
American Pig: EXCEPTIONALLY well put and duly posted...no arguement from me! I wish someone of repute would stand in front of the United Nations General Assembly as well as the Security Council to repeat YOUR statement. Many years ago as a shortwave transmitter tech, I had the opportunity to go in U.N. service to work on the very transmitters we were building for them (like working for Bombardier/Kawasaki/Wabco/Vapor and going to NYCTA.) Sometimes I regret not going but the Israel/Egypt/Lebanon 'hotspots' offer no welcome to Americans wearing the sky blue uniform and helmet.
Everything you stated is true to fact (except of course what nobody could have been present for to see and record.) 'Palestinians' are fools to play 'cat and mouse' with IDF...attempting to 'get even' or gain world attention always brings about death and destruction to the innocent victims, to the 'terrorists' and the Palistininan people in general.
Saddam Hussein would like to play into this along with his cronies from Syria and Libya...one thing the public does not understand is that Iraq, Iran and Turkey are not 'arab' countries but ethnically 'Persian.' I will not go further into this as you appear far more knowledgable about the subject materiel. I'll stick to fixing subway cars as it is far safer working 'undercar' than maintaining radio equipment in a brick building/oven in Ismaylia, Egypt. CI peter
...one thing the public does not understand is that Iraq, Iran and Turkey are not 'arab' countries but ethnically 'Persian.
Only Iran is populated by Persians. The Persian language, or Farsi, is part of the Iranian subset of the Indo-European language group. Other Iranian languages include Dari (spoken in Pakistan and Afghanistan) and Kurdish. Kurdistan is spread out among Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. Iran also has one of the largest, and most endangered, remaining Jewish communities in the Muslim world. There is a small Arab minority too.
Turkey's people are best reffered to as simply Turks. Their language belongs to the Turkic group, which includes Turkmen, Usbek, and many other Central Asian languages. Turkey does have a large Kurdish minority as well as smaller numbers of Arabs, Jews, Greeks, and Armenians.
Now Iraq certainly is an Arab country. A clear majority of Iraqis are Arabs (with the Kurds the major non-Arab ethnic group), though they are divided by religion, with Shiite Moslems a clear majority over the Suni Moslems, from whom come most of the ruling class. (The only other Moslem country where Shiites are a majority is Iran, and they also form a plurality in the crazy quilt of Lebanon.) Iraq has some Jews remaining too, but not many.
For what it is worth, Persian, Kurdish, and most languages of the Moslem world are written with Arabic characters (sort of like the way Yiddish and Ladino are written in Hebrew characters.) Turkish, however, is written in Roman characters, just like English. (It was written in Arabic characters too until the 1920's when the reforms of Kemal Attaturk occured.)
:-) Andrew
Excellent post and great history lesson.
While you make some good points in this post, I would like to remind you that if Moses didn't exist and the Jews (or as you prefer to call them, the Israelites) were not enslaved as a people in Egypt, then you are eliminating a large part of the story of the Jewish people. I suggest you just assume things like Moses's existance to have actually occurred until you can prove otherwise. You have no evidence indicating such and until you do, I don't want to hear he didn't. I happen to be a very great grandson of his brother Aaron. If Moses didn't exist, I assume Aaron didn't either. Can you explain the origin of the kohanim if Aaron didn't exist? (In case you haven't realized yet, I am a kohen).
You are free to e-mail a reply to this post instead of replying here at oren@orenstransitpage.com.
Now you guys are getting a little over my head. All I can tell you is that I was taught that the Jews were God's chosen people, and as a Roman Catholic there is no way you can be anti-Jewish and get into heaven----no way. The Lord we worship as Savior was a Jew and in order to get into Heaven you have to pass St Peter at the gate. If my history is still intact, Peter was Simon and a Jew as well. Case closed.
The Roman Catholics I know will tell you that if you worship according to your beliefs and are sincere, you are saved and can go to Heaven (regardless of what religion you are).
"All I can tell you is that I was taught that the Jews were God's chosen people,"
I am Jewish, not religious in outlook - but if Iwere, then we are all God's Chosen People. If God put you on the Earth for a reason, He put 6 billion others on there too - they are all "chosen" - except that some will squander and desecrate their gift, others will not.
All you can do is not desecrate yours.
"While you make some good points in this post, I would like to remind you that if Moses didn't exist and the Jews (or as you prefer to call them, the Israelites) were not enslaved as a people in Egypt, then you are eliminating a large part of the story of the Jewish people. "
He didn't say that; he merely said there were Jews in other places besides Egypt. That is most certainly true. The Jewish story is more complicated than just the exodus from Egypt.
"I suggest you just assume things like Moses's existance to have actually occurred until you can prove otherwise."
Maybe you should consult a good university library and do some reading before you point the finger at somebody else.
" You have no evidence indicating such and until you do, I don't want to hear he didn't. "
Then don't read the post.
It's truly sad that, when someone is offering information and a point of reasoned discussion, that you prefer not to learn anything. Jews have a tradition of learning and discussion, and you are rejecting it.
"I happen to be a very great grandson of his brother Aaron. If Moses didn't exist, I assume Aaron didn't either."
It might be useful for you to be able to offer the source of this family tree. Don't confuse history with legend, or faith with proof. Each has a proper place. The Bible is a wonderful allegorical text, historical text, politica science text. If you read it too literally, however, you miss its lessons and do its study an injustice.
I would like to remind you that if Moses didn't exist and the Jews (or as you prefer to call them, the Israelites)
You obviously need to bone up on some unbiased Jewish history (not the propoganda one learns in Hebrew school). If you did, then you'd know that the term was Israelite or Hebrew until the 8th Century BC when the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel. At that time, the 10 tribes that comprised the northern kingdom were scattered and became the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel." Various inconclusive theories abound as to their disappearance. After the fall of Israel, all that was left was the southern kingdom of Judea consisting of the tribe of Judah and one other, smaller tribe, hence the name JEW, from Judah.
...were not enslaved as a people in Egypt, then you are eliminating a large part of the story of the Jewish people.
No, I'm not. The bible is not a perfect historical text to anyone except for the most ardent bible thumper. One can look at the bible as a guide to historical events but not as an ultimate arbiter of them. Literacy was not a common thing until modern times, and most stories were passed on through poetry and song by word of mouth (the so-called verbal tradition). It is an absolute certainty that stories were mangled beyond recognition in this time. Nobody cared about how the future would look at the past, things hardly changed in one person's lifetime.
If you had continued reading what I had wrote, and not dismissed it because it violates your worldview, you would see that I did NOT dismiss the exodus story entirely, only the bible's interpretation of it.
I suggest you just assume things like Moses's existance to have actually occurred until you can prove otherwise.
I suggest you do not assume anything exists until you can prove otherwise.
Archaelogists have studied this in great detail, and while there is rampant disagreement about how events truly transpired, there is near universal agreement from real scientists (as opposed to bible thumpers posing as scientists) that the bible is not infallible and is not the cannon truth.
Because it is written in the bible does not make something true.
You have no evidence indicating such and until you do, I don't want to hear he didn't.
So you don't want to be confused by the facts? I'm sorry, but the burden is on you to prove that Moses did exist.
Nobody has figured out what caused life to first appear on Earth. Since it cannot at this time or perhaps ever be proven what caused life to first appear on Earth, does not mean you are free to make up wild stories that people then have to disprove.
I happen to be a very great grandson of his brother Aaron.
You were told you are a very great grandson of Moses' brother Aaron. What proof do you have of that? Did you have your Y chromosome compared with other Kohanim?
It was discovered that about 50% claiming to be Kohanim do share a common lineage, making it likely that all Kohanim descended from a single man, BUT that does not prove that the name of that man was Aaron and that he was a brother of a man named Moses and that his brother was responsible for all of the things Exodus says he is.
If Moses didn't exist, I assume Aaron didn't either.
You should never make ASSumptions. Do you have any siblings? If you were never born, does that automatically mean that they wouldn't be born either?
I can infer that Aaron did exist (and may have had a different name), but that's not an absolute certainty. There may have instead been a small group of men and not one man. Either way, there is no reason why said man had to be related in any way to the prophet that led the Israelite group out of Egypt, if there was such a person.
"It was discovered that 50% claiming to be kohanim...." Here is one rare instance where I believe I've found you've made a mistake. The figure for the particular segment of the Y chromosome is more like 98%. Amazing since samples were taken from kohanim of various ethnic groups derived from all parts of the world. So there is a common male ancestor for the kohanim and the Bible story, in this regard, largely correct. Of course, you don't have to believe that the guy's name was Aharon....
No, the reference that I read shows 50%, which is sufficient as far as proving that a common ancestor existed. AFAIK, the lineage is supposed to be from the father, but 50% would mean that people didn't care which parent it was.
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1061/2_110/65014591/p1/article.jhtml:
Whereas only 3 to 5 percent of all male Jews have certain "kohen-specific" Y-chromosome haplotypes or DNA markers, these patterns, the team's research showed, are found in just under half of all self-declared Ashkenazi kohanim and just over half of all non-Ashkenazi ones. Moreover, since the difference between kohanim and non-kohanim points to a single common ancestor for the former, and the average rate at which this ancestor's Y chromosome would have mutated over time is known from statistical tables, it is possible to estimate how long ago he lived: namely, 106 generations. Allowing 25 to 30 years for a generation, this gives us a date between 650 and 1180 B.C.E. The earlier of these takes us back close to the time in which a historical Moses would have lived.
Thanks Pigs for that link. As always, I am impressed by your general knowledge. The link, of course, is a summary of the scientific research and is described in layman's terms. But I happen to be a geneticist. Frankly, I don't understand the first sentence you quoted from the link and don't see how it connects with the second sentence. The 98% identity of DNA base-pair sequencing in kohanim is a figure I remember from having read from a more direct source. Of course, there is a certain %age possibility that my memory has failed me....
The first sentence shows that only 3 to 5% of all Jews have the "Kohen gene," while about 50% of Kohanim do. The second one then goes on to give a timeframe for the common ancestor of kohanim.
"I am a kohen...." So you and I go back a long ways.... and have a 98% chance of having the same DNA base sequence in a particular segment of the Y chromosome.
["Police said they regretted the misunderstanding, but...."]
But NOTHING. There was no "misunderstanding" of any kind, only bias-based harassment.
We're supposed to believe that both the general public and the high-and-mighty NYPD are now so dumb that nobody can tell a Sikh turban from a Muslim turban? Puh-leeze... People KNOW the difference between a Sikh turban and a Muslim turban, AND that most (mainstream) Muslims don't even wear turbans, AND that Sikhs are from India, which is NOT the Middle East.
I've been trying to avoid this one because I've seen just SO much off the wall on this whole thing. Let's add to your point that Sikhs and Hindi and Muslims aren't exactly bedfellows EITHER (little place called KASHMIR might serve as a reminder of this) and that the assumption based on "Middle Eastern Origin" as an excuse is nothing short of comical.
HOWEVER, whether the person emerging from the manhole was Sikh, Irish, Lithuanian or Chinese SHOULDN'T HAVE MATTERED. WHOEVER came out of that hole should have been stopped and questioned solely on a basis of BEING THERE in the FIRST place. And if I was a cop, I wouldn't accept a Transit Authority ID *either* until I had verified with someone who could positively identify whoever as BEING an employee (Darius, anyone?).
I wouldn't find ANYTHING wrong with detaining someone emerging from such a location so long as the basis for the stop was "ummmm, you're NOT supposed to be coming out of a manhole cover, so who the hell ARE you?" What exactly DOES a terrorist look like? The guys who hijacked those planes had shaved, had shed their "islamic appearance" and sinned their butts off drinking and gambling the night before they flew those planes. They even snuck into the restrooms to shave off all their hair based on the instructions they had received prior to their act of murder. So chances are they wouldn't have looked very "Middle Eastern" at all, since "blending in" was their Modus Operendi.
SUSPICIOUS BEHAVIOR is what any good cop is trained to spot. People being where they don't belong, acting fidgety, and a raft of other "signs" that law enforcement people are taught to notice. People wearing heavy coats in August and a raft of other things. Things that DON'T BELONG. Doesn't matter if it's a 5 year old kid or an old Bulgarian woman.
From what I've been reading though, it would seem that we've ALL got a LOT to learn and we're not learning it. Instead of this silly color coordinated fashion scheme we've been handed (today is a GLORIOUS ORANGE DAY whatever the hell THAT means) it would behoove us to be taught to spot unattended bags, people dressed inappropriately for weather conditions, people pacing and sweating and other more USEFUL signs. But no, instead we're off on THIS.
Only goes to show that the terrorists have WON ... we're after each OTHER instead of THEM, and trashing our liberties in the process because our lawgivers cut the crap out of the budgets of law enforcement and intelligence agencies for silly tax cuts ... sheesh. I'm SURE we would have been a bit better off had we let Uncle Sammy keep the $300 and spent it on cops and spies for the last ten years. But what do I know? I'm just a dumb country boy. :)
A very nice post.
I second that.
There ARE real threats.
There are very effective ways of coping with suspicious behavior that lie between ignoring it and arresting everyone suspicious on sight.
If you do something suspicious you should expect to get stopped but not arrested if you can explain.
When I was a teenager, I went for a walk on a suburban street (without a sidewalk) at night. Every time a car came, I had to get off the street. Pretty soon a police car came and asked for ID. Someone had noticed me "lurking in the bushes". After I explained, they went away.
This was handled exactly the way it should have been, and we can continue to handle suspicious behavior this way. The police had a right to question me and I had an obligation to answer. They would not have had the right to arrest me in the absence of actual evidence linking me to a crime.
Sorry, once you get away from the bright lights and distracting noises, life doesn't seem all that difficult to figure out. :)
But yes, America has turned into its own worst enemy and I just cannot fathom how we're turning on one another, the rest of this planet and wondering why the rest of the world (including our "friends") think we're freaking NUTS ... we ARE ... and I just don't get it.
We abandoned our BORDER SECURITY and cut back on INS, Border Patrol, CIA, NSA, NRO, FBI, you name it ... by paying SHIT for salaries, we drove out the talent. By rounding up ANYONE of "Middle Eastern appearance," We've driven off those who could clue us in to what's going on, translate the data and interpret it in proper dialects, and with the creation of the Mighty "sky marshall" we've decimated the border cops even further ... we've cut BACK on intelligence, interpretation and Dpeartment of State (please pass the sweet and sour shrimp), cut back on our local cops, and all for the sake of a cheesy $300 tax cut and many previous tax cuts that literally cut our balls off. And for what? A "Contract *ON* America?"
Sorry, I once worked for government. I couldn't afford to do it any longer. Those in security related fields (as I was) along with cops, Border Patrol, INS and many other agencies so obscure to be worse than mentioning the Tetragrammaton with one's lips for what would happen to you for even dropping the letters, along with those in the military who would lose their lives in whatever battles we choose get paid *SQUAT* ... no WONDER this happened to us ...
So what's the solution? Another TAX CUT and budget cuts to follow? Yep, we can have our cake and eat it too, and it won't cost a DIME. Believe that, and I'll sell you a bridge. Cheap. Fact is, the political pursuasions that got us INTO this are the same ones who are now failing to LEAD ... and the bedwetting American people of both left and RIGHT wings are actually eating UP this crap and believing every word of it. Yep, beat up a towelhead for Christ. That'll do it.
In the meantime, sell your stocks, buy gold, hedge oil and hide in the corner. Sheesh. Beating up Sikhs and bombing Islamic temples will solve everything. Wipe 'em off the face of the earth and we'll be at peace again. I sit here in disbelief myself (which is why I sat on the sidelines) because we're all in a tither because some *PUNKS* got lucky and caught us with our pants down.
I grew up with "we're going to get nuked by the Russkies, nationwide in a NANOSECOND, EVERYBODY DIES!" ... I'm sorry ... a bunch of lucky punks who managed to sneak past an emasculated (BY CONGRESS - Who controlled Congress until long after Shrub got elected, ruling by tax cuts uber alles? Uh-huh) National Security, Law Enforcement and Military (whose "employees" are this far away from Food stamps if not actually USING THEM) and are so small in force compared to what is needed to protect us managed to take over four airplanes, knock down a bunch of buildings and kill thousands.
Now, I lost 14 people I knew PERSONALLY when they were killed by the towers falling, so I'm not "limp wristed" by any means. But we have a SERIOUS "failure of scope and context" here, which is why I sat on the sidelines. Destroying lower Manhattan, a piece of the Pentagon, and a crater in Pennsylvania is most surely "serious stuff" ... BUT ... it isn't quite on the pale of scope of having 102 cities levelled under Soviet mushrooms either. And THAT is the point I'm placing here. In the greater scheme of things, our collective reaction is a bit extreme. Yeah, go take out the Taliban, they didn't turn over the punks, but the REAL problem here is the failure of our lawgivers to provide the FUNDING to have a proper security infrastructure ...
And before we drag out "Bubba" for another beating, let's remember WHICH party it was that insisted on tax cuts and budget cutting. If we really feel the need to beat people up for what happened, can't we PLEASE, for once pick the RIGHT TARGET for it?
But that was my motivation for what I said, I appreciate the compliment, but reality is just so ... real ... and about time we started whipping the CORRECT butts ... if we allow the politicians to blame *US* for their incompetence, we might as WELL submit to the Nuoveau Taliban ... America didn't fail us, our damned CONGRESS did ... and so far, they're walking away just like Osama ... No.
It never ceases to amaze me how WELL propaganda from "official news sources" always clears those responsible for the mess while turning the rest of us on each other, never holding the culpable culpable. My point here - we're having OUR rights taken down because politicians screwed up? Might have been valid policy for Stalin, but it really cheeses me off that the TRUE perps here will get re-elected ...
"But we have a SERIOUS "failure of scope and context" here, which is why I sat on the sidelines. Destroying lower Manhattan, a piece of the Pentagon, and a crater in Pennsylvania is most surely "serious stuff" ... BUT ... it isn't quite on the pale of scope of having 102 cities levelled under Soviet mushrooms either. "
Agreed. But the danger we DO have to guard against (and I agree that our approach to preventing it has been pretty poor) is the detonation of a nuclear bomb in midtown Manhattan sometime in the next 20 years. Still not the destruction of the nation, but well worth spending real money and effort to prevent (not to mention of personal interest to all of us who live and work in or near the target zone).
I fear that it will be MUCH sooner that that if we all continue on our present course of mentality, and action that speaks to that mentality. I fear as soon as 2004. I won't go into how I had sensed that the 1993 event wasn't the end and what I envisioned, it'd be dismissed as BS so I won't bother. But as long as we have a "22 caliber mind in a 38 caliber world" we're in for some pretty serious chit. And as long as we have this mind spewing cowboy movies, we're only going to cheese off the world worse. Bullies get deposed. And that's our "world image" ... damned shame.
Back before January 2000, we were actually engaged in the core issues that serve to justify the twisted minds that did this to us. Would it have saved us from this? Pure speculation of no value in today's terms. But what HAD been a pursuasive "America" has pretty much lost most of its international credibility. I know most of us tend to be parochial, but in the nature of what I do for a living, I'm CONSTANTLY being told PRECISELY what the rest of the world thinks of "America" by my own customers in email each and every day. It ain't pretty. :(
By calling the head of Russia, "Pooty-poot," our Shrub has even lost THEIR backing ... unless we demonstrate to the world our unanimity and our resolve, I worry about what's to come. We're truly rudderless at the moment, and THAT will determine where we go. I'm not half as worried about Saddam as I am worried about Pakistan ... they HAVE nukes. Already. Steal them, find a missle and it's all Academic. With what we have for "leadership," you can BET I'm sheeting a peekle.
We have FEWER Border guards than we had before. We have "sky marshalls" flipping out, we have LESS intelligence than we had before, and we have fewer cops. Our "anointed" has left us MORE vulnerable than we were before ... but then again, up where I live, there's nothing WORTH blowing up ... sad statement for sure ...
But what our ELEPHANT party in Deecee has PROVEN, "we don't give a CRAP about New York" ... NYC got short-changed despite the efforts of NY's congresscritters (except for "Congressman KING" of Staten or Long Island) and all the security seems to be going to Enron's HQ, ain't covering NYC's expenses ... and just in case nobody KNEW this, but *OUR* state troopers have been reassigned to BORDER DUTY because the FEDS aren't BOTHERING with stopping illegals coming across the Canadian border!
Now newsflash, 6 "Al Qaeda type individuals" were busted up near Buffalo and *WE* have to provide a "border patrol???!??!!!!" THANK YA, SHRUB! Wish OUR cops were patrolling *HERE*, that's what we PAY for. But yeah, Al Qaeda's got a TRUE BUDDY in Shrub and his "at a secure, undisclosed location" bedwetter politicians ... yep, I feel safe. Yep.
But yeah, unless "regime change" happens at home, your fears are more pronounced as a possible reality than they've been in nearly 20 years. :(
I should sue you for plagurism, because everything you've said in your last few post is exactly what I've been thinking. Of course your way with words is better than anything I could come up with :-)
I have some advice for everybody for the November elections, vote AGANIST every single INCUMBANT on the ballot, no matter what you think of them. The longer these politicans stay in office, the more they don't give a shit about the people.
Be happy to split the royalties with ya. :)
But yes, if they're *IN* then they need to be *OUT* ... "regime change" begins at home.
I think I get your point. To wit, we would be a lot lot lot better if we had Al Gore in office. Pardon me while I go and puke.
No, what I was saying is we'd be a whole lot better if we didn't have Dick Armey, Newt Gingrich, B1 Bob Dornan, Trent Lott and a lot of other morons who cut the wrong budget. As to Gore or Shrub, I think we can agree that a coffee pot could do a better job than either. :)
Kevin, based on media reports on CBS & ABC today a few things need to be pointed out.
1)In 1998, the FBI alerted the Whitehouse of evidence that terrorists of the Al-Queda mob were exploring the use of comercial pilots as terrorists.
2) That same report indicated that there was strong evidence that they planned to use commercial jets as guided missles and specifically identified the WTC as a primary target.
3) At that time, our President, was more concerned with stains on a blue dress, stains on the oval office carpet and using monica Lewinsky's genitals as a humidor.
4) The president took the warnings seriously and had cruise missles fired at known Al-Queda bases in hopes of nailing Osama bin Laden.
5) The media began a feeding frenzy - portraying the president's actions as an attempt to divert attention from the aforementioned stained dress, stained carped, Dominican cigars and Monicas vagina.
One conclusion that could be drawn is that this nation would be an entirely different, stronger nation today with at least 2,800 more citizens had we not had a president so bereft of character. The fact that he's liberal democrat should not be considered significant except for the fact that Ted the Swimmer, LBJ JFK RFK & Jimmy Carter etc were also liberal democrats, most with serious moral failings.
Yep, and on January 20, 2001, the records show that the entire portfolio that suggested WTC would be hit and soon was turned over to the current administration. The current administration dismissed it and refused to read the documentation until AFTER the event. That came out in the congressional hearings. While I'm no defender of the Bubba, it DID happen on Shrub's watch. And now a year later and with an office of "homeland security" we now have FEWER people on the borders and FEWER intelligence officers on duty than we had a year ago.
Hope you don't take this the wrong way, but Bubba's been gone for a while, the information is ACKNOWLEDGED to have been out there prior to the event, but the current administration was asleep at the switch. I say this not to cast blame, but as an invitation for our "leadership" to get with the program ... can't blame Bubba if it happens again.
You know, kevin, you are correct. The current administration had information about that mess along with many others. Figuratively - all standing knee deep in a field of horse-shit and not knowing where to start. My only point is that for every trent Lott and Newt Gingrich theres a ted kennedy and an Al gore.
And for every Lenora Fulani there is a Train Dude...
Well since Ms, Fulani is an acknowledged anti-semite, I guess that means that I am not one. Great point ron.. Some times you make a lot of sense.
You're welcome - but I didn't limit that to her antisemitism. She's as liberal as can be in the pc sense - but she has lot in common with you.
In short, she'd make a pretty reasonable running mate for you.
Wanna have a chuckle? She's working for Conservative Tom Galisano for NYS Governor now. That's one of the things I love about extremists. Twirl far enough out to the left or to the right and like those old cheap videogames, you pop out and show up on the other side of the political screen. Sorta like Larouche. :)
The ends of the political spectrum are shaped like a V. The center is much farther from the ends than they are to each other.
I'd submit that the shape would have to be more like an inverted V or more people would naturally slide into the middle. :)
Hah! That's a good one.
Old Maryland political joke: What is the difference between a Conservative Democrat and a Liberal Republican? Nothing.
I am of the former. A Conservative Democrat in Maryland politics is someone who does not believe that you can solve every problem by throwing money at it.
However we are not opposed to spending for things like public/rail transit. Benefits everybody.
Maryland's old political joke is bipartisanship in upstate New York. NO difference here either. It's gun-toting upstaters vs. bedwetting downstaters here. :)
I noticed last time out she was in the camp of Pat Buchanan, America's original neo-Nazi. Good point by you Unca Selkirk. Go below the water line and left and right wingers are all the same. They consider the majority of the people the great ignorant unwashed. I'm surprised Americans haven't seen them for what they are.
Most people couldn't be bothered I guess ... they'll wait to see what Tom Cruise thinks and go with that. Don't mind me though, I'm a radical fundamentalist middle of the roader. Good things ONLY get done when people find a common ground and work on things from there. That's why I go off on the high and mighty, the self-anointed and the maniacal. Something bad happens to a lot of people when they get (s)elected ... they THINK they're the Godhead. Me and my trusty little hatpin. :)
But no political party has a lock on morons.
Ron.....you guys are breaking my conservative heart and going way off topic. Lenora Fulani was a card carrying disciple of Presidential Candidate Lyndon H. LaRouche long before he went off the deep end casting his membership out of CPUSA. Ron and Steve....I e-mailed the both of you beause I see something going wrong that must come to an end. Gurzev Singh gets the Electrical Distribution Department Dickweed medal of the year....Ron and Steve must remain friends who disagree. I've been up nights trying to come up with something to brighten up the crews day....some CIs just found out that they will not become permanent employees till Spring or Summer of 2003. You guyz wanna go at eachother with shoepaddle edges...go right ahead because I finally learned over many years of 'diverse' work that there does come a time when faith and good works must come to an end.
As for Gurzev Singh, I would not waste one micron of a lead pencil writing the G-2 up.....there are proper ways for the disposition of a groundhog when you don't have a BIG dog about your farmstead. CI Peter
Steve's a great TA professional.
By the way, I have avoided calling him by his real name on Subtalk because I thought he preferred that. I also know exactly what he does and have great respect for it - but I don't post that or refer to it on Subtalk because I do not have his permission to do so.
We snipe on occasion- the sniping stays on Subtalk and doesn't exist outside of the Subtalk ring.
Couldn't agree more ... I lose a lot of people when it seems that I am selecting one party as being brighter than the other and that's not the case. I guess you have to WORK with politicians to really get to ID the smell ... but what we have here is a long term situation that has resulted in the starvation of public safety and national security owing to a long long history of underfunding. This has nothing to do with who's in the White House, it's CONGRESS that's responsible for this mess. Folks are invited to evaluate their OWN elected fish and decide if those "budget priorities" contained wisdom or not.
But the bottom line is that anybody who's really CAPABLE of doing the job isn't stupid enough to WANT it. So we get what's left as leaders. :)
It wasn't just the administration that acted with a singular lack of brains. The 9/11 terrorists were airheads too. I mean, really, if you're going to attack the WTC, you don't do it at a time of day when many if not most of the people working in the buildings haven't arrived for work. Duuuh! Oh, and the Pentagon has to be one of the dopiest choices imaginable. While there may have been a symbolic meaning behind hitting the center of the U.S. military, anyone with half a brain would realize that the Pentagon is one of the hardest-to-destroy buildings anywhere. If Mohammed Atta & Co. had any sense, they would've hit the WTC in mid-afternoon, and aimed for the Capitol instead of the Pentagon. And they could've hijacked a plane out of MSP and hit the Mall of America, or maybe taken one out of MCO and hit Disney World. I guess we should be thankful they were stupid, otherwise the death toll could've been four or five times what it actually was.
Maybe as you said Pete they were stupid but they are, nevertheless, dangerous. Sometimes you can figure out what smart people are going to do if you have smart people trying to figure them out. But a stupid person is more difficult to figure out because those trying to figure him out are usually smart people. Remember, Al Gore didn't get elected-----you know the guy who almost flunked out of divinity school but beat the expulsion by dropping out first.
>>> I mean, really, if you're going to attack the WTC, you don't do it at a time of day when many if not most of the people working in the buildings haven't arrived for work <<<
Don't underestimate the intelligence of the terrorists. You are assuming that the goal was maximum casualties. The number of casualties was secondary to hitting their targets. Another 10,000 deaths would not have been that much more shocking than the 4,000 who were killed. There were other operational considerations such as the number of passengers that would have to be controlled on the aircraft, and finding four trans continental flights taking off near the targets at the same time, and possibly passing through airport security at the end of a shift rather than the start when the security personnel would be more alert.
>>> the Pentagon has to be one of the dopiest choices imaginable. While there may have been a symbolic meaning behind hitting the center of the U.S. military, anyone with half a brain would realize that the Pentagon is one of the hardest-to-destroy buildings anywhere <<<
The Pentagon was probably a secondary target, chosen when the hijackers could not find or guide the aircraft well enough to hit the White House or the Capitol, which were probably the primary targets.
Tom
If Bubba had the info, why didn't he act on it? You know - like beefing up security or intelligence gathering or maybe gwtting Osama bin laden? Seem to me Bubba had more time to act that the current administartion.
Actually, if you'll forgive me for putting this link in here, sounds like the source of the information you've been after has some serious difficulties with reality. And while I consider Salon magazine as a modern day "Village Voice", the link below does do a fairly good job of pulling together the facts. If you have some time, do take a look at it ... as I've said, I'm no Bubba booster but having been a journalist I despise propaganda even more than the politicians and their spinmeisters who create the propaganda ...
http://vander.hashish.com/articles/911/dontblameclinton.html
And while there's plenty of blame to be spread for past misdeeds and malfeasance, ain't been SQUAT done to FIX it ... and THAT is what I have a problem with. The past is the past, the question is what is the FUTURE? And so far, I ain't seen anything larger than a $5 ...
and in the interest of balance, here's Sullivan's original article as well (Sullivan is the SOURCE for what you've mentioned)
http://vander.hashish.com/articles/911/whileclintondiddled.html
Destroying lower Manhattan, a piece of the Pentagon, and a crater in Pennsylvania is most surely "serious stuff" ... BUT ... it isn't quite on the pale of scope of having 102 cities levelled under Soviet mushrooms either. And THAT is the point I'm placing here. In the greater scheme of things, our collective reaction is a bit extreme.
At last! Someone else sees things my way.
To put things in perspective, those who still see 9/11 as Armageddon ought to rent videos of Fail-Safe and War Games, two excellent flicks in which a mechanical failure and a hacker, respectively, nearly bring on nuclear holocaust. You can really feel the tension in both movies and sense the dread that people lived under until the end of the Soviet empire. The two are different in many ways; Fail-Safe is stark and businesslike, while War Games is more light-hearted (plus Ally Sheedy adds a tasty snack of eye candy), but they both make their points very well. What we may fear from a bunch of camel f***ers today is NOTHING compared to what we feared just over a decade ago from the Evil Empire. How soon we forget.
Oh Ally Sheedy ALWAYS gives me a roaring stiffie, although BREAKFAST CLUB was the one I *truly* got off on her in ... heh. MY kinda babe! Hippie Chick! Sandra Bullock in earlier films. (I'm *such* a slut! heh)
But yeah, DUCK AND COVER ...
(for you lucky dogs with "broadband" this video will clue you in to what WE lived through)
Download: DiVX 4.11 19069.avi (31.1 MB)
VCD 19069.mpg (96.7 MB)
MPEG-2 19069.mpg (256.4 MB)
Or STREAMING via "Real Player (ack)" ...
DSL/Cable
Dialup
... and ya WONDER why we did drugs ... something ELSE we forgot about once the Berlin wall came down ... "I could die in 15 minutes, might as well get laid ..." :)
Yeah, Una Kev! Our ol' buddy Heypaul lent me a copy of "Duck 'n Cover"...brought back memories and gave me some laughs: I mean looking bad at some of that stuff now is hilarious -- like jumping off your bike when you see the nuke flash and balling up into the fetal position is going to save your ass from the gamma rays! ;) Priceless stuff! (much like another 'ancient' instruction film, "Reefer Madness").
Thanks for posting the duck and cover stuff, Selkirk.
The film was funny as hell. The information about injuries from atom bombs was accurate, though not complete, but the advice wasn't worth a whole lot.
Of course, holding up a sheet of newspaper to stop a .38 bullet is better than nothing. At least you tried...
Kind of like Wile E. Coyote holding up a parasol hoping it can protect him from a boulder or anvil that's about to fall on top of him and flatten him.
LOL!
One of my all time favorites was "Doctor Strangelove" which, after seeing what the government was spreading on the pastures at the time seems more like a documentary than a satire. Completely inappropriate for here, but let's say that while I was in government service, I obtained a LOT of training in nuclear event management and exposure to a lot of details as to the TRUTH about what would happen if the Russkies dropped the big one. But I won't do it here. Suffice it to say that even the BIG bombs wouldn't have taken out as big an area as was claimed, the casualties would not have been as bad as they claimed and WEATHER had the MOST influence on what would happen. But it'd be a REALLY bad day to have a picnic nonetheless. I'll leave it there.
Oh yeah, the whole POINT of saying what I said in my last was that NEW YORK CITY WAS *NEVER* A TARGET! The Russkies had no intention of wasting a nuke on NYC. The plan was to take out Long Island and areas surrounding NYC where there were military targets and allow NYC to fold because supplies had been cutoff. By leaving NYC intact, the strategy was to turn NYC into a huge hole of resource needs that would paralyze the northeast trying to resupply it. What the Russians didn't know was that Eisenhower planned on just roping off NYC and leave everyone within the boundaries to kill one another for the remaining scraps. Not a pretty scene.
But NYC was never a target for a direct hit. Something our terrorists haven't figured out.
Watched too much "Escape from New York?"
Heh. That really was a crappy movie. Nope, read too many Air Force reports when I worked for the state and got involved with rules and regulations for the Emergency Broadcast Service years ago. I was involved with the group that set up "EAN" with the FCC and state and local agencies and set up the rules for how weather and national alerting was done, including "all channel interruption" for cable and broadcast. Stuff like that.
In the 1960's our bombs were becoming "cleaner," that is, delivering a very effective blast effect with a relatively small warhead so that fallout is minimized. The Russians still had (and have to this day) a larger percentage of warheads which wuld detonate near the ground, have yields much larger than ours, and spread a lot of fallout, leading to more radiation exposures longer term.
Yes indeed. And the navigation systems on the warheads were nowhere near as accurate either. What I was referring to though is effects that were never really disclosed to the public such as "atmospheric attenuation" as an example. On a hot humid day, most of the direct radiation is absorbed by water vapor in the air. On a cold, dry winter day, the effects would have been a LOT more substantial. Fallout and its propagation is influenced by wind patterns of course. But the actual effects were overblown compared to the actual reality. Still, if you inhaled a particle, you were done regardless of where or when.
Heh. Got "Madness" as well as "The Cocaine Fiends" and "Dating do's and don'ts" ... ah, nothing like feel good political whitewash, now in COLORS! :)
>>> War Games is more light-hearted (plus Ally Sheedy adds a tasty snack of eye candy), but they both make their points very well <<<
I just watched most of "War Games" last week. IIRC the movie was made in 1983 and really looks like a period piece now. The protagonist high school student hacker is using a computer with what look like 8" floppy diskettes, a monochrome character only display, and connects his computer with an acoustic modem. He uses a software war dialer to locate computers in a certain telephone exchange, and starts it on one day, and on the following day it has not yet completed dialing all 10,000 numbers in the exchange.
Tom
Yep, and the internet is STILL like that here in "Tech Valley" ... 36k baud is "high speed" in Brunoland ...
Just to check, are you really saying that Verizon does not offer DSL anywhere in the Albany Metro area? Or do you mean just not in your town?
They offer it in a few VERY limited areas. Out in Guilderland (no small town) and out where I am, it is NOT available because instead of having a "real" switch, we're on one of those "SLIC" systems which are SUPPOSED to be used ONLY for emergency restoration of service after a major disaster. Alas, here in NYS we have the Public Service Commission who feels that New York is a continuing disaster, so the use of substandard telco central office equipment is justifed for the highest phone rates on the planet.
You can't even get a T1 here. But they call us "Tech Valley" ... go figger. :)
The crude computer gear (mostly obsolete even in 1983) shown in War Games was the subject of some discussion on nitpickers.com. One point made very clear in the movie was that David's parents had a very dim view of his computer obsession. As a result, it would not have made sense for him to have had state-of-the-art gear, as there was no way he could have afforded it.
Whatever the case, I still say War Games was a terrific flick. And if you want to see a real period piece on a similar subject, rent the video of the made-for-TV flick The Day After, made right around the same time at the height of the "nuclear freeze" movement. It looks like something out of a competely different era, which in a way it is. Scenes that should be dramatic or chilling usually come across as ludicrous. Three much better post-nuclear war movies are Threads, Testament, and the best one of all, but very hard to find on video, On the Beach.
>>> The crude computer gear (mostly obsolete even in 1983) shown in War Games <<<
Hey, wait a minute! When I went to see the movie when it first came out, the computer set up looked pretty much like what I was using in my business, except I had a high speed 1200 baud Hayes modem (my 300 baud acoustical modem had already been retired). I was still using cp/m. My 8" diskettes were my mass storage devices with 1.1 Mb on each of two drives, while my "A" (and virtual "B") drive 5 1/4" diskette had a 90 Kb capacity. I had accelerated my Z80 CPU from 2 MHZ to 4 MHz, so I could hardly imagine any reason to need more speed. I still have four of those computers, but I have not tried to call tech support recently.
Tom
>>> There was no "misunderstanding" of any kind, only bias-based harassment. <<<
What harassment are you referring to? According to the story "NYPD traced the license plate that the jumpy maintenance worker saw and quickly tracked down Singh. They confirmed with the MTA that he was supposed to be in the hatch." That does not sound like harassment to me. The problem came when they closed off the area delaying scheduled 9/11 observances and subway service. It is more police embarrassment than police harassment.
Tom
According to the story "NYPD traced the license plate that the jumpy maintenance worker saw and quickly tracked down Singh. They confirmed with the MTA that he was supposed to be in the hatch." That does not sound like harassment to me. The problem came when they closed off the area delaying scheduled 9/11 observances and subway service. It is more police embarrassment than police harassment.
What's disturbing about the whole thing is that the NYPD certainly isn't going to express its regrets for the way it overreacted and inconvenienced so many people. They'll just mutter something about the grave terrorist threat. Besides, they're "heros" and therefore above criticism.
You've known me for a while - I have a response down below near this one to my own opinions on what is and what might be ... but I wouldn't blame the cops ONE BIT ... that what we had here was a Sikh (and HIGHLY unlikely to be Al Qaeda (let the spelling freaks debate "Qaddaffi" please - Arabic does NOT translate to English, give it up) but that aspect REALLY shouldn't matter ... cops should challenge *ANYONE* coming out of an underground egress that doesn't say "SUBWAY" above the entrance because you don't know WHAT loose wingnut might have planted some C4 under there to "get even with ... (X)" ...
The *****MEDIA***** played up, "It was an innocent SIKH" (and I'm sure just on a STEREOTYPE that he was, Sikhs aren't into Wahabbi Islamic nonsense to begin with) ... but the REALITY is "dis street bitch came up through the metal cover, and he didn't split heads or tails" ... reality, don't care WHO it is, if they were down there, WHAT'SUP!!! Who the HELL are YOU? Fair question for ANYBODY.
CNN, FozzNooze, whatever - your reporters, your "bearers of truth through freedom of depress" are so completely FULL OF ... But given the circumstances, the report that it was "someone in a Turbine" or whatever matters *NOT* ... someone came out of a manhole, and it could be terrorism, it could have been casing out a way to get at a bank vault for a heist, it could have been some dumbass thinking that "taking of Pelham 1-2-3" only needed THIS trick to make the ripoff work, any NUMBEr of possibilities.
If it wasn't for 9/11, I would have hoped someone would have called the cops ANYWAY ... whoever was "busted" shouldn't have mattered until the reason FOR it was determined. This story shouldn't have been a "potential terrorist" story in the FIRST place!
PLEASE folks ... turn OFF CNN! REALLY! Ignore NBC ... there's terrorists in EVERY woodpile ... give up! Sheesh.
"What's disturbing about the whole thing is that the NYPD certainly isn't going to express its regrets for the way it overreacted and inconvenienced so many people. They'll just mutter something about the grave terrorist threat. Besides, they're "heros" and therefore above criticism."
I've just decided that I can neither read nor respond to every post in this very provokative thread. However, i'd like to air two thoughts here:
First, Peter raises the true crux of the matter. Did the police over-react or did they take prudent action under the circumstance? I'm sure everyone can pretty well predict where most of us fall on this question. You can look seriously about this question and all of the side arguments become just so much bullshit.
How each of us sees this incident defines our social and political outlook. No hypotheticals here like "what if it were in your neighborhood?" or "what if it were your daughter?" etc. The simple matter is we've all pretty much beat our views to death and we haven't moved the scrimmage line more than a yard or two in either direction.
Second, in spite of those of us who get hot about political, we've managed to keep it pretty civilized (except for Ron and the guys on the liberal side :))
No point here other that it's nice to see.
Thank you once again TrainDude. Now that Peter Rosa brought out the significant point, I can speak. Signal Maintainers report to supervision on time to start their respective shifts by signing in. They go to their assigned places of inspection during the shift and continuously report in by radio and/or telephone until the end of their shift and do not return to their 'home base.' There can be abuses....chances are 'Turban Man' is a Signal Maintainer and changed out of working clothes in a street vault before surfacing upon the street. Every poster was correct, law enforcement was correct, the maintainance worker who notified 911 was correct at a time of heightened security and 'Turban Man'.....was a dummy affixing his traditional Sikh head dress without NYCTA identification as he surfaced upon the city street.
I need something better than our 'blue safety helmets.' Like wearing a plastic bag over my head and I'm losing the hair Rogaine brought back. Wrapped towels will not provide proper protection...some how I always manage to whack my head against something Redbird undercar or pantograph gates. Maybe the Rooskies had the right idea....WW2 tankers helmets made of cushioned reinforced leather strapping. At least there would be room for my brain to swell and the persperation to cook off. CI Peter
Good points T.D., but for the record I don't see this as a political discussion at all, at least not in the customary liberal vs. conservative sense. I see it instead as a courage vs. paranoia issue. As I've noted time and time again, I am convinced that the terrorist "threat" is way overblown, that 9/11 was a one-time sort of thing. Lotsa people think the opposite, of course.
And, Peter, I'm one who disagrees with that point of view. 6 members of one sleeper cell arested in western NY State. 2 others are still at large. 2 other similar sleeper cells are known to exist in Detroit & Seattle. How many don't we know about? I also don't agree with the term, paranoia. I think we assess the risk differently. 68% of the people in this country agree with me according to Time Magazine. The leaders of most of the countries in the free world agree with me. What more need be said?
Since I know several NYPD officers, including command, personally, I am certain of two things:
1) They do the best they can, and they are sincere and honorable in their service
2) They can on ocasion, miss the niceties of good manners and not always be sensitive to the backgrounds of the people they interact with - and the shield does get it the way, if they let it.
Mayor Guiliani was aware of this and referred to it when he addressed a graduating class at the Police Academy a couple of years back.
I have confidence in "my" police dept. (I am proud of them and what they do) and support theirmission wholeheartedly.
Despite the forecast of sunshine it was a grey overcast morning at Euston Station, the meeting point of the September 2002 Subtalk Field Trip (London Branch).
Rob Morel, Fytton, and Simon Billis had managed to steal themselves away from the usual Saturday chores for a day of fun. The mission was to ride all lines of the Underground network and take in one or two oddities. Just to add a little spice to the proceedings London Underground had kindly closed the Met/Circle and Ham & City between Baker St and Farringdon in addition to the Met between Uxbridge-Harrow on the Hill and Piccnorth of South Harrow
The Victoria Line was easy and a quick dash to Warren Street was the end of that. A brief mention was made of the durability of the 67 stock, the oldest on the tube.
Warren Street was the changing point for the Northern Line and onto Waterloo. The point was made during the short ride on what was to become of Waterloo International when the woks at St Pancras were completed. It was felt that little benefit of the change of terminus was apparent especially with the rise of low cost airlines taking a big slice of the market and that even with better connections with the North of England changing trainsmay still be required.
As we left the Waterloo ticket area we were shocked to see that the gates ahead leading to the Waterloo and City line were closed and out task of doing all twelve lines may be left undone. To our relief a gate at the side was open and we decended to the steps for the ride to the Bank.
With the travelator at the Bank being out of service a short walk was all that was needed to put us on an Eastbound Central line service to Stratford. The chance to get some photos in the open was not passed by.
The Docklands to Canary Wharf was next so we scrambled into the front car for the railfan window. A photo stop Poplar was made before we entered the Legoland like station at Canary Wharf to enjoy the now much needed facilities.
In honour of our American friends we set out to give an American flavour to the day. We could think of no better way to do this than have coffee at Starbucks. The break was very welcome.
The Jubilee was next and a service was ready and waiting when we arrived on the Platform after descending the “Metropolis” (film made in around 1920 depicting life in the future) like escalator network.
To get to the East London Line we had to leave at Canada Water to ride the bets current operating stock the A60’s. The chunka chunka chunka of the Westinghouse compressor kept us company for the ride through Mark Brunel’s Thames tunnel and onto Whitchapel.
At last a rest was in sight for the long ride to Earls Court. Before leaving the station for our lunch stop the chance was opportunity was taken to get the photos of the destination boards promised to Rob form Atlanta. Rob was asked by a station assistant if his camera had flash. Upon being informed it was off he went away delighted to resume his platform patrol no doubt in anticiaption of a good crowd from the footabll match at Chelsea a few stops away.
The clock in our stomachs was telling us it was lunch time and continuing out themes the Subway sandwich bar just across the road from the station entrance beckoned.
Nothing else but a twelve inch sub was good enough for Rob and Simon whilst Fytton had some sort of non-descript meat in a six inch.
Lunch done, and it was time for some express running on the Piccadilly. With no Rayners Lane train in sight we boarded a Heathrow and settled back for the fireworks. We concluded that the operator having not had boiled eggs and soldiers for breakfast had decided to spoil our day with a mediocre run the Acton Town. Not slow, but just....boring.
With still no Rayners Lane service in sight and still yawning after the previous run, we caught the next District service to Ealing Common. Still no Rayners Lane, and we had almost given up when at last our 73 Stock came into view.
We passed two sets of derelict 83 stock and the infrequently used crossover to the southbound track as we came to rest on the South bound platform at South Harrow. As luck would have it our 238 bus was ready and waiting and whisked us across to South Harrow.
With trains starting and termination at Harrow on the Hill another photo session was enjoyed, and it was not long before were on our way again and off to Baker Street. We did wonder if Lippy was on duty at Wembley Park (see thetube.com website).
The Subs had, by this time kicked in a raging thirst, and Baker Street has retail outlets which sell Snapple. No contest here. Snapple is hard to find in the UK although I understand it is British owned. Although the cost is a staggering £1.29 ($2.00) it is well worth it and Mango, Kiwi and Lemonade were enjoyed.
With just a few lines left to ride it was now the turn of the Bakerloo and the platform was found after a diversion due to engineering work on the usual escalators. The short trip to Paddington was enriched by the view of the tiling spelling out “Great Central” (just for British James)this being the former name of Marylebone.
Rob showed us the secret way to the underground platform at Paddington and the finer points of the signalling arrangements as we wound our way passed the BBC complex and into the train shed at Hammersmith. We dodged through the traffic to get to the District line station and an Eastbound service to Gloucester Road so that we could complete our goal of riding every line with six stops to Embankment.
It was decided that as we had a little time we would ride the Kennington loop, but after a short ride to Kennington our plan was scuppered by a kindly but rare station assistant who suggested that we leave the train rather than riding to loop. We then decided to visit the site of the Moorgate crash but after a short northward journey it was found that the former tube now main line rail platforms were gated off and we were unable to view.
It was now late afternoon and agreed that as our task was complete our travels would end. Perhaps the same again next year or sooner.
Simon
Swindon UK
the view of the tiling spelling out “Great Central” (just for British James)this being the former name of Marylebone.
Yay!!!
It sounds like you manged to avoid the other big incident on Saturday. The Bakerloo Line was closed at Baker Street at about 19:30 due to a "Signal Problem" (i.e. due to anything but the signals). Trains were running from E&C to Piccadilly Circus, backing up all the way to Embankment. It's typical that I ended up in the middle of all this at Charing X (Trafalgar Sq), trying to get from Waterloo Int to Marylebone (grrr why did those b@$t@rd$ take away the Jubilee Line from Charing X just when it'd've been useful). I ended up getting the Northern Line to Warren Street then the #205 bus to Great Central Street, rather annoyingly costing me an extra fare. Fortunately, despite all this, I still made the 20:15 express.
Perhaps the same again next year or sooner.
I hope so. It was a pain that I couldn't get an earlier train out of Paris. On the other hand I've finally ridden the entire Métro and Tramway! Or at least excluding the tiny bit of the Auteuil loop which no longer sees through trains :(
Anyway - to some time soon!
Looking forward to seeing you on the next trip.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thanks for getting the photos! Good report. So are there two stocks on the District, 73 and 83? The 83 stock is the one with the single leaf doors, correct? I don't recall the 73 stock, what do they look like?
I shall mail you the pictures this evening.
Simon
Swindon UK
Some confusion in your post or the post you read initially!
..District Line runs D stock on the District 'Main' and makes use of C69/C77 stock on the Edgware Road-Wimbledon section.
1973 stock is used only on the Piccadilly
1983 stock,yep thats the one with single leaf doors,
built in two batches:
batch 1, units 3601-3630
batch 2, units 3631-3663
most of the batch 1 motors have been scrapped but the trailer cars survive,the batch 2 sets are stored at various locations around the system.
Rob
Just for further clarification -- the single-leaf door deep tube stock, now out of use after service on the Jubilee Line until 1999, is the 1983 stock (which has had a ludicrously short life. The single-leaf door subsurface stock is the D stock still operating on the District Line main line. We looked for the one set of the D stock that has been refurbished, but didn't see it; the rest looked shabby. The Circle, Hammersmith and City and Wimbledon-Edgware Road section of the District Line all use the C stock (and controllers sometimes shift trains unpredictably between these three lines upon arrival at Edgware Road). The East London uses A stock like the Metropolitan, all of which has now been refurbished. The set we rode in on the East London had a moderately artistic graffiti on it, which Simon took a photo of.
Fytton.
Wow, that was pretty intense! I loved the LU (but I did not care much for the 1992 stock) whilst I was there, and will return perhaps in 2003. Not this year, with hernia surgery looming October 2 (if I don't back out of it). They insist on fixing my "railfan window".
Did your 1972 MkII cry you a song as it came into Paddington?
wayne
While browsing on the MTA's webpage I stummbled on a page somewhat dedicated to the rebuilding of the 1 and 9.
Web Adress: http://www.mta.info/mta/1and9.html#top
Yes, I've seen that before. It's nice that the MTA dedicated the opening to all of that.
A nice webpage.
But as I mentioned in my posting yesterday, some of the service info is incorrect. The 1 and 9 do not run express in Manhattan (2 and 3 do); only the 3 goes to New Lots (2 goes to Flatbush, as always).
Of course, the real story is the superb job NYCT and its contractors performed to re-open this subway ahead of schedule.
Channel 7, covering the story on its 6 o'clock news Sunday night, incorrectly noted that the N/R Rector Street station was re-opening. Of course, that station has been re-opened since last November. The re-opening should refer to the N/R Cortlandt St. stop.
There was a message posted recently about a redbird fan trip for this December. Is there any further info about about it?
Who needs a fantrip? Go ride the 7 line.
The 7 line is now running quite a few R62 trainsets transferred from lines receiving the R142. The Redbirds will be gone before long.
Cars 1716-1720, 1721-1725, 1736-1740 and 1746-1750 are now at Corona Yard.
As far as R62As Singles are concerned, I've seen 2089 2090 and 2092 on the same train in service. I believe 2088, 2091, 2093-2095 are there as well but I am not so sure.
There are not too many R36 WH left on the 7 as more and more are headed to Concourse and/or 207 St for stripping. Within a few weeks, ALL R36 WH WILL BE OFF OF THE 7. There will only be R33 Singles, GE R36 and R62A on the 7 so get your rides and pics now while you can.
PS The RedBirds are also disappearing off of the 4 and 5 lines as well.
Question is who will be the last Subway Line to run RedBirds?
#9450 7 Flushing Local
#9292 4 Lexington Ave Express
Hopefully they'll keep some Redbirds through October. I want to catch one last ride on them next month.
Send the R-62A's back where they came from (the 1, 3, and the 6). AWFUL, AWFUL, AWFUL!
Subway Service Changes Set
The MTA-NY Transit Authority has announced service changed for both the A and the S (shuttle) lines for the weekend of September 14 to September 16.
Due to station work at the Howard Beach-JFK Station as part of the construction of the Port Authority’s AirTrain Service, there will be no subway service from the Rockaway Boulevard Station to the Rockaways. A special shuttle train will operate between the Far Rockaway/Mott Avenue Station and Beach 116 Street.
All A Trains will operate to Lefferts Boulevard during that weekend. Two shuttle buses will run to the Rockaway peninsula. One will run between Rockaway Boulevard and Beach 98 Street station, while the other will run from Rockaway Boulevard to the Howard Beach and Aqueduct stations.
Customers must transfer to the shuttle bus at Beach 98 Street to reach all of the other A line stations.
This from the Wave of Long Island a Rockaway newspaper. I saw trains yesterday and today go to Rockaway. Does anyone have any info?
Well, I rode the 1 train past Cortlandt Street today. I actually let one train go by at Chambers to prepare myself. I knew I wouldn't see anything, but the thought of traveling under what is essentially a cemetary was very hard for me. The TA has put up temporary walls near the edge of the platform. They're tan colored. I don't want to think about what the station looks like behind that.
I have two questions:
1. Why do trains blow the horn in a few short blasts while going by the station?
2. South Ferry is now using what looks like a new exit at the southern end of the station. What's going on with the old exit, and is the exit I saw in fact new?
Thanks.
First, it's not a cemetary. All of the remains, identied or not, recoverable or not, were in the tremendous heaps shipped to Fresh Kills. In the effect, remains were disinterred and relocated to Staten Island.
Second, the blasts may be to warn workers whoare still going over things, fixing this or that, etc. It is not a passenger station now, but there are still TA workers there, perhaps.
I hope I didn't offend anyone by calling it a cemetary. I just think of it that way even though I know they have removed everything.
You didn't offend anybody. If anything, my comment may have offended some people - but I stand by it because I believe it's a more honest and empowering way to look at the situation.
People don't die in cemeteries, the arrive there already dead.
This would be a battlefield, except that only one side did the firing. In civilized societies like the one in which we live, that would be a massacre site.
>>2. South Ferry is now using what looks like a new exit at the southern end of the station. What's going on with the old exit, and is the exit I saw in fact new?<<
The old exit/entrance was boarded up. The new one is now in the middle of the street outside the ferry terminal. My guess is that this ties in with the ferry terminal reconstruction. The old entrance was cramped and tight. Add to this exiting the terminal in the rain leaving you in the elements. My other guess is when reconstruction is complete, it will be an indoor access to #1/#9.
Bill "Newkirk"
Good news.
Good guesses. All correct.
The TA has put up temporary walls near the edge of the platform. They're tan colored. I don't want to think about what the station looks like behind that.
My understanding is that the former Cortlandt station was entirely demolished during the rebuild. I wonder if anyone saved any of the salvageable tilework, etc.?
I presume what's there now looks like an empty shell for a brand-new station built to 1918-ish specs (column spacing, etc.) I read somewhere they actually used the original plans, so it's probably pretty close to the original -- wonder if they made any provisions for ADA access (elevator pits, etc.)
Since it's really a sort of placeholder, there probably aren't even any hints of what was there before.
Does anyone on the board have access either to the plans for the rebuilt shell or any way to get in and TAKE PIX ???
My understanding is that the former Cortlandt station was entirely demolished during the rebuild. I wonder if anyone saved any of the salvageable tilework, etc.?
That is correct the entire station was removed. I think the Transit Museum does have one of Cortlandt's mosaic "ships". I don't know if that was removed before they but the "brick" wall up in the 70's that covered the station, or if they were removed from the token booth area after, or if any were taken out when they demolished the station. The old wall was still behind the bricks (similar to the Broadway Line's stations) right to the end.
"wonder if they made any provisions for ADA access (elevator pits, etc.)"
God, I hope so. Whatever is built at the WTC site, it's going to end up as a transit center -- even if the grand plans involving commuter rail don't happen, it will still be the transfer point between PATH and the subway system. A major transportation hub like that really SHOULD be **completely** accessible.
According to WMATA spokesperson Lisa Farbstein, when asked by the writer for Dr. Gridlock (Sunday's Wash Post) about Milan Metro escalators which uses a pressure-sensitive plate to start the escalator (to save wear and tear), her reply was "those type escalators are not legal in the United States".
Well NYCT riders, according to this person in the Washington Metro, NYC has illegal escalators and have been doing so since the 1960's.
NYCT no longer uses treadles to activate escalators. It uses sensors to determine when someone is approaching the escalator. Ms. Farbstein is correct.
David
What is wrong with treadles? It seems to me that any safety hazzard connected with treadles would also be present with any other kind of sensor.
with apologies for repeating from a month back, BUT, at least one reason for "locking" escalators in a single direction stems from a problem on BART in the mid 70's. An escalator reversed direction with a full complement of users. Previous to this accident many BART escalators were treadle actuated AND bi-directional.
at least one reason for "locking" escalators in a single direction stems from a problem on BART in the mid 70's. An escalator reversed direction with a full complement of users. Previous to this accident many BART escalators were treadle actuated AND bi-directional.
I'm sure there are safety devices that can eliminate this risk.
>>> I'm sure there are safety devices that can eliminate this risk <<<
Any accident at all will bring the question in court; "Wouldn't it have been safer if the steps were going in only one direction at a constant rate at all times?" Therefore American systems will have two separate stairways each operating at all times rather than saving energy by having an on demand system.
Tom
Except in the subway, where one is more likely to find a pair of escalators standing still -- or if one is moving, chances are it's going down.
I would like to think so. I cited the example because it happened here with the result that all BART system escalators are no longer treadle operated. Because some stations have only one escalator between fare control mezzanine and platform so it is set for 'direction of rush' much like a "third track".
BART when it opened thirty years ago had many treadle activated escalators, including some which could reverse--and one did with a serious load during rush hour at Balboa Park Station. ALL were then locked into one way operation and the treadles deactivated.
When the LIRR elevated the Merrick-Bellmore line in the 1970s, Bellmore (at least) received one reversing escalator with a treadle switch. Sometime afterwards, the treadle was apparently deactivated. The escalator has been running trackwards in the AM and streetwards in the PM.
Anyone know if a timer controls this, or is it reversed manually?
Sorry for the late followup, I didn't notice any of them in Milan (stayed on the trams) but both Vienna and Munich had treadle activated escalators in the Metro stations. Munich had several that were bidirectional.
>>> both Vienna and Munich had treadle activated escalators in the Metro stations. Munich had several that were bidirectional. <<<
Europe in general tends to be more in tune with conserving energy and more willing to expect citizens to know how to operate things like treadles.
Tom
I recall soemtime in ther 1970s or 1980s NYCT did have some passenger actuated escalators but there are none today.
BTW- S/As are not allowed to start or reverse escalators. If needed we can stop the escalator but have to call for supervision to restart (And then the supervisor has an elaborate proceedure including calling up wiht the info that they started an escalator.)
I don't know who it was, but, to my astonishment, I once saw someone start up an escalator. Unfortunately, this happened immediately after I had climbed up it. (But then I found a discarded, expired MetroCard with a $4.50 balance, so I was placated.)
Has anyone ever considered the possibility of connecting the ends of the E and F lines in Jamaica and forming a loop to turn trains? I don't use the F there but the E often seems congested on account of the time needed to turn trains. It isn't uncommon to have to wait some time at Sutphin or even between stations for a train to leave Jamaica Center. I know money is probably the killer here, but we're all dreamers at heart.
An interesting idea. But the money would be better spent extending the J further east into Jamaica, the F further into Jamaica Estates or to past it to Queens Village, or the E by underground line to Rosedale.
I wholeheartedly agree. Get us some subway service here in eastern Queens, and then we can talk about some loops.
:-) Andrew
I'd think that extending further east (and south) would be the best idea. However, I'd say a loop w/both clockwise and counter-clockwise operation sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, I think it's wishful thinking
Wayne
Who needs a loop? If trains were relayed east of Jamaica Center, capacity could be significantly increased. Locating the diamond crossover halfway between Supthin & Parsons was stupid and it limits E capacity to 12 TPH at this point.
The crossover was probably intended as just one of a group of them on the way to Rosedale.
When the line was truncated and Jamaica Center became a terminal, this is what we ended up with.
Perhaps in future this can be remedied.
Hello,
Can somebody give me a brief historical overview of the plans to extend the E or F to Rosedale? I grew up there many years ago, and have some recollection of these failed plans.
Thanks.
The E was originally intended to run along a converted LIRR ROW to Rosedale. Jamaica Center was NOT intended to be the terminal for Queens Blvd trains, only Nassau St. trains.
They could add a station or two along the E line right now if they wanted to. The tracks extend something like 2000 or 3000 feet beyond the turn past Parsons-Archer.
Indeed. A new E terminal at the end of that would be nearly half a mile from Jamaica Center (in track distance, not as the crow flies).
Is that a good place for a station?
I'm not sure about the direction of the tail tracks, but half a mile from Parsons/Archer would be about 172/Archer or something like that. That would allow a really very useful station at Merrick/Archer, so unless the tail tracks turn off somewhere, I'd say it would be a good place.
The tail tracks curve away from Archer Av on the upper level.
Now, I think Merrick is great for a station. You could extend the E there by installing a switch on the tail tracks and digginbg a new tunnel, or, easier, extend the lower-level J/Z tail tracks to Merrick and build your station.
And put a new crossover switch behind the station so as not to limit operation in the tunnel.
If we're talking boring new tunnels beyond Jamaica for the J/Z lines, a large monodirectional loop like on the 7 bis and 10 lines in Paris seems like it would serve the most people:
Outbound: Sutphin/Archer, Merrick/Archer, 180th St/Archer, 109th Av/Hollis, Francis Lewis Blvd/Hollis, Springfield Blvd/Hempstead, BELMONT PARK.
Inbound: BELMONT PARK, Springfield Blvd/Jamaica/LIRR Queens Village, 212th Pl/Jamaica, Francis Lewis Blvd/Jamaica, 190th St/Jamaica, 180th St/Archer, Merrick/Archer, Sutphin/Archer
Sounds good to me.
The upper level tail tracks curve south along 160 St. and end somewhere between Liberty Ave. and South Rd. at York College.
I'd like to see the lower level J/Z tracks extended to hook in with the four track line along Hillside Avenue, and two of these tracks extended over and down to Belmont Park. A good place to park and ride for Jamaica during the week, and a good place for the new Long Island Coleseum for the Islanders and, perhaps, a new basketball team.
Wow! That would be so easy to connect to the LIRR.
My wife and I drove up to the Rockhill Trolley Museum In Orbisonia PA yesterday. It is only about 60 miles from our home, and a very scenic trip over country roads. I enjoy getting up there at least once a year to see their progress.
We took two trolley rides out to their new end-of-line at Blacklog Narrows. This 1/2 mile extension was just put into service about a year ago. They have now completed a pocket siding (including switch) at Blacklog, but it does not have wire up yet. The new end-of-line is only about 200 feet from US 522.
On our first trip we rode on 1875, an vintage 1912 open car from Rio de Janeiro. This was my first ride on this car, and RTM has done a beautiful job of restoring it. It was the first time we had ever ridden on an open sided trolley. I may be old, but not old enough to remember the open sided trolleys in New York.
Between trolley trips, we got a tour of one of the car barns. It just happened to be a personal tour for the two of us, since no one else on our trolley elected to take it. Our tourguide was Ben Rohrbeck. It wasn't till later, when we visited the museum store that I realized what a historian Ben was. He has apparently authored more than two dozen trolley books.
Ben actually got us into 2743, a Philadelphia PCC, vintage 1947. It looks to be in pretty good shape. RTM has added a second pole, and is hunting a second control stand to double-end this PCC. They have no way of turning cars at the end of their line, and their passengers get very squeamish about backing up the 1 1/2 mile length of their line, to get back to the station.
I did not see the Philadelphia Liberty Liner on this visit, and suspect that it must have been in the other car barn. RTM has more than two dozen cars from various cities, but nothing from NY. I'd really love to see a Peter Witt again.
Our second ride was on York (PA) Railways #163, vintage 1924. This is one of my favorite cars at RTM, and I always enjoy riding it. I witnessed my first meet on this trip, when we passed 1875 at Altoff Siding. The siding has been in use for a number of years, but this is the first time that I actually witnessed a meet there. 1875 took the siding while we held the main. I suspect that when the new pocket siding is under wire, Altoff will have even less use. Our conductor-motorman for this trip was Jack Mowbray, a long time volunteer at RTM. He was able to answer every question that I threw at him. This was the first time in my memory that we took a trip with only a single crewman.
#163 seems to be developing a slight air leak at one of its doors, which results in the air compressor kicking on more than normal. That compressor reminds me so much of those of the old gate cars on the el in NY fifty plus years ago.
It was a nice way to spend a Saturday. Barb & I always come away from RTM, or any transit museum for that matter with additional respect for all of the volunteers, who spend so much of their time preserving and restoring the relics of our transit past.
Karl: Very interesting to hear about the museum in Pennsylvania. Glad that you had a nice trip.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I visited RTM in August, and I was impressed by all of the progress being made as well as by the friendliness of the volunteers! The Liberty Liner is indeed in the "other" barn, the new one built about ten years ago. It's in there along with a Red Arrow center-entrance car, a Hagerstown & Frederick box motor, a Red Arrow St. Louie, a Harrisburg semiconvertible, a Scranton snow sweeper, and a Delaware Bridge car among others. RTM has a very nice collection, and has acheived what few trolley museums have even approached: getting their entire collection under cover.
Frank Hicks
Frank, you're right about the friendliness. Everyone seems to go out of their way to make sure your visit is enjoyable. Both Ben & Jack told me to express interest in Barn 2 when we first get there in the morning, and I will get a personal tour.
Larry, I got a nice brochure for you about the Knox & Kane. IYWR, that is where the IRT el car is located.
I hope that you can get to visit the RTM. I think you will really enjoy it.
I have a Webshots page of photos taken at the Rockhill Trolley Museum last year. Photos of both SEPTA 2743 and Rio de Janeiro 1875 are included.
Bob, Thank you for the link! It looks like you were there for the Fall Spectacular last year.
It also looks like they had 2743 out, and you probably got a ride on it. I hope to get a ride on it someday.
It looks like you were there for the Fall Spectacular last year.
It also looks like they had 2743 out, and you probably got a ride on it.
Yes, yes, yes.
My wife and I visited and rode at Rockhill with Ben also serving as our guide this past July. It is nice to visit a trolley museum that cares for the equipment and is carrying out its plans. This museum is quite dependent upon the continuation and, indeed, the expansion of the East Broad Top. If the EBT prospers, this fine museum will get the kind of ridership and financial support it deserves. Yes, Ben is a prolific author, but due to many factors, yours truly had not even thought of pulling his books from the home library and bringing them out there for his endorsement. Fine fellow!
For those of you who have never been there, it is north of the PA Turnpike on US 522. There are a no places to stay in Orbisonia, but the town of Huntingdon to the north is very pretty, has the old Pennsy main line roaring through it, and provides many good hotels, tourist homes and restaurants.
BTW, just in case any of you don't know, East Broad Top has a fine collection of steamers.
BTW, just in case any of you don't know, East Broad Top has a fine collection of steamers.
Only one of which, #14, is currently capable of being operated.
There is a parr. report from Scott Snell in the Sept. issue of RailPace, which does in fact say that #14 is in service & #15 is not.
Was it #12 that was nicknamed "Millie" after the owner's daughter?
Was it #12 that was nicknamed "Millie" after the owner's daughter?
Yes, #12 is "Millie", but you can't prove it from any of my photographs. Just three years ago, four engines were steaming.
I can almost imagine that I can see "Millie" lettered under the #12 on the side of the cab.
Yes, it's there; it didn't show up because of the low available light in the roundhouse.
I'm surprised to hear that, Over the years I have ridden behind at least three of the steamers. I think they were #12, #14 & #17.
I did notice that they were using #14 last Saturday!
I did notice that he had already autographed several of the titles on sale at the RTM Museun store. I wish I had realized who he was while he was giving us our tour.
[... we rode on 1875, an vintage 1912 open car from Rio de Janeiro.]
Have operated 1850 from Rio at The Point. She was my first open can assignment.
Karl,
I remember 1875 with its green exterior and painted seats from when I was a young whipper-snapper. It looked good then, even better now in yellow with stained seats.
I'd really love for them to paint 2743 in PTC livery. I rode it to the end of the line last fall. The mountain stream on one side and steep rock face on the other make a loop impossible. Maybe the wire will be up for the pocket track by Fall Spectacular (which I read in Railpace may be canceled due to EBT woes). I hope to attend, since I didn't make it out there all summer.
I remember the Liberty Liner being stored outside and looking shabby before Carbarn II was built. Broken glass, faded paint, etc. Glad they found rooves for all the stock.
Did you hear the story about YR #163's curved sides, which are unique because they violated a patent, and the builder had to redesign subsequent production models to eliminate the feature?
I think I remember my dad telling me that Jack Mowbray's favorite car (also mine) is CA&E Interurban 315, which was the unfortunate victim of a recent arc-induced front-end fire. Damage is being repaired.
On Sunday, October 27 will be a Philly Route 23 PCC fantrip. I'm 90% sure I'm going. You can find details about it in the Upcoming Events section on this website.
Hopefully, in light of our Pennsylvania connection, we will meet soon!
Keystone Pete
Pete,
This was my first opportunity to ride 1875, so I don't remember the painted seats. The stained seats do look sharp.
I would just like to get the opportunity to ride 2743 once, no matter what color it was painted. I would not even complain if they had to back all the way from Blacklog.
Don't count on the pocket siding wire being up for Fall Spectacular, which is now scheduled for Oct 12th-13th. That's a lot of work to do in a few weeks.
I remember the Liberty Liner being stored outside too. It looked rough then. I wonder if they have had the opportunity to do anything to it since it is in Barn 2.
I got an upclose look at 315 in Barn 1. Some of the remaining platform wood is rotted. I have a feeling that they may have to remove the anticlimber to work on the platform. Repairs have not started yet.
My favorite at RTM is Johnstown 311. I really missed not riding on it this last trip.
Wait till you see the new pavilion that is being built alongside the store. It should be ready for Spectacular.
Karl
"I got an upclose look at 315 in Barn 1. Some of the remaining platform wood is rotted. I have a feeling that they may have to remove the anticlimber to work on the platform. Repairs have not started yet."
To replace floor sections on CA&E wood cars, removing the anticlimber isn't necessary, might be impossible and probably wouldn't help anyway. What you would need to do to replace the flooring sections is to rip out the T&G siding and the bottoms of the posts, and then replace the floor wood. This is because the ends of the car basically sit on the floor, and are attached to it with vertical through bolts. This is a problem because 315's posts are not rotted, which means I would hesitate to suggest that RTM remove them. There may not be much choice - you can make up a somewhat convincing charade by piecing in boards on the deck, but that won't help if the wood is removed all the way down through the blocking (as it is under the train door of 315) and it isn't a very good solution anyway. I know what I'm talking about - I've been helping rebuild a similar CA&E car at IRM in just this fashion! BTW, work actually has started - I saw the rebuilt train door at RTM, and it looks fantastic.
Frank "Does Anyone Care?" Hicks
[... Frank "Does Anyone Care?" Hicks]
I did read your post with interest.
I read it too, Frank, so I guess that I must care as well.
My observations were those of an amateur. I wouldn't begin to propose how to repair the car. I did not see the car after the fire, only after the burned and rotted wood was removed. There is quite a hole in the platform floor at the end of the car, just behind the anticlimber.
You surprised me with the door problem. I was not aware a door was damaged. I thought that the damage was confined to the car floor.
there was no evidence of anyone working on the car while I was there on Saturday. I got the impression from observation that everyone was concentrating on finishing the new pavilion.
Karl:
Glad you found my rant interesting. I certainly wouldn't expect very many people to know how CA&E cars are constructed - talk about a specialty subject!!! Also, for similar damage to a typical steam-road coach or "L" car, removing the anticlimber would likely be your first step. The problem with CA&E cars is that the bumper wraps around the vestibule corners, forming nearly a 180-degree curve at the corners, and forms part of the sides of the stepwells. This is all one piece of steel, which makes it impossible to "extract" it from the car structure horizontally.
The damage to the 315 was limited to the floor and to the bottom half of the train door. Fortunately, the door posts were not damaged. As I told the RTM volunteer who was showing me the 315 on my visit there, the 315 has some of the best posts (in terms of condition / rot, or lack thereof) I've seen on any preserved CA&E wood car.
Frank Hicks
I will be anxious to see the car repaired.
My wife said that it reminded her so much of the cars she used to ride between Thurmont & Frederick MD on the old Hagerstown & Frederick. This of course was back in the 1940's and early 1950's, before I knew her.
Unfortunately, very few pieces of equipment from the Hagerstown & Frederick have survived and none are complete. There's an H&F box motor body at Rockhill (stored in the big barn), a steel H&F carbody that has been cosmetically restored and placed on freightcar trucks that is displayed in Myersville MD, and a combine body that is on display at the Hagerstown Roundhouse Museum. There aren't actually very many of those "New England type" lightweight interurbans still running - some of the best are at Branford (like #775), and Seashore and Warehouse Point also have some in occasional service.
Frank Hicks
There is a piece of H & F equipment still extant in a lot across the street from the Cozy Restaurant in Thurmont, MD. It amounts to part of the floor, and a small portion of one end of the car itself. No trucks or anything like that. It has been there for years, and there is so little left that I was never able to determine what it was originally.
The Cozy Restaurant is unique in that it has an old B & O caboose built into the south wall of the restaurant. The caboose is still setting on rails.
The pols get face time (but they earned this one):
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-subway0916.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
i was at JFK (pronounced "gifk") today picking up a friend from a flight from miami. i was outside chillin when out of the blue, i hear something that sounds like an R142. i looked up, and testing was done on the Airtrain in the form of 1 car or a 2 car set. there was a motorman so i assumed the computer thingy hasnt been implemented. oh well, i got to see the airtrain in the flesh. i tried chasing it(yes, i tried to chase an Airtrain) but the terminal shuttle busses are as slow as blah. and i forgot to bring me a camera, !@#$. oh well, i cant wait to take a ride on that sucker
Good for you. I would chase an Airtrain if I had the chance.
Story:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/15/knoxville.spill/index.html
3 freight engines hauling 141 cars - very impressive hauling ability.
This derailment is messy...
It was even hauling Military Equipment!
-AcelaExpress2005
How does one apply for the motorman's job at Airtrain? What are the requirements?
How does one apply for the motorman's job at Airtrain? What are the requirements?
That is sort of an existential question, as AirTrain will be ZPTO.
Unfortunately, carbon-based lifeforms need not apply.
But if you're a computer, then maybe you can be a valuable addition to the team. Unfortunately, they've already done all of their robot hiring.
LOL
There is no motorman. Automatic operation.
However, you can inquire at the Port Authority AirTrain offices on Archer Avenue in Jamaica about AirTrain related employment. Most likely the openings would be with the contractor (ie you would work for Bombardier, which operates the AirTrain service for the Port Authority).
Go to www.panynj.gov and check it out.
They did most of the hiring in late 2000. I passed at the time.
The first training classes were in 2001. They were really serious about training and being ready for an early opening.
Yes, they did hire a lot last year. But you never know who dropped out. A phone call or visit to the PA costs you nothing.
Until it opens I think there is a list.
I went thru a whole process and residents of certain areas were targeted.
Make the call just don't hold your breath.
AND the pay stinks, it's worse than SIRT.
At my interview I was told five governemtnal agencies had to approve me NYS DOL, PATH, Federal DOT and I assume some NYC entity and the State DOT. It has been almost two years so I no longer recall and did post it here at one point ages ago.
That is why they had such giant hiring sessions.
At least it is a good sign of who they will hire! CI Peter
Well DOL loved me because I was on unemployment at the time and if i took the job later it wpuld count on their quota even if I was currently employed when I started. DOT was happy because I had passed a US Treasury background check a few months before and they would not have to spend any time on that, NYC liked me because I live in NYC and in the Jamaica postal district.
The Treasury clearance was REALLY an accomplishment the rest were accidents.
There is a hidden point in all of this....you did have to undergoe an extensive security and background check and you did pass presumably even if you have yet to receive a job offer. System safety is a big priority now, more than ever before and mistakes have been made. Just 'read into that' and don't ask anymore. CI Peter
I did recieve a job offer and said no.
My point was it is not going to be easy to get a job there as a walk-in after they made such a production of creating a list of sorts.
The original poster wanted a job there.
Like TA, PA is a 'get your foot into the door and move up' job. Thirty years ago, I was willing to take any building maintainance job with AT&T to get in....tradigcally, I was told 'college drop-outs' were not wanted....what did occur was that I was not the 'proper minority' to fulfull EEOC and Federal Contract demands. Am I not correct that Wannabe1 is now a NYCTA employee of value in good standing? CI Peter
But you are NOT a PA worker at Airtrain. You work for the vendor and when their 5 year contract is up, if they don't get renewed, you are gone.
It was not a good job two years ago. Maybe now with the economy and lowered expectations it is but only until you can get out and do sometihng better.
Doesn't the pay depend on what kind of job you apply for, and what skills you offer?
I think ASST Controller or Head Payroll person was paying $37K and they thought that was a fortune. Customer Service Agent which is the most plentiful spot was 20-25K.
My recollection was I was being considered for one spot above whatever I applied for and the money was not there at all. Maybe if I had kids and lived in Ozone Park and needed to be close by but otherwise not for the money they offered.
If you don't look for employment based upon college degree or technical school certificate, drop your standards and investigate CTA (cleaner) for bus or subways. Chances are that daytime work is more available than night shifts....night adjustments add more pay to your paycheck. Cleaners in busses...sweep out 68 carbodies. Station CTAs sweep the opposing platforms....you've seen them working really hard, right? TA work is excellent work irregardless of assignment. Be a 'Man amongst Men and Women,' pick up a broom. You always can move up and out with competitive examinations. CI Peter
Good attitude, Peter.
Work hard without complaining, study and improve your professional and people skills - and you will move up.
REALLY read into this Ron: the concept of a practical competetive CTA exam must be truly fascinating! How could anyone truly who wants work fail? TA may need 'bodies' but for technical work, the 'hungriest' may be the lower scorers who will work and do and show up on time and never be absent. I'll walk the 'troubles track' and halt my duties to lend a hand and instruct...the '100 percenters' are true genuises who need no assistance. How much grey matter is required to push a broom, swing a shovel or fill a garbage can? ANYONE who wants a good job and will work can be TA. CI Peter
One of my buddies came from SIRT. Only thing keeping there was better working conditions.....a 'nice place.' If pay is worse than SIRT, there is always HomeDepot. Bombardier is only good for the empty headed. So are their trainsets.
I was watching Fox 5 News at 1015 tonight and saw Governor George Pataki riding on a R142 at South Ferry. The car number was 6560. Was this true? A R142 on the 1???!!!
It sure was because they showed footage of it on the 1 on the loop in the South Ferry Station.
However from what I saw, the signs were out.
Great Job MTA!!! Glad to see South Ferry Service Back!
#6560 1 7 Ave Local
Probably was a special train for the king, uh governor.
The more important question -- could they line up the platform extenders correctly at SF on the R-142s, or did the governor have an aide walk out the door first to make sure his honor didn't fall down to the trackbed?
b)
WTF? Pataki is TOO GOOD for an r62a??
Damn... makes Bloomberg look like gold
for taking the 4 train sans armadillo.
It's all political propaganda my friend.
Definitly a borrowed 142 for the ocassion.
Yes it was. I know the T/O that operated the "special train to SF". I was getting all types of details.
So, in other words the R142 can fit the SF platform extension gates to the doors on the trains.
Yes it can. They ran R142 Test trains all week to make sure everything was ok.
And they even had a R62a as a second train to pick them up, but I really think it was a rescue train in case the 142 died.
Not too long ago, I saw a set of Kawasaki R142A's at 96th Street on the uptown express tracks. They left the station and then switched onto the local tracks. Hearing the high-pitched sound of the R142A on the West Side was weird enough, but then seeing it go up the 1 line? What was going on there?
Going to 207 shops maybe?
Could've been, I guess. But I thought they went to 180th for repairs.
The East can't do all repairs. If the train needs wheel work, it would have to go to 207th St or Coney Island.
-Stef
Oh, well that would explain why that R142A was at 96th. I learn something new every time I come here - I didn't know the East couldn't do wheel repairs.
E180 has a wheel shop so does 239 yard
They don't have the capabilities to actually remove the trucks off those cars and take them apart (do they?), which is what I was trying to say. You cannot overhaul trucks at either of those places.
-Stef
OOO no your right for Truck removal they have to got to 207 or Coney Island. But I can't see that happening with the R142 yet so they much have be going to 207 for another reason
Wheel repairs from what you are mentioning might be the reason MTA MCI 102-DL3 #1979 saw an R-142 on the #1 line.
#3 West End Jeff
I was thinking personnel probably wanted to see the underbody of the car in addition to inspecting the overall condition of the trucks. The car bodies would be picked up by a crane with the wheels rolled out from under them by personnel and placed on steel supports.
-Stef
Sometimes these tasks have to be performed to ensure that the cars keep running smoothly. BTW, how often do they lift the carbodies off the trucks to inspect them?
#3 West End Jeff
I don't know for sure, but the cars become due for maintenance after running a certain number of miles.
-Stef
Thanks for trying to get the info. about how often they lift the cars off the trucks.
#3 West End Jeff
Wheel repairs are done at 239th cutting room...done that too. CI Peter
I'm beginning to wonder just who I am going to be railfanning with when I get to New York on October 11. Since many of you are going to Branford on Sunday the 13th, that day is out. I am not going there because my pal #1 Brighton Express Bob can only railfan that day and he and I are very close friends. But those of you who are going to be around from Friday and Saturday, then from Monday and Tuesday, I would like to hook up with a bunch of you guys. I know there are a large number of you who are going to be coming to NY that weekend. You can answer me here or E-Mail me and let me know. I am looking forward to the trip and hope I can meet as many of my railfan buddies as possible.
Next stop on Fred's Sea Beach: Fort Hamilton Parkway.
Hey Fred, I was wondering if you saw a copy of today's New York Times. Great article on Italians leaving Bensonhurst.
Good to hear that three stations that suffered damage during 9-11 have re-opened. There was a small article on it in the LA newspapers this morning. Does anyone have an idea when all will be open? It will be nice when everything gets back to normal as far as the subway service is concerned. As far as other things, it will never get back to normal.
All except the 1/9 Cortlande Street has been re-opened, meaning that 467 of 468 stations are now open. Originally only 463 stations were open, but several months ago the E terminal at WTC station reopened, and now three others have opened too. -Nick
The Cortlandt St. 1/9 station won't reopen until they decide what to do with the WTC site.
I also read the news down in Norfolk, VA
Look for commuter rail service to make a comeback between Houston and Galveston – maybe. On September 1, some 250 people climbed aboard an Amtrak passenger extra which, the train’s riders hoped, would reinvigorate commuter rail service between both cities.
The last time a scheduled passenger train left the Galveston Island station there were only 13 passengers aboard, and it was on April 11, 1967, according to the Texas Assn. of Railroad Passengers’ web site.
The Amtrak special was named the Texas Gulfliner.
“It’s taken three years to get to this point, but I think it has been worth the wait,” said Tedd Okowski, executive director of the Galveston County Economic Development Alliance. His organization has been at the forefront of pushing for a new rail line that would provide regular commuter rail service along the I-45 corridor, the Galveston County Daily News reported. The train ride is about 20 miles, one way.
The first run of the Texas Gulfliner symbolized something bigger than a simple tourist layout on the island, viewed by some people as a way to generate more revenues.
“Traffic congestion is one of the biggest problems we face and if there is a way to establish a better way to move people from one location to another without overcrowding our highways, we need to explore those options,” said League City Councilman Tommy Cones. “Any mode of transportation is better than being stuck in traffic.”
TxARP member Don Harper said the special train ran “on the old Galveston, Houston & Henderson… alongside Texas Highway 3. The train ran from Galveston to League City on September 1 and returned on September 2.
The goal of the demonstration is to offer rail passenger service between Galveston and the mainland during holiday weekends for the next year, said U.S. Rep. Nick Lampson. The environment, battling traffic snarls and finding a way to attract the public to mass public transportation are the reasons behind the pilot Galveston Intelligent Transportation System according to Lampson.
The Texas ARP is online at http://www.railspot.com/txarp. – Ed.
The U.S. House of Representatives has unanimously approved legislation to temporarily prolong flexibility in use of federal transit funds for some smaller urban areas across the nation.
The Transit Operating Flexibility Act (H.R. 5157) was passed by a 350 to 0 vote. It now goes to the Senate. The unanimous House approval might seem to indicate it has clear sailing in the Senate, however, it is subject to the normal dangers such as “holds” and to time constraints, so that passage isn’t assured.
Fifty-two communities nationwide were affected when the 2000 census found their populations had risen above 200,000. Under federal transit law, areas of more than 200,000 cannot use federal formula grant funds to pay for transit operating expenses.
For communities that were not anticipating such a change, the loss of operating flexibility could have caused some transit agencies to shut their doors, eliminating public transportation services in those areas. This bill is designed to give the communities a chance to adjust to their new status—without interrupting transportation—and plan how to handle their transit services in future years without using federal funds for operations.
The bill would permit transit systems in the 52 communities that crossed the 200,000 line to retain their operating flexibility to the same extent they had in the current fiscal year, for Fiscal 2003 only. The measure doesn’t change the amount of transit formula funding these communities (or any others) will receive under TEA 21 in Fiscal 2003.
Here are the communities affected:
Huntsville, Ala.; Antioch; Indio-Cathedral City-Palm Springs; Hesperia-Apple Valley Lancaster-Palmdale; Santa Rosa; Temecula-Murrieta; and Victorville, Calif.
Fort Collins, Colo.; Bristol, New Britain; Norwalk and Stamford, Conn.
Bonita Springs-Naples; Port Saint Lucie, Fla.
Savannah, Ga.; Boise, Idaho; Aurora, Crystal Lake, Elgin, Joliet, Ill.; Round Lake Beach-McHenry-Grayslake, Ill and Wis.; Evansville, Ind.; Annapolis, Md.
Barnstable Town; Brockton; Fall River; Lowell; Taunton, Mass.
Springfield, Mo.; Gulfport-Biloxi, Miss.; Lincoln, Neb.; Atlantic City, N.J.
Poughkeepsie-Newburgh, N.Y.; Asheville; Greensboro; Winston-Salem, N.C.; Sharon, Lancaster, Reading, Penna; Hamilton, Ohio; Eugene, Salem Ore.
Aguadilla-Isabella-San Sebastian; Caguas; Cayey; Humacao; Vega Baja-Manati, Puerto Rico.
Newport, R.I.; Denton, Lewisville; Lubbock; Tex; Petersburg, Va.
Smaller revenues reaching Oregon’s coffers may mean small funds for its passenger rail program.
Claudia L. Howells, Oregon DOT’s Rail Division manager, said recently
“In response to the anticipated revenue shortfall in the state’s General Fund, ODOT is required to submit an additional 10 percent reduction plan of about $922,000.”
She said the state DOT “has only two programs funded by General Funds,” the passenger rail program, and the senior and disabled transportation program.
“Both programs have taken reductions over the last several months, and we are at the point where there are no good or easy choices left,” she added.
She said if trains are to continue running, the legislature will have to find some cash.
“Any reduction at all will force the elimination of one train before the end of the 2001-03 biennium. Unless additional revenue is approved, this cut would eliminate one train effective January 2003.Unfortunately, restoration of service could take many years and require additional capital investment to secure another operating slot on the Union Pacific.
She noted the state budget “for next biennium is even more uncertain. In the current economic environment, we could well see further cuts in the passenger rail program.”
According to Washington State numbers, 52,000 passengers rode between Eugene and Portland, Ore., last year, out of the 693,427 riders in the corridor.
Make sure young children aren't near you when you read what "CARE" stands for.
********
Critics to fight on despite state environmental okay of Boston-to-New Bedford commuter line
Critics of a planned Boston-New Bedford commuter rail service say they’ll continue their opposition, although the project has won state environmental approval with a number of stipulations designed to mitigate its impact on surrounding areas, including the Hockomock Swamp.
The Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority (MBTA) service would connect Boston with New Bedford, in south coastal Massachusetts, and surrounding and intervening points such as North Easton, Raynham, Taunton, East Taunton, Freetown and Fall River.
Robert Durand, state secretary of environmental affairs, approved the project last month though it still requires a number of state and federal permits, The Boston Globe reported.
One of the opponents, Easton Assistant Town Manager Martha White, said: “It’s a classic case of why people distrust government. They shouldn’t be permitted to get away with this. It’s…not a NIMBY thing. All we want is an honest and fair evaluation of the proposal.” Critics have charged that the MBTA plan doesn’t comply with environmental regulations, overstates estimated ridership and falsifies information about another possible route, known as the Attleboro Alternative.
The plan that was approved is known as the Stoughton Alternative.
The new service is projected to carry 8,650 riders a day. Transportation officials have put the investment cost at $669 million and estimated that it would be completed in 2007. The MBTA has said the project would promote economic growth in New Bedford and Fall River while reducing air pollution and traffic.
Durand’s approval had important conditions. To protect the Hockomock Swamp, he ordered that the MBTA construct a two-mile raised trestle through the heart of the swamp. The single-track trestle, supported by concrete columns spaced about 30 feet apart, would allow “animals as large as deer to move freely below the tracks,” Durand wrote.
He also required the MBTA to reduce air pollution by installing electric heaters at layover stations, allowing engineers to turn off engines on cold nights. The MBTA also would have to retrofit existing locomotives and construction equipment to accept low-sulphur fuel and to filter particulate matter.
Durand said a task force from the Department of Environmental Protection, the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife and the Department of Environmental Management will finalize design details and mitigation measures.
A group known as CARE, or Citizens Against Rail Expansion, said it is looking forward to the federal permitting process. Steve Keohane, an Easton resident and CARE member, said: “We’ve got it out of [Durand’s] hands. We don’t have to wait any longer for something that we knew was going to happen anyway.”
What about the environmental impact of the 8,650 cars that this rail line would remove from the highway? Yikes!
Mark
As a minor point, I don't suppose MBTA would consider installing third rail and using MUs - or at least offering to do that as an alternative...it might help the NIMBYT situation a little.
It is important to protect the swamp. Another concession would be to expand the swamp by restoration projects along its edges - but that would require acquiring more land and possibly forcing a sale by eminent domain.
Third rail is dead. It's diesel or 25kV, at least in the BOS area. The swamp is just an excuse that the NIMBYs have come up with. The commuter rail isn't really going to do that much for the environment, but it's Federal money, we may as well spend it.
"The swamp is just an excuse that the NIMBYs have come up with."
That's true, but MBTA still has to play the game. And preserving the swamp is worthy goal regardless of the NIMBY motives.
"The commuter rail isn't really going to do that much for the environment, but it's Federal money, we may as well spend it."
If people are going to commute anyway, I want them on commuter rail, not in their cars. And electrified commuter rail is better for the environment than diesel commuter rail; diesel commuter rail is better than none.
Someone should remind the NIMBY's that the rail line was there long before they were - it's an old New Haven R.R. line.
Jim D.
Someone should remind the NIMBY's that the rail line was there long before they were - it's an old New Haven R.R. line.
Well, let's New York-ify this idea. Imagine trying to restore service on the LIRR Rockaway branch or the Whitestone branch, which where old LIRR lines, on which adjacent residents are very used to NOT having trains. Any proposal of either of these things would die a very early death. I imagine New Yorkers would make these New Englander NIMBYs look like wimps.
On the other hand, if the MBTA proposals are simply to add passenger service to lines already used by freight companies, that's a different matter. If that were the case in New York/New Jersey, the NIMBYs very well could lose. There is generally strong support here for more passenger rail, as long as it doesn't destroy protected environmental areas or result in condemnation of private property for eminent domain.
Someone closer to MBTA territory will have to enlighten me on whether the proposed new MBTA lines are in use by freight traffic currently or are merely "disused." I'm pretty sure the LIRR Rockaway and Whitestone branches are of "abandoned" status, which makes my initial scenario implausible, but still valid as a f'rinstance with regard to my conjecture about New Yorker NIMBYism.
The Rockaway Branch ROW would require so much work (and removal of squatters, eminent domain sales etc.) that it is unlikely to ever be used again. Maybe bike trails...
I'm sick and tired of the affluent hijacking "the environment" to in effect privitize the public domain to their preferences. Someone should stop them from driving their cars through our neighborhoods without an EIS.
But hell, it is worse here. We've go environmentalists fighting wind power.
I sympathize with your position, Larry. I think the train and the swamp can coexist. Maybe MBTA needs to improve the construction plan, though.
MBTA gold plates all its commuter rail schemes. I took a ride on the Old Colony Line. I learned how to spend Federal Money. The infrastructure made Washington Metro look like it was built on the cheap.
Is it really that good?
Cool. Who says you can only have luxury if you buy a Mercedes or Rolls-Royce?
Between Quincy and Plymouth, I counted four (FOUR) sidings. What the hell do you need sidings for on a single-line, two-stub-end commuter rail, I don't know. Maybe it's used for sending empties from Quincy to Plymouth/Kingston, but why bother? They could either simply build enough storage capacity at the end of the line or just run longer trains. Well I just don't understand why they would need FOUR sidings. One, maybe. BTW: there is no freight on that line.
The ROW is waaaay to high quality for the kind of operating speed they were using. All the stations were at level. All the stations were on SINGLE TRACK territory (very illogical move).
It was pretty clear that the scheme was designed to maximize Federal funds flowing to Massachusetts, which isn't really something I oppose. I suspect the NIMBYs are funded by people who didn't get the contract to re-build the Fall River ROW.
"Between Quincy and Plymouth, I counted four (FOUR) sidings. What the hell do you need sidings for on a single-line, two-stub-end commuter rail, I don't know."
There is a limit to the number of trains you can run in each direction if you only have one siding. Is the frequency of service such that it needs more than one siding? Perhaps MBTA anticipates that the schedule will increase in near future.
"All the stations were on SINGLE TRACK territory (very illogical move). "
I agree.
There is at least one place in NY like that - Manhasset station on the LIRR Port Washington Line. Te line becomes single track east of Great Neck, but there are only three stops after Great Neck, so it's not a big deal.
How are the stations constructed? All high-level platforms, or low level platforms with a "mini-high" ramp with space for one wheelchair?
There is a limit to the number of trains you can run in each direction if you only have one siding.
The main constraint is empties coming from BOS for the early morning rush. The place at Plymouth is pretty crowded, I think if they were six car trains the maximum number of sets they can store there is five. The Kingston branch may have more space, since it's built in the middle of nowhere. Looking at the current MBTA schedules, morning rush departs ONLY from Kingston, and the frequency is about hourly with an extra train at 7.10am. Kingston to Braintree is 45 mins, so if you are working with one siding the maximum permissible headway (assuming no storage at the Kingston end) would then be every 45 mins. (One meet, at the middle siding).
The real constraint is on the single track Old Colony ROW between BOS and Braintree, and not between Braintree and Kingston/Plymouth. The only reason there are sidings there is probably because Federal money was being spent. These sidings could be used as buffer capacity for things like parking ROW equipment, dealing with unexpected situations (such as train failures) and other such like situations.
The money would have been better spent beefing up capacity between Braintree and BOS. I don't recall how many sidings were there, but it wasn't many.
How are the stations constructed? All high-level platforms, or low level platforms with a "mini-high" ramp with space for one wheelchair?
All high level platforms, with parking at the level of the platform. It's a very nice station design, but is a very expensive station design.
AEM7
I agree with your post.
Indeed, why not make BOS-Braintree a double-track line (with sufficient crossover switches), and then single-track, if you must, beyond that? This would allow you to offer very frequent rush hour service, and would allow service to continue on a reasonable schedule on one track while the other is undergoing repairs.
BOS-Savin Hill is effective a five-track ROW, while Savin Hill-Braintree is a three-track ROW. Four of the five tracks BOS-Savin Hill is taken up by the Red Line transit, while two of the three between Savin Hill and Braintree is also taken up by transit. With substantial investment, there is room to expand between Savin Hill and Braintree. BOS-Savin Hill is always going to be a single track railroad, unless they rip out some of the transit tracks. There's no room.
AEM7
Oh well...nice try...
"We've go environmentalists fighting wind power."
I was flabbergasted when I read about some upcale New Yorkers with second homes in the Finger Lakes complaining that "sometimes wind power isn't really environmentally friendly" and bemoaning the damage to their "viewshed". The locals all want the wind turbines; so maybe it'll happen, since the New Yorkers don't vote up there.
Fighting wind power? You've gotta be kidding.
>>> Fighting wind power? You've gotta be kidding. <<<
Why not? In California environmentalists are complaining that too many hawks and eagles are being whacked by the blades.
Tom
It's funny, I remember that when I was a kid, hydroelectricity was good for the enviornment. I still have trouble adjusting to the new prevailing wisdom that dams are an environmental menace, even if I can understand the arguements.
Would a guard like the kind found on any household electric fan make anyone happy? It couldn't be that expensive.
Mark
Those who are unhappy with windmills actually DO have an argument - they ARE noisy. VERY noisy with this weird howling sound. There's a windmill farm near Ellenville down in Ulster county that is just unbelievably LOUD. Of course, this could be easily dealt with by placing them in very remote areas or better yet, OFFSHORE by several miles. There's more abundant wind across the oceans and the noise of the turbines running wouldn't be readily heard.
But yes, I can see why there'd be NIMBY with respect to those - they are VERY loud ...
How do you know the howling isn't really a cousin of the Hound of the Baskervilles?
:0)
Heh. The hound lives in Troy, not in Ellenville. Don Pardo, Tell Ron what he's won ... :)
They would have to chip about 150,000 mature trees and countless bushes, saplings, etc. in order to clear the ROW. The hell with the squatters. And the bus yard too!
wayne
It isn't going to happen. I'm as anti-NIMBY as you can get, and I am not in any hurry to advocate for it. It isn't important enough anymore, and there are too many other projects which are easier to build and far more valuable.
[Well, let's New York-ify this idea. Imagine trying to restore service on the LIRR Rockaway branch or the Whitestone branch, which where old LIRR lines, on which adjacent residents are very used to NOT having trains. Any proposal of either of these things would die a very early death. I imagine New Yorkers would make these New Englander NIMBYs look like wimps.]
What it boils down to is this: Because there was a time (longer than a few minutes) during which the right-of-way in question was not used, MBTA's proposal constitutes a completely NEW and UNPRECEDENTED use which must go through a microscopic review procedure.
Basically, any opponents who claim NOT to be motivated by NIMBY are flat-out lying.
Prompted by a nearly fatal accident on a railroad trestle, a New Hampshire legislator has reintroduced a bill designed to keep walkers off high-speed train tracks.
Representative Jim Splaine, a Democrat, said, “First, it (my bill) requires the railroad to place and maintain clear signs every 300 yards on a railroad informing the public of trespassing dangers; and, second, it provides for fair penalties for trespassing of $100 for the first offense, $500 for the second offense and $1,000 for the third offense.”
Splaine was moved try again when Samantha Leclaire, 17, of Seabrook, narrowly missed serious injury last month when struck by the Amtrak Downeaster on a trestle in Durham over the Lamprey River, a popular swimming spot. Onlookers reported that the girl was saved only because the engineer had dropped his speed, in accordance with company policy, to 40 mph from 60 mph, as it neared the bridge.
Samantha, accompanied by six other local teen-agers, apparently had not heard the quiet train’s approach, The Portsmouth Herald reported.
A bill Splaine introduced last session was sent back to committee after being opposed by sportsmen’s groups, whose members often use rail tracks to reach backwoods areas. However, Splaine’s bill limits the restrictions and fines to rail lines where trains normally travel 45 mph or higher.
Splaine said, “If we are ever going to attract higher-speed trains, and encourage rail lines to be built to accommodate them, which in turn will draw more passengers to take advantage of train travel, then we will have to protect both the train operator and the walking public by having this bill passed.”
People are always seen walking tracks on the Oyster Bay line. It is an all too common occurance.
"...after being opposed by sportsmen’s groups, whose members often use rail tracks to reach backwoods areas..."
Why the heck are they listening to these sportsmen's groups? Their members shouldn't be on the train tracks in the first place, regardless of whether they need to use them to get to the backwoods or whatever. Train tracks are for trains, not pedestrians!! When are these people going to realize that?!?!?
If I rember correctly walkig on tracks is considered tresspassing on most railroads whay does a law have to be passed? Let them learn the hard way after a few of them get killed.
I had the opportunity to ride the #2 express from 96th to Chambers yesterday...it was wonderful to get from place to place so quickly again! I then boarder a number one train, and took it to Rector Street. It looked good; almost like a brand new "day one on the IRT" with brand new tile, new tracks, and a fresh coat of paint. Only one tiled sign on the uptown sign was incomplete, everything else was done. South Ferry was ok, they made some minor adjustments there. When going through the Cortlande Street area, there is a white wall blocking the view. However, there are a few areas where you can peak through and clearly see that you are under ground zero...which was a little freaky. -Nick
And the flag... gotta love that flag
we got there along the uptown Cortlandt wall...
A $24.8 million expansion of the San Bernardino-Los Angeles Metrolink has begun. Project officials recently broke ground on the project, which will double-track 5.3 miles of the route to enable more trains to be added to the line, The San Gabriel Valley Tribune reported.
The additional commuter track would run between White Avenue in Pomona and the Montclair Metrolink station, with enhancements to the Claremont and Pomona stations. The project should encourage more commuters to use the trains, potentially decreasing freeway traffic by 1,800 vehicles per day, Metrolink officials said. The 56.2 mile San Bernardino line, nicknamed, “San Berdoo,” carries the highest passenger load of the seven Southern California Metrolink routes, with an average daily ridership of more than 10,000 commuters.
Michael Mulhern, general manager of the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, says the “T” plans to build four new stations and add more trains on the Fairmount commuter rail line, which serves minority areas.
The upgrade would significantly boost transit service to Dorchester, Mattapan and Hyde Park – among Boston’s poorer and least-served communities, The Boston Globe reports.
Improvements for the 9.6-mile line, which links Hyde Park to South Station, will require as much as $70 million, half of which Mulhern said he would find in the agency’s budget, if the rest can be obtained as federal or state grants or found elsewhere.
The T would add stations at Colombia Road, Four Corners, Talbot Avenue, and Blue Hill Avenue - Cummings Highway, improve the lagging line’s four existing stations and add weekend service. Mulhern said that would lighten the load on Mattapan, Dorchester, and West Roxbury’s overburdened bus services.
“I am ecstatic,” said City Councilor Charles Yancey.
“I’ve long thought that it’s the height of insensitivity to have the commuter line go right through the heart of that community, but I think this is a great move. The new general manager is really moving, and I will be proud to stand right next to him when we open these stations up.”
In the past, T administrators worried that improving the parallel Fairmount line would cause problems for the more congested Attleboro line by taking up valuable garage space at South Station. But a consultant’s report recently presented to Mulhern erased those fears.
Currently, to get downtown quickly from that section of the city, commuters have to catch a bus to the Red or Orange lines or transfer to another bus at Dudley Station. But bus services in those neighborhoods, from crowding to breakdowns to delays, are among the worst in the system.
The Fairmount line serves an area that is home to more than 163,000 people, according to the Central Transportation Planning Staff, part of the Boston Metropolitan Planning Organization.
Of those residents, 63 percent are minority and half that number is African-American. Between the stations at Uphams Corner and Morton Street, the minority population rises to 91 percent, with 74 percent African-American.
motormen (engineers) were blamed for two separate Chicago Transit Authority collisions last year involving two rapid transit trains. Management was also cited for failure to provide adequate instructions.
The National Transportation Safety Board September 4 determined that both accidents occurred after the train operators failed to comply with CTA rules designed to prevent collisions.
“Two dangerous collisions in a brief period of time that appeared to have some common elements, naturally caught our interest,” said NTSB Chairman Marion C. Blakey.
“We initiated this special investigation to see if there might be a systemic problem behind these accidents that we could help resolve.”
The CTA experienced the two rear-end collisions within a two-months. The first occurred late morning on June 17 when CTA train No. 104, en route from downtown Chicago to O’Hare International Airport on the Blue Line, collided with a standing train (No. 207) near the Addison Street Station. About 75 passengers were on train No. 104, while train No. 207 was carrying about 40 passengers. Eighteen passengers, an off-duty CTA employee, and both motormen received minor injuries. CTA estimated equipment damage at $30,000.
The second accident occurred on August 3, during the morning rush hour, when CTA Brown Line train No. 416, en route from Kimball Station to downtown Chicago, collided with a standing Purple line train (No. 505) on elevated tracks near Hill Street. Each train, made up of six passenger cars, was carrying a load of about 90 passengers per car. Police logs indicate 18 people were taken to area hospitals with minor injuries.
Damages in this accident were estimated at about $136,000.
In the first accident, trains in the area were operating under a single-track detour due to maintenance work on a parallel track. The board concluded that had the operator of train No. 104 stopped and contacted the control center when the signals on the train did not activate, as required by CTA operating rules, and had the control center followed existing procedures, the accident could have been prevented.
Similarly, the board found that had the operator of train No. 416 in the August 3 accident complied with CTA rules and waited for a stop signal to clear before proceeding, this accident also could have been avoided.
Looking into these rule violations, NTSB investigators found that CTA’s program for enforcement of operating rules was “inadequate” and that, “consequently, rules violations, such as those related to these two accidents were not uncommon.” The board recommended that CTA develop new procedures “to ensure that all operating personnel are complying with CTA operating rules, including speed restrictions and signal rules.”
Investigators also determined that the operators in both accidents had ample time to see the train ahead and come to a safe stop but, for ”unexplained reasons,” failed to do so.
The Board stated that “because the transit cars involved in these accidents did not have event recorders, or had recorders with only limited capabilities, insufficient information was available to provide the basis for a thorough analysis of the actions of the two operators or the performance of the trains prior to the collisions.”
The NTSB recommended that event recorders be required on new or rehabilitated trains funded by Federal Transit Administration grants.
The board also noted that inspection manuals produced by the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) provide transit agencies with little specific guidance on programs for ensuring compliance with operating rules. The board recommended that APTA manuals be modified to include information on auditing the effectiveness of such programs.
The NTSB is online at http://www.ntsb.gov/.
California’s Bay Area Rapid Transit system turned 30 years old on September 13 – last Friday – and last week got the okay to
Since the first leg of the line opened on Sept. 11, 1972, the system has carried almost 2 billion passengers more than 22 billion miles. Today, BART carries almost 50 percent of the total peak commute trips between the East Bay and San Francisco, equivalent to another deck on the Bay Bridge.
BART was the first all-new rail rapid transit system to be built in this country in about 60 years, and became the nation’s laboratory for advancing the technology for ground transportation systems with many of its innovations.
BART has grown from a 71.5-mile system with 33 stations in 1972 to a 95-mile system with 39 stations now. When the new line into the San Francisco International Airport opens, now targeted for January, the system will grow to 103 miles and 43 stations. BART will have thus grown by 44 percent since 1972.
The light rail system maintains 95 miles of right-of-way, support facilities, a fleet of 669 cars and has more than 500 of them ready daily by 4 a.m. for service
Meanwhile, BART’s extension to San Jose has gotten one step closer to becoming a reality after receiving federal approval last week, according to the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.
U.S. Rep. Mike Honda, (D) and San Jose Mayor Ron Gonzales said the Federal Transit Administration has given the Silicon Valley Rapid Transit Corridor BART expansion project a rating of “recommended” and approved the project to enter into preliminary engineering, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.
The approval will pave the way for more detailed engineering design work.
Jeez, about time. I remember in the summer of 1977 biking from my aunt's house in south San Jose to the bus that made every stop through the downtown area and then up to the BART terminal at Freemont. Made the trip into lower Manhattan from Tottenville look like traveling from Brooklyn Heights by comparison, and I can't imagine the traffic and travel patterns getting any better over thew last 25 years.
yes, BART turned thirty. and I have time stamped transfers from Day One.
As to the "sucesses" well... when BART opens to SFO it will have the same route mileage as METRO in DC with half the ridership. And in preparation for the Airport service they just tweaked schedules degrading base day service on the Richmond Line by canceling the "meets" with SF and Fremont bound trains at Macarthur--something about schedule conflict noone could design around.
As to San Jose, extending BART is a ripoff and a waste of money. For what they intend to spend (evem without the usual cost overruns) the existing Capitol Corridor could be electrified and run at equivalent headways with money left over.
It does seem odd that they would build on a paralleled route. Will the BART line run farther west?
odd?, no. what we have here is something "Hylan" conspiracy theorists would love. What BART intends is a route closer to the current SP 'inland' route while the Captol Corridor trans use Alviso with major ridership at a transfer point to LRV and many employer shuttkes to the employment centers. Here is a site with much info on rail for the South Bay area.
>>http://www.bayrailalliance.org/hsr/summary/sf_sj_summary.html<<
This group pushes for using existing FRA trackage for commute service rather than building brand new BART ROW (note, BART is non-standard guage) Many of us out here have a love/hate relationship with BART,
its good transit--when it runs (no overnight service), the fares are outrageous IMHO, the faregates/TVM's are crappy, OTOH stations are clean and before 9.11 had mostly clean bathrooms.
Also half the stations of WMATA. What's up with the almost 2.5 mile distance between stations? Would any "infill" stations increase ridership?
they don't WANT to be a subway.
Actually, there is talk of an infill station @ 30th & Mission--but with the usual BART budget, it will be a $450 million project, because it will include a short turn track and associated crossovers. A look at the BART map on this site will show that the original designers were very stingy with crossovers, and sdings.
Yes, and Yes. I grew up with BART, but now that I've seen "real" subways, I realized how BART is some hybrid between a subway and a commuter RR. The stations are far apart in the 'burbs, but surrounded by enormous parking lots.
I guess the real problem is, how do you build Rapid Transit when you don't have a population density that supports people walking to the stations? maybe BART was one way.
The proposal to build a space in the center of the LIE for transit to Long Island, if built, would have resembled BART in this way on Hwy 24 and 580.
As far as the X-overs go, I assume that they saw no need to change their basic service patterns after the inital studies, and figured that the only time they would be single tracking would be in emergencies, since they have a four hour window for MOW every night.
I know what you mean about the love/hate thing. BART had to be riddled with comprimises just to be approved in the first place by the voters in 1960. (2 years after the Key Bridge lines were closed)
(2 years after the Key Bridge lines were closed)
Where did the Key Bridge lines go?
Abandoned, and the ROW on the bridge was turned into additional highway lanes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think he meant, "where did they GO", i.e., what locations did they serve.
A- Oakland 12th Street
B- Oakland 22nd Street
C- Piedmont
D- not used
E- Claremont
F- Berkeley/Shattuck Ave
G- Berkeley/Westbrae
H- Berkeley/Northbrae
Ironicly, as I posted in another thread, the ten most used stations are , surprise (not), the downtown subway and residential neighborhood stations in SF, the Berkelet station--both "downtown" and close to UC Berekeley campus, and one outlying parking lot/structure with bus connections to three further out counties.
The original propaganda was clearly "were not a subway like those filthy east coast places" , and the "Buck Rogers snouts on the "A" cars were a costly PR maneuver. Ultimately BART has had to relearn the design lessons of real subways which they had deliberately ignored. Sadly this did not prevent a disfunctional design for the Bayfair Station when the Dublin line was grafted onto the Fremont Line. And I gave to say again that lack of all night service really sucks.
The 4th paragraph says "light rail". Is that a typo?
I agree. BART and WMATA are Heavy Rail for sure.
Is this a case where the Caltrain will provide express service and BART local service? Would a correct analogy be the Flushing (7) subway and the LIRR Port Washington branch?
Or would the commuter train be cancelled and third rail power added to commuter tracks, with BART taking them over?
1. BART is wide guage so can't use ANY other trackage.
2 no, imagine the TA wanted to build a new subway along side or near to the Raritan Line of NJT AND was lobbying behind closed doors to CLOSE the line down.
Understood.
opto ............no railfan window ...........
This has been an interesting discussion. In light of the mentioned shortcomings of the BART system, I'd like to put forth a question to anyone who wants to answer: what would be the perfect subway system, or at least a better subway system for the San Franisco Bay area? Would it have stations closer together? Would it have more lines and/or stations in the densely populated city of San Francisco itself? I don't know a whole lot about the dynamics and needs of the Bay Area, so I'm really curious to hear what other people would propose.
Mark
I spotted an R-142 #2 train moments ago running northbound on M Track, and the set appears to have been sectionalized. The tail lamps were lit in the C/R's position. It would appear 5 live cars were pulling 5 dead ones. Not good.....
There was also a problem with a train at Mott Av (149th St) on Friday Night, causing the beast's follower to be routed to the Southbound Track at that station. There were passengers running from the northbound plat to catch us. Fortunately, the train remained with it's doors open to accomodate everyone. We caught up to our follower, who made it into Jackson Middle and stayed at that location for a number of minutes. I believe it took me approximately 75 minutes to get from Wall St to the Bronx. Stop and go! Stop and go! Night Lunches suck.....
-Stef
I take back everry good thing I've said about Bombardier: You STILL suck!!!
Write on on a piece of paper the Car number, the train interval, time of night, And call the F/O explaining what happened at the next booth. And for the rest of the night mentally word a G-2. Just in case!
What exactly is a G-2?
A G-2 is a statement we write to our superiors to explain a problem we might have. Train Operators, Conductors, Station Agents do the same thing. It's simply a piece of paper with writing on it.
When a supervisor says "give me a G-2" as to why something occurred (money short, lateness, etc.), you'd better believe he's going to get one.
-Stef
Sadly, the G-2 is implicated by supervision as a weapon of superiority. After an all night R142 current collector check of a ten car trainset, the supervisor who came in at 5AM gave me a hard time...until my partner came back with the shoe beam gauge we used to check the trainset and 'his face was mud.' Later, he accused me of claiming he 'jacked me up.' I thought it was a G-2...it was an obscence comment. If he had 'written me up on a G-2,' I would have not only had been able to read it and file my own but he would have been in 'hot water' as CI Calibration confirmed my technical observations in a gauge calibration visit.
Need a tour change temporarily...file a G-2. See someone stealing...file a G-2. Observe a safety violation...file a G-2. Need tools that are unavailable...file a G-2. I had been warned that someone in responsibility might file a G-2 agasinst me because I made a comment about the way vendors change brake units unsafely in our face. The comment was completely taken out of text and the particular vendor repair operation hasn't been used since. What is bad about the G-2 is that it might become part of your personal record...better to speak to someone privately unobserved if it is not a personal request of necessity.
Actually, I wasn't late getting anywhere but home when the R-142 went bust.
Timing on a night schedule is still tough, and is poorly planned on Station's part. I missed a 4 to Wall St on Friday (by 60 seconds), and had to find other ways to get from Union Square. 4s run evry 20 minutes during the night hours. 20 minutes too late. Of course, they tell the escort to come to Union Sq at 1:15 when the damn booth closes at 1 so who gives a hoot! I'm the only one who cares, since I wind up doing my own escort downtown in lower Manhattan after booth manning.
-Stef
Stef- Never, never, never, never...
Never make your own escort. If needed call the F/O and ask for Police. Do not use the EBCS. You get a late clear ( overtime from when you are supposed to be off to the time toy actually get off.)
If you make your own escort and you get hurt or robbed they will have your head.
TYrack this problem lunch each time and then attach a copy of your logs to the G-2 or a new G-2 to the Superintendent requesting the schedule be changed or allow you to leave early if the S/A is back and the next train is due.
ANother tip I use is the uinofficial "5 minute rule" which says time is posted to the near est 5 minute- you arriev at 1:01 you arrived at 1:00.
Rather than pay overtime every tiume you work they'll alloow you to run up to 20 minutes early via catching the next train.
Good luck!
ps- I also suggest you post this on station_talk. Several unino biggies read that group.
What is Union Talk? CI Peter
it is Station_talk, a group I host on Yahoo Groups. It is designed for Station Agents and CTAs and Revenue Employees.If you want to join-= sure!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/station_talk/
No, you missed what I tried to say - I closed my part time booth and went to do an escort at Broad Street, and verify that clerk's funds.
I had to assume Lunch Relief Duties once again after booth manning.
-Stef
Thought I'd visit Stillwell Terminal yesterday since the banishing of the (F) & (Q). After leaving the (W) train I saw very quiet and abandoned platforms. Usually this place was abuzz with activity, trains entering and leaving and noisy crowds heading to the beach.
On the (F) platform, there was a signal head removed from the overhead bracket. All tracks were rusty and wooden third rail protection boards removed from the (F) tracks on the approach.
The only sound to break the silence, was equipment used to break concrete, this was on the (Q) approach.
On the abandoned crew quarters, the canopy on top was removed. The overhead crew quarters I have been told is the first to go.
Down stairs is even eerier. The old, long and smelly ramps to the (F) and (Q) were dark and gated shut. The ramps to the Norton's Point buses was gated shut also. All this is worth a look before major demolition takes place, which may be sooner than we think.
Bill "Newkirk"
Did you notice if the public bathrooms within fare control are still open?
>>Did you notice if the public bathrooms within fare control are still open?<<
Yes, it was open. But I didn't want to visit it for old time sake. The bathroom at Nathan's is newer, cleaner and has soap.
Bill "Newkirk"
Plus, the Men's Bathroom has a rather 'entertaining' picture!! 8(
All I can say is GET IT DONE!
That is a great contrast to what Stillwell Avenue used to be. It must been been hopping in Coney Island's glory days. Now it is just the opposite. I was last there on June 26th and it was in the beginnings of becoming a ghost town.
#3 West End Jeff
JC did you get any pics :) Stevie
The downloadable timetable from the MTA shows the W train skipping 30th Ave-39th Ave westbound during weekday rush hours. I just took that train this morning for the first time and it seemed like a local to me!!
Does this train ever run express to Manhattan? This is vital to my commute.
Thanks for any info on when/why this might have changed..
The W did run express for a few months or weeks when the service was first started replacing the B while the Manhattan Bridge is closed. It didn't last long because the "local" stations are in some cases more busy than Ditmars itself. It actually hindered service on the Astoria el, and the people inconvenienced by it were far more than the few that benefited. ANd the few that did benefit, it was a minimal time savings anyway.
How come the TA was able to figure this self evident fact out in a matter of weeks or months, but on the 1/9, they have not been able to figure out the skip stop has the same effect, it hinders more customers than it helps. And even for those it helps, the savings is no more than 4 minutes.
Amazing
The reason is that skip-stop has significant support from the Riverdale customers at the far end of the line and their political representatives. And in a morning commute, 4 minutes is a major savings.
Yeah, but......... 242 is not a major hub, and the bus traffic that does feed it is more from Yonkers. I also overestimated the time savings. David Greenberger forwarded me his analysis of the situation and based on the 1 line schedule, the savings is only TWO minutes from 242. Now 231 is a transfer point for bus routes that provide service to Riverdale, the savings from 231 is ONE minute. So the MTA figures it makes sense to inconvience riders from stations with higher ridership figures to provide this enormous savings to our friends in Riverdale (many of whom use Metro North or express bus)?! If anything, I was overly generous is my estimate of how much time the skip/stop saves.
And someday, someone will be able to explain why 145 and 157 are included in this disaster. The people at 157 skip ONE stop (the time savings can be measured in seconds and counted on one hand) while the poor folks at 145 (with one the higher ridership figures on that section of the line) miss half the trains and skip ZERO stops! WOW! They must be thrilled that skip stop is back! I cannot believe that the MTA doesn't look at thier own schedule and figure out this is a monumental waste of time and effort, but not too much money or they would not do it.
"I cannot believe that the MTA doesn't look at thier own schedule and figure out this is a monumental waste of time and effort, but not too much money or they would not do it."
Skip stop provides some real benefit to those in Riverdale.
Riverdale voters are much more conservative than Bronxites as a whole. Some probably even vote repubican.
Pataki doesn;t want to lose any votes.
How can you say the skip stop provides some real benefits. 242 serves mostly bus riders from Yonkers (and not that many). 231 serves more Riverdale (bus feeds from the Bx7 among others). At 231 (which does get some form of benefit) you save ONE WHOLE ENTIRE MINUTE! I am not a Republican and do not wish to offend any, but if they vote for Pataki for saving one minute, I then for sure know why I'm a Democrat!
They think they save more than one minute, just like Queens express passengers think they'd lose at least ten minutes by riding the V into Manhattan from Roosevelt, or like many riders from Jamaica Center to lower Manhattan insist on taking the E to the 6 to the 4/5, or like many IND passengers wouldn't even think of riding the C from 59th to Broadway-Nassau, even if they just missed an A.
The real question is how to change that impression. I know I used to feel the same way about expresses until I sat down with the schedules and spent some time thinking -- and that's obviously too much to ask of the masses for whom reading a subway schedule isn't an enjoyable pastime. Any psychologists in the house?
MTA has to do more effective marketing. They have to get the message across that J riders are more comfortable, get to work faster, and have fewer delays due to transfers.
Possible ideas (feel free to criticize):
1) Offer (for a limited time) on-time guarantees on the J and Z - anybody late by x minutes gets a free $6 MetroCard or something like that.
2) Accelerate the introduction of the R143 to the J/M/Z to offer passengers the newest ride in the system - and then advertise it. Hold special events (balloons? prizes?) at Jamaica Center. Hand out flyers.
3)Pick a station to renovate (that would lift ridership there) and offer ADA compliance, and then advertise that in concert with the other things above.
Other ideas???
"or like many riders from Jamaica Center to lower Manhattan insist on taking the E to the 6 to the 4/5"
Do we actually have evidence that significant numbers of people do this?
After all, 80% of Manhattan's office jobs are in midtown, so it's only logical that most riders getting on at an Archer Ave station would use the E rather than the J/Z. How do we know that more than a handful of those E riders are actually headed downtown?
No, I don't have evidence, but numerous posters here and elsewhere have insisted that the E - 6 - 4/5 is the better route, so I assume somebody's going that way.
"numerous posters here and elsewhere have insisted that the E - 6 - 4/5 is the better route"
They're just talking theory. I doubt we've heard from anyone who actually does the trip.
I suspect that if you really do a daily commute from Archer Ave to lower Manhattan via the E, 6, and 4 or 5, pretty soon you would ask yourself whether the J/Z might be better. Then you'd try the J/Z once to see what happens. Any normal human being waiting to get onto the escalator on the E platform at Lex/53rd is thinking "there's gotta be a better way".
Perhaps. But do most commuters pay more attention to the duration of the total trip or to the speed of travel? The J/Z may take less time than the E - 6 - 4/5, but it sure moves slower -- it just takes a more direct path and doesn't require any transfers.
True. That's the key point of evidence that bats all people who say logically that the J/Z is better. More direct is the key.
Also, the majority believes express is always better, despite stats and logic showing the opposite. Remember, people have no time to think properly here in 'Nu Yawk!!'.
The Boradway local line has a third track below 145th. Those 5 skipped stops had two bebifits: One the train was already full; Two folks onboard liked the idea of it being a 1/2 Express. Sometimes it even stayed Express if the local line ahead of it was chock full of trains.
"Skip stop" bypasses stations that aren't as busy as others, so it can catch up with the non skip stop train ... I don't understand what this does for folks.
"How can you say the skip stop provides some real benefits."
Two minutes is not totally negligible, when multiplied by 500 trips per year. At $30 per hour (typical middle class salary), that's $500 per year.
I certainly didn't mean to say that the benefit was major, or justified the screwing of the people who only get half as many trains as a result. I was trying to explain why I thought the MTA had reinstated skip-stop. Either they are total moronic in this respect, or they are politically influenced. I suspect the latter rather than the former.
I suspect neither. I suspect either that nobody has put much thought into it since 1989 (or perhaps 1994, when skip-stop was curtailed to rush hours) or that there are facts that we're not privy to that render my analysis baseless.
I say that because, having seen a variety of TA service changes in recent years, I don't think any are the products of morons and I don't think any are influenced by the politics of those who are traditionally considered politically connected (although a number are clearly influenced by a desire to appease the so-called underprivileged).
Maybe I'm being cyncial. Maybe it's just that no one is complaining, and they would certainly get complaints (even if unjustified) from the people at the stops served by both 1 and 9 if they eliminated skip stop.
At least on the 1/9 the trains are roughly equally loaded. The W Astoria express was probably a real no brainer to get rid of because people all along the line were cooling their heels waiting for an N while a nearly empty W zoomed by.
One fact of life is that people whose situation worsens (whether it ends up particularly bad or not) tend to complain more than people who have always had it bad, and people who benefit usually don't bother saying a word (myself included).
For instance, Manhattan-bound Queens Boulevard local passengers never complained much that they didn't have direct 53rd Street access, since they never had direct 53rd Street access. Now that the V-related changes have given them direct 53rd Street access, express passengers are complaining that their 53rd Street access has been reduced and G passengers are complaining that their trains only go to Court Square. The complaints don't indicate that the service plan is bad -- they just indicate that the service plan affected a lot of people, some of them negatively.
So, yes, all-stop 1/9 passengers will complain if skip-stop is cancelled, but skip-stop 1/9 passengers didn't complain in 1989 (since they didn't lose any trains then). I wonder if they'll complain now, having been without skip-stop for the past year.
Riverdalians do not vote Republican - ever.
vital to your commute? what you think your saving 30mins or something!? c'mon gimme a break.the W doesnt run express anymore because it did more harm than good and even if it did,you'd be saving practically nothing.let me tell you one thing,dont ever bother taking an express,its not worth. you save no more than 5 mins,if even that.its better to just stay on a local with a seat to relax than stand on a crowded express,squahed like a pancake with the rest of the idiots who think they save some 20mins or some stupid crap like that.thats why i hate some people,they think they're know it all's when in reality they know diddly squat.They can be the most intelligent person in the whole damn world but once they set foot into the subway,they look around dumbly and are like "which way do I go? duhhhhh which way do I go? I'm lost."
I simply meant that getting the information straight was vital to my commute, since I like to know all the ins and outs of whatever line I may be using - not that having the W express was vital... I thought it would give at least 10 min time savings, but that's not enough to keep me up at night worrying...
really though, you don't need to call people idiots because they have different opinions than yourself. When the line map for the w shows express and the train runs local, isn't it natural to wonder why?
thanks for your help!
really though, you don't need to call people idiots because they have different opinions than yourself.
Don't take it personal, V Train loves to call everyone idiots who don't agree with everything she says.
Yes, watch out for gals like here!! They happen to my style! ;-)
Yes, watch out for gals like her!! They happen to my style! ;-)
-sighs- i dont call anyone idiots for that reason,i always refer to anyone that doesnt pay attention,asks the dumbest questions,ESPECIALLY
about something that has been happening for a year or more....i mean cmon,where'd they been all this time? planet Mars or something? 1 year! it just cant be humanly possible for anyone to not know what the hell is going on in the system regardless if your a frequent rider of a certain line or not.it's not rocket science,jeez.You want a perfect example of what I mean? here's a good one. someone mentioned about the G.O. this past weekend on the Q,R,W.All Q's were running local via the Montague Tunnel and this person said that both bridge platform's were packed like they usually are.Now how stupid is that? I mean,there was fliers all over the place saying that there was no Q over the bridge and to go get it at the R,W platform and there even were announcements saying the same thing yet the platforms were packed as usual with people looking at the tunnel for a train when one was never gonna show up till Monday morning.Now those people,excluding the Chinese,were really,REALLY STUPID! posters all over the place,announcements saying what to do and they STILL didn't pay attention and were totally clueless,you can't possibly tell me that that is not dumb.I wish I was there one of those days,I would've stood there for 15mins at least then shouted so everyone could hear me to do what they're supposed to do.I hope the TA implements that same G.O. again,I'm gonna love being at Canal St. for it.
I agree he got a bit heated over a very minor matter. But when you strip away the personal attacks, he actually has a valid point. While people almost universally seem to prefer expresses, they really save very little time. The longest express run on the system, the CPW run on the A and D only save something like 5 minutes.
The thing that people see is that they save "x" number of stops, so it seems a lot faster. I'm the same way. I often get off the 1 local at 96 when going to 14 street, only to wait 8 or 10 minutes for the express; the bottom line is the express may pass the local, somewhere around 23 street; big savings!
Even when it did run express, the W schedule was the SAME nine minutes between Ditmars and Queensboro as the N local.
no reason why it shouldnt have.by now the W scedules should've shown it local in Queens so it's strange that it didnt.
Should a passing score on IQ test be required to buy a MetroCard?
:0)
You mean at least break into double digits!
No, it does not. The silly idea of Astoria express service was finally eliminated last December.
Yeah, Graham Chapman stepped in and promptly stopped it.:)
Well, W ran exp in Queens at the beginning of 7/22/01. That wasn't lasted long until 1/7/02. From what I've heard, TA decided revert the service to local on 1/7/02 because of a less percentage riders and most people prefer local service. Therefore "W" Train run local since then.
One word: Beautiful!!!!
Today I was on the "beast". When we left Chambers and went past Franklin St, it was on. All the crews on the "beast" were arriving at Flatbush and 241St on time and some cases early. I was 5 minutes early on two of my trips. Plus the fact that the weather kept a lot of people inside helped as well. Tomorrow will be the true test as today is a holiday.
7 Ave express is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
More information about the proposed downtown transit hub connecting the A/C/E/J/M/Z/N/R/1/2/3/4/5/9 lines. It's rather ambitious and would transfrom the Broadway/Fulton St. are dramatically.
Recently I purchased a beautiful r46 side rollsign from SubwayAl and built a cherry case to hold it and the scroll hardware. Tell me what you think of it. I have posted pics on e-bay. (I don't expect your bids, just your opinions)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=713785986&rd=1
Thanks guys.
It looks nice! I have that exact rollsign that I bought at the Transit Museum's auction about 10 years ago, but of course it's not in that nice case.....
Thanks for the kind response.
If you love so much, why are you selling it?
I have my own complete
R-32 signbox and you couldn't pay me enough to part with it.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm making myself another one. Hoping to make a little $ on this one so my cost for the one I keep will be a little less.
Does it have green fluorescent bulbs?:)
It has the sockets for them. But, since my house is not wired for 600V DC, I use a couple of strings of all green Christmas lights. Works quite well. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
My R-1/9 still has the original wiring for the light sockets illuminating the lower destination sign. They're wired in series. A pair of 75-watt bulbs works just fine and provides ample illumination on 115 VAC. The upper sign illumination is improvised; I took a multiple outlet strip and inserted a couple of plug-in sockets with 15-volt bulbs through the holes in the top of the box.
Years ago when Shoreline still had their sign shop, they had an R-1/9 sign box mounted by one of the windows which had upper destination light sockets welded to the top of the box. Eddie S. explained that some of the cars had that arrangement while on others, the light sockets for the upper destination sign were an integral part of the car and were not mounted on the sign box. My sign box is an example of the latter.
The sign shop was gone by the time I visited Shoreline in 1984. The fellow who ran it had passed away since my previous visit in 1980 and they weren't able to replace him.
I never thought seriously of backlighting my sign. Cool idea. I 'll try the christmas lights suggestion.
I can still see those side signs backlit in green, especially "57th St." and "Coney Island" (not at the same time) on the R-32s when they were new.
That looks pretty good. If it were the original roll sign from the R-46 I'd definitely bid on it.
Wayne
Wayne, you must be using Netscape 7. It's got a lovely bug that holds thread titles from the prior thread you posted to. This one was "My r46 side rollsign images" until you posted a reply. Now it's "Re: E/F loop in Jamaica".
Interesting. Those were the rollsigns installed on the R46's in late 1988, and were removed when the current digital signs were put in. I didn't know those rollsigns contained only the E/F/G/N/R/JFK routes only.
Passed it before... Most of the siding ripped off... First stages of the demolition... I guess 62nd is soon to follow. GET YOUR PICS NOW!
I think my change of the thread title might be more appropriate, Mark. Don't ya think? :)
LOL!
Rim shot!!!!!!!!!!!
Should the Nostrand Ave IRT ever get an extension beyond Flatbush Ave, how far do you think the line should go?
I have 2 proposals:
1) Run the line along Nostrand Ave to either Ave X or Emmons Ave.
2) Run south along Flatbush Ave to Kings Plaza or Breezy Point across the Gil Hodges Bridge or to Rockaway Park to connect with shuttle.
I like that Idea, that way it would be a faster comming from KP, instead of gettin, crowded bus.
-AcelaExpress2005
Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge was just recently under-reconstruction, so it'd have to be seriously upgraded to handle rail lines.
My idea for extending a line would be the New Lots to Flatlands or Vandalia Avenue to service the new Gateway Center Mall (due to open by the end of the month).
Not a bad idea either. Sure beats having to transfer to a bus. But in my view, relocating the Canarsie Line would be more sufficient. Abandon East 105 and Rockaway Pkwy and build a nice concrete el from New Lots Station over to Linden Blvd and down Pennsylvania Ave then on a ROW next to the Belt with a bridge over the Creek and a spanking new Gateway Terminal. A new train yard could be constructed where the dump used to be across the Belt Parkway.
Just to Kings Plaza is fine... or via Nostrand Avenue to X. I prefer Kings Plaza because it's a more popular area.
N Bwy
This late afternoon, 1657 out of Bay Parkway, I believe, lost indication a couple of stops before 62 Street. But after the long buzz, the indication came back and continued rolling to 62 Street. It gets to 62 Street doors open and close and the T/O couldn't get indication. After the T/O walked to the 4th car and radioed control, they got it working again. We roll 1 car out of the station and it pukes again. After walking back once more and coming back, we continue to 36 Street where it ran express to Pacific. I got off then and don't know what happened after. So if there was a lapse in northbound M, and W, now you know why.
This post is mainly for opinions although it may work out as a Q & A as well. For one, I have always been against the Archer Ave project because its intentional purpose was not taken into consideration. But being the damage is done, what's your say on the following:
1) Do you believe the run to 168 Street should have been left as is?
2) Do you think Archer Ave Extension and the 168 St Terminal can co-exist together?
3) Do you think the Liberty Ave line should have been used instead of the Jamaica Line?
4) Do you believe Queens Blvd or 121 St were sufficient temporary terminals?
5) Is the Archer Ave Extension better off not being built?
I have another question to add to your list:
6) Is mental masturbation about the Archer Avenue line a good way to spend your time?
OK OK, this Subtalk, and you're entitled to post what you like.
I will make one point (which I learned from others here): even though the original lines were not totally finished (for a variety of reasons), NYC Transit had to finish some of it to avoid being in violation of rules governing federal construction money.
I the end, they got:
Much better connectivity between Queens Blvd. the LIRR,and the BMT.
A line that, with one extra station (say, 160th Street or Merrick Blvd.) would basically be almost what the original elevated was in terms of service. Maybe one day that station will be added.
and: a convenient, integrated station to plug AirTrain into.
That, plus daylight now in place of a bridge.
So there's no reason to cry over the past.
1. Yes
2. No, they're too close together.
3. Perhaps, but the Lefferts Blvd. spur would need more than half A service if this was to have worked.
4. No. Although the Archer Ave. line was not the greatest idea in the world, demolishing the J line in Jamaica 11 years before it opened was even sillier. The whole thing should've remained open until 1985.
5. It's useful, but the money spent on it would have been better used to build the 2nd Ave subway.
4. No. Although the Archer Ave. line was not the greatest idea in the world, demolishing the J line in Jamaica 11 years before it opened was even sillier. The whole thing should've remained open until 1985.
The truth is, it's not so bad that they removed the El from Jamaica Ave. It is bad because they did it so soon before the Archer line was opened. They should only have closed the eastern end of the Jamaica El when they needed to do the work to connect it to the new subway (around the time when they ended service to Queens Blvd in 1985 as mentioned) and made 121 Street the temporary terminal. Queens Blvd should never have been mad the temrary terminal. It should have went right from 168th Street to 121st STreet, and only when it had to be truncated due to the construction. The reason that Jamaica AVe suffered so badly after the removal of the el is because for close to 10 years, there was NO subway service to the heart of Jamaica. At least when the El was there, you had a one block walk from the subway to the LIRR - try that with the terminal being at Queens Blvd or 121 Street. The impact of the loss of the el would have been less severe if it would have been minimized to maybe 1 or 2 years of no service.
The Archer line is not a bad idea, as it did combine services at the Jamaica LIRR hub, and that is a good thing. The way it was implemented is what was so bad about the project.
And of course it wouldn't have hurted if it went further than Jamaica Center though like it was supposed to.
It has also failed in it's mission to ease overcrowding on the Queens Blvd. IND. For all the passangers who use the J/Z to get from Jamaica to Manhattan, there is a J rider who backtracks on the J to Supthin Blvd. to use the IND. Before 12/88, these people would have never stepped foot on the E/F in Queens.
Heck, at 8 AM J trains leaving 121st. St headed for Jamaica are more crowded than J trains headed to Manhattan
Lol. It's all perception too! It is actually faster to use the J/Z to lower Manhattan (Midtown may be another story) than to use the E train! It may only be a few minutes, but it's still faster. Now that is from Jamaica Center! That doesn't include the eastbound trip some people take to Sutphin from stations like 111th or 121st. It's just perception that the E is faster.
Now if the J had an express track, it would be able to fully compete with the E, even with perception, but that topic has already been beaten to death here already.
It is a time savings from Woodhaven (J) to midtown.
Yep! The connection created more bottleneck for the Queens Blvd line and that was the biggest mistake they (MTA) could've made.. Without upgrading the J trackage.
N bway
That's absurd on its face. The connection made both lines more convenient and increased total demand and total ridership.
Your logic sounds like this: "We know a lot more people would use the subway if we built a connection here. Let's not do it because we really don't want them to ride."
Happily, that's not the (il)logic the TA used.
No.. that's not what I'm saying... What I'm saying is, the MTA should have anticipate an overflow of passengers favoring the "E" once the connection was made.. And that if express service was provided (via Jamaica), the entire outcome would have been different.
N Bwy
I understand. Now your post makes a lot more sense. Thank you.
The purpose of Archer Ave was to get Queens Blvd riders headed towards lower Manhattan to take the J and not the E. In this way, it has worked. But it's offset by the number of J riders who ride into Jamaica from Woodhaven & Richmond Hill to use the Queens IND lines into midtown. So overall, it's failed to decrease IND ridership from Jamaica.
It may have failed to decrease IND ridership, but I guess the plus is that the J line riders seem to have gotten an easy ride midtown through the "backwards" ride.
It failed because the MTA did not think ahead... like fixing the J train tracks so service is speed up.. Maybe that could have included express service too.
N Bwy
I agree. I think that the whole Jamaica Line is a failure the way it is now. It is quite possibly the only line in the whole subway system that's not really carrying its weight. When I say this, I mean in terms of passengers actually riding the line into Manhattan, without transferring to some other line. Just as you've said, without a real express service, passengers generally leave the line. In my opinion, this weak, one-hour skip-stop service isn't getting the job done.
From what I've observed this is what's happening on the Jamaica line. For argument's sake, I'll use the morning rush as an example. We have a good chunk of passengers between Woodhaven and 121 Street riding in opposite-peak direction to get the crowded E. The E is perceived to be quicker so people flee to it, helping to crowd that train. Passengers from about 85th Street to Van Siclen get on the train only to get off at Broadway Junction to transfer to the A. The A is perceived to be quicker so people flee to that train. This crowds the A heading into Manhattan. Note that both the A and E are express in Brooklyn and Queens respectively. It really isn't until Myrtle Avenue where we have a decent number of passengers that actually want to ride the line into Manhattan. Not coincidentally, this is also where the J/Z makes its short express run. The evening rush generally sees a reverse of what I've stated. Until a middle express track is installed between 121 Street and Crescent, the Jamaica line will continue to be a failure.
David Greenberger has shown why, operationally, the J is doing exactly what it supposed to. If the J is a failure (it is not), it is only TA marketing that is at fault.
Having said that, I would fully support not just a middle track but a full four-track service on the J. Hell, stack the fourth track up on top of the third track if you have to. f course, these tracks will merge prior to entering the Williamsburg Bridge.
"Having said that, I would fully support not just a middle track but a full four-track service on the J. Hell, stack the fourth track up on top of the third track if you have to. f course, these tracks will merge prior to entering the Williamsburg Bridge."
It will take too LONG to install a fourth track.. The best option is to install the third track, build a single track along Jamaica Avenue.. and you have the fastest service to Manhattan. The only other thing I would do besides building the track, is building a new express station at Woodhaven Blvd. Unfortunately, that will mean remove the current station, and placing the station in the middle Woodhaven Blvd..
It should take less than 5 years to improve the line.
N Broadway Line
Three tracks are better than two - no doubt. I like the idea of an express station at Woodhaven. That wouldn't be the only one, would it?
Yes. To put one at Cypress Hill would require extra time. The only problem would be installing a single track along Jamaica Avenue... And how to manage trains that uses the track and Southern bound Manhattan Service. But that shouldn't be too difficult, since, they area do it with the M which crosses in front of two approaching J trains. What they can do is elevate the third track to the point that it can cross over the local track without interfering with traffic flow (something like the #7 line). But that will take much more time.
N Bwy
WHile Cypress Hlls would be a good location for an express station physically, that station doesn't really warrant express service. It is one of the least used stations in the system.
One of the few public outdoor swimming pools in Brooklyn used to be located at the Cypress Hills station. It was actually located at the corner of Jamaica Ave & Hemlock St, with the entrance on Jamaica Ave at the foot of the station stairs. In its heyday people from all over used the el to get to Cypress Hills Pool.
There is an urban legend that someon actually dove into the pool from the west end of the Queens bound platform. I haven't been there in many years, but understand that the pool was removed, and replaced by a new elementary school. It was a very large pool!
For some reason I have a vague memory of a pool along the J train somewhere (seeing it from the train, and I thought it may be on the south side of the el.) It didn't happen to still be there in the early 90's, did it? Maybe I'm just imagining this memory if it was removed before 1989 or so, but I do vaguely remember seeing it.
I left NY long before the pool was closed.
Perhaps someone else here might have an idea as to when it was removed.
Yup, it was there up until 1994/95. My mother's family frequented that pool when she was a child in the early-mid 50's.
Good, I'm not going crazy, I really did see it from the el back then!
Funny how when things look really bad something interesting from the past comes up. Contractor doing roofing rehabilition of 239ths shop blew uncured urethane foam all over the place damaging more than thirty autos (not subway cars.) Spent all night on IN and phone!
Cypress Hills Swim Club...Jamaica Ave South...across the street from the cemetary. Bastion of 'Whitelandia' until a lawsuit opened it up.
Family business for many years...always remember the lions spitting out water in the pool. Family started dying off...manager took it over until his health failed. never swam in the pool....my visits were to fix the junky video games, pinballs and something else that operated in the summer season. Getting High Frequency message from space right now....the ladys name was Heidi...office at the gate. 'Little Italy' and 'Deutschlund' combined, five blocks north of Atlantic Avenue. CI peter
Those water spouting lions were pretty neat!!
one possiblity is to build a one track line from the Myrtle ave station[using the M] along Bushwick ave/jamaica ave..from Cypress hills....IT would be a challenge from an enginering standpoint,but it could be done.
If you mean that the J line decreases ridership on the Queens Blvd. E, then you're wrong. The connection allows just as many J riders free access to the E, more than offsetting the increased J line patronage after Archer Ave. opened 14 years ago. It's failed in that mission. Perhaps it's done something else successfully. The Archer Ave's main success has been in increased flexibility and options for Jamaica and southeastern Queens commuters.
Thank you,somebody give this guy a hand!!! I kinda stayed clear of the one just to see the reaction to the question/statement made by the original poster.. as everybody knows,The Eastern divisaion is my all time favorite ... and I have gone through the ringer about how it can [and should]be improved. So with this one,I 'm just gnna sit back and watch what shakes losse before I start my reblutles. Kamelove out.
Has anyone contacted the MTA about these plans? If so, what were the outcome?
N Bwy
What you describe doesn't really sound like a failure. The line seems to get a good crowd for most of its length. You can't expect full density for the whole line. After all, even the 4 has excess capacity till 86th St.
I don't know about that. I've been on several J/Z trains. The train usually empties out (or get crowded) at either Broadway Junction peak-direction or Sutphin Blvd reverse-peak. People want to head to some other express train. The Lexington Ave Expresses on the other hand, isn't helping to crowd express trains on some other subway line, while it itself runs relatively empty. That's the one difference.
Actually, the number of J riders who "backtrack" to get the E to midtown doesn't decline west of Woodhaven Blvd. Even people from Cypress Hills do this. A LOT do it from Forest Parkway.
I can understand it from 102 St and east, maybe even Woodhaven. But west of there! From Cypress Hills, these people must be nuts to go all the way east to Sutphin just to go west again!
It's faster than taking the J into Manhattan. It's more convenient than transferring at Eastern Parkway. My wife does this from Forest Parkway every day. I did for years when I worked on 28th St near 9th Ave.
I was thinking of the alternatives...Eastern Parkway (long escalator and transfer from hell...or taking the J to the A or C at Fulton.....or the J to Essex to the F to West 4th to the ACE. I can see how the Forest Parkway to Sutphin to the E may be less stressful and possibly faster (considering transfer walk time between transfer stations and waiting for other trains.
See, maybe a combination of the C and the J (with another letter like K) through Chrystie may be a useful service.
Nope. The problem isn't with where the J goes, but the infrastructure of the entire J line. With all those curves, timers, the grade crossing at Myrtle and the speed limits on the Williamsburgh bridge, no Chrystie St. line would ever draw any of the current J to E riders away.
"It's faster than taking the J into Manhattan. It's more convenient than transferring at Eastern Parkway. My wife does this from Forest Parkway every day. I did for years when I worked on 28th St near 9th Ave."
What about J to the L to the 8th Ave. train? The L comes pretty frequently in rush hour and (I believe) is an easy transfer at Eastern Parkway.
That's an acceptable alternative....if you're destination is along 14th St.
The "L" is Such a slooooooowwwww line..
N Bwy
Well at least it's a great line to railfan and take pictures. It's like a tour bus to me (or tour train).
"This is a Canarsie-bound L train. Livonia Av is next. Stand clear of the closng doors ...........................................................................................................................................................................................................................now to your right, youll see the abandoned Linden shops......."
I believe the L train needs to be put out to pasture, at least the southern end. I mentioned at another post that L trains should be rerouted to run to the new Gateway Center. Close E 105 St. and Rockaway Pkwy, and run the L on a spanking new concrete viaduct onto Linden Blvd, then head south on Pennsylvania Ave, then onto a ROW next to the Belt Pkwy, cross a bridge over the Creek, and terminate at Gateway with a solarium type of terminal. A new train yard for the L line can be built where the dump was across the Belt Pkwy from Starrett City. It will bring transit relief to East New York.
"The "L" is Such a slooooooowwwww line.."
Once again, we have perception vs. reality. According to the published MTA schedules, both the L local and the A express take about 26 min. from East New York to 8th Ave and 14th St.
The L goes slower between these points, but it goes a lot less distance too.
Actually the L is a very direct route between ENY and 14th-8th. It's a shame that they didn't build it with an express track, as it would be a very quick and direct ride. I assume they didn't build it with an express track was because the streets are very narrow there, or maybe they just didn't have the budget to do it.
I am trying to prove if my theory is correct. Can it be possible to have an express "L" line? My suggestion is to have an express track or tracks underneath the original local line between Myrtle Av - Bedford Av. If this can happened I feel a Nostrand Av Line (2/5 trains)can have the same potential.
Just a thaught!!!
Let's use the money to build the Second Ave. subway.
I know that! But I just want to know if it is possible? I am not trying to make it a reality!!
I'm sure it's possible, although it would be expensive. It believe it was talked about years ago. Also, a few years back (on a similar note) they planned to make a skip/stop service run on the Canarsie line. As for the express track, it would have to run under the current line as the streets are too narrow to add a "bypass track" in the same alignment. I would assume both that the express stations would be Broadway Junction, Myrtle, and Lorimer. New stations would have to be made under the current stations. Anything is possible if the money is available and unlimited.
Would it be a good service? - yes
Likely to happen? - probably not.
It is a nice fantasy line though!
That is the same thing I said about the Nostrand Avenue Line (2, 5) I hate that portion of the line. Just a dream
B 49 limited
"But it's offset by the number of J riders who ride into Jamaica from Woodhaven & Richmond Hill to use the Queens IND lines into midtown. So overall, it's failed to decrease IND ridership from Jamaica."
It wasn't supposed to decrease IND ridership. It was built in anticipation of helping in an environment of overall growth of subway ridership. IND ridership has grown, but the J/Z has fulfilled its function too - the IND would be more crowded without it.
"It wasn't supposed to decrease IND ridership. It was built in anticipation of helping in an environment of overall growth of subway ridership. IND ridership has grown, but the J/Z has fulfilled its function too - the IND would be more crowded without it."
hmmmmm....
Chris makes a valid point about the Jamaica and Queens Blvd Lines.. So I don't see why anyone would debate him on it. Unless they just want to disagree.
N Bwy
The problem is, I see an important flaw in his argumwnt. So I'm disagreeing because I have a valid, informed reason to disagree.
What is the flaw?
N Bwy
We're arguing two different things here. You're asserting that the Archer Ave. line was not built to decrease Queens IND ridership from Jamaica and east. In that sense, you'd be correct. But I'm asserting that the only legitimate reason for building it was to do the very thing you're saying it wasn't meant to do. If that's true, Archer Ave. was a failure in concept, if not a failure in practice.
I just think it would have been more fiscally prudent to have left the el in Jamaica, spent a few million fixing the infrastructure up, then divert a few of the busses that fed the E/F at 169/179 St. to 168th St/Jamaica Ave. The 2nd Ave subway was needed much more than this line.
"I just think it would have been more fiscally prudent to have left the el in Jamaica, spent a few million fixing the infrastructure up, then divert a few of the busses that fed the E/F at 169/179 St. to 168th St/Jamaica Ave. The 2nd Ave subway was needed much more than this line."
I don't know if I can totally agree with you here.. The Archer Avenue connection was definately an improvement over once EL structure because it provides a connect between Queen Blvd and Jamaica Avenue with LIRR riders.
But a better idea would be to have left the el connection and build an "E" extension that would parallel both the former EL (J line) and the Long Island Rail Road.
Although I agree with you that the money could have been better spent... like a 2nd Ave line.
N BWY
>I don't know if I can totally agree with you here..
>The Archer Avenue connection was definately an
>improvement over once EL structure because it
>provides a connect between Queen Blvd and Jamaica
>Avenue with LIRR riders.
The LIRR/BMT connection already existed in practice. The distance from the current Supthin Blvd/Archer Ave. station is not that much less than the distance from the LIRR and the old elevated station.
Speaking of the Archer Ave Subway, is the Jamaica-Van Wyck station located by where the Queens Blvd or Metropolitan Ave stations used to be?
Queens Blvd...
A block from the expressway.
N Broadway
It's located between where both used to be, perhaps a little closer to Metro.
"The LIRR/BMT connection already existed in practice. The distance from the current Supthin Blvd/Archer Ave. station is not that much less than the distance from the LIRR and the old elevated station."
I agree! Except it was an outside connection which require walking outside.
N Bwy
Sutphin Blvd. was an "A/B" stop during the days of skip-stop J or QJ/KK service just for that reason.
It wasn't supposed to decrease IND ridership.
It was designed to give E riders from Jamaica the option of using the J/Z to get to the financial district. It's been mildly successful in that mission.
It was built in anticipation of helping in an environment of overall growth of subway ridership. IND ridership has grown, but the J/Z has fulfilled its function too - the IND would be more crowded without it.
Not really. No J riders would backtrack to Jamaica to use the IND. Those who use the J or Z today instead of the E would offset this group of people. E ridership today, if it ran to 179th as it did before 1988, would be roughly the same as it is now.
As I 've said before ,both of you[Chris/Ron],have valid points concerning the function of the Archer ave subway... but, I can truthully say,this route was part of a much larger plan!! Now as ''planned'' the 63rd st subway was routed to an Forest hills junction with the Queens Blvd line[71Avenue],after which it would've merged with it, heading east. The Archer[SOUTHEAST QUEENS SUBWAY LINE]would be routed from Van WYCK Blvd to Springfield Blvd[upper level,and from 121 street to Hollis/Queens Villiage on the lower level[J LINE].... Now, the Jamaica line was never intended to give riders more direct link to Downtown Manhattan.The Queens Superexpress, was on the other hand,designed to reduce the loads on the QB Expresses from Jamaica,and add new ridership[with a new station at Woodside for LIRR/Number 7 trains] from points east and south of it. With it's direct connections to the Second ave subway,the problems with the E/F would not exists today. Now because the Crosstown Express,Second avenue and South Jamaica lines were not built,the T.A had to come up with SOMETHING to make all that money spent[or wasted ,depends on how you look at it]make sense. So began the ''For Downtown Manhattan,USE the J service.It will get you there faster,and under less croweded conditions''crap. I'm not saying Archer was a flop,but it was built as ''half a loaf'',missing it vitial parts that made it worth while.As it stands today... its not good enough...and thats my two cents worth...
No,your wrong.The Southeast Queens Subway,was proposed to tapp into ares that lack subway service,and give riders a new transfer option between the new services at Sutphin Blvd,and Parsons Blvd,before /after diverged into there new routings[QUEENS VILL.for the J and Springfield Blvd for the E] ALSO,the new line was trade off of the uncompleated Second Ave line,and again to revitalize the Jamaica ave strip/coridor/area by removing the EL,bringing direct Queens Blvd service to the LONG ISLAND RAILROAD'S front door and a few others.Now, as built[today] It's nowhere near living up to what it was SUPPOSE to do......because it's missing it vital links,[and most likly won;t get them]the line is running maybe a third of the ridership it's was designed to do.
Running the J east at least a couple more stops would help, but there's no capital funding available to do it now.
oh there money,alright.But not for this extention..
Jamaica Center is a pretty big employment area. How do you know a lot of those people aren't getting off there?
Plus, you have reverse commuters going to jobs on the island.
And what about folks connecting with the Queens Blvd line because they are working in retail stores in Forest Hills?
The Archer Connection is quite useful, but you haven't shown that riders going east are using Queens Blvd. to get into Manhattan.
"Heck, at 8 AM J trains leaving 121st. St headed for Jamaica are more crowded than J trains headed to Manhattan"
8AM is already late in terms of rush hour. Do you know what the 6AM trains look like, or the ones at 7AM? That's more relevant.
They are, I see it everytime I work the line. About a third to a half get off at Sutphin for the E and a few more at PA.
You see it weekends too. It is a usage pattern.
I chose the 8 AM time at random. All during the AM rush, a lot of J line riders ride into Jamaica to connect to the E. While some do this to reach destinations in Queens, the majority do so to get into Manhattan. I used to do it a lot. My wife does, and many other people in my neighborhood. The J to E ride is a faster way to get to midtown than taking the J to Bway ENY or into Manhattan and transferring there.
The truth is, it's not so bad that they removed the El from Jamaica Ave. It is bad because they did it so soon before the Archer line was opened ... The reason that Jamaica AVe suffered so badly after the removal of the el is because for close to 10 years, there was NO subway service to the heart of Jamaica.
While being without subway service for over a decade certainly didn't help matters, the fact remains that downtown Jamaica had been in decline well before the El's removal. It wasn't faring well in competition with suburban malls and had been getting steadily more "downscale."
It's also worthy of note that downtown Jamaica didn't really begin to recover for almost ten years following the arrival of the Archer Avenue subway.
You are correct that Jamaica Ave was in decline even before the removal of the el. However, removing the el didn't help matters, as if cut off transportation to the area. It also made it harder to travel to the LIRR via the subway. While they were trying to help Jamaica Avenue by removing the el, in actuality they made a bad situation worse.
Very true.
"It's also worthy of note that downtown Jamaica didn't really begin to recover for almost ten years following the arrival of the Archer Avenue subway. "
False statement. I was through the area before and after the subway was completed and was there regularly in the early 90's. It was already noticeably better then.
These kind of impressions often happen with inaccurate second-hand information.
All that governament money going in helped more than anything.
The SSA move from Lefrak City around 1991 was a huge shot in the arm. There were a few more smaller projects around there that also helped and were in the works before Archer opened.
Government did have a lot to do with it.
However, without the subway's opening you eventually could have taken that whole place and run a fence around it marked, "Landfill."
I'm glad we're beyond that now.
Government did have a lot to do with it.
However, without the subway's opening you eventually could have taken that whole place and run a fence around it marked, "Landfill."
It might be more accurate to say that government has too much to do with it. As far as I can tell, much of the recent development in Jamaica is either government-owned or government-subsidized. While that's not necessarily a bad thing, it does mean that the area's attractiveness to private-sector developers is still quite limited. Few if any major developments are going to be built without some sort of taxpayer help. Maybe that will change as time goes on, but for now I'd stop short of calling downtown Jamaica a success.
"It might be more accurate to say that government has too much to do with it. As far as I can tell, much of the recent development in Jamaica is either government-owned or government-subsidized."
So you haven't visited the place and walked around, have you? That explains why you're starting to post fiction here.
The facts: The first phase was indeed government development: the subway, the federal office building at Jamaica Center. And AirTrain is a government development as well. All true. And York College is part of CUNY, but that was already there.
One Jamaica Center is not a government development (shopping mall with movie theatres and main-line tenants). Neither is the flower market. Neither is the supermarket.
And most of the existing stores have seen large increases in business. Many are discount and "ethnic" merchandisers, so to speak - but that's OK.
The crime rate there has fallen faster than most of the rest of the city - but, of course, it did have the farthest to fall.
The hotel/conference center being considered now is dependent on AirTrain, but it is, in itself, not government-sponsored.
Is Jamaica as successful as downtown Manhattan pre-9/11? No - but remember that the World Trade Center was also considered "too much government." But compared to how it was prior to 1987, Jamaica is clearly and unequivocally "most improved" in the city. That's saying a lot.
"s far as I can tell,"
You can't tell anything at all. Get out of your suburban Long Island home, get on the LIRR and get off at Jamaica. Go to the street, and walk around. Eat lunch in a local restaurant and people-watch. Then walk arund some more.
Then we can debate this properly.
One Jamaica Center is not a government development (shopping mall with movie theatres and main-line tenants). Neither is the flower market. Neither is the supermarket.
One Jamaica Center got all sorts of direct public-sector assistance. Most likely the flower market and supermarket did too, and even if they were built without any subsidies they'd hardly be indicative of a neighborhood "renaissance." On a more basic level, I doubt you'd see any significant development in downtown Jamaica if the federal and state governments hadn't "primed the pump," so to speak, by siting major public facilities in the area.
The hotel/conference center being considered now is dependent on AirTrain, but it is, in itself, not government-sponsored.
More pump-priming. As you note, moreover, the hotel project is being "considered." The Second Avenue subway was being "considered" when Calvin Coolidge was President.
You can't tell anything at all. Get out of your suburban Long Island home, get on the LIRR and get off at Jamaica. Go to the street, and walk around. Eat lunch in a local restaurant and people-watch. Then walk arund some more.
Hmmm, what do I see within ten or so miles of my Long Island home? Wally World is building two huge stores in Islandia and East Setauket. New commercial and industrial buildings are popping up like mushrooms around MacArthur Airport. A big Lowe's recently opened near me in Medford. A vast megaplex movie theater is nearing completion at Exit 62 on the Expressway. Office buildings are under construction in Hauppauge and Medford. Two hotels recently opened along the Expressway in Hauppague and Farmingville, and a third one, which looks like the biggest of the bunch, is set to open soon just north of the Ronkonkoma LIRR station. I could go on and on. Point is, this construction is all private-sector stuff. You're not going to see that in Jamaica.
"Hmmm, what do I see within ten or so miles of my Long Island home? Wally World is building two huge stores in Islandia and East Setauket. New commercial and industrial buildings are popping up like mushrooms around MacArthur Airport. A big Lowe's recently opened near me in Medford. A vast megaplex movie theater is nearing completion at Exit 62 on the Expressway. Office buildings are under construction in Hauppauge and Medford. Two hotels recently opened along the Expressway in Hauppague and Farmingville, and a third one, which looks like the biggest of the bunch, is set to open soon just north of the Ronkonkoma LIRR station. I could go on and on. Point is, this construction is all private-sector stuff. "
Really? You mean none of the things you see get any subsidies at all? Road building, property tax relief, zoning variances, development funds from the state and county...oh, and of course the Airport is all private sector too, like the Federal Aviation Corporation. Does that trade on NASDAQ or the NYSE?
Sure there's a lot of private development on the Island. But it's easy to do, when developera don't have to follow as many land-use rules, or worry about the environment or do any number of other things like they do in the city. They don't have to deal with poverty stricken neighborhoods - they just bribe County officials and rip up native forest to build.
And what happens after the malls constructed within ten miles of you start to fail due to saturation? Who pays to remediate the bligfht of several big box stores with nothing in them and plenty of graffitti on them? Why, it's the Suffolk County Corporation (or the Nassau County Corporation) NYSE ticker symbol: SCHMUK
I think maybe you don't know what you're talking about, Peter.
re Long Island development
Really? You mean none of the things you see get any subsidies at all? Road building, property tax relief, zoning variances, development funds from the state and county...oh, and of course the Airport is all private sector too, like the Federal Aviation Corporation. Does that trade on NASDAQ or the NYSE?
Zoning variances aren't subsidies. They are simply exceptions from government regulations. These developments didn't get property tax relief, as far as I know, and if they did, the relief would be in the form of deferrals rather than outright exemptions (let alone direct subsidies). I can't think of any public roads which have been built to serve private developments.
Most of the developments near ISP are not related to the airport. ISP is not big enough of an airport that it is likely to serve as a catalyst for area development - it's not as if 10,000 people commute to work at the airport each day.
Sure there's a lot of private development on the Island. But it's easy to do, when developera don't have to follow as many land-use rules, or worry about the environment or do any number of other things like they do in the city. They don't have to deal with poverty stricken neighborhoods - they just bribe County officials and rip up native forest to build.
Hardly. Long Island is a veritable hotbed of NIMBYism. Just about any development proposal will bring people out of the woodwork screaming about environmental degredation, loss of open space, increased traffic, etc. Yet most of the projects get built.
And what happens after the malls constructed within ten miles of you start to fail due to saturation? Who pays to remediate the bligfht of several big box stores with nothing in them and plenty of graffitti on them? Why, it's the Suffolk County Corporation (or the Nassau County Corporation) NYSE ticker symbol: SCHMUK
Very little of this has happened so far. And those few developments that have failed (e.g. the Coram shopping center at the intersection of routes 112 and 25, or the plaza in Centerreach across from Wally World) have been revitalized by new developments.
Not every development on Long Island attracts NIMBYs, though some undoubtedly do. But you're seriously exaggerating that if you claim every project was bedeviled by it.
Actually, some of it isn't really NIMBY- it's genuine concern abvout the destruction of environment caused by developers who have bought and paid for county officials.
OK. But let's assume that what you've said is true (and I suspect you are underestimating the damage done by failed malls as well), let's move on to the next item in your post. You said these developments are occurring within ten miles of you.
I was referring to "downtown" style development within walking distance of a major train station. Development which is visibly transforming a neighborhood (but you've never been there, of course).
You refer to scattered developments occurring hodge-podge over a wide swath.
Why should these two situations be comparable?
You forgot the new DMV and NYSUI which are anchor tenants. The NYC offices relocated to Jamaica Ave. The rehab/expansion of the court buildings, all the temp office space rented. Andy Coumo HUD shack, the police station rehab, the adult learning center near the library, the riduculous amount of space the census rented.
Add a few thousand well paid people to any blighted area who may only buy lunch and go to the drug store during lunch and add to that the few thousand with business with them and almost any neighborhood takes off.
"Add a few thousand well paid people to any blighted area who may only buy lunch and go to the drug store during lunch and add to that the few thousand with business with them and almost any neighborhood takes off."
That's how a lot of Manhattan areas took off initially. With time, they also acquired dinner crowds and a nightlife.
One of the barometers will be the movie theatres and the surrounding restaurants. If they do well, the area will continue to improve.
Supermarket and nighttime businesses (besides White Castle and the hookers)
Where is the White Castle?? Dont need to know about the other nighttime business......
Your description completely ignores the fact that local residents are shopping on Jamaica Avenue a lot more. It's teeming with people every time I see it.
Lower-middle income does not equal "blighted." In this case, their appearance helped remove some of the blight.
Of course they are. You bring money into an area and more stores come in and then more traffic follows. By bringing in all those construction workers, then government workers and people looking for government services you increase the local demand for goods and services. By taking all that RE out of commission the area does not have that empty storefront look. If it was purely the neighborhood on its own they would have gotten a supermarket which seems to be a benchmark item on development. Plus there has been a general increase in RE prices which has encouraged many areas to come back on there own without such amounts of new money.
The subway was only a small part of this.
Jamaica isn't even close to what it was when I was a kid (late 70's/early 80's), and the neighborhood was already in decline. Loss of the el sealed it's fate.
You're quite fond of the El. Understandable, of course.
Business volume and crime statistics today show quite clearly the opposite of your perceptions. But if you felt comfortable in the area back then it speaks well of you. There are many who looked at the place as if it were the back side of the moon back then.
Jamaica today isn't the Jamaica of old. Nobody travels there from surrounding areas to shop. This probably has more to do with the changing climate of shopping from retail neighborhoods to suburban style malls than it does with the loss of the el. If Edith Bunker were alive today, she wouldn't go to Gertz to shop for her dresses. She'd probably get Archie to drive her to Queens Center. The new Jamaica's resurgance has more to do with the court house built after the el came down, along with restoration of J service via Archer Ave. in 1988.
And I never mentioned the crime rate. Even back when my family shopped there, we wouldn't be caught dead there at night.
This probably has more to do with the changing climate of shopping from retail neighborhoods to suburban style malls than it does with the loss of the el. If Edith Bunker were alive today, she wouldn't go to Gertz to shop for her dresses.
That is very true. Actually the decline of Jamaica's shopping district is actually very similar to it's suburban counterparts. Downtown areas throughtout the region have suffered because of strip malls and shopping centers. Jamaica's shopping district is the city's version of suburban downtown areas like Bay Shore and Patchogue on LI. All three (and many other downtowns) were major shopping destinations before the dawn of "the mall". Bay Shore is still struggling with very high vacancy rates and Patchogue too to a lesser extent. So while the removal of the el in Jamaica was probably not "the cause" of the decline of Downtown Jamaica, it sure didn't help as it added nails to the coffin. Changing shopping patterns were also to blame. Of course it doesn't help to take away the few remaining shopper's transit line to town......
1) Do you believe the run to 168 Street should have been left as is?
Only until 1988, when the Archer Avenue extension was completed.
2) Do you think Archer Ave Extension and the 168 St Terminal can co-exist together?
Too close.
3) Do you think the Liberty Ave line should have been used instead of the Jamaica Line?
Nah. The Jamaica line was in a better place for the connection. However I could see a future extension of the Liberty line to meet an extended (E).
4) Do you believe Queens Blvd or 121 St were sufficient temporary terminals?
Nope.
5) Is the Archer Ave Extension better off not being built?
I wouldn't say that at all. Now the Jamaica line connects directly with the Queens Blvd line and the LIRR, and soon AirTrain. Rather, I think it should be extened, the (E) in a southeaterly direction and the (J)/(Z) east along Archer or Jamaica Ave to 168th, or beyond. Then it would be everything the old el was and more.
:-) Andrew
The Archer Avenue project was the greatest idea that the MTA could have built, because allows people to connect between the North Queens lines with the Brooklyn/southern Queens Line. Before, passengers didn't have a transfer option which was very ackward.
N Broadway
"1) Do you believe the run to 168 Street should have been left as is?"
YES - but only if a connection was made with the E. But where would the E go at this point - Archer Avenue?
"2) Do you think Archer Ave Extension and the 168 St Terminal can co-exist together?"
No.. It would be a waste at this point because the J would already go in the same area.
"3) Do you think the Liberty Ave line should have been used instead of the Jamaica Line?
No.. Because I have another idea for the Liberty Avenue line.. like Linden Blvd.
"4) Do you believe Queens Blvd or 121 St were sufficient temporary terminals?"
No.. because they did not provide a valid connection or was cut short of covering a major city area.
"5) Is the Archer Ave Extension better off not being built?"
Yes and no? It depends on whether the 168th Street route remain untouch. And, it depends on whether the money was used for a more important project like the 2nd Avenue subway. But overall, the Archer Avenue extension was a very welcoming addition of the subway system.
N Broadway
About 1969-1972 I lived near King Park. The BMT brought many shoppers to the Jamaica Avenue commercial district, and the decade without service may have been one of the major factors in the temporary loss of shoppers. Now, the district is busy again. Service changes often bring surprises, and one of the biggest surprises was the crowd from the east end of the J that travels to Manhattan via the Sutphin Blvd transfer station. I presume it is mainly a preference for midtown, especially since there is no K or KK. No further construction is needed to improve service under Hillside Avenue. Terminating all local service at Continental Avenue is dumb, as the 179th yards were built for easy turnbacks of both local and express. For that matter, the E turnback at Jamaica Center is frequently clogged, and the eastbound trains wait at Sutphin for an empty track.
Service changes often bring surprises, and one of the biggest surprises was the crowd from the east end of the J that travels to Manhattan via the Sutphin Blvd transfer station. I presume it is mainly a preference for midtown, especially since there is no K or KK.
I think a lot less people would do the Eastbound J thing to go to Manhattan if there was a KK train to midtown. That may be the reason a lot of them do the reverse move.
You brought up the locals terminating at Continental. I never really thought about it. Why do they do that on such a busy line like Queens Blvd? I would assume the local stations east of Continental would benefit from at least either the R or V continuing further than Continental. Why do they end all local service there?
Because customers in that area wanted a one-seat ride on an express. They bitched and moaned about getting on an R train at 169th Street, then having to get off at an express stop to catch the F or E.
I agree with your preference, but that's not what the TA was hearing by mail, phone and from elected officials being bugged by their constituents.
Fewer switchmen, platform people to change signs (less of a problem with time), guaranteed packed trains. All makes it an easy sell.
The TA loves crowded trains, not crush loaded but SRO plus. It the best return for them without the trains slowing down due to dwell time.
That is the real reason I believe the Second Ave is doomed. Unless they can replace bus service why would they want to double eastside capacity (and costs) when usage is not going to double (yes it will increase but double?). I would also add that they tried to get rid of bus service when Archer was fininshed and no one was having it.
No way you could cut service on the Upper Entitled Side.
"I would also add that they tried to get rid of bus service when Archer was fininshed and no one was having it."
You're misinterpreting what happened there. There is no way the Archer Avenue line can replace bus service to the area. The TA reorganized bus service to reroute buses to Jamaica Center, and somne of the agency's attempts to streamline it were heckled, naturally.
"That is the real reason I believe the Second Ave is doomed. Unless they can replace bus service why would they want to double eastside capacity (and costs) when usage is not going to double"
Nonsense. No one at the TA minds running a bigger railroad, and when every politician in the city is telling them to build it (and the Governor signed off on it) there is no political downside either (and no NIMBY).
I am not talking about the bus hub near the library or the switching from 179 to PA. Lines like the 54, 24 and 56. Especially the 56 which is almost completely duplicated by the J.
>>and when every politician in the city is telling them to build it (and the Governor signed off on it) there is no political downside either (and no NIMBY). <<
Every politician is against homelessness too but....
"Every politician is against homelessness too but...."
Politicians don't allocate money to build homeless shelters. Politicians approved money to build the SAS. Big difference.
so when is it getting built?
Engineering is complete. Construction contracts for the Stubway (north of 63rd Street) to be let in 2004.
"Engineering is complete. Construction contracts for the Stubway (north of 63rd Street) to be let in 2004."
The MTA web site says "preliminary engineering is complete". "Final design" (which is detailed engineering and requires a whole lot of engineering effort) is only supposed to start at the beginning of 2004.
Do you know something the MTA isn't saying in public, or is the MTA lying on its web site and telling the truth elsewhere, or did you misspeak?
"The MTA web site says "preliminary engineering is complete". "Final design" (which is detailed engineering and requires a whole lot of engineering effort) is only supposed to start at the beginning of 2004."
Yes, and construction will begin as well.
The MTA web site says "preliminary engineering is complete". "Final design" (which is detailed engineering and requires a whole lot of engineering effort) is only supposed to start at the beginning of 2004.
Read the entire graph, not just the parts you like.
Here's the graph.
http://www.mta.info/planning/sas/sas_sched.htm
If I may return to 1970, when I lived on 153rd Street near Jamaica Avenue. Both the B56 and the J gave service along almost the same route, but there was so much business that both services had heavy loads. There are many people who will choose the slower bus because it stops every few blocks, or because it is easier to climb into the bus instead of climbing the stairs to an elevated train, or because bone condition, not time, is important. About age 30, I had knee trouble, and I was glad that the M6 would take me from 42nd Street to South Ferry to catch the boat to Staten Island. After the PCC's were taken off McDonald-Vanderbilt, the TA discontinued service under the Culver Line by the excuse that people could climb stairs. That was during the era of service cutbacks, when the "proof" was the resulting lower ridership! Joe
My point was that the MTA plan was cut bus service not rerouted service as Ron claims. I actually do live around there, have no car and try to keep track of this stuff as I use the main library often and either walk or take the bus there.
As for the merits of cutting service I take the 54 to work my M jobs and if there are mroe than 5 people on that bus it is alot. If I take the 24 for an L job 20 is a good number (most get on around Woodhaven. Days is a different matter on the midnights it's dead.
Even the 56 many people get on at ENY and then get off at Cypress Hills. I am guessing if they were not getting the free Metrocard Transfer they would take the escalator up to the J.
"That is the real reason I believe the Second Ave is doomed. Unless they can replace bus service why would they want to double eastside capacity (and costs) when usage is not going to double (yes it will increase but double?)."
Only capital costs increase. These come out of a different budget.
Operating costs for a given level of service (e.g., quite full but not crush loaded) are virtually the same whether it's 60 tph on the Lex or 40 on the Lex and 20 on the SAS. (Yes, I know there is track maintenance, etc., but the big cost is the operating crews day after day).
Especially since an SAS train, being B division, can carry 30% more people than a Lex train.
This doesn't guarantee the SAS being built, of course, but it's not a factor preventing it either.
It is easier to get to midtown on the QB lines. Your point about the 179 St terminal is correct regarding subway train operation, but it does not correspond to what a majority of the area's riders have told MTA.
The subway system's mission is not to operate trains with maximum mechanical efficiency - it's to fulfill customer demand as efficiently as it can.
I would have preferred both local and express service to continue to 179 St, but my view is in the minority.
" No further construction is needed to improve service under Hillside Avenue."
Not true. Extending the subway along Hillside further into Queens would help a lot of riders, including reverse commuters coming to clean the big mansions in Jamaica Estates, as well as apartment dwellers, riders on express buses whose bus ride would be a bit shorter, etc. etc.
You wait at 169 to get in to 179 too and there are fewer F's than E's.
If you REALLY want the fast turnarounds you need more people to help do them.
I thank you subtalkers for participating on this opinion style Q & A. I have to admit that there are good and bad reasons for having and not having the Archer Ave Line. I try at times to put a sensible post and at times they don't work. I'm glad you guys participated on this one. I especially loved RonInBaysides's "mental masturbation" bit. You made my day dude. The idea for the Liberty Ave project to connect with an E train extension sounds good too. Maybe some day, the Archer Ave and Liberty Ave lines may connect together and run as far as Green Acres or Valley Stream. It may be pushing it but anythings possible.
Looking forward to subtalking again with you guys. Now I'll think of another intresting sensible post for you guys.
LATER
And thanks again.
BROOKLYN
You're welcome.
For the record, a Liberty Av extension would be really cool.
I agree.. But it isn't a priority extension though..
N Bwy
I especially loved RonInBaysides's "mental masturbation" bit.
Do it too much, however, and your mind's eye will go blind.
Along with their story on the reopening of the South Ferry loop, Monday's Post also had this story on plans to completely rebuild the underground passages at the Broadway-Nassau station along with condemning the buildings on the block between Broadway, Nassau, Fulton and John streets for the proposed new mass transit hub.
If they do this, then a pedestrian walkway all the way from the World Financial Center to Fulton-Williams street would be possible, though getting past the J/M tracks at Nassau street ought to be interesting. Anyway, the reconstruction ought to make the Times Square or Atlantic Ave. rebuilds look like tile caulking jobs in comparison, and would also go a long way towards explaining where that $4.5 billion in FEMA money for mass transit repairs/upgrades is going to go.
(Anyway, the reconstruction ought to make the Times Square or Atlantic Ave. rebuilds look like tile caulking jobs in comparison, and would also go a long way towards explaining where that $4.5 billion in FEMA money for mass transit repairs/upgrades is going to go.)
Bad idea. For that amount of money, they ought to be able to build a super-subway, complete with its own tunnel (rather than ours) for the LIRR to MetroNorth, with the Manhattan leg built as an express in assocation with the Second Avenue Subway. That would change Downtown.
Rebuilding the station complex would not. It is relatively new, and in good condition. East-West movement is easy on the pedestrianized streets. The only difficulty is getting past Broadway, Church, and West Streets, so perhaps a continous underground passageway through there makes sense. But $4.5 billion?
Read the article again. The entire FEMA budget for downtown transit improvements is $4.5 billion. This Fulton Street project is estimated to take $750 million of that, leaving plenty of money for other things.
David
You didn't read the article. It said the station itself was only $750 million of that.
The LIRR tunnel to Grand Central is already under construction, and you're not going to mix LIRR and subway traffic. FRA won't allow it. Besides, the 63rd Street Line is done and the shovels are turning for Second Avenue in two years.
So there's nothing in your proposal that isn't already being addressed. And the current subway situation there is like sphaghetti.
You like building trains in your mind's eye, Larry, but MTA is paying attention to rider needs with this, and you don't seem to get it.
I misspelled spaghetti. Sorry.
It's more like linguine. :o)
They need some kind of moving walkway in there. The Lex IRT station is also very close to the street level. It's a maze that's for sure.
wayne
Crash! Splat!!
Now it's garbage.:)
(They need some kind of moving walkway in there. The Lex IRT station is also very close to the street level. It's a maze that's for sure.)
I use the complex all the time, and don't have a problem. True, there isn't a pleasant walkthrough outside fare control, and I like the whole Underground Montreal thing, but much of the station was just re-habbed.
If you use the complex only to get between the A/C and the 4/5, it's fine.
If you use it to get between the A/C and the J/M/Z, it's mildly confusing but not too bad.
But if you use it to get between the 2/3 and the 4/5 or between the 2/3 and the NB J/M/Z, it's just awful. If I'm using an unlimited, I prefer to go upstairs and fight the sidewalk crowds.
(Nobody who knows better uses it to get between the 2/3 and the A/C or between the 4/5 and the J/M/Z, since there are better transfer points one stop away in either case.)
You'll be surprised. More people used the Fulton transfer from 2/3 to the A/C than the Park Pl transfer.
I make that transfer at Fulton once in a while for a change and I always regret it. It's much easier at Park Place. Why do more people make that transfer at Fulton? For that matter, how do you know? They may be descending to the IND platform en route to the NB J/M/Z or to the 4/5.
How do I know? That was pretty mean(j/k). Because they ask me if they can get A/C at Fulton. The first thing that come out of my mouth is yes.
Ah, but those people obviously don't fall into the category of those who know better. I stand by my claim that (most of) those who know better transfer between the 2/3 and A/C at Park Place.
I transferred yesterday from a SB J (from Essex) to a NB 2 (to 72nd, for the local). It's a pain (although not as painful as from the NB J), but where else was I supposed to transfer? I could have taken the F to 14th, but that's an even worse transfer and I don't like the F. So much for the A/C - 4/5 transfer being the only useful one at Fulton.
Depending on how much easier 72nd/Broadway is for you to 72nd/CPW, how about F to 34th then B to 72nd or F to 34th then B or D to 59th then 1 to 72nd? (Subway Navigator suggests walking a block at 14th, but that's dumb computers for you!)
I got off at 72nd to transfer to the local to go to 86th. CPW wouldn't have helped -- the B/C at 86th is ten minutes too far east.
Your route would have worked as well, but I don't like the IND, especially the F. The J/M/Z and 2/3 run more frequently than the F and B/D, and there isn't much worse than waiting a long time in a depressing IND station.
the shovels are turning for Second Avenue in two years
And I'm going to be elected Miss Nude America in 2004.
You are right about E-W movement at Broadway and Church Street. Years ago I worked at #1 World Trade Center and took the M train daily to/from Queens. The two blocks from Nassau Street to Church Street were indeed a short distance along say Fulton or Cortlandt Streets, but a veritable obstacle course crossing Broadway and Church Streets prior to entering the WTC complex. What I would have given for a completely underground walk from the WTC to the M station at Fulton and Nassau. When I moved and began using the #2/3 or A/C/E to from Penn Station, I was thrilled with never needing to go outdoors in bad weather.
A complex connecting the entire Fulton Street complex (23 45 JMZ ACE) to PATH and the Cortlandt St NR (and presumably the ACE 23 at Chambers/Park Pl) would be great.
I never thought the planned WFC-to-B'way Nassau passageway or the linking of the PATH, IRT 1/9, BMT N/R, IND A/C/E and IRT 2/3 stations was going to take up the entire $4.5 billion. I was figuring on it costing about a quarter of the total amount at best, and judging by the story here, that's about what it will wind up costing (figuring the WTC line connections at around $600 million), which would leave about $3.3 billion left over for other projects.
Certainly the MTA can do a lot with that, especailly if it's not dealing in rebuilding existing station complexes on the fly while keeping all the lines running (if not all the station platforms open), which will probably account for about 40 percent of the cost of the B'way-Nassau project.
The funniest part is that hey just spent a fortune rehabing nassau/fulton complex
That's not necessarily wasted. The rehab work on the platforms, pillars and tracks and signals are not wasted. The signage along the platforms is not necessarily wasted. It sounds like most of the new work would be above this.
"East-West movement is easy on the pedestrianized streets."
Which street do you recommend for east-west movement east of Broadway? I am constantly in fear of being jostled off the narrow sidewalk onto the street just as a big heavy truck is coming by passing within an inch of the aforesaid sidewalk.
If they made John St a pedestrian mall (and enforced it; unlike Nassau St where I have been nearly run over by illegal vehicles), I might agree with you.
Isn't Fulton Street pedestrian from Broadway east for a good chunk of the day?
Yes I believe so. I know Nassau Street definitely is.
"Isn't Fulton Street pedestrian from Broadway east for a good chunk of the day?"
Good question. Never when I've been there, but if I'm there it's usually after 6 PM.
Fulton St is a pedestrian mall from Broadway to ... I think it's Gold St, only during weekday lunch hours (11am-2pm, or something like that).
Nassau St is a pedestrian mall for much more of the day on weekdays.
"Fulton St is a pedestrian mall from Broadway to ... I think it's Gold St, only during weekday lunch hours (11am-2pm, or something like that)."
And my original point was that it was very unpleasant to walk crosstown east of Broadway because of the narrow sidewalks and the traffic threatening you just inches away. Your information confirms that there is no easy route.
Wow! That's incredible.
Totally opposed to condemning those buildings. There are many businesses there, including Wendy's, banks, and others. Lower Manhattan has lost enough business. If they build a new terminal, it should be on the WTC site, not destroying yet more buildings.
Just my $0.02.
The businesses will ultimatey be reestablished above the station in an office tower.
Guess who's gonna pay for the re-location? Most fast food type resturuants in that complex have reasonable prices. With higher rent in the new building, prices will go up.
Yes, the complex needs to be improved, but destroying more real estate is not the answer to a better system.
We now have plenty of new space in the WTC site. They should concentrate first on building an office or mixed use tower on the WTC site, instead of destroying more buildings.
I don't think one interferes with the other. The rebuilding fund is $21 billion to be released over time. It will all get done.
Factor in all the resturants and stores going out of business elsewhere downtown and there is plenty of room to relocate these businesses.
In addition there are plenty of other resonably priced luch spots downtown
Rosarios is my favorite. For less than $5 you get a great meal
<$5.00? Address?
"If they build a new terminal, it should be on the WTC site, not destroying yet more buildings."
... after years of railing against the NIMBY's, Qtd7 joins their lesser known sister organization NIMW -- "Not In My Wendy's".
The only problem with building the terminal on the WTC site is that it’s 2-5 blocks away from the platforms.
Fulton/Broadway-Nassau (West to East) has the 4/5 under Broadway, the J/M/Z under Nassau St and the 2/3 under William Street, with the A/C connecting them.
I, for one, look forward to a sensible underground passageway layout. At the moment, getting from the 4/5 to the 2/3 is a walk down and up stairs and ramps, with some of the journey being on the A/C platforms. And, for the physically challenged, it’s impossible.
I wish the architects and planners the best of luck. It’s going to be a difficult fit!
John
Fulton/Broadway-Nassau (West to East) has the 4/5 under Broadway, the J/M/Z under Nassau St and the 2/3 under William Street, with the A/C connecting them.
I, for one, look forward to a sensible underground passageway layout. At the moment, getting from the 4/5 to the 2/3 is a walk down and up stairs and ramps, with some of the journey being on the A/C platforms. And, for the physically challenged, it’s impossible.
It's probably a longer transfer than the one at 14th Street between the 1/2/3/9 and F.
"At the moment, getting from the 4/5 to the 2/3 is a walk down and up stairs and ramps, with some of the journey being on the A/C platforms."
Last time I saw any details, there were no plans to place a pedestrian tunnel under the JMZ and connect the Brooklyn bound JMZ lines and 2/3 into the complex. I hope they have reconsidered and that this is part of the project now. The A platform is really too crowded to be used as a through route (which is what you have to do now), and will be more so if they make everything better east of Nassau St but don't put another underpass under the JMZ.
If you look at it this way.
THe buildings schedualed for demolition are not the pretiest in the world. They range from accceptable to down right run down
A new terminal and possible tower will
1) give the area a major astetic upgrade
2) Give a place where the LMDC can relocate some of the 11 million sf owed to silverstein thus allowing for a bigger memorial/musueme at the actual WTC site
Give a place where the LMDC can relocate some of the 11 million sf owed to silverstein thus allowing for a bigger memorial/musueme at the actual WTC site
Instead of giving Silverstein land in a new Broadway office building, they can have a HIGHER MANHATTAN DEVELOPMENT at the WTC site and have plenty of room left for a memorial/museum.
Al-QaedaThe LMDC only wants to Lower Manhattan. We must raise Manhattan again.
I'll admit those subway entrances off Nassau and Fulton are also downright creepy looking.
Somethin straight outta the "bad old days".
Those ramps are a ton of fun. Especially in summer when it's hot. :-0
If they're going to condemn all of the buildings on the site, they won't need to have an underground passage linking all of those platforms. With a surface station building, all you need are stairs/escalators/elevators leading to each of the platforms from an indoor, surface concourse.
"If they're going to condemn all of the buildings on the site, they won't need to have an underground passage linking all of those platforms. With a surface station building, all you need are stairs/escalators/elevators leading to each of the platforms from an indoor, surface concourse."
How do you get across Nassau St. within fare control? You can go 3 levels down, one level above ground, eliminate the street, or not bother to do that part of the project. I assumed 3 levels down or not at all, but I guess there are other options.
Hmm... Good point.
(Hmm... Good point.)
Very good point. I was in the station the other day. The only problem with it, as some have pointed out, is that to get from the 2/3 on Williams to the 4/5 on Broadway, you have to go down to the A plaform.
But who really needs to do that. If you are coming to or from Brooklym, you can change at Nevins. If you are coming from the north on one line, it is faster to stay on it and walk an extra two blocks than to walk two blocks to transfer to the other line. The two lines are never more than two blocks away from each other between Broadway-Nasasu and Brooklyn Borough Hall.
I can seen a reason for a grade-separated pedestrain way across West Street, Church and Broadway. These are heavy traffic streets. East of Broadway, many streets are pedestrianized during the day, including Nassau Street, and other have so little traffic you can walk right down the middle of the street. It's one of the great things about Downtown vs. Midtown. So build your connection to get people into the Broadway-Nasau-Fulton station from the west, and up to the street. But I can think of 100 things I'd rather do than rebuild that station.
You've asked this twice and I've answered this twice. All the wonderful transfers at Nevins don't help anyone who's simply trying to stay in Manhattan. (Not from a southbound train to a southbound train -- from a southbound train to a northbound train.) Fulton is the only Manhattan transfer point between the two IRT trunk lines. It's also the only transfer point (in any borough) between the 2/3 and the J/M/Z, whose northbound platform is equally difficult to reach from the 2/3.
Yes going from the 2/3 to 4/5 is a pain. They need to make more passageways. Perhaps the MTA should condemn some of the buildings in that section for new entrances, but I don't see why an above ground terminal is neccasary for improved subway transfers. I think there is a real need to connect the whole Fulton st complex with PATH and whatever comes to the WTC site. That way there will be a direct connection without having cross busy Broadway.
(Yes going from the 2/3 to 4/5 is a pain.)
Who does this? If you are coming from Brooklyn you change at Nevins. If you are already Downtown its faster to walk a block or two rather than wait for an additional train. You'd be walking a block or two anyway. The key changes are from the A/C to the other lines, to go to the toe of Lower Manhattan or uptown on the east side. The biggest problem there is everyone wants the Lex, the transfer is in front of the train, and everyone is trying to get on the first car.
Your Brooklyn-centrism is showing. The IRT-IRT transfer is very heavily used, especially during GO's that shuffle the IRT lines around, when passengers are often expressly directed to use that transfer. A lot of people use the subway to travel within Manhattan.
If it were KFC, then the reconstruction would be OK.
:0)
iT's not just Wendy's. A place called Pret a Porter just opened up in that area. Trust me, the businesses will fight it.
I don't even go to that Wendy's that much, so it has nothing to do with me. I just say better things can be built with that money. Battery Park city for instance should be easily acessible to the new transit hub.
Well, part of the plan is for the walkway from the WFC, which would presumably come up just to the north of the apartments at BPC, so that would fulfill that part of the proposal.
Assuming they're not going to raise/lower any of the existing lines as part of this rebuild, that would mean the walkway will come in to the new building two levels underground, to get under the IRT tracks on Broadway. That would leave both the ground level floor of the new building and the level one flight below, between the IRT uptown platform on Broadway and the BMT downtown platform on Nassau Street, for commercial business developments, which will provide a lot more space than the current arrangement does.
Good...all better for the Lowe Manhattan reconstruction project!!!
http://www.sonic.net/~mly/Caltrain-Electrification/
This report details the type of rolling stock that is under consideration for Caltrain's sevice between San Francisco and San Jose and points south. There are plenty of material to consider the pros/cons of EMU and locomotive hauled trains to include all the types of locomotives in the North East.
There is plenty of material to fuel the debate between AEM-7 and all other electric locomotives (to include the NdeM unused ones).
And all this was started when I wanted to find out the HEP in KW (Doublehead AEM7)
http://www.sonic.net/~mly/Caltrain-Electrification/
Interesting website. They have some factual errors. They claim you can't have third rail power and RR crossings (clearly false) and you can't run trains at high speed with third rail (false again, and unlikely that Caltrain will operate at 125 mph).
Actually the plan is to have the Caltrain ROW kointly used by the state HSR 'bullet trains' when, and if they happen ASA (after second avenue). Thus 125 is possible. As to grade crossings, we all know third rail and grade crossings exist, BUT no way will anyone get away with doing this in a new project given the litigation and NIMBY slugs. Besides the general fantasy for higher speed services is completely isolated ROW. I remember grade crossings on the PRR between Balto and DC--they were removed in the early years of Metroliner service.
Interesting points.
One thing this coalition doesn't like is BART's construction of massive parking lots to encourage commuters in less densely built up areas to come in and use the train. Of course, you need parking to encourage commuter rail use.
BART parking accounts for 35k+ of "cold starts" for very short trips each day times two (lot spaces times two directions). This is a disgusting addition to the pollution problem. Most BART stations are well served by local buses (including BART operated routes previous to local county operations east of the hills). In the East Bay west of the hills, its all dense enough to support bus service to the stations IF THE CAR ADDICTED would get a clue.
I agree with you there. How does the SF experience compare to Washington Metrorail, which also has a lot of Park N Ride, Kiss N ride etc.?
>>> In the East Bay west of the hills, its all dense enough to support bus service to the stations IF THE CAR ADDICTED would get a clue <<<
I do not have 1st hand knowledge of the area, so please elaborate on the density. I thought it was an area of detached single family homes rather than high rise apartments. If the former, it is hard to see how it could be dense enough to support bus service. OTOH, it looks like a natural place for the second vehicle to be an electric auto.
Tom
Bayside and Glen Oaks do not have many high rises (though there are a few). They support bus service.
>>> Bayside and Glen Oaks do not have many high rises (though there are a few). They support bus service. <<<
In the context of this thread we are not talking about any bus service, but bus service sufficient to get the commuters driving to the station out of their cars. As a practical matter, the cost of the bus service must be less than the gasoline and parking cost, with no more than a one block walk to the bus stop, and a bus ride and wait at the station or bus stop, no longer than five minutes more than the drive. That's a pretty tough requirement in any low density housing. To get people out of their cars you need strong negative incentives like no station parking, or extremely expensive station parking (which may lead to more kiss ‘n ride).
Tom
Point taken.
OR a cultural mndset change We managed to educate ourselves to repress DUI, one could hope.
the strip of land on the East shore of SF bay has had trolley, later bus local transit for over a century. Although a victim of National City Lines takeover after WWII, the public agency AC Transit (1960 takeover of dying Key System/NCL) is alive if not well.
As to demographics/land use, Oakland and Berkeley are both "cities" with CBD's residential rent control ordinances (apartments!), etc. The southern Alameda County area--notably Fremont, has grown in bus usage in the last decade such that the population is clamoring for increased service. Most buses operated in this entire region either radiate from or pass by BART stations.
The parking problem is more acute at the outlying Contra Costa County stations.
Orinda, the first station east of the hills tunel is a case in point. Net usage is roughly double the parking lot capacity. Many people can be observed being picked up/dropped off by car. They are a mix of suburbanites going to work, and urban residents "coming out to the 'burbs" --domestics, gardeners, tradespersons. There are two bus routes(one rush only) serving the station. The ridership which is low on the all day (last run 6:30P) is under driving age local white, workers described above and a smattering of suits at rush hour.
glad 2 be back home !! man the humidity is very high
( however not as hot as so. cal was last week ) !!
well tomorrow i start re-shooting the #7 line am express !!\
cant wait 2 see my first redbird !! wooooooooopppeeee
Yes, the NYC area can still be very humid in September - it is still summer, after all. Southern California is never as humid (I've been there numerous times), but can certainly be hotter. This weekend was generally very humid, and the rain did little to cut the humidity levels.
When you take the #7 line try to get off at Queensboro Plaza and do some shoots on the upper level platform looking towards the bridge and Manhattan - great view! Try to get a #7 arriving simultaneously with an N or W.
... man the humidity is very high ...
Not nearly as humid as the environment the Redbirds are enjoying!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
it was like being in atlanta ! nice though at night it cooled off !!
nice clear weather today !! good 4 some nice digital transit shotz
... humidity ... ?
It's called rain, you know that wet stuff that falls from the sky. I know you don't see too much of it in Calif. Tuesday is starting out to be clear. Here's hoping you get a CLEAN railfan window < G >
While you're in town, check out the Stillwell Terminal ghost town before you leave. Before some major demolition takes place, this is your chance of taping virtually abandoned Culver and Brighton platforms. Very eerie !
As always, if you need some backup, post here and I'm sure you'll find some Subtalkers with a day off who'll tag along.
Bill "Newkirk"
thankz i may need you guys !!
i was stopped almost from taking photos of the #7 train tonight !!
had 2 go to the tower at main street( when they met me it cooled off)
i will go to jay st tomorrow 4 a permit then go back 2 shooting !!
i think i do need some of you good folks here !! ....lol
/>> now posting from the quality hotel in hempstead ny !!
just wanted to ask if any one gets uptight when you take photos of
subway & lirr & metro north trains these days ??
hope i will be ignored like i was back in 2000 !!!
in chicago they almost ""whent into orbit""
when i took a photo in a station there !! man on man !!
some folks got uptight when i took some greyhound photo shots too..
geeeeeeeeeeezzz
A photographer caught a couple of shady-looking characters documenting passenger train movements into and out of 30th Street station in Philly, but slyly doing it three blocks away at the South Street bridge.
>>> A photographer caught a couple of shady-looking characters documenting passenger train movements into and out of 30th Street station in Philly <<<
Gee, I hope someone called the cops. Everyone knows a thick bushy beard is the mark of a terrorist. :-)
Tom
Just wait until we get our hands on Santa Claus and break up his sleeper cell. :)
>>> Just wait until we get our hands on Santa Claus and break up his sleeper cell. <<<
Santa need not worry, white beards, like white hats on cowboys in western movies, are O.K. :-)
Tom
Santa Claus wears
a red suit He's a
Communist. He has
long hair and a
beard Must be a
pacifist. And what's
in the pipe that he's
smoking? Santa
Claus comes in your
house at night. He
must be a dope
fiend to get you up
tight. Why do police
guys beat on peace
guys?
-- -- Arlo Guthrie,
"The Pause of Mr.
Claus"
>>Santa need not worry, white beards, like white hats on cowboys in western movies, are O.K. :-<<
Iatollah Khomeini had a white beard.
Bill "Newkirk"
Only if you hog the whole railfan window < G > Good hunting.
No uptightness at all if you take the pics at Branford :-) Coming up to Autumn in New York on the 28th (or 29th)? I'll be there the 28th along with Lou from Brooklyn, Thurston, JohnS (Sparky), and some others; some of the gang (but not me) will be there the 29th as well.
Directions: I-95 to exit 51 in Connecticut, follow the signs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SubTalk makes the NY Times! That's right, part of the SubTalk crew that rode the first train to South Ferry have their photo in today's NY Times. You can look on page B3, or look here http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bmw9/ to see a light scan. I will scan it better later.
---Brian
www.brianweinberg.com/trains
Very nice!
Awesome!!
I'm famous!
(I'm the one wearing the white t-shirt, holding the camera and bag.)
finally
Yep, just like I thought-- you're the guy
I stepped in front of to board the 2150 hours
VCP 1 train--which then proceeded to take in
crewmembers and contractors alike at Chambers
for the "test drive" around the loop.
Arguably, it wasn't a revenue train, but
the fact that we got to ride around the
loop with some of the folks who had a hand
in building that tunnel made it ultrasweet.
Regards to KMA, Clayton, Larry and all others aboard.
There were contractors and MTA people on the first revenue train as well. They also opened the cab door so we all had a railfan window. And don't forget the NY Times photographer and reporter on hand as well to capture the moment. I have some videos and photos that I will post when I get back to school Tuesday eveing.
---Brian
Glad you enjoyed it, but the fact remains that I was on the first revenue train to South Ferry in over a year while you weren't on the first anything. Sorry to rub it in. And my train was glowing orange from the contractors' vests.
If you get "points" for remaining aboard a
train going around a (non-passenger) area
(i.e. City Hall Loop, or Bowling Green Curve)
then I consider my 2150 trip a similar feat..
Rub it in all you wish, in my eyes I still
remember you as the fellow who got "left behind"..
~~even after the 2150 T/O indicated to you he'd be
going "around" the loop.
As Clayton best said, all that matters is we managed
to be on-- A --train operating to South Ferry..
Over & Outs. (Eesh!)
As I said, it sounds like you enjoyed it. Good. Assign the points however you wish.
Yep, just like I thought-- you're the guy
I stepped in front of to board the 2150 hours
VCP 1 train--which then proceeded to take in
crewmembers and contractors alike at Chambers
for the "test drive" around the loop.
Arguably, it wasn't a revenue train, but
the fact that we got to ride around the
loop with some of the folks who had a hand
in building that tunnel made it ultrasweet.
Regards to KMA, Clayton, Larry and all others aboard.
DAM!!
Sorry for the double-post.....
Feel like I just fabricated an 'ANDEE'
(a/k/a SUBWAYSURF's tendency to
accidentally post responses twice
over at Harry Beck's)..
>>> I'm the one wearing the white t-shirt, holding the camera and bag. <<<
You mean the one holding up the whole train by standing in the doorway??? :-)
Tom
The train sat in the station for at least five minutes. It also stopped a few times in the tunnel.
The third train to SF sat in the station for over ten minutes -- enough time for a group of us to go upstairs, check out the new stationhouse for a while, go back downstairs, and listen to someone complain about the wait for a few more minutes.
which one are you in the pic?
I took a look at the photo and it is another sign that the area around Ground Zero is coming back to life. BTW I was at Ground Zero yesterday.
#3 West End Jeff
Congrats to you Brian !
Fifty Car Inspectors were inducted by NYCTA for the September 17th, 2001 class at PS 248 'Subway School.' I was one of them and Give Grace everyday for the opportunity. CI Peter remains OnTheJuice.
Congrats, guy! If you and the Transit Authority are able to put up with one another for a year, then you're in there. :)
I'm already in permanentsky Tovarich. I would like to see the rest of the crew made permanent too. The guys who were lower scorers are the hungriest...they want the work, they do work hard each and every day and they too deserve permanance. They also SPEAK ENGLISH IN THE HOLE fluently and can fill out inspection reports without assistance.
What else can TA ask for...working for free? I try to pass hints on to management on what they got with this crew...they sought older guys in exam # 0051 search and for the mostpart got the best that they will ever obtain. TA could continue the 'New Train Technology Specialist' program but all they will ever get is 'A barrel of Plattsburgh monkey turds.' 'Those who can work do and those who cannot, teach.' Oops...spilled the beans.
... and those who can't teach run for office. It takes a village to break a train. :)
Congratulations on a job well done...
Peter,
Ever since you've been posting here it's the same thing over and over:
PRIDE AND ENTHUSIASM
Keep it up guy, there should be more like you.
Congrats on the anniversary.
Regards,
Marc
Congrats!! Keep up the good work! I'm coming up on my 2nd Anniversary as a C/R and maybe a Tower Operator very soon.
Congrats!!! Keep up the good work. Keep my R142s running.........
I rode the restored IRT to South Ferry today. I was pleasantly surprised by the rehab of Rector Street, perhaps the only remaining local stop south of 72nd that hadn't yet gotten the treatment.
Great job all around...wish they could accelerate the cleanup and construction on other lines like they did with this one.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Best part of the Rector rehab was no trains running so the project could be done faster. Other station rehabs seem to take forever.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's not always so, especially at bay platform stations like Rector. It's when they have to re-do trackside walls (i.e. 42nd& 8Av) that cause delays and G.O's.
I do hope they left the original tablets and friezes at Rector Street.
They were a nice color, French mauve and burgundy, similar to Beverly Road on the Nostrand Avenue line.
wayne
Well, here's one of your photos on this site from before the closure....You are right, it is attractive.
Hopefully they've improved the lighting in station, as they've done with most (but not all-- see Whitehall St) recent station rehabs. I've always admired the mosaics there but they were difficult to make out clearly because of grime and poor platform lighting.
You are right, you can tell in the pjoto above that the lighting is terrible. The glare is really bad off the wall.
The Rector lighting is considerably improved...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Something to check out next month...
Wayne-MrSlantR40 wrote:
I do hope they left the original tablets and friezes at Rector Street.
They did.
It just so happens that I snapped a shot of one of Rector's tablets earlier today, just minutes before your post.
Uptown platform, closer to the north side than the south. I don't remember whether or not this tablet was in this condition last year, but it certainly sticks out now that the station's been refurbished.
Mark
Wow, that's kind of spooky looking! I guess they didn't have time to finish every last detail of the restoration. (I assume they are still working on that....)
Maybe that tablet was like that before the station rehab. There are some station tablets with mosaic tiles missing and that's what seems to be the problem at Rector. Repairing that tablet will be a time consuming event. A lost art I say.
Bill "Newkirk"
At many stations they have repaired of even reproduced the mosaic name tablets, Or started totally from scratch (at stations like Broad and Fulton). They have actually done a great job reprodicing them at some stations. Sometimes it's hard to even tell the repros from the originals in stations where both exist!
I saw that one.
It looks WRECKEDor.
I haven't been able to check out the reopening yet and Rector (and won't for a few weeks) - anyone got any pictures posted somewhere to quench my thirst till I get over there?
I will this evening! Hang on till then. Oh yeah, here's the chain next to the new platform extender at South Ferry, along with me and my friends on the first train: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bmw9/
I doubt that platform extender is new.
Someone posted that that was one of the new things at South Ferry.
Great shot! It's great to see a train at South Ferry again!
Was the rehab part of a prior funding, or did they have some $$$$ after they finished reconstructing the tunnel ...?
I don't reacll reading anything about a Rector rehab as part of the reconstruct.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't know where the money came from, but I did read that they decided to redo the station while it was easy to do it - when it was closed to passengers anyway.
I went through Rector the first time, yesterday and I must say that Rector is real spiffy. You can tell that work is not done, especially if the "Rector Connector" comes into play....
This weeks TUNNEL VISION
Peace,
ANDEE
Cute story. Yeah, riders will be back to their whiny selves before long.
Enjoy it while you can.
:0)
Story about MISS TURNSTILES/MISS SUBWAYS
Peace,
ANDEE
Also you may like to check this link
http://www.thetube.com/content/lives/lippyqueen/
for a 'TUBE' side of this story!
Maybe MTA/NYCT can have a modern spin on Miss Subways. In celebration of the upcoming 100th anniversay of the BMT, I propose we have an annual Miss MetroCard contest. She could be an ambASSador to encourage usage of the card by those who do not like it. Whenever she make a public appearance, whe will wear her tight fitting, yellow MetroCard T shirt.
I suggest Britney Spears be the first Miss MetroCard. Her fifteen minutes of fame are almost up anyway :o)
The T-shirt can have a cut out at the navel to show off the piercing.
Hudson Bergen Light Rail has been using a Christina Aguilera lookalike in its ads for two years. She has a three piece pinstripe suit, conductor's hat, pocket watch with gold chain--and high heels!!
Maybe she spikes people who don't have tickets.
>>In celebration of the upcoming 100th anniversay of the BMT, I propose we have an annual Miss MetroCard contest<<
I think you mean the 100th anniversary of the IRT. The BMT centennial should be about 2023.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right. My error.
>>In celebration of the upcoming 100th anniversay of the BMT, I propose we have an annual Miss MetroCard contest<<
I think you mean the 100th anniversary of the IRT. The BMT centennial should be about 2023.
Bill "Newkirk"
With our luck, it'll be a 5' 1", 260 lb. woman wearing spandex.
What if she's flat-chested?
:0)
What will her costume be? I think she'll need at least three MetroCards. ;-)
Does anyone know what happened to the Neighborhood Maps that used to be on the MTA web site? They were PDFs that duplicated the big maps you can find in stations.
John
I posted a link to them a few days ago. The link is also on the "transfer station" section of this site.
Too bad they couldn't post maps from Bronx, Brooklyn & Queens though. They also have a Staten Island map....
www.forgotten-ny.com
So now that 1/2/3/9 service has been restored back to normal, alot of people continue their commute as they were over a year ago, it seems that the T/O's and passengers alike are both relieved, and happy to do their usual route, and take everything in stride. In Brooklyn we shift to where a rehab that will make the Coney Island Terminal the grand terminal it was once, with an 1800's type glass half dome, and steel, with the technology of 2000 in it. We shift up to manhattan where the Northern Part of the Manhattan Bridge work continues despite the Finacial Bite of 9/11. Construction completion date still set for early 2004, as most of us fear a debacle that occured on the South Side, which took almost 15 years to reopen. Who else knows what major projects will come around that will disrupt our service, for one day today, no matter whats going on in the rest of the city, with the Opening of the Lower Manhattan Stretch of the 1/9 lines, the system is operating at 100%.
Tucked away in the back of Section A in yesterday's Rocky Mountain News was a photo of a 1 train at South Ferry with R-62A 2195 visible. The caption said that South Ferry had been heavily damaged during the attack last year. As we all know, in the words of Al Borland, "I don't think so, Tim".
Oops!
The fact that a picture of the #1 line even made it to the Rocky Mountain News is a feat in itself.
Quite true. Not too many NYC subway photos ever make it to the News to begin with.
Steve,
I read Rocky Mountain News during my lunch break on my postal route, and I chuckled when I saw that and said to myself "Oh for pete's sake, South Ferry wasn't damaged at all"! Oh well... at least Steve and I knows but most of Coloradoans doesn't! :-)
Mike the Mailman
Michael Calcagno
Anyone else hear these? There seem to be three versions, one each focusing on the LIRR, Metro-North, and the TA.
The major focus is "announcing" the orders for new commuter cars, subway cars, and "cleaner" buses. Besides the bald political implications in this elections season (although the Pataki sound-alike announcer only comes on at the end), the real eyebrow-raising part comes at the end of the TA ad. It features a couple talking:
WOMAN: "Is there anything else?"
MAN: "What about the Second Avenue Subway?"
WOMAN: "I've heard things ..."
ANNOUNCER: "MTA. Going Your Way."
Isn't that just too cute? Oy.
That sounds good, actually. If the MTA is referring to the Second Avenue Subway in their own ads, perhaps something will come out of it. Of course, it could be just for election purposes; but let's hope not.
BTW, I noticed your handle. I'm a fan of da bombers myself! -Nick
Not sure if this was discussed before, but I heard a commercial for the MTA on 1010 WINS this morning. The premise was basically a "railfan husband" and a wife that thought he was crazy...he was talking about how they bought 1700 new subway cars and 1100 busses.
Then they mentioned how the MTA is almost ready to restore full subway service to the Manhattan bridge, and begin other capital projects, like the Second Avenue Subway. Kinda surprised to hear it mentioned in a commercial.
>>>Kinda surprised to hear it mentioned in a commercial.
<<<
Remember it's an election year. Notice how the voice over sounds like Paturkey?
Peace,
ANDEE
"the MTA is almost ready to restore full subway service to the Manhattan bridge"
Wouldn't it be nice if that was true (8-) ? But I never believe commercials (especially political ones -- I hate watching even my *own* party's ones).
The book "The Power Broker" is in its 34th printing! Today's NYT had an article on its author, Robert Caro, in an article about him spending 25 years researching Lyndon Johnson. It also mentions a little bit about how "The Power Broker" even got published to begin with (it almost didn't).
Caro Has One to Go on Johnson but No Rush
--Mark
I've read The Power Broker (no exaggeration) at least 15 times. I consider it one of the most important books of the 20th century. Caro was very brave writing it while Moses was still living, and I'm sure he ran into a lot of opposition.
Caro had the opportunity to interview Moses. Though his work was more critical than some people like, it was seminal in that it was really the first book about Moses that wasn't a "great man" puff piece.
I thought Caro's writing was quite balanced, although his conclusions were negative in sum. At the same time that he outlined Moses' sins (which were no secret--many railfans and unrban planners knew about the most significant before Caro came along) Caro also gave me an appreciation for Moses as a man and for the good he did, which was not inconsiderable.
I thought the most important thing he revealed about Moses was that the man was arrogant and power-hungry, but unlike too many powerful people in public life, he was not venal.
I know Caro is becoming better known for his LBJ work, on which I withhold judgment until I've has a chance to read more, but my impression is that he's treating LBJ to rather more rehabilitation than the man deserves--or maybe I'm just interpreting the recent trend of Johnson revisionism.
Did Moses know the nature of Caro's project? That it wasn't going to be a puff piece? I can't believe that Moses would have co-operated had he known what the book would eventually become.
Did Moses know the nature of Caro's project? That it wasn't going to be a puff piece? I can't believe that Moses would have co-operated had he known what the book would eventually become.
I don't know but I doubt Moses was happy with the result. Still, Moses was a man of enormous ego (in both the good and bad sense) and one thing he had never had was a full blown biography, and in his lifetime no less.
One thing that especially struck me in Caro's work was a description of an interview with Moses in his office near Captree (east end of Jones Beach island). I've been there to buy a pass for my Bronco, and it is truly a breathtaking location, with sweeping views of the bay and the Captree Bridge. When Caro spoke with Moses there, Moses described his plans, which most enviornmentalists would consider a horror, for a highway the length of Fire Island. Caro described how Moses glowed while talking about it--no way could he understand how anyone could possibly be against it!
So Caro's book is multi-dimensional. It gave me a real appreciation for an egotistical mind that tried to do good, and never understood that he did anything but.
Robert Moses was a hot-head to begin with. Who would want to read about New York's worst public official. I saw documentaries of Moses on TLC and Discovery and it made me nauseous with what he had done. Destroyed an entire Bronx neighborhood to build the Cross Bronx Expwy, Totaled other communities throughout the 5 boroughs to build housing projects, and allowed the deterioration of subways and commuter rail lines throughout the Metro Area. At least one of his eyesores was demolished in the 80's, the elevated Henry Hudson Parkway from the World Trade Center to 57 Street if thats where the current Henry Hudson begins.
Robert Moses was a hot-head to begin with. Who would want to read about New York's worst public official. I saw documentaries of Moses on TLC and Discovery and it made me nauseous with what he had done. Destroyed an entire Bronx neighborhood to build the Cross Bronx Expwy, Totaled other communities throughout the 5 boroughs to build housing projects, and allowed the deterioration of subways and commuter rail lines throughout the Metro Area. At least one of his eyesores was demolished in the 80's, the elevated Henry Hudson Parkway from the World Trade Center to 57 Street if thats where the current Henry Hudson begins.
At the risk of rehashing an old argument, it should be realized that Moses' ideas were pretty much in synch with contemporary thinking. Build highways everywhere and let transit wither? Thats what most people wanted in the immediate postwar years. Transit was too tied in with life in crowded city tenements, while highways opened up the New Frontier of the suburbs, where the living was easy. I know, this is a naive view from today's perspective, but it was the common view back in Moses' day. Moses was not so much an innovator as a facilitator of common desires.
Who would want to read about New York's worst public official. I saw documentaries of Moses on TLC and Discovery and it made me nauseous with what he had done.
The book is actually a fascinating and interesting read, even with the strong feelings you have, especially if you're interested in NYC history.
--Mark
I understood from the book itself that Moses knew he was being interviewed for it and, at some point, stopped talking when he caught the drift.
From Caro's book, I always got the improession that Moses became embittered by his 1934 loss to Lehman for governor, and began amassing power behind the scenes to make up for what the voters wouldn't give him. That divided Moses into the very positive figure that was able to play the New Deal funding better than anyone else and get New York many public works projects in the heart of the Depression, and the post-34 public authority figure who new what was best for New York and would roll over anyone who thought otherwise.
Right now I'm early on into Book 3 of Caro's LBJ bio and it's fairly balanced -- he puffs up Johnson and others (like Richard Russell in the third chapter) for a while, then adds some info knocking them down.
Book 1 was more favorable to LBJ than Book 2, and Book 3 I'm guessing will be about like Book 1, since it's headed towards LBJ getting the first Civil Rights Bill through the Senate in the 1950s despite uniform Southern opposition. Anyway, it's certainly more nuanced than something Doris Kearns Goodwin would write.
read the 1200-page book at least 15 times?! We gotta get you a hobby, pal ;-)
<< I've read The Power Broker (no exaggeration) at least 15 times. I consider it one of the most important books of the 20th century. >>
It is one of the Top 100 books of the 20th Century, as ranked by the NY Times. I consider it one of the two best non-fiction books I have ever read, the other being "The Making of the Atomic Bomb," by Richard Rhodes.
I'm new to this site (what a site!!!) and the city, so this might qualify as a dumb question. The lower east side neighborhood map shows the B, Q and F lines going across the Manhattan Bridge. Are B and Q actually going to stop at Union Square forever? Is the Grand station shuttle a permanent fixture?
Presently, (Q), < Q >, and (W) trains are the only ones going over the bridge. B and D trains terminate at Herald Square. The F train always goes through a tunnel. The Mahattan bridge is suppose to be finished sometime in 2004, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Welcome to the board!
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks, Andee. I probably would have tried to find Macy's on Union Square. Plus who would have thought you guys would have figured out how to do local and express with () and <>?
One more question -- is the Ninth Avenue el protected somehow, or is there any danger a property owner could take part of it?
Ninth Avenue el? Are you referring to the "High Line" abandoned freight route on the lower West Side?
The Ninth Avenue El has not existed for quite some time. You must be thinking of the old freight line on the West side that is commonly known as The High Line. There are a few groups trying to save it.
Peace,
ANDEE
High Line freight it is. Not only did I not know the El ran in that narrowish avenue, I didn't know there was so much Polo Grounds Line history left. Thanks for the link. This beats the empty Cincinnati subway tunnel that I just moved away from all hollow, if you'll pardon the pun.
Last Ive heard, the short tunnel segment of the old Polo Grounds shuttle in the Bronx has been recently sealed...both tubes, both ends. Can anyone verify?
If I'm not mistaken, I think the section under the Deegan Expwy is still accesible but don't count on it. It might be sealed and we don't know a thing about it.
Yes, it's been sealed. Charlie's Chop Shop is no more :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi Mike,
SubwaySurf gave you the rundown on what's now running where.
My guess, based on the past, is that if the Manhattan Bridge ever reopens fully, the B-West End and D-Brighton will run on the north side, and the N-Sea Beach and Q-Brighton on the south side. Maybe something will happen with the V to make it more interesting.
None of this appears "cast in stone." The Broadway Line (what is now being used) is a better mainline for many purposes than the 6th. If West End (W - B) riders want to keep their Broadway service, I don't know what the TA would do.
It isn't practical to terminate the B or D in Manhattan once the Manny-B is open, so they have to go someplace in Brooklyn. You could run three Broadway Express services (Q, N, W) but then what Brooklyn services do you run up 6th Avenue?
>>>You could run three Broadway Express services (Q, N, W) but then what Brooklyn services do you run up 6th Avenue? <<<
How about just running the Q, as it once was?
Peace,
ANDEE
Aren't the F/V IND and the others BMT? Do they even connect on Houston or are they just under each other? They might not be rearrangeable.
Aren't the F/V IND and the others BMT? Do they even connect on Houston or are they just under each other? They might not be rearrangeable.
Well, sort of. The basic point is that the express tracks with the B & D run to DeKalb via the MannyB and the local tracks with the F and V head to Jay Street.
So to run the service differently, you'd have to cross over at W4 or 34th and I'm sure the TA doesn't want to do that.
Hey Mike. I recommend you get the book "Under the Sidewalks of New York" and "Subway" by Stan whats-his-name. I can't remember the last name, and the book is nowhere near me. Both books will tell you the story about the greatest phenomenon to hit the subway that erased the separate identities of the BMT and IND:
The Chrystie Street Connection*
* The Grand Street Station and a seldom used connector between the Broadway-Lafayette F line station and the Essex Street J,M,Z station.
Thanks, brooklyn. I think I have Subway (I'm not at home right now) but I don't have Under the Sidewalks and I always enjoy hunting. Unless they tear up Fulton under the Strand Bookstore to make the new transit center. Delancy/Christie has always fascinated me, especially since the whole thing goes in a cocked hat WHEN (not if) the 2nd Ave line gets built.
That is in TA's plans. Grand/Chrystie station on the B/D (now served by the Grand St. Shuttle) happens to be a 4 track platform, but now it is 2 with the walls that can be taken down to expose the 2 tracks behind them. Well, the tracks aren't built yet, but the track beds are in place for them. The outer ends will be for Second Ave. service, while the inner tracks are still used for Manny Bridge service.
Wow what a find. I never knew Grand Street was two island platforms. The books never mentioned that, unless I missed something here. The mystery now is where do these track beds lead to. If they're only at Grand Street, that's one possibility. Maybe even, these tracks were meant to connect with the express tracks at 2 Ave on the F line but that wouldn't make any sense. You gave me a mystery to solve here, unless it's already solved. But thanks for this incredible find.
Wow what a find. I never knew Grand Street was two island platforms.
Do you know that the station at Lexington Ave on the 63rd Street line also has two hidden trackways? Both the upper and lower level are island platforms - not wall platforms. The walls on both levels actually go right down the center of the platforms. As much platform space that is on the in use side is also on the other side of the walls.
The "hidden" tracks are actually for the Broadway line trains to access the 2 Ave subway. If the 2 Ave subway is built, Lexington's walls will come down, and will be an across the platform transfer station (and island on each level-which is what the station actually is now) for transfering between 6th ave and Broadway from the 2 Ave line.
All these provisions were part of the "Grand Plan" that was promised to the City upon the formation of the MTA.
The plan included extensive commuter rail improvements, the Second Avenue Subway (with a stop at Grand Street), and the LIRR to Grand Central. Most of the commuter rail improvements were made, with the exception of the LIRR to Grand Central, now under construction. Most of the City improvments never happened, with the exception of the 63rd Street line and tunnel which later led to the V train.
This one I knew about. I use the Lex/63 station quite often. Q trains used to park there when they still served Queensbridge. I caught a sneak peak through a hole in the door.
This one I knew about. I use the Lex/63 station quite often. Q trains used to park there when they still served Queensbridge. I caught a sneak peak through a hole in the door.
I knew hints of that until I actually got off a Q train a few years ago before the 63rd St. connector was finally placed into Queens Blvd. When I looked in a door, I saw the unused tracks. Another way you can tell the track goes behind the portable wall is that if you look into the tunnels west of the station itself. You can see the crossover switches between Broadway, and 6th Ave. Or also riding on the head end of the train (if it has a feasible railfan window, or an R46 (possibly an R68 if Q trains are sent there on a GO) with no obstructions in the cab window.
This whole post is blah blah blah. All I know is that the Manhattan Bridge is in operation and the Sea Beach is not on it. Until that happens, the whole subject is irrelevant to me.
Grand Street is the only station of the Second Avenue Subway ever constructed and ever used.
While I believe that the Grand Street station was intended to be two island platforms, I don't believe that the tracks on the "other" side of the station walls were ever built.
The most responsible source for abandoned / unused / inactive stations and parts of stations is Joe Brennan's Abandoned Stations site. He makes no mention of anything at Grand in the main index, nor under the IND Second System.
If Joe Brennan doesn't list it (including the fabled 76th Street) it probably doesn't exist.
Actually I found it in the table of contents of subway.org. I'm surprised I missed trhis one.
As for behind the walls at Grand Street, I don't know what's there, but if there are trackways there, the intention was to connect them at the South End to the tunnel under Confucius Plaza and at the North End to the station shell at Houston/2nd (which is at right angles to the (F)(V) station).
Even if West Enders wanted to keep Broadway service, they'll have no real argument against resumption of the 6th Ave B service as long as the Sea Beach N runs across the bridge (as the W does now). Simple transfers at 62nd and 36th Sts. would facilitate them.
Maybe they could run the B down the Sea Beach instead of the West End. That would be something different. And a photo op.
Lol. Oh man, wait till Sea Beach Fred sees this! "The B*tch train on the holy Sea Beach!" :)
Hehe, I'll bet Fred will probably say.."What in the hell is that B'tch train doing on mah N territory?"
I had actually considered this myself. I'm sure any bridge line (Bway or 6th) would be more desirable than the current N thru the tunnel. It also solves the problem of where do you send the B on weekends. Running it to 145th St would be a waste of resources, and limiting it to a shuttle would not be fair to the more heavily used West End line. Running the B on the Sea Beach allows the B to be limited to a shuttle on weekends.
The "Manny B" reopens in 2004. NYCDOT is pretty much on schedule.
The Grand Shuttle will end at that point, and you will have B amnd D trains crossing the bridge again.
There is a lot of penalty and bonus money at stake, so the contractor will probably finish early unless the delay would not be subject to penalty. The replacement of Stillwell Terminal should be ready at around the same time (Spring 2004). I assume that the DeKalb rehab will be done by then as well.
We have the opportunity to redesign B-Division service to best serve the city. It has been discussed ad nauseum here but not in a particularly organized manner. Does anyone have any ideas of how we can coherently discuss this so that one or more of us can present a good plan to the TA? It makes a mess of the board here and we don't have all the information we need at our fingertips like ridership levels and track/switch/terminal capacities.
F on the Manhattan Bridge? Now, this is something that I've never heard b4. Which lower manhattan map was it on. Where is that map now? What was the date of that map.
Sorry --- B, D, Q are on the Manhattan Bridge, F is next to it in a tunnel (Lower East Side neighborhood map). Recently arrived from someplace lucky if we get one light rail line, I apologize for creating a stir.
Whew! Thats okay, everybody made mistake. :)
I was getting a little tired of taking the A downtown from Penn. Kudos to NYCT for running the C express downtown from Penn to Chambers to make up for the loss of full 2/3 downtown express service.
Still, its bittersweet, because I remember why the service was disrupted in the first place.
The C was running express due to switch replacement along the Eight Ave. corridor, not at all to make up for the loss of downtown #2 express service.
I'm sure this was only driven on Sundays by an old lady:
A fine used car
Any takers? :)
-Robert King
It looks as if the streetcar hasn't gotten any bids in several days. I suppose the transportation costs are the main stumbling block.
Somehow I think my local zoning board would have a problem if I tried to park that in my yard :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess nobody wanted it, or wanted to pay $1000 for it plus moving. That's understandable given the condition, few interior fittings remaining and every second window post on one side removed...
-Robert King
I've heard that the moving costs for an old subway or trolley car can be several thousand dollars.
That's correct. Back in 1982 I had plans (before the zoning folks squashed them) of moving two 50' refrigerator cars (trucks and all) less than two miles from a railroad crossing to the back yard of my home in North Carolina, for use as a storage building (each car would have had one door removed and they would have been parked touching each other, so with minimal effort they would have been one weathertight structure). The cost of the two cars, delivered to the crossing, would have been $1000, but to move them and set them on sections of track (not including the cost of the track) would have been over $2000. Still, that compared favorably with the cost of building a wooden building of similar size. Don't know what it costs nowadays, but I suspect some of the Branford guys who attend the board meetings could tell you exactly what we paid to move some equipment via truck recently.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Asbestos insulation anyone?
Possible but I don't think so... never really thought about it, since they were actually approved for residential use in Georgia (there's a big low-income housing area near one of the rail yards comprised entirely of houses constructed from three to six of these cars, which were mechanical reefers surplused by FGE - 60 Minutes did a feature on the development and mentioned the availability of the cars, cheap, that's how I found out about them). What was so ridiculous at the time was that my stinky, noisy chicken coop was OK but the rail cars didn't conform to building codes and "would detract from the neighborhood" - and at the time my nearest neighbor was a half mile away. Of course, three years later someone started squawking about the chicken coop too so I got rid of that (it was getting to be more work than it was worth anyway).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The story from today's Boston Globe.
If Amtrak cannot properly operate the commuter service, Gunn is right to not renew the contract upon termination. MBTA needs a new operator, or needs to do it in-house.
I am not implying that MBTA was offering a good or bad contract. Hard to tell.
We are only hearing Lydon's version of the story. MBTA's opinion of him is important, of course. But I would also be interested to hear Gunn's take (won't happe soon).
While driving in from DFW the other day on 814, there is some skeleton
of a transportation system around Las Colinas. I think the develop-
ment went belly up in the S&L crisis of the 80's, but it looks like
they tried to build some kind of rail system around the facility.
Anybody have any info???
It's been that way for years. I never heard of anyone trying to build it or rebuild it ever since 1990 so your guess is probably right.
Accroding to a map on this page there is a planned South Las Colinas station on the DART yellow line, scheduled to open in 2008. Does anyone know if the structure in question is going to be incorporated into the planned DART yellow line?
Mark
It may be the Las Colinas people mover, which opened in the mid 1980's. It closed for a while in the early mid 90's, but has reopened.
Jon Bell Transit (forgot web address, but type this on Google, and it will direct you to this sight) has a page on this transit system. It basically connects the different office buildings with restaurants.
I was at the Omni-Las Colinas two years ago and the people mover was moving -- albeit very slowly -- between the buildings in the complex. It seemed more like an amusement park ride than something you'd get on if you were in a hurry, though I suppose in really bad weather it's handy to have around.
Las Colinas itself is pretty close to the Trinity River basin just northwest of Texas Stadium, so I would imagine that any future expansion of DART from downtown (and boy, do they need it) would be aboveground because of the water table being so close to the surface there.
I was at BBC this morning to observe how the trains were turned. Locals arrived on A1 and platform conductors cleard the train. A3 had a relayed local in it waiting for an arriving express to clear the interlocking onto A4 to leave (headlights on, doors open). A2 had a local that was a put in doors closed but crew on board.
Crews were hanging out on the platform (more then they do at 57th St). The disptacher (this guy is the Q Express one that is a pain half the time yelling at people with and without using the radio) was running in and out of his shack at the end of A2/A4.
Expresses still wait between Sheepshead and Brighton Beach for the slot on A4 (we did and I saw one waiting when we left). Your best bet is to transfer to a local at Kings hwy or Sheepshead Bay to get to Brigton Beach faster.
Having the locals use A1/A3 with a switchman is working fine leaving A2 for put ins (the signs on the platform say A2 is for express service) they delay to express service though has to go.
They fixed it up this weekend. Last week, they didn't even have set platforms the services. Now they use the Coney Island bound platform exclusively for the locals, and the Manhattan bound is for express on weekdays and locals on the weekend. I think they need to seperate the express and local put ins beyond Brighton Beach and use a switchman for the Q Express as well. Its a pain to be on a Q Express expecting to be in first when you wait for a local and express to leave and have the local you let pass go in a few minutes ahead.
To avoid a switching nightmare, maybe < Q > trains should terminate at Kings Highway and (Q) trains continue to Brighton Beach. No sense in both running to Brighton Beach if bottlenecks like this keep occuring.
In either of our plans, you'll need a switchman. It's just the way they want to runs things. I don't believe there are crew quarters at Kings Highway. They rented out 2 apartments for additional crew quaters at Brighton Beach for this project.
I understand about crews quarters. Even the need for switchers. But it would allow better access into Brighton Beach. Maybe the restrooms at the Quentin Road exit can be converted into crew quarters.
I prefer they no go NYC Public School style with transit. I'm just saying that there's a way to do it without screwing Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach riders over.
From today's Law Journal: Minor's MetroCard Tampering Leads to State Forgery Charge
The youth charged with tampering with his MetroCard by bending it in order to give his friend free entry could face up to 18 months if convicted of the crime of forgery as opposed to a maximum fine of something like $150 and/or a relatively short sentence for fare evasion, which is a violation or a misdemeaner.
I spend all this time getting the link to work, and I mispell MetroCard in the subject!!! AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
This is one of those things that's hard to evaluate. On one level, I agree with the judge's reasoning, but then it seems as if the punishment is too severe for the crime. I'm really not sure what to make of it.
If it is well know that tampering with Metrocard is forgery (i.e. if a press/advertizing campaign had been run stating that it is forgery and the penalities are severe), then it's totally reasonable.
>>> This is one of those things that's hard to evaluate. <<<
It looks pretty clear to me, it certainly fits the definition of forgery. It is only a small amount of forgery, like raising a check from $10.00 to $11.50, but forgery none the less. What is it that makes it hard for you to evaluate this? Is it something you could see yourself or someone you know doing?
Perhaps a little publicity on this case and a stiff sentence will deter others from doing the same thing. Unfortunately the outcome will probably turn on who the defendant is. If he is a middle class white kid it will be bargained down to a misdemeanor with a fine and probation. If he's from the ghetto he can expect to do some time.
Tom
I couldn't agree more. Let's heat up "Old Sparky" in Florida, ship those miscreants to Jebland, and fry 'em in the chair. That'll teach their friends a lesson.
Seriously, someone hacking the MTA's computer and producing bogus MetroCards that generated "GO" in a turnstile would be guilty of forgery. A clever high school student that just bends a card is simply demonstrating the flaws in the system.
>>> A clever high school student that just bends a card is simply demonstrating the flaws in the system. <<<
I agree with you if he does it as an intellectual exercise and reports the flaw to the TA, but if he does it to obtain free rides, he is just as guilty of forgery as someone who hacked the MTA's computer to make bogus cards, but is just not as effective.
If someone got a hold of some of your blank checks and wrote one to cash and copied your signature and presented it to your bank for payment, at what amount would you no longer consider it "demonstrating the flaws in the system" but a forgery?
Tom
Amen ... and if I had a nickel for every computer hacker we tracked down and turned over to law enforcement who insisted that they were engaging in an "intellectual exercise to demonstrate flaws in a particular system" I'd have a lot of nickels. :)
Criminal behavior is criminal behavior ... and particularly taking advantage of a KNOWN "exploit" after it's already been widely published and well known only demonstrates the criminal intent. "Clever" indeed. Sure hope the kid comes to understand that "testing security" does NOT get you that high paying job in countermeasures ... that too was an urban myth.
I'll quote the master intellect of reconciliation here, Rodney King, "Can we all just get along?". I think the whole point here was a sense of perspective in relating an offense to the seriousness of the crime. Just, for the record, if anyone unknown to me presented a check for one cent to be drawn on my Bank of America account, that would be excessive.
>>Perhaps a little publicity on this case and a stiff sentence will deter others from doing the same thing. Unfortunately the outcome will probably turn on who the defendant is. If he is a middle class white kid it will be bargained down to a misdemeanor with a fine and probation. If he's from the ghetto he can expect to do some time.
================================================
Unless Rev. Al gets involved.
But the catch is getting the police to the station in time to catch the perpetrator. They are not dumb- they'll wait till a train is approaching and then do their dastardly deed and disappear onto the train, which their accompice has forced to wait by holding the doors.
If we see what they are doing we can call for police but polcie too know they';ll be gone by the time the polcie arrive. We can tell them to stop bending the cards and we get unprintables out of their filthy mouths, they keep doing it and get in
Well, most of these kinds of criminals think it's OK to steal a little every day ... that's what gets them caught, because when you do a thing over and over again, especially with the same card, the TA is going to be able to track it & have a pritty good idea where & when you'll be ... bing-o you're caught.
Fine with me.
I think they should see how long he's been doing it. Maybe we can assume he used it during the whole school year and charge him for all the trips. That's 181-182 days a year.
If giving your friend a free subway ride is worth 18 months in prison, then what is the appropriate punishment for corporate CEOs that steal millions from their customers, employees, and shareholders?
Also, the technology behind the MetroCard must be deficient if it can be defied by simply bending the card.
Good!!
Does anyone know of any open house at Metro North's Croton Facility?
I thought I had seen something about it being in October.
OCTOBER 19 2002 11-4. IF ANYTHING CHANGES I WILL LET YOU KNOW. MY FOREMAN HELPS PUT IT TOGETHER
Fantastic!
Thanks
anytime. i thought u work for Metro North? i do, ima overnight Custodian. you guys should see Grand Central at 3am when its closed
This is a very enjoyable event !
Lots of give aways, all kinds of M-N engines & commuter coaches on display, shop tours & a ride North out of the yard.
Last year we smuggled a cake onboard to celebrate Sparky's birthday as we traveled along the Hudson Rv.
I'll be there with my new wife and family. I will probably be wearing my #1 Uptown and Bronx cap. Hopefully I can get a photo this time of the displaced LIRR F's.
Neil & others .... It is a very nice family event, especially if the kids have some interest in rt stuff or B I G engines, etc.
I just thought of my little cousin who loves to ride trains, and she is 9 years old, and she goes to all of the CH Open Houses with my in-laws.
They have a lot of stuff, last year the power guys had kids dress up in their saftey vest and that long rubber golve, and got a picture of it.
The crew that rerails stuff was knocking over a box car and then rerailing it. You could climb on a Genisis and get your picture of yourself at the controls. Kids could move an MU controller and watch and traction motor spin up. You also had tours of the shop, saw how a bugman moved his bug and such.
Great time for kids of all ages.
Lou, I was there, and I was on the 231 the newest New Haven Genesis. My little cousin Allison had those pictures done of her too.
Maybe things are still shaking out since the September 8 switch, but this past Sunday I clearly saw a Slant fully marked as a Q on the uptown local track at 34th. Why it was running local is unclear, because later we saw a Q as 68 running uptown through 49th on the express track as usual.
I seriously doubt it was a W for two reasons. One, I rode the W at length both Saturday the 14th and Sunday the 15th and did not see any Slants- just 32s, 68s and 68As. Second, there was a 32 marked as a W uptown at the next stop, 28th Street.
Since there don't seem to be any Slants going to Astoria weekends under the new service pattern, does this mean they're going to the Q? It wouldn't really be any great shakes, since it would run local on the Brighton- although we'd at least have the Bridge- barring GOs.
The R32 signs for the W only say 'Astoria/Broadway', with no reference to West End. This bolsters claims made that the W was originally intended to be a rush-hour filler between Astoria and Whitehall only- hence the diamond.
I didn't ride the new weekend Brooklyn-only N shuttle either day, so I don't know what kind of equipment it's using. But yesterday, a regular weekday, everything was as it was prior to September 8: mostly 68As and a few 68s on the W; heavy 32s and Slants with a few 68s on the N.
My next priority: getting a weekend R32 on the West End Line. The last time that happened without a GO was in early '89 when the B was returned to 6th Avenue. There was a mix of Slants and pre-GO (beige interiors, original seats, dark blue inside doors) 32s and 42s.
And seeing if there are any more weekend Slants on the Q.
The bridge was closed in both directions this past weekend, so Q's used the tunnel. They may have also run local between Canal and 34th. North of 34th they probably went express for access to the express tracks at 57th.
The GO that ran was as follows:
All northbound Q trains will run local between DeKalb Ave and 57 St/7 Ave; all southbound Q trains will run local between 57 St/7 Ave and DeKalb Ave. RTO Supervisor-in Charge (City HAll Dispatcher) may run select Q trains on the express tracks between Canal St and 57/7 due to congestion or service delays.
In general, weekend Q service consists of R68/68A trains. However, another GO running since last Saturday (and continuing 24/7 until this coming Sunday) has temporarily severed connections with CIY from Brighton. All Q trains are needed for service are laid up north or south of Brighton Beach. If you spotted a slant on Sunday, it was probably pulled for service due to a B/O 68.
And, while we're on the subject of strange Q trains... Did anyone see the Q trains that were at Continental on Saturday afternoon?
Maybe that is a sign that you might eventually see Q's on a regular basis go there come 2004. R68's only though with maybe at the most the same TPH as now.
Actually, it was due to an emergency reroute related to a 12-9 at Prince St.
Was this emergency reroute on Saturday afternoon? That would explain the horrendous overcrowding on the uptown Q/R/W platform at Times Square around 2:00 PM. People were ready to faint or fight. One man was yelling to no in particular that he'd been waiting a G-d-mn half an hour and no trains at all came. The crowding was made that much worse by a GO keeping the 7 out of Manhattan that weekend.
Once I heard a piped-in announcement that "there is an uptown train at Prince Street- please be patient", I immediately bailed. A few hours later, from the front window of the Queens-bound E, an R was clearly visible stopped in front of us on the express tracks at Roosevelt. It must've been rerouted from 57th/7th through 63rd Street to save time and avoid congestion at Lex/60th.
Question is, how CAN they reroute Manhattan-bound service with no bridge access to 6th Avenue, AND no Brighton or Sea Beach access out of Coney?
One possible routing would be up 4th Ave. through the Montague St. tunnel, take the Nassau St. cutoff and head up the Nassau line past Essex St., then reverse direction and take the unused Delancey-Houston connector. With R-46s, it might get a little dicey if they're not allowed on the Nassau line.
an R was clearly visible stopped in front of us on the express tracks at Roosevelt. It must've been rerouted from 57th/7th through 63rd Street to save time and avoid congestion at Lex/60th
No, because the B'way - 63 St connection has been out of service. It probably was crossed in front of you at Queens Plaza.
Question is, how CAN they reroute Manhattan-bound service with no bridge access to 6th Avenue, AND no Brighton or Sea Beach access out of Coney?
They can't and therein was the problem. Some Manhattan bound Q,W and R trains were turned back in Brooklyn, while trains north of the problem were turned back to Queens. To keep trains moving, some turned Qs were sent out to Queens. I was the second Q to get out of Brooklyn once service was restored
All of these[bottlenecks]could be solved with a few tie in to other routes.Dekalb/Rudgers,Cortlandt st/WTC[8th ave local connection to the lower Bway line].
I saw the slant on the W at the Time Sq on Sunday approximately 05:34PM. Strange enought, all side rollsigns display diamond W bullet
yes.."A Diamond W" and No circle W. More shocking enough, later that evening mah friend email me stating that he saw an R46 W. This is third report of R46 W sighting so far for this months since 9/8 and I'm marked the exact time and name of a station where R46 W sighted at mah calandar for the record.
No, the slants do have a circle W in its roll signs. Last Christmas, I left FAO Schwartz to go to Brooklyn, and I was waiting for a downtown N at 5 Ave./60 St., and I found a slant on the Queens Platform marked for N service, and the slant on one of the cars had an upside down circle W in it. These roll signs were changed in all R40 slants right after the the R68/R68A had theirs. All roll signs have a circle and diamond W in them.
Well, believe it or not I saw Slant W Train with Diamond W on all side rollsign and circle W on ends.
They do run slants on the W on weekends. These last two weekends, I railfanned the weekend W, and sure enough there were slants running on the W. R32s also, using the diamond-W on the side roll signs. I rode R68As, slants and R32s on the W this past Saturday and Sunday the 8th.
Since I was forced to travel yesterday for a family emergency, I made a productive trip out of it.
Exterior of the 'Tin House' fare control area
Down the new staircase, at the north end of the existing platform
Up the new staircase
New platform edge with new (or moved) platform extensions. Probably will align with the 142/142A
Incoming train
The replaced/relocated extensions are a tight fit. This one boots up against the front of the fifth car
Location of the existing exit stair. It's blocked off above ground as well. It's likely due to the reconstruction of the ferry terminal. I would expect that until a permanent plan to rebuild the station is complete, once the ferry terminal above is done (and remember, it only took 10 years to start construction), there will be two exits, finally.
-Hank
Thanks for posting... hope the emergency was resolved without any major problems...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you call open-heart surgery complications minor...
-Hank
Ouch! Well, in any event, I hope that everything turns out well in the end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I see you wrote some grafitti on the green pillar there. :) Seriously though, in the same photo, the least they could have done sometime in the past year was paint the ceiling in that station!
Why? The current station is going to be demolished in favor of a full lenght platform terminal.
Length, whoops on the typo!
MAYBE. Either way, the existing platform will be there when the new ferry terminal is completed, and as I noted before, it took 10 years to turn a shovel on that project.
-Hank
Are you using a flash?
Yes. I have a press card, so I'm not bound. I didn't use the flash taking a picture of the train.
-Hank
I was wondering the same thing. Hmmm, you'd be good to have around. Can I take you along whenever I go for pleasure rides to take photos?
Nice shots. The placement of the new stairs and the tin house fare control area (the MTA's 21st Century answer to Parsons' IRT kisok entrances?) make it interersting to project where they plan to put the dual entrances to the new ferry terminal from the 1/9 and the N/R. If the stairway is going to be permanent, it looks like the terminals' subway far control entrances may end up being at street level (as has always been the case with the IRT) as opposed to one level below ground (as is the set-up for the BMT at Whitehall right now).
Hank, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed them.
Much Thanks & Respects to the man...
Reckon, if I was enroute to a "family medical complication"
scenario, I don't think I'd even HAVE the frame-of-mind
to even 'frame' a shot of anything subways...
My sincere hopes for Recovery, Hank!
Carlos/1sf9
Thanks for posting the pics! Those are really great shots!
-AcelaExpress2005
Any information is greatly appreciated.
1. Learn some grammar.
2. Maybe you could - gasp! - actually RIDE the line, MAKE some observations, and tell US what's going on.
I realize that Busfan is a twerp who won't disappear, but some people (myself included) don't currently live in NYC and are interested in whether or not the R46 W's are still running.
There are no R-46s assigned to W service. Occasionally, a train of R-46s might be used to cover a gap in W service. Upon completion of its work, the train goes back to a line to which it's normally assigned.
David
Follo, only one R46 ran on one day for only one trip. That's it.
To make demolition quicker, can NYCT gondolas be used to cart away rubble ? At least on the overhead crew quarters.
Bill "Newkirk"
For two reasons, no. First TA is paying for removal of aterial in the contract to rehab the stations. Why would you renovate your house with a subcontractor, then use your personal car or truck to dump material removed by the contractor? Second, TA doesn't own gondolas. There are a couple of CR hoppers in 36 St Yard, the only cars TA uses to remove debris in day to day operations are their flat cars. Since the whole structure is condemned, I wouldn't want to tie up the two standing West End tracks loading work trains anyway.
Amen to that.
Hello.
I am wondering if anyone can tell me what the exterior color/or colors of the early (pre-WWI) IRT subway cars were? I have been struggling to find this information and would truly appreciate your help. I am working on a story set during this time period and want to make sure the description of the subway car is accurate.
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Mark Speltz
Historical Researcher
Depending on how detailed you need your information to be, you might want to arrange a visit to the Shore Line Trolley Museum when someone will be there who can provide you access to car 3662 and others. 3662 is an original Hi-V subway car from the IRT, and we have several other early IRT cars (both elevated and subway) in the collection.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember the Lo-V were repainted for the diamond birthday. Maybe there are photos posted in the Lo-V section.
The recent thread about the loudness of windmill farms reminded me of something.
I remember a news report some time back concerning residents complaining about the loudness of the HBLR LRVs, which run on streets (as opposed to dedicated ROW) for some portions in Jersey City. I imagine they were objecting to wheel-screeching as the cars rounded corners. Never mind that those same residents were being provided a clean, safe mode of transport, far superior in many ways to the bus alternative.
My Brooklyn home is on a bus route which usually runs those so-called clean-air buses, which have to be the loudest transportation vehicles I have ever heard! Even with the windows closed and the air conditioner running, I have to turn up the volume on my TV when one of those nasty behemoths goes by, or worse, is stopped at the corner for a red light, engines groaning, windows rattling, after ka-chow-boom-ing over, if I'm not lucky, the well-placed depression in 8th Avenue directly in front of my building.
Trolleys and LRVs, on the other hand, are almost completely silent when running on a straightaway, and wheel noise can be suppressed with proper track lubrication. (In fact, trackless trolleys would eliminate both of these noise issues!)
Sitting on my stoop last night, having recently attended streetcar fantrips in both Philadelphia and Toronto (see photos here), I got to thinking how much better trolleys would be on the bus route running in front of my building, the M69. Both Prospect Park West and 8th Avenue are wide enough to accomodate a one-way set of trolley tracks and still allow passing room for private vehicles (both thoroughfares are one-way, so the trolleys would match the direction of traffic). The only difficulty would be where the M69 route crosses the holy mess of a byway that is Flatbush Avenue, and the poritons of the route aside from Park Slope, where the steets aren't one-way.
(In fact, there were indeed trolleys on PPW at one time, as well as on 9th Street, also near my home. Ninth also has plenty of room for streetcars.)
There is no arguing, aside from the usual cost and NIMBYism issues, that streetcars would be a great alternative to buses, even "clean-air" ones, on the M69, and perhaps even the 9th Street M75!
So, this fantasy becomes more plausible, since the M75, which bisects the M69 route, is also nearby the forthcoming BRT Red Hook trolley route, making for quite logical growth of Brooklyn's new streetcar system in my direction. We could use the old armory on 8th & 16th streets for a carbarn, and all of those kids in Park Slope would be able to grow up with trolleys running through their neighborhoods and tracks to flatten pennies on!
Wouldn't it be grand! :O)
Every single Brooklyn bus route used to be a trolley route. They never should have been converted to bus, but they were. Lets convert them all back. And use re-furbed Brill semi-convertables. And paint them in the colors of the orig. BRT surface cars. And charge everyone a nickel. I grew up riding the last mainline PCCs in Boston. I ride them in Mattapan every chance I get. Being from Boston makes me a Red Sox fan. I could end all my pain and misery if I could root for the Dodgers. They're in L.A., and the trolleys they dodged aren't coming back.
Every single Brooklyn bus route used to be a trolley route.
Untrue. Nearly all of the lower numbered routes like the B1 and B2 never were trolleys.
You can look at this list to see for yourself.
Notice all of the entries in which the "Trolley Number" column is empty?
Ok, point taken. Lets convert back MOST of the bus lines to trolley lines, as only most of them were trolley lines.
Hey, I wouldn't mind converting bus lines to trolley lines if they never were trolley lines in the first place.
having recently attended streetcar fantrips in both Philadelphia and Toronto
Photos of the PCC fantrip that Pete (and I) attended in Philly last April 7 are on my Webshots "last roll of slides" page, and a few digitals from the same trip are on "around Philly 2".
I got to thinking how much better trolleys would be on the bus route running in front of my building, the M69.
You live in Brooklyn, not Manhattan.
Actually the Essex St MUPpies were complaining about LRVs sounding their horns at intersections. Our new Corporation Counsel made a ruling that since trains don't have to signal at intersections, and LRVs are paired, that they're trains, not trolleys. The latter, by ancient law, did.
Hmm...interesting point...I always thought they were complaining about the whining and buzzing of the LRV cars' electrical units on top of the cars (hidden only by the white shells of the roofline) as the cars pass by the homes, especially the ones that are like 10 feet from the LRVs themselves when they pass by. Those things can be pretty loud...I heard one at night and at one point, it WAS a bit annoying...
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
It's a nice thought. Look at it this way, ten years ago the idea would be utter fantasy. Today? Well, while breaths should not be held, it's not beyond the realm of possibility.
Aw, s**t. Big ol' doy here. I know you will all forgive the fact that I referred to the Brooklyn 69 & 75 bus routes as the M69 & 75. Of course I meant B.
Played hooky today and did some researching in Sunnyside.
One thing that I haven't seen here is a discussion of the passenger exits on Queens Blvd. on the 33rd, 40th and 46th Street stations. Some of the staircases empty out on a narrow sidewalk just inches from the roaring traffic on the pedal to the metal Boulevard of Death.
It seems to me to have been a fundamental flaw in its construction that passengers couldn't have had exits on the much safer Queens Blvd. sidewalks on the building side.
I realize that when Queens Blvd. and the viaduct were built in the mid-1910s, auto traffic consisted of flivvers and horses still consisted a big part of transit, but the decision to create a wide boulevard indicates that the builders did anticipate heavier traffic in the decades to come. Couldn't they have thought to give passengers safer egress?
At the 46th Street station, large yellow signs blaze "Pedestrian Killed Here" or somesuch. Yet, the DOT has seemingly never thought to change the stoplight timers so that people do not have to wait a full 90-120 seconds for the light to change (didn't have a stopwatch, forgive me if the timing is wrong.) I wouldn't, but others might decide to brave the traffic if they see a redbird approaching and they're in a hurry.
This preference for the auto by the DOT is not restricted to the Boulevard of Death. On Northern Blvd in Auburndale, where I live, if you want to cross Northern Boulevard, you have to wait nearly 120 seconds for the light to go green. And when it does, you best bust a move, because you have about 15 seconds, counting the 'flashing red' caution signal.
If the DOT would liberalize its stoplight timers and cut pedestrians more slack...perhaps they wouldn't have to erect yellow "pedestrian killed here" signs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I really doubt that.
Besides, I think all of the accidents have occured on the concrete islands or on the street. No where near the subway entrances.
Yes, those stairways were very poorly designed. My station is a busy one (40th st), and two of the 4 stairways have been closed for reconstruction. A ton of traffic has been funneled town two narrow stairways just to spill out on the little, busy strip of 40th. Very poorly designed exits.
33rd Street, if im not mistaken, has two different entrance/exits...one at 33rd and 34th. Thats a ton of stairways for a station thats the least busy on the viaduct.
At the 46th Street station, large yellow signs blaze "Pedestrian Killed Here" or somesuch
Hey, that's like south Dakota - they put signs up wherever a fatal car accident happens:
Of course, there's no billboards or anything else I could find on this, so we saw them all over the place until we finally stopped to read wht the heck the were...
And I do mean, all over. which is weird, cause most drivers out there are decent....
You must remember something. The Queens Boulevard Viaduct was built long before the age of the auto. I am sure it was not a problem at the time, nor was Queens Boulevard as wide as it is now.
>>>You must remember something. The Queens Boulevard Viaduct was built long before the age of the auto. I am sure it was not a problem at the time, nor was Queens Boulevard as wide
as it is now. <<<<
Reread the post... I said...
I realize that when Queens Blvd. and the viaduct were built in the mid-1910s, auto traffic consisted of flivvers and horses still consisted a big part of transit, but the decision to create a
wide boulevard indicates that the builders did anticipate heavier traffic in the decades to come. Couldn't they have thought to give passengers safer egress?
www.forgotten-ny.com
When Bob Moses built his parkways, he envisioned drivers motoring along the throughfares at a leisurly 40 mph, not at the batouttahell speed some drivers do today (he also thought they would mainly be used by drivers coming out from the city to visit his parks on weekends, so that's another mark against him having Kreskin-like mental abilities to see the future). I would assume the Queens Blvd. planners had the same thing in mind when they laid out the western part of the boulevard 10-15 years before the first Moses parkways were built, in which case, the entrances where they are now wouldn't have been considered a major problem.
Ideally, if the stations are ever made ADA compliant, they'll build overpasses crossing the lanes from the main sidewalks and entering directly to the turnstile area just below the platforms, but I think the people of Sunnyside are going to have to raise a major stink to get that work on the high-priority list.
Aren't you supposed to be able to prove you can hit at least 5 pedestrians on your driving test before they hand you a license?
:0)
It seems to me to have been a fundamental flaw in its construction that passengers couldn't have had exits on the much safer Queens Blvd. sidewalks on the building side.
I realize that when Queens Blvd. and the viaduct were built in the mid-1910s, auto traffic consisted of flivvers and horses still consisted a big part of transit, but the decision to create a wide boulevard indicates that the builders did anticipate heavier traffic in the decades to come. Couldn't they have thought to give passengers safer egress?
(Somewhat) heavier traffic might have been anticipated, but not today's high speeds.
Well it was an important day for me. I rode the first 2 express in a long time. I started at Times Square where I just made an R142 downtown. The ride wasn't all that fast, the train really seemed to accelerate real slow, good work BOMBardier. Also had some trouble getting doors 2 close.
Got off at Chambers and a 1 pulled in shortly after. It was quiet ride. Going through what was left of Cortlandt was creepy and eerie, going by so close to "ground zero". I think everyone in my car had a moment of silence. Rector street looked very nice. I stayed on after S.Ferry, and got a better view looking out the east side. In one spot for a brief moment you can see Ground Zero.
I got off at Chambers and walked south. They really opened things up around the WTC site. Sidewalks were packed with tourists. I walked on the south side of the "pit" and there it was. A clear view of it. I've seen it a million times on TV, but seeing it in person made it really real, knowing that every piece of the WTC with the exception of that cross shaped beam, is gone. I can clearly see on the east side of the "bathtub" a tunnel entrance, which must've been for the old H&M terminal.
On the west side I can see where the entrance to the PATH tubes are, right under the WFC.
And where the PATH station once was. Looks like they are building something near it in the NE corner.
There were alot of tourists around taking photos, something I still can't bring myself to do.
After that I walked over the new footbridge to WFC. I never been to WFC before. It is HUGE. It's open and spacious, and has great potential to replace alot of what was in the WTC mall. The Wintergarden is also very nice. I love the way the whole WFC complex is laid out. I hope that this time they make WFC more accessible to the subways.
Going back I took the N out of Cortlandt, it was weird using that station again. Looks totally different. Former mall entrances are all sealed up.
On the N I saw mostly R40S and R32. I didn't see any R40M's or R42s. Also the F was all R46's from what i saw.
I just want to say how grateful I am, it cannot be said enough, to all the workers down there at the WTC site. The MTA has done an amazing job fixing it. And the WFC looks absolutely beautiful. It's amazing how fast it was all cleaned up. But emotionally, I still can't get used to not seeing the WTC there anymore.
I never been to WFC before. It is HUGE. It's open and spacious, and has great potential to replace alot of what was in the WTC mall.
The WFC is quite nice as an office complex, but replace the retail stores in the WTC? I'm not sure about that. The WTC mall was always more oriented towards daily commuters and average customers than the WFC mall, which is more high-end (and correspondingly less useful, at least for me). They didn't really compete in the same market. IIRC they put out a combined brochure called "Shop the World" containing information on both the WTC mall and the WFC stores.
And where the PATH station once was. Looks like they are building something near it in the NE corner.
That's the new PATH terminal. I have photos of it in my "1&9 Reopening" section of photos.
--Brian
And you experienced no crime??
...Red Line. I saw it this morning as my train was entering Grosvenor at the Shady Grove end of the train. I didn't take pictures, mainly because it was gone by the time I got onto the platform, but if I had been 3 minutes earlier in getting on the Metro, I would have ridden it, since it was on a short turn train. That would have meant I had ridden 1000, 2000, and 4000 all since September 3. Now, the only car not located is 3000 (I don't know if 5000 is in revenue service but if it is, it is on the Green Line).
In case anyone is wondering, I rode 1083. Nothing special there.
If I may ask... 1000 series are Rohrs, 2000-4999 are Bredas, and 5000+ are CAFs, yes?
I take it you keep track of riding the first cars in a series. I myself think I SAW number 4000 at Addison Road once, but it was sitting there, out of service. I've probably seen 1000 somewhere before, but as for 2000, 3000, no idea. Don't know what number CAF I rode back in arch, but that was the only time I traveled in a CAF car anyway.
1000-1299 are Rohrs
2000-2099, 3000-3289, and 4000-4099 are Bredas
5000-5191 are CAFS
6000-6063 (subject to change if options are taken) will be built by Alstom)
And yes, I am keeping track of which ones I have been on. I have been on 1000, 3000, and 4000.
Interesting fact about the 1000/1001 pair: 1001 arrived at the Brentwood shops before 1000, making it the first WMATA car to arrive.
An all too common occurence with married pairs. I don't know which M4 arrived at 69th Street yard first, but it would be one of the same two numbers ar the Rohrs. Interestingly enough, they range in number from 1000-1299 also.
A slightly less interesting fact about SEPTA's equipment: Broad Street Line car #666 is permanently situated between work car CW-1 (used for revenue) and work car CW-4 (used for maintenance equipment, such as the full trash bags). I wonder why that is, and I also wonder where CW-2 and 3 are.
It continues:
This morning, I got 1001 but I didn't have the digital. I did have a film camera so it will be developed whenever the roll is finished.
I am sort of seeing the logic in Dyre 5s being circles and WPR 5s being diamonds although I don't buy the circle 5 to Brooklyn. They only go there during rush hours. There is no such thing as a midday 5 to Brooklyn on the schedule. Why did they make the 5 to Brooklyn a circle? If it is because every 5 train goes to Brooklyn during rush hour, then I guess the M to Bay Parkway should be a circle, too.
P.S. The info boxes still have the diamond 5 in them.
That must be an error.
I don't think it is an error. They are all circles on the map itself (those boxes are still diamonds but they always forget to change those) and there was no reason to change anything for the 5, so it seems deliberate to me.
At least they are constant with the 4th Avenue line. Until this edition, IIRC, there were Ms, Ns, Rs, and Ws all over the place.
A diamond doesn't denote a rush hour service.
A diamond is used for one of two variants of a line that run at a same time. Short-turns don't count. Think of it this way: the diamond is a warning that you have to worry about the where the train goes or else you might have to backtrack.
The 6, 7, and Q have diamond expresses that run middays as well as rush hours. The diamond makes a distinction with another version of the route that runs at the same time, and the diamond bypasses some stops.
The diamond-5 only refers to trains to and from Nereid. Every rush hour 5 train runs express in the Bronx, so there's no need to use a diamond for that. Every rush hour 5 train goes to Brooklyn, so there's no need to use a diamond for that. Even if some rush hour 5's terminated at Bowling Green, that's a short turn -- the worst that can happen is that a few people who thought they were going straight to Brooklyn have to get off and wait for the next train. The Utica/New Lots 5's should be marked with diamonds, and for the most part they already are since they're the Nereid trains, but the map doesn't acknowledge those 5's to begin with.
Here's the problem: the map also uses diamonds to indicate some rush hour-only services. I think this inconsistent usage is what's confusing you. The map designers should find a new symbol and leave the diamonds alone.
The legend clearly says special express or rush hour service. I think the usuage of the diamond is perfectly fine, the only problem is that as more midday express trains have popped up on third tracks (or in both directions in the case of the Q), they kept the old symbol and now it needs to be redefined. I think using the diamond for both was fine since most of the time, it was rush hours only. I guess in this way, the G on Queens Boulevard should be a diamond, too.
The system I described is consistent and useful. The map needs to identify part-time services but the trains themselves don't. The diamond system as used on the trains should be retained and the map shouldn't confuse matters by using the same shape to mean something completely different.
Incidentally, in response to your earlier question, there is no diamond-M. Assuming signs are set properly, diamonds only show up on the 5, 6, 7, and Q. For full consistency, they should also be used on the A and E. (The Rockaway Park branch timetable does have a diamond-A on the cover.) That's it. Not on the 1, 4, 9, B, D, F, J, M, N, W, or Z.
You forgot the K:
Looks like a circle to me.
Which "Atlantic Av, Bklyn"? They were both options before 7/22/01; neither is an option now without changing ends. That is, unless someone secretly planted an R-42 rollsign box on an A Division car.
Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line.
-Stef
You seem to be answering in full seriousness. In that case, kindly inform me when a blue-bulleted K train, running post-GOH R-42's, ran between those two endpoints.
Not to sound on the offensive, but I am answering it in full seriousness. The answer to your question is that R-42s NEVER ran between those two endpoints in actual revenue service. Not to say it would be impossible, because you could run down 8th Avenue to West 4th, on 6th Avenue through the Chrystie St trackage, and over the Willy B. Then one can take the ENY flyover into Atlantic Av on the L.
The blue bulleted K only ran 168th St to WTC, and not beyond that.
Didn't you think someone was just fooling with the rollsigns?
-Stef
Don't worry it's in all fun, we change them back right after as long as no one starts to look at us funny. Because then we scram.
But I'm afraid it's not currently possible, since that flyover -- northbound at least -- does not currently exist. Or at least it didn't on Thursday, when I stood at the front of an R-42 and saw where it used to be and where it will be in the future.
Of course it was someone fooling with the rollsigns. I was playing along. I wasn't expecting a serious response!
There is a diamond M on my September 2002 map. There is also a diamond D and I imagine there is a diamond A, too.
Since the majority of services have different rush hour services than at other times of the day (the only lines that I can think of that don't are the 2, 3, C, F, G, L, N, Q, and R, all other lines have some sort of variation in rush hour service), it makes sense to illustrate rush hour only services on the map with the diamonds. Since the peak direction express service was originally rush hours only, the diamonds can theoretically stay. To make the 5 in Brooklyn a circle but change no other diamonds is really inconsistent and should be changed back ASAP.
You're making my point. Trains are sometimes signed with diamonds -- but only on the 5, 6, 7, and Q (and occasionally in error on other lines). The map designers are trying to use diamonds to also mean something completely different. No train is ever signed as a diamond-M or a diamond-D.
Yes, the map should indicate which services are special rush hour services -- but it should do that some other way. The diamond is used on the trains for an entirely different purpose.
As for why specifically the diamond-5 in Brooklyn was turned to a circle-5, it's probably because the diamond-5 is used on Nereid trains, most (all?) of which go to Utica or New Lots, not Flatbush. The map used to show a diamond-5 on the Nostrand branch even though the actual diamond-5 doesn't run on the Nostrand branch.
Yes they do, many diamond 5 trains go to Nostrand in the morning, and in the afternoon, the 4:10 and 5:52 Flatbush trains are headed for E 238 Street
Actually, the diamond IS meant to denote a rush hour only service, but over the years it's use in that manner has been lost, kinda like the old IND system of using double letters for locals.
Reread my post. The history is irrelevant. The diamond today, as used on train signs, has a consistent and useful meaning. The map's usage only confuses matters.
The IND double-letter system never made much sense, since there have always been lines that are part-local and part-express.
The "M" to Bay Parkway, Bensonhurst IS a circle on the roll curtains, since the R40Ms and R42s do not have a diamond "M" in brown, AFAIK.
In addition, even though the map shows Bay Parkway "M" service as a diamond, it serves the station well out of normal rush hour times.
Rush hours are generally 6:30AM-9:30AM and 3:30PM to 7:00PM. The "M" terminates at Bay Parkway until approx. 10:00PM weekdays.
I wasn't talking about on the roll signs, I was talking about the map.
A few #5 trains run in Brooklyn during early/late middays and early evenings. #5 trains are still coming from Brooklyn until after 10 am.
I updated my website with photos of the first revenue train to South Ferry and other stuff I took that night. Go here: http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains/index.html and click on "1&9 REOPENING" in the main menu on the left side or click on the top NEWS headline. Enjoy. If you have any questions about the photos, post them here or email me. I'll try to add comments to all the photos at some point.
--Brian
BTW, the guys on the train wearing the MTA and CONTRACTOR safety vests were using the flashes on their cameras so I did too. That really helped a lot! Otherwise none of my undeground photos would have come out. (I even got a certain SubTalker to use his flash after he practically vowed that he would never use it in the subway and that anyone who did would go to jail.)
--Brian
Did I vow? Oh, well, that's what Kol Nidre's for.
No, you "practically vowed," which I take to mean that you came very close to but did not actually take the vow.
Brian, flash is fine. AS LONG AS it's not in my face while the train is still moving.
Yeah, that's common sense, but most people here believe that according to the rules, using a flash is not allowed. I tend to believe that using the flash is ok, but I usually don't use it in order to not call attention to myself. I'm afraid that a police officer or other MTA person will become suspicious and maybe tell me to stop taking photos. Is this reasonable or am I paranoid?
---Brian
The rule against flash isn't a "railfan belief." It's quite real.
David
I don't want to bring up this topic because I'm sure it's been argued many times here, but if what you say is true, then why doesn't the MTA just come and say that built in flashes are illegal? Why do they use language in the rulebook that makes it seem pretty clear to me that they are talking about pieces of equipment seperate from the camera, such as a stand-alone light/flash unit or a tripod? The built in flash is "built-in" and is part of the camera and part of normal photography.
So a "built-in" flash won't blind a T/O?
It certainly will. But the only people who know the rules are railfans and railfans know not to blind T/O's so it is ok to allow built-in flashes..............I know...in a perfect world maybe....
I'm not a lawyer and I didn't design the wording of the rule. I'm just telling the folks here what it is. Disobey it at one's own peril.
David
That's the only reason I avoid using the flash (except in Alex's face).
[using the flash] Otherwise none of my undeground photos would have come out
What type of camera are you using? I took these pictures with a Nikon 885 Coolpix, all with NO flash.
-Larry
subway.com.ru
Toshiba PDR-M71. In low light, in automatic mode, the camera will use a slow shutter speed. Ok, if you are shooting still subjects, it won't matter too much, except that you have to hold the camera very still. But if you want to take a photo of a subway moving through a station, the photo will be blurry or very soft. Even in non-auto mode you still have to use a slow shutter speed so the same problems come up. I just can't seem to hold my camera still enough to take any decent underground photos. Your photos look great for being w/o a flash, but in a couple you can see what I mean about the photo being soft. Mine usually come out a lot worse. If you have any tips, I'm open to them!
--Brian
One thing you can try is to brace up against something. Bracing the camera against a column, or rail (handrail) can steady it. Sometimes I'll put my back right against a wall and hold very steady and slowly press the shutter. A tripod would help, but you can't use it in the subway :-(
Moving trains are a problem without flash, mostly just look like blurs and lights, but somtimes you can get good effects with that.
Ok. I'll try bracing myself from now on. Thanks.
It still doesn't always help.
Have you considered taking up painting instead?
I take that as a compliment.
The first person to identify those four locations wins -- well, nothing but a good deal of self-gratification. How's that?
The first person to identify those four locations wins -- well, nothing but a good deal of self-gratification. How's that?
In light of the commonplace definition of the term "self-gratification," that may not be a particularly wise idea.
"Self" as in you provide it yourself. What you provide is up to you; you needn't announce it to the rest of us.
Brooklyn Bridge, Brighton Beach, Astor Pl, and Baltimore.
No, no, yes, and yes (but be more specific).
What settings did you use for photo DSCN1404.jpeg? Shutter, ASA speed? Or did you have it on automatic mode?
I had the ASA set to 400 for that, and was braced up against the handrail. The train was heading straight towards the camera so the effect of motion blur was reduced. Shutter speed and aperature were set to auto, but they can be controled manually.
Those Brighton line photos are real nice. Thanks!
Few Reason I...
Like about the Current Sept 2002 Subway Map format.
Less Detailed Subway Service Guide.
Streets Names and Expressway can be seen clearly from a darken beig colored 5 boroughs.
RR lines are colored.
Trasfers Point boxes are highlighted.
Subway route are colored prefectly leaving no white marks.
The Fonts of a 5 Borough Names are bolded and larger.
Dislike about the Current Sept 2002 Subway Map format.
The Airport logos - the images and colors
What useful detail is in the old one that's not in the new one? It's going back to Pre-TheMap style.
THANK YOU!!!
I adore the more realistic color pastel and the fact they went back to the color table format for the Subway Service Guide. It's easier to navigate.
In the subway map geography is distorted, with Manhattan much larger than reality (esp. Midtown and Downtown) because there is more to show there. I'd like to see that concept expanded to the suburbs, with the whole region on one map.
In fact, while at City Planning I produced a "cartogram" of the region, with the sizes of counties (and portions of Manhattan) adjusted based on their level of employment in the 2000 census, but their approximate sizes and positions mantained. I was careful to align it in such a way that all highways and rail transit lines could be properly placed. I'd like to see a map like that.
You're right. Just like a few years ago, you can now easily tell what train route operate at what times and whether it's going express or local during those times in any borough. That's a major improvement.
And its much less detailed. Now, you don't have to read it like you're reading a summary and look at the timetable above the service guide at the same time.
I wish they'd put a PDF file back on the web site. Those were really easy to scale to fit one page. The dual-GIF format is difficult to print easily as far as I can tell.
The format's not the problem - if anything GIF files are easier to scale than PDFs, but making the map up of two files... eughhhh!!!!
I have a HUGE favor to ask.....
Could someone PLEEEEZE mail me an Sept. 2002 copy of The Map?
My name & address are:
Mark Greenwald
P.O. Box 375
Barton, Maryland
21521
THANK YOU VERY MUCH
Just call New York City Transit customer service at:
718-330-3322
and they will send you the map.
Is there a way for a person or order subway and bus maps from the MTA website?
I don't see any, you just have to call or write.
I guess someone could call. Long distance charges should make up for postage.
Yeah, I think thats a good idea. Would it be a lot easier if TA set up the order form on their website where we only provide them our add and email to obtain Maps via parcel. That saves will your long distance phone bill, and your time waiting for customers service agent to answer your call. I think I should start write a letter to MTA about this.
Tangentially relevant to this thread -- this board still has the September 8 2002 version of the map mounted. Dave P., are we going to get the September 15 version up soon?
Fytton.
The 9/8 version shows the post 9/11 1 2 3 9 Service. The 9/15 version shows the pre 9/11 1 2 3 9 Service with cortland st closed.
Well, Dave happens to be away at the moment, photographing all the trains of Europe (or as many as he can squeeze in during one trip), so that question might be better posed when he gets back.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I took the long route home, the 2/3 to Grand Army and walk through Prospect Park, rather than the N/R to the F. I was thinking about the fake trolley/bus they have running around on weekends, and how I'd prefer a real trolley or even a bus.
If history is the goal, how about an Omnibus? You could build a new stable in the open area off the unused Hill Drive (unless you know the park you've never been there), lay some tracks, and have horses pull an Omnibus around the park on weekends.
Did Brooklyn ever have Omnibuses? (On topic - they were on rails).
Horse drawn cars on rail before the cable car? I would say yes they did have Omnibuses.
Except an Omnibus isn't on rails - it's a road vehicle. Think of a large stagecoach, that's what an onmibus is.
I'll leave the subject of animal-powered transportation in Brooklyn to persons better versed than I, but a bus or omnibus, by definition, cannot operate on rails; it is free-wheeling. John Stephenson got his start in New York in 1831, as a builder of omnibuses, and later built horse cars, cable cars, and electric cars.
"a bus or omnibus, by definition, cannot operate on rails"
Maybe as the word is used in this country, but not by definition. Omnibus is just the Latin word "for all", i.e., transportation for all people, as opposed to a private carriage for individuals.
But the term was taken from Latin in modern times in the U.S. to mean, specifically, an urban common carrier not on rails, as opposed to a streetcar or tram, which is on rails.
There is some definition creep, where buses on flanged wheels (often dual mode--or "road-railers") are called "rail buses."
And there was an early TV show called "Omnibus," but it didn't go nowhere.
(But the term was taken from Latin in modern times in the U.S. to mean, specifically, an urban common carrier not on rails, as
opposed to a streetcar or tram, which is on rails. )
Excuse my mistake, if that's what it was. But I read EL Doctrow's "The Waterworks," set in the era of the horse powered rail trolley, and he referred to them as "Omnibuses." Perhaps those weren't on rails.
Urban stagecoaches were dubbed omnibuses and preceded street railways by only a few years. Apparently they kept the term omnibus or bus to distinguish them from the new rail streetcars.
Omnibuses were distinguished from their predecessors by several things:
As compared to stagecoaches, they operatd fixed urban routes on frequent schedules, did not require reservations, and could be hailed anywhere along their routes.
As opposed to hacks (horse-drawn taxis) they were shared, therefore "for-all."
I can't say definitively that noone ever referred to a streetcar as an omnibus, but the distinction was well made, especially by the time of Doctorow's book, which I think is the 1870's. The difference was even expressed in company names, as in "New York Railways" vs. "New York Omnibus Corporation."
Of course, Doctorow's work is historic fiction IIRC, so I suppose he's entitled to some liberties.
Urban stagecoaches were dubbed omnibuses and preceded street railways by only a few years. Apparently they kept the term omnibus or bus to distinguish them from the new rail streetcars.
Omnibuses were distinguished from their predecessors by several things:
As compared to stagecoaches, they operatd fixed urban routes on frequent schedules, did not require reservations, and could be hailed anywhere along their routes.
As opposed to hacks (horse-drawn taxis) they were shared, therefore "for-all."
I can't say definitively that noone ever referred to a streetcar as an omnibus, but the distinction was well made, especially by the time of Doctorow's book, which I think is the 1870's. The difference was even expressed in company names, as in "New York Railways" vs. "New York Omnibus Corporation."
Of course, Doctorow's work is historic fiction IIRC, so I suppose he's entitled to some liberties.
Of course, Doctorow's work is historic fiction IIRC, so I suppose he's entitled to some liberties.
As in his book World's Fair, set in the Bronx of the 1930's, where the narrator mentions subway headlights.
As in his book World's Fair, set in the Bronx of the 1930's, where the narrator mentions subway headlights.
That's kind of careless, don't you think?
As in his book World's Fair, set in the Bronx of the 1930's, where the narrator mentions subway headlights.
That's kind of careless, don't you think?
The book seemed to be semi-autobiographical, at least that was my impression. Doctorow might have been guilty of nothing worse than fuzzy memories.
In fact what is the plural of "omnibus" given that its already dative plural?
If the plural of "caboose" (just to keep this rail-related) is "cabeese", then the plural of "omnibus" would be "omnibi". Alternatively, it could be expressed mathematically: ((omnibus * n) where "n" is an integer greater than +1). Then, imagine this line in a film set in 1831 New York: "I was standing in the mud of lower Broadway across from Trinity Church when an (omnibus * n) approached, where "n" is an integer with a value of +2."
I think I just found the answer...
Motor Bus
What is it that roareth thus?
Can it be a Motor Bus?
Yes, the smell and hideous hum
Indicat Motorem Bum!
Implet in the Corn and High
Terror me Motoris Bi:
Bo Motori clamitabo
Ne Motore caedar a Bo -
Dative be or Ablative
So thou only let us live:
Whither shall thy victims flee?
Spare us, spare us, Motor Be!
Thus I sang; and still anigh
Came in hordes Motores Bi,
Et complebat omne forum
Copia Motorum Borum.
How shall wretched lives like us
Cincti Bis Motoribus?
Domine, defende nos
Contra hos Motores Bos!
A. D. GODLEY
"What is it that roareth thus?
Can it be a Motor Bus?
Yes, the smell and hideous hum
Indicat Motorem Bum!
Implet in the Corn and High
Terror me Motoris Bi:" (etc.)
This should be on BusTalk of course (8-) ! However, just for completeness, "The Corn and High" are the two major streets in the centre of Oxford (England) - Cornmarket Street and High Street. Ironically, until recently Cornmarket Street was pedestrianized except for buses, and the frequent bus service going through a crowded pedestrian street did cause a certain amount of "terror". Recently the buses have finally been diverted out of the Corn, but they still run down the High - and Oxford is a good busfan town, with high-frequency services from two competing operators.
I believe it gets lots of American tourists for some other reason too, but i can't quite remember what it is (8-) .......
Oxford's pedestrianisations have been very interesting. It's definitely improved the Corn and the Broad, but some of the traffic schemes are downright silly... like that barrier they've erected halfway along Worcester Street - traffic jams on both halves of Worcester Street and all along the Botley Road.
>>have horses pull an Omnibus around the park on weekends.<<
The folks at PETA will raise hell about abusing and enslaving an innocent horse pulling that vehicle. Welcome to 2002 !
Bill "Newkirk"
Hong Kong banned the rickshaw, but AFAIK, they're still legal in NY. You can get homeless people to pull them. They're always wandering around the city, so just have them pull a rickshaw.
I knew a Rick Shaw in college...:)
I believe most rickshaws have been replaced by pedicabs, which are the same idea except that the operator rides a bicycle, which is easier, faster and nicer.
In the Great Epizootic of 1872 so many horses died or were too ill to work (in New York alone, 18,000 plus, at its height) that some companies tried hiring bands of unemployed to haul cars.
The disease ran its course, but also led to reforms in stable management, including keeping horses in cleaner and less stressful conditions.
You see, kindness to animals can make good economic sense too.
Been watching a lil too much Seinfeld??
:0)
An omnibus does not run on rails. It is the intra-city equivalent
of a stage coach. A horsedrawn vehicle on rails is a horsecar.
Brooklyn did have an extensive horsecar system. Most of the horsecar
routes evolved into trolley routes.
(A horsedrawn vehicle on rails is a horsecar. Brooklyn did have an extensive horsecar system. Most of the horsecar routes evolved into trolley routes.)
Well there you have it. I propose replacing the fake trolley, which runs on weekends, with a horsecar. I guarantee more people will want to ride.
How many horses are going to pull the horsecar?
Are you going to hire teamsters to drive the vehicles? Are you going to have them be members of the Teamsters' Union?
I propose replacing the fake trolley, which runs on weekends, with a horsecar. I guarantee more people will want to ride.
Is there a level enough route for a horsecar? I wouldn't be surprised if they had to double-team horses for the grade on adjacent Flatbush Avenue back when.
As George and Jeff already told you, an omnibus does not run on rails. The term you're looking for is "horsecar" or "streetcar" although the latter term is no longer used because a trolley is also a streetcar. Like before electric guitars you didn't have "acoustic" guitars, just guitars.
Anyway, Brooklyn had stagecoach lines, but not early omnibuses in the sense of the Fifth Avenue Line. For motor powered buses, the BMT (ironically) was an early promoter, see this item from Transit Topics at Jim Poulos' bmt-lines.com.
If you're going to lay rails in Prospect Park, you could run an electric trolley. The infrastructure doesn't have to be like half a mainline railroad, the way they build light rail today. Think Fairmount Park.
I would think twice about an animal railway. There is a skill to driving draft animals and caring for them 7/24/365. They have to be fed, groomed, etc. full time, quite an expense for a seasonal operation.
Can you picture Mayor Bloomberg letting the horses or mules loose in the 'hood to forage in garbage cans the next time the City feels tight?
The city has plenty of Omnibus's. By definition an Omnibus has nothing to do with horses, any bus is an Omnibus.
Look: Staten Island Omnibus:
I took three movies with my digital camera. You can find them here. They are each about 5MB.
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bmw9/movies.html
--Brian
What compressor are you using? My Windows Media player barfed on it and said no decompressor exists.
The movies were made with my Toshiba PDR-M71 digital camera. I just copy them off the smartmedia and then upload them. I don't touch them further. My Windows media player plays them. It is "Windows Media Player for Windows XP" and is version 8.00.00.4477. Maybe this is why no one has commented on my movies - they can't play them! Please post if you figure out how to solve this problem. Thanks.
I don't have the codec either... most digital camera codecs are not widely available. You should try to convert it to a different avi format, or to mpeg.
There are free programs to do that... VirtualDub workes with AVIs and Tmpgenc makes mpegs.
Thanks, I'll look those up...ok, I'm using VirtualDub. Which compression format should I use?
You gotta move the camera more slowly when panning subjects ... I got whiplash watching it! :)
--Mark
Sorry. I'm a newbie at movie taking. And I got caught up in the moment.
Interesting news release:
http://www.njtransit.com/ne_pressrelease.jsp?PRESS_RELEASE_ID=533
It always amazes me that so much more seems to be going on at NJT than at MTA.
"It always amazes me that so much more seems to be going on at NJT than at MTA."
Unfortunately, the newly announced schedule is more than a year behind the schedule that was in effect on 9/10/01. And you can't blame the one year delay in the weekend availability of the Secaucus station on the WTC attack.
(Unfortunately, the newly announced schedule is more than a year behind the schedule that was in effect on 9/10/01. And you can't blame the one year delay in the weekend availability of the Secaucus station on the WTC attack.)
Sure you can. Most people will actually believe it too.
It's all propaganda...........
Today I was in the Sutphin Blvd station of the E and J train and was turned off on the condition of the station itself. How filthy and how many broken glasses there was. The station is only over 10 years old however the Metro in DC stations are 25 years old, are much cleaner and better taken care of why is that?
Unfortunataely, that station started to look grungy about 5-8 years ago already! It only looked good for the first few years. You are right Sutphin didn't age well at all. The station is only about 14 years old, hard to believe.
it will get cleaned up along with Airtrain progress.
Sutphin Blvd is 14 years old, not 10. But the point remains. It is much, much too young to look that way.
It's also an ugly station to begin with. It's amazing how the 63rd St stations are so nice looking when the Archer Ave stations, built at the same time, are so blah.
:-) Andrew
Don't you find Jamaica-Van Wyck attractive? I do. At the same time, I'm not a fan at all of 21st-Queensbridge or especially Roosevelt Island. (Lex looks basically fine but it's a hassle to use.)
Most of the Archer and 63rd Street stations are the pinacle of all the bad renovations they did in the 60 and 70's (such as Broadway and 4th Ave, IRT Cortlandt, etc. When they designed the new stations of those two lines in the 80's, I guess they were still in the "out with the old, and in with the new" mode (even though those are the original designs at those stations).
It wasn't until the 90's that they got smart and saw the beauty of the old designs, so most of the more recent renovations either preserve the past (Broadway stations, 33rd Street, 18th Street, etc) or have a retro look (like Fulton JMZ, Broad, 8th Ave), where they imitate old design elements (even better than the original IND look at those stations!). Maybe one day they can add a "retro" look to grungy looking stations like Sutphin. Unfortunately, in the meantime, there are still a lot of stations that need work before they even think of doing something there.
I don't mind a modern look in a new station -- I just dislike the particular modern look that some "new" (80's) stations have, especially Roosevelt Island. I like Jamaica-Van Wyck even though it's modern.
I do agree that the old designs usually come out better than the new ones. My favorite is probably 181st IRT, or at least that's how I feel today.
"Maybe one day they can add a "retro" look to grungy looking stations like Sutphin. Unfortunately, in the meantime, there are still a lot of stations that need work before they even think of doing something there."
You're confusing some issues here. Archer-Sutphin doesn't need any work beyond what the TA is doing to integrate it into Jamaica Station's upper levels.
"Grungy" means that we riders drop newspapers, bottles, cans and fast food wrappers everywhere except for the trashcans. If we stop doing that, and let the TA's cleaners catch up a little, the station won't be grungy anymore.
It's not just the dirt though. The tilework, floors, ceilings, just are really beat up compared to other stations. It may just be the materials used didn't age as well, or are not terribly durable for the NYC climate.
I'm through there a lot and I see some wear, but I see the same wear in other places.
The stairwells, for examples, do show some scuff - but they are in much better shape than stairs in other parts of the system.
Tile work on the walls? What unrenovated stations would you like to compare it to?
I'm through there a lot and I see some wear, but I see the same wear in other places.
The stairwells, for examples, do show some scuff - but they are in much better shape than stairs in other parts of the system.
Tile work on the walls? What unrenovated stations would you like to compare it to?
I meant the floor tiles, not the walls when I said tilework, the walls aren't "that bad". As for other stations that look better - the L line stations, the Fulton Subway, even the Queens Blvd stations (before some were renovated in the last few years). Yes, many may have less traffic and passengers, but they are 60 to 70 years old - not only 14.
Isn't Woodhaven the only QB Line station that's been renovated recently?
Yes, as far as I know Woodhaven is the only one, but Lorimer and Union Square on the L has been also, along with Utica on Fulton. It may not have been clear in the post, but the () was meant for the whole group, not just QB. Sorry if I was unclear.
Your clarification was helpful.
I wonder what kind of tile replacement schedule MTA was anticipating?
Well, the subway is like yor car in one sense: when there's a problem with your car, you call the mechanic or fix it yourself.
When there's a problem with the subway, you call MTA. If you're persistent and others also write with similar concerns, you may get action.
Bu the thing is, the majority is to lazy to call the MTA!
I have to agree.
But the thing is, the majority is to lazy to call the MTA!
Your very right GP38.. They did not considered the climate before they design the station.. But the Floor tile work does not explain the terrible shape the ceiling is in. What I suggest is a total overhaul (reconstruction with new and better materials) of the stations that are affected.
N Bwy
Since you didmn't identify the materials, it's hard to figure out which materials should be substituted.
The acoustic panels should be removed and replaced with straight concrete, covered with waterproof (pool) paint.
wayne
Thank you Wayne.
N Bwy
Would that signifiantly change the acoustics (I'm not saying it's a bad idea - it sounds good, actually).
They put acoustic ceilings up in the 49th STreet-Broadway station back in the 70's. It also seems to have held up better than Sutphin. It may just be a perception, but it really looks like they cut corners when they finished that station.
I like the Archer Av stations. But all subway stations in NY get beat up a lot, and Archer-Sutphin more than most, it seems. We riders are to blame. Why do we insist on littering, or dropping cigarette butts everywhere? There are trashcans; why can't we use them?
Bill mentioned a leak. Are we riders to blame for that? Or for the grimy ceiling? (I don't know if Sutphin has a grimy ceiling, but Roosevelt Island does.)
And what of it? It's the only station to have one?
If there is a leak, that belongs to the TA to fix, clearly. After 15 years, you can have a busted pipe. But I use that station frequently when in New York, and it's condition is little different than other heavily trampled stations. 99% of the problem there is trash and litter.
You want to fix it up? Fine: Step 1: Put your trash in trash cans, and don't spill your coffee on the platform running for a train.
Heavily trampled? It ranks 74th in the system (2000 turnstile counts). My little local home station on the 1/9 is busier, and is 84 years older, yet is kept reasonably clean. If the fault lies on subway passengers, then it lies on only a subclass of subway passengers.
So you're saying the littering and vandalism is heavier there? OK.
The overall ridership may not be as high, but recall that Jamaica Center and Sutphin being a bus transfer and (the latter) an LIRR transfer terminal, the crowds coming through during the AM rush and PM rush may indeed be higher than at your stop.
Can you compare the idership at 7AM between your station and Parsons? Your station and Sutphin?
Sorry, the only numbers I have are the annual turnstile registrations for 2000.
My station has a reasonably heavy passenger flow at all times of the day and night. There is a rush hour peak and a middle-of-the-night trough, of course, but that peak and that trough are much smaller than average. That's because my station is in the middle of a densely populated neighborhood and the subway is the neighborhood's primary mode of travel, not only commutation to work.
Sutphin functions differently in the system. I don't think it serves many area residents. Rather, it's a major transfer point and a destination for Jamaica employees. Most of its users don't live near the station -- they have to take a bus or train to get there. Most of them also have cars. So I'm sure the rush hour peak at Sutphin is very large.
In brief, yes, I agree that, when Sutphin is busy, it's busier than my home station -- but that's only for a few hours a day. There's lots of time between rush hours to clean it up, with little interference from passengers. So why is it still filthy? (I have a hypothesis, but I'm afraid some here wouldn't appreciate it.)
Incidentally, keep Jamaica Center out of it -- for two reasons. First, I don't think anyone said it was filthy. Second, it's busier than Sutphin -- much busier. It ranked 19th in 2000, with over twice the number of passengers. (OTOH, the Sutphin count doesn't include people transferring.)
Jamaica Center, with its brown paint scheme, hides dirt and track dust very well. I happen to like it; it has an earthy look to it.
wayne
I think that is the whole problem with Sutphin. Whether it's done cheaply or not, the choices of colors, and materials were a poor choice. Even if it's just "looks" like it is in worse shape. Basicall, a "newer" station shouldn't look as bad as it does. The other ones may be just as dirty, but the fact that Sutphin shows it worse confirms that the material/color choices there were bad.
I agree wholeheartly. The orange tiles were a bad choice. I much prefer Sutphin Blvd. on the "F" line. The "Sunshine Yellow" tiles give a much cheerier appearance, and that station is about 50 years older!
A subsequent poster did finally mention the issue of acoustic tiles. He made an excellent point. Maybe the TA needs to change its cleaning strategy.
By the way, Jamaica-Van Wyck occasionally gets tagged w/marker graffitti on the skylights. A regular cleaning is in order there, too, and the occasional "trap" to arrest the vandal.
It's not the passengers as much as how the station was designed.. pretty much with very cheap materials that wears out over a short period of time. That's what you seeing deteriation of cheap materials.
N Bwy
1) Do the cheap materials include Coke cans, Burger King wrappers, styrofoam cups and newspapers? Did the TA put them there to hold up the walls?
2)What other cheap materials are you referring to?
3)Which non-cheap materials would hold up to a continuous stampede of people and would be vandals?
Have you personaly seen this, or are you referring to someone else' postings?
There was one case where a TA work room's bathroom piping was left open by a contractor, and the swer pipe from it discharged onto the tracks. The TA acknowledged it and sent somebody to close it off.
That was not a design flaw - just stupidity by a plumber.
Wasn't that at the Times Square terminal stop on the 7 line?
Very appropriate for the Flushing line!!
Was it? Maybe Imixed the two stations up in that case.
Yes, it is appropriate: the toilet was flushed and it flushed before the Flushing passengers...
:0(
Just look at the entire platform.. Besides, you can't blame the passengers for the ceiling falling apart.
N Bwy
Parsons Blvd is probably not high on the maintenance list due to it's young age. Both it and Sutphin also have unusual light fixtures I haven't seen in other stations.
Exactly, it shouldn't look that bad after just 14 years. And if some of it has to do with vandalism, they knew better than to use shoddy materials in the late 80's, especially after the 1970's decade. Like I said, the older stations that were built way before people even thought of littering and destroying (at least to the extent it was done in the 70's and today) held up through it all better.
I have looked at the platform. Nothing particularly wrong with it or the ceiling.
I've seen it ALL.. and I can tell if something was built with the best material or something was smash together just to make everyone happy for a couple of years. And that is the case at the Sutphin Blvd train station!
N Bwy
Can you be more specific? Which materials, and why are they cheap? Identify them.
It's hard for me to tell whether you are bulling us, or you have real information.
Refer to Wayne.. or someone else more knowledgeable in this area.
N Bwy
Agreed. Wayne has posted something valuable. See my reply.
It's not just that the riders "beat" on the stations. Some of the never renovated, 80+ year old stations are in better shape than Sutphin which is only 14 years old!
Do these stations get as much ridership as Sutphin? And which stations do you claim are better?
BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO KEEP COST DOWN! Bottom LINE!!!!!
N Bwy
Don't you find Jamaica-Van Wyck attractive? I do. At the same time, I'm not a fan at all of 21st-Queensbridge or especially Roosevelt Island. (Lex looks basically fine but it's a hassle to use.)
Jamaica-Van Wyck is the best looking of the three Archer Ave stations. It's not bad. But Sutphin and Jamaica Center are heinous.
I think 21st Queensbridge is quite attractive, and Roosevelt Island even more so. They feel spacious, much less closed-in than the vast majority of underground stations. They also don't look much like NYC Subway stations, but that is their charm.
:-) Andrew
To me, Roosevelt Island feels much more closed in than it should given its design. Spacious? Give me 168th or 181st on the IRT.
I think Roosevelt Island is the best looking station opened in the 1980's. Supthin Blvd is ok, but Parsons is too dark. Jamaica Van-Wyck looks so out of place, like a european subway station. My favorite station along the 63rd. St. line, believe it or not, is 57th St.
57th Street is a very nice station. Plain and simple, but very functional. And the entrance staircases look handsome too.
Just please add an elevator.
LOL. During the mid 1980's, 57th St. was the nicest station in the whole system, served by some of the worst cars in the system, both before and after the AB track closure of 1986.
I agree. My trips to Long Beach on LIRR usually took me through Sutphin, and I always felt that station was filthy. I never looked forward to going through there. Plus, the stairs are two narrow. When one n/b E train detrains, it takes forever to get upstairs.
That's another problem with that station, THEY DIDN'T BUILD ENOUGH STAIRWAYS.. For instance, you have to walk to the middle of the station just to use two stairways.. and that is absolutely ridiculous!
N Bwy
Funny you should mention "not enough stairways". Well, it's not really funny, but it still brings a small smirk to my face, although it didn't at the time:
It was about 1991 (or when ever Colin Fergueson? did his rampage on the LIRR). It was a few days before Christmas, and I had just finished my semester at college, and was heading out on the J to catch the LIRR to go out to my grandmother's house for Christmas. It was a few weeks after the rampage, and people I guess were still a little freaked about it. My J train was just pulling into Sutphin, and it must have made some noises like gunshots, and all of a sudden there was a stampede for the stairways. I thought it was gunshots also because it really did sound like it, and with everyone frantic, there really weren't enough stairways to get out, especially when everyone is in panic mode. I never did find out how the train made those noises or what it really was, but whenever I think of that station, I think of the panic for those few minutes in that station that day, and everyone running for the stairs screaming.
It was a cost cutting measure.. you can factor in the cheap materials that was used in the design as well. Stairways - etc.
(and time when the work was to be completed to satisfied the constiuents)
N Bwy
You say cheap materials, but you don't seem to be able to identify why they are cheap and what the deterioration actually looks like compared to other stations.
Perhaps some photos would help the rest of us understand.
I wish I had the time... But I don't.. Maybe someone can go down there and take some photos of the situation.
N Bwy
Wasn't there a news story some years ago,about the shoddy concrete used to build the new lines,and it was crumbling in Al Dimoto's hands,on the footage?
when ever Colin Fergueson? did his rampage on the LIRR
December 7, 1993. I once used microfilm to look up an editorial in the Times that was published on December 8, and obviously the massacre was the headline on the front page.
1993 it must be then! All I knew was that it was in December and early 90's.
You're right. Especially when you consider that this station was built in modern times, one would think they'd learn from the flaws in stations built many years ago.
It was a cost cutting measure.. you can factor in the cheap materials that was used in the design as well.
(and time when the work was to be completed to satisfied the constiuents)
N Bwy
That's true. I fully agree with other posters that there should be more and wider exits.
The renovation of Jamaica Station may remedy this. If you use the station a lot, write to MTA and say so.
This station was built in modern times, with projections for heavy useage. How those narrow stairs got past the planning stages in beyond me.
The MTA's bureaucracy.
That's what amazes me too! It's not like it's an old station that needs to meet current needs. It's a "new" station that needs to meet current needs. They were able to start from scratch when they built that. "MTA's bureaucracy", as mentioned has to be the reason.
Amen to that. I thought Parsons/Archer was bad, but Supthin is many times worse. Check out the ceiling above the esclators. You will see some kind of tarp attached to the ceiling. In the middle is a hole with a hose coming out of the bottom. The hose goes into a drain on the mezzanine. I have no idea if the water drips or flows, but if that setup was not there, passengers would have water coming down onto them while they are riding the escalators. By the stairs leading to the street, according to how the wind is blowing, you can smell rotten fish every evening around 8 PM.
Obvious. If it isn't ignorance on the MTA's part, then the passengers are to blame.
Keep in mind that the station receives plenty of people, primed to walk all around the place, gathering up the damage.
Either, the passengers are vandalizing it, or doing havoc with it and the MTA can't keep up...anything in that range is viable.
Passengers aren't vandalzing the station... the station wasn't design properly and that's why it's falling apart.
N Bwy
I was talking about the view from an intentional perspective. I don't hang around there long enough to notice structural damage.
You keep repeating that without presenting any objective evidence. Do you often post without researching facts?
saw it today since the fall of 2000 ...........................
sure looked a WHOLE LOT BETTER THEN ! whatsuuupp...??...with dat'.?
man i would CUT LOOSE with some water hoses !!!
the place looks like it aged with 40 years of neglect !!
The station has been pretty shabbily taken care of for the past few years. In the last few months (basically since they closed the SW exit), though, it seems to have gone from bad to worse.
It's almost like they've thrown their hands up and said -- "there's construction going on around here, we give up".
The AirTrain looks very nice and clean. It'll be a shame if they don't clean up Sutphin by the time it opens.
CG
There are several flaws in Sutphin Boulevard station. One of them is the use of the acoustic panels on the upper-level ceiling, which act as a magnet for track-dust and as such become filthy. The only solution is to clean them with high-pressure water or steam. With the high ceiling, cleaning them becomes problematic.
Another problem isn't the fault of the subway station, it is rather the fault of the storm sewer beneath Archer Avenue. There is very likely a leak in this storm sewer, affecting the station below.
To wit: You will notice that on the upper level, above the escalators leading to the lower level, there is a huge LEAK, with a tarpaulin to catch it and a Hose to drain it. The hose leads to the mezzanine, and so to a drain. During heavy rains, this drain backs up causing the hose to back up, causing the tarpaulin to fill up and drip all over the place. And when the drain backs water overflows onto the mezzanine floor and finds its way to the underside ceiling where it drips onto unsuspecting passengers descending the staircase. A real mess. The tarpaulin has a bizarre rust pattern in it, and the ceiling has been ruined in the general area.
wayne
OK, thank you. Now we're getting somewhere.
So you're saying the TA put up acoustic panels hoping to deaden the sound of the trains and help people have a more pleasant voyage. Except that these panels need to be cleaned often and it takes a hose, water, and a TA worker on a high ladder or cherry-picker to do it.
"You will notice that on the upper level, above the escalators leading to the lower level, there is a huge LEAK, with a tarpaulin to catch it and a Hose to drain it. The hose leads to the mezzanine, and so to a drain. During heavy rains, this drain backs up causing the hose to back up, causing the tarpaulin to fill up and drip all over the place."
This implies that the City streets department needs to do something.
This wouldn't be the first time the MTA and city don't play nicely together. When it snows, the sidewalk near Queens Village LIRR leading up to the steps gets icy and dangerous - but the city doesn't get around often to taking care of it, so passengers end up taking spills. The MTA won't take care of it automatically due to turf problems.
You may be correct in identifying the City as culprit since it's no doubt their main. My guess there's a crack in a joint between two sections of main, OR a connecting collar between the sections has worked loose due to traffic vibrations. And it's not too deep either. It should be DIRECTLY OPPOSITE of the entrance next to the LIRR office building. I bet if they wanted to fix it they could do so in the space of two days. Meanwhile, the station ceiling has been pretty badly damaged in that one area. The rust stain on the tarp looks like a Rohrscach blot.
Look at 5th Avenue/53rd Street upper level, another example of acoustic materials becoming a magnet for track dust.
wayne
Yes, I agree with your reasoning.
A cherry-picker? Maybe there are cherries growing up there. After all, we did say there was water. Wouldn't that be neat?
More like rust, mould and mildew :o>
wayne
That's another good point.
Modern building materials, while very durable, also tend to be watertight- and encourage the growth of mold (witness recent news stories about home insurance mold claims).
Could this be a problem here?
Sorry you han an unpleasant experience. Near the booth oin every station is a poster readin in part"
Name
is the Superintendent of this station
It gives a phone number ,718-243-3222 and an adrees:
370 Jay Street room 427-4.
You can contact this person to register your concerns.
Thank you for posting that.
Sorry you han an unpleasant experience. Near the booth in every station is a poster readin in part"
Name
is the Superintendent of this station
It gives a phone number ,718-243-3222 and an adrees:
370 Jay Street room 427-4.
You can contact this person to register your concerns.
What about the leak in the ceiling near the mezzanine and thoses linenes hanging from the ceiling collecting water? The station is only 14 years old an it has leak??? IS it below the water line or something?
At 130 st and jamaica ave, a large set of stairs are being built.
It looks like a subway enterence of some sort. It can be seen from a LIRR train heading westbound just before Jamaica.
Dunno what the stairs are for, but I'll look for them tomorrow from my train.
"At 130 st and jamaica ave, a large set of stairs are being built.
It looks like a subway enterence of some sort. It can be seen from a LIRR train heading westbound just before Jamaica"
Something is mixed up in the above. 130 St and Jamaica is visible either from a westbound to Penn just after Jamaica or an eastbound from Penn just before Jamaica.
Might have something to do with AirTrain.
I heard that service to Hoboken will start on Sept. 29 and will be the Highlight of the NJT festival at the terminal.
Troy
>>I heard that service to Hoboken will start on Sept. 29 and will be the Highlight of the NJT festival at the terminal.<<
That's what I hear too. I also heard that complimentary ride tickets will be given out at Hoboken Festival for the opening of the Hoboken extension. Check out the NJT table, as I will too.
Bill "Newkirk"
The NJT Boonton Line timetables dated Sept 29 state that the HBLR runs to/from Hoboken Terminal. There were two boxes of them available in the terminal last Friday.
the posted the timetime showing service to hobeken in nj transit web site
I took a ride from the re-opened South Ferry Station on my way home today.
On the way I shot some photos of the "Station Shell" in the rebuilt tunnel under ground zero.
Then took the Grand Central Shuttle to the Transit Museum Store at Grand Central.
Saw they are selling R-44 number plates.
Then headed home going through the Atlantic Avenue (IRT - BMT Brighton) station.
-Larry
Awesome pictures.
Your pictures are the greatest. Thanks for making my day!
Chuck Greene
1955 was a good year for the Brooklyn Dodgers.:) That was also when the infamous Triplex Tussle occurred near Stillwell Ave.
What was that? A horrible accident, I presume?
Two Triplexes got into it in June of 1955. 6078A and B along with 6045C (or was it 6043?) were mangled up. There's a photo in Subway Cars of the BMT. They took 6078C and grafted it onto 6045B and renumbered it accordingly. The damaged sections were scrapped.
This was the only known collision involving Triplexes. There must have been a pretty loud bang when it occurred. They were normally quite docile unlike the BMT standards.
Perhaps, but bear in mind, there were alot more Standards than D-Types. Do you think there will ever be another BMT Standard Fan Trip? I sure hope so...
That last part was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek. There were no documented collisions involving Triplexes with anything else. You know who would have won.:)
I would imagine that once the Museum standards (2390-91-92) are fully restored, they'll make the rounds on fantrips once again. I personally would love to see a train of R-1/9s on a fantrip. Wishful thinking.
Are there even any R-1/9's left?
In fact, there are more R-1/9's still in existance than any other type of car. Some are in excellent condition, while others need some work. With a little effort though, I know there could be a 10-car consist. I suggested a fantrip of R-1/9's several weeks ago. Anything to break up the monotony of the D-Types....
Are there even any R-1/9's left?
Come up to Branford for Autumn in New York (September 28th and 29th) and ride one :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sadly, I can never make those kind of excursions... ;-(
How gruesome, considering the triplexes were the heaviest of all NYC subway cars.
Nice photos.
What happened after you got home? More photos, please.
This is like The Truman Show.
When will PATH ever get new cars?? At 33rd Street today, I still see the PA-1s and 2s rolling, and damn they been on the road since 1965, and the last time they got new cars was 1986, when the PA-4 rolled onto PATH rails. I am interested very much to see what new PATH cars are gonna look like. Does anyone know when they plan to get new cars?
The new order has been placed with the carbuilders. It'll be a year or two, maybe more.
With the new cars, would you know if our rail fan windows would be lost to full-width cabs?
Path will purchase the PA 5. They should be on the road in 2005, and should replace the PA 1 and 2.
Can anyone here tell me the addresses of offices and/or headquarters locations for the following area agencies in regards to employmwnt opportunities. I love what I do at NYC Transit, but I do have plans to start moves to bigger and better things. I already know about MNRR and LIRR, and have already began to throw my hat in (yet again after doing that for over 7 years!!) but does anyone here know where to apply for PATH, NJ Transit, and how does one go about getting hired over to MTA Staten Island Railway? SIR is the biggest mystery to me since I joined the MTA, no one I talked to knows.
Check Port Authority for a PATH job. NJ Transit is hiring. I know a T/O who recently quit the TA to go to NJ Transit as a T/O.
So do I and his teeth are straight and he SPEAKS ENGLISH fluently.
SIRT is NOT bigger and better unless you live in SI and hate commuting and like pay cuts.
SIRT is a different union site. Better working conditions, far less money than TWU 100 NYCTA work but a few dollars above Bombardier.
SIR gives there own tests for T/O and more often promotes from within. They've gotten rid of the trainman title and just have C/R's now.
Have you called and asked them 718-966-SIRT is there travel line. The SIR police number is 718-876-8269.
Thanx!!:-) Would you or anyone happen to know about NJT and PATH?
Contact PATH at One PATH Plaza, Jersey City, NJ.
You can try out PATH at aol search "Port Authority of Ny and NJ" if you carry aol. Look under Employment Opportunities and choose the PATH sight. I'll get better specific details for you later on.
The site is www.panynj.gov for PATH and other Port Authority positions. Start here and check it out.
I am paying a visit to New York in the very near future (from England), and would have 3 hours to look at the railway, probably in the mid- to late-afternoon on a Wednesday or a Thursday. Can you advise me where I can go in the New York environs to see a wide selection of locomotive hauled trains, passenger (and freight, too, if possible). Because of the brief period I have, the emphasis must be on quantity.
Replies before September 23rd, please
Thanks for your help.
Wally Huckle
- Grand Central Station
- Penn Station
- Sunnyside yard
I would say Hunterspoint Ave. if you want to see LIRR diesel equipment in its entirety. However during AM and PM rush, you can see some of the bi-levels in Penn Station with the DM30AC locomotives running in its quiet electric mode. Best time to see that is the 4:19, and 4:49 trains to Port Jefferson to which both depart from track 19.
5:10 Speonk, don't forget. 6:10 Oyster Bay is too far from the other departures.
I know that, I just mentioned the Port Jeff trains only. Although, I don't know what tracks those 2 depart from, and I am referring to the Speonk, and Oyster Bay trains.
- Grand Central Station
Don't think he's likely to see any locomotive-hauled trains in Grand Central Station at that time of day... they usually only come out at night and on the weekends. Up in Grand Central Terminal, though, he probably will :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course if he collects stamps, then Grand Central Station 10017 is a good place to go.
If you're not nice I'm going to hide 629 on you < G >
Take a PATH train to Harrison, just east of Newark. Several Amtrak and New Jersey Transit trains daily traverse several tracks in running through the middle of the outdoor PATH station. You will likely see Acela Express trainsets, AEM7s, HHP-8s and ALP46 electric locos. I can't remember if the Raritan Line's diesels (GP40's?) pass through that area before relaying to the yard east of Newark station. If they do, you'll be able to see them too. You likely won't see any freight activity on the line, although some may be observed while riding to and from on lines bisecting the NEC.
Yes they do. Plus, don't forget waterfront service.
Yes, Raritan trains do pass Harrison. Plus, don't forget waterfront service.
Also, I think from the East end of the station you can see the Morris & Essex lines (Lackawanna Main).
i agree with harry harrison is one area busy spots but you if want to see freight also try roselle park on the raritan line
testing......
>>> I am paying a visit to New York in the very near future (from England), and would have 3 hours to look at the railway, probably in the mid- to late-afternoon on a Wednesday or a Thursday <<<
Is this a three hour layover between planes? If so, you will probably be disappointed. The main passenger train stations, Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station are both subterranean, which greatly hinders viewing trains pulling in and out. Most freight operations take place in neighboring New Jersey rather than New York City, which is beyond a comfortable round trip range from JFK.
Tom
For a 3-hour layover (if that's actually what he means), I'd recommend a quick taxi to and from Jamaica station.
Story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-litrai182929802sep18(0,6458228).story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
As long as it was a judgement call, where the crew considered "what is best for this passenger?" and then acted on it, I can't blame them even if another course of action might have been better. When every minute counts, there is no guarantee that the perfect decision will be made. The only thing that would be reprehensible would be giving more concern to keeping the schedule than to the life of a passenger.
It's strange seeing IND style column tiles going up on the Atlantic Avenue station on the brighton line.
As long as I can remember they were always plain concrete columns.
I know there was a big flood there in the late 50's or early 60's, which is when some areas of tiles on the walls were removed.
Were there EVER tiles on the columns there in the past?
http://subway.com.ru/09172002/pages/DSCN1486.htm
http://subway.com.ru/09172002/pages/DSCN1489.htm
NICE!
N Bwy
what i dont't like is that they lowered the tile work on the manhattna bound platform to be lower than the electrical lines. The tile and mosaic is about 3 feet lower than the tile and mosaic on the coney island bound platform
Yes, I've noticed that too.
It would have looked better if it was the same height as the tile on the other side, and the wires were just in front of it.
Now it just looks like they tiled around the wires.
the one good thing about the tiles being lower is that you can read the atlantic ave mosaic from inside the train
I don't like the new tiles. They're taking up the space from the colunm to the edge. I prefer if they'd just plastered the holes up. And I don't like the way they did the tiles on the Manhattan-bound side. Then again, there's no other place to put the signal wires so I guess you have to slide the tiles down to where the top designs are visible from inside the train.
I'm surprised they just didn't rip off the concrete and leave the columns of steel bare like they did at Broadway Lafayette a few years back.
They chipped off the tile and concrete from the pillars at Spring St on Lexington also. The ones at Atlantic were ugly, but I kind of liked the tiled columns on the lower Lexington Line and upper 7th Ave-Broadway Line. They did save them at 33rd Street, and at Canal. However at Canal they retiled them and unfortunately didn't leave the oled tiled "Cana;" signs, and instead put up the standard black signs there.
I think that the Building Code or the Fire Code requires that all steel columns in or under buildings be covered or coated in order to prevent (or delay) buckling in the event of a fire. I heard this (either on a tour or someplace like SubTalk) as an explantion for Jay Street and Hoyt-Schermerhorn, where only half the stations (under buildings) were built with covered columns.
I think that the Building Code or the Fire Code requires that all steel columns in or under buildings be covered or coated in order to prevent (or delay) buckling in the event of a fire. I heard this (either on a tour or someplace like SubTalk) as an explantion for Jay Street and Hoyt-Schermerhorn, where only half the stations (under buildings) were built with covered columns.
How interesting! I always wondered why Jay Street had "naked" columns on one platform and covered columns on the other. Does that explain why Canal Street on the JMZ has one side covered, and the other not? I assume that most covered-column stations are covered decoratively, but this explanation would explain why some are covered only partly in some stations.
Yes.
Any platform columns and/or pillars under structures are clad, even if it results in an odd pattern like that at Jay & Hoyt.
wayne
I heard that on here a while back as well. I thought it ridiculous, but we've all now seen the consequences of unprotected strucural steel exposed to the high heat of fire over an extended period of time.
I think that I heard on This Old House that a wood beam or column would take much longer to burn through than a comparably strong metal support would to buckle under the heat. A lot of 1950s and 1960s office buildings used asbestos as fireproofing to protect the metal beams and girders.
I wonder if asbestos protection would have been a better choice for the World Trade towers than that fragile spray-on fireproofing stuff.
Come on Peggy's tour on 10/6/02. She plans on stoppiong at Atlamtic Ave Complex.
Sounds like fun, I'll try to make it.
The columns, being under structures, MUST be clad, be it in plain concrete or tile over concrete. This is a Fire Department regulation.
Let's hope they do the whole thing right AND put the tile back up on the trackside walls too. This is NOT a very elaborate mosaic to recreate, the center of the tile band is almost all the same color, the pattern is not that complex either, only fancy part are the little red diamonds. The tilesmiths have made much more complicated friezes and tablets lately.
Too bad they can't put a topper band around the top of the column like they did at Grand Central 4/5/6. AND one of the photos shows a shovelnose pulling out with its Slant Q sign illuminated. Glad to see they're getting that one straightened out.
wayne
MARTA looks into one-card-pays-all system
Finally, MARTA is serious about installing a new fare system. I’ve said before that we have the shittiest fare system in the world. Tokens SUCK and calendar based unlimited cards SUCK, too. It will be nice to be able to use all four transit services plus other transport services with one card. This article is dead on about how bad the current turnstiles are and about fare evasion. I would not be surprised if at least 10% of all the passengers on the trains evaded fare. I remember standing next to the turnstiles at one station waiting for someone to pick me up, and in ten minutes I saw five people beat fare. And those friggin’ handicap gates are the number one way of beating the fare. It’s easy to just pull open the gate from the opposite side and walk through. If all the turnstiles aren’t working (happens often), everyone just uses the gate, but they hold the gate open for the next person and it just stays open for all the people in line, therefore you never get an accurate passenger count. Sometimes if a cop is there, he’ll hold the door open and let people through but you actually have to show your pass or give the token to him. That’s the only time when you won’t see fare beating. And maybe they’ll get rid of those five foot high barriers between the paid and the unpaid area. It’s so easy to jump over them, and I’ve seen it countless times.
Is there a problem with MARTA's unlimited ride cards or do you dislike calendar-based unlimited ride cards in general? SEPTA uses them, and the only complaint I have is that sometimes I might forget to buy a new pass before the first day of the month. But other than that I like it because I can ride as much as I want and I never have to worry about how much value my card has at a given moment.
Mark
I'm not fond of the fact that they only sell the respective cards (daily, weekend, weekly, monthly) during certian days. Weekly and Weekend cards can only be bought Wedensday-Sunday, monthly cards only a week before and after the start of a month. And like you said, if you forget to buy a card before the month starts, you still have to pay for the days which you didn't have it.
Daily cards and multiday cards are the worst because they only issue them when large conventions are scheduled, which can be anywhere from every two weeks out of the month to every couple of months, it's very unpredcitable.
Also, there are only six stations in the whole system which sell passes, so it's very inconvienent to buy them, unless you can get them through your school or employer.
"...there are only six stations in the whole system which sell passes..."
It sounds as if MARTA should get its marketing act together. Here is Los Angeles, supermarkets all over the city sell MTA passes. What's missing in this city is one-day and three-day passes, which would appeal to tourists.
man you can say that again ! a one month pass and tokens only ???
& in LA at dat'...!!..........?
i remember other placsin atlanta with passes but only a few ..!
When I lived in Boston, one of the emergency exit gates at Central Square was frequently left unlocked and open, so up to 20% of the crowd waiting for a train were fare-beaters.
It got me a little upset - and writing letters to MBTA. The gate was shut after that.
MBTA fares are probably the lowest rail fares in the Northeast. Shame on the farebeaters.
Perhaps with the implementation of the 'smart cards' they can also implement a system like in DC where your fare depends on the distance of your ride. I like to park at College Park when flying but paying 3.50 for round trip train fare for a 1500 foot ride to the Airport station is ridiculous.
But don't you think that it would discourage the suburbanuts to ride the train? When MARTA rasied the fare from $1.50 to $1.75, they lost almost 10% of the ridership mostly because of less 'burb ridership. Most people using the central stations are more likely to be using the train anyway, the suburbanuts will be more quickly turned off than they were if they see it's higher to ride from the terminal stations.
Also, if MARTA started from day one with a distance fare, than most suburbanuts would be used to it. It's very hard to take away flat fares once you've been used to it forever. I know I won't like having to figure out the cost to each station that I would use in the course of a month.
What can the front LED signage display...just 1 thru 9??, Red only??Circle or Diamond??...thanks....
Front display shows in red only, but it shows all lines 1-9, and can change easily to diamond. It's confusing with Lex Line in green, and Flushing in purple, but that's how things were made on the R142.
Yes, the red only choice for the LED was really cost saving....
You don't need purple since the 7 never shares tracks and red is close enough anyway.
That doesn't even matter.
The color is the least of your worries since they can't even run on the 7 yet.
It is strange that Red was chosen. According to what I've read in science magazines, yellow is the easiest color to discern...
True thats most likly why Green Bus orions have yellow LED signs. And some RTSes in Flushing have them.
Regrettably, the front signage LEDs are only in red :(
Now I am very much a fan of the R-142(a) series, but I was always disappointed that the MTA didn't go the extra mile and allow for more colors on the front route designation displays. It didn't have to be a full color LED display; I just wish it permitted the three colors used by the A division. You would probably need a red/green/blue display then. Do they even make blue LEDs? I can't recall ever seeing them, although they must be out there.
The good thing about the front roll sign was that you could readily tell what color train was arriving. I recall waiting at East 53rd Street and Lexington and being able to tell whether the R-68 was an (E) or an (F) when the train was halfway through the 53rd Street tubes! (okay, not halfway...)
Matt
R-68's on the E and F?
...-68, -68a, the difference never mattered much to me. Maybe it matters more to everyone else, but not much to me, except that they're both 75-footers.
I've never seen an R-68A on the E or F either.
R-68's are only used on lines based out of Concourse and Coney Island, and R-68A's are only used on lines based out of Coney Island. The E and F come out of Jamaica, which has R-32's and R-46's. Are you thinking of an R-46, by any chance?
Seriously? Forgive me, as I don't recall whether an R-68 or R-68A was assigned to the (F), but I distinctly recall riding in those 75-ft cars on many occasions up until (about) Summer of 2001. After that, a bad incident at East 53rd and Lexington Station made me give up my railfanning there. I recall back in late 2000, there was a blizzard right before New Year's. It was a workday, about mid-morning, and I remember waiting for an (E) at East 53rd to take me to Penn station. I remember that (unusually) two (F) trains came in a row, and that I was getting nervous, as I was already running late. Finally, the thrird train was an (E), and I remember the gratitude I felt as I could see that blue roll sign barelling up the 53rd Street tubes. I don't specifically recall riding in an R-68(a) (E) train on other occasions.
Matt
...then again, I have no way of remembering if one or both were R-44/R-46... whatever...
Matt
I don't think any R-68 or R-68A has ever run on the E or F, barring unusual circumstances.
The E and F, like all Jamaica-based lines, run (and have run in recent years) R-32's and/or R-46's, nothing else. (I think the E had some R-38's, borrowed from the A/C for the brief period after 9/11 when it was running to Euclid in place of the C.)
It could have been a BD GO. I have seen R-44 As and R-38 Cs on the queens blvd line when there was a power outage last summer.
Redbirds, R62s and R142s in numberworld. R68s and R143s in letterworld. Head on display of R142 wouldn't even make a good SkeeBall display.....it is a array of RED LEDS. Plenty of LED color now....blue..blue/white..almost white makes for a great low power flashlight. BBD display remains red. CI peter
If they somehow managed to come up with a better array of LEDs (ones displaying more than one color), how hard would it be to replace them?
Just curious.
wayne
Head on display is a big black box. It contains a LED array, a display driver, a microprocessor controller, a power supply/regulator and a communications interface. System commands a number and a border...display complies...Selkirk would like me to mod the units for 'snake eyes.' Just like my old pinball machines...post neon numeric display and pre alpha numeric display.
Simply, the box receives a coded command to display a number and a border, nothing else. TA got what contracts specified...multicolor display changeout could be simple BUT Bombardier is so inept in trainsets and TA so desperate for working trainsets...such a display right now is out of the question. CI Peter
Page about Blue LEDs
Yes I am aware that I am nuts. I spend wayyy TOOOOO much time on the net. I have know about LED museum for 3 years now. Lots of historic LEDS and diffent kinds.
Trip to LED museum was so exciting!!! Is there a museum for Eimac vacuum transmitting tubes too? I buried the records for 8874/8875 Redbirds...trainsets went for work trains. Came back RTO to haunt me for 'troubles.' 8875 high Mu grounded grid triode with large horizontal cooling fins...overdrive em and grids go mush. CI peter
This morning the NY Waterways Ferry from LIC to 34th Street was packed. One of the passengers told me that they were taking the ferry because the 7 train was not running. Does anyone know what happened on the 7?
It was running but with long delays. Made me very, very late for work on a day I could not afford to be.
---Andrew
Ahhh - might have something to do with the UN... Well the ferry service made a fortune today - it was SRO on the boat!!
I didn't encounter any problems this morning at about 7:30 this morning. Anybody know if rush hour tonight will be effected?
Thanks,
Paul
Cars 7051-55 delivered by SBK last night.
Cars 7711-20 delivered, and in testing for #4 service. Only 10 142As to go!!!
Cars 7686-90 and 7706-10 at the East, Monday night. Unknown if these have entered service or when they will be going to the 4.
-Stef
Did anyone know that you can run half R142A and half R142 together? I don't u couldn't. I remember one day I was burn testing one of half and half. When we reach the first station my C/R is suppose to open on the off side but the back section being R142A open on the platform side. But the first section open on the off side (R142). So that was a wash but I guess they got the kinks out because I operated one of half/half last week. Does anyone know what was done to fix that problem?
What? They're running half and half? The last time they tried it, it was decalred a failure. Are you sure it wasn't a 7000 Series Bombardier Unit you had on your train?
-Stef
Yep I had two that day and today I was on the 5 line again I had one trip with half/half. I know about the failure because I was the first one to test them when they try it. But like I said before the first station we stop at the back open on the platform and the first open on the off side. TEST OVER Return to the yard
Did anyone know that you can run half R142A and half R142 together? I thought u couldn't. I remember one day I was burn testing one of half and half. When we reach the first station my C/R is suppose to open on the off side but the back section being R142A open on the platform side. But the first section open on the off side (R142). So that was a wash but I guess they got the kinks out because I operated one of half/half last week. Does anyone know what was done to fix that problem?
The last set should be 7751-60 unless the order was cut short. Thats what the R142A Kawaski training book said.
I must be in error! Sorry....
-Stef
Take a look at this photo and caption: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/020918/170/29xro.html&e=20
Sweet.
Will that involve a two-zone fare?
:0)
No it's a Three-Zone fare the North Zone, the South Zone anf the Demilitarized Zone.
Robert
Perhaps deboarding of trains and a walk through customs?
Ha ha....Good for them.
Another photo: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/020919/161/2a2om.html&e=18
This one's from my neck of the woods! http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=3456
--Brian
Took a ride thru the that tunnel on Sept 1
BTW this trolley line is under FRA operating rules.
You were at Steamtown for RailExpo?
The trolley line is an active freight railroad.
Friend of family has a place in Gouldsboro, so I went with my parents for Labor Day weekend, and I made to Scranton. My parents went to Italian festival, I went to Steamtown.
BTW last year RailExpo was much better.
Thanks for the report Brian.
I've passed it on to my minor league baseball friends (they didn't mind staying in the RxR Station Hotel a couple of years ago).
First a word about the CBC. Fifty years ago this month, the CBC started broadcasting television, in addition to radio and they're celebrating this important anniversary. Part of the celebrations have included putting a lot of vintage video clips highlighting events over the past five decades, and one of them, a news clip from 1954, covers the opening of the Yonge subway.
It's several minutes long and talks about the construction (watch carefully and you can see some Peter Witt trains in a few of the scenes), the opening ceremonies and the operation of the line. There's some good footage of an old bus driving up to a subway station, a multiple unit PCC streetcar train arriving in the surface station on Bloor St. at Yonge St., and lots of Gloucster scenes including one of a train coming to a stop in a station with someone riding in the railfan window. There are also a couple of interesting views of passengers using the long gone original token and transfer machines, too.
With respect to the commentary, the trip from Welleseley to Bloor shows a lot more than that one station ride underground. Also, the 'Toronto has a subay - really' commentary is odd. I think, but I'm not sure, that this alludes to the fact that it took a very long time for Toronto to get past the proposals stage which started in 1917, if not earlier, to opening the first section of Yonge in 1954.
Here are the links to the clips:
Quicktime
Windows Media
Real Audio video
All I can say is that when I see this kind of footage, I really miss being able to ride those lovely Gloucster cars in service...
Enjoy the clips.
-Robert King
The clip is very boring without audio, the only problem is this komputor doesn't have a sound carde.
That was wonderful.
Of course, now I'm going to wonder forever about the "Flight to the North Pole" segment that followed it on the original source! :)
Mark
Rob, thanks for sharing... great clip!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Neaterons ... will have to have someone dub that onto a CDROM. I live upstate in what Senator Bruno calls "Tech Valley" ... broadband is NOT available up here, as good as it gets is maybe 36000 baud if the wind's blowing the right way. Here in "Tech Valley", "Broadband" is defined as jugs and a kazoo. :)
Robert: please post for me the URL so I can share....DL at 48.5 kB will keep me up all night! Kevin: is this sucky flying spot scanner or what.....did you view this on a 3ADP1 kinescope with a mirror? CI peter
Yes, I believe it was recorded on the Baird system. Fortunately I have a tuned array that can pull in CBFT out of Montreal so I'll catch it that way. Spinning disk, no problem. :)
I was disappointed with the quality too, particularly the size on screen of that clip, but that was broadcast in NTSC. What I think we are seeing is the original film that would have been run through a telecine machine to generate the weekly broadcast rather than a film recording of the NTSC picture. This was 1954 people, not 1934.
Either way, that file of around 9 MB into a video running over 6 minutes in length with a sound track's bound to kick the quality down. I know that they can't bump up the file size much more given that they've got however many other clips to store and then there are the bandwith and transfer time factors to consider, but I still would have liked that display to be a bit larger.
-Robert King
URL URL URL what is the site????? CI Peter is WB2SGT.....vintage 1 KW AME on eighty meters!!!!!!
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=386216
Go to above message, links soldered in place ...
16, 25 or 32 holes? Neon or Crater bulb? Did you know the Nipkow spinning disk was replaced with a rotating drum of horizontal mirror segments? I'll have to find the 'Old Timers Bulliten' that listed on line real antique video...you can compaire Baird with Jenkins. I saw a portable video player...it was a 'Victrola' with a neon/ground glass screen that played low res from a 78 rpm disc. I'm so old....that I remember Roberts offered a quarter inch tape deck that could record as much as fifteen minutes of B/W video. I'm not old enough to remember Tesla contacting Mars from Wrong Island. There was someone in the Canal Street vicinity trhirty years ago offering a kit slow scan receiver....like what Robot research used to make with the long persistance orange phosphor tube. I even have a book somwhere on how to build a flying spot scanner....3 inch P1 tube, slide holder and photocell. Lets not get into Pilot 3" electrostatic TV sets which sold for $99 in 1949...my father was the manager for the Savarin Restaraunt chain and got the real RCA in 1952. CI Peter
You would have loved the CBS color system. :)
Was 3600 0r 7200 RPM disc with six crooked filters of the three primary colors. Screen size limited to one half diameter of the spinning disc.
System used for medical TV and the first color television from space...camera needed a very small color disc in front of the half inch vidcon tube. Several seconds to process before network color video transmission. I'm old enough to remember the screen notations but never saw CBS color in action....just the Sarnoff peacock.
Here's an amusement for ya on it:
http://www.novia.net/~ereitan/Color_Sys_CBS.html
I took a read through that. What I can't figure out is why CBS wrecked the existing colour sets which also functioned perfectly well as black and white, forcing their owners to buy a new black and white TV or forgo television entirely before the new colour system came out.
It's called POLITICS ... yes, even if you're a private company, cheese off the politicos and you go the way of Netscape. :(
Was the TTC planning to expand the subway ("really!") to the South Pole? :)
--Mark
The subway only goes as far as McMurdo Base. You have to take a GO Transit commuter train from there to reach the pole.
:)
Mark
I was looking at the BMT Standars photo and was these Standars that looked like they hit the block on the tracks behind the 86st station on the N line. The photo names are BMTB2390_19770724A,B & C. There a later dated photo with this same car so I guess that they fix it up after this happen. I wish that I could like the photo hear but I don't know how.
Thank for any infomation.
Robert
IIRC that wasn't a fantrip. Those BMT standards were supposed to be moved and the yard motorman who did the honors was unfamiliar with AMUE braking. By the time the brakes started to grab, it was too late. BONK!!!
Then the capaction are wrong and it sould be brought to the action of David.
Robert
Until the 80's the TA had two sets of Standards that did fan trips.
Mike Hanna has saved one set in CY (2390, 2391, 2392). One of the second set is at Branford 2775. I understand we grabed enough parts from the other "A" unit to make 2775 a double ender.
In other words, restore it to as-delivered A unit characteristics.
Hmmm, I was never told that part. Would make it correct for a part of it's life ... sometimes museum's get lucky.
Now if we can only get started on her before she's a pile of dust :-(
BTW, recently saw the CI three, looks like most of the body work on the outside is done. They keep making progress there inch by inch.
I was on a Queens-Bound A Train Today that was late, it was supposed to be there at 8:07 am, but got to Nostrand ave. at 8:13 am and when the Train finally arrived, the second car was empty but all the other cars were packed, my Guess is that the doors didn't respond to the conductor's controls or it was just plain broken, Isn't a Train that has a all 4 doors broken suposed to be out of service?
-AcelaExpress2005
No, the train remains in sevice untill it get the the end of the line. The car might have had a windows broken so would have been unsafe for anyone to ride in it. All the door were keyed closed by those locks on the side of the doors. If is a window or someting else that can'tbe fixed by the station RCI then it is sent to the yerd to be fixed.
Robert
Well, from my viewing it didn't look nothing was wrong with the car at all, because I was in the 3rd Car from the front and I was looking out the storm door into the second car and all I didn't see anything worng with it, If I knew the trick to get through the locked doors, I would have went through and just chilled there until my stop.
-AcelaExpress2005
If you did that and a cop see you, you could get ticked. Sometime the glass is complety out of the frame so you might not see it, or there could have been some bodly fluid in the car like piss or blood. This would also take the car out of costermer sevice. I had I few of my G train the A car out becouse of this. Try tell people that the why the car not opening up when it's the first car of a four car train, they get mighty pissed off about it, and since I was doing OPTO with some of these train I got it all.
Robert
You didn't see anything wrong with the car, therefore nothing
could possibly be wrong with it, eh?
That's called an "isolated car". There must have been some
unsafe condition within the car. Unlike LIRR, NYCT does not
isolate cars just for the hell of it.
Well when I meant nothing was wrong, I mean I didn't see anything inside that look out of the ordinary, besides the doors not opening. That's my first time seeing a isolated car, but it caused the train to be packed because it was late and that car was isolated.
-AcelaExpress2005
The cars must have had a hanging guard light, which mean the TO can't get indication (doors closed and locked-lets move) on his air gauage. The TO must have tried to reset the door, but was unable to. The best thing he may have done was to cut out the door motors on the whole car. The doors on the affected car were closed but not locked. The TO could have taken the whole train out of service right here or isolate the car and keep on going in passenger service.
If there was a hanging guard light then cutting out all the doors still might not help the light. At this point then Command will tell you to take the train out of service and meet up with an RCI down the road. They reather you do this that back up the rest of the train druing Rush Hour. Also even if all the door are keyed closed and there is still a gard light on, then the doors are not lock and the T/O nor the C/R will get indication, and the train would have to be moved by the Door Bypass button. So this car might have had something that could not be seen inside just by looking thought the windows.
Robert
Thanks for the info as I'm not a member of a operating crew.
If the conductor can not get indication, are you even allowed
to stay in service? I think you can move the train on bypass
to the nearest station and then you must discharge.
Sometimes it's because the car needs "Cleanup in aisle one!"
The car you saw was an isolated car, where all doors, end and side, are locked out (cut out) and prevented from opening, and keeps customers from entering it. It was probably due to serious vandalism (broken glass), or due to waste (urine, "excrement", an "eskimo pie", etc.) (Note** "eskimo pie" is what we call throw up!!). This train would not be taken out of service, it would run in service to the end terminal, where RCIs or cleaners (depending on what the problem in the car is to warrant it to be isolated) can tend to the problem. I remember one time being on an A train with R-38s, where the car was isolated during the morning rush due to (get this!!) a very stinky bum sleeping in it. The whole car was isolated and locked down, with only the bum being the only one in the car by himself!! I and the customers found this quite hilarious!! Wonder how they dealt with that one when the train got uptown to 207??
What happened when the bum got to his stop?
If Robert Moses, in his guise as City Construction Coordinator, were alive today, what would he be pushing for at Ground Zero? Highway overpasses? More skyscrapers?
Just wondering.
Knowing Moses, a massive interchange, or housing projects. But Moses would have no say in that. He was for the City of New York, not the Port Authority. It wouldn't surprise me if he did take over the Port one time in his life. Thank God that didn't happen. If he did, PATH would be no more. He hated railroads and subways.
Actually, he did have a working agreement with the Port Authority in the late 1950's. I have no doubt that he could have made the PA bend to his will at any time.
Moses made a "deal" with the PA to use large sums of the PA's money to build the Verrazano Bridge.
--Mark
He would build something monumental. It would incorporate office space and parkland and probably have dedicated auto access directly off the West Side Highway.
What he wouldn't do is have it look anything like the original WTC. He always had to make his mark on everything.
Just going by his history. It's a pretty good guess.
Assuming he wouldn't want to build a 110-story highway, odds are he would favor something like a new Hudson River bridge connecting up the New Jersey Turnpike (two lanes in each direction for the Holland Tunnel are way less than he would care for).
The WTC site would serve as the new Hudson River Bridge's approach -- plenty of room to put in the anchorages, as soon as the World Finanical Center is torn down -- and then there would be a flying junction three-level interchange at Church Street, with one route going to the Battery Tunnel while the other headed east on the new improved Lower Manhattan expressway (rip down all those buildings between Fulton and John streets and put in an elevated highway) which would connect up with the Brooklyn Bridge and the FDR drive. Oh, and probably one interchange at Broadway as well for local downtown traffic. I know the church would get in the way, but Bob would have a solution for that as well, I'm sure...
I know the church would get in the way, but Bob would have a solution for that as well, I'm sure...
He'd follow Colonel Nasser's example... move it brick by brick out of the way. Staten Island?
Option X for Rebuilding Ground Zero, as Proposed by Robert Moses:
"Where the [World Trade Center] once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive hotels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food, tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see! My God, it'll be beautiful!"
>>> Where the [World Trade Center] once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive hotels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food, tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see <<<
Definitely not Moses' style. You do not see those things on his parkways, bridges and expressways.
Tom
Maybe. But that was a quite from a movie.
Here's some trivia - what movie is it from and who said it (the character's name)?
Moses probably would have been planning a Cross Manhattan Expressway linking the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel with the Holland Tunnel and the Manhattan Bridge.
That's "Who Framed Roger Rabbit", the Christopher Lloyd character(?) talking about turning the trolley into a freeway.
But he was really talking about Tonnelle Avenue in Jersey City (except it doesn't have enough billboards).
Character's name is Judge Doom.
How bout that little dialogue early on when Eddie Valiant jumps on the back of a Red Car?
Kid: Hey Mister, don't you have a car?
Eddie: Who needs a car in LA, you have the best public transit system in the world here!
That doesn't sound like Moses at all. Aesthetics were his biggest thing, even if it was at the expense of people.
I'd say: Jones Beach #2!!!
Remember that Robert Moses built Lincoln Center, so he wasn't just about highways.
The layout of Lincoln Center is similar to that of the WTC, only shorter buildings and different use. Both consist of buildings surrounding an elevated plaza with a fountain at its center.
[Remember that Robert Moses built Lincoln Center, so he wasn't just about highways.]
And what does Lincoln Center have in common with every Robert Moses highway project (within the five boroughs, anyway)? One thing: He chose the location specifically to maximize the number of poor minorities who would be evicted to accommodate it.
And all for the better. The Upper West Side has improved many times over since the construction of the Lincoln Center. This is one of those urban renewal projects that actually WORKED.
[The Upper West Side has improved many times over since the construction of the Lincoln Center.]
Maybe, but that wasn't R.M.'s motive. He specifically wanted to maximize the number of poor minorities who would be evicted. That, in turn, maximized the amount of money available for "relocation allowances" - which, of course, were never disbursed.
As I mentioned earlier, though: if he were still alive, he wouldn't be interested in the WTC site, because no poor minorities live there.
This is obviously not true, since poor minorities didn't live where all of his projects were placed.
What about the Henry Hudson Parkway in Riverdale? What about the LIE in Old Westbury? What about all the roads he built through what was then unoccupied territory?
I think the Palisades Parkway was another of his creations. I thank him for that. But a little known fact, his dream roadway, which he never got to complete all the way, was the Sheridan Expwy in the Bronx. The Sheridan was originally to run up to Westchester County, but the residents of the Bronx had beaten him at his game, along with Bronx Zoo supporters. Thats why the Sheridan to this day, only runs as far as E 177 St-East Tremont Ave.
NOT TRUE.
The Sheridan Expressway was only to extend to Baychester Avenue and I-95.
The Upper West Side has improved many times over since the construction of the Lincoln Center.
Maybe, but that wasn't R.M.'s motive. He specifically wanted to maximize the number of poor minorities who would be evicted. That, in turn, maximized the amount of money available for "relocation allowances" - which, of course, were never disbursed.
Was the area now occupied by Lincoln Center even a minority neighborhood in the early 1960's?
Was the area now occupied by Lincoln Center even a minority neighborhood in the early 1960's?
Yes... the area was called San Juan Hill and was home to poor Blacks, Puerto Ricans, and some remaining Irish. The urban renewal area, after being completely vacated, was used as the set for the movie version of West Side Story immediately before demolition.
Not much more than, maybe, a statue of himself, and maybe his preferred mode of transportation - the limousine.
Aside from that, he wouldn't be all that interested, since the "ground Zero" area doesn't have a heavy concentration of low-income minorities to evict.
Parking Lot. Money to go directly into Triboro coffers without supervision by the voting public.
New TBTA Headquarters with unparalleled views to the Statue of Liberty, where the new Liberty Expressway Bridge over NY Harbour will have its own exit ramp. Surrounded by trees of course.
--Mark
Let's see.... a 8 lane highway across lower manhattan with bridges to staten & island brooklyn. Buildings in the way? Knockem down emminent domain.
1. A bus terminal
2. a new sky scraper
3. high volume commercial helicopter service since you couldn't put a real airport there unless you build a runway going into the HUdsen.
4. convert the PATH tubes into highway traffic tunnels like the Lincon and Holland tunnels.
Talking of Robert Moses, don't you guys think he would have seen the light? In his days, transit was out of fashion and highways were the way of the future. So he constructed highways. If he was really the visionary leader people in the highway age saw him as, then given that now it is the age of transit, don't you think he would be pushing the transit schemes?
I think if Robert Moses were alive today, he would have built the 2nd Avenue Subway, many other lines, and high speed commuter rails serving affluent suburbs that went beyond just Grand Central, but direct to the Southern tip of Manhattan. He will probably spend more money on Commuter Rails than on subways, but I think he would also recognize that the downtown has become a place for hip yuppies to live and he will beef up transit service (or even personal rapid transits) designed to serve these rich yuppies at the public expense.
Robert Moses may be a railfan's dream, if he were alive today.
AEM7
I seriously doubt that. Moses caused area railroads to go bankrupt and the subway system to fall into disrepair. But the tables turned. His highways are in crappy conditions, always needing repairs and our beloved railroads and subways are in tip top shape.
But the tables turned. His highways are in crappy conditions, always needing repairs and our beloved railroads and subways are in tip top shape.
That's the whole point. Tables turned. Robert Moses, if he were smart, would turn with the tables. I don't think he was particularly a highway fan; he simply sought to improve the quality of life for a segment of New Yorkans (i.e. the more affluent segment) at public expense. He also had an ego, so he did everything to last forever, just like the Pennsylvania did.
His policy was arguably not a bad one. He ruled with an iron fist, and made sure that people who paid the most in taxes got the most in services in return. From my understanding of his actions, they were not generally corrupt, unlike many politicians/leaders today. He was very customer responsive, and his customer was the suburban rich and the yuppies. He ensured that the projects were DONE, and razed NIMBYs like they were little trees standing in the path of his infrastructure machine.
Given the fact that most suburban rich now sees Commuter Rail as a good thing (esp. with Metro-North's bar cars) and most urban yuppies like transit, I believe he will continue to be responsive and overbuild transit and commuter rail on a scale never seen before. Now, I never said what he did or what he would do is cost effective or wise, but it was done on time and on budget, unlike today's cost effective transit schemes that overrun up to 100% on both costs and schedule. Most of these overruns are caused by NIMBYs.
Isn't a Robert Moses who build transits what railfans would love to see? Someone who has the guts to tell the NIMBYs to f**k off, extend every line imaginable in every direction, and build infrastructure much more than necessary to cater for present needs? If he were alive today, I believe he would say that transits are the way of the future, just like he believed that highways were the way of the future in the 60's.
AEM7
In that sense, AEM7, you're right. I just fear he'd build some cr@ppy light rail line like there is in Birmingham.
I'm alittle new to this here. Define the term "NIMBY" for me please. I see it posted a lot but never knew its meaning.
Thanks.
Not In My Back Yard
In other words, someone who isn't opposed per se to something being done, they just don't want it where they live and/or work.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks dude.
Robert grew up in a age where the cars were in small numbers. He saw them as the future since he saw that they were underutilized. But he never reliazed that there would be traffic jams and conjestion. There wern't enough cars on the road to do that.
He saw trains as the enymy; sardine conditions, needing repair, dirty, dusty, gum on ground, always late, high volume, look like a ancient furnace, rusty, graffeti, beaten up, distroyed too many neighborhoods (or so he thought), dangerous, moraless people (ghetto), moving the gheto into rich neiborhood (helped in block busting), never go where you want them to go, not enough service, do I NEED to contiune???
He saw trains nowadays as we see cars. He wanted to fix the problem but he was a visionary who didn't think ahead. He was the kind of person to design concept cars, not cars that are sold retail. He saw world of cars and clean, bright, friendly, high volume, ecomilcal projects. He tryed to turn NYC into his personal project. He did really care about NYC; in his own screwed-up way. I do feel sorry that he never got to see his dream come true, but who would want to live in a concept city?
Isn't a Robert Moses who build transits what railfans would love to see? Someone who has the guts to tell the NIMBYs to f**k off, extend every line imaginable in every direction, and build infrastructure much more than necessary to cater for present needs? If he were alive today, I believe he would say that transits are the way of the future, just like he believed that highways were the way of the future in the 60's.
It is much easier today for determined opponents to stop projects through the courts. A present-day Robert Moses would never be able to accomplish anything close to what his predecessor managed, strong personality or not.
A large statue of himself in the midst of a shoehorned interchange for a Lower Manhattan Expressway with the West Side Highway. The interchange will be overcrowded on the Opening Day.
Several adjoining, Lower Manhattan neighbourhoods will also be demolished.
All in jest, of course,
Matt
Who is Robert Moses? What did he do? Why is his name so famous(or infamous) around here?
He was a major person as he devloped many of the highways and biways around NYC. Not to mention several parks as well.
People hated him for ruining entire neighborhoods and prasied him for expanding the horizon for auto traffic.
Look at him as you will, but he is an enigma in my opinion.
he messed up E 176 and E 177 Street
He built that bridge from Brooklyn to Staten Island with no provision for rail transit.
I was talking about the Cross Bronx Expressway, at least E 177 Street still exists as a two way street right by the Sheridan Expressway
He built that bridge from Brooklyn to Staten Island with no provision for rail transit.
Note, however, that building the Verranzano with a grade low enough for rail transit would have required monstrously long approaches, especially on the Brooklyn side. I've heard estimates that the Brooklyn approach would have had to be more than one mile in length.
Or even walkways!
There's provision for that, though. Just no actual walkways.
With the success of my "Jamaica Line Q & A" post, I decided on putting on a little Transit Trivia game. These questions can be answered either by railroad employees or true transit buffs like myself. That's how technical I can make it. I'll even throw in some movie stuff, all related to trains. ENJOY fellow Subtalkers.
1) What is the name of the first movable bridge from Hoboken on NJ Transit's "Bergen County Line"?
2) Which station on the LIRR was destroyed by wild fires during the mid 90's?
3) Name the junction between the Erie Main Line and Graham Line at Harriman Station on the Port Jervis Line.
4) What railcar was supposed to be the successor of the Budd RDC but never did?
5) Which locomotive did the ALP 44 replace on NJ Transit's electrified lines?
6) In the movie "New Jack City", on which Metro-North line did Chris Rock and Ice T almost got run over by two passing trains?
7) In the movie "Beat Street", what station did Ramo die at?
8) In the movie "Fresh", which rail yard did the kid keep his can of money hidden?
9) What does O.P.T.O. stand for?
10) Which agencies operated commuter rail service in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut before ConRail took over?
Bonus) Which subway car was considered an orphan to the subway system?
The answers will be posted at 8:00 EDT
GOOD LUCK
I guess no one wanted to play. But anyway, here are the answers:
1) HX Draw
2) Center Moriches
3) CP Newburg or Newburg Junction
4) SPV2000 Rail Car
5) E60CP Electrics aquired from AMTRAK
6) Harlem Line
7) Hoyt-Schemehorn Sts
8) West end of Sunnyside Yard near Hunters Point
9) One Person Train Operation
10) Penn Central and Erie-Lackawanna
Bonus) R11
I hope at least you guys had a look. But thanks for trying if you did.
PEACE
Brooklyn
1). HX
2). Center Moriches (at first I had thought Quogue, but the fire wasn't that far out I recall)
3). (do not remember) >:-(
4). SPVs
5). E60CP
6). Harlem Line somewhere bet. Melrose and Fordham
7). Hoyt-Schermerhorn (A1 track I believe, s/b side)
8). Sunnyside
9). One Person Train Operation (only in time to be succeeded by ZPTO.....ZERO Person Train Operation!! lol)
10). Erie Lackawanna, Penn Central, CNJ (I think....don't remember for sure)
Bonus: Budd R-11/34
Are you sure about Center Moriches burning? I don't ever remember that happening. When did that happen?
The Long Island wild fires occured around the time period of '95 and '96. Just east of Lake Ronkonkoma and to the south.
I thought all those fires were further east around Westhampton, or is that a different fire I am thinking of?
could be
"In the movie "Beat Street", what station did Ramo die at?"
My goodness. I'd long since forgotten Beat Street.
I'm surprised you didn't have any references to that 1982 classic -- "Wild Style".
CG
Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street (A,C,G)
#4 Budd SPV
#10 Pennsylvania RY, Penn Central, Erie Lackawanna, New Haven RY, Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Ry, Central Railroad of New Jersey, New York Central.
The three inner stations - Arlington, Benson, and Rowe - of the Boonton Line close Friday night Sept 20 as part of the Montclair Connection project completion.
If I ride a Boonton Train from Hoboken to Rowe or Benson and wish to return to NY, what option is best:
(1) Walk, bus, or cab to new Newark City Subway terminal in Bloomfield?
(2) Walk ride, or cab to old Montclair Branch Bloomfield Station?
(3) Or something I did not mention?
Any advise would be welcome. Thank you in advance.
Take a cab to Bay Street on the Montclair line or cab it to the City Subway in Bloomfield. But my best advice is stay on the train to Dover and catch a Mid-Town Direct train to New York.
If he's going past Benson may as well go to Walnut St. and take the train back (there is reverse-peak service on the lower part of the line).
Thanks. That is exactly what I did tonight. Worked out fine. Only (very minor) problem was a one hour+ wait at Newark Broad Street for the next connecting train back to NY Penn Station - so I just stayed on to Hoboken and took PATH.
It's a fairly uncomplicated and short (15 minutes at most) walk from the Benson Street station in Glen Ridge to the Glen Ridge station on the Montclair branch.
CG
The Montclair Connection opens Sept 30. Does that mean there's 10 days with no rail service at all on the Boonton Line?
Well, there's always no service on the line on weekends so it's really only 5 days.
During the business week that the stations are closed, Boonton line trains will run over the Montclair connection but not into Penn Station. The track connection will be completed, but apparently the juice will not yet be flowing through the catenary.
They have a one week only schedule posted at the njtransit.com website.
CG
They have a one week only schedule posted at the njtransit.com website.
Montclair-Boonton Line Service Advisory
If you want to get off at Benson St, walk literally "down" Benson - it is on a hill and you want to walk down to Broad St, maybe a 5 minute walk. Cross Broad St and catch the DeCamp line #33 or 88 back into the city. Or if you want to get a taste of Bloomfield first, be sure to stop in the newly renovated (and tacky) Nevada Diner, or Italian food at Angelo's. Then pop in Brittany's comic shop/Triple S music repair shop and say hi to Sean, Brendan, RJ, and/or Julian for me.
Ok maybe its been posted before (im not on here often). But I was just wondering who else from here is coming to the trip slated for Sunday. Or are people just doing their own thing? I got my ticket. I just need another 128 MB Memory Stick for my camera and I should be fine :)
Anthony
ill be there
FYI, They are still putting the last dabs of paint on the Steeple Cab to make her look feal fine for the trip.
So that means the Triplexes will not run under their own power on this fantrip, I presume.
Well see, I'm sure in the worse case, they will "fake" it.
I'm going to have to spell check this stuff some day ... I ment REAL fine ...
I expect to be there.
I'll be there bright and early......Got my ticket about 3 weeks ago.
I will be there, too! Does anyone know the specific GO for the trip?
--Mark
I will be there.
Peter the Pole
I'll be there.
Dan
I take it the train will be coming in from the Ave X shops. So the pickup point is on the northbound platform?
I'll be there. I've got 5GB of flash for my camera, so I'll be in fine shape 8-)
Someday hopefully I'll be in the city when one of these fantrips comes up. Give my regards to those gentle behemoths in the meantime.
me too
My friend from NJT suprised me with one of the NJT Hoboken Festival Posters. For those who haven't seen it - it's really well done and colorful. Heading out soon to look for a frame so I can hang it in my trainroom.
BTW: I also got a virgin copy of the exterior Car Decal LIRR used for the Golf Tourney at Bethpage. Mounted on 1/2" ply and hanging on the wall next to Subway Series Mets and yankee Logos from the 4 & 7 trains.
You are quite the collector. Hope to see you at the festival on the 29. I'll definitly be there. I bought a subway throttle last year and sort of built an imitation motormans' cab in my bedroom. Had to make my own brake valve, brake handle and reverser key. Don't worry, it won't work on actual subway trains. I hope this year, they have a GE controller, similar to R62A and R68 controllers.
Did he steal the poster from a train? I used to do that, but on my way home AFTER the Festival was over. I have posters from four of the Festivals at home. The earliest one being maybe 11. The sad part is that I know I had older ones that must have gotten thrown away over the years.
Hahahaha. No, he stole it before anyone had a chance to install it on a train.
Sometimes the Transit Museum gets this kind of stuff & offers them as a enticement for you to buy $30 worth of stuff from them ... got my history of MetroCards that way.
So, if you're planning on buying a book or two ask what they'll GIVE you if you spend a little more.
today after goinjg around in cirlces from the 42nd street MTA build.
then around and around 2 i think 320 j street b,klin....etc...U know!
then finally 130 livingston st to speak in the lobby phone only to
a mr william velaridi, who tole me the MTA NYC subway does not give
permits 2 ANYONE to shot photography / video in the subway system!!
told me if anyone caught with any thing like shooting a video or taking pictures / video camera will be put under da jail !! ..no lol.
they will use ...HAND CUFFS IMPOUND ALL OF THE EQUIPMENT USED
now i keep on seeing pics showing up on this and other sites so I have
not heard anything about any subtalker / photographer being arrested
for taking pictures / video hell most operators and transit poliuce
told me just to go ahead dont use a flash and do it anyway !!
do they mess with mark fienmann when he shoots video ??/
how about you ??
and what should i do ? i value your advice the lirr says ok !!
thankz if you can help i only have 2 1/2 more weeks 2 go !!
i will talk to any subtalker who e mails me thankz !!
salaamallah ........
Dude, screw what the MTA says at their big fancy office. Go out, have fun, take pictures, no tripods or flashes though. If a cop gives you grief say that it's legal to take pictures without flash or tripods or any external equipment.
yea ! & remember 2 not stay in any ONE PLACE too long !!
it was the # 7 line supervisor who approached me
( wearing plain clothes ) although he advised me to not take photos
he did say he was not going to REPORT ME or have me arrested !!!
this whole thing really teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees !!!
me off !! ( thankz for your response ) !!!
dats EXACT what i am going 2 do anyway !!!
thankz
Railfan photography has always been a matter that you can do anything so long as noone objects, and if someone does object, you can usually just move on. That still applies today, except that I would expect to get static with video equipment, or if you are using the generally prohibited flash or going in non-public areas or getting in they of traffic.
When I was with a video crew before 9/11/01 they had permits up the wazoo but were still not permitted in non-public areas and they didn't use any artificial light.
I think they are simply CYA. I see two possibilities.
1. Are any of your pictures published in print or on the web in non-self-published media? You may be able to get a press pass from NYPD as a member of the working press.
2. If they gave you the denial in writing, have an attorney review it and speak to them. If they are forced to justify their action with an attorney watching, they might listen to reason.
Maybe both
THANK YOU ..........guess i am going 2 jail anyway !!!
I don't know Mr. Velardi. However, I can say with absolute certainty that a permit will not be issued because none is needed. Photography, including videography, is legal in the New York City subway system as long as it is for PERSONAL USE and the photographer does not use a tripod, an artificial light source (flash, etc.), a portable power source (like a large battery), or NYCT's power.
David
thts what i thought ! oh well go do it today ( again ) ..!!
thats what i thought ! oh well go do it today ( again ) ..!!
i think they are ( excuse me ) ....full of sh______t!!!
No offense is intended but aren't you overlooking the obvious.
Assuming you did identify yourself to Mr. Vivialdi I would say your name may have been a factor. IIRC this was discussed in earlier threads.
While everyone of us here will agree that it shouldn't be a factor you are going to have to accept the fact that under the current circumstances that official agencies as well as others are going to react to name, nationality, ethnic background, etc etc.
It may not be right but it will be happening for a while.
Keep taking pictures, make sure you have copies of the MTA's photograhy rules (posted here a number of times) with you, don't do anything that an overzealous individual, official or civilian might construe as suspicous (the mind boggles at this one). Take names if necessary though be calm about it. I find nothing aggravates a situation more when you tell someone they are wrong (and prove it) and it is done in a heated conversation.
I also recommend that you when you get home write a letter of complaint to Peter Kalikow, the MTA Chairman advising him of this situation (included names, dates, times of day). IIRC you work for a transit agency in Los Angeles. It might have more value/impact if it came from someone in your agency. They tend to pay more attention to correspondance that comes that way.
Have fun the rest of your stay in NYC. Will you be on this Sundays Fantrip?
you said ... & i agree ..
I also recommend that you when you get home write a letter of complaint to Peter Kalikow, the MTA Chairman advising him of this situation (included names, dates, times of day). IIRC you work for a transit agency in Los Angeles. It might have more value/impact if it came from someone in your agency. They tend to pay more attention to correspondance that comes that way.
Have fun the rest of your stay in NYC. Will you be on this Sundays Fantrip?
thankz yes i do have plans to do this !!
met omeone on the W a very nice man who gave me the flyer !!
i spoke to mr varlidi in a most respectful manner
he has been very RUDE and dumped me off asap !!!!!!!!
some folks are very vicious ( got em in my family ) ....
today i whent right back 2 the # 7 shot it to hell !!!\
fired off tons of shots all over da place !!!
so were a lot of other folks too !!1
Try this link and search for the rule about ancillary equipment, print it out and carry it with you.
http://www.tmk.com/nycrr/
do they mess with mark fienmann when he shoots video ??
Well, the big doberman I take wih me usually keeps everybody away :)
Seriously, when I go, it's only me and my camera. I think you take additional stuff with you when you go and that could look suspicious. At least you infer that in some of your prior posts a while back.
I am also not taking as much cab view video as I used to. Part of that is also because of the more widespread use of full width cabs, though I am patiently awaiting an R-32 on the F that I can shoot through. More of the video I am taking is being done from points "off the property"; that is, from a street, or park, or some point that has zero to do with transit. I think this is more because I'm trying to get things that are different from what I already have than it is a security concern. I'm actually liking this "challenge". I'll probably, at some point in the future when I get the digital camcorder I "really" want (suggestions welcome), go back and revisit areas that I've already been to.
Throughout this past year, I, too, have been asked by police what I am doing, and I tell them "I have an interest in trains and I am railfanning today", and then they smile at me (as if to say "weird") and gently tell me that "it's not legal" or "I really shouldn't be doing that". Rather than show them the by-laws and educate them that it really is legal, usually I just say thank you and then go somewhere else. I have also had other officers come up to me to see what I am doing, and they have said not a word to me, and went on their business.
And I do carry the "by-laws" with me now whenever I go taking video. I wouldn't leave home without it.
Interesting that the LIRR says to you that it's OK ... everytime I go try to video the LIRR, I usually get stopped by someone adamant that I'm violating some important statute and thid person gets bent out of shape ....
--Mark
I reckon with Mark there...
The lesser windows available today are
surely a downer, but there are still plenty
other vantage points to shoot at/from.
Mad glad I did the 1 when the Livonia cars were on.
i changed my clothes & shot the #7 anyway ( no flash )
bunny hopped from station 2 station in a uneven matter !!!
lol !!
no lights on the redbirds signs and no marker lights !!
i agrre with most of the spirit of your post ...
...it sems that the spirit & life here that once was is fading
.last time i ws heare i was on a roll but this time evem i dont feel
the energy i used to !! kinda' like the air let out of the tire!
& somehow with the 2 weeks i have left i will give this another try...
( sigh ) ...
with the r-142s & the railfan window gone & it dissapearing almost
evrywhere, shooting a railfan video here is almost a lost art !!
really a big shame this once joy is almost gone forever !!
i think taking the still photos is wht keeed of the folks at the #7
the most i suppose..
sorry 2 hear you have lost the spirit in shooting videos there should
be more folks doing this here and in ll of the cities !!
i dont know if they harrassed the other folkz i saw shooting !!??
i have the insie connections on the few rail lines we have on da'
west coast ...
the metro north was ready to give me a permit to shoot too !!
the lirr ignored me big time like i was not there at all !!
the subway ?? one transit police said as long as i dont use flash,
please go back to the long island railroad sometime in the future,
give the lirr another try !! thankz .......salaamallah
You should reconsider, and maybe this time try for an "A" - there are more railfan-friendly R32 on the "A" than there have been lately.
And it's a nice express run too.
Have you done the Brighton Express (slant-Q) from both directions yet?
wayne
in fact about it i do plan to try the A train tomorrow from the hempstead bus station to far rockway then star there
i did get the Q before some night shots as well enjoyed it much !!
however need to re-shoot this again
hopefully on sunday get a ride on the D types ............
thankz
sorry last post was spelled wrong !!
corrected it however the mispelled post posted !!
omg !
in fact about it i do plan to try the A train tomorrow from the hempstead bus station to far rockway then start there
i do hope i dont get stopped or prevented from shooting a video..
i did get the Q before some night shots as well enjoyed it much !!
however need to re-shoot this again
hopefully on sunday get a ride on the D types ............
thankz
I wouldn't say I "lost my spirit"; far from it; there's more to the railfan video than just the cab view!
--Mark
trains just going by stations are nice but not enough
A couple of people have asked recently exactly what did I send to the MTA about re-routes when the Manny B. reopens. Sorry it took a while to get back to you, I've been pretty busy. Some of you have seen these proposals before:
To whom it may concern;
I feel that the MTA has done a pretty good job with subway routes up to this point. Yes, the E is still overcrowded, the V is underutilized and the Lexington Av-53 Street Station is a nightmare during rush hours, but at least the F isn’t as crowded as it was in years past. When the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens in 2004 (?), I believe that there is a plan which would help not only improve service for Queens Blvd riders, but service for passengers in all 5 NYC boroughs.
Here is a hypothetical routing plan that I think could work when the Manhattan Bridge fully reopens. This plan assumes that the MTA orders enough R-143's, a repaired Culver Tower and the replacement of one northbound local to express switch on the Culver south of Kings Hwy. Rush Hours are weekdays 6:30-9:30 AM and 3:30-8 PM. Late nights are 12 AM-6AM. If a subway line is not mentioned, then I'm proposing no service change to that line:
A: Operates between 207 Street and Far Rockaway only. A runs via 8 Ave/Central Park Express and Fulton Express. The A operates at all times. Late nights, A runs local between 168 and Euclid. This route is basically today's A to Far Rockaway. Rush hours some A trains operate between 207 Street and Rockaway Park (AM rush to Manhattan, PM rush from Manhattan).
B: Operates between 168 Street and Coney Island. B runs via Central Park West Local, 6 Ave Express and West End Express. In Brooklyn, B runs express between Pacific and 36. It also skips DeKalb. Rush hours, B runs express between 9th Ave and Bay Pkwy to Manhattan (AM rush) and from Manhattan (PM rush). Other times B makes all stops south of 9th Ave. Operates all times except late nights, when it would be a shuttle between 36 and CI.
C: Operates between Bedford Park Blvd and Lefferts Blvd via Concourse Local, 8th Ave/Central Park Express and Fulton Express. C runs express from 145 Street to Euclid Ave. Operates all times except nights, when it would be a shuttle between Lefferts Blvd and Euclid Ave. The C would have 12 minute headways at best during non-rush hours.
D: Operates between 205 Street and Coney Island via Concourse Express, 6th Ave/Central Park Express and Brighton Local. D runs express between Fordham Rd and 145th Street to Manhattan (AM rush), from Manhattan (PM rush). Other times local in the Bronx. D operates at all times. Late nights D runs local from 145-59 Street and express between 34 and West 4th.
E: Operates between Jamaica Center and WTC. Only difference from current route; E express between 71 Ave and Queens Plaza. It runs local east of 71 Ave. Late nights; E makes all stops in Queens.
F: Operates between 179 Street and Coney Island only. F runs via Hillside Local, Queens Blvd Express, 63rd Street, 6th Ave Local and Culver Express. In Queens, F is express between 71 Ave and 21 St-Queensbridge. In Brooklyn F express between Bergen St and Church Av. Rush hours, F express between Church Av and Kings Hwy to Manhattan (AM rush) and from Manhattan (PM rush). Late nights, F makes all stops between 179 Street and Coney Island.
G: Operates between Court Square and Church Ave at all times via Crosstown Local. I would like to see the return of six 75 ft .car trains, if possible.
J: Operates between Jamaica Center and Broad Street at all times. J would no longer terminate at Chambers.
K: Operates between 168 Street and Euclid Ave. K runs via 8th Av/Central Park West Local and Fulton Local. Operates all times except nights. This is today's C route.
M: Operates between Metropolitan Ave and Broad Street via Nassau and Myrtle Local. Rush hours, M extended to Coney Island via Brighton Local. M operates at all times except late nights, when it's a shuttle between Metropolitan and Myrtle.
N: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island via Astoria Local, Broadway Express and Sea Beach Express. N operates at all times. N runs express between 57 and Canal in Manhattan, runs over the MB, skips DeKalb then proceeds express between Pacific and 59th Street Brooklyn. N then makes all stops on the Sea Beach line. Late nights N runs local (via Montague tunnel) between 57 Street Manhattan and 59 Street Brooklyn.
*A related bus service change: S53 and S79 bus routes extended northward up 4 Ave in Brooklyn from 4 Ave-86 Street to 4 Ave-59 Street. The two SI buses would make no stops between 86th and 59th Streets, terminating at 4 Ave-59 Street. Limited-stop service could be added to both of these routes.
Q: Operates between 179 Street and Brighton Beach from 6 AM-10 PM weekdays and from 9 AM-10 PM weekends. Q runs via Hillside Express, Queens Blvd Express, 63rd Street, Broadway Express and Brighton Express.
V: Operates between 71 Av and Church Avenue. V runs via Queens Blvd Local, 53rd Street, 6th Ave Local and Culver Local. V operates at all times except late nights. Rush hours, V extended to Kings Hwy making local stops between Church and Kings Hwy.
W: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and 9th Ave, Brooklyn. W runs via Astoria Local, Broadway Local, Montague Tunnel and 4th Ave/West End Local. Rush hours, W extended to Bay Pkwy, making local stops between 9th Ave and Bay Pkwy. W operates weekdays 6 AM-8 PM.
Weekend headways would be either 12 or 15 minutes depending on the line, except for the R (which would have 8 minute headways), the 4 and 5 (which would have 10 minute headways) and the 1 and 6 lines (which would have 6 minute headways). Passengers for the most part would still see their train running on weekends. They'll just have to wait a little while longer.
Advantages with this plan:
1. Offers passengers in general more express service, something which many riders (myself included) favor. It would be good for business.
2. Offers Staten Island riders another option to the Staten Island Ferry. Staten Island riders who use the subway in Brooklyn usually wind up using a 4th Ave Exp train. (A) Taking a bus directly to the N saves many of them a transfer. They would no longer have to use the R. (B) The N would also get SI riders to midtown as fast as (if not faster than) the Staten Island Ferry, where many passengers arriving in lower Manhattan have to transfer again to reach midtown.
3. The Q running as the third express on the Queens Blvd Line also brings Queens Express riders advantages. (A) It offers its riders many convenient transfers at Times Square, Union Square, and Canal Street. This is something that neither the E nor F offers. (B) It would be the only Queens Blvd route to run express in Manhattan. As we’ve seen, Queens riders favor express trains. (C) It offers to reduce crowding at Lexington Av-53rd Street. A good chunk of the passengers at this station are coming from (or going to) lower Manhattan on the Lexington Line. For them, the only way to get the Queens Blvd Express, without walking long distances, is to use two other trains. With the Q running express in Queens, these passengers can get their Queens Blvd Express at Union Square. (D) It offers Queens Blvd riders a relatively quick route into Downtown Brooklyn, particularly MetroTech. At DeKalb Ave, MetroTech is basically around the corner from the Willoughby exit. (E) The Q running express all the way to 179 would save passengers heading to Eastern Queens and Long Island several minutes. (F) It could potentially be a popular weekend/tourist option with its stops at Times Square, Herald Square, Union Square, Canal Street and on hot weekends, Brighton Beach.
4. The C running local in the Bronx but express in Manhattan would give Concourse riders two legitimate options. Many of these riders usually wind up transferring off the Concourse Local during rush hours to either the A or D. With the C (as opposed to the B) as the Concourse Local/8th Av Exp, transferring to the A would likely be unnecessary. Finally Yankee fans coming from Penn Station or Port Authority could now take the C directly to Yankee Stadium.
5. Less confusion on the 8th Avenue and Fulton Lines. Passengers heading to JFK will now know to use the A. Riders heading to Lefferts Blvd will use the C.
6. The return of the M to the Brighton Line will offer Brighton riders a direct lower Manhattan option during rush hours, something that it does not currently have.
I only hope that you’ll consider this option. I’m convinced that this plan would work.
Nice idea but I don't think you have enough cars. Also, if the K is the same as the current C, why not make the train to Lefferts the K?
M to Broad all times is not necessary. Also, the J to Broad on weekends is not totally needed either, except it provides a major transfer at Fulton.
The Q ending at 71st would cause congestion. My idea would be to make the Q the express on Hillside Avenue to 179th and running the E, F, and Q express on QB.
I also don't think a West End Express is needed, especially since it would skip so many stations on that line. It would be like the W express in Queens after 7/22, hurting more than helping. I do like the SI Ferry alternatives.
"The Q ending at 71st would cause congestion..." Exactly. But take a look at Q Exp's plan again. He has the Q going to Jamaica via Hillside Exp. That, with the Union Square transfer to the 4,5,6, is perhaps the strongest part of his plan.
YES IT IS.. But what would be the impact of reducing "E" service - which goes to an entirely different area.
N Bwy
Like I have stated when I originally posted this in February, I admit that I'm not very sure how well the E in Manhattan would hold up between 34th and Lexington-53rd Street during the rush with 5 (or maybe 6 minute) headways. I'm gambling that the Q's transfer at Union Square would get enough passengers off the E, at least in Manhattan. That's one reason why I have only the Q going express in Queens east of 71 Ave.
The E doesn't completely go to a different area from my proposed Q route. 7th Ave-53rd Street is only two blocks from 57 Street, which has an exit at 55th. Also both trains stop at 42 Street, which is technically one big station. I concede though that Penn Station is completely different from Herald Square and could be a big trouble spot.
"Like I have stated when I originally posted this in February, I admit that I'm not very sure how well the E in Manhattan would hold up between 34th and Lexington-53rd Street during the rush with 5 (or maybe 6 minute) headways. I'm gambling that the Q's transfer at Union Square would get enough passengers off the E, at least in Manhattan. That's one reason why I have only the Q going express in Queens east of 71 Ave."
The "Q" would have no effect on the "E" (maybe the F/V) since it is the train that goes to Penn Station.. (The F/V doesn't really need any relief because they are currently under compacity). And the "E" only line that covers the Westside (8th - 12 Avenue). Therefore it is obvious that the "Q" will create problems for riders using the only line (the "E") that serves the far Westside. That's why I'm so happy to hear that the #7 will be extended to the Far Westside, and a new terminal will be built at Grand Central for the LIRR.
Note: The transfer that people are making from the Eastside is for the LIRR. And once built will greatly affect the crowds seen using that station. Particularly E Riders.
Anyhow, the only place right now for the "Q" line is 57th Street until the 2nd Avenue route is completed. Other than that, keep things the way it is before you upset the people you are trying to help.
N Bwy
I thought your Q service was going to be at the partial expense of F service. Keep the E at 12 tph from Jamaica Center. Out of Hillside Av., run 9 F tph (local) and 9 Q tph (express). The F and Q service nearly the same areas in midtown. It is the Union Square transfer of the Q that bestows the benefits.
9tph for the F just doesn't cut it for Culver riders, even if the V is extended to Brooklyn. Even now at 15tph, F trains are PACKED at rush hours.
"9tph for the F just doesn't cut it for Culver riders, even if the V is extended to Brooklyn. Even now at 15tph, F trains are PACKED at rush hours."
There aren't 15 tph on the Culver line in the rush hour direction. In the morning, there are 12 tph inbound and 15 outbound (i.e., originating in Queens).
So 9 Fs plus 6 Vs in each direction is an improvement, not a reduction.
Sorry, 8 or 9 Fs plus 10 Vs, not 6. Quite an improvement.
More people would rather take the F than the V. No need for 10tph for the V. The F will be packed even more and V's will be empty. Most Culver riders are on Church Av and 7 Av which are express stops. The most used local stop would be 4 Av which doesn't even have HALF the ridership of Church Av. Not sure about south of Church Av.
I say the V should be at 6tph and the F should be at 12tph for the benefit of Culver riders. F trains are now packed between Delancey and 18 Av even at 4 minute intervals. Starting at 15 St/Prospect Pk, people sometimes have to wait for the next train.
I'm not an "F" rider, but cutting this service even more will just frustrate and inconvenience more people. Besides, where does the "V" come in at? I never heard about the "V" being extended to church avenue. Although that sounds like a good idea.. (only if the "G" is extended too) it won't solve the delay that the Q will cause if few F's are seen below Church Avenue.
N Bwy
I meant the extended V from the letter. More frequent Culver service is more important than another Bdwy-Qns line in my opinion. It is possible to get a seat on the R in Queens durin AM Rush but not on the Culver. Personally, I'd like to see the Q in Queens and it IS possible and WILL give an advantage to Bdwy riders, but not for the expense of less frequent F's.
"I meant the extended V from the letter. More frequent Culver service is more important than another Bdwy-Qns line in my opinion."
I agree
"It is possible to get a seat on the R in Queens durin AM Rush but not on the Culver."
The "R" isn't promoted like it should be.. (unlike the V) especially the fact that it is the only line that connects to the 4/5 express (this is key to making the "R" more successful - this is one of the reason why the "N" is crowded after Queensboro Plaza) and 6 via Queens Blvd.
"Personally, I'd like to see the Q in Queens and it IS possible and WILL give an advantage to Bdwy riders, but not for the expense of less frequent F's."
Again, If the "R" was promoted like the "V", there will be no need to spend the extra money to run the "Q" via Queens Blvd.
N Broadway Line
"I thought your Q service was going to be at the partial expense of F service. Keep the E at 12 tph from Jamaica Center. Out of Hillside Av., run 9 F tph (local) and 9 Q tph (express). The F and Q service nearly the same areas in midtown. It is the Union Square transfer of the Q that bestows the benefits."
Extending the Q to 179th Street will cause havoc throughout the subways system.. Especially the E line, because it's the only Far westside line in Manhattan that travels to Queens. The F will be affected too, because it goes to Brooklyn and people need this service at the current schedule.
Q to 57th Street FOREVER!
N Bwy
As always Harry, thanks!
"Late nights, A runs local between 168 and Euclid.?
Why stop the (A) at 168th Street late nights? what about the patrons who use stations between 168th and 207th Street late at night?
Matt
He meant running between 207st adn the Rockaways but making local stops between 168-Euclid unlike on weekdays. Q Exp never mentioned anything about the A terminating at 168
Thanks a lot, that's exactly what I meant. Maybe I should change my wording to "Late nights, A makes all stops between 207 and Far Rockaway". My original wording seems to confuse people.
Bravo! I'm glad you did that. MTA needs to hear from customers with ideas.
I am confident you will receive a response from them. Be patient, as that may take time.
You did a good thing.
You think the brains at Livingston Street TA are more alive than their country cousins down the block at BOE looking out the windows?
Of course Q will get a response....it is required by law.
'Mr. Q: Thank you very much for your interest and suggestions for the operation of the New York City Transit Authority Subway System. Your observations have been noted and will be placed under consideration by our panel of transportation experts. May we contact you in some future time? Best regards.'
The posters on this site have far more interest than qualified planners and engineers. They'll also work for peanuts. CI Peter
Now Peter let's not be unfair here.
I have a drawer full of pretty reasonable replies to my letters over the years. None are form letters.
I've also attended public hearings. And I've had two ideas actually accepted and implemented by MTA. The folks at 347 Madison let me know they were listening.
And I've had two ideas actually accepted and implemented by MTA.
What were those two ideas, Ron?
"You think the brains at Livingston Street TA are more alive than their country cousins down the block at BOE looking out the windows?"
Yes. They also have an easier job. It's much easier to schedule trains than to effectively teach a collection of kids from a tremendous range of backgrounds and advantages (or lack thereof). Also, compared to the regulatory constraints imposed on the education process, NYCT has practically a free hand in how it can run things.
"The posters on this site have far more interest than qualified planners and engineers."
Perhaps. However, us posters don't have to worry about the facts (like making sure no line has more than 30 tph, or preferably 25 tph because usually when you try to squeeze in 30 bad things happen).
We also don't have access to as complete a set of facts (such as detailed train loading measurements).
We also won't get fired (or at least demoted to a place where we can never again do any harm, or good) if we send the E, F, and Q all onto the Queens Blvd express track and the system grinds to a total halt from an excess of trains.
It's great that Q Exp sent the letter, and I don't claim that NYCT is made up of brilliant people, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that we collectively know more than them (at least on this topic).
I believe that some in the MTA know what they're doing. I only sent the letter as a suggestion. I wasn't trying to put them down. I believe that with the the resources the MTA has now, they've done a pretty good job with routes.
As for the Queens Blvd Express tracks, they're already at 30 tph. A couple less trains per hour and these trains are really overcrowded. I was thinking about dividing the 30 tph between three trains instead of two. This would give Queens riders more options while at the same time allowing other trains that share tracks with the E and F to move a little better. I was thinking about either having 12 tph E's, 9 tph F's and 9 tph Q's OR 12 tph E's, 8 tph F's and 10 tph Q's.
My apologies. My mind was on pre-2004, and I didn't see how you were going to supplement the current Es and Fs with 20 Qs per hour. 9 or 10 is feasible.
And what will happen to the displaced riders on the E and F lines on the trains that are replaced by the Q
Why are you so obsessed with the Q running on Queens Blvd.
Forget it ITS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN !!!!!
There is no way that the TA will ever reduce E and F Service
In all do respect the Q running on Queens Blvd is a dead issue
Forget about it. Before the Q ever operates on Queens Blvd it will have to have a Blizzard of snow in July
NO WAY !!!!
Thank You
He is saying that the displaced E and F riders would be on the Q trains. I think a feasibility study of some sort would have to be conducted with surveys being handed out at E and F stations in Queens and collected at stations in Manhattan.
"He is saying that the displaced E and F riders would be on the Q trains. I think a feasibility study of some sort would have to be conducted with surveys being handed out at E and F stations in Queens and collected at stations in Manhattan."
The only line that will receive the most benefit is the "R" line.. to some degree the F line.. But you have to understand, both of these line (F/R) are running below compacity.
Meanwhile, The E line will actually worsen because tph will have to be reduce in order to accomodate the Q line. And remember, the Q won't do anything for the E line because the bulk of the passengers are using this line from lexington to penn station. And, visa versa.
Right now, the "E" is probably the most important line on Queens Blvd right now.. Because it's the only line that covers an area that isn't served by any transit line from Queens. Aka 8th - 12 Avenues.
By the way, 50th, 23rd, and Spring Street is also a very popular station for the E.
N Bwy
What if the E is kept at 12tph and a new line runs 3tph from 8av-queens local via 53st?
The system works well, why change it now?
N Bwy
"The system works well, why change it now?"
True that it works well but it could be better. Besides, we're not deciding on how it should be NOW. For example, we're suggesting what happens to Culver when the Bergen Interlocking System is fixed, which is at least a year ahead of us. Besides, this is SubTalk, you think MTA listens to us? We're just talk. That's why it's called a "forum."
I wasn't refering to the Culver line... I was talking about the "Q" on Queens Blvd.
N Bwy
How many times do i hafta say? THERE IS ROOM!! 12tph for E, 12tph for f, 6tph for Q. It is ok to cut down on the F because the V will be extended to Bklyn. It is ok to cut down the E because several Q stops can be served by the Q. If not, then leave the E at 15tph and make some E's run local in Queens. 30tph is tolerable and its happeneed before at Queens Blvd when the E was at 15tph and the F was at 15tph.
"How many times do i hafta say? THERE IS ROOM!! 12tph for E, 12tph for f, 6tph for Q."
YOU ALREADY HAVE THE "R" line! All passengers have to do is transfer at Queens Plaza. No need to inconvenience anyone else.
"It is ok to cut down on the F because the V will be extended to Bklyn."
How do you know this? Did you get some inside information?
"If not, then leave the E at 15tph and make some E's run local in Queens."
This is very confusing.. and doesn't make sense.
"30tph is tolerable and its happeneed before at Queens Blvd when the E was at 15tph and the F was at 15tph."
It can't happen with all the switching involve.. Besides, passengers have the option of using the "BROADWAY" R if they want to make those connections.. The R is even better than the "Q" (if it was to run from Queen), because it has that 59th Street Lexington Avenue stop.. which you can catch the 4/5 and 6.
N Bwy
"Mr. Q: Thank you very much for your interest and suggestions for the operation of the New York City Transit Authority Subway System. Your observations have been noted and will be placed under consideration by our panel of transportation experts. May we contact you in some future time? Best regards."
You're hilarious!!!
This is, actually, one of the most well thought-out and most genius service plans I have seen!! Someone on here said the J to Broad on weekends is not necessary....I wouldn't say that, giving in my time of working the J on weekends, a good number of people had asked me at many occasions about getting to Broad Street and downtown, and getting to Fulton Street. I always have to tell them at Chambers to get the downtown 4 or 5. The J going all the way on the weekend would prove to be very convenient. I think this is the best service plan I have ever heard of. Now all you have to do is get through to the "geniuses" in the "Ivory Tower" at 370 Jay. Remember they don't always think logically and with common sense. Majority of these "geniuses" who do all this planning of services NEVER worked the road, and have NO IDEA how the show is run out here. Maybe you should consider moving to the high seat if you can think of more good plans like this one you mentioned in the letter.
Years ago, I heard that the weekend J was cut back to Canal (later extended to Chambers) for a long-term weekend construction project.
Is that correct? Well, it's been a while. Is the construction project finished yet?
(I don't care about Broad. I care about the Fulton transfers. Chambers doesn't cut it.)
My point was the service to Broad would mainly provide transfers, very few passengers would be entering or exiting those stations.
Hey, thanks for the compliment. I never understood why the MTA decided to not have at least the J stop at Fulton Street on weekends. They're a lot of transfers there and until 9/11 PATH was only a block or two away. Maybe they were trying to save money.
Les, did you get a reply and if so would you please post it here? Thanks!
"B: Operates between 168 Street and Coney Island. B runs via Central Park West Local, 6 Ave Express and West End Express. In Brooklyn, B runs express between Pacific and 36. It also skips DeKalb. Rush hours, B runs express between 9th Ave and Bay Pkwy to Manhattan (AM rush) and from Manhattan (PM rush). Other times B makes all stops south of 9th Ave. Operates all times except late nights, when it would be a shuttle between 36 and CI.
C: Operates between Bedford Park Blvd and Lefferts Blvd via Concourse Local, 8th Ave/Central Park Express and Fulton Express. C runs express from 145 Street to Euclid Ave. Operates all times except nights, when it would be a shuttle between Lefferts Blvd and Euclid Ave. The C would have 12 minute headways at best during non-rush hours."
I don't think the above would change, because the present plan works well.
"K: Operates between 168 Street and Euclid Ave. K runs via 8th Av/Central Park West Local and Fulton Local. Operates all times except nights. This is today's C route."
No reason for all this service via Central Park West.
"M: Operates between Metropolitan Ave and Broad Street via Nassau and Myrtle Local. Rush hours, M extended to Coney Island via Brighton Local. M operates at all times except late nights, when it's a shuttle between Metropolitan and Myrtle."
This was tried before, and fewer people used it.
"N: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and Coney Island via Astoria Local, Broadway Express and Sea Beach Express. N operates at all times. N runs express between 57 and Canal in Manhattan, runs over the MB, skips DeKalb then proceeds express between Pacific and 59th Street Brooklyn. N then makes all stops on the Sea Beach line. Late nights N runs local (via Montague tunnel) between 57 Street Manhattan and 59 Street Brooklyn."
An N express via Broadway can only work if the W is kept in service after the Manhattan Bridge repairs are completed.
"Q: Operates between 179 Street and Brighton Beach from 6 AM-10 PM weekdays and from 9 AM-10 PM weekends. Q runs via Hillside Express, Queens Blvd Express, 63rd Street, Broadway Express and Brighton Express."
FORGET IT! It won't work because you will have to cut into current E/F service.
"V: Operates between 71 Av and Church Avenue. V runs via Queens Blvd Local, 53rd Street, 6th Ave Local and Culver Local. V operates at all times except late nights. Rush hours, V extended to Kings Hwy making local stops between Church and Kings Hwy."
I like the idea of the V line, except, it should be a rush hour only service. Meanwhile, during the time the V isn't running the E can take up the slack of which service should be increase.
"W: Operates between Ditmars Blvd and 9th Ave, Brooklyn. W runs via Astoria Local, Broadway Local, Montague Tunnel and 4th Ave/West End Local. Rush hours, W extended to Bay Pkwy, making local stops between 9th Ave and Bay Pkwy. W operates weekdays 6 AM-8 PM."
After the B/D returns on the Manhattan Bridge, the W should become the Broadway local, dead ending at Whitehall street. It should be scheduled to run everyday - Weekdays 6AM - 10PM, Saturdays 8AM - 8AM and Sundays 10AM - 7AM. Meanwhile, During this period, the N/Q should run express. N should be express all the times except nights and the Q should only have service Weekdays 6AM - 10PM.
"3. The Q running as the third express on the Queens Blvd Line also brings Queens Express riders advantages. (A) It offers its riders many convenient transfers at Times Square, Union Square, and Canal Street. This is something that neither the E nor F offers. (B) It would be the only Queens Blvd route to run express in Manhattan. As we’ve seen, Queens riders favor express trains. (C) It offers to reduce crowding at Lexington Av-53rd Street. A good chunk of the passengers at this station are coming from (or going to) lower Manhattan on the Lexington Line. For them, the only way to get the Queens Blvd Express, without walking long distances, is to use two other trains. With the Q running express in Queens, these passengers can get their Queens Blvd Express at Union Square. (D) It offers Queens Blvd riders a relatively quick route into Downtown Brooklyn, particularly MetroTech. At DeKalb Ave, MetroTech is basically around the corner from the Willoughby exit. (E) The Q running express all the way to 179 would save passengers heading to Eastern Queens and Long Island several minutes. (F) It could potentially be a popular weekend/tourist option with its stops at Times Square, Herald Square, Union Square, Canal Street and on hot weekends, Brighton Beach."
Although I like the Q idea, there just isn't space for it.. Especially since the "E" is running to 179th during the rush hours. A better plan for the Q would be to send it up 2nd Avenue once the route is completed. Other than that, the Q is better off at 57th Street.
The C is actually better where it's at. You have to remember that before the switch, this line was having crowd problems. And one of the reason was because of the 8/60 cars it uses.
"5. Less confusion on the 8th Avenue and Fulton Lines. Passengers heading to JFK will now know to use the A. Riders heading to Lefferts Blvd will use the C."
Good idea if the community accepts the fact they will be served by a local instead of an express.. Even though the C would be more frequent.
"6. The return of the M to the Brighton Line will offer Brighton riders a direct lower Manhattan option during rush hours, something that it does not currently have."
This idea has never encourage passengers to stay on the M line.. As a matter of fact, passengers would take the D "express" and transfer to the other lines heading to lower Manhattan.. Like the N/R (the R at the time)
N Broadway Line
The best proposal that was sent by far. I like the Q, it was a thought that I always had. Hmm, R68's going to Hillside, and 2 lines running under the 63rd St. tunnel. Shorter runs like the W would have slants, M's would have R143's (R143's on Brighton I love that idea too!), an extra 8th Ave. route that once was the AA, then the K which had the worst of subway equipment back in the 80's having the worst now in R38's and giving the C R44's, and R32's along with the A, and the B would have lots of slants and going back to its old northern terminal before the swap with the C are nothing but an A+ in suggestions.
Not really about bad equipment regarding the K, the K would get R-32s, which are very reliable. The C would probably get the 44s, but would retain mostly the R-38s.
I was thinking along the same lines. Also both the A and C would both be 600 ft. long while the K would only be 480 ft. long (or 8 R-32 car-trains).
Thanks for the compliments. B having slants again??? I don't know. I've heard (and correct me if I'm wrong) that schoolkids in Brooklyn were getting so out of hand on the B that the MTA decided to switch the B to R-68A's. This was done to keep them from running between cars.
You keep harping about the Q Train running via Queens Blvd FORGET IT because it will never happen.
There is no room for any additonal Queens Blvd Express Service.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank You
-Since the V is extended to Culver, it is fair enough to cut back the F to 12tph.
-Flop the F/V 53/63.
-Make a new route, say (EE) for the heck of it that would run via 8av lcl/53st/qns lcl. Then you can cut down the E to 12tph. (EE rush hrs only)
-With the E/F as 24tph, there is sufficient room for an additional 6tph for the Q, and with the EE, there will also be sufficient TPH at 53st incl. qns exp AND local service, so the G riders still have a direct local service to Queens since the G will now NEVER run on QB tracks...=(
-The EE,R and V at Queens would be too much, so both the F and Q goto Hillside exp, EE/V goto Hillside lcl. R to 71av, E goto Jamaica Ctr.
-The Q isn't needed that badly at Queens during non-rush hrs so i say leave the Q at 57st during non-rush hours.
Queens Service
----------Rush Hrs
Express--E 12tph, F 12tph, Q 6tph
Local----EE 6tph, V 6tph, R 6tph
53rd-----E, F, EE
63rd-----Q, V
----------Non-Rush wkdays
Express--E 7.5tph, F 7.5tph, EE 6tph(for benefit of G riders)
Local----V 6tph, R 6tph, EE 6tph
53rd-----E, F
63rd-----V
----------Wkends
Express--E 7.5tph, F 7.5tph
Local----R 6tph, G 6tph (all locals to 71av)
53rd-----E, F
63rd-----V(termininates at 21st)
----------Nites
Express--E 3tph
Local----F 3tph
53rd-----E, F
63rd-----V(21st-Rockefeller shuttle)
*note: G goes to QB only during weekends
Sorry for missing your message. I thought that we agreed to disagree on this. I'm convinced that this has a chance to work, you're equally convinced that it doesn't. I guess we're in disagreement.
I'm promise to remain silent on the whole Q to Queens Blvd thing unless someone else brings it up.
Just wondering....is there room for three express lines (A,C,D) on Central Park West?
His C's replace what used to be As to Lefferts, so no more trains are running under CPW.
there is room for much more, but not the need. There IS need for 24/7 CPW local-6th ave service
Why not leave the C to its old route and make the Lefferts train the K?
PS- M not needed in Brighton. My idea would be send half the M to 95st and the other half to Coney Is/SB during rush hrs. Both lines could use an slight increase in TPH and the M can be the answer.
Personal preference. I remember when the C used to be the only train to stop in all 4 NYC subway boroughs. Plus, I always thought of the C as being a Concourse train. I wanted to return these distinctions to the C, while at the same time making it a little quicker.
As for the M, I distinctly remember it being a somewhat popular train on the Brighton during rush hours, definitely more people than it has now. On a few occasions it was actually packed. Would the M have that kind of ridership in Bay Ridge?
Dear Mr. Qexp,
You're wacko.
Sincerely,
Zman
Dear Mr. Zman,
If sending the MTA suggestions and explaining the reasoning behind these suggestions...if trying to respond to everyone else's response out of courtesy constitutes me as being "wacko", so be it. At least I'm doing something constructive.
Yours truly,
Q Exp
I think Zman was just kidding you. I'm under the strong impression that he is a dedicated worker of the TA. My guess is that he thinks you're wacko for actually thinking you'll get a serious, detailed reply from people who do the planning. Or that your service expansion is economically feasible. We'll just wait and see.....
Ok, maybe I was kidding you Q exp. But I've taken a closer look at your plan and will now comment on the negative factors on it. It's QUITE OBVIOUS that you did not take into account any budgetary needs and simply looked at it from the needs of a railfan, with blinkers on nonetheless!
*Extension of the rush hour by 2 hours (30 mins. AM/ 90 mins. PM). Obvious budget buster here. AND Bloomberg is talking about cutting the city's subsidy to the TA. I suppose the extra money shall be coming from your vast inheritance?
*2 local services at 168. Explain why there needs to be 2 locals at 168. Explain where the TA is going to get the extra funds for additional switchmen at 168, where put-ins/lay-ups for two lines are going to be stored (207 Yard is filled to a point where mainline express tracks are used for C layups), and how these trains are going to be relayed without tying up service.
*Tremendously inconveniencing riders on the West End Line. You just gave riders from 20 Av to Fort Hamilton Pkwy a local train ride to Manhattan or an extra transfer for an express train at 62 St, 9 Av or 36 St. Plus, you now have put all of them on a Broadway Local rather than a 6th Avenue Express. Oh, and did I mention the nearly 50% cut in rush hour local service with the elimination of West End M service? May I remind you how politically strong the neighborhood of Borough Park is?
*No Queens Blvd late night express service. Are you aware as to how long late night Queens Blvd. riders had to wait to have late night exp. service back?
*5 services on Queens Blvd (here we go again). Take a ride on the Queens Blvd. express today at around 5:30 pm (toward Jamaica of course) and tell me how fast the ride goes. Then tell me how you're going to place a third service on it. Once again, where do you store the morning Q trains overnight? (Hint: Jamaica Yard is already quite full overnight).
*3 services at Church Avenue. If this plan were to be implemented, you would want ONE TOWER OPERATOR during the rush hour (the EXTENDED rush hour!) to manipulate the switches at Church Av so as to relay G trains on the lower level and merge G/V services in both directions, AND manipulate the switches at Ditmas Av for F trains to run express and the V to run local (remember the reverse peak direction now). Have two TW/O's you say? You obviously do not know the schematic layout of the tower. It would be extremely difficult to say the least.
Well, the good thing is that you would give a shot at a rookie TW/O of getting Saturday/Sunday off which this nightmare of a job would obviously be packaged with. The bad thing is that you'd also guarantee that TW/O a divorce after he takes the job home with him.
At least you brightened the faces of some of my co-workers at Jay Street. They obviously got a good chuckle with this letter over morning coffee.
Thank you for opening our eyes... Fantasies just don't CUT IT!
N Bwy
Zman, thanks for your input. You've gave me something to think about. You probably know more about switches, switchmen and lay-up's than I do. Believe it or not though, there are ways to get around some of the flaws you mentioned.
First off, I did not just look at this whole thing from a railfan's perspective. While I admit that some of my proposals is from the railfan in me, most of it was designed with passengers in mind. The increase in express service and the increased options that passengers would have on several lines was strictly for the passengers. Secondly, I've conceded in the past, that if the money is not there, than this plan would have to wait. Now on to your points.
Extension of rush hours by a total of 120 minutes: I wasn't really trying to extend rush hours. According to what is now obviously a less than accurate subway map, Rush Hours (except for the AM hours) are EXACTLY those times I've stated in my proposal. Again, if the money isn't there then I would only have rush-hour express service when it's really needed. Chances are for example, running the B express all the way to Bay Pkwy, probably won't be necessary after 7 PM.
2 local services heading to 168 St: Honestly, I fail to see what good having any train terminate at 145 does. With no train terminating at 145, there's less switching in the area during non-rush hours. If there is any good that comes out of this, please let me know. Also, I had in mind passengers who are on the D who want to stay on the CPW express and yet want to eventually transfer to the 1/9 at 168. Believe it or not, there are several passengers who fit into this category. Giving them three trains at 145 helps decrease the wait. Then there's your issue of switchmen, which is a very good point. Constructing a crossover SOUTH of 168 would help both local trains enter and leave the station quicker. No additional switchmen would be needed. You're issue of lay-ups is also a good point, but upon a closer look, shouldn't change that much. Remember with A Trains now coming only from Far Rockaway (and 2 tph from Rock. Park), there should be less A trains to even lay-up. C Trains would be serviced at both the Pitkin Yard and the Concourse Yard. The new void left by the A could be used by some B trains. The C trains that are now on the main-line express tracks would now be K trains on the express tracks.
Tremendously inconveniencing riders on the West End Line: I did not know that walking across a platform constitutes a tremendous inconvenience. During rush hours, I'm now thinking to have the two trains connect at 9th Avenue, with the B train leaving first. I also thought of bringing back the West End Express not because of some railfanning fancy, but because I've noticed that there are a lot of people who use Bay Pkwy and 25th Avenue during rush, almost enough to justify having an express service by itself. Mind also that there are two popular express buses that basically shadows the West End from around Bay Pkwy, east to near Coney Island. I would be giving some of these riders a quicker option into midtown Manhattan. As for your 50% service cut, that may be the weakest link in your argument. People on the West End line generally ignore 50% of their service. Don't believe me?, ride the M on the West End during rush hours. Yet, some of these same passengers wind up transferring to a Broadway Local at Pacific. That's why I have a Broadway Local on the West End. At least in this scenario, passengers theoretically would actually use both trains.
No Queens Blvd late night express service: The only reason why I have the F running local at night is because I want to give riders on most Queens Blvd stops the option to take either the E or F. If I'm at Woodhaven Blvd and I'm looking for an F, I'm facing waiting time of up to FORTY minutes; up to 20 waiting for an E and up to 20 waiting for the F.
Five Services on the Queens Blvd: Yep, I'm still on this. I've rode Queens Blvd Exp trains during rush hours. They move okay (sometimes)until they hit either a switch or a station. If ONE train has difficulty then nightmares begin. But there are ways to even get around this as well. Q and R trains could use either the 60th or 63rd Street Tunnel if something goes wrong, and not be terribly off its route, although 60th Street could be trouble because it would have 4 routes on it. F and V trains could use either the 53rd or 63rd Street route and not be terribly off course. I don't think I've said that the Q service would be a speed demon, but it would be quicker than the F because it would run express all the way to 179. It would save riders in Eastern Queens and LI several minutes. As for storage of Q trains some could be stored the Coney Island yard. However, you could also store trains between Lexington-63rd Street and 57-7 Ave because Q service should stop running after 10PM. You could conceivably leave a few Q's on the B'way Express tracks if necessary (remember, there is no B'way express service at night under my plan).
Church Ave mess: Yes it would be trouble but not as bad as it seems. You could upgrade the operating tower at Church so that two people could work on the switching (and no one would be at 4th Av because it wouldn't be necessary). During rush, one person could concentrate on the G and whatever it's doing and work on the switches between the G and V local track. The other would only have to work on merging F and V trains in the reverse-peak direction and the V around Kings Hwy. Remember the peak direction at Ditmas shouldn't have the local track and express track switching problems because the switches should already be set. At all other times, the switches would be set for F express train to run local south of Church, while one person would be necessary to turn-around both G and V trains at Church. Church Ave is similar to Continental in layout, so I can't see why this wouldn't work. I think the TW/O's marriage will survive.
What about H. Any plans on bringing the H back? :)
H for what?!
H for what?!
Starting next weekend and every weekend through 10/28, there is no 2/5 service between 149th St - GC and East 180th Street. Train service is replaced by shuttle bus.
I suspect the GO maybe for ongoing Signal Work, although track work is also possible.
-Stef
SWELL! There goes my vulture hunt! 8-)
wayne
There's always Monday the 14th.
It's obvious how 5 trains are turning at either end, but what about the 2? What exactly are the bounds of the track closure?
The No.5 would turn on the Upper Leval and the No.2 would terminate on the Lower Lever at 149 GC. Some No.2 trains would go to 148 Lenox.
I figured the 2 to 149th St would relay north of the station on the northbound track, and crossover to the southbound track from there.
The 2 to the East may wind up with a relay on Track M north of East Tremont, otherwise it will turn in the confines of the station.
-Stef
I really do not like the sound of this. 149 GC is going to be nothing more then a mad house.
Leave it to the Station Agents to help keep things moving.
-Stef
You'll be working there Stef?
No. I'll be down in Manhattan while the drama is unfolding.
-Stef
It will be Station Agents and Platform Conductors working together.
This is gonna get brutal! Looks like I'm gonna have to find another way to get into and out of Manhattan. I know they've been doing signal work for some time now. But are they about to do something major, like rehabilitating the el structure, that is going to require the whole thing to be shut down?
In 1996, two of the four switches between Freeman and 174th Sts was replaced. I wonder if the other two are due for replacement?
BTW, I believe there will be local and express shuttle buses. In the '96 GO, Express shuttle buses used the Deegan, Bruckner, and Sheridan combo to get to the East and back.
-Stef
Yes, there will be express and local shuttle buses. Im on the 2 on the weekends, so it should be fun....... NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
Where are they sending you? Will you get to do the shuttle runs, or will you be coming out of Flatbush?
-Stef
Im coming out of Flatbush. I believe that the Bx55 bus will be extended to 149-GC. At least upper WPR pax have the options of the Bx41 and Bx55 buses in addition to the shuttle buses. Wait a minute, I believe the Bx41 only goes as far as 3Av-149St. Ah well, theres the Bx55 bus. Ill see tomorrow how the suppplement sheets look......
I believe the Bx41 only goes as far as 3Av-149St.
Has it been curtailed? On the map it goes to 138th St (3rd Av on the Pelham Line).
The Bx41 is shortened as of now to 149th St. The Bx2 now runs in its place to 138th St.
-Stef
The buses say 146 Street though for The Hub (some even still say 138 Street).
I'm on the No.5 Line on Weekends so I may see you. Also of now I don't see any supp. schedules so I'm just going to report to Dyre at the normal time.
I start out of Bklyn. Unless you are one of the unlucky ones to report to Mott.
BTW, this Go is posted on the 5 line but not on the 2 line. (MTA website)
If its like the other Picks my Saturday job will start from Mott doing 3 Trips to Bowling Green but the SUN job in the past always did 9 Shuttles
They just put it up for the No.2 Line
This is GO is for switch replacement. It would be nice if they can finish up the signal work as well. I wonder what equipment will be used on the Bklyn end of the GO. Is it possible that we may see Livonia R62a's?? Just got to wait until next week.
142s, 142s, and more 142s. They're going to have to lay them up somewhere, since there's no access to the yard. How 'bout Track M on the Boradway Line?
-Stef
This GO is for switch replacement. It would be nice if they can finish up the signal work as well. I wonder what equipment will be used on the Bklyn end of the GO. Is it possible that we may see Livonia R62a's?? Just got to wait until next week.
Here's a trivia quiz from the good ol' Train Man!! For all my fellow train/transit buffs and anyone who is knowledgeable. Try it out and see how you do!! My next post, titled "TRIVIA QUIZ RESULTS" will have all the right answers. Good luck!! NO CHEATING PLEASE!!
1). Name 7 NYCT subway lines that come outside twice. (storage yards on said lines DO NOT count as coming outside. Coming outside refers to main line running that comes outside, and refers to lines operating currently, answers with past lines and services DO NOT count. We're dealing with the present, unless otherwise indicated.)
2). Name 3 railroads that have trackage and operating rights on NS (ex-Erie) Southern Tier line in NY State
3). Which are the 4 railroads whose trains serve Fresh Pond Yard?
4). Name 3 subway lines in the NYCT system that currently operate entirely within one borough (hint, one is in Manhattan, one in Brooklyn, and one that is in Queens)
5). What are 3 lines that currently do not enter Manhattan at all?
6). Name the line in the NYCT system that enters Brooklyn twice.
7). Name all the stations LIRR closed in the late '90s
8). Which passenger station in the LIRR system, currently, has the SHORTEST station platform?
9). Name 4 lines in the last 15 years that have had their Queens terminus changed (changed from one Queens terminus to another Queens terminus)
10). What year was Amtrak's West Side line, from Penn Station to Spuyten-Duvyil Junction, opened up to active rail service?
11). Which major metro area rail control center is known as P.S.C.C (Section A)?
(anyone who either works for LIRR, Amtrak, NJ Transit, or has a scanner tuned to rail frequencies, should especially know this)
12). Who was the last operator of the west end of the Staten Island Railway from Cranford Jct., NJ to Arlington Yard, S.I. (via AK Draw)?
13). Who is the operator of the Chemical Coast Secondary Line in NJ?
14). Which major railroad has NY State placed in consideration to be the operator of the Bay Ridge/65th Street Yards?
15). The Oak Point Link in the Bronx was built to move freight train traffic, from Oak Point Yard and upstate, off of which busy railroad line and junction?
16). Name the last operational portion of the South Brooklyn Railroad
17). What are NYCT's 2 physical connections to the nationwide rail network?
18). Which railroad in the MTA rail system is NOT physically connected to the nationwide rail network? (Think REEEEEEEEALLY hard about this one, and I am quite sure the answer will come to mind!!)
19). What, until recently (2001), was the ONLY subway car model "oddity" operated in the system?
20). Identify the following NYCT signal system aspects
a). red over red
b). red over red over yellow
c). yellow over yellow
d). yellow over yellow over yellow
e). flashing lunar white to steady lunar white
f). yellow over green
g). green over yellow
BONUS # 1: Name all LIRR stations in Queens that were abandoned between 1970 to the present.
BONUS # 2: What was the most recent movie who's underground subway scene was shot in the lower level of 42nd Street/8th Avenue Station?
(include the year of the movie if you know it)
BONUS # 3: Name 4 productions (i.e. movies, music videos, etc.) that were shot in the Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street Station (include the year of the production if you know it)
Ratings: < 5 right: Are you a true rail buff?
5 - 10: O.K.... just review nycsubway.org a little more
10 - 15: You know your stuff!!
15 - 19: A future Train Man :-)
All 20 (plus bonuses): You're the second best Train Man!! :-)lol j/k .You're very well knowledgeable!!
Wanna see how ya'll did!! I think all takers should do well these questions, to me, ain't hard at all!!! Answers posted tomorrow evening!! Look for "TRIVIA QUIZ RESULTS" post by me!!
The M subway comes outside twice.
The #1 subway comes outside twice.
The N subway comes outside twice
----
The Times Square Shuttle and the Franklin Av Shuttles stay inside one borough. When shuttle trains are run in the Rockaways, that is true there too. Is there still an M shuttle at night? That would qualify.
-------
The M enters Brooklyn twice
For # 18, I say the Metro-North Harlem line. The whole line which terminates in Wassaic is not used by other railways, and only Metro-North used GCT.
I don't follow much outside the subways, so that's all I'm going to bother trying to answer. All of this is from memory.
1) I count at least ten: the F, L, M, N, Q, W (comes out thrice; does that not count?), 1/9 (which could be counted as two), 3, 4 (late nights only), and 5.
4) You must mean the shuttles. 42nd and Grand in Manhattan (that's two!), Rockaway in Queens, Franklin in Brooklyn.
5) Again, two of the shuttles, plus the G. (The TA doesn't treat shuttles as lines, BTW.)
6) The weekday M is the obvious answer, but the L also just barely enters Queens before returning to Brooklyn. The J/Z comes close but misses, IINM.
9) E, G (weekday), J, R. The A also got an additional Queens terminus on a few rush hour specials to Rockaway Park.
10) This isn't the subway, but I remember it. 1990, I think.
19) I don't understand the question. There were a number of Redbirds with oddities of various sorts -- mismatched straps, dropsash storm door windows, updated handrail hardware (8660), etc. Did you have something else in mind?
20)
a) Stop and stay. Probably means that a train is crossing in front of you or the tower forgot about you.
b) Call-on. Visually verify that the switch is set the way you want it to be set, push and hold the button until the trip arm drops, and proceed with care, since you may be moving into an occupied block.
c) The switch is set to the diverging route. Treat it otherwise as a yellow automatic.
d) Never seen this one.
e) Approaching a wheel detector zone, you were going too fast but you slowed down to the appropriate speed in time.
f) The switch is set to the main route. Treat it otherwise as a yellow automatic.
g) The switch is set to the diverging route. Treat it otherwise as a green automatic.
BONUS 3) I don't know, but Hoyt subbed for Wall in one and Franklin in another.
2). Name 3 railroads that have trackage and operating rights on NS (ex-Erie) Southern Tier line in NY State
MNRR, NYS&W, CP Rail
3). Which are the 4 railroads whose trains serve Fresh Pond Yard?
CSX, NY&A, NY Cross Harbour and LIRR?
10). What year was Amtrak's West Side line, from Penn Station to Spuyten-Duvyil Junction, opened up to active rail service?
1992 (or 94)
11). Which major metro area rail control center is known as P.S.C.C (Section A)?
Penn Station Control Center
Back at Ya: What towers did it replace?
12). Who was the last operator of the west end of the Staten Island Railway from Cranford Jct., NJ to Arlington Yard, S.I. (via AK Draw)?
CSX or B&O
13). Who is the operator of the Chemical Coast Secondary Line in NJ?
Conrail (CRSAO)
15). The Oak Point Link in the Bronx was built to move freight train traffic, from Oak Point Yard and upstate, off of which busy railroad line and junction?
The MNRR Hudson Line through MO interlocking.
18). Which railroad in the MTA rail system is NOT physically connected to the nationwide rail network? (Think REEEEEEEEALLY hard about this one, and I am quite sure the answer will come to mind!!)
The SIRR. Although in theory...
20). Identify the following NYCT signal system aspects
a). red over red : STOP
b). red over red over yellow : RESTRICTING / CALL-ON
c). yellow over yellow : DIVERGING APPROACH
d). yellow over yellow over yellow : DIVERGING YARD
e). flashing lunar white to steady lunar white : WD
f). yellow over green : MAIN APPROACH
g). green over yellow : DIVERGING CLEAR
19). What, until recently (2001), was the ONLY subway car model "oddity" operated in the system?
R110
4). Name 3 subway lines in the NYCT system that currently operate entirely within one borough (hint, one is in Manhattan, one in Brooklyn, and one that is in Queens)
Times [] Shuttle, Franklyn Shuttle, Far Rock Shuttle.
That's all I have 4 now.
BONUS # 2: What was the most recent movie who's underground subway scene was shot in the lower level of 42nd Street/8th Avenue Station?
(include the year of the movie if you know it)
Was it "Ghost"?
1. 1, 2, 4, F, Q, W, M.
4. Rockaway Shuttle (Queens), Franklin Ave. shuttle (Brooklyn), 42nd St. shuttle (Manhattan).
5. G
6. M during rush hours.
20.
a. Stop and stay
c. proceed on diverging route at restricted speed
f. proceed on straight route
g. proceed on diverging route
Bonus #3
Nighthawks 1981
The Warriors 1979
Crocodile Dundeee II
Coming to America 1988
1 -- The #1, #4, F, M, N, Q, Q-diamond, W
4 -- 42nd St, Franklin and Rockaway shuttles.
5 -- G, Franklin and Rockaway shuttles.
6 -- M
7 -- Mill Neck, Center Moriches, Southampton College, Richmond Hill, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Fresh Pond, probably one or two others.
8 -- In electric territory I think it's St. Albans at 2 car lengths. Some of the stations between Riverhead and Greenport look awful short, though, from pictures.
9 -- G, N, R, E, J (hey, wait, that's 5 -- was the N/R switch more than 15 years ago?)
18 -- SIRT
Bonus 1 -- Add Elmhurst, Springfield Gardens and Union Hall Street to Richmond Hill, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Fresh Pond from above.
I'm clearly at the amateur level -- but at least I impress myself.
CG
I see trivia is running strong here. Here's one to think about. Only a real buff can answer this one.
What is the nickname to the junction at 135 Street where the A,B,C,D trains split and converge to/from Washington Heights and The Bronx?
Couldn't get it, huh? Here's the answer:
Homeball Alley!!!
I knew that even before I came to Transit!! :-) That's how much of a buff I am!! Surprised a lot of the people in the TA I talked to at that time. Most thought I already worked there.
Is this scary or what?
(Must be registered free at NY Times to see the article and picture).
Is that a temporary, mobile bridge I see in the picture?
(A bridge device employed by the US Army and others which has a cab and is driven or towed into position, then extended on girders or hydraulic pistons).
Sure that isn't somewhere on the BQE?
Internationally, I've driven a bus in London (double decker!) and the Negev desert. I'll be in Bangkok in a few months and hope to get the opportunity there. But this one, I think I'll pass.
On-topic: The Bangkok subway is amost completed, and I'm trying to arrange a tour of one of the stations under construction. Hopefully I'll be able to add some pix to the Bangkok Skytrain section of the main site.
Todd is the MAN as he loves all forms of mass transit, I on the other hand just happen to work for a bus company < G >
Here is some trivia for Chicago sub-talkers
1) Name all L lines that have at grade crossings
2) Name all L lines that have used overhead wires
3) Name all the Metra precursor commuter railways that employed DMUs
4) Name the two Metra lines that utilized street median ROW
5) Name the only Metra line without grade crossings
6) Name all four original L companies, and the L companies that used steam locomotives
7) Name all the commuter railroads still in existence before RTA takeover
Correction to #7, for all the current Metra lines, name the precursor railroads that operated commuter trains
#1 - the only two I'm sure of are Skokie and Evanston. Some "L" fan I am, eh?
#2 - obviously the Skokie Swift, the Evanston line, and the Westchester branch... also, didn't the Ravenswood have overhead?
#3 - I'm not sure I understand. DMU's were never used much around Chicago, not counting doodlebugs and the such (not MU-capable). Rock Island had some sort of Italian DMU-type thing, though... I'd like to know the answer to this one.
#5 - Metra Electric (Illinois Central)
#6 - This one should be pretty easy. The original four "L" companies were South Side Rapid Transit, Lake Street Elevated, Northwestern Elevated and Metropolitan-West Side. SSRT and Lake Street both used steam.
#7 - I'm thinking C&NW, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central, CB&Q/BN, Rock Island.
So how did I do?
Frank Hicks
There are four lines with grade crossings: Evanston, Skokie, Ravenswood, and Douglas. In the past, add Lake Street, Garfield Park and its Westchester extension, and the North Side mainline north of Wilson Avenue. Ravenswood never had wire; the three with wire were Skokie, Evanston, and Lake Street (between Laramie and Forest Park). For question #7, I would add Norfolk & Western and possibly GM&O to Joliet. New York Central had commuter service to LaPorte, Indiana, but that was gone before the RTA and Metra came into being.
I'll add a Chicago "L" trivia question. What the the first portion of a line to be abandoned and the structure demolished?
The "Exposition" RR which connected at Jackson Park (Stony-63rd) and circulated the fairgrounds during the 1893 World's Fair
That's a good answer. I was thinking of that portion of the Jackson Park line east of Stony Island Avenue that went into the park, the exposition grounds, and terminated at the Louis Sullivan designed Transportation Building, and connecting with the exposition's internal elevated railway, called, I believe, The Intra Mural Railway. It's interesting that the South Side "L" to Jackson Park was steam powered, and the Intra Mural used the technologically advanced third rail electric power. When the World's Columbian Exposition closed, the Intra Mural was demolished, and the Jackson Park "L" was cut back to Stony Island.
Exactky the segment I was alluding to. I did not remember the name. BTW when CERA did a fan trip to JP in 1963(yes I was there a green college kid) they gave out reproductions of the service guide for the Intra-Mural. If I ever find it I will post.
I never rode the CNW EDC's which didn'y last long. I was though on that final C&WI run to Dolton.
PRR and later PC 'the Valpo dummy' Local service to Valparaiso Indiana on the PFtW&C line now IIRC CSX
1. Douglas, Ravenswood, Evanston
2 Lake (before raising up to C&NW embankment), Evanston, Skokie, AND freight on the North Side between Buena and Howard
3.C&NW on the 'freight spur' over to Michigan Ave
4. IC Electric on East 71st in South Shore neighborhood
Q in La Grange Rock Island "Suburban" line
5.
6. South Side Rapid Transit, Nowthwestern, Metropolitan, Oak Park,
South Side definitely used steam.
7. North Shore (closed 1963), Rock Island , IC, CSS&SB, N&W , CB&Q, MILW,C&NW
Unoffered bonus question--the "terminal" co that ran commute service into the 60-s C&WI
Here's a shameless plug for the annual event in Braford at Shoreline:
When: Saturday & Sunday Septemebr 28th & 29
Where: Shoreline Trolley Museum
What: Autumn in NY, i.e. all the trolleys & subway/el cars out & about these two days are from New York City.
You'll be able to ride and/or photo most of these subway/el cars:
- IRT R-17 #6688 1955
- IND R-9 #1689 1940
- H & M #503 1928
- SIRT #388 1925
- IRT Lo-V #5466 1924
- IRT Hi-V #3662 1907
- BRT Gate Car #1227 1903
- BRT Trailer #197 1888
- NY Elevated Trailer G (41) 1878
Most of the following trolleys can be ridden:
- TARS #629 1939
- B&QT PCC #1001 1936
- BRT Convertable #4573 1906
- Nassau Elect. #1792 1899
- Union Ry (Bronx) #316 1895
- TARS #220 1892
And most of these MOW cars will be on display:
- TARS Snow Sweeper #S-36 1920
- IRT Hose Car #53 1906
- B&QT Shear Plow #10 1898
Note 1: we have many other cars from NYC, but they and maybe a couple of the above won't be easily available to the general public.
Not 2: Ever want to operate a trolley or subway car ? Well here's your chance, join the museum at the $30 level and we'll be happy to give you your first lesson Sat. or Sun. Please note we can't do that when the general public is on board, because you might "dump it" :-)
Seriously the lessons are given at the end of the day.
So come join Sparky, Jef H., Lou from Brooklyn, Anon-e-mouse, the BMTman, Stef, The Sarge (Jeff Rosen), myself and others because we would love to take you for a ride !
For more details, please see the item on the Comming Events calendar on this site ... End of shameless plug < G > Mr rt
Hey, will Newark PCC 27 be out??
Cool, count me in... It's doubtful that I'd be able to make it up there on both Saturday and Sunday, so I'll probably be there Saturday. Assuming my car survives the trip back from Chicago this weekend, of course.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Are you still coming up on Sunday Oct 13?
Probably... Could you fill me in again on what the activities will be, and what the cost is? Thanks.
By the way, my car (and me) made it back from Chicago with no problems this weekend. I just arrived in Philly about an hour ago. This was my fourth road trip between Chicago and Philly this summer; I think I could drive the PA Turnpike blindfolded by now! I should be able to drive up to Branford on Saturday, so if anybody in NYC or Philly wants a ride, drop me an e-mail.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Read all about it here.
David, since this is your first time we'll have to turn on the foamer dector < G > Plan on a long day ... you'll enjoy it all.
BTW, you don't have to have a auto to get there, e.g.
- The ERA has rented a bus
- M-N & CTransit (F line) brings you withing two short blocks, but you'll have to walk past a cemetary.
... you'll have to walk past a cemetary.
Quite convenient, though... whenever anyone foams too much and gets shot on suspicion of rabies, we've got a nice spot to plant them :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of which...
We're charging $40 for the trip, which includes admission to the Museum. Send a check or money order for $40 per ticket and a self-addressed, stamped envelope to:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
Our boarding location is on Ninth Avenue between W. 40th and W. 41st Streets in Manhattan, and the boarding time is 9 AM SHARP. There will be a pickup in Yonkers at 9:30 AM SHARP in the Bee Line bus stop on Central Park Avenue at McLean Avenue (northeast corner). When you pay, please let us know at which stop you will be boarding.
Incidentally, we'll also accept payment at the September NYD meeting, which is tomorrow, Friday, September 20, at St. John's University (formerly the College of Insurance), 101 Murray Street in Manhattan. Doors open at 6:15 PM, and the meeting starts at 7:15. Jack May will be doing a presentation on European streetcar and light rail systems (and some subways, too!).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Count me in, all the way from FL. I will be riding up with Ron Parente (from NY not FL) and helping him with 316. Hope to finally put some faces to all the names I recognize.
Steve Loitsch
Oh good grief... don't tell me we're letting Ron run wild again... one of these days he's going to bounce off the quarry trestle :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL, I can almost hear him now!! Great picture by the way
Steve
Thanks Steve... it's from last year's Autumn in New York... nice brisk day even by Connecticut standards, cold enough that this North Carolinian had on a winter coat and was STILL cold!
Here's another shot, taken in April 2001...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What the reason behind the <4> skipping 138th Street during rush hours? Too little headway on the local tracks at that station? Just curious.
Prevent backups with 2/5 merge/split at 149th
From today's New York Times.
The underlying theme of the article - which sounds a lot more like an opinion piece than news reporting - is that lower Manhatan's recovery is going to be hampered by its poor transit system unless something major gets done. I find that an unwarranted assumption. There are very good transit connections to lower Manhattan from most parts of the city and region, or at least there will be once PATH reopens. The one exception applies to Metro-North commuters, who have to deal with the overcrowded Lex, but that's also the most difficult drawback to remedy. Just about everyone else has an easy trip to the area.
"Metro Matters" is a regularly scheduled opinion piece, not an article.
Just to continue//// I've been riding the line for years...biggest
loss of time is below 125th st...(AM Rush) to 96th St...prior to SS
service...trains lost a lot of time trying to take on additional passengers//trains were already packed by 125th st...My observations..with SS service..passengers loads now allow room for
these stops below 125th..thus less loss of time loading...SS service
does work.
"My observations..with SS service..passengers loads now allow room for
these stops below 125th..thus less loss of time loading...SS service
does work."
Skip stop doesn't reduce loading. More trains reduce loading. If trains are less crowded, it may be because they added more trains when they introduced the 9.
Suppose they had added those extra trains but allowed them to stop everywhere? You'd get the same loading benefits, but more trains at the stations that now are served by only the 1 or the 9.
And in fact, before skip-stop was introduced in 1989, alternate rush hour trains terminated at 137th. Although I wasn't riding the subway regularly at the time, I assume some trains were crowded when they reached 125th but others were mostly empty.
This is true as they have that underground yard between 137 & 145th.
That is exactly opposite of what I would have thought, but then for 11 years I was going in the other direction & then only as far North as 116th. Bill, Thanks for the INFORMED input.
Ok, guys and gals, here are the answers. I know I said I would post tonight, but I decided to change my mind and post now..... and by the way no matter how good or not good you did you get much respect and praise from me for giving the effort. Next time I have to put in harder questions :-) Thanx everyone for taking time to try the trivia quiz out!! :-)
Here's the "A"s:
1). N, M, W, F, Q (both), 1, 4, L (yes the L, remember S/B at Wilson Avenue.....yes this counts!!)
2). Metro North (operated by NJT under contract), NYS&W (Susquehanna), D & H (CP Rail)
3). NYAR (NY & Atlantic), CSXT, CP Rail, Providence and Worcester (this is how MTA receives ballast loads...P&W's April - October Stone Train)
4). Rock Park Shuttle (QNS), Franklin Av Shuttle (BRK), 42nd Street Shuttle (MAN) (NOTE** M Shuttle DOES NOT COUNT, because it is not a full time 24/7/365 service, Rock Park, Franklin & 42nd ARE!!)
5). G, Rock Park Shuttle, Franklin Av Shuttle, M (night/weekend shuttle)
6). M (rush)
7). Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Quogue, Center Moriches, Southampton Campus (LIU), Holtsville, Mill Neck
8). Bellport (1 Car Length!!)
9). E, J, N, R (If you said G, you are also right!!)
10). 1991 (when Amtrak ceased Empire Corridor/Lake Shore Limited service out of GCT, and moved it down to Penn)
11). Claytor-Scannell Control Center (Penn Station Control Center P.S.C.C.)
12). Delaware Ostego (Susquehanna) (line is now dormant, "Susie Q" ceased operation to S.I. in 1990 due to low traffic. West end of AK Draw in poor shape to handle train traffic, plans are in the works to revitalize train traffic over AK to Howland Hook Term. and Arlington Yard, possibly CSXT or Conrail S.A. to operate it, pending NJ state aprroval and rebuilding of the west approach to AK)
13). Conrail Shared Assets
14). Canadian Pacific
15). Metro North Hudson/Harlem, at Mott Haven Junction/Interlocking (MO)
16). From west (NYCT system north) of 9th Avenue to Bush Terminal/39th Street Yard and to 65th Street Yard via NYCH (down 2nd Avenue)
17). Linden Yard connection to the NYAR Bay Ridge Branch, SBK from 9th Av to 39th Street Yard (Bush Term) and 65th Yard
18). Staten Island Rapid Transit (SIRT)
19). R-110B (only 67 foot formerly in present day operation, operating as only a 9 car max. train)
20). (IN EXACT ORDER)
a). Stop and stay
b). Call On indication (operate manual release, proceed with caution, expect to find broken rail, another train ahead, obstruction in the block, prepared to stop within 1/2 range of vision)
c). Proceed w/ caution on diverging route
d). Yard Indication
e). Wheel Detector Speed Inforcement in effect (anyone who is a motorman for NYCT and didn't get this one I DON'T WANNA WORK WITH YOU!! lmao :-D juss kidding)
f). Proceed on diverging route (expect next signal to be clear)
g). Proceed with caution on the main route (expect next signal to be red, or restricting)
BONUS # 1. Elmhurst, Bellaire, Union Hall, Springfield Gardens, Woodhaven Junction, Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penney Bridge
BONUS # 2. Ghost (1990)
BONUS # 3. Coming To America (1988), Beat Street (1984), Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1990), Michael Jackson BAD (music video, 1987), Nighthawks (1981), The Warriors (1979), Crocodile Dundee 2 (1988)
Thank you all for giving this quiz a try!! Next time, much much much much much much harder questions!! :-) lol
Um...
1) What about the 3 (south of Utica and north of 135th) and the 5 (on either side of the tunnel that includes the Pelham Parkway station, as well as a third time on trips to and from New Lots)?
4) What about the Grand Street shuttle?
5) Why does the part-time M shuttle count in 5 but not in 4?
6) Middays too, and what about the L?
9) When exactly did the R stop serving Astoria? I think it was before 1987. If I'm right, then drop the N from your list (but the R stays).
19) Was the R-110B operating in revenue service in 2001?
R-110B in 2001 was in service on the C line, but was finally removed from service due to serious braking problems. I saw it all the time laid up in 207 Yard on the east end, and got the details from supervision.
If you have the book "New York City Subway Cars" by James Clifford Greller, check page 95, top-center photo, of R-32s on the R at Astoria in 1987!! The change between the N and the R occured in mid '87, just a year or so before the E changed it's terminal from 179 to Parsons-Archer.
Forgot about Grand Street, and I give credit for the M because I thought of it now!! Hey I am not perfect!! But my answers were right, and no one mentioned Grand Street shuttle!!!
And the 3 in Manhattan is not a full open air mainline run!! North of 135 is not in a tunnel, but is under a housing project, with a bus lot next door, and the storage yard DOES NOT count, as I stated in the quiz about "end of line" yards.
The L line DOES NOT enter Brooklyn twice!!! The little wedge on the map (by Wilson Avenue) does not count because Wilson Avenue station is on the Brooklyn side of the border; the L does NOT have station stops in or serves Queens physically!!
Darn, I thought I was specific, guess I gotta give details to the millimeter!!!
When were the R-110B's pulled from service? I thought it was in late 2000, but maybe not.
It's past mid-2002. If the N/R swap occurred in mid-1987, it occurred just over 15 years ago.
I mentioned the Grand Street shuttle.
Between 145th and 148th, the 3 is 100% outdoors. It's brief but it exists, and it counts.
The L passes through Queens. It doesn't stop in Queens but it passes through Queens.
I stand corrected on the Lefferts shuttle.
Yes, as they say, the devil is in the details!
Amendment to answer to Question 4, if anyone said M shuttle for #4 then you ARE right!! My mistake!!
Then how about the other part-time single-borough services -- the late night 5 (Bronx), late night Lefferts shuttle (Queens), midday B (Manhattan), late night/weekend N (Brooklyn), and late night R (Brooklyn)?
Lefferts is not a single borough shuttle, because the north-end terminus is Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn!!!
"Lefferts is not a single borough shuttle, because the north-end terminus is Euclid Avenue, Brooklyn!!! "
Does that make the "north" terminus actually south of the "south" terminus. I don't have a paper map handy to consider, but it looks that way on the on-line map.
CG
"4). Rock Park Shuttle (QNS), Franklin Av Shuttle (BRK), 42nd Street Shuttle (MAN) (NOTE** M Shuttle DOES NOT COUNT, because it is not a full time 24/7/365 service, Rock Park, Franklin & 42nd ARE!!)"
42nd St shuttle is not 24/7. It doesn't run late nights except when there is a GO on the 7.
18). Staten Island Rapid Transit (SIRT)
I thought the AK Bridge was operated for a time by Staten Island Railroad, a NYS&W operation, as successor to SIRT's freight operations.
the m&e is now going to be the operator of sir in nj(and rvrr also)
They are sceretly rehabilitating the RoW so avoid NIMBY protests.
but only as far as rt22 in union the rest of the right of way is still covered with heavy brush and most of the crossing have been ripped out. also there is a new house project that put up a retaining wall in the path of the tracks
NYSW was the operator of the line, but since 1990, NYSW ceased operation over the line due to dropped carloads and business. The line became dormant and, as of now, unused due to the present lack of freight traffic on the line. Plans now are to open the line to possible intermodal (trailer) traffic because Howland Hook Marine Terminal has become a busy trailer terminal, and now NY State wants to utilize freight operations to serve the terminal. Says it could boost business at the terminal more. But no trains will be running there yet until the west approach to AK in New Jersey (crossing over the Chemical Coast Secondary) is completely rebuilt. The current wooden trestle there is in very rough shape. Plans are also there to build a connector track from the Chemical Coast secondary to the SIR line. Possible operators of the line include CSXT, NS, and Conrail Shared Assets, but nothing is finalized yet.
Judging how well this goes will help me determine the degree of difficulty next time......
1) When the Metro first opened, Woodley Park-Zoo and White Flint were known by other names, what were they?
2) What date did the Orange Line make it's debut and what stations opened that same day?
3) On one of the early adopted regional system maps (I think 1968), there was a station planned to go between Stadium/Armory & Benning Rd/Minnesota Avenue, what was that station name?
4) What was the first station to open in Maryland?
5) What was the last station to open in Virginia?
6) Is the Georgia Avenue/Petworth station under New Hampshire or Kansas Avenue?
7) When the Metro first opened, the Yellow Line was to have THREE terminus's---what were they?
8) Speaking of the Yellow Line, what station was on the original maps and than later deleted and it's name combined with a neighboring stations name?
9) Mt. Vernon Square/UDC was originally supposed to be called what?
10) In the early days, there were maps showing where lines could be expanded beyond the 103-mile system (i.e, the Orange Line east to Bowie)----where was the Green Line to go beyond Branch Avenue?
here's what i know:
1. zoological park and nicholson lane
2. november 20, 1978 (deanwood, minnesota avenue, cheverly, landover, new carollton)
3. not a clue
4. silver spring
5. franconia-springfield
6. new hampshire avenue
7. king street, pentagon, and mt. vernon square (i'm guessing here)
8. U- street- cardozo (another guess)
9. logan circle
10. rosecroft raceway
1) When the Metro first opened, Woodley Park-Zoo and White Flint were known by other names, what were they? Zoological Park and Nicholson Lane
2) What date did the Orange Line make it's debut and what stations opened that same day? It was in December of 1979 IIRC, Minn Ave, Deanwood, Cheverly, Landover, New Carrollton, service ran from New Carrollton to National Airport
3) On one of the early adopted regional system maps (I think 1968), there was a station planned to go between
Stadium/Armory & Benning Rd/Minnesota Avenue, what was that station name?
IDK
4) What was the first station to open in Maryland?
Silver Spring
5) What was the last station to open in Virginia?
Franconia-Springfield
6) Is the Georgia Avenue/Petworth station under New Hampshire or Kansas Avenue?
NH
7) When the Metro first opened, the Yellow Line was to have THREE terminus's---what were they?
Where did you get this from? I only know of Franconia and Springfield
8) Speaking of the Yellow Line, what station was on the original maps and than later deleted and it's name combined with a
neighboring stations name?
Franconia and Springfield
9) Mt. Vernon Square/UDC was originally supposed to be called what?
Federal City College
10) In the early days, there were maps showing where lines could be expanded beyond the 103-mile system (i.e, the Orange
Line east to Bowie)----where was the Green Line to go beyond Branch Avenue? Rosecroft
I looked at cdks answers and see where you get the third yellow line terminal. I would rephrase the question and only ask about the southern terminal. The original northern terminal was Greenbelt.
I like your line of thinking---actually, I was looking for Greenbelt, Franconia & Burke.
The Yellow Line station that was deleted was Springfield----It was combined with the Franconia station to create Franconia/Springfield.
The West Hyattsville Station was to also be called Chillum.
I know that but I didn't write the quiz, someone else did. There were other station name changes, too. Twinbrook was going to be Halpine Road, for example.
Yeah, sorry, I know you didn't write the quiz. I just clicked on the first one with that title on it to respond. I remember seeing Halpine Road for Twinbrook on maps, too.
so what was the logan circle station? or was there ever a station by this name. also, i believe ballston station used to be Glebe Rd.
That's right, Glebe Road was what it was to be called and Viginia Square was Nelson Street. I'm trying to remember the Logan Circle one. The only Metro Station near there is either McPherson Square or Metro Center, but those were on the drawing boards already.
If they're talking about Mt Vernon Square (/UDC/7th Street-Convention Center) station, Logan Square's nowhere immediately near it; (7 blocks plus west), the original name's Federal City College
wayne
The original alignment would have shifted the Yellow/Green Line west to run under Logan Circle, thus eliminating the need for curves in the U Street area, making for a straight run from Logan Circle through Columbia Heights. the line would have shifted back to the current alignment near Georgia Avenue.
Tenleytown-AU was to be called Tenley Circle, Greenbelt was to be further south at Greenbelt Road (which would have been the station name), New Carrollton was to be named Ardmore, and I think Weapons Plant became Eastern Market or Potomac Ave.
Eastern Market was originally Marine Barracks
Federal Center SW was originaly called Voice of America
What? How did they go from "Voice of America" to "Federal Center SW"? And are you sure it's not Federal Triangle you're thinking of? (Trust me, the same two lines, similar station names... I've mixed them up often enough, but then again, I don't live there, so that question comes more from a railfan/tourist POV)
It wasn't "Weapons Plant"; it was "Marine Barracks".
wayne
I know that. I said it may also have been Potomac Ave, maybe even (not likely) Stadium-Armory. This map I have is but a photo of their initial plans for the system, before the first Red Line train was even operational. I know about the original name for Eastern Market both from here, and the deceased DC Underground site.
They should have stuck with the Ardmore name for New Carrollton... would have given them something in common with SEPTA... they'd both have stations named "Ardmore".
BTW, are they EVER going to build that Potomac Yard station, or should we all just forget about it?
Potomac Yard has actually come up lately---There's a referendum on the table to increase the sales tax for regional transportation issues and the Potomac Yard station came up.
OK... so that means it may still be on the board...
Potomac Yard
New York Avenue
Summerfield
Largo Town Center
The Dulles extension
Centreville/Chantilly
Prince William County
Laurel
Which will be done first? NY Ave, of course. I just wonder if Metro has any idea how much untapped land they could potentially make use of. NIMBYs be damned! (Then again, with NIMBYs and WMATA, WMATA usually gets the last laugh)
New York Avenue will probably open first, the Blue Line extension to Largo will be next because they're both under construction...all the others are still in the planning stages....one note though, the planned Summerfield station is now slated to be called Morgan Boulevard.
Why rename it? Ten again, I don't think metro has a station named for a street that is a Boulevard or Drive. They have:
New York Avenue
Rhode Island Ave.
Addison Road
Benning Road
Potomac Ave.
Minnesota Ave.
Braddock Road
King Street
Van Dorn Street
Georgia Ave-Petworth
U Street-Cardozo
Mt Vernon Sq-7th Street/Convention Center (the 7th Street part counts)
Southern Ave.
Naylor Road
Branch Ave.
Nope, No Blvd, Drive, or anything else.
Mount Vernon Square was originally called Federal City College.
The Green Line on some older maps was to be extended BEYOND Branch Avenue to a community known as Brandywine.
I tried to work the "Rosecroft Incident" into a question but declined at this moment.
#3---On some of the early maps, there were actually to be 2 stations before the Orange Blue split----Oklahoma Avenue and Kenilworth Avenue.
1.Zoological Park, not sure about White Flint's alias.
2.November 20, 1978 - Minnesota Avenue, Deanwood, Cheverly,
Landover and New Carrollton. Western terminus was Natl Airport.
3.Oklahoma Avenue
4.Silver Spring
5.Franconia-Springfield
6.New Hampshire Avenue
7.Greenbelt, Franconia-Springfield AND Huntington.
8.????? You got me on that one.
9.Federal City College
10.Charles City MD?
wayne
Wayne,
Very close, you impressed me with the Oklahoma Avenue answer..
#7---Greenbelt, Franconia and Burke
#8---Springfield
#10--Brandywine
I am no stranger to the District of Columbia, having visited it many times since early childhood. My Grandparents lived at 212 9th Street NE, on Capitol Hill (Eastern Market on the blue/orange, 92/94 bus on 8th St, 42 on "C" and "D"). My first trip on the Metro was on November 25, 1978, with my Grandfather on his last legs in Capitol Hill hospital, my Dad and I went back and forth on the Orange line from Eastern Market to New Carrollton to Natl Airport and back to Eastern Market, the next day we did the Red Line. I've done many trips and photo shoots on the Metro, and love it as much as I love my own NYC subway. My last trip was June 24-25 and we checked out the new Green Line stations and CAF cars.
wayne
Wayne,
How do you like the new color scheme of the cars? Personally, I didn't think I'd like it but it really looks good.
Mark
1: Zoological Park and Nicholson Lane
2: November 20th, 1978. New Carrollton, Landover, Cheverly, Deanwood and Minnesota Ave opened that day, with all Orange trains running from NC to National Airport to avoid overlapping with Blue Line trains. No other station openings that day.
3: IDK, and Stadium-Armory isn't on the map I have. The dot for the stop is there, but not the name.
4: Silver Spring, on February 6th, 1978
5: Franconia-Springfield on June 29th, 1997
6: New Hampshire Avenue, thanks to neighborhood opposition to the original location which WAS to be under Kansas Ave.
7: Greenbelt Road, Franconia (which would be in the same area as Franconia-Springfield), AND Springfield (probably close to VRE's Backlick Road station.
8: Springfield (Metro never went straight west from Van Dorn St, so they renamed Franconia to "Franconia-Springfield")
9: Federal City College
10: Brandywine, MD.
I saw two early maps with a seperate terminals for Springfield and a community called Burke which sat west of I-95.
As far as all the the responses I've seen, you, by far, have done the best.
Thanks. DC is me 2nd favorite city, and WMATA is my second favorite system (Philadelphia and SEPTA rank 1st - home is home, after all). So when I saw this quiz, I had to jump in!
I know the feeling---I grew up between Baltimore & DC and have always loved the Metro---when I first rode on it, the Red Line ran from Rhode Island Ave to Dupont Circle and the Blue Line ran from Stadium-Armory to National Airport. After that, I was hooked and have saved newspaper clippings and my map collection has grown to include maps of system all over the world. I have several wall maps of the Metro including one of the original ones when only the Red Line was open and one reflecting a planned Green Line terminus of Rosecroft---I only wish Baltimore would've gone w/ it's original plan to build a muilti-line system---I've got a book at home that maps out what the entire system would've looked like. The southern portion of the light rail follows the routing planned for the planned "South Line".
In the business section of this past Sunday's New York Times, on page 2, there's an ad for American Century showing complicated trackwork that appears to be a coach yard. In the rear left of the picture is a coach that appears vaguely European. The signals in the yard are also unfamiliar looking, looking more like American traffic signals than RR signals. The tracks are not under catenary.
In the foreground is a track worker in an orange vest. He's standing between the rails of one of the tracks. Realizing that there may be some distortion to the picture, the track gauge looks wider than standard gauge.
Has anyone else seen this advertisement? Does anyone know where the phot was taken (country and/or RR)?
Wider track?
Spain or Russia...
I thought Russia but couldn't tell.
Aren't the R142's coming to the #3 as part of the option order; all I've seen so far is Pelham cars reassigned to either 240 St., Corona, and Livonia?
the 142's will start appearing on the 3 when most of the Livonia single cars are sent to the 7 train.
just wanted to let you guys know, LIRR is hiring off the street for engineer. it was in the newspaper according to a friend of mine who is a engineer for LIRR. question to you guys. now i applied today by sending in a resume to LIRR. now do u guys think they would call me? i mean i have 3 things on my side.
1 i got experience with MTA Metro North Railroad, which is like LIRR sister.
2. I got a Friend who is a locomotive Engineer who not only helped me write a good cover letter, but he is sending in a reference letter about me
3. He also gave me the name of the DIRECT person i need to apply to. so while everyone else is applying to the regular ADDRESS, i got the insider advantage.
OPINIONS WANTED
OPINIONS GO HERE>
Most railroads are hiring "off the street", that is with exception to the Transit Authority who is hiring off the street with no experience. In reality, the railroads that are hiring are looking for those with prior train handling time, an FRA license or even "train handling time". It seems there are fewer in the trade who wish to promote. Railroad retirement is afloat with fewer members through automation, cutbacks and closures of lines and customers. This "direct" person you speak of will be in charge of looking at other applications to fill potential classes, in the end you will probably do good, as LIRR does hire contacts and cronies within through word of mouth. Before Conrail got swallowed up, the CSX put out one page ads looking for those who had the FRA licenses and were willing to pay relocation bonuses too.
How do you obtain an FRA license? I'm interested in piloting trains.
Well first u gotta go to the 4 months class of BOOK OF RULES, on ur OWN time unpaid. once u pass the tests and qualify on the book of rules, for 9 months u go into the field, riding with other engineers and they allow u to run their trains to get the feel of it. then after ur 9 months u go to FRA qualification class. they will ask u to draw a select portion of the Railroad(PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS). they wont ask u to draw the ENTIRE railroad, but u better know all of it from Zone A in long island City to Montauk so when they select a area u will know it. when u do PC, u gotta know every switch, every signal, and u gotta draw it ALL. its hard yes, but impossible no. i just hope with all i tell you, if LIRR does call me which is a possibility, i can show them i can handle it.
If NJT or Metro-North had engineer openings, I would pass with flying colors. I know every interlocking from Hoboken, NY Penn, and Grand Central westward and North. I have "Railroad Video Productions" to thank for that. LIRR is a little complicated but I can get every little detail and memorize it like riding a bike. But I would rather drive for Metro North or preferably, NJ Transit.
they dont wear uniforms ...........??..........!!
No uniforms.
street clothes 4 sure !! the conductors however MUST wear uniforms !
They can't wear sneakers you know.
You also only have 3 tries at passing the FRA test.
This actually the last year that the LIRR will hire Locomotive Engineers that have not been previously employed by the LIRR.
The passing 'Introduction to the Operating Rules and Proceedures' will be a prerequiste next year, right now it is the first hurdle for potential Locomotive Engineers.
It is that 12 weeks without pay that discourages people from the promotional. Full Conductors make about the same as Engineers there anyway and some make a bit more.
Some railroads also have had stipulations about promotionals. Back in 1997, if a bus driver went to Engineer at NJT, he/she forfeited rights to the old job. All or nothing. If you failed the NORAC or the finals, you might have flipped burgers. LIRR must have lots of new assistant and full conductors to be able to choose from within again. The MTA likes having a verifyable background check they can count on from within.
So a conductor would be paid as much as a train operator?What requirnment do they need?
GSB: The one thing that bugs me beyond 'those who could not qualify as CIs...' is why can't I be 'trained' to test and run the very trainsets I service and be responsible for? Would it not be an advantage to TA and RTO that the very guy who fixes the trainset could take it out for a run and say, 'No errors found, indication OK MON' or, 'Trainset contimues to fail by TOD/laptop interrogation and I cannot turn it over to RTO?' I can repair trucks, tractors, broadcast transmitters, telephone systems, mobile telephone equipment, computers and data systems...not to mention SkeeBalls and video games...but when I do any inspection of any trainset, I keep my fingers crossed for two weeks because as 'troubles/backfill,' the last inspection may have been poor and any TT will fly into my face.
CI Peter
It wouldn't be a sound nor safe alternative for a car inspector to learn the ropes of "operating" a train for the purposes of testing his repairs. RTO eats enough train delays due to qualified personel who don't have a clue. I'd keep the car inspectors where they do their work best. Now if you were permitted to ride along to see how your work came along, you'd have a problem since you would be doing the work of the Road Car Inspector. Try getting a run with the Track Test motormen, you'd have the best of both worlds, if you can do that in CED
Does anyone know if its double dipping if you already have a pension in the NYS pension system? I know asst. conductor isn't double dipping as they are only in the Federal RR pension system but I heard Locomotive engineers have both a federal & state pension on the LIRR.
No you aren't double dipping. I put in 16 years into NYCERS, and will no longer be paying SSI, while I am working for a Railroad Retirement pension. If the LIRR Engineers are paying into a NYS pension and RR Retirement, their SSI should be reduced but not eliminated, as well as a reduced benefit. Two full pensions for the price of one, never heard of it. Got to ask the folks on the LIRR about that.
Maybe someone can help me out here? I have a problem.
I've been trying to get into MNRR and LIRR for about 2 years now either as an Assistant Conductor, Customer Service Representative and/or a Ticket Seller.
I've called, emailed, faxed, mailed,and been in person to hand in my resume and all I get is a lousy postcard saying thank you for sending us your resume. Your interest is greatly appreciated-yadda-yadda-yadda.
When I go in person to 347 Madison, I can not pass the lobby. I am greatly interested in working for the RailRoad-Metro North preferred. Question is: Am I doing anything wrong? Am I not qualified? Is there an inside contact that could get me in or that I could get a hold of? I know you need to take a test to be an A.C. and I really want to take it.
I am also planning to go to MNRR Open House on October 19th.
Please help! Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!
#1979 S Times Square Shuttle
I sent my resume in August and got a letter telling me to come to an Information and Testing Session on 9/19 (yesterday). The response from my resume came in a matter of 2-3 weeks. Maybe they didn't feel you were qualified or maybe it got lost in the pile of other resumes. Don't give up though and keep trying.
Tony
I know current Conductors for LIRR who have said that they had sent their resumé in up to SEVEN TIMES.
Keep trying, don`t give up.
I began sending resumes to the LIRR right out of high school in 1981. The railroad would send that pre printed card thanking me for my interest, etc., etc. After several years of nothing, I called the Employment office and was told each card is kept for only one year before being discarded. I began sending resumes every week, to no avail. Finally, in 1991 I spotted an ad for an LIRR Police test. I figured "what the hell", at least I'll get my foot in the door. I took the test, did well, and was called in mid-1993. I was a police officer all of 16 months before a notice for enginner trainee was posted and I submitted a resume. Transferred in early '95, and qualified in April of '96. It may take a while, but don't give up! I can't speak for Metro North, but I know the LIRR is hiring a lot of engineers and trainmen. It took me 14 years, but was worth the wait. Good Luck!
MNR IS HIRING TOO! I GOT HIRED AUGUST 19TH 2002, AND WE HAVE NEW COMERS ALOT. APPLY ALL WHO ARE INTERESTED! EMAIL RESUME DIRECTLY IF U WANT.
The new NJT concourse in Penn Station will be officially opened Monday. I have not seen it yet but I'm told it's absolutely fabulous. Anyway, as I said, it will be opened Monday AM. I've already made plans to attend.
Did the concource excist before? Or has NJ Transit always used AMTRAK's part for its services.
NJT has used the Amtrak area until now.
Having seen the concourse from outside the gated area, it does look great. I'm looking forward to wandering around a bit on Monday as well.
CG
Announcement and floor plan from the NJ Transit Web site.
It's been open unofficially during the AM rush for a little while now. It makes the rest of the station look drab by comparison.
Question: Does this mean that the NJT trains will no longer be posted on the main departure and arrival boards/monitors in the rest of the station?
It makes the rest of the station look drab by comparison.
LOL. That's because it IS drab. It's amazing that they thought the current Penn Station was better than the real Penn Station when they tore it down to make the rathole that it is now. But that was the mentality of the 60's.....
I see one problem with the new concourse. It has access only to tracks 1-12. If your train arrives on 13-17, and yes, i have arrived on NJT on 17 as well as 13, 14, 15, 16, you are out of luck and have to leave that area to run for your train. Many NJT treins using the NEC (North East Corridor) run 12 cars and as such cant fit on low track numbers. Maybe fishbowl can elaborate on which tracks can hold how many cars.
Your correct that the new terminal only covers tracks 1 to 12 but just outside the new concourse on it's lower level you just continue down the corridor to tracks 13 and higher were LIRR has their staircases. It's very rare that they load on tracks 14 & higher.
I worry that they may close the new concourse late nights for security expecting us to use the Eight Avenue end. I hope they don't. I think most passengers enter & exit from the eastside vs the westside and this new concourse will be more popular. The conductor's on my train have told me that they noticed a passenger shift from the rear of the train to the front end when they opened the concourse for those three hours in the morning for us to exit.
There are more offices and the like toward the east end, anyway (ESB for example). Plus, people wanting the east side have a much easier time taking the IRT to the shuttle than taking the A/C/E.
I think I've purposely used the 8th ave exit once only, when I wanted to walk to PABT.
Arrival boards? As I discovered on Thursday, NJT doesn't post arrivals. Is that a recent innovation?
I don't think I've ever seen an NJT train on an arrival board... possibly at Trenton.
Why aren't they posted anywhere? I was hoping to meet someone coming in on a train from Newark. Fortunately, we had a backup plan -- nobody could tell me which track the train would be arriving on.
If you have a scanner you can listen for the train number and arrival track... I really don't see why if they can do it for Amtrak, and MNRR can do it in GCT, why they can't do it for NJT at NYP or at the very least HOB.
Wow, that's a lot of acronyms.
Oops, I meant abbreviations (don't want the grammar police on my tail).
Actually, the LIRR doesn't do arrivals either.
Actually, the LIRR doesn't do arrivals either
You can ask at the information window. Note, however, if you're meeting someone on an arriving LIRR train, knowing the track number may be of rather limited usefulness as there are multiple exits from each platform. It's much easier to prearrange a meeting place in the concourse.
NJT does post on the arrivals board at Newark, or at least they did when I met Sea Beach Fred and 5301 Fishbowl there a couple of weeks ago. And they even posted the track change as well - I was originally waiting on one platform and had to go back downstairs and then up to another one about five minutes before the train arrived.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Solari board in 30th Street lists arrivals of NJT Atlantic City trains. Unfortunately, for purposes of illustration, neither of the Solari shots on my Webshots pages showed one, since it had already arrived five minutes earlier with me on it.
OK. I have been used to seeing NJT and Amtrak on the same departure boards and have seen arrivals boards or monitors and just assumed that the arrivals listed trains from both RRs.
So . . . . Back to my original question. Are the NJT departures going to be removed from the boards and monitors that list Amtrak departures?
One of my employees left a recent news article on my desk today. Not sure what paper it was from (looked like Newsday) but the story was interewsting if not a little hard to believe.
I motorman on the SIRT was fired for selling a train key to a railfan. The story stated that in July the motorman, with 16 years on the job, sold a train door key to a teenage railfan for $10. Some time later the youth was arrested for impersonating a railroad employee. One thing led to another and the guy was fired. Of course he must have gotten some TWU style advice. His story was that the teenager was harassing him so he threw his broken key at the youth.
Hmmmmmmmm - not that seems possible.
The story is on page one, column 1, of Staten Island Advance, Thursday, September 15, 2002. The headline is "Rail engineer fired for selling key." According to the Advance, the 17-year-old kid went to the newspaper boasting that he had bought a key. I find it easier to believe the "engineer." (Now, I know the SIRT had freight locomotives, but are SIR motorpersons operators, engineers, or what?)
They are considered engineers because SIR is considered to be a railroad, not a subway line.
Well atleast I don't have to go at the door with a paperclip. It is better if the railfan has a actual key rather than the railfan breaking the lock in the process of opening it not so nicly. Or I could get one on the black market but I don't know where to begin. They do execist on the black market since I have seen subway merchants with them.
I've seen the Chinese merchants use them to walk between the cars on R44/46/68 trains. I wonder if they know the danger doing that on a 75' car entails.
Latino merchants. Also today I found out that today one of my house keys opens a padlock in a subway station. I didn't take the padlock off since that would arouse suspision. I did relock it.
I've said this a thousand times, GET M-* STYLE COUPLERS, THERE IS NEVER A GAP BETWEEN CARS. Or are the minority/peasent not worthy enough to have them.
Also today I found out that today one of my house keys opens a padlock in a subway station.
That isn't supposed to happen. Lock manufacturers all have particular reserved key series for bulk customers, and some actually produce different shapes of keys for those customers (so that someone can't simply take a key and have it duplicated on a standard blank).
Either there was a major foulup at the lock manufacturer, your house was previously occupied by a TA worker who did something funny with the locks, or your key/the TA's lock is badly worn and allowing mismatched keys to open it.
BTW, what were you doing trying your house key in subway padlocks, anyway?
Bored. One or the other is baddly worn then. I wasn't able to reproduce the results. BUt it was about 13 seconds before the train came.
Huck, the doors are locked for a reason. It would be a real shame if you used one, passed between cars, fell and were killed.
No, your heirs would sue the SIRT and win millions for your stupidity. Look at the Chinese woman, who let her kid play on the subway and he fell out an end door. The lawyers would salivate at the case.
Darwinsm is good. [I belive this was on B or D train some years ago]If the kid's DNA tells him to be overcurrios let his Creator take him. Is dieing under a subway car better or when he is older taking a Heroin/ecstesy/hash/meth/acid/* overdose?
When i was on the SIRT about 3 weeks ago. The doors between the end cars were unlocked. Mind you this was on a R44SI. I was surpised that they weren't locked. Does anyone know why the end doors aren't locked on the SIRT
The curves on SIRT are nowhere near sharp as curves in the subway. Also note that SIR is a railroad, not a subway line. Follows all FRA and ICC rules.
NO THEY DON'T, THEY ARE EXEMPT by EMBARGO. The doors are open because the locks are mostly BROKEN.
Ever since fare collection on the trains ended, vandalism of the equipment has increased.
Before then, the doors were unlocked for the conductor/trainman to move through the train and collect fares.
-Hank
Sometimes employees will do certain things they shouldn't. Then if the manure hits the fan, then it's CYA!
NY1 had a STORY on this but they mention nothing about the SIRT and imply that it was a subway motorman.
Peace,
ANDEE
I wonder if the teen arrested was 'Parellel Phil'?
WOAH! Let's not start calling this asshole a railfan. He is most accurately identified (in this circumstance) as a POTENTIAL VANDAL, and has already been arrested for vandalism, harrassment, and few crimes relating to forging letters from his teachers. How do I know this? The jackass lives just a block from my parents home.
He was kicked out of a local catholic high school (for reasons unmentioned), and sent pornographic emails posing as a teacher to other teachers and students at the school after his expulsion.
The article in this week's Staten Island Advance is the third I have read about him.
-Hank
Hank, you'e absolutely correct. We also have'em here, on Subtalk, too. Those who's main interest in railfanning is how much crap they can get away with.
Everytime I ride the subways, I can only marvel at how the tunnels were dug, how those pillars continue to hold up the elevated lines, shelters, and underground platforms. My only problem/concern is that I never see anybody checking up on these at all. Are they checked up on when a station is being reconstructed? Are they checked up on a regular basis? Lines like the Culver and West End are high above the street and those pillars have been holding them up for years. What guarantee/proof is there that the pillars will not unexpectedly give way? {don't mean to scare anybody.} Sorry if this seems like a dumb question, but I just got to know.
Track walkers who inspect the tracks also keep an eye out for tunnel conditions. If he spots cracks in the walls or dirt on the roadbed or catwalk, it is reported to Track and Structure. Likewise train crews and people walking on the elevated catwalks would notice if the structure seems a little wobbly.
It's not a dumb question
You are right it is not a dumb question. I'm sure more people would have answered if they knew the answer (I didn't). It's something no one really thinks about, but these inspections are probabably very important.
There was a time that the ride on the J was faster. The rush hour expresses used to travel from Essex St to Eastern Parkway or reverse, making only one stop, at Myrtle Ave. Marcy Ave was not an express stop in those days. The center track switches were located west of Marcy, rather than east. All of the side platform stations on Brooklyn's Broadway were handled by a local train.
New speed restrictions as a result of the Willie B collision a few years ago, have probably increased the time spent on the bridge as well.
" The center track switches were located west of Marcy, rather than east. All of the side platform stations on Brooklyn's Broadway were handled by a local train."
Too bad Jamaica Avenue rider can't have that kind of service anymore.. Maybe because they haven't demanded it.
N BWY
>>Too bad Jamaica Avenue rider can't have that kind of service anymore.. Maybe because they haven't demanded it.<<
Another bridge collision is a E ticket ride for sure.
The entire NYC subway system used to be faster, not only the Jamaica line.
It's not Rapid Transit anymore. Now it's Leisurely Transit.
You're correct, but at NYCT the whole system gotten much slower over the years. All of the speed restriction was one thing, but when they actually started limiting the speed of the trains - it makes a subway seem like a crawl. It's just not much fun like the good old days.
Wayne
Is it me or do the r142 seem to accelerate much faster? Is it A/C traction or something else? They also seem to travel faster then DC traction trains.
The newer cars are better able to MAINTAIN their acceleration rate under varying conditions (load, grades, etc.) than the older equipment is, due to computerized propulsion logic...the older equipment has been hobbled by the removal of field shunting (for loads of posts on that issue, search the archives), with the result that the top-end speed is lower than it was before and it takes longer to reach that new lower top speed than it did to reach the old, higher top speed.
David
I think thats why the TA modifyed the speed to 40-45.The regular was 60-65.The trains were accelerating and gettin to max speed to fast.
R142/R143MAN
AML
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250/index.html
Maybe it's just the Operator, accelerating pretty fast.
-AcelaExpress2005
I still have not received a response to my question about the R142(A)'s:
What is the significance of the stickers inside located between the door closest to the end of the car (on either side)? One denotes a black triangle. The other on the right is a black star.
Also, there is another metal compartment in that area but lower, and it is not the emergency intercom.
What is the purpose of that object?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Just to add to your quandary, I've also spotted a black sticker as well. Unless it's a desperate attempt to advertise the subway route with the same name, what is that for?
They city has approves the 7 line extension along the west side, the initial cost is $54 million and is expected to cost as much as 1 billion dollars. Go to www.ny1.com to read on
Have they approved for a EIS or actual constrution? Have they settled the NIMBYs yet?
NIMBYs? No one lives there, businesses better not complain because it's going to bring more revenue to them. That's right, shaddup ya damn businesses :-P
Someone will whine. This is New York City, remember.
The homeless, when they have to be moved from their spots on the pavement to accomodate the new entrances!
They won't be complaining when they discover new places to camp out at night.
The Business NIMBY's Along Jamaica Avenue From Van Wick Blvd(Expressway) to 168th Street complained about the El due to Business Losses and got the MTA to tear down the BMT Jamaica El, after the
El came down the Business NIMBY's Complained even more about lost business due to elimnation of the Jamaica El that They requested.
You asked for it, you got it.
Yeah, sometimes you got to watch what you wish for - you just might get it.....
"Have they settled the NIMBYs yet?"
Of course, some crackpot will object, but with a project such as this where there is a real and substantial public demand, the objection movement won't have much strength; it will be just a hollow whimper that will fade into the noise of construction.
Midtown West is greatly lacking in terms of subway access, and residents along Ninth and Tenth avenue have long suggested an extension of the Crosstown IRT, much as upper East Side residents have advocated a Second Avenue Subway,
Matt
Oh goody, I can take my grandchildren to the opening ceremony.
It's safer to say your grandchildren MAY be able to take THEIR grandchildren to the opening ceremony.....(that after our great granchildren take a ride on the brand new 2 Ave subway.)
If New York City gets the 2012 Olympics it will happen, because it would embarass too many important politicans and buisness people for there not to be mass transit access to the West Side Olympic Stadium that would be built next to the Javits Center.
If New York doesn't get the 2012 Olympics, then you're probably talking about your grandchildren's great-grandchilden possibly living to see opening day...
How could this happen? 73 years this city wanted another Second avenue line, nothing. when one person decides he doesnt wanna walk from Broadway to 12 Avenue then we get another subway extension. This is a travisty.
Isn't Broadway to 12th a longer walk than Lex to York? But really it's about development and tax revenues. The East Side has developed pretty well in the absence of the 2nd Avenue subway, while the far West Side is still kind of a wasteland (well, considering its location). There's a lot of untapped real estate potential there, which could be realized with a 7 extension. It's also pretty silly having NYC's major convention center served only by taxis and buses getting stuck in Midtown traffic.
Of course, personally I go to the East Side much more often than I go to the convention center, so I'd rather see a Second Avenue Subway. But I seem to remember that the 7 extension is supposed to use some sort of financing scheme that relies more on local property taxes and less on outright state and federal capital funding (anyone know more about this?), so optimistically maybe we could get both.
Hooray! I just hope they extend West underneath 41st or 42nd Street before turning South.
"Critics worry the project will be built at the expense of a Second Avenue subway line, a line they say would serve many more riders."
I always believed the Second Avenue Subway was the No. 1 priority, but I'm glad this project has been given the go ahead. NY1 doesn't say much else,
Matt
Any news or updates about this Sunday's trip?
has anyone here seen the Chunky soup commercial starring Michael Strahan of the NY Giants? what R-type car is depicted in this commercial? i also noticed he's riding a 6 train but i'm not sure what station it was.
Saw it yesterday, it looks to be an R-62A on the 6. They get on at GCS and off at 33rd Street. I thought the watch the gap sign on the outside of the train door was a cute reference to the gap between his teeth.
Peace,
ANDEE
It looks like an IND station, with its H shaped column.
(It got airtime here in DC)
Saw it just this morning (I'm in South Florida)
I saw it last night. The door chimes weren't quite in tune.
I hear next weekend, no 2/5 trains between 180th and 149th for 4 weekends. That's mad! What are they doing?
(I hear next weekend, no 2/5 trains between 180th and 149th for 4 weekends. That's mad! What are they doing?)
Trying to catch up the White Plains Road signal replacement capital job, which was terribly affected by the WTC disaster. All this year, this project has had trouble getting G.O.s and work trains because of the cutback in service on the West Side, and the reconstruction on the 1/9. So they were given four weekends to work like crazy and try to recover. I think it's the right thing under the circumstances.
While the G.O. sounds unpleasant, at least they have a main road on which to run the buses, and can approximate the subway stops from end to end.
wayne
The heck with those buses. If I have to go out, I'll take a bus to the 6 or the 4 trains at Pelham Bay or Fordham respectively.
For the MTA to get anything done, people have to be inconvenienced once in a while. I don't know how you expect the MTA to get stuff done. Maybe they should schedule all their project for whenever you'll be out of town on vacation.
Or, perhaps the TA can get track workers who are able to handle the occasional train passing through. Unless a track is being removed, I think suspending 5 service and just running 2's is enough. If you read my previous post, I have ways around the problem. It also seems that the TA doesn't give a damn about 2/5 riders. Could it be that the 2/5 run through poorer neighborhoods in the Bronx? I'll shut up the day they totally cut service on the rich Queesnline E/F/R/V for a project.
FLAME AWAY. I'm wearing abspestose. :)
Look.I've said it well over a hundred times.the subway system is almost 100 years old,some parts of it are well over 100 years old (ex:J/M/Z lines from Marcy Ave.-121St.And the WPR 2/5 lines). there are times when they need to be rebuilt.Wether it be the signals,or track bed or something else,it needs to be done.If you or anyone else don't like,then that's just too damn bad.Pack your bags and move out of the city.When a G.O. is in progress,train service on the lines affected are gonna be hindered.There's absoultely NOTHING you can do about it.It's not that the TA doesn't give a damn about this place and that or this group of people or that group.It has absoultely nothing to do with that.What it does have to do with is maintaining the system for public safety.Now if you wanna wind up dead because of a train derailment or something worse,then be my guest.
I guess that he thinks that the Stillwell Ave project is also being done like this becouse it goes to Coney Island. This area is comming back from what it you to be, but it is far from being Park Ave. Or last weekend on the L, I guess the TA should have not removed the switch so they can put a new one in, or get ride of the S turn into Alantic Ave.
Robert
If cables for new signal installation are being strung, you can't have regular trains running as these work trains have to unroll the cables from giant spools as they are attached to the side of the elevated structure or subway walls. This is a very slow operation. Once this is done throughout a given area, after many weekends of installation, you have to turn on and test new signals to make sure that they are working properly. In that case, regular service cannot be ran as well, unless you want a collision. As a NYCT T/O, I would not like to see a collision happen. Would you? Of course not. It is not a matter of track workers simply moving aside to allow trains to pass as you have stated.
If cables for new signal installation are being strung, you can't have regular trains running as these work trains have to unroll the cables from giant spools as they are attached to the side of the elevated structure or subway walls. This is a very slow operation.
One benefit for modern technology is the ability to multiplex many signals on a single (or double pair) pair of wires with no increase of error rate. The amount of information that can pass through a single 100-Base-T link (what connects computers in an office LAN) in one second is probably the same that passes through the entire NYC subway system in one month. (I haven't worked out the numbers, but it would be an interesting exercise if challenged.)
Also, modern technology has separated the physical media from the application that uses it through layered protocol models. This permits completely changing the physical media, from say wire to radio, without the necessity to change any other part of the system. There are inexpensive wireless links available whose range is not a problem out of doors that would eliminate the need for stringing signal cables altogether.
The TA is in a bind with regard to its signal system. The principal reason to change it at this time is because it was designed for a 25 Hz power source, instead of the now standard 60 Hz. The TA no longer generates 25 Hz power, nor did it incrementally cut over its signal system to 60 Hz, in the 40 years since it sold its generating facilities. It is now faced with a crisis because Con Ed will no longer supply 25 Hz power, not because the underlying relays, wires , etc. are in such poor shape.
There were several choices availabie to the TA.
The most obvious stopgap would have been to build 25 Hz power converters and go back to supplying its own signal power for the BMT and IRT lines. This would not have involved any construction along the ROW. The removal of rotary converters at the substations also means that the physical space would have been available for such a stopgap solution.
At least two types of signal modernization would also be possible that would minimize the use cabling. One such technique would be to use PLC's instead of relays for wayside equipment. Such systems can use multiplexed communication links between wayside equipment and reduce installation costs. Such systems have been used for subway systems since the mid 1980's. They had been used in industrial systems for a decade earlier.
The second type of modernization would be CBTC which eliminates the need for conventional wayside equipment altogether. This approach has many disadvantages for an existing, interconnected system.
The last approach is to replace the entire signal system as is and just use 60 Hz relays. This is the approach being taken by the TA to address the immediate crisis. The problem with this approach is that is the most costly and results in a system that is no better than the one currently in use. The major problem with the current system is that it is costly to maintain.
The TA has chosen an approach that is the most disruptive to service during installation and provides no improvement over the existing system when installed. Lots of signal maintainers will still be required. What a waste of a potential opportunity.
As far as the TA beauracracy is concerned, new signal installation (as primitive as it is) results in tower operator manpower savings which is paid for by the capital program. Manned interlockings for a simple crossover is no longer required. A new Master Tower is created so that one person can control numerous switches along the line.
(The TA is in a bind with regard to its signal system. The principal reason to change it at this time is because it was designed for
a 25 Hz power source, instead of the now standard 60 Hz. The TA no longer generates 25 Hz power, nor did it incrementally cut over its signal system to 60 Hz, in the 40 years since it sold its generating facilities. )
Every signal job since the 1960s have converted to 60 Hz. Soon virtually the entire system is now 60 Hz, except a few lines redone in the 1960s. These will be redone in the teens.
As for PLC and CBTC, they are being implemented on a test basis, and if they pass they will be used in the future. But after the R46 truck fiasco, nothing is going in the system in a big way until it has been tested in revenue service.
CBTC requires cables also. And Bill is right, they will be using diesel work trains to pull cable along the ROW in the 2 track tunnel. And they will be using other work trains to deliver material. Work trains can't move to the side and let revenue trains go through.
25 cy power is not at all the reason for all these major signal
replacement projects.
First, one could simply take the existing 25cy equipment and feed
60cy to it. I am intimately familiar with the relays, transformers,
etc. used in the 25cy territory and they were all designed to work
at either frequency. You'd have to replace the few high-tension
step-down transformers since those won't necessarily have the right
VA rating, but everything else will work at 60 cy.
The only problem is that you'd have to adjust
the track transformer secondary taps at every track circuit and
re-test for proper shunting.
The TA has, in fact, deployed standalone solid-state frequency
converters to keep the existing 25cy equipment up.
So, there is no reason to replace things just because of Hertz.
All of the signal modernization contracts (not counting the CBTC
pilot programs) also include consolidation of individual towers
into master towers. That's the primary reason for doing it.
A secondary reason is that the TA has recently changed its
thinking about where signals need to be. Generally the effect
is to slow down the system. ANother reason I don't necessarily
agree with, which is the presumption that since some of this
equipment is over 50 years old, it must be time to replace it.
So, when they do a signal job, they effectively build a brand new
system alongside the old one, then cut-over. Money would be
saved if existing components could be re-used. Sometimes though
that results in a silly kluge. For example, I recently learned
about the Broadway BMT re-signaling of the late 1960s. Where
new signals were added or signals were moved, the then-current
technology was used, i.e. DC line circuits and plug-in relays.
However, the old technology was AC line circuits and shelf relays,
so now there is this seemingly random hodge-podge of circuits
and equipment on that line.
As for unit-wire vs multiplexed systems, that's a design decision.
Sometimes the multiplexing equipment (what in the signal trade
would be called a "code system") costs more than just running
individual wires. Code systems actually go back to the 1940s,
using relays, of course.
Outrageous!!! I can pump out One Kilowatt A.M. Equivalent on 3,950,000 Hertz. Ever meet Dick? CI Peter
Does that really require all three tracks to be closed at once? Isn't it possible to leave two open whilst working on one?
no because the revenue trains will be in the way of the work. work trains have to be on the regular local track and workers and materials need to be place around the work train so its impossible.
I saw those giant spools on D lead at E.180 earlier today. They took up about three flats. Looks like a big job ahead.
The NYC subway system is unique in that it never closes. Most other metro subway systems close evey night for regular maintenance. Every job which would be done without notice in other cities requires some type of service alteration to accomodate the necessary work.
"Every job which would be done without notice in other cities requires some type of service alteration to accomodate the necessary work."
But many jobs, such as pouring concrete and installing signals, take a lot longer than the 6 hours available overnight. Other systems certainly have weekend GOs as well. I've sat for 20 minutes on the Blue line in Chicago waiting for our turn at the single track.
"But many jobs, such as pouring concrete and installing signals, take a lot longer than the 6 hours available overnight. Other systems certainly have weekend GOs as well."
Exactly so. London Underground closes about 1-5 a.m., but they have many weekend closures too. When we had our British subtalkers fantrip last weekend, an important central London stretch of line (Farringdon to Baker Street) was out all weekend, as it will have been every weekend for about two months -- because Kings Cross St Pancras station, one of the busiest, if not the busiest, on the system is being rebuilt. The Uxbridge branch was also closed because of track reconstruction, with substitute buses running [and confusion at NY levels among the passengers resulting (8-) ]. In London, escalator reconstruction sometimes causes full-time, all-week service interruptions -- not because the trains can't run, but because the resultant overcrowding on the remaining escalators would be dangerous. So the trains pass through the station in question without stopping.
Like I said, I am no fan of a bus (unless it's a Flxible or one of those articulated jobs), but this G.O. can't be done with trains operating in the area. 2 choices - take the bus or an alternate route.
I agree on the timing, it is unfortunate that they can't restrict this to night-times. It's like what's happening on the south end of the Canarsie line, they went from one-track shuttle to bus service, and there's no direct street route from the Broadway Junction to Rockaway Parkway without diverting from the subway route.
wayne
It is much safer to do elevated structure work during daylight hours.
(It is much safer to do elevated structure work during daylight hours.)
I think the rule is pretty much work on the elevated during the day, work in the tunnels at night (when you won't bother the neighbors).
Really, we talk all the time about how much money and how much time is lost because people don't like shutdowns. I think people have to be able to accept those things for a period of time, if it's better for everyone -- including themselves -- in the long run.
Work in the tunnels is done at night -- and also during the day. There are many all-weekend (12:01am Saturday to 5am Monday or somesuch) underground GO's. Weekday midday GO's are uncommon, though, unlike on the elevated lines.
They should be doing signal replacement. When they did the No.6 Line they did the sections 4 weekends at a time GO. #1 was No #6 service from Hunts Point to Pelham, GO. #3 No 6 service from Westchester SQ and Pelham so the Pelham riders put up with at least 2 Months of weekend shuttle bus rides back in 1998 also messed up Midday service with Parkchester trains starting at 138-3AVE and No Pelham Express.
I remember a G/O like this some years back. I think it was in the late 1980's. They actually had both express and regular bus shuttles. The regular shuttles basically followed the route of the 2/5 train and made the subway stops. The express actually went down the Sheridan and Bruckner Expways.
Talking about this brings back memories of the long Lenox Ave project where late nights and all weekend #2 trains became Lexington Ave expresses and the northern terminal for the #3 train was 110th Street-Lenox Ave.
Wayne
In the aftermath of the Massacre, we've heard grand plans shuffled about the transit hub that, if carried to its ultimate, would link up the LIRR, subway, Metro North and PATH. (It's extremely doubtful they'll get the LIRR and Metro North in there, but.)
I'm wondering why it took a massacre and the destruction of millions of $$$ of real estate for them to come up with this.
Why hadn't some genius thought of it before? At the very least, you could have dug a tunnel to connect the Broadway, Lex and Nassau Street lines while the WTC was still standing.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(In the aftermath of the Massacre, we've heard grand plans shuffled about the transit hub that, if carried to its ultimate, would
link up the LIRR, subway, Metro North and PATH. (It's extremely doubtful they'll get the LIRR and Metro North in there,
but.) I'm wondering why it took a massacre and the destruction of millions of $$$ of real estate for them to come up with this. Why hadn't some genius thought of it before? At the very least, you could have dug a tunnel to connect the Broadway, Lex and Nassau Street lines while the WTC was still standing.)
As for the LIRR and Metronorth, the Regional Plan Association thought of that years ago in its Rx and Metrolink plans. The Metrolink featured a new tunnel to bring in a super-express connector subway from Jamaica and the LIRR (rather than taking part of the subway), then going up Second Avenue on the Second Avenue Subway, then over to Grand Central. The Rx plan has the Second Avenue portion as a suburban only express in addition to the subway local (4 tracks GCT to Downtown), extended that express connector from Grand Central over to Secaucus Transfer in New Jersey, to provide NJT to GCT access, LIRR to Downtown Access, and MetroNorth to Downtown access, all with one easy transfer and without using the subway. The Rx plan included a bunch of other stuff and was dismissed in the Giuliani years.
Why weren't the other things thought of? I guess that if people were forced to do tradeoffs, they aren't really worth it. But when you have a special pot of money just for Downtown, then things that would lose out in any cost benefit analysis move up -- like the South Ferry rehab, the re-rehabilitation of Broadway-Nassau, even the Rector-Rector connection.
Personally, I thing the money should be used for the portion of the Rx plan above, the super-subway from Jamaica to Downtown to Grand Central to Secaucus Transfer. For one thing, since it would be built in association with the Second Avenue, it would make the Second Avenue Subway more likely (other projects make it less likely by diverting funds). With both the Second Avenue taking passengers north of 63rd and the Rx diverting sububanites at and below Grand Central, crowding on the Lex would pretty much go away.
In the aftermath of the Massacre, we've heard grand plans shuffled about the transit hub that, if carried to its ultimate, would link up the LIRR, subway, Metro North and PATH. (It's extremely doubtful they'll get the LIRR and Metro North in there, but.)
I'm wondering why it took a massacre and the destruction of millions of $$$ of real estate for them to come up with this.
Most of the decision-makers had become complacent about the state of downtown transit and indeed about downtown in general. It took a huge event to get them to start thinking about the area's whole nature and development, of which transit is a vital part.
More prosaically, there's the fact that federal assistance has now become available.
...the thread below on the Rockhill Trolley Museum devolved (I would say evolved) into a discussion of CA&E wood cars. I figured I would try my hand at self-promotion and mention a change in the regular service lineup at IRM for 2003. Due to approval at last weekend's Board meeting of funds for rebuilding traction motors, IRM will have a two-car train of wood Chicago Aurora & Elgin interurban cars running one weekend (Saturday & Sunday) every month next year from May to September. I'm not sure which weekend it will be, but if anyone's interested I can keep you posted. This ought to be fun - no offense to "L" fans, but 4000's get kinda monotonous after a while!
This also got me to thinking... the only other museum I can think of that can field a two-car train of wood electric cars is Branford, with its BMT gate cars. Even these don't run in regular service. Can anyone think of any other two-car wood trains in museum service? (Trolleyville is a no-go; I heard they shut down their substation for good.)
Frank Hicks
That is truly thrilling news. If IRM is honoring the finest railway that ever existed on this planet, the Chicago Aurora & Elgin, then I'm joining, which I've been thinking about for some time.
Some years ago (an ERA 4th of July convention in San Francisco?) I visited the Bay Area museum at Rio Vista, and recall the New York wood gate cars, which came west to Richmond during World War II. I don't think they were in operating condition, though. Can anyone from the Bay Area comment?
George:
IRM is definitely honoring the CA&E - this year has been full of CA&E-oriented stuff, since it's the line's 100th anniversary of construction. The three restored CA&E interurbans were on the 2002 IRM calendar, July 4th was "CA&E Day" with three cars in service and a reenactment of the end of service in 1957, and the next issue of "Rail & Wire" newsletter (coming out shortly) will have a color pictorial of the CA&E. Next year's operation of the wood cars will nominally be part of the 50th Anniversary Celebration (IRM was founded in 1953). If you do choose to join up, I'll try and e-mail you in the spring so that you can come out one day when we're operating the cars.
Also, I recently was notified that only one of the ex-New York wood "L" cars at Rio Vista is currently operational.
Frank Hicks
Are there freight bypass tracks at Jamaica Station on the LIRR/NYA or do the thru freights travel thru the platformed tracks? And was freight (Outside of baggage) Loaded/Unloaded at Jamaica? (This question applies both to LIRR and current NYA freight service.
All the freights I've seen go through Jamaica have used the southernmost tracks well away from the platforms.
They use track 11 which runs behind Hall tower to connect to the Montauk Branch west of Jamaica. That is connected by the Dunton Extension Freight Track to get to Montauk.
I have some advice for anyone going on the March of Dimes trip Sunday. Bring your own lunch. Last time I went, we only got an hour for lunch and I had to get a sandwich in this rotten little deli. Plus, it's going to rain so I'd rather just eat in the station. I believe Bill Wall lets you eat on the train too. Does anyone know the exact itinerary? Are we going to Canarsie via the Williamsburg bridge again? Hope so.
With all of the pruning of tracks and switches at B'way Junction, is that move still possible?
If it is this week end then NO. There is only a Shuttle Train runing from the Junction to Rockaway. Mybe they will go all the way down the J line to Jamica.
Robert
I think I read on the go that the trip will be visiting Mertopolitan Ave. Hopefully the photographers can get a shot of a D- type/Steeplecab across the platform from an R143.
I thought the route was to CIY and then out on the Eastern Div consisting of the loop around ENY yards. Last year 8/26/01 the MOD trip went to Metropolitan and back prior to going to SBK RR. Would rather go to JAM.
Last year on the return from Metropolitan I got a shot of the NYC skyline. If you look at the pic you see the window frame on the right side of the shot and then the WTC towers....Who would have thought that 16 days later the towers wouldn't be there. Don't know how I'd feel going to Met and remebering the picture.
The D Types just went out to Jamaica on the Memorial Day fantrip. If I remember this Sunday's GO correctly, you will loop ENYD as well as visit Metropolitan Ave. In addition to giving you a chance to view what is in the yard, it will also get the SteepleCab facing the right direction to return over the WillyB.
On the south side of Jamaica Ave. just east of Merrick Blvd., and above 2 womens clothing stores, is the old TA facility from the #15 Jamaica line. The windows are boarded up with dried out plywood, looking not very secure. There is a vertical sliding metal door to the left of the stores which appears would give access to the area. The mosaic tiles near the roof line make it a dead give away of this being the old dispatchers office, crew area, signal maintainers quarters, etc. Does anybody from the TA know if the TA still owns the property?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers! The building is actually located at the the southeast corner of 165 St and Jamaica Ave. One set of stairs coming off the el entered this building on the second floor (Jamaica Ave side) and exited to street level on the 165 St side. I'm sorry I can't answer your question as to who owns the building now, but I know there was a furniture store on the ground floor 2 or 3 years ago. The upper floors appeared to be in good condition, but vacant. The second floor opening where people entered from the el had been replaced with windows. BTW, another remnant of the el is still alive and well - the relatively new (built in 1966) power substation at 143 Place and Jamaica Ave. It now feeds the Archer Ave subway.
I recall reading some info about the arrival of one of the cars for this new system. I remember seeing the car being unloaded from an airplane. Does anyone know if that was posted here on subtalk or somewhere else. Thank you in advance!
Troy
Yes, there was a SubTalk thread on delivery of the first SNJLRTS car.
Thank you for the quick response!
Troy
Can you believe this? Here are two news articles, one from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and the other from the Charlotte Observer, published days apart. Both stories deal with citizens griping because of rail plans. They're not griping against them, but griping because their neighborhoods aren't getting rail lines! I take this as a good sign, but I'm not sure whether to take this as a shift in attitudes toward transportation nationally. Does anyone else have any insight?
(And yes, I'd be even happier if the people griping got the rail lines they want, but it's a start, I suppose.)
Mark
Knowing Charlotte's demographics as I do (my parents live in Concord), the rail is proposed for the prosperous areas where people won't get out of the cars to save their souls and the bus routes are proposed for the industrial and poorer residential areas where people are dependent on transit. It's a political ploy; there won't be any light rail in Charlotte in my lifetime.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, the story about St. Louis was along those lines...a suburb was getting the rail line, while poorer neightborhoods in north St. Louis weren't getting such service. While I welcome building of new rail lines that get suburban commuters out of cars for environmental reasons, there are still economic justice issues to be worked out in many areas when it comes to transit service to poor neighborhoods. I can think of the lawsuit filed by riders in impoverished parts of Los Angeles against the LA MTA, demanding adequeate bus service, or the large wedge-shaped swath of southern Boston that has no rail transit, either.
Mark
Interesting postscript on St. Louis.
After the first LR line was built there was intense interest on the part of BiState Transit to run a second line into St. Charles County, which neighbors St. Louis County. St. Charles is a formally rural county which in the 1980s and 90s was the fastest growing county in Missouri. Much of the growth of St. Charles was due to white flight from north St. Louis County, as blacks from St. Louis City moved west.
Now east of St. Louis City is the Mississippi River. On the east side of the river is Illinois, specifically, the town of East St. Louis and a few smaller towns that were either heavily dependent upon the cattle industry (lots of slaughtering plants) or oil. These towns, particularly East St. Louis, used to be middle class (until the early 1960s) but are now almost 100% black.
Seperating St. Charles City and County from St. Louis County is the Missouri River. For many years there was an old auto bridge (the Rock Road bridge) crossing the river. It was in use until about 10 or so years ago, although largely supplanted by the modern I-70 bridge.
MetroLink (our LR system) was largely built on existing and upgraded trackage or ROW. The plan was to extend a second rail line to St. Charles, using existing trackage for about 80% of the run (some of which would have been the old St. Louis Public Service line out to Creve Coeur Lake). The line would have crossed the Missouri using the old (and rehabilitated) Rock Road bridge.
There is a tremendous amount of vehicular traffic heading from St. Charles into St. Louis in the morning rush hour and a reverse in the afternoon. A LRV line made eminent sense.
Because of the financing method proposed, a vote was held on the issue. It required a simple majority from each county to pass. The measure passed in St. Louis but failed in St. Charles.
Why did it fail? Largely because opponents publically stated they were afraid blacks from East St. Louis would ride out on the LRVs, steal and rob in St. Charles, and then ride back to East St. Louis!
Ridiculous, no? But the people who fled north St. Louis County in a white flight bought this arguement hook, line and sinker.
Can you picture this? Two muggers ride the streetcar for 1+ hour to commit mayhem and then patiently wait, with stolen TVs and VCRs in hand, at the St. Charles terminal for a streetcar back to East St. Louis!!
About a year later BiState tried again, with a second vote. This one failed again in St. Charles. To make sure it would never be proposed again, the St. Charles City Council passed a resolution to tear down the bridge (it had been closed to vehicular traffic for about three years due to old age). And so it was.
So what's happening now? There is so much traffic on I-70 that a new bridge and secondary route from St. Charles to St. Louis County is under construction. Cost is in the hundreds and hundreds of millions. And let's not even talk about all the pollution those cars will spew! All of which could have been avoided (or at least deferred) had a light rail line been constructed.
To put this in context to you guys in the east, imagine that the LIRR didn't go out to Suffolk but ended in Nassau. The RR tries to extend the line but Suffolk prevents it from happening, because they're afraid blacks from NYC will come out to Suffolk to steal and commit mayhem.
Crazy, eh?
Interesting story. This fear of inner city minorities' using rail transit to wreak havoc in the suburbs (colloquially known as "loot rail") stems in part from a misinterpretation of a situation involving the Baltimore light rail system. Some years ago, probably around the middle or late 1980's, the system reached the suburb of Linthicum, near BWI airport. A major surge in break-ins occurred soon after the light rail arrived. Local residents were quick to blame the crime wave on inner-city Baltimore residents who now had a quick and easy way to reach the town. All this garnered quite a bit of attention, and soon became a rallying point for anti-transit people nationwide.
Yet things weren't as simple as they seemed. It was proven before long that the Linthicum break-ins were perpetrated by local youths, not by light-rail riders from Baltimore. The connection between the crime wave and the light rail's arrival was almost certainly nothing but a coincidence. As you might expect, however, the disproving of the transit=crime theory didn't get much attention.
ah, the ironies. How does your "Consuela" get to your house to clean with no transit? Readers of the LA Times during the MTA strike were treated to stories of families whose servants couldn't get to work.
I can see an argument against LR because with a terminus, there would be a lot of commuter parking and quite a spill out onto local streets during morning and evening rush hour. But fear of blacks riding the LRV an hour+ to commit crimes? Ridiculous.
One of the biggest proponents on favor of the construction was the (then) Station Casino. Missouri has riverboat gambling and the location of the planned terminus would have been just a couple of blocks from the casino. Didn't work out, but...
Illinois also has riverboat gambling. The Casino Queen, in East St. Louis, IL, is located just a couple of blocks from a MetroLink stop. The stop on the east end of the Eads Bridge, the first RR bridge across the Mississippi. It was rehabilitated as part of the MetroLink route. This stop gets quite a lot of passenger traffic from people staying in St. Louis city hotels.
What does the Y in you new term means?
What does the Y in you new term means?
Yes
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What does the Y in you new term means?
In today's New York Times (9/20), an article discussing how bad the Cross Bronx Expressway is and a study of what to do about it contained the following paragraph:
The state is thinking of building a road adjacent to nearly two-thirds of the expressway for public transportation and local commuters. It is also toying with the thought of reopening two long-dormant tunnels at 178th and 179th Streets that lead to the George Washington Bridge. The tunnels would uncork the Highbridge Interchange, the sclerotic traffic artery where the Cross Bronx and the Major Deegan meet.
The emphasis above is mine.
I thought these tunnels were just an urban legend. Do they really exist or do they just lead to 76th Street in Queens ;) Anyone have information about their past history?
Also, unless this "adjacent road' is elevated, my amateur eye doesn't see any room to place this adjacent road. Isn't there already a service road for parts of the expressway (that obviously isn't doing its job)?
--Mark
they exist. it is not a legand.
if you walk around the backside of the pool in high bridge park, down that exit ramp, you'll come across an area in to the left right next ot the highway where one of the two tunnels is - the other is on the opposite side of the highway. both are sealed up.
on the GWB side, the southern tunnel is used for DOT truck storage.
...and if you got to nycroads.com - i forget the url, but there is more information on it there.
I can concur, having grown up it that area during the construction, they ARE there.
Peace,
ANDEE
According to the 1949 Hagstrom Atlas, the tunnels run under 178th & 179th between Amsterdam Avenue and GW Bridge near Fort Washington Avenue. The tunnels were connected to the Harlem River Drive.
HERE is a link w/pic, courtesy of NYCROADS.COM Enjoy!
Peace,
ANDEE
I knew I saw it somewhere
...and if you got to nycroads.com - i forget the url
Are you serious? Or did you just forget the URL of the page on the Trans-Manhattan Expressway?
obviously i meant the exact url of the page that speaks of these tunnels. duh.
Mark: Those tunnels are real. I remember riding through the eastbound one sometime in the 50's. I was over that way in the 70's and they seemed to be intact and used for storage of MOW vehicles.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Here's the former eastbound tunnel exit at the ramps to Amsterdam Avenue and the Harlem River Drive:
The Trans-Manhattan Expressway doesn't have a service road. It's flanked by 178th Street and 179th Street, underneath which lie the two tunnels.
I have never used that exit! Thanks for pointing that out!
--Mark
That old ramp is hard to see from behind the wheel of a car. I first noticed it from Amsterdam Avenue itself, when I was looking to take photos such as that one.
At least three of the four tunnel portals are plainly visible from the road.
I see from the O-gauge RR website that some people have received their models of the R-36 subway set.
It looks as though they got most of the details right: the blind ends, the lowered door windows, the rubber gaskets around the door edges and door window frames.
These look like their nicest IRT models yet!
From the pics I have seen they sure do look great. Definitely the best set yet. You won't want to miss out on these babies. I can't wait to pick mine up tonight. Looks like they nailed it!
Saw them up close & personal at Nassau Hobbies. Charlie has them in his front window & with a little encouragement he'll start them up.
The BMTman & I watched as they went from Times Sq. to the World's Fair.
These are beautiful models. I picked mine up from Charlie Fri. Night. MTH really nailed these, and the details are amazing.
Chris C. Shaffer
Yeah, I was there last Friday with Thurston. Seems some 'Top Secret' projects are in the works from MTH for the 100th Anniversary of the NYC subway system for 2004....nothing concrete, but heard some RARE cars will be reproduced in a special set for the event.
When you say RARE, are you referring to possibly Low-V's? :o)
#9308 - #7 Times Square Local
Uh...something even rarer...but you are close :)
Hmm...give me my BMT Triplexes! 8)
Why Triplexes? They're not even that old. How about BMT Gate Elevated cars! :o)
I'm with you on that.
That would cause me to get my second MTH set.
Do you realize that they have produced six different sets, and now they are offering a seventh, but in two different color schemes?
Well....if it is a 100th Anniversary car...... A Gibbs HV car???
As we used ta say in Brooklyn....give dat man a See-gar!
Yes, a Gibbs car is going to be PART of the special 4-car set. Apparently, things are still hush-hush, but the set will be made up of four different IRT cars...the Gibbs being one of them. At least one or two other cars MAY be a re-issue of the Redbirds and/or the R-17's in their original delivery schemes (In that case, 17's having been Maroon, and the R-21/22s in Kale green).
Also heard that to get more 'mileage' out of the new tooling involved for the Gibbs car, MTH MAY issue them in a slightly modified version as the LIRR MP-41 cars....this is just a rumor but would be a VERY NICE addition to any NYC area layout!
More details to come as news becomes available...
If they only put one of car of each type in the set---oy vey!! I may have to buy several! I couldn't just have ONE Gibbs car!! As for the R-17 or R-21 in other colors: great idea! I'd love to be able to run a 1970's "hodge-podge" train--R-17's, R-21's, R-12's (coming soon), even a "World's Fair" R-36 (some were transferred to the #1 train in the 70's)---all in the same train, all with different paint schemes.
Just as MTH will be offering a single-car yellow R-17 work train add on....I'll bet they could sell quite a few single-car re-issued R-17's and R-21's if they offered them in other liveries: green, red, maroon, white, or even grafitti-splashed!
[Just as MTH will be offering a single-car yellow R-17 work train add on....]
Wonder how many non-rt dads are going to buy it thinking it's a class 1 RxR MOW crew car ? Would look cool on the back of a freight.
Pics....perhaps?
I've always received interest into train management or whatever you call it....
May I modestly request links to get into the fun world of 'O-Gauge' train modeling world?
Ya know, stuff like how much will you need and etc.?
Any link to the R36 Models? I'm curious.
Go to the www.ogaugerr.com website, and then go to the discussion forum. There are several subway-related threads, including one guy's link to his own site where he posted pictures.
I am obliged.
It was only a matter of time before they hit e-bay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1768876676
NY1 STORY about this mornings shooting on the 2/5 line.
Peace,
ANDEE
Incredible! Stupidity at an all time low.
-Stef
You high all time HIGH?
Whoops, I meant, "Do you mean at an all time HIGH?"
LOL .... you're both right ... Stupidity at it's best, should make Lettermans "Stupid Human Tricks"...if ther is such a thing.
Peace,
ANDEE
Betcha they play the shit out it in Saturdays tabloids. You know the one's. HEH
Peace,
ANDEE
My, my...no need to swear!
I'll need to clean out your mouth with soap!;-)
With all due respect to my Bronx colleagues, Stef and Subwaysuf, we haven't heard much neagative about the Bronx lately and hopefully it won't start now. The way to insure that the odds of a violent outbreak doesn't become a habit in that borough is for the authorities to be vigilant and crack down hard on all punks who are trying to reverse the great progress made in the reduction in crime during the Giuliani Administations-------the hell of what the ACLU says or the liberal handwringers. New York is a pretty safe place to travel nowadays and we don't need assholes ruining for everybody. I hope this turns out to be an isolated incident, but if there isn't a hard crackdown on crime again New York could revert back to the 70's and 80's when people were afraid to walk the streets and even more afraid of even coming to the city as tourists.
No, not his comment in general, but the way he swore. I could care less about how he looks at the situation. Just wanted to clear that up.
Well that's my concern, Mayor Wimpberg is cutting police and seems to turn a blind eye to quality of life crimes. The total opposite of Guiliani.
Giuliani was mayor when we had an ECONOMY and no matter how crackpot the scheme (like a free stadium for Steingrabber) there was money. Bloomberg inherited a collapsed economy, some additional expenses from that little criminal act at the southern tip of Manhattan and deficits out the wazoo (curiously left behind by Giuliani) ... if folks would go to work, pay taxes, who knows? Maybe the city can afford a few cops. But without money coming in, he doesn't exactly have money to spend. Welcome to the financial realities once again that resulted in Beame and Dinkins getting the blame for folks not earning enough to pay taxes to keep the city going.
I'm sure Mark Green would have done a MUCH better job ... not.
Based on the scant facts in the story, this seems to justify cracking down on minor offenses such as turnstile jumping, as turnstile jumpers may turn out to be cop killers.
Based on the scant facts in the story, this seems to justify cracking down on minor offenses such as turnstile jumping, as turnstile jumpers may turn out to be cop killers.
Quite true. I wouldn't be surprised if the suspect had some reason why he really, really didn't want to be stopped by the police - for example, he may have had outstanding felony warrants or have been carrying contraband.
"Quite true. I wouldn't be surprised if the suspect had some reason why he really, really didn't want to be stopped by the police - for example, he may have had outstanding felony warrants or have been carrying contraband."
This is possible.. But it also possible that the officers acted out of fear.. as they usually do. With a name like santana, it becomes clear and clear as I read the story.
N Bwy
Don't believe in everything you read until you have all the facts in front of you! (Unless you feel comfortable with everything the police does against the the santana's, amadou's and johnson's of the world.) Or you at least give the "suspect" the benefit of the doubt.
If it comes to believing at first glance what "Santana" or whoever says and that of a policeman I'm going to go with the law enforcement officer every time. You are right about getting all the facts, but that sometimes lead handwringers to dispute the facts when they come out and make all sorts of excuses for a pack of punks who would better served if they all jumped off a cliff. Out here we call that neighborhood renewal.
However, since you are an "N" man, don't take this post too personal. You are still a Sea Beach guy to me, and therefore, a trusted colleague. We're still outnumbered by the Brighton Boys, you know.
If I were the police officer in question who had his/her service revolver lifted by a dirtbag regardless what his name is (Goldberg, Sullivan or Santana) I'd be quite thankful to have a partner who would take whatever action deemed necessary to protect both our lives. And if the idiot that was shot was in fact carrying contraband or had outstanding arrest warrants out on him it would have made sense for him to panhandle for the $1.50 fare and avoid suspicion. Let's not pull the race card to protect the scum of the earth. It's getting a little old.
"I wouldn't be surprised if the suspect had some reason why he really, really didn't want to be stopped by the police"
If I really, really didn't want to draw the police's attention to me, I would pay my $1.50 fare!
Hahahahahaha ... bottler! :)
"Based on the scant facts in the story, this seems to justify cracking down on minor offenses such as turnstile jumping, as turnstile jumpers may turn out to be cop killers."
YEP! it also ignores the other side.. because the man is "unconscious"
N Bwy
Mr. N Broadway, the guy would not be unconcscious if he hadn't broken the law. The law. You don't break the law and expect to have everyone just give the punk a pass.
N bway line, do you have any clue as to why the Police stop fare beaters? Look back to the early eighties when Transit was more like Rikers Island in a tunnel, with over 18,000 serious felonies(rapes, robberrys, and murders), and the Police did not care how you got into the system. Last year there were under 3,000 felonies for the entire system. Why the huge decrease? Transit Police (not the NYPD) led by men like Chief Bratton and LT Jack Maple (developer of Compstat) discovered that people who came into the subways to commit crimes don't pay the fare. Even a few months ago a fare beater stopped at 42 st on the A was discovered to be wanted for a double murder in Los Angles. That is why fare beaters are stopped.
P.S. Fare beating is a class A misdemeanor, sect 165.15 sub 03 of the New York State Penal law.
I agree fare beaters should be stopped and check... but to be physically restraint... that's to me is unnecessary...
N Bwy
"but to be physically restraint... that's to me is unnecessary..."
Okay and what do you do if they refuse to stop? Perhaps you'd like to post your list of crimes for which police should use no force at all, AS A LAST RESORT.
Hey Dude, please tell N Broadway to cut this nonsense out. He's digging himself into a deeper hole and I don't have a clue why he's taking such a stance.
Fred, first rule of holes:
When in one - stop digging!
I don't understand N-B'ways stance either. Perhaps members of his family are doing time or he's had unpleasant dealings with the police, himself - Oh but that would be making assumptions without any evidence. Hey, I know, perhaps N Bway is really Al "Slim-Shady" Sharpton incognito on subtalk.
Well that's about as good a reason as I could come up with but not as funny. Maybe N Broadway Line will come clean and tell us of some bad experience he or a member of his family might have had with the police. It could explain a lot.
"Hey, I know, perhaps N Bway is really Al "Slim-Shady" Sharpton incognito on subtalk."
Why it got to get racial? I'm pointing out that the police is responsible for public safety.. In this case, instead of protecting the public, they almost caused a stampede that could have resulted in life lost. Besides that, they could have shot anyone who was using that station that day. How do you explain that? You can't, that's why you got to play the race card.. Because you have not proven the police was right.
N Bwy
Two things:
First - when the criminal grabbed for and took the officer's gun, he was no longer a fare evader. He was a felon. Should the police have just let him go or perhaps asked him politely to return the gun and all would be forgiven?
Second: No where in my post did I mention race. I sarcasticly mentioned that some of your relatives or even you may have had previous run-ins with the police. Are YOU saying that that is indicitive of any specific race?
Lets move on... I have already said, I'm not sure about the facts that was put in front of me. Which means, I questions the police statement. Not that it is right or wrong.
N Bwy
Ok Broadway, on another subject. Are you interested in riding the rails with a bunch of us from October 11-16? I will be in town and would like you to join us. I'm not sure how many are actually going to finally show up but it could range from four to 12. Anyway you are invited and hope you can make it.
I see no one is answering Fred, including Fred to E Mail Me
Thanks for the offer, but I have to see what my schedule is... particularly the week before.
N Bwy
>>> Besides that, they could have shot anyone who was using that station that day. <<<
But they didn't. That's one of the reasons police officers are granted the authority to carry weapons, and try very hard to keep anyone else from taking the weapons away from them. Since only the person trying to take the gun was shot, I would consider it good gun control.
Tom
I did not speak of whether the suspect was commanded to stop, I wanted to know why the suspect was physical subdue after jumping the turnstile. And why was this method used.
N Broadway
>>> I agree fare beaters should be stopped and check... but to be physically restraint... that's to me is unnecessary... <<<
Once you agree that the stop is proper, the degree of restraint necessary depends entirely on the person being stopped.
Tom
Some people jump because their card messes up and there is no agent there to help (not that this excuses farebeating). Of course if you card doesn't work at night and there is no agent, what then (there are even cases where the turnstile could even take money off the card in an error)? I am just bringing up some cases as to why people jump.
On buses at least there is a driver that can (somewhat) deal with certain problems, but on the subway, well
"Some people jump because their card messes up and there is no agent there to help"
Bullshit !!! If there is a low turnstile to pass over, there is an agent in the booth. It there is no agent, there is a high-wheel that can't be jumped. Get your facts straight!!!
Late nights #5 train......no agent
Right Sid. As Mao Tse Tung once said (and I use something from him because it is appropriate to the current situation): "A spark can start a prarie fire." Anything that violates the law and threatens the safety of innocent citizens must be crushed in its infancy. If not what passes as a minor offense becomes bigger and bigger until fare jumping is replaced by theft, assault, rape and murder---which will leave the liberal hand wringers talking about the root causes while innocent people become greater victims. Crush it now.
Right on! Right on!
damn i was going to shoot the #5 express today ...
was too beat from shooting digital stills on the #7 yesterday !!
( need 2 loose some weight ) .............no ....lol
>>> [From the article] Neither officer was shot, but one suffered a minor leg injury. Both officers have been hospitalized for trauma. <<<
Were these police officers or boy scouts? It seems like they are giving the force too much sensitivity training if both officers had to be hospitalized for "trauma" after the shooting when neither of them was hit, and the person who was shot was only wounded.
Tom
[From the article] Neither officer was shot, but one suffered a minor leg injury. Both officers have been hospitalized for trauma.
Were these police officers or boy scouts? It seems like they are giving the force too much sensitivity training if both officers had to be hospitalized for "trauma" after the shooting when neither of them was hit, and the person who was shot was only wounded.
A clever way to get some sick leave, perhaps?
The policemen probably felt that would be a victim of the police review board that likes to place the blame on officers when in fact they were only uphilding the law. You see what the actions of a few rotten cops have done to the vast vast vast vast majority of police officers that are an outstanding example of what is great about New York.
Let's see if G-d forbid you ever shoot someone if you are traumatized by it.
>>> Let's see if G-d forbid you ever shoot someone if you are traumatized by it. <<<
If I were put in the position where I would have to shoot someone, and the reason for shooting were valid, it might affect me, but I doubt that I would have to be hospitalized. I would assume the police department training prepares officers not only in the technical aspects of weapons handling, but also prepares them to be psychologically ready to take a life if necessary.
Here in California a few years back we had a tragedy when an officer on burglary call shot and killed a seven year old child who popped up in a darkened room and pointed a toy revolver at him. The incident so affected him that he ended up on a medical retirement, and years of psychological rehabilitation. That I can understand.
In the incident reported, the officers were struggling with the suspect for control of one of their weapons. To me that is an extremely valid reason for shooting him. If anything, my big worry would be that the shooting team would find that the shooting was not within policy. Maybe I am too unimaginative, but I would have considered the suspect the one responsible for his injuries in that instance, not myself. Hospitalization of the two officers seems pretty extreme. If I were to be a future partner of one of those officers, I would worry about him being too shy about using lethal force when necessary.
Tom
Although the article says hospitalized in this case I assume it is the emergency room, in other words treated & released. I sincerely doubt they were admitted.
All that trama stuff that the cops go through is a bunch of bull.. It's just another press release to put a human face on something that was wrong. And, to convince the public that it wasn't the cops intensions to hurt anyone..
BULL!
The mere fact they will shoot at someone 8 times in a crowded subway is a call for discipline action.
N Bwy
they shot him twice!!!!!
once in the side, once in the foot!
IT WAS COMPLETELY MERITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THEY STOLE HIS GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they do not mean to hurt people... they aim to disable, for their and others safety!!!!!!!!!
OK... a bit to many pronouns...
The cops shot him Twice!!!
once in the side, once in the foot!
IT WAS COMPLETELY MERITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the guy stole the cops gun!!!!!!!
the cops do not mean to hurt people... they aim to disable, for their and others safety!!!!!!!!!
"THEY STOLE HIS GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they do not mean to hurt people... they aim to disable, for their and others safety!!!!!!!!!"
First, I think you meant to say that he stole the (female) officer's gun.
Second, and I'm not 100% sure about this but it is my understanding that police are taught that when they fire their weapon, it should not be in an attempt to wound. That kind of stuff is better left to old western movies. In reality, in a physical struggle:
1) Your aim may not be as accurate as on a pistol range.
2) In a physical confrontation, with adrenalin high, wounding may not stop a perp.
read my response post... i cleared it up
"First, I think you meant to say that he stole the (female) officer's gun."
And you really believe that? hmmmm What about that police officer who shot that 9 year old in brooklyn because he said he saw a gun.. Than there was another case of a cop shooting a 11 year old child. During the trial, his defense was temporary insanity..
The bottom line is! the cops lie.. to justify the means..
Again, forgive me for sounding exasperated but: Look, stupid, how does one isolated event in the past justify one in the present. If it does, what about Mumia & Larry Davis? Get your shit together, friend. Your straining everyone's patience and what little credibility you had.
Hey Dude, I'm just about at the end of my rop with this guy. As far as this post is concerned I'm ready to sign off. I don't think I'm ever going to get through to this guy. A pity. He always seemed like a real stand up guy in the past.
Fred, don't give up yet. I truly believe that no one is totally hopeless. Besides, he's not completely useless. He can always serve as a bad example...
Yeah.. Lets move on... I've already explain myself.. not to offend anyone, but to try to be in someone else's shoes.. However, it won't happen with BUSH in the white house.
Chow.
N Bwy
Shooting someone in a crowded subway for just jumping a turnstile is ludicrous, dangerous and totally insane!!!
N Bwy
not in the circumstances!!!
Forgive me for sounding exasperated but; Hey stupid, he was not shot for fare evasion. He was shot for assaulting a police office, stealing the officer's gun and fleeing.
My question Dude is why Broadway keeps forgetting that Santana was grabbing the officer's gun? That made it a real crime and put the officer's life at risk. I'm becoming frustrated that Broadway Line can't seem to fathom that. Are we speaking the same language?
To paraphrase Forest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid posts."
"Forgive me for sounding exasperated but; Hey stupid, he was not shot for fare evasion."
You just lost your arguement when you called me stupid.. and currently making preparations to put you on my killfile list.
N Bwy
Oh, please don't put me in your kill-file list. really, please don't do it. Don't do it at least until you've read the rest of my posts to you................
Eight times? What kind of fact is that? Were you there? Do you know what actually happened there, Broadway?
Cops most certainly DO go through trauma after shooting someone, especially if it wasn't intentional. They are human beings too. Maybe you should spend some time as a cop, before you go and make serious accusations that cops are only out to hurt people. Now that's a bunch of bull!
As a Californian planning a trip to his native city on October 10 I'll give you my reading on this whole thing if anyone's interested. There's a shooting in the Bronx, a robbery on the "6" and I read a couple of weeks back of a women either beaten, raped or both. This sort of shit has to be stopped likity split. If not there is going to be redux of what happened under Beame and Dinkins, crime running rampant and citizens and tourists afraid to partake in anything after the sun goes down. That will be bad for New York City and money that would go a long way into putting badly needed funds into the economy will go elsewhere. Stop these crimes and crack down hard now or New York will be worse off for it.
Fred, I couldn't agree more. We do need to crack down hard. We don't need to go back to the bad old days of the 70s, 80s and early 90s when crime was out of control. People were fleeing NY in droves at that time. That will almost certainly happen again if we don't crack down.
Fred, good luck with planning your trip to NY. The one thing you'll be able to count on is that on weekends, the N is now express, even though it doesn't go past Pacific.
The N as an express. That is such pleasant music to my ears. Is the route now from 86th Street to Pacific? If so, I guess it's ok. I never like the idea it went to Astoria anyway. That was 4th Avenue Local territory and by now everyone knows how I felt about that line.
Yes, it's Pacific to 86th, but it's only that way late nights and weekends. Monday thru Friday 6 AM to midnight, the N runs to local Astoria and thru the tunnel you love to hate. But it makes no 4th Avenue local stops.
"That will almost certainly happen again if we don't crack down."
What about the ENRONS of the WORLD.. and all the crime happening on wall street? And, what about the crime happening in the mostly affluent suburbs?
To some of "us" the belief is crime only happens in certain communities.. And if the person doesn't represent a particular grouping, it isn't considered crime.
What about the crime against humanity --- and those who occupied this land prior to the "new" arrivals? Who is going serve time in this case. The unfortunate answer is, no one.. Only GOD knows.
N Bwy
What about the ENRONS of the WORLD.. and all the crime happening on wall street? And, what about the crime happening in the mostly affluent suburbs?
Enron and Wall Street-style crime is a serious problem. That cannot be denied. "White collar" crime does not, however, cause people to stay away from New York and other large cities out of fear, and therefore does not result in urban economic decline and decay, in sharp contrast to street crime.
"White collar" crime effects more people than the crimes innercity youth are involved in.
And if it wasn't for "white collar" crime, many of the innercity crime wouldn't be happening.
N Bwy
If you are talking about Enron and some of those filthy bastard CEO's, then we are on the same page. I wish they would send those bums to devil's island. But the point concerning the police still stands. They have a job to do and they risk their lives every time they do it. When I have gotten a traffic ticket or was told by the police to move along I would momentarily get mad but would comply. However, my anger subsided when I realized they would risk their lives for me. Enough said.
Dinkins had nothing to do with the rise in crime, KOCH did.. And 3 terms in office proves my point immensely! Besides, Dinkins was the mayor who set the vehicles up to reduce crime. Unfortunately, not until Guiliani become the mayor, your favorite mayor (and I know why), crime started to decrease. But crime was decrease all across the country.. And this had more to do with economics, than better police procedures.
N Bwy
So Dinkins "set the vehicles up to reduce crime" but the drop in crime had "more to do with economics, than better police procedures". So, in other words, Dinkins did little or nothing to lower the crime rate which is exactly what Fred was saying. You'd be a hoot on any high school debating team.
You are right N Broadway, Giuliani was my favorite mayor and you know why. OK, why? I will admit it if you can guess why. I'll even throw you a hint. It certainly wasn't because we're both Yankee fans because I hate that team with a passion. But go ahead. If you are right and I run into you when I'm in New York, I'll buy you lunch. Honest.
Well Bloomberg may be a conservative but his police policies are right out the guide to liberals.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one worrying that the "bad old days" are makin a comeback with a wimp in City Hall.
Let's see if G-d forbid you ever shoot someone if you aren't traumatized by it.
The perp survived? What a pity. Too bad the officer didn't have better aim.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You wouldn't say that if that was your son.. Or if it was an accident.. Or a made up story... Or, unless you are a police officer who have a grip to venge.
But why put the onus on the police officer? Why not onthe guy who broke the law? If he hadn't broken the law he wouldn't be in such deep shit right about now.
"But why put the onus on the police officer? Why not onthe guy who broke the law? If he hadn't broken the law he wouldn't be in such deep shit right about now."
Still don't give them the right for the cops to shoot him.. Plus, who knows, the cop probably covered the incident up for his own sake.
N Bwy
You're very close to being the first poster on my killfile in 4 years posting with your stupid, prejudicial, stereotypical anti-police views.
Still don't give them the right for the cops to shoot him.. Plus, who knows, the cop probably covered the incident up for his own sake.
If it's true that Santana tried to wrestle away a gun from one of the cops, he can't really complain that he got shot. What in the world did he expect - that the cop would calmly let him take the gun?
The cop should have yelled, "Do Over" and asked Mr. Santana to return the gun. Better still they should not have been doing their jobs in the first place. N Broadway Line has the right idea. Let the criminals do as they please.
"N Broadway Line has the right idea. Let the criminals do as they please."
Reverse psychology! I like that, but that isn't what I said. Not in that context. I was speaking about the story that the cops gave to the media. Whether the story is true or not, only GOD knows.. and will hand down the final punishment when all fails.
N Bwy
Has Mr. Santana said he didn't attempt to jump the turnstile? Did he say that he did not resist arrest? Did he deny struggling with the officer for her gun?
It would seem to me that until Mr. Santana or his lawyer make those charges, you are assuming things that have not yet even been alleged. One conclusion we could draw, then, is that you are anti-police and pro-criminal. (of course: only GOD knows.. and will hand down the final punishment) Prepare thy self.
T-Dude
"Has Mr. Santana said he didn't attempt to jump the turnstile? Did he say that he did not resist arrest? Did he deny struggling with the officer for her gun?"
The mere fact that someone gets arrested for jumping a turnstile is a call for protest. He should have gotten a ticket.
Anyway, it appears that the police over-reacted and should be discipline immediately. But like always, they will get away with it.
N Bwy
no... they didnt overreact. they probably would have only ticketed him, but... SANTANA GRABBED THE COPS GUN
"no... they didnt overreact. they probably would have only ticketed him, but... SANTANA GRABBED THE COPS GUN"
Grabbing the gun is what the officers claimed, and what the media printed.. I still haven't heard from the "suspect" yet.
By the way, I knew of several people who were pepper spray for jumping the turnstile, so often times the police are over reacting.
All I'm saying is there is a possibility that the police office acted upon fear because Santana was a person of color... and since America is such a racist country, you can't put pass that race could have played a role in the shooting.
N Bwy
All I'm saying is there is a possibility that the police office acted upon fear because Santana was a person of color
Do you in fact know Santana's race? It's a Spanish-sounding name, and persons of Hispanic ancestry can be of just about any racial background imaginable.
He could also be SPANISH (as in from the Iberian Peninsula) and thus completely white.
He could be a Sephardic Jew.
Very possible. Unless you met him and also knew his family background, religion, etc, you couldn't know.
He could also be SPANISH (as in from the Iberian Peninsula) and thus completely white.
He could be a Sephardic Jew.
Or born in Latin America, but of full European ancestry (e.g. Fidel Castro).
Regardless of their racial background, hispanics are still preceived as "people of color".. That's why they are in a separate category. Besides, anytime someone gets shot by the police, that person is sure to have some degree of melanin on the surface of their skin.
N Bwy
N Bway...you display your young age. Before EEOC, racial definition on employment forms was caucasian/negro/other. Hispanics come from many backgrounds. Post EEOC, Hispanics changed race to take advantage until an entirely new slot opened up...Hispanic opened an entirely new can of worms many regret to this day....Blanco, los negroes, china. "You are listening to Radio Havana, Cuba. Cuba, a free territory of America.'
Are we still kicking this one around. Enough already. Everyone knows where everyone else stands and all it does in fan more flames and gets more tempers flaring. Time to cool it guys---and hope their are no more Santanas roaming around our subways, especially since Sea Beach Fred will soon hit town with some of his cohorts, #1 Brighton Express Bob and Steve 8AVEXP.
"Besides, anytime someone gets shot by the police, that person is sure to have some degree of melanin on the surface of their skin."
A very prejudicial and uninformed comment on your part. It is possible that a majority of shootings of suspects by the police involve people of color, but if you were to actually do some homework and research this, your posts would be more helpful, and people reading them would take you seriously, instead of dismissing you out of hand.
You must accept responsibility for your own attitudes, and then ask others to do the same. Not doing so would make you a hypocrite.
Regardless of their racial background, hispanics are still preceived as "people of color".. That's why they are in a separate category.
If we are to assume that the shooting was racially motivated (an absurd assumption, but let's play along with it for the moment), then what matters is Santana's physical appearance, not what sociocultural category in which he's been classified. In other words, the real question is whether the police believed Santana was a racial minority* based on his outward appearance. None of us know whether that was the case.
Besides, anytime someone gets shot by the police, that person is sure to have some degree of melanin on the surface of their skin.
What if the cops shoot an albino?
* = the Canadian term "visible minority" is quite useful in this context, it's a pity it hasn't caught on here.
Actually I have two questions for you although I never expect to get an answer from you.
Question 1 - What is the race of the female officer who Mr. Santana assaulted and tried to get her gun?
Question 2 - What is the race of the officer that shot Mr. Santana while defending the first officer?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - are you starting to get the point?
It doesn't matter who the officers are, because they are train by higher rank officers who are of european abstracts.. Therefore, the actions of a black/hispanic officer is the action of the system that they works for.. And since the system is run by men of european ancestors, the outcome will normally be in favor of the people who it serves. WHITE PEOPLE.
Here's an example of how the system works against people of color... And why we should not always believe in what the media prints about a person of color suspect.
Unless you see it with your own eyes.
Video ---->
http://cf.ibsys.com/ny/sh/videoplayer/video.cfm?id=1677652&owner=ny
"Here's an example of how the system works against people of color... And why we should not always believe in what the media prints about a person of color suspect."
Your video clearly shows that the officer using the radio as a weapon was wrong, and it also clearly shows that the officer was suspended and made subject to appropriate discipline by the NYPD. In addition, there is no doubt that a lawsuit would result in an award to the victim and his family. So you have just proven that the system does work, though it is imperfect. The precinct in question has a history of serious management lapses.
Your prejudiced comments about the police department would tend to suggest that you have nothing constructive to contribute to the efforts to reform the police department. Therefore, you make the problem worse, not better.
I don't think I need to go any further with this line of thought. My original perception of you was that you were a racist of the worst kind - the ones that would perfer to see the predetors of society freed and on the streets as long as they are non-whites. You have proven my case better than I could have hoped and for that I thank you. No need for a kill-file here. Ignoring you should silence your feckless racist voice. Just watch out for the heel of my shoe - just like the rest of the cockaroaches.
YOUR THE ONE WHO IS THE RACIST HERE!!! FOR NOT UNDERSTANDING MY POST!!!
Regardless of the circumstance that happened in the Bronx, you HAVE to see all sides... But this is America, and like Americans, they believe in everything they read in the media without giving second thought.
N Bwy
Understand N Broadway, no matter what happens now, Senor Santana and his lawyer are going to claim that the police used unnecessary force. They have to say this because they'll almost definitely sue the city. You can bet that if there was the slightest bit of evidence that the police used excessive force, there would've been a ton of witnesses who would've come forward by now, and it would be all over the news.
"Understand N Broadway, no matter what happens now, Senor Santana and his lawyer are going to claim that the police used unnecessary force. They have to say this because they'll almost definitely sue the city. You can bet that if there was the slightest bit of evidence that the police used excessive force, there would've been a ton of witnesses who would've come forward by now, and it would be all over the news."
Which is his right.. just like it's is the right of the police to lie about an incident they could have prevented.
N BWY
The police had no right confronting this man. They should've immediately contacted a superior, informed him or her of the man jumping the turnstile, and asked for a leave of absence to take a course to better understand why the man needed to jump the turnstile.
This is my last response on this subject.. YES! the police should have confronted the man, telling him that his actions was a violation of the law. Than the police should have written a ticket, like someone who is speeding down an expressway. If they are convince, a criminal check could be made on the individual to see if they have any pending warrants against them. If not, they should have let him go - just to tell him to report to court on a specific date to pay for the ticket. It should be done in a reasonable and timely fashion, so no one is in danger of getting hurt.
Note: the police are known for antagonizing people for no apparent reason.. They do this so that an individual gets upset to the point that they break. Once they break, the police has something to arrest them for.
Note 2: Every arrest that is made is a potential for a promotion.. Therefore, it is engrain in the police mind to arrest as many people, regardless of what they are being charge for.
N Bwy
"Note 2: Every arrest that is made is a potential for a promotion.. Therefore, it is engrain in the police mind to arrest as many people, regardless of what they are being charge for."
1) Promotion for patrol officers to the next rank (sergeant) is based on a civil service examination for that position. How does making a lot of bad arrests prepare you for a written examination?
2) An officer may not get fired for making arrests which result in civilian complaints to your patrol supervisor, but the Police Department does not like promoting morons to higher ranks, and with a few exceptions (as in any profession in life), abusive officers will not be helping their careers by busting people without reason.
Having met a few captains, inspectors and lieutenants, I can tell you they didn't earn their promotions by being stupid.
Have you considered doing a "ride-a-long" with the police? If you are over 18, and interested, and polite about it, and you ask the community relations officer, you might be allowed to put on a Kevlar vest and ride with a couple of officers in your precinct for a few hours on a day tour. Then you will have the opportunity to see a sample of what they do, day-to-day, and ask questions.
Sorry Broadway, but that excuse won't wash. You have just about come out and said you believe the punk's story and not the police officers. My question is again WHY???? You have something against the police? That is my impression. I think that is ridiculous. I almost believe you want cops to coddle criminals. I would like an explanation if you would give me one. I've had good rapport with you in the past but I have to admit I'm a little disappointment in your attitude. If there is a reason I'm willing to listen but as this juncture your posturing about the police is wearing a little thin.
"Sorry Broadway, but that excuse won't wash. You have just about come out and said you believe the punk's story and not the police officers."
Remember, the "punk" is suppose to be in the hospital unconscious? Therefore, his side of the story isn't what we got to read in the "mainstream" press. It was the police! ONLY THERE SIDE COUNTS! BECAUSE THE VERY SAME PEOPLE WHO RUNS THE MAINSTREAM PRESSES OF THE WORLD, RUNS THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THE FBI AND THE CIA! And we can't forget the Sadam Hessein's and Ben Laden's of the world!!!!
N BWY
"I would like an explanation if you would give me one. I've had good rapport with you in the past but I have to admit I'm a little disappointment in your attitude. If there is a reason I'm willing to listen but as this juncture your posturing about the police is wearing a little thin."
If you wasn't so wrap up in your comfort zone, you might open up some.. But unfortuately, so many find it convinent to just ignore the truth.
But unfortuately, so many find it convinent to just ignore the truth.
We know you do... which is why most of us ignore you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know most of "US" ignore the truth... Because most of "US" have a lot to hide and dead skeletons in their closets.
N Broadway
Because most of "US" have a lot to hide and dead skeletons in their closets.
But where do they keep the live skeletons?
In the transversal cab of course................
The full lenght cab is "occupied"...........by the threesome.
>>> Remember, the "punk" is suppose to be in the hospital unconscious? Therefore, his side of the story isn't what we got to read in the "mainstream" press. It was the police! ONLY THERE SIDE COUNTS! BECAUSE THE VERY SAME PEOPLE WHO RUNS THE MAINSTREAM PRESSES OF THE WORLD, RUNS THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THE FBI AND THE CIA! And we can't forget the Sadam Hessein's and Ben Laden's of the world!!!! <<<
And who, pray tell, would THAT be?
THE WORD IS "IF" Just think about it.... you shoot a suspect out of fear and than you have to explain what really happened.... Would you tell the truth, especially if you might face jail time..... I think not.. That is what we are facing here, and that is what we, as society, have been facing for a number of years.
N Bwy
>>> Just think about it.... you shoot a suspect out of fear and than you have to explain what really happened....Would you tell the truth, especially if you might face jail time <<<
The tendency for someone to try to cover their own ass is well known to police departments, and is not unique to police officers. That is why they investigate police shootings similar to the way they investigate a crime. They interrogate the officers involved separately, try to locate other witnesses, including the person shot if possible, and investigate the physical evidence at the scene. Hampering the investigation by lying is a crime in itself. It is not a simple process of having an officer say whatever he wants.
BTW, having a reasonable fear for your or another person's life is a good explanation for shooting someone, for either a policeman or a civilian.
Tom
"The tendency for someone to try to cover their own ass is well known to police departments, and is not unique to police officers. That is why they investigate police shootings similar to the way they investigate a crime. They interrogate the officers involved separately, try to locate other witnesses, including the person shot if possible, and investigate the physical evidence at the scene. Hampering the investigation by lying is a crime in itself. It is not a simple process of having an officer say whatever he wants."
I agree, it's not excluded to the police. And as you said, all evidence have to be taken in consideration, which includes civilian witnesses.
"BTW, having a reasonable fear for your or another person's life is a good explanation for shooting someone, for either a policeman or a civilian."
I agree.
N Bwy
Anon: That is exactly what I was thinking for a moment until sanity hit me. It could be he wasn't a violent punk, just a rotten one, and death is final. I don't like to see anyone die unless he kills someone else. I know, however, that we all have that feeling you had when you wrote your post. For awhile I felt the same way.
Oh, so THAAAAT'S what happened over there..I figured there was a shooting b/c when I got down to the S/B platform at 149th-3rd Av after coming from my house, there were some bullet punctures in the wall towards the rear of the N/B platform...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"...and I live right by there!"
Well Carlton, thank God you weren't in the wrong place and the wrong time. But is has to be scary to know that violence isn't very far from where you live. We all have to be careful.
In a way, it could have been the right place. NOW, why am I saying that.. Well, we would at least be able to hear someone elses side.
N Bwy
Well Carlton, thank God you weren't in the wrong place and the wrong time. But it has to be scary to know that violence isn't very far from where you live. We all have to be careful.
Police say anything.. and the media prints it anyway.. What about his side of the story.. Well.. I guess he can't speak now.. hmmmmm
N Bwy
Maybe the police are telling truth.
I seriously doubt it, judging from their past offenses.
N Bwy
>>> I seriously doubt it, judging from their past offenses. <<<
What do you know about these particular officers' past offenses??
Tom
They will KILL and ask questions later.
N Bwy
>>> They will KILL and ask questions later <<<
Can you give us details of when these particular officers have done that?
Tom
I'm not aware of the history of these particular officers.. But as a practice, officers tend to do things first (without thinking) and ask questions later.
N Bwy
Is this what your clergyman at the First Church of Scatotheism told you?
What gives Broadway? Why would be tend to believe the story of a punk rather than a police officer? Are you trying to tell me that most policemen are bad? That's what is sounds like to me. Have you had some serious run-ins with officers where your rights could have been violated? If so, maybe you have reasons for your beliefs, but I have always found the vast majority of cops to be pretty standup people.
I don't like to prejudge.. but in this world you have to expect the worse.. And since the criminal justice and media is the way it is, most times you can't put all the blame on the "suspect" without weighing all sides.
And yes, they are some good cops out there. Especially when they first get on the job. The problem is, they tend to get more corrupted
as the years go by. That's because of "the blue wall of silence" which discourage good cops from coming forward.
N Bwy
Neither do I, but you're already assuming there's a cover up. What if the cops are telling the truth (which I believe they are)? There are lots of criminals out there, who act like they have every right in the world to break laws and terrorize people and organizations like the ACLU, who by looking at every single action of the police under a microscope, are saying that's OK.
Assuming the worst is not a good thing. It makes us paranoid and cynical as a society. That's no way to live.
When I first heard the story, it sounded hard to believe. No one would ever try to escape from the police, let alone lunge for a cops gun.
My guess is it went something like this:
1. Man jumps turnstile
2. Cops apprehend suspect
3. Cops say, "ahhh, let's shoot this guy for the hell of it".
This explains why some many people are coming forward with conflicting stories as to what happened. Right Broadway?
-------1. Man jumps turnstile
2. Cops apprehend suspect
3. Cops say, "ahhh, let's shoot this guy for the hell of it". ----------
Apprehend could mean confront.. I hope that's what you mean... If he was physically restrained for simply jumping a turnstile, I would question the police tatics, not the "suspect."
3????? hmmmmm is this some type of trick question? If you seeking an answer that will suit your purpose for categorizing me, don't hold your breath...
Cops aren't that stupid to say they will shoot a suspect in the presence of tons of passengers waiting for a train on the platform.
Besides, I can't say what really happened.. But since I'm aware that most tactics that are used by police to subdue an individual is unnecessary. It not only puts the "suspect" and themselves at harm, but individuals who are in the immediate area. Especially if there is shooting involve..
But often times, the cops lacks the training that is necessary to ensure the safety of the public, which also includes suspects. Once that is broken, unfortunately, many times it can result in death.
Society must put pressure on their politicians to make sure the police does their jobs.. So injury is at a minimum.
What happens if that bullet hits two or three other people? Who is to blame? THE POLICE, because they used the wrong methods to understand the reason behind fare beating.
What we need to understand that often times people beat the fare because they got to get to work. Is beating the fare right? NO! It sure isn't. But people being paid only 6 dollars is wrong too.. But the difference is, the people who often do the time for their crimes is people who don't hold power in this country.
See... you all need to be in the shoes of someone who is less fortunate than yourself... And than you might have a better understanding of what I'm talking about.
There were cases of people getting arrested/confronted because of fare payment problems on the #5 at night (not knowing that the conductors collecting tickets were gone, metrocard ot working, MVM problems, people running for the last #5 to Manhattan,etc)
That problem on the 5 might be eliminated if high wheels were installed, instead of running on an honor system where people are exprected to pay the fare. Honesty works? Sure....
-Stef
Also noted there were problems with cards not working as well, and people who need to use the gate can't, but then again, no one is supposed to ride the Dyre line outside of rush hours, right? And it is supposed to be the worse line of all sectioned IRT lines, eh?
Would you please give indication in the subject line when you post something based on fact. Time is too short to read every post, here, and I'd really like to avoid the non-sense.
>>>No one would ever try to escape from the police...<<<
You obviously have never seen a show called cops.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> You obviously have never seen a show called cops. <<<
Or perhaps he has. That show certainly has the view that "No one should ever try to escape from the police." They never show the chases where the subject got away.
Tom
Good point. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
"Or perhaps he has. That show certainly has the view that "No one should ever try to escape from the police." They never show the chases where the subject got away."
Everyday, kids of color are killed by police for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If I was them, I would run too.
Remember, running isn't a crime... but searching someone without a reason is..
N Bwy
"Remember, running isn't a crime... "
Running from the police is a crime. In fact in some states - it's a felony regardless of the original reason that the police are pursuing you. If you want to be a shit-house lawyer, at least read something other than a dell comic.
Everyday, kids of color are killed by police for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If I was them, I would run too.
According to U.S. Department of Justice statistics, about 350 to 400 people are shot by the police each year in the United States. That's around one per day. Presumably, many of them are white and/or adult. So how do you get "everyday, kids of color are killed by the police"?
Those statistics can be change to hide the realities that go on in the inner city area.
N Bwy
Would you answer two questions, honestly? Well, actually 3?
1) Where did you go to school?
2) What is your level of education?
3) Have you ever considered suing for something. Somewhere along the line, my friend, you were cheated.
I think I've figured it out Broadway. You are a member of a minority and have had a couple of run-ins with the police in which you feel your rights were violated. It's a wild guess, I'm sure, but it is the only thing I can figure out as to why you are so down on the police. Please let me know.
In New York in 2001, there were 11 shootings by police, which was the lowest annual total in 20 years. The majority of the shootings occurred due to a suspect attempting to open fire on a police officer or an innocent bystander. In at least two of the incidents, the police did have time to attempt to use nonlethal methods (water spray, taser, rubber bullets, nightstick) and did use them, but the suspects continued to assault the oficers, and they were left with no choice but to open fire.
I would not say, however, that every shooting was justified.
Note that even after shooting the suspects, they rendered first aid and called paramedics to try to save the victims' lives.
You can insist on believing anti-minority conspiracies, if you want, and we're certainly not going to convince you otherwise here if you're mind is made up.
But consider this: we all make choices in life. As a hypothetical: A mugger who uses a knife and then gets shot by the police could have chosen not to commit a robbery. He could have consciously chosen to throw the knife away and not rob anyone. He chose to go ahead. By doing so, he risked arrest; he risked being shot by an officer acting correctly; he even created a risk for himself that an inexperienced or even a racist cop (there are some, I agree) not following proper procedure would shoot him.
I agree that one should not be shot just for jumping a turnstile. But even a trigger-happy cop doesn't enjoy the investigation, paperwork, modified duty, extra attention (not positive) etc. etc. that comes with a shooting. Thus, it is highly likely the subject did assault one of the officers. The question is whether that escalated to the point where he really had to be shot. This is what an official investigation is supposed to determine.
No Broadway, you are not correct. When a policeman tells you to stop, you stop. When he tells you to assume the position, you assume the position. When he tells you lie flat on your stomach, you do so. You might not like it, it might even be a bad beef, but you do it. Every time a policeman takes to the street he puts his life in his or someone else's hand. You obey the law.
Yea why is that?
See - I was right about you all along.
It's such a shame that you still have to have an axe to grind. I guess all the heroic deeds of the police and all those brave cops who died trying to save people from the two towering infernos that were the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, mean nothing to you. I guess you've learned nothing from 9/11.
Hello folks: Perhaps one of you has this information.....
There was an EXCELLENT website a while back called railterminal.com that had state-by-state listings of just about every rail-related attraction one could think of (including displays, small museums, everything).
I understand the webmaster (Leon Kanopka, I believe) passed away, but for some time the data were still accessible. Does anyone know if the website is still accessible, or if the data were preserved? Im most interested in Pennsylvania, I have some states downloaded if anyone wants to share.
REGARDS,
CONRAD MISEK
Boston
If you click on this link, then click on the "Cached" link you will be able to see a cached version of the page.
This link:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.railterminal.com
should work too, but this site is down right now.
THANKS, "NotchIt", I got just what I needed, your assistance is very much appreciated!
I just read in the times today that the UN is thinking expanding its campus south one block by building a new office tower. This will allow them to rehab the aging Secritariat building and provided new room for the future.
The big irony is, to do this they will need to bulldoze Robert Mosses Park. So in order to make an existing superblock one block larger, the park that bears Robert Mosses' name will need to be sacrificed for the "common good". If he were still alive, I wonder what he would say?
They want to abandon Robert Moses Park?
To tie into another thread: The UN headquarters are another Robert Moses project.
Why don't they simply abandon the UN? Virtually nothing productive has been accomplished there in the past 50 years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well the building has been UNoccupied since it opened.
Or move it one block East... the Astoria El wasn't quite large enough to fill it in you see...
It IS working out a tad better than the League of Nations, but not by much. But I have NO problem paying my share to keep the UN going, because it gives Jesse Helms agita. :)
Well, as you can imagine, I'm with Bro. Jesse on this one... not that I always agree with him, but he makes sense a lot more often than most of his colleagues in Congress. IMHO the United Nations is the one group that has somehow been left off our government's list of terrorist organizations and I wish that President Bush would listen to Helms and put it there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think I'll wait until Worldcon and Enron are bombed first. Then we can go after those folks on First Avenue. I ain't seen Ken Lay or Vice President Dick do a perp walk either. Don't mind me, I guess it all comes down to how you define "terrorist organizations" since there seems to be a whole lot more terror on Wall Street than Main Street. :)
It is a surprise to me that the UN hasn't gone the way of the League of Nations did after World War II. Except for Korea and a few isolated events the UN has become nothing more than a debating society. Hell, even when Ambassador Stevenson showed inconvertible proof that the filthy Commie Russians had put offensive nuclear missiles into Cuba, the UN Se. Gen, U Thant, a royal piece of shit if there ever was one, was still hoping to slowly negotiate the problem away while muttering the Russians "had a point". The UN sucks and most of us know it by now.
Technically, the United Nations is soverign territory (hence if you ever look at the Associaed Press wire, all stories datelined out of the UN are placed on the international wire). If they do annex Robert Moses Park, what affect would that have on 42nd St. and on anything below 42nd St., specifically, the No. 7 line? Or would the U.N. beccome a "divided nation" like Pakistan was before the Bangladeshi independence in 1971, with both sides of 42nd St. outside of the juristdiction of the U.S. or NYPD, while the street itself remains a part of New York.
This actually has a semi-serious appication, since the Steinway Tunnel crossover is almost exactly under that spot, and they did have problems there 20 years or so ago when part of the ceiling caved in on a Flushing Line train. Could emergency crews get access go straight down from street level to any future problem there if 42nd St. was blocked off and included as part of the U.N. territory. (Surely, you say, the U.N. would never be so bureaucratically obtuse as to do something like that? Remember, we're talking the U.N. here; the Secretary General de jour might not like our Middle East policy at some point in the future and decide to ban any access just to spite the State Department, as loopy as that sounds.)
the Secretary General de jour might not like our Middle East policy at some point in the future and decide to ban any access just to spite the State Department, as loopy as that sounds
Unfortunately for Mr Secretary General, there wouldn't be a hell of a lot he could do to stop necessary American forces going in to sort out that sort of situation. He would end up like the Pope in the Lateran Palace if he played that game.
I'm sure given the circumstances and the person in charge at City Hall, such an action like that probably would be done, even if it created an internation incident. It just that I can see the paramoia coming from some quarters in the UN that those police and emergency people really weren't going down there to deal with, say, a fire in one of the tunnels, they were actually trying to get into the UN to get information on the Secretary General's secret negotiations on revising the Treaty of Westphalia, or whatever damn thing the UN had on its plate at the time...
This actually has a semi-serious appication, since the Steinway Tunnel crossover is almost exactly under that spot, and they did have problems there 20 years or so ago when part of the ceiling caved in on a Flushing Line train. Could emergency crews get access go straight down from street level to any future problem there if 42nd St. was blocked off and included as part of the U.N. territory.
Some sort of easement agreement would be a wise idea. Though I suppose a hostile-to-American UN (not beyond the realm of possibility) might renounce it.
>>> Some sort of easement agreement would be a wise idea. Though I suppose a hostile-to-American UN (not beyond the realm of possibility) might renounce it. <<<
They would not dare. The shrub would order a preemptive strike to maintain access to the #7 line as soon as the first hint of any renouncement of the easement was discovered (or maybe even sooner). :-)
Tom
That would be wild ---US Troops Invade UN in NYC---- I can see the front page now
We could always limit the conveyance to the surface rights and retain the sub-surface.
In that scenario, the negotiations required would be something to see, since you would have an international organization having to talk with the NYC Parks Dept (which oversees RM Pk.), the NYC DOT (the off ramp to the FDR is right next to both the current headquarters and the proposed site), and the MTA (they'd have to re-route the M42 since it's current stand would theoretically be on international grounds, and they'd need to maintain emergency access to the Steinway tubes).
137th St - CCNY wrote :
..and the MTA (they'd have to re-route the M42 since it's current stand would theoretically be on international grounds..
Now there would be a first !! 99.5% NYC buses don't even leave NY (we let the busses from the suburbs come in), you could now theoretically have an international bus route run by the NY MTA, all for your $1.50, or $1.36 via metrocard.
Well, obviously he'd be whining about how the UN is a "debating society" and of no use, and there'd be fidgetting and howling like a stuck cat. THANK YOU for putting more irony in my diet! :)
I just read in the times today that the UN is thinking expanding its campus south one block by building a new office tower. This will allow them to rehab the aging Secritariat building and provided new room for the future.
Maybe they could build that new office space - IN SIBERIA!!
If you look under the service advisories for the 7 (http://www.mta.info/nyct/service/subsrvn7.htm) you will see the following
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Flushing-bound trains skip 33, 40, 46, and 52 Sts
Weekend, 9 AM to 5 PM Sat and Sun, Sep 21 and 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Flushing-bound trains run express from
Queensboro Plaza to Woodside-61 St
Weekend, 1:30 AM Sat to 5 AM Mon, Sep 28 to 30
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Notice that one says what will be skipped and the other one doesn't
Interesting isn't it ???
It's time to play 20 questions with SEPTA. Is it in you?
1: Before the opening of the Subway-Surface tunnel, where did Routes 10, 11, 13, 34, and 36 turn back?
2: Are there any "Almond Joys" still running on the Market-Frankford?
3: According to SEPTA themselves, where would you exit the Market-Frankford Line to reach the Gallery?
4: On some maps, which stations on Route 101 are omitted?
5: Which Regional Rail Line has had the most station closures?
6: What problem does floodwater sometimes cause for which line?
7: Which line, despite its location, rarely has floodwater problems?
8: Name the first Frankford Elevated station to be renovated.
9: Name the last Broad Street Line station to be renovated.
10: Why does the Broad-Ridge Spur turn back at Olney, and during what time?
11: Name one station that was completely omitted from the Market-Frankford unification.
12: Which stop, to be R1 line exclusive, ended up being shared instead, and what was its original name, and its current name?
13: Temple U Station was originally served by what three Regional Rail Lines?
14: What service would have been the R4, and what steps would have been taken leading to its operation?
15: On the 100 line, which is more used? Norristown Transportation Center or 69th Street Terminal?
16: Where and what is the "Dinky"?
17: Which line opened in December of 1932?
18: Which Regional Rail station, despite its low ridership, has remained open through the years?
19: SEPTA shares two stations with NJT. One is Trenton. Name the other.
20: Do the trolleys run all night?
Good luck!
~R6
1: Before the opening of the Subway-Surface tunnel, where did Routes 10, 11, 13, 34, and 36 turn back?
Trolley Lines have been running into Juniper St. Station since the MFL opened in 1904. The portal was at 22nd St until the 50's.
2: Are there any "Almond Joys" still running on the Market-Frankford?
Yes, work trains
3: According to SEPTA themselves, where would you exit the Market-Frankford Line to reach the Gallery?
11th St.
5: Which Regional Rail Line has had the most station closures?
R6 to Norristown (PRR side)
7: Which line, despite its location, rarely has floodwater problems?
R6
8: Name the first Frankford Elevated station to be renovated.
2nd St.
10: Why does the Broad-Ridge Spur turn back at Olney, and during what time?
Weekdays Peak, not enough platforming space at Fern Rock
13: Temple U Station was originally served by what three Regional Rail Lines?
R8, R6, R2
14: What service would have been the R4, and what steps would have been taken leading to its operation?
Service to the Schukyll valley. Electrifacation.
15: On the 100 line, which is more used? Norristown Transportation Center or 69th Street Terminal?
NTC due to the proximity of the mall
17: Which line opened in December of 1932?
BSS
19: SEPTA shares two stations with NJT. One is Trenton. Name the other.
30th St.
20: Do the trolleys run all night?
Yes, via 40th St.
18: Which Regional Rail station, despite its low ridership, has remained open through the years?
R8 - North Phidelphia
Reverse Question: Why.
Goodness. You've got some right, some wrong. I'm not giving out answers till I get two more participants at least. I'm also hoping someone tries to answer all 20 questions. I'll respond with the answers to your answers once I get two more participants.
Okay, in light of my competition, I'm kicking it up. I hope to get more people to this one, before I do Part 2. Yes, that's right, Part 2. Anyway, your answers.
1: Actually, the tunnel opened in 1906. Before that, the 10, 11, 13, and 36 turned back at Front & Chestnut. The 34 ran from 25th & South o 40th & Baltimore over an indirect route. (Thank you for the guidebook from Trolleyfest, SEPTA.)
2: Correct.
3: 8th Street. It's on their little information bulletin board at the station (these things are in most station mezzanines, and in 69th Street Terminal, Chester, Norristown TC, Springfield Mall, Frankford, Olney, a few select Regional Rail stations, etc. The one at 8th Street reads, "8th (Gallery)") It's also announced on the M4 cars for the stop at 8th Street.
5: The R8 (Fox Chase/Newtown), which lost ten stations north of Fox Chase. I wonder why nobody thought of this.
7: Correct
8: 2nd Street is underground. I was referring to Margaret-Orthodox.
10: Correct reason, but it's from the start of Ridge Spur service until 7:00 PM. Still, correct, since that does encompass weekday peak.
13: Airport Line (before becoming the R1, which is when the R3 got West Trenton), R5, R7
14: Service from Bryn Mawr to Fox Chase, which would have been started had they built a connection from the R8 Chestnut Hill West to the R6 orristown, allowing Chestnut Hill riders to avoid the tie-ups at Zoo and North Philadelphia by entering the downtown area from market East and the ex-Reading side. (and probably killing off the R7 Chestnut Hill East, so it's a good thing they never went through with it.)
15: correct, despite a very close base for end-to-end. However, there are a few more riders to/from Norristown than between Norristown and 69th Street itself.
17: Actually, it was the Broad-Ridge Spur.
19: Correct, but tricky. They share the building, but not the same platform, or even track area, since the Atlantic City Line is in the Amtrak level. Still, it counts as correct.
20: Trick question. One, they only use 40th Street once a week, except during times of high construction work in the tunnel. Two, only the 10, 13, 15 (it counts, since it's going back to trolley operations) and 36 run 24 hours. A simple "Yes" also includes the 11, 34, 101, and 102, which stop around 1:00 AM.
18: Correct. I would have also accepted Highland.
And to answer your question, as best I can say, strong opposition runs thick on the R8. The Chestnut Hill West line has two relatively unnecessary stations still open, while Fox Chase/Newtown can't go back to Newtown, due to opposition from Montgomery County (despite support from Bucks County - SEPTA needs to just listen to what railfans say sometimes, it's healthy. Had they listened to me intially back in '97, they'd have not nearly lost all their Ridge ridership by turning it back into a Local operation. That was supposed to cover an increased Temple University rider base, despite their inreasing Local train headways, as well as TWO runs of Route C, the 47, 23, and all the Regional Rail lines serving the campus.
I hope you'll join me in the second quiz... which will be up pretty soon...
Come on, people. One person isn't enough to maintain the quiz. Someone besides me has to know this...
6: What problem does floodwater sometimes cause for which line?
I think the 102 Sharon Hill line.....or its the 101 Media line...
9: Name the last Broad Street Line station to be renovated.
City Hall?
12: Which stop, to be R1 line exclusive, ended up being shared instead, and what was its original name, and its current name?
University City?
16: Where and what is the "Dinky"?
Princeton, NJ...the little shuttle train running between Princeton Junction and the University and stuff.
6) You've got the line right. I'm not spoiling the answers just yet.
9) This I'll half-spoil. City Hall was only renovated once, that's when they added the express tracks in 1959.
12: Half right.
16: SEPTA has their own "Dinky", I wasn't referring to the Princeton shuttle.
I need at least two more people before I start responding to answers en masse. I hope 20 questions wasn't too much. I saw how well the NYCT Subway quiz went, and wanted to try one for Philly.
Okay. I've got competition in the form of another SEPTA quiz going on. Time to kick it up a notch! Here are your answers, though I'm confused as to why you didn't do the others.
6: It is the 102 Trolley. At times, floodwater prevents the line from crossing under the CSX bridge to reach Sharon Hill, forcing turnbacks at Collingdale.
9: It was Ellsworth-Federal, which had its platform retiled, ceiling raised, and lights and signage redone last summer.
12: Yes, it's University City. It was to be originally called Civic Center, but I guess they knew the place was going to close when they'd finalized the decision to build it.
16: Yes, but wrong one. I'm referring to the short right-of-way that the 13 Trolley had at Darby Terminal for turnbacks, which has been closed since 1996. (Currently, Darby trips are used to access Elmwood District)
I hope you'll try the other questions. If you do, good luck!
1. What became 10, 11 and 34 turned back at the Market St Ferries loop at Delaware and Market. 13 and 36 didn't run into the tunnel until the 50's. 13 turned at Front & Chestnut and 36 also turned at the Market St Ferries.
2. Only a few work cars.
3. 8th Street.
4. All of those on State Street in Media (west of Bowling Green).
5. My guess would be R7 Trenton.
6. 102 gets flooded out on the CSX underpass between Sharon Hill and MacDade Blvd.
7. R6 Norristown.
8. A guess - Margaret-Orthodox (unless you count the complete replacement of Fairmount by Spring Garden).
9. Oregon?
10. To avoid peak-hour congestion at Fern Rock.
11. Not sure what you're asking?
12. Ya got me!
13. R6 Norristown, R7 CH East and R8 Fox Chase.
14. The story I've heard is that this would take the CH West and merge it with a Bryn Mawr short on R5. The connection between Norristown and CH West would have had to be built.
15. Norristown - more reverse commuting.
16. The long-gone Route 62 trolley.
17. The Ridge Spur.
18. R8 North Phila - the Chestnut Hillers have lots of pull! (Or the entire R6 Cynwyd for that matter!)
19. 30th St.
20. 10, 13 and 36 run all night.
OOH! So many close answers! Alright, since you're the first to actually answer every question, I'll give you your results.
1: Quite correct.
2: Again, correct.
3: Correct, though 11th Street has the more direct connection, they've always directed passengers to 8th Street.
4: Actually, it's Anderson Ave and Edgemont Street. The other Media cross-streets are always listed.
5: It was the R8. The ten stations north of Fox Chase. (R3 Media had nine west of Elwyn)
6: Correct
7: Strange, but correct. I wonder how that is achieved.
8: Fairmount and Spring Garden were two different stations. Margaret-Orthodox is correct (it's also the only one done in red framework similar to the support structures of the Market Street Elevated. The other Frankford stops are light blue)
9: Ellsworth-Federal (lights, tile, and signage replaced last summer)
10: Actually, it's from the start of Ridge service until 7 PM, but the correct reason is given. Even with the lower midday volume, Express, Ridge, and Local trains still would get tied up between Olney and Fern Rock.
11: "The Unification" is when the Market Street Elevated and the Frankford Elevated were combined into the Market-Frankford Line. South Street Terminal didn't survive this.
12: Civic Center (now University City, shared with the R2 and R3)
13: Actually, it was the Airport Line (before it became officially the R1), the R5 and the R7
14: That story is correct. And, for the R7's sake, thank goodness they didn't do it! (What color would an R4 be, anyway?)
15: Yes, Norristown, but they're very close. Most 69th Street passengers ride through to NTC, but more NTC passengers alight before the terminal.
16: Nobody got this. It's the extremely short ROW that allowed the 13 trolley to turn back at Darby Terminal without going all the way to Elmwood District. It's been closed since 1996.
17: Correct.
18: Yes. I would have also accepted Highland.
19: Correct, but sort of a trick question, because unlike Trenton, they don't share the same platform space. NJT's Atlantic City Line is in the "basement" (The Amtrak level, Track 10)
20: You got technical on me. Correct. It was another trick Q. "No" would be wrong, as it omits them all, but a "Yes" would mean they were including the 11, 34, 101, and 102 (Yes, those two count. I said Trolleys, not Subway-Surface Lines). I would accept the 15, since it's going back to trolley soon.
Your score: 13/20. Not bad, not bad at all. The ones you missed are a few I expected most people to miss. I didn't deduct points from Question 10, because you got the reasoning pretty much dead-on. When they restored the Ridge to its Express mimicry, their big concern was the tie-up at Fern Rock.
OK but
For #11, there was also a Market-Chestnut station on the Ferries branch. This didn't survive the 'union' either.
For #19, North Philadelphia is another (R7, R8 and Atlantic City).
Technically, was Newtown ever part of R8 (just the same as whether West Chester was ever part of R3)?
Yes. It was officially classified as part of the R8, even after the line was abandoned. The old 1989 SEPTA Suburban Map has thin stretches of railroad track used to indicate out-of-service lines. At the West Chester end was an R3 terminal station indicator, and one for the R8 at Newtown. Back then, though, SEPTA seemingly had plans for restoring both lines.
I still remember seeing SEPTA maps posted at some Regional Rail stations showing the R3 to West Chester. This was about 3 years ago.
I still remember seeing SEPTA maps posted at some Regional Rail stations showing the R3 to West Chester. This was about 3 years ago.
I didn't get that portion of the map in the photo, but I photographed a SEPTA Regional Rail map at Doylestown station on December 28, 2001(on the SubTalk SEPTA field trip) that showed the R8 still going to Newtown.
I do believe those are circa 1984. SEPTA has taken to simply sticking their newer maps on top of the old ones. If the new map peels off, you can se the older map beneath it. Unless they've layered them... Strangely, they have Market-Frankford Line maps/station guides on the platform at City Hall on the Broad street Line.
A few things about their old 1984 maps:
R8 is shown running to Newtown
R3 is shown running to West Chester
R6 Cynwyd is still going to Ivy Ridge. There is no Ivy Ridge on the Norristown side.
"Penn Center" prefix still part of Suburban Station name.
The following stations are proposed, as shown on the old maps: Civic Center (which opened as University City in April 1995), 70th Street, 84th Street (which opened as Eastwick in December 1997), Baldwin (which is supposed to be still considered)
The following stations are open, as shown on the old maps: Fellwick, Shawmont, Westmoreland, Andalusia, Frankford Junction, Frankford, Mogees, Fulmor, Fishers, Tioga, Nicetown, Logan, Tabor, Fern Rock.
The following stations don't exist yet: Claymont, Wilmington, Churchman's Crossing, Newark, Malvern, Exton, Whitford, Downingtown, Thorndale, Coatesville, Parkesburg, Fern Rock Transportaion Center.
Point is... with all these changes, they should have done at least ONE "permanent" map to replace the 1984 ones. Perhaps now would be a good time to remove the 1984 maps, auction them off, and replace them with a 2002 or 2003 edition.
Mind you, this is just the Regional Rail system map (which happens to include the other rail services), I've not even started on the Market-Frankford and Broad Street Line maps. There's also an old 1981 map that shows the system when the Reading and Penn Central still ran the railroad lines... that was the last anyone saw of the station at 52nd Street Junction. That also mentions stops along what would be the R2 Newark line in Edgemoor, DE, at Naamans Road, and in Trainer, PA. Anyone know if these stops existed?
There is an Ivy Ridge on the Norristown side.
The Penn Center prefix to Suburban Station is still a very common sight around the 15th St-City Hall complex.
I remember riding on the former Reading Main Line, and seeing the old Logan Station, right where the line crosses over Broad Street. The old platform and shelter was in terrible condition last time i went by.
If im not mistaken, commuter service to Coatesville via the Penn Central existed at one time, but was cut back sometime in the last 30 or 40 years. Same goes for Parkesburg.
'84 was the first year of the Center City Tunnel (it opened in November and then shut down again due to the Columbia Bridge problems). The R-designations started when the tunnel opened. At that time, R3 was still going to West Chester, although some trips were shuttles from Media to West Chester (or vice versa) and required a change at Media. R6 Ivy Ridge was still running there also, having been extended from Manayunk West in '81 (I believe the truncation to Cynwyd happened in '88). The Ivy Ridge 'lower' stop on the Norristown side opened shortly after the 'upper' lost service.
I don't recall the Newtown trains ever carrying the R8 designation. After SEPTA took over operations in '83 (when Conrail stopped running commuter trains), it put Broad St Subway motorman on the RDC's and called it the Fox Chase-Newtown line.
Penn Center is still fairly common on maps, etc.
Wilmington existed for a while, as I recall, as it was the terminus of PRR/PC commuter trains. Sometime in the mid-80's SEPTA ended the service since Delaware wouldn't kick in any funding. A few years later, this changed and the trains are running again.
Stops beyond Paoli (Malvern, Exton, Whitford, Downingtown, Coatesville, etc) were served by Amtrak Harrisburg trains. In the late 80's some R5's were extended to Downingtown to capture the sprawling population and help relieve crowding at Paoli. These trains had to deadhead all the way to Parkesburg to turn back. The new station at Thorndale and some new switches changed this.
The stops mentioned along the Wilmington line all existed. I know Trainer had little more than platforms. I think Naamans was very similar.
Broad St and Market-Frankford haven't changed very much since the 80's, station-wise. On the latter, the big change was the renaming of Bridge-Pratt to Frankford Transportation Center, but the riders still know it as 'Bridge & Pratt'.
Okay, time to end this. I need to get ready for Part 2, and hopefully more people will join. This one had too many possible answers, so the next will be less... whatever.
1: At Front & Market for all but the 34. The 34 originally ran from 25th & South to 40th & Baltimore.
2: Yes, for the Money train/maintenance train.
3: 8th Street.
4: Anderson Ave (between Aronimink and Drexelbrook) and Edgemont Street (in Media)
5: The R8, with the closures from Fox Chase to Newtown. Ten stations total (Walnut Hill, Huntingdon Valley, Bryn Athyn, County Line, Southampton, Churchville, Holland, Village Shires-Buck Road, George School, Newtown)
6: Floodwater sometimes builds up under the CSXT railroad bridge over the 102 Sharon Hill Trolley, forcing service to turn back at Collingdale.
7: The close-to-the Schyulkill River R6 Norristown line.
8: Margaret-Orthodox (Arrott Terminal)
9: Ellsworth-Federal
10: The Local and Express trains crowd up Fern Rock as it is, so the Ridge would make for serious tie-ups. So, the Ridge turns back at Olney from the start of service until 7 PM weeknights, save for a few yard pull-ins to Fern Rock. After 7PM, and all day Saturday, there are no Express trains running, leaving the Ridge to run to/from Fern Rock with no problems.
11: Market-Chestnut (yes I knew of it, but I wasn't thinking of it when I wrote this quiz, but it counts) or South Street Terminal.
12: Civic Center, now known as University City.
13: Airport Line (back when it and the R3 turned back at North Broad, (except the R3 was tied with the R1 West Trenton) before the R3 got West Trenton, and the APL became the R1), R5, and R7. After the R1 was designated Airport service, and the R3 became Media to West Trenton, it was the R5, R6, and R7
14: R4 Service would have been Bryn Mawr to Fox Chase. A connection between the Chestnut Hill West line and the R6 Norristown near 22nd Street ould have been built, thus allowing the Chestnut Hill West trains to avoid North Philadelphia and Zoo junction, and enter Center City via the ex-Reading side and Market East. (This would have probably killed off the R7 Chestnut Hill East, as I believe C. Hill West trains would have been routed to Trenton as R7s, and the R8 designation would have been dropped.)
15: Norristown for the reverse commuter base growing there, but not by much more than 69th Street, which is where most Norristown-bound commuters board. Those going to the King of Prussia Mall usually use Gulph Mills.
16: The short stretch of Right-of-Way in Darby, once used for Route 13 Darby Terminal trips.
17: The Broad-Ridge Spur.
18: North Philadelphia or Highland (both on the R8)
19: 30th Street Station, though they don't share the same part of the station. SEPTA's up top, NJT is with Amtrak down below.
20: Trick question. No and yes are both wrong. Only the 10, 13, 15 (it counts, since it's going back to trolley sometime next year) and 36 run all night, and a "no" omits these. However, a "yes" includes the 11, 34, 101, and 102, which stop around 1:00 AM and start back up around 5:00 AM.
How many TPH are there on the V, J, M and Z trains during rush hour?
J 6tph (headway: 10mins)
M 6-8tph (headway: 8-10mins)
V 8tph (headway: 5-10mins)
Z 6tph (headway: 10mins)
Directly from TA schedules:
V train: every 7-8 minutes, indicating about 8 TPH
J/Z trains: together they run every 5 minutes {12 TPH}. If you are waiting for either the J or Z in particular, it is every ten minutes, 6 TPH.
M train: AM every 8-10 minutes, meaning 6-7 TPH. PM every 10 minutes, meaning 6 TPH.
I hope this helps.
I was riding to Penn station with my freind Joey. Usually I ride the R to the 6, but I wanted to get the motherload of LIRR timetables. So I rode the R to the L to the A. While waiting for the A we saw 2 kids. They both looked like middle schoolers. One went past the "Do Not Cross the Track" sign at the end of everyt station. The other kid sat where the tracks are and even was dumb enough to walk on the tracks. Like everyone I was in shock, but in the back of my mind I wanted a speeding A train to "accidently" not see them and run em over(I know its cruel). "Luckily" nothing happened. But it's just amazing to me how people can be this stupid and it comes out of the MTA's pockets.
Teenagers, raging hormones...
When I was in high school (Stuyvesant), some of my classmates thought it was cool to walk through the L-train (then known as the LL) tunnel from First Avenue to Third Avenue, using the catwalk. They supposedly did it because service on the L was so slow. Some even tried walking from Third Avenue to Union Square, but it made them a little nervous--they had to cross the tracks, because Third Avenue had side platforms, and Union Square had a center island platform.
Heh...
What's worse if that if they were hit, imagine all of the litigation that would come up the wazoo....
Like alot of people, the kids figured nothing would happen to them. Fortunately nothing did.
It's the SCHOOL SYSTEM.. And PEER PRESSURE
N Bwy
That is normal, everyday, school kid subway behavior.
Nonsense. I rode the (much rougher) subways regularly while in HS between 1978 and 1982 and never once did I attempt something as stupid as these kids did. Being in school does not excuse extracurricular stupidity.
Kind of reminds me of an incident on the Deuce some weeks back. The train is northbound approaching Intervale Av. Speed is around 30-35 mph. The T/O notices some kids sitting on the edge of the platform just looking stupidly at him. They don't adhere to his warning horns to get up of the edge, and he has apply full service (almost dump it even) just to make sure he didn't hit any of them. And the last kid did not get up until the train was less than five feet away from him.
Kids at that age think they're bulletproof.
That's nothing. I was transferring from an R to an F at 9th St once in 1987. As i was walking to the front of the station, I noticed 6 kids (2 girls) jogging up the express tracks, just inside the curtain wall. Do you know how fast express trains run through that station?
Pretty fast in 1987. The final field shunt step was still enabled in those days.
Yup, and no R68's. Just R40 slants on the B and R30/42's on the M.
When I was a kid, I had friends who used to open the emergency stairs in Ft Tryon Park and walk to the 190th St station or to Dyckman-200th St...Don't know why they wanted to do that other than trying to be cool was beyond me.
For the relays there, do they send the trains onto the yard lead tracks under the mainline just so much as to clear the switches, or do they send them all the way to where the two tracks turn into four east of 75 Ave as depicted on ALL Bahn layouts I have showing the area?
THe second one. The yard lead tracks are not used to turn G/R/V trains. There are track maps on this site BTW.
The yard lead tracks are occasionally used for "long relays". Usually for when that train is scheduled to make a later interval than normal, or when 7 & 8 tracks are filled or currently in use.
Like on the BAHN Layouts, but I think the tracks are more under 75th/Puritan, rather than well East of them - of course showing different levels is a big difficulty with BAHN.
Speaking of BAHN,
I just completed a set of new NYC Subway BAHN layouts, each showing different service changes between January of last year and April of this one. If any one is intrested in getting them please e-mail me at:
pgitty@yahoo.com
The relays are done under the mainline, just north of the station.
The relay moves as done in practice on the TA are impossible to recreate in BAHN, so to be able to stack two trains on each relay in BAHN you must reverse them all beyond the end, on the yard leads.
saw this doc. on the public channel here on long island cable
the web link was
http://www.trainweb.org/tgv/1/index.html
he got on the case of the robert moses lirr concept big time !!
site looks not too bad !!
lol
It typically costs a student about $40 to travel the NEC from like NYP to Philly. Well I just booked a ticket on a train from Philly to NYP and then from NYP to Toronto Canada. The final fare? $77. (with 15% student advantage discount) That's right. PHL to NYP is 40$ and the final leg to Toronto (about 5-7 times the distance) is only an additional $37.
When I booked a ticket back I was planning to take NJT home from NYP. Well the added cost for Amtrak to take me that final leg was $9 for a total of $85. That's right. Depending on the pricing points your trip down the NEC on Amtrak could cost less than an NJT one way fare over half of that journey.
Amtrak is SO inconsistant.
>>Amtrak is SO inconsistant.
Duh, it is market driven, large demand for NYP PHL so they can charge what they want.
Just take the bus, as cheap as $15 some times.
It's not as fun for a railfan to take the bus you must admit.
as a STUDENT maybe you should reread the history of how we got the ICC.
Ever since the "deregulation" fraud we have completely predatory pricing in many aspects of our economy. One may argue that the benefits to those able to "work" the system are wonderful, but when two bargain RT's are cheaper than a legit less restricted RT (buy the two use one leg each throw away the uselass paper) I begin to wonder. ATK has no economic choice but to play the same games.
Deregulation is a long story. I would argue that origin-destination pricing is in the best interest of both the carrier and the economy. The phenomenon you refer to, the restricted versus unrestricted round trip, is an artefact of overcapacity in the airline industry. The solution is to take some capacity out. Why? The highly-restricted tickets are being sold at marginal costs because somebody in the industry is always losing money. Some economists might argue that marginal cost pricing is the best for the society, but someone has to pay the capital costs somehow. If there were an undercapacity, the marginal cost would be very different to what it is today, and that would be a benefit for the industry and for the society.
AEM7
Chicago to NY via Washington DC costs $90. Chicago to DC is $87. I have no problem with that.
Why is the voice for the 5 train so damn soft??? I mean, announcements should be able to be heard if there are people in the car carrying on a normal conversation. The lady is whispering the announcement, and I really believe that these announcements should be redone by someone else like the 6 train lady or even the voice for the 2 train ( if absolutely necessary). Perhaps Charlie Pellet could do the announcements for the entire line.
What do you think?
I've never rode or seen a r142 5 yet, but I'll make a note of it when i do.
It sounds something like
THE NEXT STOP IS.. 138th Street, Grand Concourse. STAND CLEAR THE CLOSING DOORS PLEASE.*Ding Dong
I heard the soft voice on the 2 as well. Maybe Jackie Mason should do the announcements. Or Ben Stein even.
I think commuters on the 2 and 5 lines would go nuts after about the tenth time of hearing Ben Stein announcing "This...is...Times...Square. Transfer is available to the A...C...E...N...Q...R...W...1...7...and Shuttle trains. Bueller? Bueller?"
Too bad Sam Kinnison's dead. If he were doing it, the people in the No. 6 train across the tracks could hear the announcements...
Yes, they would. I take it that the announcements 51st Street would go something like this, "Tansfer is available to the E and V ... wait a second, the F doesn't stop here anymore? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I LIVE IN HELLLLLLLLLLLLLL! OH,OHHHHHHHHHHHH"
I'd MUCH prefer Kinnison to "Mister Ed" with "watch the CLOOOOoooosing doors, please" ... or at LEAST give conductors a "machine gun spray" sound effect button to push when the wimpy announcements don't clear the doors. :)
LOL
Or the announcement should be made to say, "Get outta da freakin' doors!"
im sorry,flyerlover. i dont know what i was thinkin that day. i was tired, ad my voice hurt. ialready did the A,C,E thtday (for the 143's), and i didnt hVE THE ENERGY for the 5. i hope you canforgive me
Without even reading the posts, I know which five car trainset you were on. My buddy pulled it out of service (2 converted to 5) because the Canadian P.A. system was NOT working 'Telephonics' is another phoney Bombardier vendor. There are no 'soft voices' in the system...just broken systems. 'OH C A N A D A, you trainsets are such ....' CI Peter
Hi, gang,
Sorry to say, but we've only gotten about six responses to our flyer advertising the NYD's September 29 trip to "New York Days" at Branford (and NOBODY addressed the message I posted yesterday advertising the trip). We run trips for the enjoyment of the participants, but more importantly we run them to raise revenues that support the organization. Six people are far fewer than what we needed to break even on this trip, much less have a surplus, and we can't afford to take a financial bath on a trip. Accordingly, regrettably, we must cancel the trip. Anyone who purchased a ticket will be given a refund or credit toward a future trip.
We're planning trips to Hudson-Bergen and the Newark City Subway around Thanksgiving, and we're hoping to have a Redbird fantrip in December. We hope to see many or all of you then.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I'm sorry to hear that the ERA has cancelled the trip. I can't help but wonder what the turnout will be like for 9/29. Oh well!
-Stef
When BERA scheduled "New York Days" and the NYD arranged for the bus, nothing else was to be going on. Now the Hoboken Festival (or whatever it's called these days) has been scheduled for the day we were going to have the bus trip (9/29), and other things will be happening as well. In short, a "nothing" weekend turned into a very busy weekend in a flash.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
>>I'm sorry to hear that the ERA has cancelled the trip. I can't help but wonder what the turnout will be like for 9/29. Oh well!<<
You might get some folks who might forego Hoboken Festival because they feel it's the same old same old. There's still Saturday.
Bill "Newkirk"
And there's still the "ride with Selkirk" event on October 13th for anyone who's interested. So there IS another shot at it ...
>>And there's still the "ride with Selkirk" event on October 13th for anyone who's interested. So there IS another shot at it<<
Are you bringing your gold plated handle or using theirs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. Dunno yet. I turned in my "real" handles and keys for my final paycheck from the TA, but am hoping to get my hands on my own set elsewhere for the event. If I can't manage that I guess I'll have to borrow the "official set" or brings some Craftsman tools. Heh. Arnines ain't all that hard to operate with standard tools believe it or not, the TA stuff of the time wasn't as off the wall as it is today with keyed handles and vapor keys. :)
whats this ride with Selkiri, Sea Beach Fred and I will be in town for the day to ride
Bob, why don't you and Fred come on up to Branford on the 13th instead? We're having a special SubTalk Day up there... see the Upcoming Events section of this website for more information. Selkirk and wife are due to come down, the usual SubTalk/Branford crowd (BMTman, Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn, Sparky, Jeff Hakner, myself, and hopefully Stef and some others) will be in attendance, Steve B from Denver will be there, quite possibly some others, and we're going to run the R9 as a charter for those who contribute appropriately to the cost. We'd love to have you!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Special bonus attraction - Nancy (the missus) is a genuine rail FOAMETTE! Actually leaves nose print on the glass! She's also operated the conductor position on a few trains, including assuming the position on Arnines, triggers, caps and all. And yes, she's also operated Budd RDC's ... so for all of you who may doubt that wimmens can be into trains, a personal appearance of a genuine foamette will be part of the rituals as well. :)
Hey the buzzor over the storm door works on 1689 so you can close up and signal proper to the T/O.
I was sorta hoping it would be. Nancy loves to get a good buzz on. :)
I hope nobody says buzz off.:)
Turn of a key will solve any of that stuff. :)
Party pooper.:)
I'm just a museum member. Still, if anyone can whiz on a parade, I doubt Branford can match the now-a-go-go TA. :)
I'll be sure to provide extra handiwipes! ;)
I'd suggest a CASE ... well ... you know. :)
How about Depends? Heypaul swears by them.:)
Getting THAT excited about seeing an Arnine are we? :)
Hey, I can't wait to see 1689 again. It's my favorite car in Shoreline's entire collection.
Heh. In my case, it's the one car I *know* ... I *hope* ... didn't last all that long with the TA, didn't get to know much else and it'll be a LONG time before any 32's head for the museums. But 1689 is like a relative - know the nooks and crannies, know where it's been. I'll be VERY comfortable. That's what I always loved about the Arnines ... they had a personality, they would TALK to you and if you LISTENED, they'd never let ya down ... I shudder to think of how folks raised on bingbongs would deal with them. They're not at all like a 44, and THAT is what made them special. :)
We have another member who loves the car so much that when he comes down from NH for a 3 week summer working visit he bunks in 1689 & changes all the signs to "Aqueduct Special".
Not to worry about me THERE either, I know what condition the curtains were in thirty years ago, have no need to add to the wear and tear on them. Whatever she's signed for is just FINE by me. I ain't in this for the rollsigns. :)
Folks complain about us not putting the handles back on the roll sign crank, but we have enough ware & TARE on them without the handles.
Maybe we should lock them some way because we are a museum & we do want to preserve them too.
I'd like to see one set of signs set for A and another for D, but it's no big deal.
Why not just remove the gear which meshes with the one on the crank handle?
>>>Why not just remove the gear which meshes with the one on the crank handle? <<<
That's what the Transit Museum does.
Peace,
ANDEE
We probably should, but the foamers would complain if we do.
Maybe we just need a little more time to go by, i.e. nobody messes with the trolley roll signs ... or at least those that would, can't get it up anymore ... their arm I mean ... get you mind out of the gutter.
..."i.e. nobody messes with the trolley roll signs"...
That's not absolutely accurate, because this weekend the #2 end
TATS 629, was showing Lenox Avenue on the destination curtain.
I didn't even know that was there, may somebody changing destination
curtains besides "lightbulbs"???
I did flip over the route number on the #1 end at the request of a
guest on Saturday. But that person asked if it could be done,
not overextending their welcome, by doing it themselfs. In as much
as 629s number plates are for "Yonkers" routes, the destination &
interior route curtains do not match. I know, the die hard foamers
will squell, but we are having fun.
;| ) Sparky
The guest for whom you did that is a friend of mine and asked me to convey his thanks to you for the favor - I didn't know who to thank until now. When I saw him back in NJ on Sunday he also mentioned that he misplaced the membership application (couldn't stay long enough on Saturday due to family commitments to take us up on the handle time offer) and asked me to pick another one up for him when I'm there on the 13th. So looks like we'll get another member and 629 enthusiast out of this :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Good deeds, do not go unpunished. Tell your buddy his thanks was
most welcomed.
;| )Sparky
I stand corrected.
;| ) Sparky
As a followup... Ray mentioned that when he was last at Branford in September of 1972, the trip didn't run all the way to Short Beach because the culvert was washed out. Was that a long-term problem then (I know we've had issues with that culvert over the years) or did he just happen to pick the wrong weekend?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ken L. changed the sign on the west end of TARS 629 yesterday. I witness the event from afar.
The culvert support was cemented, but the tide flow in & out since then has started eating away at it, so it needs to be done again.
We could do a post & beam replacement, but then we would have to deal with the bugs eating the wood :-(
You mean termites?
My bet is ants and carpenter bees ... we've got 'em up here too. If it's wood and it holds up something, they want it. Railroad bridge? YUMMY! :)
No, none of the above, some other kind of bug that lives in the water & loves telephone poles.
DANG! Do me flavor? HOSE DOWN my boots before I leave. GEEZ. Slime from the blue lagoon. Homey don't PLAY DAT. TWICE tonight, look down at my feets and first time, it's a gartner snake. Second time it's a COPPERHEAD. I feel like FREAKING INDY here! ("Snakes ... why does it have to be snakes?" HABUSAKI! Knichiwa. "she" a habu ga ...")
250 Kawasaki employees just scattered. Moo. I best go bed ... I'm thinking "swamp needs Viagra, not RAID" ... nevermind. :)
It's something also that favors "Salt Water", since they have the
same problem with the "Piers" in the Big Apple. We had the trestles
coated and sealed several years back. Jeff H chime in with the
details, please.
;| ) Sparky
SOUNDS like "sea worms" ... a couple of cases of LABATTS' oughta cure THAT. :)
Man, I had my finger on the rim shot button.:)
Whatever she's signed for is just FINE by me. If there's any desired yayas, if she's signed as a D on one end, I might want to rotate the lenses for green green on that end and if it's an A on a bulkhead, red/yel but once again, I don't care. As long as the brake shoes are there and there's no leaking cylinders, I'm good. :)
This past week-end, she said "D 6th Ave"
I would love to see one of the sign boxes set the way mine is right now: Concourse-205th St./Coney Island/D-6th Ave. Express. Hopefully I could take a picture with "Coney Island" backlit. 1967 all over again.
To be more correct, for a short time on Sunday, 1689 if looking
at the Short Beach end, leading end and side sign were: Front,
"A" to Broad Channel [rather unique to an arnine, when I set it],
side sign was "A" 8th Avenue Express, Washington Heights, 207th,
upper and Rockaway Park, lower. [later in the day Broad Channel
appeared in the upper, and was an "AA"].
On the East Haven end, the end where coupled to 5466, the end route
sign was "D" Sixth Avenue-Houston to Kings Highway. Side sign
was "D" Sixth/Houston from Concourse 205th to Kings Highway.
[Before Kevin comments, why Kings Highway, it was done for Big Lou,
since the Highway is his home station.] Whatever the cast of players
signed 1689 for, it was neater the the S-Special from Jamaica~179th
to Acqueduct. IMO ;| )
~Sparky
And who was it that said only our guest play with the roll signs ?
We're do it very carefully though < G >
P.S. There was this young boy on one of the trips who had never been on a subway. We were on the elevated train & after I made some comments to our guest in general he asked some questions ... as all young boys do ... anyhow at one point I said to him "see that group of people at the end of the other car ? Well, they're Railfans, some call them foamers, be sure to stay away from them" (broad smiles & laughter breaks out in the car) then I said, "Oh by the way, I call some of them my friends" (more laughter).
..."And who was it that said only our guest play with the roll signs?"...
By the way, I was very polite about it, didn't display "GG" at all.
;| ) Sparky
Hey, that's pretty close to what I had envisioned! All we'd have to do is change Kings Highway to Coney Island (both side and bulkhead) and I'd be set.
Won't hear any complaints out of me ... not many of them had Brighton Beach, although years earlier the Arnines would run outside of rush to Coney, so that would have been legit. And they DID have Coney. Rule was if you had Brighton on the end signs, you'd use that, otherwise you'd spin it to the blank at the end. You weren't supposed to display Coney unless you were signed as a Brighton local. Side signs though were pretty much "anything can happen day". :)
Whoops ... posted too quickly, forgot to mention that I wouldn't mind if it was GG on all fours either as CTL/S9th. I was never obsessed with routings as long as I knew what to punch for and where and got what I punched. :)
Works for me ... I would have been just as happy if it said GG. Sorry for my lack of interest, but route signage is a "geese thing" ... all I care about is whether the air stays in the pipes when you want it to, and goes away when you NEED it to. :)
And we'll all chant, "Neener-neener" in unison as 1689 rolls along the track.:)
"Neener-neener" is a reserved word, used only when the train goes into hovercraft mode or is overcome by swamp gas, whichever comes first. :)
I can just see 1689 hovering at Shoreline - rotflmao.
I'll have to bring along some of those Krsna dewds and see if we can make 1689 float. Nope, I'll bring some NYS employees. Hell, they can make ROCKS float. :)
At least you two guys won't be getting in trouble with anyone for getting into the cab ... well maybe B-I-G Lou from Brooklyn if you don't wait until he says OK < G >
Heh. Not to worry about me, I'm very good at playing "Simon says" ... worked for the state for more than a decade, good training in playing by the rules and doing WHATEVER supervision says along with "OK, genius" under your breath. :)
Should we hold a seance (sp)?:)
Too west coast. :)
Maybe we'll install some gunports and go Bambi spotting instead. Heh.
[... we'll install some gunports and go Bambi spotting ...]
Now now, that's politically inappropriate. We can't even throw a branch in the swamp without someone calling the EPA.
Time to move the museum. We've got 6.7 miles of single track, mostly tangent too. And around here Bambi is known as "rodent on stilts." Perhaps we can get a few boxcars, round 'em up and deliver them to a PeTA facility where they can be petted and cuddled and kicked. :)
The 6.7 miles part would be real nice, but the commuting time for the help would be a killer :-(
I could be the next Uncle George. I live right next to it. But yeah, the way I look at it, it'd be a WONDERFUL run. But if the KINGSTON Trolley Museum is too far upstate to attract crowds and money from the city, then where we are at nearly twice the distance would truly be insane. But the other end of the tracks is about a mile and a half from the Joe Bruno Amtrak station. A fishbowl or two would do it. :)
Kevin,
Currently, if enough members or visitors call in advance, a fish bowl
or RTS, can be dispatched by Seashore Trolley Museum to meet
Amtrak Downeaster Service at Saco. Also they'll fetch ya at your local
motel, been done for Branford's 3/4 ton contingent.
On my Friday of Operations in the North Country, the fish bowl
fetched a group of local high schoolers and exchange students
from Germany and brought them to the museum to "Ride the Trolley
to Talbott Park". We did on TCT, 1267 where I was the Conductor.
;| ) Sparky
Roger that, Sparky. I've "operated" the multi-modal trips on occasion.
You mentioned that Seashore can pick up groups off-property with a bus and transport them to the main museum campus. I'm curious: are there any insurance issues with doing this? IRM has a sizeable (too sizeable, if you ask some people!) motor bus collection, although not nearly the equal of Seashore's, and a couple of them even run. This past year, we offered regular motor bus service inside the confines of the IRM property. However, our insurance specifically forbids us from carrying passengers off-property and, depending on what our next insurance agreement is, we might not even be able to carry them on-property. Oddly enough, these strict requirements to not apply to trolley buses. Anyway, I was just curious.
Frank Hicks
Frank,
We are told by our insurance agent that as long as we don't run a "charter service," (i.e. accept money for transporting passengers), we are OK. More specifically, if we transport people as part of our mission, either on- or off-property -- and it stays a minor part of our operation, we are coverend.
For example, Kennebunk/port has an annual "home show" at the local high school in March. Seashore has a booth there to promote the Museum for the upcoming season. Since the high school's parking lot isn't big enough for all of the attendees to the show, we run a shuttle bus service using our two Fishbowls to/from a remote lot. We do not charge for it -- it's part of our "exhibit." Again, our insurance agent says this is OK.
Another example is an event I helped with last season. A summer recreation group in Ogunquit wanted to visit Seashore so that the kids could visit and experience our trolley museum. But they didn't have enough money for a charter bus. So we offered to transport them for free to/from the Museum (only about 10 miles) as a public/community service. The kids got to experience true multi-modal transportation, and as both the bus driver and trolley operator, I was able to talk to them about the differences between the modes, and their places in history.
But I understand your worry. As one of the drivers licensed to operate the buses off-property, I wanted to hear the agent's guidance before I took part in any of these operations. If you write me off-line, I'll send you referrals on others with whom you can correspond on this.
Todd:
Thanks for the explanation! Obviously, for some reason IRM's insurance is has considerably more stringent requirements. I appreciate the offer of referrals of people to discuss this with, but I must decline - I really don't know anything about insurance, and I'm can't really call myself a bus enthusiast! I know this issue is being dealt with here, though, so I was curious. In the past, IRM's motor bus fleet had essentially one purpose: to go to parades, fairs and other events and "fly the flag." In recent years, its role has been expanded and the seeds of an historic bus collection are being energetically sown. Whether this is good or bad is the subject of some debate.
I wonder if this actually belongs on BusTalk... hmm... :-)
Frank Hicks
..."I wonder if this actually belongs on BusTalk... hmm... :-)"...
Frank,
If it's being operated at a Trolley Museum or Mass Transit Museum,
and the two components are intergrated to bring forth the experience
of ground transportation, why not on SubTalk.
Look at our situation at Branford, many are negative to any form of
"Rapid Transit" on our railway. Even though our collection consists
of units, that would represent surface operation on the streets of
Brooklyn.
How about Baltimore Streetcar Museum, operating a Trolley Coach.
Nice picture of it in the October issue of Railpace Magazine.
IMO, ;| ) Sparky
[... intergrated to bring forth the experience
of ground transportation {buses & steel wheeled stuff}, why not on SubTalk ...]
I was probably one of the early ones so many years ago on this site that was asking BUS questions. Subway guys made some comments about their being upset with this topic being discussed. Anyhow Dave decided to set up a seperate site. I for one think it has worked out for the best. I still go there to LEARN & sometimes answer customer questions.
[Look at our situation at Branford, many are negative to any form of
"Rapid Transit" on our railway.]
Right, how much of a threat can 15% of the collection pose ?
Labor & $ wise I'll bet the rt group accounts for more then 15%, that should please the trolley guys. After all it's still a "trolley museum", nothing is going to change that, not even a trackless trolley or a GM old look smoking it up.
I think Seashore has the right idea. They have a fairly large bus division & the buses pay their dues by showuing the flag at parades or picking up large charter groups.
We're booked into the Motel 6 in Branford for the night before and night following and have roadster since we'll be coming down via Mass Pike through Springfield (that's why no sidetrip to the city and the insane traffic) ... I'm hoping we'll still be meeting up for that breakfast though - it'd be nice to be able to join you guys ahead of "showtime" so's Nancy and I can climb up and do the "wake up ritual" for 1689 ... that was always the highlight of my oh dark hundred mornings at Coney, climbing up and waking them from the deep sleep.
I even remember that you have to turn on the compressor AND the battery charger! :)
Hey Kevin,
Big Lou will be at Branford on Saturday, October 12 Dispatching,
if you stop by earlier that day. Not sure, where he's staying that
evening either, so you may have another at Motel 6. Sure he'll
advise us tommorow.
Steve B,
With Big Lou doing his thing on Saturday, as well, I'll most likely
fetch you at your abode. E~mail me, the name, adress & phone and
we will put the final time together. Looks like at least six for
now for Breakfast at the "Twin Pines".
;| ) Sparky
COOL! We'll probably get there around sunset on Saturday, maybe we can hook up ... and from what you guys have said about them pines, looks like 1689 won't be the only thing taking a dump. Heh.
I'll email Lou and see what we can shake loose for the event.
I'll be there for breakfast... would come up the night before (I've been invited to dinner in Poughkeepsie on the 12th - my old college theatre group is having a reunion - and could just scoot east from there) but my wife will still be out of town and I'm not inclined to leave Jr. alone in the house with the refrigerator any longer than necessary :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Be looking forward to it greatly ... since you guys have experience with the (ahem) "fare" at that place, I'll be counting on you guys telling me what not to touch. I'm a big fan of omelettes if they're edible. Only trains should do the "big dump." :)
Well, you may have noticed from another post that I'm not terribly fond of the place, it's just that there isn't much to choose from in that town. I normally have a Belgian waffle with blueberries and whipped cream, with a couple of scrambled eggs on the side (skip what passes for potatoes and toast). That and a large orange juice gets me through to lunchtime - of course, it's really my second breakfast since I've had a Coke or two, some cheese and some peanuts much earlier in the morning. One of the operators who occasionally rides up with me usually orders an omlette and it doesn't look too bad, but I've never had one there myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well ... just 'tween you me and the fencepost, I developed quite a love for the dreck they served at the old Waffle House while I was down south. I'd give my left nut for another Bubba's Barbeque too, but he won't let ya but quantity to take home nor will he ship it ... not even the hush puppies (www.bubbasbarbecue.com for the curious) ... now a breakfast at a Waffle House would have been the teats. :)
I guess we'll have to be the lab rats for this caper then - may need to do a battery run back to the ole hotel though but we'll see. Heh. I'm really looking forward to this ...
now a breakfast at a Waffle House would have been the teats
Looks like either a typo or a classic Freudian slip!
Heh. You can have milk in your coffee, it's OK hun ... :)
Its a greek diner, go there because it is so close by and the Ground Round doesn't serve breakfast. (Only go to the Ground Round for the hard drinks I beleive >G<).
I can not make Saturday as I was over ridden by my personal dispatcher. I will join Sparky for the ride up Sunday and Breakfast at the Twin Pines.
I can always call Motel 6 on the way up and ask for your room. (Give a call to the Extra Extra Board)
Be looking forward to it all ... so I get to sit the board, EH? Of all the final indignities. Heh. Strange - I actually got a PICK when I piped on board the MTA ship - it was one of those shifts from hell that few wanted. But I got to actually work a regular run instead of being sent all over creation. :)
Kevin,
Being a more frequent eater at the "Twin Pines" and alternating
between a Western Omlette w/Swiss Cheese and a Belgian Waffle.
The omlette is dependent on whom is in the kitchen that particular
day. There not unique, but not gawd awful either. Been patronizing
the joint for 16 seasons. Never had to emergency dump.
As for Anon_e_mous's conviction of the offerings at the diner...
well without being offensive, he whines about the food, squeals
about the cars other then 629, bitches about the rude riders at
the museum, what can I say he a neigh, but still he's O.K.
;| ) Sparky
ALL of you guys and gals seem to be "real" ... that's why I am a member of the joint. Not as MUCH of a member as I'd like to be, but it's the only place I've been inspired to join so far and it's BECAUSE of the folks ... from Jeff to Lou, to Dougie and Stef, to Thurston and you ... I'm PSYCHED. :)
But for what it's worth, we've got relatives all over the place north of there around Meriden and thereabouts. Know the cuisine. There's one of those "Chinese buffets" about 4 miles north of Branford in a mall that was the best I've had except for Manhattan. Ed Koch was RIGHT. There AREN'T any Chinese restaurants upstate (though the "gingham dress" bit was a bit extreme - well, maybe not for Rensselaer county but then Ed didn't stay in a doublewide so maybe he just didn't get it) ...
Anyhoo, if it's standard area diner, works for me. I prefer ham and cheese myself ... peppers cause a train that I'm on to begin smoking exhaust from the cab - we wouldn't want that. :)
WHAT DO THEY WANT FOR THEIR LOUSY $35? TO LIVE FOREVER?
Was in a TGIF in New Britian this summer (went to a minor league baseball game there). They have a BMT curtian all rolled out along the wall. Also crossed the tracks in Meriden then looking for a Saturday evening church service.
In addition know of great hot dog place on Route 66 just off 91, it's on my way to moms house.
Kewlness ... well, we're going up on Saturday evening and catch what we can ... hopefully we can spend some "kwalitee time" ... heh. I really gotta get to bed, been another of them danged triple shifts. Back at ya when I'm more ... ummm ... lucid. :)
Don't worry Kevin, we'll have a nice breakfast. You'll need it for all the climbing up and down from arnine you will do when you go and throw all the switches. We only have one electric switch and since 1689 is too big to fit in the loop, we ain't going over that one.
Hence the energy you will need to climb down and HAND THROW switches, and then climb back up.
The memories it will bring....(climbing that is, don't know if you ever worked and hand throw yard).
Nope, never did any MTA hand throws (though learned HOW) ... ya get spoiled working a (ahem, kaff) "real" railroad. I'll take the Shiny Time station any day after Salaam's saga. And climbing those puppies is something I used to do at least four times a day, ain't no big thang. :)
Yesterday we had a A Division Conductor throwing switches, turning trolley poles & sitting on the ROW working on a barn door. He thought all of this was Cool.
And THAT'S the BEAUTY of Branford ... it allows NYCTA employees a veritable AMUSEMENT PARK! Intercourse DISNEY ... the ability to GRAB handles by experienced (and formerly experienced) NYCTA employees of equipment that predates THEM on the railroad makes this little Shindig (and BIRTHDAY PARTY for unnamed co-conspirators) special. The little "arrangement" that has been plotted here allows those with DEMONSTRABLE motorman experience (as well as those who require some school car first to begin the ropes) to operate a train under supervision NEXT weekend.
For those who are familiar with SMEE, Arnines are NOT "self-lapping" ... you have to use the "force" WISELY (or when you pull, you get "ooo-gots") and come to depend on MANUAL lapping. Pull, hold, release is NOT the way mama did it back in the days of the "Arnine" ... you had to know "electic hold, air hold" and LAP ... anyone in RTO who is interested, here's your CHANCE ...
JOIN Branford, sign up online at http://www.bera.org/ (and bring some extra cash for "handle time") and they'll do what they can do as far as arranging same goes ... that was the reason I got into this thing myself - let's have some fun on "charter time" with AMUE braking. A GENUINE hoot compared to what YOU folks know. :)
To contact Branford's folks about joining us *NEXT* weekend (Columbus Holiday) and actually RIDE an Arnine (and if you contribute, maybe get some "handle time" if you're ready for it) drop by HERE:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/events.cgi
Scroll on down to "October 13, 2002: and contact information is there. RIDE with Selkirk and my "born-foamer" wiffy ... YES, gurls can be into trains, And SHE'S more into it than *I* am! :)
Yeah, that's what worries me about running 1689 - the brake valve. I just don't want to end up dumping or crashing it.
Pilot Lou will be right there. He won't let you extend the ROW :-)
Yah, I've got experience. The last new member that took the handles on Autumn in NY ruined my underwear. We are at Short Beach with 2 feet of track in front of us. I'm instructing him how to remove the brake handle when he puts the controller into full parallel with the brakes released (he missed the knoch), good thing the lack of power at the end of the line!!
Slapped his hand off the controller and we dumped.
I assume whoever that was will get VERY strong scrutiny if they sign up for operator training :-o»
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is good news to me...
66 and I-91? That's in Meriden. 66 is now I-691, unless they've renamed East Main St. Rt. 66.
I know that area well, having lived in Cheshire in the early and mid-70s.
Right you are, it's where I get off on the way to Middletown & mom's house. I like to think I'm traveling on Route 66, even if has nothing to do with the one out west :-(
That's when we'd ask you to play conductor.:)
Yeah, I get it ... open the rear storm door, assume the position and if she dewires, I can push her to the next gap by jet propulski. Thankyouverymuch. :)
Eees good Komrade...Propulsky is 50/50 Windex/denatured alcohol...cleans propulsion motors and groupbox...ammonia masks alcohol. Don't want a power test with a group box going Kaboomsky.
Thankyouverrrrymuch....pleeese watch the closing of the opening doors.
Ah, but JET propulski produces an invisible flame. :)
And where will the breakfast be and what time??? CI Peter
That's up to Unca Lou and Sparky, the guidance counselors for the event. I'll already be in town the day before so whatever they decide on as far as their itinerary is what we do ...
Kevin...I'm up at 0430 everday and will have to ask Father Bill for special dispensation. What is the frequency? You guyz go to Sambos?
Sunday Ecumenical Service? CI Peter
For anyone interested, details are here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/events.cgi
Scroll down to "Sunday October 13th" ...
As to that Sunday, no ... we'll be officially on "heretic status" with Father Toole here. Can't wait to see what the Branford folks have for toys and sitting back and taking it all in. Haven't had a single day off this year, this is going to be a REAL treat. Unca Lou, Sparky, I *think* Unca Steve and a few others are planning to get together that the "Pines" restaurant ... exact time is still dependent on when they get there since they're coming up from I think Queens ...
Sea Beach Fred and I are talking about going to Mass on Saturday afternoon in the city. My sister's old parish, St. Francis Xavier, is a few blocks from my hotel. My niece was baptized there.
Yeah, we have the same deal here at St Matt's at the bottom of our hill. Having a church and a cool priest as neighbors makes life for both of us much better. Since it looks like there won't be a "day before" we'll probably go here ...
Kevin,
At this time, I'll fetch my riders in Manhattan about 6 AM, so
we will be at the "Twin Pines Diner", Main Street & Farm River
Road, East Haven, Connecticut about 7:30 AM.
Anyone needing further directions e~mail me.
;| ) Sparky
Oh dark hundred ... yipe. Like working the Brighton line all over again. I'm REALLY looking forward to this madness ... I trust they have toothpicks for my eyeballs. :)
I'm sure 1689 is looking forward to having you on board again as well.:)
0730 at the Twin Pines Diner in East Haven... be there or be sent back to school car :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Me? School car? Gotta getta map! I really wish one of the instructors from PS 248 SubSchool would be present....will do inquiry in MapQuest. Sneak me into a school car to really play T/O...tired of static tests. I do not carry keys and 'cheater tools' for nothing.
CI Peter
Exit 51 from I-95, straight to the second light, turn right (sign pointing you to the trolley museum), left at the next light (right past the shopping center, BEFORE the town square), Twin Pines ptomaine diner is 1/4 mile on the right. If you miss the left turn, the next left will take you between the town square and the graveyard, down to the museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is that streetcar still on display in the parking lot?
Yes it is still there.
Peace,
ANDEE
You better put up a beacon on 146.52 FM for me to zero into....I'm really planning for this trip. CI Peter
2306.7125 is the beacon. Now what's the frequency, Kenneth?
Unlawful use of 2300-2400 Mc band by commercial user!!! You remember Kenneth from CBS??? CI Peter
Feds are selling 2305-2310. So we've got us a pirate. :)
Mine. Mine. They are mine. Commercial users under part 15 have been invading the band and now demand increased field stregnth. Everyone wants a chunk of the 2300-2400 Mc. band. PCS 2 was sucessful...in 1600 Mc. I'm old enough to remember 450-470 as not reliable, 800 Mc. was a dream. R143 L trainsets were to use 2300 band for comm...I did make notifications of the FCC violations as required by law...L's to go to inductive comm links. Smucks still fighting for 144 Mc access
for little LEOS....low earth orbiting satellites. Sometimes you must fight for every little right entitled or earned. I won't get into get into law enforcement and government officials going 'postal.' There is always someone looking for a 'good deal.'
Yep, but as they say in DC, "use it or lose it" ...
Steve B & Andee,
It's still in a parking lot, but not the same parking lot dependent
on the year of your last visit, Steve.
ConnCo 855, formerly resided in the parking lot of the "Trolley
Square" Shopping Center on Hemingway Ave. It's was relocated in the
later or mid nineties to the parking lot of the "Holiday Inn
Express" on Frontage Road, East Haven.
The relocation was sponsored by the East Haven Visitors Bureau,
who use it as an Information Center.
BTW, 855 is the only ConnCo Trolley, I know of that has air conditioning, non~natural of course. There are 10 ConnCo opens residing at the three New England Trolley Museums. The Breezers
with natural air conditioning.
:| ) Sparky
It was relocated in the later or mid nineties to the parking lot of the "Holiday Inn Express" on Frontage Road, East Haven.
It was there by July 1993... don't know beyond that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I may be wrong on the exact date of relocation. Who remembers
specifics when your having FUN. Hard to believe it's eighteen
seasons, I'm operating at Branford. When I started in 1985,
there were still tolls on I~95, where you both tokens in bulk.
They were also useful at another location, besides I~95.
;| ) Sparky
I think the last time I saw it in Trolley Square was in the mid to late 80s. When I began flying into New York for my Homecoming trips in 1984 (prior to that I flew into Bradley Intl), I would wrap up my trip with a visit to Shoreline before flying home. Then aroung 1988 or 1989, I opted for an earlier flight and cut out the museum visit. The last time I was at Shoreline was in July of 1995 while on a field service trip back East, and we approached from the east (got off at Exit 52 or 53). The tech I was riding with has a penchant for taking wrong turns; hence his nickname Wrong Way, and although I knew how to get to the museum, it took a few tries.
I don't know how to put a photo in a post, but here's the URL of two photos of #855 that I took in August 2000:
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/hicks/htm/hicks045.htm
http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/hicks/htm/hicks046.htm
This, of course, made it necessary for me to effect a temporary abandonment of Super 8 for Holiday Inn on my trip. :-) The car looked pretty good, although it could have used some lettering. Any change in that regard since 2000?
Frank Hicks
Sorry to say Frank, no change in the lettering since then. The
current repaint was done by "An Eagle Scout" for a merit badge.
As IRM, SERY, RTM or BERA too many projects and not enough laborers
and hours or funds to complete same. Much wishful thinking.
;| ) Sparky
"As IRM, SERY, RTM or BERA too many projects and not enough laborers
and hours or funds to complete same."
I hear you there. I like the idea of having a car out by the road to attract attention, although I realize that 855 is there as a Visitors Center and not just a big billboard. Having said that, it would be pretty neat if IRM could put some diesel or steam engine out by the road next to our sign... of course, the problem is it would get tagged within about a month. Icch.
Frank Hicks
..."it would be pretty neat if IRM could put some diesel or steam engine out by the road next to our sign... of course, the problem is it would get tagged within about a month."...
Frank,
In that respect, Seashore to the best of my knowledge, has not
experienced that problem at the front door. Being an irregular
visitor, hopefully my statement is 100% accurate. In recent
years the front door at 195 Log Cabin Road, Kennenbunkport, Maine
has greeted us with Chicago Skokie Cars, A Red Arrow Bullet and now
a Boston PCC.
Golly, I remember the days of less cars on site and bringing
#1 or #104 out on a daily basis to display.
I may be at Branford most times, but I still have a devotion
to Seashore & Rockhill. [Geography prohibits more involment].
;| ) Sparky
"I may be at Branford most times, but I still have a devotion
to Seashore & Rockhill."
I like Rockhill; I had a very nice time there when I visited two months ago. And now for some hypnosis.
"You are getting sleepy... you are getting sleepy... you will give the 315 to IRM... you will give the 315 to IRM..."
Couldn't resist. :-)
Frank,
Now...now...behave. Don't know if any of the regulars in Orbisonia are
visitors to SubTalk? Like the pix.
;| ) Sparky
I'm not sure anyone from Orbisonia posts here... oh, well.
Actually, I've been meaning to stay in contact with a couple of the Orbisonia guys. There's obviously work being done on the 315, and I think that they've got an exterior repaint in mind. That would be good; the colors on the car aren't exactly correct, although they're closer than what some museums have painted CA&E cars in. Of course there is also woodwork to be done. Next year there will be times when BOTH of the wood cars I work on at IRM will be "out on the road" (in service), and I've been thinking of going out to Orbisonia for a weekend to help work on 315 (if they'll have me!). I think it would be fun, but would likely be dependent on whether I can find a caboose to stay in. Ah, well; something to mull over.
Frank Hicks
"I come bearing paint samples."
Frank,
I just e~mailed you a contact at Orbisonia...Not all Trolleynauts
foam, as much as we and read Sub~Talk. >G<
;| ) Sparky
Is there a connection between the Twin Pines Diner and the graveyard nearby? Hmmmm ......
--Mark
Some of the members think so.
Sparky goes there for the Strawberry Short Cake. The last time I dined with him it looked like he got a double slice. Must have been a frequent dinners thing :-)
Seriously, it's your average dinner, but it's real close to the museum & on the way out of town.
Exit 51, 2nd light is the right to make for the Museum but if you stay straight, the next light look hard right and you will see the Twin Pines Dinner (open 24 hours).
Big Lou's direction, as my co~pilot are easier. Thanks Buddy.
;| ) Sparky
It's gonna be tough for me...I wanna go...and have two weeks to make preperations. Just put up the radio beacon on 146.52 FM and launch a
few flares and tracers...the WB2SGT Redbird Mobile cannot be missed and is never forgotten. Maybe I'll put up a few antenna masts and some slacker/foamers will get whacked upon the curves. CI Peter
That reminds me ... we may need to get together up there before the event, build a holding cell at the Avenue L station with a pair of Iron Maidens in case Unca Salaam wants to come up and drool on the foamer glass. Gotta make everybody feel at home. And SURE, Unca Peter ... you can raise your mast and FEEL the power. :)
I felt the power when I changed out Redbird HVAC blower motor brushes and leakage took me for a ride with the contactor disconnected. I'd be the first to welcome Sallamonellah just like the first opportunity came for me to welcome new CIs to 239th on the second pick. I'll raise my mast upon proper conditions and feel the power....the Lord did Grace me with this work...but the opposite sex is absent. Where be de wimmen Car Inspectors? Yah gotta be OnTheJuice. CI Peter
C'mon, Peter ... gird it up! What's a little zitz among tekkies? :)
You can help me put up the "Avenue L" sign along with some vintage posters.
Heh. Maybe Unca Dougie might want to provide a *NEW* poster? :)
No that one is in the office, not where the public can see it.
It's a good one though, just one glance tells the whole story of WHY there was a problem ... it was bound to happen to someone "on the job"
So I guess, it will be Amtrak for me in the morning on 13th.
See you guys at 10:15 AM as Sprague, pending on time arrival of CT Transit bus.
Peter the Pole
No... will send email momentarily... I will be coming from Eatontown that morning, I had to decline the Poughkeepsie dinner since my wife is still on the road.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Chris - did you ever pick your feet up in Poughkeepsie?:)
Rim shot! (But the answer is almost assuredly yes...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now if we could get Gene Hackman to ask you that personally...
EVERYBODY does that ... it's the law of the "Progressive Queen City" ... and no, I'll let anon answer THAT one. :)
I was referring to one of the lines from The French Connection.
Yep, knew that ... I was living in the area at the time and thought it hysterical. Po'town is a TRULY strange place ...
Roy Scheider says it took some time for Hackman to be able to say that line without stumbling on it.
Heh. I'm sure ... guess you had to BE there (in Po'town) to get it. It's really HARD to explain, Poughkeepsie and its environs is DAMNED hard to explain (especially to racist types) ... and no offense intended, anyone who KNOWS why Poughkeepsie is unique needs no explanation. :)
I want to be there when you see your long-lost friend for the first time. Then there's that butt plug...
I'm looking forward to seeing her myself ... and now BEHAVE ... the butt plug doesn't HAVE to be inserted in the hole on the controller for just ONE car ya know. :)
6.7 miles, eh? That's roughly double the length of the CPW express dash. The R-1/9s could really strut their stuff on a nice, long stretch like that.
Wish it were possible to do it ... it'd REALLY be a nice run and if money were there for a fenced cage around the tracks, THIRD RAIL would be permitted ...
For the last few years I'd have to agree with you Bill. However, this year's festival has an added attraction: the 'Grand Opening' the HBLR extension to Hoboken. That's why I'm going up to Branford on Saturday only.
Perhaps that's part of the reason why the NYD-ERA made that decision
Stef: Several railfan events seemed to have popped up at the same time. The TA's sub-division C scheduled a D Types fantrip for Sept 22 which helped to drain a wallets as well as use up a Sunday. Them NJT scheduled the Hoboken Festival on Sunday the 29 which amounts to a double-header for me. I plan to be at Branford on Saturday and Hoboken on Sunday since as far as I'm concerned both events are not to be missed. Nevertheless I will take Monday off to recoup. I hope to see you at Branford.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I'll be up on both days to watch the store (on 9/28 and 9/29). I will also be off Monday, Tuesday, and Wednsday. It'll be a great 2 day work week!!!
-Stef
Stef, just think of it in terms of far less foam you have to wipe off the windows of 6688, and 1689! ;)
Can't help but wonder if it's due to the steam excursion (NYSW #142) on the same date... I know of at least three people who are going to that instead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That trip might be a factor, albeit a small one. The bigger factor is probably NJT's activities at Hoboken (the former "Festival") that day. There's also a trip the day before that's being operated by a local bus club whose membership overlaps ours, and it's possible that some people decided they would only have time to go on one trip that weekend and picked that one over ours.
We're very careful about arranging our trip dates to avoid conflicts with other events, but (as with the Metro-North 1100-series fantrip two years ago, which ended up conflicting with the Harmon Shop open house) sometimes other (sometimes free and more local) events are scheduled between the time we do our planning and the time the advertisement comes out.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Quite true. I doubt that any of the individuals I referenced would have been going on your bus, because of where they lived; I mention it only because they had considered going to Branford (one was even going to ride up with me on Saturday) but changed their plans when they heard about the steam excursion because they figured that the spousal unit wouldn't permit them to be gone both days and the steam trip was higher priority.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Although it's a long shot, maybe the $40 bus fare turned off some people who could travel cheaper by Metro North and local bus.
If the Branford trip featured a jaunt to Warehouse Point as done in an ERA bus trip several years ago I attented, that might have been more appealing.
Bill "Newkirk"
Nothing in life last forever, so my suggestion to those who are trying to decide whether they want to come to Branford this year or next.
Do it this year ! Too many things in my life I put off & missed out on, but that's what happens when you're a procrastinating like me.
Just watch the Eyewitness a min ago, apparently a robbery took place on the Manhattan bound 6 train where unidentified man grab a woman purse. Luckly she was not injuried during the incident. But bystanders did nothing to help the woman during the attack but to watch as the drama unfold.
great. now qdash will never ride the subway again,
Could it be the Subways are losing their Mysticality??
I don't understand, how can those bystanders just sat there and do nothing about it. What if those robbers serviously hurt the woman? Then what? Are they gonna still sat there and watch the helpless person get hurt. We're talking about life and death issues here. Frankly if I were on that train, I defend the woman. I don't care if they have to hurt me. At least I could save someone's loving mom or wife
it's the simple bystander effect: everyone sitting there automatically assumes that someone else will do something about it . most any basic psychology textbook will give you a more in depth answer, as it is a very well defined, extensively studied social phenom... (heh - if you really want go give yourself nightmares pondering the human condition, read up on Stanley Milgram's conformity studies. - brilliant and utterly shocking ( no pun intended).
Well, I never read psychology stuff until now I was required to read Sigmond Freud in one of my college course. Since you've read it, there is a doubt that I will not like it.
Not necessarily. Look at it from the bystander's point of view. Imagine if you'd see some suspect going at someone. What if he/she has a weapon; a gun or knife?
I mean, not to be selfish but personally, I'd lay low. Better to keep youself in safety. I mean, going against a guy with an Uzi isn't something I'd enjoy!
There's the POSTED ANSWER I had been looking for!!! 'What if the perp had a weapon?' Few remember my friend Bernard Goetze. He was a government contractor and consultant often seen on the subway travelling from his apartment on West 14th Street going to 59 Warren Street. One day, sitting in the corner, five 'YOUTS' stood before him. One said, 'We need money to play the video games.' Another said, 'You can give us five bucks.' A third drew out a large concealed screwdriver which had already been used to break into cashboxes. Cornered by five, alone without assistance, Bernard drew an unlicensed pistol and his anger overcame control over the situation.
I'm no SuperMan. That #6 car had the small woman. the perp and two maLE ONLOOKERS. When travelling the system, I do carry tools TO MAKE TRAINS GO but no weapons. The woman WAS DRAGGED ABOUT and smashed into walls and bulkheads. I'm no Kung Fooer...in a street fight all I can do is kick and scream and stab in the kidneys with a screwdriver. Eyes are good targets too. Two guys could do better but they did not. What I coulds do is BIE the trainset, open up a door and throw the woman out following behind her. This is all hindsight...Praise the Lords Blessings that the victim did survive and will heal. The perp, if caught, should receive capital punishment by NYCTA personel. BIG BUG adjuticates all sins. CI Peter
goetz is the man. period.
freud was a wanker. Milgrams' work is much more based in sound scientific principals. I nearly forgot to mention solomon asch - who did lots of excellent research on this subject. not sure if you'd enjoy such a read (it's pretty dry stuff unless you ponder all the various social implications), but it will surely give anyone insight into why people act as they do in crowds or when told to do things by an authority figure. (i'd try to explain it all myself, but it's a whole lot of material...)
Frankly if I were on that train, I defend the woman.
COMPLETE AND UTTER BULLSHIT!
Other posters have already told you about diffusion of responsibility and how the "bystanders" may have thought they had no chance against the attackers.
Why would you risk yourself only to have yourself AND the woman beaten up? You would not, you would sit there and shit your pants.
I can proudly and with impunity say that I would do nothing. If I had a gun I might do something, but what if I missed and they had a gun and better aim?
You might think of yourself as a hero because you're sitting here and you haven't been in such a situation. Maybe you can comment once you have.
Shame upon you American Pig...handle is most appropriate...I had respect for you! A hero is not Audie Murphy but one who takes necessary and direct action in extraordinary circumstances. You only do it once...the second time about you hesitate because the consequences of what you did the first time ring in your head. Few remember my friend Bernard Goetze and the stupid things he did when confronted by five thugs armed with screwdrivers.
Only a sorry soul could live with the vision of a small woman dragged about having her head smashed into bulkheads. God grant her Peace and continued healing. Give us in NYCTA the perp.....the BIG BUG adjuticates all sin and evil. Hindsight is....stupid.
A hero is not Audie Murphy but one who takes necessary and direct action in extraordinary circumstances.
You have to think about the consequences when you do things like that. If it is clear that your efforts will help no one and only hurt yourself, then it is not worth doing. The best thing is to try to minimize the damage, including to yourself.
Few remember my friend Bernard Goetze and the stupid things he did when confronted by five thugs armed with screwdrivers.
Bernhard Goetz was directly threatened, he had to defend himself. What he did was commendable.
Only a sorry soul could live with the vision of a small woman dragged about having her head smashed into bulkheads.
I will admit that such a memory would haunt me for some time, but I would know that there was nothing I could practically do to stop it.
Shame upon you American Pig...handle is most appropriate
Whenever someone tries to insult me by saying that my "handle is most appropriate," I only take that as a complement. Pigs are gentle, intelligent and clean. They roll around in mud because the evil humans who enslave them force them to live outside in the heat where a pig's sweat glands don't do the job.
Listen FAT ASS!, I been in that situation few years ago. I nearly lost my life as a result. Of course you do nothing cause you scared. I bet you never been in that situation. Either you just pretend to act tough with YOUR SKANKY ASS ATTITUDE OF YOURS. Oh, of course you pretended to act tough. You just all talk and saying lots bullshits. You say, I would sit there and shit my pants. Why you just take a look at yourself in a mirror. I think that you just as fat as the name itself. By the way Pillsburys doug boy. GO JOIN A WEIGHT LOSS PROGRAM.
Listen FAT ASS!
An ass is a donkey, I'm a pig.
Why you just take a look at yourself in a mirror.
I didn't just take a look at myself in a mirror, what makes you think I did?
I think that you just as fat as the name itself.
I wasn't aware that names had mass.
By the way Pillsburys doug boy.
My name isn't Douglas Pillsbury, you must have me confused with someone else.
GO JOIN A WEIGHT LOSS PROGRAM.
OK, but remind me to make sure not to join the one that threw you out.
Wow, "Pillsbury Porky Pig" is threatening me.
THAT was threatening to you?
If I said I was going to come and beat you up, would that be a declaration of nuclear war?
You beat me up! OH PleeeeeeeeeZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
You beat me up! OH PleeeeeeeeeZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! You haven't met me. Once you do, within a sec, u will be running and hiding inside woman skirt.
Well, at least what you lack in brains, you make up for in brawn.
Blah Blah, We'll see about that.
Please stop it! I'm getting hungry!
Nah that aint stopping me. I'm more upset at how people would just stand there and do nothing. Have we learned nothing since last year's tragic events? People sure do have a short term memory.
I tell ya if I had a weapon I would've chased that stupid gangsta down and hurt him real bad.
If crime is goin up in the subways, I'm just gonna get a pocket knife to protect myself because aint nobody gonna mess with me and get away with it.
Yes I am trying to have a new positive attitude about myself, I'm sick of terrorists and gangstas trying to ruin my favorite place in the world.
>>> If crime is goin up in the subways, I'm just gonna get a pocket knife to protect myself because aint nobody gonna mess with me and get away with it <<<
I hope you are not bucking for the "Travis Bickle" award. :-)
You need a great deal of skill to protect yourself with a pocket knife. You are much better off without one. And if you go after a purse snatcher and "hurt him real bad" with your knife, you can expect to spend some time upstate.
Tom
Gotta love all the rights criminals have! :-0
I tell ya if I had a weapon I would've chased that stupid gangsta down and hurt him real bad.
Yes, I'm sure you would. Now what if this criminal whom you're chasing with a knife is carrying a gun? What would you do then? Use your pithy little knife to shield yourself from the bullets?
Remember, gangstas thrive on making people afraid. It's amazing how much they have in common with groups like Al Queda.
If we fear them, we have let them win. Any crime, no matter big or small, must be fought with the iron fist of the law. And if police aren't around to stop them, it is our duty to stop them.
Yes, chances are going against a heavily armed gangsta aren't good. But if I'm gonna get mugged by them anyway, I'm gonna fight back.
"LETS ROLL!"
I like this side of you.
Pocket knife, John? That ain't nothing. Might I suggest a Luger, or perhaps an AK-47? That might be more your style...and certainly easier to conseal than a rocket-launcher...;)
That in fact my NOT be a bad thing...
Why the hell didn't the witnesses use the emergency intercom?!?!?!?!? I would slap them around for their STUPIDITY!!!!!
NEWSDAY reports the snatched backpack contained
the woman's checkbook...... I PRAY those checks
did NOT have her HOME address on them....
And IIRC, she was dragged by the bagstraps and
hit her head on the side of the subway car
as it was leaving the station (with perp
re-boarding the train from between cars)...
(all from Newsday)
Wonder is any of those passengers lived at Lefferts Boluevard and Austin Street in Kew Gardens in 1964...
heh! I was thinking the same thing.
Refresh my memory. I vaguely remember a story about a woman who was attacked near that intersection while no one did a thing to help.
I don't know! I was wondering that myself.
Refresh my memory. I vaguely remember a story about a woman who was attacked near that intersection while no one did a thing to help.
Kitty Genovese. She was killed at that corner -- a fairly busy one next to the LIRR Kew Gardens stop -- and neighbors heard her screams as she was being stabbed to death but did nothing. The idea of crime being out of control in New York City really began with this incident, and continued until the crime rate plunge 30 years later.
It's amazing that crime has dropped as far as it has. I recall a time when someone getting mugged or beat up on the subway would never come close to even being reported in the news - it was a nightly event.
What time did this robbery happen? I heard it happened during the wee hours of the morning, which may explain why no one tried to help the lady. Anyway........
While at work tonight, I heard a series of transmission between Command Center and a s/b 6 at Whitlock. The T/O stated that there was a passenger under his train. As a result, power was turned off, trains were being turned everywhere, and Lexington Ave was a mess. Of course, all this was going on during the PM rush. The T/O then reported that the passenger refused to come out, and police were immediately called to the scene.
The funniest part was when Command asked, "xxxx/Pel, are you moving yet?", to which the T/O responded, "not yet, police are still trying to get the straight jacket on the guy."
According to the report from channel 7 Eyewitness News, it happen around morning rush.
Well, LuchAAA, it sure is a crazy Friday with all kinds of things going on.
Hmmm. I thought I read an article in one of today's paper's about the incident on the 6, which is why I thought it happened early in the morning, before deadlines. Oh well.
That was two diffrent cases. Ok I was stuck at Longwood Ave. There was a Pelham Express out of the Bridge with a 12-9 at E 143 Street and Power was removed on all tracks from E 149 to 3 Ave. The guy was not injured but was holding on to something under the train and did not want to come out. The thing at Witlock was the T/O saw a person walking on the catwalk from the portal to Witlock Station. The report from Control started out as a EDP person on the roadbed at Hunts Point. Now Police where waiting for the Person however when the guy seen the Police Officer he crossed on to the Middle track and started kicking the 3rd rail. Power was then cut from Longwood Ave to Soundview. I spent 3Hours and 30 Minutes on the train. It really seemed like nothing coming from the No.1/2 Lines.
I was reading in the post that the incident happened at 3:30am on Friday morning. According to the article, the woman was headed to her job at the South Street Seaport when 2 men attacked her and stole her backpack. They dragged her onto the platform where she hit her head on the train. The 2 men then got back on the train.
someone could have reported the incident to the conductor who would have had police meet the train at the next stop. perpetrators may have been caught. the two men in the car did not do this.
You'll have to excuse me, I was walking down market street yesterday and this occured to me, Do the MFL and the Subway-Surface lines form an express local service. You have the MFL in the middle, stopping at 13th, 15th, and 30th, while the Sub Surface tunnels cling to the outside, making additional stops at 19th and 22nd. My queston is, even though these are two totally incompatible vehicles, and the distance traveled by this tunnel is very small, is this tunnel a local express service in the manner of most Manhatten trunk lines?
Yes, MFL trains do run express from 34th to 15th. If you want to go to 33rd, 22nd or 19th you need to transfer to a Surface Subway train.
Click Here
That is sad. Listening to a guy committing such act. I don't understand. Its bad enough that We as a New Yorkers already suffered from a 9/11 tragedy and recently knowing that our OWN PEOPLE BETRAYING our country and our freedom. And now everyone is starting to act stupid. Whats is going on with the people of this country. Aren't we forgetting that there are two low-life Middle East Bitches out there (Osama and Saddam) coming after all of us. Aren't we suppose to helping each other out to stop those low-life bitches for attacking us. What is so special about Osama and Saddam? I don't find anything special those two, except that they are nothing, but a LOW-LIFE SKANKY ASS BITCHES in mines and 9/11 victims' books. Excuse my french. I'm really really pissed.
Oh get over yourself. Conductors have been skimming fares since the first trolley rolled through downtown Richmond. Most of the houses at the Jersey Shore were built one nickle at a time. Its should be considered SOP and the RR's should write it into their budgets.
Conductors have been skimming fares since the first trolley rolled through downtown Rich.mond.
Actually way before that. Don't forget horsecars and buses and hacks and I wouldn't be surprised if stagecoach operators had a way of grabbing part of the fare.
But this story is so incredible. If I were his lawyer I would plead insanity. Turning in an average $1.47 when the average fare is $6.64 isn't skimming. Taking one of two nickels out of ten is skimming. Taking almost eight nickels out of ten and giving the boss two is called a ticket to jail.
The company had to notice that:
1. This conductor's receipts were way lower than the average.
2. The consudctor's receipts were lower than the other conductors on the same trains.
3. The conductor's average receipt is less than the minimum fare (without penalty) of $1.50.
4. The prices punched on his tickets didn't match the zones the passenger was going to or else he was punchubg the zones wrong so other conductors would notice on connecting trains and question the passengers.
There's got to be something wrong with the guy. Maybe he's deep in debt and thought he could get away with this before retiring and taking off for Bermuda or something.
>>> Maybe he's deep in debt and thought he could get away with this before retiring and taking off for Bermuda or something. <<<
The article mentioned that he had been skimming since 1993. A long time to be making a pre-retirement sting. My guess is he started with much smaller amounts, and when it got no attention by management, the amounts gradually became larger and larger and his lifestyle became dependent on the extra income.
Tom
. The prices punched on his tickets didn't match the zones the passenger was going to or else he was punchubg the zones wrong so other conductors would notice on connecting trains and question the passengers.
The tickets you buy on the train are two-part. He probably unfolded the parts, punched the regular fare with the correct fare zones on the passenger's copy, then punched the much lower fare and perhaps different zones on his own copy, which he would turn in to the LIRR.
Which is why they call it "splitting."
You are a paragon of contradiction. In the past you have admonished people for taking refunds from AMTRAK when they're late, because it hurts the railroad. NOW you condone conductors stealing from the railroad. If you are going to make assinine statements at least try for some semblance of consistancy.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>> [From the article] Perri, who has worked for the LIRR for nearly three decades, acknowledged skimming cash receipts since 1993 <<<
It took them this long to notice his receipts were so much lower than the other C/Rs? That does not say much for the LIRR auditing procedures.
Tom
What's more, it boggles my mind that it took this long for any passenger to notice that their copy of the receipt stated less money than they actually paid. I look at my receipts, but maybe nobody else does.
Or maybe the LIRR just waited until it became lots of money so that they could throw a heavier book at him.
I think he made the passenger receipt OK but he made his copy different to turn in.
The rule of thumb in auditing is that it should take collusion to get away with someting like that otherwise it is weak internal control.
I think he made the passenger receipt OK but he made his copy different to turn in.
That would take some fancy (and obvious) punching. You punch both pieces of the form at the same time, then tear them apart. He would have to open the form and do a lot of flipping and separate punching.
That would take some fancy (and obvious) punching.
It's not difficult to do. Not that I've done it (or have ever been a conductor required to punch cash receipts) but if you're punching tickets from day to day it's not difficult to punch two copies. It's not easy, but it's not difficult work for an average $4 per ticket punched.
So I've been told, there is some of that going on at the T, it's just never really been uncovered. The commuter rail cost recovery would be way higher than the current 17% if fares were collected properly. There is a reason why they discourage commuters from buying their tickets on board, they just don't want to admit what the problem really is to their general riders.
AEM7
A bit of imaginative decoy work should find these guys quickly. Send out some managers who don't usually deal with train crews and have them buy tickets on the trains. If they see any kind of fancy hand work, don't confront the conductor; just bring the receipt back in.
Someone in a back office can then check the passenger's version of the receipt against the conductor's version (they do have serial numbers, don't they?). Once you have a suspect, keep on sending enough people onto his trains until you have a case for grand larceny.
>>> Send out some managers who don't usually deal with train crews and have them buy tickets on the trains. <<<
This is probably the sting they used to catch this C/R, but they use investigators, not managers. Managers have their own jobs to do. Investigators are trained in observation and taking the necessary notes to be used later when testifying during a prosecution.
The important decision is to decide which C/R to check. An awful lot of time could be wasted with completely random checks, so the resources will be employed where there is some other indication (such as below average fare collections) to target a C/R.
Tom
Each day tear ten tickets BEFORE you get on the train and make the LIRR copy city zone 1 or extension tickets. Then punch the purchasers tickets for the real amount.
He could very likely do a whole book ahead of time. Sells ten tickets for $65 turns in the prepunched receipts and money for $17.
Still, an observant customer would notice that he was only punching the customer copy, not punching both copies and then splitting them.
But maybe there aren't any observant customers.
Sure there are. That's why that's such a dangerous scam. Even in the backs of their minds, people are used to the sound of conductors walking the cars with the sound of punch-punch-punch-punch-RRRIIIP.
It only takes one person in the know for a scheme like that to go wrong.
Punching one sheet and not the second copy is still punch-punch-punch-punch RIIIIIP
AEM7
"It only takes one person in the know for a scheme like that to go wrong."
Which makes it all the more amazing that it took 9 years for the LIRR to catch the guy. It's amazing he didn't do it to an LIRR executive in all those years (or maybe they aren't among the observant passengers).
LIRR personnel, as with most transit systems and RRs, have passes.
But it is surprising a suit never noticed.
I read that this particular conductor acknowledges taking $700 per week. At that rate he would have taken over $300,000 in the 9 years of his particular crime spree. It would seem ,ore likely that he got greedy recently and that's how it was noticed and he was caught.
As usual, Tom, your focus is on the wrong ball. Instead of being critical of the Railroad's accounting practices (that ultimately identified the crimes) why not focus on the conductor. After all this schmuck was in a position of trust and responsibility. He threw away his career, his pension and a large portion of his life. Yup, he's a schmuck. The railroad goes on.
" Instead of being critical of the Railroad's accounting practices (that ultimately identified the crimes) why not focus on the conductor."
But there always will be criminals, in every line of work. There is no way to weed them all out. Without getting off topic, we've seen that no profession is safe.
So it IS the railroad's duty to have processes in place that find those who are stealing.
Years ago, in the 70's I drove a yellow medallion NYC cab. In those days you made commission, just under a half (49%) instead of leasing the cab which is done now. What a lot of cabbies used to do is ask the passenger if they can make the fare for themselves, give them a small discount and not put the meter on. It got so widespread that some fleets invented a device called "hotseats" where the meter would automatically go on if anyone sat on the rear seat or the front passenger seat. I worked for a fleet that even wired the 2 Checker jumpseats. Not to be undone some cabbie invented a device that bypassed the hotseats called a pancake and pancakes were even sold in the garages. To be thorough the cabbies also pulled the wire under the dash that would shut off the roof medallion light when they were stealing.
When I was a kid I was a vendor at Yankee, Shea, & MSG. It was very common for a boss to go up to the vendors and say "I have 30 cases of unaccounted for beer, give me half and sell 'em." Also when I was a vendor there was a guy who regularly made about $30 a day extra cheating kids. He sold hotdogs which were 40 cents then. (that's how long ago it was!!!) When a young kid gave him a dollar for a hot dog he gave .40 back instead of .60 and made 20 cents each time. Eventually through complaints they pulled a sting at Yankee Stadium and he got caught and fired. They then called Shea (which was a different concession company, Shea was Harry M Stevens, Yankee was Canteen Corp) and had him fired there.
Thanks, for the memories, Jeff. When I drove for one of the LIC fleets, I also had a pancake. We showed 'em though, didn't we. Most of the fleets went out of business
But there always will be criminals, in every line of work. There is no way to weed them all out. Without getting off topic, we've seen that no profession is safe.
What's the best way to steal from a company? Become CEO!
>>> why not focus on the conductor. After all this schmuck was in a position of trust and responsibility. He threw away his career, his pension and a large portion of his life <<<
That seemed too obvious from the article itself to bother commenting on. Like saying those who ride on the tops of subway cars are taking dangerous chances. A dishonest employee is not remarkable. That he was able to maintain this course of conduct for over nine years is.
Tom
Well, if a dishonest employee is not remarkable, meither is a company being the victim of pilferrring. While the media would have you think this is a "Man Bites Dog", story, it's no big deal
He threw away his career, his pension and a large portion of his life...
Contrary to my usual right-wing views, I do believe in reform. If they make him work and repay all the money he stole plus a penalty, I don't see why he shouldn't continue working as a conductor or receive his pension.
People aren't disposible assets -- if someone does something wrong, you could confine them to prison, but if there is some way of verifying that they are no longer engaging in the practice, far more social benefits are generated by having the person working instead of having the person sitting in prison.
AEM7
"People aren't disposible assets -- if someone does something wrong, you could confine them to prison, but if there is some way of verifying that they are no longer engaging in the practice, far more social benefits are generated by having the person working instead of having the person sitting in prison."
Agreed, but a litte jail time goes a long way toward discouraging other employees who are tempted by what they see as an easy income supplement.
>>> [From the article] Perri, who has worked for the LIRR for nearly three decades, acknowledged skimming cash receipts since 1993 <<<
It took them this long to notice his receipts were so much lower than the other C/Rs? That does not say much for the LIRR auditing procedures.
This is not different from the embezzling bookkeeper. He probably started off real small by "accidentally" punching a dollar less here and there. After awhile he began taking a little more. Maybe a year went by, and noone seemed to notice, so he raised his take. Another year went by and nothing happened so he increased again and after a while he got the idea that noone was watching at all...
>>> This is not different from the embezzling bookkeeper <<<
Although I agree with the main portion of your post, and posted a similar one before reading yours, the embezzling bookkeeper is more likely to get away with it longer because of his ability to manipulate the numbers. When my wife worked for a bank they had a requirement that all employees take at least seven consecutive days of (paid) vacation away from the premises each year. That rule was more for the financial health of the bank than the psychological health of the employees.
Tom
What a coincidence! A Metro North Conductor with the same exact name (Dennis Perri) and around the same age used to ride home on my train to Cranford, N.J. every night. Could it be?...
This reminds me of a story a friend of mine told me recently. Many years ago, probably the 50's, a Queens bus driver working for a private company was pocketing some fares.
Management became suspicious when the fare he collected was less than the number of passengers boarding his bus. The farebox wasn't tampered with, and the fares recorded matched the money he brought in. Still, managment was still suspicious. This was going on almost daily. They even had a company spotter board his bus, pay the fare and sit nearby and watch his every move. He did everything every bus driver did and wasn't seen pocketing any farebox revenue.
NOW HERE COMES THE JUICY PART !
The company had a spotter watching when his bus came to the end of the run out in the sticks and weeds of southern Queens. The driver was met by his wife who parked the car near the bus. The driver had an almost identical farebox of his own. He exchanged fareboxes and did one round trip and pocketed that money. When he came back the sticks, his wife would exchange his farebox for the company farebox.
The spotter saw all this and was caught in the act. The company approached him and told him to come clean or face charges. He spilled the beans, resigned and his career was over. Not sure what happened to his fare box and if he was forced to repay. This driver was a total disgrace to Ralph Kramden !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Years ago, before supermarket scanners, when cashiers had to ring up the purchases, I read a magazine article (I think it was the New Yorker) about a supermarket cashier who made about $50 a day with a great scam. Everytime someone came up with a very small order like 2 or three items with a large order behind, instead of totalling a final receipt she would just subtotal it and give the customer the subtotaled receipt. Then with the next person with the large order she would just continue with the first person's order. Thus the second person would pay for the first person's order even though it was already paid for and the cashier would pocket the duplicate. If someone noticed the extra items on the receipt she would just say, "oops, my mistake" and void it. It never really went further than that. Even if the store suspected it, it wouldn't be vigorously pursued as the girl was cheating the customers, not the store. According to the article, it was a widespread practice in Manhattan.
how about the jamming cash register trick. if customer paid with correct change pretend the register was jammed and pocket the cash
I can't help but wonder how many other conductors / trainmen who have done the same are biting their fingernails wondering when they will receive a visit from the MTA Inspector General.
Bill "Newkirk"
I admire NYC's comprehensive and affordable subway system. But I think it is time to seriously think of upgrading this 100 year old system. Are there any grand master plans sometime in the future to modernize or renovate the existing NYC subway system? (For example, the disabled and elderly need elevators and escalators!!!)
Any plans for doing a better job on maintaining the subway system?
Why does it seem that the subway stations haven't been cleaned and maintained for years? There are MANY stations that are so out of shape. I am surprised they are still in use. I'm sure many of you have been the dirty floors, grimy walls, decay, tracks full of trash, and rats.
When I see transit workers cleaning, all they do is sweep the dirt and trash out on the tracks. What's the point? Those cleaning trains that come by late at night don't even do a half a decent job of cleaning up the tracks.
There is a master plan for ADA compliance for a portion of stations.
Limited money is a major reason not everything is perfectly clean.
Some stations have structural problems causing leaks that would be extremely expensive to fix.
There is heavy political pressure to keep the fare as low as possible. More cleaners cost more money.
Management sees safety and reliability as more important than cleanliness.
A certain percentage of New Yorkers are slobs and make things dirty as fast as they are cleaned.
A certain percentage of New Yorkers are slobs and make things dirty as fast as they are cleaned.
In that line, see the recent thread about the grubbiness of Sutphin Blvd. on the E/J/Z.
I can address one of your issues on the accessablity.
Not every station can, due to the way the station was built. Besides, when the subway was built, it was meant for people who could walk.
Besides, when the subway was built, it was meant for people who could walk.
Which isn't really the subway's fault. Until no more than 25 or 30 years ago, maybe even less, the concept of handicapped access wasn't widely accepted for anything, not just subways.
I never said that.
(Which isn't really the subway's fault. Until no more than 25 or 30 years ago, maybe even less, the concept of handicapped access wasn't widely accepted for anything, not just subways.)
The MTA is paying big bucks for handicapped access in "key stations," but it is hard to retrofit for something like that. Perhaps eventually there will be enough such stations that handicapped persons, but choosing where they live, can use the system.
The basic problem with cleanliness is that resources and limited and people are pigs. Waiting on the platform at 4th Avenue, I find a pile of presumably human feces. A person who would do something like that would simply be excluded from most private places of business, as well as the sidewalk of most suburban towns. The end up here, in the subway. So what do you do?
The basic problem with cleanliness is that resources and limited and people are pigs. Waiting on the platform at 4th Avenue, I find a pile of presumably human feces. A person who would do something like that would simply be excluded from most private places of business, as well as the sidewalk of most suburban towns. The end up here, in the subway. So what do you do?
If undercover cops see someone depositing that particular form of "litter," he'd be hauled off. Short of that, I don't suppose there's much that can be done.
I'm surprised NYC's "pooper scooper" law doesn't apply. :)
http://www.identix.com/
The system is dirty because it runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a weeks, 365 days a year and has been doing so for most of the almost 100 years of its existence. Unlike other systems in the country and the world, NYCT can't shut down for cleaning and steady repairs. We must work while the system is up and running, and even late at night plenty of people ride the trains. Try doing all these cleaning duties with people all around, and most of which complain that the system is dirty, yet they are the same ones who turn around and drop bottles, litter, newspapers and all sorts of food, garbage and scraps everywhere, then complain to the Straphangers Campaign about cleanliness. If you are on the train, and sounding so concerned about cleanliness as you are, and see someone drop food on the floor, leave bottle and potato chip bags around, or leave the morning newspaper on the floor and seats, why don't you tell the person to pick it up or clean it up!!! Do your part to help keep the trains and system clean!!
As for maintenace and repairs, I will say again, we run 24/7/365 with no shutdown periods. We are doing our all out best to do all the work that has to be done while keep the system running. You can't repair 468 stations and almost 900 miles of track, along with thousands of miles of signal and electric cabling ALL IN ONE NIGHT!! Things take time, and considering the state of disrepair the system was in 15 - 20 years ago, the system is looking mighty damn good for running 24/7/365 for most of the almost 100 years of its existence. Let's see if D.C. Metro, Atlanta MARTA, Metro-Dade Transit in Miami (well I heard Metro Dade is a garbage dump!!), and any other system that DOES NOT run 24/7/365 will look as good as they do now if they ran 24/7/365!! I'd bet everything I own in the world that they won't look a third of as good!! Hats off to NYCT, for bringing this system back from the cesspool it was back in the 80s, and making it a good looking, and yes, WORLD-CLASS system!!!
[Try doing all these cleaning duties with people all around, and most of which complain that the system is dirty, yet they are the same ones who turn around and drop bottles, litter, newspapers and all sorts of food, garbage and scraps everywhere, then complain to the Straphangers Campaign about cleanliness.]
The Straphangers crowd won't do anything except wait for some slob to litter, or drop something themselves, and then call a press conference to complain about litter.
Stations have been undergoing renovations steadily for several years. Remember January through June, 2001, when there was no local service on the N and R from Canal St to Herald Square in one direction so the local stations could be rehabilitated.
The MTA Capital Program lists all capital projects for 2000-2004; station rehabs and ADA accessibility are on pages 4-7.
You want cleaner stations?
Then let's start by having the riding public use trash cans for their trash and toilets for their waste.(yes, a few are ruining it for everyone else, I know)
Then all you'd have to clean is dirt and steel dust - much easier.
The trackway is not everyone's personal trash can.
'Badges, badges, we ain't got no stinkin badges.'
Thomas Edison improved the vacuuum cleaner with a DC motor.
One CTA on one shift sweeps 68 busses.
Subway platform CTAs move dirt about.
Redbird carbodies are dirty and hazardous.
Don't try to reinvent the TA wheel...it is not round.
Shop vacs are for shop/home use.
I serve Communion with dirty or bleached hands.
No more questions. CI Peter
The Hell with cleaning, we need Air Condition and Heated Subway Stations.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
There is one set of Jerome Redbirds stripped at 207St yard. Its been there for two weeks. There is another set at E.180St yard. I wonder if this is the next set to go.....
Were you able to read any of the car numbers?
9282 and 9283 are among them. These are at 207th St and ready to hit the waters.... Also 8938-39, 9024-25, and 9040-41 could be found there just to name a few. The last R-26/28/29 sets, meanwhile, are still going strong! Surprise, surprise.
-Stef
EXCELLENT news about the R-26/8/9s.
I rode 8718 on Friday morning on the 5. The last R26 cars were on that set as well (7818-7819, 7846-7847). 8717 was the South motor.
Get your rides and pics now while they're still in service they're only days away from their final days of service as more R142s are being prepped for service.
#8718 5 Lexington Ave Thru Express
It is those r-142s that have caused a diamond 5 train (off peak) to be eliminated (or possibly close to elimination, it is still on schedule, but doesn't seem to show up)
You lost me. What are you talking about? It caused a diamond 5 train to be eliminated? Diamond 5s run off peak?
-Stef
Check the #5 schedule on the MTA website, look at #5 northbound service weekdays and look at the AM times and look under the E 238 Street column, you will see what I am talking about. From what I heard this tran was running since at least 1999
Check the #5 schedule on the MTA website, look at #5 northbound service weekdays and look at the AM times and look under the E 238 Street column, you will see what I am talking about. From what I heard this train was running since at least 1999
My hope is that they will save the last remaining R-26's for museum status. Perhaps those are the cars that should be used for the Redbird fantrip in Dec. I think it really is a sin that the very first numbered R-26 (7750) is sitting at the bottom of the ocean somewhere. I know you can't save everything, but I would have even preferred to see it as a worktrain than "swimming with the fishes."
I saw redbirds 8958 and 8959 (both with a "1" prefix in front of the car #) at Roosevelt Ave. headed towards Manhattan this evening. I wished I had my camera. Sure is a treat to see Redbirds on the IND lines....
R-33 # 9338 - #7 Flushing Local
IIRC, even though 7750-51 were the first numbered R-26s, they were not the first to be delivered into the system. That honor goes to 7804-05. 7804-05 should have been held, and they were in better shape than most of their Redbird Companions.
-Stef
Cool!
I have the original numberboard for 7804 in my collection...
at east some R29s(the best redbirds) were saved for work service
Hey Fishbowl, did you happen to see the other 2 car #s on the rear of the train? 8958/9 and I would guess 9214/15?
Probably 9018/9019. Last time that set was seen (8958/8959)they had 9018/9019 with them.
#9001 5 Lexington Ave Thru Express
9001 is a wonderful redbird... not a rust spot on it
Yep I rode it 2x on the 5. 9001 and 9000 were involved in some fire a while back. They have been redone and back into service so that's the reason they have no rust. Also I emailed Dave P. recently a pic I took of 9001 leaving GC Station. Should be up soon.
Great car indeed.
#9001 5 Lexington Ave Thru Express
Do you think 9000/9001 will be saved for museum status? It would be great if they could save one complete 11 car set for fan trips.
No, IIRC, the work train consisted of 8958/8959, and two flatcars followed by one of the R-62 motors EPXXX. Most of the work trains I've seen have only one rider car (which is usually yellow). This particular train had the two redbirds still in their original redbird colors. Is there a reason why they would put a (1) in front of the numbers instead of giving them an entirely different designation such as RD XXX like I normally see? Thanks.
I saw 7938 at Utica last week.
9272/9273 are the other two.
May they rest in peace on Redbird Reef.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Thank you for the info. Yes, long live the R-26/28/29's (the few remaining). As for the current crop of redbirds at 207th Street, may they rest in peace. I just wish the demolition team would save a few signboxes or something.....
That's right. 7818 rules the 5 line my friends. And for some reason, those old R-26's cars are almost never buried within the consist. They're always the lead cars. At least that's what I've observed. I love their unique master controller.
7818 and 7819 were bounced into refuse service not once, but twice recently. I wonder if these are candidates for work service?
-Stef
Sure. I saw 7818 just the other day. It's doing fine. I'll miss it when it leaves us. It's fast, and has great brakes.
Could be but they sure need some fixing up-wheels on 7819 and rot on both cars. Other than that-they could be a candidate.
At least 1 set of R26 has been saved: 7770-7771.
#7818 5 Lexington Ave Thru Express
I believe Conrail still owns and maintains the Highline, with everything going on around Lower Manhattan, it seems the fastest way would use the Highline to bring L.I.R.R trains into Lower Manhattan. We can have stops at 34 Street-Javits Center, 10th Avenue/West Street, then go all the Way to the Underground Transit Hub downtown. The MTA can buy the tracks, install the Rebuild the Rails, Ties, but down the trees and bushes, create the Stations, Inspect the Elevated Structure, Improve the structure if Necessary, then build any tunnel necessary under West Street to the Terminal. It should cost at least $2.5 Billion for the Extension. The Structure is there, just upgrading, and building the Second Ramp for the trains. I think this is an oppertunity not to be missed. I will draw up Track Maps and get them back to you, when I finish.
"The Structure is there"
Only as far south as 14th Street. Below 14th, there are new buildings built on the former ROW.
I'm not sure about the new buildings being built on the ROW. IIRC, the ROW was over the street. In any event, the structure is gone below 14th Street. Maybe DEA would like to use it for transporting prisoners. Sad to say, the stub that remains between the LIRR yard and 14th Street doesn't go far enough to make it worth using it for much else. CR should have looked at some current maps before dreaming up ways to reuse what doesn't exist any more.
Well, there is always the choice of making a curve off the highline into a tunnel, a little after 14th Street. To go under West Street, its better then spending a ton of more money to building complely new. Am I wrong?
It will be a ton of money too in order to dig out a new tunnel, first having to buy the land to build it, deal with the NIMBYs from the local residents, get the materials to do the construction, pay the workers, divert local road traffic, close off local roads, all that good stuff. It all sounds good on paper and word of mouth, but reality is it won't work, especially if money is not as easy to come by for the city as it was before September 11th.
Right now CSX (former Conrail) owns the High Line, though it is unused. As for the LIRR using it, that's not likely because much of the ROW would have to be rebuilt, most of the ROW used to pass through buildings and warehouses along the route, many of which are now completely sealed up and even been converted to and used as apartment buildings, so those reasons right there alone are why this will not happen. NIMBY will definitely be a moving factor which will see to it that this line NEVER again see a train!!
Secondly in some stretches the viaduct has been dismantled and removed, so in order to run the service, the stretches that had been removed would have to be rebuilt, at SUBSTANTIAL cost, we're talking millions alone for the reconstruction of the structures, not counting the cost of new track, signals, electric distribution for 3rd rails, etc., all of which is millions more right there. These are another set of reasons why this will not happen.
The idea is good, and had the line been totally intact, and not sealed up in places, with parts of the ROW not being used for apartment buildings, I think this could definitely work as a line for the LIRR to run downtown to a new downtown transit hub!! Many have even asked if it could be used for an additional NYCT subway line, but for the same reasons why the LIRR plan won't work, same reasons apply to it becoming a NYCT line.
A)it's owned by csx.
B)thehighline.org - if the line sees any reuse, it will be a park. the mayor and courts seem to feel it's the way to go...
C) south of 14th street there are buildings in the way of the ROW. it did NOT run over the - it ran just to the side of it, passing through warehouses that are now apartment buildings. it appears that the ROW through the building at bethune st. is being cleared out and made into apartments like the rest of the building already is. That entire west village area is now ultra trendy and super pricey, and you can damn well be sure that none of them would want an elevated put in anywhere even close to where it was. I don't much blame them. it's a nice area now...
A better idea is to just run a tunnel from 34th south for the LIRR... though I don't see that ever happening.
The High Line only ever extended as far south as Bank Street. It has since been cut back to just south of 14th Street.
Despite efforts to convert it to a bike/walkway or public park, look for it to be demolished sooner or later. Developers are salivating over the space, especially if the Olympics or Gang Green settle in the West Side.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Any information is greatly appreciated.
I don't know the answer to this. I would figure that new R-46's would cause an equipment change, just as the do today. I guess that they wanted all R-44's on the (A) since there was some on the (D) and some on the (A) at that time.
By 1980, there was the great R-46 creacked truck fisaco. That sent some R-10's on the (D), (E) and (F)!! Afterwards, the (D) was the usual R-40M/R-42 mix.
BTW, when the R-46 trucks were cracking, they mothballed the R-44's and ran the R-46's on the R-44 trucks. R-46's with the good Rockwell trucks were ran on the (A) !! That's why I call it the great fiasco.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>BTW, when the R-46 trucks were cracking, they mothballed the R-44's and ran the R-46's on the R-44 trucks. R-46's with the good Rockwell trucks were ran on the (A) !! That's why I call it the great fiasco.
Bill "Newkirk" <<
Wouldn't it of been easier to pull all Ra6's from service until the fiasco was solved?
Sorry I ment R46's
the R44s had bigger problems, that prevented them from being in service, but good trucksthe /r46s were the opposite
Also, there were more than twice a many R46's than R44's, 660 to 300. I don't think pulling every R46 would have been feasible.
Actually 754 (now 752) R-46s.
David
Right. I forgot the even-numbered only ones.
I wasn't going to answer because of who posted the original question but since it was you.....I heard 2 reasons. From a motor instructor: since the R44's were mechanical disasters it was decided to move them to the A line since if they broke down, they wouldn't affect other lines too much with residual delays. There are many opportunities to "run around". From 207 to 168 it can't be done, but you can run around a b/o train from 168 to Canal, reroute over the F from W.4th to Jay, and run around on the Fulton St. line. If anything laid down south of Euclid, you could go down the middle over Liberty Ave. Of course, if you had a lay down on the Rockaway line you couldn't run around, but in this case only the A line would be effected, and nothing else. By contrast, if an R44 laid down on the D at DeKalb, it was all over for the entire southern division BMT! Same for the Queens IND. Sure they could run around in case of a laydown, but too many trains out there and Queens has always been a political hotspot. By having the R44's based on one line, the car maintainers could hopefully become truly adept in knowing these cars. Secondly, Brighton line riders, the biggest letter riders in the system, knew these cars were mechanical disasters eventhough they were new. They also complained that the cars vibrated their homes because they were so heavy. One day during the midnight hours, there was a nssty derailment of an R44 train south of Kings Hwy. One of the cars jack-knifed and came within a few feet of hitting and knocking down the now demolished Kings Hwy. tower. At that point, they were pulled off the D.
The R44's also tied up yards into knots while making yard moves. These were single cars at that time. No hostlers in the B cars or the #2 end of the A cars (that situation was rectified with the R46), we had to use hand held radios and they sucked! Everytime we made a cut or add you had a bitch of a time in establishing P wire. If you couldn't do that, stuck brakes, no can move! So by taking them off the D, they tied up Pitkin and 207th with moves rather than these yards as well as CI, COncourse and Jamaica.
So that explains why during 1977 thru 1979, only the R40s were shortened during off-hours on the "A". In fact, for a while, you couldn't catch an R44 during non rush hours on the "A" unless it was during a holiday, or inclement weather when the TA didn't shorten the trains at all.
Bill from Maspeth,
Since GOH, the R-44's are said to be better than in their entire lives. Also, did the R-46's ever run on the (D) ? I can swear that the R-46's with Rockwell HPT-2 trucks were causing foundations in nearby Brighton line houses to crack. More letter writers on the Brighton.
Get your calendar ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Read my item of a few minutes ago. R-46s did indeed run on the D, in the late 1970s, and yes, they were blamed for causing vibrations that resulted in cracks in the retaining walls.
David
Yes, the R44 is running as well as they've ever had since their GOH. Having said that, they still have their share of problems and according to a relative from car equipment, they are very labor intensive: difficult to work on and maintance tasks require more man hours than other cars. But since car maintainters in the barns don't bounce around all that much from barn to barn, those guys know the cars fairly well .... The R46 saw D service on a rush hour only basis during the time when they were restricted by their truck problems. I'm sure that Brighton residents wrote complaint letters about that too, but again, the TA ran them sparingly, plus since they were at a crisis equipment wise, the TA really had to had what they had to do despite the complaints. BTW: that was during the era you saw 6 car R46 trains on the rush hour only CC. When I was qualifying as a road motorman in April/May 1981, I operated a rush hour A consist of R46 from Euclid to Far Rock......I have yet to receive the calendar.
I saw a CC train of R-46s on September 5, 1980 during my last visit to the city before heading out to Colorado. At the same time, I saw an E train of R-10s. I had been tipped of this equipment swapping while at Branford a week or two earlier, so when I saw all of this, I wasn't too surprised.
IIRC, people whose houses abutted the Brighton line bitched about the vibration coming from all the 75' cars, 44 as well as 46, which is why they were removed.
Then the D got all the garbage. Did they like riding in the R-40m/42's with the AC's blowing out hot air in the summer?
I had no idea why the cars left, and thought they were shafting the Brighton in favor of Queens. It's hard to imagine that the D had the same type of equipment as the stepchild Eastern div. and other local lines that were the last priority (such as the RR at the time).
I think that's about the time when I saw R-10s come to the D ....
--Mark
Now that I never saw. they must have cleaned all of this up by Sept. 80 when I started riding to school everyday. By the following year, when I began mass esploration of the system, The 10's were strictly on the C and G)
Any information is greatly appreciated.
LOL! but of course the answer is no.the R38's,all 40S,40M and 42's will be the ones to go,with a few 32's but not all. the 44's and 46's are gonna stay,question is how many more years.
That's a shame. The R-40 slants will be sorely missed by yours truly. I wouldn't mind a bit if they scrapped the R-46's first. I prefer 60 foot cars much better. With the end doors locked, I find the R-46's a little claustrophic.
A big 75' car claustrophic? I find IRT cars claustrophic!
So do I! Especially during rush hours on the Lex!
Well yes, but particularly so on the "F" train when one of those God-awful subway preacher boards. Unless you have a key, you gotta sit there listening to this guy's S%*& until you at least get to the next station. In an R-32, you can just move to the next car. It's too bad the end doors just can't be unlocked and different couplers be used. No, I'll miss the R-32's and R-40 slants alot more when they're gone....
What exactly IS Bernie Goetz doing these days? The child in me says "preach satanic verses back at them" ... alas the adult in me says, "you already did that, putz ... remember when he decided he was going to cast those demons OUT for y'all? Oh yeah."
At least up here in upstate New York, you can let them stare down the barrel of a deer rifle. You guys down in NYC are ... well ... kinda scrood. When I'm too busy to greet them at the door with a musket, then I just let the dogs loose. That provides them with seconds of amusement. :)
I agree 100%!
-AcelaExpress2005
Do you normally wander the train, going from car to car?
Well, when I get towards my destination (Parsons Blvd.) I prefer to be in the first car (as does 95% of the riders). I have to make the 8:55 N4 bus or wait until 9:40.
That's a good reason to board the first car when you first get on the train.
As of today, the 60 foot cars will be scrapped before the R44's. Let's not worry about what may or may not happen in the long term. The TA changes their bureaucratic minds on a regular basis. Nothing will be scrapped for several years anyway. The R40 slants, R38 and CI R42's are slated to go first. That's around 600 cars right there. As a regular poster here, I thought you are aware of this fact.
As a regular poster here, I thought you are aware of this fact.
Well, I WAS but I also usually post questions with question marks at the end.
As a regular poster here, I thought you are aware of this fact.
Well, I WAS but I also usually post questions with question marks at the end. Surfacetransitfan is the one who doesn't.
No. The R38, R40, and R42 will be out. The R44/R46 will stay around a little longer.
I posted this before. Here it is again:
R-38 to be scrapped by 2007
R-40 to be scrapped by 2006 or 2011 depending on overhaul options.
R-42 to be scrapped by 2006 or 2011 depending on overhaul options.
R-44 to be scrapped by 2012.
R-46 to be scrapped by 2015.
R-62 to be scrapped by 2024
R-26A to be scrapped by 2026.
R-68 to be scrapped by 2026.
R-68A to be scrapped by 2028.
Now there's no need to guess
There it is! Train Dude always has the official updates on important subway info.
-AcelaExpress2005
You just proved the Budd Co legacy of the purpetual train. The R-32s, built from '63 - '65, will never be scrapped!! ;^)
Never say never. The R-11's (another quality Budd product 1949-1981) should never have been scrapped either. Long live #8013!
Really? I thought I read somewhere that the R-11s were transformed into R-32s. Those units were all stainless, designed for air-conditioning, and way ahead of their times, (for the subways).
Actually, they were converted to R-34's in 1965 (although I don't know exactly what was involved in the conversion). In the mid-1970's, car 8016 was somehow totaled, thus leaving only 9 cars. Sadly, the remainder were scrapped in 1981 with the exception of 8013, which now resides in the Transit Museum.
The R-11s were prototypes for a 400-car order which was never placed. They were in the same predicament as the R-110Bs are now: orphan units requiring special parts.
Here's a photo of them on what looks to be a fantrip. Most of the photos seem to have them on the Franklin Shuttle, where it looks like they spent most of their life. How long did they last, and how many units were there? It's too bad they can't let the R110B's live their lives out on the Shuttle.
The R11 shouldve not have been scrapped so early they couldve easily ran into the 1990s on the shuttle and being overhauled with the rest of the cars. They were in good shape. It was a shame that they were scrapped so early. Anyone think they couldve lasted a little bit longer and be retrofitted with Air Conditioning?
CI and 207th have done phenomenal retrofits... no doubt that R11s could have somehow gotten upgraded HVAC thanks to the skills of TA engineering. Age was the 'disease of demise.' After reefing the Redbirds was to come the first batch of stainless steel cars...TA had a surprise when carbodies were found to be totally intact...Redbird anti-climbers look like flaked pastry and you can poke holes in carbody with just a finger. What TA should do is upgrade pre R62/68 trainsets with E-cams and DCUs....these trainsets will run forever with TLC and are vandal resistant...R142s are 'taggers heaven' and despite improved MTBF, continue to show up with TTs like the pigeons that make them their home. The TA got 'a bill of goods' and is scrambling to force vendors to upgrade trainsets before the warranty expires. Concepts 'regenerative braking' 'electronic flywheel power generation' and 'automated train signalling compatability' should be applauded....Bombardier has yet to prove reliability. CI Peter
There were 10 R11 cars, purchased in 1949 from Budd. They were prototypes, like the R110B's. Meant for the never built 2nd Ave. lines, they ran as a solid set on the BMT (mostly eastern division) from 1949-1965. It was nicknamed the "million dollar train". In 1965, the cars were overhauled so that they could run with other car types (sometimes called R34's after overhaul). They spend their last days as the "third" car on the Franklin Shuttle.
I saw them run with R16's before 1965, but only at the ends of a consist.
I thought that was impossible?
One R-11 was modified prior to 1965 to make it compatible with other SMEE equipment after R-16 6494 was wrecked. As to what specifically was modified, I don't know.
I saw the R34s every school day on the Franklin Av. Shuttle, 1965-1967. They were 3-car consists. Apparently, there were three such consists dedicated to the shuttle during that time, as I don't recall seeing any other equipment on the shuttle during those years.
That's possible. They were limited to the shuttle after rebuilding for the most part.
They made a brief appearance on the B in the fall of 1968 while signed as a 3-West End train.
Yeah, I've seen pictures of it on this site. Unusually, though, it was running on Broadway, not 6th Ave.
I didn't know the BMT platforms were long enough to accomadate a full 600 ft set on the Eastern Division! How come 600 ft sets are not now in service on the Eastern division? How long were the southern divisions platforms in the '50s prior to IND/BMT unification?
I feel so misinformed.
avid
They're not, nor were ever 600' long. The R11's ran there as a solid set, but a solid set of 8.
I posted this before. Here it is again:
R-32 to be scrapped by 2011-2012
R-38 to be scrapped by 2007
R-40 to be scrapped by 2006 or 2011 depending on overhaul options.
R-42 to be scrapped by 2006 & (MK) R-42 by 2011 depending on overhaul options.
R-44 to be scrapped by 2012.
R-46 to be scrapped by 2015.
R-62 to be scrapped by 2024
R-26A to be scrapped by 2026.
R-68 to be scrapped by 2026.
R-68A to be scrapped by 2028.
Now there's no need to guess
Now there's no need to guess
But there will be a need to repost it again and again since we don't bother to look at archives here. Hope you don't have a scrap date for VT1100s.
Nope. Might consider selling one (VT1100C) but scrapping a VT1100 - never!!!
whaty about R142,143,160?
R142s are A-division cars. They won't be running on the lettered lines any time soon. R143s are coming in to expand the B-Division fleet (you could say they're the long awaited replacements for the BMT Redbirds, the R30s) and will be on the L and M lines. They won't be scrapped until about 2045 or so, much to the dismay of more than a few anti-R142/143 folks on this board.
The R-142/R-142A are planned to be scrapped in 2040. There is no planned date for the R-143 or R-160 as yet.
its nice to see that the r32 will be around longer than the 40s and 42s.
No it's not.
If you could, please explain what the overhaul options are for the R40, R40M and R42. Just curious.
thanks in advance,
wayne
No, the 160s will be scrapped as soon as they come in. This is to save the operating and maintenance costs of them over a 40 year lifespan. :-P
Love your logic ... there's a shiny bright future for ya in state service! :)
I notice most of the people who make posts showing a lack of intelligence, often post without an e-mail address.
LOL...LOL....LOL.!!!
1. A question should end with a question mark, not a period.
2. The R44s were removed from the D because they were being used on the D when their problems arose. If they'd been on another line, they would have been removed from that line.
Actually, it's more complicated than that. I've mentioned it here before, but it's been a while, so...
During the late 1970s, the owners of properties along the Brighton Line right-of-way became concerned about vibrations from the trains damaging the retaining walls separating their properties from the subway. They specifically blamed the 75-foot cars. The D was one of the first places the R-44s were assigned when new, then R-46s were assigned there, then R-44s again. On the early morning of January 16, 1981, there was a particular violent derailment on the switches south of Kings Highway, and a train of R-44s almost landed in several backyards. The cars were yanked immediately, and 75-footers were not assigned to Brighton Line routes again until the R-68s came along in 1986.
David
I remember during that same exact time period the "A" began running a whole crap load of R32s. This lasted for five days starting on a Monday. On Friday night (midnight hours), the R32s exclusively provided service on the round robin shuttle. When I woke up Saturday morning to ride the R32s, they had just disappeared, none in sight no where on the "A". So did the R46s. Not only did we receive the R44s that were originally assigned to the "A", but we had the "D" half as well.
Was this the reason why this happened?
Were the R32 originally going to be assigned to the "A" but was changed due to this derailment?
Thank you.
Are tunnels built completely under the river or at the bottom or somewhere in the middle of the river? Does anyone know how this is done?
NYC Transit's most recent underwater tunnel, the 63rd Street Tunnel, was built like this:
Holes were dug in the East and West Channels of the East River. Prefabricated tunnel sections, which were brought to the area by boat, were then dropped into the holes. The sections were then covered with riprap (stone and such).
David
When the holes were dug, did they open into the river? If they did, wouldn't the water rush in? Also, were the prefabricated tunnel sections open or covered? If they were open, then wouldn't water fill it up?
The prefabricated tunnel sections were complete, with a roof, a floor, and walls; the ends were sealed to prevent water infiltration and then the seals were broken through once the sections were in place and attached to each other.
Of course water would rush into the holes (more properly called "trenches"), but the tunnel sections would displace the water when they were sunk.
David
>>> The prefabricated tunnel sections were complete, with a roof, a floor, and walls; the ends were sealed to prevent water infiltration and then the seals were broken through once the sections were in place and attached to each other <<<
I would think they would have to flood the section to get it to sink to the bottom, and then pump out the water once the section was in place. I cannot imagine how they could force an air filled section to the bottom.
Tom
they have ballast tanks built in, or something like that.
Hollow sections are tugged on up to the site, where concrete is then pumped in...to make it neutrally buoyant. Then I think either ballast tanks are filled with water, or more concrete is pumped in, to make it sink.
I read somewhere that the 63st tunnel was built with bluestone, a "watered" weak version of concrete.
The pre-fabricated sections are sealed at the ends. Once the sections are sunk into the trench, divers connect the newly sunk section to the already prepared tunnel sections. Then, workers cut the end seal away, connecting the new section to the others.
The tunnel sections at the entrances are built in the usual manner as any tunnel.
As a Maryland conncetion to the 63rd Street tunnels, the sections were built at a shipyard in Perryville, Maryland, on the Susquehanna River. The completed sections were towed south through the Chesapeake Bay and up to New York in the Atlantic Ocean.
The underriver tubes are built deep under the bottom of the riverbed, designed to go downward from the start of the river tube under land, to go down deep enough below the riverbed, climbing back up to regular tunnel level once completely out from under the river. The boring is designed to go deep below the river bottom. Next time you ride a line going under the East River, note how the train feels like it's going downgrade then midway thru it levels out, them shortly thereafter the train starts to climb up. The tubes go deep under the river bottom, with the upgrades and downgrades of the tube designed to accomodate for the deepness and sloping of the riverbed sides (i.e. river shoreline-shallow end-deep end-shallow end-river shoreline, so the tunnel is built to go downgrade-level-upgrade to accomodate)
The only tunnel exception was the 63Street tube which was sunk to the bottom of the river right?
You can either use the shield method or the pre-fab section method. The shueld method uses an iron shield that let's people scoop away what's in front and keeps the wayss from caving in until the real wall is constructed. It moves alone like an earth worm leaving a tunne; behind it.
The pre-fab method is to sink pre-made tunnel sections into a trench dredged in the botton of the river than weld them together and cover them with silt. The 63th, Ted Williams and Chesepeake Bay Bridge Tunnels were built in this fashon.
The F G O is a complete Disaster.FOr those of you who dont know about it it goes like this,F runs in 3 sections 1) 179 st to EUCLID ave,Queens express Brooklyn Fulton Local ?Passengers have to transfer for Shuttle bus at Hoyt.The shuttle Bus takes them from Hoyt to Church AVe.2)F run from Avew X to Church ave.3)71st Continental to 2nd ave Queens Local .JUst to say Hoyt Schemehorn was in Kaos Shuttle busses were filled to capacity.But for all you rail fans there are plenty of R 32's on the F this weekend.
this one has to do with the track area between Jay and Bergen Sts. that need to be fixed on the F,so in my opinion thats the best thing they could do.
Do you have a better service plan based on the needs of this GO? Having the passengers changing to/from the shuttle buses at Jay St. would be horrendous based on all the other bus traffic there. Don't forget: the G single track shuttle to/from Bedford/Nostrand terminates at Hoyt. This give these passsengers the same shuttle bus access as the F passengers. P.S: Check your punctuation and spelling. That post was hard to read,!
We've been up against this on all our jobs now -- G.O.s cost so damn much because of all the complaints.
Why can you just add lots buses to the B75, extend it to Church Avenue, and tell people to take it? Are non-transit fans THAT inflexible and unfamiliar with the system?
Just one more point here. I don't take to the road in NYC without listening to the traffic report, and to be able to drive here you have to know alternative routes due to accidents, construction, etc. The subway is no different. F train not running? You can take another train and than a bus to anywhere, trust me. 2/5 not running. Take the #6 and if needed transfer to a bus - the are two blocks apart in much of the Bronx. Get to know your city a little.
"I don't take to the road in NYC without listening to the traffic report, and to be able to drive here you have to know alternative routes due to accidents, construction, etc."
1. Lots of people don't listen to traffic reports either.
2. Transit reports on the radio are far less accurate than traffic reports, and not everyone has an internet connection to check on GOs.
3. Most people don't bother to learn alternate routes either on the roads or on the rails. This is not just in New York. I often find that if I ask a road or transit question of a native in some other city, or in a particular local neighborhood of the NYC metro area, I already know more than the person I'm asking and I'm just wasting my time.
Very, good point. In defense of the poor F riders though, the routings this weekend is VERY confusing.
"Are non-transit fans THAT inflexible and unfamiliar with the system?"
The answer? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree that it is a bit confusing. Even on the Queens end, Manhattan-bound passengers see an electronic destination sign saying only "to EUCLID AV," without any route letter. Dwell time on my train was horrendous as people held doors to ask what the train was.
Anyway, this G.O. also includes the C ending at World Trade and the E using 6th Avenue, presumably because of other construction. Given that, here's how I'd have done it...
C: 8th Avenue Local to West 4th, then thru interlocking and Rutgers tube to north of Jay Street, then normal to Euclid.
E: 6th Avenue Local to West 4th, then thru interlocking into its normal route, to World Trade.
F (upper portion): Turn back at 2nd Avenue.
With the flexibility built into the West 4th Street interlocking, this should have been operable - AND it would have resulted in much less chaos. Any comments from my fellow SubTalkers?
So through F passengers would have to take the F to the A/C to the shuttle bus to the F, and Delancey, East Broadway, and York would have been closed entirely.
By running the F through to Jay, both of those problems were solved. But where was the F supposed to terminate if its usual tracks south of Jay were closed? Why, Euclid. But there's no need for the A, C, and F to all serve the Fulton line, and Euclid probably can't handle both the C and the F, so the C got cut back to WTC. And to avoid jams at WTC, the E was diverted to 2nd Avenue.
Given the closed trackage, I don't see a better solution.
the Euclid F's ran normal to Jay St but switched to the A track before entering forementioned station.As to why it was ran this way,its quite simple.
They figured since the F is a long line anyway,that running it to Euclid Av will keep the F a long line with out having to add any extra trains or crews,the same number of trains and crews that are normally used on the weekends were used yesterday and today.
The same thing with the E terminating at 2nd Ave. Since the E is a shorter line,they decided to keep it that way and have the C take its place to Chambers St.
Any takers? First of all, are the ridership levels any indicaton that it would be useful. Secondly, is it still structurally possible?
>>Any takers? First of all, are the ridership levels any indicaton that it would be useful<<
Rebuilding a line, even as a shuttle would be a waste of money. Speaking of low ridership, did you ever hear of the Culver Taxi service ?
In the wee hours between 1 and 5 am when ridership on the Culver Shuttle was almost non existant, crews with help from station agents figured a way to save the TA money (electric costs) and give the neighbors a good nights rest.
Probably from transversing the line between Ditmas and Ninth Ave's,and seeing no passengers boarding and riding, they would stay at Ninth Ave until a passenger showed for the ride to Fort Hamilton Pkwy, 13th or Ditmas Ave. If someone entered 13th or Fort Hamilton, the station agent would phone the crew at Ninth Ave and tell them a passenger needs a ride. Don't know how this worked if you boarded at Ditmas ! Todays NYCT wouldn't stand for this. Goes to show you of all the wild and crazy things that went on many years ago. I guess this was an indication how low the ridership was on that line.
>>Secondly, is it still structurally possible?<<
Yes, if you demolish all those new homes that spang uip after the "el" was torn down and land cleared.
HEY TAXI !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Alright. I was just asking out of curiousity. No need to hound me!
>>Alright. I was just asking out of curiousity. No need to hound me!<<
I wasn't hounding you, just pointing out the low ridership on the Culver and any attempt to revive service, even with the "el" still standing would not be justified at the farebox.
If anything, the "el" shouldn't have been demolished, just the stations at 13th Ave and Fort Hamilton. Install a new track on the center for emergency or work equipment moves and connect it to the (F) at Ditmas.
Bill "Newkirk"
Ok, I see. It just seemed like your post was an all time bad! :(
>>Ok, I see. It just seemed like your post was an all time bad! :(<<
No offense taken. The Culver Taxi service story is amusing enough, but also true !
Bill "Newkirk"
I disagree. Restoring two track service along with having service that actually went into Manhattan would have increased the shuttle's ridership. I'm thinking that from 1959 to 1975, if you lived near 13th Ave. you just walked to Ditmas to get the F, or if you lived by Fort Hamilton Pkwy, you walked down this street to New Utrecht to get the T or later B.
Running the M to Ditmas via the shuttle would have been a worthwhile service restoration IMHO.
I disagree. The line only stopped there because it COULD stop there on its way through. Having the line stop on its way to Coney Island or Kings Highway made sense, but with the main line rerouted onto the IND, the branch became superfluous. There weren't enough passengers at those two stops to justify the Manhattan-bound service, so it became a shuttle and then people found it was faster to walk to a West End or Culver station. Every block doesn't have subway service, some people will have to walk more than others.
I disagree. The line only stopped there because it COULD stop there on its way through. Having the line stop on its way to Coney Island or Kings Highway made sense, but with the main line rerouted onto the IND, the branch became superfluous. There weren't enough passengers at those two stops to justify the Manhattan-bound service, so it became a shuttle and then people found it was faster to walk to a West End or Culver station. Every block doesn't have subway service, some people will have to walk more than others.
No, Pig, that's not the way it happened. The Culver stub still provided a viable service after 1954 apart from the 13th Avenue and Fort Hamilton Parkway stations. Many IND Culver passengers continued to change at Ditmas Avenue for the BMT service despite having to walk through the underpass northbound at Ditmas Avenue to continue their trips. That was because the IND service was not really convenient to where many people wanted to go in Manhattan.
The TA did everything they could think of to kill the service. In addition to having to change at Ditmas, they wouldn't hold southbound D trains at Ditmas for arriving Culvers. They diminshed the service hours, requiring a change at 36-4 at nights and weekends, then cut the line to a full time shuttle with increasingly diminishing service.
The structure at Ditmas originally contemplated keeping a BMT connection, but they never did this, either.
So the BMT Culver didn't jump, and it only fell a little. Mostly it was pushed.
Lots of Culver line riders switch to the M/R at 4th Ave and the A/C at Jay ST. for lower Manhattan service. If the Culver shuttle structure was still there and serviced by the M, it would be used considerably.
I don't think the shuttle will be built again because of the projects planned for the system (2nd Ave Subway, #7 extension) and its low ridership when it closed.
1. No, it won't be rebuilt. It physically can't.
2. Low ridership on the shuttle was a direct result of the 1 track operation. The 2 shuttle stations were quite heaviy used when the line ran into Manhattan.
Actually, if you lived near 13th Avenue, you probably walked to the Church Avenue station on the D or F, depending on the year. I think it was closer to walk to Church than to Ditmas.
In the last years, ridership was pathetic. In 1974, the last full year of operation, only 136,600 riders used 13th Avenue, and just 63,369 for Ft. Hamilton Parkway.
Unless some type of through service was provided from Coney Island or Kings Highway, lets say the M via Nassau Street that provided a one seat ride to Lower Manhattan vs. changing to the A at Jay Street, the shuttle was doomed once they they made it into a one track shuttle.
Unless some type of through service was provided from Coney Island or Kings Highway, lets say the M via Nassau Street that provided a one seat ride to Lower Manhattan vs. changing to the A at Jay Street, the shuttle was doomed once they they made it into a one track shuttle.
That's exactly what I advocated. If only the structure had lasted a few more years, it could have been refurbished after the anti-transit mania of the 1970's and early 80's had passed.
I was actually responding to and agreeing with your earlier post.
The structure actually lasted a decade after it was shut down. They didn't start demolition until the summer of 1985, if I remember correctly.
I often wondered then if they could have reactivated service along the structure during that time, but you are correct, the system was falling apart at this time.
It would have been an interesting thing to see a northbound "Culver" train crossing over 3 tracks to head out over 37th Street in the direction of 9th Avenue. With the frequency of F traffic, it probably would not have created a bottleneck.
Actually, I'd advocate the "M" terminating at Ditmas only. No bottleneck at all.
Actually, I'd advocate the "M" terminating at Ditmas only. No bottleneck at all.
But that termination, and the failure to provide decent connections (indeed discouraging connections) helped kill the old service.
If it were a through service, it could actually have provided a viable choice. But the TA, from 1954 on, had no stake in such a choice succeeding.
I don't think terminating BMT service at Ditmas after 1954 killed the shuttle. I think the lack of service to Manhattan, coupled with the reduction to one track, did the job. Probably as was planned after the IND first prepared to re-capture the Culver line from Ditmas south.
Ditmas has both north and south mezzanines. Plenty of capacity to allow F riders to transfer to the downtown platform for the "M".
Hi Bill,
Speaking of the Culver Taxi, I remember a story of a Conductor on the Myrtle Ave. Line, I believe it was back in the '60s. He didn't show up at Metropolitan Ave. for his assigned interval. He called the Dispatcher and told him he had overslept. I believe the C/R lived at either Forest or Seneca Aves. The Dispatcher sent the train down with a board C/R on board and picked up the C/R at his home station. The sleepy C/R continued the run and the board C/R returned to Metro. Talk about Taxi Service.
Thought you'd get a kick out of this story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Who thinks the Culver Shuttle can be built again?
Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Sat Sep 21 16:30:59 2002, in response to Re: Who thinks the Culver Shuttle can be built again?, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Sep 21 14:51:01 2002.
Hi Bill,
Speaking of the Culver Taxi, I remember a story of a Conductor on the Myrtle Ave. Line, I believe it was back in the '60s. He didn't show up at Metropolitan Ave. for his assigned interval. He called the Dispatcher and told him he had overslept. I believe the C/R lived at either Forest or Seneca Aves. The Dispatcher sent the train down with a board C/R on board and picked up the C/R at his home station. The sleepy C/R continued the run and the board C/R returned to Metro. Talk about Taxi Service.
Thought you'd get a kick out of this story.
Thanks for the amusing story Bob. I'm pretty sure there are tons of wild stories like those we never get to hear until someone reminices about the old days !
Bill "Newkirk"
My pleasure, Bill.
I wish I was a rail fan during those wild and woolly final days of the Shuttle in '74-'75. But that was a long, long time before there was...
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>I wish I was a rail fan during those wild and woolly final days of the Shuttle in '74-'75. But that was a long, long time before there was<<
I remember riding the Culver in the early 60's when two "A car" BMT Standards were used. Waiting in a dingy incandescent lit 9th Ave. lower and seeing that two car train come in on the center track was a sight to behold.
The abandoned northbound stations and partially missing express track I also remember. I'll bet there are some oldtimers here who remember riding BU "el" cars on the Culver before the IND 1954 extension.
Bill "Newkirk"
They ran gate cars on the Culver after the connection to the 5th Ave. el was severed in 1940?
Yes, right up to 1954, from 9th Avenue south.
All the time, or just when there was no service to Manhattan (via Nassau)?
I thought the 5th Avenue service was the main service and the 4th Avenue service was part time only.
I thought the 5th Avenue service was the main service and the 4th Avenue service was part time only.
That's correct. After Unification, Culver-Nassau was the main service, and elevated shuttles operated part time from 9th Avenue to Coney Island.
After the IND took over the Culver, BMT Culver-Nassau Expresses continued to operate counter-clockwise through the Nassau Loop rush hours and Culver Locals operated to Chambers Street via tunnel middays. Late night and weekends, Culvers operated from 36-4 to Ditmas. From 1958 (IIRC) it was a two-train shuttle from 9th Avenue to Ditmas 24/7 and finally a single-train shuttle on the single track.
Sic transit gloria Andrew Culver
It's too bad that it's gone, because it certainly contributed to my being a railfan. I lived on the converted IND Culver (Av I). My friend and I would go into the city and basically railfan on holiday weekdays. We decided to explore by taking the West End Express to 9 Av, then switch to the Culver.
Well, we were both in awe at what we saw between 36/4 and 9 Ave...the ramps, the switches, the multiple tracks, culminating in 3 going down and 3 staying up...and all outdoors!
We then switched to the shuttle which was by then already single tracked. We had never been on single tracked line before, so this was pretty cool. While I was enjoying myself looking out the railfan window, my friend was fascinated with the conductor. He actually used a key and a set of buttons to open the doors from inside the passenger compartment! We rode back and forth twice before getting off at Ditmas.
In his bedroom, which was very small, we would play "Culver Shuttle". I was the motorman and he was the conductor. He had this old switch box with separate on and off buttons and a key, which he used to "open the doors". By keeping him interested, I had a companion with whom to railfan.
In case you haven't seen it, check out the Culver Shuttle Closing pahe.
Note especially the crew picture atthe bottom of the article.
Thanks, Paul!
I don't think there is much demand for crosstown movement in Brooklyn. I could maybe imagine a shuttle accross 86th st connecting the R to the W. Or a little shuttle between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Atlantic-Pacific could be quite popular. But I can't really think of any other shuttles that could be added to Brooklyn to solve any problems for a lot of people.
I could maybe imagine a shuttle accross 86th st connecting the R to the W.
The Sea Beach does that very thing a few stops north of there.
Or a little shuttle between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Atlantic-Pacific could be quite popular.
The Franklin Shuttle is two stops away from there, though it is not as good as a direct connection between the IND and the Atlantic-Pacific-LIRR complex. Now that could be accomplished most easily not by additional rail service, but simply a transfer between the Atlantic-Pacific station and the Fulton-Lafeyette (C) and (G), which should also be connected to each other (being right on top of each other anyway.)
:-) Andrew
Sure it can be rebuilt, but should the new tracks run through or around all those new houses built on the old ROW?
Over.
The real question is, does anyone want it? Would it be able to pay for itself in less than 10 years? Would you ride it?
What use would it serve. The free transfer to the bus that replaced the shuttle can be used. Thank heavens for Metrocard Gold.
Very good post...are you aware that Paul Matus, Bill Newkirk and I were recently considering bulldozing the residences along 37th Street and erecting a new El structure? ;)
I was more interested in laying new track along 37th, then over to McDonald Avenue to resurrect the old South Brooklyn ROW...but those guys poo-pooed that idea....some guys just don't know how to have fun :(
It'd be even more interesting to run Ditmas-Franklin-76 Street. ;-)
Why just make it a shuttle. Make it a new service. Run the train on the BMT in Manhattan, over the Manhattan Bridge, on the 4th Ave. subway line in Brooklyn, then turn onto the tracks leading to the West End Line and then onto a new elevated structure over 39th St. or perhaps a new subway under the same street then connecting to the Culver Line at Ditmas Ave. How does that grab you?
#3 West End Jeff
I like that even better. :)
I personally would like it to be built because i live by the f and need to transfer for the W for school and now that stillwells gone for a while, it would be nice. But i dont think it can be built, i live around there and the former right of way is all covered in houses.
Just what we need, MORE passengers running through Dekalb!
:-) Andrew
Riding my bike up the Hudson Mohawk bike trail in Albany today, I saw something interesting. An Amtrak train hauling freight cars !!
I had to make sure I wasn't seeing things (I was riding for a while, I don't live in Albany ! ). It looked like a long distance train (it had dual level cars) and then after the passenger section was done, it had freight cars following it. The train was crossing the Hudson river going from Albany into Rensselaer.
Are things like this common ?
Is this the first time you have seen an Amtrak train?
First time I saw one with freight cars on it.
Go down the Northeast Corridor and watch Fast Mail (#13). That's a train with no passenger cars on it. It gets to Springfield about 10am, having left Washington DC at around 3am.
AEM7
I see the Lakeshore Limited (which is what you saw, if it had Viewliners) from my dorm room, and it always runs with those cars on the end.
I photographed the first "freight car" on the westbound Capitol Limited a year ago from my vantage point on the last passenger car.
Does the word "Express Car" ring a bell?
Yes indeed, Hamtrak does run US Postal Service, Express and other package services in order to try harder to "break even" ... but yes, perfectly normal consist for long hauls.
Amtrak "freight" is and isn't common. It depends on where you are seeing the Amtrak trains.
Out here on the west coast, the Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited, and Coast Starlight will have those Amtrak Express ("freight") cars. They haul mail (usually in the "MHC" or Material Handling Cars) and the Express cars carry items thatneed to get across the country in the least amount of time. Many of the Amtrak express cars on the eastbound trains out of LA are haling strawberries and other perishable food items grown in California. What they haul back, I dunno.
I read elsewhere that David Gunn, Amtrak's President, stated that they will be phasing out the express business in the next year as it causes switching delays for the passenger trains, pisses off the freight railroads on which the Amtrak passenger trains run, etc.
...does amtrak still run that no passenger, express only 'freight' from boston to NYC's sunnyside? it used to come into town a little after 10 AM.
With the MTA seeming to make a huge step towards making the B division all but 2 car models. Instead of the R-32/38/40/40M/44/46/68/143 it will either R-32/143-160/or 68 within 10 years. That cuts down the mechanics knowlege on car types, and their equipment, giant pro when it comes to cost saving. Giant con, when the R-160 need replacing, how big will that order be? The R-32 and R-68 are seeming to head out the window, the R-32 in 10-15 years and the R-68 in 20 years. Soon we might be an all R-160/R-143 system or whatever the sucessor to the R-160. So in 20 years we can guess the B division will go from 10 models, to a mere 3. The A division is always going to remain 2 car models as well. So any mechanic really needs to know is 5-8 subway car models (except for the old car models which are used for work trains) for the entire system. It's going to be a very different, unifed system
So what do you all think? It is a good idea, because of ease it will make. But the lack of diversity, what do you all think? Just remember, 10-20 years ago, several model trains use to be linked together just to make a 10 car train.
the R46 and possible 44 will still be here in 10 years
Ok, to railfans, it may be boring, and it will.
Though it's better if it's the rolling stock is streamlined. It will save the MTA less money, they will be able to maintenance the rolling stock a lot better since they don't have to deal with all of the extra problems.
I meant more money.
Yes, it is a good idea from an operational standpoint (which contrary to what we all believe - the subway is not run for railfans). It will make servicing easier. From a railfan's perspective though it will become a bit boring.
Hope Alstom does a better job with the 160's than they and Bombardier did with Acela.
I would like to find out the manufacturer, model numbers, specs etc. for the LIRR's new push pull units..been looking hither & yon on the web but without luck. (Not the new M7s but the new cars which appeared in 1998)
ww.forgotten-ny.com
The locomotives were built by GM EMD and assembled by Super Steel (Schenectady). They are classified as DE-30AC (diesel-electric) and DM-30AC (dual-mode). They are numbered such that the DEs are the 400 series and the DMs are the 500 series.
The coaches are classified as C-1, built by Kawasaki. Units in the 4000 series are blind, 5000 series have cabs.
Mark
One item needs correction - the coaches are C3 series, not C1. C1s (only 10 were in that class) are no longer in service.
All other info is OK.
C-3 fleet
Cars 4001 - 4087 Odd numbers only (Trailer car with toilets) 137 seats
Cars 4002 - 4134 Even numbers only (trailer car w/o toilets) 143 seats
Cars 5001 - 5023 Cab Cars 137 seats
what about the C1s?
C-1s #3001 to 3010 are currently out of service and up for sale.
Seating capacity was slightly higher but I don't have the exact numbers
186 seats in the even cars, and 180 in the odd cars with the toilets. The C1's were made by Tokyu, the same maker of the ConnDot M4's. Note that the C1's are in married pairs and the C3's are singles.
what were the numbers?
Any cab cars?
Thank you. C-1s are not listed in the T.H.E.M. manual and info is scarce.
How "careful" (lacking a better word), is the LIRR in assembling a train for service a consist of cars consisting of a good ratio of toilet cars to non tiolet ones? On a short train, a train with all toilet or no toilet cars can happen unintentionally.
From what I've seen they tend to do a fairly good job at alternating odd/even. Even with the old pieces of crap they managed to keep the alternation intact.
NJTransit and Metro-North should follow the LIRR's example, it seems like they just throw cars on, and if it weren't for the necessity of a cab car many trains would run without bathrooms!
BTW: NJT many times will run M & E MU trains without bathrooms... I found this unhappy fact on a local trip from Summit to Hoboken after holding while in the station for 10 minutes, expecting to be able to go on the train.
Considering that every cab car is also a toilet car, usually 1/2 or more cars are toilet equiped. The question is how many working toilets per train.
Is there a published MDBT figure? :)
Bill from Maspeth wrote:
How "careful" (lacking a better word), is the LIRR in assembling a train for service a consist of cars consisting of a good ratio of toilet cars to non tiolet ones? On a short train, a train with all toilet or no toilet cars can happen unintentionally.
A toiletless train is rare. On the other hand, trains with the only toilet in a locked-out car run more than they ought to.
Mark
My Navigator always knows when to quit...just when I start reading an interesting SubTalk post. Happens every time....
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>> My Navigator always knows when to quit...just when I start reading an interesting SubTalk post <<<
Stop using the internet while driving your SUV. :-)
Tom
LOL!
Microsoft Internet Explorer 6.0 SP1.
Yeah, currently I'm using Netscape Nav 4.7. When I get my new system (I ordered it Aug 22 and Apple has YET to fill the order) it will probably ship with the lastest version of Explorer.
Till now, Explorer always loaded too slowly for my taste. But with more ram and a faster machine I doubt that will be the problem it had been.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What did you order? I've almost convinced my wife it's time for a new machine (and gotten a lot closer the last few days as the red gun in my monitor is dieing - everything white is now hi-lite cyan) and am torn between a new tower or a G4 "new" IMac.
Opera 6.04.
Mozilla 1.0.2 ... while Opera has fewer security holes than Aiyee, it's not all that much fewer ...
No it's not gonna happen,although I've been thinking about it and frankly,I think it would be really cool.I love Miami so much I lost count on how many times I've said I wanna live there,and I miss riding,seeing and hearing the Metrorail so much,I wish the TA will get rid of those R44 cars on the SIRT and talk with MDTA in bringing over the car that are on the Metrorail while MDTA orders new cars to replace them.What does everyone think about this? Let me know.If anyone hasnt seen what the Miami Metrorail cars look like,just search this web site,there are pictures of it here on NYCSubway.
If the MDTA cars are sturdy, cost efficent and available, Maybe MTA should consider buying them.
V Train M20 Bus wrote:
> If the MDTA cars are sturdy, cost efficent and
> available, Maybe MTA should consider buying them.
Of course, if the MDTA cars are sturdy, cost efficient, and available, maybe MDTA should consider keeping them. These are cars from the mid-1980's; as someone who, in the early 1970's, put in quite a lot of perfectly satisfactory miles aboard CTA 4000s some of which had seen their fiftieth birthdays, I'm a bit puzzled as to why MetroDade would feel the need to replace their fleet halfway, at worst, through its service life.
Alan Follett
Why do you think MDTA would want to replace these cars ? If anything, MTA should look to the future to replace the R-44's with their own dedicated equipment. Possibly a 75ft car with two instead of four door openings and padded seats. Besides, why would MTA buy any second hands equipment ? SEPTA did that often years ago.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's just a thought that popped into my head while I was on the SIRT yesterday thats all.95% chance is that it'll never happen but cant blame me for having a good thought like that.
"95% chance is that it'll never happen"
100% guarantee that it'll NEVER happen!
I think the idea is somewhat juvenile. First, why would Miami opt to sell the cars? Second, why would an industry leader like the NYCT buy old equipment that another property didn't want? Third, is Miami equipment compatible with SIRT? What would it cost to make the cars compatible?
There is a publication called "Subway Service Strategy" that is not available to the public. While it does not cover the SIRT operation, I believe that the Staten island R-44s will be replaced in 2012 (according to the timetable in the publication) and SIRR will likely get the next generation of subway car following the R-160.
This is all speculation BUT I can tell you that there is no mention of buying scrap or used cars, anywhere in the plan.
Hate to burst ya bubble, VTrain, but the Miami Metro itself is a JOKE compared to the NYCT subwa system. The line makes a BIG U-turn in southern Miami and serves very few true Miami residents....and I seriously doubt that the NYCT would pick cars from a different municipality (for various reasons, the chief being possible non-compatibility to MU with current NYCT cars, or the DC voltage varients among systems).
too bad you think of it that way.but I dont think it is.Many people use it especially during the rush hours.
For anyone who wants to check out the Miami Metrorail cars, remember that these cars and the Baltimore metro cars are EXACTLY alike, right down to the minute components. They were produced as a joint order for both cities.
Oh and by the way, I think the proper type of cars on the SIRT, is a type of car like a modified version of the Boston Blue Line car, or a longer version of SEPTA's N5 car.
No it is exactly a slight variation of the NYCT R-44. In fact, some of them were NYCT R-44s.
"Mdlbigcat" was expressing an opinion as to the type of car that SHOULD run on Staten Island, not indicating what kind of car DOES run there.
David
Thanks, David, in re-reading the post, I see that you are correct. Sorry!
They aren't made by Bombardier.
Who said they were?
Bombardier is the normaly. Kawasaki is the exception. The MTA won't buy cars from anyone other than bombardier or Kawasaki. So if the cars are made by siemans there is no way in h*** that they will be in NYC subways unless it is a fantrip. And even that is near impossable.
NYCT just ordered 660 R-160 cars, with an option for up to 1,040 more, from Alstom. While Kawasaki has some involvement in the project, Alstom is a separate company from both Kawasaki and Bombardier.
David
all Q's will be running via the Montauge Tunnel and local in Manhattan next weekend.If what happened last weekend is any indication,then I'm gonna be at Canal St. next Saturday yelling at everyone to move thier butts to the R&W platform so they can catch their precious Q train there.
I'll bet tile work at DeKalb Ave. may be part of the reaason.
Bill "Newkirk"
Were there any Sea Beach trains going over the bridge one way this past weekend? I guess that is all we Sea Beach fans can expect right about now.
nope,you know full well that the N doesnt go to Astoria anymore on the weekends.It ends at Pacific St. now while the W is the 24/7 train from Astoria-Coney Island.I know its tough with the treatment the Sea Beach line gets,maybe in 2 years Sea Beach service will be to everyone's liking
Poor Fred, as I stated the N is now a shuttle. Im Back for Good, the Bob and Fred Show returns for the new Fall Season, See it Live Sunday October 13, 2002, write for info
There's always room for a few more. Bob can't go to Branford, and I can tell you our show is worth the price of admission. For those NOT going to Branford get in touch with either Bob or me and we can touch base and have a blast of a day.
So very true
I'm going to miss it. Bummer. Someone ought to train a camcorder on the two of you.
I'll be working the Sea Beach that day. let me know when to expect you.
will do
I am SO glad I'll be on vacation next weekend - that GO is awful for the Q crews.
How so?
Each 'normal' 49 minute leg suddenly becomes 65 minutes under the 'all trains go local' GO; lunch becomes shorter, the supplements usually call for early reports and late clears; towers become much more hesitant about giving line-ups.
Maybe this time they will rope off the Canal W/Q platform so at least LESS people will be waiting for the trains that never come. I'm sure even then, there will be people waiting there if last week is any indication. One thing though. Someone recomended "roping" of the platform in last weeks thread about this. I just realized that the Q/W platform does not have columns, so roping off would be difficult.
Plus, all the transfers are done there. Maybe multilingual signs "Service Advisories"
signs dont really help at all.Thats the main reason why people are always brain dead when they're in the subway.they look at a sign talking about what's happening on the line they're gonna take and they still disregard it like it's a piece of trash.Then they get pissed off wondering why the damn train doesnt show up.
The TA will appreciate your volunteer work. I hope you speak English, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Polish, Russian, Italian, Yiddish,......
0.0 i can speak English and Spanish.I sing in Japanese but I cant understand it.
(((((off-topic)))))
I can sing in Japanese, but ONLY "Sukiyaki" and I can't understand it. There are two English translations but they are vastly different.
wayne
-blink- Sukiyaki is a food dish if I'm right.I got 4 Japanese Cd's I play from time-time.it only took me 3 or 4 times before I finally got the hang of it.
Yes, Sukiyaki's a vegetable stew, I guess the Japanese equivalent of Chow Mein or Chop Suey. The original Japanese version dates from 1963, when the late Kyu Sakamoto had a #1 hit here with it. In 1981, A Taste of Honey did a beautiful English language version as a soulful ballad, and had just as big a hit. Both versions were on the Capitol label.
wayne
don't W trains go over the Manhatten Bridge so they would use canal street station?
since 9/8 the W runs over the Manhattan Bridge weekdays only while it runs local and via the Montuage Tunnel late night and weekends replacing the N to Astoria, Queens since the W is now a 24/7 train to Coney Island,the ONLY train to CI.Either Manhattan local or express all 4 lines; N,R,Q,W; can access Canal St.
ok so I may be wrong about it running local in Manhattan.It may run express from 57th St-14st then switch over to the local track after Prince St.But either way,tommorow I am gonna be at Canal St. making sure everyone gets to the R/W platform to catch thier Q train the same way I did when I was at 34th when that Con Ed explosion occured.If I wasnt at 34st that day,everyone would wondering what the hell was going on and been very confused.I was glad I could help out and I will do the same tommorow.
Any information is greatly appreciated.
Personally I don't see it happening, another railfan fantasy? Well if it was possible I would like to see a skip stop service with a another line heading to Jamaica. Just making this up a "X" train running from 8 Av to Jamaica Center. Making skip - stop stops between Bedford Av - Bway Jct. However when u think about it, that idea will destroy the purpose of the j/Z skip - stop service.
Next busfan post will ask when this is going to happen.
-Hank
i hope not?
......."8th Ave. to Jamaica Center".......The physical layout of the current railroad does not make that move possible.
Imma give you an outsiders prospective. Its a 50/50 shot.
A Z train skips about 13 stops and saves about 5 minutes. A skip stop L could skip about 8 stops, and save 3 minutes. That's not worth cutting down the train fequency at the skipped stations from 12 tph to 6 tph.
I clocked the L at one every 6 mins or 10 tph.
Weekdays from 8 AM to 9 AM leaving Bedford Avenue, there are 15 trains scheduled, a 4-minute headway.
David
Weekdays from 8 AM to 9 AM leaving Bedford Avenue, there are 15 trains scheduled, a 4-minute headway.
Down from 24 tph, a 2.5 minute headway, which was the last time they operated express service on the 14th St Line.
But a damned sight better than the 10-minute headway the poster I was responding to thought the line had.
David
Sorry...he said 10 TRAINS (6-minute headway). Still, 15 trains an hour is much better than 10, no (not as good as 24, of course, but I doubt 24 trains an hour are needed on the Canarsie Line in 2002)?
David
(Still, 15 trains an hour is much better than 10, no (not as good as 24, of course, but I doubt 24 trains an hour are needed on the Canarsie Line in 2002)?
I was at a meeting once when one of our signal engineers told RTO that with CBTC they could cut the train length in half, have all Train Operators instead of conductors, and run twice as many trains per hour -- up to 30. RTO said that with the slow electric switches (rather than the fast air), they had trouble turning more than 15 at 8th Avenue.
Sounds like they could put a faster switch in that one place and increase trains per hour some time soon if they really wanted to.
I was at a meeting once when one of our signal engineers told RTO that with CBTC they could cut the train length in half, have all Train Operators instead of conductors, and run twice as many trains per hour -- up to 30.
They don't need CBTC to run half length trains at half the headway. They could do that with any OPTO rolling stock. The recent change in the G schedule is a prime example of the TA choosing the more expensive of two options. They increased train length from 300 to 450 feet to provide 50% more capacity. An alternative would have been to increase operating frequency from 6 tph to 9 tph with 300 foot trains. The 300 foot trains could have run OPTO; the 450 foot trains require two people to operate.
RTO said that with the slow electric switches (rather than the fast air), they had trouble turning more than 15 at 8th Avenue.
If that is that case (which I do not accept) then why did the TA select such slow operating switches?
We know that the 14th St line is capable of 24 tph operation from past experience. This means that the cars were capable of travelling through the interlocking every 150 seconds. If the top limit were really 15 tph, this would imply that it must take 240 seconds to travel through the interlocking. So, RTO is implying that the electric switches take on average 90 seconds longer to actuate. Not very likely.
There are some people that would not like the short G even if it ran every minute.
OPTO increases running times more than is reflected in the schedules.
The operating rules for OPTO are getting worse, too. Coordinating a G schedule with the increased running time would be difficult until the Ct Sq- Smith 9 G was a reality 24-7.
The OPTO G is starting to have problems with drunk/disorderly passengers at Smith and 9th. You really would need some platform people for safety and so as not to clog the F, negating some of the savings.
As for the L you would need additional switchman and dropback crews plus tower personnel, TA is CHEAP. Even at 24 TPH I do not think it was that rate all the way to Canarsie and the rush hour has shorter in the past. The interlocking at Canarsie seems slower than 8th Ave with the switch out farther.
I have not been able to compare this exactly but have there always been timers that clear at 7-8 mph at the terminals ending in a block and have they always used an extra singal block or two as a safety cushion at terminals? At some places like Astoria tht distance really chews up the clock.
And of course it was not a 'crime' to leave someone in the relay at Myrtle.
As for the interlocking
Even at 24 TPH I do not think it was that rate all the way to Canarsie and the rush hour has shorter in the past.
I did not mean to imply that. They ran as follows: 12 tph to Myrtle (local); 6 tph to Canarsie (express); 6 tph to Lefferts (express). The section between Atlantic an Canarsie was served by an additional 6 tph as a Broadway Brooklyn Local. However, 8th Ave did turn 24 tph.
I have not been able to compare this exactly but have there always been timers that clear at 7-8 mph at the terminals ending in a block and have they always used an extra singal block or two as a safety cushion at terminals? At some places like Astoria tht distance really chews up the clock.
That is why the theoretical capacity of a stub terminal is 30 tph while the theortical capacity of a terminal with tail tracks is 40 tph.
There are some solutions. Build more tail tracks or get service braking systems that provide 4.0 mph/sec and emergency braking systems that provide 7.0 mph/sec.
>>That is why the theoretical capacity of a stub terminal is 30 tph while the theortical capacity of a terminal with tail tracks is 40 tph. <<
Did the Canarsie and Lefferts trains run local to Myrtle then express?
That would give local stops 12 TPH and express stops 24TPH. The G transfer did not exist then?
Well the theoretical speed limit is 10 mph but you would lose your job at most terminals doing it. That has to eat time.
I was told that the default speed over switches may have been 15 mph at some point. Towers may have thrown the switch as soon as the train was clear of the interlocking and not a block or two later, I have seen this done in some GO areas.
The current pattern is an additional TPH to Canarsie AND an extended rush hour which was not provided back in the day.
Can you tell me how many people worked those lines then as compared to now? As I said before this is a money thing and you may start to get your high TPH once ATO gets here and all the towers are automated.
Did the Canarsie and Lefferts trains run local to Myrtle then express? That would give local stops 12 TPH and express stops 24TPH. The G transfer did not exist then?
All locals turned at Myrtle. The only stations that had 24 tph service were from 8th Ave to Lorimer and Myrtle. The connection between Lorimer and Metropolitan existed during the later years. Initially the Lefferts trains also skipped Hinsdale to Chestnut until the platforms were lengthened.
Can you tell me how many people worked those lines then as compared to now? As I said before this is a money thing and you may start to get your high TPH once ATO gets here and all the towers are automated.
I do not have any personnel figures from the old days. However, the current choice is to operate 2 person trains or twice as many OPTO trains. That is a net wash personnel-wise.
Well the theoretical speed limit is 10 mph but you would lose your job at most terminals doing it. That has to eat time.
Assume a switch is approximately 100 feet long (block to block) and a train is 480 feet long. This means that the train has to travel 580 feet to clear the interlocking. This takes approximately 40 seconds at 10 mph and approximately 53 seconds at 7.5 mph. Anything less than 60 seconds would be required to provide 30 tph operation from a theoretical point of view. However, 30 tph is still theoretically possible with uneven headways and longer times through the interlocking.
In any case all these times are significalty less than the 240 second time through the interlocking that would indicate a 15 tph limit would indicate.
As I mentioned, my personal observation is that an incoming train at 8th Ave has a red signal at 6th Ave until the outgoing train reaches 6th Ave There is absolutely no theorietical reason for this to happen. This is purely operational caution to the nth degree.
>>Assume a switch is approximately 100 feet long (block to block) and a train is 480 feet long. This means that the train has to travel 580 feet to clear the interlocking.
But the train is not considered clear until a block or two AFTER the interlocking. Plus you lose a few more seconds due to brake tests and the fact that acceleration is not instant and there is a 15 second allowance leaving the terminal after the bell rings.
Coming in I do not remember 8th ave perfectly BUT in most places they keep you a signal away or more from the interlocking.
Air switches tend to freeze up, even underground when it get damp in the winter due to water in the air lines. That's why the business philosphy is to get away from air and go electric, just like subway car doors.
One cannot assume that OPTO and 2 man operation has the same running time. Under OPTO, once the train makes a station stop, there is a delay in door opening: the t/o takes a full service brake, gets up, crossses to other side if required, inserts key and opens doors. The opposite happens once the doors are closed, another delay. Those seconds turns to minutes by the time the train travvels from point A to point B, plus one exhausted t/o, but who cares? No time to blow your nose or scratch your b***s.
When the Boston MBTA Blue Line went OPTO about five years ago, three full mintues of run time was added to the schedule due to the delays that you mentioned. That being said, all of the cries of "unsafe!" seem to have been for naught. I've heard that there has been no reported increase in crime with the reduction from two- to one-person crews. Then again, additional Inspectors (Boston version of TSS) were added -- they roam the stations and ride the trains (albiet often in the cab -- and even work the doors at left-side platforms!)
If our colleague Boston T Party is lurking, perhaps he can give a first-hand account.
(That being said, all of the cries of "unsafe!" seem to have been for naught. I've heard that there has been no reported increase in crime with the reduction from two- to one-person crews. Then again, additional Inspectors (Boston version of TSS) were added )
It makes sense that if you have OPTO you need more other personnel. One possibility is to have conductors on the platform at busy stations, or riding along in areas where the trains are busy. But the last thing we want is to add minutes to the schedule -- unless OPTO made more frequent service affordable and thus allowed shorter waits or more expresses.
OPTO is supposed to provide for special help in case of emergencies. It states that in a number of places including the customer handout explaining G OPTO to the customers. No one has ever told me what this help is or how long does it take to arrive.
But if additional inspectors were added because conductor jobs were eliminated, then operating costs would increase because he would make a higher hourly rate than a conductor!.....I did notice on my last visit to Boston a few years ago, that these inspectors are very visible, numerous and wear uniforms. Contrast this to the TSS at NYCT. No uniforms, many are sneaky, hide out in dispatchers officers much of the day till they are called for something to check out on the railroad, and do paperwork for the line sup't!
LOL. ROTFL. LMAO. A few names and faces come to mind just reading that description you've just given us.
Ya know ... just read the reply from LuchAAA and a realization just dawned on me. I didn't know the TSS' were "plain clothes" ... how utterly *STUPID!!!*
OK guys, Unca Selkirk is just beginning to realize that he has a story to tell, and I just realized it between these two posts. On Christmas, Nancy ("Bingbong") and I came down to da chitty to visit our friends on the railroad. The night before, we sought to meet up with Conductor Dave on the 4 train. He was kind enough to tell us his job number and approximate due time along the way. So we camped out, got there almost an hour early. Having worked for the TA in a past life, I *knew* he wouldn't be early so we just sat and were amused by the "Let's see how they point at the board" while we waited.
So we're just sitting there RIGHT at the conductor position, and as each train came in on the local side or the express side, we watched each conductor drop sash, twirl their finger in circles at the platform, then open up, lean forward, salute the sacred orifice on the wall, do their sayings from Chairman Wow for the geese, look both ways, close up, start rolling away, watching both ways, then sash up. NOBODY pointed at the board, it was various fingers in various circular motions with some looking at the board, some looking off into space, and a handful looking in every direction like someone was watching BEFORE providing the OTHER finger and waving it in a circle. Amusing to say the least. :)
So as it got near "zero hour" I started asking each passing conductor (respectful of necessary rituals in that couple of seconds after the annoucement and before "beat the clock") if they were "job number X" and when they told me which job number I was looking for, each would chill a bit and say "I saw him, he'll be down soon" or "whew! Thought I was busted for not pointing AT the board" ... didn't quite get it that NOT wearing the orange vest that I might have been taken as a TSS rather than somebody THEY didn't have to deal with. *NOW* I get it.
Anyway, when Conductor Dave rolled in, (not sure at this point himself as to whether we'd actually MEET or not) he dropped sash, stuck arm out dropped sash with a thrust like a flipping Samurai, pointed DEAD on at the zebras, then opened up. I said, "Dave?" He said, "Ayup." and so we took a run out with him to Utica (where we FINALLY had a chance to actually say HELLO to him since he was imprisoned in an R62 and couldn't come out to play until fallback time) and shot the sheet during his fallback. Return trip was a redboid from hell, but that's another story for another time. Heh.
But for everyone else running the southbound express on the Lex on Christmas eve at rush hour, we must have scared the kwap out of them thinking that we were TSS's or such. Never occurred to me. In my own style, I was very nice to each we encountered until Unca Dave showed up primarily because I noticed so many of them were quite antsy at my stepping up after they did their propers asking, "are you job # xxx?" and then explaining that we were just waiting for a friend and wanted to get on the right train.
OK ... so here's where we go from regular to PREMIUM ... heh. The more I think about this, the more it correlates and it's flipping SCARY now that I have a clue as to WHY we were so "fortunate" on Christmas ... on Christmas DAY, we took a ride on the 143's on the Canarsie line, took in the Frankie and several other rides. Another friend arranged to place a train where, had I gotten his email before we came down to the city, a couple of extra extra guys had been sent to sit in a train on the southbound local track at Prospect Park as a gap train. The INTENT was to allow us to take a ride back through the MALBONE tunnel up to the crossover and back in, then go light back home. I won't go into any further details as to when because I don't rat folks out. But it was a GREAT opportunity lost owing to emails that passed in the night unread.
Now, we go to FIELD SHUNTING! So I had taken a ride with a bunch of friends from here that had shown up on Christmas day on the 143's while they were in testing and we got a tour of the cab on the tail end by someone with the TA, got to sit down, take pictures and have a ball during the interval. When it was time for the train to leave, we were thrown out of the cab so nobody would be in it while the train was RUNNING. All fair and legal and nobody down. Someone who was told by a friend of mine to meet us came in, knowing our schedule and let us into the cab for a looksee while the train sat. But that was IT.
So day after (night after, I don't want to get anybody in trouble) we found ourselves BACK at 14 St and decided to take a walk down (Bingbong and I) and see if the 143 had come out to play. To our amazement, it was sitting right there and was "next out" ... so ANOTHER ride on the 143 only this time, it got REALLY strange. We took off, made a stop or two and the cab door opens. Motorman was a familiar face we had talked to for a bit on the platform at Canarsie the preceding "day" ... turns to me and says, "YOU take it." I said "Really?" and he said, you know the run, right? I said no and he stood next to me and I ran the train out to Lorimer (I think) ... even did the full serve trick at the first stop up after the dash and she stopped early and needed a bit of "propulski" to hit the marker ...
To say that we were AMAZED that we'd made easy friends and actually ran a train is an understatement. Like I said, it's all starting to come together now ... they thought *I* was a TSS!!! Hoey kwap. I never even GUESSED at that. I thought that a few of my own personal friends on the railroad had arranged "treats" and while a couple did (and I am forever grateful and will NEVER name names) I could just not GET OVER being invited to run a 143 WITH GEESE on board. Now it finally makes some sense!
What I don't get though is that ALL of the TSS' I met were wearing their vest and carrying their bountiful clipboards and all sorts of things completely "o-fishul" ... if the TA is doing "undercover" TSS dress code, then stop and think about THIS for a second. I actually HAVE experience running trains and am a non-malevolent person. Allowing the UNSUITED to enter a cab is really NOT a smart idea. To let strangers RUN A TRAIN is an even WORSE idea.
I am forever grateful to those who let me do so, but I was under the impression that my ability to grab handle and run a 143 was a "gift" ... I had no idea it was "mistaken identity" that allowed me to take the controls of a revenue train ... a little knowledge is a bit more dangerous than I had realized ... until tonight.
Ummm ... guys? Dress code or at LEAST "show me some ID" for TSS'? I think it'd be a good idea now ...
>>> Motorman was a familiar face we had talked to for a bit on the platform at Canarsie the preceding "day" ... turns to me and says, "YOU take it <<<
Are you sure that motorman wasn't Darius? :-)
Tom
Heh. I believe he was accounted for at the time. :)
Well that was a Fun evening on the No.4 Line. The Redbird was only in service for 1 full trip and back to the Yard. I still don't understand the whole pointing thing.
Undercover TSS's yes they are out there. Most TSS's I meet for the first time just say I'm TSS so and so and don't show ID. Most times after the Point and Announcements are done and someone ask you for at Job # or Intervel you have it in your mind that must be a new TSS if you never seen the person before. I know they where happy when you told them you where just waiting for a friend. I had times a TSS would ask me are you 303. I would say no but I'm thinking now what did that C/R do. Most of the time its a TSS checking your operation but other times they want to question you. If you spoke to a Probationary C/R they would be really nerves because they always getting TSS's riding their trains and giveing questions on proceedures.
Yeah, first thing I noticed was a degree of twitchiness and geez, it was Christmas EVE ... last thing I wanted to do was have folks being twitchy having to work THAT night, so I did make it a point to let them know that the only reason I was asking was I was planning to meet up with a friend. Chances are the next time you saw your leaders, one or two of them might have asked you if you had met up with us. But I wasn't about to let any of the crews worry needlessly about us. At the time I thought they were just a bit twitchy because there were people standing under the board that didn't want to get on the train and that would of course raise my OWN crap detector. What are these people up to?
But I never connected that a TSS would NOT be wearing at least that fab orange Tuxedo. :)
The rule is that the TSS' are supposed to wear their safety vest. But WHO is going to discipline them if they aren't?!?!?! If they are on the road wearing a vest, then they can't be sneaky with the crews, especially if they are assigned to finger pointing patrol!
Is it just me, or are the TSS's a little tougher with C/R's than T/O's? That's the feeling I get from listening to crew room talk. Remember, I have less than 1 year in title, and have yet to have a bad experience with a TSS, so it's hard for me to say one way or the other.
Absolutely true.
Ofcause there are more strict on Conductors. 1. Pointing at the Board 2. Announcements 3. Having the doors open for 10 Sec. 4. Safety Glasses 5. Uniforms (Having you tie after Oct 1)
Also remember some TSS's never where C/R's but they had to have 2 years as a T/O. So they tend to not be so hard on T/O's unless you mess up. The favorite line used on Conductors from TSS's and Control is "Your in charge of the train". It been said to me twice already.
>>> Also remember some TSS's never where C/R's but they had to have 2 years as a T/O <<<
How is that? I thought T/O had been promotional only from C/R until very recently.
Tom
The line of promotion to Train Operator is from Conductor, Bus Operator, Railroad Clerk/Station Agent, or Cleaner/TA (station cleaner). There is now also an Open/Competitive category (hiring off the street).
David
No, Before to be a Train Operator you could of been promoted from the following titles 1. Conductor 2. Station Agent 3. Cleaner 4. Track Worker. Most T/O's come from Conductor and Cleaner. A lot of TSS's came from Cleaner to T/O. Now ofcause again with off the street T/O's they can just go right to TSS.
I wonder TA said the main reason T/O when O/C was because many people in house failed the test. This make me wonder are they going to try O/C Tower Operators. I would love to see that one.
Pelham Bay Dave said "I wonder TA said the main reason T/O when O/C was because many people in house failed the test."
If that many "in house" people fail the test for T/O, that tells me the TA is hiring some real stupid asses.
No. The test was meant to be unpassable. The fact that 33 people actually did pass surprised a lot of people. I had a chance to see the unpassable test after two months in school car - I got 30 wrong. Even the instructor admitted to 10 questions he couldn't answer. Compare this to the test given in June '99 - I got two wrong and was number 46 on the list.
According to "them that be" downtown, the SORC (Safety and Operating Rules Compliance) TSSs are exempt from the safety vest bulletin - otherwise they couldn't sneak up and observe operation.
Great operating procedure ... it allowed ME to operate a train in revenue service by invitation without having taken the test recently. Yep, that sure does work. What if I was more nuts than I already am? :)
While I can't speak for anyone else, NO ONE is taking over my train until I know who they are.
Heh. Damn! There goes another joyride ... :)
But one has to wonder why the "real" TSS' aren't required to wear a secret bracelet or ID or something to identify them. Oh yeah, that would interfere with being able to snag employees. I s'pose that's more important ... strange though that none of this occurred to me until yesterday. I'm obviously living a sheltered life up here, so I'm a bit surprised that after all NYC's been through, such a gaping hole in security was even permitted at the time. Hope they tighten this up somehow. YOUR approach though is a good start.
There is a secret bracelet that IDs MOST TSSs - their radio. Whenever I suspect the presence of a 'secret' TSS, I key my radio and listen for theirs to make noise. They also tend to look out of place - two middle-aged white guys in dress shirts and ties standing on the platform at Rockaway Ave on the 3 with the C/R board missing MUST be TSSs (or suffering from a death wish).
Heh. So what you're saying is that I *looked* the part. :)
Actually you look the part of Santa Claus...but that's for another thread...heh! ;)
Heh. Santa Selkirk brought treats for everyone. :)
Alex L....my weapons glisten, my uniform crisp and clean, my IDs golden and clear, my keys jangle and my radio burps with every break of tone coded squelch. I'm middle aged, wear a tie and a baseball cap with #2 and #5 pins along with the Car Equipment Department embroidered patch. Nobody has the chance to check out my skin color because they give me the respect I return to them...respect I have not seen in many, many years. So who am I....just plain old 'CI Peter is OnTheJuice.' Watch out for me...the supervisors office was flooded out with roof leaks and I ran off with a stack of G2 forms to write everyone up !!! Of course in the shop I'm the dirtiest guy on the floor because I stick my nose and hands into every inspection and when I come home pretty ladies steer away from me upon the sidewalk.
I love my work. CI Peter
>>> I'm the dirtiest guy on the floor because I stick my nose and hands into every inspection and when I come home pretty ladies steer away from me upon the sidewalk. <<<
Doesn't the TA provide you with a place to clean up and change clothes before leaving work?
Tom
Of course TA has extensive facilities for cleanups! Inspection shift is 7AM to 3PM...morning break from 0930 to 0945, lunch from 1200 to 1230 and punch out at 1450...credit for ten minutes to clean up. Most inspection work is concluded by 1200...you take your lunch...and go back to your car for final checks and repairs if not already completed. Some idle time and you used to be able to go up to the locker room and clean up before punch out...some jerks were caught by the ACMO nice and neat and clean on line waiting to puch out at 1450...ten minutes before the end of the shift. So now we have to pick up time cards in dirty work clothes...I change out my safety shoes and glasses to flee out without a shower because every minute lost may mean ten for Manhattan vehicular parking. I do check for 'butt grease' in a mirror before leaving...the stains imparted to car seating can never be completely removed. CI Peter
Not even a BMTguy can get a joyride? What is the world coming to? :(
I can't believe the TA has resorted to these tactics just to ensure that the crews are in compliance with the rules and regulations. Wasting the time and the talents of Motorman Intructors is a crime. The Authority should hire competent operating employees instead of having supervision baby-sit the imbaciles. There's a whole nest of analysts down at Jay Street tripping over each other; maybe they should have the job of "sneaky Pete". And BTW, pointing to a C/R indication board is probably the most retarded thing I have ever heard of.
Wouldn't you just love it though if everyone at Jay street had to stand up and point at the clock every time a train relayed somewhere? :)
[And BTW, pointing to a C/R indication board is probably the most retarded thing I have ever heard of.]
Could be fun --- depending on the finger you use...;)
Can't use that finger - you'll get written up.
Newest GOs in inspection: replace all the T/O cab storm window screws with tamperproof TORX fasteners because the crews are removing the R142 storm window stop hardware. Better yet: imbaciles cannot bend down to release portion locking pins so they kick 'the hell' out of the portion release levers until they become free and destroy the mechanism. Forget about the 'plantation mentality crap'.....infraction punishement should be a minimum of three months Redbird undercar inspection....the work will sort out the 'mensche' from the 'boyz.' Whear be de wimmem Car Inspectors...I need a date and don't mind the dirt! CI Peter
you know those are easily available from Snap-On, Mac, etc maybe soon Craftsman.
Original TORX branded tamperproof bits are only available through Vending Industry distributors like Happ Controls...everything else, including SnappOff, is garbage.
As for crew vandalism...yea union monitors...write me up...they could get their complaints about storm windows fixed IF they could speak, read and write ENGLISH in their reports so engineering can follow up and add a dozen more mods to trainsets I have trouble keeping up with.
'U breakum me fixum up real good chop chop.' In the hole, IN THE HOLE, SPEAK ENGLISH!
BS ... standard spline wrench, take a drill to the center in a jig, voila! Instant access to them coinboxes and cable descramblers. Wasn't exactly nuclear brain science for the criminal element. Now talk about torture, that special "Magnavox tool" for removing the screws that held tuner panels in place on Teevee sets, THAT was high security stuff. :)
Sheesh. I have a Stanley screwdriver that has a plethora of removable magnetic and specialty bits - including a full TORX set. Sold at retail hardware stores. Little pricey, but invalubale. Compaq used TORX screws in their PC's. Real fun, working on a Compaq tower, under a desk in the dark with only your little Mag-Lite for illumination. No TORX, no getting into box, or working on it.
Rail connection: The Budd Almond Joy cars in Philly had the damned TORX screws. Everything had them. That's why the railfans could never liberate anything off them.
builders plares in PS Superliners were T15 w/rejection pin. Mac had that tip befor Snap On. Now entire ses of bits w/ holes are available. Likewise the telco terminal boxes have hex w/pin screws. as do some booth parts.
Rejection Pin...posters do not understand Tamperproof TORX. used to bust em out servicing video games...T9,10,15 and jam allen key in place. Craftsman, Stanley and SnapOff are straight TORX used in automotive repairs. One thing that you can do with tamperproof is force a small screw driver into the space and force turn IF the fastener is not bonded by LockTite. CI Peter
Bought a set of 3/8" drive Craftsman Torx bits last year... they have the hole for the pin... was outfitting a toolbox for my younger daughter, her rented townhouse has regular Torx screws on the sliding glass door and they are always needing adjustment... just learned a couple of months ago what the hole was for when her boyfriend commented on it (he was fixing the door again and used her tools). My older set doesn't have the hole.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Its fun sometimes pointing at the board. Sometimes I look at the board and point at an Attractive young lady.
Dave, I see you and SubBus think alike! A true Transit Professional! LOL!!! :)
Excellent post, Unca Kev! I had no idea you almost made off with a consist of R-143's!! Talk about 'Taking the Train'...it took on a whole new meaning for you...great story...
Well, wasn't the first time I took a train, but this time they LET me. And the guy who was running it was someone you and I were talking to the previous day for the run back from Canarsie. He thought I was with the TA apparently. Didn't get his name and I forget what he looked like officially. But it sure MADE the trip worthwhile it did it did. Ah ah ah. :)
You lucky DOG!!! :)
Heh. TOLD you I had a great time when we came down. And THANKS for being a major part of it! :)
Would they close half of each station to make the passengers wait in the proper place?
I doubt 24 trains an hour are needed on the Canarsie Line in 2002
A while back I posted figures morning rush hour demand for all the Brooklyn crossings. (The context was the adequacy of 480 foot trains on the C for Cranberry St tunnel service.) I stated that most crowded service would surprise most people and challenged readers to do the calculation for themselves. None rose the the challenge.
It turns out that the most crowded East River crossing between Brooklyn and Manhattan is the 14th St tunnel with an average leave load level of 0.73 for the 7-10 AM period. The average leave load level for the A&C at High St is 0.70. By contrast the average leave load level for the F at York St is 0.51.
These figures are average for the entire 3 hour period. Most leave load figures are for a peak 15 minute period. One would expect such peak figures to be much higher.
I'm not sure what "0.73" represents. Is that 73% of the capacity of the trains operating in the peak direction during the (3-hour) peak period? If so, then:
Let's say that in the peak of the peak, the trains are at 100% of capacity. Currently, 15 trains operate in that peak hour. To get the peak hour down to the 73% level that the entire rush hour had at the time the numbers Mr. Bauman cited were crunched (assuming my guess was correct), then 20 trains would be needed in that hour (yeah, it gets us down to 75%, not 73% -- close enough in my book). 24 trains would get us down to 62.5% of capacity in the peak of the peak...not very efficient (though the reduced crowding level might, once they find out about it, induce others to ride and raise the number a bit).
David
I'm not sure what "0.73" represents. Is that 73% of the capacity of the trains operating in the peak direction during the (3-hour) peak period?
It is the number of in-bound passengers crossing the East River as measured in "Hub Bound Travel Report", March 2001, divided by the service level capacity provided by the TA during the same 3-hour period.
...24 trains would get us down to 62.5% of capacity in the peak of the peak...not very efficient
That would still be far more efficient than current operations in the Rutgers St Tunnel which has an average load level of only 0.51. This comparison indicates that the TA is not very good at monitoring demand and providing service to match. These figures show that either the trains going through the 14th St tunnel are overcrowded or that resources are being spent on the Rutgers St tunnel when they are not required or some combination of both.
I would estimate that the average in bound load level for all East River crossings between Brooklyn and Manhattan during the 7-10 am period to be around 0.55. I would also estimate that the standard deviation of the average load levels for the various Brooklyn services is around 18% of the average. Such variability would not usually be interpreted as an indication of good resource allocation.
>> ...far more efficient than current operations in the Rutgers St Tunnel which has an average load level of only 0.51. <<
Has F ridership plummeted in the intervening time since I commuted on it from Carroll St. to Manhattan every day (3/96-6/99)?
Presumably so... because if the numbers cited are meant to denote that the gigantic pitri dish, bodily fluid exchanging, sardine-impersonating, claustrophobia-causing F trains heading for Manhattan during morning rush are(were) only half full, then someone at the MTA has got a serious mathematic disorder.
Or are you saying that there is tunnel capacity for more trains in Rutgers St, regardless of the number of people riding on them?
I admit I am a bit confused. Your estimate of .55 load capacity on the East River crossings makes it sound like the subways are only running half-full trains. What am I missing?
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
I admit I am a bit confused. Your estimate of .55 load capacity on the East River crossings makes it sound like the subways are only running half-full trains. What am I missing?
This is for the average over the 3 hour period. It does not indicate what the peak load level is (usually calculated as the average over a 15 or 20 minute period).
If the L is only at 73%, I am certainly glad I never have to use the E at 98% or whatever!!!
It is VERY hard to get onto an L train in the morning at 3rd Ave, except by being sure to be where someone else has just gotten off.
"Weekdays from 8 AM to 9 AM leaving Bedford Avenue, there are 15 trains scheduled, a 4-minute headway."
"Down from 24 tph, a 2.5 minute headway, which was the last time they operated express service on the 14th St Line."
1. The MTA schedule says "every 4-6 minutes", which I interpreted as 12 tph. I'm surprised if it's actually 15.
2. The L is usually VERY crowded in the rush hour. I sometimes get on an L westbound at 3rd Ave in the morning rush hour. I have learned to make sure I stand in front right near the exit, even if that's not convenient to my destination, because that's the only place I can be sure of getting on the train (since people getting off the train at 3rd Ave are in those cars and nicely leave me some space).
3. Maybe they ran 24 tph in the old days, but they can't do it with current operating procedures. If a train is in the north track at 8th Ave, it has to cross over to the south track on its way out. Any train coming into 8th Ave generally has a red signal at 6th Ave until the exiting train has reached 6th Ave. Then, the train crawls into the 8th Ave sttaion to make sure the T/O doesn't accidentally hit the bumpers at the end.
They would have change their signaling and put in tail tracks to allow 24 tph in the current safety-conscious regime.
I always wonder why people get on at 1st or 3rd to go the few stops left when the M14 is right above. (And hardly anyone gets off there!
During the Willy B sutdown, there were several times when those last bunch of people squeezing in at those stations would be too much for the doors. The train would go out of service at 3rd Av., right before my connection at Union sq. and all the people forced out onto the platform (with little room before the edge)(Then some would go back upstairs to find another way. 3rd.v Av. is so close to the eaternmost exit of Union Sq.)
"I always wonder why people get on at 1st or 3rd to go the few stops left when the M14 is right above. (And hardly anyone gets off there!"
I can tell you 3 reasons why I do it.
1. The M14 is SLOW!!! It takes many minutes for it to disgorge its passengers at Union Square. Also, traffic at Union Square can be miserable (better now that 14th Street construction is done). I can walk from 3rd to 7th Ave in the same time as I can take a bus. The subway saves quite a few minutes whether I'm switching to the 6th, 7th, or 8th Ave lines (though of course it saves the most when I'm going to 8th).
2. I may need the bus transfer for the far end of my trip.
3. It's much quicker to get to the L platform at 3rd Ave than at Union Sq. At 3rd Ave, it's one simple staircase. If I'm standing at 3rd Ave and 14th, I can get to the L downstairs in under a minute. Getting to the L platform at Union Sq takes me 5 minutes.
Having skip stops is a service reduction for many passengers because a train could pass you by without stopping or bypassing one on the way home. If you live close to the the CBD, your commuting time actually increases.
If they didn't do it during the Willy B shutdown, (when it would have been really useful) then the idea must have been already dead.
They were considering it a few years back. I think there are even gray Y's on the rollsigns (mentioned here once). I think some community activists like Assemblywoman Catherine Nolan in Ridgewood at the timed was strongly against it, and successfully lobbied against it.
No, there was a gray K on the 110B sign for that. They Y was probably an earlier idea (the 32/38 are the only cars that have it, in white). 91 was one of the times it was proposed. Wyckoff )The main Ridgewood connection) would have definitely been one of the "All trains" stops, so I don't see why Nolan would try to stop that. (I wish she would get us the weekend midtown service on the M, as I have written to her office).
It would be nice if they would run a weeday midtown service from the M line. The K should be resurrected. It would probably work much better than the first time they did it.
Like the G going to Continental off hours only because of the V, weekday service would be unrealistic and only give them an excuse to scrap the idea for good.
A nearly 2 hour trip last night from Bedford Park to Seneca, missed the end of San gennaro (they were cleaning up) got on at Bowery. (and just barely caught the last OPTO R-143 M). I was thinking that Nassau should be shut down off hours. It is only an excuse to say there is no ridership on the line. (Who goes down there those times anyway?) All off hour trains over the Williamsburg bridge should run up 6th or 8th (and maybe have a shuttle from Essex to Chambers), then more people might ride it.
-sighs- aww man.will this guy ever stop this? Its beginning to annoy me.
He's actually prompted some interesting discussions. I've learned things about the L I didn't know.
I think they should revive the old (way before my time) expresses that made no stops from Myrtle to Lorimer, and restore the trains that turned around at the middle track between Halsey and Myrtle.
They could maek the diamond L and treat it like the diamond 7, middays, rush hours, and weekday evenings until 10pm
That's for expresses though. Skip-Stop is nothing like it.
I know, the L would be better off with express service than skip stop
Sure. All the MTA has to do is actually build an express track. The thing is, where? I mean, the underground section is an issue all by itself. At the El though, is there a provision for such a track like the El J/Z tracks?
They used to have it. You wait for a local to go by at Myrtle, let an express come in from the relay, hold it there until the next local is close then release the express the express catches up to its leader by 8th ave.
Of course they did not run this service in my lifetime and there may have been a host of resaons to get rid of it that make sense to non-railfans or Goo-Goos. Like it cost too much, people skipped complained the populations moved to other lines, the ridership was not there.
Several thoughts on this thread...
1. I could never understand why people think skip stop service solves any problems. I mean you can't pass a train ahead of you so how much time can it really save?
2. One person thought they should do away with the southern end of the L service to Canarsie. Have you ever seen the hoardes of people getting off at Rockaway Parkway or getting on at Rockaway Parkway. You know the number of people starting their trips at Rockaway Parkway are not reflected properly in the stats as so many get off the B42 bus and do not pass through turnstiles. The line certainly has plenty of ridership.
3. I think they are very slow at Rockaway Pkwy; especially around 10 PM. I mean if I have to wait 5 to 8 minutes for a train, there is no reason I am held up another 10 minutes at E 105 Street waiting for them to turn trains around or sending trains to the yard. The priority should be to the people on the live train not taking their sweet time and tieing up the 2 tracks at Rockaway Parkway while trains are held at E 105 St.
I agree with you. I mean, I'm sure the MTA is wasting money on such a dumb concept. The 9 and Z trains must be eliminated!
"The 9 and Z trains must be eliminated!"
The Z actually skips 10 stops and saves 5 or 6 minutes! For people out toward Jamaica, that's worth having fewer trains.
The 9 is agreed by virtually all who post here to be a bad idea.
Only 5 or 6 minutes? Well, that's a huge variable, depending on who has to go where.
At least we see eye-to-eye on the 9.
I think most passengers on the Z benefit from its existance. Also, it serves as an invitation to take people off the E. The 9 is just a waste of time and resources. I think having every other 1 train originate/terminate at 137th Street requires less rolling stock than the 1/9 skip stop service.
Why did the 1/9 trains stop midday service? I recall it used to in the early portion of its exsistnce
The 9 has quite a few people against it. I don't feel the Z is a problem though. Skip-stop actually works quite well on the jamaica line. Actually, I feel they should extend the timeframe they use it. I only runs for an hour or two at rush hours currently.
The 9 runs both ways while the Z runs in peak direction, seems like the Z should first at least run in both directions
When CBTC arrives the Canarsie line will be running a 2 min headway during RushHours.When this happens look for the trains to be 4 cars long Just in case there is a Problem the babysitter (T/O) can find it and solve it quickly.
Please name the NYCT document that outlines this.
David
ND Nation has risen again old buddy. We're 4-0, and wasn't that one hell of a finish. Wow!!!!!!! Now for Stanford.
are we talking about the Pac 10, GO BRUINS
Heck no, GO Huskies, 7-38 blowout, Heck yeah! Who lost yesterday? I thought so. 2 in a row and more to go.
Not after yesterday old buddy. You now have tasted the bitterness of defeat. However, if it is of any consolation to you I think the Bruins will be a lot better than many people predicted before the season got underway-----and if we don't get Carlile Holliday back in two weeks we are deep trouble.
Yeh, but we lost
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1) I recently noticed on the Rohr 1000/1100 cars, there is a brightly flashing red light by the blind ends when the brakes are applied. What does this mean ? These are not door guard lights.
2) I rode CAF car #5100 on the Green Line. Does this mean there are 100 CAF cars on the property ?
3) At Greenbelt Station, while waiting for the CAF cars, there was a four car train of Rohr cars that bypassed the station and went into the yard. Was this a equipment move, transfer or instruction train ?
4) It seems that all four varieties of Metrorail cars have different sounds. The 3000 series cars make a electrical buzzing sound when taking power. Does this mean AC traction is used ?
Bill "Newkirk"
1. This indicates if the brake regenerators are working. I once saw a car that did not have this working and the next day, overheard on the train radio that they needed to pull that whole train from service since that car wasn't working.
2. Not to my knowledge. When I rode the Green Line in June, most cars were in the high 5000s, although I did ride 5018.
3. Perhaps a transfer of some sort although in general, Rohrs do not operate on the Green Line. This seems to be a policy and clearly isn't a rule since I have been on them on the Green Line.
4. The only cars with AC motors are the 1000s and 5000s. I do not know if the GOH of the 2000s and 3000s includes conversion to AC motors. The 1000s got AC motors during their GOH.
I had long wanted to see this to get an idea of the procedures for bringing 75' ft cars over the Williamsburg Bridge for special purposes. Well, someone was selling it at the NY Div. ERA meeting Fri. I would have gotten it, but was kind of short on money, and it had very little of the detail I was expecting. (Those fantrip booklets are mostly information and track maps of the lines, with a copy of the G.O. notice stapled on.
The G.O. # was 475-76. It consisted of four trips; the first on the R-1/9, then the B types (I think), then the D Types, then the R-46. It seems the same crew made the itinerary on each set, then returned it to the yard and picked up the next.
The R-46 departed Kings Hwy on the Brighton, followed the M line to Myrtle, then contined on the old K route to Canarsie. Then it returned to Myrtle, ran to Metropolitan, and then through the BJ tracks to 59th or somewhere like that, and that was the end of the tour.
The notice said nothing about stopping traffic going the other way on the bridge or the M shuttle. All of that stuff would have been apart of the general order. There were no references to any other orders, in case those precautions would have been in separate G.O's.
So then how could this be? Are there really any clearance problems on the bridge or Myrtle, or do they ban the cars completely just as a precaution of them winding up at Crescent, which is the main obstruction? (They used to be allowed on the Nassau line, but now they've cut out that whole line, on both the Chrystie and Montague ends with signs posted, even though that's nowhere near where the problems are.)
Or was it that there was only a remote possibility of a sideswipe, so they used to take the chance, but now are being more safe? (Like the way they were more lenient on keying by and other practices, for instance, but have now cracked down in order to be more safe)
I think its a little bit of both. Ever since the Willy B rehab they have been really strict on what goes over the bridge,People can attest that even certain work trains havent gone over the bridge in a while.75 ft trains can operate safely to Essex street ,But coming off the Bridge The Marcy bend "could"(never Proven)cause a sideswipe between 2 75 ft trains .The only real problem is Crescent street ,and the fact most 75 ft trains are in 4 car sets.But my guess is a 6 car r68 could operate on the M line without any problems.
R68/R68A's are linked into 4 car sets since 1998. The only singles are found on the Franklin Ave. Shuttle (2916-2924). The only 6 car 75 footer that you can place there is the R46's which have more A-A units than the single R68's which only have 9 cars. May be in future orders, if 75 foot cars are made, you might see them on the M, but that would be highly unlikely too. R46's are for E, F, G, R, V sometimes finding their ways on the N, Q and W which was the most recent, with the Q post 9/11/01.
While on vacation late this week, I stayed at Timonium instead of staying at DC. To make things interesting, I got up early and caught the 7:07AM light rail train at Timonium, At Camden Yards, I caught the 8:15AM to Union Station (DC). Here are my MARC observations:
1) I rode a 7000 series (Mitsui ?) push pull train. I know these cars are very similar to the NICTD South Shore cars in Chicago. I did notice that the interior (ceiling, lights, A/C vents etc)looked very similar to the Bombardier push pulls. Was Bombardier consulted in the design of these cars ?
2) I went to the Copyright office to have my subway calendar copyrighted. After that, lunch and some railfanning, I went to union Station to take a Penn Line train to Baltimore Penn station. Something different. I rode MARC's bilevels for the first time. I liked their interior very much and made comparisons with the LIRR bi-levels. Do any bi-levels have any lavatories ? I was told there was one on the single level coach.
3) I saw what looked like a annuciator screen by the stairs. I guess this is for automated announcments, though all were done by the conductor.
CENTRAL LIGHT RAIL
4) I noticed two trainsets (#5001A/B & #5032A/B) painted in the new MTA Maryland paint schemes seen on their new buses.
5) South of Hamburg st. station (for Baltimore Ravens stadium) they are constructing the concrete pillars and trackways for the second track. If they are double tracking, does this mean an increase of service and additional rolling stock ?
6) I couldn't help it, but when you are standing by the doors waiting to exit, those doors with the narrow curved end windows look like rear doors of a Mack C-49 !!
7) A fare inspector boarded at North ave to check tickets. I guess that the theory is if one person is caught without a ticket and pays a hefty fine, that fine would compensate for others who ride fare free and not get caught. Am I right on this ?
8) I passed Camden Yards where people were going to an Oriole game. Does Central Light rail ever run six car trains in case of heavy ridership ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Did you make it to the B&O Museum? They have a showning "Reinventing the Wheel". The FRA had one of their research car on display. It was only for 21-22 Sept.
I visited Baltimore last May 5 and uploaded a number of photos, including shots from the B&O Museum, onto two Webshots pages: Around Baltimore and Around Baltimore 2.
They can't run more than 6 cars because the train would be longer than the blocks in downtown.
They are double tracking to increase service.
4) I noticed two trainsets (#5001A/B & #5032A/B) painted in the new MTA Maryland paint schemes seen on their new buses.
The jury is still out for the new Maryland Transit Administration scheme. Rumor is that our new Administrator may change it, as he is reportedly not in favor of minimal paint schemes. The LRV's in the new scheme are more "big white boxes" than the ones still in the blue stripe motif.
5) South of Hamburg st. station (for Baltimore Ravens stadium) they are constructing the concrete pillars and trackways for the second track. If they are double tracking, does this mean an increase of service and additional rolling stock ?
Service yes, additional equipment no. Plus, the double tracking project has a seven year timetable which defies all logic.
7) A fare inspector boarded at North ave to check tickets. I guess that the theory is if one person is caught without a ticket and pays a hefty fine, that fine would compensate for others who ride fare free and not get caught. Am I right on this ?
Actually, the standard practice (the "fare inspectors" are MTA Police officers with full Maryland police powers) is to have the offender simply leave the train at the next stop and purchase the ticket unless the offender gives them a hard time, when the offender does get the "free ticket" (free to get it, costs to get rid of) which does have a $250.00 fine. Compliance on the Light Rail generally is in the high 90's. The MTA makes it very easy to have the correct fare medium, as monthly/weekly passes as well as single and round trip tickets are sold, plus day passes (good for unlimited travel during the day purchased are sold on all buses, subway ticket machines and light rail ticket machines.
Which side of the platform at 36th Street will we be boarding tommorow?
Hint ... whereever the foam is :)
--Mark
On some of the IRT Lexington Av. stations, (a good example is 42nd. St - Grand Central), I see tile blocks on the platform warning "STEP ASIDE" to mark where the doors open. On some instances, the motorman would not be in synchronization with those tiles and the doors would end up somewhere else.
Does the motorman have a marker or another object in which the train stops for those tile blocks to match up with the doors?
Why only does the Lex. Av. line have these?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
The signs with the 3 Ss vertically are the markers. They look like this:
S
S
S
Where are they exactly and those are where the motorman stops?
Provided the T/O hits the board, all the STEP ASIDE boxes will be aligned with the doors. If a stop marker has S instead of a number, all trains are to stop there. This is where the T/O is susposed to stop. You will notice there are no other stop markers in these stations. The large sign is the indication that the station has the STEP ASIDE boxes and the T/O can try to make as perfect a stop as possible.
All stations have markers for where to stop. They sometimes don't stop very precisely, so they don't line up with the Step Aside boxes. I think the Step Aside boxes are a little wider than the doors, so there's some margin for error.
The Step Aside boxes are in stations that, in theory, would benefit from people letting people off the train before barging in to board. (i.e., busy/crowded stations with lots of passenger turnover) In practice, people tend to cluster around the Step Aside boxes so they know where they doors will be, then barge their way in as soon as they open, despite automated and/or human announcements on the platform admonishing them to "let the people off the train first".
Also, I think only the IRT can have accurate Step Aside boxes because of consistent door placement in the various types of cars; the B division would require multiple markings for different types of cars, which would probably overwhelm the average subway rider.
The reason you only see the step aside boxes on the IRT is that these lines have the most crowding problems,
Peace,
ANDEE
And all the doors on all the equipment line up at the same place.
As the poster said kinda hard for Div B to have step aside painted on the floor when 60ft cars and 75ft cars have the doors at different places on the platform. You'll have people stepping off between cars >G<
which would probably overwhelm the average subway rider.
That is true. It takes a lot less than that to overwhelm the avererage subway rider!
Well, the Lex Lines have 'em since they are the most crowded in the city. Personally, it would be cooler if they were installed on the rest of the IRT as well. Well needed.
As for possible installation on the BMT/IND, it can be done when the rolling stock is unified; so wait for all of it to be R143/R160. Since the R32 will last long, probably into those times, I'm sure no problems will not be evident since those 3 models are the same size. Isn't it 67'?
No, the R32 as well as the R143 and R160 are 60' long. However the R32 has staggered side doors, while the R143, and probably the R160, has parallel side doors.
But they only have parallel side doors in the trailer cars.
Peace,
ANDEE
Haven't you ever seen the signs at the end of stations with numbers hanging down? The "10" means "10 car trains trop here", which would line the train up with those boxes and would put the c/r on the board which he can point to and know the train is fully in the station.
trop=stop. Sorry, time to go to work for an RDO.
where is this ??
36th Street/Fourth Avenue station of the N/R/W line
is this in nyc or brooklyn ?
It's in Brooklyn, which is in NYC.
David
i am going to that museum train special guess i get off at atlantic
go south on the n to "6th Street/Fourth Avenue station of the N/R/W line"
no do i have that correct ??
thankz
i am going to that museum train special guess i get off at atlantic
go south on the n to "6th Street/Fourth Avenue station of the N/R/W line"
now do i have that correct ??
thankz
36th Street, not 6th Street.
W train, not N train.
Otherwise, correct.
David
Come to think of it, the N, the R, and the W should all be running through Pacific Street (Atlantic Avenue) and 36th Street by the time people are gathering for the fantrip.
David
Aside from GO's and emergency reroutes, the N, R, and W always run between Pacific and 36th. The only question is which come from Manhattan and which originate at Pacific, but that's of little import to those coming from Pacific itself or transferring from the IRT.
Sorry for the long post. You can skip down to the questions if you want, but the statements I don't have a question for I think it still is worth reading.
On 9/16/02, my dad and I went to railfan the 57-mile Boonton Line (distance from Hoboken so it's not entirely Boonton) and picked up many interesting sights:
1. On the leg to/from Newark, to/from Hoboken on the PATH between Harrison and JSQ, I saw a myriad of CSX locomotives bearing "lightning bolts" either on both sides of the loco. # or on the bottom.
2. We boarded Comet I #1747 and passing through the yard at Dover, I saw a F40PH2-CAT #4301 attached to a Comet II refurbished #5359. #5358 and about six other Comet II refurbishes were found there.
3. Explored the merge of the new Montclair Connection line. It was cool.
4. Interesting leg of the trip from Dover to Hackettstown. I was surprised in how long it took from Dover to Lake Hopatcong.
5. Noticed the long, 'endless' track past Hackettstown.
6. On the way back, I enjoyed the nice express ride via the Morristown Line with all stops to Summit, then Newark- Broad St., then Hoboken.
7. Going past Orange station, I saw a ALP-44 hauling (pulling) three Comet V cars through revenue service around 5:32p.
8. Going past MMC, was a big surprise. We did not have the regular "employee stop" there so I watched as the blazing new Comet V's shimmered past the window. I spotted about 50 of them on both sides of the plant, and about 12 or more ALP46's in the midst. Looking at the site flooded with Comet V railcars was a first-time see.
9. On our final destination back home from Newark, the 7:26p NJCL arrives 2-3 minutes late. (One engineer told me that this was the departure time for when trains arrived early) I mistakenly took NJT's on-time service for granted and boarded the Long Branch express which was a consist of Arrow III's. Thank God that the conductor or T/C made a final announcement of
"Long Branch Express (x2)... Woodbridge will be the next stop."
Then we find out we're on the wrong train and flew out while the door tried to close on us. What an experience.
10. ALP44 #4420 (I think) was hauling the 7:29p NEC train with all Comet III's in the front, and a row of Comet IV's in the back.
11. Enjoyed the 100mph experience squished with passengers in the vestibule.
*** 12. At Metropark, I spotted an ALP44 pulling a set of Comet IV's with TWO COMET II REFURBISHES in the middle! Boy, how I wanted to experience that.
13. There seems to be another NJT plant close to Hoboken Terminal.
Questions (related to statements):
1. What is the significance of the lightning bolts either on both sides of the loco. # or on the bottom? These were on both 3- and 4-digit numbers, but not all of them bore the mark.
2. Does anyone know the # of Comet II refurbishes or occurences while riding NJT?
3. Where do the electric lines from the new Montclair Connection end?
5. Is the track past Hackettstown the Lackawanna Cutoff? Was the Lackawanna Railroad used to operating this line?
7. Any more instances of the Comet V in revenue service?
8. When are the deliveries of the ALP46's and Comet V's going to end?
9. Is it true that the times listed for Newark from NYP are ARRIVAL times or DEPARTURE times?
12. Has anyone seen a Comet II Refurbished on the NEC before?
13. What is the plant close to Hoboken Terminal? (Not the MMC)
Answers will be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I can answer a couple of your questions.
Rebuilt Comet II's are showing up everywhere, in the middle of consists with Comet III's and IV's, in all different combinations. There are no rebuilt Comet II CAB cars, however. I have seen them with nothing but Comet IV cab cars, but I believe somebody told me they saw them with a Comet III cab car on 1 occaision. I could be wrong on that one. And yes, they run on the Corridor, the Coast Line, Raritan Valley, and the Morris and Essex Lines.
The times on the schedule for trains at the first (departing) station stop and at all intermediate station stops are DEPARTURE times. Which means, technically, that if the schedule says a train leaves Newark at 7:26, and it ARRIVES at Newark at 7:26, the train is late. Takiing into consideration the "dwell time", that train probably won't leave Newark until 7:29-7:30. The only ARRIVAL time is the time listed at the FINAL station stop.
There are also several Comet II sets running on the Main/Bergen lines, with one going all the way to/from Port Jervis.
Obviously I mean comet II GOH, with a comet IV on the end.
The Lightning Bolt under the number on a CSX locomotive signifies that the locomotive is an AC powered unit, so all the AC4400Ws and SD80MACs have this underlining the unit number.
Sorry, i do not know anything about number 2 and, like you would like to know about number 3.
Not really sure what happened to Number 4, perhaps it's gone the way of Septa's R4.
Yes, the track before, through, and past Hackettstown is infact the Lackawana cutoff. According to my SPV map, the track is now NS/NJT before Hackettstown, and NS, ex-DLW, after. I am assuming that it must be the Lackawanna cutoff, since it is the only DLW track to run from Hoboken through Hackettstown and out past Phillipsburg, Easton, and Allentown.
Oh ok, now I seen how you worked this out, and why 4 and 6 are MIA, but my crack about the R4 still stands.
Seven, eight, and nine are three more that I will leave to better informed sources, although I thought that all ALP-46s were to be on property by the begining of 2003.
At least twelve I know a bit about, since I have ridden three rebuilt Comet II trains on the NEC in the past two or so months. About two weeks ago, I was on a Northbound NEC train a little after 11:00 or so in the morning on a Comet II, when my train passed another Comet II train leaving Trenton Station. On that train, as we left trenton it began to tell us Hamilton was the next stop, which it is, however, after Hamilton, it told us Trenton was the next and final stop, causing a bit of consternation for the passengers, and visions of R142s for me. After the conductor cutting in for announcements for Princeton Junction and New Brunswick, the system appeared to be reset and worked perfectly into Newark Penn. BTW: I am assuming that Comet II rebuilds can be recognized by the lack of center doors and the covers on the low platform traps, and even more easily from the inside by their pink colored walls, new seats, and automated announcements. If that is the case, then I have seen a good many Comet II rebuilds on the NEC in the past four or five months.
I looked on the map, but could find no interlocking plant closer to Hoboken than the one at the mouth of the tunnel that splits the M&E, Bergen, and Boonton lines. I think it lists it as 'West End,' and it appears rather large, could you have seen another part of West end?
Hope I was of some assistance.
The Lightning Bolt under the number on a CSX locomotive signifies that the locomotive is an AC powered unit, so all the AC4400Ws and SD80MACs have this underlining the unit number.
So it doesn't matter of the location of the lightning bolts (under the number and both sides of the number)?
and, like you would like to know about number 3.
They end at Montclair Heights.
Not really sure what happened to Number 4, perhaps it's gone the way of Septa's R4. Oh ok, now I seen how you worked this out, and why 4 and 6 are MIA, but my crack about the R4 still stands.
I did that on purpose. I noted that the questions were related to the statements I have posted. I apologize for any misconception as I should have noted the question #'s relate to the statement #'s.
Yes, the track before, through, and past Hackettstown is infact the Lackawana cutoff. According to my SPV map, the track is now NS/NJT before Hackettstown, and NS, ex-DLW, after. I am assuming that it must be the Lackawanna cutoff, since it is the only DLW track to run from Hoboken through Hackettstown and out past Phillipsburg, Easton, and Allentown.
One person told me from Railroad.net that that track is not the cutoff. The cutoff is from Lake Hopatcong station to the Delaware River, which is on the same track through Hackettstown and beyond, but that turns northward to some other area. The original track joins with the RVL at Phillipsburg and the next former station stop is at Phillipsburg. I heard that some other rail line is in use of that portion and the Cutoff has been purchased by the state of NJ. Service may be restored within the next 10 years. (from about several years ago according to Bob Scheurle's NJ TRANSIT Schedules Page)
I looked on the map, but could find no interlocking plant closer to Hoboken than the one at the mouth of the tunnel that splits the M&E, Bergen, and Boonton lines. I think it lists it as 'West End,' and it appears rather large, could you have seen another part of West end?
I was referring to the plant that stands almost adjacent to Hoboken Terminal. It has a periwinkle, sky blue tint and towards the top it has "NJ TRANSIT" with its logo. I haven't noticed that before until then.
Thank you, your post was of some assistance. It would be more appreciated if you could clear up some of the doubts in this response.
The Electrification ends at GREAT NOTCH.
All main tracks between Roseville Avenue and AC MOTOR STOP sign just west ofGreat Notch Station, including Great Notch Yard, is equipped with catenary for 25 KV AC electrical operations under the supervision of the Power Supervisior, Hoboken, NJ.
I hope this puts an end to the squabble of where the electrification of the Montclair Line ends.
Trains end at montclair heights though because it is difficult for trans to access great notch yard from Great Notch station.
As electrification is extended this issue will go away.
It's more than difficult, it would be a pain in the a**. The train would have to reverse and cross-over just west of the Montclair Heights Station, then go forward to get into the yard. If they put a crossover east of Great Notch Station it would be no problem. The trains display Great Notch though.
1. What is the significance of the lightning bolts either on both sides of the loco. # or on the bottom? These were on both 3- and 4-digit numbers, but not all of them bore the mark.
Those are AC traction units.
3. Where do the electric lines from the new Montclair Connection end?
Great Notch
5. Is the track past Hackettstown the Lackawanna Cutoff? Was the Lackawanna Railroad used to operating this line?
No, that is the Old Main Line. At Washington NJ 5 miles down the line, the Old Main Line diverges from the Easton Branch (now Washington Secondary). The Cuttoff diverges at Port Norris, right before the big NJT shop complex on the line.
9. Is it true that the times listed for Newark from NYP are ARRIVAL times or DEPARTURE times?
Departure, if a single listing is given for a non-terminal, that time must be the departure by Federal regulations.
13. What is the plant close to Hoboken Terminal? (Not the MMC)
Do you mean Interlocking Plant or what? Right before the tunnels is Grove St. Interlocking.
1. What is the significance of the lightning bolts either on both sides of the loco. # or on the bottom? These were on both 3- and 4-digit numbers, but not all of them bore the mark.
Those are AC traction units.
What is the significance of AC Traction Units?
3. Where do the electric lines from the new Montclair Connection end?
Great Notch
Hmm. Someone else told me on Railroad.net that the electrification ends at Montclair Heights. Can you clarify for me?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
For #13, the plant may be the old Lackawanna MU shed if it's still standing. You can find out tomorrow at the Hoboken Festival. I'll be there. Hope to see you there.
"The AFC system became operational system-wide in 1997. NYC Transit is installing 1,580 new MetroCard vending machines and 1,000 MetroCard refill machines, both inside and outside the system, to make it more convenient for customers to buy or add value to their MetroCards."
from the TA capital plan
what are these 1000 refill machines???
I guessing they mean the ones that only accept credit/debit cards.
i doubt it... maybe they didnt come out yet...
You would be wrong. Those little machines are the MRMs, the TA decided to let them sell new cards.
they are officially known as MEMs-- MetroCard Express Machines. They do not sell single ride cards and dont take cash.
they are officially known as MEMs-- MetroCard Express Machines. They do not sell single ride cards and dont take cash.
I would imagine that because they do not take cash, they do not have to be armored to the same extent as regular MVM's and therefore can be smaller.
I'd guess they're smaller simply because they don't hold anything. Regular MVMs have to hold cash (both the cash taken in, and enough to provide change to people) and metrocards; MEMs don't have to hold either.
MEMs have to hold Metrocards.
I guess they mean the ones that only accept credit/debit cards.
>>>>what are these 1000 refill machines??? <<<
Like 4thAvenueLocal said, they are the baby machines that only accept plastic. It is incorrect to call them refill machines as you can buy a new card there as well. Thier correct name is Metrocard Express Machines or MEMs.
Peace,
ANDEE
The February 2002 edition of The Rough Guide to New York City (which I have just bought) says: "Unfortunately, the daily FunPass ...... is not available from token booths, but can be found at most major hotels and grocery stores..." This statement is the strict truth but not the whole truth, and suggests to tourists that Fun Passes are hard to buy. It might have more helpfully pointed out that all types of Metrocards, including Fun Passes, are available from MVMs on stations!
Typical of guidebooks. They are updated very slowly and casually.
The statement WAS the whole truth when FunPasses were originally brought out and MVMs were rare or non-existent.
Why don't they sell the fun passes at token booths? I understand the original reasoning was they wanted the fun passes to be used only by tourists figuring that NYers were smart enough to know; especially back in the era of 2 fare zones that it is far better to pay $1 a rid than $1.50 a ride....but now that the MVM sell the passes there is absolutely no reason not to see the all day cards at token booths.
Well they don't sell the "Single Ride Ticket" there either. Maybe it's a productivity issue ... more productive for a person to sell multiple rides.
Did ypu make the /author/publisher aware of the error so it could be corrected in later printings?
I haven't yet but I intend to.
Fytton.
I got to attend the K of P Show today and met a few SubTalkers who were in attendance. I was able to meet Steve Olsen, Mark Feinman, Chris Shaffer & Jan Laurenzen. I enjoyed meeting and talking with each of you. I especially want to thank Steve for the explicit instructions that helped this "country bumpkin" find the Holiday Inn.
I also got to meet and talk with the well published transit author James Greller. I was surprised to find out how many people from the old days that we both knew.
I did not know what to expect from the show itself since it was my first time, and I guess I was a little disappointed. Based on stories here from last years show, I thought I might find some "hardware" offered for sale. I completely struck out in my hunt for old BMT or IRT signboards. The only hardware I saw was two wellworn Redbird numberboards, and what looked like a CTA rollsign.
I had hoped to get a new or recent MTA subway map, but could not find one anywhere at the show.
The displays and the models on them were fantastic. There was also a tremendous selection of books, pictures and videos available. It was a great show to browse.
I'm glad I was able to attend, especially since it may be the last show. Steve, Mark, Chris & Jan, it was great to meet you, and finally put some faces with names after these four long years.
Great to meet you, too, Karl.
I had hoped to get a new or recent MTA subway map, but could not find one anywhere at the show.
I didn't know you were looking for one. I wish you asked me ... I had some there! Send me your address and I'll mail you one.
--Mark
Mark, I have the catalog that you gave me, and as soon as I can decide on which tape, I will send in the order.
If you could send a map along with the tape I would sure appreciate it.
You bet, Karl, I'll put the September 2002 map in for ya.
Need bus maps, too?
--Mark
I'll be happy if I can just get a new subway map!
I'll be happy if I can just get a new subway map!
I, at one time was going to try to get each new issue, but they seem to be putting out new maps every couple of months.
Karl, wish I could have joined you all, but I was due in Layhill (Silver Spring P.O.), MD at 1100h so had to pass this time. If we don't cross paths before then, hopefully we'll meet at the EPTC National Trolley Meet in Pennsauken next spring.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, I'm sorry that we did not get a chance to meet, but I'm sure that there will be other shows.
Karl, for true NYCT hardware, you might want to try the 'Try Transit' festival in Hoboken on the Sunday, September, 29th...if you can get to it. SubwayAl will have a booth there. He's usually well-stocked with signboards, belt-buckles and the like...
So, when are you gonna head up to Branford? 1227 awaits you...
Doug, I have dealt with Al by mail several times over the years, and unfortunately he does not have the three signs that I have been looking for.
I guess that they must be scarce ones!
Do you know who the vendor was with the IRT numberboards and which numbers they were?
Would love to find an R33/36 WF board to remind me of my youth when the WF's first appeared
IIRC the numbers were 7113 & 7192, but please don't hold me to that. They were not bent, but looked rough on the surface.
My wife seems to remember the vendor saying that he either posted or lurked on Joe Frank's message board.
She thinks he said his handle was "Motorman".
We met a lot of people on Saturday, and could be wrong on any part of this information.
Passing HFS, there is a train of 4 C3s. Car 4084, the head car facing east has tape and plastic covering one of the doors. Why has that set been there for so long. At least 6 months. Why isnt it in service? Waiting for spare parts?
Just wondering if anyone ran into the note SubTalk videographer and infamous Califorian railfan, Salaamallah?
Isn't he here in NYC taking videos of the Flushing Line? I'm sure he'll be at the railfan window with a rag to wipe off the drool so he can get unobstructed footage :).
Well, ran into Salaam Allah on the March of Dimes Special D-Type/Steeplecab ride. He was there with his famous tripod...AND more importantly he ran into his eastcoast rival Mark Feinman! It was funny how both of them were not aware that the other was on the trip till halfway through the excursion! I should have taken a shot of both of them...could've been one for the SubTalk archives. LOL!
That WOULD have been good. I've seen pictures of him that he's sent. Definitely not Middle Eastern looking. So who won the position closest to the cab door, and how did they work it? Inquiring mimes knead to no. :)
Well, Unca Kev, since ya axed, might as well tell ya that Salaam won the Railfan Window Challenge...only cuz I believe Mark did not have a video with him just a digicam...Salaam on the other hand was equipped in full regalia...including reflective safety vest, ID tag and tripod with glare guard.
I hope the inquiring WARPED minds have been appeased...;)
Heh. That's my Salaam ... we scared the crap outta him we did we did ... ah ah ah ... Didja get a chance to talk to him? He's a real good guy and a genuine hoot. Does his little thing here just to get people's goat he does he does ... ah ah ah ...
But I had faith, he's real hard core. Betcha his eyeball didn't come out of the rangefinder once the whole trip. :)
Between me, Mark W. and some of his friends, the railfan window was hogged for most of the trip to the detriment of the videophiles...
I did relinquish my position by the window so that others could get a chance to view the road action.
On the other hand, Mark W. was 'stationed' at the front of the D-Types so as to prevent the guests from going onto the Steeplecab. It was off-limits to all except NYCT employees (or those able to bribed their way onto the cab). :)
Heh. Well ... now you know why I don't do organized foamer trips. I just can't settle for the middle window. As you remember from our trip down at Christmas, I tend to prefer my foaming IN the motorman's seat, the view over there is MUCH better and there's less froth on the glass. Besides, as you might remember I didn't have a chance for the foamer glass with Bingbong hogging it. Homeballs are brighter there too. :)
Gonna come up to Branford and watch me do it again? I figure the second time around, you won't be as likely to leave a skid mark in your drawers and if you're a REAL good boy, I'll let you sit on my lap as I wrap it. Heh.
Dougie, what have you been SMOKIN?? Me w/o my video camera on a fantrip? 30 lashes with a van dorn coupler for you!!
Salaam and I were comparing notes on our camcorders (we both use Sony), he shoots in LP but I always shoot in SP, his use of the "Glare Guard" (TM), etc .... and I travel light with a retractable monopod.
There was no railfan window challenge because all you saw directly in front of you was the steeplecab! After a few minutes, not much to see!
What I was doing was sticking my camera out a side window from both ends of the train getting it rounding curves and thundering down straightaways! The sun always seemed to be in the "right place" for whatever I was tryng to shoot, too. Some realy great scenes around ENYD, too!
--Mark
It was funny how both of them were not aware that the other was on the trip till halfway through the excursion! I should have taken a shot of both of them...could've been one for the SubTalk archives. LOL!
No, no ... not true :) I knew he'd be on the train, and realized who he was when I was him carrying the infamous tripod and "glare remover" ((C) 2002 Salaam Allah Inc). I introduced myself to him early on in the trip when he took a picture of you and Mark W posing at the "9th Ave" sign (I was sitting up on the footbridge connecting to 38th St Yard). He didn't realize who I was for about 30 minutes, until, while heading to Stillwell, you mentioned it again and the light bulb went off! It really was very funny!
Also, because the steeplecab was blocking the traditional railfan window, there was no "competition", but imagine if that view was available? Then you'd see the sparks fly :) :)
And in the spirit of fair play, I will NOT be occupying the railfan window while Salaam is in town! OK, it's because I'm at work, but that has no bearing on it :)
BTW, where'd you get that tee-shirt you were wearing on the trip? I happened to see Curt Seeliger wearing it at the KofP show Saturday, too .... nice!
--Mark
if only south ferry was there .....
trevor logan was there too ??............!
Mark I got the T-Shirt from the same guy who also has that graffitified set of MTH R-21 cars for sale at train shows.
Even Trevor noticed the shirt on the trip and inquired about it's origins.
I'll give you the details in a private email.
I also have another shirt by the same artist that is a Transit tribute to heroes of 911...very nice done in a same 'animation' style artwork. All shirts are available through the website.
What does the dude look like?
www.forgotten-ny.com
This guy sounds cool.
He should check out PATCO and the Market-Frankfort Line here in Philly sometime... The railfan window on either of those trains would make him cream his pants.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
I am going back to the flushing line again to get even !!!
we will see what happens then !!
enjoyed the trip wish there was more railfan window views from the
front D triplex ( oh well )
hearing those prte world war 2 engines agian was worth it !!
my target is the #4 ( redbirds of cource )
i hope i will not be turned away !! wish me well folks !!
thankz
Well, tonight I went to Albany-Rennsalaer station to photograph it on it's final day. I had missed the bus from downtown to the station, so I walked across the Hudson to get to it (not really that far) I lucked out in that the LakeShore LTD was running late, so I got to watch it get assembled as I crossed over the tracks.
As soon as the LSL departed at about 8:20, having the honor of being the last departure from the station, the arrival/departure screens went blank with "no signal". Already things were being moved out of the station, and I had the honor of purchasing the last... anything there (lottery tickets).
Some employees wondered if the departure board TVs could take regular channels. They could, so a few made plans to give them new homes.
Trash cans, desks, chairs, and various Amtrak posters and pictures were being moved to the new station.
Judging by the look of things, the old building will most likely be demolished. I think the new track they're adding is supposed to go very, very close to where it is now. Plus, on the model there is parking lot where the building is now.
There was a fireworks display from 9PM-9:15. I'm 99% sure it was for something else, but I'd like to associate it with the closing of the station. Unfortunately my bus back arrived at 9:15, so I was putting the change in during the big finale. I later noticed some little kids and families wandering about the new station and overpass, apparently they were let in to get a better view of the fireworks while staying out of the rain.
Hopefully there will be a little hooplah for the official opening of the new station tomorrow.
The fireworks was the Rensselaer substation. Apparently one of the Amtrak employees was checking out his new TV set, plugging it into one of the outlets on the street lights. For anyone who ever saw "Green Acres" or lives in "Tech Valley," you know that you should never plug a "2" into an outlet when there's already a "6" and a "4" plugged in there. Just kidding.
The station will indeed open tomorrow, but after all the bad publicity for Senator Joey, there will be *NO* festivities. It'll open with a whimper and no hoopla at all. At ALL. Paturkey's planning a campaign stop somewhere later this week (our governor does NOT reside in Albany, first governor in history that didn't live here) so it's likely there'll be some ceremony later in the week if they can sober up Senator Bruno to "christen" his monument. (Public Urination IS OK in Rensselaer)
But no point in showing up for a professionally managed electoral "photo op" ... the politicos will be hiding ... no joke.
This raises a question I asked earlier in the month (380412). Is Amtrak really renaming the station ? What is the new station code ? There isn't any indication of there being a name change on the amtrak website. Has anyone seen any timetables, tickets, etc with the new "Rensselaer only" station name ?
Josh
According to the AP, there is an official opening ceremony scheduled at 1100am on Sunday. (no other details about it yet)
Great. I'm late! And the station signs only say Rennselaer, that's the only (but major) renaming indication.
Good old AP ... as usual, WRONG ...
The station opened this morning with the first train out (don't have the time) ... CDTA is planning on some low key "ribbon" festivities *TOMORROW* (Monday at 11AM) but the train station is already open and running, silently without a whimper as reported yesterday.
Story in Times Union (no subscription required) here:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=57910&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=9/22/2002
The station is now "Rensselaer" (Albany has been DROPPED at Bruno's request) and when Amtrak prints its next schedules, it is expected that the station name will match with (Albany) unofficially added in parentheses as is done in Amtrak's schedules for other major cities that are nearby the official Amtrak stops. This last part is hearsay, got it from a friend at Amtrak who asked his wigs what the deal was.
"it is expected that the station name will match with (Albany) unofficially added in parentheses as is done in Amtrak's schedules for other major cities that are nearby the official Amtrak stops."
If you ask Amtrak's web site for a list of stations, they say Buffalo-Depew (which I believe is in Depew), Burlington-Essex-Jct (which I believe is in Essex Jct, VT) and Champaign-Urbana (which is in Champaign, IL).
It looks like they always list the bigger city first, so they should continue to say Albany-Rensselaer (unless of course they have caved in to his highness the Senate majority leader).
Ya never know ... but the station itself has removed "Albany" from the name on the new one (no mention AT ALL) and Bruno managed to get a bankrupt Amtrak to sign on to a contract they couldn't afford pulling LOTS of pressure out of Washington to bear on it all. Bruno is some powerful stuff. Ask any business that was forced to locate in Troy NY from somewhere else in the region "or else" ... we resisted, which is one of the reasons why our business isn't terribly ABLE to do business since we insisted on staying in Albany county. So no DSL for an internet company. Gunn caved. Strong stuff.
After viewing the WMATA quiz, I thought I would ask a few questions about the SEPTA subways. So here we go.........
1) The 30th and 34th st stations on the MFSE replaced what stations on the original Market St El?
2) TRUE or FALSE - Until the 1930's the Market ST Subway went AROUND City Hall.
3) TRUE or FALSE - The Henry Ave Bridge over the Wissahickon Valley, has subway tunnels built into the bridge.
4) Why did the DRPA decide not to hire PTC as the operator of the Lindenwold Line, as they did for the Bridge Line?
5) TRUE or FALSE - There is a completed subway station under Roosevelt Blvd and Adams AVe.
6) What was the original name of the Cecil B. Moore Station on the Broad St line?
7) The Market-Frankford Line originally had a branch. Where did it go to?
8) The City Of Philadelphia wanted to build two more El lines in the city. Over which streets were they supposed to be built on?
9) Parts of the Rt. 36 Trolley was actually part of this long interurban route, what was the route and where was its terminals?
10) When the Broad St Subway was built, the City had this "crazy" idea about linking the route to what other rail system in Philly?
First, I'd like to invite you into the 20 question SEPTA quiz that I started a few days ago. Second, I guess a little healthy quiz competition is good. Realize that this means I will do another one. Third, I commend you on the questions. Very tough indeed. I'll try my best here.
1: 32nd Street and 40th Street (yes, 40th Street)
2: False, considering the presence of the Subway-Surface tunnel since 1906.
3: Not sure if that's what they are, so I'll say true anyway. I know East Falls had been considered for subway/elevated service, but nothing came of it (unless the R6 counts... which it doesn't)
4: Something about not wanting to continue operating it under the existing Bridge Line operations agreement. They decided to do it themselves instead
5: False, but there is a cleared space there for one. However, no tracks, no completion. Not sure if anything was ever constructed, but I know the space is cleared for one.
6: Columbia/Temple University (which it remained for years after the change of the street name).
7: Is this a trick question? I know the Market Street Elevated had the turn-around run to South Street Terminal, but when the Market Street el and Fraknford El were unified, that terminal was demolished. The Market-Frankford never had any branches.
8: That's the toughest one yet. I've heard o them once wanting an elevated over (or subway under) Germantown Avenue. For the other, I could only guess they'd eventually have wanted to raise the subway under Roosevelt Blvd to an elevated, otherwise, I'm stumped.
9: I don't know the name, but the line ran from Front Street Terminal (Front & Chestnut) out to the city of Chester.
10: The Reading Railroad, as evidenced by the connecting track at Fern Rock. Under current operations, it'd be tied to SEPTA's "northboud" Regional Rail Lines (R2 to Warminster, etc.)
2: False, considering the presence of the Subway-Surface tunnel since 1906
Buzz!!!!!Wrong!!!!
When the Market St. Subway was built in 1906, it did avoid the City Hall foundations, curving around parallel to the streetcar loop trackage. Sometime between 1906 and and 1955 the el tracks were run straight through under City Hall and the old tracks were removed, although the trackways remained.
When SEPTA rebuilt the 15th Street westbound station in the late 70's part of the exit track from the Juniper St. Station was partially re-aligned using part of the old el trackway in the process. The rebuilding lengthened the platform, so the curve had to be re-aligned.
Hmmm.... nothing I've read on the MFL history mentions this... must not have been something they ever considered important.
There is evidence of another trackbed alongside the Subway-Surface track between 15th Street eastbound and Juniper/13th Street station. Perhaps the old bed was the Subway-Surface track, and the alignment where the track now sits was the el track. No idea of any evidence of the westbound track. I can take a guess when they did straighten the tracks. 1927 or 1928, whenever it was they were constructing the City Hall station on the BSL. I know the idea came up in 1920, the line opened in 1928, but no idea when construction started, or which stations were done first.
BTW, have you seen my quiz? It's 20 questions of SEPTA trivia. Have a blast! If it's in you...
1) 32nd and 36th sts
2) TRUE - The Westbound track went around the North Side of City Hall, the Eastbound track on the South Side. In 1939, a new tunnel was dug underneath City Hall connecting the 13th and 15th st directly.
In the late 60's portions of the Subway Surface tunnels were re-aligned under City Hall.
3) TRUE - The City was anticipating building a line to Roxborough, so the tunnels were built into the bridge. But the Depression hit, and the Roxborough branch (was to be tied into the Ridge Ave-8th st-Locust st Line) was history.
4) Because DRPA felt they could run the line better than PTC, and they wanted to avoid PTC's frequent labor problems.
5) TRUE - The City had the station built under the site of the old SEARS store. It is a station and a short tunnel at each end of the station. It possibly could be included in any building of the Roosevelt Blvd extention. (that probably won't happen on our lifetime, considering how long it takes the City Gov't to get anything done.)
6) Columbia Ave.
7) The branch went to Delaware and South. It served the Ferries crossing over to NJ. There were two stations, Chestnut St ( PRR Ferries) and South St (Reading Ferries.) It was closed in 1939.
8) Originally the Broad St Line was envisioned as a Subway-Elevated, with El service over a portion of North Broad St. The plans changed before final design to be a Subway for its total length. The other El was to be built over Woodland Ave. It was originally to be part of a Woodland, Locust, 8th, and Ridge Ave line. Objections by residents of Rittenhouse Square killed any hope of an extension of Locust St Subway (Very rich and politically powerful). So the Woodland el became the Subway Surface Tunnel from 40th st to The Market Frankford Line.
9) This was originally the 37-Chester Short Line. The Terminals were Juiniper Station to 6th and Welsh Sts, in Chester. This line was abandoned in pieces then in 1955, The 36 and 37 was combined and re-routed into the Subway.
10) Basically the City wanted to link the Subway to parts of the Commuter rail system. That's why the line was built to Standard Gauge, not the wide gauge used on the Market Frankford line.
5) TRUE - The City had the station built under the site of the old SEARS store. It is a station and a short tunnel at each end of the station. It possibly could be included in any building of the Roosevelt Blvd extention. (that probably won't happen on our lifetime, considering how long it takes the City Gov't to get anything done.)
I've heard that this phantom station was demolished along with the Sears store a number of years ago. Is this true?
Mark
The Greenburg Model Train Show will be at the Fitness Center of Hofstra University in Uniondale, NY on the weekend of October 5th and 6th from 10-4. Admission is $7 and good for both days. Does anybody plan to go?
I will most likely be there for the Saturday show. Hope to meet some of you there.
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
I'll be on my Honeymoon in the Carribean. I'll be in Croton Harmon on 10/19 for MN's Open House, anyone going to that?
A current G.O shows #3 trains running express in Brooklyn with the #2 and #4 late nights, is that a misprint, or will the #3 really be running 24/7 this week? Will the shuttle buses be suspended then if there is #3 service?
There is no 3 service overnight. Consider the poster to be a misprint. If the GO was running during the day when the 3 runs, then that's a different story.
-Stef
Listen FAT ASS!, I been in that situation few years ago. I nearly lost my life as a result. Of course you do nothing cause you scared. I bet you never been in that situation. Either you just pretend to act tough with YOUR SKANKY ASS ATTITUDE OF YOURS. Oh, of course you pretended to act tough. You just all talk and saying lots bullshits. You say, I would sit there and shit my pants. Why you just take a look at yourself in a mirror. I think that you just as fat as the name itself. By the way Pillsburys doug boy. GO JOIN A WEIGHT LOSS PROGRAM.
Since I had to go to Boston on business last week, I took the opportunity to ride Acela Express for the first time. While my overall impression was very favorable, I discovered two major design defects in the equipment.
1) The bathroom doors have a tendency to lock by themselves with no one in the bathroom, requiring the crew to periodically unlock them. I was told that it happens when the door slams shut, sometimes causing the lock parts to move enough to go from unlocked to locked positions. "For want of a nail, . . . ."
2) The bar stools in the Cafe Car are just about the most uncomfortable that I have ever sat on!!!! Damn shame, since they also provide the best view for rail fanning out both sides of the car.
The bathroom door lock issue was addressed by David Gunn when he berated Bombardier for not being able to make a bathroom door lock that works after 150 years of history of bathroom doors on trains. Bombardier rebutted by stating that Amtrak insisted on a new technology door lock in spite of Bombardier's strenuous protests that a proven lock should be used.
Apart from the usual reason -- gross stupidity -- why did they want a new lock?
It's a cover up. Bombardier went for the cheapest lock they could find, and then blamed it on Amtrak. That said, the Amfleet locking mechanism didn't work all that well, and the people who makes Amfleet locks are probably out of business anyway. The point is whoever chose the lock, it should work...
... but you can hardly help it if parts suppliers are going out of business left right and center.
AEM7
The cafe car was designed so that you would want to return to your seat. I guess they succeeded.
Im actually a fan of the Acela cafe---it seems everytime that I ride, the car is full of people who choose to stay in those seats instead of the coach seats.
It's also popular among laptop fans, who like to use the desk space (however they tend to stretch their laptop cords from the wall which can create a tripping hazard)
nwsrptr...are you Randy Kennedy of the NY Times or Arthur Chien of NY1? If none of the above, who are you? (out of curiosity). -Nick
>>2) The bar stools in the Cafe Car are just about the most uncomfortable that I have ever sat on!!!! Damn shame, since they also provide the best view for rail fanning out both sides of the car.<<
I wonder if those bar stools were designed by the company that designed the bench seating for the R-40M and R-40 slants ?
Bill "Newkirk"
>> ...were designed by the company that designed the bench seating for the R-40M and R-40 slants ? <<
I know I'm in the minority here, but those particular bench seats have the best lumbar support (for me) of anything in the MTA system. I slip and slide and get aches from other cars, but when I sit up straight in an R-40, I get great lower back support. And I ride them every day...
I can't comment on the Acela Cafe Car seats, because the two times I rode it, all seats in the Cafe car were taken, and no one was getting up complaining about them.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
When I was told on the tour that JFK Airtrain is going to use steerable trucks, I had a few of questions that I didn't get to ask. Does anyone know:
1) When were these things first invented?
2) Does anyone else use them? Has any system ever used them?
3) If they are so great on systems with sharp curves, why aren't they used by NYCT? I.e., what's the downside?
4)what are they?
(1) I think they've been around as early as 1970, in experimental versions, and was developed by the Rail Technology Center Inc in Pueblo Colorado. Europeans may have used them before TTCI tried them though.
(2) Lots of European high speed rail systems, such as the Swedish X2000 tilting train, and also EMD for their freight locomotives (they are called "radial" trucks there.
(3) They are expensive to maintain and to buy? I don't think there is a real downside, it's just a question of whether radial trucks are needed on a particular installation. EMD does them by default because that would allow their locos to be sent down industrial spurs.
(4) Radial trucks are trucks that do not tie the wheelset down to the truck frame. The wheelset can glide backwards and forwards in a limited cage, so that if it encounters a curve the outer flanges can line up with the curve and cut into the rail less and lessen the probability of derailemnt.
AEM7
I like your answer to #4 better than my own - much simpler and understandable - but see my prior posts for the real answer to #1.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steerable or radial trucks trace their origin back to early three-axle designs, as noted in my prior post. I don't know exactly what design is being used on the Airtrain, but modern designs come in several forms: three full solid axles with the outboard axles floating (within limits) on individual pivots, two full solid axles following the same principle, and four half-axles that move semi-independently within limits (they are ordinarily interconnected to some extent, but exactly how that works is a mystery to me). And there may be other variations with which I am not familiar.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You've had excellent explanations of a steerable truck. I guess it might help to understand the problem that makes it atteactive.
Regular railway trucks are rigid in their frames in a horizontal direction.
Compare to an automobile. The wheels on an auto that steer (usually front wheels) each turn in the same direction when the driver steers the vehicle. They move independently of each other and at an angle to the axle. The non-steering axle is rigid but the wheels of that axle can move at different speeds around curves because the axle has a differential gear which allows this.
Since railway axles typically allow neither of these motions both wheels of the axle run at the same speed around the curve so one or both wheels has to slip on the rail as the curve is negotiated. Also, since a minimum of two axles is rigidly arttached to the frame in the horizontal plane, nether axle will be at a 90 degress angle to the rail.
The combination of these problems is what cause the loud squeal chacacteristic of sharp trolley car curves, or South Ferry loop, for that matter. The attendant friction and grinding causes noise, wear and a greater possibility of derailment on very sharp curves.
That all is what the steerable truck is trying to address.
Since railway axles typically allow neither of these motions both wheels of the axle run at the same speed around the curve so one or both wheels has to slip on the rail as the curve is negotiated.
That's not strictly true. Conical wheel profile means that the wheel would slide slightly towards the outside of the curve, such that the outer rail is riding on a portion of the tyre that is slightly larger than the corressponding portion on the opposite tyre on the inner rail. This means that the outer wheel would move slightly faster linearly even though both wheels are rotating with the same angular velocity. There is a balancing speed at which this works perfectly, but that likely balancing speed is probably different from the train operator's speed thru the curve, and probably different from the balancing speed that would ensure no lateral forces in the train.
But yes, for the most part, on tight curves, the outer wheel slides a little, or the inner wheel spin a little.
AEM7
For futher infomation on this truck, see patent number 4,729,324 in the Patent and Trademark web site (www.uspto.gov).
1) When were these things first invented?
2) Does anyone else use them? Has any system ever used them?
They've been around for over 100 years. Here's some information, quoting from 3-Axle Streetcars: From Robinson to Rathgeber, vol. 1, by Henry Elsner, published in 1994, preface pg. v:
The 3-axle car was developed in response to a fundamental problem of rail vehicles: the friction between wheel-flange and rail-head on curves. The solution ... is appealingly simple in concept: three axles, flexibly connected to each other, would automatically assume the minimum-friction radial position on curves and then realign themselves correctly when traversing straight track. Or so the theory goes.
Attempts to put this theory into practice had been made sporadically on European railroads throughout the 19th century. The first application of the linked 3-axle concept to electric street railways was carried out in the United States in 1889 by William Robinson, a prominent inventor of railroad signal systems.
...
In Europe ... the principle was again revived in the 1920s. ... Street-railway and interurban cars equipped with it were sprinkled across Europe by the mid 1930s; fleets of them were to serve over the next several decades in more than a half dozen cities. Significant numbers remain in use today as two-car trains in Munich, as trailers in Basel, and as unique 5-axle articulated units in Augsburg. Scattered others can also be found elsewhere in passenger service, as utility cars, or in historical collections.
Boston was one of the major users of the Robinson radial, but like most systems was never fully satisfied with it.
3) If they are so great on systems with sharp curves, why aren't they used by NYCT? I.e., what's the downside?
Elsner devotes an entire chapter to this in volume 2 (published 1995); it goes into extreme detail at a technical level which I don't pretend to understand (even talking at some length with Henry hasn't helped my understanding much). So my suggestion would be for you to obtain both volumes 1 and 2, read and absorb, and then maybe you can explain it to the rest of us :-)
Hope this helps.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Airtrain trucks only had two axles it appeared, and they both could turn independantly of each other.
I wonder if that steerable design would allow the 67 ft. 110B to run in the Eastern Div. The BMT standards were able to because of an odd truck design (with different sized wheels and asymmetrical axle placement) so maybe this would have the same effect. The TA should look into this, and then they can take tham out of 207th and use them on the M shuttle.
I wonder if they could possibly allow 75 footers to negotiate the curves better.
Speaking from a position of rather limited knowledge: I don't think that radial trucks would in any way address the issue with 75' cars in parts of the system. The effect on turning radius is negligible, the benefit is less flange and rail wear. The BMT standards, as you indicate, were a significantly different overall car design, and that was the key.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think the use of maximum traction style trucks (one wheel larger than the other) on the BMT standards had a huge effect on ability to take shraper curves; rather I believe it was that they had a relativcely short truckbase (47' kingpin to kingpin, IIRC), which caused more overhang as a tradeoff.
What he may be thinking of is the obscure technical detail which
prevented the R110B from clearing where the Standards did: that
the truck bolster on the Standards is not exactly centered between
the axles, because of the maximum traction design.
Well, to coin a bad oxymoron, the Standard trucks were kind of a Minimum Maximum Traction truck--the drive wheels were 34-1/4" and the trailer wheels 31". The bolster was 7" closer to the trailing wheels than the powered wheels, or to put it another way, 3-1/2" off center.
How did the lack of that offset make the R110B incapable of making the BMT Standard clearances?
It was a matter of inches, or less. Think about a standard
with a particular wheelbase ( I don't remember what it is) and
the off-center truck bolster. Now think about the 110B with
one truck in the exact same position. The body bolster distance
and the wheelbase was the same, but the truck bolsters were on center.
This means the other truck is not in exactly the same spot as if
it were a standard. Draw the clearance diagrams in both cases.
The result is ever so slightly different. Basically the body has
to be at a different angle to the track, and that was just enough
to cause a problem.
The Standard trucks were 6'7' axle center to center.
I have to be missing something here. If the kingpin/truck bolsters were in the same location on the Standards and R110Bs, I'm not understanding how the length oF the truck either side of that point would make a difference. The cars would still pivot on the kingpins in the curves.
Maybe the kingpins aren't in the same place?
Think about it. Yeah, it is kind of confusing, and I had to draw several diagrams to get it. Someone tell me if I understood this wrong:
(1) Standards and R110's has the same length carbody, and trucks mounted at the same positions. The only difference being that Standards had trucks that were off-center, thus one end of the truck is longer than the other (viewed from the standpoint of the car).
(2) Now, what happens when those trucks travel around a curve is that the location of the car is dictated not by the location of where the truck is mounted to the carbody, but by the geometric center of the TRUCK (i.e., equidistant from four points of contact between wheel and rail). Now, in a R110, the geometric center happens to be where the truck is mounted to the carbody, but in a Standard this is not the case.
(3) So, if the mounting points are closer to the inner ends of the trucks (i.e. if the outer ends of the trucks were longer), then the carbody would tend to be stuck out towards the inside of the curve. If the outer ends of the trucks were shorter, then the carbody would tend to be stuck out towards the outside of the curve.
I wish I had a scanner, I would scan in my diagrams. This is so confusing.
AEM7
You've nailed it.
So having trucks with independantly turning axles wouldn't similarly change the body turning angle? (e.g. reduce overhang)
OK, I've got it now. Talk about a game of inches...
However, not to extend this thread forever, but I would think the locations where those inches would make a difference on the Eastern Division would be elevated, and that any clearance problem could be fixed with the simple moving of trackside furniture.
It was a more daunting task to prepare the rest of the B Division for 75' cars, or the Fulton L for 10' wide cars in BMT days.
Just dumped Truck 101. R142 axles float beneath rubber chevrons, axles follow curves, outside wheel distance becomes greater than inside wheel distance, all are held in place by welded upper truck pins with lower truck guided by rectangular holed plate encircling pin. T/O applies brakes on severe curve, speedgoes < 10 mph, pneumatic braking engaged...T/O releases brakes and outside wheel TBUs which had to reach further to contact tread mechanically adjust to compensate burning out brake shoes on straights. Coupler pin debacle still going on, shear pins in couplers breaking more than ever, BBD trainsets are junk and I'm tired of Redbird 'resurrection duties.' I personally 'buried' 8874/8875 which went to work train service. Pair had come back for inspection....back for inspection again with shot shoe beam today. Eimac 8874 axial cooled GG triode...Eimac 8875 horizontal fin cooled GG triode (got box of em.)
TA work is excellent work...CI Peter is getting tired.
I've never seen drawings on the truck designs. I assume the
BOM trucks are different from the KHI? So, on the BOM trucks,
the radial action is deliberate....How are the traction
motors mounted? Are they hung from the axles or are they
mounted on the truck frame?
Has this slack adjuster problem been corrected on TBU +++ rev?
The simple answer is R - 1 4 2
," why aren't they used by NYCT?"
On the normal NYCT truck, each end of each axle is free to move vertically in what is known as the pedistal casting. This consists of two vertical members, a rigid top and a hanger strap at the bottom. The axle bearing box moves up and down only.
In a steerable truck the axle can move up and down and laterally. The idea is that the wheel set will seek the point of least friction while the cars are on a curve by always seeking to be parallel to the rail. In such a case, the 2 wheels on the inner side of the curve will move closer together and the wheels on the outer side of the curve will move apart.
Obviously - they are used on the newer NYCT cars - not without problems.
TD: Are the R142 trucks truly radial or just a wing-journal
design? Any differences bet 142 and 142A trucks?
Jeff, the journal bearings on the R-142 are mounted in a chevron spring which allows the axle to move laterally as well as vertically. While I suspect that the R-142A truck was intended to be the same, it is obvious that the R-142A trucks do not have the same problems with the alignment of the TBUs. I have not gotten to see either from a technical standpoint as my visa to cross the B/A border is expired.
And the downside of your side of the house not being mixed up in the 142 capers would be?
Sometimes those border guards with orders to shoot to maim B division types can be a good thing. :)
Yes, we do sleep better on my side of the border
Heh. We'll see what happens a couple of years from now when the 143's and 160's make it up your way. From "in de hole" to "over de fence" perhaps. But yeah, at least the MDBF's across the yahd ain't sticking to YOUR face. :)
1) When were these things first invented?
Ages ago. Brill had them for trolleys. They've been around in one form or another for decades.
2) Does anyone else use them? Has any system ever used them?
Lots of freight RRs use them. Amtrak's GE locomotives have them I think, as does the AEM-7. The LIRR's new diesels have them, too.
3) If they are so great on systems with sharp curves, why aren't they used by NYCT? I.e., what's the downside?
They are a bit hard to get the brakes on them, and they've been maintence problems on some systems.
I do not think that any Amtrak locomotives have them. Radial technology is not needed on B-B trucks. B-B trucks can make it around on any curve there is out there. C-C trucks is what have the problems and it is on C-C freight locomotives that you can find radial trucks. It allows them into small twisting secondary tracks that used to be the domain of B-B power only.
There was a B-B version of the radial truck. Genesises definitely do not have them (go look at one up close), and the AEM7s may or may not have them (but probably not). The only thing running around with radial trucks on FRA trackage are EMD and GE's C-C freight locomotives. In fact not all GE's have radial trucks, whereas the EMD ones come as standard on the AC locomotives beyond about SD-60M.
AEM7
Funny, because the Airtrain has brakes that apply to both the wheel and the rail, so perhaps it is hard to have sufficient brakes on them.
It is part and parcel of ICTS, and has been since it was originally designed. Does that help?
-Robert King
Another negative article in the Courier would normally rate a ho-hum, but this time, instead of quoting NIMBYs, writer Richard Pearsall quotes NJ Transit Executive Director George Warrington [generally held in low esteem by railfans].
Brief quote from the article:
"The irony in all this is that the line is not a congestion reliever," Warrington said. "We're going to be paying this off for the next 17 years while basic mobility needs are not being satisfied."
"We continue to have extraordinary problems on Routes 55, 42 and 38." [end quote]
The 17 years refers to the time period for paying off the $450 bond issue that former Gov Whitman floated to pay for construction of the $600 million SNJLRTS. The cost is now estimated to be "nearly $1 billion", not counting the $140 million in cost overruns whose responsibility is under contention.
The article also mentions additional cost overruns currently being generated by the rebuilding of grade crossings that were incompetently designed.
My insider electrician source told me that it's SOP to do electrical work two or three times because the first, and often second engineering designs, were incompetently done. He and his associates refer to contractor Bechtel as "Rectal".
S.J. Light Rail Line already in trouble
I wouldn't be surprised if the SJ Light Rail line turns out to be one of the biggest turkeys of all time, similar to the New York, Westchester, and Boston. (At least we got the Dyre Avenue line out of that.)
I don't see anyone using it because everyone in the Trenton/Camden corridor travels up and down Interstate 295, and traffic moves pretty well.
We shall see...............
Warrington? OH that's priceless ... I would have thought for sure after his turning Amtrak into the smoking crater it is today, that boy couldn't get a job at Wal*Mart ... wowsers. My sympathies to Joisey. :)
It was in trouble the day it was proposed.
I was just enjoying the Newest Images section with the R40's photos that were added. So much for the KK always having the oldest equipment. The caption says it's an R40M (but I think it's an R42, as the distinctive R40 "dent" is not halfway up the car. I never knew they used the R42's on the old Chrystie KK route. It's a nice photo.
its a 42
When the R-42s arrived in 1969, a small number were sent to the Eastern Division, so all lines could have at least one or two air-conditioned cars. The one on the KK would also be seen at times on the LL, QJ and M trains.
QJ had its own group of R42; the KK, LL and M had a different set.
This is #4918, the beau of R40 #4259. This car is currently wearing the nose of R42 #4726 and has a black floor inside.
wayne
>>This is #4918, the beau of R40 #4259. This car is currently wearing the nose of R42 #4726 and has a black floor inside.<<
Wayne,
I was on the Steeple cab / D Type trip today. As we passed Coney Island yard, I saw #4206 (Frankenslant) outside by itself. I wonder if the work is finished and is it going into the paint shop ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You mean #4260, (that's a typo no doubt). How did he look? Good as new, I hope.
Any sign of the bride-to-be, #4259?
thanks in adv.
wayne
Maybe she's already at Niagara Falls.:)
I know, I know: slowly I turn, step by step...
GENTS WITHOUT CENTS! Don't get me started he says (as the light fixture crashes down on his head)....nyuk nyuk nyuk!
wayne
Check out the guy who just got off that train. Don't know why, but he catches your attention.
I noticed the same thing. Looks like something from Shaft.
My 1972 - 1973 ERA Bulletins arrived yesterday, and there were some R42's used in KK service. Most of the service was provided by Eastern Division assigned R1-9's.
In fact, Greller's NYC Subway Car book has an R42 marked KK crossing the Williamsburg Bridge.
The KK started service (07/01/1968) near the end of the BMT Standard era. Were Standards ever used on the KK?
Yes, they DID appear there occasionally - VERY occasionally - see photo of BMT Standard #2424 in the archives, it's in KK service; I actually saw one of these ancient beasts back in late 1968 northbound at Broadway-Lafayette. It was strange seeing the BMT Standard in an IND station. When KK ran BMT standard, they usually borrowed it from the M.
wayne
That Standard can't be a "KK" unless the date on the photo (4/9/1968) is incorrect. "KK" went into service in July of that year.
You know, you have a point there! The Standard I saw was on November 29,1968 - maybe the one in the photo is a "JJ".
wayne
BMT standards were used on rush hour Broadway-Brooklyn local (later JJ) trains along with R-16s, as in this pic:
IIRC, the "KK" designation existed before 7/1/68 to designate the old #14 route. I think some of the cars bought in the 1960's like the R30 and 32 had "KK via Nassau St" on it's rollsigns.
The designation was on the R27/32 rollsigns, but wasn't used. They used JJ instead since the express was QJ, they didn't need KK. QJ and RJ were added to the R27/30 signs, but not on the R32.
When the new rollsigns appeared on the R32/38s,it did have All Eastern division routes in differents colors....the R16's also.
The caption says Canal St. (Nassau), but it doesn't look it is.
Canal has two island platforms so you shouldn't see a wall on the left side.
Anyone can identify the station?
Definitely BMT Style. Slightly curved.Hmm...
The caption says Canal St. (Nassau), but it doesn't look it is.
Canal has two island platforms so you shouldn't see a wall on the left side.
Anyone can identify the station?
Definitely BMT Style. Slightly curved.Hmm...
It could be Essex Street on the Broad Street bound side possibly ? I don't know if it's Canal because Canal does have a mosaic border, Essex doesn't. At Canal though, there is no mosaic border at the extreme northern end. It probably is the northern end of the Queens bound platform (no tiles on pillars),and the train on the center track (remember Canal does have a curtain wall dividing the two platform areas.)
Looking at this picture and this picture made me think again that this isn't Canal.
At this angle, you should be able to see the pillars and lighting on the "local" track side, which you don't see in http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r16/r16-6454a.jpg.
I maybe wrong though...
Valid points. I'm not sure either. It can't be Essex, like I said earlier as the train is marked to go north, not south.
It's Canal street,believe me... Ive used this station enough to know... AND both train types...[ahh.. those were the days...]
Those were the days is correct! While I don't remember the 16's looking that good, I do remember them quite well from the early 80's on the M. I hated them back then! What I wouldn't do now to see one of those rolling disasters to pull into a station now though!!!!
Iuse to ride them with my mom all the time with my mom,when I was a kid.I hated them during the 80's while they were on the J,BECAUSE THEY WERE CRAP!They were always freezing during the winter,and hot like heck in the summer. Couldn't stand them then,and dont like them much now.But most of all,I didn't like the R7-9 in it's last days over there[1977].
As I posted in my reply to Chris R27-R30, I'm asking about this photo. I know that the two photos I linked in the last post are from canal/nassau.
this was the old BMT 14 ''SHORT LINE''.It ran rush hours only from Canal street to Atlantic avenue or Rockaway pky. It was the Broadway Brooklyn local service,that was replaced by the JJ[in 1967],then by the KK/K line in 1968.And that station is Canal street.
That's definatley Canal/Centre Sts, in both photos.
Well I know that the two linked photos are from canal/nassau.
The original question was about this photo, which I didn't link in my last post.
The caption for this photo says it's canal/nassau.
That's also Canal/Centre. That pic is that of a train on the inside (express) track on the northern platform, as opposed to the other two.
I finally went down there to see for myself.
Most of the northbound terminating track was sealed off. But the north end was still open and I realized the platform narrows as it goes up north. Something I didn't remember. So it explains the curved platform on that picture.
They were sealing the openings of the wall curtain, too.
Anyway, thank you and love9400 for the responses. Without them, I would probably not have been motivated to actually go there.
A piece of history is going away, and I got to see it before it was too late. The works to "two-track" the line are really in progress.
Oh BTW, I too was at Hoboken on Sunday. Also rode on the HBLR.
I thought they should have made a stop in the "Staples/Food mart international" area. It could have been great for their business, and convenient for shoppers. Maybe in the future, they can convert the turnback track into a platform.
Most of the northbound terminating track was sealed off. But the north end was still open and I realized the platform narrows as it goes up north. Something I didn't remember. So it explains the curved platform on that picture.
I think that narrowing/curve at the end of the platform was from a platform extension long ago. Thsat part of the tunnel was at one time in the tunnel. You can also w=see where the wall tiles loose the mosaics on that section. I wonder how long ago that extension was built. Does Bowery have that also?
YOUR VERY MUCH WELCOME.
I would take a guess and say 36 Street on the 4 Ave line. The wall curtain is similar to the one at Canal Street as well at Bowery Station.
["It was strange seeing the BMT Standard in an IND station."]
Wasn't there an occasional Standard on the Queens Blvd Local?
["It was strange seeing the BMT Standard in an IND station."]
>>>"Wasn't there an occasional Standard on the Queens Blvd Local?"<<<
occasional Standard on the Queens Blvd Local? It was the norm after
the connection to the BMT 60th Street tunnel joined the IND under
11th Street, Long Island City and the Brighton Local went to
Forest Hills.
;| ) Sparky
That's why I thought it was a pretty cool photo, as any time I ever saw photos of the KK it had R1-9's, not something as "modern" as an R42. Did the R38 or R32 ever run on the KK, or is the R42 the only "current" rolling stock that ran on the KK?
I'm pretty sure the R38's never made it. When the KK was running, they were primarily on the N and some were stored in Jamaica for E service. Maybe there was an occasional R32, and I think there is a picture of one on this website signed up for KK service, but I could be wrong.
When the KK was cut back to the K, and ran from Eastern Parkway (two trips started from Rockaway Parkway), R27-30's would make an occasional appearance.
In my ERA bulletin, it stated that riders were upset about the cutback, so the TA would put some R27-30's to give riders more modern equipment, an improvement over the R1-9's which were on their way out at the time.
Th one and only time I saw modern equipment on the KK was a six car train of 4 R27s and 2 R42s, with most of the destination and route signs improperly set.
I do think I heard an R38 on the QJ one day. The brake release on them in those days sounded like the Bronx-cheer one does when sticking out their tongue. I don't think the R27/32/42 made that sound.
I saw the R42 "KK" at Myrtle on November 4 1969 - here's the car numbers: 4914-4915; 4918-4919, 4904-4905; 4898-4899. Those are from my original car sightings Grey Book. Thats the same ride we had a mix R7a-R9 and the lead motor was R10 prototype stock #1575.
wayne
IIRC that was the first time you saw that R-10 imposter, wasn't it?
Yes it was. A real curiosity, it was - looked every inch the R10 inside too.
wayne
Steve,
As much as you have your thing for the R-10s, I would love to get
that imposter out of Court Street and pair it with 1689,
The ODD COUPLE at Branford. :| )
~ Sparky
Since when are you interested in Rapid Transit Sparkey? :)
Jeff,
I have some interest in RT. I rode the arnines on the "GG".
But do have a thing for 1227, 1349 & 1362, as I rode the Myrt
in my teens. Had disdain for the 'C' types on the remains of
the Fulton El, but cherished the 13 line in rush hour service to
Lefferts with the Multis. Standards on Frankie to Coney Island
as Expresses on the Bright, prior to Fs to C.I., via Culver.
Have a thing for Low Vs also, 5466 is on my faved list, as a
solo act. Double Greens on Lex for Jerome Avenue, where I rode
to fetch the YL that showed me how to do it. See I may be a
Trolleynaut, but do have some RT ties. The 17s are O.K., but
a 15 in original paint is a handsome brute for the runt of the
Rs.
;| ) Sparky
Sparky is a member of the 3/4 Ton Crew for a couple of reasons. One of which you've just read about.
That might work, when I saw it that time, it was pulling such ancient beauties as 1708, 1524, 1496, 1629, 1557, 1733, and 1638. I wrote down the car # when we got to Eastern Pkwy. The KK we were on was at the tail end of the rush and was going to bed in ENY yard, so we got a QJ following and it was a brand new R42 (4882-3,4854-5,4866-7,4870-1)
GREY BOOK Notes of our November 4, 1969 journey
wayne
Wayne,
Not being into the mechanics as some other members of this board,
but 1575 is electrically a R7A dressed as an R10. So it would
run with the R1-9s, but not the R-10s. That's why my wish list
involves sending it to Branford and the exposed R-10 at C.I. in
original paint to Court Street to replace it. A win-win for all.
It's wishful thinking.
;| ) Sparky
Then the R-10 currently at CI could be coupled to 8013 and/or 6387.
I agree; it's time to show off the real McCoy at Court St.
Eh? Perhaps, if we can convince the Museum to relinquish 1575. Besides, there's a genuine R-10 at Coney that could use shelter. Yes, you can dream!
-Stef
OK, as long as we're fantacizing, how about 2775, the BMT Standard rotting in the back? I'd love for that to be restored and taken out to Short Beach!!! I'll even volunteer to operate.
A rotting Standard is reality unfortunately, but there's a glimmer of hope for all equipment. You just have to believe.... Now if we could put up the additional barn space, 2775 could get a roof over her head and not be exposed to the elements any longer. Never fear, we'll find ways to stabilize her.
-Stef
2775 will be a long project. If you have been following what the boys have been doing with the set of three at Coney Island, you'll know what I mean.
In any case 2775 is on my wish list too. What we need is a few more folks to come up & get dirty with the rest of us.
Hey Thurston - As you know I'll be there tomorrow with Paul P, BMTman and others. As usual I'll bring a change of clothes with me. What project have you signed me up for tomorrow ?
Stef, BMTman, Lou from Brooklyn, Sparky, Jeff H., Anon-e-mouse, myself and others are going to take you for a ride !
I'm psychied.
Is there a barn that it can even fit in? It is undoubtably the museum's longest car.
At the present time, it his highly doubtful you can squeeze a 67' car into the existing barns. We still need to put up a new barn....
-Stef
>>>"We still need to put up a new barn...."<<<
...or another "carr hause", as we say in Brooklyneese, if you put on
a "Trolley Pole", we put them under cover...
;| ) Sparky
While we're on the subject of BMT Standards, why can't a BMT Standard run with one R-9 truck? Is there that much of a structural difference between the original Standard truck and those? It would sure be nice to add 2204 to the operable train of Standards.
The mechanical experts should actually answer this, but the truck is incompatible with the car. As to whether or 2204 would ever get to run again, who knows?
-Stef
Gotcha Stef,
We'll play musical R-7A/R-10. 1575 goes to Branford and is replaced
at Court Street with the exposed R-10 at C.I. in original paint.
I concur. It's a win ... win for both, but we have to build a
car shelter for the pair.
:| ) Sparky
Hey, I'm all for it! With all due respect to 5466, I'd love to see 1689 have a sister unit for a playmate. That way, you could actually play conductor the way it was meant to be done: outdoors. Right, Kev?:)
It may be an R-7A from a mechanical and electrical standpoint, but 1575 still has some unique aspects to it, doesn't it?
["That way, you could actually play conductor the way it was meant to be done..."]
You mean Like This? (By the way, that's Thurston peeking over my shoulder)
Sarge,
Don't get Steve B that excited, you may do this this weekend, but
we will not be operating the "Odd Couple" on Sunday, October 13,
when he's in town.
;| ) Sparky
I'll bring some tie-wraps ... he gets out of control, and I'll lace himi up to a few straps for his ride back up the hill. :)
Neener-neener.
Dang! You even LOOK like a cop. Heh. And yo! Hands off the glass! :)
Guys, Notice how we pass the juice between divisions ?
It's the big black cable ... and what secures it on the ends ... vice grips ... hay it works !
We gotta get you guys a set of clip leads ... :)
We'll let Unca Peter hook it up and call it the "big insect" ...
Clip leads??
The end of the cable is held on by a vice grip.
We gotta get you a tour of one of the car barns in NYC one of these days. They have NEAT clip leads for the bugs with a nice retractable hood and everything. And from what CI Peter has told me, the design is the same as it was 30 years ago. That's what I meant by "clip leads" ... they're just bigger. Not messy like the old HiV jumpers. :)
Been there done that, i.e. had a very nice ERA sponcered tour of CI where I saw a number of bugs in use.
Yeah, spent a LOT of time there for the almost a year that I worked for the TA - with 6 hours to sit around and rot between shifts, I'd often go hang out and watch the various things that were done there from brake replacement to wheel grinding (the wheels used to come OFF the axles back in my day, they tore it *ALL* down) to all sorts of undercar welding ... NEAT stuff. And of course some of my Arnines were up on sawhorses, they could have dropped them on BUS tires. Fascinating stuff to watch. That and the sideshows on Coney Island. Woohoo. :)
Well on the 13th you can see our Wheel Lathe @ BERA, maybe get Jeff to turn it on and ruin your hearing.
I'll pass on the deaening screeches. Heard more than enough of that at CIY years ago. Actually, I'm VERY impressed hearing you guys can turn out your own wheels. Given the age of the equipment and not expecting that you guys would have a lathe, I was expecting to hear a lot of R-10 style "clop clop clop" ...
Someday I'll scan one of the pics of me between 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum when you could still assume the position.
With the Lo-V or Hi-V & R-9 you C-A-N assume the position.
The photo that Jeff Rosen posted shows him doing just that.
The only problem for you former TA guys is that only one car platforms < G >
Feh. Some geese drop on the ground. MIND THE GAP! Heh.
[... MIND THE GAP! ...]
We have to do that big time as the platform is set for IND/BMT width, so when the IRTs platform there is a nice GAP.
Feh. One inch plywood and platform conductors. Make the geese WALK THE PLANK ... it's EVERY conductor's fantasy. :)
I was talking a "what do they WANT for their lousy $35? To live forever?" kinda gap. That too is every conductor's fantasy, to open up an unplatformed car and let them meet Darwin if they ain't paying attention. And not to worry, we're MERELY talking fantasies here ... safety is critical, even if it ain't NYCTA property. All of my rap is idle talk. But I'm still willing to let out a blood-curdling scream if it makes folks chuckle. But rule number one anywhere is nobody dies or needs a nurse. Unless they're INTO that kinda thing of course - provide your own nurse however.
Father Selkirk will be blessing cabs at both ends of the train. Moo.
Call me fussy, but I'd rather have an R4, 6 or 1 ... now a THREE car consist would be the teats, we can put it on the tail end and see how many people get confused and pull brake, forgetting that it won't lap without help. :)
Yeah, they'd pull on the brake valve, nothing happens right away, and #$@%$^$#%#!!!!!!!
I gotta make sure I don't crash 1689 because I waited too long to apply the brakes.
I only operated an R10 for a few minutes in school car and honestly don't remember it, but I'm pretty sure the application delay was about the same as an Arnine - the TRICK was it was self-lapping. Someone operating an Arnine THINKING it was an R10 would suffer "brake fade" if what I think I remember is correct. Now if it's a DELAY you want, nothing could delay like a BRT El car ... I think it was 5 whole seconds from pull to clampdown ...
<one does when sticking out their tongue. I don't think the R27/32/42 made that sound. >>
Actually the R-38s, R-40s (slant and modified) and the R-42s all had similar sounding brake releases, quite distinctive from the earlier cars. I was crushed when they lost that during their GOHs.
The R38 had a distinctively different brake releasing sound than did the R40/42. The latter was the infamous "Darth Vader" sound. The R38's sounded exactly like the R36.
The R-38 had the same WABCO brake package as the R-40 and R-42. The R-36 had the earlier WABCO "SMEE" brake package and sounded like everything from R-10 to R-33.
David
If you're insinuating that the R38 made the same sound pre-GOH that the R40/42 did, then you're wrong, reguardless of the equipment used.
I'm not insinuating anything. I'm stating a fact: the R-38, R-40, and R-42 cars had identical braking systems. Whether they sounded the same is a matter of opinion. Mine is that the R-38 and R-40/R-42 sounded, if not identical, then closer to each other than the R-36 and R-38, with different braking systems, did.
David
That's possible. My recollection of the pre-GOH R38 is more like "It wasn't like the R40/42" than "like the R36". I used the R36 because it's the next oldest car and I assumed they used similar mechanics.
Sorry, but YOU are wrong, I know for a fact the R-38s did not sound like the R-36, I used to hear them passing by John Dewey HS on the N when I went there and was on the yard.
Nope, they didn't sound like R36's. But they sure didn't sound like R40's. That's something I can say with absolute certainty.
You can still hear it on PATH trains. Same sound. Brings a tear to my eyes at times.
I think the one you're talking about is the R32 signed up as "MM" at De Kalb Avenue; I did not see any R32 in Eastern Division until 1971. I never saw any of them in "KK" or "LL" service; only "QJ" and VERY RARELY, "M".
wayne
Here's an R30 on the KK. However, anything but an R7 or R9 on that line would have been really unusual. BTW, does that bulkhead sign say "Nassau St" underneath the "KK"? I'm on my WebTV and the resolution isn't as good as if I was on my PC:
It does say Nassau Street, which is strange since it's only on Nassau for one station at Essex. I never saw a R27 "KK" either.
It does say Nassau Street, which is strange since it's only on Nassau for one station at Essex.
Not even there. It's under Delancy Street at Essex St.
It is on the Nassau Street line thouhg...which by the way is only really under Nassau Street for two stations.
:-) Andrew
I meant Nassau as in "only one station on the Nassau Line". Actually, isn't under Centre Street more than Nassau? Years ago it was called the "Centre Street" Line.
Lines seem to be often named after their extensions.
The original East Side segment of the IRT ran under 4th/Park. It was extended up Lex. It's now commonly called the Lexington Avenue line.
The original West Side segment of the IRT ran under Broadway. It was extended down 7th. It's now commonly called the 7th Avenue line.
The original Centre Street BMT line was extended under Nassau Street. It's now commonly called the Nassau Street line. (Even on weekends, when the Nassau segment proper gathers dust!)
That is very true. I guess it works for Lexington, as it is on Lexington a long length and any mention of 4th Ave is useless today anyway. But, as for the West Side line, it is on Broadway for much greater distance than 7th Ave! Although calling it just the Broadway Line would confuse it with the BMT Broadway line. I was going to say, maybe they go by the "midtown" portions of the lines, but then Lexington would be called the Park Ave South Line!
What you said makes more sense, some lines began being called by their extensions.
The E/F/R/V line is another example. Only the section west of Van Wyck Blvd. to just east of Grand Ave. of the "Queens Blvd IND" acually runs under Queens Blvd. I'd assume the original route would have been built along the entire length to the east if the #7 wasn't already there.
I'd assume the original route would have been built along the entire length to the east if the #7 wasn't already there.
I'm glad they didn't do that, but I don't know if we can be sure about that - look what the IND did to the Fulton El in Brooklyn, and a lot of other lines that were lines were duplicated or almost duplicated. We are better off that they didn't do a similar thing to the 7 line that they did to the BMT Fulton line, even though it was almost all rebuilt. I feel the Fulton subway was a real waste of money, even though it is a good line right now. (I do know the original politics involved with the IND, BMT, IRT at the time) It's a shame though that the money spent on the Fulton Subway wasn't used elsewhere to build a line somewhere where there was no subway service, such as parts of Queens or in Manhattan on 2nd Ave. The subway system would be better off if there was a line built on 2nd Ave in the 40's - and Fulton would still have been served, as the Fulton el only needed a small amount rebuilded, as much was done already. (It could have connected to the Cranberry tube even though the Cranberry tube was built for the Fulton Subway, it would have just been built to connect the Fulton El to Manhattan)
Remember, the KK designation wasn't first used for a 6th Ave route, but a Nassau St/Broadway Bklyn line (the old #14).
Ah, that explains that.
Yes, initially the KK was to be a Nassau route. There was to be an MM service that would've run via 6 Ave Local!!!! TOny
Yes, initially the KK was to be a Nassau route. There was to be an MM service that would've run via 6 Ave Local!!!!
I never heard that! What route was the "KK" supposed to go originally. I did hear about the MM originally supposed to be going to 6th Ave. I remember back in the mid 80's the R27-30's used to display a green MM on the M route. (The "green" was because it was set up for the colors of the MTA "spagetti" map colors where every route had a different color - it is the most confusing map I've ever seen!).
From past postings, the "KK" designation was retained to differentiate the Broadway Brooklyn local from one that started in Jamaica to one that started in Canarsie ("JJ"). It was never used in this manner, though. The cars which had number signs always used "14".
Those cars were the R-16s.
From what I remember of the from end route sign of the r27-30's, I don't believe that there was originally an "M" sign. I think that they took the "MM" and put black tape over one M (the MTA did the same for the "BB" route sign for the R-32-38's).
In a previous post, someone mentioned that the original "KK" designation was to be used to differentiate the Broadway Bklyn branches that alternated between Canarsie and Jamaica 168 or Crescent St (JJ). That would have been something in the '60's for the Broadway El to consist of the the following services: JJ, M, MM, RJ, KK and QJ!!
Tony
From what I remember of the from end route sign of the r27-30's, I don't believe that there was originally an "M" sign. I think that they took the "MM" and put black tape over one M (the MTA did the same for the "BB" route sign for the R-32-38's).
Yes, the R27/30 as well as the R32 had "M Express via Nassau St. It was used by the Nassau loop "specials" on the Brighton and 4th Ave line prior to Chrystie St. opening.
In a previous post, someone mentioned that the original "KK" designation was to be used to differentiate the Broadway Bklyn branches that alternated between Canarsie and Jamaica 168 or Crescent St (JJ). That would have been something in the '60's for the Broadway El to consist of the the following services: JJ, M, MM, RJ, KK and QJ!!
I don't think all of thos services would have run at the same time.
#4921 @ Alabama Ave:
#4916 @ Woodhaven Blvd:
You know, that guy was the first thing to catch my eye in that pic.
Probably just came from his gal's house, if you know what I mean.
Pretty happy after leaving his gal's house....
They did, very rarely.
It is definitely an R42. Not only is there no indentation on the side, but the ridges are the fewer, fatter kind of the R42.
:-) Andrew
Another way to tell the difference is the beltrail at the bottom of the cars. R40M had beltrail similiar to units from R16-R38.
The R40M has the same corrugation and side notch as the regular R40 does. Don't forget, the R40M is essentially a Slant R40 with a modified (hence the "M" in its name) nose and bonnet. The car in that photo is NO R40M, and as such should be corrected.
wayne
I know its an R42, hands down. I never said it was an R40M. I used to ride these babies on the D train as a kid, and on the K as a teenager.
Remember them in their final days (before overhauling) on the D/B/K? Sad sights indeed.
Yup. I remember riding an R32 K train from the World Trade Center. I never saw another since on the K.
its a KK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, that's definatley an R42. I was going to tell Dave myself that it was mislabeled.
Amtrak's David Gunn lays out his plan to save Amtrak to the Philly Inquirer.......from what I'm reading, I think this is the man to (finally) do it.
Link to article below:
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/4122863.htm
This really isn't anything new from Gunn, but it does reinforce my opinion that if Amtrak can be made into an ongoing, viable concern, he's the one who can do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What was the general opinion of Gunn while he managed the DC and NYC transit systems? Good manager?
yeah... he has saved many systems
Yes - not necessarily popular with middle management, but he understands the problems and refuses to be hide-bound by tradition - "we've always done it that way" means nothing to him, although he won't throw out a good way of doing things simply because it's established either, ideas, methods and procedures stand and fall on their own merits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wait, hold up. Gunn actually did stuff for NYC Transit? What exactly? Was he part of the bureaucracy?
Gunn was president of the TA for a number of years. He took a dismal, poorly-run system and made it into a well-oiled machine that New Yorkers could be proud of.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, I guess he remade NYC Transit from the bad days of the 70's to the modern system we have now?
He was instrumental in doing so, yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gunn is probably best known in New York for getting rid of the graffiti on the cars. He wouldn't let them come out of the yards.
In Washington, his problems were political. He wanted absolute control over hiring and firing and the Metro Board of Directors didn't want to give him that much control. His contract as GM wasn't renewed when it came up for renewal. He was in DC, IIRC, for 3 years.
Michael
Washington, DC
All right!! I feel like... giving Amtrak some MONEY! Hey, I might, Hoboken Festival is next week and I gotta get there somehow...
If ANYONE can save Amtrak, David Gunn IS the person who can save Amtrak. If it weren't for David Gunn, the New York City subways wouldn't be as clean and reliable as they are today.
#3 West End Jeff
Can shuttle bus service really replace train service?
They even have shuttle train service early Sunday Mornings, so why not all late night like the #5 which also has shuttle service?
NYC is the only city I know of that has traditionally tried to serve every single station 24/7.
Replacement buses are generally inadequate. However, we're only talking two stations on the #3, so a bus may not be the most convenient way, but it is a minor issue compared to most every place else.
I'm more concerned with the fact that there is no service at all for years to Ocean Parkway and W8.
until 1994, the #3 did run 24/7
Well, yeah, but they decided they could do without that one, to crew and switch a run for such small benefit. Happily, they haven't extended that theory too far.
I guess by the time someone got off at 135th St. and waited for the shuttle to switch in, load, etc., they could as easily be on a bus for the few blocks.
You mean the 3 ran 24/7 between 148th and 135th Sts. Hmmmm..... Is there any reason for it coming back? Plenty of switching moves, getting out of the 2s way, and patronage may be low. Running the train costs money. You can keep things moving without those 3 shuttles. Of course, if they wanted to bring the shuttle back, I would extend the shuttle to 96th St, since the 2 goes local overnight and it would be out of the way....
I'm trying to recall if the shuttle was double ended... Having a train operator at each end would speed things up.
-Stef
I had the opportunity to work the Lenox shuttle once a week on Tuesdays in 1987. It was indeed double ended. The train would discharge at 135, then pull south of the station, the motorman on the north end would pull the train into 135 middle, then the motorman on the south end would pull it south onto the n/b track and then the north end motorman would pull back into 135 on the n/b track for the trip back to 148. I could count on one hand the number of passengers we would pick up between 1AM & 5AM.
I thought it was double ended, but couldn't remember for sure. I can recall seeing the shuttle pulling out soutbound past the switch at 135th St, while the 2 waited outside the station behind the homeball.
Patronage is quite low.
Regards,
Stef
The #2 isn't local until around 1 AM(I think) like the #4 train
Yeah, I noticed that on the subway map that Ocean Pkwy and West 8th are supposed to be served by the B-68. While Ocean Pkwy is served, the bus takes a very weird and indirect route after crossing Ocean Pkwy; no doubt a victim of political influences. It takes about 10 minutes for it just to reach Coney Island from there, and it doesn't stop near the Aquarium.
"Can shuttle bus service really replace train service?"
If you have fewer than 40 passengers in the time it takes a bus to make a round trip, sure a bus can replace a train.
Also, take a look at the track map. A 3 shuttle would have to wrong rail from where it joins the 2 until 135th, making corrdination with the 2 very tricky. And then at 135th there's no free crossover. You'd need an employee standing there all night to hand out transfer tickets.
They do it on Sunday mornings, shuttle train service
Short route: bus is cheaper than train, both fuel wise and crew wise when you add up all factors, including OPTO.
>>Short route: bus is cheaper than train, both fuel wise and crew wise when you add up all factors, including OPTO.<<
Fuel wise? Crew wise? Have the 3 run a opto at night. And as for fuel, get back to reality.
They also don't have to employ S/As to be at those stations if they are closed. Running the 3 as a shuttle seems to make the most sense. Also, it isn't too far from 135th to 148th.
>>Short route: bus is cheaper than train, both fuel wise and crew wise when you add up all factors, including OPTO.<<
Fuel wise? Crew wise? Have the 3 run a opto at night. And as for fuel, get back to reality. No offense but no NYC subway line needs a fueled train unless for construction.
"No offense but no NYC subway line needs a fueled train unless for construction."
Electricity used by NYCT trains is generated by burning oil. A single bus is more energy efficient than a single train. The bus also carries about 1/40th the load, but in the middle of the night that may suffice.
Youh just gave me a question. How can the MTA power the subways without destroying the Ozone layer?
"How can the MTA power the subways without destroying the Ozone layer?"
Burning oil doesn't destroy the ozone layer, but it does add CO2 to hte air and contribute to global warming. Trains contribute to global warming, but far less so than the number of cars that would be needed to carry the same number of people.
Also, photosynthesis offsets the burning of oil, so we don't need to stop burning oil altogether. If everyone rode only trains, not cars, we'd be a long way toward solving the global warming problem. (Yes, I know that's not practical).
So your saying it would be better to dirve cars than ride trains?
No.
My bad I got that mixed up
My bad I got that mixed up
Whether you run a train or a bus, diesel-powered or electric, carbon-fuel or clean electricity generation, it is always wasteful to run vehicles with no passengers on them! The 24-hour service on NYCT is much valued by the members of this board, but it does have its economic and environmental downside, where routes are very little used at night.
The power that the MTA uses (from NYPA), is generated though a mix of activities, including hydroelectric generation, burning natural gas and nuclear fission. Hydroelectric generation and nuclear fission are considered "clean" methods because they do not release harmful gasses into the environment. I don't think that oil is used for electric generation much anymore. IIRC, a full train costs less to operate that the equivalent number of busses. However, in the case of the 3 line, that train would be nearly empty so bus service might be more appropriate. I'm no expert on the merits of bus substitution, but I do know that 148-Lenox Terminal and 145-Lenox Av. are not the busiest stations even during rush hours. I would not expect too many people to be affected by the decision to close these stations overnight.
On the subject of the stations served (or not served) by the 3 late at night, how many stations will only allow you to enter for one way travel, excluding terminal stations at all times?
At 145 on the three, you cannot enter for travel uptown and there is no free crossover.
At 238 on the 1, you cannot enter to travel uptown to 242 and there is no free crossover.
I realize this doesn't seem like a big problem and it isn't, but I remember not too long ago, the 1 was running on the middle track downtown from 242 to 215, an elderly neighbor wanted to get downtown, he had to walk to 242 as you cannot get the uptown train for at 238.
Why doesn't 238 have HEETs like the other uptown platforms north of Dyckman? I agree that it is a problem that, during that GO, there was no way to enter at 238. Expensive as it may have been, IMO the TA should have opened the gate on the NB platform to allow access, waived the fare on the NB Bx9 at 238, or gotten around to installing HEETs.
It may appear at first glance at Dyckman on the A that there's no access to the NB platform from the street, but there's an underpass inside fare control.
I would have to guess they didn't install a HEET at 238 to save a few dollars. How much does one HEET unit cost? They did put them in at all the stops north of Dyckman, so why not at 238? I can't imagine there are all that many people getting on at 225 or 231 going north either.
I don't think that oil is used for electric generation much anymore.
You are correct on this.
Most of the power generated in NYC is gas power. The Ravenswood electric generation plant in queens used coal, but now uses Natural Gas. Another plant in Astoria queens is schedueled to be closed (it uses oil, and it alone pollutes more than any other source in NYC). New plants built in the city use gas instead of oil.
"I don't think that oil is used for electric generation much anymore."
Maybe not specifically for electricity used by the MTA, but it is a major source of electric power nationwide, as is coal. And gas is a hydrocarbon too. To the extent MTA uses less hydrocarbons, someone else is using more. All the nuclear and hydro plants are used to the maximum capacity feasible, and hydrocarbons are used to make up the differences.
Also, the buses used as shuttles are really revenue M7s and M102s. The MTA is using the same buses for more than one purpose, so they save in even more ways. Note that the 3 train shuttle bus no longer runs.
Yes my friend, fuel. The electricity used to power subway trains is generated by a fuel source. I am sure more fuel is needed to generate the electricity needed to move a subway train (multiple cars) rather than a single diesel powered bus.
As a matter of fact, it used to, well, at least until 1995. Consider that a victim of budget cuts and the MTA's logic that two local buses running 30 minutes apart and a shutte bus in between can suffice.
Also the #5 got cut from 241 Street as part of those budget cuts and some Wakefield riders were inconvienced.
Give me a break. I haven't ridden the WPR line past Pelham Parkway but presumebly by running the 5 to 238th, they were able to get into and out of the yard more easily.
I know that, but sometimes the 2 does take all day to show up. I have even seen two diamond 5 trains arrive before a 2 train at one time
I failed to see the purpose of terminating the 5 at 238 St. 1 lousey stop from 241, the northern terminus. Yard access is available from both ends, isn't it? If not, 2 trains have to do the same as 5 trains. 5 service should be restored to 241.
Yard access is available from 241 but requires reversing. Takes more time and costs more.
Gotcha. Thanks.
And almost all 5 trains at 238/241 go straight into the yard for the night, while most 2's at 241 reverse and go back to Brooklyn.
hey guys. just letting you know the night shift is crazy lol but im used to it. amazingly when i rode the 852 to Jamaica to Transfer to a Train to NY i always attempt to look out the window altho u cant see much at 9pm. However! when my train to penn station got the all aboard, our doors closed. but i see a pair of bright lights headed down track 1 which happens to be out of service at that time. I saw the M7! 7007 lead car and the engineer i couldnt see because he had his lights set to HIGH. the electric sign said NYPSCC TOWER. i guess it was testing cause it looked like the R142 did when it was first testing. IMO, it looks like a mix between a Acela and a R142
Talked with one of the engineer's who operated one last week.
The crews I've talked to like them. They are eager to get them into service.
For this guy, it was a 6th day job.
He seemed to care more about if he could operate them vs. whether or not he cared if they got in to service sooner or later.
They look like R143s more than R142s.
wayne
Just before 9 PM Monday, I observed an M7 train of 6 cars traveling west at the Jamaica Ave. overpass. It looked awesome.
But you won't be able to observe them anymore since they don't have a Railfan window. Just like montreal.
I saw an M7 train but not too well though just west of babylon station on one of the tracks. I saw it vaugely the reason i knew it was an M7 was becuase of the very big windows and single leaf door. I hope they go into service soon :-).
Who will join Me and Sea Beach Fred on Sunday Oct 14 to ride the rails?
What's October 13th then if you have October 14th? Where are yall riding the rails to and from? Where's the meeting spot?
#1979 7 Flushing Local
Sea Beach Fred will be in from LA and I will be up from Virginia, and plan to ride the rails with a few guys that day, and he plans to do the same on Monday
I'm going to Branford on Sunday the 13th to join up and take a crash course on 1689 (rim shot!).
Will meet Fred and anyone else who shows up on Monday.
Steve: Let me know when and exactly where you are going to be so I don't miss you. I'm at the Penn but I don't mind hitting the road to meet you somewhere at your convenience. Let me know soon.
I may try to join you to ride the rails along with #4 Sea Beach Fred. If it is cool enough I'll be wearing my little black hood.
#3 West End Jeff
Jeff, it would be great to have you. No time yet, We will be starting out from the Hotel Penna on 7th and 33rd Xcross from Penn Station
Rosanne and I most likely will be there Sunday. Do you have plans for Saturday evening? And,...what did you say the phone number of the hotel was?
One of the most famous phone numbers in the world:
(212)PEnnsylvania 6-5000
Peace,
ANDEE
Time to cue up that Glenn Miller hit.
Call the number and you can hear it,
Peace.
ANDEE
Just for the record, am I still in your killfile?
no...not for a loong time
Peace,
ANDEE
That's good. Maybe we'll run into each other during my trips to New York. I will be in town from October 11-16, riding the rails with a bunch of other crazy railfans. If you can join us it would be great.
I'm free Saturday evening. In fact I will be there from Friday the 11th to Wednesday the 16th. It would be shame if a bunch of us subway high rollers don't get together and have some fun.
Hey Fred, how about pizza at Lombardi's on Saturday the 12th?
Is Steve ready for the Live Performance, and the Season Opener of the Bob and Fred Show, on Sunday Oct 13, 2002????
If you two come up to Branford, I am. Or I could catch it that evening, if we're not back too late.
I may have time Friday Evening and Saturday Morning. Saturday Evening I have a wedding in Rockland County, Sunday Fred and Me all day, and maybe Monday Morning free. will know more by next week
Keep me posted by all means.
I'm not sure where Lombardi's is but, sure, why not. In fact, since I don't eat that much pizza I can eat spaghetti or something like that.
When you figure out a time please let me know.
#3 West End Jeff
BoB: If your starting out from Pennsylvania Station are you sure that your not taking the Chatanooga Choo-Choo? Seriously though what time are you taking about?
Larry,RedbirdR33
They were talking about 8 to 8:30
More like 10.00.-1030 Fred is staying at the Penn Hotel(Former Statler) 33rd and 7th I have to drop my wife at her cousins on York Ave, I am staying in Long Island City, and will be moving in with Fred.
Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooo.
The Pennsylvania will never be the same again.:)
You two could do your act in the lounge.
Bob, why don't you and Fred come on up to Branford on the 13th instead? We're having a special SubTalk Day up there... see the Upcoming Events section of this website for more information. Selkirk and wife are due to come down, the usual SubTalk/Branford crowd (BMTman, Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn, Sparky, Jeff Hakner, myself, and hopefully Stef and some others) will be in attendance, Steve B from Denver will be there, quite possibly some others, and we're going to run the R9 as a charter for those who contribute appropriately to the cost. We'd love to have you!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If my wife's birthday wasn't that weekend, I'd be there, and would have contributed to the R9 charter to boot.
That also rules out riding the rails with my kindred Sea Beach Fred.
Maybe next time.
I'm gonna miss my fellow Sea Beach comrade. Wish your better half a very happy birthday for me.
Gnetlemen,
Being absent for 2 weeks from this board, a clarification in requested.
Sunday, October 13th is SubTalk Day @ Branford [re a ride with Selkirk].
Now the magic question is the "Bob & Fred" show on Sunday,
October 13 or Monday October 14?
Do we have conflicting events?
Thank you, ~ Sparky
"Bob and Fred" is also Sunday the 13th... guess Fred didn't enjoy my company last month when we met in Newark so he's boycotting us :-(
Seriously, Sunday's the only day Bob is available for the whole day so he and Fred decided riding subway cars in their native habitat was more important than visiting our antiques at Branford. Steve and I tried to convince them otherwise but to no avail.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks CK,
I was looking forward to joining the "Bob & Fred" show on Monday,
October 14th. Well maybe, we will get the Fred part of the show
later in week, since he's around till the sixteenth. But, I'll
have to wait and see how long Steve B will be in town and we will
do our thing.
;| ) Sparky
Bob says he might be able to make a token appearance on Monday. The irony is that Bob was the one who suggested I come out a few days early in the first place, and now I may not get to meet him.
Fred is available on Monday and Tuesday.
I will be in town all week until Friday the 18th. Monday and Tuesday have been set aside for railfanning. Howard Fein has indicated he will be on hand on Monday, as will Fred and Thurston. Wayne had to postpone from Monday to Tuesday.
I'm still meeting you at Queens Plaza on Sunday morning the 13th, right?
Yes Steve,
Your reservation in the Sparkymobile to Branford on Sunday, the 13th
of October is confirmed. Just have to iron out the exact time
and location, with my usual rider, Big Lou. May adjust the pick up
point to 21th-Queensbridge on the 'F' line to accomodate, you our
out of town guest. It would be easier for you to reach from your
hotel, rather than 3 trains to reach Queens Plaza.
In most probability, I'll be doing railfanning with many of youse,
that week also.
Pardon, the confusion, but being in the "South of Maine" for ten
days and now doing catch up, I'm off MY TROLLEY. >G<
;| ) Sparky
Actually, it would be a one-train ride for me to either Queens Plaza or 21st-Queensbridge. My home station will be W. 4th St., so all I have to do is take either an E or F to whichever station you'll be at. Keep me posted.
Steve,
I thought you were closer to Sixth/14th, so it'll be Queens Plaza,
unless of a G.O. which would affect the "E", that weekend. It's
easier for Big Lou to get to Queens Plaza even on the weekend,
but not as easy as his day job to the same location Mon~Fri >G<
;| ) Sparky
The way it works out, W. 11th St. is virtually equidistant from both the W. 4th and 14th St. entrances. As a rule of thumb, if I'm coming from Queens on an F, I'll get off at 14th. If I'm coming in from the south or from the north via 8th Ave, I get off at W. 4th.
If I'm starting out on an IND trip, my starting point is W. 4th. Much more flexible with a wide selection of trains.
I see your point about a GO affecting the E. The V doesn't run on weekends. There's always the R, assuming it's up and running that early on Sunday mornings. I don't have any qualms about walking over to Union Square; in fact I do it quite often.
Reminder:
Autumn in New York is just a GOOD memory now, so if you missed out it's not too late to sign up for the R-9 #1689 Charter at Branford on Sunday October 13th.
The car is all ours for a few hours. Dispatcher John S. will be letting us go down the line several times in between the regularly scheduled trolley trips. We'll also find some time to celebrate Steve for Denver's birthday. In addition there will be time in-between trips to see the rest of our collection.
If interested e-mail JohnS or our "Pilot" Lou from Brooklyn for more specific details.
Thurston,
..."We'll also find some time to celebrate Steve for Denver's birthday"...
Hey what about the other natal day celebration for the guy that's
two days older then Steve B. You know the guy who red faced on a
Metro North Coach last year. >G<
;| ) Sparky
Oh, we've got to replace the ceiling lamps with CANDLES! :)
Birthday party on an Arnine ... heh. This reminds me of the Lindsay days when the TA made extra pocket cash to pay for them bing-bongs by renting out "party cars" ... we gotta get a cake and torture a pair. I thought it was just Unca STEVE that I'd get to torture. You mean there's a ... a ... BONUS? Wowsers!
This just gets better and better! We can foam on a CAKE! Heh.
I better go to bed, long night of nasties to dissect in the computer lab. And some of them actually required some ATTENTION. :)
... we gotta get a cake and torture a pair.
OK, guess I better bake one then... good thing I'm not coming up the day before :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are we singing "MacArthur Park" perchance? :)
Not with one of MY cakes!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hay, if Maynard Ferguson shows up, why not?
Oh where is Doris when you need her ?
Thurston,
Yes we do miss the social director, that kept track of all those
little dates.
;| ) Sparky
Everybody has there good points, that surly was one of her's.
Who's two days older than me?
Steve, I think Sparky's got your birthday confused with Sea Beach Fred. Sparky's two days older than him.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
..."Steve, I think Sparky's got your birthday confused with Sea Beach Fred. Sparky's two days older than him."...
I is demeritorious in this instance.
;| ) Sparky
My birthday is actually Nov. 19th. If we're going to celebrate it a month early next Sunday, that's OK.
Steve,
I have no knowledge of who started the buzz, it was your birthday
and that was the purpose of the charter. It wasn't I. So now,
it looks my natal day only. >G< Unless someone has a change of
plans and joins us Sunday.
;| ) Sparky
Well, regardless, there will be a cake... all participants in the charter and slaves in the shop will be invited to partake.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds fair enough.
We've just heard that there may be some Gandy Dancers along the ROW, so it looks like no shortage of folks who will want to help celebrate the birthdays, btw mine is in December, but that would be realy pushing it.
I'm surrounded by Libra want to be's.
Guess it's a good thing I'm making a bi-level cake :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about Boston Cream Pie?:)
How about Boston Cream Pie?:)
Hmmm... none of our Beantown friends are coming, though... but you've got me thinking... and that's VERY dangerous... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Uh-oohhhhhhhhhhh.....:)
Im trying to talk my employer to give me this week end so I can come along[with the old ball and chain,of course] I'll be there with bells on!!! no really... with bells on so you guys can spot me!!!!
Will those bells be the rectangular upstate Bossie style, or small round, church like? :)
Haven't decided yet[lol].... but you never know...
Gotta do it in style, make a statement. Mine is "moo" ... heh.
Decide in the positive...make a commitment. You never know what tomorrow may bring...never ask the Lord what may come tomorrow...but
this is a special event and even if my car dies out somewhere, I'll be happy to have made the effort, truly. CI Peter
hey,I FEEL YOU!Now if I can get ''the ol' ball n chain to tag along... that would be somethin'!!!! All in all ,I'm dying to hook up with you guys this weekend,if not just to see the faces behind some of those unique handles,but just to have fun![it just to see you guys, really... no really.... no Im not kiddin']BRING IT ON>>>>
Cool! She can meet my other half, there's an inducement. And the GUYS get to show their wimmens that there's genuine foamerettes in the world that are far saner than us guys. Heh.
I'm getting this sinking feeling that the wimmens are gonna kick the GUYS off 1689 and take her for a ride without us. We'll have to give chase in a trolley. :)
>>>I'm getting this sinking feeling that the wimmens are gonna kick the GUYS off 1689 <<<
SPEAK for your damn self, I'm trying to covince my BOYfriend to come along.....hehehe
Peace,
ANDEE
Heh. I smell a plot thickening. I've got a shoe paddle and know how to use it. Yeah, to put my damned SNEAKERS back on. :)
Of course, if the line were double-tracked, we'd have:
1689
6688
Well, it IS double tracked, but not for quite long enough. And that ain't a fair drop, word is Unca Stef snuck a hemi engine into 6688 which is why it can never quite stop before it hits the signal. :)
We recently installed a governor on it.
Geez ... maybe I ought to cancel. I'm *NOT* getting on a train if Paturkey's on it. I'll ride the bus with Bruno. Moo. :)
haha
I'm STILL proud of the fact that I ran an R143 before Paturkey ever set foot on one. Got my money's worth THAT time. :)
What! On 6688? Don't tell me it's been neutered.
OK I won't tell you .... < G >
Ooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooo.
That's OK, after svrgery, the patient gets a fresh coat of red paint and all the ice cream it wants. :)
sent you an email,and it was sent back....you puter didn't like the way it tasted...
support@nsclean.com should get through to me, same for kevinmca@nsclean.com ... maybe misspelled?
>>>"Guess it's a good thing I'm making a bi-level cake :-)"<<<
How about tri-level, that'll take care of October, November and
December. Covers the final 1/4 of 2002.
;| ) Sparky
You know, you might be on to something there... won't be room for a Boston Cream Pie if I do that though :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Isn't life great ?
Here we are a bunch of guys who have come to know each other from opposite sides of a computer monitor. Now we get to enjoy each others company traveling within one of our favorite retired subway cars, while outside the leaves on the trees are just about to turn in this rual setting. No Trick or Treat for us, just treats this Sunday !
I guess you can tell I'm realy looking forward to it, even if I have to do a little WORK as part of the museum's operating staff.
Hey, I can't wait!
Look at it this way then ... the "Birthday boy" can have any rollsign position he wants! :)
Steve B, what is your birthday? I'm very tardy at dates.
;| ) Sparky
I'll probably be there both days, i.e.
- Sunday on the R-9 charter
- Monday at Penn Station to meet up with you guys after 8 AM.
What do you think about the light rail in utah.
Rode it during the Olympics, interesting with the borrowed Dallas
(DART) train sets...
UTA Trax is one of my favorite light rail systems. I like the cleanliness of the system, but what I really like are the incredible views of the mountains that flank Salt Lake City on the east and west. I do have to say, the system will be a lot better when they build the airport line. Currently, a long bus ride connects the train to the airport. SLC is a Delta hub, and I sometimes have layovers there, during which I like to ride Trax. This will be a lot easier with an airport line! :)
Mark
Is it better than dark rail?
:0)
Is the C - Train running 10 car yet. thank you.
No.
NO....the C train is 8 cars.
Peace,
ANDEE
Nah, the C Train hasn't gotten the 10 Car Length yet, although they did test it a few months ago on the C, I should know I ride the A & C Lines everyday.
-AcelaExpress2005
They wouldn't need a test for that. Perhaps an A Train put into service on the C?
It wasn't a A Train put into service on the C, I posted this about 2-3 months ago about this, and they said that it was a test.
-AcelaExpress2005
Is the weekday G up to 6 cars?
Yes
what about the weekend G,is it 6 cars also?
All weekend jobs on the G from Saturday midnight thru Sunday PM are 4 car OPTO.
now that sucks,especially for the shoppers at 63rd Drive,Woodhaven Blvd and Grand Ave-Newtown.I bet they'd love to have 6 car G trains so they dont have to walk as much with all the bags they might be carrying
Weekend OPTO G is a rather long trip. And they tend to get very crowded toward Continental at the exress stations if there is a delay in R service. It really shouldn't be OPTO because of its' long length and high ratio of passenger to single crew member. And I hear of delays at the end points as he has to clear the train of passengers all by himself. Time consuming and it delays the F at Smith/9th.
What are you talking about???????????? The G Train hasn't received the 6 Car Length yet.
-AcelaExpress2005
Tell me where you heard that. The G began running 6 car trains on all tours except all Saturday tours and Sunday AM and PM tours on 9/9/02 (not a typo). The tours that are 4 cars long are OPTO. The C did not get the 10 car trains that were rumored to be running on it effective on that date and if you ask me, there are better places to put extra cars than on the C.
Actually, the C train would benefit a lot with the 2 car addition. Those trains can get pretty crowded in the AM rush hours.
The G has 6 car trains restored? that's very cool. But, the G should not have 6 car weekend trains, because it shouldn't run beyond court square.
It doesn't have 6 car trains on weekends because a 6 car train would be longer than 300 feet and OPTO requires that the train be 300 feet in length or less.
There are more important places to put extra cars than on the C. I would rather see increased service on other lines like the N and R before C trains became full length.
But the Fulton Street line needs full length, at least during rush hours. I would propose swapping the C and E. Have the C terminat at WTC during the week, weekends. During Rush Hour have it run to Rockaway Park. Here is the proposed service..
A - To Far Rockaway CPW Exp, 8th Ave Exp, Fulton Street Exp, Rockaway Exp (skips 88th - Howard Beach) [Rush Hour Peak Direction]
To Far Rockaway CPW Exp, 8th Ave Exp, Fulton Street Exp [All Times]
E - To Lefferts Blvd 8th Ave Exp, Fulton Street Exp [Rush Hour Only]
To Lefferts Blvd 8th Ave Exp, Fulton Street Local [All Times]
C - To WTC CPW Local, 8th Ave Local [All Times]
To Rockaway Park CPW Local, 8th Ave Local, Fulton Street Local [Rush Hour Only]
S - To Rockaway Park Rockaway Local [All Times]
This would work great because you can run OPTO during the weekend and provide 8th Ave and CPW service more frequent. The E can take over the Fulton St line and provide better service with a full length train and run exp during rush hour. Only drawback is will there be enough cars. Hell Bring the slants back to the A line.
Frank D
If you wanted to keep the 8 car trains on CPW and get 10 car trains onto Fulton Street, I wonder if you could have the C and E swap southern terminals although I don't think you can do this.
No it doesn't. The C line does a fine job with it's current 480' trains.
I submit that the fact that Euclid-bound C trains are often quite crowded in the late evening and early morning suggests that they might benefit from a couple of extra cars. I suppose you could say that the C has extremely efficient use of resources because cars run quite full at most hours, but I don't know if the riders would appreciate that argument.
Yes, the C is crowded. But not "overcrowded". Crowding on the C is comparable to the A, maybe even less.
No it doesn't. The C line does a fine job with it's current 480' trains. Adding 2 cars would be a waste resources.
Chris-
Thats your opinion and I respect that, but the Fulton Street line has become a joke as of late and the local service is a joke as well. Only alternative I see is to run the C from 168th in Manhattan to WTC All Times and let the E run to lefferts Blvd all time but become the Fulton Street Local. But there isn't really anything wrong with my first suggestion.
Frank D
Chris-
Thats your opinion and I respect that, but the Fulton Street line has become a joke as of late and the local service is a joke as well. Only alternative I see is to run the C from 168th in Manhattan to WTC All Times and let the E run to lefferts Blvd all time but become the Fulton Street Local. But there isn't really anything wrong with my first suggestion.
Frank D
local service along Fulton St. a joke? uh uh.I think a train every 10mins everyday is decent enough.If anything happens that makes it more than 10mins then you can blame it on idiotic people who do the most stupidest things in the world just so they can make a name for themselves.
local service along Fulton St. a joke? uh uh.I think a train every 10mins everyday is decent enough.If anything happens that makes it more than 10mins then you can blame it on idiotic people who do the most stupidest things in the world just so they can make a name for themselves.And fail miserably I might add.
10 minutes isn't terribly frequent in comparison to what some other systems have.
When the V train was being discussed I read that the R was running at 75% capacity on Queens Boulevard. If this is the case, why would more R service be necessary?
The R runs at 70% in Queens. In Brooklyn, south of 36th St, R service is inadequate.
"The R runs at 70% in Queens. In Brooklyn, south of 36th St, R service is inadequate."
If you are correct, there is a simple solution. According to the MTA schedules, there are more trains on the Queens leg than the Brooklyn leg. Some Queens trains turn at Whitehall. If traffic justifies it, they could make the two sides balanced and not turn any trains at Whitehall. This wouldn't even take much more rolling stock.
It is also possible that your personal observations aren't as complete as NYCT's traffic measurments, and possibly the Brooklyn segment is no more crowded than the Queens segment. One would have to ride both regularly to know for sure.
Good idea. However, those "extra" trains would have to leave Forest Hills at 6 AM to be of any use to Brooklyn riders, since most R trains are stored in Queens. Those short run R trains as they run now wouldn't be of any use to Brooklyn riders because they'd arrive at 95th St after the morning rush has ended.
The Whitehall R Trains are probably needed so that there is room in the Montague tunnel for the M Train. So, sending all R Trains to Brooklyn will probably have to wait until the N Train can run over the Manhattan Bridge in 2004.
If that is true, then the answer is obvious - send the peak-hour M to Bay Ridge, instead of down the West End to Bay Parkway, to provide the required extra peak frequency to the Brooklyn end of the R.
I agree that should happen too.
We've discussed that option before. It can't be done because the lack of a storage yard at 95th St. prevents it.
"The Whitehall R Trains are probably needed so that there is room in the Montague tunnel for the M Train."
The Montague tunnel carries 7 Ms, 7 Ns, and 7 Rs, give or take one or 2. There's plenty of room for a few more trains.
I thought it was 9 R, 9 N and 7 M's?
Because Broadway BMT services are far too infrequent in my opinion and are higher on my priority list.
The R runs every 6mins during the rush hours and every 10mins during the rest of the weekday and weekends.with it running together with the G and N/W,you can't ask for anything better than that otherwise there'd be major delays that isn't worth going through.So I say your wrong,Broadway BMT service ISN'T infrequent.Far too infrequent would mean a train every 20mins all day long not 6-10mins all day long.
The R runs every 6mins during the rush hours and every 10mins during the rest of the weekday and weekends.with it running together with the G/V and N/W,you can't ask for anything better than that otherwise there'd be major delays that isn't worth going through.So I say your wrong,Broadway BMT service ISN'T infrequent.Far too infrequent would mean a train every 20mins all day long not 6-10mins all day long.
Perhaps my DC standards are playing a role in this. I am used to having trains come in minutes after their leaders do without delays. Don't say it can't be done. Also, I have had to wait much longer than 6 to 10 minutes for N and R trains.
Where would you put the extra cars if the MTA had them?
in the yards if there was any space left but since all the yards a full to capacity already with the cars that they already have,new yards need to be built and that is in the MTA's future plans. When will it be done? who knows.
The question was not where you would store the cars, it was where would you run them.
on trains that needed them like the C and G and on other lines for expansion purposes.
ya nuts? If the G didnt run past Court Sq. then the R would have to handle the QB load all by itself just like before 12/16.And it cant.No way in hell can one train handle one area all by its lonesome during the weekend on QB.Once one train leave,not even 3 mins later and the platforms are half crowded already.Trust me,for 63rd DR., Woodhaven Blvd,Grand Av. and Steinway St,there needs to be a G and R
Whnen was this put into effect?
-AcelaExpress2005
September 9th from what I heard (September 8 was a Sunday so it would have been 4 cars).
I had two jobs last week on the G, and the G is still 4 cars.
Weekdays or weekends? I don't think some people here are making the distinction.
I won't quote from the Daily News, don't want to get Dave in trouble with the copyright sharks, but a guy had a good letter in yesterday's paper and, as a former BMT 4th Avenue rider, I can certainly empathize.
He said he lives at the 95th Street end of the line and remembered when the R provided direct service to Queens, 24/7. These days, at least some of the time, he has to take the R to 59th, change for the N, then take that to Pacific, where he has to change to a W to get him to DeKalb. [I didn't know the W, a B replacement, stopped at DeKalb, but.] Three trains, for what used to be a 15-minute ride.
My question. What's the deal with all the service interruptions, GOs, shuttle trains, that have come up over the last 10 to 15 years? We know the Manhattan Bridge outage played havoc with various lines over that time. But, in regards to the BMT 4th Avenue, why CAN'T the R train run al the way from 95th Street to Queens? It doesn't have the bridge to deal with. Is it a cost effectiveness issue to break up service in this manner?
Hmmm, maybe the MTA could offer premium services. For your $1.50, you get local service, with the shuttles, GOs etc. But for $3, you get your super express service, which would use the bridge and the unused express tracks on the Sea Beach and Culver. With the $3, no more waiting for the shuttle that never seems to come...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Hmmm, maybe the MTA could offer premium services. For your $1.50, you get local service, with the shuttles, GOs etc. But for $3, you get your super express service, which would use the bridge and the unused express tracks on the Sea Beach and Culver. With the $3, no more waiting for the shuttle that never seems to come...]
In other words, a G.O. would be halted (and, if necessary, construction would be UNDONE) every time a premium train came along? How would that be coordinated? How would any construction be completed on time? How would the premium fare be collected?
Fare collection can be commuter style, or you can have turnstyles in the doors.
He can't walk from Pacific to DeKalb? Is it that far away?
The W stops at DeKalb when it runs via the tunnel. He should only now need 2 trains. The late night R now goes to Pacific.
He said he lives at the 95th Street end of the line and remembered when the R provided direct service to Queens, 24/7. These days, at least some of the time, he has to take the R to 59th, change for the N, then take that to Pacific, where he has to change to a W to get him to DeKalb. [I didn't know the W, a B replacement, stopped at DeKalb, but.] Three trains, for what used to be a 15-minute ride.
A 15 minute ride? 15 minutes on the R gets you to about 36th Street. I'm not sure if he meant 15 minutes to Queens, or 15 minutes to Dekalb, but in either case he's quite wrong.
I was studying the historic maps in a "Subway" restaurant and a 1930's IND one calls the Canal Street station simply Holland Tunnel. Was that its original name ?
At Canal IND, the original wall tile read "CANAL" (as does its early 90s replacement) - only mention of Holland Tunnel was on the overhead platform signs.
wayne
Needless to say, the reference to the Holland Tunnel is completely pointless. Exactly how many subway riders departing the Canal IND station will be transferring to the Holland Tinnel?
>> ...Exactly how many subway riders departing the Canal IND station will be transferring to the Holland Tinnel? <<
Umm.. about as many as transfer to the "Brooklyn Bridge" on the A/C (in Brooklyn) and 4/5/6 (Manhattan) lines?
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Umm.. about as many as transfer to the "Brooklyn Bridge" on the A/C (in Brooklyn) and 4/5/6 (Manhattan) lines?
At least you could walk over the Brooklyn Bridge though. Since, BB is on the original IRT line, it may be a throwback to when the IRT did not go to Brooklyn yet and people may have gotten off at Brooklyn Bridge to walk across to Brooklyn or the Rail lines that ran over the Bridge. The same could not be said for the Holland Tunnel.
I, for one, have transferred to the BB pedestrian walkway from the Brooklyn Bridge IRT subway stop.
If the weather is nice, this can be a great part of the commute. Watch out for those bicyclists, though!
Well, you can walk on the Brooklyn Bridge, and the bridge itself is a legitimate tourist destination.
Only Marge Simpson comes to New York to see the Holland Tunnel.
Here's one I can't figure out.
On the 4 and the B/D, you have 161st. St.-River Ave.-Yankee Stadium.
On the 7, you have Willets Point - Shea Stadium.
On the 7th and 8th Ave. lines, you have 34th St. - Penn Station.
On the 8th Ave. line, you have 81st St. - Museum of Natural History.
On the IRT, you've got 66th St. - Lincoln Center. OK.
Then you have 57th St. with no reference whatsoever to Carnegie Hall, which IMHO is more famous than Lincoln Center. You can simply address a
Carnegie Hall was already there when the BMT line was built. It was already there when the original IRT line was built, for Pete's sake. Except for the Museum of Natural History and Penn Station, none of the other landmarks existed when their associated subway lines were built.
What's wrong with this picture?
I agree. Carnage Hall should be on the station name. I think it is probably more famous than many of the other "attractions" you mentioned near other stations. Lincoln Center was built many years after the original Contract 1 station at 66th STreet was built, and the name was added. I have no idea what determines when a name like that is added. Hunter College, Columbua Univercity, are other stations to add to your list.
But, should Lincoln Center even have been added to begin with? They have to draw the line somewhere. SHould the station at Herald Square be called Empire State Building, because it is a famous landmark near the station? I agree that if they did it for Lincoln Center, the same should be true for Carnagie Hall. But at the same time they do have to draw the line somewhere.
I meant Columbia University
Here's one I can't figure out.
On the 4 and the B/D, you have 161st. St.-River Ave.-Yankee Stadium.
On the 7, you have Willets Point - Shea Stadium.
On the 7th and 8th Ave. lines, you have 34th St. - Penn Station.
On the 8th Ave. line, you have 81st St. - Museum of Natural History.
On the IRT, you've got 66th St. - Lincoln Center. OK.
Then you have 57th St. with no reference whatsoever to Carnegie Hall, which IMHO is more famous than Lincoln Center. You can simply address a letter to "Carnegie Hall" with no street address, and it'll get there.
Carnegie Hall was already there when the BMT line was built. It was already there when the original IRT line was built, for Pete's sake. Except for the Museum of Natural History and Penn Station, none of the other landmarks existed when their associated subway lines were built.
What's wrong with this picture?
(Sorry for the incomplete sentence in my first post.)
Notice that, in typical IND fashion, the Canal Street-Holland Tunnel station is not the closest station to the Holland Tunnel -- the IRT station is a block closer. (Okay, perhaps that's not entirely fair -- the only other example I can think of is Jay Street-Borough Hall.)
Exactly how many subway riders departing the Canal IND station will be transferring to the Holland Tinnel?
Well, in yesteryear you could catch the #55 bus (Drogin/South Hudson) to Jersey City, Bayonne, and Staten Island there. It used to get a fair amount of business at that stop.
Is that or another bus still there now? What bus company was it?
I think they discontinued running that line before they folded. They used to run the 55 (PABT to Staten Island via the Holland Tunnel), 99 and 99S (PABT to Jersey City/Bayonne via the Lincoln Tunnel) and the 10 (Jersey City to Bayonne, didn't go to NY). Later they added the 33 to the Wall St. area.
I suspect the 55 and 99/996 were originally different companies, as when I first started riding them (mid-70's) they had different fares (.80 for the 55 vs. .90 for the 99S, IIRC). 55 service got cut back more and more to the point where it was only a few buses in rush hour.
By the time Coach USA took over from Drogin some years ago, I think the 55 route had been discontinued.
I think the original name was "Canal Street - Holland Tunnel."
If the #7 is extended to the Javits Center, will the lower level of 42nd Street on the 8th Ave. IND be completely removed or left as it is?
Most likely, yes. It's pretty much in the way.
Why would it matter? It might actually shave off some of the construction cost. hahahaaaaa
N Bwy
Since we are on the topic of the #7 line extension, does anyone know where the tunnel leads to at the west end of the 42 street platform of the 7 line?....somewhere I was told this was an old trolley tunnel.
Greets ... all you want to know is right here:
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/steinway/
The short answer is:
- Tunnel at Times Sq leads to wall of lower level of 8th Ave subway
- Trolley loop was at Grand Central, never made it to Times Sq.
Interesting questions.
MTA has just awarded a preliminary engineering contract for this project to move forward.
According to a newspaper article, MTA may adopt a 7-year schedule to get this extension done. According to the same article, the city will pay for construction of the line. I don't know what mix of federal/state/city money would be used for this. If Bloomberg wants this line as a priority, he may be devoting a lot of city money for it to start moving ahead.
[MTA has just awarded a preliminary engineering contract for this project to move forward.]
The MTA is too much in debt to do any more then this. Since the Bond Issue failed about all they're willing to BUILD is the LIRR access to Grand Central.
"The MTA is too much in debt to do any more then this. Since the Bond Issue failed about all they're willing to BUILD is the LIRR access to Grand Central. "
Correct - this project, except for engineering and EIS work, is not funded in the Caital Plan. If Bloomberg wants it (he does, badly), then he will have to find a way to pay for it.
How about come out of Bloomberg's pocket? lol
Correct - this project, except for engineering and EIS work, is not funded in the Caital Plan. If Bloomberg wants it (he does, badly), then he will have to find a way to pay for it.
Which doesn't bode well for the start of work anytime soon given the city's shaky financial situation. It may be true that completing the 7 line to Javits will lead to substantially higher tax revenues as the far west side becomes more attractive to developers. Unfortunately, that may be too speculative and long-term to justify a major increase in municipal indebtedness to pay for the extension.
It has been noted before that its fate is linked to the 2012 Olympics bid. Successful bid = subway built by 2012. Unsuccessful bid = subway never built.
That is not the Mayor's interpretation.
Bloomberg wants the extension. He is gambling that the subway extension will help win the 2012 Olympic Bid for NY (but many other factors go into winning Olymnpic bids). He wants to build the extension regarless, and will look for a way to do it REGARDLESS of the status of the Olympic bid.
The Oympic bid represents a way to fast track the project and showcase it, but is not a prerequisite to getting it done.
My feeling is that the Olymnpics is the only way it's going to happen.
Mayor Mike doesn't seem the be the "Big Plans" kind of guy who wants to do a project thing that he'll be remembered for the next twenty years.
What we may have here is one term Mike ... I wanted to do, I did, now it's back to making money or retiring. Many rich folks get a "do something for society" urge. So, is Mike just scratching an itch ?
Hmm, your reasoning sounds feasible.
In reality, only time will tell of such a fate.
Yes, I believe they would build it only if the Olympics were brought to New York in 2012.In a recent post, somebody said the MTA approved a #7 extension to he West Side. It should be built to give the far West Side subway service and they should build it for the people, not because of a event that MAY NOT come to New York.
The only way the MTA does something for the people is when you have people who actually want something built or a new line in the existing system will have a "war" with the MTA to get what they want.
Your description of Bloomberg is not terribly accurate. It's certainly not how he built his financial empire, and I don't get that sense at all about his being Mayor.
Read up on his biographical information. That may help you size him up better.
Nobody becomes Mayor of New York as an afterthought. Too much heartburn for that. If he only lasts one term, it will be because New Yorkers didn't want him, not because he didn't want the job.
How about extending the 7 all the way west to Hoboken? I think that would be really nice and maybe someday, there can be an IRT/PATH unification. I know there will be some adjustments needed but it seems do-able.
I don't think that an IRT/PATH unification would be possible. Too much red tape and politics.
You can run IRT subway cars on PATH, but you might not be able to get through the red tape to connect the IRT with PATH.
#3 West End Jeff
Oh please. Look at this
If you have, describe your experience on it.
It is very fast, clean, and efficient. I would say the system that resembles it most is the DC MetroRail. MARTA is my second favorite subway system. If you are going there soon I am sure you will enjoy riding it.
I think it's a total bore. No express service, only one sharp curve, and that's on the non-mainline X-line that passengers rarely ride on. The grade from Civic Center to Peachtree center is sorta steep but without railfan windows it's hard to tell. I give it a 3/10 on the excitement scale.
No railfan windows? Where were you?
In my post below, I linked a photo of mine at the railfan window at Midotwn, note the train in front.
It's OK - The last time I rode in was in 1993/4. Other systems seem to have their own flavor or character, but I didn't feel this in Atlanta. The trains (and stations) were very clean and it was a nice smooth ride. However, I came away feeling sort of indifferent.
Wayne
MARTA is one of my favorite systems. I often seek out the longest layover I can get when flying through Atlanta so I can have time to ride it. The trains are clean and attractive, as are the stations. Many have artwork, and the underground ones are expecially nice. Some of them are made of concrete poured in rough-hewn lumber forms, giving the concrete a wood-grain appearance. But the best station of the system is Peachtree Center, which is probably my favorite subway station in the entire world. 120 feet below downtown Atlanta, it is the steepest station in the system. Deep inside a layer of Georgia gneiss, the walls of the station are bare, unfinished rock, giving the station the feel of an undrground cavern. The station's ceiling is cathedral-like in its height, adding to its beauty.
In addtion, transit-oriented development is becoming part of the system with a TOD at Lindbergh Center. In short, it's well worth riding if you get a chance to visit Atlanta.
Mark
Sorry, that should say "deepest" instead of "steepest."
Mark
I’ve ridden it once or twice :-)
Considering the size of the system, it’s pretty decent to railfan. I think the strongest feature is the unique stations. Every station is different in layout and artwork, everything from concrete art to colorful mosaics. There are even nude women stone sculptures at Five Points. Even now for me, who has ridden it countless times, there is always some different station feature I haven’t seen before. For example, at Arts Center, there is some seemingly abstract carving along the trackside wall, and after seeing it hundreds of times, I only realized recently that it was a rendering of people waiting for a train at that station, complete with security cameras and exit signs! And there is the already mentioned Peachtree Center, which has exposed gneiss rock and you can see where they blasted it. The high arched ceiling makes for a dramatic look.
Some of the best views of the city can be seen on MARTA, the East Line between King Memorial and Georgia State (the best, IMO), at West End, and from the mezzanine of Lindbergh Center, are some examples. You can also ride past Avondale station on the East Line and get a great view of the subway yard as the line flies over it.
You can’t get right up to the front glass, but you can still look through railfan window. The cab glass isn’t tinted, so you can still see in the dark. The part I like the best is riding on the northbound stretch between Five Points and Peachtree Center, you can see the ONLY deep bored segment of the system. Just after that, they left the tunnel rock exposed, so it’s like riding through a cave.
Out of the three 70s subway systems, MARTA feels like the most conventional. BART went overboard with whiz-bang features (wide track gauge, third rail cutoff switches, slow manual operation, scarce standing room, distance fare, etc), WMATA became more conventional and the cars have the same layout as MARTA cars, but you have extra features like the blinking platform lights and the distance based fare. By the time MARTA was built, pretty much the ATO system was the only obvious feature that passengers saw that set it apart from the CTA, MBTA and NYCT. And you’ll see more T/Os operating manually here than you will riding on BART or WMATA.
It takes about four or so hours to ride the whole system, but it should be pretty enjoyable.
I have been riding on the MARTA system for several years. The entire system is bright and very colorful. The trains feel like they are floating on air when in motion. My favorite portion is the North Springs branch which runs in the median of GA highway 400.
It is a very small systems, but definately worth taking a day to enjoy it.
Do you live in Atlanta, or did you used to?
Actually, I live in Marietta, but I've used MARTA a few times. I probably should have mentioned that earlier.
I have relatives in Atlanta so I've been visiting anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months a year for the past thirty years.
Has this been reported before? I saw it real fast, it was about a football player who gives a man a bowl of chunky soup. Everybody gets off, except the happy man with his chunky soup!
Chuck Greene
Yeah, Michael Strahan of the NY Giants the Defensive End wearing #92 with a Granny or a Mommy giving a child a nice bowl of that hearty Chunky Soup. It looked like the scene was shot from the Grand Central Shuttle. Can anyone enlight on this subject? It was on an R62A with the 6 on its rollsigns though!
It looked to me a lot more like 33rd Street on the 6, but I'm not 100% sure.
Well, the train said "6" on the roll sign, but since I know better with the NYC subway stations...they were sitting at Grand Central on the shuttle platform...roflmao, what a joke! An R62A Lenox-fleet shuttle train with the roll signs saying (6)...oh, jeez!
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"It's really a shuttle train!"
>> ...they were sitting at Grand Central on the shuttle platform <<
On the other hand, the columns were signed "33rd Street".
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
No he's right, the station is definitely Grand Central on the Shuttle.
The decal on the door stated "Watch the Gap" - not standard for a #6 train.
Thanks, Train Dude. You are correct about the watch the gap signs.
The columns did say 33rd,also.
Chuck Greene
I thought by now someone would have posted something about this trip. For those who were there, I passed you twice today. The first time was as you left 36St/4Ave going SB over the West End, I pulled my N in across the platform. The second time, around 1400, you were entering 86 St going local over the Sea Beach, I was at the back end of the N relay trying to get into the yard.
Any idea who the blond guy hanging out the window (really far out the window) was? It looked like he was gonna take a fall at 86 St.
I think I know who you were talking about he was yelling at people to keep their heads and arms inside the train. I pointed out to my friend a few moments later that he was doing the same. Not many blonds on the trip thats for sure.
Was there anybody from this board there other than Mark W since I met him as a Subtalker on the trip? If you saw me I was teenager kid with a Canon E05 camera.
There were alot of teenagers with cameras on board. I was there, trading insults with Mark W. most of the trip. You couldn't have missed me...
just wished we went to metropolitan Ave.
I was up at the front where No.6 was, we had the door open,
and now I know how hot it must of felt when there was no A/C.
It sure was windy with the front door open, but it felt great
with the "Forced Air Ventilation".
Why didn't it go to Metropolitan? It was supposed to.
Because there were to many delays on the fan trip & it was getting late.
Also the MOD trip on 8/26/01 (d-types to the docks) went there, so it would have been a bit repitious unless we could have had a shot of the Triplex next to a 143.
Maybe next year they'll take the Triplex on the A line to Euclid and the yards there. We could look for the phantom station if a lunch break is planned there.
I hear it was beacuse there was only one 'M' train being used as a shuttle from Metopolitan to Myrtle (Which was a R-143). And to make things worse only one track was being used. So maybe not to tie up the road (Remember the Franklin Ave Shuttle lol)
Absolutely false. There was regular M shuttle service with 4 trains of 4 car R143's.
There was a bad order train at Metropolitan Ave, so only one pocket could be used. Had we gone there, we would have tied up the road.
Also, I did see an eight car train of R-42s pull into Bway / Myrtle besides the R-143 shuttles.
--Mark
Oh well. See what happens when you get (Unreliable) news from more than one source :p
Did the Steeplecab lead on the whole trip, or did it work out that the D types led half the time?
It led about 3/4 of the time.
I saw you guys going thought East New York Yard. I was tring to get the T/O or someone who had a radio with them to relay a massage to say hello to you guy. I heard you comming from Myrtie Ave When you guys made it into ENY and under the L platform, I was the T/O in the R42 L that was sitting on the stand at Broadway Junction. I told the T/O that they did A nice Paint Job on the Steeplecab, he said it was for sale. I told him that I had $0.50 in my pockit. He did not get back to me. I look like you huys had a great time.
Robert ):
With the exception of going into Coney Island Yard from the Sea Beach track out of Stillwell, and the initial run on the Culver -- the Steeplecab led the way...as far as I recall. Keep in mind I bailed out at Chambers Street (lunch stop, 3:00pm), so I don't know what transpired on the Eastern Division part of the trip.
We looped at ENYD so the Steeplecab could lead the whole way.
--Mark
You punked out on the Eastern division trip? How come they didn't interrupt television programming for a bulletin? That WOULD be news. Wha'happened? Couldn't manage to arrange for it to run on the Frankie? :)
MOOOO! NO, just had some chores to do and the weekend was almost totally gone since all day Saturday I sent slaving on an IRT car of note up at Branford....sheesh, the things a BMT guy does for the benefit of another division....I gets no repect, I tell ya...
Heh. Well, as another B division guy (who lived in the IRT borough) I gotta say Branford scored bigtime on 6688 for future purposes even if it isn't a real "redbird" ... that car will keep the place running for a good long time based on that little attraction. Sounds like Stef owes you some rag-packing time on some BMT equipment, no? :)
Without a doubt...Stef owes me BIG TIME! I've been keeping his gal in fine shape during his absence ;)
I tell ya, for what it is, 6688's in REMARKABLE condition for a 17. Everybody did a wonderful job on the restoration from what I've seen. But still, you know which one's MY favorite. :)
A '69 Chrysler 300??? ;) (Just busting)...I assume it's also Heypaul's favorite?
Give that Klysler a pair of traction motors and steel wheels and HyRail it, and I'll kiss its tailpipe. But less than that, I'll have to go for an Arnine with the controls in the CORRECT locations. :)
Sounds good to me!
You're SUCH a cheap date. Heh.
Damn Skippy!
"Skippy" has been escorted away to a secure, undisclosed location. We're safe. :)
He says I owe him for which I'll answer:
You have gratitude, which is all you're going to get {Grin}. I won't be in the Kiss My Ass club though.
I propose starting a new venture after 6688. Since we're SBK fans, what do you say we get Locomotive 4 out of the back, and give it a new lease on life? Hell, if the shop is giving 5002 TLC, we might as well do the same.....
-Stef
Hey Stef-----with all joking aside I think Doug's idea of getting 1227 ready for her centenial birthday party next year would make more sense at this point in time.
Hey Stef-----with all joking aside I think Doug's idea of getting 1227 ready for her centenial birthday party next year would make more sense at this point in time.
I know. There are many el cars that could certainly use some TLC. I'll know where I stand after I stop working on 6688. I'd still like to investigate other avenues though....
-Stef
Sounds great, Stef. As you know since you brought it up you will be appointed PROJECT LEADER El Supremo! :)
If the scope was to just "Stablize" SBK #4, that would let you be done with it in a short time & ready to start another, plus you will have protected her so that a bigger effort could be done in the future.
Sounds like a win win.
It's just one of the many things to do. Personally, my dream would be to make her run and operate my very first locomotive down the line. Never say never, because things can happen. Other things to do, would be to give the R-9 some light work on the exterior, clean up the interior, and give the Lo-V some TLC. It can all be done even if it's one person taking many months or years....
-Stef
Hell, I 'd make up a mini-box motor fan trip and tow an el car with passengers for the hell of it. Who says girls have all the fun?
While we're at it, we make arrangments for acquiring one of those D Types. Wall can do it...... LOL! I can dream! The Museum will be overrun with drooling foamers.
-Stef
When it comes to dreams, the historical value of that ratty old Belmont car would be worth it ... granted, I'm a Bronx boy. I grew to HATE the IRT for being a "whistle stop railroad" ... by the time you got to downtown, you could do the same time from freaking CROTON on the Hudson line if only the job paid enough to move to Westchester. :)
Face it, bro ... us Bronx boys get over by other people's fears. You're not fooling anyone. Heh. Wish there was room for a pair of WF's in BOTH old and new, fresh wood for the HiV, and a raft of other sweetnesses. Alas, we've gotta play the hand we were dealt. But if somehow I could find the money and the space, I'd paint 1689's ceiling and hotwire the stands. Heh.
Seriously though, it'd be a neat toy to have. And since MTH is doing this whole work train thing, how about an IND drill car and one of those cheesy toy GE motors that the NYCTA *dares* to call a (ahem, kaff) "locomotive?" Moo. :)
Aye! MTH's stuff is getting better. I'm a little nitpicky over small details, but there stuff is quite good. GE Locomotives anyone? SteepleCabs, YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Stef
A good mate for SBK #4 might be hopper #95. I would take the covers off or at least secure them in the up position & put seats in the wells that once contained the stations garbage. Why, cars that are just sitting in a barn or outside somewhere aren't of much value to the museum. At least I'm not one to acquire more and more stuff just to have one, so #95 has to earn her keep, this would do it while showcaseing a part of mass transit history, i.e. a MOW train.
388 388 388
LOL! LOL! LOL!
Seriously dude, who says 388 can't be made to roll again? 388 may have a better chance than 2775, but that's my opinion. If we could only get more barn space, it would help greatly.
Still, I like a BMT Lines Theme Train.
-Stef
Hmmmmm, a very interesting idea. If 388 needs a l-o-t of work to make it operational, the next best thing would be for it to be towed by something because structurally it ain't in to bad a shape.
Then again we could do the same with some of the wooden trailers, but then THEY aren't from SI.
Maybe some day if we can find a few more guys & gails out there that are willing to get dirty.
Talk to me this weekend. #4 is on my list of short-term
stabilization projects. Mechanically, it is basically not
going to happen within the limits of our current shop resources.
The locomotive was dead when it came up and it hasn't gotten
any better. While we're out there, 4280 needs a partial
re-roofing job and it would be nice to close up S-62.
We'll see what we can get done in the best way possible.
Again, never say never. You got to believe. One day, #4 might roll under her own power. You'd be pleasantly surprised even if it took an entire lifetime to make it happen.
-Stef
From a-far it looks like some of the brand new trap on 59 also needs attention.
I was there !
Bill "Newkirk"
Really I didn't see you?
>>Really I didn't see you?<<
I was selling my subway calendars.
Bill "Newkirk"
trevor logan was there ??
i thought i saw everybody !! ( oh well )
I was there.
Loved the open door on steeplecap end in Montague Tunnel.
I was there also (I made this one - a last-minute conflict caused me to miss the Memorial Day trip). It was, for the most part, enjoyable, but the 'sitting still' part is still a drag. I realize we have to run around a 'live' railroad but it still eats a lot of time.
I was talking to a couple of NYCT folks in our car who knew there would be problems given all the construction on the lines. Strangely, as we 'zipped' along the Sea Beach, we all wondered why the special didn't spend as much time on it as on Culver - just as many photo ops, etc (one problem could have been that NB W's were sharing the line with N's). Of course there is that unused center track...
I was surprised at the small size of the crowd compared to past trips. Our car (6019C) was fairly empty and remained that way even after we dropped the one unit at CI (we all thought we'd lose our luxury of space as the riders in the cut car moved into the others, but it didn't seem to happen). The story we heard on the dropped car was flat wheels. Of course, the NYCT folks were wondering if the steeplecab was dragging the D's and keeping the speed down (at least that was the popular theory!).
I would've liked to continue on the trip but time constraints made the 3 PM lunch stop the end of it for me. I continued on a couple of side trips of my own (finally got to ride R142's, see the 142A's and 143's, and view some station work at various places). I was happy to hear that I didn't miss a ride up Myrtle since that would have been what I would have stayed for...
Unused track on Sea beach?
Not with W's running express, which was the case.
Were they? I thought the posted GO's noted that northbound W's were using the N line and making all stops. I also recalled that one of the NYCT folks in our car said that we had managed to get in front of a W out of Coney and it was on our heels all the way to Pacific. ?
I have seen at least 12 W's going express before and after the trip, and N's were local at the same time.
A very thorough four page article starting on page 38, titled "New York's Transit Revival at Ground Zero"
Joseph Calisi discusses the options, and includes a large color shot of the removal of the PATH cars last February.
Seems like interesting reading for all SubTalkers. This issue may be on the newstands now, or will be shortly.
Glad you got yours... it's running late this month, I still haven't received my copy...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hope you get it soon.
I think you will find the article very interesting.
Showed up today... will read later tonight :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for mentioning it. Gotta go get me a copy.
--Mark
Didn't know about Calisi's article in RF&RR magazine. Funny, I ran into him on yesterday's Steeplecab/D-Type trip, but he didn't mention the mag piece.
Incredibly, he was wearing one of those 70's style fishnet shirts...not exactly a class act.
Karl: Thanks for the tip. I will pick it up.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I went on today's trip even though it was basically an errand day.
It was really a memorable ride to be in the car right behind ol' SBK Loco #6, and hearing her gearup with all the accompanying compressor noises, etc. Be-U-tilful! I had a ball!
The trip out of 36th was initially difficult as the Steeplecab had a time going through the switch just south of the station. We had to back in and then depart with greater momentum to get her past the interlocking.There was alot of bump-and-grind (the rail kind) before we finally got underway
The surprise for me was our stop at the lower-level of Ninth Avenue. That place looked like something out of a World War II drama...desolete and obviously unused for many, many years. I can remember back in my teens when the Culver Shuttle trains would terminate there and I'd have to go upstairs to catch a West End train. We did a layover at Ninth Avenue while awaiting road traffic to clear. Then we reboarded on the upper-level and headed out to Stillwell where a non-scheduled passenger drop-off was made.
We then entered Coney Island Yards, where we also dropped off the last D-type set as the brakes had a tendency to bind up. That led to an interesting photo-stop as we were on track 41 next to the collection of antique rapid transit equipment (Low-Vs, R1-9s, and the notorious "Money Train" movie car).
Then it was onto the Culver Line to Church Avenue. There a slight stopover was made before a move south for some run-by action where the Steeplecab was separated from the D-Type consist. At Avenue P the set was re-coupled and moved back through Coney Yards and onto the Sea Beach Line. Our next destination was Lunch at Chambers Street.
I had to bail out once we got to Chambers Street which occurred right about 3:00 p.m.
The other aspect of the trip was the pleasure in running into all of my fellow SubTalkers like Mark Feinman, Bill Newkirk, Allan Aron, and even Salaamallah. Also, I met Piggio (sp?) for the first time and another SubTalker from North Dakota (must've won the long-distance railfan award) who's name escapes me at the moment.
Mark W. was there doing his schtick, and former (?) SubTalker Trevor Logan was also on board with an entourage.
I'd like to give a congrats to Mike Hanna, his crew and also Bill Wall, and Tony "D-Types" Arenti for pulling off another great fan trip -- the likes of which we're not likely to see again!
(Pardon the long post!)
SubTalker from North Dakota who's name escapes me at the moment.
Elias? Or could there be two SubTalkers from North Dakota?
Elias indicated a while back that he would be in NYC on vacation and was planning to take the trip... chances are that's him (I wasn't on the trip myself so obviously I don't know for sure).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, it was Elias. Thanks, Bob...
BTW, I didn't see you there.
BTW, I didn't see you there.
No, I didn't make it. A tough choice was necessary, since my wife and I were babysitting our grandson from noon Saturday to noon Sunday. I chose quality time with Pete.
Sallam Allah would have won the long distance award, he came in from LA.
hello !
Sallam Allah would have won the long distance award, he came in from LA.
Did they use all 3 sets of triplexes (9 cars)?
Initially -- till we had to 'dump' the rear set...read the early part of my post...
Yup ... binding brakes = flat wheel.
--Mark
Which number unit was it?
I had a lot of fun.
The 9th Av lower level was an unexpected treat. I was only there once before when the Culver Shuttle ran.
For a while at the beginning it was like Steeplecab #6 was going to be the Little Engine that couldn't. But after a running start we were finally underway.
I was a pleasure finally meeting Salaam Allah. I think almost everyone (including myself) gave him a ribbing about having a permit.
Naturally he complained about the lack of RFW on the R143's (I would been disappointed if he hadn't).
To be honest after years of Nostolgia train trips, MOD trips, taking the trip for me was more for watching the faces of people on the platfrom as we go by or stop in a station for a photo shoot or pickups rather than for the equipment itself. I also love the unexpected changes to the itinerary.
Fantastic trip. Where else could you ride vintage equipment behind a 1921 steeplecab electric on an operating transit system in 2002? The highlight of the trip was being able to stand behind the open front door of the lead D-Type and listen to traction sounds of No. 6 as we headed west on the express track of the Broadway el and over the Willy B. Just great! Many thanks to all involved for their work in making this happen.
It must have been strange riding them with no motor sounds coming from the D types!
Funny you say that .... I was in the rear car and I DID hear the gear sounds. I thought the D-Types and the Steeplecab were MU'ed somehow.
--Mark
No, they 'faked' the MU by having both T/O's coordinate their braking and accelerating...similar to what we do up at Branford with the running of the trainset of the R-9 and the Low-V.
Are you saying that the D types were not actually being towed by the Steeplecab?
Yes, the D-Types were REALLY towed by #6 BUT only when we were rolling along on tangent track. Whenever we were coming out onto a structure from the subway (ascending grade), the TA crew certainly didn't want to tax the ol' gal's motors too much so they coordinated their asceleration and braking manevours so that both units were taking power and braking almost simultaneously.
Thanks for clearing that up!
The last fantrip that visited 9th Ave lower level was the "Farewell to the R-30 Fantrip". We did it again yesterday, a little over 9 years later. Believe it or not, the condition of the lower level changed very little in those 9 years.
The visit to the lower level was a great surprise!
--Mark
Continuing Doug's post we got back to Chambers Street at 2:50pm for bathroom and lunch breaks.
Reboarded at 4 PM and headed north over to the Willy B. Coming over the bridge, the smell from Peter Luger's Steakhouse was mmm-mmm-good. We picked up at Marcy and went out to Myrtle-Wyckoff where some got off for a photo-op. Some elderly lady got on with bags of groceries expecting to go to Met. Ave. We then went east on the middle track and waited for some traffic to pass. We had to switch onto the W/B track to enter the ENY Yards at Chauncy St. We did a loop around. Got shots of the 143's came back up and stopped at Bwy Junction and MW. Proceeded over WB to Essex where I bailed at about5:45. Caught an F to W4. Then an A to Penn to get the 6:14 to Ronkomkoma. Changed at Hicksville for a DM to Huntington. Boy those new Double Deckers are nice. Comfy seats, smooth ride and clean smelling air.
Then you didn't get out to Jamaica either?
It could have been the old issue of the axle load limit on the elevated portion above Fulton St.
Karl & Steve there was no JAM planned on the itinerary that was given out when the train was boarded in the AM.
Also since we didn't leave Chambers for the Eastern Division until 4 PM, JAM was out of the question because of time. In fact the Met Ave leg was eliminated due to time constraints.
["Changed at Hicksville for a DM to Huntington. Boy those new Double Deckers are nice."]
Triple decker if you count the level that the doors and bathrooms are on. Just like my split level house!
The only triple decker worth discussing here is a corned beef, pastrami and roast beef on rye at Golden's Deli in Staten Island.
Rye, schmye... I want mine on pumpernickel!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
the pre world war 2 sounds were so good to hear again !!
i heard the same sound on thge PE cars of the orange empire museum
in peris california!! per car 314 / 418 ....
i wonder what happend to ...............U know who !!!.....?
the pre world war 2 sounds were so good to hear again !!
i heard the same sound on the PE cars of the orange empire museum
in peris california!! per car 314 / 418 ....
i wonder what happend to ...............U know who !!!.....?
Well Doug, I made the mistake of thinking that because of the March of Dimes Trip that Branford would be really short of operators so I went out there. I realized how wrong I was as I drove up at about 10:40. There was no car in front which meant the 10:30 car was on its way to Short Beach but there were about 4 operators standing in front of Sprague Station. That means there was at least 5 Plus me!!! I only operated 2 round trips but rode as a passenger at least 3 round trips. Plus I saw the 2 films in the museum for the umpteenth time.
After closing George Baer to us to see 1602 which he and several others have been working on for over 7 years. He was really proud and the car was absolutely beautiful. It probably looked just as it did in 1911 when it was built for the Connecticut Company.
Anyone have ideas for how a new 2nd Ave subway should be built? Also, what letter should it be designated?
Check out:
www.mta.info/planning/sas
There's a ton of reading material there.
Also, add your name to this mailing list:
MTA New York City Transit
Second Avenue Subway Project
130 Livingston Street, 3rd Floor
Brooklyn NY 11201
A new brochure is out dated August 2002 (OK, it's a month old), entitled, "Second Avenue Subway Tunnel Construction Techniques."
Ask the agency to send you one and others as they come out.
Thanks for the info!
Interesting. I learned a lot from that site. Didn't know that the 2nd Ave Subway is so far forward. AEM7
I am surprised that the residents in the vicinity of 2nd Avenue & East 79th Street have not seemed to make a lot of noise for a station there. All the other lines do:
Lex: 77th St.
CPW: 81st St.
BWY: 79th St.
Separately, I hope a station at 116th is built; to not build it would certainly have at least the appearance of discrimination, given the low-income, nonwhite population there.
Also, I hope they spring for the Water Street option, while still allowing for an expansion to Brooklyn. The Nassau Street option runs the risk of congestion, even if there is room for additional capacity now.
That site on the second avenue subway has been up for at least a couple of months, and it hasn't been updated for a while. I think that the project is very much not a certainty.
What were they supposed to update you on in two months' time?
I took the 4:54 from LIC to Jamaica the other day. Along with a morning run it is the only passenger train that currently uses the LIRR trackage through Maspeth, Glendale, Richmond Hill etc. It's commonly called The Montauk Branch.
Why? after all, my train was going to Oyster Bay. Were those tracks part of a once exclusive run from LIC to Montauk?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes. Check out Bob Andersen's lirrhistory.com site. But HERE is some info on it.
Or will they be homes for Charlie the Tuna as well...?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think some of them have already been stripped and sent to 207th.
AFAIK one of the World Series pairs is already gone.
There was a rumor when these cars first came about (with the subway series design in 2000) that one car would be preserved in the museum upon retirement. But it could have been just that...a rumor. -Nick
I think 9713 is the most likely candidate. The front of 9713 is purple with the Mets' "NY" logo on it.
Chaohwa
Perhaps 9327 might had been saved since it's a single unit. Although I haven't seen it on the road lately.
Paul
Some have already been sent to the bottom of the sea. I have photos of them at 207 St, but they aren't online.
I thought one car was going to be saved ?
It'll be interesting to see what the TA will save. Also - I wonder if they would retain a 10-car train. With so many redbirds one has to believe that the TA has lots of options. I'd like to see an 8 or 10 car train of main line R-33 saved. I think the flushing R-33/36 look better, but IMHO mainline cars would serve as a better representative since they were all over. If the TA did save some flushings cars it would be great if they were restored to their original color scheme.
Just my thoughts.
Wayne
I like that.
How about a ten-car train dressed up this way:
At least one car in each scheme:
1) Redbird
2) 2000 World Series (Subway Series)
3) Great White Fleet (all white)
4) World's Fair Scheme
5) Bluebird style (I may have this wrong)
Yes, you have the Bluebird term mixed up. All I know is that term is used on one of the BMT's old rolling stock.
#5 is really #4. So toss #5 out.
Is an extension of this line possible?
yeah it is,but the fact that the TA has several other projects to deal with,an extention to Laguardia Airport is one of the furthest things on thier mind right now. Not to mention some airhead Astorian might make a compliant about just to get some attention.I say it can happen and WITHOUT anyone complaining.
Yes, it certainly is. The real question is: is an extension of the Astoria line the optimal solution?
Other solutions that people have proposed are a branch off of the Flushing line, and (my personal favorite) a second AirTrain system; running from Jamaica up to LaGuardia and then over to Astoria.
The main problem with an Astoria line connection is that there is substantial NIMBY objection. You might have to burry the line from Ditmars Blvd. on East until you're out of Astoria. You also have the problem of mixing airport circulation ridership and rapid-transit ridership. The subway is designed to accomplish one specific task, and shuttling passengers between terminals and parking doesn't necessarily fall under that design. This is why, even though AirTrain uses B Division dimensions, the design of the system is very different. Platforms ad trainsets are shorter, and cars have better accommodations for travelers. Finally, LaGuardia is Port Authority property, and this poses a conflict.
Yes, you lose the one seat ride with a LGA Airtrain (LGAirtran?), but I believe you have a more optimal system.
Matt
The subway is designed to accomplish one specific task,
Really? What is that one task?
To bring joy to the hearts of us railfans, of course :)
Seriously, we've discussed this before, and we disagree. I respect your opinion. I, however, believe that the basis of design for the subway is to: 1) shuttle large quantities of passengers, 2) carrying minimal posessions, 3a) from the outer regions to the central business districts, or 3b) from one central business district to another, 4) with rapid speed 5) in sake of comfort.
Any other purposes, such as reverse commuting, or taking club trash home to Williamsburg late at night, are merely incidental.
But I guess thats 5 1/2 purposes...
Matt
To bring joy to the hearts of us railfans, of course :)
I hope not.
Seriously, we've discussed this before, and we disagree. I respect your opinion. I, however, believe that the basis of design for the subway is to: 1) shuttle large quantities of passengers,
Then it should certainly serve major passenger generators, no?
2) carrying minimal posessions,
Most subway passengers aren't carrying much. A few are. I've checked Terry Kennedy's NYCRR scans and I don't see any reference to a per-person luggage limit. (But airlines do impose limits.)
3a) from the outer regions to the central business districts, or 3b) from one central business district to another,
I thought you were a supporter of the 2nd Avenue subway. Have you changed your mind? As proposed, it connects inner residential areas to the CBD.
4) with rapid speed
Most subway lines are locals.
5) in sake of comfort.
I don't generally find rush hour trains very comfortable...
Any other purposes, such as reverse commuting, or taking club trash home to Williamsburg late at night, are merely incidental.
...and here you seem to suggest that the TA not bother running service any other time of day. Off-peak and reverse-peak service costs money; its existence is quite deliberate.
...and here you seem to suggest that the TA not bother running service any other time of day. Off-peak and reverse-peak service costs money; its existence is quite deliberate.
These services support a lot of riders.
I agree. I'm not suggesting by any means that they be eliminated. To my mind, the subway system is a component of the city's basic transportation system. Transportation systems don't only carry people between home and work. While the subway isn't always the most appropriate form of transportation, it often is when one of the endpoints is a major trip generator, like an airport or a convention center.
How come there was never any direct subway service to LaGuardia or JFK constructed when the airports were being built? For example, at Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta, the MARTA station there was built in 1980, before MARTA service was expanded to the airport in 1988. This option would have made a lot more sense. (At least I think so.)
Compare the dates the subway lines were built to the dates the airports were built. That should answer a large part of your question.
I've argued in the past that the JFK AirTrain (at least the Howard Beach branch) would have been better off as an integrated part of the A train, with no required transfer at Howard Beach and no extra-hefty premium fare for a basic service. Search the archives if you're interested.
I think ideally the LIRR should have held onto the Rockaway branch and had a LIRR JFK Branch. The LIRR should have continued to run from Penn/Flatbush Terminal down the old Rockaway Branch with an extension to JFK at Howard Beach. It would have nothing to do with the old Jamaica Bay bridges that kept burning - the reason the sited for getting rid of it.
The subway could have still taken over what it did take over. The Rockaway branch is four tracks from the Liberty El to Howard Beach. The LIRR could have run down the middle, left the ROW somewhere around Howard Beach and went to the airport. The subway could have run similar to the way it does now on the outer tracks, never crossing paths with the LIRR or sharing tracks. (of course the Liberty El connction would have had to be engineered a bit differently, as the Manhattan bound "subway tracks" could not cross the LIRR tracks at that spot.) And of course the LIRR would have had to go over or under the Manhattan Bound subway track at Howard Beach. But that is just a bit of engineering that would have had to be done.
It's a real waste of infastructure that they didn't do it that way. The LIRR stations could have remained open at Metropolitan Ave (old LIRR Parkside station at Woodhaven/Metropolitan) with bus transfers there, and at Jamaica Ave/Woodhaven (at the site of the old LIRR Brooklyn Manor station) for transfers to the J and buses, and finally at Atlantic Avenue and Woodhaven.
There was everyone's "one seat ride" to the airport from midtown. And as much as I would like direct subway access (which could have been done in addition to the LIRR service anyway), it would have been easier to get on the LIRR would luggage etc, than the A train or something anyway. A commuter railroad is a bit more "luggage" freindly than the subway. And as for service on that line from Jamaica and points east, passengers would have had to transfered at Atlantic/Woodhaven (two abandoned stations that were in existence then) or they could have made some kind of physical track connection around there for direct service.
They didn't & the TA/Port Auth won't. Maybe it's a darn shame, but it's what has happened, so lets make the best of the JFK Air Train.
I don't mind the Airtrain, I was just speculating about what they should have done back in the late 50's. It's a fantasy line, not a knock on the current project, which I feel is not a bad idea/project. I still feel the LIRR to JFK would have been better, and would have been running all these years already. That doesn't mean the current Airtrain project couldn't have been built. It's a totally different type of project, and will be serving a totally different group of people than the LIRR service would have served anyway.
Understand your point, it happens to be mine too, it's only that this subject has been brought up many, many times before.
Aplogies if this question is redundant, but if the Rockaway Beach is simply an old abandoned rail line, why hasn't the city torn down all the various trestles along the route? With a few minor exceptions,isn't most of the right of way undeveloped? Perhaps there are future plans for this route that are being kept quiet until the proper time (money becomes available/political climate changes).
<< why hasn't the city torn down all the various trestles along the route? >>
In a word...money.
The line is for the most part completely intact. Aside from money, the other obstacle is politics. Maybe one day that will change.
It's funny though - I read somewhere once that the line is not "officially" abandoned (you would never know that by the condition of the line). That is the reason that the tracks, signals , third rail, etc were never removed. I believe that since the line was never officially abandoned, it's status is really "inactive".
Not that this really means anything, as I'd like to see anyone try to run a train through there.....
"Not that this really means anything, as I'd like to see anyone try to run a train through there..... "
There is a huge difference between a ROW still totally owned by one entity (preferably a public entity) and a ROW that has been sold off to multipe owners. Then again there is a huge difference if new buildings have been built in the ROW, which usually happens very soon after it is sold off.
If the public entity still owns the ROW, there is hope (though in many cases extremely slim). After all, the population mix could change with the new residents being far more pro-transit.
Once the ROW has new buildings, it's no more usable than any other route with buildings. There is a major outcry and a major expense to tearing them down.
I'd like to see anyone try to run a train through there..
I'd like to see anyone try to run a train through a tree!
lol. Yeah, not to easy.
"The line is for the most part completely intact. Aside from money, the other obstacle is politics. Maybe one day that will change. "
You have never seen the Rockaway Line, have you? Intact is not part of its descriptive vocabulary, though it is used by die-hard "choo-choo" fans who dream of resurrecting it.
It isn't productive even to think about it. Sell it off, develop it for bike trails, businesses, whatever, take the trestles down and be done with it. There are other routes and needs which require our attention.
Now, investing money improving the A train's Rockaway route would be a cost-effective endeavor (rehabilitating the line, rehabbing stations to a more modern standard with ADA compliance, and increasing operating speeds), and certainly welcomed by those who live there. Perhaps it could be extended further west along the Peninsula. Additionally, adding a second track along the Peninsula so customers can reach the LIRR Far Rockaway Line would be helpful.
There are so many other projects which are feasible and need money.
"You have never seen the Rockaway Line, have you?" As a matter of fact, I have. On several occasions I've had the opportunity to walk the line. (I work for the RR). What I meant by "intact" was, that the property thru which the line runs has not been developed to the extent that resurrection would be impossible. I don't believe for one second that the physical condition of the line is the reason we should give up any future rail plans for what I believe is an extremely valuable, future rail connection. I'm not thinking as a rail fan, I believe common sense dictates that a north/south right of way running from a direct connection to Penn Station (and eventually Grand Central), thru west/central and south Queens to a location along the west boundary of JFK, should not be dismissed as nothing more than a bike trail. I know the folks in Ozone Park have been screaming for improved service, including the resurrection of this line.
I see where you are coming from now (but I still think you are underestimating the cost and effort required).
I am not dismissing it as a mere bike trail. I said bike trails AND commercial development (mixture of greenway, parks, stores, businesses, housing etc.). And in it's current state, the Rockaway branch's debris is contributing nothing to either property values or the environment.
Ozone Park does deserve better service, but there are other ways of getting it that are less difficult. If we promise the neighborhood something, it needs to be a promise which can be fulfilled.
I understand, and respect your point of view, but I really can't see transforming a pre-existing, grade eliminated, intact right of way into more housing, businesses,etc., (the line already runs thru part of Forest Park, I believe), when a rail conversion would accomplish the necessary goal of a one seat ride to JFK from, (eventually) 2 midtown locations, as well as dramatically improve transit options for much of SW Queens. I think you hit the nail on the head at the end of your post when you used the term "difficult" to describe this project. We need to overcome the habit of giving in to an easy excuse and find ways of overcoming the obstacles that seem to inevitably stall, or postpone vital rail expansion in this region.
And I respect your view too.
AirTrain gives JFK the service it needs by bringing the airport to the train station. But I can see the LIRR serving southeastern Queens better with your idea.
If you can identify a group of locals who would support the train, a group of legislators to back them up and add money to the Capital Plan, then you've got something.
Can the line be "creeped?" Meaning: a short line extended from the Main Line south, serving a couple of stations, as a fiscally feasible demonstrator?
The problem is that the NIMBYS (and this is a major problem, with this line) are, I believe, close to the main line. It would be nice if you could start with four miles of line, say, and calm down NIMBYS by saying "See, it doesn't enter your neighborhood (yet)."
And in addition, the line would be serving an entire different set of people than the Airtrain does. It doesn't mean just because you have one you don't need, or can't have the other.
Agreed. In fact, I see the focus of a Rockaway Line as a neighborhood commuter line, not an airport line.
It could offer a reverse commute to people working at off-airport jobs, like warehouses, cargo businesses, etc. AirTrain does not serve those. And, of course, it would take people to jobs in Forest Hills, LIC, Manhattan.
Exactly. As good as the Aitrain will be, it will not provide local service for the people in between. Again the subway and or the LIRR could have been doing that for 30-40 years already!
An opportunitu that can be regained if the willingness prevails...
Re: Air Train. I just don't believe a 2 seat ride to JFK will make a dent in reducing traffic. Cabs may be slower and more expensive, but they're direct. At least Jamaica Station will get a facelift.
Re: Local and political support. You've said it all.
Re: Can the line be "creeped?" Good question. I wonder if opening the line to say Atlantic Ave. and providing convenient station locations would appease any of the NIMBY objections. A little noise in my backyard vs. a faster, more convenient commute. Interesting.
It is not possible to offer a one seat ride to every terminal, nor is it necessary.
In the airport, the whole one seat argument is nonsense, really. It was invented by NIMBYS and the airlines to prevent spending on the project. - look at MARTA in Atlanta, for instance. Train plus rail terminal circulator is all you need. Passengers are crawling all over MARTA to use it. And they use it even though the terminal circulator has no seats at all!
Actually, AirTrain is a one seat ride. Once you transfer to the AirTrain terminal, for all practical purposes you are at the airport. Ticket kiosks are coming, and baggage check services will follow.
Actually, the terminal circulator at Hartsfield Airport in Atlanta (where MARTA goes) has seats at the ends of each car (for elderly and disabled people).
Yes, true.
You're right, no one should give up the idea, especially if it could improve service. But let's look at reality, it won't happen anytime soon simply because the money is not there to go ahead with it fully. Think of the cost of removing the greenage that has overgrown the line now, added to the cost of new tracks, new signals, new electrical distribution sources, digging out and making a new flyover at Whitepot Junction, which is currently completely filled in, and especially new bridges, because most of the bridges date to the early 1900's (especially the steel structures in Rego Park), and the rest are in danger of falling apart and even coming down, especially in Ozone Park, where talk is in the works of tearing the bridge over 101st Avenue down because of it's crumbling condition, and having viewed the concrete portions of the right-of-way by Liberty Junction, observing the deep cracks, and even dislocation of parts of the structure, the structure would need to be seriously rebuilt in order to support trains running over them again. The cost is too great, and as has been stated, the NIMBY factor, are both the major nails in the coffin to keep this project buried away for quite a while longer. I agree with the idea 110%, giving I too am a rail employee and railfan, and I too have walked the line. Nothing regarding reconstruction is impossible, but the reality of the costs and NIMBY factors, the idea of the lines' resurrection will for the forseeable future be nothing more than a thought or idea.
Actually, taking that bridge down is a great idea. If it's a hazard, it needs to go. If a new line is established, a new bridge would be built there anyway.
"The line is for the most part completely intact.
You have never seen the Rockaway Line, have you? Intact is not part of its descriptive vocabulary
The ROW is mostly INTACT. I don't mean they can run trains on it. Obviously I do know the condition of the line, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the line is owned by the MTA. It's ownership in intact, the line is intact. It doesn't have anything to do with the condition of the line, which oviously is a forest.
It's more than just a forest. It's encroachment by a lot of people who will fight MTA in court if their stuff needs to be cleared (and we don't know whether MTA would win all those battles); it suffers from the threat of lawsuits because the ROW is within fifty feet of some houses (a major problem that the Van Wyck-based AirTrain never had); its elevated structures need to be completely rebuilt to be safe for use; and so on.
Since East Side Access is under construction, a usable Rockaway Line could provide service once the 63rd Street tube is open for business and takes pressure off the Penn Tubes.
One key is "usable" and another is "political mandate." The first is rather weak right now, and the second looks damn near impossible.
Let's put effort into things we can accomplish.
You are right about the political aspect of the whole situation.
As for the encroachement issues, yes there are some encroachements, and those people can claim "adverse posession",which I think is proven 20 years for publicly owned lands (10 for private land) of non-interrupted encroacment, openly and notoriously used. Even if they feel they can win that battle, which may or not be easy, there is still Eminent Domain, in which the state could take it back anyway.
I agree with you that the MTA has options. I'm not saying MTA would lose a priori. If it came to that, I would support MTA's moves. Some homeowners would lose their homes due to eminent domain.
But the reason I posted what I did is this: ESA and the second Av Subway can happen because MTA has a mandate to do them, funding, and wants to do them. A 7 extension to Javits would get done, too, in this context (given $$$, of course). No NIMBY is involved, which helps.
AirTrain got done because the PA was determined to do it, had $$$, and had all the political ducks lined up (and even got a little political help from certain advocates). No real NIMBY here, either, despite appearances (the airlines manufactured most of that).
But the Rockaway line is different. There's no money in the Capital Plan, and unlikely to be any in the next one. No politician has stepped forward to champion it, and the support of a few rail buffs who post here, by itself, is worthless. The Governor, State Assembly persons and Senators will not support it.
In its current state, the ROW helps no one, and in certain stretches, is basically blight, which is undesirable.
So you have to ask yourself - can we develop it, ever? Or maybe we should look for other means? If the former is true, then present a realistic, doable plan. If the latter is true, then rip out the tracks, take down the bridges and return the ROW to other uses.
You are right about the current projects being important.
My whole original post on this though had more to do with the past than the present. It was more of a knock agains what they did in the 60's when the line was originally abandoned. That is where the mistake was made by the LIRR. It should have been kept open. That is how I worded it in my original post on the subject.
I agree at this point trying to resurrect it is beating many horses to death, but the truth is that it was a major mistake to abandon it to begin with. The LIRR and subway could have used the line very efficiently (as in the original post) as a route to the airport for 30-40 years already.
Agreed.
So you support the 7 Extension, right Ron?
I need help though. Are you willing to post reason advocating the extension with good evidence supporting it? I'm losing a debate in some other forums....;-)
Forget it, since you already replied to this post in another thread. I posted this first not seeing the other thread. My fault.
For the same reason a lot of old trestle in Philly doesn't get torn down.
Agreed - had that been done originally.
Heathrow Airport in London has both commuter rail and subway service. While both services are utilized and appreciated, the commuter rail is viewed as more convenient.
"Heathrow Airport in London has both commuter rail and subway service. While both services are utilized and appreciated, the commuter rail is viewed as more convenient."
There is no unanimity on that point of view!
The situation at Heathrow is not unlike JFK in some ways, although LHR is 25 years or so ahead of JFK (8-) . The airport opened immediately post-WWII and at quite an early stage a bus service was put on from Hounslow West station (LHR's Howard Beach!). London Transport wanted to build the tube to the airport, but didn't get the funding until the 1970s; the Piccadilly line to LHR opened in 1977. (I was on the first public train in, along with several thousand others.) The 1973 stock, still used on the Piccadilly after refurbishment, had more luggage space in the doorways than earlier stock, in preparation for the airport service.
The British Airports Authority (London's PA, if you like) then decided it wanted something better, and paid for the construction of a branch line into the airport from the main line out of Paddington station. The Heathrow Express can be criticized on three grounds: the fare is inordinately high, since BAA wants to recoup its investment, and Travelcards (London's equivalent of NYC's Metrocard) are not valid on it - if you transfer to the tube at Paddington you have to pay a tube fare separately; it goes to Paddington, which is in the northwestern corner of central London, and thus it doesn't give a one-seat ride to most central London destinations; and it isn't very frequent, which partly nullifies the advantage of its speed (about 60 m.p.h. start to stop). It started at a 15 minutes frequency but has now been cut to 20 minutes because of the lack of track capacity on the approaches to Paddington, following the Ladbroke Grove crash and the signalling changes made after that. That said, they are nice, modern, comfortable trains designed for people with lots of luggage.
The tube is frequent (every 4-5 minutes or so), cheapish (well, no more expensive than the rest of the tube, anyway) with no need to re-book when you transfer, and it goes directly to most of the main hotel areas of central London. It is useful for airport workers (of whom there are about 50,000) and for passengers, a quite large proportion of whom use it. Its drawbacks are that it stops 20 times between LHR and central London and thus takes 45 minutes, it gets very crowded (not too much of a problem coming from the airport since the train starts there, but a big problem going to the airport), and despite the 1973 stock it isn't very luggage friendly. As for DDA (British ADA) compliance, forget it.
Nevertheless, I believe the majority of passengers prefer the tube to the Heathrow Express, finding the tube more convenient despite its drawbacks. If the Heathrow Express ever gets linked to the CrossRail (the proposed cross-London East-West express line like Paris's RER), it will become more useful because it will provide a one-seat ride to more places. But first the BAA would have to agree to link its baby into anything else!
Neither the tube nor the Heathrow Express is much use if you want to go north, south or west from the airport. There, the Jamaica Airtrain will have the edge -- transfer to the LIRR at Jamaica will get people to Long Island points east of JFK.
Fytton.
Interesting post - thank you.
Since the topic is on the LIRR Rockaway Branch, can't they bring back that line and somehow connect it to the old Bay Ridge line (NYCR ROW) make it two tracks, around 69th street and follow that up to LGA? Are they still using that line for freight?Did they ever have a plan to connect the two airports? When the airtrain is done, will they do something similar to LGA? Thanks!!!
Bay Ridge is still very actively used for freight, especially the northern end of it and where the interchange NYCRR comew from over the Hell Gate Bridge, so I don't really think they could take that line away from freight traffic as it is the only link Long Island has to bring in freight trains (without using floats).
The Rockaway branch is a dead issue. It is about as close to perfectly impossible to restore as any line we've ever discussed, and it would be very difficult to use without opening additional tunnel capacity to Manhattan, The latter is happening (East Side Access) but won't be ready for a number of years.
While it would be nice if the Rockaway branch were available, there are two reasons I don't think it would make a good basic airport service. First, it's not integrated into the subway system, and the fare would presumably be higher than the subway fare. Second, while it serves midtown Manhattan, it only serves one point in midtown Manhattan; people coming from elsewhere in midtown Manhattan (or the rest of the city) would have to take one or two subways just to get to Penn Station in the first place. An A train extension would be part of the subway system and would offer direct service to much of the city and single-transfer service (same-platform in many cases) to virtually all parts of the city served by the subway. Your suggestion would make a good premium service. (Think of the existing free shuttle bus and subway as the basic service and of the direct Manhattan buses as the premium services.) The AirTrain is a premium service; unfortunately, it's displacing the primary basic service and replacing it with nothing.
1) LIRR: Well, the Rockaway bbranch would have been integrated into the rest of the LIRR (making the airport accessible to the suburbanites. But that biases it against city riders, so your point is an excellent one. However, the best use of the Rockaway branch today is for bike trails and commercial development, not trains. Sorry.
2) Your valuation of the A train is a little too generous, though it is a real asset to JFK.
3) "The AirTrain is a premium service; unfortunately, it's displacing the primary basic service and replacing it with nothing. "
False and illogical (laughably absurd, actually). There was no "premium service" to displace, nor any realistic hope for one before. And AirTrain essentially brings the terminal to the train. Since AirTrain serves three subway lines and the LIRR, it serves the entire city and Long Island.
Atlanta's MARTA experience proves beyond any doubt that passengers do not consider a transfer from subway to terminal circulator to be a problem. (It is still a problem for you personally, but will not be for most other riders. Oh well) MARTA's train to the airport is packed full of people.
AirTrain offers a similar facility - and with ticketing and possibly baggage check-in to follow, will offer everything needed for good airport transit service. The airport terminal is no longer at the airport - it's at Howard Beach and at Jamaica Station. In future, it might be also be at Penn or some other place downtown. That's all you need.
Your fixation on one particular solution (an inferior and inadequate one at that, really) has closed your mind to many others.
I think that the Airtrain is a good addition to the regions needs. That doesn't mean that the direct LIRR and/or subway service to the airport would not have also been good for the transportation of the area, in addition to the Airtrain. I think all three would have served different people.
The direct Penn/Flatbush LIRR service would have served people in Manhattan that would not mind paying for a pemium service to the airport, or paying for a taxi to Penn, if they are not near Penn. The LIRR may be a little more "luggage-friendly" than the subway, and may be a bit faster, depending on where in Manhattan you are coming from.
The subway would have served people that don't mind cramming on the subway with their luggage, or business travellers, that may not have too much luggage, or airport workers that don't need luggage. It would also depend on the time of day, sometimes when the trains are not as crowded, luggage on the subway may not be as bad.
The Airtrain would attract eastern LIers who transfer at Jamaica (unless there would have been a Jamaica connection to the LIRR JFK Branch. This may have been possible to the LIRR Montauk Branch, where it crossed the Rockaway Branch, although that would have involved electrifcation of the Montauk branch through Richmond Hill to Forest Park.) Anyway, the Airtrain has the potential to connect LaGuardia to JFK, which would also be a great addition. The Airtrain does seem to be a more premium service also, like the LIRR, as mentioned. All three could have worked together though to provide the best transportation to the airport, as all three would seem to attract different riders.
The one fault I do see of the Airtrain is not the physical connection, but what David brought up. It will actually become more expensive for subway riders to use the Airtrain option than the current subway/bus Howard Beach connection now costs, and they will have no choice.
LIRR: Well, the Rockaway bbranch would have been integrated into the rest of the LIRR (making the airport accessible to the suburbanites. But that biases it against city riders, so your point is an excellent one.
I have nothing against suburbanites, but 90% of them have cars and few of them are in walking distance of a train station. The vast majority of them Nassau and Suffolk residents will use those cars to get to the airport no matter what rail connections are available. Less than 50% of city residents have cars, many city residents are in walking distance (even with luggage) of a subway station. Furthermore, by (perhaps) an accident of geography, JFK Airport is located in the City of New York, and, as a rule, all major passenger destinations in the City of New York are directly accessible by subway. (The only exceptions that come to mind are the two city airports and the Javits Center, which have all had subway extensions proposed.) No such general rule applies to the LIRR in any of the areas it serves. While direct LIRR service to JFK would certainly be nice, subway service is a basic necessity.
However, the best use of the Rockaway branch today is for bike trails and commercial development, not trains. Sorry.
Who are you apologizing to? I don't think the Rockaway branch makes sense for this purpose; that was my entire point in the article you responded to. OTOH, keeping it available for future rail use wouldn't be a bad idea, and I'm not sure what sort of commercial development you have in mind.
Your valuation of the A train is a little too generous, though it is a real asset to JFK.
In what way is it a little too generous? If the A train ran directly to JFK, people living and working in walking distance of 28 stations in Queens, Brooklyn, and Manhattan would have one-seat, one-fare access to the terminal, people living and working in walking distance of 68 additional stations in Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, and the Bronx would have indirect access to the terminal with only a single cross-platform transfer, and people living and working in walking distance of any other station in the system (aside from Park Place on the Franklin shuttle and 6-only stations, which have no direct connections to the A) would have indirect access to the terminal with a single walking transfer. (Passengers coming from the 6 or from Park Place would have to make one walking transfer and one cross-platform transfer.) I'm not being generous -- I'm just counting stations off the map.
False and illogical (laughably absurd, actually). There was no "premium service" to displace, nor any realistic hope for one before.
But there was a basic service that could have been left in place, namely the free shuttle bus connecting the subway to the terminals. Rubber tires are being replaced with steel wheels and even the passengers who were satisfied with the rubber tires are being asked to pay a hefty fare -- most likely over three times the fare they paid to get to Howard Beach from any other point in the city.
Staten Island has double-fare express buses to Manhattan. It also has a free ferry to Manhattan. For most passengers, the express bus is more convenient. Do you think it would be a good idea to cancel ferry service and force all passengers to use the express buses?
And AirTrain essentially brings the terminal to the train. Since AirTrain serves three subway lines and the LIRR, it serves the entire city and Long Island.
By that logic, I live in the Bronx as well as Manhattan, since I live above a subway line that goes to the Bronx.
Until airplanes land at Howard Beach and Jamaica, AirTrain doesn't bring the terminal to the train -- it offers a $5 fare and a transfer to get between the terminal and the train.
AirTrain directly serves three locations: JFK Airport, Howard Beach, and Jamaica. AirTrain has no cross-platform transfers with other lines. With a single walking transfer and an additional fare, AirTrain indirectly serves 74 subway stations and the LIRR system (except the Port Washington Branch). Access to the remainder of the subway system entails a second transfer.
Atlanta's MARTA experience proves beyond any doubt that passengers do not consider a transfer from subway to terminal circulator to be a problem. (It is still a problem for you personally, but will not be for most other riders. Oh well)
I've never been to Atlanta, but from what I've read, the North-South line has a station directly in an airport terminal, with no transfer or additional fare. Am I wrong?
MARTA's train to the airport is packed full of people.
That's because it goes to the airport.
AirTrain offers a similar facility - and with ticketing and possibly baggage check-in to follow, will offer everything needed for good airport transit service. The airport terminal is no longer at the airport - it's at Howard Beach and at Jamaica Station. In future, it might be also be at Penn or some other place downtown. That's all you need.
The primary function of an airport terminal is to provide access to airplanes. Do airplanes land at Howard Beach and Jamaica? If not, then Howard Beach and Jamaica are not airport terminals.
Your fixation on one particular solution (an inferior and inadequate one at that, really) has closed your mind to many others.
Please explain how, to the (prospective) passenger, an indirect walking transfer with an additional fare is superior to or more adequate than direct service with no additional fare.
Technically speaking, the subway does serve JFK, if the Howard Beach station is directly adjacent to Airport property. Of course, in practical terms, it doesn't mean much.
I agree with your comment re: subway service to JFK in this sense: When Idlewild was being redone to accept jet traffic (JFK has one of the longest sea-level jet runways in the world, at nearly 15,000 feet long), the TA should have received $$$ and a mandate to extend a subway line inbto the terminals - and when terminals were redone or newly built in the 1950's and 1960's, they should have been built together, in integrated fashion, with the new subway.
But what's past is past.
"How come there was never any direct subway service to LaGuardia or JFK constructed when the airports were being built?"
One must remember that pre-deregulation (1979-80ish), air travel was not something routinely done by the average person. People who flew frequently were rich or had deep expense accounts, while the average middle-class person flew infrequently if at all. In the 1960s, the term "jet set" for active rich people made perfect sense. The idea before deregulation that the same people who typically rode the subway (middle-middle class, lower-middle class, and working class) would also be flying would have been deemed absurd. This is all easy to forget when people as old as their early 40s have spent their entire adult lives under airline deregulation.
3a) from the outer regions to the central business districts, or 3b) from one central business district to another,...
I thought you were a supporter of the 2nd Avenue subway. Have you changed your mind? As proposed, it connects inner residential areas to the CBD.
You're not entirely clear here. I know you live on the other side of town (or something), but as proposed, the Second Avenue Subway (SAS) will run, in order from North to South, as proposed in Manhattan, from a residential area to a Central Business District (CBD), to another residential area, to another CBD. I'm sure you've read the proposals.
Why would I have changed my mind about how I feel regarding the SAS? Although it is a little more complex, going residential/ CBD/ residential/ CBD, the pattern is pretty much the same.
In fact, the pattern pretty much proves what I was trying to assert. You have the same fundamnetal outer(a/k/a residential) to inner(a/k/a CBD) pattern.
You don't see a line from the Bronx to Queens being built.
"4) with rapid speed"
"Most subway lines are locals."
Uh... okay ... but I think you are confused about the issue. Whether the train is local, express, super-express, or skip stop is irrelevant.
Even on a bad day, I could still get from East 86th (outer, residential region) to Midtown West (inner, CBD) during the morning rush (on local trains!) much, much, much faster than if I: a) drove, b) took a cab, c) walked, d) took busses. You live in The City (I think). You know this.
"5) in sake of comfort."
"I don't generally find rush hour trains very comfortable..."
If you did, I would think there is something seriously wrong with you. Perhaps I misspoke, though. To make it clearer to you, I should have said: "in exchange for comfort"
" I, however, believe that the basis of design for the subway is to: 1) shuttle large quantities of passengers,...
Then it should certainly serve major passenger generators, no?"
Read points number 3a and 3b. The basis of design is fivefold, but that doesn't mean each point is separate. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Large quantities of people go from New York (CBD) to Long Island (Residential) on Summer Fridays, but a subway line should be built.
I'd be hard pressed to describe the Upper East Side as outer.
Reverse commuting is actually very important in NY. Trains in such service carry a lot of people.
It used to be that PATH trains were nearly empty in the reverse-peak direction. Due to the increase in both living density and the relocation of jobs from New York and other places to the west bank of the Hudson, that is no longer true.
Is it possible to just have a second airtrain connect from Astoria Blvd in Queens to LaGuardia, mostly via the median of the Grand Central Pkwy? Does anyone know?
Here's another question, Does anyone want to see what happened to the Van Wyck on the Grand Central? The thought of it is chilling.
Oh, I don't know. I think the Van Wyck was pretty awful before and isn't any worse now.
Last time I checked, the traffic on the VanWyck was in deplorable shape before the construction, the situation didn't deteriorate during construction, and things haven't gotten any better after construction.
In fact, the DOT is generally lauded for their service advisories, and the AirTrain engineers complemented on the construction sequencing. The guideway looks nice too, and no ROW was lost.
Yes, there would be some headaches at night if a guideway should be placed on the Grand Central.
I would like to see a second AirTrain system continue up the VanWyck to LaGuardia, then over to Astoria. I realize that the flushing line elevated blocks the way, but in the scope of things, that isn't that great of an obstacle.
Matt
Yes, that's one possibility. I am very much in favor of using existing ROW where possible.
The Astoria elevated is West of the Hell Gate Bridge viaduct, so you may have some tricky construction sequencing and phasing. If this is something you should want to build, you would have to go way up, over the Hell Gate tracks. I don't think it is possible to go underneath them. You also have very little clearance on either side of the Grand Central for a station and such. Residences abut right up against the service roads.
However, if you make it up onto the Hell Gate Bridge along the Grand Central Parkway, that opens up a whole new realm of possibilities. There is a surpluss of capacity on the bridge, and one abandoned track (and maybe one service track) could be converted to AirTrain usage.
Matt
Based on visual observation, I believe it is possible for a rail line on the median on the Grand Central Pkwy. to fit under the Hell Gate viaduct where it crosses the parkway. The parkway is in an open cut, well below street level. A rail line would be sited at approximately street level. Since the streets fit under the viaduct, so will the rails.
Is is possible, BUT that doesn't mean it will happen.
Your forget the MTA is dealing with many other projects like the SAS, Manhattan Bridge, The Times Square Complex, Stillwell/CS Terminal, improving signaling, etc.
How come I saw R40 rinning on the locol Q on Saturday?is it being usual after 9/8?
R40's on the circle Q you will see from time to time like the W. Reason is that due to the track connection to CI yards from Brighton are severed due to the trackwork. So, anytime a B.O. R68 occurs, a slant is placed there. Don't worry, come 2004 the R68 surplus will be back when the B and D return to Brooklyn.
In addition, this weekend Slants were stored on the express tracks from just south of Sheepshead Bay through Brighton layup tracks.
When i was waiting on the uptown platform at times square. A slant R40 pulled in signed as W. I rode it to Astoria. Is this going to be common place? Slant 40s on the W on weekends? Btw it was all signed correctly even the side signs they didnt have the diamond W sign just the normal one.
I miss the slants on the West End. It's nice to hear they return every so often. At one time the B ran 100% slants on the West End el.
I remembered that was back in 1995.
I wouldn't be suprised to see them back on the B if the northern terminals between the B and C occur. Q used to have the R68A's supplimented by the R68's like now with the W before 9/8. I am sure that if the Q goes to Hillside (which might be a possibility), the West End will be all slants again.
I remember back in the early 80's the slants were on the Fulton St Express A line. Man I use to get real excited when I would meet my grandmother in Manhattan and we travel to Grant Ave. I tell you what when that train would leave Hoyt/Schemerhorn and Skip Lafayette Ave, Clinton & Washington and Franklin Ave, I swear it felt that train would get up to about 52 after Clinton/Washington going through Franklin and pullinto into Nostrand Ave. With all those timers in place now, you be lucky to get up to 40. Timers have killed the run between Bway ENY to Utica: Manhattan bound. That felt like about 60 with all the rocking.
Frank D
I was working at Euclid. One Jamaica assigned R32, north motor 3509, all other trains R46. One trainset comprised of 8 "A" cars.
Did you say 8 "A" units? What?!? How often do you get that set?
-Stef
8 car "A" consists are very rare!! Have you ever seen an AABA consist? I worked on one on the G, now that looked weird when I first saw it, much less worked it. When G.O.s are in effect, especially the craziness of this weekend, you can expect many surprises!!
The AB set 6206/07, were not on the F yesterday.
Back before the R46's were rebuilt the AABA was not so rear. I seen it in many setups. #1end and #2end is what I meen about 1-2 or 2-1. Exp. A1-2,A1-2,B1-2,A2-1 or A1-2,B1-2,A1-2,A2-1 and so on and so fourth. Dose andone remenber these days. I live on W8th in CI most of my life and watch the F all the time.
Robert
Many times I would see ABAA or AABA on the JFK Express, before the R46 were rebuilt. At the time the cars were 1200-series.
wayne
Back before the R46's were rebuilt the AABA was not so rear. I seen it in many setups. #1end and #2end is what I meen about 1-2 or 2-1. Exp. A1-2,A1-2,B1-2,A2-1 or A1-2,B1-2,A1-2,A2-1 and so on and so fourth. Dose anyone remenber these days. I live on W8th in CI most of my life and watch the F all the time.
Robert
Back before the R46's were rebuilt the AABA was not so rear. I seen it in many setups. #1end and #2end is what I meen about 1-2 or 2-1. Exp. A1-2,A1-2,B1-2,A2-1 or A1-2,B1-2,A1-2,A2-1 the best was all A car set up like this A1-2,A1-2,A1-2,A2-1, and so on and so fourth. Dose anyone remenber these days. I live on W8th in CI most of my life and watch the F all the time.
Robert
I don't know how I posted this three time, All I clicked on post was once after I added some more infomation to the first post.
Robert
What's really weird is when you're a passenger in the B car. You can see into the cab clearly!
First time I ever saw a solid train of A cars.
What's up guys, this is my first time on Subtalk.
1.What were the car #'s of the solid train of "A" cars?
2.Why did they put a full 8 car train of "A" cars?
Any info is appreciated.
Once upon a time, long long ago the mighty "G" was a daytime six car set. It was made up of a four car set of of ABBA & AA duce.
There was the rare "AB" duce. The possibility of getting all A set or the AB AA combo would give the railfan the opportunity to peek from the B end into the adjoining A Cab.
Is this what happened?
Avid
The railroad is not run for the pleasure of rail fans! You can still peak from the back end of car #6207 into the cab of another A car. The only difference is that 6207 is now hooked up to two more A cars rather than one ABBA set. Think about that!
I have a few Questions about the R110B:
(1)Since the R110B was made in 3-Car Sets, Why was the middle Trailer unpowered?
(2)How much Horsepower did each Traction motor produce?
(3)Why was this Car made in 67 ft. length instead of 60 or 75 ft.?
Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005
If you look up Bombardier Transportation's website, you will be directed to a public affairs office which can supply the official answers to your questions.
Reasons for including an unpowered trailer include:
-Reduced cost of trainset (fewer motors and controls per trainset) and lower power consumption;
-Company's determination that sufficient tractive effort and horsepower are achieved through the powered cars to move the train satisfactorily (this decision led to the R142's "B" cars' have only one powered truck)
Well... The 67 foot (instead of 75 feet) is ncessary for the trains to operate eastern part of the BMT.
Wayne
I don't think the R110B cars could operate around the Crescent St. curve anyways. Not sure why.
That discussion is going on in the "steerable trucks" thread. The 67 ft design was to allow it to run in the Eastern, but they missed the special truck design needed for that as well.
Strange. The standards used to run there.
Something to do with the R110B's trucks, not it's length.
Perhaps the R-110B trucks were too close to the car ends. The trucks on the BMT standards were set further away from the ends, ten feet from the truck center to the car end. The truck centers themselves were 47 feet apart.
I don't know the official reason the R110Bs were 67', but it's likely they were influenced by the known quantity of the 67' BMT Standards. The Eastern Division is still "sized" for those 67' foot cars,
Additionally, 67' is a good compromise between 60', whicg are kind of inefficient, and 75' cars, which are just a little too long for a lot of the right-of-way infrastructure.
Off the top of my head, 67' foot cars were used for the Broad Street Subway, Cambridge Subway and Staten Island Rapid Transit, in addition to the BMT.
I wonder why they finally settled on the 60 foot cars. Are the Eastern Division stations long enough to handle 8 67 foot cars, or would they have to run 7 car trains? That may be one of the reasons they have chosen 60 foot cars. There seems to be room at the ends of the M/J/L platforms. It's only about 56 feet more that they would have needed for 8 car 67 foot trains. There seems to be about 30 feet at each end when a train platforms at most of those stations. Are the Eastern Division's platforms 540 feet long?
60 foot cars are a legacy from the IND, which chose that length for their initial fleet and all subsequent equipment through the R42s. No other reason.
AFAIK all Eastern Division stations can still handle 8-car trains of 67 foot cars, although some of the station extensions were kind of tight.
I don't think Metropolitan Ave on the M, Rockaway Ave on the L, and all the rehabbed Fulton St. stations on the J could handle the '536 long 8 car trains of the Standard's length.
You are right about the Metro station on the M. The station fits the 480 feet of 60 foot cars snuggly, with no room to spare. It's not too bad though, they would only have to extend about 3 stations to run 8 car 67 foot trains on the Eastern division. BTW, they made the Fulton station smaller in the renovation? It must have fit the standards when they ran there years back.
They appear to be smaller. There isn't as much "extra platform" on Fulton St. as there are on Broadway or Jamaica Ave.
Read my post #388298
Got it. But if they really needed to run 8x67 all over the Eastern Division was Metropolitan they'd figure out a way to handle it.
They had to deal with much worse to make 600' platforms on the Brighton. Like Newkirk Avenue.
Metropolitan Ave, M line station: 480' foot trains, 480' platform. No room to expand.
That must have happened when they rebuilt the station after the fire in the 70's. The tower/crew quarters is in the way, and the switches are right behind that. When the old station was there, were the switches further back, or did the platforms extend into where the current fare control area is at that station. It must have been able to handle the longer trains when the standards were there.
On a regular basis, rush hour trains on what is now the L and M were six cars. The J ran right cars.
Story at:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nypath202932247sep20(0,7366575).story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dreddots%2Dheadlines
I am impatient. I want them to work faster. Open the station mid 2003, I say.
But the announcement of a Dec 2003 opening is still an improvement over 2004.
My suspicion is that they have made a decision to make it a permanent station, but don't want to admit that publicly yet (the director hinted that in a Times interview a few weeks ago).
It does just seem like a long time to build some track, platforms, and escalators. Presumably the rewiring of the tunnels uner the Hudson is not the limiting factor in the time schedule.
"My suspicion is that they have made a decision to make it a permanent station, but don't want to admit that publicly yet (the director hinted that in a Times interview a few weeks ago). "
Illogical and without factual basis. They have no reason to make a decision like that, especially with lots of federal recovery money available to create a new permanent terminal and transit mall.
"It does just seem like a long time to build some track, platforms, and escalators. Presumably the rewiring of the tunnels under the Hudson is not the limiting factor in the time schedule."
Your presumption is correct, though your post ignores very basic realities about Ground Zero. The rebuilding of the station really isn't about escalators - it's about completing a whole subset of debris clearing that was not part of the effort covered in so many newspaper articles; and recreating a public space that is safe for passengers to walk in. It's about a new foundation, new concrete roof, new everything.
Recall that the WTC station is in the WTC Ground Zero area. If I recall correctly, it is much deeper than the 1/9 station at Cortlandt Street. Can you imagine what is involved in putting a usable station back together there?
Tilt your head sideways and here is what it looks like so far:
Anybody want to guess, based on inside information or from the concrete dividers visible in the photo, how many tracks will be in the station?
---Brian
Thanks for posting that.
Looks like five tracks, jsut like before. They will probably use the existing trackbeds. From left to right you can see:
Track-Platform-Track|Track-Platform-Track|Track-Wall Platform
I was at ground-zero today for the first time since ........ Anyway, your photo does not show one of the most interesting features (to railfans) at the ground-zero site. To the right of your photo is the tunnel box for the #1/9 lines - below ground but exposed but just below it, protruding from the wall is something that looks like a huge water main that was snapped off. I asked some PATH officials about it. They told me that it was the remains of the original H & M Tube. Too bad I didn't have my camera and you didn't get a shot of it. Nice picture otherwise.
From June 30:
Is the round tunnel in the middle of the third photo the old H & M Tunnel that ended at Hudson Terminal?
Yes. That is the old tunnel. It looks small in the photo, but I guess that is because you have nothing to scale it to in the photo. At first I thought is was a sewer line or something! But it definitely is the old tunnel.
Someone should notify Joe Brennan. His site suggests that the whole old H & M tunnel was destroyed on 9/11 along with the old platform, a photo of which appears on his site.
The cast iron tunnels in the Hudson were damaged by flooding. They are still structurally sound, however.
But remain subject to specially built cars for clearance....trial of IRT type cars led to bashed in carbody platforms. The last trip I made was in Sabre Industries cars.
But you do have something to scale it to: directly above it is the IRT line, still under reconstruction (remember, those pictures are from June).
You are right about that in those photos. But the first photo I saw of the old tunnel (I think it may have been one of yours a few weeks ago here) was at a different angle, and it really looked like a little sewer line!
All:
Let's walk through this once again.
Hudson Terminal was closed in 1971, replaced by the new World Trade Center terminal. WTC had a depth of 82 feet. If I recall correctly Hudson Terminal's depth was 35 feet, with a steep climb at either end. The new tunnel headers for WTC were cut in to the south of the original tube (NY-bound) and to the north of the original tube (NJ-bound), as the new WTC was built with 8-car platforms (Hudson Terminal held 5). When the original tunnel connections were broken, connecting ramps were built from Liberty St. through the south perimeter to the NY-bound tube, and from the NJ-bound tube through the north perimeter to Vesey St. The terminal itself was reduced to a bare shell and some additional space excavated to form a large loading dock beneath the east plaza, adjacent to Church St. The former H & M tubes were used by delivery vehicles (limited size, of course), going one-way just as the PATH trains had once done.
Recall that during WTC construction, both H & M tubes were held aloft from the floor of the NEW terminal by temporary cribbing, and these portions were dismantled after 7/6/71. What you see is what was retained of the south tube for the access road. There is a similar tube fragment on the north side as well, which has been obstructed from view so far. Not having been below Ground Zero myself I cannot prove it, but I believe (thanks to a smidgen of help from the NY Times) that the loading dock/Hudson Terminal space does in fact survive beneath the former east plaza. Until recently, the PA was trying to determine the best use for the former H & M substation UNDER the old Hudson Terminal. There was a recent photo of a big, empty room with ratty porcelain tiling--H & M tiling!
NICE photo of the construction site. I'd agree--5 tracks, 3 platforms.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
How was the old terminal set up in terms of levels, and corridors?
How was the set up while the WTC was being built and the old terminal was still in use?
Hudson Terminal was accessed through the old building: In from the street, down a set of sloping stairs (think Grand Central), turn around, through fare control, and down another set of one of several conventional stairs to the appropriate platform (think Hoboken). There were five tracks surrounding four platforms (one track each side). Terminal area encompassed west side of Church St., from south curb of Fulton to north curb of Cortlandt Sts. Site bearing was approximately NNE (in line with Church St.), while the modern WTC site has a bearing of almost due N.
Hudson Terminal itself was demolished early in the WTC construction process, during 1966-67. Temporary passageways were set up to maintain access into the PATH terminal's entry mezzanine at the top of those sloping stairs. I have seen slides of the terminal itself dated April 1971 and it was tough to tell there was construction going on just yards away.
From a train rider's POV, there was also little hint that the H & M tubes were being excavated and exposed through the "bath tub" area. I've read the story about momentary panic on an inbound PATH train in 1968 when a worker opened an access door into the construction site on a bright, sunny day and flooded the dark tunnel with light. Some folks thought the tunnel had caved in. I guess people were more easily intimidated by their surroundings back then.
At any rate, the PATH terminal's construction was part of the overall site work. That is just one aspect in the long litany of Moses-inspired/Rockefeller-sponsored public projects of the 1950s and 1960s. Begun in 1966 with removal of the "Radio Row" neighborhood, slurry walls were poured on the perimeter to form the bath tub. The bathtub was excavated around the H & M tubes (1967) and they were supported across the site by temporary cribbing. The new PATH terminal was the first distinctive landmark laid on the floor of the site, and eventually was enclosed by the concourse, twin towers and plaza as work progressed.
Because the H & M tubes were self-enclosed iron rings, there was no direct "header" broken into the new WTC tunnel leads until late in the game. The new tunnels were constructed as part of the site's "box" and by the time the rings were broken to be linked with the new terminal, the site had long since been covered by building construction. All they did was remove a fairly short segment of tube on either side and add a header into the new leads. This was horizontally level, while the old tube continued its climb toward Church St. I've rerun a NJ-bound video taken in January 1993 several times, and once I learned what to look for it was obvious what had been done.
When severed, the original tubes were situated across either side of the new WTC mezzanine, and I believe dismantled as far as Greenwich St. to make way for Vault/Utility/Parking space. The unfortunate reclamation work in the past year bore this out because no tube remains were discovered west of the 1/9 IRT (Greenwich St.) tunnel. Bear in mind, however, that part of the north (outbound) tube may have survived beneath the complex. That was under 5 WTC, which had not been completely removed and might still be hiding behind a wall of scarred concrete. Submerging roadways were added into the tube remnants from Liberty and to Vesey St., as explained prior, and the terminal itself converted to a loading dock/utility area.
Three parts of the project (towers, concourse mall, PATH) proceeded simultaneously but were completed at different times. The new PATH terminal was ready first along with portions of the concourse (1971), then the North Tower (1972) and finally the South Tower (1974). As I recall,the last bits of the concourse were just coming to life the first time I went through there in 1977. That may have been more a result of economics than construction delays, however. The WTC was regarded for years as a sort of "white elephant" which didn't really come into its own until the 1980s office boom.
Put it this way, when the movie "Three Days of the Condor" was filmed in 1974, the production company had no trouble at all securing an empty floor in the brand-new South Tower to pose as a "CIA" Office.
This is a thumbnail history, much from prior reading and memory. There are books out there these days that might fill in some blanks too.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
George: Thats a great report. I was out of New York City (and the country) for most of that time period and was not very familiar will the consruction period.
Thanks
Larry, RedbirdR33
That 3rd photo is a gem. In fact all are great. Thanks
I have a lot of photos :) If you don't see something in my photo then you should go to my website and look for it there. I posted these links previously, but here they are again, for your viewing pleasure:
9/15/02 - http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains/sf19/sf19-01.html
From late June - http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains/911related.html
And of course the link to my website where all these photos and so much more are posted - http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains/
---Brian
Understand that PATH is using the oppurtunity to refurbish all of the downtown hudson tunnels, not just rebuild the station. Because the tubes have a limited entrance and exit capacity, there is no real way to rush the job.
Agreed. The post reflects my own wishful thinking.
Please e mail me I have a new computer and I lost your e mail address Bob
Hey Bob, looks as though we won't be able to meet next month unless you can stay an extra day on the 14th. Fred's joining us on a railfan romp that day.
Again, let me know where and when to meet you guys.
Depends on the day. Sunday Fred and I are getting together at his hotel, will let you know the time within the week. Probably around 10
I told Howard Fein to meet us at the main LIRR waiting area at Penn Station. It's at the 7th Ave. end by 33rd St. Use the subway entrance at 33rd. Go past the IRT 7th Ave. line, bear left and you'll see it.
BTW, Wayne (Mr. slant R-40) informed me he can't make it on Monday, so we agreed to meet on Tuesday the 15th. You are welcome to join us both days if you'd like. Come one, come all.
You are talking about Sunday?
You are talking about Sunday?
Nope. Monday and Tuesday.
Ditto. I will be there both days and will print your message so I don't screw up.
May I suggest that either Fred, Bob or Steve coor. the railfan trip off-line via e-mail. I've found if you first get a "core group" set with what & when you avoid this back & forth. Plus you avoid a lot of input/suggestions from folks who probably won't attend no matter what & when you do.
Once the core group has a date & itinery you can announce it so the rest of us can tag along. The main advantage is the trip happens.
Some of the Field Trips I've done included a couple of dozen, e.g. the next to last day of the Newark City Subway PCCs. Others have been the core groups plus just a couple more. I've enjoyed them all.
Since you were so kind as to give me that Mets hat that I still wear to the jeers of my fellow compatriots out here, I will take your suggestions under advisement. Sounds like a good idea to me. Thanks.
I bet it's the bright orange color of the hat vs. the logo, as I ware a 2000 Subway Series NYM/NYY one that's your basic black ... nobody notices.
And Fred does screw up, Fred E Mail me I am still having problems with your e mail address
We're meeting between 8 and 8:30 AM both days.
Not Sunday, it will have to be around 10.00AM
Monday and Tuesday, to be exact. I'll be in Branford by 10:00 on Sunday.
>>>"Monday and Tuesday, to be exact. I'll be in Branford by 10:00 on Sunday."<<<
I sure hope we'll be in Branford by 10:00 on Sunday, 13 October.
Then it's LIRR waiting room at Penn Station on Monday & Tuesday,
14th & 15th 8:00 to 8:30 AM.
I'm trying to catch up to all treads posted. Is this correct?
;| ) Sparky
Correct as you have it. The more, the merrier.
One more thing: that LIRR waiting area is at the eastern end of that long corridor which leads all the way to the 8th Ave. line. You can't miss it.
Maybe it will be easier to meet by the LIRR Ticket Windows
There is a Hudson newsstand across from that waiting area. As long as we're in that general area (ticket windows, near the corridor, etc.) we should be OK. I would suggest wearing something which will make it easy for us to recognize each other; i. e., baseball cap or jacket, subway-related shirt, etc. As long as it's not too cold, I will be wearing my Mets jacket and cap and either a Subway Series or A line tee shirt.
If you are coming on Monday, it'll be great to meet you.
To you Brighton Express Bob and all others. I goofed my E-Mail address by one letter. It's a new one and I just forgot. Here it is:
fperitore@altrionet.com
shows how much Smog Fred has been breathing since his retirement
But boy oh boy have I been having fun. Spent the weekend at my buddy's house in Carlsbad. Beautiful beaches, great restaurants and good fun.
I m jealous, I really miss the beachs, any beaches
With all that smog, no wonder he is so nostalgic about his train.
I'm surprised Fred hasn't taken a stab at that weekend GO which has the Q running through that rat-infested Montague St. tunnel.:)
Well if the Sea Beach has to run through that rat infested hole, then why not the Q? Turnabout is fair play they say, and, frankly, I'm getting a little tired of all those Brighton boys out there shedding crocodile tears because their poor little Quey has to join the rodents.
At least the Brighton runs 24/7
Yesterday at about 9:15 AM while on the way from JAM to Brooklyn for the MOD trip and we passed Dunton Yard. At the track closest to the train was yard engines # 102 & # 104 freshly painted in the grey and orange livery of the 60's. The words Long Island RR were in white. These engines had the curved roofs over the cabs. Anyone know why they were picked for this retro livery ?
Aren't they the pair that sit on a siding near Harold every rush hour, crewed, ready to yank any electric LIRR train out of an East River tunnel if needed? I think they've had that paint job for 8 or 10 years, a neat choice. I believe that the end couplers are M-1 style, and I think the job is called "Protect."
u are correct. i know the engineer who has the 530am-1030 am with those. those locomotives are called the SW1001s. i have ridden on them with my friend and they are great. they even have a M1 controller and coupler so when coupling to EMUs, u can release their brakes from your cab
Shows you how long its been since I've had to go into NYC on a weekday rush hour.
Lucky You.....LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
They have been in that scheme for about 10 years, unless they repainted them fresh again recently. But they were in that scheme at least 10 years already.
mp15 #167 (I think) is in the shop now getting some type of brand new paint scheme. there's more about it under lirr in the railroad.net forum
Last week SEPTA held a public meeting to discuss and get citizen feedback on, among other things, a plan to extend the Route 100 light rail line to King of Prussia. Does anyone know hwo the meeting went, what views were expressed, etc.? I wanted to go but had another meeting I had to go to that evening.
Mark
Sounds like a neat idea.
If I am not mistaken, the Schuylkill Valley Metro plan also includes service to King of Prussia. Route 100 would be cheaper, and perhaps more likely to get done first (??).
Why don't they get into the 21st Century and extend it to Chancellor of Germany instead?
Hardy har har.
You made a funny.
HEY GUYS. as u all know i work for MTA Metro North Railroad and i wanted to get you guys a final date. so i asked some of my friends and co workers and have found out the following:
CROTON HARMON OPEN HOUSE
DATE: OCTOBER 19, 2002
TIME: ITS USUALLY 11-3, BUT ITS 10-3 THIS YEAR. A EXTRA HOUR!!!!
COST: THE TRAVEL COST IS USUALLY A ROUND TRIP TO HARMON FOR THOSE WHO WILL TAKE THE TRAIN, AND THERE IS A DINER AT THE HARMON SHOP. I HAVE WORKED AT HARMON SEVERAL TIMES AND I WOULD STRONGLY RECOMMEND IT TO YOU ALL. SOME OF U HAVE EATEN THERE BEFORE. A GOOD 20 SHOULD COVER ALL COSTS. DONT FORGET UR FILM RAILFANS! THEY WILL DO WHAT THEY USUALLY DO! OPEN THE SHOPS, ALLOW KIDDIES TO SIT IN A SLEEPING GENESIS LOCOMOTIVE
AS FAR AS TRAVELING GOES,
TAKING HARMON LOCAL TRAINS THAT TERMINATE AT HARMON MIGHT GET U A RAILFAN WINDOW IF THE CONDUCTOR DOESNT SELECT THE HEAD MARRIED PAIR FOR DEADHEADS. CAUSE IF HE DOES, THAT MEANS ITS FOR US MNR EMPLOYEES ONLY. OR IF U CATCH A TRAIN BOUND FOR POUGHKEEPSIE, DONT COUNT ON A RAILFAN WINDOW UNLESS U WORK FOR METRO NORTH AND U CAN RIDE IN THE GENESIS CAB WHICH I HAVE DONE.
HOPE TO SEE U ALL THERE! I WILL PROBABLY BE WEARING MY METRO NORTH REFLECTORIZED VEST SO U WILL KNOW ITS ME
Glad to hear your employment situation worked out. Can you share with us what position you now have?
i am now a Custodian. i work the overnight shift at Grand Central. i like it soo far. i even make MORE than i did as a Trackworker, and Custodians DO NOT GET FURLOUGHED.
Glad to hear it, I was always partial to overnight shifts; but I have not had the chance to work them too often.
Piggo
Yipee!!!! I should be wearing my black #1 Uptown and Bronx cap with possibly my orange Nike sweatshirt (sort of Halloweenish looking) and black jeans if anyone bumps into me and my wife. Time to get my camera rolling. Hope that MN decides to put a displaced LIRR locomotive like 302 there for picture taking.
This kind of snuck up on me ...
Friday was the last day of service on the eastern Boonton Line. That means that Benson St, Rowe St, and Arlington stations are now abandoned.
It's gonna be wierd not having the trains passing through Rowe St in the morning and during the evening, hearing their horns every time they pass, or catching a glimpse of one crossing the tressle over Belleville Av or Broad St.
So the Montclair Connection service started today, but Midtown Direct won't happen for another week. In the interim, the trains will only go to Hoboken.
Help?
Can I get to JFK from Penn Station via the subway?
Does the A or C run all the way there or what station must I exit?
The information you need is on the MTA web site: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/airport.htm
John
thanks john
Take the A train that is marked "Far Rockaway" to Howard Beach. At Howard Beach you will have to go upstairs and then over to the uptown side to get to the bus to the airport. There are plenty of signs at that station.
Do not take the A train marked "Lefferts Blvd".
From 34 St/8 Ave take the Brooklyn bound A train maked "ROCKAWAYS" to Howard Beach Station. Then follow the crowd with back packs and suitcases going to the airport. Make sure the train says ROCKAWAY on it. The other A train will say LEFFERTS on it.
you can take a Far Rockaway "A" train to Howard Beach then take the free shuttle bus but there are 2 buses,one takes you to the terminal you want,the other wont.Or you can take a Lefferts Blvd "A" to the last stop Lefferts Blvd and take the Q10 bus which takes you all over the airport.Option3: is take the F train to 179th St. and take the Q3 bus to the airport. Option4: 3 train to New Lots Ave then JFK bound B15 bus.
Can anyone assist with my question on getting to JFK?
(see posting below)
thanks
This saturday afternoon I was riding SEPTA's route 101 trolley and I saw someone filming the trolley with a hand-held camcorder, leaning against a black car parked near the tracks. I'm curious if I was captured on video by a fellow subtalker.
Mark
Yesterday I was pumping gas into my Jeep at self-service station on Santa Fe Drive. It affords a nice view of light rail trains gliding by. Since we had two sporting events going on at the same time (Broncos and Rockies), C trains were running all the way to Mineral Ave. and were three cars each. Anyway, I'm pumping away and the next thing I know, a single car cruises by headed northbound. I wasn't sure it was marked "Not in Service", since single-car trains normally don't run anymore, although I have seen them during peak hours. Two minutes later, a n/b four-car train went by! Alas, it was signed "Out of Service". I knew they didn't run four-car trains in revenue service because the stations are currently too short. Chances are it was a deadhead move back to the yard, and since a five-car train will start tripping circuit breakers, they ran one single plus two two-car trains lashed together. Too bad I didn't have my camera with me. That train wasn't doing 55; 40-45 was more like it.
It was on this date on 1967 that I became an A fan for life. At the same time, I developed a strong dislike for the E which remains with me to this day. Seeing "8th Ave. Express" on that R-1/9 E train that morning, only to stop at 23rd St. was enough to set it all off. Having to endure cruel and unusual punishment by riding out to Brooklyn on BMT standards didn't make things any better. That afternoon, I rode on the R-16s for the first time. They were still clean, wearing their original olive drab, and had straight door pockets. The $64,000 question was, what's a 15?
The crowning event took place as we headed back to Port Authority. At W. 4th St., we were looking for an A train, but were on the lower level platform and saw one D train after another go by. Finally a gentleman directed us to the upper level, and a few minutes later an A train pulled in. When we reached 23rd St., I noticed the I-beams on either side of us and knew we wouldn't be stopping even though those R-10s were doing only 10-15 mph. The fact that THIS was a real 8th Ave. express was all I needed to know. My allegiance to the A was forged in steel that day and remains as strong as ever 35 years later. After that, nothing but an A train would do along 8th Ave.
The $64,000 question was, what's a 15?
Gee Steve, everyone in my generation knows that's a Jamaica train!
I know that now, but didn't back then. I had gotten used to seeing letter markings on IND and BMT trains by then, so seeing that 15 marking threw me for a loop. I do remember seeing the "15-Jamaica Local" side route signs on those R-16s.
You should have seen everyone when they first started using 15 about 1955. We used to watch for two green marker lights in the old days!
I think you mentioned once that everyone thought the 15 was a new route designation in 1955 even though it had been adopted 30 years before along with the rest of the BMT number code. You're right about the marker lights: before the days of bulkhead signs, they were the means of identifying a train. I personally never paid any attention to them, much to my regret.
Well,it's official.The new station is now open to the public.... went there today,and I must say ,it's very nice. It has quite a few levels that were closed off, and an extra inbound track space at the platform[where the local track would be for us subway folk.Channel 6 news was there asking many questions,such as why is the new station in Renn. insted of Downtown Albany where it should be? Ahhh...life is good...
Yeah, caught the Joey babbling about "it's a good thing" ... they even dragged Albany mayor Jennings across the river and he didn't look particularly amused either. I was rather surprised though that there was no mention of yesterday's adventures for the "customers" on the first inbound - the escalator broke and the automatic doors trapped a few geese. Not a WORD about any of it other than channel 10 last night.
But yep, it's a lovely guilded sausage plant. Wonder if there'll be any festivities for the bulldozing of the Amshak? :)
Yeah,you caught that''ahh.. life is good.. '' line didnt you? I knew you would if anybody did!!! I checked it out ,found a few friends working there ,too. Hah!
Yeah, "spot the gasbag" is a spectator sport 'round here. :)
I was waiting with baited breath to find out exactly how Senator Hairball was going to spin his own little debacle. A lot of arses were put on the line to save his. But Albany mayor JENNINGS showing up was the real corker. Did you see his face? His reaction of disgust? His "where do I crumple this ribbon and toss it?" Heh. Love to watch politicos squirm.
Okay, so far this year has gone by quick and we still have another year to go be4 2004 arrive. I assumed there will be an anouncement about the reopening N.S. (Northside) MannyB first thing after 2004 New Year. Now in terms of car assignment for Manny B line, I assumed R68 will dominate D B N. What I'm not sure is which car type will be dominating Q. Help fill me on this guys thanks!
R68! The N will be going to Astoria, so that would be slants to which they are assigned to now. The B as mentioned might only be running to 168th St. again, so that might cause the remaining slants to go back to the B. The Q might be a third line going to Hillside/179th St., so with a longer run, R68 or R68A will dominate the Q.
Any guesses as what the W will be left with if it remains after construction?
The B as mentioned might only be running to 168th St. again...The Q might be a third line going to Hillside/179th St
Please provide the complete URLs to either published newspaper reports or discussion documents on the MTA website that substantiate these. The only references I've seen to these are subtalker speculation on here.
Considering that the TA hasn't even decided on what routes will run and where they will go, isn't it a bit premature to be posting car assignments?
We have over 15 months, not "a year," before 2004 begins, and I haven't heard an announcement that the north side tracks will open on January 1.
I guess I was just too over excited about what will happen in 2004.
Here is the CTA's map of the proposed Circle Line.
http://www.transitchicago.com/news/newspostdescs/120700.gif
I know the Circle Line proposal was discussed here earlier to some degree, but this map includes realignment of existing routes that wasn't in the newspaper coverage of the story.
My thoughts:
(1) Having the Cermak branch (now part of Blue) become part of the Brown Line and running the Brown and Orange between Kimball and the Loop makes a LOT of sense.
(a) When you see the weekend operation of the Blue Line now (Cermak Branch closed weekends for reconstruction), you realize the mismatch of having the busy O'Hare branch split into the busy Congress branch and the not-so-busy Cermak branch. It doesn't make sense to split the O'Hare trains evenly between the two branches, but giving the Congress branch the lion's share would mean not enough trains on the Cermak branch to mean viable rapid transit (IMHO, at least four an hour except in the wee hours of the morning).
(b) The proposal for years has been to through-route the Orange and Brown, but that would also be a serious mismatch. The Brown runs a multiple of the number of trains the Orange runs. But having two routes serve the busy Loop-to-Kimball route means that the present number of Brown trains can be split among two lighter traffic lines (the "Cermak" Brown and the existing Orange).
(c) The Green Line easily has the capacity to carry the Cermak trains between the Loop and the Paulina Connector. And the Paulina Connector is existing track -- double-tracking a one-track L isn't cheap, but it's cheaper than building from scratch. Other than the Connector improvements, the new Brown Line would use all-existing trackage.
(d) The proposed treatment of the Orange and Brown Lines makes sense totally independent of the Circle Line proposal, to the degree that IMHO it justifies the needed Paulina Connector improvements all by itself. That indeed may be why the CTA has tentatively scheduled the Connector work as the first stage of the process.
(2) Is there enough capacity on the old State Street Subway to handle the Red, Purple expresses, AND the new Circle line as is suggested? Perhaps there is, but it seems a bit tight to me. It seems to me that the Orange and new Brown wouldn't carry many more trains than the present Brown, so the Orange, Brown, and Purple expresses SHOULD be able to cohabit the Armitage-Loop tracks, leaving the subway to the Red and the Circle Line only.
(3) Assuming the Circle Line itself is built (that is, assuming the two brand-new stretches of L and subway are funded and built), the Metra-L connection stations are a great idea. The three that would have to be built from scratch are on busy seven-day Metra routes. The Ashland/Archer stop would be on the weekday-only, 3 trains daily only, Heritage Corridor, but the Orange Line station there already exists and the Circle Line would have to hook up with the Orange Line somewhere anyway.
1. Re double track Paulina NOW, and reconnect to the Milw Ave structure as well as take it over to the North-South (Red, etc._ AND I would connect it such that as a first stage Paulina connector trains could
A. run North from the connection to the Ravenswood/Evanston Line.
B. Be able to run a Midway-O'Hare route bypassig the Loop entirely once the Orange to Paulina Segment is built.
What I believe, is that once some new travel options begin to exist the travel patterns/development options will change.
(old timers will recall CTA dreamt of a Western Ave Crosstown L in the 50's)
At the same time these routes are constructed, CTA/Metra need to breakdown the "class barriers" between the parts of the ststem.
Example, as the Metrocard now allows the marketing of passes, multiride tickets etc, its time to redbuild the Metra Electric to be Metrocard accessible for use within the CTA service area at no extra charge. The same should become feasible on the Rock Island, North Western, lines.
A few things come to mind:
1) North & Clybourn would be a major transfer station with five services (two above and three below). Just a few years ago, that area was almost an urban wasteland, and North & Clybourn was downgraded to only part-time subway service.
2) Lake and Wells on the "L" would see another major reconstruction, and would become half a grand union if not more. What a sight that would be during rush hours! I agree that two services are enough for the State Street subway; there's room for more on the "L".
3) Douglas/Cermak service to the Loop via Lake Street would revive a service that existed during construction of the Congress expressway. I assume the structure still exists on Paulina; reinstalling a second track wouldn't be a major project. Too bad that the old Met "L" structure between Lake and Milwaukee Avenue wasn't saved.
Whats up guys I'm a newcomer on subtalk.
This 2/5 G.O. coming up is going to be crazy. If its going to be more crazy than last weekend's shuttle bus on the F is anybody's guess since the 2/5 shuttle bus is running from 149 St/Grand Conc. to E 180 St.I might ride it on its first weekend to see how its going to turn out. I have a few questions about the G.O.
1.What are they doing that the G.O. is on every weekend from this Saturday to October 28?
2. Will there be a express shuttle bus that goes from 149 St. to E 180 St making no stops in between? If so, will they ACTUALLY run an exp. shuttle bus UNLIKE the F last weekend, in which there was none.
This is how the MTA is they make promises to the people but dont keep them.
Any info is appreciated. Thanx
There will be an express shuttle bus running...
The stops for the local:
149-Grand Concourse
3 Avenue-149 Street
Jackson Av
Prospect Ave
Intervale Avenue
Simpson St
Freemam St
E 174 Street
W Farms Sq-E Tremont Ave
E 180 Street
The stops for the express:
149-Grand Concourse
3 Avenue-149 Street
E 180 Street
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Oh, jeez, another 2/5 line G.O.!"
my guess to whats going on is replacements of all the signals on the WPR line.And I think that there will be NO express shuttle bus.they never did it before even though they said so so why would this time be any different?
There will be an express shuttle bus UNTIL all the people that can't read start yelling that "YOU SKIPPED MY STOP"
The TA did this once before and the express buses did run. They entire the Sheridan Expressway until it merges with the Bruckner, stays on the Bruckner until it becomes the Degan Expressway and exits at 149th Street (right by the 145th Street bridge). Then it makes a right on 149th and a left on G.C.
Now that the #1 is back on its original route down to the Battery does that mean the #3 is back to New Lots? I'm here in California and have no access to the new subway maps, which should be good for at least one month.
Of course. All of the 7th Avenue Lines are back to their originsl pre-9/11 routes so the 3 back to going to New Lots.
and the #4 train runs to New Lots overnight!
They always did, even during the past year.
sometimes the #5 (and even the #2) runs there as well
I'm here in California and have no access to the new subway maps, which should be good for at least one month.
When all else fails, click here.
The #3 is now going to New Lots Avenue once again.
#3 West End Jeff
The #3 is now going to New Lots Avenue once again.
#3 West End Jeff
So, what is it?
The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3
Beat Street, ...Pelham 123, Money Train, The Warriors, Dreams Don't Die, and The French Connection.
Sorry, I have too many favorites.
Money Train was awesome and the subway scene in Die Hard With a Vengeance was cool. However I never saw Pelham 123 (way before my time).
You're missing out. Don't fall for the 98 remake. If you have a DVD, order it from www.cdnow.com. If you have VHS, Blockbuster Video or any other video store can order it for you. It may run $10 for the video, $15 for the DVD, but it's worth it.
Definitely the Taking of Pelham 1-2-3. Money Train would be the runner-up. -Nick
My personal favorites are a couple of real low-budget flicks, You Can't Get There From Here and You REALLY Can't Get There From Here, from Feinman Studios.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Money Train is definitely my least favorite. What a bomb!
MOEBIUS
se imdb.com for details
Argentine film done by film school students in the Buenos Aires tunnels. Stunning train footage and a fairly okay plot.
limited distribution--but if you get a chance, check it out.
The original Pelham 1-2-3, of course.
The French Connection ranks up there as well.
My favorite is Amelie with shots of elvated portions of the Paris Metro, the Paris RER commuter trains, and even a TGV locomotive. But I'm not sure if it tops my list for the trains or because it's the first movie my fiance and I saw on our first date.
:)
Mark
"Who wants to know!!!??"
"Me, the supervisor of Grand Central Tower wants to know!":)
"Well, forwards is better than backwards!!"
Go fish it out, willya. The turtle's behind the board
The hell with you, I'm climbing on board!
Actually, he was referring to the toilet behind the board. Mrs. Jenkins had dropped her wedding ring down it.
"Oh, come on. If I gotta watch my language just because they let a few broads in, I'm gonna quit. How the hell can you run a goddamn railroad without swearing?!?"
I know that. But thanks for checking it out though.
"He stopped again! The crazy dumb ass son of a bitch stopped again"
Oh, come on. If I've got to watch my language just because they let a few broads in, I'm going to quit. How the hell can you run a goddamn railroad without swearing?
A mental case. I'm gonna nail his pecker to the goddam wall.
Well maybe his radio's busted. The sonovabitch is too lazy to climb down and use a telephone, I'm gonna write him up for this, goddammit, I'm gonna have his ass.
Plumber: How come that gate ain't locked?
Caz Dolowicz: Who's gonna steal a subway train?
Whoops. :)
A mental case. I'm gonna nail his pecker to the goddam wall.
Well maybe his radio's busted. The sonovabitch is too lazy to climb down and use a telephone, I'm gonna write him up for this, goddammit, I'm gonna have his ass.
Who's gonna steal a subway train.
"You're like the Captain Of The Ship...you're supposed to go down with it!" "I wouldn't go down there if I was you!"
"I know you wouldn't!"
Isn't 'The French Connection' The one where an uncle and his niece meet up due to their psychic abilities and it turns out that the uncle actually murders several of his fiancees (or wives, I can't remember) and it all ends on that train scene. Also, the film was in black and white. Is that the movie everyone is talking about>
Not forgetting, who was the director?? His name is on the back of my head, but oohhh!!
THE FRENCH CONNECTION
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks for correcting me. I was obviously thinking of something completely different.
After a recent, long and contested thread, I needed to post this story URL:
http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/20900p-19859c.html
When we went into the ENY yards we passed many of the new 143's. All of them had AMERICAN FLAGS on the front under the MTA symbol...Old Glory sure looked good against the black backgrond.
Heads up guys. Something I found over at Rider Diaries caught my eye. Sorry, but I dunno how to conver the link. Do you think this is laughable or what?
http://www.straphangers.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=002012
What's so laughable about it? Playing in a softball game and socializing with others instead of nomadically riding the trains by oneself would probably be a miraculous change of pace for some SubTalkers.
I have to say, while I personally do not prefer the Rider Diaries format; the posters there are very sociable.
what is wrong with their format, too many forums?
Not that. I like being able to click on a specific part of a thread like on SubTalk as opposed to having to scroll all the way down.
It's the same as having a preference for Coke or Pepsi. You'll drink them both, but you'll usually like one more than the other.
So "sociable" they can't bear to show their face
to tell us SubTALKers about their little "makeshift"
sandbox softball league via post---rather they have
the "will one of you post this on SubTALK" slacker
claiming they know hella well not to set foot in OUR board.
Tho it states "the SubTALK challenge would then be made
official".... how can the challenge be ours if none of
us even SUGGESTED it!!
With swingers like BMTMan and Bill Newkirk and
SelkirkTMO and Grounded Shoe Beam and Mark W.
and Thurston and Mark S. Feinman on our side,
we boyz be hammin' it up bigtime~~ just too bad
we're already too good for them to come
tell us about this little gimmick of theirs..
Just plain Taaaaarrible, boys.
Hay, this writer has been getting in shape a little playing baseball with his grandson ... he's on a Fall little league team.
I'll volunteer to Manage. The used to call me "Sparky" Andersen when I managed a team for Met Life about 25 years ago!
Could be fun. The main problem is getting a group that can reasonably be expected to play ball, i.e. we're all over the tri-state area.
Bob & I are Long Islanders, so getting to the Bronx, or Brooklyn wouldn't be easy, then it's getting dark earlier & earlier.
Me, I get off at 3 PM, but I'll bet I'm an exception.
Depending on the day, I get off as early as 1224 and as late as 1600 - but you wouldn't want me on a ball team.
Now, now Mr. T... apparently we misunderstood...
the term "swinger" in my lingus meant "mean mack daddy
capable of jetting the leather sphere far, very far!"
You pre-qualified, Sir.
Thanks for the big smile that just came to my lips this AM !
Dag! You're a cheap date. :)
Why my, my my... Aren't we having the little attitude. While I am indeed a straphanger, I would enjoy the competition. So let me be the one who crosses over to officially CHALLENGE Subtalk/Bustalk to a Softball game. And as for you, why don't you come to our board to officially accept. I'm not here to cause trouble, because we can all co-exist. I have no problem w/ Subtalk. It just so happens I was lookin for a new forum to post on to change the monotony, but it seems YOU South Ferry do have beef w/ us. So lets just do the damn thing and stop whinin and show ya baseball/softball gangsta and accept.
Uh oh. South Ferry, look what you caused....There's a ruckus building up from one of the poster's, some person named 'GreatOne'.
Simply follow the thread I provided in the first post and see how this has developed...
Sign me up! I can (or at one time could) throw a pretty mean underhand curveball!
Nonsense...I just said that if people thought of this as a joke. That was my interpretation, OK?
Why not 2 hand touch football? Or Basketball? It's the season for both of those sports and the more people that join in with football, the merrier. Softball should be saved for the Spring/Summer.
It also depends on when. For me I work 9-6 Monday-Friday and for me to make this would be a toughie.
If it's on a weekend-count me in. Otherwise I must pass.
#1979 3 7 Ave Express
Let's have BusFan as the QB and follo as the RB. LMAO!
It's BusTalk vs New England Patriots-;)
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
Heh, a NEW meaning to "Subway Series" ....
--Mark
Hay Mark that give me a thought ... hats with Opr logos ... we ought to get some second looks with those !
Im in!!!!!!!!!!!! HOw about it's SUBTALK vs. BUSTALK vs. RIDER'S FORUM. A 3-way tournament. I say, a Saturday tournament. HOw about Marine Park in Brooklyn?
TRK wil be there!!!!!!
Why don't you like the Rider Diaries? Everyone respects each other and their NICE to me. Their like a close knit family...
i forgotto mention A FRENDLY tournamet.I dont hte em. I dont hate.Period. I love everyne
you forgot about nycrail as well, make it a 4 way
I'll do it, but only if I can play the position of 'fat guy drinks all the beer'
-Hank :)
How about a three way tournament as seen on the LIRR recently instead of softball? :-)
I don't think there's enough women on these boards to satisfy us heterosexuals!
Then we can make it "bring your own bag" every guy can bring his own two girls, and maybe we can all chip in for Qtraindash7 :-)
While reading posts and learning as I go along, it's understandable that it costs money to run trains. It even costs money on sections of track that are not used in revenue service, especially the Chrystie Street connector between Broadway-Lafayette and Essex Street. Since restarting K service will not happen, what is the possibility of running Z trains through the connector and run them up to 145 Street or 168 Street. I know train traffic is hectic in that area, but maybe, B service can be eliminated in favor of Z trains running up to 145, 168 or Bedford Park even. It would be a decent run and finally utilize a tunnel that can be useful. I know you can transfer at Delancey Street to Essex or catch an E to Sutphin and also catch a J/Z train but who would want to go to all the trouble of having to make transfers? Maybe some Bronx, Harlem, and Washington Heights residents would like to get to Eastern Division stations without having to make a lot of transfers. Weekdays and Rush Hour service would be sufficient for this. Weekend service is not neccesary for this. D trains can run local along Central Park West. What do you think?
Z trains run only for about an hour during morning and evening rush hours. Z service can be extended so that it can run during the day and on weekends. It could replace the B train. But I don't know if there would be a need for people in upper Manhattan to go out to Broadway-Junction. Maybe you have something there.
Thankfully, one realizes that operating trains cost money.
Your idea also has merit. There appears to be some demand for a direct rush hour 6th Av-Bway Bklyn service as the passenger traffic through Essex St would attest to.
But only for rush hours. It would be nothing but an empty train during any other times.
Well, during non-rush hours, the K Train could run from 145th Street to Second Avenue. But, replacing the B and the Z with the K would only work until we get the full Manhattan Bridge back.
I have tried to figure out 2004 service with Christie/Essex in use, but not without sacrificing future V service to Brooklyn. I just cannot match up services.
North: 1) Washington Heights Express (A); 2) Washington Heights Local (C); 3) Concourse Express (D); 4) Concourse Local (B); 5 & 6) Queens Boulevald Express (E & F); 7 & 8) Queens Boulevard Local (R & V); 9) Astoria (N); and 10) 57th Street & 7th (future 2nd Avenue LOL) (Q).
South: 1) Brighton Express (Q); 2) Brighton Local (D); 3) West End (B); 4) Sea Beach (N); 5) Bay Ridge 6) Fulton Express (A); 7) Fulton Local (C); 8) WTC (E); 9) Culver Local (V); 10) Culver Express (F); and 11) Broadway Brooklyn (K)
Any suggestions? The only one I can think of is a third Queens Boulevard local with one running to 179th and the other two to 71 Avenue. I would be inclined to send the 8 car K to Concourse local and the B to Queens.
The service pattern I tossed out was for the current service patterns now in effect. Once full Manny B service resumes, this service will need some tweeking with. Rush hour service for this proposed Z service might be enough instead of a full weekdays only schedule. But just possibly, B and D trains may be the only trains to cover the North Side of the Manny B. Q trains might remain on Broadway. The only line interrupting the flexibility of this service is the V train. Maybe the pattern can be like this. D runs to 205, Norwood, B runs to 71-Continental via 63 St, F runs to 179, Jamaica via 53 St, Z train runs to 145 St or Bedford Park Blvd via Central Park West Express. D trains make CPW local stops with C train. No need for V train here. Z service can run the weekdays only run with good planning. By keeping Z trains on a part time schedule instead of rush hours only, Jamaica service will be somewhat faster during the day. But alas, this costs money, which the MTA will not want to spend. But if you pester them enough, they will eventually give in. Another addition is that Q trains can run to Astoria, replacing the "dubya" train. That is of course, when Manny B is fully restored. I look forward to seeing this.
Bklyn
It's really a shame that the MTA decided not put swipe exits into effect. They could of gotten so much information about riding habits. Where people get on and when, where people get off and when.
This would make decisions about routing so much easier.
Opinions ??????
perhaps you should experience waiting in line as swipe fare gates malfunction/reject insufficient (distance)fares hling up exiting passengers in AM rush at a busy station.
The same info should be inferrable from the next entry on each multiuse card since each has a unique "serial" While this is certainly less accurate than total tracking, I am not thrilled by having my exact travel patterns a
"public" record.
1 - Washington does it
2 - PATCO does it
3 - I'm sure there are others
perhaps you should experience waiting in line as swipe fare gates malfunction/reject insufficient (distance)fares hling up exiting passengers in AM rush at a busy station.
I'm not suggesting multiple fares.
The same info should be inferrable from the next entry on each multiuse card since each has a unique "serial" While this is certainly less accurate than total tracking, I am not thrilled by having my exact travel patterns a
"public" record.
A lot of people will transfer to a bus (information lost).
A lot of people will not get on at the exit stop (information lost).
Only if you pay buy credit/debit card (or railroad monthly) could your travel habits be known. Pay cash and you are unknown.
The other questions are where to turn it, where are the layups and putins and who shops it.
This is worth at least one F rush hour train set in trade too
The morning rush at Delancey-Essex from JMZ transfer to F uptown can get really demently crowded thanks to the always late, uptown, morning F. I remember when the F would finally come, there would always be 2 trains behind it, so that the first two were packed solid and the last one empty. Meanwhile the Brooklyn bound trains would zoom be, seemingly on time. A K train during rush sounds like a good idea to me.
While in Coney Island yard with he D-Types I noticed there was a set of R-68's set up as an 'A' Train. Anybody know how often that thing gets on the road? It had destination signs to Far Rockaway.
Probably for the cameras only. Any pics on this rare find?
I have three really good pics...if you want to see them, I can e-mail them to you...
Carlton
carlwal@hotmail.com
Cleanairbus
Carlton,
Please, email these photos to myself as well, at italianguyinsi@aol.com
Thanks!
Me too! Neil Feldman (NNEILEF@AOL.COM)
same here please
jchydra915@nyc.rr.com
Could you please email me those pictures kthcllr@aol.com
They are being used for a move shoot on the F line.
Robert
Please e-mail to thanks. jcappu98@aol.com
Me please!
h_szablicki@yahoo.com
I would love to see those pics!! Just click my Handle Above for my E-mail Address.
-AcelaExpress2005
I heard that the reason why they had that R68A signed for "A" was because they were shooting a movie with that train. I photographed that same R68A signed "A" while we were on the yard loop on the fan trip.
Why would they need a special train to shoot a movie? Was it because they wanted a roll sign instead of a digital one? -Nick
I mentioned this a while ago, but anyways. The train was used at the Church Av Coney Island bound express tracks about 1-2 weeks ago for a movie shot. It was signed as an "A" running from "207 Street" to "Far Rockaway via JFK Airport." Haven't seen it in Church for a week now.
No R68 runs on the A, now or ever. It's probably a train set up for a film shoot at Church Ave (F).
it is, ive seen them filming
it is, ive seen them shooting, nothin really much, just a couple sittin in the train talkin
btw church ave is my home station,
Hollywood filmmakers use the subway system and it's enviorns quite often in making movies.... That R68 with A signs could have been requested by a film maker..... On a 4 car unit of R46's sighted Sunday, every fiberglass end and barrier spring were freshly painted bright silver (sorry no #'s). Very well was used for a movie shooting..... This morning at 40th or 46th St. on line 7, a movie crew was on the Main St. bound platform filming...... Streets along Broadway in Williamsburg are also used quite often with passing trains and train rumblings in the background. Last night at an out of business C-Town at Union Ave./Broadway, the store was "converted" to a "Bey Food" with weekly special signs in the windows. The store had a controlled fire for filming purposes with the J trains rumbling overhead as the burn was in progress, smoke and all.
>>>That R68 with A signs could have been requested by a film maker...
It was requested by Woody Allen.
Peace,
ANDEE
Alot of films alter stations/trains quite a bit:
In Ridgewood, when they filmed "Malcom X" at Myrtle-Wyckoff the movie company painted the Canopies of the Wyckoff Station a leight beige just for the movie! Well the station was painted a bright pink/purple at the time, and the movie was to be set at that spot when "Malcolm X" was a teenager in Boston (I'm sure they didn't have purple stations then). They even had an SBK engine pulling a train labeled as "Boston Elevated Railway" moving back and forth. I have photos of it. Actually the station remained beige after the movie was done being filmed (well it was an improvement).
When they filmed "Brighton Beach Memoirs" at the Seneca Ave station on the M, they painted the canopies, and the exterior of the station. Well it was 1985, and the station was covered with grafitti, so that to was an improvement. It had to be done, as the station is visable in many scenes, and even in the mezzanine, and there was no grafitti in the 1930's , the time the movie was set in. Actually, a bit of trivia, anyone that knows the Seneca Ave Station, there is a painted "ad" on the side of a building at the Seneca Station for "Planter's Peanuts". Well that was actually painted on the side of the building in 1985 by the movie company! It remains to this day (with grafitti added), and is also visable in a few scenes in the movie. Movie companies do leave their mark.
The person pictured in the Planters Peanuts ad at Seneca Ave. was Ronald Reagan, the president to be.
That's pretty cool - a bit more trivia! (I didn't pick up on that - well it's pretty neat, especially because he was still president in 1985.
Anyone know of any other stations where the "movie company left their mark"?
Actually, another M line station - it seems like every one of them had a movie filmed at it - Forest Ave had "A Stranger Among Us" filmed at it. It starred Melanie Griffith, and Michael J, Fox's wife (Tracy something). It was set in Williamsburg, and they made all the buildings around Forest Ave Station have Hebrew Signs. They really did a good job on it. They did not try to cover up the actual location though. During one scene, Melanie yells to a cop, "Meet me at the corner of Forest and Putnam Avenues!" (which of course is in Ridgewood at the Forest station - not Williamsburg where the movie was "set". They did not cover up or change the actual street signs in the movie. They even cleaned up and painted an old mansion that was being used as a knitting mill at the time, at the corner of Forest and Putnam and made that into a "Synagague" which had a big place in the movie. (That's probably the last time that building was painted - although I think it is actually some kind of a church now.
I often wondered how old that mansion on Forest and Putnam was. Do you have any information on that?
No, wish I did, I was always interested in that myself. When I was a kid it was always a wreck. I remember walking past and seeing it being used as a knitting mill. It sat abandoned for a while, was cleaned up nicely and landscaped when they filmed the movie there, and now is some kind of Eastern European church or something. I wish I knew the original history on it.
There is a scene in Fatty Arbuckle's 1933 "Buzzin' Around" where you see the Avenue M station on the Brighton line in the background.
Class of '44 features a mezzanine supposedly on the Sea Beach line restored to appear as it would have in 1944. They say that older folks who remembered that era felt uneasy walking through that station, as though they had stepped into a twilight zone.
That must have been pretty weird, especially for people that didn't realize they were filming a movie there at the time.
Regular customers who were too young to remember that time period shrugged off the appointments. I still wish they could have filmed Benji boarding a train instead of having him just say goodbye to Hermie and Oscy as he enters the paid fare zone. It also would have been nice to have had people on that Triplex train instead of it being empty as it cruised by for the cameras.
Going back from GWB, at around 4:30pm I got down to a packed 175th street platform. A mob of people had just gotten off a northbound train. An R44 A train signed for Rockaway Park went through light (no pax) blowing it's horn. Right behind it was an already packed R38 A train, TO fAR Rock. I nudged on over to the window as this woman had her back to the window. If she's not using it, I'll nudge my way in.
It was a slow ride to 145th, lots of congestion ahead. By 125th things got jam packed, I decided to get off at 59th street for a B or D to 42nd and the 7 (it's better than dealing with that long corridor). When we get to 59 st, I head toward the doors, where I see the largest example of rude riders. Two women, with baby carriages are BLOCKING THE DOOR! The whole train is yelling at them to move, because nobody can get off and nobody can get on. One finally does and I nudged my way out, I wanted outta that sardine can! After I got out I saw the lights of that B train we passed around 110th street. But the packed A finally pulled out, and there was a D right behind it. I got on the D since it went first, as the B had come congestion ahead of it (from a C). I'm assuming if they do arrive at the same time, they give the D priority.
The 7 train OTOH was quite OK both ways. Going I had an R62A with no railfan window on either end, and going back from 5th I was lucky enough to grab the railfan window on a redbird.
But I never saw the A as bad I saw it today. Something must've gone wrong.
A trains to Far Rockaway enter service at 59-CC.
What?! You better get your facts straight, ALL A trains run from 207 to Far Rockaway, Lefferts Blvd, or a special few to Rockaway Park. There are light trains that go to specific points and start out, but WHAT are you talking about?
Sorry, I meant Rockaway Park, I typed Far Rockaway.
There are no scheduled runs from Rockaway Park to 207th Street as far as I know. In the AMs, they pull out at Dyckman and in the PMs, run light to 59-CC and start picking up passengers there.
Softball would do you a world of good.
Back when I lived on the D line... If the S/B made it to 72nd Street before the S/B came along and passed it. The B would get priority over the D even if the D made it to the platform at 59th Street first. I don't know if this is still the case.
Wayne
Hey, Wayne,
Find the old version yet? Still using 7?
I was actually doing some work - when I decided to drop in at BT/ST and forgot about that crazy Netscape 7. It's outta here.
Wayne
Well, thats rush hours. 4 5 6 are the same and much worst when it comes rush hour. I've seen riders being squashed at the door.
Baby Strollers are one of my favorite sites on a crowded rush hour train. Nothing like them to completely block access to the doors. I believe the bus system bans them during rush hour or at least makes you fold them up and hold the child. That would be great idea for the subway.
Hey, I just want to ask you a few questions, the answers can be answered however you want. They can be as short or as long as you want, you can chose to explain or not. You can respond to peoples answers if you wish to enquire some more answers. I want to compare peoples opinions from both subtalk and riders diares, and from each individual.
What Station to you feel Needs to be Repaired the most?
What Line do you need the most improvement?
What borough needs a line more importantly?
What line do you line needs the most imporvement?
Where should the New Subway Yard Be Built?
What Project are you willing to submit to a fare hike for?
What line would you like to see the stations repaired for?
What line would you like to see have a full express service?
What line do you feel needs to be removed from the system?
4th one is void
1. Chambers Street on the J, M, and Z.
2. Poor Sea Beach Fred's Sea Beach Line. Most stations on this line needs repairs.
3. Staten Island. If one of the 4th Ave (Brooklyn) trains could connect through a cross-Narrows tunnel with Grasmere, it would make life for Staten Islanders a little better.
4. Void
5. Never really thought of new subway yards.
6. I would support a fare hike for a completed 2nd Ave Subway Line with express and local service. If they could connect that to a new Third Ave subway and a Lafayette Ave (Bronx) line, as envisioned in the 1929 plan (or something close to that), I honestly wouldn't mind if they raised fairs by as much as one dollar.
7. See 2.
8. The Jamaica Line without a doubt. This line would be so much better if it had a REAL express run.
9. I think that every line in the system serves a purpose, though the Jamaica Line as it is now is closest to being useless.
1) 191 Street on the 1 that station is way beyond disrepair,And with the # of passengers there I am suprised it wasnt taken care of yet.
2)The J and Z without a doubt that is the MTA 's neglected step child,always the worst equipment and the slowest crawl.What I dont understand is Crescent st Curve,Its a full 5 minutes couldnt they do something to speed it up?
3)Manhattan 2nd Ave.
5)Sunnyside yard Queens they can keep the N ,E,F,G,V,R,and#7
6)Staten Island connection
7)Jerome Ave Line in the Bronx Some of those 4 stations at night are Scary.
8)L needs some express help or skip stop 80% of passengers going end to end.
9)G
What Station to you feel Needs to be Repaired the most?
J M Z Chamber Street Station
E V Lexington Ave/53rd st Station
Delancy Street F Platform Area
J M Bowery Street Station
What Line do you need the most improvement?
Sea Beach N Line-The N has been neglected for several years
J M Z Line has been showing less percentage ridership.
V can do much better if people stop hating it and get use to its.
What borough needs a line more importantly?
I say Staten Island
What Project are you willing to submit to a fare hike for?
1. Extention of #7 line farther to westside manhattan (closer to ACE station) where passanger don't walk longer distance transfer ACE and extended farther north of Flushing Queens.
2. 2nd Ave subway line.
3. Extend SIR to westside of Staten Island
Where should the New Subway Yard Be Built?
I say Sunnyside yard in queens where they can stored E F N R W 7 G all together
What line do you line needs the most imporvement?
The Answer you've requested is NA at this time.
What line would you like to see have a full express service?
A line! When A make local stops in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, during nite, it give rider a much longer ride. Have the D runs local at nite since the line itself is much shorter than A.
What line do you feel needs to be removed from the system?
Should we keep the V?
Remove the S as current Rockaway Park Shuttle and change it back to H.
Read it here:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast/09/23/train.stopped.ap/index.html
-Nick
What designation should the new 2nd Ave subway receive if/when it is completed?
The Miracle line (it will be amiracle if it ever gets built)
"The Miracle line (it will be amiracle if it ever gets built)"
They should call it the "FINALLY" line!!!
The "I" train - for Imaginary.
O,Y,U Or just steal a role sign off a R-32. It is all the ones with the white globes.
Depends on how the line is built. North of 63rd. St, an extension of existing Broadway BMT routes will be used. For the rest, I'd assume some unused letters would be used (U, X, Y). Or they might re-activate some long unused letters (H, K, T).
I would give it a light blue color and call it the "U".
I like the Light Blue idea - give it the old JFK Express color. Not many letters left available:
These are no good:
I - too close to 1
O - like 0
So that leaves these:
H - not the Rockaway shuttle anymore any way
P - well that's been discussed why no one wants that
T - It'll never be the west end again anyway
K - well it's not used for anything else right now
U
X
Y
Well I have a little reasoning to using the U. If the Q does indeed go up 2nd Avenue, you'd have the Q/U...partner letters in the english language!
Kind of like 7/11.
I kind of like A/C/E also.
7/11 is my daughter's bithday! A lucky number indeed.
:-) Andrew
T - It'll never be the west end again anyway
I can dream - can't I ;-)
Why is using I and O such a problem?
I don't think people are that stupid as to confuse 1 and I as they are both on different divisions.
As for O, care to tell me what the problem is since there is no 0 train on the IRT!
I don't think people are that stupid as to confuse 1 and I as they are both on different divisions.
While I agree it sounds stupid, but I don't even think many average riders even get the "two divsion" thing. Many don't even realize that it is not physically possible to run a F train up the Lexington Avenue line. (Well we know the tunnels can handle it north of Grand Central). But I don't think many people understand the differences between the two divisions, aside from the fact that the trains look different. Remember you can't think like a railfan when thinking of the average rider.
Ok, but can't we make both digits look different by adding two vertical lines on the I.
I propose:
(Q) Harlem/125 St--Brighton Beach via upper 2nd Ave/63rd St/Broadway/Brighton
(U) Harlem/125 St--Downtown/Water St via 2nd Ave full length
(V) Forrest Hills/71 Ave--Downtown/Water St via Queens Bld/63rd St Tunnel/lower 2nd Ave
Or something like that.
:-) Andrew
Your extension of the Q to 125/Harlem is logical and I predict that MTA will do that.
As to Queens Blvd - that will be interesting. Should that service be local or express in Queens.
The current V will, of course, remain on the 53rd Street line. But a new train (VV, X?) could be run that way. It could be an F split service, or a V split service.
Or maybe the TA can be persuaded to build a diversion from the 63rd Street tunnel to serve La Guardia. Part of the money for that is already in the city coffers, though reserved for an N extension.
But the additional 63rd Street diversion (not my original idea; it was presented by other Subtalk posters) could be used for 2nd Av service. The new train would run from downtown via 2nd Av subway to 63rd Street, then east via 63rd Street visiting Roosevelt Island and 21/Queensbridge, then would travel through the new tunnel to East Elmhurst station(s) and terminate at LGA's main terminal.
R=Broadway Express.125th street,Lexington Ave to 95 street 4th ave Brooklyn. I read that myself in the Queens Public library,concerning the new service expation program.The R would be replaced on Queens Blvd by a new service called the ''T''. The other services to use 2 Avenue are U,X,AND Y. The P was a Nassau street/Bway Bklyn superexpress bullet. The V has nothing to do with the 2 Avenue route.It was going to be the Queens SUPEREXPRESS.
Thank you for posting that. Good research! I stand corrected.
Well, do you think we can get money in a future Capital Plan for another line into Queens?
What you posted might still need another tunnel coming off 63rd Street, or something else. Otherwise, the TA will have to offer a modified service, again due to the bottlenecks on Queens Blvd.
awhile ago I did direct a question toward you concerning the LIRR's new route to Grand Central... the fact that the line is using the alinement that the 63rd street line's Quenns Xpress would have used,the oppertunity has presented itself to build the the Crosstown at least as far as Woodside...untill away could be found to complete the Full routing... I do have my fingers crossed..
how about the AIRPORT SPUR TO LGA FROM 63RD STREET? The money's already there,and the MTA has plans for a line through Elmhurst,on the drawing board in case the Astoria EL THING DOESN'T [in which it won't,i believe]work out.....
I like that. Good idea.
Really the Q makes a more logical option for the Second Ave. route, since the 63rd St. connection comes in on the express tracks, which the Q is already using having come over the Manny B. Running the R up Second Ave. -- unless they plan to have two lines serving the route -- would require a track switch to the local south of 57th St. so the R could use the Montague Tunnel.
no.The R would become the FULL TIME Broadway-4th avenue Express service to Upper Manhattan....the T would be the local to Queens via the 60th street line,Broadway local.
It should be called the Second Ave Subway. Just like the Broadway Express, 6th Ave local, etc.
The first operating segment is going to run from Harlem under Second Ave over the Broadway express line from 63rd Street.
So the designation will probably be Second Av - Broadway Express.
Similar to: The Seventh Av IRT (number 2 and 3 trains)operates along two different streets on its journey, so it's called the Broadway-Seventh Av express.
I never knew the 2 and 3 was the 7th Avenue/Broadway Expess. I thought it was simply the 7th Avenue Express.. And the #1 is the Broadway local..
N Broadway Line
The 2 and 3 are known as the 7Ave Express. They should be known as the Bway/7Ave Express. Two stops on both 7Av and Bway. The 1 is known as the Bway/7Ave local.
The 2 and 3 were traditional known as the 7th Avenue-LENOX Express (or local).
Does it even matter? Let's leave it at 7th Avenue for sake of simplicity.
i would give it white color(that,s all i can come up with)
It's white on the rollsigns[R32/38]too.
AirTrain was supposed to open in 2002. 2002 is now winding down. Does anybody know of a date, or at least a month of opening?
AirTrain was supposed to open in 2002. 2002 is now winding down. Does anybody know of a date, or at least a month of opening?
I'm sure it won't be open by October 27. That's when I'll be flying out of JFK. God help me, not those ghastly long-term parking shuttle buses again!
It'll open on Oct 28, just to piss you off :-)
It'll open on Oct 28, just to piss you off :-)
Arrrgh! If that ever happened, I'd end up at the Hair Club for Men, having pulled out all of my hair. That is, if I don't first end up in Bellevue.
Actually, as we're flying to Los Angeles (LGB, to be precise) on Sunday the 27th and returning Tuesday the 29th, I may just end up paying extra for the shorter-term parking near the terminals. There's just no way I could ever deal with the shuttle buses again - THAT would definitely put me in Bellevue!
Well, if it opens on the 28th, look on the bright side - you can use it when you get back!
I just said that date as a joke, I have no clue when it opens.
Sounds like you loathe the buses there like I hate my school campus shuttle bus. I'd rather walk 20 minutes than put up with the retards that drive the buses here. It takes 10 minutes to make a loop around my school, but they need a 15 minute break every time they arrive at the lay-up point. That's just for starters, I could go on all day.
The last press release from the PA (July 15th) said it would open during the 4th quarter, with the Jamaica extension opening in 2nd Qtr 2003. No news since then.
CG
Notice on the image at the Homepage. An R32 or R38 K Train at the ?Shop
Have read of several scams going on in the Paris Metro. No matter what anybody else says, they cannot restrict the sale of any of their passes only to locals. Yet people go into the metro and ask to buy a Carte Orange which is a 1 week pass or a mobilis pass which is a 1 day pass and the clerks in the Metro tell them they cannot buy these passes as they are paid for by French taxes. They then try to steer unsuspecting tourists to overpriced Paris Visite passes which are far more expensive.
Do not fall for this garbage. If you want a Carte Orange in Paris, you are allowed to buy one. If you want a Mobilis ticket in Paris, you are allowed to buy one no matter what the clerk tries to tell you.
Personally I think the RATP (the MTA of Paris) is trying to get its clerks to pull this off to overprice tourists; especially tourists too naive to know what they are entitled to.
Do the tourist passes offer anything extra the "home" passes do not? Like transfers from Metro to the commuter rail etc.
As far as I know, there are some concession for visiting museums when you're holding the Paris Visite. Howver if you don't need that, it's a rip-off.
I'm ignorant about what is and isn't allowed under French law. But just on a commonsense basis, it isn't necessarily outrageous that a concessionary fare subsidized out of local taxation might be restricted to those who live within the city that pays that local taxation. Those who haven't contributed through their taxes are then required to pay a higher fare. The fact that this is not done in other places (such as New York or London) doesn't mean that it is necessarily illegal (or immoral) in Paris.
Actually, believe it or not, it is illegal under the laws of the EU as you are not allowed to discriminate against other members of the EU which, while I know do not apply to US tourists, certainly does apply to UK tourists.
But the fact is none of the literature of the RATP specifically says tourists cannot buy these tickets. What they have tried to do is they do not put the Carte Orange on their English language web site; it is on the French web site but does not come out and say the sale is restricted to residents of the Paris area. It does say the ticket was designed for citizens of the Paris region but does not come out and say toursts cannot buy it.
Several years ago, I was going to Paris and I e-mailed the RATP with a simple question....are tourists allowed to buy Carte Orange. The response that came back was very vague....basically the pass was intended for citizens of the Paris area who subsidize the Metro with their taxes but at no point would they come out and say no you can't buy it. Fact is most of the time tourists can and have bought the Carte Orange. Every so often some clerk refuses to sell it.
The other pass, the Mobilis, is actually on the English language web site which certainly seems to mean tourists can buy it yet some clerks also refuse to sell them to tourists.
I just post this for informational purposes. If you go to Paris, and can take advantage of Carte Orange (which is only valid for a specific 7 day period from Monday to Sunday and is a great buy), don't let some clerk in the Metro tell you that you can't buy it. They are most certainly wrong.
I don't know why this doesn't surprize me! Too bad the US Armed Forces weren't "designed for the defense of Americans only" during WWII! I guess you just need a local to get it for you. Do they make you show ID to get it or do they just size you up by the way you speak French?
Actually just because you don't speak French, and on this I am on solid ground, they can't just deny you the Carte Orange. As I stated, EU regulations state it is illegal in any country of the EU to discriminate in favour of its citzens over other citizens of the EU. So even though you speak English, you could just as easily be from the UK or from Holland where almost everybody speaks English with hardly any accent! I have never seen them ask for passports (which EU citizens do not have to carry while in the EU) anyway.
I fully agree with your line of thinking, but the fact remains; the French do things different from the rest of the civilized world. I know first hand, I WAS MARRIED TO ONE FOR SIX YEARS!
I have never seen them ask for passports (which EU citizens do not have to carry while in the EU) anyway.
There's one notable exception to Schengen: the UK and Ireland still impose border controls, while EU citizens don't necessarily need a passport, they do need to present identification.
I'm not an expert on French law, but it would seem that the practice of denying Carte Orange to visitors would require that it be denied to French citizens outside Paris as well.
I seem to recall a ticket machine in Paris that sold Carte Orange.
Mark
That's what I found from the RATP site, I will quote the French version first and then I give the English translation by Altavista's Babelfish.
Quote:
"Ce titre permet d'utiliser tous les transports en commun d'Île-de-France dans un périmètre déterminé (nombre de zones) sans limitation du nombre de voyages. Cet abonnement est composé d'une carte nominative et d'un coupon (hebdomadaire ou mensuel).
Validité des coupons :
coupon hebdomadaire : du lundi au dimanche.
Il peut être acheté jusqu'au mercredi pour la semaine en cours, et à partir du vendredi pour la semaine suivante (pas de vente de coupon hebdomadaire le jeudi).
coupon mensuel : un mois calendaire.
Il peut être acheté à partir du 20 du mois précédent et jusqu'au 19 du mois en cours."
Translation:
"This title(ticket) makes it possible to use all public transport of Island-of-France in a given perimeter (a number of zones) without limitation of the number of journeys. This ticket is composed of a personal chart and a coupon (weekly or monthly).
Validity of the coupons:
weekly coupon: Monday to Sunday.
It can be bought until Wednesday for the week in progress, and as from Friday for the following week (not of weekly sale of coupon Thursday).
monthly coupon: one month calendar.
It can be bought from the 20 of the previous month and until 19 of the month in progress."
What is "Island of France"? I stumbled across that term back in May when I was trying to locate my ex-wife after she disappeared with our son to France. I was trying to find her mothers phone number and I had to get the correct region, when I finally guessed Island of France, I got the number.
Is Island of France the Paris area or what does it include?
Thanks
What is "Island of France"? I stumbled across that term back in May when I was trying to locate my ex-wife after she disappeared with our son to France. I was trying to find her mothers phone number and I had to get the correct region, when I finally guessed Island of France, I got the number.
Is Island of France the Paris area or what does it include?
It's basically the Paris metro area. Why the "island" part, I don't know for sure.
The term has been in use for a very long time, and my guess would be that it comes from the fact that the original settlement that became Paris is on the island in the Seine where Notre Dame cathedral now stands. The term may have taken on a metaphorical meaning during the middle ages as the kings of France often controlled only the city and the surrounding area, while dukes and barons controlled everything else. Also, in the earliest days of the Frankish kingdom, this was the part of France inhabited by the Franks, the alliance of tribes that eventually gave the entire country its name.
Mark
The word "abonnement" actually means "subscription" or when used for commutation purposes "season ticket". The word "billet" is the more common word for "ticket".
Personally, I believe that the RATP is trying to steer tourists into buying the "Paris Visite" card as opposed to the "Carte Orange". For all we know, the RATP may be paying commissions to outlets & clerks who sell the "Paris Visite" card which would explain why such an up-sell exists.
To limit the sale of Carte Orange tickets solely to French citizens would be a blatant violation of EU law.
Another interesting point about paris metro tiken clerks is that they sellother items besides rail tickets
like
Phone cards and condems
It is true that EU prevents any EU government from discriminating between citizens of EU member states. In fact, in Britain (I don't know about France), it also contravenes race relations legislation do discriminate against anyone on the grounds of their nationality, EU or not (though of course non-EU citizens need a work permit to work in the country).
The issue here, though, was not about nationality, but place of residence. It does not contravene EU law for a city's local government to subsidize something, and then restrict the use of that subsidized something to residents (of whatever nationality) of that city - for example, membership of the public library. I am guessing that may be the issue with Carte Orange.
The Babelfish translated "abonnement" to "subscription" as you said. However, I think it is too vague so I change it to "ticket".
And also I have miss looked about "d'Île-de-France" was translated to "Island-of-France", I should change that back it its original name.
Bought Carte Orange in paris last summer NO PROBLEM.
Although the ticket clerk tried to sell me the more expensive turist museme pass.
Since I was under 26 at the time most musumes are either free or are discounted signigficantly
What day did you attempt to purchase a weekly Carte Orange?
Carte Orange is a 7 day pass at an immense discount but the 7 day period must be Monday to Sunday of a calendar week. It is sold only through Wednesday of a particular week.
In answer to another question, the Carte Orange consists of two parts. One part is the Carte Orange which is a card (believe it or not it is orange in colour) with room for a photo and has a number on it. The actual ticket is the same size as the regular metro tickets (pretty small) which is inserted in the turnstiles. The little ticket is available in the machines but technically is not valid without the Carte Orange as you are supposed to write the number of the Carte Orange on the ticket. Given the number of people who wander in and out of the metro, the chances of a control check are miniscule especially since unlike London you do not have to put the ticket in the turnstile to exit the Metro (but you do the RER even in Paris)....
When riding the buses, where the value of the Carte Orange really increases, you show the folder containing the Carte Orange and the ticket to the driver. See the problem with the buses in Paris is there are no free transfers...each time you get on a bus you have to use a new ticket and you can go through a carnet pretty quickly.
>>> Carte Orange consists of two parts. One part is the Carte Orange which is a card (believe it or not it is orange in colour) with room for a photo and has a number on it. <<<
The plot thickens. The Carte Orange is not just a time dependent unlimited pass, but more like the discount passes offered for disabled and elderly riders in the U.S. First you have to show your eligibility to obtain a card with your picture on it which costs a certain amount, and then you purchase monthly stamps to place on the card. In Los Angeles, a disabled transit ID costs $3.00 (plus the cost of a passport sized picture) and is valid for two years, the monthly stamps cost $12.00.
I am unaware of the actual rules, but I can see where the Carte Orange could be limited to the residents of a certain area, like metropolitan Paris without running afoul of EU rules, if foreigners residing in Paris are also eligible.
Tom
shot a 5 1/2 hour video day / night video of the #4 train tonight
was on my way back to either the atlantic / penn station LIRR
when all of a sudden at 149 th street station some NUT who works for
the MTA/nyc says who an i what am i doing inside the motormans cab??
@ i had no idea this AMBUSH was going 2 happen this late at night 11pm
no i am being threatned with ARREST by this low level MTA/nyc wimp!
here come the transit police , he INSISTS i am put into custody NOW !!
( the motorman invided me 2 shoot because almost all of the redbirds
were going to the yard ... anyway the motorman was very nice 2 me !
now me and my wife have to wait wit the threat of ARREST at the
11th didtrict 149th st transit police station near yankee stadium !!
had some interesting conversations with some of them !!
the nut at the station dissapears what makes me feel bad is that the
motorman is now in trouble for what ??
i am told i cannot take any more videos / pictures of any nyc train,
or even a bus ??
if i do i will go way to federal detention to be permanetly locked
up for life !!( lock em up and throw away the key ) !!!!????
they did give me back my stills / videos !!!!!!
the watch commander commodore did say he was sorry they had to do this to me and my wife ( who was not in the motormans cab i was )
folks i am heading to the long island rail road !!!!
no trouble there folks !!
he says U know .......................911 .........???
what in the hell is going on here folks ???
i was getting more nad more TIRED of thier endless questions of which
had NOTHING 2 do with my shooting video !!!
i asked them not to do nothing to the nice motorman who helped me !
( now at a hell of a price i have a 6 hour #4 video ) !!!!!
i am totally unhappy even south ferry can get a permit 2 shoot a video !! this whoe thing is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
sick !! did i rob a bank?? rape kill someone ??
while my son is on standy in the army in hannau germany his father
cannnot shoot a peaceful video in the new york subway system !!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NO .......... lol...........
This has always bugged me. Its bad enough that the far East Side in Midtown has so little subway access. But when the 63rd Street line was built, why was no 2nd Ave station included? This way, East Siders could have used the station to ride one stop to Lex/63 and use the walkway to the 59th Street stop on the Lex, which is an express stop.
Was it a NIMBY thing? Seems like NYCT missed a good oppty here to serve East Siders.
What walkway on "the 59th street stop"? Do you mean the sidewalk after getting off at 63 and Lex?
No, that's NOT what I mean, sporto. The September 2002 subway map shows a travelator between Lex/63 and Lex/59, a la 45 Road on the 7 and 23/Ely on the E/V. Take a look.
That "travelator" is called a free transfer, which means having to leave the Lex/63 station, which is quite deep, and walking for four blocks to get to Lex/59. It is a very inconvenient transfer.
Really? That is utter stupidity. The map suggests a moving walkway.
"Really? That is utter stupidity. The map suggests a moving walkway."
Is it stupid to offer a free transfer (even with a walk involved) where there was none before?
While not as convenient as a transfer with little or no walking, inside fare control, the transfer between 59-63 St represents another free option for riders.
Look at the map legend. That symbol, used in two places on the map, denotes an out-of-system MetroCard transfer.
Both the 63rd Street line and the Lex express are deep. The station would become hugely popular if two new passageways were built, one on each side of the express tracks (extensions of the platforms, essentially), connecting directly to the 63rd Street platforms.
"The station would become hugely popular if two new passageways were built, one on each side of the express tracks (extensions of the platforms, essentially), connecting directly to the 63rd Street platforms."
I'd even settle for a single passageway going from the lower mezzanine at 60th (the mezzanine below the N/R/W) to one of the mezzanine levels at 63rd.
A good second-best option, as long as by "one of the mezzanine levels at 63rd" you mean a level near the bottom of the long sequence of escalators.
Does anyone know what the relative depths of the various lines are?
Second Avenue would be too close to the existing 63rd Street station between Lex and Third.
One of these days, they'll get around to opening up the entrance at Third Avenue.
That's an excellent idea. They may get around to it sooner if you and others write to them about it.
I got to see this area yeaterday when doing a W putin. I's a creepy dark cavernous room with stairways to the various levels, and a bottom that's hard to see. I was wondering if it went down to the unused LIRR level, and up to the supposed connection to the electrical room that adjoins the IRT, but it was probably too far east for that (That is supposed to be accessible from a door in the Lexington fare control area)
I was wondering if it went down to the unused LIRR level ...
No, it doesn't... I've been there (in the station, not the LIRR level) on a Transit Museum tour several years ago. In fact, I don't think the LIRR level exists at that point, although I might be mistaken.
... and up to the supposed connection to the electrical room that adjoins the IRT ...
There were several sealed passages from that area that we could not access or identify. One of them might be a connection to that room, but I don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My guess is that since the 63rd St northern tracks are supposed to tie into the 2nd Ave line, to build a station at 63rd and 2nd would mean building arround proposed ramps. It is not impossible, but it could prove costly. In the proposed line, the nearest station on 2nd Ave would be at 57th St.
I wonder why other east-west lines (42nd St IRT, 53rd St IND, 60th St BMT) don't have stops in Manhattan east of Lexington (though both the IND and BMT "Lexington Ave" stations are technically between Lex and 3rd.) My guess is that since these lines are heading into underwater tunnels at this point, a station so close to the river would have to be fairly deep, and thus expensive. Perhaps that is also why there's no 63rd and 2nd Ave station.
:-) Andrew
The 42nd St IRT (a/k/a 42nd St Shuttle) is a remnant of the original line as it operated from 1904 to the early 1920's when the "H" configuration was created.
That is why it did not extend further east.
No. No. No. No! :-) By "42nd Street IRT" I mean the Corona-Flushing line, ie the (7), not the (S). The question isn't why a line wasn't extended to 2nd Ave, but why lines that already cross 2nd don't have stations there.
:-) Andrew
I stand corrected.
I think that a lot of the connections were based on the fact that the 3rd Avenue El was considered more important than the 2nd Avenue (at least as far as IRT connections go. There was a connection from the Corona-Flushing line to the 3rd Av El. In the earlier days there was an elevated shuttle on 42nd St that ran from the 2nd Avenue El to Grand Central so connections did exist. Why they did not become subway connections? It was probably a lot of NIMBY and other political considerations.
As far as the other lines (not including the 63rd St)- it may have had a lot to do with competition and neighborhood concerns. Remember at the time those lines were built the IRT, BMT and IND were separate companies.
You forgot to mention the Canarsie line (L). It has stations at 1st Avenue and 3rd Avenue. Why did they pick those instead of one at 2nd Avenue? Could be any number of reasons.
You forgot to mention the Canarsie line (L). It has stations at 1st Avenue and 3rd Avenue. Why did they pick those instead of one at 2nd Avenue? Could be any number of reasons.
The Manhattan El's were on 1st and 3rd Avenues.
The 2nd Avenue El would have still been on 2nd Avenue at 14th St, wouldn't it?
I believe the maps on this site show it was on First until 23 street, where it crossed over to 3 Avenue
The 2nd Avenue El would have still been on 2nd Avenue at 14th St, wouldn't it?
No, it wasn't. The 2nd Ave El ran from Chatham Sq along E Bway, Allen St, 1st Ave, 23rd St and 2nd Ave up to 129th St.
The uptown/downtown lines intersecting the 14th St line would have been on 1st Ave (2nd Ave El), 3rd Ave (3rd Ave El), Union Sq (BMT Bway and IRT Lex), 6th Ave (6th Ave El) and 9th Ave at the time the 14th St line was built. What do you find illogical with the 14th St line station placement?
The Stuy town people would go nuts put they might consider putting the 1st ave station entrance on the other side of the plat or even another entrance without a booth. It would do wonders for traffic congestion clearing the way for the buses that take the people to Loisiada.
I was talking about Midtown, not 14th Street.
The Canarsie BMT does indeed have stops at 1st and 3rd Avenues. But remember that even 1st Ave isn't that close to the river at that point, with Stuyvesant Town and Alphabet City lying east of it, so the stations don't have to be that deep. As to why they were picked over 2nd Ave, I can only answer with a determined and definitive "I Don't Know."
:-) Andrew
When he said "42nd Street IRT" I think he meant the 7 line, not the shuttle.
On Sept. 24, 1957 the BROOKLYN Dodgers beat the Pirates 2-0 in the last game played at Ebbets Field.
O'Malley wanted to build a new stadium at Atlantic Center, with his own funds, and the city fathers said no. He packed up and went to LA.
Would have been a dynamite spot with the LIRR, IRT, BMT and various bus lines in the area. Several years later the politicians said yes to MSG at Penn Station that has a comparable array of public transit near it.
Not meaning to belabour the point...
The subhuman O'Malley was not satisfied that the Brooklyn franchise was the biggest money maker in the National League everything considered. Los Angeles made him an offer not caring that they were kicking people off land they had inhabited for years as the city owned the land. Having been given that offer, O'Malley wanted the city to give him the land over the LIRR terminal. One small problem, the city did not own the land. The piece of garbage O'Malley made this request knowing it would have been at best a 10 year court case for the city to try to take the land away from its owner, the Pennsylvania Rail Road. The contempt of that subhuman as well as the rest of major league baseball including a Commissioner whose job it was to protect the fans and not allow moves not in the best interest of baseball is an example of the contemp citizens of Brooklyn must never forget when their ball club was stolen from them due to the greed of a sub human.
Hopefully O'Malley is rotting in hell where he belongs.
Incidentally, it is revisionist history to blame Robert Moses for this situation. O'Malley was trying to make an illegal land grab; something the City of New York had no right to do. It wasn't like as some people believe that Moses said take Flushing Meadow or leave it....he was searching for a solution and that was one possible solution. But O'Malley only cared for the money he would be making in Los Angeles and the land grab he was being given; nothing except major league baseball standing up for the integrity of the fans would have prevented what happened.
Jeff: The fact is Moses DID offer O'Malley Flushing Meadows on a take it or leave it offer. O'Malley said he couldn't call his team the Brooklyn Dodgers if they played in Queens. The fact is, as Pee Wee Reese said, O'Malley wanted to leave Brooklyn for greener pastures where he would be first fiddle and not second fiddle. The Yankees were a bigger name in New York but the ironic fact was the fan for fan there were more Dodger fans than Yankee fans at the time. Keep this in mind, about 99% of all Black people were Dodger fans and that gave them the majority, plus the fact the Brooklyn was the most populated borough by far, and much of southern Queens and lower Manhattan was Dodger territory.
It's the time line that's important here. The piece of garbage O'Malley had already made a verbal agreement with Los Angeles to take their offer of handing over land where the city had no compulsion of kicking people off. For show, because he knew the city of New York legally could not do it, the piece of garbage O'Malley put forward the plan to build his domed stadium on the site of the LIRR terminal at Atlantic and Flatbush. As the then Mayor Wagner explained, he would have gone to jail for giving away somethiing the did not own to a private individual. It was at this point that Robert Moses did come along with the Flushing Meadow proposal but it really didn't matter. The piece of garbage O'Malley was gone.
The point is it is a crime to call the current Los Angeles National League Baseball team the Dodgers...what do the denizens of that place know about dodging trolleys for which the team was made (what do they know about lakes either for which the basketball team they stoled is named??). The team that plays in Los Angeles should be referred to as the Los Angeles O'Malleys...they are not the Dodgers. The Dodgers ceased to exist in 1957.
It is very important when discussing this to not make the mistake of applying 2002 standards to this. In 1957, baseball was still considered a civic responsibility. Lots of owners (Crosley in Cincinnati, Carpenter in Philadelphia, the Pittsburgh owner whose name eludes me) were not making nearly the money the Brooklyn franchise was making but they felt a civic responsibility to remain in their cities. Only pieces of shit like O'Malley could care less about what was right and wrong and because he wasn't making enough money in Brooklyn to satisfy himself, he took his toy to Los Angeles.
Too many people today do not understand this contempt of O'Malley, Ford Frick the Commissioner and Warren Giles the President of the National League (who said who needs New York when he announced the Brooklyn and New York franchises were being re-located) had to fans who supported a team through thick and thin. Too many people think the franchise left Brooklyn because Brooklyn could not support major league baseball; that the team had failed in Brooklyn.
People of my age who know differently have the obligation to call it the way it really was. The fact that there is no major league baseball in Brooklyn today lies at the hands of one piece of shit...Walter F. O'Malley. May he continue to rot in hell.
And for what it's worth, remember also that New York has only ONE football team, the Buffalo Bills ...
And California has three but none in Los Angeles---and frankly I don't a rat's ass either. If someone wants to bring a team to LA let him build his own freaking stadium and keep his hands out of my pockets. Besides if we had a team, there would be blackouts and I'd be deprived of watching some great games on the tube. BTW, most of the people in LA are either Raiders or Chargers fans. I happen to be a Miami Dolphins fanatic.
Well, at least you're a Met fan. Now if they could only stop Flushing so many seasons down the crapper.
This year was a waste Steve. I would like to see the Mets sign Jeff Kent of the Giants who is a free agent, and get rid of Alomar or Fatso. They have done nothing to help the team except eat and bitch. And Valentine has got to get his shit together. The team always starts slow and has personnel problems. And two other things; get rid of those dopers whoever they are, and get Piazza away from the backstop. It is slowing down his career as this is g oing to be the first year he doesn't hit 300.
I'd like to see the Braves finish second for once. OTOH they've won exactly one World Series during their run of 11 straight division titles. Big deal. I'm sorry, but that's not exactly what I'd call a dynasty.
Then there are the YANKS
And there goes my last night's dinner.
This is for you Fred:
And to think I rallied to the defense of police officer's this week when one of our own started knocking them. Thanks for the gift. It really helps to ruin my day.
["And to think I rallied to the defense of police officer's this week when one of our own started knocking them. Thanks for the gift. It really helps to ruin my day."]
Thanks anyway for the defense. That poster had it coming. But I've been a Yankee Fan since the Mick!!! In the late 60's I vended at both Yankee & Shea but always had rather been at Yankee. By the way, as some of the posters already know, I'm only going to be a Police Officer (actually Police Sergeant) for only five (5) more days. After 9/30 I will officially be a retired cop!!! Then I will have to find a real job!!! Volunteer operator at Branford won't really supplement the pension much!!! I already started to write my monthly resume to the LIRR!!!
Hey Sarge, congrats on your upcoming retirement. I retired this past June after 35 years of teaching. So far so goo.
Congradulations to you too. I have very mixed feelings. I really don't want to go however I made way too much overtime this past year and since the pension goes by the last year I figure if I don't go the pension will go way down and I'd have to work at least 5-7 more years to get the same pension. I will have to get another job though as my Nassau property taxes keep going up and Arthur who is 6 now will need college money in about 12 years, not to mention a Bar Mitzvah in 7 yrs.
Will I see you in Branford in October? Which day are you going?
Are you going to Branford on the 13th? I'll be there.
<< I made way too much overtime this past year and since the pension goes by the last year I figure if I don't go the pension will go way down and I'd have to work at least 5-7 more years to get the same pension. >>
Can you get a job with the Nassau PD w/o jepoardizing your pension?
No, that would be double dipping. Besides, I wouldn't want to go to the academy which is like boot camp at 49!!!
Unfortunately, NYC Transit and LI Bus is also double dipping. I have put in resumes for the LIRR & Metro North for asst. conductor which is IO since they're in the Federal RR Retirement Act but from what I read on this forum and others I have a snowballs chance in hell!!!
Tired of being a cop? Fred and I will be in NYC in 2 weeks will we get a chance to meet you?
No, that would be double dipping. Besides, I wouldn't want to go to the academy which is like boot camp at 49!!!
Unfortunately, NYC Transit and LI Bus is also double dipping. I have put in resumes for the LIRR & Metro North for asst. conductor which is Ok since they're in the Federal RR Retirement Act but from what I read on this forum and others I have a snowballs chance in hell!!!
Hey Sarge, congrats on your upcoming retirement. I retired this past June after 35 years of teaching. So far so good.
Let's see, what will we miss on Sunday the 13th?
Brighton vs Sea Beach debates.
Yankee/Met/Dodger debates.
Debates escalating to shouting matches.
Friendly name calling.
Have you two ever thought of going out on the comedy club circuit or having a radio talk show?:)
Your loss baby. You know you can always go to Branford but you cannot always catch the Bob and Fred Show. Well pal, your loss.
Someone will have to tag along with a camcorder.
Put it this way: getting an opportunity to take a crash course on 1689 was just too good to pass up.
Hey, HEY! Watch it with that "Crash course" stuff ... if she goes on the ground, WE gotta get her back up. Ain't gonna happen bro. :)
Oops, I forgot to add "rim shot".:)
I'm a Mets fan first and a New York fan second.
When the Mets play the Yankees, I root for the Mets.
When the Giants and Jets play, I root for the Giants. Yes, Alice, I know they both play in Jersey.
If any New York team in any sport makes the playoffs, I root for New York, even if they play a team from Denver.
Big words for someone whose team spent $100 million dollars on players in the off season to beat the first place team and is now 24.5 games back. Remind me how many Division titles the Mets have won, ever? Four? I'm sure the Mets are right up there with Qing and Ming for the best dynasty. :-)
Yes, that $100 million plan backfired drastically. I'm sorry my post came out the way it did. I can't help but think of the Buffalo Bills of a decade ago. They went to four straight Super Bowls and lost all four. Not what you'd call a dynasty, either.
No need to be sorry, I LOVE bashing other teams, so it's only fair that people bash mine :-)
Jeff Kent was already with the Mets a few years back, and he was a miserable person then, just like he is today. Even though he puts up great numbers, I wouldn't want him in my clubhouse. And I'm a fan of the team where Kent got his start, the Toronto Blue Jays.
Hey Fishbowl, it's easy for you to say because you're not a Mets fan who had to put up with those clowns constantly underachieving because most of them couldn't hit in the clutch if their lives depended on it. Jeff Kent has driven in over 100 runs six years in a row. That is outstanding and just what the Mets need. He got mad at the Mets years back because they had switched him from second to third and was not equipped to play that position. I notice he has also played a lot of first base this year as well so he would be a valuable asset if the Mets would go after him. Of course, the Giants would be nuts to let him get away.
The Mets have to cut down on the errors if they expect to not flush another season down the crapper next year. You'd think it was 1962 all over agin with all the bobbles and boots they committed this year.
Steve, please don't be a simpleton. What the Mets have to do is get Mike Piazza the hell out of that catching position, re-sign Edgardo Alfonso, try and sign Jeff Kent and get rid of that big fat tub of shit at first. Put Kent on first and Alfonzo on second and you could help get that infield back in shape. I like this kid Wigginton. I think he could be a good third baseman and hitter. That would be a good start.
Heh. Now you know why I regard Steingrabber with about as much respect as any other scammer. If sports MATTERED (it doesn't) I'd be leaping up and down ... but then again, it's just a frigging GAME. I'd rather see tax dollars go to the WWF. :)
You know Selkirk my friend, I never thought I would say it but I'm beginning to think you have a real point there. It's greed and money and more of the same. They are really testing the sports fan and soon we may all say enough of that. Maybe it was also this way years ago and I was too young to notice, but it seem to have gotten a hell of lot worse.
Years ago, it was just a game. Of course, many of today's old timers wish they could have made what today's athletes are making today. Frankly, many of those guys out there aren't worth the paper they're printed on, never mind their ridiculous salaries. The 1994 baseball strike soured me greatly. I've been to Shea a couple of times to see the Mets, but have no desire at all to go to Coors Field in Denver, even when the Mets are in town. Tickets are becoming easy to get, though, with the way attendance has declined at Rockies games. They actually drew less than 3 million this year.
It is no longer a Sport. It is BIG ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS, ALONG WITH THE NBA AND NFL, AND THE NHL IS GETTING THERE TOO
"professional" Wrestling is already there.
You're absolutely right. No argument there.
One thing that folks in the big cities don't have like we do around here (save for the new Brooklyn team at Coney) is "MINOR league" ball. Now here you have a bunch of folks that go out onto a playing field, draw a small audience, don't make much money and LOVE the game. They play, they have fun, they have a sense of humor, they come up into the stands and hang out with the fans, sign balls and autographs and participate in the COMMUNITY. Minor league players are *REAL* ...
Now ... what about them superstar Yankees? :)
If Stengrabber's entitled to cash money from government, then let's subsidize Brad Pitt. Heh.
Wow!!!!! Jeff, I love your advocacy. You really lay it on. You say the Dodgers ceased to exist in 1957 and should be called the O'Malleys. Actually the Dodger name fits Los Angeles because of all the cars and the way we have to dodge traffic, but to me the Dodgers will always mean Brooklyn. I was overjoyed when they first came out here in 1958 but going to the montrosity Coliseum, where the only thing that place was good for was making clay, and seeing LA on their caps actually infuriated me. I ceased being a Dodger fan on the spot. It was hard for me because as a kid I lived and died with that team, and my whole day and night was based on how they did in their last game.
You might be interested in knowing this. I believe there were three famous TV and radio personalities from Brooklyn some years ago who happened to be big history buffs, and they decided to write down secretly who the three worst people in history were. Ironically all three had the same people and in order. They were:
1. Adolf Hitler
2. Joseph Stalin
3. Walter O'Malley
I just remembered that one of the three buffs was Larry King
the Dodger name fits Los Angeles because of all the cars and the way we have to dodge traffic
People walk down the street in LA?
Oh yes we do, especially in the suburban areas. The drivers are nuts out here and I am probably one of them myself. We had better always be on the alert when crossing the street because they come at you from all corners and sometimes not from corners.
i was three years old and would be TA CMO today. CI peter
Only to their cars
By then, the Pennsy was in dire straits and sold the air rights over Penn Station. Too bad they couldn't have done that for O'Malley.
I posted this myself just minutes ago, not knowing someone else beat me to it. Congratulations Hart Bus, you're one hell of a baseball fan. However, if my computer wouldn't have been on the blink I would have done this last night at 9:01 PST. But you beat me fair and square and I tip my cap to you.
SEPTA and NJ Transit reported 20-30 minute delays on their trains (R7 Trenton and NE Corridor lines to be exact), due to "switching problems". Does anyone have any insight on what happened. I heard the reports on TV this morning.
20-30 min is hardly majour. A majour NEC delay is like 1-2 hours combined with a service suspension.
Was browsing on www.metropla.net and clicked on the Rome Metro. NOW I know why there are only tram photos on nycsubway.org and no metro photos. (Hint: SeveN would be proud)
http://www.metropla.net/eu/rom/roma-b-piramide1.jpg
http://www.metropla.net/eu/rom/roma-b-piramide2.jpg
http://www.metropla.net/eu/rom/roma-b-piramide3.jpg
http://www.metropla.net/eu/rom/roma-a-ottaviano1.jpg
http://www.metropla.net/eu/rom/roma-b-castropretorio2.jpg
It's like a blast from the past.
I rode on the Rome subway in 1978. At the time it consisted of just one line, running from around the Colisseum northward to the main Termini railway station. A second line opened some years later. I really don't remember much about the subway, that being in my pre-railfan days, except for the fact that people often got mild electric shocks from the turnsiles!
I heard that construction proceeded very slowly because of all the ancient artifacts they kept discovering as the tunnels were being dug. During my visit there in 1977, I think I saw an entrance to the yet-to-be-opened subway line.
They were supposed to dig a third line in time for Millennium World Youth Day, but found so many artifacts that the whole line was scrapped.
They have nifty battery powered minibuses though. They would be absolutely silent except they have a high pitched beeping sound every second for safety.
I did a search on the title subject and could not find any mention of this so I wanted to post it.
There is a commercial for some HMO/Insurance called Health First.
It shows a woman being escorted into a subway car and being treated like royalty by the train crew and the cops.
The ironic thing is that the commercial starts out with the voice over saying, "New York, a new health plan is coming to you..."
The amusing part about it is that the scene is filmed inside of a subway car from Toronto. It is definitely not a NYC subway car. In fact, it looks like the same type of car they used when they remade "Car 54 Where Are You" in 1993 and "The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3" back in 1998.
Just a curious obseravtion.
NY Daily news article: http://www.nydailynews.com/boroughs/story/21227p-20146c.html
The article does not mention anything about this, but I wonder if they will consider making 74th into an express stop for the 7...
This is probably going to spell the end of easy access to the abandoned Roosevelt Avenue terminal station. Good thing we have those photos!
I doubt if that is logistically possible. They would have to widen the structure, move the tracks and repostition the platforms in order to make 74th St an express stop. I don't believe there enough room next to the struture to allow for that widening.
Of course they could do like they used to do back in the days of the 3rd Av El in Manhattan - raise the express track and build an express platform above the 2 local ones. I don't know if that is really practical these days.
Refer to how the 7 line looks in the vicinity of 111 Street.
Also note how there is no platforms even near that track!
But consider when that was built. There may have been vacant lots on both sides of the where the structure was going up.
True.
Never. It is structurally impossible. Raising the tracks upward and making it 2-track does raise practicality issues, like if people are willing to walk all the way up there and if the nearby residents will appreciate the extra noise.
...if people are willing to walk all the way up there...
These are Queens residents. They would be willing to walk over hot lava to avoid riding a local!
That seems to be more of an IND thing than a Queens thing. It's just most noticeable on the Queens IND since it's probably the busiest IND line and it has a very strong rush hour peak at the express stations. I think it's fair to say that every IND express outside the CBD tends to be substantially more crowded than the corresponding local.
Are you getting my point? If such a ROW is constructed on top of the existing station, that is some way to climb up to. Not only that, but imagine the darkness the surrounding place would be placed into.
Not my cup of tea....
There are supposed to be interlocking switches installed at either end of 74-Roosevelt sometime during 2002-03. It would then be possible for express trains to swing over to the local platforms, stop at 74, and switch back tothe express tracks again (if that were so desired).
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Uh, personally I don't support that idea. Expresses coming from either terminal are already crowded. Why do we need more people!?
I just hope the work doesn't ruin that express run!
It probably will...
It'd be cheaper if they installed them to the north only, and nonstopped at 69st.
Great news. I knew this project was in the Capital Plan, and I'm glad it's finally happening (the bus terminal job was already underway).
The artist's sketch shows a beautiful station. This is going to be really nice for riders.
Kew Gardens and Forest Hills IND stops needs a rehab/ADA job too. Maybe they could redesign the outer lanes/sidewalks of Queens Blvd. to include covered bus bays. One such bay could be near the 78th Av exit at the Kew Gardens stop, where the Q46 terminates.
Sorry, should have used "need" for plural. Bad editing on my part.
Jeez, man. Don't worry about it. You're such a perfectionist.
Kew Gardens...needs a rehab/ADA job too..Maybe they could redesign the outer lanes/sidewalks of Queens Blvd. to include covered bus bays...
Something like the unused bus station & automobile dropoff that connects on the mezzanine level?
Would that be near the courthouse?
No, it's along Union Turnpike/Interboro Parkway at the mezzanine level.
Saw this crew assignment on the F Line this past weekend because of the General Order that was in effect
Report to Kings Highway at X PM
Dead Head to Euclid Ave
Make trip 2 hours after reporting time from Euclid Ave to 179th Street
Make trip 179th Street to Euclid Ave
Dead Head From Euclid Ave to Kings Highway to sign out
Total work 1 round trip
Total time for dead heading-4 hours
Any comments
Thank You
PS-Will not post time to protect crew
It sounds like a great job to me. Why wound anyone complain about a 1 tripper? However iF the road is messed up you can take a train down the road instead of the D/H.
The crew that picked that job picked to start & finish at Kings Highway-F. Rather than pay extra $$$ to the crew for deadhead time to either start or finish at Euclid Av, one of the trips is taken away and the crew simply deadhead's on regular time.
Believe me, the crew loved that job. I know that I would.
The last time I got one trip dropped on a two-trip due to a GO was almost 4 years ago when I was still a Conductor. I wish it would happen more often.
>>>>>>>I wish it would happen more often.
Believe me, so do I. Right now, I'd prefer it if the TA eliminated such jobs like 4 trips on the E, 4 trips on the J, and other such backbreaking jobs (yeah right).
The point is that it isn't a very efficient use of resources.
But, in any optimizing system, there is going to be slack. This guy is slack. If they have him take over some other chunk of work, some other guy would end up being slack. The space just gets pushed around. If you try to allocate work evenly, then it gets more expensive because the crew end up in the wrong places.
AEM7
I think some nameless train crew(s) will have themselves one sweet job!
Does Dead-Heading refer only to a train operated "out of service" and empty by a crew from Point A to Point B? Or does it also refer to a crew which is out of service and whose members are traveling as passengers on a different's crew's regular service train?
B"H
going to a lot of grateful dead concerts?
It should refer to both examples you cited.
Michael
Washington, DC
First is going 'lite' second is deadheading
the important issue is whether the workers are on or off the 'clock'.
example, person lives in VCP 'hood but works B divn. travels in uniform on way to work which commences at CI. In imprecise usage he is deadheading while using the Subway (that would be accurate if mainline RR crew were riding ATK say from Metropark into Penn to report for duty on a NYP-DC train) The next question is whether the work which commences at CI includes work which terminates anywhere other than CI, does the crew get paid to "return" to point of origin even though no further work is being performed and the 'train' has been turned over to some other personnel?
Traveling 'off the clock' doesn't make a difference for us - it's called 'going to work.'
As for your next question, the answer is yes. I currently have such a job on Mondays. I start at City Hall and clear at Kings Highway-N and get paid to return to City Hall, even though I don't need to return there.
Thanks to all for your responses.
thats for NYCT. for us Railroad folk, deadhead can mean a few things. it can mean the movement of any Revenue Railroad Equipment WITHOUT passengers. it could be a employee going somewhere while not in regular passenger service. for example, paul does a trip to New Haven, and Back to NY. Then to Stamford. Once at stamford paul either takes a set of equipment back to NY without passengers, or paul just boards a train back to NY. a DEADHEAD is also a railroad car that is for EMPLOYEES only or it is OUT OF SERVICE. for example on LIRR, at night lets say a 10 car train platforms at Rosedale. only 6 cars open while the head 4 are dark. on Metro North it means the same. especially when u might to a station like marble hill and wonder why a 10 car train only has 8 cars opening. cause the last 2 or 4 might be for us with door keys but for passengers they cannot ride. take it from personal experience. everytime i enter the train, if the engineer dont know me, they ask me for my I.D even WHEN I HAVE MY MNR VEST ON
" get paid to return to City Hall, even though I don't need to return
there. "
That was what I was trying to pin down. It is a real conundrum to me whether you should be paid to return to City Hall if you have no need to. OTOH we both suspect TA would then schedule runs to terminate at Far Rock, or some other out of the way place. I assume you are NOT paid to travel to City Hall from home.
The way things are set up, crews are supposed to sign in and sign out at the same location. Due to train storage needs and schedules, this is not always possible without paying lots of overtime. So you end up with jobs like mine. Obviously, I can't leave a train at City Hall for a new crew to pick up, and the schedules don't need an N train to lay-up at 1300 at City Hall, so it makes sense for me to finish at an N terminal. I clear at Kings Highway at 1224, 41 minutes before my 8 hours is over, which is the travel time to City Hall. Had they forced me to do the half trip from KH-N to Astoria. I would end up clearing at 1355. Now they're paying me 50 + 25 late clear (well, built-in overtime, but you get the idea) and 35 + 18 travel time to City Hall - which I would now use, since I would need to get to Whitehall to go home. When I finish at KH-N, I ride to 59, cross over to the R to 86, then take the bus home.
I wish they would pay me to travel from home to City Hall (or wherever I'm signing in that day) as well as to travel home. I'd be making a small fortune.
My favorite "deadhead in service"
I work with 'dead heads.' They break things, blow them up and grab me for 'troubles.' A motor gearbox oil inspection plug jammed and stripped...drill it for a reverse thread stud remover...feel excessive resistance..stop...measure the oil level and tap the hole for a secured stainless steel bolt to close it up.
The 'deadheads' get the same pay as I do. At least now I get a word of thanks from them...means an awful lot to me. One thing I can still do...hold a lit flashlight to one ear and see the light come out of the other. Don't try that at home! CI Peter
You could also say "they brought it back to the yard DARK"
Well Being home and bored decided to have some fun on the rails.Left KingsHighway N line went to Dekalb for trip over the bridge,got a slant ,Got a weak T/O didnt push it on the bridge I used to do 21 mph on the bridge with no problem he kept it at around 15.Got 34 st had to wait 15 minutes for an F 2 V's came thru ,Went to Roosevelt Island,Staion is very nice. I never knew the area on the Island was nice,Great Views,Neighborhood looked quite nice and calm Not at all Like LIC.Wandered around the Island for around an hour decided to head out to the Rock.Got the F immediately quick ride to Jay with an R 38/32 A pulling in across the Platform. I knew the T/O so we Were
B S ing all the way down,Howard Beach JFK looks Horrible with that Temporary Platform If I was a tourist and this was the first station I saw I would be taking alot of cabs.The Ride on the Flats was nice Train kept up to a nice 43 mph which is good considering some 38's max out at around 39.Broad Channel is a lonely station LOL waiting for the Shuttle I was wondering How many people use that staion.Off to Rockaway Park I was. Beach 116 is still great place,Went to real estae Office to check out rents in the neighborhood not to bad at all,
Stopped at the Local tavern for Liquid Lunch with the Natives ,then the bus back to Flatbush and B 82 home all in all good trip.So that was day 2 of my unpaid vacation only 12 more to go.
Yes, I absolutely love B116th!!
From washingtonpost.com:
New Rail Cars Bound for Orange Line
Metro's Orange Line will get eight additional rail cars starting tomorrow. The addition will mean at least 800 more riders can climb aboard the line during peak travel times.
The new rail cars are part of an order of 192 cars that Metro purchased from CAF USA Inc., a Madrid-based manufacturer. The first 10 cars were phased into service on the Green Line beginning last August. The new cars have a red, white and blue color scheme.
By the end of November, Metro plans to add 10 rail cars to the Yellow Line and eight to the Blue Line. The Red Line is to get 42 of the new cars by next June. Once all 192 cars are running, Metro will be able to run all six-car trains during peak times, instead of a mix of four- and six-car trains.
And from wtopnews.com:
New Train Cars Come to Orange Line
Steve Eldridge, WTOP's Sprawl & Crawl Reporter
WASHINGTON - Starting Wednesday, Metro will add new train cars to the always cramped Orange line.
"Definitely relief is on its way for all those Orange line commuters who are packed in there like sardines," said Metro spokeswoman Lisa Farbstein.
The plan is to convert all of the Orange line trains to six-car trains. Now it has a mix of four- and six-car trains.
The Orange line hasn't seen new cars since 1993.
Eventually, all train cars during the peak hours will be six car trains.
Metro has no time line for the conversion.
After it finishes with the Orange line, six-car trains will be added to the Yellow and Blue lines.
Until now the new rail cars Metro has been buying have been going to the Green line.
A few weeks ago, Ballston/1C and I were trying to figure out where things were going to go once enough cars arrived. All of the articles imply that CAF cars will actually be on the Orange Line, followed by Yellow, Blue, and then Red. The thing I don't get is why 10 cars? As far as we know, no CAF cars have been seen MUed to any other type of car. I think the displaced Breda theory could still happen, but I am not too sure. I don't ride the Orange Line often but hopefully someone will see if the CAF cars are actually there.
Sounds like a good plan. I've ridden the Washington Metro a few times, including a brief trip to DC earlier in the year. It's a great system; easy to use, and has clean and comfortable cars. If possible, can you get a few snapshots of those new cars for us? -Nick
Already have. They are on my website at www.orenstransitpage.com. They are all on the Green Line though since I took them back in June.
The press release on WMATA's site implies its the CAF cars themselves in service. Also, it said all Red and Green Line trains are 6 cars (I saw a 4 car train on the Red Line this morning although it is unusual) and there are about 70 CAF cars in service or in final testing in Greenbelt Yard.
Thank you :-) -Nick
Already have. They are on my website at www.orenstransitpage.com. They are all on the Green Line though since I took them back in June.
The press release on WMATA's site implies its the CAF cars themselves in service. Also, it said all Red and Green Line trains are 6 cars (I saw a 4 car train on the Red Line this morning although it is unusual) and there are about 70 CAF cars in service or in final testing in Greenbelt Yard.
P.S. It left Vienna at 7:32 AM this morning. I would not be surprised if it always makes that run for a few days or weeks.
Can anyone tell me why the #6 Pick-Up (garbage train) has been working along Queens Blvd. IN THE AFTERNOON?
Maybe they had garbage to pick up?
The point of my post is that this is something that is normally done at night so as to incovenience as few people as possible. The garbage train was stopping to pick up garbage at every stop between Queens Plaza and Continental Avenue this afternoon & caused the R train directly behind it to arrive at CTL at least 15 minutes late. I was wondering why the train was no longer out there during the midnight hours.
The "Crosstown Pickup" is running during the day on a trial basis.
I wonder what the TA hopes to find out? How many trains can be plugged behind the pick-up in the middle of the afternoon?
Have faith ... they'll see the gum-up and reassign it to southbound at 0735 ... :)
Southbound local at 0735, and they'll preach louder about the V train is only 5 minutes slower than the expresses.
At least the USSR kept their propaganda believable.
I'm suprised they still do that. I left the E when the V started up and at that time the garbage train was also running during the day, so it has been running for at least a year-and-a-half. I was told they do this because all the GO's on the midnight makes it impossible to pick up the trash. For example, right now on the midnight the 53rd St. corridor is shut down.
I was not aware that this has been going on this long. I just came over from the 7 in June. I figured it had something to do with midnight track work but whenever I asked a dispatcher or stuperintendent they would jsut shrug their shoulders and say "I don't know why it's out here now. All I know is that it's killing my railroad." Thanks for the info, Bill.
People hate to work at night, and where labor is powerful enough (as in the TA) there is a big premium for forcing people to do it. So it is something to be minimized for financial and labor relations reasons.
If we were "thinking" we'd do all car maintenance from 11 pm to 6 am, and save on having all those spares. All the trains could be out at rush hour. If we were "thinking" all garbage would be picked up, and all deliveries made, from midnight to 6 am. The latter was proposed in Manhattan, but that would mean that not only truck drivers but also all the businesses receiving deliveries would have to be up all night.
I think I'll go to bed early tonite. I'm still catching up after catching the first revenue 1/9 train.
People not wanting to work at night is just like people not wanting to commute into the city for a job or not wanting to work in a skyscraper. Don't want to do it, don't take the job. Repairs should be made either at night or during weekends. It would definately make more cars available for rush hours.
That is a misconception. There is repair of bad ordered cars going on 24/7. During the day, additionally on duty are the regular inspection teams in addition to the 24/7 "trouble" men.
Bill: ME ME ME I raise my hand....I RAISE BOTH HANDS. I do regular inspection only upon the abscence of another. I'm jumping up and down...do you see me at the block of track 67??? I'm swinging yellow shoe paddles...oops...slacker just caught shoe paddle edge and my tool belt fell off crushing his chest.
Like term 'bad ordered cars.'
When the next pick comes, I'll return to 180th troubles. Never a dull moment, always on my feet beyond exhaution. Sup gave me a break this Thursday...R142 carbody. Polutschka Comrades...ees pAydaysky! CI Peter
Things don't look pretty here. A fire is in progress at 152nd St and 3rd Avenue in a Duane Reade Pharmacy. It is said to be 3 alrams if not more. I hope it hasn't spread beyond that location. The smoke is everywhere, and a stream of it is going southward.
On the Transit Front, buses are rerouted in the affected area. Also, 2 and 5 service is currently bypassing 3rd Avenue - 149th St.
We'll see how this progresses....
-Stef
HERE'S THE STORY. It's a miracle no one was hurt.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thank God.
The building is quite old, and seems like a piece of history is being lost, dating back to the time when the 3rd Avenue El was standing. I remembered when the old HL Green Store was standing (5 and 10 Store). Geez, I feel old.....
-Stef
Whenever you have economic change in an area, I suspect arson. You get it in areas on the way down, as dirty landlords try to recover some value of their property.
It also occurs on the way up, as landlords want to reinvest (add floors, etc) and attract new tenants, but can't get out of leases or can't afford the loss of income while tearing down and rebuilding. The Hub is on the way up.
I recall walking down Fordham Rd in the 1980s, when business and rents were soaring. I pointed out to a wise old planner than second floors could be rented, but the lost income from the ground floors during demolition and reconstruction would be prohibitive. He said that "private sector urban renewal -- fires" would occur if the incentives that way were strong enough.
Whenever you have economic change in an area, I suspect arson. You get it in areas on the way down, as dirty landlords try to recover some value of their property.
It also occurs on the way up, as landlords want to reinvest (add floors, etc) and attract new tenants, but can't get out of leases or can't afford the loss of income while tearing down and rebuilding. The Hub is on the way up.
These three men are sitting around a pool while on vacation in the Hawaii and start talking amongst themselves. They soon realize that all of them are commercial landlords.
"I had some year, let me tell you!" says one of them. "A fire completely destroyed one of my buildings, but fortunately the insurance company paid me $500,000."
"My year was even stranger," the second landlord says. "One of my buildings was destroyed by a flood, but the insurance company paid me $750,000."
Eagerly, the third landlord asks, "How do you start a flood?"
That's a good one. You must work in insurance.
The farmer's version has the third guy asking "how do you make hail?"
This past weekend I was invited to go on one of the no-passenger HBLR trains to Hoboken Terminal from Pavonia/Newport by the person who did the schedules. Oh man, they are SO not going to finish on time. Check this stuff out:
(Above)We're getting close to the terminal, all the cement trucks in the above photo are for the "On-Time" project.
(Above) We're coming in at like 5mph. Trains were running on a weekend schedule that day (Saturday) and were going to run a weekday schedule on Sunday. I was told that 2 tracks are going to be used for termination while one is going to hold the backup train. Trains were terminating only on one track that day due to construction.
(Above) We're pulling in now...schedule leaves weekend trains a layover time of 7 minutes in the terminal.
(Above) Yes, they were working really hard.
(Above) They better get cracking...
(Above) They'll get it done, one tile at a time.
Hope you enjoyed!
Great shots! I guess they won't finish on time as these pictures prove! I'd love to come up and check it out , but I have some family problems. Maybe next year!
Chuck Greene
Well, it's great that they are making progress.
Personally, I'll take a good job over a quick one.
Query: One of your photos shows a short stretch of concrete ties, then wooden ties as you approach the crossover switches.
Will the wooden ties be replaced by concrete ties?
I'm not exactly sure about that one, but I do know that only the switch was wooden ties. >With such short time remaining on this mega-project, I highly doubt they will ponder replacing the ties. The wood looked fresh as is anyways...maybe when it starts to rot and grow weird stuff on it, then they'll wonder.
Changing from concrete to wooden ties at switches is SOP all over the HBLR. Can't imagine why, but that is the way HBLR is built.
Very nice pics - they have 4 days to go ... think it's possible???
Just to confirm - service is supposed to start on Sunday the 29th for the festival, right?
At high noon.
Well, I heard on the news that the Governor and State Senator Corzine were on hand at the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail opening today...was that for Hoboken? I would assume so...of what is the real story, since the report went by rather quickly?
Cleanairbus
State Senator Corzine
Apologizing in advance for the nitpick; that's US Senator Corzine.
Nice photos, Clayton.
Hopefully we can have a Subtalk "field trip" to the expanded HBLR one of these days.
I believe that ERA has one coming up soon.
Correct! It will be on November 23, 2002. NYD-ERA members and subscribers will receive a flyer with their October mailing, which is scheduled to go out on Thursday, October 3.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thanks. Great Photos!
Very NICE!
N BWY
Nice pics Clayton. Just be careful not to do what Salaam Allah did and get caught taking pics/video in the cab when you're not supposed to be there. We do not want you to be the next person banned from taking any bus/subway/rail pics.
#2099 7 Flushing Express
I was authorized to be in there by the operator, the person who got me the ride, and also on the way to Bayonne the fare enforcers didn't care. Though I had to close the door while going past the yard.
Nice shots!
I'm not a construction expert, but certainly, if they work around the clock the terminal will be ready in time for next Sunday's festivities. The biggest item is the roofing for the platform.
Actually, when they opened our new Albany station here they didn't finish a number of things, including the roofing over the stairs...
see.
Clayton, Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed the photos !
NJT openned a new concourse near the 7 Avenue side of Pennsylvania Station on Monday. It includes a ticket booth, customer service center as well as elevators and stairs to their trains. It can be accessed from both the upper and lower levels although the main portion is at an intermediate location between the two. Its quite a nice place and gives an NJT a place of their own at Penn Station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Great news!
During my vist to the new NJT concourse at Pennsylvania Station I picked up a copy of the new NJT Montclair-Boonton Line Timetable to be effective Sunday,September 29,2002. This week Boonton Line trains started operating over the Montclair Branch into Hoboken on a special ad hoc one week schedule. Beginning next week their will be four services operated over the new line.
1) Montcair Heights-Hoboken (200 series) EMU
2) Hackettstown/Hoboken (1000 series) Diesel
3) Montcclair Heights-Penn Station (6600 series) Electric locomotives
4) Hackettstown-Monclair Heights Shuttle connecting to the Midtown Direct Trains.
I wonder how long the two names will last? Years ago when the Erie-Lackawanna merged the DL&W Boonton Line with the Erie NY & Greenwood Lake Railway the timetables carried both names for a while and then just became the Boonton Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I thought electric service was going as far as Great Notch.
Originally it was supposed to go to Great Notch. Now they've decided to run passenger service as far as a new Montclair State University station being built west (north) of Montclair Heights. The electric yard is between Great Notch and the under construction MSU station. MSU station is still a few years away.
CG
Supposed to be, but they electrification people didn't talk to the tracks people. The result is you can't get from Great Notch station to Great Notch yard using electrified track (you'd have to reverse move to Montclair Heights and then enter the yard).
Once electrification is extended further, it will be possible for electric trains to access the yard from Great Notch station.
Actually to NJT officials Booton is permenatly retired. In our employee schedules it is called the "Montclair Line". They use "Booton" in the passengers schedules as kind of an advertisement scheme.
This whole project is a big mistake waiting to bite NJT's ass. As it is, the M&E division has two seperate routes into Hoboken with a capasity of 3 tracks. After this move they will have to funnel all of the service over the two track Pasiac Draw. If they need to expand service or if that bridge craps out NJT is up screwd's creek without a paddle.
As it is, the M&E division has two seperate routes into Hoboken with a capasity of 3 tracks. After this move they will have to funnel all of the service over the two track Pasiac Draw. If they need to expand service or if that bridge craps out NJT is up screwd's creek without a paddle.
I thought a major reason for instituting the Montclair Connection was that the bridge on the former Boonton line had already crapped out. A conductor (on the M&E, who hadn't worked the Boonton line for a while) told us that the bridge in question had a 5 or 10 mph speed restriction, rolling only (no acceleration or braking permitted while on the bridge).
Montclair not-yet connected
DB Jct (The bridge) speed limit was 25mph for passenger equipment and 10mph for all other equipment. That bridge did not have that many problems, but it was old and costly to maintain. It only opened a few times a week.
Today we do the Hustle.
Perhaps this has you thinking of that dance from the 70^Òs and the song the late Van McCoy made famous. In this case though, you are thinking incorrectly. Well, that^Òs what you get for thinking. We will look at the job of Hostler and how one had to be able to hustle to perform the duties. Some days when I was hostling, I really had to hustle to keep up with all the work. When called on the radio, I know of several Hostlers who answered by saying just that, "Hustler, over."
On 5 April, 1979, I entered this wonderful world of engine service at the position of Hostler. There are different types of hostling positions, inside and outside. In some cases, the Outside Hostler may be called a Herder or Hostler-Herder. Essentially though, it is the same type of job. As a Hostler, you are hostling engines around.
To get started, we are going to look at the difference between inside and outside Hostlers. There is a huge difference. Inside Hostlers are restricted to working totally within a locomotive servicing area. These are designated servicing limits often indicated by a bulletin, timetable special instructions or terminal instructions. Inside Hostlers were not allowed under the rules and oftentimes collective bargaining agreements, to operate outside the servicing limits.
Outside Hostlers were just that, Hostlers that could operate outside of locomotive servicing limits. In order to perform such service, they were usually given more training as well as an extensive rules test. Outside Hostlers were allowed onto the mainline to pickup or deliver power. Oftentimes power on certain trains that operated through a terminal would need servicing or to be completely or partially changed out. This might be a location where the train was required to get a 1000 mile inspection. While the train was being inspected, the power would get serviced or switched out. If there were not a mainline fuel station at this location, it would be taken to a servicing facility to get fueled and sanded, a daily inspection and supplies. They could also deliver or retrieve power to various locations within a yard, terminal or outlying points within a defined perimeter.
Prior to Locomotive Engineer Certification, Hostlers were allowed to be Fireman or non-promoted Engineers. Since certification, what would be an Outside Hostler or Herder must be a promoted Engineer with a Train Service Certification. Inside Hostlers are required to be licensed as Servicing Engineers and are restricted to designated servicing tracks only.
Hostlers were not allowed to handle cars outside of the servicing facilities, only light engine moves. Within servicing facilities, Hostlers could move cars around if allowed by collective bargaining agreements. These were generally sand cars spotted for unloading at the sanding facility, locomotive wheel cars, prime mover cars (used to transport diesel engines used in locomotives), fuel cars and the like. They were not allowed to move these cars outside of the facility under any circumstances though. In a situation where they were not going to spot the cars, a switch crew would generally bring them into the facility and set them out there for the Hostler to handle.
Hostlers came under the Fireman craft. On most properties they were represented by the United Transportation Union when this organization was formed with the merger of several operating craft unions including the Brotherhood of Locomotive Fireman and Engineers (not to be confused with the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers or BLE, which is a separate union). In the latter 1980^Òs, the UTU negotiated the Hostlers jobs away on many properties. Now they are preformed by mechanical department personnel who have been qualified as Servicing Engineers under the FRA requirements. However, they are restricted to inside service only.
What are considered Herder jobs must be handled by Train Service Engineers. To operate outside of the servicing area, you have to be a promoted Engineer and there are no exceptions to this requirement. The herder is essentially an Outside Hostler.
The Indiana Harbor Belt used to have several Herder jobs at one time. The Herders could, and did roam the system to handle power. These jobs were all assigned to promoted Engineers though. These were actually pretty good assignments, far better than an Inside Hostler job. As recently as the mid 1990^Òs, these jobs were still working. In my days at the IHB, I worked the Herder job at Blue Island on various occasions. I believe these jobs have been eliminated since I left there.
With all that in mind, we go back to my hostling days. There were four of these assignments at Yard Center. Generally, the four youngest employees on the Engineer^Òs seniority list were forced to these jobs. Once upon a time up to the early or mid 70^Òs there were two Hostlers per shift. They were pretty well despised by most, as they were the lowest paying engine service jobs. In addition, they were also the ones that kept you running the most. I was in great physical shape during my hostling days. All the running around and climbing on and locomotives day in and day out for months was better than many workout regimes.
The four-hostling assignments worked the following schedule: The daylight turn worked Monday through Friday from 0700 to 1500. The afternoon turn worked 1500 to 2300 with Monday and Tuesday off. The night turn worked from 2300 to 0700 off on Wednesday and Thursday. The relief job worked all the days off of the regular assignments and had Thursday and Friday off. The relief job was actually my favorite of the four positions. The way it was set up to work, you actually got two extra days off per week. Going from days to afternoons, you had a 24-hour break. Likewise when going from afternoons to nights, you had that same 24-hour break. I used that time to my advantage too. Hey, I was young and single. I couldn^Òt stay out too late on Fridays and Saturdays owing to the 0700 start the following mornings, but I made up for that on Sundays and Tuesdays.
The scheduling of these assignments left Thursday nights as the odd day to be covered. There were several ways to cover the vacancy. The first choice was to offer the regular night guy the chance to come in and work a rest day for time and one half pay. If he passed, they would pull a Fireman from a yard assignment to work the vacancy. If there were no Fireman working, they would hold the afternoon guy (or gal) over to cover. These were hours of service assignments, so the held over person could only work twelve hours. They would call the daylight guy to come in at 0300, when the afternoon Hostler went dead on the hours of service.
On rare occasion if there were no other options left available, they would call an Engineer from the extra board to cover a vacancy. If they did this, the Engineer called would be paid at Engineer^Òs rate of pay. This was like cutting off their arm and beating them over the head with it. They had no problem paying time and one half at Hostler rate, but sang the blues if they had to pay Engineer^Òs straight time rate for eight hours.
On the evening of 5 April, I began training to become a Hostler. I arrived at the Yard Center Diesel Shop on Indiana Avenue in Dolton, IL at 2000 hours (the time I was rested). I met up with the shift Foreman who then introduced me around. I was then sent off with the regular Hostler to begin to learn the ropes. This night it would be one Rowena Trotter. Weanie has been mentioned in the past here, so some of you are probably familiar with the name. Weanie taught me some of the basics I would need to know right away. This included how to start and shut down a locomotive, how to change controlling ends of a locomotive consist, proper radio procedure, the layout of the land and various policies and procedures within the servicing facility. There was a great deal to learn and three nights of training only scratched the surface. Much of what I needed to learn came along in time as I worked the job. I spent three twelve-hour nights learning the most essential of information and was then cut loose and allowed to work on my own. My first night solo was 8 April starting at 2300 hours.
The main purpose of hostling at Yard Center Diesel was to move the power around the servicing facilities placing it where the mechanical forces needed it to be for service and repairs. Inbound power would be turned in by road or yard crews onto either the sand track at the south end or the east or west fuel track at the north end of Yard Center Diesel. We didn^Òt use this big long name for the place though we all simply called it the roundhouse. The building was not round but actually rectangular. The roundhouse name was (and continues this day) as a carryover from the days of the semi-circular buildings with turntables used for servicing steam engines.
Once the power was turned in, the shift Foreman would usually instruct the Hostler what to do with it. There was a planned method, but oftentimes this changed based upon what was going on at that precise moment. The inbound power might be brought on to the east or west fuel track. Here it could be fueled and sanded. There were also lines for lube oil and water. If the units were not going to be brought inside the house for servicing, any required fluids could be added on the fuel tracks. Generally, the inbound power was spotted on the east fuel track. On occasion, if the power was to be service and turned right back out without needing a trip inside the house, it might be pulled right onto the west fuel track. But other times they would instruct me to bring right into the house or place it front of the door to be ready to bring in when the time came.
The west fuel track was generally the track where outbound power was spotted for the final outbound inspection. It could also be fueled, lubed and watered here as well. Brake shoes could be changed; brake rigging adjusted and minor repairs could be handled on both of the fuel tracks as well.
As required, power would be pulled inside the house itself on track 8. This track ran completely through the building as there were doors on both ends and this track tied into both ends of the facility. Inside the house, more extensive repairs and servicing could be performed. There was a pit underneath track 8 to allow for easy access for any issues needing to be addressed on the underside of the locomotives. Actually, track 8 was built on pillars allowing for the entire area underneath the track to be open for totally unrestricted access to the underside of the locomotives. A walkway was located along the length of the east side of this track inside the house allowing for easy access to the "top deck" of the locomotive.
Track 8 could hold four, four axle locomotives completely inside the shop, or three, six axle locomotives. On occasion, they would spot four, six axle locomotives here with a portion of one of them sticking out and one end, the other or even both ends depending how they had you spot them. Using this method led to problems on occasion and we^Òll discuss that later.
In addition to track 8, there were two other tracks in the house, tracks 6 and 7. These were both stub-ended tracks at the north end of the building that each held one unit. Locomotives spotted here for service usually had bigger problems. Wheels, springs and traction motors could be changed out on these two tracks as there was a drop table underneath both of them. Spotting the locomotive as required on the drop table would allow for this type of work to be performed. Top deck work could also be handled here such as changing out power assemblies.
There were several crafts of employees working at the roundhouse. Machinists, Electricians, Car Inspectors and Laborers all staffed this facility. Most of the Car Inspectors generally worked on the adjacent RIP track (Repair in Place) side, but one was assigned to the locomotive side. On occasion, an additional Car Inspector was required to work on the locomotive side. Certain types of repairs, such as window or door change outs and body and step work went to them.
The Hostler was required to perform all the movements of locomotives in conjunction with the mechanical forces. This might mean checking out something mechanical with a Machinist such as rolling a unit for flat spots or testing a speedometer. It could also mean checking for some electrical problems with an Electrician. It could also include performing locomotive air brake tests and load tests when preparing units for their runs.
There was also a fair amount of switching out of locomotives. Just because they came in together, it didn^Òt mean the same consist of locomotives would go out together. Yard Center Diesel routinely handled monthly and 92-day inspections of locomotives as well as the certain routine maintenance. A three unit consist might arrive and the middle unit might be due a 92 day test. The other two units might just need routine servicing and be scheduled to go out sooner or later, either together or separately on different trains. Or, one of these units might be coming due a major inspection such as an annual or semi-annual test. These tests were not done at Yard Center, but instead were handled at shops like North Little Rock, St Louis, Houston and Kansas City. So this might require having to switch units out.
And then there were units that arrived dead, or in serious mechanical or electrical distress. The problem might be significant enough a problem as to require the unit to be shipped out of Yard Center dead in consist back to one of the above mentioned shops for repairs. Of course, this meant more switching.
I had a Laborer assigned to me as my helper. At the beginning of our tour of duty, the Foreman would give everybody a list of what trains and power were en route and their scheduled arrival times. This sheet also contained all the outbound trains, the power assignments and scheduled departure times. This gave all of us an idea of what was in store for our day. In addition to this information, also shown were the locomotives due in that were scheduled for the various inspections or maintenance to be performed at Yard Center Diesel. Any units that were experiencing en route difficulties and failures or those that had died and could not be restarted for whatever reason were also listed.
Being that Yard Center was a joint facility with the L&N, both MoPac and L&N power were serviced at the roundhouse. The L&N, as part of the Family Lines Rail System also routinely operated Seaboard Coast Line units which also made appearances on a regular basis. Both railroads often leased additional motive power from other railroads which also showed up. Likewise, any run-through power from other railroads also appeared. Rio Grande, Southern Pacific, Southern Railway Conrail, Frisco, the Katy, Grand Trunk Western and Chessie System locomotives often visited Yard Center Diesel.
My helper and I would use the information on this sheet to try to set ourselves up for moves we would have to make throughout the day. A good Foreman could really help here as well as they could try to have you position certain locomotives on certain tracks to have them where you could easily access them.
Working with a good Foreman made your life easier. They didn^Òt have you running all over the place making a bunch of extra or frivolous moves. They would tell you what needed to be done and let you have at it. You made most of your own decisions. If there were changes, they would call you and let you know. If you got everything done they required you got a break. They would call you as needed. Of course, it was up to you as Hostler to be mindful of any power that might get turned in. Being that we had numerous yard jobs working here, yard power could get turned in at any time.
Bad Foremen could literally have you making moves just for the sake of making moves. Some could not stand to see the Hostler sitting still for more than a couple of minutes. The good ones would give you the information you needed and let you have at it.
The bad Foreman did not know how to set themselves up and as a result, you made all sorts of extra and sometimes, totally ridiculous moves. They would have you bury some locomotive some place only to realize they need that engine in the house twenty minutes later. So, we would have to go and uncover it and move it to where they desired.
Of course, no matter how good or bad the Foreman, there was the always popular unpredictable that came along and threw a wrench into all the plans. One locomotive failure could really jam up the works and undo everything that had been done thus far. Discovering a previously unknown problem on some inbound power could also make things crazy. And if the FRA happened to show up to check everything out, well then all plans generally went out the window. A couple of unforeseen problems and suddenly, you are running around like a maniac. When the FRA arrived, you needed track shoes or a jet pack to rapidly carry you around.
Some days it seemed like you would never stop running, while other days you might have a decent day of it. There were also the days when everything seemed to happen in spurts. You would have a lull, then go like mad for a while, then another lull and then go like mad again. Saturday mornings always seemed to be the worst. It seems like there were always five or six sets of power coming in rapid fire.
In addition to moving the locomotives around, the Hostler had to make certain all outbound power was sufficiently supplied with such amenities as drinking water, ice (on units equipped with coolers instead of refrigerators), paper towels, toilet paper or crew packs (which were packets containing paper towels, toilet paper, a toilet seat liner, garbage bag and moist towelettes), garbage bags, a broom, fusees, torpedoes, spare air hoses, knuckles, a hammer, chisel and a wrench. The cab of each locomotive had to be checked to assure it had been swept out; all garbage bags emptied, windows washed and toilets cleaned.
It was also the responsibility of the Hostler to turn off the lights not required on trailing units. This would include cab, gauge, number and class lights. All safety lights like platform, ground and step lights had to be illuminated. All windows and doors on trailing units were supposed to be closed, the awnings over the windows pulled into the down position, rear view mirrors and wing windows pulled in and all radios in trailing units were supposed to be turned off.
All multiple unit air hoses not being used were required to be placed into their holders. The covers on snowplows were supposed to be closed and locked into position. Multiple unit jumper cables not required for use were supposed to be stowed into the dummy receptacles or removed and placed into the back of the engine room behind the air compressor.
The Hostler always had to mindful of the quality of the cab as well. You didn^Òt want to send one out as lead unit that had a cab in sorry shape. If there were gaps around doors and windows, poor heaters or units with very foul odors, you didn^Òt want to have that one as the lead unit. If you sent one out like this, it was a certain bet the Engineer who boarded it would complain and you would wind up bringing them back to switch them out or turn the entire consist.
To give you an idea as to how much running one might have to do, here are some moves as required. First off, I am instructed to go pull the sand track where some inbound power has just been turned in. My helper and I take the quarter mile walk to get them. While he removes the derail and blue flag that protects the track, I climb aboard the power. Sometimes several sets of power are turned in at once, so I have to go through them to make sure they are coupled together and the brakes are all released. When everything is ready to go and the helper is also ready, I pull the power past the derail and blue flag and stop. My helper puts them back into position, climbs aboard and I pull them down to where the Foreman has instructed. In this case, it is in front of the door on track 8. The plan is we will pull right into the house when given the OK and couple onto the power already in there.
As we arrive in front of the door, it opens and the blue lights on either side of the door are extinguished. The Foreman calls and tells me it is OK to pull them right into the building, couple on and shove the power in there out the other end, then spot this power up for servicing. We pull in and couple up. The helper walks to the north end, releasing the brakes on all the engines in the house, opening the door on that end (if it is not already opened), steps outside at the north end removing the derail and blue flag there. With this all complete he gives me a sign to bring them ahead.
I shove the power all out the north end of the house on track 8 clearing the walkway just outside the door and stop. The helper applies a brake on one these engines, pulls the pin lifter to uncouple, gives me the signal to back up and I shove back into the house and spot them for the mechanical people to service. Once spotted and secured, the Foreman instructs me on the next round of moves.
I have to board the power we just shoved out of the house, set the middle unit of these three into the house on track 7 for service and take the remaining two over to the west fuel track leaving them north of the derail at the north end. With these moves accomplished, I am to head over to the oil track and dig a unit out of there to marry up with the two I left north of the derail on the west fuel track. Of course, the unit I need to get is not at the north end, so I have to pull all the engines up to the one I need out of there and set it over on top of the other two on the west and then set all these back in on the oil track.
With this all complete, I am told the power spotted on the west fuel track is ready to set out to one of the outbound tracks. I make my way up through the cabs of all this power checking them all out as I go along. My helper waits at the south end of the power we left north of the derail on the west. He has dropped the derail and blue flag and will have me shove back against this power. I will then pull this power onto the west, cut it off and run the power that was on the west out one of the two outbound tracks. Of course this requires my helper to do even more walking as he has to drop the derail and blue flag in front of me as well as put all of them up behind me after everything is cleared up.
Once the outbound power is taken out to one of the outbound tracks and secured, I have the quarter mile walk back to the roundhouse for another round of moves.
In addition to just moving the power around, there were times power had to be turned. We didn^Òt have a turntable like some railroads. We had a wye track. The engine or engines that needed to be turned would be run around the wye. Sometimes the power could be left on the wye, other times it was brought back to the roundhouse.
All brand new power ordered by the MoPac was delivered to Yard Center and placed into service there. All new power built by Electro Motive Division that was ordered by the L&N and their Family Lines System cousins was also delivered to Yard Center and placed into service here as well. In the time I hostled, both MoPac and Family Lines purchased a great deal of new power. This gave me the opportunity to work with brand new power that had never been run previously. It all had the "new car" smell to it. This also gave me a chance to meet some people from EMD who came out to test the power before it was placed into service. I used this opportunity to ask them questions about the new power and EMD locomotives in general.
In 1980, MoPac obtained fifty-two GP38-2 locomotives from the Rock Island estate after they ceased operations. These units were brought to Yard Center Diesel for evaluation and those that were in sound mechanical shape were placed into service here. Several had to be sent to North Little Rock, site of MoPac^Òs largest shop on the system, for further work. Some of these units were in halfway decent shape and some were rather sorry, although from outward appearances they looked pretty good anyway. I got the chance to run power new to the MoPac.
I had mentioned much earlier about problems with leaving locomotives sticking out of one end or the other (or both) on track 8. Here is what can go wrong when they are in a rush. I was instructed by the Foreman to pull three units out of the south end of the house on track 8. A fourth unit was there as well, sticking out the north end of the building. It was a cold day and they had the doors closed as far as they could to keep winter out. Being the locomotive was sticking out a bit, the door was only closed down to the short hood nose off this unit. In fact, the door itself was resting upon the nose itself.
Needless to say, I questioned this move. I was told by the Foreman the north unit had been cut away from the rest, was secured and it wasn^Òt going anywhere. I protested that the door should be opened all the way but was told to do as I was instructed. Okay, you^Òre the boss. So I began to pull.
There was a crunching, sort of screeching sound being made as that rear unit started to move and pull on that partially closed door. Before I got stopped, the bottom several panels of the door had been torn off and several others were damaged; so much for that rear unit being cut off. Of course, the Foreman immediately tried to place the blame upon me. Off we went to see the General Diesel Foreman in his office upstairs.
"Splain this one to me Lucy!"
When all was said and done, it was learned the Foreman forgot to tell his people to cut off that unit and tie it down there. He sure was thinking about it though. I was off the hook.
There were other situations resulting from Foremen in a hurry. In one situation, a Foreman instructed a Hostler to set the power on the west fuel track out as it was ready to go. The Hostler was sitting on this power. His helper went and lined the switch and dropped the blue flag and derail. Nobody bothered to check everything closely. They quickly discovered this power was still being fueled. That is, after they ripped the fuel hoses off from the fuel rack.
When I gained enough seniority to be able to bid out of the roundhouse and into a Fireman^Òs job, I did so in a hurry. However, once in awhile I would get yanked back over there for a day or night or even a week. Once I entered the formal Engineer^Òs training program, I was exempt from hostling during the training period. After I was promoted to Engineer in 1981, I was forced back to Hostling. That seniority thing, or lack thereof, again.
In September of that year, the MoPac and L&N worked out a deal to bring the Monon South Hammond Engineers over to work at Yard Center when L&N^Òs South Hammond Yard was closed and the operations consolidated at Yard Center. This put those guys behind me in seniority while some sort of agreement was worked out with the BLE Divisions representing both groups of Engineers and the carriers. That entire situation is a column of its own too, and I have actually been picking at it a bit and will complete it one of these days.
At the very end of November 1983, I made a move to a Fireman^Òs slot. We had an experimental agreement with the carrier to allow this. I had been on the Engineer^Òs extra board but wanted to have regular days off. There were all those holidays coming in December as well as my birthday to celebrate, so I wanted to be able to plan for such. I made the dreadful mistake of not checking to see who would be on vacation that month. There was a Hostler on vacation and as it worked out, I was the youngest Fireman on days. Guess who got yanked over for that little chore? I spent the entire month at the roundhouse and as luck would have it, this turned out to be one of the coldest Decembers in recent memory.
I spent the entire month working in lots of bitter cold and snow. There were numerous locomotive problems and failures related to the cold weather. As a result, I spent all of my days that month running around like a chicken with his head cut off. All of that running around kept me from freezing I guess. There were also several mishaps at the roundhouse involving low speed collisions of locomotives causing damage to several of them. Fortunately for me though, none of them involved yours truly.
In true railroad fashion to save a buck, the powers that be annulled my job on Christmas Day and the day after, both of which were regular scheduled work days for me. I took full advantage of this getting to spend Christmas Eve night with the little dolly I was dating back then and Christmas Day with the family. I capitalized on having the day after Christmas off and the little dolly and I took the day and went to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.
In true railroad fashion, the powers that be at the MoPac discovered they screwed up big time. Apparently, they were not figuring on any trains coming into Chicago during the daylight hours the day after Christmas. I guess they also had completely forgotten about the outbound trains and yard assignments that would operate that day as well. All of a sudden, they have all kinds of engines to hostle and nobody to hostle them. DOH! Sure enough, while I was getting ready to go out, the phone rings. I was in the wash cycle of getting ready, so I let the answering machine handle the telephone chores instead of tracking water through my apartment. Good thing too. When I finally got to it and listened to the message, it was the railroad calling wanting to cancel the annulment and have me come to work. Oh ya sure, I^Òll be calling right back. I didn^Òt take this call and was out the door. As I was leaving to pick up the dolly, the phone began to ring again. Needless to say, I didn^Òt stop and get it.
The following day, I heard all kinds of attitude from the Caller and the General Diesel Foreman about where was I and why didn^Òt I call them back when they called? I simply told them I was annulled and had gone away for the Holiday. I was not obligated to wait for a phone call in case they changed their mind. The bulletin annulling my job was silent about the same. Therefore, I am not in trouble and not concerned about what they are threatening me with in regards to not protecting. And when all was said and done, I did not get a phone call from anybody who is anybody, nor was there a letter inviting me to appear at a "fair and impartial" investigation.
As a Hostler, I was not allowed to head home until my relief arrived. Most of them were pretty good and always showed up a few minutes early. There was one or two though, that always had a difficult time arriving on time. One of them was routinely twenty to thirty minutes late, just about everyday. The first few times I let it slide. But when I realized this was his standard operating mode, I decided it was time to square up. I started to claim anything at all in excess of eight hours as overtime. I showed the time he arrived as my off duty time. I got questioned about this and told them that I was not going to donate my time because he cannot ever seem to arrive on time.
He was called onto the carpet and warned to arrive on time or be faced with discipline.
With this lecture, he began to behave. But then he whined to me about my getting him into trouble. I told him to show up on time and we would not need to discuss the situation and that I wasn^Òt the one showing up late, so how could I have gotten him in trouble? He seemed to be doing that on his own.
With that he came up with a new plan. He would ask me to "cover" him on a certain day as he knew he would be late. He claimed he would make it up to me by coming in early one day allowing me to depart early. He burned me once. The day he was supposed to be in thirty minutes early to spell me, not only was he not early, he was late. Claimed he had car trouble. Car trouble seemed to happen to him at least three days per week. Eventually it was learned there was trouble all right, but it was not with the car; it was with the bottle.
As I mentioned earlier, it was generally the four youngest men or women on the seniority list that were forced into the roundhouse. On occasion though, one guy who was ahead of me in seniority that would mark up there and work there for a month. He was looking for weekends off when he had things going on away from the railroad.
Big changes came after the merger with the Union Pacific (none of them for the better for Chicago Terminal employees). The Family Lines merged into one big company called Seaboard System and they also made changes. They decided to pull their business out of Yard Center in favor of the Belt Railway of Chicago^Òs Clearing Yard. They also built a new intermodal facility right along side of Clearing Yard in Bedford Park. With these changes, all of their power stopped being serviced at Yard Center.
Several switch jobs were pulled off. Then, MoPac management decided to move most of their business out of Yard Center and over to the Belt as well. This chopped off even more jobs. All of a sudden, hostling jobs looked pretty good. It is amazing how good a bad job can look when it is the difference between that and unemployment. At first, I could hold them. Then things got worse and I was bumped out of the roundhouse and onto the extra board. Getting forced out of the roundhouse was akin to being kicked out of hell. I began to work three days a week with no kind of job guarantee or protection. But that topic is for another column at another time.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, © 2002 by JD Santucci
Why does the mta have may 2002 schedules on the website? Shouldn't they have september 2002 up there? I'm trying to see when's the last 2 express at night from times square.
Why does the mta have may 2002 schedules on the website? Shouldn't they have september 2002 up there?
Why don't you find an email link on the site to notify them of the problem. :-)
I;m sure it isn't a problem. It's just taking time to update the maps.
i was on the Q84 this morning watching the mainline, memorizing my signals and naming them because im trying to get into engineer when it comes out. anyways i look up and on the tracks on the mainline at 165th, i see a 4 car set of M7! couldnt read the signs, but they still testing it! however, according to Train Crews. its supposed to start running later in october. if i see it on a long beach ima let you know LOL.
I'm glad I'm back on. My computer was temporarily on the fritz and I was hoping I would get on today so I could write this post. Forty five years ago today the Brooklyn Dodgers played their last game in Brooklyn. They defeated the Pittsburgh Pirates 2-0 behind Danny McDevitt. They finished the season on the road and a week later announced they were deserting Brooklyn. Even though they came my way, I never took to the LA version and despise them to this day.
It is a shame that the Dodgers moved to Los Angeles. Part of it is the City's fault since they turned down the owner's reauest to build a new stadium elsewhere on Brooklyn according to an earlier post. If that new stadium had been built, the Dodgers would still be in Brooklyn perhaps.
#3 West End Jeff
I think it was to be built over the Flatbush Av LIRR terminal. In those days, the LIRR was still privately owned. A big shareholder....Walter O'Malley! The stadium would have enriched his RR property tremendously.
Unfortunately, even though that was obviously a conflict of interest, it may have changed the course of history in Downtown Brooklyn had it been built.
By the way....he also owned the (previously not valuable) land that Dodger Stadium sits on today. So he was going to make out either way.
Too bad that Walter O'Malley couldn't keep the Trolley Dodgers in Brooklyn. Though no one dodges trolleys in Brooklyn anymore, at least there could have been one reminder that people used to dodge the trolleys there.
#3 West End Jeff
One of the songs Gladys Gooding played at that last game was May the Good Lord Bless and Keep You. Roy Campanella recalled that everyone knew the Dodgers were leaving even though they hadn't officially announced it yet, and the fans who turned out waved goodbye after the last out. Campy caught his final game in Philly a week later. His spikes were bronze plated afterwards and dislpayed in his home.
Thanks. I didn't know about Campanella's spikes being bronzed but since he was from the Nicetown section of Philly it doesn't surprise me. What used to surprise me was when I would listen on radio to the road Dodger games (they didn't televise outside of New York until after I left town) was all the cheering for the Dodgers. I learned there were a lot of blacks that went to the game to see Jackie, Roy, Don and later Joe Black. The Phils didn't integrate until around 1955 and so Philly was inundated with Dodger fans.
Roger Kahn mentioned the bronzed spikes in his chapter on Campy in The Boys of Summer.
I realize that the M-7 is not in revenue service yet, but has anyone caught a sighting at Penn Station? I haven't seen this train myself, and that location would be the most convenient for me to get a glimpse. -Nick
Yes, they"ve been spotted at Penn before. There may have even been a newspaper article or two to that effect.
Mark
And I have pics of the testing at Penn Station...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
cleanairbus@hotmail.com
I saw the M-7 on Monday entering Babylon station from the east. When I first spotted it (side ciew crossing over Deer Park Avenue) my first thought was that it was one of the World's Fair electric cars converted to diesel use. Then my next impression was that it was one of the double-deck cars (also because of the windows), then it dawned on me what it was.
ive seen the cars parked at the Hillside facility. the best time to see them there is during rush hour when most of LIRR's fleet is in service. I cant wait to see them operate. Heard they will begin serive on the Long Beach Branch-hopefully it will go to Flatbush Ave.
Your best bet would be to get to Penn at about 12:15PM and see if you can spot it on track level. For the last three days, a 6-car M-7 train has been making simulated stops on the Babylon branch, arriving Rockville Centre at about 1:00 PM. My guess is that it leaves Penn at about 12:25 - 12:30 or so. On Monday, the train was even announced on the loudspeaker which tells of train delays ("The eastbound train to ---, scheduled to depart at 1:23 has been reported at Woodside operating 16 minutes early").
The lead two and rear two cars have seats installed. The middle two just have barrels inside. Also the simulated stops are kind of interesting in that the train opens it's doors on the non-platform side. On the Babylon elevated stations, that must be an interesting sight from the street below.
CG
Thank you for that information...I'll have to check it out during my next trip to NYC! -Nick
Also the simulated stops are kind of interesting in that the train opens it's doors on the non-platform side. On the Babylon elevated stations, that must be an interesting sight from the street below.
Unfortunately, not a first. "Oops."
Watch the crap!
Mark
Watch that first step...it's a doozy!
Hi everyone! Just posting to say I can just about get onto the internet now, having arrived at Leicester University on Sunday. I don't know how much I'll be posting, but at least you'll all know I haven't died or anything... that earthquake on my first night was scary though!!!
James
jad29@le.ac.uk
Wow ... you mean that rumble wasn't a really GOOD date? :)
Wow ... you mean that rumble wasn't a really GOOD date? :)
Don't you know? - he caused the earthquake on a really GOOD date. :)
ATTA BOY! :)
TOP 10 REASONS WHY CYBER SEX IS BETTER
10. If the date goes bad, changing your Screen Name is easier then
changing your real name.
9. Bathing, dressing, supplying atmosphere is optional.
8. If you get drunk and black out, you only wake up next to a keyboard.
7. You can exercise your offensive habits without embarrassing yourself.
6. Viagra! Who needs Viagra?
5. Your partner could have more of a personality than your inflatable
friends.
4. Three words: No shotgun weddings.
3. All guys look like George Clooney and all women like Pamela Anderson.
2. They never have to know you live in your parent's basement.
1. If you catch a virus, only your computer dies.
Say it is 2009, and the R-160 order is almost complete, as the order nears its end, there is a report coming out of Coney Island that several R-160 trucks have cracks in them, serious cracks, that could cause an accident if left un-noteced. Then another weak passes and more inspections occur and more sets of R-160 are reporting serious cracks. A similar scenario to the R-44/46 fiasco. So what would you do if that were to occur, with the order so huge, that taking the cars off the road would cause serious problems in service. I know this is a situation, what would you do though? *this situation is highly unlikely, but you never know*
Are the new inspections occuring *because* the first cracks were found? Do yaw dampers not get checked on subway cars continuously? Not that it couldn't happen, but would it be likely that a lot of cracks would show up at the same age?
Still no September 15 map at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/route/
The September 8 one is still there (8-( .
Our webmaster (Dave) is on vacation. So even if Mike has updated the map it will have to wait until Dave gets back and has time to put it in.
I guess we've been very good children because usually when Dave goes away, he puts the board into read-only mode.
--Mark
That and he probably didn't tell us so we'd think he'd be around and know to behave ourselves.
I've already sent 9/15 map to Dave but we'll have to wait till he returns and post it.
Michael Calcagno
What's the difference between the sept. 8 and sept 15 maps?
1/9 go to South Ferry, 2 express in Manhattan, 3 to New Lots.
House Appropriations committee Republicans drafted a bill funding Amtrak with $760 million instead of the $1.2 billion needed to avoid long distance train cutbacks. Trains to be cut are the Texas Eagle, Three Rivers, the Southwest Chief, the Sunset Limited, the Kentucky Cardinal, and the Pennsylvanian. These trains lose more than $200 per passenger. The trains could be saved if the states made up the difference.
[caution: political statement] “The GOP language, which is not included in the Senate Appropriations Committee bill, is certain to be modified or deleted in an eventual compromise bill. Nonetheless, political insiders expressed surprise that the Republicans would take such an action before the November elections. The six trains pass through the districts of several key Republicans who are in tight races.”
Washington Post story
So with Republicans opposed to this bill it wont go anywhere far. They should just give them all of the money and fight later on.
THANK YOU!!! Thank you for telling us, and fer krissakes, don't be NERVOUS about the "political angle" ... every damned railroad in America is *RULED* by politics ... it's one thing to call a particular elected droid a failure in public, it's QUITE another to identify enemies of RAIL (which we are allegedly all INTERESTED IN) for what they are. ***BUS SNIFFERS, woofing up WAY too much tailpipe***. We know who they are, they step in peanuts. :)
Railroads and subways ***ARE*** politics ... sad, but true.
And here is the Times' version. It is completely devoid of political innuendo, simply mentioning that the (Democrat-controlled) Senate approved Amtrak's request for $1.2 billion, while adding "The Bush administration and many members of Congress have displayed no enthusiasm for continuing annual subsidies. This year the Bush administration proposed $521 million for the railroad for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1."
Like I said ... :)
You said nothing. This is a serious issue.
Of COURSE it's a serious issue. But at the same time, pointing the finger at the republican congress is only going to result in charges here that the context is being turned to "politics" which is inappropriate for a rail forum (unless we're calling someone a liberal of course, that's OK) ... but that is what I said ("they step in peanuts") and I didn't want to make it any more political. The newspapers identified the cuplrits. And about all we can do is vote against them since we have politicians who are only interested in their dogma, not the best interests of the public at large. When a politician turns on the public, time to turn on the politician ... I'll leave it there, names were named.
This proves what some of us have been saying all along. Passenger rail really isn't about making a profit - it's about providing a public service that many constituents want (and politicians advocate for).
Amen!
...so a Pennsylvania would lose both its long-distance trains to/from Chicago, but New York keeps the Lake Shore Ltd. and Empire Service? Cities across New York continue to be served with multiple trains, while Pennsylvania's service shrinks to a scant 200 mile line in the east? Pennsylvania kicks in more "state subsidy" than New York. When the Keystone corridor service was threatened with being cut in the early '90s, Governor Ridge came through with the cash. New York trains are not subject to operating subsidy from the state.
Now, I'm well aware that New York receives far less in federal money of all kinds than it pays to the U.S. government, but clearly the New York's federal legislators are more powerful than Pennsylvania's when it comes to Amtrak.
If things were fair, the proposal should have been to cut the Lake Shore and keep the Broadway Ltd. Or make NY pay for those Empire trains between Albany and Buffalo. It's only fair. Clearly Pennsylvania wants trains enough to pay for them.
In reality, this proposal won't come through like this, but I do fear for Pennsylvania's trains. The states in the west with cities which would lose all train service will be spared, but since Pennsylvania has (and pays for) the Keystone corridor, I fear the trains serving western PA will disappear (and Norfolk Southern executives will do a little happy dance).
Your complaint is a little overdone. Recall, that Philadelphia riders have access to all New York trains simply by connecting to them from the Northeast Corridor. Thus, either directly or indirectly, you can catch any New York train you want from 30th Street station. The limitations are the layovers, and that you may not be able to check your luggage through Philly all the time, but may have to carry it with you until you reach Penn.
Ron,
Who's talking about Philly? Pete is complaining about Pennsylvania losing its trains. People from Keystone Pete's neck of the woods don't consider Philly to be part of Pennsylvania, anyway.
The NEC doesn't benefit Pittsburghers or Altoonans wishing to travel to Chicago or Cleveland.
Yes, true. My mistake.
People from other parts of the state would have to travel to Philly first.
Of course, it would serve them right for neglecting Philadelphia all these years. It's a little hypocritical for Harrisburg to starve SEPTA, and then cry foul when the trains it likes are not funded. :0)
It's unfortunate that transit, Amtrak, SEPTA or otherwise, is off the radar screen in the Rendell/Fisher gubernatorial race. They're too busy throwing mud -- Rendell's miracle-or-not in Philadelphia, depending on whether you are in a union or live in a poor neighborhood or whether you live elsewhere and/or live or work downtown, & Fisher going back on his word about running negative ads and his waffling on the Hershey Foods sale issue.
I think Rendell would be a better bet for transit in PA in general.
Cumberland, Dauphin, York and Lancaster counties are trying to form a regional alliance to pass a regional tax to fund commuter rail for the mid-state (Harrisburg, Lancaster, Carlisle, and later York). As is typical, the cities want it and the 'burbs and countryside are appalled by it. The measure is sure to fail.
I haven't heard Rendell or Fisher weigh-in. They should, since state funds would be involved. I'd hope that SEPTA would receive more too. My guess is Ed would be for that too.
"Cities across New York continue to be served with multiple trains, while Pennsylvania's service shrinks to a scant 200 mile line in the east? Pennsylvania kicks in more "state subsidy" than New York."
Could it be that Albany to Buffalo service more nearly pays for itself than service across western PA?
Could it be that Albany to Buffalo service more nearly pays for itself than service across western PA?
Yes, of course it could! I'm not arguing that. But eliminating all the cross-PA trains, while keeping all of the cross-NY trains would not be in keeping with the proportion of patronage in each state. It's not like there are no passengers boarding and/or disembarking in western PA.
...so a Pennsylvania would lose both its long-distance trains to/from Chicago, but New York keeps the Lake Shore Ltd. and Empire Service? Cities across New York continue to be served with multiple trains, while Pennsylvania's service shrinks to a scant 200 mile line in the east? Pennsylvania kicks in more "state subsidy" than New York. When the Keystone corridor service was threatened with being cut in the early '90s, Governor Ridge came through with the cash. New York trains are not subject to operating subsidy from the state.
Pennsylvania's greater willingness to subsidize rail service may mean that Congress is more willing to cut service in the state. It's a matter of shifting tax burdens from Washington to Harrisburg.
In contrast, Congress may be more wary of cutting service in New York because the state may not be willing to pick up the tab.
In contrast, Congress may be more wary of cutting service in New York because the state may not be willing to pick up the tab.
If PA has to, NY should too. NY trains lose a certain amount of money per passenger, even if not as much as PA trains.
Empire Service trains run only in New York. It makes sense for New York to fund them. Keystone trains, the 3 Rivers & Pennsylvanian operate in at least 3 (Keystone) and as many as 6 states. These trains seem more logical candidates for a greater proportion of federal dollars.
Furthermore, I would argue that the reason Empire trains are better patronized and have greater operating cost recovery at the farebox is because there is more frequent service at more desirable times of the day. It's not totally and simply a matter of if-you-provide-they-will-ride, but there is an element of you-gotta-spend-money-to-make-money here. If PA trains were more frequent and had better service, the loss-per-passenger would decrease.
Maybe that way both states would be able to keep some service. Is it too much to ask to keep at least one of the paltry PA trains on line?
Don't get me wrong. I actually live in New York now, and would hate to see any New York trains cut or underfunded to the point that service deteriorates. But I also have an allegience to PA as my home state, and I don't want it to get the shaft, especially since I use Amtrak to travel between here and there.
The Lake Shore also serves Boston; cutting it would affect far more than cutting the Three Rivers.
I still think cutting anything is a dumb idea. I say make NYC transit pull its own weight. Sure that means $6 a ride, but suddenly things like crowding, homeless, and non-fare related crime are much less of an issue.
I say make NYC transit pull its own weight. Sure that means $6 a ride, but suddenly things like crowding, homeless, and non-fare related crime are much less of an issue.
The point of transit is to keep cars off the roads. Mass transit should be subsidized, especially since the people who most ride it are poorer people.
I know it should be, but if our national system can't be subsidized, why should our local systems be?
Compare the NYC subway to Amtrak for a moment. Both were consolidated from competing smaller companies. Without a proper balance between subsidy and fares, NYC ended up with the 70s.
Amtrak, meanwhile, has been given a poor subsidy for an entity of its size, even though it does charge proper fares.
The subways already pull their own weight; operations require very little in the way of subsidy.
On the other hand, the commuter rail favored by richer people is heavily subsidized.
The subways do becuase they are fed passengers from deficit-ridden buses thanks to Metrocard. Get rid of the buses, the subways lose ridership and will run at a deficit like thru 1980's.
If things were fair, the proposal should have been to cut the Lake Shore and keep the Broadway Ltd. Or make NY pay for those Empire trains between Albany and Buffalo. It's only fair. Clearly Pennsylvania wants trains enough to pay for them.
Wrong. Look at the Amtrak operating revenues figures. The only state that is paying for them properly is Okaholma, which is paying a whooping $0.37 per pax-mile for the Heartland Flyer, versus the $0.01 per paxmile on the NY State services and the $0.02 per pax-mile on the PA State services. Maybe PA pays twices as much as NY per paxmile, but OK pays sixteen times what PA pays per paxmile.
Despite the subsidies, PA is still bleeding Amtrak dry. Both Keystone and Empire services should be cut until the states come up with some real money. Or until the Feds come up with some real cash for Amtrak. I don't really care who pays for it. We just need some cash. Now.
At this point, it's illogical to cut any routes since the equipment is already available and the costs are sunk. If you are going to advance the argument that Amtrak doesn't make money therefore it should go, the Sunset Ltd should go and the Acela should go too. It would be a good thing to stop paying maintenance on the NEC. That's expensive!
AEM7
New York's main population centers are in more of a linear set-up, going up the Hudson Valley and then across the Mohawk Valley and the old Erie Canal route. Because the population is concentrated like that, it makes it easier to justify passenger rail service along those routes, because there are enough well-populated area every 50-70 miles to justify stops.
Pennsylvania has the same problem many western states have -- thanks to the mountain ranges west of Harrisburg, there are a lot of areas not that well populated, which means they aren't fertile ground for attracting passengers. Pennsylvania's major pop centers are Philly, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Scranton-Wilkes Barre, Allentown-Bethlhem and Erie -- no way you can run one train route and serve all those cities, while in New York, one route from NYC to Buffalo hits every major population center except for Binghamton, Watertown and Plattsburgh.
"one route from NYC to Buffalo hits every major population center except for Binghamton, Watertown and Plattsburgh."
The Binghamton/Elmira/Ithaca area is a population center worth noting, but Watertown and Plattsburgh are nowhere near that size.
Of course, the NY-Buffalo route also misses a HUGE population center - Long Island.
Long Island has its own railroad and the republican congress ain't gunning for it ... yet. :(
That's a good way to help ease the Superliner car shortage. (sigh)
The Sunset probably will not be cut. There are too many states it serves, and without it it becomes much more difficult to get from Florida to the west coast by rail (Silver Service, then Chicago, then western routes).
Plus, it's train # 1 and 2. Come on!
The Sunset has a huge 900 mile stretch between San Antonio and Tucson where there's only one city (El Paso) with over 100,000 population. That's where the killer gap is financially for the service. Amtrak was looking to partially fix that problem by rerouting the line north from Houston through Dallas-Fort Worth and along the Interstate 20 corridor, but the combined demise of the Texas Eagle makes part of that logic -- a direct link to Arkansas and Missouri for the Sunset -- useless.
(BTW -- The Texas Eagle had been slated for doom five years ago, when Sen. Hutchison convinced Bush to ante up some state $$$ to keep the line active. That's pretty much what it's going to take now for it and other lines, but given the current state of the economy, there's less cash in the state legislatures for such projects).
Good!!! It's about time someone beat some financial responsibilty w.r.t. routes into Amtrak.
If they actually cut the 3 Rivers and Pennsylvanian I would probably boycott Amtrak and just drive or commuter rail everywhere. Those two trains are overnight between two large city pairs and are exactly the sort of service Amtrak should be offering.
Then the issue is, why are they losing so much money on it? Then again, IMHO, Philly to Pittsburgh can and should be a 3 hour trip. Make Pitt 4 hours from NYC, add hourly service, and you've got the kind of train that can change the way a region moves....
Well when I ride the 3 Rivers it is nearly full and the Pennsylvanian is paid for both by PennDot and by Norfolk Southern to haul crtical time express cars.
David Gunn is dropping the Express business. I wonder if NS will still use the 2 Amtrak trains for that business, even though Amtrak isn't marketing it. It is NS rails, and still NS crews west of HAR, right? It would be logical for NS to use the 2 trains for time-sensitive freight. Could scenarios like that, nation wide, help smooth relations between Amtrak & the Class-1's? I say let Amtrak focus on moving passengers, justifying it's government investment (subsidy, for you right-wingers). Forget once and for all the myth of Amtrak profitability. Let the Freights market, fund and profit from use of Amtrak trains for Exress Shipping where Amtrak runs on their infrastructure. Get the feds and the Commonwealth to partly fund infrastructure improvements on the line. There's a good argument for that since it not only aids Amtrak, the "money-loser," but also a profit-driven private business. No different from funding roads and airports.
Sounds like a win-win to me.
They are NOT losing so much money on them because that criteria has nothing to do with passenger revenue, cost recovery, load factor, nor mail revenue. The Chief is on the shitlist and has the 5th best cost recovery.
These trains have low passenger capacity so dividing total cost by few passengers means higher cost-per-pseenger. It is not an efficiency measure. It also regards number of passengers, as opposed to passenger miles, so discriminates against distance traveled, which is why the Conn Valley trains aren't on the shitlist and should.
my wife and i roe the southwest chief / lakeshore limited back in
2000 ......... oh well guess they are gone
also the empire builder route will hurt a lot of folks ....
........!
The October issue of Railpace has a very nice shot of the new "DMU", i.e. Diesel Multiple Unit that Colorado Railcar unvailed 8/15/02.
It's not the first of these new bread of LRVs, but is is a big one.
I had a chance to see the real thing at the APTA expo in Las Vegas this past week. It is a behemoth. HUGE. And the first problem I noticed....the floor level is much higher than most high-level platforms. FIVE steps up to floor level rather than the usual three. I asked one of the representatives why? He thought for a moment or two and then said "Uh, well, hmmm, errrr, one of our customers requested it that way."
Yeah right. What customer????? NOBODY had high level platforms THAT high.
I'd bet they don't sell a single one. It's a pipe dream of the Colorado Railcar Corporation.
[... the first problem I noticed....the floor level is much higher than most high-level platforms ...]
Right, the old Budd RDCs are still being used in part because you can board them from the street level. In addition other DMUs that exist are low floor, so how could they get this far into the creation process without addressing the problem ? Anyhow, it looks nice in the photo & would give operators the ability to run them as "A" or "A-A" or "A-B-A" ... etc.
Hi Mr. T
I'm not up on rolling stock, but are you saying that cars like this are still in service?
I've never seen that before. It's pretty cool looking.
That's an RDC. That exact type is not in service, but other similar RDCs are still in use. Three systems I can think of that still use it are Syracuse On-Track, Cape May Seashore Lines, and VIA Rail Canada.
I think British Columbia RAil has them too.
Till they go out of business, which I read is imminent.
Right Henry, The RDC at Cape May is one of their cars. Willamantic just got one, Danbury has a couple, plus they now have the souped up one (Roger Williams), etc.
Besides museums a couple of operators still have some, e.g. Belfast & Moosela; No. Shore & Labrador; Hobo RxR; Susquehanna; Reading & Northern (some of these are tourist outfits).
The Cape May Seashore Lines has eight of the nine remaining Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines Budd RDC's, as well as a number of others (Boston & Maine). Only two of them (M-407 and M-410) have been in operating condition recently, and a third was used as a trailer on occaision.
ChuChu, Very nice shot of Cape May's RDC line up.
I've seen the two you mentioned caught on film (Railpace & elseware).
Thanks, Mr. t.
Here's a photo of M-407 and M-410 taken at Cape May last year. Enjoy!
Very nice, thanks for sharing.
And you guys forgot about Dallas/Fort Worth.
I have a photo of the LIRR RDC's when they were still on a siding out in Riverhead. They were still there until about 10 years ago on a greenhouse supply company's siding (currently Green Island). The "Jaws" snow plow was also there with them.
10 years ago ??? bett ya date on your pictures is wrong :-)
3121 went to B&O 8/68 R#1972.r#9931 2/70 sold to MdDOT ca 1976 r# 9821 3-2 seating by 8-80. rehab GE Hornell 3/81 Wrk Camden Sta. ca 1982 off roster by 1987 stored unservicable 12/89
3101 wrk 10/18/67 holtsville stored cnb flushing. sfs 12/71
Well, maybe they weren't the LIRR RDC's. I took the photo myself in the early 90's on that siding. Were there other RDC's here for some reason? I know they were RDC's.
Didn't the RR Museumof LI acquire "someone's" RDC...intending to get it up and running, and then trade it to someone else for the ex-LIRR 1556???
I had a chance to see the real thing at the APTA expo in Las Vegas this past week. It is a behemoth. HUGE.
Huge and pathetically overweight. The single level one is heavier than the Acela cars even, and the double level one weighs as much as a locomotive.
And the first problem I noticed....the floor level is much higher than most high-level platforms.
Geez. For all the places in the US with high level platforms. Low level DMUs have existed for decades, it's what you buy when you have low level platforms.
FIVE steps up to floor level rather than the usual three. I asked one of the representatives why? He thought for a moment or two and then said "Uh, well, hmmm, errrr, one of our customers requested it that way."
Translation: "Gee, thanks for pointing that out to us."
Yeah right. What customer????? NOBODY had high level platforms THAT high.
NJT and the MBTA are supposedly going to test it, but that means nothing. The IC3 was tested on the MBTA and a few other places and never ordered by Amtrak, or anyone else.
I'd bet they don't sell a single one. It's a pipe dream of the Colorado Railcar Corporation.
With a carbon steel body, pneumatic doors, and 40,000lbs heavier than any rationally designed DMU, plus 19th century ingress/egress, not to mention also ran truck design, lousey braking (1.2mph/s service rate/ This is 2002, not 1902), and a builder with a rep for screwing up, I doubt they get any orders at all.
CRC's about 60 years too late with the car. Passable design in the 40's, but today, one expects a hell of a lot more from a railcar. Geez, stainless steel construction would be a damm good place to start.
It's another doodlebug.
It will be in DC next month.
Usually, I find your criticism a bit overdone. But this time, you're really on the mark.
I hope they had fun building it (and didn't borrow too much money) - because that's all they're going to take away from all this.
Usually, I find your criticism a bit overdone.
Heh. Ok, I'll admitt it, I'm very blunt about stuff at times :) If it sucks, I say so.
But this time, you're really on the mark.
Wow. I was holding back. Read their spec sheet. Reads like something from the 40's. The comparisions with EMUs is funny too. I don't think even the M-2s are that slow.
I hope they had fun building it (and didn't borrow too much money) - because that's all they're going to take away from all this.
I think as a testbed, it could be a worthy exercise, but as a practical car, I'd want to see:
Low floor.
120,000 lbs max weight.
Electric doors.
Married pair / triplet design (makes low floor easy).
Stainless (Budd used a few amazingly strong but light alloys)
A real truck design.
Better styling.
But, CRC really has no experience building real world cars, just 'luxury' (whatever that is) railcars that command high prices and lower performance standards. The exact opposite of the commuter world.
Well, maybe a museum will want it .... hmmm it would look very nice right next to the SOAC set at Seashore < G >
>Well, maybe a museum will want it .... hmmm it would look very nice right next to the SOAC set at Seashore
I dunno how popular that would be, but it would look great at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum next to their abortive Boeing (?) DMU experimental thing from the 1970's.
Frank Hicks
It's the word that is always thrown about by opponents of every rail proposal. "It will be a boondoggle," the cry goes out it seems whenever someone tries to build a rail line. In my opinion, most of the rail projects in this country haven't been boondoggles, but once in awhile it happens. What rail systems does anyone think have been boondoggles? How do boondoggles happen? How can we learn from them? I think it's important to look at the rail systems that haven't succeeded because it will help us better design rail projects in the future, and help rail proponents argue succesfully against the fears that a new system will be a fiasco.
Mark
IMHO, boondoggle is a meaningless term. It's a subjective term which means one and only one thing: that the speaker or writer strongly disapproves of the particular project. There are no criteria for what constitutes a boondoggle. For example, some radical conservatives expect all non-road transportation systems to either completely pay their costs and turn a profit or cease to exist, without any reference to the number of people carried or to relative costs (a million dollars spent on new commuter rail buys more transportation than a million dollars spent on new freeways). To these people, every passenger rail system, whether transit, commuter, or intercity (Amtrak) is a boondoggle because none make a profit and all require some government investment.
That said, if I were forced to answer the question "What rail systems does anyone think have been boondoggles?" I would answer with two "futuristic" people-movers that pretty much serve only downtown and are of very limited use and even more limited ridership when compared with how expensive they were to build: Jacksonville FL and Detroit MI. If I had to say which was a worse boondoggle, I'd say Jacksonville, as I've been to Detroit and seen people use the People Mover there as a parking shuttle if nothing else. I don't include Miami's peoplemover because it's my understanding that it actually has a pretty fair ridership. I also don't include downtown-only trolley (REAL trolley) circulators as in Seattle and Memphis because their construction expense was a fraction of the people movers, which are essentially downtown-only elevateds.
What about commuter rail lines that operate at massive losses? For instance, two lines in Connecticut - Metro North's Waterbury line and Shore Line East - are said to incur massive operating losses. While his statement may have been politically motivated to some extent, the Governor said not long ago that it would be cheaper to hire a limousine to carry each passenger on the Waterbury branch.
Shore Line East may be a reasonable example, because it operates only a rush hour service. Why bother, you might ask, for a single FL-9 and three old coaches?
How do they manage to stay out of Amtrak's way at New London?
But your other example is not really valid - unless you would like to consider the entire Metro-North system as one big boondoggle. After all, commuter fares only cover 25% of operating costs.
But your other example is not really valid - unless you would like to consider the entire Metro-North system as one big boondoggle. After all, commuter fares only cover 25% of operating costs.
I certainly wouldn't consider all of Metro-North a boondoggle despite its low farebox recovery rate. It is, after all, a vital public service. Taken in isolation, the Waterbury branch is a bit more complicated given its very low, mainly local-traffic, ridership. It's really not well integrated into the rest of the system. All in all, however, I'd say it's still a useful service.
If you believe that any "public project" can be completely and rigorously "scored", then boondoggles are those whose "social bnefit" is miniscule, and by implication the proponents are corruptly steering money to cronies (friends, supporters, constituents).
That said, the absolute "social benefits" are very difficult to ascertain. and even harder to "dollarize". Thus measuring the "cost" of a project is ultimately "political".
Last week a "space flight denier" (IMHO the harmless version of Holocaust denial) got into it with an astronaut. The question however was/is 'space' a boondoggle? Not to me! Yet where are the farebox returns?
Dan, you didn't tell us about Pullman-Standard #2078.
The October issue of Railpace has a small photo of this Trackless Trolley under wire on June 29th. Nice to see that some of these important parts of mass transit history have been restored so future generations can experience them first hand.
How many museums run electric buses now?
-Robert King
Not many. I remenber Barford did once. They hooked just what come down to a jumper cable to somewere under the bus to the over head wire. I was about 14 at the time and they let me drive it around the back.
Robert
Our Mechanic is in the process of restoring 205, a Philadelphia Trackless Trolley.
-Stef
Seashore in ME has a few Trackless Trolleys & some wire that they can run under, but I'm not sure how often they do so.
They also have a large fleet of gas/diesel buses, many of which are in service .... check out the Field Trip report from 2000 to see the one our own Todd Glickman used to pick us up in.
Roger that, mr. t. The petro-fueled buses, such as Fishbowls 6069 and 6169 are well-maintained, and out often.
The TTs, alas, are not operational, nor is the wire energized. I've been an active Seashore member since 1988, it has been the case since at least then.
The only museum with an active trackless trolley line is IRM, which has the vehicles, the manpower to restore and keep them running as well as put up the overhead.
We at BSM actually have two trackless trolleys, but one is actually a Brill "RailLess Car". The United bought 3 in 1922 for a line from Gwynn Oak Junction (Liberty Heights and Gwynn Oak Avenue) to Randallstown. The line ran until 1930, when it was converted to bus operation and the wires came down. The 3 RailLess Cars were scrapped, and the operation faded from memory. Modern TT's came in 1938, when the re-named Baltimore Transit Company began TT operation in the 21-Preston St. line.
Everybody thought that the RailLess Cars existed only in records and photographs. Until.....
In the Spring of 1990, the Musuem received the shocking news that one still existed. Of course, we were interested, and the body of 4802 was given to BSM.
Stored off-property, 4802 will take much, much work to bring it back to life, but we intend to do it....someday.
Dan's right, IRM is the only museum with regular trolley bus operation. I told him when I visited BSM that if he's ever got an urge to run the Baltimore trolley bus, all he has to do is bring it over to IRM for a while and we'd be more than happy to run it on our line. :-)
Frank Hicks
You know what it cost$ to move equipment 900+ miles. That money can be put to better use. 2078 needs body work, full installation of all electrical/control equipment, new doors front & center, proper head and tail lights, and seats, plus the time & money to do it. Lots of streetcars ahead of it.
"The Point" also has several from MBTA, but they are just sinking into the mud :-(
Because it's not restored.
The photo in Railpace was taken on June 29, when 2078 was displayed at our ex-BTC Streetcar and Trackless Trolley Operators' Reunion.
A good number of retired and current operators that ran streetcars or trackless trolleys attended. A good time was had by all, and a lot of us got to renew friendships with guys we knew years ago.
2078 was rescued in 1976 out of a Caton Avenue junkyard where it had been since being scrapped in 1958. It was cosmeticly restored, still lacks control equipment and motor. We have the necessary parts on hand to fully restore it to operating condition, but it's on a very low timetable, as we have no place to operate it.
In the picture in Railpace, the poles are up, but look closely. There's no negative wire. we tar-taped the trolley shoe before putting the poles up. The positive pole is on the wire, but the negative pole is sitting on the span wire.
Opps, sounds like Branford. We have a couple of '47 Brills from SEPTA. One is the parts car for the second which has had some work done on the front roof line (mainly to keep the rain out), but the work is a step along the road to restoration, so that's good. It's also along the route of the tours, so maybe someday someone will come by & say "here's a big pile of money, if I give it to you will you fix her up & run her ?"
So for now you have a realy fine looking one, as long as you don't get to close < G >
I've noticed that NYC subway conductors always close doors back to
front. Is that a rule??
Yes it is.
Peace,
ANDEE
One of the *FEW* things they got right in "Pelham 1-2-3" :)
New or old one.
Robert
New or old one. I found that they got most of the thing right. Like asking for the Cutting Key, keeping the train in one point of power will burn out the resters, and some other thing. I never seen the new one, so I don't know how it work out.
Robert
The new one was filmed on the Toronto subway. That and the re-make was retarded. Stick with the 70's version.
I'm trying to find a subway car end door with tracks, closing mechanism and hardware to use as a pocket door in my house. Anyone have any leads or info to share?
Thanks
Dave
TRY HERE they may be able to point you in the right direction.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't know the answer to your question, but that sounds like a cool idea!
From an industry publication....
"ALSTOM has been awarded a $961 million contract by the New York City Metropolitan Transit Association to deliver 660 new subway cars. The contract includes two options for an additional 1,000-1,040 cars for a total contract value of $2.35 billion if exercised."
Who is New York City Metropolitan Transit Association? Are they a new rail fan group?
Must be a pretty affluent group of railfans if they can buy their own fleet of subway cars! :)
Mark
Maybe heypaul came into some buig $$$ .
That's for the R-160's, right? Now tell me, what type of railfan group would buy R-160s?
Now, if it was a contract for 1,000 redbirds, that'd be a different story.
How much would it cost to buy an old Redbird, anyway? I seem to remember a thread about this awhile back.
Mark
According to today's issue of The Philadelphia Inquirer, only about 25% of city residents use public transportation to get to work. That made me think about some things. The first thing I thought of is that SEPTA's inadequate service is probably to blame. A lot of the city isnt conveniently accessed by tranist. Ideas for improving service such as new subway lines have been discussed thoroughly here. It also made me wonder how Philadelphia compares with other major cities in terms of ridership. I don't know what the numbers are for New York, but I can only assume they're higher. Does anyone have any figures for otehr cities? If so, I'd be curious to find out where ridership is highest, just to see what Philadelphia could learn from other cities.
Mark
Don't forget, the number is always going to be way lower than 100%, even for the densest of cities:
- Some people don't work.
- Some work at home.
- Some walk (or even bicycle) to work.
- Some work in suburban office parks far from public transportation.
I have personally fallen into all four categories while living in Manhattan, where you would think almost everybody takes public transportation to work.
Excellent point. 25% of city RESIDENTS might be rather high for many U.S. cities, since on any given day a large percentage of those residents are retired, under 18 years of age, unemployed, or unable to work due to disabilities. A better statistic would be the percentage of the city's resident labor force that uses public transit for work trips. Another good statistic would be the percentage of the labor force employed in the central business district (CBD) that uses transit for those work trips, regardless of place of residence (this total can, of course be broken down by residential origin).
It's high for New York, where that number is only 21%. The number for the workforce is 42.8%.
http://factfinder.census.gov/bf/_lang=en_vt_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U_DP3_geo_id=16000US3651000.html
1. I believe APTA on its site gives figures for all US transit operations.
2. Philly's problems are major and several in my view.
A. Harrisburg intransigence/disdain
B. disinvestment/neighborhood writeoff As a one time resident albeit short term in Germantown in the mid sixties, each rime I go through on the NEC more onetime factories/warehouse are either abandoned or demolished. I don't see them replaced. In turn the 'image' is that large sections of North Philly are "terra incognita" and no new investment is likely. As such, the economic gains which have occurred, are all in the lily white 'burbs where transit use is traditionally low because the origins/destinations are too diffused.
David Vartanoff points out some important things about Philly.
New York is a unique animal in the US. 4.7 million daily rides on the subway, and 8 million daily rides if you add buses of all carriers, light rail, NJ Transit, PATH, Amtrak. 90%+ of all trips into CBD's are by mass transit, and a fair % of the population doesn't even bother with owning cars.
Philly needs more subway or trolley services. One project is underway (the Girard light rail being restored) and two projects (Schuylkill Valley Metro and Roosevelt Blvd. subway) are in the EIS stage of development. In addition,the Camden-Trenton rail line is under construction; this line will have convenient connectionas for travel into Philly.
The Roosevelt Blvd. subway would involve extensions of both the Market-Frankford line and the Broad Street Line into Northeast Philly.
Another part of the problem is that commuter rail covers areas which deserve subway service. Even when you run a train every 30 minutes (very rare in the SEPTA system) you're not always going to attract a lot of riders.
(Schulkill Valley Metro): Turning the R6 into a subway-like service and extending is a good thing (that's in EIS now). I personally would like them to do the same with the R7 and R8 trains headed to Chestnut Hill. And I want Erie Av's light rail restored (not likely to happen in the near future).
Because of the poverty in Philly and the steady loss of manufacturing here, the need becomes more acute, but the political base has deteriorated.
Still, nothing is impossible. Do you live in the area? Have you written your elected representatives?
Yes, I live in West Philadelphia. I'm in favor of all the projects you've listed, and and I have written my state and federal legislators. I think we lost some of our chance to get federal dollars for the projects on the boards when Robert Borski's congressional district was eliminated, and Borski with it. He chaired one of the committees that had a lot of influence over how federal transporation money was spent, and he was very pro-transit. Still, I haven't given up hope. Perhaps if Ed Rendell becomes governor of Pennsylvania the state government won't be so neglective of Philadelphia and some things can get done.
I think ultimately what has to happen is the recovery of the city in general. We need people to move back into the city, we need the good jobs and good schools that will entice people to move back. An increased and prosperous population will make the need for better transit more apparent.
I don't expect Philadelphia to have a transit system like New York does, nor comparable ridership rates. The two cities are in completely different leagues. But I would like to see us have a system and ridership comparable to other metro areas of comparable size, like Boston, DC, or (this last one is stretching it) Chicago.
Mark
That's reasonable.
In my opinion Philly needs a few things very badly:
1) More mass transit (as stated previously) to encourage development
2) Serious restructuring of wage and business taxes to improve the business climate here (so businesses don't just populate Lower Merion and leave Philly alone). This will require the Mayor and City Council to work together more effectively, and will require more help from the state.
Ron, having moved to Philly from Queens, do you find that the PA legislature is much less influenced by PA's largest city than here in New York, where the state and its largest city are much more intertwined and interdependent? PA's legislature is Republican dominated on both sides of the 2nd Street Capitol Rotunda (which is beautiful, by the way -- you should visit sometime). It seems to me that Philadelphia has much less influence in Commonwealth policy than does NYC in NY State policy. What do you think?
There's no doubt Philly is more at a disadvantage. Its legislators, as a whole, have less pull in Harrisburg than New York's do in Albany; there are fewer of them relative to the rest of the legislature, and Philadelphia's government being less effective than NYC means many in Harrisburg truly believe that the state is tossing money down a "black hole" (and there would be a racial overtone there, too, due to Philly's substantial minority population).
In New York, downtrodden neighborhoods have found ways to revive. Harlem, many parts of the Bronx, and Jamaica, just to cite a few examples, really look much better than they did 15 years ago.
In Philadelphia, there has bee improvement, but in some places, there's been backsliding, too.
A recent article in the Philadelphia Inquirer pointed out the growing divide in Philly and the increase in the % of people here living in poverty.
Your observations are 'right on target'. Let's keep in mind, however, that, as much as I support transit, SEPTA is not the best operator in the world. SEPTA is often its own worst enemy. I won't go into differences I have with the way it operates (and there are many, but it's easy for me to postulate while SEPTA has to deal with reality), but here are some problems I'll note.
1. SEPTA staff - At one time (and it wasn't too long ago - I'm only in my mid-40's but I recall it), transit workers were a respected group. Today's SEPTA operators have a serious case of attitude and care little about their jobs or their customers. They are in no way a professional group. Many of them don't operate responsibly. After a ride or two, new riders are scared and disgusted, and will not return. I know - I've heard from them. SEPTA management won't do anything to cross the union, so it is permitted to continue. One major example - drivers won't pull buses to the curb at stops, since it's easier for them to block lanes of traffic than having to 'fight' to get back into traffic if they pull over. Who loses here?
2. SEPTA mindset - Little, if anything, creative comes out as far as revised services, changed schedules, etc. Old ways are well-established and remain ingrained. Suggestions from outside are pooh-poohed. Example - many riders drop off children at school or day care. If SEPTA changed the rule on transfers to allow for continuations (as many transit agencies do), it could capture this group. But SEPTA insists that they buy passes. The ages-old rule on transfers remains in effect, ignoring how changes in lifestyles and commuting patterns could be accommodated.
3. Service levels - Many routes have fallen to 30+ minute headways on Saturdays and 60 minutes on Sundays. This is a time to attract possible riders. This only starts the vicious cycle of fewer riders, less service, etc.
4. Local and state support - In SEPTA's defense, it becomes a political football when the local politicos want it to be, but otherwise it gets ignored. Phila is the city that most of the rest of PA would like to become part of NJ and funding, etc for big-city problems is routinely avoided or minimized. Transit is seen as a wasteful way of shuttling around those too lazy to better themselves, which is why we have a $2 base fare.
5. Economics - The lack of local/state support causes taxes in the city to be high, scaring off employers. Jobs that remain often are scattered and tend to be suburban (especially those which attract low-skilled inner-city residents). Despite changing trends, SEPTA's route structure has changed little since the 50's, and people who must commute from the inner city to outlying jobs have to transfer two, three or more times, at significant cost, chewing up lots of time. Is it any wonder they buy cars the first chance they get?
The census doesn't reflect that over 60% of those entering Center City every day are on transit (which remains significant).
Let's take a look at your points:
Point #4: Absolutely correct. The rest of the state doesn't really respect mass transit, though the Port Authority in Pittsburgh operates a fairly decent bus system (I've used their airport service). SEPTA got new subway cars for the Market-Frankford Line only after a fatal accident involving the Budd M3 cars. The stations stink, and their ability to handle a lot of passengers in comfort is not well developed, except for a few like the Airport, University City, Temple U and the downtown stations.
One very good thing that SEPTA has done: The Market-Frankford reconstruction project, still underway, is remaking the entire line to be a lot more user-friendly and ADA-compliant. The Frankford terminal is undergoing a remake that is much needed and nicely designed. Kudos to the agency.
Point #3: Very true for the rail system. Hourly service doesn't cut it. The R8 Chestnut Hill East line is the best, at 30 minute service. In a town will insufficient subway service, you need more trains running on commuter rail.
The bus system, however, is pretty decent. I take it all the time and have very little to complain about, schedule-wise. Most buses are ADA-compliant, and equipment is improving - another checkmark in the plus column.
Point #5: True - There isn't enough "reverse commute" service, and it doesn't serve the areas where jobs are growing well enough. The R1 will take you to your airport job; the R2 will take you to your job in Delaware, but the factories in Chester that the line serves are slowly shuttering. On a positive note, the trains/trolleys will still take students to universities (Swarthmore, Widener, Bryn Mawr, Temple, U. Penn, Hahnemann, etc.)
Point #2: A top-heavy bureaucracy affects this. Which transit agencies allow continuation? MTA does not, as far as I know.
Point #1: I hate to tell you this, but among all your points, that is the most uninformed and unfair (really, really ignorant, actually). SEPTA operators (and I ride everywhere on it) do as good a job as any operators anywhere do. You hear some complaints, and so do I, but I've had as many occasions to offer commendations, too, for consciencious and friendly service. That includes a superb set of train operators who have to work with suboptimal cars and equipment.
There are some problems with operators not fully cooperating with disabled riders to bring them aboard; some of this may relate to management demands regarding schedule. Since I serve on an ADA committee, I know that management is making an effort to communicate their support for ADA-compliance. Improvements are happening.
Overall, the system and its management should take some heat, and the union too (just as in NY) but to smear the entire work force is utter stupidity. Your comment implies you don't spend a lot of time on transit or work in it.
Bear in mind, too, that if (hypothetically) you as a customer board a train with a surely attitude and offer the driver or train crew rudeness or lack of cooperation with their requests, you make it more difficult for them to serve you. That customer needs to accept some responsibility for his/her own behavior.
If a particular driver doesn't pull over to the curb for you, and you think it was safe for him/her to do so, take the bus number down and the time, and report it.
I have to tell you that I both ride transit on a daily basis, use it frequently as part of my business activities (as well as several extra-curricular activities), and I work in the transportation field. I'm only reporting what I see and what I'm told. I hate to paint with the broad brush, and there are admittedly many dedicated and professional employees, but they are greatly outnumbered but the attitude-challenged and those who aim for the least possible level of service and courtesy. I hate to say this but it's been my experience and the experience of many I know on SEPTA. Yes, there are equipment and management problems, but there are just as many surly operators who treat their passengers at best with contempt and at worst I won't say.
The pulling to the curb issue is a major one as I see it. For one, SEPTA has 200 low-floor buses and 100 more coming. They offer little advantage if the operators just won't curb them. In any case, curbing helps following vehicles pass the bus - when the buses don't curb, people pass illegally, putting bus patrons (who may be crossing in front of the stopped bus) in danger.
In my daily travels, I've seen operators who are more interested in their cell phone conversations than obeying traffic signals, drivers who pass up passengers (worse, in evening hours when headways are wide and waits are long) since they're more engrossed in what's playing on their headphones, drivers who don't know their routes (and get upset when riders try to help), etc etc. The attitude problem is endemic and no one is that interested in doing much about it. Worse yet, the operator is the first interface the agency has with its customers. How many businesses can operate when their front-line people can't get along with the customers? I'll admit that the job is a tough one and the customers are difficult, but there are ways of dealing with difficult people.
There are a handful of operators on my line who are friendly, helpful, courteous, etc despite these factors. They will tell you that the union will defend the attitude cases to the maximum possible extent. They admit that it makes their jobs more difficult, but they'll also tell you that many of these 'problem children' come into the job with chips on their shoulders. Maybe they don't belong in public service positions.
For these reasons I take exception to your belief that my offerings are uninformed and ignorant. I am not proud to say what I said only because I would hope it could be different, but unfortunately things aren't. I was part of a group that interviewed some operators about why they didn't enforce rules, etc on the buses. Several of them plainly told us that basically bus riders are a subhuman lot and little should be done to make the experience any more pleasant for them. One even went to the extreme that anyone with any money or sense would buy a car and avoid bus riding. Is this any way to characterize one's customers?
I wish I could say better things, but this is what I see, and I certainly don't like it.
Interesting, we have Michael Burns and his no. 2 Lisa Mancini (both ex SEPTA), now trying to reform MUNI in SF. Several years back we had a painful "perfect storm" of major driver AWOL, "the return of deferred maintenance", a new and nearly hopeless control system in the subway surface tunnel, and route/fare policy changes. All hell broke loose, with among other results a "referendum" in SF which constrained Muni's generosity to the agreement drivers.
Much has imroved but many of the basic problems remain--drivers talking on cellphones, eating listening to the ballgame etc, while operating the bus. Runs are still missed portions of routes skipped, absenteeism is better but still hovers around 10%.
At the other end of the scale, many drivers are courteous, curb the buses, use the kneeler, and make an effort.
Sadly, the good guys are not willing to "rat out" the bad guys so both remain.
I know this is drifting towards bus-talk (BusTalk), but since we're on the topic - is it against the policy of certain transit agencies for operators to have a small radio playing music. Not loud and blaring, but subdued and tuned to a pleasant station or tape/cd.
For example, one bus I was on (it was an NYCTA express bus), the driver had a radio tuned to CBS-FM. The driver himself seemed friendly and professional, so I had no problem with it and nobody else seemed to care.
I think it would certainly make his/her shift that much more pleasant.
It is against NYCTA policy to have radios playing on the bus. In fact, it states on signs, no littering, eating or drinking, radios silent." The bus operator is breaking a rule, probably, though I wouldn't have complained in that case, either (and I've witnessed that too).
The Bus Operator was breaking a rule, DEFINITELY.
David
my point was driver disregard for agency rules. One of the complaints at times of Muni drivers is cockroaches on the vehicles--so when the driver is the one eating, while driving with both hands (ha) s/he is a "great" advertsement for TWU 250A.
As to whether a low volume mellow radio is okay, in a word NO.
(Much has imroved but many of the basic problems remain--drivers talking on cellphones, eating listening to the ballgame etc, while
operating the bus. Runs are still missed portions of routes skipped, absenteeism is better but still hovers around 10%. Sadly, the good guys are not willing to "rat out" the bad guys so both remain.)
Sounds like a worker paradise.
In any event, can we have a reasoned discussion of the discipline issue in the TA, without insults and anger, for those of us who want to know the facts?
First of all, 16,000 discipline actions for 34,000 workers sounds like a lot, but were 16,000 workers disciplined, or is it 500 screw ups who can't be fired disciplined 32 times each?
How much involves sick leave? I saw in the TA budget that TA workers averaged taking just about every sick day they had. You know there is a lot of "vacation" there. But I also heard on Subtalk that in a (presumably unsuccessful) attempt to crack down, TA inspectors were hassling people who never gamed sick leave. I've heard that most companies have eliminated 1/3 the sick days and rolled the other two thirds into "personal time off" with vacation, to get away from the cat and mouse game and stop giving goldbricks more "vacation" than good workers. Would that solve the problem here?
I have just been put on the Sick Control list. Why? you ask Because I formed a pattern of 1-2 day absences over the course of a year, now here's the good part 1/2 of them were doctor recomended.
So for going to the dr. and following his medical advice I now have to go to the Dr. every time I book off for the next 6 months.
>>> I now have to go to the Dr. every time I book off for the next 6 months. <<<
You should be happy that they cannot just fire you as they could in a non-union job.
Tom
Even in non-union jobs (unless you have a contact which your employer refuses to renew) there is a due process which is expected. Your remedies, however, are limited to using a company greivance procedure, always tricky, and going to court (needs patience, nerves and a source of $$$ to survive on).
However, I've known people to win reinstatement to jobs this way (by greivance procedures) - you really have to have a good case, and approach it the right way. The odds are often not with you, however.
Most non-union, private sector employment is governed by the doctrine of employment-at-will. Due process does not apply because there is no process that is due an employee at will. That is not to say that some people do not have individual employment contracts and that many others do not work for companies with established personnel policies that create contractual duties on the part of the management. (In the latter two cases, process is a matter of contract.) There are even a few reasons that cannot legally be the basis for termination of an employee-at-will, such as racial discrimination or retaliation for reporting a crime. In general, however, in the private sector, if there is no contract, whether union, individual, or implied from a company policy, there is no right to keep your job.
(Most non-union, private sector employment is governed by the doctrine of employment-at-will.)
It depends on the state. New York is an employment at will state, and there are no non-contractural guarantees.
Nonetheless, since good workers are valuable, companies may choose to have some procedure to prevent good workers from being sent packing due to personality conflicts with bad managers. In that case, it would be in the companies interest to sack the bad manager.
In the public sector, however, it seems that both bad workers and bad managers have the right to keep their jobs pending protracted appeals. The only way to get someone out is to document a failure to abide by one or more very specific rules. Hence the constant bickering and nitpicking over such rules. I don't know a way around it.
I've also noticed a tendency in public service for workers and managers to back their own kind, regardless. This seems idiotic in the TA, where so many managers have come up through the ranks.
>>> New York is an employment at will state, and there are no non-contractural guarantees. <<<
I am not aware of any American state that is any different. Anyone know of one? The closest thing to that is in cases of long time employees fired just before becoming eligible for a pension, some courts have found an implied contract for continued employment as long as the employee is doing a good job. This is really an example where "hard cases make bad law."
>>> In the public sector, however, it seems that both bad workers and bad managers have the right to keep their jobs pending protracted appeals The only way to get someone out is to document a failure to abide by one or more very specific rules. <<<
This is due to the constitutional rights to "equal protection under the law" (preventing a manager from saying I don't like you, your fired) and "due process" (requiring review of an adverse action) which is imposed on governments, but not on private employers.
>>> I don't know a way around it. <<<
You see more and more governments contracting with the private sector to provide services which were traditionally done by public workers including running prisons, road maintenance, sewer maintenance, public building maintenance and trash pickup.
Tom
"The closest thing to that is in cases of long time employees fired just before becoming eligible for a pension, some courts have found an implied contract for continued employment as long as the employee is doing a good job. This is really an example where "hard cases make bad law." "
How so? Employees can be laid off if cutbacks are needed, but why should a private employer be able to fire someone in the private sector if he/she does just as well as 10 other employees in the same job category and the employer basically decides capriciously to replace the person?
This is not bad law; it is justice.
(Note that mostly this involves employers of a minimum size. If I employ youto be my handiman and fire you six weeks later, nobody is going to come after me unless I violated your contract (if we had one) or broke the law...)
>>> Employees can be laid off if cutbacks are needed, but why should a private employer be able to fire someone in the private sector if he/she does just as well as 10 other employees in the same job category and the employer basically decides capriciously to replace the person? <<<
Why not? The basis of an employment at will arrangement is the worker is not required to work any longer than he wants to, and the employer is not required to keep the worker employed any longer than he wants to. The employer pays the worker for his services and once paid the worker has no more claim on the employer. Abuses by more powerful employers is what led to the organized labor movement, and the negotiating of terms of employment between workers and employers and a contract which replaces the simple employment at will.
>>> This is not bad law; it is justice. <<<
The saying "hard cases make bad law" refers to situations where if the judge applied the law the way it was written, some deserving person would suffer a great injury. The judge is bound by the law, and has no right to rule in a way opposed to it. Therefore the judge will try to twist and turn the interpretation of the existing law in such a way that the just result will be obtained. Frequently this has unintended consequences when future litigants quote that appellate judge's rulings in other cases with different circumstances.
In the case where a court determines there is an implied contract to continue employment as long work is satisfactory to prevent the capricious loss of a pension, it raises questions of how long one must be employed before the implied contract is in force, and how is satisfactory work defined. Any employee can still leave whenever he wants because of the 13th Amendment, but now every employer has many more restrictions placed on his freedom of action. Anyone he fires can sue him for breach of contract. Conservatives will claim that lawmaking of this type belongs in the legislature, not the courts.
Tom
"In the case where a court determines there is an implied contract to continue employment as long work is satisfactory to prevent the capricious loss of a pension, it raises questions of how long one must be employed before the implied contract is in force, and how is satisfactory work defined."
Yes, that is true. Not arriving at a reasonable definition of the above is unfair to both employer and employee.
"Any employee can still leave whenever he wants because of the 13th Amendment, but now every employer has many more restrictions placed on his freedom of action. Anyone he fires can sue him for breach of contract."
This recognizes the inherent imbalance of power here - the employer is often much more powerful and the employee, and the employee is far more likely to suffer - so this reduces the imbalance of power to some appropriate degree - and of course there will always be debate as to where that point should be.
"Conservatives will claim that lawmaking of this type belongs in the legislature, not the courts."
Perhaps. But the key word is "lawmaking." Judges must interpret law so that an abstraction on a piece of paper can have a just and proper effect on a real human being. They must also determine whether these laws meet constitutional standards. Both activities can result in what a conservative might derisively call "activism."
Conservatives (actually the terms liberal and conservative represent a rather nonsensical way of distinguishing people, because each "side" displays behavior at one time or another which resembles the other "side." This is very issue dependent, and issues are not always linked logically together. The "conservative's" view of activism tends to be one of convenience, though many claim ideological purity.
Mind you, I'm not purely slamming conservatives for that. "Liberals" do that too, in spades.
(You see more and more governments contracting with the private sector to provide services which were traditionally done by public workers including running prisons, road maintenance, sewer maintenance, public building maintenance and trash pickup. )
I'm not a big fan of this. Governments have all the same problems hiring companies and getting them to perform as hiring employees and getting them to perform.
And I think its time has passed. When all those Baby Boomers were swarming into the labor force, there was plenty of excess supply in the labor market. Savvy private companies went to contracting out to avoid having people on the payroll during downtime, picking them up on an as-needed basis. The goverment did not. Now, with fewer young people reaching maturity, the labor market is tighter over the course of a business cycle. So savvy private companies are bringing work back in-house to ensure capacity is available to get the work done. NOW the government is looking to contract out. Idiots.
BTW there were some breakdowns in the discipline figures. Apparently traffic checkers averaged 7 discipline actions per person over a two year period. Not bad for part time SHAPE workers.
Basically, true, but note the following caveats:
1) Emnployment in the private sector where your employer is paid by the government may subject the employer to certain due process rules which are required in return for receiving a government contract. This is regardless of union vs. non-union status.
2) If an expectation is reasonably created for an employee regarding employment (based on the employer's treatment of other employees) then the employee may have an actionable case in court if theemployee can show that his/her conduct was no different than the other employees. This can be the case even if there is no overt sexual/racial discrimination. My source for this is a Philadelphia-area employment lawyer.
They got me for pattern. Part of this is I applied for dual employment in expectation of a second job (which I never took) after three letters they still have it in their minds that I have a second job and am booking off for it.
This also means the HBT has to take a hit everytime I get a charlie horse and only need to soak in the tub lather up in BenGay.
1. my comments are based on either personal observation or in the case of the absenteeism rate a statement by GM Michael Burns at a general mtg of Rescue Muni (a rider advocact group based in SF which includes some Muni operators).
2. The 'cat and mouse' you allude to is degrading. I believe the 'call it personal time--use it as you see fit' plan is so much more human.
3. In a different thread I commented on "shaming" workers both in front of colleagues and the public. Another massively stupid and inhuman mgmt tactic.
" I've heard that most companies have eliminated 1/3 the sick days and rolled the other two thirds into "personal time off" with vacation"
Often even replaced sick days with half as many vacation days rather than 2/3. But still a good deal for most people.
Unionized companies tend to get a lot of resistance from the union about this idea, though.
>>> I saw in the TA budget that TA workers averaged taking just about every sick day they had. You know there is a lot of "vacation" there.
Does this include people who are put out for medical and then held in limbo? Do you know that the TA routinely ignores the impartial doctor when they say that person can go back to work or that it can take well over 7 weeks to get to visit that doctor? Or that the TA doctor can put you out and not have to say X,Y and Z is wrong come back when it is taken care of, you have to play a guessing game with your doctor. OK your pressure is high give them a number it was to read to be under control don't make people go 2-3 round to get back to work.
Of course over a 25 year career a broken leg or heart attack can eat up that balance like nobdoy business.
First, I'm not arguing with the rationale for curbing buses. Everything you've said about why it should be done is true. And I have had drivers not do it (still, a low-floor bus is easier to board eve when not curbed - but that's beside the point). But the majority I've seen have done it.
But my main point about your "broad stroking" remains. I don't drive, and I use SEPTA exclusively for travel. I've ridden buses in every part of town, riding the full length. I've ridden half of the Regional Rail Lines at one time or another, sometimes several times per week or even per day. I've ridden the Broad Street and Market-Frankford lines frequently, and depend on them. I talk with drivers and conductors when I have a question I need answered. I have acquaintances and friends who depend on them. I attend ADA meetings (I am not ADA dependent myself) at SEPTA and I hear complaints about service, so I know they exist.
I've never once seen a driver or member of train crew talk on a cellphone or wearing a headset while driving or operating a train or bus. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - if you've seen it, I believe you.
"I have to tell you that I both ride transit on a daily basis, use it frequently as part of my business activities (as well as several extra-curricular activities), and I work in the transportation field. I'm only reporting what I see and what I'm told."
In other words, you're reporting anecdotally, and you really have no idea what the extent of the problem is. People commonly take something and generalize it; they forget about the 10 non-eventful rides they had and remember the one bad driver who gave them a hard time. Are you sure you're not doing that?
"but there are just as many surly operators who treat their passengers at best with contempt and at worst I won't say."
Maybe you should say - and be specific. That might lend your post much greater credibility. And take the time (and responsibility) of formally reporting it to SEPTA management.
"drivers who don't know their routes (and get upset when riders try to help)"
Drivers are supposed to get instructions from the control center, not from passengers. Passengers don't know about detours, special instructions and other details. If the driver had a problem he should have gotten help from supervision. If he/she was getting help from supervision, it is not your place to interfere (but it is the driver's duty to let you know what's going on). If you "work in the transportation field" you should know that.
"There are a handful of operators on my line who are friendly, helpful, courteous, etc despite these factors. They will tell you that the union will defend the attitude cases to the maximum possible extent. They admit that it makes their jobs more difficult, but they'll also tell you that many of these 'problem children' come into the job with chips on their shoulders. Maybe they don't belong in public service positions. "
You're describing one side of a multi-sided union vs. management problem which is common to virtually all transit systems. The drivers you spoke to have valid points to make, but they're not seeing all sides of it, and you're accepting their view uncritically.
"For these reasons I take exception to your belief that my offerings are uninformed and ignorant."
Sorry, but your comments don't support you.
"I am not proud to say what I said"
Then don't say it. You'd be better off.
"Several of them plainly told us that basically bus riders are a subhuman lot and little should be done to make the experience any more pleasant for them. One even went to the extreme that anyone with any money or sense would buy a car and avoid bus riding. Is this any way to characterize one's customers?"
Certainly not, and that person needs a new line of work (a job in a rock quarry perhaps?) But consider this: that driver has the same opinion of customers that you have about drivers. Maybe his problem is similar to yours?
I've been riding SEPTA and its predecessor for a long time. When I was younger, the 'breed' was different - they were much more interested in doing a good job. Today, that attitude seems to be gone. This is what I see.
As noted, there are plenty of good operators, etc. As for the not as good ones, I have advised SEPTA management when I've seen the problems I've reported, and I've advised others who tell me about similar incidents to do the same. What management does about this, I don't know. I am aware of several general notices, etc that have gone out, but that's the extent of what I've seen.
I have been on my own bus several times when operators miss turns, follow a route they 'think' is theirs, etc. As an interested rider, I (and others) often advise them politely that they're off route. Sometimes they've accepted the help and directions to return to route, sometimes they've ignored the help. Not once has this resulted in a call to control center. One operator who was grateful for my help told me that the last thing he wanted was to call in and say he was lost. I can appreciate that.
I was also on a bus once that approached the scene of an accident which blocked the route. He stopped the bus, told us all that was the end of the line, and that we were on our own since he didn't know when he would be moving again. This was 8 PM with pouring rain. The next bus was a half-hour behind. I asked for an emergency transfer, had one literally thrown at me, and then was told 'good luck'. A woman passenger on the bus was literally in tears - she was unfamiliar with the area and trying to meet someone at a stop with no way to let them know she'd be late. The driver's approach was - and he stated this clearly - 'I'm getting paid whether we move or not'. The handful of us on the bus walked 3 blocks to another route. This is service? The driver wouldn't even call in to advise the next bus to detour.
My point was (before all of this was put under the microscope) that transit should be doing what it can to attract riders. The attitudes of the 'front line' workers should reflect this. I've never operated a transit vehicle. I know how riders can be. And, the net result is that SEPTA is shooing away current riders who have a choice and disserving those who are transit-dependent as long as it allow the attitude cases to do what they do with little regard for their customers.
Come to Phila the next time it snows. Watch how many drivers pull buses to the side of the road (even with passengers!) because they make their own decisions whether it's too dangerous to continue.
"I've been riding SEPTA and its predecessor for a long time. When I was younger, the 'breed' was different - they were much more interested in doing a good job. Today, that attitude seems to be gone. This is what I see. "
Waxing nostalgic about the good old days...
"I have been on my own bus several times when operators miss turns, follow a route they 'think' is theirs, etc. As an interested rider, I (and others) often advise them politely that they're off route. Sometimes they've accepted the help and directions to return to route, sometimes they've ignored the help. Not once has this resulted in a call to control center."
That's unfortunate. It's good of you to report it.
" One operator who was grateful for my help told me that the last thing he wanted was to call in and say he was lost. I can appreciate that."
Well, that's fine, but if the choice is between calling the control center and just guessing and making the problem worse, obviously the first choice is better. The driver's comment to you suggested a management problem more than a problem with the driver, though we don't know for sure.
The incident you described in the rain with the accident is truly horrendous. The driver was wrong and reckless. It's easy to play Monday-morning quarterback, of course, so I respect your handling of it however you decided to. I assure you I would have not only written to SEPTA about it, but considered calling newspapers radio and TV stations to let them in on the story, depending on the response I got from my complaint.
BTW, I currently live in Philly and have spent several winters here over the last 11 years (split my time between Philly, NY and Boston).
Im sorry,
But I think giving SEPTA drivers a hard time. True, you may have had a bad experience with that one driver, but that can happen in any transit system anywhere.
I have lived in Philly for my whole life, and commute up and down the east coast for work. During all times, and in all weather, I have found that SEPTA service is reliable, and most drivers try to work hard and get their jobs done.
You were referring to Bobw's post, I believe...
Yes. I know there are some crude SEPTA drivers, but I've encountered more nice ones that problematic ones.
...as I have (I currently get a great operator every morning). If I painted with a broad brush, it was not my point. My focus here was to show how transit should be trying to win and keep riders. Good service, dependable equipment, etc etc can help, but the first-line folks will 'seal the deal' either way.
Some transit workers seem to think they have jobs for life, and therefore it doesn't matter how they treat their riders. The more forward-thinking ones know better and have often experienced the 'lean' times of job/service cutbacks, etc. While I was in some ways waxing nostalgic about the good old days when transit professionals were by and large just that, it's a shame that it's a concept that seems to be slowly going by the wayside.
We need to keep in mind that, while transportation is a necessity for many of us, transit is often discretionary, and it is often viewed as something that is abandoned once someone achieves a certain level of success or economic viability. I ride because it makes sense for me and I have an ingrained transit habit (those 40-some years of riding I mentioned). Unfortunately, many of today's younger folk grew up in cars and don't have this habit. These are the folks that need to be 'charmed' by transit. If potential riders go away, service gets cut, more riders disappear, and the cycle continues. It's the history of transit in many of the larger cities in the South and Midwest.
Also, I forgot to mention that continuations using a transfer on the same route, a suggestion I've made to SEPTA, are possible on many systems. Examples I'm aware of are Portland, Seattle, San Francisco and Cincinnatti.
Now you've posted a lot of things I agree with.
I wonder if MTA could accomplish this "continuation" ride. The biggest problem I see with it is that in New York, once you are inside fare control you can go anywhere you want, and unlike in Washington or on PATCO, there is no exit swipe to track your movement. So a "continuation" trip could turn into a round-trip, which is not what is intended here.
On a bus it's easier, so long as the farebox can know which way the bus is pointed. You just got off a Q46; you have to get back a Q46 going in the same direction within x minutes.
On a bus it's easier, so long as the farebox can know which way the bus is pointed.
My experience leads me to believe the fare system does not know know uptown from downtown. The TA introduced limited service on the Q44 line a few years ago. They did this by introducing Q20A and Q20B as the local service. It is now possible to take a Q44 to Jamaica and return via a Q20A/B on the return trip for a single fare.
I think the TA was excessively paranoid about the possibility people getting a free ride, when the set up Metrocard. They could have opted for a simple time limit instead of trying to keep track of which lines the person took. The data processing would have been much simpler and cheaper.
Now, given the fact that they have all this actual data about passenger travel patterns, they do not use it for route planning.
Modifications to the system would be needed.
SEPTA has installed a GPS-based system on its buses to announce upcoming stops. I can imagine linking this system to some software on a farebox, which could then flexibly validate or invalidate the use of a farecard or electronic transfer.
I can imagine linking this system to some software on a farebox, which could then flexibly validate or invalidate the use of a farecard or electronic transfer.
Two different vendors. Yes, it is fairly simple conceptually. Both vendors will try to take take SEPTA or NYCT to the cleaners to implement it and blame the other for any failures.
"I think the TA was excessively paranoid about the possibility people getting a free ride, when the set up Metrocard. They could have opted for a simple time limit instead of trying to keep track of which lines the person took. The data processing would have been much simpler and cheaper."
This is not paranoia, it is revenue preservation. Many people take quick round trips. NYCT policy is to try to get 2 fares out of those people. There are of course lots of possible dodges involving using route A to go and route B to come back, or using bus one way and subway the other, or taking the subway to the environs of Lex and 60th/63rd and then getting back on the subway there for free.
But if they just allowed unlimited use of the system (or even just the buses) for 2 hours, they would see a sizable revenue reduction that we would all have to cover with an even higher fare increase than the one we're getting anyway.
Relative to all the software that went into the Metrocard system, and all the computer processing required, the software and processing to enforce these specific rules is probably fairly small. It is of course unfortunate if haven't bothered to create software to collect ridership statistics, or if they collect it and don't use it for route planning.
But if they just allowed unlimited use of the system (or even just the buses) for 2 hours, they would see a sizable revenue reduction
I have yet to see any figures that quantify the problem. They have the data - both before and after the introduction of the unlimited ride cards.
Relative to all the software that went into the Metrocard system, and all the computer processing required, the software and processing to enforce these specific rules is probably fairly small.
If this were a time-based system, then there would not be any need for a real time network to keep track of passengers. Local card readers would be sufficient. They spent a bundle on the fiber optic network to keep track of everything.
They spent a bundle on the fiber optic network to keep track of everything.
Don't forget that the fiber network is also used to pass near-real-time information about things like invalid cards to the station controller units.
Maybe there will be a 'considerable reduction in revenue' and maybe there won't be. Look what happened when the MetroCard was introduced - the revenue went down for a while (since trips that often required two fares now got cheaper), but then more riders started to use the system and revenue rose. The important thing is that it got more folks onto transit, which should be the goal of our transit agencies.
>>> the revenue went down for a while (since trips that often required two fares now got cheaper), but then more riders started to use the system and revenue rose <<<
It seems to be a leap of faith to assume that the increase in riders was in any way due to the MetroCard. Since there is no control group, who's to say that the increase would not have occurred without the MetroCard (and without the interim slump). How many people do you know who did not use transit before the MetroCard who do use it now?
Tom
"It seems to be a leap of faith to assume that the increase in riders was in any way due to the MetroCard. Since there is no control group, who's to say that the increase would not have occurred without the MetroCard (and without the interim slump). How many people do you know who did not use transit before the MetroCard who do use it now"
It is highly likely that the Metrocard's elimination of two-zone fares had a significant effect, since riders were quite vocal about that issue.
However, one way of measuring Metrocard's effectiveness would be to take the price elasticity of the NYC subway system (which can be known, with fares and ridership figures recorded over several decades), and see if ridership increases were consistent with the change in fare (an instant 50% discount for former two-zone riders, and a 53% discount for those using the unlimited ride cards).
I don't know about you, but when I see the average cost of a one-way ride drop from $3.00 to $1.15, I am very impressed.
"I don't know about you, but when I see the average cost of a one-way ride drop from $3.00 to $1.15, I am very impressed."
How was the average cost of a one-way ride $3.00? That would imply that as many people required 3 fares (i.e., bus, subway, bus; since bus, bus, subway would only have been two fares even before Metrocard) as required one fare.
My guess (without any real supporting info) was that before Metrocards the average cost of a one-way ride was between $2 and $2.50 (very few three-fare rides, and maybe 50% teo-fare rides requiring bus and subway).
Note that especially in Manhattan one effect of the free bus-subway transfer is an amazing increase in bus use. People who used to walk from York Ave. or Ave. B to the subway now take the bus. Their trip has become more convenient (which is added value), but its price has only dropped from $1.50 to $1.36 (or $1.15 if they have a monthly a do 55 trips a month).
"How was the average cost of a one-way ride $3.00? That would imply that as many people required 3 fares (i.e., bus, subway, bus; since bus, bus, subway would only have been two fares even before Metrocard) as required one fare."
I was referring specifically to the two-zone bus-subway fare. That fare was $3.00 (one token for the bus, one for the subway.). One way.
I like your comments about Manhattan bus usage.
Manhattan bus ridership has also gone up because people who had formerly made quick round trips on the subway now go one way on the subway and the other way on the bus to take advantage of the free transfer.
OTOH, the bus lines running directly above subway lines may have lost ridership. Passengers who used to take the bus so they could transfer to a crosstown bus can now use the subway for the first leg. Does anyone have ridership stats on the M104, M101/102/103, M10, etc.?
"OTOH, the bus lines running directly above subway lines may have lost ridership. Passengers who used to take the bus so they could transfer to a crosstown bus can now use the subway for the first leg. Does anyone have ridership stats on the M104, M101/102/103, M10, etc.?"
I don't have stats, but NYCT has started introducing articulated buses on the M101/102/103, which suggests increased rather than decreased ridership.
Confirming that total ridership has increased. The bus-to-subway switch would have been overwhelmed by new business on the system as a whole.
Not necessarily. The buses are larger but they may run less frequently or they may be emptier.
Experience tells me that the M104 is somewhat less crowded than before, but I can't say for sure.
"The buses are larger but they may run less frequently or they may be emptier."
That could be, but NYCT has publicly stated, in response to rider complaints that the long buses take forever to load, that they need them to provide increased capacity at an economical cost.
And the solution is either POP or some sort of smart card version of Metrocard which can be read at other doors so that riders may enter anywhere.
This is really a BusTalk point, but I thought people might be interested in the payment system used on local buses in Japan, which is totally backwards compared with what happens in Europe and North America -- but it works, even for non-Japanese speakers like me, since it uses only numbers and not words.
They have a distance-related fare system. You board the bus at the *back* door and take a ticket from a dispensing machine. The ticket has the number of the stop where you boarded on it. At the front of the bus is an electronic display that shows the fare *from* each numbered stop *to* wherever the bus is now. This display gets updated as the bus goes along. You get off at the front door. You look at the sign to see how much you have to pay, show your ticket and the amount of money you are paying to the driver, drop the money in the farebox, and alight.
An interesting system. It is how non-EZ pass users pay for the Turnpike here. However, in the US I suspect such a system on transit would be an open invitation for fare beating (it's possible I'm exaggerating the threat of that, since Los Angeles and other systems work on the prepaid honor principle, and do not seem to be changing it). If you try to cheat the Turnpike, either a cop will chase you down, or the turnpike agency will note your license plate and mail you a summons or notice of violation with a fine.
PATCO and Washington Metrorail are distance-based, but you do have to prepay a minimum fare, or the faregate will not admit you.
(It is highly likely that the Metrocard's elimination of two-zone fares had a significant effect, since riders were quite vocal about
that issue. However, one way of measuring Metrocard's effectiveness would be to take the price elasticity of the NYC subway system
(which can be known, with fares and ridership figures recorded over several decades), and see if ridership increases were consistent with the change in fare (an instant 50% discount for former two-zone riders, and a 53% discount for those using the unlimited ride cards).
I think the free transfers took the place of walking in many cases. You used to walk four blocks, but the bus is there, and it's now "free." So you ride. Not a new trip.
New subway trips are new, however, and more people are using the subway. Subway ridership really took off when the unlimited ride card came around. One way to look at it is that with employment at the same level in the late 1990s as in the late 1980s, subway ridership was higher.
"I think the free transfers took the place of walking in many cases. You used to walk four blocks, but the bus is there, and it's now "free." So you ride. Not a new trip."
In Manhattan, maybe. But aren't you forgetting the boroughs? Were people getting on the Q12 or the Nassau bus along Northern Blvd. and pouring into the 7 subway at Main Street "walkers?" Or the folks getting off the Q30 or the 31, or the Nassau buses, and entering the subway at Jamaica Center?
Or the folks near La Guardia using the Q48 to get to the 7 subway?
How about folks riding the bus from the flatlands and getting on the IRT at Brooklyn College?
Now, intuitively, you could say, "Well, they were doing that trip anyway." But MTA has logged increases on those lines too. Could it be the Metrocard had something to do with that?
Nyaa, could be!
(In Manhattan, maybe. But aren't you forgetting the boroughs?)
I'm more likely to forget Manhattan. When my kids started attending school a mile away, I walked them over every day. After the free bus transfer was introduced and they got a student card, I started riding with them on the bus, waiting with them in front of the school, then re-boarding the subway (for free) to go to work on cold days. The trip was not new, just how I did it.
Silly little things are now sensible. The dropoff for summer camp is two long blocks from the subway. As the kids get on the bus, the B68 us pulling up to 7th Avenue. So I hop on and save a few minutes. If it hadn't been there, I'd have just walked.
With the unlimited ride, I became more likely to stop off on the way home at a location between home and work to do a little quick shopping -- a linked trip. That's a new one.
And that is point isn/t it? When the use/don't use is no longer an economic decision, ridership grows. So clearly, even he nominal, fare is a barrier to some discretionary ridership. If one believes tranit (as opposed to auto usage) is a socially usefuk goal, then clearly reducing disincentives is the pathway. SCRAP THE FAREBOXES,
"SCRAP THE FAREBOXES,"
or raise auto-related taxes and tolls.
Very nice. The transit system just got more useful for you.
One thing I did hear from the NYC area about MetroCard was how it contributed to the demise of many of the jitney/van services that sprung up in the 80's. Thus, if people switched from these to NYCT/MTA buses to get them to and from subway stops, then the increased ridership on the buses was directly attributable to MetroCard.
A parallel situation occurred here in Phila when SEPTA introduced the TransPass in '79. It was long overdue, by the way, but in any event ridership started to steadily rise as people learned how the pass could help them. The 'gateway' transfer between the City and Red Arrow Divisions, which happened a few years earlier, resulted in a similar dramatic increase in ridership, although it came at the expense of the Regional Rail side since people found it cheaper to take transit instead of rail.
It seems reasonable that some people riding the LIRR would have switched to bus/subway when the two-zone fare was eliminated (it was eliminated for both NYC buses and Nassau buses). The disadvantage would have been a slower commute, so the proportion of people doing this would drop toward the far ends of the bus lines (how many people would get on a bus in Hicksville to get to a subway - unless they were lower-income and really couldn't afford LIRR fares?).
I used to ride the Q46 from LIJ Med Center to the Kew Gardens subway station, then take the E or F train into Manhattan. The ride was an hour. I can only imagine what an even longer ride using a Nassau bus must be like.
I bet if they ever extend the Bx34 to the Mt Vernon Gramatan Avenue station, more people from Fordham (and other parts of the Bronx) would flock to the bus and subway to connect to the Bx34 and less people would take Metro North.
"The important thing is that it got more folks onto transit, which should be the goal of our transit agencies."
Yes, within reasonable bounds. Imagine how many people would use transit if it were totally free, with taxpayers picking up 100% of the tab!
>>> Imagine how many people would use transit if it were totally free, with taxpayers picking up 100% of the tab! <<<
Judging from what I saw on the LACMTA when they had a four day fare holiday after settling a strike, not that many more than are willing to pay the fare. I am generally supportive of low subsidized fares for public transit, but philosophically think it should not be free because people in general put no value on that which is free, and tend to abuse the service. Those who could afford other transportation would still shun public transportation once trains and buses regularly reached capacity loads due to the discomfort factor.
BTW, my local transit system has a fare holiday today. I have to decide whether to take a free bus to the post office, which will take about 1 hour 20 minutes for the round trip, or drive which will cost more but take only 20 minutes.
Tom
>>Imagine how many people would use
transit if it were totally free, with taxpayers picking up 100% of the
tab! <<
And this would be a problem because???
"And this would be a problem because???"
Everybody's taxes would go up, causing many of those those businesses who stay in New York because NYC's unique advantages outweigh the tax burden to reconsider their position. The resulting outflow would make the current fiscal crisis look like nothing, and would also result in less overall transit usage than currently.
I'm not convinced everyone would abandon their cars and take transit if it were free. It didn't happen one day last December when a new bank in town made all SEPTA transit trips free for a day. I'm sure the old mentality of many drivers ('everyone else will use it, so more space for me on the road') would still be there.
One thing SEPTA learned when it made senior citizens' rides free was that ridership increased but service was slowed. The reason was that many seniors were riding for 3-4 blocks but, being older and slower, they usually took more time to board and leave. Not too long ago, SEPTA relaxed the rules for free rides for seniors - these were not permitted in the peaks. Now they are only not permitted for an hour in each peak (I believe 7-8 and 4-5). It does not appear that this has caused ridership to increase dramatically.
"I'm not convinced everyone would abandon their cars and take transit if it were free."
Neither am I. My point was just to take the argument to the extreme. As I mentioned in another post, I think businesses would leave town if the entire cost were paid by taxes, and ridership would drop.
perhaps you should consider the "downtown free zone" in Portland,
Indeed many progressive properties have simply put a net time limit on the transfer with no direction/route restrictions.
The cost of carrying one rider 90 minutes are basically the same whether one bus oseveral. And the decrease in arguments with riders are worth millions in PR.
That's what I'd like to see in Phila. There are arguments that transfers shouldn't allow a round trip, but what if they did if the trip could be made within a 2-hour window? Services like the Spree currently running in Center City tend to flop because no one wants to pay 2 full fares to make a quick trip or a lunch hour run.
The 'beauty' of any easing of transfer rules is that it could be done with no major investment in technology, etc. In Portland and San Francisco, it's accomplished with a paper transfer. Using the SEPTA example, the paper transfer is already in use. Thus, no new fare collection devices, smart cards, etc need to be purchased.
The more progressive transit agencies realize that the goal is to fill the capacity already available with bodies (and perhaps get some of these bodies accustomed to using transit - once they see how easy it is, maybe they'll stick with it). On the other hand, properties like SEPTA are more concerned with the bottom line. While I can appreciate SEPTA's concern about resources, etc, creativity can't hurt, and filling seats is a good thing.
I'm not looking to take a shot a SEPTA, but I've found that the knowledge about how transfers work is lacking. I don't know whether it's training, how much the operators retain, etc, but my experience is that operators aren't following the 'rules' on transfers. In my view, these 'rules' have always been too restrictive (I have copies of cards that were once issued to operators on each route, outlining when and where transfers could be issued and accepted). Maybe a relaxation of these rules to allow continuations, round trips, etc could help make things easier for the operators. ?
I like your idea. Perhaps pricing structures should be changed to encourage roundtrips, esp. off-peak, to encourage more ridership.
Let me posit this blunt theory: Everybody who can maintain a vehicle would drive to work if they could. People who work in New York are outright forced to ride public transit by:
1) Geography. There are only so many tunnels and bridges for vehicular traffic.
2) Time management. In New York metro area, your commute is likely faster using transit than sitting in traffic on a highway, no matter what Robert Moses intended.
3) Parking availability. There is not enough real estate in New York for parking the private automobiles of all Manhattan workers.
4) Economics. If they do drive through one of those tunnels or across one of those bridges, and they do come across a convenient parking facility to your job, the cost to commuters to pay all of the tolls and then park their car so grossly prohibitive, only the independently wealthy or die-hard middle class individualists can do it on a daily basis and feed their family at the same time. This is not to mention the cost of car maintenance, insurance, fuel, etc.
The environmental advantages to transit use over private autos is a by-product of this situation. Nobody takes the subway to help alleviate smog.
In Philadelphia, these four barriers to car-use are not as acute, so not as many are forced to rub elbows in a commuter rail car.
On the other hand, when compared to the rest of America, Philadelphia rates high on the availability scale for transit. The only cities with greater or comparable use that I can imagine are New York, San Francisco, Chicago and Boston. Washington, DC may be up there, but not in the same league, as anyone who ever drives on the Beltway can attest.
I forgot 2 other important barriers to transit use:
5) Presence of historical infrastructre. In New York, before the age of the automobile, providing mass public transit was a necessity, and transit lines got built. The city was already populous enough for this to make sense. It was far easier to retain existing infrastructure once people became able to own their own transportation. It should be noted that this did not prevent New York from squandering some of its rail lines.
6) Social Attitudes. This goes hand-in-hand with the above. Metro New Yorkers are used to the presence and availability of transit. They are able to withstand and overlook the failings of components of transit and see the advantages.
These 2 barriers are hard to overcome in a city like Charlotte, which needs transit. It's hard for NIMBYs to protest a rail line which is already there with many people riding on it. It's easy to fear crime and a changing landscape when the rail line is not there yet.
You make some very good points.
The development of more transit here can do what the Red Line did inBethesda - encourage highe density corridor development, improve open space preservation, and encourage businesses to locate along the corridor.
"Presence of historical infrastructre. In New York, before the age of the automobile, providing mass public transit was a necessity, and transit lines got built. The city was already populous enough for this to make sense. It was far easier to retain existing infrastructure once people became able to own their own transportation. It should be noted that this did not prevent New York from squandering some of its rail lines."
I think that is the crucial point regarding whether a particular city uses transit much. A city that grew up around a transit system, before widespread car ownership, especially if it is geographically confined by water crossings like Manhattan or San Francisco, will be densely populated and use transit. Cities where "the car came first" will be diffuse and low density, very unfavourable for transit. Where there *was* transit but it was destroyed (as the Pacific Electric in Los Angeles) it is hard, but possible, to put it back. Where transit has survived, it is sometimes possible to modernise, improve, and extend the transit system (as in Newcastle in England). Starting transit from nothing is hard, especially in the diffuse exurbs.
In Scotland there is an interesting contrast between the two big cities, Glasgow and Edinburgh. Glasgow has an extensive electrified commuter rail system (as well as a tiny subway), but Edinburgh's commuter rail is almost gone. Edinburgh *is* an old, densely populated city, has lots of non-car-owning residents, is affluent, and has a good and heavily used bus system. Why no rail transit? I think it is just too compact -- the distances people travel don't really justify rail.
Fytton.
"Let me posit this blunt theory: Everybody who can maintain a vehicle would drive to work if they could."
That is not true. I work in downtown Los Angeles. Once people discover light rail, the subway, or Metrolink commuter service, they become devoted customers - and they have the option of driving to work. "Build it and they will come." The hard part is making them aware of the service and getting them to try it. Metrolink and MTA should devote marketing dollars to automobile drivers; it would pay off in attracting riders.
Don't misunderstand. Obviously, your commute is enhanced by using transit. Personally, I think it's great you're taking transit, but you are one of the enlightened ones! :O)
It is likely that you found that the taking the light rail was preferable to dealing with one of the barriers to mass transit use I mentioned. Perhaps you saved time. Perhaps you are saving money by not parking downtown. Perhaps the line is located near to your home, or near enough that your commute is enhanced in some way by it. Not every Los Angeleno may be in a similar situation to you, so they tolerate traffic jams on the 405 because it is simply the only option for their commute. Or they may just think transit is for losers, as many do in cities with sparser transit options.
If I could drive my car to midtown with no stopped traffic or tolls, free parking next to or beneath my building, and it was a faster commute than the subway, I'd do it! In reality, I'm glad to take the subway to work because it's to my advantage to tolerate the rush hour crunch. Being a fan of the system also helps, but being a railfan wouldn't make me give up the flexibility of driving if I didn't have to sit in traffic and pay to drive and park. Driving already is intolerable in New York. Imagine if there were no subway.
People in Charlotte have only ever had one option, so it's difficult for them to change their ways. Like you said, all they have to do is try it. I believe you're right. Getting most Angelenos to try transit is the tough part.
"Let me posit this blunt theory: Everybody who can maintain a vehicle would drive to work if they could."
Yes and no. The biggest costs and hassles involved with the automobile are fixed. You pay them whether you drive your car to work or leave it at home. So, if you already have a car, it is cheaper to drive than to use transit almost everywhere in the country, Manhattan and a few other dense downtowns being the exception. It is also faster to drive than use transit almost everywhere in the country, with the same exceptions.
Not everyone who can maintain a vehicle, however, would choose to do so if more of the country was built in a way that walking/transit were feasible and available. And not everyone who could maintain two vehicles would choose to have more than one. In that case, you use transit, and save the fixed costs of ownership and insurance. The money saved can be used for such increasingly uncommon things as saving and donating to charity.
Even if the costs and hassles are equal, using transit may have an edge over driving because transit doesn't demand your total attention. You can't read while driving, you can't sleep while driving, it is awkward and potentially hazardous to eat and drink while driving, and unless you can organize a car pool you can't shoot the breeze with other people while driving.
>>> Even if the costs and hassles are equal, using transit may have an edge over driving because transit doesn't demand your total attention <<<
But the costs and hassles are never equal. As was pointed out in an earlier post, just about everywhere except NYC (and possibly San Francisco) driving is faster, more comfortable, and the marginal costs are less. Unfortunately, driving does not demand everyone's total attention either. Most motorists listen to the radio while driving, and everyone has heard of those who eat breakfast, read newspapers, talk on cell phones, and put on makeup.
About the only place where public transportation wins over the private vehicle by reason of not having to drive is on long distance commutes (35-100 miles) where an hour or two of sleep, relaxation or work time are valued.
Tom
I'd add Boston and Chicago to the list above...
"As was pointed out in an earlier post, just about everywhere except NYC (and possibly San Francisco) driving is faster, more comfortable, and the marginal costs are less."
Then how do you explain full park-and-ride lots at light rail stations in relatively conservative cities like Dallas and Salt Lake City?
Good point.
"You can't read while driving, you can't sleep while driving, it is awkward and potentially hazardous to eat and drink while driving, and unless you can organize a car pool you can't shoot the breeze with other people while driving."
You shouldn't do any of those things, but people do them all, even bits of microsleep. Many people believe McD drive-through and cell phones were invented so that you can eat, drink, chat, and drive all at the same time.
Take it from me.
While working for a city agency which allowed me to take an agency vehicle home at times. I much rathr take the 45 train ride into lower manhattan then drive 24 minutes to work
The added stress of driving made me exusted when i got home.
I'm a native New Yorker and one thing I've said for a long time is that... It's actually a chore to own a car in NYC unless you have private parking. When I was 23 I did choose to buy a car just bacause I liked driving and it was convenient - no to mention good when dating and having a social life.
Now here in the DC area - I drive to work bacause I have parking at work, but I often take the subway as well. I think WMATA does an excellent job of providing service. I've lived here for 5 years and I've come to the conclusion that even with WMATA's effort... The DC metro area is not quite what I'd call a mass transit city. Mnay people that I know here admitted that they'd ride the bus and/or subway only if they had no parking at work. Many of those same folks will no go near a bus/subway during off-hours.
I'll be very honest here. It feels really good in the morning to be able to sleep til the last minute and then drive to work - especially on those very cold or very hot days. For me - the perfect balance would be to drive in to work and ride the subway home.
Wayne
I like WMATA a lot. Excellent service, expansion now in the works with three new stations; very good bus service, even i Montgomery County.
What's not to like?
peak surcharge, distance fares, AND as to Montgomery County--if WMATA service is so good why is there Ride-On (separate fare)?
Because Montgomery County decided to have its own bus service. Does Ride-on go into DC? Does Suffolk Transit go into Nassau or the city?
Don't mix up unrelated things. Ride-ON does a good job connecting with Metrorail - that's what it is supposed to do.
"peak surcharge, distance fares,"
Metrorail functions as a commuter service as well as a subway (it has to, since MARC and VRE don't go as many places as LIRR and Metro-North do). The pricing is a bit steep compatred to NYC, but it still beats a cab - even with the two-zone fare.
Ride-ON does a good job connecting with Metrorail - that's what it is supposed to do.
If only that were true. According to my daughter (who lives less than three miles from the Glenmont Metro stop) its schedule and frequency is maddeningly slow - 20+ minutes to get there in the morning and over 30 minutes to get home at night, plus the post-peak evening headway (which is what she usually ends up on) is quite lengthy. So she drives to the Metro instead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is that typical for the system? You are taking your daughter's example and generalizing it to all of Ride-On. Is that accurate?
Yes, it is typical for the system. Looking at the published schedule for the routes my daughter can take (49 and 51) the headways even on-peak are 30 minutes, and I am told that trips are often skipped because of "equipment problems" (especially route 51, which is a more direct peak-only run). Fifteen minutes total for the round trip in the car and $2.25 to park (free if she gets back to Glenmont after 10 PM) beats an average of 1 hour 30 minutes round trip (including wait time and time to walk to the bus stop) and $2.20 for the bus any day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bummer...
For very short trips, the pricing is lower on WMATA. New Yorkers making short trips get gouged unless they use unlimiteds.
I think it's easy for us (SubTalkers, BusTalkers) to see that WMATA is a very good agency, but part of it may be because we're transit enthusiasts. Many folks just do not want to be on a train or bus and they won't if they can drive and park at their destination.
My opinion is that less frequent service in certain areas (usually out-lying areas) is because most people have cars and any place they'd travel to would have parking. Even I being a native New Yorker (and transit enthusiast)... If I'd going downtown... I'll often take the subway. However, if I'm going to Montgomery Mall... yes, there are buses, but I won't think twice about taking my car and getting there in 20 minutes.
Wayne
Most Washington-area residents like and are satisfied with Metrorail service (except when the trains suffer shorts in the snow).
"I think it's easy for us (SubTalkers, BusTalkers) to see that WMATA is a very good agency, but part of it may be because we're transit enthusiasts."
I've been to DC several times, using the Metro frequently each time. The trains and park-and-ride lots all seemed pretty damn full to me, and I seriously doubt many of those people were transit fans.
When I said "us"... I was referring to the regulars here at Sub/BusTalk. I never said that WMATA riders in general are transit fans. However, as much as people in the DC area like the system... Many of them who have cars often use their cars (over WMATA) when they're not going to work/school or someplace downtown. If you doubt this... Just cruise on the Beltway (I-495) and other highways and you'll see lots of cars. Then take a bus or Metrorail and you're very likely to have your choice of seats. I say all this to say that I from what I've seen in the 5 years I've been here... DC area residents are tend to drive unless the WMATA is clearly more convenient or there's no or limited parking at their destination.
Wayne
That's not been mu friends' experience ho live in Maryland, nor mine when I visit.
The Green Line is SRO, and the Red Line is SRO often far beyond rush hour. This implies a far higher ridership than you report.
I can't speak to the other lines, though. Total daily ridership as of a year ago was 600,000 and climbing.
Does anyone have any figures for otehr cities?
The US Census
Those are some depressing numbers! :(
Mark
That's only 12 years old, Stephen. What happened to to all-important 1957 ??
:0)
That's only 12 years old...
The 2000 Census Supplemental data has not been analyzed by percentage. The raw data by SMSA is available on the web site for anyone to do the calculations.
What happened to to all-important 1957 ?
Note that Newark, and Nassau-Suffolk, which are generally considered part of the NY Metro area, are listed separately, and drag down NYC's numbers considerably.
Bergen-Passaic, too, presumably.
Low? In Philly? Not a chance! believe it or not, I've read most of the posts relating to this, so I'm probably not going to be offering much of a different opinion. But, SEPTA's ridership is anything but low. For one thing, they've been slowly but surely addressing the reverse commuter base in the Philly area. Currently, they seem to be focused on Chadds Ford, Willow Grove, and somewhat on the Airport area. Chester County needs a bit more attention in that area, specifically Chesterbrook and Exton. Granted, none of their reverse commuter projects involve rail just yet, but give them time. Remember, electric high-speed rail takes quite a bit of time to finalize.
As far as the operators go, I sympathize with them. True, I never worked for SEPTA, but customer service is customer service. And when you come in to work happy and cheerful, well-rested, and ready to face the world, the last thing you want is the first customer you see to give you an attitude about something you had nothing to do with. Believe me, I've seen it. Whether it was them going off on me at my old job, or some hot-tempered lady yelling at the bus driver because the bus passed her by or was late some time ago (and he wasn't even driving it), the customer is NOT always right. I myself was a hated man at my old job because I'd not hesitate to let the customers know when they were wrong, especially if they were yelling at me about it. As far as why the drivers pass by their potential riders, that I've only seen when the bus was too full to hold anyone else.
Rail service... that's SEPTA's weak point. They don't have the size and riderbase of NYC, nor the roaming expansion room of DC, so any subway expansions are unlikely... but not impossible. One thing I've noted that people like about DC is the fact that their frequent rail service has quite a few outlying stations with large parking lots close to the Beltway and a few other area highways. SEPTA inherited their system, so it's PRT/PTC that's to blame as far as limited structure and operating area. Regional Rail is actually not bad at all; they've greatly improved on their scheduling, and the service fits the service area. Remember, you have TWO lines to/from Chestnut Hill, so you don't need to have any service increases there. The R1 to/from Phila. International Airport likely only has its frequency because you never know when a flight will be scheduled. And even if the airline company does, what are the odds of them telling SEPTA every arrival and departure time so they can try to work some coordination. It'd be too cumbersome. The R5 bags the massive Main Line crowd, a lot of which are college students, thus warranting their high service level. For everything else, Regional Rail is pretty much a commuter's service. More people during rush hours than any other time. At least with SEPTA, they have enough riders on weekends to warrant commuter rail service, unlike some railroads I know of (MARC, anyone?)
If you ever ride SEPTA, you'll find yourself complaining about the crowd sooner or later. Especially on the Market-Frankford Line. And for the record, the stations don't stink. For one, comparing subway to railroad stations is a bit unfair, given that railroad stations are (usually) larger and required to handle larger trains. For another thing, the only stations anywhere in the system that need such improvements are all on the Broad Street Line, given the construction being done on the Market-Frankford. And those offending stations are slated for renovations anyway (yes, that means City Hall, though how they'd get elevators there is beyond me).
Equipment is a slight problem. The M4s had their problems with the brakes and the doors, but they solved that. Most of what remains a problem with their equipment is a cosmetic thing, thanks to rowdy riders who don't take their trash with them, despite all the signs. There's also that "scratcfitti" problem. But otherwise, I've yet to experience more of a problem with their equipment than an occasional dewiring on a Subway-Surface Line. All the other problems I've experianced with SEPTA's equipment were weather-related.
I liked your post.
Chester needs more transit development. Among other things, the 109 is a decent bus route but needs more frequent service.
Chester Transportation Center looks pretty good, but the R2 line needs more frequent service, and SEPTA needs to put the ADA ramp into the station's inbound side (the station has elevators and an ADA ramp outbound).
There's a whole list, really...
I forgot one thing: Any chance Amtrak could be persuaded to have a couple of its trains stop at Chester?
Given their problems, I doubt it. Besides, that would call for a lot of train rescheduling. Trains would need to be stopped on the innermost tracks, or else have an interlock setup similar to the one at Metropark (on NJT's NEC Line), Overbrook, or Bryn Mawr. I also don't think SEPTA would take kindly to it, even if it is only a few. As far as I've seen almost nobody takes Amtrak between stops served by SEPTA (Paoli, Downingtown, Ardmore, Trenton, Wilmington to/from 30th Street Station) because SEPTA is... more frequent.
The 109 needs more service into Chester than into Springfield Mall. They could always re-extend the 107 into the Mall, and route some 109 trips out of the mall to Chester to cut down on time. Actually, believe it or not, the 110 gets to Springfield Mall faster than the 109, but the 101 trolley beats them all. If SEPTA gets really desperate for more Chester service, there's always the 113... most people forget about that. A few more R2 trains couldn't hurt, you wouldn't need them to go all the way to Newark or even Wilmington... though I'm sure more people would want that, but if it's just for the Chester commuters, Marcus Hook is fine. Still, going into Delaware would be nice to get both reverse commuter sets. One thing I'd like to know is where the R2 Newark branch ranks in ridership compared to the rest of the RRD. I know it's not nearly as high as Trenton, Malvern, or Norristown, but it's pretty darn high in ridership from what I've seen.
I posted some thoughts on Chester in another post. Here's more:
Route 37 doesn't need half its trip turning back at the PNC bank Operations Center; even if there's not much ridership in Lester and Essington, there's plenty in Chester. They could also stand to extend the 114 to 69th Street, and give the 109 and 113 a break.
Chester Transportation Center may be the biggest draw in Chester, but it's not the only thing there. Lamokin and Highland Avenue stations need something done to improve on their boring drab looks.... like a few platform signs. The Transportation Center supposedly has parking... where?
As far as what I meant about highway access, SEPTA might slightly improve on that with the Schyulkill Valley Metro (and maybe the Cross-County Metro, if they ever build that). So far, their best highway access is to Claymont, Cornwells Heights, Gulph Mills (on the 100 line), and Philadelphia International Airport. Compare that to how many Metrorail stations have access right off the highway. WMATA is so lucky they got a later start with a system in an area that wasn't quite developed yet.
Just curious if somoene could give me an idea of what the starting and average salaries are for an MTA motorman. I would think this would be of public record, but I can't find it. All I could find was that the avg. MTA employee salary was around $39,000 but that's not specifically motorman. I assume higher for this position. You could also e-mail me if you don't want to post it here. Thanks.
cshaffer@broadwayvideo.com
I remember reading from an earlier post that a motorman's salary (including OT) was about $42,000.
Michael
Train Opt. starting salary is $23.85ph for the first 231days in road sevice.(Yard jobs, Station Switching dose not count toes this number.) This work out to be 49,608 ayear if your don't work in the yard witch is at a lower pay rate. After 231 days then it's $24.35ph, witch is $50,648per teay. Again this is if you don't work any Yard Jobs.
Robert
plus night differential and in the beginning there is extra board money. One of my classmates in on track to earn 75K this year
Don't for get the whopping extra pay for OPTO!!
Hey you can't touch the Franklin Shuttle.
What is the extra pay for OPTO?
$2 an hour, not bad on the GSS or the Rock Park shuttle but the G is the pits.
And can someone tell me why you guys want to go on strike
Because the MTA wants employees to pay for part of thier medical insurance.
Join the real world. At my last job i paid $50 a month for medical insurance that is far inferior to what the mta offer
If mta employees were smart they would shut up and get back to work
All you are doing is creating an urgency on the top brass to speed up system automation programs ie: MVM's, OPTO, and use Automatic train control ZPTC. ZPTC will be a reality eventually. 75k with job security and good bennifits. You got it made
You are not the voice of reason, quite to the contrary. The ones on this board who talk like you are those who fail to supply Email addresses or fake ones. Nobody is advocating a strike, you are the one who says so. As for medical costs, we already have co-payments for most prescriptions and guys who have GHI have co-payments as well. Do you have any co-payments on your $50.00 a month. Don't bother answering, I don't care to find out since you talk like Mr. know it all. Many of us are already paying more than $50.00 a month already. Roger Toussaint did not say what you claim about striking. Why don't you take the test and become a transit worker? It is now trash throwing season at transit workers. Here on in till the contract is settled, I will not read any more SubTalk posts in regard to contract issues, including Emails. The responsibility of human life rests in the hands of myself and other transit workers and we expect to be compensated for it.
For a matter of fact my email is valid. Please feel free to email at any time.
What I am tired of hearing on this bored is how transit workers are underpaid and have such terrible working conditions
NYC transit has better working conditions then 75% of workers in the free worrld and probably most workers at other transit agencies worldwide as well.
If transit workers love NYC so much why do many live outside the 5 boro's
For a matter of fact my email is valid. Please feel free to email at any time.
What I am tired of hearing on this bored is how transit workers are underpaid and have such terrible working conditions
NYC transit has better working conditions then 75% of workers in the free worrld and probably most workers at other transit agencies worldwide as well.
If transit workers love NYC so much why do many live outside the 5 boro's
Listen to the quotes from your fellow transit employees that were brodcast on many media outlets last night. Souded like strike talk to me
Most working stiffs in private world pay monthly premiums and co-pays for both perscription and doctors visits plus NO vision bennifts and extra cost for dental.
Like during late rush hour and they would not let a CR stop the train to wait for police just because some guy was peeing on her doorway and no one would help, it was not a transverse cab and it was a transit police station stop.
That sounds like a valid reason to file a grievance. There is such a procedure, is there not?
Was it pursued, and what happened?
I think she quit. I did not get any A jobs that pick. I had a D or B job that day and heard this on the radio. At the time I did not remember 59 St had a police station.
Their big line is 'signal for police assistance enroute', I think that is their legalese to cover their ass. Like there is a cop in the middle of the tunnel.
I have gotten on the radio at times and said hey there is a cop at 53 or a station at Van Wyck let the TO grab him.
They have this stupid 6 wire for any emergency but they can't call for a cop a few stations ahead? or pause the RR for 5 minutes. Really they can't, the schedule would collapse if they did stop it. That is a horrible thing to say but more could be done to help protect the workers.
I hear you.
Sometimes the safest thing to do is stay in the cab, run your train, and then (hopefully) be informed of exactly where the police will meet you.
While you're doing that, try to note as complete a description of the perps as you can.
Lefferts A, 3 smelly homeless guys were either fellating each other or using their hands. I tried to remove them from the train without sucess. I was not allowed to wait for the cop to kick them off (there is a cop at that staion almost always) and was told you have a closed cab door, call it in if someone complains to you. Of course no one is going to go past them to complain to me and Control ignored it. I got my Police assistance at 168 St.
Sorry you had to go through that.
If I am ever in a subway car seeing this, I will not hesitate to try my cellphone, or use a payphone or emergency phone at the next stop to call 911 and ask for police assistance. By law, the police cannot blow off a passenger's 911 call.
That is what burns me. The cops are generally EXTREMELY helpful. Why can't the TA call them right away. I'd bet the cops did not come on because of my complaints anyway it likely was a passenger.
That does suggest I should carry a cell phone and bang it in to the cops on my own, something I never really thought about.
NYC transit has better working conditions then 75% of workers in the free worrld and probably most workers at other transit agencies worldwide as well.
But I don't live anywhere else in the free world. Out of working conditions here in NYC, Transit's are pretty damn low. Since I don't know what you do for living, let's just PRETEND that you work in a bank as a loan officer. You come in at 8:30ish, you leave at 6:00ish. You get an hour for lunch (maybe more), bathroom breaks when YOU need them, probably a security guard to keep away the real loonies. When it's time to go home, you can drop what you're doing and go. Family emergency? Not a big problem most of the time. You got sick? Bet you don't need a doctor's note if you take three days off (Bet you don't need to let the office know everytime you leave the house while out sick either). Let's go back to the office. If one of your customers started spitting at you, throwing things at you, in general being a real dick, you'd call security or the police. AND THEY WOULD SHOW UP AND DO SOMETHING. If it's weathering outside, chances are it is not doing the same in your office. If you fell on the way into the office due to the unshoveled snow, there would be lawyers chasing you down wth a lawsuit ready to go, just needing your signature. Chance are, that same snowstorm doesn't require you to show up three hours early for work either.
GUESS WHAT?! It doesn't work like that in the subway.
If transit workers love NYC so much why do many live outside the 5 boro's
And this has what exactly to do with anything? I live in NYC (of course, the rest of the city doesn't quite believe it). After midnight, I can't leave my borough using MTA facilities, but yet, if I have a problem getting to work, management doesn't care because I wasn't using one of their buses or trains.
Loving NYC has nothing to do with where you live.
Listen to the quotes from your fellow transit employees that were brodcast on many media outlets last night. Souded like strike talk to me
Duh! You don't really think the media in New York is going to air calm, happy-sounding quotes, do you? It's much more fun to rile everybody up by airing the strike-talkers. That way everyone else has somebody to blame when the fares go up.
Most working stiffs in private world pay monthly premiums and co-pays for both perscription and doctors visits plus NO vision bennifts and extra cost for dental.
Yeah. So do I. And what I pay for through my wife's coverage costs me less and covers more than what the TA plan would. Why can't I expect at least that much coverage? If my wife declines her coverage due to being covered elsewhere, she actually gets money from her company in lieu of the benefit. Why can't I?
Your points are well taken, though having spent time in a bank, I can tell you that typical loan officer is offered fewer peanuts than you are.
Last time I worked in a bank, it was at $8/hr in the early '80s.
Feel free to substitute your own choice of occupation. My wife is a secretary at a publishing house - she makes more than me, but doesn't deal with the public. A friend is a Librarian in Seaford, LI - makes lightly less than me, but mostly deals with children.
A friend is a Librarian in Seaford, LI - makes lightly less than me, but mostly deals with children.
You're a TA Motorman. You deal with children too!
We deal with children, adults that act like children, and other bull shit that goes around. This goes for C/R, B/O, Token clirks and anyone else that has to stay within the eyes of the people who ride the system and don't give and damn about us.
I had one person barg into the dapture office at Broadway Junction demaning to know were the shuttle train was. He clamed that the train was do in at 12 past the hour. He dammed that someone call cammand center and find out what going on. He did not even want to hear that the shuttle was run on the 25 and 55 past the hours this G.O. After about 3mins we closed the door on him, tell him to call 333-1234 and comlany to about this, that we have on control over the scheduling of the trains. He came back 5mins later and started that same bullshit all over again. Finly I told hime that kif he read a schedule it states "Schedule are subject to change without notest." and that this iss what happen. He just walked away very mad at me. All well what could I do.
Robert
P.S. sorry if there are spelling mistake.
Believe me, Rob....you can't make everyone happy!! If you think that's something, Rob the next time you're at Parsons-Archer during the week (for any reason) go and talk to Disp. Drummond about the "anonymous" person who likes to call Parsons "J", (don't even ask me how this guy got the number there!!) and harrass and insult the guys and gals whenever there is a weekend G.O. on the J. Very funny guy!! I had the honor of talking to him....ask Drummond how I handled this guy and made him stop calling for a while!! lol I got a kick out of it!!
Wow...with all the crap you guys face, I am proud of greeting my daily Q88 bus driver!
wow my dad runs the Q88. u might be meeting him LOL
A friend is a Librarian in Seaford, LI - makes lightly less than me, but mostly deals with children.
You're a TA Motorman. You deal with children too! Mostly in supervision.
I'm sorry Bill, but most private industry has had their employees contributing to their health insurance for the better part of 10 years now. I even know many transit employees who have told me they wouldn't mind paying $15.00 a week towards medical if it would avoid a strike. Face it your union has problems and I am speaking as a union member myself. (UFCW)
Peace,
ANDEE
So, i'd be better liked if I gave an E-mail address? But I get enough spam already.
I used to post an e-mail address here until I started getting spam at the e-mail address I used for Subtalk, so I disabled it and stopped posting my e-mail on Subtalk.
If someone wants to e-mail me, they can ask for my e-mail and I'll give them a disposable e-mail address.
Hey, I'm not bad, am I? Hmm.. ;-)
Well that salary is busting your ass. Last week for example my tour changed AFTER it was supposed to from Mid to AM at the last minute, they screwed up listed me as AWOL woke me up in the middle of the night, then cancel my AM job, give me a PM and then insist I go back to the midnights ASAP. So i got to work every shift last week, WONDERFUL. 75K also involves working 6 days a week and board time.
At my old job I used to put in 90 hours for 3 months a year with little effort, not knowing when you can sleep from day to day is more stressful then you might think.
Or after the 9/11 I had that special J to Broad on the weekends that stayed there 15-20 minutes. The air smelled like chalk, I was told it was the burnt Gypsum is the wallboards. I got real sick after that, they claim my respirtory problem was incidental to that condition.
Or when before they where getting Chambers ready to reopen they were using some special cleaner. I had to be control for a mask (there were none). The AM TD saw me signing out and almost called an abulance. My face had changed color and my skin got spotted from an allergic reaction. All they want is that train to run.
Or speed ups. If you read Selkirks stories there seem to have been many one trippers available. In general the average employee does about twice the amount of work Selkirk did in 2-4 hours less time. Certainly a productivity change like that is a major reason we have that salary.
This year I will make about 4K in night and weekend differential. Unlike almost every other place we do not get 10%. For that extra money I get to clean out trains with psychotics, people with odors that go past rotted feet, shit, sweat and hair sweat and my favorite smega (his literally cheesey dick was hanging out) and unnamed/unknown vaginal smells (I will NEVER eat pussy again). I have come to learn the subtle nuances between foot, armpit, hair, crotch, ass odors and general funk even when masked by old piss, shit or vomit. Even old mucous no longer is an unknown to me.
There is never any help. Or breaks because there are mangers who sneak extra track gangs on the road to do work slowing you down to the point where you have no break the first 3-5 hours and your lunch gets whittled down to 25 minutes.
Plus the money you earn is not really yours. You go for your annual hearing test and foolish you you grab a V8 and salt bagel for breakfast, this is not your shift so you are off kilter. They decide to test you for blood pressure. That breakfast is enough to spike my pressure for about an hour or until I drink a quart of water (my diet has been almost salt free from my teens) now I get taken out of service, a later retest and independent third party doctor say I am fine, they still wont put you back, you can be out months and IF you get back you are now a sick leave abuser and treated like a criminal if you ever call out sick. The old timers were not allowed to wear hearing protection and are all half deaf, how much is that worth an hour?
Thats enough for now. It is a great job but you earn every penny.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!! Lets Not forget being guilty to proven Innocent,Oh wait a minute We should shut up and Be quiet HA has that schmuck ever had to go to New Lots Yard at 3 am?Or watch the smelliest Dirtiest people take dumps at the end of a station .Oh Wait we should have to pay for Medical ,Lets see STEEL DUST which T/A claims is not harmful could just cause spots on your lungs,Asbestos is everywhere and they Deny its everywhere, We Earn every Penny and we deserve More do you Realize cleaners make 10.80 an hour How can they support a family on that ,Oh why do so many of us live outside the 5 boros ,Because if you didnt luck out to a Rent Control apartment WE CANT AFFORD THE RENTS!!!!!If you go to the Projects around the city you are gurantted to find a transit worker Why Because some cant afford to Live any where else.How Many cops live in the city?Or do they all live in Rockland,All we are asking for is out equal share PD FD teachers are all getting theres now its our turn.
First of all, how can we assume that because one employee was "on line" to make $75K that all transit workers are earning about the same amount. This thread started with the claim that the average transit worker's salary was about $39K I think that that figure is more appropriate to use.
I would hesitate from implying that transit workers work under conditions far superior to those offered by private industry. I also don't think that anybody has said that they want a strike. The TWU and MTA are simply negotiating the terms of a new contract that will commence when the old one expires on December 15. Such negotiation between labor and management happen all the time, in both public and private industry. While it might come about that the two sides cannot reach agreement and the workers decide to picket, this is far from a forgone conclusion.
From what I understand, the union has three basic demands:
1. Wages comparable to those paid by the commuter railroads, 2. Better health benefits,
3. Changes to the disciplinary procedures to enhance job security.
In most cases, honest negotiation would bridge the gaps and a amicable settlement would be likely. However, the relationship between the MTA and its Civil Servants has become so toxic that I fear emotions will get in the way of a rapid and fair settlement.
Once I pick and if I do not work any days off my salary will be about 54K including a bit of night differential.
Parity with the commuter railroads would be a 6K (PATH) to a 10K raise (LIRR).
As an example of discipline, I am now on my way to the hospital where my grandmother had mitral valve surgery, my mom has not called me and I could not get through to my grandmothers doctor. I am worried. IF my letter on hospital stationary from a doctor or administrator is not worded correctly, I may be subject to discipline.
If the parties are prepared to engage in integrative negotiations (looking for a win-win) that would be nice. I fear that is not the case.
I think there are too many problems both inside and outside for that to happen.
Lets take the Union.
The other commuter rails get more money (I think their retirement packages are better but that might depend on title).
The health benefit package was always held as this special thing worth so much extra than salary is now under atttack as the Union sees it. You tell the members well everyone else makes more but you have this great health plan. The deficit that they are fighting over comes to somewhere between 200 and 600 a year depending on what kind of stupid accounting tricks people use. Now VOR and some others might say well stupid TA workers looking to strike over $200 but this was instead of getting lots more in salary. As the TA denies most Workers Comp claims you NEED that medical and you really should not be paying for it anyway.
Discipline is nuts. Last year I slipped off a train in the yard that had come off the car wash and was all slippery. I was climbing with 3 points of contact so when my foot slipped I did not fall as I had two other points of contact, I did bang into the side of the train but little besides my ego was brusied, I did not report it. I did what I was supposed to do and it saved me from injury. I noticed later that is cracked the glass on my radio from where I bounced off of the train. What a f*in stink about a .30 piece of plastic. Why was my radio carried like that (well you have me a holster with a belt loop), why wasnt the holster in the back (it is not comfortable to sit on the radio whe I operate, why was it on that side (er I am left handed). It is a number one presumption that unions MUST fight discipline.
Now for management.
The major cost is salaries.
It is hard to crack down on health benefits for other unions contracts when we have our HBT so it must be attacked. The fact that we got it instead of lots more money gets lost here.
There are many losers here that should be fired. The CR that beats the crap out of his woman and violates restraining orders should be gone, he is dangerous. The guy that steals radios is another one that has to go. And the TWU is unreasonable in saying no they must stay. OTOH taking people out of service for a loose tie after they have been working 13 hours is totally uncompassionate and by weakening on the defense of the most heinous is giving up on the innocent.
Hey I like your line of thought.
Let's reduce workers salaries every chance we get, let's reduce benefits and increase co-payments; those overpaid workers can afford it! They think that operating a train with thousands of people on board is a heavy responsiblity and they complain about having to know dozens of rules to ensure the railroad runs safely! The sooner we get the subway 100% automated the better off we will be. A computer never asked for a raise or a day off to be with its family! We'll show them!
What right do transit workers have to ask for improved wages? Heck, they should damn glad they have a job at all! Some people are out of work, they have some nerve trying to better thier lot in life! They expect to be shown loyalty for dedicating 10, 20 or more years of thier live the MTA; they got paid for everyday they showed up, thats all they are owed! They also complain about supervision pulling tricks on them like taking down C/R boards or turning signals red as they approach for no reason. Supervision kwows what it is doing, if they follow all the rules, they will have no problems.
I hope my point is clear, transit workers are hard working people who are far too often taken for granted and taken advantage of. For many years the MTA cited one fiscal crisis or another to demand very small raises and give backs, but when times were good, they were not shown the same loyalty. I don't think many people would object to a small fare increase or a small tax hike to pay for a fair contract for city employees.
After seeeing the results of the MTA's purchase of 75 foot cars here is my main question. What the hell was the MTA thinking when they ordered the R44, R46 and the R68? What motivated the MTA to make an unorthadox purchase for the B division?
That is simple my man: lower maintenance costs.
If I have a 600' train with 8 cars instead of 10, I have less parts to maintain. I also have a smaller car fleet. So theoretically, the initial investment is lower (10 trainsets are 80 cars instead of 100, which is cheaper), and the long-term costs will be lower. But, this didn't pan out with the R-44/46's, thanks to crappy carbuilding. I think it worked pretty well with the R-68 though.
Digging a little bit, you can see that the TA planned something similar for the A division: one R-21 was re-built as a 64' clearance test car. I guess the test proved it was completely undoable, so no IRT 64' cars were built.
the TA planned something similar for the A division: one R-21 was re-built as a 64' clearance test car. I guess the test proved it was completely undoable, so no IRT 64' cars were built
How long are the current IRT cars?
How long are the current IRT cars?
51' 3/4" (give or take)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks! I don't know as much about the IRT as the B division's trains.
"If I have a 600' train with 8 cars instead of 10, I have less parts to maintain. I also have a smaller car fleet. So theoretically, the initial investment is lower (10 trainsets are 80 cars instead of 100, which is cheaper), and the long-term costs will be lower."
That wasn't the only reason. The cars were thought to be more efficient for people loading, but it didn't work out.
" But, this didn't pan out with the R-44/46's, thanks to crappy carbuilding. I think it worked pretty well with the R-68 though."
False. You got it backward. There were some teething problems with the R44, but the St. Louis Car Company built, basically, a first-class subway train which in 1972 broke the world's speed record for subway trains. This car was ordered for the Second Av subway that was started in the 1970's and then stopped. Pullman Standard's R46 is also a very decent performer, with its problems due to Rockwell International's special lightweight trucks which kept cracking. Once the trucks were replaced, the problems largely disappeared.
The R68 was a major disappointment. The car builder was ANF Industrie (Paris-based subsidiary of Bombardier). The trucks and motor systems were supplied by Westinghouse Amrail, itself a consortium. The left hand never told the right hand which end was up, and it took NYC Transit a long time to get the "dumb blonde" to work right. Still, they are beautiful cars and nice to ride in.
There were some teething problems with the R44, but the St. Louis Car Company built, basically, a first-class subway train which in 1972 broke the world's speed record for subway trains
Wasn't BART doing 80+ mph tests before 1972?
Rapid Transit train speed mark 76.1 CTA a set of hotrodded 6000's runnig on the express tracks south of Howard in the early 60's
Revenue service BART as of 11 Sept 72 80 (and occasionaly faster)
As they were in "test" for over a year, they had the record in the early 70's
"As they were in "test" for over a year, they had the record in the early 70's "
No, they didn't. The R44 holds the official world speed record of 88 mph, 77 mph with two motors per car shut down (to simulate crush loads). This was set in 1972.
BART rarely operates above 45 mph.
I stand corrected as to tests (was that on NYCT or LIRR trackage?)
However as to BART, please join me for random rides looking at the digital speedumeter in the cab. 45 is not a plateau in my thirty years of regular riding.
The R44 record was set on LIRR trackage. It was a speed trial, not revenue service.
I rode BART through the bay tubes a few years ago. The speedometer held steady at 45 mph. My other rides were slower.
However, you've had faster rides. How fast did you go?
I was on a BART train on the Oakland branch in June of 1981 which hit 85 mph.
If so, perhaps BART should have registered that with Guinness as the fastest in-revenue run.
Fr that, you need Guinness-approved monitors and verification beyond just the speedometer.
BART should not count anyway. It is not 4'8.5" inches between the railheads.
BART rarely operates above 45 mph.
What?!? No way - have you ridden BART in the Transbay tube recently?
--Mark
The last time I rode (2000) the speed was a steady 45. It was very smooth and comfortable.
But you've had faster rides. How fast have you gone?
BART rarely operates above 45 mph.
...and NYCT rarely operates over 15 mph. I'm not saying your figures are wrong, but the last statement has nothing to do with actual top speeds.
Very funny, Rob.
Actually, average speeds in the NYC subway including stops) were, 15 years ago, 28 mph for express and 18 mph for locals. I don't know the current figures.
The figure for 2000 is: 18.47 mph for the system. The 2001 data will not be published until Jan 2003.
The same figure for BART is: 37.37 mph.
Do you have the breakdowns for local and express?
The National Transportation Database does not give a breakdown. This is the ratio of the vehicle-revenue-miles divided by the vehicle-revenue-hours.
>>> The figure for 2000 is: 18.47 mph for the system.
...
The same figure for BART is: 37.37 mph <<<
In itself, this is an apples and oranges comparison. There is a significant difference in the number of stations per mile in the two systems, and of course, the more stops the lower overall speed.
Tom
Well, it FEELS like it :-)
Do you know if that included station stops and acceleration, or just in between stations?
Those figures include starts and stops and station dwell time.
I'm not sure I see the problem, particularly with the R68/68A. The lines on which these trains run seem to move smoothly. There are fewer doors to load in, but that's also fewer doors to be held. The cars seem to have a decent MDBF, so what is wrong with them?
Every 10 old cars gets replaced by 8 new ones. That simple!
I also believe purchase of the 75' cars was tied to UMTA funding at the time - if you didn't buy the recommended car style based on what the UMTA thought was optimal, you wouldn't get the funding you asked for to purchase new rolling stock.
--Mark
hi!i,am new well sorrta,i,am also in the NYCrail.com baord.i,am 16
years old and know alot about the NYCTA anyway,my first post:-)
i left school early,took the c to broadway junction and as i got at
the end of the platform i saw an R143 on the mid track of the J line.
it entered broadway junction and stoped,i wrote down the number of the cars:
8117,8118,8119,8120 8121,8122,8123,8124
were they just testing?or are they planing to put some R143 on the J
line,i take that line everyday to school and all i see are R42(and some R40m)i would love to see the R143 on the J line.
til next time.
I don't believe the J is going to be getting any of the R143's, at least not in the near future. The M line will be getting a few, and the weekend M shuttle will eventually be all R143. THe rest are going to the L. I don't think the J will be getting any new trains until the R160's come, which will be very similar to the R143's. I am, however, just going by what other people have posted here though.
The weekend M shuttle is entirely R143 already.since 9/8.
Thanks! I didn't know that, I haven't been there recently -- and that used to be my line......I have to get over there and check it out.
They are doing the CBTC testing on the J line somewhere.
The R143's have to use the J line to access the reat of the system. I saw those cars at Kosciusco middle. Guess they were coming back from CIYD or the Rockaway test track........Don't cut school, stay all day. I pay tax money for your education and I want my moneys worth!
that day i did not cut school,and what ya mean ya pay taxes for education,and i herd that now every weekend the m line from myrtle av to metropolitan av is all R143,when this started and is it happening now?
til next time
Yes, the working man like me pays city state and federal taxes which goes to the general fund. The general fund pays for your education. Who do you think pays the salaries of the teachers, the electric bills and the maintance upkeep of the schools? People like me!.....Sorry for accusing you, but you did say you left school early, so I thought you cut a class or 2!.....As of 9/8/02, the M runs 4 car trains of OPTO R143's (train operator, no conductor) every Saturday and Sunday leaving Metropolitan Ave. from 2:04 AM Sunday thru 1:44 AM Monday. The train operator does both jobs which allows the TA to save the conductors salary. The t/o gets a paltry $2.00 per hour additonal pay.
Every weekday morning my LIRR train reaches Jamaica at approx 6:25. He meets up a couple of other trains so there is often an opportunity
to hop to a train that leaves first as they all go through the same East River portal that early in the morning. This morning there were three trains waiting to leave and another commuter asked me which one was going first. I told him the train on Track 1, because he had a restricting signal and the other two trains, tracks 2 and 3 had stop signals. He looked at me like I was nuts but followed me to track 1. Of course, our train left first...
So, the question is, what percent of the commuting public understands the basic PRR signal system?? My number is less than 2 percent!
The commuting public generally doesn't know or care. I can't count the number of times that I've been in a subway train, and across the platform another train comes in. I hear the long buzz thru the cab door of my train, and bolt out of my seat and into the train across the platform.
>>> what percent of the commuting public understands the basic PRR signal system <<<
They may not know the terminology such as "restricting signal" but regular commuters would learn by observation which signal indicated the next train to leave. Beyond that you are in railfan, not commuter territory.
Tom
Maybe word choice might have made things clearer. People might not know what a "restricting signal" is, but if told that one train can't go because it has a red light, and another can because it has a yellow light, the point might be understood. As a teacher I have to be very aware of how terminology can cloud an otherwise simple idea.
Mark
That's the point, the position light signals don't have colors!
I have heard of these position light signals. I have no idea what they look like. Could someone provide a brief description?
On the Port Wash branch I have seen signs that allow three yellow lights in a row. After a train passes, the three lights first form a horizontal line, then a slanted one, then a vertical one. Not being a transit professional, I would have called those red, yellow, and green signals respectively, even though they did not change color.
I guess they are trying to guard against partially color blind train operators.
I'm sure others can provide far more details.
The horizontal display is a stop signal. The slanted display is an "approach" signal (proceed, approaching next signal prepared to stop). The vertical display is a clear. By the way,in the next several years, the LIRR will be converting most, if not all of its position light signals to color light. The company that produced the position lights went out of business.
The slanted line is, if I am not mistaken, the equivalent of a "restricting signal" based on your definition.
So are "restricting" and "aproach" basically synonyms?
No.
For definitions and more information than you ever wanted, click here or here.
I bought an interesting 24 page book at the Transit Show on Saturday. With the above title, it was published by the New York Daily News, and is a reprint of articles printed in their paper from Oct. 4th-12th, 1981. This seems to be an expose of conditions in the subways in the city at the time.
If even just half of this stuff is true, the subways must have been in terrible shape back then. Cars and stations were in deplorable condition, and one article would indicate that the Franklin Shuttle was on the verge of collapse.
Does anyone remember these newspaper articles?
Were things really that bad?
Much of what was said was true. Subway cars were so badly covered with graffitti that T/O's couldn't see out their cab windows. Stations had water dripping from pipes and broken lights. Fare-beating was a problem, and there was a perception (don't know how true or not) that the transit police had let the problem get out of control.
In addition, maintenance was poorly organized. Burned out motors sat next to new motors in the shops, and sometimes worm parts were reinstalled on trains. (This was eventually addressed with a new computerized inventory system. I believe Train Dude and others may be familiar with this).
Funding was haphazard. There was no dedicated Capital Plan.
This changed in 1982, and the subway began its long climb out of the hole.
A lot of people at the TA and its contractors worked very hard to get the transit system to where it is now.
Yes they were. When I was a kid in the 70's, and even into the early 80's the subway was a total disaster! WHen I first started going to high school in 1984, most of the time you could not even see out the windows of most trains due to the grafitti. By that time I think many of the "tiled" underground stations had the grafitti removed from the walls, but the pillars still had it, and of course most of the elevated stations were covered on every inch with grafitti. In the 70's even the tiled underground stations were covered with grafitti, they were the first to get a somewhat cleaned up look. It wasn't until around 1987 or 1988 that it seemed to be noticable that they were starting to win a few battles, and there was a light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak.
The system hit rock bottom that winter. There was one extremely cold monday morning when nearly half the trains didn't make it out of the yards. I was living near the "F" train back then. That morning I froze my ass off on the 18th Avenue platform waiting for the usually reliable "F" to show up. Finally a broken down battered "B" train crawled into the station. Of course it's heaters were not working. By 1987 the subways had improved much. But it took the near collapse of the system to get the political establishment fully involved. It was like nobody was in charge during all those years of neglect and deterioration.
It was during that era I retired my camera. The buses were just as bad. A bus drive could leave his bus on the street for a cup of coffee, and the bus would have a new paint job.
BTW. Davis Gunn turned things around.
Yes, they were. There were hundreds of "red flag" zones on the subway where trains could not exceed 10 mph due to the derailment risk. Subway cars had a MDBF of under 10,000 miles. I'd guess 1/4 of the subway cars didn't have functioning lighting. Crime was a big problem, too.
I have the original articles in my collection. IIRC, not 6 months before, the Daily News ran a series of articles on "A Whole New Subway, Coming At You", and then it was this "Doomsday Express" / "Save Our Subways" series that happened instead. I vividly recall seeing a picture of an R-46 N train runing ont he Sea Beach at about 7th Ave with a retaining wall being held up by timber.
--Mark
IIRC on one morning in January of 1981, 30% of the entire fleet was out of service. My aunt sent me a clipping from the Chicago Tribune about the state of the NY subway back then. Now if I could just find it..
I missed the darkest period of the subway. By the time I returned in 1984, things were starting to turn around.
I just finished reading the articles. They sure describe really depressing conditions of the subways then. Even though I was only 200 miles away, I was oblivious to the conditions back home. My parents, who passed away in 1979 & 1980, last rode transit in 1975, so I guess things were getting bad even then, and they never mentioned it.
I grew up riding the Gate Cars, the Standards and the Lo/V's. Graffiti was not even thought of then, and equipment was in good mechanical shape. Equipment was not washed in those days and so was coated with a cover of grime, but never grafitti. Car interiors were always clean, and delays were caused by minor things such as door holding, not equipment breakdown.
I saw the R-10's go into service, and shortly before I left, the R-16's and R-17's. When I left in 1957, the future of rapid transit in NY looked great to me. I'm glad that my transit memories are so good, and I was not there to witness its decline in the 1970's-80's.
Where were you TA employees off-duty? You whine, bitch and moan for more money. You want continued medical benifits without surcharges and higher pay but will not pay your dues. I came in late to NYC, arrived at my dentists office at the last minute to undergoe root canal cleanup without anesthetics, went home to clean myself up, moved my car and down to Jay Street in my CI Peter uniform. I was a walking wreck, took a few digital pics, got lost on the subway but I was there under adverse conditions. Where were you? CI Peter
I couldn't make it I had thing to do In the Poconos. People down here think I really have an Interesting job. I was hanging around my friends who work at Walmart and thing 7.50 an Hour is a good deal for a 20 year old. I alway lie about my salary and tell them I get $12 an hour.
I couldn't make it I had thing to do In the Poconos. People down here think I really have an Interesting job. I was hanging around my friends who work at Walmart and think 7.50 an Hour is a good deal for a 20 year old. I alway lie about my salary and tell them I get $12 an hour.
Dave: you got buck teeth, hunched back, half blind, always a smile on your face and walk around going 'goink goink goink?' Todays SubTech lesson is TA Genetics 101...identifying TA employees that would like to work for Walmart. On the way to the 'Pokeys' you pass my estate...I-80 at mile marker 14...look to your left at the ex-AT&T antenna tower. Eight acres halfway up the mountain...worked my heart out to develop the property only to see the locals destroy my hard work. So I maintain a home there in which my mother resides and a NYC apartment...dragged my miserable butt out of the dentists office not knowing of any immediate medical reaction. I've been very sick, just not interested in food....because of the dental infection and exposure to the trainset dirt. I was there late but there and you should have been present too. Turnout was pitiful. CI Peter
No, I'm from Pocono MT. H.S. NOT from Pleasant Valley which is considered HICKS town. All I do is smile and say "Stand clear of the Closing doors". I convinced a young lady at the Local Shoprite to take the NYC Bus Operator Exam.
dragged my miserable butt out of the dentists office not knowing of any immediate medical reaction. I've been very sick, just not interested in food....because of the dental infection and exposure to the trainset dirt
Get yourself on an anti-biotic pronto. I've had 3 root canals and 2 tooth extractions; don't fool around with this - it can lead to more serious problems.
--Mark
I've been on the PenVee 500 mG 4x diet...crew looks at me in wonderment at 0930 break: 16 oz orange juice, 8 oz O fat milk in cereal, 8 oz chilled yogurt, 3 slice bread w/cheese, crackers/cake with tea, orange or ginger ale soda, club soda, buttered bagel....on and on. Thanks Mark for your interest. Guts still percolating. CI peter
Just so's you know - that "fortified orange juice" is neutering the KpenV ... might want to switch to coke or pepsi ... Orange juice *IS* known to interfere with antibiotics.
And why bother with yogurt (with culture) until AFTER the antibiotics are over. You are waging WW3 in your intestines
Real men don't eat yogurt. Sorry, just taunting. But you're probably right.
Don't feel too bad. For some reason they need at least a month and a half notice for these things to take off and it was not there this time.
I go to the dentist on my 'last legs.' Appointments are never cancelled. What I did not post is about the flak i would have received if I did not show up despite the fact that a buddy told me to notify the 239th shop steward about the medical necessity...just to avoid the flak. Anal retentitivity till my colon busts. Four hours of sleep and don't mess with me....no show commies and swamis
sucking up TA employment need not break my chops Thursday. We all have good work and good pay, can use righteous pay increases and maintained medical benefits. Management and rank in file can work together for a common cause to keep our city alive and MAKE TRAINS GO.
Slackers need not apply. Those who subscibe to the 'plantation mentality concept' should be picking bananas in the jungle. Give ema few months in real world private industry and.....
CI peter
So that's why there was all those cops over by Tillary and Cadman Plaza West yesterday...saw them setting up barricades on the park perimeter on my lunch hour.
Doesn't society have the right to be protected from us?
Trackworker Toussaints music was far louder than having your ear
next to the brake control unit when the trainset goes BIE in static tests. The barriers were set up to protect your hearing.
Did they play tons of Bob Marley again. I was surpised to see all these old guys that knew all the words.
I am still sneezing up blood so I took a pass.
Bob Marley and more. You really had to see the 'boogie down dancing.'
Especially when the plug was pulled on the CD drive. Worse than BIE in your ear undercar. Worse than 'Ratz' ass shaking. 239th shop steward was behind Ratz the inflatable Rat. CI peter
Now that is an idea. Wear a suit with a rat mask and give pro management speeches at the TA rallies.
Maybe they don't want the same fate as their Brothers got at the "private" bus companies. Roger you did a very bad thing for those boys & girls. On-the-job training doesn't seem to be working for you.
Gee, Thurston, do I hear a change of tune or did I mis-read some previous post. Thought Rog was your guy.
Last time I looked my business card said Manager.
I'm an old Teamster who believes that both sides need to be equal for there to be serious give & take between the parties. I thought Roger was going to be a refreshing change. Not necessarily loved by the guys on the other side of the table, but respected in any case, now I'm not so sure about him.
Roger said, "The boys wanted a strike, so I let them have their strike." Gee great leadership there. Then he lets them stay out there with almost no hope of getting anything to punish them ... or did he let it go on for HIS own reasons. In any case a bunch of members got screwed by the union & the City.
I'm pretty new here, although I've lurked for at least 2 years. I enjoy the discussion of New York City Subways, and I'm saddened that a contreversy has taken over the board. I hope that by presenting an objective point of view, I can help to reconcile the rifts so that we can all get back to the discussions we came here for. If I am out of line in doing this, please forgive me.
I don't work for the MTA and I've never met anybody involved in this, but it seems that 2 people made 3 mistakes in the incident. They were big mistakes, but we all do things that we shouldn't have at times in our lives.
Mistake 1: The Train Operator should not have invited Salaam Allah into the cab. The TO probably thought that it was a simple favor, and certainly didn't see any harm in it, but it started a chain of events that had bad consequences.
Mistake 2: Salaam Allah should not have entered the cab. It is understandable that after traveling this far to take video, he jumped at the opportunity to do so, but I'm sure that if he had thought carefully about it, he would have concluded that it was a bad idea.
Mistake 3: Salaam Allah should not have disclosed anything the Train Operator said to him. From reading the posts involved, I conclude that this was not done with malice, but with genuine concern. Salaam Allah seems to have misunderstood the other posters' admonishments and took them as simple hostility, causing him to repeat the comments in an effort to demonstrate his concern.
The bottom line is that nobody meant ill. It was an unfortunate incident, and there is blame for everybody involved. For the good of SubTalk, and all of its worthwhile discussion, I hope that everybody will try to forgive and move on. We can't change what happened, nor can we unpost what was posted. We can however learn from past errors, and I hope that everybody involved will do that.
Welcome to the board. Be advised, that there is always some kind of controversy going on here! Just do not read these kinds of posts.
Thank you Hauk. Words well expressed. CI peter
Hey HUAK, why don't you reprint your "Reliability" post from Straphangers.org? It was an interesting topic. You'll get much more insight from these readers than the ones on Straphangers.
A very nice post.
Welcome to the fraternity of SubTalk posters, Huak.
Mistake 2: Salaam Allah should not have entered the cab.
I will not disagree with this statement, but would wonder how many of us would decline an invitation for a cab ride. Last December Jersey Mike tried to organize a SubTalk SEPTA trip. For whatever reasons, only four of us rode Regional Rail and BSS. The four of us (two age 19 or 20 [plus-or-minus 2] and two around 60) were invited into the cab of a train to Lansdale. We had a marvelous time. I took a photo that showed a good profile of JM in the cab, but I never uploaded it because the engineer was identifiable.
Near the end of our journeys, we entered a Ridge Ave express train at Fern Rock (Broad Street Subway), first car, of course. The motorman knew one of our group (and embarrassed him by publicly praising his intelligence and good manners) and invited us into the cab once we left Olney. Should we have declined? Again, how many of us would decline an invitation for a cab ride?
Broad Street Subway
s.b. express to Ridge Ave connector
You should have refused the offer to get into the Broad Street subway cab if you knew the T/O had no authority to admit you.
A similar ride took place on the MBTA during the summer of 2000. I was not at the Subtalk "Boston T Party", but I do know that the motorman on the red line let everyone have a full-cab view, though I don't know if anyone had a video camera with them. I think the motorman knows that he might be doing railfans a favor, even when he knows he is not supposed to do that. If he gets caught, then hopefully the railfans will try to stick up for him or her, but there are no guarantees. -Nick
I have been offered cab rides on the R143 (although I think it was a TSS who made the offer, it was from about Myrtle to ENY during the test period on the L) and twice on the Acela Express (rear power car in NJ for about 10 minutes and front power car from Baltimore to Wilmington) by the conductor. I never declined. All the times I have asked before taking pictures if I could do so. I was also aware that I really did not belong there. I do thank the individuals involved in these cab rides. The R143 TSS and T/O did have me leave before arriving at ENY "because there is too much brass around here" which I do understand.
Welcome Huak. You will be exposed to intelligent transit-related discussion unlike that silly Rider Diaries! ;P
You said it great. If you see many of the posts that Salaam Allah posted prior to his trip here, he was very excited about it. It's a very unfortunate occurance that all this happened. It was not done with malice. While I agree with a lot of what was said, it is easy to say a lot of the things that were said in hindsight. I think everyone should just give it a rest.
Hopefully a lot of people learned something from Salaam Allah's experience.
The September 16, 2002 issue of New York magazine has a feature called "9/11 by the Numbers" on page 54. There is a photograph of a 6 train in a sea of rubble. The caption states "OFF LINE: A demolished 6 train amid the rubble at ground zero." It is my understanding that no NYCT trains were damaged or destoyed that day, much less a 6 train, which is nowhere near the World Trade Center. Is the photo a hoax?
The only train I know of in the WTC collapse, was an empty PATH train in the station under the trade center. It was in all the news stories when it was uncovered.
I think the magazine found in its files a pic of a damaged #6 train and assumed it was from 9/11.
So much for editing at New York Magazine.
New York Magazine. Heh. Guess some folks don't know ...
New York Magazine,
P.O. Box 420235,
Palm Coast, FL 32142-0235
If they can't count votes, you expect them to proofread news? :)
"Palm Coast"? That figures.
Always pays to check out where your "sources" come from. The "news" business isn't as sincere as it once was, and the old rules of journalism went completely out the window with "24 hour news" ... :)
Actually, I believe their offices are still at 39th and Second Ave., but as ultra-trendy as the current editors of the magazine have made it -- in other words, miles away from what Clay Felker started at the New York Herald Tribune in 1964 -- the less likely it is anyone on staff there has a clue about the subways (I'm suprised the copy also didn't mention the No. 6 train being part of the "Green Line" in the subway system).
Well, if you can't tell the difference between a 6 train and a PATH train and you purport to be a resource for New York ... well ... I remember Clay Felker ... my girlfriend at the time was one of many circulation managers that Felker chewed up and spit out, a genuine piece of work. The words "service journalism" still echo in my ears after all these years. I think he sold it to Rupert somewhere in the 70's though and went back to Esquire ... kinda hazy on the details, rightly don't care. :)
Can't say Felker was the greatest human being in the world. My dad worked with at the Trib the same time he did and I think "arrogant" was the term I remember being associated with him. But at least he did have a clue about New York outside of the narrow world of clubs, boutiques, galliers and high-end furniture stores that the current establishment seems to think is all the city is about.
And, yea, Felker ended up at Esquire in the 70s, where he did a redesign on it, trying to turn it into something resembling a national version of his New York Magazine. Didn't work, and when he was ousted the next editor began moving it more towards the men's services niche its in now (which has problems of its own IMHO).
I was actually invited to work there at New York magazine but when I met the editor, I was less than impressed and didn't follow up on it. But yeah, I've heard what a piece of work Felker was. :)
Well a few of the news channels a few weeks ago were talking about how the 1/9 subway line was reopening. They then showed footage of the PATH station and train that was in that station last year. While they were showing that they were talking about how the 1 and 9 subway line was severely damaged in the attacks, while the cameras are looking right at the PATH train with debris.
And it's not like reporters get paid enough that they can afford to avoid the subway. I don't get it ... pretty serious journalistic negligence in my book ...
It is, and I didn't even mention that one of the news channels (I forget which) showed that scene of the totaled PATH train, and one of the PATH logos were fully visable! It didn't even look like anything to do with the 1/9 line, the line the whole story was about!
Well ... all I can say is back in the 70's when I pounded a beat for a cheezy check, you would have been fired on the spot by a news director for embarassing the fifth estate ... from my own personal experience as a former journalist though, I just can't watch TV news anymore and have about as much respect for most of the newspapers.
We're lucky up here in Smallbany - we have the Times Union (amazingly a Hearst joint) and there's STILL some semblance of journalistic ethics practiced on a near daily basis (so long as you don't take the AP inserts at face value) ... :)
I love delicious dish as much as the next person, but in fairness to New York magazine, their editorial offices are at 444 Madison Avenue in New York, and the Florida address is for subscriptions. I assume this task is farmed out to another firm. However, the fact remains that fact-checking as a function of "journalism" died out with the Herman's Head television show.
(And I so wanted to blame Katherine Harris, Jeb's minion, for this gaffe.)
Heh. Sorry if I got it wrong there, that IS the address of the offices of the magazine in the USPS Publisher's statement filing. It's NOT supposed to be a "drop box" ... but I'd expect that if they are still in NYC, they'd be able to spot a 6 train properly. I would have been easier on them if they were out of towners. :)
Thwn what was the damaged "6" train from?
I didn't take the pic and I didn't read the magazine. Is there something in the background to suggest where the pic is taken?
I can take a small guess. If it's an R62A, it was probably involved in one of those Bronx derailments around Hunts Point Ave. If it's a redbird, I can't recall any 6 line redbirds involved in any accidents. I know there is a pic of a damaged R62A at 207 yards on this website, but my guess it was probably from the Van Cortlandt fleet and not Westchester.
Westchester. 1909.
The only damaged 6 train in a pile of rubble I can remember is car 1901 which was damaged in a derailment at the Hunts Point station lying in a scrap yard.
Its not 1901. 1901 is alive and well. It currently sees service on the 3 and GCS lines. I believe the car that has been scrapped is 1909.
I finally saw the photo today. It's a head-on shot of the car with no number visible, but I'm almost certain it's 1909 at Witte Marine Salvage, Staten Island.
This is how urban legends get started ....
--Mark
a 6 train at WTC,it,s a hoax.
Semi off-topic here, but the Post has a story this morning on a federal judge ruling against Larry Silverstein's claim that the WTC attacks were two seperate incidents. It's only for three smaller sub-insurers, but carried out over all, it would cut the payout from $7 billion to $3.5 billion.
What this would mean is it's more likely that the Port Authority would have to pick up at least part of the tab for rebuilding anything at the WTC site. And since the prevailing sentiment among the key pols right now is to build nothing, then the result could be Larry gets his $3.5 billion, but it would be to build somewhere else, while the full 16 acres goes into a memorial (which in turn would make the need for a major redesign of the PATH-1/9-A/C/E-2/3-N/R connections at the WTC less likely because there isn't going to be anything above it but parks, plaques and statuary).
"And since the prevailing sentiment among the key pols right now is to build nothing, then the result could be Larry gets his $3.5 billion, but it would be to build somewhere else, while the full 16 acres goes into a memorial (which in turn would make the need for a major redesign of the PATH-1/9-A/C/E-2/3-N/R connections at the WTC less likely because there isn't going to be anything above it but parks, plaques and statuary). "
Nonsense. The pols have no such sentiment. Their sentiment is to build, but in such a way as to muzzle the memorial-only crowd (and frankly, I agree with them). Your analysis is a little like saying 2 +2=5 because I left a blank space next to the 1.
There is coniderable public support (I won't claim a majority) for building LESS than the 11 million square feet destroyed in those 16 acres. Silverstein's insurance money may pay for 7 million square feet, and that could be what we end up with.
Too early to tell, of course.
You're pointing to a likely decision to build with the market rather than in anticipation of it. That means it won't take 10 years to fill the buildings.
If you build with the market, by the time the buildings are finished another recession has hit and they will stand vacent for 20 years.
There is no need to replace all of the approx. 10 million sq. ft. of office space destroyed in the attacks. The displaced firms have mostly relocated to midtown or the suburbs. I don't see a scenario where companies would be in a rush to move back to the downtown area. Even the NYSE is thinking of opening a 2nd trading facility in Westchester.
The terrorist attacks accelerated the trend of businesses to disperse their operations from the cities, not just NYC. The link below makes the point that technology has reduced the need for large concentrations of employees. Maybe executives have had enough of the cities for a lot of reasons and 9/11 was the final tragic event that is making them rethink location strategies in ways they never had to.
From the WSJ - -
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110002151
"There is no need to replace all of the approx. 10 million sq. ft. of office space destroyed in the attacks. The displaced firms have mostly relocated to midtown or the suburbs."
Two points:
1. The next terrorist target is going to be midtown, not downtown, because that's now the center of American commerce.
2. By your reasoning, why don't we just pack our bags and all move to the suburbs? Then we can all be dispersed and drive to work like the vast majority of people in the rest of the country, and we don't have to talk about transit issues any more.
There are business benefits to density that offset the risks of congestion and terrorism.
I'm not saying that businesses should pack up and head for the suburbs. But you can't ignore what's already happened in terms of ex-WTC relocations. You also can't ignore (even if you disagree with) the trends in the WSJ article, especially in terms of what and how much will eventually be constructed on the WTC site.
Exactly how many companies have relocated to Midtown on a permanent basis? Somehow I suspect that many of them will be returning to the WTC area if and when the reconstruction is done.
Tenants from the destroyed buildings are avoiding downtown for midtown and NJ. Tenants from damaged buildings are mostly remaining downtown -
http://www.TenantWise.com/wtc_relocate.asp
--
Breakdown of destroyed and damaged properties -
http://www.TenantWise.com/wtc_relocate.asp
They have to avoid downtown. Not enough space for them currently.
That was an interesting article, Dan, and it represents one point of view. Not everyone agrees with it.
Technology has not completely invalidated "clustering." While people can work "virtually" (I do) the WTC site offered synergies that the most advanced teleconferencing still cannot support.
The article offers anecdotal stories of companies rejecting the clustering concept, but conveniently ignores the fact that a majority of business still embraces it. The author is wrong: In New York, companies have not really declustered. They've set up new clusters in Midtown and Jersey City. People still want to be around other people in similar lines of work, regardless of the Internet. The caveat, though, is that critical facilities like IT should be redundant and located more spread out.
The WTC tragedy does present an opportunity: Reconfigure transportation infrastructure and other services, and businesses will return to a more effective downtown clusters from the other clusters. The fact that some businesses now have long-term leases elsewhere isn't really relevant, because a) new businesses will replace them b) even long-term leases can be broken for the right price. If downtown NY becomes cheaper than a suburban Westchester location, companies will break leases, pay the fee and return.
I agree with that, especially your last paragraph.
I just hope we're right enough...
Technology has not completely invalidated "clustering." While people can work "virtually" (I do) the WTC site offered synergies that the most advanced teleconferencing still cannot support.
The article offers anecdotal stories of companies rejecting the clustering concept, but conveniently ignores the fact that a majority of business still embraces it. The author is wrong: In New York, companies have not really declustered. They've set up new clusters in Midtown and Jersey City. People still want to be around other people in similar lines of work, regardless of the Internet. The caveat, though, is that critical facilities like IT should be redundant and located more spread out.
Telecommuting is one of those ideas that's almost the next new thing. As far as I can tell, it's never come close to the critical mass that's needed to make it a realistic alternative for more than a small minority of workers. I really do not believe that the aftereffects of the terrorist attacks are going to change anything.
Which is fine, since the only way to put 11 million square feet of office space on that sight is to build at least 2 office towers of comparable height to the twin towers, something which will not happen.
"Which is fine, since the only way to put 11 million square feet of office space on that sight is to build at least 2 office towers of comparable height to the twin towers, something which will not happen."
Actually, the six proposals floated by the LMDC each proposed 11 million square feet without tall towers.
There are 16 acres on the site. The footprints take up 2 acres, leaving 14 acres to build on.
You can build 40 story buildings on less than 7 of those acres (7 acres = 300K square feet) and get 11 million square feet. This works because 4, 5, and 6 WTC were relatively short buildings.
40 story building won't even be visible from New Jersey or Brooklyn. You might as well leave the space empty.
Or build a giant stone pyramid, because what better way to commemorate the end of our society which glorified life and its replacement with one that wallows in death? And hey, 4 of the hijackers were from Egypt!
I'm sure this plan would please the Lower Manhattan Destruction Corporation.
"Which is fine, since the only way to put 11 million square feet of office space on that sight is to build at least 2 office towers of comparable height to the twin towers, something which will not happen. "
WIMPS!!!
We are all losers for not rebuilding the twin towers. We're letting the terrorists make the damage permanent, and letting depression get the better of us.
Nonsense. The pols have no such sentiment. Their sentiment is to build, but in such a way as to muzzle the memorial-only crowd (and frankly, I agree with them). Your analysis is a little like saying 2 +2=5 because I left a blank space next to the 1.
Not only that, but the surrounding area will still need that mass transit hub, even if the whole site is to become a memorial (which would be a mistake, IMHO).
Don't argue with me, argue with Pataki -- he controls half the Port Authority and has been voicing sympathy for those in favor of building nothing there. (I'm not even including Giuliani in this, though he's said the same thing).
If George decides nothing will be built there, the PA is not going to chip in a dime to build anything at the WTC site, which leaves Silverstein $3.5 billion short of doing it on his own.
"If George decides nothing will be built there, the PA is not going to chip in a dime to build anything at the WTC site, which leaves Silverstein $3.5 billion short of doing it on his own."
George isn't going to decide nothing will be built there. That would open the PA up to multi-billion dollar lawsuits. He will continue to expres sympathy for that idea because sympathy gains votes and doesn't cost money.
Silverstein doesn't need the full $7 billion to rebuild. He can probably build less square footage for $3.5 billion. If he defaults on his mortgages for some reason, his mortgage holders will sell his rights and someone else will build.
Buildings will be built there. We just don't know what they will look like, how many square feet, or when.
Pataki has said nothing of the kind. He offers support for a memorial, nothing more. He has never supported reserving the entire site for a memorial, and has in fact strongly supported rebuilding efforts. His advocacy was responsible for the initial building plans.
You're right about the area east of Greenwich Street, but Pataki has backed those opposing any construction on the WTC 1 and 2 footprints, and seemed to be willing to expand that area while meeting with family members of victims prior to the Sept. 11 anniversary.
My feeling is you can still build something with a considerable amount of office space even if only the eight acres east of Greenwich are used, and $3.5 billion could build a lot in that area. Whether or not Silverstein wants to or will be able to do anything with that section of the WTC site remains to be seen, since the tighter the space, the taller the building will have to be to meet his office space rental reuirements, but the taller the building the more it would come into conflict with the Ground Zero memorial next door.
I can see conceding the "footprints." I hope they don't give up too much else.
The site west of Greenwich includes not only the two footprints and their immediate surroundings, but also all of 6 WTC. Nobody died there either. Only the most fanatical memorialists are unwilling to build there.
As I keep saying, you only need 7 acres of 40 story buildings to reproduce 11 million square feet. There is plenty of room while staying well away from the footprints.
Given all the posturing about even allowing PATH trains to run underneath the footprint of WTC 2 (where it's only been for, what? 91 years now?), I'd be suprised if anything besides a visitor's center building/Ground Zero museum gets built outside the footprints west of Greenwich. I just hope the area to the east can be redeveloped, and not added on to the memorial site.
I predicted not long after the attacks that in five years or so, the WTC site would be an empty, weed-filled lot surrounded by a graffiti- and poster-covered sagging wooden fence. Looks like I'm going to be correct.
If your predictions are as correct as they were about East Sidfe Access (it'll never get done) Jamaica Center, and a few other things, I'm glad you're not a stockbroker. Your clients would be losing their shirts. They'd be better off with a crystal ball!
Do you actually spend any time at all in the city, or do you just sit out on the island and imagine to yourself how those mythical city residents live?
If your predictions are as correct as they were about East Sidfe Access (it'll never get done) Jamaica Center, and a few other things, I'm glad you're not a stockbroker. Your clients would be losing their shirts. They'd be better off with a crystal ball!
How is that any different from a real stockbroker's clients?
I'll believe East Side Access/Second Avenue Subway/Jamaica Center as Beverly Hills East/WTC reconstruction if and when I actually see them.
"I'll believe East Side Access/Second Avenue Subway/Jamaica Center as Beverly Hills East/WTC reconstruction if and when I actually see them."
What magnification lenses should I send you for your roof-top telescope?
"I predicted not long after the attacks that in five years or so, the WTC site would be an empty, weed-filled lot surrounded by a graffiti- and poster-covered sagging wooden fence. Looks like I'm going to be correct."
There will definitely be a working PATH station used by thousands of commuters.
There will definitely be a sturdy fence so that no one can fall into the 80 foot pit.
Work will almost certainly have begun on the pedestrian corridor linking the WFC, PATH, a new IRT Cortlandt St. station, and subway lines further east.
You could easily be right that work on new buildings won't have started. That probably depends more on the strength of the current recession than anything else.
You could easily be right that work on new buildings won't have started. That probably depends more on the strength of the current recession than anything else.
I believe that the obstacles to rebuilding will be more political or emotional than economic. Business cycles change, so I don't see economic conditions as being that relevant. What probably is going to prevent any development, at least for many years, is all the nonsense about preserving the whole site as a memorial park - what a ridiculous idea!
People will get over that soon enough. This is New York after all.
The remaining holdouts will get bought off, and we'll be back to business.
People will get over that [keeping the entire WTC site as a memorial] soon enough. This is New York after all.
The remaining holdouts will get bought off, and we'll be back to business.
I would hope so. What makes me somewhat skeptical is the fact that whining has displaced baseball as the national pastime. America has slowly but surely become a nation of victims.
I'm mildly surprised that the "families of the victims" haven't complained about reconstruction of the 1/9 tunnel and PATH.
"I'm mildly surprised that the "families of the victims" haven't complained about reconstruction of the 1/9 tunnel and PATH."
Some were in fact very unhappy to see construction work going on this spring, according to an article in the Times. I believe they were being escorted by Whitehead (director of LMDC), who tactfully told them that it was necessary.
"Some were in fact very unhappy to see construction work going on this spring, according to an article in the Times. I believe they were being escorted by Whitehead (director of LMDC), who tactfully told them that it was necessary."
At some point, you have to take care of the living. The dead aren't coming back no matter what you do, or don't do.
"What probably is going to prevent any development, at least for many years, is all the nonsense about preserving the whole site as a memorial park - what a ridiculous idea!"
Politicians will express great sympathy toward that view. They will say they have considered it, feel everybody's pain, etc. Then the PA will approve building eanywhere on the site except probably the footprints of the two towers, plus some additional memorial area.
(You only need 7 acres of 40 story buildings to produce 11 million square feet.)
This way, they will avoid appearing like tactless clods, and still get the economic development that is needed.
This way, they will avoid appearing like tactless clods, and still get the economic development that is needed.
Do you think that these spineless cowardly dwarfs will be sufficiently protected by the World Financial Center in front of them?
OH NO, I'M SCARED!
You would be WRONG.
It would be surrounded by a clean metal fence, they've already built half of it.
I think, on the contrary, that you're very unlikely to be correct. You *might* get a 16-acre memorial park, and if so, I believe it would be carefully tended and looked after. It isn't what most people on this board want, but it would be dignified and decent.
What I've always wondered is:
If they build a 16 acre memorial park, will they backfill all of the land into the bathtub? From where? Will they tear down BPC and suck all that dirt into the pit or will they leave it as a dark, dusty pit?
The wonders of necrocracy never cease to boggle the mind.
A couple of notes about this.
There are still about 7 other insurers which may still yet have to pay their proportional share for a 2-event loss. This, though, is unlikely and it seems that most if not all will be able to show that Silverstein had coverage only for one building.
Silverstein will get $3.5B, but it isn't necessarily money he can use to build anywhere else. Remember, he has a 99 year lease on the WTC land for which he still owes annual payments. If he doesn't build anything on that site or re-negotiate his lease with the PA, he'll be bleeding cash in a hurry.
The likely outcome from this is one that will probably please the masses. Silverstein gives up the lease on part of the space to the PA for the purpose of building a sizeable memorial and uses the $3.5B to build a smaller office complex than the original towers, getting tax $$ to fund transit improvements.
CG
Silverstein did not have coverage for one building. He had coverage for one incident. The court ruled that two airplanes flown by the same group of terrorists = one incident.
No, you're mistaken. It shouldn't be surprising because the press doesn't really understand the issues at hand.
He had coverage for multiple incidents, but his policy limits didn't reinstate for related incidents occurring within 72 hours. That's an industry-standard wording aimed at eliminating double recoveries.
Silverstein deliberately underinsured by purchasing only enough coverage for one building ($3.5B). His thinking was that there could be no single incident which would destroy both buildings. Had he purchased the appropriate amount of coverage, there would be no discussion of whether the attack was one occurrence or two.
What Silverstein tried to do was claim that the two planes were unrelated incidents in order to recover two policy limits.
CG
I stand corrected.
If I had been in his shoes, I probably would have made the same decision. This attack was a low-percentage shot.
1) It is possible to make a good decision and have a bad outcome.
2) It is also possible to make a bad decision and then get lucky.
Silverstein qualifies for #1 above.
>>> This attack was a low-percentage shot. <<<
Exactly what insurance is intended for. Because it was such a long shot, the cost of $7 billion coverage would not have been twice the cost of $3.5 billion, possibly only 10% more. With 20/20 hindsight it was not a good decision to forego the additional insurance any more than paying for insurance for many years on buildings that are not destroyed is a bad decision.
Tom
"With 20/20 hindsight it was not a good decision to forego the additional insurance any more than paying for insurance for many years on buildings that are not destroyed is a bad decision. "
1) Without knowing the cost structure of the premiums and coverage details you cannot properly conclude that. You have insufficient information.
2) The percentage of the second tower coming down was so low that mathematically, the expected payoff (cost X percentage) may have been lower with the added premium. In that case, your advice to buy the additional insurance would not be appropriate.
3) This is not entirely dissimilar to the case of additional coverage bought for appliances, cars and houses -the type that, while ostensibly cheap to purchase, really does nothing (most of the time, since this is a percentage game) except fatten the insurer's profit margins.
Next step: the appeal.
Yes, we haven't heard the last of this.
>>> This is not entirely dissimilar to the case of additional coverage bought for appliances, cars and houses <<<
I see a big difference between the risk of needing to repair an appliance and under insuring a building by $3.5 billion. I don't get insurance for appliances, because if one breaks down, I can afford to replace it without more than a temporary setback to my wallet. Similarly, a corporation I once worked for self insured its fleet of vehicles. I cannot do that with a house. The loss of $200,000.00 would be more than I can afford, so I buy insurance, and make sure it does not lapse. The insurance is one of the costs of ownership.
If Silverstein can easily pull $3.5 billion out of his pocket, then it might have been reasonable to be under insured. If not, it was reckless decision.
Tom
No, Tom, you're wrong. It was not automatically a reckless decision. You don't know whether it was or not.
First, you have to determine the odds. Then, knowing the odds, you have to determine the potential loss. Knowing that, you then use the equation I posted earlier: (loss) X %Risk for both cases.
What you're not understanding is this: the % chance of both buildings collapsing was much smaller than one building collapsing. The additional premium paid, in contrast was much larger than the additional protection that Silverstein needed, given the odds.
Multiply your advice by many other buildings around the city, and you wind up paying a lot more in premiums than you need.
Now, it turned out that both buildings were hit, so the outcome was bad. But Silverstein was not reckless. He was actually quite reasonable.
If Silverstein cannot afford to put the buildings back up or pay his bills, then he cuts his losses and walks away, and the PA needs to find another tenant. Note that Silverstein is protecting himself, not the PA.
Do yourself a favor: Talk to an actuary, or a statistician, and present this question to him/her, and then have them work it out on a blackboard for you. That might make it easier to understand.
"I see a big difference between the risk of needing to repair an appliance and under insuring a building by $3.5 billion. I don't get insurance for appliances, because if one breaks down, I can afford to replace it without more than a temporary setback to my wallet. "
You're mixing up things that don't belong together. Someone else may not be able to afford it, and it's not entirely a relevant question anyway. You're missing the point.
"If Silverstein can easily pull $3.5 billion out of his pocket, then it might have been reasonable to be under insured. If not, it was reckless decision. "
If I can, hypothetically, obtain insurance for $100 to cover my house against an asteroid hitting it, should I? It's very cheap, and an asteroid could theoretically hit it (the chance is not zero), and my regular homeowner's policy might not cover it (let's assume it does not, for now). The asteroid would completely destroy my house.
Should I buy the insurance? If the asteroid hits, and I didn't buy the insurance, I lose my house and all my belongings and can't afford to replace them. Would you say I was being reckless, even without working out the odds (again, remember they are not zero). Can you say that would be a waste of money, without knowing the odds?
Tom, I've shown you don't know enough about the situation to make an informed judgment either way. I suggest, again, that you ask a professional, or if you are inclined, consult an actuarial textbook.
I typed in the previous post that Silverstein was being reasonable.
What I should have typed is that Silverstein, based on the odds, reasonably thought he was being reasonable. If you think he was reckless, you have to show why - and my post explains how you do that.
>>> What you're not understanding is this: the % chance of both buildings collapsing was much smaller than one building collapsing. The additional premium paid, in contrast was much larger than the additional protection that Silverstein needed, given the odds. <<<
How do you know the premium for the additional protection was much larger than chance of both buildings collapsing? A policy with a $3.7 billion deductible should have a pretty low premium. And given the number of 100 story skyscrapers that have collapsed in the last 100 years, how would an actuary calculate the chance of either one or both buildings collapsing? If anything, I would think any force great enough to destroy one of the towers could destroy both. Since the most likely thing to destroy the buildings was either an earthquake, nuclear explosion or Godzilla arising from New York harbor, the risk of both being destroyed at one time was not so much higher than only one.
Let's face it, Silverstein was not insuring the full value of the buildings, just the amount to repair them from the largest fire he could imagine. For all I know it is standard practice to under insure skyscrapers. If so, he acted prudently, if not, he took too big a risk.
>>> If Silverstein cannot afford to put the buildings back up or pay his bills, then he cuts his losses and walks away, and the PA needs to find another tenant. Note that Silverstein is protecting himself, not the PA. <<<
This is always the case. That is why bankruptcy laws were written. The question is was that only his capital at risk, or will many investors, including pension funds take a bath along with him? And the PA will need more than just a new tenant. They will need someone with the capital to rebuild.
>>> If I can, hypothetically, obtain insurance for $100 to cover my house against an asteroid hitting it, should I? It's very cheap, and an asteroid could theoretically hit it (the chance is not zero), and my regular homeowner's policy might not cover it <<<
If your homeowner's policy excludes that risk, you have been taken. And again you are using the wrong example. This is under insurance, not an unanticipated risk. If you had two houses on one lot, and limited your recovery in one event to the replacement cost of one of the houses, you would be in a similar position. Anyone who has heard of the Chicago fire, the San Francisco earthquake, or any of several urban riots knows that would be a big risk.
Tom
"If your homeowner's policy excludes that risk, you have been taken. And again you are using the wrong example."
Rather than simply disagree, I suggest you refer this question to a professional -perhaps on a chat site somewhere or a forum where you can ask a hypothetical without paying $$$ - then post the answer here and educate both of us.
I think the example I posted was the right one, but I'll accept an expert's opinio that it is not.
"if you are inclined, consult an actuarial textbook."
Unfortunately, an actuarial textbook doesn't help. Silverstein faced the issue of what he believed were incredibly small odds of an incredibly large catastrophe, and decided not to insure against that. Of course, he was wrong about the odds.
The trouble is that zero times infinity is any number you want it to be, so no textbook can help you with the problem of nearly zero odds of a nearly infinite disaster.
>>> zero times infinity is any number you want it to be, so no textbook can help you with the problem of nearlyzero odds of a nearly infinite disaster. <<<
Actually, zero times infinity is zero. But nearly zero times nearly infinity is an extremely large number.
Tom
I was being deliberately sloppy because it takes a lot of detail to be precise. But since you brought it up, here goes:
If xsubi (I don't know how to do subscripts in HTML) is a sequence of numbers whose limit is zero (i.e., for any positive epsilon, eventually all x's are less than epsilon), and if ysubi is a sequence approaching infinity (i.e., for any N, eventually all y's exceed N), then limit (xsubi)*(ysubi) could approach zero, infinity, some non-zero finite number, or have no valid limit at all.
This is basically the problem of insuring against the tiny probability of an immense catastrophe.
"This is basically the problem of insuring against the tiny probability of an immense catastrophe."
But that sort of analysis is done all the time. Look at Rasmussen's work for the NRC, or the quality analysis done for mission-critical systems on spacecraft or aircraft.
Swiss Re lost this bet (well, one of the bets, to $3.5 billion) when they sold reinsurance to Silverstein's insurer. But that doesn't mean it was a bad bet.
>>> This is basically the problem of insuring against the tiny probability of an immense catastrophe. <<<
I certainly agree with your conclusion, and this is why this type of risk is spread among many re-insurers, as a small part of the portfolio, like speculating in dot com stocks a year or two ago.
Tom
"Of course, he was wrong about the odds."
How do you know that? How did you calculate it?
That was the point I made to Tom.
If you bet money on an 11 or less appearing on two six-sided dice (92% chance), and you roll a 12, does that mean you were wrong about the odds? Were you more likely to win or lose? If you lost, does that mean it was a bad decision? Remember, the other 11 times you win.
The propriety of a decision is based on the odds and the expected payoff - you have to pay attention to both.
"How do you know that? How did you calculate it?"
I just meant he guessed wrong. I did not mean to claim that Silverstein made an inherently imprudent business decision. As I said elsewhere, there is no textbook way to deal in an actuarially sound way with a tiny probability of a terrible catastrophe. You just make your best guess and hope for the best.
"As I said elsewhere, there is no textbook way to deal in an actuarially sound way with a tiny probability of a terrible catastrophe. You just make your best guess and hope for the best."
You're wrong about that - there is a science devoted to it, and we make odds all the time.
Look at the decisions NASA makes, the decisions and methodology the NRC uses, and the way that Sweepstakes payoffs are designed.
"Look at the decisions NASA makes, the decisions and methodology the NRC uses, and the way that Sweepstakes payoffs are designed."
I'm talking about orders of magnitude smaller probabilities and larger payoffs (whether negative or positive).
NASA tries to make small probabilities of disaster smaller still by using redundant engineering. That's a different approach from taking out insurance. The NRC ditto.
Lotteries are dealing with hundreds of millions of chances at an event (someone winning) that will happen once in hundreds of millions of occurrences. So you end up with expectations that are high, like one win per week.
Really your example of asteroid insurance is the best. There is no way to reasonably price that. In particular, try getting insurance for the entirety of New York City against being hit by a giant asteroid that would level the whole place. The chance of it happening is one in a billion (or maybe trillion, who knows?) per year, but if it does hit, the damages are in the trillions. Even if we knew for an absolute fact that the chance is 1 in a billion per year, and the damage would be $10 trillion, would you pay a premium of $10,000 per year? How do you even know the insurance company would be solvent enough to pay your claim?
The other issue with small possibilities of big claims is that insurance companies rely on having many customers in similar situations, but independent of each other. If you have 100,000 car insurance customers, the variance of your payout is far less than 1000 time the variance you would have with 100 customers. With a highly improbable catastrophic event, you can't spread the risk that same way.
"NASA tries to make small probabilities of disaster smaller still by using redundant engineering. That's a different approach from taking out insurance. The NRC ditto."
True - but you still have to calculate odds - and not just odds on the whole, but odds on individual components or events.
Really your example of asteroid insurance is the best. There is no way to reasonably price that. In particular, try getting insurance for the entirety of New York City against being hit by a giant asteroid that would level the whole place. The chance of it happening is one in a billion (or maybe trillion, who knows?) per year, but if it does hit, the damages are in the trillions. Even if we knew for an absolute fact that the chance is 1 in a billion per year, and the damage would be $10 trillion, would you pay a premium of $10,000 per year? How do you even know the insurance company would be solvent enough to pay your claim?
Your comment on insurer solvency brings up another point. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the general consensus following the 1993 attack was that neither tower could be toppled in anything short of a nuclear explosion. Silverstein and his advisors may have reasoned that such a catastrophe probably would bankrupt most or all of the insurance industry, making insurance coverage against that risk pointless. He also may have figured that he, personally, probably would be dead, which may have made the risk not worth insuring against.
That's all possible. But we still don't know what kind of professional advice he got regarding the purchase of insurance. That would be interesting to know.
>>> there is no textbook way to deal in an actuarially sound way with a tiny probability of a terrible catastrophe. You just make your best guess and hope for the best <<<
Although that may be true, the prudent business man leaves the risk taking to the insurance industry. They are the ones who should be taking the best guess and hoping. If the business manager makes the decision that the risk of catastrophe is so slight that he will not buy available insurance to increase his rate of return, he has gotten into the area of gambling. If in fact nothing happens and therefore the enterprise is more profitable, he is a hero. If a catastrophe happens, he has failed his responsibility to the investors.
Tom
"Although that may be true, the prudent business man leaves the risk taking to the insurance industry. They are the ones who should be taking the best guess and hoping."
Not entirely true. The insurance industry is there to make a buck. Their calculations are designed to help them do that. The prudent businessman will weigh the insurer's recommendations for coverage critically, and for a large project like this, hire his own actuary or risk analyst to help him make the insurance purchase decision.
Do you want to assume Silverstein did not do so? If you are right, then he was imprudent.
"If a catastrophe happens, he has failed his responsibility to the investors."
Again, you have insufficient knowledge to make that judgment.
>>> Again, you have insufficient knowledge to make that judgment. <<<
You have it backward, Ron. The fact that there was a tremendous loss makes a prima facie case that the person responsible for conserving the assets for investors screwed up. The onus is on those who believe otherwise to present evidence.
Tom
"You have it backward, Ron. The fact that there was a tremendous loss makes a prima facie case that the person responsible for conserving the assets for investors screwed up. The onus is on those who believe otherwise to present evidence."
I don't agree with you.
Another example: If I as a physician, treat a serious illness (potentially fatal if untreated) with a drug which has a certain percentage chance of a fatal side effect, does my patient's death automatically make a prima fascia case that I screwed up? Clearly that is nonsense, so long as I followed my training appropriately, discussed the risks/benefits truthfully with my patient, and then administrered the drug in an FDA-approved manner.
Do some homework, Tom. Look this up, post an answer here, and teach us how your position is supportable. You've stated your opinion, but you haven't presented a logical proof - and you haven't demonstrated that you know enough about the case (or about the math).
Just do that, and we'll all learn something, yourself included. If you have time to post here, you have time to show some curiosity and find some answers for yourself.
>>> If I as a physician, treat a serious illness (potentially fatal if untreated) with a drug which has a certain percentage chance of a fatal side effect, does my patient's death automatically make a prima fascia case that I screwed up? <<<
No, but the death of a patient after liposuction, or going to the dentist to have a tooth pulled, (both of which have occurred here) would. The management of real estate is not the same as treating a potentially fatal illness.
>>> Do some homework, Tom. Look this up, post an answer here, and teach us how your position is supportable <<<
I do not know what homework you want me to do. The primary rule for managers taught in all business schools is first, conserve the capital, after that make a profit. It is somewhat similar to the physicians' rule of "first do no harm." The manager of a business is like the captain of a ship. When a ship goes down, the captain is presumed to be at fault until cleared by an inquiry. This is not just my opinion but the accepted wisdom.
The ownership of commercial property is one of the most conservative businesses there is (after banking). Unlike high tech and research driven businesses, the return is too low and the property itself is too important in generating income to risk the loss of the capital through under insurance. Adequate insurance and taxes are the basic expenses that need to be taken into account when setting rental rates.
Failing to adequately insure a building because it is indestructible is as much of a mistake as steaming through ice berg infested waters at high speed in an unsinkable ship.
If the insurance is adequate to pay all of the holders of debt, and all the money invested belongs to Silverstein personally, then it is his loss alone, and no one has reason to complain if he decided not to adequately insure the property. That is not likely to be the case, and unless he disclosed to investors that the property would be under insured, he has breached the trust investors placed in him.
Tom
"I do not know what homework you want me to do. The primary rule for managers taught in all business schools is first, conserve the capital, after that make a profit. It is somewhat similar to the physicians' rule of "first do no harm." The manager of a business is like the captain of a ship. When a ship goes down, the captain is presumed to be at fault until cleared by an inquiry. This is not just my opinion but the accepted wisdom. "
I'm not familiar with maritime law, so I can't effectvely rebut this. You may be right about that.
"The ownership of commercial property is one of the most conservative businesses there is (after banking). Unlike high tech and research driven businesses, the return is too low and the property itself is too important in generating income to risk the loss of the capital through under insurance. Adequate insurance and taxes are the basic expenses that need to be taken into account when setting rental rates. "
True, but you haven't shown why the insurance coverage was a priori inadequate. If it covers events that include 99.99% of the risk, it was adequate (the policy did cover the entire property). What happened was a very low percentage shot. Not covering that does not equal inadequate insurannce, necessarily. If his busness decision was reasonable, it was not reckless.
"Failing to adequately insure a building because it is indestructible is as much of a mistake as steaming through ice berg infested waters at high speed in an unsinkable ship."
Wrong example. Again, you haven't shown why it's inadequate. The Titanic only had lifeboats for half its passengers, but that was imprudent because by definition you lose the entiree boat if it sinks. This was not the case at WTC.
"I do not know what homework you want me to do."
Show an approach for estimating risk and why that risk was underestimated in the WTC - specifically, show that the expected payoff for insurance premium paid for both buildings was more than the payoff for one. If your position is correct, then an actuary looking at these would support you.
"Show an approach for estimating risk and why that risk was underestimated in the WTC - specifically, show that the expected payoff for insurance premium paid for both buildings was more than the payoff for one. If your position is correct, then an actuary looking at these would support you."
Ron and Tom, actuarial methodology estimates risk by considering prior available information about similar situations. There was NO way to come up with an actuarially sound estimate of the probability that damage to the WTC would exceed $3.5 billion. The proper approach was BUSINESS JUDGMENT (which is a fancy name for guesswork).
Silverstein and his associates guessed wrong. It's much more a matter of opinion than science whether you think their guess was a reckless business judgment or a sound one. But they weren't alone in their guess.
As Treasurer of my Co-op I have seen first hand that insurance companies do not usually willingly underinsure if you are buying replacement value insurance (i.e., they won't sell you $100K insurance on a house that costs $250K to replace). And the bank holding the mortgage will never let you underinsure if they can help it.
So I strongly suspect that all the insurance company people present at the negotiations also felt that $3.5 billion was a sound business estimate of the maximum possible damage. Certainly all the bankers there were OK with that amount of insurance or they would have demanded more.
"Ron and Tom, actuarial methodology estimates risk by considering prior available information about similar situations. There was NO way to come up with an actuarially sound estimate of the probability that damage to the WTC would exceed $3.5 billion."
False statement. There are enough other catastrophes in history, and enough methodologies which could and have been utilized in other industries, so that at least a ballparkfigure could be arrived at. Probabilistic risk assessment (PRA) is a well-established science. I invite you to read about it yourself.
"The proper approach was BUSINESS JUDGMENT (which is a fancy name for guesswork)."
If you really believe that business judgment = guesswork then you are not a good businessman. Are you sure your Condo owners should trust you if guesswork is all you do?
"As Treasurer of my Co-op I have seen first hand that insurance companies do not usually willingly underinsure if you are buying replacement value insurance (i.e., they won't sell you $100K insurance on a house that costs $250K to replace). And the bank holding the mortgage will never let you underinsure if they can help it."
That is true. Bear in mind, though, that the insurance company wants you to buy more insurance because it structures its pricing so that more premiums = more profit (usually). No insurer will voluntarily leave money at the negotiating table.
An insurer can screw up on routine business when it underestimates claims and doesn't price accordingly - so each policy purchase has an inadequate premium (example: Progressive Insur. Co. underpriced its auto insurance,and then got in trouble when claims exceeded its reserves).
"False statement. There are enough other catastrophes in history, and enough methodologies which could and have been utilized in other industries, so that at least a ballparkfigure could be arrived at."
Exactly what I was saying. You can get a ballpark figure, and that's what everyone discussing insurance at the negotiating table was doing. With proper data (not available in this case), actuarial science produces expected values of losses with variances (i.e., square of standard deviation) for those expected losses.
I'm not claiming you can't get ballpark figures. I'm saying the process of doing so is not actuarial sicence. It's no use trying to find appropriate formulas or methodologies for the WTC in an actuarial textbook.
"Exactly what I was saying. You can get a ballpark figure, and that's what everyone discussing insurance at the negotiating table was doing. With proper data (not available in this case), actuarial science produces expected values of losses with variances (i.e., square of standard deviation) for those expected losses. "
At least you're conceding that's a lot more than guesswork.
"With proper data (not available in this case"
You still don't get it. Reasonably comparable data is available, and may have been used. We weren't at the table.
OTOH: If they were just sitting around the table "guesstimating" then Tom is right.
>>> actuarial methodology estimates risk by considering prior available information about similar situations <<<
I agree with you that there was no actuarial models to use in estimating the chance of a total loss, since no building of this size and type (with computer controlled fire suppression and alarms) had ever been a total loss.
>>> Silverstein and his associates guessed wrong. It's much more a matter of opinion than science whether you think their guess was a reckless business judgment or a sound one. But they weren't alone in their guess.
....
I strongly suspect that all the insurance company people present at the negotiations also felt that $3.5 billion was a sound business estimate of the maximum possible damage. <<<
I agree with you that the decision was not made solely by one person without consultation, but I doubt that the insurance people were ever saying "you could not possibly need more insurance." And of course insuring such a building is not the same as buying a homeowner's policy. If Silverstein, after consultation with experts believed that $3.5 billion would cover the costs of a total loss, it was a serious underestimation, but still in the area of business judgment. OTOH, if he believed that a total loss was $7.0 billion, but the building would never sustain more than a 50% loss, the decision was reckless.
>>> Certainly all the bankers there were OK with that amount of insurance or they would have demanded more. <<<
I am sure the bankers insisted on more than enough insurance to cover their loans, and that is where much of the proceeds will go if Silverstein cannot convince them he has enough capital available to rebuild.
Tom
"OTOH, if he believed that a total loss was $7.0 billion, but the building would never sustain more than a 50% loss, the decision was reckless."
There I agree with you. There is a difference between "never" and "unlikely" - the risk was not zero, after all.
Also note that after the first WTC attack in 1993, which of course was a failed attempt to topple one of the towers, it was widely reported that nothing short of a nuclear bomb could bring one down. And don't forget that on September 11th, no one - including the entire FDNY brass - had even the remotest inkling that a tower could fall until, of course, the south tower collapsed. As a result, neither Silverstein nor any of his advisors considered the loss of both towers to be a risk worth insuring against.
"And don't forget that on September 11th, no one - including the entire FDNY brass - had even the remotest inkling that a tower could fall"
The engineer who designed the towers (Robertson) has been quoted in print and on TV as saying he was sure the towers would collapse as soon as he saw the plane(s) hit. He tried to call 911 to say so but couldn't get through.
The engineer who designed the towers (Robertson) has been quoted in print and on TV as saying he was sure the towers would collapse as soon as he saw the plane(s) hit. He tried to call 911 to say so but couldn't get through.
Maybe. But I'm more than a little skeptical.
Ovaltine.
Have you ever had this stuff?
The mug is round, the jar is round, they should call it Roundtine.
Have line, will snort?
If you are not familiar with the on-going MBTA Type-8 trolley folly, go here and also here. The bottom line is that delivery on the fleet has been suspended, payment stopped, and a lot of finger pointing some FOUR plus years after the first prototype was delivered.
Following are some new pieces of information:
Type-8s have been seen on test runs on the B/Boston College line during overnights
A friend who is a Green Line operator told me yesterday that he is about to go to "Type-8 training." (I asked him if there is a rerailing lesson :-)
Posts on railroad.net suggest that revenue service may resume mid-October.
Todd, congratulations on your museum's newest acquisition. I read all about it in the Parkersburg News & Sentinel:
http://www.newsandsentinel.com/news/story/09242002_new01_Trolley.asp
Good luck on the restoration - I've seen photos of this car, and you'll need all the luck you can get! To be fair, though, there are plenty of people here at IRM who would give their right eye for a good Kuhlman lightweight. Anyway, it's nice to know this car will be preserved.
BTW, any word on that Providence Stone & Webster?
Frank Hicks
Thanks for pointing out that link, Frank, I hadn't seen it. It's a nicely written article. It reminds me of when Conrad and others brought the SIRT car #366 to Maine about ten years ago. I did a CBS radio network report on it - "A Trolley Goes to Maine."
Sorry, I don't have any info on the PS&W... but I'll ask around.
[... the SIRT car #366 to Maine about ten years ago ...]
[... "A Trolley Goes to Maine." ]
Did any of the "trolley guys" correct you, that it ain't a trolley ?
Or if they didn't please tell me your magic so we can use it on our trolley guys.
Maybe if we say it's a interurban < G >
Thurston,
Having just returned from the Northern Branch [SERY], happy to
report Coney Island Yard in York County, Maine is progressing.
So all the various RT acquisitions from Bean Town, Big Apple,
Philly and Windy City will have home trackage. BTW, did see
the Callowhill Inspector latest contribution to the collection
is on site, almond~joy, #178, I think.
SIRT 366 will find a home in C.I., ME. when completed, not as
an Interurban. >G<
;| ) Sparky
Thanks for correcting me, mr. t. In fact, my report was "The Subway goes to Maine." Then again, SIRT isn't really a subway :-)
[Then again, SIRT isn't really a subway :-)]
Right you are, and it ain't a elevated or a LRV either ... maybe Interurban is the correct word ... but then agin 366's replacement, the R-44, is a subway car. Oh well.
FRANK: Thanks for the kind words on 115. Its in Maine now, it looks great. Complete body with a good roof, all its window frames and doors. The seats from the Type 5 #5777 will work (close).
Here's a photo of it in Marietta, OH: http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/odds/wv/htm/clark01.htm
We have a pair of ex-Springfield MA Brill 177E1X trucks with motors for it. We would love any data on the car (starting with paint numbers and any detail photos), it you can spread the word, any loaners will be promptly returned, all data will be appreciated.
BTW, there is now an ex-Providence car in the parking lot of the Cadillac Lounge in Providence (exit 23 on I95, I believe, but check bigyellow.com and mapquest.com), the club owner is an antique car buff who wants to try a trolley restoraton. The car formerly served as the Veterans Square diner in West Warwick, RI, I have no other info on it as of now....
THANKS
Conrad Misek, Boston
Conrad:
I will certainly mention the car at IRM, see if anyone has any photos or other information. I have my doubts - that's sort-of at the eastern limit of IRM's "sphere of influence" (guffaw) - but someone might be able to help out.
Congratulations on another successful rescue - just based on volume, you guys put the "IRM Body Snatchers" to shame!
Frank Hicks
BTW, there is now an ex-Providence car in the parking lot of the Cadillac Lounge in Providence (exit 23 on I95, I believe, but check bigyellow.com and mapquest.com), the club owner is an antique car buff who wants to try a trolley restoraton. The car formerly served as the Veterans Square diner in West Warwick, RI, I have no other info on it as of now....
It's a 1911 Osgood-Bradley car, one of fifty ordered by UER, according to recent articles in the Providence Journal and artinruins.com. The Lounge is located on Charles St between Admiral and Silver Spring Sts; a 1947 Kullman diner was recently sitting on blocks in that parking lot. I hope to check it out this coming weekend.
How many cars does the T have on its property now? Geez, this is pretty bad for the T. But who knows, maybe in mid-October when they resume testing, the Type 8s will finally won't derail. Let's hope...
How many cars does the T have on its property now? Geez, this is pretty bad for the T. But who knows, maybe in mid-October when they resume testing, the Type 8s finally won't derail. Let's hope...
Well, they'll just have to keep the Boeing's & Kinki's going for a bit longer.
There is 11 cars at Reservior and 14 cars at Riverside. The cars they are testing on the BC line are out of Reservior. They have a test trak in the rear of Riverside for the Type 8 testing daily. If you want more info go First in thres and Todd has links to the appropriate info. Stevie
Maybe they can reacquistion PCCs with left side doors & couplers
from SERY. That is if the powers to be would allow the
non-accessioned units to return to Bean Town from the South of Maine.
;| ) Sparky
I dought that they'll do that, but I sure hope they don't take another route out of service "temporally" because of the lack of enough equipment :-(
Visit www.qvdepot.com and click on "Contract 2002" for a complete (so far) list of TWU-100's demands; yes, Queens Village's operating personnel are represented by ATU-1056, but each local pays close attention to what the others are doing.
Anyway, this tidbit, under the heading of "Technology," is most interesting...
"NYCT recognizes that all work that is not of a supervisory or managerial nature, unless currently represented by another bargaining unit, is Local 100 work."
Looks like TWU-100 is summarily claiming representation rights to all non-managerial titles that aren't already represented. Don't those employees have a legal right to - gasp! - DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES whether (and by whom) they should be represented?
Depends. Is this already in effect? If not, then there are two outcomes-
An NLRB supervised vote;
The employees affected will need to start paying dues.
In some cases, they may not be union members, but their contract is negotiated by the union.
-Hank
Closed shop, period
[Is this already in effect?]
Of course not. TWU is demanding representation rights in its NEXT contract, which (by definition) is not yet in effect.
Anyway, my question is whether a UNION has the right to unilaterally assume representation of (and thus collect dues from) employees without their prior consent.
You don't seem to understand. This is the union's bargaining position. Bargaining positions are always unilateral. If management agrees to accept this point in the contract, it will no longer be unilateral. By definition, it will be bi-lateral. So, to answer your question, no, the union cannot do it unilaterally; but it can do it bi-laterally, with management's consent.
In general, union's get to represent workers in one of two ways, either by being "recognized" by management or by being elected by the workers. Either way is legal. Once a union is recognized, unhappy workers do have procedures for getting rid of it; but doing so isn't easy.
Looks like TWU-100 is summarily claiming representation rights to all non-managerial titles that aren't already represented. Don't those employees have a legal right to - gasp! - DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES whether (and by whom) they should be represented?
This isn't a "right-to-work" state, so I don't know. I have always thought that mandatory union membership is almost Sovietesque in it's unfairness.
That's right, "right to work" states ("right to work" must be one of the most misleading terms ever invented by management hacks) have much better working conditions. Under such laws, management can pull all sort of tricks to divide the workers. By weakening the union (often by misleading workers or offering special treatment to management kiss ups) they can reduce the ability of the union to gain benefits for the workers. "Right to work" takes much of the force away from a union's major bargining leverage, a strike. In a right to work state, management can simply stone wall the union knowing full well that some percentage of the workers desperately need the paycheck. Management basically refuses to negotiate and in due time the union is broken. Yea, "right to work" is the greatest tool every invented by the rich and powerful to use againt the workers.
Yea, "right to work" is the greatest tool every invented by the rich and powerful to use againt the workers.
I should not have to be compelled to join a labor union to get a job, atleast in non-civil service fields. Almost all of this country's manufacturing jobs have relocated to "right-to-work" states.
>>> Almost all of this country's manufacturing jobs have relocated to "right-to-work" states. <<<
And the manufacturing which had been in those states moved to off shore sweat shops. I hope you do not think those relocations were because the workers wanted them.
Tom
You are right. Manufacturing involving relatively unskilled labor (sewing, for example) goes to places like Guatemala and the Phillipines. But those places don't have skilled machinists, metallurgists, materials specialists and jig-builders who can assemble airplanes. On the other hand, Mesa, Arizona does, and offers the chance to do that kind of work more cheaply than at, say, Ridley PA.
The funny thing is you really do not save as much as you think on that third world labor for certain sewed goods.
The quality and quantity of work done on those 3K industrial computerized sewing machines is much better than that of your grandmas Singer. And of course you don't bother bying that when your labor is $5 a day Vs $6.50 an hour. Errors are higher on high end stuff which is a problem as most of that stuff has customized fabrics and the loss of an extra piece or two on piece good can sometimes make up for the labor cost.
Of course it is cheaper to hand bead a Bob Mackie dress overseas.
Good point. However, I believe that much overseas work is piece work, paid very very low, and further the employer can decide not to pay for a garment stitched improperly.
I am not defending the use of sweatshop labor, by the way.
My point was more that even on the low end UNITE workers may not be the cheapest but with good management and top equipment they are very competitive overall.
People see that low price on China made and move there but the extra costs of bribes, low quality (after the first few orders) and transportation really take a toll.
I was referring to skilled manufacturing jobs Unskilled jobs have long since deserted. Many foreign auto manufacturers have located their American factories in southern RTW states. I'd rather live in Tupelo MS than Flint MI if I'm an auto worker.
The graet test of the 80's Saturn still may have little to do with RTW.
Build a new state of the art ergonomic factory laid out with JIT manufacturing in mind with a young workforce trained on the newest methods, tax abatements up the kazoo and you might do just about the same up north too.
>>> I was referring to skilled manufacturing jobs Unskilled jobs have long since deserted. Many foreign auto manufacturers have located their American factories in southern RTW states. <<<
Auto assembly is not skilled labor for the most part. Remember, the UAW (along with the UMW) was at the heart of the CIO, which the craft unions of the AFL looked down their noses at.
Tom
Auto assembly is not skilled labor for the most part.
Yes it is. They don't build cars like Ford built his Model T's anymore. Most of the "unskilled" duties in car manufacturing has been taken over by robots.
>>> Most of the "unskilled" duties in car manufacturing has been taken over by robots. <<<
Although there are less of them, the assembly line workers are hired off the street and given just a few days training. That does not make them any where near the traditional skilled trades such as machinists and tool and dye makers which require lengthy apprenticeship.
Tom
I can go along with that position only as far a an "agency" shop. If you are employeed at company that has a contract with a union, the majority of the benefits are there because of the union's bargining for them. If there was no union, there would (in 90% of the cases) be less benefits and the cost to the worker would be greater. So while forcing workers to join the union may be probelmatic, those who think they are saving a few bucks by not joining (saving the dues) should either be compelled to pay some fee for the benefits the union has won for him/her.
That could still happen in other states if the union bargains foolishly or if there isno provision for strike pay.
This is about WEB workers who are treated VERY poorly. Or contractors that use non union out of state labor?
Maybe TWU has the Work Experience Program (WEP) participants in mind. However, the statement is very broad as worded, and applies as much to planners and analysts as to WEP workers.
It would NOT apply to contractors, though. Contractors are not Transit employees, and thus could not be covered by an agreement between Transit and any union.
There is a BIG issue with contractors.
Much of the work can be done in house with union labor but they often pay more to have represented work done by lower paid people at a higher cost. If they had union salraries and safety rights it might stop. REally to farm out the work and not save money?
Contractor flagging is even worse than the track department. The track dept when they do bad flagging usually only risk their own lives. These contractors risk mine by swinging ladders out as I am coming into the station or leaving electrical wires hanging off the side of the plat.
As for the analysts, I assume you are one. On my one visit over at Livingston during the day at 10 am I saw no one working unless you count looking at golf magazines and Goldmine.
That IS some serious stuff, especially the twirling ladders. Look at what a small piece of rebar did to a redbird a few months ago. Yow.
I think I would win Vs a ladder held by a person. The question is would the glass in the cab(which is what I care about).
Well, that's really more of what I meant. If it happened at the near end of the platform entering, it'd be a real bad day. Then again, chances are (read this as *I HOPE*) it's tempered safety glass that'll stay largely together rather than spray ... still, not something you'd want happening on a run.
Ever take a BRICK through the cab glass? I did. Got cut up bad enough to ABD ...
[As for the analysts, I assume you are one.]
Was, until a managerial promotion about six years ago. Which raises another question...
Would TWU start grieving promotions to managerial titles on the grounds of losing members and dues? (The Organization of Staff Analysts tried that, and failed.)
My boss is in a union just a different one.
Oh here we go again about Plantation Mentality.....WEPS are so very lucky to be dragged off the stret into a introductory work program. CI Peter
Yes, and no. It does help some people learn work habits or to try again when they have given up and it makes it harder to scam the sysytem.
But how long do you stay in the program? People are there over a year some now over two. There is a hiring freeze on cleaners and in a budgetary game they pay other departments overtime to clean the bathrooms and such.
In RTO they have people cleaning crew rooms at $33-36 an hour when you could give that WEP wroker a raise to the starting salary of $12 14 an hour, get them off of welfare, medicaid and section 8 as they move to full pay and show people it does make sense to try to work. AND the TA would save some money
I believe this is intended to prevent the "contracting out" of work, and having it done in-house by Local 100 members.
>>> Looks like TWU-100 is summarily claiming representation rights to all non-managerial titles that aren't already represented. <<<
No, it is intended that the job be a "union shop." It is a union security provision to prevent non-union employees working on the job. If any employer could set up new categories of (non-managerial) jobs, and allow workers in the new categories to be non union, offering the same pay and benefits as they do to the union workers, union workers will begin to think their dues are an unnecessary expense. This could lead to dissatisfaction with the union, and therefore a weakening of the union.
Other categories of jobs are "agency shop" in which non-union members must donate to the union an amount equivalent to the union dues on the theory that they are getting the benefits of the bargaining that the union does so they should pay an equivalent amount as union members, and "open shop" where union membership is voluntary and non-union members pay nothing to the union.
Tom
Of course, new titles, that is why it was under the technology section.
Thanks Tom, you are an Oldie but a Goodie
Tom,
Does that mean we must assume that prospective employees in new categories of work cannot choose to organize under a different union?
Although it is posible to petition for a representation election after management "recognizes" a union, ousting an entrenched union is never easy.
See also my comment here.
I don't read the proposal as trying to set up a union shop. (As you have defined the terms, I believe that the law requires an agency shop.) Instead, the proposal seems to be seeking to change the scope of the bargaining unit represented by the union.
The R-27 through R-30 series came into service in 1960 and 1961, but the last of them were gone from service by 1993. Why were these cars retired so early? I thought most cars are kept until around age 40.
I suspect the "deferred maintenance" of the 1970's shortened their lives but if so, why were they rebuilt?
32 years is not early retirement (except to rabid railbuffs). The car builders were no longer in business, new rolling stock was coming and the MTA could not afford to continue to maintain a large fleet of carbon-steel cars with old motors. And the MTA wanted cars which would be better able to serve the disabled and graffitti resistant, which these weren't. They were retired because it was appropriate to retire them.
Also, the TA wanted a completely air conditioned fleet, and retrofitting these cars with air conditioning either would have made them too heavy or there wasn't enough room for the A/C equipment.
--Mark
Good point. I forgot all about that.
Yes that's true, but some of them COULD have been retrofitted and used exclusively on the "E" line. At the time, that was the only line completely underground. Had that happened, the R-32's could have been delegated to other lines.
Why is air conditioning only needed underground? With a rush-hour crowd of people generating lots of body heat, A/C is often needed for most of at least two seasons worth of calendar time, above or below ground.
Retrofitting the R27 or R30 represents a waste of money that was better spent on new rolling stock and fixing R32s. I'm glad the MTA didn't do it (the equivalent of flushing dollar bills down a toilet, and then paying extra to fix the stopped up toilet!)
I consider buying all-new R-142's and 160's flushing money down the toilet. Those R-27/30's still had alot of life left in them, and those that could have been retrofitted should have been. They would have been too heavy for the els with A/C, that's why they could only run underground after that point.
"Those R-27/30's still had alot of life left in them, and those that could have been retrofitted should have been."
How many would you need for your own museum?
Let's look at the Fishbowl way of living:
-R27 instead of R142 (who cares about disabled people- they're trash anyway)
-Driving cars requiring leaded gasoline (who cares about pollution)?
-Using washing machines which run off a gasoline engine (blue smoke is good for you)
-Using heavy metals to treat infections instead of antibiotics because the metals have a lot of life left in them
-Using rotary phones instead of push-button phones because the former have too much life left in them, and anything involving computers is evil
-Insisting on flying a DC-3 instead of a 777 on a cross-country trip.
-Retrofitting your office with the most modern telegraph you can find.
Look Ron, why do you bash my way of life? I don't see a need to spend money frivolously. No, I do not use rotary-dial phones, gasoline powered washing machines, or fly a DC-3 (I don't fly at all since Sept. 11th and FYI the airplanes on most commercial airlines are more outdated than the subway cars currently being replaced). Sadly, you've fallen into the mindset of the majority of our throw-away society. You're mentality is get rid of something just because it gets old. I'm not exactly the horn of plenty and don't believe in spending money foolishly. I'm a firm believer in making do with what you have. The MTA has ALWAYS wasted money.
"Look Ron, why do you bash my way of life?"
I don't bash it. But you would force the rest of us to live it.
I think it's pretty much a dead issue, you're gonna get your way anyhow. The MTA is set on ordering new cars. I watched the Low-V's being replaced by R-26/R-36's on the IRT. Now the Redbirds are being replaced. And I know with the modifications they're doing now, even the Transit Museum isn't gonna be the same. I just hope they don't louse it up too much.
Ya, know the one thing that simply amazes me about you? You rail on and on about how (in past posts) the Japenese suck, yet, you still use a computer. You and sallam would make a wonderful pair.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are we TROLLING again? I hope not....statements like the previous alway seem to start fights.So lets nip it in the bud before one gets going....anyway. the 27/30 were retired too early for my tastes,but you must addmit they were the ''doggs'' of the B Division. Of course the TA bagged them way before time,and should have them replaced with new rolling stock [and I'm not talking about the 68/68a]in the 1990's.From what I 've come to understand ,the MTA had a plan in the works some time ago to buy X amount of rail cars[100-200] every year or so until all the old stock was gone.Can any one else can comfirm this?
It's my understanding that the R32's to R46's and a good part of the fleet of R10, R16, R27, R30 all were a part of the B division's fleet at the same time. Then they scrapped the R10's thru R30's and replaced them with the R68's. How big is the R68 order compared to the amount of R10 thru R30. Granted the 68's are bigger cars, but even accounting for that, there must have been a major drop in trains when they got rid of all those cars, and just got new R68's.
In a post I made awhile ago,I made the same the same statement.The TA replaced over 1000 cars with 625[not including ones that were lost to wrecks or other reasons].That added up to what we have going on today..a car shortage. Granted,the R10/16/27/30 and 30a's were ''at their prime or past it'',but if replacements were ordered,ALONG WITH RETIREMENT,thing would be much different now,insted of playing ''catch up''.
In a post I made awhile ago,I made the same statement.The TA replaced over 1000 cars with 625[not including ones that were lost to wrecks or other reasons].That added up to what we have going on today..a car shortage. Granted,the R10/16/27/30 and 30a's were ''at their prime or past it'',but if replacements were ordered,ALONG WITH RETIREMENT,thing would be much different now,insted of playing ''catch up''.
Ridership was on the decline when the R-30s were retired. The Metrocard had not yet been introduced, and no one thought ridership levels would pick up to where they are now.
Thats where the ''SYSTEM'' lacks vision!!! A farecard system was in the works,during the first 5 year Capitol improvement program[1980-81] They planed for that,why couldn't they have had the forsight to see,after the new subways were opened,and the system became ''nice to ride''would new ridership come out of the thin air?
The MTA is set on ordering new cars. I watched the Low-V's being replaced by R-26/R-36's on the IRT. Now the Redbirds are being replaced. And I know with the modifications they're doing now, even the Transit Museum isn't gonna be the same. I just hope they don't louse it up too much.
Well, the truth is the MTA has to order new cars. It's practical to do so. It's time.
I do agree with your thoughts on the museum though. I liked the fact that the museum really did have that old station feel. I hope it still does when they reopen it. Hey - i was even upset when they got ris of the light grey color on the columns and painted them red, which made it look too much like an in use station. The old grey color looked more nostalgic. I too hope they don't mess it up too much.
I bet they'll have flourecent lights instead of the ol' school lightbulbs.
That would really ruin it - nothing nostalgic about that!
But you can do something about that.
I never said all that equipment should disappear. The Coney Island Yard has the room to save and restore important examples of each. Not every one can be on display at Hoyt-Schermerhorn at one time, but they can be rotated. They are an important part of NYC history, after all.
You restore vintage cars, correct? Can you offer your services, gratis, a few hours a month or so to the Museum, to rescue, maintain and restore old subway cars?
The fact is, the TA would even give you a subway car if you arranged and paid for a way to get it off TA property.
Can you organize some of your friends to do that?
They told me at M.S.B.A. I could save 1970 Flxible #434 if I could just get ten people together who would take an interest in restoring it. When the people I asked found out it would still be owned by M.S.B.A., they wanted no part of it. I've learned Transit preservation is something you must do on your own or not at all. That's why I currently own a 1968 Fishbowl and a 1978 Flxible.
You had a good attitude about it - shame on those other selfish folks!
Congrats on your two acquisitions, though. Is the 1978 model a "Darth Vader" bus?
"Darth Vader" bus?
Yeah, the big, black boxy bus that Flexble came out with when it was a unit of Grumman Corp. In NY, the buses had trouble - like cracked A-frames, and engines falling out into the street.
I guess your bus is the older "ersatz - Fishbowl" (a more angular front that resembles the Fishbowl). I rode those a lot in Los Angeles. I didn't know they were still building them in 1978.
I think (and I could be wrong)that the New Look Flxibles were produced through sometime in 1978, and the "Darth Vader" buses (aka Grumman Flxible 870s) started production later that year.
That is 100% correct. I was fortunate enough to get one of the last Flxible "NewLooks" to be produced, production ceased in April 1978, and Metro production under the guise of Grumman began the following year. Amazingly, M.S.B.A. got 18 years out of those buses.
I thought "New Look" was a trademark of General Motors and applied to the Fishbowl. Am I wrong?
"New Look" is a generic term referring to both GM and Flxible styles. GM initially released the New Look in 1959, and by 1961, Flxible had their version. For some reason, the Flxible was always much heaver than the GM, and the last of them (the '78's) were better because of their Selec-Trac transmissions. Of course, I know this is a topic for BusTalk, but I felt it was not unimportant to note.
There's nothing wrong with mentioning buses here. What the hell, isn't the PCC a bus with steel tires? :0)
What the hell, isn't the PCC a bus with steel tires? :0)
Its the other way around - the bus is a PCC with rubber tires ;-)
That's a good one!
And the Paris and Montreal subway things with rubber tyres are not trains, they are underground trolley buses (8-) !
Rim shot!
That didn't sound like a joke.
Not quite. They do have steel wheels on the adjacent to the tires.
One more time.
Not quite. They do have steel wheels adjacent to the tires.
Flyer was building buses in Canada at the same time that resembled Fishbowls as well, both bodies for electric buses and diesels as well, for example:
-Robert King
Wow, except for the roof section and destination sign, it bears an uncanny resemblance to a Fishbowl. Looks more like a Fishbowl than even the Flx New Look.
It's less angular, so it resembles the GM model more than the Flxible...
I know, it's remarkable isn't it? I think, based on my memories of those buses, that they stood taller than the fishbowls and had a more open and cleanly designed interior. This is beside the point, but they also had damn comfortable seats and they were fast and very smooth running compared to diesel buses. Obviously I miss the electric buses...
What I'd like find are some pictures in the Lansdowne yard of one of those Flyers standing next to one of the Edmonton BBC electric buses the TTC leased, which were GM fishbowl bodies kitted out with solid state electrical equipment, to do a side by side comparison of the two - the real fishbowl vs. Flyer's interpretation of it.
-Robert King
i liked the R30 in redbird color,if only the R30 was still here,i,d
be all over that car.
til next time
Weight is a factor on underground lines as well. Heavier cars, rails wear out faster, and trucks need more maintenance.
Good points. Hadn't thought of that...
Why is air conditioning only needed underground? With a rush-hour crowd of people generating lots of body heat, A/C is often needed for most of at least two seasons worth of calendar time, above or below ground.
It has to do with weight on the Els, that is where the underground issue comes in. It has nothing to do with "only having AC underground" It's because the R27-30's could not run on the els if they had the AC added, banishing then to underground lines like the E. It makes it very impractical, in the case of reroutes, etc.
Thank you for that info. I actually saw that info in a different post after I posted my question.
Good point.
Ooops, I posted before I noticed you mentioned that already.
And the MTA wanted cars which would be better able to serve the disabled and graffitti resistant, which these weren't.
They were retired because the MTA wanted all of it's cars to be air-conditioned. If they had air conditioned the 27-30's, the units would have been too heavy for the els. That would have made them very impractible, as they would only be able to be used on the "all underground" lines. Which at that time was only the E line, as the R still went to Astoria, and the C still went to the Rockaways. And even if the R,C, and E were all underground, it's not good to have trains that can only be used on certain lines, and then you have to think of servicing also, they would have to travese the els for servicing.
As for the graffiti resistence, I don't think the current Redbirds were any different than the R27-30's, so I don;t think that was the reason they were scrapped, it has to do with the weight with AC added.
Good points. The R27 was no different than a Redbird minus A/C - but they're finally leaving, too, and would have sooner if not for lack of $$$.
I think this whole AC thing was silly anyway. Only 3 months of the eyar does AC come into play. A careful management of whatever SMS schedule other cars with AC would need at whatever shop the R30's were assigned to would have limited their summertime usage extensively.
Well, not really. Put 200 people in a subway car with no A/C, and you're going to have problems for a lot more than just the summer.
That's why there are windows to open. AC didn't exist for the first 60 years of the subway's history, and A/C as a regular feature is something known only to this generation.
Open windows are not terribly effective underground in those conditions. Neither are ceiling fans.
Hmmm, I dunno ... the D-Types seemed relatively comfortable with open windows and ceiling fans. Problem is that modern equipment today has very small windows that could open, whereas older equipment had larger windows.
--Mark
They worked well enough for 3 decades.
That's a matter of opinion.
A broader problem in keeping the R27s cool was that they used an unsuccessful ventilation system.
Earlier equipment had used the train's motion to bring generally cooler tunnel air into the car through clerestory vents and decent sized windows, with circulation provided by large ceiling fans. The result was not as good as A/C, but was at least bearable except under the very worst conditions.
Most of the Redbird equipment (including the R27s) drew air into an enclosed plenum and forced it into the car through high velocity Aixflow fans. On virtually all accounts this was less comfortable than prior systems.
When most of the fleet became air conditioned this made the tunnels warmer, compounding the mysery for those on non-AC equipment.
no... in 1993 when the R30s were retired, the R went to continental(since 1987) and the c had just started to run to euclid only. the smith El could probably hold the heavier cars, so the g could run them too. they could easily have been A/c'd and sent to jamaica for the E,G, and R
Hmmm, I didn't realize the R was already on Queens Blvd then. But any way, there still is a problem with the all underground lines and the extra weight:
See Here
You would have thought the BMT lines would have suffered more from track wear, given the BMT standards and Triplexes were heavier than anything else.
R trains may still have been running to Astoria, but the N was running to Queens Blvd at the time. Besides, the R27-30 could still run on the Sea Beach and Brighton Lines because they ran on embankments and open cuts with the exception of the steel el from Neptune to Stillwell on Brighton and the short structure crossing Neptune Ave after the Coney Island Creek Bridge. I can understand not running them on Eastern Division trains but the IND which is mostly underground could have used these cars instead of buying the R68 units which I hear suffer some car body structure problems. But as a kid back then, all the LAHT subway cars were a canvas to me, I didn't care for them back then as much as I do now. For old times sake, I bought 3 R21's and 3 R17's a few years ago. I painted one of each in MTA silver and blue, current redbird color scheme, and the all white scheme with black gates and belt rail. As a former graffiti artist, I couldn't resist. The white cars and the MTA scheme cars are all covered in graffiti. They now sit in a glass case in my wall unit and all my friends want to buy my graffiti cars off of me. Sorry, no sale. Besides, anyone know where I can purchase R16 and R27-30 models. My bro-in-law and I decided to build an HO Scale layout of either East New York or Canarsie Yards. Any info will be appreciated.
Bklyn.
32 years is not early retirement (except to rabid railbuffs). The car builders were no longer in business, new rolling stock was coming and the MTA could not afford to continue to maintain a large fleet of carbon-steel cars with old motors. And the MTA wanted cars which would be better able to serve the disabled and graffitti resistant, which these weren't. They were retired because it was appropriate to retire them.
32 years is early retirement. Their design (planned-obsolesence) life was 35 years, and for most equipment that has been a minimum. Three years early retirement is a loss of at least 10% of the car's economic life.
Seeing that NYC is probably the richest city in the world that habitually cries poverty, early retirement of capital equipment is a questionable practice, especially since the TA has a proven record of shifting operating costs to capital expenditures. If Enrom did it, it would be called "cooking the books." If fact WorldCom did do that (capitalized expenses) and it helped bring down the company.
So even if their is a good explanation for the R27's early retirement, the question is quite valid.
I wonder what the design life was for the Triplexes. They were retired/sent to slaughter way, way too soon.
I'm not sure that, in the era of the Triplexes, that they had design life in the sense that we do now. They certainly didn't have "planned obsolescence."
Still, they made 37-38 years service, and were retired to remove their maintenance base, rather than because of equipment issues. Their design and physical stability are demonstrated by the three museum Triplexes, still operable in a mainline environment (ironically) 37 years after their "retirement."
The wooden elevated cars are an interesting case. They could have had an indefinite theoretical design life, in that their structural members were renewed on a more or less regular basis, rather like a frame house, and their internal equipment could similarly be replaced in an economical fashion.
Still, the Dual Contracts called for the planned, phased, replacement of the BU fleet, most of which dates were exceeded by decades.
Don't forget the time period involved -- while the state of the subways was up in 1993 from the nadir of the late 70s and early 80s, the city as a whole was in rotten shape in 1993, with the murder rate up to about 2,000 per year and jobs leaving the city in the wake of the 1987 market collapse and 1990 recession. The MTA didn't think they would ever need those cars because they didn't think that subway ridership was going to go up the way it did over the ensuing decade.
So dump the R-27-30s and you can still handle the projected loads, plus you can sent out a nice press release to the media about finally achieving an all air-conditioned fleet for NYCTA (quick, hide those R-33WF behind the Corona barn...)
Under the old "Overhaul-Maintain-Overhaul" rule-of-thumb, all railroad cars should be completely overhauled for every twelve years on the road, and when they're ready for the third overhaul, they're scrapped.
Fact is that that most R27's never saw their 30th birthday (most were scrapped by 1989). Same thing with the R22's. Deferred maintenance has to be a mitigating factor, along with theor obsolescence. Both car types were not able to be overhauled with air-conditioning, something which is now considered an essential.
What new rolling stock was coming in in 1993?
The replacement for the R-27/30 is the R-143, which only started arriving last year.
Before the major general overhaul during the Gunn regime, there were lots of unusable cars in the yards. After GOH, you simply didn't need anywhere near the number of spares since the fleet came into a state of good repair, coupled to the fact of service cuts to to budget problems and flat ridership numbers. In the B divison, for example from 1980 till the day before the first R143 arrived, the TA retired 400 R10's, 200 R16's and 540 R27/30's. And lots of those R10's and R16's didn't see servcie for years. What has replaced them? 425 R68's and 200 R68A's. Factor in scrap 10 cars for 8 new ones. I really don't think it's a fair comparision to say that R143's are replacing R27/30's since car availability has improved so upwards in the last 15 years.
I guess you answered my question that I posted at the same time you posted this.
Adjusted for car length, how many cars were available on a typical day in 2001 before the first R-143 arrived, and how many cars were available on a typical day in 1993 before the first R-27/30 was retired?
R27/30 were retired in 1991.
The R27/30's were retired over a 5 year period from 1988 to 1993. The first to go were the unrebuilt R27's. The last to go were the 100+ R30A's in the spring of 93'
They were not air conditioned.
Brrrrrrrrrrrr
That's the sound of a person waiting at Broadway Myrtle in the 1990's in the middle of a January cold snap for a J train to come. That person's wait might have been shorter had more cars been available to add more J service. Those R30's were toasty warm in the winter.
Those R30's were toasty warm in the winter.
And if you had a shopping bag near the heat vents under the seats they would melt!
I ask this question every year or so. You'll get many answers. One person explained it like this:
At some point, the TA wanted all rolling stock to be equipped with A/C. This meant that A/C would have to be added to many cars, including the R-27's, R-30's, and their cousins in the IRT(R26, R28, R29, R33, R36's). As has been suggested, the TA was concerned that the added weight of an A/C to already heavy cars would be too much for elevated structures to withstand, so they just got rid of the trains. But if you do the math, I'll bet an 8 car consist of R 27/30's with A/C would weigh no more than a 10 car consist of R 33/36 equipment with A/C's. And that's the formula you'd have to use assuming the 27/30's could've stayed on the M and J lines while the A division cars would've had to run in 10 car consists.
By the time the R-27/30 scrapping began, many if not all of the IRT cars were air conditioned.
I just found out some more info on these cars.
They were scrapped young because their MDBF was below system standards, and the TA felt that they had enough cars to get by without them. They used many R 27/30 parts as part of the "organ donor" program, to keep other cars rolling.
Their controllers were transplanted into the WF R-36s.
Yesterday passing by Unionport Yard saw R142 #6801-#6805 & #7055-#7051 on Track #37.
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
They'll start road testing those shortly for 5 service, if they haven't done so already. Another nail in the coffin of the Redbirds.
-Stef
Stef, why does each trainset have to be tested before entering service? I thought that was only done when a new class of cars were being introduced, and to get a feel of the quality of the product being delivered from a manufacturer.
They want to make sure the bugs (glitches) get worked out before the trainset enters service.
-Stef
When someone says that the V train is at 49% capacity, does that mean that 49% of the seats are taken up, or that the amount of people in the train is 49% of what the train can legally handle? Also someone said that the E was once at 103% capacity. How can a train possibly run at 103% capacity? Does the train get wider as people fill in?
"100% capacity" is NYCT's definition of the maximum number of people they feel can tolerably be squeezed into a train. Very full but not quite sardine can level. Maybe someone has an official definition.
Very full but not quite sardine can level.
So I guess the LExington Line is running at 125% capacity - sardine level......
When someone says that the V train is at 49% capacity, does that mean that 49% of the seats are taken up, or that the amount of people in the train is 49% of what the train can legally handle?
There are 3 capacity figures. The first is the seating capacity which is the number of passengers that are supposed to be able to be seated. The second is the "service level" capacity. This is the number of passengers that the car can carry without passengers touching one another and with reasonably easy access to the doors. This is the level referred to for the 49%. (This is usually calculated by the area of the car and alloting a certain figure for each passenger.) The third capacity is the crush load capacity which is the maximum number of people that can possibly fit into the car. (This is usually caclulated by taking the floor space excluding the seats and dividing it by a smaller figure than used for the service level capacity and adding the number of seated passengers.)
We used to experiment VW beatles or phone booths when I was in college. The press ridiculed these exercises as being of no practical use.)
How can a train possibly run at 103% capacity? Does the train get wider as people fill in?
The people get compressed. Ever open a sardine can? :-)
Does anybody know if M-7's will be testing Friday on the Main Line?
If yes, about what time are they leaving Penn Station or from Jamaica?
The best place to see it, at least this week, is the babylon branch, on the south shore, around 12 - 1:30 pm every afternoon.It reaches Merrick a bit after 1pm, so get there at 12:45 and wait a few minutes. It's normally proceeded by a revenue train by a few minutes. BTW, if the late train announcements suddenly start reporting some train running 20 minutes early, that's a good hint the thing's on the line.
I want to know what people here think of the City's proposal to use Tax Increment Financing (TIF) to finance the construction of the 7 line to the far west side. The Independent Budget Office has published a report about it available on their web site (www.ibo.nyc.ny.us). The principal danger I see is that the rise in assesments could not be enough to cover the costs of the construction, which they estimate to be $1.5 billion. Should this occcur, it seems that the City will be forced to 'cough up' the difference. Without having won the Olympic bid, is it wise to make such a big bet about future development in the area?
"Should this occcur, it seems that the City will be forced to 'cough up' the difference. Without having won the Olympic bid, is it wise to make such a big bet about future development in the area? "
Yes, because development potential does not really depend on the Olympics. Don't mix up Olympics with development - the two are independent and not mutual. Development would help the Olympic bid, and its timing would be accelerated due to n Olymnpic bid, but the fact that it would or would not get done per se is not Olympic dependent.
The reason for pushing the 7 is not the Olympics - it's to be able to expand Javits and bring in hotels and other businesses to the area, as well as develop more and better housing.
Hey, Ron you support the extension right?
I need help. would you mind listing reasons with evidence advocating the extension. i'm losing a debate on another forum...;-)
1) Essential part of economic development of the Far West Side.
2) Can't expand Jacob Javits Center without it. No Javits expansion = lost convention business
3) Provides essential west of midtown subway service which has been missing. Eighth Av is too far to walk.
4) Cost-effective because it ties in very well to rest of subway system (goes to Times Square and GCT on the way to Queens).
5. Does not take away from possible sources of financing (NYS Transportation Bonds, federal transportation funds) for other transportation initiatives such as the 2nd Ave subway. Therefore is not an "either or" issue. This doesn't justify doing it but negates the argument that the 7 extension will kill the SAS.
6. By virtue of the rail connections, midtown Manhttan is easily accessible to a vast labor pool, making it a very desirable place to locate new businesses, despite the high costs. Unfortunately, all the good locations are already filled up, and this advantage (which translates into tax dollars for NYC) is becoming hard to expand. By making the far west side easily accessible, the useful area of midtown as a whole is expanded, allowing for more tax revenue.
Nicely put.
good, but the poster's say that the sas will remedy all that...? and that the 7 extension is a waste of money.
The SAS can't possibly increase development and tax revenues in far west midtown. It doesn't go there.
(The principal danger I see is that the rise in assesments could not be enough to cover the costs of the construction, which they estimate to be $1.5 billion. Should this occcur, it seems that the City will be forced to 'cough up' the difference. Without having won the Olympic bid, is it wise to make such a big bet about future development in the area?)
I think it is a good bet. Remember, the City would be better off without the Olympics, since the site otherwise occupied by the stadium would be occupied by taxpaying properties. The plan also calls for taxpaying properties to finance the stadium as well.
(The SAS can't possibly increase development and tax revenues in far west midtown. It doesn't go there. )
This reminds me of an even better plan from the city governments point of view. Upzone the Far West Side. Promise to build the Flushing Line Extension. Do studies, plans, even some construction. Have the private sector build offices, hotels, and high income residences, and tax the hell out of them. Then never build the extension, leaving the occupants of those buildings with long walks to overcrowded subways while paying the highest taxes in the nation.
It worked on Second Avenue. That's why you can't use tax increment financig to finance the Second Avenue Subway -- we already grabbed the tax increment while not building the subway.
This reminds me of an even better plan from the city governments point of view. Upzone the Far West Side. Promise to build the Flushing Line Extension. Do studies, plans, even some construction. Have the private sector build offices, hotels, and high income residences, and tax the hell out of them. Then never build the extension, leaving the occupants of those buildings with long walks to overcrowded subways while paying the highest taxes in the nation.
I'd say the businesses are too wise to fall for that ploy.
We used the money instead to pay for repairs to existing infrastructure - but it was inadequate for that too, and done piecemeal, with no coordination.
(We used the money instead to pay for repairs to existing infrastructure - but it was inadequate for that too, and done piecemeal, with no coordination.)
Dont' believe that blarney. If money promised for Second Avenue was used to repair the existing infrastructure, it's because other money that SHOULD have been used to repair the existing infrastructure was spent elsewhere. Borrowing up to the limit for ongoing normal replacement -- or even worse for operating expenses -- means no capacity to borrow for improvments. It was done in the 1950s. It was done in the early 1990s. Now those SOBs have done it again.
It's not blarney. It's true, and it's true in part because of the reasons you state.
They made a good decision Larry (though you don't understand that), but it was a good decision after several bad ones.
(They made a good decision Larry (though you don't understand that), but it was a good decision after several bad ones.)
If they make another good decision to cancel the Second Avenue Subway, as the Mayor has all but announced, remember all the bad ones that led up to it. Yes, we COULD HAVE afforded it, even without another $20 billion in federal funds, which we are unlikely to get. The plan is to not build it and blame Washington. The blame, if that happens, should go elsewhere.
If money promised for Second Avenue was used to repair the existing infrastructure, it's because other money that SHOULD have been used to repair the existing infrastructure was spent elsewhere. Borrowing up to the limit for ongoing normal replacement -- or even worse for operating expenses -- means no capacity to borrow for improvments. It was done in the 1950s. It was done in the early 1990s. Now those SOBs have done it again.
Yet the ovine voting behavoir of New York voters mean that the politicians need not fear the consequences of these shenanigans. Will Pataki, who after all effectively controls the MTA, have to worry about re-election this November? Probably not, as his recent game of kissy-face with Dennis Rivera would, given New York's political climate, be enough to get Osama bin Laden elected Governor.
Thanks for all of the help, insight and info.
Just one more question, please?
The posters I'm talking to claim that the 7 Extension will suck out needed money for the SAS. Any truth in that claim?
Thanks again.
"The posters I'm talking to claim that the 7 Extension will suck out needed money for the SAS. Any truth in that claim?"
Not in theory. The 7 extension will be financed exclusively by tax revenues resulting from increased development on the far west side. The SAS will be financed by federal money and state bond issues. IF the city has to kick in money to the SAS because the feds and state don't produce enough, and IF the far west side development isn't up to expectations, then conceivably the city could say, sorry we can't kick in money for the SAS because we've taken a bath on the 7.
So, IF the 7 extension is based imprudent projections of far west side development, there could be a problem.
All this talk about extending the Flushing Line . Why don't they extend the Canarsie line too and let both trains terminate at the same place.
Perhaps extending the Canarsie line isn't as easy or isn't high priority right now.
Also note that there is no construction money for the Flushing line Extension in the Capital Plan. So no real work (starting with an EIS) could be done until 2005 unless a special appropriation happened.
In contrast, the LGA Extension has something like $600 million (I could be wrong on the figure) already sequestered in the city budget.
(In contrast, the LGA Extension has something like $600 million (I could be wrong on the figure) already sequestered in the city budget.)
As I recall from City Planning days, the figure is more like $700 million. Of course, the money could always be taken back and used for other priorities, like the Flushing Extension. With the change of administrations, no one is really focused on the N train to LaGuardia anymore. The MTA wants to keep Second Avenue alive, do LIRR to GCT, and keep the seizure of the subway at bay. The Mayor wants the Flushing Line extension, using tax increment financing -- it's part of the Olympic dream. The Governor, Legislature and City Council want to screw the future to reward their supporters in the present.
Morever, domestic travelers have "discovered" the additional capacity at JFK, and with Airtrain imminent that's where the focus is.
That sounds about right.
Morever, domestic travelers have "discovered" the additional capacity at JFK, and with Airtrain imminent that's where the focus is.
Not quite as imminent as it was just a few hours ago.
I mentioned the Olympics as a way to hedge a huge bet. If they know the Olympics are coming, developers are much more likely to by into the whole redevelopment scheme. As you say, the project is viable without the Olympics, but having the games makes the rapid rise in real estate values that much more certain.
Not really. I agree that the Olympics would help, but repeated experience shows the subway can often spur development all by itself.
The Olympics can help the subway; they can't hurt it.
I mentioned the Olympics as a way to hedge a huge bet. If they know the Olympics are coming, developers are much more likely to by into the whole redevelopment scheme. As you say, the project is viable without the Olympics, but having the games makes the rapid rise in real estate values that much more certain.
It's possible that the Olympics will bring more commercial development to the far West Side, but somehow I doubt it. For all the hoopla, the Olympics come and go in the space of a couple weeks, which doesn't seem like something that will spur real estate development - which is, after all, practically the very definition of long-term.
I'd rather see a major expansion of the Javits Center. The existing facility is just too small for today's mega-conventions, and unless it is significantly enlarged New York will continue to lose business to other cities.
"I'd rather see a major expansion of the Javits Center. The existing facility is just too small for today's mega-conventions, and unless it is significantly enlarged New York will continue to lose business to other cities. "
The cost of doing buiness at Javits is too high for the giant conventions. The extortion of the past is gone, but the above-board fees charged now are too much for a giant expo that needs many trucks to deliver stuff. The state and city had better be very careful before they make a big investment in the expanding the convention center.
New York has a milder version of the Philly disease -but the major problem at Javits is size, not management.
Still, it would be wise to make Javits as friendly as possible to conventions.
The cost of unloading equipment at Javits is way higher than in Las Vegas. This is just the high cost of doing business in NYC. The mega shows are just not going to come here.
There's a rail yard right next door. Why do things have to be delivered by truck?
"There's a rail yard right next door. Why do things have to be delivered by truck?"
They still have to go the last 200 yards by truck.
The TIF concept is a lot older than the report indicates. The concept is borrowing money beyond the City's constitutional debt limit, based on the assumption that property values will increase because of the improvement brought about by the bond issue. This is the same method used by Robert Moses to finance the Belt and Interborough Parkways in the 1930's.
Use of TIF for the 7 extension is perhaps a bit riskier than usual because the city has no real past performance to serve as a guide. The risk factor would be lower if the city could look at recent subway extensions and see whether development, and therefore higher tax revenues, had followed in their wake. Unfortunately, that's not possible for the simple reason that New York has had no significant subway extensions in over a half-century. Using the experiences of other cities might help, but it's not quite the same as New York data would be.
I have 2 things to say
1. Shouldn't the MTA and New York City wait until New York actually gets the olympic bid?
2. Isn't it Ironic something on the drawing board for only 5 years is being built while something else we all need is being overshadowed? Is this beurocracy at work?
I refer you to my previous post. The Olympics and the subway are NOT interdependent. In the long run, Javits and other businesses are far more important to the health of the city. The Olympics is window dressing for which a 7 extension will be convenient, if ready in time.
It was a an experience ,I didnt see the need for cops to be wearing their Riot helmets we were there in peace. I thought More people were going to attend but The time and day is rough for most.My question is why do we rally infront of an empty building?Most people left early not to be bothered by the rally.
I think MTA had the riot police there at Livingston Street hoping "something" would happen so that the media would report Union members getting rowdy. Anything to build up their side and discredit the Union.
I think MTA had the riot police there at Livingston Street hoping "something" would happen so that the media would report Union members getting rowdy. Anything to build up their side and discredit the Union.
I think MTA had the riot police there at Livingston Street hoping "something" would happen so that the media would report Union members getting rowdy. Anything to build up their side and discredit the Union.
Well the police has to be prepared for anything. You never know if some little thing stirs up. Even if you seem 'peaceful'.
Serious Personal Protection Equipment worn by NYPD in disgrace at Grand Central demonstration...not one Car Inspector carried a shoe paddle. CI Peter
>>> Serious Personal Protection Equipment worn by NYPD in disgrace at Grand Central demonstration <<<
It does seem unusual unless the city is trying to intimidate the union. Normal procedure call for light deployment of normally dressed police at the rally site, with troops in riot gear out of sight a block or two away.
Tom
I want to study to take the Motorman's exam next May or whenever it is. Is there a book I can get that has the pool of questions? If so, where can I get a copy?
I am wondering the same thing! Please help, anyone that knows the answer! -Nick
89 Worth Street. There's a place called the civil service workshop.
IF any such book does exist when transit has been using oral/practical testing, the 'Passbook' may come from:
National Learning Corperation
212 Michael Drive
Syosset, New York 11791
516 921 8888 1 800 645 6637 Fax 516 921 8743
www.passbooks.com
I never had a real job interview...who I am, what I know, what I know about TA subway signals and railcar control systems or why I want this new work. You get the book...it is multiple questions and answers WITHOUT explanations, reverse engineer the questions into answers and make 3 X 5 file cards. You drill yourself to death and find websites with tekky stuff to learn from...maybe you e-mail me with some questions and I'll try to give you URLs to search. Chances are that IF you speak English fluently and your vision plain or corrected is accepted, you are IN without any personal interview. If you do get the personal interview, best to go with 'TA work is excellent work and a decent career' and you always had a interest in working for the system because trainsets were a hobby. TA needs bodies capable of work...the tough part is starting from the bottom of the seniority list on crappy runs/hours/rdo. Nick: I'll bug the crap out of you to make the effort!! Crew member has a friend working for Bombardier that was accepted for Car Inspector and dropped out after the first day of CI school. Dummy ass blew the best and easiest job of his lifetime.
Transit Authority work is excellent work...opportunities abound for everyone who has a little patience.
In the hole, IN THE HOLE. Speak English. I love my job. CI Peter
I have the book, I ordered it for my TO test. It was COMPLETELY useless.
...at least that's what this week's New York Observer article claims.
Considering the story says the plan has the backing of Moynihan, Pataki, Bush, Schumer and both Clintons, you'd think this would be over and done with. But since they're dealing with the most impenetrable object known to man -- the United States Postal Service buracracy -- don't make any plans to be heading out on Amtrak from the west side of Eighth Ave. any time soon.
The longer it takes, the better as far as I'm concerned. It's an extra block further from everything, which is a big price to pay for the privilege of walking into a building with a majestic facade rather than a building with no reediming architectural value whatsoever.
With NJT having its 7th Ave concourse, there also won't be so much crowding in the current Amtrak concourse.
If you poke on their website, you can get a .pdf brochure on the car, and on the testing schedule. So far, it's supposed to be testing this october in NJ. And get this: They think they're gonna test it on the LIRR next year. Which, I don't see how, given the LIRR has zero low platforms left anywhere. They also list 'NY City' as a proposed testing site. They claim a 51 inch floor height, which is NY area standard. But where in NY City you could test a DMU, given there's really not much diesel trackage in NY? *shrug* The total lack of stainless construction would mean zero orders in the NY area, anyway. Coil springs and beyond acient truck technology is a big zero too.
The initial acelleration is listed at 3.3mph/s (decent, but it falls off fast), but the braking is a horrid 1.5mph/s! The M-1, in contrast, is capable of twice that, as is the current LIRR diesel fleet!
Weight for a unpowered trailer is 50% more than a comet car, for a powered DMU/cab, over 150,000 lbs! Seating is a limp 98 passengers per car - less than even the M-7. The 13' 7" foot height is slightly less than the NJ arrow, and thus it could clear the NEC's catenary. It could concieveably go to a high level platform. The low level trailer design is limp.
In any case - it's no bargain. Pricing for the unpowered cars exceeds 1.5 milliion, the DMU power cars are nearly 3 million a piece!
Here's what it needs to be a viable choice:
Sub 125,000 lb weight on power cars.
Sub 100,000 lb weight on trailers.
All stainless construction.
Airbag suspension.
Fabricated truck design.
MUCH better braking. 3.0mph/s service, 3.5mph/s emergency.
Electric doors - none of this pneumatic crap. Ever been on a train with pneumatic doors? They never work right. They always get stuck, hang up, don't open, don't close, or just plain not work.
Automagic parking brake.
Lower cost. It's very pricey, even for the unpowered cars.
Better styling - it's ugly (IMHO)
In short, they need to take another pass at the design - it's stuck in the 50's. Most of what they have to fix shouldn't be hard, though. The big problem, though, is obsolete trucks / suspension, obnoxious weight, and lack of stainless steel.
They brag Metra uses the same truck. Who cares? Metra's hardly an example of modern technology, or for that matter, practical commuter rail (and having been on Metra, they're slow as sh*t!). This isn't 1950, it's 2003. Today, fabricated, air bag suspension, and low maintenance is what sells.
For a first stab at a DMU, it isn't horrid, but as a practical railcar? It needs a bit of work.
What is the CRC DMU and what website are you referring to?
Cleanairbus
Colorado Railcar Manufacturing, producer of railroad cars and the prototype diesel multiple-unit car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you for the response, though the cars there look kinda too old-fashioned and a bit too ugly and impractical for the modern commuter railroads...idk, it's just me...
Cleanairbus
"Metra's hardly an example of modern technology, or for that matter, practical commuter rail (and having been on Metra, they're slow as sh*t!)."
I agree with you about that DMU car, but in defense of Metra their express trains make pretty good time. It's the locals that are pokey. Also, last I checked Metra had 96% on-time performance, which isn't too shabby (especially considering all the operating hurdles they have to jump). On the other hand, those center-door gallery cars are awfully slow when it comes to loading. Cars with quarter-point doors would be better. And, I still think that a high-speed third rail electric line to the Fox Valley would be a good idea. :-)
Frank Hicks
I agree the unpowered car price is a tad high, but consider the price of a powered car against a diesel loco...
It's realy sad that an american firm can't come up with a car design to compete with the out-of-towners.
How bout something nearly all composite, utilizing as little Metal as possible, running with either a ceramic material rotary diesel or gas turbine derived engine capable of both DMU/GEMU and EMU schemes offering every LIRR rider a one seat ride into NYP.
I can hear the scoffing already, but I am being totally serious, such a thing is, from a materials point of view, not to distant. I have only been in Drexel for just shy of 2 weeks, and yet I have seen some truely amazing things that the Materials Engineering department is cooking up:
-Ceramic materials that can be machined, have all the heat resistance of their more common brethren, and yet have none of the thermal shock problems that plague other Ceramic materials. This would make ceramic, cooling system-less engines a reality, since ceramics do not lose their shape with greater heat, as metals do. Infact, one sample (I think it was Titanium, Bismouth and Polonium) they showed my class actually got stronger with higher heat.
-Composite materials that are cheaper, stronger, lighter, and more durable than the best steel that USX ever rolled out, one grad student was working to replace the steel rebar in buildings with a kevlar and Glass fiber (Kevlar is pricy[$25/lb], but Glass is cheap[>$2/lb]) which would be lighter and stronger than the rebar currently in buildings. Also there were indications that this would work some how better in an earthquake than a steel rebarred building, but missed part of that explanation and will defer to other more knowlegable Architect and or Structural/Civil engineers.
There is more, in the areas of Nanotech, Polymers and Biomaterials and so on, but they don't really have any application to railroads. My point is that new stuff is really just over the horizon, stuff that will change the processes of building railcars just as surely as the transition from wood to steel did over a hundred years ago. Give it time and somebody must eventually come around to the idea of using modern technology in a DMU, and I also belive that the FRA will wise up someday, so who knows.
I know, your eyebrows raised on that headline! But seriously, while obviously there have been lots of disappointment with this order of trains, I have to wonder where the mess-ups began in the first place. It is true that the prototypes were delivered over 4 years ago. But lets look at the MTA, the R110s arrived 8-9 years before the R142s and R143. The only difference is that Breda's prototypes are going to be updated to the "real thing."
With that said, it also makes me wonder if Breda's trains ever had the derailing problems when they were testing them out of revenue service, usually between 1 and 5 in the morning. Why did it take several months (and now years) of taking the trains in and out of service due to one derailing problem after another?
I'm not sure who is to blame more in this situation. Obviously the whole thing is a huge headache, and the taxpayers money is being put to waste until these trains finally hit the rails. Did Breda knowingly make a crappy car, or was the MBTA wrong to accept some of the cars when they did? Also, is the state of Massachusetts wrong to have a law that forces the MBTA to go with the lowest bidder? Sometimes I think the MBTA got what they paid for.
I can only hope that there is a resolution to these problems soon. The Boeing-Vertol LRV's were overhauled in 1996 so they could run through 1999, and now they have been running another three years. Some of these cars have already been retired, and I fear that will be the case for more of them in the near future; which could make the car shortage on the Green Line more devastating than it already is. -Nick
History repeat itself. Boeing's LRV didnot work well in Boston and the rest were added to the Muni order. Do I see a trend?
But didn't MUNI's Boeing-Vertol LRVs not work there either? If that's the case, then, in that case, it was Boeing's fault, which we all probably know by now...
Cleanairbus
>>I can only hope that there is a resolution to these problems soon.<<
You're damn right is a resolution ! Have MBTA take Breda to court and sue them. Then when the judge rules in favor of MBTA and a court order forces Breda to reef all Type 8's, Breda has to build Type 9's from the blueprints of PCC's to replace the Type 8's.
Sometimes when you have to look forward, you need to look back !
Bill "Newkirk"
or Force Breda to buy MBTA Kinki's which work and are useful to those needing low floors. It may be that the current low floor Knki's at HBLR and San Jose may be the PCC's of this decade.
As I've said before, Kinki-Sharyo should have gotten the order in the first place. Especially since they are trying to modify the Type 7s to work with the 8s. -Nick
For immediate release:
September 26, 2002
Large crowds expected in the Metrorail system this weekend
Bicycles will be prohibited in the system from September 27-29
Bicycles and large coolers will not be permitted on Metrorail on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, September 27th, 28th, and 29th, because large crowds are expected to be using the system. These restrictions are in place because demonstrators will be in town to protest the International Monetary Fund/World Bank meetings this weekend.
These same restrictions are in place on July 4th when large crowds use Metrorail to get to holiday festivities.
Starting tomorrow and throughout the weekend, Metro Transit Police will be on duty in uniform or in plain clothes to quickly remedy any potential problem areas. Uniformed Metro Transit police and rail personnel will wear bright high-visibility vests so they will be easy for customers to spot. Additionally, Metro officials will establish a special operations command center to monitor the system from a central location.
Customers using Metrobus and Metrorail during the days of the demonstrations are reminded of the following:
• Customers should build extra time into their travel plans in case of delays.
• If possible, avoid traveling during the peak hours of 7:30 to 8:30 a.m. and 5 to 6 p.m.
• Customers should continue to be vigilant in keeping their eyes and ears open for unusual or suspicious behavior and report it immediately. Customers can do so by notifying any uniformed Metro employee; calling Metro Transit Police at 202-962-2121 or 911; or using the emergency call boxes inside Metrorail trains, garages, and on station platforms.
• To encourage visitors to downtown Washington and to use Metrorail to get into and out of the city, Metro officials will try to accommodate as many automobiles in Metro-owned and operated parking lots.
• In case of demonstration-related delays, please be patient and courteous; listen for train and station announcements and messages on the electronic boards in rail stations.
I hope the demonstrators at least use Metrorail and Metrobus a lot and help it meet operating costs...
Unfortunately a small fringe subset of World Bank protestors likes to damage property, so it doesn't look likely to be an economic gain for DC.
View article at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/26/international/europe/26BRIT.html?tntemail1.
Ouch! Very bad.
Not the first time this summer I hear either.
Notice this was a not at the start of the day! The rush was over but there were still riders out in number.
While I am not for a strike I did ask why the TWU never struck in the middle of the day when people are sort of stuck. TO create a short horrible sort of strike that would not last long. The room turned pale.
(1) The 24-hour strike was announced in advance as beimg 8 p.m. to 8 p.m. It means that rush-hour travellers *do* get home the first night. In practice the management do not try to run a service after 8 p.m. the second night, so it becomes more like a 28-hour strike.
(2) Although it is serious, bear in mind that London has a much more extensive commuter rail network than New York does, so that the major impact is on travel within central London (including to and from rail termini) rather than stranding people completely. (Admittedly there are some suburbs with tube only and no commuter rail nearby.) For example, my daughter uses commuter rail instead of the tube on strike days, but then has a 45-minute walk from Victoria terminus to her workplace.
(3) Just for comparison with a recent thread here about NYCT motormen's salaries: the strikers are seeking a salary of about 30,000 pounds, which management and press in the UK think is exorbitant. That's about $45,000, and cost of living in London is comparable to New York.
Cost of living is hard to compare. I found a drink at a bar to be cheaper over there but heaven forbid I wanted to eat a banana.
All I remember is Saturday night last minute dash trying to beat the systems closing. And people peeing all over the place instead of risking missing that last train.
8pm is a nice strike but trains were likely out of place. Here by midnight 90% of the layups are secured normally and if there was a strike they could lay up the rest before the deadline.
"Cost of living is hard to compare. I found a drink at a bar to be cheaper over there but heaven forbid I wanted to eat a banana."
The key issue is cost of housing. London has a major problem recruiting all the service jobs (teachers, nurses, police, firefighters, bus/tube/train drivers, etc.) because high-paid private-sector employment, especially in the financial services sector, has driven up housing prices to levels where the vital service workers needed to keep London going cannot afford to live anywhere near London. I suspect NYC has the same problem.
"All I remember is Saturday night last minute dash trying to beat the systems closing. And people peeing all over the place instead of risking missing that last train"
It would be nice to have the tube running all night! There are allnight buses, however. It would be nice to have station toilets too.
"8pm is a nice strike but trains were likely out of place. Here by midnight 90% of the layups are secured normally and if there was a strike they could lay up the rest before the deadline."
I think the union is trying to cause maximum inconvenience to the management rather than the public - so the idea is to *deliberately* cause the trains to be laid up in the wrong places. I'm guessing that the reason the management doesn't restart service at 8 p.m. on the second day is they use that time to get the trains back to their proper places before the next day's 5 a.m. startup.
Well most of the new employees that I know live in NYC in the C/R title where it takes four years to reach full pay. Many in Canarsie, East NY and Flatbush/Bushwick. A few live in necer areas but where there a long time before they got gentrified. I guess that is like being an East Ender before they put that cult er TV program on.
Many do move out if they want to buy a house. About a quarter of the new Open Competitive TO live outside of NYC but almost all of them have lived in NYC at some point in their lives. You can still buy a cheapo house for the cost of what you pay for a rental if you leave NYC and are not too picky.
I believe T.O.'s earn a basic £31,000 already.
Simon
Swindon UK
And this just in time to coincide with the new London driving fee.
The Committee voted against giving Amtrak the requested $1.2 billion that was already passed by the Senate, deciding to allow amtrak $762 million. The vote was 35-25, along party lines (that means 25 Democrats voted for $1.2 billion and 35 Republicans voted for $762 million).
NARP news website
Wow ... proof of the need for "regime change" here at home. November is only 6 weeks away, folks ...
This is what my Republican Rep wrote back to me just yesterday:
Thank you for letting me know of your strong support for Amtrak. I
greatly appreciate you taking the time to contact me.
Passenger rail service has an important role in today's America,
especially in light of the terrorist attacks on our great nation on
September 11, 2001. I appreciate having your insight on this important
matter. As a member of the House Appropriations Committee, which has
jurisdiction over funding of the U.S. Department of Transportation and
Amtrak, I will remember your strong support for passenger rail service
should pertinent legislation come to the House floor for consideration.
Again, thanks for taking the time to contact me. I hope you will
continue to keep me informed of your views on matters of importance.
Sincerely,
Don Sherwood
Member of Congress
>>> I will remember your strong support for passenger rail service should pertinent legislation come to the House floor for consideration <<<
A great non-committal wishy-washy politician's response.
Tom
True, but it makes it all the more important that his constituent wrote to him. Had this representative received no correspondence or very little correspondence, he could reasonably conclude that he could vote "no" without angering or disappointing constituents. And every member of Congress has staff who keep a running tally on how many calls, letters, faxes are pro/con various issues.
Writing your Congressman (or woman) is always a good idea.
My wife used to work in Washington for her U.S. Senator answering phones (she was young - one of her 1st jobs). She only kept a 'yea or nea' tally when there was a particuarly important vote coming up, and the legislative aides did ask for the general leaning, but no specific comments were ever recorded by her. That would be impractical. Most people who did called in read statements, or little-altered variations of them, prepared by various lobbying groups, a la "Senator will have to pry mah gun outta mah cold, dead hand." It got to be so predictable during a given vote that she and her partner would mute the phone and talk about Seinfeld and where to get a good burrito. It's not her fault. She was not empowered to speak for the senator, and could only say, "Thank you. I'll express your concerns to the Senator." And she did keep the tally. The other point is that most of the calls were to oppose the senator's stated position on an issue, and these calls would sometimes become disrespectful. My wife was permitted to hang up if the person used profanity or insulted her directly.
It's really better to write, although your representative likely won't see your letter. An L.A. will definitely read it, though, and most Senators with any amount of integrity do keep track of their constituents' positions. After all, the ones who call and write are the ones who are most likely to vote.
But let's face it. You're not going to get Trent Lott to all of a sudden decide that he really does want women to be able to choose to terminate their own pregnancies, no matter how many letters you write him.
There are times when a legislator has no strong feelings one way or the other about an issue, or he really can't decide. If he's serious about public service, he will look to his constituents for guidance. For example, you may be a Republican congressman from western PA who is against unionism in general, but may alter this principle when it comes to the steel workers or coal miners. These unions likely would have contributed a substantial amount to getting him elected (even though they no have to channel the $$ more creatively due to McCain-Feingold). However, if the issue really doesn't grab him, he may also yield to the party leadership's line. Frankly, I think this is most often why votes go the way they do.
Columbus Day weekend, October 12 and 13. Speculation was that it would be cancelled, since only one steam engine is operating. However, details have been released by the EBT. There will be two trains with fixed consists, the passenger train pulled by 1912 Baldwin #14 and the picnic train pulled by GE 50-tonner M-7, which will each make several runs per day. 1927 Brill/EBT gas-electric M-1 will make two trips each day.
As usual, the Rockhill Trolley Museum will run numerous trips with many different cars each day and into the night.
Hello everyone, My name is John and Im an assistant Conductor for the RR on Septa. If anyone has any questions about the system, feel free to ask me. I do have a few things to say about the RR division of Septa. Ridership has gone up tremondously over the past few years. I guess because everyone is tired of driving. Headways still suck. The best service you will find I guess will be the R1 Airport trains, which run every 30 mins almost all day. Paoli service is really good to. Unfortunately the equipm,ent is getting pretty bad. Especially the Silverliner 2'3's. Thats really because of lack of maintenence. The Budds still give a good smooth ride. Top speed on the Budds and Louies are 85 and the GE's are 95. Well supposedly . Hehe. Starting in November the RR will be shut down on weekends between 30th Street and Suburban Station for track and wire work. I think i heard it will last for 22 weeks? When I find out more I will let you know. Also Im sure most of you know the Silverliner 5's are going to be ordered. I have seen drawing and the look almost like an LIRR Metropolitan car.The R6 extension to Reading from what I heard is really going to happen, its just a matter of money. No its not going to be subway like as someone posted in another thread. It will be all high level platforms and be a thru run from CC to Reading.Geez, Im tired, if anyone thinks of something , feel free to ask. Also as you can tell im a railfan and I work the R7 Trenton line with my 1st trip out of Trenton at 3:45, and an airport trip from Suburban Sttion at 5:30 and I leave the airport shoot straight up to Glenside at 6:09. I leave Glenside at 7:27 to go to Suburban Station. I leave SS to do a RT to Marcus Hook at 8:33 and I work my going home train to Trenton which leaves SS at 11:49.If you want a ride come out on any of those trains.
Take Care
John
What are the salaries like for CR and TO? General benefits, working conditions?
I guess that is not what you meant by questions.
John, thanks for the detailed input.
3 of us from NYC were in your neck of the woods in July & did all the colors (green, blue, orange, white, etc.). We had a great time over a two day week-end & returned still friends, though a bit tired.
Thanks, John.
The R8 to Chestnut Hill West is among the best lines in the system (30 minute frequency) - I'd like to see 30 minute frequencies to Fox Chase too.
Hello, and thanks for that insight!
I know that the regional rail won't be converted into a subway/el system, but would it be possible or practical to at least mimic a rapid-transit type service by significantly increasing service (like a frequency of every 10-15-20 minutes or so?)
Thanks
Well...... Now he is the cause for a bulletin..... (I am sure you all know who HE is)
It states in part:
Recently, a person identified himself to a train service employee as the official photographer of a news agency and was given permission by this employee to enter his operating cab and video tape the route of the line.
Train Operators and Conductors are reminded that persons (employees and non-employees) must not ride in their operating cabs. This practice negatively impacts customer confidence and MUST STOP IMMEDIATELY.
It goes on to describe rule 11 (j) which is the rule against people being in cabs.
It then states:
All Train Operators and Conductors MUST strictly adhere to the above directive. Noncompliance will be considered a serious breach of standard operating procedure and result in disciplinary action.
Train Service Supervisors will monitor this directive for strict compliance.
Classic. Really funny stuff. But a similar bulletin was issued a few months back when a probationary A div T/O got busted with his girlfriend in his cab after he overran 59th Street. Just like they tell us in school car, the A divsion is the "Mickey Mouse Railroad".
I gave studiously not dealt with the whole story to this poin, but the issue of 'management' attempting to "shaming" workers while on duty in public areas demands comment.
In my business when I have a beef with workers, I walk us out of the building to the street where we can talk out of the hearing of the customer.
As to the industry common practice of 'extra' persons in either the C/T pr T/O vabs, we all have seen this occur over the years. Sometimes it is 'business' sometimes just camaraderie. Clearly, either can be distracting. Its no different from talking on your cellphone while driving, you cannot be as focused on your task when your attention is divided.
>>> Recently, a person identified himself to a train service employee as the official photographer of a news agency and was given permission by this employee to enter his operating cab and video tape the route of the line <<<
I hope this is an indication that the TA is looking at the incident as one in which the T/O was tricked into allowing someone in the cab rather than a total disregard of the rules. This could result in less severe discipline.
Tom
In the 2 years of my being here, and probably for as long as I am here in the MTA, I don't think I will ever know how having employees riding in your cab impacts on customer confidence in the MTA!! I mean non-employees I can understand, but fellow employees...C'MON, MTA RELAX!! I mean if employees are not allowed to ride in operating cabs while engaged in the operation of a train, why is it that T.S.S.'s (Train Service Supervisors) can come in whenever they want (unless I am completely stupid they ARE employees who are riding in cabs), and be more of a distraction to an operating employee (I, on more than one occasion, had to, and AM NOT afraid at any time, let a T.S.S. know about his/her distraction of me from my duties) than any other employee who rides in the cab. I mean don't the MTA "brains" think that a T.S.S. coming on a train, quizzing a conductor in front of the riding public, sometimes seeming like he/she is trying to set out to make the conductor look incompetent in front of the people, makes for people having not-so-highly confident thoughts about the MTA (I mean I had T.S.S.'s try their best to stump me with questions, in full view of the public WITH ALL EYES ON ME LITERALLY, only to have them fail to do so when I answer them correctly, and later on having those same customers tell me that the supervisor seems like he/she doesn't know what they're talking about!!), and while the conductor is supposed to be concentrating on his duties with UNDIVIDED attention, is a distraction from duty?? I think so, and I think this bulletin should apply to T.S.S.'s too!! Do the quizzes at the end terminals or before the start of the trip, and give rule reminders before or after a trip, not while the crew is trying to concentrate on their duties. They should have to stay out the cabs too, and not barge in whenever they want, sometimes surprising crew members very unexpectedly!! That's a breach of operating procedure in my book....entering a cab whenever you want and being a distractive influence on a crew member!!
Valid arguments there. That's how the railroad USED to operate. Sure "control" would get you on the radio and read you the riot act if you were screwing up the railroad (assuming the radio worked which they rarely did in my day) or you'd be "met" at the end of your run and invited to a "sit down lunch" in the bay window to explain yourself. :)
But in the old days, they'd just simmer and wait for you to "get home" and then grab you by the ear and lead you in for a little "discussion" and that was it ... but they didn't do it to you on the road ...
I remember a TSS trying to embarass me on an uptown 2 train in the Bx. Most of the passengers in the car just looked at him like the asshole that he was and as these pax were exiting the train, they congratulated me on a good job that I was doing. Of course this TSS got his, because he had to respond to a track fire down btwn 3Av and Jackson Av. Thats what he get for working a double shift. :)
Oh dont forget TSS hat,All he cared about was if C/R were wearing the right hat?Couldnt care less what we were doing just made sure we wore the rite hat.Passengers would stare at him as if he were nuts LOL
this is not the history i wanted ..... (I am sure you all know who HE is) ???
omg no !!
so the rat patrol will be out in full force looking fo victims !
Haven't you caused enough trouble ?
Why not just be quite for a while !
It is almost like hearing Cornholio.
??
Ask you son.
I need some t.p. for my bunghole. heh heh
what are you talking about? i rode with a motorman back in 2000 on
the #6 caused no trouble
what does ."Why not just be quite for a while !" supposed to suggest?
your meanness leaves a lot 2 be desired !
[What does "Why not just be quite for a while !" supposed to suggest?
Your meanness leaves a lot 2 be desired !]
It's pritty sad if I have to draw you a picture for you to get it.
Please do us all a favor & just drop the subject.
There is nothing to be gained fighting over whether or not YOU feel you didn't do anything wrong. Lets just let the issue go away.
In 2000 you weren't caught. In 2002 you were. Admit you got yourself and a train operator in trouble. Everybody else in here thinks so.
"Admit you got yourself and a train operator in trouble. Everybody else in here thinks so."
Obviously he got "caught", but in reading between the lines of your post, I get the feeling you are implying "everybody else" thinks he was wrong in what he did. If I misunderstood the meaning of your message, I apologize. I for one, and from reading the other responses more than few other people, feel he didn't do anything wrong. OK, he may have been in technical violation of a rule; but one thing we need to remember; the punishment should fit the crime. If you forget to put a quarter in the parking meter, you get a moderate fine if caught, not 6 months on Rikers. Salaam is a very talented photographer and he is employed by a transit agency. The TO showed him a curtosy because of that. Technically that was wrong, but as I said in a previous post, all that was called for was to ask Salaam to leave the cab and the TSS could have taken a moment to remind the TO that he (the TO) used poor judgement in allowing Salaam in the cab. If the TO has a good record, I certainly feel this incident deserves no discipline. One other thing to consider, had some bureaucrat wanted to impress a friend of his (or a fellow bureaucrat he knew from another transit agency) who wanted to take some video (as Salaam did), you can bet that person would be allowed to shoot until his lens fell off.
Salaam is a very talented photographer and he is employed by a transit agency.
Bill, I'll agree with the first part of your statement, but the second part is false. Salaam has CLAIMED to be a lot of things, including an employee of Los Angeles MTA, but his story doesn't check out. As noted elsewhere in this thread, he is NOT so employed, and when confronted with that he responded "so what?" (see post 389291). Like most of the posters on this board, I have very little regard for someone who feels that personal integrity is less important than their ego.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You make a good point.
IF Salaam in fact does not work for a transit agency (maybe he does some contract work for them, like possibly shoot PR pictures under contract to the LAMTA or a firm who does PR for the LAMTA?) AND he represented to the TO/TSS or police that he did; I concur that he is more at fault than I initially believed him to be. I not convinced that both of those things did happen (though I'm not 100% sure they did not). Misrepresenting material facts is not a minor matter (also, in this case it is not a MAJOR one either). I also will admit that I very much admire Salaam's work. My respect for his work plus having gotten to "know" him from this board and having met him on the MOD trip effects my feeling toward this incident. A think most people who have spent any amount of time on the board would almost consider Salaam a kind of celebrity. What I'm trying to say is that that I feel (from my knowledge of Salaam) I can say with a degree of confidence that I know he was not up to anything sinister. That plus the fact I like the guy tends to want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I still think this entire incident was overblown, but Salaam was in the wrong if he misrepresented himself.
... I can say with a degree of confidence that I know he was not up to anything sinister.
Depends on your definition of sinister, I suppose... from the perspective of other railfans who may have had their legitimate opportunities denied in the future because of his actions, I'm not sure I can agree. If your definition is more along the lines of "he's not planning to blow up the railroad" I'm sure you are correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I WAS defining sinister as "blowing up the railroad" (or in more general terms actually hurting anyone), I'm glad we agree that that was the furtherst thing from Salaam's mind. But I don't see how the Salaam incident could deny "LEGITIMATE opportunities" to other railfans. Legitimate opportunities are just that, LEGITIMATE and should go on as before. Railfans who may themselves look to push the envelope may indeed be denied opportunities to push the envelope. But if the consensus here is that Salaam was out of line, any other railfan who tries to do something out of the ordinary should be equally rebuked.
Experience has taught us that one irresponsible railfan can really mess things up for all the responsible ones out there. Years ago I had an opportunity to walk out on a pedestrian bridge over the Norfolk & Western hump yark in Roanoke, Virginia that was ostensibly for employees only simply by asking permission to do so, and I have some very nice photographs that I took from that vantage point. I was also invited into the control tower and permitted to photograph the model board and talk with a couple of the hump operators. Seven or eight years later I was back in Roanoke and presented myself at the tower, again asking permission to photograph from the same bridge, from the same operator (now Chief Yardmaster) that had invited me in before. That time I was denied permission - regretfully, on his part, because he knew from experience that I was a responsible person - because a foamer who had been invited into the tower on the same basis as I had been decided to push a button. Unfortunately, the button he pushed changed a signal from green to red as a train was approaching it, the engineer put the train BIE, and all hell broke loose. So railfans were now being escorted off the property if they declined to leave immediately on their own. (He was kind enough to meet me later that day, after he was off work, and point out a few good photo locations off railroad property that I would never have found on my own, and for that I thanked him profusely.)
All because of one bad apple in the barrel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A very relavent post Mouse, thanks for the input.
The present policy at the Transit Museum (locked storm doors, wooden railings at those locations where cars are coupled) stems from one incident in late 1995 or early 1996. All it takes is for one rotten apple to ruin the whole bunch.
Salaam and his staunch defenders just don't get it...
1. IT'S SAFETY, STUPID. Whether an accident occurred is irrelevant; something could have happened. The rules and laws that are being debated here exist to ensure everybody's continued safety.
2. True railfans should have enough respect for trains (AND for the people who operate and ride them) to do their railfanning safely. Deliberately distracting train operators is dangerous for everyone involved. Period. THAT's why there's a no-unauthorized-persons-in-the-cab rule. (Even I, as a manager with Transit, am NOT authorized to enter the cab, which is why I've never tried to.)
3. Train Service Supervisors, by the very nature of their jobs, ARE authorized to enter the cab. At the same time, the train operator is authorized (and, I feel, morally obligated) to point out when a TSS's presence is distracting, and should not be punished for doing so.
>>>3. Train Service Supervisors, by the very nature of their jobs, ARE authorized to enter the cab. At the same time, the train operator is authorized (and, I feel, morally obligated) to point out when a TSS's presence is distracting, and should not be punished for doing so.<<<
I told this one before but...
On one line in particular they were bugging me when I first hit the road . Finally I gave them a list of things not to do or places not to start quizzing me on procedures. The TSS turned and said if you were too scared to say something to me I'd be more worried about you and left.
Heh. It's actually sad ... back in my day, the "motor instructors" were the Godhead but the ATTITUDE was WAY different back then. Sure they could write you up and all, but the attitude that they presented when boarding your train was largely "are you OK? Are you sure of this line? Do you know about the timers up there and how to work them? Is there anything you NEED?" They were like having your TEACHER around to make sure that you were able to keep the railroad running rather than people you were supposed to FEAR ... that change in title to "TSS" seems to have changed the entire dynamic here ...
>>> that change in title to "TSS" seems to have changed the entire dynamic here <<<
The name change should not have caused the change. Any 1st line supervisor of a field work force (where the workers are necessarily out of direct contact with supervision most of the time) should consider himself a facilitator to help his workers do their jobs. This includes training and inspiring them to operate correctly on their own. After all, if his workers screw things up, it will be held against him, so he has to put his trust in them. A field supervisor who spends all his time looking for things his workers are doing wrong is a poorly trained supervisor. Most of his contacts with his workers should be a chance to give the worker an "attaboy" compliment.
Tom
Excellently argued. Indeed, his role is to remove obstacles keeping his workers from doing their jobs well.
The first question he should ask if there is a problem, is: "How can I help you deal with this issue better?" or "What do you need from me to look after this detail?"
The answer may well be more training, or more manpower, or somethging else. It could also be reassigning the employee to another job, or in worst case, dismissal, but the attitude about the latter two should be "this worker and the job are mismatched. If he/she is matched to a more suitable job, this can empower him/her to be outstanding."
Yep ... but sadly I have a feeling that it doesn't work that way any longer. Funny thing about civil service - as a supervisor (time card signers and such, SG-19 and up) you have to have a certain number of disciplinaries over an evaluation period or they start looking at YOU. Therefore it would seem that there's no inclination to have your people happy and keeping their noses clean or you might not get to do any valuable "writing up" ... it made me crazy ...
>>> as a supervisor (time card signers and such, SG-19 and up) you have to have a certain number of disciplinaries over an evaluation period or they start looking at YOU <<<
That's indicative of the upper managers managing by the numbers rather than taking the time to investigate what the numbers mean.
If the CEO of World Wide Widgets gets a report that consumers in every country but Brazil return products at a rate of 5% but those in Brazil return them at a rate of 0.001%, he should certainly investigate why that is, but not urge the Brazil manager to piss off consumers to get them in line with the rest of the world.
The classic example of this is police organizations which want so many "collars" without regard to whether the crime rate goes down or even if the arrests lead to convictions.
Tom
I probably overstated the reality there, but I was certainly lacking in the number of people I wrote up and that was brought to my attention a number of times that I was working outside of expectations and therefore was subject to review ... seems there's no reward in getting higher productivity out of your people and fewer people than other similar groups filing grievances. But yeah, in the world of civil service rocks DO float, it's the law. :)
I can vouch for that, in my days with the construction crews, I was told I must be too close to the union people because I didn't write up enough people. I will admit I didn't because I didn't come across many situations that merited it. I would not write up a man for doing his paperwork in the truck (after finishing the job) with the engine running (for the heater) on a 5 below zero day on the shore of the Hudson River or other such idiocy I know other supervisors did.
Yep ... but sadly I have a feeling that it doesn't work that way any longer. Funny thing about civil service - as a supervisor (time card signers and such, SG-19 and up) you have to have a certain number of disciplinaries over an evaluation period or they start looking at YOU. Therefore it would seem that there's no inclination to have your people happy and keeping their noses clean or you might not get to do any valuable "writing up" ... it made me crazy ...
I recall my boss telling me 15 years ago, in a private-sector job (not my present job), that a supervisor who gave a subordinate the lowest rating category on a periodic evaluation was not performing well as a supervisor, as he or she should have detected and solved the problems before they ever got to that stage. It doesn't look like the public sector shares in that wisdom.
No, unfortunately the public sector shares all the things that are bad about cloistered educrats like those at Dartmouth ... "bell curve grading," "Johnny can't fail," "statistical probabilities" and placing people in charge of things who bear NO expertise in the area. Accountants making engineering decisions, Lawyers evaluating accounting. I could go on and on but civil service rules by FORMULA and those who fall outside of the parameters of the expected formula results are subject to evaluation. It's the screwiest set of assumptions and functions I've ever witnessed in my life.
When I first went to work for the state, it was for the Cable Commission, an agency that was TRULY like the private sector and abhored the civil service mentality. We got things DONE. However, since the Cable Commission defied the formula and achieved results, it was killed. I then went to the Public Service Commission. Oh man, there was no place I'd ever seen that was dysfunctional and USELESS as that agency (though I've seen others like the Health Department and OGS that were FAR worse) ... but "Department of Public Service" was one phugging EYE OPENER as to institutionalized stupidity and avarice. Corrupt as all hell too. I *had* to get out of there, and did. Quickly.
And to add ... no, I never had anything less than a "very staisfactory" performance review in state service - the corruption of the Paturkey administration just wrenched my gut and I didn't want to be a part of it. Since leaving, I can sleep at night.
Tom,
I agree 100% with you. In my years of supervising utility construction crews, I always followed that model. In fact I often got jobs done on schedule when other supervisors who had years of experience as mechanics themselves (I didn't have any experience as a mechanic) could not. Why? I consulted with the crews to come up with reasonable time lines for a given job. I didn't try to impress my boss by attemting to get job done in two days if it required three or four to do correctly and safely. I also treated the men just as you described, asking what I could do to make the job go better, maybe that ment taking a run to the supply yard and bring a tool or need part to the location myself rather than wait for the delivery man to make it to them.
The bottom line is you need to develop respect in both directions, a supervisor must earn real respect from his crews. He is entitled to a certain degree of respect just from his title, but that only goes so far. The crew must be able to trust the supervisor just as much as the supervisor needs to trust the crew.
i said i was a permitted I.D. photographer LAMTA....etc...
with access to the entire system to photo / video anytimne i want !!
yes i have in cab riding too if i want without any problems
no i am not on the active payroll but future arrangements are being
made .. i am happy 2 have gone this far in the LAMTA system !!
1. A permit to photograph on the Los Angeles subway system is not good anywhere but Los Angeles. Salaam was in New York City, 3,000 miles away from where the permit is valid. Had a permit been required to take pictures in the New York City system, he would have had to get one -- the LA one would have been of absolutely no use or consequence.
2. I do not know whether LA's rules allow non-employees to ride in operating cabs, though I strongly doubt that they do. In any case, once again, that's Los Angeles and he was in New York.
3. He MIGHT be able to enjoy some professional courtesy as a fellow transit employee (IF HE WERE ONE, WHICH HE IS NOT), but only by contacting the agency involved and requesting permission to do things that are outside the normal realm -- not by "making friends with" an individual Train Operator. There's even a chance -- albeit a slight one -- that he could have gotten permission to be in an operating cab by writing to NYCT ahead of his visit and explaining what he wanted to do. He didn't. Instead, he got on this board months ago, asked about being in an operating cab, was told that it would not be allowed, and then came here and did it anyway and got caught.
David
Funny... When I was in Los Angeles, shortly after the Hollywood Boulevard segment of the Red Line opened, I stopped by the Hollywood/Vine station to take some photos. The Metro police (not LAPD) officer outside the entrance said that no permit was needed - just a valid ticket in the designated "paid" area - and that I should just go in and have fun taking pictures.
Maybe the rules have changed since then, or maybe the cop was wrong. Anyway, I acted in good faith by asking, and made sure to take my pictures without compromising safety. THAT is what's expected of any true railfan.
[... I for one, and from reading the other responses more than few other people, feel he didn't do anything wrong ...]
Now wait just one minute here,
He was waring a TA type vest, why was he doing that ?
He must have had some plan in mind when he put it on. Most of my railfan friends don't do that, because we don't work for the TA and we don't want anyone who does to missunderstand who we are. Even in street cloths on a train I've been asked if I'm TA. I am ALWAYS honest about being a railfan. It ends up much better for me & the operator, because if he want to give me a little treat he knows it's under his control, so he can say step back at any time & close the door. I was once took a photo of the Atlantic Ocean out the operators window while we were underway, BECAUSE I asked his permission first.
Second, why was he wareing the IDs that had no value in NYC ? Was he hoping no one would look too close ?
Many of us take photos at the front window without special vests of passes. I do understand that Salaam wanted to make the most of his limited time here, BUT the things he did to ensure that he could take advantage of every opportunity was WRONG.
Third, I'm afaid that the TA will do what they do best, over-react to this incident, which could have bad repercussions for the rest of us.
I enjoy riding the system just for fun. I try to keep in mind that it's a job for the Operator/Condutor & that the TA is very top heavy with management that loves to write you up. To be completely honest I bring my grandson, who also like to ride. This has given both of us & the friends who joined us many pleasent trips.
I can excuse some of the younger railfans amoung us for pushing the enevelope, but adults should be adult about this. In the same vain, some of my friends have said "oh why did you invite so in so, he's a foamer, etc.". To which I reply, he loves railfanning just as you & he just has a harder time containing his enthusiasum, so he's better off with us vs. by himself.
A) Do you really think he would not have tried the same thing at later time if they went easy on him. Considering he still seems to think he was right.
B) Do you think he was polite to the TSS? Considering how he initial talked about this incident and his use of the third person.
C) Do you think anyone on this board is sane. Considering how one individual has dominated discussion for the past 2-3 days.
You make some good points.
A) I do not believe Salaam would try to shoot from a cab at a later time if they went easy on him. I believe Salaam is sincere in his regret over having put the TO in jeopordy and he would not do that to another TO.
B) I do think he was polite (or at least respectful) to the TSS. I don't see how his using the third person to describe the incident has any bearing on that. I think he was truly shocked that what he did was casusing such an overblown reaction.
C) I will concede that point. This board can beat a dead horse beyond recognition.
The bottom line is I think this whole thing was blown out of all proportion. Salaam should not have been in the cab. He is a very enthusiastic rail fan, when the TO made the offer, he couldn't refuse (IF Salaam misrepresented who he was, I do not condone that). I do not feel he had any sinister plans with his vest and ID cards; no one has said any of those badges were not genuine. As I said, Salaam is very into railfanning, I view his outfit as kind of like the football fan who paints his face in the teams colors.
thankz again well said !
OK, but next time you're in NYC, DON'T ware that vest or ID.
We'll all thank you for that.
And like many have said you DO take very nice photos.
>>>C) Do you think anyone on this board is sane. <<<
LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
A- ....no ..that wa my last time on the #4
my plan as to go on to the #5 redbirds only
B- i was as polite to the "TSS" even asking him as nice a possible
to let this go and let us all move on
C- opinions are like the weather .....etc...........
my objection is to that we will no longer be able to
take pictures / video of any transit systems because of some
insane 911 excuse or something like that !!
( this discusion needs to be here many of us are photographers ) etc..
thankz salaamallah
First of all, who are you to determine what a technical rule violation is as compared with a major infraction? I think the people who run the system are in a far better position to make that call. Like it or not, there is a safety related component to this rule violation and there is a security component to this violation. You - who's only interest is that of a rail-fan do not get to vote on this matter. Salaam was warned by many here including myself that he could get into trouble or put others at risk. He chose to ignore the warnings.
In s subsequent post, salaam referred to another incident and sait it was because he was a balb black man that he was targetted. Perhaps it has nothing to do with being bald or black. Perhaps it has to do with him simply being an idiot who can't obey rules. I'm just not sure.
I was really trying to give Salaam the benefit doubt, and truly felt bad for his experience on the 4 train. But after the Long Beach post, I'm not so sure anymore. I'm starting to wonder myself now.
My posting was to Piggo-12
i met Mr.,"Piggo-12" he seemed 2 be allright with me !!
& i agreed with his political beliefs !!
seemed like a nice man 2 me train dude when i met him !!!
thankz Piggo-12 !!!
But after the Long Beach post, I'm not so sure anymore. I'm starting to wonder myself now.
On the 4 train there was clearly a basis for what occurred. However, I do not see where Salaam did anything wrong to warrant the treatment he received at Long Beach. Police who patrol the MTA properties seem to behave as if they never heard of railfans. I think sensitivity training is in order.
I only take photos from legally accessible locations, however if I encounter any problems the first call I am making is to the ACLU. I will not allow anyone to violate my rights to pursue my hobby from public property.
we all should be treated equal.....& left alone to take our train
photos ....then we agree to saw who is the best in this !!
!!!
Did you really identify yourself as "an official photographer for a news agency"? (Just wondering, not accusing. Don't get flamey on me!)
i am under attack again !
i am sorry for what happened, i think the post-
911 is going too far, did this back in 2000 on the
#6 without any problems at all!!
i am becoming depressed because of this whole
affair something i love is going away along with
the railfan window ...
did i rob a bank or rape, steal from someone??
maybe so !!
( sigh )............!
Salaam,
Relax, you didn't do anything really wrong. it's just that here in NYC there is still some post - Guilliai hangover going on. Rudy ruled with an iron boot and some people liked it. I think what you did was harmless, it is very unfortuate that all this trouble developed. I think the most that a reasonable supervisor should have done was to ask you to leave the cab, case closed, no harm no foul!
thanks guy ! glad 2 have met you on the museum ride !!
& i think you know i did not want any harm 2 come 2 anyone !!
the operator did not deserve to be diciplined in any way
i did not deserve a 4 1/2 hour de-breefing Q&A ...pre arrest!!
piggo i do not deserve to be attacked here !!
i did not vandal rob rape kill steal etc...
that supervisoe saw i was co-operating the rat squealed then hid his
coward ass ... he should have been forced 2 go to the TA police with
me and my wife who as not inside that transverse cab .....
again nice 2 have met you at the museum ride !! thankz salaamallah
Salaam, you are not being attacked here. The guys are just busting your chops. Relax. By the way, not that I'm into profiling at all and think its wrong, but lets face it, having a Muslim name probably had more to do with your detention than anything else.
(By the way, just a hint: NYC always settles on lawsuits!!! $$$$$$$)
thankz again sir !
i have a basis for a lawsuit here ?? ......??
when i told him i had a son in germany and in the army you should
have seen the look on that guys face
i was told all photography / video on the nyc subway system has been
completely and totlly BANNED forever !!!
and that a BIG crackdown is under way against this !!
you said :
"(By the way, just a hint: NYC always settles on lawsuits!!! $$$$$$$)" ?? on waht grounds would i have 4 this ??
just curious here !
thankz salaamallah
>>> when i told him i had a son in germany and in the army you should have seen the look on that guys face <<<
Kind of like when the FBI interviewed John Walker in 1985 and he told them his whole family were U.S. Navy men? :-)
Tom
you wrote:
on waht grounds would i have 4 this ??
None needed, just any greed you may have, and a lawyerat, equally or more so inclined.
IF you profit from this,I hope you are generous in regard to my fellow T/O, incase his 'totally appropiate' behavior results in days in the street, or fine in place of it. Not to mention the hassle while it's resolved. You knew you weren't allowed there, having expressed those sentiments on this board many times. You didn't get CAUGHT on the 6 last time, that's why there was no problem.
Note: This is not a personal attack, but just looking at this as a T/O working in an environment where things a lot less trivial than this can, and usually will, result in discipline.
(And any members of the legal profession reading this, I know you're intelligent enough to realize the above crack was aimed at those on the low end of your spectrum.)
>>i have a basis for a lawsuit here ?? ......??<<
You certainly do ! Just file a medical discrimination suit. Tell them you are under doctor's orders and cannot ride in any train because of unexpected vertigo and to prevent this, you must see out a railfan window to prevent the dizzies. The video tripod was there to steady your balance.
With the right lawyer, you should clear a few thousand dollars or so, enough to buy a Redbird, ship it to LA and have your own steel bungalow with a railfan window ! If you need a lawyer, call the Howard Stern show and get hooked up with Dominic Barbara. He'll give you a free consultation as soon as he puts down the meatball hero.
Bill "Newkirk"
Folks, let's do ourselves and Salaam a favor here and not dispense storefront/railfan window legal advice.
David
thankz again sir !
i have a basis for a lawsuit here ?? ......??
when i told him i had a son in germany and in the army you should
have seen the look on that guys face
i was told all photography / video on the nyc subway system has been
completely and totlly BANNED forever !!!
and that a BIG crackdown is under way against this !!
you said :
"(By the way, just a hint: NYC always settles on lawsuits!!! $$$$$$$)" ?? on what grounds would i have 4 this ??
just curious here !
thankz salaamallah
Salaam,
I sent you an email to the address on your handle. I gave you some information that may help you in this matter.
Piggo
"the operator did not deserve to be diciplined in any way"
WRONG!
TA rules state no train operator shall allow unauthorized personnal to ride in their cabs. The rule has been posted elsewhere on this site. If you want to argue with the rule, go ahead. But I'm sure you know that already.
"i did not deserve a 4 1/2 hour de-breefing Q&A ...pre arrest!!"
"i did not vandal rob rape kill steal etc..."
Somebody spots unauthorized persons in a cab on a moving train, what are they supposed to think? Another railfan from out of town? This city is on edge at the present time. People here are expecting something else to happen. No one knows what to expect. But the subway is a good place for something to happen. Set off a bomb on a train in midtown Manhattan during PM rush hour. It's possible! You'd be surprised what it's like when someone reports white powder on a bench. The line gets shut down until either the powder is carefully cleared up. Or it's been just another false alarm. The 3rd or 4th one today. Either way, until it has been cleared up customers have to wait. Some at stations. Others on trains between stations. And still others waiting outside stations. And maybe, just maybe someone thought you might be the one who'd do it. I'll admit it's farfetched. On the other hand, last year no one thought 2 jets would crash into a pair of tall buildings. So when police question you and your wife, they want to be sure you're not up to anything. They won't accept your word because you say so.
And to make you feel better, That train operator is in trouble himself. There was a un authorized person in the cab who is improperly trained in operating a train. and could be hindering the train operator from safely operating the train.
Again, I feel a need to put in my two cents. Why are so many people here so eager to condemn Salaam and so eager to support the TA management? Agencies like the MTA have a million and one rules and regulations. I admit, the majority are there for a reason; yet when dealing with so many rules and regulations management must use common sense. Minor infractions are overlooked everyday (I'm basing my comment on life in general, not the MTA specifically). Management exists to ensure the smooth and safe operation of the organization, not to see that every rule and regulation is enforced to the letter in every situation.
The tone of some of the posts I've read give me the feeling that some people here truly would be happy if Salaam was arrested and was at this moment taking video of cell block B. I had the pleasure of meeting Salaam on the March of Dimes trip. He is not some aggressive kid who was flagerently disregarding MTA rules to see what he could get away with. He is a mature adult (and an accomplshed photographer), I'm sure he treated everyone he dealt with the evening of the incident with the utmost respect and courtesy. The TSS was clearly correct in questioning what Salaam was doing in the cab, but again, the most the situation called for was asking him to leave the cab. Just because some people have come down with a severe case of paranoia post 9/11, doesn't justify instituting marshall law (though John Ashcroft and George W would like it). And a prior post may have hit the nail on the head, had Salaam been a white man named Sam Anderson, I have a feeling things may have handled a whole lot differently.
I would just like to go on record that I am not against SalaamAllah nor for TA management. I was simply asking a question about the incident. I would not "be happy" to see anyone arrested for railfanning, nor do I want to see a T/O punished disproportionately for what sounds like a harmless act, one which I would have enjoyed benefitting from myself.
Salaam is a middle-aged adult who was told on this board, on at least one occasion (December 2001 -- I looked it up), that people are not permitted to be in operating cabs without authorization. He then traveled 3,000 miles to go into an operating cab without authorization (a Train Operator is not allowed to give such authorization -- the T/O should have known better). The issue is not whether he was taking pictures -- that's completely legal without a permit as long as he wasn't using a tripod or lights and he was doing it for his own personal use (which I am inclined to believe he was). The issue is that he was somewhere he wasn't supposed to be. Anyone here who takes his side just doesn't get it, and anyone here who doesn't take his side isn't necessarily bringing personal feelings into it...they just know what the rules are and that he broke them.
As to the "million and one rules," I would like to know what is the specific objection "Piggo12" or anyone else here has to the rule prohibiting John Q. Public from riding in an operating cab.
David
I have no objection to the rule prohibiting non-TA employees in an operating cab, the rule makes sense and as I said, I have a high degree of confidence the vast majority of the rules are on the books for very good reasons.
The point I have been trying to make is that penalties for violating rule/laws/regulations etc. vary. They vary based on many factors, both objective and subjective; the severity of the infraction (both what law was violated and the nature of the facts surroinding the incident) and the damage/harm resulting to the victims (if there are any) are two of the more obvision variable. Other more subtle things such as your race, class, ability to afford a top notch defense attorney, prior record, and even who you know or are related to (just look at Florida, a tough law and order govenor's daughter is caught with crack cocaine while in a rehab facility, but after initially reporting the incident to the police, the staff at the rehab tear up all documents relating the incident and nothing comes of it) play major roles in determining what penalty will be imposed for violating rules/laws/regulations.
Now in this case, I see the following:
- There is no victim
- The rule in question is totally valid, we cannot have everyone with an interest in railfaning to enter an operating cab. However, I think is in the same class as regulations like turnstyle jumping more than in a class like assault or burglary. I believe turnstyle jumping is punished most often by a summons with a fine of about $60, in other cases (person cannot produce valid ID or has outstanding warrents or many priors) it can result in an arrest and the person being charged with an "A" misdimenor. I think that most times gets either "time served" if the person is a repeat offender or an ACD (Ajounment is Contemplation of Dismisal - don't get in trouble for 6 months and the matter will be dismissed). In fact I can make a pretty good arguement for this having been the optimal way to deal with this matter. Had Salaam been issued a summons by the police when they were summoned, the consequeses of the incident would have been assigned to him rather than the T/O. And Salaam would have had the right to contest the summons in front of a judge. I do not feel he deserved to be arrested or even detained.
- No harm resulted to anyone from Salaam being in that cab (I'm speaking of directly, I fully understand the T/O is facing severe disipline and I truly hope he is given ever benefit of the doubt in this matter). I concur that having civilians in the cab COULD result in harm to the riding public. And as such the rule is needed and needs to be enforced, but enforced appropriately.
- Salaam was not intending to enrich himself by stealing anything or take property from another.
- I will repeat a point a made earlier, had Salaam been a white man with a more Anglo sounding name or had he been buddies with a MTA bureaucrat, this whole thing would have been handled differently.
As to the concept of a million and one rules, as I said the are needed. I once worked for a large utility company as a construction supervisor. We had just as many rules, and as a supervisor I did that. But if a found my crew working without wearing a hard hat, I would tell them to put it on, and emphasis the hard hat is for their safety. When I explained the need for the rule, I very often had a problem with repeat offenders. I think by treating my subordinates with respect and explaining the need for the rules I was required to enforce made my job much easier and created a very positive work enviroment. No adult like to be told, "Due it because I'm the boss and I'm telling you to do it", that is how we treat young children. When dealing with adults, much better results are obtained by explaining the reason for the rules. Almost all rules have a valid reason for being on the books, when you explain the valid reason to the person you are dealing with, you get on going compliance. At least that has been my experience.
Whether the penalties vary is not the issue. The issue is that Salaam violated a rule after being told, on this board, nearly a year ago, by a NYCT manager who has identified himself as such many times, that what he wanted to do would be a violation.
It was in December 2001 -- look it up, as I did.
David
Yes, he violated a rule.
Having said that, I'd like to paraphrase a passage from the Bible. "He who is without sin should throw the first stone..."
In the course of a given day, I'd would not even venture a guess as to how many rules/laws ect. are violated (I wonder how many people who are condemning Salaam have ever taken a questionable deduction on their tax returns?). Those who are caught, pay a penalty; hopefully the penalty is in accord with the trangression. I get a feeling that there is some personal dislike for Salaam and I don't think it is justified. As he said, he did not kill or rape anyone. The truly sad part is the T/O is the one going to pay a price for this entire incident.
I guess the point here is that this is a railfan board and most of us take a great interest in subway matters, hence all the posts on this incident. In my view, Salaam's actions were not correct, but far from serious (had an accident occured while he was in the cab, it would have been a serious matter and I suspect he would have been arrested and be dealing with some heavy charges. Not unlike DWI, it is taken serious because doing it CAN have serious even deadly consequence, but if you are caught and no one is hurt you are punished in a prescribed manner, if you do injure or kill someone, the punishment is much more severe). I understand that reasonable people can see it differently. I agree that the major consequence of this is whatever action is taken against the T/O, I certainly hope they go easy on him. As I said above, minor violations occur daily, they deserve to be met with penalties that fit the "crime". As I said in a prior post, I think the most appropriate thing that could have happened was to have the police issue a summons to Salaam. He could have then mailed in the $60 or fought it in court in a fair and open hearing.
In an earlier message you wrote:
I was thinking, if that TO did get suspended, I would be the first one to make a contribuiton to make up the pay he lost. He was obviously a good guy and was not trying to do cause any trouble.
Does the offer still stand?
Yeah, from what I've heard from folks who know the CURRENT game plan, they're gonna *SHAFT* this poor bastard ... we may need to get together a SALAAM fund to pay their bills while "out of service." If we can find out WHO to send it to, and what they need, might serve as some "foamer penance" as a sign of solidarity to those who have been foamer victims that SOME of us actually CARE about the folks some of us routinely irritate! And for the rest of us who were "there" ourselves, wouldn't hurt to show we care either.
Either way, wouldn't matter ... we should ALL pay pennance for our various foamings ... any way you slice it ... we're ALL inthis together, no?
I'm down with that, bro...
Yes, my offer still stands! As Selkirk said, we all have been guilty of trangression of one sort or another. Anyone who has the info as to who to send to (and some way of varifying the fund is legit to help the T/O) I will make a contribution. Email me or post the info.
And Selkirt, Thanks for the support of the concept!
If TWU evenly REMOTELY cares, management has revealed a weak hand here as far as disciplinaries for this motorman go - that bulletin that they released was a CERTAIN sign that they recognized a lack of clarity in their existing directives at the time which required a clarifying bulletin to restate the rules and expectations.
A *good* union representative should be able to demonstrate that the "misconduct" in this situation was a simple lack of discretion rather than a flagrant violation of the rules (at least I *hope* I'm right in assuming this) and hopefully nothing more than a "letter in the file" will be the result of all this. Still, the poor bastard is wrenching his gut between then and now waiting to find out what's going to happen to him and that too is too much.
But I would expect that, by issuing that clarifying bulletin, the amount of disciplinary action taken THIS time is mitigated and that we will not have another "Salaam moment" in the cab again as a result. But yes, if a financial burden is placed on the motorman, I think at least those of us who have been naughty at some point or other should chip in for certain.
That bulletin was issued before Salaam got into town -- this was simply a reissue.
David
Bad timing though ya must admit with a disciplinary hanging ... at least that's the impression I get from it ... having sat through other people's disciplinaries in other state agencies, the timing would be a matter of contention at any hearing.
When a rule like that is broken the bulletin is reissued and evryone is "reminded" of said rule.
Well ... I'm the first to admit that wrongdoing occurred. BUT ... I'm also hoping that the worst of it will be a "letter" in his file and not days on the street or being SHOWN the street. There is a potential argument that since the bulletin described the specific situation (rather than a general restatement of the rule itself) that it could be taken as an admission of a lack of clarity. Many disciplinaries have had that argument reduce the heat in OTHER places ...
But I'd sure hate to see the guy fry ...
Well, is not 'discression the better part of valor?' I have walked up to the motormans cab and the door opened unannounced...T/O recognised 'the frequency of my keys' and the visual of my identification. I'm qualified as an observer and an inspector investigating a 'test train' BUT I simply said 'no thanks...consider me just a passenger.' Common sense does not abound. When I travel, I choose the center cars and make my presence known to the conductor in the event of an emergency. I like the respect I receive and make an effort to return respect. CI Peter
Well naturally I agree ... but at the same time, there are already enough people on railroads that despise "civilians" for tricks just like this event. My own hope is that the outcome is the operator is given a warning, hard lesson was already learned and also served as an example to the rest of us as to where the line is drawn.
I don't think anybody's going to get near a cab again as a result of this whole thing and hopefully some respect for the paranoia of others has also been learned. Sometimes a mere correction of behavior does the job, coming down hard would breed more resentment all around. The reason that I feel this way is that I could as easily have been that poor jamoke in the cab if I saw a vest in my face and was new at it. It'd probably be different if I didn't have something that had me thinking the person was "with the show" ...
In hindsight, there will be a challenge I'm sure. It's one thing to be shown the street if you have an accident or put the public actually *IN* harm's way ... I see this as an issue that needed to be corrected but not as severe as a "near miss" or hitting a signal.
In RTO there is such thing as a minor offense.
Here's hoping ...
As I said in a prior post, I think the most appropriate thing that could have happened was to have the police issue a summons to Salaam. He could have then mailed in the $60 or fought it in court in a fair and open hearing.
Except Salaam did nothing illegal. He did not enter the operating cab on his own accord without authorization. He was invited to enter by the T/O, in other words by a TA employee in charge of the "premises" in question. The fact that the T/O was not authorized to invite visitors to the cab is of no account, as far as any non-TA employee such as Salaam is concerned. Every uniformed employee is an official representative of the TA.
Except for one thing, which I keep bringing up but nobody seems to "hear:" In December 2001, Salaam got onto this board and asked about having a cab ride on a subway train in New York City. On this board he was told, by a NYCT manager, that he would not be permitted to ride in a cab on the NYC subway system. He did it anyway, he was caught, and now he wants sympathy. He's not getting any from me.
David
>>> Except Salaam did nothing illegal. He did not enter the operating cab on his own accord without authorization. He was invited to enter by the T/O, in other words by a TA employee in charge of the "premises" in question. <<<
With reasoning like that you get the jailhouse lawyer's award for creative fact stating. You paint a picture of Salaam standing there innocently minding his own business, and the T/O urging him to come into the cab out of a clear blue sky. Salaam knew he was not supposed to be in the cab, and purposely spoke to the T/O and convinced the T/O to allow him to enter. If you want to get fancy about it, he and the T/O entered into a conspiracy to have an unauthorized person in the cab.
By your reasoning the man who hands a bank teller a note saying "please put all the bills into an envelope and give it to me" and smiles at the teller is just panhandling or asking for a loan. Federal prisons are full of people who have done that and later claimed they used no force or fear of force and therefore were not guilty of robbery. (Robbery is defined as theft by force or fear of force.)
Tom
Except Salaam did nothing illegal. He did not enter the operating cab on his own accord without authorization. He was invited to enter by the T/O, in other words by a TA employee in charge of the "premises" in question.
With reasoning like that you get the jailhouse lawyer's award for creative fact stating. You paint a picture of Salaam standing there innocently minding his own business, and the T/O urging him to come into the cab out of a clear blue sky. Salaam knew he was not supposed to be in the cab, and purposely spoke to the T/O and convinced the T/O to allow him to enter. If you want to get fancy about it, he and the T/O entered into a conspiracy to have an unauthorized person in the cab.
The fact remains that the T/O, a TA employee, willingly allowed S.A. to enter the cab. Whether or not there was any persuasion is beside the point. The T/O did not have to let him in. The only way I could see that something illegal might have occurred is if S.A. falsely claimed to be a TA employee, which was not the case.
>>> The fact remains that the T/O, a TA employee, willingly allowed S.A. to enter the cab <<<
I just did a long post regarding this in response to Jeff Rosen and I do not feel like repeating the whole thing, but the gist of it is that if the T/O is not authorized to allow someone in the cab, the fact that he does allow someone in the cab (particularly someone who knows the T/O is not authorized to allow him in the cab) does not give any legitimacy to the unauthorized person being there.
Suppose you have a friend who is a parking lot attendant. Can you possibly believe it is OK for you to drive off in a new Mercedes to run some errands if he gives you the keys? Would you want to explain that to a cop if the owner of the car returned and reported the car stolen while you were driving it? After all, the owner of the car left it under the control of your friend. In the example of the subway, the owner (TA) left the train in the control of the T/O. The T/O was not authorized to lend the train to anyone else, or even allow anyone else in the cab. The fact that he does allow you in the cab, or drive the train, as occurred with Selkirk, does not make your actions legal.
Tom
Suppose you have a friend who is a parking lot attendant. Can you possibly believe it is OK for you to drive off in a new Mercedes to run some errands if he gives you the keys? Would you want to explain that to a cop if the owner of the car returned and reported the car stolen while you were driving it? After all, the owner of the car left it under the control of your friend. In the example of the subway, the owner (TA) left the train in the control of the T/O. The T/O was not authorized to lend the train to anyone else, or even allow anyone else in the cab. The fact that he does allow you in the cab, or drive the train, as occurred with Selkirk, does not make your actions legal.
Bad analogy. No one would reasonably expect that the parking lot attendant would have any kind of ownership rights in the Mercedes beyond temporary custody for a limited purpose. On the other hand, a person can reasonably expect that a T/O has the authority to let passengers into the operating cab (the fact that S.A. may have known that was not the case is beside the point, as it's a reasonable-person, objective standard that counts).
>>> Bad analogy. No one would reasonably expect that the parking lot attendant would have any kind of ownership rights <<<
OK, change the analogy. Suppose your friend worked at a car rental agency and allowed you to take a car for a vacation without any paperwork, would you feel comfortable telling a cop who stops you and asks for the registration that it's perfectly legal for you to be diving the car?
>>> a person can reasonably expect that a T/O has the authority to let passengers into the operating cab (the fact that S.A. may have known that was not the case is beside the point, as it's a reasonable-person, objective standard that counts). <<<
First of all, I do not buy the premise that a reasonable person would believe that a T/O has authority to allow passengers into a cab. In any case, haven't you ever heard the old saying that "ignorance of the law is no excuse?" A good faith belief that one had the right to be in the cab if invited in by the T/O might obviate the criminal intent, but that is something a judge would take into account when looking at penalties. A person with actual knowledge that what he is doing is wrong cannot hide behind the excuse that someone else might not have realized it was wrong.
Tom
Well, since I managed to get pulled into this one, I'd offer this. Criminal activity (and the LAW) still comes down to a little issue called "INTENT" ... in my own situation, I believe we had an apparent mistaken identity situation - the day prior I had been invited into a cab with some people that were with me while the train was NOT in motion and were lead out of the cab with it locked behind us as the train was about to depart. This earlier situation was apparently in keeping with the rules as they stand since at the time, the 143's were in testing and a lot of inspectors, TSS's, Kawasaki employees and others were routinely "checking out" the train in question.
How I managed to get the invite the next day is beyond me and I asked no questions and told no lies. Now that I know the situation (didn't at the time) if I ever find myself in a similar situation I'll make it a point to state quite clearly that I'm not with the show. I think where it came to pass was getting into a conversation about how awkward the controller was ... but somehow I got mistaken as one of the many people passing through the cab of the train under test at the time and it dawned on no one that I was out of place.
My apologies to all ...
>>> Well, since I managed to get pulled into this one, I'd offer this. Criminal activity (and the LAW) still comes down to a little issue called "INTENT" <<<
No one was really pointing fingers at you. If I got a chance to ride in a cab I would jump at it too.
Intent, legally stated as mens rea is necessary for most serious crimes, particularly those which include moral turpitude. Therefore the same act may be criminal or not depending on the intent of the actor. An example is a wife shooting and killing her husband. If she thought he was a burglar breaking into the house it is accidental and not a crime. If she knows who it is, and just wants to get rid of him, it's murder. Some crimes such as statutory rape are strict liability crimes, and it is no excuse that a defendant believed the girl was older than she really was.
More often than not minor offences not involving moral turpitude are treated as strict liability offenses where the intent of the actor is not taken into account. This is for two reasons; it is hard to prove intent, and the penalty is so small that it is not worth the judicial time to inquire into the intent. Therefore it is no excuse for speeding that you didn't realize your speed had crept over the limit, or for running a stop sign that you did not see the sign. Entering into restricted areas in the subway falls into the strict liability category.
Tom
"Some crimes such as statutory rape are strict liability crimes, and it is no excuse that a defendant believed the girl was older than she really was. "
Very true. I have wondered at times, about what would actually happen to a defendant such as this:
A man (who is of age) has consensual sex with a woman after they meet in a bar. She is a fully developed, curvaceous woman to whom the bartender has served an alcoholic beverage. She carries a driver license which is forged and misstates her date of birth. (Let's leave the bartender's liability out of this discussion for now). The man we're talking about has not been trained, nor does he work in a profession where training is required, to recognize a phony driver license.
It turns out that she is a minor. After the man takes her to his place and they have sex, the incident is reported somehow and he is arrested.
Could he mount a suuccessful defense?
>>> Could he mount a suuccessful defense? <<<
I don't know. Could O.J. Simpson mount a successful defense to his murder charge?
Actually prosecutors usually will not charge statutory rape in those cases, and many times juries will not convict. Instead something like contributing to the delinquency of a minor is charged so there is no child molester, sex offender registration tail put on the defendant.
BTW, I hope you (and everyone else) realize if you have one of the Traci Lords videos which were legally sold at one time, you could be convicted for the possession of child pornography.
Tom
Gee, suddenly diddling an underage subway car doesn't seem like such a bad thing. :)
"Actually prosecutors usually will not charge statutory rape in those cases, and many times juries will not convict. Instead something like contributing to the delinquency of a minor is charged so there is no child molester, sex offender registration tail put on the defendant."
A jury might not even go along with that some of the time...of course each case is different.
>>> A jury might not even go along with that some of the time...of course each case is different. <<<
Since the D.A. is an elected official he wants to have as high a conviction rate as possible come re-election time, and will shy away from cases that could be legally brought but have a high probability that they would be so unpopular that a jury would not convict.
Tom
True everywhere in the US.
Actually not true EVERYWHERE. In New Jersey (which I do admit is more a third world country than a part of the USA), the "DA's Office" is called the Prosecutor's Office and is an appointed position. Just as all the judges are appointed there.
BTW, I hope you (and everyone else) realize if you have one of the Traci Lords videos which were legally sold at one time, you could be convicted for the possession of child pornography.
Or a copy of the Oscar-winning American Beauty, which featured Thora Birch's 17-year-old ta-ta's.
Hi guy ... not to worry, didn't take your message the wrong way, just feeling a bit guilty about having given some justification for the "bulletin" being issued with my own situation. And since I didn't want to further inflame the passions on this issue, I did sorta sit by the sidelines in hopes of not making things worse with my own comments.
Your example of speeding or trespassing though is usually based on "signage" such as speed limit signs, no trespassing signs or "restricted area" signs which clearly state expected behavior in a particular place. If you choose to IGNORE them, then "ignorance of the law is no excuse" ... however "secret rule 11" isn't exactly something publicly posted or handed out on platforms with other leafleting and thus I would EXPECT that the standard of conduct for the public would be a bit lower than it would be for people who actally RECEIVE the rule scrolls if you can follow my reasoning here.
"No spitting" for example is clearly posted on signs, so is "persons shall not enter upon or cross the tracks" and so on. In the presence of such, clearly you're in trouble if you violate the law because you knew or should have known. But that's the only reason I chipped in what I did there ...
>>> however "secret rule 11" isn't exactly something publicly posted or handed out on platforms with other leafleting and thus I would EXPECT that the standard of conduct for the public would be a bit lower than it would be for people who actally RECEIVE the rule scrolls if you can follow my reasoning here. <<<
Due process does require some kind of warning, but in subways, the lock on a cab door is enough indication that it is not a public area for passengers to satisfy due process. I am surprised that cab doors do not have decals on them indicating that they are for authorized personnel only though.
Tom
There are such decals posted on the cab doors.
On many full-width cab doors, yes, but not all of them and not on any of the half-cab doors.
David
Your example of speeding or trespassing though is usually based on "signage" such as speed limit signs, no trespassing signs or "restricted area" signs which clearly state expected behavior in a particular place. If you choose to IGNORE them, then "ignorance of the law is no excuse" ... however "secret rule 11" isn't exactly something publicly posted or handed out on platforms with other leafleting and thus I would EXPECT that the standard of conduct for the public would be a bit lower than it would be for people who actally RECEIVE the rule scrolls if you can follow my reasoning here.
Entering an area posted with a "No Trespassing" sign is not illegal if you are invited into the area by a person who is (or appears to be) in control of the premises. That is what applied in Salaam Allah's situation.
why did this happen this sunday ?
caught the long island BUS from the hempstead station to long beach ny bus # 15
arrived in the afternoon hourson a lazy sunday at the lirr long beach
station & saw it 4 the first time in my life..
got off of the bus there walked into the lirr station saw a lot of MU
cars sitting there fired off about 7 digital shots or so!
as usual folks seemed 2 be frendly and did not mind which is the usual
every time i take pictures of the long island railroad stations & the
rail cars anywhere ................................................
having taken a few shots not it is time 2 go see the beach which
reminded me somewhat of long beach back in california !!
BUT >>>>>>>>>>suddenly here comes this long beach [ robo cop ]
with a beast look on his face beaming at me like he is going 2 do
something nasty 2 me !! I could feel it coming this monster !!
this crap drags on & on about why i was taking pictures of the trains
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
OH NO !! here we go again !!!!!!!!!!
i remember this white woman conductor wave a frendly smile at me..BUT,
some white bigot lady on the train( a lirr conductor )she said radioed
in that some bald headed BLACK MAN was taking pictures of the train!!
OMG !! i mean i was really committing SOME BIG CRIME HERE FOLKS !!
i am sorry folks but this time i had 2 tell him that if i was a
WHITE MALE PHOTOGRAPHER ............nothing would have been done ...no radio call......
& no complaint at all would have been made here ....!!!
it took another 1/2 hour to wait until my california id was cleared!!
i am also sure if i was a WHITE MALE i would not have had 2 show my
id either !! i probably would have not been asked 2 stop at all !!
the officer turend almost red in the face at my suggestion of this!
i am a rail / bus transit photographer first my race-religion should
not matter 2 anyone at all , as long as i am not doing anything wrong
and taking pictures of the historic lirr long beach station is not !!
( i took some more shots later that night no problem )
this did not rise 2 the level of this racist hate at all !!
sorry folks but i am in the hobby of taking train / transit shots
and no criminal actions whatsoever !!
this officer should not have gone to such a high level to me in my
opinion because i am a black railfan photographer
this is my opinion and hell yes i am a mad as hell about this !!
i dont care if i m attacked about this post i am telling the truth
about this totally racist incident which this bigot white female
conductor should be questioned about her real motives and the
long beach mta officer as well !!!
a much more civilized not assuming i was a fleeing escaped felon
because i am a black man first should not have been in those 2
horrible folks at the long beach lirr station today sunday
afternoon sept 29 .02- 4:30pm!!
he also tole me how horrible the village of hempstead is !!...???
i am telling this like it really happened this should not happen
2 anyone for this reason ..... i know i got this one right this
time
Finally we all need to stand up 4 our rights to take pictures of
trains and public transit here in america or we are going 2
loose it altogether .....thankz again salaamallah
...............no ...lol
There are 3 issues here:
1. The legal issue re Salaam. He was in a cab "without authorization." But he was invited in by the T/O. I 100% agree that this is not a major violation of the laws of the State of New York. He probably was treated worse because of his ethnicity.
2. The disciplinary issue re the T/O. The T/O violated the rules (a) because he was a nice guy and possibly (b) because he thought Salaam had better credentials than he actually did. Again, it doesn't strike me as a big deal, but the NYCT may make him pay in a very big way just because that's how bureaucracies enforce discipline.
3. The MORAL issue re Salaam. He KNEW (if he paid attention) that the T/O did NOT have the right to invite him into the cab. Therefore he fairly consciously was willing to risk the T/O's job security in order to get better footage. That's bad behavior. If a random goose asks to be invited into the cab, and is, that's not morally indefensible because the goose doesn't realize he is risking the T/O's career. But Salaam did, if he was paying any attention. And it's especially bad behavior if Salaam in any way misrepresented himself in order to induce the T/O to invite him in.
>>> I do not feel he deserved to be arrested or even detained. <<<
First of all, he was not arrested. There was no record created that would go on a rap sheet. The detention was used to determine that Salaam was who he said he was. There was probably an NCIC check run on him, a check of his web site to see his transportation photos, and probably an inquiry to Los Angeles (in the wee hours of the morning) for any information about police or LACMTA security contacts. When no discrepancies were found, he was released without charges even though he could have been charged with a misdemeanor. IMHO a completely reasonable resolution of the situation.
From a security standpoint, this was much more serious than a T/O giving his girlfriend or a relative a ride in the cab. The T/O had allowed a stranger into the cab who he had never met before and did not know. You cannot fault the TA for wanting to know how much of a threat this person with no local address who could talk his way into an operating cab was. It was prudent of the TA to hold Salaam long enough to check him out to be sure he was who he said he was.
Tom
Salaam keeps asking "Did I rape, did I steal?" NO. Did he go to Jail? NO. He did trespass, even if by invitaion, But No Jail, just detention/verification. Some people relate this to being just short of going to the chair, apparently. That somehow it was not the action of the man involved, but rather the reaction of "The Man" to the individual, that resulted in such "harsh" treatment.
Agreed, but I'm going to suggest that we all do the "adult" thing and end the thread here and now. The issue is over and done, and nothing we post here is going to change one tiny thing.
[...had Salaam been a white man with a more Anglo sounding name or had he been buddies with a MTA bureaucrat, this whole thing would have been handled differently.]
I would hope that ANY unauthorized person would be removed from the cab and held for ID check, be it a so-called "railfan" or a T/O's girlfriend or a bureaucrat. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, it's all about safety. (Unfortunately, you're probably right about the bureaucrat part. Wasn't there such a case a few years back?)
[...had Salaam been a white man with a more Anglo sounding name or had he been buddies with a MTA bureaucrat, this
whole thing would have been handled differently.]
************************
thank you told the truth!!
This city is on edge at the present time. People here are expecting something else to happen. No one knows what to expect. But the subway is a good place for something to happen. Set off a bomb on a train in midtown Manhattan during PM rush hour. It's possible! You'd be surprised what it's like when someone reports white powder on a bench. The line gets shut down until either the powder is carefully cleared up. Or it's been just another false alarm. The 3rd or 4th one today. Either way, until it has been cleared up customers have to wait. Some at stations. Others on trains between stations. And still others waiting outside stations. And maybe, just maybe someone thought you might be the one who'd do it. I'll admit it's farfetched. On the other hand, last year no one thought 2 jets would crash into a pair of tall buildings.
I'll repeat something I recently said on airliners.net. This goes not for just you, but for most New Yorkers:
Calm down and stop worrying. Have a good stiff drink or a Valium. You're getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. There are real things to worry about in everyone's life, but terrorism isn't one of them.
Just keep the following in mind:
There is nothing to worry about.
9/11 was a one-in-a-quadrillion shot.
Al-Qaeda has been destroyed (and wasn't much of a threat to begin with).
Osama bin Laden is dead.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
Case closed.
I concur with your thoughts, people are way too jumpy. Things that were everyday occurances pre 9/11 now are terrorist plots. I think the problem is that too many people lead boring lives and thinking about the worst case senario in every day living, gives them some excitement. Unfortunatly, Salaam paid a price this time. As I said in another post, the incident was minor; the worst thing to come out of it would be the TO being suspended. The other sad outcome would be if Salaam, a talented photographer, lost his enthusiasim for what he loves.
I concur with your thoughts, people are way too jumpy. Things that were everyday occurances pre 9/11 now are terrorist plots. I think the problem is that too many people lead boring lives and thinking about the worst case senario in every day living, gives them some excitement.
I have a psychological/historical theory of why everyone's blowing the terrorist "thread" grotesquely out of proportion. During the Vietnam War, just about everyone - including the federal government, the news media, and the public at large - greatly underestimated the strength and tenacity of the enemy. By the time it finally dawned on everyone that the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong weren't just cowardly little men in pajamas, well, it was too late and all Hell broke loose. What's happening now is a classic case of overcompensation, where al-Qaeda is protrayed as a fearless band of supermen.
I concur with your thoughts, people are way too jumpy. Things that were everyday occurances pre 9/11 now are terrorist plots. I think the problem is that too many people lead boring lives and thinking about the worst case senario in every day living, gives them some excitement.
I have a psychological/historical theory of why everyone's blowing the terrorist "threat" grotesquely out of proportion. During the Vietnam War, just about everyone - including the federal government, the news media, and the public at large - greatly underestimated the strength and tenacity of the enemy. By the time it finally dawned on everyone that the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong weren't just cowardly little men in pajamas, well, it was too late and all Hell broke loose. What's happening now is a classic case of overcompensation, where al-Qaeda is protrayed as a fearless band of supermen.
thankz piggo12 !
There is nothing to worry about.
They are waiting for our guard to be down before they try again.
9/11 was a one-in-a-quadrillion shot.
It was a well planned incident and it will be attempted again.
Al-Qaeda has been destroyed (and wasn't much of a threat to begin with).
It is like an iceburg. Most of it is hidden underwater; Dangerious to ships who don't show caution appreaching it.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
When I see the body.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
We won a battle. The war isn't over.
Case closed.
You wish!
Ok you convinced me,
I'm going to quite my job and move to a doomsday camp in Montana, I'm bringing a dozen high power shot guns and a years supply of bottled water (and enough 9-Lives for my little cat, even she's getting worried the terrorists are about to strike in the next week or so). Have I forgotten anything?
How about a website www.theskyisfalling.com?
"The war on terrorism is over."
There are still tens of thousands of folks out there who would love to detonate an A-bomb in midtown.
Will they succeed? Not if we make an effort to stop them, which includes a wide range of activities, from helping Rusia track its uranium, to computerizing records on aliens, to keeping better track of what comes in our ports.
But if we just close our eyes and do nothing, it may take them 20 years, but they will succeed.
By the way, I'm not arguing that any of this would have been a justification for arresting Salaam (which didn't happen, after all). I'm just saying there IS a danger.
>>> Just keep the following in mind:
There is nothing to worry about.
Now we are taking advice from Alfred E. Newman.
9/11 was a one-in-a-quadrillion shot.
No that was Pearl Harbor. After that we vowed we would never be caught asleep again.
Al-Qaeda has been destroyed (and wasn't much of a threat to begin with).
Thank goodness they were the only ones in the world who dislike the U.S.
Osama bin Laden is dead.
So are Che Guevera and Michael Collins.
The war on terrorism is over.
We won.
As we won the wars on poverty and drugs.
Tom
"9/11 was a one-in-a-quadrillion shot.
No that was Pearl Harbor. After that we vowed we would never be caught asleep again."
Actually, the one in quadrillion (OK, we exaggerate) shot was the Japanese not finding the USS Enterprise and its sister aircraft carrier at Pearl Harbor. That was the bet we had to win. And did.
the terrorists won ! we cant shoot subway videos anymore & shoot
pictures of the subway anymore !!
its all over folks !
1. There is N-O R-U-L-E against taking pictures (moving or otherwise) in the subway.
2. The rules against unauthorized people being in operating cabs have been in effect since L-O-N-G before September 11, 2001.
David
I forgot you were a bit of a WWII history buff. You are very very correct about the real good fortune being the Enterprise, Yorktown and Lexington (Hornet was not commissioned yet, Wasp was in the Atlantic and the Saratoga was in its semi-permenet home, dry dock being repaired - Langely was too old to count) being out of Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41. In a way we benefited from the old adage "Generals (or Admirals) always fight the last war". The conventional wisdom of that day was battleships were the main asset of a navy. Aircraft carriers were some new fangled thing that hadn't proven a thing yet. But WWII proved that the carrier was the important asset. In fact American battleships played a very minor role in winning the war in the Pacific, their only real value was a an anti-aircraft gun platform - they carried a lot of AA.
thanks guy ! glad 2 have met you on the museum ride !!
& i think you know i did not want any harm 2 come 2 anyone !!
the operator did not deserve to be diciplined in any way
i did not deserve a 4 1/2 hour de-breefing Q&A ...pre arrest!!
piggo i do not deserve to be attacked here !!
i did not vandal rob rape kill steal etc...
that supervisoe saw i was co-operating the rat squealed then hid his
coward ass ... he should have been forced 2 go to the TA police with
me and my wife who as not inside that transverse cab .....
again nice 2 have met you at the museum ride !! thankz salaamallah
Salaam, you should be proud, you're famous!!! How many people can say they are the subject of a transit bulletin?
Besides, maybe its just a coincidence and "you know who" is someone else. Then you're guilty of stealing all his glory!!!
( sigh ) .....
Salaam, you should be proud, you're famous!!!
i wanted to be from the results of my rail bus video / photography
not this !!
and "you know who" is someone else. Then you're guilty of stealing all his glory!!!
no i dont think so since i am under attack it is making me depressed
and i am not happy about this at all !!
thankz 4 trying 2 cheer me up !!
Salaam,
Don't get down, you have friends and supporters here. I think Jeffery Rosen was right when he said that the guys are mainly just busting your chops. Sure, there are a few hateful people who can't stand the fact you spend a lot of time doing something you both enjoy and are very good at, that is their problem. They probably lead very boring lives and can't deal with others being happy. I know I enjoy the pictures you share with us on this board. You are a top notch photographer and it would be very sad if you lost your enthusiasim for your profression due to this.
I was thinking, if that TO did get suspended, I would be the first one to make a contribuiton to make up the pay he lost. He was obviously a good guy and was not trying to do cause any trouble.
Anyway, enjoy the rest of your stay here in NYC and I know I'm very eager to see the results of your work during this trip.
Piggo
thankz again took some nice pics of the #7 !!
"so the rat patrol will be out in full force looking fo victims !"
Salaam, time for a reality check. The people who do their jobs are not the rats. The people who enforce rules are not the rats. The people who prey on innocent people, the people who lie to get what they want are the rats. The people who don't care about the rules are the rats. The people who selfishly put other people's jobs in jeopardy for their own ends are the rats. So when you talk about the rat patrol, look in the mirror. They are thee.
My opinion is, every T/O knows the no cab rule. If you ask and they say no, you accept no and you sit right down. If you ask and they say yes, you go in there like a feather falling from the sky and don't make a peep. In my eyes, this incident falls on the blame of the T/O for saying yes to Salaam. Salaam should NOT have been taken into custody, though if he was wearing a vest, that raises suspicion, a tremendous amount. The fact that the T/O hated his job oh so very much leaves me with close to no feelings for this situation, I'm neutral.
why did the rat disapear ?? he should have not been allowed to slime
away and fade out !!
Salaam you don't get it. He had another call he had to respond to a BIE at 110 Street. I'm sure he gave the P/O all the details. The TSS is almost being treated like a hero.
i meant he should have come to the TA police with us 2 follow up
( just a comment )
I was asking around about the Salaam incident. Everyone is kind of quiet yet aware of it. Some guys who work Lexington told me that they recall being approached by some guy who asked alot of questions and asked to ride in the cab that night. They also gave me a description of Salaam.
Here are some of my opinions:
Salaam should've had the common sense to know he was doing something wrong, and jeopardizing the T/O's job. This was a selfish act on Salaam's part.
The T/O should've known that he could be written up for this. All the talk about the A division being lenient, and the B division being strict is pure lies. "A" division is just as strict and the T/O should've known this.
Although I have never met or seen Salaam, my feeling is that his appearance may have contributed to the histeria. That is of course, if his appearance matches what I've been told.
The TA takes this incident seriously enought that they issued a bulletin on this issue right away. By Monday, I will know what the T/O's punishment is.
I have more to say, but I'm new around here, so I'll keep it to myself. But I will say this. I hate the 4 line with such a passion. If I find out that this T/O is restricted, and I get his job all b/c of you Salaam, then I hope you get banned from this message board.
>>I have more to say, but I'm new around here, so I'll keep it to myself. But I will say this. I hate the 4 line with such a passion. If I find out that this T/O is restricted, and I get his job all b/c of you Salaam, then I hope you get banned from this message board.<<
Just to let you know things WAY worser than driving a subway line you dont like can happen. And yes most likely he will be restricted and someone will have to fill his position. Im not trying to be mean to you because you are a nice guy, but if you do get the 4 then it won't be the end of the world! And I doubt Dave is going to boot him off Subtalk.
I know Dave is not going to boot Salaam. I was just kidding with him, and that should've been detected in my cybertone.
And I am well aware that there are things far worse than working a line that you don't like. Not a day goes by that I don't thank my lucky stars for having this job. Everything I have comes from this job. My car. My apartment. My health insurance.
So what'll you have this weekend Sciguy? How about 2 trips from WDL to Utica, leaving UTICA two behind each time, but you'll leave WDL on time so that you get no lunch, no time to wind down, no nothing. And of course, your last trip is to NLTS going local down Lex and waiting 10 minutes at Wall St. due to the wrong-rail GO going on at Bowling Green.
whew !!......................close call !!
>>>>no lol
Don't worry 1. The Job is a good one 2 trips. 2. It must of been a RX T/O because with a 3 digit Seniority No. I don't think he would do such a thing unless he is going to retire.
An appropriate memorandum. One that should be observed and respected by all.
Yeah, like we didnt see this coming. Im sure when I go to White Plains today, itll be all over the place and TSS out the ass will be talking to me. Let me get ready for the drama.............
Unbelievable!
But I do believe it is appropriate.
--Mark
Yesterday on my first trip a TSS from Safety and Compliance was at Astor Place handing out the Bulletins about what happen monday. Right now this T/O will be used as a Example and its not looking good at all the way supervision is talking. The T/O looks like its someone on the Extra list. So far Supervsion is checking to make sure we in compliance of the Bulletin.
I was also reminded if anyone ask to enter the cab they must be a TSS or RCI and I should check their ID before letting them enter the cab. If the person fails to give ID notify Control Center immediately.
T/O's are being told if they see someone with a video camra and ask if they could enter the cab they are to Notify Control Center.
The last part is not in the bulletin but verbal instuctions.
Its plain and simple for me the Management on the Lexington Ave line are tighting up and I can't blame them and since downtown is now looking at the #4,5,6 Lines no one is going to slide if someone is in you operating cab OSS.
Thanks Alot you know who really made my week now!!!!!
F^cking Salaam. All this heat on us because he wants to videotape trains.
Since a more than adequate verbal flogging has been doled out to the responsible party, let's all just remind ourselves of a few things:
1) If you want to photograph rail-related activity, you'd be better off getting written permission to do it. Yes, it's a free country, but this is for YOUR own protection and the protection of others.
2) Transport services feed people. The trains don't run themselves and we should be mindful of our actions because running a railroad allows people to put food on their tables. If you are doing something that may jeopardize that, please think twice.
3) You have NO rights to do anything on mass transit or railroads other than to ride. This is what you pay your fare for. All of the other privileges can be revoked at any time and one should remember that since transport exists in the real world, both rational and irrational fears can have an impact on those rules. Believing that we have a right to things that we DON'T have rights to causes us to do things that we should not do.
4) Honesty is the best policy. Favors continue to be handed out on transit systems nationwide. All transit agencies know that these favors happen, but normally they will look away. However, if someone misrepresents themselves, you may be guilty of an additional crime. If you are offered a favor, make sure your "donor" is protected in order to protect yourself and the employee. Don't ask for too many favors...unless you're an 8 year old, you'll look shady and spook the wrong people.
5) Mass transit in particular is run by political entities. When we are talking about WAR, don't do anything suspicious on a transit system, lest you be made into an example.
Enough said. Good night.
I agree with everything presented except #1 and #4. NYCT does not require a permit for photography within its subway system, as long as it is for personal use, and will not issue one. However, someone going to another city to take pictures on its transit system should, as a matter of course, check with the operating agency to find out whether a permit is required, and if so, to request one. As for #4, if a "favor" is to be asked, it should be asked of the AGENCY, not an individual, by letter.
David
enough mourning over not being able to shoot the subway on video..
here in my ...home...birthplace....nyc....ny.....
my final week here will be spent shooting the long island rail road
they do not seem 2 care as long as my ticket is paid !!
looking foward 2 this anyway !! my last day will be spent taking pics
only of redbirds only ( sigh ) for the last time.............
Stay tuned. Reports from Long Island later in the week. Maybe film at 11.
I'd be VERY careful if I were you...the LIRR is under state operation and federal jurisdiction. Oh, and most of them can't tell people from the Middle East apart:(
Hey cheer up, Salaam. I feel bad for how you've fallen into this fiasco. All I expect from you is great subways and rails in action. That's what I know you for. Not some criminal!
Salaam, there's one video I'd love to see you shoot - that is if it wouldn't be to involved. Of course, it'll take another person to help you and some music. What I had in mind is a videotape of you, wearing an engineer's cap, standing in front of the Jay Street tower, singing that famous song from the "Wizzard of Oz". You know the one when Dorothy's travelmates were discussing what they wanted from the wizzard - the song the scarecrow sang.
LOL!!
i am not an actor .....sorry....
however i am more like a preecher minister ..type ...
hollywood is a big bore even from the los angeles red line
hollywood / vine station !!....
i prefer 2 work behind the scenes shooting with video cameras
mixing music doing live recordings of jazz / blues / rb / type music.
i would never do an acting role at any time not my cup of tea !!
been there done that guys ( on da' last 2 posts ) ...
next time you are in hollywood ca. i will show you how shallow this
is!! i would rather hang out in a rail transit museum big time !!
let the rail equipment be the real actors 4 sure
by the way i taped the babylon line today it was great enjoyed it!
photographed like MAD & took a LONG VIDEO yea man !!! ...
.............no...........lol
If I were ? I would not use liquid oxygen to power a diesel electric, sub, i'd fix all the leaks and launch a torpedoe only with positive indication of sea doors open. If I had a (TA hired me because I can shine a light in one ear and the light emits from the other) I would be ACMO! Komrade TrainDudesky: I have been working late nights to help my fellow CIs out of a jam and called in last week because I would be late by a half hour...sup gave me a tour change and BeH went bonkers....'You, blah blah and blah blah work and contribute to this crew...I'd given you a half hour late grace and you should have not worked the extra hour.' One blah blah was Komrade from Concoursky...class of September 17th. Komrade Gurt...is my friend. Somehow, the Lord Graced us all and brought most of us together in one place fixing up these old trains. CI Peter
Dude, I'm just picturing what that would look like...LMAO!!!! -Nick
sorry folks shot the babylon line yesterday !
nice !! enjoyed it big time !!
thats the only acting i will do !!
LMAO, LOL????? What the hell to they mean anyway?
LMAO = Laughing My @ss Off
LOL = Laugh out loud
A derivative you may see is ROTFLMAO which is "rolling on the floor laughing my @ss of".
Also, reserved for future use:
SCA = Salaam caught again
--Mark
Thanks Mark. For the longest time I was embarrassed to ask for some strange reason. Now I can use them myself and save type space.
How about this one:
DILLIGAF
The answer: (in invisible ink)
Do I Look Like I Give a F_ck?
sorry folks !!
let try something else !!
like shooting a railfan video ...!
/ digital still pictures ...............................!
You mean "If I only had a railfan window"?:)
Passing by @ Unionport Yard saw R29 #8678-#8679 with 89xx & #91xx sitting on Track 33.
David J.
8678 and 8679? I think those should be under water. Could you tell if they had yellow Pelham Stickers under the plates?
-Stef
Stef,Yes they have yellow Pelham Stickers under the rusting number plates.
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
What?!? Where have they been hiding out? I assumed all Pelham R-29s got reefed!!!
-Stef
Not all R29 cars have been placed out of their misery as of yet. There are 4 R26's left (7818-7819, 7846-7847) 1 or 2 sets of R28s (7862-7863, 7938-7939) and about a dozen R29s in the 8700 series still left.
Why those cars are there at Unionport beats me. I assume it's b/c they can't move at all b/c they've been rotted away so much.
Please get these cars in the water with the fishies! That's where they belong. It's 2002-time for some high tech!
#7706 4 Lexington Ave Express
GO HI TECH! GO ADA! RAH RAH RAH, PHIM TOOM BA!
Um....go....rustbird...ah the hell with it.
I agree. High tech=high dreck. The basic concept of electric traction is the same tech that's been moving people for over 100 years. ADA compliance is great, but other than that, bells and whistles and coputers do not improve my ride. P.S.--Last time I saw "modern technology," it was in the form of deisel busses replacing streetcars. Everybody lost on that one, except maybe Standard Oil and GM.
Gotta completely disagree here. Today's cars are quieter, easier to maintain, more reliable, more energeny efficient and more comfortable. Technology is good. With that attitude, the TA should have simply bought a few hundred R1's every decade. Who wants that?
Amen! Couldn't agree with ya more. The older cars seem to ride kinda rough-especially some of the RedBirds. I remember riding 9701 recently on the Flushing Local and the Link bars were so shot that when the train was leaving the station, that the rear car, 9700 would slam into 9701 pushing it to move, causing a loud sound.
9700-9701 were taken out of service as of 10-8-2002.
#1700 7 Flushing Local
Actually, I don't think today's cars are more comfortable. The R-142A's and R-143's let off an awful squeal when they stop, and all three types have very loud fans -- and loud announcements to compensate. Older cars rumble once they pick up speed but at least they're reasonably quiet in stations, where more people hear the noise and where important announcements tend to be made.
And the new cars' seats jab my lower back at a point where it doesn't bend. I call that pain, not comfort. The Redbird seats fit perfectly. While some don't seem to have a problem with the R-142 seats, I don't think I've heard from anyone who's uncomfortable in Redbird seats.
I have nothing against the new, but I have nothing against the old either. I prefer to evaluate based on merit.
I do find the new trains to be a bit too bright though also. I don't know if it's the lighting, or because the walls are so white. I feel that they are very sterile. I feel darker walls, even a light shade of beige would have softened them up a bit, and make them feel less like a hospital emergency room.
YES!!! This is what I have been talking about all along. RonInBayside says the purpose for it is ADA compliance, but I prefer the lighting in a redbird any day of the week....
I don't get the ADA compliance aspect of it. But even if the lights are brighter because of the ADA compliance, it doesn't mean they couldn't make the walls a bit darker. I guess the white is for a "bright, clean look". Well they accomplished "sterile" instead, and that's not meant as a compliment to the trains.
"I don't get the ADA compliance aspect of it."
Do you or your family members have:
Macular degeneration?
Cataracts?
Glaucoma?
Other retinopathies?
Difficulty seeing in low-light conditions?
Legal blindness, but able to see light and shadow?
When people think of ADA they think of wheelchairs, amputees, polio victims etc. But disabilities include difficulty seeing and hearing. The brightness of the subway car can really make a difference. The lighting in an R29 is fine for most people but is very problematic for people with vision problems. Bright interiors help enhance visibility.
The "hard of hearing" aspect is addressed by the electronic visual destination announcements.
And I prefer enough light to read by. "form follows function"
Heh, it wasn't too long ago that people were complaining about dark subway cars .....
--Mark
I find the R142's to be much more comfortable than the R62's in the area of seating, lighting and mechanical noise. The R26-36 seats are more comfortable than both, though.
Actually, I don't think today's cars are quieter. The R-142A's and R-143's let off an awful squeal when they stop, and all three types have very loud fans -- and loud announcements to compensate. Older cars rumble once they pick up speed but at least they're reasonably quiet in stations, where more people hear the noise and where important announcements tend to be made.
And the new cars' seats jab my lower back at a point where it doesn't bend. I call that pain, not comfort. The Redbird seats fit perfectly. While some don't seem to have a problem with the R-142 seats, I don't think I've heard from anyone who's uncomfortable in Redbird seats.
I have nothing against the new, but I have nothing against the old either. I prefer to evaluate based on merit.
These are what remain of active R-26/28/29s. I believe there are 22 cars still assigned to the 2/5. Eventually these will fade away...
-Stef
Are they all lumped together into two trainsets plus two leftovers, or are they arbitrarily intermixed in various consists?
I did see a full 5 consist of green Unionport stickers the other day. (And I wasn't even scuba diving.)
R26 R28 and R29's from the #5 Line I presume? And 10 cars?
Were they all Green stickered? Black? Yellow? Some 1 color and some another?
Extra storage perhaps since Concourse is full? Anybody know all the car numbers?
#7818 5 Lexington Ave Thru Express
Like I said in another post, there are still R-26/28/29s on the road. Solid consists of green stickered cars....
-Stef
They're on the road-I know. But I was asking about the ones that are in UnionPort Yard.
#7819 5 Lexington Ave Thru-Express
Hi Subtalk friends.
I'm traveling to NYC Oct 1-7th for a week of railfanning and sightseeing. Things have changed alot since my last extended railfanning trip and I have a few questions for you knowledgable people.
First, which routes now have trains with railfan windows? I like the slants the best but don't mind peeking thru the transverse cabs as long as I can see thru the black window covering they now seem to use alot.
Second, are there any interesting reroutings (GOs) going on during this time?
Thanks guys.
As you know, the railfan window is rapidly becoming an endangered species. AFAIK the following routes feature equipment with railfan windows; i. e., cars with half cabs and storm doors: 4, 5, 7, A, C, E, F, J, L, M, N, and Q.
You might get lucky on the 3 if a single R-62A is the lead motor.
The 4, 5, and 7 still have Redbirds. This may be your last chance to ride on them.
For GOs, check here.
well all lines have rail fan windows except the 1 and 4 train.All the other lines have a railfan window wether it be a black window,which you can see out but kinda blurry a little,or a regular RF window.
You can catch a railfan window on the 3 as long as the lead car is a R62A single.Redbirds still roam around on the 4,5,and 7 but not as much as there used to be.You'll be happy I bet to ride an R143 on the L and on the weekend M Shuttle from Myrtle Av-Metropolitan Av.I'll be more than happy to tag along with ya during the that week....well which is technically next week.
Friday October 4th is the second & final "Field Trip to the Beaches of Rock and Long" ... for this year ... the BMTman has made a more detailed post elsewhere.
In Sao Paulo next month, they are going to open a new subway line, 5-Lilac. Last Sunday they gave tours to people who wanted to check out the line before it opened. What a cool idea, has any subways in the US done anything similar? The closest I know of is MARTA had an innagural run of the North Springs segment, but that was on opening day. This is more evidence for me suspecting that the Sao Paulo Metro is run by railfans.
The article is here, but I'll summarize it here:
On Sunday 9/22, citizens of the area will be able to tour Line 5-Lilac for the first time and cover the entire line from Capao Redondo to Largo 13. The Secretary of Metropolitan Transport will be on the first trip at 10 am. A train will run from 10 am to 3 pm to for people to ride. The train will run from Capao Redondo to Largo 13 without stopping at the intermediate stations. The tours will be used for letting riders familarize themselves with the line and how to use it. At Capao Redondo, there will be community activities like artwork and music.
I wish I could have went.
I don't know about transit projects, but I know that in Boston they gave a walking tour of one of the Big Dig highway tunnels before it was opened to traffic. There were ads for the tour inside all the subway trains back in August. I don't remember the date of the tour, only that I wasn't going to be in town long enough to take it.
Mark
RTD gave preview runs on each of its light rail lines before they opened. They were pretty much by invitation only. For the first segment in 1994, you could apply for a pass and they'd mail you one. They took you on a tour of the maintenance facility and you could take a short demonstration run along part of the line up to where it turned beneath the Colfax Ave. viaduct. I got to go on previews of the other two segments through connections. I know someone who works for RTD who was kind enough to make arrangements for me to be on hand.
On the Southwest Corridor, you could ride from Mineral Ave. to Evans Ave. and back. You had to get off at Evans because the train continued on to I-25/Broadway, where it picked up revenue passengers.
On the Central Platte Valley Spur, you could ride from Union Station to Auraria West, but didn't have to get off. The train merely reversed direction. Although the spur opened on April 5, 2002, through trains didn't start running until the following day, when you could ride for free all day long.
While this isn't in the US, they gave tours in Toronto, Canada of the new Leslie Street station on the TTC's yet-to-be-opened Sheppard Avenue Subway last year.
They also had a demonstration run of Ottawa's O-train for Carleton University students about a month before it opened.
Hi Folks,
Just a quick note to tell y'all that version 3.3 of Tracks of the NYC Subway will be sent to the printer next Monday or Tuesday, with copies ready to be sent out no later than Thursday, October 3rd.
This is your last chance for any last-minute changes to make it in for this printing. I'm asking anybody who may know of current car/yard assignments, trackwork changes or new home signal designations to please drop me an e-mail.
Changes already noted for the new edition: New diamond X-over replacing the single at Rector St. on the 1/9; new diamond X-over replacing single at Rockaway Parkway on the L; K1 track at Atlantic Ave on the L; return of the 1/9 and 2/3 services and the re-opening of Cortlandt BMT; Closure of the 3 stations on Brooklyn and Stillwell tracks 1-6 and the track map of the JFK Airtrain.
I've updated the Towers section slightly but still would like to find out the actual operating limits of Queensboro Master (I've heard about 6 different stories!), and the fate of the interlocking towers it replaced--i.e. which are unstaffed, which are closed outright, etc.
I've seen new bagged signals at 111th St. Interlocking but I don't yet have any new Homeball numbers.
To answer the 30 or 40 e-mails I've gotten on the subject, I'm once again taking orders so feel free to drop by the Web site later today.
Again, if you have any interesting information you'd like to see in print, please drop me a line and I'll do my best if it's within the context of the book material.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Next Week!
How about doing "Tracks of the Long Island Rail Road?"
Is it available in stores?
Is it available in stores?
It's in a couple of local hobby stores courtesy of a midtown book wholesaler, but that's about it. I'd dearly love to get in into a few local bookstores but there seems to be some resistance, despite its high sales volume. I've got a couple of other avenues to look into prior to the Christmas season, so we'll see how that plays out, but so far, the only place that seems to do well with it is the Internet.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
An Airtrain has derailed, and a person is trapped.
It appears to have happened in the vicinity of the Van Wyck, on aiport property.
Power has been removed, and rescue efforts are in progress.
A derailment already? Wow, that didn't take long.
Especially since the line is still in testing mode.
I guess they failed the test.
The person was removed, condition unknown, but not a fatality.
Here's the story on NY1:
http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=24674
More information here with close-up photos of the crash.
http://www.wnbc.com/news/1691016/detail.html
Ouch! It looks like the car is a write-off for sure. Presumably they're exempt from FRA standards.
Ouch! It looks like the car is a write-off for sure
Yeah, that car had less of a life than even the 110B's!
How does this make Bombarider look? Seems like they're becoming bad business....
-Stef
As if the R142's made them look good?
I wonder why Bombardier chose to use their own designed system. They acquired ADtranz, which made the people movers you see in Atlanta, Miami, London-Gatwick, etc. Those systems have over a 99.9% availibility rate, and it would have been cheaper in the R&D department.
MY question is why didn't they use standard rail cars instead of this high-tech junk. Standard rail cars too good for them?
wayne
MY question is why didn't they use standard rail cars instead of this high-tech junk. Standard rail cars too good for them?
wayne
Probably not jassy enough to justify a $5.00 fare.
Because it will be much cheaper to operate when you don't have to pay for a T/O. Remember that a private company is operating it. IIRC, The Hartsfield ADtranz system costs something like 5 cents per passenger to operate. But that people mover sees almost 250,000 passengers per day, one of the busiest in the world, so of course the costs will be lower. Since these types of systems are pre-designed off the shelf, it's much cheaper for construction than if you were to build a standard system.
Looks like that LRV is made out of pretty flimsy stuff! Phooey!
My condolences go out to the family of the operator.
wayne
FRA only regulates railroads, not bits and pieces of track that aren't connected to anything. Even large bits and pieces like the NYC subway aren't covered.
I didn't have time to peruse all the shots, but were there any other cars involved? I have heard that one or two other cars actually FELL off the structure and ended up in the street below...can anyone confirm this?
YOU PUT A 23 year old who was only on the job for a Year.. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!!!!! And since this is a NEW system, wouldn't it make sense to get the most train and the most skill people involved? PATH SHOULD BE ASHAME OF THEMSELVES FOR TRYING TO CUT COST AROUND SOMEONE'S LIFE!!!!! THIS MAKES NO DAMN!!!! SENSE!!! WHATSOEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
N BWY
Shitbag, what should they do? Put you in charge, your a immature kid. This guy im sure i can trust.
1) How long should Bombardier (or any other transit operator) have to pay/train someone before they get behind the controls? And how will they get any experience at all if they don't get to operate?
2) Bombardier says that they have better results training people who have no experience on other systems since there is nothing to "unlearn" - things that might be best practices on another system might be less than optimal on this system, and vice versa.
3) "PATH" is the operator of the PA's Hudson River rail lines and related routes. AirTrain is operated by Bombardier under a Design/Build/Operate/Maintain (DBOM) contract with the PANYNJ. About the only thing in common with PATH is that they are both rail operations.
Your post makes no damn sense, either. Come back when you can post coherently.
-Hank
Thanks for posting that. I hope the worker will pull through.
Time to do an investigation and examine all the systems...
I feel so sorry for the T/O. He didn't escape.... ;-(
I heard he's injured but okay right? I hope he's not seriously hurt.
He died in a hopsital. Check the other posts for confirmation on this grim report.
They rarely do ... that's why you don't screw around in a cab, and why you pay attention.
The NBC report has been updated with a statement from a Port Authority spokesman that the train operator died in hospital.
Sad.
John
Heard about this from a transit employee earlier. He wasn't sure of the situation -- just that he was told there had been a 'head-on collision' with two units of the AirTrain....he wasn't even sure if it was a manned unit or not. Now we know. Hopefully, the individual involved will make a full recovery.
This is not good news for the operator -- Bombardier -- as this is the second incident with one of their AirTrain systems (the other being a 'computer glitch' with the San Fran AirTrain last month).
Looking at the photos at the nbc site it's obviously a derailment and NOT a head-on collision.
Hopefully, the individual involved will make a full recovery.
Alas, not to be. He didn't make it.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Next Week
Sorry to hear that...
I just saw it about it on Channel 4 News, they said that the concrete bricks that were put in the Cars to simulate passengers went forward and crushed the Driver and later died at Jamaica Hospital.
-AcelaExpress2005
The bricks were unsecured inside the rail car? The lawyers are already lining up at the door of the Queens County Courthouse in Jamiaca for this one...
The lawyers are already lining up at the door of the Queens County Courthouse in Jamiaca for this one...
The lawyers will have even more of a field day. Part of the car design is contrary to New York State law. The feature that is contrary to NYS law did not have anything to do with the unfortunate accident. The illegal design feature is visible in the accident photos.
I had been planned to wait until operation commenced to bring suit to stop it. The law in question gives every citizen legal standing to sue the PA.
"The feature that is contrary to NYS law did not have anything to do with the unfortunate accident. The illegal design feature is visible in the accident photos.
I had been planned to wait until operation commenced to bring suit to stop it. The law in question gives every citizen legal standing to sue the PA. "
And what would that be? And why would you wait until operation began to bring it up?
Outside hung doors? What's the offending design part? You've got me quite curious now ...
Outside hung doors?
Yes
Sorry for ruining other people's fun if I did ... I was wondering about the safety of such a design myself, but never knew the state specifically proscribed it. Frightening ... some logic from Smallbany. Wonder how THAT happened? :)
More like a Stephen Baumism - posting nonsense because he likes to post.
If you believe him, of course, you've been living up in the woods too long. (WWII ended a while back, by the way. We won) :0)
Heh. Ain't been up here *THAT* long, but glad to know we finally beat those pesky Nips. I was getting a bit worried seeing all those Mitsubishis on the road. :)
But it certainly sounds logical enough for the state to have proscribed external-hung doors. Hell, they regulate the hell out of anything that isn't good for fast campaign cash (like railroads and public authorities and such) that I'd have no problem believing it.
Never heard about a state law about doors. I know that on LIRR when one door fails they have to lock out the good one too (unlike the TA whcih only lock the dad door) becasue that is an FRA rule and hence the M7's with only one door.
Well, actually when we locked out a door, it's mate on the other end of the seat (except for the end doors) would also have a dead leaf too. But who are we mere mortals to argue with the FRA? Could you imagine what it would have been like in the 70's if we had to do that? Aside from the "employee leaf" I'd guess that half the trains would be running light because none of them would open. :)
But yeah, I wasn't aware of any such rule but state law is jam packed with all sorts of silly little rules, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was such a rule. That's why I didn't approach it with such a degree of cynicism. Maybe Stephen can cite it so we can go look it up. New York may have the best crafted laws, but they've also got the most juice. I wouldn't be surprised if it's really there.
Let's assume that SB knows what he is talking about when he asserts that NY has such a law or rule. Is the PA required to obey it?
I'm actually a bit surprised he hasn't commented as yet, but my "BS-o-meter" still remains within the scale, but is about to leave the visible glass unless we hear from him soon. That all said, the PANYNJ is a "public authority" and like our lawgivers themselves ENTIRELY EXEMPT from law, every bit as surely as WTC and its PANYNJ environs were from fire laws and every other bit of oversight. THANKS for mentioning that angle, it's just one of many I didn't have the time to consider. But ***YES*** "Public authorities are ***ABOVE*** the law, because they are animals created by our LAW-GIVERS ...
After all, lawgivers ***ALWAYS*** exempt themselves on a proprietary basis from the laws they GIVE US ... and lo, verily, so it is and so it shall always be for we will RE-elect them.
Which, once again, reminds me that Pogo was right.
It was one of Kelly's most lucid moments. Much like "Zogby polls" ... ZOGBY is the frigging SAUDIS! 'nuff said. Paturkey wins. :)
I went away for a weekend trip shortly after my last post. For the benefit of those that are have difficulty with the eye, hand and brain coordination necessary to do research on the web and are forced to rely on agency press releases, here is the statute from the NYS Railroad Law.
§ 240. Gates or vestibule doors. Every car used for passengers upon elevated railroads shall have gates at the outer edge of its platforms so constructed that they shall, when opened, be caught and held open by such catch or spring as will prevent their swinging and obstructing passengers in their egress from or ingress to such cars, or vestibule doors so constructed as to slide into the body of the car; and every such gate or door shall be kept closed while the car is in motion; and when the car has stopped and a gate or door has been opened, the car shall not start until such gate or door is again firmly closed.
OK, I'll bite. What's the safety issue? That a passenger leans on the door and falls out?
In addition to that (failure of the door tracks) they can be readily ripped off in a sideswipe incident, dumping geese into the wreck. ("Do NOT lean on the doors" ...) There's several scenarios I can envision with a less than happy outcome.
That doesn't make it necessarily a faulty design - you have to consider a system in toto.
Before we go into areas nobody knows anything about (but everyone has an opinion, of course), let's see what the investigation reveals.
Agreed ... and I'm not claiming it's a "faulty design" but I would have preferences if my name was on a design. I can see that there's potential problems there that wouldn't exist if the doors were in pockets and protected by an exterior wall ... that's all I'm saying, that I could see how it COULD be a potential downside ...
Aren't HBLR and NCS doors hung on the outside?
FUGG if I no ... the only trains there are to ride around HERE are empty boxcars. :)
Yes. Well. Whenever I get really annoyed with the MTA, I always pause to reflect that at least they aren't the CDTA.
Ouch! Glad I have a CAR. :)
And of course, check the numbers. CDTA is Senator Joe Bruno. Curious as how they took it up the wazoo ... and LOVED it ... but Senator joey is ***INTO*** that kinda stuff. Alas, the Hershey Highway is in Pennsylvania or it would have run between Smallbany and his train station or ball park.
Yes and no. And irrelavent to this case.
Since HBLR and NCS are in New Jersey, New York law is meaningless.
The doors on those cars are of the 'plug' variety. When closed, the doors are flush with the sides of the car. When open, the door pops out and slides to the side.
-Hank
Well, London's been using this design in its 1992, 1995,and 1996 Tube Stocks; all of which have the outside hung doors.
wayne
I've seen that. Dunno if it's for real that they're prohibited in NYS, but I can see that it's a less advantageous design than a door mechanism that was more "protected." But no gib thing to me either way.
I'm a *LOT* more concerned about that dropped trackway. A *LOT* more concerned. Those don't exactly strike me as heavyweight cars and if the structure failed like that, ain't no way I'm riding that thing.
I was riding on the Northern Line Bank branch and we went round a very tight curve somewhere near Euston and Iheard a CLUNK on the side of the car, people in the car didn't pay it any mind; when I got off at Elephant & Castle I saw a nice little dent in the upper left corner of the hung door. Car was #53517, 1995 stock
wayne
Well, if it didn't fall off, that was a GOOD day. :)
I tell you, some things about the London Underground scare the heck out of me- one of them is the hung doors running in tube tunnels with almost no clearance. And BANK station with a sharp curve and huge gap and NO gap fillers, as bad as South Ferry, if not worse, very treacherous. It's a fun subway despite the hazards.
wayne
And ask yourself: how many accidents/fatalities have been linked to these doors? If the answer is zero or very few among billions of rides, then is that really a hazard?
The hung doors are probably not so much a hazard as the gaps between the platform and train at some of the stations. BANK is the worst, Waterloo, Paddington, and Edgware Road (Bakerloo) are worth mentioning; Farringdon (Metropolitan/Circle/Hammersmith&City) has a bad curve to it too. I was amazed at the way people merely STRODE over the gaps, as if they weren't there. It's especially bad at Westbound BANK where the train's not only on the curve but tilting away from the platform. I boarded at the other end of the station, where the platform was straight.
wayne
Well, you've got to hand it to the Brits ... unlike our crybabies here who go running to the barristers over any perceived slight or self-inflicted wound at least have enough SENSE to mind the gap. And, if they have little ones, have enough sense to PICK UP the child and deposit them on the platform.
But you can bet I wouldn't be leaning on the doors over there. :)
But you can bet I wouldn't be leaning on the doors over there. :)
Good luck trying, you have to be a dwarf to even get close to those doors when they're closed.
Mark
Heh. Ain't a shortie, so I guess I'll have to keep banging my heed until I see the light. :)
I'm a *LOT* more concerned about that dropped trackway. A *LOT* more concerned. Those don't exactly strike me as heavyweight cars and if the structure failed like that, ain't no way I'm riding that thing.
Perhaps I misread the stories, but it seemed to me that those were noise barriers that fell, not pieces of trackway. The trackway is the structure. The side walls or noise barriers were attached to the trackways after the trackways were assembled in place. In other words, the parts that fell are not load bearing. Of course in a derailment, when you're worried about falling, they don't seem to be much protection.
Well ... here's what Bill Newkirk posted as a link to an earlier artical about the event ... note the broken cement - THIS is what I base my earlier opinions on, not having anything more signficant to choose from ... as of the moment I hit POST, it's still as it was when I made my original comment ... the internet these days is notorious for news revisionism, hopefully the shot will remain intact by the time you read it ... broken cement says it all from then ...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020927/168/2c5v9.html
O.K. I looked at the shot. I live in NYC and visited the worksite to watch them build the sucker many times. The broken cement in that shot is the guideway sidewall, which is a piece that was added on to the basic guideway structure after the guideway was erected. I stand by my earlier comments. While the damage is obviously NOT GOOD, I do see it as an indication not that the structure is going to fall down, only that the ocassional train might fall off if it derails.
Now, don't you feel much better?
Heh. Like I said, Don't claim no expertise here ... but that particular photo was pretty scary to me ... since then, I've seen others. Only goes to show you the kind of thing limited information can present. I'll wait for the jury, I have a headache. Suffice it to say though, most others have ALREADY judged the outcome. Not me. :)
I'll wait for the jury, I have a headache.
Imagine how the jury will feel.
("Hung," heh!)
Mark
Perhaps I misread the stories, but it seemed to me that those were noise barriers that fell, not pieces of trackway. The trackway is the structure. The side walls or noise barriers were attached to the trackways after the trackways were assembled in place. In other words, the parts that fell are not load bearing. Of course in a derailment, when you're worried about falling, they don't seem to be much protection.
If and when there's ever a derailment of this type over the Van Wyck, the drivers below aren't much going to care whether or not the pieces of concrete falling from the sky were load-bearing parts of the el structure, either.
That is, if they survive.
Mark
That is, if they survive
Aww, that COMPLETEY didn't match what the "preview" showed. There were supposed to be little HTML-esque tags around that offsetting it as a Daily News-style comment, not the kind of flamebait you'd expect of a troll.
Mark
We love ya just the same ... wish I didn't hit "Post message" before I read what was in there first, but alas, once it's gone you've got a duplicate post ... :)
Also Docklands and Tyne and Wear Metro.
Simon
Swindon UK
How does Workers' Comp apply here? I assume that his estate can't sue his employer. Can someone else sue? Are there other potential defendants?
That was not a smart thing to do.
The news (channel 11) showed three units involved: 102 (badly damaged, front and underside), 210 and 121; then Ch.5 showed one of the units on the ground (perhaps on the back of a flatbed) and the two others still on the elevated structure.
wayne
They removed the cars from the structure with a crane, and loaded them on a flatbed truck. 102 will go to the investigators, the other cars to the shop.
-Hank
Wasn't there a seperate cab for the operator? If there was, the wall was not strong enough. Drywall perhaps??
Definately sorry to hear this, it seems Bombardier can't make anything that will run without serious and dangerous problems.
And Qtraindash can't post anything that doesn't sound ignorant...
Oh come ON ... the drywall was a nice touch. :)
Wasn't there a seperate cab for the operator?
No. These cars are designed to run un-attended, and a cab would take space away from the passenger area. The controls are under a locked panel at the end of the car:
This is the normal view a passenger would see:
And this is what the controls look like when the panel is open:
I would think it is kinda dangerous for anyone to be in anything moving, without a barrier, with concrete blocks all over the place.
Just saw this minutes ago on Channel 7 news.
They said a (JFK) Airtrain failed to negotiate a curve. The train hit the concrete guideway edge. Video seen of car #102, damaged bad and the concrete aerial guidway ("el") was damaged too. The train operator died enroute to the hospital. He may have been ejected through the front windshield, I was told just now that the windshield was missing.
An earlier report told of a derailment in Howard Beach. I immediately thought of R-143 testing on the test track, but that's further south near Broad Channel.
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw that Pic of that car on the NBC4 and ABC7's Website. It looks like that 1st Car nearly fell down to the ground and would had become Scrap Metal
>>It looks like that 1st Car nearly fell down to the ground and would had become Scrap Metal<<
If there was no concrete barrier there it most certainly will. It's a good thing they don't use those metal stanchions and pipes that the TA uses on their "el" structures.
Now since the train operator died in the crash, we may never know if he was going too fast or mechanical failure was the cause. He was only 23 years old. Damn shame.
Bill "Newkirk"
Damn, I didn't realize he died! Only 23, that is a real shame!
HE WAS TOO YOUNG TO BE DRIVING A TRAIN OF THIS NATURE... IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT TO THE EXPERTS! BUT SINCE THE PATH WANTS TO CUT COST, THIS IS THE OUTCOME!!!
N BWY
Please see my response here in response to your similar comment earlier in the thread.
>>> HE WAS TOO YOUNG TO BE DRIVING A TRAIN OF THIS NATURE <<<
How old do you have to be to drive a train designed to operate without a driver? The last time I looked we had 23 year olds flying supersonic fighter planes.
Tom
P.S. The Caps Lock key is usually on the left side of the keyboard. You have apparently struck it by accident and now need to strike it again.
And one training for a Space Station mission (though his trainers are none too keen about him. They want the $$$ they were paid to taske him).
Ummm ... I operated trains for NYCTA when I was 19. For what it's worth, Airtrain does NOT require train operators at all. The "train operator" is a computer. The poor soul on the train was there simply as an "observer" of the testing, had the console open most likely for test and monitoring of the equipment while it operated autonomously. This whole "age thing" matters not here ... and for the record, I'm 51 now so I can look at this from both sides of that question.
Just because the media said he was driving the train, I wonder if the train was operating automatically and he was just on board to supervise, sort of like on WMATA. I guess the investigation will tell us that. I would also be curious to find out why the bricks weren't stabalized. In photos I saw of the Acela Express in testing, it didn't appear that the weights on that train were stabalized either.
>>> Now since the train operator died in the crash, we may never know if he was going too fast or mechanical failure was the cause <<<
I am sure on a test run like this they were recording all sorts of things including the speed. Their "black boxes" should provide strong clues to the cause of the accident.
Tom
ditto. This is a modern system. A black box system is a must for PR brochers. But with Bombardier the PA might find those black boxes are sitting in a VIA cars somewhere:-(
With bombardier you must check for all the parts. How many R-142s came with missing parts?
"Now since the train operator died in the crash, we may never know if he was going too fast or mechanical failure was the cause. He was only 23 years old. Damn shame."
Wrong. That information doesn't depend on the T/O. The train probably has software which records speed and other data, and forensic investigation can determine the accident conditions.
Car accidents which kill the drivers can be reconstructed by tire marks, the amount of damage done, orientation of the vehicle after it comes to rest, other debris like tree branches, pieces of railing etc., and sometimes the instrument panel settings.
>>Wrong. That information doesn't depend on the T/O. The train probably has software which records speed and other data, and forensic investigation can determine the accident conditions<<
I assume that an event recorder would furnish that imformation. I meant to say from the T/O's first hand account. His own words would shed light on maybe why he couldn't slow the train for that curve. It will all come out after the investigation.
Bill "Newkirk"
This is a PURE GUESS on my part, but I'll bet that the on board diagnostics didn't measure a load shift. That's my guess as to what happened if the "bricks" weren't tied down on pallets like they do in elevator load testing ...
Even in NYCT, loads are relatively low in height and secured before movement. Scrap wheels are piled in a tower bolted toether 4 or 5 high, and loaded on a forklift pallet through side doors to similate crush loading when testing brakes and acceleration. Their loads don't ever exceed 4 feet and even that measurement may be too generous.
Yep, I had heard that even back in my days. And let's face it, even in the event of what happened here, you at least had a bulkhead behind your butt ... you had a CHANCE. Can't wait to hear what the justifications of the methodology HERE turn out to be ...
Can't wait to hear what the justifications of the methodology HERE turn out to be ...
The JFK AirTrain is intended to be a fully-automated system, with no operator on board. Telemetry is sent back to the operations center where there are (IIRC) a supervisor, a security manager, a power manager, and a number of customer service people. There are also roving customer service people who will ride the trains (but not operate) to provide passenger assistance. Here is a view of the control center:
The "cab" controls are there only to move the train in the event of a problem in the automated system, for yard moves, and for coupling/uncoupling. In manual mode speed is restricted and certain moves (for example, approaching another train to couple) have to be repeatedly confirmed to the propulsion system as "yes, I really want to do this". In automatic mode, operating speeds are allowed to be higher but various moves (like trains approaching each other on the same track) are inhibited.
The controls also include various circuit breakers for lighting, etc. in the car. The design is that the worst effect of tampering with any control will be to drop the train out of automatic control and stop it while waiting for a customer service agent to respond. Here is a better view of the car interior:
Well, looks like your previous message will be the place I plant this thought, and judging by the pictures you showed me a while ago, you're of the right age with the (ahem) "system" that you probably got to see these as well ...
Ya know how in "driver's ed" they'd show you these gory films of "death on the highway? Back when I was in school car, the motor instructors showed us MORGUE SLAB shots of what happened when you hit something, pictures of crushed trains, what was LEFT of the "guy in the cab" and the lecture on "what happens when you pass a fire my ass red" ... BELIEVE ME, you didn't chase timers, and you weren't stupid in the cab. EVER. Dunno about you, but that stuff LIVED with me right up to the very day when it was MY turn to be in a wreck. But those "training films" made me an outright PUTHY in the cab.
With all due respect to those who I have enjoyed the hell out of reading "working the timers" from (and I enjoyed it IMMENSELY) there was no WAY I was going to grow such baetzim in revenue service after what I had seen ... clearing to GREEN in front of me was just dandy and felt GOOD. :)
I'm willing to bet that motorpeople "losing religion" had EVERYTHING to do with the TA going "touchy feely" and no longer showing the RESULT of stupidity behind the handles. I'd bet we wouldn't HAVE WD's and speed violations if they showed recent hires what they showed US. But then again, you're ALSO old enough to remember that we didn't need no steenking speedos in our cab - we could tell *JUST* how we were doing on the SOUNDS of the trains back then.
So much is lost these days ... how CAN you tell if you're doing 10 or 15 or 30? How? Hell, we didn't even have to look at our AIR GAUGES back then ... half-standing, legs against our seat, we could FEEL how much we applied ... sorry for the diverge signal, I needed to do a battery run. :)
I apologize if my post implied the T/O's account wouldn't have been very helpful. It most certainly would have been.
But the T/O can still speak - through an autopsy, as part of the overall forensic investigation.
Isn't that personification? Since when a can a dead body speak??? Seance?
As they say in medical school anatomy class: "The Dead Teach the Living" (I forgot the original Latin phrase).
OMG!!! The T/O died?? Dammit bombardier, this is TOO far!!!
I'm sure the Bombardier folks are pretty traumatized by this as well. When I visited AirTrain in August, I was impressed by the experience of the people as well as their committment to safety. Regardless of how folks feel about Bombardier's build quality, etc. I am sure that the train would not have moved if there was any inkling that an incident like this would have happened. There's probably a lot of "what if..." soul-searching going on out there now.
I'd like to see what the results of their investigation are, and whether anything like this happened before, before jumping to any conclusions.
a decent and temperate comment. Mostly I am sad for the victim.
That car didn't seem to be in great shape, I think it is scrap metal already just sitting on top of the el.
I could see how he could ge ejected through the front window: when the cars are manually operated there is no seating provided, so the operator stands through all manouvers. In hindsight, that's actually dangerous initself.
BTW, one of the unique features of the Bombardier AirTrain cars is that they feature cantilevering axles. On each truck the two sets of axles move independantly of each other. The benefits for this feature are less screeching as well as less jolting for passengers as trains round the curves. BUT -- and it's a big one -- a major point brought to the attention of the guests of the JFK AirTrain Facilities tour I took last July was that to accommodate these features, the guidlines for track tolerances and gauging rail (measuring the distance between running rails) had to be much more stringent than standard rail car trucks. I'm no expert, but the accident that occurred today could in fact be related to this unique feature...
Interesting. I believe they're cheveron insulated, and this imparts a degree of raidiality to them.
No doubt, not BBD's design - GSI and Budd both had such designs years ago. GSI's design was an off shoot of the GSI-70, I think.
Most of what Bombardier sells to the US isn't their designs, they're designs they bought up from Pullman, Budd, GSI, etc. It's only been recently they've been designing their own US spec equipment, and frankly, I'm not impressed by any of it.
I'd find it surprising that a radial type truck would be more sensitive to track conditions. IMHO, the only truck that's that way is a poorly designed one!
UTDC designed the trucks twenty years ago or so. The original design may have been modified between then and the Mk 2 cars.
-Robert King
But you don't know what caused the problem up there, so your speculation is pointless.
And what credentials or knowledge do you bring in to be impressed or not with Bombardier's designs?
>>I could see how he could ge ejected through the front window<<
That theory about front window ejection was early speculation. The T/O's legs were pinned in the cab when the bricks slid forward. The front window was probably removed by Police and Fire rescue teams to gain access to the cab.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does the FRA or FTA invesigate this accident, even though the line hasn't opened and was in test stage ?
This mishap will set things back of course.
Bill "Newkirk"
Extensive investigation and testing will have to be done to eliminate systemic causes. The service' debut will be postponed, if necessary.
Does the FRA or FTA invesigate this accident, even though the line hasn't opened and was in test stage ?
I'd assume it's the NTSB.
I agree it will be the NTSB since that isn't FRA trackage. Or they have a complete exception from FRA rule. The FTA only is there to giveout money. Also I belive the Williamsburg Bridge thing was done by the NTSB. Another fact I would like present is that we always hear about there being investigations but we NEVER hear the results of them?????
Another fact I would like present is that we always hear about there being investigations but we NEVER hear the results of them?????
The results of investigations may not be as well-publicized in the media, but they ARE available. To use your example, the results of the Williamsburg investigation (which were largely responsible for a systemwide slowdown) are easily accessible.
Mark
Go to NTSB.GOV for accident investigation results
>>>Go to NTSB.GOV for accident investigation results <<<
News reports say NTSB will not be investigating because this was a testing accident rather than an accident on an operating transportation system. It looks like the only outside investigation would be a workplace safety investigation by OSHA.
Tom
I'm sure the PANYNJ's own people will look into it and report the results somewhere. I'm sure Bombardier will as well. I'm surprised that NTSB won't, but then again there's jurisdictional questions of authority because it isn't a "working railroad" as yet and no "public" was involved. Interesting situation for sure, but someone will surely investigate it simply on the basis of a fatality and the repercussions that creates. Also I'm sure there will be public doubts with respect to potential future safety issues that will need to be addressed. We'll just have to sit and wait for the answer as to what happened here.
This will be an interesting one to follow. From the photos i've seen, it's hard to believe it was fatal - but the reports I've heard say the person on board was crushed by a concrete block used as a weight simulator.
What could have caused this?
My gusses:
Excessive speed, as a function of testing or malfunction.
Misaligned track.
Heavy object on the track (though doubtful).
Load shifting.
Axle or truck failure in lead car. They look to be a Pioneer III derivative, and that design has a few rather interesting potential failure modes.
In any case, this is bad for Bombardier. I wonder if this is turning into the beginning of the end of their dominance of the railcar maket in the US? First Acela, then R-142, now this? Very bad.
It's very unfortunate that the person aboard died. I'm surprised that the weights weren't secured - a high speed curve could cause them to shift and hurt someone riding in the passenger area. If there was a proper cab and the driver was in it and the only person aboard, securing the weights wouldn't be as much of an issue. Also, if the load did shift on the curve, it might have been partially responsible for the derailment as you suggested.
I'm waiting for some word on the investigation(s) which are no doubt underway by now. It is going to be rather interesting to see what comes out because this is the first time a severe accident involving ICTS equipment has happened. These cars apparantly run well enough in Vancouver, but the TTC had derailment problems with their earlier version, which had the steerable trucks as well, on the tight curves of the loop at Kennedy station, if that's of any help.
With respect to Bombardier's railway equipment division and the U. S. market, the two just don't seem to mix. A real explanation why is something I'm curious to hear. It might be a good idea for them to pull out since I don't see how the could start producing good stuff down there let alone make any/many more sales in the first place given the record that's being established, unless they get a contract for the MBTA and similar people who have to take the lowest bid by law, by being the lowest bidder.
-Robert King
Are the MBTA Red Line Bombardier trains poor performers? I rode them for two years and liked them a lot. I wasn't aware of a lot of problems with them.
The R62's problems seemed to have been ironed out...
They're running fine, from what I've been hearing and the notable absence of bad news.
-Robert King
to start off, it is a damn shame that someone has died in this weird tragedy. i guess it was the guys time.
now, everyone blames Bombardier for all the crap thats been happening. yes there were cracks in the trucks of the Acela locomotives, yes the R-142 had hickups when it first came out (like it normally supposed to when it is new equipment, no matter who makes it, but you people are too hard headed, and judgemental to accept that)but now it last a long time in service, even longer than the so loved R-142A that gives everyone orgasms in here(except for the redbird fans who will not let go of them)My point is that to blame bombardier for every thing that happened in recent years is basically stupidity when you don't know why most of the stuff happened.
Someone in here said that this company doesn't know how to build light rails. apparently this person doesn't know that this Airtrain is of the same model that is used in Kuala Lumpur's (KL) light rail system. and since its debut, it has never caused a rancid problem.if it didn't cause problems there and it was so successful, why not use it abroad for something else? the same thing goes for the T-1 of the TTC. the same models are used in Turkey but instead they drive themselves via computer system. no problems there. the Same goes for the MBTA Cars. the next thing was the Widely used Sky Train that can befound in Detroit, Vancouver, And Torontor on the Scarborough RT line. that had hickups but came out successful. yes it had a derailment accident in Toronto and it wasn't Bombardier's fault. it was the TTC. their track bed was poorly built because of miscalculations in building it and the train derailed.
it wasn't their fault either when the Acela had problems in the beginning. it was Amtraks fault for not preparing for Acela Services.
Now these are facts what i am saying. these are reports of what happened after investigations. with what happened now it is a fact that most or some of you aren't railcar officials or engineers or work with the P.A. so you don't know what happened.so the best thing to do is just cool off sit back and find out causes. until then you can say what you want but, WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.
Mk 2 cars have been added to the Vancouver sky train - retroactively, too, to the older parts of the system which I wasn't expecting...
Well, I'd have to say the SRT derailments in Kennedy station were more the government of Ontario's fault than the TTC who were having UTDC stuff shoved at them from every direction. The Scarborough RT was originally supposed to be a high speed streetcar line, but the government leaned and had it changed to ICTS with a minimal amount of modification to Kennedy station. This meant that instead of installing switches for a proper subway train type terminal, the ICTS trains were being forced to turn around using the streetcar loop that had been constructed. The streetcar loop wasn't designed for ICTS cars and vice versa, hence problems even when the speed limit on that section was dropped from 10 kph to 5. By contrast, McCowan station which wasn't yet under construction when the change was forced was redesigned properly and there haven't been any problems there and it certainly didn't require the renovation Kennedy did.
-Robert King
2 words why Bombardier is getting orders after all their **IT.
Corporate Pensions.
I would like to what benfits the guy before Kailkow has from Bombardier. What about the last President of Amtrak is getting (Before gunn)???
There is no way in he** Bombardier can get all these orders on a fair bidding system.
PROVE TO ME THAT THERE WERN'T ANY PERSONAL BNENIFITS TO THE PEOPLE WHO SELECTED BOMBARDIER FOR THESE ORDERS!!!!!
There is no way in he** Bombardier can get all these orders on a fair bidding system.
PROVE TO ME THAT THERE WERN'T ANY PERSONAL BNENIFITS TO THE PEOPLE WHO SELECTED BOMBARDIER FOR THESE ORDERS!!!!!
It's a little early for the conspiracy theories, I think.
No personal benefits were necessarily involved, but there definitely were benefits that Bombardier offered that other bidders didn't in the cases of both Acela and JFK Airtrain. Bombardier tends to offer very attractive financing, not unlike the sleazy neighborhood car dealer touting the "bad credit? no credit? no problem!" policy.
Mark
Here is a Yahoo news photo:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020927/168/2c5v9.html
Bill "Newkirk"
I just theorized on a load shift being the culprit. That photo on Yahoo appears to show that the TRESTLE has collapsed. I wonder if that happened as a result of the crash or was the cause of it and it wasn't the train's fault at all? Going to be quite a bit of an investigation here from the looks of it.
The caption incorrectly ID's the train as a monorail.
Well to the average person that thing looks awfully similar the the monrail in disnyworld. Remeber we are railfans. The news media isn't.
Well to the average person that thing looks awfully similar the the monrail in disnyworld. Remeber we are railfans. The news media isn't.
For comparison, here's a shot of the Disneyworld monorail.
I'am not going really go looking for a exact match. If it is on single concrete pylons it is a monorail to geese. End of story.
I didn't post the links to Disneyworld monorails to contradict you. Au contraire, to non railfans they look quite similar.
The caption incorrectly ID's the train as a monorail.
Everyone pulls the story from the same wire(s), and the wire invariably will get some of the points wrong the first time, and then make corrections as they are uncovered. Sometimes, the corrected versions don't make it to your news outlet in time. This updated story still has some of the wire editor's comments intact, so you can see what I mean.
Mark
Apparently Bombarider doesn't know how 2 build light rail trains. If this didnt happen imagine the catastrophy that would of happened next month? I hope the Port Authority sues the hell out of Bombarider so they would have the same faith as the BRT after the Malborne Street wreck! I don't mean to be mean but this shouldn't of happened.
I said for years that they should have built a subway using NYCT rolling stock. Do what is tryed and true. They got a propriatory never tested system. Especially with the track record of Bombardier. Goto siemans which has a better reputation if you want light rail. But I hate light rail since everything is propriatory. If they are hell bent on light rail, pull out those dusty blueprints of the PCC cars.
To think that I was slowly giving Bombardier SOME respect ( see: They are called bombardier instead of bombsuckier), and now this?
It's really quite pointless to go pointing fingers and cursing Bombardier (or the PA, or whoever) when the investigation has just begun.
And I think it's pretty safe to assume that most of you posting on this thread don't have any professiona connection to the project other than your cameras.
Do you think you could withhold judgment until some real facts come out?
(a polite way of saying, "knock it off until you actually know something") :0)
Awww, but I haven't Bombardier bashed for quite a while... I guess you're right. But if this is a result of another Bombarfier screw up, will it be okay for me to point fingers?
This is Subtalk - (almost) anything goes.
Almost - defined by David Pirmann
Tell us then when they do. Mark my words, this board will never hear the results of the investigaion. Anyway I'am not paying $70 for a copy of it. Also I can't post it on this board due to copyright garbadge.
Mark my words, this board will never hear the results of the investigaion.
Like we never heard the results of this one?
RAR9603.htm and RAR9603.pdf
Mark
Sure enough, the URLs you posted are not found.
Sure enough, the URLs you posted are not found.
They both work for me. Maybe it is time to start with the conspiracy theories?
Mark
They worked for me.
OK, now they work for me. Must have been a very tempoary glitch.
Sure enough, the URLs you posted are not found.
Sorry, they both work perfectly for me. You do have Adobe Acrobat reader installed on your system, right? And you did flush your browser cache?
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
Sure enough, you've got no clue what you're doing.
-Hank
Actually, one hudgement can be made, without degrees, licensure etc. SF Muni uses sandbags to simulate riders. They are less lethal in such a wreck.
That might have been a better choice - but a sandbag can still slide...
Stack 'em up, they're just as dangerous. It's just easier to extricate the victim from underneath.
-Hank
>>> Stack 'em up, they're just as dangerous. It's just easier to extricate the victim from underneath <<<
I doubt that it is used, but the safest way would be tethered sandbags that would tear and allow the sand to escape before the tether failed if forces were so abnormally high as would occur in a crash.
Tom
For all the problems Bombardier has been involved in, there's at least been some evidence however flimsy before ... may I suggest that we WAIT until there's been a proper investigation first? If you looked at the picture that Bill Newkirk linked to from Yahoo, it's quite clear that the trackway under the Airtrain has collapsed. Question is did that happen before or after the wreck?
Without knowing, let's not leap to conclusions until we do know ...
I ahven't leapt to any conclusions... I just responded to this thread knowing that a bombardier product was involved in an incedent, and leapt at the opportunity to slap around bombardier.
Definitely gotta cut ya some slack there with my apologies for whizzing on your parade. I know at some point Senator Bruno probably signed off on it too. I be good. :)
This Anna Nicole Smith show is disgusting... just hoping that my parents don't come into the room.
Heh. That show is *SO* trashy, it even embarasses people in Rensselaer county! Shame on you. :)
I wonder if she watches herself, and if she can find a GOOD lawyer who can sue the pants off her current agent. One episode was all I needed to see to know it was a bad idea to put a drunk/drugged/addled fat broad on TV.
-Hank
Heh. That show is REALLY impressively bad. No wonder even FOX didn't want it. :)
This Anna Nicole Smith show is disgusting... just hoping that my parents don't come into the room.
Heh heh, try watching Berman & Berman some time.
Maybe I should.... :)
I would love to slap Bombarider around with an aluminum bat a few times. But Selkirk made a damn good point. How did the viaduct collapse? Was it the weight of the bricks because if so then we can kiss AirTrain goodbye before it even ran. And if it collapsed before the ntrain came through then Bombarider has the same faith as BRT!
How many million down the Toliet that could have otherwise gone to FTA to give to NYC for SAS or atleast 7 to jacob ctr.
I would say over 1 billion dollars went to the construction of Airtrain.
Was it the weight of the bricks because if so then we can kiss AirTrain goodbye before it even ran.
Well, not necessarily, but
And if it collapsed before the ntrain came through then Bombarider has the same faith as BRT!
Isn't that exactly what most people around here think should have been done the first time around anyway?
Mark
Now they even want to get rid of aluminum bats in NYC!!
Stupid. I heard that crap on 1010 WINS yesterday and they say that in one instance, it severely hurt a kid. Oh yeah, and regular wooden bats can't do the same thing!
They can't. Read the very sound science behind it.
-Hank
The danger with aluminum bats is largely with potential injury to the pitcher, since a batted ball leaves an aluminum bat faster than it leaves a wood bat.
>>Selkirk made a damn good point. How did the viaduct collapse?<<
The viaduct didn't collapse. The concrete retaining wall did. One scene the Yahoo picture didn't show, that the TV news did, was that car #102 totally derailed and straddled the retaining wall which inturn collapsed. There were sections of retaining wall that were totally ripped off and fell to the ground below.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's not a retaining wall. It's a set of noise barriers, not designed to stop a vehicle.
Miami Metrorail operated for years on an elevated track similar in appearance to Airtrain without any barrier at all on the guideway. Then concrete panels were installed on either side to block noise coming from the wheels. They are effective for that. If a train were to ever derail at high speed, the noise barriers would not stop it from tumbling to the street.
It's not clear. The non-structural soundwall is what has collapsed, not the trackway itself. And before more folks decide to jump on the 'The train could have fallen' bandwagon, a similar accident on the NYCT system can occur, and a more serious wreck occured in the pre-BoT days.
-Hank
Or better yet, put the PCC's from NJ Transit back into service.....
Uhh, try again. Does NYCT look like it has the same rolling stock for everything? ALL subways ARE proprietary. There are only two systems in the world with the exact same rolling stock. Most light rail systems AREN'T proprietary. Most Light rail TA's go a manufacturer and pick what model they want and they are finished.
If they used PCC type cars, they probably wouldn't have derailed. Better yet they should have built the line so that NYCTA rolling stock could be used which IS TRIED AND TRUE!! At the rate the "Airtrain" is going, there will be another "Malbone St." wreck.
#3 West End Jeff
Such a short post, with so much disinformation.
The exact same system is in use in Kuala Lumpur, and a similar system has been in operation in Vancouver, BC for nearly 20 years. Just about every system on the AirTrain line has been used elsewhere. So do a bit of research before you spout off a bunch of nonsensical crap.
-Hank
The exact same system is in use in Kuala Lumpur, and a similar system has been in operation in Vancouver, BC for nearly 20 years.
Neither system uses cars of the same dimensions and weight distribution as those for AirTrain.
The exact same system is in use in Kuala Lumpur, and a similar system has been in operation in Vancouver, BC for nearly 20 years.
Baumann: Neither system uses cars of the same dimensions and weight distribution as those for AirTrain.
Even so, that does not make BuildMoreLines' post any more reasoned.
So the change is what from these systems? A different size passenger car? Still doesn't sound unproven to me. The highway's the same, the gas is the same, the traffic rules are the same.
-Hank
So the change is what from these systems? A different size passenger car? Still doesn't sound unproven to me. The highway's the same, the gas is the same, the traffic rules are the same.
Things that are not the same are different.
Much of the initial speculation has centered around shifting weights as a possible cause for the derailment. The different geometry of the car certainly affects the center of mass for these cars. The AirTrain cars are slightly wider, longer and taller than those of the systems you cited, from what I can tell. This would indicate that they had a slightly greater tendency to derail than the others. Were these differences taken into account in the ride profile and control software? I don't know, but I'm unwilling to accept the argument that it works elsewhere for equipment that may differ substanially in a critical aspect.
BTW, I would not certify any equipment as safe for operation if such could be derailed by a shift in its live load.
"Much of the initial speculation has centered around shifting weights as a possible cause for the derailment."
But this IS speculation, and not really supported by some basic physics calculations. Unless the train was going way faster than the 25 mph stated in the papers, or the floor was greased, it seems very unlikely that the load could have shifted. The friction holding it in place should have exceeded the inertia resulting from going around a curve.
Frictional force should have been about 0.3 g's, while sideways acceleration should be (speed squared / radius), with a reduction by any gradient by which the curve was banked. It's hard to imagine this latter number exceeding 0.3. And even if it did, if the conrete blocks were uniformly distributed over the floor, they wouldn't slide very far or gain much sideways speed. Unlike the sloshing milk examples, far more force is required to get them to actually move up over each other.
"slightly wider, longer and taller"
Amtrak double-deckers are much taller than AirTrain cars. They do not derail due to their weight distribution. So height isn't everything.
The R44,46,68 cars are longer than the R32. Are you aware of more frequent derailments as a result?
How would a wider car tend to derail?
Amtrak double-deckers are much taller than AirTrain cars. They do not derail due to their weight distribution. So height isn't everything.
They also do not negotiate as tight curves and are not propelled by their trucks like the AirTrain. The gentler curves mean that they are not likely to be subject to the same centripetal force. The fact that they the double decked cars are pulled by a locamotive means there is usually a restoring force keeping a truck on the tracks.
The R44,46,68 cars are longer than the R32. Are you aware of more frequent derailments as a result?
These conventional cars weigh about 85,000 lbs and have most of their weight concentrated in the trucks. The AirTrain weighs about 53,000 lbs with most of this weight difference due to lighter trucks - thanks to the linear induction motors. This means that the live load is a much higher percentage of a loaded car's weight and the car will have a higher center of mass. This last item would make the car less stable.
How would a wider car tend to derail?
It would not if the weight in the car were evenly distributed. However, the speculation is that it shifted to the outside of while going round a curve. The extra 6+" over Vancouver's SkyTrain would concentrate more weight on the outer wheels and tend to lift the inner wheel because of the outward force and the fact that the cm was above the wheels. This effect would be greater than if the weight were 6" closer to the car centerline. N.B. both systems use standard rail gauge.
Again, let me state that I'm perfectly content to wait the year or so before the NTSB releases its report. I would qualify everything as speculation. However, are there mechanisms that could cause a derailment - of course. The NTSB will determine whether or not they are applicable in this case.
OK. Reasonable points. Fair enough.
Why stop there? Why not kill every bombardier executive? In fact, let's declare war on Canada. Look - you don't know what happened yet and neither does Bombardier or the NTSB. Why not wait until the facts are known before you start any childish tirades.
Amen, Train Dude!
Hey, Iraq comes first.
Screw Irak, betcha scrub can't even find it on the map, he's as likely to send the missiles to canada as he his to Irak, so why not just add them to our little list too? Heck, for the past several years canada, under the guise of this 'Bombardier' terrorist outfit has been conducting state sponsored terrorism against our rail infrastructure. First the Comet IIIs and IVs, sucky, but not horrible. Then came the R-110A and B, still good enough to land them a piece of the R-142/143 contract. After that and the Acela contract, they were able to unleash their forces of evil. They have waged holy war against our largely monolingual society, attempting to get things such as mayonnese on our burgers. We must start a crusade (Hey at least these guys won't take mortal offense at the word crusade, perfect for our scrub) against the evil dooers to the north, for they... ah screw it, Bush the second is a canadian agent, sent here to flip us all over and prepare us for a royal canadian arche bumpin. Remember that budget surplus that we had? You remember, the 500 bucks that got absorbed by your bills (If you're lucky and you lived in texas, you can say that enron ate your tax rebate!). A while back I wondered where all that money went, and then it hit me, of course, THE RICH, the same idiots who are now helping bush flip us over for the RCAR. I think the supreme court did a poor job choosing our president for us, I think we need another regime change, they clearly chose too light a president this time, he;s barely holding up to 1 billion frequnet orbital miles, never mind that when the supreme court appointed him, he was garunteed to last at least 2.5 billion miles.
as i correct you in your post:
-The R-110A is Kawasaki's discombobulation. but it was a test train so it wouldn't really count. the R-110B is Bombardier's discombobulation but like the R-110A it also doesn't count because it is a test train .
Acela's problems, besides the cracked trucks in the Electric and Diesel Locomotives, were Amtrak's neglegence and Failures to prepare for the High Speed Sets. Most of Bombardier's rail vehicles aren't a problem. most of them in this country do way better than the other brands.
And you should lay off the Canadians. they aren't the fault of your misery.
To be fair, he's railing against that special sprecial breed of Canadians, Le Quebecois. Vive Le Quebecois, down with the frogs...:0)
Nature hates a vacuum so I guess we had to figure as one dullard leaves another will take his place. By the way, "Lightning" , it's spelled S H R U B.
Lets take the Bombardier executives and lock'em in a jail cell. Then tell'em they they aren't getting out till they pick-up that assembler book and debug the software that runs their eqipment.
They're French, what more evidence do you need?
bitter, misserable......i would say you sound like an old person but i don't know you and how old you are.
I'm part of the new generation who are carrying on the long standing tradition of detesting the French.
then you've got a problem.
Not really. The french hate us until the Germans invade them, in which case they want to be ourbest friends....
the french hate everybody. there no point in hating back because it doesn't get you know where. also this is a Canadian Issue. the French will hate you more if you mix them up with Canadians.
then you've got a problem. Plus you are insulting the French because you are referring to Canadians as French, knowing where you are coming from.
UMM...that's called bigot.
Peace,
ANDEE
The French are white Europeans, in this day and age they are a fair target. Besides, just like people from New Jersey have to hate people from New York, Americans have to hate the French and vice versa.
This photo of Jersey Mike is for age estimation only, not for retaliation-related identification. He's the older of the two people walking toward the photographer.
>>> He's the older of the two people walking toward the photographer. <<<
You mean the guy who looks like he is about to be mugged. :-)
Tom
NTSB isn't investigating.
Er- Perhaps you are not aware of this but the NTSB reversed itself almost immediately. They had an investigator on the scene Saturday AM - before you posted your response..... The NTSB rarely elects not to investigate if there are employee fatalities involved.
The NTSB has some superb talent, and they bring an unbiased mindset. They do not regulate, but rather report and recommend to the appropriate agencies.
A friend of mine is their chief meteorologist; he's mainly involved in airline accidents, but of course the weather can affect road & rail as well.
"...of course the weather can affect road & rail as well."
Now wait a minute...didn't a certain occasional "Transit & Weather Together" meteorologist for a certain local news station do an Amtrak commercial airing on said station saying the train was weatherproof? :-)
David
heheheh
Weather affects railroads and Amtrak in different ways to airlines. Operationally, railroads are indeed weatherproof. However, in non-cab signal territory, snow drifts can cause misaligned switches, fogs can cause missed signals. Amtrak has spent money (i.e. cab signals and points heaters) to mitigate all that. Not every railroad has that kind of money.
AEM7
Weather also affects NYCT trains in a rather unusual way. One would expect that the stopping distance for emergency brakes should be less than that for full service brakes, all other conditions being equal. This is not true for certain weather conditions. Stopping distances for emergency braking can be up to 25% longer than those for full service brakes for wet rails.
Stopping distances for emergency braking can be up to 25% longer than those for full service brakes for wet rails.
I was always told (by train operators) that wet rails aren't actually the most difficult braking conditions. If it is raining, the rail condition isn't usually that bad -- some 20% more braking distance may be needed, but not bad enough for trains to just glide. Train operators tell me that they hate three things: (1) greasy rails or soapy rails, where you just glide -- or icy rails that is clogged up so you can't get any traction and can't melt the ice with the sand mixture they use. (2) In the leaf-fall season, after half-dry leaves fall onto the rails and get run over by a heavy freight to form a gluey paste sticking to the rails. (3) When running the first train of the morning on a humid but not raining day, when the rails are dewed up like there's no tomorrow, when there is just enough water to form a thin film around the wheel and causes it to spin.
So isn't the emergency brake smart enough to detect wet rails and use wheelspin control? A lot of T/O make the mistake of pumping the brakes if the wheelspin indicator goes on. Of course, the automatic system takes care of that. If you pump the brakes, it makes the stopping distance longer.
Anyone else knows to the contrary should post -- what I've been told by T/Os may not be universally applicable.
AEM7
What is a 'wheelspin indicator?' Do not misunderstand me...I'm completely familiar with electro/pneumatic brakes as well as all R142 systems applied, in existence but shut off and potential systems that have yet to be applied and exploited. Subway cars do not have antilock braking or traction control...rudementary engagement could be software applied. R142 trainsets do have Doppler Radar speedometers but they are totally independent of the trainline system.
Ideally, antilock and Doppler should be combined to tell the system that trainset is in motion but braking is ineffective. Worst condition: wet leaves upon trackage as materiel under pressure acts as a lubricating gel. Last year, VakTrak braked upon leaves, slid over two hundred yards befor locked wheels provided braking....all wheels had major flats which had to be trued in the wheel shop at 239th....I was there.
My last company car, a 2001 Olds Alero, had advanced traction control along with indication for 'wheelspin' and antilock braking. Also system that detected unbalance like in a low tire pressure. perhaps the R180 may have these systems integrated. CI Peter
What is a 'wheelspin indicator?'... Subway cars do not have antilock braking or traction control
I see. My teeth was cut on the 1988-model BREL class 158's which had a wheelspin control system. The reason they had a wheelspin control is because they had disc brakes instead of tread brakes (to get the 9%g maximum braking rate) and those spin like hell because if foreign materialsky gets onto the wheel tread, there are no brake blocks to clean it off. The 158's had wheelslip control but no wheelspin control, so when applying power you still had to be careful not to spin the wheels.
Looks like NYCTA is behind the state-of-practice on their traction control packages. Is there any reason for this? Are the TA just reluctant to tamper with a tried-and-tested braking system? Do the R-142's have tread or disc brakes, or both? Amfleets have both -- so there is another North American example of the application. MBTA 01800 series are still tread brakes, I think. (But they are tread and dynamic, while the BREL 158's did not have dynamic brakes since they were hydraulic).
Vaktrak...
What is VakTrak?
AEM7
What is VakTrak?
The magical jet-engine-in-reverse vacuum cleaner train that sucks up all the litter in the subway, plus any stray rats and drunks that get in its way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think we could use one of those in Sea Cliff! :-0
NYCTA does use dynamic braking - down to 10 mph, where the air brakes take over.
NYCTA does use dynamic braking - down to 10 mph, where the air brakes take over.
NYCTA emergency brakes are strictly friction - no dynamic braking.
Sorry, yes, you're right.
The dynamic brake is one used in regular operation of the train.
NYCT dynamic brake is designed to fade at between 5 & 7 MPH on all equipment other than the new-tech cars. I'm not sure what the operational range is on the R-142/R-142A/R-143.
Thank you for your info. The less work the air brake has to do, the longer the brake shoes (using the term loosely) last
The reason for the cut-off is because the braking rate on dynamic brakes decreases as the speed of the train decreases. Since electromagnetic retarding force is proportional to rate of change of field, if the wheel is rotating at a lower speed, then the retarding force is also proportionally less. Technically, you can never stop a train entirely with dynamic brakes... instead the speed would tend towards an asymptote at zero.
I don't know how the AC motors do as dynamic brakes though. They might have a totally different characteristic, in which case I don't know how they are effective at low speeds compared to high speeds. Does anyone feel like explaining how dynamic brakes on an AC traction truck works?
AEM7
Thank you for illuminating this.
About the same, less rotation of the "generator" results in weakening current and eventually nada, zippo, nugga. But it sure is a neat way to use a motor for braking. But eventually, diminishing returns drops out ...
But an asynchornious AC motor would generate a variable frequency AC waveform, as it is slowing down. Do you just pipe the damn thing to a resistor grid and never mind the fact that it's not a steady current? How do you control the braking? You can't use any of the shunting techniques that you do in a DC motor...
AEM7
Sure you do ... a purely resistive load behaves the same at AC or DC. AC adds reactance (which is AC resistance) but what you have as the wheels keep turning at a lower speed is less CURRENT, less wattage and eventually not enough to present sufficient load to keep the gears from turning. I'm oversimplfying here, but that's the deal. Less auspuf (output) means less stopping power until you hit nothing worthwhile being "generated" ... then you need your Buster Brown shoes. :)
Bottom line, it's a matter of watts for tots ...
Initially, propulsion package matches async with opposite like dynamic brakes in drill or saw.
Dynamic Braking AC motor packages 101: Everyone knows how dynamic braking works in Redbirds...the three acceleration points actually go through thirty five steps in the group box....deccelleration is sensed by dynamic braking DC current generation. application of pneumatic braking as applied and sensed bvy a transducer...trainset cuts off dynamic braking when gfenerated current is below 100 Amps.
R142s are different: every axle with a motor has tach feedback and every trailer truck axle has a tach response. What the system is supposed to do is sence acceleration and braking...I only operate in static conditions. Nothing works correctly. CI Peter
You're right...dynamic braking can never work down to 0 MPH.
However, you can get pretty close. All-electric PCC cars
with extended range braking work down to 1-2 MPH. What determines
the braking torque on a DC motor is the armature current times
the field strength. The current is the counter-EMF divided by
the total circuit resistance, which includes the armature and
field windings, wiring, and the braking load resistance. The
latter is varied to obtain the desired rate. At low speeds, the
resistance is cut out completely. The limiting point at which
the motors will fail to generate enough EMF to create the current
needed to satisfy the braking call is determined by those other,
fixed, "parasitic" resistances.
Trouble is, as speed decreases, the sensitivity to minute changes
in load resistance increases, making the system unstable (not
in the classic control systems sense). That's why many of
the aforementioned PCC cars develop low speed plugging. Unless
the control system is kept in perfect calibration, some overshoot
will occur. The standard TA design opts for a higher blend point
speed, about 5 MPH.
Dynamic braking 3-phase AC motors, well, that's a long story.
You can "plug" them by connecting the 3 wires (assuming delta-
connected) to each other through resistance. This is used
in some industrial motor controls but doesn't produce a constant
brake rate. I believe the approach taken on the new tech trains
is to synchronously 3-phase rectify the motor (acting as an
alternator) into the load resistance or receptive third rail
in regen mode.
R142 Bombardier trainsets and R142A Kawasaki trainsets utilise a tread brake unit for each wheel which engages one tread brake shoe for each wheel. I had continuous arguements with a CTA/CMT 'Car Inspector' that just could not understand the concept of the TBU braking package. The system is totally pneumatic and probably engaged at the 7 to 8 mph speed under the dynamic braking as the TrainDude has suggested. I can make many adjustments to the dynamic braking package of the Redbirds...it is part of the daily 180th Street inspection process...but cannot change anything in the R142.
TBUs are pnuematic in nature and have no direct electrical response to the car or trainset. Truck control units (TCUs) have sensors which communicate with the system about the operation of TBUs but often generate more useless and undefined information that what is needed. These are TA utilised Wabco systems .
VakTrak is a German manufactured track vacuuming system...two were purchased by TA. The traction engine is a diesel electric computer controlled system which receives tachometer feedback similar to the R142 and has no traction control. When the t/o applies excessive braking (like upon leaf contaminated tracks, the wheels will lock up
and flat upon dry surfaces. The traction engine is built like a giant eight wheel drive vehicle...a transfer case connects the fore and aft trucks via drive shafts which must be disconnected in the wheel truing process....and are hard as hell to reconnect.
Fall Season is a season of disaster for the TA. As leaves fall from trees, some land upon steel trackage. Under hundreds of tons of tread pressure, leaves turn into a lubricant that prevent wheel adhesion. We have trainsets specifically modified to spray some kind of glop upon the tracks to wash off the crud...'Slime trains.'
NYCTA bought a 'bill of goods' with these trainsets along with PANY Airtrain. Chances are that my career in Transit will be directly reengineering the defects. Thirty years....I'll be 78. CI Peter
VakTrak is French, not German.
David
Parts were air shipped from Deutschlund when axle sensors failed and computer control system dumped because it could not read speed. Trainset sent to CI with parts....CI was unable to install parts...trainset towed to Pennsylvania for axle replacement. VakTrak is like John Deere tractors.....many mixed foreign parts that cannot be installed without special equipment. CI Peter
Boy, you've got that right about Deere tractors ... and besides funky parts and funky fasteners, you need a geuine John Deere PIT to be able to get stuff on the underside off. Yeah, they're nasty enough to make trainsets. :)
Which is why just dumping the train can be a really bad idea in some circumstances ... sometimes a full serv is best. Once you slide though, you're done ...
Don't mess with Uncle Todd ... he can make a Joe Btsflk cloud sit over your house for days ya know. :)
The NTSB has some superb talent, and they bring an unbiased mindset. They do not regulate, but rather report and recommend to the appropriate agencies.
I'd say that it's pointless to speculate over what might have caused this crash, pending the NTSB report. Who knows, they might uncover a cause that no one's even guessed yet.
That *is* what they do best. And since they're uninvolved, they don't care who or what is at fault. I'd be inclined to believe their results. But we may not know them for almost a year unless something is EXTREMELY obvious ...
Well, if you hope Bombardier burns in hell, it should be noted that Hades already has a candle lit for them because of their shabby workmanship on the 142's ;)
We are already in hell burning. including everyone on this post board. too late for that comment.
Not to worry, they've already been sentenced to Plattsburgh. :)
i have just found out that the guy who died was a bombardier employee. you may have known this already but i am just saying it just in case you don't know
Yes indeed ... lived in Jamaica too ... hope they get to the bottom of what happened so that it doesn't happen again. :(
they will. it will just take time. Gee, i hope you are not like everyone in this post who jumps to conclusions. you are entitled to be anyway.
While I admit that I jumped to a conclusion that appears to be incorrect when I saw one photo that showed that part of the track structure dropped (it caused me to think THAT might have been the cause) rest assured that I *know* that in many other places, Bombardier has quite a good reputation. I also live upstate and have a feel for where some of the problems come from (that the trainsets are NOT being built in Thunder Bay where there's folks who KNOW how to do that) ...
But yes, given the tragedy here, I would like to someday know what happened. I'm willing to wait for PROFESSIONALS to figure it out. :)
Bombardier may end up only being at fault for the concrete blocks being unsecured in the car, leading to DeBorgh's death. The train itself may have fallen victim to a problem in the design/construction of the elevated structure and trackbed, which wouldn't be Bombardier's fault but the fault of the contractor, whose name, AFAIK, hasn't come up yet in any of the stories on the accident.
The scary part for the project is if it turns out that whoever was in charge of the construction was "cutting corners" by using substandard steel or concrete, or was unknowingly supplied substandard materials during the project by subcontractors. Then PANYNJ is faced with the task of inspecting, and possibly having to rebuild, every single inch of AirTrain to meet standards. That would be a boodoggle of epic propotions, and could end up with indictments down the line for those involved.
The Daily News article reports that Slattery Skanska, whoever they are, built the tracks. Their spokesman was available for comment.
Not available, I assume you mean.
That answers part of the question, though if the trackbed collapsed, Slattery Skanska may have even less culpability than Bombardier.
"Not available, I assume you mean."
No, he WAS available.
OK, I read the Post's story on the accident and saw the mention -- apparently, the loose blocks in the car info came from him, at least for the Post's story.
I thought when you didn't add what he said after saying he was available that it was a typo and the "not" was missing. Of course, when you assume...
As it is bugging me about the structure i would wonder if it was the structure and not the cars at all. the reason why i am putting it together because # 1 the media says that the cars failed to negotiate a bend in the tracks.... could there have been a measurement snafu? #2 those cars manufacuured are very reliable knowing from what i heard about them in KL where they are used. then maybe it is the cars. but they said they had something similar happened months ago.
As it is bugging me about the structure i would wonder if it was the structure and not the cars at all. the reason why i am putting it together because # 1 the media says that the cars failed to negotiate a bend in the tracks.... could there have been a measurement snafu? #2 those cars manufacuured are very reliable knowing from what i heard about them in KL where they are used. then maybe it is the cars. but they said they had something similar happened months ago.
Yep ... there's plenty to be investigated here and I kinda regret that NTSB doesn't feel they have the authority or mandate to do so. Bear in mind that I'm really QUIET neutral about Bombardier - I *know* from experience in other cities and discussing equipment with transit employees who KNOW what they're working with in these other places that Bombardier DOES make decent railcars unless the "customer" is stupid and insists on bad choices. Manufacturers build to spec.
Question becomes if the "concrete slabs" are an appropriate method of testing, probably not. Who wrote the test specifications and decided that such was an appropriate means. I know from elevator maintenance (Millar, Otis, and Westinghouse) that it's normal to test elevators with blocks of LEAD or bricks (but then the displacements are vertical) ... there are just so MANY angles at play here (clearly the results dictate that the concrete testing method used here will be abandoned in favor of something safer in the future, that's a no-brainer) and if there's questions about the overall construction and mechanical failures, this too is serious stuff.
Queens District Attorney is investigating (and of course, we KNOW a politician always has the edge on engineers) ... damn ... wish NTSB, OSHA or someone with some accredited expertise were doing this, HOPEFULLY PANYNJ has such folks, I'm sure they DO) and we'll get an honest evaluation of just what happened here.
My fear though is that the Daily Nukes has already Malbone'd the Airtrain and they might as well just tear it down ...
Well, PANYNJ definitely faces an uphill PR battle to show the public the strcutre's safe, and they'll have to decide which direction they wsnt to go (or are led by the direction of the coverage).
If the public focus is on the railcars themselves, compaired to the heavier (and presumably safer) 60-footers NYCTA uses, then they'll have to prove that the Bombardier cars are safe or add safety improvements to the current cars (like the front grilling on the Slant-40s), or in the worst possible case, order all-new heavier railcars (if the structure can handle 'em). But if the fear turns out to be "Railcars of death plunging off elevated structures onto the Van Wyck" because the elevated line itself is deemed to be the problem, then PANYNJ will have to shore up the structure so the public is calmed down about that disaster scenario.
Yep ... and you've cut directly to the crux of my own biscuit here ... determinations made without investigation. THAT is why I'm faulting the press for drawing conclusions because it's deadline. A *PROPER* report AT THIS TIME would have been something along the lines of "terrible wreck, innocent employee killed by mishap" ... that's *IT* ...
Instead, the Daily Gnus has already decided, tried and convicted without a SHRED of evidence. This is the dangerous, slippery slope that these so-called journalists have created, becoming prosecutor, judge and jury for something for which there ARE NO ANSWERS for as yet. Now stop and think for a moment if that same "judgement" may have been applied to other stories ranging from "who exactly are the terrorists" to all the other even more important issues handled by the media and delivered to the unsuspecting on a pupu platter ... THIS is what I have a problem with.
Step back, take a breath and see my point (not you in particular, but anyone who reads this) that the job of the "media" is to REPORT, NOT JUDGE ... Daily News already sentenced ... huh? When we HAVE the facts and the details, then and ONLY then are opinions warranted. Geez, I just realized I'm LECTURING. Ed Morrow would be burning up his coffin twirling over this. :)
Just so folks understand having read me over the past few years here, the fourth and fifth estates (print and electronic media) has an ESSENTIAL role in governance ... "freedom of the press" has nothing to do with reporting Tom Cruise, the purpose of the media and the freedoms granted to it under the first amendment of the Constitution exists as a "check and balance" on our GOVERNMENT ... if the MEDIA can't be trusted, the fabric of our very society has been tattered. That's the reason I'm so dogmatic about all this ... the MEDIA shouldnt' be a cheap 'ho ... and sadly, that 'ho has a KICKSTAND. :(
>>The scary part for the project is if it turns out that whoever was in charge of the construction was "cutting corners" by using substandard steel or concrete, or was unknowingly supplied substandard materials during the project by subcontractors. Then PANYNJ is faced with the task of inspecting, and possibly having to rebuild, every single inch of AirTrain to meet standards. That would be a boodoggle of epic propotions, and could end up with indictments down the line for those involved.<<
In my opinion, if a train can partially destroy a train viaduct then either that is a heavy ass train or someone obviously cut a few corners in construction which eventually resulted in a death of a person. Since Bombardier has been known to build faulty equipment(The R142, the R62A and it's most recent mass failure the Acela express) the fact that the train itself suffered some damage wasn't the real shock, more of the casualty itself which can cause the indictments. Since its day 2 of the investigation it wouldn't be smart to jump the gun, but I wont be suprised if this incident results in a Overhaul of all Bombardier equipment.
im just shocked at how the walls of the bridge crumbled like paper mache. jeez, it gets me more reluctant to step on a bombadier. i say instead of fixing the cars, we add in redbirds to the line. they're a little old, but they get the job done more reliably. (i think salaam will agree on this one)
--jonathan c
Well Besides that, I think they should burn in Hell for not building the Acela to have High Performance.
-AcelaExpress2005
I read at another Forums that it would have beeb better to build Airtrain as a Monorail. Does anyone agree with that claim?
"Better" is a term that leads to "depends on." I don't think it matters one way or the other. You can build a monorail that works well, or you can build a conventional track bound train that works well, or you can build a rubber-tired bus on a guideway that works well.
CBS Newsradio88 reported that there was an incident between an HBLR LRV and a car and that service was suspended between Newport and Harsimus Cove, anybody have details?
wayne
Greetings, all...
First of all, my first week of classes at Drexel went well. The first week is always the best part of any school year, as it's the one time of the year when you know you haven't screwed up yet. We've already been given a small design project in studio, which will involve me heading over to Fairmount Park this weekend to scope out a site.
I was originally planning to attend both the Autumn in New York thing at Branford tomorrow as well as the Hoboken Transit Festival on Sunday. But since I need to spend a few hours in Fairmount Park sometime this weekend, I'll need to nix one of those activities from my calendar. Heading up to the NYC area two days in a row wasn't really my cup of tea, anyway. Since I've already made plans to be at Branford on October 13th, I've decided to skip the Autumn in New York thing and attend the Hoboken Festival on Sunday. I'll probably go to mass that morning in Morningside Heights (at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine) before heading over, and then I'm hoping to be back in Philly by 6:30 PM for a meeting over at UPenn.
My question: Since I'll be running on a rather tight schedule, I'd rather not have to plan my activities around the NJT timetable. So I'll probably drive up to northern New Jersey and park near a PATH station, and use that (and the NYC subway) to get around. Is there ample parking near the Hoboken Terminal? If so, how do I get there from the New Jersey Turnpike? If not, which PATH station would have ample parking on a Sunday? I don't mind paying a few dollars for it if I have to. Again, I'll need directions from the New Jersey Turnpike.
Sorry I'll miss the gang on Saturday, but I hope to catch you all either on Sunday in Hoboken or on October 13th back at Branford. Have fun.
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
You want to park a car in Hoboken?
LOL. ROTFL.
If you're driving from Philly, I suggest you try out the HBLR. There's a nice, big parking lot at the Liberty State Park station. Take the Newark Bay Extension and get off at Exit 14B or 14C. The HBLR is supposed to start operating right into Hoboken Terminal that day.
Or you could try parking around Newport/Pavonia and take either HBLR or PATH.
To drive into Hoboken or the Newport/Pavonia area, take the Newark Bay Extention all the way to the end. It dumps you off onto the city streets in Jersey City a couple of blocks short of the Holland Tunnel entrance. Turn left at Marin Blvd. (just before the toll barriers) to go North into Hoboken past the train yard and then right toward the Terminal and the Hudson River. If you would rather park in Jersey City, I suggest you turn left onto Marin Blvd but make a right turn from Marin at 18th Street, just before the south edge of the train yard, and follow 18th Street east toward the river. 18th Street curves around to the right and runs into Washington Blvd., which will take you to Newport/Pavonia.
You want to park a car in Hoboken?
LOL. ROTFL.
Why is that so funny? Is parking in Hoboken that scarce on a Sunday? I lived in Chicago for nine years. If there's an empty spot, I'll find it. Is Hoboken that dangerous of an area, even with all the people there for the festival? My car is a piece of shit anyway; it's not like I'm driving a Lexus around.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Parking is always scarce in Hoboken.
AFAIK, there is no danger.
There is a big Kinney parking deck just next to the Pavonia PATH station. Always has space.
John
I believe Harrison has the cheapest parking of any location directly on the PATH. It may even be free.
How convenient is that to the NJ Turnpike, and how would I get there?
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Off I-280, close to I-280's intersection with the Turnpike at NJT's exit 15W. Take a look at
http://www.panynj.gov/path/pathmaplinks2.html#
for a closeup map, and then feed Harrison, NJ into http://www.mapquest.com/ for a bigger picture.
your better off at liberty state park easy parking and it "may" be a free ride to hobeken(exit 14c off the turnpike)
Dave
Park on the street in Newark east of Penn station.
Most streets have free parking and I never had to park more than 4 short blocks from the station.
Harrison has paid on street parking 7 days a week with weird setup and high parking tickets.
Hoboken, forget about it, residents barely have enough spaces, and with Washinton Ave closed to traffic due to arts festival, nightmare.
Hoboken parking is scarce. Harrison has live meters 7days/wk. until 5PM. The meters around Grove St. are off on Sunday and finding a space is never much of a problem within a block of the station.
I was browsing the Barnes & Noble site using the keyword "Subway" (what else) and found that number new books are scheduled for release in within the next 3 to 4 months:
"New York's Forgotten Substations: The Power behind the Subways" by Christopher Payne
Publishers comments:
"All over New York City, hidden behind unassuming historic facades, sits the gigantic machinery of the power stations that once moved the subways. For over a century, the 125,000-pound converters and related equipment of the substations remained largely unchanged, but in 1999 the last manually operated substation was shut down and since then they have been systematically dismantled and sold as scrap.
In 1997, author Christopher Payne was introduced to the substations by an official of the Metropolitan Transit Authority's Power Division. Since then, he has rushed to photograph, draw, and write the history of these amazing buildings and their machines before they are completely gone. With virtually unlimited access to the substations, he has developed an intimate bond with the buildings that most people know only in passing. His beautiful photographs and detailed drawings bring these lost treasures to life, while his illuminating text tells their fascinating story. Anyone interested in the art of industrial America or the New York subway will find this book a delight.
Author Biography: Christopher Payne is an architect with Weiss Manfredi architects. He lives in Brooklyn, New York."
The book is due out in October
The B & N web page is:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1BXR5WRB40&isbn=1568983557
=====================================================================
New York Subways by Lesley A. DuTemple
- Traces the history of the underground transportation system in NYC, discussing the politics involved, how it was financed, the men who built it and the construction techinques.
Book is due out 9/28/2002 and is geared for the younger set (ages 9-10).
The B & N web page is:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1BXR5WRB40&isbn=0822503786
====================================================================
Metropolitan Railways - Rapid Transit in America by William D. Middleton
Publishers comments:
"Metropolitan Railways is a large-scale, extensively illustrated
volume that portrays the growth and development of urban rail transit systems in North America. From such impractical early schemes as a proposed steam-powered "arcade railway" under New York's Broadway, or Alfred Ely Beach's pneumatic subway, the book traces the development of rail transit technology through today's sophisticated systems that employ computer-era technology to attain fully automatic train operation.
Author Biography: William D. Middleton, a transportation and engineering historian
and journalist, is the author of eighteen books, including The Time of
the Trolley, The Interurban Era, and When the Steam Railroads Electrified, which together with Metropolitan Railways form a comprehensive illustrated history of all forms of electric railway transportation in North America. His most recent books are "Yet there isn't a Train I wouldn't take" and The Bridge at Quebec. He has contributed many articles and photographs to Trains, Classic Trains, Railroad, Vintage Rails, and other railroad enthusiast magazines and has written about electric railways, cable cars, Penn Station, and the historic Canton Viaduct for American Heritage and American Heritage of Invention & Technology.
Middleton's professional career has included work as a structural
engineer and bridge designer, and he completed a 29-year career in the
U.S. Navy's Civil Engineer Corps in 1979, retiring as a commander. He
joined the University of Virginia in 1979 as its chief facilities officer,
retiring again in 1993. He remains active as a consultant in higher
education facilities management."
Book is due out 1/15/2003.
B & N web page:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1BXR5WRB40&isbn=0253341795
====================================================================
Straphanging in the U.S.A.: Trolleys and Subways in American life by Martin W. Sandler
No comments from the Publisher.
The book is due out at the end of November 2002.
The B & N web page is:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1BXR5WRB40&isbn=0195132297
Some of you might remember my mentioning a few months ago that the state budget was in the toilet and that raises were going to be completely out of the question. That the REAL issue for any of the employee unions facing the coming budget year was going to be trying to keep the bleeding of jobs to a minimum. I also indicated that the reality would be KEPT from everybody until AFTER the election.
Update ... it's gotten *SO* bad that for the first time that I can ever remember, the word has gone out PUBLICLY to state agencies (MTA is just another one) that not only do they have to "hold the line" to a small increase as has happened before, but to a ZERO increase in cash over the last budget. This is BIG stuff, and knowing the person making the statement, this is merely a hedge.
There will be no wage increases or incrementals, there will be a bloodbath once Paturkey is re-elected. That a statement such as this became public NOW means the worst is yet to come ... the link below is to a story about Gov. George Pataki's Budget Director Carole Stone telling agencies that the piggy bank is empty ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=58118&category=STATE&newsdate=9/26/2002
(TimesUnion links do not require registration and include advertising)
Wow in November I get to know my raise or lack of one for the next 2 years!
Sorry to be the bearer, but as I've said before, Paturkey is SO obsessed with getting reupped (he PROMISED two terms was it, whoops) that he's been lying to all New Yorkers all along. And NOW, after Bruno got his baseball stadium and his train station, millions and millions MORE dollars are getting dumped in Rensselaer county AGAIN while the rest of the state burns.
Division of the Budget making an OFFICIAL statement like the one I linked to at this time shows just how BIG a lie it's been. There will be no raises. There will be MASS firings and retrenchment across tha board, everywhere. Construction stopped except where the lawsuits would exceed the savings.
Hopefully, McCall will somehow manage to get elected. At least H Carl can count money and find ways to minimize the damage. Paturkey is blowing his wad like a drunken sailor and the statement by Division of the Budget are nothing short of stunning coming out BEFORE the election. Since Carole Stone is a hardcore loyalist insider and not some political gadfly trying to damage her boss, this is MIGHTY serious stuff.
Hopefully TWU will put its efforts into trying to hold the line and minimize the number of positions abolished. If you guys can get a few extra sheckels, that'd be great too ... but I'm suggesting it's highly unlikely. Hopefully TWU will choose its battles wisely. A STRIKE would be a cost cutter and if the card is played, folks might get taken up on it ... sorry once again for being the bearer, but folks who can see the battlefield before stepping in it often have a better chance ...
"A STRIKE would be a cost cutter"
Is that actually true? Don't tax revenues decline enough to offset and savings in payroll?
"A STRIKE would be a cost cutter"
(Is that actually true? Don't tax revenues decline enough to offset and savings in payroll?)
The subway would make money after a fare increase, but buses lose. They can't afford not to wait it out, however.
Thank God inflation is low -- the one percent we non-reps got last year is almost break even with inflation at 1.4 percent. Then again, with the rise in fees and taxes thanks to squandering the boom, we'd be further behind. At least those of you who don't own homes will find housing prices falling. Those who do have been able to refinance.
When I refer to "cost cutter," I do so within the unique mindsets of political accounting. Ask the bus drivers who hit the picket lines in Queens. It cost the city in other ways, but it really cut the labor costs of the bus drivers who were out on strike. And it'll be many years before they recoup their own loss by walking.
While Enron and WorldCon are gone from the stage, the type of accounting scams are STILL the methods politicians use to show that they've created jobs when they'va actually lost them, to show that unemployment is down now (which is actually UP, but so many people LEFT the state and moved elsewhere that a little fudging hides that) and many other machinations of the truth.
But yes, if TWU were to strike, the wages not paid out (plus double-fine revenues from the Taylor law) would show as a "profit" the way these things work. And the external losses would show up in another set of books and not correlated to this even were it to occur.
I've worked for the state in "recessionary years" and those were always contracts of zero-zero-zero-three percent type increments in the negotiations outcomes. I see this year as being another of those. TWU would be wise to hold the line on RAISES and go for a thinning of the ranks of duplicative management and disciplinaries, and other ideas for negotiation that could result in cutting costs and not incurring new ones. Those they might get.
And I *hope* it's possible for them to get raises and no further encroachments on benefits ... it's just going to be a hard one to sell once the elections are out of the way and the TRUTH of the state and city's economic situation can finally be told to the voters. I'm just AMAZED that any of the revelation got out BEFORE the election. That's NEVER happened before.
(it's just going to be a hard one to sell once the elections are out of the way and the TRUTH of the state and city's economic situation can finally be told to the voters. I'm just AMAZED that any of the revelation got out BEFORE the election. That's NEVER happened before.)
How's this for truth. We are going into a horrible fiscal disaster, and the number of private sector jobs is still HIGHER than it was at the PEAK of the prior boom in the late 1980s. So I don't want to hear about the economy.
For years, Democrats and Liberals, Republicans and Conservatives would point to the million people on welfare as a excuse for us paying more and getting less. Liberals would say other places should be sending in funding to help, while conservatives would blame the city's dependency culture. But now there is no million people on welfare anymore, so they can't point the finger at Blacks and Latinos.
Before the welfare boom, the fingers was pointed at overpaid public employees. But we are coming out of a half decade in which no one competent was willing to take a public sector job. So they can't blame the unions.
Where's it going? The more you know, the sicker you get.
Yep, and the band plays on. Watch for a large increase in private sector layoffs actually taking effect in the next four weeks nationwide (most were already announced, but those critical "final checks" are imminent for hundreds of thousands) but of course, these too won't make it into the public statistics until after the elections either.
We're seeing pretty much the same pattern as "Daddy's" administration here - the obsessions and the ignoring of the (oh how I hate this buzzword) "malaise" growing among the public. With public confidence waning to the beat of the war drums, it's looking like 1992 all over again come 2004 ... but it's still "the economy stupid" and the politicos remain clueless. We'll see.
But yes, isn't amusing the three card monty game still being played as a smaller and smaller number of people accumulate more wealth than they'll ever be able to use while more and more people struggle to make ends meet. What a difference a mere two years has made, dunno if I want to watch this sideshow for two more.
Let's just say I'm impressed by how far things can tank with a rudderless administration.
Man you said it all...
"the three card monty game still being played as a smaller and smaller number of people accumulate more wealth than they'll ever be able to use while more and more people struggle to make ends meet."
The really said part is that W wants still MORE tax cuts for the rich and super rich, amazing. And those with "more wealth than they'll ever be able to use" are fighting like bears to repeal the estate tax, heaven forbid that upon their passing (and still having untold millions if not billions) a few bucks be taxed by the government to pay for a small wage increase for public servents or to allow for decent health care or a thousand other critical needs. No it's more important their kids are assured of never having work a day in THEIR lives (and "more wealth than THEY WILL ever be able to use").
Metro-North Railroad will again conduct an Open House at its heavy repair
facility at Croton-Harmon, NY, on Saturday, October 19, 2002. The hours are
10AM through 3 PM.
As in the past, there will be displays of all types of locomotive, coach and MU
equipment, exhibits from many Metro-North departments, shop tours and the fall
foliage train ride up the Hudson. To reach the location take any Metro-North
Hudson Line or Amtrak Empire Service train to Croton-Harmon station. Shuttle
busses will operate between the passenger station and the shop.
u work for Metro North? i do too
u work for Metro North? i do too. what do you do for them? im a custodian.
locomotive Engineer out of Brewster
Should be a SubTalk meeting at GCT Clock right smack in the middle of the station at around 10am to go up there. Anybody interested?
As of now I will definitely be going as I'm interested in not only the equipment but also how to get some type of job working for MNRR as I have been trying for quite some time now. And working for the RR has been my lifelong dream.
Seems like my resume is not enough. I'll have to find some type of inside connection that can get me in b/c all I receive is the lousy postcard. I sure hope the Opne House can help me out.
Hope to see you all there.
#6312 MNRR
Great suggestion about meeting at GCS "Clock". I won't be going this year, but that's what a bunch of us did last year, i.e. take M-N to the C-H Open House.
They'll have a shuttle bus to transport you from the M-N station up & over the line to the yard ... then the fun begins. Plan to come early because there is a lot to see & you'll want to have a choice amoung the give aways. On site is a coffee shop for lunch, but it will be busy.
I took the #1 train around the loop a couple of times while looking out the front window, and I can tell you that the sharpest curve is where the station is. There is about one car-length on the back side of the station that is AS sharp a curve, but then it straightens out.
I don't see why for perhaps $50 million or less, the TA couldn't just extend the platform to a ten car length on the back side of the station. Yes you'd still need gap fillers. Yes the train moves slowly around the curve. Yes there is wear and tear on the rail. But for a fraction of the cost you'd get the main benefit -- no need to wait while passengers move to the first five cars.
If they are going to spend the money, they should at least put in the non-revenue connection to the Jorolemon tube, as discussed earlier.
Remember the discussion of "boondoggle"? I think the idea is that, if "free" FEMA money is available, it might as well be spent.
I agree with that. That way they can still turn trains fast around the loop also. With a full length station at SF, trains can still move through just like any other station on the line, even though it is reversing direction.
>>> I don't see why for perhaps $50 million or less, the TA couldn't just extend the platform to a ten car length <<<
You also have the safety problem with a curving station. Some special procedures, including one or more platform conductors would be needed to insure safe closing of the doors. The train C/R could not possibly observe the entire 10 car train.
Tom
I agree that the South Ferry station is obsolete and would never be built on a loop today. But since there are so many other pressing transit issues in Lower Manhattan today, just leave well enough alone. If the station platform is extended north it will be too close to Rector Street. Remember too that the current station exit is right next to the Staten Island Ferry, where it belongs anyway. Any new construction in this are also poses the issues of a high water table.
I think they may be hesitant to do any excavation near the loop due to the water table. When the loop station was built, they had to pump water out around the clock to keep the works from flooding.
You're right. Why extend the platform when lazy New Yorkers will crowd toward one section of the train as they usually do?
i take the J train to school,lately i,ve been seeing the R42 with the
new black flooring,i worte down some of the cars that have em or might have them,i,ve rode some them and they look good:
4879,4878 4875,4874 4887,4886 4883,4882 4896,4897 4862,4863 4838,4839
4835,4834 4885,4884 4814,4815 4860,4861 4863,4864 4827,4826 4840,4841
4850,4851 4848,4849 4803,4802 4813,4812 4949,4948 4912,4913 4933,4932
4916,4917 4912,4913 4903,4902 4911,4910 4900,4901
is it that soon all the R42 are going to get the black flooring?i hope
so,the R42 need new floors.
til next time
Probably, answering your question.
A lot of other rolling stocks need them as well like the R62, R68, R32...
Whatever makes you happy.
Here are some streetcar pictures. They're scans of prints made from slides, so the quality isn't up where I'd like it to be, but it's the best I can do with the equipment I have...
ALRV 4213 in Goldmember advertising.
PCC rail grinders running at the museum.
PCC 4549 with a fishbowl bus.
PCC 4500 with a GM/MCI Classic bus.
Enjoy.
-Robert King
I think they look just fine. Thank you for sharing them.
As always, nice stuff bro ... :)
They came out nice, Rob... thanks for posting!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Robert, Loved the Goldmember two car wrap !
Thanks for sharing.
They came out fine! The only thing that disturbs me is the desecration of the infamous TTC paint scheme with the wrap advertising. I can't get used to that!
I apologize if this has already been posted. More details about the speed, concrete blocks, etc.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-derail0928,0,7624083.story?coll=ny%2Dtop%2Dheadlines
Wow ... well, a few more pictures and my theory appears to be headed for the crapper ... that break in the trackway looks now like it was a RESULT of the crash rather than the cause.
Going to be a long wait for real answers I guess, since I'm done guessing what happened there ...
Looks like that curve will get a slow speed sign.
I wonder how fast he was taking it.
I thought I spotted a wheel detector mounting van in that last set of pictures. They SAY it's good for 60 MPH but when you flip open the panel for manual override, it's supposedly throttled back to 30-35. Some folks may not know that those puppies are ZPTO's ... still a damned shame, whatever caused it.
Sounds like they didn't secure the cargo and it shifted when the train took the curve. It would be interesting to know if those blocks they were using to simulate a load of pax were tied in place or braced or were just sitting there depending on friction to hold them there.
Another "Wreck of the Edmund FitzGerald."
The slow-speed sign may or may not be appropriate. It must be determined first that speed was a factor. That has not been determined.
I have not walked over to the accident site but I do live near it. I was just surprised that the whole thing was rated 60MPH, that is a nice curve.
The weight shifting abruptly on a slower train seems a more likely cause for the accident. Of course the safety test is unsafe.
The Times also has their story up. More AirTrain background, but of course no one knows the details of the accident yet....
"Workers at the scene, on airport grounds near Federal Circle, said the accident may have been caused by the shifting of heavy concrete blocks placed inside the train to simulate a passenger load."
This is not unheard of, as shifting loads can and will cause serious damage to a moving vehicle of any sorts. A vehicle is meant to operate under a certain set of physical parameters. Rapidly shifting a couple tons of concrete in a train is no different than if a wrecking ball had broadsided the car.
A couple of years ago, a South American air freighter literally fell out of the sky, seconds after taking off from Miami-Dade International Airport, when the cargo load shifted abruptly and dramatically aft during the ascent.
The ValuJet crash was more the indirect result of shifting loads, as an improperly secured tire shifted aft and resulted in fire via damage to improperly labelled oxygen canisters.
There are many other instances of which I can't think of right now.
This is a real tradgedy all around. There is the senseless loss of innocent life. Lesser but still importantly, there is the setback and bad publicity for a public system.
I think a lot needs to fall out of the investigation, but I really must ask: why were the concrete blocks not secured? They appear to be both the direct and indirect cause of death. It's rare and tragic when one error causes double jeapordy. I really hope there is some reform out of this,
Matt :)
>>> This is not unheard of, as shifting loads can and will cause serious damage to a moving vehicle of any sorts <<<
I find it very unlikely that the air train running normally could cause enough of a load shift to derail it. My guess is that there was some failure of the trucks or rail that caused the derailment, and the load shift which crushed the operator occurred during the rapid deceleration after the train hit the guide way wall.
Tom
Depends on how sharp the curve and how fast the train. Plywood doesn't really have all that much friction. (While it's better than ice, it's a lot less than, say, a carpet.) With all of the electronic monitoring, I'll bet that there is a precise record of the train's speed at the time of the crash sitting in a computer at the control center.
Going by this story and the one posted from the Times, it looks like the ballast shifting is going to the focus of the probe.
Put people in a rail car (or stick cattle in a truck), and they will naturally shift with a curve in order to maintain their balance. Concrete block, especially if they weren't secured to the floor or walls to prevent any major movement, will just let gravity and angular motion take their course and shift in the apprpriate direction going around a curve.
If the blocks were just stuck in there without any concern about locking them down, I'd been iterested to find out if this is standard operating proceedure for testing cars on new rail lines, or if this is just something Bombardier and/or the PANYNJ came up with.
London Underground and TTC put unsecured sandbags on seats of new subway cars to simulate passenger loads for testing purposes. What struck me as odd about this case was the fact that concrete blocks were being used.
-Robert King
That's kinda crap that shifting blocks caused this. Does this mean we must be completely strapped to the train in order for it not to derail?
Agreed. Under ordinary operation, the train and its load should not have been subject to more than 0.1 g's or so. That's not going to send blocks flying into the walls. Friction will keep them where they belong at those accelerations.
However, something (e.g., a derailment; the investigation will hopefully find out what) made the train stop really suddenly, probably causing a deceleration of several g's. That would be enough for the blocks to then go flying (just as live passengers would have) and hit the operator (with far more damage than live humans or even sandbags would have caused).
The blocks may have been the cause for the fatality but probably not for the original problem.
Could you post your calculation of the lateral g forces as the train rounded the curve, please.
I would be interested to know how you arrived at the figure of 0.1 g.
I would also like to know how many g's it takes to make a concrete block overcome friction and slide on a plywood surface. I assume from your post that you have that information.
My g force of 0.1 was shooting from the hip. Doing the calculations, it does seem like it could be somewhat larger but not outlandishly large. I'd now say 0.15 g's, but it could be more if the curve was really sharp (which it doesn't appear to be from the pictures).
Things don't start to slide till g forces hit the value of the coefficient of friction, which is probably around 0.3 or 0.4 for cinder blocks or bricks (which are rough). So I still find it very hard to believe that the cause of the accident (as opposed to the cause of the fatality) was the blocks.
Here's some physics and calculus.
If an object goes around a circle of radius r at speed s, you can describe its position as a function of time t by the vector
p(t) = (r*cos(st/r),r*sin(st/r))
Then the velocity vector v(t) is the first derivative of p(t):
v(t) = p'(t) = (-s*sin(st/r),s*cos(st/r))
The acceleration vector is the second derivative p''(t) = v'(t) =
a(t) = (s*s/r) * (-cos(st/r),-sin(st/r))
The magnitude of a(t) is acceleration as a number, and it is s*s/r.
Other posting say the train was going about 25 mph. Let's say 12 m/s. I don't know r, but I'll guess it's like a noticeable but not really sharp subway curve, say 330' = 100m. It doesn't look like a sharp curve in the pictures.
Then s*s/r = 1.44, which is 0.15 g's (one g in metric units is 9.8 meters per second quared), and certainly if the train was going faster or the curve was sharper, it could be higher.
Coefficients of sliding friction are usually in the .3 range, so I admit there is a chance the blocks could have started sliding around. After all, people slide around on subway trains in sharp curves too. But they don't go slamming into other people with enough force to do damage.
If you did manage to have an acceleration of 0.4 g's, the friction would slow down the blocks, and there would be a net acceleration on the block of (train acceleration) - (coefficient of friction) = 0.1 g. In a curve, the blocks would slide sideways, not forward toard the operator. They wouldn't have much time to speed up by the time they hit the door.
Thanks for posting that.
You've obviously studied physics (and calc) more recently than I -- it's been 30 years -- so let me raise a couple of questions. Is the value of the coefficient of friction you cite for brick sliding on brick or for brick sliding on a smooth wood surface? How do vertical movements or vibrations of the wood floor, such as would be experienced in a moving railcar, affect the coefficient? In other words, what happens if the ride isn't smooth or there is a little bump that puts 1/32 inch between the block and the floor?
Let's assume, however, that your coefficient value is accurate and applicable to conditions in the field. How short a radius would be required to make a concrete block sitting on a smooth wood floor slide assuming a speed of 25 mph? (When I took the tour, I was told that some of the curves in the system are quite sharp, which was given as the reason why the cars use steerable trucks.) Assuming the radius is correct, how fast would the train have to have been going to make the blocks slide? And, as the $64 question, how much lateral force would have to be imparted to the inside of a railcar of its stated mass to cause a wheel to derail and how large an acceleration of blocks of their stated mass would have been required to impart such a force?
Matt and AEM7 have some useful information in their replies.
Also, one more formula: if you accelerate an object from rest,
speed squared = 2 * acceleration * distance
So an acceleration of 0.2 g (= 6.4 feet per second squared) could over a distance of 9 feet could cause a block to be going about 11 feet per second, or 7.5 mph.
That's not very fast, but I hadn't thought of the issue of the impulse. The force exerted by those blocks (8 tons worth, according to today's Times), if it happens within a tenth of a second, might be a far greater force for a short period of time than any bunch of people would ever exert, and therefore push the vehicle off the track.
"Coefficients of sliding friction are usually in the .3 range,...
That's correct. I typically use mu=0.25, but there is a very good chance mu might actually be higher here. We don't know how the block were secured, whether they were left on the floor of car, or on the seats. Regardless, I feel a value of 0.3 for mu is what is best to use.
"...so I admit there is a chance the blocks could have started sliding around."
Unfortunatelty, we already know that they did, as they were the cause of death. The question is: was the block movement the cause of or the result of the crash.
"After all, people slide around on subway trains in sharp curves too. But they don't go slamming into other people with enough force to do damage..."
Yes, but people aren't blocks. We can compensate for accelration through our use of balance. If you assume the average weight of a person is like 170 lb., and put n 170 lb. blocks (or balls, for that matter) on the floor of a subway car, you would have a very different effect than if you put 170 lb. people in that car.
To demonstrate this, go to your refrigerator, and get out a plastic jug of milk that is about a quarter or third full. Place the milk jug on a smooth table top, and give it a good push. Notice how the movement isn't slow and steady, but very jerky. The load of milk shifts within the milk jug due to changes in acceleration.
"If you did manage to have an acceleration of 0.4 g's, the friction would slow down the blocks, and there would be a net acceleration on the block of (train acceleration) - (coefficient of friction) = 0.1 g."
Not necessarily.
Assume a block of weight w. The force of sliding friction (Fs) for that block is Fs=mu*m. Now the force you're applying from, say a turn, is F. F must be equal to or greater than Fs for the block to move. The block will still accelerate, just at F-Fs, as you say.
However, this has very little to do with speed. The block would appear to break free, and accelerate at F-Fs. Say F-Fs is equal to 0.1g, as you say. 1g is 32.2 ft/s^2, so 0.1g is 0.322 ft/s^2. The distance x covered in time t by an accelerating object is x(t)=0.5*a*t^2. How far will the block slide in 3 seconds? x(3)=0.5*0.322*(3^2) => x(3)= 1.5 ft. How far will the block slide in 5 seconds? x(5) = 4 ft. Even at three seconds, that's more than enough to change the center of gravity of the rail car, which has a width of, what, 10 ft? What if it is 0.2g instead of 0.1g? The change would be even more rapid. What if a restraint snapped, allowing a more rapid acceleration. What if a stack toppled?
Regardless of the scenario, I assert that a shifting load is more than enough to cause a train to jump the tracks.
Matt
I think the main issue here is the impulse and not the mass.
The difference between a bunch of shifting concrete blocks and a bunch of shifting people is that the concrete blocks hits the side of the train all at the same time, while the people will hit the side of the train one at a time. Impulse (change in momentum) is average force times time interval -- when a bunch of people, of 10,000 lbs mass, hits the side of the car, the impulse is the same as 10,000 lbs of concrete blocks hitting the side of the car. However, if the people hit the side of the car over a period of about 1 second, and the concrete blocks hit over a period of 100 ms, then the force experienced by the side of the car (hence the wheel flange) is ten times larger.
Still, shifting people is a pretty lame reason for a train to derail.
If all the people were sitting on one side of the train, the train should still be able to navigate the curve at full speed without derailing. But combined with the force of the blocks hitting the side of the traincar, the design lateral force might be exceeded.
If that were the cause for the derailment, then someone at Bombardier who failed to order the concrete blocks be secured failed Engineering 101.
Shifting loads on aeroplanes are not to be compared with shifting loads in trains.
As Tuch would tell you, shifting loads (or even just uneven loads) en-train can cause huge train handling problems. Anyone on the railroad would tell you never to leave stuff in a gon unsecured. Now I am thinking the Bombardier people who failed to secure the weights have obviously never run a railroad. How you can design a transit car without every having run a railroad, I do not know.
AEM7
"I think the main issue here is the impulse and not the mass."
I don't know about that. Are we to assume that the block(s) actually impacted the side of the car? If they did, would there be a time limit on their impact. Impusle might be great for rockets, but wouldn't momentum (and not impulse) be the proper model? Still, momentum requires impact with the side of the carbody, which is presumably weak enough and flexible enough to absorb quite a bit of force.
"Shifting loads on aeroplanes are not to be compared with shifting loads in trains."
And why is that? The load on the airplane didn't break through the hull by shifting, it merely shifted enough to upset the center of gravity.
If the load on the train was heavy enough, and the train was making a turn, and the load shifted suddenly, the center of gravity might change suddenly, causing any number of problems.
Matt
If the load on the train was heavy enough, and the train was making a turn, and the load shifted suddenly, the center of gravity might change suddenly, causing any number of problems.
If what you state is true, NYT would have carried the following headlines:
TRAIN DERAILED BY WALKING COMMUTERS -- as a train approached a curve on the Lexington El this morning, all commuters walked to the right hand side of the car which was on the outside of the car. Apparently, the shift in center of gravity caused the said el car to derail and flip over.
The reason you cannot compare a plane and a train is because the plane is designed with the assumption that there are no sudden shifts of center of gravity. A plane is much harder to keep in the air than a train on the tracks. A plane is in a dynamic unstable equilibrium when it's cruising, hence the need for the pilot to make continual adjustments to the controls to keep it flying. A train is in a stable equilibrium in that if you let go of the controls, assuming it doesn't go too fast, the train will keep on going and going and going. A freight train ran some 93 miles unattended in Ohio last year without derailing. A plane without a pilot (or an autopilot) usually crashes within a few minutes.
Shifting passengers in a train should not cause it to derail. Shifting loads in a freight train has been known to cause derailments, but usually through the mechanism of impacting the sides, and not through shifting the center of gravity. If the sides weren't impacted, the center of gravity could shift all it wants (within reason), as long as it does not exceed the 4'8" the vehicle will remain stable. Concrete blocks in a transit car are unlikely to shift in such a way as to cause the center of gravity to lie outside the 4'8". In any case, if the COG shifted outside the track gauge, the train will flip and roll and not derail.
AEM7
In the late 1980's, when I was at the University of Miami, one of the Metrorail trains held a crowd returning from a football victory by the Miami Hurricanes. The students did what they considered, apparently, to be a variant of "The Wave;" they rushed from one side to the other of the train in a coordinated fashion. The train rocked rather violently from side to side, the suspension system complaining.
Could it have fl;ipped the train? Presunably not, but anyone aboard might have thought about it...
In the late 1980's, when I was at the University of Miami, one of the Metrorail trains held a crowd returning from a football victory by the Miami Hurricanes.
Wow, this was before they had double decker trains. Metrorail -- is that the commuter rail, the subway or the light rail? I don't know MIA very well. Maybe I should do some calculations before I open my big mouth, not being familiar with the dynamics of coordinated shifting passengers in a light rail car.
Let's see... ordinary European coaches weigh about 40 tons, and the North American FRA version probably about 60 tons. I would have thought that the about 1/4 of the weight of the cars is actually in the trucks, with the remaining 3/4 equally distributed in the carbody. This if we assume that we had crush load of 160 paxs/car, using an average weight of about 0.08 tons per person, that's equivalent to a mass of 12.8 tons. Supposing that the car is 10' wide and the truck is mounted at the center (i.e. 2.75' from the edge of the wheelset to the edge of the car). If 160 paxs all run to oneside, the center of gravity for the paxs might be about 1' from the side of the car. Therefore, the downwards force due to the coach body is 45T.g at the center and the downwards force due to the paxs is 13T.g 4' from the center. Free body balancing diagram shows the center of gravity to be at 5.89' from the far side of the car (or 4.11' from the near side of the car). We're still a long way from the limit of 2.75'.
Of course, the car could be lighter, especially if it is light rail, and the car could be entering curve. However, it's still pretty difficult to topple a traincar or a bus. Did you know that double-decker buses are designed to topple up to 9 degrees before they can become unstable? All dobule-decker buses leaving Leyland are tested to 6 degrees, but they should be stable up to 9 degrees.
AEM7
>>> If 160 paxs all run to oneside, the center of gravity for the paxs might be about 1' from the side of the car. <<<
If they are crush loaded they would not be able to move from side to side, so the CG would stay much closer to the center. I suspect the rocking action produced by the football crowd had to do more with setting up a harmonic with the springs on each side of the car than just the weight shift alone. Obviously the dampening of the spring action was sufficient to avert disaster.
Tom
Old Tom is correct.
This was not QE-2 where passengers all shifted the load to one side...is not a monorail designed to always maintain secure adhesion with the trainset? How can you derail a monorail???? Carbody must lose total contact!!!! Bombardier fools again...anyone looking for a cheap R142 'B' car? CI Peter
1. It's not a monorail.
2. It's pure speculation at this point that the concrete load could have caused the derailment. In any case, it's not the shifting alone that would be the issue. A prior posting by AEM7 suggests that maybe the concrete blocks slammed into the side of the car at fairly high speed, causing a sudden short-duration but strong force (remember f delta t = m delta v?) that might have been strong enough to derail it.
This is not at all the same as everybody running to one side of a rail car. A pure issue of "shifting loads" is just a change in the center of gravity.
3. It's hard to see how the concrete blocks could have gained any speed unless the floor was really slick, the curve was unbanked, and the trainwas going faster than reported.
So let's not be so sure it's the load, yet. Certianly the load was the cause of the fatality, but not necessarily of the accident.
Miami Metrorail uses cars similar to Atlanta's MARTA subway. They are about 10' wide.
Let's see... ordinary European coaches weigh about 40 tons, and the North American FRA version probably about 60 tons. I would have thought that the about 1/4 of the weight of the cars is actually in the trucks, with the remaining 3/4 equally distributed in the carbody.
There are some unique differences with the AirTrain rolling stock. Linear induction motors are used. This considerably reduces the truck weight. The total weight of the unloaded AirTrain cars is 53,000 lbs; the corresponding figure for a NYCT car of the same dimensions is approximately 83,000 lbs. If one assumes that the most of the weight difference is due to the trucks, then there will be a much higher center of mass for loaded cars. The service level capacity for the AirTrain should be identical to that for NYCT's 60-footers: 145 passengers. The service level load weight would be 21,750 lbs or almost 30% of the total weight of the loaded car.
A second interesting point is the use of air suspension instead of pure spring suspension. If there is a limit lock to prevent too much sway, then the car body and the trucks would become a rigid structure. The centripetal force generated by going around a curve would be acting on a much higher center of mass under such conditions.
A third point is the presence of a wheel in the middle of the car on the wreck pictures. This may be a simple case of a truck failure. Bombardier has not had much luck with its castings lately.
I certainly await the NTSB's findings with anticipation.
All dobule-decker buses leaving Leyland are tested to 6 degrees, but they should be stable up to 9 degrees.
British double-deckers and the old Fifth Avenue double-deckers buses prohibited standing on the upper level. Is the 9 degree tilt test done with simulated passenger loads or empty buses. If it is loaded, is there a test done assuming standing passengers on the upper level at crush loads and none on the lower level?
"The centripetal force generated by going around a curve would be acting on a much higher center of mass under such conditions."
You do mean centrifugal force, right? A body moving in a straight line wants to keep moving in a straight line, hence the force generated while moving around a curve which acts to try to push the railcar in a direction out of the curve...
Damn, not this again. I remember in physics 101 they told us that centri* force did not exist, but I did not remember whether * = petal or * = fugal. Is it flowers or mushrooms?
An object rounding an arc experiences a force, because it is being accelerated towards the center of the arc. More correctly, an object will ONLY round an arc if it experiences a force accelerating it towards the center of the arc. The object will carry on going in a straight line if it experiences no forces.
No forces are "generated" when you go round a curve. Forces are *required* for you to get around the curve. Otherwise you will go in a straight line.
An object that is going round the curve is under the influence of a force towards the center of the arc.
I forget if this is flowers or mushrooms.
AEM7
"The centripetal force generated by going around a curve would be acting on a much higher center of mass under such conditions."
"I forget if this is flowers or mushrooms."
You almost had it right. The force that exists is centripetal. I forget what the petal stands for, but fugal is fleeing, and doesn't exist, since the fleeing from the center is caused not by a force but by the tendency to continue in a straight line.
Your sentence would be more correct if you said:
"The centripetal force that needs to be exerted by the rails to take the vehicle around a curve would be acting on a much higher center of mass under such conditions."
"Centrifugal" force was invented to account for the tendency of an object travelling in a curve to go off on a straight line (tangent) when the "centripetal" force holding it to the curve was released. In fact, "centrifugal" force is nothing but plain old inertia (an object in motion will continue in motion in a straight line).
If the load shifted, then the following sequence occurred:
a) While the load shifted (i.e., was no longer held by friction to the floor of the car), the mass of the object (car plus load) being turned by the tracks decreased by the amount of the load shifting. This would have the effect of decreasing the outward lean of the car.
b) The load, now freed of centripetal force, would continue in a straight line until contacting the side of the car.
c) Once in contact with the side of the car, the load would again be added to the mass of the car, resulting in the car leaning out.
What you would have to do to get the forces at the time of impact is to add the vector force of (a) the mass of the car (straight line tangent to the curve), (b) the mass of the load (also straight line tangent to the curve), and (c) the momentum of the load relative to the car (this would be slightly greater than the tangent because the car would have turned after the load started to shift).
A good example of why shifting loads can cause trouble comes with tanker trucks. They have separate tanks or baffles with small openings because if the entire load of oil, water, or whatever were to shift it would cause a spectacular catastrophe.
But what I still find hard to believe is that the speed of the train around the curve could be so high that the frictional forces couldn't keep the load sitting still on the floor of the car.
Concrete blocks are usually pretty rough objects. If the load shift caused the accident (and not just the fatality), either the floor was greased or else the car was going far too fast around the curve.
But what I still find hard to believe is that the speed of the train around the curve could be so high that the frictional forces couldn't keep the load sitting still on the floor of the car.
A little bit of cant deficiency calculations might given an idea as to the kind of forces involved. On British Rail, typically cant deficiencies (or superelevation) is limited to 150mm, and 165mm in exceptional circumstances. Permissible speed at a given cant deficiency depends mainly on the center of gravity of the traincar. Using the British Data, we can calculate the reaction forces experienced at the gauge corner of the rail when the vehicle is travelling at exceptional cant deficiency. If the load shifted in the JFK airtrain, the friction values would have had to be less than those reactionary forces.
Damn, I just realized I don't have the track geometry data for a given sample curve (I need the Permanent Way Institution text). Does anyone have a PWay Institute text handy? I need to know for a given curve the versines values and the proposed speed limits for passenger vehicles at either standard or exceptional cant deficiency.
AEM7
"A good example of why shifting loads can cause trouble comes with tanker trucks. They have separate tanks or baffles with small openings because if the entire load of oil, water, or whatever were to shift it would cause a spectacular catastrophe."
Excellent point. Another reason is so that a leak or puncture need not involve the entire tanker.
Thank you. In other words, we are talking about the force required to overcome the tendency to stay in motion along a straight line.
...double-deckers buses prohibited standing on the upper level. Is the 9 degree tilt test done with simulated passenger loads or empty buses.
It's done on empty buses. The reason standing is prohibited on the upper level is because the upper level can sway suddenly, and you might be thrown off balance and bash your head on a window if you stood up on the upper level. The "open-top" tour buses may actually throw you off the bus if you stand on the upper level.
I don't know if they would test the bus with simulated pax loads. I don't know what the results would be, either.
AEM7
Thank you for a really great, informative post.
"To demonstrate this, go to your refrigerator, and get out a plastic jug of milk that is about a quarter or third full. Place the milk jug on a smooth table top, and give it a good push. Notice how the movement isn't slow and steady, but very jerky. The load of milk shifts within the milk jug due to changes in acceleration. "
A very elegant example, and the basis for a great table-top experiment that a physics teacher could have students do in class.
"your refrigerator, and get out a plastic jug of milk that is about a quarter or third full"... A very elegant example
I don't know about that. We're trying to demonstrate that different objects behave differently under dynamic conditions in a container. It's kind of hard to demonstrate. The reason the plastic jug of milk runs around when you push it has more to do with the viscosity of the milk than friction and dynamic forces caused by shifting loads. If you tried the same experiment with honey, the honey won't shift as much, and if you try the same experiment with solidified wax, well the wax won't shift at all.
I can't think of an easy way to demonstrate the effect other than to say that you could spin a container on a string, with either a lump of cookie dough stuck to the center of the container or an equal weight of honey. As you increase the (angular) speed with which you are spinning the container, the cookie dough might become unstuck and suddenly hit the side: you will feel a tug on the string. With the honey, you won't feel the same thing because the force is applied gradually as the honey flows towards the side. That "tug" was probably what derailed the train.
You can tell I'm hungry.
AEM7
"I don't know about that. We're trying to demonstrate that different objects behave differently under dynamic conditions in a container. It's kind of hard to demonstrate. The reason the plastic jug of milk runs around when you push it has more to do with the viscosity of the milk than friction and dynamic forces caused by shifting loads."
So use water.
"If you tried the same experiment with honey, the honey won't shift as much, and if you try the same experiment with solidified wax, well the wax won't shift at all."
You've just shown a very nice way of studying viscosity as a variable.
A whole set of nifty experiments, easy to understand intuitively, can be created around this. This is esp/. useful for grade-school kids.
I always knew I should have pursued that M.Ed. that I had been accepted into before coming here. heh. The only problem is that teaching is such a lonely profession -- but as is train operation, and as is carrier management or consulting. It's a commentary on human society that beyond college, venues where large number of people socialize with each other no longer exist.
AEM7
The press doesn't seem to believe so...
"Workers at the scene, on airport grounds near Federal Circle, said the accident may have been caused by the shifting of heavy concrete blocks placed inside the train to simulate a passenger load."
The blocks may not have been the cause of the inital problem, any more than a baby not fastened correctly into a car seat would be the cause of an auto accident. But if you don't do that and the car crashes, then the child goes flying and with potentially fatal results, because the baby is not strong or aware enough to resist gravity's force.
The same thing applies here -- concrete blocks are hard, unlike sandags, which are mentioned on another thread as being used to test weight load on the SF Muni system. And sand has a natural desire to spread out, which means more of its surface area will be in a downward director, lessing the forward force in the event of a sudden stop due to a derailment.
The crash investigation will have two main aspects to it -- "Why did the train derail?" and "Why did the operator die?" The first question is the more important from an operational standpoint, since AirTrain can't even think about beginning operations until that question is answered. But the second question is the one where all the potential lawsuits are, since by the look of the exterior of the car, the damage from the derailment should not have been enough to kill the T/O.
Reading the story, the blocks may play a role in answering both questions. There could have been some contruction design flaw that we'll find out about in the next day or so, but that problem may have been compounded by load shift when the blocks did their natural thing and moved in the direction of the exterior of the curve as the train came around it, causing the derailment. After that, the death of DeBorugh may have been due to the continued forwartd movement of the blocks into the cab area when the train came to a sudden stop.
Given the same derailment with sandbags, the greater desire by the sand to spread out its surface area would have slowed the forward momentum, perhaps to the point where DeBorugh would have survived. With people, there isn't a very larger surface area atttached to the floor, but human begins react to a sudden stop by attemping to move their center of gravity away from the forward motion. In a violent collision, that won't prevent most everyone from going flying, but in the same way as the sandbags, it would slow any force directed towards the T/O's cab at the front of the car.
I agree with you but just want to correct one misapprehension. There is no T/O's cab.
That would help explain why the T/O was so vunerable from the forward motion of the blocks when the car came to a sudden stop. Thanks.
Terry Kennedy was kind enough to provide some PICTURES of the (ahem) "T/O" position on the (ahem) "death train" in an earlier post here. First off, there's no "T/O" these are ZPTO trains. (Zero Person Train Operation" ... the victim of this collosally unfortunate accident was probably a quality control engineer or metrologist taking measurements. Have a look at the pictures and you can see that in normal operation, there's no cab, no wall, no "sheetrock" or anything else between the train and the foamer glass. Airtrain would have been the penultimate railfan experience, since without a pesky motorman to say no, you could plant your NOSE in the "magic window" ...
Here's the post I refer to:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=390471
Looks like that, depending on the equipment in place, DeBorugh's only chance would have been to get up onto the "sill" area beneath the window to avoid the blocks, and with the train in the process of derailing and crashing through the retaining wall, he really had no time to take that option.
Fast little reference to a story I've told before. *I* was in a trainwreck myself in the "motorman's cab" of an Arnine ... even at 3 MPH, you're too busy trying to STOP it to take the proper protective measures. I lost two teeth when my train collided with another. Human nature is somehow you can "stop this" somehow ... I'm LUCKY unlike so many other motormen before and after me ... I'm STILL BREATHING. I'm still here. "Bracing yourself" buys you nothing. When a hundreds of tons of train stop suddenly, there is NOTHING you can do to save yourself. I guess ya gotta be there, maybe that's why I'm going off on the press. Poor bastard in the car couldn't do SHEET to stop what happened once it did ...
MY take on it is that I'm sorry he LIVED for as long as he did. That had to be some serious hurting, bleeding your legs off ... I guess I'm trying to avoid the empathy personally, having come that close myself. Other "motormen" have been luckier. Squished INSTANTLY. :(
Looks like that, depending on the equipment in place, DeBorugh's only chance would have been to get up onto the "sill" area beneath the window to avoid the blocks, and with the train in the process of derailing and crashing through the retaining wall, he really had no time to take that option.
He probably didn't even realize that the blocks were sliding toward him until it was too late. I also would imagine that the outcome would've been the same even if there had been a cab, as the blocks simply would have crushed it flat.
Airtrain would have been the penultimate railfan experience, since without a pesky motorman to say no, you could plant your NOSE in the "magic window" ...
I mentioned this to a fotog on the recent Steeplecab fan trip. My have been Salaam, I'm not sure. (Tripod. Black cardboard around the lense.) Anyway, his eyes opened wide and he seemed to be salivating in anticipation.
Heh. Yep, the patented photurinalist ... all foamer glass, all the time, and JUST as dead ... once again, my sympathies to the poor bastard and his family ... there but for the grace of God and 90 pounds WHEN YOU NEED it, go I ...
Airtrain would have been the penultimate railfan experience, since without a pesky motorman to say no, you could plant your NOSE in the "magic window" ...
I mentioned this to a fotog on the recent Steeplecab fan trip. Might have been Salaam, I'm not sure. (Tripod. Black cardboard around the lense.) Anyway, his eyes opened wide and he seemed to be salivating in anticipation.
(Sorry about the typo. Must proof more closely.)
Oh, I don't know. As you can read in my previous post, rapid shifting of loads has caused more than one crash. The incident I commonly refer to, and did so in my post, was that of a South American air freighter taking off from Miami. The load shifted aft suddenly, causing the plane to literally fall out of the sky seconds after takeoff. All on board were killed.
I sense what you are getting at; how can a load moveby itself?
Well, my answer is: what if a securing cable snapped? What if there was insufficient friction to hold the blocks in place? If the contractor was relying on friction, and there was a misjudgment, once the frictional force was overcome (say by a turn), the load would move, and quite suddenly.
Matt
I was looking at the track maps for the area around downtown Brooklyn, and from what I see the platform for the Lawrence Avenue M, N, R station seems to cross above the Jay Street/Borough Hall A, C, F platform. If this is accurate, then it can't be too hard to connect the two for a free transfer between these two lines. Was such a connection ever considered?
From what I see on the subway map (being a non-New Yorker I can only go by the maps, not the actual commute), it seems to be a pain to connect to the 8th Avenue lines from any of the BMT lines other than Culver. I would imagine that this would be a very useful connection.
It's literally a one block walk. I finally decided to do it one day, and even if you have no idea where to go, it's REALLY HARD to get lost looking for Jay St.
Lawrence Ave seems to be a really small and cramped station (at least the platform anyway, which seems needlessly skinny), and Jay St is a large complex, being 4 tracks and having the TA headquarters above it. Maybe being completely different like that has discouraged them from connecting the two.
Lawrence Ave seems to be a really small and cramped station (at least the platform anyway, which seems needlessly skinny),
I learned recently that Lawrence St wasn't originally there when the subway opened in 1915. It wasn't added until the 1920's. That's why there's no wall tiles (it was originally just a tunnel there).
(I learned recently that Lawrence St wasn't originally there when the subway opened in 1915. It wasn't added until the 1920's. That's why there's no wall tiles (it was originally just a tunnel there). )
I always thought that there was at least one station too many on that line (two with Rector Street). It is sooo slooow. If they don't build the Jay-Lawrence connector, maybe they should close it.
It is a very busy station. Metrotech and Downtown shopping, the courts, other govt agencies. It is closer to boro hall than boro hall station.
its ''street'',not avenue....
Oops, my bad... I'm used to Lawrence Ave in Toronto, must have written Ave without thinking. :-)
Wasn't there a report a few years ago about creating such a connection? I remember that, and the one linking the Uptown 6 to Broadway/Lafayette.
(Wasn't there a report a few years ago about creating such a connection? I remember that, and the one linking the Uptown 6 to
Broadway/Lafayette. )
Go backwards to the beginning of the thread.
At B'way-Lafayette there is an underpass from the IND to a mezzazine on what would be alongside the uptown 6. I think it was just an exit from the IND. The one time I walked there years ago, I didn't see anything that would suggest a connection to the IRT. According to that thread there was some private property along there which TA could not purchase when the lines first crossed. The beginning of the uptown platform at Bleecher St is a block from Houston St at Bleecker. It would have been a fairly long and possibly unsafe transfer point.
If it was up to me (and it isn't because of historic designations) I'd have closed Spring Street and Bleeker and built a new station directly over Houston along with the transfer. You'd replace two stations with one, with a better transfer.
The IRT local stations were set too close together. The exisiting northern entrances at Spring and southern entrances at Bleeker could probably be used for the new station, so close are they together.
The stations didn't seem as close together at the time they were built because I think they were only two or three car lengths long. Of course after the extension, they are much closer together, especially on lower Lexington where they extended the platforms in each station in opposite direcitons. The closeness after the extensions is why they abandoned a few of the original stations also.
The stations were five carlengths long as built, but I get the point and tend to agree.
David
Were the local stations 5 carlengths long? I thought only the express stations were that long, and the local stations were shorter. Well anyway, the local stations were a bit shorter than the express stations, however long they were.
Thanks - I noticed the other comments after posting mine - a consequence of doing so at two in the morning.
they won't.Metro tech's name sake.
The Montague Street tunnel was only built in 1920 (8/1), not 1915. Lawrence Street opened in 1924 (6/11).
Connecting the Jay and Lawrence St. stations has been included in the MTA's capital budget. Admittedly, they could have done in 50 years ago just after free transfers were instituted between the IND and BMT, but better later than never...
Good news.
Yep it's in the plan, and not a bad plan since whereas there are umpteen IRT stations in Lower Manhattan with several at the tip, there are just two B division stations south of Fulton. This would give all those people transferring at 4th Avenue and 9th Street a much easier transfer.
Along with the Bleeker to Broadway-Lafayette transfer, this will make a real difference for Brooklyn. But it is years away.
Of course with an unlimited metrocard (fun pass daily, weekly,monthly), it's a very short walk (about 1/2 a block). BTW not to nit pick, the station is Lawrence St. not Lawrence Ave.
(Of course with an unlimited metrocard (fun pass daily, weekly,monthly), it's a very short walk (about 1/2 a block).)
I've tried that walk. The trip up, up, out, over, down, swipe and down takes long enough that it isn't rally worth it. You are better off at 4th Avenue and 9th Street, or even taking the A to Broadway-Nassau and going back Downtown.
A quick up (or down) and over, on the other hand, would be worth it.
The platforms don't overlap that way. The IND station has a full mez level above the platforms. Also, it's my impression that Lawrence is deeper than Jay Street. Maybe Jay Street's platforms cross over Lawrence's, but not the other way around.
From the posts I've read, it seems that there is some horizontal separation between the end of the Lawrwnce platforms and the nearest point in the Jay Street station.
A lot of worries are going around NJT about Monday's start of the Midtown Direct Service. The ALP46's have been having sporadic problems last week. Train 6320's ALP46 was taken out of service twice last week on Monday and Friday. The Comet V's are doing well. They might even suspend the service until Tuesday (hopefully not.)I'm sure they will be working around the clock to try and work out any other kinks in the system that would prevent Monday's debut.
They are just finding out now that the ALP46's are having problems? They've been sitting in Harrison for months not doing anything. You'd think that they'd run a few on Midtown Direct, NEC, and NJC runs to see how'd they do.
There are at least two in regular North Jersey Coast Line service - 4602 and (I think) 4601.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Story:
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/22376p-21237c.html
The Daily News reports that the train was operating at between 20 and 30 mph at the time it derailed. The article implies that the source of this info was the PA.
"The little engine that could KILL" ... yep, might as well tear it down. While we try to be reasonable, cautious and wait for FACTS, here's the daily NOOSE selling the "death train" ... seriously, might as well scrap the line, Malbone has been sold to the public. While I have tremendous sympathy for all involved (not impressed by Bombardier not having SOME form of statement and folks here KNOW I'm NOT a Bombardier basher) this kind of yellow journalism deserves cancellation of subscriptions. They've outdone FOX and that's a hard act to follow.
Maybe I *have* been living upstate too long, but from the way the MEDIA is handling this, might as well put a fork in it, it's done ...
The article does sort of suggest some valid questions, even if it was written by Little Henny Penny. The concrete guideway sides are not parts of the same castings as the guideway itself. They were added on, on site, after the guideway was assembled in place. What connects the sides to the guideway? How much of an impact were they designed to withstand before they separate from the structure? Were they intended to keep a derailed train from falling or were they placed there for visual and acoustical reasons only?
Oh there's plenty of questions - that's not in dispute ... please bear with me, I'm on a general ragging about our worthless press lately ... ya see, I live up near Albany and we have a Hearst newspaper called the Times Union (www.timesunion.com if you want to check out their online paper - not a WORD about Airtrain though) and if a reporter or editor put together a story like that with "death train" nonsense, they'd be selling hot dogs outside the state museum within MINUTES.
You raise valid questions, so have others. I'm merely objecting to the unnecessary hyperbole and chicken little nonsense that seems to be a hallmark of NYC tabloid journalism and as a former journalist myself, it genuinely irks me ... just so's ya know where I'm coming from. I *despise* "instant news" and OPINION ... commentary belongs on the editorial page, not on in the news column inches ... just one of those things that really gets my rump in the air ... like politicos and their twirl doctors ... either we have FACTS or we have nonsense. You can't have both in the same paragraph or you can't call yourself a "professional witness" which is what journalists SHOULD be ...
Tabloids in general tend to be "manic-depressive" -- everything is made out to either be the greatest event ever or the worst thing in the history of man in order to sell papers (the Post's sportswriters should be on a permanent lithium IV for the problem, IMHO). But first day stories are notoriuosly vague as conflicting information is received, and other information is unavailable due to deadlines.
Let's see what the follow-up stories in Sunday's papers have to say, when new information is given out and new angles to the story can be investigated (though I have no doubt if structural problems are found, the Post and News will play up the "DEATH TRAIN" angle).
Up until "instant 24 hour news" the rule in journalism was "if it ain't baked yet, we'll report it when it's ready" ... you'd end up with a short, dry story ("wo we covered it") with what facts and attributable statements you had and would end your story with "investigation is continuing" ... oh HELL, what's the point of even saying this? :)
Don't mind me ... between today's "instant news" and gasbags on "talk radio" we're frigging screwed. But once upon a time, there was a respectability to "journalism" ... really. As a result of today's excuses for "journalism" though, we have freaking TOM CRUISE dictating American war policy. Nevermind. Heh.
And you think this is something new? It seems to me that this has been going on for a while. Remember why they call it yellow journalism.
Agreed ... but once upon a time, there was DISTASTE for it ... today, that nonsense grabs the ratings and people BELIEVE the nonsense they were told. "Where's my pa?"
Here ... check this if you've got a few minutes ...
http://www.onlineconcepts.com/pulitzer/pulppr.htm
Don't let the media whores give you a dose ... :)
Rest assured that you are not alone. There is still distaste for it. Those who do these things, however, just don't care. They never did. They have always made their livings by appealing to the lowest common denominator. Makes it hard for those who aspire to something better.
RATINGS are EVERYTHING today. If we switch the bastards off (like MSNBC which is FINALLY having their crap catch up with them) and when a phone call arrives, asking us what we're watching right now, we answer with "BULLWINKLE" or what our favorite newspaper is, we answer the "WEEKLY WORLD NEWS" (heh) then it will GET the attention that the poo flingers deserve.
Haven't we had ENOUGH shi'ite? :)
"The ratings are in and YOU are out." 'word.
Hey, The Weekly World News is the only paper out there covering the really hard news. Nobody else picked up on the meetings between the space alien and Bill Clinton (or was it George Bush I?).
Why the cover up in the main stream press? Maybe it's anti-alien (and I don't mean folks from other countries) parinoia?
Heh. Mister Natural sez, "don't let yer dick run yer life." (DC CAB) ... yep, we got that fishwrap up here in Smallbany too. Weekly World News, Post, Daily Nukes, Midnight Sun ... hard to tell the difference. I say SQUEEK, dammit ... SQUEEK! (Ren and Stimpy) ... but rest assured, if space aliens took over the country, it WOULD be on Larry Klingon Live. Otherwise, stand down krischeen soldier, Bill O'Reilly will tell you WHAT to think and when. Geez. :)
To comment on the era of "24-hour journalism", the pressure to be first has always been present when you have competing news sources. CNN, MSNBC, and other organizations of the like have only intensified that pressure. Big networks today now tend to concentrate on depth and on uncovering those stories that take more time to make clear. They still want to be first no doubt, but nobody is scooping CNN when it comes to say international breaking news. (except for maybe Fox) We all know that when a war breaks out, most people turn to CNN to see what's happening but then we turn to Rather, Jennings, and Brokaw to make sense of it all. But even that seems to be changing...
Nappy
So? Didn't General John Wayne win the most critical battles of WWII and lead the Green Berets in their fight with the Viet Cong?
:0)
Best not dis "da Duke" or SeaBeach Fed's gonna kick yer butt. Heh. Yeah, I actually have a copy of that stupid album John Wayne (his real name was MARION, 'nuff said - dunno what it is about faggots like him and Jedgar Hoover, but they're *SO* butch) ... heh. And don't BUG my butt, their proclivities were PROVEN and part of court records, so BITE me. :)
>>> Up until "instant 24 hour news" the rule in journalism was "if it ain't baked yet, we'll report it when it's ready" ... you'd end up with a short, dry story ("wo we covered it") with what facts and attributable statements you had and would end your story with "investigation is continuing" <<<
Kevin;
Sometimes our view of "the good old days" becomes a little hazy with time. I have done historical research in newspapers from the early 19th century to the early 21st century, and quite frankly, I can find no era where a certain amount of sensationalism and slanting of the news toward the viewpoint of the reporter is not evident.
It is true that now the competition to get instant news on the air causes a degradation of editorial control, but I bet back in the days when reporters ran to the pay phones to call in breaking stories to competing daily newspapers, corrections in subsequent editions were common.
Tom
I agree ... maybe it's just that MOST editors had better BS detectors. I kinda overgeneralized here about other things lately that bother me in the "trade" that aren't appropriate for discussion here. I saw it as just another example though of these external irritations. "death train" indeed ... sorry ...
The sides appear to have been installed similarly to Miami Metreorail, which got concrete noise barriers after the train was operating in service.
I watched them build this thing. Of course I couldn't get closer than the sidewalk. So I know from my own observations that the sides were attached after the basic structural pieces were put in place. I just don't know how well -- or poorly, as the case may be -- the sides were attached or what sort of impact the design specs call for them to withstand.
Yes, it's a sensational headline. But it is actually true in this case. And I see nothing in the article itself that isn't just a straight reporting of the facts as well as they are known right now.
Actually that's a sad statement. Intermixed with what few facts the reporter gathered was a LARGE amount of disattached OPINION. "The little engine that KILLED?" I shudder to think of what this is telling people. It may have been a freak accident, a one of a kind weirdity. All people are going to come away with from how the Daily Snooze reported it is (and I quote) "I'll *NEVER* ride the "death train."
Will you? (see my point?) No matter WHAT the outcome, the "Nooze" has already decided. That is NOT the job of journalism. At least NOT until the evidence and analysis is done by people who know the difference between a pipe wrench and a cutting key.
That's how the Media is in all situations. Look at all of the major cable news stations, CNN, Headline, Fox News, MNSBC, CNBC, etc...
They have all this 'War on Terror' and 'America Strikes Back'.
As always, it's just a massive propaganda campaign for the government to say to us that we're the doing the 'right thing'.
Yep, and PRECISELY why I watch "CatDog" and "Beavis and Butthead" if I want intellectual stimulation from the media. :)
What's REALLY sad is we have a HEARST newspaper in Albany and amazingly, they actually POSSESS journalistic ethics. Speaks volumes about your "instant news" channels. Fortunately for my own personal sanity, I live in the sticks. I can watch gnats ball. Beats the CARP out of what Tom CRUISE thinks. Heh.
Then again, most of us alive today don't remember when Connie Chung or Geraldo Rivera were actually SERIOUS journalists ... well, sorta. :)
The Hearst papers have decentralized over the years. From WRH controlling everything in his publications, the chain allows far more local control than some others (cough, cough, Gannett, cough, cough). But most of American journalism had moved away from their "yellow journalism" of the late 19th century ... until that day in 1973 when one Rupert Murdoch arrived on U.S. soil and bought the San Antonio Express-News, which was a run-up on his purchase of the Post in December 1976.
The Express-News -- now owned by Hearst, BTW -- was where Murdoch tested his Aussie jornalism style in the U.S. first (my favorite, a 60-point aboive the fold head "Thugs hijack beauty salon" while below the fold in about a 24-point head "Mao, 82, dies." Oh well, at least they put in a mug shot of the old guy). He carried that on to the Post, and the sensationalist style is excatly what TV news assignment editors want for their 5 and 6 p.m. telecasts.
And while the all-news channels want to be like the networks, they know unless they're flashy enough to catch your eye, their ratings will stink, so while they'll never admit it, Rupert's style is what the 24/7 news channels emulate when a major, or minor, story breaks (and this was true even before Fox News hit the air).
Yeah. there's a GANNETT (read that as CIA) paper around here too, the "Schenectday Gasjet" (a PITIFUL piece of crap) that you can take solace in bleeding USA Today DRY ... heh. But yeah, once again, sorry for my strong viewpoints here, but I was raised in journalism (my FIRST choice out of High Skrewl) and consider it as scared as being a priest (despite the recent problems) as something that you either do RIGHT, or you get OUT of it ...
I look upon journalism as being every bit as sacred and as demanding as the oath of office every civil servant takes, a SWEARING that they will ALWAYS do the right thing, not pass on a dose of the clap and not screw the public to which they are URGENT. If civil servants risk habing their throats slashed for misdeeds, (and ONCE upon a time CEO's and their pet politicians) then JOURNALISTS should be lynched also for misconduct and failure to preform their *CONSTITUTIONAL DUTIES* ... but it is the BASIS of the first amendment and the justification for a "free press" in the FIRST place as a check and balance upon the government that I place this stuff so seriously.
Once again, my obsessions with politics are ALSO the same reason for my obsession for the duties of "the press" ... if criminal negligence in the performance of "official duties" is dismissed, then I might as well stick up a Mobil station, it's all the same. Once again, don't mind me, there's "freedom of the press" for a REASON and it AIN'T being served. :(
As always, it's just a massive propaganda campaign for the government to say to us that we're the [sic] doing the 'right thing'.
Really? Sometimes it's struck me as a "massive propaganda campaign" against the government to say to us that we're not doing the 'right thing.'
You don't read enough leftist rags or listen to Sam on Sunday morning.
The media generally care only about selling cornflakes and turning a profit. Thus the hype. Sometimes its pro govt, sometimes anti. Either way, it's whatever sells.
You meant to tell me there's a LEFT WING radio talk show? WHERE?!?! :)
I don't listen to radio talk shows much any more. There used to be one or two women on WABC, I think, -- one was named Joy "Bay-Har" --who seemed somewhat to the left -- or maybe that was only after litening to Bob Grant. Then there was -- I forget his name -- whose sidekick was named Robin Quivers.
NPR is generally left wing. You might find one there.
Robin Quivers! Yeah, she and Howard Stern were radio buttbuddies for a LONG while ... I remember her as a newscaster on WTIC or whatever AM out of Hartford ... amazing where paths in breadcasting (spelling intentional) might lead ya ...
The one thing you learn in journalism is "photo-ops" and "follow the foaming gasbag ... you'll get a USEFUL soundbite for the 6" ... ack.
There are a few -- though Diane Rheem on NPR is the only one with any national network to speak of.
Unlike New York, ABC actually owns two talk radio stations in the Bay Area -- one conevative (KSFO) and one liberal (KGO, which gets higher ratings, IIRC). But they haven't been able to do a decent syndication deal so far, even though ABC tried test marketing on weekends, first with Mario Cuomo, then with Jim Hightower, and then with KSFO's Bernie Wolf before giving up and going with coservative talker Mark Davis out of ABC's WBAP in Fort Worth.
Placing gasbags to the left of center to balance the gasbags to the RIGHT of center STILL don't solve the problem of OPINION replacing FACT. While it's nice to hear that not ALL talk radio gasbags are right wingers, they're STILL GASBAGS ...
Whatever happened to FACTS, or TRUTH and not putting something on the air if it wasn't PROVEN as truth? I guess that's my own dilemma such as I posted recently with both sides of the "Clinton knocked down WTC along with no he didn't" ... if we actually tune in this crap for TRUTH, well ... I can only put ALL of what we call "urinalism" these days in the context of Howard Beale ...
Go rent the film "NETWORK" ... GROK the truth about what we're sold today ... seriously ... take it *ALL* in ... that was the knee upon which the crap we're peddled today turned ... no joke. It was one of Paddy Chaefsky's (sp?) greatest works. :(
I used to know a guy who was pretty far to the right. Eventually I observed enough of him that I could truthfully say that he was "so far to the right he wrapped around the back and came out on the left".
Heh. We had a syaing years ago that if you really twirled too far off center, you'd swing the pendulm right over the top and come down on the other side of the fencepost. I'm personally a radical fundamentalist middle of the roader, and to tell the truth, ain't lost my lunch in a LONG time swinging about the axis. It's COMFORTING at times watching others twirl and turn blue. :)
Looks like Bombardier is having a little financial trouble. Now, is that the cause of, or caused by, them making crappy products?
Link to story
Interestingly, the only mention of trains is at the end:
The transportation division, the world leader in rail equipment, continues to rack up orders despite problems with high-speed cars sold to Amtrak.
Apparently that is pertaining to there Aerospace division of Bombardier. that was expected of a them to lay off people because the Airlines have lost money after 9/11 so they will slow down on buying new planes.
as far as them still Racking up orders, they are and still will because they are the manufacturers of the most sophisticated and high quality rail vehicles world wide. if they were a piece of crap, then they would've gone out of business or lost a lot of money.
Yeah the acela is having problems in the Trucks of the Locomotives, but the other recent problems that happened to the whole project is Amtrak fault.
also just to let you know That the Air Train Cars are of the Same type used for the Rail System in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia. those cars are very Reliable and Came in trouble free (not counting the normal niggling of Rail vehicles)
It's a shame that their subway cars don't measure up to the high quality of their other railcars.
Actually the Subway cars do measure up. the T-1's in Toronto and the MBTA cars are examples of Bombardiers high Quality. i think the reason why the R-142's didn't measure up (but now is showing its reliability) is because of #1 everybody is saying that the Plattsburgh Plant is filled with poor quality. to justify this, back in 1997/1998 they hired inexperienced workers from Plattsburgh to work at the plant. the project was almost delayed when the workers screwed up on the electricals, and wiring. other smaller snafus occured because of lack of experience. this was all media generated information. but now, the hiccups are cured and the newer sets are coming by the crowds. and the m-7's should shine.
Intriguing thoughts...
It's a pity not a lot of posters' here know this as they flame Bombardier as a whole whenever it comes to accidents like these.
i know it a shame that they don't know. it shows that they only know what goes on in there world. nothing wrong with that though
It GENUINELY is, because overall, Bombardier has done VERY well with ALL they make, from jetskis, to JETS to TTC's finest. I dare to say that the REAL problem is that Bombardier was forced by politicos to use clueless upstaters to build trains ("Mde in New York" program) and while I'm an upstater myself, clearly something completely out of character for Bombardier has GOT to be behind all this ... Bombardier makes PASSENGER JET PLANES ... MANY airlines use them and according to what I'm told by a buddy of mine down at JFK, more than 60 of them EVERY DAY take off from the various airports around NYC. If the problems were systemic, we'd be saying "screw Al Qaeda, let's hang Bombardier" ...
And for what it's worth, their trains around the world perform yeoman's service. So the question begs, "why are these trains not like the other ones?" Clearly there are some problems. Anyone with credentials willing to ask WHY? :)
It GENUINELY is, because overall, Bombardier has done VERY well with ALL they make, from jetskis, to JETS to TTC's finest. I dare to say that the REAL problem is that Bombardier was forced by politicos to use clueless upstaters to build trains ("Mde in New York" program) and while I'm an upstater myself, clearly something completely out of character for Bombardier has GOT to be behind all this ... Bombardier makes PASSENGER JET PLANES ... MANY airlines use them and according to what I'm told by a buddy of mine down at JFK, more than 60 of them EVERY DAY take off from the various airports around NYC. If the problems were systemic, we'd be saying "screw Al Qaeda, let's hang Bombardier" ...
And for what it's worth, their trains around the world perform yeoman's service. So the question begs, "why are these trains not like the other ones?" Clearly there are some problems. Anyone with credentials willing to ask WHY? :)
Bombardier's regional jets indeed have a fine record. As do most of their rail equipment. I'd say you answered your own question as to why their equipment for NYC has been sub-par: thank the politicians with their "made in New York" vote pandering. If they'd have kept their grubby fingers out of the mess, and let Bombardier build their rail equipment in La Pocatiere, we probably wouldn't be having these reliability problems.
Bombardier also makes freight rail cars for European railroads (tank cars, hopper cars etc.).
I do not believe the "upstate NYers" are any less capable of good work than anyone else. But they require good leadership, appropriate training and management, and an understanding that Bombardier expects and will reward them for error-free work.
Nope, the guys in Plattsburgh are SCREWED financially, paid Wal*Mart wagesb and were forced off welfare to build railcars. What exactly *IS* their motivation?
These are republican times. You *****GET***** what you ***PAY*** for.
its one of the reasons why we have these problems now.
Like I said, "know the score" ... and know a few from the plant ... "they tell me do this, I think it;s insane, but if they want a E-ring where a C-ring should go, who am *I* to argue?"
And like I've said, upstate is a *MESS* ... perhaps that lack of T1's and DSL and all those thing MODERN companies need might be part of the problem. Gotta love how Paturkey's all over H Carl McCall for asking NYNEX to get a job for his daughter - not a FUUGGING WORD about how the "Change NY people" or Paturkey's OTHER "butt-buddies" ***ARE*** NYNEX/Bell Atlantic, whatever they're calling themselves THIS week are. Nope.
FACT: We're an INTERNET SOFTWARE COMPANY IN "TECH VALLEY" that can't get anything beyond 33k BAUD for a FUGGING DIALUP because of the "backroom deals" of Joe Bruno, George Paturkey, and OTHER SCUMBAGS of the REPUBLICAN RIPOFF ILK and so I can't afford medicals, can't afford to get my teeth fixed, and our "Made in New York" company is phucked over by these scumbags. Tech Valley, MY ASS ...
Bombardier trains suck as far as WE know because of Joe Bruno (Mr "Let's kill rent control" and his butt buddy Paturkey) ... this state's in SERIOUS doodoo as long as these scumbags remain in office. Sorry, but there's the reality. It'll be up everyone else's butt once Paturkey gets re-selected ... we've been SCREWED and the pain hasn't even started yet.
Bombardier's screwage is nothing less than that given every other citizen of New York. only difference is that the PRESS is also a paid co-conspirator ... long live the animal farm, long live the Paturkey.
Great pictures of the old Broadway Bridge being demolished in 1961. I would assume from locations that the old bridge aimed towards the Marble Hill projects from the new back yards of Kingsbridge Depot over the waters East of the current location possibly through or closer to Exterior Street. My question is since some pictures show the Broadway IRT on the second level of the old bridge, how much of the 1 line was torn down to realign the tracks and was there a second 225 Street station built to accomodate the realignment?
LINK
I womder if 41 years ago they had shuttle bus service between 215 and 225 Streets?
I *LIVED* there at the time, and the alignments REAMINED the same. And YES, there WAS a bus during the demolition and reconstruction that left from 225, along Bailey Avenue and over to 207th and across the bridge back to Inwood that connected the lost train.
But the ALIGNMENTS remains identical from the old bridge to the new one, I was there and my testimony is real. :)
I have not ridden on board the AirTrain Newark but I have seen it from Amtrak trains in the NEC and in pictures. The cars appear to be very similar. Did Bombardier build those also? If not, who did? Also, can an AirTrain Newark car run on AirTrain JFK or vice versa?
The cars appear to be very similar.
The cars are in no way similar. Well, they both have floors, ceiling, walls, and windows. Any they each service an airport. Oh, yes, they are both supposed to carry pax.
Airtrain Newark is a monorail, with a string of dinky little cars connected together.
JFK Airtrain runs on two -- standard gauge, IIRC -- rails, with a power 3rd rail and linear induction motors and has much bigger cars -- about the same length as an IRT car -- which are designed to run individually or, if loads require, coupled into up to 4-unit MUs.
Click on the links for two photos of the Newark monorail taken from a northbound NJT train.
Monorails need not be the weak, slow, uncomfortable machines that bombardier intalled in Newark. The Von Roll type monorails have to be the slowest and most rickety creations ever. To see what a monorail can be, look at the Seattle monorail, those Alweg type trains are smoother, faster, and quieter than any subway car I've ever seen. Those things make 55 MPH, and do it with only a hum of the engines, track (or Guideway) noise it nonexistant, since it's just rubber tired wheels on concrete. It's too bad that most people's exposure to monorails comes at such horrible contraptions as the EWR, Disney, and Philly zoo (to name just one of many such crappy things).
I really don't get the JFK Airtrain, is it a peoplemover? or is it a traditional subway? could it operate on the NYC subways if required (I know it's ato and all, but with an operator and all, would everything match up)? And why have both 3rd rail and LIM power? Is the third rail there to act as a return or supply for the power to the LIM? And why Airtrain in the first place? I know that this was debated out a while back, but why not do a thing like the O'hare people mover? The El runs right onto the airport, offering a one seat ride, but the peoplemover moves people back and forth between the terminals and long term parking lot. This seems to make more sense to me, or was this a failure and I'm an idiot?
To answer at least some of your questions - AirTrain is more like a subway (with unattended operation). It uses standard gauge track and a 600VDC 3rd rail. It can't operate on regular subway tracks, but only because there is no ferrous plate in the trackbed to pull against for motive power. A subway car (subject to weight and clearance issues) could operate on the AirTrain system. As far as a peoplemover, AirTrain has as branch that is about 3.3 miles long (to Jamaica) and that is impractical as a people mover.
The 3rd rail supplies all propulsion power for AirTrain. The LIM is on the car, and there is only a ferrous plate in the trackbed. Here is a closeup of the LIM unit:
And here is a picture showing an AirTrain car on track with the plate as well as the LIM unit on the train. The boxes to either side of the LIM are antennas for communicating telemetry to the control center. They are not used for positioning the train at stations (there is a separate transducer, not seen in these pictures, for that):
What's with all the rust??
The wheels and couplers have a bit of surface rust because the cars aren't in regular use yet. The rail hasn't yet developed the dark brown/black grime typical of older rail. Take a look the next time you see a piece of replaced rail in the subway and you'll see it is a lot lighter color, more reddish-orange than brown/black, because it is new.
Old rail looks new and new rail looks old... quite odd. Anyways thanks for the info! :)
Just a question about LIM. Don't both parts -- stator and rotor -- in a conventional motor require power? If so, how does the LIM function with power to only one part, the one on the train?
Don't both parts -- stator and rotor -- in a conventional motor require power?
No. The simplest DC motor is probably a permanent magnet motor with magnets in the stator and coils in the rotor. You can change to coils in the stator if you are willing to trade higher power requirements for less weight.
Wouldn't the LIM-powered car still require some other power source for lights and HVAC? Or can that power be received through induction from the LIM-rail?
there is a 3rd rail
OK, that just brings me back to my original question. How can the Airtrain's LIM use just an unpowered piece of ferous metal in the roadbed as the other part of the motor? If the stator in a conventional motor can use permanent magnets instead of being powered, is Airtrain going to use permanent magnets in the roadbed or something powered or neither of the above? If neither, why does it work, if a conventional motor requires either permanent magnets or a powered stator?
Air Train Newark isn't a railroad, it's more like a people mover. The cars have a seating capacity of about 8, total of maybe 20 standing; the train is segmented like a worm and has five of these little cars; it runs on a concrete monorail guideway with rubber tires. I wouldn't really call it a train in the classical railroad sense of the word. The cars on Newark Air train couldn't run on regular rails at all.
I do have a question for you - my Dad saw on one of the DC newscasts a story about "new cars" on the Orange line; they were handing out oranges at one of the stations (Dad thought it might bave been Vienna Fairfax) - my question is: is this just more CAF stuff or are these the Alsthom cars?
thanks,
wayne
The new cars were CAF cars, the Alstom cars won't be here for a few more years. If you look back a bit in the archives, Ballston/1C and I were contemplating the car assignments once the Green Line received its share. It seems that the Green Line has, and the Orange Line is getting its cars now. Six car trains of CAF cars will run on the Orange line. For every 6 CAF cars added, 3 4 car trains can become 6 car trains. The goal is to have all 6 car trains when all the CAF cars arrive.
Do you need pictures of them for the WMATA page here? I can contribute some if you need them.
1. Do any connections exist that permit NYCTA Rolling stock to access it and vice-versa?
2. Is it due for renovation and is there and info in it?
1. AFAIK, no. There is an unused bellmouth in the 63rd Street subway tunnel that could be opened into the yard but it is not cut through. This is not to be confused with the lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel, which is for the LIRR and which will soon be extended into or under Sunnyside yard.
2. Many changes are in the works in connection with the LIRR to GCT project. For example, a new RR station is planned. I'm not sure if any affect the current Sunnyside Yard proper. Many purists get exercised when someone confuses Sunnyside Yard with Yard A or some of the other trackage in the area.
Where is the new station going to be? Is it going to be near the 7 line?
Where is the new station going to be? Is it going to be near the 7 line?
Right on the mainline, beneath Queens Boulevard. It will be served by Penn Station trains, not by trains using the 63rd Street tunnel. The FEIS puts the middle of the station on the west side of Queens Boulevard, with walkways and staircases from the viaduct's pedestrian walkway to the platforms (two side and one island) and Skillman Avenue.
So it'll be directly under the 7, but not directly under a station.
Mark
The new station will be located directly beneath the 7 line, where it, and Queens Blvd. cross the 4 tunnel tracks to Penn Station. Stairs, and I believe elevators will connect to the new Queens Blvd. bridge.
Does that mean that Rawson Street is the closest subway station ?
The multi-billion dollar plan to do nothing more than move the LIRR's downtown transfer point from Brooklyn to Queens is still showing life:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=5487233&BRD=1841&PAG=461&dept_id=112709&rfi=6
Except now it is at least $3 billion, and the reporter is under the impression that LIRR trains would take this route, rather than new shuttles from Jamaica.
This site has heaped scorn on this idea, but it continues to live. Are they really considering it? Or are people that afraid of upsetting Brookfield?
(This site has heaped scorn on this idea, but it continues to live. Are they really considering it? )
You bet they are. It both helps, and hurts, the right people.
The plan even got a mention on the Wall Street Journal's editorial page last Monday in Robert Bartley's column. The column deals mainly with reviving the Lower Manhattan area and the part about the LIRR plan (and PATH) is buried in the third to last paragraph from the end, but the fact that the WSJ's offices are back in the World Finanical Center and their editorial page editor emeritus is mentioning the LIRR Jamaica-Flatbush Ave.-Manhattan link means it's still on the minds of a lot of influential people, even if there are far better ways to spend $3 billion.
It's a bone-headed idea, but hopefully it'll fade from attention as Lower Manhattan gets back on its (economic) feet.
I keep expecting it to fade as well. But then it keeps coming back.
Now the new angle is they say it would provide better access to JFK. Almost makes me wonder if they're thinking of using the AirTrain itself (when it finally gets going) as the shuttle. But AirTrain is only three 60 footers. Or maybe they're thinking of running their LIRR shuttles mixed in with the occasional AirTrain that goes to Jamiaca OPTO, then on to JFK ZPTO (like the monorail to Haneda in Tokyo).
At any rate, there seems to be some political clout here, and I don't think we've heard the end of it. Gird up.
Kind of hard to do that unless the feds allow the airport PFC-funded Airtrain to play on LIRR tracks and stations.
Pataki has been promising it from the beginning as a 1-seat ride to Penn. Phase I is Jamaica, though, until East Side Access frees up some Penn platforms. Phase II is 1-seat all the way in, maybe even before ESA, if you believe the hype. They did an RFP for ways to do an immediate Penn AirTrain a year ago, but nothing's been heard since.
That's what they've been saying, anyway. Some guv rep. said it again a few months back.
"Phase II is 1-seat all the way in, maybe even before ESA, if you believe the hype.""
That will not happen. Insuficient capacity, and far too disruptive to the rest of the schedule. As it is, AirTrain (when it rolls after the current investigation is complete and modifications are made) will be removing the incentive and wisdom of devoting a lot of $$$ to push this one-seat concept.
But since ESA is underway, the MTA can look forward to a date later in the decade when they will say "we have to start figuring out how we're actually going to run this service."
(It's a bone-headed idea, but hopefully it'll fade from attention as Lower Manhattan gets back on its (economic) feet.)
It's unlikely to fade. It is true that Downtown will only be competitive with Midtown for major corporate offices is suburbanites can get there -- without having to interact with us Brooklynites on the subway. Downtown will not disappear without it -- it would evolve into a place of residence/work for entrprenuers (who tend to live in the city) and their growing firms. But new companies pay less rent.
The RPA proposed several ways of accomplishing suburbs to Downtown expresses, none of which screwed the suburbs but all of which cost money. For MetroNorth, these involved actually building the Second Avenue Subway, something the real estate powers don't want to pay for. MetroNorth riders would come Downtown on a Second Avenue Express that hooked in from Grand Central.
But this is quick, dirty, and cheap. It not only helps the right people, it screws the right people as well -- Brooklynites, powerless victims represented by predatory morons at the state level.
"It not only helps the right people..."
My point is, as I understand it, this Brookfield scheme still will not provide a one-seat ride. So if you're a LIRR rider, you xfer to the new shuttle at Jamaica, instead of xfering to the many subway lines at Flatbush or Penn.
So nothing is gained for the LIRR rider. Much is lost for current subway riders. I can't believe the MTA and consultants really believe this is an improvement, EVEN for those that it is supposed to be a boon for. A colossal waste of precious funds.
It has to be a charade to make a large property owner feel better about life. There doesn't seem to be an alternate explanation for this thing's staying power.
They can't take the A/C Cranberry tunnel away. It is the most ludocris thing I ever heard. Both A/C trains get packed, and you can't just send them through Rutgers, because they would be missing many stops.
There is no way in hell that the plan is ever gonna happen.
The disruption in subway service would cause a huge outcry.
And the MTA would lose lots of money. Not gonna happen Silverstein.
Today, saw a M-7 on the Far Rock Line. Looks as f it was in service, though only 3 peoplewere on it (the train was 5 mins after the previous one, so there wouldn't be anyoneon that line anyway). THe sign said 'Penn Station', and the train looks really nice
It wasn't "in service," as that implies revenue service. The train was "in testing." Revenue service is at a future, unspecified date -- perhaps later this fall if all goes well with the testing.
Let's hope it has more luck in testing than the JFK Airtrain!
saw it blow by jamaca today missed it at atlantic av.
They've been testing it all over the system this week. It was doing regular passes on the Babylon line around noon.
You can't miss them, they look nothing like the M-1's.
They supposedly accelerate a lot better (more like NJ arrows), but I've seen them leave stations and it's still a soft start. Though they can get rolling if they want, even at speed, I've heard. BBD claims 2.0 mph/s, but for such an overweight railcar (40,000 lbs more than the M-1), I wonder if the acceleration rates will be dropped when they enter service >:(
Being that they're full length cabs I seriously doubt this would cheer up Salaamallah fans!!!
yea ... no lol
Well there was a power outage around Canal Street, all trains were not moving, for a good 20 minutes. When I found out from the T/O, I told people that no trains were running downtown, and if they wanted service to brooklyn, take the 2 or 3 to Atlantic Avenue and transfer there to continue service downtown. People were asking alot of questions, coming to me, and it was great, hearing all the thank you's. I went to 34st about after trains were resuming, but because of the huge delay Q trains were not coming downtown, simply cause there were no Q trains coming up to 57 Street. So people were asking questions still, so I was happy to give directions that were correct. An elderly couple thanked me with several other people when I got on my train to go to Canal Street. It was great helping.
To The List:
As of September 26, the fifth R-142A train was accepted for the 4: 7686-7690 and 7706-7710. Highest delivered were 7721-7725.
R-142s 6801-6805 & 7051-7055 were doing burn-in on the 5.
As of September 25, R-143s 8213-8220 were accepted for service on the L (but not M OPTO). Highest delivered was 8229-8232.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
So by estimate: how many R143s are on the L?
There are 104 R-143s accepted for passenger service, total. 8117-8124 is technically accepted but dedicated to CBTC testing. 32 cars are modified for the M with AAS software and (I think) a "shuttle switch" in the door control circuit.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Something interesting: every weekend, the same 16 cars have been showing up on the M shuttle and I hear that they stay in ENYD all week afterwards! Even the same 4 car gap sits at FP every weekend! Car numbers to come. They do not use these cars on the L, yet they have L strip maps. Also, the shuttle switch doesn't work because it is not wired to operate with both sides open at Bway/Myrtle middle! Connections are missed! Upon arriving, the t/o opens the Manhattan side, closes, changes ends then opens the Queeens side. If a Manhattan bound J comes in at that point, they have to use the stairs to get to the other side. Finally, the exteriors of the R143's are filthy. There is some problem with them going through the Canarsie car wash. Again, I will attempt to get to the bottom of this, but no promises. Perhaps supervision does want the hourlies to know too much!
This is progress......aren't things supposed to get BETTER when new things arrive? The walk-through shuttle was a good service. I can't believe they can't open the doors on both sides! As for the dirt, that's also ridiculous. Don't they think of these little things when ordering new equipment?
I guess not!
I noticed one of the car numbers being 8134.and if I'm right,they do use that set on the L cause I think I've seen them there before.
The set with 8134 has not seen service on the L since 9/7/02 according to what I have been told. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a spotter to give me car numbers every weekend. We will check for a pattern.
How do they change the inside strip maps ?
I don't know the answer to your question, but I wanted to add that it doesn't seem very simple. It seems the new generation of cars are much less flexible, meaning that they are not easy to change routes on. Gone are the days of simply changing the rollsigns. It seems once an R142 or R143 are assigned to a route they are there for a long time.
The MTA doesn't derive from car assignments too much anyway. If a train will run on a different line for only a single afternoon (R142 on the 6, see www.orenstransitpage.com for pics, it ran in place of the usual Redbird that was sent out), there is no need to change the signs. If the move was permanent, then they can do it and it only takes about 30 seconds to change from what I hear.
That could have been handled by offering a long, flat graphic display which would present the route electronically, highlighting stations as they are visited. Any route could be selected in the conductor's control area from a menu.
Of course this would add expense in purchase and maintenance.
I really like that idea! Like you said though, it would have been more expensive - but the cars were expensive anyway! It would have made them a bit more flexible though. It would have been easier to switch an L train to an M train, for example, at basically the flip of a switch.
But then again, the people who wrote the system requirements didn't even recognize a requirement to be able to change the automated announcements from time to time when the designations of intersecting routes change.
See, I find that a necessity on the NYC subway system. As there are so many intersecting routes and so many different ways to run the trains. Not being able to change the automated anouncements from time to time would be fine on on other systems where a train can only be run one or two different ways.
"See, I find that a necessity on the NYC subway system."
So do I. But if they overlooked that necessity, no wonder they overlooked some other very reasonable features.
It works when all the lines are self-contained and don't share revenue tracks with each other, as in Boston, Philadelphia and Montreal. But in systems like New York and London's sub-surface lines, the routes share trackage and if trains need to rerouted or reassigned to other lines, that's where the problems occur. Why they overlooked this, I can't understand. I've pointed it out to conductors that the strip maps and canned voices don't properly announce the transfers or that the train identifies itself as an express when it's local. But there really isn't much they can do about that other than shut the voices off and do manual announcements. But that doesn't change the interior strip maps, which on the 2, 4, 5 and 6 still show the N and the R as the only two Broadway BMT lines and the Q as a 6th Avenue IND line. The least the TA can do is replace those maps. It shouldn't be any harder than replacing any of the in-car advertisements.
The 5s maps are correct, last I checked.
No, the #5 maps are not correct.
They still show only the N and the R on Broadway and the B and D stopping at Atlantic Ave together with a 6th Avenue Q. No W bullets are to be found. But at least the announcements are correct.
"But at least the announcements are correct."
Maybe on the 5. Just heard the same old pre-July 2001 announcements on a 6 today.
I meant on the 5. Also on the 4, which also announces "The next, and last, stop is . . .", which I like.
A few 6 trains have that upgrade as well, including up-to-date announcements. Most do not, and nobody's touched our 2 yet. I like the changes except the one that splits the old "FOO ST NEXT" into "THE NEXT STOP IS" and "FOO ST" -- the cardinal rule of rotating electronic signage is that it should present the necessary information in as few lines as possible.
Of course they haven't touched the 2. It takes forever to get anything improved on the 2. I have yeat to ride a 6 train with the upgraded transfers, but I'm glad to see the TA is fixing the transfers.
they can change it if it goes wrong. however for the conductor it is time consuming so they will just leave it alone or fix it will the train is running to its destination.
Who changes the ads in the subway cars? Can't they change the line maps at the same time too? The current service plan is going to stay that way for some time now, so I don't see why not.
The advertising contractor changes the ads on a schedule that in no way meshes with what line a train will be assigned to on a given day.
David
Maybe so, but somebody needs to change those maps. Broadway has the N, Q, R and W trains, not just the N and the R. 6th Avenue has the B, D, F and V trains, not the B, D, F and Q. Plenty of R142s and R142As lay up in the yards on weekends and late nights. Surely they can order new line maps and put them in the trains that are not in service.
Yes, the maps should be replaced, but it has to be done in coordination with re-recording the announcements since they're designed to work together.
David
I agree that the announcements need to be corrected (although I don't think anything needs to be rerecorded, since it all seems to be concatenative), but why is coordination necessary? Isn't it better to have a correct map even if the announcements are incorrect, or correct announcements even if the map is incorrect, than to have both incorrect?
Because people will hear an announcement and think, "Well, the SIGN says..." or see the sign and think, "Well, the VOICE says..."
David
Better they scratch their heads (and consult the system map or ask other passengers) than hop off at Atlantic in search of the B train.
"or ask other passengers"
My experience (in another country admittedly) is that people always do that anyway regardless of how many informaion services you give them. When I change trains at Leicester (UK) on my commute to work, there are: (1) large, very legible electronic signs on the platforms; (2) a reasonably audible public address system; (3) a destination indicator on the front of the train; (4) stickers in the train windows listing all stops; (5) the conductor on the train announcing the stops on the train's p.a. system; (6) staff on the platform shouting out the stops. Yet people still come up to passengers and ask where the train is going.
but changing the maps is expensive.It costs alot of money to get it done.That money can go to other more important things.Besides,today I rode an R142A on the 4 for the 1st time ever and the strip maps had the old connections but still make the current ones.There were 4 sets of R142A's on the 4 today.The one I rode today was head car number 7661 from Utica Av-Woodlawn,laying up in the yard upon arrival at Woodlawn.
Then maybe they should cover them up with another ad or something else until they have the money to replace the maps. I would think changing those line maps is no more harder than changing the in-car ads. No need to confuse riders at major transfer points like Times Square, Union Square or Atlantic Avenue.
Well, not only expense, but realize, and this doesn't only apply to children, you have a lot of people with nothing better to do than to destroy stuff, especially expensive stuff.
If Kawasaki were to have done this, the TA or whoever whould be replacing it every other day.
to answer your question, to change the strip map first they must take it out of where it is above the window and put another strip map up there, and because the subway lines are already programmed in the control master, they just pick a line that the train will be running then go on ahead. very simple and flexible as i see it. however it is a major inconvenience to change the strip maps in the cars above the windows because it takes too much time. so, for example if a 5 train is going to run on the 2 line or vise versa the conducter or motorman will program the map not in use and the people will refer to the ticker (the digital signing that tells the next stop and time and destination. sometimes (or most of the time) from what i witnessed, the train operators don't turn off the map when a train is switched from another line, and it blinks away the wrong info on the map.
If a train is laid up in the yard, let's say during middays, nights or weekends, that's when they should change the line maps. I mean it! I'm sick of seeing the N and the R being the only two Broadway lines and the B, D, F and Q stopping at Broadway-Laffayette!
Yes, I've seen that happen whenever they run an R142 5 train on the 2 (which by the way makes the same incorrect transfer announcements as the R142s normally assigned to the 2). You'll see Jackson Avenue blinking, but the train will actually be at 72nd Street. It's weird.
I've noticed that announcement bit in reverse. Twice, I've found myself on 5 trains with 2 strip maps -- i.e., they're assigned to the 2. Announcements are up-to-date. Yet when those same trains go back home to the 2, they forget all the service changes!
no your wrong.When an R142 is on the 5,even though the strip map may show the incorrect transfers,the voice announcements still make the current transfer announcements.Example: "This is 59St. Transfers available to the 6,F,N,R,and W trains." I heard this today while riding a R142A 4 train and the strip map had the transfers incorrectly.
What I meant to say is that when R142s with the 5 line strip maps are placed on the 2, they make the same incorrect transfers as the R142s that have the 2 line maps and are normally on the 2. This I know from riding those reassigned 5 trains.
They don't. They are set up for the L. Underneath the strip map, a message lights up in effect saying that the strip map is not in use at this time.
So thee are no automatic messages on the M shuttle?
I was refering to the strip map which is on L. The digital signs are M.
The strip map is nothing more than a plastic overlay and can be chaned out with a screwdriver.
On the R-142s (and probably 142A & 143) there is a fixed set of 63 light sockets that are programmed into the Automated Announcement System. Openings in the strip maps are designed to line up with, or block out, the appropriate light sockets as well as the directional arrow and specialized announcement panel.
Equipment is being delivered with signage pre-installed, but can easily be changed as cars are permanently moved from line to line. For example, the foremr "cobweb" cars (6300s, 6400s) were long ago delivered with "2" signs, but are all now equipped with strip maps for the "5."
Because the R-143s assigned to M OPTO is a secondary duty, they retain "L" strips, but the AAS has been programmed for the M as a compromise. Eventually all 212 R-143s are going to be permanently assigned to the L, until the first wave of R-160s joins them in a few years. I'm pretty sure at that time you'll see new cars being allocated to the J and M. How the mappage will be set up, who knows?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Does the L need 212 cars? Are they planning to actually run L trains more frequently with the new CBTC system?
"Does the L need 212 cars? Are they planning to actually run L trains more frequently with the new CBTC system?"
If there are 15 tph in rush hour (not 100% clear from the schedule if there are 12 or 15), and a round trip takes 90 minutes, they need 23 trains = 184 cars. Maybe they want to have plenty of spares until they are sure the system works properly.
Let's hope it's not that they expect CBTC to slow down the system so that they need more trains to maintain the same headway.
There will always be some cars out of service, for mainenance or repairs.
The current L weekday train requirement is 21 (168 cars). There will be 212 R-143s when they are all in, some of which will be spares and the rest of which will be assigned somewhere else (M?).
David
Cobweb?
However many cars are needed for the M on weekends, why not run them full-time on the M?
The inside strip map should have been a back-luminated, mylar roll sign.
Since it is not changed often, it would not break often. All the $$$ for high-tech gadgets and they have to pull out a screw-driver.
God will punish you for the mylar comment!!!! Mylar, all them stinkin R142 windows carved up. Not to mention those stinkin FibreGlas seat modules...eradication of hyroglphics requires four steps of abrasives and buffing with 3M MicroFinish compound. I'd rather paint blue and yellow lines. CI peter
Are these material toxic when burned?
The whole stinking R142 is plastic insulation and toxic when burned!!!
Mylar is like the laminate sheets you get from Staples to make up phoney vehicle ID cards....CI Peter
If they can be changed out with a screwdriver, why isn't the TA replacing them? There are currently four lines running on the Broadway BMT, not just two.
Even worse, why have trains built after 7/22/01 come from the factory with outdated strip maps and (in the case of all 2 trains and most 6 trains) with outdated announcement programs, even when those same trains have up-to-date announcements on the 5?
These are the 32 R-143s outfitted with AAS software for the M-Myrtle Ave. Shuttle:
8109-8112, 8113-8116, 8133-8136, 8137-8140, 8149-8152, 8153-8156, 8165-8168, 8169-8172.
From the description I got, they are moved into position from ENY every evening and some stay for the weekend.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
It seems to me the simple solution is:
1. Open S/B side.
2. Activate shuttle, walk to other end.
3. Activate new position, open N/B side.
Or can this not be done either?
There are only 8 set that are programed for uses on the M line. 4 set have to be transfered after PM Rush Hour Fridays for service on the M that night.
Robert
I did see 7696-7700 in service on the 4 on Friday. I could not tell who was coupled to 7696 though. 7700 was the south motor. Did anybody else see that train?
It's about time the R142As have made it into service on the 4. Haven't seen one there in about a month when I rode 7661.
Redbird days are numbered!
#7700 4 Lexington Ave Express
yes i have seen it. it was coupled with the number you just said. it was the only R-142A running that day. still alot of redbird on that line
How much to South bound trains tilt when on the curve just past Union Square, it seems to put a lot of stress on the 1st rail. Why was the tilt put there?
The tilt is natural, otherwise I don't think the train could hold the rails properly. It looks to be about 7 degrees.
wayne
>>> The tilt is natural, otherwise I don't think the train could hold the rails properly <<<
What do you mean by a natural tilt? Surely not that the ground was just naturally higher on one side than the other when they laid the track. If you are talking about banking of a turn, the amount of banking would be dependent on the design speed for the curve in question. If it is right after the station you would think the train would be going slow, so no bank is necessary, but if a train is accelerating as it leaves the station, the bank has to sufficient to take into account the speed of the last car as it goes around the curve.
Tom
The bank at Union Square is right in the station on the downtown side. The tracks curve to the left as the train comes to a stop, so the 4/5 on the express track tilt away from the platform, causing a big gap between it and the car's center door, while for the 6 on the local track, the cars tilt towards the platform, creating a gap at the ends of each car.
Forty Eight years ago today our family crossed the Colorado River at Yuma Arizona as we became Californians for the first time. At that moment I doubted I'd ever see or want to see New York again, even though I knew I'd terribly miss the Brooklyn Dodgers. Yet it took about nine months until my first summer before I really got used to my new home and without the Dodgers and the Sea Beach.
You know what? I had no desire to see NY ever again until one summer day in 1974 when I realized it had been 20 years and I came "home". Wow, what a bummer. A bummer, that is, that I took so long to see the Big City again. Trips in 1991 and 1999 were too few and far between, but I did come in 2000, twice in 2001 and once already this year, and I can hardly wait to come back on October 11 and see some of my railfan buddies, some of whom I will meeting in the flesh for the first time. It is true that I consider myself a Californian but there is no doubt what my favorite city is---and it is not LA or SF.
I've come to believe that we never completely get New York out of our system if we were born here and lived here at least the first dozen or so years of our lives. I happened to live in New York when it was really a hell of a place to grow up in, and about a decade or so when it hit the skids for a couple of decades. Get ready New York, Sea Beach Fred is getting ready to hit town.
All together now:
You better watch out, you better not cry.
Better not pout, I'm telling you why:
Sea Beach Fred is coming to town.
BTW, do you have a Brooklyn Dodgers cap? If not, you could probably get one at one of the Mets Clubhouse Shops.
I plan on going to the Mets shop if I can find out where it is. I have run into that God damn Yankee shop more times than I care to count but I haven't a clue where the Mets shop is. Any one out there to offer help?
Sorry for the late notice
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Hey folks,
Anybody know if there's an opening date set for the rebuilt platform at the Pavonia/Newport PATH station? I haven't seen anything indicating it's open yet, and I haven't had the opportunity to ride PATH in over a year.
Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
src="http://www.nyctrackbook.com/Images/Temp/cover.jpg"
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC
Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
I'm going there today. Will advise.
Checked out Pavonia yesterday. Side platform still closed and full of evidence of work in progress. Signs on site say that it will open "Fall 2002."
Checked out Pavonia yesterday. Side platform still closed and full of evidence of work in progress. Signs on site say that it will open "Fall 2002."
Thanks very much. Appreciated, and I'll include that in the book. Today's the last day of revisions (it goes to press tomorrow).
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
It's open, and looks very nice. It was open September 13, last time I was there before today. I stepped out of the train momentarily to snap the photo and jumped back on when the door-closing bell rang.
You're confused. That pic you shot is of the island platform at Pavonia. He's asking about the side platform. The side platform is still closed.
You mean the side-platform?
Wow, unlimited rides on R-9 1689, R-17 Redbird 6688, The Low V, BRT El Car 1227 (?), and the G-Money Car (the one we weren't allowed in at the Court Street Museum!!!) And for the streetcar enthusiasts Bklyn PCC 1001, Bklyn Convertible 4573, and Manhattan car 629.
And all for $6 or an annual membership card!!!
Yours truly was operator on 629 for most of the day... got in a couple of runs to Short Beach but mostly did shuttle duty, feeding passengers to the subway cars. Lots of SubTalkers there... I'll not try and enumerate (especially since I didn't have the chance to even set foot on the R/T equipment), but there were three that I met for the first time: Far Rockaway A Train, Steve Loitsch (whose ties to Branford go back farther than almost any of the rest of us - his Dad was an active member when he was a babe in arms), and Howard Fein - nice to put faces with the names! Oh, and 316 was out too... it made at least one run to Short Beach, perhaps two. For those of you who didn't make it today, there's always tomorrow, or you can come up and join us on SubTalk Sunday, 13 October, for "Fun with an Arnine", hosted by a whole bunch of us and featuring guest stars Selkirk and Nancy :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Guest stars?" Heh. We're gonna have to charge a fee then. :)
And to think, We're coming out in hopes of meeting everybody else.
Is there going to be an autograph session?:)
Heh. Well ... if you REALLY want one, I s'pose we could do that. Don't mind me if I doubt your sanity for the duration though. :)
..."or you can come up and join us on SubTalk Sunday, 13 October, for "Fun with an Arnine", hosted by a whole bunch of us and featuring guest stars Selkirk and Nancy :-)"...
and join other distant travelers, who'll be our guests also,
including Steve B ~ 8TH AVE EXP and David Cole, to name a few.
I'll be there too, to make sure we doesn't make a wrong turn
and all alignments and signals are proper.
So join us for a fun day on Sunday, October 13th @ Branford.
;| ) Sparky
I can't believe both S.B. Fred and Brighton Bob are going to be in town that weekend and are not coming up. Will someone try to convince them? Tell 'em anything such as the fall foliage on the Hutch/Merrit with be beautiful!!! They both said they want to railfan. They both like the oldies, what better way to railfan than in an R-9 to Short Beach? Think of the route to Short Beach as the Rockaway Branch.
We've been trying... guess they'd rather ride hippos in their natural habitat rather than an Arnine in captivity :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm working on it :)
--Mark
Wait a minute. I think I just figured out why the Bob and Fred Show won't be at Branford on the 13th:
There's no Triplex there!!
That's the one common denominator those two share.:)
And where is the D-Type he will see out on the road during his visit??
One thing I love at BERA over any other NYC Transit related Museum is that I, Me, Non-TA don't know jack (back then) could actualy move a subway car. Can't do that in the City, anywhere (maybe someone can hook you up with TA sim time but it ain't the same thing).
So no triplex, but they ain't gonna ride on a Standard on Broadway that weekend are they? If they come to BERA at least they can touch one and even climb on board.
You can always ride the subway 24/7 365 days a year, you can't ride an R9 like that or even OPERATE ONE but on 10/13 you might be able to...
I wish you can tell me how we can climb aboard the Standard. I tried on Saturday for about an hour!!! The storm door, even though its open a crack, doesn't budge. And Twiggy is probably the only person in the world who can fit through that small crack.
No the car is secured, we can open it. You should have just asked for it to be unlocked.
Looking forward to meeting Unca Steve and Unca Dave as well as several others I've tortured here regularly. And if I get a wrong lineup, don't forget ... I know what a shoe paddle is and know how to use it. :)
I'm looking forward also to see how well the AK's work. Heh.
It just a matter of lining the exiting switch properly and the
line up follows. The model board will be on auto and it's just
getting the arnine in and out between scheduled streetcar trips.
BTW, well also have 5 streetcars at least for a "Trolley Parade".
;| ) Sparky
Dang! That's no fun ... I was hoping to tickle some IJ's just to see how long Jeff's wiring would take to drop the trip and clear. Ya mean to tell me I'm coming all the way way out there and there won't be and clears to yeller in my cab window?!?!?! T'ain't FAIR I tell ya! Can't someone sit in the woodshed and drop a ball on me at least? Heh.
Trolleys?!?! Oh ... Nancy would LOVE to push pedal on a PCC ...
..."Trolleys?!?! Oh ... Nancy would LOVE to push pedal on a PCC"...
It's been discussed, we will see what we can do.
Kevin, since the Secretary is on Holiday, did you and Nancy receive
your membership cards yet? If you did, can you scan and e-mail me
a copy, so I can see what class membership you guys selected.
It'll help me on planning, what we can do on Sub-Talk Sunday and
I rather not discuss it on this board. Thanks.
;| ) Sparky
No problem ... will be doing email in about an hour ... you'll hear from me, so will Unca Lou ... procedures and expectations fulfilled cheerfully. (and yeah, we street legal, we've got our papers) :)
SUP and CO
I told him that...UGH
So you'll just have to pretend while you've got a red signal HOLDING you at the station that's it's another train vs. the BRT Convertable.
We won't be crossing the IJ to violate the Red signal because it's cause for disciplin just like in the TA, none of us want to be suspended :-(
Damn ... back in my day, bridging the joint (smoking them was frowned on) was HOW you closed up on your leader during rush hours. If we didn't key by and find the tail lights of the fearless leader and stop, we'd get yelled out for sending a conga line back across the dang bridge! :)
Do we at least get pawn balls of the yeller pursuasion? A NUN ringing a bell? Anything for "buzz buzz, let's go?" I still think "staging lights" would be fair ... that shunt's still wired in, no? Boowahaha. Heh.
Buzz buzz is part of the routine, & SOMEONE just installed a WD, so you better watch you speed coming in ... no "coming in with authority" on this line !
You'd LOVE me ... I was a WIMP in the cab who often brought her in "early" and had to "kick it" to hit the 10 car marker. One of the reasons I was hoping for an early early myself was to ride the line and get to know it. See if there's actual speed restrictions, possible timers, I *love* it ... makes it less than figuring the grade, knowing where the curves are and what they can take, note homeballs and see if they're "quirky" (and with Unca Jeff riding shotgun, no worries THERE) and all that kinda stuff you wanna know your first day on a new line.
But for all my bluster, I'm a WIMP in the cab. Always was, which is why I knew I wasn't cut out for it. I didn't have STONES. Of course, I didn't wear Buster Brown shoes either. I just craned my neck and didn't get off on reds in my window as I blew down a hill. I could wait for them to turn green. If you PACED yourself, you didn't have to brake ... I was one fo those who had to speed UP. Heh.
Only problem I have after 30 years, I remember the right PITCHES, but don't remember the speeds for the pitch (the growlers ... but we ain't getting ballztodawall here) ... it's the 10's, 15's and 35's I forget. Hope I can get a little time before I do a run ... but WD's, seen them, got to watch how they worked enough times ... if it's there, I know what I'm being told and ready to reel it in if they keep flashing at me. But they won't. Sadly, don't even have a trackmap of the place yet. But I'm trying to get my chops back together in advance.
Wow, sounds like a fun day. Sorry I couldn't make it, but other obligations had to take priority today. Hopefully I'll see some of you up in Hoboken tomorrow afternoon, and I'll be sure to make it up to Branford on October 13th.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
Jeff, I notice that there is a question mark after 1227's number in your post.
Aren't you sure of the number of BERA's best piece of rapid transit equipment?
They have a number of BRT El equipment and although I was pretty sure it was 1227 I put the question mark just in case it wasn't. By the way, even though coupling a BRT car with an IRT El car was probably sacreligious, it was coupled to the "G" Money car.
I honestly can't remember, is "G" a motorized car or a trailer?
"G" is a control trailer - no motors, but it has a control stand at one end (or is it both... I never have ridden on her, I'm always too busy with 629).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank You, Chris!
She must be a rare breed, I don't think I have ever seen a control trailer>
How rare I don't know... hopefully someone else out here does know and will answer. In the modern era it's not terribly unusual; essentially it's analagous to a cab control car on a locomotive-pushed commuter train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WHAT??!!! Jeff didn't know the number to one of Branford's most valuable pieces of equipment?! Why, I oughta call the cop's on him!
Shame on you Sarge! :)
We're not talking about 1689!!!!
1689!! Isn't that rated number 3!
It's Numero Uno in my book.:)
..."It's Numero Uno in my book.:)"...and Selkirk's TOOOO... >G<
;|) Sparky
And if Shoreline had an R-10 (I know it won't happen) in their collection, I'd be flipping a coin every time.:)
Might not have been BMT cars, but they were tough buggers to the end. Now in all sincerity, I have to spot the honor of "you'd best know what you're doing in the cab" to Unca Dougie's 1227 ... but an Arnine could be a handful too. Not like them wimpy SMEE's and what came later. Hell, an Orangutan could run today's toasters on wheels ...
And NO offense intended to today's motorpeople ... in all sincerity, if any of you folks I regularly torture can spot a day off on Sunday October 13th, come on up to Branford and we can spot you some cab time so you can see how NICE what you're running today is compared to what folks of my generation ran (at faster speeds) through the system ... you'll see why I said what I just said ... we'll even spot you a ten car marker to TRY to stop at. :)
[... you'll see why I said what I just said ... we'll even spot you a ten car marker to TRY to stop at. :)]
It's even harder with the Lo-V in toe ... I need much more practice :-)
Pull, spot, release. Pull, spot, release ... pull, spot, hold, ahhh. (OK, now is anybody still offended about dual angle cocks? If so, do NOT look under the Arnine) ... but yeah, manual lapping would make most "T/O's" *crazy* ... that's one of the reasons I'm suggesting that folks who think they're hot stuff in a "modern" subway car would really have an interesting experience with AMUE. Heh.
Ghods, I loved those cars ... "in control of your train" really MEANT something with the way the old air valves worked. Might also explain why DEPENDS were invented. Wasn't for NASA. :)
Before I operated it Saturday, I ran into the other cab to turn on the ceiling fans ... got to let her do all her moans & groans !
Was a great day for those of us who have been paying our dues, i.e. getting dirty on various cars, the line, building & grounds, etc. these past few years.
The crew was rather small, so the newer of us, rt, operators were given a chance to prove that we have been paying attention to our instructors.
I thoroughly enjoyed the priviledge of being able to operate the R-9/Lo-V train with Lou from Brooklyn as well as our R-17 with Stef.
Sunday night I even got to pull G back home from Short Beach with 1227, but this time with an instructor by my side.
I hope those of you that saw me over the two days didn't mind if I didn't spend too much time talking with you, as we were all very busy being rt crew, doing tours, running trolley shuttles to Sprague, or getting dirty ... yes Saturday & Sunday someone had to put up/take down the "Avenue L" advertisements (thanks for the help in this by Hart Bus Al, Larry Red Bird, Jeff Rosen).
Today I'm tired, but it was a lobor of LOVE.
If any of this interests/excites some of the rest of you ... this week-end might have been a missed opportunity, but it's not the last one that there will even be. We'll be having trolley classes in the Spring which can get you on your way toward joing our crew. So, consider joining the museum now to start reading about our adventures in the shops & on the line. There's lots and lots of work of all types of work that needs to be done & we have all the toys (tools) for you to play with (under supervision).
For example: Ever want to be a Gandy Dancer ? In November we'll have a large track game on the line while the trolleys stay warm & dry in their barns ... no experience necessary.
Sorry I left so suddenly Thurston. It wasn't me, it was the wife. She'd rather go to dinner than have me operate the R-9.
Wives will do that to you, but son's & grandson's can be bribed into staying for a couple of hours longer.
Next time she's with you I know this v-e-r-y italian resturant (music, murals on the wall, waiters with long white aprions, etc.) on the north side of New Haven. It's a great place in the european style, i.e. you can't be in a hurry. She's sure to say, "Jeff where did you find this place, you were right, it WAS worth the wait" < G >
Oh Mr. RT, when are we going to see "Dear Thurston" in a tabloid?
;| )Sparky
I agree. My wife called after we all ( 14 in total ) finished dinner at the local diner. She wasn’t feeling well and had to rush back home. With BMTman and Hartbus Al along for the ride home, we made it back to QS depot within an hour. Then 10 minutes to Brooklyn. Would have gotten home sooner if not for the accident on I-95.
Thurston, that a great idea. I’ll have to remember that one if the wife comes along on the next trip.
Maybe I stop by this weekend on the way back for NH, if time permits.
Paul
Where was this "local diner" you made it back to QS from in an hour?! I live a half a mile from QS, and for a straight shot down I-95, it took me over an hour and a half. This was with a ten-minute delay from the city line through Co-op City and no line at the bridge toll. From having driven to the Native American casinos in southeast Connecticut many times, I remember there being diners conveniently off 95 in Norwalk, Westport and Milford.
How you got from QS to Brooklyn- even Greenpoint- in ten minutes is another question entirely.
First, a bunch of us stayed overnight, e.g. Stef & I shared a room at Motel 6. So the local dinner is in Branford, after which Paul's SUV did indeed head South, with a drop off in College Point of those continuing to Suffolk & Kings counties.
I can't remember the diner’s name or street but it not far from BERA. Perhaps a ¼ of a mile away.
We left the diner at 10:00 pm and arrived at QS depot at about 11:00 pm. I haven’t had the change to download the data from my GPS unit, but I recall travelling between 70 and 75 mph. We did have a brief slow down due to an accident. Besides that, everything else was smooth sailing.
And from QS depot, the VWE is block away so it easy to get on. From there to the LIE on to the BQE and over the kamikaze into Greenpoint. Yeah, 10 minutes sounds about right. But also, traffic was light at that time which helped.
Paul
You're lucky you didn't get pulled over. I-95 can be a real speed trap from New Haven all the way to the NYS line. I ALWAYS see troopers on the shoulders and in pursuit whenever I travel it. The limit is 55, and reduced to 40 in numerous construction zones around Orange and Bridgeport. They enforce it.
If I didn't have good reflexes, you might've had to slow down for a serious accident right after the US7 merge in Norwalk thanks to some moron who cut right in front of me in the middle lane. I had to jam on my brakes; for some inexplicable reason, so did he. We must've come within inches of hitting. Luckily traffic was moving slowly due to the surface being milled over the Yankee Doodle Bridge and beyond. He immediately took off and cut off a few more people.
I was sweating and breathing heavily well into Darien.
What help also is having a CB radio so you can listen in on the truckers and find out where is smokey is hiding. Many times I hear a smokey alert on the CB on where he is hiding. Just when you get to the area where smokey is hiding, you slow down. And sure enough, there he is hiding in the bush.
Paul
You know how long it's been since I've seen a CB antenna? Ages!
I'm thankful for the construction tip on I-95 - all the more reason to take the Merritt Parkway back to the city on Sunday the 20th.
Just look at the roof of Sparky's car on 10/13...
..."You know how long it's been since I've seen a CB antenna? Ages!"...
You'll get to see one on your ride to Branford on SubTalk Sunday,
as your designated driver still monitors a CB.
;| ) Sparky
Paul, two Garden Spotters with CBs, someday we will have to do a
convoy from Greenpoint to Branford.
;| ) Sparky
Sounds like a plan for next time. Just give a shout for " Crusher " on channel 19.
Paul
Some of us have a "get out of jail free" card, my brother-in-law is on the job ... I carry his business card, but I keep it under 70, because I might run into someone who has a hard on for him.
I-95 can be a real speed trap from New Haven all the way to the NYS line.
Hadn't noticed... and Saturday I was driving my wife's Mustang (she's got my van in Arizona, visiting our grandchildren, and my truck is in the shop). I was moving at about mid-pack speed - just over 70 mph. Two troopers passed me at different times; both were more interested in the "Willy Weaver" types than in a little teal convertible running with the flow in the center lane.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Like Anon_e_mous says, you can haul on I-95, as long as you stay
in line and don't play Willie Weaver or rage at all that befronts
you. I hauled many years with old 8888 and now with my Park Ave.
on I-95. Also when coming from the alternate residence, turbos
engaged on I-84 from Newburgh~Beacon Bridge to Connecticut State
Line, downshift thru Danbury and resume after exit 8 to exit 11,
then it's CT 34 to New Haven and the inspiration of when, as I
pass "Yale Field" on Derby Avenue. Just thinking of the air
compresors of 80 ConnCo opens idling in wait. Those was the days.
I ranting again.
;| ) Sparky
I can't remember the diner’s name or street but it not far from BERA.
The Twin Pines Diner - ptomaine their specialty, served 24 hours a day. Actually, breakfast isn't bad (just avoid the potatoes) but I haven't had a dinner there yet that I particularly enjoyed from a food standpoint (company's pretty good though). All those in favor of the Italian joint up in the shopping center, vote with your stomach :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, I've introduced a number of folks to that little jem. Realy good food, but a very long wait when they are busy.
My favorite place after Branford is the Chinese Buffet right after you pass the Amtrak tracks before the entrance to I-95. (next to the OTB) I've been to many Chinese Buffets on Long Island and I think this place is one of the best.
I know that buffet very well. I often stop there and at the Hess station on northbound Frontage Road on my way home from the casinos, as it's a very easy off-on from 95. The Amtrak/SLE ROW runs right behind it, but as far as I know, a train's never passed by whenever I've been there. Maybe they go by so fast or slow, there would be no vibrations. As far as quality, the food's OK, but not as good as the buffets in Great Neck and Rockville Centre.
Now I'm HUNGRY!
Didn't know they had OTB in Connecticut.
PS: If you wanna blackmail me, show my wife this post. She gets mad if I go to a buffet or gambling- the latter without her.
Paul - Thanks for a great and smooth ride. The road was wide open. We must have come upon the accident just moments after it happened because the slowdown couldn't have been more than half a mile and perhaps 5-7 minutes.
When there is friendship and cammeraderie in the car time and delays pass quickly.
I pulled out of QSC at about 11:05 and was home in Suffolk at 11:50. Would have been sooner except for an accident on the CIP at 160. Someone put himself into the wall. Two FDNY trucks arrived via the 160 exit ramp. The tower ladder truck was angled so oddly that everyone had to merge into the shoulder and proceed slowly so as no to clip the passenger side rear corner of the rig...Once passed that it was a clear shot.
Note to Paul - Diner was named Twin Pines.
Notes to Howard Fein - The diner is at the end of Farm River Road. Paul took I-95 to the Whitestone Exp. to the WB to the W exp to Linden Place.
The QSC lot is getting so much press here, maybe we should add a attendant to make a few more bucks for the boss.
BTW, spot #9 will cost you double vs. the others, becaused it's reserved :-)
No problem. Enjoyed the company onboard.
Good to hear that you got home safely as well.
Paul
The name of the place is Carmine's Ristorante at 1500 Whalley Ave.
That's north of New Haven on Route 69, just one block away from Route 15 exit 59.
It would be on the way to NH if you were going thru Hartford.
End of shameless, off topic plug.
Indeed, but thanks anyway.
Paul
IIRC Exit 60 is Dixwell Ave. by Hamden HS and 61 is Whitney Ave.
What more Plaudits can be added then those we have bestowed upon
ourselves by other members at Branford, participating in operating
or just riding.
It was a superior weekend for me, having the opportunity to allow
the "boys" to play. Being mostly in operations,
I do not participate in much of the gritty chores, [physical restriction],
that need tending to. It's one thing to come and operate and show your skills,
but many thankless behind the scenes tasks have to be tended.
My way of saying thanks and leaving the operating positions available
to others, was playing switch tender East of yard area. So I did not
have the opportunity to chat with many of our visitors. Saturday,
was very busy with the placement of RT equipment and necessary
aligments for Short Beach thru cars or trains and return plus
relays of short turn streetcars and the steel subway train across
the main yard from Avenue 'L', so that the next RT move could be spotted.
Good coordination from our Surface and Rapid Transit Operators, allowed
the Dispatcher and I to keep all visitors moving on as varied equipment,
as track space would allow.
On the first trip of Brooklyn PCC, the car rolled to my working
position with the "Dispatcher" at the controls. He stops and calls
me aboard, and I head to find a seat, he says STOP, this is your
trip, and off we go to Short Beach. Slight bugaboo on the return
trip, as the pole dewired straight up. Had to await a special tool,
the pole turning device, which was brought out to us by Brooklyn
Car 4573. Where else but Branford, could a 1904 Convertible
go to the assistance of a 1936 PCC.
Later after public operations, 1001 made a special trip with member
"Athur Lonto" at the controls and Frank Pfuhler aboard.
Two members who were insturmental in obtaining 1001 for Branford in 1956. Or as noted in the vocalization on Brooklyn's Last Trolleys from Sunday River Productions, which Frank Pfuhler was the person behind the camera, which recorded the journey from Brooklyn to Connecticut on 25 October, 1956 and several days later the first operation ever of a PCC Car in the State of Connecticut by Arthur Lonto. Besides, Arthur's long association with BERA, many know Arthur
from the NYD or the ERA.
On Saturday, I also had the opportunity to pilot the sole person
requesting a "Streetcar" crack at the handles. Most wanted the
chance to turn the handles on RT. Another of our special offerings
in conjunction with "Autumn in New York". A similar offering will
be available on "SubTalk Sunday" at Branford, October 13, for those
in attendance.
Sunday, was a quieter day, with most die hards going to Hoboken.
Also, 6688 was sidelined, so the switch tending was not as
intense as Saturday. BQT PCC 1001 came out in the afternoon to replace
BRT 4573, given the afternoon off. It works hard during the warm
weather season on the line. Most of the operators, were given
time to pilot 1001 on Sunday, as it was in the regular mix from
Sprague as the thru car. TATS 629 did the shuttle trips for
connecting service at Avenue "L". With less switch tending, after
lunch break, I took the baton from the "Dispatcher" and let him
get some time on 1001, as he had done for me on Saturday.
Besides, the regular visitors and Railfans on Saturday, we had
a Birthday Party and again on Sunday.
On Sunday, there was some unique movements to relay the car assinged
to the party to Sprague to allow for decorating. We were relaying
a short turn streetcar and trying not to delay the return of the
steel subway train from Short Beach at the same time and a streetcar
was waiting to return to Sprague also.
All the cars finally in position, with the Birthday Car scheduled
for 1400, with 629 in front of it. The RT schedule was adjusted
to allow lunch breaks. Well 1400 came and 629 did the solo trip
to Short Beach, without the party car following. That puts 1001
in front of the party car. 1420, party car is ready to roll,
ten prior to car in front of it. Well, it's time to adjust the
schedule, we will push back the Wooden El Trip, till the main is
clear of the other cars. So now at 1425, we send BQT 1001 followed
by Montreal 2001 on there merry way to Short Beach. Thats 1001
leading 2001 East and 2001 first westbound with 1001 trailing.
Oh, only at Branford, these unique moments occur.
Later, in the day, when relieved of the batoon, I was assinged to
1001 and I trip Stef was my conductor/back up person. 1001 being
single ended, need eyes the rear on reverse moves. Vacated the
operators seat, as we had to vacate Spargue for a short trip, so
2001, could return at the conclusion of its party. Having an extra
operator aboard, put Stef in the seat for the short back & forth
moves. Yes, Stef operates units other than 6688.
Overall, it was a tiring fun filled weekend and thanks to the
Uniformned Operators to allow this customarily unifomed member to
wear "civies".
I've read the treads posted referencing "Autumn in New York", posted
by member/operators present and replies from non attendees. What I
request at this time is observations from SubTalkers attending, whom
are not active member/operators at Branford. Being an Instructor
at Branford, this weekend gave me the opportunity to cherish my
efforts in the "Training Division/Surface Cars".
Many SubTalkers were about, so let's here from ya. Didn't have the
occasion to say Howdy, but look for many to return on Sunday,
October 13th for "Fun with an Arnine" and all available Streetcars.
Excuse the "Excessive Verbiage".
;| ) Sparky
Well said.
-Stef
Operating the PCC was quite nice. Now if I could remember which foot goes where, I'd be alright:)
-Stef
Hey Stef,
You really don't want your PCC mentor to tell you what foot goes
where on a public message board, do ya???
;- )Sparky
Wise guy? I oughta.... LOL!
-Stef
FYI... I have two left feet which is why I have difficulty manipulating the PCC....
-Stef
Stef,
We have to getcha lessons in a rubber tired vehicle with a clutch...
Just a rare breed as a PCC today.
;| ) Sparky
We have to getcha lessons in a rubber tired vehicle with a clutch...
Just a rare breed as a PCC today.
Well, if he comes up on the 13th I might just let him take the Ranchero for a spin around the parking lot :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That won't happen ... The T/A will be working. He's got Tues./Wed.
off this pick.
;| ) Sparky
That won't happen ... The T/A will be working. He's got Tues./Wed.
off this pick.
;| ) Sparky
Thank you Stef.
;| ) Sparky
I know Sparky realy wants to here from some of our guests from these past two days, but I can't let his comments go by without saying a public vote of thanks to him for his WORK at Yard Limit. He made our respective lives so much easier this week-end because the switches & signals were always RIGHT. The staff this week-end all like & respect each other which makes it that much for enjoyable to do the work.
I'll long remeber the twelve knights around the supper table Saturday night !
I would also like to say “ THANKS “ to everyone as well. This past weekend would not have been possible if not for the crew ( Thurston, Lou from Brooklyn, Jeff H. Sparky, & Stef ). I know there are more but their names elude me at this time. The weather was great along with meeting up with other fellow SubTalkers.
Thanks again,
Paul.
BTW - I thought we have 14 knights of the rectangle table.
I wasn't counting Dennis < G >
LOL :-)
I guess I don't count...:(
Nah, we never saw ya. You were always trying to get the operating seat on 1227. WHat a mess I had to clean off that window...
You like? That was one of the largest get togethers for dinner I have ever seen... So many different personalities.
Sunday, it was Thurston, Lou, Sparky, and DaWheelFlange, in addition to myself for Wendy's.
-Stef
Dannie aka DaWheelFlange goes to the same college as my daughter.
He goes under the name oz12 now....
-Stef
..."He made our respective lives so much easier this week-end because the switches & signals were always RIGHT."...
I'm only responsible for switch aligments being correct. Let place
the Plaudits to the overseer of the weekend, the Dispatcher, Dana B.
The model board was in service and even with proper switch alignments,
if he didn't lift the "Red Ball", you didn't go. With the smaller crews on Sunday,
and tending to 'spatching and operating 1001, the crews aligned their own switches.
No one took a wrong turn because that's where the alignment was from previous
move or blew a trailing point. Good safe days, with much movement in Yard Area.
;| ) Sparky
Sparky: The boys(and girls) at Branford did a great job this past weekend. Many of the sub talkers, including yourself work at Branford and do a tremendous job. The R-17 is really looking sharp and shows the result of much hard work by Thurston, Doug, Stef and many others.
For those who were not there on Saturday we had an el train and a subway train running. IRT 41 and BRT 1227 made up the el train and IRT 5466 and IND 1689 made up the subway train. The R-17 ran as a solo. The PCC Patriarch 1001 made several trips as did TARS 629 and B&QT 4573. Union Railway 301 made a trip too. As all the New York cars were busy Montreal 2001 pitch-hit for a birthday party.
Thanks to all the crew for a great weekend.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Where else but Branford, could a 1904 Convertible go to the assistance of a 1936 PCC.
We can equal that (or perhaps top it): a 1902 double truck open going to the assistance of a 1944 PCC.
Dan Lawrence,
I think we could top you.
They could have sent a 1895 single trucker instead of a 1904 double
truck convertible.
BTW, this one you can not do in Baltimore. Same scenario, 1689
dewires, pole straight up. 629, piloted by yours truly with
the master mechanic aboard to the rescue.
WHY? That's a 1939 Third Avenue Streetcar sent to assist a 1940
IND Subway Car. >G<
;| ) Sparky
True.
Need I remind you that 1164 is a hand braker. Not your father's air brake car. Drag jobs with a hand brake open with WH306CV motors is not for the weak hearted.
I'll concede.
Haven't experienced a double truck armstrong as yet. More so as a
tow motor.
;| ) Sparky
I would like to pass on a big Thanks to the whole operating crew. As a non-active member who was active in the past I know how hard these things can be to pull off successfully. It was great to put faces to the names I have been speaking to on here lately. Sparky you get my vote for the hardest working of the bunch, everytime I noticed you were at the L platform lead switch, moving cars..etc. Thanks. Not to blow my own whistle but I stayed around to help put the cars away at the end of the night. Doug I will dig out the pictures of 1227's roof job and get them scanned for you ASAP.
Steve Loitsch
And don't forget we had a few railfan 'celebrities' in our midst for Saturday. Included in this esteemed group were Arthur Lonto (responsible for many cars being up at Branford), Tony "D-Types" Errente (T/O on the D-Type trips for the Transit Museum), and Bob Giannuzzi (retired LIRR Engineer who worked often with BERA's JJ Earl).
It was also a pleasure to see Keith "Far Rockaway A Train" again as he rarely posts anymore at SubTalk. Also, there were some familiar faces that I recognized from Trevor's 'entourage'.
Funny how I ran into most of everyone from Saturday at "Autumn in New York" at the Hoboken festival. As a matter of fact, I was only there 10 minutes when I ran into Larry "RedbirdR33" Gault. The surprise was running into Dave Pirrman and Pelham Bay Dave (he had to head out for work at 5pm).
I enjoyed myself Sunday. It was nice to meet some of the subtalker in person. I also had a surprise meet a group of T/O's and C/R's from the No.6 Line. It was one of those days I wish I didn't have to work. They wanted me to have dinner with them in Chinatown but I told them I had to work. I also wish I could have spent more time on the new light rail line. I did get to talk to one of the Train Operators and he said he had to adjust to the braking because it stops like bus. Then I made the 3:50 train out of Hoboken and got off at 14 Street and took the #2 Express to 96 Street and then the #1 to 116 where my car was parked. I made it to my reporting location at 5:10PM. Only 1HR and 20 Mins to get from Hoboken to E'Chester. Then again thats a mix of Mass Transit on a Sunday and driving. The C/R on the NB #2 was nice she was closing down and seen me coming down the stairs and reopened.
As far as work it was fun The Dyre Shuttle had 100% R142 Bombardiers and the 149 GC #5 section had R33 Redbirds and R62's from the No.4 Line.
It was a lot of fun, even with the breakdown of 4573 and rescue by 1227. (Do I have the numbers right?) Saw a lot of the familiar crew, and finally got to meet the Sarge, Stef, Anon_e_mouse and many others. Lou, Sparky and Thurston looked very impressive in their respective uniforms. My personal highlight was riding the R9 twice with its familiar musty smell and lovely compressor and air brake sounds of my youth. They were retired in my senior year of HS.
This was my third visit to Branford, and now I fully realize that it's not an amusement park by any means- as many who've never been there dismiss it as. It's a real working railroad, where you really have to exhibit professionalism and show proper respect for the equipment and ROW. It helps that the ROW goes through an area that still closely resembles how it must've looked in the trolley area. The swampy terrain and high water table has obviously kept suburban sprawl to a minimum.
I would've liked to have ridden more, but had to leave at 4:00 due to the need for a bathroom and having promised to be home for dinner. On the trip home, I noticed that there are NO FENCES separating US 1 from the Amtrak/SLE ROW between CT100 and the I-95 overpass. Also, it looks like the Stamford complex is at or near completion- at least from what I could tell passing by at 60.
Unfortunately, I discovered we're invited to a bat mitzah reception on the Island on Sunday the 13th (They're observant to the point where they can't have the party right after the Sabbath service.), so I CAN'T MAKE Subtalk Day! GRRRR! At least I'm still available for the Columbus Day fantrip, as far as I know.
There was no breakdown of any car.
1001 (PCC) dewired and the rope got stuck on the top of the car. 4573 brought someone out who could climb on the car and get the rope (1001 operator couldn't physicaly do that task though that would have been required of operators in the trolley era).
..."(1001 operator couldn't physicaly do that task though that would have been required of operators in the trolley era)"...
and the operator would have been 20 ~ 30 years younger and 50 plus pounds lighter.
BTW, if you were operating, would you have performed the task?
Member & SubTalker Mark W offered to do the burden, as he was a
passenger. Now if we were his age!!! >G<
;|) Sparky
Yes, but Steve wanted to do it. If you can strain slow working feeble brain for a minute, who was on the rescue car??
Geezee, I don't go on top of subway cars, the wire is way to close to my 6'8"...
I know your 6' 8" was on the rescue car, but the offer by Mark W,
was before you arrived with Steve K. The riders abandoned me, like
a sinking ship, when you arrived. It was warm sitting in 1001, so
they opted for natural AIR CONDITIONING, 1904 style.
;| ) Sparky
PS-My jinx was on the car, things happen to me when super cop is
about, Branford & Seashore. He's my black cat.
Remember the other time when I had to get up there, the rope had
broken at the harp, and I put the pole back on the wire
barehanded? Fearless SuperCop was a little freaked out by that.
That was on 4573, but she has two poles (not refering to when Sparky is on board).
Well if Super Cop was present that day on 4573 and Sparky was not,
you had three poles on 4573. When Steve and I are on 4573 you have
four poles.
;| ) Sparky
Good one, LOL !
Oops, you're right. My error in misidentifying the equipment and nature of disruption. I should've become accustomed to stops resulting from the Branford fleet dewiring. I just refer generically to any service disruption as a 'breakdown'.
Howard, Good to see you again, and happy that you enjoyed yourself.
It's a labor of love for us !
We'll be waiting for you at Penn Station on Monday, then.
You know you guys are all making me VERY jealous!!!
For the first time STM's Members Weekend did not coincide with Autumn in New York, and I couldn't make either one! Sounds like it was alot of fun...
and to top it off, I will be in Maine for Columbus Day Weekend, but flying back Sunday night so I can't come to Subtalk Day either! (grrrrr....)
My next NY trip is scheduled right now for Christmas Week....hoping there can be a fan trip then! :) (Doug, Thurston, Lou, et al. hint...hint....)
The Museum is doing Santa Days 12/21 12/22, don't think you could get an RT car unless you chartered it...
12/22 is the last public operation day for the year as well until Sunday's in April.
Lou,
I was talking about a "real" fantrip in the city somewhere
-Jeremy
For example, to SBK & Cross Harbor ... have that shot of you & I on one of their sidelined NWs
..."For the first time STM's Members Weekend did not coincide with Autumn in New York, and I couldn't make either one"...
But, we did a have a representation from STM ... Jay Mc and
contingent enroute home from an ARMY game at West Point, stopped
by for a short while on Sunday afternoon.
BTW, three operators from the weekend are members of BERA & STM,
Thurston, JJ Earl & I. And Mr. RT, is even qualified at Warehouse
Point, also. And JJ and I pay our dues in operating hours in the
North Country, or should I say, we unwind in the South of Maine.
;| ) Sparky
pictures of airtrain deralment and
UMMM...... Where's the pic's???
The links are in there if you view the source - the HTML was bad, though. Here are the links:
Photo: here
Photo: here
The building's at Rector and Greewich Sts., accroding to the story on the NY1 website, cracks that have developed in it forced officials to close the 1/9 line south of Chambers and consider the demolition of the building.
This may or may not be a Sept. 11 legacy, and the resumption of 1/9 service beneath the building may have caused the hidden structural problems to come out.
Here is the story from CNN:
NEW YORK (AP) -- Streets were blocked off around a two-story building near the World Trade Center site Saturday after cracks were found in an exterior wall and the windows began bulging outward.
Officials were making plans to demolish the building, which sits on the corner of Greenwich and Rector streets, directly above a subway station that was closed for more than a year after the September 11 terrorist attacks. The building is four blocks south of the World Trade Center site.
It wasn't immediately clear what caused the structural problems.
Frank McCarton, deputy commissioner for the city's Office of Emergency Management, said the building posed an immediate danger.
"It is a life safety issue," he said.
Several cracks in the building's exterior wall had expanded Saturday morning, and a metal security gate and second-floor windows were bulging, according to Deputy Fire Chief Richard Fuerch. Occupants of the building, which houses a cafe and a salon, were evacuated.
The structural problems were noted Friday night when someone in the cafe had trouble with the rolldown security gate, Fuerch said.
Subway service was suspended at both the Rector Street and South Ferry stations, which reopened less than two weeks ago.
-Nick
It sounds like that building was simply a tired old building that should have been taken down years ago.
#3 West End Jeff
There are a lot of tired old buildings near ground zero, and who knows what the vibrations of the collapsing towers may have done to them.
There is evidence that construction work on the Rector St. station didn't help matters any for that old building.
#3 West End Jeff
hat makes much more sense than the seismic tremor of the WTC buildings collapsing.
What exactly do you mean by 'Sept. 11th Legacy'?
There was speculation that the building was damaged in the 9/11/01 attack but that the damage did not manifest itself until train service beneath the building (which is right above the #1/#9) resumed about two weeks ago. As far as I am aware, an exact determination has not been made at this point.
David
"As far as I am aware, an exact determination has not been made at this point."
And probably too late now. The building was demolished this morning.
What exactly do you mean by 'Sept. 11th Legacy'?
A reference to the possibility that the building had been weakened by the collapse of the towers and the resulting earth tremors. I would highly doubt if that actually happened, given the building's distance from the WTC. In addition, while the tremors were measurable by seismographs (which is how the exact times of the collapses are known), they weren't close to being strong enough to have caused structural damage to other buildigns.
I see. Thanks for the explanation and to other one as well.
"This may or may not be a Sept. 11 legacy"
It's a third of a mile from the south tower. No way a massive cloud of concrete dust (all that made it as far south as Rector) causes structural cracks in a building. If the subway hadn't been closed down for a year the cracks probably would have shown earlier.
Actually, the SEISMIC event of the collapse could well have shaken things. The collapse of the two towers did sway the needles at several seismic recording sites around the northeast ... in that close, it could have cracked some mortar ...
(Actually, the SEISMIC event of the collapse could well have shaken things.)
That's right, the collapse caused a mild earthquake. I was of the opinon that the city should have come in and knocked down all the old bearing wall buildings within a couple of blocks, just on general principles. More safety, more development sites.
In light of the recent developments this could very well be a realistic thread title...LOL! ;)
Well as expected there was no Q trains in either direction this weekend over the bridge.Some Q's did run express but then switched over to the local track after Prince St.When I first got to the lower level of Canal St. there wasnt as many people as I thought there would be. But as time went on, and I was there for 2 1/2 hours,more people kept roaming the platforms on both sides.
Then maybe 5 or 10mins after I arrived,something happened at the N/R platform and there was no train service in either direction for over an hour.During that time I kept telling people to do this and that to get to where they were going.Then maybe around 3:30,Brooklyn bound service resumed normal but there was still no Queens bound service.
That resumed a half hour later.
Then between 4:30 and 5:00 I was on the Brooklyn bound platform where the Q/W stop still directing people to where they supposed to go and some jackass undercover cop flashes his badge at me from the opposite platform asking me who am I and if I worked for transit.All I said was that I was helping people as best as I can.Then I clearly heard him telling me to go home and I muttered "go "F" yourself." I should've just outright flipped the damn cop the middle finger and said that loudly so he could hear it.Then I would've dared him to come arrest me,I would've beat him up for not minding his own business.All I was doing was helping people that had no clue what was going on at all,and there's absoultely nothing wrong with that.
At 5:00 I took the J to Jamaica Center so I could go to the bathroom then hopped on the E went all the way to Broadway-Lafayette where I started telling people that there was no F train there and to go back to West 4St. to get the F going to Brooklyn. I did the same thing at 2nd Ave.What really got me ticked off was that the 2nd Ave. platform going to Brooklyn on the F train track, was NOT taped off nor were there any signs that it was before.What's wrong with these TA people!?
If the platform's aren't taped off when there's no service at that station then people are gonna think that the train is running normal and then wonder why it hasn't shown up in "X" number of time.Seeing how it was today,there's no mistake that it'll be the same way tomorrow but I am just gonna relax at home and too bad for those who have no idea of whats going on.Doing this 1 day is good enough for me.
Dude Take the Test and stope doing it for free
Getting a job you really want is like getting sex. You sohlud be casual and confidient. Being so overeager does not help at all.
I can imagine him doing this on his RDO even if he is not on the clock.
I already took the test almost a year ago and I'm still waiting for them to call me.
I was at the Canal Street Station early this morning waiting for Queensbound W and I had 10 people came to me and asking me how to get to their destination. Well Lucky me, that I have answered all ten people destination without a cop came to me and flash badges. I guess the NYC Police is keeping their very eye on the public and making sure we're safe.
Maybe you did not stay half an hour doing it too.
Actually I was on my to 34 to meet mah friends at a certain time so I didn't stay to long.
I had to go to work today, and got to experience the shuttle bus scheme being used on the White Plains Road Line. I must commend all of the people at Transit who made a sticky situation work smoothly. Announcements were made clearly. Signs directed passengers to the proper exit and personnel were ready to direct passengers to the correct busses. As I only needed the local shuttle, I didn't get a ticket and didn't see the situation from the E 180 St. side, so I can't comment about that. But even though it made my commute much longer, Seeing that time was taken to plan this all out made me feel better.
so let's see what they find eh?
Where did you get the news that the NTSB would investigate NYT, and why are they doing the investigation?
Tom
No one like the NY Times. I think he means the PA.
>>> No one like the NY Times. I think he means the PA. <<<
Even if he means the PA, what is the source of this news and why. The Airtrain accident was on a system controlled by Bombardier which has not yet been turned over to the PA. And about three hours ago, Newsday was reporting that the NTSB would not be investigating the Airtrain accident.
Tom
humble apology for lack of clarity. The NY Times in Sunday's edition on the web does report that NTSB WILL investigate, quoting a spokesperson that the death was the deciding factor. I would suspect that the LAY will have the story tmrw. Again apology for lack of clarity
Here's the link to the N.Y. Times story on the NTSB entering the AirTrain investigation.
As always with the Times, the link requires registration.
The Airtrain accident was on a system controlled by Bombardier which has not yet been turned over to the PA.
I don't think that's a factor. Bombardier (AirRail, really, but Bombardier is the key player of the consortium) has a DBOM contract, the only thing that will ever change hands is money.
Mark
>>> I don't think that's a factor. Bombardier (AirRail, really, but Bombardier is the key player of the consortium) has a DBOM contract, the only thing that will ever change hands is money. <<<
My point was that this is not yet an operating system. This is similar to Boeing having an new aircraft crash during a test flight. It is more of an industrial accident than a transportation accident. In any case that is a moot point since the NTSB has decided to investigate after all.
Tom
(My point was that this is not yet an operating system. This is similar to Boeing having an new aircraft crash during a test flight. It is more of an industrial accident than a transportation accident. In any case that is a moot point since the NTSB has decided to
investigate after all.)
Even if there isn't a legal reason to investigate, the more expertise the better. Why wait to apply the expertise after an accident in revenue service, when there is now an opportunity to correct the problem in testing. If the NTSB can help, let them help.
I totally agree.
My attitude about testing is this: If there is any potential for screw-ups, defects, mistakes, let them come out now (I do very much mourn the loss of life of the Bombardier employee, but we must learn even from this (especially from this!). Beat up on the train, operate it in modes that test safety systems and safety margins, and see how it behaves.
Then, when the train enters service (that truly is a "when," not an "if") the passengers will not have to experience its "teething pains."
As an oops the AirTrain site talks about the award they got for concrete design. Not the pieces that killed the operator but the ones that rained from the sky.
>>> Even if there isn't a legal reason to investigate, the more expertise the better <<<
True, but taxpayers pay for the NTSB. Their investigation costs money. A government agency should not be spending money it is not authorized to spend. If the accident was caused by something peculiar to the testing procedure, such as shifting cement blocks causing stress beyond design limits, they are wasting public money. It would be more appropriate for the NTSB to monitor the PA and Bombadier investigations rather than conducting a third parallel investigation.
Tom
If the accident was caused by something peculiar to the testing procedure, such as shifting cement blocks causing stress beyond design limits..
So someone from NTSB needs to make that calculation and show that concrete blocks will shift under those conditions. The calculation is far from trivial. Also someone from NTSB needs to look at the inside of the traincar to determine whether the blocks struck the side of the car before or after the derailment. The chances are the Bombardier people have never seen a wreck caused by shifting loads in their life, while the NTSB investigator may have seen two or three. Thus only an NTSB trained eye will be able to tell the difference between a dent caused by a shifting load versus one caused by general load movements after derailment.
AEM7
OK, folks. This one is for those of a technical mind in terms of reading signal prints, etc. For the last year I've been trying to figure out track placement in the 63rd Street tunnel.
First off, am I correct in my understanding that the subway uses the two upper chambers in the tube (future LIRR routing to use the lower)?
The part that really drives me batty is the section from immediately after 63rd and Lex to a point about 2,100' east (corresponding from stationing point 1137 to 1158). For the sake of this discussion, I'm going to use compass directions rather than system directions. I'm saying the tube runs east-west between Manhattan and Queens. At 63/Lex both 6th Avenue (T-series) tracks are on the south side of the platform, and the presently-unused Broadway (G-series) tracks are on the north.
Here's the connundrum.
The platforms and tracks at 63/Lex are exactly one atop the other. In looking at the single-line drawings, however, there seems to be a rip in the space-time continuum. To wit, it shows the Manhattan-bound trains veering right to enter their platform and the Queens-bound veering left (granted, at different elevations). In other words, an overhead view of the tracks would have it looking for all the world like the approach to an island platform station. Problem is, in looking at these drawings, nowhere does it depict how or where the Manhattan-bound track crosses over the Queens-bound track, or vice versa.
I've scanned in and distilled down the three relevant images, then tried to combine them and that's where the problems arise.
If anyone is looking at my book to understand what I'm talking about, look on page 21 first (version 3.2). T1 and T2 are perfectly parallel and operate in a "right-hand-running" configuration. Now, as one proceeds into 63rd St., T1 (Manhattan-bound) rises and T2 (Queens-bound) descends to a total separation of about 450 feet or so (pretty steep grades). With T1 physically higher than T2, heading into Manhattan, at no point does T1 S-curve slightly to the left in order to be on top of T2. In fact, T1 S-curves the the *right* just as it enters 63/Lex.
Looking at it from the other direction, coming from 6th Ave, T2 descends below T1 as they both turn onto 63rd Street. Beside T2 track is G4 track, which dead-ends just past 63/lex. Ditto, beside T1 is G3. Leaving 63/Lex Queensbound on T2 (again, lower-level exactly below T1), T1 S-curves very slightly LEFT after exiting 63/Lex heading to Queens. Continuing along, it rises to be beside (and to the right of) Manhattan-bound T1. Again, at no place does T2 cross T1. I just don't get it. The only way that this could even remotely make sense is if the upper level and lower level platforms were offset and the right-of-way was in fact threetrackways and one wide platforms wide--highly doubtful for such a narrow street, and against everything I've seen about this project. The only potential clue is the actual stationing marks that I've left in place (i.e 1135+00) and the corresponding dot. They don't seem to line up in any understandable way here--and maybe that is what I'm not understanding. In any event...HELP, please???
Here are 5 images that depict what I'm trying to convey.
This first one is the upper level by itself:
Next is the lower level itself:
Third is the area east of 63/Lex:
Four is what happens on T1 when I try and merge drawings 1 and 3:
Five is what happens on T2 when I try and merge drawings 2 and 3:
Sorry for carrying on such, but I really hope one of you kind souls can help unbefuddle my brain cells.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
Obviously, drawing 3 is wrong or you are missing the drawing that covers the point where the tracks to/from Queens transition from side-by-side (as they are under the river) to over-and-under (as they are at Lex and, IIRC, at the bellmouths for the 2nd Ave link up).
You mention that these are signal line drawings rather than tunnel construction drawings or track maps. Could it be that the signals dept is less concerned with accurately rendering every vertical or horizontal curve in the tunnel than with simply setting out in linear sequence the location of the signals? It appears that whoever did drawing 3 simply used a standard template of a more conventional station approach, labeled the tracks, drew in the details he needed to, and completely ignored the geometric issues you raise. I'm guessing that you need to keep in mind the purpose for which these drawing were created.
Obviously, drawing 3 is wrong or you are missing the drawing that covers the point where the tracks to/from Queens transition from side-by-side (as they are under the river) to over-and-under (as they are at Lex and, IIRC, at the bellmouths for the 2nd Ave link up).
You mention that these are signal line drawings rather than tunnel construction drawings or track maps. Could it be that the signals dept is less concerned with accurately rendering every vertical or horizontal curve in the tunnel than with simply setting out in linear sequence the location of the signals?
I'm beginning to think this is the case, although every other print I have is dead-balls accurate in terms of curves, etc.
I've only been on two R-32 runs through there in the past year, and the curves at the end of Lex/63 are definitely accurate (curve to the right going into Manhattan, Curve to the right leaving), but it's obviously not possible to tell what happens east of the station.
Maybe it's part of the rip in the space-time-continuum that leads to 76th Street < grin >.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
Lets leave 76 Street for the next time we go to the A line?
You write "single line drawings". Do you mean "signal line drawings"?
I would trust visual perception of the actual tracks more than signal line drawings that didn't have to be spatially correct. The online version of your track maps (on this site) makes perfect sense. It has the Manhattan bound track veering left as it approaches 63rd, and the Queens bound veering right as it leaves 63rd. If that corresponds to the visual image you see when you ride a train (I've ridden that line recently but didn't pay such close attention), then your track map is probably right and the signal map is wrong.
Also, the platforms have to be on top of each other. The same elevator stops on both platforms, a roughly equal distance north of both tracks. There are stairs down from one platform to the other without strange kinks in th stairway.
You write "single line drawings". Do you mean "signal line drawings"?
Actually, no.
They are called single-line drawings because the tracks are represented by a single line. Double-line drawings show both rails (I don't have access to those, unfortunately). By chance, they are also the signal drawings. I chose to eliminate the signals from the version I put up in the original post so as not to confuse the issue.
The online version of your track maps (on this site) makes perfect sense
Yes, that's why I drew them this way--but that was before I got these prints. It was from observation, and I hate to say it, a bit of guesswork on my part. I had nothing at that time to base my guess on other than how other over/under situations were handled throughout the system.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Oct. 1st!
As far as I know, the LIRR routing has no connection with the subway.
The LIRR route as I understand it is to run west from the Sunnyside Yard in the 63rd street tunnel. UNDER the subway tracks. It would make a left hand turn and go south on Park Ave to connect with the Metro North ROW into Grand Central.
The blow-outs or Tunnel headings in the subway tunnel before Lexington Ave are for trains to go south on the 2nd Ave subway. Likewise the 2 unused roadbeds in the Lexington Ave station. Northside of the station and on both levels are to connect to the 2nd Ave subway going north.
To put it another way,
You are standing on the Queens Bound platform at Lexington Ave/63 St. The track on the right goes to Queens. The track on the left. Which is now a lay-up track. Hidden from view. This track would make a left hand turn after leaving Lexington Ave and join the 2nd Ave Subway line going north to 125 St.
Likewise,
Trains coming thru the 63 St Tunnel would either make a station stop at Lexington Ave/63 St or before reaching the station it would make a left hand turn to join the 2nd Ave Subway going south toward Water St.
And before the 2 routes get to Lexington Ave/63 St. (The BMT route from 57/7 and the IND route from 57/6) there is a diamond crossover so that the BMT trains can go to either Harlem or to Queens. Likewise the same with the IND.
"The LIRR route as I understand it is to run west from the Sunnyside Yard in the 63rd street tunnel. UNDER the subway tracks. It would make a left hand turn and go south on Park Ave to connect with the Metro North ROW into Grand Central."
This leads to another question. What happens to the LIRR tunnel that currently exists under the east river, as you follow it westward? Does it just end in solid rock somewhere east of 2nd Ave? Or does it connect in some way to an extension of the unused subway tunnels behind the wall at 63rd St.?
The LIRR route would be under the subway tunnels until it gets to Park Ave then make a left and head for Grand Central. I don't know how much of that tunnel is built.
The tunnel exists only so far as it is directly underneath the subway tunnels. Where it turns off it goes into a blank wall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Correct. A contract to install a TBM there and begin drilling is currently being let.
"The tunnel exists only so far as it is directly underneath the subway tunnels. Where it turns off it goes into a blank wall."
This is exactly what I don't get. Isn't the LIRR tunnel supposed to turn off from 63rd onto Park? Does the LIRR tunnel really exist underneath the subway tunnels as far west as nearly Park, i.e., underneath the Lex and 53rd station?
Or does it end in a blank wall somewhere east of 2nd Ave.?
Typo:
I meant Lex and 63rd, of course.
This is exactly what I don't get. Isn't the LIRR tunnel supposed to turn off from 63rd onto Park? Does the LIRR tunnel really exist underneath the subway tunnels as far west as nearly Park, i.e., underneath the Lex and 53rd station?
Or does it end in a blank wall somewhere east of 2nd Ave.?
I don't believe the LIRR tunnel gets even as far west as Second Avenue.
The LIRR tunnel does indeed end at 2nd Avenue. See
www.mta.info/planning/esas/3description.htm
I don't think the LIRR tunnels got as far as the area of 21 Street.
You're thinking of the Queens side. Everyone else is talking about the Manhattan side.
In Manhattan probably the ramps and blow-out leaving Grand Central are there. Not much more than that.
In Manhattan the lower level end at 2nd avenue.It was suppose to curve onto 3rd,travel south to the 48th st Terminal[it was a transfer point to the 48th street subway,and 2nd ave line],something like a new Grand Central Station. In Queens,the line runs right up to the building line at Northern Blvd[the Sunnyside Yard]with 4 trackways.2 for LIRR trains,and 2 for subway trains.....
Now I'm not so sure. Was the LIRR tunnel supposed to go to 48 St/3 Ave or to Grand Central?
"Now I'm not so sure. Was the LIRR tunnel supposed to go to 48 St/3 Ave or to Grand Central?"
Original proposal back in the 60s or 70s was 48th and 3rd. Current proposal is GCT.
See the 1968''MTA=A Plan for Action'',at the Joe Korner's site,as well as the MTA's site.
The blank wall is indeed east of Second Avenue, as the original plan was for the alignment to shift out from under the subway tunnel at that point, and I believe also to change elevation relative to the subway tunnel. Back in '96 or '97 I attended a Transit Museum tour where we entered the tunnel at the Queens end (we didn't go very far) and also were given copies of diagrams showing exactly how far the tunnel went and what the original plan had been for the LIRR tunnel (which was still the plan of record at that time, IIRC). Not sure where my copy is right now or I'd dig it out and scan it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Someone said in a past thread they saw a tunnel heading in Sunnyside yard where they think the LIRR tunnel via 63 St. would begin. The LIRR tunnel would be below the subway tunnel. When the tunnel get to 63 St and Park Ave, The lower level LIRR tunnel is supposed to turn south and hook up with Metro North approaching Grand Central. At the present time I do not believe there is any tunnel built from the heading in Sunnyside Yard to the heading north of Grand Central where trains to Queens begin. I also do not believe there is a train connection from the LIRR to the subway. On the QueensBound track as the train starts to turn after 21 Street to go under and into the IND line at 36 Street, There is a tunnel heading that seems to be heading for the Sunnyside Yard. Maybe it's supposed to be a connection to the LIRR. I think it was supposed to be the beginning of the "Super Express" line going to the Archer Ave line.
I just wish they'd get the damn thing built already! :-0
Maybe in time for the 2012 Games. I can dream, Can't I?
Any thoughts?
59 st
(Any thoughts?)
I'll bet on 72nd Street, because it will be the first to open, and the project may be shut down for financial reasons at any time.
Also, 72nd St would be directly in the middle of 2 Lexington Ave. stops. I'll be used heavily.
72nd. High residential density on far east 72nd. No Lex station at 72nd (in contrast to 86th, which has a Lex express station).
Probably the first stop north and south of 63 St. They will be transfer points for trains to Queens or downtown via 6 Ave or B'way. I don't know off hand the names of the 2 stops.
The original plan had them called 54-57 Streets-East Midtown and 72-75 Streets-Lenox Hill.
By original plan I mean the 1970s plan.
Hi all,
The 9/15 NYC subway map is now online on this site, as usual - let me know if there's any error(s) on 9/15 map. Enjoy!
Michael Calcagno
Great work as always, Michael... Thanks!!
Bowery is id'ed as a local station. The J/Z used to bypass it while the M was running, but currently all 3 services stop there.....Alabama Ave. is interesting. I never noticed past maps, but the new maps in the subway cars list Alabama Ave. as a J station in the skip stop scheme. Actually, this station is served by both trains. This was done by memorandum a few years ago by the J/M/Z superintenant (now retired) due to a request made by the Department of Buses. I wonder if the powers at Jay St. know about this! I think not since the map does not reflect it.
"Bowery is id'ed as a local station. The J/Z used to bypass it while the M was running, but currently all 3 services stop there"
1. Not according to the currently posted MTA J schedule.
2. A few months ago, I was at Bowery and a Z passed me by.
Bowery is indeed a local stop served by all lines. Never mind what the schedule says.
1)The turnouts just south of Whitehall street lead to Staten Island
Fact or Fiction
2)Half of that tube already exsists
Fact or Fiction
3)CityHall Lower level was supposed to be a thru station and the upper level was supposed to be the terminal.
Fact or Fiction
4)Just south of Nevins Street the turnouts lead to BMT Pacific St
Fact or Fiction
5)86 st 4 th ave on the R has no wall tiles because of budget cuts
Fact or Fiction
I think they're all fiction.
not 3
1. Fiction -- Brooklyn (on a different heading), not Staten Island.
2. Fiction -- what can be seen is what is there.
3. Fact.
4. Fact -- to the Fourth Avenue Line, at any rate.
5. Fiction.
David
4. Fact -- to the Fourth Avenue Line, at any rate.
REALLY? Tell us more.
4. Fact -- to the Fourth Avenue Line, at any rate.
REALLY? Tell us more.
Well, not exactly. This was a provision for the first subway to go down the Fourth Avenue Line which the IRT hoped to operate under the so-called Triborough System. But the Dual Contracts and the BRT got in the way and the rest is history.
If the implication is taken that there is or was an actual connection, this is not so.
Correct. There was an idea of connecting the two, but it never happened. It's not quite "fiction," though, because provision WAS made to do it.
David
If 3 is a fact, which I think it is, what would the service pattern have been like?
The original plan for the Broadway line did not include a connection to the Manhattan Bridge. The Manhattan Bridge tracks were intended to continue west along Canal St. from the "Broadway" (now Canal St.) station.
Just goes to show that in those days they didn't wait until the plans were totally nailed down before starting construction.
-- Ed Sachs
1) Fiction. Tunnel would have been too long. BMT had planned on a tunnel to Staten Island from 59St/4 Ave. IND had planned their own tunnel to Staten Island from Ft Hamilton Pkwy area. Unknown if would have been from the Local or Express track.
2) Fiction. At best there are only the headings
3) Fact. The turn from the BMT onto the Manhattan Bridge was something the builders never thought of.
4) Fact. IRT had thoughts about building lines from their original route in Brooklyn. North of Nevins to the Manhattan Bridge. Continue along Fulton St and maybe on Lafayette Ave. I always wondered why trains leaving DeKalb always made that turn? Continue along Fulton St and maybe onto Lafayette Ave. The turnoff to 4th Ave was to have been just before the IRT enters Atlantic Ave. I hear there is just a slight trace.
5) Fiction. After 80 years since that section of the 4th Ave line first opened, I find that hard to believe. 86 St was to have been an express stop. Possibly a transfer point for trains going to/from Staten Island.
1) Fiction. Tunnel would have been too long. BMT had planned on a tunnel to Staten Island from 59St/4 Ave. IND had planned their own tunnel to Staten Island from Ft Hamilton Pkwy area. Unknown if would have been from the Local or Express track.
Known. Almost certainly local track. Pockets are there. No physical space from express track. Probable track arrangment.
could salaamallah ask the T/o to set up his camera on a tripod in the cab, while salaamallah waits outside of the cab?
Maybe, if the issue is the person in the cab.
But I think you would still need permission to do the videotaping and that's not the T/O's call.
yes ! thats how i do it on all of the los angeles transit cars...
i put the cam inside the cab tape it in or secure it
then start the recording jump out of the cab while it records..
at the end of the line go back take the camera out then shut it off
back up the tape to the cue and star over again going the next way.
i started 2 do this going back to atlantic av & i should have but i
made the mistake of thinking since it was late and being on my way
home it would not be problem since it was working ok ....?....!
there are some other issues i would discuss..... later....
i did not leave the cab because the operator was dumping on me how
much he was on the edge and almost was totally burned out !!
i took in what he said and i was a good listener to him ...
he needed someone to vent his total frustrations big time !!
i really just wanted 2 put the cam in there and get out ........
oh well this whole thing went wrong & feel bad about it
a horrible incident on the #4 ate the end of the shooting video....
..............( sigh ) ..........
That sounds like it would nicely circumvent the unauthorized person in the cab problem, but then it raises the whole separate issue of getting a permit for the tripod to make it fully 100% OK.
-Robert King
the operator could say it is his !
everybody wins
No, not quite.
That could subject the operator to a grilling over why someone who is already qualified on a line needs to videotape it. Not to mention that LYING causes more problems than telling the truth.
You might want to play Microsoft Train Simulator for a few weeks while things cool down. You may also want to think about whether your quest for footage should entail lying or even fudging to get what you need. I get to collect back room information on NYC transport issues without doing anything illegal or shady...it's not worth the risk.
he could say he was taping the line for a friend
BLX is a regular on the bustalk site. BLX posted a short message on that side about the train operator who was killed. The messages BLX got was 'What does this have to do with buses' - 'This belongs on subtalk' - 'I'm sure subtalk posted on this already'. Hey, BLX says that a fellow transit worker (who was only 23) died and should be given a little respect. Members of the subtalk side should take a look at bus talk and give your thoughts. BLX is out, peace to all my brothers and sisters, fellow transit workers and to transit buffs/fans. And last, rest in peace former airtrain operator.
The only thing wrong I see about the whole incident is that the train was probably going too fast around that curve. The blocks of cement should have been secured. What I mean is, If the line had been opened, maybe the same thing would have happened with customers on board. I don't think the operator is to be blamed.
I don't he meant it in terms of disrespect. I think it's the fact that so MANY threads have been placed on the Subtalk side of the forums and another one isn't exactly needed. And in Bustalk of all things.
I have somewhat stayed away from this topic,cause it kinda ''pissed me off'' so to speak...but to hear that the young man ''died''? oh gezz... GOD BLESS HIM,HE WAS JUST DOING HIS JOB....I send my best out to his ''fam'',AND the PA do the ''RIGHT THING''towards them... just my two cents worth.
I have somewhat stayed away from this topic,cause it kinda ''pissed me off'' so to speak...but to hear that the young man ''died''? oh gezz... GOD BLESS HIM,HE WAS JUST DOING HIS JOB....I send my best out to his ''fam'',AND the PA do the ''RIGHT THING''towards them... just my two cents worth.
I agree, but what's with the double post? And how can they be an hour apart! 8(
ya got me! Been doing map painting for some of my comic book art,at the sametime.you try doing 32 pages worth of ink-n-paint,and you'll see what I mean!!! :P
I agree with you 100%.
But Zman wants to know why BLX talks about himself in the third person? By the way, Zman in my opinion is the sexiest man in the world. Zman's always fightin' off the wimmins.
What does your prowess with the opposite sex have to do with this thread?
If his wife reads this thread she will throw from from the train and we will have another fatality.
If Zman gets thrown from the train, will the NTSB investigate the NYT again?
Zman wouldn't like getting thrown from the train. At least that's what I've been told.
But AEM7 would quite like getting thrown from the train. At the rate that AEM7's other half is treating AEM7, she may as well throw him from a train *G* Might be more comfortable. But AEM7 cannot prove or disprove this since AEM7 has never been thrown from a train.
AEM7
Zman thinks that you wouldn't like getting thrown from a train. Most likely, the aftermath would result in two AEM3&1/2's
Is AEM-7 in M's doghouse? :0(
Is AEM-7 in M's doghouse? :o(
Yes. I seem to have just gotten out of it. She was very nice and wonderful today. Dealing with girls can be like dealing with the MTA -- when they're stressed out, it's best to just let things be. By the same token, don't push the MTA to build the 2nd Ave el when the economy is in the craps and when they have a bunch of lines in Lower Manhattan to re-build. On the other hand, once we get past this economic recession, we need to get the 2nd Ave el under construction as soon as possible!
AEM7
>>> But Zman wants to know why BLX talks about himself in the third person <<<
Zman will not find out by posting here. BLX posted to Bus Talk asking why no one mentioned the Airtrain accident after there were already 230 Sub Talk posts on the subject. When he came to Sub Talk, instead of posting to an existing thread he started a new one. I doubt that he reads Sub Talk :-)
Tom
You are correct, BLX is on bustalk. However, this whole situation pissed BLX off, that's why I tried to find some decency in the transit purists on the rail side. BLX speaks in the 3rd person beacuse BLX hasn't found out how to speak in the second or fourth person. Don't be concerned how BLX speaks, if you agree with him, don't be afraid to say so. There are those on bustalk that read the words of BLX, agree with BLX, but for fear of alienating fellow bus buffs, don't post in response to BLX. The main thing of BLX is that he speaks for the people, he sends peace and love to all. If you can't feel the vibes that BLX transmits, then find your inner self and be at peace with that. BLX is user friendly, talk to him. Love to all, surface, rail, boat, plane, rickshaw, any forms of mass transit.
I have last year's instructions and pricing. Are the prices and shipping charges the same for '03?
>>I have last year's instructions and pricing. Are the prices and shipping charges the same for '03?<<
If you were the one who e-mailed me this question, I answered your question tonight.
If you are someone different, please e-mail me at: newkirk@optonline.net
Bill "Newkirk"
it was me who emailed you. we're cool.
it was me who emailed you. we're cool. thanks
I am planning to meet with Sea Beach Fred Friday Oct 11th at the Penna Hotel 33rd and 7th Xcross from MSG. After dropping my Mother-In Law at 75th and York Ave, I will need to park the car for 1bout 24 hours hours. Then pick the car up To drive to Rockland County Saturday Afternoon and evening, and then repark it it until Monday PM. Can anybody suggest where to park. near a bus or subway line
DoT garage on the Queens side of the 59th Street Bridge (at Northern Plvd.) is adjacent to Queens Plaza EFGVR and Queensbro Plaza 7N stations. Last time I was there, it was about $8/day.
thanks.
What time on the 11th are you two supposed to meet? I work right across the street at One Penn Plaza. Drop me an email if it's during business hours.
Bob: That depends when I'm able to check in and when Bob arrives. He should know when he arrives in about three days and then he will let me know. I should be able to check in around 10:00 a.m. What I'm hoping is that we can touch base around two in the afternoon and then tool on out to meet heypaul who is going to meet me in Coney Island. I'm hoping the Cyclone is open so I can get my big thrill for the day.
Try the Port Authority Bus Terminal parking garage. Rates are cheap (relatively speaking). And, you're one stop away from MSG on the A, C, or E.
http://www.newsday.com/ny-jfk0929,0,1201645.story?coll=ny%2Dtop%2Dheadlines
Perhaps what we may see is both services debuting together...
I made it to the festival from 9am to noon...really not that much
to see compared to years back. On Display, NJTs ALP46,CometV car,M&E Locos,2 restored heavyweight observation cars,MofW equipment & the PATH Diesel & 2 cars. Just a few vendors...and not much of a crowd.I did get to ride (free)the light rail extension from Hob to Bayonne (opening day today)...its really slow...but nice & clean.
It got crowded later. I saw BMT-BRT man there. I rode the Waterway trip and the Wild West train as well as the Light Rail to Bayonne and back. Those three rides made for a full enough day, considering that I rode the NEC and PATH to get to Hoboken in the first place.
Also paid $2 to go into the NYC observation car. The $2 benefitted the URHS, which is restoring the car.
Even though the Washington Street fair was four blocks away, I think it was smart to schedule both fairs on the same day. Compared to other years, it seemed to me that the displays and vendors were fewer, but the opening of the light rail drew such large crowds that they ran out of free tickets by noon. I rode south to Liberty State Park, then got on a northbound. I expected the crowd to get off at Newport shopping mall, but, not they were going to Hoboken (and, it seemed, paying for the ride). The terminal concourse and waiting room was at least as crowded as in previous years, or more so. I was glad to see a busy information table at NJ-ARP. I was also glad to see the author Ken French with his new photo book (Arcadia series), Railroads of Hoboken and Jersey City. I especially like the aerial views, as they help me understand the waterfront map better.
washington st was packed to the gills. lots of food and other stands, the smells where fatting.
Wish I could have been there. Hopefully next year it will again be on a Sunday (no more Saturdays!) and also not on a Jewish holiday.
--Brian
I got my photos uploaded onto my Webshots "Around New Jersey 2" page.
Where did u take this picture?How can I get there by public transit?
nice shot!
Where did u take this picture?How can I get there by public transit?
nice shot!
Conrail Shared Assets
Thanks.
That's where the Beesley's Point Secondary crosses Warwick Road at the border between Somerdale and Magnolia, Camden County, about 12 miles southeast of Center City Philly. There is a NJT bus, but service is sparse. It's maybe a three mile walk from PATCO's Ashland station.
The trains often sit here for 15 minutes while the crew gets dinner, with a deli, pizzeria, and Chinese take-out restaurant in a small strip mall 50 feet away.
This track is former Conrail, Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines, Reading, Atlantic City Railroad. Used to be double track, and many years ago there was a trolley line (Camden to Clementon) on the other side of the track(s).
I was there with my family from about 1 to 5. Was rather disappointed by the relative lack of old equipment to go on compared to 2000, when there was among other things the mail train. There was a nice assortment of old buses outside, as well as Newark PCC#10- whose interior was unfortunately marred by a merchandise table laid across the seats on one side. We somehow managed to avoid the kitschy street fair attractions in the plaza, and never made it to Washington Street due to time and exhaustion.
It was my wife's first time on PATH, on the HBLR, and in Hoboken by daylight. Lisa was impressed by PATH's speed under the river, the renovated Hoboken terminal, the skyline views from HBLR and the proliferation of high-rises on the Jersey City riverfront. She was stunned by the huge array of old equipment (R10 car number plate, anyone?), magazines, uniform insignia, maps, roll signs, pictures, schedules, etc. for sale. I kept asserting her that we rail buffs really do take this stuff seriously- especially those with money and space. We bought Bill Newkirk's 2003 calendar for Rob's room.
The HBLR extension was interesting, especially for the sweeping view of the NJT terminal approaches, passage over the Holland Tunnel portals and triangle junction with the future northerly extension. We only rode to Liberty Park and back, where the speed was typically sluggish. How can the depressed economy support all this fancy new real estate along the ROW? True, a lot of it was occupied before PATH service to the WTC was violently severed- which may have originally been a big selling point. The automatic PA still announces the PATH connection at Exchange Place!
Due to the hectic pace we kept- with all there was to do, we were often running around like chickens without heads- I saw only in passing Dave, HART Bus, Doug, Mark W and probably a whole bunch of others I know by appearance, if not name. I was engaged in a lengthy conversation with one fellow by the new NJT suburban coaches who was very knowledgeable on the subject. Could that have been Trevor?
After Branford on Saturday and Hoboken yesterday, this was a very short, but exciting weekend!
P.S: Afterward, we exited PATH at 9th Street, ate at Uno's on 6th Avenue and walked over to Sheridan Square to get the 1 up to Times Square. Every storefront on Christopher Street had a sign reading "No PATH Expansion". I tried to explain this to Lisa, having read all about it on this board. Somehow no matter how you explain it, it doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't the locals WANT additional entrances to augment the existing, extremely congested, poorly located ones?
Exchange Place is at least in walking distance of Grove Street (not that it's fun in bad weather though).
Additional entrances allow "unwanted individuals" easier access to more areas of NY. If they are all funnelled through one place people feel less threatened by them.
The stores DON'T WANT business from NJ people, since they aren't able to "read" them (i.e. exercise their prejudices) as well.
NYC-ians still look at PATH as "bringing unwanted NJ-ians in". NJ is another world to them. Everything in NJ is thought of as being farther away than anything in Manhattan.
>>There was a nice assortment of old buses outside, as well as Newark PCC#10<<
Looks like PCC #10 got a repaint. Looked good.
>>We bought Bill Newkirk's 2003 calendar for Rob's room.<<
Way to go Howiee !!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I was there...and had LOTS of fun! I was there with the light blue Ecko T-Shirt and baggy pants. Got interior shots of ALP-46 before it was roped off, as well as all of the other diesel engines. Had fun with friend in PATH train (PA and cab fun) and in the new Comet (Buzzer fun!). Oh man, I had a blast as you can see below!
Yeaaaa boy!!!
How did the floor plan of Penn station differ from its current arrangement back when the original building was still standing?
The LIRR level was much like it is now. A major difference is that there was a diret exit in the middle of the north side of the LIRR level to 33rd Street. If you wanted to get to 34th Street, you could walk through the Greyhound depot that located there until it was moved out to Port Authority. Port Authority was open at the time but the Mutt didn't use it.
The main level, however, was dramatically different. I'm going from memory, but it's fairly vivid in most details.
Entering from 7th Avenue, you entered at street level opposite 32nd Street, as now. However, you didn't go down escalators, you walked through a long wide street level corridor. This was undoubtedly magnificient in its time, but by the '60s was dingy and lined with closed shops, a sort of early mall. IIRC, the current entrance level ecisted underneath, but my memories of it are fuzzy.
About where the current escaltors from the current mid0station taxi driveway are, their were stairs and (IIRC) escaltors to take you down to the main level. It was some sight as your view of the waiting room and station opened up as you approached these stairs. Immediately in front of you were the ticket windows, which were set into a convex front. Behind these ticket windows were an area of ticket vending cases, reservation books, clerks, desk, etc.
To get to the train gates you walked around to the north or south of the ticket booths, where you entered into the boarding area. This was an incredible sight with its vaulted glass ceiling. Smoke from the dining cars collected near the top of this ceiling, making the sunshine hazy, kind of the opposite of the dining hall at Hogwarts.
My memory is that there were staircases left and right to 31st and 33rd, but for sure there was a huge staircase up to 8th Avenur where 32nd Street would be if it ran through.
At the top of this staircase you also turned to take the elevator for the YMCA, which also where the NY Division ERA meetings were.
Oh, another point of interest, there were direct exit mid-block on both the 31st and 33rd sides to the taxi driveways. Instead of you going up to the taxis, the taxis came down to you, via ramps obscured within the station walls on the north and south sides. By the end of the station, only the 33rd Street side was open, I think.
I don't get soppy about all the stuff I've seen that is gone, but it really aches to talk about Penn Station. Someone asked here a while ago if Penn Station was really so great, or is it just nostalgia. Well, I remember both Penn and Grand Central in that era, as well as Reading Terminal, and a number of others. Penn Station blew them all away. If there is such a thing as an architectural felony, tearing down Penn Station was it.
Thanks for the great discription. What a shame it is gone. It's amazing that back then they thought it was a good idea to tear it down. Madison Square Garden could have been built anywhere, and just have non-descript buildings torn down. I've never been in the old station because it was torn down years before I was born, but when I compare photos of the old Penn to Grand Central, it does seem to have blown it away.
I know NY almost lost Grand Central also, and luckily it still stands, as it is a beautiful building, but it may have been better if Penn survived as opposed to GC, as it is the main gateway station (via Amtrak) to NY, and it was an amazing building, the nicer of the two. I guess we should be happy that we have at least one of the two, but can you imagine if Penn Station had survived a few more years, and a renovation on the scale of Grand Central was done! That would be some asset to the city, if a resotored Penn still stood.
The Penn Station demolition is even more dismal when you realize some of the reasons behind it. It was suggsted that the new Madison Square Garden by built to replace some of the nondescript small comemrcial buildings nearby, such as between 29th and 31st. It would effectively have been as good transportation wise.
The great "attraction" to using the Penn Station site was that the location could be purchased from a single owner instead of having to be assembled piecemeal, thereby risking recalcitrant sellers, and that the Pennsy already had City permission to close 32nd Street.
At least it can be said that Penn Station didn't die in vain. It's the reason for the Landmarks Presevation law that was eventually passed
Besides, if they ever do move over to the Post office biulding, and considereing the nice NJT concourse they just opened, we may end up with something just as impressive. (except for maybe us LIRR riders!)
we may end up with something just as impressive.
If they ever build it, you'll get my opinon on that one!
Yeah, the plans seem to be pretty nice if they do complete it. I guess having the post office as the new Penn Station is a lot better than we have now, and at least the Farley Building was designed by the same architect.
You could walk straight ahead from the arcade through the main waiting room to the concourse before they put in that clamshell ticket counter. I don't remember any of this; my lone experience in what was left of Penn Station was in July of 1965. Someone posted here that the concourse was still intact that summer; about the only thing I can remember is the announcer's voice booming over the loudspeakers and that our train departed from Track 2.
I think the concourse was the last thing to be torn down.
The tearing down was an amazing thing to experience. It happened over years. In order to go through and exit the station you went through all kinds of temporary passageways. At one point to exit to 8th Avenue you went up a wooden staircase, through one of the huge windows, then down to 8th Avenue.
I wish I could remember how we got from the concourse to the LIRR waiting area. I have no recollection whatsoever of the demolition going on, and I didn't notice anything from the 86th floor of the Empire State Building the following day. Too bad my father didn't take any pictures in that direction.
That must have been a really nice sight from the Empire State Building seein the old Penn Station concourse - especially if it was at night and all lit up. I was on the ESB about 3 weeks ago and remember looking over at Madison Square Garden from up there and wondering what Penn must have looked like sitting there.
The only drawback to that was that you had a clear view of the arcade from the ESB, but the main waiting room blocked part of the view of the concourse. Again, by 1965, the concourse was about all that was still standing and I didn't notice anything from the ESB when we were there. Come to think of it, I missed out on a lot of things during that visit to NYC such as Transit Day at the World's Fair (by one or two days; we were there on the 20th); seeing the Triplexes during their final hours of service; and noticing anything about what was left of Penn Station. OTOH I rode on the subway for the very first time on the 21st, and I remember those shiny new R-32s very well.
During the demolition/construction period, the walk along the passageway that connected Penn Station to the downtown platform of the IRT Seventh Ave. local at 32nd St. was one of the most byzantine laybrinths ever created, a route which went south towards 31st St. first, then down, then back north and then up to the IRT platform.
An extremely cool entrance for the seven-year-old subway fan, though even then I wasn't happy to see the old station torn down, which was the reason behind it in the first place.
I've got some architectural drawings of the original Penn Station, including a floor plan of the main level. I'll try to get them scanned and posted one of these days.
-- David
Collingswood, NJ
The Nth Ward
I recently posted a question about a passageway.
I collect postcards and have many of old New York Hotels. I have one from 1945 of the "NEW YORKER" hotel on 8th ave and 34th? I stayed there last month for a few days.
On the back of the postcard it says "Private tunnel to Penn Station".
Where could this have been? It must have gone Under the Subway.
Anyone have any info on this?
PS.. I investigated the Hotel and found that it has 4 Basement levels below the street level. There were many cameras all over the place and many doors were locked, so I didn't get a chance to find the old exit of of the hotel to Penn Sation.
Later
ROB
rodco@rodcogroup.com
Figuring out dates of maps and photos (and accurate locations of the latter) are an art form. But it's always nice to have some help, especially since maps may have inaccuracies and anachronisms for many reasons. Until the '70s Hagstrom maps contained a "secret" letter code to show month and year of publication, revealed in The Hagstrom Map Company Publication Code.
Of all the fetishes in the world. :-)
... but, as Peewee would say, I'm not going to marry them. :)
I wouldn't marry a map myself. But I would use an older map at work as opposed to a newer map made by one of the other map companies.
What's the point of this thread?
I'm not thrilled about the new Hagstrom Atlases that aren't hand drawn. The old ones were better and more accurate.
I'm not exactly fond of the mew style Hagstrom maps either. I also noticed that the Latitude and Longitude positions that they indicate are inaccurate.
#3 West End Jeff
I'm told that they aren't going to proceed with digitizing the entire line, perhaps from the outcry of map traditionalists (like your webmaster)
www.forgotten-ny.com
What's the point of this thread?
Did you read the original post?
I have a '49 Hagstrom Atlas that clearly says "1949", which is rare for them. The "new" Hagstroms are difficlut to read. I stocked up on the "old" style ones while they were still available.
Yes I did, and still don't get it.
Where the thread is going is not where it started. The original post has a link to information on figuring out the dates on Hagstrom maps, which helps in ON-TOPIC historical research.
Some people like the Hagstrom maps. I find them very useful when I have to give someone directions while I'm at work.
Just looking at the title of this thread...and I gotta say, FlyerLover, you gotta get out more! I'm a roadgeek too, and I've been there. Saturday nights can be lonely if you have an unpopular hobby. But really now!
:-D Andrew
shuldnt you get them drunk first? Befe loving them, i mean.
DAMN! Paul, that's a pretty Kinky of ya...;)
Thing is, you can't drive them to an out-of-the-way dead end street.
They always know exactly where they are. :)
LOL!! Glad we can go back to laughing here every once in a while (we could really use it!)
Thing is, you can't drive them to an out-of-the-way dead end street.
They always know exactly where they are. :)
That's why you have to find one from out of town!
I just checked my favorite Hagstrom map. It has an H-SX code, January 1940. It shows the 75th Street station (not 76th!) on the Fulton line under construction, to be opened in 1943. I can't determine if the 75th and Pitkin station would be in Brooklyn or Queens.
75 St would be the borough line. One side would be 75 St. The other side would be Ruby St. If possible could you scan that piece of map? There will probably be some heated discussion about it.
When I interviewed at Hagstrom C-MH my interviewer was...
Greg Christiano. I sent him a email abt it a few months ago. He says he got tired of Hagstroms and quit soon after C-MH..
www.forgotten-ny.com
Interesting to find your post on this board. I worked at The Hammond Map Store (which was subsequently sold by Hammond to Hagstrom) from 1972 until 1978. Among the items we sold were Hagstrom maps, so naturally I knew the code. I always thought it was rather sneaky of Hagstrom to encode the date of the map.
I read once that a map company purposely left little errors in their maps. In case a new map company copied their maps to avoid making their own.
A Hagstrom representative "confessed" this to me, but said they usually limited the practice to fictitious deadends so as not to overly mislead map users.
When I worked at Hagstrom I got a rundown on the some of the practices. They were especially fond of fictious shorelines.
The code uses H-A-G-S-T-R-O-M-C-X, but what do the "C" and "X" stand for?
The "C" stoof for "Compasny," the "X" stood for "We already used 'O', so an unknown letter is 'Xactly' what we need."
The Hagstrom date codes are enormously useful to subway map collectors, but they do have some quirks.
Gregory Christiano wrote, regarding the date codes:
"The practice has been abandoned since 1978. Anyone who has a Hagstrom map before that date will notice there is no date on the map anywhere to be found."
This not strictly true. Some of the pre-1978 maps (c. 1947-1952) had both dates and date codes. So do some the post-1978 maps. Some early maps had neither date nor code. Greg Christiano does not say when the date codes started, but the earliest code I have seen is H-SX = Jan. 1940. But even after January 1940 some maps did not have codes.
The following is a list of most of the Hagstrom maps that I know about (from my own collection plus some courtesy of John Rofrano & Charlie Sokol).
This shows that the date code is variously (a) earlier than, or (b) the same as, or (c) later than, the stated date. And sometimes the date code implies month = zero.
CoverMapKeyCode
Hagstrom loose sheets
Handwritten:
"March 1, 1940" No code!
After "June 1940" No code!
R-SG = Jun. 1943
Hagstrom Midget Subway maps
C-SH = Sep. 1941
S-TH = Apr. 1951
Hagstrom Subway Maps
H-SX = Jan. 1940
M-SA = Aug. 1942
"July 1947""As of Aug. 1947"C-SO = Sep. 1947
"July 1950""As of June 1950"M-TX = Aug. 1950
"March 1952""As of March 1952"G-TA = Mar. 1952
"1997" C-CO = September 1997
"2000" C-XX = September 2000
Board of Transportation re-badged maps
"Oct. 1, 1948" X-SM = Zero 1948
"Nov. 28, 1948"
"Dec. 1, 1948"
"July 1, 1949" A-SC = Feb. 1949
"Oct. 23, 1949" HH-SC = Nov. 1949
"May 15, 1951" S-TH = Sep. 1951
"August 15, 1952" M-TA = Aug. 1952
"Dec. 15, 1952"
"September 1, 1953" M-TG = August 1953
Hagstrom street maps
"1930 Edition" No code!
"1953 Edition" G-TH = March 1951
Chemical Bank re-badged subway map
(c.1930s) No code!
(c.1956) No code!
19641964 No code!
NY Phone Company re-badged subway map
R-SG = Jun. 1943
M-TG = Aug. 1953
"7-55" R-TT = Jun. 1955
"7-55" R-TR = Jun. 1956
"7-57" T-TR = May. 1956
"2-59" A-TC = Feb. 1959
"12-60" No code!
The modern codes are somewhat expanded:
Map:"1997" code:C-CO-CR-1099 (C-CO = September 1997)
Map:"2000" code:C-XX-PR-1699 (C-XX = September 2000)
(What the "CR-1099" and "PR-1699" mean I have no idea.)
I just realized both how little and how much I know. It's truly annoying that I could knock up a center of gravity calculation for a traincar just like that (see thread about Shifting Loads). But then, the damn thing is that I know enough engineering to do that kind of back of the envelope calculation but I don't know enough engineering to build a traincar or sign off a master plan for a traincar. This means I won't make any money in engineering, yet being a semi-engineer I keep on doing this kind of half assed analysis and other people ask me to do this kind of thing as if I were an engineer.
I wish I were one of those airheads who can't do calculations for shit. That way at least I would have a social life and I wouldn't get labelled "engineer" wherever I went. Why do I have to be both so good and so bad at math? I'm good enough to want to do the calculations, and yet I'm bad enough that I flunked Physics at college...
AEM7
(I wish I were one of those airheads who can't do calculations for shit. That way at least I would have a social life and I wouldn't
get labelled "engineer" wherever I went. Why do I have to be both so good and so bad at math? I'm good enough to want to do the calculations, and yet I'm bad enough that I flunked Physics at college... )
Hey, if I had "gotten" calculus in high school I might have ended up a civil engineer. But I didn't, and I ended up a city planner. Perhaps you are lucky. As they say in the field -- those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't teach administrate, and those who can administrate plan. After 13 years of that I got so fed up I moved over to administrating.
I wish I were one of those airheads who can't do calculations for shit. That way at least I would have a social life and I wouldn't get labelled "engineer" wherever I went. Why do I have to be both so good and so bad at math? I'm good enough to want to do the calculations, and yet I'm bad enough that I flunked Physics at college...
Think about how it would be if you got out of college with a useless "liberal arts" degree and ended up flipping burgers.
Think about how it would be if you got out of college with a useless "liberal arts" degree and ended up flipping burgers.
I did get out of college with a liberal arts degree: B.A. (Psychology). If all I were capable of doing is flipping burgers, I might be content and happy flipping burgers... of course, the problem I face is that I cannot legally flip burgers in this country, and I must do engineering -- all because I can engineer, but only sort of.
I've got something of an interesting background... I think that if I had specialized in engineering as soon as I went to college, it would have annoyed the hell out of me because I would have been stuck in something pretty specialist without knowing much else. But I went for physics and it was even worse. Now I am glad that I took the first two years of a physics degree but it still annoys me how much engineering I do not know. I think CI Peter's post earlier really makes a lot of sense -- it's what you don't know, and experience counts... and we should all tough it out because someone someday would realize what we're worth even though there are always people who do it better. Geesh, I'm making no sense, never mind me, I'll regain my senses in a little while.
Life is complicated when you get presented with options. At least, if all I could do was flip bergers, I would be doing that without having to choose what else I might do...!
If I started college again, what would I take? I don't know -- I enjoyed my psychology, and my physics was really good grounding for all the engineering stuff that I've been hit with in my job. But I still don't know engineering. Maybe if I worked in a engine house for a few years, I would learn some engineering... I should do that.
AEM7
AEM7: You make a lot of sense. Sometimes you'll get called upon not for your engineering skills but what you can observe, deduce, surmise and conclude. Pretty basic steps in Physics 101. If your interest is strong enough, you'll catch something continuosly overlooked.
First week in 239ths 'Troubles,' bored like hell doing nothing and overwhelmed by trainset size....biggest thing I ever worked on was five ton roller coaster simulator. Supervisor gets me this big book of R142 electrical schematics, asks me to check out why the VHF radio is not working in a trainset and takes me to the site. Just a few minutes with the DVM I brought from home and I announce the 37.5/13.8 volt DC/DC invertor is inoperative...lack of LCD displays should have been a hint. Told that radio had been changed out and nobody could restore operation....unit was replaced under the Bombardier warranty. I was proclaimed a genius...just did what I knew.
That's the way it goes...just attempt to do the work faithfully with interest and effort and 'go with the flow.' Don't fret the lack of class time...chances our your supervisors know less than you. I'd like to get my degree...lots of college credits and 'life experience credits.' One day...I will. CI Peter
AEM7...it is a matter of age. Every day I realise how much I know, how much I do not know and how much I have forgotten. Sometimes I ask the Lord to preserve me because I feel I'm going senile. Just got into flak with shop steward because he said something really stupid and i said I am an engineer. Guy got a big laugh during our safety meeting...big mouth shop steward does not SPEAK ENGLISH fluenty enough for ICAO communications. Years ago, 'engineer' was a job title earned by experience and competence on the job. It was not college degree, it was not PE exam, but experience of record. Twemty five years ago, I started as 'transmitter tech,' moved into 'junior Engineer' and left employment recognised as 'Engineer.' I don't remember everything, I can't operate my slide rule anymore, can't do more than draw out rudementary HF transmitter schematics BUT give me a site with a serious problem and I'll have em back on the air if parts aree available. Now, I'm just a Car Inspector changing out oil and brakes but after a year, I'm remembering my roots, my experience and recognising my up to date licenses. I am an engineer, I am skilled, licensed and professional...my talents have not been used in many years. Mess with me Mr. union and you get a one way trip back to Guyana. AEM7, you too are an engineer and do not put yourself down to deal with the bottom of Americas immigrants. Retain your respect and stand up proud...you cannot imagine how many times these babble mouthed incoherents demand my service as a 'troubleshooter' to bail them out of what they should have been able to repair. One day, TA will wake up to the situation...and we will be resting long and cold in our graves. In the meantime, you and I give our best with little or no recognition. CI Peter
I just graduated with my Bachelor degree in Mechanical Engineering, and I don't know enough to sign off on a master plan for a railcar either. But then you shouldn't know that when you first start out, you start out by doing these sort of back of the envelope calculations, as you put it, and work your way up from there!
Failing Physics and stuff like that have nothing to do with it. I failed a few engineering courses in university and still managed to pull off a great summer work term last year doing engine calculations on Navy vessels with the Canadian Department of National Defence.
If you have an aptitude for engineering, then become an engineer!! It'll pay off in the end!!
When on This board please qualify "Engineer" with "Mechanical". The default prefix to Engineer on Subtalk is "Locomotive".
Only 'Engineer' on this board I know of is Grounded Shoe Beam now working in New Jersey and God Bless. Mechanical Engineer? 'Badges, badges, I ain't got no stinkin badges.' The TA does not know what they have in us and when we make the effort to exert our knowledge and experience, some idiot tries to shoot us down. I know degreed engineers that started as car inspectors...they were happier doing that work and now would probably be making more money based upon salary, benefits and perks. Everyone using laptops in R142s goes crazy with downloads...they still don't realise the trainset is just one big pinball machine operated by multiple processors, LANs and driver boards. 'Hit the bumper ring, switch matrix is closed momentarily, central CPU picks up the activation, software subroutine goes into action, DC control power is momentarily applied through a ground supplied by a switching transistor activating bumper solenoid, CPU sends data to score display and sound card....100 points 'BOING.''
linking ten cars in a trainset is like linking ten driving simulators together in a race simulation. Stuff is so easy....I still do brakes and oil. CI Peter
Whine, whine, whine....
Recognizing what you don't know is as important as what you do know. That's tremendous, a credit to you. You now know what gaps you have to fill in your education.
If physics interests you, learn it - do it at your own pace, audit a course, consult a mentor.
Everyone flunks something now and then. Einstein required extensive tutoring in math before he was able to complete the work on his General Theory of Relativity.
Who says you can't learn to design a railcar? If that is what you want to do - fine, do it. Hit a wall in a class - find a way around it, or over it.
If you want something badly enough, you'll find a way to do it.
'If you want something badly enough, you'll find a way to do it.'
Thanks Ron...my motto of work. Everyone in the #5 180/239th crew was shuffled for inspection duties but myself and one other Car Inspector.
Throw me a problem I'm unfamiliar with and I'll go to it...if I ask a Supervisor for a procedure, the work is generally completed without any supervision. CI Peter
HERE IS THE SECRET. APPLY DIRECTLY TO THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE
ATTENTION MRS WILSON
METRO NORTH RAILROAD
ATTENTION MRS SHARON FALLOON
LONG ISLAND RAILROAD
AND U GOTTA KEEP ONSLAUGHTING THEM WITH RESUMES! TRUST ME! I WORK FOR METRO NORTH, SO THATS THE ONLY WAY TO GET IN. IM ABOUT TO USE MY SECRETS AGAIN TO TRANSFER TO LIRR AS A LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER. u gotta mail them like every 2-3 weeks. i mailed one like 2 weeks ago. ima mail another one tomorrow
Not going to make a jump yet...I have been in regular contact with TA engineering department on site. We will see what December 15th brings. CI Peter
caught the long island BUS from the hempstead station to long beach ny
arrived in the afternoon hourson a lazy sunday at the lirr long beach
station & saw it 4 the first time in my life..
got off of the bus there walked into the lirr station saw a lot of MU
cars sitting there fired off about 7 digital shots or so!
as usual folks seemed 2 be frendly and did not mind which is the usual
every time i take pictures of the long island railroad stations & the
rail cars anywhere ................................................
having taken a few shots not it is time 2 go see the beach which
reminded me somewhat of long beach back in california !!
BUT >>>>>>>>>>suddenly here comes this long beach [ robo cop ]
with a beast look on his face beaming at me like he is going 2 do
something nasty 2 me !! I could feel it coming this monster !!
this crap drags on & on about why i was taking pictures of the trains
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
OH NO !! here we go again !!!!!!!!!!
i remember this white woman conductor wave a frendly smile at me..BUT,
some white bigot lady on the train( a lirr conductor )she said radioed
in that some bald headed BLACK MAN was taking pictures of the train!!
OMG !! i mean i was really committing SOME BIG CRIME HERE FOLKS !!
i am sorry folks but this time i had 2 tell him that if i was a
WHITE MALE PHOTOGRAPHER ............nothing would have been done ...no radio call......
& no complaint at all would have been made here ....!!!
it took another 1/2 hour to wait until my california id was cleared!!
i am also sure if i was a WHITE MALE i would not have had 2 show my
id either !! i probably would have not been asked 2 stop at all !!
the officer turend almost red in the face at my suggestion of this!
i am a rail / bus transit photographer first my race-religion should
not matter 2 anyone at all , as long as i am not doing anything wrong
and taking pictures of the historic lirr long beach station is not !!
( i took some more shots later that night no problem )
this did not rise 2 the level of this racist hate at all !!
sorry folks but i am in the hobby of taking train / transit shots
and no criminal actions whatsoever !!
this officer should not have gone to such a high level to me in my
opinion because i am a black railfan photographer
this is my opinion and hell yes i am a mad as hell about this !!
i dont care if i m attacked about this post i am telling the truth
about this totally racist incident which this bigot white female
conductor should be questioned about her real motives and the
long beach mta officer as well !!!
a much more civilized not assuming i was a fleeing escaped felon
because i am a black man first should not have been in those 2
horrible folks at the long beach lirr station today sunday
afternoon sept 29 .02- 4:30pm!!
he also tole me how horrible the village of hempstead is !!...???
i am telling this like it really happened this should not happen
2 anyone for this reason ..... i know i got this one right this
time
Finally we all need to stand up 4 our rights to take pictures of
trains and public transit here in america or we are going 2
loose it altogether .....thankz again salaamallah
...............no ...lol
...what are the requirements and how does one apply?
Uhhhh... Go Down to NYC Transit Headquaters and get a application, and fill out a resume.
-AcelaExpress2005
All resumes go to Jamaica. Unless something has changed they don't have a formal application and they are NOT civil service.
It is still resume but you have to set it up a certain way.
What does " NYC Transit Headquaters " have to do with the Long Island Railroad??
I assume you mean locomotive engineers? They do need the other kind too.
For locomotive engineer you must ALREADY be an employee. Despite what was said last week I do not believe they are currently hirng right now, they just generated an internal list not een two months ago.