At a few underground stations, the only ways to get to a platform entail walking up a flight. (Think of the island platform at Essex, where access is only via the IND mezzanine below. Cortlandt on the N/R may become another example shortly.) Similarly, at a few elevated stations, the only ways to get to a platform entail walking down a flight. (Think of the J/Z platform at Broadway Junction/Eastern Parkway, where the only extant mezzanine is above the platforms, or of the SB L platform at the same station, where access is via an overpass.)
What are some other examples? Or former examples?
Here are the ones I can think of:
NB(?) 1/9 at 66th Street (rectified in the rehab; until then, one platform had only part-time entry)
3 at 34th Street (access via underpass)
SB 4/5 at Wall Street (part-time entrance only; other times use underpass)
SB 4 at Bowling Green (part-time entrance only)
SB 1/2/4 at Nevins Street (part-time entrance only)
4/5 and SB 1/2 at Atlantic Avenue (access via underpass from NB 1/2 or BMT mezzanines)
M at Wyckoff Avenue (access via L mezzanine, I think)
J/Z and NB L at Broadway Junction (see above)
NB J/M/Z at Essex Street (see above)
NB J/M/Z at Canal Street (the wraparound was closed recently, so access is via underpass)
NB A at Dyckman Street (entry via underpass from SB platform)
A at 34th Street (access via underpass)
NB G at Fulton Street (not sure what the status of the NB fare control is, but it's definitely not full-time entry)
That's all I can think of, but I'm sure there are more. Anybody?
N/B 1/9 at 168 Street, only access is via an overpass. Perhaps 181 and 191 are similar?
I don't remember. Are there a few steps up from the elevator to the overpass? I think there are. If so this is a winner.
I think there are. It's been a couple of years since I've been there (wow, I used to be there a couple times a weeks -- times change).
CG
I think there are. It's been a couple of years since I've been there (wow, I used to be there a couple times a weeks -- times change).
Also, Dyckman on the 1 might qualify with an asterisk. At the southern end of the platform, you're well below street level. But the only way out is a stairway going down at the northern end of the platforms.
CG
yes they are.
East 105th on the L ... you have to go up stairs to get to the mezzanine, but the tracks are down below that on street level.
But the tracks are at street level, not below. Doesn't count.
Ah, but the platform is above street level, and you have to go down to get there!
It's a pretty cheap technicality, I admit....
It isn't exactly what I was looking for, since you don't ultimately want to go either up or down. But we could add it in a footnote. In the same category add Broad Channel and, temporarily, Howard Beach SB with its temporary island platform.
Kingsbridge on the D. At the South end you go down to exit via part-time booth and then either out to the Grand Concourse underpass or up to the Grand Concourse.
Many Concourse Line station have grade level (or just a few steps) to the Concourse udnerpass and thern up to the Concourse.
M at Wyckoff Avenue (access via L mezzanine, I think
That is true sometimes. Actually both of the original "end mezzanine entrances on Wyckoff are abandoned and removed (the current stairways throught the "station building" were probably added when the Canarsie line was built. When the station building is open it's not unusual. You walk in and either go down for the el, or up for the M. However, I believe off hours and weekends they close the station building (or at least they used to - not sure if they still do). When they do/did that, the only entrance was to walk downstairs to the L mezzanine and then back upstaris (a lot of flights - one less than if you were transfering from the L) to the M level at Wyckoff.
Chris
I used to have a lunch on the M. The only current entrance to the M is via the street level mezzanine (part-time) or from the L mezzanine.
This station will get ADA elevators in the current capital program 5 year plan. The NYCT is using eminent doma.in to aquire property to expand the station bulding
The only current entrance to the M is via the street level mezzanine (part-time) or from the L mezzanine.
That's what I thought. The "easy" exit is the part time one, while the full time exit is the one where you half to walk down to the L mezzanine before walking back up again to the M train.
where you half to walk down
What am I dumb? I mean HAVE to walk.....Too much on my mind.......
I didn't even know there was a street-level mezzanine. I'll have to check it out some day.
How about Lorimer on the L? The only full-time entrance is to the IND mezzanine, but there's an underpass to the NB platform.
West 96 on the 1/2/3/9. Down to fare control, down to the paid mezzanine, up to the platforms.
LIRR East New York. You can enter the surface platforms directly, but I believe there's a ticket office underground.
LIRR East New York. You can enter the surface platforms directly, but I believe there's a ticket office underground.
And if the ticket office is open, you HAVE to buy a ticket there, just like any other station. I didn't even know that they used that ticket office anymore, until once on the train, the conductor said I had to pay the extra fare because I didn't buy my ticket at the ENY office. I was surprised, because I used the station quite a bit before that, and used the crossunder, but I guess it depends on the time of day you use the station. It's open in the mornings for sure.
Not 96th. The south mezzanine, which is fully staffed at all times, is between platform level and street level. In form if not in function, the main mezzanine is at the south end.
Not 96th. The south mezzanine, which is fully staffed at all times, is between platform level and street level. In form if not in function, the main mezzanine is at the south end.
I stand partially corrected. Yes, you can slide right down via the south mezzanine. However, the south mezzanine is at 93 Street. The north entrance, which requires down-down-up to reach the platforms, is at 96 Street. In name, if not in form nor function :-) , the 96 St entrance is the "main" entrance; the 93 St entrance is secondary.
I know. But my initial question was about underground platforms that can't be reached without climbing up, at least at some times. Both 96th Street platforms can always be reached by only climbing down. (Besides, I frequently use the south entrance and I almost never use the north entrance. I wonder which end is more popular -- I'd guess the north, but not by much.)
SubTalk has been abuzz with the awarding of the R-160 contract. So that brings up this question:
What number series will the R-160 occupy ? I am assuming the numbers being vacated by the Redbirds. Any thoughts ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree. It makes sense to reuse numbers rather than create new ones. I'm sure that saves millions of dollars some how, I'm just not sure exactly how...
Wouldn't the R142's take over the redbird numbers, while the R160's take over the numbers of the B-division cars they are replacing?
no, the R142/as have taken over the R16-R26(6300-7700)the 160s will probably(IMO) start at 8350
I don't know about the R160's, but did the R143's take over the R16 numbers? I think they also were in the "6's"
The R-143s are 8101-8312. Those were R-27 and R-30 numbers.
David
Assuming they eventually have gotten rid of all the R26,R28,R29,R33,R36 cars by the time the first R160s arrive, the order would totally or almost fit in 8313-9999 depending on the options. Here's where the rest of the free numbers are unless I miscounted.
1000-1299 free (300)
2450-2499 free (50)
2925-3000 free (76)
3001-3009 R110B (reusable)
3010-3347 free (338)
4950-5000 free (51)
6259-6300 free (42)
7851-8000 free (150)
8001-8010 R110A (reusable)
8313-9999 free (1687)
I don't know whether the number between 1-999 will be used. The numbers between 100 and 999 used to be occupied by R44s and R46s.
Chaohwa
It depends on how much each manufacturer will be getting. I think if possible, they might want to break up the numbers in different groups bewteen different manufacturers so it may be easier to tell the difference like the R68 and R68A. But if they don't, I think they'll use the numbers after the R143. But not 8313-9999. Maybe the numbers from 8321-9990 just so its easier to count.
There's only one manufacturer: Alstom. Kawasaki is involved only to ensure compatibility with the R-143.
No they will both assemble cars.
http://www.mta.info/mta/communications/releases02/020731.htm
"Alstom will assemble the new R160 cars at its manufacturing plant in Hornell, New York. Kawasaki will assemble the R160 cars at its plant in Yonkers, New York."
That's interesting. The staff summary that went to the Board indicated that Alstom would be building the cars with design and technical assistance from Kawasaki.
David
Also 8011-8100, as the 143's start with 8101.
I went to the 97 St portal of MNRR's Park Av tunnel today and eventhough the fence and lack of sunlight was making me very angry, it turns out that a few of my photos turned out half-decent. Here are three of them for your viewing pleasure:
Cool, you managed to capture some ACMU-1100's. They are rarer than Unicorns. I really need to ride one, but I don't know where or when they run.
Thanks. They run up the Hudson line. I see them whenever I go up to the Broadway Bridge to take photos (and video now). Here is an example from July 11, 2002 at 6:13pm. (I want to ride these also as I have never ridden them.)
They also run on the Harlem line south of North White Plains. They generally run rush hours only, but sometimes one manages to escape NWP and go in service during a midday.
Yeah I've seen them also, when I was waiting for a train at White Plains I saw one go by empty. I thought it was a diesel, since I thought all cars were "M" series, but was shocked to see no engine.
These are the only electric cars that aren't M series in the MTA commuter RR system. I want to ride one also, how many does MNRR have and what times do they run?
You know something truly demented? I went to school 2 blocks away from there for 6 years, and I didn't go up to the fence to watch the trains going by even once.
That is totally messed up.
You know something truly demented? I went to school 2 blocks away from there for 6 years, and I didn't go up to the fence to watch the trains going by even once.
Hey, you just hadn't gotten bitten by a mosquito infected with railfanitis yet :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the 60's I was working near City Hall & going to college at Brooklyn Poly Tech.
Took a different way home to Queens one night, it was a dirty & dark old train ... a "Q" !
That's a great place to stand, especially in rush hours. You can see an inbound train from the time it makes the curve off the bridge onto Park Avenue. Some of them blow their horns going into the tunnel. It's even better hearing the rumble of an outbound train for about one second (two seconds it it's a Bombardier) before it bursts out of the tunnel.
That's a great place to stand, especially in rush hours. You can see an inbound train from the time it makes the curve off the bridge onto Park Avenue. Some of them blow their horns going into the tunnel. It's even better hearing the rumble of an outbound train for about one second (two seconds if it's a Bombardier) before it bursts out of the tunnel.
Just curious as to what Line(s)these "R 143 look a likes" will go to? Any ideas?
They will replace all the Letter Lines that have Trains that need replacing, I believe the R-38-R46 will be retired, and possibly a option order, the R-32 might go. The R-160 will most likely be appearing on the A Line first, or the C Line, the C has nothing but old Cars, they only operate R-32's & few R-38's.
I think the R40's and R42's will probably go before the R46's. The R40 slants are not in that great of shape. And the last time I looked up on the el at the roof of the R40M's and R42's, they seemed to be rusting away. The R40 slants will be missed.
Yes, the slants will be sorely missed. When the time comes I will personally organize many "Farewell to the Slants" trips. I hope that it is a long time away though.
The slants are my favorite .
I really enjoy riding the Q express.
On many of the slants the advertsing frame on the TO cab is missing revealing a little whole to view the speedometer and T\O view
Really? I'm not quite sure what you mean, because the normal redbird trick of looking through the crack in the door hinge doesn't work on the slants.
I shall join you, if not try and organize maybe one of my own.
wayne
Figure 2007/8. The 38's will go first. Not that long off, dude.
NOOO FOR THE LAST TIME, the r44/r46 will not be going away, the only retired fleets will be the r32GE, r38, r40slant, r40m, and the r42, i will miss em all
That's what I said, all the 60 foot cars would go before the 75 foot cars. I didn't say anything about the R44-46 going anytime soon.
"NOOO FOR THE LAST TIME, the r44/r46 will not be going away, the only retired fleets will be the r32GE, r38, r40slant, r40m, and the r42, i will miss em all"
Well said, lets hope we can minimize the postings about what cars will and will not be retired now. -Nick
>>"NOOO FOR THE LAST TIME, the r44/r46 will not be going away, the only retired fleets will be the r32GE, r38, r40slant, r40m, and the r42, i will miss em all"<<
The R-32GE may not be retired along with the R-38, 40S, 40M and 42. The TA wanted to retire them because the parts were unavailable to repair the A/C units. But now the A/C on those cars have been replaced and are supposedly back in service. So their retirement may be delayed.
Bill "Newkirk"
The July 2002 staff summary said the GE R-32s would be among the first cars to go. Like Bill Newkirk, I thought the cars would get a reprieve with the replacement of the air conditioners, but apparently that is not the case.
David
The cars are probably still on the first-to-scrap list because the other interior components of the R-32GEs besides the AC are closer to R-38s than their original 'Budd brothers.' The MTA's reasoning seems to be there's no point in keeping an extra set of spare parts around for only 10 cars once the R-38s are sent to the scrapper or the briny deep.
The cars are probably still on the first-to-scrap list because the other interior components of the R-32GEs besides the AC are closer to R-38s than their original 'Budd brothers.' The MTA's reasoning seems to be there's no point in keeping an extra set of spare parts around for only 10 cars once the R-38s are sent to the scrapper or the briny deep.
(Interesting -- the Password Manager on Netscape 7.0 also apparently decided to remember the thread title from my previous post and use that again the first time I tried to post this reply. Another fine AOL innovation, I guess...)
200 of 200 R38
300 of 400 R40
100 of 400 R42
They can always move cars from place to place. Case in point: The 7 had an all Redbird fleet, the R142s and R142As replaced the Redbirds, the 7 will not have a single R142 or R142A when all the Redbirds are retired. Just because the C has the oldest cars in the system doesn't mean it will get the newest, it will just get cars newer than those retired.
It wouldn't surprise me if the remaining old cars end up on the G, the MTA could care less about this line. Though I'd prefer the R-32s in express service. -Nick
It wouldn't surprise me if the remaining old cars end up on the G, the MTA could care less about this line.
It may be that the MTA does not care about that line, though they would contest that accusation. Still the (G) will have R-44s or better, and never less. Afterall, they want it to be an OPTO line, and so that is what is required there.
Elias
Thanks for the info, Elias...I guess the R-46 or higher equipment are here to stay for the G! -Nick
Which line will be the next line to have CBTC installed
One other question. Is the signalling system on the concourse line in such bad shape that it can not wait untill the TA can figure out if CBTC will work in NYC.
Rumor has it the 7.
More than rumor -- CBTC on the Flushing Line has been planned for a while now.
David
"More than rumor -- CBTC on the Flushing Line has been planned for a while now."
HMM..this is interesting! Is this CBTC planned for the 2020s after the R62A is retired, or will the silverbirds be moved to another line, making room for brand new cars on the #7? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the R62A can work with CBTC. -Nick
Good question. Last I checked, the matter hadn't been settled yet. Corona Shop is to be replaced on-site in the near future with a new facility that will be able to handle R-142/142A-type equipment, however.
David
but I don't think the R62A can work with CBTC. -Nick
An why not. I'd bet you a bag of donuts that it can be retrofitted into that equipment without too much difficulty. Maybe a GOH but probably not even that. I'm sure that CI Peter could do it!
Elias
It has been stated before that the R-62/62A/68/68A and even, IIRC,
R-44s and 46s can all be retrofitted with CBTC equipment, without too much trouble. There is even a set of R-68s with it already installed, assigned to CI, I believe.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok, Thanks Andee..I'm sure this was stated before, but I must have missed that thread. -Nick
Only the first 8 or 16 R68s had room and hooks and bing bongs to install that equipment.
Only the first 8 or 16 R68s had room and hooks and bing bongs to install that equipment.
Certainly not in the cab though. :)
Those cars would have to be retrofitted with the new technology and computers as their young brothers. A little expensive though.
True, but since this is possible (as I learned a few days ago), its still cheaper than getting more new cars. Also, the MTA will save money by only having a conductor on the train, and no T/O. -Nick
That rumor is said to be true. As we type these messages to each other the transit authority and a private contractor are constructing numoreus relay rooms along the line and are replacing all signals. Hopfully this new technology will work.
"I believe the R-38-R46 will be retired, and possibly a
option order, the R-32 might go"
You are right that the R-32 would go in an option order (not looking forward to that!), but at this time (to subtalkers surprise), the R44 and R46 will not be replaced. -Nick
Every SubTalker knows that the R-44/46 will be retired when the R-160 comes in.
"Every SubTalker knows that the R-44/46 will be retired when the R-160 comes in."
According to a post on Wednesday, this is not true. The R-32 through R-42s will be replaced, even with both option orders. -Nick
That post is wrong, the R-44/46 will be retired, the plan is to replace most of the Trains on the lettered lines, R-38, R-44, and if a option order(1,700 Cars) they will replace R-32 & R-46 also.
The R40's will also go pretty near the begining, probably before the R44.
But I read in an earlier post that they would be keeping the R-32's around for awhile yet since the entire car is constructed of stainless steel. To be honest, I don't see a need to replace the R-40 slants at this point either. They too have been overhauled and from what I've seen of them do not appear to be in bad shape at all....
You are right about the R32's. They may outlive all the later cars except maybe the R46. As for the slants, I love the slants, and will hate to see them go. But I have read from people on this board that they are not in that great of shape. I don't know, I'm just going by what I heard here.
i still think the slants are in better shape than the R42
That may be true. The last time I saw the R42's they looked pretty rusty.
Look at the slant R40's where the fiberglass noses join the car bodies. They're in worse shape than most R42's.
the roofs on the 42s are rivals to the 38s!!!
Yeah the R42's are pretty rusty on the roofs. In the last year of so they are really starting to show their age.
"But I read in an earlier post that they would be keeping the R-32's around for awhile yet since the entire car is constructed of
stainless steel"
They won't be replaced in the initial 660 car order, but they may be replaced if the first or second option order is implemented. I think they will still be on the road until the tail end of the decade; they won't fade away in 2006-07. -Nick
R44 you mean... the R46 will be staying for much longer
Not when the Option Order comes in, the 1,700 new Cars will cover mostly all the old cars, including the R-46.
no...
it will replace
Primary order-
200 of 200 R38
300 of 400 R40
100 of 400 R42
Option order-
100 of 400 R40
300 of 400 R42
And 2 of the following 3
1-300 of 300 R32(ph 1)
2-300 of 300 R32(ph 2)
3-340 of 340 R44(in 60 ft equivilants)
if 1 and 2 are retired, the option order will have 1000 cars
if 1 and 3 or 2 and 3 are retired, the option order will have 1040 cars.
no... the 1700 will not do anything to the R46... there are 1940 cars(60 foot equivilant)to go before the R46s are retired
1here are 1100 R46 in 60 foot equivilants
Hey TrainDude, Do you have any information regarding the R-160 order? And What this Train will be replacing? Thanks!
I'm not "Train Dude," but I do work for NYC Transit and saw the Staff Summary that was presented to the MTA Board.
If this were a movie, the credits at the end would read, "No R-44s or R-46s were harmed in the making of the R-160s." In other words, the replacement plan does NOT include the R-44s or R-46s. The R-32, R-38, R-40, and R-42 series are to be replaced, assuming the full 1,660/1,700 cars are purchased. This is not a matter of opinion, or wishful thinking, or anything else. These are the words of NYC Transit senior staff, on paper, given to the MTA Board, which approved them.
David
From ALSTOM's own website...this is where I first learned of this...
Damn...the URL didn't post like I wanted it to...
Here it is without the HTML tags:
http://www.transport.alstom.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&inifile=futuretense.ini;futuretense_xcel.ini&c=at_article&cid=1027873683549
I read it when it first came out. Funny thing is, the Reuters (not Lawrence G. Reuter -- the press agency) article and the MTA's press release both indicate that Kawasaki will actually be CONSTRUCTING some of the cars. This doesn't jibe with Alstom's press release or with the Staff Summary that was submitted to the MTA Board. I'm trying to find out (by asking around the office) what is the actual case.
David
Ever SubTalker knows not to believe a word you type. I hope. Where did you find this? Replacing the R44 and R46 in addition to the 60 footers is not possible even with all options. 1700 v. 2598.
"Every SubTalker knows not to believe a word you type. I hope."
amen r68a. i hear that.
Amen over here too...
--Brian
Check the Alstom web site for the press release which is dated 31 Jul 2002.
Here is the long URL.
http://www.transport.alstom.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/View&inifile=futuretense.ini;futuretense_xcel.ini&c=at_article&cid=1027873683549
It looks like that R160s are very similar to R143s.
Chaohwa
It looks like that R160s are very similar to R143s.
And I'm sorry to hear that. I like the R143 well enough, but not where I want the next order to be just like it.
This is strictly a subfan perspective of course, but it's hard to get excited about the R160. It will mean less variation in rolling stock, not more. It seems to harken back to the days when every car was the same, when everthing up to the R30 (or even up to R38, BMT/IND) and R36 (IRT) was a variation on the R16 and R17, respectively, even going as far back as the R10. Functinal maybe, but boooooooooooo-RING!
:-) Andrew
It looks like that R160s are very similar to R143s.
And I'm sorry to hear that. I like the R143 well enough, but not where I want the next order to be just like it.
This is strictly a subfan perspective of course, but it's hard to get excited about the R160. It will mean less variation in rolling stock, not more. It seems to harken back to the days when every car was the same, when everthing up to the R30 (or even up to R38, BMT/IND) and R36 (IRT) was a variation on the R16 and R17, respectively, even going as far back as the R10. Functional maybe, but boooooooooooo-RING!
:-) Andrew
These are only hypothesis. I am not sure which line these will go to
A, C, E, J, L, M, N, Q, Z. I also heard the F.
JMZ are first i think
Yes, and the M will have a lot of the R143's also. I think it's next after the L, and probably will start getting some even before the L is all R143.
yup, do you think we will see any R143s on the J ever?
I know that they wont be assigned there, but R32s arent assigned to the R either, and they still show up.
I'm sure they eventually will show up on the J, at least occasionally. The lines I believe switch cars now sometimes, so I'm sure it won't be different then.
The crews on the J are not qualified to operate the R143.
well let's get them qualified asap! :) While they're at it, I'd like to be qualified also.
I saw an article in NY1 news that said the R 143's were experimental in talking about the order for the R 160's. I thought the R 110A' and B's were the prototype cars for future orders? Any thought why the TA made that statement?
The News was wrong, the R-110A/B was a experimental prototype for the Future Cars.
I saw an article in NY1 news that said the R 143's were experimental in talking about the order for the R 160's. I thought the R 110A' and B's were the prototype cars for future orders?
There are lots of experiments to be done.
The R110s were experiments for the 142s and 143s.
Now they are experimenting with a *line*, a line running 143s, and actually going to run a computer controled line.
The (L) line was the perfect candidate for this work, since it is a captive line and doesnt interface with any other equipment.
If they can make it work here, all bugs out and all, then they will (it appears) do the same on the (7) which is also a captive line, but much too busy to do experiments on.
Maybe later they will turn their attention to the (J) and (M) or maybe somehing on Broadway.
HMMMMmmmmm...... I wonder.......
HMMMMmmmmm...... I wonder.......
What If.... Routes were reareanged to allow computer control on the Broadway (BMT Please!) Express Line?
The Broadway Express would be exclusively R-160s running in a computerized mode. They could not leave computerized Tracks, and no other trains could run in Pax service on these lines. How might the routes look!!???
The (Q) could not run express on Broadway since it shares the Brighton with the (D) so it becomes the second local via Montegue, Though it could still run express on the Brighton... Lets think some more about that. It will have to terminate in Astoria since it needs to share the 60th Street Tunnel with the (R).
The queens tunnels have to many different route on them to be computerized this early in the game, and The South Side of the Manny B is the only computerized crossing (other than the (L) and the (7) ov course). sooooo.....
The (N) and the (W) Become the Broadway Express 57th Street to Coney Island (Sea Beach and West End) via Bridge.
This makes Fourth Avenue Express Tracks (and all of the West End and Sea Beach Lines) computerized, while the Local (R), (M) local to 95th Street are non-computerized.
The 6th Avenue (D) runs Brighton but the (B) is what?
The (F) and the (V) head on out to Culver via rutgers...
Anybody want to play with this idea?
elias
CBTc is needed in one place above others: Lexington Ave. Anything that increases capacity and eases delays here should take top priority.
CBTc is needed in one place above others: Lexington Ave. Anything that increases capacity and eases delays here should take top priority
Yup.... I agree with you 100%....
But...
Do you really want them to set it up *there* before it has all of the bugs worked out of it on a less critical service.
So CBTC is a given on the (L), get it up, running, and largely bug free.
Maybe extend it to the (J) and the (M) (They would have to terminate at Broad Street) see that it can run multiple lines and schedules.
Then try it on the (7) validate it for both high capacity and multiple routings (exp / lcl).
Then where to install it next.
And my suggestion was the Broadway Express. because it is a fairly simple upgrade with few variables.
The (6) ia another good choice, for though it runs on Lexington with the (4) and (5), the (6) does not actually share any track with them.
Likewise the (1) could be made into CBTC since it too really does run on its own dedicated trackage.
You could not IMHO do (4) (5) without also doing (3) (4) at the same time since they share trackage both in the Bronx and in Brooklyn.
But I'll Grant you, getting the (1) and (6) moving at beter intervals will surely help all of the IRT.
Elias
I agree, once the bugs have been worked out, the Lexington Ave line should get top priority.
The next line after the 7 is supposed to be the F, at least the Brooklyn section. This will be in conjunction with the new Bergen Master tower (I hope they're not waiting for this to fix the interlocking to allow express service). The new trains have a button "Begin ATO", so I imagine you can operate normal for part of a line and then go into ATO for only a scection.
I've also been told that next year, V2 testing will begin on the L line south of Atlantic. The current V1 test uses the J line exp. track between Myrtle and Eastern Pkway, which has the new transponders (which scan something on the train as it passes over) set up for speed measurement, with regular T/O operation, and the next phase these will be installed on that section of the L, and midnight non-passenger testing will begin with ATO.
The new wayside signals are being set up on the Canarsie line now )needed for when regular trains use the line to access the yard or wash), and the older signals have removal dates written on the boxes. (The new yard tower is really taking shape).
Also, noticed that the P chain is being eliminated, and Q is being extended all the way down to Canarsie; the new survey markers are stenciled on the new signal boxes and the last signal before the block on 1 track having survey # 540. (this of course is also in conjunction with the relocation of the zero point to 8th Av.)
I think a set of R143s was used for certain tests for the R160 doors
"I think a set of R143s was used for certain tests for the R160 doors"
I'm not sure what you mean by this, because the R-160 has not been built yet. Are you referring to the design of the R-160? -Nick
Certain components that are candidates for installation on R-160 cars are being tested on R-143 cars. "Train Dude" elaborated on this about a week ago.
David
Ya TrainDude usually has the scoop on what happens in the Subway System.
well when they come in,the R40's and 42's will be going,going gone.
The A will be the first line to recieve the first order of R160's. other possibilites include the N,Q,C and who knows what else,but the A will be first,no doubt about it.the R32's WILL NOT be retired anytime soon,not sure bout the 38's.the 46's wont go,the 44's? not sure bout those either.
Okay and where did you get that information from??? The R-160 is expected to be here in the year 2006, you don't know if they will put the R-160 on the A Line first.
actually I DO know that for a fact and how i found out...is a secret ^.^
It was posted in a newspaper article several months ago. However, we have nearly three years until the pilot train arrives and nearly four years until the cars start coming in for real. That's plenty of time for NYCT to change its collective mind.
David
From what I heard the A, C, E, F and possibly the N are likely candidates.
JMZ are the almost definite candidates
I woke up at 3:45 in the morning Tuesday so I could be home in time to go to Philly with the fam, who wanted to leave at 6:30, of course when I get to Lancaster, they are all still knocked out sleeping, so we don't leave until 8:30 or so, but it's cool. My mission that day of course, was to visit family and friends, but mainly to pay a visit to 1234 and put in an application to work at SEPTA. The adventure begins at 40th and Spruce where my aunt had a dentist appointment at Penn's dental school, while she's being treated, I'm walking up 40th Street up to Market finding a place that sold the SEPTA Day Pass, but then after all the walking up to Market and back, I finally realize that the closest place to get one is 30th Street Station ticket booth. So I walk back up to Market, and catch the MFL there and catch 1109, the lead car, hoping to snag a railfan seat for the short ride, but no. I get to 30th Street, visit the post office to cash a money order, and come out to see my favorite New Flyer (only because it's the only one I've rode on), 5437 on the 44 trying to turn onto Market street, but somehow the operator couldn't make the turn initially so he backs up and then he's able to make the turn after blowing the horn to get a car to move a little. I go back to the MFL, again hoping to snag the railfan seat to no avail, I must say, as much as I miss my almond joys, I thanked God for the M4's excellent air conditioner. This consist was interesting, -I was on 1212, and I forget all the cars that were in the consist, but at least four of them contained the numbers 1, and 2, (I know for sure 1111-1112, and 1211-1212). I get to 13th street, walked to the exit, and didn't even realize I was at 1234 until I saw PCC 2733 lookin all good. I go to the sixth floor, where I had been told by others to pick the application, but the sent me to the security desk. I go back down there only for the guy to tell me, "We're out til Monday" oh damn!! A whole day wasted-not I visited the Transit Museum Store, spent most of my time there looking at the Road To Upper Darby book, (get it if you're an almond joy fan-the most tech data I've seen on them since the old SEPTA fact sheets or Delaware Valley Rails) I'm a little disappointed about the application, but what the hell I have a day pass, you know what that means...I walk up the street trying to make up my mind where to start, carefully observing everything over 30 feet in length. I saw a couple of NJT Metro-B's, Metro-D 3711, 79XX, and 8080, and a few more of the new D4000's, D40LF 5600 on the 17 heading to Penns Landing, 5436 with it's Spree wrap and special on the destination sign with a paper Spree sign in the windshield. I finally decide I'm gonna get me a 460, and I just miss one, but I wait not even 5 minutes before 7121 pulls up on the 33 going to Penn's Landing, figuring if I'm lucky I could catch 5600 there. Keeping in mind that even when I lived in Philly, I always took MFL to Penns Landing, so I was a little thrown off on where to get off, I got off on the viaduct and walked over on Front Street. In the distance I see a D40LF and a Transliner AN440 laying over, I get closer, I see numbers and the D40LF is none other than 5600! I'm gonna get this sucka-not, pulls off when I'm about 10 steps away, I should have ran for it. The Neoplan that was there was 3111, which was on the 5, I figure what the hell and took that. Saw some of the construction for the 15 trolley restoration, Eldorado 4561 with a paper sign for the 89. For an old soldier, 3111's AC was pretty good although there was some condenser leakage on the seat across from me. Took the 5 all the way to Frankford Terminal and the bus doesn't even get a half load the entire trip (around 1:00-1:30).
I go up to the MFL platform, checking out some of the construction, but there's a train about to leave so I hop on it, hoping to get my railfan seat, the dude that was there got off at Church I think, the dude he was with then took that seat and I'm thinking he's not going to be on much longer we can wait this out, but I changed my mind, and got off at Erie-Torresdale, crossed over to catch the train going back to FT. the train stops as I come off the crossover and I get on 1025, last in this consist. We're back at FT and I'm on the platform waiting for the next westbound train, and observing some of the construction, including the new El alignment (complete with concrete bents, gonna look really nice when it's finally done) when I hear the announcement behind me, "69th Street Train making all stops", and the destination sign confirms it, so back on 1025 I go-straight to the empty railfan seat, yes!!! Of course this was going to be a ride that I haven't taken since I was 10 standing at the Almond Joy's end door with the wind hitting me in the face-an end to end ride, and like the others in the fleet, 1025 was ice cold. Once at 69th, I try to make up my mind, I could take the 108 and meet up with the fam back in Southwest, or I could take the 65 and get on a 460, but I settle on NABI 5035, on the 21, which must have been in an accident, the front pillar had a bolt holding it on and the sign cavitiy area on the passenger side looked pretty banged up as well. 5035 is nice and cold, and it fills up pretty quickly, but I still manage to get a seat. Nothing special about this ride, but once I'm back in Center City, I decide to get off at 13th to walk back to 1234 and see if the guy before was BS'ing me, I ask the lady for an application, but word for word, "we're out til Monday" dammit!! oh well, it was worth a shot.
So back to 13th Street station, I go to the Subway-Surface lines, and wait for the 36, I never realized how much usage the tunnel gets, one right after the other, 11, 10, 34, 13, then my 36...9059, one of the first LRV's with the solid windows, and coincidentally the trolley I rode on my last trip to Philly back in May. I saw at least 2 other LRV's with the solid windows, 9022 on the 11, and 905X on the 13. Got off to catch the 36 shuttle bus at 49th & Woodland, the first one I didn't even bother to try to get on, a bunch of people from the trolley before us and everyone on our trolley tried to crowd on, I just waited, and 3178 pulls up, I ride to 57th and walk over. The one thing SEPTA didn't do right on my travels that day, was give clear info on the route of the 36 shuttle, I'm sure I read it somewhere before online, but at that point I had completely forgotten whatever it was. I hung out with the fam for a while, then it was time to leave to go back to Lancaster. 9101 on the 11 takes me to 30th street, where I take a pretty boring ride on Amtrak's keystone train in the usual G-ride (Genesis P42)and 3 amfleet consist that has become standard on that line. A fun day all in all, I didn't stop to eat until I got back to my Aunt's house. I'll be back Monday to visit 1234 bright and early to fill out that application, then I have a date with the B-IV's, and maybe I'll take another stab at getting 5600, and I'll probably visit NJT and PATCO as well. Thanks for reading and I hope this wasn't too long!
Darnell
Cool story, thanks for sharing :)
Hey cool, I must say I've never quite Busfanned Philly quite that much, but last week I became fixed that I would catch a 31 bus from my Drexel Orientation to center city, and then a NJT 406 bus to just a few blocks from my house. Oddly, for all the time and distance I have covered on rail (Just made it to Conn and the end Of the LIRR Port Jeff Branch 2 days ago), this was my first bus ride by myself.
I walk out of my orienation/brainwashing early at 12:45, walk north a block to Market and 33rd, realize I have no tokens or even singles, so I go down to the 34th and market MFL station, missing the first 31 bus I see (a New Flyer Low-Floor) to grab some. Strangely, I become disoriented in the station and head out the north side of the station, passing under Market, I come up just east of 34th on market, and begin walking east along the north side of market, only to see a 31 bus heading east, but it's on the other side of a market with traffic flowing rather fast, so I say "screw it, I'm not gonna die today, I'll wait for the next, it wont be too long," and head over to stand under the shelter of the Drexel Library at 33 and market (Since it is now raining). From my shelter with several other people, I can hear MFLs and LRVs squeeling below me, atleast 6 K-cars and 3 MFL trains pass. Finally, I've had enough, and I head over to the 33rd st stop for the LRVs, but hear a bus, turn, AND THERE IT IS! A New Flyer Low Floor 31 waiting for me. I get on, and endure possibly the slowest mode of trasportation ever, I coulda beat the damn thing walking! By now it's like 1:30 or so, and my patience is worn, so I get off at 16th and Market when I see that the City Hall area is nothing but traffic. Walk through City Hall, right past Mayor Street giving a speach about Liberia, and over to the other side of city hall. Like you I head over to 1234 market, both to see the PCC in the basement, and to see if they have any NJT bus schedules. I get in and head for the PCC, which to me looks oddly like a Raymond Loweyized K-car, I might say that the K-cars are chips off the old block, but that'd get me in trouble with the PCC police.
I also check out the transit museum and grab a book of railroad maps of the Pacific Northwest (You know those SPV things, kinda cheap, no where as detailed as those for the Subway), and finally decide to wrap up my business there. I walk up to the impressive selection of SEPTA schedules, but no NJT there, so I go up to the two possible security people manning the counter. I ask, "Do you know where I can get NJT bus schedules?" A perfectly obvious, and, to somebody who works for a Transit company, straightforward question. However, the lady to whom I addressed my question merely blinked and sputtered, "NJT, whats that? New Jersey..." and she trailed off muttering. Now I just about lost it, I can't belive that somebody who works for septa cannot know what NJT stands for! So i fairly yelled at her, "YEAH, New Jersey Transit, like those busses out there across the street," and pointed to some MCIs and Flexibles that were waiting for passengers. Fortunately her partner thought it was funny, but was of little more help, he just laughed and directed me to Market East Station. After a quick stop in Reading Terminal for lunch, I head to Market east, get a schedule for the 406 from a harried counter person, and head for 10th and market, and grab the slow boat to china home. The 406 crawls out of camden, I will never ever catch a 406 home unless it reads "limited" and skips camden. Both busses were incredibly nice and so on, but were so slow that i proably coulda started walking from Drexel at 12:45 and gotten home at about the same time, which was about 3:00pm.
I will never ride a bus though center city if the Sub-Surface or MFL is an option.
Did anybody watch Channel 11's 10:00 News Last Night? I didn't get a chance to watch it, Can somebody Tell what they were talking about? Thanks!
Did anybody watch Channel 11's 10:00 News Last Night? I didn't get a chance to watch it, Can somebody Tell what they were talking about with the new R-143/160 Cars? Thanks!
Actually, I saw the story on the channel 5 news, where they talked about it being the largest order for subway cars in history, and mentioned that the French firm which won the bid (whose name somehow escapes me right now, and is sure to pop back into my brain the moment I post this message) will be working with Kawasaki to see that the R-160 will be compatible with the R-143.
They also talked about some of the features of the R-143, like the strip maps, the fold-up seats in the corners, the internal LED info signs, and the intercom system, and interviewed a few riders who praised the R-143 for being a huge improvement over the older cars.
All in all it was a very positive presentation, and rightly so.
and mentioned that the French firm which won the bid (whose name somehow escapes me right now
ALSTOM.
Mark
Uhhhhh....yup! :-)
More on the Boston heart attack incident, from The Boston Globe
But Susan Bergeron, an assistant conductor on the train credited by passengers with performing CPR on Allen most of the way into Boston, said yesterday that CSX dispatchers denied a request to make a direct run to Back Bay.
MBTA crews do not need permission of CSX dispatchers to bypass station stops, especially in cab signal territory. It is common courtsey to tell the dispatcher if you are going to go off schedule (well, in fact it is required), but if you are simply going to bypass a station stop, there's no need to get permission, especially if that will only get you there 1-2 minutes early.
It is possible that had the train not stopped at the stations, they would have been held at a signal. But only in this case do the dispatchers need to become involved.
AEM7
Do we know if the train would have run into a Red signal in front of Back Bay station? Was there another train in the way and was "wrong-railing" a train to help not a practical option?
Each of the above steps would have taken a bit of time, of course. I am NOT taking a position or stating an opinion on them.
The train crew's conduct raises a host of potential liability issues, including civil litigation against the two rail agencies as well as CSX, legal experts said.
I look forward to the day when I have to sign a liability wavier when I buy my T-pass.
AEM7
I found it ironic that the within-article advertisement which popped-up when I read this online was for RailEurope!
Dose anyone know what will happen whe a Work Train need to run on the L line after the CTBC system is in. 1) I mean there will be no signals for the crew to read excpt at switches, and will CTBC she the work train on the tracks and keep the road off it's back.
2) Will the TA buy special work train to only run with CTBC.
Just wanted to see if anyone can come up with some short of idears.
Robert
Maybe the work trains will have cab signals?
While the system can't control the work train or know where it is from the train, the track circuts could still be used for cab signal?
Just a guess, knowing the TA they would issue a GO and make all trains move at 10mph whenver a work train enters the L line.
They can shut off the CBTC when there is one and the signals with operate like we all know them to.
But there wont be any signal exsecect for switches.
Robert
Yes there will be. You will see the same signals required to run a "traditional" train. There will be 2 states. The operating state we see now and the CBTC state where the top green light will flash to indicate CBTC is in use. When in use, the second monitor in the R143 will display the signal information.
Actually I think it's more likely they will retrofit cab signal equipment into whatever they're using for work motors at the time. If they can put cab signal equipment into steam engines (like C&O 614 has for operation in New Jersey Transit territory) they can put it into some older subway cars.
Yes. They are experimenting that with R68 2500-2503. But they'll probably need something bigger than a redbird cab.
> bigger than a redbird cab
It's a work train-- you got the whole car!
The specs I saw called for an Auxiliary Wayside System (AWS) consisting of a similar signal system to that currently in place throughout NYC's subway system, but not capable of supporting full rush hour service levels.
Work trains assigned to the "Eastern Division" are to be equipped with partial CBTC, controlling the brakes, according to the specs I saw.
David
There will always be signals at interlockings in case of cab signal failure. Manual block protection will be established for any rai vehicles w/o the appropiate cab signals.
As I understand it, CBTC is present in all the cars of a trainset to comm the system of all car status ('stuck brakes, hot car, door failure' and the like.) A work train unit would only need a simplified cab unit and transponder with perhaps a portable transponder on the end car...so the system will acknowledge the legnth and presense of the trainset. CI Peter
According to an article in today's Newsday, nationl section,a commuter passenger on the Framingham-Boston run had a heart attack. The crew continued on for three stops to Back Bay Station (a 20 minute trip)to a waiting medical crew.
Evidently MBTA contracts with Amtrak for the crews. One can only wish that the victim was a relative of the crew.
Get your facts straight, son.
Even the Boston Globe report isn't 100% accurate, but better than what you had.
AEM7
There clearly was a lapse of judgment somewhere. This was a true life-threatening emergency which demanded that the train proceed as quickly as possible to the nearest stop where paramedics could board and assume responsibility for care. This means patching into the 911 system immediately and holding the train at the nearest stop until the passenger could be transferred to the ambulance. There really was no leeway here; the passenger's medical condition was very critical and unstable.
The failure here appears to include a communication problem. The situation was handled incorrectly, but as to culpability, I would be interested in the results of the MBTA investigation.
I have personally been involved in first-aid situations on both trains and and airliner. Had this occurred on an airliner, the proper procedure would have been to ask air traffic control for emergency landing clearance at the nearest airport (dump fuel as needed to meet safe landing parameters), request paramedic assistance and then resume travewl after the stricken passenger is off-loaded.
In the air emergency I was involved in, the victim was stable and not in immediate danger, so the flight plan (to Tampa) was not altered; nonetheless air traffic control in Tampa ordered other aircraft clear of the runway and we were given immediate clearance for landing and taxi. The Tampa Fire Dept and a police officer met us at the gate.
I have personally been involved in first-aid situations on both trains and and airliner. Had this occurred on an airliner, the proper procedure would have been to ask air traffic control for emergency landing clearance at the nearest airport (dump fuel as needed to meet safe landing parameters), request paramedic assistance and then resume travewl after the stricken passenger is off-loaded.
There was an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal a couple of months ago concerning airline medical diversions. Many of the larger U.S. airlines use the services of a company in Arizona in deciding whether to make medical diversions. The company, whose name I don't recall, has physicians on duty 24/7 to handle radio calls from flight crews. The physicians discuss the situations with the crews and recommend whether or not to divert. So far, the system seems to have worked very well, reducing the number of unnecessary diversions (which are costly in terms of both time and money) while getting quick medical attention to the people who really need it.
I would imagine that medical diversions become a real issue on trans-Pacific flights. Airliners traveling from the United States to Asian airports have a number of diversionary airfields along the route, mainly to satisfy ETOPS requirements, but some of them are in remote spots in the Aleutians or Siberia that have sufficient runway length but few or no medical facilities.
Yes, I read that article. The system does work pretty well.
If there is a physician available on the flight, that physician will relay history and physical examination findings to the "on call" doctor on the ground, and can be very helpful in arriving at the most appropriate solution. I was put in touch with such a doctor during my flight.
Ultimately, by law, the ultimate decision to divert is not the doctor's however - it is the aircraft commander's (the pilot) decision to make.
You are right about trans-Pacific routes. There are no easy answers there. Since economical cruising speeds are below maximum speeds, one of the things a pilot can do is increase the aircraft's speed by up to 100 mph to get to an airport faster, but otherwise, the only other interventions available on board are oxygen and perhaps an automatic defibrillator.
<< Since economical cruising speeds are below maximum speeds, one of the things a pilot can do is increase the aircraft's speed by up to 100 mph to get to an airport faster >>
Usually not possible unless there is an airport suitable for landing within range at the higher speed. Why so? Because fuel burn rate goes up dramatically at speeds faster than long-range cruise. Fuel is weight and weight costs money (lower payload, for example) so aircraft typically are fueled for the flight along with the appropriate IFR alternative airport and loitering time fuel reserve requirements.
Correct. However in the United States, there are enough airports meeting that requirement that the increase in speed can often be accomplished and be helpful (the US has more airports with scheduled service than any other country).
Of course, I concede the amount of help that would be is limited - you can't enter a landing pattern at 600 mph.
How can you say they did NOT let the guy die? They are very much responsible because, and speaking as a conductor, your responsibility is the safety and care of the crew and people aboard your train. If someone gets seriously ill aboard your train, you get them assistance IMMEDIATELY!! You don't continue on in service. Once again the safety and well being of your customers is your primary responsibility. The conductor could have held the train at the station, called the dispatcher, and awaited medical help, especially given that the hospital was not far away. He acted in very poor judgement. I mean I know you want to keep on time and to schedule, but come on, humanity gives way to schedule, and the well being of your passengers comes first. I been in this position before one morning on the Q at Canal Street, and I didn't care one bit if I backed the railroad all the way up into Brooklyn, I acted by judgement in the best interest of the customer, and the train went NOWHERE until the EMS and police had arrived to assist the individual off the train. I even had a brief spat with the control center regarding this. They were only concerned with the train moving, not living up to TA's slogan of "We're serious about safety.....YOUR safety!!". I told them, in no uncertain terms, "No, Control, the customer CAN NOT BE SAFELY REMOVED FROM THE TRAIN!!! Awaiting EMS and Police assistance!!" Customer safety comes first. The conductor deserves whatever punishment he gets. This man is dead now because of the conductor's lack in judgement.
Thank you Mr. Paul for backing me up. Letting a train go for 20 minutes with a seriously ill passenger is a lapse in judgement. I am not an attorney so I don't know where the line between a lapse in judgement and depraved indifference to human life (a criminal charge).
The article said that it took the train 20 minutes to get to Back Bay station...Hopefully the engineer could stop the train at the spot where the medics set up otherwise precious seconds would be lost getting to the victim. After all, in the case of a heart attack, SECONDS COUNT !!!!!
It is hard to fathom that if the train had pulled into the first stop, the voluteers in that town would have taken twenty minutes to get to the deceased. Many years ago when my daughter needed the Rescue Squad for emergency transport to Huntington Hospital, it took less than ten minutes for the "vollies" to get to the firehouse, get the rig and get to us. We live about a mile from the firehouse. In most communities on Long Island the firehouses are in the "downtown" areas near the LIRR station. I presume that it wouldn't haven't taken a response time of 20 minutes to get to the train.
At a minimum, a public apology to the deceased family is in order.
The article said that it took the train 20 minutes to get to Back Bay station...
How long do you think it will take for an ambulance to get to Newtonville in rush-hour Boston traffic? Remember, the Mass Pike does not have an exit at Newtonville.
After all, in the case of a heart attack, SECONDS COUNT !!!!!
How do you know that he has had a heart attack, without reading the press report after the event?
AEM7
The amb. would have taken the patient to the nearest hospital to the station. which would have been Newton-Wellsley and stabilized and then if further care was needed then that person would have been taken to a Boston hospital. City of Boston EMT 718 Steve H
Yes. That would conform to appropriate procedure.
The protocols for CPR changed several years ago. Now IMMEDIATE ACCESS to the EMS system is the first priority in rendering care.
You can do CPR to the cows come home, but only the defibrilator and the drug box will make a difference.
A basic squad could have started with the automatic defibrilator while awaiting the ALS squad. More than likely an ALS Squad was only a few minutes away anyway.
And a hospital is NOT NEEDED! A hospital CANNOT HELP YOU!
Either the Paramedic saves you right there in the isle of the train,
or you call a priest.
Those are the statistics... If they can not recover you in the street, there is almost no chance that the hospital can do it.
Br. Elias, EMT RN
Brian,
You started out OK:
"The protocols for CPR changed several years ago. Now IMMEDIATE ACCESS to the EMS system is the first priority in rendering care.
You can do CPR to the cows come home, but only the defibrilator and the drug box will make a difference.
A basic squad could have started with the automatic defibrilator while awaiting the ALS squad. More than likely an ALS Squad was only a few minutes away anyway."
Absolutely correct.
"And a hospital is NOT NEEDED! A hospital CANNOT HELP YOU!
Either the Paramedic saves you right there in the isle of the train,
or you call a priest. "
Well, yes and no. Statistically, for "simple" cardiac arrest, that's basically true. But remember that an on-scene squad canot definitively diagnose all comers. Should certain procedures be needed, some are best performed in the hospital (some ONLY in the hospital), not in the back of the rig. This will not apply to the majority of victims, because the basics (ABC) can be done on scene.
But your basic point, that help must come quickly and without delay to the victim, is correct.
The last time I checked, an unwitnessed cardiac arrest had a less than 1% chance of survival; a witnessed cardiac arrest attended to with CPR and with quick (less than 4 minute response time) intervention by an ALS squad has no better than a 10% chance of survival.
Pretty dismal as a whole (unless you're on a TV drama series).
If anybody knows numbers to be different than mine, please post.
> The last time I checked, an unwitnessed cardiac arrest had a less
> than 1% chance of survival; a witnessed cardiac arrest attended to
> with CPR and with quick (less than 4 minute response time)
> intervention by an ALS squad has no better than a 10% chance of
> survival.
>
> Pretty dismal as a whole (unless you're on a TV drama series).
Actually, it depends on the cause of the cardiac arrest.
Traumatic Cardiac Arrest - except for a witnessed arrest with tension pneumothorax as the cause - has a save rate of far less than 1%.
Medical Cardiac Arrest has a better rate of save. Time causes a diminshment of success - about 10% per minute. The optimal American Heart Association model has immediate CPR (bystander CPR), defib within 2 minutes and ACLS within 6 minutes. That translates, in their model, to a 50% save rate from Vfib arrest. Now, I work in a suburban/rural area where I am the ACLS and it takes me up to 15 minutes to get to calls. Who do I save?
Back to Newton - I believe that they have contract ACLS ambulance with one of the commercial ambulance providers (or are they fire-based?).
How can I relate this back to subways and trains? Hmmm...defibrillation uses electricity - so do subways!
Chip
How can I relate this back to subways and trains? Hmmm...defibrillation uses electricity - so do subways!
Heheheh....
do you want to trust your jouls to the third rail?
ALL CLEAR!
Should certain procedures be needed, some are best performed in the hospital (some ONLY in the hospital), not in the back of the rig.
Absolutely! Hospitalization is needed ASAP....
but if EMS does not bring them in alive, there is little that can be done in a hospital.
Elias
I ain't no attorney either, (:-)) but I think this situation is a little of both. It is a lapse in judgement that showed depraved indifference to human life, and now a man is dead as a result. The conductor, who is in charge of the train and had opportunity to make a wise decision, didn't in any make one, and now this guy lost his life. If you can't handle that kind of responsibility, don't do the job!! The position belongs to someone who can show they're in charge, and make the right decisions in regards to the well being of human lives entrusted to their care, and handle the responsibility.
Even the Boston Globe report isn't 100% accurate
What do you know that isn't in the Globe?
What do you know that isn't in the Globe?
Local knowledge of the Framingham Line beyond what they outlined in the article, access situaiton in Newton, knowledge of some CSX operating rules, and general knowledge of what crew can and cannot do.
AEM7
That sounds like you're saying he couldn't have been properly taken off the train in Newton? But should the train have made station stops or gone straight to Boston?
Hey, even Kramer kept making all the stops even though a gun wielding maniac tried to take over the bus. Just like the Post Office, transit workers have a duty to make all the stops.
> That sounds like you're saying he couldn't have been properly taken off the train in Newton?
Having pulled patients from some of the strangest places, while I have not visited the stations in question, I am sure that the patient could have been removed from the train safely and efficiently at either Newton station.
Chip
Having pulled patients from some of the strangest places, while I have not visited the stations in question, I am sure that the patient could have been removed from the train safely and efficiently at either Newton station.
More to the point, you would have had no trouble getting a defibrilator and a drug box onto the train.
You can let the cops, firefighters and or train crew figure out how to get the backboard on.
Elias
More to the point, you would have had no trouble getting a defibrilator and a drug box onto the train.
Newtonville has real issues. It's not easily reached by automobile, EMS or else. Especially in rush hour traffic.
Some other people have posted here that EMS would probably take less than 20 mins to reach Newtonville, and that is probably correct given the location of the hospitals. However, this relies on the crew realizing that the guy has had an emergency medical condition which warrants holding the train.
As I stated earlier, the conductor is not required to have medical training and may not have realized the man is having a cardiac arrest. It would be stupid to hold a train just because someone has fainted. Even if he did, he would not have known that in those cases EMS response times are vital. For that matter, I did not know it was *that* critical (the 10% per minute statistic).
If this is a real problem, the T ought to educate its employees (or ensure that its contractors educate their employees) with information on common emergency medical conditions and how best to respond. Of course, this could backfire because the T then can be sued for "errornous" medical judgment.
In certain medical emergencies, the decision to push the train to Back Bay where major hospitals are close by may be the best decision. In the rush hour, the commuter train is the fastest way to get from Auburndale into downtown.
AEM7
Newtonville has real issues. It's not easily reached by automobile, EMS or else. Especially in rush hour traffic.
If people cannot get to the station, then I actually see little point in putting a station there!
Elias
Yes, Newtonville is a pointless station. That station should have been eliminated long ago. I do not know why Auburndale, West Newton and Newtonville are open. Either they should sort out the stations, make them nice, and make them accessible, or they should just close them. I am sure the stations are well-used by people who live in the immediate vicinity, but that's about all the traffic they get. They don't have the crowd-pulling powers of the other commuter rail stations. It's a waste stopping a train there.
After all, the Mass Pike is there for a reason.
AEM7
I've seen the time line on this.
The crew radioed for help at 8:53. It made the next stop, West Newton, at 8:56, Newtonville at 8:59 and made South Station, where the emergency team was waiting, at 9:10.
Assuming skipping the two station stops could have saved a minute each, that would have made the arrival at South Station 9:08. So, at best there would have been a 12-14 minute difference between trying for South Station or treatment at West Newton. Unfortunately, 12 minutes can easily make the difference between life and death.
Remember also that there was just 3 minutes from the time assistance was asked for to the time the train stopped at West Newton. So a tem might not have been able to get there in that short period and start treating the man as quickly as the team waiting at South Station.
So this bears some investigation. But I do think the station stops, though they ate "only" 2 minutes, were a good idea.
The Amtrak conductor has some 'splainin to do
The Amtrak conductor has some 'splainin to do
This is really a heartless statement. The MBTA doesn't dispatch the trains nor hire the crews. They pay for service. The crews work for Amtrak and operate on CSX tracks. CSX made the decision what to do becuase they dispatch the trains.
You can be sure there will be an investigation -- as well as lawsuits.
Somebody really screwed up badly. It's just not clear at the moment. Was the train dispatcher notified of the seriousness of the medical condition? Did the conductor play doctor and decide to make regular station stops? Stay tuned. This story isn't going away.
Michael
Washington, DC
Well true CSX made the decisions, but, and speaking as a conductor, you got to make a judgement call. If they are trying to tell you to move despite the situation, you emphasize the seriousness of the situation, and you hold the train. You have to make your own decision and act in the best interest of your customer's safety. I would have held the train without hesitation till the EMS came, and I'd be prepared to defend my decision to the end if anyone decided they wanna bring insubordination charges against me for acting in the well being and care of a customer aboard my train. You follow your judgement and humanity, not the judgement of some idiot who works in a nice, air conditioned, comfy dispatching center, whose only concern is the movement of the train and not the life of a human being.
Someone is responsiable for his death and of course it will be fought long and drawn out in a court room. Question I put to you who will be charged with neglagent homiside.
I think it will be the conductor, because the conductor has the power and the responsibility right there to hold the train and await medical help, and do as much as possible to comfort and aid the sick customer in any possible way, or in TA terms, render whatever assistance possible. He is in charge of the safety and well being of anyone aboard his train while it is in customer service, and it's his duty to act in their well being should an emergency come up. It's bad judgement calls like this that make people have a low confidence in mass transit, and want to use automobiles to get around.
If the conductor decided that the best course of action is to allow the train to run express to Back Bay, where medical help may be more quickly summoned, there may be nothing wrong with what he/she decided.
If the conductor was not aware of the fact that medical help was available in Newton, then that's an institutional issue that MBTA/Amtrak has to address.
If you have ever been to Newton commuter rail stop, you would not think medical help is available there.
If the engineer was not aware of the nature of the emergency, he/she may well have decided to make all station stops. If you're sitting in the locomotive up front, it won't be very clear to you what the nature of the emergency is unless the coach crew states very clearly that you should run express. Evidently, the conductor did not state this. The reason could be because (1) the conductor is not medically qualified and therefore did not know the seriousness of the situation; nor was he/she required to know (2) the conductor was concerned about belting pass Newtonville and West Newton at a full 79mph where the platforms are only 3 ft wide and likely to be packed with commuters.
THINK people. THINK. Do any of you have commuter rail operating experience? Been up there in the head end?
You people need to become rational. Clearly, the death of a passenger is an emotional issue. But in dealing with emotional issues, we must remain rational.
AEM7
Your post is a reasonable one, on the whole. Culpability is appropriately determined by MBTA's investigation, of course, not by Subtalkers posting (myself included).
However, a couple of issues:
"If you have ever been to Newton commuter rail stop, you would not think medical help is available there."
Not directly relevant to the discussion. If the train had been cleared to Back Bay to meet an ambulance at MAS of 79 mph, that's one thing. However, that was not the case.
I have been involved in patient evacuations from subway stations and remote railroad stations (on long-distance train travel, I tell the crew chief I'm a physician and available to them if needed and as a result, I have been asked to help on an emergency basis).
If choosing Back Bay as the evacuation point involved a medically unacceptable delay for whatever reason, a 911 call to EMS could have brought help to the Newton station. The physical configuration of Newton station might make things more difficult, but even at awkward stations the combination of a gurney and chair-lift, extrication equipment carried on engine companies, and lots of trained bodies helping (paramedics are frequently accompanied by a fire engine) will get anybody out of a station area. Then, an ambulance or helicopter, as appropriate, can get the victim to a hospital.
The point is, the crew (as a whole) ended up doing the worst thing they could have done (however, starting CPR immediately was a very good move, a point which I hope MBTA will recognize in its investigation).
What also has been mentioned did anyone on the crew attempt CPR on the victim? Did the crew ask the passengers if there were any EMT's or MD's on board to help while on the way?????
About two years ago my son was on a flight from Islip-MacArthur to Ft. Lauderdale when a passenger became ill. While the plane was being cleared for emergency landing at Raleigh-Durham a request was made over the loudspeakers for any doctors or nurses to come to the front of the plne.
As I posted before I have been on two Amtrak trains where there has been a medical emergency. One was at Wooster MA, the other at Providence RI. Both times a C/R was alerted, the C/R promptly called the head end and the E/R called the dispatch to called an Ambulence to meet the train at the next station. The first guy (Wooster) just felt sick. The second guy was sweating and delerious and has taken out on a stretcher. In both cases the crew paid special attention to the guy and seemed prepared to offer care if needed. There were many radio messages to update the E/R and Dispatcher of the situation. I felt it was a class act all the way. This latest case bafles me.
If you take all the MBTA's crews and grade them on safety/medical emergency procedure (or anything else), you will find some being truly outstanding, some above average, some average, some below average, and some truly lacking in important skills (hopefully the last category is removed from duty). It's possible this particular crew, with the exception of the one who performed CPR, was not in the average or above categories.
It's up to MBTA to determine culpability.
That would be Worcester. Wooster makes models.
Or Worcesteshisteshisteshire, which a famous wabbit once visited.
Woooooster is a Roooooster that haunts Western Massachusetts
Cute.
For one... I DO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE AND CURRENTLY WORK AS A CONDUCTOR ON A MAJOR TRANSIT SYSTEM THAT CARRIES AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE....MORE IN A DAY THAN MBTA PROBABLY DOES IN A WEEK, AND I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN MEDICAL EMERGENCIES ABOARD MY TRAIN, AND HAVE ACTED ALWAYS WITH THE WELL BEING AND BEST INTERESTS OF THE CUSTOMER'S SAFETY IN MIND!!
Second... GIVEN THAT THE CONDUCTOR IS IN CHARGE OF THE TRAIN, HE/SHE CAN INFORM THE ENGINEER VIA THE TRAIN'S INTERCOM SYSTEM OR VIA RADIO TO STOP AND STAY, INFORM THE ENGINEER, AND THE DISPATCHER AS TO THE NATURE OF THE EMERGENCY AND AWAIT MEDICAL ASSISTANCE TO ARRIVE!!
Third... USE COMMON EYE SIGHT AND COMMON SENSE TO SEE THE CUSTOMER IS NOT WELL, SINCE A CUSTOMER HAVING A HEART ATTACK WILL SHOW DEFINITE SIGNS THAT HE/SHE IS NOT WELL, AND KNOW, USING THAT SAME COMMON SENSE, THAT SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT, AND AS PER RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CUSTOMERS' SAFETY ABOARD YOUR TRAIN, MAKE THE APPROPRIATE ACTION TO AID THE CUSTOMER. YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE LOTS OF MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT SOMEONE AND TELL THEY ARE NOT WELL!!
Rational thinking, true, is what helps deal with emotional issues, but if the conductor had been thinking rationally, or even been thinking properly, the man would be alive at this time. But this didn't happen I guess, huh?
Since you ask, do you have any commuter rail and/or mass transit experience? Have you ever been in this situation? I have been in medical situations on my trains, and acting in the manner I did, and making the decisions I made, the customers who were sick were tended to in a timely manner by proper medical assistance, and LIVED!!! Until you are in the situation as many times as I been, do not lecture me about how to think in a situation like this, because I been there, done that, and I came through, and the person/persons made it through!!
>>> if the conductor had been thinking rationally, or even been thinking properly, the man would be alive at this time. <<<
There was no need to shout in your previous post.
I doubt that you or anyone else can tell from the published news reports whether that person would have survived if EMS had been summoned at Newton. The fact that he died without the earlier medical care says nothing about the outcome if care had been provided.
In early June, a friend of mine suffered a heart attack while in a hospital for tests. Because of the immediate response by trained and equipped medical personnel who saw the start of the episode, her life was saved, but she spent six weeks in intensive care, and her heart now operates at 15% efficiency, so she can barely get out of bed. The doctors said that if this had happened anywhere else, such as in the lobby of the hospital, she would not have survived.
At this point it is only speculation that the passenger would have survived if the conductor had done something different than he did, although it is clear that what was done was not the optimum response to the emergency.
Tom
It wasn't directed at you, Tom....it was directed at AEM7!! The whole post was.
It wasn't directed at you, Tom....it was directed at AEM7!! The whole post was.
Doesn't give you a right to yell. Anyway you'er posting to the board, not to me.
FYI, I was a planning manager for 2 years at a major commuter authority overseas. I also happen to think I know a few FRA safety rules. I see that you either have not had experience actually *operating* a train or a subway car, or are totally oblivious to the danger of by-passing scheduled stops in a railroad environment.
AEM7
"USE COMMON EYE SIGHT AND COMMON SENSE TO SEE THE CUSTOMER IS NOT WELL, SINCE A CUSTOMER HAVING A HEART ATTACK WILL SHOW DEFINITE SIGNS THAT HE/SHE IS NOT WELL, AND KNOW, USING THAT SAME COMMON SENSE, THAT SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT"
You are very correct. Even in EMS courses, they emphisize how the patient looks. People who are dangerously sick LOOK SICK.
I had one patien who was complaining of some mouth pain, said he was having a diabetic emergency: He looked ok, his vital signs looked ok, his blood sugar was ok. I told him that Medicare might not pay for an ambulance run, but he said that he felt awful, and needed to go to the hospital anyway.
As soon as I put a cardiac monitor on him, I saw a 'bad heart rythem', and told my partner to move it. Frankly the pt did not look as bad as the rythem suggested, eventhough the monitor kept saying 'check patient' (It says that if the patient is dead too, so that is not so helpful).
The patient said he had a pacemaker, but I could not see it on the monitor, so what I was looking at was not V-Tach, but rather an AV-Block. Apparently his pacemaker had stopped working. Not quite as urgent as I first suspected, but still urgent enough.
There are many things that can bring a patient down. Even as an EMS provider and an RN, I don't know them all. A train conductor knows less, but as Paul said, you don't need that to know that someone looks sick.
Elias
have a low confidence in mass transit, and want to use automobiles to get around.
Oh Great! What a rotten idea.
Go ahead and have your heart attack while driving a car.
It will be a TREE that will stop you (if everyone else is lucky.)
Yes, a transit provider needs to have protocols for situations like this, but I am here to tell you that life and death is not in the hands of a train conductor (Conductor Darwin notwithstanding), or even of the best physician or paramedic in the field.
Elias
Yeah, sometimes it's just not up to us...
Maybe so, but the decisions you make can make a difference whether or not the customer lives or dies. Maybe if the right decision was made and better judgement exercised, the guy would still be alive today. Unfortunately reality is that poor judgement was exercised, a man is now dead, lawsuits are more than likely pending, and a conductor might not only be a former conductor soon, but could end up wearing a uniform of a different type....the kind that has black and white stripes, with a "State Prison" logo on it!!
Maybe if the right decision was made and better judgement exercised...
If you really think like that, it's you who should be out on the streets. What kind of scum worker do not back up the actions of a brother? Alright, he's not in the same union as you, and not even in the same city. But we're all railroaders.
Wait, no you're a transit-worker scumbag, aren't ya? Ah, that's why. Well pull your nose out of railroaders' business, just cuz you can run a tiny little EMU doesn't mean you know how to run a train...
AEM7
>>> Question I put to you who will be charged with neglagent homiside. <<<
Wait a minute, put away the rope and stop whipping up the lynch mob. It is not clear than anyone will or should be charged with negligent homicide. To convict for negligent homicide it is necessary to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that but for the defendant's negligent actions or failure to act, the deceased would not have died. In this case it certainly not clear from the news reports that the person would have survived the heart attack if medical personnel arrived on the scene at the train's first stop. There will no doubt be civil lawsuits.
Tom
Wow, a lawyer who talks sense :-)
If anyone is near a radio they might want to tune into the 'Ron & Fez Show' currently airing on 102.7. They are comparing celebriites to trains (examples: 'The Andrew Dice Clay Train -- fun to ride years ago, but it's no longer any fun'. 'The Archie Bunker Train -- has one chair and no one is allowed to sit in it!' 'The Shortest Train -- JFK to JFK, Jr.').
Check it out -- very funny stuff!
Ron and Fez SUCK.
-Hank
It is my understanding that most tracks in the US are lined with a wire; when the wire is broken (ie when the rail breaks and moves, breaking the wire), an alarm indicator is triggered at the railroad's control center.
Why didn't this happen in Maryland on the CSX tracks? Is it because the rail and wire remained intact (that is, still joined) even though the rail was now out of alignment?
The rail has current going thru it, it is the wire, just a big one.
when wire moves but is still electricaly intact it won't drop the signal however.
this also happened in the Bayou Cannot incident with the bridge hit by the barges.
with a sunkink the rail is still intact physicaly but out of allignment.
I was riding on the LIRR one night, and track continuity was lost between Freeport and Merrick. The conductor and the brakeman were out with flashlights walking ahead of the train (it looked as if they wer trying to pull the train with a rope) inspecting the tracks.
The never did find the cause of the problem and when the train entered the next track section, they climbed aboard, and the train took off again.
Elias
The Maryland accident is no different from what happened earlier this summer with the derailment in Florida. According to some sources, CSX has very poor maintenance and inspections standards. Isn't it odd that a majority of Amtrak trains happen to derail on CSX owned tracks but a CSX freight can make it through without a problem? It's time that CSX Corp. take into consideration that while Amtrak is a tenant on its lines, they operate high-speed trains and they should be more considerate of their maintenance standards. IT AIN'T JUST SLOW RUNNING FREIGHT TRAINS!
And the Capitol Limitied seems to have more than its fair share of problems.....A couple of years ago, an Amtrak (Cap Lmtd) train rear-ended an auto carrier at the CSX yard in Cumberland, MD
I don't think this is widespread practice. Broken rail detection
is effected through closed-circuit track circuits, not with
extra wires. Track circuits won't detect kinks.
Yes, thank you.
It would be nice to have an alarm which could also detect a change in geometry on the tracks. An infrared, radar, laser or sonar device could do this; but the technology has not reached a point where the tracks could be protected for nominal cost.
Sounds like a Slide Detector you're describing.
It's a Hi-V on some IRT line, but I'm at a loss as to where it is. I don't know of any IRT elevated which crosses such an extensive collection of trackage on the surface:
That's Concourse Yard in the background. Taken from the Northbound platform of Bedford Park Boulevard (#4).
Damn, that was quick. Thanks.
OK then, who's that at the RFW? A parent or grandparent of a SubTalker???!!!
It's Sea Beach Fred, in his younger days!
Nah, he wouldn't have gone to the Bronx (if they would have let him in.).
Right, all he would have got is a Bronx cheer !
How can you tell it's a Hi-V and not a Lo-V? The electric running lights indicate a relatively recent picture and I can't read the number.
It's labeled as a Hi-V. I assumed it was labeled correctly. My knowledge of pre-unification IRT rolling stock is almost non-existant.
Hey Chris,
No disagreement on location with Dave. Put the picture may be mislabeled.
The electric running lights tend without seeing the car number toward Low V.
I agree on Paul about this. Unless it was converted to non~revenue service,
but then they painted them Yellow or on another recent post Silver. Didn't they?
I'm not a R/T expert, but the Hi Vs ceased service in the mid
fifties, when the R-17 arrived and enough Low Vs were available to shift to the
West Side Lines. Even the running lights were added later
to the R-17s, that's why Branford can not return 6688 to an as
delivered restoration. Mods done after delivery by the TA.
;-) Sparky
>>> How can you tell it's a Hi-V and not a Lo-V? <<<
The number in the caption, 3471 is a Hi-V number (ACF 1910-11), and when the picture is magnified, that does appear to be the number on the car. The clearest way to tell a Hi-V are the horizontal panels below the windows on the doors. Again with magnification, there appears to be a slight shadow of one of the panels on the middle door. Also this is a Joe Testagrose photo, which gives me confidence in correctness of the caption.
Tom
Tom,
The first run of regular Hi-Vs (the first was 3350, IIRC) did not look like that, unless I'm very mistaken. 3471 may even have been a deck roof, and you couldn't possibly mistake that.
The first two numbers look like "74" not "34" with or without Photoshop. Since were no original IRT cars above the 5600s, it is most probable that the bar on the first number make the car "54xx," a Lo-V.
Also see Joe Frank's extensive post.
>>> it is most probable that the bar on the first number make the car "54xx," a Lo-V <<<
After reviewing the photo and others on this site, I tend to agree with you that it is a 54xx Lo-V that is pictured. The most convincing comparison was with Lo-V 5470, a picture credited to Steve Hoskins. A second comparison to Hi-V 3398, which would have been in the same series as 3471, reveals significant differences, although not a deck roof, which seems to be limited to the cars in the series 3650-3699.
Tom
Ok, it's moved to the proper section. By the way, there was already a picture of 5471 on the site!
there was already a picture of 5471 on the site!
Small world! :)
>>> Ok, it's moved to the proper section. By the way, there was already a picture of 5471 on the site! <<<
Now that we determined that this is a Lo-V, what happened to the front pantograph? We don't want it mistaken for an R-44. :-)
Tom
>>> Now that we determined that this is a Lo-V, what happened to the front pantograph? <<<
I am surprised no one caught my error here. Although we all think of pantographs being part of the veteran fleet, they were not. From looking at the pictures on this site, it appears that the BMT Standards were the first to use spring loaded pantographs (the D types did not), and the feature was incorporated in the R-1 contract for the IND, but the IRT never used pantographs in any pre-unification equipment. The first IRT equipment with pantographs was the post-war R-12. Prior to that the IRT favored accordion gates attached to the right side of each car by the cab, which would be stretched and attached to the next car when the cars were connected, more like the flexible cords used on the R-44 and later models than spring loaded pantographs.
Tom
Hello (OLD) Tom
It doesnt surprise me ---I have posted a number of times here re: "Whereisit??" topic and not one person commented to me about any/all my substantative data presented for the (heh "Hi-V") Low-V Car and Stillwell Terminal Photos except the for the one poster-individual when I wrote "misguided fools" in my text on the Low-V photo topic---as they continued to post on and on after my Low-V data proof --about it being a Hi-V with a Hi-V #
So Far, No one but me commented about (or possibly caught!!??) the "POLO Grounds" shuttle error-suggestion for the BMT Standards at Stillwell shot.
I guess people are being extra cautious here at Daves after the brouha last week...or just dont know much or much care or desire to be bothered about history and "details of the ancient era and order of things..." from "our" youth. I CAUGHT the segue of your "IRT pantograph post" but didnt respond because
I infact "knew what you were pulling" (heh) and why (re: posted lack of visual knowledge shown for identity of an IRT Hi-V or Low-V !!
Regards!! -- Joe
No, I think people were accepting your expertise at face value.
As to the Polo Grounds error you pointed out, I don't think it really needed extra comment. You were simply right.
Also people don't always (or some people ever) read all the existing posts before posting themselves.
Sometimes when someone asks a specific question, I'll read all the first replies (to the original question) and not the follow-ups. If noone accuratelt answered the question in the first round of replies, I may without going down the whole thread.
Dave is right -his location stated is absolutely correct !! ---but MORE details left out, as follows:
This photo was taken somewhere between the very late 1930's and early 1950's. The train IS NOT a HIGH-V, its a Low-V set --it has no HI-V 600 VDC jumper Cable MU "Pockets" under the anticlimber and it has LOW-V Doors (all Hi-V "Headley Standard Body" Motors (which this car is NOT ) --which shared a common Low-V type body --had 3 panels in the side doors and 2 in the front storm door.
NOTE THE Elevated 3rd rail - high and close to the track, along with covered (old pre-1960 style cover style) "subway type" third rail. Note the "modified third rail" by the subway car ---a "transition section for subway car shoes (lower and further out [than el-car-type shoes] when on "their" Rail) to guide the outer contact end of the subway car "paddle shoe" UP onto the "higher, closer el type third rail without the subway shoe "snagging" the end of the higher, closer elevated position 3rd rail. <> NOTE <> the above right where the forward truck third rail subway "paddle" shoe is just about at the "transition" bend of the compromise rail.
The "elevated" style third rail was used to get IRT 9th Avenue El "Gate", MUDC and Composite-Car Elevated trains up to the Woodlawn IRT yards and shops.
Wooden El Trains used the 9th (and 6th) Avenue el(s) with service from South Ferry to Woodlawn-Jerome on this section. After the 9th ave El was abandoned in June 1940 (6th was closed in 1938) --the line still run as a shuttle between Polo Grounds 155th St. Station and Burnside Avenue Station on the Jerome Line section--still using EL and later "Composite" cars (all with elevated type drop-sled shoes) until 1950. Then steel High-V, and later by 1954, Low-V Steel replacement cars provided the service. They had their "subway" paddle-type shoes cut back as they could not clear the tunnel walls of the Sedwick-Anderson shuttle tunnel..El type position 3rd rail was what the tunnel walls clearance was designed for when built in 1916. THATS why subway "AND EL" type 3rd rail was STILL used on the Jerome line above 161st Station from 1940 thru 1950 AND continued with steel car operation up until the shuttle quit in 1958.
Lastly, note the semaphore signal(s) ---these were prevalent on the Jerome Line until the early 60's when they were replaced--tho this scene is obviously mid to early 50' or earlier---due to the 3rd rail specifics.
Hope the legthy details above didnt bore anyone --but the photo reveals a lot more (to me) as you see.
Below is a "model photo" taken on MY NYC O-Scale El System of my scratchbuilt IRT Hi-V "Gibbs" motor car in a Hi-V train...the preceeding car is my scratchbuilt "Headley-Standard-Body" High-V with the 3-paneled side doors.
Regards - Joe
Joseph Frank
NYC Model Transit System
NYC Transit Modelers Group
So anyone want to take a crack at reading the number off that car?
Tried my best...strained my eyes trying....
At first I thought the first two numbers were 74, but as I kept looking in may be a 2 as the first number....okay I have a headache now. Someone else will have to give it a try......
Chris
Well the proper range would be 3350-4024 for a Hi-V (the slide was labeled 3471, incorrectly I guess) or 4025-5652 for a Low-V. It could further be eliminated by not accounting for the ranges of numbers assigned to trailer cars and also probably the Steinway motors.
Well I'm pretty sure the first number is not a 4 or 5, so it must be a 3, and a Hi-V.
At first I thought the first two numbers were 74
I read the entire number as 7471, but that can't be correct.
7428? Just a guess.
Low V Motor and Trail cars were numbered 4025 thru
5652.
Of that Low V Class --the lower geared "standard body" Steinway Motors (there were NO Steinway trailers) were in the above group - numbered themselves as:
4025-4036 /
4215-4222 & 4555-4576 (1915 low-V trailers converted to Steinway Motors in 1929) /
4700-4770 /
5628-5652
I left out the 1939 IRT Worlds Fair Low-V Steinway-Class cars (oh heck, they are noted NOW anyway ) - #5653-5702) as body style is different than the car in the Jerome photo.
Car 7428 would be an NYCTA post war R type --way off base ! Try using (heh) a microscope to read the Low V car #
Regards - Joe
It's 3471 but I didn't have to cross my eyes or make Photoshop do perverse things. ;-)
TO: - Paul Matus
Hey, Paul, -- ummm, aaah, "HELLO, PAUL" --(that fits better !)
Now dont some of these uninformed fools here who continue to state the number is in 34 hundred series ---KNOW the difference between an IRT Hi-V Gibbs car
(or remumbered Composite trailer cars made into motors in 3300 series as one guy thought the second # was definitely a 3 --was that Mr.GP-38 ??)
Jeeze, I rode all those cars (Composites (as a small kid) and Deck, Gibbs, Headley (standard) Hi-V's, Flivers, low-V and Steinway cars, plus the IRT EL MUDC, IRT & BMT Q-types and some gate cars-- and studied their details for many more years and modeled them accurately.
You and I and Bigedirtrmanl and other guys who were there back in those days -- KNOW its a Low-V Motor ---forget the number - just by looks. IF it were a Steinway Motor, you and I KNOW it would have a RED line (heh, not in B & W tho) UNDER he numbner, and if a FLIVER (Hi-Lo-V hybrid series which could ONLY run within their own class as ALL MOTORS) - would have a WHITE line under the number
So, COME ON fellows, start focusing on the LOW-V number series and stop (heh heh "fartin" around and spinning wheels in the lower number Hi-V Class. Big ED will back me up here too.
Class dismissed guys--do your homework under the LOW-V Series !!
Regards all, Joe
Joseph Frank
Webmaster - NYC Transit Modelers Group (Forum)
Co-Founder - NYC Model Transit Assn.
Builder - NYC Model Transit System Layout
Hows this for IRT WF Steinway models - scratchbuilt by me w/full authentic details & layout for interiors (including ad signs & route signs),
exterior, underbody & trucks - in O scale (have 2 cars) -as seen on my "NY City El", using "elevated style" 3rd rail for use by both subway car "paddle" and elevated car "drop sled" pickup shoes. Here are some "detail" photos---
How about some Redbird and Fishbowl action, BELOW:
Now dont some of these uninformed fools here who continue to state the number is in 34 hundred series ---KNOW the difference between an IRT Hi-V Gibbs car (or remumbered Composite trailer cars made into motors in 3300 series as one guy thought the second # was definitely a 3 --was that Mr.GP-38 ??)
Before you start spouting off about people being "uninformed fools", it says right here on nycsubway.org that the car in question is a Hi-V. If we're "uninformed" then the supposedly authoritative material here is wrong. If the material is inaccurate, you should point that out to Dave so it can be further researched and corrected, not make disparaging remarks about people who can only cite it. I wasn't born until 1953 and didn't live in NYC until 1974, so I lack the first-hand experience to "know" the differences. Granted, there are bound to be errors here and there (I've caught a few myself), but I doubt the entire Hi-V section could be completely wrong for this long without someone having questioned it.
Relax guys... It was a new photo added last week from Joe Testagrose's collection. It wasn't sitting there for years incorrectly labeled. Even if it was, so what? Mistakes happen. I trust that the captions on photos that I receive are correct -- especiall since Joe's meticulous about it. But since it's an older photo in his collection -- not one of his own or his photo buddies from the 60s and 70s Steve Zabel, Doug Grotjahn, etc-- he probably never looked too closely. Relax!
That's what's amazing about railfans. It's like a science almost. If someone makes a mistake, it WILL be noticed and the person corrected, whether it's here, or at a slide show, or wherever. It's amazing how a lot of fans will have memorized the exact numbers and type of trains so readily and efficiently. It's a lot to remember!
TO: (Mr.) DUPONT CIRCLE
RELAX fellow fan !! ---I was just "chiding & ribbing" the guys ---and I DID point out that it was NOT a HI-V and WHY --on the board, and a lot more peripheral info per the photo...yet my posted info appeared to just be IGNORED it seemed, and the HI-V car number "rattling on" just continued onward....so what more do you want from me??? (Ignorance is bliss??)
Its not anyone's fault, least of all Dave P's, that he used photo caption info provided to him incorrectly from years ago. Dave - like we all do, relies on the veracity of the contributor of photos...and seeing how many photos he gets submitted from this boards members -- it's probably astounding --he would be hard pressed to have to "proof-check" each one himself.
As a Webmaster of my own Message Forum Board, "NYC Transit Modelers Group", I am sure you know we aren't paid for all the time we have to invest in our respective "boards" for the enjoyment and info-benefit of our members.
I myself DID NOT know that the posted photo was from the "sub talk pre-war photo archives" as it now appears stated as such --...and listed incorrectly in the HI-V section....or I would have emailed Dave the correct caption info had I seen it. I assumed it was the poster's personal photo acquired somewhere.
So, your reply to me about my "fools" remark I can readily understand, but just as equally, it would help you to realize that I go way back time-wise with old friends of mine like Don Harold, Herman Rinke, Art Lonto's, Roger Arcara, Ed Watson, E J Quimby and too many, many others to list ---(ie: our Paul Matus here, I have ALL his original Silver Leaf & related publications and a BRASS HO BMT Standard then produced by him --all acquired by me in the early to mid 60's FROM HIM and not recently, heh, thru EBAY !!!) ---all friends I knew well and long ago (and some, many, now departed like Herman, Roger, Ed, "E J" , and more) --these legends whom most of you here likely never knew personally, and only remotely heard or read about, if that !! I have been in his (our) hobby field photographing & riding since 1954 (and just riding albeit since 1948 as a kid)--and have had published articles and contributed to a number of publications, ran a RR magazine, --so maybe next time when you see me post any info on OLD era topic items , which I dont do often here at Dave's fine "club car"---perhaps you will give me some credit due for having "been there and lived thru" times you can only read about...long before your R-40's thru R-143's of today. I have been scratchbuilding museum caliber, scale, accurate NYC Transit models (HO & O) for the past 40 years..and THAT requires MUCH blueprint, data, detail and equipment research on the prototype to "get it accurate" !!!
My old (and again, departed) friend and publisher, who I wrote much for in his magazine, "Traction & Models" in the early 80's, Vane Jones, long ago coined a phrase which I adopted and still use -- "Knowledge is useless unless shared" ---it has long become my motto. It was on the cover masthead of every T&M Magazine issue (6 a year) Vane published from the early 60's! It ran for about 25 years till Vane's death around 1987.
Any knowledge I (or anyone very knowedgable) have is also useless unless shared - and even more useless if shared but ignored by (heh heh "fools") those who chose to do so -- its their loss, not mine !
I hope I have provided a little more insight & understanding for you, fellow fan.
Sincerest regards -
Joseph Frank
@ NYCMTS-NYCTMG-NYCMTA
Well, the first two numbers almost have to be "54". The first number could only be 3, 4 or 5. IRT "3" had a rounded top. Only "5" had a straight top.
It's 54xx, maybe 5471. Gotta be.
This one is easy. This is on the Woodlawn-Jerome Line just south of Bedford Park Blvd station. The bridge in the background is Bedford Park Blvd and from the looks of it, the yard in the background looks like the IND Concourse Yard.
That was a bit too easy, wasn't it. Even I guessed it, and I'm not usually good with pictures like that.
It's just NORTH of the BPB Station. The bridge in the background is W205th St.
Peace,
ANDEE
On the news today I saw video of an R62A with no A/C yesterday afternoon. On the NY1 website video clips they showed a chaotic 74th/Roosevelt station, some people claiming they had to wait 20 minutes for a train.
Others spoke of the hot packed 7 train, with no A/C. And another, said we don't need this, in addition to the stupid bus strike that is continuing for Queens.
Shutting off a/c on the 7 was not a smart move by the TA, sounds like more of a dangerous one to me. Now we know running less trains saves energy, but I doubt shutting off a/c was that effective.
Also two more fires today, one at the 14th street plant, the same one that blacked out lower Manhattan, and another at the Keyspan Far Rockaway plant. Fortunately, no outages to report.
I tell ya NYC Transit is really suffering this summer, and it's making LI Bus look better and better. :-)
an R62A with no A/C ?? ......where were the REDBIRD HATERS CLUB ??
......on man the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB WOULD HAVE HAD TO EAT CROW!
an R62A with no A/C ?? ......where were the REDBIRD HATERS CLUB ??
......on man the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB WOULD HAVE HAD TO EAT CROW!
a good old ( no railfan window ) an R62A with no A/C ????....LOL!!
Yeah, looks like I blew it in another thread on the subject, saying that the AC had not been turned off. Guess I should listen to the news on a news station, not on a music station :-)
(Let's not allow this to become a radio discussion, though...that's what the New York Radio Message Board is for, as some of you know.)
Anyway, NYCT spokesperson Charlie Seaton was quoted in one of the papers, talking specifically about the AC having been turned off on #7 trains. Other papers had quotes from other spokespeople, but they didn't specifically address the air conditioning issue, only saying (pretty much) "we did what we had to do," without saying what that WAS.
David
an R62A with no A/C ?? ......where were the REDBIRD HATERS CLUB ??
......on man the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB WOULD HAVE HAD TO EAT CROW!
a good old ( no railfan window ) an R62A with no A/C ????....LOL!!
Inspired by the Boston incident, I want to relate a real incident on the LIRR, and wonder what the consensus of SubTalkers would do.
About 10 years ago, my rush hour Babylon trsin was pulling into Jamaica. Next stop was Rockville Centre, about 20 minutes away.
A man norified the conductor that he was having chest pains, and requested that the crew radio ahead to Rockville Centre to notify his cardiologist, who would arrange to have an ambulance meet the train there.
The conductor told him, "No way, Jose" and immediately radioed NYPD and EMS to meet the train at Jamaica where the man would be taken to the coronary unit at Jamaica Hospital. EMS and NYPD responded promptly.
The man insisted he be taken to Rockville Centre for his own doctor and hospital. He said he knew his condition and this is what he wanted. Lots of witnesses heard him take responsibility for the danger. The crew insisted that he had to go to the nearest and quickest facility, and Jamaica was it. There was a four-way discussion (NYPD, EMS, crew, passenger) which used up about 15 or 20 minutes.
Finally, the passenger was allowed to go to Rockville Centre where the ambulance was waiting. Happy ending.
_Aside_ from the obvious liability issues, what would _you_ have done if you were the person on the scene who had to make the final decision? Jamaica or Rockville Centre?
I don't believe the railroad could be forced to transport a passenger who might die before the next stop. On the other hand, I believe that a conscious person generally has the right to determine or even refuse medical care, even if it endangers their lives. Please forget about passengers' inconvenience. The man didn't mean to hold up the train, he was concerned about life and death.
It's too obvious to say that there would have been hell to pay if he went into cardiac arrest before RVC. But then there might have been hell to pay if he went to Jamaica hospital and died because the emergency medics there didn't understand his condition.
What would you have done?
This is not an uncommon occurence. EMS crews face it all the time.
First, understand that Jamaica Hospital has an excellent, truly first class emergency department with a cardiac care unit, and the best decision from a purely medical point of view would have been to take the man to Jamaica Hospital and put the ER physician there in touch with the man's cardiologist.
If I recall correctly, New York is "zoned" and therefore EMS must take patients to the designated zone hospital. A private ambulance is under no such restriction.
If the man were unconscious, this is what would have happened.
If I recall correctly, New York is "zoned" and therefore EMS must take patients to the designated zone hospital. A private ambulance is under no such restriction.
However, this man, being conscious, was a sentient adult legally able to make decisions for himself. Thus, if he says, "Don't touch me. I only want my own doctor to treat me," then legally, that request must be honored, even as the EMS crew advises him as to the risks of not being treated immediately.
I think ultimately LIRR did the right thing. However, I hope they made him sign a release. Never know what a shyster lawyer could make out of this.
If you were objectively considering the "patient's best interest" even if it defied his stated desires, do you Jamaica or RVC would have been the right choice?
Oh, clearly, Jamaica. No question. The patient could always be transferred to Rockville Center after being stabilized.
Sorry, I think you already answered that. Jamaica.
Not to make this even more complicated, but could the stress and anxiety of being taken to an unknown hospital and doctor against his wishes worsen his condition from anxiety and stress?
>>> could the stress and anxiety of being taken to an unknown hospital and doctor against his wishes <<<
But that could not happen. As Ron pointed out, a conscious adult has the absolute right to decline medical treatment. He cannot be taken against his will to any unknown hospital. The attempt to take him there would be kidnaping, false imprisonment, and when medical personnel touched him assault and battery.
Tom
Very true, Tom. Very accurate.
However, were paramedics to return to the same patient 10 minutes later and find him comatose, the principle of implied consent would apply, whereupon the paramedics would assume the patient wants to be saved, and would then treat and transport as per protocol.
I won't get into Do Not Resuscitate situations here - they are observed most often in a hospital setting. While legally they would apply out in the street too, in actual practice things get really sticky sometimes.
As Ron pointed out, a conscious adult has the absolute right to decline medical treatment. He cannot be taken against his will to any unknown hospital. The attempt to take him there would be kidnaping, false imprisonment, and when medical personnel touched him assault and battery.
True. On the other hand, the LIRR conductor could have refused to let the man ride to Rockville Centre.
He'd have no grounds to do it and would be easily sued for discrimination. There's no right to discriminate against injured/disabled people. And, as far as anyone knows, he doesn't have any transmittable illness - heart problems are not contagious. He's not endangering anyone nor breaking any rules. If he has a ticket, let the man ride.
A railroad ticket (or a Metrocard swipe, for that matter) is usually considered a revocable license to ride. That license could be revoked under certain circumstances, but the man was not creating a disturbance, and was exercising a right to refuse treatment on the basis of his reasoned assessment of his own medical condition. If he hadn't asked for the ambulance, there is no reason anyone would have known anything was wrong, at least at that juncture.
I doubt any court would find that his having chest pains breached his license.
You're assuming that if the conductor refuses him passage, he will be forced to be treated at Jamaica Hospital. But that would be wrong. He might try other means to get to RVC. Maybe he'll wait for the next train. Maybe he'll call a cab, or call his doctor and see if an ambulance could be sent to Jamaica. He might die waiting. Courts would not look kindly on that.
In retrospect, even though it turned out OK, I wonder if the man wishes he had talked to the crew after they left Jamaica, not as they were entering it.
A railroad ticket (or a Metrocard swipe, for that matter) is usually considered a revocable license to ride. That license could be revoked under certain circumstances, but the man was not creating a disturbance, and was exercising a right to refuse treatment on the basis of his reasoned assessment of his own medical condition. If he hadn't asked for the ambulance, there is no reason anyone would have known anything was wrong, at least at that juncture.
I doubt any court would find that his having chest pains breached his license.
One could argue that the man had a strong chance of creating a "disturbance," namely dropping dead.
In addition, the train was an unsuitable way of transporting him to Rockville Centre and the waiting ambulance. While it may have been scheduled as a 20-minute run, there was always the chance that it could have become delayed along the way - possibly between stations, which would have been a real problem if the man collapsed at that point, making a rescue difficult.
One could argue that the man had a strong chance of creating a "disturbance," namely dropping dead.
Not the kind of disturbance envisioned by the Rules of Conduct (or whatever the RR equivalent is).
In addition, the train was an unsuitable way of transporting him to Rockville Centre and the waiting ambulance. While it may have been scheduled as a 20-minute run, there was always the chance that it could have become delayed along the way - possibly between stations, which would have been a real problem if the man collapsed at that point, making a rescue difficult.
That is really a stretch. The chances of the train not making it save in the face of some extreme (and already known) tie-up is remote. The chances of making it even in 20 minutes by ambulance (which can pass traffic lights) on empty roads is remote, if you know anything about the street structure between Jamaica and RVC. And this was rush hour.
What you're really trying to do (as I'm sure you'd admit) is make up a plausable sounding rationale to dump the guy. There are people who would have no trouble seeing through this. I'm think they're aclled juries.
It's been a long time, but reaching back to my business law courses umpty years ago, IIRC, when you are legitimately present on someone's commercial property (which includes the railroad, state ownership or not), even, say, a departemnt strore, the owner of that property has a responsibility to you if you are injured or ill. They can't just get a bunch of gloorwalkers to wrap you in a blanket and dump you on the street because you're taking up space.
What you're really trying to do (as I'm sure you'd admit) is make up a plausable sounding rationale to dump the guy. There are people who would have no trouble seeing through this. I'm think they're aclled juries.
No one's talking about dumping the man off without care. Immediate assistance was available at Jamaica. The railroad should not have had to bear the responsibility of transporting someone in very fragile health, just because he wanted to be treated in RVC.
when you are legitimately present on someone's commercial property... the owner of that property has a responsibility to you if you are injured or ill.
Right. But presence on that commercial property is also subject to management discretion. There are usually published procedures on what to do in case of an injury or medical emergency. If someone else is taking responsibility for your well-being, then you must follow their published procedures. If the published procedure is to stick you in an EMS truck and head for the nearest medical facility (in this case Jamaica), then you must do that. If you choose to make your own decisions, then you alone are responsibile for the consequences of that decision, which may involve being left on the platform at Jamaica because the LIRR management has refused carriage.
AEM7
This was a complex situation. The man was not in visible distress. Knowing his own condition, he believed he needed treatment by his regular cardiologist and asked the railroad to save him time and danger by notifying his doctor in advance.
The conductor, so notified, properly deemed that this might be a medical emergency, and called EMS and NYPD.
If he refused to go to Jamaica hospital, and was fully ambulatory, fully rational, and not in visible distress (all true), the railroad would have needed a hell of a good rationale to toss him out on the platform.
I would bet that, if the railroad put him off, and he suffered physically as a result, it would sort out in court something like this:
1. John Doe requested that his doctor be notified to meet him at Rockville Centre.
2. The conductor properly notified EMS and NYPD.
3. EMS wanted the man to go to Jamaica Hospital and he refused.
4. EMS could not find that the man was in a condition that justified involuntary admission. EMS released him.
5. John Doe has in no way violated the Rules of Conduct. He was not incapacitated or abusive and he then exercised his contractual right to continued passage.
6. The railroad refused and physically put him out on the platform.
7. John Doe suffered a heart attack attempting to get alternate transportation to his hospital.
8. The railroad is neglegent.
"In retrospect, even though it turned out OK, I wonder if the man wishes he had talked to the crew after they left Jamaica, not as they were entering it."
More importantly, I hope the man remembered to thank the crew for their concerned, competent and compassionate attention to his situation.
I would NOT attempt to banter these threads...a good citizen and responsible rail employee must ignore refusal of a concious adult to receive medical attention and turn the matter over to medical response...while we may have some medical knowledge about injury, best to turn the matter over to the 'certified'. CI Peter
First the man asked for assistance, but he asked for specific assistance, ie. transport to RVC with an ambulance waiting there.
LIRR acted correctly in getting local EMS on the scene.
Now it is NOT true that *any* conscious adult can 'refuse' medical care. Only one who is *competent* may do that. The drunk are not competent, neither are the senile, retarded or insane, though you would have to have more information to make a judgement in these cases, and in all such cases police intervention would be required to force a conscious but otherwise incometent adult into a care situation that thwy want to refuse. The Police were on the scene.
The man clearly passed such rudementary cometency tests as could be administered in the field. The man knew his own medical condition, and knew what sort of treatment he needed and the consequences of putting it off another 20 minutes.
He would have been smart to have waited until the train was half way to RVC, but that is another story. If I were with a private ambulance service, I would have voulntered to ride with the man to RVC on the train, having some oxygen and meds with me just in case, but it is not likely that city EMS personel would have been allowed to do this.
As a nurse, I have traveled with elderly (somewhat incompetent) patients on public transportation (aircraft), (from a nursing home in Califorina to one in North Dakota). It *is* done all of the time.
Just like in the Boston case where the man clearly needed medical help 'right now', in this instance, the man appeared to be competent to make his own decisions.
Elias
He would have been smart to have waited until the train was half way to RVC
All that would be needed would be the train clearing the platform at Jamaica. The logistics of backing the train or trying to get help past the station platform would probably have been much worse (time and everything else-wise) than beating it out to Rockville Centre.
But I thuoght of this, and another thought occurred to me. If he felt there was any chance at all of becoming unconcious before clearing Jamaica, no one would have had a clue to his condition, or maybe even that he wasn't asleep.
If I were with a private ambulance service, I would have voulntered to ride with the man to RVC on the train, having some oxygen and meds with me just in case, but it is not likely that city EMS personel would have been allowed to do this.
That's a wonderful idea. But I think the man, in addition to being insistent, managed to convince EMS that his course was reasonable.
If the exigent circumstances warranted it, I'm guessing one or two EMS members could have done with him, protocol notwithstanding, but I may be wrong.
He would have been smart to have waited until the train was half way to RVC
All that would be needed would be the train clearing the platform at Jamaica. The logistics of backing the train or trying to get help past the station platform would probably have been much worse (time and everything else-wise) than beating it out to Rockville Centre.
Why wouldn't the train have stopped at a station before RVC, say St. Albans?
At St. Albans you're only 10-11 minutes from Rockville Centre. Then you have to get an EMS crew upstrairs and, if the man needs to be carried on a strecther, downstairs. RVC is ADA compliant with an elevator, St. Albans isn't. Plus now you have to go a significant distance back to Jamaica Hospital.
The next platform in that route is at Lynbrook. By that time, you're less than two minutes (I've timed it) to Rockville Centre.
Emergency situation...an ill pasenger...the passenger is concious and can coherently relate the medical condition. What you must do is coherently relate the situation to operations and get a coherent response. A human life is at risk...RTo skeds threaten a G2...and you have to make a rapid decision that you may have never made in your entire lifetime. Our training can never encompass every situation...better to have to deal with a G2 than live with 'a failure of choice' upon your conscience. You can be a real 'TA Ranger' or just a number on the seniority list. CI Peter
Train conductors can refuse to transport a passenger whose continuied presence may present a possible risk to the other passengers or to the crew. While that's obviously intended for use with respect to disorderly or intoxicated passengers, it probably could be stretched to include the situation under discussion. As noted, removing the passenger at Jamaica would have caused him some inconvenience but no physical risk, given the availabilty of medical help in the vicinity.
Good point, Peter.
Put him off a Jamaica.
I'd say the right thing to do is to minimize the time until medical care is available. Ideally, there would be radio contact with emergency services, and the train would to the place of quickest access -- with a battery run, if necessary.
Now if it was going to take 20 mintues for emergency help to reach the passenger at Jamaica, then go to Rockville Center. But if EMS can meet you in Jamaica, with a hospital right nearby, then that's the place to go.
I don't think the subway communication system is set up to allow that kind of rapid decisionmaking. Maybe after the Rail Control Center, ATS etc. is running in 2010 -- if it isn't lost to the budget crisis, but not now. True.
I see what you're saying, Peter. But since the man wasn't frothing at the mouth or writhing on the floor or something, it's kind of a nasty way to go about it.
It's kind of like saying "You have the right to make your medical decisions, so if you want to go to Rockville Centre, you can walk."
>>> removing the passenger at Jamaica would have caused him some inconvenience but no physical risk <<<
Aren't you forgetting, now he has to find alternate transportation to get to his doctor. Suppose that takes 30 minutes longer than riding on the train, and ten minutes before arriving at the hospital where his doctor is, he has a heart attack. There would clearly be no liability for the railroad if they transported him and something happened because he assumed the risk by refusing treatment in Jamaica. But if he cannot get to his doctor in time because the railroad refused to transport him??? That might be lawsuit time.
Tom
Last summer, I fell and broke my wrist. My wife panicked and thought I was going to pass out, so she called 911. While on the phone, I told her I was not going to pass out, so tell them not to come. When she relayed this message, they told her that once you call 911 you effectively cannot "uncall" them.
I once worked part-time for an income tax preparation company. We were told that if a client says something like: "I fix cars on the side and I get paid in cash. Do I have to report that income?" that the answer is "Yes". If you know about it, you can't look the other way.
I think in this case if the passenger is sick enough to tell the conductor about it, then the conductor has an obligation to get emergency help ASAP. After the EMT's come, and, assuming the patient is relatively stable, if he wants to continue to Rockville Center, fine.
Frankly, if the passenger told the conductor to call ahead, and they left it at that, that would have been the longest 20 minutes of his life, assuming he survived.
As far as not getting to his doctor on time, he could get to the Jamaica hospital sooner and they can phone his doctor from there for advice. After he was stable, he could be transferred to another hospital.
If this person already knew of a pre-existing heart condition, and had already decided that only his own cardiologist would do for treatment, he should have been carrying a method of reaching that person, ie a cell phone. He could then have called his own doctor to arrange for an ambulance pick-up at Rockville Center. Then he would not have needed to alert the LIRR crew and avoided the whole problem.
I agree. The LIRR did what it was supposed to do. Once the passenger had refused treatment, and signed a release, there was no reason why the train shouldn't proceed along its route as per routine.
Now, I would argue that the the LIRR was under no obligation to inconvenience other passengers by running express to a stop of the man's choice. If that is what he wanted, a private ambulance or even a taxi (remember, he's refused treatment, and even wants to stay on the train) could take him from Jamaica to Rockville Center. And there is no shortage of taxis at Jamaica Station.
In the end, all worked as it should.
Now, I would argue that the the LIRR was under no obligation to inconvenience other passengers by running express to a stop of the man's choice. If that is what he wanted, a private ambulance or even a taxi (remember, he's refused treatment, and even wants to stay on the train) could take him from Jamaica to Rockville Center. And there is no shortage of taxis at Jamaica Station.
Just a couple of technical points, Ron.
Rockville Centre was the next stop on that train. There was no question of changing operations. In fact, had the railroad been able to grant his requesr (I understand it could not because of protocol) everyone would have been less inconvenienced because the train was delayed 15-20 minutes at Jamaica to wait for, and then have a discussion with, EMS.
If you're familiar with the locations of Jamaica and Rockville Centre, a taxi, or even an ambulance, is a terrible alternative to the train, unless, of course, the man needed the life support systems of an ambulance, but in that case, I suppose the issue would be moot.
"Rockville Centre was the next stop on that train. There was no question of changing operations. In fact, had the railroad been able to grant his requesr (I understand it could not because of protocol) everyone would have been less inconvenienced because the train was delayed 15-20 minutes at Jamaica to wait for, and then have a discussion with, EMS. "
The delay was unavoidablle in any case. EMS was called to evaluate the man and determine whether or not he was stable, and whether or not he could give informed consent (and so could legally refuse treatment). EMS was obligated to inform the man of the risks involved, and also to inform him of his right to refuse treatment ( they did so). That process had to happen.
I agree that a taxi would not do as well as the train.
There was an additional alternative that could have been offered. I am not offering my opinion of its worth. It was actually done on the MBTA Red Line:
1)Take the man off the train, and let the train proceed immediately out of the station.
2) Perform the medical evaluation/informed consent etc.
3) Offer to have a police officer drive the man to his cardiologist's office in Rockville Center.
The MBTA did actually do a variation of this for a medical case. NYPD has done so, even driving a man home to Nassau County.
That sounds like it could be a good backup policy. However, in the specific instance, a policy car would have much the same problem, time wise, as an ambulance.
But your suggestion of having the train proceed immediately while the man was evaluated, might have have worked, if he could then have been placed on the next train, which at rush hours, would have been in another 20 or 25 minutes.
Of course, getting him a seat might have been another matter entirely...
But your suggestion of having the train proceed immediately while the man was evaluated, might have have worked, if he could then have been placed on the next train, which at rush hours, would have been in another 20 or 25 minutes.
Of course, getting him a seat might have been another matter entirely...
There are a couple of seats in most cars that technically are reserved for the handicapped. If the conductor of the next train was notified in advance, he could have made one of the seats available.
I'd say the system worked. It wasn't up to the conductor to determine if somebody with chest pains was medically sound enough to ride for 20 more minutes. So the C/O called the PD & EMS, and the situation was sized up by medical professionals.
Of course, if they let the guy ride, even after the conference, and at his request, and he had gone into arrest, his family would have sued the tie-plates off the MTA anyway.
About 6 months ago I noticed a passenger slumped over on a Metra Electric morning train into Chicago. The position of the passenger was ambiguous, as it seemed that she was just reaching down for something, and no one was doing anything about her. After a half a minute of observing her, I decided that there was a problem. I went immediately to find the Conductor, who then approached her and determined that she needed medical help. The train was held at the next station while a medical crew took her off the train. This delayed the train for a while. All in all, I guess this is a story of the system working the correct way, rather than what occurred in Boston.
I would add a congratulatory note to you. You could have just blown it off and gotten off at your stop - but you didn't. Thanks for caring.
Legally, the LIRR must request medical assistance at the next station stop where EMS can respond. A conductor/trainman is not legally empowered to make a medical decision. If they did and the patient died, believe me, his desire to see his regular doctor at his home station would carry no weight with the family (or jury) suing the RR on a wrongful death suit.
EMS, OTOH, is empowered to make medical decisions. If they decide the patient can travel on the train to his home station, and the patient subsequently dies en-route, the RR is off the hook froma libaility standpoint. (I'm assuming the patient doesn't subsequently make an additional request for immediate help)
Rockville Center, no questions asked, none needed either.
The sooner the better, no matter what. If Rockville Center is the next stop and it's that close, it's almost like a one-in-ten-gazillion chance. So I would take the bleeping opportunity, ne questions asked.
It's too obvious to say that there would have been hell to pay if he went into cardiac arrest before RVC. But then there might have been hell to pay if he went to Jamaica hospital and died because the emergency medics there didn't understand his condition.
What would you have done?
It depends. If the person is having minor chest pains then I would continue to Rockville. If the person was nearly unconscious then I wouldn't take the chance. If there was hell to pay with both decisions I would stick with Jamaica
SciGuyTransfer terminal
If the person is in distress, minor or major pains, I would call it in to the dispatcher, and have them tended to by the EMS at the very next stop as soon as possible!! Minor pains can become major ones, and taking a risk like that....going all the way to Rockville just because the pains are minor, leaves the door open to something like what happened to the guy in Massachusetts. Think of what would happen if right after you leave Jamaica, say about in the area of Rosedale, this guy gets dramatically worse, as can be the case in cardiac arrests and heart attacks, and now you are some distance away from the nearest hospital (if near Rosedale the only hospitals near enough are Peninsula in Far Rockaway or all the back to Jamaica Hospital), and now you are in the same position as the conductor on the MBTA train. If the guy dies en route between Jamaica and RVC, and it's found out you were in a position to get him help right then and there in Jamaica before the man's condition got worse, and you didn't and just kept the train going onward per schedule, you're responsible and now you are in the same pickle the MBTA guy is in, looking at pending employment termination, possible criminal charges for negligence, and lawsuits. If you have a chance to have the guy taken care of right there at Jamaica YOU DO IT!! Don't take a risk that can cost someone his/her life, and get you into a mess. If the guy gets aid at Jamaica, gets taken to Jamaica Hospital, and say his condition worsens there at Jamaica Hospital, and unfortunately he dies, his death, if a blame was to fall on someone, is out of your hands and not within your responsibility, and the responsibility for the death would fall on Jamaica Hospital, not you!! You did what you had to do in order to best look out for the interest of the safety of your customer in a time of distress, and at the same time keep the train running onward to its destination. The death would be out of your hands, and in the hands of whomever tended to him at the hospital.
If the guy dies en route between Jamaica and RVC, and it's found out you were in a position to get him help right then and there in Jamaica before the man's condition got worse, and you didn't and just kept the train going onward per schedule, you're responsible and now you are in the same pickle the MBTA guy is in, looking at pending employment termination, possible criminal charges for negligence, and lawsuits.
Before the EMS crew in Jamaica will release the patient to continue his journey, he has to sign a 'refusal of treatment' form stating that he has ben told of his condition, and understands the risks. The EMS crew in Jamaica will also have taken vital signs, made an assessment, and have documented thier findings. There is no way that the patinet can come back to the railroad or to the conductor claiming neglince on their part.
Elias
planning a 3-leg AE trip (4-days). Part of it is 2153 BOS-WAS. Would it be worth it to upgrade to first class for the run? Also, when does the clubAcela lounge open?
Sure, why not? If you've never done it first class, try it.
I enjoy it very much. Thje pampering is pretty good and the hot meals, included, are great.
Of course, having experienced it once, you don't have to buy first class again if you're travelling on a budget. But try it once and see.
IIRC, it would be breakfast/lunch, rght?
I assume your train is travelling in the morning. Yes that would be either breakfast or lunch.
I have not gone in First Class as a passenger but I have gone in the galley before the train left (I was a business class passenger) and I would say it isn't worth it. You get a hot meal prepared before the train leaves its origin which to me is just like airline food. I would only go first if you have one of those free upgrade coupons (which I do and I plan to use it soon).
Oh, the food on Acela is NOT Airline food by any stretch of the imagination. It is much better than airline food. I won't do first class often because I don't want to spend the money, but Amtrak deserves some credit here.
However, I did experience once a meal on the Metroliner First Class that was a cut above the Acela experience. Not sure why...
However, I did experience once a meal on the Metroliner First Class that was a cut above the Acela experience. Not sure why...
Because AEM-7's and Metroliners are the way of the future, maybe? I don't know why they change it as soon as the operation settles down to something good... Acela is the el-cheapo answer to Metroliners. The thing is, given the amount of ridership the Acela is already pulling in, what do you think would have happened if they had gone for a proper, Metroliner-like replacement?
AEM7
Having now taken about two dozen AE Business rides between Boston and NYC, and one AE First, I am of the opinion that an upgrade to FC is worth it only if the train is very crowded. On a crowded train, it can be very noisy, the wait for cafe service long, and same for the rest room.
Then again, on a full FC car, it can be noisy (FC passengers are just as bad with cell phones as BC passengers!), and you can wait for your food to be delivered and the rest room too.
Does the conductor always announce when the train hits 150mph in Rhode Island? Also, is there a speedometer somewhere on the train that you can view as a passenger?
They used to announce it regularly, but now it's "old hat" and I haven't heard it in a while. You can tell when it's at max speed... the seats rattle a bit more :-)
There is a speedometer in the "conductor's closet" in the cafe car, which is usually open. Each trainset has a Bombarider rep on it, who's usually sitting there and happy to show off the toys to those who are interested. If it's closed, ask a crew member -- they'll usually oblige.
This "Bombardier Rep" is paid to just ride the train? That's such an awesome job!
Talk to an EMD rep that sat on the Fs when they first came out. Then tell me it's an easy job..
oren, how did you wind up getting a cupon? Is it one of those "customer service" things?
It's all a question of what you value in life -- well also depends on who's paying for it.
I happen to value my $$ in life. I wouldn't take Acela Express to start with -- I would go Northeast Direct. But that's a personal choice I make.
If I were making a business trip, of course I would be insisting on Acela Express First Class.
I also happen to value comfort, style and class in life. That is why, someday, my girlfriend and I will charter a dining train out of her hometown to go where we're going to live -- probably when we get married :-) I doubt the train would be Amtrak equipment, although I think that Superliners would be good enough, complete with PRR Metroliner-style seats, deluxe bedrooms, etc. However, this probably won't happen until the Superliners are retired out of Amtrak service... in fact, I might have to purchase a Superliner and have it refitted to do it. But then, what's $100,000?
In short: I believe that the Acela Express First Class is not anything which I would even term classy.
AEM7
Here is what I would do: First, ask the ticket agent or reservations how full the train is. If Business is at or less than half full, stay in Business... you will get a "double" seat to yourself, and have the run of the train to wander around.
The one time I tried First, it was comfy all right (and the meal was OK), but I felt like I was in an airplane -- just get up when nature calls then return to your seat. Since FC is usually busy, it's more likely you'll have a seat neighbor if you can't get one of the singles.
Does anyone know what year the 5th track (between the 2 express tracks) at the Spring St station on the Lex was removed?
I believe it was removed a long long time ago, before Spring St was extended southbound (late 40's?).
A long long time ago?
Ha ha Chris. :) :) :P
I could have figured that out for myself. I was trying to find a more exact date.
Is the 4:10 Redbird from Brooklyn Bridge still going? Also, how many round trips does it make? I've looked at the older threads and can't decide if it goes to Parkchester once, turns back and goes to Bowling Green or if it goes to Parkchester, back to City Hall, back to the Bronx again and then returns to the 5 after the second southbound run?
Thanks, in advance.
It's called the 323 job on the 6 line. It's leaves Parkchester at 7:27 pm and arrives at the Bridge at 8:14. Then it leaves Bowling Green at 8:37 pm and arrives at Dyre at 9:30.
Figure if it's the last relay train at Parkchester, it probably leaves Brooklyn Bridge sometime around 6pm or so. I don't know how many other trips this train makes. And I also can't tell you if it's a redbird anymore. My guess is that it's a 62 again.
I would like to know too!! so i can catch it after august 25 on .....
( shoot it on video ) .....
That's it. Just copy those intervals that I posted, and you'll catch that train. Keep your fingers crossed that it's a redbird when you get here.
I think it's still running. I saw an R-33 train with all its doors open on the layup track south of BB yesterday shortly after 3, and someone was up front changing the bulkhead rollsign. I'll bet that was it.
It makes two round trips from BB as a Parkchester local. Then it switches to the express track at BB and runs light to Bowling Green, where it becomes a 5.
Thanks again to those who answered, if anyone knows more, feel free to post or e-mail me.
They should be running the Redbird from the No.5 Line until Sept.6th. However E 180 can send out a R 142 Barbardier instead of the redbird for No.6 Line service.
Today, I had an unexpected day off, so I decided to make use of that and return something to a friend in Glendale. Not working in Manhattan anymore, and now living in Suffolk, I don't get to ride the subway as often as I used to (or want to!) I was just about to get back on the JR Parkway at Myrtle to go home and said "Why am I going home? I should take a subway ride to the city!" I instead continued on Forest Parkway towards the Jamaica El, parked my car, caught a J to Manhattan.
I do take the subway often enough and go to Manhattan often, but it's been a few years since I've ridden the J east of Myrtle Ave. I was amazed at how the neighborhood between Eastern Pkwy Broadway Junction and Myrtle has improved from how I remembered it! They are even doing something with an old theater that I always used to look at, at Madison St and Broadway. The stations also look great!
Anyway, I rode to Canal and then to the Broadway line to check on the mosaic restoration at those stations....coming along nicely. I got off at 42nd St and walked to Grand Central to check out the Elevated exhibit at the museum shop there (everyone should check that out - it's a great exhibit).
I then was planning to take the Lexington Express down to Brooklyn Bridge to get the J back to my car at Forest Parkway when a Redbird 4 Train came in. I was on the R142's plenty of times, so I wasn't really thinking about the trains too much. When the Redbird 4 came in, I was suprised that the railfan window was empty (wasn't even thinking about it as Grand Central was it's usual busy self). I hadn't "rode the window" for a while so was happy. As I speeding down Lexington Ave I actually got a little sad, as I realized that this may be one of the last times, if not the last, that I may ride one of them in regular service, or at least while they are even somewhat common. They are getting fewer and fewer.
By the time I got to Brooklyn Bridge, I didn't want it to end, so I stayed on until Wall Street. I noticed they are doing some work there. (Are they planning to remove the ugly blue tile there, and restore the walls?) When I got off that train I said my "good-byes" to Redbirds, and crossed over to the other platform where I took R142 #7000 (remembered because it's a cool number) back to Fulton.
At Fulton I admired the J/M platforms new mosaics. I've been through there a few times on the train, but haven't actually used the station in a while. Of course, as usual, I lost all sense of direction at that station, and waited on the wrong end of the platform for the J's railfan window. Luckily a M came first to show I was on the wrong end. I boarded the right end of the J back to my car at Forest Parkway....
It's been a while since I have ridden the subway "just for fun". Most of the time, due to time contstraints, it's just for transportation. It was especially fun because I didn't plan for it. I hope I will get a few more rides on the "reds", but I am content that I officially said my "good-byes".....
That's a beautiful story. I'm gonna go riding for fun this evening, and I'm hoping to catch a Redbird 4 up in the Bronx.
i wll be there to shoot as may of em as possible late august into september !! for sure to see to it they are on DVD !!
""I was suprised that the railfan window was empty"" ....you said...
WELL THERE ANINT NO RAILFAN WINDOW ON A R-142 !!! ........!!
That is true. I used to use the 6 every day on Lexington when I was in College. I used to ride the window quite often, as I would usually wait at the end of the platform at Union Square anyway because it was the least busy at rush hour....can't believe that that front view on the 6 is mostly gone.
& all because of the TRANSVERSE CUT OFF VIEW CAB CAR CLUB !!
I HATE TRANSVERSE CABS!!!!!!!
MY MAIN MAN !!! ............good shooting !!
yea !!!
Too bad you didn't ride through the Jorelemon tube. Redbirds always fly through there and it's a ton of fun. :-)
Fly? My 4 train yesterday topped out at 41. That's not flying.
You know, I wanted to add one more thing. I really hadn’t gone through “loosing” a part of my childhood on the subway before, at least not as a railfan. I always liked the subway, and remember the R10’s, R16’s and R27-30’s. But at the time I wasn’t really up on current “subway” events, or even what they were called when I rode them. For all four of those classes of subway cars, I knew them right to the end, but one day I was riding them, and slowly one day they were just gone. I never knew they were going, and by the time I really cared, they were all gone, and thought, “Oh yeah, I haven’t seen them in a while.”
The redbird fleet (and of course the LIRR diesel trains---no more GP38-2’s) are the first class of subway cars that I know as they are on their way out, and it is a big part of my childhood going to the fish.
The Redbirds are cool and all, and I feel bad, but dang, the older guys here must have been near suicidal when the Myrtle Ave El and it's rolling stock went!
I agree. I felt the same way when R10, R12, R14, R15, R17, R22, R27, R30 were retired. I never had the honor of riding an R16 or R21.
I don't think this has been posted yet. If it has then I'm sorry. This was taken from here. Note the cars listed as being replaced...
ALSTOM awarded NYC subway contract
NEW YORK CITY -- The Metropolitan Transportation Authority-New York City Transit (MTA-NYCT) Board of Directors voted yesterday (July 31) to award ALSTOM, in partnership with Kawasaki, a $961-million contract for the design and manufacture of 660 new heavy rail subway cars, ALSTOM said.
The contract includes supply of the cars, spare parts, special tools and training.
The award also includes two options totaling an additional 1000-1040 cars for a total contract value of $2.358 billion if exercised by the MTA-NYCT. The new cars will replace R32, R38, R40 and R42 cars, and give the NYCT additional new cars for expansion purposes.
The 660 cars of the base order will be delivered in a 2006-2007 timeframe. The body shells will be manufactured in ALSTOM's facilities in Lapa, Brazil, and the cars will be built up and tested in Hornell, N.Y., the company said.
This contract announcement follows the $129-million order received on June 20th from the Washington Metropolitan Area Transportation Authority (WMATA) for 62 new cars.
MTA New York City Transit is the largest subway fleet operator and one of the most extensive and complex public transportation systems in the world. Each day, more than seven million people use New York City Transit -- over two billion customers annually.
ALSTOM serves the energy market through its activities in the fields of power generation and power transmission and distribution, and the transport market through its activities in rail and marine, the company said. In fiscal year 2001/02, ALSTOM had annual sales in excess of $21 billion and employed 118,000 people in over 70 countries. In the U.S., ALSTOM has sales in excess of $4 billion and more than 7000 employees. ALSTOM's Transport Sector, with annual sales in excess of $4 billion, is an internationally leading supplier of rolling stock, information systems, services and complete turnkey systems to the rail industry.
August 1, 2002
See a photo of the proposed R-160 HERE!
:)
Is is me or did they just take off the black facing on the R143 and slap a MTA sticker on it? It looks lacking W\O the black face.
Wow! It looks like they're moving the subway to the sky!
:-) Andrew
It looks like the R160's will have half width cabs. I know what that means - railfan windows.
Simon
Swindon UK
The L goes to the Empire State Building?
Unlike the MTA's press release, Alstom's release jibes with what was in the staff summary (Alstom builds the cars, Kawasaki provides technical assistance).
David
Didn't Alstom make the propulsion software on the Bombsuckier R142's?
YES...and the hardware it controls too. Alstom 'Agate.' CI Peter
Sweet mother of god... We're screwed.
Please change those 3 periods into !!!
And Kawasaki will be making the brakes as well?
I have purchased one of the old three digit numberboards from an R-46.
I have gotten most of the silicone adhesive off the back by careful use of a single edge razorblade, but there is still a film that will not come off.
Any Suggestions?
nah. wow how did u get a hold of that??????
i dunno about cleaning it but i remember how to program it
i remember programming the following
F 6AV/CULVER LCL
F to CONEY ISLAND (b4 F used 63rd)
N to DITMARS BLVD
N BROADWAY EXP
H to ROCKAWAY PARK
G TO QUEENS PLAZA
-- to 14ST/8AV
F 6AV LOCAL
F QUEENS BLVD LOCAL
F to 179/QUEENS (b4 63rd)
E 8AV LOCAL
E WEST END EXPRESS
E to CONEY ISLAND
I think you got the wrong impression.
I have one of the car's external numberboards.
It only shows the car's three digit number.
p.s.- the numbers are 4 digits.
p.s. The R46's had 3 digit numbers at one time....which is why this person now owns one of these old plates.
What is this numberboard? Pictures?
The sign that gives the car's number.
You could try some Ronsonol lighter fluid. That should soften up and desolve the adhesive.
Karl, did you get one of the enamel-steel signs or the fiberglass ones. The RSteel signs were put on during the SMS and had silicon. I don't recall silicone on the older, fiberglass signs. BTW: I have number-boards from cars 1054-941, the two wrecked at 179th St.
Steve, I got one of the enamel steel signs. It looks almost like a porcelin finish. It had a couple of bends, but I have carefully improved them so that they are hardly noticeable.
I got 902, which, as you may remember, was the number of my favorite gate car. I may never find a picture of that gate car, but I now have the numberboard from the R-46 that carried the same number for awhile.
Where did you buy it?
I bought it from an eBay seller after seeing a similar item in an auction.
Karl,
Try some WD40. It is very effective on removing adhesive and is better to use than lighter fluid (as was suggested by someone else).
Allan, I will give it a try, although I have already tried alcohol, and also paint thinner with no success.
An old friend here tells me that I should try carbon tetrachloride, but you can't buy that anymore.
I really wonder why I am worrying about it since it is on the back of the numberboard, but the front cleaned up so nicely that I am just trying to complete the job.
Anyone know if the parcel room at Grand Central has re-opened ?
Simon
Swindon UK
I called up GCT info a couple months ago wondering the same thing, and the answer was no. -Nick
There's a parcel check at Penn Station (which I used a couple of weeks ago), if that's helpful at all.
hanks David,will they take a holdall ?
Thanks to Nick also.
Simon
Swindon UK
Your welcome, Simon...I hope Penn Station works out! -Nick
I'm not familiar with what a "holdall" is (is that a British term, or is it just that I don't know much about luggage?). I checked a not-very-large backpack myself; the guy behind the counter just tagged it and put it on a shelf in the back room. The shelves seemed spacious enough, anything that could be considered within normal luggage size should be ok. I think it's $4 a day for each piece, and the counter is open something like 5am-midnight. The parcel check is the same counter as for checking baggage onto a train -- so don't confuse them ;-) -- on the main Amtrak level, towards the low-numbered track end.
Sounds ideal. The reason I ask is that when I come over in November I am thinking of staying at the Plaza Motor in in Secaucus. I have stayed there before. The hotel is very comfortable and reasonable (British term for cheap) which means that I can stay for a week. It does mean catching the 190 bus to the Port Authority but that really is no problem as it runs express and takes about ten minutes even at peak times. The only problem is the last day when I check out at around 8am but I have to leave my bag somewhere in New York as my return flight is overnight, hence the parcel room. Penn Station would be ideal if I fly home from Newark. BTW The James Bond style monorail to the airport is great fun, even worth a field trip:)
Simon
Swindon UK
I'm not familiar with what a "holdall" is
Well, there seem to be plenty of places online selling them. The following one loaded quickly despite my lethargic internet connection and it has a picture...
http://www.mulberry-england.co.uk/store/products/luggage/holdall.htm
This time we look at the life of a railroad wife.
The beautiful bride has a birthday coming up July 31st. For quite awhile I’ve been planning to write a piece about how difficult life in general can be when you’re married to a railroader. This special occasion makes it the perfect time.
While I was young, single and on the extra board, playing the dating game was difficult. Other times it was an adventure. And still other times it was almost impossible. Many a relationship failed because of the job. Some of the girls I dated were not real crazy about me having to break dates or end them early because the railroad called. That made relationships tough enough. Never being exposed to this lifestyle at all could be culture shock. Some girls just couldn’t cut the mustard I guess. Somehow through all of this, I managed to find one that could. It did take years of "conditioning" through years of marriage. And even then, there are still some interesting moments.
I was working at the South Shore in 1985 after getting laid off from the MoPac and was on the Brakeman’s extra board. Much of the time I worked freight but many times I caught passenger. This morning in particular, I was working a passenger run. It was pouring down rain and had rained for a couple of days already. While checking and collecting tickets, I encountered some women riding in the vestibule of one of the cars. This was not unusual as we were overflowing with patronage. As I went through the rounds of checking their tickets, I began some small talk with them. Being that I was single, this was a great way to meet girls. Aside from the fact they were disgusted with having to stand for some seventeen or so miles, they all seemed pretty fed up with the rain.
I thought that perhaps they might appreciate a little positive spin on the weather, so I suggested they try to think of this as being like Portland. Even though it is raining now, when it stops, the view will be spectacular. They all thought I was nuts, but one of them seemed to take a bit of a shine to me. In the next few days that passed, we engaged in conversation aside from the weather. Eventually, I asked her out. Our first date was October 19th. We had a good time on our date, so I asked her out again and again. On New Year’s Eve 1985, I proposed. We had made quite the evening of it along with three other couples, so there was quite the time had. The evening’s celebration included, among other things, the consumption of significant amounts of alcoholic beverages. Hey, three of the other people were railroaders as well, so it was almost required by law.
After I popped the question the beautiful girlfriend asked "Are you drunk?" Of course I was drunk, she didn’t think I would do something like this if I was sober, did she? But I lied and told her no and the rest as they say, is history.
Before we got married, I attempted to explain to her about how railroading really works. I explained the extra board, working nights, weekends and holidays, being on call and having plans changed or cancelled at the last minute. She claimed she understood all this and could deal with it all. If she really understood, she probably would have run away screaming and kicking and had a restraining order issued to keep me away. Instead, she stayed; little did she know what was in store for her.
As a reward for staying, the bride gets to do a lot of things without me. There have been weddings, funerals, parties and the like in which she was my "representative." I always tell her it is akin to the President and Vice President. Whenever the President cannot attend some sort of event or function he sends the Vice President in his stead. Thus far she hasn’t bought into this theory, but one just never knows, perhaps one day….
Being the wife of a railroader can be difficult more often than not. Being the wife of this railroader can be difficult most of the time. I admit to being a pain in the ass, so just couple that up with the uncertainties of the railroad lifestyle. It is one helluva a combination, certainly not for the faint of heart. The bride is of hearty Polish stock though, so she is one tough woman.
After not figuring on working until later (according to the Caller), I have been surprised with an unexpected earlier call on far too many occasions. Of course this immediately changed everything. The bride has responded quite admirably by throwing together a quick dinner while I was getting ready for work. Her ability to adapt to the sudden change allowed me to have many a good, home cooked meal instead of having to stop for fast food on the way to work. This scenario has played out more times than I can remember over the years.
Railroaders are in the top ten for divorce rates. Gee, what a surprise. The uncertainties of never knowing when we’ll go to work, when we’ll be back home and being gone so often has a major effect on marriages. So does missing family functions, events with the kids such as school plays, band competitions, sporting events and the like. Of course, there is that always popular, more. Some railroaders have been known to have a wife at one end and a girlfriend at the other. I have heard stories of some having complete families at both ends of the line. Now that takes some balancing. More than one railroader I have known over the years has been caught when the wife showed up at the away from home terminal to find the old boy with the away from home flame. I have a tough time balancing one relationship and life, how in the world could I have two or more?
One girl I dated some years ago told me she was warned by her mother about railroaders. She said her mother told her that all railroaders have women in every town. I wonder where she heard that one. Perhaps in her younger days maybe mom dated a railroader. This girl laughed it off and stayed with me for a couple of years. Women in every town, eh? I wonder how it was that I missed out on this phenomenon. We wound up going down in flames and yes, the railroad was a factor. But no, it wasn’t extracurricular activities.
But I digress.
I was very unhappy at the South Shore. Wait, let me rephrase that, I was miserable at the South Shore. They had promised I would be running an engine within six weeks after they hired me. Almost a year later and I was still on the ground. When I realized running an engine again wouldn’t come anytime soon, the job search began again. I was searching for a job all over the country. I wound up at a couple of places in New England shortly after the beautiful girlfriend had graduated to beautiful fiancé status. This put a strain on things.
A few weeks before were married, I became another one of the unemployed in the rail industry. This is a really good way to start a new life. We postponed the honeymoon owing to this situation. Several weeks after we were married, I got a call from the Chicago Central & Pacific. They wanted me to come out to Waterloo, IA for an interview. I was off to Iowa two days later. I figured I would be home in a few days. Instead, they put me to work right away, out there. This too was really good for a brand new marriage.
I was stuck out in Waterloo and not able to mark up in Chicago right away. The bride was not at all pleased. Of course I wasn’t real thrilled with the situation either. One day she called the hotel where I was staying in Cedar Falls, IA. I was out working and she talked with the woman who ran the place, a former railroader herself. From what I was later told, quite a bit of venting occurred. The woman at the hotel knew the Trainmaster very well and called him strongly urging they find a way to get me back to Chicago or I would likely be in divorce court.
After a month in Waterloo (with a few days off to get home for a bit), I returned to the Chicago area marking up at Hawthorne Yard. Even though I was back home again in Indiana, I was always gone. They were short of help and I worked constantly. The brand new beautiful bride was now getting a full dose and crash course in becoming the railroad wife. Several times after we went out for dinner and perhaps a movie (after being told I would not work until much later) I got the page to come to work. In a few cases, we were just heading out the door when the phone rang. I began to comment how the railroad gods were listening in, heard us making plans and did not approve. I started to suggest that maybe we not mention anything out loud so the gods could not hear. We should just pass notes instead. Gee, sort of like being back in school again.
Our first Christmas together was a bust. I worked very early Christmas Eve morning, like about 0300. They were planning on significantly curtailing operations for Christmas day so I figured this would allow me to be home for both Christmas Eve night and Christmas day. Instead, I got sick. As the workday on Christmas Eve morning progressed, I felt tired and had a sore throat coming on. We got done at around noon or so. Later that evening we met at some relatives of the bride’s for dinner. That was when it hit me big time. A serious case of the flu knocked me on my hind side. This made for my early exit from dinner and had me sick in bed for Christmas day and the day after. Being that marriage is all about sharing, I shared this flu with the beautiful bride. She got my flu just in time for New Year’s Eve. This probably really had her wondering (if not certain) that she had made a horrible mistake in marrying me.
After about a year of marriage, things at the CCP started going to hell. Layoffs were beginning to occur and the job search began yet again. Before the axe fell for me (or perhaps, on me), I landed a job at the Wisconsin Central, which was on the verge of beginning operations. This had me gone for several weeks to Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, which would become our new home. Several weeks later we sold the house in Indiana and moved to "America’s Dairyland."
Wisconsin was culture shock to her as the beautiful bride was a big city girl having been born in Chicago and raised in the Suburban Chicago area. She adapted well though making friends and becoming active. Even though I was gone a great deal, she was able to keep busy and do things without needing me along. A bowling league and church activities, including choir were some of the activities she took up.
Within a few months I was able to work a regular assignment. This helped make the transition a little easier for her. At first I was on an assignment that had me working ten days in a row and then off four days, every other Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. With this schedule, we were able to do lots of stuff together. However, this job did not last and I wound up on an assignment that worked five days per week with two days off. Eventually I wound up on an assignment that worked six days and was off three. Even with this kind of schedule, I was still gone sometimes when events were taking place.
An opportunity presented itself for us to relocate back to Chicago in 1991 as Metra called me for an interview. I wound up getting hired there and returned to the Chicago area. However, it was just I going back for the first couple of months. The bride was stuck in Wisconsin alone for that time period. We sold the house and moved back to the Chicago area staying with father and mother of the bride until we found a home to purchase. A second move some three months later into our own place back in Indiana occurred and we have managed to stay put in the same house since then.
I have moved around to a couple of other railroads since we returned, but have managed to stay in the Chicago area. However, I still have been gone a great deal of the time though.
As you can see from our example, it is certainly not easy to survive as a railroad wife unless you are tough. And the example of my career is tame compared to some. I knew one Engineer who moved something like thirteen times in twenty years, with all but two of the moves being with the same company. I worked with a Conductor who moved nine times in ten years, again with the same company. In this guy’s case though, he had no choice; it was either follow the work or starve. He would get cut-off at one location and go wherever he could hold at least a slot on an extra board. Big seniority districts have a way of doing that to employees.
It has become worse today on the railroads that have merged into the mega-systems. Employees may now have to cover seniority districts that encompass a six or seven hundred-mile radius. I know of several who have had to jump all over these districts just to keep working. Can you imagine what this can do to a marriage?
This type of activity has been going on probably as long as there have been railroads. And it was worse in one way before 1969 when the hours of service law changed. We used to have a sixteen hour work day. This meant a minimum of four more hours per trip gone from home. If you worked the road, that meant an additional eight hours per round trip in some instances. The guys that were the old heads when I started railroading talked of always working sixteen hour days almost constantly in the 1950’s and 60’s until the law was changed.
Some railroaders I know have left the industry owing to marital problems caused by the job. Many of these guys were those that entered the industry after being married for awhile. Some women simply cannot adjust to the lifestyle and it causes tremendous difficulties. Others remained in the industry but changed crafts to give them more of a semblance of a regular life. Not all crafts in the industry work like us in transportation.
I know many railroaders who have had multiple marriages, oftentimes because of the job. There are some women who simply cannot handle such a lifestyle and wind up either leaving or throwing the old boy out. I have been fortunate though as my beautiful bride has stayed with me despite all this and despite me being me. Is it love or insanity? I’m hoping for the former but betting on the latter. She always tells me she is on a mission. I guess dealing with all of this will guarantee her a spot in heaven. She has already lived through hell.
And so it goes.
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
Visit www.Railroad.net and http://diesel.freewebsitehosting.com, both now hosting the latest Hot Times on the High Iron columns.
Again, Mike, thanks for posting Tuch's Hot Times on the High Iron. It's certainly not the story you find in the choo-choo books. This is real life on the rails.
Today, at Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex, I noticed that right past the station I saw a 5 train parked on a track. At first I though it was a 5 on the City Hall loop lead, but then realized it was parallel to the regular tracks. When I got home, I looked at Peter's track book, and it showed that there were two stub tracks there. Were they meant just for lay-up tracks, or were they originally planned to go somewhere?
Not sure, but I think they were always lay-up tracks for BO trains. They used to connect with the southbound express tracks just north of the Fulton Street station.
They were primarily used for lay-overs and at one time did connect to the south-bound express tracks before Fulton St. Evidence of this can be seen by the large space between the track and the tunnel wall. This was also(maybe) used when some local trains operated late nights to South Ferry by using this connection instead of the switches by the old Worth Street station.
Interesting, if that connection was still there, local trains against the wall at BB would have been able to continue towards Fulton, like you said. With that switch gone the "wall" train has no choice but to go into the loop.
As a small note, a switch can be rebuilt there but since TA had built a storage shed just behind the bumber posts, this will no longer be possible.
They are storage and layup tracks. In Peter Dougherty`s track book it states that," the switch to the southbound express tracks was removed due to a superelevation problem" Note the degree of curvature of trackage coming into Fulton St. and you can understand why.
The reported $961 million for 660 cars works out to $1.45 million per car. That's less than the R143s, which were close to $1.9 million. It's cheaper than the R68s, which cost about $1.5 million when converted into 60 foot equivalents and inflated to current dollars. I guess the savings of mated sets, plus a little competition, offsets all those extra features on the new cars.
If you assume a 40 year life (about the number of years for the cars being retired), and project a 6,700 car fleet (with an extra 433 "cars" added to account for the 75 footers), the TA needs to buy about 168 cars per year. At $1.45 million, that puts the annual replacement cost at $242 million. With the subway system up to 1.4 billion rides per year, that puts the cost per ride of replacement car purchases at about 18 cents. Increase the lifespan of the cars to 50 years, and you're down to 14 cents per ride.
The subway doesn't cover the cost of the right of way, but neither do autos. If the fare is jacked up to $2.00, as predicted, and costs are kept reasonable, it looks like the subway will be covering not only its operating expenses but also its car purchase expenses.
This should be reported to all those anti-subway folks.
Great post Larry. MTA did a pretty good job with this order...
Nice to know the sky isn't falling after all...:0)
(Nice to know the sky isn't falling after all...:0)
As you know, I can be a little bit cynical, having suffered through public employment for almost 20 years. The proof won't be in for a decade, but so far this is a pleasant surprise. The high bidder with the low MDBF was rejected.
Of course the winner was in with Al D'Amato, but I wouldn't put it past Al to "get paid" by someone who would have one anyway.
BTW, someone doesn't want me to read your posts. Almost any time I click on one, Netscape generates an error and throws me out of Subtalk. Except this time. Pehaps because we agree.
Very interesting. It's nice to know that the MTA did something right and efficient....I don't want to mention the LIRR debacle....
Chris
...subway doesn't cover the cost of the right of way, but neither do autos...
Don't gasoline taxes, sales taxes on auto sales and the income taxes of motorists more than cover street and highway maintainance costs?
(Don't gasoline taxes, sales taxes on auto sales and the income taxes of motorists more than cover street and highway maintainance costs?)
Leaving aside the income taxes, which everyone pays, the situtation is this. At the state level, motor vehicle related taxes and fees cover the cost of road maintenance, with profit, if debt service is excluded. At the local level, even with parking revenues thrown in, it doesn't.
But that's just maintenance. The biggest cost of motor vehicles is all the space they take up, space which is more valuable in urban areas and most valuable at rush hour. The fact that the land is so expensive explains why we aren't just building more highways to meet peak demand.
The biggest cost of motor vehicles is all the space they take up, space which is more valuable in urban areas and most valuable at rush hour. The fact that the land is so expensive explains why we aren't just building more highways to meet peak demand.
Yet that urban real estate is so valuable in part because of road access. Determining whether motor vehicles get a "free ride," so to speak, is ultimately a question that cannot be answered.
The subway doesn't cover the cost of the right of way, but neither do autos. If the fare is jacked up to $2.00, as predicted, and costs are kept reasonable, it looks like the subway will be covering not only its operating expenses but also its car purchase expenses.
Of course, that's a big if. Subway operating and capital costs are likely to rise more than expected if the overall inflation rate increases significantly beyond its present low rate. Okay, it looks as if the United States may be in for an extended period of low inflation, but there are various wild cards (case in point: the fall of Saudi Arabia) that could lead to higher inflation and, in turn, to higher subway costs.
The contract to build the open-cut tunnel for ESA in Sunnyside Yard has been approved by the Federal Transit Administration. Evidently the preparatory demolition is complete and bids will be taken this month. The FTA approval to begin boring the Manhattan-side tunnel is still pending.
(The contract to build the open-cut tunnel for ESA in Sunnyside Yard has been approved by the Federal Transit Administration. Evidently the preparatory demolition is complete and bids will be taken this month. The FTA approval to begin boring the Manhattan-side tunnel is still pending.)
Now that New York taxpayers have helped to finance the infrastructure of the rest of the U.S, it will be intersting to see what happens when New York comes in for money for East Side Access and Second Avenue. The two would drain all "new starts" money for the next decade. My guess is the suburbs get their improvements, and the city does not.
East Side Access might not be a diaster for city residents --- if at least the Stubway portion of the Second Avenue is built and MetroNorth to Penn implemented on a far grander scale than now considered.
Alternatively, if the boring in Manhattan is not approved, I suggest an LIRR terminal at 21st Avenue, and the building of the new subway yard in Sunnyside connected to the 63rd Street tunnel. Some trains could start in the yard and proceed through the tunnel, and LIRR riders could board them.
What can I say? Even after the federal govt. OK's the beginning of construction and the money comes through, you still think the sky is falling...
OK.
h ye of undeserved faith in the crooks running this country.
Fact: in recent weeks the VTA (San Jose Transit district) twice tried to sabotage previously agreed steps toward electrifying CalTrain. The public excuse budget copnstraints even though the monied had already bee committed. That's right they wanted to rescind capital funding to patych operating deficits which is precisely what happened to the 2nd Ave monies in the late 40's. So when you have SEEN the sky falling why are you supposed to believe it isn't happening?
(What can I say? Even after the federal govt. OK's the beginning of construction and the money comes through, you still think the sky is falling...)
As I said in an earlier post, I attended a Transporation Research Board conference in January.
There I found out that the LIRR to GCT and the Second Avenue Subway would absorb 100 percent of all projected "new starts" funding for a decade. How do you transit fans in the rest of the country feel about New York getting 100 percent of all the improvements, even after the federal govenment "generously" rebuilts after the WTC.
And that (the Republican) Congress has now taken over authority for allocating 50 percent of this money, voiding whatever formulas and approvals the FTA has. There was a lot of talk about the importance of transit in rural states in the conference.
And that the Administration wants to cut transportation spending overall, now that deficits are soaring. Is that highways being cut?
And that for the first time, the FTA had been told to go ahead and allow planning and preliminary constructrion without a full funding agreement. That is with no guarantees.
Yes we will get something, but I wouldn't be so confident that subway riders will be included in the "we" part.
As I said in an earlier post, I attended a Transporation Research Board conference in January.
There I found out that the LIRR to GCT and the Second Avenue Subway would absorb 100 percent of all projected "new starts" funding for a decade. How do you transit fans in the rest of the country feel about New York getting 100 percent of all the improvements, even after the federal govenment "generously" rebuilts after the WTC.
It sounds to me as if New York's cost structure for transit projects is way out of line. Yes, under the best of circumstances it'll cost more per mile to deep-bore a Second Avenue Subway than it would to build light rail along an existing ROW in a low-density Sunbelt city. But I somehow suspect that the cost of tunnelled heavy-rail construction in New York is a lot more than similar construction elsewhere, including the much-derided LA Red Line.
With better cost controls, New York might not need to take such a huge share of federal transit funding.
(With better cost controls, New York might not need to take such a huge share of federal transit funding.)
I think there are two factors here. The need to keep everything running and no one bothered, and the need to pay everyone off in the construction industry -- including those not working at the site.
If NY had leaders willing to ram the Second Avenue past NIMBYs, and break the back of the parasites, construction would be as fast, as cheap, and as safe as the WTC recovery.
Who do we have? Pataki, Bruno, and Silver.
And a Republican Administration in the White House which is not inherently transit-friendly.
If NY had leaders willing to ram the Second Avenue past NIMBYs, and break the back of the parasites, construction would be as fast, as cheap, and as safe as the WTC recovery.
I'd hestiate before using the WTC recovery as an example. Sure, debris removal went very quickly, and of course the restoration of the 1/9 line is moving at a remarkable pace (Although does anyone want to bet that there won't be some last-minute snag that delays resumption of service? I don't!), but the reconstruction of the site itself already has that unmistakeable stink of New York incompetence.
"As I said in an earlier post, I attended a Transporation Research Board conference in January.
There I found out that the LIRR to GCT and the Second Avenue Subway would absorb 100 percent of all projected "new starts" funding for a decade. How do you transit fans in the rest of the country feel about New York getting 100 percent of all the improvements, even after the federal govenment "generously" rebuilts after the WTC. "
Projected by whom? Mitch Daniels, the White House budget director? You're not evaluating what you hear. The Bush Administration makes decisions, then fits projections and research to its ideology, not the other way around. If Bush turns out to be a one-term President, those projections get tossed out the window. They're meaningless.
"And that (the Republican) Congress has now taken over authority for allocating 50 percent of this money, voiding whatever formulas and approvals the FTA has."
Congress isn't Republican. The Senate has a one-vote Democratic majority, and there is a very real possibility that mid-term elections this November will produce Democratic majorities in both houses, or at least cut the Republican Majority in the House to the point where they are much weaker.
"There was a lot of talk about the importance of transit in rural states in the conference. "
And what of it? New York's projects aren't screwing anybody, Larry. That's right-wing Republican (and Larry Littlefield) issue.
If Denver wants to expand light rail services and Kansas City wants to start it, the New York subway will not be the obstacle. That's bullshit.
At one time, people were looking at Boston's Big Dig and saying "well, that's it, we'll never be able to fill another pothole again."
Are ou sure you wouldn't rather be in a private sector job, Larry. Your grousing implies that your government job may be more stress for you than it's worth...
New York's projects aren't screwing anybody, Larry. That's right-wing Republican (and Larry Littlefield) issue.
If Denver wants to expand light rail services and Kansas City wants to start it, the New York subway will not be the obstacle. That's bullshit.
If there's only X number of federal dollars available for transit projects nationwide, and New York sucks up almost all of the money, then yes, it would be an obstacle for Denver or Kansas City.
"If there's only X number of federal dollars available for transit projects nationwide, and New York sucks up almost all of the money, then yes, it would be an obstacle for Denver or Kansas City."
That's a statement which never conforms to Congressional reality. That, of course, is a two-edged sword.
Only if Congress and the White House do not increase the dollars X+Y, which could very well happen in the near future.
MTA is doing exactly what it should be doing. If other cities want to start a new project, fine. Make deals with the highway lobbies, spread a little pork around. It has been known to happen.
Increase the transit pot, or replace elected officials with new ones who will increase the pot. Come November, we may be doing that.
(There I found out that the LIRR to GCT and the Second Avenue Subway would absorb 100 percent of all projected "new starts" funding for a decade. Projected by whom? Mitch Daniels, the White House budget director?)
No, projected by the FTA based on its budget request, which Mitch Daniels will probably want to cut, and which the FTA is planning to defend by spreading funds around the country rather than concentrating them where the transit ridership and need is greatest.
(If Bush turns out to be a one-term President, those projections get tossed out the window. They're meaningless. Congress isn't Republican. The Senate has a one-vote Democratic majority, and there is a very real possibility that mid-term elections this November will produce Democratic majorities.)
I agree. The one hope to get federal money for both Second Avenue and East Side Access is for the Democrats to take Congress in 2002, and for Bush to think he can take New York in 2004. I hope the MTA keeps up the timetable to start Second Avenue construction in 2004. Unfortunately, our Democrats would gladly trade these improvments away for a few more units of subsidized housing, and our Republicans won't want the Second Avenue as long as the suburban improvments get funded.
(New York's projects aren't screwing anybody, Larry. That's right-wing Republican (and Larry Littlefield) issue. If Denver wants to expand light rail services and Kansas City wants to start it, the New York subway will not be the obstacle.)
You miss the point. I'm concerned that pork distribution will screw New York's projects. But we'll see. Hopefully the a-holes won't have the board closed down by 2004, and we'll see if $15 billion in federal money comes through. Except for 9/11, when I guess they had to do something, and the critical supporters of local politicians, I see the federal flow going in one direction -- out of NYC.
And by the way, the main point is about Pataki and the State of New York. They mortgaged the MTA to the hilt in good times, leaving no ability to borrow more to finance these vital improvments with state borrowing. Now I'm afraid they'll blame the federal government for not funding them and say "oh well." It wouldn't be the first time. We've seen this movie before, and can only hope that the ending will be different.
"No, projected by the FTA based on its budget request, which Mitch Daniels will probably want to cut, and which the FTA is planning to defend by spreading funds around the country rather than concentrating them where the transit ridership and need is greatest. "
Bush Administration-era agencies, including FTA, don't project anything without Whiyte House approval. Granted, Bush may want to cut further (to zero!), but what you saw at the conference already had somebody's OK at the White House - or you would not have seen it.
People at the State Dept, DHHS and Treasury (except for Greenspan) have already been publicly rebuked for showing any independence. The CDC's new designated director gave a speech which stated, "I will do whatever the President tells me to do." Nothing more is to be expected from this woman. That is her sole mandate.
FTA is well aware of this.
Bush Administration-era agencies, including FTA, don't project anything without White House approval. Granted, Bush may want to cut further (to zero!), but what you saw at the conference already had somebody's OK at the White House - or you would not have seen it.
You can be sure that the proposed Department of Fatherland Security will be under Bush's thumb, and ... oh wait, I meant Department of Homeland Security, dunno what I was thinking of.
I sympathize with your sentiment. I think we may be on the same page on that one...
That's harsh. They liked airships and autobahns too more than anything else and funded them that way. Now we KNOW AMTRAK is in real trouble.
The Senate has a one-vote Democratic majority, and there is a very real possibility that mid-term elections this November will produce Democratic majorities in both houses
I doubt that there will be a net Democrat gain in the Senate. There are only six seats that could be termed as really marginal and the Democrats are defending five of those. With a Republican President with the greatest popular support since Eisenhower (despite the recent decline in opinion polls), I somewhat suspect that the result may be one or two seats towards the Republicans.
Bush wont have that favorable oppinion for long
What makes you so sure? Okay, we sure can hope that, but public opinion can go up as well as down or even just be completely boring and stay the same.
Economy
It seems to already be bouncing back from the latest mini-slump.
(Economy -- It seems to already be bouncing back from the latest mini-slump.)
Reality is somewhat worse. Thus far, aside from job losses related to the WTC-airline-tourism disaster, which has no political implications, this has been profits recession. Businesses, stock prices, and the rich have been squeezed, but working people have not. Given that the long term labor market situation is shortage, businesses have been reluctant to let workers go even as demand falls. The result is low prices and low interest rates, leading to high buying power. State and local governments have exhausted reserve funds and borrowed to cover up their fiscal problems, rather than raising taxes, laying off workers, and slashing services.
However, I'm afraid the standard of living could start to fall. U.S. consumers can't go on spending more than they earn, and U.S. businesses cannot continue employing more staff than they need as their cash situation deteriorates. Hope it doesn't happen, but if it does Bush is toast.
"With a Republican President with the greatest popular support since Eisenhower (despite the recent decline in opinion polls), I somewhat suspect that the result may be one or two seats towards the Republicans."
George Bush, Senior, had similar results during and after the Gulf War, and was unceremoniously dumped at the next election. George Bush Jr. may have been the right guy at the right spot for Sept 11's tragedy, but that popularity does not automatically protect Republican Senate and House candidates - especially with the economy in a slide and corporate misdeeds condoned until very late by the White House.
I think there's an excellent chance the GOP will lose ground, significantly, in the November elections.
But projections in the end, are all rubbish. The voters will do whatever they want to do.
It OKed building one side of a tunnel. Do you want to ride through a one-ended tunnel?
That reminds me of the grand announcement someone made here early last summer that the Manhattan Bridge walkway had been opened. Then why couldn't I find an open entrance at the Brooklyn end? Because it was only open halfway across from Manhattan! I'm glad I didn't start at that end. (The Brooklyn end opened a few weeks later.)
Contract bidding has been announced on the Manhattan side as well. FTA approval is expected shortly.
"Do you want to ride through a one-ended tunnel? "
No. I think I'll wait until they finish it.
:0)
They should first make sure the tunnel wasn't already built in the '20s:
http://enquirer.com/editions/2002/07/29/loc_abandoned_subway.html
Very nice set of tunnels there. I hope Cincinatti gets to use them.
A co-worker of mine saw this month's subway pictute in Bill's calendar. He grew up riding the Queens IND and wan't too sure about the Flushing Line.
I had to explain to him the older BMT route number was 7 was the Franklin Ave El. Therefore stainless steel equipment on the 7 was a BMT service. It was possible in the 50's to have a BMT number and an IRT number routes.
Did any of your co-worker asked about the R-11 with the "7"?
I decided to follow David Greenberger's sage advice about local and express trains. While he was referring to NYCTA trains, I have achieved a result on this trip, on the Broad Street Subway in Philly, which is consistent with his advice.
I began my trip at Erie Station, where a local train was first to arrive at the island platform on the southbound side. I got on.
As my local train pulled into Susquehanna-Dauphin, an express train rocketed past, doing MAS.
We stopped at Cecil B. Moore, then Girard. At Girard, an express stop, there was the crowded express train at the platform! People hurried off my train to squeeze on, despite the fact that only one more local stop was left to be skipped.
The express left first; then my train pulled out. We stopped at Fairmount. Next is Spring Garden, also an express stop - there was the express again, sitting at the platform!
(Isn't this a little like the turtle and the hare?)
Bottom line - the people on the express, many of whom had to stand, got to City Hall maybe 45 seconds ahead of me - and I had a seat the whole way.
Maybe if this race had started in Olney, the express would have gained some sustainable advantage - don't know.
If this happens again, I'll take note to see if again, David Greenberger's theory holds up. I suspect it would. Of course, if the express comes first, I'll get on that one (if I see an empty seat).
Thank you, David.
Oh, don't give me credit -- it's how I learned to ride the subway. Except on the IND, that's how most subway riders seem to deal with the issue.
Yesterday around noon, I got on an SRO 1 train at 86th to go to 18th. At 72nd, I decided to get off and wait for an express -- not to save time but simply because I felt like riding an express. A few others got off and peered up the express track, but they all got back on. Only one other person stayed on the platform to await an express.
(How did the timing work out? About five minutes later, another 1 local pulled in. A minute later, a 3 express came. I got on. It passed the second 1 at 59th and was held at 42nd for a connection with that same 1. I transferred to the 1 since 18th is a local stop. So, by getting off at 72nd and waiting for an express, I stood on a hot platform for six minutes and reached my destination five minutes later than I would have had I stayed on the first 1.)
Thats the way it works on the Westside. I have my connections on my run timed out. My first trip out of 242 St IF I'm on time I make the connection at 72 Street. Uptown First trip No Connections. Second trip connection at 96 Street. The trip up on the second I connect at Times SQ and 72 Street.
The trip up on the second I connect at Times SQ and 72 Street.
With the same express or with different expresses? The local-express differential between those stations is only about two minutes, and I don't think the 3 has any scheduled two-minute headways.
It has long been my contention that it takes a greater intelligence to navigate bus and subway systems than to drive an automobile. One must use a number of algorithms to calculate the most efficient means of getting from point A to point B, as these local vs. express discussions prove. Of course, the fact that I don't drive does not color my objectivity.
What about the east side?
Expresses outnumber the local and are more useful the 4 and 5 combined less shorter headways than the 6. So things are different there.
With my recent experiences going NB, it's not much better. I need to go to 68th Street. When the express at Brooklyn Bridge gets to Grand Central, we either pass one 6 and so I'm one 6 ahead of the 6 that was there at Brooklyn Bridge or I end up waiting for the same 6 that was at Brooklyn Bridge. Going SB, I pass the 6 I was originally on and possibly another one or two. What happened to Lex? Now, most of the time, I just take the 6 one stop to 59th and transfer to a W to get back to South Brooklyn.
Yes the same train because Times Square holds the No.3 in the station for a few minutes.
You would have liked "silly Express service on the B'way" this morning. Queens bound R arrives at 14 St with a Q(local) across the platform. Normally, if this connection happens it is with a W. Lots of people bailed for the express (saves about 1 minute to 34 St). The Q stopped opposite 23 St AND 28 St. First into 34 St --- the local.
The A train seems to be just as bad with two General Orders on CPW, skeletonized tracks at 86 and 59 St. During my first run, I connect with a C Express at 125 , pass his A leader at 86 St, then leave 59 before it arrives to make a connection. Next week, the madness should end.
I take it you're on the B or D. Yes, CPW locals are often faster than expresses even without skeletonized tracks.
But -- bad news -- the C/D local/express switcheroo was extended another month.
But -- bad news -- the C/D local/express switcheroo was extended another month.
Isn't that "What's good for the C is good for the D?"
I assume that's a joke, but I'm afraid I don't get it.
What's good for the passengers, if four distinct services are running, is to have one local service to each of 6th and 8th and one express service to each of 6th and 8th -- that is, unless you have reason to believe that the overwhelming majority of CPW express passengers want 6th and the overwhelming majority of CPW local passengers want 8th (in which case the late night and weekend service patterns make little sense).
Does anyone know on how PATCO would have reached Camden after it connected Route 42 from Route 55 when PATCO proposed a line along Route 55 in the mid 1970's.
Any information on subtalk is greatly appreciate on this topic.
The original Gloucester County PATCO extension proposal was along the PRSL ROW through Woodbury. One of the factors involved in the decision not to build it was that local politicians bought up land where it was assumed stations would be built in anticipation of making a killing re-selling the land to PATCO.
You can find additional detail in the book "Trains, Trolleys & Transit" by Gerry Williams 1998.
You'll also find loads of photos from all the SEPTA divisions.
There were two proposed routes to Gloucester County in the 1975 Mass Transit Study: the Route 55 alignment and the PRSL alignment. Both routes would have split off the main line at Division Street in Camden, following the existing freight line up to Morgan boulevard (where a station was proposed). The two alignments split from here. The route 55 alignment would have followed I-76 on the west side, had a series of flyovers at Route 130, I-295, and the southbound lanes of Route 55 where it would have continued between north and southbound lanes until it met up with the PRSL line near Glassboro. Stations were planned at Kings Highway, Bellmawr, Deptford Mall, and Delsea Drive. In addition, a shop and carhouse was planned at the interchange between Routes 42 and 55. The PRSL route had stations planned for Gloucester City, Gateway Boulevard, Woodbury, and Mantua Boulevard. Both alignments had common stations planned at Morgan Boulevard (Camden), Pitman/Sewell, College, and Glassboro.
Today I observed a barge with about 60 Redbirds leaving 207. I caught it again as is passed under the GWB and again as I was taking the ferry to Staten Island. These are not coincidences of course, I was chasing the barge! But what is a railfan to do? I probably snapped that photos of these 'birds as they got closer to their watery grave. I will post pictures on my website, www.nyrail.org sometime this evening. Oh yes, this morning I spotted R142 set 7015-7020 at Fresh Pond. How Ironic. And another thing, today was the first time in my life that I spped foot on all five boroughs in a single day.
I'll let you all know when photos are posted.
-Dan
www.nyrail.org
Shudda been more about fifty but the Weeks barge had a really nasty draft...backhoe has a tough time knocking carbodies off to Neptunes Fleet. Joisey divers are bitchin cuz Redbirds are not reefing off the coast. CI Peter, fixin the 'Last of the Redbirds.'
Actually, I amend my estimate to an exact 50 as I counted the cars in my photos. arrangement is as follows: 21 fore, 21 aft, 8 starboard. If you don't already know or didn't figure it out, they're stacking the cars 2-high in the 21-car sections.
-Dan
Been there, done that, check out 207th YAHD every morning. Remember the Kursk, K19-Omega-the end. It's all over...Redbirds were good teaching platforms...239th will soon be all Silverbirds. 'Twenty one fore, twenty one aft, eight starboard.' Dis aint' the navy...it's dah Bronx...it's TA. Thankyou Redbirds, thankyou for your kindness and patience, thankyou for restoring my confidence in my skills. May you all rest in peace at the bottom of a big blue ocean nice and neat and clean and degreased. CI Peter
Pardon me, did I insult your intelligence? You're right, it ain't the Navy, but it sure ain't the Bronx either. 207 is where they load it and a barge is a boat and that is how directions are called. And another thing, it ain't the TA either, it's Weeks marine, and they run the boats.
No my friend...you did not insult my intelligence...this is not the Navy...and I'm no sailor. Port, starboard, left, right, 1 3 5 7 2 4 6 8 L1 2 3 4 R 1 2 3 4. No sun or stars...where is the moon? So I do my inspection reports counting upon my fingers: eight wheels on a car, sixteen brake shoes on a Redbird, eight tread brake shoes on an R142, #2 is cab on a Redbird, R#1 is cab on a R142. It's funny that when I make acurate wheel gauge measurements, Redbirds usually have lower numbers and R142s higher numbers.Dis is dah Bronx and we get our pizza from 241st Street. CI Peter
Fianlly got 'em all up. http://www.nyrail.org/nyct/subdivisionA/redbirds/barge/.
-Dan
You did good work!
I missed them by a day... I can't believe it. Wed, I came across the Univeristy Heights Bridge and noticed the barge was loaded and ready. My friend and I ( he took the Tribute In Lights Photos), made our way to 215th Street to see them. We only got half of the cake. A Barge Of Trucks disappeared into the horizon shortly after 3PM....
-Stef
WELL I HOPE YOU TRANSVERSE CAB - R-142 NEW JUNKERS -CAR CO
ARE AS HAPPY AS A PIG IN MUD !!!
ALSO I BET THERE ARE SOME WHO ARE GETING SOME KIND OF A SEXUAL
THRILL AND PLEASURE OUT OF THIS AS WELL !!!!
shit .......!!!
You think we are out here jerking off to trains?
Take a look at the proff.
GET OFF ME
WIFE
But if you wish, I will not lose an ounce of sleep knowing redbirds are 66 feet under.
i meant those folks who BOAST OF PERFECT AC on those r-142s ...!!
thats for starters !!!
now if folks want me put on my boxing gloves ..........>>>>lol !!
anyway besides of showing your COMPETER LINK skills??.....
....what else do you have to show ??...........hmmmmmmm!!!.....???
how bout some good old low Vs pictures you took or something ????
( not some barge shot ) ..........!!! how bout a good train shot &
that for example ??............eh ??............lol !!
My man! My thoughts exactly. FUCK the MTA!!! They can all go to HELL!
The MTA is doing the best that they can. GOODBYE REDBIRDS, WOOHOO!
goodbye rail fan window !!....................ugh !
my apology for the bad language ( 4 letter word ) ...U ...know...
i should have not let myself become so angry that i would not see any
redbirds this august / setember 2002 !
it just keed me off seeing those classics being dumped !!
maybe if hey were cut up i would not feel so bad ( recycle )
again my apology fof "" flying off the handle ""
@ ( man do i love dat rail-fan window ) .....!!
I didn't think they would be reefing them as quick as they are. This is the second barge this summer. It looks as though I'll never see another R-33 single-line car on the "7" (sob).
Don't worry, The R-62A's will be off the 7 when Corona shop is made R142(A) compatible.
man will i ever be glad to see the survivors
might kiss every one of em !!
Wow. Nice shots. Looks like you chased them in both a boat and a helicopter ;-)
I took some of the "arial" shots from the George Washington Bridge. Whew, what a hike! And I took some shots from the Staten Island Ferry, so it was a multimodal chase.
-Dan
You are REALLY dedicated. And it paid off. Those photos taken from the boat (A BOAT!) in the Harlem River are amazing. Thanks Skipper.
You have made some wonderful photos. I like the ones loading the barge with the trees in the foreground, and also the one with the fish in the picture. Guess he wants to get a good seat, you think?
Elias
Anybody know where they were headed? NJ, Delaware, or one of the Carolinas? I know it sure as hell ain't Bowling Green...
South Carolina.
-Stef
Today while listening to Hot97, the midday DJ made the following remark: "I would like to give a shoutout to the riders of the L train. I was on the new L train today and it was nice and spacious. Also the 4,5,6 lines are getting the new trains as well. We are riding in style".
Also radio commercial for Polytechnic U in Downtown Bklyn:
C/R: This is Borough Hall, transfer to the 1,2, and 5 trains. Transfer here for a good education. This is a Bklyn bound 4 train.......(plug for Polytechnic U starts.)
Interesting stuff.
The Cingular commecial mentioned a few days ago (fellow gets long set of directions with multiple changes on IRT then decides to hail a cab instead) is now running on local Boston stations.
Here are some pics from my Boonton Line Trip.
The Soon to be closed DB Draw
The New Montclair Connection
New Great Notch Yard
A soon to be felled classic Erie RR Signal on the old Boonton Line
NJT Comet III cab at Hackettstown
FL-9 side at New Haven
Just about the oddest Amtrak Consist you'll ever see. Its the Morning "Fast Mail" train to Springfield. Metroliner cab-Amfleet-P42-Mail-Mail-Mail.
NJT Comet 1 Cab at Hoboken
Lo-light shot of PRR PL's at Newark
I have many more aside from these. If anyone has any requests just ask and I'll put them up.
What is the future of the booton line? Will it be abandoned when the new Montclair connection opens? In the new MC ROW a old freight ROW?
A BNSF conductor (freind of mine) was visiting here today, and so I asked him about that sign I posted the other day. (About Remote controled locomotives)
He said that the Engineers refused to do that.
So BNSF gave the task to the Conductors.
So that locomotive working the yard is being run by a conductor, not by an engineer. I guess the engineers did not like the idea of working on the ground, getting their hands all mucked up with the couplers and the brake pipes and all. Besides, it gets *COLD* out there in the winter time.
Apparently, the FRA signed off on it, saying that they were not running a locomotive, but rathere were working an 'electronic device'.
Elias
About Remote controled locomotives
About time! About time the U.S. railroads achieved the Canadian operating ratios. Then we can really beat the hell out of their crappy industry.
So that locomotive working the yard is being run by a conductor, not by an engineer.
Okay, I see accidents coming. Am I right in thinking that most conductors have been engineers at one time? If a guy has inadequate train-handling experience, I see fun coming. Shoving that train around ain't easy even with a model set... to be able to do it on the ground is even harder (you can't feel the train). Even engineers have to go through training. Now, conductors... well I have nothing against them, but to have them run trains without training them as mainline engineers first!????
Well, we are not talking mainline here.
This is making up trains in a yard, so 5 to 10 mph max. Hell you can see if the engine is moving. (Unlike being up in a darkend cab at night with the wheels slipping.)
The idea of remote control is that they need only one man to make up a train. Clearly that one man (person, Please) has to be on the ground. Throwing switches, rapping knuckles, pulling hoses. He can climb up on the tail of the car that is moving. All yard switching is done from the tail end of the train anyway, the engine has got nothing in front of it except some trespasser trying to take pickkkk....... splat
The conductors (some of them at least) on BNSF are cross trained and can run the locomotive, like when the hog has to go to the biffy.
Elias
It's my impression (I realize I'm inviting flamage here) that the BLE refused to go along with remote control and the UTU agreed to do it (seeing the handwriting on the wall), so perhaps BLE railroads have conductors operating the remotes and UTU railroads have engineers doing it.
that the BLE refused to go along with remote control and the UTU agreed to do it
I think that is generally true. I have heard that BLE has a problem with it.
I think that is generally true. I have heard that BLE has a problem with it.
That is what my conductor friend said.
He also said they may be changing their minds on the subject.
Oops, too late, we got the job now.
Elias
Has anyone went to where they are dumping the redbirds and have pictures of them underwater?
you probably would not be able 2 see them because they are polluting the ocean !!
That too
the polluted water rust dimmed out water ....
if you do scuba it could be dangerous big time right ??
just to go see where some redbirds should have been cut up and the
metal re-cycled or used for storage barns museums diners etc ??
???????....................!
When the goverment dumps in the ocean....it's "good" for the enviroment.
The fish seemed to be doing fine without our "help", so I don't see how doing this with the redbirds this is better than recycling.
In 2053, a nuclear submarine is scuttled over what just so happens to be where the deadbirds were dumped, along with the R-38s, 40s, 42s and 44s. The ship breaks up and the radioative fuel settles in with the remains of the subway cars. At the same moment, Earth just happens to be passing through an unusually dense concentration of cosmic rays.
The interaction between the cosmic rays and the nuclear fuel cause the remains of the ditched cars to reassemble into hideous mutants -- R22s with slant fronts, 75 footers with railfan windows, 44s with bench seating and axiflow vents. Along comes a hapless school of giant squid that were just looking to mate, and they get trapped in some of the operator cabs. Before you know it, the mutant cars are assembling into the most hideous consists ever seen -- worse than the smorgasbord mixes of the 1970s.
Now semi-sentient, determined to mate and hell-bent on exacting revenge against the decendants of the geniuses who did away with railfan windows and chose the cheesy red color, dozens of these mutant consists from hell make their way back to NYC. Once in Jamaica Bay, they find their way into a sewer line that takes them to an abandoned subway station at Pitkin Av & 76th Street, where they smash through a concrete wall and head into Manhattan via the Fulton Street line. Along the way, some of them create bizarre connections between Fulton and the Franklin Shuttle, then racing up the Brighton to create a connector between DeKalb and Rutgers. They start creating a new East River tunnel, and run into the ruins of the Manhattan Bridge (that collapsed in 2019 and had been laying at the bottom of the river because NYDOT was still working on the south side). Sensing a kindred spirit in the long abused and maligned bridge, the trains and the bridge unite and destroy Hylan-Moses Plaza (erected in 2025 at the former site of 370 Jay Street.)
The trains terrorize all the trunk lines. Many railfans, who flocked to the subways to take pictures, end up being assimilated by the foam the trains produce. The army tries to appease the trains with Amazon sex kittens with route bullets on their breasts and the subway map tattooed on their backsides to no avail. They eventually discover the great-grandson of the creator of "Redbird Red" is in charge of receiving the new R-246 car order, and go completely berserk. They spray foam on all the new cars that destroy the transverse cabs and cover them in the 1970s blue and silver color scheme.
They are about to convert the 63rd Street LIRR tunnel for subway use when they are finally stopped by an old man who was a foamer as a teen railfan and happens to have an ancient R-1/9 brake handle. He raises the handle over his head while tossing garlic cloves and old posters of Miss Subways at them. They give up their rampage and head back to Brooklyn, where they congeal into a mass that solidifies and completely fills in the Sea Beach cut.
The final scene is of beautiful flowers blooming and small woodland animals frolicking about along the LRV ROW that is put in over the Sea Beach, with a streetcar passing and clanging its bell.
this is sick yet cool. interesting story.
Heehee. I thought we could use a little levity, so I just went to town twisting some of the discussions that keep coming up over and over. Be afraid of computer nerd railfans waiting for huge database imports to complete on hot, steamy DC August Fridays. Be very afraid.
Jimmy
just to go see where some redbirds should have been cut up and the
metal re-cycled or used for storage barns museums diners etc ??
And would have cost gadzillions of dollars for aspestos abatement!
: ( Elias
yassir
I have seen no pictures from the dumping of the redbirds off of the Delaware or Carolinas' Shore. But there are pictures of the PATH K cars on the Sea Girt Reef off Northern New Jersey.
NJscuba.net has a site on the Sea Girt Artificial Reef, and actually acknowleges that they are PATH cars and not NYCT trains.
On the other hand, Mr. Herb Segar seems convinced that they are from Philly's SEPTA system, too much Nitrox I guess. Still they're great pictures and show just how well preserved they are.
I'm still waiting for NJ to get it's act together, get it's thumb out of it's arsche and allow some R33s to be dumped on one of the reefs up here, which would make them more accessible to possible former commuters who may want to visit their old steeds in their pastures (errr... abysal plains).
And I'm still up for a Subtalk trip to visit a newly dumped bunch of cars. So long as I have about a month to complete training (I have no Idea how long advanced scuba courses take), we could even charter a boat to visit a newly dumped bunch of Deadbirds, undoubtedly a couple of divers around here could also be interested from a Non-Railfan POV. Right now my plans for completing training by the end of the month have fallen apart, my dive partner decided she didn't have the money, but this would get me started right up again. Anybody out there intersted?
And finally, Nitrox is a diving gas mixture, not Nitrous Oxide, but instead a higher concentration of O2 molecules to N2 molecules, it allow shallower, longer endurance dives with less fear of The Bends.
This summer, I've noticed that many BMT-IND subway cars have only one of two HVAC units working. Both blowers are on, but one blows hot air. My home line is the < Q >, so I'm noticing it mostly on slant R-40s.
Has anyone else noticed it? Do any of the operating or maintenance personnel on SubTalk have any insights (I've got my own ideas as to the reason, but I'd like to hear from others first)?
David
I thougnt when the ocean was polluted with redbirds you transverse cut of car club members would be happy as a lark !!!
( whine bitch and moan about your AC & weak AC ) !!!!!!!!!
....@... SO IT WAS NOT JUST THE REDBIRD HATERS AFTER ALL ???.......!
eh ??.........!
I'm talking about slant R-40s and other BMT-IND equipment. The Redbirds have nothing/zip/nada to do with this conversation. Although some BMT-IND cars have transverse cabs, transverse cabs have nothing/zip/nada to do with this conversation.
Let me ask the question another way: Does anybody who actually rides the New York City subway system on a regular basis, besides me, notice a rash of "half-hots?"
David
I don't know if it's geographically catching, David, but I've noticed that an increasing number of MBTA Green Line Type-7s are exhibiting this phenomenon this summer too.
And the LIRR as well. Could be some kind of energy conservation program.
Well of course the LIRR always has plenty of "full-hots."
Not R-40's, but I'm primarily an A Division guy (though I do get around). I think I've gotten a few R-142's -- I haven't put my hand up to the vent, but one end of the car is hot while the other is cool. Sorry if that doesn't help.
I have been noticing blower failures altogether on R38 on one end of the cars. The R68s have been OK in regards to AC, I encountered one car in two weeks where the blowers failed, and one car for the whole pick with an AC Compressor related failure. On a related question of Air Conditioning, I hear an A/C type whine when starting the equipment on the R68s and wondered if they still have DC blowers anymore. The Pitkin R32s have this too as of lately.
NYCT has been replacing DC-powered blower motors with AC-powered ones (with inverters) -- less maintenance-intensive. I believe the R-32s and R-68s have been done by now. Perhaps "Train Dude" or someone else familiar with the maintenance end of things will elaborate.
David
I hate to ask, but does it always seem to be the #1 end of the slants that re 'hot'? If so, I could hazard a guess as to why.
I think we're thinking on the same wavelength here. Frankly, I haven't been paying attention as to which compressor's not functioning (both blowers are working), but it wouldn't surprise me a bit to find it's the #1 end.
David
In which case, it will be the #1 end of married-pair type equipment and the exterior-capable end of transverse-cab type equipment. (And if it's any help, I ALWAYS make sure they're on)
What would that guess be?
If one had guess, I'd have to think that it's because the train operators and conductors are always playing witht he controls for the #1 end.
That's the reason I was thinking of -- heck, I even think about it in the middle of winter when I board the first car and don't hear the blower running above my head.
How big a concern is it from a Division of Car Equipment perspective, and does it truly have the effect I think it has (and Alex L. seems to think it has)? I know RTO rules prohibit cutting out all or part of the HVAC system at any time while the train is in passenger service, but I also know the rule is roundly ignored by the crews in cool or cold weather and I never see it enforced by supervision (not to say that it isn't -- I just don't see it).
David
Unfortunately some now just stick stuff in the crew cab air vent.
Yeah, but those are usually the ones that have had the vent closures ripped out, so that there is no possible way to limit airflow.
I do not understand the post. Redbird tech has easy flip down circuit breakers to interrupt HVAC heating coils...R142 requires concerted effort to access panels and drop breakers which come up on maintainance screens. One new mod to R142 transverse cabs is to cut the overhead HVAC discharge over the T/O position. Sometimes, you can find me standing on the other side of the transverse cab, arms held up 'In Grace,' sucking up every molecule of cold air my body can absorb. Ahhh to be absorbed by the Borg...physical ailments gone and thoughts 'collective.' My hearts out for every T/O and Conductor sans HVAC or a fan....cuz I know what hot is for eight hours. Just don't bitch to me...undercar service in the barn is one 'step from Hell.' Gimme Siberia in short sleeves. CI Peter
I'm talking about BMT-IND equipment, the R-40 to be specific. The cars have two HVAC units, either of which can be cut out without cutting out the other, and that's what some Train Operators tend to do in cool or cold weather, even though it's against the rules.
David
And to think ... back in the days of "exposed neck-cutter fans" and the only "air conditioning" you got was your trusty door clamp, a cab window that wasn't unopenable and GOD's graces, we were grateful for any moving air we got. Coat/jacket for winter, blanket for summer if we got a 42. :)
I hate to ask, but does it always seem to be the #1 end of the slants (or any others for that matter) that are 'hot'? If so, I could hazard a guess as to why.
David,
I was on a Slant on the N two days ago, and i experienced this half hot phenomenon. So no, it's not only you.
Rich
There are two blower/evap units but they share a common freon
loop. If you're certain that the blower on the "hot end" (heh
heh heh) is actually running and moving air, but it is hot, while
the other end is cold, then the only explanation I can think
of is a bad expansion valve or liquid line lockout magnet valve.
On the R-40 (my primary bone of contention here), there are two compressors. On a "half-hot," only one of the compressors would be working.
David
Oh, for some reason I had my mind stuck in the A division!
In that case, it's probably just been cut out by the crew.
THAT was my point, my friend. Cut 'em out in the winter, they don't work right in the summer.
David
Actually i had to cut out 3 today. The condensation was POURING all over the floor and deemed a slip hazard.
Believe me David, you WERE NOT the only one!! lol While deciding to work some overtime on the "E" Wednesday, numerous R-32 trainsets had massively hot cars. I had to work on 2, and one train of R-32s that night got taken out of service at Parsons because half, and yes I do really mean half (5 of the 10 cars) of the consist suffered from hot cars. Lately I been noticing this kind of thing on the "E" and the "A" (R-38). Sometimes if you reset the breakers (sometimes you'll have to be prepared to reset multiple times) you'll get the A/C back, and sometimes it comes back better than ever. Sometimes, unfortunately, resetting does absolutely nothing, and you're left to work on, and the people are left to ride on, very very VERY hot cars. Guess was all better start packing cold drinks for the trip, huh? lol :-)
Air conditioning reliability on the Jamaica R32's is awful. I spent the whole summer on the E in '99 and '00, & part of the summer in '01. Part of the problem is that the cars just can't handle the load. The heavy ridership, the hot air rushing in at stations as the doors open on this all underground line, especially at the terminals at Parsons & WTC, don't allow the cars to cool down. On more than one occasion in '00 & '01, upon arrival at Parsons I would take my train to Jamaica Yard. As I walked thru the train at the terminal, most cars were not up to task in terms of cooling. Guess what? By the time I got to the yard and walked thru the train once again to get off, most cars were fine since they were no longer under stress to cool. Now the yard car inspectors get on and find no defect and the cycle resumes the next day...........This year, especially since we've had so many 90 degree days, a/c problems are even more prevalent. Unfortunately when the RCI's do their a/c survey, if half the car is cool and half the car is warm or hot, they are told by TA management to consider the car acceptable. They are not shopping cars which are half hot, they wait till both a/c units are blowing hot air. Now the TA will deny this, but that is the reality.
6996-7005 have entered service on the 5.
7016-7020 have arrived at the East.
Breaking Cars Assignments Down It Should Look Like This -
The Deuce
6301-60 (60 Cars)
6411-30 (20 Cars)
6431-35 (5 Cars)
6466-70 (5 Cars)
6476-80 (5 Cars)
6501-65 (65 Cars)
6576-6760 (185 Cars)
6766-70 (5 Cars)
6781-6800 (20 Cars)
6826-55 (30 Cars)
Total Cars In Service As Of Now - 400
The Five
6361-6410 (50 Cars)
6436-6465 (30 Cars)
6471-75 (5 Cars)
6481-6500 (20 cars)
6566-70 (5 Cars)
6761-65 (5 Cars)
6771-80 (10 Cars)
6816-25 (10 Cars)
6856-75 (20 Cars)
6951-60 (10 Cars)
6971-80 (10 Cars)
6991-7005 (15 Cars)
Total Cars In Service As Of Now - 190
Redbirds will continue on both lines until they are phased out.
Coming Soon - 7006-15 (?).
-Stef
So what does this mean for the 2.2 or 3 more sets of r142s.Wasnst 6816-6820 on the 2 for a while
IIRC, 6816-20 only got as far as testing mode on the 2.
Keep in mind that the cars are specifically assigned to each line, but it is not impossible for the trainsets to operate elsewhere. Once in a while I might see a #5 R-142 that becomes a 2. The opposite is also true. Some 2s become 5s (R-142s that is), but I don't see that as often.
-Stef
On the 5's that become 2's, have you noticed if the announcements are up-to-date? I once rode a 2 that became a 5 and, to my surprise, the announcements were up-to-date (even though that same train running on its home turf has never heard of the W).
Hmmmmmmmmm.....
The announcements on the 2 sound the same way as they've always been, regardless of whether or not it's an R-142 #5 plying the rails on the West Side.
-Stef
Yep that is true, you saw what trainset I had this evening, (hot off the presses). But the trainset was still making the same old 2 anooucements..............
Gosh! What luck. I couldn't believe you got Cars 6996-7005 on the way down to Flatbush....
-Stef
Stef...
That is impressive. I have the exact same numbers, WITHOUT looking at your figures...I guess since I am near those lines, I live by them, whatever comes my way, I record it...lol.
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"This is a Wakefield-bound 2 train...Stand clear of the closing doors, please!"
I agree! I live by the el, and record history (in my head) as those cars are making their way up to the barn for the first time. I'd swear without bragging, that I have a photographic memory of everything coming up and down the line. 25 Years of living by the el will do it to you.... LMAO!
-Stef
The No.2 Line also has cars 6831-6850
That's right.
SubBus got 6996-7005 today, the newest R-142 operating set to join the ranks. What luck! It is also one of those sets that an identity crisis - it didn't want to be a 5 today, so it assumed the role of the deuce.
-Stef
I've seen a R142 car being delivered on the trailer passing by Van Cortlandt Park around 10 PM on July 26. I assume this car is in service? (It was too dark and moderately distant to look at the car #)
July 26th? I don't think it's in service yet. It's probably in the testing phase. Could you see a Car Number?
-Stef
At least one cars a night, sometimes 2 or 3 pass by there around that time, usually 10:30. The plant is getting 8236-9 ready. It will be nice to note 8200s will not burn grids anymore.
Shades of the past.... GSB, have you operated the new and improved Signal Dolly as of late?
-Stef
I broke it in, she seems to be borrowed for garbage trains now. Good riddance to those decrepit singles.
Me Stupido.......what is a 'signal dolly?' CI Peter
"Dolly" delivers supplies to the Towers. Grounded Shoe Beam would know first hand about The Signal Dolly as he has operated it on numerous occassions. It is a specialized work car which must be hauled by former passenger cars (converted work motors) as it has no motors of its own. You can find it at 207th St Yard with Redbird Work Motors.
I was trying to find a picture of it, but I have been unsuccessful.
-Stef
Someone shot my rear end on the way to Corona in the last year prior to getting the cars not good enough for the fish.
And they're going to scrap the old fashioned way? Go figure....
-Stef
Seems a shame to scrap them. I hope they keep one or two for the museum fleet. BTW, thank you so much for sharing that sound byte of an R-9. It doesn't get any better than this :o)
It doesn't get any better than this :o)
It could.
R9 #1
R9 #2
R9 #3
R9 #4
R9 #5
R9 replacement
R9 replacement 2
Wow, that is really cool. How do you do that? Was this recorded on a fantrip? Thanks!
Grooooooooooovvvvvvvy Oh Man what a sound those were the days to bad I dont remember them :0( and Im at the age of 30 sigh.
Well guys Right next to the R 40m From Bridge crash ,(They Replaced the front with a Slant R40 Nose).There is a one car R 32 Guess whats special about it? It has Conductor Controls on BOTH SIDES Its a prototype for a transverse R 32!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All of you who work In Coney Island Go check for yourself!
In which shop is the R-32 transverse prototype in? I gotta see it for myself!! What's the car number of the R-32 if you know?
How in the world did they manage to do that?!?
-Stef
They had an AWFUL LOT of time on their hands and needed something to do!! lol :-) So in came a little creativity, some elbow grease.....and VIOLA!!
I think you meant "VOILA!" Or did you mean that former Twins great (and NY Met) Frank Viola helped with the job?
Bring a camera to work!! I gotta see this!!
For those of us who don't work in transit, please explain why this is significant. Thanks.
You don't have to work in transit for it to be significant.
The point is that the R32 is configured with a cab in the opposite (diagonal) corners. One cab has T/O and C/R controls, the other C/R controls only. To have C/R contols on both sides at the same end of the car for older equipment is something to talk about.
It has to be an experiment of some kind.
You mean the car in the Coney Island had two C/R booths, one on each side of the car interior? Wow.
That is how I read the posting.
I don't know if they put in another cab. I think they just installed a door control panel.
I can hear the complaints from railfan window fans now: Et tu, R32? Then fall railfan!
:-) Andrew
I think of two things when I read this.
1)Can you say OPTO? We could have more cars available for it.
OR If It Doesn't Get Off The Ground
2) We'll have another car 6429. 6429 was the R-16 that was modernized, and nothing became of it. It got scrapped before it got on the road.
-Stef
I am hoping for number 2. Rather lose one subway car than all the railfan windows.
I am sure the interior of this thing is going to be really ugly if it ever makes it onto the road.
Stef, are you saying thet you support OPTO?
Peace,
ANDEE
Absolutely not. I just feel there has to be a reason for having a second set of controls installed in the car. It makes you kind of wonder.
-Stef
What was done to R16 #6429?
The car was given a futuristic rebuild,which never got off the ground. It had the look of an R-42/44, new doors, new side windows, a single end route sign, etc. 6429's end was totally modified, no sprung gates, new headlight arrangment, a storm door that opens inward rather than sliding. Perhaps, they could have done all the R-16s like that and the fleet would have been that much better.
-Stef
I wonder if there are any pictures of 6429 with the mods? You wouldn't perhaps be confusing it with R-10 3192, would you?
No, he's not. That R-16 did indeed get rebuilt. It was a prototype for a project that never happened, when the CORE (Car Overhaul, Rehabilitation & Enhancement) program started circa 1980. CORE was the precursor to the famed GOH program later in that decade, after the capital program was significantly expanded. Under that capital program, enough cars were purchased to replace the R-16s as well as the R-10s (and later the R-27 and R-30 fleets).
David
thats not true. The TA replaced 5 differrent contracts[R10 thru 30a]with the R68/68a contract.That seriously reduced the size of the B division fleet to a point where as now there is a car shortage.fleet shrank from over 6000 cars to somewhere in the vicintiy of 5,500[give or take].not only that,but cars from the R32 thur 46 were lost due to various reasons and not replaced...
How is what I wrote not true? I said the same thing! The only thing I DIDN'T mention is that there were more cars retired (even accounting for the difference in size between the old and new cars) than purchased ("love9400" is correct in that regard). At the time, riding was on the decline, the GOH program was coming to an end (and thus the massive "floats" of additional cars to support the program were no longer needed), and it was determined that the amount of service then required could be provided without the R-30/R-30A GOH cars (which it had been expected would be around for a while). And, in fact, NYCT was able to provide that amount of service without the R-30/R-30A GOH cars, but was not able to increase peak service in any meaningful way without them. It's been said that the R-143s are belated replacements for the R-30/R-30A, and in a manner of speaking that's correct.
David
The R68/68A contracts replaced all R10, R16, R27 and all but 110 R30 cars. These later R30/R30A's were retired without being replaced by anything. Their retirement was never planned when the R68/68A contracts were issued.
thats what I've been saying.. the T.A purchaced 625 cars to replace almost[if not all]double that amount[550 R27/30/30A 400 R10 200 R16],not to mention what was lost to wrecks/incidents/scrappings due to bodyrot and so on from the other R units.....
does it have a side window?
If the former is nicknamed Frankenslant, what should we name the latter? Ambidexliner? Transversliner?
Wow! I was there not too long ago. I know there are a bunch of 32's there (most signed as "E", getting new floors. I I looked into one and it was completely stripped; even the seat removed, and only the metal supports for the floor. It's like a total rebuild.
But I didn't see antything like what you're saying. They cut out a new window on the opposite side?
Does anyone know if there are any R-32's still in existance with the original ceilings and front roller signs? Surely, one or two must have escaped the rebuild.
none exist
when i shoot video of the LIRR how far do the electrics go??
what zones should i pay for etc??
how far will i go to with the MU cars that is ....etc??
and how many lines operate the MU electric lines ??
how long would it take to see all of the electric only lines ???
just want to know so i can plan where to shoot railfan video ....
thnakz if anyone can e mail me or post this information here !!!
Most of the lines are completely electrified:
Post Washington
Hempstead
West Hempstead
Far Rockaway
Long Beach (no, not the Queen Mary)
Babyon
Brooklyn line (Jamaica to Flatbush)
Some others are only half:
Port Jefferson branch only to Huntington
Ronkonkoma Branch only to Ronkonkoma
Diesel only areas:
Huntington to Port Jeff
Babylon to Montauk
Ronkonkoma to Greenport
Jamaica to Long Island City
Mineola to Oyster Bay (one electric a day goes to East Willison where third rail ends)
Between Hunterspoint Ave and Jamaica, you will get a mix of both as a lot of the diesels terminate there rush hours, and of course non stop electrice to Penn Station.
THANKZ !
that is what i wanted to avoid, the diesel only areas :
like you said .........
Huntington to Port Jeff
Babylon to Montauk
Ronkonkoma to Greenport
Jamaica to Long Island City
Mineola to Oyster Bay (one electric a day goes to East Willison where third rail ends)
downloaded the post will use it like a map
much appreciation for the info. !
Westbound deisel trips often have the foamerview
?........??.........foamerview ....???.....
if i may ask what is that please the word foamerview ..
.....thankz
Cab cars, but without the railfan window which is covered up by the notorious metal sliding window plate which is mounted on the door leading to the engineers cab compartment.
ANOTHER EVIL STRIKE BY THE TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB CO !!!
( why do they always win ) ................thankz for the horrible info anyway...!!!
terrible !!!
but you can see out the back of the train because then the cab is open
Actually I've enjoyed the "rear" railfan window on the M's quite a few times. Not bad, especially when the train is speeding along.
Hi, Salaam,
what zones should i pay for etc??
The LIRR is better photographed via auto, because planning the connections can be be a bear. During off peak, most branches, except Babylon and Port Wash, are hourly, the last two half-hourly, though not necessaily clock half-hour.
Of course, lines where multiple branches merge are busy, even in off-hours: Jamaica-Long Beach via Atlantic (more westerly) Branch is much business than usual until early September because the Montauk Branch in that area is fully or partially closed at all times for complete track replacement. You should see that track! Concrete ties and rails so huge (152 lb. or heavier) that it looks like the old Atlas Code 100 HO track sections!
Likewise, New York-Jamaica-Hicksville is busy all times. Flatbush Avenue is only half-hourly currently.
But, to answer your question, to avoid bankrupting yourself with individual tickets, and especially if you're shooting over more than one day, you might consider buying a weekly zone 10 ($62). Purchase the ticket for Penn-Ronkonkoma.
In theory you are only supposed to use that ticket for one ride each way each day, but who's to know? You will almost certainly be challenged eastbound if you are on another branch than the ticket says, but the main reason for this is to make sure you know you're on the "wrong" train. You say you are going to Babylon/Huntington/wherever "for convenience"--i.e., you're meeting someone, going to a friend's house on your day off--that kind of idea.
A really cranky conductor could, again in theory, lift the ticket (for multiple riding, not wrong branch), but such &%$^%$!! usually only do that to hassle kids using their parent's ticket to go in the City on weekends. (Ticket needs to be signed in your own name--that's how they get the kids).
Actually, it would probably be a real good idea to contact LIRR public relations first to tell them your plans. The are often receptive to people who might give them good publicity. Especially because a lot of engineers are really cranky about people at the railfan window and will chase you away, even though I think they're not supposed to.
Also, end cars are often closed off-peak, especially at the west end.
Yeah, permission/permit would be good if you can get it. The TV crew I went photographing with used their permit to bull their way in to photograph out the front on the Brighton and Franklin Lines. Who says hippos don't have railfan windows? :)
But, to answer your question, to avoid bankrupting yourself with individual tickets, and especially if you're shooting over more than one day, you might consider buying a weekly zone 10 ($62). Purchase the ticket for Penn-Ronkonkoma.
In theory you are only supposed to use that ticket for one ride each way each day, but who's to know? You will almost certainly be challenged eastbound if you are on another branch than the ticket says, but the main reason for this is to make sure you know you're on the "wrong" train.
A really cranky conductor could, again in theory, lift the ticket (for multiple riding, not wrong branch), but such &%$^%$!! usually only do that to hassle kids using their parent's ticket to go in the City on weekends. (Ticket needs to be signed in your own name--that's how they get the kids).
Are you sure about the prohibition on multiple riding? The LIRR says that weeklies (and monthlies) are good for "unlimited" travel during the indicated time period. I suppose that's a matter of interpretation, but I see that as meaning you can travel as many trips per day as you want, just like with an unlimited MetroCard.
I occasionally use my Medford monthly to travel from Patchogue or, less commonly, Stony Brook. Not once has a conductor on an eastbound train noted that I'm on the "wrong" line. It's possible that things are different with weeklies, as conductors might figure that holders of those tickets are less familiar with the system (whereas people with monthlies can be presumed to know what they're doing).
Are you sure about the prohibition on multiple riding? The LIRR says that weeklies (and monthlies) are good for "unlimited" travel during the indicated time period.
You're right, Peter! From the web site:
Good for unlimited travel for a seven-day period from Saturday through the following Friday. Ticket is non-transferable and may be used only by the person who first presents it for travel.
They've gone back and forth on this. At one point they were telling you that anyone in your family could use your ticket anytime. Now it has to be the person who signed it. For a long time, they enforced the "one round trip a daily" by punching every ride.
I'm glad they've gone back to unlimited.
you can travel as many trips per day as you want, just like with an unlimited MetroCard.
Well, not quite like an Unlimited MetroCard. Governor Pataki said you can pass your card around to anyone, just so you're not all riding at the same time.
For a long time, they enforced the "one round trip a daily" by punching every ride.
Nowadays they seldom punch the tickets at all. I was very surprised Thursday morning when the conductor came around punching the August monthlies; before that, it had been at least six months since the last punching, on the Ronkonkoma/Greenport line at least.
>>>Nowadays they seldom punch the tickets at all. I was very surprised Thursday morning
when the conductor came around punching the August monthlies; before that, it had
been at least six months since the last punching, on the Ronkonkoma/Greenport line
at least. <<<
On the PW branch they're diligent abt punching. My last 3 monthlies have gotten punched.
www.forgotten-ny.com
after reading all of the threads ....i guess as long as my zone is covered by the unlimited zone weekly ticket i should be allright to
shoot video & i even remember some motormen inviting me to shoot with them when the first car was supposed to be locked off etc....
i got some questions to ask about metro north if anyone knows some info in this ....
much appreciated for all of your help .....i love new york !!
home sweet home & my birthplace 11 3 51
Each month they're supposed to have two or three designated punch days. The purpose is to have the conductors occasionally handle the tickets, to help deter fraud.
During off peak, most branches, except Babylon and Port Wash, are hourly, the last two half-hourly, though not necessaily clock half-hour.
Actually, the Port Washington line is a great line to railfan, especially if you don't have too much time. That one is one of the first you should do. It's all electric (seeing you are into that). It has nice station buildings, fairly frequent trains, and the Manhassett viaduct is a must see/photograph!
The Port branch can be glimpsed here...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/pwbranch/pwbranch.html
i did not have any problem with shooting on the lirr....
as long as the conductor took my PAID ticket &walked away fom me .....
...no problem at all ..another conductor dug the idea real good !!
again thankz for da' info i will load this page down put it on my laptop
for sure 2 use it when i stay in a hotel in hempstead ..
Did anyone board the first car of a sb "1" train at 125 St this morning at around 8:00am?
Uh oh. Did someone chase you away from the railfan window?
LOL
No. I threw someone off the train when they tried to.
Well that was mean. :-(
I went into the Coney Island Terminal men's room this summer and noticed that the old urinal/trough was no longer there. It was replaced by the usual human type urinals. When did the old trough become de-installed? I always loved that nightmarish thing. Spooky and disgusting. It was always an integral part of the Stillwell experience, like the scenes of bloody murder in the wax museum. Another piece of history bites the dust.
Ya' think maybe heypaul has it installed in his bathroom?
Alan Glick
The trough has been gone for a few years now.
Peace,
ANDEE
You mean there was an actual trough there? In this day and age? Wow.
It reflected the mass usage nature of the terminal.
Similarly, at it's height, Stillwell had multiple banks of turnstiles. IIRC, two long and one short bank facing Surf Avenue, a short bank facing Stillwell, and a short bank facing the Mermaid Avenue buses.
After Stillwell, I wonder what was the second biggest single station in terms of facilties?
I recall reading somewhere that there was a lower level with turnstiles as well. Is my recollection correct?
If you mean Stillwell Avenue side (which is Lower than the turnstiles for Surf), then yes.
There was also a big bank of turnstiles for the lower level on the Surf side, west of the upper level turnstiles.
Where were the staircases? I noticed a few weeks ago, coming down from the F, that the passageway narrows. Only the left half is open; the right half leads to a garbage room. But the door to the garbage room was open and I saw a staircase leading down. Was that it? The Q is similar.
Yes, that was the location. I don't remember it being used used 1960 or so.
Are there any other visible remnants that you know of?
If it hasn't been obscured by demolition at Stillwell, the depressed passageway connecting the platforms with an entrance on Stillwell is still there. It is directly underneath where the elevated passage connecting the West End platform turns toward the current Surf Avenue entranceway.
But many many features have been obscured so that you would never know there was a lower level, including that the ramps from the Sea Beach, Brighton and Culver platforms all had diversions to access the lower level. Now these former accessways are no more than jogs in the ramps.
Ir is possible that, in the course of demolition, that evidence may show up for the sharp eyed.
Very few people seem to remember this lower level. Several subway historians have disputed with me that it ever existed. But I used them many times--some details of things may slip or get distorted in my memory--but not that. I ain't that senile yet. (Watch it, guys--I heard that snicker).
The last year I can be sure that the lower level was open was 1957. I think there was some use up to about 1960.
I *wish* I had a photo.
I'll probably be at Stillwell tomorrow, and thanks to the shuttle bus on the W, I'll be able to scurry around outside without paying an extra fare. If I see anything, I'll get a picture.
If you are going to take a picture of the Stillwell Avenue bathroom all I can say is that you are a glutton for cheap thrills. I hope the pictures you take are anything but the toilet. The best thing we could for that is blow the damn thing up.
>>> The best thing we could for that is blow the damn thing up. <<<
Due to the heightened alertness of our homeland security forces, do not be surprised if there is a knock on your door in the middle of the night. If we see no posts from you for 100 days, we will assume you are being held without charges being filed as an enemy combatant. :-)
Tom
No, I'm looking for evidence of the lower level.
But since you asked:
Oh the humanity!
No, I'm looking for evidence of the lower level
I wish you all good luck with this, since the reconstruction might alter the area for keeps. All that was clearly left of it the last time I could take a peek was an area apparently used for some kind of storage or maintenance.
I've looked (not exhaustively) for survivals of the level myself, but had no access to areas that I hope may become visible during reconstruction.
I looked where you suggested, on Stillwell underneath the W staircase. There are two garage doors there. That makes sense, since the lower level seems to have been converted to a garbage room.
(According to sidewalk markings in the area, there will be a new fare control area on what is now the sidewalk right in front of those garage doors.)
I'll briefly describe the way it was, to help you look.
On the Surf Avenue side, there were two wide banks of turnstiles, side by side. The wider of the banks (on the right--east) led up the ramped floor to the four platform entrances, as now.
On the left (west) the turnstiles led either levelly or perhaps on a slight decline to the passageway which opened to entrances for Sea Beach, Brighton, Franklin and Culver only (not West End, which had a street staircase before my time.)
The current "stationhouse" area on the far right side was always there, and its turnstiles were available 24/7/365.
I already mentioned the entrance from Stillwell.
From the three platforms with LL access, each one had a jog in the middle. The ramps continued down to what was then the upper (full-time) level. On the right at this little landing area were staircases, usually chained off, that led down to the lower level.
If you know how the staircases are at Jamaica Station LIRR, where one staircase at each platform splits half-way down for access to the station house or the street, this was very similar.
In my memory, the lower level was often used at busy times to speed exit from the platforms. This channeled crowds more toward the Stillwell Avenue side of the station. I only have one clear memory of the lower level turnstiles being opened for entrance.
Happy hunting!
Thanks. All that's obviously visible now is where the staircases went down from the platform ramps from the Brighton and Culver, especially the Culver -- the jogs are still there.
DO NOT BLOW UP THE TOILET, We need an NYC area detention facility for Al-Qaida SCUM.
Times Square on the IND?
The IND doesn't go to Times Square -- it's a long block off in either direction.
Unless you mean the west end of the 7 platform.
LOL. I forgot about that! Obviously, that station must have been extended around the same time 8th Ave/14th, and Fulton and Broad on the Nassau line were built
Hey Paul, let me set you all straight. At the risk of being overly verbose let me state that nothing and I mean NOTHING about the Stillwell Avenue head is worth a damn saving. The few times I had to use it I nearly threw up with the stench of the toilets, the urine on the floor and the stifling air that made it hard to breathe. Any change is a vast improvement. That is one piece of nostalgia I can well do without.
Don'tcha like horror flicks? Don'tcha like getting disgustipated? Don'tcha like history? Well, the Stillwell trough/urinal combined all three.
I wonder what the ladies room was like. Maybe it had a trough/bidet?
For a great horror rail story read message 365604. It features the Sea Beach Line!!
Alan Glick
Alan Glick
Aren't you supposed to be gone? Well I'm glad you're back -- several people have said you are very knowledgeable and does source research. So I guess we're glad to have you back. I seem to remember that you trashed several of my arguments earlier on in the year, but I guess I have probably done the same to you, so it's all fair...
AEM7
Gone? Me? No, I did say I'd be dropping in less frequently. But since I've heard about the recent clean up I decided to pop my head in sooner than planned.
Yeah, trashing arguments is fair. I do it with my closest friends on a regular basis. We even get loud and angry. But we draw the line at trashing each other. That's what I think SubTalk looks like now: a bunch of buddies who enjoy having fun and maybe poking fun at each other.
Nice to be hearing from you.
Alan Glick
I'll check it out Alan and where the hell have you been? I haven't seen a post from you in a dog's age. Good to see you're posting again. It must really be muggy down where you are. Good to know you've come up for air. Keep posting.
I wonder what the ladies room was like. Maybe it had a trough/bidet?
You should go in and look, it isn't illegal to go into the wrong bathroom.
I've been to a women's bathroom once, but it was one of those one person at a time units, making the men/women distinction utterly useless.
I couldn't agree with you more Fred, on the toilet at the Stillwell Ave. station. It is incomprehensibly disgusting. If they decide to save it, they should keep it spic and span.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, the bathroom is quite a dump!! (no puns intended) The bathroom though is only as clean as the crews will allow them to be, although, too, the cleaners can visit it a little more and do what they are paid to do....but then again the mess in there is probably why the don't go in and clean!! :-)
I didn't even like going into that restroom for a few minutes to do the obvious, FORGET about having to clean that horror. If that was my job, I don't care how much they paid me, I would be looking for a new one.
A garbage dump is cleaner than the Men's Room at the Stillwell Ave. Terminal. If they gave it a through cleaning, it would be a pleasure to use.
#3 West End Jeff
I remember that awful thing...I haven't been there in years, so couldn't believe it lasted even until now! It's funny, when I was in New Orleans, those trough-type urinals in rest rooms are the majority rather than the minority.
Just a point of info
urinal/trough was no longer there
are the hottest thing in all the trendy clubs
Go figure
Sure, trendy people want to show off thier trendy things.
And if that is true I can tell you that one trendy thing we all have would actually wilt and waste away in that old dingy and disgusting toilet at Stillwell. I liken that bathroom to the Montague Tunnel. Enough said.
Hay in Europe they still piss on the walls.
A CT country fair used to have two boards nailed togather that just went outside on the grass ... it was only used for a couple of days a year. Then the State made some laws & told the fair assoc. it must go along with the well that served tasty frog water. Now that well is used for the indoor toilet. They replaced the out houses with portables ... same thing, just made out of plastic now.
Opps I'm off topic, wish the boys would come back to work !
Isn't there a ToiletTalk board?
Somehow, the somber view of the noble Redbirds being sent to their final repose is made that much more sad by the NYC skyline bereft of the World Trade Center towers.
I'm impressed with the combined archive/subtalk system. Dave, how did you write a database engine so efficient that it can search out (an often quite big) tree-path in a matter of milliseconds? I am supposing that each post has a variable-length set of pointers that points to each subsequent post? And is there a general index that points to the byte location of each post in the db file? I suppose, since the posts are never amended, an index can be quite efficient since the byte location never changes.
AEM7
!! No, I didn't write the database engine. It's MySQL (www.mysql.com)
There's no master file with all the text. The text of each message is stored in a small file in a subdirectory for each 1000 messages. Only the header info is in the database (subject, author, time posted, parent message, child messages, etc.). I'd be interested to see if it could handle the message text in the database on the same machine as well but it's working just fine as it is.
Since MySQL advertises itself as being designed for heavy load, mission-critical apps, it shouldn't have any trouble serving up the entire contents out of the db on a single box. I've been doing contents-heavy databases (thousands of majorly huge documents and images stored directly in the db) in SQL Server on NT for years and it doesn't have any major issues. Since you only have plain text inserts but no updates or deletes, one box should be be adequate. If you were allowing updates/deletes or storing large amounts of binary data, then segmenting the db across multiple storage devices or servers would make sense.
According to NY1 Wednesdays rush hour hoopla was not needed.
eace,
ANDEE
This sounds so insane, it's almost comical -- defeats the whole purpose of having air conditioned trains, but back before the days of a/c at least the trains had multiple fans and roof vents and storm doors and windows that could be opened to provide adequate breezes, albeit warm throughout the train.
Nowadays, most trains don't even have those little latch things to prop the storm doors open, except the single R33's and R62s (or 62A, I keep forgetting!)
And the windows just have little vents on the top part that open slightly inward.
Good job, whoevers idea this was.
--->>>Nowadays, most trains don't even have those little latch things to prop the storm doors open....<<<
I never understood why they took the latches off of the R-62/62As, can any one shed any light on this?
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, one thing I can tell you used to happen years ago. In the days of the Low-V, sometimes some hoodlum would reach into the car when the doors were already closed (and the train was just about to move) and grab a lady's purse, or a man's hat off his head.
Probably to discourage people from latching the storm doors open when the a/c does work.
Conductor's account at odds with CSX record.
AEM7
I think the most important part of the article was the timeline. The call was made litterally as the train was pulling into the first stop at West Newton so you can't fault the crew for stopping there.
The next stop took place at 9:02. This is NOT enough time for a dispatcher to clear the track ahead, OK an express move, get the details of the medical emergency AND call EMS. Because the engineer up front did not have an OK, he had to stop at Newtonville. By the time they would have gotten express clearance they would have been past the last stop!
Second, the whole incident took only 12 minutes from the first call till the train met EMS at Back Bay. Its not like this guy was trapped on the train for 20-30 min. Calling EMS to either of the first two stations would have taken at least 5 min from the time of first ccontact w/ the dispatcher ans as Lexcie said traffic around there sucks at Rush hour. Thye crew felt that their best bet was to have EMS waiting at Back Bay then gambling thay EMS could reach Newtonville or West Newton in time.
Not this weekend, but the following two weekends, there's an interesting GO on the F. Trains will run in two segments. One segment will operate normal in both directions but only between 179th and 2nd Avenue. The other will operate normal southbound all the way from 179th to Stillwell, but will run via the G northbound. During the day, the northbound C (but not the A) will run via Rutgers to connect the two segments. The G will also be cut back to Court Square to make room at Queens Plaza. (Anyone with more information than what's posted here, please correct me if I got the details wrong.)
If any R-32's are running on the second segment, this is a rare opportunity to see the Crosstown line through the railfan window.
I guess someone decided it would be more entertaining to use the C to connect the two Fs instead of running the Fs to/from Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Seriously, though: are there crew quarters at H-S and/or is it an issue of having to reverse the trains on both the Fulton and Crosstown?
No, that was a late-night-only GO on weeknights. This is an all-weekend GO. The other one is still happening. I assume it's operating differently specifically to avoid the C problem you raise in your other post.
As for the C problem (how to get to York, E. Broadway, Delancey, 2nd Avenue, and Broadway-Laf when the C isn't running at night), take the A to W4 and transfer to a SB F (running normal) downstairs. Yes, it's a pain. Perhaps it would be a better idea to send the late night A NB via Rutgers as well -- more people would be inconvenienced, but fewer would have to make two extra transfers.
Duh. I'm doing too many things on too many computers here today. I completely missed the "Manhattan-bound" bit in the G.O.
Last night was a MESS with the G.O on the F. The Tower Opt. at Bedford-Norstran did not know the move into the Relay train north of the station. They had to get another Tower Opt. to come in and work the switched. I was the 0018 G from 4th Ave. I sat at Fulton St for 40min and then moved slowly down untill I passed Bedford. I got to 71st Ave 1hours Late.
Robert
They once did run the Fs in two sections with a transfer at H-S over a weekend, and managed to have the A, C, and G running through without too many snags.
I forgot to put in the other post, what about the York St, E.Bway and Delancey stations late night when the C doesn't run? The G.O. doesn't say anything about service to/from them. It says to take the A to W4 during those times. Granted, there probably are extremely few passengers using those stops at those hours, but there should at least be some mention of it in the G.O.
Can they catch the F downtown??? I think thats how it would work
I keep seeing "IIRC" in posts. Forgive me for being a little naive, but could someone please clarify what this stands for? Thanks.
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thank you, David :o)
FYI, there are websites that spell out all of the abbreviations used on the internet. You should seek them out.
Here are a few:
IYKWIM=If you know what I mean
IMHO=In my humble opinion
WTF=What the f*ck
There are many more, I'm sorry i don't recall the URLs at the moment.
Peace,
ANDEE
Speaking of abbreviations, young people in Taiwan create their own "English" abbreviations because of the internet, such as,
LKK (Lao Ko Ko in Chinese) means very very old.
SPP (Song Pia Pia in Taiwanese) means very cheesy.
UKLM (U Ki La Mei in Chinese) means very young and sexy girls.
The internet creates this kind of subcultures.
Chaohwa
SPP (Song Pia Pia in Taiwanese) means very cheesy.
Doesn't "Song" describe the feeling when you've just had sex and are feeling on top of the world and swish? So I am guessing Song Pia Pia means that something makes you feel good, proud, better than everybody else and generally "Cool"?
Or have I failed my Taiwan Idioms 101?
AEM7
I know what you mean. You are right about that. The problem is there are four different ways to pronounce Song. My "Song" is the second one; whereas your "Song" is the fourth one.
Chaohwa
UKLM (U Ki La Mei in Chinese) means very young and sexy girls.
An abbreviation which Qtraindash7 surely will find useful.
Great minds think alike !
Eye no it's b/c ur smoking something again :-)
http://www.magicpub.com/netprimer/acronyms.html
Scroll Safely!!
""AOTC""....
ESB
Hey SubTalk, I was just letting everyone know that I finally rode the R-143, I was in car #8185, I rode from Rockaway Pkwy. Station to Broadway ENY, When we left Rockaway Pkwy., and switched on to the Manhattan Bound Track, I didn't feel us switcing, that's how smooth it is. And I remember people saying that the R-143 doesn't have a railfan window, It does have one, I can see right into the Conductor's Office and throughout the second window, I can see perfectly, Even though I couldn't see the Front of the Train, because I was in the 5th Car of the Trainset. Since the R-160 will look identical to the R-143, I think they need to put those trains on the A Line First, Because I take that line to school. After I got off the R-143 (sadly), I had to take the A Line to Nostrand Ave., and the R-44(#5263) feels nothing like the R-143.
Will you still be going to that school in 2006 when the first R-160s are delivered?
I think you were looking into the conductor's cab. When you take your Acela Express ride, find your way to the cafe car. In the middle is a real conductor's office. It's shared by the Bombardier technician. You can easily see the speedometer. If the door is closed, ask a crew member to open it or you. I've never heard them refuse such a request... they like showing off their toy, even to reail fans!
Oh Damn! I get out of school in 2005, but that aint gonna stop me from riding the R-160. I already where everything is on the Acela Expres, I have 2 Tapes on the Train, I have one 2 hour tape where a guy rides the Acela Express and shows all the different features on the trainset, And he also went Rhode Island and taped the Acela Express going at 150 mph, he taped the Trainset from Trackside.
where did youget the cab rides? BTW. I tink the 2hr tape might have beena waste. you can bring a hadheld camera and document from there
If you hae seen the tape, you wouldn't say that, But then again u dont like the Acela.
I never said I rode in the Cab.
H/o I never said i ddnt like the acela. I said that it was a stupid move (infastructure, etc.)
testing,,,,,,,1,2
Since the R-160 will look identical to the R-143, I think they need to put those trains on the A Line First, Because I take that line to school.
Well THAT alone is a good reason for the MTA to do that.
Kidding aside, it's hard to say what they are going to do, they could go just about anywhere. It's probably safe to say theat the C won't be getting any. That line seems to always have the oldest equipment in the system. Although, the Eastern division is usually also the last to get new trains, but this time it's the first.
It is kind of crazy to speculate as to where the R160 will go, yet the sense I get is the TA would like to do weekend OPTO on the J when these cars come in. Supposedly, the entire ENY fleet ultimately will be R143/R160. The R160 will come in 4 and 5 car linked sets.
Wouldn't THAT be ironic? The Eastern Division used to get the hand-me-downs, now it'll be the newest fleet in the entire system!
--Mark
That is true! For once the Eastern Division got the newest. When I first heard the L was going to get the R143 first I thought it must be some kind of joke. Then when I heard the M would also be getting them I nearly fell down! A far cry from the R16 disasters in the mid 80's! (not that I don't miss them.)
goto mta.info under the what's new section. It Appears that Kawasaki and Alstrom have won!
You just now finding this information??? Every SubTalker already knows who won the contract, we been talking about it for a couple of days.
Be nice now. Some of us working stiffs do go on vacation to get away.
True.
my bad!!!
Some of us didn't read the other threads, mainly because the delivery is so far away.
As part of MTV's REAL WORLD Marathon, the NEW YORK
episodes (filmed 2001) will be shown SAT 3 AUGUST
between 1130 and 900pm....
The 1130 episode, for one, involves the
NYC Subway System in it's synopsis...
I've seen a few of those episodes. There are also some nice views of the WTC in it's "city-shot" scenes, along with some subway riding throughout.
Ayup, the exterior of r32 cars entering 23rd Street..
Interiors of the 1/9 train... A/C/E/L at 14st too!
It's intriguing to see WHERE and HOW the subways
were filmed in the series...
Post 9/11 these NEW YORK episodes have been somewhat
'rare' if not 'retired' by MTV so I'd catch them in the
Marathon bundle..
:)
Just got this from Bloomberg:
Hello and thank you for your inquiry. The following Bloomberg Radio talent appears on the NYC transit: Jessica Ettinger is the voice behind the 4,5,6 lines; Diane Thompson announces on the 1,2,3,9 metro lines; Any Bergan for the S and 7; and Catherine Cowdery can be heard on the J,L,M,Z subways. Hope this information is of help. With kind regards, Sofia Totti
Note the reference to S and 7-- maybe they are planning on using these cars (an option order) on these lines? If true then all redbirds will go to the great subway in the drink.
I think they only have the S and 7 just so they can have all of the lines "ready". I guess they'll need these people again after 2004.
I rode a R142 #5 train today and seems like the station annoucements are shared by the lady who does the #2 train and another lady.
The No.5 Line has 4 voices. The No.2,5,6 Female voices and the Male does the closing door announcement.
Are these the "people" who do the computer recordings on the 142s and 143s? I'm confused here.
Yes, there's some more info in the "who is that" thread also.
If you have checked the short thread titled:
"Announcements on R142's and R142A's"
David Greenberger gives a very helpful explanation. The male voice is Charlie (?) on both the 2 and the 6 and the female voice is identical on both lines.
He also explained why SubTalkers thought the voices on the #2 line seemed "cheerful" (they do not they are identical).
I know that some of you will disagree, but the East River is one of the most important things that affects the New York Subway. I will admit that a railfan from another part of the country will not care about the East River, but all of the subway lines that don't cross the East River are either really lame, or are the 6.
The 1 is lame??
Or B & D?
Chaohwa
The B and D are supposed to cross the East River under "normal" service when the Manhattan Bridge is fully open.
I'm sorry to say, but as it stands now, the B is lame. The D, however, is debatable.
The 1 crosses the East River.
Should it be Harlem River?
Chaohwa
Yes, indeed. #1 crosses both Harlem and East Rivers.
Chaohwa
The 1 crosses the East River.
I'm talking about its normal service pattern.
It's normal service pattern is with the 9, The 1/9 is lame.
If the 9 was eliminated, then my comment would be vrong.
Yes. The 1 is lame. Only good thing about it is the pizza at VC, and the fact that it has the best A/C. The 62's on the 4 line suck.
The 6 line is great. I wish the crew office would send me their more often.
Your post shows why railfanning is so interesting. One can always look at a subject a bit differently and come up with more interesting material. For example: crossing the East River.. One could list the crossings in chronological order, or discuss the engineering problems in each bridge or tunnel, or see how each helped the development of our metropolis. Or one could get personal and (perhaps) identify the people responsible for planning each.
The (F)(M)(N)(R) and (W) each cross the East River twice. Does that make them extra cool?
:-) Andrew
The N doesn;t have to cross the East River twice to be cool. It is cool because it is the Sea Beach and it is Sea Beach Fred's train. What else is needed. Cocky, aren't I?
I've been a T/O since October. They shoved me in the IRT, so I can't operate the Sea Beach Line. This does not sit well with me. I've always wanted to work the IND and BMT trains. They've told me I won't be able to transfer until next summer. You have no idea what an inconvenience it is to travel from Queens to the Bronx everyday. Or even worse, travel to Flatbush on the 5 line, and finish the day at Dyre! I'd do anything to get over to the B div.
Hey Triple A, good post and straight from the horse's mouth. Your post should be saved and put away for posterity. There you have it folks, a T/O operator who tells it like it is, namely, the IRT is for the birds and the BMT rules. I hope you get your transfer one of these days, sooner than later. Maybe you'll even get a Sea Beach run. Wouldn't that be a hoot. In fact, despite what some of my friends on this site think, the Brighton and West End would be great, too. They're very good lines as well. Of course, if you get the 4th Avenue Local you might wish you stayed on the IRT.
My main gripe with the IRT is that it's far from home. Try getting to those terminals in the Bronx from Queens on a daily basis.
Truthfully, I find the A division lines to be boring, except for the stretch between E.180-Dyre, and the 7 line. But I still like the 6 line because you don't have to get out of your cab at Brooklyn Bridge. This gives me a chance to relax in the same seat from Pelham to BB, and back. I've always wanted to work the historic B division lines in Queens and Brooklyn, as opposed to the A division lines that bring me to areas of the Bronx I'd never even seen in my life. I always imagined myself coming into Coney Island Terminal during sunset, or cruising over Jamaica Bay on a sunny day like today.
But in defense of the IRT, I must say that management is great. I work with a great group of people. But it's always better to work closer to home. Especially when you do shift work such as we do.
I just found out that approximately 40 T/O's are going to transfer to the IRT this pick. This will open more jobs for me. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'll be in the IND/BMT by next summer.
Of course, if you get the 4th Avenue Local you might wish you stayed on the IRT.
It's even worse when you live near it, and can't just pick a new line to live on every 6 months.
We warned you. Queens to the Bronx is no biggie - I spent the better part of 4 years going to the Bronx from Staten Island. Much happier now that I work out of Midtown and Coney Island.
Once upon a time I did a run almost as bad. Lived in the Bronx at 204th and Webster at the end of the D train, had to report to Stillwell at oh dark hundred. Not a chance of reporting to MY end of the line. Made me nuts. My sympathies, LuchAAA, but ALex definitely had more of a haul. I trust that involved the Ferry as well as the long ride "on property."
Depended on what time I had to start. Any AM start before about 0700, I usually drove to. When I worked midnights, I always drove. If the timing was right, I could take a ferry; then the commute looked like this:
Leave home 0530
Ferry departs 0600
Manhattan arrival 0628
VC - add 55 minutes
Lenox - add 40 minutes
Main St - add 55 minutes
Everywhere else - 3 minute run to Bowling Green, then add appropriate travel time from there.
Yep, that's a haul. Since I lived in the Bronx back in my days, the cardinal rule was "don't have a car. Someone will take it away from you, most likely the CITY." So I had to do the "people's duties" reporting to the other end of the D train, usually leaving home around 4AM when there were plenty of trains. The only good part was I could usually open up a cab and cop a nap on my way to and from. :)
Or else instead of leaving the IRT, couldn't you go to the (7), or at least to the Livonia Yard on the (1)? (Or do the trips not start there?
:-) Andrew
I doubt they start at Livonia. Pre-9/11, all the 1 runs would start at VC, and all the 3 runs probably started at 148th, since they have a nice crew room there.
and all the 3 runs probably started at 148th, since they have a nice crew room there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
There are definitely jobs on the 3 line out of Livonia. I'll get back to you on that for sure.
The crew room at 148 is not very popular. Especially after you've been to VC and 241 a few times.
There are jobs out of Livonia Yard on the Nos. 2,3,4,5 Lines. Thes best are from the No.5 Line but you need some years to start out of Brooklyn on a Weekday with the Reg. runs.
This year with the 9/11 service changes added jobs from the No.1 Line started out of New Lots Term.
I just hope things get better for me. Right now, I'm extra extra. It sucks. I'm praying that I get work on the west side in September, because those are mostly 8 hr jobs. The crew office has been killing me lately. 10hr yard jobs. 5 hours on the board before picking up a job. 2 or 3 days on the 4 line every week, which is nothing but penalty jobs.
I'm crossing my fingers that I'll be on the west side next pick, with nothing but 8 hr jobs.
It takes about 1 Year before you can get a job or you can Bid on an open job on the first week of the pick. I do wish you luck because I also couldn't wait to get off the Extra List. I put a Bid in for a Late PM job just to get off the RX List.
The Bway section is ALWAYS last to go so you will not have to worry about that.
Look at the bright side: everyday OUR seniority moves up a notch so even if you can't do the work, you still can PICK it. Couldn't find my punchcard last week...turns out I moved up two notches. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if you don't crash a trainset in RTO or blow up a car during inspection, 'body count' means much...on time, not sick, not absent. We all have EXCELLENT WORK. CI Peter
The crewroom at 148 ST and Lenox is very small. Not my favorite I would pick 242 St-VC
I used to live a block from the East River and once tried to climb the Queensboro Bridge ( foolish child). That was home and to me the East River, though filthy and dingy, was always known as our neighborhood river. I also knew at a very young age that those trains went under the river on their way to Manhattan, the Brighton and 4th Avenue Local. The East River, I am told, is much cleaner today. I wonder!
I notice that you say "Subway lines that don't cross the East River," thats an important distinction that needs to be made. Certainly the MN and Amtrak are worthy of railfan attention, the M2s,4s, and 6s are not found anywhere else in the world, and the beautiful Hudson Line feeds across the Harlem into both NYP and GCT.
I have always liked riding a train across a bridge, it's better than a car ride across a bridge, you're more exposed, and there's rarely a guardrail to keep you on the bridge or anything. From the standpoint of riding a train across a bridge, the Harlem is a much better river than the East. The East river has a total of 13 crossings rail (I'm assuming that the E and V and the M,N and R use the same tunnels, and I'm including the East River LIRR tunnels), of which only two are located on bridges. However, on the Harlem river, there are six crossings, of which three are elevated (The 1, MN and Amtrak's). The reason for this is quite simple, the east river is a much wider river, and most of Manhatten that abuts it is or was more developed at the time of subway construction, therefore a subway tube makes more sense than adding a subway track to a bridge. Look at the 63rd st tunnel and the Chrystie St. Connection, I actually don't know when the 63rd st tunnel was started, but I do know that Chrystie has been going on for some 40 or so years. It seems to me that a Subway tube is just easier over such a distance.
Tunneling under the East River creates some of the deepest stations in the city. To me that qualifies it as an important railfan thing.
CG
"… but the East River is one of the most important things that affects the New York Subway…"
I use to live by the Botanic Gardens when the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was a wreck (had a clear view of the S as it switched tracks before Prospect Park). Even back then, it has always been a vital connection; there are not many ways to connect to the A/C in Brooklyn. Since its been redone, with finally a connection to the 1,2,4,5, its even better
so as for:
"…East River, but all of the subway lines that don't cross the East River are either really lame, or are the 6."
Its the Franklin Acenue Shuttle isnot lame to a lot of riders what need to access the A, C, D, 1, 2, 4, 5 (east river crossers)
Not lame and not necessary are two different things. There are lots of lame things that are necessary, like a fare hike :(
YES!
The Franklin Avenue Shuttle might be important, but it's short and thus, quite lame.
Huh? Short=lame? The shuttle is/was part of BMT Fulton El service and Brighton's origional link to an East river crossing. I'm pretty sure the "non-lameness" of the Brighton existed pre-shuttle, and pre-Fulton IND. (Pretty lame with a four track main EXCEPT where it crosses the river.) And find me another spot that can boast a wreck as collosal and as stupid as Malbone. Was that a lame wreck? I say the Franklin Ave. Shuttle is Hottie McHot.
"…There are lots of lame things that are necessary, like a fare hike :( "
Agreed overall
As for the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, think the only lame thing about it is that its just 4 stops, but it is necessary
Questionm: At one point, weren't the Franklin Ave tracks connected to a line that ran over the Brooklyn Bridge? Does anyone have a pict of that route and knows why service over the Brooklyn Bridge was stopped?
Was it due to the Melborne Street accident (now Empire Blvd; incident where a train went throught the old S curve before Prospect Park at 40miles; one of the worst accidents in the subways history)
Questionm: At one point, weren't the Franklin Ave tracks connected to a line that ran over the Brooklyn Bridge? Does anyone have a pict of that route and knows why service over the Brooklyn Bridge was stopped?
Yes. The route was: Brooklyn Bridge, a private ROW, Fulton St, then as the Franklin/Brighton Lines. Stations were at: Park Row, Sands St, Court & Myrtle, Boerum Pl, Elm & Duffield, Flatbush Av, Lafayette Av, Cumberland St, Vanderbilt Av, Grand Av, Franklin Av, Dean St, Park Pl etc.
Through Fulton - Franklin - Brighton service was mainly replaced on August 1st 1920 with the Shuttle due to the opening of the Subway from De Kalb Avenue to Prospect Park. On Summer Sundays and holidays a Franklin - Brighton service ran until 1963 (with the Fulton Street El closing on May 31st 1940 - it had become surplus to requirements with the IND Fulton St Subway). Service on the Brooklyn Bridge itself (although by that time only the Myrtle Av Line used it) ceased in 1942 due to a fire at Sands St station.
Everything you say is correct except for one thing:
Brooklyn Bridge service ceased in 1944.
Thanks alot, much appreciated
Here is a 1924 map that shows the Fulton El. Through Fulton-Franklin service was already over, but the Fulton line is still there: http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/historical/bmt1924.gif
Here is a track map overlaid onto the Downtown Brooklyn Street Grid, some streets are now gone, and Cadman Plaza West and Old Fulton Street were still part of and continuous with Fulton Street. Cadman Plaza East was Washington Street: http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/dtbklyn1.gif
The tracks on Adams eventually turn onto Myrtle.
Thanks alot, 2 maps are great, much appreciated too.
If any future East River crossings are made, I hope one is the Utica line from Houston Street. Could do like what British James suggested before, make that an express from Bway-Lafayatte. Would like to see the provision at Utica Avenue Station used
The Manhattan bridge, whether 6th Ave or Broadway, in my opinion has a lot to do with its large usage. The abiltity to get into manhattan without passing throgh lower manhattan if u dont need to from Brooklyn. Any new one, if done where people need or want to go, would do a lot
"...a railfan from another part of the country will not care about the East River..." That's not true. I'm from another part of the country, and not a day passes that the East River doesn't enter my thoughts. I still can't imagine where its headwaters are. One question, where the Nassau Street line and the Broadway line merge into the Montague tunnel, is that point under water or not? Many maps suggest that it is, and that seems like a difficult piece of tunnel engineering.
IIRC it is. I think i remember seeing the switch where the tunnel curves to meet the broadway line in the tunnel because my friend pointed it out to me. i believe it is underwater.
"One question, where the Nassau Street line and the Broadway line merge into the Montague tunnel, is that point under water"
Absolutely yes. It's very clear on the Hagstrom map of lower Manhattan. The R is under Whitehall, while the M is under Broad. These streets are parallel as they reach the shore, so there is absolutely no way the tunnels could merge anywhere other than under the water.
With all this talk of the Stillwell Avenue Construction, I wonder if a similar design could be used for some of the stations on the MBTA's Ashmont Line, especially "Fields Corner" and "Ashmont." Does solar-power sound like a good idea for those stations? Also, has the MBTA ever released designs for the re-done stations, since construction will start there at some point in the near future? -Nick
Nick From wjat Im hearing Fields Corner is going to razied and rebuilt, as well as Savin Hill. as for Shamut they are goin to add 2 new elevators for ADA compliance and Adhmont Im not sure. The T has not relesed drawings of the re-building of the line as of yet. Stevie
Please post with additions or corrections
Shawmut doesn't look like it needs too much of a modernization, not to mention that it is underground. I'd imagine the MBTA would raize Ashmont, since it is also a dump like Fields Corner, and Savin Hill isn't much better. -Nick
<<< I'd imagine the MBTA would raize Ashmont, since it is also a dump like Fields Corner>>>
Ashmont was rebuilt in 1981. Fields Corner was not.
Jim D.
"Ashmont was rebuilt in 1981. Fields Corner was not."
Wow, thats surprising..both stations are in bad shape. -Nick
Do you think that one will ever be built?
You're hitting the wackypuffy early today. It will run to the 76th St. station, right?
Don't you mean Pork Ave.?
The MNRR already runs underneath Pork Avenue. :-)
The train terminates at Hamway, which is a fully accessible station to all bacon lovers.
York Avenue in New York? No.
It would be unwise to build a line with population solely on only one side. Of course, there is the eight avenue line under CPW, but the express line runs up cpw without a stop, the park is a ridership source, and cpw is only for a limitted portion of the route.
MATT-2AV
That would be a real stubway - 53rd St to 92nd St.
On the 30th, I took a R8 up to Chestnut hill around 1:19, and went up to do some drawing for a few hours. I get the train back, and make it back to the hotel (the Inn at Penn). I turn on the news, and find out there is a 2-alarm warehouse fire at 17th and Indiana, and all Regional rail service has been delayed in the area. What a bad place for a fire....right between the SEPTA Main Line, the R6, the R8, and a block from the NE Corridor. Luckily, I made the train back about an hour or two before the fire broke out.
The next day, I was walking back to the hotel from the El around 5 pm, and saw a trolley breakdown right in front of the 36th St Portal. Two 10's were linked together, and the front one broke down right at the portal station. This left the second one blocking all traffic in the street. Everyone moved to the back car, and the back car had to push the front one. Lots of screeching wheels spinning in place, and pretty soon the trolleys were moving. That screwed traffic up quite a bit.
While I was in town, I also caught a ride on the two South Philly trackless lines, and those things are great! So quiet, and I love the zapping noise they make as the poles slide along the overhead.
I just took the time to count up all the stairs to climb in a day, and it's unbelievable.
Going in to work, I take the F, change at 4th Avenue and 9th Street, and exit at Whitehall. There is an escalator there, but it is often out of service, and I have gotten used to the stairs. These days I take the stairs even when the escalator is working, reasoning that since I'm in worse shape than it is, that's probably a good idea. It's 91 stairs to the street.
On the way home, I have to climb from the BMT at 9th Street to the 4th Avenue stop on the F. That's 83 stairs. Then I have to exit the station at Prospect Park 15th Street. That's 56 stairs. Finally there are the 11 stairs up my stoop, and the 15 stairs from my ground floor up to my second floor bedroom, where I change out of my work clothes. That's a total of 165 stairs on the way home, and 256 for the round trip commute. That's like going up 17 stories!
Add on trips between the basement, ground floor, and second floor in my home in the morning and evening, and it looks like I'm going up 20 to 25 floors every weekday. Sure is different than taking an SUV to a one-story ranch house up three steps from garage.
So why am I in such bad shape anyway?
I don't know if this would entail less climbing, but if you use an unlimited MetroCard, have you tried transferring from the N/R to the F at Lawrence/Jay? The two stations have entrances a short block apart and, although Lawrence is deep, IIRC it has an escalator.
Larry is an employee of NYC Transit, and as such has a free MetroCard.
As for the escalator at Lawrence Street, it's out of service now, and that's its usual condition, unfortunately.
David
(Transfer at Lawrence Street rather than 4th Ave.)
I tried that for a while when I first moved from City Planning to NYCT, but going all the way up to the street and then back down proved to be a time loser. As a customer, it really doesn't feel good, even with the transfer now free. So I do the stairs.
Note that there are two new within station transfers planned, from Lawrence to Jay Street and from Broadway-Nassau to the northbound Lex Local. These will make a big difference to Brooklyn, but progress is slow. I hope they don't drop from the capital program once the election passes and the state and its agencies are allowed to admit their budget problems.
Broadway-Nassau to the northbound lexington Ave local? Methinks you really mean Broadway-Lafayette to the NB local, no?
(Broadway-Nassau to the northbound lexington Ave local? Methinks you really mean Broadway-Lafayette to the NB local, no?)
Right -- I always get those confused.
Stairs going down don't count?
Stairs going down are fun. One day I'm gonna break my ass running down the stairs at 51st/Lex, but until then I'm going to keep doing it.
Going up the stairs there, is completely different.
Stairs going down don't hurt. One reason I counted all 256 stairs now is that my wife bought an "elliptical" exercise machine for us to get back in shape. It's a good machine, but it uses the same step-up motion as climbing stairs. So those muscles are really hurting these days, and I'm really noticing each and every step on the subway. Hope they toughen up.
Ever tried running up a down escalator?
I wouldn't recommend this if the escalator is full of people.
No, but I run down the up escalator all the time. 59th and Lex, downtown 6 train to the N/R/W platform. Saves a lot of time.
Going in to work, I take the F, change at 4th Avenue and 9th Street, and exit at Whitehall. There is an escalator there, but it is often out of service
How do you define Hell? A place where the MTA maintains the escalators!
I just got back from a family vacation to the Rochester area, and during the trip I was treated to a grand tour of the New York Museum of Transportation. Since this does have to do with New York transit and even has a little to do with a New York subway (but not "the" New York subway), I figured I'd post something about NYMT on this forum.
NYMT is a small trolley museum in Rush, NY, about 20 minutes south of Rochester. They got started pretty late, in the early to mid-1970's. The museum's main barn was once an agricultural barn, but it's big enough to house most of their modest collection. The collection consists of the following:
New York State Railways #157 - this 1915 steel interurban car was built by Niles, and is one only 4 Niles steel cars in existence. It was used as a cabin after retirement in 1932, but NYMT was able to strip parts off a Philly center-entrance car and acquire a pair of curved-equalizer trucks from Japan for the future restoration of #157. NYMT has already cosmetically restored half of #157's exterior, and it looks fantastic.
Elmira Corning & Waverly #107 - this 1911 wood Jewett interurban is odd in that, after retirement in 1930, it was made into a cottage - but kept its trucks and underbody equipment! It's stored in NYMT's barn next to #157, stripped of paint and awaiting restorative work.
Philadelphia Transit Co #C130 - this is NYMT's snow sweeper, built in 1923 by Brill. It has been regauged to standard, and is stored in the barn, but its tram wheels mean it isn't likely to operate anytime soon. It's complete, though, and probably operational.
Northern Texas Traction #411 - out of place among a Northeastern collection, this 1919 St. Louis product is actually a wooden interurban parlor car. After retirement the body was bought by the Rochester Old Spaghetti Factory restaurant, where it remained until about 1997, when NYMT got the body. It's kind of rough - the exterior was sand-blasted, which ravaged the wood, and the interior is somewhat modified. The car is nicely painted, though, and is stored in the barn.
Philadelphia & Western #161 & #168 - these two "Strafford" rapid transit cars were built by Brill in 1927. After serving with P&W, Red Arrow and SEPTA, they were bought by Trans-Mississippi Trolley in 1990 (?) and rebuilt with ground-level loading doors. They were used during the 1993 floods to ferry workers across the river. In 1996 both cars were sold to NYMT, and last year #168 became the first electric car ever to operate at NYMT under its own power.
Batavia Traction #33 - this single-truck semiconvertible, built by Kuhlman in 1911, is only a shell. It's in the barn awaiting restorative attention.
Rochester Street Railway #437 - a typical streetcar from the Rochester street railway system, this body was built by Kuhlman in 1904 and acquired by NYMT in 1997. It's stored outside under a tarp, but work is already being done towards making the car complete.
Rochester Transit #0243 - this ancient single-truck streetcar (Stephenson, 1891) was rebuilt into a sand car in 1918. It went to the Magee Trolley Museum, which was wiped out by Hurricane Agnes in 1973. After NYMT got the car it was completely disassembled, right down to the frame, and then the project was abandoned. It looks pretty forlorn, but NYMT has all the parts in stock for future reassembly.
Hornell Traction #10 - this pitiful snow sweeper body was built by Brill in 1905. It is pretty historic, as this type of sweeper was common among street railways but rarely preserved, but it's in very bad shape. It's under a tarp outside.
There's a lot of other stuff of interest at NYMT. They have a small gas-mechanical engine from the Rochester Subway, which is in very poor shape and is largely disassembled. They also have a very interesting speeder from the Subway, which was gorgeously restored a couple years ago. NYMT has more displays, ranging in subject from the Rochester Subway to track construction to the history of American train design, than any other private museum I've seen - the only place that comes close is Branford. They have a large HO-scale layout on display, plus a fire truck, an old pickup, and three buses. There is also a large room full of spare parts for their electric cars. Outside, a loop circles the barn; part of the loop has wire over it, and they're working on extending the overhead. They operated last year for the first time using a crude generator, but they've discarded that system in favor of a substation and commercial AC. This system is in development. Their line runs about 1.5 miles from the site, and at the other end is the local NRHS chapter. The NRHS chapter owns a Lack MU car, a number of diesels, freight cars and passenger cars, and - most interestingly, I think - the last surviving electric car from the Rochester Subway. It's a far cry from anything the IND or IRT would run - it's basically an MU-capable streetcar. It's also in really horrible shape, with all the side panels rusted through. It's been partly disassembled by the NRHS chapter in hopes of restoring it, but it will take a lot of work and a lot of money.
Overall, NYMT is making a lot of progress, especially considering their small size. Just thought you'd like to know. :-)
BTW, their website is www.nymtmuseum.org
Frank Hicks
Frank: Sounds like a great place to vist. Thanks for the report.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for your informative posting. I visited this alleged "museum" just about the time it was first established and opened. A speeder was running for the public. Long talks were conducted with several key members at that time and it was evident that they did not have a clue about what they had to do - and didn't seem anxious to learn! The sad results you report are not surprising. If the railway pieces are in bad condition(they were in better shape during my visit in the mid-80s), no amount of money will be able to save such an organization nor the equipment they possess. What a shame that such unique equipment has been condemned to a slow death! The lack of financial planning seems painfully evident. Alas!
Unlike a certain other SubTalker, I see no USEFUL purpose in knocking a museum that's trying. Saturday at a bus thing sponcered by the Motor Bus Society I got an update about another new museum that's trying to make a go of it in Putman, CT (they're a diesel place).
Thanks for the input.
Accroding to the Dallas Morning news DART is about to raise fares for the first time since 1995 from 1.00 to 1.25. What DART is planning is operating fewer lrv's nights and weekends and eliminating some of the lower performing bus routes.
Welcome New SubTalker!! I know nothing about Dallas Transit.
Sounds like its operating cost (labor) has gone up a bit since 1995. Still for $1.25 you can ride a RDC on the TRE.
How much will it be to ride all the way to the T&P station in Fort Worth?
Right Now It's 2.00 one way and 4.00 for a day pass to go out o Fort Worth. Since moving to Charlotte I haven't had the chance to ride TRE all the way out to Fort Worth but I did ride the RDC's out to South Irving before the extension to Fort Worth and what I smooth ride. However they were a little sluggish in the acceleration department but that's expected.
I did ride the RDC's out to South Irving before the extension to Fort Worth and what [a] smooth ride
RDC's? Smooth ride? The two doesn't belong in the same sentence. How can you not feel the vibrations of the underfloor 400 hp prime mover?
AEM7
I rode, of all things, LONG ISLAND's RDC's for many years. And we allknow that LIRR track is NOT the greatest. Never remember any rough ride, in fact, I used to LOVE it when the RDC's showed up on a Jamaica-Patchogue run instead of a trainload of P54 ping-pongs. Usually this happened on a Sunday evening run, and then the RDC pair would be used on the Babylon-Patchogue shuttle all week.
And though there was some engine NOISE -- it was not obtrusive, and I don't recall much vibration.
Well the only "real" RDC I ever rode was on the Cape May Seashore lines. Maybe they were past their prime.
AEM7
The RDC's were very smooth but you could here the "bass" sound of the mover when they were getting up to speed.
DART has had problems with its buses for a long time. There is a Harvard Case Study about it a while ago, it's not public so I'm not allowed to give away too much details, but basically in Plano and many suburbs, they tried various different ways of providing transit -- for instance, they tried dial-a-ride at one point and it didn't really work. The real problem is that Dallas simply doesn't have the kind of density needed for an effective transit system. Their farebox recovery has been consistently poor and there really isn't much anyone can do about it. The 40' bus is just far too big for many parts of Dallas, and even if you swapped them for smaller buses it is still very hard to provide effective fixed-route transit.
See Carolyn Konheim et al, "Effective Transit Requires Walkable Communities", Transportation Research Record 1722, Paper 00-1064.
AEM7
Well your right about the 40 foot buses. For instance, the route I rode back and forth from school (56> 156> now 516) would suffer constantly with ridership. So to fix it DART replaced some 40 foot RTS II's with Neoplan AN 660's. Then they took the 60 footers back and took away Saturday service. Next they added Saturday service but only one bus would run all day. Then when the rail line opened up they reduced service from 15 minuets during rush hour to 22 minuets. Finally they said screw it and now the route just runs to the rail station at Tyler Vernon. The only reason that route is still around is because the people along Rugged Dr. (the routes main road) caused a stink about it. But from what I've been reading the 40 footers on most routes in suburban Dallas are on their way out. The already have theses 30 or 35 foot Ibuses running on some routes. Dallas has done very well with the light rail and commuter rail expansions but they have severely neglected their bus routes.
Here's one for you all:
I had to scan it and look at it large to see where it was. Take a look.
Stillwell Avenue.
That's what I thought too, at first. But nope!
Dave - Definitely Stillwell Ave. looking north from Surf Ave. The train above is at the West End line platform (on what is now track 8, but the picture probably dates from the days when they were still using letters for the tracks, so it would be track H). The stairway down from the platform and the stringers are what I remember from that platform back in the days before it was lengthened to accommodate 600' long trains. You can see the Stillwell Ave. bridge over Coney Island creek in the background, and the back end of a bus going into the bus turnaround opposite Mermaid Ave. under the elevated structure (Norton's Point bus route, which ran down Mermaid Ave and replaced the trolleys which ran on a private right of way and up a ramp to a terminal at subway track level unitl 1948).
Judging from the cars, I'd say around 1958 or 59.
-- Ed Sachs
Judging from the BMT standards visible, it has to be at the very least an elevated subway station. Looks a lot like Stillwell Ave. to me, too.
It does look like Stilwell Avenue/Coney Island. In the background you can see the Belt Parkway viaduct over the Stillwell Avenue bridge. And you can see a small piece of the Neptune Avenue gas tanks in the top of the photo.
Gas tanks.. Eesh! I called them 'water boilers'.
Thanks folks! :)
The correct term is gas holders. Years ago. gas was produced for heating and lighting by heating coal in a vacuum and storing the gas in special tanks that had the unique feature of variable capacity. the entire tank was enclosed in a steel framework and the top of the tank could be raised and lowered within that framework, thus changing the capacity of the tank.
The late Elmhurst tanks were explained as not gas storage, per se, as much as pressure regulators. The gas comes in via pipeline, but the temporary storage in the tanks means that, at times of high use, pressure can be maintained by running down the tanks, rather depending on the pipeline pressure alone.
Did I make sense there? Water tanks are often used for the same purpose.
I miss the Elmhurst tanks. They were quite a feature on the landscape.
I miss the Elmhurst tanks. They were quite a feature on the landscape.
Blight, I believe, would be a better adjective to use. I'm glad they tore those things down and removed the Greenpoint tanks as well. The Elmhurst tanks were pretty close to the border of Maspeth, and I recall hearing them referred to as the Maspeth tanks as well.
For aircraft approaching LaGuardia, there's a very famous approach called the "Expressway Visual" to runway 31, which essentially has aircraft fly north-ish over the BQE, east at the Greenpoint tanks, over the LIE, and make a big circle to the left over Corona Park and land on rwy 31. Well, for years (and even after the tanks came down), the approach plates for that procedure incorrectly called them the Maspeth tanks. I even wrote to the FAA to mention this oversight once, but never heard back from them. There's now a fairly complex notam in place explaing not-all-that-clearly what to do and where to turn :)
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
Don't hold your breath over the notam....Paris was correct in discontinuing overflights since the end of the Western European/Axis Power/Soviet Confligration of the Second World War. Oops...I forgot to mention that the United States was sucked into the confligration to bail out all participants. So I'm driving to work, notice the Weeks barge picking up Redbirds for 'reefing,' look up into the sky and there I see the Hydrogen suspended Diragible HINDENBERGH. Gas is good, flatulence MAKES TRAINS GO. CI Peter
Dave, this seems like the ultimate trick question. I can even see the Stillwell Avenue highway bridge in the background.
Where do you think it is?
I was thinking it was Queensborough Plaza before they ripped down the north side. Maybe I was wrong.
Ah.
No, it couldn't be QP anyway, because all four tracks were two levels.
Yeah, as soon as I posted my theory I realized that very fact. Oh well. I never saw a photo of Stillwell Ave. with that trackway in place before that one.
If you mean the abandoned trackway, I think it is still there but obscured by platform extension and walkways.
Where was that trackway supposed to go again? Thanks.
Connected to the Lower Level Culver/Brighton tracks heading toward West 8th.
Ok, thanks. That what I had thought all the while but I was confused when someone else mentioned that they went down to the street or something (trolley?) Any idea when the were ripped out? Was 7 track a thru track also or did that always end in a block? Thanks.
I know very little for certain about the track pattern as to when it was connected, if ever. My understanding was that G track (7) was connected but H not. Or maybe H but not G. If its was ever connected it went very early.
If people wete talking about trolley tracks, that was the Norton's Point Line, whose structure continued right over Stillwell Avenue on the same level as the Culver tracks. It's purpose was to enable Culver trains to continue running to Norton's Point after the connection, but they decided not to do this and the elevated trains were replaced with trolleys.
I rewrote my last post a little to make it a little clearer.
I know very little for certain about the track pattern as to when it was connected, if ever. My understanding was that G track (7) was connected but H not. Or maybe H but not G. If its was ever connected it went very early.
My impression was that there was a connection, but it's only my impression.
If people were talking about trolley tracks, that was the Norton's Point Line, whose structure continued right over Stillwell Avenue on the same level as the Culver tracks. It's purpose was to enable Culver trains to continue running to Norton's Point after the completion of the elevation of the former surface lines and completion of Stillwell terminal (or "New West End Terminal," as it was also called). While the terminal was under construction they decided not to do this and the elevated trains between Stillwell adn Sea Gate (Norton's Point) were replaced with trolleys, which were succeeded by the current Mermaid Avenue bus.
I read your post and I was very intrigued by what you wrote so I decided to do some research. From my finds and by what you wrote I am going to assume that.....
the Culver line was proposed to go through here underneath the tower. Having decided to use trolleys from this point, the beginning of the Norton's Point trolley terminal was here as viewed from the street.....
Norton's Point connection
above Stillwell Ave. with two tracks and room and canopies on the sides. Iron work looks like that of a typical BRT/BMT elevated station.
Stillwell Terminal
Very strange that in the street connection picture it appears that the pedestrian walkway coming from 8/H track Stillwell terminal is built over railroad ties suggesting that there was a phsyical connection there at one time between the West End and the Culver. It is said on this site that there was a connection from 7/G track to the Culver and not from 8/H track. I think I will still wonder about the block end of 8/H track and the way the steel work was built suggesting a connection to the Culver as seen from the picure in the original post of this thread. Here is another picture of Stillwell terminal after it was completed with what appears to be another walkway toward the trolleys. Left side of the postcard. Very different looking.
This Site
Continuing with the trolley, I gather that when it left the terminal it now descended a ramp to ground level .....
Down the Ramp
and proceeded on a private right of way between Mermaid and Surf to 37 St.
Any corrections welcome. Thanks for the info, Paul.
What you wrote essentially summarizes my understanding of the situation. I'll make a few small clarifications.
First, I will correct myself. Track G (7) was connected to the Culver/Brighton lower level. The connection probably lasted very late, 1950 or so, but almost certainly no later than 1954, when the Culver went IND. The only thing in dispute is whether Track H was ever connected. But it is certain the structure to connect it was there if they wanted it.
Also, the elevated trains went into Sea Gate, to end at Norton's Point. I'm not sure when service was cut back to W37th Street.
Note again in this picture, that the rooms underneath the tower are an obvious later addition, and that the connections for the girders to carry two tracks over Stillwell Avenue are still clearly visible.
When was Sea Gate enclosed?
Before the elevated service ended. That is, earlier than October 1919.
The name "Norton's Point" long survived the conversion to private community Sea Gate, and long long after the end of (I believe his name was) "Thunderbolt" Mike Norton.
Signs in Stillwell still pointed you to "Norton's Point Buses" at least into the '60s.
Thanks, Paul
Anything to advance interest in transit history, and help a fellow Subtalker. :)
That pic show the former tower occupied. It has been abandoned in the past few weeks. It will remain during and after the Stillwell reconstruction, but the downstairs "addition" will be removed, returning the original "look" of the tower. I was told the Signal Dept occupied that building last.
Bill "Newkirk"
The 'water-boiler' looking object to the right of the
overpass was the giveaway.... that same 'boiler'
can be seen in any other Stillwell Ave photo on
this site... primarily with the r27/r30 class.
So.... what's the prize, Dave?
It has to be the West End at Stillwell. If you look at the pix of the B on the Stillwell page, you can see the sharp turn into the track and the low buildings that are consistent with the pic. AFAIK, that's the only place in the system where such a turn into an island platform with a bumper on an el capable of running Standards could exist/have ever existed. The tank is another clue. Another is if you look to the right of the tank, you can also make out the point of what must be the Culver canopy. And, if you brighten the picture, give a good look underneath the structure at street level.
Polo Grounds
Lookit the VW micro-bus.... so ok, the '60s and a BMT Standard, so Probably Brooklyn, thous it might be Astoria..... Nah... the curve aint right for there.
Might be Coney Island,
Or it might be out at Broadway Junction.
Coult also be out at the end of the old Jamaica.
Now lets look at the other answers....
Elias
I havent read all the message responses yet so I dont know if anyone noted the correct location
IT IS the Stillwell Terminal of the west End line ---looking NORTH from the Boardwalk end of the terminal --the Westerly track is shown. LOOK AT GRELLERS BOOK - SUBWAY CARS OF THE BMT ---page 30, lower right ---an overhead track level view of the SAME location showing remains of the original thru-track on the structure skeleton in YOUR photo ---and an extended wooden passageway built over on on that dis-used track structure to the BMT Head House terminal is seen in THAT picture ---with a BMT standard on the track in the same locale. The track level shot --showing a BRT trolley on street level (deck Roof BRT car at lower left) looks like a 1930 to 1940's era view in the Greller Book photo by old friend Ed B. Watson. Both your and this photo are the SAME location.
Regards - Joe
TO DAVE ---and Paul Matus
Well, Dave P or Paul (Mr. BMT) M, any questions of authenticityy on my placement of the Stillwell Photo ? I Noted no more posting-query about it.
Do I recall seing a posted answer of " Polo Grounds "?? - with BMT Standards ??--ummm, aaaahhhh
The ONLY steel cars on the Polo Grounds "IRT" line were Hi-V and Low-V units in shuttle service from respectively 1950-54 and 1954 thru mid 1958. Standards couldnt fit thru the narrow Sedwich tunnel and would have greatly modified the wood-planking platform edges on the line, including Jerome Ave Line El stations...
Hey----- Paul, (I MUST remember to keep both THOSE 2 words fairly separated on here) --remember (heh) when you related to me the time you and I were on the Brighton line in (you said it was 1907, I said 1903) long ago, and you stepped off the BU gate car steps at night on our way home --and fell, rolled down the new embankment because (heh heh) you forgot (heh heh) --
that we weren't riding the train on the "street level" like we last did in the end of the Brighton Steam era !!
BTW, did you ever salvage that nice Straw Hat and Ascot in the roll down the embankment. I couldnt help you 'cause the electric BU El train started pulling out fairly fast.
Fond Memories (heh heh) over coffee at Harrys Place!!
Regards Dave and Paul ---Joe
HeyJoe (am I inventing a new subtalker?)--
Yeah, the fact it was at Stillwell has long since been established, but the thread kept rolling as people often don't read all the posts.
BMT Standards on the Polo Grounds shuttle is rather a novel idea. Now that was a line! We all miss abandoned lines, but some are more missable (?) than others. A lot of interest in a few stations!
I miss the Myrt, but the surviving part north of Broadway is much more interesting than B-J to Broadway. The really interesting part--before my time! ;( began south of B-J.
Similarly, the abandoned part of Jamaica was not a thrill-a-minute, though others may disagree.
The Franklin Shuttle would have been a huge loss, though I miss old Franklin Avenue station.
P.S. I didn't get my bowler or ascot back. Some dang kids ran off flying them at the ends of the sticks they were using for hoop rolling.
I miss the Myrt, but the surviving part north of Broadway is much more interesting than B-J to Broadway. The really interesting part--before my time! ;( began south of B-J.
Similarly, the abandoned part of Jamaica was not a thrill-a-minute, though others may disagree.
Perhaps, because you've ridden these now gone sections. I've never ridden the 3rd Ave el, Lower Myrtle and I only have vague childhood recollections of riding J trains east of Queens Blvd.
I hear you. I'm just saying that some abandoned lines would not be especially interesting if they were still around, but others were super.
The one I really wish I got a chance to ride would be the lower Myrtle line. It just seemed like such a cool line. Although if it did survive, it would probably look a lot different today than it did when they abandoned. Gone would be all the woodened platforms, and old stations. The closest comaparision to what the lower Myrtle would look like today would be like stations like Van Sicklen, Norwood, etc on the J.
It would NOT look like it did in 1969, although would still be a cool el. Either they would have had to totally rebuild/strengthen the old el, or lighter cars would be running there, but either way, the stations and the whole feel of the line would have been a more modern appearance than the memories people have, or the photos that survive show.
Chris
The Myrtle L did not look like itself to the end. By the early '60s they had "renovated" the station houses in the ugliest possible way. The coal stoves were gone for electric heaters. The stained glass windows were pulled and the stations "resided" in painted plywood or something like. Ugly, ugly, ugly. Of course, the BUs were gone in favor of the mess they made of the Qs.
Most interesting things in the last section of the old Myrt, from a railfan point of view, were Broadway station, the fact that you could still see the connections for the Lex, 5th Avenue, and even Park Avenue (!) and the bridge over Flatbush Avenue extension. The view of Fort Greene Park was nice too, even though, in that era, noone was in the park. Noone who wanted to be sure of living anyway.
What amazes me is that the Broadway station looked intact right into the mid to late 1980's. I was just about old enough in the mid 80's to explore the subway on my own, and remember looking uo at the Broadway station about 1985 from the Myrtle Platform, and the signs were still there. They said BROADWAY with (MYRTLE AVE) in a little smaller letters and (). It still looked like a station, and a few stairways leading up to it.
There was also a great "overpass" between the two in use Myrtle platforms and an addition closed off connection to the station with woodened floor decking from the overpass as well. It was fun to stand up there and watch the J and M come in from the air. That lasted until the early 90's I believe.
It's amazing that that remnant of the Myrtle El at Broadway station lasted almost 20 years after abandoning the line. I was sort of sad when they closed in the platform up above in the late 80's or early 90's.
Yup, there were even tracks all the way to Lewis Ave. until recently. When I first discovered that station (1985ish), it looked, from the lower level, like it had been in use only the day before.
That's what amazed me about it. (I also discovered that station about 1985 when I was in high school) I knew nothing of the story of the Myrtle Ave El back then and didn't realize it was abandoned that long, as it did look like the trains could still roll through. The tracks went all the way down to where the M line started it's turn onto Broadway, although the switches were out already I believe.
Here's some photos of the old station. I have seen some better ones with a view of the old signs still up, but couldn't find them after a quick search.
The R42 with it's old stripe there, almost looks like the R46's! And even a bit like the LIRR M1's
Incidentally, I couldn't believe that the building to the right was already abandoned in the 60's (I've seen photos of the Myrtle el cars riding by, and all the windows are blown out. I remember standing there looking at it with doors closing boarding the windows up for as long as I can remember. They actually started to fix it up recently and for the first time in maybe about 50 years it has windows!
I meant the "building on the left" in the text at the bottom of my previous post.
>>> Here's some photos of the old station. <<<
This one is my favorite, although it shows more of the lower station and the connecting stairways than the upper station.
Tom
Ah yes, that is a nice one. Just above the middle track and slightly below the Myrtle El tracks, you can see that old woodened walkway overpass connecting the two in use platforms and the Myrtle El station I was talking about earlier in the thread. It lasted into the early 90's and you could get a good view of the abandoned station from that overpass.
Were those lamp posts actually painted orange, or is that a "primer" on them?
Lol, yeah, that's a pretty bad color combination. It seems silly that they would do the primer like that - each lamp is at the same point in it's "paintjob" - but anything's possible. Maybe it was a poor variation of this lampost scheme at Seneca Ave on the M? At least the one at Seneca doesn't look like primer!
Those lamp posts are attractive, that is a more pleasing two tone paint scheme!
You know what's also funny about some of the paint-jobs they used to do at stations? In the photo of Seneca Ave in the above post, notice how there are at least four different colors in that station visable (there may have been more in the parts of the station not showing) Some of the colors don't even seem to match! The lamp posts are blue and white, the top of the canopy is green and the supports seem to be silver! Who knows what color the doors, windows, and walls of the station were to add to that list!
In the photo of Seneca Ave in the above post, notice how there are at least four different colors in that station visable (there may have been more in the parts of the station not showing) Some of the colors don't even seem to match! The lamp posts are blue and white, the top of the canopy is green and the supports seem to be silver!
It created a nice effect, though. A single-color or even two-color scheme would've been less interesting.
For the longest time I have wanted to get hold of an old BMT map from the 40's or 50's in which all 16 routes are mapped out and their numbers given along the route. If any maps exist I would like to know and would be willing to buy one if possible. For a BMT fan like I am, aside from about five of the lines I am completely ignorant of the others. Anyone able to help me out?
For a BMT fan like I am, aside from about five of the lines I am completely ignorant of the others.
Do you mean you don't know the routings? If so, this might help...
1 - Astoria - Broadway (usu Loc) - Brighton (usu Loc)
2 - QBP or Astoria (until 1961), Queens Loc (1961-1964) - Broadway Loc - 4th Av Loc
3 - 57th St - Broadway Exp - West End
3 - Nassau St Loop - West End
4 - 57th St - Broadway Exp - Sea Beach (the best line in the system!)
5 - Park Row - 5th Av - Culver
5 - Nassau St Loop - Culver
6 - Park Row - 5th Av - 3rd Av
7 - Fulton/Franklin - Prospect Park and any longer workings including that section
8 - QBP - Astoria
9 - QBP - Flushing
10 - Metropolitan - Nassau St (the 2nd best line in the system!)
11 - Metropolitan - Park Row
12 - Lexington Av (Brooklyn)
13 - Fulton St and Fulton St Peak Dir Exp
13 - 14th St - Fulton St - Lefferts
14 - Broadway (Brooklyn) Loc (some to Jamaica, some to Canarsie)
15 - Broadway (Brooklyn) Loc - Jamaica (Express, or skip-stop with 14)
16 - 14th St - Canarsie
17 - not used in practice
Of course, numbers 1-9 were eliminated or replaced by letters quite some time before 10-16, so there was a time when the BMT number system actually followed on from the IRT numbers.
You need the 30's. None of the maps keyed numbers along the routes, but they had detailed service descriptions. The ERA reprinted the 1939 map, but it's also out of print (I think) and you might end up paying an "original" price for a reproduction. They (original and copy) show up on eBay from time to time.
Also see, from bmt-lines.com:
1939 service guide
and from right here:
1939 map
Are there any differences between the two maps, BMT 39 original and copy?
I've never been able to compare the two, so I don't know.
I don't think that orange. I doubt it's primer either. I think it's a kind of faded rust red, maybe also modified by the photo developing.
>>> maybe also modified by the photo developing. <<<
Not so much the developing as the aging of the photograph. All the colors seem to be "washed out," which is typical of most 40-50 year old color photos or slides.
Tom
I don't think those are primer, a number of stations on the Jamaica el had sheds and lamps painted that shade of (light) red.
The platform lamps were removed in the 80s and then new ones were installed about 5 years ago. The new ones are the same as the old ones except they're a little taller and have sodium lamps. You'd think they'd put them in at Broadway Jct (J) - but NO, the damned goosenecks...
wayne
That "Metropolitan Avenue" sign on that R-27/30 looks as though it was borrowed from an R-16. Look at this pic:
That does look like the same rollsign.
For all we know, those curtains might have ended up in R1/9's as well. I've heard many argue that "Brighton Bch" wasn't on many of them, but I know what I rolled to and saw it "backwards" from inside the dropped hatch on many a train I ran. Hell, some of them actually spelled out "BEACH" here and there. One big happy Starfleet. :)
They probably borrowed the Brighton Beach signs from R-32 destination roller curtains when those cars received the multicolored route signs. I wonder if any of those particular R-1/9 curtains were saved. Mine have the usual IND terminals with nothing unusual.
I have NO idea of how or where. Frankly, didn't care. The rule was "look for it, if it's there, show it - if it's not, roll the beast to the end and charge up." Heh. It just wasn't one of those things you thought about. A *lot* of roll signs had thread in them where they clearly stitched stuff in, others that had BB on them DIDN'T appear to be stitched ... you just cranked them, hoped the gears worked (turning the rolls by hand SUCKED) and there you were. Often they'd already be set - towards the end, put-ins of R1/9's made their appearance day after day after day on the same line, defect sheets and bad order tags completely ignored. :)
This pig burned you yesterday, and today ... charge it up, no problem found. IT'S BAAAAAAAAAACK! By the time you got it to 34 Street, it would be dragging a car again and wouldn't take power anymore. Same old, same old. But often the signs didn't NEED to be changed since that puppy would get laid up as what it was and like FrankenValve, it'd be back doing it again the next day. CC's would sleep at Concourse, D's would go back to Coney ... like sands through the hourglass, so were the days of R9's. Heh.
But a good number of the D's DID have Brighton up front on the south motor. Many of them were tagged as EE, GG, HH or CC in the middle though. We didn't care about the stupid signs (no offense) ... not laying down on the railroad was what we REALLY worried about. Calling for the ball pein squad and getting "did you check this? Did you cut this out? Did you smack this valve?" before they gave it last rites and towed it out ... only to show up again the next morning. :)
Your account of different signs in the middle of a train reminds me of the very last A train of R-10s I rode on back in 1979 or 1980. The north and south motors had obligatory A signs; however the other eight cars had CC signs. They must have taken an 8-car CC train and slapped an additional car onto each end. Needless to say I was tickled to death when this train pulled into 59th St. while waiting to take a CPW express joyride. It didn't disappoint me.
FWIW, both of my IND bulkhead destination curtains have numerous splices.
Back in the mid '50s, before new car purchases began to really mess up the pre-war systems, you had a short list of lines you could be on if you saw the car type, or vice versa. Seeing or riding anything other than the following was a treat and a photography moment:
R10 - IND A Line
R1/9 Everywhere else IND
BMT Triplexes - Brighton Express, Sea Beach Express (part)
BMT SIRT Cars - Culver Line
BMT BU Convertibles - Myrtle L
BMT Multis - Myrtle-Chambers (almost all)
BMT R16s - Jamaica Line, Broadway Short Line (few), Myrtle-Chambers (rare), Canarsie (one or two, sometimes)
BMT Standards - eveywhere else
IRT R12, R14, R15 - Flushing Line
IRT R17, R21, R22 - 1 and 6
IRT Lo-V, Steinway, Flivver - 2,3,4,5, 3rd Ave. el stub
I'm not sure if there was another time in the post WW-II era where what you rode was where you were, if you know what I mean.
I look with nostalgia at the wooden station platform and protective backs you could actually look out over to see the street, not corrugated metal sheets that block the view. [Sigh]
The outer part of the platforms at Marcy Ave are still low enought to look over. And it looks like they're putting in new sections that let you look through (N/E S/B Marcy Ave).
Speaking of which, anyone know why those new sections have handrails on them? (Again, N/E of the S/B plat). They're black gate like sections with silver handrails like on the staircases.
the lower Myrtle line. It just seemed like such a cool line. Although if it did survive, it would probably look a lot different today than it did when they abandoned.
Yes, I rode on that one. I remember the cars and the platforms. I was sure that I found the OLDEST cars still running on the system.
The new cars for that line (The R-39s) were on the drawingboard when the plug was pulled on that line. They would have served on the 3rd Ave. el too, making them the only cars that would have been ordered for both A and B divisions.
FIVE WHACKS WITH A LEATHER THONG ON THE ONE WHO ORDERED THEIR DESTRUCTION!
Elias
The really sad thing is that the TA was figuring they had to go keep those lines running, but the political culture of the time was so directed to other things (it was the '60s, war, poverty, riots) and there was so little constituency with a real transit focus, that it dawned on the TA that they could dump the lines entirely.
"Way cool," the TA said (or would have said, if that expression existed at the time) "we can get rid of two branch lines that are a pain to maintain, AND we don't have to worry about maintaining another class of equipment. It doesn't get better than this!"
An interesting side note is that, if the R39s had been built, it would have been the only time a common piece of passenger equipment was ever purchased to run on both "A" and "B" divisions or their predcessors.
How would the R39's have handled the northern part of the M line, where it had to share the line with the regular BMT sized equipment? I know the old el cars had little extenders to deal with that problem as they were also IRT/Old BMT el dimensions.
Also were the clearences also narrower on the Myrtle el, or could they have simpley "shaved" off the platforms (like on the Astoria line) if the had the lightweight R39's built to "normal" BMT standards?
I guess the same question goes fot the 3rd Ave el, if it wasn't intermingling of the other IRT lines.
>>> I guess the same question goes fot the 3rd Ave el, if it wasn't intermingling of the other IRT lines. <<<
The 3rd Avenue El did mingle with the IRT White Plains line above Gun Hill Road, and had to go over IRT tracks to get to any yard. Cutting back its own station platforms would not have by itself allowed wider cars.
Tom
>>> I guess the same question goes fot the 3rd Ave el, if it wasn't intermingling of the other IRT lines. <<<
The 3rd Avenue El did mingle with the IRT White Plains line above Gun Hill Road, and had to go over IRT tracks to get to any yard. Cutting back its own station platforms would not have by itself allowed wider cars.
Tom
That's what I wanted to know, so obviously they had to keep the cars to IRT/Old BMT sized cars. The Myrtle line may have been easier to do this with (again I don't know about clearances other than the stations) as it didn't have the problem of IRT clearences outside of it's own line. However, the cars had to be lighter to operate on the old el, so they still have to be lighter. It obviously would have been cheaper to buy only one set of lightweight cars for both the Myrtle and the 3 Ave els instead of a standard IND/BMT sized car and a IRT/Old BMT el sixed car, so I assume the Myrtle would have retained it's narrower sized cars.
R39s would have been IRT sized cars. apparently it was not possible to use wider cars on the Myrtle without major structural work, unlike on Fulton (different structure built by a different company) where the issue was mainly shaving platforms and moving wayside furniture.
I don't know how they planned to handle upper Myrtle. They probably would've used extenders again. It was OK on the Qs, so it should have been OK on the R38s. I don't more if that would pass legal muster in these litigious times, if anyone got hurt.
Put a different way, I never heard they had an exotic way of dealing with the issue, like mechanical gap fillers.
Aside from gap fillers or mechanical gap fillers at the stations north of Broadway, it may have had to be sort of a shuttle between between Myrtle-Broadway and Jay Streets. Like you said, in these litigious times, it might not have been possible to run in revenue service north of Broadway at those stations the same way they did at the end of Myrtle service. (of course deadheading to Fresh Pond yard when they needed to would not have been a problem.) Not an ideal situation, but better than what we have now. It wouldn't have been the end of the world for the "north of Broadway" M riders to have to transfer and go upstairs, with Broadway-Myrtle being the terminal. J line riders would have had to do that anyway, so who cares if the "north of Broadway" M riders would have had to also. Just a thought...not ideal...but a lot better than no service to Bridge-Jay.
Knowing the thinking of the time, I doubt they would have opeated an elevated shuttle. You have to remember that the Myrtle from Metropolitan to Jay Street was the core service. What is now the M was rush-hour only. They would preferred not to operate the M full time (or even worse, two shuttles, yikes!), which they would considered redundant with the J Line, and increasing overall operating mileage. Especially not in 1969.
So I think that if they actually got the R39s they would have figured out a way to operate them end to end.
Hi Paul,
You say that the new light weight (R39) cars were on the drawing board when the line was slated for abandonment. I remember reading the article and seeing an artist's rendition of the new cars in the Brooklyn Eagle when I was a teenager. I only wish I had that copy today. Just one question: To your knowledge did the TA ever contemplate using R12/R14 IRT cars prior to deciding to have new cars (R39) built. I also heard that tests were made with a set of R12/R14 cars with the dynamic brake circuit disabled due to the fragile condition of Myrtle Ave. lower. Any information appreciated.
Best wishes,
Bob
You say that the new light weight (R39) cars were on the drawing board when the line was slated for abandonment.
Someone else used the term "on the drawing board." It was included in the Capital Plan and information released to the press. So I suppose there were renderings. I have no idea if it actually got to the contract drawing stage.
I remember reading the article and seeing an artist's rendition of the new cars in the Brooklyn Eagle when I was a teenager.
Most have been one of several papers (there's one now) that appropriated the Brooklyn Eagle name but had no connection to the original paper, which closed in 1955.
Just one question: To your knowledge did the TA ever contemplate using R12/R14 IRT cars prior to deciding to have new cars (R39) built. I also heard that tests were made with a set of R12/R14 cars with the dynamic brake circuit disabled due to the fragile condition of Myrtle Ave. lower. Any information appreciated.
I never heard that. Maybe someone else knows more.
The new cars for that line (The R-39s) were on the drawingboard when the plug was pulled on that line. They would have served on the 3rd Ave. el too, making them the only cars that would have been ordered for both A and B divisions.
I never knew that. How depressing! It's a shame they didn't go through with it. If the el would have lasted only a few more years, it may have survived to today.
>>> If the el would have lasted only a few more years, it may have survived to today. <<<
Not the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan. It would have tumbled into a pile of rust by now. Even in the early ‘50s, when a train stopped in a station you could feel the station move a bit. It was a fun ride, but somewhat disconcerting.
Tom
Remember watching Dean Street Station on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle do a little dance, that one was scary
Anything like the Jamaica EL between ENY and Cypress Hills?
[Was the rickety state of the 3rd Avenue el in the bronx] Anything like the Jamaica EL between ENY and Cypress Hills?
I'd say not as bad when the Old Main Line was at its worst. They could have held the 3rd together indefinitely the same way, if they wanted to, with steel and chewing gum.
>>> Anything like the Jamaica EL between ENY and Cypress Hills? <<<
I really do not know. Although I regularly boarded trains on the 3rd Avenue El, so was standing in the station when the train stopped, I was generally a rail fan traveling on the other els and did not get off the train at any station (except Stillwell). It was hard to judge how much structure moved while on the train.
Tom
Actually even the dual contract els shake quite a bit when a train is coming. I used to use the Forest Ave station on the M line, and if a train stopped at Seneca Ave, the whole structure would move. You always would know if a train was coming soon.
Not the 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan. It would have tumbled into a pile of rust by now. Even in the early ‘50s, when a train stopped in a station you could feel the station move a bit. It was a fun ride, but somewhat disconcerting.
Tom: That reminds me of the old 125 Street Pier used by the Day Line boats. The pier was in a ramshackle condition by the late 1950's. It was an even money bet that if the crew forgot to cast off one of the lines the boat would probably drag the pier up to Bear Mountain.
Larry,RedbirdR33
When did they move to Pier 81? The TV spots for the Dayliner in the late 60s mentioned it was at the foot of W. 41st St.
Go to Elder Ave (Pelham Line), Pelham Bay Park-bound platform, at the 10 car marker.
Easily a 5.5 on the Richter Scale.
--Mark
Kind of like that Triplex collision in 1955.
HEY---"Hello" Paul
New sub talker ---moi? --I use to be here a while ago you know --- and moved on (you know to where & what)...
Yeah---the Park Row to Sands Street Complex --to Bridge Street Myrtle station section was before our time - just barely for me ---but have plenty of 5x7 photos of that complex in operation and abandoned.
Now THAT was one busy, "h-EL-l" of an involved complex...can you imagine Flourescent lit aluminum R-type toasters whining and squealing around those twin upper-level Myrtle turn around loops at Sands Street today --- or running across the Bklyn Bridge.
What short sighted people our "parents's tax dollars at work" paid politicians were back then...and what is Cadman Plaza today ---on my last look 8 years ago, a plaza park with benches, trees, littered with trash, and tons more of auto-emission polution coming off the BB into it...and no rapid transit to the bridge or the riverfront areas. Oh, yeah, we all use cars today, I forgot...." GO THE AUTO COACH WAY " - variation of an old "5th Ave Coach Company" busses roof-side --(MOTOR Coach) slogan ---remember?
I have an IRT Contract-plan-drawing S-12272 dated 9-18-1928 - showing a plan for the IRT to replace Manhattan Railway Co. wood el cars with a lightweight steel el car designed somewhat loosely on what later was to be the IRT 1939 Worlds Fair Car body but with a clerestory standard sloping-ends (railroad style) roof. These cars showed maximum traction trucks identical in dimensions to the then ex-subway wood-steel composite cars used on the Manhattan els. This 1928 planned class of cars was - of course, never built...which saved the IRT wood el cars' existence til the mid 1950's
Glad to see you came out OK after all these years from the Brighton tumble in (you said) 1907
-the hell with the straw hat and ascot--at this point - out of style now anyway !
Regards ------Joe
Yup, Joe, (or HeyJoe, or ... oh, never mind!),
There's some great stuff that'll never be seen again. And, as you pointed out, the IRT and BMT had plans that never got much past the drawing stage, just like the lamented IND Second System.
As to the Ascot and hat, I guess I should just let it go, but think what I could get for them now on eBay. They were originals!
Looks like Stillwell and Mermaid to me
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have seen the flyer for this excursion, and notice that Steeplecab 6 will be pulling the D types on this trip.
I assume that the D's can still run under their own power, and was wondering if their being towed all around the system could be detrimental to their traction motors or wheels.
Will they still be able to draw power for lights and fans?
The D's can still run under their own power. I think the plan would be for the Loco 6 to run one way, and the Ds to run the other way.
As for questions about lighting and fan power, all of that will be running as long as the cars aren't off the 3rd Rail.
This type of excursion is not new, but it hasn't been done in decades. There's a picture in the book called Gotham Turnstiles which shows Steeple Cab #6 and the D Types on the ENY Flyover.
-Stef
Stef,
If I understand this correctly, you're thinking that the steeple cab will be pulling the D's in one direction, and the D's will pull the steeple cab in the other.
Thanks for the help!
Right!
-Stef
Karl: Stef is right. This kind of a fantrip has been run a few times previuosly and the Steeplecab gets something of a rest while the D-Types do the work.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
This question - whether towing an operational car is potentially damaging - is more interesting than it sounds. I would encourage someone who actually knows what they're talking about to chime in, but here's my impression.
On four-motor cars (or locomotives) where the motors have been cut out, towing the car needs to be done in the direction that the motors are set. If you have the reverser set in one direction and are towing the car in the opposite direction, you create a feedback circuit in the car. Essentially, as I understand it, the motion of the car turns the motors and creates an electrical current. The manifestation of this is that one or more axles on the car will begin to turn backwards, a phenomenon which is obviously undesirable. I've witnessed this happen, I'm just not sure about the electrical principles.
I'm sure that this could potentially be a problem for #6, but I don't know how the motors on the Triplexes are set up so I'm not sure whether that would be an issue. On two-motor cars, feedback circuits like this do not occur (again, I'm hazy on the electrical principles behind this). If the motor trucks on Triplexes are divided into separate two-motor circuits, it wouldn't be a problem.
The way to prevent this is to cut out the motors and make sure the reverser is thrown in the direction the car is going. For "dead" cars, the way to do this is to manually throw the reverser - a very bad idea for a car that is on third-rail and is receiving current! At IRM, though, I've worked on cars in which the reverser only throws when you take the first point of power - hard to do when you've got the motors cut out.
Note that I got the scantily factual observations cited above at a museum, and not on equipment from the NY subway. Someone who knows what they're talking about (and, if possible, what I'm talking about!), please clarify - I'm interested in any insight into this.
Frank Hicks
Take the brushes out of the motors.
"Take the brushes out of the motors."
That works too, but isn't very handy if each car will be alternately motoring and being pulled as a trailer during the course of a trip.
Frank Hicks
It's not an issue with D-types since they are 2-motor equipment.
To be precise, each 3-section unit contains two motor and
two trailer trucks, each motor truck having 2 motors on it.
There are two GE PC-10 switch groups, one for each motor truck.
So, the dynamic loop does not exist and the cars can be merrily
towed around.
#6 is GE type M with, I'm pretty sure, 4 motors.
Of course, when towing a streetcar with a K controller, the
solution is simply to center the reverser, which causes
the motor pairs to be disconnected. On a PCC, pull the motor
cutout switches.
After a brutal hot day, severe thunderstorms roared through here, starting at 7pm and going till about 9:30pm. Lots of lightning bolts and wind. No power outahe here in Sea Cliff, but DSL service is down so I have to restrict my time online (modem, the ol'standby).
Lots of downed wires causing fires on the 25a corridor. Again, I'm pretty lucky to still have power.
On Newsradio 88, they said there is no LIRR service between Huntington and PJ, due to downed wires. What a wild night!
Lucky Thing I have Dial-Up Today, I gonna switch to AOL High Speed Broadband Cable Service. DSL is always affected during storms.
Always? Tsk tsk. Mine wasn't. And that was some wicked storm. I saw the Empire State Building take a few hits from my window.
I lost power for about 20 minutes. There were downed wires all over this island. It was a flip of the last transformer strike; across the road they had power, we didn't.
-Hank
On a transit related note, I heard on the B2 of AC power failures in the Rockaways, and Clinton Washington causing of suspensions of Fulton St Express service
While on the J (and taking a significant drenching trying to observe the platform), I saw many buildings in Brooklyn take hits, especially the clock tower on Atlantic Avenue, and I saw the Empire State take a few. It was impressive, and man was the rain comin' down!! (Note** this is the 4th time I took a drenching while working the J on Friday!!)
Hey Train Man Paul: I heard from a C/R on the Canarsie Line that Broadway Junction (the Elevated station complex) took a hit from a lightening bolt on Friday night's storm....did you hear anything about this?
I was on the expressway towards Manhattan a few times and have seen the Empire State (as well as the WTC) take lightning hits. The most recent one was a few weeks ago, when I saw the Empire State get hit. It would have made a great photo, as it was pretty spectacular.
Speaking of bad storms,last night we had one hear in Exton, Pa.
Our power flashed several times during the storm , but never went off.
Oddly enough, after the storm we lost it, for about 13 hours. I hate to open the windows and let all that humid air in, but we had no choice. Now, of course, it's back on and I can see what I missed
on Sub-Talk.
I think all around Philly was hit hard.
Chuck Greene
Verizon DSL has no problems. AOL BYOA is okay. That lightning lit up the whole block multiple times. Extremely bright. Knocked my Antenna out but DSL is okay. All is good. I can't imagine going back to dial-up.
I have Earthlink DSL - no problems at all during the storm. In fact it has been very reliable - the only time I had problems was for about 10 days or so immediately following 9/11. Earthlink DSL was down on the entire Northeast - but no problems at all since then.
Get Road Runner -- AOL SUX.
No, Im gonna get AOL, I like AOL services, they are more reliable to me. I have AOL Dial-Up Service Now, and my good brother has AOL High Speed Broadband Cable, and it is very good, I tried it already.
AOL and reliable are opposites
No, AOL has been very reliable for me, And I'm sticking with AOL all the way.
ok, but i have had some friends who have had serious problems with it
And I'm sticking with AOL all the way.
Oh Well.... AOL is not available out here.
The only connections available (broad band or otherwise are from the telephone cooperative) Heck, there is no place but Dickinson that we can call without incurring toll charges.
Heck, even Qwest has pulled out of this market.
BTW: My DSL connection costs about $100 a month. But since we have 14 computers using it the cost per node is around $7.00 a month, so that is not bad at all.
But then the phone company had only about 20 connections to the service in ourtwon, so you can see why the equipment costs must be spread over such a narrow customer base.
Elias
Where is this? Sounds like the place I just visited, Mooseonee and Moose Factory, Ontario, Only RR access, except By "winter road" when marsh freezes over, The train ride there is Awesome on their "polar bear express" the engines look like Fl-9s, They have an "internet" center, its open 1 hour a day with like 4 stations, talk about remote.
AOL DSL broadband has been very reliable for me as well. No problems in 6 months. Well, there was a problem once but that's because SW Bell was working on the lines so I can't blame AOL for that.
Cable Modems are faster than DSL, so I'm gonna stick wit the Broadband Cable, I also like the Instant Sign On.
Does it force you to run the AOL program to access the internet?
The thing I hated the worst about AOL is the forcible running of their program, which is a pretty bad interface.
The AOL program is bad because it's not compatible with some programs. A website that I use for work doesn't run well with aol. I don't have AOL, but some of the people I work with do, and they have a lot of problems when they do work from home online. I think they have to minimize the AOL interface, and open internet explorer, but since their connection is AOL they still have problems with it and accessing links, etc. That is one of the main reasons I didn't want to get AOL.
i cant access this site though aol this am. i am able to get though on the cable service
I use Internet Explorer sometimes, if a web page is not working with AOL. But AOL is reliable for me, I like the Buddy List to keep track of all my peeps and I like the E-mail.
It's interesting, but the Buddy List in the FREE AOL Instant Messenger has always been better than the AOL version. You can still talk with AOL people.
The buddy list isn't an MDI child, it's a taskbar level program, and so are all of the IM windows. You can press enter (no CTRL+ENTER) to send an IM, and getting an IM doesn't demaximize your web browser, it pops up on top.
AIM also lets you send files through IM and embed pictures and sound into IMs (assuming the other person agrees to this arrangement first).
I can't understand why AOL would give the better features to its non-paying customers and screw its paying customers.
I have to agree with you on that, I don't understand why AOL gives the non-paying customers better features on the buddy list, and then we have the krappy buddy list and we pay for it, I think I'm gonna e-mail them and ask them why are they doing this? Man, We are going wayyy of topic.
You can use AIM with AOL, just make sure you're signed on to AOL using a different screen name. Make sure you use your preferred screenname for AIM and the rest doesn't matter.
I can sign onto AOL with my Screen name and sign in with the same name with AIM.
But you will get all of your IMs in AOL, not via AIM.
Man, We are going wayyy of topic.
You can't get to far of track around here, because tracks are on topic!
: ) Elias
I can't understand why AOL would give the better features to its non-paying customers and screw its paying customers.
I cannot say for sure, because I simply do not know. But the problem with AOL is that they were the first (to open the internet to the public) in an age before browsers existed. The had to craft thier own protocols (keywords is one of these) to present content similar to today's webpages.
HTML and modern browsers grew up later (kinda like VHS overtaking Beta) and use standard TCP/IP protocols such as the AOL browsers do not. It if for this reason that many things, especially with java or Microsoft FrontPage extensions do not work well there.
If the AOL Messenger thing (And I won't use a product like that no matter what-- What a waste!) works better in a non AOL context then on their own because they are not working with a standard window or internet set of protocols or codes.
Interestinly, Europe and Asia have better TV sets than we do for the same reason, we built ours first, and then they built theirs after the technology was improved.
AOL is stuck makining things backward compatible with their olders stuff. Sooner or later they will have to ditch it. But maybe they will go bankrupt instead.
Elias
I cannot say for sure, because I simply do not know. But the problem with AOL is that they were the first (to open the internet to the public) in an age before browsers existed. The had to craft thier own protocols (keywords is one of these) to present content similar to today's webpages.
This is inaccurate. AOL did not offer internet access except via e-mail until 1994 or 1995. By that time, there were a number of direct ISPs offerring PPP access.
HTML and modern browsers grew up later (kinda like VHS overtaking Beta) and use standard TCP/IP protocols such as the AOL browsers do not. It if for this reason that many things, especially with java or Microsoft FrontPage extensions do not work well there.
The AOL browsers DO use standard TCP/IP protocol, otherwise they wouldn't be able to be on the internet at all. In fact, the built in AOL browser was an OCX control of Internet Explorer. I guess now they're switching over to Netscape, but AOL hasn't had its own browser in quite a while.
If the AOL Messenger thing (And I won't use a product like that no matter what-- What a waste!) works better in a non AOL context then on their own because they are not working with a standard window or internet set of protocols or codes.
This makes no sense. AIM connects to the same system that the internal IM/Buddy list system uses. They obviously had to provide a server to connect it to the internet. If there are features in the internet version, there is no reason why they can't make it available internally. There is also no reason why they can't write the external AIM so that it can be loaded as an MDI child of the AOL software. It works that way with IE, and now Netscape.
Actually they are making additional features (ie exchanging sounds, hitting enter to send a message, additional im sounds, making it easier to block im's, etc....) available in AOL 8.0. I have Earthlink DSL but also use AOL - BYOA, although I use AOL only for chats and certain other features - never the internet. I am currently beta testing version 8.0 - its pretty cool.
Actually they are making additional features (ie exchanging sounds, hitting enter to send a message, additional im sounds, making it easier to block im's, etc....) available in AOL 8.0. I have Earthlink DSL but also use AOL - BYOA, although I use AOL only for chats and certain other features - never the internet. I am currently beta testing version 8.0 - its pretty cool.
>>> But the problem with AOL is that they were the first (to open the internet to the public) in an age before browsers existed. The had to craft thier own protocols (keywords is one of these) to present content similar to today's webpages. <<<
Elias;
That is revisionist history. AOL was far from the first to open the internet to the public, if anything it was a johnny come lately.
AOL, like CompuServe and Prodigy, was a proprietary content provider, with phone lines leading to its own computers. CompuServe dated back to the days of CP/M, and 300 baud modems. AOL did not come on the scene until windows provided a graphical interface. It did a great job of marketing and brought many new computer users to the "on line" experience, and quickly passed the older more technical CompuServe.
When the internet started to become popular, AOL users were not connected to it, but several I knew thought dialing up to AOL was connecting with the internet. AOL finally became an IP when they saw a potential loss of their customer base to the internet. When they did interface with the internet, their implementation was woefully inadequate because they did not realize how many of their clients would want to surf the web rather than stay in AOL land. AOL ended up spending millions on new hardware to adequately connect their customer base to the internet. Their software was originally developed for their proprietary operation. The internet access software was an add on and not as efficient as software (browsers) specifically intended to connect directly from the user's computer to the internet.
Tom
The first AOL editions were for DOS, not windows.
-Harry
Over 1900 NYC Subway Photos
>>> The first AOL editions were for DOS, not windows. <<<
I stand corrected. I never used AOL, but I thought it was always a graphical interface, and the original Windows, 1.xx through 3.xx ran as an environment in DOS, coexisting with non-windows programs long before Windows 95 muscled in to take over the whole show.
Tom
AOL, like CompuServe and Prodigy, was a proprietary content provider, with phone lines leading to its own computers. CompuServe dated back to the days of CP/M, and 300 baud modems. AOL did not come on the scene until windows provided a graphical interface. It did a great job of marketing and brought many new computer users to the "on line" experience, and quickly passed the older more technical CompuServe.
Correct.... But were they not one of the first to offer web-page-like content with photos and all. Compuserve and Prodigy could not do that because jpg and gif had not been invented yet. In fact .gifs *are* compuserve graphics, but they were already on line with dial up content long before they invented these. And we will not try to explain what a .bmp file would have done on a 300 baud modem!
In those very old days, there were no web pages to look at anyway! The simplest hypertext markup language was all that could be done.
Sufice it to say that AOL tried to do its own thing its own way and was overtaken by events: other people doing things a better way.
Elias
Roadrunner and AOL are nearly the same thing, with RR you just don't get AOL's software. They're both owned by the same company.
-Hank
True, but straight IE runs and surfs a lot better than AOHell crap
I dont care AOL is the best internet in the world currently.
Your opinion.
Untrue of course, and unbiased tests on many levels have shown that.
DSL is always affected during storms.
Storms do not seem to affect our DSL.
And we get more storms than you do.
But then all of our telco sercice is underground; it is less than a mile to the switch, and then it is burried optic fiber.
Elias
So you go reset the whole system and its back in a few minutes or deal with dial up for a bit. You will still have your modem.
You may find this off-topic post funny:
Was at a LI Ducks game Friday, Quacker Jack, the mascot, ran inside as soon as the rain started & we never saw him again. The game was a wash out, as not one pitch ever occured, but my grandson annoyed everyone for a couple of hours with the quacker I bought him.
I happened to be railfanning the upper #1 line this past Friday evening with my camcorder, and after ducking into the Riverdale Diner for dinner just before the storm started, I ran back to the 238th St platform and videotaped a few #1 trains along with mother nature making sparks! Mother Nature won BIG TIME!
--Mark
Got that right! The lightning was springing everywhere!
Will you post those videos online or.... you can't? ;)
I'd love to see it. I had an early job the next day so I was sleeping and heard I missed one hell of a show.
See subject
And please don't say "it's an old fashioned traction motor that takes DC or low frequency AC that was installed on the GG-1". I want to know why the low frequency part is crucial, and how is it wound. Is it with the permanent magnets on the stator, or on the rotor, or both. And are the stator and rotor connected in series, and is this why it's called a series-wound motor? And if the two are connected in series, why is the "low frequency" part vital and what kind of commutator does it have?
AEM7
From what I've read the series connected motor has the greatest starting torque, greatest energy efficiency by weight and cost, and greatest durability out of all the types of electric motors. Thats why they still have to use them in autos and trucks for starter motors.
I can see what he's driving at though re: the "low frequency" question.
If you take the energy curve of an electric power system, the electrical system with the greatest mathematical "geometric area under the curve" is a pure DC system. If you form an equation in which the "Y" axis is the product of Voltage X Amperes (Voltage and Amperes being held constant), and the "X" axis is "Time"- a DC system "curve" will be a perfect Rectangle.
An AC system on the other hand, will produce a Sine curve. Its very clear that the area under a Sine Curve has to be much less than the area contained in a rectangle. To get around this "energy gap" inherent in all AC power systems, early engineers came up with the idea of using low frequency AC- because the area under a low frequency Sine curve is greater than the area under a high frequency Sine curve. Later on, Nicola Tesla realized that by using 3 AC alternators running 60 degrees out of phase with one another, the energy curve of a DC system could be approximated. The final advance in this arena was the minor modification of a 3-phase system into a 6-phase system by use of transformers. With the 6-phases operating 30 degrees apart, it came very, very close to a pure DC energy curve. All the rotary power converters used 6-phase AC input power.
The use of 60 cycle equipment lead to a great savings in capital costs- since the higher the operating frequency of the machine, the lower the purchase cost of the machine. A sixty cycle machine weighs less than a 25 cycle machine. Also by using 60 cycle power, the electric railroads could purchase their power needs commercially rather than maintain and operate steam turbine generator plants.
Although after the subway "brownout" the other day, they may have been better off keeping an independent power system after all.
bob d.
damn dude. you are a genius. i just learned something i've always wanted to know about electricity. thanks!
I'm glad you enjoyed it. This stuff is really very straight forward when you understand that in nature one "axis" will contain more than one "dimension"- and that the "dimensions" all interact.
The problem I always had, is most school teachers are not very strong in Geometry, and also have difficutly in explaining what a "dimension" or "plane" really is.
Bob d.
Bob, I feel I should point out a mathematical error in your
post. The amount of energy carried by a sine waveform does
not depend on frequency. There is a formula called Root
Mean Square (RMS) which gives the energy of the AC signal
referenced to a DC signal. Frequency is not in the formula.
Waveform shape is. What you're getting at is basically
ripple, but, that's not the real reason why low frequencies
such as 25 cy were chosen.
The frequency output of an AC generator is proportional to shaft
speed. Before the steam turbine was perfected, the generators
were driven by slow-moving stationary steam engines. Also, the
energy loss is greater with higher frequencies.
Which brings us back to AEM7's questions:
A series-wound DC motor is one in which the field and armature
windings are connected in series. This is in contrast to, e.g.
a shunt-wound motor where they are in parallel. In a series motor,
armature and field currents are the same (except of course when
field shunts are used), so the field winding consists of fewer turns
of heavier wire. In a traction motor, the field and armature
connections are made externally, through the reverser.
Series motors have maximum torque at starting, which is why they
are suitable for railway service, as Bob mentions.
The field winding creates the magnetic flux (there are no permanent
magnets). The armature windings also form an electromagnet and
the north and south poles of the armature attract and repel the poles
of the field to create torque. The commutator keeps the armature
polarity the same as it rotates. The motor works on AC as well
as DC, as the instantaneous polarity of field and armature currents
reverses in unison (since they are in series).
Both the field and armature windings have considerable iron (well,
actually, steel) in their magnetic path. This means high magnetic
flux for a given ampere-turns of excitation. Wonderful at DC.
However, this also means inductance, which creates an impedance to
current flow which increases linearly with frequency. In addition,
there is a property of iron called hysteresis. It is the magnetic
equivalent of friction. In a frictionless system, one could move
an object a certain distance to the left and then back to the starting
point with 0 net expenditure of energy. The fact that iron
has hysteresis means that with every AC cycle, some energy is lost
to this magnetic friction. THe energy loss increases as the
square of the frequency. For this reason, universal series motors
only work on fairly low-frequency AC>
I understand a DC series motor has to have a load when operating; otherwise it can fly apart.
Another reason why series motors are suitable for railway
service. The load is always connected.
Which is why, when testing a motor off the car, a low DC voltage is always used. No load, boom!! at 600V. Use 120 or so and rotation and possible binding can be found without rotational damage to the motor.
"In a frictionless system, one could move
an object a certain distance to the left and then back to the starting point with 0 net expenditure of energy."
But, of course, there is always entropy...
I don't see that many posts, and I'd been gone for four hours. Tomorrow, I have to go to the computer shop to exchange a PII motherboard, and I have to head to the store. Might even get some railfanning in if it isn't too hot. What are you guys all doing?
AEM7
I've been on SubTalk most of the Day because I've been trying to work on the website.
Alright, this post is gonna earn me some butt kickings from Mr. Nasodowski and proably a few others, but what the hey, here it goes anyway.
I have been thinking alot about dual mode operation, both in respect to the LIRR and MN, and also in respect to other systems that do not currently have DM service but might benefit from it.
But right now I have run up against some problems:
1. How much horsepower is needed for each Married pair of an M1? an M3? and M7? I thought about this because a Regenerating Gas Turbine (Yes, similar to the GT-Es, but today the GT-EIIs wouldn't need traps, the LIRR is all High Platform, also I think they used simple cycle gas turbines), would be ideal in this position, lightweight, high horsepower, and mechanically simple, at least compared to a Reciprocating Diesel DEMU. This brings me to another question, does anyone have any information on the GT-Es? What Turbines did they use? Was the transmission through a pnumatic exhaust gas over PTO turbine direct drive to the wheels (as in the Rhor Turbos)? or was it exhaust gasses over PTO turbine to drive a generator to drive the Traction Motors?
2 Why not just stick a Third rail shoe on a Shoreliner or C-3 cab car? Here you could justify a 4 car direct to NYP or GCT train without DM30ACs on both ends, and without fear of stalling on the third rail gaps. The C-3 would have the standard complement of third rail shoes, just like an M1 or 3, but would have no Traction motors, and instead would send it's power back to the DM30 at the other end of the consist. The intermediate cars would also need to be modified to carry the power, and the DM30 wouyld need a jumper to hook into whatever "stuff" there is to convert the 750 VDC into traction motor happy electricity.
3. Why not run MUs and then just stick a F40PH or something on the end of the train at the end of electrification? I realize that most MUs use their own type of Couplers, but still, couldn't the F40 be modified to use the same automatic coupler? The train would pull into the station at the end of the electrification, and while it used to be a transfer station, now a F40 just pulls up, couples on, performs an air test, the MU goes to Neutral (or perhaps waits to do that until they are truely clear of the electrification), and, with out the passengers ever going anywhere, the train continues out to the end of the line.
4. Does anyone think that the Wankel, or Quasitubine, have any chance of being a powerplant for an DEMU (I Guess that'd be a WEMU and QEMU).
Alright, a lot of your post flies right over my head, but I can give the standard responses (Phil will give the better ones later).
1. How much horsepower is needed for each Married pair of an M1? an M3? and M7?
For commuter service in a North American setting, about 700-800 hp per car would be ideal. The Metroliner had some 1,200hp per car but that is intended for some real kick-ass service. For DMU's, 800hp per car is pretty much the practical limit, unless some breakthru in diesel technology has taken place and I've not heard about it.
Yes, similar to the GT-Es
You're going to have to explain these GT-E and regenerating gas turbine things. My knowledge of turbine engines are not nearly as good as mine about things electrical. Now, the standard answer to not using apparently lightweight turbine engines are as follows:
(1) Turbines are high maintenance, because of high revs.
(2) Turbines are not suited to stop-start routines, especially like those on a commuter train. The turbine blades run hot, and too much thermal stress will kill it. The engines also go through an "unstable phase" between spinning up and spinning down -- again no good for your acceleration-intensive commuter service.
(3) Turbines consume a lot of fuel. Where are you going to put the fuel tank on that DTMU?
Reciprocating Diesel DEMU
What is a "Reciprocating Diesel" power plant?
2 Why not just stick a Third rail shoe on a Shoreliner... no traction motors, and instead would send it's power back to the DM30 at the other end of the consist. The intermediate cars would also need to be modified to carry the power
There lies your problem. You are first of all assuming fixed consist, which doesn't always happen. Now, you have seen the thickness of the third rail. To pass all that power through one linkage ain't that simple, and this is five linkages between the cab car and the locomotive. Do you really think it is safe to pass that much current under a metal passenger car?
3. Why not run MUs and then just stick a F40PH or something on the end of the train at the end of electrification?
Under the FRA regime, maintenance costs for push-pull consists work out much cheaper than MU's. I'm not saying the FRA regime is good or bad, I'm just saying that is the case today, and that is the reason why they hadn't done it (and probably part of the reason why SEPTA, NJTransit and MARC had been tending towards push-pull rather than all-MU operation).
now a F40 just pulls up, couples on, performs an air test, the MU goes to Neutral
Not only is that an involved procedure on an FRA railroad, it also causes havoc on a commuter railroad because of the intensity of the headways and the probability of something going wrong. Plus, that's more couplers to maintain. That is a reasonable proposition for the once-daily Amtrak train, but not for the half-hourly shuttle! You'd be carrying a lot of iron.
4. Does anyone think that the Wankel, or Quasitubine...
No idea who the hell they are.
AEM7
2 Why not just stick a Third rail shoe on a Shoreliner or C-3 cab car?
DC transmission cables need to be thick and heavy. You would run into both weight and connection issues as well as safety. A better plan would to just get Amtrak to allow trains w/ a single DM into Penn. If it ever gaps out they can just rev up the diesel and off it goes again. I mean DUH!
Does anyone think that the Wankel, or Quasitubine, have any chance of being a powerplant for an DEMU (I Guess that'd be a WEMU and QEMU).
The Wankel engine, aside from being unrelyable and generally sucking, is not scalable to larger HP's like a normal diesel is. A 150hp Wankle is one thing, but for 1000hp you can't just make one 10x the size, it would be WAY to heavy and way to cumbersome.
I will be online infrequently this weekend, because of connectivity problems. The bad storms and lots of lightning hit locally, and my DSL is out. Finally got through to AOL tech support and did some diagnostics and they said that it will take 72 hours for the phone company (Verizon) to look at the line. So as a result I will be online less frequently. Those storms were nasty, and LIRR must've had lots of problems tonight.
I refuse to give the phone company any more $$ for the extra dial up calls, and I'm still waiting for my RFM. I'm getting ripped off!!!
my DSL is out
I'm still waiting for my RFM
Does anyone else notice something not quite right here?
I'm just having some bad luck, that's all. Now if you think anything else is going on, than you're wrong.
Dial up costs more in the long run than DSL, especially if you spend alot of time online hanging out at Subtalk.
Well I won't be here this weekend, so have a good weekend y'all.
it is the "connected" age.
Why go DSL when there's Unlimited Regional Calling
which covers all those naggy-raggy dial-up calls
in one LOW steady rate....not to mention it also
covers calls to other area codes ALL TIMES.
Tho, Peter raised our 'brows!
Dial-up is slow and the dialing process is slow. I like being always connected.
Even if you have an unlimited calling plan, most broadband ISPs that also offer dial-up (mine doesn't, but I never needed it), charge you for that priviledge.
I personally would not want to sign up with a broadband provider that gives you free dial-up time each month. Why would a reliable broadband provider need to do such a thing?
What is an RFM?
He means Reduced Fare MetroCard.
-Stef
I didn't really notice this until I came home and transferred today's pics and examined them....
Yeah, those are cones on the roadbed.
Do the cones serve any practical purpose except to let onlookers know when the T/O didn't stop in time?
Is that a 9? You took those pics today?
Oh...it's an S. You know, with the glare and everything well...oh, I'll shut up. ~_~
It's an S at Grand Central Station. My camera and general photographing ability are pretty bad.
Nah, that picture is halfway decent considering the low light, etc. You didn't take a bad shot at all!!!
The cones, more than anythinge else might give passengers a hint as to where the train is going to stop. Presuming, of course that it is stopping in a place other than where it normally stops.
Elias
On this track especially, everyone wants to board the westernmost car. (Think about the platform arrangement at Times Square.) Nobody who's waiting for the train before it comes will wait by the cones. Besides, at the Grand Central end, as long as at least two trains are running, one train typically doesn't close its doors until the next one arrives.
Probably it's an off hour train and the cones are there for the train to stop at the center of the platform?????
The cones are there to tell the operator where to stop. This is the track that connects to the Lexington Ave line. Past the cones is a portable trip, and then a gate. No signal until past the gate, IIRC.
-Hank
no, i think that that is track 4, which connects to the 7th ave line at 42nd st, and dead ends at gct
That is 4 track. If I remember, the fixed stop is just beyond the cones, not by the block behind the cameraman (you.) That area where you were standing was boarded up for a while around the trackway while they were doing renevations to the stations. The bumper light is not close to the bumper at all but by the fixed stop (cones) and it is tucked under the platform. It is an old, small one and it doesn't grab your attention right away. So yes, the cones are there to remind the T/O where to stop because of the long and deceiving distance between the block and the fixed stop/tripper.
What is this car and where is it?
-Stef
#4280 at Shoreline.
Steve Loitsch
That's right! Actually, it was a giveaway, since it has an available caption. The trolley pole on the top of the car caught my attention. I was always under the impression 4280 didn't operate at BERA, but perhaps it did when it first arrived? It was in a better spot in the yard area than it is now.
-Stef
4280 was parked back in 1980 when I first saw it. I don't believe it has run under its own power since it arrived at Shoreline.
For the past few day I've been growing an interest in signal control and tower operating. Due to my limited knowledge on the subject I came up with a few questions
1. Can anyone provide somewhat of a signal simulator for the computer? I already have the ATS by a group affiliated with the MTA. I was wondering if there's any more (No BVE's please).
2. How can a person have a train switch tracks during rush hour? I just find it difficult to stop the trains without creating more of a delay on the line.
3. What's the annual salary for a tower man? Just in case I decide to pursue a carrear
4. What's the qualifications for a tower man? Again. For a career purpose
5. What's the busiest area for tower workers?
Thanks in advance
I'll take on number ONE - those who have more experience in current operations can take on the others. There's a signalling/tower simulation called NXSYS which just happens to be linked to from nycsubway org HERE ...
2. How can a person have a train switch tracks during rush hour? I just find it difficult to stop the trains without creating more of a delay on the line.
If they are on the ball they align a new route as soon as the last train clears the interlocking and then clear the signal. Depending on headways the next train would probably not see a stop or see the signal clear in front of them.
What happens if the do?
"What happens if the[y] do (see a stop or see the signal clear in front of them)"
They'd be slowing down or stopped at the red signal...and the railroad would be slowed down a bit.
If a TW/O was to drop a ball in front of an oncoming train in anything but an emergency, there'd be some 'splaining to do, and possibly some samples given.
TW/O is promotional from conductor, and I think, Station Agent. There are not open competitive tests for that position.
"How can a person have a train switch tracks during rush hour? I just find it difficult to stop the trains without creating more of a delay on the line."
Buncha IND stations have the junctions placed AFTER the platforms, so that if a conflicting train should have to wait, it'll be at a station platform.
Is that good design? I'm not sure. The downside is that passengers have no way to know if the train they're on is about to switch to the other track (unless they're at the front of the train and know how to read the homeball). Some stations, like 72nd IRT, have their local-express crossovers before the station in either direction; while that can increase waiting time in tunnels, there's also no question that any train that stops on the express track is running express or that any train that stops on the local track is continuing along the local track (alas, locals often bypass local stops even on the local track).
It's a good design in terms of railroad efficiency, by combining the stop times. Before the NTSB and WD's, trains could come into the pocket on Station Time while the road was crossing in front of them.
In terms of customer service, you just can't win. Everyone is gonna think an A is going to run express even if it shows up against the wall, and everyone is going to think a C is running local, even if its in the middle. Compouding the issue is the TA practice where express trains diverted to the local track still only make express stops.
As our C/O posters will repute, no amount of extra PA announcements will sink in to people who don't listen in the first place. And when "their train" doesn't stop "where it always stops" people get real indignant
It's a good design in terms of railroad efficiency, by combining the stop times.
Agreed so far -- unless the two tracks are at different platforms and the train that's on the unexpected platform is going to have to wait for everyone to run over.
In terms of customer service, you just can't win. Everyone is gonna think an A is going to run express even if it shows up against the wall, and everyone is going to think a C is running local, even if its in the middle.
Here I disagree. At least on the IRT, most regulars seem to know that if a train shows up on the express track, it's probably going to run express, and if a train shows up on the local track, there's a good chance it's going to make local stops.
Some people do seem to live in a fog. A few months ago, during the evening rush, I got on an uptown 5 train on the express track at Times Square. That's a common enough reroute that I think most rush hour passengers have a vague idea of what's going on when they see it. Yet you should have heard the angry comments in my car when we passed 86th! If it wasn't obvious that the stations looked different from the usual 5 stations, wasn't it a big clue that the train stopped at 72nd instead of 59th?
Compouding the issue is the TA practice where express trains diverted to the local track still only make express stops.
That depends. Normally, if it's an express that simply got the wrong lineup for no good reason, that is the usual practice. But if a GO has the express track closed, or the express track is being kept clear for some other reason, trains normally make local stops.
It's nice to know that if my train, whatever number it happens to be carrying, pulls into 72nd on the express track, it must be going express. If only I could be assured that a 1 train on the local track was necessarily going to make local stops!
Some people do seem to live in a fog
They're the ones who hold doors when they get confused. Regulars I'm not worried about!
Buncha IND stations have the junctions placed AFTER the platforms, so that if a conflicting train should have to wait, it'll be at a station platform.
You should come up to 145 St during the morning rush, and see this silly concept in action. With the current GO of express C and local D, trains are held outside the station while the crossover move is made - my B sits north of 145 until the D has cleared all the switches south of 145.
Bummer. Canal SB is now the same way, too.
All that stuff used to *WORK* with ST's ... granted, owing to scheduling in rush hour, when I came up from the concourse into homeball alley (125 to 145) I'd often have to creep south to 125 after "merging" with the A's. Sounds like the "excessive NTSB spacing" has taken its toll yet again. Believe it or not, the IND *used to* haul asp. Same for the IRT with 90 second headways before MY time. :)
I tell ya, if things get any worse than I'm hearing about, it's only a matter of time before the MTA issues SCOOTERS for the geese to get around the city ... :)
>>>3. What's the annual salary for a tower man? Just in case I decide to pursue a carrear <<<<
About 46K.
Peace,
ANDEE
""the Last ever "Low V" museum run ...........was done on
setember 9 1998 ,....am i right folks ???
what stopped them from running ever since ??
since the D triplexes do museum runs .....etc......
Why not the ""low Vs"" ..........????
...............................................!
Yes I believe you are right. I was on that trip. Wish they would run them again. They gave us a trip around two train yards, and quite a bit of territory in the Bronx.
I'm sorry I was unable to attend the event. But some SubTalker who was there said there was a problem on that trip. There were so many dead motors the lights started to dim inside the cars, and the train struggled to keep moving. I wish they would use the Low-V's again. The D-types are getting kinda old....
Problems with the propulsion system shouldn't affect the lighting. Additionally, I rode the D-Types on a Memorial Day Weekend fantrip this year, and they performed like champs.
David
How about a fantrip of R-1/9 cars? I would love to see 484 and new-restored 491 on a museum run.
Mechanical Problems kept the Lo-Vs from coming out for additional trips.
As for the R-1/9s, a number of these cars are in need of cosmetic and/or mechanical restoration. Unfortunately, those cars haven't been out of Coney Island Yard in many moons...
-Stef
Are there enough to assemble a trainset? How many R1/9 cars exist in the Ave X "graveyard" besides #491?
I can think of 5 cars right off the top of my head - #100, 103, 484, 491, and 1802. They could even use #1575 (the prototype R-10) since that car ran with those series cars.
At Ave X are Cars 103,381,923,925,1000,1300,and 1802.
Throw in 100, 484, and 491, and we have a complete 600 foot train.
Wishful thinking for a 10 Car Train.
-Stef
So you see, in theory it is possible. I would say there are more R-1/9's still in existance than another other type of vintage car. BTW, when were the last of the work car Low-V's retired? I've seen photos of them at Coney Island as recent as 1980.
I'd be inclined to agree with you about the R-1/9s, too bad there aren't more that are operational. As for Lo-Vs in work service, the last rider (diesel hauled) cars were withdrawn about 1984. R-14s, R-15s were retired from active duty that year. R-17s, R-21s, R-22s followed in 1985.
-Stef
no.., the R21/22s last saw service in 12/87, and the 17s in 2/88
I know, but R-17s/21s/22s were being withdrawn from service as early as 1985. Whatever was left over, got pulled from service 12/87 and 2/88.
-Stef
Stef, in the meantime we can dream on.
R9
Aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh. The sweet sounds of an R-9! Excellent!
-Stef
What? No bull and pinion gear sounds? Awwwww, man!!!:)
I'd be thrilled if they could get a 4 car train operational. I was not aware so many R1/9 cars were there.
Never mind 4 cars. With a little effort, they could get a full 10-car train!
>>Never mind 4 cars. With a little effort, they could get a full 10-car train!<<
With quite a bit of money and a dedicated shop force, the R1-9's would roll again. They haven't run on their own power for years, so they have been out of the loop as far as being road worthy. They're not basket cases, but they do need the proper restoration so they don't lay down on a fan trip.
Bill "Newkirk"
At least we have three of them out-of-town that are still in operational condition.
If only the money existed to hook them all up with a few more and do a REAL train. As someone who literally *LIVED* in "Arnines" for a living (as well as a "geese") I just can't get comfy with the thought of just ONE all by its lonesome running like some sort of BUS ... no offense to anyone, but when those cars ganged up, they became almost human in their cantankerous personalities in a gaggle as they conspired against the poor bastard in the cab. :)
The moans, the groans, the grunts, the snarls, the hisses, the throbbing compressors, the spur-cut bull and pinion gears...
It's ali-iiii-iive!!
Hey, I'd sign up to play conductor in a heartbeat!
If we can get someone to build it, and drill out ten cars, I'd be HAPPY to have you along as conductor. Only thing I'd ask is that you wear GLOVES because after you'd pointed out the "two little triggers" and then I revisited the "real thing" at Heypaul's ... I never REMEMBERED they were separate. A PROPER gloved hand interfaced with them PERFECTLY, you reached, you pulled, they opened. You slapped the caps, they closed.
Had it NOT been for what YOU noticed, I would have never remembered that since I just pulled, blissfully unaware of "lock and load." When I was on the rails, they just DID it. :)
I picked up a pair of brown Well's Lamont (sp) gloves a few years back and wore them while posing for pictures on the step plates of 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum. They're cloth with no leather. Did you wear leather gloves when you worked the trigger boxes?
Sorta ... they were suede and twill stitched. I have a pair that I collected off the structure at Atlantic on the Canarsie last year where the trackway was that are pretty much identical to the issue I had turned in 30 years prior. "N.Y.C.T.A." on them ... the style doesn't seem to have changed much (Brown and grey now, more bluish earlier on) ...
There are enough around to assemble ten cars, but most of them would have to be donated for the occasion from several museums. But man, that'd be sweet filling a platform to the 10 car marker with them even if they're borrowed ... it'd also be one very expensive outing since most of them need some serious work.
True, but you see, this can and is possible. This way, once the restoration is complete, they can be used on a regular basis, and can thus alternate between the D-Types and R-1/9's. Like I say, if you incorporate car #103 (with it's experimental fans), #484 (with the experimental "bullseye" lighting and PA system), and #1575 (the prototype R-10), you'd have yourself a pretty interesting train indeed.
Couldn't agree more. Wish it were possible, that's for sure. I'd love to get some handle time on a set once again, been 30+ years for me. But no layup. :)
arent tghe 1/9s compatible with the B/Dtypes?
Not at all ... though they could do an iron to iron hookup if necessary, they didn't do that either. Two completely separate beasts with only a few things in common but none that were useful for making a "smorgastrain." :)
both AMUE with H2as, i thjought they might work... oh well
Nope ... iron to iron was possible, but they were quite different as far as operating together ...
It was thought the BMT standards could m. u. with SIRT cars, but as it turned out, they would not do so after the TA acquired those surplus cars. The R-1/9s did have the same braking system as the Triplexes; both car classes gave off that famous "tch-ssss" magnet valve sound. The standards went "tchhhhhhhhh" just as they came to a full stop.
Yep, but if you tried to mate them electrically, there was much poppencorken und blowenfusen mit schpitzensparken. Never set foot in a standard in all my days with the TA - they were up east and never set foot at Stillwell that I ever noticed. My memories of them were on the "M" to the loop and on the Canarsie. Don't remember seeing them anywhere else but my own time scope was limited to late 60's, early 70's and most of them were GONE by the time I got sworn in.
But other than iron to iron, the IND cars and the BMT cars were NOT on speaking terms. :)
The last BMT standards left the scene 33 years ago - August 4, 1969 to be exact - so they were in fact all gone by the time you went to work for the TA. I rode on them on the Canarsie for two years on Saturdays and did not care for them at all. Old, ugly, no signs up front, three sets of doors per side when IND/BMT R units had four, etc., etc. I've come to appreciate them for what they were - solid, durable, and damn near indestructible. What can you cay about a car which could take out a tunnel pillar or two and walk away with scrapes and bruises?
Someone once posted a lengthy explanation of how to do an iron-to-iron lashup of an R-9 to an R-10.
R9 to R10 ... "kinkyshariu sex" ... not into it. In honor of Senator Bruno, I draw the line at "whips and chains" and stand clear of it entirely. :)
Yeah, like I said, never saw a standard when I *worked* the railroad, but sure do remember riding them on the Canarsie and the "upper Myrtle to Manhattan" ... always loved that part of Brooklyn's trains. To those of us in the Bronx, there was no such THING as (ahem) "Manhattan." To *US*, it was simply "downtown." Whoops. Heh.
Do you remember seeing the conductor at one of the button consoles on the BMT standards? On a six-car train, he would be in the second or fifth car, since near the end only 3-car B units remained. I can honestly say I never saw the conductor in the two years I rode on those cars. By some quirk, I must have never been in the second or fifth cars of any train. OTOH when the R-7/9s came over, I vivdly remember being in the same car as the conductor, watching him climb up onto the step plates and assume the position. I even watched him do his thing on the R-42s when they first appeared on the Canarsie.
The few times I rode standards (Upper Myrt and Canarsie) I wasn't the least bit interested in the conductor's position. Guess where my face was planted? Think Salaam ... I know you can name this tune in one note. :)
About the same place I was usually at.:)
Interestingly enough, while I started riding in the first car on Manhattan-bound trains from Lorimer St. after a week or two of starting Saturday School, I didn't start riding at the railfan window on Brooklyn-bound Canarsie trains until late 1969 or even early 1970. In other words, I never rode in the first car of a Brooklyn-bound train of BMT standards. Part of the reason may have been because we always exited at Union, by the transfer to the GG. We would backtrack down Metropolitan Ave. to Havemeyer St., where Annunciation Parish was located. That's where my Saturday school was until it moved to Richmond Hill in the fall of 1970. After school, we'd enter the subway on the south side of Metropolitan Ave., which put us at the western end of the Manhattan-bound platform.
Feh. You weren't ENOUGH of a foamer. Walking to the far end of a platform from the foamer glass was NEVER a problem. Wasn't until I got a job at the TA that I finally got cured. :)
Did you ever see a 2x6 jammed against the storm door handle on a BMT standard? I did a couple of times. Apparently the door wouldn't lock or stay shut, so they probably figured if the car still ran, it could go in service and they'd "make it stay shut".
Yes indeed I have ... even more amusing, I ended up in the TAIL car of a standard coming back to 14th Street and just for sheets and giggles, tried opening the door. Opened *RIGHT* up, so I left it open and enjoyed the breeze and the clear view all the way back. I take it most of the latches no longer existed in many of them, but the door handle wasn't locked either. Back in those days, it wasn't unusual for storm doors on the ends to either not be locked, or not stay latched so I didn't think much about it. That's why they had the chains across the ends. :)
I always wondered about the storm doors on the BMT standards. They were powered - even had their own separate controls - but could they be opened manually? Perhaps the power feature was disabled on the rebuilt units.
Ya got me there ... I was from the Bronx ... only rode them on rare occasion. While they were OK, they had a whistle that sounded like a HORRIBLE shriek and we pokey. They had some similarities though to the Arnines, which at the time made them largely boring. Now I got a stiffie on the Q's on the myrtle as well as some of the weirder cars on the shuttles, but the standards didn't really do it for me. I DID note though that the end doors tended to NOT be locked, that was the one thing I *do* remember about them as a spotting habit. I also remember having motormen toss the door open and YELL at me for opening them, so I'd take up the rear where there wasn't anyone to tell me to close the damned door. And seeing where you'd BEEN was acceptable. :)
I remember going to Coney Island via the West End when I was about 5 years old (around 1961). Back then the Sea Beach and West End shared a 2 track bridge over Coney Island Creek going into Stillwell.
I was in the front car of a Standard waiting for a D-type Sea Beach to clear. As I was looking, but not leaning, out the front storm door window, the storm door opened up! I remember the motorman opening up the cab to see what happened and my aunt jumping up from her seat to grab me.
BTW, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. To me those ABs were beautiful looking cars. End signs? They don't need no stinking end signs! Between the ABs and D-types, with the R9s on the Culver, you couldn't ask for a better railfan than the Southern Division.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
By the time I saw the BMT standards for the first time, I had gotten used to seeing route and destination signs up front and liked the idea. OTOH by 1967 they were operating mostly on the Canarsie line, so signs weren't really needed up front. Still, it was a turnoff to me. I like to be able to identify a train as it pulls into a station. Now you're going to say they had marker lights. Unfortunately, I never paid any attention to them. Another funny thing, I never heard their whistle. I did hear a Triplex whistle on Heypaul's tape of one of the fantrips two years ago.
With all these stories of BMT standard storm doors opening inadvertently, maybe they should jammed 2x6s against every single one.
Heh. Yeah, I found out about the storm doors not working the hard way on the Canarsie ... ya got used to holding on to the door handles that when locked, were as good as a "strap" when suddenly, whoops! I had a motorman dump the train and then give me a HEALTHY chewing out about staying away from the door, got out his woodie, jammed it in there, gave me another dirty look and charged up again.
That's why I'd do the standards from the tail car. :)
Had the storm door open up once on me on an Arnine while riding the Culver. I waited until we got to Stillwell to report it, enjoying a full trip on the elevated with the door partially open.
--Mark
I'm already starting to miss the World's Fair R-33 single-line cars. They have a latch on either door so you can leave the doors locked open.
Broken latch. I turned in several in my time as well. They'd drill them into the middle somewhere as a cure. Didn't happen often though. Musta been fun. :)
I had a storm door open on me once on the IRT. Might have been an R-21/22. I gave the handle the usual tug-tug as I like to do when - whooops! - the door opened! The motorman didn't see it, but my sister did. Talk about a dirty look!
>>arent tghe 1/9s compatible with the B/Dtypes?<<
Nope, while those cars could make a "iron hitch", none of them are electrically compatible with the other. The D-Types cannot MU with the Standards, although there was an interesting accurance that happened years ago.
Back around the time of the "Diamond Jubilee" (75th Anniversary of the IRT), there was a display in the BMT Chambers St station. On the inner tracks, displayed were the Museum Low-V's, Museum BMT Standards and one unit of D-Types. The cars were open to the public for all to see. Since this was underneath the Municipal Building, you can see why they chose Chambers St for the display.
A friend of mine, who still is an RCI, told me he was there when things were being shut down and the equipment moved out. He saw (as he described) the Museum Standards "pulling" the D-Types back to Coney Island yard. This was done as an "iron hitch" with the couplers electric portions NOT making contact. He told me no diesels were used. Of course if that were today, diesels would definetely be used.
Bill "Newkirk"
None of the prewar fleets were compatible with each other. Even the IRT had incompatible fleets (Flivvers, Steinways) which had to run by themselves.
If they ever do manage to get a consist of R1/9's rollable again, I'd be willing to volunteer to take them out for a ride if Big Ed or one of the other guys doesn't wrassle to the floor first. :)
CAB FIGHT! Heh.
One of you could assume the position.:)
Not without lubricant. :)
LOL
thankz for the responses ...........does anyone know if the low V s
will ever do a museum run again ?? ....& if not why not ???
if so willo they run by the year 2004 ??...........???
i do notice the low vs on the lot at coney . saw pics of them up to
1998 what a shame they are just sitting there !!! ...........
.........no- lol ,,,
Story in the 8/3/02 Washington Post about the unpleasant odors in some Metro cars.
What's with these namby-pamby people in DC? As a long-time, hardcore subway rider who rode SEPTA and the NYCTA subways, the odors detected in the Metro are mild compared to some of the olfactorial offenses I endured in both of these cities. So my advice to all of the prissies in DC is GET USED TO IT, AND GET A LIFE! There are more important things to worry about that an occasional smelly subway car.
P.S. If you want to lose the odorts, GET RID OF THE CARPETS.
I consider your opinion that the people here are "namby-pamby prissies who need to get a life" to be ignorant and offensive. While a subway isn't a botanical garden, there is no reason why its users should have to put up with unpleasant, preventable odors. It's a quality of life matter, which needs to be addressed to keep the public wanting to use it. If simple things are left unchecked, ridership declines and then that snowballs into declining revenue, meaning other maintenance matters or improvements get cut, and eventually the system ends up in a shambles like the NYC system in the 1970s and 1980s.
Metro is regarded as a model and a message to other cities that rapid transit can be both useful and appealing to the public. In NYC and Philly, the average Joe Schmoe rider seems to only care about there being service. When I lived in NYC, I was appalled at the conditions I had to put up with in stations and on trains day in and day out. It disgusted me no end to enter a station on a sweltering summer day and have to smell urine or vomit, then be crushed in a filthy car with no or malfunctioning air conditioning that reeked of rotting food or bodily wastes. NO ONE should have to endure or tolerate such offenses. If you don't care about such things, fine, but don't dare to impose your indifference on others.
Removing the carpeting altogether might help, since Metro doesn't have to focus as heavily on luring suburbanites to ride the trains as it did when it first opened. However, whatever kind of flooring replaces it has to be chosen carefully to be aesthetically pleasing, comfortable to stand on for longer rides, and highly durable. The strictly utilitarian flooring of the NY system would not be well-received here by either residents or tourists.
I was once on an R-38 A train at around midnight, headed southbound fromthe GWB Bus Terminal. It had obviously just been washed. The windows were clean, the floor and seats spotless, no newspapers or soda bottles anywhere. The fresh lemon scent greeted you as the doors opened.
Riding that train was its own reward.
You've made some very insightful comments. First, I agree that there is no reason to start name calling people for thier not being happy with subway cars that stink. Yes, here is NYC, we more or less have become indifferent to minor (or not so minor) unpleasentries; if the trains run (more or less on time) we are satisfied. But apparently, the DC system has set a higher standard and it apparently has lived up to it for quite some time now. I congragulate them for that and think it is postive that the press in the area thinks such a transit issue is worthy of coverage.
I have never had the chance to ride the Metro in DC, so I cannot comment on its operation. I must admit, the concept of carpet seems to be a little far fetched for a mass transit system, even if every rider was the most civic mined, clean and considerate person alive, I tend to believe the carpet would take a beating in very short order. Again, I have never seen it, so maybe I am off base.
A question for those of you who have riden the DC Metro, what is your opinion of the use of carpet on the trains? Has it held up well in the past? Is this problem really something new, or just something that has always been around and just now got picked up in the newspaper?
The carpet, for the most part, does hold up very well. Many Metro riders could qualify as being the most civic mined, clean and considerate person alive. Recently, since the trash cans were removed (and bomb resistant trash cans are now being put in), the minute amount of trash on the system became a little greater, but it is hard to notice. I think once the trash cans are back, the issue will fade away.
From what I've seen in my 10 years here, the carpeting does hold up remarkably well, showing mostly just sings of wear typical for the traffic. Metro has managed to do an excellent job of keeping the interiors in good order and the ban on eating on board definitely helps. Unfortunately, as the article said, the trains have been getting dirtier during their operating hours because of thoughtless laziness and selfishness of some passengers. The lack of convenient newspaper recycling and waste receptacles has resulted in more litter being left on the trains. The more insidious problem is the increase in the number of people eating in the system, and that a large number of them are downright slobs. Food residues on the carpeting makes it deteriorate considerably faster than just foot traffic and weather slop.
Short of removing all the carpeting, they could try what MNRR did and not have carpet in the door areas. You'd still have some water getting on it in the seating areas from shoes and umbrellas, but it would probably be much less than what gets in when the doors open.
I've ridden Metrorail a fair amount. The carpets, I've noticed, are vacuumed and shampood regularly. They do seem to hold up well.
Metrorail is a showpiece of Washington - another way to impress visitors. Congress makes sure it gets taken care of.
Similarly, Moscow Metro was the Soviet Union's way of providing a showpiece of Communist triumph. As a transportation system, it works very, very well, and as an example of transit design and architecture, it is magnificent.
...and of course, since he's the mayor as well as being a passenger, he can actually do something about it, according to today's New York Daily News Whether or not he took the action on Thursday because of the A/C problems with Con Ed in Queens on Wednesday is up to you to decide.
They have a photo on the News' website of Bloomberg riding a train that looks like an R-142, but since the story says he was on the No. 4, odds are the News just yanked a stock picture of him out of their files to go with the copy and the problem train was an R-62 (it could have been a `bird, but nowadays when something goes wrong with them, it's usually pointed out in the story that "some of the cars are over 40 years old...").
I remember on a new bit, the first day Bloomberg went to work, he took a 6 Train. Perhaps that picture was from the 6 Line. I forgot what stop he was on. Maybe he needed to be early and got a 5 Train operated by R142s. Or it was actually taken that lucky day where there was R142/R142A on the 4.
the Times got the car # 1623
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/03/nyregion/03SUBW.html<<
>>mayor called in a complaint to Katherine Lapp, ...Regular riders should not call Ms. Lapp but the hot-car hot line, [718] 330-3322, with the car number, found on the outside of the car, and the time of day of the problem.)<<
And regular riders can expect equally rapid response. ???
WE (the crews) can't get them pulled off the road and repaired.
"Write it on the Defect Sheet when you get to the terminal."
Actually, I was on the L Saturday and heard over the radio a W conductor complaining about hot car #5150. When I had the W the next day, I see sitting on the stand was a train with #5150, but when I got on it was ice cold.
Maybe just depends on the line and yard how successful you are at getting them to fix it.
We'll find out (regular riders getting rapid response).
I called the "hot"line to report R-62A 2456 with no A/C running on the #1 line Friday.
--Mark
Well on Monday, my #1 train had two hot cars in the rear, including the last car which would have been the T/O car going back to New Lots. I called it into Control as people was running from car to car. Upon arrival at VC it was taken out of service. This was during the PM rush hour.
Here's the link from the New York Times. It was car #1623.
There's is only 1 R-142 on the 4 line. Except of course, when I'm on the 4. When they see my name on the sheets, they make sure to have 8-10 or more redbirds just for me.
I can't begin to tell you how much I hate that line. 9+ hour jobs, and more redbirds every time I go back. Last week they must've had at least 10-12 redbirds over there. And when they give me one of those 3 trip jobs where the last trip is local to New Lots, I want to scream.
But Redbird AC is repairable and maintainable....R142 AC failure goes back to the vendors. We've got Bombardier cars with leaking compressors and evaporators that do not drain the condensate. Lucky for us that Mayor Bloomberg got a 'hot car.' Hopefully, he asked WHY.............Bombardier lost the R160 contract. CI Peter
When I've ridden on the R-62s on that are on the #4 line, the A/C is frequently weak. What on earth is wrong with the A/C on these cars?
#3 West End Jeff
We are all of the 'last and lost generation.' Spoiled rotten, cheap gas and cheaper cigarettes...contaminating the 'pristeen environment' of the Third World. Most refrigeration systems utilised 'ChloroFlouroCarbon' liquids when released into the atmosphere....one part of the Chlorine molecule will destroy 100,000 molecules of ozone. Typical of R11 and R12...R12 was used in automobile air conditioner systems. R22, used in home air conditoners and refrigerators, is 'HydrogenChlorineFlouroCarbon' and is the refrigerant of Redbirds. On the 'toxic scale,' Halon fire extinguishers rate a 12, R11/R12 rates a 1, R22 rates a 0.1 and the newest refrigerant, R134, which is used in newer automobiles and subway cars, rates a zero. As you go through the R11/R12/R22/R134a scale, you will notice that the boiling point of the liquid refrigerant ascends...R134a is somwheres about 50 degrees. New refrigeration systems use R134a...R22 will be outlawed. Two HVAC units in the R142...probably the same in R62s...with R134a will never give you the frigid environment of a Redbird. So, newer trainsets cannot give you the 'whiff' of an open ice cream truck. Do what i do on the job...carry frozen gel packs to place upon your head but don't compromise your safety with a frozen block inside of your helmet. CI Peter
I'm probably younger than many of you at age 39 and I don't smoke. My parents have a central A/C unit from 1964 for their house that uses R-22 and it still works quite well. I have yet to experience how the A/C is in the R-142s and the R-143s. I have come across some excessively cold cars in the system, but those cars have refrigeration systems that use R-22. Sometimes you'll come across a very cold car on Metro-North. Once I came across a GMC "Fishbowl" bus with cold A/C, but that was back in 1982 and that was in Westchester County. I never came across an overly cold GMC RTS II bus in Westchester County even after they retrofitted them with new A/C units in late 1983 and early 1984.
#3 West End Jeff
Those RTSs probably had HCFC 22 systems even after retrofitting. The subway cars NYCT purchased in the 1980s use HCFC 22. NYCT didn't start using equipment with refrigerant 134a until well into the 1990s.
David
"with R134a will never give you the frigid environment of a Redbird."
Why is that? Just because the boiling point is higher doesn't mean they couldn't make a compressor that cools as well. I recently bought a "new" used car whose AC had been retrofitted to the new standards, and it cools as well as my previous car, is even slightly larger, and gets better gas mileage too. In that case, new technology has surmounted the obstacles. Why not with subway AC?
HVAC class 101A...what air conditioning does: R134a refrigerant systems built as new are probably very efficient and very electricity conserving BUT their ability to transfer heat is not as good as a system that uses R22. A home air conditioner built in the sixties that has no leaks of significance may contain less than three pounds of refrigerant and chill you 'to the bone' but cost more to operate. R22 will still be used for some time and has one major advantage: its molecules do not pass through copper/aluminum/steel piping as readily as R134a. New industrial cooling plants retrofitted to existing HVAC require complete installation of condensors/piping and maybe evaporators to check the loss of R134a...systems do loose refrigerant despite the lack of leakage. As for MVAC retrofit, complete upgrade requires compressor removal and draining of oil, thorough 'pumping down' (evacuation) and replacement of lubrication (synthetic oil) AND replacement of refrigerant by a manufacturer specified weight. The old cars had sight glass windows that allowed the backyard mechanic to 'tinker' and fill by flow. New R134a systems have no window...'kits' to recharge depend exclusively on high side pressure. My new/used 1995 Oldsmobile Achieva was probably rebuilt by GM and it takes almost forever to chill down the cab...the check is to insert a refrigeration thermometor into the air duct to monitor the chilled air temp R142 trainsets have two computer controlled HVAC units...running full blast what they cannot do is easily overcome the heat load of a high humidity environment...which is what the primary task of AC does...dehumidify to reduce the transferrance of heat (in winter you need to increase ambient humidity.) CI Peter
I have a 1998 Honda Civic DX hatchback and the A/C chills down the cabin fairly qickly. I can't say anything about the R-142/R-142A and R-143 subway cars since I haven't experienced them in hot weather yet.
#3 West End Jeff
I picked 2 days on the No.4 Line two picks ago. One job was great 2 trips and the other was a mistake. The job was 3 trips in and out and paid 9HRS and 25 Min. I had 1 1/2 trips of the PM Rush Hour. Then for Lunch you have to settle for bad pizza at Woodlawn.
However I can't say I woundn't do it again.
LOL. It's funny that you should mention the bad pizza at Woodlawn.
I've given up on that place. It's almost as bad as the place at Dyre.
Management on the 4 line is taking Bloomberg's complaint seriously. They now have platform conductors going from car to car making sure there are no hot cars.
More people have gotten sick from eating at that place at Woodlawn than at any other terminal eating spot i know of. Bring lunch/dinner with you.
Pepinos Pizza at 241st is safe because #2 RTO crews digest this stuff without TTs...I checked out the place for when I WASN'T BROWN BAGGING. Some lines have faster runs...food consumed leads to faster runs. CI Peter
It only safe if you have a plain slice.
I take plain slice and sterilize it with red pepper...remains hot without microwave or solar power.
If you have the time, get a sandwich from the deli across the street (and down the block) from the 241 St entrance to the yard. Big sandwichs, little prices.
Gotta remind the crew about that place...price is right and a happy tummy makes for a happy CI. CI Peter
Woodlawn without question has the Worst Pizza place in A Div or maybe like Alex said the worst in the system. Dyre comes in 2nd with bad places to eat. The only good place at Dyre is the Dinner but they are only open from 5AM to 4PM. Its also too bad the fish place moved out.
There are only 2 reasons I would pick the No.4 Line again. 1. Its Express and 2. I see a big increase in my Paycheck.
When I worked the 4, I would buy something at Utica(my childhood station) and either eat it there or bring it up to Woodlawn. Or if I had a long break in between trips, then I would ride one stop to Mosholu and pick up something there.
TA may soon be implementing laser sighted hand held thermometors for tracking hot cars and their systems in RTO.
Well, he is cutting/not raising the funding for the NYCTA. . .
Good. I hope Billionaire Bloomy gives 'em hell! :)
Looking at the subway map the fact that there is no subway line running underneath Fifth Avenue has always questioned me. Since i don't believe that it "just isn't there", the following questions:
1. Was the construction of such a subway line as mentioned above, ever considered?
2. If yes, why was it never built? and
3. What are the chances this subway line will ever be constructed in the (near) future?
Fifth Avenue has long been the city's main upscale shopping area. As a result, business interesting did not want a subway built, and surely would not want one now.
With subways flanking it on 6th Av and Lexington (Park Av south of 42nd Street), and rail terminals at 33/7th and 42nd/Lex, why would we need a subway on Fifth.
"Fifth Avenue has long been the city's main upscale shopping area. As a result, business interesting did not want a subway built,"
Not true. I can't say what their attitude about elevateds were, but subway service has happily coexisted with retail business of all socioeconomic levels, with subway entrances built into some, in Manhattan
" and surely would not want one now. "
For the reasons I outlined above, not because of any hostility to subways.
Fifth Ave was once lined with mansions of the gilded age rich. They probably torpedoed any attempt to put the original subway along it's length. Once Park Ave south and Lexington Ave had subways underneath themselves, a 5th Ave subway became redundant.
The Fifth Avenue Association (I'm not sure all its predecessors had the same name) has been a powerful force in New York politics literally for centuries.
They've gotten special considerations not given to less well-connected avenues.
Important to this disccussion is the fact that they were able to make sure that no rail line ever marred the surface of 5th Avenue--not horse cars or steam cars or conduit cars. 5th Avenue had coaches from day one, and then buses later.
So I'm sure that, even if they could be convinced that a subway underneath wouldn't downscale their avenue, that they would never permit the disruption of constrcution.
And so far, at any rate, they've always had the power to make their transportation policies stock.
Back in the old days, Fifth Avenue had its own bus company, the Fifth Avenue Coach company. Its buses charged twice as much (10¢ vs. 5¢) as New York City Omnibus and did not offer any kind of transfer even though the two were subsidiaries of the same company.
FAC had double decker coaches too. NYCO did not.
Both NYCO and FACO lasted until the '60s when the City took them over in the face of some hardball tactics to try to win a 20 cent fare. Fifth Avenue's attorney was the charming and urbane Roy Cohn.
Weren't they both called FACL (Fifth Avenue Coach Lines) by then?
All I ever saw on their maps was FACO and NYCO. I don't know if that changed at the end.
IIRC, NYCO was the renamed Third Avenue Railway System. Though taken over by FACO, they had a different corporate culture to the end it seems, at least on their lines.
TARS was a completely separate company, it merged in 1956 with NYCO/FACO, which was when FACL was formed. But by that time it was called Third Avenue Transit and its bus subsidiary was Surface Transit.
NYCO/FACO were owned until 1954 by the Omnibus Corporation, which offloaded its bus holdings that year and changed its name to this.
"So I'm sure that, even if they could be convinced that a subway underneath wouldn't downscale their avenue, that they would never permit the disruption of constrcution."
I'll concede that they wouldn't have been happy with cut and cover, which was the order of the day in the first half of the twentieth century.
Of course, if they had as much impact as you say, well,that's OK, because everywhere subways were built, property values skyrocketed. Fifth Av was close enough to benefit as well. Had they been much further, they would have screwed themselves.
In the end, it did not matter which street the subway was actually serving - so long as it was within easy walking distance.
Ron,
I think Paul hit the nail on the head in a couple of areas:
1) The hostility is not to a subway per se, but to the disruption caused during the years and years of construction. And that is not limited to the actual building of the subway itself, the utilities on the street usually need to be moved, before subway work begins. I mention this as it could be pointed out that the subway construction could be largely done by deep bore tunneling which would minimize the street level disruption.
And
2) If you will agree #1 has merit, then the business and residents on that block surely do have enormous political pull, so what they want, is very often what they get (or what they don't want is often what doesn't happen).
I concede that I underestimated that effect - because a Fifth Av line would have been constructed in the day when cut and cover was the rule. No, the Fifth Av and Park Av types would have been upset.
Today, it's not needed at all. A Fifth Av subway project would rightfully be rejected as a complete waste of money.
And would likely have been in the time of els, as well. On Park Ave, the NYC ran on the surface and later in a cut, and had stations. Second and Third Avenues had elevated service above 59th St, and below 59th St, there was elevated service on Second, Third, and Sixth. Once the subway opened, service below 42nd St was on Fourth Ave, so you had rapid transit on Second, Third, Fourth, and Sixth. The area was already well served, so there was no need.
-Hank
Agreed.
If someone proposed a Fifth Avenue subway today, assuming for the moment that there weren't lines on Sixth and Lexington, the upscale merchants would probably raise their eyebrows and say "Our clientele does not ride the (ick!) subway."
I don't know if a 5th Ave subway was ever proposed, but 5th is near the 6th Ave subway (and 6th Ave el before that) and the Lexington subway line. As for there ever being a 5th Ave subway? I don't see it an the near future. They have been trying to build the much more necessary 2nd Ave subway since about the 1930's, and it's still not built, although much closer than it ever was in the rescent past. There will not be a 5th Ave subway before a 2nd Ave subway is built, and even when and if the 2 Ave subway is built, it is still questionable because it is near 6th Ave and Lexington.
Further subway development (besides the Second Av subway) is best pursued as station enhancements - that is, improving stations' capacity to handle large numbers of people with comfort and safety, upgrading them to ADA compliance (which also makes them stroller, child, luggage and elderly-friendly) and perhaps expanding the air conditioning experiment being tried at Grand Central's IRT platforms.
"even when and if the 2 Ave subway is built, it is still questionable because it is near 6th Ave and Lexington."
No, I can't agree. Please pull your Manhattan maps out. The Lexington line is overcrowded and several blocks from many East Side customers; the Sixth Av lines do not serve the East Side Market at all.
"even when and if the 2 Ave subway is built, it is still questionable because it is near 6th Ave and Lexington."
No, I can't agree. Please pull your Manhattan maps out. The Lexington line is overcrowded and several blocks from many East Side customers; the Sixth Av lines do not serve the East Side Market at all.
No, I think you misunderstood what I said, but then I see how it could have been unclear. I meant, "Even when and if the 2 Ave subway is built, it is still questionable (that they would build a 5 Ave subway) because (5th Ave) is near 6th Ave and Lexington.
I wasn't questioning the 2 Ave subway, but the possibility of a 5th Ave subway.
Sorry. Yes I did misunderstand. Thank you for correcting me on that point.
My guess is a line down 5th Av would have been opposed by the well-to-do folks having addresses in the 60s and 70s. Where would it go to the north or south without major, major new construction? Sending it to join up with one of the existing lines wouldn't provide much (if any) benefit. I don't know much about the Bronx, but other than service to Co-Op City or the Orchard Beach area, it would seem there are enough lines already there. At the other end, 5th comes to an end at Washington Square, and below that the grid pretty much ends. Join it into the Houston or 6 Av/Church St lines? Majorly complicated and constrained by current capacity issues.
As for such a line ever being built, don't expect to be telling your great-grandchildren about the time before there was a subway there. The 2 Av line has been in the works for over 60 years now and there's still squabbling over funding and building it. Between the NIMBYs who would swoop down in droves, the disruption construction would cause, and the massive expenses involved, it just won't be.
"…As for such a line ever being built, don't expect to be telling your great-grandchildren about the time before there was a subway there. The 2 Av line has been in the works for over 60 years now and there's still squabbling over funding and building it. Between the NIMBYs who would swoop down in droves, the disruption construction would cause, and the massive expenses involved, it just won't be."
Manhattan isnt getting any less developed and the longer this is streched out, the harder its going to be, plus more "ammuntion" for NIMBY.
As much as I love subways, especially in certain areas of Manhattan, a monorail could be built faster, with less disruption and serve the same purpose as els without the negativity behind them. And not every monorail looks like the ones at Disney, ALWEG, and not as clunky
The one in Japan is an example
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Chiba.html
Wow, that is one nice looking Monorail.
Clearly, there's no need for a Fifth Av subway.
"The 2 Av line has been in the works for over 60 years now and there's still squabbling over funding and building it. Between the NIMBYs who would swoop down in droves, the disruption construction would cause, and the massive expenses involved, it just won't be."
The only obstacle (being solved now) is money. There is no NIMBY opposition to a Second Av subway at all - just the opposite. Community groups, businesses and individuals are begging the MTA to build it. No one is opposing it.
There would also be very little disruption. The tunnel is being deep-bored or blasted, meaning nobody on street level would notice anything except where stations are constructed. There's no issue at all. I wish all rapid transit construction could be that way.
There is no NIMBY opposition to a Second Av subway at all - just the opposite. Community groups, businesses and individuals are begging the MTA to build it. No one is opposing it.
No one is opposing the Second Avenue Subway because there's nothing to oppose. After 75 years, it's still the transportational equivalent of vaporware. If somehow the start of actual construction approached,* you can be sure that NIMBY's would come swarming like cockroaches. The fact that many groups, businesses and residents support the line means nothing, as in today's legal climate just a few determined opponents can delay any project long enough to kill it off.
* = Ralphy the cat is sitting next to me as I write this. It would be more likely for Ralphy to start singing arias from Wagner's Ring than it would be for construction to start on Second Avenue.
"No one is opposing the Second Avenue Subway because there's nothing to oppose. After 75 years, it's still the transportational equivalent of vaporware. If somehow the start of actual construction approached,* you can be sure that NIMBY's would come swarming like cockroaches."
I've been directly involved in this effort, so I am quite familiar with the political situation in Manhattan vis-vis the Second Av line. Your objections are non-issues.
A few, would, inevitably, try to stop it (this is democracy). They would not get far. A few NIMBYS tried to stop AirTrain. Result: Construction went ahead as scheduled, and a judge threw out the appeal. The issues were not identical, nor was the exact legal argument, but it's close enough.
"The fact that many groups, businesses and residents support the line means nothing, as in today's legal climate just a few determined opponents can delay any project long enough to kill it off."
Wrong. A few determined individuals must convince enough other individuals to stop the project, and then must convince a judge to do so in court. They must also have the support of state legislators in the affected district.
No one who is a potential NIMBY has, or will have, that kind of support in Manhattan. If a NIMBY appears, he/she will get to voice their opinion, and then will be swept aside. As a resident of the burbs (I surmise that from previous posts) you may not be in the city enough to gauge the depth of this. The Hamptons this aint.
Don't forget that lawsuits with even the most tenuous basis on reality can delay projects for a prolonged time. Determined opponents certainly are going to be able to shop around for sympathetic judges. And there's no shortage of legal arguments - for instance, that the tunnelling will weaken building foundations along the avenue. Sure, that can be disproved, but it'll take time. There's also the error-in-the-EIS claim, something that's not difficult to raise given the extreme complexity of those documents.
I am not trying to say that the opponents can stop construction permanently. But they can delay it for months or even years, and a delay of that nature could very well prove fatal.
AirTrain isn't a very good analogy because the people living along its route are vastly less well-off than the people on Second Avenue and vicinity.
"Don't forget that lawsuits with even the most tenuous basis on reality can delay projects for a prolonged time. Determined opponents certainly are going to be able to shop around for sympathetic judges."
They'd be wasting their time. You overestimate the value of that.
"I am not trying to say that the opponents can stop construction permanently. But they can delay it for months or even years, and a delay of that nature could very well prove fatal. "
They can only do that if a judge halts construction while the issues are fought over. That's very unlikely in this case. The NIMBYS can argue, but the tunnel boring will proceed.
"AirTrain isn't a very good analogy because the people living along its route are vastly less well-off than the people on Second Avenue and vicinity."
The NIMBYS were initially supported by hordes of cash supplied by the Airline Transport Association. It didn't help.
Even very well-off people are not likely to wanbt to spend $$$ on a losing cause. No judge is likely to halt construction during a lawsuit like this and if he/she did, an appeals court would very quickly reverse.
Consider something else: The EIS has already been circulated. The boring and blasting will begin in less than two years. If lawsuits were to be a major problem they would already have started to appear. No one has uttered so much as a peep.
There are of course many reasons why it was never seriously considered. And there certainly is no reason to put one there now, except for one!
The Only Reason to build another trunk line in Manhattan is because more lines are needed in the outlying areas of Queens and Brooklyn (and possibly also Staten Island). [And better service in the Bronx wouldn't hurt either.]
But where can such new service go? It cannot go on the existing trunk lines as they are already saturated.
They cannot use the existing tunnels or bridges, for they are already maxed out.
If new service is needed into Manhattan, then ipso facto, more service is needed in Manhattan. Where to put this new service. Well, it needs to go where people need to go to, and so WTC is a big draw, as is midtown. It has to be on an Avenue that does not already have a subway: If you think that disturbing a few water pipes and electric wires is disruptive......
The Myrtle - Fifth Avenue Subway seems to be one of the most reasonible approaches, if I do say so myself. Naturally the underground portions will need to be deep dug with minimal to no surface disruption. Fortunatly along the snobiest NIMBYst parts of Fifth Avenue the enterances can be shaded into Central Park a little so there might possible be no disruption whatsover of the surface street.
Naturally this is a computerised, high speed subway line, and incidently makes almost no junction with existing NYCT properites. (Well except for Jamaica Center-- which is a good place for such a convergence anyway.)
Elias
That's a good point. Excellent observation.
Extensions of existing lines do not require additional trunk capacity.
Additionally, lines such as the Broadway BMT have excess capacity now; so if an entirely new subway line were to be built in Queens, and there were concerns about Sixth Av or Eight Av trunk capacity, you could plug the new train into Broadway.
Of course, MTA did that. The original 63rd Street extension was plugged into both 6th Av and Broadway, and trains have been run that way.
The Second Av line will introduce additional trunk capacity, and service plans will probably see some Queens Blvd. service switched onto Second Av - thus making new capacity available on the other trunk lines.
On the R160 Award contract, it says that the R160 will go to the A, C, E, J/Z, L, M, N and Q lines, currently, I think, the A, N, and Q and once in a while E lines have the R44/46 and R68 cars, my qusetion being, where will these go BEING that will still have the R143 order going. To meet the Redbirds fate maybe????
The BMW.Williams F1 Team
The R68 Cars will not be retired, they are only 14 years old. The R44 and R46 may end up like the redbirds, we'll just have to wait and see...there have been conflicting reports on whether or not they will be retired. -Nick
I doubt the R68's are going anytime soon for the reason mentioned. They will be the last trains to go of any of the trains running now on the B division, and that will be many years from now by the time they get to them. It will not be with the R160's....maybe the R360's?
The R68 just went through a SMS, and the R68A's are due for one IIRC, so forget about retirement on that fleet.
The R46 MU's have been performing well, IMO, others here can give specific details on this fleet's MDBF.
The R44, which came in as a dog some 30 years ago, MAY be scrapped once a good portion of the R-160 contract has been excersized, but we are at least a few years away from that decision.
they will not be scrapped!!!!
sunk... maybe, but they also have asbestos i think
I think the MTA will rethink this strategy once remnants of asbestos turns up in our fish. This information will come to light long before the R-44/46 cars are sent seaworthy. How the EPA could approve something like this is beyond me....
how would they get to the fish... they are insdide the carbody
True, but when the carbody rusts through, the asbestos will seep out and contaminate the water around it. I believe it is as much of a threat underwater as it is airborne.
the carbody needs o2 to rust
You'd be incredibly wrong. Try reading scientific journals.
-Hank
Incredibly wrong about what? If they wanna do artificial reefs, that's fine. I'm just opposed to them using vintage subway equipment to do it. Why not use the scrap metal from the WTC structure?
Because Vintage subway equipment means nothing and WTC scrap metal does.
To whom? This was a tragic event, one many Americans (myself included) want to put behind us. Now that all the human remains have been sifted out, I can't think of a better way to dispose of the twisted remains.
Scrap metal
To companies willing to pay good money for the quality steel that can be recycled.
-Hank
Yeah, and I love how they keep praising the program (dumping) as a great thing for the enviroment. The fish were doing fine without our help long before we started "dumping" trains into the ocean.
Learn something about artifical reefs.
-Hank
So you endorse this?
Absolutely, as do a number of prominent scientists and scientific organizations. A number of ships have been purposely sunk in the Florida Keys to become artifical reefs. The sea life takes hold, providing food for the fish, who hang around. This results in a healthier ecosystem. When something 'intersting' is sunk, it brings tourist dollars from dive groups.
http://www.fla-keys.com/spiegelgrove/photogallery/index.htm
This is what a ship sunk in 1986 looks like one sea life takes over-
Tugboat Spartan NJSCUBA.COM
-Hank
When something 'intersting' is sunk, it brings tourist dollars from dive groups.
If have to admit, I don't know too much about artificial reefs, but I do understand your point now. I also have to agree that the subway cars will make interesting diving spots. BTW, how many feet down are the subway cars? Can they be seen without artificial light for divers? I have to admit you intrigued me now about the "tourist" aspect of it. I am actually looking forward to the photos they bring up years from now about how they will look in their new life....I love seeing photos of the Titanic and other shipwrecks, so on a smaller scale (or larger scale considering the coume of trains down there) it will be interesting to see them.
I really have to apologize for sounding like a broken record, since this is my fourth post on this exact subject, but here I go again:
There are some ex-PATH K cars located on the Sea Girt Artificial reef off the Northern New Jersey Coast Line. The cars are in around 60-80' feet of water, IIRC, thats between 2 and three Atmospheres. The cars are in plenty of light, and Dive Lights would only need to be used in the dark, or possibly wreck penetration. The cars are a haven for sea creatures of all kinds, and as such are popular amongst divers for pictures and also for lobstering.
Both of these sites have Info on or Pics of the Cars:
NJscuba.net
Herb Segars' Photography Calls them SEPTA cars, oh well.
There will be no asbestos in fish. Asbestos is only a threat if it is FRIABLE. It must be INHALED. That means ASBESTOS DUST. Proper removal of asbestos involves making and keeping it nice and wet, so that the particles stay together, like mud. In water, there is no way for the asbestos to become airborne, and thus it is completely non-threatening. Besides, I am sure it tastes terrible to the fish.
-Hank
Proper removal of asbestos involves making and keeping it nice and wet, so that the particles stay together, like mud. In water, there is no way for the asbestos to become airborne, and thus it is completely non-threatening. Besides, I am sure it tastes terrible to the fish.
Asbestos is not a man-made substance. It is naturally occuring in the earth, and is mined like many other substances. It poses no threat to the earth or the water. It does pose a threat if it becomes airbourne and you breathe the stuff.
Elias
wet asbestos is not a threat to the environment.
Asbestos exposure increases the risk of mesothelioma, due to the fibers being breathed into the lungs and sticking in the air sacs. Once there, they don't come out.
The risk of mesothelioma is increased in workers who have constant exposure to it without protection. The average person who happens to pass through an area with asbestos fibers in the air will not have a measurable increase in cancer risk from that one exposure - but where there is asbestos present, it should be mitigated.
I recently renovated a house, and had a state certified contractor remove loose, fraying asbestos blankets wrapped around pipes. The crew created a negative pressure system with houses and plastic sheeting, then watered down the asbestos, scraping it off the pipes. An encapsulant was then applied to the cleaned pipe to prevent any stray fibers from becoming airborne. Air sampling after the job was completed was required. After the all-clear, I was allowed to remove the plastic sheeting.
The asbestos went to an approved dump.
Sounds expensive...
-Hank
NOOOOOOO!!!! Not the R-44/46's !!!
NOOOOOOO!!!! Not the R-44/46's !!!
But did you object to the departure of the Redbirds, or the 16s or the 1-9s?
I remember when the 46s were new, and I thought they were the cat's meow. Well, I have had a new cat since then, Several in fact.
The dead ones don't meow anymore.
Elias
I never liked the Redbirds, or all of those old cars.
or all of those old cars.
Most people like the cars of their childhood. I know I do. When I rode them I hated the R16's and the R27-30's. At the end when the R27-30 where in their final days, I kind of made my peace with them, as they did have an attractive final scheme. The R 16's I hated to the end, but now actually kind of like them, and would do anything to ride them again! I always liked the R10's, both grafittied and in their very attractive last scheme - the "greenbirds" - because I had such good times on them riding out to Rockaway for days at the beach.
As for all the classes before the R10's, I have no experience with. I can enjoy them from photos, and definitely understand why everyone loves them. But it is hard to have an affection for trains you never rode or had experience with.
I remember the R1-9s. I used to ride (car) to Kew Gardens with my father, and then take the (F) in to work with him. Later in the day I'd ride all of the subways up and down the line.
Dad said the IND had the newest cars, but clearly he had not been on the other lines since the 50's, because the R-27s on the BMT were a real eye opener!
But I still have a fond spot for the 1-9s, *that* (according to me) was what a subeay car was *supposed* to be, with the conductor standing up there between the cars.
Elias
which car class is the first "old one"?
"NOOOOOOO!!!! Not the R-44/46's !!!"
I couldn't agree with you more, Acela...but you are a part of the conflicting reports I was talking about; the other day you insited that these cars would be retired with the R-160 contract, but that differs from another post on Wednesday. -Nick
The R44 and R46 were overhauled in the 1990's. They have another 20 years to go before they'll need retiring.
"The R44 and R46 were overhauled in the 1990's. They have another 20 years to go before they'll need retiring"
They did both have the overhaul, but I don't know if both those orders would last another 20 years or not. I give the R-46 a better chance of survival, since the MTA had fewer problems with them. -Nick
The routes the R160 will serve has very little bearing on which car classes will be retired. It is common for the TA to shift things arround from time to time. If the (Q) gets R160's, it could always send its R68s somewhere else, say the (F) for arguments' sake.
:-) Andrew
Well should it be?? Hmmmm.............
It needs to be both. It needs to operate as a well-run business, according to market princples as well as social ones, and it also needs to realize that it is providing an important service, not corn flakes.
But these same principles would apply if the MTA were a private business or government owned.
>>> It needs to operate as a well-run business <<<
I agree with your post. The term business as used in the original post is too ambiguous. If business is defined as a profit making entity, run to maximize profits, the MTA, and most government services cannot be run as businesses. OTOH, certain service goals have to be set and the entity must be run as efficiently as possible to meet those goals. Many of the tools of business are used to measure how well the organization is run, and the principles of running a business cannot be ignored.
Tom
Id does have to be run as a business, and it does have to make a profit.
However, the bottom line need not be one readily recognisible to accountants!
Obviously *all* of its opeating costs, capital costs, financial costs etc must be met somehow.
Clearly much of it must come from the farebox, especially the day-to-day operating costs. Others will need to come from city state and federal coffers. But all of this money needs to be used and accounted for wisely. (Arthur Anderson, you keep out of this, you hear!)
The subway, as city infrastructure does add value to the city, and to the properties around it. It adds value to businesses in mid-town as they are able to attract more well-qulified and edeicated employees. It benefits the residential areas, both as in increase in the property values, and in the desireability of whole neighborhoods that have access to clean afordable and swift transportation.
Yadda yadda yadda....
It does need to run as a business, effeciently, effectively, but not all of its assets, its value can be written in a ledger book.
Elias
If business is defined as a profit making entity, run to maximize profits, the MTA, and most government services cannot be run as businesses.
We're not disagreeing. However "run to maximize profits" is sometimes a code word for "rob your customers blind."
In a well-run business, maximize profits is not synonymous with "milk 'em dry." Some of the most profitable business are expert at identifying their markets, serving their customers efficiently, reducing actual waste, maintaining plant to avoid catastophic repair costs, having a good relationship with their employees which translates to employees that are happier amd serve clients more willingly, and actively looking for new products or policies to increase business.
Striking the right balance of all of the above (and we could probably add others) maximizes profits, or (in a subsidized business) reduces dependence on subsidies.
A badly run business tries to survive by increasing prices, demanding concessions from government, cutting service, and hiring excess management to squeeze labor, and running down its capital plant.
Which model sounds more like the subway system for much of the past six decades?
Some of the most profitable business are expert at identifying their markets, serving their customers efficiently, reducing actual waste, maintaining plant to avoid catastophic repair costs, having a good relationship with their employees which translates to employees that are happier amd serve clients more willingly, and actively looking for new products or policies to increase business.
Not that a successful business has to do all of the above. Good treatment of employees, in particular. Wally World has become the largest corporation in the world despite its well-known practice of treating its "Wal-Martians" in a (heh heh!) sub-optimal manner. Of course, that's probably because its workers are easily trained and easily replaced, nearly a fungible commodity.
Insofar as they can get away with it, its because the other employment opportunities for its employees are worse or nonexistent.
Who knows if they market model will last forever.
(Insofar as they can get away with it, its because the other employment opportunities for its employees are worse or nonexistent.
Who knows if they market model will last forever.)
Walmart benefitted from having young employees, with low health care costs and few retirees. These employees were given stock in lieu of some salary, which works as long as the stock keeps going up. Whne the company, and the workforce, ages, and the stock starts going up, we'll see how well they do. My guess is they'll do OK, but not as well as in the past.
The MTA should run as efficiently as possible, and try to cover as much of its expenses from fares as possible. The more it does so, teh more it will be able to improve service. Fool's gold -- higher wages and less working years before retirement for employees, saving the fare, lower subsidies -- nearly killed the system once. It can happen again.
Walmart benefitted from having young employees, with low health care costs and few retirees.
Wal-Mart actually hires many older people. Most likely, these older workers are looking to supplement their retirement incomes rather than trying to support themselves or their families, and hence aren't too concerned about the low wages.
Wal-Mart also hire a large number of handicapped people.
Elias
The MTA should run as efficiently as possible, and try to cover as much of its expenses from fares as possible.
Unfortunately, the MTA has assets that they are not exploiting. Assets that can provide revenue that at the very least will help to protect the fare. (Yes, the fare will have to go up no matter what.... but other income is also a good thing no?)
1) Rental or Retail space in subways.
2) Rental of Resturant Space in subways (especially since resturants must have restroom facilities)
3) Voulnteerism: Railfans (of sorts) to man information kiosks in important stations. Bet you you *could* find some, eh?
4) Communities 'adopting' a station, fixing it up and keeping the station clean, and special. (ie. the local Lions Club or Garden Club) Might do wonderful tings for many of the elevated stations.
And I'll bet you we could find other assets that would help the bottom line *if they tried!*
Elias
Rental of Resturant Space in subways
Walking through Times Square station yesterday (from the 2 to the Shuttle) I was reminded of the huge lunch counter restaurant that used to be on the south wall of the passageway, just to the right (west) of the BMT entrance.
The TA got rid of quite a bit of food vending and other revenue opportunities because they decided that having people getting food and maybe walking away and dropping litter (and therefore having to maintain that endangered species, the station cleaner) was more trouble than it was worth.
Such facilities existed for decades. I guess the TA could be so cavalier at such revenue producing concessions, since they're so much more skilled at whining to politicians for money.
decided that having people getting food and maybe walking away and dropping litter (and therefore having to maintain that endangered species, the station cleaner) was more trouble than it was worth.
It is a fairly simple proposition. You make maintenance of the are the responsibility of the tennant. McDs keeps their joints spiffy.
Instead of the old lunch counter in the open, I am thinking of enclose, air conditioned retail spaces, with a place to collect the litter on the way out.
Have plenty of trash recepitcals around. Heck they could even be self cleaning!
Elias
kindda like 42st 8th ave PA.
4) Communities 'adopting' a station, fixing it up and keeping the station clean, and special. (ie. the local Lions Club or Garden Club) Might do wonderful tings for many of the elevated stations.
I know the parsons blvd on hillside has a plaque on the east fare control that says that hillcreast (ghetto school) HS sponsors it. Though I doubt that they still do that.
"4) Communities 'adopting' a station, fixing it up and keeping the station clean, and special. (ie. the local Lions Club or Garden Club) Might do wonderful tings for many of the elevated stations."
Might not be such a bad idea if done properly. Always wonder tho, what happens to that $1.50 after u pass through the turnstile? How is it distributed?
Take a staion, or a group of stations together, ever 2 cents goes into a box specifically for that station or group of stations maintainance (retiling in the future or other future renovations)
"4) Communities 'adopting' a station, fixing it up and keeping the station clean, and special. (ie. the local Lions Club or Garden Club) Might do wonderful tings for many of the elevated stations."
Might not be such a bad idea if done properly. Always wonder tho, what happens to that $1.50 after u pass through the turnstile? How is it distributed?
Take a staion, or a group of stations together, ever 2 cents goes into a box specifically for that station or group of stations maintainance (retiling in the future or other future renovations)
Does anything like this happen already?
Read through most of the post, but one of the earliest, where Walmart was brought up as an example, raised some other thoughts.
If anything, Walmart has one thing to deal with that the MTA does not… competitors.
Whether the MTA is run as a business, public service, or using the most effective principles from both to achieve effiency, where is the competition? (which gives an incentive to be the best to keep their customers)
The MTA currently control the subways, commuter lines, and majority of the buses without direct competition. One could argue that there are competitors (some bus companies, taxis, your own car, or on a grander scale, government funds) that compete for customers/funds, but the MTA itself is a vast service in the Metroplitan area.
Its like having one grocery store in a 20 block radius of a neighborhood. It become a necessity; it knows it, so on certain levels, it can do what it feels. As annoying as the fare hike is, you cant just say "to hell with' em" and go for the competitor thats at a lower rate (Kmart, Costco, American Airlines, USAir, ect), because there is no other, in this case, subway company
The whole idea of another subway company may be ludicious, but remember, it got the system to where it is now (in terms of competing, to provide this service to the people of this city) Not meant to be childish rantings or knock at the MTA, but just something thrown out to think about… the idea of competition and how it pushes a business, or even a public service to be better. Any thoughts?
The whole idea of another subway company may be ludicious, but remember, it got the system to where it is now (in terms of competing, to provide this service to the people of this city) Not meant to be childish rantings or knock at the MTA, but just something thrown out to think about… the idea of competition and how it pushes a business, or even a public service to be better. Any thoughts?
Well if you go back in time you can look at the pre-1940 BMT Corporation. Ideas like the BMT Bluebirds were born out of a competitive atmosphere. We can only imagine how far advanced subway car design would be today if they had remained in business...
BMT-Lines.com
Whether the MTA is run as a business, public service, or using the most effective principles from both to achieve effiency, where is the competition? (which gives an incentive to be the best to keep their customers)
The MTA currently control the subways, commuter lines, and majority of the buses without direct competition. One could argue that there are competitors (some bus companies, taxis, your own car, or on a grander scale, government funds) that compete for customers/funds, but the MTA itself is a vast service in the Metroplitan area.
You could say that the MTA competes with other parts of the country. In other words, if service on the various MTA lines gets bad enough, businesses can and will begin relocating to other areas. As the state controls the MTA, and obviously has a strong vested interest in business rentention, it does (or should) be concerned about this form of competiton.
"…You could say that the MTA competes with other parts of the country. In other words, if service on the various MTA lines gets bad enough, businesses can and will begin relocating to other areas. "
Agreed.
For businesses, location and access has alot to do with its success; if it not easily accessible, whats the point in staying (then again, some communities may like that, but not going there now). Another factor that has to be thrown which cause many business departure… Rent. Its getting too expensive to keep business or live in Manhattan.
Business like 2 things, low rent and easy access. Brooklyn Marriot can be an example; cheaper to build there but great acess to major lines (inevitably, like Manhattan will get/has become too overpriced, but still, its about accessibility)
Before this gets too long, The point is this is a city, and business (and people) should not be either confined to areas due to transportation or lack there of. Sometime I feel the MTA has too much on its plate and some competition would create the much needed lines, even out the bills, and open the whole city up to more possiblities
And the congregation says AMEN.
Lol And I was going to put "not trying to get preachy"
Everyone in this group has there thing, love, obsession, whatever you want to call it, mine is subway routes and extensions :)
Staten Island Express Bus Service is a perfect example. The MTA ran long, weak, and slow routes. Private carriers charged the same fare and had nicer equipment. MTA got pimpsmacked every day until the union had enough.
MTA orders the same equipment as those private carriers, started running some X17 and X31 trips via New Jersey, boosted services throughout the island and reduces the fare to get rid of most of the competitors. Although Staten Island used to run buses from 1982 in regular service when Brooklyn started getting Nova Suburbans, they also replaced most of the newer Orions and Novas assigned to Staten Island.
Now, only the serious private carriers continue to do business regularly.
I WISH that the MTA could be this responsive citywide. When they get some competition in other places from buses, they just might.
With buses theres a chance, but as for subway/rail lines, the MTA doesnt have the competition, so can move at their own pace :-|
I wonder if Bloomberg, Trump, or some outside company just swept in, got through all the red tape and built a monorail down Second Avenue. Cheaper price, like $1, run effeciently, but kept the profits. How fast would the MTA start tunneling just to knock it out
I've been thinking about that, but monorail requires a 6' median. So what do we do with traffic? Do we:
1) Turn Second Avenue into a two way street.
2) Turn the two westernmost lanes into a transitway for buses and cabs, then have the median, then the general lanes.
3) Wipe out all parking on Second Avenue and pay for 3000 cars to have short-term parking.
I'm leaning towards 2, but 3 is appealing too.
Found this site a while back and couldnt get over this one monorail. Had the track above to cancel out the effects of weather. Posts are off to the side, could be on sidewalks; could work nice for 2nd Ave
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Chiba.html
here another similar on:
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Shonan.html
The sides of the track box could be refaced, so it doesnt look as clunky
Both would be tantamount to putting els on Second Avenue. I have a feasibility study on several monorail concepts from the same web site, and the thickness of both of those monorail concepts would be troublesome in terms of shadows.
Although you could put trucks on the bottom and have a dual mode subway train...and a heavy, complicated piece of machinery.
I prefer the monobeam concepts from Futrex and OTG Incorporated and these concepts can be found at www.futrex.com and www.otg-inc.com. I'm leaning towards the System 21 concept because of the grade separated switches and the fact that you could always stack an express beam above the local beam. However, the HighRoad concept has a turntable that would eliminate the need for loops.
nearly a fungible commodity.
Now there's a vocab word!
Corn Flake is vital to the fabric of American life. Do you have any idea how many people would starve until lunch time if cornflakes were not produced?
AEM7
OMG, I never thought of that! I think we should increase the MTA subsidy so they can make sure that every single rider is presented with a box of corn flakes each morning.
I think we should increase the MTA subsidy so they can make sure that every single rider is presented with a box of corn flakes each morning.
We recently bought a box of made-in-Egypt corn flakes at one of those 99-cent stores. They weren't bad, actually.
Can we get premium Corn Flake Special K Strawberry Edition if we buy a monthly Metrocard? Also, the Metrocard needs to mark "off" once it has been swiped for the first time on a given day, so that monthly Metrocard holders can't scam the system.
AEM7
Only enough cornflakes to eat in 18 minutes.
There is something called a snickers bar. High calorie, and sweet. gets you up in the morning. I wish they woould fortifie it with vitamins and minerals like they do with real ceral.
That is how NJT works. Its a private bussiness/corporation w/ a State Contract. The state pays them an annual fee to run the services and they can pocket any extra they make on said services. Bacially, NJT Copr Profit = State Subsudy + fares - operating costs. I am pretty sure that the state owns the rolling stock and also pays for capital improvements.
What does "they can pocket any extra" mean? Where does this "profit" go?
It goes to NJT and their owners as NJT is a private corporation. They are contracted to run whatever service the state DoT thinks is necessary. I believe that NJT is paid a subsudy that combined with the fares and other revenue streams funds the service and provides NJT Corp with a fair market rate of return. If NJT corp finds a way to cut costs and still provide their contractual obligations they can do so and pocket the differance as the budget is worked out at the beginning of the fiscal year.
It goes to NJT and their owners as NJT is a private corporation.
But who actually gets it? Shareholders? Officials? WHo gets to actually spend it?
If the money goes into the corporation, what is it spent on?
It goes to fat bankers in the Bahamas then it gets paid out as interest to state officials who have Bahamas bank accounts as a "special dividend".
It goes to fat bankers in the Bahamas then it gets paid out as interest to state officials who have Bahamas bank accounts as a "special dividend".
I'm sorry, but I am not allowed to discuss that customer's secret illegal bank account.
I don't know if its privately owned or publically traded. All I know that NJT is a private contractor, not a state owned bussiness like the MTA, LIRR or MNRR.
If only NJT were a private corporation. Read this...
http://www.njtransit.com/an_corporateinfo_history.shtm
...and then please stop spreading falsehoods.
David
NJ Transit is, in fact, a corporation run for the public benefit. It is owned by the citizens of the State of Neew Jersey,with the federal government having jurisdiction stemming from FRA regulation, and NJ Transit's use of federal capital funding and operating subsidies etc.
I just read that webpage. It left many questions unanswered. What I want to know is how this institutional arrangement is any different from that at LIRR. NJT is clearly the operator here, and LIRR is also an operator, and both provide service as dictated by NJDOT and NYSDOT respectively. How is it different?
AEM7
I think the confusion is that "corporation" is being equated as "private business." A corporation is simply an "artificial person," an entity that is legally treated in many ways as though it were a natural person.
The LIRR was rechartered as a public benefit corporaion. It is a separate legal entity, notwithstanding its having to follow the bidding of the MTA and NYSDOT and could legally be sold back more or less intact to the private sector. (Don't hold your breath for this to happen.)
I think this is loosely what happened with the Penn Central -> Conrail -> NS/CSX deal.
a detail or two. early in the PC bankruptcy, the consultants analysis presented what was ultimately allowed--jettison 80 % of the route mileage losing only 20% of carloadings. BUT when originally formed Conrail was designed to CONTINUE most routes thus its first years it soaked up money just as the predecessors had. It was the change in Federal policy which resulted in the massive abandonnments of the early 80's by ALL of the majors, which allowed Conrail to become 'profitable' (not counting the Fed money or the payoffs to the predecesor co's.
One mght remember that 1. CS (pre X) blinked in 1976 when offered E-L and RDG/CNJ for $1 and the continuing union contracts, then when the Feds sold Conrail back into the stock market NS tried to buy it all. CSX used every political card they had to block NS resulting in a two decade span for a successful operation.
I think the way it turned out was for the best all around.
I don't know the circumstaces of the offer of E-L/RDG/CNJ to NS, but as a shareholder I don't think I wouldn't have been thrilled to purchase these so long as Conrail remained in existence as a government-supported entity, if indeed that's what the offer would've entailed.
As a stockholder, I disagree. The Chessie System's lack of a decent route to NY (the largest market d'oh) was always a weakness. IIRC, Conrail was notorius for delaying the 'run-through' connections for them. Remember also, that B&O had oqned 42 & of RDG so that part of the deal was essentially giving them back their own WITHOUT the indebtedness. And at the time E-L was the ne functional RR in the mix. Immediately after the onral takeover E-L engines were everywhere--they were still running, and it had been E-L which did the thrugh runs w/BN of containers resulting in pix of BN F45's (a personal asthetic favorite) in NJ.
Of course the old Erie 'wide guage clearances' weren't a bad bargain either. 20-20 hindsight for dounle stacks. It was the Staggers Act which changed the playing field for everyone. As a final thought, contemplate the cash outlays for lobbyists, the stock prices etc. of the final Conrail split and the intermediate fight when the IPO happened--would the cost of having a competitive route to New York have been so high?
I see your point, but there may be a little 20-20 hindsight there.
Knowing the nature of government, and not knowing that CR would eventually be completely returned to the private sector, CSX could have ended up with a hostile competitor with access to government influence and the government purse strings.
I can see people on Capitol Hill blustering about "boosting Conrail against the unfair competition of the money-grabbing CSX Corporation, interested only in profit and not the public interest."
Tell me it couldn't have happened.
FWIW a recent Trains Magazine article gushed all over CS (X) political savvy and lobbying efforts preventing NS from getting Conrail in round 2 (the IPO in the 80's) . But you are correct that other scenario's could have happened. BTW it was the "USRA" (2) the Fed created advisory group which wanted to give E-L and RDG/CNJ to Chessie in 1975-6. I believed at the time it was a good deal. It was said in the railfan and business press that Chessie was unwilling to take on the labor contracts without major concessions. I am sad that the Erie west of PA/Buffalo is weeds now. They were never my favorite but they had class. I once got off the B&O in Akron to take an E-L train the rest of the way to Chicago costing several extra hours just to sample the route. It was a nice ride even without the B&O amenities (dome, nicer diner). I also later, rode the last westbound Phoebe Snow out of Hoboken to Scranton.
once got off the B&O in Akron to take an E-L train the rest of the way to Chicago costing several extra hours just to sample the route. It was a nice ride even without the B&O amenities (dome, nicer diner).
The Erie was like an unwanted stepchild in the whole Conrail deal. Erie joined Conrail relatively late in its planning, resulting in many Erie lines getting the axe just because Conrail had already got its routes planned out and didn't want to mess with it. However many parts of the ex-Erie still exists as shortlines. In fact there is one section that is still used today as a CSX mainline, albeit single tracked. That section is between Galion (Ohio) and Marion (Ohio). In that section the Big Four (CCCStL) shared a RoW with the Erie, and when Conrail chose its RoW through Mansfield (Ohio) they chose to keep the adjacent PRR mainline to Bucyrus (Ohio). The Erie RoW between Galion and Mansfield still exists, and is a pretty good bike ride. The old Erie depot on Washington St in Galion is very pretty also.
Oh my goodness. I miss Ohio.
Map. The Erie is shown as "Conrail Railroad" next to Rt. 309; the CCCStL went Northeast towards Crestline (Ohio) where it crosses the PRR. Today the Erie is abandoned and the CCCStL line is CSX.
I have photos from Galion depot and various other places along that line. Will post them if I get a few requests.
AEM7
That doesn't answer my question. Let me restate my question. How is the institutional arrangements under which LIRR is operated is different from that under NJTransit?
I did not mention the word "corporation" in my original question.
It is important to realize that NJTransit and LIRR routes do not "go out to bid". NYSDOT and NJDOT designs the services, and LIRR and NJTransit hire railroaders to operate them. NYSDOT cannot suddenly decide that another "corporation" can run those services instead of the LIRR. Likewise, NJDOT do not put their rail operations out to bid.
AEM7
What exactly does NYSDOT have to do with the operation of the Long Island Rail Road? LIRR is a component of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA). LIRR is a corporation, with all of its stock owned by the State of New York.
David
With the day to day operation of the LIRR, nothing. Nor does the MTA, for that matter.
NYSDOT and the MTA, acting singly and together, have the power to specify broad requirements for the LIRR, from planning to service levels, and coordination with other entities of the MTA.
More particualrly, the LIRR ultimately relies on NYSDOT to approve its planning ideas, especially capital plans.
To my knowledge, NYSDOT has absolutely nothing to do with operation of the LIRR. The MTA's capital program (LIRR portion and otherwise) is overseen by the Capital Program Review Board, which is a state entity that is not NYSDOT. Service levels are determined by the LIRR and approved (or disapproved) by the MTA Board.
David
[More particualrly (sic), the LIRR ultimately relies on NYSDOT to approve its planning ideas, especially capital plans.]
Um, go back and re-read David's post. He clearly stated that LIRR was part of MTA, not NYSDOT. While both ultimately report to Governor George, they are NOT the same agency.
That, by the way, is the primary organizational difference between the MTA and NJT. NJT is explicitly part of NJDOT, with the Transportation Commissioner doubling as NJT's Chairman. The MTA, on the other hand, is completely separate and distinct from NYSDOT.
So you're saying NYSDOT is a highway agency and they don't have anything to do with mass transit or commuter rail? I find that very surprising. How are they supposed to coordinate investment? AEM7
On paper, this may be true. But we're dealing with political relationships here, not just corporate ones.
On paper, neither the Governor nor the Mayor can directly do a d*mn thing about the MTA and its subsidary and affiliated agencies, but when they announce certain things they happen. How do you think these things happen?
One of the conduits of power and politics is NYSDOT. When there's horse trading between diverse interests, NYSDOT is there. And that's about all I should really say about the matter.
On paper, the Governor appoints the Chairman of the MTA Board, and thus has full control. If the Governor wants to (illegally) divert MTA's sales-tax-for-transit funds to restore Joe Bruno's barn door (again!), the Chairman will cheer and applaud like a good puppet.
I *promise* I am NOT going to carry on with my political speeches prior to the "reset" here ... but just to put this in perspective from someone who WORKED for the Paturkey (and Padre Mario as well) and covered politics at the state level for nearly 20 years and a former PEF member who worked with the legislature and the "second floor" I do need to comment here.
The MTA board is appointed by several political interests, but the MAJORITY of appointments comes from the "second floor" (Governor's office with the "advise and consent" of the NYS Senate (Bruno). The preponderance of STATE interest trumps the CITY by an order of magnitude. NYSDOT is ALSO the "second floor" but MTA will trump DOT whenever it involves mass transit and the railroads and busses. NYSDOT may refuse to fix potholes and might not fix the bridge on time, but MTA calls the shots on its own turf and all it oversees, subject to "the pleasure of the governor." (this last phrase by the way is LAW - the Governor can fire anyone on the spot if he's not pleased, such is the reality of those in "Management Confidential (OMCE) and appointees." There's no union representation, so they do what they're told. ALWAYS.
Second floor tells any subordinates to dance, and the top hats and canes come out. Diversion of funds is also at the pleasure of the governor. And yes, if money is wanted for a certain train station, it gets diverted on demand or heads roll.
Bear in mind ... folks living in the city keep their eye on City Hall. Things like the MTA were created out of political expedience since folks in the city are largely unaware of even the EXISTENCE of the state government and even if noticed, ignored. This is how thing can get done owing to the parochial mindset of folks in the city blissfully unaware of what upstate is doing when nobody's looking.
But NYSDOT? Only important in their OWN mind in the greater scheme. Da Gov wants something, he GETS it. :)
Having explained that the MTA is actually a "state" entity, you guys are going to LOVE this as I pull two threads I replied to together into a "uh-oh" ...
Had a friend of mine over Saturday night who happens to work for a city Assemblycritter who was telling me one of those "you ain't gonna believe THIS sh*t" ... David Gunn, "Mr. Amtrak" basically shot down Joe Bruno's $53 million railroad monument over in Troy. As a result, the station will *NOT* be used by Amtrak. Among some of the plans to escape the "New York Museum of Boondoggles and Waste" status now applied to the station (I posted a link to the political cartoon in the Times Union a week or two ago here) our anointed are plotting a new scam ... "who do we stick with the bill before WE get blamed for this mess?"
Talk has gone around about the CDTA (Capital (sic) District Transit authority) converting the train station into a glorified bus terminal as a "Joe Bruno Regional Transit Center" or an even BOLDER move ... thumbing the legislative nose at Amtrak and demanding that the MTA *extend* Metro North to "Albany/Rensselaer" and take away the run from Amtrak entirely, making the Joe Bruno Boondoggle into the northern terminal of MNRR instead of Poughkeepsie. Sticking point is the good Senator wants to EXEMPT his county from having to pay the MTA taxes which are paid by people NOW served by the MTA in their "county."
Now THERE'S a scam ... what's being kicked around is diesel service from Poughkeepsie similar to the old days when you'd change trains at Croton if you were going north to avoid electrification costs for NOW while they continue to strongarm Amtrak to buy the pig in a poke. If Amtrak doesn't relent, then electrification to Rensselaer, once again at MTA expense, so as to open up the shrine one way or another.
Just thought folks would be interested. Legislature's closed right now, so if this IS for real, it'll be a while before they invoke this little plot. But it's a hummer. It'd put MTA out instantly for $53 million, plus trains. No cost to Bruno's district though and the reason WHY this is being floated is "cheaper fares to NYC by letting MTA do it instead of those awful, expensive Amtrak folks."
Moo.
WHOA! Since I go to school in the Capital District, I'm going to have my bucket of popcorn out to watch this drama unfold.
Hey, I'll use the station if you subsidize me :)
Glad for us insects to know the State of New York looks out for those it considers human beings.
Rail politics *is* a spectator sport. :)
DING DING DING DING! Round, I mean track one :D
Heh. Now if only it could be more like the XFL ... hell, I'd settle for our leaders wearing boas and latex tights. Ewwwww.
NO NO NO! Unless it was on Pay Per View :)
Has anyone bothered to speak to CSX about this? How would they feel about more passenger trains on those tracks? And aren't those Metro-North trains geared to 90MPH only? Boy, just imagine this scenario:
"Dude, I was chasing this Metro-North train on Track 1. All of a sudden, an AMTRAK train pulled up on Track 2 and I nearly wet my pants! Two Gennies going head-to-head, with the passengers cheering inside. AMAZING!"
This is going to be great!
Actually, Rensselaer and south is CPRail country - doesn't turn to CrashSmashX until it crosses the river and blows past Smallbany without stopping. CPRail has no objections to Amtrak and has already agreed to having rails moved if Amtrak wanted that. Unlike CSX, CP believes in cooperation so long as it doesn't harm their scheduled runs. They're pretty flexible.
But don't be placing any bets ... I'm sure this is nothing more than one of those lead-filled political trial balloons ... put the rumor out there so Amtrak will say, "ooooooooo, we're so scared, we'll do whatever you want." Just another shakedown yahoo upstate sidewalk act. :)
I can't see ripping off the MTA for free trains flying downstate. Assuming anyone would notice, of course.
I could...they could charge more on our phone bills to extend the MCTD north to Saratoga Springs and Schenectady. Then, MTA can run to Saratoga and the commuter rail too. They could put a 2 or 3% tax before someone starts crying.
It'd never happen in Joey's district. If his constituents had to pay a tax, he'd explode. That's why I get such a chuckle out of all this. He thinks that the MTA would come in and do it all for free PLUS take that useless rail station off his hands. Of course, all of this is to squeeze Amtrak since many believe that they're making fistfuls of cash on the Empire Corridor. Heh.
But Amtrak wouldn't be the first or the last "business" driven out by a political shakedown.
*COUGH*,*COUGH*,Enron,*COUGH*,*COUGH*
One minute, they are doing a feasibility study on an oil pipeline through Afghanistan, the next minute bombs are falling on weddings and they are out of business. Just goes to show how quickly things can change.
He could package an increased downstate tax with the arrival of new train cars to replace the ACMU 1100s (all of a sudden, Metro-North could always tag on to LIRR's order, even if they are not fond of the cars), hold steady commuter rail fares, increase shuttle buses from the new MCTD district territories to the existing rail stations to meet the MNR trains, and increase our taxes downstate (in the existing zone) on phone bills by burying it in those "improvements".
Good thing the state doesn't have cruise missiles then - Amtrak'd be a goner. In all sincerity, I see this as nothing more than a political game of chicken, but yeah should be interesting to see what happens. After all, no BILLS have been introduced ... this was a "leak." So far I note none of the press has picked up on it as yet and that makes it all the more suspicious.
The Metro North Bombardiers are limited to 100 mph the MNCW gennies are 110 just like Amtraks.
Thanks for the correction.
How would you feel about taking a Hudson Line train from GCT to Croton Harmon with two stops (125 Street and Yonkers), then all stops to Albany? You might be able to run bus times with that schedule.
"How would you feel about taking a Hudson Line train from GCT to Croton Harmon with two stops (125 Street and Yonkers), then all stops to Albany? You might be able to run bus times with that schedule. "
IF the MTA ran trains to Albany, they'd probably be semi-express above Croton (e.g., Peekskill, Beacon, PGH, Rhinecliff, Hudson), with a connection to a train making all stops to PGH. In other words, only 2 stops more (Peekskill and Beacon) than the current Albany trains.
Sounds unlikely though. Even if Bruno wants it, the NIMBYs in northern Dutchess County have already vetoed MN expansion to Rhinecliff, so it's not as though there wouldn't be political opposition.
Ain't that a kick in the head[and I mean KICK!!!].Wasn't that idea floated around years ago or something? I mean, it would be nice to have MTAMR up here[fare would be cheaper, thats for sure]but..WHO'S GONNA PAY FOR IT??? US???? THATS WHAT ITS LOOKING LIKE TO ME!!!!. Isn't it enough that I pay for schools,CDTA,and every darn thing else around here,whats next? get taxed for clippin' my freakin toenails? ComeON... There has to be a better way.... this sucks Big time!!!!
Well, the most telling thing is that the bill drafting people haven't heard doowahdiddy about this, so it sounds like nothing more than a blind threat that has no meat behind it. Certainly hasn't impressed GUNN from the looks of it. :)
But for now, the politicos are on hiatus, stuffing their wallets. Shhhhh. Be vewy vewy quiet. Heh.
A corporation is simply an "artificial person," an entity that is legally treated in many ways as though it were a natural person.
Are American corporations liable to an inheritance tax then? It's one of the great unfairnesses of British taxation that every 30 years or so a family gets hit with 40% (yes, it is that extortionate) inheritance tax, but companies don't get taxed when their members die or step down.
Corporations don't die in the sense that natural people do. If a corporation is dissolved, the assets are distributed according to the corporate bylaws and federal and state law. This may result in taxable events for the recipients of these assets. So in a sense, the people who "inherit" the corporate assets pay an "inheritance" tax.
If a shareholder dies, his or her shares become part of their estate, and are subject to inheritance tax. This might mean Ronald Rich, who owns 80% of $20,000,000,000 GreediCorp or it might mean Joe Blow, how owns 6 shares of Duff Beer Corporation, valued at $2.29 plus tax and deposit.
Is it different in Her Majesty's Realm?
Is it different in Her Majesty's Realm?
Sadly not. It's one of my pet peeves that we know how long a generation is on average from taking a census every ten years, but we still don't charge companies 40% of their value every generation. We are throwing away good tax money!
But as I pointed out, the corporate assets are essentially subject to inheritance tax as the shareholders die and pass on their assets.
What you are essentially proposing is a bit different. You are saying that (if a generation is 30 years, say) the government should expropriate 40% of the company (in addition to taxes paid by the shareholders) every 30 years.
Put it in a physical terms--a farm corporation owns a 1000 acre farm. In 30 years the government seizes 400 acres, in another 30 years, another 240 acres, and so on.
It's the same thing Castro did in seizing business property without compensation, just slower. At least Castro made no bones about what he was doing.
But as I pointed out, the corporate assets are essentially subject to inheritance tax as the shareholders die and pass on their assets.
I disagree. The individual is being taxed for his assets in the comapany's liabilities, but the company are not being taxed on their assets.
What you are essentially proposing is a bit different. You are saying that (if a generation is 30 years, say) the government should expropriate 40% of the company (in addition to taxes paid by the shareholders) every 30 years.
Once the value of the assets reaches the threshold of £258,000 (circa $385,000), yes. This is only one artificial person, remember.
Put it in a physical terms--a farm corporation owns a 1000 acre farm. In 30 years the government seizes 400 acres, in another 30 years, another 240 acres, and so on.
And once the farm is worth less than £258,000 there is no tax. Fair is fair. If I owned a £300,000 farm, I'd get taxed on it at 40% in, say 30 years, when I die. If I called myself James Dowden Ltd, in 30 years, even if I died, I wouldn't pay a penny of tax on it - worse still, James Dowden Ltd would get charged a lower rate of income tax (so called "Corporation Tax") than plain old James Dowden while I'm alive. British Tax law is so set out so that individuals are swindled by both government (overtly) and business (by their unfair tax advantages).
It's the same thing Castro did in seizing business property without compensation, just slower. At least Castro made no bones about what he was doing.
Yep, it is like Castro. But if the British Government want to behave like Castro to individuals, then it's only fair they behave like Castro to companies. I actually have less of a problem with government behaving like Castro to companies, but that is a point of politics not fairness.
But if the British Government want to behave like Castro to individuals, then it's only fair they behave like Castro to companies
What about just moving to a country that has provisions like "no uncompensated taking of property" in their constitution? :-)
AEM7
What about just moving to a country that has provisions like "no uncompensated taking of property" in their constitution? :-)
I don't agree with that 100% so I wouldn't, thank you.
If I called myself James Dowden Ltd, in 30 years, I wouldn't pay a penny of tax on it even if I died
But this is still what I'm not understanding, unless British law is somehow different from U.S. law.
In the U.S., you don't just "call yourself" James Dowden Lid., you form a corporation which may be "James Dowden Ltd." or it could be "Moo Cow Farm, Ltd." I point this out to correct the misconception some people have that you, personally, can become a corporation.
If you incorporate and you are the only shareholder, there are now two entities, Jams Dowden, a natural person, and James Dowden, Ltd., a corporaion.
If James Dowden the person dies, the shares in James Dowden, Ltd., become the property of James Dowden (the natural person)'s estate. This estate pays estate taxes on these assets.
James Dowden the farm doesn't even know James Dowden the human is dead.
You can form a company as an individual in Britain. It is used a lot as a device by IT consultants to subcontract themselves out and pay 10% rather than 40% income tax. They then pay themselves "expenses" tax free. This is one of the unfair advantages which I am objecting to.
The other unfair advantage is a conmpany being allowed to hold assets in itself, not the human beings involved. It is as if one has created some sort of deity, immortal and invulnerable.
"You can form a company as an individual in Britain. It is used a lot as a device by IT consultants to subcontract themselves out and pay 10% rather than 40% income tax. They then pay themselves "expenses" tax free."
You can do this in the US too. However, the "expenses" allowed tax free are only the ones that your employer would be allowed to take if you were a salaried employee. For example, you can't use this dodge to deduct your expenses for commuting to work. You can't deduct a home office unless you truly have no other place to work. To deduct inappropriate expenses would be tax evasion and a criminal offense. (Which is not to say that some consultants in the US don't criminally evade taxes).
Also, self-employed people have to pay their entire social security tax, instead of only half, so this usually more than offsets any tax benefits.
For example, you can't use this dodge to deduct your expenses for commuting to work.
What about employer sponsored T-pass schemes? Surely then the employer is paying an expense for your commute?
AEM7
This is indeed a special expemtion in the tax code. Take a look at schedule C instructions. They make it VERY clear you can't personally deduct commuting expenses.
You can form a company as an individual in Britain. It is used a lot as a device by IT consultants to subcontract themselves out and pay 10% rather than 40% income tax. They then pay themselves "expenses" tax free. This is one of the unfair advantages which I am objecting to.
OK, but is that strictly legal? Or are these IT guys simply using the corporation as a shield to mask funny business? IOW, if they're paying themselves a salary and calling it "expenses" this would never survive an audit. At least not in the U.S.
You can put anything on your tax forms you like. You can expense your ferrets' Weasel Chow, you can write your spouse off as a capital loss, you can put your goldfish on retainer. But you should just picture yourself explaining it to the IRS.
OK, but is that strictly legal?
Yes, 100% legal.
IOW, if they're paying themselves a salary and calling it "expenses" this would never survive an audit.
Except you can pay yourself in expenses for all sorts of things. Even when you do have to pay yourself a salary, you keep it low. Face it, by getting your salary down into even the 22% band you win.
The Inland Revenue can fume as much as they like, but there is nothing they can do on this one. It is variously termed a loophole and a bugger-up.
If British tax law is so easy to get around, how high-paid entertainers like Mike Jagger have elected to live elsewhere to avoid them.
And didn't he just get an MBE to boot?
The easiest way to avoid them is to live on the Isle of Man.
MBEs etc are often given out in a wholly populist fashion.
MBEs etc are often given out in a wholly populist fashion.
I was clued into that when the Queen gave them to the Beatles.
I just thought that giving MBE to someone who has so openly avoided Her Majesty's Tax Collector might be viewed as a mixed message. :)
I just thought that giving MBE to someone who has so openly avoided Her Majesty's Tax Collector might be viewed as a mixed message. :)
Oh utterly, but this is a corrupt country.
Then you realize that the inheritance is essentially wrong?
I meant: "Then you realize that the inheritance tax is essentially wrong?"
I wouldn't say anything was essentially wrong. I'd just say that inheritance tax as currently set up is not a fair tax.
Life is not fair. Why am I born to be 5'5" whereas that German guy next door was born to bang his head on the ceilings of subway cars?
Life is not fair.
That is not a reason to go around making it even less fair.
What do you think government are for? :)
What do you think government are for? :)
Taking all our money and spending it on useless stuff?
AEM7
In a democratic system confounding government with politics. In a single party system simply confounding government.
>>> And once the farm is worth less than £258,000 there is no tax. Fair is fair. If I owned a £300,000 farm, I'd get taxed on it at 40% in, say 30 years, when I die. <<<
That is a tough law. I would expect that you would be taxed 40% of £42,000 (£16,800), the difference between £300,000 and the value of the exemption. You should have an insurance policy that would pay that much to your heirs so they can pay the inheritance tax, since it is presumably not an unexpected expense.
Perhaps your gripe should be with the amount of the tax, or amount exempted. In the U.S. there is no inheritance tax for estates less than $600,000.00, and our wonderful Republicans have passed a law to phase it out completely. Without any inheritance tax there will be a continuing concentration of wealth with the rich getting richer. Since there is a finite amount of goods and services backing the money supply, if the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer. Once the gap gets too great, the proletariat starts to call for the heads of the idle parasitic rich. If the exemption were raised to say $5 million, there would be enough for anyone to provide for a decedent's immediate family, and no need to break up family farms. But if someone is transferring great wealth upon death in the range of $10 billion, I see no problem with the government taking up to half of it. It is not likely that the heirs will be in the street with tin cups.
Tom
Without any inheritance tax there will be a continuing concentration of wealth with the rich getting richer.
That is simply not true. Family estates require careful management to stay in shape. Most families (especially ones with large estates) tend to have more than one children -- they get split up that way. It's very easy to spend all your inheritances and end up with no money. The fact that people maintain their inheritance generation after generation is result of their hard work in managing the funds and the estate. You should not take any of it away from them. If there were a high rate of inheritance tax after a certain amount, then there is less and less reason not to dismantle your estate during your lifetime, spending money on needless crap rather than managing it wisely.
AEM7
Oh utterly - even if one has no children, it is always better to leave your estate to a nephew rather than a brother so the taxman only gets you once.
Even better, the funeral expenses come out of the estate before tax. So a nice irresponsible way of cutting the taxman's pay is by having a really nice funeral!
So a nice irresponsible way of cutting the taxman's pay is by having a really nice funeral!
Why not just donate tha $ to a registered charity in the will? It's tax deductable.
AEM7
If a shareholder dies, his or her shares become part of their estate, and are subject to inheritance tax. This might mean Ronald Rich, who owns 80% of $20,000,000,000 GreediCorp or it might mean Joe Blow, how owns 6 shares of Duff Beer Corporation, valued at $2.29 plus tax and deposit.
Most decedents' estates are not subject to any inheritance tax, and the tax itself is being phased out (but may return 10 years from now).
Most decedents' estates are not subject to any inheritance tax
You are fortunate it is like that in the USA. In the UK the threshold has been rising at a rate lower than inflation, so now the middle classes are getting hit hard by inheritance tax.
Let's be direct. The government has gotten away with inheritance tax for middle class people because people tend to regard an inheritance as "found money" and have been acculturated to believe that any time they get money the government is going to get part of it. So if they're left $10,000 and the government gets $2,000 of it, they figure they're still ahead $8,000. Especially since the estate is taxed directly, so they don't ever really see the $2,000 go bye-bye.
If the government thought they could get away with it, they'd have my kids declare the value of their Big Macs and Small Fries with Thick Shakes (can really add up over a year) as income.
great unfairnesses of British taxation that every 30 years or so a family gets hit with 40%
There are ways round that. You have to transfer the money slowly, and before you die. Or you can do it through off-shore tax havens. Anyway, it isn't unfair. If you are going to die, then what's the point of having all that money? You can't take it with you. Inheritance tax should be 100%.
AEM7
Don't believe in the concept that you earn your money for yourself and your family, and when you die, your family is more entitled to it than the government, huh?
I guess you also propose that your family be thrown out of their house when you die. It's part of your assets, after all.
Inheritance tax should be 100%
Oh man - that would change our society and not necessarily for the better. I know if that were the case I would not be putting one dime into savings or investments of any kind. I'd spend it faster than I got it - and go deep into debt as well - I would manage my life so that I would die leaving nothing but mountains of debt and no assets to go to the gov!! ;-) But I would enjoy living every minute - Home theater with 100 inch wide screen HDTV (running a custom designed computer simulation of a BMT Standard on the Broadway - West End route), etc etc - you get the picture....
The bottom line would be why bother saving or investing in anything if it would all go to the government.
It'd be like Germany after WWI.
You can't take it with you.
Sure you can!
Deposit your money in CitiBank.... They got offices all over hell.
: )
There are ways round that. You have to transfer the money slowly, and before you die.
Restrictions not placed on companies - you see it's not a level playing field at all.
If you are going to die, then what's the point of having all that money?
What's the point of a company having any assets once its founder is dead? Creating artificial immortals is not really fair.
What's the point of a company having any assets once its founder is dead? Creating artificial immortals is not really fair.
Corporations are separate legal entities with (in theory) perpetual existence. They are not supposed to be mere alter egos of their main shareholders.
Corporations are separate legal entities with (in theory) perpetual existence.
I object to that in principle.
What really matters is that NJT (and the LIRR) gets public funding. That makes it, in essence, a governmental entity regardless of its specific corporate structure. Does anyone really expect otherwise?
What really matters is that NJT (and the LIRR) gets public funding. That makes it, in essence, a governmental entity regardless of its specific corporate structure. Does anyone really expect otherwise?
The Airlines just got tons of Govt Funding... but they are not govt entities.
All sorts of corporations have contracts with the govt, but they are not govt entities.
Meethinks you need to thinks this some more..
: ) Elias
What really matters is that NJT (and the LIRR) gets public funding. That makes it, in essence, a governmental entity regardless of its specific corporate structure. Does anyone really expect otherwise?
The Airlines just got tons of Govt Funding... but they are not govt entities.
All sorts of corporations have contracts with the govt, but they are not govt entities.
Meethinks you need to thinks this some more..
The airlines did not just get government funding. Some of them got federal loan guarantees, which if all goes according to plan (in other words, if the airlines recover financially) will not require the outlay of taxpayer money. It also was a one-time program enacted in response to the unprecedented events of September 11th. Corporations with government contracts get paid for selling products or services to the government, just as in any business transaction.
NJT, the LIRR, and other commuter lines get ongoing infusions of taxpayer money, indeed could not survive without that money. But as I said, so what? We all understand that transit is a vital public service and is deserving of taxpayer funds.
Well, if you're going to post that, why not share some of your thinking with us? Tell us why.
Has anyone noticed the following:
In the early days( Noted as of january 2002)of the R142A cars on the 6 line some announcements read as follows, All changes appear in caps:
This is One Hundred Twenty Fifth street. Transfer is availiable to the Four and Five EXPRESS TRAINS. Connections are availiable to Metro-North AND THE M60 BUS TO LAGUARDIA AIRPORT.
On the <6>: Transfer is availiable to the Six local TRAIN.
Today, there are some differences ( noted as of last weekend):
This is One Hundred Twenty Fifth street. Transfer is availiable to the Four and Five. Connections are availiable to Metro-North. Transfer is availiable to the M60 bus to Laguardia Airport.
On the <6>: Transfer is available to the six local.
Unfortunately the last part of my message was cut off, and reads as follows:
If Subtile Announcement Modifications can be done on technicalities such as Differenciating between a transfer and a connection, Why not on pertinent information like transfers and service changes?
I was wondering how in recent years they skip so many numbers between "R" car class types. In the 30's, we had the R1, etc, then not skipping too many numbers, not too far off to the R10's, the R16's, the various IRT R-twentysomethings, the R27-30's, the R32's, R38's R40's and so on. Then we get a big jump from the R46's to the R62's, and then an even bigger jump from the R68's to the R142's and just between the R143's and the R160's there is a big jump.
I know that the contract "R" numbers are for more than just trains, but how did we get from the 30's to the mid 80's (50 years) with just R1 to R68, and in the 15 years following it jumped all the way to R160? Where are all the numbers in between, and why are so many more skipped now than we did in the past?
Check this out, it will explain it to you.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/bytype.html
Sorry, I don't know how to do links.
The "R-" number is the capital contract number issued by the MTA. Some capital contracts are for subway cars, others are not.
No. 'R' is a Rolling stock contract. It is used ONLY for subway cars, work equipment, and items related to them. Note also on that list, that only some of the overhauls have R contracts.
-Hank
Thanks, I never noticed that list here. I guess the "gaps" are just because they've been buying a lot more things lately.
Hank is correct, the R-'s do not include all capital spending. My error! But you get the idea.................
Yeah, it makes a lot more sense now.
I know some people on SubTalk said it was hard to read the blue on my website, so some of the Blue, I changed to have Bold text and some of the text is grey, Let me know what you all think.
Here's the Correct Link:
Amtrak Modeling Layout
MBTA Capital Plan -- 2020 Vision
I guess these people at the T actually have some vision after all. I'm really quite impressed with all this. Do you think they will get all this done by 2020? It appears that Silver Line is not part of the 2020 Vision, though...
AEM7
Question,
Just yesterday I was looking over the MBTA website and its subway map. On the Redline, does one train end at Ashmont and you transfer to another train for the ride to the last stop at Mattapan? If so, why is it set up this way?
Thanks for any info.
The Red Line rapid transit service ends at Ashmont, and then you transfer to a PCC trolley for the ride to Mattapan. The line to Mattapan is very low-density suburban and quite scenic in addition to having quite a few grade crossings, and doesn't have the ridership to justify being converted to grade-seperated rapid transit.
IIRC, for operational reasons within the MBTA, the Mattapan Trolley actually falls under the Green Line's jurisdiction, but is shown as part of the Red Line on maps to avoid confusion.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks that explains it!
Yes, At Ashmont you transfer to the Mattapan High Speed line with PCC. Note:Blue line doesnt show extention to Lynn so whatever you here the T has NO intentions to extend the Blue Line by 2020 Stevie
Can you tell us where on the MBTA's site this is located, so we can read the text associated with this plan, or are you just going to tell us that it's YOUR dream, and not really planned?
-Hank
It's located on AEM7's own website at MIT. Maybe it was planted there by an MBTA operative. A search of the MBTA website for a "2020 Capital Plan" revealed nothing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I guess that the old proposal to extend the blue line to Lynn has not been pursued.
Wow, what a coincidence! I just found a CTA Capital Plan on my own website. What are the odds?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Why is the CTA Circle Line not in that capital plan? Has it been replaced by the "Yellow Line" to Skokie?
AEM7
Where is this "Downtown Map" to which the master plan refers?
I never got around to drawing it. Sorry.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That circular Purple Line would be a real pain in the ass - both to operate and for riders. It would suffer from many of the same problems as the Circle Line in London.
Nice touch restoring some service to Watertown.
You don't like the Circle Line?
Actually, Circle lines are not pains in the ass to operate. It's just London's incompetence. Plus, they have Circle Line sharing tracks with other lines. Of course there are problems. Chicago is pursuing a similar plan, but they don't have as much track-sharing on their Circle Line as they do in London.
The Purple line really isn't a Circle Line. It's really a crosstown Line (like the G train) which happens to turn back on itself. The Purple and Blue lines could in fact be swapped to make Harvard-Bowdoin and Wonderland-Harvard-Watertown.
The Purple Line is actually much needed. The buses that currently run on the route of the Purple Line are totally packed throughout the day.
AEM7
I agree with you that Boston could use more fixed-rail transit service.
The "purple line" idea sounds fine, but change the color so people don't confuse it with the commuter rail. -Nick
It is annoying getting held for large amounts of time at Aldgate, Edgware Road, or any other random station they decide to do that at just to confuse the half asleep into thinking that it is indeed Edgware Road. The Circle Line schedule of 8 minute headways is simply not true - it is normal to wait 10-20 minutes for a Circle Line train, by which time (depending on where you're going) you could've gone to Aldgate East or Earl's Court and doubled back. Plus, very often it is very indirect - eg try walking from St Paul's on the Central Line to Mansion House on the Circle Line; ride the Circle Line to Liverpool St and the Central Line back to St Paul's - you will find that walking is much quicker (okay, that is a particularly stupid one, but it is an illustration of a much more general point).
Operationally speaking, I understand the Circle is an absolute pain. There are no termini, so delays build up during the day. The only way to counter delays is to hold trains at a few stations for inordinate amounts of time and annoy the hell out of the passengers who just waited 20 minutes for the train anyway. Then there's all the problems caused by (clockwise from Aldgate) merging with the District Main Line, demerging with the District Main Line, merging with the District Edgware Road Branch, merging with the H&C Line, merging with the Met Main Line, demerging with the H&C Line. Then there are the complicated arrangements to get trains off Circle Line service...
All off this builds up to make the Circle Line the worst line on the London Underground, despite the District Line's best attempts:
from http://victorian.fortunecity.com/finsbury/254/
District Line, hometime, me and several hundred other passengers and indeed the station announcer at Earl's Court were thoroughly confused by the signal men. I hopped on the tube at Victoria thinking that I was on a Richmond bound train. At Earl's Court, the platforn indicator said Parsons Green. I ignored this as ...well, when did you last believe what the indicator at Earl's Court said? Anyway, there were several loud announcements and it turned out that the train was going to Parson's Green. Unfortunately the carriage was packed with Italian students who didn't get off. Now maybe they knew something I didn't, because they all carried on to Parsons Green, which is completely in the wrong direction to Richmond. Perhaps I should have been public spirited and said "Are you sure you all want to go to Parson's Green", but my Italian is non existent, so I didn't!
Anyway on the platform of Earl's Court, the female announcer was beginning to get a bit harrassed and apologises for the boards and enthusiastically tells us that the next Richmond train is just leaving South Kensington and will be with us in four minutes time. She then gave us minute by minute updates apologising for the confusion.
Four minutes later and the train appears with 'Richmond' on the platform indicator. We're all about to pile on the train, when lo and behold it changed to 'Parsons Green' again.
"I am sorry," the announcer says "I was told this train was going to Richmond and the signal men have changed their mind and this train is now going to Parsons Green".
The same thing happened with a train that was supposed to be going to Ealing Broadway and ended up going to Wimbledon instead.
Another four minutes and a Richmond train appeared. The announcer was now in full swing "The train at platform three is not going to Parsons Green but to Richmond. The train approaching platform two is also not going to Parsons Green but to Ealing Broadway. These trains are not going to Parsons Green despite what the signal men think."
It is annoying getting held for large amounts of time at Aldgate, Edgware Road, or any other random station they decide to do that at
It's called headway management (see previous thread), although it might be done badly on LUL.
The Circle Line schedule of 8 minute headways is simply not true
I've never waited for more than 5 mins, and I've often come charging into Circle Line station at KingsX bound for Paddington.
ride the Circle Line to Liverpool St and the Central Line back to St Paul's - you will find that walking is much quicker
Circle Line is primarily an East-West circulator and not a North-South circulator. If you're going N-S, take the Victoria, Northern, and the Bakerloo. For what it is designed for, it is very effective, and it sure beats a Paris layout that resembles springing spaghetti liberally over the city without a way to simply travel crosstown.
There are no termini, so delays build up during the day.
There wouldn't be problem with delays if there were no schedule. The fact that they are trying to adhere to a schedule suggests that it is badly managed. The real issue is the track-sharing with the Hammersmith & City. If there weren't any flat crossings and no track sharing with any other line, Circle Line would run as smooth as a camel's ass.
Then there are the complicated arrangements to get trains off Circle Line service...
It's called a pull-out. Standard procedure on CTA. It's just the LUL that's incompetent. And they built the wrong kind of half-assed infrastructure.
AEM7
I guess there is still no plan to connect North and South Stations together, eh? -Nick
I got lazy, didn't want to mess with commuter rail. AEM7
There is a number of different turnstile messages that show when you drop your token in each turnstile or swipe your MetroCard.
A list:
GO
TOO SLOW SWIPE AGAIN (Is there a message stating 'too fast'?)
$1.50 BAL $--.-- (I think I'm missing a line)
* PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN
AT THIS TURNSTILE
* PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN
INSUFFICIENT FARE (I've never swiped a card like this through the actual turnstile; anyone else know?)
Anything else?
What gets me the most are the two messages marked in an asterisk.
Under what conditions would the turnstile display "PLEASE SWIPE AGAIN AT THIS TURNSTILE?" I've never seen that before but only the other one.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
This message appears when You've swiped the metrocard many times, and is preceeded by " Please Swipe Again".
There is also:
TOO FAST
SEE AGENT
JUST USED
Swipe again at this turnstile pops up when the machine *thinks* it has already deducted a fare but couldn't read the card correctly, so it asks you to swipe again to make sure. People who ignore the message and use a different turnstile often end up paying double.
BTW: I once accidentally almost used my regular Metrocard on a school day, and got that message when I aborted mid-swipe. The reader indicated the fare had been deducted, but I opted to instead use my student pass anyway. The next time I used my regular card, it was in that exact turnstile, and it DIDN'T deduct an additional $1.50! So it has a long-term memory!
There's also other messages:
ALREADY EXPIRED
NOT VALID NOW and EXCEEDED DAILY LIMIT for student pass riders.
Funny you should mention that. I have been unable to pass through the turnstiles with my employee MetroCard for the last two days. The turnstile would display Please Swipe Again. I would motion the Station Agent in the booth to allow me entry. When I ran my own card through the Booth Computer, it said I swiped it at such and such a time and at the location that I was unable to get through. Employee MetroCards behave like Unlimited MetroCards. Swipe It Once and you go in. Swipe it again at the same location, and it might say you've just used it. Then you wait 18 minutes before you can go in.
I decided that after two days it wasn't turnstiles, it was my card. There had to be some way of fixing it. I cleaned the magnetic stripe with a little bit of alcohol and VOILA! The card was as good as new. I'm glad I didn't have to go and exchange my card....
-Stef
suggestion- carry some head cleaners with you. They can be used to clean your pass too as well as the turnrstile.
When going from bus to subway, something like:
GO 1 X TRNSFR OKAY
For years, we've heard they are planning to re-direct trains at Atlantic Avenue on the L line to eliminate the two block separation of the 2 spurs. Why is it taking so long? Seems to me that little progress is being made...yet they've eliminated the flyover from L to J lines which would provide more varied service for Canarsie.
Anybody care to comment...
the J connection was in place as of yesterday
The J connection was in place as of yesterday
The flyover between the J and L will be put back when construction is done. (at least that's what I heard here at sub talk) I hate to see things downgraded, but I feel this is a good idea consolidating operations at Atlantic Ave at the current Canarsie bound platform. The glory days of that station are over - the Fulton el is never coming back, the abandoned center platform is an eyesore, and all that el infastructure is not necessary anymore. When the project is done, Atlantic Ave area will be much easier to maintain, and surprisingly, IIRC, Atlantic is the LEAST use station in Brooklyn (aside from the shuttle), and that's even with a LIRR connection! So all that infastructure is unnecessary.
As a matter of fact, Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line is the least-used station in Brooklyn, period. In 2001, there were 237,260 riders. Next least-used in Brooklyn was Bushwick-Aberdeen, also on the Canarsie Line, with 261,750 riders.
Park Place is the only station on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle that is not part of a complex and thus has its own ridership count. In 2001, it had 617,390 riders. The other shuttle stations, which are part of complexes, are:
Franklin Avenue (Fulton Street): 1,436,566 riders in 2001
Botanic Garden (Eastern Parkway): 3,723,728
Prospect Park (Brighton): 2,397,512
All I can say is "WOW". And this is a station that connects to the LIRR!!!! I do use that connection quite often. (obviously, one of only a few.....)
How about something happier... what are the most used stations on the Canarsie Line?
They would have to be all the Manhattan ones, and I'm sure the "transfer" ones like Lorimer, Myrtle, and Broadway Junction. I don't know what order they would be in, but I'm sure that they would be on the top of the list, followed by all the others, with poor Atlantic at the bottom.
I can try-- The Manhattan side of First ave, Along with bedford are brutal. I have to give the AM S/A lunch and the lines can be very long. If a Monday is also the first fo the month they are really very long. Now throw in a Holiday on Monday and even worse.
Lorimer is fairly busy due to the G Line. Myrtle/Wyckoff is busy due to the M and is busy all-night. Rockaway parkway is busy due to the bus transfer inside the paid area.
The Canarsie side of Third av is slow during the AM Rush but many board at Canarsie side of First av.
As far as 8th av-- I imagine it is busy due to the IND, Sixth is not too bad- the main booths serve the F line and a part-time for the L (and two more part-time for the F at the North Ends).
I have been stuck at DeKalb on the L during the earliest end of the Rush and it was starting to get busy.
Where does the L train stack up in comparision to the other lines in the system? To me, it always seems like a fairly busy line, even in the middle of the night. I guess what I'm really asking is what are the busiest lines in the system, to the one with the least ridership? I would assume that the 4 would be one of the busiest (or one of the other Lexington routes), and the G would probably be near the bottom, if not the least ridden. Does anyone know how each line compares?
I work a night lunch on the L. many nightsm even at 3- 3:30am it is still standing room only and around 1130-12 midnight it is almost rush hour loads.
I have not seen the dolalr figures for 2001 or any other year . What they dont reveal is how the money is earned:
let's say station red does $600 and station blue does $600. They appear to be the same. Let's look further-- station red sells $15 cards so it would be 40 customers. Station blue sells $3 cards for 200 customers. With this example (made up stations) station blue is busier-- much busier than station red.
I have worked stations with low dollar amount and had lines all night thanks to "add 50 cents or one token" all night. I have worked other statiosn with higher dollar amounts and had no lines due to higher purchase level per customer.
Doesn't ridership go by the turnstile passes though? Using your example, Someone buys a $15.00 metrocard at station red, but uses it at both station blue and station red for round trips. Station blue was used as many times as station red, but only station red got the dollar amount, and station blue got $0.
Yes and no. I was referring to the s/a who is busier at station blue with the $3 cards and the add 50 cents all night. If I mislead you, I am sorry.
let's say station red does $600 and station blue does $600. They appear to be the same. Let's look further-- station red sells $15 cards so it would be 40 customers. Station blue sells $3 cards for 200 customers. With this example (made up stations) station blue is busier-- much busier than station red.
It's a reasonable assumption that station red is in a much more affluent area than is station blue.
Given enough time, it's probably possible to make a reasonably accurate income map of NYC subway-served neighborhoods based on MC purchase patterns.
Not necessarily. I worked one station in an affluent area and sold nothing but add 50 cents or three dollar cards all night with no stop.
>>>...and had lines all night thanks to...<<
I never wait on lines, I haven't dealt with a "booth monkey" in over 4 years....MVMs ALL THE WAY!
Peace,
ANDEE
You are in a minority. Most passengers prefer the human to machines and I am not talking about recent immigrants or senior citizens. I am talking about people in three piece busienss suits. I can not print the language I hear about the machines.
I respect your opinion, but can the MVM call for help if some disturbed person tries to hurt you or if you get sick. We are needed even if we dont sell to monitor station conditions.
A station agent CANNOT:
Accept payment with plastic.
Sell me a fun pass.
Peace,
ANDEE
The rules should be changed then in my own opinion. I don't like the idea of running my money through ANYTHING Microsoft pooted out. I too prefer to deal with a carbon based lifeform over a silicon one, even if they look at me like I'm from another planet. :)
But that FUNPASS *did* make a world of difference when I last visited, and that's what I'd want to do. But I demand my 20 seconds of attention from a carbon based lifeform even if I have to pay a little extra to get it. I'd love to see how the rules have changed for the "table" and how much like a coupier token clerks (sorry, but I still call us "motormen" too) has to be to dance safely under the limbo bar these days. I remember watching my bills and change sitting there by the slot (far enough away that *I* couldn't reach it of course once surrendered) and I remember the "L-shaped" sweep of the TA coinage and grab of the funds in almost a choreographed move that tells ya "no sidewalk acts on MY watch, kid." Heh. I miss that caution.
Feed NTee the right digits and it'll spit like a damned slot machine. Heh.
What's the reason station clerks can't sell "fun passes", and you can only get them at newstands, etc?
"What's the reason station clerks can't sell "fun passes", and you can only get them at newstands, etc?"
Officially: because selling them at booths would cause too much congestion.
Cynically: because then too many people would buy them and the TA would lose money.
With the prevalence of MVMs that sell Funpasses, the cyncial explanation is losing its credibility.
"I never wait on lines, I haven't dealt with a "booth monkey" in over 4 years....MVMs ALL THE WAY!"
Sir.. What is your definition of a "booth monkey"? Is it a particular type of person, please describe. thanks!
N bwy
>>>Is it a particular type of person?<<
No, just anyone trapped in a token booth for 8 hours.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ok.. thanks for you explanation.
N Bwy
"I never wait on lines, I haven't dealt with a "booth monkey" in over 4 years....MVMs ALL THE WAY!"
Sir.. What is your definition of a "booth monkey"? Is it a particular type of person, please describe. thanks!
N bwy
I too am curious. Andee, care to comment?
-Stef
Just recycling a phrase created by another poster on this board. No harm intended, just found it humorous.
Peace,
ANDEE
"I never wait on lines, I haven't dealt with a "booth monkey" in over 4 years....MVMs ALL THE WAY!"
Sir.. What is your definition of a "booth monkey"? Is it a particular type of person, please describe. thanks!
N bwy
OOOHHHH!!! Not PC!!!!! Write up the G2!!!! In the twenty first century, carbon based life forms exchanging monetary units for subway access tokens will be eliminated by Borg Tech MVMs. Tukass seating wil be replaced by HyTest PPE shoes. Buttwarming in HVAC environmental chamber will be replaced by pacing the platform. Any TA employee who responds to 'definition of BM' can lose their employment. Serious stuff that Jay Street takes seriously and TWU 100 pulls their hair out about.
As of 2001, here are the stations with the highest annual ridership figures on the Canarsie Line (for complexes, the other lines served are in parentheses):
Union Square (Lexington Avenue/Broadway): 26,068,141
Sixth Avenue (Sixth Avenue/Broadway-Seventh Avenue): 13,215,582
Eighth Avenue (Eighth Avenue): 8,159,404
First Avenue: 4,574,737 (highest Canarsie Line station that's ONLY served by the Canarsie Line)
Bedford Avenue: 4,246,410
David
Wow, I didn't realize that Bedford was such a busy station, especially for a non-Manhattan, Canarsie only station!
Chris
Wow, I didn't realize that Bedford was such a busy station, especially for a non-Manhattan, Canarsie only station!
To be clearer, I mean a station that only serves Canarsie Line trains....I can hear the punches now, "What do you mean it only goes to Canarsie and not Manhattan" lol. I admit, when I reread it, that's what it sounded like to me, so I'm sure others would have read it like that also....
Bedford is busier than the numbers show. The station has a problem-- adults with children over 44" and not paying for the kid. There is also a large number of fare beaters . In some cases the kid is taller than the parent and I get the line "But they are only 3 years old" (off .the record-- yeah, and I am five years old).
Bedford is busier than the numbers show.
Any idea why Bedford's so busy?
Oh and what's so special about 44" as a height - I mean it's not a particularly round number in either imperial (3'8") or metric (1.118 metres)?
Its in Willamsburg, very populated area and one stop outside of Manhattan, easy access.
If memory serves, 44" was determined to be the average height for a 6-year-old. The child's free fare requirement used to be age-based, but that ended several years ago after a multitude of fights between Railroad Clerks (at the time) and customers over how old the customer's child was.
David
There are still disputes! They claim the kid is 3 years old (t is always 3 years old!) and the kid is taller than the parent by miles!
Bedford is in an area which is becoming gentrified as a new SoHo with many artists and musicians moving into the area.
Yes, but now it doesn't matter how old the kid is. It goes by height...there's nothing to argue about.
David
height prejudice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It all works out. Short people have the advantage of free entry for a longer part of their childhood -- but when they grow up to be short adults, they find that the horizontal bars on trains get higher and higher with each rolling stock order.
I know that, you know that. Many customers think it is still age and when I remind them it is height they say they'll pay for the kid tomorrow (which never comes--when the next dya arrives it is the same story.) Or theyll tell me *bleep* you and pusht he kid udner if the kid comes out.
I asked a police officer and got the personal response (face to face- no customer around) that it is up to each indivudal officer whether to press the issue. I have had officers handle it both ways-- make the kid pay and those that let the kid go.
Bedford is in an area which is becoming gentrified as a new SoHo with many artists and musicians moving into the area
That wouldn't sound like the sort of area where there would be many people with children, at least not compared to other parts of the city. If I recall correctly, however, you mentioned that you had been in a number of child-fare disputes at Bedford. I suppose the station must draw passengers from some locations outside the new-Soho neighborhood.
There are quite a few children entering the station -- both with adults and using shcool passes. I guess that there must be non-gentrified areas nera the station or they use the bus to get to the station. When a card is swiped we do not know if they used the bus to get there unless we check their card due to a problem.
[Bedford is in an area which is becoming gentrified as a new SoHo with many artists and musicians moving into the area.]
What's that got to do with the 44-inch height requirement? It applies system-wide.
Should a particular neighborhood be exempt from the fare just because gentrification (the new "urban renewal") is being shoved down its throat?
Of course not. NYCT should also put up posters on the height rule and in multi-langugae verisons.
Know where I can find those numbers? Pretty please!
Write to NYCT and ask for the 2001 subway and bus ridership report.
David
OK, thanks.
Too bad there isnt more of a purpose to it, like the set up.
If it could have continued and dropped down to the LIRR to Flatbush or even Coney Island
(The flyover between the J and L will be put back when construction is done. (at least that's what I heard here at sub talk))
There is one thing I don't understand about this project. According to Peter Doughertys' book, the connection from the Canarsie Line to the Broadway Line will be restored, as you say, but no connection from the eastern end of the Jamaica Avenue line to the 14th Street-Eastern Line will be built.
Why not? Perhaps I just have a thing about subway service over suspension bridges, being 20 years into a service disruption on the Manhattan Bridge. But all things considered, you'd think the MTA would be interesting in building alternatives -- like the DeKalb Rutgers Connection, or a way from Jamaica trains to head for 14th Street. It certainly would have been useful during the Williamsburg Bridge shutdown, no?
And what is the purpose of the Canarsie/Broadway connection? Perhaps if ridership continues to boom in Wiliamsburg, Greenpoint and Bushwick, they plan to divert the Canarsie trains to Broadway. But the Canarsie line will be CBTC, and the Broadway Line is not.
before the switches at Broadway Jct on the L were installed, they used the J station for the L shuttle to Rockaway Parkway in conujunction with shuttle bus service from Myrtle to Eastern arkway on the J /Broadway East NY on the A/C (Both are renamed to Broadway Junction).
its back now, i saw it there on friday
The NY Post has never met a transit fare increase it didn't like...and today's editorial is no exception. It compares a proposed $2 fare with other Northeast transit systems and pronounces it a bargain.
If you're an $8 an hour floor swabber, $2 per ride is a big piece of your salary. Heck, $1.50 is.
The Post? "Let 'em eat cake"
www.forgotten-ny.com
SEPTA's cash fare is $2, and it's outrageous. Tokens cost $1.30.
THE PROBLEM is that many stations don't have token vending machines, and token sales clerks only work on peak hours. If you need to take a train at 7 pm from most of the stations, and you are without a pass or token, you are forced to pay $2 to the booth attendant.
>>THE PROBLEM is that many stations don't have token vending machines, and token sales clerks only work on peak hours. If you need to take a train at 7 pm from most of the stations, and you are without a pass or token, you are forced to pay $2 to the booth attendant.<<
Maybe SEPTA should look into a farecard system like Metrocard with the free transfer feature like ours. This is long overdue.
Bill "Newkirk"
SEPTA'system is so far flung and so fractionalied that trying to set up a sinple, easy to understand fare system that would work in a system that has constant money problems, multiple fare zones on the surface systems, railroad style fare on the commuter rail lines is well nigh impossible.
Everybody looked at Baltimore as being nuts when we threw away a fare system that had existed for over a century and instituted a system that has a flat fare for a single ride, no transfers or zones, a day pass (sold on all buses and subway/light rail ticket machines) and weekly/monthly passes. The MTA even has MARC monthly tickets good as a pass on the city system. MTA and WMATA are talking on integrating the two system's fare systems.
It sounded crazy, but it worked! Ridership went up, even on the buses.
SEPTA's people came down, looked at it, and drooled.
Baltimore did a good thing. They also expanded service (light rail to Camden Yard etc.). A pretty decent system, and you've even got an airport rail station.
True. You have to consciously use a station (like 11th street or 30th Street on the Market-Frankford Line) or visit a sales office, to buy tokens. Some retail (convenience stores) stores do have them, but they are not nearly as ubiquitous as the Metrocard.
You know what? If it were up to me, ATMmachines would sell Metrocards. Your choice of withdrawals would be cash or a Metrocard. I'd sign upas many banks as possible to do that and link the necessary dispenser to the ATM's machinery (and integrate it whenever a new ATM was being installed).
There are ATMs at a bank near 71/continental which do sell Metrocards. But the last time I used it, the cards were BLUE.
What's wrong with Blue Metrocards? Are they like Blue M&M's?
>>What's wrong with Blue Metrocards? Are they like Blue M&M's?<<
Blue M&M's would taste better anyway.
My guess why the MTA dropped the blue Metrocard in favor of the gold one is that the new gold Metrocard had much better transfer priviledges the blue one didn't have.
This would tell people that the blue Metrocard didn't have the enhanced transfer feature and to distinguish it from the blue one. They probably didn't want to retain the old color and go with the new one as a marketing device.
Bill "Newkirk"
The color was changed for marketing reasons. There is no differnce in the cards from a technical standpoint. I used my blue card for many months after the free rides\transfers went into effect.
Metrocard GOLD was a complete new introduction to the riding public of the previously little used metrocard system
There are ATMs at a bank near 71/continental which do sell Metrocards. But the last time I used it, the cards were BLUE.
Are you METROCARDCOLORIST? What's wrong with BLUE Metrocards? Are they like BLUE M&M's? Are they PERSECUTED by other METROCARDS? Clearly not. Therefore, a Blue Metrocard should be judged on its MERITS, i.e. how much VALUE it has remaining and not by its COLOR. If you were YELLOW, does that mean you are any more of a METROCARD? I think not.
AEM7
HEHE. Blue MetroCards only offer the free transfer program for one person, while MetroCard GOLD offers transfers for up to four people. All of the school MetroCards are probably Blue MetroCards in white clothing for easier identification when school is NOT in session.
I remember when I use to take the B41 to school, and grown adults would get on and flash the paper bus passes. Also people would just keep the old passes, cut out the colors and numbers to create a new pass; flashed it so quick the driver never knew.
Metrocards do carry a relivance, avoiding things like this occurring. Also keeping tabs on where ur traveling during the day :-|
I wish they would bring back the blue metrocard -
the color was so intriguing...
I still have ablue Metrocard. It was my first Metrocard.
I also got a Yellow one.
Last time I was to the city I used tokens.
Gotta get one of them day passes the next trip..
Elias
A day pass looks exactly like a regular, gold MetroCard. There is nothing exciting about it except it lets you ride all day.
Several Republic Bank ATMs advertised that Metrocards were available. They were always out of stock when I tried to use them. Now HSBC owns them and there's the ATM surcharge so I don't use them.
$2 is a big chunk? For a 40 hour workweek, $8 an hour makes for $360 a week. Take-home is around $296 (assuming total deductions equals 18%). Round trip to and from work is $4. 5 days a week is $20 for transportation, or 6%. A total of $1 per day more than the existing cost. That's before the expected discounts. Completely affordable. Even on unemployment, because that's how I'm doing it.
-Hank
Still, $2 is a lot for a train ride, it's a psychological barrier, like $10 for a movie.
Hey, I think the minimum wage should be raised to $15 and the CEOs, top management, baseball players and TV human broomstick actresses should not be paid obscenely the way they are.
I'm just not supervisor material...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just remeber what happened the last time politicians "listened" to the people and "saved the fare," while agreeing with the union and raising wages and cutting years worked before retirement, AND cutting tax-based subsidies to divert money to other things. Win, win, win right?
We've seen this movie before.
The real question is whether they will raise the NYC transit fare to $2.00 while keeping the commuter rail fare the same. The financial structure of the most recent MTA capital plan makes this possible. All the reissued debt was merged together, rather than kept separate, and backed by the transit fare. They could just designate transit fares, and not commuter rail fares, to cover debt service, and voila the "wasteful" NYC transit system has a deficit, and the "efficient" commuter railroads do not.
So no one has any more thoughts on the MBTA 2020 Vision? I would have thought that the Red Line Extension to Watertown would invite controversy.
AEM7
Was this your own "dream", or did the MBTA actually propse this? -Nick
I think it has been established by several requests, which have gone unanwsered, for the web address where this plan could be found, that this is his personal proposal. That in itself is fine, many of here at Subtalk have plans that we would like to see implemented, but his presenting it as an offical offering from the MBTA is misleading to say the least.
A few posters have said they have searched the MBTA website and have found no mention of this plan or proposal.
Ok, I guess some ideas from a subtalker can't do any harm! :-) -Nick
For those who haven't seen the new 2003 edition or heard talk about it, the calendar will be a WTC salute edition. Eleven of the twelve monthly images have a outdoor scene with the Twin Towers in the distrance from any one of the five boroughs. The twelfth image is of Cortlandt St. WTC on a Low-V fantrip five years before it was partially destroyed. The front and rear cover feature a four car R-46 at Smith-9th Sts. station. The front on October 1978 and the rear on the first Saturday after 9/11 with a wisp of smoke rising from "Ground Zero" with the towers absent.
Here are list of some vendors who are selling the calendar.
Steve Bogen (Quadrant Press).....Seen at some NYC area trainshows
Kevin Farrell (kevin@trainbooks.com) Boston area
Alan Zelazo.....NYC & NJ area (subwayal@aol.com)
Willis Hobbies.....300 Willis Ave, Mineola,LI
Shoreline (Branford) Trolley Museum gift shop, East Haven,CT
Red Caboose, 23 West 45th ST, NYC
Manhattan Trains 14 West 45th St, NYC
or see me personally at the ERA NY Divison meeeting. 3rd Friday night of the month. St.Johns University Auditorium 101 Murray St, NYC
The Transit Museum Gift Shop hasn't take them yet, but will in the near future.
Penn Books in the LIRR arcade of Penn Station usually sells them after Labor Day.
Coliseum Books which has sold the calendar for many years went out of business several months ago.
My apologies for the delay of mail order which was supposed to be kicked off this week. A death in the family set me back one week. Any future announcements will be updated.
Bill "Newkirk"
Newkirk Images
How do you get Transit Museum to carry things? Why don't they carry Peter Dougherty's Track Map?
AEM7
It's one of those 9/11 things.
>>How do you get Transit Museum to carry things? Why don't they carry Peter Dougherty's Track Map<<
I spoke to the buyer of the Museum and spell out the specifics. After showing the sample they decided to carry them. As for Peter Dougherty's book, I cannot explain why they don't.
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks for the update, Bill...I'll definitely pick my copy up in the near future. Sorry to hear about your families' loss. -Nick
Hi. Wanted to know if any pictures from old calendars were available for sale. There was one great picture (of many) I think from the '98 or '99 calendar of the Broadway el near Gates Ave. station with the Bushwick theatre in it.
>>Hi. Wanted to know if any pictures from old calendars were available for sale.<<
Sorry to disappoint you, but original images from the subway calendar are not for sale.
Bill "Newkirk"
One NICE thing though about your calendars ... they'll *NEVER* make it to the landfill! If 2001 was any indication of what's to come, I'm *psyched* ... I only regret that I haven't seen any of the priors. Perhaps one of these days, you might "webify" some of the "classics" (trash the resolution if you must for artistic integrity) but man, I'd LOVE to see your EARLIER stuff ...
There's a 1978 photo of an R-42 D train on the Brighton in one of the calendars.
I love these calanders. I've got every one. Every year I buy two copies. One is for use, it goes on the frig and I write appointments and such in it. When the year's up, I'll cut out my favorite shots for hanging on the wall. The other copy goes in the files in its pristine condition.
Alan Glick
I was pointed to an article about Darius McCollum, the railfan who has been in jail because he refuses to stop impersonating transit personnel, with possibily dangerous conswquences.
I don't think this has been posted here before.
The boy who loved transit: how the system failed an obsession.
They play around with "Asperger's" throughout the article: "a neurological disorder called Asperger's Syndrome might explain Darius's behavior"; "There was a strong consensus in the Asperger's community that Darius suffered from the syndrome"; and so on.
For G-d's sake, Asperger's is a diagnosable disorder. Since there is a liberty and treatment issue at stake here, take the man to a doctor--better a team of doctor's knowledgeable in Developmental Disorders--perhaps a psychiatrist, a neurologist and Ben Casey (as a tie-breaker) and attempt to get a formal diagnosis.
Once diagnosed or not, it could change the entire complexion of Darius' situation. The answer might be that he might have to spend the rest of his life in a structured environment, but since I don't have an MD after my name (and even if I did, he's not my patient), it's not my call.
The only thing that's obvious to me is that he's a compulsive railfan. There are a lot of compulsive railfans (this surprises you, right?) but not all of them are autistic.
My impression is that Darius' advocates are hinting he's Asperger's to try to gain leniency from the judge. They might not want to attempt a formal diagnosis in case they can't get it.
The article also talked about how, at the prosecution's request, the jailors and judge blocked a test for Asperger's from happening.
Unless you read a different part of the article than I'm thinking of, the judge blocked a request that the "defense could have Darius examined and explore treatment options."
This is jumping the process. By going straight to "explore treatment options" they are are asking the court to accept something which has not been legally demonstrated--that he even has Asperger's. Asperger's, like Autistic Disorder, must be diagnosed by a competent MD, not an "expert" or advocate.
I didn't hear that the judge offered to order a psychiatric evaluation for the purpose of diagnosis, preferably by more than one physician. If the defense asked for that (did they? maybe it was elsewhere in the article and I missed it) I would be more sympathetic to the defense's case.
I will disagree with the judge that "there's no treatment for Asperger's" if he means therapy, though I don't know if any has been demonstrated effective once a sufferer reaches adulthood without it. If he means a treatment that would lead to a cure, he is right, but people get therapy for incurable conditions.
It's obvious Darius has some kind of compulsion. Sooner or later they'll have to figure out something to keep him from repeating the behavior, or else find an appropriate structured environment for him.
>>> If the defense asked for that (did they? maybe it was elsewhere in the article and I missed it) I would be more sympathetic to the defense's case. <<<
I think the article mentioned that the defense was frustrated in trying to get their doctor in to see Darius. They would naturally want their doctor to check to see if an insanity or diminished capacity defense would work before asking a judge to have him examined. If their own doctor said he was OK, there would be no request to the court. After they were unable to get their doctor in to examine him, they finally asked the judge to have him examined, and the judge turned them down for not asking sooner. Kind of a catch 22 situation.
Tom
I made a very short visit to Brisbane, capital city of the State of Queensland, Australia a few months ago, during the subtalk hiatus. It was a business visit and I didn’t get much chance to look in any detail at the city rail system, but I thought subtalkers might be interested in my very superficial impressions. I welcome corrections and additions from any “Brizzy” subtalkers, as there are lots of things I don’t know, including overall route mileage.
Brisbane itself has a population of about 900,000, but the total area served by Citytrain also includes nearby resort areas and satellite towns, and is probably closer to 1.5 million. Like other Australian systems, Citytrain is primarily a city/suburban/interurban commuter system rather than urban rapid transit, with lines radiating out from the CBD, including new lines to the Airport and the Gold Coast (an apalling combination of Las Vegas, Miami and Disney land about 60 ks from Brisbane). Like many former British colonies in once remote areas, the gauge is a narrow 3 foot 6 inches, or 1072 mm.
The system was only electrified in 1979 (before that, it used D/E locomotive haulage, mostly light EMD hood units), which means that the rolling stock is relatively modern. The basic unit comprises three permanently coupled air conditioned stainless steel cars, driving/non-driving/driving, rather like the old BMT C units. Total length of a three car unit is 72.4m. Car width I don’t know, but I felt that it was narrower than Sydney or Melbourne stock, because of the gauge. Power supply is overhead, and collected by a pantograph on the middle car. 8 of the 12 axles in each unit are powered, but I don’t know which ones. Numbers are allocated on the basis of 3 car units rather than individual cars, and trains are normally run in two units of six cars.
There are several different marks of rolling stock involving progressive technical improvements, but to the layperson (which includes me) the cars are all very similar in overall style and appearance, the major differences being style modifications to the fibre glass cab fronts. I took three photos that I’ll try and post separately (I'm not sure how to post from CD) but they show a train of 1996-97 “interurban” stock, built for the new Gold Coast line at the new Brisbane Airport Station (where patronage has been disappointing), but it is typical in general appearance of all Citytrain stock.
My overall impression was of a modern and innovative system. On the other hand, there were signs that Cityrail is not immune from Brizzy’s famous sub tropical culture, which can be described either as relaxed or feckless, depending on your point of view. There was no attempt at any form of barrier control at any of the stations I went through, and the cars were grubby, even by Australian standards. Scatchitti was bad, but that’s hardy just a Brizzy thing.
On the other hand, there were signs that Cityrail is not immune from Brizzy’s famous sub tropical culture, which can be described either as relaxed or feckless, depending on your point of view. There was no attempt at any form of barrier control at any of the stations I went through, and the cars were grubby, even by Australian standards. Scatchitti was bad, but that’s hardy just a Brizzy thing.
How is fare collection (supposed to be) done?
Anyway, thanks for the interesting report. It's surprising to think of narrow-gauge rail being used in a large city.
Thanks
basically, there was a ticket vending machine at each station where you bought a ticket (it took Australian 5 cent pieces, which is a bonus!!) but there was no subsequent barrier control to entry to the platform, nothing to prevent you from entering the train without a ticket and there was no exit control that I saw, although the fares are distance based. I saw no ticket inspectors on the trains.
It is said by some that Clapham Junction is the busiest station in the world. This site gives live train running information - judge for yourselves. There are in fact more train movements than shown on the board, as through trains are not shown.
http://rtti.nationalrail.co.uk/3008/15/15.htm
Simon
Swindon UK
I count 102 trains. Each of the 3 center city Septa stations handle at least 415 trains a day.
You counted wrong. Clapham Jct handles far more than 102, or indeed 415 trains per day. Clapham handles something more like 102 trains PER HOUR.
AEM7
So it is indeed busy. Penn Station is supposed o be somewhere around 700 trains a day. I could be wrong on that...
Big deal. The Times Square complex handles over 200 trains per hour at its peak, on five distinct lines. Even in the middle of the night, it has 39 tph.
And they're subway trains, which means they're actually on-topic here.
I wasn't judging how big a deal it was.
And by the way, our official host, David Pirmann, who is the ONLY one authorized to define what is, or isn't, on topic, has officially stated that any passenger train service constitutes valid fodder for posting.
So there (Bronx cheer).
I wasn't judging how big a deal it was.
Nor was I. I was putting forth the busiest station in the world that I know of, busier than anything anyone else has come up with in this thread. See the subject line.
And by the way, our official host, David Pirmann, who is the ONLY one authorized to define what is, or isn't, on topic, has officially stated that any passenger train service constitutes valid fodder for posting.
Has he? Where? On the index page he asks us to "stick to rapid/rail transit issues only," and 'transit' (as opposed to 'transportation') is typically used to refer to urban systems. More likely, I think, he's opted to turn a blind eye to certain offenses, and that makes sense.
So there (Bronx cheer).
Times Square is in Manhattan (but it's easy to get to the Bronx).
And by the way, our official host, David Pirmann, who is the ONLY one authorized to define what is, or isn't, on topic, has officially stated that any passenger train service constitutes valid fodder for posting.
Where did Dave say that? If he has said so officially, perhaps the Subtalk main page ought to be amended to read "It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to passenger rail issues only."
AEM7
Does this mean no more Amtrak, Septa, NJT, etc.
Sorry I posted in the first place. I just thought you all may find it interesting.
Simon
Swindon UK
I've been posting stuff about Amtrak anyway, regardless of what the "rule" on the site says. There doesn't seem to have been any clampdowns. If there are clamping down actions, I suppose I would just not post...
AEM7
I don't think it's technically on-topic, but unless Dave asks you (or us) to stop, I don't see why you should stop. (I just wish no one would complain when I inject a post that's unquestionably on-topic.) It is interesting.
So -- can any station or station complex top Times Square, either in terms of train movements or in terms of passengers?
Do we need a thread, "Why railroad stations are relevant to railfanning?" I didn't think there was ever a problem as long as it dealt with rail issues, which this does. There have been many threads on Amtrak, Long Island Railroad, freight, Foreign rail, none of which are actually "transit". Was that incorrect? I never heard here that that was a problem until now.
Who said there was a problem? I don't see anything wrong with an occasional intelligent off-topic discussion, as long as it stays civil. But this is SubTalk, not RailTalk. (The final determination is up to our host, of course.)
If it really were Subtalk meaning "Let us talk about Subways", I think I would leave, and many others would leave (e.g. AcelaExpress2005).
To be quite honest, I am not really interested in the inner operating details of NYC Subways (or any subway system), and I really hate those "Where was this photo taken" posts. But I haven't exactly complained. I just don't read them.
AEM7
If it really were Subtalk meaning "Let us talk about Subways", I think I would leave, and many others would leave (e.g. AcelaExpress2005).
Some would; some wouldn't. I'm sure there are others who aren't interested in other topics and are turned off by the large number of posts that have nothing to do with subways; more of them would post here. Personally, I'd prefer separate SubTalk (subway systems only) and RailTalk (other rail systems) fora -- I'd visit SubTalk very frequently and read most posts, but I'd only visit RailTalk a few times a week and skip most posts. (Such a division would probably please you as well.)
But I haven't seen any indication of any imminent change, so what are you worrying about?
To be quite honest, I am not really interested in the inner operating details of NYC Subways (or any subway system), and I really hate those "Where was this photo taken" posts. But I haven't exactly complained. I just don't read them.
As well you shouldn't. Those threads are the reason I come here.
True, You are right, this isn't "RailTalk". I just thought you meant that NO other "rail" things should be talked about. The truth is it is nycsubway.org, and should be majority "subway" type talk. But the few other "rail" topics that come up are a nice mix, with the majority being subway.
I guess, after thinking about it, I come here because it is a talk about the subway. I rarely visit any other of the "rail" boards because even though it does interest me to an extent, it's not really something I want to talk about for the most part, or at least not on a "messageboard". However I do like the few posts that get mixed in here occasionally.
Wait a minute. So would a post about AC traction packages come under "railtalk" or "subtalk"? I have posted a lot of those. The same traction package that is used in R-142's were used on Network SouthEast "Networker" trains -- 100% heavy rail railroad with freight trains running on the system.
(The R-142's have an updated version of the Oynx package)
AEM7
You mean Onyx. Oynx is what I do (actually, what I do when referred to alone in the third person).
heheheh!!!!
I hereby offer Hong Kong's Central and Hong Kong Stations Complex to challenge Times Square!
- Tseun Wan Line (TWL): 128 to 200 second headways = 20-30 tph
- Island Line (ISL): 128 to 200 second headways = 20-30 tph
- Tung Chung Line (TCL): 4 minutes/train = 15 tph
- Airport Express (AEL): 10 minutes/train = 6 tph
So, let's see here:
- Off-peak: 20 (TWL) + 20 (ISL) + 15 (TCL) + 6 (AEL) = 61 tph
- Peak: 30 (TWL) + 30 (ISL) + 15 (TCL) + 6 (AEL) = 81 tph
Therefore, Hong Kong's Central/Hong Kong complex seems to be MUCH busier than Times Square in terms of TPH. Passenger flows, I have no idea...
-J!
Therefore, Hong Kong's Central/Hong Kong complex seems to be MUCH busier than Times Square in terms of TPH.
It is? I already posted that peak service through Times Square is over 200 tph. I can't give an exact number since I don't have access to the exact figures, but I rounded down seriously from my estimate. Off-peak, service gradually ramps down to the late night service level of 39 tph.
Remember, the Times Square complex has the 7th Avenue IRT with local and express tracks, the Broadway BMT with local and express tracks, the Flushing IRT, the shuttle to Grand Central, and the 8th Avenue IND with local and express tracks.
Passenger flows, I have no idea...
Nor do I (although Times Square is definitely near the top of the list). How do we even count this? Number of passengers entering and exiting the station complex? Number of passengers entering and exiting trains, even if many of them are transferring? Number of passengers passing through, including those on trains?
And HOW many routes were there that stop at Times Square? About 10, I guess?
So still, on average:
Central/Hong Kong = 81 tph/4 routes = 20 tph per route
Times Square = 200 tph/10 routes = 20 tph per route
...so I guess it should be about par, if we look at it THAT way.
A, C, E, N, Q, R, W, shuttle, 1, 2, 3, 7. But some of those routes share tracks with others and diverge elsewhere, and three of the lines have side-by-side local and express tracks.
I don't see why you want to divide service by number of routes. Times Square is busy not because one route stops there but because so many routes stop there. Clapham Junction and Penn Station certainly don't get all their business on one route.
Actually, I think I cheated in my calculations without realizing it. Except on the two lines that terminate at Times Square, I counted trains in both directions -- but by doing that, it looks like I'm counting some trains twice. If I count trains going in only one direction, I come up with "only" about 140 tph peak and 21 tph in the middle of the night. (Does anybody know which is the usual way to count through trains -- one direction or both?)
(Does anybody know which is the usual way to count through trains -- one direction or both?)
The normal way is to count through trains in one direction.
The normal way is to count through trains in one direction.
If you're in operations planning, the normal way to count trains is to count the number of train paths. A through train in one direction counts as one train. A through train in the opposite direction also counts as one train. A terminating train may count as one, two, or three trains depending on the amount of time it spends fouling up the interlocking. A lot of it depends on for what purpose you are counting the trains.
AEM7
>>> Does anybody know which is the usual way to count through trains -- one direction or both <<<
If you are determining how busy a station is, you need to count how many stops are made at the station. Therefore both directions would count, but a train that terminates like the Shuttle or #7 would be counted only once each trip.
If you are counting the number of passengers using the station, you would not count passengers that remain on trains passing through the station, only those boarding or leaving trains, including those transferring to another train.
There is a question though whether Times Square should be considered one station, since it was not originally designed as one station, but several different stations which were later joined by passageways.
Tom
If you are determining how busy a station is, you need to count how many stops are made at the station. Therefore both directions would count, but a train that terminates like the Shuttle or #7 would be counted only once each trip.
That's how I counted originally, but it doesn't entirely make sense. It implies that, e.g., 5th Avenue gets twice as much 7 service as Times Square.
There is a question though whether Times Square should be considered one station, since it was not originally designed as one station, but several different stations which were later joined by passageways.
Why is the history relevant? It currently functions as a single station, as much as Penn Station if not moreso (there's a lot more transfer activity at Times Square).
"It implies that, e.g., 5th Avenue gets twice as much 7 service as Times Square."
That's actually true, though. You can get on a 7 train to go somewhere else twice as often at 5th Ave as you can do it at TSQ. You can get injured by an entering train, or stuck in a closing door, twice as often at 5th Ave.
If you start getting ultra-sophisticated and counting how valuable some of the trains are relative to others (i.e., how many different places they take you), you'll never be able to do the calculations. Every statistic (tph, number of passengers entering/exiting, etc.) is an approximation of actual "busy-ness".
Agreed on both, um, counts.
But what about a terminal station where the terminating train relays? It stops twice at the same station, once to drop off passengers and once to pick up passengers. Do we count that once or twice?
"But what about a terminal station where the terminating train relays? "
I'd count it once because you can't get onto it as it heads into the relay. Admittedly, you can get injured in both directions, so that example wasn't a good one.
The straightforward number is:
How many trains can I take in the busiest hour that take me from this station complex to some other place?
This does produce minor distortions (for example, at the Fulton St complex you have J and Z trains that you can only take one brief stop, so almost no one will take them), but it's a simple method and doesn't produce any major distortions.
There are just too many variables for a more accurate count: size of trains (A vs B division, 4 vs 8 vs 10 car trains), how popular the available destinations are, how crowded the trains are, etc. Nobody actually measures the real busy-ness number, which is:
How many people board a train at this station in the busiest hour to go somewhere else?
Sorry I posted in the first place. I just thought you all may find it interesting.
I don't think you should be sorry, I thought it was on-topic and interesting. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think more people found it interesting than those that didn't. It has to do with the rails.....
What it says on the top
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Welcome to the SubTalk bulletin board at www.nycsubway.org. This board can be used for discussions of rail transit systems worldwide. It is not limited solely to New York City topics, but please stick to rapid/rail transit issues only. Off-topic and harassing posts will be removed at the discretion of the management. Please note! This site is not run by MTA New York City Transit!
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Any rail transit system is on topic, so Amtrak and others are on topic as well.
Amtrak is not a rail transit system. Neither is SEPTA, NJTransit, or British Rail. Those are all off-topic posts. I only contribute to off-topic threads. If people don't like it, walk.
AEM7
Amtrak is a railroad system that transports people to different places, how does it not qualify as rail transit?
Amtrak runs the MBTA commuter rail and people do post about the LIRR nobody sees to mind. Steve
Rail transit is the term used to describe things that run on rails that aren't real railroads. They are railroad wannabes. Therefore to call Amtrak a rail transit would be an insult. Amtrak is "intercity rail transportation" -- definitely not transit. Amtrak has class. Subways and commuter rails have no class, except Metro North which has bar cars, and Surfliners which are very classy.
AEM7
Subways and commuter rails have no class
I'd argue against that. If anything I prefer commuter rail trains on their longer journeys. You get your coffee served at your seat, not in a buffet car halfway down a very long train. I'd much rather ride a Class 168 "Clubman" than an Inter-City 225 any day.
I'd argue against that. If anything I prefer commuter rail trains on their longer journeys.
You've not experienced a real train... come here and ride Amfleets outside the Northeast Corridor before Amtrak shuts down :-)
As for the 170's, I hate 'em -- used to ride one to work every day!
AEM7
The truth is, everyone comes here for their own reasons. I think it's safe to say that most people get out of SubTalk what they come here for, otherwise they would stop coming if it "bored" them. SubTalk obviously has the right mix of Amtrak, subway, commuter rail, etc. There's enough "Amtrak" stuff here for the people who like Amtrak, otherwise they wouldn't come come here and stay on an "Amtrak" only board. Or there's enough LIRR stuff for the LIRR people, etc.
The majority of people come here for the subway talks, but that doesn't mean the other occasional topics don't interest them also. And no one says that everyone has to read everything. There are many threads that I don't read because they don't interest me, but then I just don't participate in them or read them. But if other people like those threads, then obviously they should read them and add to them. That's what they are there for!
The majority of people come here for the subway talks
I actually think that assumption is no longer true. Back in the old days, before the hiatus, topic keeping was much stricter and there were a lot more subway people posting. Ever since AcelaExpress2005 and his cohorts invaded this board (as well as people like Chao-Hwa Chen for instance), I think there is pretty much an even subway/railroad constituency. Would be interesting to do a poll so that we have some statistics.
AEM7
Plus, people like me who started out with an interest in subway and ended up becoming more interested in railroads!
As Groucho Marx said, "I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member."
Just to mess with this a bit. What about the SEPTA, MBTA and NJT operations that are clearly Transit? Septa may operate the Regional Rail, definitely not a transit operation. However it also has the Market Frankford and Broad Street subways, the Rt101 and 102, the Sub surface trolleys and the Rt100, all of which are transit operations. Are all of these considered on-topic, even though they are not in New York or a part of MTA? And if you were to say that no, becuase of their lack of proxmity to NYC they are off topic, where would you draw the line? Would NJT's HBLRT be off topic? How the heck would NJT's operations into Penn Station work? Would they be off topic once you clear the west portal of the hudson tunnel? Off to Railroad.net with you! What about PATH? It's a subway that runs into NYC, but has no affiliation with the MTA, would it be spared?
I propose a New Standard! If the operation is mentioned in depth somewhere on this site, such as station-by-station guides and photos and such, it's ok for a topic. Of course this would have severely detrimental effects for those who wanted to discuss the LIRR, since it is surprisingly under-represented here.
Heh, of course I am only kidding, I hope such a crackdown on offtopic posting never comes to pass, however, it does raise some questions for dave, exactly what it off topic, with all the transit systems in NYC, it's hard to get a cut and dried solution.
however, it does raise some questions for dave, exactly what it off topic, with all the transit systems in NYC, it's hard to get a cut and dried solution.
I think Dave already has the right solution. He is very minimal in deleting threads - I can only think of three which he deleted: racism, some of the sillier demolish the Astoria El stuff, and Opera in the Clouds (oh well, I suppose this isn't OperaTalk, but I am an Opera fan as well as a railfan) - presumably all the nonsense which led to the last hiatus is no longer there, but I can't be asked to go searching the archives for that. The one thing I have noticed is how even though the deleted threads are not there any more, the numbers are left there vacant, including the landmark post #300,000 - I can't help wondering what that was and why it was deleted.
I think some person posted "I got the 300,000th Subtalk Post"!!! I forget who it was, but he's a regular here.
Dave was a lot stricter about deleting threads in those days. I once posted something along the lines of "you know you are being neglected by your girlfriend when rubbing arms with the girl sitting next to you on the subway feels good", and Dave deleted it even though it is DIRECTLY subway related. I went on to talk about the Boston Red Line and how it offers good arm-rubbing opportunities because there are no dividers and seats are too small, in that post. I don't think he would delete this thread, but we shall see.
AEM7
HEHEHEHE...that's terrible. Now you are starting a strange thread: which trains have the best looking PEOPLE (you thought I would mess this one up, eh?). I cast a vote for the Northeast Corridor from Washington to New Yrok.
I cast a vote for the Northeast Corridor from Washington to New Yrok.
Nah, they all look like either Monica Lewinski or Chandra Levy. I prefer a Southern Belle anyday. Texas Chief and el Capitan for ever!
AEM7
OUCH! That's rough. Let the dead rest in peace, though. You need to ride the Regionals inside of the Express because you won't find as many politicians on the Regional.
Although I have a friend of mine from the South at school...I FEEL YOU :)
You need to ride the Regionals inside of the Express because you won't find as many politicians on the Regional.
I ride only NEDirects. I won't touch the Acela Express with a bargepole! Still, the two times I rode NEDirects out of Washington, everyone on the train was business-looking were all overdressed and all had excessively fashionable makeup. People in Washington is just too phoney. I've only been to Washington twice, liked it the first time but only because I was accompanied by an Irish Bostonian; the second time I was there for a conference, it was a rough town. People are very cold, except the working class from Virginia -- they are not bad, but they only ride the VRE.
Although I have a friend of mine from the South at school...I FEEL YOU
Where you at school?
AEM7
I am the guilty party with the gobbledegook 300,000th post. 'Tis what happens when you mix drinks.
David Pirmann did not change the stated rules on the website, but he did mention the acceptability of other railroad topics in his posts. Just as Supreme Court decisions interpret and sometimes extend the coverage of posted laws, David's posts are part of the official word, not just the rules at the top of the opening Subtalk screen.
If you talk about PASSENGER VOLUMES, there's a different story there...
A lot of Tokyo's stations are pretty crowded with people, and of course some of my favourite stations in Hong Kong too....
- Kowloon Tong: A popular transfer point between commuters from Sheung Shui, Tai Po and Sha Tin to transfer from East Rail to the Kwun Tong Line into the city
- Mong Kok and Prince Edward: Transfers between the Tsuen Wan Line and the Kwun Tong Line...it's so busy the MTR has installed platform screen doors at those two stations FIRST.
- Central-Hong Kong: The terminal of the Tung Chung Line (at Hong Kong), the Tsuen Wan Line (at Central), a stop on the Island Line (at Central), and the in-city base of the world-famous Airport Express train (at Hong Kong.)
- Admiralty: The popular transfer point for Tsuen Wan Line commuters to transfer to the Island Line towards the eastern end of the Island towards Chai Wan...legends have it that people have lost shoes in the mad rush across the curved gap.
- Yau Tong and Tiu Keng Leng: The two newest stations on the system. The new Tseung Kwan O Line coming from both Po Lam and North Point will intersect with the Kwun Tong Line towards Yau Ma Tei and Tiu Keng Leng. Soon to be my two favorite stations...and you got to love the words Tiu Keng Leng, which translated into English means "Adjust (Tiu) View (Keng) Point (Leng)!"
- Tsim Sha Tsui: Not a transfer station, but a popular station nevertheless for tourists and shoppers into the south Kowloon tourist trap...er...mecca. This is the area that's filled with hotels and chic malls and European designer shops. Tres chic, I say.
For Tiu Keng Leng (former English name is "Rennie's Mill"), its original Chinese name is actually means the Hanging Point because there is where Mr Rennie hanged himself up as he business is failed. The Chinese name is then derived to the name used in nowadays.
Central-Hong Kong interchange is somehow like the interchange between ACE and other lines in Times Sqaure in New York. It's techinaclly 2 station, but we treat them as one because the name Hong Kong is too vague for both residents and tourists. It takes 5 minutes to just walk in the tunnel fore transferring from Tung Chung Line Platform at Hong Kong to Island Line Platform in Central. There is moving walks in the tunnels, but Hong Kong people are rather reluctzant to use such interchange because we are used to direct transfer within the same island platform.
Its not the bussiest station because few trains stop there. It might perhaps be the busiest interlocking. Penn Station is of course technically 4 seperate interlockings (A, KN, JO and C) , but since the creation of the PSCC you could argue it is one. PSCC also controls F interlocking in Queens and if you rounded everything all together is might be on the world's bussiest list with all the non-revenue moves and whatnot.
Here, a live departure board:
Clapham Jct.
When I pulled it up, it was 21.14 GMT and there were 25 trains between 21.14 and 21.44 -- that's about 50 trains per hour. This is not even peak hour. It's past 9 o'clock at night.
AEM7
Again this is a Sunady service. Check it out around at 12.00pm EST (your time) tomorrow. Should be interesting.
Simom
Swindon UK
I was wondering why it was blank, until I realized it's 3AM there. Dumbass...
I did the same looking at Bicester North (but this was about 1300 GMT). It turns out that day there were no trains on the section Princes' Risborough - Banbury because of the track redoubling between Bicester North and Aynho (Yay!!! More trains on my line!!!).
track redoubling
If you are adding one track alongside another, why is it necessary to shut down the single track?
AEM7
To finish connecting the tracks to eachother at either end. (Plus the single track had the typical inconsistency as to on which side of the ROW it was).
The really weird thing is where you get further into London and the bridges are all built wide enough to span four tracks, but only two have ever been there.
I just pulled it up and counted 99 trains departing between 12.46 and 13.45 today.
And that isn't even peak-hour service.
Mvh Tim
The live information you are looking at is for a Sunday service. Check it out on a weekday.
Simon
Swindon UK
In terms of subways, however, I can offer this (This was posted where I have a belief that it will not be seen and will be drowned out by mindless and pointless nitpicking on details...)
CENTRAL/HONG KONG STATIONS COMPLEX, Hong Kong:
- Tseun Wan Line (TWL): 128 to 200 second headways = 20-30 tph
- Island Line (ISL): 128 to 200 second headways = 20-30 tph
- Tung Chung Line (TCL): 4 minutes/train = 15 tph
- Airport Express (AEL): 10 minutes/train = 6 tph
- Off-peak: 20 (TWL) + 20 (ISL) + 15 (TCL) + 6 (AEL) = 61 tph
- Peak: 30 (TWL) + 30 (ISL) + 15 (TCL) + 6 (AEL) = 81 tph
Might not be a Clapham Junction, but it's comparable, ne?
-J!
Okay, wrong numbers, but still...
CENTRAL/HONG KONG STATIONS COMPLEX:
- Tsuen Wan Line (TWL): 120-300s/train = 12-30 tph
- Island Line (ISL): 128-300s/train = 12-30 tph
- Tung Chung Line (TCL): 4-10 min/train = 6-15 tph
- Airport Express (AEL): 10 min/train = 6 tph
- OFFPEAK (Middays, Evenings): 12 + 12 + 6 + 6 = 36 tph
- PEAK (AM/PM Rushes): 30 + 30 + 15 + 6 = 81 tph
Thanks for the info. Must go to Hong Kong one year, sooner not later.
Simon
Swindon UK
I think that Hong Kong Subways in fact do have the lowest operating headway anywhere in the world. The signalling system is designed for 72 second headways, they are only using 90 seconds at the moment -- rush hour trains run less than every 2 mins), but there is a plan to go down to 80 seconds. With an 80 second headway and 72 second minimum, if you get a delay you're in trouble until the end of the rush hour...
Clapham Jct is the world's busiest railroad/railway station, but it's nowhere near the busiest subway station.
AEM7
However, Hong Kong MTR (subway) seldom delay. And if they do, they must be a chaos!
There were once the signaling system is failed, and they are forced to use fixed block signaling, somebody got sufficated on the train and emergency buttons were pressed so frequently that they slowed down the ride. With the shortest distance allowed by the system is 18 metres (20 yards) between 2 trains, we can make the MTR as frequent as wew want.
Unfortunately, with the new Korean trains, the Kwun Tong Line has been chaos. The K-Train are even worse than the R-142s.
And with Yau Tong-Tiu Keng Leng diverson it's been even MORE chaos. A single-seat ride becomes an extra 4-minute stand at Yau Tong (and that's if you can actually get on board a train!!)
-J!
I think that Hong Kong Subways in fact do have the lowest operating headway anywhere in the world. The signalling system is designed for 72 second headways, they are only using 90 seconds at the moment
I think I can beat that. Lille (France) is designed for 60 second headways (as are Toulouse, Rennes and the "OrlyVal" in Paris) and run on 75 second headways in the rush hour.
The Lille Metro is not a subway.
I quote from Metropla.net: "Lille is synonymous for a new generation of metro systems, a kind of small profile light railway operated automatically..."
If you are counting light rail, Boston's Green Line operates with a 45 second headway in the rush hour between Boylston and Copley on a basically two-track right of way. Of course, Boston's system is not nearly the busiest light rail system.
AEM7
The Lille Metro is not a subway.
Yes it is. It is a completely different system from the Tramway in the same city. There is ATO, no on street running and the weight of the rail, width of cars, gauge etc don't make a hell of a lot of difference. It is more of a subway than either the Boston Green Line (the oldest SUBWAY in America) or the Newark City SUBWAY.
light railway
A phrase which means at least three different things:
1) a railway built under powers from the Light Railway Act (e.g. the Cleobury Mortimer and Ditton Priors Light Railway)
2) a trolley line (such as the Boston Green Line or Lille Tramway)
3) a railway where the weight of the rail is low (such as the Lille Métro, and the Sea Beach Express tracks in NYC)
The reason for the actual rail weight being low in Lille is because the rubber tyres take most of the load and the rails are just there as a fall-back and for switching.
The reason for the actual rail weight being low in Lille is because the rubber tyres take most of the load and the rails are just there as a fall-back and for switching.
If something has a rubber wheel, it's not even a railcar. Looks like this Lille is some f__ked up system that doesn't even qualify as a rail transit. Lille can forget it. Comparing Lille headways with a true subway rail transit headway isn't correct since the rubber wheels will allow much higher rates of braking -- a large factor in determining the possible headway.
AEM7
"If something has a rubber wheel, it's not even a railcar. Looks like this Lille is some f__ked up system that doesn't even qualify as a rail transit."
So Paris and Montreal don't have rail transit systems? Other than the rubber, they look very much like NYC or Boston subways to me.
So Paris and Montreal don't have rail transit systems?
I've never liked anything French. Now even less so.
I've seen the system map of the Paris Metro, that's pretty impressive, I'd call that a transit system (but if it's rubber wheeled, it's not a "rail" transit system). Montreal doesn't even have a trasnit system.
AEM7
I've seen the system map of the Paris Metro, that's pretty impressive, I'd call that a transit system (but if it's rubber wheeled, it's not a "rail" transit system).
The rubber wheels are not used at switches, traditional rails are and the rubber wheels are guided much like traditional rail wheels. It is a railway of a higher form of technology.
It is a railway of a higher form of technology
Whenever a technology is "new", everyone calls it a "higher form of technology". Unfortunately that is often incorrect. In space, where there is no gravity, a pencil writes a lot better than the higher form of technology, a fnarking Frog invention called the BIC. Different technologies should be used for different environments. I personally don't see how rubber wheeled technology would be appropriate anywhere other than on the highway. The highway is a "newer" form of technology than the railroad, sure. But if you want to run a rubber tyred vehicle, there's something out there called a "road" (and a vehicle called a "bus") that you can use. Indeed, this is most appropriate for low-density areas where the costs of steel rails cannot be justified.
AEM7
"I personally don't see how rubber wheeled technology would be appropriate anywhere other than on the highway."
- Faster braking allows more tph.
- Quieter (greater passenger comfort).
Offset, of course, by greater maintenance costs. But not inherently a stupid idea.
- Faster braking allows more tph.
- Quieter (greater passenger comfort).
I'd dispute point no.2, but anyway, that's not the issue here. If you think this is great, why not convert all subways to busways?
AEM7
"If you think this is great, why not convert all subways to busways?"
- Busways have lower capacity than subways.
- Rubber tire subways have higher mtc costs, which to my mind outweigh the benefits.
Note that I did NOT say rubber wheels were great, I just said they weren't inherently stupid. I merely disputed your contention that they were inappropriate other than on a highway. The Paris system moves lots of people and doesn't seem to be a disaster in any way.
The rubber tyres in Paris give amazing acceleration and short stopping distances. This gives very short headways for the five car trains that operate. The ride is best descirbed as unusual. They are also very quiet - may be suitable for New York's steel ells.
Simon
Swindon UK
I assume you mean by a busway a subway with rubber tyred trains, not a subway in which you run AEC Routemasters.
There are of course obvious advantages for busy subways to adopt this technology:
- faster acceleration
- faster braking
which allow:
- shorter journey times
- shorter headways
which allow:
- shorter dwell times
So in short, trains running at way above 30tph which get you where you want to go quicker.
Sounds a good idea, doesn't it? Why not do this to all lines?
That was the question RATP (the Paris transit agency) asked themselves. Indeed they managed to convert the very busy lines 1 and 4. However, there were two main obstacles:
- cost of converting existing infrastructure was rather high
- maintaining existing service whilst conversion took place
- the whole line has to be converted before one rubber tyred train can run
So they resolved that all new builds would be rubber tyred, but to leave the rest of the lines as is (unless they got way too busy). An exception was made for line 6, which was converted to rubber tyred operations for quite different reasons. Anyone who knows Paris will know that line 6 for the most part is on an El. Noise concerns were the reason for this conversion.
If I could name one line which IMHO would benefit from this technology more than any other on earth, it would have to be the Flushing IRT. This is ridiculously busy (so a technological improvement would be useful in practical terms) and for the large part elevated (so in environmental terms as well).
I don't get the noise aspect of this.
The Montréal Métro is IME considerably louder than the Washington Metro.
If the Flushing IRT is too noisy, converting it to rubber-tired operation is not the solution. Upgrading it to modern steel-wheeled equipment and infrastructure would be at least as effective and much less costly.
Mvh Tim
If the Flushing IRT is too noisy, converting it to rubber-tired operation is not the solution. Upgrading it to modern steel-wheeled equipment and infrastructure would be at least as effective and much less costly.
Actually, rubber tyres are less noisy, that is true. The problem is that it is shite, and it isn't a train. Upgrading an el to reduce noise would require a total rebuild, changing the steel underdeck to a concrete one. (Basically, instead of the noise being transmitted downwards, it hits the sidewalls and gets bounced up so those in the car hears it instead of those living below and beside).
The solution to noisy el's is to tell the residents to shut up, and tell them that if they complain, we will take the el away. Just ask those people on 2nd Ave.
I assume you mean by a busway a subway with rubber tyred trains,
No, I mean a BUSWAY like they have in Pittsburgh.
There are of course obvious advantages for busy subways to adopt this technology:
- faster acceleration
- faster braking
- less comfortable ride
- more falling over
- feels like a bus
So in short, trains running at way above 30tph which get you where you want to go quicker.
If the choice is between running six car trains at 15tph or three car trains at 30tph, which would you choose? Of course you would choose three car trains at 30tph, right? That's because you have not been an operator or dispatcher. You think like the customer and you think that a train every 2 minutes is better than a train every 4 minutes. In fact if the ITS system telling you how long it is until the next train did not exist, very few people actually notice the difference between a 2-minute headway and a 4-minute headway. After waiting for a train for 3-minutes, if you ask someone "how long have you been here?", they usually tell you "a couple minutes". Talk to an operator, they will tell you how much less likely to have a f__k up with 15tph than with 30tph. Unless there are some infrastructure constraint (e.g. platform length), there's no real reason to have headways less than about every 4 mins.
AEM7
Unless there are some infrastructure constraint (e.g. platform length), there's no real reason to have headways less than about every 4 mins.
Boy, you really don't know what you're talking about at all. The Flushing line runs 11-car trains (except during the summer) at close to 30 tph, and they're crowded. Yes, I'm afraid platform length is an infrastructure constraint -- the platforms aren't 1122 feet long. I also question whether the C/R's can keep an eye on 33 doors over 11 cars in each direction as the train is pulling out.
Other lines have similar operating characteristics. The East Side IRT has close to 30 tph of 510-foot trains on each of four tracks. The Queens Boulevard IND has 30 tph of 600-foot trains on its express tracks.
The Flushing line runs 11-car trains (except during the summer) at close to 30 tph, and they're crowded...
Time to do one of two things:
(1) Build more lines
(2) Price up so that demand is suppressed.
AEM7
I like oprion 1 better.......
The Flushing line runs 11-car trains (except during the summer) at close to 30 tph
Exactly, so the way forward is rubber tyres and (maybe) ATO. The reduction in noise pollution is a nice side effect, but I'd say the main thing would be to run more trains of the same size.
The other way would be to build a second Subway Line to Flushing. I think rubber tyres sounds an easier alternative than that.
Raising fares to force people off the Subway is regressive and stupid - it makes the City's congestion problem worse and will only work in the short run. Raising fares to fund improvements may be a good idea - if either the unions or the bosses don't get their hands on the money instead.
Oh yes, and, AEM7, I appreciate that not many people would notice the difference in waiting time once you have more than 12tph, but they sure would notice the difference in crowding. 15tph would be suicide on the Flushing Line platforms, 27tph is still overcrowded; what's actually needed is about 40tph.
I appreciate not everyone likes the idea of running trains on rubber, but in certain cases, it is a very good idea.
Please explain how running trains on rubber tires/tyres as opposed to the present steel wheels can result in more trains being operated in the peak hour. This claim was made before, a few weeks ago, on this board, and I challenged it but never received a response.
David
Higher braking rates = operating trains at same maximum speeds closer together = higher vehicle flow rates
Assumption: the signalling system can handle continuous (and not discrete) block lengths (i.e. moving block signalling)
AEM7
Fine. Now tell me how rubber tires/tyres enter into the equation. What was described by "AEM7" is CBTC, which does not in any way require rubber tires/tyres to work.
David
That can be an effect of CBTC, but it is a more characteristic effect of rubber. Rubber has more grip than steel, hence better acceleration and retardation. If simple physics like that really bothers you, I sugest you read "Paris Metro Handbook" by B. Hardy published by Capital Transport Publishing of 38, Long Elmes, Harrow Weald, Middlesex, UK.
NYCT's present signal system (before recent modifications, at least) is designed to handle 40 trains per hour per track. Because of dwell time considerations, no more than 36 have ever been scheduled, and there are questions as to whether that throughput was ever sustained on a regular basis. Currently, NYCT schedules no more than 30 trains per hour on any given section of track. This is all with steel wheels on steel rails. There are some places where more service can be operated than is currently scheduled, but isn't because of a lack of cars (discounting, of course, places that have the capacity but not the need) or because dwell time has limited throughput and must be reduced before an attempt can be made to increase service (on the Lexington Avenue Express, service is being increased slowly as efforts to reduce dwell time take hold).
Is what's being proposed here that NYCT operate more than 40 TPH on any section of track? 30 or even slightly more can be operated, and indeed historically HAS been operated, with traditional steel-on-steel and electromechanical(/pneumatic?) signals. Additionally, increasing the braking rate is something that NYCT could do NOW if it so desired and does not require any change in the braking technologies currently in use or in wheel or track design.
David
I understand that the faster acceleration and braking (resulting in higher tph) were what prompted the RATP to begin converting lines to rubber-tired operation back in the 1950s (wasn't it?).
However, it should also not be forgotten that the acceleration and braking of steel-wheel-on-steel-rail systems is deliberately designed not to be higher than what human passengers, particularly those who are standing, can tolerate. Steel-wheel-on-steel-rail technology is capable of better (=faster) acceleration and braking than what is currently the norm, but that is not feasible for passenger safety reasons. Consequently, using rubber tires to achieve better acceleration and braking is also not feasible.
Mvh Tim
Really? Try riding SEPTA. Especially the N5s.
Are you telling me that an R62A can brake at 2.5ms^-2 and acellerate at 1.4ms^-2? If so, I am impressed.
"Are you telling me that an R62A can brake at 2.5ms^-2 and acellerate at 1.4ms^-2? If so, I am impressed."
Not sure what post your're responding to, but obviously it meant 2.5 and 1.4 miles per hour per second, not miles per second per second.
2 miles per second per second is 300 times the force of gravity.
He's British. He's using evil metric units.
2 mph per second is pretty lame acceleration.
2 miles per second per second is ridiculous.
2.5 m/s/s (meters per second per second) is about 5.6 mph per second. (If I have done the conversion right)
Maximum Service Brake on British Rail is 9%g = 0.88 m/s/s = 1.98 mph/sec
2.5 m/s/s would be extremely uncomfortable.
Aeroplanes taking off is about 25%g = 2.45 m/s/s, which is why people must be strapped in. His rubber-wheeled trains would feel like a plane.
AEM7
I did not quote a braking rate in the post being answered. However, the service braking rate is 3.0 miles per hour per second, and the emergency braking rate is 3.2 miles per hour per second.
David
Interesting....never saw numbers before. When we service brake in the static condition, we are given numbers and limits in PSI for brake cylinder pressure. Redbird Tech: 0 or something for full release, 6 to 10 PSI for snow brake, 80 PSI for max. 15 PSI is the 'window' for dynamic braking. Not a clue to speed but the dynamic braking window is about 10 mph/100 amperes of generated current. CI peter
"Please explain how running trains on rubber tires/tyres as opposed to the present steel wheels can result in more trains being operated in the peak hour."
1. Trains with rubber tires can break and accelerate faster because the coefficient of friction of rubber on concrete is higher than steel on steel.
2. Objects that accelerate and break faster can safely be spaced more closely together than objects that accelerate and break more slowly. Consider at the extreme, automobiles can be spaced much more closely than trains. Even MBTA trolleys can be spaced much more closely than subways, pretty much tailgating each other at Park Street.
3. The closer spacing, at comparable speeds, allows for a lower time interval between trains.
1. Subway cars with steel wheels can have higher braking rates than NYCT's (3.2 mphps in full service) do.
2. As in my answer to "AEM7," this describes what NYCT's objectives are with CBTC (Communication-Based Train Control). Again, it doesn't require rubber tires/tyres. MBTA trolleys don't operate under CBTC, by the way...moreover, to my knowledge, they don't have ANY means of stopping the train other than the Train Operator/Motorman activating the brakes.
3. Agreed -- the closer together trains can safely be spaced, the higher the potential capacity of the line. But, once again, all of this can be accomplished with steel-on-steel, and IS accomplished at several transit systems.
David
1. Subway cars with steel wheels can have higher braking rates than NYCT's (3.2 mphps in full service) do.
But, no matter what the steel wheels do, the rubber wheeled cars will always have higher braking rates, hence lower potential headway (assuming CBTC).
However, I dispute that the rubber wheels are the solution. With the kind of braking rates that are currently in use on NYCTA, it's already tough to stand up without holding onto something. Making the acceleration any sharper would mean that the subway isn't all that much better than buses in terms of comfort.
AEM7
Then think of what rubber plus proper ATO can do (none of this lousy CBTC).
Fourty tonnes of dead weight supported by rubber rimmed wheels on steel tracks? These guys never went undercar to measure wheel diameter or flange thickness!!!! From the American Commander of forces defending the besieged town of Bastogne to the German Commander of assaulting forces: 'NUTS.'
If you don't believe it's possible, go to Paris and ride one of lines 1, 4, 6, 11 and 14 - or even better all of them.
ATO and CBTC are independent items that can, but do not have to, work together. My contention is that all of the supposed benefits of rubber as regards the amount of service that can be provided, can be attained without changing to "pneu" technology.
David
My contention is that steel on steel has an upper limit in the range of 36-40tph for heavy rail systems regardless of ATO, CBTC, TPWS or any other system like that.
So does rubber wheels on rubber wheels, if the thing is going to feel like a train at all.
The French run a higher levels of cant deficiency (or imbalance to North Americans) than anybody else on their rails. Their trains are also the most uncomfortable and car-like.
The French allows some 185mm of cant deficiency for their non-tilting trains. The Acela only runs at an FRA authorized maximum of 190mm (7.5 inches) cant deficiency. The British Rail "exceptional" standard is 165mm. Standard North American standard is 115mm.
The French are f__ing nuts.
AEM7
And what's the point here? The maximum amount of service NYCT currently operates isn't anywhere near the upper limit "British James" theorizes for steel-on-steel (not to say that he's wrong).
Let's run the system according to the limits of its capabilities, with or without the latest whiz-bang technological enhancements. If that isn't enough, THEN consider changing the roadbed and wheels.
David
David is correct on #2. MBTA Green Line trolleys run on a fixed block system, but do NOT have trip stops. It is the operator's responsiblity to stop the car/train.
While AEM7 is correct that the trolleys do "tailgate" at Park Street and other places within the subway, trolleys entering stations that have a preceding trolley platformed will encounter a yellow over yellow signal at the entrance to the station, which means:
RULE 58(C)(1): Double Yellow -- COME TO A COMPLETE STOP. Then preceed at restricted speed. (Proceed, prepared to stop short of a car, train, or other obstruction and watch for broken rail or switch not properly lined, not exceeding TEN (10) MILES PER HOUR) to appropriate berth.)
Not necessarily!
The Kinkisharyo Millennium Trains on the KCRC East Rail have undercar curtains that cover up the sides of the wheel mechanisms. These curtains have significantly reduced noise by about 25%, and when they pull up to a station you can tell it's a Kinkisharyo Millennium. They're THAT much more quiet than the Alstom EMUs.
Ah, for the love of the Sheung Shui-bound Kinkisharyo Millennium...*sigh*
-J!
Where does the noise go? If it simply goes up into the cars, then I'm not sure I consider that a good solution -- it certainly isn't likely to attract patrons to public transit, not that this tends to be a problem in Hong Kong, from what I gather. :-)
Mvh Tim
The rubber tyred lines also have steel rails as well and the rubber tyred trains also have steel wheels (in case of a blowout). The system works very well, is fast and very efficient. There are some lessons to be learned.
Simon
Swindon UK
To be fair, Paris is only partially run by rubber wheeled trains.
Lines 1, 4 and 6 were upgraded for rubber wheeled operation
Lines 11 and 14 were built for rubber wheeled operation
Lines 2, 3, 3bis, 5, 7, 7bis, 8, 9, 10, 12 and 13 have never been upgraded
Line 14 has the added benefit of ATO.
Just a little correction.
Line 11 was also converted from regular steel rail service.
In fact, it was the first regular service line to be.
Most lines have ATO, albeit with human operators.
Line 14 is completely automatic with no human crew on board.
You're completely right - it was the one line I didn't look up because I knew it was built later than all except parts of 13 and all of 14 - unfortunately it was still 21 years too early!
If something has a rubber wheel, it's not even a railcar. Looks like this Lille is some f__ked up system that doesn't even qualify as a rail transit. Lille can forget it. Comparing Lille headways with a true subway rail transit headway isn't correct since the rubber wheels will allow much higher rates of braking -- a large factor in determining the possible headway.
Yeh, well, I like this fucked up system with it's fast acceleration and braking. Seeing as it's pretty much standard on all new builds in France (including in Paris), I think it qualifies if not out-qualifies the traditional stuff we have in London and New York. It looks like progress to me.
It looks like progress to me.
Do you have the latest Windows XP operating system? Do you think that's progress over the old-school Mac OS?
AEM7
Do you have the latest Windows XP operating system?
Yes. So I installed Linux.
In terms of the interface, yes.
I hate the old MacOS, with that stupid menu to switch programs. Windows 95 and up is better.
Now compare Windows before 95 with the Mac OS and OS X with Windows and it's a different story.
Dude, if you say Lille is a metro, then I can say Vancouver's Skytrain is a metro too, when it's supposed to be an ALRV.
-J!
I've never been to Vancouver, but it looks from metropla.net like it's a metro not a tramway.
Looks liek Metropla.net's reporting is screwed. Is Docklands Light Rail a metro too?
AEM7
I believe the Beckton branch has some on street running.
Not to my knowledge. It has third rail.
Simon
Swindon UK
The Beckton line doesn't have on-street running. It runs in an open cut down the central reservation (median strip in American) of a highway, and the stations are below street level at the roundabouts (traffic circles in American), so if you just look at a map it may seem as if it runs in the street. The highway in question, by the way, runs almost exactly on the alignment of the long-dead Gallions branch line. (The equally long-dead Beckton branch actually followed a different alignment a bit further north.)
However, IIRC some early plans for the Docklands LR envisaged running it in the street to Mile End underground station (District and Central lines), for connection to the rest of London. In the end, it was decided to run it to Tower Gateway instead, using the viaducts of the old London and Blackwall railway. And later the tunnel section to Bank station was added, for better connection with the tube network. Presumably the Mile End idea pre-dated the decision to make the system third-rail. The Docklands LR is also driverless, of course, which would make on-street running interesting (8-) !
Fytton.
didnt the Flushing line have 90 sec headways years ago....?
Nope...100 second headways (36 TPH). I've got several timetables from the 1960s and 1970s that show it. However, there is a question as to whether the scheduled throughput was actually achieved.
David
Heck, I just counted 74 tph in the peak for T-Centralen in Stockholm:
Division 1 (green lines): 30 tph
Division 2 (red lines): 24 tph
Division 3 (blue lines): 20 tph
These are schedule numbers; IME, the new signalling system on Division 1 does not permit 30 tph in practice. (The old signalling system did.)
Mvh Tim
I thought Shinjuku station in Tokyo is the busiest in the world, but IIRC that claim is based on passenger counts rather than the number of train movements. Not sure what the train frequency is through there, and how it's broken down by subway vs. railroad.
Ive seen pictures on the TV with station staff pushing people onto trains. This must help with the passenger numbers:)
Simon
Swindon UK
I couldn't get tph numbers but many web sites quote Shinjuku as being the busiest train station in the World. One site said 3 million passengers per day but I'm not sure if it includes all the systems.
Japan Railway East runs 5 commuter lines and one long distance line and airport express. There are three subway lines and three private lines have their Tokyo terminal there.
People-pushers are becoming less common these days, but I'm sure Shinjuku still needs them on the Chuo line inbound platform during the morning rush.
OK I found some figures from fiscal year 1999. Figures are rounded to the thousand and show only people entering the station and exclude transfers within the same company.(Source: Tokyo Metropolitan Gov.)
Japan Railway East: 276,978,000
Odakyu: 93,272,000
Seibu: 38,049,000
Keio: 124,039,000
Eidan Subway Marunouchi line: 49,055,000
Municipal Subway Shinjuku line: 41,170,000
Municipal Subway Oedo line: 7,591,000
Couldn't find the number of trains.
In any case that's a LOT of people.
A lot of systems in Asia have superconductors. Tokyo and Hong Kong, especially. I know stations such as Admiralty, Wan Chai, Causeway Bay, Mong Kok and even Yau Tong on its first operating day had superconductors on duty to push people from Kwun Tong Line trains aboard Tseung Kwan O Line trains toward North Point.
Hmm.
Are we conunting trains in both directions? If you are at a subway station with 20 tph, then 40 tph pass through (twenty each way). Maybe JLeung should double his Hong Kong figures?? I think the Clapham Jct example is counting both ways (I just looked at the live departure board and 50 trains in total -- both directions -- are listed in half an hour). Secondly, I think the oft-quoted tag that it is the busiest RAILWAY station in the world is not including subways. Even in London itself, Kings Cross St Pancras tube station has three deep tube lines each about 20 tph each way -- that's 120 tph -- plus the sub-surface station with probably nearer 30 tph each way -- total getting on for 180 tph in the peak. Less in the off-peak, and no night service, but probably nearly 3000 trains per day.
I was never claiming that Clapham Junction was the busiest (I think I used the term "regarded by some" or something like that in my post). As many have pointed out it depends which criteria you use. I had hoped that my post would have encouraged folks to look at the live departure boards which also show how many and by how much the trains are running late. BTW this information is also available for most British stations on the same site. Incidentally Clapham Junction serves just a small part of the very extensive and complex London Suburban rail system (one of the busiest in the world, perhaps the busiest:) and one which is great fun and very easy to explore with an all zone travel card.
Simon
Swindon UK
Incidentally Clapham Junction serves just a small part of the very extensive and complex London Suburban rail system
Surely extensive and very complex... there are large parts of it - especially South of the Thames - which I simply don't understand at all.
Its a wilderness. People have been known to disappear for days:)
Simon
Swindon UK
Even looking at an old map to see which lines were South Eastern & Chatham, London Brighton & South Coast, and London & South Western doesn't make it any clearer - they seem to be pretty much random even in 1923. For instance - why did the SE&C have two stations in Catford? And why did they build a spur from Grove Park to Bromley North when Bromley South is SE&C too? And why did the LB&SC build two Croydon stations? I suppose the short answer to all of these questions is that the Southern Region has never made any sense.
Here is a question. What does Acton have that Croydon does not ?
No prizes :)
Simon
Swindon
A main line? :P
Nope. Give in ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Go on - I bet it's really obvious...
North, Town and Central?
Yes, than answer is North.
Simon
Swindon UK
The answer is North.
East Acton, West Acton, North Acton, South Acton.
There is no North Croydon.
You can have a tee shirt anyway :)
Simon
Swindon UK
Nice one. That is an oddity that hadn't struck me.
I still like my "Main Line" answer, but that probably reflects my opinion of the Southern Region more than anything else!
If you look at
http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/radiocode.html
you'll find a list of radio codes - 12-1 through 12-3 and 12-5 through 12-12. Why isn't there a 12-4?
Too similar to 10-4
12-4 is supposed to be the same as 10-4,i.e. "acknowledged".
Anyone have any false buzzers on a 68?
Id you are on a a1-b-b-a1 + a2-b-b-a2 consist and the IC worked between both a1's would it be a slam dunk that a2 could hear a1?
I quess the question is where are the most common problems on IC in couplers, trainline or mike/speaker.
I have been getting reports from my T/O's of false buzzers on the R62A Singles. They normally happen around 125 Street - Bway.
Are you serious or am I missing something?
No, I've never gotten a false buzzer on a 68/68A, and no, not a slam dunk for your IC question, either. The IC's never worked particularly well on these cars, and I've been working them since they were new.
thanks
"Id you are on a a1-b-b-a1 + a2-b-b-a2 consist and the IC worked between both a1's would it be a slam dunk that a2 could hear a1?"
I'd try to answer your question if you'd be so kind as to clarify what you are asking.
I think he's asking whether an intercom system that's been verified to work between the first and fourth cars of an 8-car R-68 consist (a1/a1 in his nomenclature) should reasonably be expected to work between the first and FIFTH cars (a1/a2).
David
You sir are correct- Ed McMann
Ed McMahon Karnac will put a hex on me for that.
If that's what he's asking then the answer would have to be a qualified maybe. If the communications units in the second link are functioning as intended and if the electric portion(s) of the coupler(s)are clean, then you'd have to assume that the intercome may work. As has been discussed here many times, there is a grounding problem in the in-car circuits that causes the problems. This grounding problem will sometimes kill the t/line functions including IC.
>>>This grounding problem will sometimes kill the t/line functions including IC. <<<
Yikes, you could lose partial train line like just the IC and the PA and other stuff would still be good? Would this ever be an intermittent problem cutting in and out over a trip?
Door control lines and indication have been known to be lost like that here and there as well - especially on a curve where the pins are a bit loose. So it would logically follow that your scenario could happen as well. I'm no car inspector, but I've seen that myself.
Well in this case it just seemed too easy that the IC was working at certain times and not others (and always when helpful to that persons story) but the train was fine otherwise.
But if that is possible it, it is what it is.
*DO* bear in mind that I'm not a qualified "expoit" here - but I *am* aware from my own experience that electrical portion pins can go intermittent on you if their travel is restricted or the contact ends are a bit crusty. I think Train Dude also acknowledged that things can go wrong from time to time. For some reason, an intermittent will get worse on a curve, possibly due to additional flexing. I've had indication problems on 32's thirty years ago on a curved platform that didn't happen anywhere else on the trip. I've heard crackling in the PA as well from time to time.
So certainly, there's a "reasonable doubt" at play here. But if I was in the "modern TA" and I had doubts that my partner heard me say something signficant I and I didn't receive an ACK, I sure would have gotten on the radio and asked "did you hear me?" whether or not I had doubts about the equipment. If it was important, I'd want to be SURE I was heard even if I had to walk the train (as it was back in my day, the radios weren't worth a warm pail of spit and most equipment didn't have PA or IC so a walk was a way of life) ...
All straight track, all in the span of 2 minutes.
There are two thoughts on G2's say everything or say as little as possible. Both have advantages if done right.
A friend of mine had a problem, a put in would not charge right. The B2 had tripped BUT it was in position just loose so if you looked at it it seemed fine, it took the RCI quite awhile to figure that out. The Supt was LIVID at an ABD so the T/O had to write a bullet proof G2 outlining all the steps he took in preparing the train. If he had not written about testing the c/r horn and EBV they likely would have nailed him as the RCI did not want to say it took him a half hour to figure it out. That RCI claimed it was in the tripped position and the T/O told him he had checked already so he (the RCI) never rechecked it until after the ABD.
Geez ... sad statement on how things go these days. Yeah, if you didn't drop and kick the breakers, you'd get yelled at by the RCI's, but they'd write up their time, write in a bogus failure and be on their way merrily earning their nut. In the old cars, wasn't unusual for breakers on the panel to "go funny" where they'd trip but the handle didn't drop. Some would be obvious, partially down but not all the way, others would sit there smelling funny from all the accumulated steel dust. But we didn't have "I'll write you up for this" unless you were stupid AND abusive to your coworker with the hammer.
Now that you've put a little bit of detail behind it that wasn't there before, I would have looked at it as a "wash" ... sometimes problems are funky. Not to side one way or the other, not my way, but a (ahem) "T/O" should not be an electrical genius. Their job is to try to fix the OBVIOUS and go through the handbook of rote procedures. If they do what the book says to look for and no go, then it's time to call in the ball pein squad. If the ball pein squad came in, with the required knowledge and didn't REcheck the breakers (despite the urgings of someone who is not in a position to "tear it down" in their own two hands like we did as best we could in my day) then if I *had* to choose sides here, I'd charge the car inspector since breakers are equivalent to "is the plug out of the wall and that's why your TV don't work?" ... but in the end, I find this whole thing silly myself.
I'd want to bottom line it as "did the train eventually MOVE?" Bravo, it doesn't have to be torched or towed. Sounds like car equipment is a little defensive if CI's and RCI's feel the need to cover their butt. Before I end this message though, I am FEELING my way through this devoid of a lot of info that none of us needs to know publicly, but it's a DAMNED shame that something like this even became an ISSUE in the first place.
Some of the RCI's are geniuses and a blessed few are so bad I could do better job. I am not sure if they don't care or passed the test on seniority points. The new thing is RCI's that carry no equipment not even an R9 key. I thought the ones that just carried tape were bad.
I know there is only so much you can do in the field my kit would be:
Three rolls of tape (electric, silver and white), keys, reverser, small mallet, speed handle, the tool you use to open certain panels and maybe a custom multitool.
You would have loved the guys in my time. Either they had a small doctor's bag, a small tool chest or they carried their warez on their belt. But they had all that, knife, had stashed away parts and pieces in towers, equipment closets, anyplace they tended to hang out. There was this one guy who lived at Columbus circle who could change out a breaker in five minutes and CARRIED them with him! All that was required was a pair of paddles and you got rebuilt. Rumor at the time was that there was one guy on the Sea Beach who carried a PIPE THREADER with him. I don't WANT to know why. :)
Sadly, been thirty years away for me - I don't know how easily repaired cars are these days. But they had every tool you'd need to cut out pretty much anything plus an extra pressure indicator, spare relays and breakers, ohmmeter and voltmeter (or lacking that, a 50 volt bulb with clipleads) to troubleshoot your stands. If the RCI couldn't get you going back in my days (Train Dude remembers the old school I'm sure, he was one of them) then it was time to roll a diesel. Heh. But seriously, RCI's were not to be toyed with. They'd make any pile of crap roll unless you lost a wheel.
I wonder if they have a certain tool set that qualifies for fitness for duty.
I was carrying mail on the way back from lunch and someone blew a gasket that I was not carrying my sign changer. The flip side is I had a putin that was fresh from the barn for periodic and RCI preinspected that I had to bang in two doors that kept trying to cycle themselves. The YD who has the SOH of a lemon was cracking up.
The small tool bag is the standard for most RCI's. I get to talk to the good RCI's but when I have a problem I get Bozo. One guy at a terminal runs out of the office when you pick up the defect sheet, he replaced the guy that used to sleep 5 hours a shift.
Sign changer? What's THAT? Here we go again with "grampa speaks" ... heh ... you had HAND CRANKS when you dropped the hatch, and hand cranks for the signage. OK, on the newer cars, you had to carry a bigass "Magnavox tool" to turn the inverse phillips handles on the 32's and such ... but "sign changer tool?" Quelle BIZARRE! :)
And yeah, I've seen the "modern signs" ... Makita and Black and Decker got a cure for THAT sheet. Cycling doors ... another novelty. Either they'd close or they'd jam TIGHT in my days. I got MOOSE-cular trying to push them back after opening that panels, find whatever fell into the track and close up. Then again, we'd have arms that would lose a cotter pin, valves that would jam (or worse VENT) and that was pretty much it. Close the valve, flip the tab, close de box and the indication fairy would smile. Especially if you did a FONZIE on the microswitch. :)
>Makita and Black and Decker got a cure for THAT
So does the TA , time in the street. They tear some plastic that is in there.
Heh. I've SEEN folks at Coney do that. Whoops. :)
By the way - on the "electric section quiz" ... what I was describing was some phenomenons I knew that were the result of "mystery meat" or intermittents ... sometimes oxidized pin ends on the electricals would occur on straightaways as well. Sometimes a pin can retract and if there's oxidization, the spring may not push it all the way back out AFTER a curve ... so what I'm saying is that "electrical intermittents" are a tekkie's WORST nightmare because they happen when they FEEL like it and often when you check, the pookah has vanished and all tests well with an "ohs-eater" (ohmmeter) when it gets back to the yard. Ultimately, what I'm saying is "anything's possible." Given the additional details though, THAT wouldn't be the T/O's fault in my book either. And having worked with electricals and electronics for the better part of my life, I know what a pain in the BUTT "intermittents" can be because you can only catch them WHILE they're misbehaving ... sometimes it's sanest to wait for a complete failure to catch the electrical "culprit."
For everyone else who bothered to read this, I recall in school car that one of the "new tech trains" that arrived in the early 70's (late 60's but I didn't get to run one outside of school car) was either the 44's or the 46's where they had this *INSANE* electrical portion that was on the SIDES of the coupler rather than under it. They were intermittent from day one and I *think* I heard that they were quickly "fixed" after all the door and PA problems they caused. Was it the 44's or the 46's that were known as the "now you have it, now you don't" cars?
Wasn't that the P-wire circuit?
The R-44s and R-46s had the same Ohio Brass couplers with side electric portions.
All I know is it failed miserably, even when them puppies was NEW. But I thought somehow it was one or the other. If it was both, doubly amusing. :)
David said it much better than I did.
As you are supervision it is only fair to say that this actually might be used as supporting evidence in a 'he said, she said' discipline case. So let me know if you are on or off record.
A phantom buzzer does not seem to be a problem of 68's
What is the e-mail address that you found this MBTA 2020 Vision Map.
I can't seem to find it on the mbta webpage.
That's because he made it up.
If so, can you put it up on subtalk & what would be the e-mail address for this.
If anyone has or knows the webpage on the 1975 Mass Transit Study for PATCO into Gloucester County, please post it.
Also, if anyone has a map with stations on the proposed 2 alignments, please post that as well.
I have the map and the full 1975 study. I can scan a portion of the map. Let me know how to post it.
Can you can the map the same way as AEM7 did with his MBTA 2020 Vision Map.
I could not find the image from AEM7. Please try the link, I hope it works. Let me know if you want anything more from the map.
http://community.webshots.com/album/46018446lHrtrt
The information you gave me couldn't find me the 1975 Mass Transit Study Map for PATCO.
Would it be possible to scan the map on subtalk.
OY VEY! Get the person's e-mail address, send them $20 through PayPal, and let them copy the whole thing and mail it to you. It would save you both time.
Wow! Great map! I have a couple of questions:
- Why are most of the stations just outside towns when the line passes through them?
- On the first map, what's the proposed line going off through Westfield Avenue, Crescent ... etc?
The PRSL route, I believe, had proposed stations in locations that would allow for ample parking. The Route 55 route was following a highway alignment that was constructed ten years later (the dotted line). The proposed line going off to Westfield Avenue and Crescent Boulevard was the proposed Mount Laurel route. I did not scan that portion since the route to Glassboro was the route that someone asked about.
Given the size of the route and two additional extensions, it would seem like an incredible bottleneck at the Philadelphia end of the line. They should have investigated a tunnel (as was proposed in the 1950’s).
The PRSL route, I believe, had proposed stations in locations that would allow for ample parking
Brilliant. Force people to drive to the stations. Not my idea of a railway, but hey...
The proposed line going off to Westfield Avenue and Crescent Boulevard was the proposed Mount Laurel route
What were the rest of the stations to be on that route?
They should have investigated a tunnel (as was proposed in the 1950’s).
A loop might be nice...
Several events are crowding the calender for September and October. There is the D-Type fantrip on Sep 22 and the "Autumn in New York" weekend at Branford on Sept 28-29. We also have the impending return on Sea Beach Fred and Steve 8 Avenue Exp.
Does anyone know when NJT plans to hold their "Try Transit" festival at Hoboken? Its usually in late Sept or early Oct. I have seacrded both the NJT and Hoboken websites but could not find any further info.
Thanks, Larry,RedbirdR33
I saw on another message board that it will be Sunday September 29. This was a naked statement laking any reference.
I saw on another message board that it will be Sunday September 29. This was a naked statement laking any reference.
I should add that I checked various websites without finding any info on this year's Try Transit (Hoboken) Festival. Sites checked include:
NJT
URHS
Michael Steinberg's "Hoboken Terminal"
It's definitely the 29th.
See railroad.net:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/messages.asp?TopicID=1539
http://www.railroad.net/forums/messages.asp?TopicID=213
Here is also some news as to when the CNJ festival is in OCTOBER, 2002:
http://www.cnjfestival.com/index.htm
thanks! That place is really cool.
I added a few things:
Re: The Blue Line extension to Lynn -- Does it REALLY have a chance of getting built? I thought that Blue Line ridership is really low anyway, and the Blue/Red connector at Charles, the Green Line extension to North Cambridge, and the "Urban Ring" were much more important priorities.
AEM7
D line to Riverside should be green.
Question to AEM7 the Blus/Red Line link how are you going to fit the 70ft redline cars in the East Boston tunnel and how are the blue line cars goint to reach the red line platforms? Steve
Blus/Red Line link how are you going to fit the 70ft redline cars in the East Boston tunnel and how are the blue line cars goint to reach the red line platforms?
With lots of money! You can either widen the tunnel which isn't *that* hard, or you could build a special blue/red line fleet which has automatic extenders.
AEM7
Thank you for clearing that up. The MBTA has lots of money to spend friviously. LOL
They just spent $1 billion on the Silver Line. Who says they have no money? They could have built the Blue Line Extension to Lynn 3 times over with that $.
AEM7
They've been in debt for quite sometime, so I dunno how they do it. They still have to fork over the 2nd half of the payments for Breda's cars, if they ever stop being lemons. -Nick
(The real reason is that the Feds paid for the transit tunnel with highway $ -- there was a lot of political bickering over that, and the Silver Line being someone's pet scheme, got the $. But at least they got the damn thing built.)
AEM7
Or how about building a second parallel tunnel so that the Purple and Red lines can stop at different platform faces (like QBP in NYC).
I don't think the purple line would get busy enough to require that kind of capacity, but if it does get busy, that would be a smart thing to do.
AEM7
So the E line will terminate at Park St., and the D will be running parallel to the green lines, only it will be the pink line? Also, is North Point or Homer Square the new name for Lechemere? -Nick
There are serious operating issues between Kenmore and Government Center. My proposed solution is to build heavy-rail tunnels alongside the existing underground trolley trackage and make D-line a heavy-rail line. The BC and E lines would terminate at Park, but the D will travel express between Kenmore and Park stopping only at Copley. At the North end (Lechmere Line), North Point is where there was a housing development and it's close to Lechmere, so we'll just move the stop. Homer Sq. is at the junction Washington/McGarth Hwy in Somerville. Somerville City Hall is in Gilman Sq. All those stops are approximately 0.75 mile apart (heavy-rail type station spacing).
AEM7
Sommeville's city hall is on Highland Ave in the same area as the High School. I didnt know that area was known as Gillman Sq.
Interesting idea to make the D line heavy-rail. I've wondered how to ease the congestion in the Central Green Line Subway (Kenmore Through Park Street), and I wondered if more tracks could be added in each direction by widening the stations and tunnels. I know Park Street didn't always have four tracks, so this has been done before. -Nick
Ive lived in the city of Revere all my life. Every time election time would come around Revere and Lynn the person running would use the Blue Line extention to gain votes. After the election was complete the extention issue would be forgoten about till the next election. Well it would take alot on the MBTA to reclaim the old Boston Revere Brach and Lynn R.O.W.. As home owners moved on to the land and the city authroized condo complexes to be built on the ROW withot permission of the MBTA at the time.
Disscussion:
Here's my own subway line survey
TOP 5 severely overcrowded (Greatest ridership) subway lines:
1. E
2. F
3. A
4. 4
5. 5
Top 5 somehow overcrowded Subway line:
1. W
2. J Z
3. R
4. 6
5. 2
Top 5 somewhat overcrowded Subway line:
1. N C
2. J Z
3. 1
4. S (42nd Shuttle)
5 (Q)
TOP 5 Less crowded subway lines:
1 M
2 G
3 3
4. S (Franklin Shuttle) & (Rockaway Shuttle)
5. V
TOP 5 Cleanest Car:
1 R38 (C)
2 R42 (M)(L)
3 R40S
4 R142 (6)
5 R32 (R)
B and D lines - N/A Haven't ride those line in a long time since 7/22/01
Any subwayriders are welcome share their different views.
Are you going to give us a clue as to your methodology? At the very least, when and where did you make these observations?
Where's the 7? it has some of the highest tph, the only line that NORMALLY runs 11-car trains, and is extremely crowded most of the time.
Well, I don't ride or go near 7. Thanks for additional info.
I'll be leaving my house as soon as I find my Mets hat which I misplaced and will be off line for a week while my family and I cavort at the seashore. Catch you all later.
See ya!
Using a Zone 3 monthly pass, I have pretty much used the LIRR as a local service for the past 9 years. By that I mean I use it to get other places other than from Flushing to Manhattan and back 10 times a week. To a part time job in Bayside; to a friend's house in Great Neck; to a girlfriend's house in Woodside. I figure I use my monthly pass for about 15 to 20 rides more than the average commuter using the same $117 monthly pass.
I see that the LIRR doesn't exactly encourage this kind of monthly pass usage...it's not mentioned prominently in their Mail & Ride ads. I wonder if they actually keep statistics or surveys about how their monthly passes get used, and if they'd take action, like fare hikes, if there were TOO MANY rides being used on the monthly pass.
I also note that the LIRR does not make any efforts to tailor its schedule for local service. The eastbound Port Washington branch often arrives at Woodside at :30 past the hour, and many westbounds from Jamaica often are scheduled to arrive at :27 after. So, most of the time, you'll make that connection. Sometimes, though, the westbound will be a touch late and the operator will NOT wait for a cross platform connection. A simple solution would be to schedule the westbound a bit earlier, but there is no thought given to it. I'm not the only one making that transfer--on a busy day, about 20 other passengers do it as well.
But LIRR schedules are drawn up to facilitate Manhattan-bound passengers only....
www.forgotten-ny.com
When I got to watch the Mets game I come from Hicksville in which it requires me to change at Woodside. However the connections are not that good to the Port Washington Branch. I find it easier to spend the extra car fare and take the number 7 train. The LIRR creates train Schdules for those going to Shea from Penn and they seem to not give a shit about those coming from Eastern Long Island. Are they trying to encourage people to use their cars to go to the games?
I wonder if they actually keep statistics or surveys about how their monthly passes get used, and if they'd take action, like fare hikes, if there were TOO MANY rides being used on the monthly pass.
No. Not at all. Maybe this will change if they do some kind of high-tech fare system, but they have no way of finding out how often any particular pass is used, or even aggregate figures. If they want to determine riding in a particular area, they put people on the trains at specific times and locations, you know; "One sheep ... two sheep ... three sheep .. darn, lost count ... one sheep."
They don't even keep track of individual tickets any more. By standard methods of railroad accounting, when you sell, for example, a single fare ticket for $5.00, you have have sales of $5.00 which is offset in your ledger by a liability of $5.00. In other words, you haven't earned $5.00 of gross income yet because you still owe the purchaser $5.00 worth of train ride. When the trainman lifts your ticket and it arrives back at the railroad accounting office, then they've earned the $5.00.
At some time in the past, they said "oh, screw it" (it probably helped that they were a public agency and wouldn't be harassed by tax officials) "we'll just account for these on a cash basis." So ... I don't know what method they now use, but they just count your ticket purchase as income at some point between the day of sale and three months later, when your ticket is technically worthless.
So what happens to your ticket after the trainman punches it and puts it in his pocket? If you're into cancelled ticket collecting, check out the trash cans at a station like Babylon, where trainmen turn in their money, and help your self to piles of cancelled tickets. WARNING--it is technically illegal to remove anything from the trash on the LIRR, mainly to keep people from tossing trash around to get a free newspaper. Better to rummage when noone who looks like they might give you a different kind of ticket is looking. And please don't scatter debris if you do.
WARNING--it is technically illegal to remove anything from the trash on the LIRR, mainly to keep people from tossing trash around to get a free newspaper.
What? Do you mean that LIRR riders actually use trash cans? Impossible!
Must have been a typo...
:0)
Boston's MBTA actually encourages monthly pass users to use their passses for other than commuting. They have a "two for one" on Sundays, where you can take a guest for free by flashing your pass to the bus driver, station agent, or commuter train conductor. (That's right -- MBTA commuter rail passes are good for all services, including subway and bus.)
And when I have to use my pass for a longer ride than it's good for, the add-on charge is pretty reasonable. It's $2.00 plus $.25 for each zone. So if I use my Zone 2 pass for a Zone 6 ride, it costs me $3.00 in cash (instead of paying a $4.75 retail fare).
Commuters in Boston don't know how good they have it: My 18-mile one-way Zone 2 ride retails for $97 per month, and that INCLUDES bus and subway. Even better, my employer pays 50% of that, pre-tax. There are other incentives too: Those who use pass-by-mail get one month a year free. And those who mail 11 passes to their insurance agent get a $75 per year rebate on their auto insurance.
>>>>Commuters in Boston don't know how good they have it: My 18-mile one-way Zone 2
ride retails for $97 per month, and that INCLUDES bus and subway. Even better, my
employer pays 50% of that, pre-tax. There are other incentives too: Those who use
pass-by-mail get one month a year free. And those who mail 11 passes to their
insurance agent get a $75 per year rebate on their auto insurance. <<<
I see that the MBTA is proposing a new line as well. Along with the at-long-last big dig completion and the new Charlestown Bridge Boston seems to be at last making its plans come to fruition. They already built a new Orange Line in the 80s and extended the Red Line.
Of course the big dig has had cost overruns, union problems and delays. But at least it's getting built. New York City has not added a new subway line since 1940. Every few years, the Second Avenue is proposed, blueprints are drawn. But in the end, either the nimbys or the accountants always win and the 2nd Avenue, or any other line like a #7 extension, is never built. When the next boom happens, they talk about it again. Then when the inevitable bust happens, the subways are told they have to wait.
Boston at least tries to get it done and in many cases, succeeds, as far as rapid transit and urban projects go, from the perspective of this Flushing-ite.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The schedules are really made for commuter going into and out of Penn Station. The MTA, the parent of all these local lines, does run TV ads encouraging people to use the MTA. But they dont really do a good job of really convincing people of the benefits of using mass transit, like depending less on foreign oil, less stress by leaving the "driving" to someone else, cleaning the environment for future generations by not using the car so much. These statements are never mentioned in the MTA's TV ad.
Anybody know why DE30s were running from Jamaica-City Line today? I saw 500 8 double deckers and 517 on 1 train and 502 and 511 on another. I assume it was b/c of the power.
#500 DE 30 LIRR
There are now 2 or 3 weekend dual modes running between Penn and Patchogue/Speonk. This started with the summer track work. I don't know if it will continue once the work is completed in September.
CG
I didn't know that. None of the weekend Montauk trains do, just Patchogue and Speonk?
You do see a fair amount of local travel on the Ronkonkoma line. Hicksville and Mineola, in particular, attract quite a few local riders.
On weekends and during rush hours it's impossible to go between the Port Washington and Forest Hills. Trains that stop at FH skip Woodside, trains that stop at Woodside skip FH. So the only way to actually do it is via Penn Station!
There's alot of local travel on the babylon branch between lynbrook and babylon also. Service is frequent enough (every 30 min) that you don't really need to look at a schedule at times.
It looks like Local 100 has won a mighty victory for the Local 100 Queens Bus Drivers. According to the news reports, if the drivers ratify the new agreement, they'll get 4% for the first 12 months, 4% for the 2nd 12 months and 1% for the last 3 months of the contract. So by simple math:
Strike, when ended will have lasted 7.6 weeks.
Average driver earns $20.35/Hr. (according to the news reports)
So the average driver lost $6,186.00 for the duration of the strike if he didn't work overtime.
4% rate increase = $0.814/Hr.
At that rate, the drivers will recoup what they lost during the strike in just 38 weeks.
Now, that's what I call a great victory!
Dude:
I am a bit perplexed by your math here. For a 40 hour week, your calculations on what each driver lost is correct. However, with a raise of 81.4¢/hr, each driver would make an additional $32.56/week. At that rate, the drivers would receive a raise of $1,693.00 for the first year. Too late at night for me to figure raises for second year and beyond. So, it appears that it will take quite a bit longer than 38 weeks for the drivers to recoup what they lost.
The increase and time period does not acknowledge TWU100 Welfare or contributions from members.
Lou, you're likely correct. See, heypaul had his uses here. I'm glad you're here to pick up the slack.
Your math is off.
If they get $0.814 more per hour, times 40 hours per week, each driver is now making $32.56 more per week. (we're going to ignore how much of this bonus is lost due to taxes and whatever)
They lost $6,186.00, and making it up at $32.56 per week, they'll get it all back in.....*drumroll please*
190.0 weeks!
So in a little over 3 and a half years, they'll be recovered from their losses in the past two months. Then they can start earning new money!
Oh, and by the way, this new contract only lasts 27 months (12+12+3), or a little over 2 years.
The Local 100 union leaders would've been well off taking some algebra in high school.
TWU Local 100 still get new Mercedes Benz sedans...thanks to my ten buck contribution to feed the families of striking workers...Bloomberg got em a 2 Million dollar bridge loan to support their medical benefits. The most important benefit at my age is the medical benefits...much more important than salary. "MY' union sucks big time...I cannot understand how others maintain full time work outside of TA when I put my heart, soul and skills into my assignments and drag my body home. Last week, union flunkies came about looking for money at 239th AFTER we got together and filled the plate of alms. Where was Roger Touissaint or his reps...maggots have NOT been to 239th in nearly two years. I hate unions and closed shops, I hate the phoney seniority system. I hope you guys in management passed every English speaking Car inspector prospect with low test scores....I'll work with every 'hungry guy' with a skill to nurse em along and teach em everything I know just to prove a point.
I know how lucky and God Graced I am to have this new work and September 17ths CI class knows it well...we saw WTC collapse and TA DID NOT suspend our starting date. Roger Touissaint and the rest of his lazy union slackers...need six months of Redbird undercar. We are CED...WE MAKE TRAINS GO everday...WE are the heart and soul of the system. CI peter
Wow CI Peter, I never knew how rough Car Inspectors had it. Good luck in all future Individual and Union endeavors.
Thankyou my friend 'Flyerlover.' Signal maintainance, track repair and car inspectors share hazards and filth that the public never hears about. We're 'hands on' in inspection and repair and but a small part of TWU 100. If we 'pulled the plug,' TWU 100 would be 'schmaltz.' Get that Roger Touisssaint while chugging down a 'Red Stripe' and the bottlecap or chickenhead gets stuck in your throat.
The Local 100 union leaders would've been well off taking some algebra in high school.
Or, put another way:
Major Victory for Local 100 Strike Breakers
It looks like the TWU has won a mighty victory for the Local 100 Queens Bus Drivers. According to the news reports, if the drivers ratify the new agreement, they'll get 4% for the first 12 months, 4% for the 2nd 12 months and 1% for the last 3 months of the contract. So by simple math:
Strike, when ended will have lasted 7.6 weeks.
Average driver earns $20.35/Hr. (according to the news reports)
So the average driver lost $6,186.00 for the duration of the strike if he didn't work overtime.
4% rate increase = $0.814/Hr.
At that rate, the drivers will recoup what they lost during the strike in just 38 weeks.
Now, that's what I call a great victory!
Did TWU offer strike pay? If so, how much did that amount to?
The TWU offering strike pay. That's a good one. I remember back in 1980 when the last big strike took place and I walked the picket line in the freezing cold, we didn't even get so much as hot coffee and donuts from the union. The only persons that received their regular salaries were the big union bosses and their strike pay was provided by the hourly employees that received absolutely nothing. That strike lasted eleven days and we lost twenty two days due to the Taylor Law(two days pay for every day on strike) Remember any loss is a loss that you never recover from.
Well, these local 100 guys get a little something every day they do picket duty. There was a BBQ from day one along with bottoles of water.
That doesn't change the fact that they lost the battle ... did they loose the war, it remains to be seen (I haven't seen a LONG strike yet that was a winner for either side). On this side of the picket line I'll be glad to see them come back.
It's called 'Family Day at Rye Playland'.
I think that should have been cancelled and the money used to get all these discounts distributed among strikers.
No offense, but IMO it seems 100 is more interested in shin-digs than important stuff.
Not true, Tony. They are throwing a lot of support to the "Free Mumia" movement.
It's called 'Family Day at Rye Playland'.
I think that should have been cancelled and the money used to get all these discounts distributed among strikers.
No offense, but IMO it seems 100 is more interested in shin-digs than some of the important stuff.
Lets also remember they get health benfits without cost (or additional cost) out of pocket to the member.
Will the company default on the loan?
So the average driver lost $6,186.00 for the duration of the strike if he didn't work overtime.
4% rate increase = $0.814/Hr.
At that rate, the drivers will recoup what they lost during the strike in just 38 weeks.
Could you elaborate a bit more on your calculation?
He's trying to be funny at their expense. I'm glad none of them work for him, because there is too much paperwork when there's blood on the floor.
He's trying to be funny at their expense
I thought I detected a whiff of sarcasm. It's hard to be sure because he has been underestimating his failure rate by roughly the same percentage. :-)
Actually I am surprised not to see any number crunching by you on this topic.
Only one person hit on the answer. It will be YEARS before they break even. There is a very good graduate paper on the subject.
First you have to compare the settlement to what was on the table. In most of these scenarios it really is not that much different than the last offer on the table.
Second after a strike the next 3 contracts tend to come in higher than average that is the long term consequence that gets lost. The last transit strike took 8 years to pay off. The biggest benficiaries of this strike are the people that will become employees after the next contract come up in April. Just as I am still getting the money from the previous two strikes.
Now for some other facts.
Most of these guys earn MASSIVE overtime as they work split shifts several days a week. With a base of $42K it is very easy for drivers to earn $65-70, the other guys make less. But this means being out may have lost them 9K in income. So the big earners about to retire take the biggest hit while others with years to go will benefit escpeccially with the OT.
This is a retroactive contract as they have been without one for quite a long time so back pay will make this up for some of them immediately.
There was no job protection bill that looks like it will pass with a veto proof majority before the strike except as vague talk.
They did get their medical which is a step in the real goal, lifetime medical.
Unlike MTA their pensions are based on years of service NOT a formula based on final pay or last few years pay. Your monthly pension is a fixed amount something like $88 times your years of service. This means that stiking does not hurt the pensions of people about to go out (well you might have to work and extra month). Someone just about to go out in the MTA would really get hurt as your final years pay would take a hit. It will be interesting if proposed buyouts will make the MTA more radical with the people on their way out, most hurt and I assume least likely to vote for a strike gone.
As a former Teamster, the best strike is one that doesn't happen. The next best is over in a day or so. If it goes beyond that the members never make up what they lost. Local 100 lost this battle. Can they re-group & win the war ... we'll have to wait and see.
It occurs to me that Roger T. wanted the "private" owners & union members to get a divorce ... well this was a very expensive one. Did the members realy want/need it, or was it just that Roger made them believe it ? If I were in MTA/TA management I would be more motivated to challenge Roger in the future ... he got wounded by this & TA management is good at smelling blood. I would guess that the anti-New Directions members will use this against him too.
Exactly, past 4 weeks the payoff is too far away.
This is also about other thing not strictly money and a few hundred dollars in health benefits per person. These guys are terrified of Regional Bus. Anyone can get fired all routes can be changed to get rid of most OT the ones that remain will get more work added, you can get picked out of your job and forced to work far from your house.
Look at the ad campaign the TWU ran a few months ago showing drivers with 32 and 40 years on the road. You just don't see that in the NYC system as often, because they have it very nice in the private lines and don't want it to change or if regional happens they want to make sure their generation does not lose out. Even with the IRT and BMT takeovers there are contract provisions that kept seniority for the workers within their own systems.
What they REALLY wanted was the legislation from the City Council.
You'd be surprised several people I talk to are now convinced we are going out in December and that Roger can claim victory in this round. Even the VP that walked out and threatened leaving the Union came back to the fold. With the exception of maybe one person here I go to more meetings than anyone, there is a ton of more stuff going on and frankly most of the people here have no clue about most of it or have a distorted picture. I am an anti-ND person, too.
If you strike in December, that will NOT last more than a day or two. The city or state will pony up. Two strikes in a year won't look good in the city.
Wrong, that's not the reason.
The City will go to court & bankrupt the union in no time. That will force them back with their tail between their legs.
I seriously hope Roger doesn't pull that blunder. The Union & management need to be fairly equal players ... too much on one side and the members loose big time, too much the other way and the taxpayers pay for it until the cows come home.
You can't say the strike was a win unless you know what was on the table at the beginning (you or others may know this, but I don't). The gain from the strike isn't the entire amount of the increase, but only the increase over what was being offered when the drivers walked.
Let's suppose that there was a 2.5% cost of living increase on the table as management's last offer before the strike. The real gain from the strike is then only 1.5%, or 30.525 cents per hour. 40 hours per week, 52 weeks a year makes it a gain of just $634 in the first year to the average driver. Of course, there's a second year where the compounding of 4% on 4% beats 2.5 on 2.5 by 63 cents an hour. So the gain in the second year is $1,311. Total gain is $1,945. Now that $6,186 cost of striking doesn't look so good.
CG
There's this game. It made me think of some of Jersey Mike's postings. One of the people on airliners.net, where the game was first mentioned, said it ranked up there in the humor scale with the burn ward at a children's hospital. Me, I found it pretty funny, though it got a bit boring after time.
Hey, who knew national defense was so easy!
Cute game...might be offensive to some...I just find it boring.
Yikes...both very disturbing, yet humerous at the same time! -Nick
Actually, my postings were inspired by that old "Missile Defence" game, which this is a version of. God that game was fun. I could make it to like level 7.
Cool... funny, yet offensive to some...
I got annoyed because my hand got tired. You'd be surprised how the dullest of games get you addicted.
Tasteless, but then it's in French...
-Hank
I found it incredibly SIMPLE, and boring much like an earlier commenter whose name I forgot and am too lazy to go back and look for at the moment.
But for anyone questioning the patriotism of the author, there's always sweet revenge no matter what your "blood and guts and things in my teeth" quotient:
Kill Osama and related things
Hit Osama with a pie
Slap Osama!
Señior Arafat
Turnabout is fair play. Moo.
"Click with your mouse to fight the feeling of powerlessness/impotence."
I'm visitng New York for my annual subway fix. I'd like to take some pics of subway yards. Any suggestions on good places, i.e., easy to get to by subway, good vantage points, etc.
Thanks,
Bill
Corona Yard is very accessible. Get off at the Shea Stadium stop on the 7, and walk right over the yard.
Other yards: Concourse Yard is quite visible. Coney Island Yard.
Anybody else want to pipe in?
Try Broadway Junction
The best view of Coney Island Yard, IMO, is on the Sea Beach trackage between 86th Street and Stillwell Avenue. Unfortunately, the N no longer runs there, since it lost its platform at Stillwell last year. However, on an occasional weekend or midday, the N does run through to Stillwell (usually in conjunction with a suspension of W service; the N runs round-robin), or the W runs in one direction on the Sea Beach tracks. Keep your eyes on the Weekly Subway Service Advisories.
That said, the W (on its regular route) also cuts through a corner of the yard, and the F runs along its east edge.
Jamaica Yard leads share a pedestrian overpass over the Grand Central. It might be blocked off now, since there is nothing on the other side of the overpass a pedestrian would want to go to...
If you have a decent telephoto lens, stand at the northern end of the Neptune Ave (F) platform for good shots into CI Yard.
Others have already mentioned East New York & Corona.
--Mark
Westchester yard.
Westchester yard. Home of the 6.
Subdued dye clothing, anti reflective coatings on objective lenses and a rapid means of escape. General Orders still stand...report all suspicious activities to proper authorities. No matter how much you love railfanning, your interest still 'presents a risk' to the system and unannounced observation is in question. CI Peter
Concourse yard, in the Bronx, is viewable from the North-end of the southbound platform of the 4 train stop at Bedford Park Blvd.
Peace,
ANDEE
For 239th Street - I'd try to get a shot from a N/B #2. At Concourse I'd try from both ends of the S/B platform at the Bedford Park Blvd IRT. You can also standon the bridges at Bedford Park or 205th Street.
Wayne
For that 239th Street yard....take the 2 to 241st Street, and then walk east on 241st Street for a couple of blocks. You'll be right alongside the north edge of the yard, and you'll get a good close up look at whatever trains are in that part of the yard.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I knew I could count on Sub-Talkers! I'll be spending my next few days riding the rails and taking pics of various structures as part of the research I'm doing for the HO model of the NY subway I plan to build.
Thanks again.
Bill J
Every weekend this month, the W is cut back to Bay Parkway ("Bay Parkway / Bensonhurst" on the R-68A rollsigns). Is the work taking place somewhere on the elevated structure or is the work taking place at Stillwell itself? If the former, why not send the N through to Stillwell on weekends for the time being? If the latter, why not run service to Bay 50th with shuttle buses taking over there? (FWIW, I didn't see any work going on at the Stillwell W platform this afternoon.)
Maybe they're enjoying the crew quarters at Bay Parkway. I'm not entirely sure of the switching capabilities of Bay 50th. Perhaps it has something to do with signaling. The same thing that kept M Trains at 9 Avenue or relaying behind Bay 50th for a few weeks.
Yeah Yesterday I went to my God-brother house and I had to take the W from Pacific st. - Bay Pkwy, so this was good for me, then when I came downstairs they had Shuttle Buses leaving out 86 st. & Bay Pkwy.
I work the W as a conductor. I don't work weekends, but from what's been going on the last 2 weeks Monday-Friday, with the midday GO of us going southbound over the Sea Beach, I would say they are preparing to cut-in the new signals and switches at Bay 50th Street (Tower D) interlocking. I cant answer about the N going through to Stillwell, that's another area altogether, but it does make sense.
Thanks. Speaking of the recurring weekday GO, is the Sea Beach express track out of service again? I was on a W train last week that ran local on the Sea Beach; usually it runs express.
I don't think the center track on the Sea Beach was OOS the last 2 weeks, my thinking is we ran local to provide easier access to the West End stations in Borough PArk via the transfer at 62nd/New Utrecht. Otherwise the move would be to change at 59th St. for the N, take it to NU and then change to the Manhattan bound W upstairs. This has been done many times the past couple of years, and I could never figure out why. It always made more sense to me to run local on the Sea Beach just for this reason. Besides, waiting for the timer on that home signal south of Bay PArkway on the center track always negated any time saving.
Oh, I agree absolutely that it doesn't make sense to run the W express on the Sea Beach, at least not southbound. (If you've seen the usual service advisories, they instruct passengers to transfer at New Utrecht, even though W's don't stop there if they're running express. At some point last year the recurring error was fixed, but then it came back again.)
When it comes to railfanning, though, the express track is a real thrill (even if it doesn't save any time over the local). I got so disillusioned last week when my train went local that I got off at 8th Avenue and took an N straight back to Pacific!
It would be even better if they would upgrade the roadbed on E3/4. The local tracks on the Sea Beach line have 115 lb. rail clamped to tieplates with those newer type fasteners, they also use CWR (continuous welded rail). However, E3/4 (the express track) still has 100 lb. rail spiked to tie plates and rail sections bolted together. My motorman absolutely refuses to go faster than 25 mph on the express track, quite frankly I can't blame him. God only knows how old some of those ties are, and when I work with someone else who goes faster, the train rocks and sways all over the place. Another tidbit the board may be interested in -- on E3 track (the other express track that was severed and is no longer used) some rails date from 1914 -- the year the Sea Beach line was built! E3/4 sure could use an upgrade, but unless this track is to be used for a regular service sometime in the future, it's probably not high on the priority list.
Think I was on the southbound platform of Bay Parkway or Kings Highway, theres a slight S curve (like between Beverly and Newkirk on the brighton Line) . Watched a W running on the express track; was sweet to see it hook around the corner, fly pass and around the next corner.
Its a shame the express tracks don't have more of a use in commuter service. Seems too far west to be extended east anywhere: only thought, along Avenue U to Kings Plaza; or Kings Highway to relieve the B82 a bit, all fantasies tho.
Wondering if we get the 2012 Olympics, will they use it to get people to Coney Island (Only Olympic event in Brooklyn: Indoor Volleyball @ Coney Is)
This past Friday morning, while waiting for a Manhattan-bound N at 20th Avenue, an R-68 N bound for Coney stopped the other way, followed immediately by a W with passengers going the other way- which also stopped. A few minutes later, while the Slanted N I was on was stopped at 18th Avenue, I saw another W, with passengers, fly through in the same direction on the express track. Then there was a Coney-bound R32 N stopped at Fort Ham, followed by a W stopped at 8th Avenue.
So it seems very inconsistent as to whether the Coney-bound W rerouted middays over the N is supposed to run express or local.
According to the GO they're supposed to run express, but for some reason Control doesn't get it. I heard a W the other day double checking the lineup and Control responded "You're supposed to run local I don't know where you got express from."
FWIW, on the W I rode that went local, the C/R announced 8th Avenue, not Stillwell, as the next stop at 59th. Either he knew he was going local or he guessed. (I wouldn't be too surprised if he guessed; the same C/R's only announcement at 36th regarding the service diversion was "W express!" Um, no, wrong diversion.)
I was wondering when you would ask. The weekend GO is for track panel replacement at Bay 50 St. So, for the rest of August, Ws run from Bay Parkway to Pacific St on the weekends, Labor Day weekend should see no weird GOs, then the next weekend, Stillwell closes, Ns go to Pacific and Ws go to Astoria.
Yes, you've learned my routine by now. I was going to ask you in person if I happened to run into you at Pacific, but I didn't know your schedule so I didn't.
So there's no particular reason that the N wasn't extended to Stillwell except to avoid the hassle of putting together a supplement schedule.
Incidentally, when a route is shortened for a GO, fewer crews than usual are needed. Where does the excess go?
Incidentally, when a route is shortened for a GO, fewer crews than usual are needed. Where does the excess go?
They fall to the board. Even if its a picked job.
Incidentally, when a route is shortened for a GO, fewer crews than usual are needed. Where does the excess go?
Oops, hit Post too quickly and didn't get to finish my thought (stupid tab key... 'I'm thirsty, think I'll order a Tab.').
It really depends (on what, I don't know).
Sometimes, the extra crews become extra board, or are made WAA (Work As Assigned) Jobs, which is really just extra board under a different name.
Other times, they'll drop trips from a crew's schedule. Take the A as an example. When its shortlined to Lefferts Blvd, some crews make 1 trip or a trip and a half instead of the usual 2.
And a third possibility: the supplement just creates more service to use all the crews.
What are the change for sept. will the 1/9 return and will the 2 run express again
This project is once ahead of schedule. Originally things were supposed to be back to Normal in November, but then it was pushed up to 9/30, and now the project is going even faster..so it should open on or around 9/15. Something tells me they might work harder to open it 4 days earlier. -Nick
Last week, one of TA worker told me that the IRT 1 2 3 9 line will will be restore sometime in september be4 or after the N/W flip flop that is scheduled be in effect at 9/8. Check out http://www.subwaywebnews.com/tour.htm, looks like those TA engineer workers are patching thing up quickly. I think they deserve a big fat bonus on their paycheck.
I was on the 7:38pm NJ Transit train out of New Brunswick today (it left at 7:48pm). It was a train of Arrow MU's and I didn't get a count of how many cars. Anyhow, he came into the station really fast and the the first 2 or 4 cars overshot the platform. Apparently this was done on purpose because of a problem with the doors not opening on those first cars. I heard a trainman mention that. It makes sense because if they just didn't want people to sit in the first few cars, they wouldn't overshoot the platform, right? Actually that doesn't make sense. Anyhow, I boarded a car, and found it to be without lighting or A/C. It also had a really bad burning smell like rubber burning or brakes "burning". I then moved up 2 cars to get in one with A/C and lights and without the bad smell. Long story short, the engineer started booking up the NE Corridor because we got to Penn Sta NY at 8:37pm, four minutes early (after we had left 10 minutes late).
Ok, I'm kinda confused now. I just looked at my printed timetable dated June 16, 2002, and it doesn't show the 7:38pm train out of New Brunswick. In fact, the whole schedule is different from what I saw posted at the station and what is posted on the "point to point schedule" section of NJ Transit's website. Am I reading this timetable wrong, or what? For Saturday, Sunday, and Holidays, it says 5:53pm, 6:53pm, and 7:53pm. The online schedule and the one posted at New Brunswick said 5:38pm, 6:51pm, 7:38pm, and 8:38pm. What is going on here?
False alarm, I answered my own question by downloading the PDF file of the NE Corridor schedule and I see that there was a new schedule as of August 3, 2002. If I had known that I would have picked one up in Penn Sta NY this evening. Oh well.
Apparently this was done on purpose because of a problem with the doors not opening on those first cars. I heard a trainman mention that. It makes sense because if they just didn't want people to sit in the first few cars, they wouldn't overshoot the platform, right?
Actually, they would. Commuters stand in specific locations on the platform and get pissed if the doors don't open and they have to walk. It also delays boarding. So they simply pull the train up to where the people expect it to be.
On MBTA Red Line I periodically see they overshoot the platform, but by the sound of what you said, the NJTransit overshoot was done delibrately. As for the smelly brake pads and no AC, I think you were maybe in an out-of-service car.
AEM7
Commuters stand in specific locations on the platform
Called "cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half moons."
Very cute. That's a good one, Peter.
[Southern voice now] Huhhhhhhh???????
They are having to wrong rail through the hudson tubes on weekends which is screwing everything up.
See subject
I rode one them this morning!
I am told that 50 Cars remain on the 6 as part of a reserve. I'd suppose they remain for emergency purposes (to fill in for R-142A train when needed) at least for the time being. This seems to have put a temporary hold on the transfer of cars to Corona.
Car assignments are subject to change.
-Stef
Thanks for the heads up.
Yes, I saw one at Parkchester yesterday.
There's an unconfirmed report that 1746-50 and 1756-60 have left the 6. I haven't seen it so I don't know for sure.
If that is the case, Cars 1716-25, 1736-40, 1761-70, 1776-90 are all that remain on the 6.
-Stef
Working off the numbers you provide and what my memory recalls, I would guess that 1736-40 and one of the 5 car sets from 1761-70 were the trains running. I do not recall seeing 1776 or higher. I should have written it down but oh well.
1786-90 are part of the Livonia fleet as of Monday when I first noitced them.1746-50/56-60 was at Gh/WPR middle a couple of weeks ago. Saw a whole bunch T/Os. Probbaly school car refresher.
Just saw 1786-90 again on the Livonia El. It is hooked up with 1806-10 which got the blue Livonia Stripe.
I had that train earlier this week. 1790 was my operating car
I saw 1786-90, but where have 1746-50 and 1756-60 gone? Inquiring minds want to know....
-Stef
They have not hit the No.1/3 Lines yet. Maybe they are going to Flushing.
Yes, I saw one at Grand Central last week.
they have gone to a better place, the 7 line ;-)
Amen! I take the 7 often, so I've noticed the change!
i know this has been asked before... but the question is for TA employees[in the know..].Is there a specific reason why the R142/142a cant operate on the Flushing line? Does it have something to do with the Corona barn or the Steinway tunnels? thank you.
Who says they CAN'T run there? They DON'T...that doesn't mean they CAN'T.
However, one reason they don't is that they are configured in five-car sets, which would mean trains of no more than ten cars (yes, the cars are designed to be able to run in six-car sets, but doing so would create operational difficulties since NYCT ordered enough cars of each sub-type to make five-car sets). Outside of summertime, the #7 has eleven-car trains. An experiment was recently done using ten-car trains on rush-hour headways (on a weekend), and it failed (go into the archives for more on this -- it was in the spring of this year).
David
VERNON: Joe McHugh [Amtrak Director of Government Affairs] told me Monday night prior to the accident in Kensington (where the Capital Limited derailed) you had 92 cars out of service, sitting idle in those yards.
GUNN: Yes, at Beech Grove, but we lost eight more.
VERNON: So you have 100 cars.
GUNN: Well, it’s 105 cars, actually...
VERNON: Wow, 105 cars, that’s a lot of equipment.
GUNN: It’s a disaster.
VERNON: You have a bill in Congress while you’re waiting for repairs, but I understand you’re not waiting for that.
GUNN: First of all, we’ve got a loan from DOT for $100 million, then the Congress put in a supplemental appropriations $205 million which is not restricted, it’s just operating cash. It’s not for any specific purpose. This will keep us alive in the fall. We requested $1.2 billion next year in prior appropriation, which is the money that actually the previous management put in. I didn’t change it. It’s tight, but I think it’s doable.
What I had planned to do, to the extent I could, was to make significant reductions in non-essential stuff here at Amtrak and put the money into car rebuilding, track and so forth. That was going to happen. We were going to do that in the 2003 budget, which starts in October.
VERNON: So you do have money to start doing that?
GUNN: Well, whether we have the money or not, we’re going to start doing it.
VERNON: How can you do it without it the money?
GUNN: Well, what I’m doing is... I have enough money to begin cranking up, and I’ve ordered the operating department to begin mobilizing and rebuilding cars, and also restore some level of overhaul on these Amfleet cars. We don’t know what our appropriations will be next year, but it doesn’t matter, because if they’re not going to give us more money to run Amtrak we’ll just go out of business with our shops up and running. If they give us enough money we’ll have rebuilt cars. In other words, we’re at a point where it doesn’t matter. We have to do this; we have to do it if we’re going to run the railroad.
VERNON: So you’re saying...
GUNN: I’m betting on the come, is what I’m doing. [He expects to get the cash-Ed.]
I can fund a lot of it internally, assuming that Amtrak is funded. We have an operation and within that operation I can take resources and redirect them to overhaul, that’s what I intend to do. The big question is, ‘is the operation going to be funded?’
I don’t know. I think so; I think we have a fair amount support over there for the $1.2 billion.
VERNON: If I understand you correctly, you’re saying it’s $1.2 billion or nothing.
GUNN: No, I’m saying $1.2 billion is the amount we have asked for, they can give us $1.4 and we’ll...
VERNON: What if they give you just...
GUNN: $500 million?
VERNON: $900 million?
GUNN: It gets real chancy; we’ll have another cash crisis.
VERNON: Okay.
GUNN: Obviously you can play the ‘salami’ game, you say, “Well, what if they give you $1.1 billion, $999 million.... What’s one dollar? Can you live without one dollar? Then we can go down and play that game.
I’m not sure at this point. The number we’re focusing on is $1.2 billion. That is going to be very tight.
VERNON: “There’s also something that was slipped into the Homeland Security bill for $55 million to help you repair those cars. Now, don’t you need that too?”
GUNN: Well, look, ultimately we need more than $1.2 billion but – and if – we get an added block of funding that’s fine but money is money. What you have to do is, you have to look at Amtrak’s operation, what does it cost to run it on a day-to-day basis. What do you need in the way of capital and heavy maintenance for the existing operation? Forget all this expansionary stuff.
Basically what we’ve said is, the $1.2 billion is probably doable for the next year, what I just said; but it would be very tight because we have a lot of obligations and prior deals that they (previous Amtrak management) made, like New York State on the Turbotrain and Pennsylvania on the Harrisburg Line. Things that chip away at the $1.2 million. I think that within the $1.2, even after taking out some of these other deals and taking out the debt repayment, which has to come out of it, the $100 million has to be paid back. On top of that, we now have to pay some of the $100 million a year in servicing our debt. That comes out of that. So you know it keeps chipping away at that number. If it’s $1.2 million, I think we can survive, and there will be enough money to do the car overhauls, get them back up and running, and get the track, do the essential stuff on the infrastructure. Would another $50 million make it easier? You bet. Are there good ways to spend that? You bet. But I’m not...
VERNON: You’re not counting on it.
GUNN: Well, you must deal with the totals. This business of saying, you know, look it’s like a human being if you need a 1,000 calories a day or 2,000 calories a day to survive, all right? And somebody says we’re not going to give you that but we’re going to give you 500 calories a day so you can run a marathon. Well, I mean, it doesn’t make any sense.
You see, you have to view this thing in totality. Do we need the money for wrecked and damaged cars?
Yep! – But what we really need is to have an appropriation that is not tied down with a lot of specifics that allows us to fund the operating deficit which is going to be a half billion dollars, give or take, probably $550 (million) and fund the heavy repair program which should probably should be classified as capital, but also might be put in the operating budget. That’s an accounting decision. But we know we need to spend a couple hundred million dollars in cars, we know that, next year; but we think we can spend it.
VERNON: well, a diner and a lounge were totaled at Kensington, also a coach, but, I mean, there are plenty of coaches, I hear, but there aren’t too many of the diners and lounges.
GUNN: we’re short, very short
VERNON: now you’re going to have to cut back on service because of that. I’m riding the Capitol Limited and the California Zephyr in a couple of weeks and I’m beginning to wonder if my train is going to be fully equipped in either direction.
GUNN: It won’t be. The Zephyr should be all right, but the Capital... we’re in trouble. They’re just trying to put together a plan for the Capital now. We’ve run out of cars, and the only way they’re going to be able to do it is speed up some of the turns in Chicago, it’s the only way. At this point I’m not going to make any predictions.
VERNON: So we may get a bucket of chicken instead of a dining car?
GUNN: It’s a very serious situation.
VERNON: You had to terminate the “Cap” in Pittsburgh? (for one day)?
GUNN: Yes, but that wasn’t due to equipment. That was due to tracks. As we said after the last derailment, one more derailment and we would have trouble meeting our service – that’s where we are. I haven’t had a chance to go downstairs and find where they are, but as of last night they were still scrambling to try and figure out how to put together a Capital Limited. There are a number of things we could do in the long run. I mean, we’ve got this; we really hurt ourselves on our transcontinental train. This express business and all the switching consume enormous amounts of time.
VERNON: And does it make enough money to really make it worth it?
GUNN: No, I do not think so.
VERNON: In other words, you want to eliminate the express service.
GUNN: Well, we’re taking a hard look at it. There’s no question on some of these issues.
VERNON: This morning, Tom Ramstack in the Washington Times says “the track segment where the Amtrak train derailed would have withstood the heat without buckling if it had been properly maintained, railroad track engineers say. The temperature was 97 degrees, the temperature on the track reached 118 degrees, and an engineer with the FRA says that good track should be able to withstand those force levels with no problem.” Now, that raises issues between Amtrak and CSX doesn’t it?
GUNN: I’m not going to argue with the engineer (chuckle).
VERNON: So what are you going to do? What can you do?
GUNN: I don’t want to discuss our relationship with CSX. Those statements stand on their own. If CSX disagrees with them, CSX can say it on their own, but I’m certainly not going to argue.
VERNON: Anything you have to say would be with them behind closed doors, I guess in negotiating sessions?
GUNN: It’s their railroad. It was their track. That statement goes to their maintenance practices and how they manage their railroad, and they should respond to them.
VERNON: Well, the freight railroads and the AAR have contended for a long time that they are not reimbursed for the use of their trackage by AMTRAK at market levels.
GUNN: That’s a red herring. I mean, I’m sorry, but first of all, there’s no market level for passenger trains riding over their tracks; and secondly, I’ve never seen a railroad say, “For this, you get 90 mph track.” We are a very small part of the tonnage going over their railroad and, as you know, in most cases it’s one train a day out of maybe 30, 40 trains, so I really think that the problem is that the railroads cannot say their track problems are caused by Amtrak. They cannot say that. They can say they wish they had more money, that’s fair. If they want more money, that’s fine, they can say that; but they can’t say that Amtrak causes the track problems.
VERNON: No, no I wasn’t linking it to that.
GUNN: How much money – I mean, what do they mean by “market based?” All they’re trying to do is squeeze a little more money, which I understand. I’d like to squeeze a little less, but the question there is: what do they need to maintain a proper track structure? What do they need? One train a day is not going to be enough money coming from Amtrak. They don’t have enough money to maintain their track if that’s what they’re saying, but I guess I don’t know if that’s what they’re saying. But if they are...
VERNON: Senator Hollings has a bill out there, his committee approved it 20-3, very comprehensive, provides not only for upgrading the current Amtrak system, but also for serious first step towards building a high-speed rail network. If that bill dies, will that also doom Amtrak?
GUNN: My sense is there’s a lot of support, there is a lot of support for rail. I think the public is way ahead of the politicians, that most people know that our continued reliance on roads and airlines for short hops is a failed strategy. You can’t build more roads in urban areas. I was at Montgomery County, Maryland last night. The Highway Department wants to build a connector to relieve congestion and you know, everybody knows, that’s a crock. If they build a connector to relieve congestion within a year that connector will be congested. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. You build a road, they will come, and they will fill it up – and the public understands that. The public has figured it out: that the highway engineers and the construction people and the oil industry have led us down a garden path. We are now to the point that we’re choking on our air, we’re physically choking on the space that we require, that the highways take up. We’re not going to build a lot more interstates where we need them to try and resolve congestion by highway, so I think there’s a general feeling that rail has an answer. If the rail industry – and we’re in that, obviously; we’re the spokespersons for that, if we can actually act together and provide some realistic cost-effective solutions for some of these corridors. So I think the Hollings bill is a great bill. I’m not criticizing the bill, but I think there’s a lot more pressure to deal with the transportation problems in this country moving people, so you can’t say that the whole thing is contingent upon one thread. That’s not going to be the case.
I think the Hollings bill has a lot to be said for it, I’m not criticizing it; I’m just saying that you don’t bet the whole ranch on that one thing. He represents an attitude that is becoming much more prevalent.
VERNON: Well you said in the past “I don’t do politics,” yet you knew when you took this job you have to deal with 535 politicians plus some people downtown...
GUNN: I’m not sure I ever said I don’t do politics I probably said...
VERNON: I saw that quote somewhere.
GUNN: I know, but I think that what I’ve always said is I much prefer running the railroad as opposed to politicking. It doesn’t mean I don’t deal with the political side. I’ve obviously been at this business within the public sector for since 1974, so that’s almost 30 years, and obviously I’ve had to do my share of convincing politicians; but I am not a politician.
VERNON: Well, have you had a discussion with Mitch Daniels the White House Budget Director?
GUNN: Yes
VERNON: Okay. Tell me how some of that goes.
GUNN: I think that when you deal with the government... well, take the Administration [for example]. There is no consensus within the Administration on what to do with Amtrak. It’s very clear Mitch Daniels would like to see us go bankrupt and get rid of us. We are just a nuisance to him and a source of expenses. On the other hand, I think there are people at DOT, and I’m sure that there are people in the White House, who think that there may be a need for a little more proactive transportation policy.
VERNON: Well you have (Health and Human Services Secretary) Tommy Thompson in your corner. But the trouble is, he’s in the wrong job.
GUNN: Look what’s going on. I think you’re never going to convince everybody that what we’re saying or proposing is the right thing to do, or what rail proponents say is the right thing to do. What I’m saying here is that you pick up enough support so that you carry the day. I mean, this is not a case where everybody has to agree to one solution. I can be, in one sense, sympathetic to Mitch Daniels because he has an enormous budget problem, enormous problem; but I think that what they’re doing, the attempt to put us under, and it’s ludicrous. It means they don’t understand the economics of Amtrak. If Amtrak made the decision tomorrow to go out of the long-haul business, we’d save the first full year of being out of the long haul business. We might save $18 –20 million – might! What that means is that if they really want to get rid of Amtrak and do it legally, they’ve got to fund us at least for a couple of years.
VERNON: Severance pay?
GUNN: Yes. I mean, do they want to fund us and run trains or fund us and not run trains? It’s going to cost them the same either way.
VERNON: Yes.
GUNN: So, I think that what I would say is that if someone is serious about doing us in, they better at least study the situation and have a plan that is real, although I’m not going to help them do that. You have a total divergence of views on this subject. I’ve met with a lot of the Senate and the House and even there, you have tremendous divergence of views, although you have a lot of support. That’s why I’m saying I really think that if Amtrak can get its own house in order in terms of its finances, and be absolutely clear about what is going on here, and prove that we are an efficient custodian of public money, I think you got a lot of support over there. I think Amtrak will have a better time of it – and the other thing is, I think we’ve reached [the end of] this ‘glidepath’ notion. If that isn’t dead now, it never will be because we have been really, really straightforward with what the economic reality of Amtrak is.
VERNON: Well, you know that there are some questions about bookkeeping under the previous management. The Amtrak Reform Council (was) mystified by what they called the “smoke and mirrors” they got. Were you surprised when you took over and found the books in – I guess –you would describe it as “a mess?”
GUNN: Well, I knew that Amtrak was in big trouble. I understood that when I took the job, but what I didn’t understand was the fact that they literally were having difficulty closing their books. I did not understand that. There were hundreds of millions of dollars for adjustments that had to be made to 2001 and prior years income statements. It was like $200 million worth of adjustments. I didn’t understand that; but that’s being straightened out. We’ve got our books in compliance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), and the chief financial officer that we have now is a very straightforward financial type person.
I’m talking about Deno Bokas, The acting CFO. I’m going to tell the board I’m going to appoint him at the board meeting next month. He’s the new CFO, he’s a CPA, and he’s a very straight-forward, no-nonsense financial controller type person. The books will reflect reality.
VERNON: I know you don’t like the blame game, but somebody is responsible for the way the books were kept prior to you coming here. You have to say somebody is responsible The politicians on the Hill, especially the skeptical ones and even some of those who support Amtrak, want answers to that, want to know who’s responsible – accountability?
GUNN: What I’ll do is, I can commit to what we will have from this point forward. These people were all here during the last two to three years. This whole business of the glidepath, I have said, was a situation where the Congress created an absolutely impossible goal with the corporation, and the management pretended they could accomplish it. Now, who’s at fault – Congress, the management, or both of them? If you create crazy incentives through law and then people respond to the incentives and try to accomplish the law, who’s at fault? Is it the Congress? Is it the people? Look, if it had been me, I would have blown the whistle a long time ago and I would have just said, “It’s over.” I would have been much blunter about the nature of the problem. It’s like what I’m doing with the overhaul program. I’m not going to fool around. I have to rebuild cars. You asked, do I have the money, and I’m telling you no, not yet, but I think I’m going to get it, but if I wait until I get it, it’s too late. I won’t be able to spend it. I won’t know until December whether I get $1.2 billion. So what am I going to do? Sit on my thumbs until December? When I don’t have enough cars?
VERNON: (chuckle) In the middle of the night, 2 a.m. December 24th something happens.
GUNN: Yeah, if we waited until December, what would happen to us is we wouldn’t be rebuilding cars until next spring.
VERNON: Getting on another subject here, your relationship with the unions. You’ve had a reputation as being a tough cookie at the bargaining table. You’re talking about cutting back, or at least running a lean operation. United Transportation Union’s lobbyist, Jim “Broken Rail” Brunkenhoefer said a day or two before you took office, “don’t look to labor rolling over and playing dead to any ideas of reviving Amtrak on the backs of its labor force.” You see room for reductions in labor costs?
GUNN: Well, wait a minute; you’re mixing up two things. I agree with him that labor is not the problem per se with Amtrak; we have no disagreement on that. Our wage rates our competitive, in fact they’re better than the freight railroads, so I mean...
VERNON: You mean conductors on Amtrak get more than the freight?
GUNN: No, no, no – we get less. We’re more productive.
VERNON: I see. That’s one of their other complaints, by the way, the fact that their wages are less than the freight.
GUNN: No, no, no; their take-home is competitive. What I’m saying is, our workforce is fairly compensated, that’s really what I’m telling you. I’m not going to argue that they’re the problem. We have some productivity problems internally based upon work rules. That’s a little piece of the problem. We have a management structure which was bloated and out of control. These experiments they had around here with strategic business units and all of that stuff? All that did was confuse authority and responsibility, accountability, and add people you didn’t need to run the railroads. Having said that, we also have some organizational structures.
VERNON: These VPs that you cut back on, what is it, 60 –80, something like that?
GUNN: We had 84 people, I believe, with the title of vice president, assistant vice president, executive vice president, senior vice president, etc. When I’m done, we’ll be down to less than 20 people – 12 or 14 who actually have “vice-president” in their title, and there will be three or four other people of that rank like chief operating officer, chief financial officer, and general counsel.
VERNON: Okay, well, how many of those people actually got pink slips – in the past some of them were just shuffled around a little bit.
GUNN: It’s gone in terms of the number of people who are actually going to lose their jobs – some have left and we are in the process of notifying people whose jobs have been abolished and so forth. I don’t want to get too specific until that gets out, but there’s no question that on the issue of productivity we have got to be tough on all levels of this company. You can’t solve the problem just by canning a few VPs. We will be tough on the management and other levels, supervision and hourly. For example, we’re in the process of downsizing our telephone reservations system because the number of tickets sold by human with a telephone call is dropping as we shift to the internet.
VERNON: Automated machines?
GUNN: “Automated machines, so if the call volume drops, I need to reduce my coverage.
VERNON: Now you were saying a minute ago that labor was not part of the problem, obviously it isn’t because...
GUNN: No, what I said was labor is – you have to be careful of sweeping statements – I’m not solving my problem on the back of labor, that’s true, but there are areas we want to improve productivity, and that’s between our unions and us, but it’s not a sweeping thing. We have some issues of work rules and manning issues that we think we could make changes that would make sense and would save us some money.
VERNON: Let me say this. I use your long-distance service something like three, four times a year. I’ve seen dining cars filled to the brim with hungry people – and two dining car attendants to handle that whole crowd. Obviously you can only go so far. That raises the question maybe you’re going to cut back on the service, maybe not having dining cars on these trains?
GUNN: No, no, no. The last people you want to impact are the people who are actually serving the public and doing useful work, but we have areas where you can look at the way they were (structured). With this strategic business unit, you had a lot of duplication in terms of overhead function. That can be eliminated. I think we’ve had areas where we had too much supervision, we’ve had areas where we’ve had too little supervision, so it’s hard and I shouldn’t make a sweeping statement.
You had over a 100 people doing planning, and I’ve never seen such a mess in my life. I mean, everybody is running off in every direction. When you have a meeting, there were 10 people in the meeting, nobody ever made any decisions, nobody was in charge, and everybody had an opinion. We’re dropping that back to less than 40 actual planning people. It will be a tight function; there will be people who have a responsibility for specific areas – that’s it!
VERNON: Are any routes going to go?
GUNN: No, I’ve said no, unless we totally run out of equipment.
VERNON: Of course, that’s a possibility too.
GUNN: Nah, we’ll get some equipment. Once we get the shops going, we’ll be able to begin to get the stuff back.
VERNON: There are some people, including some politicians on the Hill, mainly those who are critical of Amtrak, and some who live in crowded corridors who want their service but say that the long distance trains are losing too much money, their too much of a drag.
GUNN: Now wait – the long distance trains are a red herring. If you look at Amtrak as a whole, commuter services are supposed to be self-sufficient. In other words, we get paid what we cost. Then you have the intercity, the long distance trains. Then you have the corridor, shorter haul type trains – they all lose money! Not the commuter, but the long distance and the short haul.
The Northeast corridor does not make money. It’s an absolute fantasy and in some sense it was perpetuated by this glidepath, where people were “Oh, we’re going to be making money and we’ll get the Acelas and we’ll make...” It’s not true. The Northeast Corridor barely breaks even on above the rail costs, and it requires enormous amounts of capital. I mean, hundreds of millions of dollars just to keep running. The idea that getting rid of the long-haul trains leaves you with a profitable core is not true. The long-distance trains probably lose about $300 million a year incrementally. Okay, you get rid of them, [but] you’ve still got an enormous deficit – plus you need hundreds of millions of dollars of capital. Use the $1.2 billion – these are all rough numbers – but if I say I need $1.2 billion and everyone says get rid of the long haul trains, okay, now I need $900 million.
VERNON: Okay. Well, let’s look at it.
GUNN: That’s the way the numbers work.
VERNON: Let’s look at it from the other end of the telescope. Sen. Patty Murray, who heads the Transportation Appropriation Subcommittee, thinks the Northeast Corridor gets too much at the expense of (others); her state has to pay out to have the kind of service... (for service the Northeast Corridor gets for nothing).
GUNN: She is absolutely correct, there is a great inequity in terms of the funding of services. New York State gets a free ride, relatively speaking. Her state pays the incremental deficit plus contributes to the capital – she’s right, but I’ll go back to my analogy of the human being needing 2,000 calories and is only getting 1,500 but you don’t solve the problem by moving the 1,500 calories around. You’ve got to get the funding up to the point where you have enough money to deal with all of your problems.
Now I don’t really care, I mean I care, but it’s not a priority whether it’s federal money or state money. What I need is enough money to run the services and maintain the plant and equipment. In the reauthorization process, I believe that a lot of people are coming to the conclusion that we need a transit-type solution. I don’t know if you’re familiar with how transit is funded, but it works. There is a set match for capital, 20 percent local, and 80 percent federal. That’s it. You want to build a bus garage in Keokuk, Iowa you come in with your 20 percent, and they’ll match it, and give you the money to build the bus garage.
VERNON: So you think that the future of Amtrak is there’s going to be more state input, in other words.
GUNN: Absolutely, absolutely.
VERNON: Okay...Pennsylvania, New York, Maryland are going to have to kick in money, they’re not used to that.
GUNN: Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. The problem you got here is that if everything is federally funded, there’s no basis for allocating the resources. Every politician wants to get his or her share of the barrel, you know? What’s in the barrel? There’s no way of allocating it. You have the money (but) nothing gets produced that is a real victory for rail. If you want to see rail service survive and see high-speed corridors begin to grow around the country, you must focus your attention on the real ones.
You know somebody who wants a high-speed corridor between Telluride and Durango for example. The way this works is, if it’s all federal money, then it comes down to the clout of the politician over here whether they control the appropriations. It isn’t based upon transportation need and so forth. What you’ve got to do is, you’ve got to have a system where, if somebody wants a corridor, they’ve got to put up earnest money – and states are willing to do this
I would submit for example, if New York State wants to really beef up the Empire Service, then in the future, we’re going to be in a situation where you say fine, this is the deficit. (This business) where you have federal money running a deficit operation in Maine or wherever with no state input, you’ll never have enough money to meet the demand because this is an expensive business, and if you don’t allocate your capital and your operating subsidies to markets where you have a real shot at winning the hearts and minds of the passengers and running a good service that really makes a difference like the Northeast Corridor, or the San Diegans, like the trains in California. If you don’t have the locals having to put in some money, it’s never going to work because you’ll have the powerful political structure over here. You know, all politics is local... Try to force and beat the money into local projects.
VERNON: That’s the philosophy behind (House Transportation Chairman) Don Young’s bill, more or less; get more state input in to this.
GUNN: But I think everybody is sort of coming to this conclusion that it should be a fair process. Now, in the case of the Northeast Corridor, and the states that get served by the Northeast Corridor, their operating subsidy will be less than a high-speed corridor in the Midwest because that’s the way the numbers come out.
VERNON: There’s a more density of ridership.
GUNN: That’s right, that’s right, but (as to) the capital, we’re going through this in the state of New York. They built this new station in Rensselaer and now they’re trying to fund it, which they should have thought of before they built it, and now they’re trying to put pressure on us to fund it. How can I fund that? How can I put federal money into funding a local thing there when I’m asking Patty Murray or her state to kick in top dollar? It doesn’t work.
VERNON: The Acela. You’ve got these sleek trains capable of doing 150 mph, but they only do it for 18 miles (on the whole trip) from Boston to Washington. You think that’s putting the cart before the horse? They should have re-electrified the NEC south of New York first?
GUNN: We need new equipment. (With) the Acela you’ve got to separate the concept of a high-speed train from what we did, unfortunately. We’re having a lot of trouble with the Acelas, I don’t know if you’re aware of that.
VERNON: In what respect?
GUNN: Reliability and availability.
VERNON: I know about availability...
GUNN: ...and reliability, they’re much less reliable than an AEM-7 [4,000HP electric locomotive].
VERNON: Of course, you’ve already sued Bombardier.
GUNN: No, forget the lawsuits. I don’t even want to talk about lawsuits. Look, Bombardier built the cars, they engineered the cars and they maintain the cars, and we’re having a lot of trouble with those cars and they’re very expensive; but should we have bought high-speed? We need more equipment. Did we do the right thing there? Time will tell, but I think that clearly this company, if you read the press clips from about a year ago... They were acting as if this were going to be the salvation of Amtrak. It won’t – it’s only a hundred cars in a corridor.
I don’t understand why people didn’t challenge them on that a long time ago. But we need equipment we’re short of equipment. We need high-speed trains. Clearly, the only way you’re going to get to really high-speed service is the way we’re funded and the way we’re proceeding incrementally. For example, the catenary on the south side (of Baltimore).
You don’t have to go rush out and do constant tension everywhere. You don’t have to do that because if the catenary is the constraint in some areas, well then, you only need constant tension where you can run fast. You don’t need constant tension in the Baltimore tunnels because you’re not going to run fast in the Baltimore tunnels. You don’t need it coming into Baltimore, you don’t – and the reason I’m saying this is that it’s probably more expensive to maintain the constant tension than to maintain what we’ve got. So, you have to be smart where you spend your money.
The first thing is to get the existing system back to where it’s in good shape, and then you start making incremental improvements to pick up five minutes here, 10 minutes there. People tend to view this thing like we made a big mistake, and if we had put the money here instead of there everything would be okay. Life isn’t that simple.
VERNON: All right, let’s say, just for the moment, hypothetically David Gunn is not just CEO of Amtrak, he’s dictator of it. He has a vision for what he wants the system to look like. What would it look like?
GUNN: Well, I mean, obviously in the case of the Northeast Corridor, you want to get to the point where you have the ability to run from here (Washington) to Boston in less time than you do now because that’s a real market. Between New York and Washington, we’re pretty dominant, but my view of Amtrak is incremental. My first view is that we have the existing plant and equipment, long distance trains, and everything. The trains are well maintained, they’re clean, they function, the toilets flush, the air conditioning works and we have enough so that we’re not screwing around like we are now with the Capital Limited.
In the case of the Northeast Corridor, the track is in good condition, the interlockings have all been rebuilt, maybe the “cat” poles have all been repainted and the wire is in good working order. That’s the first goal, which is going to take some time.
The next thing I would like to see happen is I’d like to see a corridor success outside of California or the Northeast. I mean, I would really like to see some corridor, whether it’s Midwest around Chicago, you pick...
VERNON: High speed?
GUNN: Yeah, 100 – 110 mph. You have to approach this thing in a realistic incremental fashion. I’d like to see some corridors - This idea that you’re going to have Tokaido (Japanese bullet trains) lines all over the United States isn’t going to happen. We must have some victories out there where we prove what we can do in terms of well thought-out and reliable. Do you remember the way they did the Lindenwold line? (A New Jersey Transit commuter line between Philadelphia and South Jersey).
VERNON: Oh yeah, that was a local effort.
GUNN: Yeah, and they did everything in a very workmanlike, logical fashion. They went to automatic train operation real early, they did automatic fare collection, but it was all done very methodically and it wasn’t one of these great leaps forward where they bring in all the consultants and they run around and promise everybody, well, like the Acela.
You over-commit and the whole thing just sort of flops.
You need a situation where you take a corridor and it is planned on an engineering basis, both for the cars and the track. It’s done based upon the available, proven technology, and one of the things that’s missing in this country is the railroad supply industry has collapsed. There is no railroad supply industry.
VERNON: You have to go to Alstom and Bombardier.
GUNN: Well Bombardier is North American. You have to go to Europe or the Orient...
VERNON: The Budd Company went out of the railroad business a long time ago.
GUNN: What’s happened is like they race around and they’re going to build a corridor, and then what happens is if you don’t have strong operating management on the part of Amtrak or whoever is going to do this, the big thing ends up, “Where are you going to build the cars?” (Some Congressman says) “Build it in my District,” and then suddenly you find yourself setting up car building – which is a very chancy business to start with in the U.S., and they’re setting it up in these abandoned factories with a put-together work force. It’s like rebuilding the Turboliners in New York.
VERNON: When you ran the Metro system here in Washington, you got to the point where the Metro board, appointed by area politicians, tried to micromanage what you were doing – at least you certainly indicated as much. Now you don’t need this job, you don’t need the money you’re getting from Amtrak. What would it take for you to say, “That’s it guys, I’m out of here, I don’t need this.” What will it take to tick you off and send you back to the serenity of Nova Scotia?”
GUNN: I never look at a job that way. Not this job, this job is one where I’m going to be like Sewell Avery. You remember that story?
They carried him out in his chair. So I’m going to do the right thing so if they don’t like it they’re going to act, not me.
VERNON: You’re happy in your job, you like it?
GUNN: Well, yeah.
VERNON: It’s a challenge for you
GUNN: There are days when I get a little depressed, but basically I like it. Yeah. Yeah.
GUNN: That’s right, that’s right, but (as to) the capital, we’re going through this in the state of New York. They built this new station in Rensselaer and now they’re trying to fund it, which they should have thought of before they built it, and now they’re trying to put pressure on us to fund it. How can I fund that? How can I put federal money into funding a local thing there when I’m asking Patty Murray or her state to kick in top dollar? It doesn’t work.
I'm in love. :)
WASHINGTON July 31 – Amtrak President David Gunn says it is imperative that Amtrak begin “mobilizing and rebuilding cars” that are out of service. On the job for only 2-_ months, the CEO told D:F last week 105 passenger cars are sitting idle in Beech Grove’s yard because of derailments or other accidents. The situation is so critical he is not waiting for Congress to cough up the money.
He also wants to set up a system whereby the states pony up more of the money for Amtrak service they receive. That includes Northeast Corridor states that are used to getting service while paying little or no money into the costs of running the trains – other than what they pay for running commuter trains on Amtrak’s rights-of-way.
In a wide-ranging interview with D:F, Gunn is:
Reconsidering Amtrak’s Express service, which he believes, is not paying enough to make it worth its trouble.
Says he found Amtrak’s bookkeeping and organizational structure “a mess.” He’s putting a professional CPA in charge.
Believes the Bush Administration is divided on what to do about Amtrak, and claims Amtrak has friends within the administration and the White House, even though White House Budget Director Mitch Daniels wants to “get rid of us.”
Says Congress created an “impossible situation” by demanding “self-sufficiency” by 2002, and says previous management should have “blown the whistle” on it.
Promises to look for work rules and “manning” changes, but also adds he won’t revive Amtrak on the backs of rail labor.
Argued Amtrak should set its sights on realistic goals, think in “incremental” terms, with less overblown hype.
Says politicians should be realistic as to what is best for a credible passenger train network
Says long-distance trains are not the problem, and that more corridors are needed, albeit on an incremental basis.
The number-one problem right now, the Amtrak boss said, is getting cars repaired so that trains can be equipped. The need is so critical that he does not intend to wait for Congress to decide how the lawmakers want to keep Amtrak in business.
“I’m not going to fool around. I have to rebuild cars,” he said.
“You asked, ‘do I have the money,’ and I’m telling you no, not yet, but I think I’m going to get it – but if I wait until I get it, it’s too late. I won’t be able to spend it.”
If Congress doesn’t give Amtrak enough money, “it doesn’t matter, because “we’ll just go out of business with our shops up and running.”
“So what am I supposed to do? Sit on my thumbs until December? When I don’t have enough cars?”
On the day of D:F’s exclusive Gunn interview (Wednesday, July 31), the National Association of Railroad Passengers was issuing a bulletin to its members saying that on that day, the westbound Capitol Limited (its Superliner equipment had been badly damaged two days earlier in Kensington, Maryland), was a single-level operation, including a Heritage dorm, two Viewliner sleepers, Heritage diner, Amfleet lounge, three Amfleet II long-distance cars, and two Acela Regional coach class cars.
Gunn told us he looks forward to the day when the trains are not only well-maintained and clean, but “we have enough so that we’re not screwing around like we are now with the Capitol Limited.”
The comprehensive pro-passenger train bill by Sen. Ernest “Fritz” Hollings (D-S.C.) to rebuild and expand Amtrak “has a lot to be said for it,” but that “you don’t bet the ranch on that one thing.” Its possible failure to pass Congress, despite a 20-3 approval in Hollings’ committee, would not, in and of itself, spell doom for Amtrak.
The veteran railroader – in both the private and public sectors – announced he would soon ask the Amtrak board to approve Deno Bokas, a professional certified public accountant, as chief financial officer. He is “a very straightforward, no nonsense financial controller type of person,” Gunn assured us, “The books will reflect reality.”
When asked to name names as to who was responsible for the “mess” he inherited, Gunn said Congress had “created an absolutely impossible goal with the corporation” with the mandated “glidepath” and “the management [predecessor George Warrington] pretended they could accomplish it.” (Self-sufficiency by late 2002).
“Look, if it had been me, I would have blown the whistle a long time ago,” the current Amtrak president declared.
The management structure which he inherited “was bloated and out of control,” he charged.
“These experiments they had around here with strategic business units and all that stuff – all that did was confuse authority and responsibility, accountability, and add people you didn’t need to run the railroad.”
Amplifying on that, Gunn said, “You had over 100 people doing planning and I’ve never seen such a mess in my life. I mean, everybody is running off in every direction. When you have a meeting, there were ten people in the meeting, nobody was in charge, and everybody had an opinion. We’re dropping that back to less than 40 actual planning people who have a responsibility for specific areas. That’s it!”
Gunn said Amtrak is having availability and reliability problems with the Acela Express trains on the Northeast corridor. He proclaimed them less reliable than the AEM-7 “Swedish Meatball” electrics that have plied the NEC for more than 20 years.
Citing press clips from last year when the Acelas entered service, the Amtrak president said previous management was “acting as if this were going to be the salvation of Amtrak. It won’t. It’s only a hundred cars on a corridor. I don’t understand why people didn’t challenge them on that a long time ago.”
The only way we’re going to get high-speed trains (which he says we need) is “the way we’re funded and the way we’re proceeding incrementally.”
As to “the way we’re funded,” Gunn, who has managed several major big-city transit systems, called for “a transit solution,” whereby the feds fund rail needs in a given area, with a certain percentage of matching money from the states.
“What you have got to do is you’ve got to have a system where if somebody wants a corridor, they’ve got to put up earnest money, and states are willing to do this. I would submit, for example, if New York State wants a corridor, they’ve got to put up some money, rather than a system where the trains go where “the powerful political structure” is, and powerful political figures “try to force and beat the money into local projects” regardless of need.
Gunn said Senate Transportation Appropriations subcommittee Chairwoman Patty Murray (D-Wash.) is “absolutely correct” in saying there’s an inequity in the way Amtrak routes are funded, with the northeast getting a relatively free ride while her state pays “top dollar” to get serious corridor service.
Realism apparently will be one very important watchword in the Gunn era at Amtrak. His vision is for an efficient system with trains operating well, meeting real needs without “all the consultants...run[ning] around and promis[ing] everybody, well, like the Acela...and you over commit and the whole thing just sort of flops.”
As for a start in the direction of more corridor service, Gunn said he “would like to see a corridor success outside of California or the Northeast, whether it’s the Midwest around Chicago – you pick.”
Gunn who likes his job even though on some days he gets “a little depressed,” says, “This job is one where I’m going to do the right thing so if they don’t like it, they’re going to have to act, not me.”
He cited the famed Sewell Avery, the CEO who was physically carried out in his chair when he did not want to go.
(Gunn said Senate Transportation Appropriations subcommittee Chairwoman Patty Murray (D-Wash.) is “absolutely correct” in
saying there’s an inequity in the way Amtrak routes are funded, with the northeast getting a relatively free ride while her state
pays “top dollar” to get serious corridor service. )
Those from outside the Northeast have a habit of ignoring the big picture when it comes to rail and roads. I just whipped out my copy of the 2001 Statistical Abstract of the United States, table 1080. In 2000, the State of Washington received $108.70 per person in federal road & transit funding. New York State got $99.80, which is pretty good for us. The national average was $102.3.
How did we do on taxes? When, the Northeast pays much more per capita than average in federal taxes. Washington's per capita tax burden was $7,326. New York's was $7,911, even though New York's poverty rate was much higher.
Ah, but Amtrak is something the Northeast does get, to an extent. So the corridor must cover its operating costs, with surplus shifted elsewhere. Like the subway.
Those from outside the Northeast have a habit of ignoring the big picture when it comes to rail and roads. I just whipped out my copy of the 2001 Statistical Abstract of the United States...
You think you're real clever and you think that with such aggregate statistics you can prove that you're getting screwed over. The truth is that if such things really bothered you, you'd have moved over to Washington State. Go fuck off over there. The Northeast doesn't need whiners like you. Neither does Ohio. You don't like the truth, do you?
The reality is that the economics of the U.S. is much more complicated than what you have just outlined. For instance, some of that funding that went into Washington State would have gone into building Interstates that carry Apples into New York City for less. If the interstates weren't there, your apples would cost 3 times more and you would have even worse level of poverty in New York City. It's called Interstate Commerce. It's why railroads were created. Just because you don't live there, it doesn't mean that you don't use the infrastructure out there. If you want to go grow apple in your own backyard, go right ahead -- there's a place where everyone does that. It's called England.
AEM7
"You think you're real clever and you think that with such aggregate statistics you can prove that you're getting screwed over."
He did prove it. The interstate highway system is valuable to all 50 states, but that doesn't justify the disparity in spending.
Look at the superhighway being built in West Virginia. It's supposed to link to Virginia's road system, but Virginia doesn'
t want it. The only reason for that road is because Congress had to throw some pork in Robert Byrd's direction, and they couldn't think of any other project. That road is worthless to interstate commerce.
"The truth is that if such things really bothered you, you'd have moved over to Washington State. Go fuck off over there."
Why don't you do that? You seem to like road-building in Washington more than he does.
"The Northeast doesn't need whiners like you. Neither does Ohio. You don't like the truth, do you?"
You're right - you're a much better whiner than he is. :0)
Why don't you do that? You seem to like road-building in Washington more than he does.
I hate it in the Northeast. I was pulled into this lobsided mess just because the academic institution that I happen to need a degree from happens to be over here in the Northeast. Soon as I get a chance, I'd be packing my pickup for Texas...
AEM7
it is still a wash, New York apple farming ranks among the top in the nation so it is not necessarily good for New Yorkers. We DO grow apples in our backyard.
"I hate it in the Northeast. I was pulled into this lobsided mess just because the academic institution that I happen to need a degree from happens to be over here in the Northeast."
Don't offer BS excuses like that. The last time I checked, the Stanford offered everything MIT does, as does the University of California. Oregon State's math and computer science departments are strong; if I am not mistaken, Microsoft has been financially supporting the University of Washington.
Texas A@M is a damn good school in the sciences and math, and you could have done what you wanted to do right in your home state.
So if you are "suffering" at MIT, it's entirely your doing, not Massachusetts'...
Don't offer BS excuses like that. The last time I checked, the Stanford offered everything MIT does, as does the University of California. Oregon State's math and computer science departments are strong...
Alrighty, let's say that before I moved to Boston, there was a lapse of judgment on my part and I didn't exactly realize what I was in for. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the school, and I enjoy the place more than I enjoyed the last place I was at, but it's still annoying to hear people bitch about underinvestment in the Northeast. It's simply not true. Investment in the Northeast simply takes a different form to investment in California and investment in rural states like the Dakotas.
In the Northeast, most of the money that goes into the economy is private capital, because investor seems to think stuff makes money here. The reason stuff makes money here, of course, is because there is an infrastructure here. The infrastructure is here because Federal investment in the last century has concentrated in the Northeast! In California, the State has been kicking in a lot of money because the Feds didn't want to pay up. So if anyone has a boo-hoo story it's the Californians. The rural states would get screwed over in about a hundred years' time, when they are developed and the Northeast is going through depression, and Feds would be channeling $ over to the Northeast while screwing the by-then economically strong Northwest and Southwest.
AEM7
I'm sorry, but your story doesn't maeke a lot of sense.
How much infrastructure would you like to see in North Dakota? Enough to pave over the wheat, corn and soybean fields? Enough to get rid of the cattle ranches? NY handles banking, because it can't handle growing wheat. That's OK.
The military has invested more in North Dakota than it has in New York, historically. I'm not complaining.
Grand Forks and Minot Air Force Bases were (still are) the lynchpin of our nuclear deterrent, with silo upon silo of Minuteman III ICBMs, along with the servicemen and servicewomen who keep them ready.
I don't mind a redirection of investment to farmers and ranchers who feed the rest of us. But the mindless construction of roads and destruction of environment (yes, the same environment that feeds all of us!) makes no sense.
and investment in rural states like the Dakotas.
Youall want some BULL.... we got BULL for sale....
We even got some BULL-BY-PRODUCTS that you can spread in your garden,
or on the internet if you are so inclined....
PHFBTftftftftftftftttttttt.......
"The interstate highway system is valuable to all 50 states"
Alaska doesnt have any interstates...
True. And they haven't started building the viaduct carrying traffic from the Hawaiian Islands to California...
actually hawaii has 3 interstate routes on Oahu(H1,H2,H3), H3 IMO is the most interesting of all roads worldwide that i have seen
actually hawaii has 3 interstate routes on Oahu
*interstates* On Hawaii? sounds like an oxymoron.
An *Intrastate* Yes, I'd beleive *that*
Elias
*interstates* On Hawaii? sounds like an oxymoron.
An *Intrastate* Yes, I'd beleive *that*
H-1, H-2 and H-3 technically are part of the Interstate system.
There are several other Interstates that run solely within the borders of a single state, such as I-4 in Florida, though of course they connect with other Interstates (I-99 in Pennsylvania currently connects with nothing else, but eventually will connect with I-80.)
The only reason for that road is because Congress had to throw some pork in Robert Byrd's direction,
Unfortunatly, it is true, sometimes to get things you want, you gotta do something that someone else wants.
You want
Hew! Wait a minuite, West Virgina *doesn't* have anything I wnat....
'cept of course, that Congresscritter's vote....
Elias
Those from outside the Northeast have a habit of ignoring the big picture when it comes to rail and roads. I just whipped out my copy of the 2001 Statistical Abstract of the United States, table 1080. In 2000, the State of Washington received $108.70 per person in federal road & transit funding. New York State got $99.80, which is pretty good for us. The national average was $102.3.
Washington's higher per capita transit funding might be explained by the fact that the Seattle-area Sounder commuter rail system is growing. New York may have a far more extensive rail transit system, but other than AirTrain (funding for which probably isn't included in the calculations) it's not in a growth mode.
How did we do on taxes? When, the Northeast pays much more per capita than average in federal taxes. Washington's per capita tax burden was $7,326. New York's was $7,911, even though New York's poverty rate was much higher.
Which probably can be explained by New York's higher per capita income. New York has more poor people, but it has more wealthy people too, even with the Microsoft millionaires in the Evergreen State.
"Washington's higher per capita transit funding might be explained by the fact that the Seattle-area Sounder commuter rail system is growing. New York may have a far more extensive rail transit system, but other than AirTrain (funding for which probably isn't included in the calculations) it's not in a growth mode."
Don't forget relative population density too.
You are correct about the growth mode. AirTrain derives funding solely from airport transfer fees; East Side Access is under construction but the value of contracts there now is only about $170 million this fiscal year.
One fifth of $17.1 billion (MTA 5 year Capital Plan) is a little over than $3.4 billion. Now divide that by what, 20 million people in the area?
Two P-42DC locomotives led No. 30, the Capitol Limited, when it derailed last Monday. Both engines, Nos. 154 and 74, remained upright.
The locomotives were followed by baggage car 1750, transition sleeper 39029, sleepers 32046 and 32096, diner 38023, lounge 33045, coach-smoker 31537, coaches 34018 and 34053, material handling cars (MHC) 1521 and 1556, and baggage-mail car 1714, which was added to the train in Toledo, as was MHC 1453.
Cars 1401 and 70005, which had left Chicago behind the 1556, were switched out at Toledo.
Both locomotives moved under their own power to Ivy City Yard on Tuesday, towing four cars that did not derail.
All the derailed cars were eventually towed to Ivy City for assessment. Three cars were reported to be unrepairable – the diner, lounge and a coach, which Amtrak said, were badly damaged – enough to be scrapped.
Amtrak crews worked through the night to clear the scene. Eight of the derailed passenger cars were rerailed early Tuesday morning.
Capitol Limited service between Washington, D.C. and Chicago was affected by the derailment. Passengers were being bused in both directions between Washington and Pittsburgh, with train service available between Pittsburgh and Chicago.
Meanwhile, a northern New England freight railroad is using the derailment as an excuse to stop Downeaster trains from going any faster than the current 60 mph between Haverhill, Mass., and Portland over its tracks.
Both last week’s derailment in Maryland and another derailment on April 18 in Florida are suspected to have been caused by track structure problems, said David Fink, executive vice president of Guilford Rail System, which owns 77 miles of track between Portland and Plaistow, N.H., according to the Boston Globe.
“The most recent Amtrak derailments show that Guilford is correct in calling for slower speeds on the Boston to Portland service,” he said.
“We have a duty to ensure to the traveling public that operations over Guilford’s lines are safe.”
The Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority, which wants the Downeaster to operate at speeds up to 79 mph, is paying attention to the accident investigations but does not believe there is any direct relationship to the Downeaster, said Michael Murray, the agency’s executive director.
The rail authority’s petition to operate at the higher speed is currently pending before the U.S. Surface Transportation Board.
Amtrak, the rail authority and the Federal Railroad Administration all maintain that passenger trains across the country operate safely on the same 115-pound rail used in the $50 million track overhaul.
“The bottom line is there’s nothing inherently unsafe about running trains at higher speeds,” as long as the tracks are properly maintained, said Warren Flatau, spokesman for the FRA in Washington.
Supporters of the Downeaster say the faster speed is important to make the train competitive with buses and cars. The higher speed would shave 15 minutes off the Portland-to-Boston trip.
Because of Maine’s northerly location, temperatures seldom reach into the 90s. For example, on Friday at 4:39 p.m., the coastal high temperature was expected to range between 79 and 84, and inland, the range was from 82 to 88.
The Destination Freedom version.
Amtrak president and CEO David Gunn said “No, thanks” to the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority’s call for bids to run commuter rail for the Bay State.
In a letter to the MBTA’s general manager, Michael Mulhern, Gunn wrote, “The provisions contained in the request for proposal (RFP) would radically alter the contractual relationship that exists under your current operating agreement with us, and make it impossible to develop a reasonable pricing strategy to control risk.”
Amtrak has operated commuter rail for the T after outbidding Guilford Transportation of Billerica, Mass., 15 years ago.
Gunn added, “Amtrak is prohibited by law from subsidizing commuter services, and we could be in real danger of violating that prohibition under the term of your proposal.”
He said Amtrak “does not have the flexibility or financial resources to gamble of a five- or ten-year fixed price contract.”
The T is asking for a five-year contract with an option for five more years with no rate increase. No dollar figure was contained in the letter, but most objections revolved around funding, including dropping incentives for on-time and other performance factors. Gunn said Amtrak earns $130,000 monthly in incentives under the current contract.
Gunn offered to operate, dispatch and maintain the Attleboro line from South Station in Boston to the Rhode Island line, where Amtrak’s right-of-way ownership begins and continues to New Haven, Conn. The entire line from Boston to New Haven was electrified two years ago solely for Amtrak trains, including the Acela Express.
He said Gil Mallery is the sole contact at Amtrak for any discussions. Mallery is acting vice-president for planning and business development.
If the T does not offer a counter-proposal, Amtrak will end its most lucrative commuter rail contract in the nation by next June 30, handing the tracks and some 1,600 unionized workers to one of three companies positioned to bid on the estimated $150 million-a-year, five-year deal, according to the Boston Globe.
Mulhern said he respects Amtrak’s decision, but insisted he has no intention of changing the bid specifications to suit Amtrak.
“We are trying to construct a very good RFP that clearly outlines accountability to the taxpayers, but also ensures robust competition,” Mulhern said. “We’ve got three firms left, so I think we’re in good shape.
In 1987, when Amtrak took over for the Boston & Maine railroad, B&M dispatchers who still controlled freight lines refused to allow commuter trains to pass over the lines, causing some chaos for North Shore commuters. A Superior Court judge eventually ordered B&M dispatchers to allow the commuter trains through.
Amtrak spokeswoman Cecelia Cummings said, from Philadelphia, Amtrak would work hard to make the transition smooth. “It doesn’t serve anyone’s interest to thwart MBTA’s attempts to find another willing contractor,” she said. “It’s not something we will engage in.”
http://www.cbbgreenbush.com/default.htm
Here is the project description:
This project is to be delivered to the MBTA under a Design-Build Contract basis, and requires the CBB Team to furnish a complete design of the project, to construct the project as designed and to comply with the requirements of the Design-Build Contract. The MBTA provided a conceptual design (approximately 15%) of the project to CBB as part of the RFP process. The MBTA has also initiated the environmental permitting process, which is to be finalized by the D-B Contractor as design progresses.
The project will restore commuter rail service on the existing right-of-way known as the Greenbush corridor through the towns of Braintree, Weymouth, Hingham, Cohasset and Scituate, Massachusetts. The project begins at the connection with the existing MBTA Old Colony Main Line at the Braintree Wye in East Braintree, and extends 18 miles easterly along the former New Haven Railroad Greenbush Branch to the terminus in the Greenbush section of Scituate. The project involves the reconstruction of existing, largely out-of-service railroad right-of-way as a single-track railroad with four controlled passing sidings of approximately 1 mile in length each. Once completed, the facility will be equipped with a new signal and communications system and end-of-the-line train layover facility. In addition, certain freight facilities in Braintree will be relocated off-line.
The right-of-way is currently active for local freight service on the first 1.5 miles in East Braintree. The remainder of the right-of-way is either out of service or abandoned. The proposed commuter rail service will provide twelve (12) round trips between Boston-South Station and Greenbush each weekday and eight (8) round trips on weekends. Scheduled peak-direction one-way trip time between South Station and Greenbush, including a stop at Quincy Center, will be 59 minutes.
Seven new commuter rail stations will be constructed along the right-of-way, each with an 800-foot long high-level platform. New commuter parking lots at the stations ranging in size from 200 to 1000 spaces each will provide a total of approximately 3000 spaces along the corridor. Stations will be similar to those constructed on the other Old Colony lines and will include accommodations for bicycle parking and passenger drop-off/pick-up by automobile, van, or bus.
Nine existing single span railroad bridges will be reconstructed with new ballast deck superstructures and new or rehabilitated abutments and wing-walls. Work will be performed on two existing roadway bridges over the right-of-way: one (1) bridge will be replaced in its entirety and the other will be repaired. Four (4) new grade separations will be constructed: at Weymouth Landing (shallow cut tunnel); Green Street (new railroad bridge over lowered roadway); Hingham Square (underpass with 800 foot long cut and cover tunnel crossing under three (3) roadways); and Rocky Lane (new highway bridge on new roadway alignment crossing over the right-of-way).
Of the forty-three (43) existing roadway grade crossings on the right-of-way, ten (10) will be closed and eight (8) eliminated by grade separations. The remaining twenty-five (25) crossings, plus one (1) new roadway crossing and three (3) pedestrian crossings, will be reconstructed with new grade crossing warning systems and supplemental safety measures in accordance with the Swift Act. The entire facility will be designated as a quiet zone (no routine use of train whistles at crossings). Intersection improvements will be made at locations immediately adjacent to the railroad and station entrances and at seven (7) remote locations. At one (1) location on Route 3A in Scituate, an existing signalized intersection will be replaced with a combination of traffic signals and a roundabout. New or modified traffic signals will be installed at a total of nineteen (19) locations.
The project includes extensive mitigation measures to address noise, vibration, historic, wetland, and other impacts. Noise barriers will be constructed at six (6) locations, vibration-dampening ballast mats will be installed under a total of 3.5 miles of track, and screen plantings will be installed along 6 miles of right of sidelines. Fencing, consisting of chain link, security, black chain link, solid wood, or steel picket, depending on location, will be provided along virtually the entire length of the right-of-way. Mitigation agreements have been reached with two (2) of the five (5) Towns detailing specific mitigation items to be provided. In accordance with the Section 106 Agreement Resource Consultations, a Project Conservator will monitor the project to ensure that historic properties are protected and mitigated as agreed. An Independent Observer will monitor the Project to ensure that wetlands are protected and mitigated in accordance with certain environmental approvals. Additional mitigation measures, such as noise abatement of individual homes, will be performed by the MBTA independent of the D-B Contract.
(Gunn said Senate Transportation Appropriations subcommittee Chairwoman Patty Murray (D-Wash.) is “absolutely correct” in
saying there’s an inequity in the way Amtrak routes are funded, with the northeast getting a relatively free ride while her state
pays “top dollar” to get serious corridor service. )
Those from outside the Northeast have a habit of ignoring the big picture when it comes to rail and roads. I just whipped out my copy of the 2001 Statistical Abstract of the United States, table 1080. In 2000, the State of Washington received $108.70 per person in federal road & transit funding. New York State got $99.80, which is pretty good for us. The national average was $102.3.
How did we do on taxes? When, the Northeast pays much more per capita than average in federal taxes. Washington's per capita tax burden was $7,326. New York's was $7,911, even though New York's poverty rate was much higher.
Ah, but Amtrak is something the Northeast does get, to an extent. So the corridor must cover its operating costs, with surplus shifted elsewhere. Like the subway.
Those from outside the Northeast have a habit of ignoring the big picture when it comes to rail and roads. I just whipped out my copy of the 2001 Statistical Abstract of the United States...
You think you're real clever and you think that with such aggregate statistics you can prove that you're getting screwed over. The truth is that if such things really bothered you, you'd have moved over to Washington State. Go fuck off over there. The Northeast doesn't need whiners like you. Neither does Ohio. You don't like the truth, do you?
The reality is that the economics of the U.S. is much more complicated than what you have just outlined. For instance, some of that funding that went into Washington State would have gone into building Interstates that carry Apples into New York City for less. If the interstates weren't there, your apples would cost 3 times more and you would have even worse level of poverty in New York City. It's called Interstate Commerce. It's why railroads were created. Just because you don't live there, it doesn't mean that you don't use the infrastructure out there. If you want to go grow apple in your own backyard, go right ahead -- there's a place where everyone does that. It's called England.
AEM7
"You think you're real clever and you think that with such aggregate statistics you can prove that you're getting screwed over."
He did prove it. The interstate highway system is valuable to all 50 states, but that doesn't justify the disparity in spending.
Look at the superhighway being built in West Virginia. It's supposed to link to Virginia's road system, but Virginia doesn'
t want it. The only reason for that road is because Congress had to throw some pork in Robert Byrd's direction, and they couldn't think of any other project. That road is worthless to interstate commerce.
"The truth is that if such things really bothered you, you'd have moved over to Washington State. Go fuck off over there."
Why don't you do that? You seem to like road-building in Washington more than he does.
"The Northeast doesn't need whiners like you. Neither does Ohio. You don't like the truth, do you?"
You're right - you're a much better whiner than he is. :0)
Why don't you do that? You seem to like road-building in Washington more than he does.
I hate it in the Northeast. I was pulled into this lobsided mess just because the academic institution that I happen to need a degree from happens to be over here in the Northeast. Soon as I get a chance, I'd be packing my pickup for Texas...
AEM7
it is still a wash, New York apple farming ranks among the top in the nation so it is not necessarily good for New Yorkers. We DO grow apples in our backyard.
"I hate it in the Northeast. I was pulled into this lobsided mess just because the academic institution that I happen to need a degree from happens to be over here in the Northeast."
Don't offer BS excuses like that. The last time I checked, the Stanford offered everything MIT does, as does the University of California. Oregon State's math and computer science departments are strong; if I am not mistaken, Microsoft has been financially supporting the University of Washington.
Texas A@M is a damn good school in the sciences and math, and you could have done what you wanted to do right in your home state.
So if you are "suffering" at MIT, it's entirely your doing, not Massachusetts'...
Don't offer BS excuses like that. The last time I checked, the Stanford offered everything MIT does, as does the University of California. Oregon State's math and computer science departments are strong...
Alrighty, let's say that before I moved to Boston, there was a lapse of judgment on my part and I didn't exactly realize what I was in for. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the school, and I enjoy the place more than I enjoyed the last place I was at, but it's still annoying to hear people bitch about underinvestment in the Northeast. It's simply not true. Investment in the Northeast simply takes a different form to investment in California and investment in rural states like the Dakotas.
In the Northeast, most of the money that goes into the economy is private capital, because investor seems to think stuff makes money here. The reason stuff makes money here, of course, is because there is an infrastructure here. The infrastructure is here because Federal investment in the last century has concentrated in the Northeast! In California, the State has been kicking in a lot of money because the Feds didn't want to pay up. So if anyone has a boo-hoo story it's the Californians. The rural states would get screwed over in about a hundred years' time, when they are developed and the Northeast is going through depression, and Feds would be channeling $ over to the Northeast while screwing the by-then economically strong Northwest and Southwest.
AEM7
I'm sorry, but your story doesn't maeke a lot of sense.
How much infrastructure would you like to see in North Dakota? Enough to pave over the wheat, corn and soybean fields? Enough to get rid of the cattle ranches? NY handles banking, because it can't handle growing wheat. That's OK.
The military has invested more in North Dakota than it has in New York, historically. I'm not complaining.
Grand Forks and Minot Air Force Bases were (still are) the lynchpin of our nuclear deterrent, with silo upon silo of Minuteman III ICBMs, along with the servicemen and servicewomen who keep them ready.
I don't mind a redirection of investment to farmers and ranchers who feed the rest of us. But the mindless construction of roads and destruction of environment (yes, the same environment that feeds all of us!) makes no sense.
and investment in rural states like the Dakotas.
Youall want some BULL.... we got BULL for sale....
We even got some BULL-BY-PRODUCTS that you can spread in your garden,
or on the internet if you are so inclined....
PHFBTftftftftftftftttttttt.......
"The interstate highway system is valuable to all 50 states"
Alaska doesnt have any interstates...
True. And they haven't started building the viaduct carrying traffic from the Hawaiian Islands to California...
actually hawaii has 3 interstate routes on Oahu(H1,H2,H3), H3 IMO is the most interesting of all roads worldwide that i have seen
actually hawaii has 3 interstate routes on Oahu
*interstates* On Hawaii? sounds like an oxymoron.
An *Intrastate* Yes, I'd beleive *that*
Elias
*interstates* On Hawaii? sounds like an oxymoron.
An *Intrastate* Yes, I'd beleive *that*
H-1, H-2 and H-3 technically are part of the Interstate system.
There are several other Interstates that run solely within the borders of a single state, such as I-4 in Florida, though of course they connect with other Interstates (I-99 in Pennsylvania currently connects with nothing else, but eventually will connect with I-80.)
The only reason for that road is because Congress had to throw some pork in Robert Byrd's direction,
Unfortunatly, it is true, sometimes to get things you want, you gotta do something that someone else wants.
You want
Hew! Wait a minuite, West Virgina *doesn't* have anything I wnat....
'cept of course, that Congresscritter's vote....
Elias
Those from outside the Northeast have a habit of ignoring the big picture when it comes to rail and roads. I just whipped out my copy of the 2001 Statistical Abstract of the United States, table 1080. In 2000, the State of Washington received $108.70 per person in federal road & transit funding. New York State got $99.80, which is pretty good for us. The national average was $102.3.
Washington's higher per capita transit funding might be explained by the fact that the Seattle-area Sounder commuter rail system is growing. New York may have a far more extensive rail transit system, but other than AirTrain (funding for which probably isn't included in the calculations) it's not in a growth mode.
How did we do on taxes? When, the Northeast pays much more per capita than average in federal taxes. Washington's per capita tax burden was $7,326. New York's was $7,911, even though New York's poverty rate was much higher.
Which probably can be explained by New York's higher per capita income. New York has more poor people, but it has more wealthy people too, even with the Microsoft millionaires in the Evergreen State.
"Washington's higher per capita transit funding might be explained by the fact that the Seattle-area Sounder commuter rail system is growing. New York may have a far more extensive rail transit system, but other than AirTrain (funding for which probably isn't included in the calculations) it's not in a growth mode."
Don't forget relative population density too.
You are correct about the growth mode. AirTrain derives funding solely from airport transfer fees; East Side Access is under construction but the value of contracts there now is only about $170 million this fiscal year.
One fifth of $17.1 billion (MTA 5 year Capital Plan) is a little over than $3.4 billion. Now divide that by what, 20 million people in the area?
hey u guys, this is it! im headed for my pre placement medical for MTA Metro North. see you guys later. btw, also gonna attempt to hunt down the R142A on the 4 since i will be near the 4 line.
wish me luck
Coolness on a stick! I'll be glad to let you know when your "territory" expands up to Brunoland. :)
Caught a small piece on a news show last night that Amtrak is blaming the conductor for the man's passing. The voiceover on the piece was from the NY area anchorperson. The visual showed the purple line double deckers and a map of the Boston T system. I remarked to my family that the incident was discussed last week here on S-T.
Anyone seen or read anything further on this ????
Here's today's article from The Boston Globe.
Well, we can only go forward from here. Hopefully, lesson learned.
From the article:
The MBTA police are continuing to investigate the incident for any possible criminal violations
I'd say that conductor is in a heap o' trouble. Not only is he likely to get re-engineered, it looks like he might face criminal prosecution. What a schmuck.
From the article:
The MBTA police are continuing to investigate the incident for any possible criminal violations
This is reminiscent of the British Transport Police after the Paddington Accident in 1999. Very dangerous step to take. The Paddington Accident, and the conduct of the BTP after the accident (in trying to prosecute the rail companies involved), led to the dismantling of BTP -- well at least the stripping of prosecution powers.
I look forward to seeing the MBTA police getting shat on by railroaders.
AEM7
What a schmuck.
Being a good railroad conductor does not include bing a good paramedic or a good physician, or even a very good, astute observer.
It is clear that he did not understand the grave nature of the situation, and people are not their most effective in an emergency situation outside of thier own expertise.
What should have been available to him was not a CSX dispatcher in Albany NY, but an EMS dispatcher in BOSTON, who could have talked the conductor through the necessary steps, and even have suggested to the conductor the necessity of holding the train at the next station until the paramedics arrived, or the EMS dispatcher, knowing the availabilty of his ALS units, might have suggested an express run to Back Bay. With this information the conductor would have *known* what to ask the CSX dispatchers for.
Failing that, al train dispatchers should be *required* to take the EMS dispatcher's course as a part of the terms of their employment.
If you require conductors to know CPR, then it is not inappropriate for dispatchers to know EMS dispatching (which inculdes talking callers through the steps necessary to obtain the proper EMS response and emergency medical / first aid steps.
I think it is appropriate for AMTK to require all dispatchers handling their trains to take this course.
Elias
That's a nice idea.
There's a lesson here for SubTalkers in general.
Although our threads on the issues of responsibility, etc., in this case were fairly civil, we've had other recent threads in which we've argued quite hotly about very broad issues based solely on newspaper reports. In the case I'm thinking of, it was a single newspaper report in which the entire case was set out by two arrestees, their lawyer and advocates.
We never got a factual account or follow-up, or even the other side of the case, since the agency involved generally doesn't speak in the face of litigation.
Please keep in mind that when someone does something wrong, or stupid, or even intentionally criminal (probably not an issue here) their first instinct is often to shift blame or lie about what they did.
Even major newspapers are guilty of quoting "eyewitnesses" in everything from a drug bust to a war, as though that status gave their words full credibility, without taking into account that such people may be prejudiced toward one party or another, or even complicit.
I'm not trying to throw a wet blanket on the lively discussion that makes SubTalk one of the boards of any kind (IMO) but I think it would be healthy to remember that every story has two sides (at least) and often the one told is the one that gets the ear of the reporter first or loudest.
I'm not trying to throw a wet blanket on the lively discussion that makes SubTalk one of the boards of any kind (IMO) but I think it would be healthy to remember that every story has two sides (at least) and often the one told is the one that gets the ear of the reporter first or loudest.
Agreed. It certainly sounds as if the MBTA conductor was guily of, at very minimum, gross negligence. Yet I'll concede that it is possible he thought that the passenger could have gotten medical care more quickly in Boston than at either of the Newtown stations. No doubt the truth will come out eventually.
The issue seems to revolve around the two station stops.
The issue seems to revolve around the two station stops.
Not to step on the toes of those who *are* lawyers...
But the standard that this conductor will be held to is:
"What would other qulified conductors have done in a similar situation."
He is not held to the standards of an EMS provider, he is not held to the standards of either a railroad or an EMS dispatcher. He is held only to the standards of a railroad conductor, and the rules applicable to that position.
Elias
The conductor was in a tough spot and I have no dought that he made the decision that he thought was best for the patient.
On July 2 I was on a booton line NJ transit train which was about 2 minutes out of hoboken terminal when a man had a seasure on the train. The conductor called in the emergancy to dispatch and the train waited at the next station stop (don't remember the name) It toke 15 min after we arrived for EMS to reach him (10 min to get there plus 15 additional min). THe patient may have been served better If the train stoped at a station closer to a hospitol
Mulhern of the MBTA would not comment on Amtrak's assessment of the crew. In its report, Amtrak praised assistant conductor Susan Bergeron for administering CPR and found no fault with the actions of two other crew members. (From the Boston Globe)
The thing that people need to remember is that CPR in the field is usually NOT successful. When CPR is started, the patient is already 'dead', that is he or she has no spontainious circulatory or reapritory function, but is not yet brain dead. The purpose of CPR is to maintain the oxygenated circulation to the brain, to maintain its integrity while others (ALS/Paramedic providers) attempt to restore cardiac function.
Yes it does work, yes it can be done, but for every success you see on a TV program, many many others are seen by the undertaker.
Yes, the system failed this patient, because it, the system, did not provide definitave care in a timely manner. But having the best of care may have produced no different outcome.
Being on a rural EMS squad, I have seen only one success in 12 years of trying. But then it *can* take my ambulance 20 minutes to get to someone's home. The lady was doing CPR, and I took over while a paramedic was getting his gear ready, and I knew instantly (when I broke the man's sternum), that the wife had not been doing good enough CPR. When the monitor returned a flat line, we called it quits, and gave her our condolences.
Elias
Being on a rural EMS squad, I have seen only one success in 12 years of trying. But then it *can* take my ambulance 20 minutes to get to someone's home. The lady was doing CPR, and I took over while a paramedic was getting his gear ready, and I knew instantly (when I broke the man's sternum), that the wife had not been doing good enough CPR. When the monitor returned a flat line, we called it quits, and gave her our condolences.
At the risk of getting way off-topic, I'm surprised that an EMS squad was able to stop CPR and pronounce death. I had thought that only physicians had that authority.
Because the statistics are so dismal, there are places where field medics are allowed to do that.
In Los Angeles, some years ago, paramedics responding to a call who found pulseless and apneic (non-breathing) patients with blunt-force chest trauma (such as unbelted car accident victims thrown onto steering wheels) were allowed to pronounce death immediately rather than starting CPR. This eliminated the waste of drugs and other resources spent on an endeavor with a virtually zero return (even if your heart were to be revived you'd still die hours later in the cardiac ICU), and returned a paramedic ambulance to service sooner. An ambulance out of service could increase the response time up to 20 minutes for the next caller, depending on geography...
Amtrak Conductor Bergerson is to be commended for her efforts, however.
> At the risk of getting way off-topic, I'm surprised that an EMS
> squad was able to stop CPR and pronounce death. I had thought that
> only physicians had that authority.
Nah, I do it all the time. You should see the reaction from Nursing Home staff members when we tell them that we've done everything that we can, but the patient is dead and they should follow their policies for in-house death. They usually want us to take the body somewhere!
In reality, there are clear lines that we use. We don't start a resuscitation if there are signs that the patient is already very dead (as opposed to a little dead and could become formerly dead with a little bit of work). Then there are the cases where we try our bag of tricks and then talk to a doctor and stop. The latter is much more common.
Chip
I'm surprized that a nursing home would call an ambulance is most situations. Most patients have DNR orders on their charts.
In North Dakota, only a physician or an undertaker can pronounce death, but when working with patients whose death is expected, we do not call the doctor (at night) but only the undertaker. The doctor can read our notes in the morning. (that was of course *his* choice and directions~ no point driving 30 miles in the middle of the night just to say, yup... he's dead alright!)
There was a regulation afoot to allow RNs to pronounce death too, but (surprisingly) I do not know what became of this.
For the longest time, nursing home staff in NY didn't even need CPR cards. That changed 2-3 years ago.
There are quite a few people here in NHs that don't have DNRs. Perhaps they're there for Rehab. Sometimes the patient is without capacity. Those are the ones that I get called for.
I also get the call from those NHs where "no one dies here". Those are my favorite.
I also get the call from those NHs where "no one dies here". Those are my favorite.
Which answers the question (not that anyone ever asked it) "What does Disney World have in common with nursing homes?"
It is up to the EMS provider to start or not to start CPR, but once it is started it does take a doctor's order to stop. After 20 minuites of ineffective CPR and a 40 minute trip to the hospital, we just call it in to the ER physician, with the facts and findings, and he gave the order to stop CPR.
Elias
From the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43767-2002Aug4.html
This shows that passenger rail has enormous and broad support in groups throughout the country, even among Republicans and people in states that have one dinky Amtrain a day.
But at least the article tries to make the distinction, as I've argued here, that "Amtrak" and "passenger rail" don't have to be synonymous.
I have my own issues with Vranich, but he makes this point:
Joseph Vranich, author of "Derailed: What Went Wrong and What to Do About America's Passenger Trains," and one of Amtrak's severest critics, said he was not surprised by the poll results, but argued that there should be a distinction between saving passenger rail and saving Amtrak. He said he strongly favors passenger train service, such as California's burgeoning intercity system, but opposes Amtrak as the operating company.
"There's a blurring of the issue of having good rail passenger service and keeping Amtrak going," he said. "The public has the feeling that to have passenger trains they have to have Amtrak."
I don't think people are "blurring" anything. I think they're smart enough to realize something Vranich doesn't want to admit: if Amtrak dies, so will medium- and long-distance passenger rail in the US for the foreseeable future.
Whether you like Amtrak or not, that is the political reality.
Mvh Tim
I think they're smart enough to realize ... if Amtrak dies, so will medium- and long-distance passenger rail in the US for the foreseeable future.
Bingo! Somebody is thinking straight.
I've been saying that (mostly to Phil) for years.
Most people don't think about these issues. They think Amtrak = passenger trains. They couldn't give a hamster's butt about the deeper issues involved.
In New York City Con Edison provides almost all the electricity.
Suppose Con Ed failed to expand electric capacity where it was needed, provided lousy (or lousier) service, and then turned around and demanded that taxpayers had to come up with massive subsidies for their plant, structure and operating expenditures or they would (1) cut off electricity in the outlying parts of the boroughs, (2) provide electricity on alternate days and (3) threaten to also bring down LILCO and other nearby utilities that are interdependent with them for connections and technical support. Or they would take their ball and go home.
Suppose also that Con Ed has refused to make management or policy changes or plan adequately to provide the kind of service New York needs.
Fair-minded people might look at the whole ball of wax and conclude that, the situation being an emergency, taxpayers had to step in and so something.
But the one thing they would not do is insist that Con Ed be prserved as a corporation and management. They would be just as happy (maybe more happy) to have Con Ed chopped up and/or taken over.
That's the way we need to look at Amtrak.
Perhaps the best thing would be for Amtrak to be broken up into regional authorities, regardless of whether federal support increased, decreased or stayed the same.
Why? Partly for the same reason that transit in general was stifled by the merging of the BMT, IND and IRT, and by the disappearance of private operators. There was a great loss of management and technological diversity. If there were six regional Railpax authorities (say) with the ability to innovate and take into account their local markets, any one of them could be a successful model for the others.
There is a great parallel between Amtrak and the "U.S. Standard Light Rail Vehicle." Both were created to meet an emergency situation and were important for their time, though we can argue whether the terms of their creation was the best way.
In the case of Amtrak, the immediate choice seemed to be between an effective dissolution of all rail service or creation of a bureaucracy that at least offered hope. In the context of its time, the fact that it was an Instant Federal Bureaucracy was an advantage, because bureaucracies have the habit of perpetuating themselves, buying time for rail passenger services.
In the case of the SLRV, light rail was at a crisis point where at one and the same time, interest in light rail was increasing, but there was a possibility that the existing systems could become extinct, partly because equipment was aging. In supporting light rail, the Nixon Administration required, as a condition of receiving federal funds, that a single U.S. made LRV be designed and purchased by all U.S. systems.
The SLRV was a dud. San Diego (for one), not sucking the federal aid teat, built their own system and purchased off-the-shelf cars from Germany. After the SLRV requirement was dropped, light rail started to boom, and systems are able to buy a wide variety of equipment from a wide variety of international vendors.
Look at the state of light rail (except in New York) and look at the state of Amtrak.
It's time we pulled our eggs out of the Amtrak basket. Widespread support for funding passenger rail makes the time right.
If there were six regional Railpax authorities (say) with the ability to innovate and take into account their local markets, any one of them could be a successful model for the others.
By the same token, United Airlines ought to be broken up into differen franchises. One unit called United Eastern could provide service between the Eastern Seaboard and the Midwestern Gateway Cities of Chicago, St Louis, Memphis and Houston. Then another business unit can provide service between those cities and the West Coast. Transcontinental Red-eyes can be operated through a bilaterial agreement between United Eastern and United Western. The International Services would be operated by United Atlantic and United Pacific (two separate corporations who can take into account of the local markets and have separate balance sheets, so if one goes under, the other would be unaffected).
NONSENSE!
Your post shows you have virtually no insight or experience in managing network industries. While electricity generation and distribution is basically a local natural-monopoly business, electricity transmission is a network business. To have regional management of network businesses is like going back to the 18th century model where if you wanted to ship stuff coast to coast you had to go by the Boston & Albany, who hands your shipment off to the Albany & Syracuse, who in turn gave it to the Syracuse & Utica, and then Utica & Buffalo, then onto the Michigan Lake Shore, over to the Chicago & North Western, then onto Union Pacific, thus to Central Pacific, and then to the Southern Pacific... then it finally reaches the Pacific Ocean. God bless your shipment. Handle it that many times, it will get lost.
There is a great parallel between Amtrak and the "U.S. Standard Light Rail Vehicle."
The SLRV was a goose, but are you suggesting that PCC's weren't successful? What about the 40' container? What about the fact that the whole country runs on 60Hz juice? There needs to be a national standard. There needs to be national oversight on network industries. Amtrak is not commuter rail. Amtrak cannot run a national system with local management. Amtrak needs local funding, not local management. The point about a national system is you either have a NATIONAL system which everyone is a part of and everyone pays for together, or you have NO system beyond a bunch of malcoordinated, glorified local commuter lines that happens to make connections with each other. Look at the commuter rail situation in the Northeast. If there were a Northeastern commuter rail authority, do you think NJTransit and SEPTA would still force you to change at Trenton?
AEM7
Your post shows you have virtually no insight or experience in managing network industries.
In the first place, I am beyond the age where I feel the need to defend myself with bona fides.
In the second place, ad hominen attacks never reinforce an argument.
I'd be most interested to hear what, if any, rational you have beyond what you read in a newspaper article to advocate the breaking up of Amtrak into regional passenger authorities. The methodology you describe is called "benchmarking", and has often been practiced in such localized natural-monopolies such as water suppliers and sewage treatment plants. This works in such non-network utilities because the supply areas are naturally divided up into separate franchises. Intercity Rail Travel is not naturally divided up into regional franchises.
The only way I can see that your system might work is to go back to the parallel competition system, where multiple operators operate between a number of similar origin and destinations (e.g. the Water Level Route v.s. the Broadway). Even between PRR and NYC, there wasn't much competition in upstate New York or Central Pennsylvania. The only real competition was between the major cities of New York, Pittsburgh (by the B&O), Cleveland, and Chicago. The overhead costs of such a competitive situation is not something that the market (or indeed the public funding body) had been willing to tolerate. Unless you can convince me that somehow the economics of running long-distance passenger trains has changed substantially since the inception of Amtrak, you will not get me, or any other rational being to accept that geographical franchises is a good way forward.
Unless you can demonstrate that I am indeed a fool, don't call me a fool. Go right ahead -- I'm always happy to be shown to be mistaken. I might learn something that way.
AEM7
You might want to look at this book.
AEM7
You might want to look at the historical issues, rather than focusing on a single side of the discussion.
You might also consider that, even if a singly managed system in the U.S. were the best, Amtrak might not be the one to administer it.
You might want to look at the historical issues, rather than focusing on a single side of the discussion.
I am not focusing on a "single" side of the discussion. I'm advocating an opinion as to what makes economic sense. If you feel that there are historical issues that I have omitted to examine, feel free to point them out to me.
Perhaps from a political reality point of view, the way Amtrak has been created and sustained is less than satisfactory. However, that is no reason to suggest that the Amtrak business model is not an economically viable one -- economically viable in a cost-benefit sense rather than a bottom line profitability sense.
You might also consider that, even if a singly managed system in the U.S. were the best, Amtrak might not be the one to administer it.
The burden of PROFF is upon you to suggest an alternative who might, PERHAPS, do the job better. Amtrak has its problems, but I have not seen or heard of any organization, existing or hypothetical, that might do the job better than Amtrak if given the kind of legal and political powers that Amtrak has.
AEM7
You called me incompetent. Show me where I called you a fool.
And others don't demonstrate that people are fools, only that their ideas are foolish. We leave it the people themselves to demonstrate that they are indeed fools.
For the record, I said: "Perhaps the best thing would be for Amtrak to be broken up into regional authorities".
When I say "perhaps," I mean "perhaps." I try to be direct. If I felt it was the only way, I would have said that.
My issus is competition, not a particular structure. I despair of Amtrak being broken up into truly competitive systems, but it might not be impossible.
You called me incompetent. Show me where I called you a fool.
You implied it by suggesting that you have no need to defend your viewpoint with logic. I was deeply offended by your arrogant stance -- with the implication that my viewpoint, which is backed up by sound logic, is mistaken; whereas yours, without any justification whatsoever, must be correct.
When I say "perhaps," I mean "perhaps." I try to be direct.
You have just realized the error in your sweeping statement and you are weaselling your way out of it, PERHAPS?
My issus is competition, not a particular structure. I despair of Amtrak being broken up into truly competitive systems, but it might not be impossible.
Again, the burden of PROFF is upon you to provide a reasonable logic as to why competitive systems may perform better. I have already stated my case: (1) connections are problematic with a geographic franchise; (2) vertically-integrated competing systems have to shoulder too high a fixed cost -- with the size of the market we are dealing with, the optimal number of firms in the market is one or less; (3) open access does not work operationally, as demonstrated in Europe.
AEM7
>>> I was deeply offended by your arrogant stance <<<
You, offended by arrogance?? If so, how can you possibly look in a mirror? :-)
Tom
The definition of arrogance is to believe that you're better than everybody else. I believe I am better than the poster in question, and my arrogance was offended by his arrogance. I guess he had a bigger arrogance than me which offended mine, because I didn't like to be the second-most-arrogant-person in the room.
AEM7
Dewd ... I have no place here, but you and I have gotten on pretty well for the duration ... you seem to be hitting a level of frustration that I achieved personally just a couple of weeks ago on my own thing. (and for the rage, got sucked into things I had no intention of ever being suckered into) ... take yer ritalin. And I mean that with all respect, I think you've gotten to know "me" over the time we've had fun here. You're getting TOO passionate, and unfortunately that don't go over too well whatever the passion's about. There is a propensity here for "dry" ... OK, so be it. Just wanted to let ya know. :)
Alright, time to drop this thread... Well I'm guessing you see the reason behind it -- the integrity of the rail industry *is* the one thing I am passionate about in life... well other than my parents & girlfriend.
AEM7
But of course ... I went on a serious "get the elephant party" vendetta myself all because I was a bit miffed about a NYS Senate majority leader ripping off the September 11th fund and the feds to build himself a baseball stadium named AFTER HIMSELF and then building yet another monument to HIMSELF in that Amtrak station that he never bothered to ask Amtrak if they'd ever *USE* it ... but hey, I've got my psych plan, I've taken my ritalin, I'm feeling *MUCH* better now. Heh.
But hey, no sweat off MY skin ... I didn't earn enough money this year to PAY taxes, so it's not like it's MY wallet getting picked. I've forgotten ENTIRELY about nearly half my annual income paying for SCHOOL taxes when I never reproduced. Like I said, I'm a HAPPY camper. Republicans are GOOD. They made Texas what it is today. :)
(1) On what planet does Amtrak provide "lousy (or lousier) service"? Hint: It ain't Earth.
(2) You may have misunderstood my comment about the political realities. As a matter of fact, the following comment makes me pretty sure you did:
It's time we pulled our eggs out of the Amtrak basket. Widespread support for funding passenger rail makes the time right.
The politics I was referring to are, more specifically, the politics of dealing with the host railroads. They do not, do not, do not, do NOT want anything to do with passenger trains. By statute, they are required to host Amtrak trains. They are not required to host anybody else's trains, and if they are asked to do so, you and I both know they will charge extortionate rates IF they agree to do so at all. Do you support legislation requiring them to host passenger trains for all comers? If not, who will have the right to run passenger trains over them? Or do you think the public sector should assume ownership of the railroad infrastructure (like THAT's gonna happen)?
This is a very intractable problem, and I've yet to see a workable solution to it.
Mvh Tim
(1) On what planet does Amtrak provide "lousy (or lousier) service"? Hint: It ain't Earth.
I was speaking specifically in trying to fantasize a power play by Con Ed, to get people to realize that people would not have trouble rejecting the idea that "Electricity <> Con Ed" but do have a problem that "Passenger Trains <> Amtrak."
But even if Amtrak's passenger service is wonderful, they have failed miserably in enunciating a vision for a truly national system that isn't, outside of a few corridors, more than the world's most amibitious tourist railroad.
I absolutely agree with your points in regard to the operating railroads, if not necessaily all your remedies.
Do you support legislation requiring them to host passenger trains for all comers?
If they can or should be required to host passenger trains, then yes, it should be to all comers.
Or do you think the public sector should assume ownership of the railroad infrastructure (like THAT's gonna happen)?
No. After they got their acts together and stopped whining about the passenger burden, and attempting to dominate market through merger, and started seeking business through service, innovation, and improving infrastructure, I believe the freight roads are running one of the best such systems in the world. I would hate to see a federal bureaucracy calling the shots on that one.
You know, there are things the freight railroads want, that in fairness maybe they should have. One would be a more level playing field with their common carrier competition. Perhaps we could do some horse trading, perhaps over issues such as regulations and taxes that disadvantage railroads vs. air, water and road. In return they contractually agree to allow passenger trains to be operated by all comers on a basis where the consquences would be specific if the contract is breached.
More broadly, we should be looking for dedicated rights-of-way for passenger traffic. That I would happily support, publicly owned or not. But this requires a major political commitment and national vision that does not exist and Amtrak certainly hasn't provided.
The only President (being at the head of the circus) in my lifetime that has ever annunicated a vision of railroad infrastricture like we are talking about was Bill Clinton, who made it a major issue in his 1992 campaign. This disappeared from his radar screen immediately after election, and he ended up not even being a signficant advocate or supporter of rails or transit.
If they can or should be required to host passenger trains, then yes, it should be to all comers.
WARNING: OPEN ACCESS ADVOCATE
Paul Matus appears to be an advocate of the failed Open Access Experiment in Europe. Please join me in debunking him. :-)
It's alarming to see that people still believe that, after ARC spectacularly lost their clout last year when they concluded that Amtrak should be liquidated, only to be liquidated (well, told to shut up at least) before Amtrak.
AEM7
By "all comers" I mean that all legitimate users, able to demonstrate the usual business competences, including fiscal soundness, technical ability, and the willingness and capabilty to adhere to certain standards and abide by operating rules, have access without prejudice to provide passenger services.
This is the essential model for highway, airway and water transportation in the U.S.
You may use the debating technique of characterizing my stance and then tying me to a particular failed experiment if you like. People can judge for themselves.
At times I have had some little influence on transit policy. Still, I am flattered to fantasize that something that "Paul Matus" might advocate (even if "he" is not advocating that) might need public debunking, lest the magic of my name lead policy down the wrong path.
Thank you. :)
This is the essential model for highway, airway and water transportation in the U.S.
Four points from a vertical-integration advocate:
(1) The railroad is not a highway.
(2) The highway is moving towards central dispatching and traffic management under the auspices of "Intelligent Highway-Vehicle Systems".
(3) The air transportation system in the United States is a disaster. Witness congestion at hub airports, lack of capital investment.
(4) If open access really is what the American people want, let us embrace Open Skies, and Open Rail Equipment Building, Open everythingelse...
AEM7
It is amazing to me how discussion on this site so rapidly deteriorates to a flame war every time one poster disagrees with another poster.
In this last post, one person has gone so far as to ask for help to beat up on another. What's up with that?
In most places, people can disagree with opinions on a given topic and remain civil. I'm just waiting for the "my dad can beat up your dad" lines. Why is it so hard here?
Chip
In this last post, one person has gone so far as to ask for help to beat up on another. What's up with that?
Because some things are not even matters of opinion -- some are matters of fact, and a lot is at stake. I, for one, wouldn't like to see a railroad industry here that's so messed up that I don't want to work in it. They already destroyed my British Rail. I don't want to have to move countries again to avoid brainless people who try to run the railroad.
AEM7
You'll be HEARTENED by David Gunn ... so far, the man has BIG BRASS CLANGERS ... it's about FARKING TIME! He's already made his peace with UTU, BLE and BMWE so the people who MAKE the railroad go are already pretty much solidly behind him (not bad for the remains of Karl Marx in inaction) ... reality is that as far as PUBLIC employment (state, federal, local GOVERNMENT) goes, unions are PRACTICAL because you have civil service payment rates that are fixed and "increments" are based on (ahem, kaff) "merit" which makes rewards for individuals IMPOSSIBLE, and if it weren't for the existence of (ahem) "unions" in public employment, then adjusting wages and work conditions under the Department of Civil Service would be nothing less than utter insanity and anarchy. "State" unions are practical and necessary even if they aren't elsewhere. It "civilizes" the bargaining for a huge workforce without factionalizing and nonsense. (was the previous the LONGEST runon sentence you ever saw?)
That all said, ABOUT TIME someone slap the politicos over the head with a herring and demand that they bring back the tallest shrub in the forest. Gunn's a knight who no longer says "Ni!" ... God BLESS him for standing up to the porcine. For ONCE, we have a substitute for "Senator Warrington" ... someone who KNOWS what a railroad needs to do, and "if you take this handle away from me, then we center the reverser at 35 MPH in this 6 MPH zone, entering the S curve.
Seriously though, GUNN isn't going to let the route of the pointless arrow become ScotRail.
Unless CareSeemsXpensive doesn't leave them any decent track to run on. Then it'll be a RailTrack situation which will force the government to...swipe their tracks. Getting a little closer to the Britain system than we would like, aren't we.
The supposedly big roadblock was that the STATE wanted to build "high speed track at STATE expense" along ChickenSheetXpress ROW and CSX got all whiney becuse they feared that the "upgrade" would raise their taxes on valuation. Now that that's been settled by law and they're held harmless against any "appreciation in value" that shouldn't be much of a problem now. But the TAXPAYERS will be footing the bill and CSX gets to derail the "popcorn train" at whim now. :)
Unless CareSeemsXpensive doesn't leave them any decent track to run on. Then it'll be a RailTrack situation which will force the government to...swipe their tracks. Getting a little closer to the Britain system than we would like, aren't we?
Believe me, those weren't MY remedies, because all of them either (1) wouldn't work or (2) will never happen. But I can't think of any other way to provide access to the infrastructure for passenger train operators.
I.e., there is no way to do it other than having a government entity, with a statutory right of access to the railroads, providing passenger service.
You said:
"If they can or should be required to host passenger trains, then yes, it should be to all comers."
Of course. (Nothing else would be fair.) The real question was exactly that -- should they be required to host passenger trains?
As to dedicated ROW for passenger trains, that's neither realistic nor necessary, except for HSR where that is feasible. European countries run passenger and freight services over the same rails, and there's no reason we (I'm speaking as an American here) should have to build separate rails just because we were once dumb enough to let the RRs think they'd gotten out of the passenger business.
Actually, how's that for a solution: If Amtrak dies, let the charter requirements that RRs provide passenger service come into force again. (I'll freely admit that this idea gives me a certain amount of evil pleasure; I *hate* the "freight" RRs for trying to freeze out Amtrak.)
As for Clinton: surprise, surprise. He did the same thing with the issue of gays in the military. What a friggin' wimp. After he signed the DOMA in September of 1996, I refused to even VOTE in the election.
Mvh Tim
As to dedicated ROW for passenger trains, that's neither realistic nor necessary, except for HSR where that is feasible. European countries run passenger and freight services over the same rails, and there's no reason we (I'm speaking as an American here) should have to build separate rails just because we were once dumb enough to let the RRs think they'd gotten out of the passenger business.
Consider it on some routes. Criteria for exclusive routing (hey, let's fantasize) could include unsuitability of existing right-of-way (because of following antique routings), expense of upgrading existing infrastructure as opposed to building new, and extent of interference with freight operations.
Just as a side thought, we might not have luxury trains, but perhaps--remember my explanation of "perhaps" to AEM7 :)--we might have been better off if the freight railroad scenario could have been bypassed 100 years and operations like the New York-Chicago Airline interurban could have been completed and succeeded.
Actually, how's that for a solution: If Amtrak dies, let the charter requirements that RRs provide passenger service come into force again. (I'll freely admit that this idea gives me a certain amount of evil pleasure; I *hate* the "freight" RRs for trying to freeze out Amtrak.)
Legally speaking, I'm afraid that might be stymied by the fact that the railroads had to be "buy in" to Amtrak with money or "in kind" contributions--a substantial contractual "consideration" shwoing their performance of the terms of transferring passenger responsibility to Amtrak. To even have a hope of making this case, I would think you would have to demonstrate that Amtrak failed because of the railroads.
I think the problem with dedicated ROW, which of course is fundamentally a good idea, is: Where will the money come from? The public sector ain't got it, and neither does the private sector in the sense of being willing to put it up and seeing a chance of getting a decent return out of it.
As for forcing the RRs to start running passenger trains again: If you can fantasize about dedicated ROW everywhere, then I can fantasize about this. :-)
BTW, what's the New York-Chicago Airline interurban? Was this a project that never got off the ground? A vague memory is stirring, but I'd appreciate a little more detail if you have it (which I suspect you do).
Mvh Tim
I think the problem with dedicated ROW, which of course is fundamentally a good idea, is:
Anyone proposing that a dedicated ROW for passenger services is a good idea completely fails to appreciate the economics of railroads. Unlike highways, for the kind of demands that people are likely to generate in sparsely populated countries such as the USA and medium-density countries like France, Germany and Scotland, railroads exhibit enormonous economies of density. The additional train on the already existing ROW costs very little -- up until the point when the ROW becomes physically congested. Contrary to popular belief, the intercity ROWs in the USA (indeed interstate highways for that matter) are mostly uncongested outside urban areas. Thus, it is vital for passenger and freight services to get along and share. One ROW is cheaper than two, even if you have to put in sophisticated signalling systems and sidings everywhere to minimize delays to passenger service.
The British West Coast Mainline operating experience shows that above about 110mph, it is almost impractical to co-path passenger and freight trains even on a 4-track ROW. This is partly due to the lack of bidirectional signalling in Britain but even with bidirectional, that figure won't get much above 125mph, especially with train speeds as low as 30mph on some of the unit coal drags in North America. What that says is that the economics suggest those who want to go faster than about 125mph should fly. For the minority of rail passengers who want to go at more than 125mph, they cannot justify the incremental cost of a dedicated ROW, while for the unit coal trains, they can easily justify the incremental cost of a new ROW, as the Dakota, Minneasota and Eastern is proving.
AEM7
Actually, on further reflection, I agree with you. Dedicated ROWs for passenger trains are sort of a "wouldn't-it-be-nice" thing, but as I sort of indicated, not economically justifiable either for the public or for the private sector.
But I don't know how congested the rail infrastructure in the US is, although I think you may be overstating your case when it comes to certain corridors where there is major freight activity and/or lots of single track.
Mvh Tim
"Contrary to popular belief, the intercity ROWs in the USA (indeed interstate highways for that matter) are mostly uncongested outside urban areas."
I agree with most of what you said, but actually rural interstate highways in the East can be extremely heavily traveled for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, all summer (not just Friday and Sunday evening).
Mid-day, mid-week in the summer the first 150 mi of the NY Thruway, the whole Mass Pike, large stretches of I-95, and other major arteries such as I-81 can be so busy it's hard to maintain the speed limit. Large stretches of I-5 out west are very busy too.
Once you get more than 200 mi from the Atlantic Ocean, or 50 miles from the Pacific, the rural highways do get much less busy.
Not surprisingly, these are also the areas where there is hope for more rail service than 1 train per day. But I fully agree with you that even so, dedicated passenger rail just doesn't make economic sense.
Just as an off-topic aside: I lost my respect for Bill Clinton with his "decision" about gays in the military. What a contrast to Harry S Truman (the Buck Stops Here), who integrated the military. Bill Clinton had a very clear promise to fulfill and he failed. The President of the free world should have stood up to a nobody from Georgia.
Yeppa yeppa. I really lost all respect for him at that point, but if he hadn't signed the DOMA the way he did, I might have voted for him (more accurately, against Dole) in '96.
Back to rail.... :-)
Mvh Tim
Ever notice those tracks meant for Rush Hour service, such as the 7 Express during the Morning and Evening rush, (I think I know some people, like Dave, know where this is going) Well how come the TA, knowing that the 7 is NOT the only line with overcrowding issues, use those tracks such as in the 2 Line north of E 180, The F South of Ditmas, the 4 North of Jerome, the B south of 9th Ave... Geez it goes on and on but doesn't the MTA know that people want to go home faster, USE THOSE D*** TRACKS FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!!
I think it's probbaly about the lack of rolling stock. Maybe after the R143 order is complete they can start thinking about some of those (I'd add the Hillside Express to the list.)
:-) Andrew
I'd remove the Hillside express from the list.
The Hillside Express could actually work out OK - if there were enough tph on the local track.
I should add also:
Some of the "locals" would have to switch to express service to satisfy those who didn't like losing seats.
But it could still be tried...
When did the express service end part Continental? I have a map from the 80's that still shows it. Did it end in 1988 when Archer opened?
service "past" Continental.
It ended in part because of the disparity in frequency of service, and because local riders did not want to have to transfer to standing-room only express trains at Kew Gardens or Continental.
The MTA eventually decided the current service plan would produce the fewest complaints. Since the F operates frequently enough, service works out OK.
That would work out. Why not have some (F) trains run Hillside local, and some express. Then bring some (V) and/or (R) in to 179th and you'll get some decent service on 169th and Sutphin.
:-) Andrew
...and I only think the Hillside Xpress is necessary as a Rush Hour thing anyway.
:-) Andrew
They ran the Hillside express and the people didn't like it. They said they would rather have local trains that went express after Continental.
Yes, that was one of the major complaints.
Now Piggy, are you sure you want to do this again? It could take a while.
:-D Andrew
D***, forgot about the Hillside EXP too!
"USE THOSE D*** TRACKS FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!! "
One two three...ready?
Yeeeeeehaaaawww!
Seriously, write to MTA and tell 'em.
People complained about the #5 going express north of E 180 because they wanted dual services so the express past 180 was discontinued. (in the 1960s?)
Tracks are used for G.O.s(#2 runs express sometimes to/from Gun Hill, don't know about the off peak #5 though) and put ins/outs at E 180 and also yard transfers.
Not to long ago, some trains used the express track south of Ditmas on the F. I don't know why/when they stopped that.
As for the Jerome line, I don't think that express track was ever used in regular service - since the el was built. The same goes for the West End's express track. I don't believe it was ever used for regular service. I wonder why they built those express tracks if they weren't planning to use them, and just do a provision like they did on the Jamaica el. It's ironic that the express track that would be really useful right now is the Jamaica's express track which was only built as a provision.
Chris
>>>As for the Jerome line, I don't think that express track was ever used in regular service - since the el was built.<<<
Well, yeah, true...AFAIK, I heard rumors that the middle track on the Jerom El wasn't even intended to be built for that line...
Intersting...to me, at least.
Cleanairbus
F trains marked "Coney Island" ran express in the peak direction between Ditmas Ave. and Kings Highway while trains marked "Kings Highway" ran local. That service pattern was dropped in the mid-80s.
Because "home" is the local stations for lots of people.
How do you propose expanding express service? By diverting some current locals to the express track, or by keeping local service as is and adding new express service?
If the former, what do you tell the local passengers who now have to wait twice as long for a train and then have to cram on board?
If the latter, how do you justify the total increase in service when no service increase was warranted, and where do you run the additional trains so they don't cause traffic jams in Manhattan?
Look what happened to the W. It started as a peak direction express in Queens last July, but it bypassed some of the busiest stops on the line. N's ran crowded while W's were largely empty. The experiment failed and the W started running local in December or January, and now they better serve the public.
Express runs are nice if they take you where you're going, but they probably save a lot less time than you think. When compared with the added waiting time they force on local passengers, they're often simply not worth it.
Express service works best with "inner/outer" services that tie together suburbs with central business districts. Examples:
Stamford local/New Haven express on the MNRR
Babylon local/Patchogue express on the LIRR
Stoughton local/Providence express on the MBTA
The above bring distant passengers in faster and even loads among trains. (Ever ride an all-stop local from New Haven? Imagine if you had to ride an all-stop local from Speonk?)
Subway express service provides someof the above, but it also serves to take best advantage of existing track capacity, while time savings is not as pronounced -- especially when passengers have to change trains on the same route to get to local stations between express stops.
Imagine if you had to ride an all-stop local from Speonk?)
I've done that sometimes late nights when sometimes they don't run the expresses between Jamaica and Babylon. PAINFUL! Every stop from Lynbrook to Patchogue.
Express service makes sense only if a number of conditions hold. Start by counting how many people could use the express and how many have to use the local, and divide the service accordingly. (Remember to count people who live near express stops but travel to local stops as local passengers.) Then look at the result. Is express service so infrequent that it's not worth waiting for an express? Will local stations become overcrowded, or will their exits be overburdened? If the aggregate time gained by express passengers minus the aggregate time lost by local passengers (including waits) positive or negative? (I became steadfastly opposed to 1/9 skip-stop when I plugged in the numbers and found that passengers save time, on average, if all trains make all stops. I would still love to see why skip-stop is coming back next month.)
Of course, if express service is necessary simply because of insufficient capacity on the local tracks (which is never the case on a three-track line unless the third track has an escape valve in the CBD), then the question isn't whether to run expresses -- it's how to divide total service between the express and local tracks.
Let's look at some of the outer borough expresses. The Flushing express works because the last stop on the line is the busiest station outside Manhattan. The Queens Boulevard express works because, similarly, the outer stops are very busy, and, besides, there isn't enough capacity on just the local tracks. The short Broadway-Brooklyn express works because none of the Brooklyn stops are busy enough to warrant service by both the M and the J/Z. The Brighton express works because the express stops combined are busier than the local stops combined. The Pelham express works because the Bronx ridership can be effectively split into two components, the south-of-Parkchester crowd and the north-of-Parkchester crowd, with few needing to travel between the two segments and with (I think) roughly equal ridership on each segment. The WPR service pattern is complicated and I'm not going to try to analyze it.
Where else might express service work? Where would it not work?
Where else might express service work? Where would it not work?
Do you think it would work on the Jamaica Line, as you do have a lot of good points about express/local service usually. If the money was available, and NIMBY's didn't care, do you think it would work well on the J line between Myrtle and Jamaica Center?
Some considerations would be:
Of course the third track would have to be installed, which would fit right in on the Cypress Hills to 121 Street section as it was made to have a third track (they would have to move some of the signaling structures they have recently put up).
The two track section between Alabama and Crescent would either have to be bypassed on Jamaica Ave or somehow a third track would have to be built on this section.
There would have to be some "Express Stations" on the line. Possibly at Crescent and Woodhaven if they fit.
So would it work?
You're really asking two questions: first, would it work if the track existed; second, is it worth installing the track?
I don't have ridership numbers, so I can't give a complete answer to the first question. The TA has periodically tried to push the Jamaica line as an alternative to Queens Boulevard from Jamaica to lower Manhattan, but it's largely failed, due more to perception than to actual time. True express service might attract more riders. Would there be enough riders to more or less fill up a train every five minutes or so at Jamaica Center and Sutphin? Then a new express service could run on the Jamaica while the old local service would be left more or less alone (with small adjustments here and there). Would they continue to flock to the E? Then I doubt it would be helpful.
As for the second question, I'm not sure. It's definitely not the worst idea I've heard, but it wouldn't be my top priority.
You sort of answered it. I guess I meant is, would it be a good idea if the track was there like it is on the west end, etc. Then I got off on a tangent about actually building the third track.
The truth is the MTA's idea of trying to push the Jamaica el as an alternative to the E will never work without that express track in, and it couldn't have the bottleneck of the the Fulton Street portion either. I believe it would work if it was there, similar to the way West End is all set up to do it.
There are other ways to get better express service to Jamaica Center.
I like the Idea of extending the (A) train from Lefferts to Jamaica Center either via Van Wyck or by staying on Liberty and looping back from the Merrick Blvd end. The (A) would then make a few local stops between Jamaica Center and Euclid, and then Fly to downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan. Should be just as fast as the (E).
Elias
I like that idea also. It would also be nice to have the A line connected at Jamaica Center.
I also have a question while on the subject of the Lefferts line:
I was looking at Peter's track book and something surprised me. (I'm at work now, and don't have the book near me, so I'm going by memory) I know that the line is the remnant of the Fulton el, but it looks like when they connected it to the Fulton subway, they rendered the middle track on the Lefferts El useless, as it looks like the center tracks at Euclid can not access that track. The only way to that center track seems to be from the yard. Is this correct?
Another crazy thing I noticed is that the express track is also severed where the Rockaway Branch connects. So it looks like the express track is completely useless from Lefferts to Grant. And even though the express track does connect to the Rockaway line, even if passenger levels on the Rockaway line warranted express service, it also would be useless because the express track does not connect to the Express tracks at Euclid. I wonder why they connected the various connections to the "Lefferts" el the way they did. There seems to be no way to use that express track anymore. It would have come in handy with this "fantasy" extension to Jamaica Center.
An extension of the Lefferts branch of the A train would be very useful in that it could offer southeastern Queens more needed subway service. If built, however, Iam not certain a routing to Jamaica Center would be the best option.
First, I would rebuild that line underground just after the Rockaway leg splits away from it. This would allow the dimantling of the elevated, allowing the MTA to offer street beautification and other concessions to potential NIMBYs. It would also reassure residents that an El was not in the offing here. The new stations would be ADA-compliant and offer much better access, lighting and comfort than current El stations.
I would run the extension through areas in a northeasterly direction, along Liberty Avenue and then ?? but I would focus on offering subway service to areas not within walking distance of the Archer Avenue line. Jamaica Center has enough connecting subway service, and the value of expansding the subway net to other places is greater, in my opinion than aiming the A at Jamaica Center.
I also believe that extending the J train beyond Jamaica Center, along Archer Av, coould be of great benefit...
I also believe that extending the J train beyond Jamaica Center, along Archer Av, coould be of great benefit...
I think that was the original plan of the Archer Ave extension and the destruction of the Jamaica El. The current end of the subway at JC is hardly an good replacement for the Jamaica El. What is nice is that it does directly connect Jamaica LIRR station to the subway, but we are still a distance form 168th Street where the El used to end. Unfortunately the fiscal crisis of the 70's killed the real "Jamaica El" extension.
As for the original quesiton about the Lefferts express track, maybe the points you made about putting the rest of the line underground after Grant are part of the reason they chopped up the center express tracks on Lefferts. Was the connection to the end of the Fulton El thought to be temporary as they were planning to replace it anyway. In that case I guess it wouldn't have mattered that they destroyed the express track in two spots, rendering it useless, as they were planning to soon rip the rest of the el down anyway?
Chris
"First, I would rebuild that line underground just after the Rockaway leg splits away from it. This would allow the dimantling of the elevated, allowing the MTA to offer street beautification and other concessions to potential NIMBYs. It would also reassure residents that an El was not in the offing here. The new stations would be ADA-compliant and offer much better access, lighting and comfort than current El stations."
Putting the A underground at this point is not possible when we are still waiting for a second Avenue line... Simply extending it is the most useful proposal so far. Folks are just going to have to get use to it... and will appreciate it once it is built.
N bwy
For a (relatively) simple job like that, maybe we could find the bucks...
(Should we steal it from the 7 extension to Javits?) 8-)
Because of the cost of building a subway, an elevated extension is definitely preferable than a subway. Besides, this isn't Manhattan. As for the number 7 line extension to the Javits center.. Did you forget about the second Avenue line? I will first consider building the second Avenue line before taking on a recent idea as the 7 to Javitz. Just my point of view.
N bwy
Political realities aside, I agree with you. And I agree the Second Av project comes first.
But the Second Av line has strong political support. An elevated extension of the A does not. Therefore it will be very difficult to build it.
True... unfortunately, the reaility is.. many people don't want good transportation.
N Bwy
Dunno if the van Wyck is still and option with Airtrain on it now, but Chambers Street to Jamaica (either taking thte A to 42nd, the E the rest of the way via Queens, or the A through Brooklyn (if the A were extended to Jamaica Center. (bet 15 to 20)
A plus would be a route from Jamaca to Downtown Brooklyn and lower Manhattan, but that could be achieve with a transfer at ENY, or just stay on the LIRR
What are the other benefits in extending the A to Jamaica? besides providing another route to Jamaica (not a knock at the idea, just a question)
I would think an extension down Liberty, meeting an extended (E), would be better than yet another train at Jamaica Center, at least if a good number of busses met the terminal.
:-) Andrew
Would agree, extend the A further into Queens and extend a line south to meet it. Bring back an idea Elias posted a while back, creat a loop with a connection and transfer to the A
Ive been on the LIRR through Hollis and Queens Village, but never south of that area; are Linden and Merrick Blvd more commerial or housing, could it use the a extension/service through there?
Merrick Blvd is very commercial, and badly needs a subway line - there are FIVE or more different bus lines on that street alone. Linden Blvd. crosses Merrick about half way down its full length, and part of it is commercial, part residential - I would get a neighborhood concensus before putting in a subway on that street. Hillside Ave. past 179th Street could use a line as well - the area pas the Cross Island Parkway is getting more people and another neighborhood concensus would be good to determne what should be done transit wise for the local population.
The MTA could extend the J and open a stop at Merrick/Archer for not too too much money. A short extension it would be, but the station would be very useful. Add some busbays, like Parsons/Archer has.
How's this for a wishlist (mainly for Queens)?
- Hillside Avenue - 2 Track Extension from 179th to 268th.
- take two of the Hillside Avenue tracks from West of the Sutphin Bvd station to continue along Hillside Av beyond Van Wyck, then Myrtle Av, merging with the existing line at Myrtle / Wyckoff, then continuing along Myrtle Av beyond Broadway, over the Brooklyn Bridge and into Chambers St BMT, maybe to join the 2nd Av Line.
- extend the Myrtle Av line along the NYCRR to Jackson Heights.
- from the 14th St Line at Graham Av, a new line continuing on Metropolitan Av, then Jamaica Av, then Merrick Bvd to Hook Creek Bvd.
- second new branch for 14th St Line - after Graham Av along Metropolitan Av, Grand Av, 53rd Av, Chrystie Av, 51st Av, Flushing Meadows Park, Main St, Farrington St, Whitestone Expwy, Whitestone Bridge, then roughly following the Q-Bx1 route to Co-op City.
- a lower level station at Graham Av, at 90 degrees to the cuyrrent one, taking over the Canarsie Line. From here extended along Humboldt St, McGuinness Bvd, an interchange with the 7 train at Vernon-Jackson then under the East River between the Queens-Midtown Tunnel and the LIRR Tunnels to go crosstown on 34th St Manhattan to Javits Center.
I agree... The E should be extended down Merrick Blvd.. And the A from LEfferts should be extend Down The Van Wyck Expressway until Linden Blvd and straight to Springfield Blvd. The Connection could be at Merrick and Linden Blvd with the A heading in the East/West Direction, while the E will be heading southeast/northwest via Merrick Blvd until it reaches Brookville Blvd. Meanwhile, the J should be extending on Jamaica Avenue until it reaches Little Neck Parkway.
N Bwy
"Dunno if the van Wyck is still and option with Airtrain on it now,"
Why not? Just build the elevated at a certain height so it can pass over the Airtrain tracks without any problems.. Or since I'm proposing the A to travel on the Van Wyck for a short distance, why not connect the two infactructures together. Anything is possible.. Maybe while they are at it, they can put a station there.. that way airport passengers can access the Airport train.
N Bwy
AirTrain's ROW is quite high, due to the need for it to pass over roadway overpasses crossing the Van Wyck. So another elevated train there is impractical.
However, so long as the piles supporting the guideway are reinforced or otherwise protected, a subway tunnel could be placed under the Van Wyck.
It's nearly a mile b/t Lefferts and the Van Wyck so making the climb wouldn't be so difficult..
N bwy
No need for extra service to Jamaica ctr.. I would rather see the service serve the southern part of Queens where there's no subway service. Like Van Wyck onto Linden Blvd to Springfield.
N Bwy
I second that
A second 14th St service with a route like Metropolitan Av - Jamaica -Sutphin Bvd or Metropolitan Av - Jamaica - Merrick Bvd might be a nice idea.
My idea there was for a "K" train that shares the 14th St line with the L, then cuts off and takes Metropolitan to Union Tpke, then Union Tpke to the city line.
:-) Andrew
How long does it take to get to lower Manhattan on the J as opposed to the E?
I don't think it is that much of a difference. The J may be slightly longer, but a lot of it is perception. The might get TO Manhattan faster, but then has to run through manhattan to get to let's say Chambers. The J may take longer to get to Manhattan, but it's only a matter of minutes to get to Chambers once it's there. Does anyone know the times of the E from JC to WTC and the J from JC to Chambers? Of course the J may be slightly faster when it runs express after Myrtle, and also when the skip stop with the Z is running.
"Does anyone know the times of the E from JC to WTC and the J from JC to Chambers? "
Schedules are published as PDF files on their web site.
Regular J is 49 mins, skip stop is 44. E is 47.
See, it's all perception. The J, even to me seems much longer that the E would be, but obviously it's only a little longer, and even a little less when the skip stop runs. (Why they only do the skip stop for an hour is beyond me). Of course it depends on where you are going, as if you are going to midtown the J would take longer than the E (they really should consider some kind of "K" service again, then midtown may also be a faster option for people using the Jamaica/Broadway el). And actually the Jamaica/Broadway el is a nicer ride I feel, as long as it's almost the same amount of time, and you are above ground for a good part of the trip.
Chris
In the morning rush, the E takes 44-48 minutes from Jamaica Center to Canal and the J/Z takes 43-44 minutes from Jamaica Center to Chambers (one stop past Canal) according to the posted schedules. Some have suggested that it's faster to take the E to Lex, transfer to the 6, and take that one stop to the 4/5, but the two transfers, especially the long walk to get from the E to the 6, make that the slowest option of the three. (Despite that, I have a hunch it's the most popular option, with the E all the way coming in second.)
Of course, you also have to factor in wait times, which are much longer on the (J)(Z) than on the (E)
:-) Andrew
No, the average wait time for a J/Z at Jamaica Center is equal to the average wait time for an E at Jamaica Center: 2.5 minutes. Both lines run at 12 tph inbound in the morning rush and outbound in the afternoon rush.
But thank you for remind me to account for the wait; I had forgotten.
(I became steadfastly opposed to 1/9 skip-stop when I plugged in the numbers and found that passengers save time, on average, if all trains make all stops. I would still love to see why skip-stop is coming back next month.)
I think you had it right before when you mentioned the concept of "perception". People think the skip-stop is faster, so they think its a good thing, and they are happier. Take it away and they'll bitch until the TA puts it back. And that's probably why you have it coming back next month... because people complained when it was taken away because they thought they were getting home/to work later.
If you live at 242 Street skip stop IS faster then all local. Just depends on where you have to get off
It saves a maximum of two minutes from 242nd to 137th. People boarding at most intermediate stations have to wait twice as long for a train. I plugged in the numbers. Skip-stop costs the average passenger time.
-----
The WPR service pattern is complicated and I'm not going to try to analyze it.
-----
On (lower) WPR line there are 2 trains the #2 and the #5. One is designated to be the Bronx Local and the other is designated to be the Bronx Express. Since there are 2 (and sometimes (3)) trains on those tracks it only makes sense that one of them is an express.
The #5 should be an all day express like the #6 in the Bronx with <5> trains being released from the terminals alternating with (5) trains from 6:00-9:30 am and from 4:00-8:00 pm.
Upper WPR is another issue, some people complained (in the 1960s??) about having dual services from both 2 and 5 trains, so they eliminated express service north of E 180 Street (except for G.O.s).
N's ran crowded while W's were largely empty.
Not only that, but I'm sure we all know how inefficient Ditmars Blvd terminal is. Sometimes you'd have 2 or 3 W's go by express, then an N, then another 2 or 3 W's (not a regular thing but happened often enough), and the passengers were getting P.O.'d. And to add to that Ditmars seems to never get a train out on time, which further increased wait time for an express. So passengers complained, and that was part of the decision to kill express service as well.
Also the TA did it differnt this time
In the 1986 to 1988 time period when the Brooklyn B went to Ditmars Blvd it ran express between Queensboro Plaza and Astoria Blvd the reverse peak direction
AM to Queens PM to Brooklyn. It helped get trains for the rush period faster than having them go all local.
What happened this time is that the TA just plain goofed
Thank You
I thought last year was the only time the Astoria express track was used in scheduled passenger service.
But running reverse-peak express trains is an interesting approach. I'll have to check the map to verify, but I think it was used in the early 80's with some B trains on 6th Avenue.
I loved the express...
N Broadway Line
Astoria Blvd Station
That has annoyed me from day one. I used to ride the J every morning and I used to wonder why is there no express service from Eastern Parkway to Marcy Av. Instead, the MTA introduced skip stop service. Whatever.
Unfortunately, the subway is not designed to "wrong-rail" soas to have both tracks headed into Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM. That is the domain of commuter rail.
Luckily, they do use the express track between Marcy and Myrtle. The reason they don't do it between Eastern Parkway Broadway Junction is because if let's say the J ran express and the Z ran local, it would ,ess up the skip stop east of BJ, as there would be an advantage to the J over the Z. The only way that skip stop works so well on the Jamacia line is because there is no advantage at the J stations over the Z stations.
Now what would make good use of the entire Broadway express track would be to have a "K" train come from Canarsie and run as the Broadway-Brooklyn Local and then to Chrystie Street to 6th Ave. That way the J/Z could keep their skip/stop service east of BJ, and both can run express the entire length of Broadway, and you get a whole new service.
"Now what would make good use of the entire Broadway express track would be to have a "K" train come from Canarsie and run as the Broadway-Brooklyn Local and then to Chrystie Street to 6th Ave. That way the J/Z could keep their skip/stop service east of BJ, and both can run express the entire length of Broadway, and you get a whole new service."
I don't like the "K" plan, because, it will cut into "L" service which is badly needed beyond Broadway Junction. And, frankly, I don't really think Broadway needs all this extra service.
Anyway, about given the J train an advantage by running it express after Mytle Avenue sounds really crazy to me.. The advantage is actually crossing one train in front of another train, instead of two trains. And we can't forget the time it takes to switch both trains from the local tracks... back on to the express tracks... Plus it might help to take some people off the A line. ANyhow, Just make the M/Z local... and the advantage will be for passengers after Broadway Eastern Pkwy.
I totally agree. The trackage is there, why not use it?
The J/Z runs express track from Marcy to Myrtle inbound am, outbound pm.
The express used to run as far as Eastern Parkway when Broadway-Brooklyn Locals (JJ or KK) used to cover the local service. Now they don't have a line to cover the locals.
How much time do you think that express run would save? I bet it's not as much as you'd think.
There seemed to be several R-46's on the "E" line this morning. Are there more R-143's in service? Seemed odd not riding an R-32. Thanks.
Did you sit around watching for them?
Periodically, R46's are used on the E line. One can assume that it's whatever the yards have available to be assigned for the day's runs. The E will get them periodically because 75 foot cars can run the route.
If a route such as the J runs short of cars (the J route cannot handle 75 foot cars), the logical thing to do, if you had to, would be to borrow 60 foot cars from another line ;like the E, and swap in 75 foot cars instead.
No, but just as I was leaving Jamaica Center in an R-46, I saw another one pull into the station. Then, en route, I saw another one at Jamaica Van Wyck, and one more at 71st-Continental Ave. I would prefer R-42's, since you can at least walk between the cars. You feel "trapped" in an R-46.
That's R-32's.
No, I meant if I cannot ride an R-32, I would prefer an R-42 over an R-46.
ya aint gonna get no R42s on da E
i wonder what it would feel like though?
Speaking of places not to get an R-42, when I was at 34th this afternoon, waiting for the downtown Q, I got an 8 car consist of R-42s on the local track. All signed M--of course--except for the ends which were signed "not in service." Now what would an M train be doing on the B'way local from Queens? Unless they were testing for something...but what?
I heard on 1010 WINS this afternoon (none of the other stations picked up on it, and I'm surprised no one here said anything about it) that train service over the Williamsburg Bridge was suspended. That means M's from south Brooklyn were turning at Essex (or Chambers?). Essex may have gotten backlogged, forcing some trains to run up Broadway to Queens. Or -- less likely -- perhaps an M at Essex was sent through the Chrystie Street Cut (rather than back into Brooklyn), up 6th or 8th and through 53rd or 63rd to Continental or 179th, and it was sent back to Brooklyn via the more straightforward Broadway.
Did you by any chance see people with TA reflectorized vests aboard? If there were, you might have simply seen a school car training train for employees (either conductors or train operators). Although I don't know if you heard, but there are plans to move the R-42s (and straight end R-40s) to the N and Q lines, and might have been testing it out in runs on the Broadway line. I'll ask around and see what I find out!!
Why test them if they ran there before?
Remember who owns the trains and operates the system.....NYCT & MTA, and they're not too well known for doing things that make sense, so you just never know!! As I said I'll ask around and see.
R-46's suck. I can't move from car to car without exiting the train and running into the next car at the station stops.
I don't think one has much to do with the other. It is not unusual to see the odd R46 on the (E). You'll also see the odd R32 on the (R), which is mostly R46. There are several R32s assigned to the mostly-R46 (F). Now the (G) and (V) are exclusively R46.
:-) Andrew
[There seemed to be several R-46's on the "E" line this morning.]
Hey, at least SOMETHING was running. I've heard of at least one Line Superintendent who would rather abandon several consecutive intervals than deviate from the official car assignment and run "oddball" equipment on his/her line.
i saw like 4 R46 Es this mourning. I was very surpised since most of the time R46s dont run on the E at all or very rarely. Also i noticed that the R was running some 32s. hmmm... maybe equipment swap for a day?
I saw an R46 on the E on Saturday. I was on the E a few other times during my most recent trip and didn't see any others. I saw one R32 F and an R32 on the Broadway Local but couldn't see if it was an N or an R.
Most likely, it is an N since they still use lots of R32's there. I doubt the R32 was on the R, but you never know.
That was my feeling. Then again, I had seen an R go towards Queens (I was heading to Herald Square) and it would make sense that the next train would be an N. Then again, we could have passed the next N without my seeing so who knows. I would be amazed if it was a W.
You may doubt it but there are in fact R-32's on the R. They are rare but there is usually at least one everyday. The 8:04 R out of Continental is a R-32 nine out of 10 times. I know, I take it almost every day.
I am searching njtransit.com for the address of their Bay Head station (Terminal on North Jersey Coast Line) can anyone tell me is it close to Brick Township (Bricktown?)?
I know Point Pleasent Beach is about 15 miniute drive and I am trying to figure out which is closer to be picked up at.
While we are at it, any pointers for travelnig the Coastline from railfan view? (Which side?) It will be my first trip and I assume most trains out of Penn you switch at Long Branch.
Thanks in advance.
Bay head station and point pleasant are basically same distance from Bricktown.
For railfanning sit on left until Matawan, then switch to right side.
And the yards are at Red Bank (MOW), Long Branch, and Bay Head
BTW there are few direct express trains
DEP HOB DEP NEWARK
Weekdays
8:29 8:56 AM
2:08 2:31 PM
4:20 4:40 PM
4:42 5:02 PM
5:05 5:29 PM
----- 6:04 PM from newark only
6:11 6:35 PM
Saturdays, and Sundays
9:40 10:00 AM
Thanks
Be sure to check out Matawan-Aberdeen with its 3 stations. New high-level, 60s low level and the original station house. Of course only the high-level is used.
Peace,
ANDEE
While passing through Long Branch yard be sure and look for the new locomotives... there were two there last time I rode past, one sitting at the bumper by itself and another with a string of cars attached, in apparent readiness to head inbound (this was on the afternoon of Monday, 22 July).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This past Sunday the 29th, the boy and I checked out the Newark Subway extension. We purchased and validated a ticket at Penn Station. The expiration read 14:45. There was no schedule posted by the machines, which are on the mezzanine- only on platform level. We had just missed the 1:58. This being Sunday and fifteen-minute headways, the next car didn't arrive until 2:13. I figured we could make the round trip to Grove and back in the allotted 32 minutes.
After many between-station stops in both directions, we returned to Penn around 3:00. Unlike the HBLR where I have NEVER seen fare inspectors on six different weekends, there were two at the bottom of the escalator. I was a little nervous, but figured I could play dumb and offer to pony up the extra $1.10 if challenged.
The female inspector took my ticket, glanced at it and nodded us through. We were halfway up the escalator when the male inspector ran up and tapped me. Rob was in front of me and continuing upward. I tried to explain that my son was getting away from me. The inspector actually ordered us to walk BACK DOWN the UP escalator, which meant colliding with a lot of people headed up. I was afraid not to comply, figuring he'd radio for cops to intercept us upstairs- no need to further traumitize a 6-year-old.
I explained that I had bought the ticket at the machine on the other side where there was no schedule, and was unaware that there would be a 13-minute wait for the next car. Had there been a posted schedule near the machines, I added, I would've waited until the next car was scheduled to arrive before validating the ticket, which would've enabled us to do the round trip comfortably within the 45-minute validation period.
None of this washed with either inspector, who found it strange we would just ride the line back and forth for the fun of it. They rejected my offer to pay an extra $1.10, and finally let us go when Rob started to look panicky- not without reminding us that we could've been subjected to arrest, a $71 fine, or both. Thanks-
Yes, I should've bought another ticket at Grove Street to ensure this wouldn't happen, but a few things bug me:
-Why no schedule by the ticket machines? Possibly because NJT only accounts for serious commuters, not railfans who just want to squeeze a whole round trip out of one fare. Of course, if it were a weekday, the headways would've been a whole lot shorter and the 45-minute window wouldn't even be an issue.
-Why did they first wave us through and then make us go down an up escalator, a potentially hazardous endeavor- especially with a young child? If they saw a problem, they should've held us BEFORE we started up the escalator.
-Why were there no fare inspectors checking people getting on at Penn-or anywhere else, for that matter? Shouldn't people who are riding outbound, or getting off inbound at intermediate stops be held to the same standard? It also would've been nice if there was somebody in the car to tell people to put out their cigarettes and turn off their boom boxes.
-Why do inspectors threaten a father a child with arrest? I've seen other inspectors on both the Newark and HBLR systems allow delinquent passengers to pay them the fare or hold the vehicle long enough for them to buy and validate a ticket on the platform.
I posted these questions to NJT's website and got the standard canned "Thank you for your message to NJT" response with no reference whatsoever to the context of the actual message.
We felt much better after visiting the restrooms (we felt less threatened by the vagrants than NJT employees) and having the usual speedy PATH ride back. On the JSQ-33 train, I commented to Rob that this would make a great posting for Subtalk. A man next to me said "You're from Subtalk?!" We talked shop all the way back to 33rd. He said he doesn't post; just reads. He agreed the fare inspectors were being overly aggressive and officious.
Oh yeah- as far as the ride: Great hairpin curve after Branch Brook; nice view of old PCCs stored in the barn by the new terminal. The extended ROW traces an old EL ROW, doesn't it? The new terminal seems to be in a very desolate area with no stores. Maybe that'll change.
The line just doesn't seem the same without the old PCCs- especially at the Orange Street crossing.
We didn't tell my wife anything about this entire incident.
I'm amazed at that story. I'm sure it put a damper on an otherwise enjoyable day with your son! I guess they were just doing their job, but sometimes people really have to look at the situation also. They should not have threatened you with your son. Good reasoning would have just asked you pay your fare.
So doing a Doug are you?
There are ALWAYS inspectors at the bottom of the esculator as you and Doug surley know.
I thought it was Heypaul who got grabbed ?
Howard said: "None of this washed with either inspector, who found it strange we would just ride the line back and forth for the fun of it."
Must have been some new guys since last August, as any of them on the job thru last August have seen lots & lots of railfans riding those PCCs just for fun. As a matter of fact in 1999 on a trip there one remarked, "oh it's another bunch of railfans" Or maybe they were being a grouch because of the hot weather ... anyhow too bad it tarnished your trip a little.
I thought it was Heypaul who got grabbed ?
No, it was Doug... Heypaul took the pictures...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There aren't always inspectors at the bottom of the escalator. Maybe now that there's full weekend service, they're being posted. The last time we rode the Newark line was to check out the new LRVs. It was Tuesday, September 18, the first day of Rosh Hoshana. There were no inspectors present. Maybe NJT was giving everyone a break, as it was only a week after the day of infamy and everyone was still in shock.
Come to think of it, I'd ridden the Newark PCCs about six times after our classic June 1999 trip (each time figuring would be the last chance to do so). Only once, on Sunday, December 24, 2000, did they check us- getting on at Penn, three times on the vehicle and getting off at Penn. Maybe that's because there was special Sunday holiday service during a several-year period when the PCCs normally didn't run on weekends.
I support 100% the concept of fare inspectors doing their jobs. But these two seemed a little too gung ho, forcing us to walk against a moving escalator and threatening arrest over being fifteen minutes late. It's all the more embarrassing and frustrating because, as previously stated, I've NEVER observed fare inspection on the HBLR- at least on weekends. After dutifully buying and validating my ticket, I see plenty of people dashing right onto the LRV without stopping to buy OR validate- especially at the outer Jersey City stations. They make it all the way to Bayonne or Newport without ever being checked.
Maybe as Thurston said, they were grouchy with the heat. But the July 27-28 weekend was unusually cool. It was comfortable even in the underground Penn terminal. The coolth is why we went. When it's hot we avoid the trains. Maybe the inspectors like to watch people sweat. And while they were busy with us, other people were able to walk right by without being checked.
Oh, yeah- on our PATH out of Newark, some guy who had witnessed the whole thing said the inspectors are 'anal orifices', and that we should've just kept going up the escalator. If they sicced the cops on us, I should've said equilibrium problems won't allow me to walk against it. Somehow I wouldn't have felt comfortable pleading my case to the cops. They don't seem too interested in suppressing the beggars around the station, but probably would've feasted on me.
There's nothing wrong with enforcing the rules. But they should be enforced consistently and with common sense.
If we ride the Newark line again, it'll be on a weekday. And I'll check the sked on the platform before validating- if I'm allowed to walk a half-flight back up to the validator.
It sounds like these two inspectors were being a little too over zealous to say the least. First of all if there is a discrepancy in the ticket the inspector should have rode with you to the top of the escalator instead of creating a potentially dangerous situation that could have injured you, your son and other passengers not to mention the inspector. To intimidate and threaten an individual with fines and/or incarseration, especially in front of a young boy, was completely uncalled for. From what I can see, the inspectors wanted an audiance. Yes, the inspector was right for calling you on the invalid ticket but it could have been handled in a more diplomatic fashion. Either collect the $1.10 or give you a warning. There are some people that get drunk with power when they have a badge, even when they're just crumby fare inspectors. No one should be embarassed and belittled in front of a crowd for a minor infraction. If I were you, I would take my complaint to someone higher on the food chain in NJT as opposed to using their web site. Those inspectors need to be reprimanded.
Just my two cents, Howard
Best wishes,
Bob
The coolth is why we went.
Great word!!
Everytime I've ridden the subway even on the new weekend service I've had my tix checked at the bottom of the esculator.
I'm sorry if this differs from your experience.
Whose half-assed idea was it to put the validators in the stations not on the trolleys? The normal thing in Germany (and I believe everywhere else on earth except Birmingham (UK) where you pay the conductor on board) is that you validate as you board your first trolley so your wait doesn't count.
In Denver, your ticket is validated as it is printed if you buy it out of a machine. A one-way ticket has a time limit of an hour and 20 minutes while a round trip ticket is good all day long on the date issued. If you buy a book of tickets, you need to validate it before getting on the train. Machines are provided for this purpose, and naturally you'd want to validate your ticket just as the train was pulling into the station.
From the sinage I have read, I think they can bust you for standing on a platform w/o a valid ticket.
Now that's getting very silly.
And if it gets too silly, Graham Chapman will stop the sketch.:-)
And now for something completely different...
Errrmmmm... think of something on topic...
Can anyone think of any Monty Python sketches with trains in?
Howard, you've soiled my good name....this is an outrage!!!
Sounds like you were 'Railfan Profiled". You committed a crime in the eyes of the NJTransit Security Forces by riding trains aimlessly...keep in mind to ride with a purpose...
BTW, if I'd been with you I'd guarrantee that you'd have been locked up with me as an accomplice. Certainly we'd be doing hard time at Rahway State Pen. Just remember, I'll watch your back if you'll watch mine...
Nyuk nyuk nyuk. Do the paperwork...you should have gotten pass numbers nd wrote these people up. Accidents happen, EDS processing fails, system instructions are not clear. Big time law enforcement officers making the arrest of the Century of a father with a child for somehow cheating the system of $ 1.10. Do not let this go....just think about the next victim. Moe, Larry, Curley: where are you now when we need you?
>>> None of this washed with either inspector, who found it strange we would just ride the line back and forth for the fun of it. They rejected my offer to pay an extra $1.10, and finally let us go when Rob started to look panicky- not without reminding us that we could've been subjected to arrest, a $71 fine, or both. <<<
You should consider yourself lucky that you did not get a fine. After all, the only way to enforce a POP system is to make those without proper fare pay the fine, and not accept excuses. From the way you describe your trip, I guess the ticket was time sensitive only. Here in Los Angeles, on Metrolink, the commuter rail, your ticket is good for three hours only, and you must be traveling away from the station where you purchased the ticket, unless you have a higher priced round trip ticket, which is good all day for the return trip. (The fine here is $250.00 for traveling without a valid fare.) There are schedules posted near each of the ticket dispensing machines, and warning signs not to purchase a ticket until you know the time you will be traveling.
Tom
Wow ... serious "foamer discouragement" and a serious DIS-inducement to Guiness records on "fastest time travelling the entire system in one sitting" as there could be.
One of the things I *particularly* savored about coming to da chitty for Kissmoose and meeting some WONDERFUL folks who ride da trains every day TODAY was that magical "fun pass" and all it permitted. Locations that nickel and dime a "fun rider" who ain't gonna drop dime on management because their train was LATE will miss a piddly amount of revenue from fellow foamers, but to my own mind the whole "Newark gestapo" thing pythes me arf.
I *loved* the PCC's in Newark. I'd make it a POINT to go out there *JUST* to ride the loop to Franklin (yes Unca Dougie, there *IS* ***ANOTHER*** "Franklin shuttle," you naughty naughty boy. Heh) and back since I had no REASON to be in Newark other than to ride the thing. Now I'm not into "theft of services" or not paying my DUE. But the "system" for the Newark City subway *SHOULD* find a means of allowing additional revenue in exchange for some drooling moron to irritate the crap out of the crew in exchange for buying a ticket they would NEVER have otherwise. In other words, there SHOULD be some "slack" for this situation.
Railroads make their nut on "commuters" ... that's the bread and butter of a system. The occasional loose wingnut who has no reason to get off the train SHOULD have some allowance. When I paid the premium for my own "fun pass" it was with the understanding that I'd probably ride further on my FEW trips than any sane person might have. Heh.
But perhaps NJT might want to come up with some sort of "funpass" for the Newark (ahem) "subway" ... foamers would WILLINGLY pay the premium to be "street legal."
Here in Los Angeles, on Metrolink, the commuter rail, your ticket is good for three hours only, and you must be traveling away from the station where you purchased the ticket, unless you have a higher priced round trip ticket, which is good all day for the return trip. (The fine here is $250.00 for traveling without a valid fare.) There are schedules posted near each of the ticket dispensing machines, and warning signs not to purchase a ticket until you know the time you will be traveling.
At least Metrolink posts a careful warning about its ticket policy. Newark's light rail does not.
"You should consider yourself lucky that you did not get a fine."
A fine would have been justified (even if unpleasant). But telling a man and a 6 year old kid to run the wrong way on an escalator is serious dereliction of duty. If the inspector wanted to apprehend the "perpetrator" he should have gone after him.
It's a damn shame what NJT (be they a private corporation,
government entity, or whatever is finally decided in that
other thread) has done to NCS. It was a perfectly functional
trolley line that moved lots of folks efficiently. Now
it is a shining example of how to over-engineer something
to a standstill.
I don't get out there very often...not much reason to go to Newark.
The last time I had to ride that system as a normal passenger
I wanted to go from Penn Sta to Orange St. It took me several
minutes to figure out which of the 50 different fare options I
needed to purchase. Finally an employee passing by told me
that I needed a "quickie" or something like that. Then it took
the machine another minute to process my transaction. THEN I
had to stick it in the validator. God forbid I forgot to validate
it (there was nothing in the architectural design of the entrance
area to steer me through the validators) I could have been arrested
or fined $70. Geeez!
So when people talk about introducing zone-based fares in the NYC
subway system, I shudder.
Don't get me started on the "improved" NCS rolling stock and signals.
If you watch the NY1 video on the upcoming Stillwell Ave reconstruction project, you'll see a neat Ho-scale mockup of the terminal.
To make it more authentic, they should have out a train or two in the model :) I don't think I have EVER seen the Stillwell Ave terminal with ALL it's tracks unoccupied at the same time.
--Mark
Pretty...
The most intriguing thing to me is the use of solar panels. The MTA is really going out with themselves for this one!
Nice. They might be able to recover half the cost of the project if they sold that model on eBay.
Mark, do you have the Item Number for eBay bidding? Seriously, I hope the original BMT tile is retained in the new incarnation. The leaky roof and sub-standard restroom facilities won't be missed. I'm looking forward to the new Stillwell (as I'm typing this from sunny SoCal!).
If I had the eBay item number for this, you think I'd share it here? :)
The BMT tiles that adorned the Surf Ave entrance are supposed to be restored and made part of the new station complex.
--Mark
Mark--
One point I have never exactly heard in this whole Stillwell Avenue reconstruction is why it's been done in the first place. EIghty years is not exactly ancient for a concrete encased steel structure.
Was the maintenance that bad that the station strcuture is in danger, or are they claiming design dlaw?
Salt air + pigeons + seagulls = steel (even under concrete??) turning to mush :-)
David
Yeah, Stillwell really isn't in very good shape anymore .... it'll look real nice when it's done, and with the new ballpark and all, maybe we can finally say that Coney Island is coming back ....
--Mark
Mark, do you have the Item Number for eBay bidding? Seriously, I hope the original BMT tile is retained in the new incarnation. The leaky roof and sub-standard restroom facilities won't be missed. I'm looking forward to the new Stillwell (as I'm typing this from sunny SoCal!).
I find this very interesting. It kinda will give Stillwell a sort of Hoboken Terminal look if you use your imagination a bit. Once it's completed, it will be a fact: CONEY ISLAND IS BACK!!
While looking @ David Pirmann's New Images & saw one picture of R6 #1363#1363.
While looking @ David Pirmann's New Images & saw one picture of R6 #1363 accident. I look up the information on R6 Section Page & found no information about R6 #1363 accident. Any body know what happen to R6 #1363 accident back in 4/29/1972?
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
While looking @ David Pirmann's New Images & saw one picture of R6 #1363 accident. I look up in the R6 Section Page & found no information about R6 #1363 accident. Any body know what happen to R6 #1363 accident back in 4/29/1972?
David J.
MaBSTOA TCO/OP
Dave already put the R160 section in the Rolling Stock.
yeah, but it's not much yet. Thanks for mentioning it, though.
It should be a sight to see them replacing the bulk of the current stocks.
Hi all out there,
I am in the development stages of a piece (written and filmed) about subway conductors. I want to give it enough freedom to run its own course so I'm not going to title it or define it but only say that it will deal with the softness and the rage that may be experienced underground; the feelings that the day to day transportees are unaware of and often unaffected by. I want to mix the technical with the human in this piece. I want to hear all of the personal stories that are out there and the not so personal ones as well.
I do not know any subway conductors personally yet, so if there are any conductors reading these messages, or co-workers of conductors, or friends, etc... that would be interested in sharing their stories or in helping me with my piece and my research please contact me. I'd be willing to chat on the phone, over email, come along for a conversation on the job or treat people to a drink.
Contact me anytime. Without your help, this can not happen. Thank you,
Jesse Mendelson
(917) 763-2124
jimendelson@yahoo.com
I read a book on the subject about a year ago...it was pretty interesting in my opinion.
Underground woman : my four years as a New York City subway conductor by Marian Swerdlow.
A bunch of copies are checked into the NYPL right now.
Also, on NYCSubway.org are the "Day in the Life of a Transit Employee" stories, the conductor one was done by a fellow subtalker.
Great! I'd love all and any info. I could get about subway conductors - their lives past and present - and information on meeting a few - I know you're out there - don't be shy. thanks,
Jesse Mendelson
(917) 763-2124
jimendelson@yahoo.com
Only conductors???
Train operators are probably going to be the main focus of my piece. At least that's my starting point, everyone needs a starting point. I would love contributions from all people who are employed with/by the NYC Subway. Does your career involve the NYC subway and would you be interested in talking to me, answering a few questions - about how you work and how you feel doing your work? Let me know if you'd be willing to talk with me. thank you,
jesse Mendelson
(917) 763-2124
jimendelson@yahoo.com
Which do you want, train operators or conductors? The train operator is the guy up front who controls the train itself. The conductor is the guy in the middle (usually) who opens and closes the doors and makes announcements.
Article in today's Tribune:
CTA plans to fix its own `strangler' by Jon Hilkevitch.
The article is a bit vague as to what specific plans the CTA has. The ideal solution would be to build a flying junction from the northbound Brown/Purple Line track over to the westbound Ravenswood track. This would undoubtedly incur the wrath of NIMBY's in the Wrigleyville neighborhood, but City Hall seems to have a knack for crushing any NIMBY opposition to any project it feels strongly about (witness O'Hare expansion and the Soldier Field reconstruction.)
However, the article implies that the bulk of the work will involve tinkering with the signalling system to handle more trains per hour, rather than a radical reconstruction of the junction.
In the last paragraph of the same article, there is mentioned the possibility of extending the Forest Park branch of the Blue Line to Illinois highway 83 and building a major transit hub there, providing connections to express busses serving the western suburbs.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's a great article. Thanks for posting it.
I know smooth operation is more important than railfanning opportunities, but I'm pleased that it sounds like they're going to reconfigure this grade-level jucntion instead of destroying one of the great photo spots of rapid transit.
That junction kind of spits in the fact of NYC, which seems to have becoming incresingly incompetent at managing service where trains have to switch from one track to another, no less deal with a complex situation like Clark.
Great article! Thanx for posting.
Your right about the article being vague on their solution. I don't have a track plan of how this junction is configured, much less a view of what's along the tracks, but I very much doubt a flyover is getting installed. My guess is that they'll probably install highspeed crossovers and, in conjunction of the rebuild of the structure carrying the junction, would allow for trains to move more swiftly through the area.
A CTA track map can be found here. The junction in question is just north of Belmont on the Red Line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
If the track plan you provided is accurate, then I believe my guess would be correct. There appears to be several redundant crossovers in the area. By removing them and then creating compact double crossovers, they would have enough room to build the diverging routes with a higher turn radius, without losing any flexibility. This would allow trains to move faster through the area regardless of which route they are taking.
If you find any more info, don't forget to post it. I for one will definitely be looking for it. :o)
After 45 years, the brains behind transportation planning in the Chicago area propose extending CTA's Blue Line Forest Park service west to Highway 83. In other words, rebuild the Chicago Aurora & Elgin Railway west from Desplaines Avenue to that point. That line carried not only superfast CA&E trains until 1957, but also CTA's Westchester trains that provided local service to Maywood, Bellwood and Westchester until 1951. Ten million dollars would have saved the CA&E in 1957; how much (admittedly in 2002 dollars) will be spent to replicate this small portion of the line?
There are two choices: Chicago commuters can wring their hands, cry and feel sorry for themselves, or they can get behind this effort and accomplish it.
I think the plan is great. CTA has completed some significant expansion projects recently, and this sounds like another worthy one.
I say go for it.
I agree. I think it's far more realistic than the pie-in-the-sky plan to extend the Blue Line from O'Hare Airport to Schaumburg, which was also discussed on this board in connection with Daley II's plan for expansion of O'Hare.
hey if the real estate folks can 'pimp' the area enough maybe they will rebuild the Humboldt Park L. And as discussed some months back the Paulina connector may see revenue service again. The great thing is living to see the renaissance.
Now that you mention it, I have long thought that the Humboldt Park "L" should be extended west on the Milwaukee Road (or whatever they call it now) right-of-way west to, say, Franklin Park or Mannheim Road, with a Metra interchange station. That would relieve Metra of its non-existent in-city patronage on the Elgin line and speed Metra service. The Humboldt Park "L" could be reconstructed just north of North Avenue, or more probably, use the mostly-unused or abandoned Bloomingdale right-of-way to connect with the "L" at Milwaukee Avenue with a ramp.
When you look at a map of Chicago, this line would fit very nicely between the Lake Street "L" and the Blue Line northwest corridor.
On the Douglas Park end, it obviously should be extended west from 54th Avenue in Cicero to Harlem Avenue. After all, it did go to Oak Park Avenue, until the CTA shortened it in the early 50s.
When that is done, the Blue Line would be Congress - O'Hare service with "A" stops, and the Douglas - Humboldt would be Aqua with "B" stops.
"The Clark Junction merge point has been around for more than 100 years..." Who does the fact checking for the Chicago Tribune? Anyone calling himself a transportation writer should know better. The Ravenswood line started service May 18, 1907, 95 years ago. And the congestion at Clark Junction is not the worst in Chicago history. In 1910, an average of 147 trains circled the Loop in the peak hour, more than two trains a minute. Before the State Street Subway opened in 1943, most Chicago Rapid Transit trains passed through the Lake and Wells junction on the Loop, then touted as the "world's busiest". (Take that, Clapham Junction!) I imagine the men in the tower there had their hands full in the rush hour. (My facts came from CERA Bulletin #131, authored by Bruce G. Moffat.)
Can someone tell me why the 6 and F were never connected at Broadway and Lafayette for uptown service? Probably a stupid question, but I have to ask it.
One of the problems is that when they extended the platforms at Bleecker, they extended them in opposite directions, so unconnected platform is in the wrong position.
I wonder why they never at least connected the with at least an underpass.
I meant
"I wonder why they didn't at least connect the two Bleecker platforms with an underpass, like many of the other Lexington stations had/have."
This would be a perfect place for a Metrocard transfer.
:-) Andrew
There are plans for a connection between uptown 6 and Broadway- Lafayette via a currently unused mezzanine at Broadway-Lafayette. As part of the plan, this mezzanine woudl be renovated as would Bleecker and the entitre compelx will gain elevators. It is int he 5 year plan.
A connection between Lawrence (BMT) and Jay Street (IND) is also planned for this 5 year plan.
(There are plans for a connection between uptown 6 and Broadway- Lafayette via a currently unused mezzanine at Broadway-Lafayette. As part of the plan, this mezzanine woudl be renovated as would Bleecker and the entitre compelx will gain elevators.)
I was just looking at the Project Status Report for this today. Construction is not schedule to start until 2004, mostly because they can't put in the connection without doing the entire ADA thing under current law. It's too bad they couldn't accelerate it to match the Manhattan Bridge reopening, so all the bridge trains would have at Lexington Ave transfer.
I transferred northbound there for years before the bridge flip. I'll have to say though that transferring to the 4/5 express at Union Square is a shorter walk and a faster train.
There was a survey being done at Newkirk Av on the Q a few months back asking which line people preferred, 6th Ave or Bway. The responses I overheard were all in favor of Broadway, mostly because it is just plain faster. But the easy transfers are also a factor. Unless they extend the Bleeker platform all the way down, which I doubt they will, it'll be too long a walk to transfer there.
"Unless they extend the Bleeker platform all the way down, which I doubt they will, it'll be too long a walk to transfer there."
Houston to Bleecker is not far; it's a bit more than the standard city block of .05 mile. There are way longer corridors that get extremely heavy use (8th to 7th at 41st, 7th to 6th at 14th, E to 6 at 53rd/51st and Lex). Even BMT to IRT at 14th is at least as long, though of course then you have access to the IRT express trains.
"There are plans for a connection between uptown 6 and Broadway- Lafayette via a currently unused mezzanine at Broadway-Lafayette."
Can you elaborate? The Bway Lafayette mezzannine is at the same level as the 6 platforms. Is there actually a mezzanine EAST of Lafayette St.? I didn't think the IND platforms extended that far east.
I was out of thge city from 1966 till 19984. I do not personally know how the Broadway-Lafayette station was built, nut the capital program plan mentions another mezz at the station which will be used for the connection.
I remember seeing the unused mezzanine during reconstruction in the early to mid 90's. The mezzanine was just above the uptown B,D,F,Q platform. However the mezzanine was torn down and if you notice, the uptown platform has a higher ceiling now where the mezzanine was. I didn't notice it above the Downtown platform though.
This would be a perfect place for a Metrocard transfer.
It almost is. I transfer here every day from the F to the uptown 6 using my unlimited ride metrocard. If it's cold outside, I walk the length of the downtown 6 platform, cross Lafayette on Bleecker Street, and re-enter the IRT uptown entrance at Bleecker and Lafayett/Mulberry. It can be a bit of a bob-and-weave if a downtown 6 has just arrived and discharged passengers, but this inconvenience does not last very long. If it's hot, and platform areas are stifling, I emerge from the IND exit at Houston street to take advantage of what little breeze there might be, and walk outside on Mulberry to the uptown entrance to the IRT. The only inconvenience here is that I almost never make the light at Houston & Lafayette.
Anyway, I'm not the only one who's taking advantage of this faux free transfer. I am joined my many others who are also in the know on this daily trek.
It's always been more than 18 minutes between the time I enter the system and the time I make this transfer, so I'm not sure if that would be a factor. I think perhaps not, since I'm not swiping my card at the same turnstile as the one through which I first entered.
Seems like it wouldn't be hard to make this a metrocard-only transfer like the G-7 at Court Sq. or the F-6 at Lex/63-Lex/59. I believe these 2 existing metrocard-only transfers are actually farther apart than the would-be one at Bleecker-B'way Lafayette.
Seems like it wouldn't be hard to make this a metrocard-only transfer like the G-7 at Court Sq. or the F-6 at Lex/63-Lex/59. I believe these 2 existing metrocard-only transfers are actually farther apart than the would-be one at Bleecker-B'way Lafayette.
The Lex/63rd/59th transfer is longer. The Court Sq/Courthouse Square is not. The back entrance to the (G) is only a few short feet from an entrance to the (7). I lbelieve a physical transfer is in the works, or at least in the 5-year plan.
:-) Andrew
If it was a real transfer, the current transfers count almost as if you made a regular subway-bus transfer and the next time you swipe on a bus within 2 hours, you lose 1.50.
As other posters here have pointed out, if you just put in an underpass under the IRT, those transferring between the uptown 6 and the IND would have to walk a long way on the narrow downtown platform.
If you do anything more elaborate, it costs big bucks. I doubt the IND platforms extend as far east as the east side of Lafayette St, so the contruction effort would take some kind of tricky maneuvers with new walkways suspended over the tracks (without shutting down F service on weekdays).
Having said all that, this project is in fact either on the Capital Plan or being discussed for it, because it would be very useful.
As other posters here have pointed out, if you just put in an underpass under the IRT, those transferring between the uptown 6 and the IND would have to walk a long way on the narrow downtown platform.
That wouldn't be the end of the world though. Just think of the transfer between the J/M/Z and the N/R or 6 trains. Anyone doing that has to take a long walk across the narrow Q/W platform to do that. That station is usually pretty bad. It wasn't that bad of a transfer when the platform was "abandoned", but now that people wait there for trains, while Nassau Line riders try to transfer, it's tricky. The platforms is so narrow. Luckily, there are no columns on it.
Suddenly I get the feeling that the extension of the G to Church will happen. From a passenger loading perspective, it may not be needed. But from a yard loading perspective, it makes sense.
With the G now cut back to Court, it is a long way from the Jamaica Yard that serves it. Meanwhile, the yard at Church can hold four full train -- or eight half trains. There are only 12 G trains, so the Church Ave yard could serve as its official storage area. Is it now used for anything else? Better employee facilities there, too.
If the G were extended to Church Avenue with its present headways, it would need more than 12 trainsets (probably 13).
David
That sounds like a really good idea. I didn't know there was a yard at Church. What was it originally used for?
Actually the extension could go two ways. Either they can run with the F on the same tracks, or they can use the unused express tracks. Some problems with having the F run express, is that the local stations in between would loose direct Manhattan service with a one seat ride. Another problem is the condition of lower Bergen station. Either they would have to retile it, or they could just have trains skip it. Just because there is a station there doesn't mean they have to have trains stopping at it. It could be skipped the same way the 6 train doesn't stop at 18th Street.
Either they would have to retile it, or they could just have trains skip it.
WHY are the tiles so dang important. Cant a train stop at a platform without tiles?
Elias
Q (and D) trains stopped at Atlantic Ave for decades with only a small remnant of the old wall tiles.
It is starting to look fabulous now, though, what with the new wall tiles and tiled columns and the work nearing completion.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Either they can run with the F on the same tracks, or they can use the unused express tracks.
Or the G can switch to express after Smith/9th and have the F run Local.
I think that would go over better with the "local" stations, as it won't effect them. The F would run as usual, and the Church Street riders will have the bonus of another service, the G.
"Or the G can switch to express after Smith/9th and have the F run Local."
Why needlessly skip stations? The G will be almost empty at that point, so you won't be saving anyone any time. And it would be nice for the G riders to be able to transfer at 4th/9th.
Does that express run really save that little time? It's much more direct than the local. I thought it might be a way of saving cars (there's a shortage you know).
« It could be skipped the same way the 6 train doesn't stop at 18th Street. »
That would screw local riders with no access to F unless they backtrack.
Arti
I didn't think of that. Bergen would be the last chance to transfer for the F. Good observation. I totally missed that. Bergen's lower level would have to open if the express ran there. Bergen can't be a local only station.
>Better employee facilities there, too.
In a pinch you can hop over to 4th ave and use the toilet, it is just hard with those headways.
At Church you get to beg the Station agent for the key to the bathroom.
I do believe that in conjunction with 24/7 OPTO and 24/7 Ct SQ an extension might be on the horizon.
You need room for a relay or two AND maybe the ability to turn a train but I think you are right there is enough room in various points on the line to store all the G trains. Maybe one job would start and another would end in the yard to facilitate swaps and inspections.
Is there any current work going on that might make you think this is coming?
(Is there any current work going on that might make you think this is coming?)
I looked. There is an employee facility job at Church, with rooms for various departments, but I didn't see any for RTO. That made me think it might not be in the plans. But with Jamaica Yard overloaded, it would seem to make sense to use that yard, and with trains relaying at Church on the weekend, why not?
One of the sore points with OPTO G is the lack of a drop back down there. You are forced by tyhe lack of anything else (even water) to stay on your train and help do your own relay making it a 2 hour trip.
The question is, should it run express to Church or Local. I vote for express.
(The question is, should it run express to Church or Local. I vote for express.)
A moot point for a while, unless you mean having it go express from 4th Avenue to Church. You'd save two stops, one of which is mine! Not what this thread is about.
For now tho, a solution with the least issues:
Run the F express between Church Avenue and Jay Street, with at stop at Bergen Street, Lower level
AM Manhattan bound, Passengers catch the G
Ft. Hamilton Pkwy, 15th transfer at 7th Ave for the F;
4th Avenue, Smith 9th, Carroll transfer at Bergen St for the F
PM Brooklyn Bound: reverse, catch the G to ur local stop
Was trying to find the previous post about tunneling under the Gowanus, removing the brigde. If they are going to do that, a few provisions could be made for easier transfer bet express and local service
Was trying to find the previous post about tunneling under the Gowanus, removing the brigde.
You can't tunnel under the Gowanus.....
it is 6,582 feet deap, and there are several huge, ugly MONSTERS living in there. Why do you think those *good* mobsters keep dumping monster food in there with concrete overshoes on them?
Gheesh! What you be thinking of man!
: ) Elias
But I thought thats why the put the pump back into operation too, to flush out those monsters :)
No, the pumps were put back in service so the monsters could get some fresh water.
I can understand 600 feet deep but 6000 ft. Isn't that a little much and if so, can you verify that?
The Loch Ness monster is actually a cousin of the Gowanus monster.
:)
Not an option.
That's an awful lot of people, including anyone aiming for the BMT transfer at 4th Avenue, who you're forcing to climb a flight of stairs at Bergen and stand on the platform five minutes waiting for the G -- all so people traveling a bit further (and paying less per mile for their rides) can save two or three minutes on the train.
Besides, Bergen lower level is officially abandoned. That could change, but not immediately. Until then, expresses wouldn't be able to stop at Bergen.
If the V is extended to Church, then running the F express to Church becomes an option (assuming Bergen interlocking is repaired by then). Until then, forget about it.
The IND designers' notion that locals shouldn't cross the East River was mistaken, as service planners have recognized from the start.
"…If the V is extended to Church, then running the F express to Church becomes an option (assuming Bergen interlocking is repaired by then). Until then, forget about it."
Definately agreed, that was the same idea I had before, and one would be extended east onto the old bay Ridfge branch to serve southeast Brooklyn
Thats the issue I had with the idea, all the switching around and the 4th Ave Station, which raises a question, why didnt they design 4th Avenue Station for express and local stops?
Sorry, I tend to forget who proposes what. Yes, that was your idea. I'm afraid I'm not too optimistic on any new subway trackage in that area.
There are two schools of thought on why so many transfer points with the IND are local stops, either on the IND or on the intersecting line. Some say it just turned out that way. Others, myself included, see too many near misses to believe it was an accident. Remember that the city wanted to put the IRT and BMT out of business.
No worries or stresses
Only other suggestion, if it were possible to move the switch tracks further into the 4th Ave Station (just enough clearance to get around the beams before the tunnel begins)
The G train could continue local to 4th Street Station:
Back of the platform for Coney Is bound trains then switch and continue express to Church Ave; From Church Avenue, switch back to local and stop at the front for Manhattan bound platform of 4th Ave)
Now the G access 4th Ave, provides express service to Church Ave
Would't that be a service cut as the F's are more frequent (aren't they?) unless you made the V the Brooklyn express.
It would be a service cut, but it would probably be a tolerable one. Eliminating all service between Brooklyn local stops and Manhattan would be far more severe of a cut.
Back in the late 1960s and early 70s, during rush hours short-run Fs to Kings Highway were locals between Church and Jay. That didn't satisfy the folks around Carroll and Bergen Streets, but if the same thing was done in the future -- running V and G trains to Church and F trains to Kings Highway as locals while only the Coney Island Fs run express between Church and Jay -- you would then have enough trains going to/from Manhattan to satisfy the rides using the local stations there, along with the Bergen Street riders who wouldn't have to wait at the top of the stairs in the morning to figure out if the next Manhattan-bound train was coming in on the upper tracks or the lower ones.
However, given the number of V and G trains running during rush hour, I doubt you could squeeze enough Fs in there to justify peak direction express service between Church and Kings Highway, which was also part of the 1968-76 Culver service. But it would still speed things up slightly for Culver riders between CI and Ditmas.
I think V and G together can handle the load without adding an F "local" service. Anyway, doesn't the G connect to the A/C at hoyt schermonhorn? And, don't a lot of F riders transfer to the A/C at Jay Street.. If this is true, than why couldn't people adjust to transfering to the A/C at Hoyt Street?
N Bwy
Because at Hoyt, the transfer requires you to go to the other platform to continue in the same direction, as opposed to Jay St's cross-platform transfer.
And because a lot of F riders from 4th, Smith-9th, Carroll, and Bergen actually do want the F in Manhattan, and by sending them to Hoyt they'll have to make two transfers where they used to have none.
Those individuals will have the option of using the "new" V local than.
N Bwy
If they have that option, then I don't think anyone would object. I was objecting to the recurring suggestion that the G be the only local. That's not an option, especially if Bergen is a local stop.
I agree... But still, local passengers who transfer to the A/C lines will have the option of using the G line at Hoyt Street instead of Jay Street. I know if I was given this option, I will take it if I knew I could save a few extra minutes.
N Bwy.
They already have the option, at least those coming from Smith-9th, Carroll, and Bergen.
What is wrong with that?
N bwy
>>>"What is wrong with that?"<<<
Good question.
They allready screwed North Brooklynites most hours, that may want
to transfer from the 'G' to the 'R'. Or others where may be North Brooklyn
is their destination, so they do the reverse.
Used to be up and over to other platform at Q.P. Now it is do
the Court Square Shuffle, just to reach Q.P.
Add a minumum of ten minutes to your daily commute.
;-) Sparky, a Greenpointer
How's that going to happen. Bergan St. interlocking isn't fixed yet.
I think it is in the Capital Program to be repaired. I believe that's what someone mentioned here once.
The question is, should it run express to Church or Local. I vote for express.
Huh? What is "it". I assume you mean the G, since that's the
only line mentioned in Larry's post. In which case.....huh?!
Why on earth would you want to run the G express to Church?
And how? Cross it at 4 Ave? The pattern that makes sense
operationally is to run the G local to Church and run the F
express. However, while this would give a quicker ride to
more southerly customers on the F line, it would screw the folks
in Park Slope, Windsor Terrace, etc. and make then wait for
an infrequent G local then transfer to a train to Manhattan.
Even so,this has been addressed a million times already,and still the outcome will remain the same... not enough cars.untill the bugs ARE WORKED OUT of the 143s,and R40M/42 are availible, it wont happen[no matter how much we want or dont want it].
Church can hold four full train -- or eight half trains. There are only 12 G trains
If it were extended, 13 or 14 trains would be needed. You are right that storage would not be a problem:
Church Avenue - 7 Trains
tracks at Bedford - Nostrand - 5 trains
spare track at Court Square - 2 Trains
Try
2 JYD (swaps)
4 Church
1 4th ave b5 if you can do it and still turn a work train from b3-b4 or you KNOW that Bregen lower will reopen at the same time
And the other 6 are in service.
You don't want to block CtSq from Queens,
You don't want to tie up Church 100% so that the F's and work trains can't turn.
And you don't want to pay someone to deadhead to/from Bedford or to have someone there with the payroll. I think it's days are numbered GO's excepted.
The G extension to Church Ave would be good. However, G trains should remain local with F Trains. V trains can run express and terminate at 18 Ave or Kings Highway with express service similar to Pelham Service on the 6 train. Very beneficial for Culver Line riders. Express to Manhattan untill 12PM, from Manhattan 12-9PM weekdays.
I was on my way home from work the other day on the Hudson line of Metro North when I saw a whole barge of stripped down Redbirds floating towards the Hudson River. I don't know how others feel, but I am very sad to see these classics on their way out. All that I loved about the NY Subway system seems to be
slowly disappearing. To me, what made the NY subway system unique and gave it interesting character was its rolling stock.
Many different colors, shapes and styles. Now, everything is stainless steel, and with each new order - the rolling stock is becoming less and less interesting and more bland. The upcoming R-160's (which are to be the largest order ever) are to be virtually identical to the R-143's. No more varied colors - or different looks. No peering down the tracks to see if you're going to get an R-32 or a slant nose R-40 - or an R-62 or a classic redbird like an R-33...just a silver bullet heading your way. I know this is how many of you felt about the Low-V's and Hi-V's being replaced, but at least the R cars had various color schemes, different interiors and colored routes later in life. The new cars are going to be all the same and even the route signage is all going to be red digital numbers and letters. Just curious what others think.
Chris C. Shaffer
I too am sad about the R160 being similar to the R143. But lets not forget that this sameness is nothing new. Rather it is a return to the era when all "new" classes were remakes of the R16 and R17. The redbirds only look unique today because they (and arguably the R32 and R38) are the last of that series, and indeed they are not particularly unique even by those standards; Consider that a single name "redbird" now applies to 5 (or 7) different car classes. R26, R28, R29, and two varieties apiece of the R33 and R36.
And it seems that at least for now, the entire fleet will not be replaced. The R160 is only going to replace the 60-footers, and perhaps afterwards they'll start talking about retiring the ailing R44. That will leave at least the R46, R62/A and R68/A for the forseeable future.
:-) Andrew
The redbirds only look unique today because they (and arguably the R32 and R38) are the last of that series, and indeed they are not particularly unique even by those standards; Consider that a single name "redbird" now applies to 5 (or 7) different car classes. R26, R28, R29, and two varieties apiece of the R33 and R36.
In addition, the "redbird" classes also looked very much like the R27-30's also, just IRT sized. In addition the R32's look a lot like the R38's, the R40M's look a lot like the R42's, and the R44's look almost like the R46's, which even have a slight similarity to the R68's. It won't be the end of the world.
Okay, but bear in mind, the R-46's are not that old. Perhaps I would appreciate them alot more if they still had their paper signs and you could walk between the cars. I despise the R-160's (and R-142's and 143's) because they do not in the slightest way resemble subway cars "as we know them." The R-160 is just too radical a change from subway cars of the past. Gone are the metal straphangers, paper signs, and railfan windows. What we have here now is not the decor of a subway, rather an operating room with the hospital white walls and ultra-bright artificial lighting. And that smell of plastic makes me want to vomit. I'm not saying go back to the days of straw seats and incandescent lighting - just produce a subway car that's more user-friendly.
it is more user friendly
I think the redbirds are alot more user friendly. As one SubTalker pointed out, they have a more "homey" feel. I would not hate the R-142's as much if they had used more colors. That antiseptic white interior is just too mundane....
From the customer's standpoint, this is progress. Just think what they would say to a fleet of Standards, D-Types, Lo-Vs, etc.
From a railfan's standpoint, at least we have a few of each preserved to continue to enjoy in the future.
I couldn't agree more. The subway is more "sterile" than it used to be. As the R160's come, a lot of the trains running now will be going to the "great subway in the sky". Unfortunately the R142's look similar to the R143's which will look like the R160's. The only variety will be the R62's, the R68's (which I never really liked) and maybe the R46's, with a few straglers left from the other classes.
I'm going to miss the redbirds and the R32-42's, just like I miss the R10's, R16's, and the R27-30's. If I feel like that about all these cars, the older guys here must have been near suicidal when the Myrtle El cars, and the older stuff went! The truth is though that the subway has to progress and move on. It can't become a "tourist" railroad that runs vintage equipment. This is "progress", however everyone wants to define "progress".......
According to the Acela Express Trainset Web site, the 20th trainset was accepted last week. One to go.
I thought all 20 Trainsets were in service.
Whoops. Miscounted.
According to the Acela Express Trainset Web site, the 19th trainset was accepted last week. One to go.
I saw the 2000-2002 trainset at Philly in the yard both today and Saturday. It doesn't appear to be in use.
I did get trainset 1 today on 2155, the ride was not as smooth as the others in my opinion.
God. This trainset will go back to Boston as Train 2172. If you count BOS-NYP or NYP-WAS as a single trip. This trainset will have four trips today.
Chaohwa
I would not consider that to be 4 trips, why would it? I consider that to be only two.
In response to Todd, 2000-2002 had its nose partially off today for coupling, so to me, it didn't look like it would be going anywhere.
I saw 2000-2002 in Boston the other day.
I have an AE trip tomorrow morning (2155/2164) -- maybe I'll get it!
You know, maybe this is goodbye to the redbirds but not the LAHT cars.
Which cars being retired currently....R-26,R-28,R-29,R-33,R-36...will be used for work service?
Also....when the 160's arrive....will any BMT/IND go to work service or practice cars??Im talking about the R-32,R-38,R-40M and S, R-42,R-44,R46?????
Does anyone have an opinion?
Chris
Yes, that's true, but it's not the same (unless you are a T/A employee - which I am not). Ask yourself, how often do you see a yellowbird? Hardly ever. And think of it this way - these R-33's and 36's are gonna be replacing an even older fleet of R-12's and R-14's. To me, when something gets to be 40 years old or more, it's almost a sin to scrap it (or in this case, send it seaworthy).
>>Which cars being retired currently....R-26,R-28,R-29,R-33,R-36...will be used for work service?<<
I heard that the R-33 WF singles will be the next work motor/ rider cars. Not sure if any of the married pair car will make the grade.
>>Also....when the 160's arrive....will any BMT/IND go to work service or practice cars??Im talking about the R-32,R-38,R-40M and S, R-42,R-44,R46?????<<
The BMT-IND work cars will also likely be the R-33 WF singles too. Having work motors and rider cars that are 9 ft wide with A & B division trippers would make sense. I can't imagine an R-44 work motor.
Bill "Newkirk"
Question? What is meant by work motor/rider cars?
At NYCT, work motors are subway cars (usually retired ones) that are at the ends of electric work trains. Rider cars are subway cars (usually retired ones) that are used to carry personnel on work trains to/from the worksites.
David
I think they will keep the cream of the crop to be divided up amongst the museum, work service, and other museums.
No I don't think so.
The current group of arch roof's in work service are in pritty good shape, better then most of the Red Birds about to go swimming.
Museums will likely pass on the Red Birds, because the TA wants THEM to pay for asbestos abatement. Added to the cost just to move them out of town, it makes for a hard sell to a meseum Board.
Generally, they seem to just keep IRT cars for work service as they can operate over the entire system.
Peace,
ANDEE
Chances are that few if any Redbird married pairs will see work train/rider service. Most units I have seen are short...no more than four carlegnths. A towmotor, two flats and a work unit (like a crane) or a R62 EP with three garbage flats. Certainly air conditioning on a work trainset would be unusual. CI Peter
R62 EP is actually R127 EP. R127 are box-motors built from spare R62 carbodies from Kawasaki.
I know that! Four motor two trucks no dynamic braking twin battery boxes no air conditioning inside looks like a empty casino no bathroom filled with steel lockers electric portion cover marked 'R127' (TrainDude told me about that) card table and loose seating brake shoes not Redbird/R142 compatible nasty dirty stinky smelly home away from home solid state group box four trips diversion valves I don't fix that trainset I like Redbirds don't want to smell like trash just to be busy never say no love my work do my best give Grace everyday. Magazine empty...time to reload. CI Peter
I saw redbirds 9188 and 9189 in work service this evening.
Picking Up Refuse? Probably a temporary thing, and filling in for an R-127. They too, may be subject to reefing. On that note, I've seeing a lot of 8990-91 on the Revenue Collector over on the IND. It's kinda strange seeing redbirds in the middle of the Money Train...
-Stef
Any more sightings of redbirds in work service? Other than 9188/9? What ever happened to 9120/1?
9120 and 21 went back into revenue service. As of tonight, only 9188-89 remain on the pickups.
-Stef
These cars were seen (and I knwo I missed several):
8109-8112/8133-8136
8145-8148/8141-8144
8188-8192/8193-8196 NEW !!!
8173-8176/8101-8104
8149-8152/8185-8188
I was in Car #8185 on Friday.
When??? i was at Myrtle, and saw that car passing me at around 1100
There were some 8200's on 12 track today while I was in School Car. I will get the number on Tuesday.
robert
I got on around 12:05 pm and we didnt leave Rockaway until about 12:15 pm, I got off at Bway ENY.
Buff:
8173-8176 also make their debut!
First new ones in a while--that makes 88.
8209-8212 are at 207 Street as we write. 8213-8216 are in Yonkers
Many thanks!
Also, R-68s 2736-2743 are at Concourse, or so I am informed.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
This time we smile and say cheese.
Today’s column has been pre-empted several times already. Finally this time for sure it gets its turn to appear.
There are oodles of people out there who love to take pictures of trains. Trains are very photogenic. There is that romance with and allure of the train that continues to fascinate both young and old. On any weekend, especially when the weather is nice, there is great probability and likelihood of there being at least half a dozen or more people out there along the way taking pictures of my train and me as well. And if not along the CNIC, then certainly some railroad right of way. Even when the weather is bad there still may be somebody out there preserving today what will be tomorrow’s history. Some great photos of wintertime railroading have been captured during snowstorms. I laugh and tell people that I have probably have had my picture taken more than the President of the United States.
A properly staged and framed photo including a train or a railroad related scene can really tell quite the story. The late O. Winston Link’s dramatic black and white photography of steam was legendary. Mr. Link’s work set a standard that many others can only dream of achieving. Don Ball’s color photography of railroading was also legendary.
There are many others, while lesser known, who are also highly accomplished in their photography skills of trains. They have been published in numerous periodicals and books. I am personally acquainted with several of them, including Randy Olson. Over the years Randy has had numerous shots published in various periodicals. For those of you included on my family Christmas card list, Randy performed the honors or perhaps suffered through sentence of getting the beautiful bride, the wildlife and me into a suitable family photo. Randy had to shoot an entire roll of film. From that roll we only had two shots from which to chose where everybody was looking at the camera. If he could do that well with three dogs (the bride behaved herself quite nicely), you can imagine how well he does with trains. If things ever get worked out with the book, perhaps some of his work may show up there.
Inspired by the likes of these folks along with the draw and allure of trains, there are many aspiring and well established photographers out and about every Saturday and/or Sunday. And many others are also out there at other times during the week, day or night, rain or shine. There are railroaders who also participate in this activity as well. Some railroads like Canadian National and Norfolk Southern sponsor contests for their annual calendars soliciting photographs from their employees. Those employees seeking to win a little cash and have their work displayed nationally or even worldwide will go out in force to attempt to capture that prize winning right shot. Others railroaders shoot photos for their own amusement as well as for documenting and chronicling their careers. I am somewhere in the midst of all the above although a Mr. Link or Mr. Ball I will never come close to being.
I lug my trusty Olympus OM-1 with to work daily and have done so for years. It has been with me at every railroad I have ever worked for all across America. After twenty-seven years of trusty service (I had this camera before I began railroading) and several rebuildings and some repairs, it continues to soldier on faithfully.
I guess I’m sort of the Palladin of railroading, "Have camera will travel."
I have documented many of the people I have worked with including two of the Engineers who trained me, Howard Hanna and Stanley Pipinis. I have chronicled most of the places where I have plied my trade throughout my career. Also captured have been many of the unusual events that occurred over the years. These includes the likes of the infamous load of lumber we turned over in my MoPac days and the derailment that resulted in a car turning over on its side at the CCP. This event inspired that "put on" letter to the Conductor of that particular assignment. I even photographed the end results of a giant derailment that occurred in 1987 on the Grand Trunk Western in Merrionette Park, a South Suburb of Chicago. While not being involved in this episode, I was still able to get up close and take photos where others were not allowed. Being a railroader really paid dividends when this episode occurred.
On another occasion, my railroad career got me up close to a test train being operated on Norfolk Southern. This photo opportunity took place at Argos, IN. I happened to stumble upon it purely by chance. Even though I was not employed by NS, one of their Trainmasters was more than happy to let me get close, take all the photos I my heart desired and answer all my questions. I was a Trainmaster at the IHB at the time, had my radio with me and was wearing a Norfolk &Western 1978 Safety Award belt buckle. No, I never worked for N&W but this guy, who looked to be about twenty-three years old, didn’t know that. He must have believed I was somehow connected with Norfolk Southern. Oddly enough though, he never once asked my name or position with the company. Maybe he was afraid I might become upset if he didn’t know who I was and it would cost him his job. Oh well, his lack of protocol was my gain.
If the manuscript for my book ever does come to fruition, there will be various photos from my personal collection. I have hundreds of photographs and slides taken throughout the course of my career. I have also taken hundreds more while out doing the rail fan thing.
The photographers are not alone along the right of way. They are also joined by videographers. Emory Gulash and Steve Neff are two of the more well known people who have spent a great deal of time capturing trains and various facets of the rail industry on motion picture film and videotape. In some cases, I have witnessed people along the right of way with both video and still photography cameras set up to capture their Kodak moments in several modes. This then, would make these folks multi-media I suppose.
While at the Wisconsin Central I had Kenny Caflish, a photographer from the Northern Suburbs of Chicago ride along with me between Schiller Park, IL and Vernon, WI. A photo Kenny took of Conductor Dave Soesbe and I, sits on my desk to this day. Kenny was very generous in coming out in all sorts of weather to assist WC crews if we encountered difficulties while operating through his neck of the woods. There was many the night he came out in foul and stormy weather to lend a helping hand by giving the Conductor a ride to and from the problem saving the crew involved even more delay. His generosity also saved many the Conductor a long walk under less than desirable walking conditions.
Near the end of my days at the Wisconsin Central, I had a videographer ride along with me from Schiller Park to Fond du Lac. He captured most of the run. He also went on to ride with a crew from Fond du Lac to Green Bay as well. He was kind enough to send me a copy of the two trips he took.
Periodically I encounter those individuals who give chase to our train. This would have them photographing or videotaping us at a location, quickly loading their gear back into their vehicle and then racing ahead of us to another location to set up and capture yet another moment on film or videotape. They may chase us for miles and set up at quite a few locations. I will try to accommodate them by maybe throttling up and getting the units to smoke it up pretty good. Or I may offer a shot of whistle if the videotape is rolling. On some occasions, they may pace us along the parallel U.S. Route 45 with a one passenger in the car pointing a running camcorder at us.
In some instances I will "register by ticket" with the trackside photographers. Back in the days of Operators, train registers and operation by timetable and train order, trains were required to register en route at open register stations. Instead of having to stop the train and have a member of the crew walk into the office and sign the register book, you were allowed to register by ticket. There was a prescribed form the Conductor filled out and tossed off to the Operator or Agent at the register station. This employee would copy the information from the register ticket into the register book. This information might normally include engine number, train symbol, Engineer and Conductor’s names and if signals were displayed. In addition to all of this information, the employee making the entries into the train register might also include the time this train arrived and/or departed.
The signals would be the illuminated class lights or flags (or both) or absence of signals displayed on the lead locomotive to indicate if it was a scheduled train, a following section of the scheduled train or an extra train. A regular train would indicate no signals displayed as they were not required to display them if there was no following sections. If there was a following section, the train would display green signals. The last train running as a section of the schedule of the regularly scheduled train would display no signals. A section is one or more trains operating on the same schedule of a regular train.
To explain this briefly, say the railroad involved wanted to operate three trains on #1’s schedule, first #1 would display green signals to denote a following section of #1. Second #1 would likewise display green signals for the following section. Third #1 being the last of the three sections would display no signals indicating there were no more sections of #1 to follow. Extra trains would display white signals. I do have plans to go into all of this in depth in the future when we will look at real train schedules and timetable and train order operation.
On occasion I will do something similar for those who are chasing my train. I will take a piece of paper and write down the train symbol, loading and both mine and the Conductor’s names. I rubber band it a fusee and toss it off to them. Recently I’ve begun adding my e-mail address to the register ticket. If they have any questions about the train or the trip, they have an avenue to reach me.
One recent Sunday we had a couple of guys chasing us on our 325 train. They started at Leverett Jct. at the north end of Champaign Yard and followed us all the way to Ashkum, some fifty-one miles north. They captured us at several locations along the way including Paxton, Buckley and Gilman. At Ashkum we dropped off a register ticket to them.
The Desk Two Dispatcher called and told we would meet two trains at Ashkum, so I knew we would be there for a little bit. I was pretty certain they had a scanner with them so I called them on the radio and told them to come up to North Ashkum. While they did head up there, they didn’t stay. I was hoping to have a word or two with them. There was a Norfolk Southern train in the siding at Gar Creek and when the Engineer heard this he commented that I shouldn’t "feed the foamers." I responded that it was to my advantage as that is how I my picture appeared on the cover of TRAINS magazine some years ago.
Yes it’s true, I was on the cover of the September 1990 issue of TRAINS. While you cannot see my smiling face, you can clearly see my silhouette and my left arm hanging out the window. The beautiful bride recognized it as being me right away. I had to double check it with my time book to verify it, but in the end, it indeed was me. Unfortunately though, they had the train identification wrong. Oh well. It was still my picture though, so I guess I have a little more positive fame anyway.
I generally try to make for a good subject to photograph. Some of the photographers out there have come hundreds, if not thousands of miles to take pictures of my train. Might was well give them their money’s worth. I know guys who go out of their way to ruin a photo opportunity for some fan along the right of way. I don’t understand this mentality, but that is what seems to make them happy. Never mind you the person taking their picture might have come from across the continent or even the globe. I guess I feel I should be representing my occupation as well as my employer in a positive light.
On occasion, I have pulled my camera out and taken pictures of people taking pictures of me. It brings quite the bewildered look from some of them. I’m pretty sure this is the last thing they are expecting to see.
While working in New England, there was some old guy who used to come out of his house rain or shine and give us the finger. Actually, he gave us the finger in stereo as he would flip us off with both hands. His house faced the railroad and was probably one hundred fifty feet or so from the right of way. We’d see him come running out of his garage to the end of his driveway and then he’d gesture us. I decided that he was really telling us we were number one. One day I had the camera ready and fired off a couple a shots of him and his friendly gesture. I found out later he used to work there and was told he pretty much a miserable sort of soul and not at all missed.
I have also taken pictures of events occurring along the right of way. One time there was a house on fire that was very visible to us. I snapped off a couple of shots of it. I have taken shots of people driving around the gates as we approached a crossing and even traffic stopped on the crossing as we approached.
Remember, big brother is watching.
I have also chronicled the routes I have run. I will take pictures of the road I run documenting many aspects of it. Included have been stations, sidings, signals and any unusual aspects of the line. I have also taken a shot of the helper engines pushing my train as we rounded a curve.
While I was assigned to the welded rail installation project during my Trainmaster days at the IHB, I took photos of every aspect of the process of installing welded rail. I captured every single step from removal of the old rail to the in-track flash butt welding together of the 1400 foot length sticks of rail after they were installed.
Being a day one employee of Wisconsin Central, I captured the very first train they operated as it arrived at Shops Yard in North Fond du Lac from Stevens Point on the morning of October 11th, 1987. It was lead by three Soo Line engines, so if you didn’t know about the new railroad you would have figured it was business as usual on the Soo’s Lake States Transportation Division as opposed to the dawning of a new railroad as well as a new era in railroading. I also photographed the very first crew to depart from Shops Yard with train TO46 to Milwaukee.
I have documented the interiors of various locomotives by taking photographs of cab interiors. I have also photographed the various types of head end telemetry devices we use as well.
On the tail end of trains I have captured what are now long departed cabooses and also several generations of end of train telemetry devices.
As change is constant, I have documented many facets of the industry aside from locomotives. I have captured what are now, fallen flag lines on film. Various freight cars in long departed schemes are a major part of this undertaking. I have also captured the exterior of many towers as well as the interiors of several of them. Some of these towers have long since been closed and either demolished or relocated. There are also photographs of various railroad structures including phone boxes that were once common along the right of ways all across America.
As mentioned in previous columns, I have also used the camera to capture the mishaps, oopses and excuse me’s and parlayed some of the end results into practical jokes. I have captured more than one Conductor or Brakeman in a state of sleep. In one case I blew one shot up into an 8X10 and posted it with the caption "Employee of the month" on the bulletin board. This particular guy always bragged how he never ever fell asleep. He was not too pleased. Oh well. I even captured one Brakeman who was having a difficult time lining a switch the normal way. She resorted to actually sitting on the switch handle to get it all the way down. Again, this became a practical joke with the requisite letter to her.
While it is quite likely most of my photos and slides are not likely to not wind up appearing on some wall calendar, they will show up some place. I have forwarded some of them to friends who have been given permission to post them on their websites.
You just never know, while you are taking my picture, I may be taking yours as well.
"Smile, you’re on Candid Camera."
This past Thursday, August 1st, the new contract with the BofLE and CNIC went into effect. We are now working under an hourly wage system. Being that folks in some circles are calling this contract historic, I guess that means I was part of history that day as I was working my regular 322 assignment.
To those of you who were kind enough to send along birthday wishes to the beautiful bride, she thanks you. I really treated her this year as I took this weekend off and we went out and celebrated. We saw a play in Chicago and then went out to dinner with some friends and family. It was a very enjoyable time.
A couple of post scripts to last weeks column; Being that I have a common tendency to remember something I was supposed to include in a column after it gets put to bed, last weeks column was no exception. I left out something that I had intended to include, so it gets added here.
The first year we were married, the beautiful bride was working for a law firm in downtown Chicago. This had her out of the house by about 630 or so every morning. She had to leave early to catch her bus. Being that there were two sets of railroad tracks for her to cross, there was the distinct possibility of her getting caught by a train on the way to work. If having me around (sometimes) wasn’t bad enough, she had to deal with railroading on her way to work too.
During this time, I was on the extra board for the most part. I was working all sorts of hours and we did not get to see too much of each other. I knew there was somebody there though as things were getting done in the house and I wasn’t doing them. Food appeared in the fridge, clothes were getting washed and I wasn’t dropping them off at the laundry like I did in my single days. And there was somebody sleeping in my bed oftentimes when I got home. Wait a minute, oh ya that’s right, I took a wife.
Whenever I went off to work or out to do errands or something where she might come while I was out, I would leave her a note telling of what was going on. So that she would fully understand who it was leaving her these notes, I always signed "Your husband" at the bottom. I figured this would help her would recall who I actually was aside from the guy that sometimes appeared in her home, ate a ton of food and left dirty clothes behind. Nearly sixteen years later, I have kept up with this tradition. I do believe at this point though, the bride pretty much remembers me now.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
The proposed Second Avenue Subway is mostly deep bore tubes. Is this why it's restricted to only two lines? If it was designed using cut and cover would there be more room to build extra tracks?
The original IND 2nd System plans described it's Second Avenue Subway as 2 tracks Downtown, 4 tracks in Midtown, and 6 tracks Uptown.
So far it's going be a 2 track line making all (16) stops. So would straphangers want to use it as an alternative to the Lex Express (9 stops), or would Metro North riders be encouraged to use it at 125th St. Are we still going to see overcrowding on the Lex? Is the Second Avenue Subway liable to become the next Cross-town line; mostly utilized by those living in proximity to it and not by the city as a whole?
Most of the new subways being built around the world are tubes. Is this the direction subway construction is going and the MTA is on the bandwagon? Is cut and cover obsolete?
Any ideas or opinions?
-Alex V.
Second Avenue is still supposed to feature SOME cut-and-cover, mostly at stations, as well as some mining. However, in the rock that supports most of Second Avenue, TBMs (Tunnel Boring Machines) are the most efficient construction method.
David
1. IMHO cut and cover is not ipso facto obsolete. It IS poliicaly difficult in densely developed areas such as Second Ave.
2. The defective design currently favored for the Second Ave line is a mix of inflation/corruption costs making a genuinely seful subway unaffordable. The ridersgip market is there for both 'local' and express services, particulary if the Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn segments are built. In my dreams this oil driven government will wake up and spend the money.
At the expense of sounding flippant, I'd point out that the reconstruction of the IRT line in the World Trade Center area is "cut and cover". Cut and cover, while probably cheaper than boring a tunnel, can be devastating for businesses along the route.
It can be disruptive. It does offer the easiest access to the entire worksite, and is best done while you are redeveloping a whole area. The work can proceed quickly.
This was done with PATH when the WTC towers were first put up. It is now being done for the IRT.
I have come to agree with Mr. Parsons. For the customer, his one-flight-down IRT stations are more user friendly than those further down, and you need cut and cover to build them. Compare them with DC, where it takes ten minutes just to get to the train. It makes a big difference as to whether or not people will use the subway for short trips -- station entry and exit time (along with wait time) becomes a big share of the total.
I think the answer to disruption is to take the hit and do it fast. For businesses, pass a law getting them out of their leases, and have them close during construction. Pass a property tax exemption to cover the landlord's losses. Then get the hole dug, and the street rebuilt, in less than 12 months, working one 12 hour shift. Short run pain, long run gain.
"Then get the hole dug, and the street rebuilt, in less than 12 months, working one 12 hour shift. Short run pain, long run gain."
And when it's done, property values skyrocket.
There is much to be said for this. I agree with Larry - except, of course that these days, it's an open invitation for NIMBY to rear its ugly head. That's a political thing.
What about economic grants (straight cash) along with tax abatements offered to businesses along the new subway route to compensate them for the construction period?
(There is much to be said for this. I agree with Larry - except, of course that these days, it's an open invitation for NIMBY to rear
its ugly head. That's a political thing. What about economic grants (straight cash) along with tax abatements offered to businesses along the new subway route to compensate them for the construction period?)
As I said, you can provide a property tax abatement for the diminished value of the property during the construction period, on condition that it is passed on to the business and residential tenants. An incentive to go faster.
There has to be some kind of happy medium here. Plenty of people live or work near socially beneficial by locally annoying uses that are PERMANENT. This one is temporary.
Where's Moses when ya need him?
I think the answer to disruption is to take the hit and do it fast. For businesses, pass a law getting them out of their leases, and have them close during construction. Pass a property tax exemption to cover the landlord's losses.
What about all the lost revenues that the businesses will suffer? Even with no rent costs, the employees still have to be paid during the shutdown period - unless you propose they be laid off, which I'm sure you're not.
For their part, the landlords will be suffering with no rents coming in, even if they're not paying property taxes. There are many other expenses, mortgage payments in particular.
Then get the hole dug, and the street rebuilt, in less than 12 months, working one 12 hour shift. Short run pain, long run gain.
I just can't believe that plan would work in New York. The 1/9 reconstruction is a special case.
The plan can work if there is a conscious and efficient to get it done. Hire workers to work around the clock (3 shifts of 8 hours each). Hire even more workers, and work at 2 sites at once (approaching each other in opposite directions) for twice the speed. Recompensate all businesses along the avenue for the amount of revenue they earned in the previous year.
It's not a matter of "can't" be done. It's just that nobody wants to expend the effort and money to finally get it done.
The plan can work if there is a conscious and efficient to get it done. Hire workers to work around the clock (3 shifts of 8 hours each).
Overnight work in a residential area isn't really an option because of construction noise.
How the **** does boston's big dig project work then?
How the **** does boston's big dig project work then?
Big Dig is not a cut-and-cover project. It's a cover-and-cut project. The I-93 had already "covered" the Boston townscape, and now they are trying to "cut" below the "cover". Well they are mostly done now.
It's like putting the cart before the hourse, but that was the only way to do it in the circumstances.
AEM7
Overnight work in a residential area isn't really an option because of construction noise.
Night shift workers live in residential areas too. They'd really thank you for making loud noise all day when they need to be asleep then stopping when they need to get up.
Was the plan aforementioned even involve residential areas? I believe it involved commerce.
The 'sand hogs' were all of African/American ancestry who have been doing this nasty and dangerous work for generations. The three primary contractors somehow managed to obtain large numbers of 'guest workers' from Ireland while US citizens remained unemployed during a resession. Three shifts at two locations and the work was not offered here. I know of this because the crew would eat lunch at my doorsteps.
I second your agreement with the Parsons POV. Too bad the corporate heirs P,B,Q,D forgot the principles when designing BART.
"I think the answer to disruption is to take the hit and do it fast."
Unfortunately, it's not only the businesses on that avenue that take the hit. If you shut down 2nd Ave to do cut and cover, you would cripple all surface traffic on the entire east side. If you shut down only half the lanes of 2nd Ave at a time, you still mess up surface traffic, and also you prolong the project and extend the misery for the businesses.
Problem is, even deep tunnel doesn't make selected businesses immune from the same problems cut and cover has. When the Red Line was being built deep under Connecticut and Massachusette Aves. in Washington DC back in the late 70s and early 80s, the areas around where the stations would go in -- like Cleveland Park, Van Ness-UDC and Tenley Circle -- were a mass of wooden planks, missing sidewalks and traffic detours, since you had to get the construction equipment and supplies in and out of the tunnels somewhere. Since those areas were also already the main business areas on those avenues, the effects were pretty noticable.
Deep tunnelling along Second Ave. would cut the pain for businesses and residents located in areas where no stations were planned, but if you have a business/office/apartment around streets like 23rd, 34th or 42nd, you'd be in for a mess with either option.
We had the same situation in Los Angeles. Most of L.A.'s Red Line was built using deep-tunnel boring, but the areas around the stations were, by neccesity, built using cut-and-cover. Hollywood Boulevard, in an area already reeling from decades of decay and neglect, was hurt even further; not only were businesses forced to relocate or fold, but the street itself sank, damaging buildings.
I understand that (in LA) Tutor-Saliba didn't take enough care to underpin the buildings well enough...among other things...
Baltimore did the same thing. The tunnels were bored, but the stations were all cut and cover. Baltmore Street got a big hit at Charles Street because that's where Charles Center Station went. Planned as the terminal/interchange station that would serve both the Northwest line and the South line, it spans a full 3 blocks, from Hanover Street to Calvert Street. Three levels deep as opened, and the roughed-in structure for the never-built South line, accessable today through a manhole at the east end of the platform, was to be the fourth level.
We lived with boards, plates and assorted traffic problems from 1978 to 1981. One oddity was the discovery of hundreds of cut-off cable yokes under the pavement, an almost forgotten part of Baltimore's transit past. One of the yokes still reposes in BSM's car house. Visitors have to be be told what it is, you really can't tell.
Well if you do a TBM construction then no one would know what's going on below until the exits need to be built. If you do it by cut and cover then all hell can break loose(Nimby protesting). Plus it's faster and cheaper than cut and cover. And remember one thing. When the MTA goes and bids for a construction firm the MTA says how big and how many are needed so these things can be modified for any choosen size.
I'd have to ask the question where the subway is built. If it's in an area with an ordinary number of underground utilities, cut and cover might still be cheapest.
Aren't bored tunnels being built partly to go unaderneath utilities instead of having to relocate them?
Two interesting questions:
First, when I drove a cab during the early 70s I distinctly remember segments of 2nd Ave were being done by "Cut & Cover". I also remember that much of the 63rd street line was cut and cover, too. I even remember a yellow cab going into one of the uncoverec cuts at 56th St/6th Ave.
Second, I was going to say that cut and cover is far more disruptive than boring so one would expect the method used to reflect the political and socio/economic strength of the subject neighborhood. Of course, 63rd Street/Park Ave. seems to be the exception that proves the rule.
That's fascinating. I wish there were pictures of the early 70's construction.
I lived through two years of abosolute Hell with the 63rd Street tunnel project. Blasting with hundreds of charges from seven AM to eleven PM with continous rock drilling. Posters on the site told me that the plaza across the street was to accomadate a subway entrance...I told them that a planned underground shopping mall was squashed because of the high crime rate attributed to access at 59 and Lex from Alexanders. CI Peter
I was going to say that cut and cover is far more disruptive than boring so one would expect the method used to reflect the political and socio/economic strength of the subject neighborhood. Of course, 63rd Street/Park Ave. seems to be the exception that proves the rule.
Most of what I've read seems to indicate that the 63rd Street construction was a huge disaster for everyone in the area and basically killed off the possibility of cut-and-cover construction in Manhattan.
True. It was very difficult, and took a long time.
Let's be fair, however: the TA restored literally every rock, tree and stone after finishing construction. At least they kept that promise.
Good. It was nice to know they restored everything back.
Very little street disruption....all was always covered with timbers and street plates.
Cut and cover is a disaster waiting to happen. 'Jacks Candy and Stationery' was fixture on NW 63 & 3rd. Their son died of injuries when his motorcycle lofted on the plates/vault surface and pointed it out to me when they found out I was a motorcycle operator. There are several concrete vaults in the intersection...three times access required street excavation. My apartment building was a victim of a cable shelf fire...temporary ties caught fire sending thousands of cubic yards of acrid smoke through basement access (the chain operated street elevator no longer exists.) 63 and Park remains a mess...I did get DOT to repave the surface when I pointed out the loss of vehicle control on the turn. Just yesterday I noticed a 'sinkhole' in front of my building that bottoms out passenger vehicles at slow speeds. CI Peter
You drove a cab in the early seventies????? You were a licensed school teacher and then you became a Car Inspector?????? Does TA ever know what they have in us????? Do they schlub about waiting to see if we improve ourselves and advance while we do the 'Midas touch' or do they know we will improve ourselves because we want better? CI Peter, never drove a cab but did operate AAA tow trucks, Brinks armored trucks, Waste Management garbage trucks, Allied Services trucks on LaGuardia/JFK ramps and Federal law enforcement vehicles assesing radio coverage.
Alex,
These are some excellent questions.
"The proposed Second Avenue Subway is mostly deep bore tubes. Is this why it's restricted to only two lines?"
Yes, the proposed Second Avenue Subway (SAS) is mostly deep bore tubes, but to assert that this is the reason why there is only a two track alignment is to confuse cause and effect.
The SAS, as proposed, has a two track alignment because of cost. Money for transit doesn't grow on trees these days, and the funds for a four-track alignment are simply not available at this time.
As I've always said, four tracks under Second Avenue are better than two tracks, but two tracks are better than no tracks.
"If it was designed using cut and cover would there be more room to build extra tracks?"
I assume you mean the express tracks, and again, the answer is no. Four tracks in a cut-and-cover arrangement cannot fit (side-by-side) underneath Second Avenue for a variety of reasons that I've gone into before. In short:
1) The Second Avenue trunk sewer occupies much of the space, actually forcing the two tracks over to the western side of the avenue. I must keep reminding people that this is a bigger obstacle than seems logical.
2) Massive underpinning of the adjacent structures would be required for a four track side-by-side alignment. This translates to increased cost (bad), and increased NIMBY objection (worse).
3) Second Avenue must remain in service for the duration of the construction. By building only two tracks on the Western aside of the avenue,
4) Yes, other narrower roads have four trakcs underneath them, but times have changed.
"The original IND 2nd System plans described it's Second Avenue Subway as 2 tracks Downtown, 4 tracks in Midtown, and 6 tracks Uptown."
There is a lot in the IND Second System plan that is now unnecessary. More transit isn't always better transit. This objection falls under the money doesn't grow on trees category.
"Are we still going to see overcrowding on the Lex?"
Probabaly. But any help is much appreciated.
"Is the Second Avenue Subway liable to become the next Cross-town line; mostly utilized by those living in proximity to it and not by the city as a whole?"
No. The Crosstown IND sees a lack of patronage because of the ridership patterns in the New York Metro Area. The vast majority of people are traveling from an outer borough or Uptown to a business center; Midtown or Downtown. The Crosstown-IND travels solely from an outer borough (Queens), to another outer Borough (Brooklyn). Downtown Brooklyn never picked up as a major business center. The few people travelling between outer boroughs and as a feeder line to other lines running through Manhattan use the Crosstown IND.
The SAS optimizes alignment according to the current ridership demographics, basically following, in parallel, to the East Side IRT. The SAS will serve to take current commuters (such as myself) off of the IRT, thus reducing boarding and departing on the IRT in Manhattan.
The Lexington Avenue IRT currently suffers from crush loading conditions during the rush. The SAS can be thought of as adding two additional tracks, except that these tracks are in a more optimal location -- the vast majority of Lexington Avenue Manhattan riders board from only one side (East) of the alignment.
"Is cut and cover obsolete?"
Absolutely not. Some of the tunnel segments will be built as cut-and-cover. The portion of the West Side IRT destroyed in September is being rebuilt as cut-and-cover, although the cut part was already there. Many highways are being built as cut-and-cover. Portions of Boston's Big Dig are cut-and-cover. Cut-and-cover, for subways, is best suited to situations where there are not a lot of adjacent structures and surface disruption is tolerable.
"Any ideas or opinions?"
The SAS could always be built in a two over two alignment if money were available. There are many subways lines in the City that run in an over-under configuration, some of which have been built by deep-bore tunneling. The 63rd Street line is a good example.
So in sum, tunneling doesn't preclude four tracks.
MATT-2AV
Alex,
These are some excellent questions.
"The proposed Second Avenue Subway is mostly deep bore tubes. Is this why it's restricted to only two lines?"
Yes, the proposed Second Avenue Subway (SAS) is mostly deep bore tubes, but to assert that this is the reason why there is only a two track alignment is to confuse cause and effect.
The SAS, as proposed, has a two track alignment because of cost. Money for transit doesn't grow on trees these days, and the funds for a four-track alignment are simply not available at this time.
As I've always said, four tracks under Second Avenue are better than two tracks, but two tracks are better than no tracks.
"If it was designed using cut and cover would there be more room to build extra tracks?"
I assume you mean the express tracks, and again, the answer is no. Four tracks in a cut-and-cover arrangement cannot fit (side-by-side) underneath Second Avenue for a variety of reasons that I've gone into before. In short:
1) The Second Avenue trunk sewer occupies much of the space, actually forcing the two tracks over to the western side of the avenue. I must keep reminding people that this is a bigger obstacle than seems logical.
2) Massive underpinning of the adjacent structures would be required for a four track side-by-side alignment. This translates to increased cost (bad), and increased NIMBY objection (worse).
3) Second Avenue must remain in service for the duration of the construction. By building only two tracks on the Western aside of the avenue,
4) Yes, other narrower roads have four trakcs underneath them, but times have changed.
"The original IND 2nd System plans described it's Second Avenue Subway as 2 tracks Downtown, 4 tracks in Midtown, and 6 tracks Uptown."
There is a lot in the IND Second System plan that is now unnecessary. More transit isn't always better transit. This objection falls under the money doesn't grow on trees category.
"Are we still going to see overcrowding on the Lex?"
Probabaly. But any help is much appreciated.
"Is the Second Avenue Subway liable to become the next Cross-town line; mostly utilized by those living in proximity to it and not by the city as a whole?"
No. The Crosstown IND sees a lack of patronage because of the ridership patterns in the New York Metro Area. The vast majority of people are traveling from an outer borough or Uptown to a business center; Midtown or Downtown. The Crosstown-IND travels solely from an outer borough (Queens), to another outer Borough (Brooklyn). Downtown Brooklyn never picked up as a major business center. The few people travelling between outer boroughs and as a feeder line to other lines running through Manhattan use the Crosstown IND.
The SAS optimizes alignment according to the current ridership demographics, basically following, in parallel, to the East Side IRT. The SAS will serve to take current commuters (such as myself) off of the IRT, thus reducing boarding and departing on the IRT in Manhattan.
The Lexington Avenue IRT currently suffers from crush loading conditions during the rush. The SAS can be thought of as adding two additional tracks, except that these tracks are in a more optimal location -- the vast majority of Lexington Avenue Manhattan riders board from only one side (East) of the alignment.
"Is cut and cover obsolete?"
Absolutely not. Some of the tunnel segments will be built as cut-and-cover. The portion of the West Side IRT destroyed in September is being rebuilt as cut-and-cover, although the cut part was already there. Many highways are being built as cut-and-cover. Portions of Boston's Big Dig are cut-and-cover. Cut-and-cover, for subways, is best suited to situations where there are not a lot of adjacent structures and surface disruption is tolerable.
"Any ideas or opinions?"
The SAS could always be built in a two over two alignment if money were available. There are many subways lines in the City that run in an over-under configuration, some of which have been built by deep-bore tunneling. The 63rd Street line is a good example.
So in sum, tunneling doesn't preclude four tracks.
MATT-2AV
i say NO even out here in earthquake Co. ""cut and cover"" is being used
http://www.la-pasblueline.org/
photos taken from the gold line page ?
my photos are better than this !! ..........lol !!
Thanks for the photos and the link.
I like the design of the new Gold Line. Especially the Chinatown Station. How much do the Holly Street Village apartments predate the line's construction? The finished Memorial Park Station will look nice.
I noticed on the homepage the recognition given to the businesses on Mission Street in South Pasadena for their patience while construction caused traffic problems. Sure it didn't involve cut and cover but the effects were the same.
-Alex V.
thankz i am on top of this stuff & i have a webpage of my own ...
on this and all of the lines here that is if you R interested ...
??..........!!
you can also see my shotz on these webpages i own
took all of the pictures here also !!
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There is a new drainage tunnel being built in Denver as part of the T-REX project. It's a 12-foot tunnel, partly bored (under Broadway) with the rest cut-and-cover. The westbound lanes of Mississippi Ave. between Broadway and Santa Fe Dr. are closed and the street has a ditch excavated. The tunnel replaces a 42-inch pipe originally installed in 1958 when I-25 first opened. Over the years it has had to handle much more runoff than what it was designed for. Consequently, I-25 tends to flood beneath the Logan Street bridge during a heavy rainstorm resulting in a phenomenon known as "Lake Logan". During one particularly heavy downpour in 1985, I-25 was under six feet of water at that spot. The new tunnel, which drains into the South Platte River, will eliminate this problem.
A list of preserved North American electric railway equipment has been placed online, at
www.bera.org/roster-hicks.html
The list includes approximately 1,925 pieces of traction equipment from the United States, Canada and Mexico that are owned by museums and other preservation entities. All electric equipment, from streetcars to mainline electric locomotives and from track gauges wider than 3', is included in the list, as long as it was built for service in North America. The list includes both historical data, such as builder, vintage, and ownership history, and technical data, such as truck, motor and control system types. It is far from complete, however is though to be one of the more comprehensive lists of this type of equipment available. The list was compiled by Frank Hicks and the design and formatting of the website was done by Jeff Hakner. Any and all corrections or additional data are welcome; please e-mail comments and corrections to fullparallel@wideopenwest.com.
As a postscript to this Press Release, I would really appreciate any comments, corrections, impressions, suggestions, potshots or cheap jokes that come to mind when you take a look at the roster. Also, a BIG "thank you" to Jeff H. who did a considerable amount of electron-wrangling to get this list online!
Frank Hicks
Frank,
As a fellow northshoreline.com and SubTalk contributor (and CA&E fan), please accept my congratulations. Am I the first?
I can think of lots of cheap jokes, but they would probably be considered off-topic by a strict constructionist.
Seriously, cheap jokes aside, I am stunned! Of course, first I had to search for Chicago Aurora & Elgin preserved cars. This is a valuable research tool. I hope your site becomes a link in the Transfer Station section of this site, if that is amenable to both parties. Again, wow!
Agreed! I gave it a little test spin, and it's DELIGHTFUL! Going to go back and play with it some more later ... even includes the Delaware and Ulster. I'll have to talk to my buddy up north and get a listing of the Battenkill's stock ...
Thanks for the compliments, folks. There are a whole lot of inaccuracies in the list, and my hope in posting it online is that people will send me corrections. I've already gotten a raft of information correcting some inaccuracies regarding Baltimore cars. I'm even more interested in additions - I wasn't aware there were any electric cars at Batten Kill, but I'm always interested in Lack and RDG MU cars, and they can turn up anywhere. If you can find an original number from an MU car in your neighborhood, I would be delighted to add it to the list. Thanks!
Frank Hicks
I checked ... no electrics or former electrics on the Battenkill. Ah well ... one item determined at least. :)
I think I might be having some technical problems with it... When I open the page, I see a list with the heading "Only show cars currently owned by:" and another list below it with the heading "Only show cars currently or previously owned/operated by:". I highlight items on the lists, but there's no "Send" button or anything like that, and nothing happens. Am I missing something?
BTW, I'm using Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows NT Workstation 4.0 (Service Pack 6a).
It certainly looks like a thourough list, though... "A streetcar named dessert??" Keep up the good work.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Click "Submit Query" at the bottom of the page.
Weird... It seems to load up okay now, including the "Submit Query" bottom, but the first few times I looked at it, only the first two lists loaded. Strange.
Thanks,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Very nice Frank. You are welcome to augment the roster with photos from this site (I checked the SF MUNI section, we have photos of cars that you do not).
Thanks for the offer, Dave. I actually do have a lot of links to photos on nycsubway.org, especially stuff like New Orleans cars and Newark PCC's. Part of my problem is that I'm limiting my photo links to "current owner/condition" photos: in other words, no in-service pictures. All of the photo links picture the cars after retirement or as they are now, rather than what they looked like in service.
Frank Hicks
Yes, please send Frank your corrections. Embarassingly enough
there are even some errors in the Branford roster :) We'll do
an update as soon as the first wave of corrections hits. You're
also welcome to email me if you have problems that are related
to the site navigation as opposed to the actual database content.
It's written for HTML3.2 so it should work with "any browser".
I'm working with Frank to do some further database normalization
and then there may be some additional query modes.
This is a pretty ambitious undertaking by Frank. The only other
comprehensive roster, by Young, is now painfully out of date.
Could someone please post a hot link, my Yahoo can't find the site within a site.
Click www.bera.org/roster-hicks.html ( <- THERE ) and screw yahoo ... :)
Say Kirk,
I just tried your "Hot Link" and a copy of the message that appeared
follows, so I guess I'll be joining the many whom are screwed, that
do not link to this site.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not Found
The requested URL /cgi-bin/www.bera.org/roster-hicks.html was not found on this server.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apache/1.3.9 Server at talk.nycsubway.org Port 80
______________________________________________________________________
I'm not into this technical bunk as many, so I guess I'll not have
access.
;-) Sparky
Kevin, you didn't make that an absolute URL.
Try this:
http://www.bera.org/roster-hicks.html
Jeff,
THANKS. got it...
:-) Sparky
Whoops! Thought I'd grabbed it all ...
I see what happened now ... forgot the "http://" up front. Wonder how I managed to do that? Once again, sorry ...
Hey everyone, I was making a trip up to ditmars with R68A 5200 today and we witnessed some high thrill drama :-P not really but check this out. A group of youths (who happened to be black), aged 10-14 I'd say get on the train at Broadway. The ringleader of this group was really short and I'd say was 11. He dared this big kid who was 14 probably to either ride on the end of the car or do door surfing (stand on the loading platform thing stickin out from the doors, but facing inside from the outside. Stupidly, the kid accepts it and gets off at 30av and gets on the doors on the car behind us. From the kids looks through the door window looking through the next car at an odd angle they were entertained. All until the cord was pulled by the C/R (THE BRAKES ON THE 68's ARE WEAK!! It felt like a full service stop lmao...). We got word that the kid jumped off, landed on the catwalk and ran back to the station platform and exited the station. So we charge up again after a delay of about 10 mins. As we approach Astoria Blvd to my and R68A 5200's surprise a guy looking like a fisherman (tan vest, sunglasses and all) came out of nowhere, approached the ring leader, flashed his badge (UNDERCOVER NYPD!!) and took him off the train at Astoria Blvd (their destination was unknown but hopefully the police stationhouse and preferably the room where they teach common sense with brute force, he deserved it). The rest of the posse stayed on and rode till ditmars. Talk about a weird trip!
Wow talk about stupidity in motion. Was he planning on surfing the door all the way to the next stop? If he slips it's a long way to the street....
I had a strange, though less dramatic occurance on the A at Broad Channel today. As the train pulled in, the doors stayed closed, and I noticed a cop coming toward me. I got a little frightened because I had been taking pictures, and well who knows what they'll arrest people for now. Anywho, he looks in each car and doesn't find what he's looking for, so after he walks the length and gets back to the C/O, they talk and the doors finally open.
I had a Darwin candidate hope the back of the E train (R32) at 23rd Ely and ride the anticlimber. I waited until we were halfway through the tube before pulling the cord.
He did not run backup the hill for some reason.
That cop at 23rd St. did wonders in stopping this "terrorist".
Heh. Maybe we should form a "Darwin prevention society" and open up a website. Nah. :)
If a passenger sees someone doing this should they pull the cord?
(stand on the loading platform thing stickin out from the doors...
Threshold Plate
114th Precinct is only a couple of blocks away from the station so I would guess Astoria Blvd. is a good place to pick up subway delinquents.
=)
I need a timetable for the E trains that come from 179st. The current Timetable from may 2002 doesn't mention them.
im not sure of their exact times, but i do know they begin at 6am toward manhattan and end with the 8:11 i believe. toward queens is after 5 i believe
All I know there are 3 tph from 179 and to 179. I need to know when the leave 179.
im not sure of their exact times, but i do know they begin at 6am toward manhattan and end with the 8:11 i believe. toward queens is after 5 i believe
I think they have schedules posted in the stations on the pylons. They had them back in December.
NO, I need the offical list of departures on off peak hours. I know someone drives them, well unless they're ghost trains but I know that the signals get triped so I know I'am not dreaming.
All off-peak E trains have a scheduled north terminus of Jamaica Center.
Rode 7669 today. Front signs on 7661 and 7670 said "G"
I guess it goes from Brooklyn to the Bronx now? LOL!
Spoken messages did not work. Time and destination did work.
(4) Defect Zone To Woo
(4) 59 St
(4) 610pm
Repeat message. Great ride otherwise.
7656-7660 were still on the 6. Heard those are due for the 4 as well?
Had 6491 on the 5 this morning.
#7670 4 Lex Ave Express
I think you saw the G as a 6.
I saw that too today i saw a G instead of a 4 in front. must be a major defect lol.
Yep I was thinking it was a 6 too but I did get a look at the sign and it said G. And I rode 7661 on the 4 today and the signs on the inside and out worked with absolutely no problems whatsoever. What a difference a day makes.
#7661 4 Lexington Ave Express
UHOH guys get ready ,There's not 1 or 2 but 37 union grievances about the pick seems certain jobs were left off the sheets. I really hope there is a repick Cuz I got stuck on the G.I hate the G.
If there is a Repick on B Div. I hope they wait until after A Div. is done. I can't wait for this pick to be over.
My understanding is that there will be vacancy bids to recover the held yard jobs.
The CI et al grievance was satisfied by this. They are not happy as those held jobs do not have the holidays they wanted.
As for this other grievance is it from the A or B. OR is it about the dedicated announcer and discretionary jobs like in the Supt's office. Or did someone just goof on the pick sheets?
If these are regular grievances and not et al they might be settled after the NEXT pick.
Dedicated Announcer is not a Picked job. You have to submit a G2 to Jay Street and submit a Tape of your voice. Then you are chosen.
The other issue about Jobs in the SUPT office that may be it. The union kicked up about this a few picks ago and nothing happened.
I don't find anything wrongs with doing work in the SUPT office as long as I'm not in trouble.
There are some who want to make the Dedicated Announcers either pick jobs or reserved for Restricted people.
Or make the people in the Supt's office give up their pick as they already have a job. I think most of them don't pick anyway. Apparently there are lots of people that work all over the place.
They have picked jobs but don't work them.
And what is the rule? You are obligated to perform the assignment/shift/RDO you accepted.
You keep your same RDO and Shift.
I'm getting sleepy and I have to wake up for 6AM for my assignment so let me try to currect myself and get to bed.
Yes if your not needed you go back to your Picked assingment.
If you make a mistake that nobody catches or your seniority stinks, your burned in the pick UNLESS management needs you or you are able to get a shift/RDO change. We are all moving up every day. Word out is that 180th Street inspection work is too hard BUT with more R142s coming in, a breeze. Troubles is a little harder, your busy on the floor through the afternoon but get a slow/easy start in the morning. Retirement/reassignment/resignments/demise move us up. TA made 250 Car Inspectors permanent employees and our probation should be over soon. CI Peter
Thats when Dedicated Announcer Comes in to play or Construction Flagging.
DUH, I know that. They are getting OT out of seniority order (like every week). Make it a pick job for people QUALIFIED for it and only qualify the people they want. The TA gets who they want and OT is fairly distributed. Now I am a moderate and that would be my compromise, you know the more radicals want a more extreme version.
Why dod you hate the G. Is the only line you can put a car passed the mark and still be in must stations. I would have gone back to the G next pixk but I got early hours on the L number 1 and is cute 20-40min off my drive from NJ on my way in to work number 2.
Robert
Heh. LOVE your attitude ... Nice to know there's folks who don't take ENOUGH of a bite once they're past "two cars" wherever the HELL that is. :)
Are you kidding and even if you go past you might be OPTO and there is one less person to bang it in.
Plus the passengers have no idea where you are going to stop anyway.
Yeah, I *was* kidding ... I guess there's an upside to everything. I'm just a product of a different time. We banged in TRAINS, not our partners. :)
Well these days the train bangs itself in with the Crew. They even cut doors out on their own.
What's the fun in that? :)
One of the favorite parts of the old gig was whistling through stations until you found the winning station with the RCI hidden inside. After playing 20 questions, it was off to the ball pein hammer shooting gallery and perhaps an unscheduled layup and ABD. Ah, those were the days. Crew rooms had pools where you'd bet on who would make it all the way to the other end of the railroad. Double or nothing if they made schedule. Heh.
I think I told this story about no ABDs. A train was soking like a BBQ of old sneakers, the second car kept trying to charge the whole train constantly. All the Supt kept yelling 'NO ABDs".
ABD's are "bad stats" these days when you have to charge a car to "vandalism" so that the blame is properly placed, and not on YOUR superintendent. The strange mentality of "government accountability" or "who can we kick that won't kick us back" ... ABD's were a way of life in the 70's and nobody felt bad about charging it - hell, that was the whole REASON for "gap trains" ...
Lies, damned lies, and policy. But yeah, no surprise - an ABD would affect the MDBF's. :)
>>an ABD would
affect the MDBF's. :) <<
well THAT's the point! and after it becomes clear which barn can't even tighten a screw correctly then its time to either seriously overhaul the barn or have a major purge. I remain entertained by reports that the LIRR M-1's are at end of service life but MN's M-1's still have life.
They don't want to ABD anything these days or give skips. Troubleshooting is very easy these days. All you do is use you key to cut out the door unless its a Redbird then you get to go under the seat. I'm done with the Redbirds for me its R62A's and R142's.
Yeah, maintenance does have its benefits. Duct tape and bailing wire were company issue years ago and you had to replenish your supply at each end of the line. :)
Were you issued a ball peen hammer along with your brake handle when you became a motorman?:)
No sirree ... that'd be "out of title" and a trip downtown to answer the grievance for sure. :)
Bang, Bang Selkirks silver hammer came down upon his head.
Heh. TWU didn't raise no fool. Then I went to CWA, AFTRA, NABET, IATSE. Screw THAT noise. :)
IATSE AND NABET? Your right hand spend some time hating your left, or what? (This from a free-lance, non-union theatre techie)
Heh. Television engineering. NABET got sucked into IATSE lately too so the big battle between the electricians and the spot operators has calmed down a bit. But I was in *AFTRA* and NABET at the same time with the perennial "boy ... decide WHICH side of the camera you want to work and STAY there." :)
We installed repeaters and antennas at WTC...IBEW Local 3 demanded the 'hookup' and usually destroyed the pins inside of the Andrews Heliax connectors. Union squabbles...these guys still don't know how good they have it! 'Dot.com' billboards gone...thousands of qualified techs out of work. CI Peter
Local 3. Another group that can't deal with anything they don't use on a daily basis. Having made a large purchase at an electric supply house, I was repacking my bag; pulled out a 3.6 K dimmer card going in for repairs. Got asked what it was, then spent 15 minutes arguing the existence of a 6 x 3.6 K dimmer, especially those installable by non-union electricians.
Nothing cures IBEW faster than a MOGUL connector, applied pins out. :)
Oh, your screwdriver doesn't engage the maintainance switch?
Sorry I was busy last night and didn't have the time to do more than a fast one liner. We were expected to cut out our own doors and valves. It was when PIPES broke and an RCI had to come along, crimp the pipe so we could move and things of that order that had us whistline for help. You'd get an EARFUL if you weren't missing a wheel or blowing the newspapers back down the tunnel from a busted pipe. Extra points for FLAMES. :)
You spreaky Engrish and you get 'dedicated announcer.' Time heals wounds...my punchcard went down two notches. Car Inspectors from exam # 0051 got called up today from the first batch with paper in hands...WE ARE PERMANENT WE ARE PERMANENT WE ARE PERMANENT You guyz in RTO keep your trains in operation...we guyz in CED do our best to make it so.
Attrition, resignments, firings and retirement move us all up. I had my druthers about TrainDudes emails BUT 'in print' means the world to me....he was right.
'This is a number five train to Wakefield. This is the last stop...please leave the train. Pleeese do not lean on doors...pleeese do not hold doors...thankyouverrrry much.' CI peter
RANDY KENNEDYS LATEST
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, Joe Frank linked earlier to that on his group. Heh. As I posted to the private list:
I've got to crash one of THOSE. :)
I wonder if short-timers are welcomed? Sounds like some of the informal gatherings we have here of various railroad types, including an old BMT man (not Subtalk's Unca Dougie) who died over the winter here. There is nothing on the planet that's half as much fun as road warriors sharing stories of the steel ... and b*+ching about management's perpetual obsession with rectal cranial intercession. :)
When: It's this Friday (August 9th).
Where: Meet at head end of center platform of Jay Street (IND) at 6 PM
or Main Street Flushing Line at 4 PM.
Fare: One Fun Pass
See my original post for more detail.
Thurston's original post
I'll be at Main street Flushing at 4pm. Will you be in the usual place (new east entrance)?
Yes, I'll hang out at the N-E-W entrance on the East end just inside fare control, then walk toward the head end about 4 PM.
For those coming to meet me, try to catch an Red Bird Express East !
Found this on the Net:
The following is excerpted from a memorandum distributed to the NYCT
Executive Staff on July 30, 2002.
"The restoration of full service to the South Ferry Branch and the Seventh
Avenue Line will occur at 12:01 a.m. on Sunday, September 15."
The following service changes will also take place:
#1 trains will resume service to South Ferry as the south terminal and will
no longer serve Brooklyn or New Lots Avenue terminal. #1 and #9 trains will
resume a skip-stop pattern north of 137th Street in rush hours.
The former Cortlandt Street Station on the #1/9 will not be served.
#2 trains will resume express service between 96th Street and Chambers
Street.
#3 trains will resume service to stations between Chambers Street,
Manhattan, and New Lots Avenue, Brooklyn.
The Cortlandt Street Station on the N and R lines will also reopen on
Sunday, September 15, at 12:01 a.m.
That's good news! I know the MTA likes to start "new services" on Sundays, but wouldn't it have been nice to have it start on September 11, 2002.
BTW, I don't remember, did the 1/9 always run just at rush hours? For some reason I thought it ran longer than that.
Chris
I'm thinking the skip-stop ran 24/7 too.
From somoene who used to commute on the 1/9 right about the "edge" of rush-hour, 1/9 service did not run all day. If I was a couple minutes late, I would miss the last skip-stop train and had to go local from 242nd to 50th.
Chris C. Shaffer
South-bound skip stop ran from 0629 - 0928 & 1502 - 1747 (departures from VC)
North-bound skip stop ran from 0729 - 0932 & 1506 - 1852 (departures from Chambers St)
Funny, I don't know why I thought they ran more than that. I probably thought it ran more because I must have compared it to the joke of an hour they run the J/Z. The J/z should run at least 3 hours each way also.
I recall the 1/9 skip-stop running from about 630am-8pm before the 9 became rush hour only.
I recall the 1/9 skip-stop running from about 630am-8pm before the 9 became rush hour only.
So I'm not crazy! I thought I remember the 9 running during the day. When did they cut it to only rush hours?
At the very least it was 4.5 years ago, since when I started workinga s a C/R, it was a rush hour only thing. To the ebst of my knowledge, even when the 9 ran all day, it only made skip stops during the rush hours; the rest of the time it was basically a 1 with 9 signs.
the rest of the time it was basically a 1 with 9 signs.
That's probably what I remember. I know I always saw 9 trains at different times during the day on the line. I hardly ever ride the line north of 96th St, so I didn't know if they were running skip stop or not, but I know I used to see 9 trains in midtown during the day.
Just a matter of them not changing the signs I believe. I used to see mixed 1 and 9 signs on the same train all of the time. I don't recall skip-stops running during the day.
I do recall what the 9 was like. #9 Skip Stop Service ran weekdays 6:30AM to 7PM, from August 1989 to September 1994, before being reduced to rush hour only skip stop service.
August 1989 also saw the resumption of express service on the 7 line.
-Stef
Basing this on your claim, there was no express service on the 7 prior to August of 1989?!
There was major repair work done on the Flushing line from 1984 until about 1989, mostly trackwork. I remember when I returned in 1984 for the first time in four years, the Manhattan-bound local track was shut down from at least Junction Blvd. to 61st St. I had to take a Flushing-bound train from 82nd St. to Junction Blvd. and change there for a Manhattan-bound train, which ran express to 61st.
Really... Was it that bad in condition?
that line still seems so, IMO...
I'm not the person to ask. As I said, I had not been to New York in four years when I flew in on October 25, 1984. I missed the darkest period of the subway system, although I remember the graffiti-laden late 70s very well.
I said that 7 express service resumed after lengthy construction. From 1985-89, there was only local service, while repairs to the line were underway. Ironically enough, work would have to be done again when the TA dicsovered the Queens Blvd viaduct was deteriorating. From 1993-97, express service was limited to Main St-61 St.
-Stef
According to Todd's list of subway maps in the www.nycsubway.org FAQ, the August, 1994 map was the one that announced #9s will be running only during rush hours.
No, until 1994, 1/9 skip-stop was in effect middays.
and [of course you know]I agree with you 100 percent.
Allan, did you pull the information out of the MTA web site?
José
No.
I found it in the Usenet Newsgroup: nyc.transit
Great! They placed the start up at just the right time, in between the Jewish Holidays! (One week earlier and I wouldn't have been able to come to NYC for this.) So who's gonna be there to ride the first train into South Ferry on Sunday morning? I am definitly planning on being there, if I can work out the logistics of getting to NYC from Upstate NY. Hopefully we'll have the old "Manhattan Bridge Switch" crew and others.
Woudln't re-opening the line on 9/11/02 make more sence? Even if it's just limited service or special trains. I mean that is much more exciting and meaningful than some lame ass memorial service that basically re-hashes everything already done at the previous 8 or 9 menorial services. You could have a train of Redbirds run through the tunnel at the exact moment the tunnel was rendered out of service one year ago.
That's what I was thinking. It's only four says sooner! They should have the "cememonial" first train run right throught there at 8:51 A.M.(I think the right time) with service starting. The stations at South Ferry, and the other closed stations should also open at theat 8:51 time.
It should come through when the towers fell cause that's when the tunnel went OOS.
The line's coming back years ahead of when anybody figured it would, and you people are quibbling about four measly days??? Sheesh!!!!!!
David
Well, the way I look at it is, if it's going to be ready on Sept 15th for service, I'm sure it will be already done on Sept 11th.
Don't be too sure. With a timetable this tight, it's bound to be down to the wire, incentives or no incentives.
David
Right, they're still installing track and pulling cable. Still, I hope there will at least be test trains on the line on September 11th.
By the way, what are people's plans on the 11th? My wife was asking if I plan to go in to work. I'm not sure, but someone has to. Maybe I'll take some annual leave and leave early. It won't be a happy day, especially in Lower Manhattan.
I was one of the 4,500 who wrote in a suggestion, but it was probably rejected as too extreme. I proposed shutting the bridges and tunnels to Manhattan at 8:30 and shutting down the subways, with trains parked in stations, at 8:45 -- you had to be in Manhattan before that.
Then shutting down everything in Manhattan south of 60th Street -- including traffic on all the streets and trading on the stock exchange -- from the moment Tower 1 was hit at 8:48 until the moment Tower 1 fell at 10:30 or so. People would be encouraged to come out of their workplaces and on to the empty streets during that period, to participate in various remembrance activities.
Then, from that moment everyone would go back to work, as a symbol of moving on.
It seems that rather than have a CBD-wide shutdown for 1:45, for some it will be business as usual, while other things will be closed all day.
By the way, what are people's plans on the 11th? My wife was asking if I plan to go in to work. I'm not sure, but someone has to. Maybe I'll take some annual leave and leave early. It won't be a happy day, especially in Lower Manhattan.
Living near MacArthur airport, with its cheap flights on Southwest, I've been thinking about taking an inexpensive day trip. It's looking as if many people are staying away from the air on the 11th. Advance bookings are way down from what they'd normally be. Some people, however, are choosing to fly just as a way of showing that we can't be intimidated. I could get a round-trip to BWI for about $80, and then I could take the light rail into downtown and do some exploration (I've driven through Baltimore many times but never have actually spent any time there). Baltimore also has some things of transit interest, of course.
Whether this actually happens is uncertain, however, as I may be very busy at work on 9/11 (every other Wednesday I have to put together a weekly newsletter, and it's not certain yet whether that'll be my "on" week). Though I suppose you could say that having a productive workday is a a form of "protest" too.
Spirit Airlines is operating flight and giving away seats free of charge the whole day. I'll be in school.
I've been trying to get onto Spirit's site for almost three hours, no luck. It looks as if people will fly on 9/11 if the price is right, i.e. free!
It seems that rather than have a CBD-wide shutdown for 1:45, for some it will be business as usual, while other things will be closed all day.
As I mentioned in another reply, there's something to be said for a "business as usual" approach.
Spending the whole day (as opposed to a shorter period of time) in weepy remembrance would be a big mistake.
Who said anything about years? The original plan was to be finished by November 2002. Had this been the 1930's and had the PRR been in charge the line would have been been open on Sept 20, 2001.
Staten Island Advance, November 29, 2001:
"Subway Fix is at Least 3 Years Away" by Lukas I. Alpert (Associated Press), first paragraph:
"It will be at least three years before Staten Island Ferry riders can once again board the Nos. 1 and 9 subway lines after leaving the boats."
--------------------
New York Times METRO Section, January 4, 2002, Page B1:
"Subway Line in Attack May Reopen Much Earlier" by Randy Kennedy, first paragraph:
"Transit officials said yesterday that the subway line partially destroyed near the World Trade Center would be built and open again as early as November, more than a year earlier than originally planned."
-------------------
It's opening two months earlier than THAT.
I rest my case.
David
Yeah, and newspapers are always right. I was hearing on this board from transit sources that 1/9 reconstruction would probably be done w/in 18 months. The press releases were due to the MTA not wanting to be held to any "impossible" number.
The reduction in the time estimate is neither a miracle of collective resolve nor due to sandbagging to begin with.
In October 2001, the MTA did not know:
- How much tunnel roof was damaged north of Vesey or south of Liberty.
- How long it would take the debris removal crews to remove everything from on top of the tunnel so that they could start work on building a new structure.
By February 2002 both of those questions were answered and the MTA could come up with a good estimate.
The fact that the contractor has come in under even that good estimate is because of the natural tendency to put in some time for unexpected events, of which fortunately there were none. Also, of course, the contractor is giving this job full management attention because of its high visibility.
Who is that contractor?
We should have him/her fixup the Manny B next.
"Who is that contractor? "
One of the contractors who was already removing debris at the WTC. A major nationwide general contractor. I forget the name.
The contractors on the 1/9 were Tully Construction Co. and Pegno Construction Co. I believe the former had already been hired to remove debris (please correct me if you know differently).
Actually the original estimate last September was years. It was only around February that they started talking about November of this year. I think it is still aan unbelieveable thing that they are this far already.
And actually, yes the PRR was fast back in the early part of this century, but you have to remember that two 110 story buildings and all the other ones around there were lying on top of the subway. I don't think even the PRR could have had it open by Sept 20, 2001.......
The day after the great Broad St. station fire in 1923 all 400+ terminating trains were accomidated on temporary platforms and the station was completely re-opened w/in a week. Had this been the 1920's and had the PRR owned the line they would have blasted out the trench w/ explosives and had 1/9 service runing w/in 2 weeks. NIMBIES, rescue workers, victims and OSHA be dammed.
The day after the great Broad St. station fire in 1923 all 400+ terminating trains were accomidated on temporary platforms and the station was completely re-opened w/in a week.
That may be true, but I find it hard to believe that something like that could have been done with the 1/9 line. And why would it be needed to? Bowling Green is close to South Ferry, and Cortlandt was worthless anyway as what would you walk out to? And yes the 7th AVe line is not ideal right now, but the city wasn't exactly paralized without that segment of subway, that they would have to bore through the debris of the WTC to rebuild it faster. I think they did it in a record amount of time.
David,
I hear what you are saying, and no doubt am I pleased with the speed of this project. But at the same time, finishing the project four days earlier would be symbolic to all of New York City, especially Lower Manhattan. -Nick
true,but take into account that when the construction is completely finished they gotta run test trains through for a few days to make sure everything works fine before they begin service again.thats why they're saying 9/15.they ran test trains through the part of the Manny B thats currently being used days before 7/22 to make sure everything went right and that there would be no problems.so yes it would be very significant if South Ferry service resumed on 9/11/02 but the fact that they need to run trains through there first to make sure there arent any kinks that need to be worked out is why the date is set for 9/15.on that note,the next day,9/16 im gonna take a trip to the Staten Island Mall and on my way back home,use the 1 train.so if anyone wishes to come,let me know.
How about the first test train on the morning of September 11th......
i guess that could be possible,you never know
I see your point. I guess it would probably be too much to get the test trains running a few days before 9/11, which is understood. -Nick
In the words of Mel Allen, "How about that?"
WOW! That was quick! So I guess next subway map edition will be available between midweek and end of the month.
It's like the old saying:
Anything is possible when you put your mind to it.
If only the MTA could do all of their other repairs and projects in a likewise speedy fashion, we'd be living in a perfect world.
Tell me about it. Now lets see what happens with the 2nd Ave subway.
2nd ave subway? what about the CI station repairs? why does that take 37 months?
If it had been possible to shut down Stillwell Terminal for the entire duration of the project, it would have been completed much sooner than its ultimate completion time. Even during the upcoming 18-month shutdown, part of the station will be open at any given time (W service will go platform-hopping, using whatever's available). Such a shutdown would not have been doable from a political point of view.
David
(If it had been possible to shut down Stillwell Terminal for the entire duration of the project, it would have been completed much
sooner than its ultimate completion time. Such a shutdown would not have been doable from a political point of view.)
Someone should inform the public the price they pay for things that are not doable for a political point of view. Beginning next Memorial Day, a huge sign should go up at Stillwell: "If you had been willing to take a bus to the next station for 12 months, this station would be done right now."
Good thought. Enough money might have been saved with a maximum-force construction project and no service to Stillwell, to pay for a circulator bus to take people from Coney Island to the next stop on the line. Save a couple or 3 million and you can even afford to put an elevator into that next stop.
The target date for completion is February 2005, or so the sign says. That's quite a long way off.
Not to take away anything from the achievement, but it shows what can happen when:
a. There's no opposition from the public
b. There's nobody and nothing in the way
c. Crews can work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week
d. There's a pot of money that's not only dedicated, but unlimited and available immediately
e. There's not just the political will to do it, but a mandate.
David
"d. There's a pot of money that's not only dedicated, but unlimited and available immediately"
I agree with your points, David..but point D is the hardest to come by. I'm pretty sure a lot of this money for the repairs is from the federal government, and it's understandable why. The scenario of 9/11 is one-of-a-kind, even though I am hoping there will be funding for the Second Avenue Subway. -Nick
Heck, I thought of two more reasons!
7. They went back to the original 1915-era design, rather than re-engineering the whole thing. (Of course, a new project would have to be engineered from scratch.)
8. They circumvented the normal contracting process to get the thing up and running in a hurry.
David
THANK YOU !!!!
ALRIGHT!!!!!! IM SURE THE 2 CREWS I KNOW WILL APPRECIATE THE 7AV EXPRESS AGAIN, AND I CANT WAIT TO SEE THE 9 AGAIN. ESPECIALLY THE LOOKS ON PEOPLES FACES. NOT TO MENTION SOUTH FERRY STATION!
The F/N/Q/W changes were scheduled to begin a week earlier. Will that date be changed so all the service changes can take place at once?
Also, a GO has the north end of the 1 reduced to shuttle bus service until September 16 at 5am, so the 1 won't really be back to normal until 29 hours after South Ferry reopens. It would be nice if the GO could end 29 hours early or at least be pushed off a week.
I didn't say it, Don Phillips did in the Washington Post...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47764-2002Aug5.html
I wonder what the MDBF on the Acela is. I bet you it's worse than the performance on even the Bombardier R-142's.
Gunn said the problems range from the serious -- one Acela electronic braking system froze up and blocked other traffic north of Union Station -- to less serious, such as restroom doors that sometimes stick and trap passengers inside.
"You'd think that after 170 years of railroading, you could have a crapper door that works," Gunn said.
Then, the next Acela train from Washington also broke down at New Carrollton. But an experienced technician was aboard and managed to get the second train running.
I wonder if this is to do with the problematic power supply substation around New Carrollton.
AEM7
There was an average of one cancellation or en-route breakdown for mechanical reasons every day.
If that is the case, we can calculate the MDBF -- Acela sets are currently running a combined diagram:
* 8 round-trips daily NYP-WAS
* 8 round-trips daily BOS-WAS
Total mileage per day (for the entire fleet) = 467*8 + 232*8 = 5,592
This would seem to suggest that the mean distance between failure is below 6,000 miles -- wow, the Bombardiers are 10 times more reliable.
AEM7
Damn, and I thought Bombsuckier's problems were limited to the R142's.
If there are 18 trainsets doing this, wouldn't it be 108,000 MDBF?
No, the 18 trainsets don't EACH take 8 round trips a day. There is a TOTAL of 8 round trips per day on each leg.
That is a FLEET MTBF. MTBF is calculated per trainset and we don't know how many trainsets are in revenue service at any given time and how many trips each one makes.
Yes, that is how you calculate fleet MDBF. But fleet MDBF is the only MDBF that's worth anything. You can calculate MDBF for any individual set until the cows come home but it will never be statistically significant. With just 18 sets, even the fleet MDBF may not be such a great indicator of reliability, but it's better than nothing.
That number, 6,000 miles, is an MDBF figure for the fleet, and if you believe the Central Limit Theorem applies in this case, it's also the MDBF for each trainset.
AEM7
This would seem to suggest that the mean distance between failure is below 6,000 miles -- wow, the Bombardiers are 10 times more reliable.
You are comapring a car MDBF to a trainset's MDBF. There are 10 Bombardier's in an IRT trainset - each with a statistically independent MDBF of 60,000 miles (or whatever number the TA reports). As a 10 car ensemble the train has a MDBF of approximately 1/10 an individual car's. So, the failure rates for the Acela and IRT trainsets are roughly comparable.
The only difference is that Amtrak is disappointed with the figures and the TA thinks the performance is great.
OK, your point is taken. But:
each with a statistically independent MDBF of 60,000 miles (or whatever number the TA reports). As a 10 car ensemble the train has a MDBF of approximately 1/10 an individual car's. So, the failure rates for the Acela and IRT trainsets are roughly comparable.
Not so. A failure on a subway car does not take the whole trainset out of service. A failure on an Acela vehicle usually causes the entire trainset to be taken out of service (I've yet to see an Acela car which is "locked out of use"). Would someone correct me if I am wrong.
AEM7
If a trailer car is malfunctioning, it can be removed (if cars can be added to a trainset, they can also be removed. See recent news articles). If a power unit is malfunctioning, the whole train is indeed out of service, since Acela isn't designed for use with cab-control trailer cars.
If a trailer car is malfunctioning, it can be removed (if cars can be added to a trainset, they can also be removed.
Yes, that was a design feature at Amtrak's insistence. However, there's not usually time in practice to remove a car before a trainset is sent out the yard. If a car is dud, the train is cancelled and the trainset worked on. Especially with a non-uniform fleet like they do now, swapping cars around within the fleet would mean disaster.
AEM7
I agree; this non-uniform development bothers me.
Something similar has been the case with the US Air Force. Small fleets of older, very specialized aircraft (example: SR-71 Blackbird) end up behaving each as a "one of a kind" to flight crew and maintenance crew. In the context of its Air Force service, it doesn't matter much (the mission is vital; you usually don't need more than one or two airplanes at a time anyway and there are nine or so available; the flight crew isn't complaining; and there are no other airplanes available to do the mission nearly as well). In the context of Amtrak, it matters a lot.
Or to put it another way, for every 60K Acela car-miles, there is a failure sufficiently severe that all passengers on the train are significantly inconvenienced (serious delays, etc.). For example, the failure of the toilet door to close is not a failure that matters to operation of the train, even if it's annoying, and is not counted in the 1 failure per 60K car-miles.
On the other hand, for every 60K Bombardier subway-car miles, something called a "failure", that hasn't been precisely defined (or if it has, I missed it) happens. I don't know how many of those failures actually are noticed by passengers in terms of serious delays, and how many just result in some unseen juggling in the yard.
That is, the subway failure rate may or may not include less important types of failures.
On the other hand, for every 60K Bombardier subway-car miles, something called a "failure", that hasn't been precisely defined
Somebody on here posted that Bombardiers had been calling things "failures" even though it may not result in the train being taken out of service immediately. I think the Acela stats of one cancellation per day really is quite poor. If the NYCTA had a fleet of 18 sets (i.e. 180 vehicles) and they had one set defect per day, I think they would be pretty upset. If all those sets ran on one line, that means at least at some point during the day you will have a catastrophic delay. You simply cannot operate a subway with the failure rates that the Acelas are showing up to be. The more I think about it, the more I think the 60,000 miles is in fact a SET MDBF, not a VEHICLE MDBF. If the SET MDBF on the R142's is really 6,000 miles, I don't see how the TA would survive. Those sets rack up at least 150 miles daily, and with a fleet of 20 sets and MDBF of 6,000 that would be one failure every two days. Is R142 equipped lines experiencing catastrophic delays every other day?
AEM7
I believe that my questions regarding the TA's MDBF calculations is one of the reasons that Mr. Train Dude no longer reports this statistic to this newsgroup. I questioned the calculation and the definition of a "failure" in great detail. Mr. Train Dude essentially stated that a "failure" for this measure was a failure to complete a trip. He also said that the calculation was the total number of car miles divided by the number of failures and number of cars - average vehicle MDBF.
My interest had been in pointing out whether it was appropriate to compare the MDBF figures from the pre and post linkbar days.
With dedicated sets of 4 or 5 cars, the subway operation is very similar to a locamotive, in terms of failures and repair statistics.
Regarding a the implications of the 60K MDBF figure, I have used the following analogy. The average person will travel 10 miles each way on the subway or 20 miles per day. Given that the train has a MDBF of 6000 miles this means that the average person will be on a train with a failure once every 300 days. Given that there are 250 business days, this works out to once a year.
He also said that the calculation was the total number of car miles divided by the number of failures and number of cars - average vehicle MDBF.
That statistic doesn't make sense.
MDBF of a given piece of equipment (a vehicle or a set) is the mileage divided by the number of failures. For a fleet of one vehicle, the MDBF = veh-miles/failures.
For a fleet of ten vehicles (or one set), MDBF = veh-miles/failures = (veh-mile-per-veh * fleet-size)/set-failures
What you're saying is that the failure of a single vehicle in a set will take the set out of service, thus the probability of set-failure is the (probability of veh-failure) * veh-per-set since P(veh1 fails) is assumed to be independent of P(veh2 fails), etc.
But of course, in a set, veh-miles of the fleet is also veh-miles-for-each-veh * veh-per-set. Since veh-per-set is in both the numerator and the denominator, it cancels out. (I think)
We have to be careful when making MDBF calculations that we use the veh-miles and not the set-miles. Or, if we are calculating set MDBF, we have to use set-miles and divide the result by the SET fleet size and not the VEHICLE fleet size.
So in your original post you erred by stating that I should use the VEHICLE fleet size for a statistic that is calculated based on SET mileage.
In short:
Veh-MDBF = Veh-miles/veh-failure
Set-MDBF = Set-miles/set-failure
Since the statistics we have from Amtrak is one of set-failures and not veh-failures, we can only calculate Set-MDBF, for which I correctly used Set-miles. The P(Veh-failure) on Amtrak is meaningless, because the Acela is essentially a locomotive-hauled train, thus the failure of the locomotive would result in the set being out of service. That is one of the arguments against locomotive-hauled trains, that the LOCOMOTIVE needs to attain a MUCH lower failure rate than individual MU cars in order to maintain the same SET reliability.
AEM7
No, Stephen is right, at least about the math. If there is say
a door problem on car 5004 which is in a train 5001-5002-5003-5004:
5005-5006-5007-5008 (I'm making up the numbers, of course), and
that problem causes the train to be taken out of service or ABD'd,
the defect gets charged to 5004 ONLY.
Link set MDBF is not calculated. Only individual car MDBF.
Also, a defect such as a hot car, broken PA, door problem that
is overcome on the road, etc. does not get charged.
As such, individual car MDBF does predict how often a pass^H^H^H^Hcustomer will experience a train being taken
out of service. This is independent of how sets are linked.
During times when we are short of cars (like now), link sets,
it can be argued, have a negative effect on train availability.
. Given that the train has a MDBF of 6000 miles this means that the average person will be on a train with a failure once every 300 days.
I disagree with this assessment. A vehicle failure does not necessarily render a set failure. You need to use the set failure rates. 6,000 miles is incorrect. You either divide the set mileage by the set failure rate, or vehicle mileage by the vehicle failure rate. You can't divide the set mileage by the vehicle failure rate and call that an MDBF. It's nothing.
AEM7
I still think Gunn is a ass, But maybe Amtrak should take all the Acela Express Trainsets out of service and fix all the bugs so this type of problem woun't happen again, or take a few out of service at a time.
I still think Gunn is a ass
I asked Dave what he thinks of you, and he doesn't.
persona non grata.
Actually, Gunn may be just the right person for Amtrak right now. Amtrak needs help. Just look at what he did for the subway when he was in charge of the New York City subway. He really did a lot for cleaning up the disaster the subway was in the 70's.
To help Gunn get moving, let's cover all the Amtrak trains with grafitti. Then he'll clean things up(maybe paint the coaches white).
maybe paint the coaches white
Nah...maybe David Gunn Red (aka Redbird Red).
To add another thing, I drive Amtrak's Acela trains on Microsoft Train Simulator and experience the same problems as mentioned. I know it's only a simulator but you gotta love the realism. Trust me, my computer or the program is not the problem. For anyone who has MTS, try running Acela at 160 mph, and hit the emergency brake while at top speed. When recharging the brakes, the train barely moves.
OH SUCH REALISM.
I love it.
Who asked you???? That's my opinion!
And on what is this opinion based?
David
I was very interested in what chuchubob thought of your opinion. AEM7
At a cost of what? The Acela has had it's time, it's clearly not working, it's time to cash in while we still can. See if we can unload the Acelas on somebody (Didn't Mexico have an electrified line? Perhaps China?), spend whatever we make on them on ROW improvements. The Acelas were clearly a mistake, we do not have the demand or even the infrastructure to readily support such an investment. It was claimed that Acelas would, "create demand," and while yes, ridership has risen on the NEC, one has to wonder what the figures would look like without 9/11, or even if the AEM-7s had just been left to their own business.
A much better path would have been AEM7 pulled Metroliners with new Coaches, incorperating features from the Acela design, such as the seats and large windows (perhaps structurally similar to the Comet V, or de-MU'ed M7), but clearly minus the power cars. The coaches would be good for 186 or so MPH, so that at a future time, HHP-8s or Class 101s (German ALP-46s), could equal the current Acela speeds at a time when the NEC right of way was more ready for such operations.
Oh well, thats hindsight for you. Is there still time to go back and make the mistake right?
"At a cost of what? The Acela has had it's time, it's clearly not working, it's time to cash in while we still can. See if we can unload the Acelas on somebody (Didn't Mexico have an electrified line? Perhaps China?), spend whatever we make on them on ROW improvements. The Acelas were clearly a mistake, we do not have the demand or even the infrastructure to readily support such an investment."
Acelas have been a technical nightmare, it's true. But you didn't read the article carefully, and you also appear to be unfamiliar with the NEC's riderships.
The original Metroliner trainsets, introduced to service by the Penn Central, had a lot of teething problems but were a smashing success with the public. Eventually, pulled trains took over and Amtrak indeed built an impressive ridership over the years.
Today, even with faulty equipment, Amtrak is kicking airline ass from one end of the corridor to the other. Acela, as a passenger vehicle, has been very successful in building ridsership. But Amtrak may lose that ridership if it doesn't address the mechanical problems with the trains. 9/11 helped accelerate that process, but Amtrak created it.
The Acelas did prove that a high-speed train can work on the corridor. There's no issue with the tracks (we need more four-track configurations everywhere, though) but there is an issue with old catenary, now being replaced.
There are problems, yes. Had the trainsets worked more reliably from the outset, however, the only way this debate would have happened is if Delta Airlines paid a lobbyist to sign up on nycsubway.org and start one. They are slimy enough to do that, of course. I've seen them do similar things first hand.
And Ishould add, there is an issue with signals. Signals need improving.
"There's no issue with the tracks"
What about the bridges over the rivers in CT? Aren't they a significant area of slowdown?
Yes, but there's nothing you can do about that. You're not going to get rid of those bridges. The track itself doesn't impede you that much.
On the other hand, you can replace catenary that would separate if the train exceeds 80-90 mph. Metro-North is doing that. I want them to do it faster.
A much better path would have been AEM7 pulled Metroliners with new Coaches... perhaps structurally similar to the Comet V,
The Horizon coaches were both a structural and aesthetic disaster. No matter what you do to a Horizon coach, it will always be a commuter car. The Viewliner shell is a lot better than the Horizon, both in terms of design and in terms of structure.
NEC has no need to go to 180mph or even 150mph. There are too many stops.
AEM7
"NEC has no need to go to 180mph or even 150mph. There are too many stops."
Not so. With a properly working Acela, Amtrak could offer a daily non-stop express between NYP and Washington with a travel time of less than two hours. Or itcan offer half the usual stops on a 2 hour and change schedule.
More important, though, than the top speed is for Acela to take curves reliably at 110-120 mph. The Metroliner had to slow to 75 mph for that.
With a properly working Acela, Amtrak could offer a daily non-stop express between NYP and Washington with a travel time of less than two hours.
Incorrect. There are no demands for it. New Carrollton, BWI, Philadelphia, and Newark are all big demand generators. Not to stop the train would be insane. The passenger boardings out of New Carrollton, BWI, and Philly combined are something like 2.5 times the number that boards out of Washington Union Sta. Many who board at Washington in fact disembark at Newark. You cannot afford to ignore those secondary markets.
High speed rail makes economic sense only where there are no demands en-route -- inconsistent with the economic geography of the NEC.
AEM7
"Incorrect. There are no demands for it. New Carrollton, BWI, Philadelphia, and Newark are all big demand generators. Not to stop the train would be insane. The passenger boardings out of New Carrollton, BWI, and Philly combined are something like 2.5 times the number that boards out of Washington Union Sta. Many who board at Washington in fact disembark at Newark. You cannot afford to ignore those secondary markets."
I'm not ignoring them. That's why only a few trains would be non-stops.
If there were no demand for it, airplanes would not fly with passengers from New York to Washington. Your assertion treats the entire corridor with one simplistic model; so you're ignoring some of the important travel patterns. The non-stop Amtrak express in under two hours will siphon more people off those airplanes.
If you offer reduced stop service (for example, Penn-Newark-Philly-Washington, and/or Penn-Newark-Wilmington-Wash or Penn-Newark-Baltimore Wash) you could cater to some of these patterns without hurting your other business.
I'm not ignoring them. That's why only a few trains would be non-stops.
The driver behind train choice has been demonstrated time and again to be the departure time and not the number of stops. If I want to travel at 5pm, a non-stop train leaving at 4.30pm is no good!
The only circumstances under which a non-stop train would make sense is that if you have a peak demand within a particular time window (say between 4.30pm and 5.30pm) which would fill more than one train, cubed out at 12 coaches, then you might consider adding a non-stop to cater for some of the peak load. In fact the better way to handle this is to price higher between 4.30 and 5.30 so some of the passengers gets spilled over to an earlier or later train. The business case for non-stops, especially on a train where a stop only adds 3 minutes to the journey time, is really quite poor. If you look at the airline demand models, you will see that it takes quite a lot of local O-D demand to run a hub-bypass flight -- a hub by-pass saves something like 1.5 hours!
The main point I am trying to make here is that a train is not a plane, and therefore the economics driving station stops are quite different. If that plane that flies from DCA to NYP could stop and pick up passengers in Philly with only a 3-minute penalty, I bet you the airlines would do precisely that, and go to larger planes to cut costs. A train can carry some 600 passengers while the typical narrow body carries only 200. The economics are different.
AEM7
"The only circumstances under which a non-stop train would make sense is that if you have a peak demand within a particular time window (say between 4.30pm and 5.30pm) which would fill more than one train,..."
And the best evidence that you are correct about this is that Amtrak does not in fact run any non-stops from NYP to either Wash, Bos, or Albany. Why not? Because they've tried trains with very few stops and have found they can't fill them.
"And the best evidence that you are correct about this is that Amtrak does not in fact run any non-stops from NYP to either Wash, Bos, or Albany. Why not? Because they've tried trains with very few stops and have found they can't fill them"
With older service patterns and technology. Acela's appearance changed everything. Now Amtrak can actually offer a service which would fill the trains even on a non-stop.
When a piston-engined airplane is replaced by a jetliner, you have to re-examine all the assumptions you made about marketing your service.
With older service patterns and technology. Acela's appearance changed everything.
Actually, if you look through Amtrak's schedule recast since the introduction of Acela, you will see that stops have been quietly added to such departures as the 5.15pm from Washington. Precisely for this reason.
If you look at Great NorthEastern Railway's response post-Hatfield, when they were short of equipment, you will see that all the trains they cut were the expresses.
Express non-stops lose money.
AEM7
"The driver behind train choice has been demonstrated time and again to be the departure time and not the number of stops. If I want to travel at 5pm, a non-stop train leaving at 4.30pm is no good! "
But a non-stop train leaving at 4:54 would work out - or make that train 5:00, with the other one leaving very shortly after. The goal is, again, to add market segments not currently being served. It can be done.
"The only circumstances under which a non-stop train would make sense is that if you have a peak demand within a particular time window (say between 4.30pm and 5.30pm) which would fill more than one train, cubed out at 12 coaches, then you "
OK. And if you offer the right service, that demand will appear - taken off of other carriers.
The non-stop express, run properly, will save much more than three minutes. The Express Metroliner was able to do NYP-DC in 2 hours 30 minutes (assume for the moment that signals and catenary cooperate). This is in a train which can do 125 mph maximum and 75 mph around curves.
Now use a train which can do at least 150 (and possibly higher) and can take a curve at 110-120 mph. Eliminate at least 5 stops, possibly 6 (Amtrak may need to play with this some) and you're saving a lot more than 3 minutes per stop. The ecpnomics work out very, very well.
Now, I would be the first to insist that the regular express (making stops) should improve as well. Acela should be capable of adhering to a 2.5 hour or less schedule even while making stops.
Of course, everything on the NEC must be improved: signals, catenary, passenger loading procedures; making a higher % of ROW 4 tracks, dropping another tunnel under the Hudson especially for Acela and Metroliner use and emngineering it for higher speeds than the current bridge and tunnel combination.
It's a little like improving your blood pressure. You have to diet and exercise; you have to cut down on salt; you have to remember to take your medicine. You have to do it all. If Amtrak took care of all the ROW issues as outlined above, you would see improved service even without Acela. Acela would then take service to a whole new level.
I understand that you do not like David Gunn because he does not think highly of Acela Express trainsets. When you grew older, read more about him, and see the whole picture of railroad business, you will appreciate him more.
Chaohwa
That is very true. I believe the NYC subway would not be as far along as it is today if it hadn't been for David Gunn in the 80's. The subway was a disaster and needed someone like him to clean it up. I'm sure he may be able to help Amtrak.
Actuall I know what he done in the past, But I still think he's a ass.
When you grow up, you will appreciate what people can do. David Gunn is a professional railroad man who has a proven track record. And, he loves a challange, that's why the Amtrak job coaxed him out of a retirement.
Perhaps, when you reach 25 or so you may discover that you don't know everything, and most importantly, when to keep your opinions to yourself. When you have the experience to back up your opinions people pay attention to you.
when you reach 25 or so you may discover that you don't know everything
Do I still know everything? I'm 23.
"Do I still know everything? I'm 23. "
You may be starting to lose it. By the time you're 26 you'll be approaching an asymptote at which you'll know nothing at all.
:0)
Ok I don't care I still think he's a ass regardless on what he has done in the pass.
When I was 15 I kept my mouth shut and learned everything I could about streetcars and transit. A kid who shot his mouth off about things which he knew little or mothing about was considered a "smart mouthed brat" and usually given the bum's rush.
I suspect you are the ass. Remember, being behind a keyboard isn't like being face to face. Attitudes like yours can get you a punch inna mouth in certain circles.
I think I'm going to add you to my killfile. At least I won't have to read your drivel unless I want to, and why would I want to do that?
When I was 15 I kept my mouth shut and learned everything I could about streetcars and transit. A kid who shot his mouth off about things which he knew little or mothing about was considered a "smart mouthed brat" and usually given the bum's rush.
You obviously wasn't the brightest one on the block. Although I disagree with AcelaExpress2005's comments about a very respected transit manager, I did not label AcelaExpress2005 as a brat or anything else. The kid has an opinion and he isn't afraid to voice it. His reasoning may not be very good, but that will develop as he ages and takes more things into consideration.
I have utterly no respect for those who don't have an opinion. You sound like one of them.
It is people like AcelaExpress2005 who will one day come up with things like "Let's put man on the moon". He's innovative, is capable of independent thinking, and is not afraid of being ridiculed.
Before you start lecturing me, let me remind you that having an opinion not voiced is as good as not having one. After all, that is how government works. Those who shout the loudest are often heard more than others.
You deserve the bum's rash for trying to stifle his creativity and imagination. He's a kid.
AEM7
I suspect your a ASS, I'm not afraid of nobody, I ain't afraid to go face to face with someone I think is a ass, like you! Personally I don't give a damn on what you did when you were 15, go head add me to killfile I really don't give rat's ass. Period.
>>Ok I don't care I still think he's a ass regardless on what he has done in the pass.<<
David Gunn is an ass regardless of what he did in the past ? Please explain.
Bill "Newkirk"
David Gunn is not an ass.
But past performance is no predictor of the future, either. Even the best econometric models say that they assume no external shocks. If AcelaExpress2005 considers something David Gunn has done during his tenure at Amtrak a "mistake", then he's perfectly entitled to criticize that *action*, regardless of who David Gunn was or what he accomplished at the NYCTA.
However, I would not attack the *person* for the person's actions. You can criticize one's actions, but the person isn't an ass. He is doing what he believes is the best, in good faith. If you can prove that he's *delibrately* making a mistake, then you can call him an ass. In terms of passenger rail, the "ass" title is more fitting to Alfred Perlman. But even Perlmann did a lot for freight on the New York Central System. He's not an "ass" -- he was just "an ass to passenger rail".
AEM7
There's the rub. Twice now I've asked "Acela" WHY he thinks David Gunn is an ass, and twice he hasn't responded.
If "Acela" has a reason, let him voice it. I'm certainly willing to take the time to read what he has to say and think about it, and I suspect I'm not the only one. I may even find myself agreeing (at this point I have no position on the issue). However, an opinion without anything to back it up is worthless.
David
I understand. You may feel differently when you are 25.
Chaohwa
Too bad you think that way, just because he doesn't think the Acela name was a great idea. He dumped his security detail, hates his limo, and he rides the Acela and TALKS to the people that make Amtrak works. Trains magazine reports he is very popular with the rank and file and they are proud to "Work under the Gunn".
Well he is trying to make the Acela work, as well as getting the Superliner cars fixed despite there is no funding authorized to repair them.
Well, I can't convert you over, but you are in the minority as a Gunn disliker (I did not say Gunn hater). Live with it! Gunn is here to stay.
You know what, This was my fault, I shouldn't called Gunn a ass, even though I don't approve of some of the moves that he makes, I called him a ass because he doesn't like the Acela, And I'm in love with the Acela Express(LOL). So my fault if I caused a flaming war on Gunn.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
The truth is Amtrak needs a person like David Gunn right now. He is very experienced in his field. All opinions aside, sometimes you have to see other people's good points, as well as their faults, and no he isn't perfect. But just because someone doesn't agree with you or like the things that you really like, (like the Acela), doesn't make them an ass.
Great post and attitude.
I do have one piece of bad news, though: No matter how much I love my pet donkey, no matter how loyal he is to me and how hard he pulls his weight, he will always be an ass. :0(
(I don't have a pet donkey)
>>The truth is Amtrak needs a person like David Gunn right now.<<
David Gunn may be the only man who can save Amtrak.
Bill "Newkirk"
Not every train is perfect. The Acela concept was a good idea but there were some mistakes made along the way. Overall, it is a very nice train and a very fun travelling experience. Then again, Amtrak could have made some different moves and had an even better train.
Amtrak spent an amazing amount of money on advertising for the Acela when it was first planned. I remember a few years ago, they rented entire interiors of subway cars also. I don't know if that was money well spent or not - the whole ad campaign. The ads were interesting, but I was a railfan, and at first didn't know what they were for. There was no clue that it was for train service. They said things like "Acela is coming" and had the "cloud" like logo floating around on the ads. Now if me as a railfan had little idea what it was about, think of your average "commuter". And these ads were everywhere, not just in the subway.
I do wonder if Amtrak would have found it more productive and cost-effective to introduce the new trains as the Super Metroliner...
Open to debate, certainly.
That meant the advertising worked. The idea was to get people curious throughout the whole time the train was being built and then finally, once it came out, start telling people what it was. On December 10 of 2000, the still ignorant finally got a clue, an ad was run reading "Tomorrow when you wake up, you will find your brand new train set." It showed a wrapped model train engine on a bedspread.
Actually, I was saying the idea of calling all NEC trains Acela something was not too bright and even the idea of changing the Metroliner to Acela may have not been either, but by phasing out the Metroliner name, Amtrak could hope that people realize something new and improved was being introduced.
They said things like "Acela is coming" and had the "cloud" like logo floating around on the ads
I think Amtrak needed to stop being invisible, and a new brand name and an aggresive campaign was a good way to get people to notice. You noticed it. The point isn't what the product is. The point is for people to notice.
Union Pacific just launched a "building America" campaign on prime time TV. Half the people watching it don't know what the hell Union Pacific is. But it gets the name out there. Eventually they figure out that Union Pacific runs trains and they figure out that their fruit in their grocery store came to them in an Union Pacific train. The next time they see something that says Union Pacific, they notice. That in itself is worth the cash.
AEM7
Union Pacific just launched a "building America" campaign on prime time TV. Half the people watching it don't know what the hell Union Pacific is. But it gets the name out there. Eventually they figure out that Union Pacific runs trains and they figure out that their fruit in their grocery store came to them in an Union Pacific train. The next time they see something that says Union Pacific, they notice. That in itself is worth the cash.
Norfolk Southern had a similar TV ad campaign a couple of years ago. The ads featured the company's horse logo morphing into various industrial commodities, as a way of showing the type of freight they carry. It was a clever campaign, more so than UP's.
From my viewpoint, Gunn feels the $$ should have beeb better spent than to hire some marketing firm to come up with the brand name of Acela. It could have been Super Metroliner or VFT (very fast train). That could have been done in-house
I'm happy to see that you are maturing, admitting fault to a statement you made.
BTW, Dave Gunn pulled all the 870 buses and gave them back to Grumman. With the Acela, he wants to keep them and have the vendor correct the problems.
The idea of calling the train the Acela Express was not all that stupid. It made it very clear there was something different about this train in comparison to the Metroliner. My problem with the Acela marketing scheme is that every NEC train is now Acela something. People tell me "I am taking the Acela" and I have told people quite a few times that is not the Acela you are on, that is the Acela Regional and then explain the differences and why they are both called Acela. To have the Acela (Express may not be needed in this scenario) running with the Northeast Direct may have been a better idea.
The Grumman Flxibles were a lot easier to replace than Acela would be...
Notice how Gunn dosen't like how the trainsets are "overpowered", but seems to like the fact that he can add 2-4 cars per train w/o needing new engines. I think that the trainsets were designed with an eye toards future passenger demands which is a smart thing to do.
I found that comment a little strange. I think that he was probably making an off-hand comment without really thinking it through. He's like that, he talks openly. North American railroaders do not generally regard something being "overpowered" is a bad thing. I think he dislikes the other aspects of the Acela more than the mere horsepower rating on its power cars.
AEM7
This makes any ROW enhancements Amtrak can accomplish - signalling, CT catenary replacements, expansion of 4 track territory, new Hudson tunnels - all the more important.
I don't really get this, it's the 2nd paragraph from the bottom.
"Gunn said that if there is a cutback, the remaining Acela schedule will be concentrated between New York and Boston, where the Acela's acceleration and tilt feature allows it to improve on previous schedules by more than an hour. Metroliners would fill in on proportionately more schedules between Washington and New York -- there is less than a 15-minute time difference between the two trains on that route."
When Gunn says that the Acelas "improve on the previous schedules by more than an hour," is he refering to the old practice of running AEM7s out to New Haven and then switching to diesel for the run into south street? Or is he refering to AEM7 service all the way up to South Street. I find it hard to believe that the Acela really can beat an AEM7 over that distance by an hour, 150mph in Rhode Island or not.
When Gunn says that the Acelas "improve on the previous schedules by more than an hour," is he refering to the old practice of running AEM7s out to New Haven and then switching to diesel for the run into south street? Or is he refering to AEM7 service all the way up to South Street. I find it hard to believe that the Acela really can beat an AEM7 over that distance by an hour, 150mph in Rhode Island or not.
I suspect he was alluding to the time lost with the New Haven engine change. Would electrification between New Haven and Boston have been undertaken without the anticipation of the Acela express service?
When Gunn says that the Acelas "improve on the previous schedules by more than an hour," is he refering to the old practice of running AEM7s out to New Haven and then switching to diesel for the run into south station?
Yes. The combined journey time saving between the engine change, the infrastructure work, and the tilt is about an hour. But even if AEM-7s were to go head to head with the Acela sets, nonstop, between NYP and BOS the Acela still stands to beat the AEM-7 sets by around 15 minutes. The comparable figure between New York and Washington is only something to the tune of 5 minutes. It is true that Acelas are more effective between Boston and NYP, but they generate higher yield between NYP and WAS.
What they really need is two versions of the Acela, the tilt and the non-tilt, with the non-tilts confined to between NYP and WAS only.
Would electrification between New Haven and Boston have been undertaken without the anticipation of the Acela express service?
I think the logic behind the Acela order is this. Amtrak needed new corridor equipment, period. So while they were at it they thought they should redesigned their equipment so that it looks like a high speed train. Obviously, the ploy worked -- public (including AcelaExpress2005) loved it. However, there isn't any reason why tilt technology is really needed in the Northeast Corridor. The real place to do tilt are places where the track is just ridiculously curvy, for example, the ex-B&O through West Virginia, the ex-SP Coast Line between San Francisco and Los Angeles.
AEM7
"What they really need is two versions of the Acela, the tilt and the non-tilt, with the non-tilts confined to between NYP and WAS only."
Forgive me if all our readers know this, but the Acela power units do not tilt. Only the trailers do. Using two versions of the train only means spending more money for trailer cars which can't travel the entire corridor.
. Using two versions of the train only means spending more money for trailer cars which can't travel the entire corridor.
Not true. Tilting vehicles are around $3 million per piece, non-tilting are about $2.2 million per piece. There -- a $0.8 million saving per vehicle straight off.
AEM7
"Tilting vehicles are around $3 million per piece, non-tilting are about $2.2 million per piece. There -- a $0.8 million saving per vehicle straight off. "
Would that savings be worth not being able to use the cars on half the route? Sounds pretty foolish to me.
Would that savings be worth not being able to use the cars on half the route? Sounds pretty foolish to me.
Yes. Half of United's Fleet will not land at half of North American airports. For instance, runways at Ithica, NY will not host a 747-200 because it isn't of sufficient length.
So it's foolish not to make all of United's planes 737's, because those would land practically anywhere in North America? Southwest thinks so, but that's why they would never be in the long haul business.
AEM7
If you think those situations are analogous, then you clearly don't understand the Northeast Corridor.
Unlike you, I don't want Amtrak leaving money on the table. I want the railroad to pick off more passengers from air services, and that means attracting some of the non-stop customers that Delta flies.
If you think those situations are analogous, then you clearly don't understand the Northeast Corridor.
No -- YOU clearly don't understand the economics of running a commercial railroad, instead of a transit authority.
Unlike you, I don't want Amtrak leaving money on the table. I want the railroad to pick off more passengers from air services, and that means attracting some of the non-stop customers that Delta flies.
Correct. I do want Amtrak leaving money on the table. If it costs me more to get that money than to take it, then I will leave it precisely where it is. If Delta prefers to take that money and fly people, they can. If they can make a profit where I can't, more power to them.
I don't want every passenger on the NEC taking Amtrak. I want the passenger mix taking Amtrak to give rise to maximum profits. If that means dumping the small percentage of passengers who fuss about the 3 minutes I spend stopping in Philly (because I don't have to run an extra train just to serve Philly, saving over $30,000 daily), then I'm quite happy to dump those passengers. They can fly.
AEM7
"Correct. I do want Amtrak leaving money on the table. If it costs me more to get that money than to take it, then I will leave it precisely where it is. If Delta prefers to take that money and fly people, they can. If they can make a profit where I can't, more power to them."
That's where you got it wrong. Amtrak can and should be making a profit with those passengers.
"I don't want every passenger on the NEC taking Amtrak. I want the passenger mix taking Amtrak to give rise to maximum profits. If that means dumping the small percentage of passengers who fuss about the 3 minutes I spend stopping in Philly (because I don't have to run an extra train just to serve Philly, saving over $30,000 daily), then I'm quite happy to dump those passengers. They can fly."
Refer to a previous post of mine. The issue is much larger than 3 minutes at Philly. Again, you missed it.
Refer to a previous post of mine. The issue is much larger than 3 minutes at Philly. Again, you missed it.
I think you're the one who doesn't get it. Well I suppose you're thinking big, you're thinking some high speed rail that can go NYP to DCA in less than one and a half hours, non-stop. Unfortunately, the money to create that system simply doesn't exist. Sure, if you built that system, you'd take a lot of passenger off the air shuttles. But has it ever occured to you that it might be cheaper to let air shuttles do what they do best -- flying people who are REALLY in a rush? That's not a money making market segment for the railroads, in general.
(Yes, I'm basically saying that high speed rail is a goose. It's always been. If you look at the fully-allocated financial statements of the Shinkensen and the TGV, I think you will agree with me.)
Rail's advantage is in accessibility, faster speed than automobiles, much higher economies of density, and a more comfortable ride.
AEM7
"Well I suppose you're thinking big, you're thinking some high speed rail that can go NYP to DCA in less than one and a half hours, non-stop. Unfortunately, the money to create that system simply doesn't exist"
Yes it does. Acela is capable of delivering that kind of performance (yes, Amtrak will need to kick Bombardier's ass to do it), and of the other improvements we need, some are already in progress, like the catenary replacement. The Hudson tunnel is not a Subtalk idea, it is in Congress and it has a real shot at funding. At one time the Big Dig was considered an impossible dream - now look around you.
So there's no reason not to do it. The improvements will aid the entire market, of course, not just the non-stop market. It will aid accessibility as well.
You're right, I am thinking big. And on target.
"I want the railroad to pick off more passengers from air services, and that means attracting some of the non-stop customers that Delta flies. "
Delta Shuttle is a different customer model than Amtrak.
Delta says:
- Drive half an hour or even an hour to the airport, park, go through security, wait for the plane to take off, fly for 37 minutes, wait for the plane to taxi to the gate, go to the car rental place, get a rental car, and drive half an hour or more to your destination. Total trip: only 3 or 4 hours.
Amtrak says:
- Drive to a suburban station or take public transit to an urban station, ride on Amtrak for 2.5 hours, and then take transit or rent a car to get to your destination. Total trip: only 3 or 4 hours.
Delta's advantage is that it only takes them 37 minutes to move you from one airport to the other, so they have much more leeway to make you travel to their single collection point, the airport.
Amtrak has to rely on the multiple collection points because they have less leeway in how much time the customer is willing to spend to get to the collection point. If you force the traveler to come into the city, many will refuse and fly instead. The suburban Amtrak stations offer a very reasonable option to the suburban travelers.
OK. But now subtract between 30 minutes and 1 hour from Amtrak's possible Wash-NYP time and rerun your scenario.
OK. But now subtract between 30 minutes and 1 hour from Amtrak's possible Wash-NYP time and rerun your scenario.
If you examine the costs of making such an improvement, amortized over a reasonable time period, the costs are much higher than the expected revenue gain from the shuttle passengers.
AEM7
"If you examine the costs of making such an improvement, amortized over a reasonable time period, the costs are much higher than the expected revenue gain from the shuttle passengers. "
The improvements will help all of the Northeast Corridor's passengers, not just the non-stop passengers. But of course you already know that.
Unless you really failed Econ 101 and just never told us...
The improvements will help all of the Northeast Corridor's passengers, not just the non-stop passengers. But of course you already know that.
"helping" NEC passengers is not what we are in the business of doing. We're in the business of EXTRACTING REVENUE from NEC passengers. If improvements will HELP someone without corressponding INCREASE in revenue, then it's a goose.
I am of the opinion that the high speed upgrade will not result in higher revenues from those market segments that don't really care about the 1/2 hour time saving. I am also of the opinion that those who care are in the minority, and the revenue they generate will not pay for the incremental infrastructure expenditure.
I obviously know Econ 101 better than you do...
AEM7
"I am of the opinion that the high speed upgrade will not result in higher revenues from those market segments that don't really care about the 1/2 hour time saving. I am also of the opinion that those who care are in the minority,"
and that's where you're wrong. It isn't just the time savings, it's also that the improvements will improve the reliability of all services. Subtract up to 60 minutes from the schedule (depending on which train it is), and then improve consistency/reliability to the upper 90's percentage-wise, and you'll find that passengers care a lot.
You'll also see your revenues climb and costs drop.
So you need tutoring in both Econ and Quality measures. I recommend Jack Welch' writing...
I recommend Jack Welch' writing...
Didn't he have an affair with a Harvard Business Review writer? I thought she was kinda cute.
and that's where you're wrong. It isn't just the time savings, it's also that the improvements will improve the reliability of all services.
On that matter, we clearly have a difference in opinion here. I don't claim to have the current figures, although I believe I have seen enough figures to make a reasonable projection (admittedly based on little or no actual calculations as it pertains to this particular case). You are, of course, welcome to disagree. You might even get funding to prove that your projections are correct. However, until we have actual ridership data post-upgrade, you and I can continue to disagree.
Improvement in reliability is an entirely different matter to upgrading the plant for higher speed operations.
AEM7
"OK. But now subtract between 30 minutes and 1 hour from Amtrak's possible Wash-NYP time and rerun your scenario."
I already did. Unless you have an ideal itinerary (where both origin and destination are extremely convenient to an Amtrak station), and in good weather, the plane is an hour (or more) faster than Amtrak right now.
For example, I am 25 minutes by walk/subway from NYP (relatively few people are much closer to an Amtrak station). Over the years, I have had business trips to downtown Wash, suburban Wash (Virginia), suburban Boston, and Back Bay in Boston. Plane has always been quicker than train for me. For the western Boston suburbs, car is actually even with plane in good weather and much faster in bad weather.
For me, the best train destinations would be downtown Washington or Back Bay. I could leave home at 5:35 AM, catch the 6:00 Acela to Wash, arrive at Union Sta at 8:55, and arrive at some random office building in Wash at 9:15. By plane, I could leave at the same time, catch the 6:30 shuttle, get to Reagan Airport at 7:30, take the Metro, and be at that same office building at 8:30.
Doing similar calculations for Back Bay, train would take about an hour longer than plane. Doing those calculations for suburban Virginia and western Boston locations, and train loses to plane by even more. (It so happens I have never needed to go to a suburban location right by an Amtrak station; in that case train woud be more favorable, but that is what I would call an "ideal" case).
"OK. But now subtract between 30 minutes and 1 hour from Amtrak's possible Wash-NYP time and rerun your scenario."
"I already did. Unless you have an ideal itinerary (where both origin and destination are extremely convenient to an Amtrak station), and in good weather, the plane is an hour (or more) faster than Amtrak right now. "
No, you're using current schedules. I am referring to what Acela is actually capable of, not what Amtrak does now.
"
"For me, the best train destinations would be downtown Washington or Back Bay. I could leave home at 5:35 AM, catch the 6:00 Acela to Wash, arrive at Union Sta at 8:55, and arrive at some random office building in Wash at 9:15."
Amtrak's running Acela properly produces this: catch the 6:00 Acela, arrive at Union Station at 7:55, arrive at your office by 8:15
By plane, I could leave at the same time, catch the 6:30 shuttle, get to Reagan Airport at 7:30, take the Metro, and be at that same office building at 8:30. "
Assuming no delays on the runway, of course. But since you've done it many times, I assume that Reagan has avoided tie-ups. I can tell you from long experience that La Guardia doesn't come close to NY Penn in terms of avoiding delays.
I goofed on that last post.
Yes, you are correct. You were referring to Boston not NY and I did not read your post carefully.
I agree with your post, assuming Back-Bay to WASH.
BOS-WASH is a market where an airliner will have a distinct advantage over Acela, for sure.
My reasoning, however, does hold for NYP-WASH.
I agree with your post, assuming Back-Bay to WASH.
He lives in NYC. He was talking about NYP-WAS and NYP-BBY as two separate possible itineries. He claimed that even with Acela running at full speed, plane is still faster if he's going to the suburbs. Unless the Acela makes a stop at Rt.128 and car-hire facility is available there.
AEM7
I would have to agree the air services still have an edge, theoretically, Penn-Bos. But he must have a far easier time at LGA than I typically do.
As to NYP-WASH, I maintain my post. Run properly, the train wins hands down. He could be in his office up to 30 minutes earlier.
I totally agree with you concerning the NYP-WAS section. Metroliners have established the business customer base between NY and DC. Also, in my observations, Metroliners are very reliable and their on-time rate is always good. I gladly trade 15 minutes for better on-time performance.
Chaohwa
"He lives in NYC. He was talking about NYP-WAS and NYP-BBY as two separate possible itineries. He claimed that even with Acela running at full speed, plane is still faster if he's going to the suburbs. Unless the Acela makes a stop at Rt.128 and car-hire facility is available there."
Even if Amtrak speeds up by an hour ADDITIONAL AND stops at Rte 128, we are still pretty even in good weather, getting from Manhattan to the Boston suburbs by train, plane or car.
I personally have generally driven or taken the plane, because Amtrak used to be an hour LONGER than now. Now I'd be tempted to use Amtrak even though it is still longer, and if you knocked another hour off Amtrak's time I'd certainly take Amtrak. BUT IT NEEDS TO STOP AT RTE 128!
Let's do the calculations with the Acela NYP-Bos speeded up by an hour from the CURRENT schedule. Origin: NYC, 25 mins from NYP. Destinations: Newton, Westborough, or Billerica, MA.
Leave at 6:40 AM to catch either the 7:30 plane or the 7:03 train, or to drive.
Train: arrive Rte 128 at 9:15 (currently it's 10:15). Rent a car (takes 15 minutes).
Arrive Newton 9:45, Westborough 10:00, Billerica 10:15.
Plane: arrive Logan 8:45. Rent a car (takes 30 mins).
Arrive Newton 10:00, Westborough 10:15, Billerica 10:00.
Car (I've done this w/o getting a speeding ticket): arrive Westborough 9:50, Newton 10:05, Billerica 10:20.
All 3 are pretty close:
PROVIDED you knock another hour off Amtrak times to BOS.
PROVIDED Amtrak stops at Route 128.
OK, that's reasonable.
RE: speeding tickets - one sometimes gets the impression that police in the Northeast have had that deleted from police academy training.
Try going 15 mph in a 10 mph zone on a military base (there is such a thing). The MP will be equally relentless in writing you a ticket and showing you the ultimate in courtesy and politeness in doing so.
According to Mapquest.com, New York Penn to Newton, MA is 205.14 miles. The poster has to make this distance in 3 hours 20 minutes according to his schedule. His average speed is thus 61.5mph. Given that the speed limit on Mass Pike and I-84 is 65mph, provided that you cruise at that speed most of the way, you can easily make that time. Basically, you won't make that schedule as soon as you hit even ONE stop light, but you only add one minute or so for each stop light.
AEM7
In actual fact, you can go 65 on the Merritt (speed limit 55), 72 on I-84 and the Mass Pike (speed limit 65) and still be passed by 25% of cars (and therefore be very safe from a speeding ticket because the police have more appealing customers).
These speeds allow time for a brief rest stop and the slightly slower prevailing speeds on the FDR Drive, Major Deegan, and Hutchinson Pkwy.
"No, you're using current schedules. I am referring to what Acela is actually capable of, not what Amtrak does now."
No fair double counting. Using CURRENT schedules, Amtrak takes an HOUR (or more) longer than planes in general. In my original scenario I suggested the times were comparable, because I had already subtracted out that extra hour based on future train improvements. I also factored in a fair amount of delay time for the planes, by the way.
Therefore, using future schedules that are an hour less, Amtrak is about even with planes for many cases. It still doesn't break even with planes for suburban to suburban travel (which is a major component) UNLESS you have suburban stops on the Amtrak trains. If you have a non-stop train, even reducing the time by an hour will be insufficient to attrack those numerous suburban-to-suburban travelers.
I do agree that at some point in the future there might be enough traffic to fill up ONE non-stop train at 5 PM, but otherwise I don't see it.
AlM, I see that you have obviously studied this field in detail. What do you do in real life? I have a draft paper which you may be interested in reviewing. I'll drop you an email shortly.
AEM7
"No fair double counting. Using CURRENT schedules, Amtrak takes an HOUR (or more) longer than planes in general. In my original scenario I suggested the times were comparable, because I had already subtracted out that extra hour based on future train improvements."
Between BOS and NYP, you certainly did do that; fair enough. Between NYP and WASH, you did not.
" I also factored in a fair amount of delay time for the planes, by the way. "
You eliminated the delay attributable to baggage checkin, which on a day trip is reasonable. But you undersetimate the logjam on the taxiways and runways.
I could stuff myself in a 55 gal drum and get shot out of a cannon and balistically travel to boston and get their in 15 minutes. The question is, would I really want to. When you fly you have to deal with airport traffic, lines at check in, lines at security, random strip searches, lines at the gate, an aircraft cabin that would make a cattle car seem roomey, a seat the size of a camp stool and as comfortable as plywood, Big Bob sitting next to you and spilling over into your seat, the lazy snoring guy in front of you who has reclined his seat to 110%, the nice fresh recirculated air chock full of healthy bacteria, some arab guy who may or may not be a terrorist ready to blow up the plane, a flight crew whose life has been sucked out of them and would like nothing more than to pass their misery onto the passengers, the ever present threat of weather and of course takeoff landing delays. You arrive at your destination 45 minutes early with bloodshot eyes, a hacking cough and the strong urge to go on a FIVE STATE SHOOTING SPREE.
Oh yeah, flying sure is the best way to travel.
Puts everything in perspective, doesn't it?
I would certainly rate Amtrak crews, as a whole, generally better than airline crews.
I would certainly rate Amtrak crews, as a whole, generally better than airline crews.
I find that most Airline crews are as friendly as Amtrak crews if you flirt with them. If you don't, well, it's not surprising that you get crappy service...
AEM7
"I find that most Airline crews are as friendly as Amtrak crews if you flirt with them. If you don't, well, it's not surprising that you get crappy service... "
Yes, very accurate about the participatory sport aspect. However, you must first get out of your seat, asking Big Bob to get out of his, so you can clambor to the isle and go find the attendant.
I have found Amtrak crews, generally to be more accessible and available. I even got a first date from one (never happened with an airline attendant).
I even got a first date from one (never happened with an airline attendant).
Duh. You can have only ONE first date, because the date after that would be a second date... :-)
What happened? I'm curious now.
AEM7
Actually, this attendant was on the Zephyr, 1988. She took care of my sleeping car. She did a great job. I took her picture posed next to the Sleeping Car door and she put it in a scrap book.
When I got off in Los Angeles, I called her and she invited me to visit her in San Diego. Her dad was a retired TA construction engineer who acted like an incredible jerk, esp. when he found out I actually rode the San Diegan south to visit.
Naturally, there was no second date (but hey, no pain, no gain...)
"Oh yeah, flying sure is the best way to travel."
Which is why I said in another posting that once the difference is down to 1 hour more for Amtrak I'm very tempted to take Amtrak. Most of my experience, though not the one I cited in the posting you responded to, came in cases where the difference was more like 2 hours (pre-Acela suburban Boston travel).
Delta Shuttle is a different customer model than Amtrak.
Delta says:
- Drive half an hour or even an hour to the airport, park, go through security, wait for the plane to take off, fly for 37 minutes, wait for the plane to taxi to the gate, go to the car rental place, get a rental car, and drive half an hour or more to your destination. Total trip: only 3 or 4 hours.
I would doubt that many Delta Shuttle passengers are renting cars at either end of their trips, especially those travelling to LGA from BOS or DCA.
"I would doubt that many Delta Shuttle passengers are renting cars at either end of their trips, especially those travelling to LGA from BOS or DCA."
Agreed, passengers arriving at LGA are least likely to rent a car. If you are going to a LI business, you fly to Islip; if you are going to a NJ business, you fly to Newark; and if you are going to a Westchester or CT business you fly to White Plains. All of these have decent service from Wash and Boston.
However, if you are going to a suburban Wash or Boston business from New York, you will rent a car when you arrive. Further, a huge percentage of business locations are in the suburbs in those 2 metro areas.
I think they have the wrong name. They should be called ***Decela***
I did a round-trip today from Route 128 to NYPenn on the Acela Express. IT DID NOT DISAPPOINT. Both trains (2155 and 2164) were on-time and comfortable in business class. 2155 was about 30% full. 2164 was 100% full (so I conclude people are exiting New York faster than entering :-)
I especially like the Quiet Car. On the return this evening, when someone's cell phone rang, you should have heard the chorus of "shhhhhhhh!"
To/from my business appointment, I rode a 'bird on both the 4 and the 5 (one of them had 8821 as lead motor as I recall), and NewTechs on the 2, 4, 5, and 6. I also saw one of the Yankee/World Series 'birds on the 7 as it crossed overhead Sunnyside Yard.
And I even ran into a fellow SubTalker -- one who was on the FIRST SubTalk FieldTrip, "Fare-well to the Willie B."
The Quiet Car is really nice, isn't it? I don't want to be the one who tells the person with their cell phone not to use it though. Someone did on my 2155 trip yesterday but the car was pretty empty anyway. I did get a sold out 2172 once and it seemed no one was paying attention to the quiet car, including the guy next to me! That was aggrivating!!!
I was in Penn Sta this past Sunday night and the Acela Exp going to Boston was 40 minutes late and the Acela Exp to Washington DC was 1 hour and 20 minutes late. The past few times I have passed through Penn Sta and looked up at the big board, the listed Acela Expresses have always been late. I guess you got lucky. Or I am unlucky. I hope it is the latter.
Glad to hear you had such a good trip on AE, Todd! Sounds like you had some good luck on the subways...Subway Series Redbirds, Redbird on the #4 and #5, and, to top it all off, new techs on all numbered line trains that have them...WOW!! -Nick
What will the name of the new station to be built at Ground Zero????
world trade center
world trade center or cortlandt
TBD. What will be the name of the complex of buildings and memorial to be built there? Not decided yet. Give it another 1-2 years before firm plans are made.
It depends on which line you mean. If you mean the 1/9 line, then it will (when they decide to build it) be called Cortlandt St again. Or maybe "Cortlandt Street-World Trade Center". If you are talking about the PATH station, it will be called "World Trade Center". Whatever they build at the former WTC site will still be called the "World Trade Center" so, so will the stations.
Chris
Yeah, otherwise they would have to change all the sinage and that ain't cheap.
"Yeah, otherwise they would have to change all the sinage and that ain't cheap."
I thought they were still using direct current.
:0)
Booooooooo! You deserve to be thrown inbetween a Slant 40 for that.
That's a punishment? :)
--Mark
They should call it Dey St. Look at a map.
The new 1/9 station will still be Cortlandt Street. I'm not sure if the WTC name will still be used. Once the complex is rebuilt, it will carry the name of the complex should it be renamed WTC. The PATH terminal to my knowledge will keep the WTC name. While I always admired the WTC, to keep the name of a place that has been destroyed sort of makes me a little uncomfortable. I would rather rename the station to its original name "Hudson Terminal" or this one which is my personal suggestion: "Plaza of Heroism".
Extend the PATH beyond the original Lower Manhattan terminal (WTC) and connect it with the Second Avenue Subway line. If the 2nd Ave line is proposed to have 4 tracks, the PATH can use the 2 express tracks.
Can the PATH cars fit the Division B cars and tunnels without issue?
"Can the PATH cars fit the Division B cars and tunnels without issue?"
Yes, but there sure would be a gap between the platform and the car if you put a PATH train into a B Division station.
That would mean that the 2 Ave subway would have to be IRT standards, as that is what the PATH trains are. It would be inefficient to make the 2 Ave subway IRT sized as opposed to IND/BMT sized.
The 2nd Av subway will have to be B Division standard, because the first service it operates will run on the Broadway BMT tracks, probably on the express tracks. Subsequent services on the below 63rd Street leg will include an option for service turning east on the Queens Blvd. corridor.
Have they decided whether the 2 Ave subway is going to take over the extra two tracks of the Nassau line yet? I know they were discussing using that or a Water St alignment. The Nassau seems better, as it would be cheaper, and an instant extension to Brooklyn. The Nassau line is a very underused line. The infastructure is all there waiting to be used.
I don't think that's been decided yet.
(Subsequent services on the below 63rd Street leg will include an option for service turning east on the Queens Blvd. corridor. )
Believe it or not, I've heard that the current thinking is that the connection from Queens Blvd to the Second Avenue would be non-revenue only?????
That wasn't the original MTA plan. There were to be two services one upper Second Avenue -- one would go west on 63rd Street and down Broadway, and the other would go south. There were to be two services from Queens on 63rd Street -- one would go over to 6th Avenue, the other south on Second Avenue.
Perhaps this is a product of the lines that were never built on the Queens side. Still, I the connection could be used -- even if the Second Avenue only makes it to 42nd Street.
"That wasn't the original MTA plan. There were to be two services one upper Second Avenue -- one would go west on 63rd Street and down Broadway, and the other would go south. There were to be two services from Queens on 63rd Street -- one would go over to 6th Avenue, the other south on Second Avenue.
"
The rumors you hear may be right. The lower leg of the 2nd Av line is too far away to say for sure. But there is a good reason supporting your thought:
Without additional express track capacity represented by the super-express, additional revenue trains headed east (in addition to existing F service) may be impractical.
Is it possible we'll see MTA thinking about the bypass again as the Second Av project's construction moves forward?
Train width/length makes that option impractical, as mentioned in the other posts.
The only possible connection between PATH and the existing subway lines downtown that would make sense would be to hook the system up to the No. 6 train and extend it to Journal Square or Hoboken, instead of terminating at Brooklyn Bridge, since the IRT and PATH car lengths/widths are similar. However, to do that, they would have to thread the needle very carefully by building a connecting tunnel that would have to pass above the 2/3 tracks coming across City Hall from Park Place to Beekman St., then below the N/R tracks at Vescey and Church Streets but above the A/C tracks coming over from Church Street to Fulton.
Given all that, in terms of cost running a connecting tunnel across Fourth, Eighth or Ninth streets to connect the north PATH tube up with the East Side IRT would probably be a cheaper alternative.
Extend the PATH to the 2nd Ave line with a line that branches off at about 90th St then across the East River to about 27th Ave, to Astoria Blvd and on to LaGuardia Airport.
Why build all of that when you can just extend the Astoria Line to LaGuardia; then again, if that idea was proposed, maybe it would give the MTA reason to be the first to get a line to LaGuardia
Another 6th Ave/34 Street senario for the PATH; history repeating
I'd prefer to see an extension to EWR. I don't mind a little extra fare, as long as it's cheaper than NJT's current fare.
That may happen. PATH is studying it. The ROW is available to do it.
A better idea is to have the path koke up with either the brooklyn bound 2 or 5 line. This would remove an additioal hurdle of DownTown brooklyn becoming a major office area
One of the major problems with metrotech is there is no way to get people from NJ or westchester there efficently. Extendeing the hoboken path to the irt in brooklyn will remove that obstical.
A better idea is to have the path koke up with either the brooklyn bound 2 or 5 line.
I think there's a capacity problem with doing that. However, a PATH extension to Downtown Brooklyn doesn't look too difficult. The line at WTC is already much deeper than anything else, so I reckon this would work:
- A new station "World Trade Center" 2 tracks with 2 side platforms, under Cortlandt Street with the Eastern end reaching Broadway.
- Two track line under Maiden Lane, through a new East River Tube, under Orange Street to a new terminal in Downtown Brooklyn, maybe tieing in with Jay Street and Lawrence Street stations.
What would need to be doen is to create a REAL terminal to turn trains at flatbush and nostrand on the 2/5. This station was never intended to be the end of the line for this line. The line was supposed to be extended to floyd bennit feild (NY airport prior to idelewyle\Kennedy). The plans were scraped many moons ago. Building a real terminal would resolve capacity issues.
The 2\5 experience heavy delays in and out of flatbush terminal.
Well, there are the other two problems:
- Rogers Interlocking
- the 2 and 5 Lines not being the only lines in the IRT tunnels from Manhattan to Rogers - the 1 (until 9/15), the 3 (from 9/15) and the 4 need to be there too.
"- Rogers Interlocking
- the 2 and 5 Lines not being the only lines in the IRT tunnels from Manhattan to Rogers - the 1 (until 9/15), the 3 (from 9/15) and the 4 need to be there too."
First question tho, why would the PATH need to go as far as Flatbush and Nostrand?
With the talk of the Port Authority getting access to JFK and LaGuardia land, the PATH could be used to connect the 3 airports (running to Jamaica, and AirTrain bet LGA & JFK; if they ever extend AirTarin, which would be ideal) Could the PATH run on the LIRR-Atlantic Avenue Branch?
Last 2 question for now, how deep would the tunnel have to be to just bore under the river rather than build a tunnel and sink it? How were the Hudson Tunnels created?
First question tho, why would the PATH need to go as far as Flatbush and Nostrand?
If, as voiceofreason was suggesting, PATH were sent to Brooklyn on the 2-3 Lines, it would have to get to Flatbush or Utica to return. Even on the 4-5 Lines it would have to get to Nevins. The real problem is that there is simply not the capacity there for PATH.
Last 2 question for now, how deep would the tunnel have to be to just bore under the river rather than build a tunnel and sink it? How were the Hudson Tunnels created?
The Hudson Tubes were bored through rock and mud under the Hudson River about 60 to 90 ft below mean low water. I believe the East River is a similar depth, so PATH just has to be extended straight across Manhattan under everything else and a similar construction method used under the East River. It looks relatively simple.
With the talk of the Port Authority getting access to JFK and LaGuardia land, the PATH could be used to connect the 3 airports (running to Jamaica, and AirTrain bet LGA & JFK; if they ever extend AirTarin, which would be ideal) Could the PATH run on the LIRR-Atlantic Avenue Branch?
I believe PATH would fit easily into the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel. The problem is getting it there. There is so much infrastruture on similar levels to the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel and just to its west that any connection would have to pass around the North of the existing infastructure before joining Atlantic Avenue East of the current terminal. A route I'd suggest for such a connector would be Orange St - Nassau St - St Edwards St - Brooklyn Tech Pl - Ft Greene Pl. Stations to serve Downtown Brooklyn could be at Cadman Plaza and Brooklyn Hospital Center. A takeover of Atlantic Avenue with a spur onto the Rockaway Line Express Tracks then on the Airtrain Howard Beach Route would get PATH to JFK. LGA would be more roundabout for PATH - Atlantic Avenue to ENY then NYCRR then over the BQE and GCP to LGA.
To avoid the whole tangle of Downtown Brooklyn, suppose the PATH continued down West Street in Manhattan, then a new tunnel was created that lined up exactly with Atlantic Avenue (only potential issue would be the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and the F/G lines at Smith Street.
The issue is getting around the various levels over to the LIRR; the PATH ideally would line up on eastern side of the numbered lines level (so it could just turn onto the LIRR trackage.
Suggestion for this, the PATH would run east across Atlantic Avenue, turn up Court Street (low enough still to avoid the museum) and east again on Livingston Street (still low enough to pass underneath that section of the A, C, & F tracks. On Livingston, the PATH raises up to the height of ONE level below the adjacent numbered lines. The PATH could pass under the numbered lines at Flatbush, run adjacent to them on Flatbush and now raise to the level of the number lines, (eastern side adjacent), so it could now turn right onto the LIRR trackage.
Let me know what you think and if see any issues with it
suppose the PATH continued down West Street in Manhattan
The other difficulties with that would be:
- the North tube would be very difficult to connect to: it would require a left hand turn of over 90 degrees without undermining the WFC - the depth might make it just possible.
- a new WTC station would be a bit peripheral - you could probably get the north end at Albany and West Streets, but that's not as well placed as, say, Cortlandt St and Trinity Pl.
You proabbly would be able to squeeze the PATH Line deep under the South Ferry Loop, the Joralemon and Brooklyn-Battery tubes - it looks on the map like it would be a tight fit (and thus expensive), but it would work as a way to Atlantic Avenue.
Once you reached Atlantic Avenue, you would have to be at least 3 levels down, maybe 4 - this would avoid the F & G Lines' double level Subway and the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel. You'd miss the transit museum by a hell of a long way. 3 levels to 2 levels down would be doable along Livingston St at a reasonable gradient - the length of it looks right for a climb of 12ft.
However, you'd hit a problem at Livingston and Flatbush - the 2-3-4-5 Line is 1 level down, the M-N-Q-Q-R-W Line is 2 levels down and the A-C-G Line is 3 levels down. With all the branching etc around there, it's pretty much a solid obstacle. The only option would be to descend to 4 levels down on Livingston St instead of rising to 2. This would leave 3 levels (call it 36ft in height) between the new PATH Line and the Atlantic Avenue LIRR. At a constant up gradient of 4%, it would take 900ft (roughly half a mile) to climb to the existing tunnel. Added to that, there would be about 500ft of platform before the line could start climbing, so call it 1400ft East of Flatbush Avenue that one finally gets into the Atlantic Avenue tunnel, i.e. between Grand and Classon Avenues. 4% is quite steep - PATH cars may well only be able to do 2% (I don't have the tech specs), especially just after a station - in that case, it could be between Bedford and Nostrand Avenues that it reaches the correct level.
I can see the appeal of a route via Flatbush Terminal, but it looks a little difficult to me.
"…You proabbly would be able to squeeze the PATH Line deep under the South Ferry Loop, the Joralemon and Brooklyn-Battery tubes - it looks on the map like it would be a tight fit (and thus expensive), but it would work as a way to Atlantic Avenue."
Meant the PATH would tunnel around all of the subway tubes, so the Brooklyn Battery would be the only issue
"However, you'd hit a problem at Livingston and Flatbush - the 2-3-4-5 Line is 1 level down, the M-N-Q-Q-R-W Line is 2 levels down and the A-C-G Line is 3 levels down. With all the branching etc around there, it's pretty much a solid obstacle."
Not all that solid actually:
The tunnel comes in on Altlantic, but turns up Court and east onto Livingston Street; Livingston Street is the key to all of this:
1) Being 3 levels down, it avoids A-F before hand. On Livingston, Schermerhorn is now one block south; 2-3-4-5 is one block north. This space on Livinston allows the PATH to climb to 2 levels below before Flatbush Avenue
The M-N-Q-Q-R-W on Flatbush is 2 levels below also, but another key, it turns EAST off of Flatbush befor Livingston ( onto Fulton, then Ashland back to Flatbush)
http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/atlpac.gif
in Hagstrom 5 borough atlas too
The 2nd level down is now free. The 2-3-4-5 takes over turning south down Flatbush, but is one level higher still.
Remember Livingston Street is right in the middle of all of this: The PATH (2 leveld down) can pass avoiding the other lines (A-C-G 3 levels down and the 2-3-4-5 1 level one),
The PATH would turn running adjacent east to the 2-3-4-5, it would only have to climb one level before Flatbush Avenue LIRR. but then would have to redesign the LIRR waiting area
The M-N-Q-Q-R-W on Flatbush is 2 levels below also, but another key, it turns EAST off of Flatbush befor Livingston ( onto Fulton, then Ashland back to Flatbush)
The question then is, could a train pass under the 2-3-4-5 Line at Livingston then over the M-N-Q-Q-R-W Line at Ashland. My guess is that it would be possible - it'd be tight, but just doable.
My problem with this would be that it would almost definitely be more expensive than a route via Metro Tech and I can't see why it would be preferable on other grounds. Could you tell me why you prefer a route via West St and Livingston St?
"…The question then is, could a train pass under the 2-3-4-5 Line at Livingston then over the M-N-Q-Q-R-W Line at Ashland. My guess is that it would be possible - it'd be tight, but just doable."
Wouldnt not have to. The line would turn off Livingston and run alongside the northbound 2-3 under Flatbush Avenue (which runs nearly parallel to the LIRR; would run right into the LIRRs tracks. There are no building over this area, so an additional 2 tracks would not be that hard to construct)
"…My problem with this would be that it would almost definitely be more expensive than a route via Metro Tech and I can't see why it would be preferable on other grounds. Could you tell me why you prefer a route via West St and Livingston St?"
My concern is the criss cross of subway tunnels both in Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan and the density of these areas. It is possible to tunnel uder all of this, but still a lot of consideration passing through these areas. Also, there are no additional stops between Flatbush and Lower Manhattan, so why go through all of this.
My preference to West Street, Atlantic Ave, Court Street, Livingston Street & Flatbush Avenue route is that these are wide roadways with less obstruction uderneath and above
The line would turn off Livingston and run alongside the northbound 2-3 under Flatbush Avenue
Would still need to get under that then over the M-N-Q-Q-R-W two short blocks later. I admit that's definitely possible, but still tight and would be a tricky engineering job.
My concern is the criss cross of subway tunnels both in Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan and the density of these areas.
Lower Manhattan would be no problem - it's a clear level below everything else to begin with. There is also a route through Brooklyn without tunnelling under any building, so the sky-high property prices needn't be too much of a worry.
Also if anything can prove more expensive than under a city, underwater is it...
Also, there are no additional stops between Flatbush and Lower Manhattan
On the routing I was suggesting, the stops would be WTC, Jay St, Flatbush & Atlantic.
My preference to West Street, Atlantic Ave, Court Street, Livingston Street & Flatbush Avenue route is that these are wide roadways with less obstruction uderneath and above
It's only a two track line - not exactly Flatbush Avenue style widths. Plus a route with right-angle turns onto and off Court St would necessarily be somewhat slow or would undermine private property a hell of a lot. The turn between West Street and the Hudson Tubes would also not be very fast to say the least.
If the PATH ran a route, would prove good to have a stop at Jay Street and a direct route would be better.
Had it in my mind, trying to avoid all the current tunnels, but if they would not prove an issue, than agreed
it would take 900ft (roughly half a mile)
????? how do you figure that?
36÷0.04=900 (or three levels at 4% gradient = 900ft)
"- Rogers Interlocking
- the 2 and 5 Lines not being the only lines in the IRT tunnels from Manhattan to Rogers - the 1 (until 9/15), the 3 (from 9/15) and the 4 need to be there too."
First question tho, why would the PATH need to go as far as Flatbush and Nostrand?
With the talk of the Port Authority getting access to JFK and LaGuardia land, the PATH could be used to connect the 3 airports (running to Jamaica, and AirTrain bet LGA & JFK; if they ever extend AirTarin, which would be ideal) Could the PATH run on the LIRR-Atlantic Avenue Branch?
Last 2 question for now, how deep would the tunnel have to be to just bore under the river rather than build a tunnel and sink it? How were the Hudson Tunnels created?
Thats one of the main reasons why I say entend the express section from Church Avenue (Culver line-F) east along the LIRR Bay Ridge Row.
Express section could finally have a use and relieve the wreck known as Nostrand and Flatbush Avenue
WHAT!?!?!?!? are you braindead or do you got some screws lose!? no way in HELL thats ever gonna happen,you gotta be insane.yes PATH was made to help those in NJ to get to NY but not THAT FAR into NY.thats way to much to ask for and if you even dared to propose that to the PA they'd just laugh in your face and tell ya to get outta town.and im dead serious here too.
Darlene,
Chill out!
Braindead??!! Screws loose?? Insane?? Please tone down your criticisms. Those terms were inappropriate. Also learn to start sentences with capital letters and put 2 blank spaces between sentences. It will make it easier to figure out what you are saying.
Those "proposals" as they are being called are merely fanstasies of what some would like to see happen.
We all know it won't happen - at least not in any of our lifetimes.
PATH, or more accruately the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad as it was called when it was built was indeed intended to get people to NY from NJ. But you are probably not aware that one of the original plans was to have a route to Grand Central. A portion of this proposed route can still be seen just outside the north end of the 9th St station. Why didn't it happen? The IRT Co. had pretty much of a lock on Manhattan at the time and the H & M wasn't going to win much in the way of expansion. I bet you didn't know that.
You may be quite serious about your feelings on this subject but there are more mature ways of expressing them on this board.
put 2 blank spaces between sentences.
In HTML, multiple consecutive spaces are equivalent to a single space. Use one space, two spaces, or a thousand spaces -- it'll all come out the same in the end.
But at least there would be spaces between the sentences.
(Look at me - discussing proper sentence structure on a railfan board.)
I've seen at least two maps of the proposed extension, and both of them have the extension to 42nd street going from the existing Herald Square terminal (either up 6th and over on 42nd, or cutting the corner somehow). The 9th street branch was supposed to terminate at Astor Place to link to the IRT station there
H&M also proposed to link its uptown and downtown branches by way of Broadway. BMT stopped that one.
Allen,
The heading north of 9 St was meant to continue toward the area near Astor Place on the IRT Lexington line. But you are right about the H&M going to Grand Central. The route was to have continued from 33/6. Make a station stop about 40/6. Then turn right and go to Grand Central. At the west end of the #7 platform there is an 2 part esculator that goes up to the Lexington Ave mezzazine. At mid-point, the landing there was to have been where people would transfer from the H&M to Grand Central.
How far s Breakneck Ridge station from the Cold Spring Station? Gonna be doing some hiking this weekend, & am curious of distances...thanks.
It's a few miles along the highway (bad walking). Why not take the train directly to Breakneck Ridge? According to the MTA web site, trains stop there on Sat morning.
If you really want to go to Cold Spring, Mt. Taurus was a nice hike when I took it many years ago. Don't know the details of access any more, though.
LOL im a Metro North-ite but i dunno lol. BTW guys i took my medical and its the end for burger flippin days. the results take 1-2 days and i should get a date. i cant wait
Looking at the MTA's plans for the southern leg of the Second ave subway line, Ijust happen to notice this.Would anybody out there have info confirming this?Plans,documents,articals,web links etc... whatever.. thanks..
Could you be more specific? The Lower Manhattan Expwy was never even started. What tunnel does the MTA material refer to, and where?
There is a short stretch of subway tunnel in place in Chinatown, I believe - dug as part of the 1970's Second Av project. This tunnel will probably be incorporated into the new line, just as the tunnel segments in the 110's are to be used for above-63rd St service.
guys,somewhere under Canal street or in the area,there is a highway tunnel called the LOWER MANHATTAN EXPRESSWAY.Went to the mta site,looked up SAS relations to other routes in the ares,saw the maps with station proposals ,diagrams realtive depts,in the Canal st area ,and bamm ...LME Tunnels under everthing....
"guys,somewhere under Canal street or in the area,there is a highway tunnel called the LOWER MANHATTAN EXPRESSWAY.Went to the mta site,looked up SAS relations to other routes in the ares,saw the maps with station proposals ,diagrams realtive depts,in the Canal st area ,and bamm ...LME Tunnels under everthing.... "
Could you please give a reference? The SAS map I see doesn't say LME on it anywhere. I see "Lower Manhattan Stations", which refers to subways station options under Water St.
http://www.mta.info/planning/sas/sas_documents.htm
I see that now. There was talk about meeting the objectives of LOMEX by putting it underground, but this never happened.
The only thing I can think of is, in the way of dOT's and city planners everywhere, this was actually mapped and never de-mapped. Unbuilt expressways can remain on maps for decades, and land set aside for them remain unused, even though the expressway is (or seems) politically dead.
If it is not de-mapped, it could still show on planning maps for other projects. As long as it remains on the map, any other construction needs to keep out of its way.
So my guess is that these maps show where LOMEX would be if it were ever built.
But I see the nubs of a series of "76th Street" threads in the making. :)
I can see NEXT year's April Fool's joke about LoMEX on Steve Anderson's NYC Roads site in a manner similar to Joe Brennan's documentation of 76th Street this year :)
--Mark
Hey,you know...this does have that ol'''76 st station'' ring to it....oh well,just asked a question that nobody can answer right now [or,like ol'76th st,gotta get a pick and shovel to find out.thanks guys for trying....
In the current environment, if you go taking a pick and shovel anywhere, especially lower Manhattan, you'll probably be answering a lot of other people's questions before you even come close to answering yours. :)
how about this... maybe some work was started before and during the Chrystie st project,but got the rug pulled out before any thing else was built? sounds like something that could happen in NYC.....What do you think.
how about this... maybe some work was started before and during the Chrystie st project,but got the rug pulled out before any thing else was built? sounds like something that could happen in NYC.....What do you think.
I have always understood that there was no actual physical construction.
Don't be so sure of that.
I asked Steve Anderson a few months ago if he knew anything about a tunneled LME under Chrystie Street. He said he had. He was surprised when I told him it showed up on the SAS planning documents.
He even mentions the details of the construction here:
During this time, one small portion of the Lower Manhattan Expressway was actually constructed. The approach ("undercrossing") to the expressway at Chrystie and Broome Streets was built in 1962 at a cost of $941,000. The rationale for the construction of this 80-foot-by-80 foot segment was pre- emptive: otherwise, the subway would have to be dug up again to accommodate road construction.
This all gives an interesting look at how bureaucracy (using the term non-judgmentally here) works.
A completely unfunded project, mapped but not finally approved, can have little portions of itself built, so long as it's still on the maps.
But it hsa an internal logic.
I remember maps from the 1970's where they still showed the Clearview Expressway was going to be extended to the Belt Parkway. Never happened!
That's a funny thing about some maps. I have an old Suffolk map that shows the route of the LIE going right down the North Fork of LI. I also have an old Nassau map that shows a bunch of "never built roads" - The Seaford-Oyster Bay actually has the route to Oyster Bay, A "Nassau Expressway", and the Bethpage Parkway also was much longer. I like old maps. I even have an old Hagstroms that shows the LIRR ending in Ozone Park on what was left of the Rockaway Branch.
Hagstrom was very aggressive about putting "proposed" highways on their maps. Especially in the early '70s.
What about that Cross Brooklyn Expressway that, I think, was supposed to continue the Interboro (Jackie Robinson) and then use the Bay Ridge ROW?
I never saw that one on a Hagstron. Which dpesn't prove it was never there. But there were lots of others, some of which you already brought up. Offhand, I can recall:
Bethpage Parkway up Lloyd's Neck (fuzzy on the northernmost part)
SOB to Oyster Bay and connecting Wantagh Parkway on the south end.
Rte 231 to Northport
Wantagh Parkway extension to LIE
LIE to approx Greenport
Sunrise to about Easthampton
These were all on my c.1970 Nassau and Suffolk Atlases. I used those to death, and I don't believe I've had those for years.
You get these "phantom" roads on many types of maps. Back when I was an ankle-biter growing up in Connecticut, I had a street map (I don't remember from what company) that showed a whole network of streets across from where I lived. In fact, the area was completely undeveloped, heavily wooded with swampy patches, and was still in that state when I was last in the neighborhood a couple of years ago. A developer had filed subdivision plans with the land records office many years earlier, and although he never did any work the map-makers took his plans into account and never corrected their error. Come to think of it, the map also showed a couple of rail lines that had been abandoned years before.
My Rand McNally map of Philadelphia still shows where Moyamensing Prison should be at 10th and Passyunk in South Philly....it was demolished years ago and an ACME supermarket built in its place.
...an ACME supermarket...
Do they sell anvils there?
...an ACME supermarket...
Do they sell anvils there?
Yes, except they call them pickled pig's feet :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We all know that Acme products are no good for chasing and catching things for food.
They're great if you don't mind falling off a cliff a few times.
Don't forget to say "Beep! Beep!" first.
Not to mention sticking out your tongue.:)
Not to mention sticking out your tongue.:)
Believe it or not, I find myself going "Beep-beep" while railfanning on an express train as we're about to skip a local stop. I started doing this years ago on the A when the R-10s still ruled.
No, it's just meep.
They doubled it up on the soundtrack. Cheap bastards.
Down in the Jones Falls Valley, where streetcars still ply the shining rails, is a forgotten tunnel under the CSX (former B&O) line. Once upon a time there was a street named Glen Edwards Avenue that went from Falls Road to Hampden Avenue. The street vanished around 1930, when the small row houses that lined the street north of the tunnel were torn down and replaced with a Baltimore Gas & Electric substation and the tunnel was filled in. (That susstation today supplies BSM and the rest of the valley with AC power.) How do we know this? Until the 1970's Rand McNally's road maps showed Glen Edwards Avenue as an existing street. There's a car stop there now on our line.
I think you are correct. I think it was partly to have been a viaduct over the Bay Ridge Branch (I believe the trains would have still been able to run underneath.) I haven't seen that on a map, but have read about it somewhere (possibly nycroads.com). In any event, I'm sure something was to connect to the JR-Interboro Parkway, as it just sort of ends in the middle of nowhere. (but not to far from the LIRR Bay Ridge line in ENY.)
Cross Brooklyn Expressway in great detail at Steve Anderson's nycroads.com.
See the 1967 and 1969 proposals for a discussion of taking over and converting the JR/Interborough Parkway to become the Interborough Expressway. The current JRP, for those of you who have been on it, is barely suitable as a parkway, no less expressway, which allows truck traffic.
To make Jackie Robinson an expressway, you would have to pretty much just abandon the current road and use the general right-of-way for a new expressway.
Actually, some years ago, JRP (I think it was still just Interborough) was pretty much taken down to the dirt. It used to much more "thrilling" even then now.
Yeah, "thrilling" is the word - almost like a theme park trill ride, especially between the Myrtle Ave and Cypress Ave exits, with Cypress Hills in between (not that the rest isn't too curving also).
In seriousness though, the Interboro could never become an "expressway" in it's current form. You would need a person of Robert Moses proportions to get that done. The "dead" couldn't even rest in Cypress Hills with Robert Moses! I think an equal amount of bodies would have to be relocated, if not more, in order for it to even become somewhat like an "expressway". I seriously doubt that would go over well. I wonder what they were planning to do in the 60's when they were considering that.
See Paul Matus' post.
See http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/sas/pdf/sara_park.pdf
Sure enough, it says "Lower Manhattan Expressway" underneath Grand St.
Could this be a map from the 1960s that they never bothered to update?
Certainly there is no LME down underneath Grand St. The project got killed before an ounce of dirt was dug.
The unfinished tunnel is under Confucious Plaza.
Whatever you're looking at it's not LOMEX, as they were calling it at the time.
It was supposed to be elevated, destroying a huge swath of what was then called the Cast Iron District (and then considered by many to be useless), now SOHO.
It was blocked and construction never started.
Construction WAS started.
There is some metal framework on the West end of the Manny B that was originally designed to support the LOMEX.
There is also some construction in the park near Grand, where something was, but I dont recall what.
www.oldnyc.com for more
So the LME designation at Grand and Chrystie on the SAS map on the MTA site is actually correct. They built a tiny piece of the LME in 1962 BEFORE building the Chrystie St connection so that they wouldn't have to tunnel under the subway later.
This is possible, or at least provision for it existing, if the LoMEX tunnel was mapped at the time.
That's true, as to the Manhattan Bridge. I can't speak for anything near the Williamsburg. I remember that being built, which loused some of the appearance of the Manhattan end of the bridge.
However, this work is not really the Lower Manhattan Expressway per se, but preparatory work done in anticipation that the project would be approved.
It's sort of analagous to those scraps of tunnels and station structures and stub ends that were built with the IND that there would be an IND Second System, but that never happened.
The Lower Manhattan Expwy may never have been built but it has a website detailing it's history -
http://www.nycroads.com/roads/lower-manhattan/
If it did exist, it could be turned into a modertaely useful Subway Line.
How? Would seem to me to be a fifth wheel.
The Weekly Standard magazine has an article, available online about the explosive growth of very distant, almost exurban surburbs of a type known as "Sprinkler City." While the article is mainly concerned with the sociological aspects of this phenomenon, presenting them in a semi-humorous way, it's not hard to see that Sprinkler Cities are just about the most transit-unfriendly environments one could conceive. I'd have to say that this trend, if indeed it persists, is not entirely good news.
Sprinkler Cities are just about the most transit-unfriendly environments one could conceive
I don't think that is necessarily true. The reason people move away from the cities and the inner suburbs, as the article suggests, is because they have become untidy. Things (and people) have moved in to disturb the balance. The picture painted in this particular exurban city may well be one of transit-unfriendliness, but a city with similar characteristics could in fact be developed around a transit system if innovative planners choose to do so. In short, people did not move away because they wanted transit-unfriendliness. The moved away because they wanted something new and nice. If the new cities were constructed with the kind of density that will support transit, people will use transit. For example, the development along the outer end of the PATCO line in the 1960s was really quite successful. PATCO was over-specced for the population at the time -- just the the roads were over-specced for the population they intended to support. The same principle of overengineering works both in highways and in transit.
AEM7
The article points out that the new "Sprinkler Cities" include employment centers, such as office parks, as well as residences. Geographic dispersal of employment centers will make transit less workable regardless of the residents' attitudes.
Geographic dispersal of employment centers will make transit less workable regardless of the residents' attitudes
The article merely suggested that employment centers will not be in the city but within the sprinkler city itself. The article did suggest that in general, Sprinkler cities are generally built with an automobile-oriented, dispersed model. However, there is no reason to suggest that sprinkler cities MUST be dispersed to be successful.
You can develop a transit-oriented sprinkler city that will attract the same kind of people. The transits will be brand new, comfortable, and will come at a headway considered to be totally excessive. The high-rise technology buildings will cluster around a transit station, while the high-rise department stores will cluster around another. Transit will travel through acres and acres of reserved woodland between the residential area (again clustered and medium density) and the business districts. The type of housing offered would be condos, family homes, and a few high rises. The final stop on the transit will take you to a rural railhead where a connection is made with a high speed Amtrak line.
Build something like this in Southeastern Rhode Island, away from the old industrial blight and with a connection to Westerly train station, I bet you the property values will skyrocket. It'll be a new city that people want to live in. The attraction of the sprinkler city is not the large suburban yards and private space. The attraction is in its newness.
AEM7
" I'd have to say that this trend, if indeed it persists, is not entirely good news."
This is unfortunately not a new trend. The good news is that they'll eventually run out of water.
Also, some areas quite hostile to proper environmental behavior, like Florida, New Orleans, and Houston, will eventually join with the traditional environmentalists to make these folks pay the true cost for their excessive energy consumption (when the anti-environmentalist lowlanders discover that their homes are going to be flooded by rising sea levels).
A very interesting article, one I can identify with, living in Nassau county. And I am fairly young. I remember the county as fairly middle class in the 80s, except for the traditionally rich north shore areas and the poor areas (around Hempstead).
But middle class have moved out. Nassau looks more like Queens. Roads are falling apart, but most noticable of all is the increase of gangs, and urban type problems. Illegal housing of migrants is a biggie. As immigrants get priced out of the city, they start moving in and landlords like to take advantage that they don't mind squeezing 3 ppl in a room. Certain places have definately gotten poorer. Levittown, Hicksville, and Mineola most noticably. Nassau now has many "ghettos", Along with Hempstead, Uniondale, and Roosevelt, Freeport, Baldwin, Mineola, and Hicksville have declined very noticably overall. Glen Cove has several pockets of "ghetto" like areas. Western sections of Suffolk, also have gotten worse, like Bay Shore, Brentwood, and Lindenhurst.
I think certain parts of Suffolk county can qualify as "sprinkler cities". The area of S.Setauket/Centereach/Lake Grove and eastward is becoming like a sprinkler city. Most people don't commute to NYC over there, LIRR doesn't even serve areas like Rocky Point, Lake Grove, and Yaphank with decent commuter service. In Suffolk everybody drives.
And most Nassau ites are moving out to Suffolk, the middle class ones.
Until we recognize inner suburbs suffer urban problems, then people will move out to outer "burbs" or Sprinkler cities, because it looks newer, safer and cleaner. But then the process will start there too.
Decay grows like wildfire in suburbs because unlike in cities, people are always in denial that a problem exists.
...at least, NYCTA is advertising for a contractor to bore.
Note the requirement to "move the muck."
My oops. Rather, it's MTA that's advertising for a bore.
I think they should use "cut and cover" across the East River and forget about that lower level of the 63rd St. tunnel :-)
And where do we find a living Moses?
My President of course, Charleton Heston!
What's he gunna do? Hold the water back at GUNPOINT? Car inspectors can only do so much, bro. :)
Chucky is the Omega Man...got crucified in the end. He's also the 'Keeper of the Monkeys' and got nuked in the end. There is OUR President, holding up a flintlock rifle at the podium: 'You can pry my gun out of my cold/dead hands.' Good example for CIs to follow...TrainDude is a close second. CI Peter
Yeah, but let's see him part the East River with a shoe paddle. THEN I'll be impressed. :)
A few years ago, that would have been easy. You could even "walk on water" crossing over on all the dead fish.
Heh. I guess they did a "cement shoes" cleanup at some point then. :)
Mayor Bloomberg did his part by providing a two million dollar bridge loan to support medical benifits of the strikers. If Moses loads his flintlock with an overload of ffffG and fires it between his legs, he'll be the first human to set foot upon Mars. Won't need to part the East River. CI peter
I see it's been a day of degreasing for ya. Heh. Few more snorts from that steel drum and you'd be playing it. :)
Easy day on R142s today...replaced four mylar window coverings and did special inspection on battery boxes...found two of six in the trainset grounded. Grease? We don't use no stinkin grease. One aerosol can of CRC does one Redbird...carbody or undercar. Yah Mon...we come from Bombardier...we fix your train real good. Pass the Dutchie on the left hand side.
Heh. THAT explains it. :)
Ees this Pig...no no no no mon. Ees this chicken...no no no mon.
Ees this Ghandja...yah yah yah mon. Dees ees Ghandja chef and tonight we make ghandja spliff pizza. Car Inspectors have safety related title...only drink 'propulsky.' CI Peter
As long as animal sacrifices aren't required to keep them Kursks on wheels running, then I guess we're OK. :)
Now I see why the bombsuckier units are still crap.... What do thoes Bombsuckier techs do all day??? eat ghanja spiff pizza?
Eleven months on the job and I I really do not know who is a Bombardier tech! They have their 'mechanical persons' on the floor replacing worn torsion bar bushings and the like. IF I'm doing inspection and find a major problem, I'll write it up on the inspection report...Bomba usually picks it up. If I am 'troubles' and come across a broken ceiling latch or end door, I'll fix it to place the trainset into service but tag the inspection report because engineering is aware of all my little fixes. Most of the techs are from vendors and I know them all...Wabco (brakes) even sent one of the techs to contact me on the line because I had e-mailed them about the brake problems...that was a little scary because the tech had been instructed to find me and went to the car desk...so everyone in management learned I'm on the internet asking questions. No harm was done...my inquiries are to TAs advantage to MAKE TRAINS GO. CI Peter
How close are the Bomb(suckier) trainsets to not sucking anymore?
So if I read this correctly they plan to put the Manhattan part of the tunneling project out to bid within 6 months.
That sounds more real than any major project has been in a long time.
This tunnel will be ready for track laying by 2005. Next come the Sunnyside station and the addition to GCT.
Weather and music together...this trainset rocks...cuz Redbirds have no governor. Today, RoadRage restrictions are suspended on the Major Deegan Expressway. Forget civility and politeness..just tip your hat passing 207th and give the proper salutation. Boring...it's what we do to place Pop Rivets in Redbird carbody to hold everything together.
Oh, alternate side of the street parking..is disabled because you can park your car on the sidewalk in fron of your apartment building. Todd, just tell em you can do the job and to turn off those annoying chains of ads and the baseball games. CI Peter
This has never happened to me, but imagine the following situation: You are waiting for a train, and you notice a $100 bill laying on the subway tracks. Even though you know it's illegal to enter the tracks, do you do so anyways in order to get the money? -Nick
I wouldn't go, its too dangerous. Just how would I get off the tracks if I suddenly see a train coming?
"Just how would I get off the tracks if I suddenly see a train coming?"
Depends where you are. If you are of good health and are in the middle of the platform, you may be able to pull your way back up. I'm not sure about this, but there is usually a small empty space right underneath the platform (under the yellow line), so you might be safe there when a train pulls in...but don't quote me on that. If you are near either end of the platform, there are stairs to get you back up. Of course, if you are going to get the bill, chances are that you can still find it after a train passes, so you may have some extra time to get yourself out of there at that time. -Nick
Depends which line its on. If it's on the 7, with frequent headways, no way. If it was on the G, definitely.
Yeah, the 7 or the 6 is probably something I'd have to think about first. I'd probably not do it if it was on an el either.
Depends which line its on. If it's on the 7, with frequent headways, no way. If it was on the G, definitely.
And there's of course nothing to worry about if the train approaching you is comprised of R-68's. Even if you don't see the train until it's a few feet away, you'll have several minutes to escape.
FDNY...two generations past. History, morals, responsibility......dealve into 'the fourty thieves.' Employers test us, society tempts us and the Lord just checks us out. Someone dropped a hundred dollar note...who is watching...are you a civil servant? I know this was for fun but times have changed...a fire in my apartment building two weeks ago changed my life again. All the apartment doors on my floor were broken into unnecessarily and my door was unopenable because a fireman was prying it open as I tried to open it. I sought out the fire captain on scene and told him my eldrly neighbor gave a fireman her keys...he eyes me out with my uniform and ID and has someone get to the work. I stood guard for my neighbors. A one hundred dollar bill on the tracks...I'd get it off before some ass jumps down and gets wasted holding up the line. Forgive me for breaking the humor chain but a serious chord was broken. Nothing like subway undercar after a jumper. CI Peter
Im not with the FDNY anymore...quit about a year ago. Only spent about 2 months on the job. I was with Philly FD and DCFD before that.
Good decision...if your my age, and you try to keep up with the 'younger crowd,' it's hard on your body. During the fire in my apartment building, Scott packs were all ringing...the risk of physical injury in FD is probably far less than exposure to toxic smoke and fumes. I'm on the floor all day in 'troubles' while inspection crews rest out the end of the shift. CI Peter
Besides, I realized that the meager pay isn't enough to justify to risk you put yourself through. FDNY was much easier than my stint in the Philly FD, but I got out just in time. Philly was the case where I was tired of making $35,000 to go to fires that were very often bigger than 4 alarms, and were set by bored kids in abandoned factories. After a 10-alarm fire a few years ago up in Holmesburg, Philly, I decided that i've had enough.
Do you have to ask twice? Hey, I'm down there. A quick check to see if a train is coming and then a quick jump down. I'd probably do it for a $20.00....heck I'd do it for a "$10.00!
Chris
like you REALY NEED TO ASK ......and what does one have to do with the other?
What do you mean?....Isn't "Do you need to ask twice" a figure of speach?
100 bucks... laying ...waiting for you to get... YOU know you would unless your rich.. and dont need it... and morals? PLEASE dude:) I would be moraly OBLIGATED to ''GET THE MONEY'':>[LOL]
Lol, now I get it........
I did it once after a $5 bill flew out of my hand and landed on the Seneca Ave (M) el tracks. I went down to the tracks, picked up my $5, and climbed right back up...
Did it make a difference because that was YOUR $5, or would you have done it for a $5 inheritance? -Nick
Once I dropped some photos onto the LIRR elevated ROW in Merrick. The Train had just left, and I wanted them back.
So I jumped down, and retrieved the photos, and then found I really couldn't jump back up to the platform. Must have had something to to with increasing age and weight.
I walked to the end of the Platform and went up the steps.
Elias
Actually, the LIRR platforms are higher than the subway platforms. Unfortunately, I know that from experience. I've only been on subway tracks once and that was at the Metropolitan Ave station on the M line. When in High School, I dropped a book, and jumped down to get it. I had no problem getting back up.
When I first started taking photos of trains in my early 20's (about 10 years ago), like a fool I jumped off the platform at the LIRR Country Life Press station to take a picture of the station. I could not get back up on the platform because it was too high, and I heard a train coming (can't hear those electrics from too far away). It scared me to death. Luckily Country Life Press is a station where you can just run out of the way, away from the station, (while watching the third rail). But I learned something that day. NEVER enter the tracks. Sure, it sounds funny jumping on the tracks for money, and I joked about it at the beginning of this thread, but I still see that train coming, and luckily I'm still here to type this story. Somehow, when you are a teenager and even in your 20's, you don't think about stuff like that, and you never think something bad can happen to you.
I hear you, Elias. As someone who is in my early 20s, I have to remember not to be fearless, because doing something stupid can effect the rest of your life in negative ways. -Nick
But then again....how many people ride the subway that carry $100 bills around? And how many are rich enough to be careless enough as to let the money fall onto the tracks?
Actually, I found a $50 bill on a subway stairway about 10 years ago. It felt kind of strange, like I was on Candid Camera or something. The most I ever found was a $100 bill on the Strip in Las Vegas once - it was just blowing down Las Vegas Blvd. Of course, it seems more likely there than it does in the subway. I don't think that if someone was careless enough to loose any denomination of money in the subway it would last too long.
You should dive in head first to make sure no one else gets it. If you die, the taxpayers will collect $100 to defrayy the expense of the investigation.
:0)
.....or if you get hurt, sue the MTA (like that crazy woman who won $14,000,000 a few weeks ago).........Sad state, when someone gets that much money for their own stupidity.
I almost did it for a broken third rail shoe. So for something of actual value...hell yeah!
That's worth it alright. I did it once for an abandoned safety vest. I still have it to this day. Mint condition.
How close was that broken shoe to the third rail? I don't want you to get fried! :-) -Nick
On a subway - never. On a commuter line where I could see a good distance and if there were a space beneath the platform that I could jump into quickly - still No!
The train always wins!
Today, no. $100 isn't worth it to me.
In the days when $100 was more money than I'd see in a few weeks, I'd have only one question. Am I at the front of the platform, or the back? Front - yes. Back with no visibility - no way.
CG
Wow...such response from the sinners. So I see the bill, whip out my 239th safety vest and a flashlight, hop down and pocket it. Take off my vest, 'Oh no officer it was not me...i work for 180th.' Here is a real safety issue...a customer sees the bill and jumps down breaking an ankle, zapped by the third rail and squashed by the trainset. Three decades ago I found the inside of a wallet on a bus and turned it over to the driver.....NO ID...the driver said he would take care of it. Right! As a TA employee, I guess I would have to retrieve the bill, mark it with my pass number, turn it in to the nearest token clerk and file a G2. Telephone companies test pay phone maintainers regularly...a one hundred dollar note is just not worth losing my employment over. Repent Ye Sinners...the Redbirds are leaving us for a better world. CI peter
Just as an aside, There are still over 800 redbirds in service and I don't think the question has anything to do with morals. I think it has to do with common sense. If someone is willing to risk his or her life for $100.00 then morals may not be their biggest problem.
Wanna talk about a moral dilema - what do you do in this case? You board a LIRR train at Penn Station - heading for suburbia. When the lovely lady seated next to you with the long legs & short skirt gets up at Jamaica & a late 30ish guy takes her place. As soon as the train begins to move, he opens a beer. Not a can but a large bottle. By the time the train reaches my station, he's finished the bottle and gets off at my stop. As we walk to the parking lot he's got a very unsteady gait. He bypasses the cabs and town cars for his own vehicle. Now, what do you do?
Since there's never a cop around when you want one, I'd wait until the guy was far away before even starting my car. If I saw which direction he went, I'd go some other way. I've dealt with enough drunks on streetcars and buses, so the less I deal with them the better.
Faith and Conscience have value. A dozen years ago, unlicensed/intoxicated hunters cut down my fencelines and removed my postings. They opened fire upon me as I was leaving for NYC...terminated their activities, notified NJSP and was arrested for interfering with 'the hunt'and trying to commit leathal injury with malice with a machine gun. Burns me every day, got one year of unsupervised probation along with a clean record. Perps burglarised dozens of homes and farms...some were even informants for the prosecuters office.
So, you see a jerk consume a fourty and stagger out of an LIRR to an automobile. New Transit directives make it all too clear...report the situation to the appropriate law enforcement department after properly identifying yourself and leave it in their hands. That is it...you let 'experienced law enforcement' deal with their problem. Conscience cleared...duty fulfilled. What counts is Faith and Good Intent. If I'm on a trainset in the system and something goes wrong, I can lawfully stop that trainset BUT if I am determined wrong, i lose my job.
Choices are hard...living with the correct decision may be harder and lifelong. Schmuko downs a fourty, makes ten million dollars a year, gets busted for DWI and sues you for everything...better to know that you saved a miserable life. If you are really lucky the local paper prints the 'crime news.' One of the 'perps' was busted for possesion of a firearm during the course of a burglary...did he really nead a shotgun to protect himself as a prosecution office informant?
As a private citizen:
Minimum: look for a police officer to report it to.
Maximum (preferable): tail the guy discreetly to his car, write down his license plate, and call 911.
There is no obligation whatsoever to risk your personal health by trying to persuade the guy not to drive. You won't succeed anyway, and then he'll just drive away drunk and mad, which is even more dangerous. Probably this will not be the one day when the liquor clouds his judgment more seriouly than ever before and he causes a serious accident.
Wanna talk about a moral dilema - what do you do in this case? You board a LIRR train at Penn Station - heading for suburbia. When the lovely lady seated next to you with the long legs & short skirt gets up at Jamaica & a late 30ish guy takes her place.
You get off in Jamaica and follow the chick!
I'd probably go and tell an employee I'd dropped $100 on the tracks. I think you can get it "retrieved" that way. Of course, I'd then slip the employee $10 or something...
The problem is, if you leave the $100 on the tracks to go get the employee to say you dropped it....it probably won't be there when you get back with the employee....this is New York. If you had someone with you to "gaurd" the bill that may work, but if you are alone you may have a problem.
While I was at Grand Central yesterday, I usually go to the Transit Museum store to make purchases for my NY Tri-State Commuter rail layout when I noticed something new. If you remember as a kid, they had cut-out trains made of cardboard in books that you put together and take the shape of trains. The Transit Museum store has IRT R33S Cut-outs for sale at $2.50 per car. If you can't purchase HO scale subway cars which usually run for hundreds, this is a good opportunity to have your very own cardboard 7 train redbird cut-out. I purchased 10 myself( no space for 11 cars).
I got mine-it's of the 1st R33 Single to be reefed: 9321. They go for $2.17 per cutout.
#9334 7 Flushing Local
Thanks to those of you who helped me out with the Redbird 6 run. As Pelham Bay Dave said, they could always send out an R142 for that trip and naturally, the day I ride it they did. I had to chase it quite a bit. I missed it at BB, caught a 5 to 125th, then a 6 express to Parkchester, had to wait, and then got it heading back to BB. Got off at 86th hoping to beat it on the express to 42nd, missed it, and eventually got it again heading uptown, so I got two exterior shots, both of the rear. The consist had 6361 up front and 6440 as the 6th car. You all can figure out the rest.
I will have a detailed report tomorrow or the day after of my adventures on the E, 6, M79, M15, M103, M102, R, B, A, C, F, 7, 4, and 5 trains/buses. I have quite alot on the digital and hope to get that up within the week after I get home.
Also, if the people who I met today at 46th Street on the 7 wish to e-mail me, I would appreciate it. Once again, it was nice meeting you!
I understand the Second Avenue Line will be two tracks instead of the usual four. This seems to make no sense, as Express Service is the way to go.
Wouldn't a three track line, ala the Grand Concourse, with reversible time of day express service be a great compromise?
It depends on how the equipment will get to the point where the 3-track operation begins or how it will return from the point where it ends.
For example, if the Second Avenue Line is built with a terminal near South Ferry (one proposal) and there are no yard storage facilities or connections to other lines there, than you have halved the capacity of each of the two tracks being used in the direction of heavy travel.
In plain English, if you used two tracks southbound at capacity in the a.m. rush at capacity (assume 30 TPH each track) you have to be able to send 60 TPH north on a single track.
Manhattan els did something like this, but they achieved it by having trains in the counter-rush direction operate unsignalled under visual rules. They wouldn't do that now.
Or you take the example of the LIRR, which runs THREE tracks in the direction of heavy travel between Jamaica and Penn (one in the light direction). They can only do this by storing many trains in the huhe West Side yards all day.
OTOH, if the Second Avenue eventually hosts Brooklyn service, then you have an argument of which direction is the direction of heavy travel.
So ... if they could actually be talked into more than two, might as well go for four.
"So ... if they could actually be talked into more than two, might as well go for four."
I, too, can't see a three track second avenue subway line being built.. because Rush hour in manhattan pretty much covers both direction as you describe.
N Broadway
They can't be talked into more than two tracks. I've tried.
It's been determined that tunnel boring (using Tunnel Boring Machines, TBMs) is the least expensive way to build most of the Second Avenue subway (except at stations, where cut-and-cover would be used, and there would also be a few sections that would be mined). Unfortunately, there are no economies of scale with tunnel boring -- making four bored tunnels costs about twice as much as making two bored tunnels. There ARE economies of scale with cut-and-cover, but it's not enough of a difference to make a four-track cut-and-cover subway worth doing economically.
David
How about boring one huge tunnel with room inside for four tracks (2x2)?
If you do that the City will want to take it over for another water tunnel.
That's fine. Nobody will notice. Subway riders are used to drips in their stations.
Theres a thought, I Like that
Question, If the 4track wide is built, why cant they bore the 2 outer tunnels, then just dig out or blast away the center section? (building the boxes and adding the support beams as they go)
Or why cant it be 2 stacked boxes, become 4 only at the major transfer stations?
I was thinking you bore one 2 track tunnel (like the Chunnel) and then do a modified bore/cut to extend the tunnel down another level for sort of a Lexington Ave line effect. The whole thing would sort of look like a mailbox. The second tunnel would not have to be bored all the way as you could dig/drill down from the initial bore.
Prefer the 2 stacked box idea, wouldnt that be easier and faster to build?
Question tho, How far below would they have to bore to avoid all of the current utilities? (electric, water, ext)
I don't think a three-track line is necessary. The Second Avenue Subway will be a "semi-express", meaning that there will be a limited amounts of stops, and they will parallel the #4's express stops. I would prefer a four-track line with more stations, meaning express and local trains. But since that is not going to happen, I don't think we need an extra rush hour express in a line that will only be making limited stops. -Nick
"I understand the Second Avenue Line will be two tracks instead of the usual four."
There are many two track lines in Manhattan, such as the (7) and the (L). You also have the (2) and (3) which run two tracks north of West 96th Street, and the (1) which alternates between two and three tracks all the way from West 96th Street to The Bronx. Many such as the (1) again run (or at least used to) two tracks in downtown Manhattan.
Just because the East and West Side IRTs and the Eigth Avenue IND run four track alignments uptown and through midtown doesn't mean that a Second Avenue Subway will be ineffective if it has only two tracks.
As I've said countless times before: four tracks are better than two tracks, but two tracks are much better than no tracks.
MATT-2AV
As I've said countless times before: four tracks are better than two tracks, but two tracks are much better than no tracks.
And as I've replied countless times before: two tracks with provisions to expand to four tracks are better than no tracks, but it can be argued whether a permanent two-track arrangement right now is better than money in the bank so we may be able to afford four tracks down the road.
With the planned station spacing, it would be difficult to ever expand the line to four tracks. The stations are a bit too far apart to be local stops on a four-track line but they're too close to be express stops on a four-track line. If local stations were spaced 7-10 blocks apart, as on most other lines, we could hope for two express tracks to come along some day to relieve the inevitable overcrowding and to bypass most of the local stations. With stations spaced as planned, I'm not convinced the two-track line will ever become overcrowded, since a lot of people who live near 2nd Avenue will still have a shorter walk to the 6.
"With stations spaced as planned, I'm not convinced the two-track line will ever become overcrowded, since a lot of people who live near 2nd Avenue will still have a shorter walk to the 6."
Eyeballing the map, it looks to me like half of the upper east side (in land area) is closer to a SAS station than to a Lex station. In particular, the 72nd St SAS station will be incredibly attractive because of the lack of such a station on the Lex. The 86th St station also, because there is so much of Manhattan east of 2nd Ave at that point. Admittedly, the 66th and 77th St Lex stations won't get any noticeable relief from the SAS.
In any case, given that most of the UES is totally built up (most of the 5-story tenements are replaced by high rises), it's hard to see demand not being met by the combination of the SAS and the Lex in any of our lifetimes. Then there is also the likelihood of new technology eventually allowing completely safe operation of 40 tph on both Lex tracks and the SAS, for 120 tph total compared to the current 60.
So much as we all like express trains, it's hard to see a capacity crunch in this century if they build a 2-track SAS.
"...but it can be argued whether a permanent two-track arrangement right now is better than money in the bank so we may be able to afford four tracks down the road."
The Lexington is severly overcrowded now -- relief must be sought now.
I agree that the most logical thing to do would be to put express platforms in, either alongside or on a lower level, and then wall them off. We've discussed this before.
"With stations spaced as planned, I'm not convinced the two-track line will ever become overcrowded, since a lot of people who live near 2nd Avenue will still have a shorter walk to the 6."
From a map, it would at first appear so.
However, the majority of Lexington Avenue riders on the Upper East Side (UES) reside East of Lexington Avenue. Not only is there a greater population to the East, but the demographics of Park Avenue, Madison Avenue, and 5th Avenue, all to the West of Lexington, do not yield as high public transportation ridership.
Moreover, the distance from Lexington to, say, First Avenue is quite significant. In the area of the East 80's and low 90's, one must climb a hill when heading West. The currently proposed SAS station spacing does not make the Lexington Avenue local stops any closer to people on First Avenue, most of Second Avenue, and all points East.
The local stops on the Lexington Avenue line are spaced too close together anyway. They were designed almost 100 years ago for smaller trainsets. Local stops at 96th and 103rd? That's only a difference of 7 blocks. The train is 510 ft long to begin with. You leave one station, and you enter another.
Our legs on the East Side work. We'll be okay with the current SAS station spacing,
MATT-2AV
"The local stops on the Lexington Avenue line are spaced too close together anyway. They were designed almost 100 years ago for smaller trainsets. Local stops at 96th and 103rd? That's only a difference of 7 blocks. The train is 510 ft long to begin with. You leave one station, and you enter another."
your talking about the stations about 96th Street... But what about the stations below 96 street... Lets see... 96 - 86 = 10 -- 86 - 77 = 9 -- 77 - 68 = 9 and 68 - 59 = 9 again.... Compare that to the west side where there's two truck lines... 96 - 86 = 10 -- 86 - 81 that's only five blocks on the IND which was built later than the competing number 1.. But the next stop is 72.. than bam! 59 street.. which is about 11 blocks.. but understand there is a 66 street station on the number 1 line which is close enough to make a 66 street station on the IND irrelevant.
ANYway, the Lexington Avenue IRT was made when there was an elevated line on 3rd Avenue.. that explains why the stops are so far apart in comparison to the other lines.
N bwy
"We'll be okay with the current SAS station spacing,"
Mostly it makes sense. However, I'd be pretty upset if I lived at 79th (plus or minus a few blocks), anywhere from Lex east to East End. The SAS wouldn't help me at all.
Ditto for living at 65th plus or minus a few. The spacings from 86th to 72nd and 72nd to 56th are pretty wide.
The Lex stations at 68th and 77th aren't going to lose a single customer to the SAS, and they're pretty busy right now. At least the #6 trains will be less full when they pull into the stations, though.
The Lexington is severly overcrowded now -- relief must be sought now.
And never mind what happens in the future? How shortsighted.
However, the majority of Lexington Avenue riders on the Upper East Side (UES) reside East of Lexington Avenue. Not only is there a greater population to the East, but the demographics of Park Avenue, Madison Avenue, and 5th Avenue, all to the West of Lexington, do not yield as high public transportation ridership.
You missed my point. Due to station spacing, a lot of people who live closer to the 2nd Avenue line would still walk to Lex. Say I live at 77th and 2nd. Do I walk five blocks south (and uphill) to the north end of the new 72nd Street station and then descend 70 feet or do I walk about the same distance (less, according to the SAS planning maps) to the shallow 77th Street station on the 6? Or maybe I'm going to 60th and 2nd. Do I get off at 54th and 2nd and climb the hill to 60th, or do I take the 4/5/6 (express, if I'm coming from an express stop) to 59th (which has exits at 60th) and walk east?
The local stops on the Lexington Avenue line are spaced too close together anyway. They were designed almost 100 years ago for smaller trainsets. Local stops at 96th and 103rd? That's only a difference of 7 blocks. The train is 510 ft long to begin with. You leave one station, and you enter another.
Bad example. The Broadway IRT was built in 1904 with stations at 96th and 103rd. The Lex IRT was built in 1918 with stations at 96th and 103rd. The CPW IRT was built in 1932 with stations at 96th and 103rd, and it had 600-foot trains from the start. Three different sets of planners found it appropriate to have stations at 96th and 103rd; you can disagree, but you can't brush them off that easily.
Besides, I don't have a problem with the 96th-106th span. I do have a problem with the 54th-72nd and 72nd-86th spans, and with the outrageous 106th-125th span (rightfully being reconsidered).
If I were asked to propose local and express stations on a four-track 2nd Avenue line, here's what I'd suggest (north of Houston), including transfers. (Express stations are starred.)
*Houston (Rivington-Houston), transfer to F/V
St. Marks (6-9)
*14 (14-17), transfer to L
23 (23-26)
34 (31-34)
*42 (39-42), transfer to 7 via moving walkway to 3rd
53 (50-53), transfer to E/V via moving walkway to 3rd
[connection to Queens line]
*60 (60-63), transfer to N/R/W and F via moving walkways to 3rd
[connection to Broadway line]
72 (69-72)
79 (77-80)
*86 (85-88)
96 (93-96)
103 (101-104)
110 (110-113)
*122 (119-122)
[express tracks end with provisions for extension to the Bronx; local tracks turn west on 125 with stops and transfers at Lex-Park, Lenox, St. Nicholas, and Broadway, terminating at either Riverbank State Park or Grant's Tomb]
Our legs on the East Side work. We'll be okay with the current SAS station spacing,
You'll be okay, but how many of you will ride it?
You're right to be concerned about the 54-72 spacing.
A station can be added in future, however, given sufficient demand.
As to the track above 106th Street: As of the last meeting I attended, MTA had agreed to build a station at 116th Street.
"I do have a problem with the 54th-72nd and 72nd-86th spans, and with the outrageous 106th-125th span (rightfully being reconsidered). "
The map on the MTA site shows a stop at 116th. The other two big spans (leaving 60th St and 79th St totally unserved) definitely leave big areas where the SAS is useless.
"*Houston (Rivington-Houston), transfer to F/V
St. Marks (6-9)
*14 (14-17), transfer to L"
I think their proposal is better; the stop at St Marks isn't worth the extra time and money: Houston (I'd recommend Houston-2nd) and 14th (I'd recommend 12th-14th) would suffice.
- Rivington is pretty near both Grand and Bowery stations
- St Marks is pretty near Astor Place, and also near 12th, and besides the 8th St crosstown bus supplies only a tiny fraction of the traffic that the 14th St buses provide)
- 17th is getting near to 23rd
Your suggestion makes for a 10-block gap from the north end of one station to the south end of the next. That's pretty long. The gaps in my proposal were all 5-6 blocks long. (Yes, 17th is pretty close to 23rd, but I have the station at 23rd running north to 26th so the hospitals get decent service. The other option I was considering was a station at 28th.)
"Your suggestion makes for a 10-block gap from the north end of one station to the south end of the next."
Yes, but (a) Astor Place is close by, (b) 8th St (N/R) is another short block away, and (c) the evidence of bus frequency indicates the demand is not that high. The M8 has 6 peak buses per hour and they're comfortably full; the M14 has 37 buses per hour and they're packed to the rafters.
For similar reasoning to (a), there is no CPW stop at 66th. Unlike the Upper East Side, the Lex at Astor Place is only comfortably full, and there is no serious need to offload. Better to provide faster service for the 2nd Ave riders.
"And never mind what happens in the future? How shortsighted."
Hmmm.... I don't recall saying anything about not minding the future. In fact, I seem to remember something I wrote about recommending that certain stations should be built with express platforms, and that the express lines should be built later.
The Second Avenue Subway (SAS) will be difficult to get built, what with the way politics and budgets are now. Conditions on the Lexington IRT are bad right now, and there is urgent need for relief. If we refuse to break ground unless we have a four track alignment, more of the same will happen: overcrowding and nothing getting built.
I will consider myself fortunate to get two tracks.
Now let me ask you a question: what would you rather have, two tracks (as currently planned plus the stop at 116) or nothing? If you say nothing, then that's fine, and you can go into the category of people who oppose the
If the money were available, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
"The CPW IRT was built in 1932 with stations at 96th and 103rd..."
The CPW line was built as part of the IND system, not the IRT.
"...and it had 600-foot trains from the start. Three different sets of planners found it appropriate to have stations at 96th and 103rd; you can disagree, but you can't brush them off that easily."
Old planning does not necessarily mean good planning. I believe the IND system as a whole is genius, but the mistake of locating stations too close together was repeated.
"Besides, I don't have a problem with the 96th-106th span. I do have a problem with the 54th-72nd and 72nd-86th spans, and with the outrageous 106th-125th span (rightfully being reconsidered)."
I think the 106th to 125th span will be reconsidered. Lets assume that it is.
Okay, now what about the 54th to 72nd Street span. If I'm not mistaken, won't some trains head down the 63rd Street line? There is a station, I believe, at 63rd and Lexington/3rd already.
So people coming to this station take the train that travels down 63rd Street, and the rest continue on. 63rd is halway between 54th and 72nd. Its a good location, but hard to fit a station in at the junction there.
Possibly for less than building a whole new station at 63rd, an entrance could be put at 63rd and 2nd, and moving walkways and escalators could connect those people to the 63rd and 3rd Street station undergound.
The 72nd to 86th Street span is also pretty long. You are right, if I were someone right at 79th and 2nd Avenue, I would walk to the Lexington line. In fact, points East of 2nd might even be closer.
"If I were asked to propose local and express stations on a four-track 2nd Avenue line, here's what I'd suggest (north of Houston), including transfers. (Express stations are starred.)
*Houston (Rivington-Houston), transfer to F/V
St. Marks (6-9)
*14 (14-17), transfer to L
23 (23-26)
34 (31-34)
*42 (39-42), transfer to 7 via moving walkway to 3rd
53 (50-53), transfer to E/V via moving walkway to 3rd
[connection to Queens line]
*60 (60-63), transfer to N/R/W and F via moving walkways to 3rd
[connection to Broadway line]
72 (69-72)
79 (77-80)
*86 (85-88)
96 (93-96)
103 (101-104)
110 (110-113)
*122 (119-122)
[express tracks end with provisions for extension to the Bronx; local tracks turn west on 125 with stops and transfers at Lex-Park, Lenox, St. Nicholas, and Broadway, terminating at either Riverbank State Park or Grant's Tomb]"
As for what you suggest, I think that is the optimal solution. I just don't know if we can foot the bill.
MATT-2AV
The 63rd St/Lex stop on the F line will provide a reasonable additional stop, but only for the Stubway; remember that full-length 2nd Av trains will not be stopping there. I hope there will be opportunity to add another station before then.
"The 63rd St/Lex stop on the F line will provide a reasonable additional stop"
Not sure which posting to respond to.
Note that the 63rd/Lex stop ALREADY EXISTS with 15 tph of service down toward 6th Ave, and gets far less use than any other Upper East Side station on the Lex.
(Why is that? I think because of the numerous other stops already in the vicinity: 60th and Lex, 60th and 5th, 68th and Lex)
Anyway, that stop will be slightly more convenient for people in the east 60s once (if?) the 3rd Ave end is opened, but it'll still be a block further west than 2nd Ave, and quite a hike from a place like 68th and York.
So I would agree that the east 60s (along with the general area of East 79th St) are very poorly served by the current SAS plan.
Note that the 63rd/Lex stop ALREADY EXISTS with 15 tph of service down toward 6th Ave, and gets far less use than any other Upper East Side station on the Lex.
Remember though that the station at 63rd/Lex is actually two ISLAND platforms on two levels, not two WALL platforms on two levels. When the 2nd Ave line gets built, there will be across the platform transfers there, as all they have to do is take down the walls that run right down the middle of the "real" platforms. There are two abandoned "1/2" platforms at both the upper and lower levels, with the trackways also.
All I was saying is that Lex and 63rd is not particularly useful to most residents of the Upper east Side, even those in the East 60s, and the proof is that it currently gets low usage even though it has 15 tph to the central business district.
OTOH, that station is a big pain to get into and out of. Going in, you have to decide in advance whether to use the (many) escalators or the elevator, since they're in different fare control areas. Going out, if you don't catch the elevator the first time it comes, it'll be a long wait for it to come back. I think most commuters from around there find it easier and faster to walk the three blocks to the shallower and more frequent N/R/W.
But neither the F nor the N/R/W is relevant to those who simply want to go straight down the East Side.
Hmmm.... I don't recall saying anything about not minding the future. In fact, I seem to remember something I wrote about recommending that certain stations should be built with express platforms, and that the express lines should be built later.
But if the stations are too far apart to be reasonable local stations and too close together to be reasonable express stations, the resulting four-track line won't be very useful -- either the local will make too few stops or the express will make too many.
The Second Avenue Subway (SAS) will be difficult to get built, what with the way politics and budgets are now. Conditions on the Lexington IRT are bad right now, and there is urgent need for relief. If we refuse to break ground unless we have a four track alignment, more of the same will happen: overcrowding and nothing getting built.
We already broke ground once before, and look what good it did us.
While the additional funds for a four-track or four-track-compatible line are searched for, temporary solutions could be implemented. For instance, partition two lanes on 2nd and two lanes on 1st for use by buses only, at all times, with (virtually) no exceptions, and with automatic enforcement by camera. Turn the M15 Limited into a subway-like bus route. That won't do as a permanent solution but it could do for now.
Now let me ask you a question: what would you rather have, two tracks (as currently planned plus the stop at 116) or nothing? If you say nothing, then that's fine, and you can go into the category of people who oppose the
Would I rather have two tracks now or nothing ever? Two tracks, of course.
Would I rather have two tracks now or the possibility of four tracks eventually? I don't know. It depends on what the two-track and four-track proposals look like and how likely the four-track version is. (Then again, I think it's quite unlikely that construction will begin in any form in the next 25 years.)
The CPW line was built as part of the IND system, not the IRT.
A typo. Thanks for the correction.
Old planning does not necessarily mean good planning. I believe the IND system as a whole is genius, but the mistake of locating stations too close together was repeated.
Subway route planners disagreed on all sorts of stuff. One place they all agreed was the 96-103-110-116-125 sequence. You don't have to agree, but it's going to take more than a flippant "too close!" to convince anyone else.
(Incidentally, I have strong disagreements with some of the original IND planning principles, most notably that outer borough locals were not to cross the East River. Fortunately, saner heads prevailed when service patterns were devised.)
I think the 106th to 125th span will be reconsidered. Lets assume that it is.
That's fair. It is being reconsidered.
Okay, now what about the 54th to 72nd Street span. If I'm not mistaken, won't some trains head down the 63rd Street line? There is a station, I believe, at 63rd and Lexington/3rd already.
So people coming to this station take the train that travels down 63rd Street, and the rest continue on. 63rd is halway between 54th and 72nd. Its a good location, but hard to fit a station in at the junction there.
Two problems with that. First, that station's at Lex, not at 2nd. (Okay, the platforms run as far east as 3rd, and there are even rumors of a sealed mezzanine there which could be opened. It's still not 2nd.) Second, only trains from the north can turn west at 63rd -- what about people trying to get the 60's from the south?
Based on the current plan, adding a station around 63rd would be trivial; the junction wouldn't interfere, since it would be well beneath the north-south line.
The 72nd to 86th Street span is also pretty long. You are right, if I were someone right at 79th and 2nd Avenue, I would walk to the Lexington line. In fact, points East of 2nd might even be closer.
Closer to what? Since the streets in that part of Manhattan are on a grid, if it's a shorter walk from 79th and 2nd to the Lex than to the SAS, then it's a shorter walk from any point on 79th east of 2nd to the Lex than to the SAS. Coming from east of 2nd, I think many would be inclined to take the M79 straight to Lex and walk two blocks to the subway there, as they do now.
As for what you suggest, I think that is the optimal solution. I just don't know if we can foot the bill.
So do it piecemeal. Build a subset of these stations, allowing for the option of adding the others and a second pair of tracks at a later date.
"One place they all agreed was the 96-103-110-116-125 sequence."
That's very interesting. The same station sequence was repeated by different designers.
Now I'm throwing this open here, but I wonder if the reason they all agreed was because there was no other reason but to agree?
In other words, if the first line had established the said station sequence, and there was little or no basis for it, do you suppose the other deisgners followed suit, grasping for a reason, and when finding none, decided to do what had been done before?
I find this a lot in Civil Engineering. When asked why something was done, an engineer will shrug his shoulders and claim that that was what was done before.
I don't know the exact history of development of Manhattan north of 96th Street. But if development was sparse, do you think the station stops were simply laid out according to no other need than a presumption of future development? Or was Manhattan already built up that far north by then. My building was finished in 1899, so its possible.
I don't know the answer to this. I just find it curious.
MATT-2AV
It's a good question, and I don't know the answer. But notice that south of 96, the three lines differ. If the designers were just copycatting, why didn't they copycat south of 96 -- or north of 125, for that matter?
By the time the IND came along, the area was certainly developed or under development.
I would guess in at least some cases, there was probaly a pre-existing crosstown streetcar line. In turn, if the street was already a commercial strip rater than mostly housing, the decision would be clear.
106th is the only wide cross-street below 125th that has no way of going through from river to river. There is no 106th St Central Park transverse road. So 106th is not as important a street as its width would usually make it. Perhaps it had no streetcar or bus service back then.
110th is a more important cross street than 106th (or it made it more important back then; by now 106th is pretty busy), since it is a wide street west of 5th Ave and goes through (almost) from river to river.
Therefore probably buses or streetcars did use 110th rather than 106th.
Then you also need 103rd, since the spacing from 96th to 110th is too far.
I think a walk a little farther, ride a little faster plan makes sense. For those who cannot or will not, there is the bus with a transfer.
"103 (101-104)
110 (110-113)
*122 (119-122)"
I agree with you up to this point... There's really no need for two stations if you can create one that is closer...
96 than 106.. than 116 and lastly 125th Street...
122nd just doesn't make since at all.. according to the plan I've seen earlier.
"[express tracks end with provisions for extension to the Bronx; local tracks turn west on 125 with stops and transfers at Lex-Park, Lenox, St. Nicholas, and Broadway, terminating at either Riverbank State Park or Grant's Tomb]"
St. Nicholas or Bwy is sufficent enough.. no need for service to Riverside Drive... except, maybe, a yard can be built..
N Bwy
Ignore the names of the proposed stations -- it's the locations that are relevant, since I assume there will be exits at each end. From bottom to top, the line has a consistent 5-6 blocks from the north end of one station to the south end of the next.
122nd and not 125th to give the local tracks space to make a reasonably gentle curve westward. If the station is up against 125th, the turn will be sharp and slow.
St. Nicholas is definitely not enough; Broadway is cut off from the rest of the world there and it could use a connection. The 125th Street crosstown would give people in the northwest access to 2nd Avenue south of 63rd without backtracking twice.
It doesn't have to go past Broadway, but there's a state park nearby that's a good hike from the nearest subway station. Why not extend the new line to it? Once the tracks reach the river, they can come up to the surface and run along the Fairway parking lot and HHP offramp directly into the park. And, yes, there might be room somewhere around there for a yard, near the Manhattanville bus depot.
"St. Nicholas is definitely not enough; Broadway is cut off from the rest of the world there and it could use a connection. The 125th Street crosstown would give people in the northwest access to 2nd Avenue south of 63rd without backtracking twice."
The reason why I question Bwy is for two reasons: 1) This is an elevated line that will require a substantial connection -- at great height, and, 2) there's a fault line in this area.. so I don't know... if it could be potentially dangerous to build something there.
N Bwy
*42 (39-42), transfer to 7 via moving walkway to 3rd
Does the 7 train's station at GCT reach that far East?
The east end of the platform is a bit west of 3rd. See the neighborhood map (PDF).
You've cited 2-track examples that are either connecting branches
or the end of a line. It's not necessary to have express ability
there. A major north-south trunk line that is only 2 tracks is
going to quickly become a problem. If at least a 3rd track is not
built, then one would hope that the 2 tracks are fully
bi-directionally signalled and that frequent diamond crossovers
are provided. Otherwise, one BIE or sick passenger and your
entire rush hour is screwed.
From the Philadelphia Zoo directions page:
"Public Transportation
Public transportation is available on SEPTA Trolley #15 or the Philly Phlash shuttle, which stops at the Zoo every ten minutes."
The Rt15 Girard St. trolley line "is slated to begin in 2003," as in at least 4 months from now, proabably longer. You'd think that the people who update the zoo's site could just look out at Girard, wait for the next Rt15 vehicle to go by, and base their results off of this.
I can see it now:
"Wait wait here comes one,"
"What is it?"
"Damn just a Neoplan, it's still a bus line, put the site up, we don't need to update that part."
Also the site makes no mention of the fact that to get from center city to the Zoo by trolley, you must transfer from the Rt 10 trolley on lancaster ave where it crosses Girard ave. How many people do you think will be down at Juniper St waiting for a Rt15 Trolley that will never come?
To get to the zoo from Center City it'd be better to take the Broad Street Subway to Girard, then transfer to 15. Taking the 10 trolley to Lancaster and Girard would be going FAR out of the way.
Mark
Not to mention being in a shitty neighborhood
Ain't that the truth! But there is one spot of hope in the nieghborhood. Not far from that intersection is the 4900 block of Stiles Street. The block was essentially taken over by Habitat for Humanity West Philadelphia. Most of the houses on that block have been rehabbed and sold to owner-occupants, and the houses that were beyond hope were torn down, and the lots sold to the homeowners on the block to use as yards and gardens. There's a real night-and-day difference between that block and the rest of the area.
Mark
I was lucky enough to get Redbirds each way on the 7 express. In the AM was a good ridem not too much crowding despite being down to 10 cars.
Going back in the afternoon was jam packed, especially when an N let out across the platform at QueensboroPlaza. Got squashed against the railfan window till Junction, when the Junction mob left.
Good speed both ways, still plenty of birds out there.
Also going from Canal to 49th street an the N, a Slant R40, a train supervisor was sitting in a fold up chair training the T/O.
He was saying how ppl save nothing by switching to an express from a local. And he was right on the money. Alot of ppl got off at 14th street to get a Q, only to get off at 42nd and get back on the N for the 49st local stop. I never do that anymore. If you are going to a local stop, taking the local is quicker, than getting on an express for a stop or two. And the weather was FAB today, especially for Chinatown. :-)
I hear a rumor that one of our more knowledgable train operators will be following one of our more vocal (former) conductors over to the other side of the Hudson. Harry, say it ain't so but if it is
I WISH YOU
THE BEST OF LUCK
Is it so...is Harry trying to escape evil influence in the YAHD? Unca Steve, make Harry happy! Get rid of the old trainsets, bring in the newest tech, give me lollypops, let me play with the bugs and sit upon the dollys. Can Harry be bloated with too much fun from 'Train Dude Land?' CI Peter
Harry said offline to me he was changing gears and going across the Hudson. Surprise, surprise. I too, wish him nothing but the very best in his new endeavor.
-Stef
TA's Loss Is PATH's Gain!!
To My Favorite T/O Harry,
You truly are THE MAN!!
I'll miss you, H.
~Carlos
Just got off the phone with a LIRR engineer friend of mine. He says he went for classroom training for the M-7's. He charged up and ran the M-7, although slow, through Hillside Yard. There was no testing with students on the main line.
The cab he says is comfortable and looks much like the R-143 with two monitor screens. He says the screen shows how many cars in the consist as well as their cars numbers. I joked about the screen displaying the car number with the backed up toilet. Who knows, maybe it does.
He said the full width cab door closes much the R-62/62A so the cab can be locked mid-train so passengers can change cars. I guess much like SEPTA's B-IV cars.
I asked the controversial question why a single door leaf and not dual door leaf. He said it is an FRA rule that if one door leaf fails, the other one MUST be cut out. He thinks because of this rule, the LIRR feels if a single door leaf fails, it's the same as a dual door leaf failing. Also a maintenance issue is also considered.
He says the talk is the first revenue passenger run will be a Long Beach train to Brooklyn. It's too early to tell if this is so and what day it will happen. He also says there are about eighteen M-7's on the property.
AND NOW FOR SOME GREAT NEWS ! In the short time the M-7's have hit the LIRR rails, and have been tested in the wee hours on all the electrified branches, they have run 15,000 miles without a single failure ! That should make some R-142 critics envious.
That's it for now, anything new, I'll post.
Bill "Newkirk"
Great and interesting news. Thanks!
Thanks for the information!
Good point about the FRA rule.
It does sound like Bombardier has put together a very nice transit vehicle there.
Finally!
>>Good point about the FRA rule.
It does sound like Bombardier has put together a very nice transit vehicle there.<<
It should also be noted that the M-7 is heavier than the M-3 which in turn is heavier then the M-1. One reason is the FRA mandated crash posts.
Bill "Newkirk"
I can't wait to see them in service. But I can't wait to eventually see them other than city limits like Ronkonkoma.
It's about time!
-Stef
I'd bet 6801-05 are not too far....Heh.
-Stef
Dame you guys are fast. I saw the train on the lead @ Lovonia yard at 10:15pm while I was doing C/R for my R143 T/O class. I was going to post it now.
Robert
You mean Linden Yard.
-Stef
Linden Yard, What ever. I only been there a few times, when I was on work trains.
Robert
R142s today, R142s tomorrow. Next week, SM4 inspection and I will show the crew how to change gearbox oil. DS wants THAT trainset to be on the 239th 'Broadway' because of the need for space to accomodate the machinery dolly. Many unhappy CIs working the inside track...bigger job will be to remove sealed drain plugs and fill plugs from the 'storage car fleet.' CI Peter
Another one for the record books....
On that note, there also appears to be a second R-142A set in service on the 4. That should be 7676-80 and 7691-95, unless I'm mistaken.
Cars 7696-7705 are on the property and started testing for 4 Service this evening.
-Stef
Wow! The R142A's are comin in fast and furious.
7026-7030 are R142s.Just wanted to clear this up.U probably knew this though
R142/R143MAN
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250/index.html
I saw one set on the 4 yesterday, I can try to look at my picture and see the number. I had to take it through the pylons at Brooklyn Bridge, it was heading to Brooklyn, I was on the uptown platform.
I say that because I saw an R-142A train depart south at 149th St this afternoon. Moments later, Cars 7661-70 came by northbound. I took the train to Fordham Rd, stopped off at the local bank, and went up on a Redbird to Woodlawn. I met up with 7661-70 again at Woodlawn. The Redbird came in on the other track.
-Stef
I saw redbirds 9188 and 9189, coupled together, on a garbage train. EP0005 was on the other end. And there were 2 or 3 flats in between. The train went nb and then sb through 96 St on the West Side IRT. This was at around 12:05am Wednesday morning.
EXCELLENT!!!! Im Glad to hear. Id rather see them in work service. instead of the depths of the Atlantic.
Add: Redbird Signal Dolly sightings
at Union Sqr (4/5/6) and 207 Layup (1/9)..
Cars 8958-8959-Dolly-9214-9215
I just saw two guys fare-beat at 191 St on the West Side IRT. The booth lady was looking down. I think she just allows it to happen. It was pretty obvious. The guys just hopped over the turnstile.
Let me ask you, what can she do? Nothing. Except to say "Pay Your Fare!" Would you suggest she run after them? That is for the police to handle. Station Agents are powerless in stopping fare beaters.
-Stef
She could at least look up and pretend she cares...watch them fare-beat. Just so they know she saw them.
No taking action encourages them to do it again plus encourages other's. whether or not the fare beater wad caught is not important. IT sends a messages to other would be fare beaters.
Back in my younger days as a little lad, Almost never paid. THe Station agent did nothing we kept walking through the gate.
I agree. We have the same problem here; a lot of our ticket clerks spend most of their shifts with their noses buried in a book and don't pay any attention to what's happening in the station. (And don't EVEN get me started about what happened once when I -- in uniform -- tried to report an escalator problem.)
Having the ticket clerk pay attention to what's happening acts as something of a deterrent. It won't stop everybody, but it'll stop some people, and at least everybody knows they're under supervision. When the ticket clerk isn't paying any attention, you might as well not have the ticket clerk there at all; just put in a friggin' ticket machine instead.
Mvh Tim
The station agent probably figured that if she called the police, they'd arrive long after the fare-beaters had gotten on a train and left the station. There's not much that can be done in situations like this, except posting more undercover police in stations.
Exactly!!!
-Stef
I saw it happen at Canal street, once the token booth clerk saw they radioed the cops.
There were 3 redbirds on the 2 line today, the most I've seen in quite some time. Meanwhile, the 5 line was about 50/50 redbird/142. I saw 7001 on the 5 today. I didn't know they ran Kawasaki's on the 5.
Eh? No......... Those are option order R-142s. 142As start at 7211.
-Stef
I saw the 70xx set today on my way home....and the 69xx set too..8^)
170 R142s in service on #5 per my DS. CI Peter
I saw 7000 on the 5 yesterday and was quite surprised. I was also surprised at the number of R142s on the 5, it did seem to be 50/50.
170 cars...seventeen trainsets. We should be getting up to date laptops in the near future to interrogate systems. Redbirds coming in for scheduled maintainance are real wrecks that the crew did not flag upon the last inspection. The big news: MDBF is best in the division with running Redbirds. Bigger news: new Car Inspectors were notified of their status as permanent employees. So where is most of the September 17th CI class???? MAKING TRAINS GO on the #5. CI peter
Another bad experience with a conductor yesterday, this time on the IRT.
Scene: Southbound #1 train, approximately 7:30 p.m. Train consists of R-62 cars. I am riding in the third car. Train pulls into Hoyt Street, doors open, passengers enter and exit. Chimes sound, doors start to close. Most passengers are seated, a few are standing holding poles in the middle of the car.
The forward pair of doors on the platform side in my car doesn't close completely. One door starts to close, but bounces backward limply.
Conductor announces: "Please stand clear of the closing doors."
Another attempt to close the doors. Door bounces open again.
Conductor announces: "Stand clear of the doors in the front, please."
Another two attempts to close the doors. Errant door continues to bounce open after closing most of the way. Riders start to look up from their newspapers and magazines.
Conductor announces, more loudly: "Stand clear in the front!"
Another few attempts. Door continues to bounce.
Conductor again, outright yelling this time: "Stand clear in the front! STOP HOLDING THE DOORS!"
Another few, rapid attempts to close the doors. Door-bouncing continues.
Conductor, yelling louder: "ATTENTION PASSENGERS! THIS TRAIN IS NOT MOVING UNTIL THE PASSENGER HOLDING THE DOORS IN THE FRONT LETS GO OF THE DOOR!!"
Another attempt to close the door. Another bounce. Passengers in third car glance at each other with equal amounts of amusement and annoyance.
Conductor, yelling again: "LET GO OF THE DAMN DOOR IN THE FRONT!" A young, male passenger in car three jumps up from his seat, pokes his head out the door and yells back "THE DOOR IS F***ING BROKEN, GET OFF YOUR *** AND COME LOOK!!"
Finally, the conductor appears, examines the errant door and determines that it is indeed not working properly. The passenger load is promptly dumped.
Sadly, this is not an uncommon scene. I find that many subway conductors are rude, lazy and tend to blame passengers for train defects. Someone should explain to these conductors that passengers pay for their trips and should not be yelled at like cattle.
I find that many subway conductors are rude, lazy and tend to blame passengers for train defects.
True, some are rude. Most are nice.
Someone should explain to these conductors that passengers pay for their trips and should not be yelled at like cattle.
Someone should explain to you that you don't, in fact, pay for the full cost of the ride. If you wish to pay $5 for your subway ride, we're perfectly happy to not yell at you. Put the $1.50 in the turnstile when you enter the station. When you board the train, put the balance of $3.50 in a white envelope and slide it underneath the conductor's door.
AEM7
I don't care if I was riding as a guest of the Mayor, I should not be subjected to a Conductor's obnoxiousness. Once a couple of attempts have been made to close the doors and nothing obvious appears to be blocking the doors, then the Conductor's job is to investigate the problem and take the appropriate action and not shriek like a banshee from his/her position.
You are %100 right. The C/R or the T/O sould have call command and told them that they have a hund gard light and they are going to check it out. The C/R should never have screemed over the P/A. I have worked with one C/R with the same problem, he also stated to yell. I had to speek to him on the I/C to find out what was wrong. I turned out the be a big pen cap stuck in the track of the door. The C/R made me look bad when I went it find the problem.
Robert
So I have to pay $5 a trip not to get yelled at? Its not enough that I already pay for 60% of the ride?
I ride the LIRR daily and my money pays for even less of the cost of the trip than the NYCT trip, yet I am treated much better by LIRR conductors.
Someone should explain to these conductors that passengers pay for their trips and should not be yelled at like cattle.
Someone should explain to you that you don't, in fact, pay for the full cost of the ride. If you wish to pay $5 for your subway ride, we're perfectly happy to not yell at you. Put the $1.50 in the turnstile when you enter the station. When you board the train, put the balance of $3.50 in a white envelope and slide it underneath the conductor's door.
That's Complete Bullshit. What's not covered by the farebox is covered by taxes, which we as passengers also pay. Either way, the C/R is ultimately paid by the passengers. The idea that I'm not paying for my ride is ludicrous!
Besides that, as a passenger, I should be treated like a customer by any and all employees, including a C/R, providing a service, not like cattle, or geese, or whatever the C/R may wish to call us. In my job, if I were to treat my customers like the C/R in the message which began this thread, I would be fired so fast there would be trails of fire in my wake.
Furthermore, there is no such thing as job protection or job security in my office. I could be fired at the whim of an executive looking to cut headcount without warning or obligation to provide severence. It's like this in most Fortune 500 companies. This is not to mention the fact that it's very likely that I, as a mid-level manager, make less than most C/R's with decent seniority.
So don't feed me this horseshit about how difficult it is to be a C/R and how those nasty passengers cause all of the problems for transit workers and how MTA management makes life hell.
It's tough all over.
Why should a conductor get any special leeway to treat his customers so poorly? As far as I'm concerned, as a customer paying for a product, I deserve to be treated that way. If I can't show a bad mood or a bad day to my customers, I shouldn't have to put up with it when I'm the customer, no matter what product or service I'm purchasing.
Please realize that you are not just moving metal boxes from place-to-place, but that those metal boxes contain people. The next time you're on the telephone with customer service, or are making a purchase in a retail shop, or are transacting business at your bank, think about how you'd feel if, say, the teller upbraided you, louldly and publicly for filling out your deposit slip incorrectly.
Transit workers are not special. We're all work-a-day folk. If more people were taught this, we would not have this sad state of customer service which now pervades our culture.
If you're having a bad day, or you hate your job, and especially if you don't know the meaning of the word "service," please find something else to do with your life, or at least learn that there is nobody working who doesn't have to deal with some amount of crap The best workers learn how to live with this without taking it out on their customers!
So, you never screw up at work?
As a suggestion: Next time, get the car number you are in (posted at each end of the car, inside and out), the time and station you are at and call and/or write to NYC Transit to complain. Bitching here won't do a damned thing to solving the problem. Complaining to management with as much information as possible MIGHT help get the idiot removed from service.
If the bosses don't know, they can't even begin to fix it.
I don't want to affect anyone's livelihood. I just want them to remember that they aren't moving cattle, just people like them.
In which case, you're preaching to the choir here.
Complain, get car #'s and something will be done. I've witnessed at Parsons a C/R taken out of service for being rude over the P.A.
He should have checked the doors sooner for sure. Rulebook states open and close TWICE then call it in as a door problem. At 7:30 that applies, although I tend to use my judgement, as I've called in 2 problems during rush hour (tried five times) turned out to be a passenger holding the door and every time got indication as I was leaving the cab. "Control, I'm going to investigate... Oh wait, never mind, just got indication." :)
The only thing I hate, and I can see as the cause of this is the way employeesthey are hassled over such things, so nobody wants to deal with it. So they figure just keep opening and closing the doors until it fixes itself. I see a problem, do what I need to do, end of story.
Not that I'm trying to make an excuse but its the way a LOT of employees feel nowadays, the 'less hassle the better'.
I understand your point, but I must tell you no one ever hassled me for checking on a door problem. You get the occasional smart remarks, just ignore them and do what you have to do. They'll realize soon enough that the longer they get in your way, the longer the train sits there.
I understand your point, but I must tell you no one ever hassled me for checking on a door problem. You get the occasional smart remarks, just ignore them and do what you have to do.
Neither have I, but fortunately the one time I've delt with a door it was in my car. And I did ignore Control because it was so quick. But there are instances where Control would have a TSS meet a conductor who didn't answer his radio while dealing with a door problem.
They'll realize soon enough that the longer they get in your way, the longer the train sits there.
I agree 100%. The way I see it is they're messing up their railroad, not mine, and if they want to do that, I could care less.
Quit bitching about a man who's just trying to do his job. It's NYC,AND it's the subway. Sometimes thngs are unpleasant in NYC. Sometimes they're unpleasant on the train. Let the conductors do their job--if a little yelling is involved, so be it. At least it's a person yelling-I'll take that over an R-142 yelling at me any day.
I like getting yelled at by an R142A! Wouldn't you prefer " Please , for your own safety, DO NOT HOLD THE CAR DOORS WHILE THE TRAIN IS IN THE STATION, thank you." instead of " !@#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$#@!~!@#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$#@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@#$%^&*_" which is the english translation of whatever stuff the C|R is muttering while the microphone is too close to their mouth.
That is a TRANSCRIPTION not a TRANSLATION.
You've probably seen the London versions of this announcement...
"Please allow the doors to close. Try not to confuse this with ' Please hold the doors open'. The two are distinct and separate instructions."
"Please note that the beeping noise coming from the doors means that the doors are about to close. It does not mean throw yourself or your bags into the doors."
"Please mind the closing doors..."
The doors close...The doors reopen. Repeat several times.
"This is a customer announcement, please note that the big slidy things are the doors, the big slidy things are the doors. Let's try it again, shall we? Please stand clear of the doors."
The doors close... "Thank you."
"to the gentleman wearing the long grey coat trying to get on the second carriage, what part of 'stand clear of the doors' don't you understand."
"We can't move off because some c*nt has their f*cking hand stuck in the door"
And the on where they thought they had the PA system switched off...
"bollocks to the lot of them, I don't care if they don't make it to work."
I nearly fell off my seat in laughter the first time I saw one of those scrolling R-142 messages: "We aPoloGize for the unavoidable delaY." Seems like someone forgot to leave space for descenders. It's fixed in the R-143.
Either that or the conductor was composing a ransom note. :)
You mean like this?:
We aPoloGize for the unavoidable delaY
Not even close, AFAIK.
I had, back in the dark ages, a Commodore 64 and a wierd dot-matrix printer that had no descenders. j,y,p and q were all printed a half line higher, so that the usually descending characters stuck up, making the line very hard to read. As soon as somebody came up with a device to couple a parallel printer to Commodore's serial bus, I replaced the wierd printer with a Panasonic 1090 that moved to my first XT when the 64 was junked.
That's exactly what the R-142 interior displays do. Service information is in full caps, so the issue doesn't arise normally, but scrolling messages like "We apologize for the unavoidable delay" look very odd.
Speaking of which -- on R-142's (et. al.), are C/R's still allowed to make announcements of that sort in person?
The R142A's on the 4 have the scrolling delay message in full capital letters. I noticed it when I rode the 4's sole R142A train on Wednesday and Thursday.
Wise move. I'm glad to see someone's keeping an eye on these trains. Maybe the improvements will filter back to the 2 eventually.
(Someone should explain to you that you don't, in fact, pay for the full cost of the ride. If you wish to pay $5 for your subway ride, we're perfectly happy to not yell at you. Put the $1.50 in the turnstile when you enter the station. When you board the train, put the balance of $3.50 in a white envelope and slide it underneath the conductor's door.)
I'd say $2.50 is more like it, including capital, in New York City.
>>>...we're perfectly happy to not yell at you. <<<
I wasn't aware that you had gotten a job with the TA.
Peace,
ANDEE
Economics aside, you have a point.
I have had occasion to write letters of commendation for train crew who did a great job.
One was an L line BMT conductor, obviously old school, who took great pride in announcing every stop, and checking cars and doors to see to passenger safety and comfort. He took an elderly lady, unsteady on her feet, by the hand and saw her safely off the train. He was unflappable and I heard "Yes sir" and "yes maam" repeatedly. It was crowded and I wasn't able to approach him but he wore a conductor's cap, and I was able to get the number and use it to write a letter on his behalf (I received a reply from MTA assuring me that a commendation would be placed in his personnel jacket). Train Dude knows who he is; I understand the conductor has since retired.
i know exactly what you mean. There was a conductor on the N line one morning last summer (July, 2001) that i'll never forget. Go N Train was with me that morning and knew the voice. He was the greatest conductor I've ever had in my experience with NYCTA.
I got on at Pacific Street, Manhattan bound.
"Stand clear of the closing doors please."
Train starts moving...
"Ladies and gentlemen I apologize but I neglected to mention that the next stop on this train will be DeKalb Avenue."
This surprised me because many C/Rs won't take the time to correct their mistake.
Curtosy and a ride to work: $1.50
Later on at Rector Street:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is Rector Street. When leaving the train please watch your step as there may be a gap between the train and the ecoupage."
Ecoupage? Curtosy, a ride to work and a French lesson: $1.50
That morning I got off at Cortlandt Street/WTC.
"This is Cortlandt Street, World Trade Center. The time is now 8:30AM, on behalf of the MTA and New York City Subway, I'd like to wish all passengers a lovely day. The next stop is City Hall. Please stand clear of the doors."
Curtosy, a ride to work, a French lesson, and a conductor that made my day: Priceless.
:-D
Heh. That'd make ME show up for work. :)
In my experience most of these situations are in fact due to passengers holding the doors and not due to conductor laziness. This was obviously an exception. If the conductor had just looked, he could have seen no one overtly holding the doors. Most door holders are pretty obvious about it.
My point exactly.
Most door holders are pretty obvious about it.
I'd say its more like 50/50 on that one. Just as many times I'll deal with someone holding a door from the inside waiting for someone as with someone on the outside.
No not all the time some stand inside with the foot in the door.
"No not all the time some stand inside with the foot in the door."
I didn't say all the time, I said most. Do you disagree?
I'm surprised the entire train was taken OOS ... couldn't the problem door have simply been isolated and locked closed?
--Mark
Hey Mitch, you happened to come across a moron. Please don't come across saying 'most' conductors are rude, lazy and obnoxious. I happen to take my work seriously, and feel slightly slighted by these accusations. Again, you came across a moron. Unfortunately, these few cast a shadow on the rest of the craft. And yes, that door probably could have been cut out and the train remained in service, but like I said, you came across a moron.
I'm not upset about the train being taken out of service. I'm upset about the conductor not coming to check the door until a passenger told him it wasn't working.
Yeah, well I hate to say it but, things like this happen when it's more important to fill quotas than to hire competent help. Like I said, I happen to take pride in my work. I've been a conductor almost 16 years now. You and I should not have to deal with incompetence such as this.
Unfortunately, there are far too many TA employees who are in the wrong line of work.
Peace,
ANDEE
"things like this happen when it's more important to fill quotas than to hire competent help."
Really? It doesn't sound like the conductor was incompetent. You don't need much brain to go look to see what's the matter. He was just lazy and surly.
Are surliness and laziness a result of quota based hiring rather than management inability to weed out people with the wrong personality for the job? My experience is that surliness and laziness are not a function of ethnic group.
No you don't need much brain, but you DO need a minute amount of common sense. Unfortunately this is lacking in wide numbers these days, no matter what the profession. I've said many times over the years that it's a good thing I'm not the guy in charge because I'd have no one to run my railroad. Management certainly does have the ability to weed out the 'problem children', but more often than not it becomes a political issue so that they would rather just leave it alone.
Oh well. But the egg he has to wipe off his face probably evened the score, so I wouldn't make too much of this. He should have looked sooner...
..........??............!.....................
da' heat must B gettin' 2 some folks !!
reminds me bout' how some folkz drive on the los angeles freeways !!
everybody needs to CHILL OUT , not react to stress improperly !!
Let it go man !! It aint' worth it to get ALL WORKED UP ...!!
later chill out with a cold drink & a nap !!
......lol !!!...............!
You put it right, my man!
& THIS WAS NOT ON A REDBIRD ??? .................!!
Has anyone been on a train where the conductor made all the announcements really loud? This happened to me once when I was riding the W train from Astoria. The c/r was like yelling into the micropohone or something. He'd be like THIS IS THE W TRAIN. TIMES SQUARE IS NEXT. Maybe there was something wrong with the mike.
Have you ever been on a train when the conductor talks very softly and the announcements are very quiet? I mean if the announcements are crystal clear, but very low in volume, it means the c/r is just lazy.
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/219/nation/Amtrak_may_trim_Acela_service+.shtml
AEM7
Nice Globe Staff map. I didn't know AE stopped in Dover!
Dover....Wilmington....theyre all the same.
Said to me once: "Now...Delaware. That's somewhere in Pennsylvania, right?" Oy. :O)
That's where they make pencils.
:0)
Anybody see the Simpsons episode where they hopped on a freight train to take a vacation to Deleware? The highlights of the trip were to include a screen door factory and the warehouse where JC Penny sends all their defective merchandise. Maybe that's what the Acela stop is for.
"I think I found a way out, but it's not very pretty!"
-- David
Chicago, IL
My Acela Express today didn't stop in Dover!!! That would have been a bit out of our way though...
One consistent problem has been fluctations in the trains' electrical system, which has required Amtrak to send a technician on every Acela run to reset the electronics should trouble strike.
Oh god, its the MetroLiner all over again.
Oh god, its the MetroLiner all over again.
It is and it isn't. The Metroliner had class. The Acela has no class. The Metroliner didn't have computers on board, so most things were easy to fix. The Acela does, so if the software crashes, good luck.
AEM7
Hmm, could this be history repeating itself?
Could there be a new AEM7-type engine after the fallout from Acela has all come down?
Metroliner->HSR along NEC->Mechanically a Failure->Amtrak says 'screw it,' makes em all cab cars->We get a new Engine, the AEM7
Acela->Higher HSR along NEC->Also Mechanically a Failure-> Gunn don't like em either-> they go to the Great Coachyard in the Sky->We get new engines (not the HHP-8, that was just a rebodied Acela using sybic tech)
Can we suggest engines for amtrak? If yes, then I'd nominate the Class 101's (Not the ALP46) for amtrak's use. See if GM/EMD would build them, that way it'd be the AEM-8.
If only Gunn had been there when Amtrak was buying the Acelas!
Yesterday I got to opt. The R143's in school cars. They have the best brakes on any train in the fleet IMO. The TSS made my come in to the R143's C/R Broad in the post and then take brake. I was able the hit the 8 car mark with little effort and not having to put it to full service either. I am lucky that my class only has 6 T/O in it so we got 7 stops each. Tonight we are hoping to get two round trip on the L if were get out of the yard at 7:00pm sharp.
Robert
right handed?
Are they back to this evening School Car thing? I thought they gave it up.
No they still have evening school car. I makes sence this way they don't mess PM T/O & C/R up.
Robert
According to my resident TW/O, they brought them back about 3 weeks ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
....at laest at Concourse Yard.
Peace,
ANDEE
Question:
Why would you be entering a station at such a high rate of speed that you would need to apply the brakes in full service?
Maybe you should start braking a bit earlier to avoid having to use full service.
Slow braking does eat time on you - good operating involves (and I'm guessing it's still the same despite the composites of today) rolling two cars in, then grabbing until you release at the marker. If you brake TOO gently, you lose time at each station along the way.
Perfect example was the so-called "Blind T/O" who operated timidly and would be 30 minutes late at the terminal according to reports from back in that time here. Keeping the schedule does require a bit of aggressiveness.
The T/O's on the Q Line used to come in at 40+ and brake from the tip of the platform. Now they do that 2 cars out. And there's one who keeps 30-35 on the express. Parallel to Coast to Parallel to Coast. The worst part about that guy is that he easily takes care of the timers on the line.
I think I know who's being talked about here. I get him southbound at 3:13 PM (scheduled time) at DeKalb Avenue, which would make the trip the 2:54 PM < Q > out of 57th Street. Somehow he manages to leave DeKalb roughly on time, but he loses 2-3 minutes because he refuses to go over approximately 30 MPH. I've watched him operate; he takes off "on the post," then shuts it off and takes two points to maintain the speed, then alternates among coasting and the second and third power positions. He starts his brake application way ahead of the top of the station.
Today I rode in the middle of the train instead of in the front. The train was operated the way this guy usually does it between Seventh Avenue and Prospect Park (s-l-o-w, including coasting BEFORE reaching the timers, then crawling through them), then it was operated the way everyone ELSE does it the rest of the way. Either it wasn't the usual guy, or he had supervision riding and knew it.
This guy's the worst offender I encounter, but he's far from the only one. GT/35 means 35 MPH, not 15!!!
David
David, grab a Superintendant and a train with a crew. Have them do the posted GT 40 from Seventh Ave to Prospect Park. Let me know which signal you hit.
This past Saturday, I almost hit that homeball between the two stations, and I was doing 14 mph. i've reported it - doesn't seem to do any good. Those signals change when they want to; until I'm sure they will change as posted, when i pass the GT 40 sign, I brake down to about 25.
That homeball does act funny sometimes, not clearing until the train is almost on top of it. I've mentioned it here before. My theory is that someone is conducting Train Operator compliance tests by playing with the homeball...
David
GT35 generally means 30 MPH. Most are 5 miles under the posted speed, and they can have been slowed down to less. The speedometer could even read the 5 mile less speed, and you might have picked up speed to fast for it to pick up, and the timers penalize you (go to a much slower time which makes you almost stop and you almost hit it). Very few timers actually clear at the posted speed.
These timers are designed to clear at higher than the posted speed, as are all modern installations (I checked).
My main complaint about this particular Train Operator is that he won't go over 30 MPH or so (unless he's running very late) under ANY circumstances on ANY part of the Brighton Line. He's got 20 years in (I checked that, too), so inexperience can't be used as a crutch.
David
They might be designed to clear faster than posted, but reality doesn't care about the bleeding design. Some of the new timers on the West End do not clear AT the posted speed, never mind faster.
If they don't clear at (much less above) the posted speed, they should be banged in to Signals (whether anything will be done about it, I'm not in a position to say...). Of course, it could be one or more inaccurate speedometers.
David
Overshooting is a bad, bad thing. And having too much supervision in your face tends to make you "bashful" ... bear in mind that back in the 70's the timers were there to prevent you from being stupid as opposed to preventing you from getting there as it would seem today. Timers meant you were going downhill on or toward a curve. I remember the piece from DeKalb until sunlight and there were a few curves there you needed to be mindful of. I hear they've REALLY slowed it all down since.
In the old cars, you could coast without losing much speed (no dynamics to drag) and be doing 45+ when you hit the end of the platform. Unless it was a "fast station" (downhill) you could usually go a car or two before yanking it and meaning it. Then again, we didn't have marshmallows attached to the cylinders back then. Sounds to me as though many "T/O's" don't trust the brakes to stop them AT the marker if what you describe is true.
The TSS just wanted us to see how good the brakes are, so we would know that they would stop us if needed to do so. I will not be at max power halfway into the station, I will ajust to the speed I am going and brakes to get a smoth stop.
robert
Don't mind me ... I thought they were neat myself. Mind ya, I'm a throwback to R1/9's and 32's ... they wouldn't LET me have 42's or 44's. Those with seniority picked the jobs that featured "air conditionin'" ... heh. But yes, I was quite impressed with the 143's while I had a chance in the cab while they were in acceptance testing. Got to joyride 8101-8108 ...
I was told they are deceptively fast in the tubes picking up speed very nicely on coast. And when you hit that timer it is a soft dump.
TSS had one of the T/O lastnight keep it raped after the second timer to the city. We hit 52 at the last red, it did not change at all.
Robert
They told someone else that and they hit it out on their own. Actually the one that hit it told me that.
Honestly that is the most useless use of school car. If one of those guys were probie and the road TSS saw that they would stay red all the way to 8th ave. Yes, it is fun and cool but why teach people to operate in a way that they would bust you for on a train that would bang you in.
I think you mean rapped otherwise school car is getting nasty. Blessing the cab against its will is just wrong.
There is a single shot into Atlantic Ave southbound that has you about STOPPING before it will clear. I mean you have to be under 5mph at best.
The worst I've seen in the system (other then non-reverse blind trips) they put in at Queens Plaza.
Yow ... it was the "old" philosopy that unless you risked ripping off the sides owing to too fast a speed, timers MEANT something when you encountered them. And yeah, I remember that curve - there was a REASON for THAT timer.
That one-shot outside Atlantic Avenue (Brighton southbound) was installed as a station timer and was converted two or so years ago to a grade timer, without changing the lighted box from "15" to "S" or lunar white. I believe it still works as a station timer as well -- when the train I'm on is immediately following its leader, that timer seems to clear faster!
David
You were imprisoned on an R143?
I've heard of chain gangs and work trains but this is ridiculous.
:0)
There's worse ways to go. I *liked* the 143's ... the T bar on the side window took some getting used to but it felt NICE. If you're a rightie. :)
'Imprison' on a Japanese trainset must be better than a WW2 prison ship...you got AC and an outlet to plug your radio/TV into. Concourse??? I could bug Unca Steve...watching this CBTC/New Tech/R160 thing verrrry carefully. CI Peter
Try Not touching the brakes till the board Passess you then slam into full service Train is a smooth stop even though it does squeal.
Good idea...trainsets are programmed NOT to decellerate rapidly as to avoid jostling of passengers and the squeal of compostion tread brakes is practically unavoidable BUT a good T/O must NOT depend upon the software to apply braking properly. True that these trainsets are 'fly by wire' versus Redbird 'two hands on'...safety IS a primary concern...and 'Made in Japan' is no gaurantee of compliance. CI Peter
On Sunday the Governor of NJ helped NJT officials Unveid the newest of 12 ALP-46 locomotives currently on the property. The 46's will begin service shortly hauling up to 12 single level coaches on the NEC and NJ Coast Line. The ALP-44's will take up residence on the Hoboken Division, primarily for MidTown Direct Service.
Since some midtown direct service goes to NYP, you could still see the 44's in Manhattan.
That's an interesting looking locomotive.
Where did you see a photo of it?
Look at nyrail.org's website.
Here's a telephoto shot of the four ALP-46's parked at Meadowlands on July 15.
The ALP-44's are ALREADY used exclusively on Midtown Directs, for which they are badly suited. ALP-46's will partially take over starting with the two 9 car consists on that route.
Not exactly! I rffide the Northeast Corridor at least twice daily and I see many ALP-44 traions on the NECL.
Perhaps what you meant to say is "Midtown Direct uses ALP-44 due to the power change."
6+ of the locomotives were already unveiled at the MMC awhile ago including others on the NJCL.
While the following NY Times story does not dealdirectly with transit, it does deal with the nature of the WTC rebuild, which will affect the reconstruction of lower Manghattan and affect transit planning. So indirectly still on-topic..
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/07/nyregion/07SILV.html
The following is the official August 2002 update on the Silver Line
from the website:
http;//www.allaboutsilverline.com
August 2002
Silver Line – Phase II August 2002 Update
Underpinning of the Russia Wharf & Graphic Arts buildings is
complete. Mass ground freezing continues below the Russia Wharf and
Graphic Arts
buildings. New Austrian Tunneling Method (NATM) tunneling is
anticipated to start late summer 2002. The construction of the
Immersed Tube Tunnels
(ITT's) is near completion. Float out of the ITT's is expected to
occur in late fall 2002.
Layout and framework for Station finishes have commenced at
Courthouse Station. The contractor has one more station roof section
to pour. The contractor
will begin backfilling and final utility relocation along Seaport
Boulevard between Boston Wharf Road and Thompson Way.
In addition, the construction to progress on schedule.
Good news.
How do you pronounce your name? Is it WA-MA-TA-GO, or is it W-M-A-T-A-GO, or WA-MA-TA-GA-MO-A?
AEM7
WMATA is Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. GM is General Managers. OAGH is his initials.
That's what I can only say.
Chaohwa
Spreak Engrish... it is whata ma goa hah. hah hah hah. Old indigenous aboriginal peoples term for 'Where is this train taking me?' 'In the hole, in the hole, BIE tripcock, BIE tripcock...speak English' (then dump the trainset.) 'Yo C/R, whata ma goa hah?...This is a number five train to Wakefield and 241st Street.' CI Peter
heh
He never answered my Q either.
I always knew it was short for WMATA GM Oren, but I still wanted to know how he would pronounce it.
So far, I have been saying it like WA-MA-TA-GO.
AEM7
HE IS A GOOD KID AND ON HIS WAY TO A GOOD CAREER IN ANYTHING HE DOES.
So I stayed in the city for the weekend to go on 'The Last Redbird Excursion.' Me, take MY trainsets on a Saturday? I caught an empty bus on Lex...looked at the passenger in the back...and said, 'You are
What a mah goah! I'm OnTheJuice.' CI peter
Gee, I thought it was old Indian name.
Urdu for 'Which way is up?'
It's a good job that WMATA isn't called the "Washington Area Transit Association, Metropolitan District" (WATAMD). I don't know if WMATA comes out to mean anything in any language, but WATAMD comes out to mean something really rude in Chinese. Chaw-Hwa Chen can tell us what it means. heh.
Clue: WATAMD is pronounced Wah-Ta-Ma-D!
One of my buddies is Chinese/Cuban which has a very interesting one hundred year old origin...there are over one hundred thousand Chinese decendents in Cuba today with an interesting and diverse culture. If you see a lunchcounter/restaraunt withe the sign 'China Y Criolla,' it's probably of that origin. Hard to remember foreign stuff...someone pegged me with the Chinese wordage for 'troubles.' WHat a mah D...got to remember that. CI Peter
That's like, "what the hell," or "damn."
Chaohwa
I pronounce it (in my mind) as "wah-MAHT-ta-go-MAHG". I understand that it is an acronym, since I queried the owner of the handle some time ago. In case you're wondering, my last name is pronounced "FELL-show". Thanks for asking. My late favorite aunt also called me "Jorge" (HOR-hay). She was fascinated by Mexican culture.
Chao-Hwa got the acronym right. WMATA is pronounced wuh-MAH-tah and then the rest is just the letters, G M O A G H. At least that is how I do it. It seems everyone else on here has their own way of pronouncing it (or attempting to do so). You can just refer to me as Oren, as far as I know, no one else on this board has that name.
And I am not the general manager of WMATA but you never know, it could happen :-)
Oren,
The only other Oren that I'm aware of was the character Oren Hillyer on the soap "The Edge of Night". (He was not a nice person.) The program is no longer on the air.
Most people running transit systems today are white-bread suburbanites with MBAs who never use public transit. Their "ideas" are all apparently all tired concepts traded at industry conferences.
If your future is in transit, I wish you the best; since your perspective is sorely needed.
Most people running transit systems today are white-bread suburbanites with MBAs who never use public transit. Their "ideas" are all apparently all tired concepts traded at industry conferences.
Be careful. There are lots of MBA's out there who ride public transit.
But I know what you mean. Some MBA's don't have a clue.
WMATA GM is a political position. Remember what David Gunn said about it? I seem to remember that's the only position he "quit" from in his life, because he was peed off with the political meddling.
I wouldn't want to be WMATA GM. I wouldn't last a minute.
Also, using rank-and-file employees as top management isn't always the answer. There is one major transit authority in the Northeast which currently has a lot of "rank-and-file" perspectives amongst the senior management. The aforementioned authority has its problems.
AEM7
I don't know if GM is actually a position I would want but it works for now. After all, it is only a message board handle, I can change it if I get a job title with them or some other agency.
What's the AG?
Middle initials.
I know. I'm asking what they are. (Don't answer if you don't want to.) Incidentally, I know someone who shares your first and last names, but I don't think he has a double middle.
OOOHHHHHH!!!!!! (comments reserved)
I wasn't talking about the MTA
I have Oren as a middle name.
Fun fact: "oren" means "unclean" in Swedish. (And my initials come out "tok," which means "fool" in Swedish.) :-(
I don't think my parents were planning on me moving to Sweden. :-)
Mvh Tim
lol.....unclean fool.....good thing no relocation to Sweden is planned......
Tim lives in Sweden, I'm afraid.
Oh yes, I read that wrong in his post.
Actually, I didn't mention it in my post. I guess I tend to assume everybody knows it (I mention Stockholm pretty often in my posts). Oh well. :-)
Mvh Tim
When people ask me what it means, I certainly will not tell them that!
It does have an additional meaning in another language though.
Does it mean "chocolate cookies with cream filling" in Midwest American English?
I wonder if anyone actually knows, that was not it, sorry.
Like many subway lines, does it have branches?
LOL, I think I can credit you with getting it right.
GM of WMATA? You have the interest, attention, skill and will finish your education. I wondered about District Superintendents...asked a buddy who it turns out is married to a DS sister...the DS is only thirty two years of age! If the train work really has you and you start young......most of TAs newest employees are fourty something because they wanted outside experience technical help....you can move up and become GM in...twenty years. CI Peter
I said I had it, it is some time away and things could change...
I have noticed that during the reconstruction of the Aurburndale station that is looks like they are making it longer than it was before. Is this true?....are they making it longer to fit the normal 10 cars?
Auburndale Station is being rebuilt to fit 12-car trains, and to be entirely ADA compliant. The project includes elevators, new tactile strips for the platform, better lighting and, I believe, a new waiting room (not sure about that last one).
It should be ready in 2003. When finished, only two stations on the PW branch will not be ADA-compliant. Another renovation is set for Broadway station, which is compliant but needs more work.
There are two upcoming GO's on the F:
1) Trains run between 179 and Hoyt on the A and between Hoyt/G and Coney Is.
Question: How?! Will the F stop at the the Bergen St northbound BOTH directions or run light to Bedford Av and turn back?
On the north portion, is the F going to wrong rail back to Jay St on the A, or relay east of Hoyt?
And one last question, are they repairing the interlocking system at Bergen St during this GO? I hope so...
2) No uptown trains between 2av and Bergen St
Question: How are they gonna do this? Some trains terminate at 2av? while all uptown trains from Bklyn run via the G to Qns?
it is a mind boggler isnt it? i get the funny feeling that its gonna get cancelled.but ya never know,im still gonna go and see for myself what happens,its very,VERY interesting
I don't know if the switches are in place to do this, but the GO seems pretty straight foreward. Hoyt bound F goes from Jay to Hoyt the same way the A does. Coney Isle bound F goes from Hoyt to Bergen the same way the G does. The question, in this case, would be, which platform at Hoyt do they use. Would be pretty interesting if they put the F on one of the Court St. tracks.
Why would they? South section on the G plat, North Section on the A plat.
remember you got the C train running too.i say there's an 85% chance of it getting cancelled.
of course the other 15% goes to it actually happening.
No, the first GO "IND" asked about is only running late nights, and the C doesn't run then.
The second GO specifically depends on the C to get passengers from Hoyt up the F line into Manhattan.
Warning: this is my own conjecture based on the track maps -- if anyone knows for sure, please confirm, correct, or clarify.
The first GO:
F trains operate in two segments. The south segment runs from Stillwell to Bergen as usual, then as a G to Hoyt. Discharge at Hoyt, run light to the middle track at Bedford-Nostrand, change ends, repeat in reverse. The north segment runs from 179th to Jay as usual, then as an A to Hoyt. Discharge at Hoyt. Relay on the middle track south of Lafayette and repeat in reverse. The two segments must operated by separate trains; there's no track connection between the A/C and the G at Hoyt.
The second GO:
F trains operate in two overlapping segments. The north segment runs between 179th and 2nd Avenue as usual. The south segment runs SB from 179th to Stillwell exactly as usual, but NB it runs via the G from Bergen to north of Queens Plaza. (SB passengers between 179th and 2nd Avenue and NB passengers between Roosevelt and 179th can use either segment.) The NB C runs via the F (switching at Jay and W4) and the G terminates on the SB track at Court Square.
The only section of track this second GO clears is the NB connection from Bergen (both levels) to Jay -- in particular, the switch where the ramp from the upper level to the lower level (used normally by the F) merges with the express track. It's a very good guess that the interlocking there is the work area.
I have to recheck the second GO but I think it is wrong, think cheap TA.
I don't see any other options. The advisory explicitly states that service is normal from 2nd Avenue to 179th and from 179th to Stillwell. Unless the 2nd Avenue trains come out of a black hole, they have to go there SB and change ends. (It's possible they run light SB -- is that what you mean?) It also says the F is running on the G from Bergen to QP. What do you think it is?
I don't see the second segment.
I think s/b normal, n/b via the G (with a cross platform C connect at Hoyt for the bypassed stations. Were you saying that? Somehow I thought you were implying the line being split (Vs detouring) like it is during the weeknight GO.
I would also add there is the continued conspiracy to wean QB off of having two locals on weekends.
The advisory claims that there's regular NB F service from 2nd Avenue to Queens.
It also says to transfer at Bway-Laf.
Methinks TA too cheap and maybe the D to 2nd will will the gap in 6th ave service.
Turning F's at QP is yuckie, extending them to 179 would be double coverage in Queens if NB is also out of 2nd Ave.
Someone goofed is more likely.
It also says to transfer at Bway-Laf.
From the C (rerouted via Rutgers). The only guaranteed cross-platform transfer is at B-L.
Methinks TA too cheap and maybe the D to 2nd will will the gap in 6th ave service.
Then the advisory wouldn't state explicitly that "Queens-bound trains run normal from 2 Av to 179 St."
Turning F's at QP is yuckie, extending them to 179 would be double coverage in Queens if NB is also out of 2nd Ave.
Assuming each F segment operates at regular F headways. I wouldn't assume that.
Someone goofed is more likely.
I don't see where a goof is likely.
Second GO: "F trains operate in two overlapping segments."
I think this is what they mean (and probably also what you are saying):
- Half of Fs run the regular 179th to 2nd Ave portion of the F route and turn around at 2nd Ave.
- Half of Fs go from 179th to CI the usual way, then return via the G tracks.
So service from 179th to CI is "normal" but the southern half of it is only at half the usual frequency.
Exactly. Whether the result will be doubled headways in Brooklyn, halved headways in Queens, or something in between remains to be seen.
"Whether the result will be doubled headways in Brooklyn, halved headways in Queens, or something in between remains to be seen."
Here I would agree with the postings that suggest the TA is cheap when it comes to GOs. I don't remember ever seeing a GO that INCREASED service on a given lettered or numbered route (I'm sure there are cases, but I think they are few and far between). I've seen lots of GOs where the service on the modified route was miserably infrequent, much more so than could be justified by any complicated switching patterns.
So I would quite confidently predict normal frequency in Queens and half frequency in Brooklyn (but I'm not putting money on it).
Not true at all. The frequent IRT GO's that send the 5 to Times Square send it there all night long, when it normally terminates in the Bronx at night, and the 4 runs through to New Lots all day to make up for the 1. When the 7 terminates at Queensboro Plaza, the shuttle runs overnight. When W service is suspended, the (round-robin) N runs through to Stillwell. Those are all service increases on lettered and numbered routes.
Here's my guess: the south segment of the F (the one that goes to Stillwell) will run at regular headways. The north segment will be infrequent -- perhaps even at 20-minute headways. It might run light SB. G service may be reduced; it's not needed at all NB except to pick up people boarding at Smith-9th, Carroll, and Bergen who don't know to take the F.
"Those are all service increases on lettered and numbered routes."
I wasn't very specific. I meant when a service that ordinarily runs on a weekend is subject to a GO, I have never personally seen it run MORE frequently than normal weekend service. Your examples are of services extended to cover for services that do not exist because of the GO.
For example, when the 60th St tunnel was closed, and the R ran via 63rd St and the N was abolished in Manhattan, you'd think they'd run MORE Rs to make up for the lack of Ns in Manhattan, but they didn't.
Wonder how Sunday's Nostalgia Train will fit in with this GO, since it usually uses the F line to get to Coney Island.
I guess I'll find out Sunday :)
--Mark
It can still get there. All the usual tracks are open SB. If it comes back via Culver (it didn't last time), it'll have to go up the G to Queens.
Very good! All these other self proclaimed 'experts' and not a clue.
North Section regular s/b to York flip over to the A, discharge Hoyt relay C-W go to Jay then flip back to the F.
South Section, normal to Bergen then to Hoyt as a G, relay B-N then back South.
BTW, this GO has been running since last week.
Aw hell ... you're no fun. I was waiting to see how it would get routed to 76 street. :)
BTW I was down there last week.
The planned 76 st station must have been DEEP, those tracks seem to be well under the Grant Station. Is there a big shift in elevation up top?
And there are the remains of a full homesignal down there in the middle of a layup track I think 3 track. So there is no reason to have it there unless something was planned, or that was for the benefit of the work trains.
Heh. STIR that pot. I'm sure if they could block up a secret tunnel, somehow the signal department would have confiscated the head and put it in the 4th avenue rebuild a long time ago. But as to the geography of the area, I have no idea. Hang my head in shame, I was only out there when I was a kid and even then mainly to do the Rockaway ride. Never worked there myself.
That IS a mighty strange track arrangement though at Pitkin ... http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/smbklyn1.gif ... maybe there's some LoV's out there. Back when I worked the system, one of the rumors that rivalled 76th Street is that somewhere in the system, some crazy old car inspector laid up ten LoV's that were never found. Some guessed that they were hidden away when unused tracks at Queens Plaza got bricked up, others said "out there by the Pitkin shop" ... wouldn't it be a hoot?
Kids, don't try this at home. :)
The Belmonts? hidden private station in Manhattan was another.
BTW not that anyone seems to care but that track map is wrong. The spurs to nowhere from the yard do not exist but that spoils the fun. It is just flat wall there.
Heh. Why not? There was this ancient car inspector, Tony (they called him "Gabby" and warned us eggs not to get into a conversation with the guy or you'd ABD two round trips or worse by not showing up) down at CI who SWORE he had been out there (at Queens Plaza) and SAW the laid up "mystery train" ... Tony was one of those guys who greased up the rags for the standards and was proud of his ability to prevent hot boxes by packing them "tighter than a ... (umm, can't say it here)" The guy was a genuine hoot - I'd spend my layovers watching him tell everyone else how to rebuild the trucks and clean out the gearboxes "right." Heh. But he SWORE those ten LoV's were out there and he had visited them many times before they got "sealed up." Needless to say, after so much construction, they never turned up but he SWORE they existed.
And as to the track map, like I said, I have ZERO recollections of that stretch. But perhaps that's what got everyone worked up in the first place. Peter Dougherty ... COME ON DOWN! Lucy, you got some 'splaining to do. Heh. Just busting ...
The rumor was also that there is an old 1800's steam engine behind a sealed up wall in the abandoned Atlantic Ave tunnel in Brooklyn. I don't know if the people giving the tour I took of the tunnel were being sarcastically funny or if they really believed it was there. hey anything is possible. They were talking of breaking through the wasll, and that was about 10 years ago that I took the tour, I don't know if they ever broke through the wall or not.
Once again ... Bill Murray, Ghostbusters II ... there's only one way to get a story, and it involves digging up da fax ... only question remaining, "who is that man with the big brass clangers willing to do time for a story?" (kids, do NOT try this at home.) Heh.
There was in fact a steam locomotive buried in the old tunnel under Atlantic Ave. I read that they were going to try to get it out, but from what I learned, they take the risk of the street collapsing over the tunnel if the loco was removed. In a way, the loco holds up Atlantic Ave for support.
So soes that mean they broke through the wall at the end of the tunnel?
I know of one poster to this board that believes there is
a LIRR locomotive sealed up in the tunnel. The story is that
they were in such a hurry to seal it up that they didn't have
time to remove the engine, or alternatively that it was an
old engine anyway and they wanted to scrap it. Considering
the vintage of that tunnel, if the engine were down there and
were to be recovered, it would be the railway preservation find
of all time. However, most railway historians consider its
existence to be an urban legend.
It may be only an urban legend, but many people also did not believe that there was even a tunnel under Atlantic Avenue. The tunnel exists; perhaps something is sealed beyond the wall.
And black helicopters are flying over your head, stealing your brain waves...LOL!
Perhaps we should await the word of the Expert regarding the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel - Bob Diamond.
He found it, revealed it to the railfan community and the world. The long-term BTA plans include running streetcars through it. If anything strange is sealed behind the brickwork, Bob certainly knows of it.
The two stub trackways are there. The wall is fairly recent
and many people reportedly remember those tracks being used for
layups in the 60s. The original IND routing was to continue
as a subway and not swing north picking up the old BMT elevated
structure as ultimately happened. Those two tracks coming out
of Pitkin would have continued swinging east until they came
out between 1&3 and between 2&4, forming the typical IND
crotch layout, symmetrical with what is at Euclid.
maybe there's some LoV's out there. Back when I worked the system, one of the rumors that rivalled 76th Street is that somewhere in the system, some crazy old car inspector laid up ten LoV's that were never found. Some guessed that they were hidden away when unused tracks at Queens Plaza got bricked up, others said "out there by the Pitkin shop" ... wouldn't it be a hoot?
Ahhh Haaa, so now we know why the "76th Street" station is kept such a secret on the scale of the Roswell incident!....The old station is there fully tiled and signed, and it was filled with LoV's before being walled up!!!!!
< /rumor start >
There's only ONE way to be sure ... and it's ILLEGAL ... think Ghostbusters II, Con Ed crew, Bill Murray flipping off da cops. :)
Ah, just walk around with a clipboard and act like you know what you are doing......Well, that may have been easier on Sept 10th.....
That'd be a bit of a challenge ... gott aopen up da street and put up barricados and all that stuff. Ropes, big trucks. A clipboard just wouldn't do it. :)
Well, as long as there is one guy there with the clipboard (or maybe two), it just may work......
AND a biggie drill. :)
Or a battering ram to bust through the tunnel bulkhead.
some crazy old car inspector laid up ten LoV's that were never found.
Actually there was a rumor of some years' currency, something like this:
A motorman on the original IND laid up a train of R1/9s on a tunnel stub track because of the unavailbility of a proper lineup in the yard, "temporarily."
The motorman was in a hurry because he was retiring and he neglected to tell anyone where he put the train.
The train was around a curve back in that there tunnel and, after a while, the tunnel was sealed up when it was "decommissioned" for failure to build the Second System, which it was to be part of, and sealed off (a la, 76th St.?). With the R-1/9s in it.
Never mind the obvious stuff, that even the BofT would, at some point have said "Hmm.. he have a car 603 and a car 605. Number theory suggests we should have a car 604. Anyone seen it?"
This story was around for a while, enough so that it was printed and debunked in (I think) a very old issue of ERA NYD Bulletin.
Maybe someone knows where the story is and cleanup my fuzzily recalled version.
But it is very appropriate to an urban myth for that same phanton train to be showing up in different versions as an R9 or a LoV, and the "loser" as a retiring motorman, or a clueless inspector.
You know, even now, I've hard rumors that entire fleets of Redbirds are lying in the ocean, result of a car cleaning frenzy gone terriblly wrong.
You know, even now, I've hard rumors that entire fleets of Redbirds are lying in the ocean, result of a car cleaning frenzy gone terriblly wrong.
Of course, having gotten there through the vortex to the ocean through the 76th Street station that comes out off the Carolina coast.
In seriousness though, in the olden days it may have been possible to "loose" a train in the system somewhere. Hey you never know, it's a big world underground.
In seriousness though, in the olden days it may have been possible to "loose" a train in the system somewhere.
Wouldn't I love to think so. I could enjoy the thrill of wondering if a BU of a no longer existing class got "stuck" inside one of the buildings along the Sea Beach when the sidings were taken out and the access doors walled over.
But the old systems were quite as compulsive about keeping track of their equipment then as now, if not more so.
Not always.....
The United Railways (Baltimore) actually lost a car in the 1910's. In 1919 car 13 (which should have been assigned to the Druid Hill Avenue line [the 0 line]) was discovered in the very back of the Owings Mills car house in a damaged condition. Surviving pictures show the car with the it's dasher askew and the headlight smashed. Nobody at Owings Mills knew anything about it, and neither Druid Hill Avenue Carhouse or Retreat St. Yard , where the car was supposed to be kept, knew anything about it either.
Since the car was a Brill 18 foot box from 1897, it was quietly scrapped without further comment.
Nothing was lost again, as far as anyone knew.
Of course, having gotten there through the vortex to the ocean through the 76th Street station that comes out off the Carolina coast.
Sounds like something out of the twisted subfan movie I came up with last week.
In seriousness though, in the olden days it may have been possible to "loose" a train in the system somewhere.
Wasn't the lost A train meant to be at the Washington Heights end of the line?
no it was an AA at 168th yards in 1933s... originally in '32 there was the A and AA, then in 1933 the concourse line opened there was the A,C, and the CC, (A to washington heights, C to Concourse, 168th yard was not used) In 1940 when the 6th ave line opened, the AA returned(with the BB) and 168th yard was used as a turnaround again, so from when concourse opened to when 6th ave opened, the set of R1-4s was left there
I heard they lost an entire consist of Low-V's in the Dyre Ave tunnel. But I heard this CI was trying to save them from the scrapper. The supervisor never found them. I later read these cars are used for the "Museum" specials.
>> ...may have been possible to "loose" a train <<
...or even "lose" a train.
Heh. The guy SWORE they existed and I remember hearing that the PROFF was that there WAS a series of cars missing from the roster. But do I believe? For the right price I could. :)
There is some truth to the Lo-V story. The 5-car train that
ultimately became the Diamond Jubilee museum train was stashed
by an employee. I can't remember the location. Allegedly
another employee was looking all over the system for these missing
cars when it dawned on him where they must be. Someone in his
office friendly to the preservation movement tipped off the
stasher that the hunter was coming down and he got the cars moved
out of there. Ultimately the folks involved convinced the TA
to create a museum fleet and the Lo-Vs were saved.
THAT'S the story I heard now that you mention it. So it WAS true? I remember also some story about one of them being copper-skinned, brass, something gold colored. It was spotted on one of the end of the run fantrips on the third avenue el or so I'm told ...
So is this another joke, or IS THERE REALY A STATION AT 76th Street?
"So is this another joke, or IS THERE REALY A STATION AT 76th Street?"
It's a joke. There are always surface signs of a tunnel underneath a street (gratings, hatches, etc.). If there were any of those on Pitkin Ave. it would have been reported long ago.
All we know for sure is that there was a hole of sorts there that was bricked up. Whether it "went" anywhere is the kind of thing that only Scully and Muldaur can explain. :)
By the way, some wisenheimer sent me this ... damned near fell out of my chair. (THANKS!) and thought everyone else would get a kick out of it too. I'm surprised it wasn't posted here already (or did I miss it?)
From: dev-null@no-id.com
Subject: Press Release #25
Press Release August 7 , 2002
Tom Kelly IMMEDIATE #25
(212) 878-7440
MTA NYC TRANSIT TO RE-OPEN ABANDONED STATION
MTA NYC Transit will soon commence an in-house project to unblock and
restore a long-abandoned subway station in Queens. The station is located near
Pitkin Avenue & 76th Street. It was constructed, but never used, as part of the
aborted IND expansion into Queens in the 1930s.
The station will be partially rebuilt and will serve as an additional layup facility for
the A and C lines. It will not be accessible to the public. Negotiations with property
owners above the tunnel and station structures will give MTA NYC Transit the
opportunity to activate this facility. The station was used briefly in 1949 but was
never officially opened to the public.
Two property owners in the affected area will be compensated by MTA NYC Transit for
the temporary excavation required to restore one on-street emergency access stairway.
MTA NYC Transit has no plans to use this station for revenue passenger service.
###
Love it! :)
Did the "From: dev-null@no-id.com" give it away?
If folks want to keep their involvement anonymous, that's fine by me. I make my living helping people do that if they wanna. But if someone wants to step up to the plate and take credit, that's OK too. I STILL enjoyed it no matter where it came from. :)
>>There is some truth to the Lo-V story. The 5-car train that ultimately became the Diamond Jubilee museum train was stashed by an employee. I can't remember the location.<<
I know that employee who stashed away those Low-V's. They were squirreled away for the reason of becoming a museum train. The train was hiding on the express track in the tunnel on the Dyre Ave line.
>> Allegedly, another employee was looking all over the system for these missing cars when it dawned on him where they must be.<<
That's because those Low-V's were hunted down to be scrapped.
>> Someone in his office friendly to the preservation movement tipped off the stasher that the hunter was coming down and he got the cars moved out of there. Ultimately the folks involved convinced the TA to create a museum fleet and the Lo-Vs were saved.<<
When he was tipped off, the employee sent some guys up there to confiscate the cars and send them off the scrapper. By the time they got there, the Low-V's were gone and were hidden somewhere else in the system. Had the preservationist not been tipped off, not only would there be no museum Low-V's, but no Low-V in Branford's collection. Talk about timing !
This is not railfan folklore or rumor, it really happened !
Bill "Newkirk"
Truly amazing. Where did they hide them after they moved them from the Dyre tunnel?
Hey Bill and Jeff,
Are we creating new urban rumors to amuse the oldsters and confound the young pups?
The museum idea was around and being actively promoted, prominently inside the TA by Don Harold loooonnng before the Diamond Jubilee (1979).
Lo-Vs were rehabbed for show-and-tell along with BMT Standards 2390-2392 and Q-type 1622 for the 1965 "Transit Day" at the World's Fair fourteen years before the Diamond Jubilee, as memorialized in an article in The Third Rail for Summer 1966.
Lo-Vs remained in passenger service on the Third Avenue el for another three years or so after that 1965 event.
Don is the one who told me the story.
Argh, posted in the place again.
************************
Ah, that sounds like one I heard at Don's knee many years ago. Or was he on my knee? No difference! :)
But I think the time references may have been warped. The IRT Slow-V Shuttle (and original telling of the tale) would have been long before the Diamond Jubilee.
Sorry Paul, I guess I was unclear about dates in my relating the
story. I see the confusion. What I meant to say is that the same
train that _ultimately_ was used in 1979 was the one that was saved
ca 1964.
That sounds more in sync. Thanks for the update, Jeff.
Ah, that sounds like one I heard at Don's knee many years ago. Or was he on my knee? No difference! :)
But I think the time references may have been warped. The IRT Slow-V Shuttle (and original telling of the tale) would have been long before the Diamond Jubilee.
If only I had known about that Transit Day. IIRC it was on July 22, 1965. We were visiting New York and took the Circle Line around Manhattan that day. Took an N from Brooklyn to Manhattan for the second day in a row; was captivated by the shiny new R-32s.
Of course, I knew nothing about the Triplexes, either. We didn't see them even though we rode exclusively on the BMT. We left for home the following day, which coincidentally was their final day of service.
Read about Transit Day.
Maybe Randy Kennedy should do an investigative piece on whether it exists or not.
If it was not so hot I would have gone walking. Maybe if I am down there again and I spring for the new Surefire flashlight, 'the Dominator'.
There is a serious problem with aggressive rats down there. They are no doubt emboldened from years of eating Adams Cherry gum from the abandoned newsstand at 76th.
They are no doubt emboldened from years of eating Adams Cherry gum from the abandoned newsstand at 76th.
Or maybe the newsstand operator. Who knows what got sealed up under there with the R1/9 train and the R13 train, the only City sponsored experimental train using MUDC gates and PCC technology. But at least we know why the R13 was sealed up--it was the only way to get rid of a significant embarassemnt.
Of course, another embarassment, the 5000 series Brooklyn Mack buses, were designed to use GM parts, in effort to "telegraph" the contract to General Motors. Mack won the contract and GM sold them the parts at a loss. But those buses actually ran, instead of being sealed up.
If you railfan, you would be better off doing it on the weekdays because there are more lines that you can ride on, plus you also get express service in the Bronx and the headways are shorter. Plus rush hour is the best time to railfan, because you can ride lines like the <5>, <6>, <7>, (9), and (Z) trains and experience all types of service patterns.
No, cause I don't like skipping stops. I want to stay at railfan window and railfan for long time. I like railfanning at redbird window. Why don't R142's have a railfan window? it looks funny when you look through it. I hate R142's.
Don't mind me.... Its just the usual useless blather.
I'll trade length of ride for speed of ride ANY day! And that includes redbirds! I love going fast and looking out the railfan window.
The <6> rarely speeds... ( grumbles) DAMN THE TIMERS!! Racing between Huntspoint and Parkchester while gettin cold air in the face on an R142A is the ultimate thrill.
I took the 6 "express" yesterday, note the quotes.
Rush hours are good but they only last so long and I am not one to get up in time for the AM rush.
Right. That's why I spent an hour and a half up at E 180 St this evening to maximize my photography potential. It is good to have a job that's lets you get out at 5pm. I also got to ride the <5> for the first time. It is a nice ride, except for those stupid barricades they have between the express and local tracks now.
Sometimes WPR riders will have 2 choices of a train to take at the same time. I saw a (3) and a <5> heading to E 180 Street at the same time once.
But weekends have loads and loads of GO's, which means unusual routings (and photo ops) up the wazoo. When was the last time you stood at the railfan window of an R-32 signed as an N running up the Brighton express track past Ocean Parkway? (I didn't even know the Brighton express south of Brighton Beach was revenue trackage until that weekend!) And when else can you make yourself genuinely useful by helping both tourists and native New Yorkers find their way around, since nobody else bothered to read the service notices?
Don't get me wrong, rush hour railfanning has its benefits, especially if you're waiting for an R-38 A train to Far Rockaway. But as long as you're patient, all the interesting stuff happens at night and on weekends.
Right now riding weekdays is especially relevant if you are trying to catch a ride on the R-143, sinc ei believe the GO on the L is still in effect on weekends. There might be some limited R143 weekend service with the GO, but it's my understanding that it doesn't run the whole route, and the automated announcements are not used. -Nick
Oh, wait, y'all already know what days and where and when and why, otherwise you wouldn't be posting on this in the first place. But thanks for reminding us all about weekday trains that go to Brooklyn.
I observed an R-33 Train running lite southbound this evening, destination unknown.
It consisted of 8806-07, 8822-23, 8872-73, 8960-61, and 9086-87. If anybody spots this train at Concourse, then it'll most likely be heading to the Reef....
Also, there are at least two trains of R-26s/28s/29s still running. One of those sets ran on the 2 today.
Lastly, Cars 9074-75 are alive and well, at least for the time being. Caught it on the 5 this afternoon.
-Stef
Okay, here's a case of a huge screw up, in my opinion. But I want to hear what you think after reading this case:
Since the opening of the Hong Kong subway system, there has been only ONE tunnel crossing Victoria Harbour, going from the tourist mecca at Tsim Sha Tsui on Kowloon to the Admiralty district on the Island. Used by the TSUEN WAN LINE, this was the only way to cross the harbour up until 1989. The KWUN TONG LINE, terminating at Yau Ma Tei, was forced to transfer its passengers at the interchange stations at Prince Edward and Mong Kok.
In 1989, the Eastern Harbour Tunnel was opened, linking the Kwun Tong district in far Eastern Kowloon to Quarry Bay on the east end of the Island. Late last year, an extension from Quarry Bay was opened on the Kwun Tong Line, one full kilometer to North Point. For 13 years, this has been a reliable way for far Eastern Kowloon residents in districts such as Choi Hung, Kowloon Bay, Ngau Tau Kok, Kwun Tong and Lam Tin even Tseung Kwan O (via transfers from buses or minibuses) to head to work and school on the island.
Last week, this all came crashing down with the opening of the new TSEUNG KWAN O LINE. The new line will start in North Point, use the Kwun Tong Line's old Eastern Harbour Crossing, and head into Tseung Kwan O to terminate in the neighbourhood of Po Lam. On the other hand, the Kwun Tong Line, instead of terminating at North Point, is now diverted to a new terminal at Tiu Keng Leng. Now, a single seat ride across the harbour from Choi Hung to North Point now requires an extra 4-minute train transfer at Yau Tong Station, where Tsueng Kwan O Line trains take them the rest of the way.
And on top of this, equipment transfers has taken 13 refurbished ALSTOM EMUs from the Kwun Tong Line depot at Kowloon Bay, and transferred them over to the Tseung Kwan O Line, and replaced them with the problem-plagued "K-Train", the name given to the new trains built by KOROS (Korean Rolling Stock Company), in the MTR's dedication to purchasing Asian rolling stock. These new trains have broken down like no tomorrow, and I believe one has even caught fire recently during revenue service.
Now, the question to you is, what do you make of this whole matter? And if so, any suggestions? Any will be appreciated.
-J!
If I'm reading the on-line route map correctly, it should be a cross-platform transfer at Yau Tong to continue on to Hong Kong Island. Is that inaccurate? I remember when I visited Hong Kong, I found that the transfers were designed so intelligently, and the trains ran on such frequent headways, that transferring added very little time and effort to a journey. (Contrast with NYC, where a transfer between different lines can turn into a very time-consuming affair, navigating stairwells, corridors, other platforms, etc., ending with a 10-minute wait for the other train.)
This new routing does seem to turn the Kwun Tong line into something of an orphan, requiring a transfer to get across the harbor. Is there a significantly different level of political influence between the areas served by the two lines? Is the government trying to encourage development along the Tseung Kwan O line specifically? Do any plans for future subway expansion projects play into this decision?
Never been oughta NYC Chinatown BUT: before 1999 Surrender, trainsets from PDRC had to stop at the end of 'New Territories' and did 'inspected/authorised' passengers have to walk to another trainset? I still remember the 'Hong Kong swimmers.' This adjustment of mass trainsit is defintely discriminatory...Hong Kong is the 'City of Gold' for PDRC and THEY don't want an invasion of lower classes. Sheng Zou Economic Development Zone is two hundred fifty square miles of fenced in military patrolled Heaven. If anyone has a misunderstanding of my posting, they can go to the library and research mass transit of post war Berlin. What China is doing is to control the flow of lower classes...new superhighways will only be driven upon by those 'capatalist revisionists' that can afford to won a car and do contribute economic wealth. Mass transit is the same...transport the 'proletariot' whose work contrubutes to the wealth of the State. Too bad USA doen't manufacture subway cars anymore. CI Peter
Um, this has nothing to do with the border. You're mistaking yourself with the KCRC East Rail. Please visit http://www.mtrcorp.com to get more information.
If you enter/exit the 59 St - Columbus Circle station from the southern end at 57 St you may see me today during the morning and evening rush hours. I'll be wearing a transit related cap.
And be doing what?
I entered and exited 59/CC twice today, but, alas, I was on a train.
Peace,
ANDEE
Beat ya! I entered and exited 59/CC TEN times today on a train.
You should have been there yesterday. I worked the platform at 59th St-CC on the southbound on my RDO.
I saw a picture of a MN Genesis locomotive with the original NH livery, so I assume that one is owned by CDOT. There is some controversy about their cosmetic styling, but I thought she looked great in the NH livery. Does anyone else have an opinion about this new look?
Yes off the 31 gennies in Metro-North Service those 4 belonging to ConnDot were the only ones getting a nice final coat of paint.
the other 27 are still in semi primer paint :-)))
A nice NYC inspired paintscheme would be nice.
yea i think those Genesis with NH livery look great! i see them all the time on the Harlem and New Haven lines. they have also been seen by my new co workers at POUGHKEEPSIE. oh and btw subtalkers, I WILL BE STARTING METRO NORTH FROM 8/19/02!!!!!
SPECIAL THANKS TO
TREVOR LOGAN AND TRANSITALK STAFF
CLAYTON PARKER
WMATAGMOAH
I was told (but never saw it) that there is a Genesis with NY Central livery as well.
Is there a picture online? If so, what is the URL?
Mark
Yes
Looks like ass, but with a bit of tinkering it could look pretty good.
AEM7
Nice drawing. How would this loco look with an NJ Transit Scheme look?
http://www.katousa.com/customer-photo-gallery/index.html will get you to a photo of an N-scale model of one that I did.....
Four of 'em, 228-231 were done in the NH "McGinnis" colors.
I even have an N-scale model of one!!
Go to http://www.katousa.com/customer-phot-gallery/index.html
and you'll see it (along with my NH F-units...)
"...MN Genesis locomotive with the original NH livery..."
By the way, that isn't actually the "original" NH livery. Where passenger diesels are concerned, the original livery was Pullman green with yellow pinstripes. The livery CDOT is using is the McGinnis livery, which was the third major NH livery (I think?).
How about a Genesis locomotive in bright orange with silver pinstripes and dark green roof? :-)
Frank Hicks
Anone remember the train wreck on the London Underground back in 1975? A T/O was pulling into Moorgate terminal and he made no attempt to slow down and crashed into the retaining wall with the cars telescoping into one another. The first thing I noticed was that there were no one shot signals or homeballs to slow the train down. Seems like it was left to the T/O's discrection. So it answers my question as to why there were so many red signals coming into a terminal, a situation that I refer to as a strawberry patch. I'm not a T/O, but I can appreciate the existance of one and two shot signals.
?????
What was your question?
The official story was that the T/O suffered seizure. The LUL had no trip arms. Yes so it is left to the T/O's discretion.
AEM7
Does anyone know if the city plans to have any express trains running between Wall Street and Times Square?
- Thanks
Effective 9/15/02, the 2 and 3 will again be running express for their usual lengths.
The reason that the express is not running right now is because when the WTC was destroyed, the tunnel was damaged under the WTC, and there is no way to run local/express service right now with that segment out. That line should be repaired by the middle of Sept, and express service will resume then.
Sorry if I've missed the thread. Are they installing a switch on the 1 line south of Chambers so trains can turn there instead of running through the South Ferry loop? Thanks
I guess you've been out of touch. Have you been on another continent?
The 1/9 will be fully recontructed from Chambers to S Ferry on 9/15/02. Only the Cortlandt St 1/9 station will remain out of service.
(The PATH train will take longer to restore. Est late 2003 or early 2004 for a temporary WTC station).
Thank you GB38. I'm well aware service is restarting next month. All I was asking is if they put that switch in south of Chambers with the current rebuild.
RUMOR says a full diamond crossover is being installed south of Rector St, enabling Rector to be used as a terminal in th event of a South Ferry rebuild.
"RUMOR says a full diamond crossover is being installed south of Rector St, enabling Rector to be used as a terminal in th event of a South Ferry rebuild."
Slightly more than rumor. Specifically mentioned in articles in the papers back in February or March.
Much more than a rumor. It's correct. A switch is being installed at Rector Street.
David
The 1has been proceeding into Brooklyn. On Sept 15, South Ferry will reopen and the 1 and 9 lines will run as they did prior to 9/11/01.
No, actually the whole line will be open again to South Ferry, through the WTC site. The only exception will be the Cortlandt street station which has been removed, but rebuilt as a shell until they decide what is going to be built at the WTC site. I believe they may also have addded a swich south of Rector, so they can turn trains there if/when they rebuild the South Ferry station to hold normal length trains, which has nothing to do with the current rebuild on the southern end of the 1 line.
[Does anyone know if the city plans to have any express trains running between Wall Street and Times Square?]
The city doesn't plan to have any trains running anywhere. NYC Transit, on the other hand, does.
does anyone have pics of the LIRR Wantagh and/or Bethpage station? thanx! :-)
Try here:
LIRR History
It's a great site.
Since I took those pictures of all the LIRR Stations back in 1998-2000(I think I'm missing St. Albans, Shea Stadium and Woodside), they have renovated so many of them that I probably should update the pictures "one of these days".
I took slides of all of the LIRR stations over a period from 1991 to 1994. It's amazing how the stations have changed, just from that point to when your photos were taken!
Well the diesel stations are of course almost unrecognizable today from my photos, but even the electric stations have changed quite a bit.
I'm still looking for pictures of the original Reynolds Channel Bridge in Long Beach as well as during the installation of the new Bridge. Any ideas or links I could go to?
There's been some debate about the existance of a 3rd center track at Cypress Hills and the rest of the Jamaica El. We originally wrote in the line by line guide that it was built then torn up; I got a correction saying "never built". Well I was going through the photo database and found:
Dave:
This pic reeks of IRT. The center track automatic signal is one giveaway, and the LO V's are another. I'd bet my diamond jubliee token on this one, it's an IRT el in the Bronx, likely the Jerome or Pelham elevated.
Why do you think that's Cypress Hills? That's an older IRT picture (the kerosene running lights are a giveaway) There wouldn't be any reason for an IRT train to be laid up the Jamaica L in more recent times, no less in the '40s or early '50s.
Well, because it's been labeled Cypress Hills forever; it's got the sharp left turn at the end of the platform, and it looks like trees down there as well.
And at the far end of the station there's the "bridge" structure which you can see in this photo (but this one doesn't show a center track)
and the roadbed has that dimpled look like something was on top before
The "bridge" structure exists at each end of every dual contract station on the Broadway-Jamaica line. There was never any more 3rd track than exists today.
Sorry, Dave, I accidentally posted this in answer to another poster, and I wanted you to see it, so I'm reposting it here.
****************
I see your reasoning but, no Dave, that isn't Cypress Hills. I don't even have to hedge my answer. In addition to all the points of omission and commission in other posts, I checked a 1916 photo of the station under construction. The Cypress Hills canopy looked then like it looks in the R27 photo linked by GP38, not the IRT-style canopy in the photo in question.
There are two completed local tracks in the construction photo and not a hint of an express track. I have no record, nor have heard of, an express track ever having been built later, and then there would also be a record of its falling into disuse and being removed.
In the days when I had the luxury of spending a lot of time in research, I became familiar enough with certain areas c.1900-1920 that I could identify unlabeled photos taken from angles I had never seen. Once I was looking through some photos of the general era at the New-York Historical Society and found one labeled "Brighton Line near Sheepshead Bay" that was clearly on the Bay Ridge right-of-way looking north toward the Canarsie Line. When I pointed it out to archivist, he refused to accept my identification. Finally, after bringing in some other history-types, they added my location, with a prominent question mark.
There are two completed local tracks in the construction photo and not a hint of an express track. I have no record, nor have heard of, an express track ever having been built later, and then there would also be a record of its falling into disuse and being removed.
I also think that if there was at one time an express track in at Cypress Hills, or any of the other stations on the Jamaica El, the middle would look like it does on the M line at Central and Knickerbocker Ave where there is a whole trackway (without ties or tracks) down the middle. There was a center track between Wyckoff and Central that was removed, however all the steel is still there. I doubt that they would have removed all the steelwork from any of the stations on the Jamaica El. They probably would have left the steel trackway in place and just removed the tracks and ties like they did on the M line, leaving the trackway structure in place.
Chris
Ave -
The photo of the BMT Elevated train rounding the curve in taken from the SW end of the out (Jamica) bound Cypress Hills El Station over Jamaica Avenue.
The El train is turning onto Crescent Street heading towards East New York junction and its next stop will be Crescent Street ISLAND platform station over Fulton Street just past the turn onto Fulton from Crescent.
The trees at the right and behind the train are the (I believe name is correct), Cypress Hills Cemetery runniung parallel for a few blocks to Jamaica Avenue.
The original Cypress Hills El station was a TERMINAL over Crescent Street where it dead-end meets Jamaica Avenue and terminated directly into the Cemetery Line Curb. This was until about 1916-17 when the line was extended via a turn onto Jamaica Avenue heading outbound (as seen in the curve on the photo you posted view looking inbound). The "bridge at the end" is the common Contract I and II thru deck assembly for the station platform track underpass and mezzanine to street below. This view probably was taklen in the late 30's or early 40's as gate cars still used the Jamaica El to Jamaica from other lines connecting at ENY. This is the new Cypress Hills "thru station" built to replace the original 1880's era terminal station of the same name.
The Jamaica EL NEVER had center tracks, and most parts didnt have the girders for same installed at the original building - except for center passing sidings and train layup uses near Jamaica.
Just because some of your photos have a caption on the (or with) them doesnt mean the provider knew what he (or she) was talking about UNLESS they took the photo themselves...a common problem. NO caption is better than a WRONG ONE - like IRT Gibbs cars ascribed as laid up on a never existing Cypress Hill Station center track on a BMT el 40 miles away !!!
Some of we "really older" guys (Me, Ed Davis, Paul Mauts, Ray Crappo, Karl B--etc) - who were all over and studied the systems indepth for the past 40 years --have a lot more knowledge and usually DO know what WE are talking about !!
Best Regards - Joseph Frank
(a Bona Fide historian)
Without a doubt, that picture was taken at Cypress Hills BMT Elevated station, looking west. The train is a Lexington Ave. El, made up of various wooden BU cars. The Lexington Ave. El had rush-hour service to 111th St. station. The Jamaica El extension from Cypress Hills to 168th St. was constructed as a two-track el, but wide enough with a provision for a center track. Only at 111th St., and from 160th St. to just west of the 168th St. terminal, did a center track ever exist.
Thanks, Harry (P)
I was aware of that fact that "BU elevated" trains did co-use the outer Jamaica (ave) EL line with the Steels (subway cars 1 foot wider) past ENY junction, but hazy and too tired to further research what el train routes per-se ran---I knew it had to be Lex (til 1950 closing) --but wasnt sure if a Fulton-Jamaica 168th Street (Park Row to Jamaica or an intermediate short turn-back stop further in) service would have (had ever) been running --but only would prior to the June 1940 closing of Fulton El from East NY to Brooklyn Bridge. After June 1940 yes, that would have to only be a LeX Train as the truncated Fulton St. EL ran one service remaining only - Rockaway Ave new terminal (just west of ENY junction a number of blocks) to Lefferts terminal over Pitkin Ave., Queens. After Nov. 1950 Lex service closed and ended EL gate car trains on outer Jamaica EL line.
Sometimes Harry, writing a picture caption can, (heh heh), turn out to be short of writing a short "story", which I wanted to avoid re: going into more depth on the "route source histories " of the el train shown in the "Cypress" photo.
Thanks for your appreciated and interesting recap info !!
Regards - Joe !!
Lexington Avenue L trains ran as far as 111th Street in rush hours.
A Fulton-Jamaica routing was no longer possible after about 1917 when the East New York Loop at Manhattan Junction (now Broadway Junction) was destroyed.
(The Jamaica El extension from Cypress Hills to 168th St. was constructed as a two-track el, but wide enough with a provision for a center track. Only at 111th St., and from 160th St. to just west of the 168th St. terminal, did a center track ever exist.)
That being the case, I think we have a plan. Install the third track from 121st to Cypress Hills, with no stops between Jamaica and Cypress Hills. Run a one-track extension on a concrete viaduct over the sidewalk adjacent to the cemetaries from Cypress Hills into the third track at Broadway Junction.
Then add six trains per hour at rush hour. You'd have 12 trains per hour running with the following stops -- Jamaica, Cypress Hills, Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction, Myrtle Avenue, Marcy Avenue, and on to Lower Manhattan. That's just five stops before Manhattan. You'd have six local trains from Jamaica -- their occupants would presumably switch the express at some point -- and six local trains from Myrtle.
With the third express track, the train from Jamaica would save nine stops compared with the skip-stop Z train, plus the slowdown for the Crescent Street curve and the extra distance it requires. At forty seconds per stop, that saves six minutes -- it could be an eight or even ten minute saving overall depending on how fast the middle track is signaled for. I''d bet that the express would attract enough passengers to fill the extra six trains.
Remember, the J/Z extension to Jamaica Center was supposed to take passengers off the E. It's been a flop. My former boss tried it, but even with skip stop, with up to a 10 minute wait between trains and the longer trip time, he gave it up. He went back to the E to the 6 to the 4/5 -- enduring the most crowded trains in the city.
Everything the TA has done to try to get people off the E/F has flopped. New equipment (the R16s), skip stop-schemes, a direct connection to midtown, and finally a direct connection to LIRR Jamaica, have all failed to attract people away from QB.
I think it could be done, but frankly I think the TA has given up. I think they gave up when they killed the KK up 6th Avenue.
Are you sure that's Cypress Hills? I don't remember the slanted roof on the Jamaica El platforms (unless they changed them from being slanted years ago). Great shot though, but I don't think it's the Jamaica El. I love these "mystery photos"!
Here's a photo of Cypress Hills. Notice the top of the canopies are straight, not slanted.
The floors are also concrete not wood. It is not a smoking gun.
BRT elevated lines originally did not have concrete floors either.
I believe that the platforms at all of the stations (excluding Marcy, Metropolitan on the M, and 168th Street, and of course the Fulton St section) on all of the Broadway, Jamaica, and M line stations were concrete right from the begining (circa 1915) when they rebuilt the old els from the original 1888 els (with woodened platformed island platforms).
Don't recall about Jamaica offhand, but many BRT/BMT stations had the "original" platforms sized for five car L trains and then the extensions were wood. It was interesting because you could see what the original stations looked like and then how they extended them.
One that always particularly interested me was Franklin Avenue, where about 250 feet or the original east and westbound platforms were concerete and then all the additions, including building over the westbound track, were wood.
Pre-Dual Contracts. BRT had operational rights over this line up until 1918.
And it looks like the third rail in Dave's picture is covered. Jamaica L third rail was not covered until prob. late '50s.
But that looks like an IRT line all around. I'm just curious why Dave thought it was Jamaica. I'm guessing it was previously mislabeled.
I've spent many enjoyable hours going through "location unknown/uncertain" pix looking for clues as to location. Even historical societies often take "best guesses" as to location in labeling pictures, and sometimes they don't work real hard at it.
Yikes, that sort of looks IRTish. I can't place a car class with that number of windows not that I am into that kind of stuff.
I would also add that that curve looks like Cypress and in on or two places there are pieces of concrete that seem to have tie impression marks. There may have been on or two more place to turn a train.
I see your reasoning but, no Dave, that isn't Cypress Hills. I don't even have to hedge my answer. In addition to all the points of omission and commission in other posts, I checked a 1916 photo of the station under construction. The Cypress Hills canopy looked then like it looks in the R27 photo linked by GP38, not the IRT-style canopy in the photo in question.
There are two completed local tracks in the construction photo and not a hint of an express track. I have no record, nor have heard of, an express track ever having been built later, and then there would also be a record of its falling into disuse and being removed.
In the days when I had the luxury of spending a lot of time in research, I became familiar enough with certain areas c.1900-1920 that I could identify unlabeled photos taken from angles I had never seen. Once I was looking through some photos of the general era at the New-York Historical Society and found one labeled "Brighton Line near Sheepshead Bay" that was clearly on the Bay Ridge right-of-way looking north toward the Canarsie Line. When I pointed it out to archivist, he refused to accept my identification. Finally, after bringing in some other history-types, they added my location, with a prominent question mark.
There were plans for a third, center track on the Jamaica Line, but this never came to pass. Would've been a 'super express service out to Queens. I believe Bob Anderson might have some more details on this...
Except for Woodhaven Blvd. The structure there has extra hangers to spread the girders out and build express platforms.
Another give away in the original photo is the platform wall. They were ripped out in the last-60's, but they never looked like the one in the photo.
Anyway, maybe they should build it now.
Let's say they get the LaGuardia Extension past the NIMBYs (with everything else on the table, they may decide it isn't worth fighting for), and people find out the concrete viaduct is, in fact, quieter. Maybe they could eliminate the curve and extend the line right down Jamaica Ave into Broadway Junction as a three track. It would be possible to run express through Brooklyn, anyway, and the express coudl probably battery run skiping every-other station in Queens.
There would be no point in straightening out the section between East New York and Cypress Hills. If you want to save a few minutes sure. But don't forget that a cemetary runs along Jamaica Av on the north side of the street. The current line now from East New York to Cypress Hills runs through a densely populated area (I should know I live at Crescent St). There would be no point (In my opinion) to relocate a portion of the elevated just so you can get there faster. If you want to do that just rip out the timers around each corner :)
A better idea would be just to send a single express track down Jamaica Ave west of Cypress Hills and leave the Fulton Street section as the local. It would be similar to the Queens line (and the unused Brooklyn express to Church Street), on both of those lines the express leaves the local and takes a shorter, more direct path.
Of course the express track would have to gradually raise itself before and through the Cypress Hills Station, so as not to have an at grade crossing with the Manhattan bound local track to slow it down. This would have to happen again near Broadway Junction. The Woodhaven Blvd station would also have to converted into an express station like Myrtle and Broadway Junction. I think it would then make it a viable alternative to the Queens Blvd Line both perceptual and actual. From another thread this week it said that J/Z line was just as fast or faster from JC to Chambers as the E was from JC to Chambers, this would make the Jamaica line faster than the Queens line to lower Manhattan.
(A better idea would be just to send a single express track down Jamaica Ave west of Cypress Hills and leave the Fulton Street section as the local.)
That's a thought. Just one track on a pedastal, over the sidewalk no one uses along the cemetary.
Yes, that is an IRT train. The kerosene lanterns and inboard
marker lights give that away. It is not a Lo-V. Look at
the door control mechanisms. They are the manual-style such
as were found on the Deckroof Hi-Vs that were never converted
to MUDC.
see here. However, that is clearly not a deckroof. I
believe we are looking at one of the few 1904 Gibbs cars that
escaped MUDC'ing. Ed Davis's book They Moved the Millions
should have the details if anyone has a copy handy.
This photo without a doubt is on one of the Bronx IRT lines. To my knowledge, this may be the 177 Street(East Tremont-West Farms) station on the White Plains Road Line or Simpson Street on the same line. A majority of stations on the WPR line had these cubic windows on the platforms in the past. If I might be wrong on this location, this also might be the Third Ave El in the Bronx as well. Similar looks and dimensions to the White Plains Rd line.
may be the 177 Street(East Tremont-West Farms) station on the White Plains Road Line or Simpson Street on the same line.
In the photo, the following features are present:
- IRT Cars
- IRT Local Station
- an elevated structure
- 3 Track line
- a sharp bend to the LEFT after the station.
I believe the only stations fulfilling all these are:
- Simpson Street (2)(5)
- Castle Hill Avenue (6)
- Buhre Avenue (6)
- Bliss (46th) Street (7)
- 19th Street (former 2nd Avenue El - actually on 1st Avenue)
What about Bronx Park East facing northbound?
I think you might be right. Here are two photos of Simpson, with the original first. One shows the curve (amazingly still with trees) from a little further away beyond the canopy, and the other shows the canopy (from the wrong direction) that looks just like the canopy in the original photo, minus the glass. I'm pretty sure it's Simpson.
Oh my godness... what happened to the buildings in the first photo?
N Bwy
Maybe they were't built yet? When the Bronx els were built some areas were almost farmland yet!
WOW!
I don't think the b/w photo is Simpson Street. The IRT automatic signal in the first photo is different from the ones in the other two photos. My gut instinct is that the first photo is Castle Hill Avenue looking northbound.
OK Guys - the Game is over
I have an original copy of that photo from my negative # 1868 of that exact photo --(looks like extra copies of it got around after all these years)
--in my IRT Pelham Bay Elevated Photo album, since 1959 when I started it.
The photo was taken in July 1952 and is looking northward from the southern end of the uptown el station platform at the BUHRE AVENUE Station. Most layup were in this area and to the north on the center track
The Lead car is IRT Gibbs Motor # 3400, the number is clear in my much clearer original photo --NOTE the white line (is white on the actual car) under the number designating HI-V Class) and the following car is a High-V MUDC Trailer car, followed by more Hi-V MUDC units.
I have many more photos of both Steinway Type Low-V and Hi-V cars stored at this point up thru early 1960.
The photo on your page is an EXACT tho grainy picture of my photo in my album!
Below is a photo of my O scale model, (with complete HI-V Gibbs car interior details !) on my O scale El system.
Regards - Joseph Frank
NYCMTSystem - NYCTMGroup - NYCMTAssociation
Thank you, Joe! Original research is not dead.
Score another for the old-timers! (BTW--you wouldn't happen to have my straw hat inyour collection?)
Hello Paul --
No, heh heh --you said those "hoolligans" picked it up when you got off the BU El train in (you said it was 1907, I tought it was in 1903, well, were just that much younger then now)-- the dark and fell down the embankment because you forgot there was no more street running on the Brghton Line - it was raised to the embankment. The kids ran away with it and the el train was pulling away with me on the open platform...nah - that hat s lost to history.
I see "grimmace" is still insisting, AFTER my post of The Photo of the Hi-V locale being at Burhe Avenue - (I have a negative & original print of the SAME print) -- THAT it MUST be Castle Hill - GOD, Paul,. these guys just wont listen and learn I KNOW it was BUHRE Ave -- I was there many times at the spt on the platform - on the Pelham--the clue is on the left side (downtown) platform - the ad sign at this same location on many of my photos at Buhre into the late 60's - is the same shape and size. I dont know why I waste my time anymore to help - ignorance seem to be bliss here !
Regards - Joe
This has been a fun discussion--I think it gets the historical interest juices flowing on the Board when people get a chance to figure out where a picture is. You start to look at the BIG issues first--"is that the BMT, that looks like an IRT train" and gets down to the details "That's a Lov. No, not a Lo-V, a Hi-V, but what kind--a GIBBS Hi-V!" and "those canopy lights aren't right for BMT--must be IRT, but where?" etc. etc.
I guess maybe Grimmace didn't see your post (I do that too--not reading all the responses)--when you're hot on the trail of the Hound of the Bensonhursts maybe you're not noticing that Sherlock Holmes has already solved the case. Eh, Watson? :)
Well I have a lot more uncaptioned photos where that one came from....
Throw 'em at us!! We're hungry for fresh meat! (Heh)
Keep them coming!
Go Dave!
Dave, to quote The Rock: "Just Bring it!"
Well, questions of historical detail have led to bloody battles in a lot more august surroundings than this.
But better we should be tearing each other to shreds over those than the off-topic rants of the past. :)
Certainly, you'll get no argument from me, Paul...;-D
And several captioned incorrectly. Totally understandable, given the 2000+ pictures on the site. BTW, this Q-type is at Metroplitan Ave, not Vanderbilt as captioned.
Definitely Metropolitan. You can see the NYCRR tracks also to the left of the train. It's truly hard to have everything labeled correctly. I find that if I don't label my photos soon after I take them, I sometimes have trouble accurately labeling them! Lots of time weeks or sometimes months will go by before I find the time, and I pay for it when I finally do, because it is that much harder, and takes more time.
I mean to the "right" of the train......
Hmm, that must have been a recent screwup from my database normalization project.
Ok, Ok, Ok,
Grimace 1169 - sorry to have jumped on you - we ARE here to enjoy ourselves - but some of us (me also) ARE serious about our Professional Integrity AND our Archival & Historical work..and its gets tough sometimes -- nothing personal - so
I APOLOGIZE FOR JUMPING AT YOU - SORRY !!!
I know you will understand and take it all with good nature----sincerely.
Joe
Yeah, it's all in fun...it's hard to read every post. Everyone is bound to miss a few....look forward to the next one!
Apology accepted. I was born too late and so I am left with trying to put pieces of a subway jigsaw puzzle back together for myself but realize that a lot of the pieces are missing. That is why I come here. Just please try to relax and understand that most of us don't read every post as was the case here. You have good information and make great models and that is certainly nothing to be disrespected.
Thanks Joe. Yes, I guess copies of those slides have made it around-- of course, sans captions! Maybe you should start scanning them for the web...
-Dave
From Joe's collection--the original negative and a PS-enhanced print. Negatives don't scan real well unless you have a scanner made for the purpose. As Joe said, this is Buhre Avenue on some exotic foreign system. What did he call it? Eye-ahr-tee? :-)
Hey Paul ---Ohhh, cripes--- HELLO Paul---
HEY - THANKS PAUL OLE PAL FOR THE PHOTO-TECH HELP HERE - MUCH APPRECIATED !!!!!
Jeezus - yeah, nice job, on your previous post reply on your doing the negative and negative to positive images--I knew you had the equipment when I sent that negative email to you...yeah, heh heh, its not a (the AYEE-ARR-TEE) foreign LINE - its a foreign TIME for many here --and a few of us who were there still have the marbles and the clear memories with us (heh)
Big Ed will get a kick out of this --- Yepper, Gibbs cars on the Jamaica Line center track at Cypress Hills in 1952 -- by Digital Dynamics Corp (heh heh)
Yes sir-eee, someone could probably sell a picture of a BMT 1300 series convertible El gate Car in a train on the IRT 3rd Avenue El at Chatham Square station, upper level over St. James street, downtown Manhattan, circa March 1972...with our buddy Heypaul as Motorman on the Otis Elevator style controller !! I better stop here, Paul -
Thanks again for the support from you as one of my peers !
----and DAVE P --as you know my best regards always go to you, and sorry for the rukus I am causing here with all this picture stuff...but at least its on topic...yeah !
To All, Sincerely, Joe
Seriously, modern digital editing tools and the rise of digital cameras (including professional video cameras) are leading us to an era where photographic evidence say, of crime or war, may be totally bogus.
We've come a long way from when Uncle Joe's "artists" would "disappear" Trotsky from some of those pictures at Red Square.
Yes Paul
Very valid points--and I have considered that much over the past few years what with what they do on the movie big screens ---I betcha they can digitally recreate the Manhattan 3rd Ave El and put it back on todays 3rd Ave, as if it was still there - like they did on a Chicago EL in the movie Great Gatsby (I think).
Remember when we were kids the phrase "a picture doesnt lie" and "a picture is worth a thousand words" --yep, back with me when you lost your straw hat and ascot that dark eraly evening on the Brighton line El Car ride home in (between 1903 and 1907 -lets compromise here) --wel, umm, way back when.
Yeah, those phrases --remember them even in the 1950's too...BUT NOW --digital effects compuet graphics, digital camera & video equipment -
NEW UPDATED PHRASES -- for the Millenium --as follows >>>>>>>>
"A digital picture can be a total (AWESOME!!!!) lie"
and
"A digital picture can give worth to a 1000 words of Lies ! "
Is Nothing is sacred anymore !!??
Regards - Joe
Yooo- Paulie
Aaaah, UUmmm, ----Szooo monny timesz I tolllud Yuss, vee,---- Aaah, UUummm--- vee daant taaark aboutz doose thingks --I varrned yuss unt varrned yuus szooo monny timmesz, SHAAAD-DOPP aboutz alls dot craaps unt schitz fruumz ze old dayzz ---yah vohl !
Dankke-Yuus
Reguutsz, -Johaan
> ----and DAVE P --as you know my best regards always go to you, and
> sorry for the rukus I am causing here with all this picture
> stuff...but at least its on topic...yeah !
What are you talking about, ruckus? First I started this one. And besides-- at least this thread has been interesting to me! :-) Please, keep up the good work!
That has to be Castle Hill on the 6. Well, I could be wrong but at Simpson, the station has two seperate mezzanines just off the platform level on each side/direction. In the picture it appears that we see ads fastened to the railings of a staircase leading down to the mezzanine which is what Castle Hill has.
Hey Grimmace 1169--
DID YOU READ MY EARLER POST ON THIS PHOTO FROM FRIDAY LATE NIGHT??? ->>> ITS BUHRE AVENUE <<<- pal -- I HAVE A NEGATIVE AND ORIGINAL PRINT OF THE SAME EXACT SCENE - AND SHOT IDENTICAL SCENES AT THE SAME LOCATION THRU LATE 1950'S TO EARLY 60's !! Comprende ????
I just dont know what part of the English language you dont understand...when someone offers you factual proof, you rattle on without a clue.
I even gave you the car # 3400 - I HAVE THAT SAME PHOTO -- does it have to come from GOD ? (jeezzus!!)
Regards - Joseph Frank
Hey, lol, calm down.....maybe he didn't see your post yet when he posted. Alot of times I just post as I'm reading, I don't usually read everything before I even begin posting.
Hello Chris ----
His post was a few hours after mine and mine was the only post on the topic before his --easy to spot in the lineup ---here is the Photo NEGATIVE - had to videotape it to scan-jpeg & url it --but its the same picture...and its BUHRE AVE
Note the ad sign on the platform at left of the IRT Gibbs car # 3400 - I have more pics of Low & Hi V cars there with the same sign and its Buhre Ave...I was there !!
Hope this clears things up --nothing gets a person
of substance and integrity more riled up than people who beat a dead horse in spite of the facts.
BTW Chris --YOU seem to be very sharp yourself!!--You actually stuck to your guns about Fresh Pond Photo when me and some of the other guys got waylaid on that one ---your adamant stance on that got me to re-investigate it --well you know the rest...you were right and I backed you there.
Best regards - Joe
NYCTMGroup - NYCMTSystem - NYCMTAssn.
Hey Joe,
I did manage to get up your negative with a generated "print" in this post.
Yes Joe, as soon as you were 100% sure, I threw in the towel as soon as I read your post....I knew you had the right station.
That Simpson photo looked pretty close though...it had me fooled until you claimed it was Buhre!
Chris
Thanks. I was jumping around at random and was reading yours and someone else's post and then I responded. I really didn't read Mr. Frank's and a lot of the others. I think we are all guilty for writing while not reading everything.
No Joseph, I did not read your post. I didn't have enough time to read everyone. It looked like Castle Hill to me because of the stairs and what looked like a tree past the curve. I remember that at Castle Hill the street keeps going and at Buhre there are buildings. Then again it is an old photo. Had I read your post then I would have not written my post. I would not have written anything. I did say I could be wrong. I was.
Sorry for re-hashing this but I feel I just had to get it out of my system. I know you apologized and I accepted your apology but most of your post was really unnecessary and it really stung. You had no proof that I had read your post and shouldn't have assumed that I did. I was answering someone else. I admit that the tone of my post was a bit cocky which might have been what set you off and to which is VERY unlike me. I was merely stating my opinion why I didn't think it was Simpson and why I thought it was Castle Hill, to which I don't feel I was rattling. I was very certain it was Castle Hill and much, VERY MUCH surprised to find out it wasn't and that's great because we now know where this picture was taken. This was not an attack against your professional integrety. Like I said in another post, I am not an old timer so I didn't experience all of those wonderful things that you have and I can't change that. I'm a human being and I make mistakes but I don't appreciate being made a fool of.
Thank You.
Hello Grimace 1169
Thanks for your post ---was hoping you let it roll by..but glad to hear from you anyway !
You know, it take a LOT OF TIME to research a lot of this stuff thru the caverns of stuff I have here...and its one thing if it's for something important, like a publication I am doing, or for someone else's publication, or a magazine article
like the couuntless ones I did in the past...but when I spend 2 or 3 hours delving thru stuff to basically, just HELP some guy posting on the internet to get a straight, FACTUAL answer, and then have my work just overlooked, dismissed, like I am some new babe in the woods "no-account", well, that JUST DOESN'T sit too well with me. I have much more things to do with my time in lieu of WASTING IT and can use my expertise elsewhere were it is wanted & needed.
As I stated in another post somewhere before, IF I DONT have an answer, or CANNOT OFFER something substantative, I keep my MOUTH SHUT...unlike a number of others here who just have to chime in their un-substantiated "I think so's, but I"m not really sure, and all the similar useless and just non factual "data" phrases dumped into posts by some.
Grimace--if I ask someone what time it is --3 things I dont want to hear from them --are -
(a) "I dont know but I THINK its (xxx) o'clock"
(b) "Hey, yeah, dude, uhh, its about 12:00 noon" (when I know its really closer to 10AM and no where near noon yet!!!
(c) "Hey, Joe, do you know how the clock was invented and made???" ---(and then lead up to telling me, long after the fact and my need to know, what time it finally is !!!)
I would rather GET THE CORRECT TIME ---or have an honest reply "Gee, I just dont know, Joe, sorry"
My point --- we are here to have fun, and of course, gain some text and photo image knowledge, thanks to Dave's site here. However, when I reply to a post seeking info - I check all the relevant fresh, recent new post replies to the thread to see if the mystery-question was correctly solved. I just dont blow onto the board cold-cocked and blast out my
"think so's, could be's, may be's, might be's, or I JUST kNOW its here or there----" -only to find out that someone (or more than one) has already FULLY & FACTUALLY answered the question concisely, and there I would be, looking like THE FOOL after the fact --posting "nano-knowledge-nothings"...for nothing !
So, Grimace, I didnt intend to make YOU look like a fool, no way, but was just asserting that I factually knew what I was talking about, and I DONT like being made to look like a knowledge-less, bufoon-fool neither...as long and as close as I have been around the NYC Transit scene.
So, again, I apologize for juming on you --and I posted it bold-type to UNDO somewhat (heh) the previous post in Bold type.
I have enough work to tend to on my own NYC Transit Modelers Forum Board - but I come here like we all do to "browse" and if I can add something of USE, or SOLID INFO, historical or Tech support, to help --if I can infact help--anyone who asks -- I dont need to be blown aside by volumes of "hot air" from various corners.
I do really appreciate your post to me and your comments and fully understand them, and accept them, and I am glad you replied to me to talk it out.
BTW - "Big" Ed Davis, an old friend of mine also, emailed me yesterday---discussing the threads here, and he related to me that---
---"Yeah,heh heh,--- Grimace ---he is a younger guy - but he's really a good one -an "OK" guy---!!!" -
So, Grimace, if Big ED says so, then I say so !!!
Have a nice Day !!!---I guess we have more pictures coming to research from Dave down the line !!
---Hey, Grimace ---BTW--look closely on the POSITIVE print Paul Matus "conjured up" from my posted photo-negative --you can almost read BUHRE on the station sign at left - check it out !!
Sincerely, Joe
Ummm ... Unca Joe? That was ME that vouched for Grimace in email. If Ed did also, double good. There's a LOT of folks here who mean well and don't get things quite right, then there's others who can actually speak from their seat without a ventriloquist and DEMAND that you tell them they're right no matter what.
I'd hate to see folks stifled in the awe of those of us who were there for particular situations, gasbags aside of course. After all, we come here to have FUN (I hope) and pick up on things we didn't know or thought we did but our best memories turned out WRONG.
If I had a nickel for every thing that I actually DID that I don't remember correctly, well ... I'd have a lot of nickels. And as we all know a nickel will get you on the elevated, a beer or a cigar. Seriously though, THANKS for the morsels of things *I* didn't know and as you and I have discussed elsewhere, I too was a third avenue el customer - well, what was LEFT of it anyway. Heh. All I can say in my own defense is that it's a good thing that the MIND goes first. Not like it's a vital organ. :)
And I'd hate to see others (except for a few gasbags) feel reluctant to post if their intentions were misinterpreted. Then again, we talked about this privately yesterday. Moo!
Yahoy, "Fatha" Kevin----Geese maligner----moooo
Yeah, you and I and Ed covered things in emails -- but being poor Grimace got the "Bold Red Letter" retort from me - he became the focus between you, me and ED...and both you mentioned that he was an OK guy --if similarly different ways ---perhaps the wording of whos text vis: whose text got welded, but the main point was made.
Like I said, a lot of bandwidth & time wasting to read thru, "ying-yang texts", scrolling around and back and forth here at S/T - to get to the G--D--- bottom line facts of what the end result (THE REAL ANSWER OR NOT) is like trying to get thru a rubic cube at times !!
We have discussed that --lots of us -privately,
IE: --A Question is posted...40 or 50 repsonses come thru, many varying more and more off topic, many with not even a concrete tidbt of concise info to even equate or execute an answer --- but / and / lo and behold, thru it all, you eventually find (if it ever was found in the first place) where someone actually posted the correct answer---like finding a needle in a haystack.
Like I keep saying Kevin, If a question is asked, and I can contribute to ANSWERING with concrete facts..and even more interesting facts than needed, I will do it if I feel its worth my effort. But if I dont have anything significant, concise, to help provide an answer, I mind my business and dont waste my time, the QUESTIONERS time, and the other people's time here who really would also like to see the same question ACTUALY answered, and correctly.
In the Military, or Law Enforcement, or the Courts and Legal System Fields mentality --some of which I had to work amongst - the rule is "just the straight facts please", "no BS," no "ying yang", "gasbags as you call some" and no "hearsay"!!
Real people, in the real world, trying to accomplish real things, dont have time for "wind , gas and hot air"....
--ie: Question: 2 + 2 = ??? Yes, its answer is
" 4 ", NOT simple and inteligent.
We ALL come here for enjoyment, and Daves board has
provided great potential for people here (and lurkers) to see, enjoy, and learn a lot...but if 3 people out of 50 know a bona-fide answer to a question, why do we have to sift thru 40 + posts of, "-- I dont think so but really cant be sure, --could be, -- well, might-a-been -- and etc etc .
I mean - YOU CANT PASS A TEST EXAM with those kinds of answers -- it just gets old after a while and takes forever to wade thru it all to get from "FIRST in thread" to the end result, bottom line Final True Factual answer.
We are talking about a board that generates 400 or more posts DAILY - thats a lot of volumne to sift thru, including the nano-minutae-nonsense.
That is the whole point I am making.
And YOU know exactly what I mean and I KNOW how you feel (heh heh --aahhh, we have , ummm, discussed it "privately" --- " bing bong" ---
Good hearing from you..drop a few tomatoes over at my place --will you ??? You can catch Ed there
Regards --Joe
Agreed entirely, and I *DO* understand ... however maybe it's just me, but I never had a problem confusing "the internet" with reality and while I *do* appreciate that there are a good number of VERY earnest people who really KNOW their stuff there's every bit as many MORONS out there as well. Sorta like depending on CNN or MSNBC "cable nooze" for facts. I *appreciate* subtalk greatly as well for the few nuggets of fact that appear here and there as well, but one really DOES require a really fine-tuned "BS detector" as well.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that this place is fun, it's entertaining, it's EDUCATIONAL and it's EXASPERATING at times too. These are days of "instant news" where any moron with an opinion and a token is every bit as valid as a journalist as long as they have a keyboard. I also believe that many of us are capable of separating the wheat from the chaff and at times actually can ENJOY the stupid every now and then.
My whole point though about speaking up for Grimace (as well as E_Dog and others here and there) is that this place has *SO* many sidetrips, GO's, GOH's and tangents going on that it becomes nearly impossible for folks to see, read and deal with each and every message. And in Grimace's case (as is my own situation all too frequently) I never get to wade through all the messages since I just simply CAN'T ... I've often posted a comment in a thread that I'd forgotten I'd been in and then a few days later, someone emails me demanding to know why I didn't answer their post ... then TRY to find it. Subtalk is so popular that it can TRULY be overwhelming.
There's some of us who are DEAD serious and then there's kibbitzers like me who believe in the biblical lessons of Krazy Kat and Ignatz and I've got me this ten pound brick here. Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. :)
What can I say?
But we've all been able to largely "spot the looney" and decide for ourselves what and who we read (IF we have the time) and what you have here is a large volume of on-goings that we just can't find the time to get into or keep up with. What I'm saying is I didn't see any malice or naysaying, it's often hard to follow the threads here even WHEN people try to keep them from drifting. And some of us get a damned good chuckle out of the tangents too.
But there's an awful lot of people here who may say the wrong thing from time to time who GENUINELY mean no harm. I prefer to whack those who go out of their WAY to be A$$holes and let the others ride. If they want to hear the facts, they'll listen ... and if they're morons, then they'll continue to gas off until the cylinders don't move any more ... I often ponder Sam Morse's words with respect to the internet - "What hath God wrought?" Word. :)
I'm sorry also. I may contribute sometimes to the "Maybe it's XXXXX". But I just thought it's part of figuring out where something is. There are sometimes points that each person contributes that when combined can come up with the answer, if someone hasn't actually said, "I'm 100% sure it's wherever".
For example, the photo I posted that said it was Forest Ave on the M, but obviously wasn't. I didn't know where it was, but KNEW it wasn't Forest Ave, so I just speculated that it MAY be Knickerbocker or Central because of the center girder there, which only was at those two stations.
If I'm wrong at doing that please correct me, as I don't want to annoy anyone. I just thought that speculating something like that may help someone remember, "Oh yeah, that's XXXX station".
Chris
Good point Chris --- Hell NO, I am not annoyed - and YOU are reallying trying to solve it. But what I do is do all my "thinking and anaylzing" in my head and my office...make notes (reminders after a certain age) --and WHEN I get something CONCRETE --a CLUE that is REAL and leads to "something" that maybe someone else can expand on - THEN - and only THEN, do I submit it..and ONLY when I am sure the CLUE is real, a Bona fide Fact-clue, and will lead to something more factual and fruitful in producing an answer.
IE, I might get 4 clues in an hour and half research, I put them all at once in a post...not one clue each time I find one clue---I am not in a "race" to be the "winner" or "first" with the answer to get a "stale brownie cookie" (heh heh) consolation prize.
The benefit for ALL here is to arrive at the Proper Factual-derived answer (if at all humanly possible at some times)--doesnt matter to me (shouldn't to anyone really) who wins---ahh, umm, yeah - "Jeopardy" by getting the answer first !!!
Note that I havent responded to that "Forest Post Photo" --2 reasons, havent had time to jump deep onto the picture end - and 2 - I am NOT SURE YET what my initial, limited research, assesment is --so I dont want to "pass gas all around the board-room"
doing Ralph Kramden " hummadaa, hummadaa, hummadaa," --ie: because I want to sound like I know what I am talking about to the board here, but have nothing concrete to say !! SO I say "Nathinn" -its better and also a courtesy towards all of you that way, I feel. (instead of blathering aimlessly on!)
To Quote Kennedy (First, before I say this about that, let me say that about the other thing first !) let me state this, Chris --boldly !
YOOooo- CHRIS -- for a young guy, YOU are PRETTY SHARP on this photo research and I RESPECT THAT and what you are trying to accomplish - and am sure MANY others here do also !! (trumpets blast now)
---heh - and I sincerely mean that --keep up the good work and perseverence --you are on the ball, dude.
Regards - Joe
Thanks very much for your post, Joe. Like I said, I know we said apoligies but it was still bothering me. It really looked like Castle Hill but trust me, I believe you when you say its Buhre. Had I read your post I wounldn't have posted anything. I do understand your point of view and I will ty to take that into consideration in the future when I post. I don't think I could ever write/publish anything for fear of what I am trying to say is factually wrong. I admire you guys for that. I wouldn't really have a clue as to where to look. So much information seems lost. My only sources are from books and my own personal experiences. Your information is greatly appreciated. I wish you luck on your works.
Thanks guys for your support. I don't always have time to enjoy rail outings or research. I kind of got yelled at by my wife when I left for work early one day to investigate that Kings Highway picture. I am a TA man and I enjoy coming here. I still reside in Woodhaven so Ed was a former neighbor. I used to walk to Pitkin also. Great book, Ed!
Thanks for understanding. I now I learned a lot and I look forward to continue learning.
Do *ME* a favor? Don't change a THING ... you'll note how often when *I* post I say "***rumor***" or otherwise paddle my own but by saying "I ain't no EXPOIT *BUT*" ... there's as we used to hear 40+ years ago, "all kindsa pipples" out there. Some are ANAL, some are FUN, some are a truckload shy of a brick ...
WHATEVER you do, don't sweat cheesing people off here. No matter WHAT you say, someone's going to do the scene from "Taxi Driver" here - "you talking to ME?" :)
This is the FREAKING INTERNET ... no matter HOW bad your information, you'll beat CNN for accuracy EVERY time. Moo. heh. Don't let the obsessions of anyone else affect your mood. If you're REALLY twitchy like I've been lately you can always add "this is what I GUESS" to your posts. But the rest of us value your words and those of nearly everyone else here ... we may not be INTO what each other is into, we may not RESPECT the opinions of those who differ with ours, but in the end, it's a MESSAGE board. What does this mean, Mr Natural? Don't meen sheet.
Bottom line, if people can't filter their own eyeballs, ain't YOUR fault. And if people choose to claim false prophets as being meaningful, it ain't YOUR fault. There's cheese and there's mystery meat. It is incumbent on ANYONE using the internet to be able to smell the difference without benefit of human intervention. If truth, justice and the American way truly extended beyond Superman, then Bill Gates would be the sole inhabitant of Spandau Prison. :)
Almost as funny as it is true!
Yeah, I've always had a simple philosophy before it's MY turn to meet with the scrapper's torch ... "never take life TOO seriously, and BEWARE of those who do." ... works for me. :)
Selkirk, I hope you don't change a thing either. Your wisdom on life is very refreshing and welcome. You say some of the most funniest and wittiest things on this board. LOL! I kept reading my original post before and I kind of did sound like an *ss. I had the right line but not the right station. I try to give as much factual information as possible, but like you said, would have been better off posting the word GUESS. I don't try to take life too seriously either but sometimes it is easier said than done for me. I enjoy posting here and look forward to sharing information with others. If I happen to be wrong, then I hope others will let me know as long as it is done constructively as I would do the same. Thanks for your encouragement.
I agree with you completely. I do love coming here, and learning more. I've learned a lot from Joe in just a few posts, as he is very knowledgable. I even like the speculation a bit from others, because it does make you think. And yes, Big Ed has an interesting book there. His knowledge of the older trains is amazing. And it's funny that you mentioned that Ed lived in your neighborhood at one time, as he had lived in my former neighborhood of Ridgewood also - a street apart actually, I just missed him by a decade or so.... It's funny what a small world it is, and it's amazing how this "hobby" of trains can bring together so many different people of different backrounds and ages.
On a similar note, I really like these "where is it?" posts, not just to find out the locations of the photos, but more because I love that "before and after" photo thing. I like looking at how the stations have changed over the years - of course the train changes also, but also a big part of it is also is that I like to see how the buildings have changed. One of my favorites was a post many months ago that showed a train on the Myrtle El at Myrtle-Broadway, with another Jamaica train on the Jamaica-bound track next to an old abandoned building. It was taken in I guess the 50's and that building was abandoned then already! All it's windows were blown out. I remember waiting on that platform in the early 80's as a teenager looking into that abandoned building with "doors as boards" covering some of the windows. After maybe 50 years of abandonement, in the last year there are actually new windows placed in the building.
So it's fun, not just for the trains, but also the neighborhood changes. I love those 3rd Ave el Manhattan photos posted recently and as well as abandoned Jamaica El photos for the same reason.
Yes, the "Where is it" posts are a lot of fun. I have stood there many times looking at that same building while trying to get to Christ the King HS or from above when I worked Broadway-Myrtle tower a few times before it closed. Can't believe that it was abandoned so long either. Creepy looking. It wasn't a casaulty of the blackout since the picture is older.
That other thread I started that turned into Fresh Pond is in fact Kings Highway (Culver/F) looking northbound. I took a picture. Have things changed since then. I am trying to get Dave P. to put it on the site to share. If you want, I could email it to you.
Thanks.
Hey grimace, what year did you graduate CK? I went there too - 1988.
As for Kings Highway, a lot of times my first hunch is correct, as yours was with that Kings Highway trying to look like Fresh Pond photo, I think you mentioned you thought it may be Kings Highway right at the beginning. It'd be interesting to see how things changed there since the photo.
BMT El Gate Motor # 1234 at head of Brooklyn El local train at a local station stop in Brooklyn somewhere (heh)
********************************************
Hey Chris ---and Grimace
Check this out --Me and Kevin (Mooo-selkirk) were rapping at my place about the Burhe Ave thing ---and the FRESH POND Photo thing popped into my head ---check this
I BELIEVE that scene is part of the / a photo set Dave got for BU El trains running on Jamaica El in Lex-Jamaica service until end of 1950 and if you guys check that photo ----its COULD BE a LOCAL station on the Jamaica Line (where?? who knows ??) as it has the same "underpass" structure setup and style as the CYPRESS el station photo we saw with the missing center track and NO center track girders BUT the "space (NOT a constructed "load bearing" Track Pit, just a space ---is the roof over the mezzanine underpass built integral as part of and cnnecting the two adjacent "local track" supporting "thru-deck-bridge" units.
I think more research on the Jamaica line would help - if either of you two could check, via a ride on, in spare time, that line (I presume you both LIVE in "DA CHITTY" --) as I am stuck down here in "Quaker Tabernacle Quoir Land" 100 miles away and cant myself.
Remember - Jamaica El past Crescent Street to 168th street had NO center tracks NOR girders (except as prev. mentioned, 2 short layup stretches - one being near the 168th St. terminal section) -
West End and Culver Lines both have elevated center tracks thruout (except next to CI Yards on Culver)
Re: the Jamaica EL line, I think the BU El train threw you off from seriously considering that line--- I doubt many of you knew that El gate car BU trains ran Jamaica el "from the beginning of it all" sharing the bed sheets with the BMT "steels" till late 1950 when Lex El quit and Myrtle-Lex-Jamaica route service (with gate or any cars) ended.
Think about it guys !
regards --- Joe
Thanks, but I believe grimace had the right match (see my post to his) He took a current photo of Kings Hwy, and it pretty much matches (the platform has been extended since the original photo). He even got the corner of the canopy in it with the little slit in the corner (that's in the original photo also). It's a match.
Chris
Small world! Class of '87. Probably ran into you in the halls. I'll send you that Kings Highway picture.
Yes, it is a small world, we probably passed many times in the halls.
Thanks for the photo. I believe it's a match (worth getting in trouble with you wife), those buildings in the backround are the same as the original photo, with the platform extensions over that "overpass" cement area.
Chris
Hello Grimace =--
just saw your post about "Fresh Pond Photo" --well, if you went and field checked Kings (Culver Line ) Highway..GREAT...guess I was correct with my original premise of clues that it was a photo produced from an "island platform express station" view by using deductve reasoning and my knowledge of Elevated construction methods and the related underpass construction types and methods.
A track map I have showing the alignment of curved and all swicthes, stations, etc., confirms that subtle curve north of the K/H station and the particular way the express track curved leftward closer to the "straight-running" local track (one of my clues presented way back).
GREAT WORK --Grimace!!! I respect your Perseverence in solving this photo -thats what its all about.
Disregard my post nearby about the Jamaica Line possibility - I DO BELIEVE "YOU" have solved the mystery for us ALL. Job Well Done, Researcher !!
regards !!! - Joe
Yes Joe, disregard my other post to your Jamaica post too.....mystery solved....On to the next one!
Regards,Chris
Thanks. I do try to get it right. I had a little fun and went down there. I did goof on the Buhre one. I was very surprised about the platform extention. It really changed everything. That thru span was also very familiar but I remember seeing that at the south end of the 18 Ave. express station. That one they haven't covered over.
Hi Grimace --
RE: Topic of writing anything for public review
The only thing about writing for books, magazines or publications that any writer worth his/her "salt" must consider is " credulity of reputation".
Ed Davis produced a good book--and still with all Ed knows, there were a few small errors that slipped past him, no big deal, especially to me..I have a signed copy of that book from Ed --but Ed emailed me a few days ago that quite a while ago one "book reviewer egghead" ) I wont EVEN go near the 2 sentences of "descriptive terms" Ed described the reviewer with (heh) --"tore Ed a new bungy hole" over "chump-change" tiny minor errors...Cripes, yu'd think Ed labeled an R-33 Redbird as a "Hi-VGibbs car" or something - now THATS pretty bad...but Ed said guy went off the wall in his review.
Almost every professionally published NY Transit book I purchased over the past 40 years (probably have 'em all!) I Would say a great majority had some small caption errors --- in the 2% or less range. Thats Prrety Good in my estimation..when dealing with 100-- or more picturess. I usually caught them and typed up an "errata sheet" to insert into the book with corrections posted and page, photo numbers...for future archival integrity and recording. Sometimes a caption for a photo at LEFT goes under a Photo at right..thats a pasteup error - usually by a printing clerk who wouldnt have the subject familiarity to catch the error before printing. But at times, the caption was where it belonged but the descriptive text was --umm, less than accurate.
Point being, people who have built a reputation (and many I knew in times past) of " If he states its so, then its bonafide info coming from him..." - now thats called CREDULITY. I hope I have thru my life's work, established even a small morsel of that kind of credulity for my name..and that means something to me.
As far as Kevin (Selirk- the MOO-er) --who always states this phrase time after time -about "BEWARE of people who take life too seriously" ---"I say to you, Kevin..." (borrowing THAT line from Don Rickels) ........
YOOOOOooooo - Kevin - MOOOOOOOooooo
(Burrrrpp---Oink)
Seriously tho, Kevin is sorta right --but then again
(1) If Frank Sprague didnt take life and himself seriously, we probably wouldnt have both Electric and "MU" trains
(2) Same for Edison --lights & electricity--and Bell ----with the telephone
(3) Ditto for Henry Ford (cars)
----Wright Brother, flying & planes
----Charles Harvey, first elevated railway transit ----line --and I could go on aand on ---AND
They ALL faced adversity from their peers looking
at their projects with mocking, cavaliere dismissive attitudes...and being "serious" and believing in themselves, and their cause(s)- they triumphed.
One must draw the line between being, or appearing to be - a person with a reputation of creduliity --and appearing or presenting themselves as being a sort of "Deity" --or "god" of "Infalability" - as NO ONE can claim that right except " H I M " (cant use the proper, capital " G " word, politically incorrect on boards (heh heh heh) )
Do I take (myself AND) life seriously?? ---yeah, thats why I am where I am TODAY, (ie: quite well established and "set", ) have all that I have, dont have to bust my ARSE at myy age now by working 70 hours a week (like I did when younger at times) just to "break even" --let alone get ahead.
But like Kev says, and I agree, not TOOOoooo Seriously.
A long ago (and long deceased) young girlfriend of mine once said something very profound to me -quote- "Life is a Dream. but Death is the Awakening" - way back in 1968 just before she died --I never forgot that---and still wallet-carry a picture of her I took a few days before she died, ---but then again, I havent been excitedly and longingly waiting with desired anticipation (heh heh) to find out its its "true" !!!!!!!
Simply put, in closing, if I, thru my (whatever) "Reputation" -- can get people to feel and know that if they come to me for info, they can be guaranteed that I will either
(1) not be able to help them, and tell them so up front ---OR---
(2) Give them the information they can believe and KNOW is accurate and can rely on ----
----then I have accomplished something in this life here, and that being, being acknowledged as having Credulity, credability, reliability, honesty, --- all seemingly getting harder to find in todays society ---and those are attributes of someone who does take people, places, and things in life, for the most part, where and when it counts, somewhat seriously.
Bottom line is, a person, having valid reasons to do so, MUST believe in themselves first, because its hard to get most people to even believe in anyone today !! (heh )
Take care grimace --regards -- Joe !!
Yep ... I'd agree. You see, in MY case, *my* bread and butter (and 100% no screwing around) is in writing Software ... so for me, da choochoos is my "funtime" ... now that you've got me thinking here, I do owe YOU an apology too ... as much as I like trains and enjoyed my brief stint doing that professionally, it isn't my PROFESSIONAL life so I don't feel the need to take it as seriously. I see your point now though.
R E V E L A T I O N
B Y
D I V I N E
I N T E R C E P T I O N
(Eccum-Spiri-TuTu-O)
I N R I
I
___I___
I
I
I
I
PS: Dunwoodie was FAR superior to (heh) Greystone --we DUN had plenty a WOOD at Dunwoodie !!! (MOO)
You LIKE my Nice graphics work above from my el-cheapo Microflaccid "gum machine" unit??
regards !!!! Unca Joe
That was GRAYMOOR, Garrison NY, Friars of the Atonement. Metro North stop, NICE place. Seems as though I'm not the ONLY one dipping into da holy watter, eh fodder? :)
What --you didnt like my off-topic designwork - no comment???!!! (heh heh heh) (MUUUuuuuuuuooooo)
Thanks for the correction on GRAYMOOR - yeah, I saw pictures of that place somewhere, yeah, the retreat houses and monasteries had a "mystique" about them and always some kind of "rarefied air" aroma or scent about them (Male sweat glands, heh ???) and a tranquility and "hushed silence" within. You could hear a door close 1000 feet away, and a sneeze "echoed" thru the hallowed halls like off the grand canyon. Yepper, "de ole brainwash water-drop treatment" almost worked, but my girlfriend then "cured me" heh..in more ways than---better stop HERE, dont GO that "other" way --never did, always use the front main door...
Thanks for the Apology but I know you and didnt expect nor think I was due one as I didnt feel you were (ummm, maybe you were for that "Harrys Board wind passer I did...heh)" -----"wah's ev'rey bahdy pikin' ohn me?? ----directing it so much at me but in generalizations.
NOW GIT YO SORRY ARSE CARCASS OVER TO WHERE YOU USUALLY SPILL YOUR COFFEE ALL OVER THE PLACE - AT NYCTM GROUP - Ed Davis is there regularly and could use some of your banter there to mix with him --he's doing great there !! (as you know - you get the MSG emails ( FEH FEH )
Here's a photo for you to MOOOOOOO on !
regards - UNCA JOE !
Bring Back memories of "DA BRONCKS" ???
Dang, you thought of everything in those models! - even the shadows from the "sun" giving the lacework look on the street below....
Looks like home, only thing missing is the "H O N A R K ' S P I G W A Y" sign under da el. :)
Thanks for your help. Your post was very reflective. Especially the last sentence. I don't feel I believe enough in myself and if I want to be somewhere or do something then I must change. If you want something bad enough then you have to work hard for it. And like you said it requires being serious about it. I hope I will be able to reach that point in later life where you are now. It does make you feel good when someones asks for help and if you can, they know it is reliable information. It is appreciated that your pictures and information are being passed on to others and that we can believe what you say. BTW I really enjoyed that picture of the 147-148 St. yards with the train by the rivers edge. It is so different now. I enjoyed my years in the IRT. Didn't care for the traveling though, but I got used to it. I am glad I got to operate the redbirds before they go. Thanks again.
I don't see any of them in the photo.
Which one do you see there? Homer? Bart?
Eat my shorts!
Gad! Haven't heard that expression since I was a sapper in the Nixon Royal Regiment.
One giveaway that this is an IRT platform and not BMT is the exposed light bulbs on the edge of the canopy. The BMT canopies had their lights mounted inside the canopy on ceiling fixtures.
Bill "Newkirk"
This is a picture of an IRT station, probably in the Bronx. It is NOT a Jamaica Ave el station. They did not have incandescent bulbs along the edge and the canopies angle upward on Jamaica Ave. stations. That's gotta be Simpson St on the 2/5.
Someone here as been posting links to or info about a site like this. Would this person or anyone else who has it bookmarked please give me the address?
Thanks a lot.
Isnt that Elias's site?
Yes.
You'll find Elias' site here:
http://members.tripod.com/subways2020/
It's quite a good one (even if I disagree with him on a few ideas)...
I need to wash my hair. Wouldn't it great to have a "hair service car" on the subway so you can get your hair done during the ride? So many women do their make up and hair on the subway to save time in the morning. It would be a big hit if on the way to work, for $10 you could have your hair curled, combed, washed, tidied up, etc. And that way I won't have to wash my own hair at home. Much better. NYCTA might even turn a profit from it by hiring out the space to professional hairdressers.
The water supply may be a problem, but most hair-dos don't use too much water, so all they need is to cordon off a section of the car for water storage and they can refill it each night.
AEM7
That was scary!
-AcelaExpress2005
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
So you're saying convert a few redbirds into retro '60's beauty parlors?
Interesting, but what do you say Redbirds?
Well, why not? I much rather see them live on in some form than be sent to the bottom of the ocean. Then, jazz up the car with a retro '60's theme :o)
You're a sick man, Rico...
> The water supply may be a problem, but most hair-dos don't use
> too much water, so all they need is to cordon off a section of
> the car for water storage and they can refill it each night.
No need to waste on-board space with large tanks. Just install track pans at strategic spots, and scoop up water on the fly. (And perhaps separate pans for conditioner.)
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Try getting a shave on an IRT Express. A very slicing experience. A better idea is to have a bar car for those hard-working blue collar workers. It will be the only place in the subway where alchohol would be considered legal. I know after work, I got no time to stop in a bar. A quick swig and get off at my stop.
That's why I use an electric. The Remington Microscreen - "Shaves as close as a blade, or your money back!" lol
That's why I use an electric.
And why I stopped altogether :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is bar car service still available on the LIRR...
I think they still have bar cart service at a few stations like Jamaica, but the bar cars are no more.
You know, a bathroom car doesn't seem like such a bad idea sometimes. It doesn't even need to be all of one car, just a part, although on some trains it would undoubtedly be filled with those waiting to use the other half the train.
A Bathroom car is not such a good idea, people will get the idea of having sex in the bathroom.
I still like my Bar Car idea
OHHH???? And WHAT is wrong with having SEX in the bathroom?
*blushes*
AEM7
LOL!!! now, this is funny stuff!
Shows ya what we all lost when they did away with the older cars in favor of more "sitting room" and transverse cabs. Once upon a time, EVERY subway car had a "number one end" and a "number two end" ... city could have made some money. :)
And the ladies can't use the number one end. How long until people start crying discrimination?
Sure they can. Every number one end was equipped with a fold down seatie for the sweetie. And every motorman KNEW to leave the lid UP when they left the room. :)
In another thread, I mentioned the Chicago-New York Air Line, and someone else asked for elaboration, but it slipped my mind.
I'm bringing it up here because it is interesting and relevant both the traction history and some of our Amtrak discussions.
The CNYAL was an ambitious interurban project that was supposed to be a magnificently engineered two track electric interurban to speed passengers in the lucrative Chicago-New York corridor. No curve was to be taken at less than 90MPH. Gentle grades would be assured by cuts, fills and bridges. The expense of building one of these helped kill the fledgling project.
There aim was regular service between NY-Chi in 10 hours, compared to 16 hours that was the best time by crack NYC and PRR trains. Would that we would even get 16 hours now. Ten hours today would give you the possibility of making a daylight run between the two cities at any time of the year, or being able leave one city, have a decent night's sleep, and get to the other at a suitably early business hour.
Ambitious at the time, something like this (with modern equipment) could be a decided bargain, compared to the chronic over-engineering we put into many modern project.
I actually found a web page with a little info and some pictures.
Unfortunately, then as now, the killer expense was putting together a good right of way.
Point is, the Feds put this kind of money into highways every day of the week, or even, for that natter, in the way some light rail lines are overbuilt. This is 2002 not 1906.
Another killer expense was fraud and embezzlement! I'll have to look at George Bradley's book on the Northern Indiana, but that has some information on the Air Line. If I remember correctly, some of the line's promoters stole VERY large amounts of cash, which contributed to its early demise. I doubt that it would have lasted very long anyway - the line went from nowhere to nowhere, and wasn't particularly close to a good terminal destination - but that's what part of the problem was.
Actually, looking at that website with info about the Air Line, it says that a million dollars disappeared at one point prior to the line going bankrupt. Hmm...
Frank Hicks
One major problem w/ said Air Line was that no Railroad would accomidate the line crossing wise. Crossings at grade were either blocked by the RR's or too slow due to signaling and dispatching needs. The railroads refused to realign their RoW's onto bridges, so the Air Line was forced to build mammouth approach ramps (1/2 mile long each) to cross a dinky RR bridge. Needless to say it soon went out of Bussiness.
The CNYAL was an ambitious interurban project that was supposed to be a magnificently engineered two track electric interurban to speed passengers in the lucrative Chicago-New York corridor.
Interesting ... the "Air Line" in Connecticut and Massachusetts was a regular, mainline railroad, not an interurban. I believe it predated the CNYAL, yet the latter used the term for a very different type of project.
The term "air line" in railroad parlance had a similar implication to 'as the crow flies' or 'bee line' in colloquial speech--that is, a striaght, unencumbered line.
Though in fairness, bees do not fly in bee lines.
hey guys just letting you know that i will be starting with MTA Metro North starting August 19, 2002. thank you very much for all of ur continued support. special thanks to the following
TREVOR LOGAN AND TRANSITALK STAFF
CLAYTON PARKER
WMATAGMAOAH
ROBERT(NORTH EASTERN T/0)
Congrats.
Hope you find your job challenging and enjoyable.
Congrats: Hope that you have many years of enjoyment at you new job. Im still trying to get into the Boston MBTA. Again good luck - Kathy
Mucho Congratulations from someone who knows how good it is to be a part of MTA. Other day a supervisor is searching me out...I was 'Troubles' and at 2PM after walking the trainset half a dozen times, want no more trouble. He said, 'This is for you...don't lose the paper as you will not get another copy.' Transit did not send me anything official...the paper was a computer printout with a listing that I was PERMANENT STATUS. Probation is over in a couple of weeks...I think.
THIS is the advice we get: Keep your nose clean, stay out of trouble, don't get sick or be late, do your work and use your 'butcher book' to record problems/TTs/anything that happens.
THIS is my advice: always smile , say hello to everone that you encounter every day, be nice, never get angry, NEVER make comments to others about fellow employees until you get into their heads, try to be of help in a situation, take emergency service overtime IF your life will not be too disturbed and may the Lord Bless you to be safe and well. It was many months on the job before I found out whom I greeted almost everyday. People remember your repeated kindness...some try to take advantage of it...but it is no mistake. OT...I was introduced to a lot of the MTA brass in Coney Island by one of my supervisors...and one day someone just might ask me to work for them because they remember me. CI Peter
Congratulations!
It has been some time since I have had the time to sit down and write a detailed post of my travels. I have been quite busy in the past week and I will not attempt to bring you all up to date on where I have been.
On Wednesday, July 31st, I took the Metro (Breda 3269) to Farragut North, where I met a friend and had lunch. After we finished, we got back on the Metro (Breda 3113) and went to Judicuary Square. At Judicuary, we got out and went to the museum to see the exhibit about transportation. I found the exhibit to be interesting although I knew quite a bit about what it was discussing. In addition, I found the mockup of the operator's cab to be quite disappointing, the video of the view from the cab was not continuous, but rather hopped from line to line and the controls were not marked (post-9/11 fears I assume). While the average visitor would probably be impressed, I found it to be a not super exciting visit. I do encourage people to check it out, it closes on October 27.
Afterwards, I did bus my way back home, I did post this part of my trip on BusTalk right after so you can read it here.
Not too much noteworthy stuff happened between the museum and my going to New York on Saturday so I will skip ahead to that.
I took Breda 3236 down to Union Station where I went to the ticket counter to turn in my coupon for the free upgrade. Essentially, I travelled in first class for the business class price. The ticket agent told me I could go in the first class lounge and I did so. I checked in and was told they would preboard us almost momentarily but I still had time to walk around. I saw some of the things they tell you about being in there but I didn't see most of them.
We went out to the train and got on in the first class car, which was at the south end of the train. The trainset was number 16 (2012-2013). The attendant asked to see our tickets and gave us dinner menus. I was going to have a real dinner when I got to New York so I started by getting a Pepsi and eventually asked for whatever they had under the ligher fare heading of the menu. It was decent although I prefer the variety of the cafe car more. I did like the fact it was all included though!
The seats were as comfortable as the ones in business class. They were slightly wider than the ones in business and the armrest between the seats was wider. I was sitting in one of the groups of two seats on the left side of the train. The car was quite empty, I don't think there were ever more than 10 people. We had about 5 upon arrival at New York. This was train 2208 so it ended at Penn Station.
The service was just amazing. The attendant offered to do almost anything for us. He offered free water bottles when we got to Penn and even took my suitcase to the door and off the train for me. I think the level of service was well worth what one pays for first class but such enhancements probably should be made in business on a lower scale.
They had to "walk the train" at BWI and we had some other stoppages for unknown reasons. We were about 15 minutes late into Penn.
At Penn, I headed up to the subway where I caught R32 3637 (10th car) on the E and then R142A 7426 on the 6. I missed an R46 on the E at Penn and at 51st on the 6, I saw some people waiting for downtown locals which would not be arriving until after 5 AM on Monday morning! Somehow, half the stairway to the downtown was not taped and the handwritten sign didn't have too much of an effect. The escalator from the underpass to the platform appeared to be on, they should have had it off in my opinion.
The next day started off with a ride on D60HF 1068 to the Museum of Natural History. I saw both the baseball exhibit and the new space show. The baseball was nice but the space show was lacking. On the trip back to the East Side, it was 1040. 1068 was broken down at Central Park West when I got on 1040. I had lunch, did an errand, then took 9215 on the M15 down to Houston Street. This was a limited and very fast except for the fact there was construction at 60th Street which had things backed up for almost 10 blocks. It seemed there were no local buses around at all since we never passed one and the only other bus we passed was a limited which we managed to beat down to Houston.
On the return trip, we were walking to the M103 stop on the Bowery at 3rd Street when 6350, the Orion VI/HEV pulled up. Quite a few people were surprised at the fact the wheel was where the seats should have been. I then pointed out to them there were no steps and that the bus did not run on gas. The driver at one point told me I needed to get a life. Either the suspension or the driver's braking was really not that good. While I was standing the whole time, my traveling companions did have seats and said the ride was very rough. There was a wheelchair on board when we got on and I saw the lift operated when it got off. I also did the release for the folded up seats since the driver didn't do it herself. Finally, I got a free ride on that bus, but at 6th Street, an MTA employee got on, put more paper transfers in the machine, and fares were collected again. I got off at 72nd Street where I took pictures.
More to come!!!
oren, im still wonderin how you get da free upgrades?
For being an Amtrak Guest Reward member and traveling so frequently. I also had two free drink coupons (one still left and it expires on August 31).
ah!
the guest rewards points expire????? how many points did you need (for the upgrade)?
"I had lunch, did an errand, then took 9215 on the M15 down to Houston Street. This was a limited and very fast except for the fact there was construction at 60th Street which had things backed up for almost 10 blocks. It seemed there were no local buses around at all since we never passed one and the only other bus we passed was a limited which we managed to beat down to Houston."
M15 is notorious for bunching up. Incredibly high theoretical frequency of service but they come 5 at a time. You were lucky you only had to go to Houston. Waiting for a South Ferry bus (only half of them go below Houston) could be a killer.
One of the real pleasures of a 2nd Ave subway, if there ever is one, will be never having to choose between the 2nd Ave bus and heading over to Lex and back to take a subway.
You were also lucky to get an M103 so quickly. Most 3rd Ave buses originate/terminate at 6th St, and the few 103s bunch up too.
On a weekend, half the buses terminate at Houston? I think that is only weekdays and even then, more than half go past there.
As for the 103, we were going to walk up to the first stop, see if anything was coming, and if there wasn't, we could always keep walking towards 6th Street. I think one or two 101s and 102s passed us even though we passed 6th Street before they started.
On a weekend, half the buses terminate at Houston? I think that is only weekdays and even then, more than half go past there. I also must add the fact there was a wheelchair passenger on the M15 when we got on, so that delayed things.
As for the 103, we were going to walk up to the first stop, see if anything was coming, and if there wasn't, we could always keep walking towards 6th Street. I think one or two 101s and 102s passed us even though we passed 6th Street before they started.
Monday was quite a day for the railfan side of me. As if the fact I would spend about 8 hours on the subway the next day wasn't exciting enough, I was going on the 7 train on this day, too, and I was to make the most of it.
I had to meet a (non-railfan) friend at Penn Station. He took NJT there and I had to meet him at 9:36, when his train would arrive. I have no idea what car, type of train, etc he had, but I know I took R142A 7492 (9th car) to 51st Street and then R32 3466 to Penn Station. The incoming E trains were far more crowded than I had remembered them being in the past.
Once we met up, we headed to the 7th Avenue subway, where I traded in my MetroCard (it was going to expire at the end of the month) and swiped us both in. I led the way to the local platform, figuring chances would be a local would arrive first. Second time since 9/11 I have had to take this line one stop, second time I have chosen to go for the local, second time the express came in first. I don't plan to have to make this decision again before South Ferry opens. A 2 train did come pretty quickly afterwards and we got on the first car, R142 6466. The C/R did not cut off the announcements when we arrived at Penn, so Charlie did the usual 1, 7, 9, A, C, E, N, R, shuttle, and PABT. I did notice the doors opened before he got to the PABT but he was not cut off by the woman to announce the destination and next stop.
We then headed down to the 7 train to find a train of R62A singles on track 1 with 2100 on the north end. I had already informed my friend we would not be taking the R62As much and the next train to come in was Redbirds. 9764 was on the north end and took us to Queensboro Plaza, my first photo stop. Since we had left Penn Station about an hour before the first LIRR train to Shea, we had plenty of time before the game started. After photos at Queensboro, we took the last car of the next train to 33rd, where I got some more pictures of both Redbirds and R62As on both the local and express tracks. The third or fourth train to arrive had Subway Series cars in the middle, and we switched cars to get photos. One of the cars had the all blue front from when it was on the end of that train. We eventually wound up in 9398 although I don't know where in the consist that was.
Our next stop, 46th Street. I had not used this stop before although it is quite a good one since it has the curve at the north end of the station. Quite a few pictures at that point including 9608 on the outbound local being passed by an express towards Manhattan.
I decided at this point it was one more stop and then we would go all the way to Willets Point, over the bridge, and then to the game. The photo stop ended up being at 74th Street, where I got even more shots of trains on all three tracks. An R62A pulled in with a single at the end, 2143, and I decided I would endure the R62A for one part of our trip. We got to Willets Point, exited, and headed over the bridge, just as the passengers from the first LIRR train came in the opposite direction (11:08). Got some pictures around the yard, one train was signed as a 5 to Flatbush (WF cars), and some of the singles were sitting on their own in the yard. We saw one train of R62As go onto the leads towards the line although I have no idea where they were going.
The game itself was fine (considering I am neither a Mets nor a Diamondbacks fan). I had never seen Randy Johnson pitch before and he struck the first 6 batters out, all on swinging strikes. The Mets lost 2-0.
After the game we made our way back to the subway. Again, we waited for a Redbird without a scratched up window, which we eventaully got. Start moving towards 111th Street, hit a line of yellows, then a red. A put in for the evening rush is put ahead of us but he goes light. Still have a line of yellows. It turns out there was a failed signal right before Junction Boulevard, effectively tying up the whole line. To make matters worse, the PA in the front car (9527, a mainline car) didn't work very well and from what I could overhear, the T/O's radio battery was almost dead. We eventually got by the failed signal and after that, the pace was OK although the train was quite crowded. We got a skip at Queensboro Plaza, sending us express to Grand Central. There were plenty of people not pleased to see us go by. At 5th Avenue, we had some incident where the C/R felt compelled to yell something over the PA, I didn't exactly figure out why she was yelling and what for, but I did hear the T/O moan at this point "Just one more stop, let's go already!" Eventually got to Times Square, went upstairs, a 3 train of R62As pulled in (some of which still had not recieved the 14th Street signs). We got on the 9th car, 2467, went to Penn where my friend caught a New Brunswick Express to Jersey Avenue (interesting naming logic) and went home, I caught R32 3730 (last car) and R142A 7341 and got back to my place.
Still more en route...
P.S. The photos are not currently online at my website.
Finally sitting down and writing part 4 of this.
I did attend the Farewell to the Redbirds MoD trip back in May but I did make a second one for myself on Tuesday, August 6. I also did a few other things during the course of the day.
Started by buying my Fun Pass and heading over to the M79 to go crosstown but a D60HF came along on the M102 so I decided to make a small change in plans. I took the artic to 59th Street where I caught the R to Herald Square, where I needed to run an errand. The complex at 59th and Lex is a disaster. In order to get from the street to the R, I had to go down to the downtown 6, underpass to the uptown 6, and then finally to the R. On the R train, I rode in car 5870, which is an R46.
After my errand was complete, I headed down to the B and D trains. Not seeing anything on the D platform, I headed to the B and got on R68 2598. Moments later I saw a D going by next to us. I guess the D trains don't pull all the way up to the north end of the platform (or should I say, they pull all the way up to the south end). I didn't really care, we soon started heading towards Harlem. At 59th Street, I got off and saw the headlights of an approaching A train. It turned out to be an R38 (railfan window!). The first car was 4107 and I assummed my position up front. We never went more than about 42 miles an hour, someone needs to explain to me the purpose of timers for 125th Street starting in the 90s. At least we passed the B I was on. I took this all the way to 168th where I crossed over and took the first C train out from there, led by R38 4076. At 145th, an A train of R44 cars came in and it got priority, so I decided to wait for the next C train, hoping it wouldn't follow an A down the dash. R38 3989 was the next C train and there was no A train to follow, so I got on. What on earth are they doing at 86th Street? The train practically had to stop to get by there. This run was not much faster than the uptown run (C express due to switch replacement at 59-CC). At the express stops, we did not have to give the buzzes, I thought there was no 8 car spotting board on the express tracks.
Took the C (which was essentially an A) to Jay Street, then got an F to Smith-9th where service was far more frequent than I had thought it would be. Got some really nice shots of F and G trains rounding the curve coming up onto the el. The F train to Smith-9th was R46 5621 (I had started in the 4th car at Jay, 5382, moved back one at Bergen and back one again at Carroll) and once I was finished, I got R46 5984 to 4th Avenue, where I went down to the subway to get a train back to Manhattan. After about 10 minutes, maybe more, an R comes in and I get on. At Pacific, there is no sign of a W so I figure I will see what happens at DeKalb. No sign of a Q at DeKalb, in fact, the express platform is deserted. Figure I won't lose much time, if any, by taking the R through lower Manhattan. Saw Courtlandt for the first time since November. They still have all the DO NOT STOP signs at City Hall and Rector but at least Courtlandt doesn't have all the wooden pillars and DO NOT STOP signs. It looks like they could open that station right now. Right before 14th Street, a < Q > passes us and another one does so right before 34th (they couldn't wait at 14th, now could they?). This R train was pretty slow, even by R train standards. I think the back half of the train had quite a number of door holders or was just plain crowded. Too bad the M was running every 24 minutes, I wouldn't have minded the M to Lower Manhattan (again, provided there were no Ws or Qs) and catching the 2 to Times Square, where I eventually got off the R. Had lunch at a place closer to 49th but after spending almost an hour getting from Smith-9th to Times Square, I had had enough. I was an express train to a satisfied appetite.
Once lunch was taken care of, it was off for the second Farewell to the Redbirds. I did a bit of a repeat of what I had done the day before. Got on R36 9646 at Times Square and went to Queensboro Plaza. Got a picture of a W coming out of the 60th Street tube, then missed a shot of my Redbird coming in on the other side because I wasn't paying attention. Got on the last car, 9380, went to 33rd Street, got pictures there. As the next train I would board came in (didn't get the numbers since I was switching cars), someone left a bunch of newspapers on top of the black thing at the south end of the platform and they went flying as the train came in. It made quite a mess. Took this train to 46th, where I got some shots of the trains on the curve just east of the station, not to mention, I met some young lurkers around on this and some of the other transit sites. Quite a knowledable group, recording the car numbers as each train went by. Hopefully they will get involved here some day and they mentioned they had a website under development.
By this time, the GO that was sending all trains express was over, so the next train I took, 9577, was local to Junction. Naturally, an express passed us en route. Got the next express train to ride the bridge at 111th Street, led by 9714. The T/O on this train wasn't too happy about my taking a picture as the train entered. Although she admitted it was legal to take pictures, by virtue of the fact she was on the train, it wasn't permitted. I kind of wish the TA would tell their new operators that tourists are going to take pictures and they can't be miserable if it happens. Got a local back to Grand Central from Willets Point, led by 9753. At least this trip wasn't as eventful as the inbound I had made the day before.
Got to the downtown Lex, hoping to make it to Brooklyn Bridge by 4:10. Naturally, I couldn't find the staircase I wanted, so I had to go to the mezzanine and then back down to the 4, 5, and 6 trains. A R142 5 train was there and I got on. I eventually made it to the front car, 6496. The stormdoors on these cars are a hazard to passenger safety. They are very hard to open, especially those on the outsides of the cars leading in! While I understand why they might want to make it hard for someone to open the door to get out, once they open the door, at least make getting back into the next car easy! I didn't see any signs of the Redbird on our trip down and decided to take a chance of the Redbird being late at the Bridge. Got there, none of the 6 crews knew what I wanted when I asked if the Redbird was running (they all directed me to the 5 train across the platform), and after 15 minutes, decided if it was running, I had missed it. During all this, I did see an R142A 4 train on the southbound express, destination signs saying this:
4 CROWN HTS - UTICA
4 LEXINGTON AV EXP
4 BROOKLYN EXPRESS
Figured I would take the express to 125th, see if I passed anything, then if need be, get an express up to Parkchester. R142 6780 got me up to 125th (the woman does the transfer announcements there whereas Charlie does them on the 6 and the M60 is a connection, not a transfer. Also, the changing voices between the women are a pain) and R142A 7281 lumbered its way up the Pelham "Express". I would just call it the local train not making any stops. All this time, I was looking for any sign of equipment off the 5 and still saw none. Decided to wait around at Parkchester. Brilliant person that I am, I decide to wait on the NB platform and observe the southbound. Should have done it the other way round, since eventually a train of R142s arrived. I ran over and got some not so great pics but it would have been better if I was on the SB to begin with. The consist was 6361-6365 and 6440-6436. The signs were not reset until we got to Soundview Avenue and according to the strip maps, we were a 5 train from Eastchester Avenue to Sterling Street. The announcements were all correct. At 86th, I tried to hop an express to beat it to GC and get pics there and somehow missed. Of course, I didn't realize this until I saw the R142s coming back in on the uptown platform! Ran over, got on, and got pics when I got off at 77th, but still wasn't too happy about all this, especially since I had wanted a Redbird, not an R142. The fact it was an R142 instead of the usual R142A was good enough, but a Redbird would have been nicer.
Part 5 when I get the chance about the trip home, pictures should be online by Wednesday midday.
There's no need to use the 6 underpass at 59th to get to the BMT platform. Yes, I know, the signs direct you that way. They're wrong. I've been fooled there too. Just go to the north end of the platform and go downstairs.
The CPW express only saves 3 minutes normally, and with the track work at 86th it's probably closer to 1-2. There are 8-car boards at the express stations (the C is rerouted to the express quite often); it's 6th Avenue that doesn't have them, which caused some confusion during a two-weekend GO a few months ago.
The storm doors aren't deliberately a pain. Apparently ADA requires that they be wide enough for wheelchair passage, and the only way to accomplish that on an IRT-width car is with double doors. I agree that they're a safety hazard.
There is an easy way to identify the mystery 6 train at Brooklyn Bridge: it first enters the SB local track from the south, coming off the spur track, before changing ends and looping to the NB track.
I was somewhat surprised by the signs but since I don't use the complex that often, I just did what they told me.
I also knew the CPW express wasn't really that much faster but I was still a little surprised.
As for the ADA thing, I have already stated my displeasure with the double door, I am saying the fact the handles essentially stick is the unsafe part. This problem seems to be worse on the outside of the car, meaning once you open and are standing on the platform between cars, you could have trouble getting into the next car.
I didn't get there early enough to see it come out of the loop but even so, I didn't see anything abnormal. I would notice a set of R142s on the 6 as soon as I saw the unit numbers, which I was keeping track of to know which trains I had already seen when I got up to Parkchester.
As usual, my return trip home was nothing too exciting. I got R142A 7374 (9th car) to 51st where I caught the E to Penn. While waiting for the E, a V came and I would say it was about half full. Most seats were taken and there were some standees, but as usual, the E was packed. If Roosevelt Avenue were built like Penn Station, with an island platform for the expresses and side platforms for the locals, would so many people transfer from the R and V to the E and F? My E train was 3542, which still had the old style roll signs which anyone could turn.
The Acela Express was with Trainset 1 (2004-2018). I was in the Quiet Car, as usual. It was a very nice ride. I must say, the Quiet car is an easy way to ensure you will have a car to yourself. We never had more than 10 people in the car at a given time and when we arrived in Washington, there was only myself and two other people. Naturally, we had two people start conversations on their phones without realizing where they were and then were informed of their location. I wonder if the LED at the end of the car can be programmed to have a message like this:
This is the
QUIET CAR
Please refrain from
Cell Phone use
Loud Conversation
and the use of
Electronics that
make Loud Noise
Got to Union Station, got on the Metro on an unidentified Breda car (I didn't write down the number) and went home.
Now, I am pleased to announce that the pictures taken on this trip are now on my website! Feel free to check them out at www.orenstransitpage.com. Hard to believe but I did an image count and I have 1166 pictures on my website. Quite an increase from the 294 I started with almost two years ago. I will be leaving town again on Wednesday night and will come back with plenty of new adventures to report on.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
Webmaster of Oren's Transit Page
www.orenstransitpage.com
I saw a Delta commercial, that had a advertisement on the Acela & the Delta, it showed a model of the Acela rolling slowly and the Delta plane flying right above very fast. And at the end it said that Planes are faster than planes, If you ask me, planes maybe faster but the Acela gets you there with better service and is much more enjoyable ride. Has anyone else seen this commercial?
but the Acela gets you there with better service and is much more enjoyable ride
Thats not true. Acela terminals don't have shopping facilities like they do in airports, Acela terminals don't have car hire or hotel, Acela seats are uncomfortable and Acelas break down frequently. Acela dont give you anything to eat on board and you have to walk to the cafe car instead of having them bring stuff to you. Anyways planes are faster and they are just so much better
"Acela seats are uncomfortable"
Maybe this is a matter of opinion, but I found their seats to be quite comfortable; much roomier than coach class on an airplane (granted you do pay for business class). -Nick
"Acela dont give you anything to eat on board and you have to walk to the cafe car instead of having them bring stuff to you."
Airlines are giving up on food. I just spent 12 hours on planes last week (LGA-MSP-Calgary and return on NW) and got enough total food to feed my cat one decent meal (1 granola bar and 1 pretzel bag per leg).
"Anyways planes are faster and they are just so much better "
All depends on the trip. As I've mentioned, I live in Manhattan, 25 min from NYP. If I were going to somewhere easy to reach from New Carrolton, I'd take the train. It would be quicker and less hassle. If I were going to somewhere in suburban VA that required a rental car, I'd fly, because the hassle of renting a car at an Amtrak station and fighting the traffic into VA wouldn't be worth it.
Airlines are giving up on food. I just spent 12 hours on planes last week (LGA-MSP-Calgary and return on NW) and got enough total food to feed my cat one decent meal (1 granola bar and 1 pretzel bag per leg).
Serves U rite for flying NW. American Airlines is my preferred carrier. NW is a hack shop that runs a bunch of fully-depreciated airplanes and doesnt understand cabin service except on their Tokyo flights.
AEM7
"Serves U rite for flying NW."
What can I say? Accumulated frequent flyer miles from endless trips to MSP.
u have relatives in MSP?
i always wondered how NW could make $. MSP and DTW arent exactly america's select cities.
Worked for a company HQ'd there.
MSP is a huge NW hub. You can go between virtually any 2 cities in the country via MSP.
Serves U rite for flying NW. American Airlines is my preferred carrier. NW is a hack shop that runs a bunch of fully-depreciated airplanes and doesnt understand cabin service except on their Tokyo flights.
It's also the most financially sound of all the major carriers (excluding, of course, Southwest, which is a different kettle of fish). They're obviously doing something right.
Ha! American Airlines, you like that Fude that AA gives out? And crappy A300s that lose various essential flight controls in flight? Don't get me wrong, Acela sucks too, but when something goes catestrophically wrong, I'd rather be 150mph on the ground than 400mph at 2000'. Damn Airbus's subsidized POSes from G**damn european who haven't turned out a good plane since the FW190! And, to make it worse, the FAA defends the A300! Even though they made the 737 rudder reversals a friggin witch hunt at boeing!
I think I'll take the rest of my mindless ranting elsewhere somewhere else. Does any one know if you need to pay for Airliners.net?
Does any one know if you need to pay for Airliners.net?
It used to be free, but now it's $5 per month. I signed up last October, not long before it closed to additional free registrations. The advantage of the paid "First Class" registration is that you don't get pop-up ads. I'm happy enough with the free registration, however.
By the way, the 300's are the very oldest of the Airbuses (Airbii?), some of them must be pushing 30 by now. There's never been any criticism of any of the newer models ... like the 319 that we'll be taking to Phoenix on Sunday!
Oh yeah, what about the A320 that couldn't decide whether to land or pull out on a flyby at the Paris Airshow??? Yeah sure just what I want, a plane that wants to touchdown when the pilot wants to Go around. Great Idea airtaxi! I hope the A380 is the biggest flop since the concorde. Go Sonic Cruiser! Go Boeing! Seattle's greatest success story ever, period (Micro-who?)!!!
Go Boeing! Seattle's greatest success story ever, period
Except they yanked the corporate HQ out of Seattle and moved it to Chicago.
And if the Osprey project doesn't work out (it's still in evaluation phase) they'll be abandoning Chester County, PA, soon. At least Seattle still has the aircraft factories.
Ha! American Airlines, you like that Fude that AA gives out?
HEY! You're spelling fude my way???
Now don't knock American, they have the cutest hostesses. Who knows that I would met a Miami girl on a GLA-ORD flight? The British Airways ones are all snobs, I've never managed to get one at United to talk to me, and I've never flown Northwest so I don't know what their people are like...
And crappy A300s that lose various essential flight controls in flight?
Those are crap, so that's why you pick a flight that has the 767 LuxuryLiners :-)
As for the A300's being old planes -- they still have not resolved their autopilot problems in the A319's, A340's etc. Basically, just like the French Metro, that thing is automatically controlled. If the computer is toast, you are toast...
AEM7
What auto-pilot problems would you be referring to? I have my own opinions about Airbus, for I work on them daily. Auto-pilot has not been a chronic problem with the A320/319 series. Now back to trains.
What auto-pilot problems would you be referring to?
Like:
Loss of control due to loss of electrical systems (Boeing's flaps are hydraulic)
Inability to deal with "fly around" automatically, leaving the pilot to deal with the situation (Not sure Boeing's model allows this, but at least they don't flash up a message on the screen saying: I can't fly now, you take over)
To be fair, there are pros and cons to each rtype of aircraft control:
Hydraulic: Generally not vulnerable to software glitches, proven technology. Problem: what if a mechanical failure causes hydraulic lines to be cut?
Fly By Wire: Computers/Servos replace hydraulic lines. Use proven in the military (modern fighter jets, B2 bomber, etc. cannot fly without them). Much more responsive system which can also prevent some pilot errors (the highest % of air crashes are due to pilot error). Problem: software bugs can interfere with flight and make an aircraft unstable, esp. if the backup system is ineffective.
Well those military aircraft are purpose designed to be unstable, either to take advantage of a greater manouverablity, like the F-16, or to take advantage of a design that is inheirently unstable, like the B-2. Anybody who, at this point in FBW progress builds an airliner than NEEDs Fly By Wire for stablity is a bigger idiot than the people who thought ACELA would be better with computers for everything. A half-billion dollar plane, two pilots and a million or two dollars worth of bombs is ok, but a 120 million dollar plane and 200+ pax plus 10 or so crew is not, you do not screw with passenger airliners until it is proven, FBW of the type used in military aircraft are not.
I don't think it's quite as black and white as you make it. Large airliners without FBW systems need hydraulics in order to actuate the control surfaces. If hydraulic lines leak or break, the entire airplane is in danger. The only exception, I believe, is one model of MD-80 which could actually work with mechanical linkages.
You are correct that FBW in military aircraft is related to inherent instability. However, your point about computers really isn't supportable. While a particular Airbus model may have had a problem, mission-critical systems have proven their reliability over and over again.
Thus, there is nothing inherently wrong with loading Acela with computers - in fact, properly done, a FBW vehiicle (train or anything else) will be more reliable and safer than its counterpart.
The problem is Alstom's deficiency in testing software, not the decision to use software.
Case in point: Every time a Seawolf-class submarine goes to sea (crew of 100), it relies on a billion lines of software code to make it safely home (again, 100 people on board).
Acela doesn't have nearly as much code to run. There's no reason, other than the manufacturer's negligence, that it can't work right.
I think that planes with Hydraulic Control systems also made use of cable control systems. I seems to remember from a Discovery Channel Program on the Sioux City IA DC10 crash that not only were both of the hydraulic pipes that ran beside the turbine cut, but the third string backup control cables were cut as well. That plane had triple redundant systems, and managed to do it with Hydrualics. Of course in the end the plane still wound up hitting the ground wrong, and the cartwheeling wreck resulted.
Airbus's problems with FBW will not stop until they adopt the Boeing method of Pilot-Plane integration. Pilots are not systems operators, in most cases they are more akin to a racecar-driver than a plant operator, even though the beast they operate may appear more a modern industrial plant. They need to feel the craft in their hands, feel how the plane's ailerons respond to movements, so that they can assess how the plane will be flying. Most pilots probably don't even realize that they do it, they've done it so many times before, but the first time you hold the Yoke, and you feel the plane slightly resist your back-pressure, that feeling is magical, indescribable, almost sexual, at that moment, you know that you command the airplane at a speed that most cars and trains can only dream of.
But Airbus's FBW planes cancel all that out, they treat the pilot as a systems operator, and there is no feedback from the elevators to the pilot to give the pilot anything like that feeling, just like pulling back on your old Non force feedback joystick, all the feeling is gone. My issue is not against FBW, it's against Airbus's integration of FBW into planes.
Boeing did it different, possibly being more of a pilot-plane maker (hey how many A300's got rolled on their first flights), they incorperated a force feedback into the 777 FBW system so that the pilot gets the sensation that his motions are being transmitted just like the Hydraulic systems he just left, most pilots report that they would rather fly a 777 than a A330, in fact, I think there was a minor stink when USair went for the A330s, cause the pilots and Pilots unions didn't like 'em.
To me, computers are the crutch of an unimaginative engineer, you can either hire a computer-type engineer to go and install some godforsaken piece of electronic wizardry, which may or may not work, or you can hire a Mechanical engineer and have a solution which may very well be lighter, cheaper, and undoubtedly less power consuming than if you had gone with the computer engineer. Case in point, the Talgo, if given the right power cars, it could do nearly everything an acela could do, but it does it without computers, relying instead on simple engineering solutions to it's problem.
And yes, you could have a plane or train with an FBW or OBW system on par with the best mechanical linkages systems in the world, but what would be the point? You'd spend millions of dollars to ensure that a bunch of software engineers are well employed for the next 10 or so years, and all to eleminate a small amount of piping. And once you have such a system, why even bother with a pilot, with a computer system that good, a man in the loop is just a wasted .25 seconds in an emergency. So you eleminate the pilot, but how many people want to fly on a pilotless plane, at the current state of computers, who would entrust their life to a computer for upwards of 2 hours? I know I wouldn't, seeing as how my computer crashed twice while writing this. Maybe someday, but someday, not now.
I actually didn't know that the Seawolf had made it clear of the berths at Groton yet, thought they still had some software bugs to work out. But each and every man knew what they were getting into when they VOLUNTEERED for the military first, the Navy second, and then the submarine force third. It's called occupational hazards, and while the cost of a 1.5 billion dollar sub plus 100 finely trained men and 50 weapons each about 1-2 million dollars is a major loss, possibly more than a 500pax airliner (ahem A380isacompleteandutterwhiteelephant,dieairbus! AHEM!) that suddenly decides to head for the ground, the difference is that each of those men knew that they were entrusting their lives to a computer system, as upposed to the family visiting Japan for vacation, taking advantage of the 'New Great Rates thanks to our 500 passenger planes!'.
With out artificial feel units in large commercial aircraft the pilots would not feel a thing, so to speak. While I actually have not flown the aircraft, I have flown an Airbus simulator and a Boeing aircraft simulator and it`s all relative. The both feel quite real. As for FBW we have not had an large amount of problems with this type of system, and the system has redundanies built into it, inclusive of an emergency generator powered by a Ram Air Turbine. The weight saving is subtantial which in turn saves on fuel with the FBW system. But enough of this, let`s talk trains and blessing cabs.
You wrote a great post, and I agree with a lot of what you say. I completely agree with you regarding Pilot-Plane Integration. The point about sticck-feedback is an excellent one. General Dynamics' original joystick on the F-16 was a force-sensor type only; the company put in a graded feedback loop at the insistence of Air Force pilots.
The operational advantages of FBW and computers, when done properly and following the principles you correctly identified above, are:
1) Reduction in operating costs: Computers replaced the flight engineer, meaning they perform fuel-balancing and other tasks, and do it as well as the engineer can. Proof: All 717, 737,747,757,767,777 and Airbus aircrafdt are now "two man" cockpits. Computers also calculate optimal engine settings for different phases in flight. There were bugs with this early on: an Airbus A300 crashed while on final approach to an airport because its software incorrectly mixed fuel and air at idle and caused the engines to quit. This happened one time, many years ago and the problem has not recurred.
2) Reduction in pilot error. Pilots have been known to take an airplane out outside its envelope. This is as true of commercial airplanes as it is in fighter aircraft. The computer can, within reason, help prevent certain categories of errors (but not others).
3) Reduction in information overload - if you look at the dials, switches, gauges, etc. the first thing you realize is that, in most cases, and especially in an emergency, you don't need 80% of the information the airplane is giving you. The result is that both Beoing and Airbus, in their new "glass cockpits" have nested menus which only being up what you need, when you need it. This takes a lot of tweaking - and it's important that pilots (or train engineers on the Acela) have input into this.
Case in point (from the military) - An F-4 pilot, in the 1960's, in combat over North Vietnam was maneuvering hard, checking instruments, dropping a bomb, and trying to avoid a surface to air missile (he did so). When reviewing the tapes of his radio calls, the Air Force noted that an early-warning radar aircraft (EC-121, "Disco" the forerunner of today's AWAC) had broadcast a warning of a bandit (enemy aircraft) approaching him. The pilot didn't recall hearing the warning. Nothing happened; the enemy MiG was either diverted, shot down by somebody else, or ?? (don't remember), but he was so overloaded with information, he couldn't process it.
Hence the introduction of tools and procedures to deal with that. If they can help on airplanes, they can help on trains too.
---------
Note on mechanical linkages: I read your paragraph on the DC-10 crash: while on an MD-80 a simple mechanical linkage can work, I find it unlikely that such a system can multiply force enough to move control surfaces on a much larger aircraft. After all, the hydraulics on an airplane are "power steering" needed because otherwise, unless you were Conan the Barbarian, you couldn't get the ailerons and elevator to move by yourself. So, on the DC-10, once your primary and backup hydraulic systems are gone, the only thing left is to try to land the airplane by using differential thrust from engines. This was actually done a couple of times: a B-52 bomber with its tail shot off by MiGs actually landed safely. It had a hell of a pilot!
The airline has to be certified for CATIII or CATIV for these type of activities, which my airline is not. And to my knowledge, we have not had any uncommanded flap movements. I being akin to the old crusty RCI am one of the senior aircraft inspectors and would be involved in anomalies of this type. Now back to trains.
AA has cut back significantly on food as well. No meals on flights less than 3.5 hours. Just a "snack".
To get this back to close to the topic, AA will be entering the Shuttle wars from LGA next month with 8 flights a day from LGA to Boston. Round trip fare of about $400. More competition for Acela Exp.
CG
To get this back to close to the topic, AA will be entering the Shuttle wars from LGA next month with 8 flights a day from LGA to Boston. Round trip fare of about $400. More competition for Acela Exp.
I just can't figure that out. Are the management people at American in a daze or something? Acela's been gobbling market share from DL and US on the shuttle routes. Why start another air shuttle? Makes no sense.
I just can't figure that out. Are the management people at American in a daze or something? Acela's been gobbling market share from DL and US on the shuttle routes. Why start another air shuttle? Makes no sense.
(1) US Air is about to go under. AA wants to help it on its way.
(2) Delta has inefficient 737s and 757s on that run. AA wants to replace it with RJ's.
Look. The logic is totally a no brainer. DL can't swap out their fleet for RJ's that fast. Decrease ridership means RJ's will attain higher load factors. AA Eagle will win out on cost grounds alone. Either DL or US Air will withdrawal from that market. I think it will be US Air, when they go bankrupt -- either that or AA will pull out because it can't afford to bleed US Air dry.
It's a dirty business out there.
AEM7
I haven't been following this at all, but if US Air goes under, who's going to serve all the little airports upstate (and there are lots of them) that are only served by US Air currently? Will they close entirely?
The airport serving Utica just closed recently because even US Air didn't want to fly there any more.
In this day of deregulation there is no inalienable right to air service.
The most profitable locations (if any) will be taken by someone else; the rest of the folks will have to take the bus or drive to a bigger city such as Albany, Rochester, or Buffalo (unless they happen to live near an Amtrak station).
The little airports upstate do not deserve airports.
Air has immense economies of consolidation -- in a circular fashion. Rail has the same economies in a linear fashion (i.e. it's sensible to hit all the towns along one railroad with just one train).
The little towns in upstate grew up around New York Central, and aren't designed in such a way as to be economically efficiently served by air. On the other hand, witness the Sunbelt cities. Almost all of them are clustered around in a CIRCLE and not ALONG A LINE. Because they grew up with Southwest.
The solution for New York State is for the state DOT --NOT Amtrak-- to pour in money and rehab the NYC corridor for true high speed rail. JetBlue serves the upstate, but they'll at most add a few flights a day if US Air goes under.
AEM7
The little towns in upstate grew up around New York Central, and aren't designed in such a way as to be economically efficiently served by air. On the other hand, witness the Sunbelt cities. Almost all of them are clustered around in a CIRCLE and not ALONG A LINE. Because they grew up with Southwest.
What are you talking about? Southwest Airlines has been in existence for only 30 years, and a major carrier for only about half that time. These "Sunbelt cities" to which you refer (examples please) were around before that.
By the way, the real spur to the development of most Upstate cities was the Erie Canal, not the New York Central.
The solution for New York State is for the state DOT --NOT Amtrak-- to pour in money and rehab the NYC corridor for true high speed rail. JetBlue serves the upstate, but they'll at most add a few flights a day if US Air goes under.
New York State was a big proponent of JetBlue. The airline was able to get slots at JFK in return for providing more service to Upstate, which for the most part had been effectively held hostage by USAirways' exhorbitant fares.
I do agree that JetBlue probably wouldn't do much expansion Upstate even if USAirways fails, as they seem more interested in building up transcontinental and Florida service, and developing new hubs at IAD and LGB.
Looking at a US Airways map, they fly to (along with bigger cities) Massena, Ogdensburg, Watertown, Jamestown, Elmira, Ithaca, and Binghamton, NY.
JetBlue only flies to Syracuse, Rochester, and Buffalo (which of course US Airways also flies to).
It's definitely hard to imagine Jet Blue picking up any of those US Airways cities except possibly Binghamton because it's a regional center serving an area of moderate density.
I'm amazed US Airways still serves the three towns in the far north. There just aren't that many people living up there.
I'm sure someone else will step in and serve Ithaca, perhaps Northwest. There are lots of Cornell students who have no other reasonable way to travel -- bus service is largely only along the NYC-Ithaca-Buffalo corridor, and the nearest train station is an hour away in Syracuse. And unlike most upstate residents, lots of students don't have cars, so they really do need to fly. There may not be enough demand for two airlines but I can't believe there isn't demand for one. If push comes to shove, Cornell will subsidize flights.
Maybe because of Cornell Ithaca makes better sense as a regional center than Binghamton even though it's a smaller town.
Another possibility might be that Ithaca only has flights at times when students travel. After all, the airport won't close; there's still general aviation in any case.
Right now, Binghamton gets served by US Air, Northwest and United. Elmira by Northwest and US Air and Ithaca by US Air only.
Ithaca's a college town about an hour or so from Syracuse. I'd guess that if US Air went down we'd see the end of commercial flights into Ithaca. It's just too close to the other three cities.
It's important to realize, though that these cities are not actually served by US Air but actually by a private airline (US Airways Express?) which is locally owned. The private airline reaches an agreement with a major carrier to purchase and then re-sell 100% of the seats. The private can then focus on the cost of operations because their revenue is known, and the major carrier (theoretically) makes a profit on the over-ride -- provided they can sell enough seats to the public.
For that reason, there may be no or few changes at all. Another carrier might just contract with US Airways Express to rename themselves "Continental Northeast" and fly all their flights into Newark and Cleveland instead of Philly and Pittsburgh.
CG
(1) US Air is about to go under. AA wants to help it on its way.
(2) Delta has inefficient 737s and 757s on that run. AA wants to replace it with RJ's.
Look. The logic is totally a no brainer. DL can't swap out their fleet for RJ's that fast. Decrease ridership means RJ's will attain higher load factors. AA Eagle will win out on cost grounds alone. Either DL or US Air will withdrawal from that market. I think it will be US Air, when they go bankrupt -- either that or AA will pull out because it can't afford to bleed US Air dry.
Both DL's and US's aircraft have more room than do AA's "jungle jets." In addition, DL benefits mightily by its dedicated (i.e. no lines) shuttle terminal at LGA. It has been speculated that AA considers the plan workable because of all the people in the NYC area who have their frequent-flyer miles from AA, but that's just speculation.
My point is that AA is ratcheting up competition in a declining market. Acela is gradually becoming the transportation mode of choice in the Washington-New York-Boston corridor. The airlines are, in effect, fighting over scraps in a declining market. That's silly.
fighting over scraps in a declining market. That's silly.
No it's not. The market will have declined to a level when it's not worth fighting over in 10 years -- when AA's RJ fleet is ready for scrapping anyway. Matching asset life to market life is beautiful...
AA is making a huge push into New York. Witness the Terminal 8/9 construction at JFK. I'm sure AA would love to pick up huge chunks of US Air -- especially their dominant position at LGA. They just don't have the cash to do it right now.
If they can swing the purchase/acquisition/merger of US Air, they'll be so dominant in New York that they'll be able to strongarm the PA into building the extension of the AirTrain from Jamaica to LGA.
It's a great plan, except for the little problem of having enough cash.
CG
"Why start another air shuttle? Makes no sense."
There has long been a market for 2 air shuttles, plus train (plus bus, but that's a low end market that probably doesn't compete with either train or plane).
If AA mgt thinks that one of the competitors is in trouble (either Amtrak or US Air) and may not as effective a competitor in a year, now is the time to make the move, and be well established when the contemplated trouble becomes evident to consumers.
As far as Amtrak taking more of the market, as I have pointed out in other postings, there are numerous suburban-to-suburban (and even city-to-suburban) trips where plane is just much quicker than plane in good weather. In particular, from NYC or its suburbs to north or northwest of Boston, or to the VA suburbs, is NOT handled well by the train right now.
It's going to be a long time (relative to the time frames a company like AA thinks in) before Amtrak can reliably shave another half hour off NYP-Wash and another hour off NYP-BOS and give the airlines a hard time on many of these trips.
"where plane is just much quicker than plane"
Meant to say "quicker than train"
Well, perhaps alien species such as yourself enjoy coach-class airline seats more than the rest of us.
"Acela terminals don't have shopping facilities like they do in airports,"
I'll take South Station over Logan. And with Penn Station being where it is, who needs the overpriced garbage you can be ripped off for at La Guardia?
"Acela terminals don't have car hire or hotel, "
How many hotels are within a few minutes' walk, subway or cab ride of Penn Station? How many hotels (good ones, not flophouses) are within a few minutes walk of La Guardia?
Again, South Street wins over Logan without even trying.
The only reason you posted that was to look foolish. Congratulations...
Maybe you should join a Plane site. And who is talking about Acela Terminals?????? Those seats are very comfortable.
true... even if they are very problematic... the acela trainsets are SO comfortable!!!!! as well as the stations! Also, what good is at seat food, if you throw it up in 5 minutes, Mcdonalds is 10X better and cheaper(and with how mcdonalds has become, that says alot!)and Acela is 100X better! It you want comfort fly British airways first class, although it must cost like 1,000,000$
In First Class, The attendant comes to you with the food, correct?
Yes, I went First Class on Saturday and will post details later but most people go in Business Class and First is not by any means economical.
>>Thats not true. Acela terminals don't have shopping facilities like they do in airports<<
Thats not true. I've been to Acela terminals and I saw shopping facilities all around.
>>Acela terminals don't have car hire or hotel,<<
Trust me you can call a cab from an Acela terminal and I'm sure that cab driver would happily take you to a Hertz facility. As for the hotel, I think Amtrak would assume you made those travel arrangements beforehand.
>>Acela dont give you anything to eat on board and you have to walk to the cafe car instead of having them bring stuff to you<<
On a plane standing up would be the last thing you want to do. As for the cafe thing If your to lazy to walk a few cars down then dont take the train!
Trust me you can call a cab from an Acela terminal and I'm sure that cab driver would happily take you to a Hertz facility
At Penn Station, the Hertz facility is in the Penn Plaza complex, so no cab ride needed. At Boston and DC, Hertz will reimburse you for the cab ride going to/from the train station. And for all three cities I believe you can reserve the rental car through Amtrak (at least on the phone), thanks to the Amtrak-Hertz partnership.
The air shuttles are very efficient operations, and I appreciate the attempt at food service (they serve very little food, but how much can you eat in the 20 minutes that you're actually allowed to use the tray tables?) as well as the free magazines in the gate areas. Their check-in process is generally very quick. On good days, they beat the Acela Express hands down, even between city centers. However, the shuttles are unreliable in bad weather and significantly more expensive if you don't want to conform to their off-peak discount fare rules. Also, you have to allow more extra time for possible traffic jams and/or transit disruptions when getting to/from the airports (vs. the train stations), so it's rare to ever get the ideal city-to-city travel times on the shuttles.
"On good days, they beat the Acela Express hands down, even between city centers."
On perfect days (for the airline) they might beat the train, but it's not "hands down" by any means; otherwise it's a rough draw. If the airliner gets held up on the runway or taxiway (more common than not at LGA, for example), the train wins, hands down.
Mmmm, I should mention that I was thinking of the NY-Boston part.
A good trip on the air shuttles can be over an hour faster than Acela Express going between Manhattan and downtown Boston (1 hour between Manhattan and LGA, 1 hour flight time, 30 minutes between Logan and Boston, vs. 3.5 hours on the train plus maybe 15-20 minutes to get to/from the train stations on each end). Even running into traffic near the airports that's a pretty big time advantage to overcome. Of course, sometimes all the shuttle flights for the rest of the evening are cancelled because of weather, so on bad days the air shuttles can be really bad.
NY-DC is a different situation, because the train is under 3 hours there, bringing it very close to the "ideal" air shuttle times.
I have not seen the commercial, but you are right that planes are faster. As for a better ride, certainly as a railfan I appreciate Acela Express very much. But for the average commuter, time is the essence. The only benefits with Acela Express is that you can use your laptop and cell phone at anytime. -Nick
And as Todd Glickman says, it is "weatherproof". I heard an ad for Delta on WCBS this past weekend and it said "under normal atmospheric conditions". When I took the train to New York, there was lightning and thunder and there were people on board my train car who were going to fly. I will not deny that planes are faster than trains. The only problem is that planes are subject to be delayed by weather, security, and a variety of other things. Remember the train vs. plane races the newspapers did when Acela started? On the clear days, the plane won considerably, but just a few clouds in the sky and the plane still won, but not by much.
Yeah, AE would definitely beat Delta (and other airlines) when it comes to weather. I should know, I had to sit in a few airports for several hours due to stormy weather on two occasions during my recent vacation. -Nick
DAMN!! My Acela has most the advantages over Airlines.
I'd take the Delta Shuttle. It may be a hassle getting to/from the airport but I think it's worth it - especially on the DC end. Union Station is very nice, but DCA is also just as good and it's very close to downtown.
Wayne
"I'd take the Delta Shuttle. It may be a hassle getting to/from the airport but I think it's worth it - especially on the DC end. Union Station is very nice, but DCA is also just as good and it's very close to downtown."
True, as long as you're not delayed on the runway or taxiing to the gate (which if it isn't a problem at Reagan is certainly a problem at LGA). And you'll pay more for the privilege of flying.
Wayne
DCA isn't all that hard to get to but LGA is. No subway, the bus takes quite some time, and the cabs are expensive.
That depends on where you're coming from.
If you're coming from Brooklyn or Queens in a non-subway zone, then taking a cab is the only way to go and thus LGA is more convenient.
I have not seen the commercial, but I know it is an ad on top of taxis here in Washington DC. The tagline is "NON-STOP PLANE...OR FOUR-STOP TRAIN?"
I think the fact that these commercials exist suggests that Delta is losing business to Acela. Acela may not be a complete success, but it shows that Delta at least considers it a competitor to be taken seriously.
Personally, I prefer to ride the train. The fact that I CAN easily walk to get my own food instead of having to stay wedged into my sardine seat for the better part of the trip is one of the reasons why. Also, for short trips, once time travelling to airports, check-in, and security, are taken into account, air travel lose some of their time advantage. I also don't like the air pressure changes of flying.
Different people have different preferences, so if someone else prefers to fly, that's perceftly alright, but I'd rather take a train.
We had several threads going (don't get me wrong) about this before and in fact, the advertisements I've seen about the Delta on the NEC resembled a small acela train on the bottom and a Delta tag on the bottom right.
If you have checked my posts and others' posts, they have voiced what they thought about Delta's service, scheduling, and fares.
It seems like when I post something interesting and the thread goes away, you post on the same topic. Second strike after 42nd St, / Port Authority.
BTW check the older thread to prevent "reiterations" in such a short amount of time.
I Know The LI Is for the Long Island Rail Road & SBK For MTA South Brooklyn RR But what are the marks for:
Metro North
Staten Island Rapid Transit
New York & Atlantic
PATH (Hudson Tubes)
New York City Subway
Brooklyn Manhattan Transit
Brooklyn Rapid Transit
The Independent (IND)
Interboro Rapid Transit
New York City Subway
Brooklyn Manhattan Transit
Brooklyn Rapid Transit
The Independent (IND)
Interboro Rapid Transit
These are not railroads so they have nothing to do w/ the FRA.
Metro North = MNCW
Staten Island Rapid Transit = SIR
New York & Atlantic = NYA
I don't think PATH has one either.
The big list is at http://www.trainscan.com/data/mark/mark_n.html
Metro North = FURX
Staten Island Rapid Transit = RTTX
New York & Atlantic = FURX
PATH (Hudson Tubes) = GATX
New York City Subway = GATX
Brooklyn Manhattan Transit = FURX
Brooklyn Rapid Transit = UTCX
The Independent (IND) = GECX
Interboro Rapid Transit = LCEX
Wow, if you don't have the answers, make 'em up!
-Hank
heh. You don't get it, do you? With the amount of debt that MTA has, the stock may as well be owned by banks...
AEM7
LI is Long Island Rail Road
MNCW is Metro North
NYA is New York & Atlantic
SIRR was for the Staten Island Rail Road
The subway lines were never real railroads, so they didn't have reporting marks.
If PATH had marks, they would likely be PATH, or legacy marks HM, for Hudson and Manhattan. Although PATH is under FRA rules, their cars are not interchanged, so they don't need reporting marks.
-Hank
The Staten Island Railroad is just SIR. The Long Island Rail Road is the only Railroad in the country that spells Railroad "Rail Road".
Wrong!!! The Strasburg is The Strasburg Rail Road Company. Oldest operating railroad in the country, now that B&O is no more.
Name aside, the LIRR is the oldest Railroad still operating under its original charter. I think it dates to 1835. The LIRR was one of the first 7 railroads in the country. Long before the Phidelphia and Columbia was even built to connect to the Strassburg.
What is the maximum number of engines that can be put on a Amtrak Trainset? And What is the maximum allowed cars on a amtrak trainset? Thanks!
-AcelaExpress2005
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
30 cars
no limit on engines that im aware of
practical limit is 4
Here is my view, as a conductor who, daily, deals with the public, especially a public with the varying attitudes posessed by NY'ers, whenever I am confronted with people holding doors, I get on the PA system (and anyone on here who knows me and has worked with me can attest), I say (believe it or not, only those who know do know the truth) very nicely "Ladies and gentilemen, please stand clear of the closing doors!!". And here's the shocker as a result of this, the people actually respond very well to my nice approach. I haven't yet got a person whom hasn't complimented me on my kindness, and even given me praises for being nice like that, and that others (conductors) should be this way. It makes for no confrontations, no people holding up my doors out of spite, because often I have seen people on trains I been riding on hold the doors intentionally just to piss the guy/girl off!! Not everyone screams, yells, and acts foolish on the PA system. I use my nice approach, and it works, and the people respect me for it, rather than be pissed and try to assault me for being loud & rude!! More conductors oughta try the nicer approach....you'll be surprised to find how people can respect you for it, and show the respect by complying.
I haven't heard a Conductor's voice in such a long time....
Glad to hear you get uniformly good results!
I maybe nieve but can the MTA make the R train terminate at Queens Plaza and extend the G to Union Turnpike.
Not possible. There is no longer a relay track beyond Queens Plaza to turn the train around. Remember, the 63 St Connector is nearby.
Not desireable, either. A lot more passengers at local stops are going to Manhattan than to Greenpoint and beyond.
I thought the relay track was put back after construction??
The old tower at now has a sign on the door "RTO Supervison".
Why? The R is far more useful.
no, i find the G more packed in Court Sq than the R at Qns Plza, but turnin the R at Qns Plza isnt possible since it will cause congestion on the E/V, with the R changin to exp, the V changin to local, CHAOS i tell ya...
no, i find the G more packed in Court Sq than the R at Qns Plza, but turnin the R at Qns Plza isnt possible since it will cause congestion on the E/V, with the R changin to exp, the V changin to local, CHAOS i tell ya.....
That's because most G riders need to transfer to other trains at Court Sq. to get into Manhattan. That's why the G served little or no purpose when it ran on the Queens IND. People are much better off with the current V/R setup.
Here's a interesting story on the Acela Problems.
"Both sides agree that equipment problems have marred Acela’s on-time performance along Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor.
But the builder of the high-speed trains, Bombardier, blamed the problems on Amtrak’s insistence the trainsets be built to specifications the railroad wanted instead of what the Canadian manufacturer told Amtrak it needed.
Amtrak President David L. Gunn told the Washington Post this week that Amtrak will never order another Acela Express because of continuing breakdowns that reached a peak in July. During the past month, Acela averaged one cancellation or en-route breakdown for mechanical reasons every day. The train also has the worst on-time record of any Northeast Corridor train.
"The train is causing us a lot of trouble," Gunn told the Post. He said future high-speed trains, if there is such a thing for Amtrak, would more likely be a modified version of some already successful European high-speed train.
Not so fast, said a press release from Bombardier Transportation’s headquarters in Montreal. The company claimed the breakdown and technical glitches came from Amtrak’s request for new and more complex designs than those recommended by Bombardier.
“The reported freeze-up of the braking system is attributable to the customer’s request for a new design,” read the release. “Throughout the project, Bombardier recommended a different brake system than the one the customer insisted upon. Bombardier repeatedly warned Amtrak, both before and after the contract was awarded, that its desired system is more prone to revert to its fail-safe conditions because of its increased complexity.”
Gunn’s claim that the trains are “vastly overpowered” is “a direct result of the customer’s specifications,” according to Wednesday’s statement. “In fact during negotiations leading up to the contracted, Bombardier had repeatedly suggested that one power car per trainset was sufficient.”
The blame game even extended to toilet door latches, which Gunn complained would stick and trap passengers inside. "You'd think that after 170 years of railroading, you could have a crapper door that works," Gunn said.
The door would work, Bombardier claimed, if Amtrak hadn’t insisted on a new sophisticated door design that included a mechanism the company warned would either lock the door in the open position or prevent passengers from opening it when they were on the wrong side, wrong in this case depending on the passenger’s need. “The customer nonetheless insisted on this new design.”
This isn’t the fist spat between Amtrak and Bombardier. Bombardier sued Amtrak in November of 2001 claiming the railroad disrupted its ability to deliver the Acela trainsets on time. The suit aimed to recover additional costs and penalities for late delivery. The 20th trainset has yet to be delivered, and may never arrive as its cannibalized for parts.
Wednesday’s press release, however, did make a point that these issues arose with “the administration at the time” the contracts were negotiated. Gunn took over at Amtrak earlier this year."
Oh , whatever, typical Bombsuckier crap!
It's like I mentioned a few days ago. Try driving the Acela on the Microsoft Train Simulator. Same problems as the real one. At least Bill Gates gives you the option to exit and retry. You would be TOAST if you left an in-service Acela train to start again.
I have MSTS also, Most of the time I run in explore mode with the derailments off at full speed.
Try running Acela at full speed, then slam on the emergency brake. After recharging the brakes and train, try to move the train. It runs pretty sluggish and really doesn't (Acela)rate. Majority of the time, I use the Dash40 or the 2000 & 7000 Series from the Tokyo-Hakone fleet on the NEC. BTW, any chance of an updated version of the MSTS with an NEC extension to NY and/or Boston? Also if Metro-North and NJT have a similar SIM program I could purchase? THANKS.
i wanna know when/if developers will create NYC subway routes (BVE sucks) for MSTS or similar programs.
I'm still waiting for it. They do have the CTA el system with el lines and a quick tunnel ride. You may want to try it out.
I seriously hope there's an internal investigation on this. If Bombardier is lying and trying to use the old incompetant Amtrak administration as scapegoats, that's just pathetic.
On the other hand, if it can be proven that Acela's problems were known and warned about by Bombardier and the previous Amtrak administration refused to acknowledge it, then that goes to show that Amtrak was under horrible hands before.
In either case, a manufacturer has a responsibility to make working things. You don't knowingly make something faulty and then say "well they wanted it this way!" Make products that you can stick by and be proud to put your name on, and stick by them. Nobody's forced to make trash, this is America, not 70's USSR. Get it right Bombardier.
I seriously hope there's an internal investigation on this. If Bombardier is lying and trying to use the old incompetant Amtrak administration as scapegoats, that's just pathetic.
I think that Amtrak does have a share of blame, especially in relation to the electrics. It would not surprise me if Amtrak didn't really know ever quirk of the PRR infrastructure they inherited. The guys who designed them and the guys who maintained them are all dead! There's lots of things with those power supplies that Amtrak's electrical engineers just can't figure out.
On the other hand, brakes freezing up, software not working, "square wheels", etc are almost entirely Bombardier's fault. This is the sort of thing they would have caught if they had bothered to build a prototype, or had designers of higher calibre working on the project.
In either case, a manufacturer has a responsibility to make working things.
I agree entirely. If Amtrak was really telling them to do something unwise, they could have thrown their hands up and said "We're not building it that way".
I saw this medallion up for bids on eBay and it prompted a few questions:
Click here to view
I heard the term used a long time ago but was never really clear as to what it was
1. What was(is) the BMT Holy Name Society - does it still exist?
2. Why would a medallion carry both the NYCTA and BMT names and be date stamped 1936 - was that the year this society was founded?
I would appreciate anything anyone can tell about this group
Thanks.
The Holy Name Society was a Catholic layperson's organization. I don't know if it's still around.
Presumably, the BMT Holy Name Society was a chapter of the organization comprised of BMT employees - remember that the BMT was noted for having many employees of Italian descent, most of whom would have been Catholic.
I would imagine that the 1936 date is, as you suggested, the group's founding date. At least that's the only explanation that seems to make sense.
The BMT Holy Name society was (is?) a lay Catholic organization. It was still very active in the '60s, more than two decades after the BMT itself ceased to exist.
When you visited 370 Jay Street in the '60s you often saw "BMT Holy Name Society" posters at the elevators bank, announcing meetings.
I don't when or if it was ever disbanded or renamed.
The BMT Holy Name society was (is?) a lay Catholic organization. It was still very active in the '60s, more than two decades after the BMT itself ceased to exist.
When you visited 370 Jay Street in the '60s you often saw "BMT Holy Name Society" posters at the elevators bank, announcing meetings.
I don't when or if it was ever disbanded or renamed.
The FDNY Holy Name Society looks to be quite active.
Might want to take in this story from today's front page of the Times Union first:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=54938&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/8/2002
(no registration required)
And now for the SEQUEL which didn't make it to the web site. When one shaking down by Bruno and Sweeney ain't enough for David Gunn, comes *ANOTHER*!!!
ALBANY TIMES UNION - Thursday, August 8, 2002 - Page B5, "For the Record" section
U.S. DOT AWARDS $1.8 MILLION GRANT FOR RAIL STATION
Saratoga Springs - The U.S. Department of Transportation has provided a $1.8 million grant for renovation of the city train station, U.S. Rep. John Sweeney, R-Clifton Park, announced on Wednesday.
The funds will underwrite the final phase of the design project, which will produce blueprints and include engineering support for construction. After the design phase, a release issued by Sweeney said, a report will be made about integrating the station with other forms of transportation in the Capital Region. --
?????
Do you mean USDOT has decided to rehab the RENASLLARE AMTRAK depot??? Like they want to rebuild the old Amtrak station instead of using the CDTA one? Waaahahahahah... funniest development I've read in a while...
AEM7
Nope ... USDOT is paying for the DESIGN of a SECOND NEW Amtrak station in posh, upscale, can pay for it themselves SARATOGA. This is IN ADDITION to Bruno's OTHER boondoggle (and yes, this is Bruno's district also) ... this is the racetrack, about 30 or so miles north of Rensselaer, COMPLETELY OFF the Amtrak mainline. If this one's built, Amtrak would have to run additional trains in a similar fashion to the Hartford spur off the NEC. Nearest "real" Amtrak station is Schenectady.
But this one's a whole NEW scam on Amtrak. Gotta love it, you PAID for it. :)
Actually, having read the article, my view has changed a little.
It may be true that taxpayers elsewhere in New York State have something to complain about it, but according to the article AMTRAK is only being asked to fund part of the operating costs of the station. The capital costs have been paid for by NY State. I had thought, based on Gunn's comments, that the State wanted the federal government to fund the station's construction after the fact.
Bear in mind that the federal government has paid to rehab half the stations on the Northeast Corridor OUTSIDE New York State. Bear in mind, as well, that New York to Albany is fairly well traveled for an Amtrak line.
Perhaps a MetroNorth takeover isn't a bad idea -- IF Columbia County and the CDTA are willing to pay some of the subsidy cost. Perhaps the full MTA tax plan isn't a reasonable burden for one line, but a share of it -- say the 1/4 cent sales tax -- is. There could be a fair solution, it's just that with the people of the City of New York available as a victim one is seldom imposed.
"Perhaps a MetroNorth takeover isn't a bad idea -- IF Columbia County and the CDTA are willing to pay some of the subsidy cost. Perhaps the full MTA tax plan isn't a reasonable burden for one line, but a share of it -- say the 1/4 cent sales tax -- is. There could be a fair solution, it's just that with the people of the City of New York available as a victim one is seldom imposed."
Hard to imagine the residents of Columbia County volutarily paying an extra .25% sales tax just so those "rich" New York summer people (who don't vote there) can get cheaper service to NYC from Hudson.
The busiest times at the Hudson station are Friday and Sunday evenings. Most traffic is non-residents coming up for the weekend, not residents traveling to the southern reaches of the state.
If Rhinecliff wouldn't go for MN ervice, and they already pay the .25% tax, no way Columbia County would go for it.
(Hard to imagine the residents of Columbia County volutarily paying an extra .25% sales tax just so those "rich" New York summer people (who don't vote there) can get cheaper service to NYC from Hudson.)
You know, my family has always made a point of vacationing in upstate New York, mostly camping but with meals in restarants and occasional stays in hotels and inns, to keep the money where it seems to be needed.
After what has happened in the past year, and what that makes me think about the past decade, I think next year I'll have to reconsider. We'll be in PA this weekend.
Amtrak's issue is that they already *OWN* the existing station free and clear. No incremental expenses at a time when they have no money. A reasonable plan COULD have entailed constructing the new station on the site rather than creating a new site and expenses. And there's Amtrak's problem. If you read Gunn's statements, Amtrak is already losing a fortune providing train service and hardly has the scratch to pay out MORE bills.
In short, Gunn's saying it's time for New York to start picking up the guest check at the table rather than pushing same over to him. The way CDTA is spinning the story, Amtrak shouldn't need to pay a dime since concessions, parking and other items are already taken care of. but you'd CERTAINLY think that someone would have asked Amtrak if they'd move in before the shovel hit the ground. Then again, this IS New York. :)
Buddy gave me the news...source was maintainance supervisor that pushed me into every task and inspection to learn and work and do. Oficially on Friday, August 9th, Redbirds are no more on the #2 line.
I did 'undercar inspection' today of another 'storage car R142.' Nothing found loose, no burned out to the base brake shoes, no hanging wires or hoses, no gearbox leaks, no broken couplers or linkbars, all wheels gauged 39 X 0, not one brake shoe to replace....first inspection was a sucess. OF COURSE crew grabbed at me to do 'troubles repairs' when I was finished. TA is getting better. 'Wanna boid?' Take #5 or find a pigeon! CI Peter
so today i made it on the one of the last redbird #2 sets!
I still think Redbirds will be around for a while...if a R142 DIES in RTO...what else is available? Official notice does not mean written in stone. 'Written in stone' means a headstone: 'Here lies CI Peter...left his employment of twenty one years for work he loves and cares about only to be zapped and squished. RIP.'
zapped and squished!! very optimistic
Well, pretty soon the Brightliners will be the grand-daddies of the fleet. I rode two of them today.
So did I. N-train southbound from 57/7 to 23 St. As soon as the last of the Redbirds are gone (the day should never come) we will start a million threads about saving the Brightliners. Let me officially start now: SAVE THE BRIGHTLINERS! THEY ARE THE VERY BESTEST!!!! :)
Well, I defintely think the R44s deserve to go before the R32s.
:-) Andrew
I second the motion! But keep the R-46's for a while. They are growing on me. Then again, nah. Sacrafice the smooth to save the ribbed!
You've got my vote for the R-32s. The R-46s can stay, too.
My hope is they save the R-40 slants. Dump the R-46's!
I thought that was understood :) Of course, I would rather save the slants over any other non-redbird car in current service.
Hell NO!! Save the 75 footers!!!
Just the R-46s. The others can go.
Don't you DARE blaspheme the 32's, bro ... they were the CADILLACS of the line when I did R9's ... cab like a larger version of a redbird, similar whines from the motors and the nice HARD braking of redbirds before being emasculated with marshmallow brake shoes. I was amazed to see what they'd done to them, especially in the cab with that stupid speedo, AIR CONDITIONING (zounds!) and a bunch of other cobbery that made them not at all like I remembered.
The 46's came on the railroad after I left (they were in testing and I *DETESTED* that stupid slide pot controller thingy) and they had WIMPY brake release sounds ... the 42's and the 44's were only put out for the high seniority guys in my time. Got a 42 ONCE, got a 44 ONCE but did do a few 32's ... still liked the Arnines better myself though the 32, 42 and 44 runs as a CONDUCTOR were pretty cool, not getting WET and all. :)
Not to worry. The R-32s have been one of my favorites ever since my very first subway ride in 1965. I miss the blue doors, green backlit side signs, and bulkhead curtains, but they are as good a product as Budd ever built. Too bad the city didn't buy more of them.
Come to think of it, the R-32s rank just an eyelash behing the R-1/9s amd R-10s as my alltime favorite subway cars.
I tell ya, the 32's were the cars I *wanted* to work as CONDUCTOR ... they had a PA! Woohoo! But the Arnines stole my sould when I saw that the "hippie chix" were IMPRESSED by a "car monkey" and da "monkey suit itself" ... MANY a #2 end was blessed on deadheads. :)
When I saw the 32's still running when Nancy and I went back to visit last Kissmoose, I stood in AWE at how EMASCULATED they'd become from their glory days. I'm sad, and shocked to say if they go sleeping with the fishies ala boid, I wouldn't be disappointed. For anyone who has viewed an OPEN CASKET, the 32's don't look ANYTHING like the "daddy I knew" ... not even REMOTELY (aside from the ribs on the outside of the carbody) ... those who have DONE too many funerals KNOW what I mean by this. They AIN'T the 32's *I* knew ... blue doors, ROUTE sign and DESTINATION sings in TWO separate windows, NO air conditioning, BLUE (same color as the doors) axiflow fans, and the CAB in the 32's is not AT ALL what I worked ... they're MUTANTS ...
Granted, they're in MUCH better shape than their younger cousins, but they've turned into bastards TOO ... I won't blink an eye when these "Franken32's" go to the fishies either ... and for the same reasons - the LoV's are gone, the R10's are gone and so are my *SACRED* Arnines. "Train overboard" and then play taps ... where's my gotdammed BEER? :)
I don't approve of the way the R-32's have been mutilated either, but I still think the R-160's are 100,000 times worse. Sure, granted the R-32's are only a rolling shell of what they once were (yeah MK did an excellent job of fucking them up), but I would still prefer one of those to either the R-143 or R-160. If those rice grinders are shades of things to come, we're in bad shape indeed.
Yeah, I hear ya ... but you can blame the "off-shore tax haven laissex-fairy" for the fact that there's *ZERO* domestic manufacturers of rail cars. Only satisfaction at all is the AIRLINE industry is finding themselves in the SAME situation now as the "TA" ... Bombardier "regional jets" (flying out of SMALLBANY air-POT as well as other places NEAR YOU) or Air-blimps ...
I've lost all my love for the 32's ... they're NOT 32's anymore aside from the stainless steel sides that say "Proctor-Silex" like the REST of da fleet. If it ain't an Arnine, it can't dance, and if it can't dance, ain't no fun. RONAN won the war ... we've got "boxes that move people" and little more. SAVOR it. Or else. Vote for the "incumbent party," more of the same. :)
That's why I say cherish the Redbirds while they're still around. Oh, how I will miss the metal straphangers. They're the last cars you can do some serious straphanging in. I will also miss those axiflow fans, but I digress....
Damned shame it is ... if *I* was "King of the BMT" then folks would be riding Q cars, LoV's and Arnines ... air conditining? Wave your ARMS real hard ... there ya are. :)
I have faith that the 32's will do Yeoman's service to the bitter end. But as far as I'm concerned, they might as well be R-66's, much like when they tried to pass off the R11's as (ahem) "R34's"... freaking FRANKENTRAINS ... get these IMPOSTERS outta my FACHE. I WORKED the 32's ... these ain't 32's anymore. :)
Did you ever work an R16? How did these cars run? I never had the opportunity to ride one.
Never RAN one ... sorry to say, have no answer on this one. All I can say is crews HATED them and didn't think much more of them than they did of the 27/30's ... ALL of those lookalikes were considered as "stretch redboids" by crews and some of them had SERIOUS problems. But I worked the D which consisted at the time of R1/9's, 32's, 42's and a 44 here and there.
No problem. I figured you being a BMT man, you might of had the opportunity. I always wanted to drive an R27/30 on the ol' M line during Brighton days but, I'll have to wait until I become a motorman. I'm still working on it, but first things first. I have to survive as a trackworker first.
LOL
Sorry, M doesn't run there anymore, but I can reminince, right?
Actually, my BIG problem at Stillwell was that *MY* pick (the "D train") was IND through and through. There was one HELL of a "the beatings shall now commence" at Stillwell for us "unholiest of the unholies" who worked the "IND invasion" on the Brighton line. The IND had a nasty habit of NOT being "racist" among a predecessor railroad (BMT) that took PRIDE in their racism ... but I won't waste time here since the last time I explained the history of RACISM on the BMT, this place almost went away permanently. Suffice it to say that the problem of the "IND crowd" hadn't ended in the SEVENTIES at Stillwell.
But no, never set foot in a "QB" train (Which *was* running all that stuff in my time, so was the RR and several others. Those trashers were all OVER the BMT, much to the chagrin of the schedule) ... heh.
hey '' Kirk'' stop throwin dose tommyhawks at us,willya? da 32's,day gone from da Bronx...see?
KIRK'S DA MAN, KIRK'S DA MAN!!!
Oh CHIT ... I've clearly bought it now. :)
Tommyhawks? I'll have you know that these "missiles" are fully equipped. And HEY, while the 32's had axiflows, us pig in da Bronix had AIR CONDITIONED THRILLS for our token. Too bad none of us could afford air conditioning for our APARTMENTS. Heh. And they wonder why we was railfans in August. Oink! :)
The 32's did become somewhat of a fixure over there at Concourse.Too bad they went bye bye... now it really doesnt make a DIFFERNENCE,with all the trains lookin alike in a few years down the road[R44/46/68/68a/143/160 and/or the R160a].The originality,the design that made them special, is gone.everything about the new stuff is so...germaine its sickening.... that sameness.....where's the passion???
I wonder why when they GOH the redbirds that they kept there old ceilings and on the 32s they didnt. Anyone have an answer for me?.
When the R-32s were overhauled they got air conditioning, and the new ceiling contained air diffusers for it. The "Redbirds" (outside of the single R-33s, of course) had already gotten their air conditioning units during the 1970s and early 1980s, when there was barely enough money to do the job and not enough for aesthetics. The "Redbirds," in general, were committed for overhaul before the R-32s were, and by the time NYCT got around to the R-32 the overhaul program's specs had been refined.
By the way, a few of the early R-33s to be overhauled DID get new ceilings, at least in part...the air diffusers put in during the air conditioning retrofit were retained, but the former air vents (which were blocked on the other "Redbirds") were replaced by solid panels.
David
I didnt know that the redbirds had AC before they were overhauled. Thats news to me.
The program started in 1977 (following successful prototypes) and was completed in 1982. Equipment was provided by Safety Electric (later called Stone Safety -- I forget what the name is now), and most of the work was done in-house.
David
Thats accurate for the R33-36WF Weren't the R33MLs overhauled in the late 80s early 90s By MK the same rebuilders as the R32s. I wonder why they overhauled it like that for the R32. Honestly it wouldve been nice to keep the aqua blue interior with the blue anixflow fans but converted to blow the AC air like on the redbirds with the straphangers just like the redbirds.
Nope...the married-pair R-33s were overhauled from 1986-91 at 207th Street Overhaul Shop.
As for the ceiling, the interior color scheme, and the handholds, they were all delivered (in the R-32 overhaul) the way NYC Transit ordered them.
David
Yes, at the time the Redbirds were overhauled (back in 1985), they were done in-house at the Coney Island shops. As pointed out in SubTalk, alot of old technology was left behind in their overhaul. MK did a complete overhaul. They also did an excellent job of lousing up the R-46's. My favorite are the R-33 WF single-line cars (the 9300's), since they retained the axiflow fans and have a less cluttered look, since they don't have the bulky A/C units.
Some R-36s were overhauled at Coney Island, as were the 39 single-unit R-33s. 494 R-33s were overhauled at 207th Street. The R-26, R-28, and R-29 fleets (446 cars in total) were overhauled by the seemingly reviled Morrison-Knudsen.
Who did the rest of the R-36s? MORRISON-KNUDSEN, Amtrak's(!) Beech Grove Shops, New York Rail Car, and a company called Mechtron that I never heard of again (anybody here hear of Mechtron since?).
In short, VERY few of the "Redbirds" were overhauled by Coney Island Shops. The GOH program for the cars now known as "Redbirds" started in 1982 with the R-36 fleet and ended in 1991 with the completion of the R-33 project.
David
uhhh hey dont worry,they're gonna be around for another 10-15 years so take it easy.
No, according to several sources, the R32's are toast by 2009.
well... they might say that and be planning that, but, do you think that the R44s will actually be in reasonable condition when that time comes??? i think that as 2010 comes along, the R160-OO will end up replacing the R44
Let's not overstate the R44's problems. They're tempermental, but they still get the job done. They're not R16's.
They broke the mold when they came out with the R-16s.:-)
Thankfully, they only purchased 200 of those lemons.
sveral sources? uh huh ok,never believe 'sources'.more often than not,they're dead wrong.if those 32's go through another overhaul,then yeah another 10-15 years till they are out.
I'm one of those sources, and MY source was the Staff Summary for the R-160 procurement, which was given to the MTA Board late in July 2002. If it turns out to be wrong, it's because NYCT changed its collective mind in the intervening years, not because anyone's coming up with anything off the top of his head and posting it as fact.
David
Yes, I ride the Brightliners every day on the "E". But it's not the same. MK did a really good job of fucking them up in the GOH. I would have loved to ride them when they had the ceilings like the redbirds and front paper signs. Also, the blue doors added a nice touch.
In 2009, they'll be approximately 45 years old. Considering how they were abused the first part of their lives, that's amazing.
The question is if structurally they will continue to hold up.
Not looking foward to be 'zapped and squished.' When the next maintainance supervisors exam comes about, I'll make the list. Someone could use my brain before it becomes mush. One third of my class was engineering/technical, one third was practical HVAC/electrical/mechanical and the other third was 'how do I do this work?' Better inscription: CI Peter died on the job doing work he found easy and loved at the age of eighty nine.'
Uh, the R62/R62a. Everyone seems to be forgetting them...
YAY!
Farewell, Redbirds. You served us West Siders well.
I didn't think of that! That makes the 7th Ave-Broadway line 100% "Silver"!
I haven't been on that line in a while, are there any R142's on the 3 line, or is it all R62 like the 1/3/9 used to always be?
No R-142's on the 3.
The 1 and 3 have been 100% R-62A for many years. Right now they even share a fleet, but that will probably be changing in a month.
That's what I thought (minus the "A", I don't know the difference between R62 and R62A).
BTW, what do you mean - "changing in a month"? Does that mean R142's are coming, or do you mean that the 3 and 1/9 won't be sharing a fleet when Greenwich St opens?
The 3 and 1/9 didn't share a fleet before 9/11 and I don't see why they'd be sharing a fleet after 9/15. The 1/9 will probably keep some of its singles, though. (I hope.)
I doubt that very much.:( The Railfan window will be missed.
Why do you doubt it? The only reason the 3 kept its singles while the rest of the R-62A fleet was made into five-car sets was that the 3 ran nine-car trains. The 3 doesn't run nine-car trains anymore, so it doesn't need the singles. As the 7 gets more R-62A's, lots of singles will go there, but until that happens it doesn't really matter where they run.
GoodByeSky RedBirdsky. Had #5 Carbodsky Friday...supervisor was very concerned about open gashes in carbody and less concerned about R22 refrigerant undercharge. Pair sent back to East 180th...death sentance. Overtime for crew changingout AC and air compressors with nerw units...for a few weeks of jollies. CI Peter
Yes, I will miss you with all of my heart and all of my soul and stuff.
I guess last week, I was saying bye to the Redbirds on the wrong line. I rode them on the 4 (unplanned), when I guess I should have beem riding them on the 2! (see my post-"Today I said my good-byes to the Redbirds")
It's strange, about 10-12 years ago, I used to ride the 2/3 line from Clark St to Fulton quite often - I used to like waiting at Clark wondering if a 2 or a 3 would be coming. If I saw "red" I knew without a doubt it was a 2. Hard to believe that's over.
Uh Oh, Salaamallah is not going to like this....
Salaamallah was well warned before I got this news today. #5 will probably run the last of the Redbirds upon his visit to NYC. Maybe I can get my Dept Supt to cough up a 'special.' When I rode the 'Last Redbird Excursion,' I did not know any of the riders...only found one TA C/R that I encountered on the #2. The surprise was having people introducing themselves to me...'You're OnTheJuice.' Salaamallah gets his own special Redbird...and will flee back to LA for anoniminity. Hey, I liked the recognition, especialy on a trainset I can fix. CI Peter
Hey, someone better hide some of these at 76th Street, or in a tunnel somewhere, like they did with the LowV's......
i shot the #2 with all redbirds back in the fall of 2000 .....
a day and night rail-fan-window view, night & day
will have em forever !!
MY GOD THE TEARS!!!!!!!!!!! (SNIFF)!
When I started TA, it was 'spray and wipe R142s' after I demonstrated how to trouble shoot the radio communications equipment. Then Redbirds...carbody, undercar and propulsion. When I had a little experience, the car desk would farm me over to the 180th #5 line. I wondered why TA hired me to do electrical work when they shoved me into the guts of the Redbird. If you can do ninety percent of the Redbird work, you can do any trainset. It could take years to learn everything...there are over thirty steps in the operation of the Master Controller despite coast/switching/series/parallel. PS 248 should have a fully operational Redbird pair to get your feet wet into...trips to Coney Island yards are for tourists. I have my tears and give my Grace. CI Peter
I'll missed them so much! I can't believe they aren't there anymore. See, being on Long Island, I'm missing a lot of things! Damn! At least I have my MTH Redbird #2 trains sets.
Well I keep a look out tomorrow to see if this is true or not.(I take your word Peter.) Damn, I almost had one on Sunday. Theres always the 7.........
Damn, I almost had one on Sunday. Theres always the 7.........
And the 4 has a few. Are there still some on the 5?
Yes, I would estimate the 5 is about half and half now.
Well, I can only relay info from trusted sources. As for #5, eight hours from now I'll be doing something Redbird. Nice not to have to change your work clothes every day. Friday Redbird undercar really stinks, especially if you get a 'flagged car.' Gotta learn to say 'NO' in troubles and disappear after 1 PM but that is not in my nature. You do your inspection, make your readings, fix what is fixable and flop out. What you think is accumulated dirt undercar is more like a quarter century worth...some will feed the fishies. Redbird live on the #5...enjoy the ride. CI peter
"Oficially on Friday, August 9th, Redbirds are no more on the #2 line."........??? sez who ?? ..........again !!........??
reminds me of the old billy martin dayz with da' yanks !! .....!!
did you get a MONEY BACK warranty on dat ??
Or was and or is dis'until some future "F' up in the future ??
like in setember 2002 ???............!
'Tis a sad day indeed. Wonder how much longer I will be able to enjoy them on the "7". Seems those piece-of-S%*# R-62A's are taking over!
Ok. So you're saying redbirds are completely off the 2 line? I'm going to remember that this weekend when I inevitably make at least one trip on a redbird on the 2 line.
And don't forget all those redbirds on the 4 line. It's about 40% redbird, 60% 62, and of course, 1 142.
40% Redbirds on the 4. I didn't know it was that much. I thought it was more like 25-30%.
Wow, no more Redbirds on the 2 after today. I guess we're finally getting an all stainless fleet, like everyone on Division B and on the 1, 3 and 6. The disappearence of Redbirds has been so gradual, and I've ridden the 2 so many days without seeing a Redbird that I sometimes forgot we still had Redbirds on the 2. But now they're going. I guess it's time.
suddenly a redbird shows back up on da' #2 !!!!!.............?
Well, after observing the Flushing Line through the traffic camera at 36th St & Queens Blvd for 45 minutes from 5:55pm to 6:40pm today, Redbirds outnumber the R-62a by nearly 2 to 1. I observed 23 Redbird trainsets and 11 R-62A trainsets.
Now this is *true* armchair railfanning :)
Oops .. there goes another Rebird ....
--Mark
In order to get an accurate estimate, one need to watch the 7 line for only :45 minutes or less. Your ratio of red vs. silver sounds right. Let's hope I get some work on the 7 line over the next few weeks. I miss that line.
Well today on the beast, there was one Redbird set, TWO R62a sets and the rest R142s. Going back to the R62a sets, one was from 240St and the other from Livonia.
Were the R-62a's in passenger service or for the wash?
They were in passenger(revenue) service. They were later resting at Unionport Yard around 8:30pm.
Hey, Good Shepard, seems like your alternate handle could be 'The BeastMaster" ;)
it took long enough.
Does anyone know how or why this Rt102 Sharon Hill Car wound up on State St. in Media??? The rollsign clearly says '102 Sharon Hill Local,' the street clearly only has one track and the line is only like that in Media. Are the rollsigns set by the crew upon boarding? And does the setting of the rollsign affect how the car goes at Drexel Hill Jct? Is it an automated system, or do is there a tower or something that I am missing?
dunno...but nice photo.
I guess I should say that I didn't take it, rather it's from this very site, in the Philly Area Rt101/102 area. The picture was taken by the Nycsubway.org's webmaster, Mr David Pirmann. I came across it trying to do research for modeling them as BVE routes.
Most likely, the car is scheduled to go to Sharon Hill on the next outbound trip from 69th Street. Since the car will be looped at 69th Street, the operator doesn't want to walk the length of the car to set the rear sign for the correct route. Few, if any of the inbound passengers will even notice, since everybody who rides knows everthing always goes to 69th Street.
Also quite possible it was on a fan trip, such as the one you can peruse here. We changed signs several times on that one and I wouldn't be surprised if other fantrips did the same.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, it definitely wasn't a fan trip. That was the day in November 2000 that Simon Billis & I went to Philadelphia. It rained most of the day.
We had a really great day even though it was raining and I was not feeling my best. Must do it again this year. I just loved the junction at the end of the tunnel - tramcar city. Must not forget the food.
Simon
Swindon UK
I hear the next Nostalgia train at the end of August is going to Coney Island. SNORE Why can't the TA do them like the March of Dimes benefit earlier this year, where we did the Southern and Easter Divisions. The TA wants 30 bucks for this fiasco, when for 5 dollars more, the show I got in May was unbelievable. I guess the tower operators have arthiritis and don't want to deal with switching the Triplex. I was looking foward to that trip, as it's probably the last of the year. But, it's not worth 30 dollars, and I'm staying home. Come on, Museum!
Don't laugh about the TW/O not knowing how to set swtiches. On one Nostalgia trip we were on the north express tracks at Jay and are suppose to do a double cross over to the south F tracks (Three yellows) and the guy didn't know how to do it.
Train went all the way back up to 59th St to come back down.
Now that was extra mileage.
Same place different trip we are coming back from CI on the north F local at Jay and the tower wouldn't give the lineup to the A train tracks. Our motorman was yelling "Read the freakng G.O." and left his cab threating to go into the tower until wow, we got the line up. (He didn't say freaking).
No surprise!! There is a lot of idiocy that works in the various towers and master towers in the system (anyone who's dealt with Murphy Tower can attest!!)
ENY Master Tower is just as bad.
I'll bet the problem is of the TA's own doing, i.e. as they automate more & more the guys in the Towers end up with tit jobs, so when they have to do it for real they don't remember.
I never operated in towers, but I *did* hang out in many years ago when waiting for my interval and they USED TO have "plan sheets" for unusual moves. I take it those have gone to the great card file box in the sky ... if so, it only cries out for the TA to go to something like the NXSYS computer model for some of those interlocks where you can click a mouse on where the train needs to go and the computer just fills in the route for you. Damned shame though that folks wouldn't know which buttons to push and which levers to pull.
They still have mechanicals out there, no?
Yep, still plenty of mechanicals.
Peace,
ANDEE
I had a feeling that those old crusty interlocks were still there. So the question becomes whatever became of the "plan sheets" which told the TW/O's which levers selected which routings and which levers to pull to "number one ... make it so ... engage?" :)
According to my resident TW/O, they no longer have "plan sheets".
Peace,
ANDEE
'nuff said then ... that was the trick for "newbies" on the lines in the absence of the cigar-chomper in the window. It was a clipboard full of lists of what to pull if a work train or other unusual GO had to go somewhere that was not on the marker lights sheet.
DAMN! I'm getting old. Heh.
I'll bet he used the "other" F word.:)
Fudge?
;) LOL
It's the four-letter variety.
oh well maybe i did not miss anything after all .....!!...........?
Due to a big "F" up the hotel i was going to stay in in hempstead Our hotel we were going to rent ....
IS BOOKED FULL memorial weekend + 25% higher fees as well ...........
Guess this will ""freeze out"" my planned august 25 2002 trip as well!
I dont feel so bad about this i will still have a lot of other work 2
do including shooting on video all of the lirr ( maybe some metro N )
so i will have to miss the nostalgia trainz for now ..( oh well ) ..!
& always wanted 2 know why only just ONE ( 1 ) roundtrip ???.......!!!
Why not at least 2 ?? Why no trips in setember or the fall ??...!!!
& what happened to the LOW Vs ??? ...........!!!!........?
oh well life is not fair at all !!!........aint' dat' true !!!....???
............lol !!!
Actually, wouldn't it be SEVEN letters to use the most versatile word not in some dictionaries as an adverb? Neener-neener ...
I knew you'd say neener-neener sooner or later.:)
Oh FLOCK YEW ... heh. If I didn't CARE, I wouldn't have said it. Damned pot-smoking hippie musicians. :)
I say run the Triplexes at GREAT SPEED on LIRR. Sure some modifications may have to be made, but I would pay an extra couple a bucks for that.
Keep dreaming. The D types are not compatable with the LIRR signal system.
As I've said in previous posts, I feel that the Museum should use something else besides the Triplexes. I mean they're nice and everything, but I think now everyone is getting tired of the same nostalgia train. My hope is that they will use a few Low-V's for the centennial celebration, so why not refurbish them now and use them on a few fan trips as well. Or, as I mentioned last week, do a fan trip of R-1/9 cars. If enough people participate, I'm sure the museum could shave the price of the trip as well :o). I agree, $30 or $35.00 is quite steep.
Why not just do a 70's day fantrip, and run trains that include numerous types of cars. That would be the ultimate nostalgia for some people.
Nah, I rather see VINTAGE equipment from the teens and '20's.
I rather see VINTAGE equipment from the teens and '20's.
You want to make wine ???????????
Well, then don't whine about the subway equipment! : )
Elias
& if i could ask why only ONE trip ( no fall runs ) ???
sure would like 2 se the Low vs rock again !!!..& a fan trip of R-1/9 cars, would be the wonderful !
& if i could ask why only ONE round trip ( no fall runs ) ???
sure would like 2 se the Low vs rock again !!!..& a fan trip of R-1/9 cars, would be the wonderful !
as an out of towner, my view is MORE trips, with a variety of equipment and routes. When I come in to see my step daughter, I'd love to take her on R1-9's (She grew up in a house with destination/route sign boxes displayed, she ought to see a real train in action. As yo price. I spent $65 apiece for an afternoon SF-SJ STEAM excursion in March so my perspective may be skewed. Price a similar length music event.
oh well maybe i did not miss anything after all .....!!...........?
Due to a big "F" up the hotel i was going to stay in in hempstead is
BOOKED FULL memorial weekend + 25% higher fees as well ...........
Guess this will ""freeze out"" my planned august 25 2002 trip as well!
I dont feel so bad about this i will still have a lot of other work 2
do including shooting on video all of the lirr ( maybe some metro N )
so i will have to miss the nostalgia trainz for now ..( oh well ) ..!
& always wanted 2 know why only just ONE ( 1 ) roundtrip ???.......!!!
Why not at least 2 ?? Why no trips in setember or the fall ??...!!!
& what happened to the LOW Vs ??? ...........!!!!........?
oh well life is not fair at all !!!........aint' dat' true !!!....???
............lol !!!
Isnt there a (March Of Dimes) fantrip scheduled for sometime late September?
>>Isnt there a (March Of Dimes) fantrip scheduled for sometime late September<<
Yes, on Sunday, Sept. 22, 2002. It's the D-Types being pulled by a museum steeple cab engine #6.
Bill "Newkirk"
there needs to be a setember trip also ...!
Having just gotten home from todays Nostalgia train ride, I can assure you IT WAS NOT BORING. Many changes were made from the announced schedule/route, you don't know what you missed. I'll let others elaborate.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd do anything to ride on the Triplexes just once.
This version of the Nostalgia Train was renamed the "Sea Beach Fred" special, going up the Sea Beach middle from 86th St to 59th St. We also did the "cha cha" leaving Stilwell because (gasp)!) we left on time and some people missed the train, so we went back to get them. And we didn't get stuck behind a road train in either direction making for a pretty speedy ride.
We got picked up on time at Columbus Circle, then went north to switch to the downtown local track, then proceeded via 8th Ave to West 4th and then via F line to Coney Island.
(Recall that the Sea beach tracks between Stillwell & 86th are OOS until 2005, so we actually rode some "rare" trackage :)
My son, his friends and I had a wonderful time. They might be on WFUV radio in a few weeks as they were interviewed by one of the student reporters who attended the trip.
--Mark
Heh. Coolness! AND I *love* the ballbusting on our wayward kissin' cousin from da left coast (even if he doesn't admit that he's a LEFTIE) ... had to comment OFF-topic that Fordham University WFUV is an old kicking ground of mine as well. I was the one who put the "superturnstyle antenna" on top of the steeple there and build the COLLINS transmitter that powered WFUV ... also ran a pirate FM station that maybe ANYBODY will remember, WXVU-FM 108 in da Bronx ...
But SHAME on you Mark, we were NEVEr supposed to admit that there was a "reverser" on the train, and the TA went out of its way to INSIST that in the "cooperation" for any movie, that any SCRIPT be SURE to mention that "the subway cannot be put in reverse" ... go check movies where NYCTA "coooperated" and in EACH one there was a question of "back this train up! I CAN'T! There's no reverse on a subway car, dammit!"
Hell ... if you have THAT much free time to prove me WRONG, go for it. :)
How about this priceless exchange in the original Pelham 1-2-3?:
Bud Carmody (after Mr. Green cuts the first car loose and backs the other nine cars away): Jesus Christ, what was that?
Brown: What was what?
Bud Carmody: I didn't know these things went backwards.
Brown: Now you know.
Heh. When you decided to eat a sammich, you had to be CAREFUL of that little wrench. Click it back too far, and all the fuses blew in all 10 cars. *BUSTED*!!! :)
Assuming you'd have your sandwich while running n/b along CPW, at what point would you put the train in coast and chow down? IIRC an express would be at full speed somewhere between 72nd and 81st.
I actually only did that once or twice since my "lunch" was on my own time between shifts. But just north of 72 up until just south of 103. Beyond either point, you did need both hands AND the side signs lit. :)
>>>... had to comment OFF-topic that Fordham University WFUV is an old kicking ground of mine as well.<<<
GAWD. I'm sooo close to that damn antenna that I can hear it on my phone line.
Peace,
ANDEE
It *USED* to be silent as far as "induction" goes ... FM is at an ALWAYS CONSTANT carrier signal level ... FM being "frequency modulation" which means that the frequency wiggles, not the amplitude. Tells me that their transmitter is HORRIBLY out of tune or antenna matching if you can hear ANYTHING from their "carrier" ... then again, it's been 30 years since I built that witch. :)
But FM should NEVER screw with phones or anything that can receive "AMPLITUDE modulation" (AM) byproducts ... something's wrong over there, I'd suggest turning them in, but the FCC today cares even LESS than the NYS PSC does ... and that's a LARGE amount of "flock yoo" ... heh.
No reverse at all. A motorman on each end. Neener neener! Maybe I shoulda said that we went THE WRONG WAY on the northbound track :)
Oh yeah, and we forgot about the GO which had Queues terminating at 42nd St / Times Square ... we were supposed to terminate at 34th St, but kept right in going!
--Mark
I was just busting chops. They wouldn't even allow you to use the reverser in the yards. Always wondered why they even bothered building it in although I remember when I was a kid living at 231/Bway that a GO had trains backing up after stopping southbound at 215, REVERSING, and proceeding center track past 207th to Dyckman. No switchman in the rear, and just flagmen. Late 1950's, they'd NEVER do a move like that today. But it was FUN. Only time I've ever known a train to be operated in reverse on revenue.
And Fred wore a silly grin the whole time. Wish I'd been there.
Fred wasn't there ... but I'm sure he had that silly grin nonetheless :)
--Mark
(Recall that the Sea beach tracks between Stillwell & 86th are OOS until 2005, so we actually rode some "rare" trackage :)
No you didn't. The only reason the N terminates at 86th is that it has no platform at Stillwell. The trackage is in service for a variety of GO's, including the very common weekend and midday GO that sends the W one way via Sea Beach (express, usually). In fact, that GO is in effect this week.
While looking for stuff on DRPA.org for the Patco extentions to Mt Laurel and Glassboro, I stumbled across this:
Workers will remove the existing trolley tracks, repave the roadway, and re-stripe the surface to create an exclusive bike lane. The portion of Fifth Street runs from Race Street to Callowhill Street.
I found it here, as the fifth item down, under "Ben Franklin Bridge 5th Street Tunnel in Philadelphia Closed for Construction." Is it true that there are trolley tracks on fifth in that area? Are they the tracks that 47 used? I know the 23 tracks are intact well to the west on 11th and 12th, but where exactly did the 47 run?
The 50 ran on 5th Street. Since the line has been bused, the car tracks are no longer needed.
47 ran on 7th & 8th. It's been a bus since before SEPTA.
Which Train Sim Is the best
Trainz Or Microsoft Train Simulator?
Neither. The best is BVE. (Boso View Express)
Train Simulator
I second what Subscott said, BVE is better than MSTS. I do not have Trainz so I can't comment on that. BVE can do subway routes and BVE is free. If you get BVE, feel free to get my WMATA Red Line route for BVE, available at my website, www.orenstransitpage.com.
Dont listen to the guys about BVE. while it does have NYC routes, the graphics are terrible and there are no other views besides cab view. also getting the game to even install on some systems is a hassle.
Go with Train Sim.
Dude, you need to check out some of the stuff coming out of britain for BVE. Incredible, the graphics are on par with MSTS, excepting of course the external views, BVE has none, and the Physics of the train are much more believable than MSTS's locked permanently to the tracks version. Plus you need to pay for every thing after you get MSTS, but all stuff for BVE is free, c'mon, you can't get a better deal than that.
I wanna get Add-ons for Train Simulator, I think I'm gonna get something for TGV's.
see the graphics are no way near on par with msts. msts has a 3d engine while bve only looks 3d. you can easy tell the difference when the train is in motion. MSTS = locked to the tracks? you gotta be kidding me since BVE CANNOT DERAIL! bve is dead. all hail MSTS.
The only way you can crash in MSTS is to either do something incredibly stupid, or just wait for that Micro-trash POS to perform on par with it's brethren, you shouldn't need to wait long. BVE is a much more challenging, realistic and adaptable program than MSTS. You are clearly basing your assumptions on your expieriences with the somewhat famous 7, R, and G train simulations from Ernie Alston, Jeffrey Morris, and Robert Marrero. And while all three are plenty graphical for me, I suspect that due to limitations of previous versions of BVE, these routes lack something visually compared to the latest creations for the british trains.
This, too me, is better than MSTS:
I suggest you try:
http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk/default.htm
Especially Their Excellent LUL Northern Line
And besides, it's friggin free! What the heck are you complaining about? If you want to go get ripped off, fine, more power to you, drive the economy, errr Gate's pockets. I'm perfectly happy using my copy of MSTS (20 bucks discount) as a coaster.
From another BVE user, there's no telling the MSTS kids that mighty Billy can do anything less than flawless. So I'll run whatever NYCT run strikes me while the MSTS kids wonder if anyone's going to bring Acela to NYP some day. :)
And there's other new sims in the works that, like BVE, will give you the "train physics" that real operation provides along with the "thrown off the train" experience of MSTS. I first enjoyed MECHANIK and thought it was neat. Then came BVE and I forgot about Mechanik. With what's about to come along in another few months, BVE will be left in the dust as well. Meanwhile MSTS just kinda sits there ...
And TRAINZ is pretty damned nice too - but pricey. For now, BVE. But take heart, some folks like to operate, others prefer to watch the train go by. :)
(1) Where can you get BVE?
(2) Does it only work in Windows?
Mvh Tim
Did a Google search and found what I needed.
Mvh Tim
Damn my timing ... heh. For anyone else who wants Windows (or has a different type of Fruity/geeky computer with an EMULATOR for Windows that does "DirectX 8" or so) here's a great pleace to get started with BVE and all you need to know ...
http://members.aol.com/bvehelper/
(and YES, "Mackoy" has redone BVE in AMERICAN for those who are too lazy to do for themselves) ... Mackoy never realized that we were that arrogant that we wouldn't make an effort to get a translation. So Mackoy decided to learn some English in order to make his site a bit easier to deal with, as well as the train sim. DIE-HARD railbuff he is ...
Thanks for the URL, Selkirk. I downloaded the two basic files from Mackoy's site this afternoon, but it'll be much better to have this additional info as well.
Mvh Tim
There's a few more that are good to have (all mentioned on that site) and then it's a matter of getting to know the structure under the "BVE folder" because some of the route and train authors didn't exactly pack their files in a standardized way and as a result, things may not go where they should and thus don't work until placed where they belong.
You've DEFINITELY got to do the "Franklin Avenue shuttle" at http://r68a_5200.tripod.com/ and there's many others around as well. Can't beat the price though. :)
You can find BVE at this site. It operates with windows only.
http://www.trainsim.org.uk/index.html
Thanks! I found that site too (with my Google search), which was a comfort since Mackoy's own site is almost all Japanese, which I don't even pretend to read.
I run Linux basically all the time, but a good game of this type (or something like Traffic Giant, which I love) is the sort of thing I'll boot over into Windows for.
Mvh Tim
but a good game of this type (or something like Traffic Giant, which I love) is the sort of thing I'll boot over into Windows for.
Sounds like me and BAHN...
:-)
Has anybody here played Traffic Giant? Is it available in the US? (It's German.)
Mvh Tim
I've played it and I enjoy it quite a lot - I especially enjoy running the trams/trolleys in it. The only thing I'd change would be to add some real cities into it - trying to run trolleys in Manhattan would be fun :D
It is indeed available in the USA:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/videogames/B00005EBGB/qid=1029110909/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1_etk-vg/104-0105724-9915147
(Random slightly OT note about Amazon - I used it for the first time last night to order 3 DVDs (one of them is the Taking of Pelham 123, so I guess this isn't totally OT) - it seems to have worked as they've already debited my account - hopefully I'll receive the goods tomorrow or the day after)
(Responding to you and BMdoobieW):
I bought Traffic Giant on a Saturday afternoon and started playing it that day at about 7 p.m. I didn't go to bed until 6 a.m. Sunday.
I don't play it very often because it's so hard for me to tear myself away from it! For instance, right now, I'd never dare to even start it up because I have to start work in a couple of hours. (Today, I start my shift at 13.19 and end at 21.22. It's about 11.25 here.)
But it really is a blast, although I agree that it would be cooler if they had real cities, or (even better) if you could create your own cities. Then you could model any real city you wanted.
Mvh Tim
or (even better) if you could create your own cities.
Now that would be fun!
Seriously, I find that the biggest flaw is that the phases on the traffic lights in Traffic Giant are WAY too long. That really needs fixing.
Yes, I've played it and love it! I'm in the US of A. Interestingly, not long after I heard about it here on SubTalk last summer, I managed to get it FREE AFTER REBATE at CompUSA. What luck!
--Brian
WARNING: This game is highly addictive. I have been spotted by the sun twice after starting games around 12-1AM at college. Use precaution and try not to play alone.
I bought Traffic Giant on a Saturday afternoon, came home, ate some dinner and started playing at about 7 p.m.
I went to bed at 6 o'clock Sunday morning.
BOY that game is fun. (Although I agree with another poster that the traffic light cycles are too long.)
Mvh Tim
I have this question. everyone her knows that the irt have 51 foot cars. My question is. Does any other system in the world use the same size or smaller cars? or do we have the smallest cars?
My guess is Line 1 in Budapest (the model for the Contract I IRT's stations, by the way. Real shorties, and narrow, too.
David
Presumably London (Tube) and Glasgow, but I don't have figures
I was going to say Glasgow as well. i think they were on the order of 20-30 feet.
Do you know how big the MBTA's Blue Line cars are? Aren't they shorter versions of the cars used on the Orange Line? I rode them, and had the impression the Blue Line used cars shorter than the IRT.
The Blue Line Cars on the MBTA are 48 feet and 6 inches long. You are correct that they are the shorter version of the Orange Line cars, which are 65 feet long. -Nick
The only figure for length I have for Glasgow is for the first cars after electrification - they were 42' long. More interestingly, Glasgow runs on an odd gauge: 4'0" (1219mm).
I think this is just about the shortest there is - it even beats the VAL206 and VAL208 (Lille, Rennes, Toulouse) cars which are 13m = 42'8" long.
The standard in Chicago used to be 48'. I'm not sure what it is now (of course, allowing for married-pair sets), but the 4000-series cars built in 1924 that initiated subway service in Chicago were 48' cars. Some older wood "L" cars were even shorter, around 46'. The longest cars used on the Chicago system were probably the CA&E and North Shore steel cars, both of which were around 55' (and the platforms of the cars had to be tapered to accomodate the extra length).
Frank Hicks
CTA cars are still 48'-0" long each (96'-6" for a married pair). Additionally, CTA cars are 8'-8" wide at the floor, and 9'-4" wide at the side sheathing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I think PATH is IRT sized.
Sometimes the "El" cars were a little shorter than the IRT division cars.
#3 West End Jeff
Yes, the Myrtle and 3rd Ave els were IRT sized. On the northern part of the Myrtle (the current M line) they had to have extenders on the Myrtle el trains, because the stations were shared between the normal BMT subway cars and the Myrtle IRT sized "el" cars.
How long were the cars that were used on the Brooklyn "El" lines?
#3 West End Jeff
SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line cars are somewhere around 50' long. They have to be short to negotiate the tight bend between the 2nd Street and Spring Garden stations.
Mark
MBTA blue line cars are 48'6 to accomaidate the small tunnel and loop
Not to mention the sharp turn right around Huntingdon station, where the el curves from Front St to Kensington Av.
The curve is between Huntingdon and York-Dauphin to be exact, almost immmediately north of York-Dauphin. It's a tight one.
Mark
I'm not too sure about the size of each car, or if it is a true subway, but Scarborough Rapid Transit in Canada has extremely small and narrow cars
I beleive SEPTA's Market-Frankford cars are 57 foot long. Not positive of that though.
Scarborough Rapid Transit is considered an ICTS (intermediate capacity transit system) much the same as Vancouver's Skytrain and (gasp) the Walt Disney World Monorail,
--Mark
It has to be the Senate Subway
(yea right!. It's a people mover).
Haifa, Israel, perhaps?
Could the Septa Sub Surface cars count? They operate in a tunnel next to heavy rail subway operations, or are you only looking for Heavy rail, third rail powered and fully sub-surface or elevated operation? In that case I'd submit the N-5 cars, nah, come to think of it they're kinda long.
What the heck is this?
Holy Smokes Batman! It's a Lo-V with a Van Dorn Coupler! What could this thing have been pulling around?
-Stef
now the next question is. when and where was this picture taken?
Picture was taken at Westchester Yard, 6/11/1972. Steve Zabel Photo.
-Stef
I dunno....they did all sorts of perverse things with Lo-V
work motors, including putting different couplers on them.
It's clearly marked "VD" for Van Dorn. The yellow Lo-V behind
it says H2C. You may also see cars marked "J" and "F".
I don't think there were any MCB Lo-V horses. A lot of the
old IRT work equipment still had VanDorns at this point, which
I assume is about 1965.
That particular picture of the Lo-V with the VD was taken in 1972 at Westchester Yard. One of Steve Zabel's photos. What could it have been pulling around if it were on the IRT? The Hose Car pops up in my head. 53!
MCB Lo-Vs - I'm trying to dig up a pic of a Lo-V with MCBs. I've only found WF Motors with them. Wait....
A Lo-V Work Motor, not rider car. Is that something growing out of the end of the car?
-Stef
OMG, yes NYCTA in the 70's were in a sorry state. Unlike today when the subway cars at least LOOK clean on the outside.
It's funny - I knew a guy in high school whose last name was VanDorn. You can probably guess what his nickname was - yup, V. D.
Uh oh, it's got VD!
I was waiting for someone to say that.....
Some people need to get their mind out of the gutter! Heh. A Van Dorn is an attractive looking thing - and shapely too. I gotta learn how to mate el cars with VDs at Branford.
-Stef
Goes pretty easily actually - got shown that back in school car. There's a metal bar ("link") and then it's a matter of lining up the pins, dropping them and if I remember correctly, the last step involved a cotter pin or similar to keep them in place. Been well over 30 years, but it was all part of "useless knowledge on the B division." All manual labor, but not all that hard either as long as you keep your hands away while the cars are moving. :)
Yeah! I need some of that knowledge. I'll have to bang on Jeff's door now.... Two el cars are set up now as a matter of fact. Car G and 1227 are an odd couple at best.
-Stef
You'll find it ain't hard at all, but tricky. And at least those two cars are similar in a strange sorta way. Ah, if only the money existed to have a few pairs of some other cars. But then again, where would ya put 'em? :)
VD's make you appreciate modern couplage though. Heh.
Possibly the TA site will be corrected today, too.
Segment 1 179-2ave Queens express
Segment 2 CI-71st via G Queens local
"Possibly the TA site will be corrected today, too."
Let's hope so, or otherwise the poor NYCT employees in the field will discover how many people do actually read the posters and are standing at 2nd Ave screaming "but the poster explicitly said that southbound service is normal. How do I get to Brooklyn from here?"
Let's hope also that the C is running via Broadway-Lafayette in both directions.
ER a large percentage can't rtead and the other lagre percentage won't.
Of course I can't write after being on the board.
I'm sure you're right, but if they don't fix the posters this is a great chance to find out how many can and do read.
I did report this to the TD and the TSS for the line.
They will be using 17 extra crews for this on Sat. Most 179 jobs will become 3 to 2nd with a penalty (sweet) and the CI to CTL will be two trippers (stinky).
If this is right, it's nothing like what was posted.
Will the extended G use four-car trains or eight-car trains? OPTO or not? I'll be on the lookout for R-32's.
Hold it. Wouldn't it have been neat if the F segment were instead operated as a temporary merger of the F and the M, using R-42's from ENY and R-32's from Jamaica?
It's an F NOT an extended G. In fact it is a truncated G, if that part is correct I did not check the GO.
im gonna go check this out tommorow so let me get this straight,the F runs exp to 2nd Av,and also another F to CI from 71Av but local and via the G?is the G running at all?
I thought that this GO was in place for either one thing: F interlocking at Bergen st. This means that trackage on the F line from Jay st to 2nd av is indeed useable. They should either:
1. Run C trains on the F from W4 to Jay in BOTH directions.
or
2. Terminate F trains at Jay st, using the switch at York st (there is a crossover switch around York if I recall correctly.)
Trains between CI and 71st should just be labelled G trains, and there should be posters stating such.
No, the GO should be run as the poster stated -- and still states (the advisory page has been updated): SB F trains run normal (some termnating at 2nd Ave and others running through); some NB F trains run NB via the G and otherwise normal while others run NB normal from 2nd Ave only; G cut back to Court Square; NB C via Rutgers.
One of the two weekends this GO is in effect, the SB C is running express. That means it can't run via Rutgers -- the switch only connects the local tracks.
We'll see what actually happens.
Well we both were right.
The posted service was given but my orgianl argument of no overlapp in Queens Blvd was right. Overlap on the G was weird and part of Manhattan is forgivable.
The relay on the G did not work. Last night some stations were an hour between F's. Unlike the 179 segment there were not enough people on the longer segment and no extra trains. This meant if someone was very late down there was no train back up.
Now what you also may find interesting was that the supplements and the GO superceded shortly after this thread began on Subtalk.
I guess the tower at 76st must have internet access.
Heh. You mean SUBTALKING actually MATTERED? I am bemused. :)
I find it sometimes matters for me.
Like now I read te dates on GO and realize the internal mail is 2-3 day off.
Or when I misread the GO and said something I wound up getting picked up by 1E, 2F, 1 G.O., 1 G/R TSS and 2 unidentifieds.
BTW only one person at TA corrected me and he has been wrong in the past too.
Now if I was the one that took the wrong line up last night I am sure I would have been crucified.
Yeah, I hear ya ... sorry to hear that we all don't work for the same railroad. Once upon a time, everybody from superintendent down to station cleaner realized the "all in the same army" mentality and looked out for one another under the old maxim of "we sink or swim together with this MTA stuff" ... you could count on your TMO to write up the surprise before you left and the guy on the other end making sure you got out of HIS district intact as well. Yow. Good thing I not work there anymore from all I've read over the past year and change ...
I have to talk to someone I have not seen in a bit but I think with newer employees if you mess up they HIGHLY encourage you to pick off the line.
Oh, getting "ejected from the board" was a way of LIFE even back in MY days. Yeah, you cheesed off enough that when you walked into the crew room, the domino and card tables emptied out and folks were more comfy out on the CONEY ISLAND PLATFORM in JANUARY than be in a room with YOU, well ... your deodorant passed the sniff test, your shoes were STILL on your feet and you didn't have tuna for lunch, time for the eastern division. :)
Sign petitions for the wrong faction and your steward KNOWS who you voted for, yada yada ... that's the REASON for picks ... get that jamoke off *MY* railroad. Heh. The more things don't change, yada yada.
One of the two weekends this GO is in effect, the SB C is running express.
Actually there's a new GO that extends how long the C will be running express. Early September now, if I'm not mistaken.
That's a weekday GO. It doesn't apply on weekends. (The only reason it's in effect on weekdays is that the D has to be on the local track at 59 since the switch from the express track is being replaced, and the only way the D can fit on the local track is to run the C express from 145 to Canal.) The past few weekends there's been no SB express service at all on CPW or 8th Avenue.
We'll see!! Crazy GOs bring lots of surprises, for example last spring's G line GO, which had 6 car R-46s going to 4 cars WITH conductors, one train of 10 car R-32s and, get this, one 4 car train of R-68s (fresh off the Franklin Avenue Shuttle....the off-end signs still had the gray & white "S", everything else signed for "G") or let's not forget last September's "V" test, with slant R-40 and R-32s running on the "V", and majority of the "E" line fleet, as a result, were R-46s (which made "E" line crews very happy)
Huh? The Franklin shuttle's cars don't have side rollsigns -- they're permanently signed as the shuttle. Or was this GO before the rollsigns were removed?
At this point, the rolls' had been removed, but the train was run on the G line. Maybe they put on some signs for the G.
I don't remember this GO at all. When was it and what were the details? I was around pretty much all year in 2001; if it was then, I must have slept through it.
I think that it was the first "Test" GO for the Queens Blvd connector. I remember the R-68 trainset as a four car unit from CI and a two car unit from the shuttle. G trains were run with 6 cars to simulate 'real' rush hour conditions. The 'unreal' thing about the Whole GO was that the "S" train ran from 71st to 57/7th via 63rd st and the F ran thru 53rd. There was no simulation of what switching at queens plaza would have been like with the G R and V all stopping there, but they didn't seem to care.
A four car set of slants was also in place on the Prospect park Southbound local track in case an R68 pair broke down, but it didn't see any service.
R68 G?! a real kodak moment!! its even hard to imagine it...ive been livin in kensington all my life (church av/culver) and im bored of seein d@rn r46s
Also, the TA site now says the Queens-bound F (from 2nd Ave) will operate via 53 St, so that Queens Plaza, whch normally doesn't have any F service, will have F's arriving on both the local track (from Court Square) and on the express track (from 23/Ely).
I was wondering. That poster is up but the notice on the TA site was from last week before.
What's going to serve Lexington/63, Roosevelt Island and 21st St Queensbridge?
I had that GO today the CTL-STF end... first trip I got there same time as an F from 53rd... yeah, that was a fun experience... talk about CHAOS.
While riding my F on the express track, I saw two F-via-G trains on the local tracks. The Queens-bound train was a set of R32s signed "Continental Av" and "Stillwell Av." The Brooklyn-bound train was a set of R46s signed as an F via 6th Avenue!! (There is an "F via Crosstown" reading, but maybe this conductor didn't have the code.)
I would have designated the Crosstown segment as an extended G, which the Culver crowd would have understood, rather than have dual F's confusing everybody.
I would have designated the Crosstown segment as an extended G, which the Culver crowd would have understood, rather than have dual F's confusing everybody.
Yeah, well, that'd be sensible. By the way, what are 63rd Street folks doing if the F train's running on 53rd?
The Brooklyn-bound train was a set of R46s signed as an F via 6th Avenue!
By the way, what are 63rd Street folks doing if the F train's running on 53rd?
F trains were running as follows, this will answer both:
Section I: 179 St to 2 Ave, Queens Blvd Express
Manhattan bound trains run via 63 St, Queens bound via 53rd St.
Section II: Continental Av to Stillwell Ave
Brooklyn bound trains run via 63rd St and 6th Ave (normal route) to Stillwell Ave, local from Ctl to 21 St.
Queens bound trains run via Crosstown from Bergen St to Queens Plaza, local from Queens Plaza to Ctl
Yes, I did post a correction but this thread is all over the place at least if you have a one day setting.
What is worse the supplements have the wrong information too and they were corrected!
Yes, I did post a correction but this thread is all over the place at least if you have a one day setting.
I tried looking, but gave up so I figured just post. :)
The switch replacement that has caused the D train, southbound, to be local for the last 5 weeks has been extended for another month---DAMN!
Peace,
ANDEE
Oh, poor baby has to leave home three minutes early. At least you don't have to change trains or even divert through a stop on a different line, like C riders have to do.
And, BTW, the original GO ended a week ago; it was extended then.
The original GO was to end today. I don't have to leave the house earlier. The time difference is negligible. The only thing that really annoys me is with all the extra stops I can't take my nap between 125/59. Bing-bongs keep waking me up. 8-)
I'll still take the D, in its present form, anyday. I hope they never fix that bridge.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're right, it was supposed to end today. I'm not sure what made me think it was supposed to end a week ago. But the extension was posted last week.
What you really want is the bingbongless R-38's on the D. So do I; the Concourse line is one of the few sections of trackage I've never seen from the railfan window.
What you really want is the bingbongless R-38's on the D.
R-38's might not go "bingbong", but they do go "CLANGCLANG!!!" The R-32's run much quieter than the R-38's, at least I think so (probably not the most scientific statement).
My impression is just the opposite, but I haven't taken measurements either.
R-38 doors also close quietly; R-32 doors give off a slight squeak.
I've seen the Concourse line from the railfan window. Frankly, there isn't much to see in the tunnels whether your train is running express or local. There are crash walls between the tracks between stations; i. e., no I-beams every 5 feet with the adjacent track visible. There is a fourth storage track on the s/b side at one point; can't remember between which stations.
I don't do the Concourse express jog anymore. It's become too boring.
There is a fourth storage track on the s/b side at one point; can't remember between which stations.
I think it's 174th st.
It is between 170 and 167 just south of 170.
Peace,
ANDEE
The layup comes off the southbound local just north of 167. Just enough for one train after the 167th interlocking.
Still, I'd like to cover the whole system from the railfan window at least once. I've gotten lots of trackage that isn't normally covered by railfan window equipment (or isn't normally covered at all in revenue service) thanks to GO's, but I have yet to touch the Concourse line.
I did ride the express there a month ago and it was more interesting than I had remembered. Nothing remarkable, but worth seeing.
The fourth track on the Concourse line is between 167th and 170th beside the southbound local. It begins just north of 167th and dead ends about 300 feet south of 170th station.BTW was there ever a route that short turned at 167th? Because the R32s,38s,40s/40ms,and 42s have 167th Grand Concourse on the North Terminal roll signs.
I would expect that the storage track at 167 is for trains back to Manhattan after Yankee games.
-Hank
So, it is true. You are young!
Not particularly. I wasn't much of a railfan until 5-10 years ago, and from 1992 to the beginning of 2001 I didn't live in NYC. Only since last year have I been regularly scoping out railfan windows, so I missed (e.g.) the Concourse C.
The greater Cleveland RTA uncovers a SHOE SCAM
Peace,
ANDEE
One employee bought six pairs of shoes in five different sizes on the same day.
I don't get what the big deal is. And anyway how do they know what sizes of shoes the employee in question purchased? Shoe stores don't tend to stamp the size of the shoes purchased on the receipt. Most POS systems are not good enough to figure out the size of the shoe sold, and even if they could figure it out, they would consider that information proprietary and would have no cause to release it to the RTA.
Anyway I was hoping that the T had a uniform scam. I'd pay top dollar for a T uniform. It would just be cool to have in my wardrobe even though I probably won't wear it anywhere.
I thought you were talkng about third rail shoes...
That would be a pantograph scam.
When on the Brooklyn Bound platform of Canal Street (Q/W) I notice what looks like the beginnings of another tunnel. Was this a tunnel at one point with tracks? or provision for an extension in the future that was never built?
Could you be seeing the place where the Nassau St Loop used to merge in from the south as it headed over the bridge? I admit, that's sort of the reverse of what you're describing (a tunnel merging in rather than one splitting off).
You mean the old Nassau loop tracks?
I think there was a "Canal Street" line planned, but I don't know if that is what you are looking at.
My mistake, not the Nassau Street part. Brooklyn bound on the Q/W after 14th Street: after th line drops a level and turns east, before you enter Canal street, there are 2 stub, thats what I meant
The 2 stubs, visible from the western part of Canal Street platform (Last car Bklyn Bound; First car Astoria bound)
"…Was this a tunnel at one point with tracks? or provision for an extension to continue under Canal in the future that was never built?"
The original plans were for trains from the Manhattan Bridge to continue across Canal to the Hudson. Broadway expresses, instead of going over the bridge, would run straight into the City Hall lower level and continue south from there, while locals would terminate on the upper level at City Hall. Evidence of the former is the stub west of the Canal express platform. Evidence of the latter is the pair of "express" tracks awkwardly beginning in the middle of the Canal local station and continuing to CH lower, and also the drop on the CH upper (through) tracks south of the station.
Thanks alot :) was wondering about the City Hall section too.
The original tilework at the station said "Broadway" with a wooden sign that said "Canal St" above it.
Yes, the original mosaics under the new wall (and 70's tile) on the Canal "bridge" station say "Broadway". When they were rehabbing the station while it was abandoned (when the Manhattan Bridge was closed to the Broadway line) they had a piece of the 70's tile removed and I saw the mosaic "B's" on the upper mosaic band near the ceiling. Unfortunately, it wasn't a part of the wall with the name tablets. Does anyone know of any photos of the station before the 70's tile went up, that shows the original tablets saying "Broadway"?
A lot of casual observers think of the NYC Subways as the combination of three separate, competing systems. That isn't exactly accurate. As we know, the IRT and BRT competed for contracts to build and operate lines, contracts awarded by the City. And, the IND was, in part, designed to replace or compete with lines operated by those private companies when politics changed under the Hylan administration. So, we are left with a lot of interesting provisions for lines not built or awarded to the that company.
In addition to the aforementioned provisions on the Broadway line between City Hall and Canal, there were provisions for the BMT to run to the Upper West Side from 57th & 7th, later used for the 63rd Street Line, and south of Whitehall to go to some other tunnel to Brooklyn or SI. The IRT had provisions out of Nevins in case they were awarded the 4th Avenue subway contract.
Are there other examples other than the IND Second System or 76th Street, which have been talked to death here? I can think of only some IND options to replace, rather than recapture, elevated like beyond Church Avenue and Euclid (76th Street!).
I've pointed out a trackway, or possibly a platform, adjacent to the IRT 2/3 tracks just north of 96th, from where the tracks are low enough for there to be room for a third to the rightward curve. I don't know what that's about.
The original plans had the BMT running in two separate tunnels under 59th and 60th. AFAIK, the only part of the 59th tunnel that was actually built was at Lex itself; it now functions as an underpass for the 6.
Why the f__k did they withdrawal through cars on the Lake Shore to Columbus, Indianapolis and St Louis??? It's no fun transferring onto a Greyhound bus at 4.20am. GRRRRR!!!!
*sigh* Can't they generate enough revenue out of that corridor? There's currently no way of getting from New York to St Louis except via Chicago.
AEM7
Yup, there's no more National Limited through Pennsy either. This website might interest you: 3-C Corridor Plans and Possiblities
It's a useless local scheme. Who is going to take a train that stops in GALION and CARDINGTON on the way to COLUMBUS?
been like that since the route cuts in '79 IIRC. Service in Ohio is really skeletal, as with many other areas. Ohio has not been willing/able to do a 403b train so unlike NY or CA the only routes are long hauls planned for convenience elswhere.
It's not a matter of withdrawal; I don't believe the Lake Shore (at least Amtrak's version) ever carried through cars to points southwest of Cleveland. It has always been a Boston/New York-Chicago service.
In the NYC years, Cincinnati and St. Louis traffic was generally handled on separate trains, not as split-off sections from Chicago trains.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
actually a look at the Guide for Sept 62 shows the Ohio State Ltd carrying St. Louis cars which become a separate train west of Cleveland
I was dismayed to find out the other day that carguy's site about rail transit in Washington DC was gone. I looked everywhere for it - GWU's robots.txt excluded it from Archive.org - and I just can't find it (searching Google gave me a bunch of unrelated results). Does anybody know if it's been relocated, or maybe how to reach carguy? That was one of the best sites about DC rail. Thanks.
Anyone? Bueller?
Does anybody remember the site I'm talking about? It was a really great site and it's a loss to many people if it's gone.
Thanks to Anon_e_mouse I found a SubTalk post about the Archive.org copy of the site. The post is just a couple of months old, but unfortunately GWU implemented their robots.txt after that, and Archive.org dutifully deleted all archives retroactively. I've saved sites from Archive.org just to have them as a reference - I don't suppose anybody did that in this case? Does anybody remember the name of the guy who ran the site? I'm having a hard time locating him. (I just tried e-mailing carguy@gwu.edu but there's no response yet.) Thanks.
Is anyone else having problems getting into Trever Logins TransitTalk site? Everytime I try even from this site keeps saying not available.I really enjoy that site. Thanks for any imput.
Trevor Logan's site has not been up fully for several months.
funny i never have any problems. maybe cause u keep putting Transitalk.com. its now Transitalk.org. its got lots of new great pics.
Thats true, he did announce that though.
I have no problem at all accessing the site.
Hi,
TransitTalk has been redesigned and open for your viewing pleasure. Please note that the URL has changed slightly though. It is:
http://www.transitalk.org
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
See this advisory. How is the 5 turning at 149-GC?
I see three options. It could be switching north of 149-GC and changing ends in the station, but that would tie up 2 service. It could be relaying on the middle track at 135/Lenox, finally putting that track to good use. Or it could be staying in service all the way to 96/Broadway or Times Square, with 3 trains running local. Anybody know?
One possibility is that the trains will go to 138th St/GC middle where the T/O will change ends and head back uptown.
The other possibility is that #2 service will be delayed slightly as they use the switches between 149th/3rd and 149th/GC to send the train back towards Dyre.
"The other possibility is that #2 service will be delayed slightly as they use the switches between 149th/3rd and 149th/GC to send the train back towards Dyre."
But presumably those are exactly the switches or track they are working on. The only piece of the 5 route not still covered by the 5 or the 4 during the GO is the interconnection between 149th and 138th. If you can send trains along that piece, why not just send the 5 on its regular route?
Look at the 4 GO for the same time period: split service at 125. The work seems to be on one of the 4/5 tracks at 125 itself. It's already a pain to turn 4's from the Bronx at 125, and there's no need to add the 5 to the mess.
So probably they are turning the 5 at 135th. If they were running it to 96th they probably would have said so. Sure makes a trip from Dyre Ave to (say) E 86th St pretty miserable.
>>But presumably those are exactly the switches or track they are working on.<<
If that were the case then the #2 would just as adversly affected by the trackwork.
>>The only piece of the 5 route not still covered by the 5 or the 4 during the GO is the interconnection between 149th and 138th. If you can send trains along that piece, why not just send the 5 on its regular route?<<
If memory serves they have been working on the 125th St station refurbishing. As well as in and around the tracks just south of the station (a lot of electrical conduits being installed). Last weekend the downtown express track was roped off. The uptown 4 empties out at 125th and is sent up the #6 line to reverse at 138th/3rd middle track.
I imagine this will be the case this weekend. Soon they will be installing the new tile panels on the station walls. That will also necessitate closing off of the express track at 125th.
I'd be inclined to say 138th St-GC. If the middle track at 138th St isn't being used as part of the 4 GO, than this would seem most likely.
-Stef
Option #4 - It terminates on the SB track at 149 St, while the 2 single tracks through the station on the northbound track.
its gonna relay on the middle track on the 4 line.thats how i've always seen it done and that is the best way too.
Last time I saw them turning 4 trains at 138th Street on the 6. That's probably what they'll do.
Of course. I was asking how trains from the north were being turned, in particular the 5, not the 4.
Saw an R40M on the N this morning for the first time since the 70s. #s were 4450-4463 with a few gaps in between. Are these going to replace something else, or are they additions?
They are probably "transplants" from the L line now that the R143's are starting to slowly take over that line.
That's cool. IMO, much better than R-68's. Yay, railfan window!
They are to replace R32's which will be going to Jamaica, and Pitkin, and possibly send a few more R68's to Concourse, but likely doubtful since there are a plentiful there. R68's are on the B, D, and Q, and the R68A's are on the Q sometimes, and W full time. R42's will eventually make its place on the N and Q diamond.
back in 1999-2000, R40Ms were VERY common on the N, that i am 100% sure
ps- i like r68s better than r40m xD
Me too, but they will be on the Q.
Didn't see it on the N, but saw a set of 42s signed up as Q circle going across the Manhattan Bridge.
Probably TA is adding R40M into the mixed bag.
might as well since its not quit time to throw them out yet. in my opinion the 42s have the best heat and air conditioning in the fleet.
also the r40m
So does R32. I just hope TA will keep R42 amd R32 fleets running R160 began dominate the system.
Well I operated north Motor 4455 R40 m on the Q diamond this afternoon,it was then sent to the yard .There are now 3 R 40m's for the N line ,These are straight R40m's no R 42's mixed in and the Door enable has been deactivated.
what does a door enable do?
never heard of it before.
T/O pushes a button which allow the c/r to open doors. R42's and R44's have them as well as the R142, 142A & R143's.
Here in London a system called CSDE Correct Side Door Enable is used, the doors can only be released on the platform side when the head end car picks up a signal from trackside equipment.This prevents deliberate wrong side opening or opening wrong side in error especially where the platform is not on the left (operators side) or the cctv screens are not on the platform side. To override the sysyem a cut out swithch is provided (sealed) on the headwall and this means the operator would have to leave the cab to operate it.
A far cry from the last crew operated 1959/62 stock when the guard had to move from side to side and release doors using his/her route knowledge/memory!
Rob
I've long wondered why a similar system hasn't been installed in NYC -- with one sensor per door, not per train. If reliable, it would instantly transform overshoots from safety violations to customer service violations, and it would allow the middle six cars (rather than the front five cars, with a transverse cab blocking access from the rest of the train) to open at the short platforms at South Ferry and 145th.
...and SOME r-68s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Which R-68s? I'm not aware that the Door Enable program has been started on the R-68 series (frankly, I hope it hasn't and doesn't...).
David
I might be wrong,
I hope I am.
Peace,
ANDEE
...and SOME r-68s.
Peace,
ANDEE
Door enablers in the R40M's are not deactivated, they were never installed, except in 4460 which is married to 4465, the survivors of the Willy B wreck. This pair will stay at ENY routes.
The mismate at East New York is R-40M 4660 with MK R-42 4665.
Technically its an R-42, which is why I presume it will remain at ENY (perhaps until the R-160s arrive?). For roster purposes they are officially separate. That's why TA "official" rosters show 99 R-40M and 391 R-42--in reality not possible. On the "railfan roster" its carried as an R-40M.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
4450 to 4463 is 14 cars. This would be 12 cars as 4460 stays at ENY and 4461, a victim of the WillyB crash, is being converted to a slant. One 10 car train with 2 spare cars.
I have been noticingfar fewer mixed 40m/42 consists on the B'way el and Canarsie lately. Also, I had speculated that the train of 42s I saw "not in service" on the B'way local southbound at 34th St. was testing for something. Now we know.
I noticed that on the P42 Locomotive, that it is all computerized, is the P40 also like that? And Why wasn't the F59PHI Locomotive computerized like the P42? The F59PHI is newer than those Loco's.
Define computerized as in to what degree.
For example:
The F59 uses computers to track the engine performance amoung others. Its electrical system uses replaceable moduals that have been around since 1972.
What I mean is that I was looking at some pics of the Phase V P42 Locomotive and the Control Board look like the Acela Controls, it has 2 Computer Screens right there, why wasn't the F59PHI equipped with this?
This is available, if the customer request it (like the dulux radio package on a car.
Some F59's do have it, if it is requested and the buyer is willing to pay for the extras.
Are all P42 like this? And do the P40 have this feature?
Here is a link about air brake systems and e-brakes.
http://upcrossroads.railspot.com/67airbk.htm
I never been aboard a P40/P42 so I can't say for sure.
Phil these days all locomotives are computer controlled for EPA and efficiency purpose, some locomotives still have a analog display stand with a computer in cabinets behind the operator.
it does not make to much diffence how you display the info needed to run the locomotive but with the computer in front of you you can see everything the locomotive does and should do, a analog uinit does not.
some F59PHI have computerised displays and all GE P32acdm/P40/P42 units and most of the freight units after the 44-8 line.
some customers are die hards and keep ordering the aar stand vs the Desk display with computers.
the MNCW and LIRR M-7 has a simular display were everything is on 2 screens.
Who paid for them? The states of California and Washington bought the F59PHIs that bear Amtrak's name, and I don't think Amtrak directly owns any of them. Additionally, the P40/42 are ground-up new designs, where the F59PHI is a generational upgrade from previous models. It may not be capable of interfacing with the newer computerization equipment.
-Hank
I was away from here for a while, and I didn't see any other posts on this topic (strange, considering how many posts there are every month about the Manhattan Bridge work).
Beginning Aug. 1, the Manhattan Bound upper level has been closed for construction. It should be noted that this is the same construction that happened on the southern third of the bridge much earlier.
Does this mean that we'll also have work similar to the '95 work that closed the bridge ENTIRELY Middays and weekends? (I don't really think so, but I was just throwing that out there.)
Here is a sort of parody on March Madness, except instead of choosing the top college hoops team, you choose the hottest woman in the world. Hey, it's a fun way to kill some time.
By the way, the championship round was very difficult for me, it came down to Salma Hayek vs. Alicia Silverstone, before I finally went with the latter.
Most Excellent----Halle Berri won mine---
I also did the Toon Tourney
A bit off topic ? Maybe sharing a railfan window with Salma Hayek would put it back on topic !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe sharing a railfan window with Salma Hayek would put it back on topic !!
According to that site, she's only 5'2", so most people could look over her head and still get a good view of the tracks :)
Ive noticed on the westbound el platform there are stairs underneath the stairs in use, and are fenced off by chain link. Where do they go? To the trolley station adjacent to the el station?
Just thought people might want to know, when the PA starts AIRTRAIN test runs, you can see it live without leaving home. You can also see the 7 Line as it normally runs all day, just go to nyctmc.org for the webcams!
The Electric Railroaders Association has a mid week "Inspection Trip" schedule for Wednesday 28 Aug 2002.
We're down to 5 postings per hour and dropping.
I read so little Subtalk now, that I don't even bother to click on posts I won't read so that they appear visited.
I just finished uploading the better photos of the D-Type fantrip taken on May 27, 2002 (Yeah I know Im lazy). Posted below is the link to the page. If anyone has any problrems let me know. And sign my guestbook. Also my other photos are there too. Have fun.
http://community.webshots.com/user/tony3271
Here are some more of my pics, this time depicting the SETPA Wayne Jct. shops and Robert's Yard.
First is a quick pic of Amtrak's Fast Mail trail unloading at New Haven. The mail cars are en-route to Springfield MA.
Here is a shot of an R62 on the 7 train as it passes over F interlocking.
Here is a shot of the Astoria El from the Amtrak Hell Gate Line. Note there are 3 trains in the shot.
Here is a pic of SEPTA Silverliner II entering Robert's Yard as part of a long deadhead train.
This is a comparason shot of a Silverliner II and Silverliner III
Here is former LIRR Alco FA unit #615, now used by SEPTA to powrer its rail traction goop train.
Here is a SEPTA maintainer preforming some dangerous work.
Here's the Saturday linup at Robert's Yard. NOTE: All the old fogeys in my NRHS group (ie everyone but myself) decided to drive the 1000 feet from the yard office to the shop complex so I was the only one who got good pictures of the yard.
I found this amusing.
SEPTA is so rife with Budd products that they are blocking access to the yard!
Here's what makes a Silverliner go. A big GE DC traction motor. Note the brushes.
Wow, very good pics, very crisp and clean, damn good job. I especially likes the one of the Silverliner II and III, me being quite silverliner ignorant, thought that all the IIs were gone, guess I was wrong. Thanks for sharing those.
SEPTA still uses something like 58 Budd Silverliner II's. There are 20 St; Louis Silverliner III's and 250 GE Silverliner IV's.
is there any sight that has all of the different railroad passenger equipment used in the us?
Does anyone know if the R160 will have transverse seating like the early R's (1-16, and 44-110B), or if it will be like the R143, and such fleets as the R27-R42?
It'll probably be like the R142\a, 143. There is not enough room for transverse seating like the R68\A's. These cars will be only 60' long, not 75'.
the 10/16s were 60/6 and had cross seating
All R-classes before the R27 had the perpendicular seating like the R44/46/68/68A/110B
:-) Andrew
...Uh that is, except for the IRT R-class cars, R12, R14, R15, R17, R21, R22, R26, yada yada yada.
:-) Andrew
The R110A's transverse seats were a joy to sit on during it's brief run. In my book, a foward facing window seat is the "true" railfan window.
I wonder if they'd consider a seating plan like the R10/16 had. It has it's benifits. It prevents one fatass or one rude moron from using more bench space than his butt requires. This is a huge problem on the R40/42's, as the benches can usually seat 6, but people normally occupy so much space that no more than 5 fill the bench. With transverse seating, you define and limit the amount of space one seated person can take. It's also a deterrment to homeless people sleeping on the bench as if it were a bed.
Every B division car from the R1 to R16 had transverse seating, and these cars were 60' long. It's possible, but the current R143 bench seating will probably prevail.
It will most likely be seated like the R-143, these cars are gonna be 60' long and will virtually look identical to the R-143.
I was told by the TSS while in School Car for the R143's that all new are will have all seats against the wall.
Robert
It makes perfect sense on the IRT, because of the width of the car, but to me, it seems silly on the IND cars. I would think having seats transversely mounted would allow greater seating capacity. Also, I think it's time for the subway to experiment with some sort of padded seating again. The gel-coated seats in the R-142's are horrible! On a sudden stop, passengers fly out of their seats.
These things seem to go in cycles. The R-143s in 2002 are to the B Division what the R-27/30s were to it 42 years ago -- a change from the long time seating design of the Standards and the R-1/9, R-10, R-11, R-16s. Presumably, the change was made for the same reason the change is being made today, in order to get more standing room in each car (though functionally, the logitudinal seating on the R-27/30s allowed for underseat placement of all the heaters).
That lasted through 10 years of production and nearly 2,000 new subway cars, until the old seating arrangment returned with the R-44s. If history repeats itself, we'll go through another 2,000 or so new cars with logintudinal seating, until sometime around 2025 when the R-68s come up for replacment. Then someone in the design shop will get the great idea to make the seating in the new cars look just like the ones they're replacing, the same way the R-44 layout was similar to the R-1/4 cars they replaced.
It seems the newer these cars get, the more mundane the design. As far as I'm concerned, absolutely NO thought went into the design of the R-160. It's a box, plain and simple. Not unlike the Orion V CNG's which replaced our beloved Fishbowls and Flx New Looks.
Tomorrow we're leaving on a week's trip to Arizona, so I won't be posting much if at all until we get back (dunno if the place where we'll be staying will have Internet access). It's too bad the Phoenix light rail won't be running for a few more years.
you can go downtown to the CENTRAL STATION where a PCC trolley and i think a MAC bus areon display !!
At night it is lit up ....the station and the buses take good pictures
if you bring your camera....Mostly Metro Buses that is..!!
Train Spotting Is Excellent In The Flagstaff area along Route 66 & The BNSF Mainline (BNSF, BN, ATSF & Amtrak Southwest Chief) also along I - 10 From Casa Grande Thru Tucson to The New Mexico Border along the Union Pacific Main Line (UP, SP & Amtrak Sunset Limted/Texas Eagle), Also on Weekends there is the Old Pleblo Street Car Line along 4th Avenue in Downtown Tucson.
is that the route we took on amtraks SouthwestChief ...??
it does sound similar !!
You won`t need a lot of clothing. 112 degrees tomorrow. You`ll see when you step into the jetway or out of the terminal. Have a pleasant stay. trains61 a.k.a. Paul
wait a minute you are going to tucson ??
i do beleive there is a museum trolley ride there isnt there ??
@ nothing in phx. yet but heat !!!
The following is an e-mail I received today. I'm not posting my opinion on it because I've learned sometime ago not to post my opinion about anything on this board, which is why I don't post often. I do, however, wish to know what others think about it. Here it is in its entirity:
How To Ride (Or NOT Ride) The NYC Subway
------------------------------------------------------
In three years in working as a Conductor and a Train Operator, I have witnessed an amazing amount of dumb and stupid things performed by the passengers. I used the word "performed" because it is hard to believe that any thinking person would actually do these sort of things on their own - somewhere there must be somebody paying these people to act this stupid for everyone else's amusement. Herewith, a collection of ideas to ride the subway safely. These are all easy things that should be obvious to any 6 year old (Please note: my six year old daughter understood the reasoning behind these. She's eight now and is still amazed by what people do down there).
* Do NOT use your babies as doorstops. Babies are soft and squishy; doors are hard and heavy. Seems kind of obvious, no?
* Do NOT hold the doors open with your wallet. I watched this stunt the other day. The fool missed his train anyway and lost his wallet (because someone inside the train took it).
* Do NOT hold the doors open with a coffee cup, especially when wearing a white suit.
* A train sitting in the station with the doors open is an invitation for you to get on. Do not wander the station looking for your favorite doorway or stand and stare at the train as if you never saw one before. This tells the crew that you are not ready to board and will get you no pity if you miss the train.
* All the doors on a train always stop at all stations. This tidbit is useful in a number of different ways: when traveling with a group, use more than one doorway; when lots of people are exiting from your chosen doorway, but no one is using the next one, move to the unused doorway.
* If you hold the doors for your friends, DON'T bitch to the crew about slow service - YOU are the reason.
* If you see UNIFORMED workers in orange vests on the platforms, listen to them . They can be a font of information if you PAY ATTENTION.
* If you see UNIFORMED workers in orange vests on the platforms, ask them your questions. Don't wait for the train to arrive to ask the train crew.
* When you are asking for directions, ASK the question you REALLY want answered.
* If we ask you WHERE you are going, give us the station name, NOT a wonderfully vague answer like Brooklyn.
* KNOW where you are going. We can get you to any station you want, but we DON'T know where every address is relative to a subway stop.
* READ the red and white service notices.
* When train crew make announcements that start "Ladies and gentlemen. . .", LISTEN. This opening is almost always followed by changes or delays in train service that you might want to know about.
* If you stick your head in the Conductor's face while he is making an announcement, DON'T be surprised if you get attitude back. The next stop was just announced, and if you had been LISTENING instead of being rude, you would have heard it.
* While wearing headphones, DON'T approach a Conductor and say, "You didn't make an announcement about. . ." when what you really mean is "I didn't hear the announcement. How do I . . ."
* DON'T pull the Emergency Brake Cord UNLESS the train is in a station. Most emergencies are better dealt with where emergency personnel can reach the train.
* DON"T rollerblade in the subway. If you go off the edge of the platform, the crew gets three days off. You get the rest of your life off. The same holds true for bicycles and scooters.
* DON'T play chicken with the train. Someday you will lose.
* DON'T take flash pictures of the front of an arriving train. The flash leaves the Train Operator blinded; do you really want a blind person operating the train you are riding on?
* DON'T walk on or cross the subway tracks. The only thing that belongs on subway tracks are subway trains. I, personally, will feel no remorse if I hit you with my train; after all, you didn't belong there.
* If you are in the Bronx, Manhattan, or Brooklyn, the train DOES stop at 42nd Street. The odds are quite good that no matter where you are, the train will stop at 42nd Street. There are only four lines that don't - the G, J, L, and M.
For those of you that can abide by these suggestions, also pick up a copy of the MTA's Rules Of Conduct. Breaking these rules may get you into trouble and possibly thrown out of the system.
That's been circulating around for years. Sorry.
Perhaps, but it was new to me. And I still want to know what everyone else thinks about it.
Too bad that, when circulating here, it often "preaches to the choir." Maybe it should be handed to anyone who buys a MetroCard...
And in TEENY TINY print that makes them go BLIND. :)
Are you kidding? Passengers remind me of something Rhett said to Scarlett:
"You never see anything that isn't written in letters three feet high and shoved under your nose, do you?"
Mvh Tim
odds are quite good that no matter where you are, the train will stop at 42nd Street. There are only four lines that don't - the G, J, L, and M.
And the Z, and the Franklin Shuttle, and the Rockaway Shuttle, and the Grand Street Shuttle.
(Wizeass? You bet!)
:-) Andrew
I just knew someone was going to add the other trains that don't stop at 42nd. Thanks for proving me right, Andy! LOL
Been there, done that. Transit doesn't consider shuttles as 'lines'; for the sake of this, neither did the author. As for the Z - it's just a J in disguise.
* All the doors on a train always stop at all stations...
Except, of course, South Ferry. (Assuming normal service patterns on the 1/9 lines.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
and 145 on the 3
You all didn't read the footnote, did ya?
Which footnote?
Sorry. Two items were clipped off the bottom. For the complete text go here - http://home.att.net/~alabianca/howtoride.html
Isn't that on "Alex L."'s website? I'm guessing he came up with it, since some of the rules are from his story on this site, but I could very well be mistaken.
A nice policy...
If only everyone followed it, we wouldn't have problems on the subways on a daily basis.
[Do NOT use your babies as doorstops. Babies are soft and squishy; doors are hard and heavy. Seems kind of obvious, no?]
It seems to me that using babies as doorstops should be prosecutable as child abuse/endangerment, no?
Yeah, but how do prove it? Leave the doors closed on the babies head? That puts the Conductor in more danger than the parent.
You'd think so. One of the routine things I remember about living in the Bronx was women pushing BABY CARRIAGES out into MOVING traffic when they felt like crossing the street. And there were MANY close calls to boot. You'd think, eh? :)
One of the routine things I remember about living in the Bronx was women pushing BABY CARRIAGES out into MOVING traffic when they felt like crossing the street.
Only in the Bronx ;-) Here in Astoria they do that all the time from BETWEEN Parked Vans no less. It would work if the baby in question just dropped in from the planet Krypton.
So I am not surprised at all when I see babies used as door stops on the subway.
They also make great wheel chocks if the parking brake chain is busticated. :)
I'm not posting my opinion on it because I've learned sometime ago not to post my opinion about anything on this board
What made you learn that? Some of the most interesting things on this board are opinions.
I don't post my opinions because I've seen how some people get when they wholeheartedly disagree with you. Instead of simply agreeing to disagree or respecting everyone's viewpoint even if not in agreement, some people respond by either being critical and judgmental or being just plain nasty. Sorry, but I'd just as soon keep my opinions to myself.
Yeah, but when people "respond by either being critical and judgmental or being just plain nasty" then you can yell at them and put them in their place. That's one of the fun things about posting on a board like this. Hopefully the offender will get the idea and just leave for good.
--Brian
That is unforunate - I don't think it should stop you posting your opinions, but, as ever, you are entitled to your opinion!
I happen to like it. But then again, as someone pointed out, I wrote it. One of these days, I'll even go back and on some more 'stupid people tricks' - like running face first into already closed doors in the hopes that they will magically re-open before you hit them. Now that you have my opinion, let's hear yours.
* Don't have your nose stuck in a book the whole ride, then as the doors are about to close at your station, look up and realize this is your stop and then jump up and push everyone out of the way as you run off the train
* Don't board the train and immediatly stop and stand by the door when there are people behind you that need to get on
* Don't walk through the train asking for money. It is annoying.
* Don't change out of your bathing suit on the subway
* Don't spit on the tracks as the subway is pulling in. It's disgusting.
* Don't throw garbage on to the tracks
* Don't have a make-out session with your lover on the train. And if you do, don't get all mad that everyone is watching you.
* Don't let your reject kid bang on the door or window of the motorman's cab with an umbrella or similar tool (I've seen this)
I'll think of some more
At 47/50, i once saw someone try to hold the dors open with their bag, the doors closed on the bag and didnt reopen, the person held on as the train started, hoping to pull out the bag, the handles came off, and as the train left the station, the bag disapeared into the car :)
In other words, the train wound up holding the bag.:)
At CI tonight, I saw under the B74 bus stop label another label saying F shuttle bus to Ave X.
>>At CI tonight, I saw under the B74 bus stop label another label saying F shuttle bus to Ave X.<<
Looks likes the TA is gearing up for the big Stillwell Shutdown !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah. They've replaced somewhere in the area of 20 parking spots with bus stops - a bunch along Stillwell Ave across from the station and 5 on Neptune between Stillwell and the HIP parking lot.
Well I got back home at 11:30pm, about 3 hours after I left the "Turquoise" bar. The bus ride was fine, took an N15 (#192) to Hempstead bus terminal than an N41 (#311) to Mineola. Got to Mineola at 9:45pm, just an hour from when I left Mineola. It's the trek from there to Sea Cliff that's a bitch.
First, I used the new LIRR TVM they installed near the stationhouse. I put my quarters in, it rejects some but after a few times it took them, and then the display says I haven't put any $$ in, I hit cancel and get no money back. Damn the TVM ate my money again (this has happened to me before, $3 that I eventually got back from LIRR, because I reported it). This was only a dollar but I was pissed, fuming mad. First the Metrocard delays, lose money on that. There were a bunch of trendy ladies who went after me, and it rejected their money but at least they got theirs back. They asked me what happened and I said "the damn thing ate my money, and that was all I had". I wasn't going to give LIRR any more money, so I said they can throw me off the train I refuse to pay again. Fortunately the trendies gave me a dollar out of sympathy. I saw other ppl having trouble with that TVM, so I put a sign on it saying "do not use quarters, machine will eat them". I saw another couple having trouble with an old LIRR TVM on the e/b platform.
But the bad luck was just beginning. Started waiting on the eastbound platform at 10:10pm, for the train scheduled to depart at 10:20pm to Oyster Bay. We wait and wait. At 10:30pm still no train. I see lights in the distance looking toward the west but they are approaching extremeley slowly. At 10:37pm an MU pulls in, this was the 10:17pm, 20 minutes behind schedule. At 10:42pm the Oyster Bay train finally pulls in. Of course I didn't have a clue what was going on, there were no announcements.
The rest of the slow, dark ride to Sea Cliff was OK, and the conductor didn't even show his face to collect tickets. My train gets to Sea Cliff at 11:05pm, and I walk back to my place in the darkness, and it is dark, you can't see a foot in front of you in some places! Walk in the door, tired and sweaty, at 11:30pm.
I am back and tired from my fun day of railfanning. I met up with Thurston in Flushing-Main street at around 3:45pm, and another railfan joined us before we got on a Redbird leaving at 4pm. We stopped off at Woodside and 46th st for some photo ops, then took an R62A with a railfan window for the ride to Times Square. Along the way more railfans joined us at Grand Central.
From Times Square we waited not to long for an R38 A to arrive, just behind the C running on the express track (as per G.O.).
The ride on the A was fast, and we took it to Jay street. Unfortunately Livingston st office was closed so we couldn't get to see the simulator. We met up with a few more folks at Burger King and Jay street subway station, where we waited A while for an R38 A train. well we never got one, had to take an R44 Rhino to Rockaway Blvd, for another Rhino to Far Rockaway. It did get good speed on the flats tho.
We managed to just make the N33 bus (actually there was a few minutes, but some of us like the thrill of running for the bus). Far Rockaway was as I remember the last time, very seedy, garbage (and broken glass) everywhere. Also LIPA has installed new transmission line in triangular configuration along the ROW.
The N33 ride was nice. The a/c wasn't on but unlike last time we got a bus with a smoother Cummins L10G engine. Well it was comfortable though, as nature's a/c (the sea breeze) kept things cool.
At Long Beach we walked on over to Turqoise and I had soda (no beer, i like to stay sober). Kinda noisy in there to carry on a good conversation tho. I left early, and my second adventure began. :-)
That's in another post. :-0
Glad to hear you and the other subtalkers had such a good trip! I would have joined you, but I'm already going to be in NYC tomorrow night and was unable to stay over somewhere on Friday. But sounds like a fun trip, especially for summer. :-) -Nick
John, you forgot to mention my late arrival at Jay Street which made the group miss an R-38 to Far Rockaway. I was being detained at fare-control by security agents of the NYCT...(Joke for Howard Fein).
BTW, the 'other railfan' you met on the Flushing Line was (1)SouthFerry(9) (aka Carlos). Good to have ran into Carlos again as I see he doesn't post here all that often.
Ha-ha, very funny. I get the joke. Hope you got home okay. It must've been a real long haul from Long Beach at that hour. I must say, doing the trip on a Friday night removed a lot of the pressure of having to get home early for work the next day.
I was pretty tired myself: Drove from Flushing to work in LIC; Drove out to Long Beach; LIRR to Flatbush Terminal; walk to Jay Street; subway to Far Rock; bus to Long Beach. Not one of my longest or most convoluted trips, but I was READY for a beer after all that.
Had to change LIRR trains at Jamaica and made it all the way to Flatbush without having my ticket punched. Wonder if I can use the same ticket to ride from Jamaica to Penn or Brooklyn a second time? Only the top part of the ticket was punched (right BEFORE the train from Long Beach arrived at Jamaica!), with two crescent-moon shapes. From what I hear the conductors use a different-shaped set of punches every day. An astute conductor might notice the wrong shapes punched from the 'first' train. After the wringer I was put through by NJT inspectors for being 15 minutes later than the validation time on my Newark LRV ticket, I'm hesitant to try it.
Oh, and don't feel bad about making us miss an R38. Only one passed by- and it was a Lefferts.
what the heck? enjoying Long Beach huh? i go there often since my brother lives there.next time you go,i'll gladly show you around. as best as i can
There were seven of us by the time we boarded the "A Train" at Jay Street (1/9 Carlos, Q-Dash 7, BMTman, Howard Fine, RIP HopeTunnel Mike, Harry Beck [hmmm host of another mass transit site does a SubTalk Field Trip !] and of course myself.
The BMTman presented Harry with a little Boston theme gift & we all wished him well this Fall at BC.
================> 2nd Section <=================
Yes we're going to do this trip one more time.
So for those that missed it look for the BMTman to post the date,
probably in September.
Thurston,
It was a great trip.
Just one correction- I am going to BU, not BC.
-Harry
I'm not actually displeased with the current service, infact I've never ridden the R1 yet, but I thought it might be something to think about, this may just be a result of a lack of sleep, or something, but bear with me.
Couldn't the 36 trolley in Philadelphia be extended to Philly International? I mean it turns around on Island Ave just before the R1 tracks, could we just lay a few miles of track down island, under 95 and then down 291? It'd get everyone right to the airport, with headway a heck of a lot less than the R1, admittedly it's a good deal out of the way.
Alright, don't like that one, then how bout this: Extend the BSS under 95, or maybe Penrose after a quick east-west run under Pattison, I would say to hang it from the bottom of the Girard Pt bridge, but I don't think it could take the weight, so a tunnel would be in order under the Schuylkill river. The BSS need not even take up surface space, it'd just zip under the terminals, making all the stops that the R1s do. I'd say this one is more expensive, but in the end a much better proposal.
The R1 runs every half hour 7 days a week. Some cars are even modified to hold more luggage. Nobody would EVER ride the Rt 36 trolley to get to the airport. It would take forever and serve the downtown market already served by the R1. In case you forgot, the poor people who live along the Rt 36 tracks outside of the downtown area DO NOT TRAVEL MUCH BY PLANE IF AT ALL.
There were plans long ago to extend the 36 to Cargo City (behind the Airport in Tinicum). The idea was more to benefit employees working at the Airport (many of whom could easily benefit from the extension) than travelers. Even today there are many flight crews who have apartments/suites in the Korman complexes in the Island/Lindbergh area who would greatly benefit from a 36 extension, which would only take 10 minutes or so to get to the Airport from that location. (Ask a 108 or 305 bus driver how many of these folks use those lines - more than one might think.)
SEPTA has plans to extend 36 to at least the current Eastwick station on R1, which would be redeveloped as the Eastwick Transit Center.
That makes sense.
There are enough people who work at the airport so that, for example, you want to deliver them to the cargo and US mail/Fedex facilities, not necessarily the passenger areas.
What? I thought the plans wre to relocate Eastwick Station to Island Avenue, and re-route all route 37, 68, and 108 service to the new transit center (Before heading down Lindbergh Blvd/84th Street (37, 108) or Bartram Ave. (68) to reach PNC Center, that is.)
In addition, didn't thy also plan on something using the recently completed stretch of Hog Island Road that would involve restoring route 68 service into the airport?
Knowing SEPTA, they'd go through with both, but completely forget to time each run so that you can get from the R1 trains to the buses serving PNC with no problems... though I think most people heading from downtown to PNC/Airport Interplex itself take the BSL to the 68 at Oregon. As far as actually getting to the airport, the R1 does it well. Taking either the Market-Frankford Line to the 108 at 69th Street or the BSL to the 37 at Snyder Ave. takes WAY too long, and the 37 doesn't always go past PNC Center. The R1 is the best way, if a bit pricey.
No, the proposed Transit Center is closer to 84th St. The 37, 68 and 108 (as well as 36 and 305) would all pass through it on their ways to their terminals (with 36's and some 37's which now short-turn at 84th & Crane ending at the Center).
In the original planning for the Airport line stations were proposed for 70th St and 84th St. Island Ave, perhaps the major route crossing the line in Eastwick, would have made sense, but there was no land available in the area to build parking, etc, and 70th/84th offered more possibilities. As it stands now, 70th is, as far as I know, out of the future plans, but 84th will materialize as the Transit Center.
68 is a very strange line on SEPTA as it carries most of its riders on a number of 'owl' expresses between Pattison station and UPS. Its 'peak hour' occurs about 3 AM!
*68 is a very strange line on SEPTA as it carries most of its riders on a number of 'owl' expresses between Pattison station and UPS. Its 'peak hour' occurs about 3 AM!*
Please don't remind me.... I'm on vacation this week...
But it's free with a transpass. They're supposed to charge a peak zone 5 fare all the time, but in practice the conductors honor city zone transpasses.
Mark
The Airport is a Zone 5 station but Eastwick is Zone 2. I don't take the Airport line very frequently but when I have the conductors have always been very diligent about getting the proper fares, including the 'step-up' fare with a Transpass.
[...the poor people who live along the Rt 36 tracks outside of the downtown area DO NOT TRAVEL MUCH BY PLANE IF AT ALL.]
Perhaps, but maybe some of them WORK at the airport?
There is enough employment in and around PHL to justify fixed rail (trolley) service to these employment centers.
These are not just passenger concourses. They are: control tower, shipping/receiving for the airport; the Marriott; air cargo; Us Postal Service facility/Fedex/UPS/Airborne etc. and aerospace-related manufacturing around the area. A trolley (subway-surface car) line would carry a lot of passengers to their jobs.
I myself work at UPS, and they are WAY outta the way down Hog Island Road. The road itself is one lane only in either direction, no passing. Constructing a trolley line down there would totally impair vehicle access to anything on that stretch, plus there are a lot of curves. And rail lines generally take curves pretty slowly.
There are railroad tracks alongside Hog Island Road, but it's single track, and likely used for UPS Rail frieghts (which I've never actually seen), so Regional Rail service there is also out of the question.
I believe that rail line is now out of service. It used to serve the sewage treatment plant on Enterprise Ave, but a few years ago the plant switched to chlorine, etc deliveries via truck instead of rail. It's a very circuitous line which winds around Southwest Phila, mainly along the Schuylkill River. In true Phila fasion, it didn't last very long after the expensive tunnel carrying it and Hog Island Rd (which is called Fort Mifflin Rd in the city, by the way)under the new runway was completed.
It isn't out of service... the rails are well maintained, and I do see the occasionl train there. I just have no clue where it's going or coming from.
"Perhaps, but maybe some of them WORK at the airport?"
In Chicago, the CTA Blue and Orange Lines carry more workers going to and from O'Hare and Midway airports respectively than they do the actual flying public.
When you think about transit, you must investigate the whole market.
An example is reverse riding, which years ago was practically non-existant on most transit operations, but is now relevant and needs to be considered. Reverse riders actually help transit authorities to pick up extra revenue and better utilize their equipment - equipment is a big part of the cost of transit.
Jim K.
Chicago
I use the R1 every time I fly. Most of the R1 passengers work at the airport; relatively few of us have luggage.
The negative, returning to Philly, is if there's no NJT Atlantic City train leaving 30th Street Station soon after our arrival, we go to Market East and schlep our luggage to 8th & Market, to take PATCO to Lindenwold. The R1 works for us.
An interesting idea. Not sure if there's as much a market for it.
I personally would like to see the BSS extended to the Naval Shipyard. An extension along Roosevelt Blvd into Northeast Philly is in the planning stages.
Personally, I like an old idea that would extend the Broad Street subway south under the Delaware River to National Park, New Jersey. This might relieve congestion on the bridges over the river. In practical terms, I know this would be really expansive and require the co-operation of two states, but in a perfect world this would be a neat idea.
As for the Roosevelt Boulevard subway, that is a must. The latest plan calls for a subway with open-cut stations to save money. I hope it gets built, though I think it would have stood a better chance if Robert Borski wasn't being eleiminated from Congress.
Mark
Getting 2 states to work together can and does happen---Look at the DC Metro, you have the District, Maryland, Virginia, the Feds, and local governments (Montgomery & Prince George's Counties in Maryland and Arlington and Fairfax counties in Virginia, plus, the municipalities of Alexandria and Falls Church) ALL working together to create a mass transit system to be proud of.
It works here in Philly, too. Pennsylvania and New Jersey administer the Delaware River Port Authority that runs the PATCO trains running between Center City and South Jersey. In fact, I think they do a better job at running their train than SEPTA does, though PATCO is a much smaller and much more manageable operation.
Mark
The open-cut idea can work well. MBTA's Orange Line was built partly that way.
I like the idea of the open cut stations because it would let more light into the stations, and of course because making the subway cheaper increases its chances of being funded.
Mark
This is one of the options the Northeast Transit Study is considering, either an open-cut subway in the median or (even better) the 'dropping' of the center highway lanes into a cut with a subway in the median of the 'dropped' lanes, similar to Chicago. With all the pedestrian accidents on the Blvd, it would make a ton of sense to do this. Also, this helps funding-wise as it crosses the realm of Federal Highway and Federal Transit. This is how Denver is currently building its light rail extension, combining a highway expansion project with the light rail effort.
Last December the expressway-with-trench-railroad idea ("Option D") was officially scrapped in favor of Option C which called for an underground line and no expressway, and modified to include open-cut stations to save money. This became known as the "C-prime" option. There was considerable neighborhood opposition to an expressway, as I understand it. You can see a complete description of the Locally Preferred Alternative (C-prime) as well as the other options that were being considered at the project's website:
Roosevelt Boulevard Transportation Investment Study
Mark
I have not been to Philly in a number of years. The few trips I made there were mostly for sporting events at the Spectrum and the Vet; and at the time I made my trips there, I was traveling by car.
Anyway, I seem to remember what looked a like subway station entrance in the general area of the sport complex. I think I even recall someone telling me that subway service is extended to the sports complex area when events are held at one of the venues. I looked at the route map of the Philly subway on this site and couldn't tell if that is or is not true. If anyone could provide any information on this, it would be greatly appreciated.
The Broad St Subway goes to Pattison, its southern terminal, which is adjacent to the 'Sports Complex' (Veterans Stadium, Spectrum, First Union Center). It will be a slightly longer walk to the new baseball park and Lincoln Financial Field (football) when they open in spring 04/fall 03, respectively.
The Subway serves Pattison at all times. From roughly 5 AM to 1 AM it operates rail service, with a bus substitute in the overnight ('owl') hours.
Pattison was also built with two levels, to handle the extra crowd and 4 trains at a time. When events aren't held, only the top level is used.
Bleah. Even when events ARE held, they rarely warrant the use of the darkened lower level. Yet, they added bumpy tile to the edges down there. It takes something like a Monday Night Football Eagles home game, the Army/Navy game, or the NBA All-Star game to get the lower level in use.
I imagine, if SEPTA ever adds express tracks in South Philly, the'yd run as far as Snyder, merge north of Oregon, and then go double track to Pattison. The lower level would be accessible by trains from both tracks instead of just the northbound track, and would be usedonly whn Express trains operate. Maybe thy'll do this if they get the Roosevelt Blvd. line running, but I doubt it.
The South Philly end definitely doesn't warrant additional tracks. None of the stations are ever very full. Compare Tasker-Morris, Ellsworth-Federal, and Snyder to some of the stations on the G...only with slightly better service.
I'm not too familiar (yet) with the South Philly end of the BSS... Is there a provision in the tunnel for a full four-track line, or would the two express tracks have to be built entirely from scratch?
Combined with Wdobner's idea of extending the BSS to Philadelphia Airport, there would probably be enough usage to warrant express tracks.
Here would be my idea, which combines elements of other people's ideas here on SubTalk:
Broad Street Local: Extend southward to the Philadelphia Naval Business Center (formerly the Naval Shipyard). This would help lure businesses down there.
Broad Street Express: Extend southward from Walnut/Locust to PHL Airport running roughly alongside or down the median on I-95. (I'm not too familiar with this area, but judging by the street map in front of me, it look like there'd be plenty of open space for a ROW.) Northbound express and local trains would continue to terminate at Fern Rock.
Roosevelt Boulevard Line: This would be the former Ridge Spur, and ideally be given its own new color code (Purple Line?) to distinguish it from the BSS. Starting at 8th-Market, the line would follow the Ridge Spur route and make stops at Chinatown, Fairmount, Girard, North Philly, and Erie before branching off and continuing under Roosevelt Boulevard to, say, Northeast Philadelphia Airport.
Market-Frankfort Line: Would be extended a few blocks along Bustleton Avenue to meet with the new Roosevelt Boulevard Line.
PATCO: It would be nice to see another PATCO line following Route 42 to Blackwood or Glassboro, as that corridor seems pretty choked with traffic. It could either branch off from the existing line in Camden and follow the alingment of I-676, or the existing PATCO line could be extanded through South Philly and cross the river a second time near the Walt Whitman Bridge and go south from there.
Thoughts? Comments?
(See... I'm still three weeks away from moving to Philly and I'm already playing God with the city's transit system!)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Good Idea!
I'm all in favor of extending the Broad Street Local to the old Navy Yard.
As for the Express, I have a few thoughts:
First off, the Express can be accomodated along Broad south of Walnut-Locust. The existing subway was built underneath one side of Broad Street, allowing the opposite side to be torn up to add 2 additional tracks. The existing line isn't under the center of the street.
Second, the enormous areas near the Schuylkill River and I-95 don't have many roads on maps. This is because virtually the entire area is occupied by refineries and tank farms as far as the eye can see. I don't know if there is enough room for a ROW to bring the line above ground. Also, the I-95 bridge over the Schuylkill is very high, to allow tankers to access the nearby refineries. I'm not sure a subway bridge could handle the steep approach grades, and I don't know if there is enough room to build a ROW to allow for long approaches. In order to access the airport, it would have to be tunneled under the Schuylkill, which I believe is around 40 feet deep in that area.
Lastly, my personal plan is to make the express tracks go from Southampton Rd (in NE Philly), down Roosevelt Blvd, and meet up with the Broad Street line around Hunting Park. Then, run it express down to Walnut-Locust. I wouldn't use spur trains because they are 2 cars, and service sucks. But if there was extra demand placed on it, im sure those can be changed.
Everything else seems to make perfect sense, and is a pretty good plan.
Regarding the BSS being extended to PHL Airport, you'd only need about a 20-30 foot ROW for an elevated concrete viaduct alongside I-95. I can't imagine the area is that packed with refineries, etc. Tunnelling under the river would be a huge expense, but not impossible.
As for the Ridge Spur, I'm sure it would get much greater usage if it were tied into the Roosevelt Boulevard line. Are the stations on the Ridge Spur able to accomidate longer trains, or are they only long enough for two cars? If the former is true, then there's no problem. If the latter is the case, then bummer. But I imagine lengthening the platforms on a few stations would be a minor expense compared to tunnelling under the Schuylkill River.
Of course new rolling stock would also have to be purchased for the Roosevelt Boulevard line, which goes without saying. Since the BSS was built to BMT specifications, maybe SEPTA could just pay the MTA to build them a few extra R-160's. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Are the stations on the Ridge Spur able to accomodate longer trains, or are they only long enough for two cars?
Seems to me the terminal station (built when PATCO was formed to operate the Bridge Line trains) is short, but the others are all much longer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Originally, the Ridge Spur stations were built like their Broad St brethren, large enough to fit a 8 car train. In 1975 they were cut in half (4 cars) in a "Model Cities" program. The 8th and Market St station is 8 cars long, built in 1968. However the Ridge Spur never operated trains longer than 4 cars, (this was back in the early to mid 70's). As the old Brill cars got older, the train consists shrank to 3 then to the standard Ridge Spur consist of 2 cars, which carries on to this day with the Kawasaki cars.
I'm not sure you're correct about 8th/Market. The 'new' (upper level) terminal, built prior to PATCO's takeover of the remainder of the old Bridge Line in the mid-60's, is, I believe, only able to accommodate 5-car trains. I think the rebuilt Chinatown is similarly short. Spring Garden was chopped back from its original 8-car length (same length dimension as the main line, but the width is considerably narrower) to its current 4-car (I believe) length.
No, I'm correct about 8th and Market. It was built to hold a 8-car train. Same here about the rebuilt Chinatown Station, that was built to 8 car length despite the other Ridge Stations being cut short to 4 car length.
And will somebody at SEPTA please spruce up the lower level of Fairmount Station. It qualifies as one of the most depressing stations in the system, outside of Spring Garden, Girard, and North Philadelphia.
Just out of curiousity, how were these Ridge Spur stations "cut short"? Did they simply biuld walls to seal off unused portions of the platforms?
Most cities spend money to lengthen their platforms, rather than shorten them. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
8th Street: Not cut short at all, but the passenger aiting area centers close to Market Street and the Gallery entrance. Nobody would probably walk the length of the platform for a front car seat except railfans like us.
Chinatown: No cuts, but all the exits are favored towards Race Street
Spring Garden: Totally closed and covered in grafitti. No service.
Farimount on the Ridge: They built a wall to seal off the remaining length of the platform, this station now can hold 2-car consists only.
BTW, City Hall station is a lot more depressing than Spring Garden or Girard, especially considering the fact that it is THE ultimate stop in usage on the line. Not to mention that it's under City Hall and reaches Penn Center, has all the interchange options, Regional Rail nearby. They should really spruce it up. Nothing holds a candle to the sad state of North Philadelphia station, however. But, with some blue time, new signage, and the stop could look as decent as Ellsworth-Federal
If I'm not mistaken, North Philadelphia, Fairmount (both levels), and Chinatown are the least used stations in the system, with City Hall, Pattison, Cecil B. Moore/Temple University, Olney, 8th Street, and Fern Rock topping thie list for highest Ridership
Last time I was in Fairmount on the spur, it was depressing as hell.
City Hall isnt too bad, it just needs some major paint, and the grime needs to be scrubbed off all the walls.
North Philadelphia at one time had a concourse linking the Amtrak station, the Regional Rail station, and the RDG North Broad regional rail station to the subway. North Philly no longer has any commercial activity, and nobody ever wants to go there anymore. The concourse was sealed off a long time ago, because very few people would make the transfer between the subway and regional rail up there.
City Hall does need major renovation. It also needs ADA access and everything else...
Cecil B. Moore is arguably the nicest station in the system; it is fully ADA compliant, well-lit, very nicely appointed. It is a local stop only, however.
Too bad its in a terrible neighborhood, once you get away from Temple U.
8th and Market can fit more cars than it does fit, but they would be on a part of the platform reserved for employees right now. Chinatown can fit 3 or 4, and Fairmount only two with the wall.
Also, in answer to some other post, I think Ridge service is good. Supposedly 16 minutes midday to 12 minutes on the express, but at peak its basically the same headways. Riding reverse direction is great because the trains are empty: SEPTA has to run them, but they are underused because they need to be at the same headways as peak trains, but of course get less service.
Chinatown gets some decent service on school days with people going to and from school days. Otherwise it gets nothing.
City Hall is a disgrace. Its the biggest station with the least amount of room. Nothing can improve it.
Cecil B. Moore is probably number 3: Olney still gets more service. Its probably bigger than Erie though, which should be much bigger than Fern Rock, which seems like it could be used more than it actually is. North Philly is definitely past its prime, but its still not that small. Susquehannah-Dauphin gets much less patronage. Also, you can still exit from the Glenwood Ave north exit: I've done it before.
City Hall has to be rebuilt. Anything can be improved with enough pain and money.
I think City Hall is fine, it just needs a massive clean-up. The little catwalks leading to the stairways are pretty unique.
Besides, you can't do anything with those huge columns and wall segments separating the tracks and the platforms. Those are load-bearing walls supporting the massive foundation of City Hall.
There are plans in the works to enhance City Hall but the big columns, narrow stairways, etc are facts of life. Part of the improvement plans will include elevators but I don't know how they will get to platform level. My suspicion is that they will be placed at the north end where there is more space, but others will be needed if the free transfer to the El is to be made ADA compliant.
There is also an interesting proposal to put fare-control booths at the top of stairways in Dilworth Plaza which would make much of the concourse a paid area. It would free up some room on the concourse level and make entering both the El and Subway much easier and more direct that it is now, but possibly at the expense of a continuous concourse.
Of all the people from NE who would be commuting to Center City, chances are more of them would be working near City Hall, since that is where the majority of offices are located. If you just use the BSS Express, it would end at Walnut-Locust, in the central business district. Ridge trains from the Blvd would dump you at 8th and Market, which is mostly a commercial area, not a business area. It would require a transfer to the el, which already handles very large crowds. Unless you transfered to a Broad Street local or Express from the Ridge-Blvd trains in a dicey part of town.
Still, I think the Broad St Express up the Blvd is the better option.
No, that's not just what you think, it's the truth. The Broad-Ridge Spur mostly handles the Gallery Mall crowd, none of which comes from the Northeast. Those that do, they take the Market-Frankford line.
And, Ridge service does NOT suck, they are just as frequent as Express trips. They also run Saturdays, which the Express won't until the Blvd. line is done. Ridge service is quite reliable, at least it has been for me.
Regarding the BSS being extended to PHL Airport, you'd only need about a 20-30 foot ROW for an elevated concrete viaduct alongside I-95. I can't imagine the area is that packed with refineries, etc. Tunnelling under the river would be a huge expense, but not impossible.
As for the Ridge Spur, I'm sure it would get much greater usage if it were tied into the Roosevelt Boulevard line. Are the stations on the Ridge Spur able to accomidate longer trains, or are they only long enough for two cars? If the former is true, then there's no problem. If the latter is the case, then bummer. But I imagine lengthening the platforms on a few stations would be a minor expense compared to tunnelling under the Schuylkill River.
Of course new rolling stock would also have to be purchased for the Roosevelt Boulevard line, which goes without saying. Since the BSS was built to BMT specifications, maybe SEPTA could just pay the MTA to build them a few extra R-160's. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oops, sorry about the double post. Disregard this one.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well the extension has been on the planning board FOR OVER 50 YEARS! The reasons it was never built were myriad:
1) The route was tied into a building of a new freeway in the NE. Residential opposition killed that idea.
2) Scuttlebutt said that back in the 50's to the 70's the route was opposed by NE politicians due to unspoken RACIAL reasons. The residents did not want MINORITIES riding to line and moving to the neighborhood. That has been moot now that many of the original residents of the NE have been dying off, and those people they feared has begun moving into the Northeast.
Now that the costs have reached at least 1 to 2 billion dolars to construct, it'll take another 50 years to get the damn line line built.
$1-2 billion for the first 2 miles.
The project's website (http://www.libertynet.org/netis/ projects a capital cost of $2.5-3.0 billion and $56 million in annual operating costs.
Mark
Maybe they can use a few R32 sets as they are retired...
I'm glad to see Philly is going to get a railfan with big ideas! Do you have any ideas to bring subway service to the northwest part of the city? I'd like to see a subway line to Germantown, maybe by converting one of the Chestnut Hill commuter lines to rapid transit. I'd also like a line that serves the art museum, the zoo, Manayunk, and continuing on to Conshohocken, and maybe Norristown or King of Prussia. If you like, I can e-mail you my master fantasy map of it all.
Mark
Isn't that Schuylkill Valley Metro thing supposed to provide rapid transit to Manayunk, etc.? What's that project all about, anyway? I've seen it mentioned here a number of times, but I don't know much about it.
I was reading the line-by-line descriptions of Philly's regional rail system last night, and it looks like there has actually been some talk of converting the R7 Chestnut Hill East line to rapid transit. That probably isn't even a blip on SEPTA's radar screen right now, but it's an interesting idea.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Schuylkill Valley Metro is a very ambitious project. It proposes to build a rail line all the way from Center City Philadelphia to Reading, 62 miles away. It would include the route of the current R6. It's supposed to be an all new mode which they call "metrorail." I think the idea is to have commuter train distance and rapid transit frequency. Here is a website with more information: http://www.dvrpc.org/planning/tod/svm.htm
I have mixed feelings about the project, but I'll let other people have their say while I try to formulate what I think into words.
Mark
For the about the price tag of the Schuylkill Valley Metro line as almost-but not quite-reinvent the wheel-"MetroRail", they could simply extend the R6 (which would have made the most sense to begin with), as well building the other talked about Regional Rail expansions like the R3 back to West Chester, the R5 to Quakertown and Bethlehem, and restoring the R8 to Newtown, and probably still have enough left over to restore streetcar/light rail service to the 23 and 56.
I tend to agree there. I really don't see the need for "rapid-transit" style headways all the way up to Reading using a totally new type of rolling stock. Extending the R6 and maybe increasing headways on the line as far as Manayunk or Norristown would seem to be the more sensible option.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That's how I've been feeling about the whole SVM project for awhile. Extend the R6, and provide some sort of rapid transit for the points in the city and near suburbs. (Personally, I think it'd be nice to have a subway line that hit Manayunk, and stopped at the art museum and the zoo along the way, though this might be prohibitively expensive.)
And so is SVM. My own feeling is that the project as is won't be funded by the feds because of its high price tag.
Mark
Amen to THAT! All of it!
Could you email me a copy of that?
And here, I though most railfans didn't like those who came up with their own ideas for tweaking rail transit. Seriously, thoguh, I'd hope theyd leave the R7 alone. If one of the Chestnut Hill lines should be converted to subway/elevated, make it the R8.
I myself was once guilty of fantasy planning. Back in 1996, I had an idea for extending the R2 from Wilmington all the way to Baltimore. The reason? I was appalled that they had the SEPTA/NJT connection in Trenton to get to NYC, but nothing to get to Washington aside from (bleah) Amtrak. So, I figured SEPTA could connect to MARC trains in Baltimore.
Sure, I'll send you the map.
You wouldn't have to extend the R2 all the way to Baltimore, just to Perryville, MD, where you can catch a MARC train to Baltimore and Washington. This would only be a 10-20 mile extension. There has been talk about it, but I'm not sure it's serious.
Mark
Thank you for sending the map (rather for agreeing to it, I haven't checked my mail in days...)
I chose Baltimore over Perryville bacause I knew most MARC trains only went as far as Penn Station Baltimore, unlike the vast majority of NJT NEC trains that run straight to Trenton (Well, enough of them do that they can connect with almost every R7 train)
Just to put my 2 cents in, any extension to the Northeast shuld terminate at the Franklin Mills Mall. This is one of the largest traffic generators in the area, and the mall rivals King Of Prussia in size and number of stores. With the 8th and Market terminal serving the Gallery, and this proposed line serving Franklin Mills, maybe we could call this proposed line the "Mall Link".
I should know this, because I used to live in the Northeast, but just where is Franklin Mills Mall relative to Southampton Road? I ask because under the current plan Southampton and Roosevelt is the planned northern terminal of the hypothetical subway line.
Mark
Franklin Mills Mall is at Woodhaven Road, just south of Southampton; essentially the same terminus.
Yes, but Franklin Mills Mall is NOWHERE near Roosevelt Blvd; it's several miles east, not too far from I-95.
Either make a branch, or simply make the terminus at franklin mall, somebody said to end it at NE airport, franklin mills isn't too much further. To me, a mall is a perfect end station for a subway, parking is plentiful, most of the year, and you can grab the No-transit-close-but-don't-want-to-drive-into-the-city commuter with out too much parking lot construction, just grab a corner of Franklin Mills expansive blacktop. Heck, it's close to 95, just make signs pointing out the fact, and hope to grab those ignorant of the fact that there is a park-n-ride at franklin mills. Around christmas and stuff parking could get tight, what with the bargain shoppers looking for gifts, and undoubtedly those who riders are close enough to walk to the train if only it weren't so damn cold out fighting over parking spots.
And while i'm continuing subway lines, why not have the line continue down Woodhaven to Cornwell Heights? It would make a new Transportation Center, allow an alternative to the R7 into and out of the city, and, possibly you could operate a free shuttle car (perhaps the first, if that's where the C/R is, I really don't know). The train would originate at Cornwell heights, maybe 5 minutes after the connecting city-bound R7 has left. A special area on the platform allows the mall goers free access to the train, in my case the first car, and they are restricted from the rest. Once the train reaches franklin mills, the train pulls in until the first car, second car coupling is even with the gates, and the special mall car is cleared out, everybody off. Once all mall passengers are off, a gate to the mall closes behind them, and a gate to the normal platform opens, allowing access to the mall car, now just an ordinary car. Heading home from the mall to your connecting train at Cornwell heights would be even simpler, just have the people returning from the mall stand on the platform as those will be getting off the train, why even bother charging a fare for a one, or possibly two station ride? The only thing would be that if there was a cross under/over, it would need to have token booths or something, it could not connect the fare control area on the city bound side to the non-fare control side on the Cornwell Heights TC bound side. This service would target people from the north, like Bristol, Levittown, Morrisville, and even Trenton, while the Roosevelt subway bring them from the south.
Another branch could be north to Meadowbrook, Bethayre, or Philmont stations on the R3 West Trenton line via Red Lion Rd. By having the TC at Cornwell heights, the delaware river and lack of an bridges close to it hinder it's ability to draw riders, really it only pulls from bristol, itself, and maybe eddington. But a TC on the R3 would have a much more circular draw, pulling people in from a much larger area. Up here a franklin mills train, or even car, would be hard, if not impossible to execute, so despite (IIRC) a rather upperclass potential ridership, they may need to either drop a token and then only get a 2 seat ride, or just drive as they always have.
And in both cases the TCs set up a pretty good railfan opertunity, finally something that connects to the R7 Trenton!
Note that you left out Oregon and Pattison. I was thinking of having Express trains skip Lombard-South, Ellsworth-Federal, and Tasker-Morris. They'd only stop at Snyder(Ave) because the express tracks would diverge back into the local tracks north of the station. Expresses would serve both Oregon and Pattison. If they utilized the new Boulevard Line, the trips would run Express to Erie, then make all Blvd. Stops - but those would have more distance between them than the main stops. Express tracks from Erie to Fern Rock would still be used by Broad-Ridge Spur service.
How? Well, someone suggested this idea to me: sink the express tracks between Erie and Wyoming. The Express would sink under, and diverge to the Roosevelt Blvd line, while Ridge trains would resurface in the tunnel between Hunting Park and Wyoming.
Actually, the Broad Street Subway tunnel already has a turnout north of Erie that was built to accomodate future expansion. This is why the current Roosevelt Boulevard subway plans call for the line to branch from the BSS at that point.
Mark
What I believe they actually suggest is for the local to take over those flying junctions, where they would go up then back down. The connection to the new subway would be built from the present local tracks.
Problem is, they want to use Express trains on the Blvd. subway. There is a point between Erie and Hunting Park where trains going south could go from Local to Express track, while northbounds can go from Express to Local track; this was the original end of Express tracks (except the station at Olney) until about 1991/92. However, the connection exists at a point north of the start of the flyover. SEPTA would need to build the exact same connection south of Erie in order to avoid having Express trains running on Local tracks. (More so to avoid having them tie up locals than to avoid having to wrestle with the almost guaranteed complaints from riders at any of the side platform Local stops that the express trains won't stop there, but they're on the Local track)
I'm still all for sinking the Express tracks between Erie and Wyoming, and having the Blvd line diverge under the northbound tracks near Hunting Park, then having the regular Express tracks resurface between Hunting Park and Wyoming. The "roller-coaster" effect would be nice, and it would make for an interesting ride on either line.
That sinking idea was mine, i suggested it about a month ago. But I also found out that parts of a flying junction were actually constructed near Erie, so that might not be necessary. Whether this is true or not, i have no idea.
Thank you for claiming rights to your idea. I'm still in agreement on sinking them, as the flying junction you speak of is from the Local side. While a connection does exist to allow northbound Express trains to change to the Local tracks (and southbound Locals to change to the Express track), it is past the junction, and on the way to Hunting Park. The plans so far call for the Express to use the new Blvd subway, with Local and Ridge trains going to/from Fern Rock. So, sinking them is the best idea.
I figure, it'd be best to start the slope going north just after the connecting Expess/Local switch. The tracks to the Blvd line would diverge just south of (or directly under, depending on how steep the slope, but they managed with Fairmount) Hunting Park Station. The regular Express tracks would then rise, and the incline would level off at grade with the Local tracks either just south of, within, or just north of Wyoming Station.
However, one question plagues me. If they intend to use the Blvd line as the Express, then where will the Special Express trips originate from? Southampton Road, Fern Rock Transportation Center, or both?
Make it both! Run half to NE, half to Fern Rock.
What's going on over there? G3 and G4, The two express tracks appear to be out of commission north of the station. Switch Removal?
-Stef
They're re-doing the ballast from scratch, and replacing the switches, which are currently not in place. There's straight rail across since they need that length of track so Q's can come into the station pockets at a reasonable speed.
The work flats with conveyors on them for the ballast are a really cool idea!
There's also a flat with a fold down ramp for getting front end loaders on and off. Altogether a very interesting operation.
Isn't there a switch if I am not mistaken north of 57/7 on G3/G4 tracks leading into the 63rd St. Tunnel.
Isn't there a switch if I am not mistaken north of 57/7 on G3/G4 tracks leading into the 63rd St. Tunnel?
Normally, yes; currently, no.
I want to ride the electric MU lines only ( no diesel )
how far does each line go with electric MU cars ??
.......U know the ones with the railfan window !!! .....lol !!
..what zone(s) and aprox.how much do i spend? a( rough guess-ti-mate )
I would like to video Metro North & the hudson especially !!!
maybe harlem and new haven too ...........??
man the view on amtrak was something else !!!
any one out there could help me on this ?? ......thankz
!!!...............lol!!
oh well correction ....
I want to ride the electric MU lines only ( no diesel )
how far does each line go with electric MU cars ??
.......U know the ones with the railfan window !!! .....lol !!
..what zone(s) and aprox.how much do i spend? a( rough guess-ti-mate )
I would like to video Metro North & the hudson especially !!!
maybe harlem and new haven too ...........??
man the view on amtrak was something else !!!
any one out there could help me on this ?? ......thankz
!!!...............lol!!
new haven-whole mainline MU/ diverging branches are not MU
Harlem- I think that n. white plains is the limit
hudson Croton/Harmon is the limit
Actually, you can try to ride an MU from Brewster North...my train the other day went all the way up to Brewster North, making stops from White Plains and up...Not all Harlem Line expresses are diesels...mine the other day wasn't...
Cleanairbus
so i should buy tickets leaving from grand central to what on the
harlem line ...........new haven line.........???
thankz if you can help !!
Well, you could get an MU as far as Brewster North on the Harlem Line, or New Haven on the New Haven Line.
OUTER LIMITS OF ELECTRIFICATION, MTA RR's:
New Haven: New Haven
Hudson: Croton-Harmon
Harlem: Brewster North
Port Jefferson: Huntington
Oyster Bay: East Williston (But only one train goes there per day)
Ronkonkoma: Ronkonkoma
Babylon/Montauk: Babylon
Port Jervis/Pascack Valey: Not electrified at all
West Hempstead/Long Beach/Port Washington/Far Rockaway: Fully electrifed.
:-) Andrew
Don't forget the New Canaan branch from Stamford.
Yeah. I also forgot the Hempstead Branch.
:-) Andrew
Not to be off topic {though I'm not sure this is off topic since people tend to be talking about planes a lot}, but does anybody know of or have a website that explains all different types of aircraft used for passenger transport {ie Boeing, Airbus, etc}
www.airliners.net is AMAZING! It's what NYCSUBWAY.ORG is to the Subway.
It's Add Photos/Use Photos feature is pretty interesting. Dave?
You can go directly to the companies web-sites, Boeing.com and Airbus Industrie. But the information may be somewhat generic. It may be more helpful to you to go to the library and find a book on commercial aircraft. Good-luck
http://www.airliners.net
The Boeing Aiport Planning Manuals are here...
http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/aircompat/plan_manuals.html
Try this site: www.airliners.net
Thank you all for your responses! I will look into all the websites that you have posted!
I am not subway fan, more of a bus fan, but I saw some things while taking a bus trip. When I took Metrorail the week before, I saw a lot Rohr cars on the Orange and Blue lines, but this day, I saw a lot of Breda cars. Also saw up to 5099 for the CAF cars, not sure if 100 cars are in service yet but that is the highest number seen, seen at the L'Enfant Plaza station. Also seen at L'Enfant, was lead car 3263 that had most of its interior lights out except a few, with the following car, 3263 almost looking pitch black. I get the feeling that CAF better get on the "goodfoot" get the rest of those cars built, BUT BUILT CORRECTLY!!
The Rohr cars are concentrated on the Blue, Orange, and Red lines. For some time, Blue/Orange had more but now I think Red does. With the CAF cars, the numbers are all over the place and with them constantly going in and out of service for various reasons, I wouldn't really trust those numbers.
Just saw an R-40M running on the N line. I guess with the R-143's coming in, the ENY fleet is migrating over to CI?
That's what I read in my August ERA bulletin.
When the R-160 cars come on line, which car series will be replaced/scrapped?
We've discussed this here a few times over the past couple of weeks, most recently within the past few hours.
According to a July 2002 staff summary:
Base order: R-32(GE), R-38, slant R-40, R42(CI)
Option I: R-32
Option II: R-40M, R-42(MK)
David
According to the MTA website, all R32's, R38's, R40's in both series, and R42's.
If so, what cars will replace them & are there plans for the A & C trains to get R40M or R42 cars in the future.
Please stop reading posts and turning the answers into questions.
David
they might be bumped out of those yards, but they wont be replaced
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-bc-ny--attackstransit0809aug09.story
Nice to see that Schumer and the Bush people have gotten together on this (having a governor up for re-election probably doesn't hurt, either), though it will be interesting to see what the city is going to get for $4.5 billion, which is A LOT of money, considering the Newsday story makes no mention of exending the LIRR or Metro North down from Grand Central or Penn Station or over from Brooklyn. The two WTC towers themselves are valued at only $3.5 billion apiece, and that's using Larry Silverstein's formula, not the insurance companies he wants $7 billion out of.
On the other hand, if the city could swing it with the FEMA people, $4.5 billion might buy you a pretty damn nice $1 billion downtown rail hub and leave $3.5 billion left over for a Second Ave. subway line operating via Nassau Street, which could then be included as part of the "downtown rail hub" service the WTC site.
[On the other hand, if the city could swing it with the FEMA people....]
Except that any aid provided through FEMA will likely be deducted from any other federal assistance that would normally come in for any other purpose, and then deducted again from any state assistance that would normally come in for any other purpose - in each case, to punish city residents for voting against somebody named George.
Depends on George's future ambitions -- reports are he's one of the people trying to angle the VP post in 2004 if Cheney doesn't run again, ni which case he'd want to keep all the natives happy (Pataki getting the GOP convetion for New York would also help free up some federal money about at that time, just as it was pretty obvious 10 months ago that the release of federal funds like the new FEMA deal would come close to coinciding with the 2002 election for governor, because that's the way politics is played on both sides.
FEMA could have released the $4.5 billion back in January, but by now everyone would have fogotten about it, and that wouldn't have helped Pataki with the voters. Odds are there will be some other announcement of funds being released to the city between Sept. 11 and Nov. 5 this year that George will get to announce. Hopefully, some more transit cash will be in that mix).
This plan is kinda great a good step to the 2nd Avenue Subway. Wherever they decide to build it, they should double level it like 63 Street. So the 2 Av Subway and MNRR can do a north and south deal on the west side. Perhaps another option to Downtown Manhattan.
Here's another story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/10/nyregion/10REBU.html
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-subway0809.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dheadlines
Wow ... that's terrible. Wonder if he had any idea that there'd be a train coming on a normally closed track and whether or not there was a way he could have been told that the "empty track" had "railroad" on it.
I know a relative of John Samuelson. I will ask her for more details.
You might want to give them a few days ... at least. Please extend my sympathies and I'm sure everyone else's here ... it's one thing to see the gene pool get maintained, quite another to see the conscienscous take it in the ear. I'd guess that if he had any idea that the track might be occupied, he wouldn't have gone there since you would normally flag all tracks that you and your crew would expect to occupy.
John Samuelson is the union rep, not the trackworker who died. It is his job to talk about the accident so I'm sure he can give me some details. I'm not gonna be rude about it. And I'll be going through a relative of his, not him.
Bottom line is that we all work in pairs in hazardous conditions, right? CI Peter
I guess so... I mean you tell me, you work for NYCT...
Sorry ... wasn't sure of who was and wasn't. I tell ya, this has been quite an education for me once again at how much things have changed since MY time on the railroad. Folks got killed back then too for stupid reasons but in the looking back, in most cases they should have known better and they did violate rules of common sense. I just hate to see folks not go home at the end of their shifts.
I work for NYCTA and 'safety in pairs' is the rule. Yah gotta speak up if your partner is a dickweed...he (or she) can get you both killed. Paraphrasing 'Gump'...'Safety is as safety does.' CI Peter
There was mucho radio traffic that night.
This is going to big big with the TA saying it's his own fault for leaving his post and the Union coming back with this would never have happened with .....
As the Union president is from Track this is even more likely to a big issue. After a death no one wants to hear Supts. fighting over a who will take a lost time accident or ABD either which likely happened somewhere discreetly.
Almost one a year is a VERY large number. I can now understand why it is so hard to get private disability insurance.
Well, I'd be first to tell ya that I've had times when I'd encounter track workers where they shouldn't have been, lanterns and flags not far enough ahead of where they should have been and having to dump a train and PRAY. And I'm certainly not in possession of any FACTS here either nor is it my place to judge.
But I'd be QUITE surprised given how communications technology has "improved" since 1970 that the folks on the ground and the crews weren't made aware of one another - I know from my own experiences laying up trains center track and other foolish places that you MUST be aware of the railroad and KNOW when to cross (like immediately after a train goes by since you have the benefit of there being at least 30-60 seconds before the next, yada yada) and thus I'm surprised that the flagman might not have known that the track in question had railroad if it normally didn't nor did the crew on the A train appear to know that there was a work crew in the area (which always told me "slow running until clear of the zone") so I'm kinda surprised that it happened in the manner described, for whatever the reason.
Definitely something that needs an investigation though. The flagman doesn't strike me as someone who was careless by nature.
He left his post.
BTW there are a TON of new construction flagging jobs available to pick now. I think it predates the accident by days but with the mail being slow...
I think part of the problem is the flagman are not RTO but members of the gangs. I really thought some of the RTO guys were not good but they are excellent compared to the other guys particularly the track guys.
After a death the go bezerk with excessive flagging and make you crawl. I swear I had a fight last night with the same guy I had a fight with when the guy died last year. He was screaming that we were killing him same as the guy last year.
And yes even with all that extra flagging IT WAS STILL WRONG. I am not sure but either the second guy let me into the work gang too early OR he was using the wrong color lamp and have me a white (last flagman) instead of a yellow (another flagman beyond).
Yow ... well, looks like supervision will be busy formulating a new plan. I feel bad for everyone though. Still, I owuld hope that if anything comes out of this, it'll be better communication as to what and who is where, and when.
The fact that he left his post is what will hang him.
He is dead and can't explain why he was on a track other than the one he was supposed to flag. Likely he was peeing for a minute or two and had just come back rushing to his position.
But they can also say he was goofing off.
I hate to even use the word, but having this many track workers killed is ridiculous. The only way this can happen is the operation is unsafe. It is long past time for the unions and management to stop fighting over safety. It is long past time for the different work groups to be fighting over safety. All of the groups involved need to get your butts to the same table and work out plans for a safe operation. And, talk to one another during track work. Don't assume anything. Accept the fact that everyone has to work together to prevent accidents and injuries. Take the additude: "I'm not going to be involved in an accident even if it's the other guys fault."
Almost any flagging reasonably placed should prevent these horrors. Otherwise it is the T/O on 'cruise control'.
Flagging tends to be over done or under done. Signal maintainers are the worst, they work in pairs one flagging and the other doing the work but they often take short cuts like BOTH working no flagger or no putting the lamp out far enough.
Management has to realize that even a good flagman has to go to the toilet every once in awhile and the union might consider more flexibility in job titles. You have two stubborn sides and in the menawhile people get killed.
I had been thinking (which might not be a good idea for those trying to save money, but what it *would* save money *and* lives in the long run)
Why Not have a built in flagging system. It would consist of super bright flashing signals say between the rails. When a work crew puts its key in the trackside lock, 500' in both directions flash (RED) and another 1000 feet flash (YELLOW). I mean BRIGHT LIGHTS that will reflect around corners and spaced every 50' or so.
Especially for signal maintineers who are always on the move, but also for others, walking back the correct distance just to post a flag or a lamp is somewhat much. You still need the flag man to control the work site, but atleast good flaging distance and visibility is maintained.
What do you think?
Elias
>>> Why Not have a built in flagging system. It would consist of super bright flashing signals say between the rails. When a work crew puts its key in the trackside lock, 500' in both directions flash (RED) and another 1000 feet flash (YELLOW). I mean BRIGHT LIGHTS that will reflect around corners and spaced every 50' or so. <<<
Well, besides the obvious expense of putting in a new signaling system throughout the subways, and the need to maintain this system to make sure it is working when needed, it sounds good, but impractical. But from that idea, how about the much simpler idea of portable battery operated strobes which could be placed between the rails forward of the flagman to warn oncoming trains that workers are ahead?
Tom
Why not use the existing signals? Why can't you temporarily set all signals in that block and the adjacent block to "restricting?"
>>> Why not use the existing signals? Why can't you temporarily set all signals in that block and the adjacent block to "restricting?" <<<
That would not tell the T/O what he was looking for, and how would the signals be set?
Tom
Yes, that's true. The T/O would not know why the signal was set at that. And in order to dothat, there would have to be a way to set the signals that way, through a button, switch, key etc. that the trackworkers would control (or perhaps through alocal control tower).
But since the train would be moving more slowly, there would be a better chance that, were a BIE to be necessary, the train would stop in time, or at least would buy enough time to allow a track worker to scramble out of its way.
You could combine this with the current flag system, or one of the other ideas mentioned...
While a built in system would be good,
a portable system would work well too.
Spike your distal signal to a tie, and pay out your protecting flares every 50 - 100' or so. Have a master box with say 10 key-locks.
if all 10 keys are in the box, the signal is yellow. While people are on the tracks, they remove thier key from the box: Red Signal!
But putting in a hard wired system such as I described is not so difficult.
An alternative to this is, when any track is set to a work zone, the other tracks would have flashing GREEN signals if a train is within 1000'.
Elias
First, and foremost, my heart and condolences go out to the family of the deceased, his immediate co-workers, as well as the motormen involved. I think the only way to settle this unnacceptable issue is to force RTO to provide ALL construction flagmen. They are not accountable when accounting for production work in track, and therefore are ONLY there for their safety. THE TWU blundered in allowing for the agreement in which Track and RTO split up flagging work in the late '90s. I once banged in a trackworker/flagman on the White Plains Line flagging a street crane operator with a panel in the air from the structure while flagging the Northbound on track "M" to a stop. I think an N train got taken out this way on the Sea Beach, killing the crane operator. TA takes the excuse if the track is O/S, RTO doesn't need the flagman, or they put up orange barriers for signal renovation and tell us no flagman are necessary, and trains run according to normal signal control and speed. We are serious about safety? My A$$.
The track supervisor has a built in incentive to let bad flagging go by to tget the body working. Plus coworkers will want the trackman to help out to get the job done faster. The Flagman might want to chat for a few with a friend on the gang.
An RTO flagman, can't do track work, has a boss that would give him hell for leaveing or doing a bad job and likely does not know most of the gang so will be less tempted to leave. He/She will likely be a very senior person and have a VERY good idea about headways, too.
Assuming headways, routings, or traffic directions will bite you in the end.
You assume the worst. Your leader is late and sometimes these guys areshocked that you are there right behind. The flagman waves you thru meanwhile the gang resumed worked or some other such nonsense.
Yeah... With the Automatic system I suggested elsewhere...
An APPROACH and pass signam could not be given unless the whole crew is off the track, and has turned their key to the clear position.
In otherwords, every trackworker has a key, and inserts and turn it in an interlocking box near the work site. The lights cannot give the all clear untill all of the switches agree that it is clear.
Still needs a human boss to protect the site.
Elias
An RTO flagman can't do trackwork, signal repair or anything else other than flagging a train through a restricted area. And that applies across the board. Taking conductors off of garbage trains, refuse and collectors puts RTO on the bottom of the chain of command. Without a conductor on the dolly, the railroad would have been MINE to mess up as I pleased. I could simply blame RTO's delays on signals and there wouldn't be a thing control could do about it being headways are tighter. Having a second set of eyes impartial to my boss, rather than their boss enforces passenger movement. It also enforced safety since stations and signals don't use thrid rail jumpers and refused to use them in the past. Now what would the case have been had a paid professional constuction flagman been employed here in the last two fatalities?
Wow ... THAT would explain it. Flagging was always a part of Operations for just the reasons you mentioned. Now I'm beginning to see a bit more about how it could come to be like that. Yow.
Damned shame it is though - and no, I won't take the cheap shot about "urinating at track level" ... wasn't so bad when I did the "structure walk" stuff or was out in the open, but climbing up or down and crossing underground ALWAYS gave me a serious dose of the willies. I won't guess as to what happened, just hope and pray they figure out where it all went wrong and come up with a means of ensuring it doesn't happen like that again. I'm also a realist. The job is dangerous as hell even if you DO everything "right."
I did not mean it as a cheap shot but assuming he was as safe as they say he was, why was he out of position.
Lets face it people have to use the bathroom in the span of an 8 hour day.
Agreed (though I wouldn't cross the tracks to do it) ... and before you misunderstand, I didn't suggest YOU were going for a "cheap shot" ... I was trying to stop MYSELF from going for one - "urinating on the third rail" has been a thread here and elsewhere that went far beyond the call. That's what I meant there, my OWN self-restraint in not going for it again.
But all in all, it really bothers me that folks die needlessly. I *hope* the flagman had a good reason to leave the track, but then again if the track was normally out of service, that would make the explanation of what happened there a bit more bearable. WRONG, but still more bearable. Still, people need to know where the railroad is and what's going on in such a precarious and dangerous situation. I'm sincerely surprised that in all these years, there isn't a safer "the train is here and here, and you are here" solution for all involved to prevent such unpleasant surprises ...
Perhaps a more basic solution should be taught: If there are two running rails, it doesn't matter if they are rusted or not.
yea this story had me worried, i am starting as a TW next week. altho its for Metro North, it still as dangerous
I never wished you luck when you last posted your newfound employment, lots of luck out there. I imagine since you have little train wind to your back and noise abatement by nature of outdoor labor, it will be challenging. Don't be worried, just grow eyes in the back of your head like most of us do at one time, you'll be OK.
A certain amount of fear 9is normal, even healthy. You respect your environment- just as a lifeguard understands that water is dangerous. If you don't carefully follow your training and procedures you will die along with the person you're trying to save. Having a healthy respect for it keeps you alive and productive.
No it is not, don't worry.
They have much tougher flaging, almost everyone does. They even flag against suprise wrong rail moves.
altho its for Metro North, it still as dangerous
Maybe more dangerous.... subway trains do not run at 80 mph.
Good Luck to you and do be careful!
Expect a train any.... etc.
That's some cold porridge, bro. Sorry I keep harping on this - but from what I've had time to pay attention to, a trackworker was killed under the possible mistaken assumption that the track they had crossed to was not in service at the time and was therefore safe to occupy. I'm probably wrong, but that was the impression I got. Sorta like the concourse center track after the layups have begun. An A was rerouted that hit the person.
What I offer here is needless and stupid armchair quarterbacking, but I wonder if anyone raised the track crew on the horn and told anyone "railroad coming at you on track X" ... bet not. I've spent more than enough time in put-in and layup duty to know that you be EVER so careful before you cross to another track, look both ways and if you can't be CERTAIN that nothing's coming, you don't move until you ARE certain. It's a lot easier in a yard though without all those pillars to blind ya. My own experiences though give me the shakes as far as whatever happened here though. There's nothing like the hairs on your neck telling you "SURPRISE! Whew, that sucker missed me by INCHES."
Any motorman who's done yard time knows what I mean there ...
I didn't want to seem cold to the response but my impression of which I taught to almost every student I received in the last few years was that if it has rails, it has moving trains to watch out for. Reading signals to confirm traffic direction on the Concourse line isn't perfect when trains can take call-ons, or traffic can change at the drop of a dime during BIEs and reroutes. You bring up a fault oin RTO though. Construction flagmen are stripped of their radios because RTO doesn't have enough for road crews. Track Supervision, unless they have pocket scanners, can't tell their flaggers to be careful, and even signal maintainers have been dying in pairs because of the TA "Serious About Savings" campaign. The two who lost their lives at 121 on the Broadway BMT got no heads up from the Authority trains would be wrong railed. What does the TA do to remedy the situation? Write up the T/O for not obeying "restricted speed" guidelines when they are the first train to run against the nomal direction of traffic? Write up the body for not having the correct safety shoes? System safety chastized RTO supervision for the incident in the Joralemon tubes where lighting maintainers almost bit the big one, the relief T/D had no knowledge they were in the tubes, C/C had their heads somewhere else and who pays for it? I will if I don't expect Murphy's Law to work as designed.
Yep ... you're on the beam I was travelling on now - look at how many firefighters and cops were lost because their radios didn't buy them doowahdiddydoo either. "Serious about savings" can be overturned by just a handful of lawsuits. But then again, does Arthur Andersen mentality put that in the liability column (I say this because the state hired a LOT of AA acountancy (the 'c' was left off for savings) types over the years and MTA got a crop of them too) ...
Sure procedures are all well and good and "safety training" and Special High Intensity Training (or S.H.I.T. - have you gotten enough lately?) but surprises DO happen and it would be nice if everyone IN the way (or who could GET in the way) had the warnings. No excuses after 30 years for radios not working or being plentiful - it's not like that program just started. You've been with the railroad long enough to remember those pathetic motorola bricks we used to have to slide in the holster in the cab (useless outside the holster and usually in it as well) ...
I submit that there'd be better savings by canning a few wiglets and buying some radios.
Review and tightening of procedures could be in order.
Experienced crews may take a calculated risk that they would not want a rookie to take, but even the former can guess wrong. It's often the most common problems that lead to disaster, not unusual or esoteric ones.
Example of something from the military which happens despite open warning signs, hand signals and well-established procedures:
Some years ago, aboard an aircraft carrier's flight deck (a really dangerous place to be), the flight director had placed an A-6 Intruder on the port (left-side) catapult for launch. He then cleared an A-7 Corsair to taxi to the right-sided catapult. As the A-7 spooled up its engine to taxi, it turned and had its rear facing a crewman standing on the deck. The jet blast lifted the crewman and blew him toward the A-6. The flight director did not see this, and in the meantime the A-6's engines had spooled up to full power, the blast deflector had raised, the catapult was under tension, and it was seconds from launch. The crewman was blown into the space between the A-6 and the blast deflector; he was rocketed into the deflector and blown into the sky by 18,000 pounds of jet thrust.
Avoidable? Yes. It was in some senses, a freak accident, but it resulted directly from the most common danger on the flight deck: jet blast and prop wash.
So the mundane, common basics of safety cannot be over-emphasized.
Additional advance warning is important, and the communications problems cited are worth examining by the TA.
Here's hoping for the sake of the "folks on the ground" that anyone in a work zone KNOWS what's moving in their direction. It's one thing to be stupid, it's quite another to not have any idea. Then again, my whole thing here is based on EXTREME lack of knowledge of what actually happened down there ... but still, the more chances you're GIVEN to win, the better the chances that you MIGHT.
Yeah... I worked on a flight deck once, I know all about Jet Blasts.
Spent the rest of that cruise in the galley.
I don't think the squadron had any objection when I asked to change my rating to "cook".
Elias
It I read the article correctly, he told the train to STOP and HOLD, that protected the track he was protecting.
If he had to take a leak he might have stepped onto another line that was SUPPOSED to be quiesent, but had unknown to him a re-route.
If the stopped A-Train had no railfan window, I might have wizzed right in front of him, but I can see that if passengers were watching he might have stepped across to a more sceluded place.
We will not know, but hopefully we will learn.....
Expect a train on any track at any time in any direction.
Elias
An Aux Flagger shouldn't even HAVE a white lamp.
Wouldn't the tower switch the A train back to the local track at B'way-ENY? Isn't that tower always in use with an operator?
Maybe, and yes, probably. But the train was sent down the track for whatever reason, a sick passenger, I think.
The point is, since the track where the tragedy happened was not closed by a G.O., anyone on the roadbed should assume a train is moving on it untill they have personally proven to themselves, by sight, that there isn't.
#5 inspection works on 239th inside tracks. R142s roll in silently without proper notice...I jump out and move CIs with their junk. Shop steward went after me for big bugging a R142 going out after CIs left a dead trainset...go ahead and write me up...sure it was not my job but my crews safety came first. Trackworker probably has a bad partner. CI Peter
The shop steward was right, that is an assigned duty for another person. If the bugman isn't there report the issue to the shop steward and let him address it with the worker and if needby, Supt. I'm sure you are overqualified to work with 600V buggers, but if you aren't authorized, you may pay a price if there is an accident there doing something another person was under contract to do. You have to draw a line some day.
Just before, a bug left exposed against a shoe fell and i jumped out of my car to catch it. As a I did, an explosion occured on the other end of the trainset...one of my supervisors stepped out from Redbird undercar and knocked an exposed bug off another shoe. The two bugmen were called off the job after waiting a half hour to trolley the trainset out...safety obsevation was left to someone incompetent. i did not go to the yard Supt. but did report the incident to my supervisors who were quite surprised and went to the supervisor responsible for troubles 'off the record.' Sometimes, you have to let go of your anger and let things 'slide' as nobody was injured. The CI responsible was promptly transferred The 'G2 thing' goes with your record...I was later injured seriously because others were careless...an injury that will plauge me for months of pain. The Supt. did a full bore cleanup of the situation..I kinda tried to hide from him from him for a week but gave up because the incident was documented and photographed...the union safety inspector never showed up. Sometimes, you do have to draw a line.....the line seperates those who know and care from the stupid and careless. I've picked my side...and make efforts to stay long distances from those on the other side of 'the blue and yellow lines.'
I understand FULLY why you choose to do the "dirty work". If you want the job done right, you do it your self. Case in point from "unsubmitted" G2:
1996, 239 Yard rolling out inpections from 65 tk, 6 cars 8804/7772/7942. I checked the tops, partner did underwear. Riding in rear, I heard four sucessive bangs in rail as my car's cab approached area. Pulled cord, went to the roadbed, I found those illegal chains laying atop the rails. Forget system safety's opinion on chains, or my partner's lackluster inspection procedure, I'm now bothered by your boss from the desk as he overhears my comment to the bugman. My G2 was not submitted because the Y/D didn't make it an issue and the brass settled it. My lesson: I'll check the train you get the sammich. I have that option though since T/Os will hang together. Bugman are accountable for those jumpers. But your philosophy is good. Stay away from those painted lines just in case your boss wants to become a "conductor".
Safety Tip of the Day: Blue and Yellow lines
Blue and yellow lines are painted upon the floor to remind you of the enviromnent you work in. Blue lines remind you to wear PPE (personal protection equipment like helmets, safety shoes and protective eyewear.) Yellow lines remind you of areas of lethal hazard...moving machinery and 'hot shoes' that you must be aware of and avoid.
OTJ Safety Tip: Where no lines are painted
There are no lines painted upon the floor to remind you of the hazards engaged by your co-workers. Do not expect your co-workers to have common sense to look out after NUMBER ONE. Make the effort to look out for yourself, be aware of danger and look out for your co-workers because you have the knowledge/experience/intuition to do so and you'll never forgive yourself if someone gets hurt and you could have halted the situation before injury occures. CI Peter
It sounds to me like the trackworker made a tragic mistake. Trackworkers are brave guys, and, no offense intended at all, a little bit crazy! I was intimidated by trains standing still when the Museum had a training session for the disabled. Trains look MUCH bigger from the tracks. The Triplex I saw seemed to be almost scowling at me. I've stood trackside upstate and felt the power of a train going by even at a slow speed. May God bless this poor man's family. It's a tragic way to go.
<5> trains were on the LOCAL tracks coming in to 180 Street. Does anyone know why they were sending <5> trains local (unless they can switch from M track to the side before getting to 180). There is only one <5> that should ever come in on the local tracks and that is NOT during rush hours.
The (5)s all came in on M track. Some <5>s came in on the side tracks, while the others came in on M track. There were also lots of unnecessary waiting for another train to come, which didn't happen about two months ago (when I was last there). It was mostly (5)s and <5>s and one (2). The (2) seemed to be delayed for some reason. I heard that a (5) was stuck on the express track later on.
I know this morning, the 2,5 lines ran express from 149th and Third Ave to East 180th due to track work on the heading north from Jackson Avenue to Unionport, with track workers working northbound just south of East 180th street, I guess it has to do with the pending installion of new signals to replace the ancient old signals.
Just wanted to bring this up as the topic was addressed lately on the whole 142/143 and G.O. announcement thing. I oculdn't get a copy, but Bulletin 68-02 just came out addressing the issue. Not only for G.O.'s, but for service affected by 9/11 and the 63rd St changes as well. It basically says in such cases the automatic messages are turned off and the conductor does it manual. For example, a 6 at 51 St the conductor is supposed to disable the announcements and make them himself because the computer is programmed for E and F, not E and V.
Apparently its not that easy to reprogram as the 63rd St changes are somewhat permanent (it is understandable to not want to reprogram due to 9/11 since service should be restored soon), yet the solution is manual announcements.
"Line Supervisors will monitor for compliance."
Who gets taken out of service, the conductor or the R142 for improper announcements? :) just kidding, I know the answer.
A few times more so on the No.2 Line some of the R142 PA's do not work.
IME, compliance is spotty, at least on the 2. Some C/R's "ping out" the outdated announcements but don't replace them with their own. And I haven't heard any C/R bother to "ping out" the word "express" at each stop.
Keep in mind that the 2 and 6 announcements don't even reflect the Manhattan Bridge changes. Not counting the changes due to 9/11, there are errors at five stations on the 2 and five stations on the 6.
Keep in mind that the 2 and 6 announcements don't even reflect the Manhattan Bridge changes.
Those too would be covered by the bulletin. It uses 63rd, 9/11 as examples but is not limited to those cases. Basically they want that done at any station where the wrong information is programmed into the computer announcements.
This morning I was riding the Dyre Avenue line I have a question recently the TA has been doing a lot of trackwork, sometimes northbound and sometimes southbound, I now they are constructing a new signal system, my question is which direction gets the new signals first northbound or southbound, I saw two new signals still covered up just before the curve into East 177 Street, these were southbound signals, I know about a month or so ago, I saw a worktrain with a huge spool, heading southbound, putting wires I guess by the handrail, thanks .
In all likelihood, all the new signals will be turned on at the same time.
Why do you say that. On the W line in Brooklyn they have some section with new Signal on one track and old one on the other. Leaving 9th Ave South bound you have new signal untill to leave
55th St and then old once after that. The samething gose of some section on the North Bound track.
Robert
P.S. This infomation is bast on what I saw about 6 mouths ago. I know there have been G.O. over this time so more new signal might have been put into effect. I just wanted to make a point that the TA dose not always turn on new signal at the same time on a line.
Southbound W has new signals operating from the south end of 9th Ave to just north of the Bay 50 interlocking; NB from north of Bay 50 to one signal before the south end of 9th Ave.
I based my answer upon what they did when the new signals were turned on from Bronx Park East to White Plains - M Track came on one weekend; 2 and 3 tracks came on the following. The new signals on the White Plains/Dyre line are being controlled by the same, new, tower. the new signals on the West End are being split between Murphy Master and Stillwell Master.
My work schedule calls for me to work weekends in the NYC bureau of my job....and i dont get to leave work until midnight.
I have been using Greyhound service back to Philadelphia which is supposed to leave at 1215am, but that service is most often spotty and unreliable......even when you complain to customer service, no changes are made.
Does anyone else know of any other travel options between Philadelphia and NYC that leave near midnight on weekends. Amtrak has a train that does not leave until 220a, and there is no rail connection from trenton if i leave that late. Any ideas would be appreciated.
02:15 from NYP to PHL (twilight shoreliner)
That's no good for him, because he's looking for a train around midnight. I'm not going to wait two hours for an hour+ trip home.
-Hank
1) You could try going to Trenton, then using Greyhound from Trenton to Philly.
2) In the long run, when the Camden-Trenton light rail is finished, you will be able to connect to that (thence to PATCO). That doesn't help you right now, though.
Sorry, due to FRA regs the Trenton-Camden Light Rail has to cease operations at 10PM.
... because the line will be used for freight at night.
Oh well. He still needs a way to do it now...Greyhound or another carrier from Trenton...?
As most of you know, I'm looking for apartments in/around Philly... I was wondering if anybody could tell me about the following neighborhoods (i.e., general character of the neighborhood, safety, traffic, noise, etc.):
Fern Rock (particularly Adams Run Apartments at 155 East Godfrey Avenue)
Northeast Philly (Somerton Court Apartments near the Somerton station on the R3)
Blackwood, NJ (Lakeview Apartments at 590 Lower Landing Road)
Lindenwold, NJ (several apartment complexes in that area)
Glenolden, PA (Glen Manor apartments at 500 Karen Circle)
Lansdowne, PA (Lansdowne Station apartments next to the R3 line)
Those are a few of the places I'm looking at, although I'm doing most of my looking in the northwestern part of Philly (Mt. Airy, Chestnut Hill, parts of Germantown). I've already driven around in those areas a bit and have a pretty good feel for them, but I'd still appreciate any feedback on those areas. I'm also a bit curious where the dividing line is between the "good" part of Gemantown and the ghetto part... I observed it seemed to be along the R8 line, but I could be wrong about that. This would be helpful to know for when I look up addresses of apartments.
By the way, my trip is still set for next week, and my moving date is set for Labor Day weekend, although that's not quite written in stone yet. Watch this space for updates.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hi Dave,
Glad that you are moving to Philly. More and more people are really beginning to discover what a wonderful place it can be.
I can tell you about a few of the neighborhoods, personally I live in Center City, where transportation is plentiful...and it is easy to get around (I live a block off of rittenhouse sq....beautiful downtown park. However, if you plan on keeping a car, maybe the outlying places you chose might be ok for you.
I had a friend who just moved from Adams Run, it seems to be a nice place, but not very close to convienient transport. There is the 47 bus a couple blocks away that goes to downtown, but takes you all the way through north philly.....takes almost an hour. same for the 57 bus....goes downtown, but just takes all day.
You could drive over to the el station at margaret-orthodox.....a 10 min drive, but parking would be a problem there
all of the other places you have on your list are suburbs of the city (except for the northeast, but that's so far, so you can count that as the burbs' too)(youll see what i mean once you get here)
all of them nice places to live, but you seriously limit your transportation options living out there.
Quite frankly, I wouldn't live in the City. The quality of life tends to suck, particularly when it comes to the "Little Things", such as quietness, quality of the neighbors, and the amount of services you get from the city. Another thing is the SKY HIGH car insurance rates. Also utility rates are nearly at ripoff level (PGW and PECO are the worst-run utilities), and in Germantown, you have the ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY OBSCENLY HORRIBLE CABLE OUTFIT IN URBAN CABLE. THESE ASSHOLES DO NOT OFFER INTERNET SERVICE AND THEY RIP YOU OFF ON THEIR RATES. Here's my take on the choices you listed:
1) Fern Rock-Adams Run- Not very Good- Neighborhood is OK but on a downward slope.
2)NE Philly- Nice Place, only if you like 1 hour plus commutes and sucky service on the R3 .
3)Blackwood- Ok but you do not want to drive in New Jersey. Its traffic, traffic, traffic, all day. Then the Patco lot is full by 8 AM, and the other alternative in the No Jersey Transit rt 400 bus. It comes when it wants to, and it takes forever to get to Philly, giving you the grand tour of New Jersey suburbs and passing through the most god-forsaken city in the world: Camden N.J.
4)Lindenwold- The apartment complexes in that area were shoddily built. One of them had a fire a few months ago. As I said earlier, the PATCO lot fills up by 8 AM, but since you might walk, that might not be a problem.
5) Glenolden- a reasonably nice place, the R2 is an okay rail line, and there's a lot of stores on MacDade Blvd, plus the 113 bus runs all night
6)Lansdowne- You could hit the jackpot there. Not only you will live next to the train station, but the 109 bus will take you to Springfield Mall, all of the shopping on Baltimore Pike, plus it is a 12 minute ride to the 69th St Terminal and all of the great SEPTA connections to King Of Prussia and Center City. Also Lansdowne is a nice, quiet town.
If you are considering another place in New Jersey, May I suggest my apartment complex. It's called the Parkview and its located in Collingswood. It has excellent location, its less than 30 minutes from Downtown (On the NJT 403 bus no less), has a shuttle bus to the PATCO line ( if you miss the bus, the Collingswood Station is a nice 20 minute walk, great for exercise ) It`s convenient to shopping (less than 20 minutes to 3 of NJ's largest malls - Cherry Hill, Echelon, and Deptford), and the rent has all utilities included. And last but not least, excellent cable and internet service from Comcast.
And another thing, Another Transit Buff lives here! that's right, Me I lived here for 12 years and I have no complaints. The apts are well built, and the area is one of the safest. In addition, it has a pool and a health club on the premises.
Sorry for that last paragraph, it sounds like a sales pitch, but I think you would like it here. It has good transit, people, and a nice, walkable town between two nice parks.
I hope you find a nice place to stay in the area, but by all means, do not pick the City. You will want to move out when the lease is up, believe you me, I went through this 12 years ago, and I lived in the neighborhoods you are considering.
"I hope you find a nice place to stay in the area, but by all means, do not pick the City. You will want to move out when the lease is up, believe you me, I went through this 12 years ago, and I lived in the neighborhoods you are considering. "
Too bad you had a bad experience. Philly can be challenging. A lot of things work pretty well, in Philly. I've been here, combined, about 7 years...
Many who move out, though, for the reasons you give lack the social skills to get along with their neighbors. And while some neighborhoods have their problems, others (Manayunk, Germantown, Roxborough, the NE area, Center City,) have a lot of charm to them. Too bad you have to generalize, even showing off a bit of prejudice in doing so.
But if you're more comfortable in a New Jersey suburb, so be it. I can only wonder what Philly neighbors would say about you...
Blackwood- Ok but you do not want to drive in New Jersey. Its traffic, traffic, traffic, all day. Then the Patco lot is full by 8 AM, and the other alternative in the No Jersey Transit rt 400 bus.
South Jersey is definitly NOT traffic all day. First, if you know your way around its not a problem. Second, the only nightmares are commuting to/from Philly at peak times and various forms of "Shore" traffic, but that latter is only a problem Fri-Sun mornings/evenings from May to September. My dad commuted from Haddonfield to Sewell via Rt 55 and Rt 42 and its a breeze as he is operating opposite from the peak traffic flow. As long as you avoid the "rushes" things are fine.
BTW I know the Parkview appartments (its the far point on my Newton Creek Park joging route) and they are definitly not very far from being a complete pit. I had always assumed they were lo-income housing or an old folks home. Their design/colour is terrible/butt ugly and That area gets a lot of "element" comming in from Canden and West Collingswood. Parkview is also located down the river from the Collingswood sewage treatment plant with the oh so find smells wafting in and when Newton Creek Lake gets all stagnent in the summerand fall the addition of the rotting swamp smell really makes for a real symphony of the nose. However I will admit that they are great some someone who enjoys outdoor recreation (being adjacent to two large parks and all). My grandmom used to voulenteer at the Knight house there on the corner of Park and Collins, her home being on Lee Ave near Merric.
Lindenwold-... the PATCO lot fills up by 8 AM
With the economic downturn of the last year, fewer people are commuting to Center City, and the Lindenwold PATCO lot no longer fills up. PATCO ridership is 6 or 7 percent less than it was three years ago.
Thanks for the candid response. I've been living in Chicagoland for nine years (in the city itself for six of those years), so I'm used to high car insurance, bad infrastructure, and the other annoyances of urban life. Here in Chicago, it's well worth the hassle to live in the city; Chicago has many beautiful and affordable neighborhoods, and most of Chicago's suburbs are sprawling plastic wastelands. There's no question which I'd rather live in.
However, the situation in Philly seems a bit different. With a few exceptions, Philly's neighborhoods aren't nearly as nice as Chicago's, and Philly's suburbs aren't nearly as bad as Chicago's. Additionally, with all the personal crap that's been going on in my life over the past couple years, I really feel the need for a change of scenery. I'd like to look outside my window and see some trees rather than a brick wall for a change.
Up until about 4:00 this morning, I had been strongly leaning towards either Adams Run or the place in Blackwood. But while driving home from a party, the clutch cable on my car broke. Luckily for me, it happened only about two blocks from my neighborhood service station and I was able to coast right into their parking lot and walk home. But it reminded me of why I don't want to be totally dependent on my car to get me around; I need some sort of transit service (preferably rail) within easy walking distance. Now I'm leaning towards Lansdowne or Glenolden (although I wouldn't rule out Lindenwold if I found a place within easy walking distance to PATCO). Delaware County seems like a nice place, anyway... For a long time I was considering an apartment complex near the R3 station in Media, but they're probably a bit out of my price range (although I might still be able to hack it if I get a decent job offer).
Thanks for the info about the place in Collingswood... One of the firms I'll be interviewing with is in Collingswood, so I'll keep that in mind. What sort of features do the apartments have, and what's the rent range for a one-bedroom unit?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Glad you've got some handle on the place.
I should point out, though, that some of the best places to live where you see trees instead of walls is IN the city. In contrast, there are suburbs here where parks can be scarce.
Ha, not in my area. New Jersey has a great green acres programme that has preserved a million extra acres of open space in the last 5 years. Not only that, but around where I live you can't throw a brick without hitting a tennis court park or a soccer pitch.
You're lucky. Sounds like a good program.
The rent range here in Collingswood is about 700 to 750 dollars a month with ALL UTILITIES INCLUDED. Now I admit that`s a little pricey, but with the fact that you do not have to deal with utility bills, it's worth the price. Also this place allows pets. If you want any more info call this number: 856-854-4112. That's the rental office.
Other features Parkview has are, the gym, swimming pool (you have to pay extra-$20 a month for the gym, $90 a season for the pool.) really solid construction (a fire can blaze in the next apartment, and you wouldn't feel it next door), smoke alarms in every apartment, shuttle bus to PATCO (or a 20 min walk) NJT 403 bus at door, 75 minute drive to Atlantic City (shore and casinos), or an 80 minute ride on the bus and train. Microwave ovens in every apt, and cable ready. Comcast cable provides excellent service both Tv and Internet service. I pay around 85 bucks a month for both, although you'll get one if their many specials they run for new hookups. And last but not least, this complex is nestled between two lovely parks,(excellent viewing areas for July 4 fireworks). The only drawback (if you can call it one) is that there are a lot of older people here. It sucks socially, but it contributes to the quietness and stability of the neighborhood. A lot of young couples and families also call this place home, but many of them keep to themselves and do not cause any trouble or rock the boat.
Good luck on your search, and if you need anymore info, or wnt to give this area a "test drive" ( I can put you up for a couple of days), please feel free to e-mail me at mdlbigcat@comcast.net.
Try some places in South Philly.
South Philly is primarily row houses, but they are very affordable. The areas east of Broad, and near Tasker-Morris and Snyder are very nice. Many well-kept houses on tiny alleyways off the main streets. Plus, you can ride the electric trolley buses to the subway! Many neighborhood parks, and an Acme grocery store is at 10th and Passyunk, centrally located for the neighborhood.
hmmmmmmmmm..............i finally got them !! the exact specs !!
yea !!
Rail Vehicle Specs
Technology: P865 model Light rail vehicle, articulated,
6-axle,double-ended, pantograph
powered (750V DC)
Manufacturer: Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo, Japan
Fleet: 54 vehicles, 100-153 series
Built: 1989-1990
Cost: $1,170,000 each
Length: 87'
Width: 8'-8 3/4"
Height: 11'6" (top of rail to roof); 23'5" (plus max
pantograph); 6'8" (Interior ceiling height)
Weight: 94,000 lbs.
Capacity: 150 seated; 230 max seated + standing + 2
wheelchairs
Speed: 55 mph max allowable; 35 mph street running
Acceleration: 0 to 55 mph in 45 seconds
Operation: Cars run in train lengths of two. Have been
increased to 3-car operation the fall of 2001-2002 .
That's some great acceleration 0 to 55 in 45 seconds.
i do not remember them going that fast !! man dat would throw U back
into your seat ..............lol !!
SOMEHOW THEY MISSED THAT ONE !!
0 to 55 in 45 seconds...That would not throw you back in your seat, lol. 0 to 60 in 4.07 seconds in a Chevrolet Corvette Z06 WILL throw you back in your seat, lol.
...he he...my good old 1964 impala with a 327 did that easy !!
whipped everything rolling!! won every street race hands down !!
glad i dont' do dat anymore !!! ...........lol !!!
I spent the afternoon at the local trolley museum and this amusing little incident transpired while I was riding in the back of a Peter Witt car. Some people were talking with me and were asking if railfanning was one of my hobbies and I asked if their kid who was about four or five years of age was interested in streetcars and wanted to go to the museum. Their answer was no, that they were just there enjoying the afternoon and that none of them had any particular interest in streetcars.
Several minutes later the conductor walked to the back of the car and asked them if they were having fun. The little boy answered the question immediately in the most shatteringly candid way by looking at the conductor straight in the face and simply saying 'NO'! I guess some people just aren't cut out for this at all but I wasn't expecting such a frank reply from the kid...
-Robert King
Well Robert, either you love this hobby to death, or you don't.
Lucky there are a lot of us who really like it , or should I say love it!
Chuck Greene
Well, but recall that little boys love to say No! even more than they love streetcars. You never know...
amen!!
Hey Chuck, the kid is only five years old. I remember not liking to ride the trains either, and I remember not liking baseball games as well. Well on April 19, 1947, I rode the Sea Beach for the first time and I was hooked. I even got to like other lines a little, and I became a baseball nut that same year even though my dad took to me many games in 1946 and a begged to go home. Give the kid time. It is too early to write him off.
fifty years ago, it was a different ride to CI. Got to ride the electric horses. Fourty years ago, it was Freedomland. just try to excercise your freedom today. CI Peter, last of the Redbird Techs
It does take time. I didn't really become a railfan until I was almost 30!
Mark
When I was maybe four, my mother would drag me to the train layout at Robertson's or Wyman's in downtown South Bend. I can vaguely remember a smoking loco, but that's about it. Can't recall if it was a Lionel or Flyer train. Then I got into Flyer.
Becoming a railfan was easier. My life changed forever on July 21, 1965 with my first subway ride. Two years later we moved to Jersey and the rest is history.
It was a move that did it for me, too. When I was in my late twenties I moved from Mississippi to Philadelphia, and got to ride rail transit regularly for the first time in my life. That's what won me over.
Mark
I like to say that I got my first taste of the subway in 1965 and liked it. While I took the move from Indiana to New Jersey pretty hard initially, my folks say I forgave them when we started going to New York. As long as I got to ride on the subway at least once per visit, I was a happy camper. And if I didn't, well, that didn't sit too well with me. By the end of 1967, I was hooked. Maybe immersed is a better word.
I was in the Bayonne area today to check on the progress of the southern extension of HBLR from E.34th St to E.22nd St.
I checked out the overpass at E.22nd St. The old steel CNJ overpasses at E.22nd and E.23rd Sts were removed and new steel installed in its place.
The new overpass is painted light blue. The original steel pillars that held up the old steel girders was retained, even though they don't support the new overpass. The pillars seem to have been sandblasted of old paint and rust and were nicely repainted.
I photographed the fenced in, abandoned E.22nd St. station staircase. It will probably remain since it's on the freight side of the tracks. South of this overpass is a freight yard.
Bill "Newkirk"
I was on HBLR a few weeks ago (July 14th), and went from LSP to P/NP (right next to the mall)
If I'm not mistaken, yes, it's supposed to go south of 34th Street in Bayonne, but isn't it also supposed to link up to Hoboken Terminal (obviously in Hoboken) in the near future???
>>but isn't it also supposed to link up to Hoboken Terminal (obviously in Hoboken) in the near future???<<
I'm not sure, but I believe 2003 is the year the extension Hoboken opens. This will be interesting how ridership is affected.
Bill "Newkirk"
I hope it's sooner than 2003. I thought it was....
I thought so too...I heard they wanted the target date to be Sept 29th, right when the Hoboken Festival was to take place...
Cleanairbus
NJ Transit official says they are shooting for Sunday, September 29. They are to have a Try Transit at Exchange Place the next day, as in 2000. The one for 2001 was to start 8:30AM September 12; imagine the additional chaos if they had had it a day earlier.
The Hoboken extension is scheduled to open the weekend of Sept 29, to coincide with the transit fair.
I wouldn't be surprised if they were technically capable of opening it before then. All the necessary work is done except sidewalks and signage. (Of course work on switches/signals/catenary is not visible...)
If I see them running test trains on the extension I'll let you know.
Just to clarify, IIRC, the old CNJ structure was cut back, not removed. The remaining freight tracks will still be carried by the old structure.
>>Just to clarify, IIRC, the old CNJ structure was cut back, not removed.<<
Which structure are you referring to ? The steel work that supports the tracks and spans the street below is all new. See for yourself, the old, possibly badly rusted, steel was removed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, just about gone. I returned from a record show in New Jersey and when driving through Staten Island, though I'd check on things.
The old ROW is almost totally built on with homes and doesn't even look abandoned like it did some ten years ago. Even the overpasses that had the old B&O fencing is gone. There are about three items that remind you that a railroad was once there. The overpass at Robin Rd,(who knows how long it will last), one overpass retaining wall that survived the home construction at Belair Rd and another retaining wall nearby. Right where the South Beach Line branches off from the Tottenville Line, a lot where the ROW once was is being cleared and new homes going up next to it.
It's ironic that this ROW lay disused for many years after abandonement and suddenly homes going up in its place. I'm glad I photographed the ROW to record the remains of a line where 67ft Steel subway cars once ran. Or in the last years of service, a single car once ran.
Bill "Newkirk"
And just when you thought they couldn't build anymore home on the Island of Staten.
It's ironic that this ROW lay disused for many years after abandonement and suddenly homes going up in its place.
What that usually means is that the bureaucracy finally decided to release the land including the right-of-way for public sale.
There are many stretches of right-of-way still ownedby railroads or agencies despite being unused many years. Obviously the old Rockaway Branch from White Pot. I think the City of New York through the Transit Authority still owns much of the Canarsie right-of-way between Rockaway Parkway and the Canarsie shore, over 50 years after abandonment.
>>>I think
the City of New York through the Transit Authority still owns much of the Canarsie
right-of-way between Rockaway Parkway and the Canarsie shore, over 50 years
after abandonment. <<<
I don't think so. Only the ROW south to Conklin Avenue is not built on....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I see. I'm hoing by "the last time I looked closely" which may have been when Harding was President. :)
The row can be traced to a warehouse yard on the south side of Flatlands Avenue.
It's dead south of there, but there may be some remnants in people's backyards, just nothing that you can see from the avenues.
If there's a major building on the site, that's usually a sign the property was released. Individuals do have a habit of extending their backyards and gardens onto abandoned rights-of-way, sometime even a shed.
The LIRR seems pretty tolerant of people making a little garden on some lines next to active tracks, especially I've noted this in Queens. But if people take too much, they usually seem to move against them, perhaps to keep "adverse possession" from beoming a factor.
Is the St Johns Avenue stanchion (at Wingham Street) still there?
You gotta love Hagstrom...their new supposedly up to date 'digitally produced' edition RESTORES the South Beach branch!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hagstrom is often ahead of the curve. They had the LIE going to Southampton before it got past Mastic!
Maybe they know something. :)
Breada has been testing the Type 8 cars on a test track at Riverside daily. The MBTA will not allow the cars on the line for testing until the state DTE (forally DPU) gives the cars the blessing. The cars have been sitting idle at Resivior Upper Yard and all over Riverside Yard since 7/10/01. The MBTA or Breda has no date on when thay are going to resume testing on the lines or when they are going to return to service. They have been on property since 1/1998.
For Discussion: What would you do with the cars you cant use. and if anyone has any up date please post thanks STevie
I would let railfans take them for test runs up and down the test track. Charge $20 per run. Seriously!
find a 'real' car builder and try a PROVEN design. Transit agencies seem to have forgotten the lessons of the Harriman Common Standards, USRA, the Van Sweringens, etc. NOT to mention the PCC. San Jose and HBLR ordered low floor cars which are IN SERVICE. Breda did not build them.
David, you are most likely right.
Breda might build good railway/subway equipment, but their North American LRV track record is worse than the late, unlamented AdTranz.
Cleveland's RTA had beaucoup problems with the Breda LRV's they got to replace the Shaker PCC's. No derailments, but lots of other problems and the back-and-forth between the agency and the authority. In Cleveland, at least the RTA's shop people (and after much prodding of Breda) were able to get the bugs out. However, RTA is on record as never going to Breda again.
The MBTA may have a case, but so, possibly can Breda. The cars don't like the track, but didn't the Boeings have the same problems thirty years ago, like almost regular derailments?
Perhaps the MBTA need to have the entire system's track checked by an outside expert on track?
Funny you mention Cleveland. When I was there nearly ten years ago for an NKP Con, we got an RTA Shops tour. The host/guide told us horror stories culminating in 'we replaced most of the guts with US components--now they run' Conversely the Sumitomo "Red Line cars soldier on happily.
SF Muni has a pure Breda fleet now having retired the Boeings. While they seem to work, there have been numerous cars returned to Breda for fixes, plus an entire upgrade of the first group to "LRV3" specs. They are quite heavy and neighbors all along the street routes are complaining of rattling windows possible foundation cracks and NOISE.
One of SF's unique ptoblems is the schizophrenic nature of the system. Downtown its a real subway--high platforms, barrier fare control, then changes to street running with classic midget safety islands or nothing at all. Thus each car has rising lowering steps sets. eight per artic pair. Even if that stuff were extremely light and cheap...still another maintenance headache.
Mreanwhle Sacto has ordered enough cars to double its fleet in order to support two extensions and steadily climbing ridership. San Jose has ordered enough cars to go all low floor and is planning to off load the high floor cars which are otherwise in good condition and reliable runners.
Friday August 9, 2002 at approximately 1:30am as a female operator was putting the car up for the night in the Resivior Lower yard, was attacked on the car she was operating. As the suspect attempted to rape her she fought off her attacker and went to safety. The suspect was not caught. However this is 8 assult against women in the Brighton/Brookine area, they think its the same person in all 8. MBTA police relesed a statement that they are going to have extra K-9 patrols in the area. Unfourtnately the MBTA has a lax a dasical attitude for security around its shops and its yards. The T needs to look into tightening loose security breeches at all yards and shops.
for example, i saw some of how the # 7 does its thing during the mets
home games so i have a rough guess-ti-mate as to how they seem to get
this off !! ( hope i spelled the word operate right ) ......
If anyone out there watche how the #4 does its thing when the yanks'
R home ?? express tracks used ?? .................!!!
am i ever gonna shoot a video of this goin on 4 sure !!!
go redbird go go go !!...........lol!!
for example, i saw some of how the # 7 does its thing during the mets
home games so i have a rough guess-ti-mate as to how they seem to get
this off !! ( hope i spelled the word operate right ) ......
If anyone out there watched how the #4 does its thing when the yanks'
R home ?? express tracks used ?? .................!!!
am i ever gonna shoot a video of this goin on 4 sure !!!
go redbird go go go !!...........lol!!
As far as I know they store the train I think 4 sets of ten car trains above the interlocking at 167th street, A Supervisor with a Texan Accent and always in cowboy gear (a very nice man} stands on the platform at the Yankee Stadium stop.When the platform gets too crowded with Yankees fan, he has a walkie talkie, he talks to someone at Concourse Yard, the person at Concourse talks to the T/O, the train is sent down to 161.The Yankee Stadium Special runs to Bowling Green,people get off there, the train goes through the loop comes back uptown empty, skips all the stops goes into the Concourse Yard, maybe someone else could give a better answer.
This cowboy character sounds interesting. Why isn't he in proper MTA uniform? Does he pack heat?
TA supervisors do not wear uniforms. He is required to be wearing a safety vest tho.
Oh God. I can't wait to show TSS ******** these posts. I think he's going to die laughing.
He will find it funny.
When you do, please give him my regards. I haven't seen him in ages.
do you have to DE-train ant bowling green ??
also how does the #4 go to bowling green ?? ....if i might ask
( maybe it goes there anyway ) whats with "bowling green"..??
The 4 goes to Bowling Green the way it always does -- down the Lexington Ave. line. BG is the last stop on the Lex line in Mnahattan.
The name Bowling Green is from a park (still there) that dates from Dutch colonial times. Lawn bowling was played there when it was first built.
STOP..you're making too much sense.
Peace,
ANDEE
the sense i was gunning for ........ was i do beleive you have to ..
DE train at bowling green . ok ?? told 2 git off !! right ???...!
then i have to run to the platform on da' otha' sida' .....you dig ??
den' wait tll the 'boyd' returns to go back to yankee "s" ......
( it would B da' bomb if i could stay at da' railfan-window all thru
da' loop ............now weeeeesss makin' sense !!.....lol !!!
you're clueless.
Peace,
ANDEE
dont worry bout' me !
ladies first !
The poor man has as much of a Texan accent as I do (which is to say, none at all). He doesn't call Concourse Yard - having a D train show up on the structure would be considered bad. When the train is needed, he tells the tower at 149 St to give the line-up to the special. When the switch is thrown and the line-up comes in, the TO brings the train into 161. Upon returning north, the train is laid up in Jerome Yard (usually called Mosholu Yard).
maybe they can send a D train to the 4 platform...you know, for fireworks night. Just stand away from the edge
He'll also tell the Baseball Special that he's looking that he's ready for him. Especially the first special, since those guys tend to fall asleep, or read the newspaper during the long wait between the time you get to the Homesignal and the time you get called to go down the road. It's usually a two-hour wait.
I remember one night working the platform with him for a game. When it was time for the first special, no one answered him - not Mott, not Control, not the crew. I had to fight my way against the crowd to use the phone in the booth. The first call, Control hung up on me; the second call, they told me to get off the line, then hung up on me. The third time I had to tell them what we were going to do to them if they hung up again. We finally got our first train 20 minutes after asking for it.
Well depending on who the Yankees play, there could be 4-10 trainsets witing for the game. These trains sit on the middle track from 167 north until the game is over. These usually run to Bowling Green, but some find their way to Utica. BTW, the cowboy is a TSS and a well known TSS at that. Mott tower controls the baseball specials.
kinda reminds of how the mets trainz do laying up on the center
express trackz all around willets point & 111th street station ....
Well depending on who the Yankees play, there could be 4-10 trainsets waiting for the game. These trains sit on the middle track from 167 north until the game is over. These trains usually run to Bowling Green, but some find their way to Utica. BTW, the cowboy is a TSS and a well known TSS at that. Mott tower controls the baseball specials. After Utica, they return lite to MOSHOLU yard.
Here's how it's done. The crew office will assign approximately 5-6 extra T/O to jobs called "Baseball Specials". If you get one of these jobs, you will sign on at 13:00 for a weekend game, or 18:00 for a weeknight, unless otherwise told.
Baseball specials are numbered 1 through whatever number of trains are assigned to the job. Today, there were 6 Baseball specials. The first special will line up behind the Homeball on M track, just north of 167th. Additional specials will line up right behind Baseball special "1". When the game is over, the first special will get the line up, top green over bottom yellow, and will proceed directly to Yankee Stadium. Then, Baseball special number "2" will move up to the Homeball, and wait for the lineup. This process will continue until they have sent every special down the road.
Keep in mind, it's not at all uncommon for the TSS to decide that they don't need every Baseball special to go down the road. If this happens, they'll let the higher numbered special know that he needs to go back to the yard.
I use to love those jobs. C/R's would come in and do Platfrom at Woodlawn and then D/H to 161 Plat where you meet the Motor Instructor at 9PM sharp. I alway got 603 Baseball No.3. The only thing is you don't see your T/O until it over.
The only time I like doing the Baseball Special is when they schedule me to work with some of my classmates from school car. Otherwise, I can do without it. You can be on the train for 4 or 5 hours. And you never really know where you're going. Bowling Green? Utica? NEW LOTS? Prepare a train for service at the yard because you finished the day early? Too many questions. Give me a road job any day.
Oh my.... It looks like I'm changing schedules on 8/25 (tentatively). I was told that the ongoing dispute between the Clerks and Management has been resolved. For those tuning in, our new shedules were not put into effect. Six Clerks weren't told of the closing of Ocean Parkway and West 8th St for the Stillwell rehab project. When the booths closed on 9/8, they were to be put on the extra list and go anywhere they were needed. The 6 S/As wouldn't hear none of that. They were going to fight against Management. I guess arbitration didn't side with the protesting clerks, because our schedule is changing anyway!
Now it appears that dust has settled. I get to leave my comfy booth at Columbus Circle and head elsewhere. Give my regards to Broadway. I'm headed to the Zoo! Holy @#$%!
-Stef
What "Zoo?" The Bronx Zoo? You should have told me you were at Columbus Circle. I would have stopped by. Especially last week, when I was doing stuff at the NE exit on 57 St.
The Zoo resides on 42nd St. I only come to 59th St once a week.
-Stef
Ah. Well good luck. BTW, do you have a wireless laptop in the booth, or do you post when you go home? I assume it is the latter, but it would be cool if you could post from the booth :)
Thank You.
I post as soon as I get home, but a wireless laptop doesn't sound bad. Heh.
Regards,
Stef
Yeah Baby we always love New people at New Lots.I hope your ready for some wild nights.
Yeah, I am ready for anything. I don't think I'll be heading that far out though....
-Stef
Hey, Stef, working New Lots wouldn't be all that bad -- after all that's SubBus territory as well as Pelham Bay Dave on occassion...you'd run into at least two C/R's you that you know through SubTalk.
See ya Tuesday at the usual 'pick up' location at 9:00am.
I'm trying to get away from New Lots. Our RTO Pick goes in effect Sept.15. However I may take a New Lots # 5 assignment 1 day a week.
Who's going to ride the F G.O. today? I think I am.
Is it true that the MTA put a Metro-North P32 Loco on the LIRR Equipment, to see it's performance?
not that I know off, the MU receptacles on the Doubledeckers are different so a P32 can not test in push-pull.
I don't know what they would test it with.
So That's why Amtrak doesn't use their P32/40/42 in push Mode.
Amtrak does use the P32/p40/p42 in push mode.
on Vermonter and few other trains including the springfield - new haven shuttles.
its lirr equipment thats not compatible with standard railroad equipment.
NOTE TO DAVE P:
NOT 23rd STREET -ITS 14th STREET
This view is looking north from the south end of the uptown LOCAL Station platform of 14th street showing a southbond IRT MUDC El Local train stopping at opposite side.
23rd Street was an "humped" express station. 14th street, tho a wide crosstown street and express on the adjacent Lex subway, was a local stop on the EL.
Jeeze, Dave, I just cant understand how most anyone here could possibly have mistaken this scene locale--its so obvious, and it was only a short time ago, lesssseee now, that I also stood at this same platform, --47 years ago, with a camera.
Well, I know you will take care of it when you find some spare time ---will help out on corrections where I can as time permits. :) ;)
PS: I note a number of photos I have negatives to posted in your archives..so guess you do have a number of my print-extras from 2nd or 3rd hand sources --doesnt matter, I am not a copyright-ego nut freak - at least YOU have a great site putting the images OUT for the fan world and more to see before we are all gone from this place to the rails beyond...and it wont matter then --possibly no one will be around to remember it all or care anyway in 50 years !!
Regards as usual, Joe
Now let ME point out a most bogus example of copyright infringement--the markers on that Manhattan el identity thief train are red & green (looks like) which are the signature colors of the premier Brighton Beach Line service going back to Park Row days.
BRT/BMT fans will not be fooled by imposters!
That's got me thinking... if only the BMT had taken over the 3rd Avenue (Manhattan) El. Build a link from the line over the Brooklyn Bridge and wow, wouldn't that've been a ride! Anyone for 241st St to Brighton Beach?
HEEEeeeyyyyyy --- (heh heh heh) and all day back and forth for a nickel.
HOWEVER --big problem ---many of the BMT EL Gate cars then sporting outboard marker lights would have to have had their markers moved INBOARD and to the slope of the upper clerestory roofs - as HAD to be done to the ex- BMT EL Q types from Queens service in 1949-50...when they went to 3rd ave El for express-servivce use only...to replace the aging worn out 1904 ex-IRT subway express-use-only composites.
The test run of a Q-type trainset on 3rd Ave. El in late 1949, still sporting its BMT position "lower, outer roof markers, had the station-platform side of the carbody roof markers "clipped off" by the low and "beyond the platform edge a bit"
station platform canopies of the 1880's Manhattan El style for its stations !!!!
So---the BMT would have had to reposition all markers on such cars, or use only their older el cars that ALREADY had, for some reason, the IRT position style roof markers (on the clerestory roof slope)
However, yeah, hell, that would be one hell of a long point to point, City northerly edge to City
southernmost water-edge...for a nickel !!
Interesting ---but we KNOW the connection could have been done on the Manhattan side of the BB Bridge
Regards - Joe
So---the BMT would have had to reposition all markers on such cars, or use only their older el cars that ALREADY had, for some reason, the IRT position style roof markers (on the clerestory roof slope)
Don't be silly. You just trim the offending canopies.
However, yeah, hell, that would be one hell of a long point to point, City northerly edge to City
southernmost water-edge...for a nickel !!
Interesting ---but we KNOW the connection could have been done on the Manhattan side of the BB Bridge
It would have taken a bit of doing to angle around from BMT Park Row to the City Hall Manhattan El branch on Park Row--you might have been able to manage it if you tore down City Hall--but probably worth it for such a ride!
Paul -
Trim all the offending IRT El station platform canopies ????!!!!---that would be EVERY 1880's era local station (both sides) along the whole line ---the upper level and Bowery express station canopies were Contract-I and newer 1915 built design standards and cleared OK.....nah, easier to put them BMT El Roof outer marker lights in the more appealing IRT inner position.
Hey, they didnt trim the "offending canopies" off all those 3rd ave El "offending stations" for the Q types in 1949-50 --they moved the marker lights inboard instead.
At Manhattan side of Bklyn Bridge - the new elevated curve structures would have to start coming, curving northward, off the northern side edge of the bridge BEFORE its roadways touched Park Row proper---meaning the famed trainshed would have to be removed and a new Park Row (nee: City Hall IRT) thru-station fabricated by moving the 3rd Ave. El's existing Double deck City Hall station's southern end back a bit further northeasterly over Park Row ---like they also did when the City improved the Manhattan side bridge approaches (after BMT el service stopped and trainshed was removed)...and they did infact cut back City Hall stations' ending facade about 80 + feet to the North on Park Row...most of it "the large City Hall terminal head house" space and a bit of the bumper-block ends platforming removed. A smaller profile head house resulted, much narrower across Park row.
The BMT trains could have come into the new revised IRT City Hall 2 deck station, and departed from same back to the bridge, via two levels on each track: The single inbound BMT el Bridge north side track switching to 2 tracks, one going downward to the 3rd Ave Line lower level uptown track side, the other ramping up to the 2nd Ave.Line upper level uptown track above it. Returning BMT tracks from the IRT City Hall station would curve left to the bridge from both southbound upper (2 Ave El) and lower (3 Ave El) City Hall station tracks at the stations southerly end, and the BMT tracks would twin-ramp to meet at grade and become the single Brooklyn bound track on the southerly side of the Bklyn Bridge.
And all those outboard position BMT marker lights would have to be changed, and the IRT would finally have their trackage rights to Coney Island and Brighton Beach realized !!!
And NATURALLY, Paul, the INTERBOROUGH - following always the heels and style of MAINLINE Big railroads like the PRR, NYCRR & NHRR, would have RUN the service and controlled the routing.
You dont think they would leave that to the "trolley car mentality" BMT system guys, do you ??? (heh heh)
Paul, I smell smoke, is your hair getting hot, and your nostrils smkoing - time to hop on the Brighton to the beach to cool off - catch the next IRT Composite or MUDC trainset out that way ---via Fulton street El, Franklin and ---oh, well, pipe dreams !
regards - Joe
OK, OK, Joe.
I would propose a simple lever mechanism that would allow the BMT el car marker lights to retract into a well in the lower roof whenever the cars approached an IRT station canopy, and then pop out again when the station was passed. Who says I can't compromise?
Those inboard markers just look too, well, cross-eyed.
Your proposal to connect the BB BMT with the City Hall branch IRT is intriguing, but what would happen to the passengers on both systems who wanted to exit at City Hall?
I have an even better idea! Run both lines into a new station further down Park Row, then switch the trains back for through service. The BMT riders wouldn't mind riding backwards to the Bronx. They'd want to keep beloved Brooklyn in sight for as long as possible anyway.
But seriously, if they had ever been able to through-route the lines we could have had a party together. First you'd take me to the Bronx Zoo where the monkeys could have a great time looking at two railfans, then we'd ride together on the long distance excursion of a lifetime for clams and beer at Coney Island!
Ah, I can smell the saly breeze now! :)
That's a pretty interesting shot there. You can even see the top of the Empire State in the backround above the building with the mansard tyoe roof. It's amazing how ornate those stations were. Joe, around when was that photo taken?
Also what do you mean by a "humped" express station at 23rd? (I know the express track was higher than the local tracks on some els in Manhattan, I don't know if that has anything to do with it.)
Chris
When the el was originally built, it had only local tracks but space was provided for a center express track, but not for island platforms between the express track and the local tracks. Therefore, when the express track was added, they had to raise it up at the express stations (giving it the "hump" appearance) to make room for the express platforms over the local tracks. I remember riding the express a couple of times in the early 1950's. I also remember riding the open enders on the Jamaica Ave el in the 40's (hate to admit!).
That's what I figured, so the "express" stations were actually a "side" platform in the air on top of one of the "local" side platforms? I don't know if I ever saw a photo of those express stations.
If I recall correctly (and it's been half a century), there were side platforms on both sides of the express track, covering both local tracks.
Here are a couple of photos from Dave's site:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/old-els/manhattan/manel46.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/old-els/manhattan/manel22.jpg
Pretty neat. Those must've been some high stations!
Hello Guys ---
I BUILT a scale HO Model (!0 feet long, modular sections) of a Manhattan El express station---architecturally correct...still have it set up - SUB TALKERS "BMT Man" (Doug D, Thurston & Bklyn Lou saw it when the three visited my home and the O Scale El layout a few weeks ago.
In that Manhnattan only-used- design, the clerestory roofs of the locals just fit like a glove into the space between the two paralleling express platform main edge-support girders of each upper level platform over each lower local track.
The center track was only 3/4 way raised to just below the adjoining local car roof heights of local trains on the lower level.---- -the express track rail heads were approximately level with the top edge of the letterboards of the lower level locals. This meant, except for higher center track at 125th Street, that all raised express tracks were too low to permit a local to switch local tracks from one side to the other side --up to downtown and vice versa, - within the 5 blocks long assembly of up ramp, station, and down ramp. The 125th street Express station construction provided for a much higher center track at its express station due to the 129th St. yard entry tracks to and from the el, and needing space height provisions for crossing local tracks back and forth between 126th & 129th streets under the overhead express track. THAT track stayed elevated as you all should know ---straight above the lower level, around into 129th st. station, and became 2 tracks on the upper level just before it turned north at 2nd Avenue (and connected with the 2nd Ave El there) to go over the upper 2-track level of the EL's double deck Harlem River Bridge to the Bronx. Just some history - & boy, what you guys all missed !!
regards - Joe
Yeah, it's a shame I missed it. Even though it was just 3/4 raised, they must have been pretty high, and that with the wood platforms and wood cars! I'm sure they shook when a train went through!
It has to be a post-1951 photo; IIRC the Empire State Building got its antenna that year and that antenna is plainly visible.
23rd Street was an "humped" express station. 14th street, tho a wide crosstown street and express on the adjacent Lex subway, was a local stop on the EL.
What about the possibility of it being the 18th St station?
It is 14th St because of one of the buildings in the picture is currently standing on 14th St.
Judging by the angle the photo is at, with the Empire State in the background, the lower building just behind the el station would have to be at 15th Street, if it is the 14th St. station, or else you would be able to see part of the Con Ed building in the upper left side of the photo (the building takes up the western half the block between 14th-15th and Third and Irving Place -- the part near Third has been Con Ed's parking lot for as long as I remember, but since the el was gone two years before I arrived, I don't know what building previously was on that site).
On the other hand, if it's the 18th Street station, then that tall buulding to the right of the Empire State would be at about 20th St. and its western (left) side would be bordering Gramercy Park. They have put up some new apartment buildings along Third Ave. between 14th and 23rd Sts. over the past 47 years, but AFAIK, nothing new has gone in around the park. So if that is the 18th St. station, that building should still be there.
or else you would be able to see part of the Con Ed building
The eastern, unadorned facade of the Con Ed building is clearly visible.
A new 2002 edition(15th) of the popular "London Underground Rolling Stock"
by capital Transport is due out soon, the last edition (14th) was released back in 1997 so it's sure been a while however other than the passing of the 1959/62 stock and new arrivals on Docklands Light Railway the roster has changed very little in the past five years...........
Rob :^)
Thanks Rob, I'll check it out at the Museum Shop.
Simon
Swindon UK
TO: DAVE P - Caption Correction
This is looking north from south end of downtown local platform of the 59th Street 3rd Ave El Station. Been there already !
Bloomingdales is out of view at left. The train is a northbound Q type express passing thru on center track in the afternoon rush hour. Next station north is 67th street local stop - next to Manhattan House. Next stop for the Q type Express -which has left 42nd Street express --(and passed 2 local stops, 53rd & 47th Sts, below 59th St)-- is at 106th street in Harlem..then 125th street and into the Bronx.
Gads, Dave, this was a real easy one --- who could forget 59th & 3rd and going down the old narrow wooden "EL Escalator" on the NW corner (slowest in the world - I used to walk it faster) from the downtiown platform ---down to "Bloomies" - and lunch later at Calico Kitchen Restaurant on 57th street....seems like yesterday.....
Regards - Joe
AND ITS (sigh !) ALL GONE FOREVER - ITS OVER !!
AND ITS (sigh !) ALL GONE FOREVER - ITS OVER !!
Well, be glad you at least had the honor of actually being there. Manhattan and the els seemed do "colorful" from those photos. I wish I had to chance to ride them! Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go back in time for even one day.
> Gads, Dave, this was a real easy one --- who could forget 59th & 3rd
Well, uh, I figure most of us here never saw the Els in Manhattan. :)
Hey, I even missed the Myrtle El by one year!
Look at the bright side, Dave. You can still look at 59th & 3rd. There's just no el there! :)
>>>>
AND ITS (sigh !) ALL GONE FOREVER - ITS OVER !!
<<<<<
It's not over, it's merely entering a new phase. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
There's a certain "what-doesn't-belong-here" incongruity between the el and the Q cars being in the foreground and the apartment buildings in the background. Those types of apartments -- white buildings with balconies -- are common now, but didn't really come into vogue until the early 1960s, after all the Manhattan els were long gone. What apartment high rises there were at the time were usually red/brown brick and without balconies.
All the other buildings you can see the tops of look perfectly normal sitting next to the el tracks. I just didn't realize Manhattan House pre-dated the demolition of the el.
TO: J Lee
Hello ---yes - good observation, but as usual, there is fact and logic as to why its there--re: The Manhattan House;
In November 1946, the Third Avenue Railway System streetcar (all conduit powered) operation shut down completely in Manhattan only. It was replaced by the red and cream MACK and GM model busses operated by the "Surface Transportation System" Corp. (STS)
The TARS system had a huge repair and carbarn storage facility.on the site of the Manhattan House Most of the lightweight "streamliner" TARS cars were Built From Scratch in the late 1930's in those shops, and earlier, single trucker "round roof cars" were spliced to make the longer double trucked "modern style" cars most of us are familiar with for TARS. THIS WAS A FUll SCALE STREETCAR version of Coney Island Shops.
Getting back on focus, in 1947 real estate devleloper-investors gathered to pick up on this one whole square block of even back then CHOICE upper east side real estate ground.
The Carbarns ran from 65th to 66th along Third Avenue's east curb line (uptown El track side) and had its all its main entryways fronting the El and 3rd Avenue. There were multiple streetcar trackways coming off the Third Avenue Trolley line (under the EL) going in northbound curves into a number of carbarn bay-entryways. Ground level Entrances for Management and operations offices, located on the second floor, facing The EL, were at the center area of the buuilding along 3rd Avenue.
The sides ran down 65th and 66th streets to Second Avenue, with the rear of the property fronting on 2nd Avenue between those two side streets. A LARGE plot of choice ground !!
The Barns were eventually demolished and ground cleared off around late 1947 to begin construction of a "moderne" state of the art up scale new apartment complex that - with garages,
encompassed the whole square block...thus the tremendous girth and height of the building. It became the model and fore-runner, 20 years ahead of its time, for what was to come to Third Avenue in a frenzy of high-rise behemoth real estate construction.
The building was completed between 1948 and 1949 and had the 67th street Local Station of the 3rd Ave El right up the next block.
However, up around 72nd Street & 79th street, both main wide crosstown streets, there were then, and still are now, some older 1930 era quite very high luxury apartment buildings fronting on Third Avenue and running up and down across E. 79th Street.
At 81st St. was and still is the HUGE Manhattan Storage on the east side of the Avenue taking up 1/4 of a block girth square.
The high, huge Jacob Rupert Brewery dominated 92 Street & 3rd back then since turn of the century, now long gone and replaced by high-rise homes.
And, in 1949 " High-Rise" low-income housing Projecs were going up in the 98th to 102 Street areas along the east curbline (and uptown track) of the El and Third Avenue...going down towards 2nd Avenue.
Likewise, when the 99th Street Shops & Yards of the 3rd Ave. El closed in 1950 and were demolished in 1951, 2 high rise better-scale "project type" structures towered high over the El and its 99th & 3rd Avenue corner Powerhouse along the west curbline (downtown track) side of the Third avenue El.
So, you see, the trend was in its infacny...and even in midtown in the early 50's, high-rise structures were going up along the el between 34th Street and 44th street...relacing blocks of 4 to 6 story tenements with shops below.
Second Avenue also has its share of high-rise growth, long after "its" el came down in 1940 above 59th street, and 1942 below 59th st, to Chatham Square.
ONE FINAL tidbit. In 1878 until about 1908, the 2nd Ave El had its OWN elevated shops and layup yard coming off its El, on the grounds located across 66th Street from the TARS streetcar shops and barns - a rail paradise in upper-midtown Manhattan then for any "fans" that might have been around. The 2nd Ave El shops and trackage ran up to the rear sidewalk line of Third Avenue, and took up the whole south side curbside of 67th Street from 3rd to 2nd Avenue --and likewise the north side curbside of 66th street between those two Avenues.
This yard was from the late 1870's steam era period of the 2nd Ave El, which was a separate company from the one that built and operated the Third Avenue El back at that time. Therefore, the 3rd Ave. El never had any track connection to the 2nd Ave El yard area.
The yard EL complex..already 30 years old and duplicated other places by consolidation of the 4 Manhattan els into the IRT in 1902, was removed by 1908 and standard tenements and brownstone multiple unit apartment "walk-up" houses comntemporary to that period, were erected on the former El Yard grounds.
Well, I guess I more than covered your posted inquiries. Thanks for your interest !!
Regards - Joe
Joe:
Thanks for the background info on the photo's background. Since I was born two years after the el came down (and lived two blocks from the el's former location), I always heard from my dad that pretty much nothing new had been built on Third Ave. until after the el was torn down (along with those long-tube flouresent street light posts that Third Ave. sported by the time I was old enough to remember anything). A changing Third Ave., with the old buildings coming down and the new ones going up, especially between 34th and 72nd Sts.,is how I remember the avenue from the 1960s. (there may have been some other pre-el buildings that had gone up, but the maze of office tower construction on Third in midtown -- including the one my dad ended up working in at 49th St. -- was its main feature duing that period).
When I've seen Manhattan House in the past, I always assumed it was at best a late 1950s building, like most of the others of similar design. Now I know better.
>>Gads, Dave, this was a real easy one --- who could forget 59th & 3rd and going down the old narrow wooden "EL Escalator" on the NW corner (slowest in the world - I used to walk it faster) from the downtiown platform ---down to "Bloomies" - and lunch later at Calico Kitchen Restaurant on 57th street....seems like yesterday..... <<
Perhaps for you Joe. Considering I was 4 years old at the time the El was discontinued I never would have recognized it either.
Now if it was the Bronx section.....
Allan
THEN YOU WOULD REMEMBER THIS CAR TYPE AND APPRECIATE THIS SHOT OF MY MODEL IRT Low-V W/F CAR SHOT ON MY EL !! Almost like being in Da BRONKS again!
Hi Alan ---Ok Ok Ok --yeah - I know !! :) :)
I was just tightening some lose chain (heh heh ) here and there---I mean, I remember when I was 40 and talking to my pal Ed Watson who regaled me with stories of his photo escapades on the els in the early 30's and later---and Steve Maguire (hello, anyone out there remember him, the RR & traction writer --) --its sad and lonely talking about people you knew - full of life, fans like us NOW, who are now gone --with their memories...but their WORK lives on..I guess thats what its all about for me, --and jesus - old Father "IRT" Cosgrove from my Church at St. Ignatius Loyola, Manhattan ---now THERE is something you guys missed - a R/C priest regularly operating 3rd Ave EL and subway line trains in the "collar" many times ---Kevin remembers reading-seeing all those memories coming across at "my place" ( My forum board) --Yo Kevin, ever meet "Franny Cosgrove" in your cab??
Well, Allan, I covered the Bronx 3rd ave El and have loads of shots on that--it lasted longer --and I am just as fond of IT as the Manhattan part...so dont feel left out --but yeah, you reach a certain point in life and there less and less people around who remember what you remember --and that gets scary !!
Paul Matus knows that feeling --when we rode the Brighton line together in our previous lives (heh) at the "dawn" of BRT electrification (when he fell down the embankment ) ---beginning to sound like Hey Paul --I'll be leaving now !!
regards - Joe
So you would appreciate this model view !!
IRT Steinways on my O scale NY EL
Amazingly, no ... I don't think Father Cosgrove ever "blessed" my cab (at least with me IN it) and having studied for the priesthood when I was 17 (until the retreat ended and we were told there'd be no cab blessing in the church - they lose a LOT of potential priests with THAT revelation) I've never been "antsy" around priests - many were caught quite off guard by my not cow-towing or fearing them so we always got along fine, especially at bars when the "parishners" left.
I would have loved to have met him, and now knowing that he DID know how to operate, I would have let him sneak a handle pull or three while I was on the rails. Left hand DID get tired after a long run for those who have never done it - anyone who was QUALIFIED, I would have gladly given the left hand a rest. After all, the LEFT hand is the one that did the work in two-fisted operation - the RIGHT hand for most males is the one possessing the "strength" from all that NON-handle "pulling" ... I'll leave it there. :)
"One hand, I can barely lift the covers - the OTHER hand can crush a truck. Word."
Bar room rummie ---heh BTW "Fatha 'IRT' Cosgrove"
translates to :
Father "IRISH RAPID TRANSIT" Francis Cosgrove SJS"
Guess what - I ( MOI) did my brainwash to priesthood
retreats at "Dunwoodie" (remember THAT place) - yeah - I had the "calling" --but I also had a steady girlfriend on the other side --- conflict - and talking about hands ---(Heypaul told me to "staaaap it"--so I will now--heh)--
Yepper, those nuns and priests worked ya over on the " recruitment mindsets "...wonder if I could have hacked it...i KNOW I woudnt have the layouts and rolling stock I have now !!!
Anyway, "Franny" normally would do a whole trip or two while the M/M (so-called before T/O) would close up the other el car cab at # 2 end and take a long snooze in privacy--but he was always near the "point" if Franny needed him !!
Once when he pulled the train into an El Local Station, his Monsignor- (superior) was at the mid platform on the el, so I was told. Their EYES spotted each other. Franny slowed to the stop-marker - dumped it, ran back & got the M/M from the rear cab, switced places, and saw the MONs
yanking the storm doors from car to car working his way towards the front car.
Franny hid in # 2 cab vacated by the formerly snoozing M/M and locked the door (cabs on IRT gate and MUDC el cars were IN THE CAR-BODY --not on the vestibule platform,--this was an IRT EL MUDC Motor car ) --and the MONs charged up to the front cab and there was the regular motorman, all "cool" and "nonchalent" charging up his air pipe line --- "why, hello, faathaa, taap-pa theee day te ya..!!!"..and the look on the Monsignoir's face was priceless Franny said the M/M tod him later, (Monsignor in "Church Ranking" is like a Segrgeant would be to a (priest) patrolman for non Catholics out there) ----with disbelief of being sure he SAW FRANNY in the operating cab.
Gotta go now Kevin --work tonite --sleep now
regards - Joe
AW GEEZ Unca Joe ... now YOU'RE doing exactly what you've been whining about. Heh. This thread's about to go *SO* off-topic and off the deep end, they won't be able to see the redbirds down there for all the sedeiment THIS is gonna stir up. I don't wanna hear ANY more complaining about "off topic" outta YER smelly arse ANYMORE. :)
Dunwoodie was where I would have ended up - saving grace is I went FRANCISCAN so I went to GREYMOOR. Whoops. :)
But I'd talk to brother "Elias" ... seems they let *HIM* have choo-choos and he's STILL "with the show." And as to "da fodder" ... ministries are ministries and it ain't like he STOLE the damned train like I once did in my own irresponsible "yoot", taking a #1 Broadway local on a Saturday morning with my 15 year old buddies and ABD'ing it at 191 ... I was never caught either though we had the 50 and a few other precincts with radio cars trying to keep up with us as they had to climb St Nicholas and we on the purloined train DIDN'T. Heh.
Mind ya, I'd been *TOLD* about him by a few of my coworkers and was also told "he'll run it better than YOU will, give him the handles if he wants them." But I never encountered him myself, at least not in my face. I *did* however have many a conversation with a number of priests with my cab door wide open, so it's POSSIBLE that I may have ran into him, but he never asked to take over on any of my runs. Since I had heard of him and the TA wasn't anywhere NEAR as nuts as it is today (they were GRATEFUL when you got to the other end and didn't much care HOW you got there as long as you DID) so I would likely have let him get some if he'd asked and let me know that he was the guy I was told about ...
Folks don't really understand the old days and how bored out of our TEAT motormen were on the same old same old ... when someone we knew got on the train and wanted to shoot the sheet, GREAT! If it was a kid who was inquisitive and not looking like they'd get in trouble or cause any, we'd leave the door open and let them see how it all went ... man, those days are *OVER* with all the paranoia these days. And it's a DAMNEd shame. Where will the "Future Foamers of America" come from now that we're locked in an "undisclosed, secure location?" :)
I guess what I'm saying is "Jesus didn't ride the IND." :)
Tom Seaver was asked by Sandy Koufax during the 1969 World Series if he thought God was a Met fan. Seaver replied, "I don't know, but I think God has an apartment in New York."
Our Archbishop is a Franciscan. I met him last fall after a concert we did at the Cathedral in Denver. So is this Lithuanian bishop who makes his headquarters in Brooklyn. My folks have known him for 50 years.
Since Dave seems receptive to at least assemble a list of photos with challenged locations, here are a few:
This is http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg05.jpg, and is simply labeled "Mytle el." This could be claraified. If we are 100% sure it is Myrtle el, it would have to be Grand Ave. looking east to Franklin Ave. in the background. Otherwise I would propose the possibility it is Van Siclen Avenue of the Fulton looking west toward Pennsylvania. However, there would have been a crossover at one time in the near foreground if it was Fulton. Any other proposals?
This is http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg18.jpg, and is labeled ?? myrtle ave line?--this is definitely Myrtle looking west from Central Avenue toward Broadway. You can see the tracks spreading for the connection to the Broadway L and the Broadway-Myrtle tower in the distance.
This is http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg30.jpg. Small point. The caption says this is Greene Avenue/Lex L train headed for Bridge-Jay. The curve in the near background says it is headed the other way. Plus the destination board says "Eastern Parkway." A whoopsie? ;-)
This is http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg42.jpg and it is a bete noir of mine, since we have been told it was also identified in a Transit Museum exhibit as a Sands Street Express, same caption as here (but here with a ?, at least). It is on the Myrtle Avenue L taken during the 1958 "Farewell to the Gate Cars" fantrip. Below is a picture taken on the same fantrip, possibly a Henry Raudenbush photo. Location is Canarsie Line. Note the "MBA" letters under the motorman's cab. There was still a lot of sympathy for the Motorman's Benevolent Association, killed by the TWU, on the BMT at the time. The kid sticking his head outside the bars is me, next to me (with the pipe) is my dad, Mike (Matthew) Matus. The person immediately in front of my dad may be Gerry Landau. And I think the railfan walking back in the car is Ray Berger. It's been a little while...:)
Paul, thanks very much for sharing those photos and your identifications. Joe McMahon (who missed that railfan trip)
Thanks, I added all the corrections to the database for those.
TO PAUL MATUS--
Paul, your first photo at topBMT g05 IS MOST DEFINATELY Grand Ave. Station on Myrtle --looking north from the junction with Lex EL behind us, as taken FROM the overhead walkway above the tracks. The train is northbound to the next island platform (stated) stop, and the platform at right connects at its south end --at a right angle, to the one and only Grand Ave. platfiorm of the Lex Line ---that being the Lex "inbound track" platform...there was never any outbound-track platform. The overpass connected with it and the two outside Myrtle platforms...the only outside platforms on the Myrtle Line thru its whole length >ABOVE< Bridge street (later the terminal) station.
YES, that IS a young Ray Berger, how well I remember him from ERA HQ in 1961 down at 145 Greenwich street (obliterated by the impending, then new WTC construction, now its ALL gone ) and thereafter --real tall guy..he worked (motorman I believe at some time) for the TA then---is he still "around" Paul ?? (ie: "with us")
Good job on the captions Paul ---lets email to figure a fair billing charge to Dave for "Archival tech support services" (heh heh - smoke wisps coming from someones' ears --sniff, sniff !)
Regards - Joe
Ps: watch your step getting off those BU gate cars at night in the dark !
I sure hope Ray is still with us. He wasn't all that old back in 1958. I recently saw an article written by Frank Voyticky, but the last time I saw him in person we were both kids playing with his Swedish trolley in the Avenue X SBK yard.
It was a genuine shock to me when we lost Roger Arcara. Though younger, he was definitely one of the crew of genuine old-fashioned gentlemen of the hobby that included Herman Rinke, Paul Renault, Dave Rogoff, George Horn and Arthur Lonto. We still have Arthur and I believe George Horn is still cable-car riding. Herman and Dave have passed on. I haven't heard from Paul in 20 years. Anyone know of him?
The thought of these gentlemen all bring a smile to my face: history buffs all and all had time to encourage a young railfan.
Paul, Joe
Good news, Ray Berger IS still with us. See him occasionally when Bill "Newkirk" and I visit Don Harold.
All the best, Mike aka "Hot Lunch" Herer
Ah, that's good to hear! If you think of it, mention me to him and Don when you visit, and give 'em all my best wishes!
Ps: watch your step getting off those BU gate cars at night in the dark !
Yeah, that could be dangerous.
BTW, I notice on this photo below of "Greene" on the Myrtle El, one side has a low level platform, while the other side seems to have a high level platform. Was that typical, or was that just something at that station?
When did they actually eliminate the last low level platforms on the els, and does anyone know the last station to have them (if it wasn't an entire el that had them before it was abandoned)?
>>I notice on this photo below of "Greene" on the Myrtle El, one side has a low level platform, while the other side seems to have a high level platform.<<
That's the Lexington Ave Line in that photo. There is no low level platform in that photo or on that line either.
Bill "Newkirk"
Is that just the angle of the photo? I could swear the platform on the left looks like a low level platform.
No, a real low level platform was virtually on the ground, and you went down steps to reach it. After the surface operations ended, all the BUs had the steps eliminated.
The platform you're looking at is simply lower than the car floor. You had to step down slightly when you got off, and step up slightly when you got on.
Oh, I'm sorry, it just looked like a low level platform at first glance. I thought I saw "low level" platforms in other el photos also, but must have been mistaken.
The platform you're looking at is simply lower than the car floor. You had to step down slightly when you got off, and step up slightly when you got on.
Not as weird as some stations on the London Underground - you step down onto the train and up off it onto the platform. IIRC everything on the Bakerloo Line North of Queen's Park is like that.
The platform you're looking at is simply lower than the car floor. You had to step down slightly when you got off, and step up slightly when you got on.
Not as weird as some stations on the London Underground - you step down onto the train and up off it onto the platform. IIRC everything on the Bakerloo Line North of Queen's Park is like that.
That seems counter-intuitive to me. You're used to stepping up into a vehicle and stepping down when you get out, unless you're getting in a rowboat, maybe.
Do some people stumble getting in because of the unexpected drop?
Do some people stumble getting in because of the unexpected drop?
It's not really that unexpected. I mean it's pretty obvious from the platform. The Bakerloo Line of course uses tube trains, which are small and low, and the platforms North of Queens Park are Main Line platforms, which are high. It's really quite a difference in height. I suppose a drunk might not notice it, but anyone else would see immediately. The blind might have problems.
This is http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg30.jpg. Small point. The caption says this is Greene Avenue/Lex L train headed for Bridge-Jay. The curve in the near background says it is headed the other way. Plus the destination board says "Eastern Parkway." A whoopsie? ;-)
Was the Lexington Avenue El a left hand operation then? Or was the Greene Avenue stop not at Greene Avenue? The curve seems to be going left with the train on the left hand track, suggesting that the train is coming out of the curve, which would be towards Park Row, not Eastern Parkway. Is there something I've missed?
The curve is the background was the little dog-leg (s-curve) just west (north) of Greene at (IIRC) Grand and Lafayette. Like many Brooklyn streets, Greene made a little jog rather than being dead-straight.
You're thinking of the 90 degree curve onto Lex, which was at the other end of the station.
Ya' see? This is how you can get fooled. You need to know a decent amount of arcana to ID old photos.
Oops - of course - the street the curve's on continues to the right of the photo, which Lexington Avenue wouldn't. Damn that was obvious.
Good point, James! I didn't even look in that direction.
Had me fooled. I was thinking the same thing as James. I missed ALL of this.
While we're at it, here's another incorrectly labeled photo from the "newest images" section. It's labeled as Forest Avenue. I don't know where it is, but it's definitely not Forest Ave, as Forest is an island platform station. It may be Knickerbocker or Central because the girders are in for a center track, which those stations have. http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg-1360b.jpg
And this one is labeled "Jamaica El", but is really Knickerbocker Ave on the M line. http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg-1310a.jpg
Looking at the consist and general appearance on the top photo, do you suppose it might be the back of an eastbound Lex at Forest Parkway?
Just a wild guess.
Yeah that would be my guess. There were a bunch of photos that just said "Forest". When I normalized the datbase-- had to make some guesses. THanks for the help guys.
Ah, I didn't think of Forest Parkway - it could be almost any station on the Jamaica line (or Knickerbocker or Central on the M). Most likely it's Forest Parkway, since the photographer labeled it "Forest". I just knew it wasn't Forest Avenue.
It is hard to tell in the first picutre but it appears that there is a center trackway. This couldn't be Forest Parkway. Your first hunch is probably right and the picture was probably mislabeled.
You know, after I posted that it may be Forest Parkway because it said "Forest", I looked at the photo again, and you are right, I think my first hunch was correct. There IS no center trackway girders at Forest Parkway, and as far as I know, there never was. Maybe Joe will know a little more about it.
That means it could only be Knickerbocker or Central on the M, because I don't think any of the Jamaica El stations ever had that center girder for a trackway (except the ones that always had tracks, like 111th St and 160th street, but they always had tracks on it).
That means it could only be Knickerbocker or Central on the M
More precisely, the train is an MJ or 11 Train. If you look closely at the destination board, you can just about read "Bridge / Jay Sts". The configuration of the station means that it has to be one of those two stations. I'd go with Central, because IIRC Knickerbocker has a really butt ugly building just behind that canopy on the Downtown bound side.
A Lex would have had Bridge/Jay also, after 1944.
Grrr dammit - you're right - it could possibly be a 12 train from 1944-1950 (unless there's a way of eliminating that time period). I can't see any candidates that would add though - grimace is right about the structure of the middle trackway.
Here's another. It's unlabeled as to a location, but I am 100% sure that is at Seneca Ave on the M line - it still looks like that today.
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg-1360a.jpg
Here's another. It's unlabeled as to a location, but I am 100% sure that is at Seneca Ave on the M line - it still looks like that today.
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-g/bmtg-1360a.jpg
It does look like it was taken at the north end of Seneca Ave station looking north. The big building behind the train is JHS 93 (I went there)
I updated that one this morning! Crossed in the mail I guess :-)
TO: DAVE P. Archives - Photo Caption Correction
Dave - this IS THE IRT 147-148th street Riverfront yards along the Harlem River in Manhattan. located just across and a few blocks south of below the Macombs Dam Bridge from Bronx (and the Yankee stadium next to the Bridge).
The view is looking northwesterly to and along the west bank of the Harlem River, along the straight main frontage of the Harlem River way, following the rivers Southeasterly angle flow, and the layup yards BEHIND and to the right rear of the "coal facility" ran due west and east.
The 7th Ave. tunnel exit portal at approx 147th (out of view to the left-middle of this photo) Street led the tracks out, going due north, and they curved at approx 45 degree angle due northwest justefoetheagled river-edge, to BEHIND the photo's coal structure and ladder tracks fanned out into shops and multiple parallel layup tracks running east to west behind this scene
The track at the lower left end of the photo (with the Hi-V work train on it) curved to the right 45 degrees and went south directly into a switch connecting to the tunnel entry-exit tracks. At the right top side (in photo) the track turned 45 degrees left (west direction) and paralleled and connected to the northern-most-side layup tracks running east to west, from Harlem River side inward.
HI-V cars were gone from passenger and a few years following, work service, (by 1963) long before the single track conection to the IND 207thSt. yards and the IRT Broadway El was installed, and the IRT's 240th Street far inland, Riverdale yards were no where next to the Harlem River nor had riverside coal tipple facility.....very (heh) obviously as anyone who has visited there or 207 street knows.
The 147th - 148th streets external IRT yards and shops and coal facility were removed many years (IIRC probably over 25 +) ago when the IND 207th Street yard AND REPAIR SHOPS (via one-track connecton provision from the EL) and 240th street layup Yard and mantenance facilty (built for the IRT Broadway EL in 1906-8) shared the duties performed by the abandoned original 1904 IRT waterfront facility.
Hope this helps ----I believe housing was built on the yard grounds - projects probably...others can comment on the contemporary (now) look of the site.
I have a very few pics of this yard. It was the FIRST and ONLY layup and total "repair - rebuild" - & "build new" carshop IRT facility for the lst subway in 1904. Many work cars and subway car conversions (Center doors added to Composites, Gibbs and Deckers, MUDC added, new trucks built for Composites for El use (and later Q type use) --much more - were all done here by IRT shop crews --THESE WERE real railroad men and Pros.
Enough now - hope this helps you Dave .
REGARDS ---JOE
I'm back after a one week vacation at the beach and I want to let you guys know that I am flying into Newark on Friday. I will be attending the 50th wedding anniversary of my Aunt Catherine and Uncle Roland on Saturday in Asbury. I will have a car and could drive back to Newark to take a train into the City for a railfan trip on Sunday, or even part of Monday since my plane leaves at 5:00 p.m. Anyone want to join me I would be delighted.
I'd love to join you, but this Friday is my last day in NYC for a while. I'm heading back upstate to finish my last semester of college. Of course I'll be back in NYC for the reopening of the line to South Ferry, but that's it until at least late December 2002 or January 2003. Have fun next week!
Asbury or Asbury Park? If it's Asbury Park, you're near me... let me know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon, it is Asbury. Marty Siegal and I are going to meet in Raritan and take the train into Newark and then NYC. If there is some way we could touch base I'd be delighted. As soon as I get info from Marty I will pass it along to you. Hopefully we will have a small contingent to railfan that day.
The only thing I can offer you is Path into Manhattan and connecting trains to Willets Point Boulevard. We have Met tickets for Sunday.
Do you know Marty Siegal? He and I are going to meet in Raritan and take the train into Neward and then NYC. He works for the railroad. I hope you enjoy the game? Who are the Mets playing anyway?
I don't know him. Are you going to be on PATH? If so, at what time? The Mets are playing the Dodgers.
I've noticed around the streets of New York, there would be "closed-in" pickup trucks (I don't know what else to call them) or "boxed trucks" (or what Entenmann's use or Frito-Lay trucks) which have the MTA logo and a text line below it.
They range from:
TRACK
TRACK MAIN.
TEST
Are there any others? These are from the best of my memory. What are they transporting down the streets of New York?
There is also CED/Structures/Ironwork/elevators/signals....you name it. Sometimes these trucks move crews from 'home' because you HAVE to punch the timeclock. Others move hardware. I did a day on one...picking up New Tech manuals from Jay Street and on to Coney Island to pick up NewTech gauges not yet ready. Simpler and cheaper to FEDEX but everyone has work everday...this is TA...the traditon is to find everyone work to do. Two in a cab for heavy work...safety first. Gung Ho. CI Peter
If the trains aren't running, and you need parts from the other end of Manhattan to get them going again, then you need a truck!
FEDEX delivers ontime...TA delivers on the time clock
Will FeDex drive from NoHo to 207th and back in 45 minutes at 1AM ?
Not to get off topic, but a few weeks ago I found a NYC TAXICAB on the GSP around Exit 137, which is the Carteret, Rahway area.
What was a NYC Taxicab doing all the way down there? Does anyone know how a taxi driver maintains his taxi (if he isn't assigned one)?
Now what have you started here!...
I saw a NYC Taxicab (chevy caprice) here in London doing a promotional event for Goodfellas pizza (take home frozen cook yourself) the driver a guy called "Gabby cabby" even made local radio and TV.
Now that is far from home.....
(By the way the taxi never indicated a turn once and cut up several people ) JOKE!
Rob
Well, if it's a Chevy Caprice, it's definitely an EX-taxi... there is a rule (established by whoever controls the yellow medallion cabs - the Taxi and Limousine Commission?) that says that a "fleet" cab can be no more than 30 months old and an owner-operated cab can be no more than five years old. There are a few "grandfathered" vehicles still on the streets but not many. 1996 was the last year for the big Chevy - no loss, IMHO, the big Ford is a much better car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If it's an owner-driver, he might have taken it home.
Or it could be an out-of-town run, which comes out of the flat rate manual. Rahway isn't that far.
Umm, the rules say that the driver and the passenger must agree on the fare before the trip. If the driver wants to use the flat rate manual as the opening point of negotiations he's free to do so, but if he wants the fare badly enough it can be lower. (Flat rate manual price to my town is twice what a limo charges)
What is a flat rate manual price?
The Cab Driver's Guide (or whatever you call it) lists specific prices for out-of-town runs, and it is negotiable. Sometimes the cabbie will ask for double the meter, which is not as unfair as it sounds, because they can't get a fare going back.
But you can negotiate the price, and, unlike a city destination, the driver doesn't have to take you at all, for any reason.
*NO* soup for you. (sorry, couldn't resist)
What's 5 divided by 0?
0, according to my 4th grade math teacher.
There are at least 25 NYC taxi owner-operators living in Carteret. used to live there and on weekends if I was in the rush, I would stand near NYC bus stop and look and hail if the bus was runnig late.
NYC taxicabs are required by law to take you where you have to go and can charge a flat rate for long distance......what they cannot do by law is pick up an out of state passenger back on or off the meter. If I want to go Hope, New Jersey, a driver may refuse because the trip is out of his shift...return time may be excessive. You can see many off-duty cabbies comming from Newark airport with empty cars. Reverse is true...jersey cabbies bringing passengers into NYC must return to NJ empty. CI Peter
UMMM....maybe he/she had a fare to that place....
or.....maybe the driver lives in the area and owns their own cab.
Peace.
ANDEE
Well just a few hours ago I saw a NYC cab parked in a driveway in Fair Lawn, NJ. Boxed in by two other [regular] cars.
Dude probably owns his own cab.
Ok. Not that this would ever happen. But I have a question regarding the amount of cars you can link up at one time. I know the norm is usually 8-10, but what were to happen if you connected more than that say like 20. What would happen to the signaling system? Has it been done before and if so why? It just popped into my head and I was wondering.
Thanks
Anthony
It has been done before, constantly in yard moves, alot of time the towers along the route of the trains have advanced notice and do special procedures which keeps the interlocking clear for the extra train length to pass smoothly.
Here in London if a failure occurs (stalled train) then what is known as a "push out" will occur so a failed 6 or 8 car will be assisted by another 6 or 8 car from the rear.Restrictions,the head end operator controls the braking,the middle operator (front of rear unit) controls the power.Through brake control MUST be possible.
Limitations, a good train can only assist its own weight that is a 4 car can push out a 4 car, but a 3 car can not push out a 4 car etc etc
Signalling is affected due to length so the head end operator obays signals as normal, the middle operator (front or rear unit) ignores the signals (which would have returned to danger in most but not all cases)and also has to cut out his trip cock safety device to avoid striking the raised train stop
Rob
Most cars are rated for a maximum 12-car consist, longer than any current line can handle. Beyond a certain length, I expect you would begin to have problems with the MU controls.
FWIW, the LIRR runs many 12-car electric trains, nearly a fifth-of-a-mile, or four city blocks long! They've run diesels that are even longer.
There may also be power issues with very long trains. I talked to an RTD engineer when our new light rail spur opened this past April who said a four-car train would pose no problems on our system. It's when you attempt to run a five-car train that breakers start tripping.
Even with all 12 new cars delivered and our light rail fleet up to 49 cars, I still see an occasional single-car C train during afternoon peak hours. The D line has priority during peak hours; I wonder if they've added extra D trains to the schedule. I haven't seen an increase in the number of three-car trains, although they do run some three-car trains right from the get-go now when service starts up at 4:30 AM.
Three-car C trains are a common sight before and after sporting events.
I should know from the following the boards, but you RTD is where? LA?
Paul, Steve lives in the Denver area - seems to me it stands for Rapid Transit District, but I could be mistaken. We railfanned together in Denver last September 9th.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hate to tell you this, but they measure trains out here by the MILE!. Most trains through here are 112 x 50' cars or 5600', plus whatever locomotives they may use.
Timetable says trains cannot be more than three miles long, and rules say no more than nine engines.
As a practicle matter, the passing sidings are little more than a mile long, so longer trains really botch up the system.
Elias
We're talking about apples and oranges again, guys. Freight trains are not MU equipment and the same rules and properties don't apply.
There have been cases where T/O's have left the yard with more cars than they were supposed to leave with. This once happened on the 2 line. T/O left with 12 cars, and went in service at 238. All doors opened. This continued all the way to E.180, where the Dispatcher noticed the error. Now, what would've happend if someone decided to walk to the back of the train, and the doors opened with no platform?
One word comes to mind:
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS!!!!!!
Not to mention a potential lawsuit.
I've had dreams of 12-car IND trains, even thought I saw a 12-car E train leave 14th St. once. It seemed that long; I never thought I'd see the last car. I think I just started counting up from a random number.
The train should work fine. The one thing that tends to happen to a long train is that it may take a long time to charge the air brake system. Certain yards are restricted in the length of how big the train can grow. Have to remember how much space you are dealing with. As far as the signals go it shouldn't be a problem. The signal will work fine and still retain. It just goes back to the amount of space you have to deal with in the yard to make the moves you want to make.
I never forget that time I was given a move when switching at 239 yd. It started...58(track)+18(cars). That was a lot to start with! The trains breaks weren't releasing all the way (was B/O, not because of the length) and my partner wasn't afraid to move the train. He was at the headout (front) and I was at the block (rear). It was kind of like a rubberband effect when my partner took power and I wound up flying to the other end of the car.
I've done 10 car trains that ran like that double-humper. On a practical basis though, you don't want to take more than 12 cars out because there's electrical issues trainline on revenue rail. But if it'll release and roll, chances are you could do 20 cars before the trainline electric brake assist lines started giving you trouble.
1) "The train should work fine."
2) "The one thing that tends to happen to a long train is that it may take a long time to charge the air brake system."
Neither of your statements is in anyway, accurate!
First, while the TA uses a control voltage of 37.5 volts DC, most contactors are specified to operate at voltages as low as 28VDC. In reality, 30 - 32 volts is a more accurate number for reliable operation. However, because of the car length and the numbers of connections and interlocks in each car, there is an average voltage drop of .5 volts per car. Therefore there is a finite length of trains wherein reliable trainline function can be maintained.
Second, Because when a train is placed in charge, the emergency contactor makes a connection between the 3 & A wires. This enables all cars to charge at the same rate give that the train has sufficient operable air compressors. A train of 20 cars should ideally be able to charge as quickly as a train of 4 cars.
ONLY if the D4s are working properly! Old trainsets have new problems...the most common problems are car body hose leaks, compressor head failures, grounded governor shunts (no D4), leaking governor sensor pressure lines and leaking brake cylinder hoses. You got an extra legnth trainset...it seems to take forever to charge up...and you as a T/O do not know what is happening undercar. Some D4s don't build up pressure trainline because the heads leak and they blow the pressure valves set at 75 PSI (primary cylinder), you have leaking hoses or magnet valves leak/don't respond properly or J14s screw up and cars do not charge up properly. TrainDude: you busted my chops to learn the work and I have (most of it at least.) Your lesson: 'When they learn that you love the work they will try to make you do it for free'.......EEES PRAVDA KOMRADE. Coming true BUT I have a job and a new home. CI Peter
Wait....if the average voltage drop per car is 5 volts, that
would be 50 volts for a 10-car train?!
The 3-A connection charges the SAP during the initial charging
of a dry train. How does it figure in recharging after a BIE?
I thought all of the Brake Pipe air has to come from the head end,
or at least enough air to get the brake pipe to 70 pounds where
the charging valves kick in.
Jeff, for ONCE I might be helpful here - I'm VERY certain that the figure is 1/2 volt or 0.5 volts per car - things start getting a bit gamey under 27/29 volts for some of the electronics, so the math would prove out properly at 0.5 for 12 cars before hitting the ratty edge of "indecisijig."
Charging valves, you guys are on your own. :)
Jeff, I think you missed the decimal point. Perhaps I should have written it as 0.5VDC. In any event, it's roughly 1/2 volt per car length.
Dang! Even I got that one. For the bonus round and the lovely lounge suite though, what's the deal with the 3-A connection and the SAP? That's one that has me scratching parts of my anatomy that no self respecting car inspector should be watching. :)
The voltage drop in trainsets is usually attributed to the 'electric portion connections.' 'Wipe the pins off with canvas' they tell us.
Burnish the pins flat with a worn non conductive abrasive, flush with CRC Lite and wipe out with Tyveck cloth. Voltage drops in static test occur because portion shutters do not see use in connected trainsets...cleaning and degreasing fixes all but excercising door control switches which do not see use in operation...flick em a few times and the 'S wire' voltage drop collapses. CI Peter
S wire?
Odd, I could have sworn I posted a response to this message, but
now I can't find it. OK, it went something like this:
Ooops, I guess I should increase the font size to catch those
decimal points!
What about Brake Pipe charging? Am I remembering SMEE wrong?
In the full-service position, the head-end brake valve admits
feed valve air (which comes from the local reservoir, which can
also be back-fed from other cars in case the compressor is dead)
to the brake pipe through the charging port. The head-end valve
alone charges the brake pipe until BP pressure rises to a certain
point (70 lbs?), at which point the charging valves on the brake
package under each car kick in and top off the charge to 110 psi.
The charging valves have a restricting orifice so they can keep
the BP charged in the face of small leaks, but the large venting
which happens in emergency will reduce pressure much faster than
they can replenish.
Jeff, I think it goes something like this:
When the emergency contactor is down (BP=<70 PSI), the A wire is made up to the 3 wire. When the reverser is thrown, the 3-A is energized and the A magnets open in every car. This brings the BP pressure to 70 PSI almost instantaneously (if all compressors are functioning). From there the 3-A drops out as the emergency contactor picks up, requiring the head car to charge the system for the final 16 PSI to roughly 86 Lbs of brakepipe where X-over takes place.
So I get late afternoon carbody inspection cus the previous pair got scrapped. Got to measure door relay voltage upon T/O indication (pop the indication cover off so no bending down) and schmucko dumps the car...I'm freakin screaming!!!!!!! Sixteen seconds later, T/O indication comes back after pressure build up, come up with 31.5 volts on the door relay and BANG...schmucko dumps again. Point is that when the carset dumps, it resets and T/O indication returns after
BP exceeds 86 psi...or so. Very long and hot day. Hope your crews have better environment. CI Peter
See, that's the part I don't get. The A magnet valve connects
feed valve air to the Straight Air Pipe. It has no connection
with the Brake Pipe that I can see on the drawing (WABCO
"SMEE" instruction pamphlet).
"See, that's the part I don't get. The A magnet valve connects
feed valve air to the Straight Air Pipe. It has no connection
with the Brake Pipe that I can see on the drawing (WABCO
"SMEE" instruction pamphlet)."
Jeff, you are absolutely correct. There is no such connection. To charge a train, we must put 110 PSI of air into the Brakepipe and Straight-air pipe. When the emergency contactor is down, feed valve air is connected to the SAP through the application magnet valve in each car. This brings the SAP to 110 PSI within a second or two if all compressors are functioning. The brakepipe is charged through the brakevalve in the operating car. Since SAP and brakepipe require nearly equivalent volumes, if we also had to charge SAP through the operating brake valve, charging would take more than twice as long with no 3-A feed.
TD,
I finally had a chance to read my WABCO pamphlets on SMEE.
When the train is being charged or recharged after an emergency
application, all emergency valves in the operating units under
the cars are in the emergency position. The ME-42 or 43
brake valve at the head end is the lone source of brake pipe air,
at least initially. The emergency valve contains a piston which
is between brake pipe and quick action chamber. The quick
action chamber is charged to at least 25 psi by the charging valve.
When brake pipe air has built up enough to overcome the
quick action pressure, the emergency valves will slide over to
the release position. In this position, feed valve air is connected
to the brake pipe (and also to the quick action chamber) through
a constricting orifice. Thus, when not in emergency, the emergency valve helps to charge the brake pipe, and keeps it charged against small leaks. A large and rapid reduction in brake pipe pressure
causes the pressure on one side of the emergency valve piston
to reduce more quickly than the feed valve can replenish it
through the orifice. Therefore, the emergency valve moves to the
emergency position and quick-action chamber pressure opens a large blow-down vent from brake pipe to atmosphere, effecting quick-action pneumatic emergency. At the same time the quick action chamber pressure bleeds down slowly through yet another orifice (where's Monica?) This enforces a time delay before the vent valve closes
and the system can be recharged.
So, in answer to, if not the _original_ question, then one of the
questions raised earlier in this old thread, a longer train should
take slightly longer to charge up, since there is more brake pipe
volume that has to be initially charged to ~25 lbs by the lone
brake valve. After that point, the rest of the charging time should
be independent of train length, assuming all compressors etc. are
working correctly.
Very interesting. Didn't know about the voltage drop. I'm TA but not with CED but want to learn. Please forgive if this sounds stupid. When talking about taking power or electric brake, the voltage drop occurs from the operating position and then back? If operating from the front and then to the rear in other words. Would this be different if operating from the middle of the train? From the middle outward. Would this also go true with regards to door operation and indication? From the operating position to the end of train?
I agree that there is definitely a finite number with regards to reliable train lengths. I was looking at 12+ to 20 cars but now I see considering the voltage drop. You don't see it too often as you used to but a lot of moves used to grow to 20 cars. Hardly any problems unless something was B/O. It would stay that long for a short time though. Never tried the doors, of course.
I agree also with when you charge the train, all the compressors help charge if working. If not, then the ones that do work, backfeed the others. In my experiences with long trains, they all took longer to charge. Granted, I would have never known if I was a compressor or two shy. Another question then, and these are from my experiences in the yard. Why would a 4, 6, 8 car train take longer to charge than a 2 car train? When making moves, when I was left with 2 cars, they would charge so fast. Maybe 3-4 seconds compared to a longer train, say 8-12 seconds. This has happened all the time so one would have to figure that on at least some of the occasions when I had a 4, 6 or 8 car train that all the compressors were working. Does it have to deal with air travel in the pipes and how far? Perhaps when dealing with more than 1 unit, does some equalization take place that takes longer?
Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks for your previous information.
Another question towards the voltage drop. I believe you are talking about a voltage drop when going from portion to portion. There shouldn't be a voltage drop if we are dealing with a 4 car linked unit between these 4 cars should there? In other words within just that one unit. Just from going from one unit/portion to another? Thanks.
The "voltage drop" is the resistance of the wires (plus load of electricals in each car as a parallel load on those wires). The pins on the portions SHOULD have "zero resistance" if properly burnished (if not, that'll add to the drop from car to car or portion connection to portion connection) ... but each length of wire will have a voltage drop owing to its series resistance based on the amount of current lost in the wires as heat or load. The 0.5 is therefore an estimated "rule of thumb" - your train may vary.
I'm sure Dude can elaborate on this when he runs across the thread, but the "wire drop" is something that model railroaders also see, which is why many will run wire in addition to the current through the model rails (also wire) to compensate for the voltage drop across some distance on their model layouts. Hope this helps to explain a bit.
Good post, thanks. I am awful when it comes to electricity. I fell between two 3rd rails once, still here. That was a good example with the model trains. I had done that myself with my old layout. My train would die in the far away spots. Fixed that problem. Thanks again for your help.
Falling between third rails is something I've never done and don't plan on doing. Glad to hear you were a lousy conductor for once. :)
Yeah, dying trains on a model layout after a few track sections is pretty much the same thing. A little corrosion of the track, loose fitting pins and the further you go away from where the power is attached to the model tracks, same deal as the portions on subway cars. Eventually, so many loose contacts and loads add up and you get nothing as the voltage drop increases with "series resistance" away from the load.
The old BMT suffered the same problems - too few substations, too much third rail loss between them. Eventually all that series resistance adds up. Solution's the same deal - more "sections" and more wires just to those sections. Helps quite a bit. Glad EE 101 was of some help there.
And fer krissakes, check your employee manual. As much as you should be grateful that your train moves from time to time, there's no requirement to kiss the third rail. Kissing other things is optional and dependent on disciplinary whim. :)
Trust me, it was an accident. A stupid accident. I tripped on something. It was dark and I should have taken my time. I would not have been where I was had it not been for something else that had happened.
I was in the A div. but had now come over to the B div. I forgot what job I had but I wound up in East New York yard that night. I had just finished my break-in. At ENYD, if you are a probie, they won't let you work. They let me work and I might have well been the same thing. I had put in 3 1/2 years in the A. After I was given the riot act by the yard disp. (as I would find myself doing years later), I was given a move. Worked with a senior man and so he let me know how we were going to make it. The result of our move was to make a 8 car train and L/U on the deck. We had gotten 4 cars and left them on the ladder adjacent to the barn. We then went in and pulled out 4 cars from the barn. My partner pulled out from the barn and told me to get back on the other 4 cars that we left and make an add to his 4 on the hill (track going uphill from the barn to the deck.) I got on my 4 and proceeded when I was lined up. Made my safety stops approaching my partner who was stopped on the hill. Well, I came to a foot left before I was going to make my add. Checked everything and was ready. I took a point and nothing. Nada. Assumed this because I was going uphill. So....I took a second point. WHAM!!!!!!!!!! The train shot like someone bit it in the *ss. My partner comes over the radio, "Did you make the add?" and I replied, "YYYYYYeahhhh, I I I I maddde the adddd." Yes, I made it alright, I thought I might have knocked his teeth out with that hit. So he charged up, the portions shot and everything seemed to be in working order and we finished the move. I had went back down the side of the train to check to see if I had done some damage. That is when I almost did permanent damage to myself. My keys were on the protection board. I couldn't go down the other side of the train because of some obtructions. There was no damage to the train but it sure seemed otherwise when the hit was made. I also didn't really care at this point because of what happened to me. What a night! I learned a lesson.
Wowsers ... yeah, that'd give me a dose of the shakes for a good long time. Cuts and adds on Arnines were a story of their own, but no hair raisers. My final act as a motorman was an unintended add. :)
With an incompatible R-32 to boot, right?
Nope, no 32's were harmed. I simply made a 20 car D train the hard way and knocked an axle on the ground, broke a little glass and bent a little floor metal. :)
Of course, had you bumped a BMT standard, it could have been a lot worse.:)
That morning I wish it was a 42. Would have been a nice soft landing. Nothing like beer cans on wheels to cushion a steel car. Hitting another Arnine though was definitely a headache generator. :)
Yay!!! Well done, Kevin!!!
You Brits are so easily amused. :)
Yeah, I've seen my S gauge track become red hot at a bad joint. Yikes! That voltage drop will take a loco with R-10 speed and make it look like a Q car on Myrtle Ave, even with a ZW transformer.
Heh. Now imagine what can happen with real subway cars. Voltage drop is meaningful. :)
That's especially true of model RRs. I am currently upgrading the feeds to each of my track blocks from 20 gauge to 16 gauge wire.
On subway cars, there's far more to it than just the resistance in the 75 foot run of wire. Take the #21 (motorman's indication) wire. It passes through:
The 21 finger of the signal light relay.
A set of contacts on each master door control.
A set of contacts on the emergency contactor.
A set of terminals in the junction box at each end of the car.
Either a pin in the electric portion or a pin in the Litton-Veam connector depending on whether it's an end or middle.
On end cars (either end)the shutter switch and contacts in the master controller.
Each of these items adds just a little to the resistance of the 21 wire. Obviously every trainline wire, by necessity has at least 2 connections at each end of the car. The connection in the junction box and the connection at the electric portion or link bar. Hope this helps to clarify.
Absolutely ... I was trying to explain from a point many have seen personally. From an electronics background myself, you should see what happens to transmitters on mountaintops that like 50,000 volts at 600 amps. 0000 busbar is pretty lossy over a couple of feet. :)
It all adds up. The FIRST time you mentioned the "0.5V" I was sitting there wondering if diodes were involved. Then I remembered the contactors and such, bunch of leaf switches and snapswitches and it all came home like the kiss at the end of a hot wet fist. So many possibilities of resistive changes owing to corrosion, gunk and it's a miracle things run at all. Then again, with all this "new tech" it'll likely be more like an old fashioned tube multimeter with an 11 megohm input impedance that won't present doowahdiddy for a series load and soon you'll be able to hook up every car in the system and go. Heh.
It works both ways. Motorman's indication starts in the last car and works to the front of the train. One common problem is:
If the rear car is on the rail, the 21 wire (t/o indication) is 37.5 VDC in the last car and in an 8-car train, it drops roughly 4 volts to 33.5VDC at the lead car. This still leaves pleanty of voltage to pull it the master door relay so the train can take power. Now what if the rear car is sitting on a 3rd rail gap? If the batteries are good, then the t/o indication - 21 wire will still be around 32 VDC. Now if the batteries are weak, say 33 volts, then you have roughly 29 VDC at the door relay and it may not pull in - hence a train that will not take power.
In Conductor's indication, the 27 or D-6 wire is fed from both ends of the train to the middle, hence for our 8 car train, the voltage drop to the middle from either end may be just 2 VDC.
And that is why carbodymen must measure CB24 voltage at #1 and #2 ends, voltage of conductors indication, voltage of door relay from T/Os indication and voltage drop of S2 wire S2/D8A. All of the switches are excercised in the trainset EXCEPT the lockout switches in the door motor mechanism controllers. The voltage drops add up trainline wise. BTW: electric portion pins and portion shutter drum switch contributes to high S-wire voltage drop. Did hundreds of electric portion clean-ups. Unca Steve: time for you to beat upon me to learn something new. One of the crew sent down to Jay Street for excessive lateness comes back with a smile on his face. Times have changed! CI Peter
By rule, the maximum length train over the road is 12 cars. This
would usually be encountered during a transfer move from
one yard to another. In the case of a rescue train, obviously
2 train length's worth will be coupled up, although the electric
portions are almost always isolated. The brake and control systems
were designed with a 12 car limit in mind.
Let's not forget the T/O that brought 20 cars from 137 yard all the way up to 242.
Just recently, a 12 car 7 train made it to TS.............
Does anyone know if there is list of the various support vehicles in use for the Subway & Bus depts?
Now that is a damn good question... I've always wondered what the various types of utility trucks they have do...
They have brand new Chevy Suburbans and about 20+ other model trucks and cars from what I've seen.
They have recently aquired a bunch of those Toyota Primus hybrid contraptions.
Peace,
ANDEE
they bought those goddamned motorcycles sometime ago.
Here are the latest Deadbirds at 207 St Yard:
Photos taken by me today, 8/11/02
Gee, salaamallah's gotta be crying. More of his favourite 'birds going to swim with the fishes.
I'm crying too! I just don't laugh about it...... :)
More rotboids to come...not enough Bondo upon the Lords Earth to glue em all back together for RTO duty. CI Peter
I have faith in you! Keep glueing! Pleeeeeeeaaaaase!
Aaaahhhh 'Propulsky...elixer of Life.' Half window cleaner and half denatured alcohol...cleans out group boxes and motor comutators/brushes with the fresh smell of ammonia leaving no alcohol for your supervisor to balk about to blow up during a power test. Bondo....the resin kills your olefactory nerves. So the guyz cover up the holes and gashes with duct tape, then spray with red paint. The concern is with structural integrity now.....a one foot gash in carbody means one less foot of attachment. Bondo is not glue and fish do not like to eat it. These gashes interfere with door movement...cause trainsets to TT.
Who cares what the fish like. I never wanted the MTA to reef them anyway. I share Salaamallah's pain right now. FUCK the MTA! FUCK the DOT! They can all go to hell.
It's your opinion BUT passenger safety takes presedence. Cars with excessive body rust not only have doors jam but there is a question of structural integrity that MUST be adressed. CI Peter
Fine, so weed out the ones with severely rusted carbodies and refurbish the rest. I see plenty of R-33's and 36's on the "7" with alot of life left in them. They just need a little TLC. I consider the Kawasucki R-62A's a poor subsitute, at best.
A. There are very few, if any, "Redbird" carbodies that would be worth overhauling a second time (they've all been done once). The view a passenger gets of a subway car is not the view the people in the shops get.
B. The R-62As were built by Bombardier, not KawasAki (let's get the name right). Whatever one may think of them from a "railfan" point of view, the fact is they are among the most reliable cars NYCT (or its predecessors) has ever purchased (176,037 miles MDBF in April, 198,994 in March).
David
There you go again...making sense. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Are there any plans to preserve at least on set of R-36WF. It would be nice to see a set restored minus A/C, and in their original WF paint scheme.
Now that's an idea!
I was given the job to clear files of 'extinct married pairs.' The list was 243 sets...some records were already pulled, some records may be missing, some were 'in transit,' some are 'held,' one pair was 'Smithstonian,' the rest 'Deleware.' TA is not going to save pairs, especialy sans AC...the few will be preserved by dedicated buffs. Just to let yu guys know, the records are the last inspection reports signed off by my Deputy Superintendent...they include the car numbers, the inspection team, wheel gauge measurements and maybe a note or two of major problems. There are four cars of interest to me that I will truly miss as a communications professional and ham radio operator: 8873, 8874, 8875 and 8877. When I was really sad about something, picking up one of these cars for inspection or 'troubles' made my day. 8873, 8874, 8875 and 8877 were Eimac zero bias ceramic metal triodes designed for use in ground grid operation forAB1/AB2/CW service. TA really has engineers doing oil and brakes.
73's and 88's to all. CI peter, WB2SGT HF FOREVER!!!!!!
Well GEEZ, dewd ... hang some catenary, rig it up to the biggie bug, throw some top caps on them cars and go WEEEeeeeeee down track 67! :)
May they rest in piece.:( Did they scrap my favorite 8878 yet? I can't believe some 8900's 9000's are going!
no
i am mourning ....no redbirds this middle setember ???
this is hell at its worse !!..........................( sigh ) ..!
>>>>>>>>>>BRING BACK THE LOW'V'S...!!!
Wait a second......#5 line will probably be running Redbirds beyond the middle of September IF experience with Bombardier remains a point of measure...NewTech deliveries will not meet expectations. Today, one of my PM crew guys related how happy he was to go home on the Redbird: fast and without delay. CI Peter
oh goodie !! yea !! my birds will B there 4 video ...!!!
hooooooooorrrraaaayyyyyy!!
You speak da truth! From your mouth to heaven, and it shall be.
Yes, well as the original St. Louis Car Co. ad advertised them - "On Time, All The Time". More than can be said about BOMBardier or Kawasucki! lol
And to think ... once upon a time we called them St Louis CRAP company. My how things have changed. :)
I thought they did an excellent job with the redbirds as well as the N.J. Transit PCC cars. How could they say that?
Dunno, but they did ... I'm sure others here will chide in the the "proff" ... don't mind me though, I thought ACF and Pullman made great Arnines. :)
Guess everything runs in cycles. Years ago, my father thought the Flx NewLook was a piece of junk. We now own a '78. How things change....
Wowsers ... I don't know many folks that keep a BUS in the family garage. :)
We were so happy to acquire it. It's only a 30-footer. Wish we had garage space. I hate to leave it outdoors.
Still pretty neat if you can keep a bus and the neighbors ain't bearing torches at the front door. Heh. Maybe there's hope for an R9 up on blocks here at my place. :)
If you know where I can buy an R9, please let me know. Actually, I'd love to keep a Low-V in my driveway. That'd create a stir lol
If an R9 was available, you think I'd pass it along? :)
Well, if there were a few available, I would hope you might share the wealth :o) I understand Naporano scrap yard still has a few Q-Cars, but they're in deplorable condition....
I know where they've been. No thanks. Even I'm not THAT nuts. :)
Do you know offhand, how long they have been sitting there? Must be 30 years at least. Not too much left of them now. Too bad they couldn't have done the same with a few Low-V's or BMT Standards.
I honestly have no idea. Probably some of the other folks here might know how long the pump/hose car Q's rotted away in the SBK yard. And BITE your tongue that LoV's or R9's should have been left out there like that to rot away or spend the end of their careers sitting in standing water. :)
But as much as I'd love to have my own personal R9 or LoV up on see-ment blocks on my front lawn, I'd MUCH rather see them RUN somewhere, and be lovingly maintained. Those Q's didn't get either in their final days.
Excuse me....as I drive into a rubber stanchion.
Peace,
ANDEE
Of course, these Low-V's and Standards should be stored in a museum, but wouldn't you agree, it would have been better if they were left in some scrap yard than be cut up for scrap metal the way they were? At least if they were left to deteriorate perhaps years later someone would have taken an interest in refurbishing them. I can't believe they cut whole carbodies in half. What a waste!
A few of each DID escape the torch. A handful of them are living happy lives, still turning their wheels in revenue service OFF the TA property. Even better, there's some ON TA property that could live again some day. But yeah, I wince every time I look at the pictures of them cut up like that. But then again, we live in a throw away world.
True, but this was something they did in the '60's. Don't tell me they're still doing that to the few remaining cars. That WOULD be a sin.
Nope, still alive and well - Railway Preservation Corp, sitting down at Coney I believe. But those Q's that Naporano got ... well, wasn't really anything left to restore there. Might have been a different story if they'd been put in stasis a couple decades ago. But they were left to rot.
Yeah, a nice train on a nice, long, straight stretch of track, bull and pinion gears howling away.....
St. Louis Car made the R-44, a lemon for many years for NYC Transit, and the Highliners for Chicago commuter service, which were found to be uncrashworthy.
David
no more railfan window ......
Are you kidding? After the doors and the glass come out before they go for a dunk, the railfan window is the size of the previous whole DOOR! MUCH bigger fanwindow. And all you need is some scuba gear for the ride. :)
Maybe when we have an economy again, we can come up with a federal contract to GOH all the newer cars, install webcams on the nose and charge web surfers for access to the camera up front. Then from the convenience of their seat, they can watch the ride and keep recording their fantrip until the disk is full. There's always hope. :)
I'd pay for that. Sign me up! But it has to be high quality video.
--Brian
If we ever have an "economy" again and get all that "bandwidth" they've been dangling in our faces for years, it's CERTAINLY possible to do that. Here's the technicals - "broadcast quality NTSC video" ("studio" quality) is 43 megabits when converted to digital, UNcompressed. In fact "DS3 lines" were created (44mbit) by the telcos SPECIFICALLY for network television "backhauls" ... with compression technology bringing that quality down to 4 megabits (2 channels worth in "road runner" rate if only road runner did what it was SPEC'D for rather than it being "party lined" the way it is with that humongo bandwidth split among users, we'd BE there as far as the ability to transmit the images goes.
Anyone who has bought a "digital camera" with more than a million pixels will attest to how good their JPG's can be. "Digital cameras" use the same CCD chip technology that broadcast television cameras use and many have optics of comparable quality as well. So there you have the camera, the potential for transmitting it - only things missing are the transmitters and receivers, the transmission line to distribute it and of course the electronics on the nose of the train.
I wouldn't expect straphangers or the transit authority to pay for it, but it certainly COULD be done. Only question is who would, and could they make enough money at it to make it worth the TA's while to install it and run a squeegie over it every now and then. :)
Potentially, wireless voice and data carriers can install signal repeaters "antennas" in the subway tunnels, the way Verizon wireless did in the east river LIRR tunnels. If this service is "third-generation" wireless, then data transmission speeds can reach up to 300mbps, which is sufficient for NTSC broadcasts. If this is installed, a regular consumer digital video camera hooked on a tripod hooked up to a computer with a "third-genration" wireless internet or intranet (like Apple Airport IEEE 802.11b) can simultaneously record, process and transmit a high-quality video stream. It is physically, if not economically, feasable.
-Dan
www,nyrail.org
SOME DAY, some loose wingnut with serious bucks is going to do it. Wish I was the loose wingnut. Heh. But a good widescreen across the top of the transverse cab bulkhead would keep many a foamer from whining about the lack of a railfan window. :)
now,now....dont get your hopes up...in this day and age,ANYBODY walkin' around with a camcorder is potential threat to national security...so much as we would LOVE for that to happen... uuhhhh,... nope.
now,now....dont get your hopes up...in this day and age,ANYBODY walkin' around with a camcorder is potential threat to national security...so much as we would LOVE for that to happen... uuhhhh,... nope.[preceived threat,i should say]
i am not into swimming, did some strokes in my young dayz.....
i am glad 2 see 9411 is still there ( note my photo at willets pt.)
saw another photo of her on the newest images god bless her soul..
Well, hopefully in a few years once the paranoia about scuba divers subsides a bit, I'm going to go back and finish the course just so someone can take a picture of me in the cab of one of the 'dearly departed' ... that'd be a hoot. Life in an R9 cab was tight enough, they couldn't PAY me enough to sit in redbirds all day. Plus I must admit, I'm not as tiny as I was THEN either. :)
like me U need 2 walk around da' block ....hell i need to loose
a ton of weight and then you will fit inside a motormans cab nice !!
lol !!! how would you like to have 2 do OPTO ...???
get up walk from one side of the cab 2 the other looking down the whole length of the train to the far end of it . !!
( just curious )
I've always believed in two person operation on safety alone, but getting up doesn't bother me. You're talking to someone who was once a conductor on the R9's. OUTSIDE work. Heh. Plenty of climbing, fidgetting and fumbling ... doing it INSIDE would have been a treat. But you still need a partner to watch your back (or these days, to turn your arse IN) ... hmmm ... maybe OPTO isn't all that bad after all. Heh.
to me it seems 2 much 2 put on one person plus the whole huge responsibility of it. maybe this is ok with some lignt rail ?? pcc..
oh well thankz for da' feedback !!
he he .............lol !!
I'd agree completely ... however, busses don't have a conductor for what little that circular logic is worth, and you can only see so far. It's my understanding that OPTO is ONLY possible on short trains and won't be coming to the 10 car marker anytime soon. I know I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it, but then again on lines that have next to no traffic and no worries about keeping a schedule (read that as the G line) then I s'pose they can do it. TWU shouldn't have bargained it away though.
be careful if you do ride in the last car.........
Heh. It'd only mean that I was relaying and would get off once it platformed. And as to anyone messing with me, well beware of the brake handle I always said. :)
Paranoia? You must have been watching Celebrity Shark Week on the Discovery Channel. Bring be up some Lobs!
Heh. I worked for the STATE. I'm used to sharks, and they're afraid of me. Sure thing. Want some crabs with that? :)
Lobs & Crabs here, please Kev...
Here ya go ... A100 Pyrinate sold separately, void where prohibited by law. :)
I wonder if somewhere down the road, there'll be actual "tours of da rustboids" in scuba gear and group photos of folks in the cab.
I wonder if somewhere down the road, there'll be actual "tours of da rustboids" in scuba gear and group photos of folks in the cab.
I'm sure there will... and it won't take much guessing to figure out which West Coast SubTalker will be hogging the railfan window :o>
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Already taunted him ... he's got some kind of "thing" about swimming, so I suspect we'll still be able to get a view out front. But if he does come along, I'll bless the cab. :)
Many of the "Deadbirds" that are in the photos are R-29s. I do see some 9000 series R-33s in the photos. It is hard to believe that these once "Old Faithful" cars are now disappearing from the IRT division.
#3 West End Jeff
Yeah, we said that about the Arnines, the standards, the B's, C's, Q's and the LoV's ... I guess I'd be more sympathetic about da boids if it weren't for this being the way. Equipment *DOES* get "used up" and DANGEROUS to operate or ride - from what I saw of da boids, they were in WORSE shape than the junk *I* ran. And I don't say this to irritate, merely that "time trudges on" ... and takes a HELL of a toll on stuff that's rotted out.
Enjoy the last of them, soon they'll be gone ... just like other classic cars that "moved millions" ... and so it goes. Hug one while you still can. :)
You can bet I will try to ride on as many Redbirds as I can two months hence.
You'd BEST ... that looks to be the totality of their lifespan. One day, there were LoV's and Steinways and flivvers. Next day, NONE ... get your yayas while you can ... this is a limited time arf'er ...
I was saying that last year, and the year before that. Now that they're being sunk, it's for real. This may be the last time I get to ride on them.
I hope to ride at least one more "Redbird" before they are all gone.
#3 West End Jeff
Redbirds in photos:
8734/35,8738/39,8752/53,8756/57,8974/75,9024/25,9036/37
Thanks to Wil7086048@aol.com for writing them all down.
From this perspective, the Redbirds don't look half bad! Too bad they're going away. What model are those and which line did it mostly come from?
What is this feller doing here? I was hoping it was an R-110B, but alas, it wasn't meant to be. Anyone know what car number that is? Photo taken by me, today, 8/11/02.
8220 (you can read it in the pic)
yeah i think that's what it is but I wanted a second opinion...
They delivered via 207 Street Yard. That's how the first one got there.
So you're saying that's how this one got there also?
--Brian
Probably.
I just went by there on Thursday and didn't see it. Must've just been delivered.
what are ya blind? it may not be clear but you can easily tell it says 8220
Nice shot, looks like the R-143 is rolling in the 8200 series now.
I rode the 5 up to Dyre Av today and saw an R-142 train being tested. This train may include car# 7026, which I saw at E180 St and I will post a photo of in a sec. This train was on the nb track up past the station. Photo taken by me, today, 8/11/02
Some group should organize an all day fan trip using these new cars!
I'm in the process of watching THE TAKING OF PELHAM 123 for the first time in over 3 years. I had forgotten what a GREAT movie this is.
Peace,
ANDEE
...one of the most ironic things about this movie is, IMO, the choice of actor for the mayor. Who looked remarkable like Koch, even though Beame was the mayor at the time. Verry Phrophetic.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, that's right.
The first time I saw the movie, Koch was the mayor. And I noticed the same thing. In fact, they used the same actor to play the mayor of Gotham City in the 1989 movie BATMAN. Back in 1989, Koch was still the mayor of NYC. I wonder if they did cast that actor for that reason, since Gotham kind of represents NY.
It is a great movie. It has a very authentic feel to it, despite their taking some liberties with subway operations. A very classy, enjoyable movie.
I've always wondered exactly what was accomplished in that jury-rigging in the original when the hijackers make their getaway. It doesn't come even close to the description in the novel. The remake, as bad as it is, features a much more accurate portrayal. Perhaps the TA didn't like the idea of having a cab window busted out on a car in active revenue service. OTOH the Toronto cars in the remake were about to be scrapped anyway, so the TTC didn't object to having a window busted out there.
A remake on the Toronto subway...I wasn't aware they had made one.
The original, made in 1972, had some very good writing, generally, (OK, I read the book too and you have a point) and great acting. Joseph Sargent was an excellent director.
You're really making me hope the DVD arrives tomorrow! I really can't wait - it sounds a great movie!
The enclosed notes with the DVD mention that Martin Balsam enjoyed playing a villain for once, having always been cast as a good guy in previous films.
If you're a Jerry Stiller fan, he plays Walter Matthau's sidekick, Rico Patrone, and does a god job. Although it's a straightforward role, Stiller manages to inject some humor. Matthau himself hadn't been on the subway in years at the time the movie was made, even though he was born and raised in NYC.
And if you're a Home Improvement fan, Mr. Brown is played by none other than Wilson Wilson himself, Earl Hindman.
Doris Roberts has a small role as the Mayor's wife.
Julius Harris is very good as DCI Daniels.
The best thing about the movie, IMO, is that it would still be a good pic, even if the subway aspect were removed.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's true, you don't have to like trains to like the movie.
Was it made that early? It was released in the fall of 1974, so I figured it to be shot in late 1973 or early 1974
You're correct, it was released in 1974.
Peace,
ANDEE
I picked up the book at Strand Books about ten years ago, and boy was I disappointed. This is one of the few cases where the film is definitely at least one cut above the book, IMO.
I don't recall the detail about how they defeated the deadman feature in the book -- I'll have to check that out again.
Mvh Tim
In the novel, a heavy iron mold, cast in the shape of the controller, was placed over the controller handle. There were also three lengths of pipe, arranged in an S or Z shape, to move the controller handle from the outside of the car. One length was short, with one end attached tightly to the iron mold. The second and third lengths angled downwards and toward the outside of the car. The arrangement was such that the controller would be rotated through switching into series, then by pulling back on the pipes, the first and second pipe lengths would separate. The front cab window had to be broken out in order to join the first and second pipe lengths together. The Pelham remake does have a scene in which the cab window is busted out.
The rigging in the 1972 flick was done under the cab which in some way had easier access to the "deadman's" safety feature. It deactivated the "feature", allowing the throttle to recieve current for the train to move with no hand on it. The suckier remake used Toronto subway cars which if I'm not mistaken, uses Cineston dual-mode controllers. The "glove" apparatus in the remake would work on Cineston controllers. But you have to admit, that escape was almost "fail safe". Damn that motorman for catching cold.
Ummm ... just for anal-retentive (yes, it DOES have a hyphen) there is NOTHING "undercar" that will "release the brakes" or "deactivate the tripper" ... still a great movie, but that is NOT how it could be done. And given our "watch out for them pesky scuba divers," I will *NOT tell anyone how it COULD have been done. But for anyone who's ever opened a storm door with LEGAL keys ... heh. I'll leave it there.
I hear ya. What's your opinion on the "remade" version? Donnie Wahlberg lacked what Hector Elizondo had: class for the part.
The remake is not worth watching, IMHO. The acting is wooden, with everyone more or less going through the motions.
Speaking of Hector Elizondo, I can't help but visualize him as badass My. Gray whenever I see him in movies or TV. He was also featured on a subway ad poster in the city a year or two ago. Claims he's been a subway rider all his life.
Have you read the novel? The method described there seems quite feasible.
"Do they still exceute in theis state any more." no. "pitty" (foot to third rail) man did that guy smoke.
Yeah. Electricity still flowed through that rubber no transit issued boot!
I'm curious as to where I can get that movie from? I checked video stores and found nothing! Maybe I wasn't trying hard enough in my search. I've seen it on channel five with commericals. Ugh! I've seen it three times when I was only seven or so years old. I would like to get a copy. At that time, I didn't know what an R-17 was.:)
your best guess is checking online like e bay or something. and keep checking the stores
E-Mail, Mark W at:
MarkNYC618@aol.com
He may still have a few copies left.
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks guys!
It's available on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0792843649/qid=1029242496/sr=2-1/104-0901751-2263124
(only 4 left in stock last time I checked)
and
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063BMF/qid%3D1029242405/202-8232993-0570213
(you'll need a DVD player capable of reading "region 2" DVDs for this one)
Thanks for the address! I've just ordered my copy. Yay! Commerical free! Now all I need is a DVD Player.:)
Now all I need is a DVD Player.:)
You mean you haven't got one already? Get a multi-region one if you can - that way you can get around the film industries corrupt pricing differentials (more of a problem this side of the Atlantic, I know, but nevertheless a big problem).
Speaking of R-17s, the last car of the first train visible in the movie is R-17 6762. Thanks to the excellent freeze-frame capability of DVD, I was able to identify its car number. Someone once thought it may have been 6609, which appeared in The French Connection and is now at the Transit Museum.
Isn't having DVD wonderful. I also recommend purchasing "The Warriors" on DVD. Graffiti-covered R30/27 trains are picture-perfect on DVD. Go to www.cdnow.com for purchasing. Real cheap, good quality.
Have that one, too. By freeze-framing, you can see some of the many different train markings such as "QB-City Hall" on the front of one train as it pulls into an elevated station.
Pelham 123-The original is available on DVD at www.cdnow.com at a very reasonable price.
Tower Records/Video may have it, too. That's where I picked mine up. (Yes, we have a Tower Records in Denver.)
This movie had me keeping an eye on people in trenchcoats for weeks! lol
This movie was rereleased in 2001 on dvd.Amazon has it in stock.
That was the first DVD I bought. It was also the first VHS movie I bought back in 1987. See a pattern here?:)
An R-142 train pulled into E180 St on the sb local track, stopped, then pulled out north. It was not signed as anything. I assume it was being tested. Here is a photo of the lead sb car, #7026. Photo taken by me, today, 8/11/02.
Here are the Redbirds in the yard to the west of the E180 St station. The right-most lead car is signed as going to "South Ferry." Photos taken by me, today, 8/11/02.
The cars on the far left are "Office" R-26s 7848/7849.
They've been sitting there since March.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Fon't you meen School Cars.
Robert
Just when I thought 7848-49 were headed somewhere, they're remaining at the East.... Well, it's nice to see someone is still utilizing these old timers!!!
-Stef
I was there yesterday (Sunday) and photographed that lineup too. Also, I was on the Dyre Ave Line and saw the R-142's laid up north of the station. I was there about 4PM or so.
Bill "Newkirk"
I took my photo of the R-142's laid up at 2:52pm. So I guess they didn't go anywhere.
>>I took my photo of the R-142's laid up at 2:52pm. So I guess they didn't go anywhere.<<
When leaving the Dyre Line, my train was approaching Pelham Parkway and lo and behold, a train of R-142's on the test track heading north.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hello Redbirds. Hey, I'll be in the city two months from today. Gotta start practicing....
Here is a 5 Redbird train at E180 St which was signed backwards. Photos taken by me, today, 8/11/02.
I don't see what is backwards about it. Can you explain?
Great pics!
Probably the south destination (Bowling Green) was on the north end of the train, and the north destination (Dyre Avenue) was on the south end. Since Bowling Green's a loop terminal, a trainset switches ends every time it goes past Bowling Green to turn around; perhaps someone didn't change the end signs.
David
Yeah, you explained it pretty well. Thanks. :)
I had guessed that but wasn't sure.
Sounds convincing - it's not that clear in the photos, but I think I can see the old NYW&B structure on the left of the first photo and the right of the second, which would suggest that you're totally right.
He's right! He's right! Trust me. I took the photo like 4 hours ago! :)
I dunno why it matters...
The 7 has problems like this all the time!
....and there's no excuse for it on the 7, since neither terminus is a loop.
Bingo. This used to happen VERY often on the 6 when the redbirds ruled that line, since the trains "turn around" by going through the City Hall loop. The front end of a southbound 6 then becomes the front end for the northbound trip. I used to see lots of northbound 6 trains with Brooklyn Bridge signs on the front.
I'll bet there used to be a lot of 1 trains with "South Ferry" on the north motor.
As a matter of fact, before the R62/62As, practically all NORTHBOUND "1", "5" (Bowling Green terminus only) and "6" trains had the northern terminal on the last car because of the loops they utilized at their southern terminals.
Thanks! I took about 150 photos today. And boy is my index finger tired.
good ""redbird mug shot"".....lol !!
This happens all the time on the 7. Flushing-bound trains often pull into Grand Central bearing the "Times Square" destination sign instead of "Main Street." Not a big deal.
It is strange, yes but I would not at all be surprised to see something like that on the "7". They have trains marked "express" when they are really local, and vice versa. These redbirds are on their way out, and quite frankly, I think most T/O's don't really much care anymore. Most of them are happy to see them go.
You have to take those "Exp" and "Local" signs with a grain of salt. I still remember the first time I saw a D train of R-32s in December of 1967. Its front "Local" sign was lit as it pulled into 34th St. even though it ran express along CPW. I also once saw a n/b prewar AA train at 59th St. whose south motor had its "Exp" sign lit.
Can't recall if I ever saw an A train whose R-10 lead motor had the "Local" sign lit.
Oh no, I do but I'm just saying. Things seem so random on the "7", I truly believe they flip a coin at the tower to decide which train is local and which one is express. My wish is that they'd once again illuminate the LOCAL and EXPRESS indicators, but I know that will never happen. Speaking of which, do you know when those indicators were removed from the R-40 slants?
AFAIK it was during GOH. The R-32s and R-38s lost their signs as well during GOH.
There was a work crew and work train on the nb local track just south of E180 St. Here is a photo of car RD338. Photo taken by me, from a passing sb 2 train, today, 8/11/02.
This is former R-15 6214, converted to work car RD338, as stated here: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r15.html
Wonder if the owner would give you permission to show in the above link ??????????
What are you asking?
I think he wants to know if you'd let me add your photo of RD338 to the roster.
Yes, definitly! Also, I plan on creating my own website this fall with all of my photos. After I do that, my photos will be named and organized, so I'll submit the good ones to you for inclusion on this site, if you want them.
I would like to see a redbird with the R15 side-doors while during a fan trip. I think those circle-windowed side doors are the rage.
Well most of them are Yellowbirds now. But yeah, they seem to be cool.
We all know about the G.O. that has 1 trains terminating at 215 St on weekends. I went up there to see what was going on and I took this photo of a side rollsign on an R-62A. I guess Dyckman St is as close as the rollsigns go.
I don't think the rollsigns have every single station on any model train. I suspect only obvious terminals are included. I could be wrong, though.
I saw a freight railroad right next to the station in Bound Brook, on the old Jersey Central line, and it looks like a good spot for some rail photography. How can a shutterbug like me find out when the trains come through,and in which direction? What is good protocol to follow from a location like that so that the police will not get the wrong idea about taking pictures - like what happened in Philadelphia about a month or two ago. I am only interested in taking pictures of trains as a hobby, nothing else. Also, why does the line end at Raritan station on the weekends, with only a few trains going to High Bridge on weekdays? Is the line past Raritan single track and mostly rural? I saw on a map of the area around High Bridge station that another frieght line comes in close there - what is the deal with that line? I only want to operate within the law, so please advise.
The line to High Bridge has been double tracked all the way to High Bridge. The lack of service is due to lack of demand. The "freight line" that connects at HB was an old CNJ line to a quarrying district of NJ and possibly Dover. Nothing more than a local freight branch. I believe is has been long since abandonned.
The line to High Bridge is not double track all the way to High Bridge. After Brad interlocking, which is just west of Raritan Yard, it is a single track all the way to Clinton interlocking. Between Clinton and Arch interlocking, there is a "controlled siding" next to the main track. In the evenings, many eatbound "X" trains sit on that siding to wait for the next westbound to pass through. Because of the single track situation, they have to wait for the westbound train to pass before they proceed east back to Raritan Yard.
I believe that many, many years ago, there was double track all the way to High Bridge. Not in recent years, though.
My bad, I thought they just re-did it.
No problem. I get to see it 5 days a week on train #5713 and the "X" train going back down.
Thanks for the information, but what about Bound Brook Station?
Would any photography done at that location involke the ire of the local constabulatory - or to put it more bluntly, get the cops ticked off? Are there some more photo friendly places that I should check out?
You should be safe photographing at Bound Brook station. I've never seen any cops there, I've been working that line regularly since April of 2000.
A good spot for full-length train passenger train shots would be a little bit west of Bridgewater station. After getting off at Bridgewater, go to the other side of the stadium by the road that borders the shopping center. Then walk west, paralell to the tracks. Just past there, you get an unobstructed view of the railroad. Of course, it all depends on which way the sun is shining.
I think when the TA orders the R-160s, they need to make a change. The wheelchairs seats that pull down need to be spring loaded in the up direction. Everytime I'm reading my paper on the train, someone gets up and BANG! I have a heart attack. Those seats are VERY loud as they go up. Most people aren't smart enough to hold the seat and lift it slowly, as I do. Maybe a sign above the seats would help, but I doubt it.
Yeah, there needs to be a sign in about 5 or 6 different languages. I hate when people slam those seats. Especially when someone does it at Stop A, and then at Stop A+1, the person across the aisle does the same thing! Didn't they hear the person one stop before????
I happen to like the BANG.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah. If you're expecting it. If you have your mug burried in a paper like I do, then it's less pleasant. It's also less pleasant for every other rider if my face ISN'T buried in a paper. ;)
More people should bang on subway trains ;-)
I get a bang out of that R-10 sound bit.:)
Yes, and they should be as open about it as possible.
I guess you prefer a BIG BANG! ;-)
THAT'S just about enough out of you...8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Ah but the handicapped will complain, since they're already disabled, it would probably harder for them to push the seat up against a spring, than it is for people currently to pull the seat down.
Trainset is not handicapped safe....no secure tiepoints available like on busses. IF they get their but into seat the wheelchairs rolls away.
Wheelchairs have brakes.
Put some hydraulics into that shiz! Let go...fssssssssss tap! Cmon OnTheJuice, go to the local ghetto car shop and pick some of that good stuff up, install a test one in secret and then model it off to the superintendent ;-)
Heh. Reminds me of an old army experiment that made it into some movie about a pedal-operated arrangement for the latrine so all the seats would pop up properly and neatly for inspection.
Yeah, Juice! Go for it! Might be a prototype for the 160's. :)
Get a patent on it and then sell the rights to Alstom for $$$$$$ !!!
--Brian
As I had posted some time ago, the handicapped seating is unsafe and probably illegal. Take a look at the busses...the seat folds out of the way to expose securing points for a wheelchair which must be secured by the driver. Now look at the New Tech: just a spring loaded seat in which a handicapped passenger is expected to be able to access without even one handhold. A handicapped toilet stall has more access. The whole thing went out of control to comply with Federal Standards. Oops...the wheelchair just rolled out of the car onto the platform by itself! Another 'bill of goods' TA got sold on...I experienced the 'handicap access thing' firsthand in a potential lawsuit that required equipment I maintained to be removed for installation of a lift platform which never sees use. OOPS/BANG/EVERYONE IS LOOKING AT ME. CI Peter
I guess they figure the handhold by the door is close enough. As a disabled person, my eyes, no physically, I'm pretty familiar with regulations. I doubt the TA would install such seats without doing research to make sure they are totally compliant. I plan to ask the head of disabled student services at CUNY where I work what he thinks. Also, on a subway car, I think the wheelchair's breaks are sufficient. A train rides much more smoothly than a bus.
I have a question. The TA says that there will be no 5 service between 149th Street and Bowling Green next weekend. Now, do they mean 3rd AVE. or Grand Concourse. Also, how will they turn 5 trains around? The only way I can think of is the crossover between GCC and 3rd Avenue, but that would interfere with the 2's.
Also The No.4 Line is running in two sections
1. 125 St to Woodlawn
2. 125 St to Utica/New Lots
But, HOW are they doing it?
I asked that same question a few days ago in another thread. Go find it and read the variety of conjectures we all came up with.
The advisory poster states 149th-GC.
Relaying on the middle track between 149th and 138th might be the choice - shouldn't pose any problems with 4 service.
Looks like that means the only #5 service will be between Dyre & E.180th. Take the #2 to 149/GC and change for the #4.
My guess, and it's just a guess, is that the 5 may go to Times Square on the 7th Ave line. That's a very common GO. I'll pick up a GO sheet at work tomorrow, and I'll let you know for sure. I'll be home by 1am.
Well, I couldn't find that GO stating that 5 service will run between 149-Dyre.
It's so weird because it's on the list of weekly service changes published by the TA, but when I actually looked up the GO on the GO sheets, I found nothing. I'll try to find out exactly what's going on when I go back to work tonight.
The service change posting online looks like a last minute addition -- it's in the wrong font. Maybe the GO hasn't been written up yet. (There has to be something; the 5 can't run south of 125.)
There's actually a GO going on between 149 and E.180 this weekend. In addition to the split service on the 4, one would have to assume the 5 will end up terminating at E.180 or Times Square. I hope I get one of those sweet GO jobs. Something like two trips from Dyre to Times Square. Let's see what the crew office has planned for me.
If you find out what's going on, please let us know.
5 trains will relay on M track at 139.
4 trains will run in two sections. Utica-125 and 125-WDL. The Utica-125 relay is M track at 138 on the 6 line.
It's going to be one of the worst weekends to be a passenger on the Lexington line. If the Yankees are home, it'll be even worse.
What's 139? Do you mean 138 (on the 4/5) or do you mean 135 (on the 2/3), or do you mean something else entirely? Is the 4 express in Manhattan? Anything strange on the 2, like single-tracking?
Sorry. I meant 3rd Ave. on the 6 line. That's where the 4's are relaying as far as I know.
I know. (That's where the 4 always relays when it terminates at 125.) I'm asking about the 5.
The 5 will relay on M track at 138, one station south of 149/GC.
The Yankees are up in the NorthWest this weekend. Perfect timing.
They won't schedule such a GO during a Yankees homestand. When the Mets had the Monday day game last week, the GO sending Flushing bound trains express from 61st to Flushing only ran Tuesday thru Friday.
Looking at the photo below, it appears that the BMT standard # 2390 crashed into and beyond the bumper in the 1977 picture labelled "fan trip" What exactly happened, or is the picture mislabeled.
bmtb2390-19770724c.jpg
Can't see it.
That photo was mislabelled. The trainset was being operated by a T/O that had no experience with older non-SMEE equipment. He took a brake as the Standards approached the bumping block, but kept going.
The older equipment took a lot of skill for brake application. The innovation of the SMEE brake simplified the process.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry for butting in ... AMUE and its predecessors was a dose of 1001 ... 1002 ... 1003 ... 1004 ... whew! Not to mention that the controls were backwards too from what we hold today. Thanks for that fill-in there, I was wondering how it happened myself having been in a similar situation of sorts once myself that wasn't unfamiliarity with the equipment. :)
Yup, BMT equipment had the controller on the right and the brake valve on the left. Heypaul set up his R-9 cab that way, too. Someone once mentioned here that a good rule of thumb was rotating a control clockwise meant go while counterclockwise meant stop. I can see where you can get thrown for a loop if you're not used to a particular arrangement. As a timpanist, I'd be in the same situation if I had to play on a set where the largest drum was on the right and the smallest on the left, which is how they do it in continental Europe. I was trained the oppposite way - smallest on the right, largest on the left.
Yep ... now you know why me, being the prodigal HERETIC here, thought the IND got it right. Made life easier for A division too. :)
BMT ... arse backways. Heh.
Two track workers working with a Gradall Hi-Rail were injured today when the Gradeall became unbalanced with a load of ties and fell in its side. Giving 1 member a broken leg and the second person a concussion. Service was not disrupted as they were running shuttle busses from Kanmore to Coston College.
Some more bad experiences with passengers Friday, this time on the IND.
Scene: Southbound B train, approximately 9:50 am. Train consists of R-68 cars, signed with an Orange B, destined for 145 St and 34 St/Herald Square. I am operating in the first car.
Train pulls into 125 St at about 32 mph and is met with three loud bangs as 3 soda cans impact on my front window. Unable to see who threw them due to the curve in the station, but that's not important, as I still have to clear the window AND stop the train in the station.
Advance time to 10:08 am. Same train, arriving at 34 St. Small group of people standing at 10 car marker near the stairs. Dump train, lock cab and step off into: Screaming man, entirely to close to my face. "When the f** is the next f***ing Q train gonna get here?! We've been waiting a f***ing half an hour and all that ever shows up is a f***ing B that doesn't go anywhere!!" (see below) Pausing a minute to figure out how to answer this, he continues screaming, "Well, you gonna answer me a**hole?!"
Determining the customer to be not working properly, I cut off his continuing rant. "Look, sir. The Q does not stop at this platform. I'm sorry you had to wait so long before asking for help, but if you had read that sign right over your head, it points you to where the Q does stop."
"This is where I ALWAYS catch the d***ed Q. You tellin' me I don't know where I'm goin"?"
"Sir, the Q hasn't stopped at this platform in over a year. I'm sorry if you missed the news about the service changes. When you get to your destination, ask the station agent for a current Subway map so you don't get caught off guard again."
The customer, and his group, huffs off up the stairs, mumbling something about wisea**es.
Sadly, this is not an uncommon scene. I find that many subway customers are rude, lazy and tend to blame subway crews for their own inability to read and follow directions. Someone should explain to these customers that train crews are just trying to make a living and should not be treated like cattle.
My apologies to Mitch45 for abusing his original post, but when these two incidents happened on the same day, I felt it only fair to highlight the other side.
All dialogue is verbatim: I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried.
Sounds like you encountered a prize jackass. You said exactly the right thing. Bloody hell, how can someone be (1) so thick and (2) so ungrateful?
and 3: a jackass,4:stupid. uhhh should i go on. its ridiculous today.
another example happened today on the R at 9St. the doors were closing and some people came rushing toward the train and some,excuse me here but, dick holds the doors open and refuses to let go,i keep telling the jerk to let go,and he's like "go back to your seat" a flat out go f*** yourself is what i told him,i even tried getting his fingers outta the way,should've used my keys to bang and scratch his fingers.ridiculous no? i tell you what,im sure as hell not tolerating people holding doors anymore,im gonna do whatever to make sure they let go.
That's rough. If no one's looking, I give you permission to punch someone like that. Or at lease spray some mace in his eyes and call it self-defense. Who's gonna argue in a situtation like that?
Oh no ... when you escape from one of those without having to flag down a cop, those are the "war stories" you sit on and savor for the next time you're in mixed company and someone decides to complain about the "morons who run the subway" ... then you let it out to frolic. :)
Alex wasn't assaulted, tried to do the right thing and got flipped off for it anyway. And so it goes. "If I had a million tokens, I'd buy you a car" ...
Here's one of my OWN war stories of "geese on the rampage" ... northbound, PM rush, pulled into West 4th. Door close up, get indication, release and pull. Suddenly BAM! BAM! BAM! on the cab door. "You didn't let me get OFF! Back this train up ***NOW*** so I can get off." (had my door clipped) ... explained through the hole that he could get off at 34th and double back, I can't back up the train for him as nicely as I could put it.
Goose demanded that I stop the train so he could walk back through the TUNNEL. Sheesh. Smelled something wasn't right, told him there were plenty of trains that would get him back faster than he could walk, a simple matter of going up the stairs, across and down the stairs to the other side while I removed my clip and shut and locked my door. The MORON decided to punch out the front window!
But wait ... it gets better ... the front window on this particular "Arnine" was one with the split window frame and the "chicken wire reinforcement" inside the glass (someone can mention if it was an R4, R6-2 or whatever here, I don't care) and the moron got STUCK in the chicken wire and was now bleeding like a stuck pig. Coming into 34th, long short long short for police who had to extricate the moron from the window and bring him in for regrooving. Train was held, backing up the railroad for better than a half hour while the "investigation" was completed during the HEIGHT of rush (17:15) ...
So Alex, if you just got yelled at, shake it off ... heh. Some morons are their own worst enemas ...
BANG! BANG! BANG! on the door again. "STOP THE F*CKING TRAIN NOW" ... another "sorry, I can't. Couple of seconds go by and suddenly I hear an even LOUDER bang but this time I hear GLASS hitting the floor outside my cab door.
Heh... And I always thought it was strange how Philly's Broad Street Subway cars have the metal bars across the interior cab windows. My first reaction was, "Shit, this must be a tough town."
-- David
Chicago, IL
Heh. I'm actually surprised that AIRLINERS got "bulletproof doors" before the subways did. :)
Yeah I'm sure that on any particular day, more guns are carried on one NYC subway train than on all the ailiners in the US combined.
--Brian
I actually think that that is cause that kid who got himself beheaded in the subway after getting into a cab (whether it was locked or not we'll never know, odd are it was locked, the urchin jimmied it open). I may be wrong, since I had my first ride on the BSS after that, and as such probably should defer to others for a more definitive answer.
I'll bet it wasn't Sylvester Stallone kicking out the window.
I remember that chicken wire embedded in the storm door glass. IIRC all of the R-1/9s had those panes unless they were replaced. R-1 100 at the Transit Museum has them. So did the R-10s. I think the side door windows on the BMT standards had them, too; not sure about the storm doors.
Yep, sumbeech got his damned ARM stuck in the thing the way the mesh trapped him, and he was still there when "P/O responded" according to the paperwork. Hey, I gave it a shot, he had a way out and a solution that I handed him. He OPTED to be stupid. Sorry, grew up in the Bronx where LOTS of people died EVERY day for being stupid and sticking a needle in their arm, buying a gun without knowing how to aim the freaking thing and a number of other "didn't momma TELL you that was stupid?" for me to have much sympathy for those who choose to be stupid. I feel sympathies for the stupid, but my heart goes out to the INNOCENT. Those who WOULDN'T do anything that insane.
But yeah, I don't think he got to his destination QUITE as fast as he would have had he:
A) Paid attention to the platform and gotten OFF the damned train at his stop
B) LISTENED to me when I told him it'd only cost him ten minutes, FAR less that a walk back through 10 cars and then some to get back to W4.
C) Not let his frustration get the better of him and get his damned ARM stuck in the glass
D) Threatened a Civil Service employee with the traditional state-granted "officer of the law" powers to arrest his ass even if I WASN'T issued a sidearm
or E) Threatened the ***COP*** who pulled his arm out of the fan window and then SWUNG at the cop.
Byebye said the tele-tubbies. :)
You mean this guy actually took a swing at the cop AFTER getting his arm untangled from that glass and chicken wire? I wonder what he was smoking...
Dunno ... but if he only PASSED the ganga into de cab, I wouldn't have solied my undies and pulled long-short, long-short to GET the boy outta my face when I pulled into 32. :)
But yeah, as Bugs Bunny woulda said, "WHATTA MAROON!" ... I felt NO pangs of guilt, and I was a liber-RAIL at the time ...
Kind of along the same lines as Red Foreman's "Dumbass!" from That '70s Show and Biff Tannen's "Buttheads!" from Back to the Future II.
Yep, that's it ... too many beers at the company bar instead of sleep. I meant "34th" instead of "32." and if the boy had passed da ganga, I would be MUCH less stupid than I am now... time to go to bed after being up all night. Moo. :)
Byebye said the tele-tubbies. :)
Uh-oh!
FIRST, we gas the rabbits. Then we hide the salami. Never DID trust Tinkie-winkie with that purple purse. Our OWN Revenerned Fallwell tells us that Tinkie-Winkie is a poofta. Takes one to KNOW one I surmise. :)
Rule number one - NO POOFTAS ... Rule number two - always charge the train to 90 # before moving the handle to "release" ... Rule number 3 - NO POOFTAS ... yada yada ... and now for something COMPLETELY the same ...
Again again!
Byebye ... byebye ... moooooo! :)
It's...
(cue up Monty Python theme)
You know it's always bugged me how Monty Python only used half of the Liberty Bell march!
I think the side door windows on the BMT standards had them, too; not sure about the storm doors.
Correct. That is waht they used before the invention of high tempered glass.
Back from a long convention in Bismarck. Moo
No Subways there : ( Elias
Back from a long convention in Bismarck. Moo
No Subways there : (
I'd've thought you of all people, Elias, would've come up with a plan for a Bismarck City Subway by now...
I'd've thought you of all people, Elias, would've come up with a plan for a Bismarck City Subway by now...
I *have* given it great thought, but well,,,,
most subway trains are longer than the city.
Well, I mean the city is only about six square miles, say three miles by two miles...
Trolley cars would work just fine.
Send Bob Diamond out here, and we will see what we can do.
Elias
Well, I mean the city is only about six square miles, say three miles by two miles...
Wow! I'd thought, being a state capital and all, Bismarck would've been bigger!
Trolley cars would work just fine.
Yay!!!
Wow! I'd thought, being a state capital and all, Bismarck would've been bigger!
New York City has a greater population than North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming and Idaho COMBINED!
: ) Elias
And all of those states still have one area code each.
And all of those states still have one area code each.
True, but we still have TWO Senators each.
Wanna Vote?
: ) Elias
I long ago gave up letting idiots bother me; I just enjoy sharing their exploits with the world at large. I've got to admit, though, that anyone dumb enough to break windows on moving trains with their own body parts deserves a spot in 'The Idiot's Hall of Fame'.
It never ceases to amaze me how people, when they get enraged, only take it all out on themselves. Of course, it's always someone else's fault when faced with the results of their rage. Yeah, the guy got burned for 10-15 minutes by not paying attention had he just done the relay at 34th. Instead, it probably cost the moron the better part of a day. Assuming he didn't spend a night at the Manhattan House'o'D. :)
Yeah, but if he got to visit 100 Centre Street, he'd get a nice box of Rice Krispies at 4AM! Every cloud has............
My favorite is the upset person waiting for a 4 train at Mosholu Pkwy. As I passed on the middle track with my baseball special this person removed one of his boots and threw it at the train.
Ya know? I've had shoes thrown at me 30+ years ago. And for the rest of the trip, I had a sheet-eating grin knowing what the moron would be stepping in for the rest of the day until they got to a Buster Brown. :)
Well on the M train a few weeks ago, kids on the street by Seneca Avenue threw spongeballs at the train, and almost hit the cab window at my operating position, and 2 months ago a "very kind, very understanding person" threw a bottle towards me at 8th Avenue when I was on the L just because I closed down and TRIED to make my scheduled departure (I mean I had only held the train in the station for almost 5 minutes because this night my train got SWAMPED by people coming from the A nd E line upstairs, and I had to let everyone know I couldn't hold the train all night there and had to go, and I had to seize the first clear spot I had to go!!)
Wow ... wonder how I managed to split up the edit the way I did there, just noticed a piece of it fell off to past the end. Whoops.
More of 'the other side':
I too had an experience with some customers yesturday on the F. Made my annoucements regarding running on the G. At Broadway he gets off the train starts cursing at me (he was in T/O's car, so he's yelling real loud so I can hear) and when I pass yells about not telling him that the F was running that way. T/O told me at the terminal that this guy had been banging on his window hard and cursing, thought the window was going to bust in.
I bring this up because Mitch45, understandably, says that customers should not be treated as they are by some employees. On the other side of that, employees should not be treated (or feel threatened) as they are by some customers. But too often we hear the customer's side of things.
As you should. I'm not making excuses for rudeness. But WE are the customers and YOU are providing the service. WE are not getting paid to ride the rails, but YOU are getting paid to do so. You are in a service business, and you have to take the customers as you find them. I'm sorry you encountered rude people, but that doesn't excuse you for being rude back.
Such is the sandbox in which we live.
The subway is not a private business. Your $1.50 only pays for a fraction of the cost of moving you from point A to point B. And either way, both TA employees and commuters should show mutual respect for one another. I've ran into my share of @sshole conductors (including one today on an M train who thought it would be fun to run through the tunnel between 9th Ave and 36th St. with no lights on). But I see @sshole commuters every day.
Your $1.50 only pays for a fraction of the cost of moving you from point A to point B.
That depends on what points A and B are. If they're far-flung points on lines that are only busy rush hours, you're probably right. If they're both points in Manhattan on a line that's busy all day and night, you're probably wrong.
That is one of the best things about NYC - you can get anywhere in the city for $1.50 - much better than the Zone 1-6 fares in London!
I'm pretty sure that the momentary switches to turn lights on and off are not in the C/R cabs on the equipment running on the M; instead, they are located in the T/O position. And he can't tell the lights are out until someone lets him know.
Yes, those switches are in the T/O's cab. I had a T/O that forgot on the J, and we mad eit to Bowery before he remembered. I tried to do it myself, but ah, the lovely stuck cab doors. :)
The conductor made no attempt to tell the T/O to turn on the lights. He was enjoying making the people in his car cringe.
TA workers are not paid to take abuse from the riding public, rather they are paid to get them from point A to point B.
I'd like to just say one last thing, the thing that everyone conveniently forgets (even I did when I made the last post about the a-hole customers at B-way on the F), because they feel someone else should act like this because they are a customer or like that because they are an employee.
Everyone in the subway, whether passenger or employee, is human (except for pets), and as such we are all bound to get annoyed, lose our temper, yell, scream, etc. Yeah, its not an excuse, but something we need to keep in mind. Its all part of being able to express such things. Yeah, that's no excuse for the those who constantly have an attitude, but there are the occaisions where even the nicest person turns nasty. A bad day, a run in with our bosses, whatever. It happens.
The point of this was not to say "Be nice to each other." That'll never happen. The point is, whatever what your position - passenger or employee - we all lose control at some point, and the posts just mention some of them. When this happens, just brush it off.
And if you don't like this, come underground, and I'll show you my form of anger management :) I'm kidding, of course.
Yo Tony ... you ARE aware that there's people out there who would actually get OFF on being the recipient of a shoe paddle? :)
Those are some sick people :)
It's funny how those deepest into "social discipline" are the first to drop trou for a shoe paddle. Whatta country. :)
Heh. That's the turn of the S key I remember. While I realize that most "customers" don't ever want to hear things like this, your reality was mine as well, more often than I wanted to remember and is the reason why I seem so "customer unfriendly" when I refer to Darwin's offspring. A token and a dream. :)
I must say -- you are beautiful!
mitch45 refuses to read this post!
Oh?
Alex, you are completely right. That man and his group are obviously a bunch of a**holes and are clearly too stupid to know how to look atask for a map. It's a real damn shame that so many people behave in that manner. If I saw this guy, I'd have definitely told him he obviously doesn't know where he's going and to stop ranting and raving like a nutjob. Clearly that man belongs in a mental hospital and I hope he ends up in one. No one who is simply trying to do his job deserves that kind of treatment. That man has no excuse for his actions. Everyone should know by now that the Q no longer runs on 6th Avenue. It hasn't run there in over a year. He should have known.
Maybe I should argue with the crew about the "T" not running ;-) Sheeesh...it isn't just in the subway that people don't read or look. I've had people ask me where the elevator was in my office building - and they were standing RIGHT IN FRONT OF IT!!!! I don't even give them a verbal response - i just point to the up/down buttons and keep walking.
Good work, alex. ou managed to handle yourself in a mature and professional manner. you should be proud of yourself that you told the truth and never resorted to violence (unless you were in serious danger). I'm surprised he didn't know the Q stopped there in over a year. What a dumba$$.
Backround:
G.O. on Brighton All weekend, manhattan bound trains running express Kings Hwy to Prospect Park not stopping at Newkirk.
Scene:
South Q pulls in and customers notice a north Q just entering the station. Over 50+ cutomers run down two stairs to cross over to northbound Q.
Some are able to get on the north Q, but as they are still streaming up the stairs with little kids and ederly with canes the rear half is closed down. The front half is attempt to be closed down with C/R yelling "Don't Hold the Doors" (more and more people are still coming up the stairs) and the Platform C/R is waving people away from the doors yelling "Stand Clear".
Trian closes up and off it goes stranding 30+ people still on the platform (some still are coming up the stairs).
This is weekend service at approx 2pm, why couldn't the train wait a little? There is no north Q in sight ("train directly behind this one)why slam the door litterly in customers faces?
''This is weekend service at approx 2pm, why couldn't the train wait a little? There is no north Q in sight ("train directly behind this
one)why slam the door litterly in customers faces?''
Lets role reverse for a second. Your a c/r and you see a bunch of people coming down the stairs. When do you close the doors? Keep in mind your trying to stay on time. This is only the beginning of the run.
Do you leave the doors open for every one to get on, losing a minute or two?Or do you close the doors when there is a gap in the people? Now put this scenario for every stop to the end of the run.
Every minute your train is late increases the headway. A 10min headway to a 12-13 min headway increases the amount of passengers you pick up,increases the amount of dwell time in the major transfer stations for the passengers to get on and off. This increases your lateness as well. Factor in the 2-3 people who hold the doors and your late!!Then you have to explain to the dispatcher, sometimes control calls you on the radio asking.
Being a person who takes the train to work .I know how you feel when you miss the train . But there is a reason for it
But the GO is in effect and RTO has put a platform conductor here for that reason. This meet should be built into the GO and doors held.
This isn't a rush hour type situtation and the claim you will loose time is bogus since you are running express and not even stopping at Newkirk and would make up whatever time you lost keeping the doors open.
The past G.O.'s on the south side, the held south trains at Kings Hwy because the trains were hot from the G.O. running express from the Park the Highway and every one was gapped.
I feel the arguement of beeing late under this G.O. does not hold water.
I'm afraid I have to disagree.
We're not discussing a case of a bunch of people who happen by random chance to reach the station all at once, just as the train is scheduled to leave. In Lou's case, the TA is already forcing many of its passengers to double back by running all trains express in one direction. That already costs them more time than they should have to spend. Ideally, there should be timed connections of SB and NB trains, but at a minimum the schedules should be adjusted so that, if two opposing trains happen to meet where lots of people need to cross over, the NB train can afford to wait for the passengers coming off the SB one.
Two more examples.
First is the midday GO on the N in effect a few days this past June: SB trains ran express (nonstop) from 59th Street to Kings Highway. Now, recall that most of the passengers venturing south of 59th aren't going as far as KH, and that 8th Avenue is the busiest of the Sea Beach stations. Under the best of circumstances, most passengers were being forced to give up 20-30 minutes for the GO -- it's a scheduled 13 minutes from 59th to KH and the express run doesn't save any time. Couldn't schedules have been adjusted so that when the SB N train I was riding met a NB N train at KH, the NB train would be able to wait for almost all of the passengers on the SB train to cross over? But no, it didn't wait for any of us, so 20-30 minutes turned into 30-40 minutes, and the next train was doubly crowded (since another SB train dropped off its load before a NB train showed up).
Second is the very common weekend GO sending the SB W down the Sea Beach express. Most of the passengers on the train at Stillwell need to backtrack on a NB W to get where they're going. Yet, almost invariably, the SB W is stopped at the creek for a few minutes to let a NB W get out first. If the schedules were adjusted slightly, everybody on that SB W would be able to run across the platform to a NB W that would depart very shortly. Instead, they have to sit where they are for ten minutes.
This gets back to the fundamental question: is the TA in the business of moving people or of moving trains? At times it does an admirable job of moving trains while leaving passengers stranded on the platform, although one wonders if it wouldn't be more effective to just keep the doors closed at all times and run empty trains back and forth.
Well, that Triplex train in Class of '44 was empty.:)
Second is the very common weekend GO sending the SB W down the Sea Beach express. Most of the passengers on the train at Stillwell need to backtrack on a NB W to get where they're going. Yet, almost invariably, the SB W is stopped at the creek for a few minutes to let a NB W get out first. If the schedules were adjusted slightly, everybody on that SB W would be able to run across the platform to a NB W that would depart very shortly. Instead, they have to sit where they are for ten minutes.
Having done this more than you have (unless you're crazy enough to do it more than five times a day), in general, when a SB W gets held at the creek for this GO you describe, it is to let one of the two trains already in the station leave. Many times I've been hit with these from some grumpy customer; pointing out that we can't get in the station until that one leaves has no effect. The biggets problem with this Go (and its opposite) is that there is NO supplement. Trains are scheduled to leave both terminals at their regular times, resulting in odd arrival times.
I don't think I've ever boarded more than two W trains in a day, so you win on that count.
My experience, which may be atypical, is that usually only one W track at Stillwell is used during the GO. Obviously I don't expect three trains to occupy two tracks at once. Consider my comments to be implicitly restricted to the case of a SB W approaching an empty track at Stillwell only to be held so the NB W on the other track can get out first.
I agree that a supplement would come in handy. Assuming 10-minute headways, schedule each train to depart Stillwell 12 or 13 minutes after it arrives, with 1-2 tracks occupied at all times. Or would that mess things up at Pacific (or, in a month, at the merge with the R at 36th)?
Things at Pacific are messed up as a matter of course. You've never experienced the back ups at Pacific with the 8 minute headway on Saturday - it was so annoying that I only do Pacific st trains on Sundays now, with a 10 minute headway.
The situation you decsribe this time is usually the result of a train gone bad,leaving the dispatcher short one train but still needing to make service - after all, everyone who got on at Stillwell, whether first entering the system or transferring from the F and Q, wants to leave every bit as much as those on the SB W want it stay.
after all, everyone who got on at Stillwell, whether first entering the system or transferring from the F and Q, wants to leave every bit as much as those on the SB W want it stay.
Most of the people on any given W train hoping it's about to leave probably came off the prior W, which just missed its connection. Besides, asking the people who happen to be boarding at Stillwell to wait another two or three minutes for the train to leave is a far cry from asking a bunch of people who were already dragged miles out of their way to wait a full ten minutes.
The conductor has a schedule to keep. He can't arbitrarily hold the train.
This identical problem exists at Broadway Junction in the afternoon rush. The Canarsie bound L and Jamaica bound J always seem to arrive at the same time. If the conductor doesn't get the doors closed on the J within 15 seconds of the L opening it's doors, the train will be delayed for as much as 3 minutes while idiot after idiot holds the doors for people running from the L platform to the J platform. I think a police presence at this spot is justifiable.
That sounds like the L Train timetable should be adjusted by a few minutes.
My point is there is a G.O. in effect, this meet should be built in. In the worse case, the train is running express to Prospect Park and not even stopping at Newkirk (9 out 10 don't even slow down for the work zone). WHAT SCHEDULE TO KEEP??
Just hold the door for two more minutes would be made up by the express run to the Park.
When the G.O. was in effect south bound, all Q's were gapped at the Highway for being hot because of the G.O. I guess at Dekalb tower they don't do this for Prospect Park.
No, DeKalb gaps us at DeKalb.
See the post elsewhere in this thread about lack of supplements. This Go suffers from the same thing. If all the trains ran on schedule, there should never be a NB and a SB Q arriving at Kings H'way for this problem to occur.
I get caught up in that situation on a regular basis. Once the station dwell time increases, ENY Master Tower is squawking on the radio asking the crew if they are having a problem.
Good for you for keeping your cool. If it had been me, I would have lost my temper and told this idiot where he could shove his Q train. But then, there's a reason I no longer work customer service. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Just found a handwritten list of the front roll signs, obtained with the assistance of a cooperating motorman, for the 7000-series BMT Multi-Units; this list was written during my high school days in the late 1950s when I'd make every attempt to ride these speedsters (still, in my opinion, the fastest NYC subway cars ever made) from school back home in the afternoon....
Routes: (from top) 13, 14, 16
Destinations: (from top, all upper case) Canarsie, 8th Ave, Myrtle Ave, Atlantic Ave, Grant Ave, Lefferts Ave, Park Row, Sands St, Canal St, Special
If my memory serves me correctly, the 13 went from 8th Avenue to Lefferts (possibly also originally from Park Row or Sands Street), the 14 was the Broadway Short Line from Canal to Atlantic Avenue, and the 16 the full 8th Avenue to Canarsie route.
I'm puzzled. Did the Multis ever run to Sand Street or over the Brooklyn Bridge? I thought the only light-construction el structure they used was over Pitkin Avenue on 14th Street - Lefferts service. Joe McMahon
That's an excellent question and I certainly would like to know any definitive answers. Since they were built in 1936, and the Park Row Terminal closed in 1944, that possibility existed, especially since they had destination signs for Park Row and Sands Street. Their light weight would most likely have allowed them on the Fulton Elevated and over the Brooklyn Bridge. I do have a beautiful photo of their "sister" Blue Birds in downtown Brooklyn on the Fulton Elevated, and I'd guess these went to Park Row. However, I've never seen a photo of the Multis on other than the 13 (from 8th Avenue), 14 or 16 routes.
I don't know that the Multis ever ran regular service on lower Fulton. There wouldn't have been a lot of point to it, interspersed between C-types and gate cars.
They began life being tested on the Sea Beach express tracks and then began making regular intervals on 14th St. Canarsie. After the BMT was satisfied, they began operating their intended service, 14th St.-Fulton Street, no part of which, of course actually ran over Fulton Street. But they were ideal for the service, since their metal construction allowed them to operate in subway, and their light weight on the Pitkin Avenue structure.
Of course, they ended their lives as the stalwart of Myrtle-Chambers, the current M Line.
What you say about the fast Multi's being interspersed with the gate cars and Type C's has some logic, but then how does one account for the also fast Blue Birds on that same route?
Blue Birds at the time were a one-of-a-kind, and were used on the BMT's showcase Fulton Line, as were the Zephyr and Hornet. None of these constituted more than a single train.
The Multi's were production cars.
You noted the Blue Birds, Zephyr and Hornet were one-of-a-kind units, none of which constituted more than a single train. However, there were actually five Blue Birds (8001-8005).
Were they all assigned to Fulton, or four used elsewhere with only one on Fulton? Was the normal assignment of the Zephyr and Green Hornet on Fulton prior to its abandonment? And did the Multi have Cineston-type or standard dual-handle controls? I seem to remember Cineston.
You noted the Blue Birds, Zephyr and Hornet were one-of-a-kind units, none of which constituted more than a single train. However, there were actually five Blue Birds (8001-8005).
When the Fulton was still running west of Rockaway Avenue, there was only the one 80' long Bluebird. The other five were delivered under the BofT, so never saw mainline Fulton service.
Were they all assigned to Fulton, or four used elsewhere with only one on Fulton?
As I said, only the one was available while Fulton was running.
The five car set seemed to spend most of its service life on the Canarsie Line, humming over the only third-rail grade crossing on the system. The single Bluebird, which never had couplers, did some time on Brighton-Franklin but was mostly out of service.
Was the normal assignment of the Zephyr and Green Hornet on Fulton prior to its abandonment?
AFter "show-time" onthe Fulton, I think they both went to the Franklin shuttle, even while the BMT was still around. The Hornet was grabbed for the war effort in 1943, but the Zephyr stayed on the shuttle at least into the 1950s.
And did the Multi have Cineston-type or standard dual-handle controls? I seem to remember Cineston.
I'm about 95% that they had single-handle controllers, therefore Cineston. They were not beautiful (IMO) but weren't they a b;ast to ride?
Thank you for the clarifications.
Sure!
BTW, did you mention Chambers Street on the Multi rollsigns? THey had it, but I'm not sure about Metropolitan.
According to my notes, there was no Chambers Street or Metropolitan Avenue signs; perhaps for Metropolitan they used the Myrtle Avenue sign. It appears that the sign I read was the original; perhaps if there were later ones, with Chambers and Metropolitan were on them - or - another possibility was that those two destinations (or more) were added later and when I reached the white part of the curtain didn't continue to scroll down further, not realizing there may have been more signs added. If the SubTalkers can look at their Multi photos, perhaps we can come up with some answers.
There are pictures in the Multis section of this site with "Chambers Street" and "Myrtle Ave."
BTW, remember I said I was 95% that Multis had a single handle controller? Looks like the 5% takes it. I dug through my stuff and apparently the Multis had separate brake and controller, but according to railroad practice, not BMT practice--it had controller on the left, brake on the right.
The Multis had a SMEE-like controller and brake stand. The
brakes were self-lapping. AFAIK, the Multis were the first
production cars in the new york rapid transit system to have
dynamic brakes and self-lapping brake valves. (To be precise,
the GE half of the order had eddy current brakes, not dynamics).
The WABCO brake control package was extremely convoluted and
reportedly the cars often suffered from brake failures. The R-10s,
ordered by the city 14 years later, were technically similar
to the MS, but slower, heavier and not articulated.
The single-handle "cineston" controller was found on the Bluebird
PCC rapid transit cars.
Compared to the multis, everything was slower.
The R-10s, ordered by the city 14 years later, were technically similar to the MS, but slower, heavier and not articulated.
A fair comparison, but still the R10 could move. They were the last piece of equipment ordered for the system that you could say were noticeably superior in performance to the prior order of equipment.
The R11 was the end of innovation.
THe R15 was the last feeble attempt at "pretty."
Then the long winter's night set in...
No, the R-10s were not slowpokes by any means. OTOH I can just imagine a train of multis rocketing past 81st St. on the CPW express dash at about 60 mph (their balancing speed was 58). People would be asking each other, "What was that?!?"
The comparison of the Multis to other equipment reminds me of when my wife and I bought our first (and probably last) sports car--a Toyota MR2.
The kid at 7-11 asked me "is it quick?" Not fast, "quick". It's a different concept. My Ford Explorer is fast, but it is not quick. The sports car was quick.
The Multis were both fast and quick.
If I remember correctly, the Multis had signs inside them reminding passengers to hold onto the grab bars at all times. I'd deliberately go out of my way most days when returning home from school to ride them; they were, in my opinion, the Cyclone roller coaster cars of the New York subway system. There never was a faster accelerating or running New York subway car. It's a shame not one was preserved; nor are there any models of this unit currently available. Pity the poor younger railfans who never experienced the orgasmic thrill of a Multi..... Their aesthetics left something to be desired, but they were absolutely beautiful to ride and enjoy.
If they still had a Multi AND they used it on fan trips, AND they allowed the T/O to show what it could do, I think it would be too much of an embarassment to the MTA compared to their other equipment.
I wonder whether constructing a replica would be possible - do the plans for the train still exist?
I'm sure they have a copy of the plans, or could get one from any number of sources, but I ain't holding my breath. ;-)
Could steal the plans and really annoy the hell out of the MTA by selling them to the Russians - then do a nice railfan trip to Nizhniy Novgorod or whereever...
The Russians can't afford to pay much :)
You know they built the Moscow subway by buying one shield from Britain and then making duplicates. Is sharing, Comrade.
The Russians can't afford to pay much
Fine then, the Japanese!
I say we give them to the Germans. Could be the next big thing since the "ICE" train!
I'm not familiar with the term "balancing speed". Could anyone shed some light on what balancing speed is? Is it something like a crusing speed, a speed the train could run at without pushing itS maximums capacity?
Thanks
Balancing speed is the steady speed a train will run at with its controller on at its highest notch on a straight level track.
Motor speed is the speed at which that same train will operate under the above conditions, but on a downgrade--i.e., the magnetic forces of the motor will tend to restrain the train to that speed.
Almost all R-type equipment up to (IIRC) the R42 was rated at a balancing speed of 50 mph and a motor speed of 55 MPH, though I don't know if they could still do that now.
Howdy, guy! Here's a site that serves to explain it all, with pictures ...
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/tract-01.html
Wow--I understand everything. Well, everything but for why the MTA disabled field shunting on all the revenue equipment.
Dan
They wanted the railroad to slow down ... for "safety." That was an easy way to accomplish same without changing the gear ratios.
How did the topic title change? Weird.
There ya are. :)
Gotta ask Danilm ... I just play 'em where they land. One has fewer strokes that way. Moo.
It's a product of the AOL-ized (translation: f***ed up) Netscape.
Well, Chambers St. at least:
Does anyone know why the BMT deviated from its long-standing
practice of controller on the right, brake on the left with
the MS order? I think the prototype cars, the Green Hornet
and the Zephyr, had it BMT style.
I guess on the same subject, why did the BMT do it wrong-handed
in the first place? I can trace the practice back to the earliest
MU cars of the BRT. However, on the surface routes, the BRT kept
the controller on the left.
When the SIRT took delivery of their cars in 1925, they made special note of the fact that the equipment had the controller on the left and brake handle on the right, saying that they felt it made it an easier transition for steam locomotive engineers.
I take this as an acknowledgement that this was different practice from BMT cars, though they didn't explicitely say so.
Paul...The lone Bluebird(8000) delivered to the BMT did run on the entire Fulton El. I gleaned this info from "Subway and Elevated Cars of the BMT"(pictures included). The question is..how long did it run there?
Hayos
Paul...The lone Bluebird(8000) delivered to the BMT did run on the entire Fulton El. I gleaned this info from "Subway and Elevated Cars of the BMT"(pictures included). The question is..how long did it run there?
Hayos
Paul...The lone Bluebird(8000) delivered to the BMT did run on the entire Fulton El. I gleaned this info from "Subway and Elevated Cars of the BMT"(pictures included). The question is..how long did it run there?
Hayos
Yes, the single Bluebird did make that run. Couldn't be too long, since the single Bluebird was 1939 and the Fulton was gone the next June.
As a side note, someone noted that the Hornet/Multis/BB/Zephyr could have run to Park Row until the end in 1944 (except 1943 for the Hornet) but they couldn't have, since the only access was via Myrtle, which was a 9' car only line.
I thought the Green Hornet looked beautiful, and quite beyond it's time. In Greller's BMT cars book, there's a photo from 1936 showing the Hornet at Franklin/Fulton, with a C-type on the opposite track. The Hornet actually looks more modern than today's redbirds.
The Hornet actually looks more modern than today's redbirds.
Arguably the most modern looking cars to run on the Subway (and definitely the best looking) were all the BMT oddities - Green Hornets, Zephyrs, and Bluebirds. The Multis don't seem too exciting from the photos, but they served their purpose better than all those heavy cars ever could.
By "heavy cars" you're referring to...?
He's probably referring to the standards and triplexes.
Actually there were six Bluebirds. The first was 8000 built in 1938, which was the last car built for the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Company. It always ran by itself mainly because it did not have mu couplers.
8001-8005 where bulit in 1940 for the New York City Board of Transportation. Weither or not this was due to some legal complications due to the city takeover of the BMT and monies where owed to the Clark Equiptment Company or it was an attempt by the BOT to improve the subway system I do not know. These five cars almost always ran together constituting the "Bluebird" train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, the BMT were so happy with the Bluebird that they ordered a production run of 50. The BofT cancelled them except for the five, and I belive those were the ones in production, so it was more useful for the City to take delivery than pay the penalty for cancelled.
or it was an attempt by the BOT to improve the subway system
You have a dry sense of humor, Larry. ;-)
Paul: The Bluebirds were the ultimate developement of the BMT quest for an articulated car to run both on the subway and el lines. The Multis were great workhorses but not beauty queens. The Bluebirds were the nicest looking cars to run on the system up until the arrival of the Redbirds and Bluebirds II in the early sixties. Its a shame that there is such a paucity of good quality color photos of the first Bluebirds. They really were pretty cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Bluebirds were the ultimate developement of the BMT quest for an articulated car to run both on the subway and el lines.
Better than that, even. The Bluebirds were PCCs, and the BMT looked forward to the economies of scale of being able to use some parts between rapid transit and trolley divisions.
The first thing the BofT did was cancel the order. They couldn't do anything to stop the 5 since they were already in production.
Why no "12" if they ran on Myrtle-Chambers ? I guess they seldom saw Jamaica unless an AM rush "14" originated there.
Don't you mean "why no 10"? 12 is (was) the Lex
The BMT evidently didn't anticipate using these on Myrtle-Chambers, although it wouldn't have been a very nig deal to have more than just 13, 14 and 16 on the roll signs.
The big question, IMO, is why they included 14. 13 was the 14th-Fulton St. 16 was there because the Multis made regular intervals on 14th St. Canarsie.
My guess is that they may have considered a Broadway-Brooklyn-Fulton service, which would have justified the 14. Even in the 50s, Broadway Brooklyn Locals made multiple eastern destinations, including Eastern Parkway, Atlantic Ave., Canarsie, Crescent St. and 111 St. Adding Lefferts might have been useful.
I'm not sure if #14 trains ever terminated at 111th. Lexington Ave. el trains did during rush hours.
I can't go to the mat that some #14s ended at 111, though the Standards were signed for it, but several intervals started there (not the skip-stops, which started at 168), at least in 1961.
But they were ideal for the service, since their metal construction allowed them to operate in subway, and their light weight on the Pitkin Avenue structure.
Would that mean that, if a load of them had been bought for the Southern Division, the Manny B wouldn't have needed to be part-closed so soon (IIRC the weight of the trains had caused the problem)?
If you accept that weight of the trains was the ultimate problem.
Brooklyn Bridge used to accept very heavy axle loadings from train and trolley traffic, now they hint that a few too many SUVs could bring it down.
Brooklyn Bridge used to accept very heavy axle loadings from train and trolley traffic, now they hint that a few too many SUVs could bring it down.
Two changes in the early 1950's reduced the Brooklyn Bridge's live load to 15 lb/ft2. These were the removal of the intermediate trusses - which essentially precluded heavy axle loading and the substitution of a metal decking (with some concrete and asphalt) instead of the original wooden paving blocks.
BTW, the Brooklyn Bridge did not tolerate heavy axle loadings all that well. There is a noticeable dip in the roadways at the towers as a result of overloading by trolley cars.
Perhaps the Manhattan Bridge would have flexed a bit less with multis crossing it instead of Triplexes. At least it wouldn't have said, "Oh, my aching deck!" so much.
The problem on the Manny B is not the weight but the placement of the tracks. Flexing up and down is not a problem for suspension bridges, but twisting is.
How the designers decided to put tracks on the outside is the question!
The chief designer was Leon Moisseff (or Moisseiff), 1972-1943. I presume he was asked to provide 8 tracks of service on the bridge. Perhaps, he did not consider that subway trains would become as heavy as the Standards. On the Brooklyn Bridge, pedestrians had the center, then the wooden el cars flanking the walkway, then the streetcars on a roadway that would also have horse-drawn wagons. By the planning time of the Manhattan Bridge, perhaps they noticed that gasoline-powered wagons were heavier. They placed the walkers on the outside and the vehicular traffic in the center. From my insufficient reading of bridge books, I get the impression that Leon Moisseff had great faith in his theories and proposals and fought off the advice of other engineers. I understand that the towers of the Manhattan Bridge (which bend) are his success. His design theories cost him dearly in 1940 when his slender Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapsed. This thread of multis is important to the Manhattan Bridge discussion. A very interesting book on bridge designers is Engineers of Dreams (1995) by Henry Petroski.
Wrong dates in my message. Leon Moisseff lived 1872-1943.
A very interesting book on bridge designers is Engineers of Dreams (1995) by Henry Petroski.
Ditto for some of his other works, most notably To Engineer is Human and The Pencil. He's incredibly readable, even for the non-technical person.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I haven't noticed anyone mentioning the one real flaw in the Multi-Sections, which was the full-width interior wall (with door) that blocked access to the front window and door--in other words, no railfan window. There was a small window in the inside door, looking almost like the way one would look into an execution chamber.
The BMT may well have been thinking about OPTO, though I don't recall ever hearing anything about that possibility.
Moving forward in time: It's interesting how Philadelphia can have a traditional operator's cab with one-person operation but New York and Chicago have to build a solid wall across the entire width of a car. Even the loss of passenger seating and standing room is ignored.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
In Philadelphia, do they walk across to see the "opposite" side doors, or do they use mirrors? I think walking is better, so the operator can look out the window to observe the doors, if that's how it's being done in all NYC situtions.
In philly the M4 operators use Cameras and TV screens located inside the cab for observation. There is no walking accross. On the Broad st. subway, the operators walk accross like NYCT. On PATCO the operator sits on the left and the door are operated on both sides using mirrors. All subways and PATCO are OPTO.
Operators on Denver's light rail trains sit on the left side of the full-width cab and use mirrors to observe passengers getting on and off. The door controls are right in front of them.
In Chicago, before they rebuilt the older cars, they did OPTO without a full width cab. They just used yellow tape to block off the front end of the car so that the TO didn't have to climb over passengers to operate doors on the left side.
-- Ed Sachs
Just take a look at the Tyneside Metro system in the North East of England,full OPTO with half cabs (left side).
Rob
Just like Baltimore and Miami. All island platforms and T/O position on the left.
After years of being used to seeing the motorman on the right side in NYC, it was quite a shock to witness operation from the left side on the Baltimore Metro.
And that's how you do OPTO without sacrificing the "railfan window", thanks to a forward facing seat and a full window to see out of.
Or just use the wireless camera system that SETPA uses on its M-4 cars. The MFL has both sidewall and island platforms, but the in-cab cameras provide a perfect view every time.
I've gotta agree with Mike, the M-4 cameras are doing a great job.
Dwell times are short at each station because of this feature.
Chuck Greene
>>> the M-4 cameras are doing a great job. <<<
Given the low position a New York C/R operates from, he/she could use them also.
Tom
Agreed that SEPTA has done a great job with the railfan windows on the MFSE. There is, however, a downside in that sometimes the view can get blocked by foamers from Branford.
Oh the humanity! That explains though why SEPTA is upgrading the cab doors. :)
When I was on the Pikes Peak Cog Railway, I noticed that the driving position was on the right side at the uphill end of the trains, and at the left side at the downhill end of the trains - which is to say, the two positions were both on the east side of the train. The top and bottom stations have their platforms on opposite sides of the train, so that doesn't explain it! The trains aren't OPTO, so OPTO isn't anything to do with it, either.
I wonder why this is. And I wonder whether there is any other railway system that doesn't have all of its driving positions on the same side, whether left or right.
The Pikes Peak Cog Railway is a diesel operation nowadays. I can't answer your question about the cab placement, unfortunately. I rode on it once, way back in 1979.
SEPTA uses OPTO on the MFSE with small cab; TV image of the platform are transmitted into the cab.
The BMT may well have been thinking about OPTO, though I don't recall ever hearing anything about that possibility.
The possibility of OPTO was not lost on the BMT. It was mentioned in the literature, when the cars were placed in service.
I rode the Acela Express to Penn today. It wasn't my original plan. I had a ticket for the 2:00 regular Metroliner train out of South Station, but plans changed, and I arrived early enough to change my ticket. I figured that for the extra $26, I might take advantage of the opportunity. Who knows when I'll be riding the Northeast corridor again.
I was extremely impressed by the interior of the cars. The seats recline almost too far, and are a plush cloth far more comfortable than airline seats. There was ample leg room (good when you're 6'-2"), with a foot rest. I see Amtrak has upgraded their snack bar selection (and their price) for Acela. Also, there were strips of 120 Volt standard sockets along the floor so I could plug the laptop in. I think the regular Amtrak metroliner coaches had this too. Its been a while. It was a beautiful day, and our engineer always sounded the horn to waving onlookers lining the shore.
The train flew. I have no idea how fast we were going, but at times, it seemed really fast. We were so early into New Haven that we had to wait like 20 minutes. We could have made the trip super fast in a straight shot. I think the overall travel time was 3:40. The ride was very smooth, except between Providence and Rhode Island, where the conditions seemed to deteriorate a bit, causing vibrations and bumps. Rounding curves at high speed, I could see the cars lean into the turn. All in all, it was very cool.
Saw lots of New Haven line MetroNorth MUs. I was wondering to myself what would stop someone from driving one of those all the way to Boston. Unlike Harlem and Hudson line service, the MUs have an overhead power source all the way. Although I've made the trip before, I must have been sitting on the other side, for I noticed quite a bit of unused ROW passing through the East Bronx. Its a shame there isn't more development there. Its kind of an awkward location.
The subway trip home took almost a third of the time of the Acela trip. Ugh.
MATT-2AV
Sounds exciting. Someday I'll take an Acela Express. But I'd rather ride any of the high speed trains in Europe or Japan. But that's not likely to happen any time soon. For now Acela Regional will have to do. And I rode that last month. It was fun :)
--Brian
The Budd MUs that Metro-North uses (M2's and M4's, I believe) are not fitted for 25,000 volt operation north of New Haven.
Metro-North could refit them for that operation, if the railroad wanted to. Issues would include expense and goals of such a refit. Would Metro-North want to merge with Shore Line East and offer service all the way to Providence RI? (You could transfer from MBTA to Metro-North!) Would the ridership support the $$$$ needed to overhaul those train sets?
"Would the ridership support the $$$$ needed to overhaul those train sets?"
Oh, I doubt it. If people are willing to go that far, they can take Amtrak and travel a bit more comfortably than in a MetroNorth MU. I was just asking if it was possible. I didn't realize that there was a power change North of New Haven. How does Amtrak handle that? There must be some interruption in the caternary. I didn't notice any power interruption on the Acela train. It must be of good design so that it can move from one power source to another seamlessly.
MATT-2AV
Sounds like fun. I'm trying to get my wife to agree to take Acela to Washington DC on our next visit there. So far, she's resisting.
You're right - the regular Amtrak Metroliner coaches have power sockets for laptops too. Its one of Amtrak's main selling features vs. airplanes, where you can't use laptops.
The weekend Acela Express schedules have extra padding, presumably in case there's construction going on that requires single-tracking or inflicts other delays between New Haven and Boston. I also took my one Acela Express ride Boston-NY on a Sunday, and we had to wait at New Haven for about 15 minutes because we arrived early.
Kool! I'm riding the Acela Express next week hopefully, Is there any to get Internet Access on the Acela Express? I'm taking my webcam and laptop with me.
Use a wireless connection, or, using a laptop, dial up the internet on a modem and cellphone.
Amtrak also offers Railfone, but it's not cheap.
Thats been buggin me, How do you use a Cellphone to connect to the internet with a laptop?
Hopefully someone with more in-depth knowledge than myself will reply, but the essence of it is that you can connect a special adapter cable from the modem in your laptop to either the headset connector or a special port on some cell phones. Then all you do is dial up the internet from the laptop and it makes a cell phone call to your ISP. Not very reliable on a moving train but it does work. A wireless modem is more reliable but not by much - the main problems with either type of connection are the handoff from one cell site to another and the fluctuation in signal strength as you are moving.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>Flaunted as the pride of the Pakistan Railways upon
arrival at the Karachi port a few days ago, it turns out
the Chinese-built rail carriages are of larger width than
our existing platforms can take. <<
from >>http://www.dawn.com/2002/08/12/ed.htm#2<<
they bought Chinese cars which apparently don't fit the platforms. yee hee
Oh boy. Keep us posted as to how this turns out. Better not start any wars...
--Brian
Time for the TA to share "gap filler technology" for a price. :)
I think the opposite is the problem. They are TOO wide...
--Brian
So you do an "astoria el" on the platforms (which they apparently did) and use gap fillers so the IRT cars can use it too. Been done. :)
So the platforms have been shaved and the standard (narrower) cars have a gap. Gap filler technology to the rescue. Of course Al Qaeda may be required to fill in a non-disclosure form.
Sorry, I didn't read the linked story...stupid me.
--Brian
Not to worry, there will be no beatings from this quadrant. Some of us have better things to do than follow EVERY post, thread and link. However it WOULD be nice if I ever had the time to take in EVERYTHING here. :)
At least there's more chance of that at the moment - SubTalk seems less busy this week. I suppose people have gone on vacation etc...
Heh. As Arnie Schwartzenegger would say, "they'll be BACK." Enjoy the ride while you can and please don't put your feet up on the seats. :)
A conductor, tired of his job, gave it up to become a policeman. Several months later, a friend asked him how he liked his new role.
"Well," he replied, "the pay is good and the hours aren't bad, but what I like best is that the customer is always wrong."
Heh. As Arnie Schwartzenegger would say, "they'll be BACK."
I sure hope so (although it's nice to have time to read a few posts on BusTalk too).
AHA! One of those British Latex Tire freaks, EH? Got you DEAD to rights. Now what's all this then? Stiffy for tires, eh? Well, we'll soon have you cured .... bring out your dead ... :)
I didn't expect a kinda Spanish Inquisition.
(You surely know my order of preference by now: 1 train, 2 trolley, 3 trackless trolley, 4 motor bus)
I didn't expect a kinda Spanish Inquisition.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
(Somebody had to say it!)
Mark
LOL, well quite. Next we'll be playing charades in the Old Bailey.
Don't get saucy with me, Bernaise!
Our METHODS are five (no, three sir) ... and now ... the COMFY seat! Why? Motorpersons prefer a comfy snooze and not something that drops down under their arse from the bulkhead to surprise them from behind. Not the British way as the band "Gong" would say. :)
Seriously though - the old cars had a "bench seat" that dropped down from the bulkhead. For those into "weighlifting" it was the worst of the worst of the old bench-pressing things - steel with rotted padding only 1/3 the length) ... when I got into the cab of an R143 and sat and pulled handle, it was like sitting in a damned La-Z-boy! DAMN comfy. I figured I could nod out after two stops in THAT thing. Heh.
(You surely know my order of preference by now: 1 train, 2 trolley, 3 trackless trolley, 4 motor bus)
Want tea & crumpets on the trolley?
No no no no ... not PROPERLY British ... he'll have spam, eggs, bacon and spam, spam spam spam spam spam spam and then a dead parrot. :0
LMAO!!! No, I'll have a black coffee with two sugars and a KitKat, like I have every time I ride B'ham SH - Marylebone. Nothing like being predictable - just like the trains - it's one of only two lines in the UK which runs over 90% on time (the other is the Isle of Wight).
It's much better than that lousy B'ham NS - Eusless line where you have to get out of your seat and walk to the buffet car (that is if your train turns up, which is always a surprise on that line)!
Well, since you FREAKING EUROS are half a decade behind the gigundo-importante United Freaking State of *US* ... whoops, better drop the game ... you're a BRIT and *KNOW* unlike *ANY* of us twits over here about our own dirty little secret ... now go ahead, we're ON to the conspiracy, at least the FEW of us who actually pay ATTENTION ...
That our SHRUB is a descendent (and RELATIVE) of the Windsors and thus, BRITISH ROYALTY who hath taken over our government and turned it back over to the crown, whose wisdom spaketh, "what's all THIS then? Cast it off ... no lollygagging in the tubes or we'll thrash you." ("DINSDALE! DINSDALE!") But it's amusing how FEW Americans realize where our Shrub came from. Why we'll be back in the Empire before a fortnight and too freaking bad, you're FAMILY and YOU *MUST* take us in even if our knickers and nappies are soiled. Moo. :)
Anyhoo ... don't bring up "Marleybone" ... it has bad connotations in Brooklyn ("Malbone") and would only result in our own BMTman getting a rip-roaring STIFFY and we all know that such is fit for neither man nor beast. So there ... go bollocks the couple next door and have a nice day. :)
LMAO re shrubs!
Anyhoo ... don't bring up "Marleybone" ... it has bad connotations in Brooklyn ("Malbone")
Shame. Marylebone is one of the nicest London terminals - it's even got a pub in it! Hopefully there'll be more platforms soon - platforms 5 & 6 should finally open in October 2003 - they've only been planned for 103 years. Sadly, platforms 7-10 seem a long way off. If you look at the plans on the Chiltern Railway's website, there are more bonuses in store:
http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/pages/misc/map01.html
Oxford via High Wycombe has been needed for some time now. The bad bit of the plan is what they want to do to the GCR Main Line - okay it'd be opened to just North of Rugby, but Rugby Central station wouldn't re-open, plus it wouldn't quite reach Leicester (which is a really lovely city - well worth visiting). I might well write to the Chiltern Railway suggesting they add Rugby Central and Leicester Central to their plans.
Indeed they seem to want to reach Leicester from their blurb:
http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/pages/misc/factsheet.html
I'll leave you with a picture of my gateway to London, not to be confused with a silly tight curve in Brooklyn ;-)
http://home.t-online.de/home/John.Seit/lonmaryl.jpg
Well SHEET ... any stop that's got Watney's as well as more respectable suds such as Bass and Porter's is the kind of place I'd drop my brake handle ANYTIME.
As to the photos, NICE stuff ... will need to revisit, been awake for 26 hours and I've been noting the absence of, or excess of typed characters, so I think I really need to get some of that sleep I promised myself back at SUNRISE, US Eastern time. Whoops. :)
Stopped in Hope, NJ Village liquors where Pennsylvaniers go to smuggle adult beverages into their state on Sunday. Needed beer, asked for Watneys Ale....we're New Yorkers....they drink 'flavoured suds.' As for the time, it is always in GMT. WWV...Fort Collins, Colorado...TMC GPT-10K running 3.5 KW AME. CI Peter
Yeah, that floored me ... when I want a beer, I want it NOW. Connecticut also has some silliness about beers, that's why I heart New York. And that pesky 4 am curfew is taken care of in our company bar. We have to throw out any outsiders, but it stays open all night for US. :)
That's why I prefer to ride the bar car. Airlines are too paranoid.
is it true that they BLOCK OFF THE first 2 cars of the MU type trains
on all metro north ( no riding in da' front car ) ?????
bummer, - no railfan-window !!...???.........!
Depends on the load I guess. Well..........look out the back
any body else out there with the true answer ??
....lol ...!!
"is it true that they BLOCK OFF THE first 2 cars of the MU type trains"
Yes and no.
During peak hours, I don't ever recall cars in a set being closed off for other than mechanical reasons.
However, during off-peak hours, the train set is often lightly loaded; there are far more seats available than passengers. In this case, MNRR may close one or more pairs (typically) on the outbound end of the train.
So even during off-peak hours, you can ride up front inbound, assuming the engineer doesn't have the door open blocking the view.
Its a lot of fun racing through the Park Avenue tunnel and then entering the yard at Grand Central, hoping you don't wind up bottom shelf.
MATT-2AV
*Why* does MNRR do this? What's wrong with letting people travelling off-peak spread themselves out if they want to? Is it for safety reasons? Or do they do it just because they always have (8-) ?
So that they can cut back on the number of conductors, of course.
So that they can cut back on the staff, of course.
I was just wondering if anyone else has tried putting R68A_5200's excellent R142 or R142A on Ernie Alston's 7 Flushing Line in BVE? I just tried it after seeing a link to the former site in one of Selkirk TMO's posts. It worked well, just one quick change to the .Rw file and I was off. I found the cars easier to drive, but harder to keep on schedule. I'll have to try some R68s or R143s now.
I *love* the 142's as substitutes on other lines - the 143's run a bit funny on some of Marrero's work, but there's nothing I love more than whipping 68's onto some of the lines. When you do an accidental dump as you go to overshoot (brakes are tricky) then you might as well go for a walk while you wait for the sucker to charge back up again and you're more than 5 minutes late.
Just like the real thing. :)
While doing some shopping today in chinatown. Stop by the old antigue shop on Elizabeth Street. Look through the shop for an hour found couple of old age chinese antigue and seven old subway maps dated back in Fall 1980, 1992, Aug 1994, Oct 1989, Fall 1983, and 1988 and June 1993. Since I don't have a scanner. I'm gonna share with u guys.
The Fall 1980 was a Individual route strip maps with
JFK Express line colored in sky blue runs from 57/6th Ave to Howard beach switch from 6th Ave to 8th Ave at west 4;
B D run via NorthSide MannyB and N diamond QB run via southside mannyB; AA runs local from 168St to WTC; CC runs local from Broxn to Rockaway Park; M runs to Stillwell via Brighton Line, N run to forest hill while circle RR runs to astoria and diamond RR runs chamber to bayridge via nassau line; 2 terminate at newlot; 4 5 terminate at utica; diamond QB and M run local in Brighton:
The 1992 Map was a multilanguage version with diamond R run to 179 and a list of subway lines that operates at night only.
The 1988 Map was a Individual route strip maps with R runs to 179 fulltime and a Service changes chart.
The June 1993 and Aug 1994 are the same except that 1994 was multilanguage version with H became S.
The fall 1983 map are same as fall 1980 version
Oct 1989 are also a a Individual route strip maps but different from 1980 and 1983 by the double letters lines became a single letter lines and has the chart with the notice of the opening 63rd street stations.
GG is G
LL is L
diamond CC became circle C
AA is eliminated
The asking price of ALL of those seven old maps is $7 ($1 each). I ask the guy for great deal and walkaway with $3.00 saving from the purchase. The condition of those maps are fair but little bit dirty.
wow, that was an amazing deal
lucky.....
Wait! There is also some 1996 version.
GO THERE and Ask him if have still have other old subway map. Maybe you will have a luck
I don't suppose any maps are left there? I'd love to go pick up a few
out of curiosity, how much did they cost?
Well, I found them on the old chinese antique shop from the pile of chinese books and road atlas. The guy told me that he kept some subway from the past and that all he had kept. The asking price on those map was a dollar each. Since I only found 7 old version with different dates and I told him I'll buy all of them. At first, he ask for $7 for all 7 maps. I asked for great deal. And He had decided to charge me $4.00 for all 7 maps since I help purchase $40.00 worth of merchandise
The shops is located on Elizabeth St between Hester Street and Grand Street. The only old version was left was the 1998 1999. If you want the older version! SORRY, I GOT THEM ALL
Damn.... I'm collecting NY subway/bus stuff from all around and this really got me...
The oldest thing I got is a Manhattan bus map from 1991.
Then Check out any old antique shop or tag sales. I probably sure some places are still selling old map.
Oh... I got a 1964 World's Fair subway map, and many from the 70s. and 80s
I remember my uncle had an old pre-merger map in color.
Elias
I was lucky enough to get a set of 1948 Hagstrom's BOT subway maps at Shoreline back in 1986. Somehow I managed to roll them up, stuff 'em into my suitcase, and get them home to Denver without mangling them. I framed each one and they now hang prominently on one wall in my bedroom.
>>>Oct 1989 are also a a Individual route strip maps but different from 1980 and 1983 by the double letters lines became a single letter lines and has the chart with the notice of the opening 63rd street stations.<<<
Oct 1989 map also show B, Q, and JFK Express runs via 63rd Street and terminate at 21St Queensbrige. And R runs fulltime to/from 179.
I collect maps myself. The oldest map I have is a mint-condition 1972 subway map which had the (8) 3rd Ave Local, (SS) Culver/Bowling Green Shuttles, (QJ) and (KK) service to 168 Street-Jamaica Ave, and (5) and (6) trains terminated at South Ferry late nights and weekends. But the jewel of this map is what's indicated below "Broad Channel":
EXTRA FARE COLLECTED BEYOND THIS POINT
I have that map! I got it when I was helping a friend clean out his grandmother's attic a few years back. I asked him if I could have it, and he said sure, as he was going to throw it out anyway. (Can you imagine how much of this kind of thing is just thrown out). It's a very confusing looking map, as each route has a different color, and there are a buch of green "SS" routes on it.
Looking at those old maps just reminded me as child grew up in NYC. I remember riding JFK Express Train with mah mom watching the conductor collecting extra fare.
Hi there.
I just sent in my resume to become an assistant conductor on the LIRR. And I was wondering, what does the job entail? And where can I go (other than a message board) for more infromation about the hours involved, the pay, and what an average day is like?
-Merelis
IIRC, somebody posted last year the path of becomming a LIRR conductor. You attend rules class ON YOUR TIME Saturday mornings for about a month. If you pass the test, you are then accepted into employment.
Michael
IIRC, somebody posted last year the path of becomming a LIRR conductor
>
How do I get to the posting you mentioned?
Usually they don't hire "off the street." But lately they have been advertising the job, so maybe you have a better shot now. Most people who have gotten the job have worked elsewhere in the railroad first. Station cleaner is a good prior job, and then after a year, you have a better shot when you "put in your letter" (resume).
I know several who have gotten the job, most recently a woman school bus driver. The tests are tough. The FRA tests are tougher.
You will usually begin on the extra board as a collector. This job entails bouncing from train to train (on a schedule, of course) to help the regular crew collect tickets at rush hour. You can do a lot of back and forth--like Penn to Hempstead to Brooklyn to Jamaica to Penn to Jamaica and back to Penn, etc.
You will always begin and end at the same location--examples, Penn, Brooklyn, West Side Yard, Babylon, Far Rock, etc. A lot of guys hate the Far Rock jobs because you may have to park your car there and wonder if it will be there when you're done. So it's low priority.
When you get enough seniority, you can pick a better collector's job and eventually get on a regular crew as brakeman (assistant conductor). When this happens you will travel with the same engineer and full conductor the entire day--same runs for the full five day week.
You get generous benefits, but if you are sick, you have to show up and report sick after checking in. You better be near death in the hospital if you call in instead of show up. If there is an exigency you may have to take an extra run at the end of the day when you thought you were going home. If you don't do this, you have a "failure of service." Three of these in one year and you may be looking for a job slicing balogna in a deli.
You need about 15 years in to order to begin to get a kind of run (terminal, hours, line) you really want.
But if you want a railroader's life ... I put in my resume years ago but was never called.
Good luck!
yea both LIRR and MNR need Assistant Conductor. im gonna try for it once i get senority as a Trackworker. i really prefer engineer tho, and thats what i will do once it opens up
Good luck! There are fewer engineer jobs than any other, obviously.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=425&e=3&cid=425&u=/nypost/20020812/lo_nypost/cops_are_swatting_subway___145_swipers_
--Brian
Interesting to see...
Given the story, are they ever going to stop this crime?
I've seen this being done but couldn't figure out why. Now I understand.
Michael
Washington, DC
Its done because the MTA has such piss poor customer service. In any busy station, 2 MVM's will be out of order and a 3rd will eat your money and not give you a ticket.
>>>In any busy station, 2 MVM's will be out of order and a 3rd will eat your money and not give you a ticket. <<<
That is just plain wrong.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sadly, I think his whole stance ACCURATELY reflects the morals of the laissez fairy these days - after all, as Leona Helmsley once said, "only the LITTLE PEOPLE pay taxes." Sorry for my flippance, but Ken Lay and Dick Cheney are STILL on the lamb. Slap them in jail and maybe I'll change my tune. I think Jersey Mike is spouting the REALITY of these times and doing so accurately. Damned shame though.
STEALING is *in* ... "bigtime" ...
UUMM, I was saying that his statment about MVMs not working was incorrect.
Peace,
ANDEE
Whoops. There I go with my "bigger picture" silliness. Please ignore that cranky old man behind the curtains, watch the disappearing doors, please. :)
lol
No, its the Penn Station 1/2/3/9 station last time I was there.
Unless it was yesterday I don't want to hear it.
Peace,
ANDEE
YOU implied that, here's a qoute, >>>In any busy station...<<< you DID NOT specify any one station. Thereby I stand by my accusation.
GAWD... you are SUCH a weasel. IMO
Peace,
ANDEE
hes right... MVMs work about half of the time(though the ones at 51st st seem to be superior to the rest- i use that station alot, and have never had an MVM problem)
The ones at less populated stations are probably problemless. Ever since they came out, at Bay Parkway, I've used them and have never had a problem.
I've used MVM's many dozens of times and only one has ever failed on me. (I think the MetroCard slot was blocked. It didn't charge my credit card, so I didn't lose anything other than a few minutes.) What gives you the idea that "MVMs work about half of the time"?
I've never had a problem with an MVM using plastic. I have run into some that are very picky about using cash, or that just wouldn't even accept any bills. Still, in my experience half the time would be a gross exaggeration -- even considering the cash transactions only.
I did have a problem with one of the new LIRR machines which simply would not read my credit card -- those machines are very similar to the MVM's.
CG
At last check, NYCT's MVMs already in service (as opposed to those working out "teething pains") operated at 11,000 MCBF (Mean Cycles Between Failures). That's an industry-wide record for such complex machines. MVMs are subjected to a great deal of vandalism, but they don't fail very often on their own.
David
Whereas on the LIRR 1 in 5 transactions has a problem, even with the new machines. I've seen it with my own eyes.
>>Whereas on the LIRR 1 in 5 transactions has a problem, even with the new machines. I've seen it with my own eyes.<<
I made over a dozen tranactions over a period of time for a round trip ticket/Metrocard and never had one foulup.
Bill "Newkirk"
MVM Tech 101: What is a dollar bill?
We recognise the dollar bill as a piece of paper negotiable for one dollars worth of exchange. The MVM is not human...recognition of a note is in two parts. The first is reading...bills are printed with a twelve color metallic ink that an ordinary magnetic tape head(like from a cassette recorder)that can be read as a pattern. The second is timing/legnth...a bill must pass a test of how long it takes from start to finish. Any trash/debris/sticky crap inserted beforehand interferes with the Dollar Bill Acceptors definition of a negotiable note. CI Peter
Have been using MVM's for over 2 years never had a problem.
The MVM has even been able to read my shaby credit card while most store credit card readers sometimes have problems
I must disagree. I have seen many machines serviced and then crash again right after the maintainer leaves. I have seen established machines down for days as well as machines go haywire such as falling back to a DOS type prompt or displaying BIOS info.
The heat is also causing MVM problems as voltage dips and surges --machines just lock up.
I got my information from NYCT's Department of Metrocard Operations. If there's a disagreement here, it's with the facts as provided by the people who have them, not with me.
David
We are both right. System wide might be as you say but there are problem lines or problems with certain environmental conditions.
Let's say you are in school doing poorly-- your test scores 40,40,100.
The mode or most common figure is 40 and the mean or average is 60. Put it another way--- your scores are 80,80, and 20. In spite of the two 80 scores you still havbe a failing average of 60.
Statistics can be skewed. I'd be interestedf in seeing statistics from best to worst and on type of installation-- el, indoor, outdoor mild climatic conditions, extreme cimatic conditions et
I work as a lunch relief on the L line with a side trip to Broadway-Lafayette on weekends. I see the same machines down each day. I have seen MVMs being serviced only to fail again right after the maintainer leaves. I have also seen strange screens such as text s=creens showing the BIOS and windows boot menu only never to get past the menu.
Loose chips sink ships...and video games and MVMs. Every MVM should have its own UPS...my digital answering machine is glitching in the Upper East Side because of power switchovers. CI Peter
Thank you! The biggest problem is quality of phone and electric lines. Many MVMs take cash only and do not display a message until after a customer tries to buy a card with plastic and then the MVM goes into a long wait loop before telling them to try again or cancel. Many get angry and I tell them their card has not been charged. I say we are sorry and suggest they use an ATM to get the cash they get even angrier.
The MVM still wont display a message advising of cash only and the nextthe same delay before the try again message.
In one station, they were down for a week. I asked a maintainer and was told temperature was a problem and "they" (the magical "they") know about it and iut is Cubic's problem.
"They" bought a piece of junk but it keeps us in a job.
The main problem w/ the MVM is that it takes 30-60 seconds for each transaction. And then you get people who pay w/ credit cards or a bag of nickles. And then you have the problem of the MVM's bill acceptor being stuffed up or just simply out of Metrocards or change.
A subway swiper transaction takes 5-10 seconds and the swiper accepts bills in even the most soiled and ratty conditions. For a single ride a swiper is far better than an MVM. Plus there's less litter from single use metrocards.
at jamaica center usually 1 of 4 MVMS are working, at 88th/cpw the machine works very rarely(i consider working as accepting bills able to dispense metro cards and single rides) I think that if there is no booth and the MVMS dont work, that entry should be free
I use the one at 88th and CPW frequently and I've never had a problem, but I always pay by credit card. (Why not earn rebates, let my money sit in the bank a bit longer, and not have to deal with the hassle of cash if I can help it?)
I agree that if there's no way to buy a fare at least with cash at the station, entry should be free. As you know, there's another entrance at 86th, with its own set of MVM's and with a booth. What exists now at 88th is better than what existed there a few years ago (either a token-only iron maiden or an exit-only HET, I don't remember) and is better than what exists a few blocks over at 88th and Broadway (nothing at all). If you don't like it, go to 86th.
I have to admit, in my year of using the MVMs, they've never given me a ticket either.
Doubtful, I would think to completly stop it they would have to have a cop at all open entrances 24/7. Something I don't think they are going to do anytime soon.
Peace,
ANDEE
Given a system as big and as busy as NYCs, to keep an eye on everything is difficult.
Well, a Metrocard basically records ur trips too, why not program it to red flag if u swipe at a station X amount of times in a given time frame?
Wqas to get around everything, but this may significantly make it more difficult to scam this way
True, but that change in programming may be something the TA is unable or unwilling to do.
Peace,
ANDEE
TA won't touch the program, it pays the vendor to make changes.
>>> why not program it to red flag if u swipe at a station X amount of times in a given time frame? <<<
And what would you do with the information? Send flying squads of police to try and arrest the swipers? This is a low level crime which will never be completely stopped and although some enforcement effort is necessary to keep honest people honest, it is not worth a great deal of time and effort to completely eliminate it. Arrests will continue to be made by plainclothes cops observing the swipers in action.
Tom
Or citizens thoughtful enough, and protective enough of each other, to document and report it.
Since I don't know what else he does there that could be harmful to people, I would not hesitate to have him arrested.
In fact, I did that once, at the MARTA (Atlanta) Decatur Station. As soon as I had passed through the station, I used an emergency phone to bring police to the station. They picked him up.
So I guess you enjoy subway congestion. Every person a swiper serves is a person NOT in line ahead of you. Before you form an opinion try identifying what your own best interest is and then act on it.
"So I guess you enjoy subway congestion."
I enjoy subway criminals less.
"Every person a swiper serves is a person NOT in line ahead of you."
Yes, and the sky is blue.
"Before you form an opinion try identifying what your own best interest is and then act on it."
I did. I helped remove a scum sucking dirtbag from the subway. Maybe you should follow your own advice once in a while.
what would you say about someone who swipes people in but doesn't charge at all?
That person is reducing the revenue that MTA would collect from those passengers, and misleading them at the same time (and it's still stealing from everyone who does pay his/her fare). And doing all opf this without any legitimate authority.
With all of the zillions of legitimate ways that one can be creative, earn money, seek happiness, etc. it isn't necessary to be an asshole. That's why I not only don't condone it, but also feel no guilt about helping to stop it.
I would rather give my money to a swiper than to the MTA. I hate the MTA. The less money the MTA has the fewer non-railfan window equipped cars it can buy and the fewer US&S Co. switches and signals it can replace and the fewer towers it can automate. Not only that I feel good about helping a poor person w/o giving them a handout. It is in my best interest to patronize a swiper than to stand in line at an MVM or booth.
What about on buses, two people cound technically use one fun pass to get to a place serviced by many buses like Bay Plaza.
Or some people let those without exact change use their unlimited to pay their fare and the drivers have NO problem with this (I seen this happen once, but apparently 18 minutes didn't pass yet, but the person did get change from someone else).
you really are the consumate idiot.
Peace,
ANDEE
So now the poor are scum and dirtbags? He's an entrepreneur in the purest sence of the word. He's not robbing people. He's not putting a gun to their head. Nobody is being defrauded. The fact that he can make 800$ a week shows that there is a DEMAND for the service he is providing. The MTA is using its thug force to brutally supress competition so it can maintain its monopoly instead of actually providing the service that would drive these guys out of bussiness. What do you want this guy to go in the current economic environment? Go on welfare? Get food at a soup kitchen? Take a menial lo-paying job to swell the unskilled workforce so you can get your car washed for $5 and a big mac for $2?
We should be rewarding people for using their brains and providing needed services. Not throwing them in jail.
"So now the poor are scum and dirtbags?"
Most poor people don't steal from the transit authority (that is, the taxpayers), the IRS or from you and me.
"He's an entrepreneur in the purest sence of the word. He's not robbing people. He's not putting a gun to their head. Nobody is being defrauded."
The people at Enron didn't use guns to rob people either. But they looted the treasury belonging to all the shareholders.
We, the taxpayers, are being defrauded by the card swipers. We are being defrauded the same as if someone refuses to pay taxes and signs up for welfare on bogus grounds. The fact that you don't mind being cheated does not mean I waive my right to have the district attorney represent me and other law-abiding taxpayers in court to stop the swiper.
"What do you want this guy to go in the current economic environment? Go on welfare? Get food at a soup kitchen? Take a menial lo-paying job to swell the unskilled workforce so you can get your car washed for $5 and a big mac for $2? "
It doesn't say anywhere in the Constitution that anybody is "entitled" to $800 per week. And if you're really smart you would also realize that you can actually get rich even working at a McDonalds - if you know how to climb a ladder or run a franchise. If this guy is as smart as you think he is, he can go in the phonecard business (wide open opportunity, and you can gross $1.5 million a year with pretty decent profit margins if you work hard), or he can stick with the food business (a guy I know of started by cleaning Burger King bathrooms and now runs 10 restaurants) or even get a McDonald's franchise (one restaurant, run really well, can make you a millionaire).
"He's an entrepreneur in the purest sence (sic) of the word."
So are contract murderers. They fill a market demand not met by others.
I have used swipers a couple of times when passing through NYC. When you only need a single ride a swiper is faster and easier to use than a token clerk or a vending machine. If the MTA wants to stop the swipers then eliminate lines at TVM's and token booths.
The TA should wise up, inform the public that using these clowns will result in them getting a ticket. It will stop real fast.
Peace,
ANDEE
What offense would the swipee be ticketed for? They bought their
token. Has any of this been tested in the courts? I recall there
was some case about a time-based metrocard being used by multiple members of
a family.
Any time differential pricing is introduced there is going to be
an opportunity for activity that can either be called fraud or
business depending on your point of view. Let's perform a
thought experiment: what if the swipers, instead of using an array
of time-based metrocards, simply bought usage-based cards but
took advantage of the volume discount. They would make $1.50
for every 11 "customers". Would that be fraud?
"Let's perform a
thought experiment: what if the swipers, instead of using an array
of time-based metrocards, simply bought usage-based cards but
took advantage of the volume discount. They would make $1.50
for every 11 "customers". Would that be fraud?"
It would be if the purchaser is not entitled to resell the card that way by the contract rules governing the original sale. Recall how ticket scalping works: I buy a ticket for a concert, let's say N'Sync or Bruce Springsteen or some other hot-demand artist. I paid $100 each, but I wait near the gate of the stadium or performance hall and offer it to people for $1,000 per ticket. In some places that's illegal, or at least it is a breach of contract on my part: the retailer (Ticketmaster, for instance) could sue me for damages.
Exactly. Any time people pay different prices for an identical
product or service, there is an opportunity for profit. In the
case of ticket scalping, there are other considerations in that
the scalpers can hoard tickets and thus inflate the prices.
Subway rides are not that way.
The terms and conditions of the sale should be clearly stated.
Either the back of the Metrocard should have it in fine print,
or a sign placed at the booth or MVM should spell out the policy.
The terms and conditions of the sale should be clearly stated.
The TA doesn't go out of their way to publish the rules. However, you can read them here. The particular part you want is 21 NYCRR 1050.4.
Exactly. Any time people pay different prices for an identical
product or service, there is an opportunity for profit.
It is called an Arbitrage situation. In the stock market this is how program trading tries to make money. Arbitrage presents an oppurtunity to make infinite profit and dosen't even require capital to exploit as you simply short the expensive one and go long in the cheap one. A perfectly efficient market has a single price for a single good. The stock market is nearly perfectly efficient as Arbitrage oppurtinities vanish in seconds as the price levels self correct throuh market forces. Many laws against re-sale enforce an inefficient market outcome and should not be part of a rational legal system.
When you see queues, lines the market system has failed. The best way to combat scaplers is to do that the producers of The Producers did. They reserved some "night of purchase" tickets to be sold at the door for like $500.
If your event's tickets sell out in like 5 minutes, you need to raise prices. Keep raising prices until you don't sell out, then lower them slightly to the point where the market fully clears.
Lines are for communists. Scaplers are for capitalists.
I'm reluctant to make this statement because of the possible
off-topic consequences, but public transit is a communist (or
at least a socialist) system.
You shouldn't be reluctant to make any comment you want. This is America.
America is not a purely capitalistic country. It is more mercantilistic (based on capitalism but regulated) to provide as much as possible equal opportunity to all and some safety net for the weaker among us. Additionally, since some things like air pollution are imperfectly valued, having subsidized activities (like mass transit) to counter it is not necessarily anti-capitalistic.
Many years ago when tokens were still used on the Triborough Bridge - some people would buy them at a volume discount and then re-sell them on the approach to the toll plaza for the amount of the toll. From what I had heard the TBTA actually allowed this practice - in any event it was done openly and in full view of police.
Any time differential pricing is introduced there is going to be an opportunity for activity that can either be called fraud or business depending on your point of view.
The MTA used to practice "business" in a reverse manner. The LIRR's 9:26 out of Great Neck used to be scheduled to arrive at Penn Sta at 9:59 - making it a Peak fare train, by 1 minute. They accomplished this by making its scheduled running time between Woodside to Penn Sta to be 10 minutes. All other peak trains were scheduled to take 12 minutes between these two stations. I had never known that train to arrive before 10 AM.
>>> What offense would the swipee be ticketed for? They bought their token. <<<
The swipee could be charged on a conspiricy theory, since he is helping the swiper perform an illegal act. Most likely a specific ordinance would be passed making it illegal to purchase a swipe from anyone not authorized by the TA.
Suppose someone steals a bunch of airline tickets. If you knowingly purchased one from him, even if you paid the retail price you would be guilty of a crime. Since the Fun Pass the swiper is using to swipe you in was sold as a license for him to travel on the subway, your unauthorized use of it is similar to using a stolen ticket.
Tom
Conspiracy by definition requires three people.
Your example of airline tickets misses the point. If the
swipee has gone to the token booth and purchased a token,
but instead of putting the token in the slot, hands it to
someone and accepts their swipe, the swipee has in fact
paid the fare to the MTA. If the swipee gives the swiper
cash, you'd have to show that the swipee knowlingly accepted
stolen service. Perhaps the swiper has purchased a per-ride
metrocard and is simply making a profit from the volume discount.
I personally dislike the time-based metrocard because it introduces
so many paradoxes. Also, it is unfair to people who work a PM
shift, since when you buy, e.g., a 1-day metrocard "fun pass",
you do not in fact get 24 hours worth of use out of it because
of the midnight expiration.
>>> Conspiracy by definition requires three people. <<<
You are mistaken. The legal definition of conspiracy is "An agreement between two or more persons to commit a criminal act". Those forming the conspiracy are called conspirators.
>>> If the swipee has gone to the token booth and purchased a token, but instead of putting the token in the slot, hands it to someone and accepts their swipe, the swipee has in fact paid the fare to the MTA. <<<
When a person purchases a token from the token booth he is not paying the fare. He is obtaining a coin which is good for one ride on the subway. The fare is not paid until he deposits the token into the turnstile. If he gives it to the swiper, he helps the swiper convert his Fun Pass from a license for one person to ride for a limited period of time (until 3:00 A.M.) to x rides (x = the number of tokens he collects) which can be used anytime. By his use of the Fun Pass to swipe in various riders every eighteen minutes, the swiper is defrauding the MTA, and anyone knowingly helping him do so is conspiring with him to commit the fraud.
>>> I personally dislike the time-based metrocard because it introduces so many paradoxes. Also, it is unfair to people who work a PM shift, since when you buy, e.g., a 1-day metrocard "fun pass", you do not in fact get 24 hours worth of use out of it because of the midnight expiration. <<<
What paradoxes does the Fun Pass introduce? Certainly no more than a monthly unlimited pass which might be purchased on either the 1st day of the month or the 15th day of the month. Actually the Fun Pass expires at 3:00 A.M. on the day following purchase, so someone buying one at 12:01 A.M. has more than 24 hours use. I do not see how it is unfair to those on a P.M. shift. The main purpose of the Fun Pass is for a tourist, or someone who is making several trips in one day, but does not use transit often enough to purchase a monthly unlimited pass.
Tom
If I purchase a one-day pass at 10:00 PM, I get 5 hours of use,
not 24. Actually, I believe I get 4:18, because the pass expires
at 02:18, not 03:00, but I'd defer to someone in stations on that.
Similarly, if I buy a weekly pass and first swipe it at 11:50 PM,
I get only 6 days and change worth of use. However, if I wait 10
more minutes, I get an extra day. That doesn't make sense.
In fact, the whole notion of granting a time-limited license for
unlimited use the transit system doesn't make any sense, except
that it is a plus to passengers when there is a delay and they
can avoid the hassle of getting a block ticket.
>>> If I purchase a one-day pass at 10:00 PM, I get 5 hours of use, not 24. <<<
I am sure the number of one-day passes sold between 10:00 P.M. and midnight are far lower than the number sold during the morning hours. But even the purchaser who buys the one-day pass after 10:00 P.M. has a bargain if he knows he will be taking the subway at least three times before the pass expires.
>>> In fact, the whole notion of granting a time-limited license for unlimited use the transit system doesn't make any sense <<<
It doesn't make sense to whom? Day passes all over the world encourage tourists to travel on public transit systems. Much of the tourist travel is done in non rush hour times, so day passes promote tourism and bring in additional revenue to the transit system which it might not have had, without extra expense.
Monthly passes are helpful to the transit dependent, in that they make using the transit system more like owning a car in that each individual trip does not require an outlay of funds, and the passes bring in assured income to the transit system each month. In modest income neighborhoods without monthly passes there would probably be fluctuations of usage of the system before and after pay days. The smoothing out of these fluctuations is beneficial to the system for overall customer satisfaction.
Tom
I was using the funpass as an example because it more clearly
illustrates the time paradox. Obviously it is aimed towards tourists,
though I know regular commuters who buy per-use metrocards but
also keep a few 1-day cards around for those days when they expect
to make 3 or more trips.
The socio-economic impact of Metrocard would be an interesting
study. The elimination of 2-fare zones was in effect a fare
rollback for a lot of passengers. It isn't clear how distance
from the subway correlates with income. In Queens, _most_
of the wealthier neighborhoods are in 2-fare zones. As for time-based
fare cards, would someone of limited means necessarily have
the cash every month to outlay on a monthly pass, especially since
a change in employment status (e.g. temp workers) could ruin that
investment? Also, is the pass transferrable, legally?
>>> Also, is the pass transferrable, legally? <<<
Based on previous discussions on this board, I believe the passes are transferable. You could legally give your pass to someone else to use as you left a station. It would not be legal to enter a station and give the pass to someone else to use at the same time you are riding on the system. In the first instance you are transferring the licence to ride to someone else and no more than one person at a time will be riding on that pass. In the second instance you are abusing the licence by remaining on the system after transferring the licence to someone else. Therefore it becomes possible for more than one person at a time to be riding on the system on the one pass, which is the basic problem with selling swipes.
Tom
Yesterday evening, I found an almost-but-not-quite expired 30-day unlimited lying around in my station. I claimed it and used it twice, I was planning on handing it to a random entering passenger on my way out of the system at 11:30 (30 minutes before expiration), but I forgot. All perfectly legal, AFAIK.
There is another way to use Metrocards to try to benefit yourself without actually riding.
Suppose you and your friends want more service to a particular station. You could take your unlimited Metrocards, and stand at the turnstiles swiping them all day long, to inflate the ridership tally at that station.
Assuming MTA relies on that and not employee "people counters."
SHAME on you ... do you realize what you've just DONE?!?!?!
Now we're NEVER going to get BMTman off the damned Franklin Avenue shuttle. :)
I find the apparent hostility to Funpasses expressed by some Subtalkers puzzling. Their usefulness is pretty obvious -- tourists are often in town for only one or two days, want to get around all the sights, and don't want to pay for each individual trip. Some people (at least) have some common sense and won't pay out for a ticket that they won't get good value from. So, on the first of my recent visits to NY, my wife and I ate dinner in Greenwich Village and then nneded to travel back to midtown to our hotel at maybe 11 p.m. Did we buy Funpasses? Of course not, we bought tokens. But then the next trip, when I went off on my railfanning day I bought a Funpass.
Many major, public transportation-oriented cities have unlimited one-day tickets available. My son as a student in Edinburgh used them regularly -- if he had classes at different Edinburgh University locations on the same day, he might need to use 3-4 buses in the course of the day, so the one-day pass was cheaper. A weekly or monthly wouldn't have made as much sense for him, because he wouldn't necessarily need to do this every day. [Shame there isn't rail rapid transit in Edinburgh, but the bus system is efficient.]
If you travel more than 5 days a week ($3.00 a day) you could use a weekly unlimited and save some money (not much around 1-2 dollars).
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
In order for one-week pass to be the best value, you have to ride around 17 times in a seven day period, so long as you ride for more than 4 days that week and ride around at least twice in each of 6 days (5 if you won't be doing any riding for a while) or ride around at least three times a day for 5 days.
Why would you buy a Fun Pass at 10PM the day it's valid?
Anyone dumb enough to do that deserves to be shortchanged.
You're missing his point.
Someone who's doing a lot of traveling during the 27 hours between midnight on one day and 3am on the next can get by on $4. Someone who's doing a lot of traveling during the 27 hours between, say, 5pm on one day and 8pm on the next has to spend $8 for the same amount of travel over the same duration of time. I'm going to get bitten by that this weekend -- I'll be going railfanning Saturday night and Sunday morning/afternoon.
A factual correction: the clock on the unlimited cards starts ticking when they're first used, not when they're purchased. I have three Fun Passes in my wallet; I buy them in advance when there are no lines at the machines and I'm not waiting for a train.
I hadn't thought of that. I am used to systems that don't run all night. Yes, aybe Funpasses should run for 24 hours from the first swipe.
But look on the bright side, David, $8 is still good value for a lot of railfanning!
Fytton.
statiosn tells us:
for the weekly and 30 day cards=- thge day ends at Midnight.
for the fun pass- they are good for **up to** 27 hours. They expire at 3am on the day after thw day of first use.
I suggest, before you buy a fun pass or unlimited card to do some quick math/ Fun pass-- will i use it at least 3 times? if yes- buy it. If no then go for a regular card or weekly/30 day card.
For a 7 day card- Will I use it mroe than 11 times? if yes- buy it. No- get a regular card.
For a 30 day card-will I use it more than 43 times? yes- buy the unlimited 30 day. If no- buy a regular card.
Now my personal observatiosn:
1- If it is near midnight you can buy it but wait until 12:01 AM to use the card. ber sure to look at the front of the booth to see what the system time says and not your watch. You cn also use the MwetrioCard Reader which is the stainless steel box near the booth.
2- As a S/A, we get more complaints from customers over the definition of "day" than any other issue. Most understand but some go on. To those I tell them I am sorry but I must obey orders and givw them the supervisor's name and number from the sign. (the sign says in part:
FIRST NAME - LAST NAME
is the Superintendent for this station.
If you have any suggestions, complaints, concerns...
and gives an address and the phone number.
I realize as a station agent there is nothing you can do
about this, BUT it would be _nice_ if the programming were
changed so that 1-day, 7-day and 30-day passes actually provided
those durations of use based on the exact time that the card is
first used, rather than rounding off based on the day.
"BUT it would be _nice_ if the programming were
changed so that 1-day, 7-day and 30-day passes actually provided
those durations of use based on the exact time that the card is
first used, rather than rounding off based on the day. "
It's pretty clear why they don't do that with the Fun Passes.
If I have 2 trips to take today and 2 tomorrow, and I have some discretion about when I take them, I could buy a Fun Pass at 2 PM today, and do today's trips, then make sure to do tomorrow's trips before 2 PM.
That kind of behavior would cause a sizable reduction in revenue over and above the reduction caused by the existing arrangement for the Fun Pass.
This can't be a huge revenue problem for Transit. If people didn't cry so much about getting rid of the token then you could've had a system where you need to swipe in order to exit the stations. People wouldn't pay for an entry swipe when they also need an exit swipe. And yes, I know, many of the stations would not be able to handle the crowds of people waiting to to swipe when they leave the station.
What's the punishment for this? Appearently it's not working because this guy has been arrested 10 times and he's still doing it.
Ironically, I read that article in the Post, and an hour later, as I entered 57th/6 Av., I saw a swiper letting in a tourist family. He even gave them a discount...letting 2 people go through the turnstile on one swipe.
Oh, here's the kicker...right down the stairs, who had a perfect view of the swiper, was a TA worker
Did the TA worker do anything?
I don't know what rules the MTA has about that, but, if I were a supervisor, and I knew an MTA worker allowed a swiper to do his/her thing without interference, I would move to terminate that worker's employment.
It is possible the worker was in collusion with the swiper, allowing him/her to work unmolested, in return for a cut of the illegal proceeds.
Or it's possible the "MTA worker" (whatever that means) DID call it in, unbeknownst to our intrepid SubTalk reporter.
David
Both of those are possible, but I didn't stick around to see the conclusion...I had railfanning to do, and an R-32 F train pulled in moments later.
Or simply the more people who get swiped, the less bothering the token Clerk at his booth.
And the more we need to terminate the token clerk's employment.
Came across the news, so if anyone is near a TV at 12 noon today channel 2, they will mention the idea. From the news clip they said its a plan for a 4.5 billion transit hub to be built over WTC site, which would like the subways, LIRR, Metro-North, and PATH
A nice wide platform where subway lines comes in one one side, and the PATH on the other (with turnstiles in the middle of the platform) similar set up like City Hall Station (N/R)
So will the Atlantic Branch be extended into Manhattan?
Metro North cross the west side or even under the Second Ave line (if that ever gets built)
Just thoughts/question in my head till I see the plan/idea
Excuse my ignorance to the whole thing, but is this really needed?
Newsday story at http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nyhub122819808aug12.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dmore%2Dbreaking%2Dnews
Yes, it is. The WTC area featured a tangle of transit lines, with relatively confusing ways of sending people from PATH to the subway or commuter rail. The new plan will make it much easier to commute, shop on site, get home faster and with less hassle, and also represents an opportunity to increase ADA-access, which makes the whole thing more friendly to everyone.
The whole area is to be redeveloped anyway, so "Do we really need this" is really not the relevant question. The money is available and will be spent anyway. The real question is now that we have an opportunity to redevelop cohesively , howq do we do that? That question was answered today.
Hey, thanks alot for the website, much appreciated
"…The real question is now that we have an opportunity to redevelop cohesively , how do we do that?"
That I agree on alot. For one, linking all the stations at Fulton in one line would be a great thing too
My remark/question came from the discussions a while back about extending the LIRR Altantic Avenue branch into Lower Manhattan. If were going to bypass a major station for a new closer major station, what use is the previous station afterwards? Then again, The Flatbush Terminal is no Grand Central in any way
Not knocking the idea of a Southern Hub in Manhattan, just really curious to see the routes, how much it will be used, and the flow of commuter traffic resulting after everything is in place
Who knows, I look at the Marriot Downtown Brooklyn, maybe commuters from Jersey an business will find thtemselves in Brooklyn more, time ill tell
The article doesn't say the LIRR would be extended to Lower Manhattan. The only plan for doing so would significantly increase the risk of a severe loss of subway service for Brooklyn with nothing offered in return. That risk would occur daily, due to the loss of capacity for re-routes, and in the long run, due to the uncertain 50 year future of the Manhattan Bridge.
Without commuter rail extensions to Lower Manhattan, what you have is a $2.5 billion underground sidewalk. I disagree with Ron in Bayside that it doesn't matter if the money is effectively spent or not because it is federal. It is flat out stupid to assume that money spent for this will not be taken from other New York projects. And it is absurd that $2.5 million is not enough to bore a new tunnel and bring in the LIRR. I believe the Chunnel was built for about that, adjusted for currency differences and inflation.
"Without commuter rail extensions to Lower Manhattan, what you have is a $2.5 billion underground sidewalk"
It would be nice to see exactly what these two new buildings will look like in the plan.
You've changed your tune, slightly, Larry. "The ceiling is falling!"
It still seems like $4.5 billion is a heck of a lot of money for the project, if it's only contained to rearrianging the platforms and boring out a pedestrian walkway from the World Financial Center over to Broadway (the Times story last week did include the "Rector Connection" as part of the project, with a price tag of $70 million).
However, all that money would give the MTA and PATH a chance to do what would need to be done to build a single-level walkway from WFC to Broadway, which would be to drop the IRT 1/9 tracks one level lower than where they're being reconstructed. That would allow the walkway to run in a straight line with no stairs, escallators or ADA elevators one level beneath West Street, one level above the 1/9 tracks and one level below the N/R tracks at Church Street and the 4/5 tracks at Broadway (since the rise of the land between Greenwich and Church Streets means that being one level underground at Church is the same as being at street level over at West Street). Lowering the 1/9 would also require a new approach/departure path for PATH from the old Hudson Terminal station, if the decision is finally made to restore that area and expand it to handle 10-car trains.
All that depends on what they finally decide will go above the site, and whether or not West Street will be lowered, as has been suggested.
It is not necessary to have this grand complex all on one level, whatever level that might be. It is always necessary to have a vertical access to the varrios platforms.
While the 4.x Billion is sufficient to build the WTC Hub Complex, some of the connecting lines may have to be built out of other funding.
Examine the problem of getting commuter rail to the site.
1- The Cranberry Tunnel... A DUMB unworkale, disruptive idea whose time has passed like an over dead fish. Doesn't do squat for Metro North.
2- Extending the Atlantic Line through a new tunnel... Possible but of limited utility, and with complicated convolutions to pass without interupting existing subway lines. Still doesn't do squat for Metro North.
3- Extending lines from GCT south to WTC via... Via WHAT for pitty sake... That will also transit some of the bussiest parts of Manhattan... a disruption far greater than any Second Avenue Subway could have. It does get both LIRR and all MN trains to WTC...
But how can you build a full fledged multi-track TERMINAL with all terminal services in the WTC area?
4- Building along the West side from Penn Station... very doable, will need some controtions to get MN through there, though some can access via the Upper West Side Line, and NH trains can access via Hell Gate Bridge. Still no Adequate terminal services at WTC.
5- Witch brings me back to My Plan. Building a tunnel along Avenue C does not disrupt very much (as compared to other routings), LIRR can use the Lower Montaug Line for a dual track high speed non-stop routing from Jamaica. MN trains from CT have ready access via Hell Gate Bridge, others *could* have new trackage laid in the Bronx to give similar access. NJT gets access, as does cross river freight, and lines to EWR and LAG airports. MN and LIRR terminal Services would be in New Jersey, while NJT terminal services would be at Sunnyside, where they already have a presence. Yes, funding for two major cross rive tunnels will need to be found, but it seems to me to be the best possible plan for building a WTC Transit HUB!
Elias
(Examine the problem of getting commuter rail to the site.)
I think the best idea is the Regional Plan Association's Metrolink plan. A suburban connector would be built in association with the Second Avenue Subway, traveling east from Grand Central, down Second Avenue, through a new tunnel to Brooklyn, and out to Jamaica. Both LIRR and MetroNorth riders could use it to get to Lower Manhattan, and there would be no need to build a multi-track station to layover trains in Manhattan. It would also make the city-portion of the Second Avenue more likely, by built in association with it, rather than less likely, by diverting funds.
I'd make three modifications to their plan. First, I'd make the Suburban Connector express on Second Avenue all the away from Grand Central to Lower Manhattan, with fare control and a separate fare for those tranferring from the Second Avenue Subway proper. I'd have a non-TA entity run it, and have it be FRA compatible and able to share trackage with the commuter railroads. And, I'd continue the line west under the river to New Jersey, to provide a quick ride from NJ to Grand Central after a change at Secaucus Transfer.
No, you wouldn't have a one seat ride from NJT to GCT, or from the LIRR or MetroNorth to Lower Manhattan. But you would have an easy transfer to a premium service that solved all the suburban access problems at once. With the existing network, the LIRR to GCT, and MetroNorth to Penn, and intergrated ticketing, you'd have a complete "outer" regional network to complement the subway.
That's a nice idea. Very cohesive. Perhaps the Second Av tunnels should be double deck, with commuter rail running on the lower level.
Is your plan a bit like how London's Metropolitan Line relates to the Jubilee along certain stretches, say near Dollis Hill?
(That's a nice idea. Very cohesive. Perhaps the Second Av tunnels should be double deck, with commuter rail running on the
lower level. Is your plan a bit like how London's Metropolitan Line relates to the Jubilee along certain stretches, say near Dollis Hill?)
I'm not sure. What I do know is that the RPA proposed two plans. The 1996 RX plan proposed new routes all over the place, including the line from Grand Central to New Jersey and TWO super-express lines down the East Side from GCT. The later Metrolink plan eliminated the New Jersey aspect and had the Grand Central spur joining other trains on the two track Second Avenue line, with suburban commuters riding the general subway with low class folks from Brooklyn. The former was too much to pay for, the latter not enough to attract support.
Is your plan a bit like how London's Metropolitan Line relates to the Jubilee along certain stretches, say near Dollis Hill?
That particular stretch is even better than that:
Jubilee Line Local
Metropolitan Line Express
and alongside that the main line out of Marylebone
It's quite a sight having a tube line, a subsurface line, the London - Aylesbury Commuter trains (2 routes) and the London - Birmingham Clubman on the same ROW.
For $4.5 billion, can't we just extend Metro-North south to Downtown? Then, we can have a transfer to the PATH train so that New Jersey commuters can use the empty trains that would be returning to Grand Central. If Metro-North wanted a "super shuttle", they could handle it themselves and cash in on those suburbanites as well. Having passengers on a deadhead move stretches the dollars further.
>>>It is flat out stupid to assume that money
spent for this will not be taken from other New York projects. And it is absurd that $2.5
million is not enough to bore a new tunnel and bring in the LIRR. I believe the Chunnel
was built for about that, adjusted for currency differences and inflation. <<<
It might be a simplistic argument--you tell me--but I believe that the political will is simply not there for mass transit projects. The 2nd avenue subway was re-proposed, what, 2-3 years ago? Not a spadeful of earth has been moved.
The new Farley Building train station was first proposed by Moynihan...what, 10 years ago? Not a spadeful of earth has been moved, because the Post Office is adamant about not giving up the space.
Why are transit projects proposed, but never acted upon in NYC? Simple... there isn't enough political capital tied up in these kind of projects. Those whose votes REALLY count...whose influence REALLY counts...the wealthy, don't take subways, or LIRR or Metro North.
They take limousines. And they never wait on sweltering August platforms. They do not experience what we experience. And because of that, they don't really care about mass transit all that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Simple... there isn't enough political capital tied up in these kind of projects. Those whose votes REALLY count...whose influence REALLY counts...the wealthy, don't take subways, or LIRR or Metro North.
They take limousines. And they never wait on sweltering August platforms. They do not experience what we experience. And because of that, they don't really care about mass transit all that much. "
Annoyingly enough on various levels this is true; how many on the top boards of the MTA ACTUALLY use the subways and buses they run? (If they took the Lexington line on a daily bases, the 2nd Ave may have been built every since. Maybe that should be a priority: If your going to run something, maybe you should use it, not just for publicity stunts.
Question that comes up is:
If they dont use the system, why do they have so much power in what goes on in it?
"…The 2nd avenue subway was re-proposed, what, 2-3 years ago? Not a spadeful of earth has been moved."
Keyword "re-proposed"
Accountability is another key
They take limousines. And they never wait on sweltering August platforms. They do not experience what we experience. And because of that, they don't really care about mass transit all that much.
Yes, they *do* care. They all have employees who need to get into work.
Elias
(They take limousines. And they never wait on sweltering August platforms. They do not experience what we experience. And because of that, they don't really care about mass transit all that much.)
We haven't built many roads lately, either. The money is going elsewhere.
That's a cop-out. When you make a claim like that, you absolve yourself of any responsibility whatsoever in the consequences of our apathy.
A lot of things caused the lack of system expansion. Many things out of our control, some within our control, some political (Moses, Beame, etc.). Some of it is due to advocates each saying "My plan is better than yours; you shut up because no one wants to hear your opinion" - and refusing to cooperate or compromise. It's my fault because I didn't write enough letters to legislators or call them often enough until relatively recently (I got really active in the mid-90's).
The simple fact that NYC has such a huge system means we are already spending more money (more than $3 billion a year in capital dollars) just maintaining and overhauling what we already have than any other system in the US.
In spite of that, we do finally have a 63rd Street line, an Archer Av line, AirTrain to Kennedy, and a new LIRR line under construction.
A new transit hub in lower Manhattan is in the works (I hate the tragic reason why we got the money, but I celebrate its construction nonetheless); Second Av is approved for construction in '04, and the Manhattan Bridge is coming back in '04.
If you want to whine and disclaim responsibility, fine. You can say all of the above projects are stupid and worthless, and you're entitled to say that.
But if that's the contribution you choose to make, then if transit projects don't happen, it's as much your fault as anybody else's.
Hooray for optimism!
But I have a question:
New LIRR Line??? Give me details!
-(W)est End Scott
In spite of that, we do finally have a 63rd Street line,
Dubbed "the tunnel to nowhere" - slightly unfair, as it has had a minor beneficial effect, but understandable as it doesn't provide a second line across Queens.
an Archer Av line,
Which doesn't quite replace the end of the Jamaica El.
AirTrain to Kennedy,
Being run as a separate system from everything else.
and a new LIRR line under construction.
Finally something real.
They are all real. You may or may not like them - but every one of them provides a function (several functions each) which was not there before.
Nice idea...but that's all it will be. Call me a cynic, but...the 2nd avenue subway and IND Phase II were nifty ideas, too.
www.forgotten-ny.com
When I told my brother how the new trains on the 2/5 were different from those on the 6, he pointed out another difference he noticed which I don't think I've heard from anybody here. It isn't that specific though. All he said was that he noticed some type of "screws" on the 6 that he never sees on the 2/5. I asked him to explain further but he couldn't get any more specific. Can anybody make heads or tails of what he might have meant?
Another difference i know its very minor is you know the flashing light under the door on a 142/142A when it closes. The 142 has a much bigger light then 142A. Another difference i saw is the windows that are at the ends of the car. How they secured the windows are different. On the 142A the glass of windows at the ends are secured by several screws and the glass literally covers the opening from the outside of the opening. On the 142 the glass is the same sizeas the opening and appears to be more inside then 142A. Its very hard to explain.
Maybe he meant the geese on the 6 have more
'screws' loose than the geese of the 2?
Questionable?
Article: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/10305p-9715c.html
I wonder if a criminal could be forever banned from the subway, rather than just during parole...
Wow ... so when does DARIUS get out? :)
hey ''Kirk''...been away for a bit.. whats the good word on the station''cross the river? went to the Circus last week over there and got a pretty good look at it... platforms are in,everything looks spiffy... all except one detail.. NOBODIES USING IT!!!!Makes me want to kick someone.....
Oh no, bro ... GETS WORSE ... your "Congressfish John 'let's cut government waste' Sweeney" just screwed us all out of ANOTHER 2 million for "engineering studies to build the new Saratoga Spa Amtrak Metroplex subway and rhythm and blues review station and get this ... PATURKEY has joined up with his buttbuddy Bruno to shake down Amtrak s'more ...
Read it and weep ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=55106&category=REGION&newsdate=8/10/2002
Since there was no reaction to a number of additional things I've posted here in the meantime AT ALL, I've stopped posting about Bruno's shakedown since nobody cares anymore. New York City's going to have the SUBWAY funds cut to pay for this, and subway service cut back so Bruno can have his MONUMENT, but if nobody cares, I guess I don't either any longer. :)
whats this about Saratoga?
Moooo ...
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=368229
Mayor Bloomberg isn't the governor, why should we care? :)
It seems like someone is pulling a dirty trick. No restaurant at the busiest Empire Corridor station outside of New York? Something's not right here. Are they going to compromise AMTRAK to get their way? I can see the high-speed rail funds being held hostage next.
Selkirk, how many New York-Albany passengers does AMTRAK have currently?
I don't know the numbers, but they WERE mentioned in one of those articles. Problem with TU is that while it's free and there's no nonsense on their site, stories "go away" after 7 days no longer to be found. It *is* a substantial number of passengers, making it the NINTH busiest single Amtrak station in the NATION.
And yeah, the shutting down of the restaurant was a typical Brunoland solution for those who don't tow the line. I don't know quite what happened there, but they won't be allowed to reopen since another restaurant got the contract for the Bruno station (which is closed) so if Amtrak don't fork up the cash, then Amtrak can go to hell as far as our politicos go. The word "vendetta" sorta explains the stance and as far as Amtrak is concerned, they're losing money on the Empire corridor and the lessons of what AMtrak just did to the MBTA has been ignored.
But rest assured, Bruno, Paturkey and pals wouldn't shed a tear if Amtrak shut down the Hudson line. And that's the sad part. Either these boys get their way, or the taxpayers can go to hell. All of them are going to get re-elected by a landslide, so they're not the least bit worried about the voters.
They wouldn't shut that line down...it's the fastest way for politicians to get out of the Capital Region. None of them stick around longer than they need to.
Well ... I'm going to tread a cautious line here. Paturkey has a LIMO. Bruno lives to the east of Troy and many of the others aren't along the ROW. This is not to say of course that many city legislators and senators and those from LI don't use the train - I'm sure they do. But here in NYS, as most of us who know the political lay of the land go, the individual politicians have NEVER been part of the process. In OUR state, all decisions and lawmaking are done by the "triumvirat" of Bruno, Silver and Paturkey. All others are meaningless and could just as well stay home and phone in their vote.
With 2 out of 3 (against Silver) I'd say the tea leaves have spoken. Ah, if only our legislature worked the way people THINK it does, we wouldn't BE here where we are. :)
(rant)
Please don't tell me you actually liked Pataki's predecessor...
(/rant)
Let me get this straight.
You clearly think this is a boondoggle. OK.
Consider...
People who go to Saratoga are rich.
Rich people can afford to ride Amtrak indiscriminately.
Increasing ridership on Amtrak -- particularly in lucrative corridors -- is good.
Saratoga (as a thoroughbred meet) is only open for about 7 weeks per year.
Getting rich people to ride full fare on Amtrak to Saratoga to a well-appointed, though part-time, station doesn't seem like it would be too tough a prospect.
So... Amtrak gets trains full of full-fare passengers for seven weeks a year on a spur near Albany...
Amtrak need not waste trains nor time running much service to Saratoga at other times of the year.
The racetrack seems to survive OK with only seven weeks worth of activity per year.
What's not to like?
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
(rant reply) I didn't care much for Padre Mario either - I'd like to see an ECONOMIST who can count dollars and give correct change in the governor's mansion and actually LIVE there, so against all odds, I'm hoping Carl McCall gets elected (/rant reply)
As to the fantasies of Amtrak patronage to Saratoga, the numbers are SO small, they're off the charts. The rich fly in to the local airport or arrive by limousine, renting or staying at their summer mansions. So while there might be a slight increase in use of Amtrak on the CP spur" there, it certainly won't come anywhere near the costs we are being asked to bear at a time when we don't have the money. But sure, that all sounds good if you don't dig too deeply at the real numbers.
But they don't need the station, and Amtrak's financial situation is such that if they are REQUIRED to ante up for this, Amtrak will just cancel the train entirely to avoid the expense. We're facing this as a real possibility for Rensselaer, which actually HAS passengers.
The legal system cannot impose any restrictions on you once your incaration period and parole have expired.
If these guys were smart they would just go and rob people on PATH as PATH is not the NYC Subway and going further is not a Subway at all, but an FRA railroad.
>>>If these guys were smart they would just go and rob people on PATH...<<<
If these guys were smart, they would give up their lives of crime and become productive members of society.
Peace,
ANDEE
Either that or become accountants, corporate executives, financial analysts or state senators. EVERYBODY gonna do some time today 'cuz here come da judge ... just don't be caught doing a small crime. America LOVES those who commit really really BIG crimes. Morons ... they could have gotten ELECTED and walked. But then again, Joe Bruno wouldn't be caught DEAD on the subways so I suppose they're ON to something. :)
"The legal system cannot impose any restrictions on you once your incaration period and parole have expired"
I'm not sure that's entirely true. One example is sexual offenders that are required to register with local authorities wherever they move to. There are probably some other examples as well.
Still, subway pickpocketing really isn't on the same level as child molestation.
CG
And granted, I agree ... HOWEVER ... if you're "reformed," then you're entitled to the freedom. If you're NOT "reformed" as far as child molestation goes, then you SHOULDN'T have been sent to jail, you should have been locked up in a MENTAL HOSPITAL *UNTIL* you're cured, and if NOT cured, not released until you ARE cured.
But that's ***WAY*** off-topic for here: crime, punishment, treatment of the insane in a proper manner, racism, classism and a raft of other things. But I don't look fondly on the whole concept of the "pederast registry" ... if they ain't cured, then they shouldn't be *OUT* in the first place. Pederasty is a DISEASE and they should be hospitalized until they're cured ... However long it takes ... if ever. The prison system is NOT there to be a substitute for medical/psychological treatment. Though it is in TODAY'S touchy-feely nonsense world ... plain wrong. I shut up now.
Well there was one sex offender programme in some western state that made ppl put a sign in their car and house. However, it could only be applied to people on parole. The justifacation for the programme of humiliation was that the inmates chose it over staying in prison.
A judge banning a non-parolee from a public service would violate due process. Said punishment would have to be written into statutory law and would only apply to new convicts as you can't enforce retroactive punishments.
I beg to differ, mike. It is common for convicted felons to lose the right to run for public office, to vote or even to be in contact with ceertain elements of society, even after their parole is over..
Which is wrong (not incorrect).
At least in New York State, one can vote once one's sentence is completed.
It's ridiculous to remove a person's ability to vote after his sentence is over. One might as well make a life sentence mandatory for all felonies.
It's ridiculous to remove a person's ability to vote after his sentence is over.
Not ridiculous. Just common sense. Why should we let those who have no respect for law and order, take part in determining the course that our country will take? We might as well let anti-American terrorists vote.
Hopefully the removal of a criminal's right to vote only affects those guilty of big crimes.
Alan Glick
But it makes it possible for those in power to disenfranchise large segments of the population or a subset of it. Drug laws and various forms of selective enforcement of these laws are doing this very thing to the African American population. Besides, if people feel they have no state in society any more they will have no reason to alter their approach toward it.
There is also a serious problem as the rate of fellony incarseration begins to rise. Currently the US hs the highest rate of incarseration in the civilized world (at 25,000$ a pop a might add, but that's another argument), with many many more ex-felons. At some point the system won't be stable any more. I don't know what this point is exactly, but I do know that once 51% of the population is disenfranchised a voilent revolution is right around the corner.
Not ridiculous. Just common sense. Why should we let those who have no respect for law and order, take part in determining the course that our country will take? We might as well let anti-American terrorists vote.
It is not common sense. This person's sentence is over, he is now a regular member of society. If a person commits a crime severe enough to justify never being returned into regular society, then that person is sentenced to life, even if the possibility of parole is there. Or death.
In that case, the person never casts another ballot again.
>>> It is common for convicted felons to lose the right to run for public office, to vote or even to be in contact with ceertain elements of society, even after their parole is over <<<
I think Mike was referring to physical restrictions on where they can go within the U.S. (They may be ineligible for a passport). Such things as not being able to vote, or own or be in possession of a firearm (which now is true for misdemeanor spousal abuse convictions also), and registration of sex offenders are common. I know of no law which would prohibit being in contact with any element of society once a sentence is completed. Non-citizens are subject to deportation.
Tom
"I know of no law which would prohibit being in contact with any element of society once a sentence is completed. Non-citizens are subject to deportation. "
Driving ad using mass transit are privileges, not rights. One could earn a "persona non grata" status for either.
Such things as not being able to vote, or own or be in possession of a firearm
Vary from state to state. Most Convicted Felons cannot run for office, and in many states cannot vote. I'v never heard of a ban on associations, though such associations are easily watched, and if they are watching, they can catch them in new crimes. They'd be smart to start over in a new place, with new people, and to avoid the kinds of people that would get them in to trouble. But then they wern't very smart in the first place, so.....
Elias
A ban on associations would violate the first ammendment.
Didn't Victor Hugo write a book directed against exactly this phenomenon?
MINOR correction ... convicted felons *ARE* allowed to run for public office, they just lose the right to VOTE for themselves. Seriously, look it up. Trafficant will run again when he gets out. :)
Trafficant will run again when he gets out. :)
Heck, he's already announced that he's running again from jail!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What are the odds he gets re-elected ;-)
That should be amusing ... most prisons DO prohibit "outside enterprise" as long as you're inside. But hey, politicos are known for the size of them big brass clangers. :)
If someone lost the right to run for public office the easiest way to eliminate an opponent would be to convict them of either a bogus, trumped up or frivilious offence. Therefore it makes perfect sence not to allow this sort of corrupt governmental control.
There are times that I'd PREFER to vote for the convicted felon for political office. Can't be any worse than the current holders of many political positions and probably a lot more honest. :)
But I'll be good and not go any further.
I know you vote for Lyndon LaRouche for president every four years and suck up his 'live from prison TV appeals.'
So whaddayu think I've wanted from TA? End of Probation? Permanance?
Recognition? Eleven months on the job and I got what I wanted: a pigeon locked in my carbody!!! Sucker pecked the floor like a chicken looking for grits...I'd run towards him and he would take off with beak to my nose like a cruise missle and dodge the s/s poles for the other end. We did this several times after removing my PPE/tools/kit. I did not have my Minox sized digital camera! This is no ordinary pigeon...he was bred and trained for the Bombardier R142 and fattened up by CIs leavings for Pan-Asian cuisine.
LaRouche ... heh. Talk about your Froot loops. I *did* vote for Louis Abalafia once (and Gus Hall) as an alternative to McGovern. But yeah, if he runs, maybe I'll vote for LaRouche. Whoever proffers a platform of not hitting Amtrak over the head with a sock full of quarters. Papoon for President. You know he's not insane. :)
Removing the source of a felons ability to commit crimes against society is not rights withheld...rather a chance for the crook to rehabilitate. Sexual contact with minors...no contact with children. Stealing French Fries from MacDonalds...no potatoes. Pick pocketing MTA riders...get a bicycle. Robbing with a gun...no pistol license. Being late to TA work...a paid visit to Jay Street. CEO of ENRON...nice retirement. Credit card fraud?????.....snow blocks and shoe paddles. CI Peter
Sorry, I was unclear. When you are sentenced you are given a grab bag of punishment. After you are given the bag there is nothing more they can stick into it. If a subway ban was not part of the original bag, you cannot be retroactivly punished. This is a voilation of your due process rights.
Again, Mike, you might want to look at 'Civil Commitment'. Civil Commitment, I believe, has yet to be seriously challenged in court. As I understand it, for certain crimes, after the felon has completed his sentence, he may be committed to a mental facility for an indetermanent period.
We got those...commited to a mental facility for an undeterminable period of time. 25/55 CI Peter
They still have a hearing to be civilly committed and it is governed under statute. Officially Civil Commitment is not a punishment and has nothing to do with the person's initial crime. If it did it would be blatently unconstitutional. CC just says that whomever is currently a nutjob that needs to be taken off the streets because he poses a danger of imminent harm. CC will probably be stopped under appeal as it is not logical that a person can be found responsible for his actions and serve prison time and then be declared not responsible for his actions due to mental illness and locked away because he can't stop himself.
It is a violation of double jeopardy to retroactivly apply punishments for the same crime.
The question is, is the MTA able to ban whomever it wants from its system? It is a "private" corporation owned by the state of NY. An Airline could definitly ban people for life. Amtrak probably can so I assume the MTA can as well. Of course the MTA would have to file a criminal tresspass complaint every time a banned person was arrested as that would be the applicable law.
>>> If these guys were smart they would just go and rob people on PATH as PATH is not the NYC Subway and going further is not a Subway at all, but an FRA railroad. <<<
Most parolees cannot leave their home county without specific permission from their parole officer. They certainly could not go to New Jersey.
Tom
No embedded GPS tags to track parolees traveling out of state. Same for diplomats in NYC...I find them travelling Interstate 80 heading towards Pennsylvania in violation of diplomatic travel restrictions.
We have 'freedom to travel' and should not have to carry 'embedded ID chips.' BTW: EasyPass gains access to tolled travel BUT few know that there are standing traffic scanners on isolated sections of highway that track the users. CI Peter
PATH runs b/t 34th and Christopher St. w/in NYC.
Seriously, I wonder if this ban does apply to either PATH or LIRR/MNRR w/in the city.
You know they will do this to Darius.
I don't see why not. If the company refuses to sell its services to him, is there some law that requires them to?
Here's the story:
http://www.mostnewyork.com/front/story/10305p-9715c.html
To the male conductor on the A/C/E who announces the Chambers Street stop as "Chambers Street - Ground Zero" in a deep, dramatic, ominous tone - please STOP IT!
There is no good reason to add "Ground Zero" to your announcement. The New Yorkers who are daily riders of the A, C and E lines (including me) are painfully aware that Ground Zero is located above the Chambers Street station. There is no reason to remind us. If you're making that announcement for the tourists who might be on the train, I respectfully submit that the tourists already know, or should know, where Ground Zero is, and if they don't, they can simply ask another rider.
On the other habd, if you're just trying to be melodramatic and like hearing yourself making such a dramatic announcement, please KNOCK IT OFF. Make the announcement to yourself during your morning shower - leave the riders alone.
If any of the C/R's or other Transit employees know who this conductor is, please convey this message to him. Every time I hear that announcement, I get nauseous.
I'm not one for ratting people out to the TA, but if I had to listen to BS like that every day I would definitely write a letter.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have heard of poor taste but that Conductor really goes beyond that.
But I wonder, if he had said something like "Chambers St - WTC Memorial" would anyone have objected?
I wouldn't. But then, it wouldn't be as dramatic an announcement.
Problem though. There's no memorial. Maybe they should say 'wreakage' or 'giant hole'. j/k!
You need to note the car number - this gives the TA a way to trace to which train conductor is doing this.
I am truly surprised that no one has complained about this clown.
Peace,
ANDEE
The station should be announced as "Chambers Street-World Trade Center" as the signs designate. I don't recall seeing a "Chambers Street-Ground Zero" sign. I think this C/R has a very sick mind. If I could call the shots, I would transfer him to the Franklin Ave Shuttle for late-nite runs if conductors were still used on the FS. I never thought a C/R would be dumm enough to make an announcement like that.
WHAT A DUFUS!!!
You'd be surprised at how many people come up to me when I work the A or the C and ask, "How do I get to Ground Zero?" or "What stop is Ground Zero?" or "We're going to Ground Zero. How do we get there?" It makes me cringe every time I hear it.
I said this in a previous post; until the TA decides on what to call the station, it should just be Chambers Street, not Chambers Street-World Trade Center and certainly not Chambers Street-Ground Zero. The World Trade Center does not exist anymore and simply calling the area Ground Zero is tasteless, inconsiderate, unprofessional, and to me is a sign of disrespect; so I will not incorporate either in my announcement at that station. It is my sole opinion that every other conductor should be as respectful.
The official name of the E station is not Chambers Street -- it's World Trade Center, possibly with a Chambers Street subtitle. It's well south of Chambers Street. The TA has decided to keep the old name for the time being.
Like it or not, the site has become a major tourist attraction, and tourists sometimes need help finding their way around. I don't like the "Ground Zero" name either, but that doesn't change the fact that "Ground Zero" is how much of the world refers to the site. I doubt the people who use the term mean any disrespect whatsoever.
A few weeks ago, an unannounced weekend GO sent E trains to 2nd Avenue instead of WTC. The C/R on my train announced at W4 that anyone wishing to go to Ground Zero should get off and take an A or C instead. Most of the people remaining on a SB E train past W4 on a Sunday afternoon are going to the WTC site. Should the C/R have not made that announcement? (I would have preferred if he had spoken of "the World Trade Center site" rather than of "Ground Zero," but that's really a minor quibble. Like the tourists, I doubt he meant any disrespect.)
I think that's the case. I don't think the guy who is behind this isn't doing this intentionally. Besides, can you assume that he's so badass just because he says Ground Zero? Please...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the signage on the E platform has "Chambers Street" as the main title with "World Trade Center" as the subtitle. And should it make any difference that Chambers Street is north of the station? Many stations in the system have names of streets that are not actually where the exit is. For example, Chauncey Street on the J line is actually at Rockaway Avenue and Broadway, Gates Avenue on the J line is actually at Quincy Street and Broadway. West 4th Street, Manhattan on the A, C, E, and F lines is actually at West 3rd Street and Sixth Avenue. That shouldn't be an issue.
I still maintain that until the E platform is given a specific name I will announce it as Chambers Street.
No, actually, I believe you are incorrect. Take a look the next time you're there -- I will as well. The official subway map (June 2002, fresh from the token booth tonight) clearly shows three stations in the complex: "Chambers St" on the A/C, "Park Pl" on the 1/2, and "World Trade Center" on the E. The E station wasn't renamed after 9/11.
And just to be on the safe side, I checked a brand new June 2002 Multilingual Edition "The Map," and as you wrote, there are three stations: Chambers, Park Pl, and WTC.
--Brian
Brian, you HAVE to stop putting pics that reside on your school's network server. We can't see them. Every time you do this, the network login at Cornell pops up. Please stop!!
And anyway I have always wondered why he's using a heiiel server. AEM7
No, I believe the station is (and was) officially called "World Trade Center". All the maps point to that station and it says "World Trade Center for the E terminal. The signs on the E train rollsigns way "World Trade Center". I have a "track destination" sign that I bought years ago at the Transit Museum Auction and it says:
(E) To: World Trade Center (all times)
Back in my day the station was referred to as Chambers St/Hudson Terminal.
My day too...heh
Peace,
ANDEE
Yesterday I read an advertisment for a shoe store which gave it's location as three blocks south of Ground Zero.
So..how about an update, has this guy stopped?
Peace,
ANDEE
Haven't heard him recently, but that could just mean he wasn't working the train I was on.
Relax
Like it or not Ground Zero is how the world calls the site. As a cop whenever I was sent to Manhattan there were a lot of people who came over to me for directions to Ground Zero. I'm sure a lot of tourists riding the subway for the first time are not sure how to ride it and are a little uncomfortable to ask someone how to get to Ground Zero. When we were on our cross country trip a couple of weeks ago I-40 (the old route 66) went right through Oklahoma City. We wanted to see the memorial there but had no idea where it was as we were never in that city before. (or the whole southwest for that matter) As we were on an interstate we had nobody to ask and would have felt funny getting off and asking someone. Then we saw an exit sign that also said "Memorial Site". We got off, followed the signs a found the memorial. If it wasn't for that sign we probably wouldn't have stopped and kept going on to Texas. I'm sure there are some tourists who are glad to have heard the announcement.
I'm with you Sarge. Too many overly sensitive people nowadays...it's just an announcement for crying out loud. Maybe it's the WAY he's saying it that's causing problems for some folks sensibilities, but referring to it as "Ground Zero" shouldn't be a problem since that is the commonly accepted terminology. It no longer is WTC since -- sadly -- it no longer exists.
I disagree, Doug. We are CONSTANTLY bombarded with reminders of the event, one needs only to have to turn on the TV. We do not need a conductor announcing the name of a station which is incorrect. Call the station what it is, WTC. If and when the TA renames the station "Ground Zero" then it would be appropos.
The "gubbmint" says we should move on with our lives, I personally feel that the media and clowns like this conductor are not letting us.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying forget about it but sometimes.....
Peace,
ANDEE
The "gubbmint" says we should move on with our lives, I personally feel that the media and clowns like this conductor are not letting us.
I'd give the conductor the benefit of the doubt. He probably started making the annoucements only after being asked "How do I get to Ground Zero?" for the hundredth time. We may know what train to take in order to see Ground Zero, but many tourists don't.
As to your comment about the media not letting us forget, it turns out that the TV networks are glossing over what happened. According to the Times, none of the TV specials on the upcoming anniversary will show videos of jumpers, even though many such videos exist. I dislike that sort of pious self-censorship. People should be able to see exactly what happened, no matter how disturbing that might be. In addition, it's better if the jumpers are shown on legitimate media outlets rather than on the next Faces of Death video.
And that unfortunately is where they eventually will wind up. Eventually they will come out like that and someone is going to profit from it. It would have been better if they had just shown it - people would have gotten it out of their systems by now and would have had far less interest in it when they come out in a "Faces of Death" sort of way.
Personally, I am sick of seeing footage of the towers on fire. The same would have been true for people having to look at the jumpers.
I would like to see the original broadcast from the time the first hit was mentioned to the time of the second collapse. I didn't watch TV during that time and I'd like to see how they handled it. I really don't care about seeing the images though, I've seen them enough times (once is enough).
FOX News Channel was doing just that a few months ago.
--Mark
In the example of Oklahoma, the signage seems
to be there as a whispering touristy reminder
of where the Memorial Site is... (ya don't
hear any Oklahomies babbling at the mouth
over THEIR little bomb-go-boom incident, do ya??)...
No, they don't mention/talk about it... but
there's a sign to direct any interested party.
Like ANDEE says, 'we NYers are constantly reminded'
verbally and visually... so why not deck the halls
with a spiffy little sign at the nearby stations
and unplug the PA in this C/R's cab...
Well put, thank you Carlos.
Peace,
ANDEE
Two teenagers playing on top of a freight car in Lancaster, PA, were seriously burned by contact with the catenary Saturday night.
Lancaster Intelligencer Journal
An incredible tragedy. If they don't die, they are looking at years of tortuous pain, frequent hospital and doctor visits, corrective surgery, strenuous rehailitation, and permanent scarring and disfigurement. Contractures and other deformities will likely also prevent them from participating in sports. Te strain and trauma on their families will be high too.
We can hope for the best for them, and bug Amtrak to better secure ROW.
Ummm ... no offense ... after all "victims" are in vogue, but why is this AMTRAK'S problem? Please understand that I respect you personally, but these were TRESPASSERS. And DUMB ones at that. For the hell they're going to go through if they survived, it was of their own making. You just DON'T ride rooftops under catenary. Hell, TRAINMEN and TRAINWOMEN won't ... if anyone, I'd blame our MEDIA for not making this MORE of an educational "piece" than Anna Nicole's latest bra or who's screwing who on the daytime soaps.
Minda ya, I'm sensitive to the sufferings of others who try to do the right thing and play by the rules, but geez ... what the HADES were they doing up on the top of a GROUNDED, STEEL, CONDUCTIVE TO GROUND boxcar in the FIRST place. Hell, if you can't get a brakeman or conductor up there when PAID to do it, what makes these kids going up there OK? I'm sorry, last I looked, the solar system was NOT childproofed. Please, no offense, but WHERE does this end?
Oh, I agree this was not Amtrak's fault. I just think that securing ROW is a desirable thing to do.
I'd agree if it weren't for the cost. Granted, I live in a four cow town myself, but the kids here *KNOW* not to screw with the railroad because OPERATION LIFESAVER got four days a year for an hour in "class" with them and showed slides of dead meat for all of the so many reasons why you *DIE* when the "train always wins" ...
If there's kids out there willing to screw with trains, then it's a lack of appreciation and a lack of concern among the various means that might have educated them. Then again, I have a sour opinion over excessive ADA ... "if you weren't STUPID, you wouldn't be in a wheelchair now" ... it's one thing for people who are "handicapable" as a result of disease or the actions of someone ELSE, but there's a certain part of me that wants to chide the stupid with "well, was it GOOD for you?" ... pardon the insensitivity, but I've known too many people with the magic license plates who are *STILL* a$$holes ... and got in the situation they're in BECAUSE of same.
Hard to draw the line sometimes for me. I'm a strong believer in "manifest destiny" and "so ye sew, so shall ye reap." But for any INNOCENT, I'm ENTIRELY on their side.
I don't know how old you are, but I'll bet ADA adaptations would be very helpful to some people you know very well.
In any event ADA really has nothing to do with the discussion we just had.
I know, and just for the record, I'm 52 ... that all aside though, PLEASE understand that I'm not a Raygunite ... I *feel* for the victims who through no fault of their own are screwed by lack of access, but at the same time ADA has been turned into a SCAM by many as well. I guess I'm looking at this more CYNICALLY than most - I worked for years with the "Office of Advocate for the Disabled" (Agency building #1, Empire state plaza) and what I recoil about isn't ADA in and of itself, but rather how it's been scammed. But at the same time I don't want to go over the limits of "off-topic here" but there's a lot of enumerations in ADA where the INTENT of the law has gone way past reality and penalizing people (small business and others) beyond the pale and scope of the intent.
Lemme put it to you this way - I'm self-employed. I would have LOVED to have had a day off, but what I do eats 16 hours a day, 7 days a week without ANY time off. Folks who visit subtalk know that I post 7 days a week at bizarre hours. I do NOT have a computer at home. All of my posts are from WORK, and it's permitted as long as I do my "work" too. Such hours and workload are what it takes for those in small businesses who can't affor to hire people to give US some time off and do our workload, plus have a day or so off. Bottom line, I can't afford a day off and it's a major struggle under the shrub administration's complete lack of interest in the "economy" and as a result, I've gotta dance as fast as I can to pay our bills and not go to JAIL. :)
So here's the ADA ... we have *NO* employees ... NOBODY here except for Me and Nancy ("bing-bong") and YET ... because we're an "employer"
we're required to build RAMPS into our *HOME* and provide elevators between the driveway and where our company is located (IN the BASEMENT OF OUR HOUSE!!!) in order to comply with ADA. FORGET that nobody can BUILD an elevator in our house, there's no EMPLOYEES!
Ever wonder why I'm constantly harping here, pissing everyone off on subtalk because "Old Selkirk's raising POLITICS again?" Bonjour ... we've actually had to DEAL with this nonsense. I never bothered with the Department of Labor charges against us a few months ago for a computer error that resulted in my BEDROOM being raided after FIRING 9,999 employees that we never had in an ELECTION YEAR (oh, the pseudohumanity there) ... but yeah, if I've got a bad attitude towards government sausage, PLEASE bear with my snide remarks, not directed towards YOU at all ... but there's why. So my BEDROOM *ain't* ADA compliant ... just figured I'd let ya know why I got so buzzed about it. :)
OK. I can see your gripe.
There's no law or program in existence that couldn't use a little tweaking...
The ADA needs to be results oriented, not means oriented. The result should be that disabled people have assess to Selkirk's house. How this is accomplished should be up to Selkirk. If a disabled person shows up Selkirk should be perfectly free to have his personal ADA compliance method to be to pick up and carry the person where they need to go. Or load them on a hand truck or something. Each company should find their own efficient means of compliance.
THANK YA! I actually HAVE some friends of mine from state service who come out here regularly, and have NO PROBLEM rolling along the side of my house, down to the back, INTO the door downstairs, and then up my plywood ramp to the company bar. One of my regular buddies who comes here is a former conductor from the D&H. Never had a problem going anywhere in the house, upstairs or down ... HOWEVER, the NYS DEPARTMENT OF LABOR had a problem with it.
Prior to the "shrub economy" (or lack thereof fulfilling COMPLETELY the whole GOAL of the terrorists in the FIRST place - Yep, we *LOST* this war) we *HAD* "Handicapable employees" as NYS prefers to DEROGATE them ... two of them rolled in upstairs into our operations center without difficulty, another rolled in around the side in into the DOWNSTAIRS door, but we took crap because there was no ELEVATOR. Everyone laughed at it and signed papers to say, Hey, NO problem.
So we had to FIRE them all when we got "busted" after the lawsuits. Granted, reality was sales SUCKED, but that was the final "compliance with state law" ... two of the three are STILL out of work, but hey. ADA *won* the case ... but there's why I'm so fired up lately. Frankly, I'd *MUCH* rather have my friends working here, but we were deemed "unsafe for kripples" here so I CAN'T ...
But ya wonder why I've gotten so emotional about this (and Sweeney and Bruno jacking up OTHERS like Amtrak) ... but ya gotta sit back and WONDER why "jobs" is the "campaign issue" in New York State these days and wonder why the A$$HOLES in office are rustling their feathers about how GREAT we have it ... uh, yeah.
Didn't mean to come off as insensitive and yet, subtalk doesn't permit the rendering of the truths UNLESS there's a photo ... but there's SO much I can't talk about here that's behind all my madnesses the past few months (including "racism") that would only get me busted by the "thought police" here ...
dude,what the....? sorry for your pain....toss my an e-mail if you need to rap....
Thanks for the offer, we cool. We've had WAY too many staties out here to the (ahem) "compound" and despite YEARS of back and forth, the reality FINALLY sunk in. Cost us the half of our income that the school taxes didn't eat. We've got nice digs and all, but Bambi's looking MIGHTY good as a MEAT dinner lately. Heh.
But like most "corporate executives," We won't be pything away our income in BAIL BONDS. Gotta HAVE money to rip anybody off. :)
On-topic: These kids are lucky to be alive. But, they should still be prosecuted for trespassing on AMTRAK ROW when they get better. Drag them through the court system, let the prosecutor rake them over the coals and then...sentence them to 1000 hours of community service giving safety lectures using the pictures of their trespassing event. Therefore, other people won't have the urge to play on trains near several THOUSAND volts of electricity.
Slightly off-topic: You seem to take this in stride...that's pretty hard to do in bureaucracy. You have to look for the loopholes though...I found a loophole that would allow me to run bus service within New York City on any route I want...despite the fact that NYCDOT won't license anyone to do it. It's loopholes like that which make searching for them SO REWARDING.
I've always agreed that railroads should prosecute trespassers and when equipment is damaged by stupidity (grade crossings as but one example) they should sue there as well. As to the "loophole" bus, our elected go through great efforts to hide them in their "work" so that if they get turned out of office some day, they can specialize in law practice beating up the VERY laws they created. In other words, all of that is done for a REASON.
There's some "misapplications" out there ... and at the same time, working with the "advocate's" office, I got to see a side of it all that nobody gets to see without a "Salary Grade" number from "civil service" ... folks looking to "expand their turf" and "bring action to keep the legal MDBF up to expectations lest LCER ("Legislative Committee for Expenditure Review") determine that they were "oveerstaffed" and failed to "return revenue to the general fund" ... bottom line, is the policitcal offices are ALL about covering the posteriors of the wigs and SCREW the "customers" ... it's ALL about covering the AGENCY and nobody else.
That's why they came after us. We couldn't afford to challenge the silliness, and "beating up on advocates for the downtrodden" is something a "reporter" would NEVEr step on either. Didn't matter that we have a door at "basement level" at the bottom of a gentle hill to our house, what MATTERED is that we didn't contract with Otis of YANKERS to put in an elevator in our HOUSE. After all, Paturkey PROMISES that he'll provide jobs ... this was just another scam of the political kind. Much like Amtrak, who is even more broke than *WE* are. :)
Amtrak, MTA etc. serve millions of passengers. They have to try to come into compliance. By the same token, I fully support using tax money to help them do so.
Ditto (sorry for the word) ... and so far, the actual USERS of such infrastructure are every bit as SCREWED as they were prior (based on the story of the Queens rider who brought out a reporter with him to SEE how royally screwed up POLITICAL solutions without an OUNCE of brain material SUFFICED under ADA.
All the "handicapable" ever ASKED for was the ability to do their job if it meant getting a chair out of the way, a ramp to clime the three feet INTO the "glass geek room" and such. The WHOLE CONCEPT of ADA was to allow ANYONE to use the facilities they paid for or work in. COMPLETELY reasonable. However, in the hands of the sausage-crafters, much like Amtrak and Rensselaaer, it turned into a "pay this politician *CASH* or we're putting your ass out of business.
One would *THINK* after so many INCUMBENTS rattling their CRAP about how they're going to CREATE jobs, one would question why they DESTROYED so many before seeing the light. Nah, never mind ... vote for the incumbent. Alphas rule the world. Word. :)
No, the Deltas missed conditioning class :)
Notice, the Deltas wear green, too. :D
B"H
TO-GA! TO-GA!
ahem...sorry, you mentioned the Deltas...
:)
We can hope for the best for them, and bug Amtrak to better secure ROW.
Oh, so now its Amtrak's fault. If you idiot proof the world all you get are better idiots. Its best to nip the cycle in the bud.
I have little sympathy for these skateboard punks as they know damn well the risks they are taking and willing choose to disregard them. If anyone has seen Jackass or a CKY you know what I am talking about. Kids like this are all about taking stupid risks. Its like a drug, a cheap thrill. If they suceed they fall down laughing and hi-fiving. If they get hurt they laugh about it too. (Don't ask why teens think its fun to hurt themselves. It happened to me on at least one occasion with a rope swing and swinging into solid objects. There's some sort of group mentality thing involved. I can't explain it.) Anyway, after this I don't think they'll be laughing any more, but don't fool yourself. This wasn't anything close to a horrible accident. These punks were thrill seeking and they got burned. They are not worthy of your sympathy and it is most definitly not Amtrak's fault.
As another of my posts cxlearly states, I don't think it's Amtrak's fault. I do think securing the ROW is desirable.
It happened to me on at least one occasion with a rope swing and swinging into solid objects.
This would explain a few things. :-)
Sorry, couldn't resist...
-- David
Chicago, IL
I agree, Ron. It's time for those miserable AMTRAK and Conrail bastards to admit that catanary is too far dangerous to be used in populated areas. Either they should remove the catanary completely or be forced to provide paid escorts for all children walking or playing within 500 feet of railroad tracks. In this way, the railroads will relieve the parents of the unfair responsibility of having to supervise their children. In addition, each time a hole is found in a fence protecting the ROW, not only should the RR be fined but a senior manager should be fired until they get the message.
Remember Fenagle's 2nd law:
Someone else is always responsible when someone gets hurt.
Fenagle's third law says that if you build a fence, someone will try to cut a hole in it.
Amtrak didn't do anything wrong. But it's still worth the effort.
Geez. AGAIN? While our MEDIA is filling us full of Anna Nicole and mystery abductions, can't ANY of them in Pennsylvania do some STORIES on what can happen if you climb a damned boxcar? Sorry, but for the sheer NUMBER of these lately, I'd blame the media for not doing a "EXTRA SPECIAL DATELINE" on this. After all, we have the MAGIC formula of EVERY "DATERAPE MSNBC" ... VICTIMS! LIVE! (or USED to be) Sheesh.
OPERATION LIFESAVER doesn't get sheet for press either with their "don't be stupid on the tracks" ... but Jonbenet Ramsey still gets media exposure ... screw the LIVING who ain't got a clue yet ...
I remember back in grade school. We had two safety railroad videos. 4 grade was shown about messing with freights, locos, and siding switches. In 5 grade, it was all based on the LIRR, and more gruesome footage than the freight version. Needless to say, no matter what, I have no business on subway, or RR tracks. An only acception is that I go fishing at Breakneck Ridge, NY along Rte 9D and I have no choice but to cross the tracks here even though 80-90 mph trains zip right by me. Through time, a person can actually develope an extra sense by hearing the rails before a train is within a mile of your location. I can't explain it but it just happens. The "zinging" sound usually starts when a train is closer, but I guess through time and enough exposure to trains, you can hear the rails vibrate when a train is 1 to 2 miles away. Weird, isn't it?
Basic physics actually. But I wouldn't count on it to save your life.
"An only acception is that I go fishing at Breakneck Ridge, NY along Rte 9D and I have no choice but to cross the tracks here even though 80-90 mph trains zip right by me."
False statement. You do have a choice. You can choose to go fishing elsewhere (there's no shortage of good fishing spots on Long Island) or you can find a safer spot to cross and then double back. This may be beyond walking distance or even biking distance, but so be it.
When you trespass on tracks you must accept responsibility for doing so, but please don't say things like "I didn't have a choice." That's clearly not true.
BTW: How many of your neighbors would be willing to support you in asking the town council the county or the MTA to build a pedestrian bridge over the tracks? Then you could cross and go fishing whenever you wanted.
If I lived in the area, a majority would approve for it. Besides, I enjoy fishing there than out on Long Island. The scenery is to die for, the river, mountains, Bannerman's Island and the occasional FL9 that would moan by on an Upper Hudson run. The fishing is good here, too. Perch, catfish, strippers, and eels. Last year, my pals and I caught what we were told was a grouper, 40 lbs. No joke. And we were upset because we had no camera. It took the 4 of us to pull it out of the river. But you are right. It is dangerous, but it pays to know how the RR works. I remember as a kid, my father and sister were almost killed by a southbound SPV2000 1/4 0f a mile south of the Breakneck Tunnel. That was in 1983 by the little beach at Little Stoney Point. They both jumped out of the way in the nick of time( my sister's slipper wasn't so lucky).
Go for it. Organize a petition campaign and present it to the town council, copy to your county executive, state assemblyperson and senator. See if a state or county grant could help pay for it.
Like I mentioned, I would if I was a resident of Dutchess and/or Putnam County. But for arguments sake, I had my uncle who lives in Beacon NY gather a group to start a petition on the subject. I'm a NYC resident so I have no say in other county matters up North. He was more than happy to help out. Maybe we'll win on this one if enough get involved.
Good luck. You could actually save somebody's life that way, and make a lot of people happy, too.
WATCH your BUTT ... we LIKE you here and hope to see MORE of you. Trains are getting QUIETER and QUIETER ... and with the "high speed rail" mods coming as soon as we have an ECONOMY again, you won't hear the train UNTIL it hits you ... watch it ... seriously ...
I never turn my back for a minute.
I never turn my back for a minute.
By definition: you have to! If you be looking south, the one from the north will bite you int the....
No, not really. You can hear a gas-turbine locomotive from a mile away ;)
I was thinking in terms of all-electrics (NEC is VERY quiet until it's ON you) but yeah, up here out of electrified territory and little background noise, 2 to 5 miles away isn't out of the realm. More an issue of local background noise as to your chances. But yeah, things are getting quieter than the SD40's, and quickly so.
DAMN!! I don't know why these teens wanna play on the railcars and they see the wire there.
Whoever said teenagers were smart? We were teens ourselves and did almost the same, although we never went near live catenary or 3rd rail. But we've done some dumm things in our youth.
I know that, but I would atleast think they were smart enough 2 stay away from the power line.
It is really sad that is situation seems to be happening regularly. When I hear and read about this, I think about only one thing: "WHERE ARE THE PARENT(S) OF THESE KIDS!" Yes, folks, the parent(s). No one should even start blaming anyone else but them!...and I hope the parent(s) don't even think about suing, because I would love to give them an ear full of how they lets their kids run around where they should not or even tell them right from wrong. In both here and the Lynbrook situation, parent(s) are way too busy to tell there kids that ANY railroad property is OFF LIMITS. Funny, when you think about it, parent(s) teach their kids how to walk across busy intersections to avoid being run over, but they can't seem to tell them about the dangers of playing around railroad tracks and yards.
Parent(s) need to spend more time with their kids and less time playing golf and explain to them the dangers of these areas. You really can't except any railroad to spend billions of dollars in fencing equipment just because junior can't behave themselves. Why not take them to the local park and play catch?
Parent(s) need to spend more time with their kids and less time playing golf and explain to them the dangers of these areas. You really can't except any railroad to spend billions of dollars in fencing equipment just because junior can't behave themselves. Why not take them to the local park and play catch?
Perhaps their parents were busy managing Amtrak.
I doubt that highly. If parents spent time with their kids and less time trying to out do the world, maybe things would not be so messed up.
It may not have been an accident. Maybe they did not intend to survive this event.
Elias
Are you suggesting that they were trying to commit suicide?
Are you suggesting that they were trying to commit suicide?
Very Possible. I had to cut down a 14 year old who hung himself in a barn. Not nice, but it happens all of the time.
Clearly they were not on the roof by acciedent!
Elias
Gotta question. How did they manage to get on top of a boxcar in the first place? The ICC/FRA made all owners of interchange car that had roof walks remove them, plus a reasonable time to do it. Look at any freight train. You won't see a roof walk on anything.
Course, kids do manage to get to places adults can't/won't.
Many box cars retain full height ladders. Most coal, tank, grain and hopper cars also have full height ladders.
BTW, do you know why the FRA mandated the removal of the roofwalks? How are the brakemen suposted to stop the train?
Well, considering that the brake wheels/levers were relocated lower on the cars at the same time the roofwalks were removed...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The only cars that have roof walks are those that need them for loading and unloading. These are grain cars and tank cars. The article said that they were on a "BOX CAR", box cars do not have full length ladders or roof walks. They expended effort to climb up onto a trackway elevated 50 feet above ground level, and then expended more effort to climb up to the top of a box car with no full length ladders or roof walks.
And they brought thier skate board with them!???
And then the wire was SEVEN FEET above the car.
You cannot tell me this was an ACCIDEMT!
Elias
They probably wanted to climb on or swing on the wire like some sort of jungle gym. They were either uninformed about what the wire was or assumed the juice was off or that the wire was insulated like powerlines in residential areas.
Personally, I think the teens were dumb. Why should it be Amtrack's responsiblity to prevent this kind of stupid event. It's not a fact of desire to make the ROW safer. It's to be properly informed of the cuations and dangers.
I'm really sorry to say that, but I have really no mercy to these two guys, they are incredibly stupid to do that. However, how could they climb to the top of the freight train? I think they can't JUMP to the top of a moving train, it is more possible to enter in the yard.
Conclusion, Amtrak should increase the security of the yards, and build fences on all tracks where people are EASILY accesable to them. Beside, Amtrak should use the 2 teenagers and other railway trepassers to produce TV commercials for promoting railway safety. They would be a good warning to others.
I don't know when these kids nowadays will ever learn!! I mean is there not something better on a summer night two teenage boys can do other than to go play on top of railroad boxcars, or even play in any way on or near railroad tracks?? I think these communities need to start opening up community and activity centers again, and give these kids something better to do with their time other than something that is obviously as stupid as what they did!! And the railroads indeed need to better fence their properties, even increase railroad or local police patrols in and around the railroad right-of-way locations. Time and time I see kids, even grown people, hanging out on active railroad tracks like the tracks are a coffee house for all to chill out at!! This kind of thing unfortunately will happen again and again, because no one will ever learn about the dangers of playing by tracks.
One of the recurring themes in the various subthreads on this topic has been "Amtrak should do this" or "the police should do that" or "the community needs to offer this 'n' that" to keep people off the railroad tracks. To all that I say: bull. What has happened to the notion of teaching children responsibility? Where are the parents of these kids? Were they too busy with their own lives to bother taking any responsibility for the children that they brought into this world? As a parent I recognize that it is first and foremost MY responsibility to teach my children, be the subject reading, writing, arithmetic, morality, or common sense, and that the best way to teach them is by setting a good example. From where I sit it looks like the parents abdicated their responsibility on that score.
OK, enough preaching from this soapbox...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A lot of us are saying that Amtrak should isolate their ROW better because, from a practical standpoint, it's the right thing to do.
I'm not saying Amtrak did anything wrong, but your post represents a misguided cop-out. The fact is, not all parents behave rationally. No amount of ranting by you or anybody else will cure that. So be it.
If a fence will help protect an impulsive 8 year old from walking on active tracks, we should try it. What you're saying is that you're willing to sacrifice a kid's life to his/her parent's misdeed. I'm not willing to do that In addition, a fence with warning signs will help Amtrak in the event of a lawsuit.
Ultimately, parents are responsible for their kids. Amtrak isn't. No amount of blame-shifting on anybody's part will cure that. So be it.
Mvh Tim
Agreed.
A lot of us are saying that Amtrak should isolate their ROW better because, from a practical standpoint, it's the right thing to do.
I'm not saying Amtrak did anything wrong, but your post represents a misguided cop-out. The fact is, not all parents behave rationally. No amount of ranting by you or anybody else will cure that. So be it.
From a practical standpoint, Amtrak should not isolate their RoW better.
1. Maintenance of thousands of miles of RoW is not cheap. Maintenance of thousands of miles of RoW with fences are even more expensive. Some would argue the maintenance of fences are impractical.
2. If parents do not behave rationally, that is not Amtrak's problem. If they let their offsprings get killed, then that's their prerogative. In fact, it reduces such future occurances, if you believe stupidity is hereditary.
3. A fenced off RoW is a much more tempting proposition to stupid kids then a non-fenced RoW. I know. I'm a stupid kid. Stepping on bits of wet paving in your own back garden under your parents' supervision is no fun. Writing on a bit of sidewalk is brilliant fun, especially if you write obscene stuff.
I came from a country where by law all RoW must be fenced off. It is very difficult to prove in a lawsuit that the defendent (i.e. the railroad) did not neglect the RoW fence maintenance. Experience shows that juries tend to side with farmers and parents that cry boo hoo when their prized cows and prized kids are run over. So in fact, putting fences up will increase the railroad's liability as the failure to maintain the fences will be seen as negligence.
Economically, educating the kids is a lot cheaper, even if it became the railroad's responsibility to educate the kids. The railroad only needs to prove that the kid received the railroad-sponsored education programme to avoid being liable for the kid's death. If the kid chooses to ignore the education, that is his/her prerogative.
a fence with warning signs will help Amtrak in the event of a lawsuit.
Incorrect. See above.
The bottom line: people have the right to die. It's cheaper to educate than to engineer against stupidity.
AEM7
Yeah, but on operational trains, it messes with the engineer's head. Engineers understand that smacking a trespasser at 110MPH with an AEM-7 on a blind curve is not their fault. They also understand that they have been involved in an accident in which one party will never have the chance to apologize for the blood on the locomotive. The permanence of such an event would bother most human beings.
So you may be right, but it's not that simple.
It is only necessary to fence the ROW through a city or other heavily populated area. But then you also have to provide crossing points. Streets and overpasses work well in places where such exist.
But if you look at Dickinson (ND) there is no way for a pedestrian (or a motorist) to cross the tracks between Hwy 22 and State Street, a distance of one mile. Well, duh.... the trains parked there *are* a mile long! but try that in a *big* city and you will have to build all kinds of overpasses...
Kiddies should be held tightly by their mommies...
Ack! That reminds me of when I was selling Good Humors in Merrick. Mommy Tells Johnny to 'run home and get my purse.' An I just nochalantly reach up and grab the kid by the arm, as a car zooms by.
I says to him 'walk home and get the purse, AFTER you have looked both ways!'
Mommy stood there whit her jaw opend when she realized what just had happened.
Expect a train at any time..... etc.
"If parents do not behave rationally, that is not Amtrak's problem. If they let their offsprings get killed, then that's their prerogative. In fact, it reduces such future occurances, if you believe stupidity is hereditary."
In countries where life is cheap that may be appropriate. Not here in the USA. If you want to kill yourself - oh well; preferably do it before you have kids. But in the US the tradition is not to punish children for their parents' misdeeds. If you want to do that, you should pick yourself up and get on the next flight back to the old country.
"A fenced off RoW is a much more tempting proposition to stupid kids then a non-fenced RoW. I know. I'm a stupid kid. Stepping on bits of wet paving in your own back garden under your parents' supervision is no fun. Writing on a bit of sidewalk is brilliant fun, especially if you write obscene stuff. "
It'll still keep a lot of them off it.
"I came from a country where by law all RoW must be fenced off. It is very difficult to prove in a lawsuit that the defendent (i.e. the railroad) did not neglect the RoW fence maintenance. Experience shows that juries tend to side with farmers and parents that cry boo hoo when their prized cows and prized kids are run over. So in fact, putting fences up will increase the railroad's liability as the failure to maintain the fences will be seen as negligence."
Litigation experience in the US is comparable to virtually no other place on earth. Forget about the other country. You're here now.
"Economically, educating the kids is a lot cheaper, even if it became the railroad's responsibility to educate the kids."
OK, that we agree on.
" The railroad only needs to prove that the kid received the railroad-sponsored education programme to avoid being liable for the kid's death. If the kid chooses to ignore the education, that is his/her prerogative. "
Legally and ethically, in the USA, that is a false statement.
It's a good thing you didn't abandon your day job to practice law. I'd hate to spend my unemployment insurance money on you after you were disbarred.
"...If the kid chooses to ignore the education, that is his/her prerogative. "
Legally and ethically, in the USA, that is a false statement.
Wait a minute. So that means if I'm under 21, I could find a gun and kill someone and not be liable, because the person who had the gun did not secure it properly. Furthermore, I could rob a police officer off his gun and then kill him with it, and I would be entirely blameless?
Damn, I just had my 21st birthday. There were a few people I really needed to kill.
Of course, I understand that if they can prove that I understood something is wrong when I did it, I would be liable. But exactly how would you prove in court that I knew murder was wrong? All the TV shows seem to suggest that murder is commonplace and shooting isn't really wrong, especially when in Forrest Gump the agents shoot the enemy dead and never get punished.
AEM7
Your flippant and frivolous post purposefully ignores the distinctions made between adult and juvenile responsibility in the law.
I chose to illustrate the point with a child in the very concrete stage of development because this is what actually happened on the LIRR recently, and to make the point that, from society's point of view in the US, it may be better to build a fence than to bury a 10-year old.
Now, in countries which use child soldiers to fight the battles of warlords or corrupt governments, it would no doubt be desirable to minimize govt. responsibility as much as possible, so kids don't become a burden on society.
On the other hand, perhaps they should have a supply of as many children as possible, to be used as expendable resources in whatever battles are being fought. The legal system can be structured to achieve this.
Then again, perhaps there it is better for "stupid" kids to die early (so you can spend more resources training the ones who do better in combat).
Your flippant and frivolous post purposefully ignores...
My "flippant & frivolous post" delibrately illustrates a point that many may have missed. The only difference between the action of a kid who shoots someone and a kid who kills himself playing with high-tension catenary is the identity of the victim. What about the kid who taunts his enemy into touching the 12,500V wire? Is Amtrak liable? What if the kid provided the ladder with which the "enemy" person reaches the top of the boxcar?
the distinctions made between adult and juvenile responsibility in the law.
So, you're telling me that killing is something that a juvenile can be punished for. And killing oneself isn't something a juvenile can be considered liable for. Fair enough. Therefore, juveniles should not be allowed to cross highways except by adult supervision? Highway department should put in turnstiles at crosswalks and only those with an adult pass should be allowed to proceed?
I'm making a very good point here. Highway crossing safety is achieved through education. No one sues and wins against a driver who is not drunk and driving under the speed limit for running down a kid who runs out in front of traffic. Railroad safety can be achieved (much more cheaply) the same way.
I have very little respect for U.S. traditions. I have very little respects for traditions in general, which is why I left my former residence. I came to the U.S. for its lack of respect for traditions, except for the flag and all that patriotic stuff.
to make the point that, from society's point of view in the US, it may be better to build a fence than to bury a 10-year old...
In which case, society should bear the cost of the fencing. There should be a poll tax, assessed equally to everyone, for the fencing of railroad ROWs nationwide. Railroads should not be liable for what "the society" considers necessary. I can tell you, there are many people out there who considers railroad fencing a lot less important than the fude on their table. Myself included.
AEM7
"In which case, society should bear the cost of the fencing."
In the case of Amtrak, we would. That's fine.
"I have very little respect for U.S. traditions. I have very little respects for traditions in general, which is why I left my former residence. I came to the U.S. for its lack of respect for traditions, except for the flag and all that patriotic stuff. "
And our Constitution lets you enjoy that.
Which country did you come from? I'm curious.
But in the US the tradition is not to punish children for their parents' misdeeds.
But in this case it's the children's misdeeds and the parents are being blamed for them.
Unfortunately, in this country children are always considered to be stupid and irresponsible, and for some reason when children do something wrong, it's their parents fault.
It might be the parents fault that they didn't teach their children the right way to conduct themselves, but it is largely the children's fault for not using common sense.
These aren't even children, they're teenagers, and they should no better. Their stupidity finally got around to punishing them.
"But in this case it's the children's misdeeds and the parents are being blamed for them."
No, we are referring to lack of parental involvement in educating their kids - resulting in tragedy.
"Unfortunately, in this country children are always considered to be stupid and irresponsible, and for some reason when children do something wrong, it's their parents fault.
It might be the parents fault that they didn't teach their children the right way to conduct themselves, but it is largely the children's fault for not using common sense. "
Kids at the "concrete" stage of development (preteens and early teens) cannot be held to that standard of behavior as a group. They haven't matured enough. It's up to us as a society to see to it that they have a chance to grow up to meet the standard.
Kids at the "concrete" stage of development (preteens and early teens) cannot be held to that standard of behavior as a group. They haven't matured enough. It's up to us as a society to see to it that they have a chance to grow up to meet the standard.
Actually, I agree with that. After all, you're quoting results from research. But the problem of changing behaviour in the "concrete" stage of development is not to engineering everything to be idiot proof. The solution is to change the behaviour as a group, through education. For example, pretty much no kids take a knife and delibrately stick it in to the electrical supply. Because all the kids think that's stupid. It's the education, silly!
Also, one must avoid taking too much freedom away from those kids that have come out of the "concrete" stage sooner than others. Thus age is not a reasonable standard for defining responsibility. (Only if you believe in Piagettian Theory of Development do you believe that age is a reasonable definition, and even Piaget himself suggests that soem kids come out of it earlier than others, and his theory is based on anecdotal cases portions of which had been refuted through statistical sampling.) Thus the idea of a turnstile at highway crossings isn't a good one, not if the "turnstile pass" is based on age.
AEM7
I fully agree with your comments about education.
However, education is often not enough by itself. If you recall the value of "defense in depth" whereby two different mechanisms are used to pursue a goal, you see that this is often desirable.
Example: You can tell a two-year old "No! Don't!" when referring to approaching a staircase. But you also should put a gate across it or other barrier in the event that the child's curiosity overcomes your instructions.
Unfortunately, some 10 year olds can be that way about RR tracks.
And I would certainly be emphatic about the fencing when an immediate hazard like an energized third-rail is present.
Your point about variability in maturation is a good one.
And I would certainly be emphatic about the fencing when an immediate hazard like an energized third-rail is present.
I remember the tracks in Merrick, before they were elevated.
Their *was* a fence, and it was between the two tracks, so that you could not cross the tracks to get to the other side. But when there was no train in the station, the tracks and the third rail were right there where anybody could touch them. I remember my parents telling me not to touch the third rail because there was 600 volts of electricity in them. And I did take them at their word. Didn't stop me from putting pennies on the tracks, but I never gave the third rail a second thought.
Of course you couldn't fence in the tracks, cause then how would the people get off of the train (duh!)
Elias
Of course you couldn't fence in the tracks, cause then how would the people get off of the train (duh!)
The solution to this is to use high-level platforms. Not only are high-level platforms better for ingress and egress, they also discourage people from straying onto the tracks or crossing the tracks. The reason is because with a high level platform, the danger of getting trapped on the tracks while a train approaches are apparent to anybody with any sense.
I agree that fencing should be provided around residential areas and places where significant number of people are likely to be, subject to the condition that it is paid for through property taxes on the adjacent residential properties and not railroad funds. It makes no sense to fence off ROWs round where I come from (farming regions in Ohio, not Boston)
AEM7
Elevated platforms are a great asset. They perform exactly as you state; moreover they also provide part of an ADA access plan, along with ramps or an elevator.
The solution to this is to use high-level platforms.
And eliminate grade crossings etc.etc.
Great idea, while we squabble over who will pay for these improvements.
Clearly it should be the locale through which the rail line passes.
Afterall, in most cases the rail ike was there first, and if it wasn't then it was probably built elevated etc. anyway.
There was this elected critter in Nassau County who opposed elevating the LIRR through Mineola. Then his daughter was killed at a grade crossing. Hello? Anybody home?
Elias
And eliminate grade crossings etc.etc. Great idea, while we squabble over who will pay for these improvements.
Actually, I don't see why there should be much squabble. Well at least not about the high-level platforms. High-level platforms pay for itself in a matter of a few years in terms of reduced dwell time and increased patronage due to the fact that it is a better facility. If I were running a carrier, one of the first things in my capital plan would be to upgrade places to high level platforms. ADA compliance I don't give a shit about, but I want to be able to load and unload people quickly at heavily used stations. Even better, make it like Hamilton on the NEC. You drive and you park and you walk directly onto the high level platform (i.e. the railroad is sunk into the ground, and the platforms are at ground level).
As for the grade crossing improvements, that's something that the local community will have to deal with (and I fully expect recompense for my lost business due to the works).
If there are any squabble about whether high level platforms are economic or whether grade crossings should be eliminated, my solution would be to abandon the railroad station if the local community refuse to contribute to funds that will construct the high level platform (if I don't have a business case within the company) and as for grade crossings, well it's either abandon the rail line or have the local community pay for grade crossing improvements out of the highway improvement funds. As long as you are not afraid to threaten abandonment, local communities will pay for almost anything.
AEM7
"ADA compliance I don't give a shit about, but I want to be able to load and unload people quickly at heavily used stations. "
Are you as piss-poor an engineer as you are a lawyer (you've already indicated you don't care much about the fate of other human beings - must be that other country you came from)? ADA compliance actually helps your cause a great deal here.
"Even better, make it like Hamilton on the NEC. You drive and you park and you walk directly onto the high level platform (i.e. the railroad is sunk into the ground, and the platforms are at ground level)."
That does work very well (and I favor it if money is no object) - but raising the platform and putting in a ramp to walk onto it is less expensive than excavating a whole rail bed.
"If there are any squabble about whether high level platforms are economic or whether grade crossings should be eliminated, my solution would be to abandon the railroad station..."
A high-stakes game best played not very often. In the US, that tactic can work very well, or it can come back to bite you later. Extraordinary mature judgement is required prior to doing so.
Are you as piss-poor an engineer as you are a lawyer...
I've just actually been an operator of railroad stuff. (I think) I'm helpful, but not if I have to go way out of my way. I don't believe in a compliance-based regime. I'm willing to stop a train to set-down a passenger who has missed a stop or has requested a special stop if it is safe to do so and my train is not particularly late, but I'm unwilling to do that for anyone, disabled or not, if my train is late or if for whatever reason I need to clear the track by a certain time. I will help anyone to board a train -- disabled or not -- but not if I have to build a special ramp to help anyone board my train. If there is space, I'll let anyone bring excessive baggage on board... if the wheelchair won't fit because it's crowded, then the disabled person can forget about getting on the train. I'll send him in a taxi, or have him wait for the next train.
Economics, practicality and commonsense dictate what happens to people, not some stupid legislation.
raising the platform and putting in a ramp to walk onto it is less expensive than excavating a whole rail bed.
Not by much, especially if the station is a sunk cost. Raising platforms would probably set you back around $200,000 per platform, and it can easily go over $1 million for a simple station refurbishment. If all you have to do is sink the tracks, it will maybe cost $2 million per site.
A high-stakes game best played not very often. In the US, that tactic can work very well, or it can come back to bite you later.
I'd be interested in hearing how it might come back to bite you later. Sure, it's a high-stakes game. The problem with some management (e.g. Warrington) is the refusal to play high-stakes games. A regime that does not take reasonable risks result in a country like where I used to live...
AEM7
"I've just actually been an operator of railroad stuff. (I think) I'm helpful, but not if I have to go way out of my way. I don't believe in a compliance-based regime. I'm willing to stop a train to set-down a passenger who has..."
"Reasonable" is part of ADA legislation in the US. Taken as a whole, your plan for how to operate a passenger railroad is illegal in this country, and for good reason - you cannot perform a service to a citizen if you happen to feel like it today.
"I'd be interested in hearing how it might come back to bite you later. Sure, it's a high-stakes game. The problem with some management (e.g. Warrington) is the refusal to play high-stakes games."
Try offending a senior member of Congress sometime and see what happens toyour appropriation next year...
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. I'm saying the person doing it must be very well informed, shrewd and capable of exercising exceptionally mature judgment. There are more times when it should not be done.
you cannot perform a service to a citizen if you happen to feel like it today.
Actually, that isn't true. All services are provided at management discretion, for example intoxicated citizens can be barred from malls and other privately owned public spaces. I'm not clear on the common carrier obligation, but if there is some kind of equality crap written into it, it's about time the laws were changed.
Try offending a senior member of Congress sometime and see what happens toyour appropriation next year...
If I have an appropriation. The way I talk about running the railroad is how Union Pacific runs theirs. They are pretty successful at what they want to do.
With enough credibility with the politicos, there's not much ONE member of congress could do. After all congressmen are ultimately answerable to their own constituency and not that of their best friend's.
AEM7
"Actually, that isn't true."
Yes, it is.
"All services are provided at management discretion, for example intoxicated citizens can be barred from malls and other privately owned public spaces."
But management discretion is not allowed on the basis of race, gender, religion and physical disability (ADA requires reasonable accommodation).
" I'm not clear on the common carrier obligation, but if there is some kind of equality crap written into it, it's about time the laws were changed. "
I agree. All people who come from your old country, as well as anybody else management doesn't like, should be banned from riding.
"If I have an appropriation. The way I talk about running the railroad is how Union Pacific runs theirs. They are pretty successful at what they want to do. "
They don't want to carry passengers. End of story.
If all you have to do is sink the tracks, it will maybe cost $2 million per site.
How does this help the grade crossings???
Done properly, auto traffic now uses an overpass above the tracks.
The tracks would be sunk low enough so that the roadway could be raised over the tracks, but not to a dramatic height. A ramp would be required to allow people to descend to platform height.
(i.e. the railroad is sunk into the ground, and the platforms are at ground level).
ROFLMAO
Here's the SNOW shovel.... watch that third rail! Hehehehehe.......
Elevate train line, let snow fall on people below.
Elias
No, but the lights are on.
:0)
But these children aren't 8, 10 or even 12, they were 17 and were already well beyond the concrete stage of development.
They should have known better, and their doing this is ENTIRELY their fault.
If this was an eight year old, then we could blame the parents for letting their improperly educated child out into the wild, but educated or not, you don't climb up on boxcars when you're 17, it's just common sense.
Did someone delete a discussion under this post? What did it say? I remember seeing lots of posts (didn't read them) and now I can't read it. I'm pissed.
AEM7
And in the message listings there's a gap between 370483 and 370485 - there's definitely been some editing today! Oh yes - and there's no landmark post 300000 - bit of a shame really for the number snipers.
The post #370,484 may have been my posting subject "Moo" with the message "Hi Kevin :-)" cuz I was bored at work.
If that is the only message that is missing from the last couple days, then I do apologize for thinking someone had deleted the part of the Responsibility thread.
The post #300,000 has been previously discussed. Also other posts on rubbing arms on the subway had been previously discussed. See under "Post 300,000" in the archives.
AEM7
How come you put in commas? In order to find the post you are refering to you have to search for "post 300000" in the archives, not "post 300,000"
No.
The original post 300,000 posted by Zman is under "300000" and is at:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=300316
My discussion of post 300,000 by me is under "300,000" and at:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=366848
AEM7
None that I recall reading... but that doesn't mean Dave didn't (AFAIK he's the only one who can delete anything...).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Irony is the parents will sue and win at the cost of the rail company. It's sad how kids can do stupid junk and the blame is on the peop[le they do the stupid stuff to!
I was getting home from work and my boss was driving me home it was 12:00 am and turning onto Broadway I saw the Delivery of the R-143, my boss was shocked when I identified the car type, I was too far away to see. Then when going up Van Courtlandt Avenue and going on to Sedgewick I saw the R-142 car being delivered, it's number was either 7702 or 7706. It was awesome seeing that probably my last time, but I enjoyed it.
Cool. Nice experience considering you're a fellow railfan.
I passed by Cortland Street station on the X1 Bus today. I noticed on the entrances to the uptown side of the station, It had the following train bullets:
N R W
My question - is the W being changed on routing? - This is a new sign too that I saw.
I have another question to add:
When will this station be restored? And how is the restoration phase of the station in the 1 and 9 lines going?
The 1/9 service will resume, and the N, R (W?) BMT Courtlandt station will reopen Sept 15, 2002.
There have been a few mentions on here that N/W will swap late-night and weekends beginning in Sept. W will be the through service to Astoria via tunnel at those times and N will only go to 36 or Pacific. The messages should be available in the archive.
Since the N line is a veteran to the system, why should the "rookie" W train take over the run? I always thought W was only temporary while B trains are regulated to Manhattan and the Bronx. Might as well bring the K back to replace or run with the C and E trains.
The W is going full-time because the West End will be the only line to run all the way through to Coney Island after September 8.
--Sea Beach (N) continues to go to 86 Street.
--Culver (F) will be turned at Avenue X.
--Brighton Local (Circle Q) will be turned at Brighton Beach.
This is to accommodate the Stillwell Ave. terminal reconstruction.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
The W really isn't a rookie, it is merely a renamed B. During the first time the north side was closed, they had two Bs and two Ds, orange and yellow. Having two trains with the same designations was too confusing according to the riding public, so they came up with the W, Q, and Q (so we still have duplicates!).
Also, on September 8, the W will become the only service to Stillwell Avenue, so that is why it will run to Manhattan.
The W really isn't a rookie, it is merely a renamed B
The "W" is really a resurrection of the "T", which predated the pffffft "B" (desecrator of the West End Route).
I'm enjoying it while it lasts ;-)
I am aware of that but since it is in place of the B, that is what I said it was a descendent of.
It's a shame they didn't use the letter T for the West End this time: firstly, because the West End is the T Line; secondly because it would've left the W free for the second Brighton service instead of having the circle/diamond Q stuff.
It would be good to turn the to W, but using T would be too much money to spend since the R68/68As dont have T on the roll signs. The only trains to have the T is R32s and R38s, but the designation is just a T in a white circle with no route or destination. For more info go to http://members.aol.com/bdmnqr2/linehistory.html.
They could have put T on the roll sign. The new signs for the R68s were ordered because of the MannyB flip.
They could have pasted T on the roll sign similar to pasting Q diamond over yellow D on the R40 slants.
but using T would be too much money to spend since the R68/68As dont have T on the roll signs.
I don't think MJ or NX were on the rollsigns - a sign with MJ or NX on it was hung on the front of the train.
>>I don't think MJ or NX were on the rollsigns - a sign with MJ or NX on it was hung on the front of the train.<<
Some R-27/30's did have roll signs with (RJ) and (NX). I have one, bought from the Transit Museum some twenty years ago. The signs were only white letters on black background and were cloth instead of mylar. It was an add-on since the original signs didn't have them.
That's speaking for the front route signs, not the side route sign which I don't have.
Bill "Newkirk"
IIRC those particular signs didn't have subscripts, either. In other words, there was no "Broadway" beneath the NX or "Nassau St." beneath the RJ. The QJ signs on the R-27/30s didn't have a subscript, either.
The N will be cut back to Pacific at all times except rush hours and midday weekdays. During times at which there is no N service outside Brooklyn, the W will operate local to Astoria via the Montauge Street Tunnel.
Just in case anyone is interested, I have put a custom-painted San Francisco Muni PCC by Corgi up on eBay. It's in the whte/red/yellow/brown "Landor" paint scheme as many of the buses still are painted.
Item number 1758078317 if you've interested.
BMdoobieW just called me from the Bronx. He got off the shuttle at Times Square and saw a Redbird 2 train pass by on the mainline. He took a 3 express to 96th where he caught up with the 2, which he took up to Intervale to get a photo. I assume we'll see it later this evening.
omg.. yes ! keep some there until setember for me ............
after that .......( oh well ) ..........!!
always the 7...
oh yea ......the # 7 express !!! .........wooooooooo
Nothing is written in stone by TA....there will be odd Redbirds in service BUT they will probably not come back for inspection. 239th track 67 had four Redbird married pairs for inspection by 180th Street crews...and empty space not taken up by a #2 married pair. 239ths #6 inspection crew is doing vacation fill-ins and troubles. 180th has a different system...backfill/troubles...meaning that the assignment requires you to fill in for absent inspectors OR chase trainset troubles all day long. I 'deep sixed' records of most of the 243 married pairs on a list today, removing the last inspection reports from the files. CI Peter
I'm sooooo hardcore. How many of YOU have chased a Redbird...and caught it? And mind you I had somewhere to be at 7:00pm and I blew it off to get this photo. And the photo is half-decent. I love NYC!
Taken by me, at Intervale Av at around 7:00pm, on 8/12/02. This is the arse end of the #2 Redbird train traveling nb, which is away from me.
--Brian
Are the headlights on or is that an optical illusion?
They aren't on. Turn the brightness down on your screen. Or adjust the contrast or something. It does look like the red tail-lights aren't on. But I'm sure they are...unless they're broke! Heh heh. Heaven forbid.
--Brian
BTW, you're looking at 9107 and 8869 was on the head end. This is for those of you keeping score at home. You know who you are.
--Brian
OH MY GOD YES !! KEEP THEM THERE FOR ME THE SECOND WEEK OF SETEMBER!
SORRY I HAVE 2 USE CAPITAL LETTERS I AM SO HAPPY!!
OH YEA OH YEA !! MAKE MY DAY!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPEEEEEE!!!!
Nice pic.
B"H
I was coming home from work one evening last week (maybe thursday or friday, can't remember for sure), and accidentally got on a 2 train at franklin, signed as a 2 and bound for flatbush. I looked up and realized that I was on a 2, and not a 1 as expected! I was rather surprised, as i've never seen a 62 on the 2. A 62 on the 5, yes, but not on the 2! Anyhow, the neat part is that for some reason, the C/R popped the doors open again for a second and I managed to slither out just in time. Serves me right for not paying attention!
-Yitz
I remember back in the late 80's when they were delivering the R-62a's, I've seen one train coming out of the barn with the 2 sign on it. It looked funny considering but that was the last I seen that. I bet that roll sign was the cleanest yet.
I saw the same thing last week. I was leaving Gun Hill Road going n/b at 6:30 pm when I saw an R-62 that was in service as a 2 train.
I saw an R-62A train signed up as a 2 sitting in Unionport Yard in the Bronx on Sunday.
Are you sure it wasn't a R-62A??? I've never seen the R-62 on any line other than the 4 and Shuttle.
Wayne
239th track 67 today...four married pairs for for 180th crews...and one married pair for 239th #2. So I ask WHASSUP??? Turns out #2 is more than two weeks behind in Redbird inspection. By 9AM, 180th crew #2 is pulled....thin wheels....failed the #485 gauge. Ambient temerature is about 100 degrees...Immoduium AD and Phazyme Ultra are modern medical miracles when the amount of cold water you consume is far beyond the weight of your 'Buster Browns.' CI Peter
At least one Redbird train is out there on the 2 again today. I got two pictures at 86th. So far so good.
#2's will run Redbirds till the flavor in the chewing gum is lost. 239th will collect the used chewing gum to provide 180th Street crews with the tools to maintain existing Redbirds...unless the crew delights in the flavor of 'used gum.' CI Peter
Bondo shortage, eh? :)
I was going to say....
That was put well. Thanks.
--Brian
I made a connection with a Redbird 2 yesterday. Yes, David Greenberger, it was sent down the express track. Only from 96-72Sts. I looked at the car #s and noticed it was a set from the 5.
I was waiting for the R2 at chester Transportation Center recently; a variety of trains passed me on the corridor while I was waiting.
One southbound Amtrak train, obviously a long-distance one from the mix of cars I saw, was pulled by a pair of Genesis locos. It appeared to be moving at least as fast as the Metroliners (only there was a throaty roar about it). You couldn't hear it, though, until it was very near.
So Genesis is probably capable of 110+ on the NEC at least. I don't know if Chester has a speed restriction (the train does hit a curve south of the station).
I thought the only diesels operating through Philly were those headed for Pittsburgh and Chicago, or the NJT Atlantic City line. Doesn't every other train use electric power until it switches over in DC (or New Haven for those trains not capable of 25,000 volt operation)?
To The List:
We have an ID on one R-40M train at Coney Island:
4450-4455, 4458/4459, 4462/4463 (one 10-car train).
It has definitely been on the N.
Can anyone be COMPLETELY CERTAIN it was also on the Q (either one)?
Thanks for your assistance.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
I haven't seen it on either flavor of the Q, but it was on the N today (August 12, 2002). I rode it a whopping one stop :-)
David
I saw it on the N going uptown at Union Square around 2 PM. Bizarre sight, seeing a 10 car train of solid R40M's. They haven't run like that since they were GOH'ed.
Does this mean some of CI's R32's are headed elsewhere?
I don't think I've ever seen a solid R-40M consist. They've been intermixed with R-42s for so long they're probably not used to being by themselves.:)
They were in solid sets after returning from their GOH in 1988. But by 1995, they were thoroughly mixed with R42's. From 89-95, the R40M's ran almost exclusively on the J or L....never the M.
If I remember my August ERA bulletin correctly, the CI R-32's went up to Jamaica for service on the E and occasionally the F.
Some are still in CI....running on the N.
They can stay where they're at. I rather an R-40 slant on the "N" any day of the week :o)
Sorry, but an R32 belongs on the N. That's where they always used to run when I was kid.
The slants on the N seem so out of place. Put them back on the F.
To me, the slants belong on the B. The N is the only train where nothing looks bizarre on it to me, because I've seen R32's, R40's, R46's and R68's on it at any time. The F will always be R46 domain. I've ridden on nothing but those cars on the F, save for a few R32 trips in 1990/1 and 1994.
It would be cool to see the slants back on the A again. It's been 20 years or so since their removal.
I may be a product of the 80's, but I agree with you on that. For some reason I can't get out of the "late 80's - early 90's" mode of what trains should run on each line. I guess that is because those were my high school and college years, when I rode the subway the most. In my mind the:
A should be R44
B should be R40 slants (it was 100% slant, and I can't picture anything else ruling that line)
C should be green R10's
D should be R68's
E don't remember riding it much, but I think it was R44's
F should be R46
G should be R46
H (well it ran back then and was R10's)
J should be trashed R16 and R27-30 and blue doored R42's
M - same as J
L - same as J
N R68
The other lines I don't remember too well from that time (except for the various redbirds and R62's on the IRT lines.
I don't remember where I saw the R32-38's, I guess they were almost everywhere - I even remember riding them on the M in the mid 80's.
I guess it's all because of age and what we remember. It looks like I'm a little older than the both of you.
The slants broke in on the F prior to the R44's and R46's, so that's where I remember them.
On the N, it was R32's. Same for B, and then the R38's made an appearance before the slants appeared. For the D, it was R32's with the occassional R1-9 and R42. On the QJ, R27-R30.
Did someone say that they were riding on the circle Q during the week? I don't think that the Mods have the Q diamond decal in the roll signs yet. The slants have it, but not the mods.
I agree with you. I also remember certain car classes associated with certain lines:
A - R-10s, slant R-40s plus a very occasional R-1/9 train
AA - R-1/9s, R-32s
B - R-32s
CC - R-1/9s, R-10s
D - R-1/9s, R-32s
E - R-1/9s, R-38s, slant R-40s
F - R-1/9s, slant R-40s
GG - R-1/9s
JJ - R-27/30s
KK - R-7/9s
LL - BMT standards, R-7/9s, R-42s
N - R-32s, R-27/30s
Q - R-32s, slant R-40s
QB - R-27/30s
QJ - R-27/30s, R-42s
RR - R=27/30s, R-32s
T - R-32s (yes, I remember the T)
I would agree with you if the R-32's were still "as we knew them," by this I mean before the GOH when they had blue doors, axiflow fans, and paper signs in front. Thinking back to what a SubTalker said the other day, they have become "Frankentrains", not at all like what they were previously. MK really did a number on them. Soon, they will be the oldest trains in service, my hope is that they will stay on the "E" for awhile yet.
R32's will be an extinct animal on the BMT very soon. The R40M will replace them in the southern divison. All CI assigned R32's will be reassigned to Jamaica Yard with Jamaica transfering some Phase 1's to Pitkin.
No more R-32s on the N then. Bummer.
Here, here. The R-32s and the N are synonimous to me, much the same as the R-10s on the A. Now I know the R-32s have served virtually every B Division route in their illustrious careers, but to me they will always be BMT cars and then N line cars. The Q is a close runner-up.
I have seen a set of R40Ms on the circle Q. I don't have the numbers but am sure that it was a Q circle because it went over the bridge and also had a nice Q circle on the end sign.
I operated same train on the Q Diamond Friday 4455 was north Motor
Seen it last night also. No door enabler.
Just wondering, is there any timetable on when the redbirds will disappear for good? i'm not that informed on the status of the NYC subway and unfortunately won't be able to make it up there this summer before i start my freshman year at UMCP cuz my mom's going in for surgery real soon :-( I have a feeling that the R160's will put the redbirds away for good.
Hopefully the next time i step foot in NYC, there will still be some redbirds left. Thanks for reading.
The last day any Redbird will run...will NEVER be engraved in stone!
Redbirds will continue in RTO service until there is a sufficient number of R142s available in reserve for trainsets taken out of service. That date is anyones guess. CI Peter
It should be sometime in the spring of 2003 if delivery schedules hold. But, as "Juice" said, the exact date is anybody's guess.
David
So despite all once the R-142/142a order has been completed, they won't keep any redbirds as spares? I think that would suck. They have some good ones you know. Those leftover would go out like the 30's did in 1993.:( I miss those cars very much. At least we have one at my old High School.:) They should donate a Redbird to Transit Tech. Those have A/C for the students to learn on.
I've been saying for a long time that the best of the Redbirds should be kept for fleet expansion. Yes, I know that the R-142(A) order is large enough to allow for modest service increases, but at least one line needs much more than a modest service increase. At the very least, the extra cars could be stored on the property so, if five years from now, the TA decides to increase service, the cars will be available.
But that's not the plan. A handful of Redbirds will assume various roles around the system but none are planned to remain in passenger service.
Yes, I know that the R-142(A) order is large enough to allow for modest service increases, but at least one line needs much more than a modest service increase.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And what line would that be?
What, haven't you read any of my posts in the past year or two? The 1 (or 1/9). Really, it doesn't need many more cars if short-turns at 137th are reinstated -- south of 137th it needs a major boost but north of 137th it could afford to lose some service (and, from what I hear, reducing service at the north end would ease delays into the terminal) -- but there appears to be a good deal of reluctance to making that change. (Why? From everything I've seen, the pre-1989 service pattern -- no skip-stop and alternate rush hour trains turning at 137th -- made more sense than the current pattern. So why not restore it? The 1989 change was a worthwhile experiment but it didn't work in the end.)
You're saying us 191 Street'ers can use less service? Are you nuts??? I would get awful mad if I had to get off my nice cool train at 137 St to wait for the next packed train. Oh yeah, I've never riden 1/9 Skip Service and I'm leaving the Heights on Friday so I'll shut up now.
--Brian
This is one of my favorite subjects on this board. The 1 (I will not acknowledge the 9) is my home train - 238 station.
Actually there are several valid points addressed here.
1) The 7th Avenue local needs more service on its southern end, where the northern boundry of the "southern end" is, is hard to say; could be anywhere from 157 to Dyckman. And therein lies the problem. Short turning trains would provide more service on the southern end, but at what point can we do that? 137 had been the point where 1's had been short turned before the woeful skip/stop began. I think 137 is too far south to short turn trains, too many people use it above 137. You should see how crowded that platform gets when skip/stop was running and people had to wait at 137 for the correct train (1 or 9). The problem would be much worse if you short turned every other train at 137.
2) The 1 train suffers from chronic delays at the 242 VCP terminal. Most evenings, you can be delayed while trains wait to get into the terminal. This backup can begin anywhere from 215 Street north. And can occur anywhere from 4PM to after 8PM. So, cutting service at the northern end could actually be "addition through subtraction".
Now it would seem that both could be addressed by short turning trains, but the question then becomes, where? It was done at 137, so that is physically possible, but I don't think the line north of 137 can live with a 50% service reduction. Maybe short turning 1/4 to 1/3 of the trains at 137 would be a workable compromise. It would provide more trains for the busy upper west side down to South Ferry, take some of the excess trains away from the overcrowded 242 VCP terminal. Often a large increase is not needed, a relatively small increase in service could provide remarkable results. I'm not basing this on any research, just my impression. One must also consider how many more trains can the southern end accomidate. I'm sure that on paper, more trains could be accomidated on the 7th Ave local. But we see those trains bunching up and skipping stops regularly. Maybe a few extra trains would relieve overcrowding, station dwell time, thereby allowing more trains to operate smoothly on this line.
Or do we stay with the concept of short turning 50% of the trains, but at a point further north?
My observations show me that large number of passengers exit at Dyckman street. By the time the train leaves Dyckman, it is usually at no more than 25% of capacity. So, could Dyckman be the short turn point? The line goes back to 3 tracks just north of the station, I would think the middle track could be used to turn trains. It appears that the track layout is basically the same as 137, where we know trains can be turned. Also, the current weekend GO has trains turning at 215, so.............
Interesting topic, it seems this is one place the TA could really improve service with a minimum expenditure of cash.
Politics! Unfortunately, politics play a major role in the decision making process.
To those passengers who live north of 137th, their service is being cut, so they'll complain to their congressman, or whoever, and the problem will be addressed. Honestly, I'm not so sure that these turnaround trains at 137 are a good idea. Realistically, a turnaround train which terminates at 137 would have to make a station stop, the C/R would have to announce "Last stop, everybody off the train" 100 times, and still there would be a "package" on the train. Then the C/R and T/O would have to clean out the train, potentially causing delays in n/b service. N/B 5 trains terminating at 238 cause delays on the 2 line for the very same reason.
But you're 100% correct when you say that overcrowding is a serious issue on the 1 line. Conditions have been better since the 2 was rerouted to the local track, but things will return to normal on 9/15. Let's see what happens then.
But is their service really being cut? If skip-stop is eliminated at the same time as 137th short-turns are reinstated, most stations north of 137th will actually end up with more service than they have now. The folks way up north would be better off with less service so they don't get backed up waiting to get into the terminal. They'd still be left with some of the most frequent service per capita in the system.
Really, the only problem I see is with clearing out trains at 137th. But other lines have similar problems and they survive. If necessary, a small army of platform C/R's would solve the problem -- an expense, yes, but less of an expense than running excess trains all the way to the Bronx.
The problem is not just with the overcrowding but with the way it's handled. Does it really make any sense to routinely bypass the four busiest 1/9-only stops to maybe save a minute or two in getting to stations up north that see a fraction of the ridership? Those four stops have greater ridership than the entire line north of 137th. Could someone please take a look at conditions on the hot, narrow NB platform at 72nd during the afternoon rush as four 2/3's dump much of their loads only to be followed by a 1/9 that's skipping local stops also? Does there have to be a crowd-induced 12-9 before anyone will admit there's a problem?
Couldn't they make the relay "revenue"? What I would do is announce when the train is leaving 137th Street to be relayed, "Attention customers, this train will return to the 137th Street station momentarily."
Not unless the train doesn't stop at all at either the NB or SB platform (which would make it difficult to continue past that point; there's no crossunder there). The point of the rule against allowing passengers through the relay, AIUI, is that the T/O, who has to walk the length of the train, shouldn't have to risk running into a dangerous passenger on an otherwise empty train. It's not just a matter of the announcement.
The new T/O could board on the SB end, new C/R in the middle, and the change occurs in the relay. Then the T/O doesn't have to walk the train. As for the crossover, I am sure they can find a way to do it. If they did it before skip stop started, they can do it now.
I'm afraid passengers aren't going to be allowed to stay on through the relay, like it or not.
A crossunder would be an expensive undertaking. There can't be a crossover; the platforms are directly below the surface. Besides, forcing passengers to cross under to continue their trips would be very unfriendly. As a practical matter, the train has to stop both before and after the relay.
One of the reasons skip-stop was started was to avoid the problems of relaying at 137th. What I'm suggesting here is that relaying at 137th is the lesser of two evils.
Honestly. Your idea is great. But 137 is not the place for turnaround trains. However, if you apply the same strategy at Dyckman, you accomplish the same goal of reducing congestion at Van Cortlandt, while providing more trains per hour in the busiest sections of the city.
The only advantage I see at Dyckman is that trains are emptier so clearing out trains is slightly less difficult. You'll need a few extra trains to cover the extra distance, and I'd rather see those extra trains covering the crowds south of 137th. All of the stations in the 34-137 range except 125 are in the top 100; nothing north of 137 is, except 168, which I suspect sees most of its entering passengers going to the A.
There is another option: keep everything as it is (or as it will be come 9/15), but run additional locals from South Ferry to Lenox Term. The 5 limits the capacity on the 2/3 in Brooklyn but there is spare capacity in Manhattan (and as long as some 5 trains go to Flatbush, that spare capacity is guaranteed to exist). The only question is whether the 2/3 junction south of 145th can support the additional trains. In theory it can (just make sure to schedule NB and SB trains of the same route at the same time), but in practice I don't know how the constraint translates into numbers. The downside is that 103-137 don't get the service boost they should get.
But if all Redbirds are retired as planned, the point is moot, since 13 more trains systemwide (rather, A Divison-wide) aren't enough to support this sort of addition.
Another advantage to using Dyckman, is the fact that it's a bigger platform. Cleaning a train out at 137 is not fun. Those columns are spaced every few feet apart, making detraining difficult, and reducing platform capacity.
Realistically, the 1 needs no more than an additional 2 TPH, and this could easily be accomplished by using Dyckman.
Actually, if M track is still "open" and those switches are still hooked up to some levers, it was done a LONG long time ago and would definitely work. They could relay easily north of the station and not step on the rest of the railroad.
Exactly. Those swithces can be taken at 15mph. Unlike the ones at 137. It's a much better location for a turnaround. I'd like to see it happen.
I take it they're still there then. Are they still hooked up to 242 or are they manual throws now?
Another advantage to using Dyckman, is the fact that it's a bigger platform. Cleaning a train out at 137 is not fun. Those columns are spaced every few feet apart, making detraining difficult, and reducing platform capacity.
Yes, that would help, but don't you think most people going past 137th would simply not get on a train terminating at 137th?
Realistically, the 1 needs no more than an additional 2 TPH, and this could easily be accomplished by using Dyckman.
Are you crazy? Maybe you're just not aware of what happens every afternoon rush in the pre-9/11/01 / post-9/15/02 arrangement. Stand at 72nd and you'll see four expresses (2/3) go by, each one dropping off part of its load. Then a 1/9 will pull in (sometimes with yet another 2/3 across the platform), mostly empty, and seasoned passengers will know to ignore it because it's invariably going express also. (Sometimes the C/R doesn't even bother to say anything.) Directly behind it (meaning it didn't actually save any time running express from 42nd to 72nd) is a true local, and everyone will cram on, not wanting to wait another ten minutes. Sometimes another local or two are behind it; sometimes not. Then the whole thing repeats a few more times.
There needs to be a lot more local service to solve this problem. At the very least, it would be very nice to have the service we're scheduled to have -- if an occasional local absolutely has to run express, then shouldn't an express run local to make up, preferably during the 10-minute gap? Yet I've only twice ever seen scheduled 2/3 expresses run local when there's no GO and no obvious blockage on the express tracks. Once was a few months ago, when I was going south and I saw a NB 3 on the local track; I don't know what was going on there. The other was during the morning rush one day in 1991 or 1992, when I took a 2 one stop from 86th to 79th -- I didn't ride far enough to find out why the 2 was running local.
Perhaps a solution (which I discussed with someone here privately) would be to assign each station a minimum of acceptable service on a per-hour basis, based on ridership statistics, and to give those numbers to the TD's. The TD would be required to ensure that each station in his domain got at least its minimum acceptable service -- the route number doesn't matter; all that matters is that the train stops and opens its doors at the station. The TD would have to write an explanation each time a station didn't reach its minimum. And someone would read the explanations. Many good explanations is a sign that service in the area needs to be revamped; many bad explanations is a sign that it's time for the TD to look for another job. The TD would be personally responsible for ensuring that each station got sufficient service.
I've browsed through the 2000 ridership report. The busiest stations that get a total of ~15 tph or less (each way) are 50th on the 1/9, Cortlandt on the N/R (this is 2000, remember), 57th on the N/R (which has more service now), 179th on the F, 66th on the 1/9, 49th on the N/R (more service now), Woodhaven on the G/R, 8th on the N/R, 82nd on the 7, 23rd on the F (more service now), 86th on the 1/9, 90th on the 7, Cortlandt on the 1/9, 23rd on the N/R, 79th on the 1/9, and South Ferry on the 1/9. Notice that (a) of these 16 stations, 6 are on the 1/9, more than on any other line, and (b) all the local stations between 42nd and 96th (except 59th, which has other service) are on the list. I rest my case.
"Yes, that would help, but don't you think most people going past 137th would simply not get on a train terminating at 137th?"
I don't know what people would do. If I was going to VC from Times Square, and a n/b 1 pulled in, on it's way to Dyckman, and I could fit on the train, I'd just get on, and continue from Dyckman. Would the average NY'er? That's a good question.
But I also have to admit the I'm not an experienced 1 train passenger. At the same time, I've operated both the 1 and 2 trains via the local track in Manhattan, and it's a piece of cake compared to Lexington crowds. At the same time, I've told many people that one of the reasons for this, is the fact that the combination of 1 and 2 trains running local has provided more TPH serving local stations on 7th ave. thus less overcrowding.
But I can tell you from experience as a T/O that 137 turnarounds are a nightmare. One time, they were doing turnarounds at 137 for 3 trains, and it was hell. And the 3 trains were running on a very reduced schedule, and it was the weekend. So imagine how rough it would've been with rush-hour crowds and rush-hour intervals.
Did anyone complain when #5 service was cut from 241? I heard that #5 riders have the politicians on their side.
NYCT ordered 150 more IRT cars than it's replacing. After accounting for spares, that's as many as 13 more trains in service on any given day once service is increased (and a slight increase has already been made on the Lex Express, and train lengths have been increased on the #3). That's not enough?
David
Is service at 1/9 local stations between 42nd and 96th being boosted to at least 20 tph? If not, then it's not enough. What sort of service increase, if any, is planned for the 1/9?
I have no particulars at this time. If I get any, I'll post them.
David
As far as L/U's go, I wonder where they will keep them. It was/is very tight for space in the IRT now. I suppose not to bad, 1 or 2 trains per line/yard but it is cramped in places.
Definitely not this summer. There are still lots left on the 4, 5, and 7. My guess -- and it's only a guess -- is about a year.
The R-160's will have no impact. For one thing, the order was just placed a few weeks ago and delivery won't begin for a few years. For another, the R-160's will be too wide to fit on the lines the Redbirds run on. You may be thinking of the R-142(A)'s, which, according to plans, will kill off all the Redbirds from passenger service.
Best wishes for your mom's surgery.
The R160's will replace cars on the IND Div. B.
Redbirds run on Div. A. Good luck on your mom. Redbirds will be remembered.
Luck & Health to your mother.
The R-160s are for the "B" [BMT/IND] division. They are not for the "A" [IRT] division. It is the R-142/R-142As that are replacing the "Redbirds".
#3 West End Jeff
Here's a question that's doubtless been raised before, but I don't ever recall seeing it addressed in my time on the board.
Which, out of Division A and Division B, has the highest volume of use. I'm not sure what the best measure of this is, but I assume that comparative number of passenger journies over a particular period - say anually - would give a reasonable indication. If there are more accurate measures, then I'd be interested in those, too.
Thanks in anticipation
In total, I don't know, but A Division trains tend to be a lot more crowded, by virtue of both their size and their locations.
A Division trains tend to be a lot more crowded, by virtue of both their size and their locations.
Something not often discussed here. But in general the IRT does tend to serve many of the most important locations in the four boroughs: Both Manhattan railroad terminals, the Atlantic LIRR terminal. both baseball stadiums, Times Square, City Hall. It probably has something to do with it being first; it hit the important points in the city. But it also makes these among the most essential lines in the system. That coupled with the narrower car bodies and shorter trains (than IND/BMT, obviously) and it's not hard to imagine how the crowds happens.
:-) Andrew
If your talking sheer volume it has to be the 4 line.Even though all of the Lexington Ave Lines are heavy the 4 always seems more crowded.Dont be suprised if the Q brighton line has highest Listing though.I have found new respect for the brighton line since coming to the B division (SEA BEACH STILL MY FAVORITE),Q and the 4 rival eachother closely.
I think the 6 line is the busiest in the A division. If it's not the 6 line, then the 7 line has to be.
The A division is just very hectic. It's the preferred division for people who want to get around the city fast and cheap. I've been a T/O in the A division for a few months, and I have to say, the pace is hectic. I'm terrified of the large crowds at 77th and 68th on the 6 line. Ditto Times Square on the 7th Ave line. At the same time, I am such a Straphanger at heart, that I do little things to help out when I can. For example, when there's a GO happening on the Lex Ave line, and I'm on the 4 or 5 lines on a train that's being rerouted along the local track, I always make local stops, even though Grand Central Tower let's the crews decide whether or not they're going to make local stops or not. Otherwise, there's severe overcrowding on the 6 trains. Plus, I remember the days when I'd be standing at 51st while a 4 or 5 train passed through the station, while I cursed and screamed "what would it hurt for that train just to stop for us customers who have already been waiting for 10 mins".
yeah... the IRT/Div. A always seems to be more hectic...
Check them out at: http://www.nthward.com/images/CTA_Douglas/
Maybe soon I'll get them published to my site with some thumbnails and captions, but for now I just dumped them into an empty directory. The images are all 640x480 resolution, and average about 70KB in size.
Highlights of the series include:
A few shots taken while waiting at my home station of Berwyn on the Red Line, including one of a southbound Evanston Express signed to stop at Wrigley Field (there's a home game there this evening).
As the subject line of this posting would indicate, some construction photos of the ongoing reconstruction of the Douglas branch of the CTA Blue Line, including a couple temporary stations.
A few shots of the soon-to-be-replaced 'L' structures and stations along the line.
A few interesting (to me) shots of various neighborhood scenes along the way.
This is actually the first time I've ridden the Douglas branch since the SubTalk field trip almost a year ago. Damn, that seems like a long time ago now. This reconstruction differs significantly from the reconstruction of the Green Line some years ago. Obviously, the trains are still running during the project. Also, the entire 'L' structure is being totally rebuilt from the foundations up. When it's all done, there won't be a single original piece of the original structure. Compare to the Green Line structure in which much of the original structure appears to have been retained. Also, the supports for the new structure are concrete columns, with galvanized steel beams. This should hopefully cut down on long-term maintenance costs in the future. I also noticed that the ties on the new structure appear to be made out of some composite substance, rather than wood. Again, this should cut down on long-term maintenance.
As I mentioned earlier, several temporary stations have been constructed to serve passengers while the actual stations are rebuilt. Two of these temporary stations are elevated, the third is at grade (more about that one in a second). I noted that even these temporary stations are a vast improvement over the decrepit heaps they're replacing.
The third temporary station replaces the 54th/Cermak terminal while that station is being reconstructed from the ground up. What's interesting about this station is that it makes use of the long-abandoned platform of the Laramie station. Laramie was originally configured as an island platform station. Now, the tracks have been shifted so this station has side platforms. The Laramie platform serves the inbound side, and an additional temporary platform has been constructed to serve exiting outbound passengers. Curiously, the structure of this temporary platform consists of a row of precast Jersey highway barriers with steel I-beams laid across them. Whatever works, I suppose.
As the whole line is a big work zone, trains were restricted to slow speeds throughout much of the line, even on the sections that had already been rebuilt. But even at the slower-speeds, I noticed that the newer sections were much more quiet and smooth than the structure they replaced.
Dave Pirmann: Feel free to add any or all of these photos to the Chicago section on nycsubway.org.
Enjoy,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Its a damn shame they are ripping out those classic El supports. Don't they have any sort of historic preservation in Chicago. Too bad the Nimbies couldn't have teamed up with the historic preservationists to head off this desicration.
Oh, please. Those supports would have crumbled down on their own within six months if they hadn't been ripped down. Most of them are rusted all the way through.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Then they shoud have replaced them with reproductions to preserve the historic feel of the old EL.
I agree with JM. Concrete L (or el) support structures don't have the "flavor" of an elevated line.
I agree with JM. Concrete L (or el) support structures don't have the "flavor" of an elevated line.
Excuse me, but after you drop my friends off at Walgreens, would you drop me off in front of JC Penney's? I'd really appreciate that. I'll even spring for the quarter you need for the parking meter. :)
--Mark
Nifty! How nice to see so many images from there. Still the 'tardstick' for look and feel. And the platforms are so tiny. Also nice to see the freights and the skylines. Jeez the project is an ugly box.
David--
When the smoke clears, will the line have the same amount of elevated and surface trackage as before?
Will it have the same number of grade crossings?
How old was the orignal structure?
As to losing the old structure, I imagine it became a situation like the Franklin Shuttle--the alternative could have been abandonment.
When the smoke clears, will the line have the same amount of elevated and surface trackage as before? Will it have the same number of grade crossings?
Yes and yes.
How old was the orignal structure?
I'm not sure exactly (others on this board know far more about CTA history than I do), but I'm almost certain it was in excess of 100 years old. If not, then it was pretty damn close.
As to losing the old structure, I imagine it became a situation like the Franklin Shuttle--the alternative could have been abandonment.
Very true. For a long time the CTA was seriously considering shutting down the branch entirely. Ten years ago they probably would have. Some railfans need to realize that the city's transit infrastructure isn't a museum artifact; Most people would rather have fast, reliable transit service on a "bland" concrete structure than slow, unreliable service on a rusted-out steel structure -- or no service at all. If railfans want to gawk at historical relics, they should support their local railway museum.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I see the crossover switches at Berwyn are still there. North Shore trains probably used them back in the days when the Edgewater Beach Hotel was still in business.
Nice view of the Jewel store with St. Ita's Church in the background.
This morning at Pentagon, a man jumped in front of a Huntington bound Yellow line train. The train was put BIE but could not stop in time, the man was dead at the scene and under the 2nd car when the train stopped. Since Pentagon is a 2 level station, the incident was on the lower level, and passengers were not allowed on the lower level. Blue line trains single tracked from Pentagon City to Arlington Cemetary, Yellow line trains from Pentagon City to L'Enfant Plaza. The PIMS displays worked wonderfully, displaying the entire message without stopping midway to deliver next train info. I am glad they finally got those things working.
The T/O had been a WMATA employee for 10 years but had been driving trains for 9 months. I was on the Metro at about 9:40 AM, the next time I was on a train was after 1 and it was cleared.
Just another 12-9 (shrugs).
All Acela Express are CANCELLED August 13.
All Metroliners are CLOSED for sale to provide protection for
displaced Acela Express passengers.
Current reports are that failures have been found in the trucks of at
least two Acela Express trainsets. ARROW shows space still being sold
for August 14, assuming that results of an immediate inspection of all
trainsets allow resumption of service. An 80mph speed limit was already imposed on the would-be speedsters on August 12.
-AcelaExpress2005
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250
Hot diggity! Everyone get out your old, slow speed cameras! This is your chance!
--Brian
When it rains, it pours...
-- David
Chicago, IL
The fun never ends with the Acela Express. She's certainly not a shop queen, but she spends way too much time getting makeovers.
Channel 4 of Washington, D.C. has confirmed this report. The number of trainsets which has cracks are increased to three.
Chaohwa
Okay, I'm 4 days returned from Switzerland, in which the rail transportation system is much more efficient than ours, and this is what I hear?
Channel 4 report
Just called one of my buddies over at the Rensselaer shop and while there's been no instructions out of Philly as yet, word is that a LARGE number of Amtrak New York cars (not owned by NYS) are likely to be taken off Empire corridor and transferred to NEC. But at the moment, this is only a ***RUMOR*** ...
Wonder if this will affect negotiations for Rensselaer and Saratoga rail stations. :)
Update ... word from down south was to "stand down, we won't need to transfer anything off Empire corridor" ... seems as though the situation won't turn out to be as bad as first thought. Just figured I'd pass it along ...
The number of trainsets which has cracks are increased to three.
What is with these new train purchases? Did they have problems like this years ago when new trains/engines were purchased for various railroads/transit?
The LIRR purchase of the new DM/DE30's has been a total disaster. The Acela trainsets seem to be a nightmare purchase. I hear this from so many new train purchases lately. Was it always like this?
only with new tech
Oh, come on. The R-10s had truck (undercarriage/bogey) troubles when they were new. All of the trucks had to be replaced.
David
What is with these new train purchases? Did they have problems like this years ago when new trains/engines were purchased for various railroads/transit? Was it always like this?
No, but in the old days, railroads built prototype fleets (e.g. anything from one to five examples of a particular design) and then tested the design to death. Then once the designs had been tested, they were put into squadron production when up to 200 examples of the same type would be ordered, possibly more. However this means that you have to start rolling stock development not 2 years before you want them in service but more like six years. Also rolling stock building in the old days was guarenteed to be profitable, so the builders would sometimes build prototypes at their own expense and try to push them to the railroads. Also, in the old days, with unsuccessful designs, some prototype fleets would be scrapped in its entirety and a new design started from scratch, or the entire fleet would undergo modification.
Example of prototype: GG-1 #4800 "Rivets"
Example of fleet scrapping: F-1 "Big Liz" (one example scrapped)
Example of fleet modification: P-5 (boxcab) to P-5a (center cab)
The design process isn't what it once was. Also, with new technologies, there are a lot more things to go wrong. Looking at it as an engineering system, you could argue that the newest design process has "a lot more moving parts". Like computer systems today, it is less and less deterministic.
AEM7
Another example are the 6 Pioneer III Silverliner I cars that Budd built in 1956 to test all the new Silverliner technologies. In 1962 they delivered 58 production Silverliner II cars which entered service with few problems. The total design was about 8 or so years.
Also in the 50's the PRR needed a new electric freight locomotive so GE and Baldwin made them a total of 6 or so slightly different prototypes. They were AC, AC/DC, B-B trucks, C-C trucks, B-B-B trucks, every possible combination so that they could be tested and the best one found.
In comparason, the Metroliner EMU's were rushed into production over a space of 2-4 years. Not only that they were split between GE and Westinghouse in terms of electrical workings. Despite the fact that GE and Westinghouse were operating as a single colusive monopoly in those days, the MetroLiners still had two different sets of untested electrical equipment. The result was chaos and an abysmal reliability record.
The PRR was known to even build several competing prototypes in house and then test them to see which was superrior. A good example is the GG-1/R-1 test-off with the GG-1 winning in the end. The PRR had more few or one of a kind steam and electric locomotives than just about anybody. FF-1, one built, DD-2, one built, R-1, one built, O-1a/b/c, two built each, L-5, 3 built, etc.
The R142s seem to work. Therefore, I just hope the TA sticks with the design for a while. And I hope the R142, R143, and R160 cars will have most of their components in common.
Another black eye for Bombardier ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Guaranteed they'll find a way to blame Amtrak.
Their web site, even if the train is not listed as sold out you can't select it.
That explains why I saw 4 Acela Express Trainsets lined up back to back in Sunnyside Yard this morning at 830 as I was riding on a Manhattan bound 7. They should just send them back to Bombardier and demand they fix all the problems with them before returning them to seivce. I just don't get why people keep ordering trains from Bombardier if they all seem to have problems. Look at the R-142. I hope the M-7 isn't doomed to the same troubles as the Acela and R-142.
Mabe because they a) figure that Bombardier is a world-class manufacturer being that som many countries order their cars, or b) they are most likely the lowest bidder on many customers' contracts...
I dunno
Cleanairbus
The problem appears to be with the "yaw dampers" from what I heard cracking. Now for what it's worth, after the contract was let, Amtrak wanted the sway limits of the cars limited from what they had been designed for and those restrictions would cause quite a bit of wear on the yaw dampers ... so I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome of this is yet another "we told you so" out of Bombardier who built to specs and then had the specs changed AFTER construction. But that's what I heard for what HEARSAY is worth. :)
David Gunn and CO "If it ain't broke" mentality hard at work. Apple IIe puters for future R142s!
I'd settle for nothing less than a Sinclair ZX-81. :)
Washington Post at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11726-2002Aug13.html
said:
Two were found to be all right but four exhibited cracking around bolt holes that indicated a failure was imminent and three trains had broken brackets.
With limited engineering knowledge, I would hazard to guess that if there were cracking around the bolt holes that held the Yaw Dampers in place, the bolt holes were underdesigned for the task for which they were asked to perform.
The task that they were asked to perform was spelled out in the contract, as amended. Bombardier clearly failed to redesign the product or provide retro-fits (at additional costs of course) to prevent such an occurence.
If you order a piece of rail that is "good for a 28-tonne axle load" and suddenly after 3 months cracks started appearing around the bolt hole around the fishplates, isn't it the rail manufacturer's fault for not ensuring that the rails were heavy enough and up to the task?
AEM7
Calculating metal fatigue is one of the most difficult engineering problems. Remember, this was an amendment to the contract, so it wasn't designed in from square one.
Bolt holes are classic stress points. The problem is that if you have only a few, then the stress on each bolt is large. Adding more bolts (and holes) puts the stress on the lesser amount of material surrounding each hole. Probably, what the solution will be is to reinforce the area with an additional plate (welded to the original) to add to the area where the Yaw Dampers are secured.
I came away from the article seeing it as a possible set of bad welds. But then again, metallurgy isn't my forte so I s'pose we'll have to wait for a more definitive technical dissertation than I'd be able to come up with.
But with "200 modifications" required, sure does seem like Gunn is right about the Acelas being "eurotrash" ... heh.
John "oaksmodelrr" posted on trainorders.com that he just heard on NPR that three trainsets have been cleared to run today.
Amtrak's statement
If the ACELA's still aren't running by the 17th does that mean I'll see you at the chapter picnic?
If the ACELA's still aren't running by the 17th does that mean I'll see you at the chapter picnic?
No, I'll take a substitute "Metroliner Service" train.
MetroLiners don't run to Boston.
Metroliners that run as AE replacements run to Boston.
So you guys are coming to BOS and not telling me? LOL OK, well, I won't... nevermind
Yes, I'm going to Boston, but unfortunately, I don't expect to be able to do a lot of railfanning, and that which I do will be spur-of-the-moment, not planned ahead of time. My major constraint will be that my Better Half will be with me, so my time away from business will be non-railfan tourist stuff.
She understands, of course, that we'll be riding subways whenever it can be justified.
I assumed Jersey Mike is coming to BOS with you for a chapter dinner. I guess I guessed wrong.
Incidentally, I was in Columbus yesterday and I saw a restaurant that said "Jersey Mike's Cafe"
AEM7
Does it have a railfan window?
Wow, Bombsuckier has reached a new low.....
They are saying that trains without the defects will return to service this afternoon. The way the news reports are being made, it seems that some trains are going to be on the road tonight.
Maybe Alstom should of built the entire Acela Express Fleet, those TGV's don't have a problem over in France, and they been running for years.
Jot that down on the list of the million or so other things we could learn from European rail...
:)
Mark
Wait, no.
Firstly, TGVs are extremely high maintenance. There is no chance in hell that a TGV will survive in Philadelphia Shops (or indeed any heavy maintenance shops in North America). In fact, a EuroStar that was maintained at the North Pole Depot in Southern England was found to have a high risk technical failure only recently (axle mounting crack) -- following a fleet inspection, three sets out of a fleet of twenty or thirty turned up to have the faults. Even the Brits can't maintain EuroStars to the level required in an SNCF shop. SNCF shops are not cheap.
Secondly, TGVs are not a high performing train and will never deliver the kind of performance demanded from the Acela Express. Although technically speaking the Acela Express isn't a great train, the level of performance required from it still far exceeds the level of performance required from a flimsy TGV.
AEM7
What do you mean by "high-performing"? The TGV is certainly faster than the Acela, so I assume you're not talking about speed. Are you talking rather about the robustness of the train and its ability to take real-world punishment?
Mark
I believe that is what he is referring to.
The TGV runs on a dedicated ROW, very straight, very controlled. No curves, no other traffic, no nothing.
Acela has to hug tight curves, coexist with other traffic, meet FRA crash standards (which TGV does not) and deal with track that, while excellent for US standards, isn't as pampered as TGV ROW.
ACELAration. 0-130MPH in 3-4 miles. No TGV exists with that capability. Unless baby TGVs show up on conventional lines, they never will, either.
(with apologies to Bill Maher)
With all the talk of spending many billions of dollars to redo the downtown stations/connections (which I'm all for, don't get me wrong), I thought I'd make a modest proposal for how the MTA could make some dramatic service improvements for their riders without requiring any property condemnation or Public hearings...
Premise:
Over the last few decades, it seems that whenever the TA has constructed a new "connection", they've severed another connection without making provision for emergency re-routes, thus constructing a house of cards with no way to easily react to even a single problem train without some kind of difficulty.
First: The Chrystie Connection
My position: A Good idea gone wrong. While it has been established here that the idea was to alleviate the condition of trains running heavy into Manhattan and light back to Brooklyn, I wonder if the TA mightn't have made a smarter construction choice.
My proposal: The Chrystie connection was a needed connection. However, I am puzzled as to why the TA intentionally limited their ability to route trains. Rather than severing the Nassau Loop and the connecting tunnel from the Manny-B north tracks to the Canal St. Station, why not install switches from the Manny-b south tracks to the Nassau Loop, and also from the Manny-B north tracks to Canal.
This way, the MTA would have more options for regular routing as well as an abiliy to run around problem trains. All North-bound trains on the south side of the Manny-B could run either up Broadway or back down through the Nassau Loop.
All NB trains on the Manny-B north side tracks could be routed via Broadway Express or 6th Ave. Express.
I know switches are expensive to maintain. But if the TA could convince people that they had the fundamental ability to adjust to a single problem train without becoming completely paralyzed, do you not think that ridership would improve?
Second: The Brighton Line
Two quick thoughts...
1. Why not install a crossover switch north of 7th Ave (plenty of room to do so, it even looks like there used to be one...), thus allowing Atlantic Ave. to be used a proper stub terminal during GOs and emergency re-routes. As it is now, during GOs, trains have to wrong-rail from south of Prospect Park all the way to Atlantic Ave.
2. Speaking of switches... how about installing at least one more in between Prospect Park and King's Highway? It would seem the most logical location would be either just before or just after newkirk Ave. AS it is now, once you've left Kings Hwy (NB) or Prospect park (SB) you are committed to whatever track you're on until one has reached either of the above-mentioned stations.
That's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
Score one for rail travel and for energy efficiency. US Airways went bankrupt today. As always you can expect they'll ask for some sort of bailout or loan guarentee. Hopefully this will show the congress just how "profitable" other forms of transportation are compared to Amtrak. People need to learn that flying should be reserved for only the longest and most important journies. Causal air travel is a waste of energy and is simply not sustainable for the masses of people on this Earth.
There is more at ABC news here: http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Business/ap20020812_909.html
Most airlines have an extensive hub system to feed the international routes. Therefore, short-haul flights will always be with us. As much as I love rail, I don't want to see rail dollars go towards weak airlines. They need to get stronger so they can take care of themselves (relatively speaking).
Most airlines have an extensive hub system to feed the international routes. Therefore, short-haul flights will always be with us.
Short-haul flights like this can be replaced with train service between airports, or between a city center and an airport (depending on whether the city center or the local airport is more conveniently reachable for embarking passengers). They have the advantage of not being subject to the vagaries of the weather, at least not nearly to the extent that flights are.
Airlines could even go into the business of operating these train services, if they weren't so damn hidebound.
Mvh Tim
Alternately, the airlines could farm the rail service to a contractor like they currently do with commuter airlines. Instead of ASA Delta Connection we could see ASA Delta Rail, for example.
Mark
And how do you deal with small cities that don't have the requisite infrastructure for rail service, namely train tracks that go somewhere useful? I've mentioned the example of much of upstate New York, which is largely served by only US Airways and has no rail service outside of the Thruway corridor.
I suspect that an awful lot of track could be laid with the $16 billion that was used to bailout the airlines.
Mark
A good few people now in America associate planes with crashing and rails with derailing, and to certain degrees the news media is not much help in that department.
In terms or rails Amtrack especially, that sterotype needs to be erased first. A lot of the tracks used now need to be replaced. The same way the government bails out the airlines, they should start aiding abit more in the rail structure here
I'm not disputing that. I'm just pointing out that, right now, as the infrastructure exists today, Amtrak simply isn't an option to many.
Add to that the near impossibility of making connections on once-per-day trains...Last Christmas I travelled to several places in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Tennesee. I wanted to to take Amtrak from Lake Charles to Memphis, but the transfer in New Orleans would have required overnight stay in the Big Easy!
Mark
>>> I wanted to to take Amtrak from Lake Charles to Memphis, but the transfer in New Orleans would have required overnight stay in the Big Easy! <<<
And what was the negative factor that outweighed that benefit?
Tom
"I suspect that an awful lot of track could be laid with the $16 billion that was used to bailout the airlines."
Sure, if you didn't have to buy the ROW and make it smooth. From various postings about what things cost, I would conclude that ROW in those moderately dense areas where it can actually be used (i.e., not Wyoming) is at least $100 million per mile. So, $16B is only 160 miles.
Obviously more infrastructure would have to be built. Building it for this type of rail service would be a more effective use of federal dollars than wasting those dollars on air service.
Mvh Tim
Right. We can instead waste the money building a ROW for a once-per-day rail passenger service. Makes a lot of cents.
Railfans never want to face the reality that is a mixed-mode transportation system.
-Hank
Intermodal is the way to go! I've said it many times before: Use trains to connect from smaller cities to large airports!
Mark
Whoever said anything about a once-a-day passenger service?
The point is that building rail to replace short-distance (and maybe some medium-distance) flights is a better use of capital and permits a better use of scarce airport capacity. Obviously the best candidates for this are corridors where there is relatively dense air service.
My point in the context of this thread is that if the airlines weren't so hidebound, they'd realize that they're in the passenger transportation business, not the airline business, and they'd be fighting to get these lines built and for the right to operate trains on them to feed their longer-distance flights. Instead, their tunnel vision has them fighting (and it may well be a losing battle) for greater airport capacity. Which often means public investment, and would certainly mean increased federal investment in the air traffic control system.
Mvh Tim
"And how do you deal with small cities that don't have the requisite infrastructure for rail service, namely train tracks that go somewhere useful?"
That's why buses were invented. Numerous small to medium sized towns in upstate NY will never have anything other than bus service. For example, Kingston, Oneonta, New Paltz, Monticello, just to name a few in the southeast portion of "upstate".
Numerous small to medium sized towns in upstate NY will never have anything other than bus service. For example, Kingston, Oneonta, New Paltz, Monticello, just to name a few in the southeast portion of "upstate".
But all of these towns did have rail service at one time. Somewhere I have a beautiful shot (taken by my great uncle, of blessed memory) of a passenger train pulled by a steam locomotive in the snow at the New Paltz station. The photo was taken in the 1920s, I believe. The station is still there, in use as a fancy restaurant the last time I was in New Paltz (before that it was the local welfare office), and the ROW is preserved as a trail for many miles.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, and that (the trail and the restaurant) is the way it should stay, since there will never be an economic case for re-opening that railroad, unless the population of New Peltz grows by approximately 10,000%
AEM7
... since there will never be an economic case for re-opening that railroad ...
Quite likely a true statement. But, based on reading the posted menu, the restaurant was seriously overpriced so it wouldn't surprise me if it's no longer open. I didn't hang around to eat there since I obviously didn't fit the trendy clientele they were seeking.
BTW, there are still trolley tracks under the pavement in New Paltz... they surface from time to time when the blacktop gets worn down.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And even more amusing point - back in 1975, 1976, and 1977 the New Paltz railroad station was home to the "Community Communications Project" consisting of public access "Channel 12" and my own WXVU-FM 108 (nation's first "Cable FM station) and the railroad was *still* running several freights a day on the single track past it. We did what we could afford to repair the station (limited funds, and it was in HORRIBLE condition) and operated out of there. I owned the commercial radio station and leased our studio space from the TV people (also operated the TV station when the students were away) and often parked a camera on the radio operation and showed the trains as they came past. Operated 24 hours a day.
Befriended some of the guys on the railroad - they'd stop for coffee and I'd get many a chance to operate SD38's between there and Gardiner and up to Rosendale and back quite often. Eventually the village condemned the train station - I moved the radio station up to a house we leased at 4 Wurts Avenue and ran the station out of there for a couple more years before the economy worsened and we shut down. The TV folks never did find another location, so "channel 12" died when they were evicted from the train station. That old building had a LOT of history to it though.
"But all of these towns did have rail service at one time."
I have friends who are old enough to have taken the Ulster and Delaware RR to the giant metropolis of Grand Gorge, NY (pop. 300 then, at most 1000 now, about 35 mi east of Oneonta). It would be nice if they could still do it, but it sure doesn't seem likely in our lifetimes.
Not likely. I don't think Pine Hills Trailwaste even has a BUS to there anymore. Damned shame that is, and damned glad that the DURR is at least running on PART of the route still ...
"I don't think Pine Hills Trailwaste even has a BUS to there anymore."
It does. There are about 2-3 buses per day that after doing the fairly busy NYC-Kingston-Hunter-Windham route continue along NY 23 to the giant metropolises of Ashland, Prattsville, Grand Gorge, Stamford (well that's a sizable town, actually), Davenport, and then terminate at Oneonta.
The nice thing about intercity buses is that you really don't need many passengers per day to make them economical. In this example (and there are of course zillions of similar cases), most of the traffic tails of by Windham, but the extra hour of going all the way to Oneonta is justified by the scattering of passengers they do pick up. Also, the fares are really high, again resulting in their ability to run for relatively few people.
OK ... I get it now ... I was thinking of the "Grand Gorge" in SCHOHARIE county where the DURR once connected up with the D&H. Different "Grand Gorge" ... sorry for da confusion there ...
There's only one Grand Gorge, at the intersection of Rtes 23 and 30. It's in the far northeast corner of Delaware County just on the border of both Greene and Schoharie Counties (shares the same phone exchange, 607-588-xxxx, with the towns of Gilboa and Conesville, which are Schoharie County).
I still remember freight service there - probably till around 1960 or 1965.
How do U know so much
I know a certain amount of stuff from personal experience or reading it in the papers. What I don't know I try not to claim I know (except occasionally I claim to know something I don't because my memory is faulty).
I tend to claim that I know more than I actually do (otherwise known as bullshitting). AEM7
We've noticed.
-Hank
Whoops! You're RIGHT ... sorry ... I used to live in Middleburg and remember the "Grand Gorge" signs and didn't know it was THAT far away.
How does this score one for rail transit?
You are talking about one service, the shuttle, offered by US Airways. The current status of rail travel in the US could not even handle 10% of just US Airways passangers. Even their short haul LGA to Buffalo, Amtrak can't replace.
Not to meantion all the 100's of people envloved in air travel and their jobs.
(How does this score one for rail transit?)
Maybe it scores one for Inter-city Bus. As I mentioned on Bustalk, I rode such a bus this January for the first time in 20 years. We were at the in-laws, they were staying on with the car to ski, but I had to get back to work. I rode a Pine Hill Trailways bus, and it was really nice.
Very well said.
MATT-2AV
I don't see it as a big win for rail travel or neccessarily an indication that air travel "should be reserved for only the longest and most important journeys". As others have mentioned, there just isn't the rail infrastructure to cover US Air's routes.
US Air is/was just a management boondoggle -- having hubs in Philly, Pittsburgh and Charlotte never made any sense. Bankruptcy protection lets them work their way out of debt at fractions of dollars without having to strand their customers or fire all their employees. (at least for now).
As far as loan guarantees and bailouts, they asked and the answer was no.
Anyone care to guess the total $$ paid to airlines since 9/11 and the number of airlines with loans guaranteed by the federal govt.?
CG
US Airways has been crying about filing bankruptcy for three years now. It's about thime they did it. They REALLY cried when United Airlines withdrew their offer to buy them up about two years ago.
And United started crying since. I don't understand why a company would announce that they 'may' seek bankruptcy protection. Look what happens to their stock price! Additionally, their credit rating hits the crapper, making it harder to do business.
-Hank
"I don't understand why a company would announce that they 'may' seek bankruptcy protection."
It's a bargaining ploy. Trying to get union concessions. Concede now or we'll go into Chapter 11 and then your contract will be void anyway.
>>> I don't understand why a company would announce that they 'may' seek bankruptcy <<<
Perhaps the top officers of the corporation have seen the mobs with the torches headed toward the castles of Enron and WordCom, and do not want to be accused of misleading the public regarding the condition of the corporation.
Tom
They have only filed chapter 11. They will continue to operate.
Peace,
ANDEE
Hmm...just like Penn Central, Reading, Jersey Central...
-Hank
The Delaware River Port Authority approved funding ($400k) in May of 2001 to study extension of mass transit along the route 55 corridor through gloucester County and into Cumberland County. Bid solicitations were mailed out yesterday.
"Delaware River Port Authority officials have begun soliciting consultants for a transportation study that could be the first step in extending the PATCO Hi-Speedline into Gloucester and Cumberland counties.
"There's no guarantee the planned $400,000 study would lead to an expanded Hi-Speedline or some other new passenger railway for South Jersey, said My Linh Nguyen, a spokeswoman for the DRPA, which operates PATCO."
Story in Tuesday's Courier-Post.
Here's a question for everyone: What in your opinion would be the best transit solution for that part of South Jersey? Is PATCO expansion needed, or maybe some sort of light rail? Do you think there need to be additional lines across the Delaware?
Mark
PATCO platforms were extended to accommodate eight-car trains in anticipation of a second line overwhelming service over the bridge. Trains from Lindenwold and Glassboro could alternate over the bridge with an acceptable level of overcrowding for a short time during rush hours.
A light rail line would have to get its riders into Philly somehow; dumping them onto PATCO at Broadway wouldn't work.
A new tunnel under the river connecting the south end of the Broad Street Subway to anywhere from Gloucester City to National Park, and eventually the Route 55 corridor, would be the best (IMO) and most expensive solution.
I always thought extending the Broad Street Subway under the Delaware to Jersey sounded like a neat idea. Is anyone at all calling for this?
Mark
I always thought extending the Broad Street Subway under the Delaware to Jersey sounded like a neat idea. Is anyone at all calling for this?
I haven't heard anyone officially associated with transit talk about it for years.
Too bad. Just out of historical curiosity, when was the idea considered, and what killed it? Money? Politics?
Mark
Just out of historical curiosity, when was the idea considered, and what killed it? Money? Politics?
Inertia, lack of will to do it. It's been many years since I read about it; you can't use my memory as an historical source.
How wide is the bridge? In other words, could an extra pair of tracks be added (say, to terminate at 8th)?
The bridge can't accommodate additional tracks.
Actually, It just might.
When the bridge was built there was a provision for streetcar tracks in the center. Public Service wasn't interested as they had discovered the bus and was in the first stage of the destruction of the exensive rail system in New Jersey. (Some of which has been restored at a cost of millions). There was also the fact that PS used standard gauge, while PRT was Philadelphia gauge, so no through service to downtown was possible. A bus could drive across and go to downtown, so that's what happened.
As to Mike's comment about connecting Broad to New Jersey, SEPTA will get into interstate rapid transit operations when pigs learn to fly.
The provision for trolley tracks was just inside the support structure, where the outside lanes of traffic are presently located. DRPA will not remove two traffic lanes to install another railroad line across the bridge.
One alternative would be to replace the current pedestrian crossing on each side with a track structure.
But where would the new tracks go on the Camden side? I suppose you could enlarge the existing tunnel and open-cut ROW, then the new line would branch away from the Lindenwold line.
Are more tracks on the Ben Franklin Bridge really the best idea? Instead of trying to funnel everything through one bottle neck, maybe a second crossing would be a better plan. Could the Walt Whitman bridge be used for transit? If not, then maybe tunneling, though difficult and expensive, might be easier than trying to add more tracks to BFB.
Mark
I like the tunnel idea but I fear the funding isn't available to do it.
There is actually enough tph capacity on the Ben Franklin so that two branches of a mass transit line could be served with existing tracks. The Lindenwold andf Glassboro trains could alternate entering the switches...
Rail over the Betsy Ross or other DRPA bridges would be cool.
As to Mike's comment about connecting Broad to New Jersey, SEPTA will get into interstate rapid transit operations when pigs learn to fly.
When I get the money, I expect to take pilot lessons.
It's about time. If the existing line can handle it, consider running a line along 55 and then having it merge into the existing line to cross the river into Philly. There's enough line capacity to do that, and it would eliminate the expense of a new tunnel across the Delaware.
Maybe it's also time to extend PATCO west, or west and south to new Philly destinations.
The most economic solution is commuter rail along the old PSRL either into a new elevated Camden Broadway Station or into a railroad tunnnel from Westville to Greewitch with the trains reaching 30th St. Station via Arsenal interlocking. This has been my plan for years using 3rd rail electrified ACMU 1100 looking MU cars or cheap diesel-3rd rail conversion locomotives. Initial service to Glassboro, then to Millvillle, simulating service on the old WJ&S electric line.
That's not a bad idea.
I created a fairly detailed "Bathroom Plan" (ie pondered while on the john) of service along the old Millville Line.
There would be stations at Millville, Vineland, Newton, Malaga, Glassboro, Pittman, Sewell, Winona, Woodbury Heights, Woodbury. Westville and Glouster City. Some stops would be local stops. The RoW from Woodbury to Westville is 3 track so that is where the tunnel would connect. There would be a "Sports Complex" station in south philly and special event trains could be run. Hopefully, the tunnel would be such that freight trains could use it, giving NS/CSX a shortcut around the Delair Bridge and Pavonia yard for unit trains destined for the southern chemical coast.
The RoW would see speeds b/t 80 and 100mph and Philly trains could alternate termination at 30th St. track 9/10 or the 0 track in Septa Suburban Station which is currently un/under used. The only problem for Camden trains is the single track b/t MILL and CENTER due to the PATCO RoW. Phaze II would shove the PRR over one track (there's room) and build another mickle st. tube and give the new rail line the current eastbound PATCO tunnel. The result would be, from MILL you would have a single track line to the elevated Broadway Station and a diving single track cut into a Camden Broadway underground station next to the current PATCO station. Each terminal would have 2-4 tracks.
Future extensions would include MU service to Winslow and shuttle service to Sweedsboro and Paulsboro terminating at Woodbury.
Quoted from an email from one of the consultants who received a bid solicitation: "This will be the 17th study of the same geography."
Memo to myself: Start a consulting business, scrap plans for construction business...
Mark
Another quote from the consultant's email that will interest people on this board: "And yes, the NIMBY's did shoot down our 1995
proposal to Glassboro. We will have to address their concerns in our
plan this time."
What problems did the NIMBYs have with the 1995 proposal?
The only case that I can remember is that the Nimby's convinced the politicians that they wouldn't get re-elected if the line were built along the former PRSL (now CRSAO) ROW.
i have a rough guess-ti-mate on some of the MU rolling stock they
use but is it true the stick all of the riders in the BACK 2 CARS ??
man what a big bummer if this is so !!
anybody can help me as 2 if i can get a railfan window on metro N.?
Thankz if anyone can help me with some info......
.............lol !
Ride rush hour on any MU train.
Almost any MU train. Took a ride on an 1100 set in the vestibules on the Hudson Line Monday, better than the front window for me on a hot one. The only thing I miss about the LIRR coaches.
well mostly rush hours, but sometimes they lock off the front 2 cars. and any train headed for diesel territory like POUGHKEEPSIE, DANBURY, WASSAIC, etc, dont expect a RF window. ima learn more starting monday when i get my ID
only during rush hours ........................ is this true on the nw haven line too ?
A few weeks ago I rode out the NH, left GCT at 11:07 IIRC, and i think the first 2 or three pairs (4 or 6 cars) were closed, it was a big rush hour train, I was psyched about the RFW, but was kinda let down when I walked up and after the first four cars (IIRC) all the cars were closed up and darkened. The crew said something about those cars being hot, but I think it was more about keeping the sheep together in the back, still I got the rear rfw, almost as good.
BTW: I also caught an LIRR PJ train later that day, when we made the transfer at Huntington, I made the same mistake, and headed for the front car. A couple guys key their way on, I figure the doors busted or something and follow them up to it, but they directed me back to the first occupied car.
Why do they do this??? Is it the FRA or something, why even bother having MUs if you're not gonna bother allowing them to be filled? Just go locomotive for all I care.
Back when Metro North was still ConRail, I would always have a ralfan view from New Haven to GCT. On the return trip, if it was a Saturday, the first two cars would be closed and I'd be out of luck. Weekdays on the 5:02 express (four stops between GCT and New Haven) were different. All ten cars were open and the railfan window was mine for the taking.
im not sure exactly which trains have Railfan window, maybe i can ask my supervisor on monday when i get my I.D.
however, i know if u catch certain trains u should get a Railfan window.
HUDSON line
any local outbound to Croton harmon starting at about 10am. DONT TRY THIS AFTER 2 OR 3 BEING THAT IT IS RUSH HOURS.
INBOUNDS from CROTON HARMON to GCT, u usually get a RF window. DONT TRY THIS MORNING RUSH, u might get lucky for evening rush, but dont anticipate it.
HARLEM LINE--- ANYTHING HEADED FOR BREWSTER NORTH, OR NORTH WHITE PLAINS. ONCE AGAIN, if u get rush hour RF window, consider urself lucky. when i had to be at the WHITE PLAINS FACILITY for the test and information session for the trackworker job. i got a railfan window at 730am. CONSIDER THAT A BLESSING TO HAVE RAILFAN WINDOW IN A MORNING RUSH. but u are more likely to have one on a OUTBOUND from grand central. not a INBOUND.
NH LINE, ANY LOCAL TO NEW HAVEN OR STAMFORD LONG AS IT AINT A INBOUND DURING MORNING RUSH OR A OUTBOUND DURING EVENING RUSH. on a saturday they might seal off the cars as u all have mentioned.
NO RAILFAN WINDOWS AVAILABLE AT ALL ON THE FOLLOWING
ANYTHING HEADED TO OR FROM POUGHKEEPSIE(THE EXPRESS TRAINS)
ANYTHING HEADED TO OR FROM WASSAIC OR DOVER PLAINS
ANYTHING HEADED TO OR FROM WATERBURY
ANYTHING HEADED TO OR FROM DANBURY,
ANY TRAIN WITH A DIESEL OR A SHORELINER
I MIGHT GET TO RIDE IN THE LOCOMOTIVE IF I KNOW THE ENGINEER AND I SHOW HIM MY GREEN CARD :) it has happened to me before
I ESPECIALLY LOVE RIDING THE EXPRESS FROM HARMON TO GCT IN A SHORELINER CAB WITH A ENGINEER I KNOW! THEY ONLY MAKE STOPS AT
OSSINING, TARRYTOWN, YONKERS, (MARBLE HILL SOMETIMES) 125TH AND GRAND CENTRAL!
Salaam,
I thought I told you already. Yes, there is a railfan window on all the MUs.
The only instances where you may not have access to it is when:
1) It is off-peak, and the train is lightly loaded. In this case, the outbound (one or more) pair(s) of cars may be closed. I don't ever recall having inbound cars closed off. Trains pull in to GCT inbound cars first. Why make people walk past empty cars? Closing off cars during off peak hours is a means of saving on conductors, etc...
2) The engineer has his door open and blocks the window.
MATT-2AV
I don't know what's the deal these days, but I used to ride express MU (M1 & M3) trains on the Hudson Line from GCT to Croton-Harmon. At that time it was usually a four-car train on the weekend. Even if you didn't get the rail-fan window... it was a nice fast ride, especially between Yonkers and Tarrytown, Tarrytown and Ossining.
Wayne
About ten days ago, I finally found Car #1978 when I was just getting off the (Q) in Times Square and towards the Grand Central Shuttle.
And I finally rode that car one stop to the GCT, but took a different car going back.
The consist of that car (was a 4-car consist) was (W)1935-2086-1978-1951(E)
It took several visits to New York, but I finally got it.
Nick
Well at least now I know where the R62A containing my birth year is: 1951.
Mine is 1979-that's the reason for my handle except that it's an MCI Cruiser. R62A 1979 I have that handle on the Other Side of the Tracks-Harry Beck's site.
Still looking for R62A 1979-I have my camera in handy just in case if I do see it: I can snap a pic of it.
I have a pic of my Cruiser on the X1-I sure wish I could place it up here. Geocities is so lame with all of their rules.
It'll be on TransiTalk Soon for those who would want to see it.
#1979 X1
#1979 3 7 Ave Express
www.transitalk.org
Me too mines is also 1979. Would its nice ride on a subway car that has you birth year number on a subway line that has either your first or last initial. My first initial is M and last initial is L. I would be trill to see 1979 car number appear on one of the cars from either M Train or L Train
Mine is 1956. I finally saw it a year or two ago.
Jr. says I'll never find mine... they don't have any cars with negative numbers that would correspond to B.C.E. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL
Maybe I'll get lucky in November and find mine, 1944.
Fytton.
I rode and operated the car with my birth year. 1977
yesterday around 7:00PM was driving down Linden BLvd and i went PAss Linden Shop and saw R-142 - #7041=7042=7043-7044=7045 still had the Blue Plastic on the Front i keep you update about cars at Linden Shops
This came up in the shouting conductor/passanger thread and it doesn't sit right with me. I posted about a C/R and Platform C/R closing down a train while over 30+ people tried to board and got lambasted with comments "Oh the train has to keep schedule".
Here is the G.O. on the Brighton, all weekend Northbound trains will run express Kings Hwy to Prospect Park not stopping at Newkirk, Southbounds make all stops.
(Keeping a long post short) A south train arrives at Kings Hwy and customers see the northbound just about entering the station. They run for the train about half get on when the C/R closes down the rear and yells not to hold the doors in the front with the platform C/R telling people to get away from the doors, stranding about 30+.
Why couldn't they hold the doors a minute or two more??
I was told by other posters they have to keep schedule. Does this mean the weekend employee timetable (in RR terms) was changed because of the G.O.?? I would believe that running express to Prospect Park skipping Newkirk could make up a 1 to 2 minute loss (9 out of 10 trains didn't even slow for the work zone @ Newkirk, just your normal coast through skip stop speed).
When this G.O. was reversed and south trains were running express to the Hwy, all of them were gapped at the hwy for being hot. This allowed customers to cross over. No trains were being held at Prospect (I guess DeKalb tower sleeps on weekend) for being hot.
Why can't they build this meet into the G.O. or at least allow north Q's to dwell a little longer during the G.O. at Kings Hwy??
This would also help the Platform C/R (who I assume is there because of the G.O.) from all the NICE comments he got from the stranded customers.
(Next train arrived in 8 minutes)
I wish I had seen that you moved the question.
Read these two posts from the previous thread for some explanation:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=370012
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=370013
Another story at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/13/nyregion/13TRAN.html
Pretty much all of the "A" list items would be funded. Some of the "B" and "C" list stuff would not be, but that's OK - you make the list long, and hope that the really important things happen. That appears to be the case here.
NYCTA is letting a contract for phase 2 of signal upgrades on the 7. Among the items are replacing air-operated equipment with electrical equipment (Jersey Mike hates that, right?).
Also, note the following:
"Move cross-over switches from south of 69th Street to both north and south of 74th Street" (again,referring to the 7 line.
What is the purpose of this change in switch location?
Hmmm. Maybe so a GO'ed express train could stop at 74th/Broadway for the connection with the IND?
:-) Andrew
Or certain trains could run local or express only from Queensborough Plaza to 74th and then express or local to Main Street, or express/local from Main to 74th and then local/express the rest of the way
I don't think that's it. After all, they've got the switches now between 69th and 61st -- they're just moving them from one location to another. They could run now express from QBP to 74th now -- they'd just have to go through 69th on the local platform.
I doubt they're looking to utilize these switches during peak periods, and certainly not looking to add another express stop. Remember, a few years back, they wanted to eliminate 61st from the express.
CG
They actually DID remove 61st St from the express for a while there, if you look back at some old maps.
:-) Andrew
Wow. That could mean that they plan on crossing some express trains over to the local track at 74th for one stop during the rush hour. God knows 74th st needs more service.
Wow. That could mean that they plan on crossing some express trains over to the local track at 74th for one stop during the rush hour. God knows 74th st needs more service.
I doubt that. That would mean the express would have to merge with the local an extra time, and that can cause unnecessary delays. I reckon they're doing it for GO's
:-) Andrew
What about during mid-day express runs? Service isn't as intensive them.
--Mark
Mighty handy for a delay in service though.
That sounds good.
How many times have you heard this on a local train?
"This train is now going express, EXPRESS....next stop is 74th street, then Junction Blvd....I repeat 74th street, then Junction Blvd...."
In fact this happened to me a couple of weeks ago when I was going to a Met game.
Now they can switch after 74 so the people on 82 and 90 don't punch and kick the shiny silverbirds as it rips through their station....they would have to throw something instead.
Although I do see this more practially if a stretch of let's say 69 - 90 sts. is skipped in 1 direction, 74th st. is too vital of a transfer point for one direction to be affected by a GO, so they would take a couple of minutes of switching tracks to please customers going in the direction of the GO
=)
In Pelham, they didn't kick in those cars, they shot out their interiors. Plenty of bullet holes in the stainless wall curtains filled with silicone for Flushingites to gaze at on future rides home.
Ahem. For the most parts, the Pelham cars are going across town to the 1 and 3, and the 1 and 3 are sending their cars to the 7. No clue why, but I don't like it.
What difference does it make? An R62A is an R62A.
Why don't they just send them right from Pelham to Flushing?
See GSB's post. The West Side R-62A's are in slightly better cosmetic shape than the East Side R-62A's. We took care of our trains; why don't we get to keep them?
Ah yes, the 7th Ave line's riders have well cared for trains, so let's send them to Flushing, and give them the beat up Lexington trains.....
They'll still see the trainset merging off the local track and onto the express track. I doubt that relieves any anger that they would have built up if the train bypassed the local station on the local track.
I just hope it don't ruin that nice swift express run between 61st and Junction. Knowing the TA they will put more timers in with the new switches and signals.
Yes, of course. That'll make the fast pace of the run all the more stinky...
Here's a Link to the story:
Acela Cracks
Those yaw dampers are a problem on the LIRR power as well.
Anyone interested on a Sept 15th Field Trip on the first revenue train to South Ferry? Does anyone have any info on what time this train leaves and where we have to be to catch it?
I wish I could make it. I'm starting my vacation that day.
However, my advice would be to go to Chambers Street southbound, early, and just wait. And I bet you won't be the only ones doing that...
I'd almost bet cash that the "public" won't be allowed on the first one through - dignitaries, photo ops and all. With the elections SO close now, I expect that the first train down and back will be "VIP's only" ...
O.K., so you make the fantrip on the first *public* train. Unfortunately I won't be in NY until November, so I can't join you. But I will ride to South Ferry in November.
I rode on the first public London Underground Piccadilly Line train to Heathrow Airport in 1997 (along with several thousand other people) -- but it wasn't the one the Queen "drove", that went first! I also rode on the first Victoria Line train into Victoria ten years earlier -- and that had no ceremony at all, no official opening, they just slid it in, in the middle of a weekday. It wasn't even crowded. At Warren Street station (which had been the temporary terminus until then), the PA announcer said "The next train into this platform will be the first ever train from Warren Street to Victoria" -- I think he enjoyed saying it.
Fytton.
I will be there! As soon as the date was announced I posted a msg asking who would ride it with me and no one answered. I guess you made a better title. Anyhow, Chambers SB does sound good. You just play it by year, like we did to ride the first "Public" train over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge last July.
I'm actually hoping that I'll be WRONG here and that our fellow foamers will be on the first actual train through. But then again, I have faith in our electeds ... :)
I'll be there, assuming it's on 9/15 as planned.
As the date approaches, someone here will probably have the details. My guess is that, at some point around midnight, 1's out of 242nd will start going to South Ferry instead of just Chambers (New Lots 1 service ends a few hours earlier), in which case I'll probably board at 96th (or I may go up to 242nd if I have time). The other possibility is that a train will be sent light to Chambers and will sit on the local track until it gets the signal to go; in that case, of course, I'll have to wait for it at Chambers.
STations will also have to staff booths at Rector and South Ferry as well as Cortlandt BMT. I expect they will put out a bulletin. When I get info from Stations, I will post the info.
I hear you-- the SAs who picked those stations will have to be notified as will lunchr eliefs whose sachedule calls for them to go to Rector (IRT), Cortlandt BMT and SOuth Ferry.
I also expect, therte will be some sort of poster going up system wide to announce the ropening as well as on the mta.info web site.
In the past they have put out bulletins for booth closing/reopenings due to renovations and I expect one for this time.
I could check the work programs about the first train to SF and see but going to 242St? remember you gotta go by bus(GO).
I'll miss the opening by a month, but will definitely ride on that stretch during my visit two months hence.
I'll miss it by a couple of weeks. Wish I could move my trip but I have AirPlane Tix and PriceLine rooms already so I'll have to make the ride 2 weeks late.
I love to ride the train to SouthFerry and sit in the back cars. The tourists get so 'stupid' when the doors dont open and they have to figure out how to walk thru the cars.
My aunt had a similar experience back in 1959. She was on her way to the battery and went around the loop at least twice before finally asking a conductor how to get off. He explained that only the doors in the first five cars open at South Ferry. Naturally I asked if the trains were new R consists or Lo-Vs; she couldn't remember. All of this raises an interesting question: were 10-car local trains being operated in 1959? Perhaps my aunt was on a Lexington Ave. express.
e mail me at
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
i will be there on that date may i ride on that train ??
thanks for the information !
I'm gonna sound pretty stupid, but when exactly will the line reopen? I know the september 15 thing, but will it be like midnight? noon? morning rush? I thought I heard that it would be midnight, that may be hard, but any other time would be great, I would love to see something like this happening, I have missed quite a few other notable events, and this sounds like something worth being there for, 9/11 memories aside, merely as a railfan thing.
I hope that the event is sometime in the AM of 9/15 and not too late into the afternoon. In case no one looked at a calendar the evening of 9/15 at sundown starts the most solemn day in the Jewish Calendar --YOM KIPPUR. Hopefully the bigwigs and Mayor Bloomie are aware of it.
9/15 at midnight. We're fine. It's the only Saturday night in a four-week period that isn't a yom tov.
Yeah, they planned this just right!
B"H
what better time to start a new service, but when traffic will be reduced.... sounds like a great plan.
Most Interested.
Something has several treains backed up NoerthBound at QBP right now. You can see two of them on the webcam. Wonder what gives.
http://nyctmc.org/Xview_still.asp?cam_id=54&server=RS2&address=Queens+Plaza+N+%40+Queens+Boro+Bridge
Since the Where is? posts seem to have a taken a giant leap lately, I thought I would get in mine.
The picture is at http://home.att.net/~alabianca/mysloc.jpg.
It is from the NY Historical Society and dated 1878. The cross girders between tracks are stamped 1878. On the right side of the picture (clipped in this scan) is a small side street, approx 20' wide (real street, curb corners and all); the next corner is where the truck is parked on the right.
Well I'm going to get in my guess and say 1st Avenue at 1st St, facing north to 8th St on the 2nd Ave El. (with that being 44 1st Avenue on the left hand side).
Nice old shot, the el looks pretty new yet! I don't know where the photo is, but have a question about the photo - What kind of rails are those? About when did they start using normal rails on the els?
There are normal steel rails down there but they're using timbers as double guard rails (both sides of the running rails).
They were fairly paranoid about trains falling in the street when the els were new, but it didn't happen too often.
Actually kinda humorous, the concept. Like WOOD is gonna stop 50 tons of errant pig iron if it wants to go somewhere. :)
If it's a simple derailment at no great speed (i.e., no great inclination to tip over), it could help a lot.
Probably ... then again, I've seen what happens to wood left on tracks also (and no, wasn't me that put it there) ... I think the guys at Branford can describe it too when someone rolls over a "wedgie." :)
I think the guys at Branford can describe it too when someone rolls over a "wedgie."
Yeah... it's called "toothpicks". (Someone made a few this past Saturday and it wasn't me... they left the evidence alongside track 32.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Feh, call it a "snow wedge that got a bris" ... A little glue, a couple of turns of electrical tape and it'll be good as nu. :)
Apparently they're weren't very paranoid about 12-9's, or whatever they were called back then.
but it didn't happen too often
Actually I remember seeing in a book (I think in "The New York Elevated") where a train fell off of the elevated structure. The photo shows the train hanging off the structure, dangling in front of the nearby buildings. I think it was the Lexington El in Brooklyn, but I don't remember, and I don't own the book, so I can't check (It was from the library). It was a real mess though, maybe someone else here knows more about it.
Chris
Probably you're referring to the Atlantic Avenue wreck on the 5th Avenue el, June 25, 1923.
There was a similar plunge for the sidewalk when a train split the switch where the 6th left the 9th at 53rd St.
But still, they didn't do that too often, though it was a spectacle when it did.
What looks like the rails are wooden guard rails on each side of the iron/steel running rails. This was standard on the els in steam days.
The outer guard rail was removed in the electric era as the running rails increased in weight due to greater car weights.
What I find interesting in this picture is the uniformed man standing on the guard rail having either "tightroped" across the beam or walked out from a nearby station.
Exactly, Just what would he do if he got trapped by an oncoming train?
JUMP!!!!!
As for how that uniformed guy got there, I would guess that he walked from wherever the photographer is standing. I'm thinking there's a station platform under the photographer, and that the uniformed guy just walked 50-75 feet down the tracks along the wooden guards.
Frank Hicks
Looks like street car or freight tracks under the el.
I'm not totally sure, but I believe we are looking at the Third Avenue El, so the tracks are streetcar (horsecar). Cable won't make it to Third Avenue until 1894.
Might that be the 9th Avenue El?
IIRC, the 9th Av El was run by "the New York Elevated Railroad", the 6th by "Rufus Gilbert's Elevated Company" and 2nd & 3rd by "the Manhattan Elevated Railroad" (a company in which the other two had a half stake each). The cars say "The New York Elevated Railroad" on the side, so it may well be 9th.
Added to this, when the 9th Avenue El was reconstructed for steam power, the tracks were moved to the outside of the structure as in the picture to leave space for a center track.
Third ave near ninth st.
After seeing this picture in the morning, I went to the GCT Tranist museum during lunch and saw that they had the exact same picture on the wall in that back. Would'nt have had any idea w/o that...
BTW, Hello all. I've been lurking on this board a good three years now... so I figured I should post something eventually.
That is all.
-Blair Lorenzo
Where is Joe Frank??!!
It would be helpful if you could re-scan the missing right part
of the picture. If indeed it is 3rd Ave & 9th st, there might
be some important clues there to confirm that location.
I'm on my way to Harlem, and when I get to the stop at East 180th I see a crowd of people looking to get on the express bus. I come to find out that there was a train some distance down the line that became disjointed in-service. Does anyone have info on the culprit?
Stalled train at 149.
Anyone 'in the know' with information in regard to any more 143's being either accepted for service or accepted for CBTC testing, etc. please post information here.
Last report had 108 or so MU's accepted for service.
Thanks!
Subwaybuff@mindspring will probably answer that or TrainDude. The Last Car I saw was 8220.
Here's an amusing article from the New York Times about the "Subway Globe" lights at station entrances.
New York Times
It is a great story. It's a part of why the subway is ingrained in NY's culture.
Of course, the globes used to tell you what system you were entering, rather than the entrance status.
If my memory serves me right, the IRT favored round globes, one blue and one white. The IND had sort-of rounded cubes, green and white, or maybe both green. The BMT had the nicest, 8 sided lantern gloves, green and white, with the word SUBWAY imprinted.
The BMT and IRT also had characterisrtic geometric shapes, triangle for the BMT, ying-yang for the IRT.
The BMT had the nicest, 8 sided lantern gloves, green and white, with the word SUBWAY imprinted.
Like this:
Wish they were still around...
Wow, those are pretty nice. I don't remember ever seeing those, but I do remember the white square-like ones from when I was a kid.
What ever happened to all of those BMT globes? The one in the picture is obviously not at the head of a stairway.
It would be nice to be able to buy one or two.
Any suggestions?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
What ever happened to all of those BMT globes? The one in the picture is obviously not at the head of a stairway.
The picture was taken at the Fall Trolley Extravaganza in East Prussia, PA a couple of years ago - a few minutes later this globe was on its way to my house ;-) (and my wallet was a few hundred $$$ lighter)...
There's another Extravaganza next month .... 9/20 and 9/21.
--Mark
And look at the bottom of the article...there's a quote from New York Division-ERA Director Larry Furlong!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Current official definitions:
Green-- always open withj no restriction
Red- there is some restrictions uch as ezit only, open during certain houra, MetroCard entry only, etc. Check the entrance signage for details.
One caveat here-- some stations have had changes in entrance/exit usage and the street globes are not changed.
As I tell customers: think oif a traffic light- Green is go and red is stop (and read the signs)
Current official definitions:
Green-- always open withj no restriction
Red- there is some restrictions uch as ezit only, open during certain houra, MetroCard entry only, etc. Check the entrance signage for details.
One caveat here-- some stations have had changes in entrance/exit usage and the street globes are not changed.
As I tell customers: think oif a traffic light- Green is go and red is stop (and read the signs)
Could you have a Golden Globe award for the best station signage?
:0)
At one point, weren't there yellow globes too, for entrances where the clerk was there part time?
Yes, there were, as mentioned in the article. They didn't last long.
David
Here is a globe now up for sale on eBay (I am not the seller)... These are not the round globes described - yet they are not the originals either. Does anyone know when these started appearing?
Also I wonder what they are worth without the MTA decals - I have two plain ones I bought at one of the Transit Museum tag sales years ago.
I remember them - they were used just after the MTA was formed, late 60's, some still around in the early 70's ... with all the vandalism, they didn't last long either.
Aren't there similar globes at the Transit Museum itself?
Randy Kennedy still continues to amaze me. There are some cube indicators at the entrances for the F train at stops nearest the Jamaica terminal. Any info as to how long they've been there?
What do you mean by "cube indicators"? Do you mean this sort of thing?
If so, you'll find them all over the place, especially in Manhattan. They were all the rage in the 80's. They're just globes of a different shape. The color code is identical.
I like those cubes. There should be more of them - and they should retain the two-tone blue M because it's easier to recognize at a distance that the new MTA logo.
I agree on the two-tone M, but I prefer the true globes myself. The cubes look too much like a product of the 70's (I know they were actually installed in the 80's -- in fact, the station entrance in that photo was first opened in 1987 or 1988).
and they should retain the two-tone blue M because
Nah!
The *should* have retaiined the red and blue "ta"!
*that* Logo had class!
Elias
You've got my vote on that one ... "ta" forever! :)
I liked the original logo, with the R10 coming out of the map of NYC.
I agree - of all the post-1940 schemes I like it the best
Those were the hubcaps on MY trains (well, the brightliners anyway) ... the R9's said "CITY OF NEW YORK" ...
Yes, that's it.
HEY!! I didn't know what elese to call them...
Here are two for you. Since I took these myself, I know the exact answers. Obviously, there is more to be explained in these photos than the location. The date on both is 1965. Notice that the R27 is the very first pair (8020-8021), though that may not figure in the answer. The answer to an unfortunately large number of "mystery" photos is: "It was a fantrip!" But these aren't fantrips. Have fun!
Paul,
The first looks to me like a mislabled Franklin Avenue Shuttle, with the photo taken from the southern end of the original "southbound" platform. If I am not mistaken, the platform on the right-handed side of the photo is the original "northbound" platform, extended out over the original trackway with wooden boards.
I have no idea where the second photo was taken.
subfan
Correction, the 2nd photo is probably 1960 or 1961.
My guess would be that the R-27 is at Franklin Ave. on the shuttle. Also, the Low-V appears to be one of the ones converted for BMT use and is also on the Franklin Shuttle. My guess would also be that the R-27 cars pinch-hitted for the Low-Vs while they were either under repair or inspection.
Franklin shuttle possibly?
Looks like both @ Franklin to me (you can see the same light posts on the far platform). Does the Low-V train in the second photo have the "gap fillers"? Hard to see. But it would be about the same time the BMT had some Low-V loaners pictured elsewhere on this site. As for the first, if it's not a fantrip... IND letters only on the route letter roll sign? Can't be a weird G.O. or emergency sending a short A train via Houston St. and Manhattan Bridge since that wasn't open in 1965.
Alright Paul....did you play with the rollsigns on that train?
In the aggregate, one or more of us got all the major points, save one.
Both pictures are Franklin Avenue station on the Franklin Avenue Line. The Lo-V, prob. winter of 1960-61, was one of the group modified with skirts (kinda like C-types) for use on the BMT during the critical car shortage before enough R27s were available. Note: both the old BMT and IRT cars were far more snow reliable than either the R16s or R27/30s. In addition to other issues, the R27s had terrible door problems, even in nice weather, no less snow.
The R27 was used early in first use of R-types on the shuttle. The missed point, which you had to know the specific background behind, is the "A" designation. This was not an error, or at least not intentionally an error. There was no protocol on how to sign the shuttle trains, and the R27s didn't have "7", like the R11s. So a couple of the motormen got it into their heads to sign them "A" on the reasoning that the shuttle was a connection to the A Line. The pictured train was one of these.
And Broooklynites allowed BMT motormen to sign up the "Route of the Lucky Luciano" with an IND route and didn't beat them to a pulp for betraying the BMT? Wow, how things have changed. :)
Pretty interesting photos, Paul.
On a side-note, while talking about the shuttle:
Did all of the BMT/IND sized equipment (That and the Low V's obviously from the photo) run on the Franklin shuttle at one point or another? I've seen photos of the R16's there, and have ridden R32 and R38's there. The R27-30 ran there. Now the R68's are there. Did the other equipment run there at least somewhat regularly there also?
I think that portion of the Brighton Line between Franlin Avenue and Prospect Park must hold the record for kinds of equipment used in revenue service, including, at one time or another:
BF&CI (and B&BB) steam stock
LIRR steam stock
Every type of elevated gate car
Q-types
Standards
Triplexes
SIRT cars
Bluebird, Zephyr, Hornet
R1/9
R11
R16
R27/30
R32
R68
IRT Lo-V
I'm not sure about any of the following:
R10
R44
R46
And I doubt any of these ever ran:
Any type of IRT equipment other tjan Lo-Vs
C-types
Multis
Why not include the R-34s
Heheheheheeeeee........
Elias
Indeed.
Dang! I was hoping you'd be the one to tell him that the 34's were actually rebuilt 11's that LIVED there in their past life. :)
Dang! I was hoping you'd be the one to tell him that the 34's were actually rebuilt 11's that LIVED there in their past life.
But I already *knew* that!
So, how many OTHER cars have two contract numbers?
Elias
I can't think of any other. Earlier equipment (like the BMT Standards) underwent what I guess you could call "GOH Lite" but they didn't become R35s or something as a result.
Maybe they have contract numbers for the GOH but they don't apply them to car descriptions? AFter all, even counting work and utility equipment, we went awfully fast from R68 to R110 to R143.
AFter all, even counting work and utility equipment, we went awfully fast from R68 to R110 to R143.
And pretty fast from R143 to R160 also. I believe the R160's were designated that before the R143's even started to arrive!
Does anyone know what R144 through R159 are?
R99 was an overhaul of 236 R29s.
R110A is the same as R130.
R110B is the same as R131.
R110A is the same as R130.
R110B is the same as R131.
I noticed that on the "R" list on this site once and was wondering why they gave them two different numbers R110A/B and R130-R131?
They have all those numbers to give railfans something to keep track of in their spare time. Keeps us off the street.
IIRC R110 was the design study for those cars - when they finally built them they gave them the numbers R130-R131, but the association with the design study led to them being more associated with the R110 number.
The R-110As were IRT-sized cars while the R-110Bs were IND/BMT-sized. I would imagine A Division and B division designations had something to do with it.
No, I think you misunderstood. I know the difference between the R110A and R110B, but I don't know why the R110A also has a contract number of R130, and R110B is also called R131.
"R" numbers are contract numbers, which don't necessarily translate to a particular piece of equipment.
"R110 (A and B)" was the number of the contracts under which the cars were designed. The contracts to build then were R130 and R131. So actually we should be referring to the cars as R130 and R131 if we want to be consistent with other equipment.
I think that's clear, but let me put it this way--if I was was awarded the R110A contract, I would be making studies and delivering documentation. If I wsa awarded the R130 contract, I'd be delivering finished subway cars.
That clears it up a bit. How does that work with let's say the R143's (or other equipment). Did they have a "design" number first and the "R143" is the "build" number?
No. The R110s had separate design numbers because they were prototypes or experimentals (sort of) that justified putting the design contract out for separate bid.
There is not a great deal of consistency in "R" contracts. For the initial orders of R1s, the car bodies were one contract, and the trucks and motors another. So there is really no ushc thing as an R1--it is properly an R1/2, and so on.
R numbers include such non-subway car stuff and locomotives and flat cars and overhead cranes and, in a few cases, contracts to rebuild existing equipment, like R34 to rebuild R11.
Thanks for the info. I guess I was confused because there is no consistency, like you said.....
You want consistancy? You get on a southbount (1) train and you end up at South Ferry!
: )
Yeah.... Right....
There is a certain consistency, but the rollsigns display more information than would always be consistent. A wholly consistent rollsign would only show something like this:
(1) 242nd St VCP - 7th Av Lcl
(2) 241st St Woodside - 7th Av
(3) 148th St Lenox (an inconsistent name in itself) - 7th Av Exp
(4) Woodlawn - Lex - Utica
(5) Dyre - Lex Exp
<5> 241st St Woodside - Lex Exp
(6) Lex Lcl - Brooklyn Bridge
<6> Pelham - Lex Lcl - Brooklyn Bridge
(7) Times Sq - Flushing Lcl
<7> Times Sq - Flushing Exp
(S) Times Sq - Grand Central - Shuttle
That would be pretty useless as a rollsign, but it would be just about consistent (except for when 5 trains end up on West Side and things - I never got why they don't call them 2 trains when they do that).
I believe the R46 has been used on that line.
Wow. When? Not like a fantrip, like they were used on the J/M line.
Hi. Just wondering about Franklin Ave. station on the shuttle. Would you say that the old set up when it was still connected to the Fulton el was similar to the Myrtle el at Grand St.? I always thought that the Franklin Ave. station was so close to Fulton that I couldn't see where it was possible for a connection. Was it a very sharp/tight curve or was there some adjustments done to the station or both? Thanks.
It was a very sharp curve, I guess analogous to Myrtle/Grand. In this photo of Franklin Avenue station, taken from the Fulton Street end, notice the "bite" out of the concrete, which helped provide clearance for turning L cars.
Wow, you're not kidding. I thought the station was really close to Fulton. That is a great picture. That really explains a lot.
Thanks, Paul
I have seen pictures or personally ridden almost every R type except the R44/46 on this shuttle.
Wow, I didn't realize that. Somehow I can't picture the R42's or R40 slants there....pretty cool.
R42 on Franklin shuttle, @ 1970:
I can't find an R40 pic, as the only identifiable R40 pic on the Franklin Shuttle on this site is misidentified and identical to the above pic.
I'm rapidly coming to the opinion that Erie-Lackamoney MU's ran on the Frankie too. And if it's up to ONE of our co-conspirators here, the AIRTRAIN will run on the Frankie before it runs to the airport too. :)
Well, we all no that the real reason for it closing for all that time was that they tried to run LU 1959 stock on it, as they were really short of cars. Unfortunately the gap between the train and the platform was very large and the different electrical system maanged to shortcircuit all the third rail on the line, electrolysing the streets below, resulting in a taxi levitating off Fulton Street and getting stuck to the bottom of the elevated structure.
</UrbanLegendCreation>
Hahahaha ...
Damn! I never knew that something as modern as R-42's worked the Franklin that early in their careers! Impressive...
Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool myself.
I think back then they ran everything everywhere. R42's, when new, were evenly distrubed to every B division yard (which is why they so quickly fell into disrepair).
I'd have to guess Franklin Av shuttle. I can't think of anywhere else a B Division car would be on a single-track elevated platform like that in the 1960's.
I know the BMT 14th Street line has a stop where one platform is above ground and one is below. I don't think that is it, though. But if I'm wrong about the Franklin Shuttle, that would be my second under-educated guess.
Don't know about the second photo...
Paul,
I thought BMT Standards were assigned to the shuttle about that time.
Also, wasn't (SS) Shuttle on those R-27 signs ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The tried out R27s. I believe they went back to Standards. There was also the R11, in a train of 3, or made up 1+2 with R27s.
That photo is Spring 1965. As we discussed in another thread, photos can lie, but that one doesn't.
I don't recall that they used the "SS" at that time. I don't know why...
That looks like a R34 in the rear. Love this one. Didn't realize they mixed them on the shuttle.
Yup, the R11/34 was the means they used to make a 3-car R-type for the shuttle, with R27s or R32s.
That's a pretty decent trivia, I guess, for asking whether there were ever 3-car trains with R27's or later.
Gotham Turnstiles has photos of a solid R-11 3-car shuttle train.
I lived in Crown Heights from 1964 to 1976, so I rode the Franklin Shuttle often. I do remember 3-car trains of R-11/R-34s (around the late 60s), then around 1970-71 I would occasionally see the one R-11 with a pair of R-32s (probably because some of the R-11s had been retired). By the mid-70s, it was all 4-car R-32s (sometimes R-27/R-30s) I moved from Brooklyn in 1976 and didnt visit the Prospect Park station again until 1991, by which time the R-68s had taken over, AFAIK.
They mixed 34's with 32's on the mainlines too. I think that was the whole purpose of the R11 rebuild, so that they'd be made compatible with the 32's, right down to the "Brightliner blue" doors. The 11's I *believe* originally had stainless door panels that were painted blue when they were redone as 34's ... if so, I'm looking at Bill Newkirk's shot of the 34's headed south to Coney marked up as R11's.
Could there be a ballbusting opportunity here for Unca Bill Newkirk about this year's calendar? :)
>>Could there be a ballbusting opportunity here for Unca Bill Newkirk about this year's calendar? :)<<
Be my guest Mr. Arnine !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh. Nah, was just wondering because my understanding of the "rules of spotting" is that the "Brightliner blue" color of the storm and side doors on the R11's was done when they were made by the GOH fairy into 34's and that the R11's originally had non-painted doors. I'm in the sad situation of not knowing what the REAL answer is. But bustini, bustini anyway just for the hallibut. :)
OK, OK, who am I to deny you your little pleasures.
The R11 as delivered had stainless steel (unpainted) doors. I suppose they went blue attheGOH.
R32s were delivered with blue painted doors.
R38s were all silver as delivered with a nice light blue pinstripe.
You're welcome! Now you can do something for me!
Don't talk about Joe Bruno for a day. ;-)
Mum's the word. :)
>>The R11 as delivered had stainless steel (unpainted) doors. I suppose they went blue attheGOH.<<
The R-11 doors and pantograph gates were painted blue during the R-34 overhaul to match the R-32's. After all, the R-32 were the only stainless steel cars on the subway at that time.
Now, in a matter of months, every car will be stainless steel. Not counting work and museum equipment.
Bill "Newkirk"
Sorry to have brought it up in the first place. One of my sharp-eyed pain in the butt beer buddies looked at your calendar on the wall and said, "they ain't 11's, they're 34's ... look at the blue" ... what can I say? Wisearses live a LONG life upstate. Some even get elected. (I say that because it's our former mayor that noted the difference) :)
Kevin, I can see that you didn't hang around much on the Franklin Shuttle....otherwise you'd have been more informed on the particulars of the R-11 cars...for SHAME!
I got a couple of them here and there mixed with 32's on D trains and thought them quite interesting with the "A train seating arrangements" and the funny windows and all. But they worked, so I didn't care.
But NOBODY ... and I mean NOBODY has spent as much time on the Frankie as you have, not even retirees who picked the line. :)
I never saw an R-11 in revenue service in any shape or form. Unless they made a brief appearance on the A. I know I saw an occasional car in an A consist (even an entire train once) with twin circular windows on the side door leaves, and they were wearing R-10 colors. Too bad I didn't get any car numbers.
Wouldn't have been R11's ... from their INCEPTION (aside from funky looking windows and those portholes) they ALWAYS looked like R32's primarily (stainless and ribbed) and as far as I know were NEVER painted. In fact the 11's looked *SO* much like the 32's that they were rebuilt to look MORE like the 32's.
Now you may recall me mentioning that I had seen IRT CARS mixed from time to time with IND cars in "uber-schmorgastrains" and yes, I can CONFIRM that I too have seen some R12's and R15's mixed in back in the late 60's ... '68, '69 here and there for reasons nobody has ever been able to fathom despite the 6 inch GAP owing to the different car widths ...
Try THIS or THIS on for size and tell me if it looks familiar. I've seen them myself though RARELY mixed with R10's in that distant time and it was BEFORE I discovered "mushrooms" so that ain't the reason I saw them. :)
Since the R-11s were built by BUDD, it was neat that they ran in trains coupled with their fellow BUDD brethren, the R-32s.
If they had removed the curviness of the rooftops, and busted out the windows and redid them, nobody would have KNOWN they weren't 32's. They were very spiffy cars, and when I found out how OLD they were, it was a true shock. Nice of the TA to go forward into the past when the Brightliners were bought though, no?
No, it wasn't R-15s that I saw at 14th St. on the 8th Ave. line that Saturday. I was on the n/b platform and a s/b A train roared in. I'm here to tell you all ten teal-and-white cars in that train had twin circular door leaf windows. They had to be R-10s. Maybe I was hallucinating. Even Mister R-10, William Padron, can't confirm what I saw.
Don't feel bad, I've got my OWN subway pookah thingy going on over what it was that I saw on teh Frankie when I was a kid ... if it was due to a hallucination, sure would love to find that soda shop again. :)
Perhaps it was an R 10 with a door job. They did seem to mix and match back then. When they retired the 34's, maybe they re-used some of the doors?
By the way, I remember several runs on the Frankie with the 27/30's and I could SWEAR that I rode either standards or other funky cars with four pane windows on the doors and the doors were on the OUTSIDE of the car as opposed to being in "pockets" as is the custom. Looked like the "B types" described here though my memory of them was hazy.
What can I say? When I joyrided the subway, I was never terribly interested in the CARS ... my nose was planted firmly on the glass up front when I wasn't kibbitzing with the crew and watching them do their thing and checking out the ROUTE ... tracks and switches and signals and things along the walls or wayside was what my thrill was, that and shooting the sheet with the crews.
I guess that's why I always had to pay someone else to fix my CAR. Heh. I could also swear that I rode some bingbongs out there in the early 70's after my TA time. But I also rode the Culver while it lasted too, always loved the downstairs, the ride up the cut and that sharp curve into the side of the station on the el.
But yeah, I confess, I didn't pay much attention to the 11's, they looked like funky 32's to me and the BMT always had so many oddball "see it once, never see it again" type cars for this Bronx boy. If you'd grown up in Da Bronx, we had *BORING* subway cars no matter what you rode - all the same in the fleet at the time. That was a particular reason why I really enjoyed the third avenue el with the WF's and the LoV's ... they too were familiar from my "yoot" but didn't run everywhere else.
Redbirds and R9/R10's were everywhere, nothing special about those. Wasn't until the R9's started getting replaced that they BECAME special, something that a lot of folks here are beginning to appreciate like I did with my old homies now that the 'boids are disappearing. :)
I could SWEAR that I rode either standards or other funky cars with four pane windows on the doors and the doors were on the OUTSIDE of the car as opposed to being in "pockets" as is the custom. Looked like the "B types" described here though my memory of them was hazy.
That would describe the C-types. I don't know that the C-types ever operated on the shuttle, but why not? Almost everything else did. Were you riding during or before 1956? The C-types looked nothing like Standards, though.
Early 60's for that particular number. They were WEIRD cars, seemed like they were once wood converted to metal on the outside, they were STRANGE cars, that's all I really remember about them other than the strange windows on the doors (much like those four pane jobs you'd see in attics and REALLY old houses) ... they SEEMED older than the Q cars on the Myrtle and smelled funny. MUSTY like ...
OOOooooo ... another hint ... they had this really strange dark green paint with what looked like silver and gold flecks in it ...
We got like a mixed metaphor going here. Most of your description is like C-types, but they were quite gone by the early '60s (or late '50s for that matter).
That flecked paint was on the BMT standards, but they did not have doors like that and they sure weren't older looking than the Qs.
Triplexes had doors like that but not outside hung. I don't think any of the triplexes got that silly flecked paint.
You weren't eating weird mushrooms while railfanning, were you? That would explain a lot.
Well, yeah, I was eating weird mushrooms ... only problem was it as about 15 years later. Heh. Like I said, my memory was hazy, I was about TEN at the time and the bug hadn't quite bitten. Ended up on the Franky owing to a service disruption on the A train coming back from the Rotaways, got redirected to the Brighton. I *knew* the Standards then, so we can at least be CERTAIN that what I rode wasn't a standard. I knew the Q cars from the Myrtle because I ended up there by accident once and really LIKED the cars. So it wasn't Q's ...
Pretty much ANYTHING else was a possibility. Including Foo cars from the H&M. I dunno. Now pass me that bone. :)
Here's a few more things that might help. The doors GROANED like they were moving on something serrated. I don't remember "air" from them (standards, R9's and such) ... the windows were SMALL but there were four of them and I *think* the cross separating the four panes was wood and I'm pretty sure the DOOR was too though I also remember diamond-embossed metal that was also painted green and wooden tops on the seats (rattan but thick woven, not thin woven like the IND) ...
Confused yet? Heh.
OK, OK. I understand now. You've joined a CONSPIRACY to drive old Unca Paul MAD, so you can INVADE my DOMAIN and plunder my COLLECTION. (Heh?)
But I know this won't happen, because my wife has a good left hook, is handy with a rifle, and my kids bite.
But to go back to your memory. If you were coming back from Rockaway, it is obviously 1956 or later--your description sounds like C-types. To the best of my knowledge, they did not do Franklin Shuttle after retiring from Fulton, but stranger things have happened. And if it's much later than 1956, FUHGEDDABOUDIT!
Doesn't match Lo-Vs or SIRT either. Were the seats all transverse, or were there cross-seats?
Heh. I promise I won't plunder. Can't raise the cash to run for office. (grin) I thought about it (just woke up) and it was summer of 1961. Yes, there were the older-style cross-seating like on the standards and the R10's and such. Don't go crazy over this, like I said my memories are MIGHTY hazy since it was a one-time thing. Whatever it was, it was ancient and "growly" (that's the kind of thing you remember from age ten unless you're already a foamer heh).
I actually *RODE* the old B&O cars on the SIRT all the way down to the swamp and back and I'm pretty sure it wasn't any of those either. If this all doesn't make sense though, I'd be just as inclined to let it slide and chalk it up to brain damage on my part. After all, my purpose here is to have fun, not give OTHER people brain damage. :)
But whatever it was, it's the only time I ever rode a train like that and I don't recall ever seeing anything QUITE like it again though some of the standards were somewhat similar but "newer" than what I recall having ridden on the Frankie. One thing I can definitely attest to about the Franklin though, it sure did have VARIETY, that's why I'd always make it a point later in life to catch it when I could.
They also used an R-11 tacked onto a pair of R-32s. That way, you had a stainless steel 3-car shuttle train.
SS was introduced in 1967.
As Paul pointed out the photo was taken in 1965.
This one looks like it was taken in the same exact spot.
Franklin Avenue on the FRANKLIN SHUTTLE!!! But of course...
I never got why that station isn't called Fulton Street.
The station didn't exist until the Kings County hooked up with the B&BB to begin operating through to Newkirk Avenue (yes, steam and electric coexisted for a while).
So the KC evidently named the station to coincide with their own existing station named ... Franklin Avenue!
We tend to look at it from the Brighton point of view--i.e., the terminal of the Brighton (Franklin) at Fulton Street. But until 1920, it was a way station and junction on the Brighton and Fulton Lines, nothing more.
Looking at it from that point of view, all the "Brighton" stations west of Franklin/Fulton, were "Fulton Street."
Yes, but none of the stations on Fulton Street West of Franklin Avenue had lines branching off along the named street. At the very least, a renaming to Franklin & Fulton would have been sensible. (I hate to resurrect long dead threads, but Bedford Junction anyone?)
We tend to look at it from the Brighton point of view
A more natural point of view - the Brighton Line still exists, unlike the BMT Fulton St Line.
But until 1920
It is now 2002. It would be more up to date for a C/R to announce Hudson Terminal rather than WTC than to pretend "Franklin Avenue" is still a through station.
I understand your points, James. I was just giving you the historical background to describe "how we got here." :)
It's just a question of the TA "getting off the dime" to make a sensible change of the BMT station name to "Fulton Street" or "Franklin/Fulton," which would have made sense to me. Even better, I would have like the station to have been "Bedford Junction (Franklin/Fulton)" on the A, C and SS alike.
A perfect time to have done this was when they rebuilt the line. But they didn't. Who knows why? Maybe they didn't think of it. Maybe they already ordered "Franklin Avenue" signs. Maybe they didn't want to change roll signs.
It doesn't matter. It wouldn't be the first time the TA missed the chance to make something better.
A perfect time to have done this was when they rebuilt the line.
It sure would have - I guess we'll have to wait another hundred years.
Even better, I would have like the station to have been "Bedford Junction (Franklin/Fulton)" on the A, C and SS alike.
Yay!!! And while they're renaming stations round there, the IRT Franklin Avenue should become Botanic Garden like it is on the SS.
It wouldn't be the first time the TA missed the chance to make something better.
Hindsight's wonderful, isn't it? Hang on, who said we needed hindsight?
Good points there. I'm all for 'Bedford Junction'. Sounds alot classy too, than simply 'Franklin/Fulton'.
Doug
I'm glad they invested money into the shuttle, and they did a great job, but at the same time, I miss the "old" shuttle. It lost it's charm. I know it was a very necessary rehabilitation, but the line did have a lot of charm, especially that station.
Amusing how they had to glue on "Prospect Park" on the sign there. I know it was on most rollsigns on B division, but apparently they commandeered a D train (which didn't have it) and had to fake it.
It looks as though that "Prospect Park" sign is attached on the outside of the destination slot.
Sure did to me as well ... Unca Dougie already busted my chops about that, but I didn't get it. So I busted back. :P
Looks like somebody busted out the glass on the destination sign box.
The 8200s are here!
these carsw ere seen today:
8109-8112/8153-8156
8169-8172/8105-8108
8101-8104/8185-8188
8189-8192/8157-8160
8161-8164/8173-8176
8165-8168/8201-8204
The usual disclaimer applies- I work the line from 8th ave to Bedford and as cuh could have missed some in a yard or elsewhere on the line.
so how many cars in total?
see the R143 page on www.nycsubway.org
Fine job as always 'buff!
Now, how about watching for the 4400s and 4500s as their number dwindles to zippo?
With 8201-8204 in L service, that would be 92 on-line, 8 for CBTC Testing and a balance of 20 delivered or in acceptance testing. Kawasaki is coming into the home stretch!
The R-40Ms will contiunue their southward migration.
With the first Mod safely in place on the N (first time since 1970!), another 10-car R-32 train was shifted from Coney Island to Jamaica on Sunday, 8/11/02.
And the beat goes on....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Today I saw 8125-8127 and 8129=-8132. Weren't these in CBTC testing ? If not thius was their first appearance since they were pulled. BTW- last night I saw an R62 (Pelham- saw yellow edge under red stripe by number plate_
I will start tracking all cars on the L for you until the pick changes. I am off Tonight and Thursday (Both overnight periods) and return Friday overnight. G.O. on L Saturday will probably sidelien the R143. Next week I work Sundsay Overnight to Tuesday overnight, off Wed and Turs overnight, requested off Firday Overnight abd Sunday Pick Changes (So I dont go in Saturday overnight).
I will be at 191 on the 1 from 10pm to 6am with wed.a nd thurs. off
'Buff:
8117-8124 are the CBTC Test Cars.
Whatever you contribute is greatly appreciated.
What will you be doing when the new pick starts?
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
George,
Do you know if any R68's migrated to Concourse as well? Hopefully, none!
well there were a few in the yard and i also noticed about 5 or 6 4-car sets of 143's at the ENY yard today too.
Did you get numbers? I will be moving to a different booth on 8/25/02. We need an R143 spotter for the L .
the only one i was able to notice at Linden yard was a full set with the first set starting at 8111 and ending as 8109 i think,cant remember what that set was paired with.i also noticed 8202,03,04.i rode on car #8129. also saw 8105-08 paired with 8170-8174.i couldnt see the 4 car sets that were sitting at ENY yard,there were some 42's next to them plus i cant see far away.and finally i counted,including the one i rode on,6 R143's running yesterday.
The shakedown ACELA-rates and passengers suffer because Amtrak won't cave in to the vendetta and pay the vigorish ... You ain't gonna BELIEVE this ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=55318&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/13/2002
And this is your government here to sabotage your lives and remind you why the sheep hate civil servants.
Heh. And you wondered why I *quit* working for the state? I can sleep at night and LOOK, MOM! No stabwounds or peasants with torches on my lawn anymore. :)
But isn't this just AMAZING? None of the vendors will touch the air conditioning for fear of losing state contracts, and the restaurant's closed for the same reason. Cross Senator Joe and you might as well find a cardboard box and go live under a bridge abutment.
That all said, even *I* am amazed at the severity of this futtbucking. I knew our politicos were sleazy, but this is beyond anything I ever imagined. I'm wondering when they'll have guardsmen stationed along the tracks sniping at passing trains at the rate this is going.
My oh my. They are ruining a perfectly good corridor with their antics. SelkirkTMO, why don't you write an "anonymous" letter to the Times Union, stating the fact that strange things are happening too frequently on the Empire Corridor?
Don't need to write any letters. Everybody at the TU knows the score. The BIG problem you have is getting someone to put their NAME on it for the editor to have their "credible, QUOTABLE sources." But anyone who follows this for a living already knows WHY. Just can't publish it. Most amusing in the whole article was the "station will be demolished" ... ummm, Amtrak OWNS it and had NO intentions of moving.
You can just tell though that the reporter and the editor had to whittle things down a bit so as to not cross the line, yet you can tell very clearly by how the words were strung together than the reporter made no pretenses about "reading between the lines" ...
but ain't this some stuff though? I *loved* the quote from Sweeney there about "I hold your wallet, don't mess with me" ... and THAT is a QUOTE ... man, like we used to say in the Bronx, "what stunatz" ... "quelle baetzim" ... "mas grande cojones" ... "big brass clangers" ...
If a CIVILIAN used those terms, they'd be hauled off for extortion and conspiracy. But politicos walk ... gotta love it.
While visiting friends in NYCT, I heard on the 6 wire of yet another pullapart involving New Tech BOMBadier cars, at Mott Avenue. The saga continues. While I sit here on vacation alternating between sipping a cold one and laughing my a$$ off, I have to wonder if there is anyone in transit management who would like to buy a bridge. Yaw Dampers, A-frame cracks and Rockwell trucks make me feel I should give up my future in railroading and become a subcontractor for the various state agencies. Perhaps I will wake up in the morning with R142s in the ocean.
One thing for sure ... in THIS state, as long as you bow before our "Joe" up here and pay up, you'll NEVER do jail time, no matter WHAT kinda sheet you pull. Just promise some jobs (you don't HAVE to deliver any) and you're home free. :)
Dammit! Has bombsuckier any shame!
More appropriately, have they no LOCKWASHERS? :)
No, not that either. Maybe like some young couples today, they wanted a divorce and couldn't wait for the end of the line and filed for a separtation !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Heh, and just like our newlyweds, I see only the lawyers coming out ahead. :)
Yay!
Thier Acela HHP8 locomotives are also bad news. All HHP8s are sidelined due to cracks in the frame (shock absorber). This means all Acela Express traisna re canceled for now at least.
All Acela trainsets are unit design. Todd- Cold the AEM7 or 6xx series be used for these coaches while the HHP8 locomotives are repaired or is there a locomotive shortage.
>>Todd- Cold the AEM7 or 6xx series be used for these coaches while the HHP8 locomotives are repaired or is there a locomotive shortage.<<
6XX series engines ?
Are you referring to the E-60, A.K.A. as "the flying shoebox" ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes. I have seen the E60s or two AEM7s pulling the longer overnight trains.
Subway-Buff, it's not the HHP8 engines that are the problem. It's the Acela Express engines. The HHP8s *look* similar to the AE's but you can tell them apart as they are double-ended and have 600# series. The AE engines that have the problems are single-ended, and have numbers in the 20xx range.
Thanks! I rephrase my question- can Amtrak use the look alike 600# series engines for the Acela or use AEM7 or E60 engines.
BTW- Decela Debacle Day 2--dastardly delays
I don't think that's possible... the Acela Express trainsets were designed to be run as units. My guess is that non-AE engines can't MU with the AE passenger cars. It's not like the old days when you could just hook up couplers, air hoses, and (if necessary) electric portions. These new babies have too many electronics!
It's probbably not even physically possible. IIRC, to sepperate an Acela set is a shop proceedure. Very complicated interconnects, which is the norm for non articulated HSRs.
You guyz amaze me at the access you have...these posts are a primary source of tech info. Yes, there was a second pull apart. I spent an entire day as liason for Bomba sup inspecting five trainsets on a hot summers day...and I expect to find a few more incidents. Inside the WabCo coupler assembly is a threaded sleeve that must be screwed down upon adjustment and locked by a pin before final assembly. Installed in the trainset, the several pieces look like a 'bullseye' and the assembly is marked with 'witness paint' so as to assure continued observance of proper adjustment. What has happened is that either the assembly never received the locking pin befor final assembly or somehow the locking pin failed. When the sleeve begins to rotate and coupler slack is lost, you get 'bunka bunka' during acceleration and braking that only passengers notice between cars...until your trainset goes 'pullapart.' The warning during inspection is that the straight line struck across the bullseye had become fragmented...meaning that the sections of the coupling assembly are rotating. CI Peter
Thanks for that info! That is so cool. I love your posts.
--Brian
Man those BOMBardier R142's are crap. If these probs continue, they may have to be sent back, on a set by set basis, like LIRR is doing now with their troublesome bi-levels.
And where do they get sent back to??? Canada??? East 180th Street??/
No, they go back to 239th Yard. YaMon, we fix your train. Can you spare some gloves and lend me a screwdriver?
Oh Canada, you sold a bill of goods.
You smucked us with these trains.
Now we have work until we retire.
Oh Canada, you sold a bill of goods.
These trains don't work and
now you are stuck.
Oh Canada, you sold a bill of goods.
Waves of golden grain don't mean crap
and we say 'GoodBye.'
Sold a bill of goods, eh?:)
The first culprit with a pull apart was running in #5 shuttle service in the last hour. Oh well... Here we go again!
-Stef
Car 6397 was one of the cars involved in the incident today. When the pull apart happened, the cars did not separate by more than two feet. Passengers were able to safely cross from one car to the next during the evacuation.
Initially, I thought it was an unwanted uncoupling between two five-car families-the result of a bad add. However, the uncoupling actually happened between two cars that are part of the same five-car family. In other words, there was a link bar malfunction.
CI Peter should have all the details tomorrow, as nearly every 142 is being called to 239 for an inspection.
But the effects of the pull apart were felt well into the evening. Crews were out of place all day as a result.
I knew it!
This is very disturbing, even for Bombardier. The same day Amtrak pulls several Bombardier-built Acela trains, more Bombardier products are now under scrutiny in another major transit system (NYCT) for yet more quality control issues.
Did it pull away from 6396 or 6398? I'm glad the museum piece is still a single.
Oooooohhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Yes, I was called out in my vest in the yard to see the damage. What we had was a separation of four from six...an A car split from a B car. The four inch threaded rod stuck out from the link bar, described by 'higher management,' like an 'erected penus.' The threads were NOT damaged at all...coated with an anti-sieze compound still present after someone who was told NOT to clean it up did. The threaded sleeve is locked up securely as 'evidence.' Hoses are designed to break without breaking the fittings...did not see the big Cannon plugs but the other six car 'half' had wires bundled by a tie wrap. It is apparent that the link bar retaining sleeve was NOT secured internally by a pin...the pin was missing in the assembly...and heads will roll. Bombardier is now drilling 1/8th inch holes into the assembly for a borescope/tactile investigation for the presence of the pin. Another trainset was discovered with a problem upon the hole drilling on a coupler...sucker is massive steel and weighs hundreds of pounds.
Properly assembled, the coupler sleeves upon the end are a series of concentric rings that look like a bullseye...a 'witness mark line' is drawn across the unit so that IF one observes fragmenting of the straight line, there is a problem...went out with Bombardier just a few days ago on special inspections just for that. The witness mark is an inadaquate warning...trainsets can be on the rails for weeks or even years and pullapart between inspections. BTW: the four cars had their air compressors running continuously in the yard...turned off DC control power and found a leak which was stopped by closing a valve in the A car. A very good morning doing the kind of work that I like.
The afternoon: high temperature Redbird Hell doing Carbody on a married pair brought in late afternoon because the previous pair WAS SCRAPPED!!!!!! CI Peter
Can someone tell me why almost every day, around 1:15PM, there is about a 40 minute delay on all uptown number 2 trains? This could just be normal service, as I firmly believe the 2 is the worst subway line in the country.
And being the worst subway line in the country, It couldn't be more proper to throw in the worst cars in the world. Sorry, that was almost too easy.
I don't know about that. Although an R-142 dark as night did roll by out of service as I was sweating through my skin. BRING BACK THE REDBIRDS!
isn't the #5 supposed to be the worst line?
isn't the #5 supposed to be the worst line (according to what others have said about it)?
Don't mess with me!!! We turn the crapass flagged car leavings from #2 and turn en into respectable RTO units on the #5. More than half the CIs on the line are from the September 17th CI class. One of my guys who is not on the internet said to me, 'This is the BEST class.'
We bust our guts out everyday to inspect and repair these wretched trainsets to move working people to work and home everyday. Overcoming the trainsets wear/tear/milage/MDBF......#5 is the best in the Division A. We are the TA Rangers...we live for the one...we die for the one...and we don't die stupidly. We work as a true team on the line...the management does not realise how lucky they are and TWU100 has no capability of understanding how a bunch of mismatched fourtiesh year old newbies can unite TO MAKE TRAINS GO. Lock us up and throw the key away but be grateful that it is highly unlikely that the DeadBird you ride upon will TT in a tunnel. CI Peter
Uh no I meant the line itself, not the cars. I heard that the #5 was the worst line for a while (from many people including straphangers). The Dyre line is one reason that the #5 has bad publicity, but the White Plains Road line and the express service should help even it out.
Peter,
Calm down or you'll rupture a brake pipe.
True, MTA Mgmt doesn't appreciate you. The Union, well they only understand the expenses they can apply against the dues you pay in.
Just know this!!! SubTalkers will always appreciate the work you and your fellow CIs put in to keep the wheels rolling.
Allan
"" THE R- 142S THEY "R"--"A"- BREAKIN' DOWN ALREADY !!! ( now let us all sing this together kids )
"" THE R- 142S THEY "R"--"A"- BREAKIN' DOWN ALREADY !!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ....................................!!!......................LOL !!!
so... your point... all cars break down occasionally
I think the point was the emphasis was on the "already"...the redbirds have lasted many decades now with few problems, the R142s...not even half a decade.
I live near the 5 line, and comparing it to the 2 is like comparing a cure for cancer to the AIDS virus. I've never seen such a horrible line, and I know the reason.
The TA management is politically and financially prejudice. If you'll notice, lines that run through predominantly minority communities have much worse service. The 2, which starts at 241st Street and ends in Flatbush, has both terminals going through minority neighborhoods. The 6 line, which has trains every 12 seconds, starts at Pelham Bay and ends by City Hall, both rich neighborhoods.
It seems to me that service is better in richer neighborhoods. The stations are also better kept. The stations from 219th to 241st on the 2 are coming apart.
Starting next month, renovation work will start on the white plains branch.
LOL. Well, shut my mouth!
Money, money, money, money, money, money and MO money. Just as we strive to keep our city alive in TA, the poorer neighborhoods provide the backbone of labor that makes the city go everyday. Problem is that these poorer neighborhoods do not make enough revenue. So, the TA is labeled 'racist' and depriving these communities of new trainsets...they get Redbirds...is a racist action.
Balogna!!! I fix those trainsets...I ride those trainsets...and they would be completely empty on a rapid schedule. The ride is so very long...give these people a break on a token and you'll see a pickup in ridership. I have to leave by 5:30 to get to my yard before the 7:00 check in from 59 and Lex....by car I am clocked in nineteen minutes. This is a big city...and GOs limit mph to about 40. CI Peter
No NO NO! I do not mean the type of train. You and all the other CIs do a great job. I'm talking about the fact that during non-rush hours, the 2 runs on 40 minute headways, while the 4 and 6 run on 12 second headways.
Money, money, money.......#2 has No passengers on the platforms while #4 and #6 is almost always busy. When my car was held up by GM for repair...I rode my #2s. 32 stops from Penn Station...I was cringing...clocking the door 'dwell time.' Trainsets ran on a 21 minute sked....in the upper Bronx, T/Os skipped empty platforms. Maybe the pullapart was a good thing...run five car trainsets twice as often for the same energy consumption! CI Peter
Maybe the pullapart was a good thing...run five car trainsets twice as often for the same energy consumption!
You should take that idea to the top brass of the MTA! I like it!
---Brian
Hey...one of my supervisors introduced me to the Top Brass at Coney Island. Should I spoil the reputation I've worked so very hard to earn by churning up 'septic tank slurry?' LET THEM EAT CAKE or greasy dried up crust CI yard pizza. My former employers let me have it so many times....you start work too late, you spend your time talking to customers, twenty one years on the road by yourself and you'll never be able to work with anyone yadda yadda yadda.
Wrong!!! Today, supervisor tells us he's going on vacation...crew yells at me 'We have you to tell us what to do!' A state of shock and a really good feeling to be part of a team.
The conflict between union and TA in providing more service with short trains is OPTO. OPTO would provide extended energy saving service to poorer communities BUT the T/O gets the brunt of the problems. CI Peter
The scheduled weekday midday headways leaving the last Bronx timepoint toward Manhattan are as follows:
#2 (149th Street-Grand Concourse): 7.5 minutes (8 trips)
#4 (149th Street-Grand Concourse): 5 minutes (12 trips)
#6 (Third Avenue-138th Street): 4 minutes (15 trips)
As with rush hour service, #2 trains mix with #5 trains in the Bronx and Manhattan. #4 trains mix with #5 trains in Manhattan (and one stop in the Bronx), and #6 trains mix with NOTHING.
Nevertheless, I don't see a 40-minute headway scheduled anywhere in the subway system. While some strange things may be happening along White Plains Road to affect #2 service, it's certainly not scheduled for anywhere near a 40-minute headway. I've got two questions:
1. While these 40-minute headways are being observed along White Plains Road, are any #5 trains being seen?
2. Is this a real 40-minute headway, as confirmed by looking at a watch, or is this a perceived 40-minute headway, as devined by someone pacing a platform waiting for a train that doesn't come immediately while "someone else's" train happens to go by the other way?
David
Didn't they run shorter trains on the IND on the weekends in the 80's? I seem to remember short D trains.
I don't think so, but I'm not sure what that has to do with White Plains Road service in 2002...
David
#2 trains mix with #5 trains in the Bronx and Manhattan
Has there been a change in one of those routes? I didn't think they shared any track in Manhattan.
thats an error on his part. its in the bronx and brooklyn.
Sorry..."V Train" is correct. I meant Bronx/Brooklyn.
David
We're talking apples and oranges here. The #6 has more service than the #2 because it needs more service and because it is the only Lexington Avenue local service and the only Pelham service, whereas the #2 is one of two services going through its entire length (#5 in the Bronx and Brooklyn, #3 under normal circumstances/#1 right now in Manhattan and Brooklyn) and so has to share track space.
Although the #6 terminals are not in economically disadvantaged areas, the trains most certainly do go through areas that could hardly be considered ritzy (Morrisania, East Harlem...).
I'd love to see a subway line with 12-second headways. Unfortunately, that's just not possible if any degree of safety is to be observed. Currently, 21 trains (local + express) are scheduled to leave Third Avenue-138th Street weekdays between 8 and 9 AM, a headway of 3 minutes (rounded off). During the same time period, 9 #2 trains and 1 #3 train are scheduled to leave 149th Street-Grand Concourse, a 6-minute headway -- but there are ALSO 12 #5 trains scheduled to leave that station ON THE SAME TRACK during that period. The COMBINED service passing through 149th Street-Grand Concourse going toward Manhattan from 8-9 AM is 22 trains, which translates to roughly a 2.5-minute headway. In short, there's actually one MORE train on the White Plains Road Line than on the Pelham Line during the AM peak hour.
As for station conditions, several White Plains Road stations (Gun Hill Road, 238th Street, 233rd Stret, 225th Street, 219th Street, Burke Avenue, Allerton Avenue, Bronx Park East, Pelham Parkway, E. Tremont Avenue, Freeman Street, Jackson Avenue, Prospect Avenue, and Simpson Street) are about to be rehabilitated -- the Third Avenue-149th Street station was done a few years ago. On the Pelham Line, Pelham Bay Park was rehabilitated several years ago, but that's just about it for that line.
David
Technically the #5 doesn't even do #2s entire route not even during rush hours and middays (thank Pataki for that) unless the #2 were delayed for over 40 minutes, then maybe one #5 may decide to go to the end terminal.
That 8:59 Utica didn't show up (or it was that train that had E 180 Street on it going OOS) so WPR riders got screwed out of a train today.
I also heard that #3 trains were in the Bronx around 11:00, do you know if all yard bound #3s were running then, or did some of them wait until rush hour.
Oh, and the #6 has more express service as well, which wasn't brought up.
Do you know if the 238 Street signs will remain, or will they get rid of them?
They should just have 238 Street sings instead of Nereid Avenue, why have two names?
lol .!! I thought when you scrapped all of da' boyds on dat' line the #2 riders would B in R-142 HEAVEN !!!
eh ????
MacDonalds time...big bags of Big Macs and fries
hey hey,chill out,thats just an exageration,thats flat out impossible. the 2 runs every 8 mins all day long,if it takes longer then something happened and got it delayed. of course you can also thank the idiotic jackasses who hold the doors too,they delay the train too and dont give a rats ass either.
Thankyou V Train M20 bus. Those jerks bust the door mechs and cause TTs. They also leave their names behind scratched into glass, carved into seats and marked upon walls. CI peter
yeah i know.hell just today on the R train in brooklyn some dick,excuse my language,kept holding the doors open in the front car,i kept telling to let go and he just kept telling me to go sit down.should've taken my keys and break his fingers with em.that'll teach em a lesson.heck from now on,if i see someone hold the doors and refuse to let go,thats what im gonna do.
Not worth argueing about. Period. I can lock out all doors, BIE the trainset, call in to TA via radio or cellphone, whip out my ID and be a hero. Mutants hold doors and carve up interiors...it is their civilisation and what THEY WANT. Just find me one gutless maggot I can spray a can of Krylon face foward....it ain't art...it's felonious activity.
Some T/O's open the doors for people at some stations like 241 Street happened last week.
Yard bound trains usually don't have to worry about delays since they are most likely going to be useless once they get to the terminal. Like some of the (3) and <5> trains during rush hours (and some other times as well)
Some guy in Denver confronted a tagger and sprayed paint on his face. Guess who got busted....
How about this idea, run more #5 trains since it is supposed to be better, send some of them to 238/241.
One train today didn't even run to 238 (10:00am), it apparently stopped at E 180 and continued OOS.
cant do that if there arent enough trains,and even if there was,there wouldnt be enough crew members to work them.
Now we get into the union thing.......T/Os are going to whack my fanny with a shoe paddle. Half a trainset, five cars, One Person Train Operation lingo OPTO. Twice as many trains with the same amount of electrical energy drawn with half the crew. problem is that we don't live in a civil environment and cannot expect one train operator alone to maintain control over mutants. Yo T/Os: whack me with a shoe paddle and I'll pull the plug...you'll fight with CTAs over who has seniority sweeping a platform cuz your trainset will be 'dead in the water.' TA work is excellent work and we all work together as a team to keep our city alive each and everyday. CI peter
That's why I have to laugh at guys who are picking 8 or 8 1/2 hour jobs on the 2 line next pick, and think they won't make money. They'll make so much OT, it'll be like working an RDO.
I have not spent much time on the 2, but when I'm there, I always bring lunch. I NEVER start and finish when I'm supposed to. I
I wish I could answer your question, but I don't know exactly why the 2 is so bad. My only suggestion, is that it's due to it's length. It goes from Yonkers to Flatbush. It's just too long. I always find that I get very tired from working that line. However, when I work the 6, I still come home with enough energy to hit the gym. That's why the call the 2 "The Beast".
Yo LuchAAA...do you fill up on the MacDonalds 'MacBagget' at 241st? Give CI Murricane a page if you work Day hours from the car desk. I'll be on vacation the last week of August including Labor Day...ten days off from Hells Oven. CI Peter
Geez ... you guys are BRAVE ... I'd usually eat pizza for my runs. You don't want your food to be TOO fast. :)
Never bought MacBagget....when I searched for 'safe food' I noticed the crews eating pizza from 241st and Wakefield. Twenty one years on the road and you learn...what looks good on top in a diner doesn't look good from the vantage point of servicing the music/sound system in the basement. The heat is killing us...my supervisors see my eyes rolling...water and juice fill you up......almost ready for a big Vanilla Thick Shake and lots of fries. Genny Red and hot pretzels is Heavan...no chloesterol. CI peter
Yeah, "fast food" just don't cut it when you're locked in a cab for an hour and a half. :)
And if *I* were king of the BMT, there'd be Foster's Lager on tap on the console. Now you see why they have orders to shoot to maim if I come anywhere NEAR the subway. Heh.
I have eaten at that McDonald's on 241 a few times. I like the Pizzeria on 241. But I always bring lunch when I work WP. Those are the most erractic days.
My class buddy kept T/W RDOs so works the shop on weekends. He had a phenomenal Sunday...riding CI shotgun on a R142 test run. The T/O asked him, 'where would you like to go?' What he got was like the 'Last Redbird Excursion.' I know it's a long ride on the #2...safest food is what you bring as long as it remains chilled...at least the R142 pumps out a cold breeze upon your head.
The T/Os have a habit of bringing in TT trains during lunch...when they finally get their break...well, i did not know that MacDonalds had shopping bags. MacBagget. CI peter
Where is this from? The #2 always runs on time and "cool" in the late afternoons and evenings. Please fill me in on all of the #2 train havocs we have experienced.
Ride it DAILY and learn.
Peace,
ANDEE
Stef must be busy, so I'll be the "sub" and inform you all that 6891-6895 were newly-delivered at "The East" yesterday.
This the second set of "deferred" cars; at this rate they'll be up-to-production by Halloween!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Ahhh the East!!! A sacred place which I have yet to earn the honor of visiting and making sacrifice upon the 'Alter of Redbird.' Did get a promotion: keeper of the tripcock and shoebeam gauges AND posessor of the 'Holy Key' to the troubles box. The Lord does work in mysterious ways.
So, yesterday, supervisor asks me if I would like a little OT for the DS...sorry I did not have the time to record car numbers...the work entailed perusing the inspection records and removing last inspections to be found off a list of 243 married pairs. Some were missing, some had already been removed, one was listed 'Smithstonian,'most were listed 'in transit' and a few 'Delaware.' The work is hot like hell...ambient temperatures exceed 100 degrees. Grateful to be in an AC office after my shift.
The records are no big secret: date, inspection team, odometor, MDBF, wheel gauge readings. 180th Street crew #2 got a break today at 9AM...thin wheels. Party over. The BIG PARTY is September 17th..our probation is over and most of us are PERMANENT!!!!!!!!
Sept. 17th Engineers/techs do oil/brakes/TA work/speak English
A very timely delivery, Peter. Perhaps these 5 cars can be used to replace the unit that pulled apart this afternoon. Ironically almost the same spot where one pulled apart just 6 weeks ago.
Maybe TA should run five car trainsets!!! Better yet, run East 180ths Redbirds....they may look like crap BUT they run day after day after day. So what if AC capillary tubes leak R22 and you ride a 'hot car!' You do get to work on time versus stuck in a tunnel on a pull-apart. You know who I work for...'the best of the best.' CI Peter
Any information is helpful.
A while back on the R16 cars, there used to be a "MM" 6 Av desination sign.
Does anyone know on what this service was going to be used.
>>A while back on the R16 cars, there used to be a "MM" 6 Av desination sign.
Does anyone know on what this service was going to be used.<<
Just like the (KK) service that served the Broadway Brooklyn and Sixth Ave lines, the (MM) was supposed to be a Sixth Ave Line to Metropolitan Ave.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have one of those rollsigns. Unfortunately, it is in a closet that no longers opens due to thick carpeting in front of the door. Its probably the only thing of value in there.
Any information is helpful.
As of August 8, with anxious eyes watching from the second floor pool hall in Jackson Heights daily, there were still the same 100:
2096-2155 singles
1676-1715 units.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Widecab,
Are R-62A's still migrating over to the #7 or did that stop ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Stopped. FOR NOW.
Stay tuned, or better yet spend some recreational time at the billiard tables! You can feel them for yourself while watching your competition figure out an angle.
Guns, knives and belts stay at the door. Step slowly through the detector, please!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.om)
There is one Downtown project that I just don't get -- the Rector-Rector connection. Who is going to use it? For those on the 1/9 going on to Brooklyn, doesn't it duplicate the big walkway at the WTC. It just seems like an excuse to absorb money. Wouldn't it be better to:
-- Connect Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall Station, so those coming down the Lex on the #6 could get to the WTC without squeezing on the 4/5?
-- Accelerate the building of the Jay-Lawrence connection, so IND riders could get to the toe of Manhattan in the underutilized Montigue Tunnel trains?
Looking beyond Downtown, why not instead:
-- Connect 63rd and Lexington to 59th and Lexington, for all those Queens F rides who want the 4/5/6?
-- Rebuild and reopen the connection from Herald Square to Penn Station?
-- Connect the new north passageway at Grand Central to the network of tunnels are Rockefeller Center, so one could get from MetroNorth to west of 6th Avenue -- or from the F/V/B/D to Grand Central -- without going up to the street?
-- Connect the nearby C and G train stations to Atlantic Terminal?
I can see the point of putting West Street underground, and creating a passageway connecting the ferries, the PATH, the 1/9, and the N/R with the existing Broadway/Nassau/Fulton complex. Frankly, I think the problems with that complex are greatly exaggerated. All it needs is for the commercial areas along the stairways to the street to be rehabbed. And Rector-Rector? I just don't get it.
I get the feeling the powers that be are high-balling the costs of the WTC complex a bit, the same way the numbers were high-balled on the original cost of restoring the 1/9 tracks beneath the WTC complex (IIRC, the initial cost estimate of the project averaged out at about $2 million a foot). I would think the proposal combined with the reconstruction of the WTC site aboveground could be brought in for no more than $1 billion, leaving a nice chunk of change for other transit projects within the area (Second Ave. subway via Nassau Street being my preferred option).
The Rector/Rector link makes a certain sense for IRT local passengers south of 34th St. headed to/from Brooklyn. Whether or not it makes $70 million worth of sense (the price tag quoted in last weekend's N.Y. Times story) is another question. But again, this may be an example of the planners overestimating the costs to get the best deal possible from the FEMA funding.
The City Hall-Brooklyn Bridge transfer would probably be rejected because of the routing right in front of City Hall and beneath the park (hooking up with the BMT station would also be problimatical because of it's center island platform one level below ground, and a three track/two center island platform arrangement right below that -- you'd have to hook it up at the south end of the lower level or put the pedestian walkway three levels below ground)
Hoepfully, the Jay/Lawrence hookup will be fairly easy to travel through and will get some decent publicity from the MTA once it opens, and it might get a little more attention after the 1/9 connection to SF is restored.
The 63rd-59th connections and the reopening of the 32nd St. walkway between Penn Station and Herald Square both would help, and the second would be easy to accomplish, so long as the corridor is secure. It's location outside the fare control area under the old set-up made that a problem; if the MTA could somehow get it inside the fare control area, that would be a lot better, though they would have to do some construction at Herald Square to get underneath the current (former) passageway entrance near the PATH terminal.
There is one Downtown project that I just don't get -- the Rector-Rector connection. Who is going to use it? For those on the 1/9 going on to Brooklyn, doesn't it duplicate the big walkway at the WTC.
The big walkway at the WTC is planned to be outside fare control, so there will not be a free transfer between the 1/9 and N/R there. At least, that was what we were told at Listening to the City.
They could, with all that money, design the concourse to have sections that are both inside and outside fare control.
Why not put it all inside fare control? A passageway outside fare control is a minor amenity; it isn't of much use at all if the weather's nice. A passageway inside fare control is a big deal.
And if it is inside fare control, I agree that the Rector Connector is a waste.
I hear Notting Hill Gate on the Circle is a good photo op, are there any other must see parts of the system? I will get a chance to ride the Docklands Light Railway and visit the Transport Museum, too. And, naturally, I will bring back plenty of pictures and stuff to report.
Thanks, in advance, for your help.
The Docklands LR has railfan windows, so is good for photos taken from inside the trains. If you have time, try the Croydon Tramlink too -- a nice way to get to it is to take the District Line to Wimbledon, and on the way there you could get stop off and get nice pictures at Putney Bridge station (including District Line trains crossing the Thames on a bridge, not in a tunnel). On the Croydon trams you'd be able to get railfan window photos that include the back of the driver's head, if you wanted to. The footbridge at Farringdon could give you nice pictures of Underground trains and Thameslink trains side by side in what was the original 1863 terminus of the Metropolitan line. If you are into station architecture photos as well as trains, try the new stations on the Jubilee Line extension (especially Westminster -- though given its location by the Houses of Parliament, there might be security objections to photography) -- they are spectacularly different from everything else. The Hammersmith and City line between Hammersmith and Paddington can get you pictures that look like NY elevated stations -at Latimer Road or Ladbroke Grove, say. Between Acton Town and Hammersmith or between Finchley Road and Wembley Park you could get pictures of little (deep tube) trains and big (subsurface) trains side by side.
I'll stop there and see what the the other British subtalkers have to offer.
Fytton.
(including District Line trains crossing the Thames on a bridge, not in a tunnel).
IIRC, there are only two places in London where you can get a tube train over the Thames - both on the District Line - the first at Putney Bridge, the second between Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens (picturesque in itself). The Richmond Branch is also a good way of connecting onto the NLL, the scenic route to Canning Town on the DLR.
The DLR is a must. I'll leave it at that.
The Hammersmith and City line between Hammersmith and Paddington can get you pictures that look like NY elevated stations
Plus lovely views from the train over Television Centre and Shepherds Bush Bus Garage - it's got the authentic run-down feel to it! It's one of my favourite lines - pity there aren't more elevated sections in London.
I believe the remains of the disused branches are visible at Mill Hill East and at Highgate, but it's been yonks since I've been that far North on the Northern Line.
between Finchley Road and Wembley Park you could get pictures of little (deep tube) trains and big (subsurface) trains side by side.
Plus for most of that there's the main line out of Marylebone alongside. Theoretically, it should be possible to get a snap of A stock on the Met, whatever they now have on the Jubilee Line, and a Class 168 Clubman in the same shot.
If you go to Rayners Lane (surface station)on the Picadilly and Metropolitan lines you can get a good shot of tube guage stock on the Pic running next to surface height stock on the Met.
Remember the no-flash rule when taking photos at underground stations and have a ride on the Waterloo and City Line which is unique in having no physical connection to the rest of the tube system.
Enjoy London,if you need any further help then just post questions here
Rob
I had the pleasure of visiting London late in 2000. The Transport Museum is very much worth the visit. It's fascinating and very nicely laid out.
The tube is a wonderful mixture of old and new. Do be sure to explore it as much as you can!
Enjoy your trip!
Perhaps a field trip is in order here,
with some of us English subtalkers meeting up with you for a days trip,rounded off by a bottle of snapple and fish & chips followed by a fast run on the Metropolitan main line.
Mr Billis and others ,what do you say Gents?
Rob :^)
I'd be happy to join in, but it depends when WMATAGMOAGH is coming. I'm off to the USA next Monday (19 August) for two weeks -- no, not to NYC, to Colorado, hopefully (wildfires permitting, that is) to fulfil a long-held ambition to ride the Durango & Silverton and the Cumbres & Toltec. I'll be back in the UK 1 September, so any date after that is good.
Fytton.
Perhaps a field trip is in order here
Sounds good to me!
rounded off by a bottle of snapple and fish & chips followed by a fast run on the Metropolitan main line.
Yeeha! Fast Amersham! And that would mean we'd end up in the right part of London for me.
Two big must dos - the Hammersmith & City out through Shepherd's Bush to Hammersmith and at least a bit of the DLR!
Great idea. Especially if you get the food and Snapple:)
Simon
Swindon UK
When are you coming over ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Can't make a field trip, sorry. I am traveling with a group and my railfanning will be limited to traveling to where we agree to go and the occasional time I can get away. Simply too hard to agree on a place and time to meet.
I should have also asked this in my original post:
Any neighborhoods I should stay away from (answer by giving the line and the stations, please)?
Also, can one crossover at many stations to travel in the opposite direction without paying another fare?
Thanks again!
Each of us will have our on ideas on where is unsafe. All I will say is that daytime all areas are perfectly OK, but like all cities, late at night, by yourself in a strange location is not a good idea.
Whateever you do get a One Day Travelcard for the zones you intend to visit (see map on ticket machine or on the wall), and just ride all day. Buses, main line rail, Underground, are all there for you to enjoy. The six zone offers the best ever value for the railfan. I know of no station where you have the leave the fare control.
Pity we wont get to meet you. Perhaps next time.
Simon
Swindon UK
Don't worry. I will still get plenty of time to explore and check out your transit system and plenty of pictures of it, too (provided I am not given too hard a time, I am a law abiding person).
Any neighborhoods I should stay away from
Not in particular. I wouldn't wander around in the middle of the night between King's X and Caledonian Rd, but I doubt you'd intend on doing that anyway. Most places you can get to by tube are perfectly fine. I believe there are some pretty rough areas in East London, but I'm not altogether certain where they are. I don't know of anywhere particularly bad in West London, although White City can get creepy at night.
Also, can one crossover at many stations to travel in the opposite direction without paying another fare?
Usually (if not always). This is always the case at interchange stations (those marked with a white circle on the map), as, of course, both platforms have access to the platforms of another line. Most stations have some sort of mezzanine, especially on the deep tube lines, so crossing over is no problem. There may be exceptions, but I can't think of any. (Mill Hill East is a sort of exception as it only has one platform).
Two warnings:
Hammersmith warning - some maps print the Hammersmith & City Line station as being connected to the District / Piccadilly Line station - it isn't - it's through a shopping mall, across Hammersmith Broadway and into a completely different station - it's practically the other side of Hammersmith.
Covent Garden warning - it's only 280 yds from Leicester Square, it's one of the busiest stations on the tube, and the only exits are by lift (elevator) or a very long spiral staircase - consequently it usually takes longer to get out of the station than it does to walk from Leicester Square.
[On the London Underground] "Also, can one crossover at many stations to travel in the opposite direction without paying another fare?"
You nearly always can. At stations that are actually underground, where there are several stairways from the street they all lead into one subsurface concourse with the ticket machines and fare control, and from inside the one fare control you can reach the platforms in both directions. Exceptions: maybe some above-ground (elevated) stations in the suburbs (East Acton comes to mind as a possibility) where there are separate stairs up at each side of a road underbridge. There is only one booking hall but there may be separate fare controls on the two staircases. This wouldn't matter if you had a One-Day Travelcard (equivalent of a NYCT Funpass) because the barrier won't swallow it anyway, and you could go back in again at the other side. It would matter if you had a single-journey ticket, because the outbound barrier (remember LU swipes tickets both in and out) would swallow your ticket. (One-Day Travelcards are valid on buses too, but there's no swiping on buses -- you just show your ticket to the driver, since LU tickets are human-readable as well as computer-readable.)
Incidentally, at Kings Cross St Pancras there are two separate fare controls, one for the deep tubes and one for the subsurface lines. But in that case the outbound barriers always return your ticket, so you can get back in though the other fare control without paying again.
Beware also: Edgware Road subsurface lines station is completely separate from Edgware Road Bakerloo; and Shepherds Bush Central Line is completely separate from Shepherds Bush Hammersmith and City Line.
Shame we can't arrange a subtalkers trip when you are here -- it sounded as if it might be fun. Enjoy London anyway.
Fytton.
you just show your ticket to the driver
Eugh! Those horrible one man operation buses! It's not fair - they have doors (so no running leaps for the bus as it's pulling away) and they're slow as the driver has to do the conductor's job too. Give me a Routemaster any day!
Incidentally, at Kings Cross St Pancras there are two separate fare controls, one for the deep tubes and one for the subsurface lines.
I think that has something to do with the subsurface lines station originally being located at King's X Thameslink, not King's X proper. When they moved the station it must have buggered up fare control (well, it was even worse beforehand).
Edgware Road subsurface lines station is completely separate from Edgware Road Bakerloo
It's remarkable how many people make the dumb mistake of not realising this, especially with interchange possible at Baker St and Paddington (if you like a long walk). Interestingly, the quicker way from Baker St to Paddington is on the Bakerloo Line, despite the extra stop at Marylebone (which conveniently has a pub, a coffee bar and a Cornish pasty stand in the station - a useful thing to know at lunchtime - it's also a gorgeous station).
Shepherds Bush Central Line is completely separate from Shepherds Bush Hammersmith and City Line.
The Central Line station is however within walking distance of both Shepherd's Bush and Goldhawk Rd on the H&C - with a one day travelcard, it's scarcely worse than Hammersmith.
We could still have a British subtalkers trip as Rob suggested. What do you think. Perhaps meet in London on a Saturday and do some railfanning. Fish and chips for lunch or even route out a "Subway sandwich bar" or a Sbarro. There is one at Euston which gives the Pizzas that special track dust taste just like you get at Penn Station.
Come on boys! Lets sort out a date.
Simon
Swindon UK
Just an idea. We could do a trip to Quainton road for lunch in the old subway car, or even a ride out to the Isle of Wight.
Simon
Swindon UK
Well let me set the ball rolling,
.
Saturday 07th September 2002,
.
12 Lines travelling on at least one of each stock type
1)Met-A60 8 car
2)District-D78
3)Circle-C69/77 Kangaroo lerch lerch!
4)Ham & City-C69/77
5)East London-A60 4car
6)Northern 1995
7)Jubilee 1996
8)Central 1992
9)Bakerloo 1972
10)Victoria 1967/72
11)Waterloo & City 1992
12)Piccadilly 1973
.
If you can make it,reply to this and we will arrange a meeting point!
Rob
I really like this idea. I'd like to meet you all in person. I live in Bedford, so London is nice and easy (and cheap, on Saturdays) on Thameslink. Let's try to find a date that suits.
Fytton Rowland.
I like the idea too! I'm in Birmingham, so it's cheap on the Chiltern Line :D It looks like I'm free Saturdays 24th August and 14th September - if it's one of those, count me in!
14th September sounds good to me. Fyton and Rob are you in ? Anyone else is welcome to join. Max are you there ?
Now where shall we go ?
Met, East London, ideas please.
Simon
Swindon UK
14th it is then. Engineering work between Baker Street and Aldgate affecting circle/Ham City/Met may slow us all down but
why not try and ride each type of stock once on each of the 12 lines!
Rob
Engineering work between Baker Street and Aldgate affecting circle/Ham City/Met
Is there a "Circle Line" doing Baker St - Pad - Victoria - Tower Hill, or is the line 100% suspended (necessitating Earls Court...)?
part running Edgware Road-Tower Hill
Rob
Excellent.
Main concourse at Euston by the Underground entrance. Say 9am.
Simon
Swindon UK
From WTOPnews.com, nothing at washingtonpost.com or Metro's site
Pentagon Metro Station Reopened
Checked for Hazardous Material
Metro reports the Pentagon station has reopened. Arlington and Alexandria hazmat crews were called to the above ground station near the Pentagon construction site after soil samples set off a hazmat sensor. Metro spokeswoman Lisa Farb says it was deemed safe before reopening the area. While the tests were being conducted, Metro says trains were NOT stopping at the Metro station, but were running through. No buses were allowed into the above ground station. Parts of the Pentagon parking lot were also closed, but apparently no major roads were blocked.
I will post more in the morning.
In case you missed it, as yours truly happened to, the NEW YORK OBSERVER of July 29th, 2002, had a page 1 banner "M.T.A. IS BARRING COMMUTER TRAINS FROM BIG NEW STOP". The article continues in considerable depth on page 12 of the same issue. Knowing my fellow SubTalkers, this presentation was likely to have been analyzed in some detail on SubTalk at the time. However, if you happened to miss it too, going back to it would be a very good use of your time in my opinion. Political perspectives shaped and caused our transit systems and options. Reading this article, which offers an interesting thesis, seems to sharpen a raifan's perspective of what might transpire in the Big Apple.
The Observer ignores the impact of the proposal to seize subway capacity on Brooklyn.
For a real proposal, look to the RPA Metrolink, which has a new tunnel from Atlantic Avenue as part of the Second Avenue line, with a spur off to Grand Central as well. In another RPA proposal, that "super express" train is extended to Secaucus Transfer. One line, built in association with (rather than in funding competition with) the Second Avenue Subway could bring NJT riders to Grand Central, MetroNorth riders to Lower Manhattan, and LIRR riders to Lower Manhattan, all with one easy (in many cases cross-platform) transfer.
Today at Pacific Street, on my way to Bay Parkway (M), I rode down to 36th Street on the N train, whose 10-car train was a 10-car consist of former-North Division R-40Ms. Here are the numbers of the consist:
(in exact order, south motor to north motor) 4453/52, 4462/63, 4459/58, 4450/51, 4454/55
Guess they are getting comfy and snug in their new homes!! :-)
Due to some traffic backup somewhere, my nb 1 train this evening skipped 191 St (and other stop previous to that). The good T/O announced this beforehand, so instead of getting off at 168 St and waiting for ever for the next train in that hot station, I thought I'd ride up to Dyckman, crossunder, and enjoy the warm breeze of the outdoors (plus I trust the sb service a lot more than the nb service). Short story long, I decided to try to grab a photo of my sb 1 train pulling in to Dyckman. And with the sun in a great location, I think the photo came out pretty cool. Just thought I'd share this common day photo with you. Nothing particularly special about it. Have a good night. BTW, I'm told a Redbird #2 train was about three trains behind my nb #1 that I took to Dyckman :(
--Brian
good fresh lemonade
Nice photo. It looks like that train is about to run you down!
-- David
Chicago, IL
That is a great spot isn't it? Sometimes felt like I was going to go up onto the platform when I worked there.
I keep getting a network login dialog for http://www.hillel.cornell.edu when this message is displayed.
Sorry. Try here:
Nice... Have you done any others?
Have I ever! Each time I go out on the town I take almost 150 digital photos. I'm currently going through my collection from the past two years and am renaming and organizing them by car class. Then I will shrink them down to around 100k each and then also make thumbnails. Finally, when I get back to school in a week or so, I will upload everything to my website, www.brianweinberg.com/trains. The photos look better in the their full, unshrunken size, so if you ever want me to post the full size version of any photo, I will do it. BTW, the photo I posted in this thread is cropped, but still at the full 3.2 Megapixel resolution.
---Brian
Wow, how generous. I don't want to tire you out, though with school coming up. ;P
Just one more question. What kind of digital camera do you use?
My current camera is a Toshiba PDR-M71. I got that this June. Prior to June I was using a Fuji Finepix 1300, and previous to that I was using a Kodak DC240. It is important to get a digital camera with manual controls for shutter speed and ISO speed. My previous cameras didn't have this and most of my action subway photos came out blurry.
Don't worry, I plan on having the bulk of the work for the website done before school starts. I just need to be at school to take advantage of our DSL's whopping 768k/sec rated max upload speeds.
Playing chicken with an R62 again? You wouldn't do that with an R44 or R46, would you? :)
I'm pretty fast. I can outsprint an R-62A in the 10 yard dash. When they were delivered new, no, I wouldn't play chicken with an R-44 or R-46 because, as we all know, they were designed for 70mph service under Second Av. It's all in the lightweight trucks. Of course both of those classes are now chunky slowpokes so I'm not afraid of them.
1. Nice shot!!
2. Every time I click on ANY post from BMdoobieW I'm getting that log-in box from hillell/Cornell.
3. What the heck is that on top of that apartment building? An antenna to bring in Radio Uranus???
1. Thanks!!
2. I know, I know. Something must have changed with my server up there. It has worked fine for about three years. I will work on it. Luckily I have my other website, www.brianweinberg.com. So all photos I've posted since this morning will be on the site that works. Unfortunatly the only photo I've posted since this morning is the one with the antenna to bring in Radio Uranus. If you really want to see one of my older photos, send me a link to the post containing it and I'll repost the photo.
3. Either an antenna, or one of those afterburner flame deflector shields off an old aircraft carrier.
---Brian
3. Either an antenna, or one of those afterburner flame deflector shields off an old aircraft carrier.
Are we talking about the same thing? I thought it's a fence designed to stop people from one apartment block accessing the other apartment block by jumping between the roofs.
AEM7
I dunno. Your answer seems kinda far fetched.
Oh...okay. I forgot people do that sort of thing in NYC! :-)
Wanted to know when C/R boards first started. Were they around from the beginning? Did they have nothing and C/R's opened up blind trusting the T/O? Did they use other things before what we use today? I do realize that this would be relevant to car classes after the use of gate cars. Thanks.
Conductor boards weren't always used. When the subway first opened, all train doors were manually operated. While time-consuming, the chances of opening a door on the wrong side were virtually nil. In addition, some of the original express stations (Brooklyn Bridge, Union Square, and 96th St.) had additional side platforms.
When remote controlled doors were introduced, their controls were mounted on the outside except on BMT standards. I'm pretty sure a conductor would have realized pretty quickly if he assumed the position on the wrong side.
IMHO it all boils down to common sense. That and knowing the line you're assigned to. Which stations are local and which are express. Which ones have side platforms and which ones have island platforms. Used vs unused platforms (59th St.-Columbus Circle, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, Chambers St., etc.). That sort of thing
The big issue isn't the side; it's whether any cars are dangling off the end of the platform. If the board is properly positioned, the C/R knows before he opens the doors that all cars have platformed.
10-4. The bottom line is, conductor boards have not been around that long, relatively speaking. I would say ten years, tops. I stand corrected in advance if I'm wrong.
10-4?
It's definitely been more than ten years. You may be thinking of the pointing ritual, which is indeed a recent innovation. The boards themselves have been around a lot longer. How else is a C/R in the middle of a 600-foot train supposed to know that all 600 feet are in the station?
Sorry. That's what I was thinking of, the pointing ritual.
And what is the pointing ritual? (I'm almost afraid to ask.)
Mvh Tim
TimK wrote:
And what is the pointing ritual? (I'm almost afraid to ask.)
This is a FAQ (is it in the FAQ?) It has the same answer to the question, "why does the conductor always seem to wave at me?"
The conductor must (it's a rule, and it's enforced) point at the zebra board before opening up.
This foolishness started about five (give or take) years ago after a rash of wrong-sided and dangling openings. As the story goes, a Transit suit observed employees of Japanese transit systems saluting signals, and decided to import the behavior.
Mark
And like most "imported behaviors" from JapanRail, they didn't import the ENTIRE behavior. No Samurai swords were issued for Harakiri in the even of failure to point, or to deal with unruly "customers." :)
I remember riding up fron on Japanese trains in the '60s, and seeing the motorman pointing and shouting every time we left a station. It never occured to me that he was 'saluting the signals'
He would point forward, (with his white gloved hand) and hollar something that sounded like 'motomachie' I thought he was praying for a safe trip or something.
Elias
Heh. He WAS ... after all, you also pray to the fish before digging in that you don't die. But yes, JR requires every signal to be called out, pointed to and saluted. The procedure also applies to conductors in a fashion similar to NYC as well as any employee crossing the tracks must turn both ways, shout, then cross. Wonder how many of them get HIT in the middle of the lengthy rituals? :)
But yes, JR requires every signal to be called out, pointed to and saluted.
Actually, I usually rode on the private line that ran parallel from Youkouska to Yokohama and Tokyo. I'd ride to Yokohama and get the 'subway' from there. It was the Blue Line that I rode on, you could tell that it was the Blue Line, because all of the cars were blue. There was also an orange line a yellow line and a green line, each with its own proper car colour. I bought some blue ones for my model railroad, but they never ran well.
Elias
I have yellows, greens and funky turquoise 103's running on my DESK (N guage) since they were the only things I could find years ago *in* N guage that looked even remotely like "subway cars" ... got tired of pretending that RDC's were subway cars on my little run here on the desk. Even went so far as to create a *BVE ROUTE* of my little desktop railroad, but never had time to finish it. In the BVE route of my model subway line, there are R9's, R10's, redbirds, 32's and 68's. I was able to do on the computer what I couldn't buy in N gauge.
Our illustrious "SEVEN" asked for and got a copy of the "Selkirk route" from me a few months ago. Hasn't had anything done to it since but I love to run it with something that doesn't look Japan Rail (and of course, on the computer I can actually FIT in the cab. Heh.
Where I'm going though is that at least in N gauge, KATO 103 JR cars run *VERY* nicely, but you've GOT to keep them clean, and you've got to keep the gears greased. But they're NICE when they run and smooth ... at least in N guage ... now the Bachmann and Concor stuff CHEWS. But the Katos are great.
Signal san! Hai! Bonzai! Arrigato. :)
Ummm ... the "jail bars" were old and crusty when *I* was a conductor in the 70's, definitely had more than 10 years' worth of crud THEN. Although we didn't have to circle our "power finger" at them out da window (would have had to do it between cars and risk falling in da hole) when we came to a stop, we'd better stop in FRONT of da jail bars or step down and give da big long buzz up front.
But when we operated OUTSIDE the cars, we could see both ends (standing high ABOVE the folks on the platform, you could see EVERYTHING unlike today where you stick your head out the window and hope to be able to see a car or two in either direction at best) and could tell even without the boards if we was in or out.
So I'd guess that the jailbars were there from at least the 1950's if not way earlier. And if some wiseacre tore them down, we'd just have to look up and down the platform and make sure we saw the ends of the front and the back and open up anyway without having to look for supervision playing games. Sometimes folks just STOLE the things and you didn't have to hold up the railroad if they weren't there. At least the angle irons were still hanging from the ceiling where they USED to be. :)
That's what you get for riding at the railfan window.:) I never waited for a train in the middle of a station; consequently I never saw any conductor boards. Once again, I stand corrected.
Actually, aren't you SITTING corrected? Neener-neener. :)
From my own perspective, one of the things I *really* enjoy about being a "guest" here is taking in all that's accepted as normal these days among the "sworn in and sworn at for a biweekly nut" and chuckling over all the unnecessary BS that's thrown on TOP of the job from hell many perform for the public. Then again, most folks on the railroad today don't have to beat the "carp" out of their trains today to make the indication fairy smile so maybe it's a wash. But still.
If *I* was demanded to wave my finger, it wouldn't be the regulation finger and I don't think I'd need to be ON my train to wave it at the appropriate object. Seems the TA treats its "so-called professionals" like CHILDREN and that's one of the few things that would HONK ME OFF. :)
I can just see you assuming the position on a prewar D train, saluting the board, and yelling "neener-neener.":) Or saying that over the PA on a train of R-32s. Too bad I never rode on a train you were conducting or operating. OTOH it's quite possible I may have ridden on a train piloted by Big Ed at some time.
Speaking of prewar D trains, there's a particular melody which I immediately associate with them. It's a Lithuanian folk dance played on folk instruments. I even have visions of the conductor opening and closing the doors. To me, the R-1/9s ARE the D train, just as the R-10s ARE the A train.
I didn't get too many with PA's (and they made sure I DIDN'T heh) and unfortunately I dropped my megaphone on the tracks on one of my first runs as a conductor, never to be seen again. Since I come up short on Lithuanian folk dances, I'll have to take your word on the sounds though. :)
It's funny ... The arnines were EVERYTHING IND, but I more associate them with the CC and in particular, the E. The D line in the late 60's and early 70's was very largely made up of 32's and the Arnines only came on board the D for rush hours usually. I was lucky in getting them because of the split shift I worked - the guys told me that I'd be an old man before I could pick over to the E train, and that if I didn't keep my nose clean, I'd end up on the QJ or the M. Heh.
I didn't get too many with PA's (and they made sure I DIDN'T heh)
What was it exactly that made them object to your announcements so much?
Well, if you could imagine John Cleese turned loose on a public address system in a city conveyance where everything was taken oh so seriously ... well ... although I was not anywhere near as crude as some of the London tube announcements, I did believe in having fun with announcements. Such things as "Bedford Park Boulevard, next stop where the local will close up and pull out as soon as we stop." Things of that order. What would REALLY seemingly put management over the top was when I'd announce the TIME and throw in a weather forecast along with the jokes.
We were issued a little book of "sayings of the Chairman" which we were supposed to read solely as written. We also got a set of stupid little flash cards and a map of the route. "Yo! Let go of the door in car three" was strictly prohibited. :)
You'd've done better in London!!! I could imagine you as the conductor on a Fast Amersham train!
I got better. :)
Too bad you never said neener-neener. THAT would have been a knee slapper.:)
I would have remembered hearing any sort of off-the-wall announcement.
The folk dance analogy has to do with hearing a melody on folk instruments. We were rehearsing for a school play one Saturday and while waiting for a dance tape to be cued up, the tape got wound back a bit too far. I heard that melody on folk instruments and the R-1/9s came to mind. One thing led to another and the D became associated with that music. You could say that a Lithuanian folk dance played on folk instruments is analagous to the R-1/9s on the IND to me.
Yeah, by the late 60s the D was almost all R-32s. Once in a great while we'd get a prewar D train on a Saturday afternoon - without headlights to boot. The last time I ever rode on an oldtimer D included a joyride up CPW. What a blast! Silhouetted I-beams, nothing but tunnel lights for illumination, bull and pinion gears wailing away.
You'll have to eleborate on that megaphone. I never saw any conductor use one.
I was *TEASING* about the megaphone. Although I understand that BMT platform conductors were once issued them. But if you know the "assume the position," then you should have immediately been visually clued as to WHERE would a conductor stick a megaphone when climbing up and down. "Oh, behave ..." :)
O-K....
I first became aware of conductor boards, when they were installed on the Queens Blvd line. This was done when the 11th St connector was completed in 1955. I saw additional conductor boards on my BMT travels at that time. I do not recall seeing them on the IRT or IND.
The practice had been to use two conductors for long trains during rush hours. This practice was eliminated around 1958. I'd assume the boards were installed on all the divisions around that time.
My memory could be wrong, but I rather agree with Stephen about 1955 on Queens Blvd. Growing up on Marble Hill in the 1940's, my chief recollection of door controls was that our ten-car Broadway-7th Avenue expresses ordinarily had a man between the 1st and 2nd car and other between the 9th and 10th. This practice allowed for "armstrong" vestibule doors on front and rear cars, with center doors pneumatic. The front vestibule was used by the motorman. The vestibule at the rear of the train was more likely mechanical (powered only by a conductor's strength) and it was not used because there was no conductor there. An bad platform stop would be seen quickly by the conductor, and he would be in the position to correct the problem by not opening the dangerous door. Also, by positioning conductors 1-2 and 9-10, a few short station platforms could be accomodated, as I believe Hoyt on Bwy-7th Avenue trains, where the last car did not open. The Queens Blvd explanation seems right to me because the use of Standards and R1-9's on the same local tracks could create confusion.
While looking at the section of this site regarding the retired fleet of rolling stock, I was sorry to note that the section for the Manhattan Elevated Division contained 0 photos. What happened? Have the Els disappeared forever?
Tom
What about that High Line? Isn't that technicnally an El, too?
What about that High Line? Isn't that technicnally an El, too?
If you stretch the definition... certainly it wasn't for mass transit... I only remember it carrying freight, not sure if it ever carried passengers or not.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Walked passed the High Line yesterday afternoon up to 34th Street across Javits Center.
That would be a sweet trip in the afternoons and a site too. Emerging and turning south along the Hundon and watch the sunset; like stepping out and back into the city (yet you haven't truely left yet)
Even if it was tore down and rebiult, it has a lot of potential if used right
Hello Tom -
yeah - I just check the site -states "0" images for Manhattan els --some prints come upwhenyou scroll down but many I get a "Cant find the item" screen when I click on ---Probably when Dave was updating captions he could have slipped up on a keystroke or two in programming,,,or most likely he is still reorganizing the section...best to contact Dave P
Heres a Manhattan El model photo for you:
(And I KNOW that YOU know the subject content !!)
Regards - Old Joe
The Manhattan el photos are all available in the section under "IRT" that has a page for each el.
H Dave -- YOU better check your site --
When I go to where you stated to go, I get to "Retired Fleets (under IRT section)
I see printed " O " images listed (text written) next to Manhattan Els
When I click on and get the picture thumbs, 1-15 show on the page come up fine via click enlarge.
When I click on to any of the following 2 Photo group blocks ending with # 52 --I get YOUR SERVER printed page notice headed for "nycsubway.org" stating ---
"ERROR - there does not appear to be any items in that file" (or something similar to that wording)
I wonder if OLD TOM and others are getting, like me, the same notice when trying to access the 2nd and 3rd "block" of photo thumbs. Seems like something is wrong there Dave, still.
regards - Joe !!
Sounds to me like half your pages are coming from your browser cache and half are new.
Just checked the areas mentioned, everything appeared properly and loaded properly.
For all who have the problems mentioned, make sure your browser's cache is emptied after a web session. For the IE folks, the cache is in Windows/Temporary Internet Files. Be sure to empty all files from all the subfolders. For the Netscape users, the cache is in the folder called Cache under the user folder. Delete all files except fat.db.
If you clean out the cache, every web session will load everything from the servers.
For the Netscape users, the cache is in the folder called Cache under the user folder. Delete all files except fat.db.
You can also go to the preferences section and empty the cache from there... works like a charm and a lot faster too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I keep Norton File Manager around to do stuff like cache cleaning. Simply tag the first file (right click mouse) and then ctrl-t to tag everything else. Then ctrl-d to delete all (confirm). Bye-bye.
The latest version of Netscape is hiding the Cache files a lot deeper than before, and not even in the Netscape folder. It's under:
C;\\Windows\Application Data\Mozilla\Profiles\Default\(user specific id).slt\Cache
Makes it almost manditory to clear the Cache by way of the prefrences tab...
Glad you figured it out... I wasn't about to take the time :-) I'm running 6.2 under a couple of different versions of Mac OS here, it's definitely interesting... but unlike Internet Destroyer it works.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or you could buy our stuff. One press and anything you want goes byebye. That's what I actually do for a living when not beating up on politicos and busting chops. :)
(sorry for the ad, but this is the sorta stuff I do when not drooling over trains)
If you clean out the cache, every web session will load everything from the servers.
It will also wipe out all of the pretty purple 'visited links', and then you will have to read them all over again.
Instead Click on "Tools" > "Internet Options"
Under "Temporary Internet Files" Click on Settings
And Select "Check for new versions every time yu visit a page"
This forces the program to ignore the cashe unless it sees that the page has not in fact changed, in which case it will load from the cashe becaue it is faster andit already had the graphics.
Elias
It will also wipe out all of the pretty purple 'visited links', and then you will have to read them all over again.
Not in Netscape... that list is maintained in the history file. Can't speak for IE since I don't use it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Above question and if Pirmann is reading, did he name these boards after that?
They're prety informative, but they're not distributed enough as maps are.
Either that, or the boards are named after the informative messages posted by the MTA in the advertising areas of buses and subways. Those messges are also called BusTalk and SubTalk respectivly.
---Brian
I read them although they often just repeat the same safety info in a different context, depending on the season. I wonder how many other people read them...
Did anyone take the 1/2/3 this morning around 8am? I heard announcements in a couple stations, incl 79 St, that said something about the express tracks but I couldn't understand the whole message. Maybe it was just announcing an upcoming G.O. But the reason I thought something was up was that at 42 St I saw a 3 train on the local tracks. I know, that's not earth shattering, but I figured I'd ask...
---Brian
1010 WINS anounced, around 8am, that "3" service was suspended between 148th & 14th Streets. Not sure why, tho.
Thanks. That must have been it.
I was on the 8th car (car # 7658) of the 8:50AM out of Brooklyn Bridge this morning, and low and behold, when we got to Canal Street, the computer announced the correct transfers, including the Q and W trains. The announcement was done by a female voice rather than the male voice we are all so accustomed to. At 14th street, it also announced the Q and W. Another slight change was in the inside LCD signs, which used to say NEXT STOP such and such. Now it says THE NEXT STOP IS such and such. Nice to see after 13 months that the changes have finally been incorporated. I don't know if it properly announces at 59th street since I got off at 33rd street, nor if it announces properly at Bleeker street since I rode it uptown.
I also noticed a small difference as I rode on a R142a yesterday. I got on Canal, took it to Brooklyn Bridge. It said "This is the last stop on this train" (<--New) softly before doors opened, and then it said: "This is the last stop on this train, everyone please leave the train, thank yUUUUor riding with MTA NYC Transit."
OK that's so weird...where the U's are it's supposed to be thank YOU for.
I noticed some of these changes too, but not on that-high-numbered Kawasakis. The high-numbered Bombardiers that is. Last Saturday I boarded a southbound #5 at Union Sq, lead motor 69xx. The interior signs did the same thing. But the voice...awful! More robotic than anything else.
6951-6960 on the (5) line is the set you are referring to...I rode that train like twice in a week
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"TRANSFER...is available...(BING)"
I've been on the new 5 trains which do accurately announce the stops. This was the first time I ever saw it on the 6
I should add that the strip maps were not updated, just the announcing. Strip maps still show the pre manhattan bridge flip service
It's strange that it takes less time to change roll signs, station signage than a COMPUTER. 2 trains still say 7th Ave Express even with normal service they wouldn't be at night.
Looks like whoever specified the system did a really poor job.
Arti
Or maybe it's the fact that the MTA is lazy is changing accordingly, just a guess.
"It's strange that it takes less time to change roll signs, station signage than a COMPUTER."
They probably had to wait for a new software release that allows easier updating of messages.
New software releases have to be extensively tested. You don't want the train to go into BIE because of a newly introduced software bug. Testing takes time and money, so new releases are only done from time to time (say every 6 months or year).
This annoyance was probably just one of many fixed in the new release (us passengers may not see other sw problems).
I doubt that the same computer running announcements and signage does anything else. And still if they had to rewrite the software, the initial spec was way substandard.
Arti
About two weeks ago, a discussion was started regarding the flexibility of the r142. The opinion was put out there that the r142 series is inflexible in their design, as the automatic routing system cannot be up updated, or it cannot be updates without a major overhaul.
Needless to say, I was very skeptical to this claim.
I didn't know who was responsiblel whether it was the fault of the manufacturer, or the failure of the MTA to properly specify a system. But considering the need for flexibility in the system, I was still doubtful of either of these cases.
Well, I guess we now have the answer. The cars did not have to go back to the plant. I don't know how long it took, or what was involved, but the automatic announcement for r142 series can can be updated as we have now seen.
MATT-2AV
Who said anything about a major overhaul? I said that a decently designed automated system would take 15 minutes to update. It took over a year. That's off by a factor of 37,000. For the past year, countless passengers have been misled by the announcements on R-142's and 142A's. They haven't been misled by the announcements on Redbirds or on R-62A's, because the announcements on those trains can be updated on the fly (because, of course, they're made on the fly).
Perhaps the system has been made flexible. Perhaps the announcements can be updated in 15 minutes now. I doubt it but I can't say for sure. Will someone be listening to the announcements at Union Square on September 7 and 8? (I won't be able to.) On September 7 they should include the 4, 5, L, N, Q, and R; on September 8 they should include the 4, 5, L, Q, R, and W. (The N is being cut back to Pacific and the W is being extended to Astoria as a night/weekend local, in case you hadn't heard.) If the announcements on either day are incorrect, then the system isn't flexible.
Allow me to point out again that the R-142's dictated a year-long service pattern because they can't display a south terminal of 14th Street for the 2, or at the very least display the number 2 with no south terminal. It doesn't help that they can be updated in a year; the change was made with under 48 hours of planning. In that time, 1's were correctly set to New Lots and 3's got a blank south terminal (not ideal, as I said, but better than a point well past the actual terminal), but 2's continued flashing their Flatbush terminal because that's all they know (or knew) how to flash. The cars with flexible signage were resigned and the cars without flexible signage weren't, leading to the service pattern we see today as the only option.
But if you wish to insist that anything new must be better than anything old, regardless of actual merits, be my guest. Keep in mind that doing so makes no more sense than idolizing Redbirds because they're old.
"Allow me to point out again that the R-142's dictated a year-long service pattern because they can't display a south terminal of 14th Street for the 2, or at the very least display the number 2 with no south terminal."
Car assignments played no part whatsoever in the decision to run #2 service local and turn #3 trains at 14th Street.
David
I stand corrected.
So what was the reason for the decision? We had a prolonged discussion in late September or early October, and IIRC nobody came up with any reason other than that, since the 2 runs a hair more frequently than the 3 (in the pre-9/11/01 / post-9/15/02 arrangement), perhaps 14th doesn't have a high enough turning capacity for the 2. But having seen how long 3's sit at the terminal, that seems unlikely -- if trains came in and out, like on the rush hour 7 at Times Square, there'd be room for a lot more trains than turn there now. I came up with my conjecture a few months ago, and although I didn't get any confirmation, I didn't get any counterconfirmation either.
If the service plan had been reversed, with 1's going to Flatbush, 2's express to 14th, and 3's local to New Lots, how would the R-142's have been signed?
Maybe to 34th Street-Penn Station. I rode a train of R142s where they in fact flashed 34th Street as the south terminal. However I didn't get to ride them there or to see if they would announce "This is a 34th Street-bound 2 train" or something like that, because the train got rerouted down Lexington Ave. It was on the day that the Con Ed plant at 14th Street had that huge fire.
It was to minimize switching movements at 14th Street (which is not a full interlocking plant) and to maximize throughput through lower Manhattan. I believe I said this at the time, but I'm too lazy to look through the archives :-)
David
I know someone suggested it; I didn't think it was you.
I don't follow the reasoning. As I pointed out, 3 trains hardly use 14th at its capacity. As for lower Manhattan service, I think it would be sufficient to extend some of the 1 Chambers short-turns to Brooklyn -- outside of rush hours, the 1/2/3 south of 34th is pretty empty anyway (i.e., guaranteed seats, which is more than can be said for the lines north of 34th), largely due to the lack of express service, I think. I suppose, in September, the 3 may have been picked as the express just because it was safer to do things that way.
Are there really many more 2's than 3's? I thought it was something like 11 tph on the 2 and 9 or 10 tph on the 3 during rush hour under normal circumstances. The 7 turns more than 11 tph on each of its tracks at Times Square; 14th could handle 11 tph with no problem.
Thanks.
"So what was the reason for the decision? We had a prolonged discussion in late September or early October, and IIRC nobody came up with any reason other than that,..."
That doesn't mean there isn't one. We shouldn't flatter ourselves by assuming that there isn't a prefectly good, other explaination.
MATT-2AV
You know, when we discussed this a few weeks ago, you had pretty much won me over. However, I believe this recent development is a valid reason for reopening the debate.
Now you know what I feel would be the most ideal situation; to have the announcements triggered by an external source that could be updated in real time.
However, I don't believe the flexibility of the r142 is substantially less than that of the r62, or any other A Division train.
"Allow me to point out again that the R-142's dictated a year-long service pattern because they can't display a south terminal of 14th Street"
Roll signs often can't display many possible destinations and points of turning. If I recall, the R62 rollsigns can't display 14th Street, and 34th Street is the next closest thing (or visa versa).
"Will someone be listening to the announcements at Union Square on September 7 and 8? (I won't be able to.)"
If its a car other than an r142, then it is more likely than not that no one will be listening. Well, let me clarify. They'll be listening, but chances are, they would be unable to hear the correct announcement. The automated announcement system of the r142, I have found, is much easier to hear. Also, the automated system can be overridden by the conductor, thus effectively making it no different than that of any other A Division Car.
"I said that a decently designed automated system would take 15 minutes to update. It took over a year."
You are right on both counts. However, was it that NYCT was unable to update the system, or unwilling. New York City is notorious for demanding top of the line latest technology, and then not bothering to put the slightest effort into using it. This distinction is important, because the question then becomes "Is the MTA not doing their part in O&M for the cars they specified?" rather than "Is the r142 automated system inflexible?"
"But if you wish to insist that anything new must be better than anything old, regardless of actual merits, be my guest."
I'm not idolizing them because they're new, or because they're technology. They might be my favorite car to commute in, but on the A Division, that isn't saying much. You know my railfanning preferences. I'm just arguing that the perceived poor performance of the system might be outside the responsibility of the manufacturer.
MATT-2AV
However, I don't believe the flexibility of the r142 is substantially less than that of the r62, or any other A Division train.
No? They may have other benefits, but they don't have flexible signage, at least not compared to any other TA revenue cars aside from the few R-68's dedicated to the Franklin shuttle.
Just look at the numbers. A train with independent rollsigns for k routes, m north terminals, and n south terminals can display k*m*n combinations. That's a big number. Some will be actual combinations in use today; some will be combinations that might come up if service patterns are changed; some will be nonsensical. The R-142 ties the route number and the terminal together. There is no way to sign the X train with the terminal normally used by the Y (or normally used by nothing at all but included just in case). That reduces the flexibility. Mathematically. There is no way to properly sign an R-142 2 or 5 train to Utica or New Lots even though there is scheduled 2 and 5 service to Utica and New Lots every weekday.
I'm amazed that you keep insisting that the signage is flexible. In what way is it at all flexible in comparison to what exists on all older subway cars?
Roll signs often can't display many possible destinations and points of turning. If I recall, the R62 rollsigns can't display 14th Street, and 34th Street is the next closest thing (or visa versa).
Partial information is better than no information; both are better than incorrect information. The R-62A's without modified rollsigns (some were modified in October to include 14th Street) can display partial information: the route number and the north terminal. The R-142's can only display no information (not even a route number) or incorrect information.
If its a car other than an r142, then it is more likely than not that no one will be listening. Well, let me clarify. They'll be listening, but chances are, they would be unable to hear the correct announcement.
Really? You're claiming that the majority of announcements on older cars are inaudible. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim? Even Straphangers doesn't agree.
And most of the time I ride R-142's, I don't hear many correct announcements. That's because I ride the 2 in Manhattan, which loudly announces itself as the "2 express! train" at each stop. I hear an announcement, that's for sure -- it's too loud to tune out even if I don't want to hear it -- but it's not a correct announcement. The C/R on the last Redbird 2 train I rode announced at each express stop that it was a "2 making all stops to 241st Street in the Bronx." That was a correct announcement, and I heard it loud and clear (but not so loud that I couldn't ignore it if I knew where I was going).
Also, the automated system can be overridden by the conductor, thus effectively making it no different than that of any other A Division Car.
When was the last time you heard a C/R override the "2 express! train" announcement? I ride the 2 often and I never have. (The closest I heard was on a SB 2 leaving 110th: the C/R announced that all 2 trains ran local, and that anyone wishing express service could transfer to the 3. I don't think he was going to override the announcement at each stop, but I never found out since the train ended up being rerouted down the express track after all. So much for dependable service.)
I've confirmed to countless nervous passengers that the train would indeed be stopping at their local stop despite the announcement. I've seen the looks on countless passengers' faces when the express ride they were hoping for fizzles up. It makes a difference.
I don't understand your position. You seem to think it's important to have loud announcements but that it's not so important that they're correct. Am I right? Could you justify your position?
You are right on both counts. However, was it that NYCT was unable to update the system, or unwilling. New York City is notorious for demanding top of the line latest technology, and then not bothering to put the slightest effort into using it. This distinction is important, because the question then becomes "Is the MTA not doing their part in O&M for the cars they specified?" rather than "Is the r142 automated system inflexible?"
I'm not pointing fingers. All I'm saying is that the R-142 system, as designed and implemented, is badly flawed, specifically in the realm of flexibility.
You appear to be suggesting that someone at the TA could have spent 45 minutes (15 at each of three service changes) making corrections, but preferred instead to confuse the public for over a year. That's a pretty harsh accusation, and it's not an accusation I'm willing to make without more evidence.
I'm not idolizing them because they're new, or because they're technology. They might be my favorite car to commute in, but on the A Division, that isn't saying much. You know my railfanning preferences. I'm just arguing that the perceived poor performance of the system might be outside the responsibility of the manufacturer.
Then take your argument to someone else. I'm not pointing fingers. You first objected when someone hoped that the R-160 would be more flexible. You're the only one who's pulling the manufacturer into it.
"The R-142 ties the route number and the terminal together."
We, as railfans, love the fact that the NYC subway trackage permits endless combinations. Unlike most other systems where a train can only go from point A to Point B and back, through a combination of moves and reverse moves, an A Division train can leave one terminal and arrive at any other terminal in the system.
However, the MTA has made the decision a long time ago that, despite the flexibility of the system, a route number will represent a specific and predefined path between two terminals. And this is what the R142 reflects.
"Really? You're claiming that the majority of announcements on older cars are inaudible. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim? Even Straphangers doesn't agree."
Of course I have evidence to back this claim up. Up until a month ago, I rode the (4), (5), and (6) every day.
Now while we're on the topic of evidence, I have continuously asked you to substantiate the claim that the R-142 dictated the service pattern on the West Side IRT. Now that's "a pretty harsh accusation, and it's not an accusation [I would be] willing to make without more evidence."
Now the Straphangers go into the topic of correct announcements. If you'd care to visit their site, you may click here. Yes, clarity has improved over the past 2 years, but my personal opinion is that the quality of announcements, especially on the r62 series, is abysmal. You may check the archives for a thread on this matter.
"The R-62A's without modified rollsigns (some were modified in October to include 14th Street) can display partial information: the route number and the north terminal."
That doesn't help the half of the people going the other way! No one (except us) cares where the train came from, only where it is going!
I was doing some railfanning last weekend to see what the GO was about on the West Side IRT. Where did the roll sign indicate the northbound train was turning? 242-VCP. How many people were upset, because in addition to the roll sign, no announcement was made that said the train was turning at 215? Lots.
Now that's not an acceptable condition, and in my opinion, neither is the fact that it took so long to update the R142 series. So lets back off of the harsh accusations here. Otherwise, it must follow that the r62 series, in the realm of announcements, is also "...badly flawed..." as you say.
"You appear to be suggesting that someone at the TA could have spent 45 minutes (15 at each of three service changes) making corrections, but preferred instead to confuse the public for over a year."
You have to do work for the City to understand just how bad things can be. I can tell you endless stories, just from three years experience, about millions and millions of taxpayer dollars thrown away by bureaucracy.
I have no evidence to substantiate the claim that the MTA willingly confused people for over a year. I certainly hope that is not the case, but it also wouldn't surprise me.
"You're the only one who's pulling the manufacturer into it."
Who built the cars?
If "...the R-142 system, as designed and implemented, is badly flawed,...", as you say, then the balme has to lie somewhere. The r142 was built to specification for the MTA. Therefore, there are three outcomes:
1) If the cars were not built to specification, then there will be a huge lawsuit, and the manufacturer is to blame. That's unlikely, because the r142, r142a, and r143 have similar systems.
2) If the cars were built to specification, and the system is difficult to update, then the MTA is responsible for the system we have.
3) If the cars were built to specification, and the system is easier to update, then the MTA is again to blame.
So unless the first alternative is true, you then have to blame the client, which in this case, is the MTA. Is that an accusation you are willing to make?
This may be another issue where we have to agree to disagree. Yet in light of the recent developments, I find your criticism of the r142 series unjustifiably harsh.
MATT-2AV
Although trackage permits it, NYCT now operates in a manner in which a route number is essewnfixed
That's a big number. Some will be actual combinations in use today; some will be combinations that might come up if service patterns are changed; some will be nonsensical.
We, as railfans, love the fact that the NYC subway trackage permits endless combinations. Unlike most other systems where a train can only go from point A to Point B and back, through a combination of moves and reverse moves, an A Division train can leave one terminal and arrive at any other terminal in the system.
Railfans love it. So does the TA, when encountered with track blockages (short-term and long-term, planned and unplanned), and when encountered with changing ridership patterns that warrant modifications to the route structure.
However, the MTA has made the decision a long time ago that, despite the flexibility of the system, a route number will represent a specific and predefined path between two terminals. And this is what the R142 reflects.
Really? No, I don't think that's the case at all. Over the past year or so, I can think of these A Division north and south terminals off the top of my head (ignoring the week after the WTC attack, with its multitude of route patterns):
The 1 has had a scheduled north terminal of 242nd and GO north terminals of 215th, 137th, and Utica. The 1 has had scheduled south terminals of South Ferry, New Lots, and Chambers and GO south terminals of Dyckman, 34th, and Utica.
The 2 has had a scheduled north terminal of 241st and a GO north terminal of 238th. The 2 has had scheduled south terminals of Flatbush and New Lots and a GO south terminal of 14th.
The 3 has had scheduled north terminals of 148th, E180, and 241st (or 238th?) and a GO north terminal of 137th. The 3 has had scheduled south terminals of New Lots and 14th and a GO south terminal of Times Square.
The 4 has had a scheduled north terminal of Woodlawn and GO north terminals of 125th, 14/7, and Brooklyn Bridge. The 4 has had scheduled south terminals of Utica and New Lots and GO south terminals of 149-GC, 125th, Brooklyn Bridge, Borough Hall, and Atlantic.
The 5 has had scheduled north terminals of Dyre and 238th and a GO north terminal of 149-GC. The 5 has had scheduled south terminals of E180, Bowling Green, Flatbush, Utica, and New Lots and GO south terminals of 149-GC, Times Square, and Chambers.
The 6 has had scheduled north terminals of Pelham Bay and Parkchester and a GO north terminal of 125th. The 6 has had a scheduled south terminal of Brooklyn Bridge and a GO south terminal of 125th.
The 7 has had scheduled north terminals of Main, Willets Point, and 11th. The 7 has had a scheduled south terminal of Times Square and GO south terminals of Queensboro Plaza and (IINM) Grand Central.
I hardly see a "specific and predefined path between two terminals" on each of these routes. What I see is a great deal of variation, some of it planned and some of it unplanned.
You've changed your tune. Up until now, you were claiming the R-142's had no less flexible signage than any other car. Now you've relaxed your claim: all you're saying is that the R-142 system is adequate. I obviously disagree with that also, but it's not at all what you were claiming before.
Of course I have evidence to back this claim up. Up until a month ago, I rode the (4), (5), and (6) every day.
I'm afraid I need more than that, since I also ride the subway and I have no trouble understanding well over 50% of the in-car announcements I attempt to listen to. (Station announcements are a cruel joke, however.)
Now while we're on the topic of evidence, I have continuously asked you to substantiate the claim that the R-142 dictated the service pattern on the West Side IRT. Now that's "a pretty harsh accusation, and it's not an accusation [I would be] willing to make without more evidence."
It's not an accusation. It's a response that makes perfect sense given the situation.
Now the Straphangers go into the topic of correct announcements. If you'd care to visit their site, you may click here. Yes, clarity has improved over the past 2 years, but my personal opinion is that the quality of announcements, especially on the r62 series, is abysmal. You may check the archives for a thread on this matter.
My experience is that they're usually audible and informative. Sometimes they fall short on one count or the other.
That doesn't help the half of the people going the other way! No one (except us) cares where the train came from, only where it is going!
But I'm sure they care that it's a 3 train. The R-142's don't have a fallback mechanism that allows displaying a route number but no destination if the desired destination isn't available for whatever reason. (And given that disk space is cheaper than rollsign space, one would hope that the R-142's would have more destinations to choose from. In fact, they have fewer.)
I was doing some railfanning last weekend to see what the GO was about on the West Side IRT. Where did the roll sign indicate the northbound train was turning? 242- VCP. How many people were upset, because in addition to the roll sign, no announcement was made that said the train was turning at 215? Lots.
The usual practice during a short-turn GO if the rollsign doesn't have the desired terminal is to set it either to the nearest terminal before the actual one or to set it to the blank setting or "Special" (or similar). I'm sorry your train wasn't signed properly.
But I have trouble with your claims about the announcements. How did the C/R identify the train at each stop? (If he had been an R-142 computer, he would have likely identified it loudly and prominently as a "Bronx-bound 1 train.") Are you suggesting that he claimed at each stop that his train was going to the Bronx, and at 215th announced that the next stop would be 225th? That's mighty unusual. Could he have been confused about when the GO was scheduled to end?
Now that's not an acceptable condition, and in my opinion, neither is the fact that it took so long to update the R142 series. So lets back off of the harsh accusations here. Otherwise, it must follow that the r62 series, in the realm of announcements, is also "...badly flawed..." as you say.
Neither one is an acceptable condition. One is a one-time condition on one train caused by a misinformed, lazy, or incompetent C/R. If he persists in being misinformed, lazy, or incompetent, he should be asked to find another job. The other is a long-term condition (over a year and counting) on hundreds of trains caused by poor design. The design should be corrected for future orders and the existing poorly designed systems should be repaired or replaced.
You have to do work for the City to understand just how bad things can be. I can tell you endless stories, just from three years experience, about millions and millions of taxpayer dollars thrown away by bureaucracy.
Perhaps you're unaware that neither the MTA nor NYCT is a city agency.
I have no evidence to substantiate the claim that the MTA willingly confused people for over a year. I certainly hope that is not the case, but it also wouldn't surprise me.
I have no iron-clad evidence one way or the other, either. However, why would the very same agency that replaced thousands of signs and maps multiple times not bother making some quick modifications to an electronic system?
Who built the cars?
If "...the R-142 system, as designed and implemented, is badly flawed,...", as you say, then the balme has to lie somewhere. The r142 was built to specification for the MTA. Therefore, there are three outcomes:
1) If the cars were not built to specification, then there will be a huge lawsuit, and the manufacturer is to blame. That's unlikely, because the r142, r142a, and r143 have similar systems.
2) If the cars were built to specification, and the system is difficult to update, then the MTA is responsible for the system we have.
3) If the cars were built to specification, and the system is easier to update, then the MTA is again to blame.
So unless the first alternative is true, you then have to blame the client, which in this case, is the MTA. Is that an accusation you are willing to make?
No. As I said, I'm not accusing anybody. Mistakes happen. All I'm asking is that they not be repeated.
This may be another issue where we have to agree to disagree. Yet in light of the recent developments, I find your criticism of the r142 series unjustifiably harsh.
What recent developments? That a few 6 trains finally have updated announcements? Most of them still don't, and the 2 still declares itself an express.
>>>The 4 has had a scheduled north terminal of Woodlawn and GO north terminals of 125th, 14/7, and Brooklyn Bridge. The 4 has had scheduled south terminals of Utica and New Lots and GO south terminals of 149-GC, 125th, Brooklyn Bridge, Borough Hall, and Atlantic.<<<
When did the 4 terminate at 14th Street & 7th Avenue? And how would it have done so as a north terminal?
The 4 was running in two segments, one between Woodlawn and Borough Hall (SB track) and one between 14/7 and Utica (on 20-minute headways). It was being announced as split service at Borough Hall, but there's no way to turn trains on the West Side tracks at Borough Hall, so they ran all the way to 14th and relayed north of the station. (This was before 9/11 -- I think it was in August -- so the 3 wasn't in the way. The 2 and 3 ran local to 34th get by.)
David,
You're not convincing anybody here, and I suspect not even yourself.
"No. As I said, I'm not accusing anybody. Mistakes happen. All I'm asking is that they not be repeated."
No, if you're going to make such a claim, someone has to be responsible. You're lack of understanding of contract work is understandable. I have told you repeatedly that the r142 was built on contract for the MTA. If there is such a severe problem (as you claim), someone must be responsible for that problem.
So I ask you again: whose fault is this? If there is a problem, someone has to be responsible.
Your refusal to assign blame indicates to me that this is more of a blind rage against the r142, and not a clear criticism.
"Really? No, I don't think that's the case at all. Over the past year or so, I can think of these A Division north and south terminals off the top of my head (ignoring the week after the WTC attack, with its multitude of route patterns):"
...and then you go on to list all these A Division scheduled runs. I'm impressed by the time it took you to write all that up. Too bad you repeat the same word in each of these instances: GO
As I said before, NYCT has apparently made the decision that a route number will represent a specific set of terminals for normal operation. That’s not a GO, David. In their wisdom (or lack thereof), NYCT has decided that all possible GO routings need not be represented by rollsigns… or the r142 automated system. Rollsigns have also been shown to be inadequate, as we have discussed.
"Perhaps you're unaware that neither the MTA nor NYCT is a city agency."
Neither is the NYSDEP, and I work with them as well as the NYCDEP. It’s irrelevant. Bureaucracy is bureaucracy.
"The usual practice during a short-turn GO if the rollsign doesn't have the desired terminal is to set it either to the nearest terminal before the actual one or to set it to the blank setting or "Special" (or similar). I'm sorry your train wasn't signed properly."
I'm not sorry, as it reinforces the fact I keep trying to make you aware of: the MTA has decided, for better or worse, that proper signage during a temporary (like weekend) GO is not a high priority.
Otherwise, rollsigns would have every possible point of turning in the system. Why is that, David, that rollsigns don’t have every possible permutation? They have a few, but not all.
”However, why would the very same agency that replaced thousands of signs and maps multiple times not bother making some quick modifications to an electronic system?”
It doesn’t seem consistent to me either. However, again you are quick to bash the r142, but you stop yourself short of blaming the responsible party.
Saying mistakes happen doesn’t cut it. You must assign blame.
And you don’t want to blame NYCT or the MTA because it opens you up to acknowledging that the r142 is the exact car that was ordered, and that either agency doesn’t feel that proper signage during a forsaken overnight weekend GO is important.
Should it be important? That’s a different argument.
” The design should be corrected for future orders and the existing poorly designed systems should be repaired or replaced.”
But ah! It isn’t. This leads you to two conclusions that you refuse to look at! Either the MTA or NYCT feels the announcement system is acceptable. Or, the announcement system is more flexible than it appears, and NYCT had difficulty (or a laziness) in proper O&M.
These aren’t televisions we’re talking about here. These cars aren’t just manufactured. They were built on contract and to specification for the MTA (or NYCT). If you’re not going to inform yourself as to the actual process that takes place in a subway car contract, then there is little point in me trying to educate you further.
Let me ask you this: why is the same “mistake” in the r142, the r142a, and from what I hear, the r143?
”You've changed your tune. Up until now, you were claiming the R-142's had no less flexible signage than any other car. Now you've relaxed your claim: all you're saying is that the R-142 system is adequate.“
You’re half right. I’m actually expressing both points. Yes, both points. It depends on what is actually going on behind the scenes, which we don’t know.
If the MTA specified an inflexible system, and the system as such cannot be readily updated, then the system is apparently and by definition adequate, as the TA has felt flexibility is not required.
If the MTA specified a flexible system, but has been lax in updating it, then the system is probably as flexible (maybe even more so) as that on any other of the A division trains. We’re just not seeing it.
MATT-2AV
P.S.: Did you check out that Straphangers site?
One thing since the r-14/r143 signs are digital and not fixed roll signs new software can be installed to adress osme of the short shighted ness that that MTA had in originally programing the signs.
My best guess is that the MTA has it's priorities in order and that is to get all the mechanical issues worked out with the new train sets and worry about the automated anouncements at a latter date.
THe reprograming interface can be easily reworked. Alot easier and less expensive then changing a brking system or other mechanical issues.
You certainly are the voice of reason.
David and I go back and forth on these topics, practicing our forensics. If I didn't respect his opinion, however wrong it may be ;), I wouldn't bother witht he effort.
David and I are alumni of the same school, believe it or not, although we didn't know each other until we met on this board.
David and I are just going to have to agree to disagree here.
You raise a very good point, in that the absence of a software upgrade may not be the sign of willful laziness, but rather a need to deal with perceived higher priorities.
MATT-2AV
However, again you are quick to bash the r142, but you stop yourself short of blaming the responsible party.
It's entirely possible to know sumthg bad has happened without knowing who did it. Where would the detective novel be without this?
So, okay, Poirot, who ****ed up the R142 (and whilst you're on, please tell us who killed JFK)?
The Free Masons. Duh.
MATT-2AV
Okay, seriously. This isn't story book detective work here. There are three contracts out there for cars with automated systems: the r142, the r142a, and the r143. All three cars, built under separate contract, display the same apparent lack of flexibility.
As I said to David, these aren't defective televisions that rolled off the assembly line. These cras were built to specification. The automated announcement system would be clearly defined in those specifications. Division 17, to be specific. I'm a certified CDT as well as a practicing engineer.
In other words, the manufacturer was supposed to build what the MTA told them to build.
Now there are only two things that could have happened, my dear Watson; the cars were either built to specification or not.
I think the only way to get to the bottom of this is for me to actually request the contract r142(a) detailed specifications under the Freedom of Information Act. They are public documents. I'm not an instrumentation engineer, so they may be hard to decipher. But that'smore detective work than I'm willing to put in.
MATT-2AV
I reckon it's a conspiracy - both the MTA and Bombardier are to blame! Funny you should mention the masons - I got invited to join (and said no).
What about Kawasaki? Their cars apparently have the same system. That's what has got me suspicious of the MTA,
MATT-2AV
Without speaking out of place, my experience of record is that R142s have not been assembled to specification and quality control is lacking. Too many incidents have ocurred...too many assemblies fail proper mechanical technique. I spoke to one of the line supervisors from Bombardier that I went out on special inspections with...and told him I worked in a Defense Plant where Gov't Inspectors monitored activities...Bombardier needs skilled and concious (conciounsense) TA CAr Inspectors to monitor and check the assembly line. He had no arguement...guy struggles with the problems just as we do. MATT-2AV: maybe I don't have YOUR credentials but I am an experienced/licensed comm tech with years of automated control experience...TA hired me for electrical work. Gotta get rid of Redbirds so more of my experience can be put to use. Changing out parts on R142s in 'troubles' is not my forte. CI tells me I was hired as a 'mechanic,' sure, I can do that, fix your lawnmower or tractor BUT until a force of 'skilled older guys' is pooled together and instructed, NewTech is a 'plague.' CI Peter
No, if you're going to make such a claim, someone has to be responsible. You're lack of understanding of contract work is understandable. I have told you repeatedly that the r142 was built on contract for the MTA. If there is such a severe problem (as you claim), someone must be responsible for that problem.
Someone is responsible, but it's of little interest to me who that is. It appears to be of great interest to you -- if you want to find someone to blame, be my guest. I just want the mistake to be corrected.
...and then you go on to list all these A Division scheduled runs. I'm impressed by the time it took you to write all that up. Too bad you repeat the same word in each of these instances: GO
Take a closer look. I included many variant routings that take place every day. Such as the 5, which has scheduled south terminals of E180, Bowling Green, Flatbush, Utica, and New Lots every weekday. Those aren't GO's -- they're in the regular schedule. As I've pointed out before (and as 5 crew members have confirmed), there is no way to sign an R-142 5 train to two of those destinations. It simply can't be done. Passengers on those trains are, by necessity, either given incorrect information about where the train is going or given no information whatsoever, not even a route number. That is, unless those trains are 40-year-old Redbirds using what was old technology when the Redbirds first hit the tracks, in which case they're signed accurately. The Redbirds have Utica and New Lots readings anyway (the 4 needs them), so they can be used for any train going to Utica or New Lots.
I've brought up this example a few times already. I look forward to your response this time.
As I said before, NYCT has apparently made the decision that a route number will represent a specific set of terminals for normal operation. That’s not a GO, David. In their wisdom (or lack thereof), NYCT has decided that all possible GO routings need not be represented by rollsigns… or the r142 automated system. Rollsigns have also been shown to be inadequate, as we have discussed.
No, rollsigns have been shown to be imperfect -- like much else in life. Electronic signs have the capability of being an improvement -- see, e.g., the R-44/46 electronic signs, which can show arbitrary stations as destinations. But the R-142 electronic system is a clear step down in flexibility from rollsign technology. Every route-destination combination that can be displayed on an R-142 can also be displayed on an R-62, while many route-destination combinations that can be displayed on an R-62 cannot be displayed on an R-142.
I'm not sorry, as it reinforces the fact I keep trying to make you aware of: the MTA has decided, for better or worse, that proper signage during a temporary (like weekend) GO is not a high priority.
I've ridden through many GO's, and almost always the signs are set properly -- by that I mean that they're set to the actual terminals in effect at the time, or if one of those isn't on the sign, then the sign is set either to a nearby station before the terminal or to the blank or "Special" setting.
However, I will grant you that nobody seems to have bothered resetting most of the signs on the 1 this weekend. I rode a few 1 trains tonight, and saw many more, and every train I saw except one car (just one car, not even an entire train) was improperly set to 242nd. The C/R on the NB 1 train I rode even announced that his train was going to Van Cortlandt. I don't know why, but I was quite surprised.
More typical is this (taken during a GO in January):
Otherwise, rollsigns would have every possible point of turning in the system. Why is that, David, that rollsigns don’t have every possible permutation? They have a few, but not all.
Because space is finite. A rollsign that included every station wouldn't fit in the box. The most likely terminals were selected and the rest were left out. If the shuttle bus service started at Dyckman instead of at 215th, the trains could be signed perfectly, even though there's no scheduled service terminating at Dyckman.
Let me ask you this: why is the same “mistake” in the r142, the r142a, and from what I hear, the r143?
Because it's the same automated system. Even if somebody had realized the mistake after the first R-142 and R-142A began operating, it was probably too late to change the R-143 order.
P.S.: Did you check out that Straphangers site?
I'm quite familiar with it. I recently got an email from them, in response to an email I had sent them over a year earlier. Why do you ask?
Please answer a simple question for me: what is it that you are claiming? Is it that the R-142 signage system is at least as flexible as the signage systems on the older cars? (If so, you'll have to explain how you arrive at that conclusion, seeing as I pointed out above that the R-142 can display a proper subset of the route-destination combinations that the R-62 can.) Or is it that the R-142 signage system, while perhaps not very flexible in comparison with other signage systems, is good enough for the task at hand? (If so, we'll have to agree to disagree, but I think the evidence that even the TA considers it "good enough" is weak.) Pick one or the other (or both).
What I don't get is why they didn't program the rollsigns to be able to show any combination - it wouldn't exactly be difficult.
Consider:
IRT:
- 169 Stations (if I counted right), so < 2^8, so each can be represented by an 8 digit binary number
- Northern and Southern Terminals need to be shown, so 16 digits.
- Line numbers (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), <5>, (6), <6>, (7), <7>, (9), (S) - 12 in total < 2^4, so 4 more digits.
- Only 4 trunks (7th, Lex, Flushing, Shuttle), all but one need Local/Express, so 7 trunks < 2^3, so 3 more digits.
This adds up that a 23 digit number could uniquely identify 2 IRT stations as terminals, give a route number, a trunk route and local/express. It doesn't take a genius to realise that a computer could take such a number and display the relevant information on the signs.
This could be used, either by getting the C/R to input a number into the system, or by some sort of user interface (less likely to give mistaken destinations) by which he/she could select the relevant details.
Digital signage is a great opportunity. It's a pity someone at the TA (or perhaps at Bombardier and Kawasaki) didn't give it 20 minutes thought to come up with a good way of using it.
Agreed, that would be great, and it would only take three bytes. (Just clarifying your point -- 23 binary digits. Actually, there's no need for both north and south terminals as the train is presumably only traveling one way at a time.) The stations are already all encoded for the interior signage.
(R-46's, while not quite that versatile, have a fairly impressive system. Northbound F trains today, running via the G, were signed as F / FOREST HILLS / 71 AV / via CROSSTOWN -- I'm surprised that's even an option!)
Ideally, it would only be the fallback system. It should be possible to manually program the system for any physically plausible route; the computer would figure out what the proper signage should be. But in case that system goes haywire for whatever reason, the C/R should be able to turn off the strip maps and display any arbitrary route number, destination, and routing. (Yes, the C/R. All this stuff is currently controlled by the T/O, believe it or not.)
If we're going to accept the disadvantages of electronic signage (it's harder to read), shouldn't we also accept its advantages?
and it would only take three bytes. (Just clarifying your point -- 23 binary digits.
Thanks. Well done for deciphering my waffling musings! I was literally working things out as I typed, so it probably wasn't all that clear.
The stations are already all encoded for the interior signage.
Maybe incorporating the two systems together would be a damn good idea. Why have two computers doing the same job (with all the possibilities of getting out of synch) when one would do?
It should be possible to manually program the system for any physically plausible route
Putting the qualification "physically plausible" can make a hell of a difference. It would of course make a better program, but it would take up more space. Also, where would one draw the line as to what's physically plausible and what's not? It's obvious that through routings between Flushing Line only stations and non-Flushing Line stations wouldn't be considered plausible, but even something really stupid, like Times Square to Union Square, would be possible, if only by using the South Ferry loop. Perhaps the best thing to do in that case would be to beep at the C/R with a msgbox along the lines of "Are you sure? That seems an amazingly silly routing".
If we're going to accept the disadvantages of electronic signage (it's harder to read), shouldn't we also accept its advantages?
Yes, the advantages must be seized and utilised to the full. Also disadvantages should be minimised. On illegible displays, there is definitely development work to be done. Indeed a hell of a lot of work has already been done - one only needs to look at the monitor on one's desk - how much better is it than that two-tone green thing which plugged into an Amstrad PCW ten years ago? If this world can create True Color graphics for my desk, it surely can create readably decent displays for the railroad.
Thanks. Well done for deciphering my waffling musings! I was literally working things out as I typed, so it probably wasn't all that clear.
Oh, it was perfectly clear to me.
Maybe incorporating the two systems together would be a damn good idea. Why have two computers doing the same job (with all the possibilities of getting out of synch) when one would do?
They are incorporated already -- it's impossible to put up signs for anything that isn't an official route. (So Sunday's R-142 5 trains were signed for Bowling Green even though they were terminating at 149-GC. The Redbirds I saw all were signed "Special" on the sides and for 149-GC on the front.)
But I'd like to see them incorporated in a more helpful way.
Putting the qualification "physically plausible" can make a hell of a difference. It would of course make a better program, but it would take up more space. Also, where would one draw the line as to what's physically plausible and what's not? It's obvious that through routings between Flushing Line only stations and non-Flushing Line stations wouldn't be considered plausible, but even something really stupid, like Times Square to Union Square, would be possible, if only by using the South Ferry loop. Perhaps the best thing to do in that case would be to beep at the C/R with a msgbox along the lines of "Are you sure? That seems an amazingly silly routing".
Times Square to Union Square would, indeed, be silly, but one of the classical IRT GO's (with South Ferry available) has NB 2 trains running up the East Side and SB 5 trains looping through SF and running back up the West Side. When I rode it last year, the poster explicitly instructed Brooklyn-to-West Side passengers to take a 2 or 4 to Bowling Green or Wall, cross under, and take a SB 5, which would run through the loop and turn into a NB 2 through Manhattan. (It was so much fun I did it twice in one day, at the railfan window, of course.) Wouldn't it be neat if that were programmed as a single route from Dyre to Dyre?
(The late night version of that GO, with no 5 in Manhattan, was perhaps even more interesting. The 2 would run up the 4 as far as Wall, and then change ends and return to its normal route at Chambers.)
Yes, the advantages must be seized and utilised to the full. Also disadvantages should be minimised. On illegible displays, there is definitely development work to be done. Indeed a hell of a lot of work has already been done - one only needs to look at the monitor on one's desk - how much better is it than that two-tone green thing which plugged into an Amstrad PCW ten years ago? If this world can create True Color graphics for my desk, it surely can create readably decent displays for the railroad.
One would hope so. Still, rollsigns are a lot easier to read, especially at a distance. I think it would have been nice if the bulkhead rollsign could have been retained (as on the R-110B, which is otherwise electronic) and if the side signs could have been large enough to display two lines of text at once (like the newer bus signs).
and take a SB 5, which would run through the loop and turn into a NB 2 through Manhattan. (It was so much fun I did it twice in one day
Round and round and round and round and round... :D:D:D
Wouldn't it be neat if that were programmed as a single route from Dyre to Dyre?
The rollsigns would need clockwise / counter-clockwise signs then... would be a sight!
So Sunday's R-142 5 trains were signed for Bowling Green even though they were terminating at 149-GC.
Whoever programmed the computer on the R142s should be shot. Talk about a "customer be damned" attitude. The electronic rollsigns were LYING. With the only other option to misinformation being no information, it shows that someone did a lousy job.
there is a scheduled train on the 5 that turns at city hall
Fun merging!!! What time is that one?
As a Train Operator who works the 6 line frequently, and hears the automated announcement from the operating cab, I have never once had a train that didn't make proper station announcements.
Not station announcements, transfer announcements.
There's a new memo out on the 6 line. C/R's are told to make all transfer announcements. If you don't do so, you'll be written up the first time, and taken out of service the second time.
Transfer announcements should be better now.
Well it's about time! I've noticed "The next stop is..." message on the R142A's that are running on the 4, which also announce the Q and W at 14th St and Atlantic and the W at 59th. Now if they could only update those line maps. I guess they're finally working on the 6's cars. I hope they get to the 2 soon (probably not, the 2 line is cursed)
I ride the 6 at least twice everyday, and so far that was the only train I have seen annouce the proper transfers. They're probably upgrading all the newer trainsets while the older ones are stuck with the incorrect preprogrammed announcements.
The line maps should be scapped.
What a waste of money
Can anyone tell me why there are line maps AND inside side LCD screens on the R-143's
Couln't the inside lcd's do the job of the line maps
It makes not sense that you spend all the money to have LCD\LED desination signs and you remove the flexibilty of having these signs by installling fixed line maps
I rode the 7651-60 set today on the 6 for one stop and it said: "The next stop is Astor Pl."
Excuse me, the Interior Display showed: "The next stop is Astor Pl."
Has anybody/everybody seen the brochure the TA has placed in certain stations? {actually I've only seen it in one, maybe they don't care if you see it or not}
It addresses all of the new features of the R142/142A/143, mostly everything that you can ascertain just by riding the train, but it also adds something that may resolve conflict on this board as to what lines will get the new trains. It said by the end of 2003, you will be riding the new trains on the L, M, 2, 4, 5, and 6. This came out about the same time NY1 had a story about two weeks ago about the new trains. That by 2007, they would be running on the A, C, E, J, M, Z, L, N, and Q. The A, C, E, N, and Q will probably be the ones with the R160s. {No mention is made as to what the Q will look like in 2007 after the bridge swap.}
The 3 will have a full fleet of R-142's.
As for the R-160, it's quite a few years off and plans can change, but there will certainly be R-160's on the Eastern Division -- there will only be enough R-143's to cover the L and a bit of the M.
I saw it... After I picked it up, I was surprised to see how off the MTA would go to make the pamplets so shiny and modern.
I grabbed some a few weeks ago. The MTA should be sued for printing the photos "stretched" so that they intentionally mislead the reader to assume the new cars are much wider than they really are.
This morning, my Manhattan-bound R ground to a halt at Union Street. The quite animated Motorman (it wasn't the conductor) informed us there was a "deranged individual" running around on the tracks between Prince & 8th Streets. Eventually, scores of us abandoned ship & hoofed it down to Atlantic Ave. for IRT service. Anyone else have additional information?
AN emotionally disturb person, EDP in transit talk, was running on the tracks. Police were at all statiosn from 28 to Canal. There was also a pick pocket incident at park Place IRT and he fled on the tracks.
Also had a north Nancy that had to lock out the first car at around 7:50am b/c they could clear the guard light but the door was closed.
yet more subway crime. Things are really slipping. :-(
"deranged individual"..................... I guess Dennis Riga is at it again!
ahhh...didja hafta go there?
Peace,
ANDEE
that too
"deranged individual" running around on the tracks
-Today is my RDO. :)
Uh, Oh! We're in trouble now! ;-)
Maybe this "deranged individual" was roaming the tracks in hopes of being nicked by a passing train so he could sue the TA for millions !
Bill "Newkirk"
Or maybe he wasn't thinking about himself being killed by an oncoming train or being electricuted
US&S AWARDED CONTRACT FOR NJ TRANSIT ADVANCED SPEED ENFORCEMENT CAB SIGNALING TRAIN CONTROL SYSTEMS
Union Switch & Signal Inc. (US&S) has been awarded a contract by Alstom Transportation, Inc. to deliver Advanced Speed Enforcement System (ASES) cab signaling for new diesel-electric locomotives furnished by Alstom to New Jersey Transit.
Posted yesterday by Railpace in their Hot News section.
(Scroll down past the Acela Express stuff; more info given)
As they invented cab signaling it is only sensible that they should be the ones to install it.
I wish they'd won the contract to upgrade the signalling system on division 1 (green lines) here in Stockholm. The Siemens LZB 700 system seems to have actually reduced the lines' capacity below what the original US&S cab signalling system provided. (I'm not sure Siemens is to blame for that, though; I've heard different rumors.)
Mvh Tim
An thinking of moving to the area around the "M" train there in the next few months, & wanted to get some opinions on train service in the area. I live in Bay Ridge on the "R", so I already know from G.O.'s & other headaches. Any feedback is appreciated.
An thinking of moving to the area around the "M" train there in the next few months, & wanted to get some opinions on train service in the area. I live in Bay Ridge on the "R", so I already know from G.O.'s & other headaches. Any feedback is appreciated.
I live on Fresh Pond near the Ridgewood/Maspeth border, close to Middle village.
It's a safe neighbourhood, but relatively non-descript and not very "upscale." As my wife says, there will never be a Starbucks around here < grin >. Unfortunately, grafitti on neighbourhood buildings has been on the rise lately, and the character of the area has changed noticeably (and not for the better) since we moved into the region in 2000.
Transit around here sucks eggs, unless you like riding busses or you work in lower Manhattan. Anything else requires a bus (in our case, the Q58) to the subway. The M is a pain in the ass because of the frequent shuttle-only service in the off-hours, and long bridge delays for the next little while. Also, if you ride in the off-hours, the after-school crowd is often very rough-and-tumble.
In retrospect, I wouldn't have moved here had I known how difficult it is to get anywhere by transit. Parking isn't too bad most times, but it can get rough after the evening rush. Nowhere near as bad as Bay Ridge! There are also a few express busses that do a pretty good job, but of course, these are rush-hours only.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 NOW AVAILABLE!
Thanks for the input. I'll be getting married early next year, & it's diffcult to find a place to love. I figured Ridgewood could be a good bet since I work in Lower Manhattan, & my better half works near Union Square. Seems like a fairly safe, affordable area.
Try Sunnyside, too.
Your right along the 7 train, by the beautiful Queens Blvd viaduct. There is a thriving commercial area along Queens Blvd, 46th St, and Greenpoint Av.
There are some very nice Apartment buildings in the area, but also a few dumpy ones. As you go closer to the Expressway on the south side of the neighborhood, you come to small, but tidy rowhouses, which have little garages and everything. The big apartment buildings closest to the Blvd are populated mostly by South-American latinos, and the closer to the expressway you go, it becomes mostly Irish. It's a safe neighborhood, but at night many people hang out on the streets. It's rarely a problem, but some people don't like it too much. And the kids hanging out at the playground near 39th and Greenpoint can get a little rowdy at night, but violent crime is rare. Like i said, the closer to the expressway you go, the much quieter the neighborhood gets.
Rents are reasonable and you are 10 minutes to Grand Central. Subway service is excellent, as long as you dont mind waiting some mornings for 4 or 5 packed trains to pass by before a less-crowded one comes.
My wife moved from Sunset Park years before I met her, and I wound up marrying into Ridgewood, and spending courtship traveling back and forth first Midwood, then Roosevelt Island. Please, do not do that to your fiance. :-) If she lives somewhere better, move with here. (They were having a lot of Go. O's on 4th Av. years ago, so she didn't thin the N & R were much better. But at least when they are running, you can get to Downtown and Midtown on one train. Here, you can only get to downtown on one train weekdays, and on weekends (when there isn't much downtown), it can be 3 trains to Midtown, uptown, and even other parts of Queens, if yu don't feel ike waiting forever for buses, and then stuck in traffic in long slow routes lke the Q58 for hours.
If you come over here, She may not only work in Union square, but that may be the only part of Manhattan you recreate in, if she, like my wife and friends, usually won't feel like first gtetting to the L, then having to climb stairs to transfer to something else.
In answer to Peter, there may be Starbucks around in the future, as a lot of people from the Village are moving down the L line, especially into lofts being made in the factory belt. I don't know if this will ever reach Fresh Pond, which is further back away from the L.
Ridgewood was always the Graffitti capital of Queens. And no, it never will house a Starbucks.
It's funny how you use Starbucks as an indicator of affluence. I do the same. Whenever a real estate agent tries to rent me an apartment for $1,100 in that dump of a neighborhood, Astoria, telling me that the neighborhood is going upscale, I respond by saying, "You have check cashing stores and internation calling centers popping up on every corner, and you'll never see Starbucks or Barnes and Noble in this neighborhood. Take your $1,100, I can get something better and cheaper in Forest Hills, Rego Park, or Kew Gardens".
Not that I'm the type to sit around reading books and sipping a $5 Caffe Grande, but I'm tired of people sugar coating Astoria.
Astoria doesn't need sugar-coating. It's already a respectable place to live.
It's very respectable. No doubt. But real estate agents and home owners try to portrait it as the Brooklyn Heights of Queens. They charge the highest rents in Queens right now, and it's not fair. It's a mainly a working class neighborhood, and should be priced as such. The reason the rents are so high is that you have so many immigrants, mainly ones who work as cab drivers or restaurant workers, who will pay high rents to be close to their jobs. If I could find something in the so-called "Upper Ditmars" section, I might go back. Might. Why pay as much or more to live out there when I could find something for the same price or less in Forest Hills, Bayside, or Rego Park?
"Why pay as much or more to live out there when I could find something for the same price or less in Forest Hills, Bayside, or Rego Park?"
One reason might be that Astoria is a shorter trip to Manhattan than those places. Many people care about that.
Very true. A classic example of how geography and a very convenient subway line team up to push property values higher.
That is the truth. Astoria is just steps from Manhattan with the Astoria El. That is one of the reasons it may be a bit pricier, even though it is seemingly not an affluent area. I find it to be very decent working class neighborhood.
The subway line, and close proximity to Manhattan certainly help. But the real reason rents are skyrocketing in Astoria and Long Island City is because immigrant workers will team up in 1BR and studio apartments, and will do anything to live very close to work. All those taxi garages around Queens Plaza have always played a role in determining the demos of that area. When a landlord figures out that two men are sharing a 1BR, he'll charge $1,200 a month, figuring each resident is paying only $600 each. Here in Forest Hills, you can still find a 1BR for less than $1,200, and you can bet you won't find two men sharing it.
How much shorter is the trip? And how reliable is the service to Astoria?
Whenever a real estate agent tries to rent me an apartment for $1,100 in that dump of a neighborhood, Astoria, telling me that the neighborhood is going upscale, I respond by saying, "You have check cashing stores and internation calling centers popping up on every corner, and you'll never see Starbucks or Barnes and Noble in this neighborhood. Take your $1,100, I can get something better and cheaper in Forest Hills, Rego Park, or Kew Gardens".
Not that I'm the type to sit around reading books and sipping a $5 Caffe Grande, but I'm tired of people sugar coating Astoria.
Uh-oh!!! I'm an Astoria homeowner and it is far from a dump!! By the way we DO have a Starbucks!! - its on the corner of 31st Street and Ditmars Blvd.
Most of the time (but not all the time) a "dump" is such because of the poor socoial skills of people describing it...
No Ron, it's a dump because people use it as one. Along 31st, underneath the "el", it's filthy.
I've been there. It's not nearly as bad as you claim, and even if it were, it's something that could be very amenable to a bit of cooperation between resident, the Sanitation Dept and your local city council person.
That's true under most of the els though. As much as we like riding els, the truth is the street below DOES suffer. Even along the M line in Ridgewood, where the el runs over it's own ROW, and doesn't destroy a street, people always would dump stuff under the el, where the ROW met the streets.
I never understand the concept of dumping whether it be dumping under the el, or on the highway, or vacant lots. The city (and out here in Suffolk, it's the same thing) has "free" garbage collection. Why would anyone drag their coach, or mattress, or whatever and dump it along the railroad, or highway or vacant lots, when all you have to do is put it out in front of your house the night before garbage collection. I don't understand dumping.
In Manayunk, people put their garbage in bags under the R6 Elevated line. The Sanitation trucks pick it up from there.
Maybe that's the answer - set up garbage dropoffs there and run a garbage truck once a day to collect it.
Until we can put the Astoria El under ground as a new subway, tear down the El, and run the new subway to East Elmhurst and LGA....
If it were up to me, I'd build some kind of extension to the 7 line from 103rd or Willets Point to LGA along the GCP. This way, you get subway service to the airport, and won't have as much of a hassle in digging/building through a residential area. There would be opposition, but it would not be as strong as extending the Astoria line through a residential neighborhood. Plus, it's closer to LGA than Ditmars/31st st.
But it's out of the way and would divert some (7) from Main St, one of the busiest stations in the system.
The (N) is a better route to LGA all around. It would require an extension from the edn of the line, not a branch, and no doubling back. And why stop at LGA? It could be the beginning to another badly-needed line serving Northern Queens. It could continue accross the Flushing Bay to College Point and Whitestone, ending at Bay Terrace, neighborhoods that would welcome it.
:-) Andrew
There's been a lot of discussion about that issue. The N extension is the cheapest route; there are some NIMBY issues but probably not the kind that couldn't be bought off. Extensions off the 63rd Street tunnel are possible, but more expensive.
Don't even go there my friend. Those neighborhoods in Northern Queens are suburban-like havens that would oppose subway expansion with ten times the ferocity of Astoria residents opposing N expansion.
Some would. Some wouldn't. In some, a few neighbors would pretend they speak for everybody else.
Don't even go there my friend. Those neighborhoods in Northern Queens are suburban-like havens that would oppose subway expansion with ten times the ferocity of Astoria residents opposing N expansion.
Nnnnn-not so sure about that. Whitestone maybe. But College Point and Bay Terrace are quite urban.
:-) Andrew
tear down the El
Watch it!
Watch what you tell people to watch!
Wanna know some dirty streets?
Go to South Philly, and walk Federal St and Passyunk Ave from 9th to Broad...there is garbage everywhere in that part of South Philly. But regardless, ilove South Philly, and down towards Snyder there are some very nice areas.
How about Philly's South Street as the bars are closing?
:0)
Or during their little Mardi Gras celebration (more like a riot)
Yes, very true.
(But, unlike New Orleans, we did not have the benefit of well-endowed young women going topless on their balconies...)
lol...I knew once Mardis Gras was mentioned, that would be mentioned next....and New Orleans is like that 365 days a year.....
see, join Subtalk, meet dirty old men with minds in the valley, er, gutter...
:0)
lol....
#there is a house in New Orleans...#
LOL
But, since Philly was deemed "the Fattest city in the US", i'm not so sure I wanna see many of the local women without clothes :0)
So Springfield's temporary sugar ban worked?
I'm going to nominate Astoria as the most unnecesarily "ragged" on neighborhood on SubTalk.....Damn that Astoria El! :)
$1,000 for studio just because that unreliable "el" is close by. That's one of the reasons landlords use to charge such high rents. I found a studio in Forest Hills for $150 less. Let's hope I get it.
Forest Hills is very nice, and I hope you do get what you want.
By the way we DO have a Starbucks!! - its on the corner of 31st Street and Ditmars Blvd.
And another on Steinway between Broadway and 31st Ave, which my wife frequents (she works near there.)
:-) Andrew
I used to live on Ditmars and 21st. Where did they put the Starbucks? In place of what store?
I loved certain aspects of Astoria. But I refuse to pay the high rents being charged, when I can find something better and sometimes cheaper, in a tony neighborhood like Forest Hills or Bayside.
I lived in a building just off Ditmars. It was an apartment building. At first, I had no problems. But that eventually changed when my downstairs neighbor died. My landlord decided that it would be better to hire Mexican day workers to fix up the studio for free, in exchange for two months free rent, and $700 a month thereafter. So three Mexicans moved in, and it was Cinco de Mayo seven nights a week. Loud music, and a constant flow of traffic from the apartment day and night. To top it off, I was coincidentally burglarized twice within months.
I live in a Jewish neighborhood, and I'm looking for a new apartment in a Jewish neighborhood. I'm goyim, but I like Jewish neighbors. They're the most quiet neighborhoods.
I used to live on Ditmars and 21st. Where did they put the Starbucks? In place of what store?
That was the Long Island Savings Bank ...
After the merger with Astoria Federal that branch became redundant and AF closed it.
I lived in a building just off Ditmars. It was an apartment building
Across from the school? Is that the one with the laundromat on the first floor? There is also a haircutting place and a deli?
No. It was an apartment building.
I hate to sound racist, but whenever the Mexicans move in the neighborhood goes downhill. I've seen what's happened to Glen Cove. It's also happened to Hicksville and Mineola. Areas that were once desirable struggle to keep business as bodegas move in. Glen Cove does have a Starbucks however, right in the downtown. But Glen Cove was once a nice town, I remember those days, but now it's just so depressing. And I'm starting to see it in Sea Cliff, gosh I hope Glen Cove's "little Mexico" doesn't come here. Perhaps because an element of poverty moves in, and landlords capitalize on that by squeezing more people in.
The only solution would be to increase regulations and fines, for housing people illegally, as overpopulating apartments seems to coincide with places going downhill.
Yeah jewish neighborhoods are nice, but what I really like is asian areas like Flushing and 8th ave Brooklyn. Lots of Roast pork right around the corner! :-)
Theres quite a bit of graffiti in Sunnyside and LIC, too, but it's definitely decreasing (except for the factory near Court Sq, which the owner invites graffiti artists to use).
No offense to anyone in Astoria, but it just never impressed me. For some reason, it always seemed kind of under-developed, at least from the view from the el. Sunnyside seems much more built up.
I'd take Astoria over Burke Avenue in the Bronx (where I live now) any day!
I still wouldn't call Astoria a bad neighborhood either. I think Corona and Jackson Heights are much worse. Especially along the Q58, some of those areas remind me of Mexico.
Yeah. Those neighborhoods are totally Mexican. That's where I go to get my Lucha Libre magazines and tacos.
I can also smell the food while riding the 7 train. I don't mind the smell though, but my favorite food smell is still chinese food. And I love, love, love my roast pork.
And for the best Roast Pork on Long Island, it's Szechuan express in Greenvale.
LI Bus: Take N20 or N27 to Glen Cove Rd and Northern Blvd
LIRR: Take the blue moon train to Greenvale and walk south down Glen Cove Rd
Recommended dishes: Roast Pork Lo Mein, Roast Pork Fried Rice, Roast Pork w/Bok Choy
Always remember to try a delicious cup of Jasmine tea...
You've been down that road before. Should I send you an application form for the Aryan Brotherhood? Or perhaps the KKK?
Sure. Here's some feedback the the TA's own "Detour-List of Subway Detours Mon, Aug 12 to Sun, Aug 18".
And I quote, "M, trains run every 24 minutes between Metropolitan and 9th Av. Weekdays, 9:25am-2:45pm Mon-Fri, until Aug 16".
I love the M line with all my heart. As a former Ridgewood resident, I did most of my railfanning on that line. The M is a slow line. But Middle Village is a nice area. I'm probably going to move there by October 1.
I used to live in Ridgewood up until about 10 years ago, near the Forest Ave station. You are near both the M and L lines in Ridgewood. The neighborhood is safe. Actually, the neighborhood was never really bad, but seemed more rundown 10 years ago when I left. It has actually improved since then I feel. In the last 4-5 years it seems a lot of people have come in and fixed up the buildings, not that they were ever bad, but I feel about 10 years ago the neighborhood could have went either way, meaning the buildings were starting to show signs of needing repair, and graffiti seemed to be everywhere. It's cleaned up quite nicely. Sure it's not the Ridgewood of the 50's (when my grandmother lived there) and earlier, but it's a decent neighborhood.
As for Middle Village, it's a great neighborhood, more pricey than Ridgewood, but there is no subway service there, unless you take a bus to the Metropolitan Ave station for the M.
I just got back from apartment hunting a few minutes ago. When I got to the real estate office, I noticed about a dozen giant photos of Ridgewood that were taken in the early 1900's. In addition, there were photos of the World's Fair from 1964. The Ridgewood photos reminded me of what a great place Ridgewood must've been back then.
I think I found a nice studio. It's in Rego Park, just eight-tenth's of a mile from Continental, and half a mile from 63rd Drive. Q 23 bus stops on the corner. I'm gonna grab it.
Sick Passenger. As for your apartment hunt, I wish you luck. If I were you, I'd purchase the Times Newsweekly(formerly the Ridgewood Times) every week. I'd also go the some of the many area churches and pick up a parish bulletin. They sometimes have good apartment listings. That's one of my tricks. I once found a 2BR in Astoria for $1,100 by picking up a church bulletin. The lady knew she was renting under market value because she just wanted "nice people" in her apartment. The only reason I have been going to real estate agents, is that I want to live in an apartment building right now, and they have the best apartment building offerings.
E-mail me if you want to talk about this. I can recommend some decent agencies in Middle Village.
Third pull-apart occurred the #3 line just a short while ago. 6397 was yesterday?
This is NOT funny...
Redbirds pressed into emergency service (STOP THE REEFING)...
r-142's are not on the #3 first of all. Second there arent enough red birds left/too many r-142's to pull them all from service. Saw all many r-142's on the 5 this morning.
[r-142's are not on the #3 first of all. Second there arent enough red birds left/too many r-142's to pull them all from service. Saw all many r-142's on the 5 this morning.]
That is correct, BUT R-62's are being disbusrt throughout the lines that had R-142's for coverage. So far as I have heard the #3 line is SHUTDOWN due to the car shortage.
Also, Redbirds that were in storage are currently being brought out to handle this emergency situation and do coverage on the #2 line...more details to come...stay tuned!
Isn't it easier to just widen the tunnels and shave the platforms and then run BMT/IND cars instead?
Now that's funny :)
That's not as funny as it first seems. I only learned this a few months ago here, but except for the ends of the platforms, you could run BMT/IND sized cars on:
The Lexington Line north of Grand Central to the Bronx
The 1/2/3 line south of Times Square
The 7 line in Queens
The Brooklyn IRT east of Atlantic Ave
The only thing stopping being able to run the IRT with the B Division trains are:
The original subway (north of Times Square-West Side and south of Grand Central East Side)
The Steinway Tubes (the 7 line in Manhattan)
I'm not sure about the Clark St tunnel or the 4/5 tunnel (I think they can only run IRT sized cars.)
It seemed to me that the IRT trains barely fit in the curves around Park Place, but I don't know that for sure. Any tunnels that can't fit wider trains never will though. Can you imagine how many thousands of columns they'd have to move?
Can you imagine how many thousands of columns they'd have to move?
Yeah? And how much would that cost? About $50m per mile? So $1bn is 20 miles? How much did they just put in the highway funding for this year? $55 billion?
AEM7
all the dual system lines were built to the Triboro specs[BMT/IND tunnel clearances =10 foot wide cars,60-67 foot long]The Clark st tunnel CAN carry the larger car sets,as well as the Eastern Parkway subway[both branches].lower 7th av,upper Lexington ave,all EL's [except the upper BROADWAY and WPR line between 149/3av and 180 st].In fact,there was a recent study concerning the conversion of the upper LEX express tunnels to accomendate BMT/IND CARS,in light of the long term SECOND AVE subway problem.... but it was cancled....
AFAIK the Joralemon St. tunnel was built to IRT clearances. Not sure about the Clark St. tunnel either, but seeing as how it was a part of the Dual Contracts, it may have BMT clearances.
Can a 60 footer make the curve from Park Pl to Chambers going North? I'm certain a 75 footer can't do it. {This is assuming there is adequate width and the platform clearances weren't a problem.}
To save time they can just mount a circular saw with a masonry blade on the front of each train so it can saw the platforms as it pulls into the stations. :)
Mark
All Dual Contracts lines were built to BMT specifications.
The Original Contract One segment is another story.
Deja vu all over again.
Sounds a lot like Jamaica Yard circa 1966, when condemned BMT standards were pulled off the scrapline and sent back to revenue service. Ripple effect...
Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are R-142s still on the road at this moment. Not to say some sets haven't been pulled... This may still be possible. I'd be seriously evaluating the cars that have been sitting in dead stoarage for the last year, especially if it was Cars 6396-6400 that had the second pull apart....
Perhaps 6361-6410 and 6481-6500 should be checked out by qualified personnel. I thought I noticed someone (Bombardier Tech?) looking over cars at Unionport after you dropped me off...
-Stef
In the midst of any problems that might be currently occurring, another 5 Car Set of R-142s is in service. 7006-10 (new) are currently operating with 6861-65.
-Stef
No problem. However, I got this 'scoop' from one of your brethren...so he SHOULD know what he's talking about.
Hey, Stef. Do you think if NYCT gets SO desparate for cars they'll ask a certain museum to 'borrow' a certain Redbird for a return to revenue service? Just kidding of course....;-) (certainly after last night's episode!!)
They can have our Redbird if they'd work on her.... Last night's episode was one to remember.
-Stef
Last night's episode was one to remember.
Do I really want to ask why?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's nothing really to worry about, it was just one of those Kodak Moments....
-Stef
"Last night's episode was one to remember."
What happened?
Somehow I suspect they're all hiding in the corner waiting for Unca Sparky to take a butt break and ain't gonna tell. Heh.
?????????????? CLUELESS
I don't think they want to describe it publicly lest "supervision" break out the buggy whip. :)
Uh, all I can say at this point was that we had something akin to an unannounced 'G.O'...
I just posted, having heard that Dave Sr and Jr joined, that that was a wonderous thing. You mean something ELSE happened? Like perhaps an extension of the right of way down a particular street? :)
Unca Sparky was no where to be found, actually. It was up to the Crew to run the show.
-Stef
AWOL, eh? Did ya write him up? Heh.
A father-son duo became members of BERA. They are currently NYCT employees, a T/O and a C/R. Dave Foster Sr. was giving the younger lad some tips on operating Redbirds! Heh. He'll make a fine T/O. Sr. also got to operate 6688 for the first time in quite some time. 3/4 Ton Crew members also supervised on operating of the R-17, as well as an elderly streetcar from Brooklyn. It was nice to meet them. All went well....
-Stef
KEWL! I somehow was under the impression from the "one to remember" advertising that someone had managed to extend the right of way. Heh.
I never met "Senior" but "junior" is a class act. The two of them together ought to go a LONG way in keeping BMTman on the leash. :)
What did Jr. think of 6688's door control levers?
You'll have to ask him. He usually shows up here late at night. I can tell ya THIS much though from when we rode with him on da boids last Kissmoose, the cabs are not at ALL the same as I remembered with so many changes made to them. I'm sure he had one of those "wow" moments in 6688. :)
You can say it was one of those Wow moments. I also couldn't help but make anouncements.
Heh. Just think of it as taking a shower - hot water on first, cold next, do the opposite closing down. Best part of 6688 is you only have to look ONE way and you're all closed up with nowhere to go. But at least you got to see the kind of cabs *I* was used to. Now if only they could have given you a run on 1689, *MY* kinda car. It'd show you why I was sitting there in hysterics when I saw what you guys pack these days. We didn't need no steenking microphone wrapped around *OUR* necks, We'd just drop the sash, point the flare gun out the window, pull the trigger and hope someone saw the fireworks in the sky and sent a rescue train. You guys have it *SO* easy. :)
He was your typical new-bee ... dumped it a couple of times, but he was a quick learner. The car got put back in the barn none the worse for ware.
Because 6688 didn't get a full-rebuild -- just a paint job. So the door controls are the original w/levers. Dave, Jr. has only been on da job for the last couple of years and da birds he encountered on the road have/had the new door controls which were converted to the current 'Vapor' door controls (funky looking, fat key).
Doug
I only know how to open doors with a Vapor Key. The old Door control looked strange to me.
We gotta get you out to HeyPaul's apartment so you can have a proper game of triggers and bottlecaps. :)
Did I forget to mention that we tried to make PBD feel at home? When the car doors on my beloved 6688 closed, it went BING BONG! He's on an R-62A now.
Those dirty rotten scoundrels blessed the R-17 Cab!!!! Such blasphemy....
-Stef
Heh. Well, I'm sure you know how I feel about IRT cars going "bing flipping bong" ... that was what 42's and up did and it got irritating quickly (unless the old continuous loop tape in the first generation of them bound up like a cheap 8 track and went "Bwwwwing-bwwwong" and then stuck mid bong only to take off a second later like Rapmaster Deejay scratchin' ... but on an IRT car? HERESY I say, just like vapor keys. The ONLY vapors we passed in the cab in MY day were LUNCH.
And NO bing bongs. (nor A/C) Wimps. :)
Sorry to disappoint you, but the R-42s never had door chimes. R-44s and up do.
How many of you caught the gaffe in Crocodile Dundee II with the dubbed-in door chimes on that A train of R-38s? At least Hoyt-Schermerhorn played itself.
I beg your chardone ... yes indeed they did ... dunno what the hades they did int he first incarnation - my guess is a tape loop. They'd BWWwwwwwwiiing ...... bwwwwwong. But yessiree, they sure did. I worked a few even. :)
I rode on the R-42s when they were brand new on the Canarsie, and did not hear any chimes. Even that R-42 N train which SMOKED along 4th Ave. in 1971 didn't have them. I'm not here to argue, though. All I'm going to say is I don't remember any door chimes on the R-42s and leave it at that.
Didn't mean it to be a challenge ... (grin)
YO TRAIN DUDE! It's caught in my zipper! :)
Don't tell me they've added chimes to 6688....
Heresy, sir! Bite that ... ummm ... whatever appendage you're hitting the keyboard with. :)
Stef----was "Last Night" because you had to wait until late to operate a RT car because of the peak/off peak deal with the local electric company ?
Yes, in a nut shell. We wait until after a certain hour to operate an RT Car - any RT Car, so as not to make the power bill skyrocket.
-Stef
Also wmated to get as much work out of them as possible < G >
They are experts at sanding Bondo now < G >
That's right. I thought Doug was slacking off a bit entertaining them. Just kidding!
-Stef
That'll be MOST useful when they get back to their regular jobs. Heh. No more putting their key through the wall. :)
LOL!
-Stef
Thanks for the kind words. I really enjoyed my visit to BERA and I thank all of you for showing me and SR around. Doug, Stef, and Thurston did a great job in giving us a tour and teaching me how to operator a Trolley and a R17. SR's main highlight was operating the Trolley and giving me T/O tips.
We really had a great time and I hope to do it again.
Redbirds pressed into emergency service (STOP THE REEFING)...
Stop the reefing, nothing!
GRAB YOUR FISHING POLES AND SCUBA GEAR!!!
Some brilliant person at the MTA decided to scrap all the Redbirds before the 142s were proven to be working. I sure hope they regret their decision.
Just out of curiousity, are these pull-aparts limited to the Bombardier R-142's, or they happening to both the Bombardier and Kawasaki units? (I always forget which one is the R-142 and the R-142A.)
And what's wrong with a little reefer, anyway?? Oh, nevermind...
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Reefer" is ok, "reefing" is bad.
Bombardier are 6xxx, Kawasaki are 7xxx IIRC.
Is it me, or has our train manufacturers FORGOTTEN how to do basic things in the pursuit of technology. It's ok for the automated train annoucements to go on the fritz because it's new technology to use. Train couplers and shock absorbers are BASIC elements of a train and should not be screwed up after many years of building trains.
Don't be fooled: EVERY manufacturer is having trouble with their American equipment. LIRR's diesels spontaneously combust, LIRR's bi-levels are being repaired for cracks that came shortly after delivery and Bombardier's market share is creating havoc in mass and intercity transport. Every manufacturer is suffering, but Bombardier is present in so many markets that every other failure ends up on a Bombardier product.
Are the Europeans going through this drama too?
Siemens seems to be holding up well. At least there haven't been any pull-aparts to date on any light rail trains in Denver.
The problems Acela Express trainsets have been having remind me of a problem we've had with the new (well, the first units were delivered in 1998) C20 subway stock here in Stockholm. Apparently something was mounted on the trucks to prevent objects on the tracks (including humans) from ending up in the trucks, and the mounting of these devices caused cracks to develop in the trucks. I was speaking with a subway mechanic just this past Sunday who said that some of the cracks were the width of two fingers.
Adtranz was the original supplier, but the most recent cars delivered have been marked -- yep -- Bombardier. (They bought Adtranz.)
Mvh Tim
There are not cracks yet to be found in Adtranz R142 trucks...I was present during the ultrasound scans of the metal and welds. The pullapart of R142s is due to a missing or rusted out pin
Rusted pin in a new new subway car?
That may be a shop floor rumor...I had assumed the pin was solid steel but now I hear it is a 'roll pin.' I was too busy to get a copy of the assembly drawings. The pin is not under any stress...what it does is to prevent the coupler sleeve from rotating just like a clevis pin or safety wire. I have NOT seen the roll pin...it may be made of blued steel. IF its outside edges corroded and became weak or IF the pin was not long enough, the coupler sleeve as we now know will rotate over a period of time and when it falls out...pullapart. A maintainance supervisor was complaining of the fine thin threading on the assembly...guy should have known better...such threads are stronger and wear resistant...Grade 8 hardware is usually SAE 'fine' for a reason....coarse I have not seen in my electromechanical work. CI Peter
fine thin threading ... such threads are stronger and wear resistant ... Grade 8 hardware is usually SAE 'fine' for a reason
Interesting... thanks for confirming what I always believed but never really knew for a fact.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hardware 101: markings on bolts.
Cheap hardware has no mark...it can be SAE grade 1 or of indeterminate stregnth. One dot or star...grade three. Three dots or stars...grade five. Five dots or stars...grade eight. The higher the grade, the higher the tensile strength AND the more brittle it is.
A tractor implement under stress should not have grade one...bolts can stretch and seperate. Grade three is a compromise...grade eight is hardened steel and under vibration will eat out threads of an assembly and may snap...grade eight is a pisser to remove a broken stud because your ordinary HSS drill bits will wear out before a hole is started for a 'easy out' and you must use Cobalt Steel bits. The aircraft industry had a rude awakening...hardened bolts in aircraft turbine assemblies turned out to be bootleg mush despite certification. As for nutz, well, not too many are marked as the stress upon them is less than a bolt. To the Kommander of German Assault forces upon the French city of Bastogne from tne Allied Commander of defending forces: 'NUTS.' CI Peter
Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...Littering and...
-Hank :)
Considering the cars are not joined until they are delivered to the yard, and the last time this happened we were told of missing shear pins, I'd say this is more an issue of the guy making the connections IN THE YARD not doing his job right, and his supervisor not checking the train.
-Hank
BOMBardier is in a heap of trouble. The MTA never should've scrapped the redbirds so soon. Even LI Bus has some Gilligs around just in case.
Why weren't all of the R142s recalled back after the 1st pull apart?
Why did 3 pull aparts happen? They should be recalled, remanufactured and remodified by Alstom. MTA'S mistake of reefing so many Redbirds so soon. I knew this would bite them in the a$$.
Bombardier cars simply suck. And go figure-LIRR's getting Bombardier M-7. Boy is that LIRR going to hell.
And the R62A'S On the 7 are not much better brake and go brake and go.
Those cars could give a straphanger whiplash. They're very unsafe to ride. I rode 2111 this morning-about 10 jolt n go's from 52 St-QBP.
Redbirds Rule! Bombardier is pure junk. Give me a Redbird over this silver Bombardier junk anyday!
Kawasaki R142A's now that's a different issue. At least those cars are running with little problems. Those are fine in my opinion. Any other opinions?
#9242 4 Lexington Ave Express
Alstom is out of the picture. H2C coupler manufactured by WabCo for Bombardier R142 and Kawsasaki R142A. Don't get yor feathers fluffed out in a frenzy...problem lies strictly with Bombardier and keeps us NYCTA employees gainfully employed. Recalled and remanufactured...this is not the Federal highway and safety Administration. We're talking international...like war with Canada!
There is no recall...and where did the problem come from??? Plattsburgh, New York. So get your flight suit on cuz we're gonna take our A24s on a mission...two tonnes of ordnance and two thousand rounds of fifty/five hundred rounds of 20mm...teach them guyz a lesson NOT to sell TA a 'bill of goods.' Plaster Plattsburgh flatter than a pancake.
I thought CI Peter (or someone) said the pins in question are installed when the cars are assembled in sets. Who exactly does that?
Bombbardier people or TA Rangers?
Bombajunkers of course. To couple a pair of R142s...well it is late...let us do Linkbar 101. The linkbar is a cast steel I-beam with channels to flow Brake Pipe and Brake Cylinder air. It is almost three feet in legnth...and is threaded at both ends to receive four inch threaded rods. Pick up the assembly on a hydraulic platform, slide one end into the trucks fitting and assemble per instruction sequence. move the other car closer and assemble per instruction sequence. Screw in your hoses, mate your Canon plugs and voila. problem is that WE do not have detailed info...just saw the mechanical diagram today...and each and every trainset must be inspected in a new process to determine whether that pin is in place in every coupling and linkbar. The Rangers fly the White Eagle at max warp to Zahadoom...Bombajunkers fly R142s straight into the toilet. Hard to believe that September 17th is just a few weeks away...and most of the Sept. 17th Car inspector class is reunited at the 239th 'junior barn.' harder to believe that I LEFT EMPLOYMENT of twentyone years emptyhanded to start anew. CI peter
That answered my question. Since the "experts" from Bombajunkers do it, no wonder there are pull-aparts. Since there have been no reported pull-aparts on the rice-burners, seems the TA and Amtrak have something in common - equipment that Bombajunkers built and have problems that surface months after delivery - when the equipment is on the road.
As to the 142A's, the smart thinking is to have the TA Rangers fully inspect the linkbars, right after Bombajunkers have made up the sets.
If it was the TA rangers, we'd see problems on the R142A as well and probably the R143 too.
MTA'S mistake of reefing so many Redbirds so soon. I knew this would bite them in the a$$.
Just one small problem... There was no place to keep that many redbirds. They only got so many siding tracks, yards, and stuff, and with ne equipment coming onto the property, something had to go.
Too bad they could not park them out in New Jersey, somewhere, but they would have chared the MTA rent for their track space. So....
Go Fish
They could have done some "track M" layups out on the els like they did years ago before the graffiti scourge ... there'd be room. OK, maybe they'll get tagged out there, but they'd still be a welcome relief if there's nothing else to run. :)
There's one underground express track that isn't used normally, on the 1 from 96th to 145th (except through 125th). And the 4 could easily give up its 138th bypass, leaving that express track clear. For the time being, the SB express track from south of 14th to north of Chambers isn't used except by an occasional 2 that's supposed to be on the local track to begin with.
With a bit more effort, trains could be stored on the unused underground B Division tracks: the F express tracks in Brooklyn north of Church, the 6th Avenue express tracks between W4 and 34th, the connector from 57/7 to 63rd, the Hillside express tracks (I never figured out if the E uses them, but it certainly doesn't need to), the J/M/Z "express" tracks between Essex and Canal (before the realignment), and probably more. Of course, that would severely limit the ability to reroute trains when things go wrong, and GO's would get very messy, but it is possible.
Another (expensive) solution would be to simply run more late night service. Any train that's on the road isn't in a yard.
Do none of the yards have any extra space at night?
I was actually referring to things like 231st Street straight down to Dyckman on the Broadway el, the unused center track on the Jerome, the White Plains and other els ... they used to lay up trains on those tracks even when they were used in rush hour, before transistors. :)
There's room ... plenty of it. Trains used to be laid up on the el on the Brighton line and others too. They're no longer used because cars would get tagged up there. But the SPACE exists ... and is no longer used, thus available.
I know. I was specifically suggesting unused underground trackage to avoid (or at least reduce) the graffiti problem.
That they ain't got, though during non-"snowbird" duty, they COULD lay some up there. One thing I learned years ago with the TA is that there's PLENTY of places to hide things. :)
Does it really matter if trains headed for the scrapper (if nothing goes wrong) get tagged?
Well you see ... that's exactly MY attitude. It's probably a psychological thing on the part of the TA though that if ANY trains get tagged, they don't run so by inference, it would have to apply to a "junk fleet" as well. "Quality of life" issue. Of course, a severe shortage of running trains somehow wouldn't be.
Don't mind me, I'm from an era on the subways where trains were *so* tagged, you couldn't see out the windows nor could you actually READ any of the tags because they'd been overwritten so many times. But that didn't bother me half as much as not being able to get to work or have to pass up 4-5 trains because there was no room to get *in* one, then see 4-5 more go through the station empty, honking their way through because one of the cars had burst into flames.
Folks don't seem to realize sometimes how *GOOD* things are lately.
Burst into flames? A hot box, perhaps?
Grease fires. :)
if ANY trains get tagged, they don't run so by inference
Send them to Rome! The Line B trains were so tagged last time they were almost as bad as the NYC cars you described - they still ran poerfectly and the aircon worked :D
Yeah, the big stimata in NYC was when the trains were all tagged up, nothing else worked either. So folks came to associate perennially breaking down hot cars and the graffiti as one and the same. See one, the other implied. As a result, the TA got "mental" about it. :)
Now nothing works anyway! :P Moooooooooooooooooo!
Heh. Actually, despite all the various whinings, I don't hear stories anymore of people putting a token in the hole one day and getting to their destination a few days later. NYCTA once ran about as well as the train to Alice Springs. :)
YES!!!! REDBIRDS ON THE 2 AND 5!!!! IM HAPPY ABOUT THAT!!!!
Pipedream...you guyz sniffing Glyptol? But then...we get a Redbird pair to inspect in the afternoon on 7 to 3 shift! Puzzle pieces coming together...R142 pullapart on #2...morning yard scramble...afternoon inspection of worthless Redbird pair. NUTZ
Don't let it get to ya ... it's my understanding that the "M" can purchase number 4000/zero rubber bands, just big enough to stretch around all ten cars, hold'em together real nice. But gotta be careful stretching them out, they've got a hell of a kick when they go snap. :)
Okay Doug, I don't have the time or patience to read every post here so forgive me if this question has been asked or answered before. I know of one other pull-apart on 7/1 at 138th St. Where was the 3rd?
TD, my bad -- this IS the SECOND pull-apart. I'm just the messenger here with this info, so forgive me for that error.
BTW, I have NOW been told that 6 sets of R-142s had been removed from service...obviously the rest of the BOMBfleet is rolling (I rode one this afternoon).
Doug
If that is the case, I wonder if the ones removed are those that have been sitting around in dead storage for the last 12 months? Just food for thought. This seems to be a problem with R-142s assigned to the 5, and not with those on the deuce. First it was 6401-05, then 6396-6400 came apart. One has to wonder.... Maybe I'm seeing things.
-Stef
6401-05? 6396-6400? Those are former R16 numbers. Does the curse live?
Yeah! I hadn't seen the second divorced R-142 set, but one would wonder if 6398 is trying to gain status as a single unit.
-Stef
Makes you wonder about 6688, too.
Yep. That worries me too. It too, may want independent status. It's a free for all!!!
-Stef
Uh-ohhhhhhhhhhh. Next thing you know, 6321 may get into the act.:)
wait a minute !! ""this IS the SECOND pull-apart. "".........??
scrap em !
And while they're at it, scrap the R-62's also. Those pieces of S$*% just seem to keep multiplying on the "7". SAVE THE REDBIRDS!
i do agree with you on one thing the UGLY look they have on the front
i never did like the r-40 & later "roundtop" "bald-headed" design ....
the original r -32-38 faces looked more traditional ........
i would settle with reservation if the r-62 with a rail-fan-window was
also included with the new r-62...i guess C type ........
the redbird design still looks modern to me. if they were in stainless stell like da' r-32-38s it would B the real deal !!
( my opinion ) ..............lol !!
i do like the look of the redbirds on the # 7 !!!! classic !!!!
well......well......well.... whell.............lol !!
"Redbirds pressed into emergency service (STOP THE REEFING)..."
This could not have been BETTER SAID !!
how about dat' folkz !! your side bodidied spot rusted aged museum trains specials ( GOOD OLD U.S.A. BUILT REDBIRDS ) ............etc..
are more reliable at THE END OF THIER LIFE than the brand new
"import junk beer can special(s)...
man oh man this is looking good 4 my trip this mid setember !!
Redbirds pressed into emergency service (STOP THE REEFING)...
reeef da R-142s BRING BACK THE LOW Vs !! woooooooooooo
thankz !!
No Redbirds available anymore for emergency service....heinekens chucked out for 'Genny Red.'
You ARE such an ass!
Peace.
ANDEE
my dear madam please chill out on your PMS ....
......he he .......lol !!
by the way subtalkers we just saw the pasadena gold line second delivery of the SIEMENS P 2000 car # 239
( her sister was delivered by flatbed last night ) car # 238 !! What a wonderful sight 2 see in person ..!!!
brand new rolling stock on new tracks !!! man oh man !!! shot about 100 digital stills !!
too bad my dear madam you missed this one !!! .............he he he...........lol !!
>>>...second delivery of the SIEMENS P 2000 car # 239 <<<
What's the big deal? Just more foreign built, no railfan window, styrofoam junkers....dey r a breakin' down already!!!
hehehe...lol!!!
Peace,
ANDEE
i get to ride in the cab anytime i want !! ................LAST TAG !! .............hehehe...lol!!!
i am the photographer for the MTA here in los angeles county california !! Whats your gig toots ?? ..............eh ??
are you suffering from PMS again ?? .............& this is a brand new system not an old infrastructure tearing the
broken down r-142s !! he he he he he he .........lol lol lol lol !!
md 40 / 40 anyone ?? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>!
>>>i am the photographer for the MTA here in los angeles county california !!<<<
GEE... that's funny... I just got off the phone with the LAMTA and they never heard of you.
Care to pleasure us with more lies?
Peace,
ANDEE
what number did you call ?? & the name of who you called?
now if you insist you can call bob johnson at the long beach blue
line operations yards & dont get upset if he is very fond of me !!
..WOW just think of it !! You called long distance for me ?....??
do you want bob johnsons phone number subwaysurf ?? ...eh ?
that cn be done if you insist !! .........................lol !!!
also mr kieth jackson my instructor on rail / yard safety ,
i was issued an official LAMTA vest / i.d badge !!!
wooopeee!! ...........let me know when U want 2 call them !!
any plans on coming to southern califoraia soon ??
@ we could arrange a tour of the long beach blue line yard if you
request !! ................thankz .........
Once the "Redbirds" are gone, they're will be no decent railfan windows on the IRT division anymore. At best you'll have a smear-o-vision railfan window.
#3 West End Jeff
Much as I'll miss the Redbirds, the R-62A singles (which will probably all be on the 7 by then) will still have full-fledged railfan windows, and the other R-62A's and R-62's will still have an unsmeared view through the small window into the cab (unless the T/O's blocked it with his coat or bag).
You are correct, there is no "smear-o-vision" on the R-62/62As.
Peace,
ANDEE
--You are correct, there is no "smear-o-vision" on the R-62/62As. --
What's smear-o-vision?
Horrible plastic sheets on the cab door glass that turns the foamer view into a cheapa$$ Radio Shack light show. ;)
Doesn't the cab glass on the new tech trains contain things in the glass, instead of on it?
Yeah, I suppose they could groove the glass too. Having done the cab thing myself, dark is a GOOD thing. But even when I worked the subway, I did appreciate seeing where I was and where I was going from the center glass too ...
how much foam do you smoke ?
with a K
OBVIOUSLY much less than YOU......
Peace,
ANDEE
sorry madam ! I do not smoke or drink !!.........or drugs either !!
i know this this is a dissapointment 2 U .......lol !!
Peggy asked me to post this:
On Sunday, 10/6/02 she will host a field trip to complement her earlier tour of the 1 Line in Manhattan and Bronx. This tour will start at Penn Station at 9am--meet in front of McDonalds. This tour will cover stations from Penn to New Lots and Flatbush as well as the rebuilt Section in Manhattan. We will leave the system at South Ferry to cover the N/R to City Hall to see Cortlandt BMT. We will return to the IRT at South Ferry and cover Borough Hall Complex, Hoyt, Nevins, Atlantic/Pacific, Franklin, Eastern Parkway, Church, Flatbush on the 2 as well as Utica, Junius, New Lots on the 3.(The order depends on which train arrives first when the tour leaves Franklin.)
If time permits, on return the tour will change to the F aand explore Roosevelt Island including the tramway.
Cost- Free. Bring fun pass , unlimioted oir regular MetroCard.
Manhattan Stations North of WTC will not be covered as they were on the previous tour.
Please e-mail peggy at peggy-darlingtpn@mindspring.com. Tour will run rainm or shine,m hot or cold.
I wish I coiuld be there :(
Simon
Swindon UK
I'm coming out the following week. That's OK; plans are shaping up for a trip to Shoreline on 10/13 and some serious railfanning on the 14th.
Or was that train (after 10 am) supposed to be the <5> that was supposed to go to 238 but was changed to 180?
Normally, the 1 doesn't have any free crossunders between Dyckman and 242nd -- it doesn't even have S/A's on the NB entrances, so there isn't even anyone to beg. That's not a big deal generally, since Dyckman and 242nd aren't terribly far apart (unless the bridge is open).
But what's happening on weekends these days? A recurring weekend GO has the line shut down and replaced with bus service between 215th and 242nd. Is anyone on the NB platform distributing transfers to those who need them? If not, passengers who miss their stops (or are railfanning north of Dyckman) have to pay again just to turn around.
It is a free shuttle bus.
That doesn't help the railfans railfaning north of Dyckman who don't have unlimited metrocards. They want to crossunder at 215 St, not go for a ride on a bus that will still force them to pay a fare to get onto a sb train at 215 St.
Nobody said life was fair. You have two choices; get off a Dyckman or pay $1.50. Can you justify paying someone from stations to hand out transfers to the few people who missed their stop. (PAY ATTENTION) or to people who want to railfan. I know give them out to everybody so that once downstairs they can pass them off to SB passengers who would then ride for free.
The reason I asked is that, as a general rule, there are no "dead ends" in the subway system -- from any point within fare control, it's possible to get anywhere else in the system without paying another fare. The one exception, IINM, is the SB platform at Broad Street when the M isn't running through.
It's not just railfans and people who miss their stops. Someone who had to be in the Bronx at a specific time might realize at 215th that he wasn't going to make it in time thanks to the GO. People may suddenly abandon their travel plans because of a GO, and it would be nice to not penalize them an additional fare.
Yes, I do think one of the platform C/R's should be authorized to hand out transfers to people who need them.
"The reason I asked is that, as a general rule, there are no "dead ends" in the subway system"
A very nice feature for rail fans. I seem to remember (though maybe I'm wrong) that 145th/Lenox was a dead end before 148th was built. Also, Newark on the PATH was a dead end the last time I was there (quite a few years ago).
Yes, Newark on PATH is still a deadend and it is very annoying. The only consolation is that the ride from Harrison to Newark is free if you get on at Harrison. So if you park your car in Harrison (I don't know how long until it gets stolen) and ride PATH to Newark, you can get off, walk back to Harrison, and ride again for for free. Repeat as much as nessessary.
---BMdoobieW
It was, technically, but were passengers chased off trains before relays then as they are now? In all of these cases, if you manage to stay on a relaying train (just make sure it's actually relaying and going back into service), you're all set -- nowadays that's pretty difficult, but before 1968 I thought it was simply a matter of not bothering to get off at 145th.
You are correct about Newark. Outbound trains into Newark stop outside fare control, so presumably passengers wouldn't be allowed to ride through the relay (or else there'd be an easy way to get free rides from Newark). Caught me by surprise my first time there.
Aren't Both 145th/Lenox and 148th are still dead ends if you happen to arrive on the last 3 train of the day? Are people who linger in those stations after 11:30 PM or so asked to leave?
RTO does not distribute transfers that job belongs to stations. I am sure Stef would love to stand on the NB plat at 215 and hand out transfers in the 90+ heat.
Hell no! I do not want to bake.
-Stef
Stop lying Stef, at 215? You can watch them load Naporano's barge if you have nothing better to do.
And sell maps to the motion picture stars homes on Nagle Ave. Whatever happened to "TWU pride in Ontapanoorship?" :)
I was there on July 31st. I din't get to see the barge of deadbirds depart, but I bid farewell to a bunch of SMEE trucks taking the voyage to NJ.
-Stef
I know give them out to everybody so that once downstairs they can pass them off to SB passengers who would then ride for free.
Hey, that's not a bad idea. You shouldn't post such things here. Gives people bad ideas. Muh ha hah ha ha ha ha ha.
Well, duh. I would think anyone out railfanning would have the presence of mind to invest, at the very least, in a one-day unlimited pass, which, at $4.00 is less than the price of three individual fares.
And what if the "day" of railfanning isn't beginning until 9:30pm and won't last more than two hours? (I often railfan a lot longer than that on one fare.) I'll be railfanning again the next day, but the Fun Pass won't be valid then.
Don't assume your style of railfanning is the same as everyone else's.
I didn't intend to sound flippant. I just assumed that anyone living in New York and is a regular subway rider would use an unlimited pass, whether daily, weekly, or monthly.
Absolutely not. Unlimiteds aren't even worth it for five-day-per-week commuters if they don't make any other subway/bus trips, and many of us don't even use the subway that often. On average, I go through about one $15 pay-per-ride card and one Fun Pass per month. I've spent $125.50 on transit in the past six months.
We all know how terrible traffic is in midtown, and transit can't really be expanded much more.
Moses proposed the Mid-manhattan expressway along 30th street, and it would be built elevated, but run through new office buildings built on top of them (sort of like the High Line runs through some buildings in Chelsea). This would've taken all the commercial traffic off the streets, and over them...improving flow between the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown tunnels.
I don't drive, but I dont think this project would've been overly harmful to the city.
Thoughts??
Not that 30th street is the most appealing neighborhood in the first place, I suspect that this would have been detrimental on at least two accounts.
First, there would have to be one heck of a structure to carry truck traffic over street and through buildings. While it can be done (Park Avenue through and around Grand Central), it's ugly and makes the immediate vicinity less pedestrian friendly.
Second, those two crossings (Midtown and Lincoln tunnels) are congested enough already. The existence of traffic going across Manhattan serves to divert people around the city rather than through it. While the Cross Bronx and Staten Island Expressways are no picnic, they are much better suited for heavy truck traffic than the Lincoln Tunnel helix or the LIE approach to the Midtown tunnel.
CG
A deep underground expressway, beneath all of the subway lines and running across 37th or 38th Streets to connect the Lincoln Tunnel with the Queens Midtown and had no exits in Manhattan would help the traffic situation by getting all of the Long Island/New Jersey thru traffic off the cross streets.
An elevated expressway with exit and entrance ramps to the tunnels and West Side Highway/FDR Drive and around Fifth Ave., as originally proposed by Moses, would be an abomination. You might as well just put the Great Wall of China across the middle of Manhattan for the effect it would have, even if the roadway was run through buildings (walking anywhere near it on one of the avenues where it would be exposed during your average 5 p.m. Friday traffic jam would be a smog-fest, just for starters).
A deep underground expressway, beneath all of the subway lines and running across 37th or 38th Streets to connect the Lincoln Tunnel with the Queens Midtown and had no exits in Manhattan would help the traffic situation by getting all of the Long Island/New Jersey thru traffic off the cross streets.
However, it would have completely overwhelmed the two tunnels and the infrastructure on Long Island and in New Jersey. It would have also been tremendously expensive.
"…However, it would have completely overwhelmed the two tunnels and the infrastructure on Long Island and in New Jersey. It would have also been tremendously expensive."
Would it be difficult currently to chunnel a tunnel connecting the Queens-Midtown and Lincoln
Exits ramp would be needed tho, because thats part of the main reasons for the tunnels (getting in/out of Manhattan) Could leave the current exit ramp.
As for the tunnel between the two, before the exits a similar set up like the 63rd Street connector section (nr Queens Plaza), where each has two roads that drop down a level and continues as a tunnel.
I had thought about an elevated connection following 37th and 38th Streets. Only two traffic lanes in each direction, (East on 37th West on 38th) The Structure would be enclosed in a glass (plexiglass?) structure, with a vent system that would duct exhaust to the rivers. You could exit from the tunnels to Manhattan streets as you do now, or you could get on this new connector, and be ducted directly into the opposite tunnel. Since these are ACCESS RAMPS not expressway ROW, the speed is limited to 35 mph, and the structure would not need all of the accuterments of an Interstate Highway.
The object is to get cross manhattan traffic off of city streets. While it is true that such a construction *might* attract more through traffic from the other options ie: the Verazanno or the Geo. Washington, this can be controled by the tolls to be charged. A toll combination for a Tractor Trailer combination might be $75.00 on this routing and only $50.00 or a GW-Whitestone/Throggs Neck combination.
Another option might be to 'close' the tunnels to trucks that do not have the correct permits (ie EZPass) indicating that their destination is in Manhattan. Make the toll $75.00 for trucks that do not have the correct EZPass. I'm sure that they will quickly find the least expensive crossings.
I'd suggest the same for cars, but you really couldn't get the penalty tolls up high enough for the geese to figure it out.
Elias
"… While it is true that such a construction *might* attract more through traffic from the other options"
Hence, the Robert Moses secret, "Build the Triboroght to relieve the traffic… oh, thats crowded now, build the Whitestone… oh thats crowded now, build the Throgs Neck…" sorry, thats just me venting against Moses again, not you
"…The object is to get cross manhattan traffic off of city streets."
Thats actually not bad, but the issue would still be this new elevated structure cutting across the city, a tunnel, while maybe more expensive to build is still hidden
Just a side question/thought: Which would NIMBY scream more against?
Moses CREATED the "Nimby" ... another testimony to his magnificence. :)
Just a side question/thought: Which would NIMBY scream more against?
There are NIMBYs on 37th Street?
I thought it was all garment factories!
A well made enclosed highway could have a pedestrian mall below the roadway, perhaps with an LRV to circulate people to the subways. Throw in some other juscy tidbits, it is a possibility. However for the moment this project is off my radar screen.
Elias
The only thing about your toll proposal is that as a Queens resident I already feel discriminated against by the city. Manhattanites can go to NJ for one toll but Queens residents need to pay at least two (unless you use the free bridges and wait forever in traffic to cut thru Manhattan). For example to get to Atlantic City I need to pay both the Verazzano and Outerbridge tolls - it has always been a sore point to me that Manhattanites can escape to their vacation spots for less.
Location, Location, Location. I understand your frustration, but it all depends on where you live. The truth is there is an extra body of water seperating you from New Jersey (I have the same problem, I live in Suffolk), than Manhattan has.
The fact is that it is a pain to travel from Long Island (any of the four counties on LI) to New Jersey, but we are also a greater distance from them also, than Manhattan. I wish they would actually build some kind of tunnel from Brooklyn. There was talk of a freight tunnel. The truth is though that a tunnel of all modes is needed - freight, passenger rail, and even car access.
BTW what ever happened to the freight tunnel proposal the Guiliani was pushing a few years ago?
I've always though there should be a Rockaway-Sandy Hook bridge.
That would be like....as long as the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel...maybe even longer. But you would also have to build new or very improved access roads.
The bridge would be nowhere near the length of the CBBBT, but it would still be a lawn gas bridge.
You can't see the DelMarVa from Norfolk, but you can see Monmouth county from Brooklyn and the Rockaways. You can see the lighthouse too. I don't know if you can see the parachute jump or all those apartment buildings from NJ since to the best of my recollection, I've never been in Monmouth County.
Seems to me that there isn't enough density of anything in the Rockaways (save the airport) to support a major transportation link to Sandy Hook, and there certainly isn't enough infrastructure on the New Jersey side to cope with traffic across any such bridge. The roads can't accomodate the level of traffic they are asked to sustain at peak hours now. Plus, it would be an incredibly long bridge, rivalled in length (in the US at least) only by the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, and for what? A few commuters? Assuming the goal is to provide easier truck access to Long Island, a better approach would be to twin Outerbridge and then build a surface route across the southern end of Staten Island, reverting to a bridge/tunnel arrangement from there to a point in Queens several miles closer to JFK than where the Verrazzano is anchored on the Brooklyn end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>> BTW what ever happened to the freight tunnel proposal the Guiliani was pushing a few years ago? <<
You mean the one that the Port Authority was chartered to build -- as it's sole "raison d'etre" -- back in 1921? That one?
Jerry Nadler is still championing it. Perhaps some day it will get built. Personally, I hope so.
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
You would have to pay two tolls anyway, one for the QMT and one for the Lincoln, only that at the moment each one is only collected in one direction. So call the extra toll a fee for using the fancy new stopless interchange. Actaully I was more into penilizing trucks since they are the most poluting, most disruptive, and really ought to use periferial crossings.
If you lived in a radius near the QMT then it is the best route no matter what. coming from further east or from brookly the Ver. or Throgs Nesk is more attractive anyway, but me thinks some are too lazy to drive up there to use them, and instead follow the LIE like lemmings into the city.
Elias
"You would have to pay two tolls anyway, one for the QMT and one for the Lincoln, only that at the moment each one is only collected in one direction."
Actually, the QMT is collected in both directions, as are all East River tolls.
The tunnels probably wouldn't overwhelm the Lincoln, because it has three tubes and traffic patters can be redirected easier there. The center tube could be connected to the new tunnels in both directions, while the south tube would be linked to the Queens-bound tunnel and the north tube to the one from New Jersey. Drivers wanting to exit/enter into Manhattan could still exit from roughly the same places they do today.
The QMT would have more problems, since it only has two two-lane tubes (and assuming both of the cross-Manhattan tubes were two lanes). It could cause big(ger) PM bottlenecks at Second Ave. and 36th St., as traffic heading into the tunnel there has to merge with traffic coming over from New Jersey, while the new tube would have to shrink from two lanes down to one before merging with the existing midtown tunnel lanes.
In the other direction, since all the merges would be at the LIE toll booths, the problem wouldn't be as great, depending on how much increase traffic (if any) the new cross-Manhattan tunnels would create.
Look at tunnel traffic now. Pretty bad, no? Add a new high-speed connection under Manhattan and a lot more traffic will try to use those same tunnels. That's the basic problem. People will adjust their travel patterns to take advantage of the available roads.
Depends on the toll structure. Set it high enough (the same way Bloomberg just did with the cigarette tax) and you would discourage excess traffic, though for it to be feasible for the new tunnel section, some sort of EZ-Pass system would have to be manditory for all traffic, since putting toll barriers inside the tunnel wouldn't be practical.
"…You might as well just put the Great Wall of China across the middle of Manhattan for the effect it would have, even if the roadway was run through buildings…"
I think part of the issue with a lot of Robert Moses' ideas is that he took what worked on a nationwide scale, and "tried" to condense it down to a cityscale. He had some great concepts/ideas, but its his execution of them was another story. (Hence elevated structures like BQE that rip cross parts of the city) Granted again these structures were meant for cars, and do their jobs to certain degrees, nonetheless, I wonder how much consideration he truely gave to their effects on the city.
While many right wing morons preferred to blame John Vliet Lindsay for the city going to hell, it was actually two OTHER factors that destroyed the Bronx and parts of Brooklyn forever - one was Robert Moses dissecting neighborhoods and turning their former residents into Nomads, and in particular in the Bronx it was Moses' Cross Bronx Expressway and Co-Op city which were to blame. Co-Op city turned the Concourse and its environs inside out, causing mass movement of the original residents of the Concourse and surrounding "luxury apartments" and then the double-whammy of Moses cutting off Tremont and bisecting the county once again with his damned Cross Bronx Expressway.
Areas where Moses did his thing turned to crap within only a couple of years after being modified. Moses did FAR more damage to the city than any other factor. Fortunately for Manhattan, he was stopped before Greenwich Village also vanished ... my opinion, but it's proven historically ...
And lest I be accused of being part of the "other moron wing" there's LEFT wing morons too - like Mark Green, Andrew Cuomo and many others. Lindsay, some folks need to be reminded of, was a REPUBLICAN. He switched to democrat to try a run for President, but was pretty much a pragmatist who was left with the entrails of Moses' "grand plan" hung around his neck like an albatross ... whatever happened to "centrists" who were more interested in those they represented and the "greater good" than patronizers of one extreme or the other? :)
Let's see how Mayor Mike does ... he's the closest to it the city's seen since Lindsay.
A lot of these structures like the Cross Bronx sliced up and seperated communities; Manhattan is lucky some structures/roadways didn't come to be in the way Moses proposed them in Manhattan.
Entities that move people (whether subways, cars, highways ect) carry great influence on the people they move and the areas which they move through. Again I'm not going to dispute the need for these structures, back then or now, but I do question the execution of some.
Going back into transportation, there were a lot of factors to hold back subway expansion, but Robert Moses during this time was one of the factors (turning the focus mainly on roadways)
... and as you study it, DELIBERATELY to the detriment of subways and mass transit. It was that Midtown thingy specifically (and the planned raid on Greenwich Village) FINALLY turned the tide. Alas, we STILL don't have that second avenue subway after Moses got beech-slapped ...
Agreed :)
As for, construction is for 2004, Does anyone know how its going to be sectioned up?
ex Grand to 14, then extended further
Moses also went out of his way to condemn as many Bronx properties as possible to build the Cross-Bronx. There were proposed routes that would've taken much less room, but in the power game, the more properties taken, the better.
He got some of his buddy politicians insider tips as to what lots would be needed for the route. Their buddies bought them real cheap, and put their legislative votes to work in favor of the road. When the road came through, they sold out their properties to the state for a large profit.
ROADS get the politicians power and money, not subways.
Yep, folks may get upset with me owing to the preponderance of one particular party holding the cards in office NOW, but my statements about politicians being legalized organized crime held even when the OTHER party was in office ... whatta country though. Once upon a time, gangsters used to SEIZE power, now we get to elect them. :)
A deep underground expressway, beneath all of the subway lines and running across 37th or 38th Streets to connect the Lincoln Tunnel with the Queens Midtown and had no exits in Manhattan would help the traffic situation by getting all of the Long Island/New Jersey thru traffic off the cross
streets.
That would be my plan too. Or perhaps an all new tunnel alongside the Midtown and Lincoln Tunnels, which would go directly from Queens to Weehauken without access to Manhattan.
:-) Andrew
How can I find out more about the proposals of Robert Moses?
ie. . .
"Moses proposed the Mid-manhattan expressway along 30th street"
How did you find that out?
Piece of cake ... you stuff the relevant words you want to learn about into GOOGLE, then it's a roll of the dice ... try here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=robert+moses+mid+manhattan+expressway+
Imagine what ELSE you could find on the most bizarre of topics? :)
B"H
wow...just went from one page to another (thanks google!) and blew 20 minutes reading about SPUI interchanges...how bizarre..okay, back to werk.
Yeah, no question this wasn't the SAME Moses. :)
And a specific site from Steve Anderson: http://www.nycroads.com
:-) Andrew
Yep ... there were a few others, which is why I just pointed to Google in addition to the "wanna know something? Here's how to use google with the words you're looking for." But yeah, that was one of the better sites linked to, and humorously up top too. :)
I'm in the middle of reading "The Power Broker", and i saw a picture of the proposal in the book.
Geez, am I the only low-tech person here????
B"H
I read that last summer. woooof. what a monster of a book. took forever and a day to get through, and some of it just dragged and dragged. altogether, it was a good read, however. made me resent him all the more for the damage he did to the rapid transit infrastructure in new yawk.
Highway: Yes
Elevated: Hell no
You can build stuff in Manhatthan but nothing elevated unless it's a building. Especially in the vicinity of any building higher than 10 stories. A crosstown subway line may ease out traffic.
Out of the house again, pretty much for the rest of the month. As usual, OTP will not be updated and my access to e-mail will be limited.
For those of you interested, there are many new pictures on my website, www.orenstransitpage.com.
Talk to you all upon my return, I plan on having quite a bit to share.
Sincerely,
Oren H.
To the best of my knowledge and my participation, R142 trainsets ARE NOT GROUNDED!!!!! Yes there is an ongoing investigation into the coupler/link bar assembly by engineering BUT these trainsets still remain safe to ride. Everyone was called out to look at the damage...it was to remind us all how important inspection is and how our inspections assure passenger safety. The couplers are built by WabCo and the assemblies installed by Bombardier. 'Who is to blame?' means nothing when you are stuck in a tunnel and the system piles up behind your broken trainset. Like one of my buddies says, 'Let the sideshow begin.' TA work is excellent work...tickets are fifty cents apiece.
I'll take two tickets to the mid-morning show. Can I get "up close and personal?" I want to reach out and touch an R-142 coupler/link bar assembly.
---Brian
If they actually do have another pull-apart, and the press gets wind of it, especially after the Democratic gubenatorial primary, it could become an interesting issue, given the publicity this week about the Acala trains (yea, apples and oranges, but to the press it would be Bombardier and Bombardier -- the easiest connection to make of all -- and don't think either Cuomo or McCall would take the opportunitiy to go after Pataki, Kalikow and the rest of the MTA brass hard on the safety issue to try and close the gap in those current polling numbers).
You seem to know a lot about the issue. What's the comparison of roles between Kalikow and Reuter?
Politically, both Reuter and Kalikow would be on the hot seat if the R-142 problems become an issue in the November campaign, which is really just politics more than anything else (given the same situation, but with a Democratic governor and a Republican challenger, the same thing would happen).
The thing is, once the press gets ahold of a story, even little things can become major issues. That's what happened to Johnson and Johnson a couple of weeks ago -- they had a problem with a plant down in Puerto Rico which happened to come out at the same time as all the accounting scandals were being revealed. The press jumped on that, and for at least a day treated it as though J&J had the same kind of bookkeeping problems as Enron, WorldCom, ImClone, etc., and sent the stock down, because they didn't differentiate between the two problems.
In the case of the MTA, Amtrak had to sideline its Acala Express trains again today, so the odds of a "let's find something else bad about Bombardier" story appearing somewhere increases. And if the MTA does have to send some of the R-142s to the bench to check for pull-apart problems, they'll will find themselves linked to Amtrak in buying flawed equipment. Under those circumstances, McCall and Cuomo would be foolish not to jump on it (though the fact that the cars are also built in New York might cause a few other problems down the road, if the Plattsburgh workers start to feel like scapegoats).
Maybe it will become another R46 deal in the sense all cars have to go into the barn twice a week for, in this case, drawbar housing inspection!
Now that would really be deja vu all over again!
Coupler/linkbar inspections have been extended into the yard. What is looked at by Bombardier personell is the witness marking drawn across the assembly...TA has informed Car Inspectors NOT to go undercar in the yard. I do not trust yellow painted pieces of wood to isolate third rail from 'current collectors.' Every trainset will eventually go into a thorough examination of the coupler sleeve...tough nougies for Bombardier. The witness mark is not a reliable measure of whether the sleeve locking pin is present...Kawasaki will be stuck doing the same inspections. Drilling into the coupler sleeve for examination questions mechanical integrity. TA should force Bombardier to replace every truck in every R142. Period. CI Peter
This place has been pretty quiet today, at least since we realized that the Redbirds were NOT coming out of retirement for emergency service on the #2. Heh Heh. When I read that first post I nearly jumped out of my chair. My co-workers had to hold me down. I really can't take too many more false alarms like that. Not good for you. Anyhow, here's a photo I took on 8/6/2002. Discuss. (hint: It's not really that out of the ordinary so don't get excited.)
---Brian
It's a 2 train somewhere between 149 and E.180. It's certainly no odder tha the train I passed south of 168 St/Bway my first night on the road (12/31/99 - actually about 0115 on 1/1/00). That was redbird signed as a 1 to Van Cortlandt.
It's certainly no odder tha the train I passed south of 168 St/Bway my first night on the road (12/31/99 - actually about 0115 on 1/1/00). That was redbird signed as a 1 to Van Cortlandt.
Um, I'd say that's pretty odd. #1 trains aren't usually redbirds onnakownna the supposed problem with platforming at South Ferry.
---Brian
I'm a bit confused about the so-called "platforming" issues at the ferry - for nearly 30 years, "redbirds" were all there were on the number one and the first five cars ALWAYS stopped at the ferry. Fillers came out, geese came and went, and they rolled along once they retracted. Did they MOVE the fillers or something that forbade cars that ran there for 30 years from going there? If so, something was wrong with the 62's then since the 'boids never had problems at SF before.
I'm confused about it also. I've heard "of the problem" but I've never heard what the technical issue actually is. The fact that no redbird has stopped at SF in a while doesn't help the theory that "there is no problem."
The "story" I heard here was that the 62's had the doors in a different position with respect to the carbody. Wonder how the 142's would fare. But as to a definitive answer from a credible source, still ain't heard any ...
There has to be someone who knows! Attention all T/O's, has anyone ever told you that when you are driving a Redbird down the line to South Ferry, not to stop there? And did they happen to tell you why? I'll even accept responses from people who heard reasons from a friend or a spouse of a T/O or C/R. Thanks.
Nah, I think some would require a signed statement with a notary seal for it to count. :)
Yah but I'm desperate...
That is part of the correct reasoning behind "LAHT" cars not stopping there. When the train stops at the "10" marker at South Ferry Station, a blank piece of third rail is positioned under the cab catching the lead trucks contact shoe (energized third rail at SF is offside IIRC) and bridges the car's 600V to the blank piece, continuing the circuit for the moving platform. On R62 cars, the platform stopping pattern at SF was changed to allow the doors to meet the platform; it doesn't match the redbirds. A different system is used at 14 Street on the East side, that will allow for all cars to trigger the platforms. At first when delivered, the R142 cars wouldn't stop at 14th Street because they didn't trigger them either, they should have that repaired by now. When I last worked the signal dolly while waiting to cross from Bway to B loop, I stopped exactly in position at "10" spot to see if the platforms would come out at SF, they will not unless you are in an R62.
Yeah, that'd explain it. And yeah, I've got the picture. Dumb as it may be. But that also tells me that if the redboids stopped at the right position (assuming that they didn't MOVE the GF's from their former positions under the platforms) then it should come out for those too, only difference being a few inches of stop position difference for the doors to line up.
I guess I won't even bother asking if anything would line up with the INNER loop. :)
Any car with symmetrical doors; i. e., whose center doors are smack in the middle will platform at the inner loop. There are only arched openings in the wall, and these line up with the center doors. The curve on the inner loop is even sharper than that on the outer loop, and as a consequence, the gap between the end doors and the platform is too great even for gap fillers. You'd have to modify some R-62/62As a la R-12s 5703-5706 in order to have any sort of service to the inner loop.
I wouldn't worry about that happening - the way things are built as of the redbirds, center-door only was not a practical possibility without MAJOR screwage of the rods. I think R12's were the last cars even capable of having the door engines and rods modified to do the center door trick, but glad to see the lamp on top of that mortar board hat still lights up, Unca Grampy ... boop-boop-be-doop! :)
This seems much more plausible than the previously expressed 'the doors don't line up with the gap fillers', which was proven to be complete crap. All one needed was a yardstick and the measurements of the distances between the doors.
So what you're saying is the gap fillers don't work unless the front truck of a train is bridgeing a gap in the power circuit.
-Hank
This one's got me wondering now why "battery runs" don't cause the fillers to swing out and scrape the "carp" out of trains that don't stop. But I won't be naughty and bring up the concept of twenty shoes in momentary contact being enough to do it, there's probably a holdoff circuit or timer in there too ...
But in my lifetime, I rode LoV's through there, and PLENTY of redbirds ... couldn't fathom what was so special about 62's and why the TA painted itself into a corner. Whoops. Did I say that? :)
Did the Lo-Vs have a separate control for their center doors? I know I'va asked this before and I apologize for bringing it up again.
Some of them did I *think*, the mod (if required) was EASY but best to let Unca Joe or Unca Ed answer that one since I was still sucking on my thumb as they went away. :)
There is a man with a key in a booth on the platform; he must turn the key to disable the platforms.
-Hank
Aw geez ... now you're going to have me twirling again. Heh. OK, so we have a guy in the "sound proof booth" playing 'you bet your life" which only begs the insane question of "then why couldn't a redbird stop a few inches off from where a 62 does, turn the key and let the geese on and off. See what you started? :)
Seriously, I understand it would take an entire rewiring and all, but you know how it is ... that'd only beg the question of "why not?"
I really don't get why they've gone for a system with an automatic trigger (by the train position) but overridden by a guy on the platform looking where the train is and turning a key (and it sometimes not working because of the automatic bit). Why not just have the guy on the platform with his key?
Heh. As tempting as that is, I'm gonna pass on the cheap shot. :)
We're going to have to go straight to the Ministry of Silly Walks for the answer to that poser. Heh.
- It's not particularly silly, is it? I mean, the right leg isn't silly at all and the left leg merely does a forward aerial turn every alternate step.
- Yes, but I think with government backing I could make it very silly.
We'll have that leg off in a minute. :)
I wish I knew John Cleese's response as he circled his desk doing an extremely silly walk. IIRC Silly Walks was near the bottom of the list of priorities for funding.
He hated doing that, BTW.
Damn! I've put my full scripts of Monty Python somewhere and can't find them. Expletive! Expletive! Expletive!
Right, and only the front truck. Once the train pulls off the third rail blank, it also bridges an Insulated Joint locking out future triggering of platforms by subsequent passage of the train. Also, I recall in the days before R62s riding R17 cars at SF with blown shoe fuses that the platforms did NOT come out for. Blown shoe fuse symptoms are excess arcing on the one live shoe, frequent flashing of car body lighting and third rail arcing over expansion joints, not to be confused with crossovers where gaps in third rail are deliberate, and 2 blown shoe fuse symptoms are dead car with third rail on one side of car, live car with third rail on other.
Good post. Thanks.
Are you sure that the gap fillers were powered. The TA may have decided to "turn them off" since there is no need for them to be on with only work trains using the loop. All that is needed is the turn of a key in the booth at SF and they will not extend.
Are you sure that the gap fillers were powered. The TA may have decided to "turn them off" since there is no need for them to be on with only work trains using the loop. All that is needed is the turn of a key in the booth at SF and they will not extend. That is what they do when trains are bypassing the station.
I hate to disagree, but...
Having seen the gap fillers extend with a redbird stopped in the station, I KNOW they don't care what stops there. This was witnessed when the platform C/R forgot to disable the gap fillers as a GO redbird came through the station. What happens then is really upsetting...
(bypassing train at 10 mph energizes GFs, GF signal goes RED, stop arm comes up, train goes CHOW. Platform C/R is now named MUD.
Maybe that is a reason why they won't allow them to stop there at all. There has to be something why LAHTs won't trigger them properly. I once flagged a work train up to the 10 car marker at 2 in the morning with the Platform conductors neck broken and they still don't come out. When the R142s came out, they didn't trigger the ones at 14th Street, so something with the circuit doesn't always take hold on all of the cars here.
I din't understand how the gap fillers don't work at SF for the redbirds anymore. I know it's a different type of curved station, but Union Square has no trouble handling all three type of equipment with it's gap fillers: Redbirds, R62, and R142.
READ THIS POST written by one who knows!
Thanks, that answers it.
Duh, I missed that whole part of the thread originally.
Hold it. Did I hear someone say something about Redbirds at South Ferry?
(No, it didn't stop.)
Did I say ANYTHING about what the south terminal signs read?
Remember, I said I passed it near 168 St. All I saw was the front end sign reading Van Cortlandt Park. This was a special for the 'Millenium' crowds from Times Sq. It sat in the spur track south of the station, came out when called and went north to VC, then ran light back to the spur and home to 239 St. You guys have got to stop reading things nobody wrote.
You never sdaid ntuin about whiuxch way you were going!!!!! uo jsut daifd you passed it! you should say nb or sb or eb or wb or tb or tv or kb. ok? thanks. why can't we be friends? :) sorry, ladt day of work and then went to the bars....talk to ya all later with my big "goodbye post"
Whoa!? Did I write that (the post above this)? I really gotta lay off the alky. Anyhow, I'd like to say goodbye to you all. While I'm not leaving the internet, I'm leaving NYC. I'm going back to upstate NY where my University is. Of course this means I'll be going back to my DSL which means I'll be putting my new website online which hopefully some of you will find interesting. But I digress...I enjoyed being in NYC this summer, and reading and following many of the interesting threads here at SubTalk. And going on one SubTalk mini-field trip. I will continue to monitor this board on at least a weekly basis, but since I'm not in NYC, I don't think it is worth it for me to spend a lot of time here. I mean when someone posts that a redbird #2 is at 42nd street now, I'm still 4+ hours away from Times Square and would never make it down there in time before the doors close.
Hopefully I will be back in NYc for the Sept 15 festivities, as well as other weekends. And if all goes well, I might be back in NYC permanently as soon as December 2002 or as late as Summer 2003.
Take care, may the Redbid live long and prosper, and don't wizz on the third rail.
---Brian
Great! You've just reminded me, "Its time to head back to school" In two weeks I'll be heading back to mah university in CT. Hopefully, this time I don't have deal with another lousy roommate as I did in the previous semesters. Anyhooo! Good on your fall semester. If u live on campus, don't let your roommate get to u. :)
Good luck to you too. No, my entire college career (going on 9 semesters now) I have lived in a unique place. When a frat was kicked out of it's frat house back in the 1950's, and organization formed and took over the lease on the house. I live there. I had a nice double with a good roommate my freshman year, and every year since then I have had singles. And last semester and now this semester I will have had singles that are "doubles" in size do to a lack of people living in the house.
Wow, I wished I was in your position.
You should have gone with 201 or 206. Your closet is scary.
I'm a big boy, I can handle it. Besides, you can't fit six or seven computers into 201 or 206.
Sure you can. What else are you going to use that extra closet in 206 for?
Where in Connecticut? I'm a UConn alum myself.
So am I! Graduated in May of last year. Now I see why in some of your OSOTT posts, you compared the women's basketball team to the R10s.
My commencement was on the very same day Mt. St. Helens blew up - May 18, 1980. I've been going back every year for Homecoming since 1982 and playing in the Alumni Marching Band.
Yeah, this past year's edition of the women's basketball team was like a train of R-10s ripping and roaring past 81st St. Unstoppable. The football team should be so lucky.
And in 5 weeks, I'll be heading off to Leicester (www.le.ac.uk)!
You'll miss the September 17th festivities on the inside. My Dep Sup broke my chops today...'Dont't 'F'up because this is your last day of probation.' September 11th was a terrible time for many of us...the greatest gift was that TA did not suspend our class. CI Peter
That's a Southbound #2 train entering the Intervale Avenue Station.
Thank you
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Silver 2 on White Plains"
"It's a 2 train somewhere between 149 and E.180. It's certainly no odder tha the train I passed south of 168 St/Bway my first night on the road (12/31/99 - actually about 0115 on 1/1/00). That was redbird signed as a 1 to Van Cortlandt."
Question -- Why were they running redbirds on the 1 that night? Was it just crowds coming from Times Square? I remember that there was more than one set out there, but I don't remember the reason why.
Aside to Alex L. -- I may have been one of your passengers on that trip. I came down from 242 sometime around 1 AM and recall seeing Redbird 1's near 168 and again around 103.
CG
Any idea if it's an R62 or an R62A?
An R-62A, of course. It's a resigned 3 train.
HEY! I RODE THAT TRAIN THIS MORNING! It is SO weird to see a 62 on the 2 line!
BTW, what station is that?
Intervale Av
I can't believe that so few of you are at all surprised to see R-62A's on a "2" train!?! I thought you would be a little more surprised. Anyhow, here's a photo of the rear end of the same train that I posted in the above post.
---Brian
just a little shout out for my post here since it seems no one has seen it... http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=370633
If anyone is interested I'll give an explanation about this train that was told to me.
I'm sure we have seen the first picture of the R62A in Broadway stripes signed up as a number 3 at Intervale Avenue, just as we have for your next two postings with the same picture. If that don't start a chain letter, I don't know what will.
No, the first photo was of the *front* of the train and it was signed as a *2*, not a 3.
Bleeeehhhhhhhhh...
I see R62As on the 2 almost every day...why SHOULD I be surprised?
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Silver (2) AGAIN?!?!"
Well until this photo I've NEVER seen R-62A's on the #2. When and where do you see R-62A #2 trains every day?
Hey! They forgot to change the roll sign! Duh!
I was told that this was one of a few #3 trains per day that go up to 241 St instead of Lenox. And I guess for the trip back south they changed the sign to show #2, although I think it was still actually a #3. I might be wrong on that last point. I'll have to check that.
There was no trip back south until the following morning. The trains are sometimes signed in the front as 2's for their northbound trips to the Bronx so that people trying to get to the Bronx don't shun it and people trying to get to 145th and 148th don't get on. They are officially 3's, IINM.
What a surprise! I've never seen an in service R-62a #2 train before. As soon as I saw the photo I nearly fell off my chair! I had only seen an R-62a with a "2" sign in it at East 180 Street barn back in the late 80's whe they were first delievered. This is a shocker to me.
More cars enter service as of today:
7006-10 in service today with 6861-65.
7011-15 in service with 6956-60.
6571-75 and 7026-7030 road testing for 5 service.
No sign of 7016-25 as of yet (on the road).
On the 142A front, a second train entered service on the 4, as of last week (week of 8/05). Those are Cars 7671-75 and 7681-85. Thanks George C. for that info!
-Stef
How many redbirds are left that are avaiable for passenger service.
Last count, #5 had 170 R142s...about half the fleet. Redbirds now get scrapped before or during inspection. The entire fleet is 350 something...R142 pullapart mess may hang us up. #2 line still does a few Redbird inspections because their schedule is more than two weeks lagging behind...those trainsets may never come back for inspection again. CI Peter
Which lines still have redbirds? I assume the 5 has most of them, although it's been awhile since I've seen anything but R-142s on the 5. I guess they use the birds during rush hours mostly.
The 4, 5, and 7, with occasional sightings on the 2 and 6.
Let's see:
34 on the 2.
108 on the 4.
212 on the 5.
309 on the 7.
Adds up to 663,including the idle WF R-33s.
(As of August 12, subject to audit.)
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Too many!!!!!!! CI Peter, undertaker
Them's FIGHT'IN words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say there are too FEW redbirds!!!!!
The difference between the men and the boyz is Redbird Undercar. Temperatures that turn your guts to mush with excessive water consumption can kill you...never had this work before like this...do your brakes and pneumatics/wheel gaugeing early to see if you are a winner...scrapped car. Everyone loses in this fight. CI peter
I wish they kept 1 married pair and a single. Would've been =666 cars-EVIL! ;)
#9136 5 Lexington Ave Express
Do your best...give the Lord the Grace...and stay away from R142 6666.
Do you think that the A train to Lefferts should be discontinued. Why don't the make the C train end at Lefferts. I remember a lot of people who were confused when they wanted to go to JFK.
What exactly is confusing about it? The subway map is very clear, and the appropriate train's destination signs say "Far Rockaway."
You don't like reading signs?
Many people become confused. Have a seat at Lefferts Blvd and you'll see at least one person or another per ariving train who didn't know that they had to transfer to another A to get to JFK.
Well what I do is this if they wanted to go to JFK, and they ended up on my train to Lefferts, I simply tell them to go downstairs to catch the Q-10 (Green Bus) which will take them right to the terminals in JFK right from Lefferts.
of course,thats cause their stupid and REFUSE to read signs. the A to lefferts will never be discontinued since its very necessary plus there isnt enough cars on the C for an extention,yet alone enough crew for operation.if you dont like riding the Lefferts A,then get off at Rockaway Blvd and take the Q112 bus,it'll take you there too.
There would be enough cars since the R143's are coming in. But even if you send all A's to Far Rock and all C's to Lefferts, then customers at those 3 stations past Rock Blvd. will complain over the loss of express service, ignoring the fact of getting additonal off peak service.
Lefferts Blvd. riders are screwed with the current A train, since only half the trains run to this terminal. Only 3 TPH run to Lefferts outside rush hours. C service would actually double service and make the trip to Manhattan faster by eliminating long waits, even though it runs local along Fulton St.
That's been my point all along -- especially if there are timed connections with the A at Euclid, so people who would prefer an express can get one there.
It also annoys me to see the Lefferts Blvd. spur and the Howard Beach station on the Rockaway line get only half of one line to serve it. Both lines run through areas where population densities dictate a full 6 TPH non-rush hour headway. South of Broad Channel, 3 TPH on each Rockaway branch is acceptable. Which is why I advocate sending all A trains to Rockaway, alternating between Rockaway Park and Mott Ave, with the C running to Lefferts.
"Only 3 TPH run to Lefferts outside rush hours"
Actually it's just been raised to 4.
But still, off peak a C to Lefferts makes sense. NOT in rush hour, however, where Lefferts provides significant load for the A and there is absolutely no need to send more As out to the Rockaways.
Running the C to Lefferts would increase the number of trains per hour during rush hours as well. No need to send any A service there. And the Rockaway Branch, especially from Far Rock, DOES need more rush hour service. 6 TPH from Mott Ave and 6 TPH from Rock. Park would be adequate for both branches, giving the rest of the line the 12 TPH it needs.
"Running the C to Lefferts would increase the number of trains per hour during rush hours as well. No need to send any A service there."
No NEED to send As to Lefferts in the rush hour, but it would be an unconscionable reduction of service not to. Tt would also be simply a waste of trains. You don't need that many trains (6Cs and 12 As) east of Euclid in the rush hour to serve the people - 15 As does it.
In rush hour on lines that can justify an express, you try to run the express to the outer stations and turn the local somewhere closer in if you can. Examples: the 6, Queens Blvd, 4th Ave Brooklyn, 168th St Manhattan. It doesn't always work out, but on the A/C line in Brooklyn it does, and you don't gain ANYTHING by sending the C out to Lefferts in the rush hour.
Non-rush hour definitely the C ought to go to Lefferts to improve train frequency.
and i keep mentioning this over and over,it wont happen because there are subway car shortages so forget it.the C will never ever go to Lefferts.
with the R143s there will not be a car shortage
since they are only gonna be on the L and M then there is a car shortage,they arent gonna be in 207 or Pitkin where the A and C sure that means some extra R32's will go to the C but thats gonna be to make it 10 cars long,not for any extention.so the C still will not go to Lefferts and even if there was enough cars,there wouldnt be enough crews to cover the extra service.
these are the little things that need to be considered when talking about extending service or adding service.
Will they really lengthen the C trains to 10 cars? Is this in writing somewhere?
I think that the C will go to Lefferts in the near future. The cars are being transfered around already so car shortage would not be a factor. The number of crews wouldn't be a problem either. Maybe 1 extra crew for the C and with the A not going to Lefferts, perhaps a subtraction of 1 A crew. I would encourage increased traffic to Lefferts and the Rockaways. For the airport, for the new developments (Arverne) and the beach. I heard that a Supt. wants it to happen. They would maybe have the same set-up as Rockaway Park and have 4-5 A trains out of Lefferts in the AM/PM reverse to go express for a few of the passengers. I live along the A line and the decreased wait would be very welcome.
No NEED to send As to Lefferts in the rush hour, but it would be an unconscionable reduction of service not to. Tt would also be simply a waste of trains. You don't need that many trains (6Cs and 12 As) east of Euclid in the rush hour to serve the people - 15 As does it.
True, service between Euclid and Rockaway Pkwy. would be excessive. But that's how the line is laid out.
In rush hour on lines that can justify an express, you try to run the express to the outer stations and turn the local somewhere closer in if you can. Examples: the 6, Queens Blvd, 4th Ave Brooklyn, 168th St Manhattan. It doesn't always work out, but on the A/C line in Brooklyn it does, and you don't gain ANYTHING by sending the C out to Lefferts in the rush hour.
Yes you do:
1. Increased trains-per-hour running on the Lefferts Blvd branch (8-9 C's as opposed to 6-7 A's)
2. Increased A service at Howard Beach/JFK (12TPH as opposed to 9)
3. The elimination of the Rockaway Park shuttle, balancing service on both branches (Rockaway Park riders currently get screwed as opposed to Mott Ave. branch)
Non-rush hour definitely the C ought to go to Lefferts to improve train frequency.
Running an A during rush hours and the C at other times is confusing and operationally burdensome. Running the C to Lefferts 24/7 is the simplest solution.
"Yes you do:
1. Increased trains-per-hour running on the Lefferts Blvd branch (8-9 C's as opposed to 6-7 A's)
2. Increased A service at Howard Beach/JFK (12TPH as opposed to 9)
3. The elimination of the Rockaway Park shuttle, balancing service on both branches (Rockaway Park riders currently get screwed as opposed to Mott Ave. branch)"
1. There are only 6 Cs, so this is not an increase. Anyway, 6 is enough for the traffic there.
2. True, but big deal. 9 TPH is fine for Howard Beach. The rush hour there is in the reverse direction anyway (airport employess going there).
3. Far Rockaway deserves far more service than Rockaway Park; it has far more patrons. Adding 3 more trains to Rock Park is a really bad use of resources, and certainly benefits far fewer people than sending Cs to Lefferts in place of As hurts.
There are only 6 Cs, so this is not an increase. Anyway, 6 is enough for the traffic there.
There are C trains scheduled approx. every 7 minutes leaving Euclid Ave. in the Am rush. The C runs at an 8-9 TPH headway, not 6, during rush hours. 6 trains for the Lefferts Branch is not really ideal.
2. True, but big deal. 9 TPH is fine for Howard Beach. The rush hour there is in the reverse direction anyway (airport employess going there).
Far more people actually live in Howard Beach, as opposed to working at the airport. They use their trains in the same way other commuters use other routes.
3. Far Rockaway deserves far more service than Rockaway Park; it has far more patrons. Adding 3 more trains to Rock Park is a really bad use of resources, and certainly benefits far fewer people than sending Cs to Lefferts in place of As hurts.
Population density around the Rockaway Park terminal is pretty much the same as Far Rockaway. Bus routes from Breezy Point also feed into the Rockaway Pk. station. These people, outside of the 5 scheduled A "thru" trains, must endure an infrequent shuttle and an inconvenient transfer. Running both A's out to Rockaway and the C to Lefferts simplifies things, balances service between all 3 potential branches and gives everyone optimal service.
its not gonna happen unless more trains become available for both 207 and Pitkin Yards.and that may not be till the R160's roll in.and even then,its still up to the TA to decide that and knowing them they might not even do it anyway.
Actually, you could do the non-rush-hour changes (which are the only ones that make any sense) without more equipment. But it would cost more labor, and it's not clear the Lefferts folks actually want it.
It's been suggested here more than once. I pointed out that, with timed transfers between the A and C at Euclid, Lefferts passengers would have faster service (including the wait) if they didn't mind changing there, or just slightly slower service if they stayed on the C (the 6-minute local-express differential being mostly offset by the halved wait times). However, there are some problems with the idea. AFAIK, the TA isn't currently considering it.
I believe it is because Lefferts people want direct express service into Manhattan. But I agree with your idea {at least part time since the C doesn't run 24/7} because the Lefferts Blvd line is a three-stop branch off the mainline and I don't see why three stops should be taking away Rockaway expresses. If they so desire express service, change at Euclid for an A {which will be very frequent,} or stay on the C for the six-minute difference.
The C could go to Lefferts full-time -- just call the late night local service C instead of A. (Extend it to 207th, of course.) Revive the round-robin H shuttle to cover the Rockaways from Euclid at night. And when the A does run, alternate them between Far Rock and Rock Park, doing away with the shuttle.
I never did like the round-robin H service. As an alternative consider running 25-50% more H trains than you would and alternate them instead of having all Hs do the round-robin. It is a waste of time for people going from Rockaway Park into Manhattan and Manhattan into Far Rockaway. I never rode the round robin, and I do think it sounds interesting and may be a good line to ride on for fun, but it really is just a waste of time. Yes, maybe you could get off a Far Rockaway Bound train at Beach 67th and catch the train ahead of it going into Manhattan on the other side, but is it worth the trouble? Just alternate them as, in your plan, the A would at other times.
I think the "round robin" H worked fine for nights, but I like your alternating idea better for days and weekends.
BTW, a question about that service. Did they have a train operator at each end of the round robin train, or did the operator have to walk to the other end of the train at Rock Park and FR? It seems like it would have been faster if they had a operator at each end of the train.
"Fast" and "Round Robin H" is an oxymoron.
I worked the round robin several times in 1986. Typically, the crew would take the train from Euclid to Rockaway Park and drop back there for 40 minutes while another crew took the train you brought in. You would take another arriving train from Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway, change ends and take that same train back to Euclid Avenue.
Those were actually part of the CC work programs, the runs from Rockaway Park did one four borough tour before lunch, and the ones from Euclid had either TC or shuttles. I worked job 321 at the Park, one round trip returning to Euclid, DH cars to RPK Yard, lunched then half the round robin to clear at Euclid. It really sucks what the TA did to cab time over the years.
During the midnights the round robin jobs belonged to the A. I worked vacation relief in 1986 (#168 out of 170!) and tried to stay midnights if I couldn't get am's. IIRC most of the midnight round robins started at Euclid and one or two started at Rock Park. The early ones at Euclid either did 3 round robins or 2 rounds and a put-in from Pitkin Yard lite to Far Rock. The last 2 jobs out of Euclild did 2 rounds & then a round to 207 from Far Rockaway. That was the one usually got stuck with. The other ones were great jobs. If I could have picked one of those I would have stayed on the round robin forever.
I did get a chance to work some of those CC jobs you mentioned on the AM's. A put-in from Concourse Yard & a half to Rock Park or a round trip to Euclid. Talk about stealing money. Ah those were the days.
You ever see that 216C job out of 145, back in '89 or so after the 5AM to 9PM C service changes? 2 to Rock Park, with the lunchers at Bedford. Making 145 a north terminal was great for passengers but horrid for crews. I think the only bright side to that was removing the green machines, we froze our a$$es off enough. You probably had enough time to get a relief on the bird before its demise too, two airports and the one Rockerfeller shuttle.
By 1989 I was beginning my Spaldeen routine...bouncing back & forth between the A & B divisions. Never worked the C on a regular basis. I'm a Queens guy. I did get the bird a lot during my XX days. The 701JFK-314am at Jamaica Yard. Put in 6 cars to north of 57-6. Cut them 3 & 3 then make 2 trips to Howard Beach. Not bad work when I could get it. As far as 145 goes, it's a hell hole for the crews. I just came back from the IRT this year after spending the last 6 years there so I had the pleasure of breaking in for the B division all over again. Worked out of 145th on a B job. Let me tell you, that might be the dingiest crew room I've seen in a long time.
I will like to see that track replace b/t Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway.. and service provided by shuttle service 24 hours a day.. This will eliminate the 2nd A train that goes to Rockaway Park from Manhattan. Increasing service on the Far Rockaway Line..
N Bwy Line
Yeah, but that would make Far Rockaway loose a one seat ride. I don't think it would go over well, if they would have to transfer to get to Manhattan.
I think you misinterpreted N Broadway Line's idea.
He said make a shuttle from FR to RP. He never said anything about cutting A service to FR. This is actually a GREAT idea, as the people from FR can get to the A at Beach 67 instead of Broad Channel, and FR can have a "cross-Rockaway" service to RP. DISADVANTAGE: people from RP for A train have to change platforms at Beach 67 but wouldn't have to do so at Broad Channel.
My impression is that the vast majority of passengers boarding on the Rock Park branch transfer to the Manhattan-bound A, not the Far Rock-bound A. Am I wrong?
No.
Of course this being a hot summer, the off-peak and weekend travel in the Far Rockaway direcion (eg the beach) is probably higher.
Actually, they're probably always going to Manhattan seeing as how you could take the Q22 from RP to FR and further.
Are you telling me the Q22 takes more people to the beach than the A train?
Why would people pass up a direct bus ride to take a train and transfer at Broad Channel {changing platforms no less}
From one end of the peninsula to the other? I doubt it. OTOH, in the summer, a lot of people from the rest of the city use the Rock Park branch -- and for them, Broad Channel is the better transfer point.
Broad Channel also gives you access to Jamaica Bay's national park. Great spot for bird watching.
it will eliminate the one seat ride for the Rockaway Park line... which doesn't get nearly the passenger flow as the Far Rockaway A.. But passengers will benefit by more service to Manhattan.. provided by the Far Rockaway A service.
N Bwy
"And when the A does run, alternate them between Far Rock and Rock Park, doing away with the shuttle."
Lefferts deserves 6 rush hour tph. There are a lot of buses feeding in. It may be a short stub but it's not unused.
Rockaway Park does not deserve more tph in the rush hour. There is not the traffic to justify running more train all that distance for relatively few people.
As I said before, non-rush-hour, there is more justification for serving Lefferts with the C.
I agree.
Almost right,
The Two A's would be A to Euclid and the Far Rock A.
I agree. Three stops on a line should not determine how a service runs. There are plenty of stations that only have local service to Manhattan. Are the Lefferts line station that busy that they should decide that the A should still run there. Actually, they would be better served if the C terminated there, as they would actually have MORE trains than they do now. I would assume you would need one or two more trainsets on the C than you need now, but that shouldn't be to much trouble, as the C used to run between Rock Park and even Bedford Park Blvd, rush hours, some years back. If the Rockaways don't need all that extra service they could turn some A trains short at Euclid.
"because the Lefferts Blvd line is a three-stop branch off the mainline"
You got it all backwards.. The A that heads to the rockaways is the one that is the branch line.. Just take a look at Rockaway Blvd.. as the Rockaway line veers off the main route.
N Bwy
That's a tricky thing. Originally the Lefferts line was the end of the Fulton El, and was the "mainline". Now however, I feel the Rockaway line is the "mainline" and the Lefferts has become the "branchline", even though, as built the trains were meant to go straight and not go to the Rockaways.
Maybe it looks that way on the map, but it could be the way I said it in that going eastbound, the track to Lefferts is the diverging track and the track going to Rockaway is the normal track. Also the two tracks that go onto Rockaway eventually become four tracks. I believe the whole setup though was built so that both were mainlines. After all, the IND second system had that LIRR 99th St line to be used by subways off the Myrtle Ave line, I believe there is a picture of it on the front cover of the NYT of some date in 1929. The date is somewhere on this website. It was actually two lines crossing with a switch that resembles in a way a 90 degree turn. The best example I could think of is the J/L/M/Z at Bway Junction. The J/M/Z and the L are both mainlines but there is a switch between mainlines.
Maybe it looks that way on the map, but it could be the way I said it in that going eastbound, the track to Lefferts is the diverging track and the track going to Rockaway is the normal track. Also the two tracks that go onto Rockaway eventually become four tracks. I believe the whole setup though was built so that both were mainlines. After all, the IND second system had that LIRR 99th St line to be used by subways off the Myrtle Ave line, I believe there is a picture of it on the front cover of the NYT of some date in 1929. The date is somewhere on this website. It was actually two lines crossing with a switch that resembles in a way a 90 degree turn. The best example I could think of is the J/L/Z at Bway Junction. The J/Z and the L are both mainlines but there is a switch between mainlines.
The Lefferts A makes total sense at rush hour, when that many As are needed closer in and there is no point having them all originate way out in Far Rock where they aren't needed.
Middays and weekends it would seem to make sense to send the C to Lefferts and let all the As go to Far Rock. That would give both places better service than the abysmal 4 tph they get now. But it would take more equipment.
How about this idea:
Non rush hours: All C trains go to Lefferts. A trains alternate between FR and RP, doubling service to JFK and making this less confusing, and eliminating the RP shuttle.
Rush Hours: Some C trains go to Lefferts, others short turn at Euclid. A service goes to RP and FR as usual, with some A diamond service also to Lefferts, along with the C trains that don't short turn.
I once read on this board that the three Lefferts stations have more ridership than the entire Rockaway branch including JFK. I don't know if its true though.
An idea. Eliminate every other 3 train. Extend the 4 to New Lots all times, and put 2 trains in place of the 3s that were taken out. 145th and 148th on the 3 can deal with less service. This is after the 9/11 damage is fixed.
idea or no idea,its not gonna happen so forget it,why in blazes did you even mention this anyway? makes no sense what so ever
Don't eliminate, just send some of the (3) trains to the Bronx. Direct service from New Lots along with the <5>.
Flatbush can't handle that much service. It's at or very close to capacity already. (You'd be reducing service at Nostrand and Kingston on the 3 also, BTW.)
Given ridership numbers in the Bronx, service is more than adequate, at least in comparison with other parts of the city. And, no, the 2 never has scheduled headways of more than 20 minutes, and those are only late at night -- if you see a 40-minute gap, it's because of a problem or a nasty GO.
When is the South Ferry spur set to reopen? I've heard rumors that it will open on 9/11/02.
New tonite!
South ferry 1/9 reopens SEPTEMBER 15; 2 express in Manhattan; 3 to New Lots.
Cortlandt St. N/R reopens SEPTEMBER 8. Same day N and W swap off-peak service to Manhattan; F to Avenue X; Q Circle to Brighton Beach.
Shuttle buses all around....
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
where will Q diamond end? Can Brighton Beach handle two lines turning?
Brighton Beach will indeed be the terminal for both Q services. RTO management is confident that it can handle all of the service (remember, it terminates both Q services at 57th Street without trouble, though they're both coming in on the express track at that location and they won't both be doing that at Brighton Beach).
David
So, there will be no Coney Island service at all?
It's been said a gazillion times already: The W will be the only line regularly serving Stillwell during the construction.
Talking about the Dub,
what's this mean about W and N switching off-peak service in Manhattan?
(W)est End Scott
Since the West End line will be the only line with direct rail access to Stilwell Terminal (do to renovation for the next few years), the N (which ran all times) will become a shuttle like the (W/B) always have been to 36th Street nights and weekends. So the W will now be running all times, whereas the N use to. The change makes sense because, the service that serves Coney Island should be the "all times" train. Now the real question is will this stay like this when Coney Island reopens. By then the B should be back on the West End. I think the West End is busier than the Sea Beach, but I doubt the B would become an "all times" train as it isn't needed in Manhattan off hours. The N will probably become the "all times" train again because it serves Astoria.
Beginning September 8, the late night and weekend N will only run as far north as Pacific. At those times, the W will continue through Manhattan and Queens as a local. On weekdays, when the N runs into Manhattan, everything will be as it is now (well, except that the F and Q won't be going to Stillwell anymore, and a week later the 1/2/3/9 will go back to the way they were a year ago).
Also, you could say that there are 4 tracks that could handle terminating trains instead of two like at 57th/7th. Trains that terminate on the local track could relay south of Brighton Beach and come back on one of the "express" tracks.
--Mark
Time is runnng out if you want to get pictures of Stillwell with 3 of its 4 platforms still open.
--Mark
Sorry, just pass it along. No senators will be harmed by ME today to comply with everyone's wishes here. However, it's still on topic as a subtalk issue ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=55398&category=REGION&newsdate=8/14/2002
No subscription required ...
There are lots of old RR stations that have been turned into restaurants and so forth. I see no reason why we have to let the RR use the station for 50 years first.
I picture a nice Wal*Mart. :)
Why don't they just let Amtrak use it for free? They've already paid for it. Just consider it a transit initiative,
I'd bet Amtrak would move in in a HEARTBEAT ... what so many (especially our politicos) just don't seem to get is that you CAN'T spend money you don't have and if they were to take some of that emergency cash that was good only for one one month ride in the barrel, they'd have to be explaining to the delegations of FORTY NINE OTHER states why they blew their wad on something that was not absolutely necessary.
What frosts my buns on all this is that they are now down HOW many Acela sets and don't have the cash for that? How many coaches are they down where they've cut service to the bone because they can't afford to get any of them on the road? And some pipsqueak porcine SWINE of politicians come to shake them down for money they don't have?
It'd be a WHOLE 'nuther story if Amtrak had pocket change. They don't right now and it's incredibly loathesome to be shaking them down for THIS which isn't a priority at the moment for Amtrak. Yes indeed, the politicos should open up the station, eat some MORE cost for now, let Amtrak use it and come back later when Amtrak's future situation allows for additional expenses.
Sorta like the "get three free months of HBO if you sign up now" or similar. And they're accusing *AMTRAK* of arrogance when the issue is any check Amtrak would write to lease the space would BOUNCE. Sheesh.
According to me, it is up to the locale to provied a fancy station if the standard AMTK shoebox is not to their liking. AMTK Stations are like token booths, for pitty sake. If you want/need something fancy/better you just go ahead and build it, and I'll be happy to stop my trains there.
States, Cities and Regions are SUPPOSED TO SUBSIDIZE AMTK servioces in their area!
Hell, the State should be PAYING Amtrak to stop there!
Elias
States, Cities and Regions are SUPPOSED TO SUBSIDIZE AMTK servioces in their area!
Hell, the State should be PAYING Amtrak to stop there!
There is clearly a balance. For instance, Amtrak needs the patrons from the major destinations (such as New York, Boston, Chicago and Los Angeles) to fill the train. On the other hand, Amtrak is a monopoly in rural areas and those areas are often the most lucrative in terms of yield. However in areas where they don't need to compete against other public carriers, there really isn't any reason to provide any more than an Amshak.
There is a previous case of this -- the 403(b) train that the State of Maine is running (a.k.a. the Downeaster) does not take any money from the State of Massachusetts or the State of New Hampshire. In fact, NH has outright refused to contribute towards its operating costs. However, in order to make the Maine train viable, the State of Maine decided that it must stop in Dover, NH and Haverhill, MA. (Haverhill is a commuter-stop, Dover is a college town). In those cases, the carrier (and indirectly the State of Maine) must pay for the privilege of stopping, and if NHDOT happened to own the station (in this case they don't) then they could charge whatever rent they wanted. However NH would have no say over which trains stopped there and at what time of the day.
As for NYSDOT, well it's tough shit because Albany really just isn't even on the map as far as Amtrak destinations go. There's nothing up there. I really see very little reason why Amtrak shouldn't consolidate all its operations to Springfield, MA. The Lake Shore could combine its portions at Springfield and take away upstate New York service altogether. The Lake Shore should run non-stop from Springfield to Buffalo. See how NYSDOT like it. In fact, there's really very little reason why the Lake Shore should not run via Canada. Wait -- why not just abandon Lake Shore and move the route over to the NS/PRR Route? That would be way better. If NYS wants a train, they should pay for it.
Carrier economics is complicated.
AEM7
"As for NYSDOT, well it's tough shit because Albany really just isn't even on the map as far as Amtrak destinations go. There's nothing up there."
I agree with your conclusion that Amtrak shouldn't pay for the privilege of stopping at a station that NY decided to build on their own.
But it's not an insignificant place, despite Selkirk's claims to the contrary. I keep reading that Albany is the 10th busiest Amtrak station, which is significant, given that NYP, PHL, WASH, BOS, and the suburbs thereof probably fill in the rest of #s 1 through 9. So it's pretty much the biggest Amtrak location off the NE corridor; much more used than Springfield, MA.
It is the state capital, which makes it the center of a lot of political discussions. Many times NYC people have to go up there for meetings. There are a sizable number of Albany-NY trains that don't go further north or west, and Amtrak wouldn't run those if they couldn't halfway fill them. It's also "the big city" for the entire 518 area code, which covers about as many square miles as all of Massachusetts.
But it's not an insignificant place, despite Selkirk's claims to the contrary. I keep reading that Albany is the 10th busiest Amtrak station, which is significant
You are probably counting transfer passengers, and you're probably looking at originating boarding statistics, which is misleading.
For instance, #449 officially terminate in ALB. Thus, all the passengers from #449 is transferring to #49 at ALB. That generates about 200 pax per day that have nothing to do with ALB in ALB's "ridership statistics". These are "originating passengers" because they are boarding a "different" train there. I can easily make SPG seem like the 10th busiest place on Amtrak by sending a few terminating trains over there with bunch of passengers expecting to board another service.
much more used than Springfield, MA.
My suggestion for changing operations over to SPG is simply to make way for an operational convenience, given the fact that NYSDOT is a pain. It's probably not a very realistic proposal anyway.
Many times NYC people have to go up there for meetings. There are a sizable number of Albany-NY trains that don't go further north or west, and Amtrak wouldn't run those if they couldn't halfway fill them.
According to the recent NARP Passenger Rail Revitalization Plan, the Amtrak cost per pax mile on the Empire Corridor is $0.374, while the revenue per pax mile is $0.212. The state contribution per pax mile is $0.000. In comparison to the NYP-PHL-HBG service, the cost per pax mile is $0.369, the revenue per pax mile is $0.219, and the state contribution is $0.017. In comparison, the Heartland Flyer has a higher cost per pax mile of $0.457, revenue per pax mile of $0.139 but a state contribution of $0.387. Of course, these figures could easily be fudged using all kind of fixed-cost allocation mechanisms, but the fact remains:
NEW YORK STATE'S TRAIN BURNS THE MOST CASH, GENERATES THE LEAST REVENUE, AND RECEIVES THE LEAST SUBSIDY
Even the stingy PennDOT does way better with their subsidy of the Keystone Corridor, which is in fact more profitable than the Empire Corridor.
(Data for FY 2000, the most recent available)
AEM7
"According to the recent NARP Passenger Rail Revitalization Plan, the Amtrak cost per pax mile on the Empire Corridor is $0.374, while the revenue per pax mile is $0.212."
That's because the route west of Albany is being heavily subsidized while the busy Albany-NY corridor nearly breaks even.
Buffalo to NYC costs $75, or about $.16 per mile.
Albany to NYC costs $43, or about $.31 per mile.
"You are probably counting transfer passengers, and you're probably looking at originating boarding statistics, which is misleading.
For instance, #449 officially terminate in ALB. Thus, all the passengers from #449 is transferring to #49 at ALB."
Your example is the ONLY case where passengers transfer at Albany (449 is an NYC-Buffalo train while 49 is Boston-Chicago). No other train from NYC to Albany has any train to transfer to.
There are approx 14 trains per day from NYC to Albany. Of these, 7 terminate at Albany and 7 go on further. The 7 that terminate at Albany are primarily serving the market of NYC and its suburbs to Albany (the intermediate stops of Rhinecliff and Hudson are not major).
So everything tells me Albany is a significant destination for Amtrak passengers, probably outweighing everything not on the NE corridor, including Chicago and all west coast cities.
That's because the route west of Albany is being heavily subsidized while the busy Albany-NY corridor nearly breaks even.
Shows how little you know about long-distance train economics. Firstly, the asset utilization ratio on the long distance BUF-NYP corridor is way higher than the asset utilization ratio on the ALB-NYP corridor. So when you account for capital costs, you will see that ALB-NYP corridor isn't all that lucrative after all.
Buffalo to NYC costs $75, or about $.16 per mile.
Albany to NYC costs $43, or about $.31 per mile.
Right, there you're looking at out-of-pocket costs for the consumer. What you fail to see is that the two-trains-per-day that go NYP-BUF or NYP-beyond BUF hauls many more coaches than the flimsy NYP-ALB runs. The load factors are different and the circulation is different (ALB-BUF seats often gets used more than once).
So everything tells me Albany is a significant destination for Amtrak passengers, probably outweighing everything not on the NE corridor, including Chicago and all west coast cities.
You obviously know very little about operations out West, including the hub-and-spoke system that runs out of Chicago. It is true that the Chicago corridors don't recover costs as well as the Northeastern Corridors, but in terms of passenger volumes, CHI leaves NHV way in the dust.
AEM7
"Shows how little you know about long-distance train economics"
"You obviously know very little about operations out West"
How about easing up on the attitude a bit there.
You're way off base in your evaluation of the ridership patterns within New York State. With the exception of the Lake Shore Limited and one or two others, the trains that travel NYP-BUF have 2 or 3 designated NYP-ALB cars which are DROPPED (or added) at ALB. There were 630,000 passengers arrivals/departures at ALB last year (13th most in the Amtrak system). That's just about 2000 a day. The transfers from the LSL (if they're even included in that number) don't make up a sizeable percentage of that number.
For someone who just learned that you can't run a diesel through the East River tunnels -- basic info to anyone who's studied Amtrak operations -- you certainly do like to portray the image of someone knowledgeable.
Lighten up.
CG
Never claimed to be an expert on Amtrak Operations. One of the things I know how to do is economic analysis and demand modelling. AlM here has no clue. As for operations, I know the operations around the BOS area. Not around NYP. I've never taken too much of an interest in the specifics of any particular operation.
AEM7
"One of the things I know how to do is economic analysis and demand modelling. AlM here has no clue."
I certainly have a clue about economic analysis and demand modeling. It's pretty obvious that the Albany-NY leg is priced at twice the amount per mile as Buffalo-Albany because the customer base is willing to pay for it.
It's certainly possible that Buffalo-Albany COSTS half as much to provide as Albany-NYC. I have no numbers on that one way or the other. If so, my conclusion that Albany-NYC is far less subsidized than Buffalo-Albany is of course wrong.
So, please prove me wrong. I'm very interested in the numbers. Please provide the cost numbers that demonstrate that Buffalo-Albany has a far lower cost per passenger mile (for Amtrak to provide) than Albany to NYC. The fact that the trains are longer is not sufficient proof. Longer trains could easily be much more expensive to operate. Yes, you don't need additional engineers for longer trains, but you need more of other resources for longer trains.
By the way, most Bufflao-Albany trains (all but one) are also Albany-NYC trains, so to the extent that longer trains are less expensive to operate per passenger mile, that benefit might also accrue to the NYC-Albany segment.
cost numbers that demonstrate that Buffalo-Albany has a far lower cost per passenger mile (for Amtrak to provide) than Albany to NYC.
The thing being demonstrated here is that long distance trains are in general cheaper than short distance trains, and that long distance trains realize better revenue than short distance trains.
The concept is asset utilization. Taking a look at the current Amtrak timetable weekdays, there are 7 trains per day between NYP and ALB/SDY. The southbounds are #'s 240, 242, 246, 248, 250, 256, 262. The northbounds are 251, 257, 259, 265, 267, 271, 273. These trains turn at NYP. If we look at the schedule, we can figure out which trains "becomes" which train at NYP:
240 NYP 07.30 -- 069 dep. 08.15 to Montreal
242 NYP 08.43 -- 251 dep. 09.45 -- 262 dep. 15.15 -- 267 dep. 19.10
246 NYP 09.15 -- 281 dep. 11.45 to Niagara Falls
248 NYP 10.20 -- 283 dep. 13.45 to Niagara Falls
250 NYP 11.25 -- 291 dep. 14.45 to Saratoga Springs (layover)
256 NYP 14.25 -- 257 dep. 15.45 (layover)
262 (covered)
Now look at the utilization of assets. Forgetting the ones that become long distance trains for the moment, the only thing that the trainset that departs as 242 at ALB does during the day is make two round trips to NYP. The only thing the trainset that departs as 256 does is make ONE round trip to NYP.
Of course, if we were to take away the long distance runs, the trainsets will be more productive. However, given the schedule constrains (morning and evening rush), most trainsets will make TWO runs to ALB per day, some rush-hour sets will make only ONE run per day, and only very rarely do the trainsets make THREE runs per day (it would have to leave first thing in the morning and return last thing at night).
Your argument was basically that the section NYP-ALB has a high yield (i.e. high revenue per mile). That is true. Now look at the costs.
Leasing charges on an Amfleet (or if you like, capital depreciation charges) is about $1,000 per day -- this is a wet lease, including all maintenance provisions pre-factored in. The Genesises are about $1,500 per day to include fuel. So your standard consist of P32+Amf+Amf+Cafe+Amf is costing you $5,500 per day. Crew costs are insignificant when you consider this (Crew will cost you about $1,000 per day).
That trainset could either do ONE round-trip BUF-NYP per day, or it could do two runs ALB-NYP per day. Thus the difference in revenue is the revenue ALB-NYP on ONE of those runs, pitted against the revenue gained from the ALB-BUF portion of the long-distance run.
I don't have the revenue figures. But we can do some back-of-the-envelope calculation: NYP-ALB in class YOFC is $50.00 one-way. NYP-BUF is $75.00 one-way. Wait: but ALB-BUF is $60.00 one-way.
To say anything at this point, we need the load factors. Again, I don't have the load factors. I don't have the boarding statistics. So I really can't say much. But I can say that unless you can show the average revenue from ONE NYP-ALB run exceeds the total revenue from the ALB-BUF leg (including any connecting pax to NYC), the BUF-ALB portion cannot be said to be subsidized by the ABL-NYP portion. Let's assume some reasonable load factors:
Short haul case
Capacity is 252
LF fare pax revenue
ALB-NYP 80% 50 201.6 10080
NYP-ALB 30% 50 75.6 3780
ALB-NYP 30% 50 75.6 3780
NYP-ALB 80% 50 201.6 10080
TOTAL 554.4 27720
Long haul case
Capacity is 252
LF fare pax revenue
ALB-NYP 70% 50 176.4 8820
NYP-ALB 70% 50 176.4 8820
NYP-BUF 10% 75 25.2 1890
BUF-NYP 10% 75 25.2 1890
other upstate 40% 50 100.8 5040
other upstate 40% 50 100.8 5040
TOTAL 604.8 31500
In the short haul case, the peak train is packed with 80% load factor but the off-peak trains are only 30%. In the long haul case, there is only one train a day ALB-NYP so it's crowded nevertheless. But the revenue from other upstate towns (LF=40% because some of the seats are used twice -- so even if the train is only 20% loaded, the effective LF could be 40%). Even with this dismal load factor, the long haul train still makes more revenue than the short haul train if the available assets were held constant.
AEM7
I just previewed this previous message before posting it -- it came out right, with [pre] tags working but [table] tags not working. Then I post it... the [pre] tags don't work. I wonder if [table] tags will work if I post...
Damn, I've already closed the Excel sheet.
Let me retry it:
Long haul case
LFfarepaxrevenue
ALB-NYP 70%50176.48820
NYP-ALB 70%50176.48820
NYP-BUF 10%7525.21890
BUF-NYP10%7525.21890
other upstate40%50100.85040
other upstate40%50100.85040
TOTAL 604.831500
"The thing being demonstrated here is that long distance trains are in general cheaper than short distance trains, and that long distance trains realize better revenue than short distance trains."
Thanks for the analysis. It's interesting, and you've partly convinced me that long ditance trains cost less per mile than short haul.
However, you haven't fully convinced me for several reasons:
- Long haul trains may not travel THAT many more miles per day. Of the 4 Buffalo to NY trains, only 2 make a round trip in a day; the other two only go one way one day and return the next day. So the average train goes 450x1.5 miles per day, or 675. In contrast, if the average NY-Albany train makes 2 round trips per day, that's 560 miles, which is not that much less.
- You can't count a passenger from Albany to Syracuse and a passenger from Syracuse to Buffalo as 2 separate passengers from a revenue standpoint when computing load factors. Their combined fare is $29 + $30 = $59, vs $50 for a passenger going the full distance.
- Given as you say that crew costs are relatively insignificant, longer trains will cost more money, so you don't get much of an economy of scale for the longer long distance trains.
Summarizing, yes it does look like it costs more per passenger mile to do NY to Albany than Albany to Buffalo. But not twice as much; whereas the fare IS twice as much per mile. So I would still claim that NY to Albany is less unprofitable than Albany to Buffalo, though the difference may not be as much as I thought.
Long haul trains may not travel THAT many more miles per day. Of the 4 Buffalo to NY trains, only 2 make a round trip in a day; the other two only go one way one day and return the next day.
Right, but we aren't really talking about the ALB-NYP which is just one example of the long-haul v.s. short-haul debate. I would further argue that the current Empire Corridor schedules does not represent the most effective utilization of assets. The reason it is inefficient is basically due to political meddling from NYSDOT. For instance, at the moment the Saratoga Springs train uses up an entire trainset for the day. That isn't really very efficient, given that Saratogas Springs is only some 60 miles beyond ALB.
There are a few reasons why the long-haul and short-haul markets are distinctively different in terms of revenues:
(1) If you have a long-haul train, then it is okay to provide less frequent service. The reason is because (a) long-haul trips tend to be planned in advance (b) long-haul riders have very specific time windows during which they will want to depart, hence are easier to consolidate demands, (c) even if a person randomly turns up during the day, the wait time as a percentage of trip time is still lower for the long haul than the short haul if the frequency is held constant. More frequent service means more coaching stock and thus more costs.
(2) Long-haul trains have a competitive advantage over short-haul trains, because people do not want to drive the entire day. Driving from ALB-NYP is no big deal, but driving BUF-NYP is a lot more of a hassle.
(3) Very-long-haul trains run about 22-hours per day. Short-haul trains run at most for 11-hours each day (excluding terminal layover times). This means, approximately, the long-haul asset is utilized twice as intensively as the short-haul asset.
With respect to the NYP-ALB case, if I ran the Empire Corridor, the schedule I wrote for that corridor would be very different to what Amtrak currently runs, and so would the prices. Given Amtrak's schedules, which is very much geared towards maximizing convenience for ALB riders, it isn't surprising that ALB riders are willing to pay top dollar to ride Amtrak. Under those circumstances, of course the ALB segment appears to make more money. In that sense your original contention is correct that as it stands, the ALB-NYP section probably generates *marginally* more revenue (not vastly more) than the BUF-NYP and BUF-ALB riders. However, if I recast the Empire Service schedules for the maximum revenue realization, the service to Albany would dramatically deteriorate because I would be going after long-haul traffic and not commuter traffic, and I would make far more money off the long-haul traffic deploying the same assets than Amtrak is currently doing.
After all, Amtrak doesn't really seriously consider itself in the BUF-NYP market.
What you have to remember here is that my goal as a carrier is to maximize the utilization of my assets, i.e. vehicles. Ideally, I would like everyone to ride BUF-NYP. Only if I can make more money by short-turning trains at ALB would I do so. Without havnig studied the competitive dynamics in that area in great detail, I couldn't tell you how many trains per day I would run to each of the stations (assuming that I had free access to the tracks to schedule trains whenever I damn feel like). A lot of the problems on the Empire Corridor (as in that people don't take the segment beyond ALB seriously) has more to do with CSX's ownership of trackage than the misconception that ALB is a large profit center.
AEM7
Rensselaer is actually the NINTH busiest Amtrak station. It's also located in a city of a TOTAL population of 7,761 people. The station is located in the middle of a railyard and locomotive maintenance shop in a city that is so dead, it makes the South Bronx of the 70's look populated. Meanwhile, the train does NOT stop in the city of Albany (population 62,367) and to add insult to injury, the train passes by the government complex within less than a quarter mile and it's an old industrial area with PLENTY of room for a train station.
The vast majority of Amtrak's customers at this station are state employees travelling between Albany and New York City (probably 3/4 of all passengers) and there is not much for bus service, taxi service or other service between the two locations.
But I never said it was an insignificant place, but the location of the station certainly isn't the most intelligent place for it to be situated. The good senator, looking out for his OWN district, has been routinely hijacking things from this side of the river and relocating it to HIS side of the river for a net gain of ZERO and a loss for our side of the river.
And yes, if this station is SO critical for the city of Rensselaer and the senator's district, then Amtrak should be allowed to stop there at NO CHARGE if this "gateway to the capital district" was anything beyond bluster. If Amtrak can't afford to keep TRAINS on the tracks, then shaking them down for money that could be used for that purpose is a low down dirty shame. I'd feel VERY different if Amtrak was rolling in cash and moving into the station would be a "petty cash disbursement" for them. It isn't though.
But that station would have been a *LOT* more useful if it were built in ALBANY where the actual CUSTOMERS were (along with busses and taxis and all those other useful things once you get OFF the train) ...
"But I never said it was an insignificant place"
Just making mild fun of your use of the phrase "Smallbany".
That phrase is more of my own pin-sticking over the city's "self-importance" ... technically, I think you have to have 100,000 for a population to be technically a "City" and Smallbany comes in at 62,367 when everyone at the Empire State Plaza is at their desks. :)
Compare to Staten Island, a "real" city. Heh.
I wonder which is smaller - Smallbany, NY or Bismarck, ND?
According to the 2000 Census:
Bismarck - 94,719
Smallbany - 62,367
Whoops. :)
Yes but the greater Smallbany metropolitan area (Albany, Rensselear, and Schenectady Counties) beats out the Bismarck metro area (Burleigh and Morton Counties) by 600K to 95K.
I like Kevin's answer better, so MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to Smallbany!!!
It's a great place to raise your kids if you don't plant 'em too deep and someday, if we grow REAL hard, maybe we'll get our OWN train station like the BIG cities of Rensselaer and Saratoga. :)
Could be (as we all know, most folks live in the suburbs) but I went with the cities themselves since that's how the Census bureau sliced the bologna. Don't get me wrong, I truly love it here, but the beauty of living around here is that it ISN'T "metropolitan" especially out here in the "hill towns" ... LET Bismarck have the cookie. :)
Bismarck - 94,719
Smallbany - 62,367
NOT
According to my street map
Bismarck ND = 49,256
: ) Elias
It's the Metro area (Morton plus Burleigh Counties) that's 95K.
According to the stats from the US Census bureau from the 2000 census:
Rank: 264 Bismarck, ND MSA Population: 94,719
Source: http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.txt
Did you leave some of your fellow citizens on a siding? :)
Plus there's a not inconsiderable 13% population growth :D hey, at that rate (and Albany - Schenectady (have I spelt this right?) - Troy's rate of 1.6%), it'll only take 210 years for Bismarck's Metropolitan Area to overtake Smallbany's. (Wow, I remembered how to use the ln button!)
I think Selkirk was delibrately comparing Metro Area Bismark pop to the City Albany pop. If the MSA numbers are used, then Smallbany > Bismarck.
But then, MSA definitions are basically arbitrary. Did you know that Akron is in the Cleveland CMSA? More to the point, Meriden and Middletown CT is in the New Haven MSA!!!?
AEM7
I think Selkirk was delibrately comparing Metro Area Bismark pop to the City Albany pop.
Oh I know - but it's so fun taking the P out of Smallbany... why is it the capital of New York State anyway? Wouldn't NYC have been a more obvious choice?
Actually, the whole point of the U.S. system of picking a small town at the center of state to be the state capital is designed not to give the big cities too much power. I happen to think it is a very effective system. It means that everything has to be done though a consensus-building, negotiatory process. There are a few exceptions to this rule: for instance, Boston dominates Massachusetts. The people in Western Mass rightfully feel that they are screwed over. Not many people live there now.
As much as I dislike Smallbany and New York State in general, I do think that selecting it as the capital was not a mistake. Any of the towns upstate -- Smallbany, Schenectady, Rorchester, Utica, Syracuse, Saratoga Springs -- they could have served as state capital. Which one gets picked really is arbitrary.
AEM7
When was Albany chosen? How did it come to pass that it was Albany and not any of those other cities you listed?
Answer
McEneny is my NYS Assemblyman. He's a genuine BOOB, but his historical knowledge is spot on. It's actually a good book. But McEneny represents part of the city of Albany and the "hilltowns" where I live in case anyone's interested. He had NO opinion on the "commuter rail" project and if he HAD (since a good part of it would have rolled through his district) maybe we might have had one.
I thought you wrote "McEnemy" on the first reading.
AEM7
He's a harmless boob ... but he's OUR assemblyfish. Be nice if he took calls from constituents, but hey. He's ruling class. :)
"How did it come to pass that it was Albany and not any of those other cities you listed?"
Back in 1800 Albany was reasonably accessible from NYC by boat. (After all, you want to keep NYC from having all the power, but if you go to extremes the government can't run).
Syracuse (to the extent it existed) was not, since the Erie Canal had not been built.
I believe Kingston was also the capital at some point. Not clear why they moved it from Kingston to Albany. Maybe to get as far from NYC as you could without being ridiculous about it (the Hudson is navigable to Albany but not much further).
I believe Kingston was also the capital at some point. Not clear why they moved it from Kingston to Albany. Maybe to get as far from NYC as you could without being ridiculous about it (the Hudson is navigable to Albany but not much further).
The main reason why state capitols are where they are is because when they were established, transportation *was* poor. It was a long hard road for most people to get there, and so they tended to place them in a geographically central location that also had decent transportation.
If you look at a map of Indiana, you will see that all of the counties are of similar size with the county seat in the middle, so that all might be able to get into the county seat and back home again in one day with a horse cart. Same general Idea with many state capitals.
Elias
"The main reason why state capitols are where they are is because when they were established, transportation *was* poor. It was a long hard road for most people to get there, and so they tended to place them in a geographically central location that also had decent transportation."
But that doesn't apply to selecting Albany in 1797. 99%+ of people lived pretty near a navigable body of water (the Hudson, East River, Long Island Sound, etc.). Albany was at the extreme end of that portion of NY that had any sort of population density at all. It's as if they deliberately picked the most extreme place you could still get to reasonably at all. My guess is:
(a) reduce the influence of NYC
(b) an optimistic statement of confidence in the future, that eventually of of NY would be well populated and Albany WOULD be the center of population of the state.
I guess at some point, the politicos figured it'd be a good place to hide once people got their tax statements. Half the year, it's buried in snow. TRY to find your assemblyfish. :)
Lies, damned lies, and statistics ... but it is THOSE numbers that are used by Congress to determine who gets largesse and who gets the bill. And yes, upstate is screwed over by every tom dick and hairless in creation so that the suburbs get the largesse and the cities and the farms get the bill. :(
I never had any problem getting a cab from the station into Albany, but I haven't made this trip regularly in a few years. There were always a dozen or so cabs meeting each arrival from NYC.
On one occassion, my cab back to the station was slowed in traffic over the bridge. Once the traffic eased, it became clear that I was going to miss the train by about 1 minute. The cab driver radioed ahead to the taxi dispatcher at the station, who apparently had a good enough relationship with the Amtrak engineer to hold the train for a minute or two while I ran aboard.
It's the 9th (or 13th depending on what you read) busiest station, but I'll always have a real small town feel about it after that incident.
CG
Things are remarkably the same, franchised "Yellow cab of Albany" and the same requirement though 10 cabs now sit to meet the train. This causes a good amount of frustration for many since those 10 cabs are *it*, especially off hours. The Amtrak people are the finest folks in the world here though, they'll do what they can to get you something else and it's not unusual for someone to give you a ride sometimes to Albany and dump you off where you can get a bus. But it's a sore point for folks who have to rot for a recycled cab sometimes. If you LIVE here though, you learn to take your car there and park it.
I've always been lucky - I know a number of folks on the railroad so I can call them and they'll let me know when the train will or will not arrive. I've had a few close calls too but they've always held the train as long as it wasn't more than five minutes. The schedules are deliberately fudged to allow the five minutes or so for most trains.
I have NO complaints about Amtrak between here and NYC, I've always had a pleasant trip and it's usually been ON or very close to schedule. Then again, I also know NOT to schedule my ride for something coming in off the CSX rails. :)
"Then again, I also know NOT to schedule my ride for something coming in off the CSX rails."
Indeed. My nephew and his girlfriend have had great experiences with on-time performance, so last Sunday they took the 2:25 from Hudson to NYC, with the goal of her catching a 6:30 PM plane at JFK. Unfortunately that train originates in Niagara Falls and was 1/2 hour late. Amazingly, she still made the plane.
Yeah, anything coming from CSXland is a phantasm, a pookah, a broken promise. I would *NEVER* schedule anything important around a southbound run that didn't come out of the yards at RENSSALA ... NO WAY. :(
Northbound runs are almost always 5 minutes EARLY at Rensselaer, southbounds STARTING at Rensselaer are often 5 minutes early at NYP and then have to sit there and wait for a platform. But if it comes or goes WEST of Rensselaer, best bring a pup tent and a Coleman lamp. :)
Rensselaer is actually the NINTH busiest Amtrak station.
Amtrak's website has a list of the 10 busiest stations based on boardings/alightings in 2001. I don't see Albany/Renssalaer on the list.
Of greater interest at the present time, though, is the statement concerning the origin of the name Acela, deriving from acceleration and excellence!!!????lol!!!lol???lol!!!!
Got that "ninth" figure from one of the TU articles I pointed at in one of these - might have been year 2000 perhaps, but I'm sure it was "ninth" at least in the articles. If ridership's DOWN out of here lately, all the more reason why Amtrak shouldn't pay for the shakedown. :)
I always thought the Acela was down the stairs where the boiler is. Silly me. Want mustard or mayonnaise on that Salaami? :)
Personally, I think Metro-North should take over the run to Albany. It would be, in my opinion, more economically sound, to have commuter trains instead of long-distance trains cover the service. The Metro-North F40CAT and GP40's locos on West of Hudson service would be good for this run, allowing Amtrak to bypass Rhinecliff and Hudson altogether. The Hyde Park station could be re-opened as well. Of course it would require changing trains at Croton-Harmon or Poughkeepsie, but it should definitely looked into.
I realy could care less about AMTRAK service up here... every single time I've used it between Albany/Poughkeepsie/Penn station... the service has always be Horrible!!! Trains were late every single time,didn't make better time than the bus,and worse of all,cost too damn much...Amtrak can shove it for all I care.. for once I can agree with Sen.Bruno and the Gov... send THE MTA MetroNorth trains to here and get ride Amtrak..PERIOD!
Couldn't agree more. And from all that's been said by our politicos, such is the typical mentality of New York's lawgivers. "Somebody us owes us gelt because we breathe" ... and we wonder why there's no JOBS. Federal and state money paid for the station, it's built. If it weren't for the politics of shakedown, Amtrak would have been operating out of this station (and another one soon to be built even though Amtrak doesn't WANT it) in Saratoga soon.
But that's not how New York works. The old style gangsters are long gone and now we have to ELECT them. :)
IMHO 2 service is horrilble for 3 reasons
1)Dispatchers at 241 BLOW especially in the PM tour.There is one in paticular (begins with R) couldnt run a railroad if his life depended on it.He is to busy running his mouth at the females to care trains leave 6-7 minutes late.
2)During Rushhours Flatbush uses 1 Pocket to turn trains,In theory should work But it doesnt having the 5 there just messes everything up.So if there is a delay it affects both Southbound and northbound service.
3)TIMERs,TIMERS,TIMERS,F ING TIMERS.They killed the line tweaking Timers so You cant be aggresive and try to make time up.You can make some time up with a bird ,but with 142 you cant T/O's are scared cuz of the Blackbox.
"Blackbox"
???? Like the ones on planes?
Yep ... event recorders ... the 143's have them also. Records every move of the handles, door operations and timings and a bunch of other details for (ahem, kaff, kaff) "diagnostic purposes" ... worse than a boy sprout partner. :)
"I'm going to tell-lll."
Sheesh!
Everything except neener-neeners.;)
Maybe they record THOSE as well. :)
ROTFLMAO
The new signal system also has "black boxes". They record the aspect of the signal and the position of the stop arm when a train bridges the IJ. So when you call in that a "signal flashed" signals can download the info and prove you either right or wrong.
Actually, I think that being FAIR if it does a "true recording" ... it's FAR more likely that a tower will drop a ball on you and get you in trouble than you're likely to hit a signal from inattention. If I had a nickel for every time I got yelled at by command when I stopped in front of a ball against me and the tower SWORE that I stopped for no good reason and made the railroad lay down (DeKalb comes to mind here), I would have amassed quite a supply of nickels.
Now if it goes that one extra HAPPY step of being timed with command telling you to key by, you take a point, cross the joint, watch the trip go down and the signal clear, then you get dumped, that'd be something NICE in all sincerity. If it could coincide the permission to key by with the result, that'd be quite useful indeed. But I'll bet it doesn't work that way.
Glad I don't work there anymore though.
i mentioned this before too,add the asses that hold the doors and refuse to let it go and you got it bad and not just the 2 but every damn line in the subway.
what i really dont like is looking at the schedule,sevice on the weekends on the 2 is every 12mins.why the hell is it like that? is the TA brain dead or what?
Add three more reasons:
Unionport junction, West 142nd Street junction, and Nostrand junction.
What do they all have in common? The Deuce has to wait for branch line trains to clear at all three junctions.
The real problem with the 2 is it's length. The longer the line is, the more problems you'll have. 5 trains coming to Flatbush does not help. The TA should drop intervals to Flatbush. Maybe, every third 5 train could terminate at Bowling Green. This would alleviate overcrowding at Flatbush.
As far as T/O's being afraid of the event recorder on the 142, yeah, it's true. But it's hard to make up much time by trying to beat the times. What I now do is I enter stations very fast. I come in holding Max Power, go to coast until I've put about 4 cars in the station, and take a hard brake. I can't do this at every station, due to downgrades, but I do it at most. I almost overran 86th street going n/b on the 2 line, so next time, I'll just take a brake 3 car lengths into the station.
The real problem with the 2 is it's length. The longer the line is, the more problems you'll have. 5 trains coming to Flatbush does not help. The TA should drop intervals to Flatbush. Maybe, every third 5 train could terminate at Bowling Green. This would alleviate overcrowding at Flatbush.
But then you have to deal with chasing passengers off at Bowling Green -- the same problem as with turning some 1's at 137th, only with a lot more through trains.
The basic problem is that each 5 to Flatbush eats up a slot on both the East Side and the West Side. What I'd suggest is to first schedule as many 2's as are warranted. However many 5's can still fit into Flatbush, send them there. Have the rest go to Utica or New Lots -- not because more service is needed at New Lots but simply because New Lots has spare turning capacity. No line loses service, and some lines (New Lots, Brooklyn local, West Side, and WPR) gain service. The only downside is that some people will have to transfer across the platform at Franklin. (When I took an afternoon rush hour 5 to Flatbush to check out the crowding situation, I found that there was none. My train, which was trailing behind a 4, was mostly empty -- it looks like most people already do transfer at Franklin if a 5 doesn't come first. We got to Franklin and a jammed 2 across the platform pulled out just before our doors opened. Then -- get this -- the 2 was held so our empty 5 could go first. That, my friends, is what's wrong with the 2.)
Bowling Green is well-established as a terminal for the 5 line. It would not be as difficult as chasing passengers off the 1 train at 137 because it would not be new to these passengers. More importantly, the train would go around the loop, so it won't matter if passengers are on the train or not. This differs from your proposed idea(and it's a damn good one)for 137 turnarounds where a train would go into a relay position. In that case, it's important to rid the train of passengers. In the case of Bowling Green loop, it isn't. So if passengers are still on the train even though they've been told to get off, it's their problem.
But something has to be done about the conditions at Flatbush terminal. It's really bad. Remember, you have to enter that terminal doing 3-5 mph because of the times. It's not a terminal that's built for a fast in, fast out operation. Reducing the number of 5 trains at Flatbush by 30% would help tremendously.
You know, despite all the railfanning I do, most of it outside of rush hours, I don't think I've ever been on a 5 terminating at Bowling Green. You're probably right that people get off without putting up much of a fight. I still think it would be preferable to send the non-Flatbush 5's to New Lots; if nothing else it would put them in position to transfer to a 2 at Franklin. From Bowling Green they'd have to take the next train, presumably a 4, and transfer again to a 2. (I suppose they could get off at Fulton and get the 2 right there, but getting across that station complex is a big pain.) But it would cost more.
One big question. I thought that, unlike the City Hall loop, the South Ferry inner loop was not revenue trackage, and that all passengers had to be kicked off the train before it could proceed. Is that not the case? Could I take a ride on a 5 train through South Ferry? At the railfan window of an R-33? Preferably without getting arrested?
But I agree that Flatbush is a pretty bad terminal. Might it be possible to build tail tracks there? It would require closing the south entrance and building an underpass, but it might be worth considering.
The inner South Ferry loop is nonrevenue trackage and you're not allowed to stay on. Admittedly it would be cool, especially from the railfan window of a Redbird 5. There are occasional GOs in which 5 trains are sent around the outer loop, switching over past Bowling Green, then take the West Side back to the Bronx. During such GOs, customers may stay on board.
It sould not take too much from the ferry fairy to waive her majyc wand over the loop and designate it as a revenue loop.
Elias
Ferry fairy. Very cute. I like that.
Keep in mind that Flatbush terminal was never meant to BE a permanent terminal. Second System plans had the IRT line continuing south along Nostrand Avenue deep into Sheepshead Bay. It was supposed to emerge from tunnel to el around Avenue J due to south central Brooklyn's low water table.
The Depression kept the line from being extended any further south. Some say residents along lower Nostrand rebelled against an el being built over it also doomed the project. You'll notice that Nostrand is sufficiently wide from the Junction to the Bay to accomodate a two-track line. Whether it was originally constructed with this purpose in mind is unclear.
That's why Flatbush terminal looks like an ordinary outerborough neighborhood stop, with two tracks and side platforms. Virtually every permanent terminal has an island platform. But in 1920, Flatbush was viewed as a strictly temporary terminal- much like 169th/Hillside, with two side platforms and two express tracks running through the middle, was the Queens IND temporary terminal from 1937 to 1950.
Intense development in the area made reconstruction of the terminal or extension of the tracks to a relay area beyond it (a la Broad Street, Utica/Eastern or 179th/Hillside) impossible. The LIRR Bay Ridge cut crosses under Nostrand Avenue a block and a half south of the end of the line. That's an additional barrier.
The Bay Ridge Branch isn't a barrier...it's an opportunity. NYCT's planners wanted to have the Nostrand Avenue Line right-of-way turn onto the Bay Ridge Branch, where the tracks would fan out and become a storage yard. Originally, the plan provided for a yard to the southeast of the Flatbush Avenue station, then it became the southwest. It's not in the current capital program, though.
David
I think David was thinking of a long time ago. Today is different.
It wasn't THAT long ago...5 years, maybe. But, as I said, it's not in the current capital program, which started in 2001.
David
To what extent does the Bay Ridge line and Buckeye Pipleline make it impossible to extend the Nostrand Avenue Line south? It seems like you can't go under without cutting the line.
It should be. This yard would be an overall improvement to IRT service which would extend beyond Flatbush. No more trains having to go to New Lots because no yard at Flatbush Ave. 2 and 5 service could be increased (especially 2 service), which would benefit the entire West side IRT.
Don't forget 21 Street/Queensbridge for the Q before the connector got built.
Don't forget 21 Street/Queensbridge for the Q before the connector got built.
And the J terminated at 121 st (and also Queens Blvd) for a while. Both of those stations were not meant for terminals and were only built as "side platform local" stations.
I believe Montrose Ave on the L also acted as a "temp" terminal for a few years when the Canarsie line was being built. (actually the line was totally disconnected from the system for a while, and to begin service they trucked the trains through Brooklyn streets and pushed them into the tunnel there - amazing how they did things years ago)
Any other "local" stations that were used as a terminal for a while for whatever reason? (I know 6th Ave on the L was a terminal for a while, but that is an island platform and can handle it better.)
Well, I'm not so sure that I would call 14th/6thAve a "temporary" terminal, since when it was built, there was nothing temporary orprovisional about it. It *was* the terminal.
That somebody *ADDED* to the track does not change what was intended by the builder.
The builders at Mains Street (7), and at Flatbush *Intended* that the tracks continue further.
If I were now to add on to the 14th Street Subway, bring it to 10th Avenue, and thence bend it to Javits Center would not therefore make 14/8th Ave a "temorary terminal", now would it?
Elais
You are right about 6th, but I guess Montrose does apply.
Thanks for the bit of history. I never knew that Flatbush was supposed to be a temporary terminal.
The only fast solution to the current problem, is to reduce the number of 5 trains going to Flatbush.
Now why are you going to Blame the PM T/D at White Plains? He has years on the job and knows how to run a railroad. Your just mad because he doesn't give drops.
Acid drops? I sure hope not.
No he doesn't drop any trips meaning everyone goes down the road.
Everyone but his friends Dave and you know that,He has friends who get paid to talk to him. Him and that Fake Wanna be Jamacian accent,Remember I am still the Only one as a C/R to tell him to shove and still get the drop.Told him to restrict me And write me up but after work he better run Because I was gonna let my fist do my talking, Dont Believe Me ask SubBus Because I got a drop after that and when I got to Flat 3 People offered to buy me lunch.And get this the Railroad Was in Place the Rest of the day .Coincidence I think Not.On a side Note SubBus still call me a Soprano after that day Hahahaha.
I never had a problem at White Plains they always worked with me on the AM AND PM's.
Just to branch off a small post, but when are times when a female would announce the transfers of a station stop? (I've seen it happen once during the entire duration of the trip from 34 St. to Bergen St. Brooklyn on the #2.)
Why, blessing the cab of course! :)
I noticed this on a #5 trip last monday. The traditional female voice announced the stop. The new female voice announced what transfers were available. The traditional male voice announced the satnd clear of the doors message.
BTW, that new female voice is quite, um....sexy.
Well guys I did it this time I have been restricted pending Investigation,I was the 1 who F'd up the N today,I hit the Homeball at 36 on 1 track Locked the tower out and made a whole lot of people angry.On a side note it was with the R40M Doesnt seem to brake as well as his brother the slant.
My sympathies ... here's hoping that your interview goes well and hoping that you talk to some of the folks here (in email of course) who can advise you of how to proceed. Best advice though, don't talk about it HERE ... prayers for ya though ...
You may or may not know that I am a shop steward and if you need any assistance feel free.
If it matters to you I am also Off The Street, which may make you feel more or less comfortable with talking to me.
Does that also kill the W and M?
Sorry to hear "me too" but glad to see you found each other. Good.
>to see you found each other
It is jusat one of many offers he is entitled to. You make it sound like we will have to go to a bridal registry.
Heh. Nah, I would have chided in if I had any clues, but I've seen that you know the score and your advice to him would be a WHOLE lot better than mine. Hey, spit happens. I remember getting VERY used to Arnines and finding myself at the handles of an R32 one groggy morning. I damned near hit a few myself, wasn't used to the peppy takeoff. Sure could have used some *real* assistance when I had my yard incident but there was none to be had for me. That's why I was concerned when someone else found themselves in a spot. I was hoping you or someone else who's been in the barrel under the current rules would step up and point him to some useful answers.
Those R-32s jumped, in the words of Big Ed, like jackrabbits, didn't they? I remember watching a D train of Brightliners leave 59th St. once, and by the time the last car went by, it was flying.
Damn, sorry to hear it man. Good luck
My condolences. I feel that X54 is most likely the worst spot on the line. At least for the R's. If TA would only move the punch and 10 car marker a wee bit further back instead of being right up with the signal. Very tight. You do have some room at the back of the train/end of station for this to be done. Even with the longer R32/40's. Best of luck!
3 track 36st or 4 track at pacific on a nice slider when you are new, all are so fun.
The BMT has quite a few stinky spots it is just that they are usually not at danger.
At these station I come in very slow and stop at lease a foot short of the mark so not to take a chance of hitting homeball. I don't care that I have to get out of the cab to punch.
Robert
Someone told me that they do that at Dekalb if it is against them. He said he went on his RDO to the back of all those stations to see where the train ended on the plat.
Maybe my penchant for wimpy stops wasn't such a bad strategy. :)
Ought to do what some of us did for the old punch boxes. Carry a CANE. Scares the crap out of the geese when you open the cab door carrying same and tapping on the floor a few times for effect before opening up. :)
Please let us not reopen that can of worms.
I be good. There were a few times though when I'd grab a shoe paddle and slap one from out the window when I stopped short. Nothing more embarassing than stepping off to hit it only to have your partner close up behind you. :)
I had that happen onec. I gave him one long buzz and he still closed down even when the signal was red over red. He did not see me tring the catch his eye to reopen, I had to key myself back in.
Robert
Heh. Annoying as all get out, I'll give you that. And of course, there you are opening up one panel and the entire platform considers it as an invite for themselves to squeeze in too. NOW you know what that yeller piece of wood is REALLY for ... to walk back five cars with in your hand. :)
I had to key myself back in.
At least you remembered to bring your key with you
It was my back up. I keep my main one on my reviser, I just had this feeling about the C/R that I was working with that day.
Robert
Used to be a workrule that your keys had to be kept on a chain on a belt clip at all times. For just such an occasion, since you were supposed to LOCK the cab if you left it. I take it they don't write you up for that these days and focus on the stupid. :)
Mind ya, I've reached in from the side and given a long buzz since you didn't wear a stupid vest in our day and many of us looked like any of the geese in jeans, blue shirt and some of the conductors didn't know it was US stepping off for a minute. Another reason why we often grabbed the woodie and just slapped at the box. Rule of the road was whatever you punched LAST was the lineup you got. Heh.
Nothing more embarassing than stepping off to hit it only to have your partner close up behind you. :)
Well, at least the train won't leave without you. (yet)
Heh. They're working on it ... but some trains HAVE left without a conductor. :)
Big Ed can relate to that. He said some kid at Stillwell Ave. popped the trigger caps on a prewar D train once after assuming the position. The doors closed, the kid supposedly gave a two-buzz highball, and the train took off without Big Ed!
Heh. Well, I can assure EVERYBODY here that it wasn't ME that did that. I guess that's why having key in hand became a custom. :)
On the old cars, you'd section with your key and remove it. You were expected to stand your post thereafter and key out if you had to leave it. My sympathies to Unca Ed, I'll have to email him and bust his chops about that if he doesn't show up here now and bust mine first. Heh.
I remember that story. There was no way to contact the motorman till Church Ave. (no train carried radios at that time) eventhough Tower C could have set a homeball against the train (Kings Hwy was unoccupied that day), but didn't. The kid got off the train at Church Ave. with an on time arrival. When the motorman investigated why the doors didn't close he discovered he left Stillwell without his conductor.
Normally I don't do things like this but I'm sure Uncle Ed will forgive me for passing this along since he just doesn't have the spare time to wade through so many messages here. On the "event" which Unca Steve described as the train leaving without Uncle ED (which is WHY I'm passing this along, wasn't Ed at ALL involved in that story) here's Ed's rehash of it in email to me:
------------
I remember the story well. IT WEREN'T ME IN THE CAB! I had been ired as conductor about 2 months before. It was summer of 1965, a Sunday afternoon at Stilwell on the Culver-D train. All R1-9 then [good for me].Details as you give, the conductor Ishmael Bergland had gone to get on his train and it was going or gone. I was one or two behind him. The kids who played conductor bailed at Ditmas or Church..and the motorman finally found out he had no qualified, on the train register and payroll conductor.Can't remember who the motorman was...Smith?Cook? Think my Sunday m/m was E.Moore. Ed
---------
Since there's few left who would know how that could have been avoided, I'll spout off for once. On both the #1 and #2 ends, in the cab there was a "door control" breaker. The triggers and bottlecaps were actually electrically operated, controlling the door air valves. If you dropped the breakers at your portion in the cab, then the operation of the doors by the unauthorized would have been averted. I'll leave it there. :)
Hmmm. Something else to check out in 1689 this October. Didn't the R-1/9s have drum switches as well? Or was the train zoned with the key switchs above the storm door?
Key switch above the door. I think there were drum switches, but in all sincerity I don't remember. There's only so much one can remember after all these years, much like cleaning out a hard disk, gotta make room in the old meat rom for what you're doing lately. But I *think* there were drums as well. Been more than 30 years since I've been on an Arnine ...
No two ways about it - you've gotta check out 1689 sometime. I can't wait to see it again in October.
I've been trying to find time to get to see her for a couple of years now. Unfortunately, I'm chained to a 24/7 reality here and time off for vacation or travelling just ain't been in the cards lately. I was happy enough that I could find two days back at Christmas to drop by the city and visit with some wonderful friends from here but it took me nearly a month to catch back up again after that.
1689 though is the OTHER thing I want to do and hopefully I will be able to before the year's out. But at the moment, that hope's been fading fast. But yeah, if only the economy was there and we could hire up someone here, might actually get a DAY off somewhere ...
1689 though is the OTHER thing I want to do and hopefully I will be able to before the year's out. But at the moment, that hope's been fading fast.
Plan on being at Branford on Sunday, 13 October, along with a bunch of other SubTalkers, or else on 28-29 September (Autumn in New York). Let me know which day you'll be there and I'll have my cousin Dave (a dairy farmer in Carlisle) run over to your place with a cow so there'll be someone to Moo! all day and supply plenty of fresh B.S.
See? Nothing solves a problem half as well as a little creative drinking thinking :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hopefully that'll be possible. Will also need to bring a check.
But as to dung, thanks to the script kiddies and malware makers, I can't find my darned shovel. :)
We'll understand if you get all misty-eyed when you see 1689.:)
Key switch above the storm door was for the Main Lights. R-1/9's had drum switches in the cabs for setting up door control zones that worked in the same manner as SMEE's. Once an operating position was established, door operation was done strictly with the triggers and caps.
Before setting the drum switches to "on" at the operating position, there was one small formality that had to be observed. Can Selkirk tell us what that was?
Wowsers ... forgot all about that. Shows ya what 30 years away can do. Well, if the breaker for the door control wasn't on, you'd have a crappy morning. Got burned by forgetting that often enough to remember it. Was that what you meant? I remember it would lock out the switch.
Finally remembered, it was SO ingrained I didn't even remember it until Uncle Ed and I exchanged an email and then HE went and tortured me as well ... the "cap slap" all around the quadrant to snap the lockbars to prevent "whoopsies" before turning the puppy "on" if it wasn't there already ... I guess THAT'S what you were looking for.
That little ritual was SO ingrained, I didn't even remember it until Unca Ed and I were going into some other Arnine rituals involving the lead car. I was wondering if I forgot a valve twaddle, the ritual of going in and doing the polarity reverser or some other odd religious observance. :)
By the way ... since you caught me in one of my many "duh" moments ... this is something that has been pestering MANY of us here since I never encountered any on the D train ... some stations such as QP southbound local, or Hoyt Northbound local had a note at the conductor's jailbars that said "MOMENTARY SWITCH OFF - R1/9 - R10" ... never saw one in my life and not even Unca Ed knew what the HELL that sign was about. Do you by any chance? Another tummy ache/headache settled if you DO. :)
The best we could guess is that it had something to do with the floor heaters although I'd be dipped as to why the sign would be at the conductor's position since it was normally the motorman that would control the heat AND the car lights ... any clue as to what THAT was about? There's a number of people here (myself and other knights of the mighty AMUE) who are DYING to know what the hell that was about.
IIRC, it was for the floor heat, which was to be turned off when travelling underground for any length of time. The sign indicating that it was to be turned on again was usually placed several stops before going outdoors. I think there was a general notice or transportation bulletin issued in the early '70's on the subject if anyone has access to those things.
Don't have my old rulebooks handy, but I do believe that setting of heat, fans, etc were the Conductor's responsibility.
Strange that we never got any of those signs at Atlantic, 7th or DeKalb, instead appearing apparently a long way from any portals. That was the point that was making us nuts here over all that. :)
Strange that we never got any of those signs at Atlantic, 7th or DeKalb,
Those are *BMT* lions....
The signs are on IND lines....
the home and proper place of the R1-9s and 10s
: ) Elias
Byt the by ... was "cap slapping" the answer you were looking for on that mystery question, or was is check the breaker?
Sorry..... forgot to post that answer. "Cap slapping" BEFORE turning the drum switch to "on" in order to reset the triggers. if the triggers were pulled, the doors would unlock and possibly open when the drum was turned.
Yeah, funny how I forgot entirely about that. Aside from that reality, you also did the four quadrant poppers just to make sure that the caps were there and that the mechanisms under the box weren't jammed or you'd have to set up shop in another place. Unless of course you wanted to close up by trying to PUSH the triggers back. Ow. :)
I'm going to try your method of releasing both triggers at once on 1689 - if they'll let me.
Like my TMO once put it, "you broke it, you bought it." ... bring cash. :)
A rumor I've heard (long long time on SubTalk), the brakes at East New York suck. Lets hope they don't mess up the R143s.
Rode my first R-143 today. The train set braked horrible jerking around a squeeling terrrible
I concurr with Selkirk, keep your yap shut on this board, confer with those more in the know via EMail. You have a good point to bring up, it's a new MU to the line, you weren't used to it, might save you. Good Luck.
Even if you are on probation you are entitled to have someone with you if you want! It's the law. You may not have the rights of a regular employee but you pay dues and are entitled to have someone there.
First of all, are you a probationary like me? If so, you need to e-mail me, and I'll tell you exactly what many of my classmates have said when interviewed down at Jay st. or Livingston, or P.S. 248.
But don't sweat it. People from my class are hitting signals left and right.
One guy hit an automatic in the Clark St. tubes, then hit a Homeball at E.180. He told the TA that the reason he hit the Homeball at E.180 is because the speed sign says GT 10, yet he reduced the speed of his train to 5 mph, and it still the signal did not clear. Since he did this on a R-142, the event recorder was used to corroborate what he said. So finally, he went to downtown and they told him, "it's our fault, the signal didn't clear when it was supposed you. You're exonerated". He's already back on the road.
Where is Homeball 36?
Aaaahhhhh! Relay tech versus solid state. Aren't pinball machines more reliable? CI Peter
Do relays have anyhing to do with this? Homeballs protect switches. If there just happens to be a station platform there, then it complicates the situation.
I was at 36th today and the Homeball on F4 might as well just have the 10-car marker bolted right to the signal! Thats a demanding stop with whatever controls your brakes, E/M or chips.
The only saving grace is that the IJ tends to be a bit farther back on many of the BMT lines. Look at the call on levers/buttons they are obscenely close to the homeball Vs. the IND where the lever tends to be a foot or two away. In some places the button is ON the homeball and you can put it in your window safely, I opened the door and looked at the roadbed before I was convinced the first time. If you put the HB in your window in IND ville you would either bridge or be painfully close.
S/B 59th Lex is a scary one when your leader is keeping it at danger.
Slants make it all seem worse because of all that car in front of you blocking your view of the IJ or trip arm.
In general, I've found that needing to key an automatic or pull up tight on some homeballs is a lot scarier in the B Div, because the trip arm 'disappears' under the anti-climber. In the A Div, it's right under me -stand up and you can see it long after the arm goes down.
X36 is at the north end of the northbound 4th Ave express, but that's not what he hit. He said it was on 1 Track (SB Local) at 36 St, which should be X54.
And it's nice 'they' are letting you guys get away with hitting homeballs. Someone in my class hit a homeball at E.180 (probably the same one; it's notorious for being slow) and was shown back to his C/R's cab.
Some of the Off The Street people are not that off the street. They have relatives that are TSS', neighbors/drinking buddies/people they did work for that are Supts. that never hurts.
The Supts don't want stuff on their lines records and will have people bailed out if only for their own reasons. Once control gets more than a hint of the sotry it gets harder.
You are right they are more likely to send people back to former titles. Part of the problem is if you have a job to go back to you are sometimes less likely to fight. This also allows them to be tough and still not worry about making people homeless, not that that is a legit way to assign discipline.
Control Center has an idea of what's going on. Everyone knows that "off the street" T/O's are hitting signals left and right.
One day, a new T/O hit an automatic, and called it in. Control said, "Say that again T/O, your coming in broken up". T/O repeated himself, and Control said, "We can't hear you T/O, are you having a problem". The T/O didn't get the message, so finally the poor guy at Control had to do something.
This is exactly why I hear crew room talk about a class action lawsuit against the TA. People who have been demoted and fired over incidents that the TA is forgiving "off the street" T/O's for, are talking about taking action. We'll see if it's just talk.
Well gentleMen verdict has come down after my 2 week non paid vacation I will once again see the C/R board. I have been officially demoted Sice I am not B div C/R qualified I will be Extra platform in the B division.As LuchAAA says they are tougher on promotional employees,I have already been contacted By several former employees about action being taken against Labor relations.The Union tried but it was to no avail it was shall we say quick and painless.So I am off to visit my Local Tavern.
Well THAT bites ... if it's ANY consolation (which I'm sure it isn't) at least you had a fallback. Then again, that might also be the reason why they took it. I'd definitely grieve if at all possible. Then again, it looks like you've already been through talking that out as well. Wish I could buy you a beer, but I'm over 150 miles away from ya.
That's amazing. So you took the open competitive, went to T/O, had one incident, got two weeks in the street, and now you're going back to your previous title?
sorry... can you get repromoted in a few picks?(or possibly the next one?)
Well, I can only say that is really petty of the TA. I can understand from a safety perspective that they don't want people hitting homeballs, but there is a slight difference between just hitting one which is too damn close to a stop marker and hitting one dangerously at 40mph. What dickheads! Hard luck, RushHourSpecialist.
It sounds like the problem isn't the T/O but a design flaw at the station. Why should the T/O be at fault if he/she needs to thread a needle?
Government management here is done by the numbers. MBDF's, Performance reviews and numbers disciplined. Much like MickeyD's ("over a billion served") it all comes down to the numbers. An EFFECTIVE management processes so many a year, slip below the numbers and you get reviewed for poor performance. So every now and then, you've got to toss bodies overboard or you're derelict in duty. And so it goes - that's why I quit state service. It never made much sense and then it started making less.
I totally agree after 22 1/2 years of doing the c/r and t/o thing. There is a certain level of performance expected out of me just as a certain level of performance is expected out of the equipment. If I have a bad day, I just made my last move. Not being in a financial and family position to make a change at 49 1/2 years old, all I can strive for is the eventual pension check. Hopefully it will happen on my terms and not on those to the TA medical staff.
Geez ... you're a young pup. Heh. Got about 3 years on ya, buddy. Just recite the mantra ... two and a half or bust ... two and a half or bust. :)
I stayed around long enough to VEST. Good enough. Heh.
At one time in my life, I thought I had a handle on the meaning of the
word "service." The act of doing things for other people. Then I heard
the terms Internal Revenue Service, Postal Service, Civil Service,
Service Stations...
And I became confused about the word "service."
This is not what I thought "service" meant. Then one day, I overheard
two farmers talking and one of them mentioned that he was having a bull service a few of his cows.
SHAZAM!!
It all came into perspective.
Now I understand what all those "service" agencies are doing to us...
He has 5.5 left unless there is another buyout. 25 AND 55.
Yipe! Even gladder I didn't stick around. Here's hoping there'll be an "incentive program" then. And I *fully* expect there will be. Once the elections are over, the layoffs will begin. The state and the city are *WAY* short of cash but of course bad news isn't let out until after November. Probably won't be any firings, but generous incentives are to be expected ...
Whoops ... wasn't as clear as I should have been. What I'm expecting is what Paturkey did when he first came in (my FIRST of several "furloughs" before I got tired of playing "kick the can" on the wrong side of the game) ... provisionals, byebye - early retirement with bonus years, yada yada. Abolition of unique titles, that kinda stuff.
Your lucky to have onlt 5.5 years left. I just started my 8th years in T/A and have another 26 years to go before I hit 55, now I have to work untill I am 59 to pay off my new house in NJ.
Robert
He has 5.5 I have 23.5 left. You are in the worst position of all. If you go for TSS in 2003/4 your name might come up in 2004/6 and by that time you should be able to get yard or switching at full pay. That is a REAL dilema.
Of course if you do not want supervision you will be laughing at me while I sweat like a pig on some 9 hour 4 trip J job.
We got the same amount of time to do on the whole. I'm just a little bit further along. 11 in and 23 to go. Good luck with the house.
Thats ok I figure I have 35 to 40 years to go.
Your lucky to have onlt 5.5 years left. I just started my 8th years in T/A and have another 26 years to go before I hit 55, now I have to work untill I am 59 to pay off my new house in NJ. When I reture The R-450's sould be the new trains comming in.
Robert
Government management here is done by the numbers.
We've got the same sorta @$$ho£e$ over here.
slip below the numbers and you get reviewed for poor performance.
I never had too much time for statistics. The scope for lying with them seems to negate much of their usefulness and if an economic argument is the result, you can just about triple the doubt.
Maybe the Commies were onto something... EUGH!!! Maybe not...
Governments *RUN* on Powerpoint presentations. Nothing gives them a proper stiffy like a coloured pie chart that rivals the 1967 subway map. :)
Governments *RUN* on Powerpoint presentations. Nothing gives them a proper stiffy like a coloured pie chart that rivals the 1967 subway map. :)
LOL - I think I prefer the 1967 Subway Map - especially with such great lines as the MJ Train and the #8 Train!!!
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does it mean to "hit the Homeball?" I didn't see that term in the glossary on this site. :)
Homeball is the slang for an interlocking signal (usually governs a switch). When the homeball (or any signal for that matter) is at danger, the associated stop arm is in the tripping position. If a train passes such a signal, the emergency brakes will apply. This is called 'hitting a homeball'.
Look what I found on Forgotten Ohio, an urban exploration site.
http://www.forgottenoh.com/PATransit/patransit.html
LOL. Yeah that's weird. My girlfriend has met the guy who writes Forgotten Ohio. Too bad that we don't have a car.
AEM7
Is this one of the last cars from the Drake line?
Yes, it's one of the PCC's rebuilt for service on the Drake line. It's owned by the same guy who has a farm in Buckeye Lake, OH (east of Columbus) on which he stores about 25 electric cars, all in differing stages of collapse.
Frank Hicks
>>It's owned by the same guy who has a farm in Buckeye Lake, OH (east of Columbus) on which he stores about 25 electric cars, all in differing stages of collapse.<<
What's the point of saving some PCC cars only to rust and rot. I've seen pictures of them and they are slowly rotting. Being that it costs thousand of dollars to move such a vehichle, not to mention the big bucks it costs to buy it, what is his goal anyway? Maybe he is eccentric and has the money to waste. PCC cars are in high demand by heritage lines and San Francisco. But to buy them a let 'em sit and rust......truly baffles me.
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe he is eccentric and has the money to waste. PCC cars are in high demand by heritage lines and San Francisco. But to buy them a let 'em sit and rust......truly baffles me.
Maybe he likes owning them. Obviously, the reason the other heritage lines didn't get them was because they didn't bid high enough...
AEM7
Most of the PCC's this guy owns are ex-Shaker Heights cars - a total of ten of them, six Pullmans and two St. Louis-built cars. They were retired in the early 1980's, around the time Muni was retiring many of its PCC cars. As for the Pittsburgh cars, I'm not entirely sure why Muni missed the boat on them. They bought two cars just recently that PAT had held onto; nearly all of the others were preserved elsewhere.
4001 - on display on PAT property
4002 - owned by a Pittsburgh business
4003 - privately owned, Pennsylvania
4004 - owned by Pennsylvania Trolley Museum
4005 - scrapped
4006 - privately owned, Ohio
4007 - on display in Pittsburgh
4008 - bought by San Francisco Muni
4009 - bought by San Francisco Muni
4010 - privately owned, Pennsylvania
4011 - privately owned, Ohio
4012 - privately owned, Ohio
Frank Hicks
Recent article in the Cincinnati Inquirer
--Mark
Neat article - thanks for posting it, Mark! I can imagine what the great Dr. Thomas Conway might say: "That's fine, but you're about 75 years too late!"
Frank Hicks
or "Better late than never!"
--Mark
okay, 2nd Ave or Cincinnati? a pool?
My own sad guess is Cincy before 2nd Ave. (I believe I am committed to a sandwich at Katz's to someone when the 2nd opebs.)
okay, 2nd Ave or Cincinnati? a pool?
The answer is neither. The pool in my backyard would be built first (even if I don't even yet own a home).
I think that the Cincinnati scheme would be killed, replaced by a bunch of buses probably, so in a sense we would see the conclusion of that first. The 2nd Ave el would never die, but it would probably never be built either. It's a bit like Amtrak.
AEM7
This news release came from Amtrak Wednesday afternoon:
==================================
National Railroad Passenger Corporation
60 Massachusetts Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20002
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Media Relations, 202 906-3860
ATK-02-116
August 14, 2002
MORE ACELA EXPRESS TRAINSETS RETURN TO SERVICE
WASHINGTON – Following near-completion of the inspection process, a
total of five Acela Express trainsets have been cleared for service. As a result, train service in the Northeast
tomorrow will include 10 Acela Express departures (five between
Washington and Boston and five between Washington and New York) as well as continuing Metroliner and regional service.
Throughout today, Amtrak continued to accommodate passengers with
at-least hourly departures during peak periods of the morning and afternoon at major stations in the Northeast.
Two of the Acela Express trainsets, which were found not to have the
defect, were returned to service early this morning. Each trainset made one trip between Washington and Boston and between Washington and New York. Following each trip, the trainsets were put through a rigorous inspection to ensure the structural integrity of the yaw damper bracket cracks and fractures first detected Monday.
The inspections of Amtrak’s high-speed Acela Express trainsets are
nearing completion this afternoon. As of mid-day today, 16 of the 18 trainsets have been inspected with 11 having some deficiency in one or more brackets. These deficiencies range from small cracks to
fractures in the stainless steel brackets. The trainsets were removed
from service late Monday after a crack in a damper bracket was discovered during a periodic maintenance inspection. (A yaw damper is similar to a shock absorber.)
Officials of the Bombardier-Alstom consortium, manufacturers of the
trainsets, are scheduled to present Amtrak with a temporary remedy later today. The suggested change, a thicker version of the bracket, will be thoroughly tested by Amtrak and federal rail safety
officials before it is installed on the trainsets. No timetable for the full return of Acela Express service has yet been determined.
Amtrak will continue to offer those passengers who hold Acela Express
tickets and who travel instead on Acela Regional or Metroliner service a credit for the difference between the fares. Passengers are encouraged to check departures by logging onto www.amtrak.com or
calling 1-800-USA-RAIL for full information on train schedules and
availability.
Online Washington Post article from Wednesday evening says all Acela Express trainsets may be back in service Monday with a temporary fix approved by FRA. Brackets to be attached to the yaw damper will be inspected daily.
Now there is a crisis well handled. When faced with a HRTI, some management impose blanket restrictions (i.e. CSX, Railtrack), others actually deal with it sensibly (i.e. Amtrak with respect to the Acela bracket fiasco).
AEM7
Nope ... story's changed, more cracks, more woes, all stopped again. But I'm sure they'll have money now to rent the Rensselaer train station. (sorry couldn't resist) ... :)
But Acela Trains do not stop at the Rensselaer train station.
And BTW: when is Joe Patky or whoever going to start commuter trains up there. That is why they are building stations isn't it : ) hehehehe....
Elias
Nope, no acelas ... the tracks ain't fit to handle them anyway even though a good portion of them between Rensselaer and NYC are on Metro North and well maintained CP rail ... I think the limit's 110 but only in certain areas, so putting Acela on these rails would be a REAL waste of money (I'm actually surprised our politicos aren't demanding THIS too now).
As to "commuter trains" (if you mean to the city) there isn't quite ENOUGH traffic to justify it (though perhaps extending MNRR to Hudson, NY might be). If you mean the "CDTA commuter trains" the very same politicos that are sticking it to Amtrak now (Bruno, Sweeney and Pataki) are the ones that KILLED the local commuter rail project because it wouldn't have run ENTIRELY in their legislative districts and the cost of building working track was insane. So instead, that commuter rail would have had to connect our local "cities" through a democrat's district where people who would have used it actually *live* so they stuffed that idea.
Now for the GOOD part - the proposed $2.1 billion SARATOGA station would have been the northern end of the commuter rail and Rensselaer (which we've all heard so much about) would have been the southern terminus. Instead, they're trying to jack AMTRAK to run all that and the AMTRAK runs follow the EXACT route of what was turned down as "commuter rail" here. Just another clarification as to why I keep harping on all this.
If civilians tried this nonsense, they'd be in jail. :)
"the proposed $2.1 billion SARATOGA station would have been the northern end of the commuter"
I hope you made a mistake of a factor of 1000 there.
My bad ... yes, I did screw up - wrong side of the "n" key there ...
Then again, a billion here, a billion there and soon you're talking real money. :)
Nope, no acelas ... I think the limit's 110 but only in certain areas, so putting Acela on these rails would be a REAL waste of money
Actually, the Acela's advantage does not lie with its speed but with its ACELAration and the ability to tilt. If a curve is good for 30mph, Acelas can probably belt through it at 45mph (as long as it is welded rail). In fact putting Acela on dumbass track is a better use of resources than putting it on 135mph track on which even Metroliners can do 125mph.
AEM7
Majority of the run betwixt NYC and Smallbany (in deference to a heckler heh) is pretty good and fast - rarely below 60 (curves included) and often up to near 100 ... in other words, speed lovers would love to see more I'm sure, but the ride is certainly more than adequate as it is now. I'd hate to see expensive Acelas wasted on the run when the rebuilt Rohr Turbos do *just* fine on it.
But if they want to put Shinkansen on there, I won't whine. :)
As the politicos twirl, the CDTA, which received state and federal funding and pressure to build from politicians, now prepares to remove egg from the faces of lawmakers, falls on sword ... wow.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=55461&category=REGION&newsdate=8/15/2002
For those who have followed this story since it first started, let the coverup begin ...
In case people haven't heard, the Market-Frankford Line is not operating between Srring Garden and 30th St. Shuttle buses are filling in. My trolley driver this morning said it was because of problems with power.
Mark
They're all off the road again. Details from WCBS Newsradio-880
Amtrak Press Release
Yo WHat the Hell is this?? Man, at this rate, I can kiss my Boston trip Goodbye until next month or whenever.
In the short run, Amtrak can use overhauled, 25K volt capable electrics and paired Genesis units. When the throttles are opened up, two Genesis units can pull a train at well over 100 mph and hit curves on a par with the electrics. The only problem is that we'd be back to engine changes in New Haven. Maybe Amtrak could cut that process to 10 minutes from 20-30...
The only problem is that we'd be back to engine changes in New Haven.
Err, no. If they are down to using Genesis on the NEC, they would run them right through. Are Genesises permitted in the Hudson Tubes? If not, they will probably run services that requires a change at New York Penn, with the BOS-NYP portion being diesel hauled and the NYP-WAS section being electric.
AEM7
Can't run diesels into NYP from either direction. When they had Wash-Bos service before electrification, the engine change was in New Haven.
Diesels regularly run into NYP from the North. This discussion has come up before. The reason for the NHV engine change is because the wires ended there.
AEM7
The "diesels" coming into NYP from the north are dual-mode and enter NYP with third rail electric power.
"Diesels regularly run into NYP from the North."
Not sure about the north. That is a fairly unused tunnel; nothing there but the much-maligned Albany trains. Further, it's an intermittent tunnel under streets and parks with lots of opportunities for ventilation, not under a river. I guarantee you diesels are not permitted into NYP from the east or west, and haven't been permitted for any of our lifetimes.
OK, where is the tunnel between NHV and NYP? There's something that I need to learn here.
AEM7
"OK, where is the tunnel between NHV and NYP? There's something that I need to learn here."
The LIRR tunnels under the East River.
The Amtrak trains from New Haven run on the same tracks as Metro North to New Rochelle, then split south to run down the East Bronx, then cross over the Hellgate Bridge into Queens, then join up with the LIRR in Sunnyside, then use the LIRR tracks into NYP.
In contrast, the trains from Albany share the MN Hudson line tracks to the north end of Manhattan, then cross over into Manhattan on the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge, then run at ground level and under Henry Hudson Park down into the 50s, then run underground and/or in an open cut to the 30s where they do some kind of complex maneuver to run through the west side yard into NYP.
Damn, that's why it takes forever to get from CP-SHELL into NYP after crossing the Hells Gate Bridge. So the East River Tunnels require dual modes, as do the Hudson Tubes. I wonder what would happen if Amtrak claim "emergency operating conditions" and decide to allow one diesel train per hour through the tunnels. Maybe the diesels will overheat. Maybe they have to buy some "Tunnel Motors".
Incidentally, I don't think that section is owned by the LIRR. I believe Amtrak owns both the Hudson Tubes and the East River Tunnels.
AEM7
Its a joint operation zone. They split operation duties and costs 50/50. Amtrak might hold the physial title tho.
I thought that was the deal with NJTransit over the Hudson Tubes. I believe LIRR is always getting screwed. Or Phil Nasadowski seems to think so.
AEM7
I always thought it was the other way around, Amtrak has full ownership of the Hudson Tunnels, while LIRR and Amtrak share ownership of Penn Station and the East River Tunnel, and all that stuff. Thus NJT is definately the minor partner in all this, having mere trackage rights over all the track from Sunnyside to Trenton, Amtrak can screw NJT into the tubes, and LIRR or Amtrak can screw NJT out of slots at NYP.
And as for Amtrak using Genesi through throughout the NEC in place of AEM7s or E60s pulled for the Acelas, there would need to be something in place to get the trains through the Hudson Tunnels. There is third rail, but apparantly it has been unused in several years, and as such it would be kinda problematic to run passenger trains through the Hudson Tunnels. It would need to be engine change from older AEM7s (can't operate on 25kv, right) to P42s or something at New Haven, right back to the late ninties.
I always thought it was the other way around, Amtrak has full ownership of the Hudson Tunnels...
Amtrak has full ownership of Hudson Tunnels, but chooses to share the dispatching duties with NJTransit due to the NJTransit capital investment in the new dispatching center. LIRR has paid Amtrak nothing towards its capital investment on the east side, and thus should rightfully be screwed over by Amtrak.
E60s pulled for the Acelas
E60s are only rated for 11kV, if I remember right. All AEM-7's are tri-voltage, 11kV, 12.5kV and 25kV. Don't expect engine changes -- far too time consuming. Far more likely scenario is everybody changes trains, cross platform transfers. I still think they will forcefully run P42's into Penn, if push comes to shove. However, Amtrak currently has more of a coach shortage (even in the Amfleet fleet) than locomotive shortage. That said, with the HHP-8's gone, this could change very fast.
I wonder if we would see AEM-7 hauled Acela coaches.
AEM7
I wonder if we would see AEM-7 hauled Acela coaches.
Doubt it. The Acela coaches only couple to each other and to the Acela motors. Progress marches backwards.
Ok, sorry, I didn't know that the AEMs were tri-power, I thought the big thing with the ALP44Ms was that they could switch between all three power types, or was it that it could do it on the fly, or can the AEM7s do that also? Oh well, anyway...
Hmmm, AEM7s with Acela coaches? Sounds good to me, now if only we could get traps for low floor operations, but that's undoubtedly too much to ask for. Still, there must be a way to couple a Acela Coach to an AEM7, after all, those NYCTA diesel switchers can couple to R cars. Like here, a GP7 pulling R44s, impossible cause the couplers, yet done:
Lets see, the coupler is utterly incompatible, yet there should be a way to either create an adaptor, or to modify a certain number of acela first class cars to accept more standard couplers. After that there remains but to get the HEP cables along with them, here I hit a hard spot. Do the Acela cars use a standard voltage, or is alstom once again up to their old tricks? Oh, and is the end door one of those thin automatic sliding doors like on all other cars? That would need to be fixed, since the AEM7, or my fantasy AEM8 would undoubtedly kick up some garbage at that first car, the flimsy supermarket door wouldn't do.
Heck, it may be cheaper to just scrap the Acela power cars, go all AEM7, ALP46/Class101/AEM8, or HHP-8, if we ever get them back. It would probably be cheaper to just adapt the Acelas than actually pay Alstom to fix the Acelas.
Do the Acela cars use a standard voltage, or is alstom once again up to their old tricks?
I think that was one of the things Amtrak management and Alstom disagreed over. Alstom wanted to use non-standard techniques like shared trucks and other such nonsense to get better performance and price/performance ratio, but Amtrak management insisted on flexibility. That thing about the brakes -- I'm guessing that Alstom insisted on a type of brake that was not generally compatible with the NEC fleet, but Amtrak insisted on something that is more compatible, but untested. So Alstom warned Amtrak that the "compatible" brakes are prone to freezing up...
The trouble is, if you want to use European designs, they are necessarily incompatible with the existing American designs. But existing European designs are the only things that have been extensively tested. If you went for an European tested design, however, you run the risk of what I had described earlier, unforseen "environmental" problems, and you also make things a lot more maintenance heavy and inflexible.
Oh, and is the end door one of those thin automatic sliding doors like on all other cars?
No, the ends of the Acela coaches are sealed off (like you see in that picture).
AEM7
"Amtrak has full ownership of Hudson Tunnels, but chooses to share the dispatching duties with NJTransit due to the NJTransit capital investment in the new dispatching center. LIRR has paid Amtrak nothing towards its capital investment on the east side, and thus should rightfully be screwed over by Amtrak. "
You may have your commuter lines backward for part of that. According to both the NJT gang and the LIRR gang over at railroad.net, Penn Station dispatching is rotated every 6 months between Amtrak and LIRR personnel.
CG
According to an article in TRAINS recently -- sometime last year when they covered Penn Station dispatching -- it's Amtrak and NJTransit.
AEM7
Okay - so the electric Acela trains are ****ed up, diesel isn't allowed under the Hudson - anyone fancy a steam train?
Tune to Channel 4 at 5 pm, they are gonna have a story on the Acela Express.
Diesels sometimes go into Penn for work or emergency reasons, but in normal operations, you never see them. Even when the FL-9s ran, since they couldn't run E mode in Penn, they used an AEM-7 to tow them out. There's a mile or so of wires on the line to allow this. Go figure.
You get dual modes from the Hudson line and the LIRR, but no diesels.
Oh yes, the LIRR owns Harold, which Amtrak passes over. Amtrak owns F, though, I think.
HAROLD might be under the control of PSCC at least part time now. The LIRR has physical title to HAROLD interlocking.
That's a very reasonable solution. It also may explain why I saw a pair of Genesis engines pulling a long-distance train southbound toward Wilmington DE the other day.
The reason E-60's and Genesises are still used on some long-distance trains on the NEC is because if the train is hauling a freight boxcar that does not have "gradual release brakes" then the AEM-7's and HHP-8's can't haul them. The brakes would take forever to come off once they are applied. I was surprised to find this out the other day, from a PHL conductor.
AEM7
Thank you for posting that.
If the Genesis is indeed allowed to traverse the NEC, then by definition it, too, need not "change engines at New Haven." Therefore, it can help pinch hit while the Acelas get fixed.
I believe the Genesis units cannot reach 125 mph, though, so it is important to schedule them so that they don't unnecessaruily delay the Metroliners.
It does boggle the mind how long it takes to switch engines.
Doesn't. Ask Jersey Mike about clearing permissive signals and brake tests.
AEM7
[evil laugh]..................okay, okay, im over it. honestly, if the acelas are puled for your trip, ill feel bad when i stop laughing. Just out of curiousity, you're sleeping over in boston. Is tht in order to get an early express? I myself want to take 2153 south. But then again, if i do, I'd take it down to DC. For some reason, whenever I took a metroliner to DC, it was always the 10:00, even when I didn't chose the train. Weird, huh?
Maybe Amtrak needs to get the Alstom experts in this situation, maybe they can do something about these damn cracks.
I recently came across a website that purports to show abandoned rails and tunnels under Chinatown, Hell's Kitchen and Bowery. I can't identify the locations of any of the places depicted in the photos, and I thought I was pretty knowledgable about abandoned facilities in NYC.
Here's the link:
http://www.darkpassage.com/postmortems/hopping.html
Can anyone shed some light here? Thanks!
Chinatown - old "Nassau loop" tracks that went byebye with the Chrystie connection. Hell's Kitchen is a diversion off the current Amtrak Penn-Hudson line, I *think* it used to connect to the "High line" through a yard and connection in that area that's no longer there. That one was NEVER subway, but New York Central Railroad. And the "Bowery" bit IS the Chrystie connection's replacement which brought the "KK" over the Williamsburg and connected it to the 6th Avenue line from the MANHATTAN bridge ...
I'm sure others will provide other details on them, but that's the general concept. Only the "Hell's Kitchen" one is TRULY abandoned, the other two COULD be resurrected some day.
Just to be clear: the Bowery one is the tunnel connecting the BMT Nassau line and the IND 6th Ave line? Interesting.
The "Bowery one" is the connection between the Willie B and second avenue over which the KK once ran. Been out of service since they killed its descendent, the "K" train. The "Chinatown one" is the old Nassau loop which was disconnected when the connection to the Broadway BMT was moved from the NORTH to the SOUTH side of the Manny B. Originally, the south side of the Manny B fed the Nassau St loop while Broadyway expresses were on the North side.
Does that help?
Yes, thanks. But I thought the tunnel depicted in the photo of the Nassau-6th Avenue track looked a lot older architecturally than it would look if it were built in the '60s.
There's also one photo of a tunnel without tracks. Where is that?
They did supposedly remove a piece of the KK tracks if I remember what I read here recently is right. Take a look at the trackmaps for lower manhattan ... it'll make a LOT more sense if you look at it. There were a LOT of changes to the track layouts down there as a result of Chrystie. It wouldn't surprise me if that particular piece was where the old BMT Broadway line came up and met the north side of the Manny B ... it now runs to the south side, so that would have been removed for Chrystie ...
That's probably what they are. While on the subject of the Chrystie St Connection. I wonder why they completely severed the Nassau tracks from the Manhattan Bridge. Couldn't they leave a switch in for occasional reroutes, or GO's, or even equipment moves. Why did they totally disconnect it?
Damn if I know. Had they left things ALONE, there'd be many more possibilities for GO's and such and having both 6th Avenue AND the BMT meet both sides of the bridge, then service would only be curtailed with the outage rather than being stopped entirely.
Civil service tends to attract the BEST brains willing to work for crap wages. What can I say? :)
I must say that Dark Passages is an interesting site.
Even more interesting is a statement they make:
"We do not announce upcoming expeditions or events to the public. Nor do we give out the locations of the unnamed asylums on these pages. The reason is, simply, that we don't want to make it any easier for those who are looking for spaces to vandalize. Which is also why some of our favorite locations are kept entirely private and remain unpublished here."
This statement also says to me that they are accessing the areas they are photographing illegally and they don't want the TA or any other authority to know about it.
Well, it is their life. Nothing any of us can do about it.
http://www.amtrak.com/giveaway/index.html
Amtrak.com $20,000 Travel Awards Giveaway, $500 in Travel Awards to 2 Winners Daily
Enter for a chance to win $500 in Amtrak travel awards — which may be redeemed for Amtrak travel. Amtrak will select two winning entries daily between August 14 and September 2, 2002. Great giveaways aren't the only benefit of visiting Amtrak.com. Buy your tickets online August 14 through September 2, 2002 and save 20%.
AEM7
Interesting link....I'm entered! -Nick
from the A.P>
Amtrak Again Pulls All Acela Trains
Thu Aug 15, 7:38 AM ET
By LAURENCE ARNOLD, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - Amtrak canceled all of its high-speed Acela Express service in the Northeast again after raising new concerns about a piece of equipment underneath the locomotives.
The decision was made after a more rigorous inspection of one train that had been cleared to return to service Thursday morning in the Boston-New York-Washington corridor, Amtrak spokesman Bill Schulz said.
"They found cracks that had not been previously detected," he said.
All 18 Acela Express trains, important moneymakers for Amtrak, were pulled from service Tuesday after inspectors discovered cracks in brackets that attach shock-absorbing "yaw damper assemblies" to the locomotives.
Thursday's decision represented the second cessation of all Acela trains week.
Two trains that passed the inspection returned to action Wednesday, and Amtrak had planned to add three more on Thursday. The new problem was discovered on one of those three, Schulz said, prompting the decision to cancel all Acela Express service for the day.
As was the case earlier this week, Amtrak planned to put additional conventional trains into service to fill the gap.
The five Acela Express trains were due to make a total of 10 departures. Schulz said Amtrak will still over more than 100 departures in the Northeast Corridor.
The new discovery brings to 12 the number of train sets found to have some crack or break in a yaw damper assembly which serves as a sort of shock absorber.
It also complicates efforts by Amtrak and the train's manufacturers, Bombardier of North America and France's Alstom Ltd., to design a temporary fix that will allow all 18 train sets to return to duty.
In a note sent Wednesday to Amtrak workers, Amtrak President David Gunn said the trains could return to service in a few days if a temporary fix gets the approval of railroad and federal government officials.
"But I don't want to raise expectations here," Gunn wrote. "The problem is serious and will require a permanent solution. We are not out of the woods by any measure."
The bullet-nosed trains can travel at speeds up to 150 mph. Until this week, Amtrak typically sent 15 of the trains into duty each day.
Amtrak officials said they feared the yaw damper assemblies could fall off a moving train, damaging its underside or possibly derailing another train. The function of the yaw dampers is to prevent swaying, which can increase wear and tear to rails and train wheels.
Carol Sharpe, a spokeswoman for Bombardier, said the company sent Amtrak 40 replacement brackets that are "sturdier and thicker" than the ones initially installed on the trains. She said testing on the new parts was continuing.
The two trains that returned to service, plus the others that were to have been placed back on the tracks Thursday, were inspected at the end of each trip and showed no signs of problems, Amtrak said.
The first problem was discovered Monday during a periodic maintenance inspection of an Acela Express train in Boston. Amtrak pulled all the trains out of service on Tuesday and filled scheduled gaps with slower trains. About 10,000 people ride Acela Express trains on a typical weekday.
I was just viewing the live camera at http://nyctmc.org/xqueens.asp#
at Queens Blvd and 36 St and notice there was Graffiti on the outer part of the number 7 station platform. Did they ever catch the artist as the result there is a live camera right there?
Often the images are not recorded. Recording the image would cost too much in storage space. They probably record the thing on tapes that overwrites itself every 24 hours. Anyway the image quality is pretty poor. Even licence-plate recognition needs better image quality than what is available on that site. It's like the store video cams. They can't always catch the robber even if the store is under video surveyllance.
AEM7
I'm confused...how can you possibly see grafitti on the 33rd street station....I can barely tell what type of train is sitting there.
Is there some sort of way to increase the resolution in order to be able to pick out the details better?
My Favorite is the 4 line, its fast, has the most aggressive crew in the system. And offers the best express. So whats your favorite line and why?
you can tell i love the V train simply cause its so cool.all those who hate it have a serious disorder of some sort.i also like the 3 and the Q trains for the same reason.
With me, it's gotta be the #1----the first time I ever rode the subway was riding it from South Ferry to Times Square----Such a tourist....I can't wait for S.F to re-open---sentimental
i like the 1 a little bit because its my "hometown" line.the 1 is the train i always take to get to the rest of the subway. the only other train that's close to my house is the C
How do you get the 1 in red and the C in blue on your post? Can this be done in every colour?
Right click on any post and click "view source". You can get the codes to any of the neat littel tricks that come up in posts, or the web address for photos in posts.
Right click. Another one who assumes everyone uses a Wintel machine :-)
I can either just click and hilight View Source or go View --> Page Source in the menu bar. None of this remembering which button to click stuff.
All the while you have to move your mouse around more and search more for features.
There's a reason why there are two button (actually three if you count the wheel) Mac mice now.
Right click. Another one who assumes everyone uses a Wintel machine :-)
Yeah Linux rules. :)
View --> Page Source
This is how I learned HTML way back when, and IMO the best way to.
<font color=red>The letter you want in red
P.S. Don't ask how I got the < and the > to show up!!! Its a little trick I learned!!!
I think you have to turn it back to black after you change the color, otherwis the rest of the page will look like this:
Yeah, for some reason my closing didn't show up. You close the html with just the word font, not font=red.
it's <font color="red">This is red</font> and this isn't.
Greater than sign - & g t ; (no spaces between characters)
Less than sign - & l t ; (no spaces between characters)
Right, however for some reason it didn't work for the closing html.
Um, am I missing something? The only place where the < and > showed up was where you were bragging.
the codes < and > need to be separated from the rest of the text by whitespace.
Make that "<" and ">" need to be separated from the rest by whitespace.
Soem tags don't work as they should grrr...
It worked for me perfectly.
Worked in Netscape 7 too
the reason they didn't work for you is that you need to put a ; at the end of them.
Like this:
<
>
&
It worked for me perfectly.
Worked in Netscape 7 too
the reason they didn't work for you is that you need to put a ; at the end of them.
Like this:
<
>
&
Sorry about the last one, I violated the rules about previewing escape sequences.
So, you like the (1) and the (C), you say????
Well, I kinda like the (4) and the (6), and I love my (W)! (Well, used to love it)
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Rainbow of Mass Transit"
You know I think the (M) and (N) are da bestest!
This is what I like:
R-10s on the A at 81st St.
Now all I need is a 90- or 95-dB roar.
yes,most of them just type font color=red and youll see it come out.
but make sure you put a < before the word font and a > after typing the color you want to use otherwise it wont work. if you want to see it bold just type and it'll come out bold. to change it to normal type and thats that...as you can clearly see i guess,heh heh well just type b and put the <> on either side of it and to /b with <> on either side as well so it can change back to normal as you see above.
Most people I know think I'm nuts (then again I've already proven that with my love of R40 seats :), but my favorite line is the (R) (and I really have no clue why), with the (N) a close second (love the food, amongst other things in Astoria). Third would be the (A), just because I can get a prosciutto & fresh mozz hero at Pat's for lunch :)
The R????????? Well my fellow goomba, I know a good shrink you can go and see. I think he can help you. The R? My God, that is the slag heap of them all.
Most people I know think I'm nuts (then again I've already proven that with my love of R40 seats :), but my favorite line is the (R)
lol...How about those "comfortable" seated R40 trains on everyone's "favorite" line - the R.... I guess you'd be in heaven. :)
lol...How about those "comfortable" seated R40 trains on everyone's "favorite" line - the R.... I guess you'd be in heaven. :)
Well, I guess the closest I came to that would have been the J to 95th. But I wouldn't quite count that as it didn't run on Broadway. So I was halfway to heaven I guess :)
I like the 1/9 because it's the line used by my favorite composer, Bela Bartok, when he lived in NYC, and I used when I went looking for and found his house. I also like the 4/5/6 because I took a ride on it with my fiance shortly before we started dating. None of these are favorites for anything to do with the trains themselves, but more for happy memories I have of them.
Mark
A nice memory indeed.
I have a few favorites. Here they are, with my reasons for liking them.
(1) The IRT Flushing Line (7)
Its elevated for much of its length and has two cool express runs (Qnsboro Plaza - Woodside and Woodside - Junction Blvd). It also features some interesting scenery - Shea Stadium, old 2nd Ave el trackage, et al. I also like riding the old WF cars. Nice and rattly.
(2) The BRT/BMT Jamaica/Nassau Line (J,Z)
This line is also elevated for much of its length and has a lot of interesting BRT/BMT elements. These include:
>The phantom 3rd track on the Jamaica Ave portion of the line;
>The ironwork for the original (BRT) Cypress Hills station;
>The 19th century stations over Fulton Street;
>Passing over two abandoned LIRR facilities ([Richmond Hill station and the site of the Brooklyn Manor station);
>The interesting "ironwork to nowhere" soaring above the Eastern Parkway station;
>The abandoned Broadway station over the Myrtle Avenue station;
>The nifty express run from Myrtle to Marcy Avenue;
>The remaining ironwork of the portion of the line that ran from Marcy to Fulton Ferry;
>The exciting ride over the Willy B;
>The old trolley station at Essex Street;
>The lay-up trackage that was once part of the Nassau Loop; and
>The ornate Chambers Street station.
This line is a railfanners delight.
(3) The IRT Lexington Avenue line (4,5,6)
I like the speed of the expresses and marveling at the original 1904 stations. I also like watching for the 18th Street and Worth Street stations to see if I can snatch a glance at the old masonry.
Mine is very similar to yours actually.
1. My favorite is the M line, also including the J for the reasons you gave. The Broadway-Jamaica el one of the most interesting in the city I feel. But I also like the M because it is very unique, in that after Seneca it takes it's own ROW, and in defiance of most of the els, you are "looking" into people's backyard windows instead of the front of buildings, and is one of the few els that doesn't "ruin" a street below (other examples being in cuts or on fill, not els). At the end you get a good look at Fresh Pond yard, and the NYCRR bridge, and LIRR/NYA Fresh Pond Yard as it crosses the Montauk line.
Actually you mentioned Chambers street. I really like the Nassau subway, it has a lot of character. As for the Chambers Street station, even though it is in total shambles, it has a glow of elegance. It must have been some station in it's day. I find the Nassau line one of the most interesting lines in the system.
2. Next I like the 6 line. I love the southern end of the Lexington Line, and I like the Pelham el.
3. Finally, third would be the N line. The Broadway line is one of my favorite lines in Manhattan, especially now that they are restoring the mosaics. The Astoria El is a cool little el, and the Sea Beach is very unique....Now if only they would restore the mosaics on 4th Ave.
Chris
IN ORDER MINE ARE
NUMBER ONE IS THE F. I JUST LOVE THE ENTIRE LINE AND ESPECIALLY GOING OUTSIDE IN THE END
NUMBER 2 IS THE E. WHY? LOL I JUST TEND TO LOVE THE TRAIN I LIVE NEAR FOR THE LAST 14 YEARS
NUMBER 3 IS THE NUMNBER 2 LINE! NOTHING BEATS A REDBIRD DOWN THE 7 AV EXPRESS
NUMBER 4 IS THE 4 LINE lol
AND THER 42ND SHUTTLE
HEY WHAT RAILROAD LINES DO EVERYONE LIKE?
I LOVE THE FAR ROCKAWAY AND HEMPSTEAD ON LIRR
AND NOTHING BEATS A SHORELINER III SERIES EXPRESS DOWN THE HUDSON WITH THE GENESIS ON THE TAIL!!!! ONLY MAKE 5 STOPS!!!!
OSSINING, TARRYTOWN, YONKERS, 125TH AND GRAND CENTRAL
Since you brought up "Favorite Railroad line":
-My fovorite commuter RR line is, I'll have to say the LIRR Montauk Branch - Meaning from LIC (lower Montauk) right out to Montauk itself.
-My favorite real RR line is the route of Amtrak's Adirondak (getting in MNRR's Hudson line in). A few years back, I took Amtrak from Rutland (Ethan Allen Express - also a cool little rural line through Vermont) to Whitehall to get the Adirondack.
I kind of like the look of Santa Fe's route between San Diego and Long Beach, California. I railfanned it a few times, but never rode it, if I did ride it, it may have knocked out the Adironak's route, st that Pacific surf route must be one hell of a ride right along the Pacific Ocean.
The Pacific Surfliner route from Los Angeles is great. It runs quite literally on the beach during some stretches, and just north of San Diego, it curves away from the ocean, running behind a mountain along the side of a beautiful canyon. What's more, the San Diego Coaster and Los Angeles Metrolink trains use parts of the same line, so you can railfan on three different systems over the route.
I also really like the stretch California Zephyr between Denver and Grand Junction, Colorado. It snakes along narrow mountain ledges and through the bottom of Glen Canyon along the banks of the Colorado River. Then there's the line, I can't remember the name, that runs north from NYC along the Hudson River banks. We ride that one to visit my fiance's family upstate. Truly beautiful.
My favorite commuter train line is the one and only line of Burlington, Vermont's Champlain Flyer. I like it because it might just be the world's smallest commuter rail system with one locomotive, two coaches, and three, count 'em three, station. Plus it has great views of Lake Champlain. That is, if it's still running, of course. I heard it was in danger awhile back.
Mark
What's more, the San Diego Coaster and Los Angeles Metrolink trains use parts of the same line, so you can railfan on three different systems over the route.
Yes, that Coaster is a great set of trains. And near San Diego you get the trollies also as they go up towards Old Town. Coaster stations are also very attractive. I was very busy along that line. Between Amtrak, Coaster, the trollies, and freight, it makes for a very busy day. The stretches along the ocean are spectacular. I wish I had time to ride the Coaster or Amtrak through there. I was only there a few days, and had only one day to railfan, so I chose to photograph the line instead of ride it - a good choice, as it was amazing.
I was riding from Los Angeles to San Diego. I chose to take Amtrak to Oceanside where I transfered to the Coaster for the rest of the trip. I was in San Diego for several days so I got to take lots of pictures, some with both the Coaster and the San Diego trolley in the same shot. My only regrets are that it was overcast most of the time, and the blue-and-aqua Coaster looks its best in bright sunlight, and that my picutres of the Santa Fe yard didn't come out well. There you can see tons of trolley consists and Coaster trains all clumped together!
Mark
Yeah, I was there a few days also, but was in the city in San Diego, so got to sneak in a few shots the other days here and there, in addition to the day I set aside to railfan. Luckily, I had one of those picture perfect weeks weather-wise when I was there . Crystal skies, and low to mid 70's temperature (and it was January), the whole time I was there. You are right, the color of the Coaster trains looks great with the dark blue Crystal skies!
Are you planning to post yourt picutres? I'd love to see them.
Mark
I am. Alot of them are slides, and I need to buy one of those "slide scanners". I've been too busy to go and look for one. I am planning to do it in the next few weeks though, when the craziness of the summer is over. I'll have more time then.
Chris
The good news is The Champlain Flyer is still running.
I tried to get a look and maybe take a ride a few weeks ago, but there was some equipment problem.
I think there are 4 stations.
There were only three when I rode it: Charlotte, Shelburne, and Burlington.
Mark
And thanks for the good news, too! I'm glad to hear it's still running.
By the way, does anyone have any resources on this train? I'm still working on a station-by-station report for this site to go along with the pictures I took. My problem is, there's not a whole lot to say in a station-by-station when there are only three stations! So if anyone has resources I can use to fill out my report, please let me know.
Thanks!
Mark
Actually, on a lot of Hudson Line trains nowadays, you can add Marble Hill to that list...i have ridden several trains that, after Croton-Harmon, made Ossining, Tarrytown, Yonkers, Marble Hill, 125th, and GCT.
My personal favorite Commuter RR lines are, in no particular order, NJT's Northeast Corridor, MNR's Hudson, Harlem, and New Haven Lines, and LIRR's Babylon line.
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Yes, I like Commuter RR, too!"
The LIRR Rockaway Line, in the portion between Valley Stream and Cedarhurst, also runs on a private ROW that runs between people's backyards. I always enjoy counting the swimming pools as train passes by.
About Chambers Street: I hope they never close off the abandoned side platform that's in full view. I'd rather they clean it up, relight it and put up signage pointing out the interesting portions of it for the benefit of riders waiting for uptown trains on the opposite platform.
You're right, Chambers must have been something when it was new. I think they're cleaning it up a bit; I remember some years back there were long wires hanging from the light fixtures in the station ceiling, suggesting that chandeliers once hung there. It must have been a very grand station indeed.
You like the Sea Beach---good. Now you are in my good graces.
Of course, in Bartok's time, it would have been the Broadway-7th Ave. local. Maybe I can convince the conductor of the orchestra I play for to do the Concerto for Orchestra someday.
I hope you get to play it! I sometimes play trumpet, and I think it'd be great fun to play the trumpet duet in which the two trumpets play parallel melodies one half step apart!
As for the 1/9 line, it also gives you good views of the 209th St yard and the Harlem River.
Mark
I played it in college. It was my last orchestra concert before I graduated. I got a taste of that famous timpani passage in the fourth movement - shifting odd meters and pitch changes all over the place to boot. Then there's that timp glissando in the fifth movement.... I have a tape of our performance. Had to dub in a missed cymbal crash in the first movement and a missed sixteenth-note double-stop of mine in the third movement.
My favorite subway line is A Line, because I like the R-44's and its very fast to where I wanna go, I also like the A Line, because it goes across that long Bay in Queens, its beautiful during the Summer.
Yes, but it crawls once it gets to the Beach streets.
Well It's almost to the end of the Line, so I don't care if it crawls, I like the long ride across the bay, I think that and the Express runs are the best.
My favorite has always been the Brighton Line in its various permutations (currently the Q), largely because it gives you a bit of all worlds -- underground, open cut, and elevated. Then, of course, there's the trip over the Manhattan Bridge.
IRT/BMT 7 FLUSHING
The best indeed. IRT trains with BMT-length stations. Also, a good railfanning opportunity.
The best indeed. IRT trains with BMT-length stations.
So the stations are all 600 ft long? If so, they should add 12 ft more platform at all the stations and run 12 car trains.
560 feet or thereabouts is more like it. An 11-car train just fits in each station.
The 1 and 9.
I think the Q is the best express. It used to have the most aggressive crew. They're not as ball-full anymore.
Take a guess.
Take a guess.
Well, let me see... this is Fred... has "Beach" in his handle... must be the Beach Pnuematic... after all, no one in their right mind would like the Slow Beach, and I don't think he's that crazy... or is he? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where is Bob when you really need him?:)
I got it - I got it! The LIRR Rockaway Beach line!!!
--Mark
My guess would be that you'd say N, Q, M, W in that order.
My favorite line is the 7 becuase the express is fast. It has my favorite redbirds R36WF. It was the first subway line i rode when i was a little kid. It has sentimental value to me , since i lived out in flushing before i moved out to long island.
Ohhh man, by far my favorite all time subway line is the A Line!! The A Line is the best line in the system!! I mean what other line do you go from being in the Latin neighborhoods of Washington Heights and Inwood, to the bustle of Midtown, to the business and high profile of Downtown, to the almost rural lands on the Flats (Howard Beach, Broad Channel), to the beautiful views of the Atlantic Ocean in the Rockaways??
Duke Ellington wrote a popular song about the A Line....not the W, not the F, not the E or the C, but the A LINE!! Operationally I like the R-44 and the R-32/38s, the express running is fast, and even if it is local the great outdoor run makes up for it, especially on a hot summer's evening, and the supervision gives me no troubles whatsoever. No matter the weather or the season the A Line is A # 1!!!
My feelings exactly. It was even better when the R-10s ruled supreme.
My favorite subway line is of course, the new lines W, V, diamond Q.
My all time favorite subway is the E M N Z and #5
The A. My handle says it all. It's not the same without the R-10s, but it's still the greatest.
The N is a sentimental favorite because that was the very first subway train I ever rode on. Well, I'm pretty sure it was, anyway. The side signs on those shiny new R-32s had "57th St." backlit in green, and that's as far as the N went in 1965.
Self explanatory!! But I guess I'll settle for the "W" ;-)
Ever seen this photo before?
That R-27 says it all, doesn't it?
Just heard on WCBS of a bus-titution between Babylon & Patchogue due to a "minor derailment". I am sick and tired over the use of this term. Knock off the public relations nonsense MTA. A derailment is a derailment. AN investigation takes place and the individual or a department at fault will hangs, no matter if one wheel derails or 8 wheels or multiple cars.
I wonder where it was between Babylon and Patchogue.
Sayville. Check the WCBS Web site for details.
Thanks, that's only about 10 minutes from where I am. Too bad I took my lunch break already, otherwise I would have driven down there.
Hmmm, what happened? The sprign switch at "Y" get stuck again? It used to do that a lot in winter in the 1960's.....
Steve, it is no longer a spring switch as of a few years ago where now it is a full fledged interlocking.
Okay, thanks...haven't been on LI in years. Thanks for the info.
Your view of it is very narrow. My view of it is multidimensional: yes, there will be an investigation to determine cause and appropriate response. That's fine.
If it is truly minor, I would hope that means the train can be reseated on the rails, repairs made and service restored more quickly than in the case of a major derailment.
Not to mention that a minor derailment implies few or no injuries to crew and riders. If that is the case, that's good news
Actually there is a difference between a minor (the train just somehow came off the rails, and can easily be repaired and no one hurt too bad) and a major derailment (ala Amtrak, with cars overturned and on their sides, and the whole train in a zig-zag position over where the tracks "used" to be.
Don't forget in the last few years we had spates of freight derailments that had to warrant evacuation of neighborhoods for miles, because you had serious derailments involving tank cars full of things like sulfuric acid, diesel fuels and various hazardous chemicals. So as you told Mr Ron, there is indeed a difference between a wheel coming off and a few hazardous chemicals cars going off the tracks, causing neighborhood evacuations.
Excellent points.
Wow! What LIRR Train was it?
Actually I think that's pretty sensible. When you say "derailment"
the public pictures some of the more colorful SLAMTrak wrecks, cars
telescoped, pluging into ravines, etc. etc. Technically Union
Square was a derailment too. Something where one wheel goes
down (not that I have any idea what happened in this LIRR incident)
is in a totally different league as far as cleanup and public
impact.
Excuse me but from one who has had to attend derailments, there is a difference. Compare a derailment where:
One axle - 2 wheels leave the rails.
Two cars derail - all wheels on the ground.
One car derails & track is torn up.
Several cars derail and tip over - track damage and toxic spill.
Several cars derail with one falling from the structure. Multiple injuries.
If you think that the classification of a derailment is a public relations gimmick, you need to look at the situation less emotionally.
Okay, this is my first time on SubTalk but here it goes.
The V train has been around since last year and people are complaining and moaning and etc. Well, here is my solution:
Extended the V train to 179th St so the F train can go back to being what it was...express! The V and F train will switch. The F train will return to 53rd St and the V train would use the NEW 63rd St line. The R train would be the ONLY train terminating at 71st/Continental Avs in Forest Hills. The G train will not change, however, since the V train is a weekday train, the G train will serve Forest Hills. The F train will run local to 75th Av whenever the V train stop running (Late Nights and Weekends I assume).
Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks for your time!
What line will serve the 63rd st Line nights and weekends? The resoning behind the F reroute is to provide 24 hr service to the 63rd
st line. I don`t think the TA will run the V 24/7. Maybe run the R via 63 st on weekends is an alternative.
extend the v to 179... good. switch f and v... why bother? people will get used to it sooner or later. with just the r terminating at 71st, bring back the g...
need a lot more cars to do it, but it'd worth it.
Wasn't there another thread just started recently about this?
The plan is unworkable. The current service plan serves riders very well, and makes the best use out of the new infrastructure. More improvements to the Court Sq transfer are in progress.
There will always be some whining (this is New York) but 900,000 daily riders in Queens are getting better service, and a much smaller number of Greenpoint riders (but still important to us!) are getting adequate service.
Okay, this is my first time on SubTalk but here it goes.
The V train has been around since last year and people are complaining and moaning and etc. Well, here is my solution:
Extended the V train to 179th St so the F train can go back to being what it was...express! The V and F train will switch. The F train will return to 53rd St and the V train would use the NEW 63rd St line. The R train would be the ONLY train terminating at 71st/Continental Avs in Forest Hills. The G train will not change, however, since the V train is a weekday train, the G train will serve Forest Hills. The F train will run local to 75th Av whenever the V train stop running (Late Nights and Weekends I assume). The V train will still be a local train along with the R train and the F and V will continue to be local on 6th Av especially when the B, D and Q trains return to 6th Av.
Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks for your time!
My opinion is the "E" should be Express all the time. Being that the "F" (or ideally the "V") stops at 75th Ave. and Briarwood-Van Wyck anyway, there is no need for the "E" to stop there. Those stations see such little use anyway, it's like what's the point?
Van Wyck Blvd. actually gets quite a bit of use, probably the most out of the four east-of-Continental local stops. I myself often park there to use the subway on Monday and Tuesday, the days where 179th St has alt-side restrictions.
:-) Andrew
Perhaps it's the time of day I ride. I usually get there around quarter to nine in the evening (in the Jamaica bound direction), and to me, it just seems like more of a hinderance than anything else. The "E" makes an extra stop at Jamaica-Van Wyck which the "F" does not, so I just feel the "E" should skip it at all times (At least 75th Ave. if nothing else).
Well it's unlikely it would skip one or the other and not both. That would mean switching tracks an extra time.
:-) Andrew
The E usually does skip Briarwood. The time saved out-bound is not that much because the E must travel slowly to cross two switches and negotiate the ramp leading to the Archer Av line. In bound it travels a bit faster.
Even so, skipping those two stops saves so little time I doubt it's worthwhile.
I agree. Except from a railfanning point of view, there is no point of the E skipping those stops and I feel that no matter how few people are at these stations, it wouldn't hurt to have it local with the F all times. What's the time lost? 80 seconds? Does it make any speed seeing as how it has to negotiate that switch coming off/onto the line east of Briarwood?
I just consider it a nuisance since I have to be at Parson's/Archer at 8:55, and the "E" makes an additional stop at Jamaica-Van Wyck. Just my two cents.
Just because both stations have "Van Wyck" in their names doesn't mean they're in the same place. In fact, they're a good distance apart. Your travel time would be reduced by a whopping 30 seconds if your train bypassed the stop. If you arrive at Jamaica Center more than 30 seconds late, the extra stop is not to blame -- you'll just have to get into the habit of catching an earlier E train.
That isn't an additional stop. It's the E's assigned stop. The stopbeing skipped is Briarwood-Van Wyck Blvd.
If you do an archive search on Queens Blvd or V train you will see why the current arrangement of V via 53rd is pretty much the best way to do it. A lot of people are seeing a considerable reduction in crowding as a result. Any significant change would screw more people than it helps. The people who aren't happy are complaining. The larger number of people who are happier than they were aren't saying a thing.
Check the archives.
Not everyone is complaining about the V, though in New York, whiners get the most attention.
The current service plan redistributes local and express passengers better than any other plan proposed thus far. It encourages use of a local train (the V) for nearer Queens destinations, while opening up seats on the F for longer rides. It provides efficient service to new destinations with substantial demand (the upper 60's, Roosevelt Island), and it increases the total amount of train service into Manhattan.
The G was truncated to Court Sq because 900,000 daily Queens Blvd. riders demanded more service, and G riders (a much smaller number) are served adequately by the new arrangement. As a concession to G riders, MTA improved the Court Sq transfer (and there are plans to continue physical improvements and add ADA access), and created two new Metrocard-based free transfers.
Your plan is not workable. The MTA tried a test running G,V,R,E,F,N trains together on the Queens Blvd. corridor; the unanimous conclusion was that it was a disaster.
I would welcome additional services into Queens. The G could return to Queens Plaza via a new lower level at that station, but this would cost at least $100 million to create. Another subway route into Queens is needed, and could be built from a bellmouth at 41 Av in Queens. This would compete with other priorities, however.
The MTA tried a test running G,V,R,E,F,N trains together on the Queens Blvd. corridor
When did they run the N and V trains on QB at the same time? IINM, the N train hasn't run on QB since 1987.
N would be still part of the equasion as it merges wirh R west of Queens Plaza.
Arti
The MTA tried a test running G,V,R,E,F,N trains together on the Queens Blvd. corridor
When did they run the N and V trains on QB at the same time? IINM, the N train hasn't run on QB since 1987.
Last time you had something major happen (like a power failure) and dispatchers had the mentality "Just throw a train whereever we can put it, no matter where it goes? :)
Kidding aside, it hasn't happened. And hopefully never will, as once you hit that magic point of 9:00 where you have the G, V and R, Queens Bl. is a place you don't want to be. I couldn't imagine throwing another line in there.
Sorry, my mistake. You are correct.
Well,Ron.. The MTA's building [right now]the Grand Central connection.Isn't it at all possible to include the provision for the Queens crosstown route,or taken a step futher,build the tracks as far as,say Rego Park to a terminal there? OR one step futher to Forest Hills,with a transfer to the QB,untill the line could be finished?
The current system, with the (F) running via 63rd and the (V) on 53rd, makes the most sense. It distributes passengers evenly, and really has reduced overcrowding. It also makes sense for the pushed-to-capacity (E) and (F) to be seperated as much as possible, so there is less track operating at 30 TPH. Also, it makes sense that there is a local train at 23rd Ely, so you can aproximate the full-length route of the (G) with only one tranfer.
I'm all for Hillside Express, but it has to be done right. It is not a good idea to have one train terminating at Continental while another continues on to 179th on the same track. The terminating train needs time to load and unload passengers, and would cause delays on the through route behind it. The best way to do it, IMHO, would be to have a through (F) express on peak hours only, with both the (R) and (V) running through to 179th via local at these times. That would also do better by the riders at the local stops, who would get about as much service as they get now. On off-hours, the (F) would revert to its current service pattern.
:-) Andrew
Are you assuming that there is no demand for the express mid-days? Current ridership patterns would tend to counter that argument...
When I say "Peak Hours", I mean the entire weekday from morning rush through to the evening rush. The (F) would run Hillside Express the same hours the (E) skips Van Wyck Blvd and 75th Ave.
:-) Andrew
Gotcha.
the E skips stations after 71 ave 6am to 6pm...[thats silly]and once again the E has taken the back seat to the F...
How would R terminating and V running throug be more difficult than them both terminating. IMO it would be the opposite.
Arti
How would R terminating and V running throug be more difficult than them both terminating.
Because you would be trying to use the same track as both a terminal and a through routing. you really cannot do that, one train is always in the way of the ogher, slowing the whole railroad down.
Elias
Because you would be trying to use the same track as both a terminal and a through routing. you really cannot do that
Hang on a moment - isn't that EXACTLY what is done at Bowling Green - the 4 train continues to Brooklyn whilst the 5 (most of the time) terminates on the same platform (and no, you can't ride the loop). The Lex Express isn't exactly some poxy little line with 2tph either.
I believe that's part of the reason the (5) continues to Flatbush Ave during Rush Hours.
:-) Andrew
...and screws up the (2) in so doing...
By the way, welcome to the board!
Yes indeed, welcome to our board!
There are a few issues that we try to keep in mind when proposing routings (which some of us do all of the time).
Each peice of track has a certain tph (trains per hour rating). If you add more (V)s you may need to cut back some (E)s and (F)s to make room for them.
Another issue is switching.... The movement of one train across a switch to another routing has the potential for delying other trains thus lowering the tph rating of that line.
Different kinds of terminals require different turn around times. The fastest is a loop such as the (6) at Brooklyn Bridge. Next is an 'in-station' turn around such as what is happening with the (B) and the (D) at 34th Street. THE SLOWEST AND MOST PAINFUL kinds of turn arounds are what are called 'Relays' where a train arrives at a terminal (such as Continential Avenue or 179th Street), and then is moved in the same direction as it was going past the terminal to a place where it can be switched back the other way. The reason why this takes so long is that the train must be emptied of passengers, and the crew must walk it down to PROVE that it is empty before moving it into the yard for switching. This can greatly slow down trans and reduce the tph of given lines.
30 tph is a nice majycial munber... and while it was easily achieved in the past, newer (slower) signaling and timing methods have slowed the lines greatly. 24 tph is sometimes the most realistic number you can have now a days.
So go ahead and join us in the fun of re-routing and re-inventing the transit system, but you need to keep some of these issues in mind, because others here like to snipe at some of the best ideas I have ever come up with.
If you like the "what-if" game, you might enjoy some of the maps I have made on my website Subways 2020.
Elias
because others here like to snipe at some of the best ideas I have ever come up with.
Hey Elias!
What's your next big idea? We haven't had the privelege of appreciating one of your multi-billion dollar plans for ages!
I'm sick and tired of everyone complaing about the Queens Corridor. You wanted more trains to Manhattan and you got it. Now, you're all complaining that it's not good enough because the V takes just 5 minutes longer to get to Lex/53 than the express.
Assuming the V and the E pull up at the same time, that is. If the V comes first, it may get you into Manhattan sooner. And, for the first time ever (during the day), local passengers finally have direct access to the popular 53rd Street corridor. But the newspapers aren't going to hear a peep out of them if they only interview people at Roosevelt and Continental.
Here are my "big picture" solutions for Queens, based primarily on conversations held on this board. First of all, you have to assume some infrastructure expansions, but at modest cost -- since we don't have the money. Second, you have to look at the borough as a whole. Third, you have to come with alternatives to the QB and Flushing lines, since these are close to capacity.
Improvement 1: LIRR to Grand Central. To the extend that this benefits NYC at all, it benefits eastern Queens. Eastern Queens people what to think of themselves as being in the suburbs, and the suburbs are a higher fare zone. With this added capacity, the LIRR can and should add stations and trains to benefit Queens. Expanding the platforms on the Port Washington branch, and re-activating the Rockaway Line, should be considered. If the NIMBY's stop the latter, at least Queens residents won't be able to complain about the transit they don't have.
Improvement 2: Astoria Line to and past LaGuardia. As much discussed on this board, the Astoria line could be extended elevated, on the water side of the Grand Central, to Shea Stadium, Flushing, and the College Point Industrial park. Northeast Queens residents who did not wish to take the LIRR could take buses to, or park and ride at, these locations. The Astoria line could then have local and express service, like the Flushing Line. All Queens Blvd. trains would use the 53rd or 63rd Street tunnels.
Improvement 3: As discussed earlier this week, a third track could be added to the Jamaica Avenue line -- then extended straight down Jamaica Avenue avoiding the curve into Eastern Parkway. Myrtle Avenue could be rebuilt to avoid the crossover, and made a local -- only station. You'd have 6 M's from Metropolitan, and 6 Js from Jamaica. You'd also have 12 Z's from Jamaica express in the peak direction, stopping at (say Eldrets Lane), Eastern Parkway, Marcy Avenue -- and into Manhattan. If the express trains could average 40 MPH, that would but the Z at Broad Street in 25 minutes or so. FINALLY, that might be enough to get people off the QB line.
Improvement #4: Roosevelt Turn Around. One QB local service would relay at a new terminal at Roosevelt Avenue, serving "inner" stops. The other would run EXPRESS from Roosevlet via battery run, giving the QB line a third express. The local would follow one express out of the terminal, and would make it to Queens Plaza before the following express caught up. There would be no incentive for those boarding, say, the V between 71st/Continental and Roosevelt to switch to the express.
Not as exciting as entirely new subway lines, but doable by 2020 with enough political will.
Great ideas, except I don't know about making Myrtle Ave local stop. When they run the M shuttle on the weekends, I don't think it would work if Myrtle was rebuilt with side platforms.
Eliminating the conflicting train paths, however, looks quite simple: a ramp from the local tracks West of Myrtle/Broadway to cross over the Broadway El on the old Myrtle El structure above the station - a single new platform would need to be constructed up there (for the M train to Metropolitan). It sounds a great idea!
Someone mentioned in a posting a month ago that NYCT had considered making the Queens Blvd tracks 3 and 1 (3 in rhe rush hour direction). It occurred to me that this could be managed if you send express trains back to Jamaica via the Chrystie connection, WB, and J/Z line (some construction required here and there, but nothing major).
Has this ever gotten serious consideration?
(Has this ever gotten serious consideration?)
Yes, but it involved a bunch of trains that only ran one trip per rush hour, and laid over at a yard in Sunnyside. Not very efficient. You could relay through Willie B if you added that third track as we discussed, but it would take away capacity from the Broadway-Jamaica line, since there are only two tracks on the bridge.
that was me,some time ago.... went to a public meeting sometime in 1989 when this was mentioned [before the 63rd tunnel opened],then again some time in the 90's[forget the date]where the plan was put forth in more[or less,all depends on how you see it]detail.
You could relay through Willie B if you added that third track as we discussed, but it would take away capacity from the Broadway-Jamaica line, since there are only two tracks on the bridge.
IINM, in the rush hour this is what you get on the Willy B:
6tph J + 7tph M + 6tph Z = 19tph
This means that there should be 11tph spare capacity there. If one lays up the 12 J and Z trains until after the rush hour or even until the PM rush (1 or 2 South of Broad St, quite a lot at Chambers St on spare tracks and Manny B leads, any others at 9th Avenue on the West End line or on the Sea Beach Express track South of 59th St), one would be able to get 23tph in the counter-peak direction (6tph to Jamaica to become J trains, 17tph to Broadway Junction to ENY Yard). Even if 3 and 1 were done at Peak Times on QB, it wouldn't mean that all of the tracks would be running at their capacity of 30tph. Current service levels of 30tph express + 18tph local are just about right - only 48tph are needed if people are sensible and spread themselves between the 4 services. 3 tracks in the peak direction on the QB Line looks easily possible, not really screwing anyone (indeed giving the Jamaica Line extra counter-peak service) unless you are trying to do Broad St to Cypress Hills or something unusual like that at 8am (even then, they'd just need to change at Essex and Delancey onto another train at the same platform).
It's probably more to do with such service levels not being necessary rather than it messing up the rest of the subway system that 3 tracks aren't operated in the same direction on QB in the rush hours.
Here are my "big picture" solutions for Queens
I think this is not a big picture but a case of tunnel vision.
The major problem is that half of Queens lacks subway service. If you doubt this take a look at the three most heavily used bus-subway transfer points: Main St, Jamaica Center and 179th St. Take a look at the direction from which the buses come to these stations - EAST.
Any "big picture" should address this reality. Suppose these three stations were no longer terminals. This would translate to approximately 20 K fewer passengers from each of these terminals. The existing infrastructure on the Flushing, and Queens Blvd lines would not be overcrowded with 60k fewer rush hour customers. So, the biggest bang for the buck for any new facilities should be to divert these people onto new lines east of the existing terminals and not to expand the existing lines.
Your post makes a lot of sense.
Remember New York's time-honored tradition of whining. "They're screwing us! It's a conspiracy. If you disagree, shut up! Nobody's interested in your opinion."
:0)
Since becoming a T/O in the IRT, my attitude has changed somewhat. People who use IND/BMT trains don't know how good they really have it. IND/BMT trains are wider, and 100 feet longer, thus there's more room. IRT trains have much less space.
If you really think about it, the TA did what Queens residents wanted them to do. They added service to Manhattan, yet it's still not good enough.
BTW the (Q) will NOT be returning to 6th Avenue, unless the south side of the Manhattan Bridge is closed again. Broadway is the home of the (Q), and 6th Ave the home of the (B) and (D) (and (F) and now the (V)).
:-) Andrew
It's amazing how SubTalkers "know" things the people designing the service plan don't know.
There is NO service plan for post-Manhattan Bridge at the moment. It's being devised now.
David
OK. OK. You're right. But ya gotta admit that the (Q) is more at home on Broadway. That is its historical (pre-Manhattan Bridge construction) home. Broadway needs it more than 6th Ave does. 6th Ave already has two expresses with the (B) and (D), not as if there were much meaning to "6th Ave express" anyway beyond the added capacity. And hey the (Q) was also designed to work into the letter scheme on Broadway (in the abscence of an "O" or "P" train.)
:-) Andrew
...and another thing: They changed the letters of the "B" (to "W") and "D" (to circle "Q") when they switched to Broadway last year (a good policy all arround), but not the "Q". It sounds to me like they don't mind people getting used to the letter "Q" being associated with Broadway.
:-) Andrew
please,dont make any more suggestions about my V train.im sick of it. its gonna stay the way it is and thats that.if people got a problem with it,they can move elsewhere.there isnt enough subway cars for extentions anyway so its useless.sides i've said it a thousand times already,the residents in Queens are absoultely braindead! they'd rather get squashed in a crowded express train just so they can go fast! like wow,being on a local for no more than 5 extra mins is gonna kill them and send them to hell.i love the V because i can always get a seat and RELAX! everyone else doesnt even know what relax even means they only know the word 'fast' and thats all they give a damn about.sides the people at the local stations now have access to 53rd.before they always had to transfer to an already super crowded train and i bet they had to let several of them go because they themselves couldnt even fit in.now there's no need for that and some still complain? man o man do they have HUGE problem and thats lack of common sense.
YOUR V Train? I thought the city of NY supplyed the rail cars[R46]to operate on a line that they constucted during the 20's and 30's,purchased with Fed monies[bonds issues/grats/loans]and a copy written ''V'' letter code bullit,all property of the state of NY and LEASED to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority as the New York City Transit Authority[NYCT]WITHOUT THE A....... just kidding... hey I like the V myself... It's just not the particulaur V line I was told over 20 years ago I'd be riding...... and it's the particulars that count... oh well,what can you do? Ill just wait this one out....
Best pack a few cans of sterno ... it's gonna be a COLLLLlllllld platform. :)
hey...didn't say I'll be waitin' long...anyway...how yaben?jeetyet?
Not ONLY I jeet, but I was feeling homesick for living next to the third avenue el with all that blue flashing out there today and tonight. Sheesh. Good thing I got cut off from the grid the other day from what blew through here then. If I had stuff plugged in for TONIGHT'S light show, they'd all be extra crisp, just like ME. :)
SURGE PROTECTOR.....
How about the suggestion that it should go to Broadway Junction for a fun ride through the Chrystie St connector and over the Willy B (yes, I know, car lengths, but it would make the V an even better line)?
"the people at the local stations now have access to 53rd.before they always had to transfer to an already super crowded train and i bet they had to let several of them go because they themselves couldnt even fit in.now there's no need for that and some still complain?"
Are you serious about the R and G train being "super crowded"? I can't believe that about the R, especially about the G.
The real reason why the V was created as a substitute for the G... Hopefully it's doing the job.
N Bwy
"the people at the local stations now have access to 53rd.before they always had to transfer to an already super crowded train"
Are you serious about the R and G train being "super crowded"?
I think going TO 53rd from Queens, the transfer TO the "super crowded" train was to the (E) or (F) trains. As these were both running close to or above notional capacity, "super crowded" would be a valid descriptor. Of course, going home, there was no problem with the (G) or (R) trains.
It is. Even at 50% capacity it's doing exactly what it is supposed to do.
I've had this from an NYCTA official. He said that G train has always been lightly loaded because it's a crosstown train. It's weird that people complain about transferring from a G to an F but they don't mind transferring from a V to an F.
AEM7
Subway whiners don't have to be logical...
>>>...about my V train.im sick of <<<<
Who said it was YOUR V train? Do you have a C of O?
Peace.
ANDEE
i say "my V train" because i love it.i need not explain it further.
Who among the regular posters are active at a streetcar or railroad msueum?
I am active at The Baltimore Streetcar Museum.
I know Thurston, Stef, JeffH, Sparky, Sgt. Jeff are all active at Shoreline (AKA Branford).
Frank Hicks is active at IRM.
Who else around here does the same?
Whoops! Forgot Todd Glickman, who's active at Seashore.
I am also active at Seashore(or was until I moved out to California), now I am active at WRM.
Rio Vista, eh? I was wondering if you could answer a question for me. What's being done on IRR 202? I had heard that it was going to be repainted in Portland Traction colors (which makes sense for its current location), but I hadn't heard anything more - and I'm not even sure I know what its number in Portland was! Is anything happening on this project?
Frank Hicks
Don't know but I will try and find out for you.
Hey, Jeremy! How ARE you doing? Let us know when you're heading back east again! We'll have to railfan the lines you missed the last time around!
Doug
Hey Doug!
I am doing well...been really busy the last few months at work which is why I haven't been here lately...
I will definitely let you guys know when I am heading east again...definitely at Christmas, but I am trying to get another trip in before that.
JEremy
Just give us a heads up and we'll 'roll out the red carpet'...;-)
Just give us a heads up and we'll 'roll out the red carpet'...
Not to mention rolling out the pet red car ;)
I am an active member at the Trolley Museum of New York, along with Evan and South Ferry who occasionally post here. I'd like to get a certain car inspector here who only does D4s hands on a 2CY before he goes completely out of his mind.
Wait a sec -- are you the former 'Transit Professional' aka Eric Garces?
No! That's the Transit Professional's partner in crime. Heh. I think the young man had an identity crisis, and went from being an Engine Brake to a Grounded Shoe Beam. And my name is Dolly! Lol...
-Stef
Thanks for the tip, Stef. BTW, better watch your window tomorrow night -- some crazed lunatic might pester you in the p.m. ;-)
It will be the last time you get to see me there before I leave my cozy booth! I will return....
-Stef
Right you are, Sir Beam.
TMNY I am.
I am an Instructor at Seashore (rail and bus). I am a past-trustee there as well. I also belong to Branford.
While were making additions and corrections, I also am active at
Seashore [Dispatcher], besides being an Instructor/Dispatcher at
Branford. I'm also a member at Rockhill and currently on a hiatus
from TMNY.
Don't forget SubTalk Sunday @ Branford, 13th October.
;-) Sparky
Say, how much would we have to scrape up to charter 1689 for a spin? Perhaps it could make more than one trip. We'd have to sign it up as an A once, then as a GG, then as a D in honor of Kevin.:)
We'll sign it up as a GG when Unca Sparky has to come down with the tow motor to rescue it from the end of the line. Only a full service will do it for me. :)
Kevin,
>>>"when Unca Sparky has to come down with the tow motor to rescue it from the end of the line."<<<
Don't laugh, but I have been the rescue vehicle for 1689. During a
national convention, couple years back, one of the railfan groups
was in Connecticut, don't remember which one. The electrical connection for 1689 became disengaged inbound and had to transport
the Chief Mechanic & tools to it. So it was Uncle Sparky to the
rescue on TATS 629 to assist IND 1689.
>>>"We'll sign it up as a GG."<<<
Well this December, when I passed the Dispatching wand onto Big Lou,
on three Saturdays, I had the pleasure to be assigned the lay up
of 629. An extra exibit was featured on 1689, facilitating it movement to the high level platform during public operations.
But being delayed, while awaiting the movement of 1689 to it relay
track, I made sure the end sign facing me on the eastbound end was "GG" ~ "Queens Forest Hills". There were others, whom were
trilled, to say the least, to have the opportunity, even if only
100 yards to operate the arnine. I stuck to my streetcars.
Why should I deny other the opportunity to have an orgasm.
>>>"Only a full service will do it for me. :)"<<<
At the time 1689 was in IND service, the "GG" was 24/7 Continental to Smith-9th. Not the current bastarsized abortion, they made of her.
Also you know, I behind because of access inabilty to this board via
AOL. So pardon the slack in replying. I also peaked at other
ISP, this afternoon. Nothing that interesting to me.
;-) Sparky
Glad to see you got here - saw you banging the tin cup on the bars over at Harry's. Heh. yeah, even in their natural surroundings, the Arnines needed the tender loving kiss of a hammer to finish a trip sometimes. I had a feeling you'd have to come out with the hook here and there. :)
And yep, though I lived in the Bronx and only rode "Gigi" for fun, I remember when it was a real train too. I was personaly outraged by it being banished from Queens Plaza. And if I recall properly, Smith/9th wasn't the end of the line on the south once upon a time either. That too was part of the slow corrosion of the line over many years. Didn't it go all the way out to Church or Kings Highway once upon a time?
Kevin,
It only ran to Church Avenue for several years, when they had 'F'
express service. Then the residents of the stops between 7th Avenue,
Brooklyn & Bergen squalled about changing up or down at Bergen.
The 'F's ran to Kings Highway as locals from Church and the Coney
Island F's express to Stillwell in peak direction on the Culver.
All F's ran express between Bergen & Church with the "GG" going to Church.
Most of its existance was between Forest Hills & Red Hook.
Gotta get outta here, the Chief is due home soon.
;-) Sparky
Thanks, buddy! I *thought* I remembered it running deeper than it does now. I guess all those whiners got their due, now they're ALL locals, no pesky changes. :)
Dan, you know that I'm active at Branford (operations and some other miscellaneous stuff) and am a member of National Capital as well. BMTman is also active at Branford. Ray Crapo (occasional poster) is involved with the folks in Arden, Pennsylvania nowadays - I ran into him when I stopped by there in the beginning of July.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You forgot me -- BMTman (Doug), Lou from Brooklyn, Anon_E_mouse, RIPTA42, HartBus, and just this past Tuesday, Pelham Bay Dave...all Shoreline Trolley Museum members (aka Branford).
Now we got to get SubBus in....
-Stef
he's playing hard to get...might have to resort to bribery...
Then there's Heypaul...:)
Hey Doug... I don't exist??????????
Hey Mark..........email me about your little drama Wednesday on the A Line!!! You blew up the railroad!! lol :-)
I didn't even know you were there. Tsk....Tsk....Tsk....
Trying to be a wise guy tonight.
-Stef
No, you're chopped liver :-)
Hey, you expect everyone to remember everything all the time?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Man, you are on a roll!:)
Damn! I knew there was someone else! Sorry 'bout that...:-O
Ahem.
Shoot! I must be slipping in my old age...;-)
Sorry bout that Dave!
Also Active at Shoreline - Larry RedbirdR33, Bob Anderson (even though we have no LIRR stuff)
Active at Ct. Trolley Museum/Warehouse Point, East Windsor, CT - Thurston who operates there on an occasional Friday and when he is forced to purchase a QSC operator badge.
Found out that the badge was part of a group rejected by QSC because the mfg. put a BLUE vs. orange bus on it.
I am a member at Branford and am involved with the NY Transit Museum.
Peace,
ANDEE
Dan, Just read thru all the replys & have a few more museum members who either lurk or post here:
- Subway Al (aka Zitts); SubSurf; MOW-Bill W.; Brian M (Seashore & Shoreline & Essex); Dave B. (a new TA employee); Subway Dave; Mr MaBSTOA; Glen K.; Jimmy B. (of late seems to like Harry's site better); Joe N.; Mr SMEE (aka Lou S.); Karl B,; Patrick J.; Paul P.; Peter the Pole; Phil D. (he's gone underground of late).
Within the group above are many past or presently qualified operators who like to go Ding Ding as well as Honk Honk < G >
... I know of four others at Seashore, but not sure if they lurk here so I won't memtion them.
BTW, I'm a member at Seashore, Shoreline & Warehouse Point (and an operator at the latter two).
P.S. I'll be mostly off-line for the next week .....
Didn't have to get carried away with all of that...
My only point is there are a lot of us here who get dirty at our hobby in one form or another ... some of us call it a job & get paid for it.
Why would you mention them if you weren't sure if they "lurked" here? and if they didn't, do you think they wouldn't want to be "found out?" :)
People are funny about this. Because I have so many e-mail addresses sometimes I forget if their e-mail is public or not. So, I error on the side of NOT.
Have noticed a couple that I did mentioned anounced themselves today.
Peter the Pole here.
Branford member.
I dated a girl once who along with her parents was a member of Warehouse Point.
Doesn't count.
I know.
Count me in as well. I am a Shoreline member, dont get up to the property much since serving in Uncle Sam's Yacht Club has had me in Florida and Hawaii for the last 11 years. Was active as a teenager in the early eighties with my Father. Now I usually come up and help out the Conn Co guys(George Papuga and crew) when I am home on vacation
Steve Loitsch
I'm an instructor at Branford.
Did anyone meantion Jeff H.?
Did anyone mention Jeff H.?
Yeah, Dan did, in his original post that you responded to :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris, we just about 'outted' everyone! LOL! ;-)
I emailed an offer to volunteer and basically got turned down earlier this summer - does this count?!? Later, it ultimately turned out that I'd be busy on weekends anyways, so...
-Robert King
Robert,
Eesh!!... You're the first time I hear ANYONE
get 'turned down' for a VOLUNTEER spot.... whodunit?
So, take the train down here. You like PCCs, right? I know
of an ex-Newark, ex-Shaker car that needs its pedal linkages
degunked and lubricated :) If that's not rough enough, they're
working on one of those "Dallas cars" at Warehouse Point.
"If that's not rough enough, they're
working on one of those "Dallas cars" at Warehouse Point."
They are? Yecch. I remember that car as being pretty rough; but then again most of the Boston PCC's at Warehouse Point seemed pretty rough.
Frank Hicks
Don't forget me... I'm still a member at IRM, although I'm not as active as I used to be.
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
...my apologies! I've been away for the last few days, so it's possible some of you may have never gotten an awaited reply to certain posts. -Nick
OK guys, what are we looking at, other than two young men who kind of look like Arthur Lonto and Martin Schachne many many years ago...
R11
That was my guess too.
Definitely not an R-11; the give-away hint are the windows.
Regards,
Mark Valera
www.transitalk.org
That's a Multi, with the similar vent roof to the IRT World's Fair Low-V's.
is that the multi built for a movie for use in a subway scene???
were the multis IRT or BMT width???
This is an IND car- notice the word "YORK" above the window on the left of the picture. IND cars originally had "CITY OF NEW YORK" imprinted there..
Did any R-1/9s have grab bars instead of straps? It certainly does look like an R-1 or an R-4, judging from the windows on the door leaves and the single large storm door window.
Nope ... the small door windows and the rivets had me wondering too, but the Ogee roof for one and all those extra bracelets on the seats as well as the wrong kind of "straps", not to mention the windows, are all wrong for R1/9's, 10's or anything IND. I'm beginning to wonder if Unca Paul is messing with us and it's something H&M Tubes. I don't recognize it as being ANYTHING I've seen. Certainly not LoV/HiV either as best as I can tell ...
He's befuddled us good and proper. :)
He's stumped the panel of experts.:)
Steve, I guess you didn't look down to this and following posts.
Some folks have a mission in life. Heh. But yeah, that was definitely one off the wall show and tell. It LOOKED R9, it LOOKED R10, but more than anything else, it looked completely NOT like either. I've been in the imposter and that sure didn't look like it. HE CHEATED! Heh.
Who knows? Maybe I got Joe Frank to build one of his very very clever realer than real models, and then hired two teenie weenie little people to sit in it. :)
Heh. The resolution was a bit too high for WebTV. Ya know? I was actually wondering. I've BEEN in the "imposter" and it looked JUST like an R10 on the railroad. Of course, it was in the middle of MY trains (Arnines) so I knew the truth. Confused MANY "customers" it did it did. But I *never* saw it looking anything like that.
Another possibility out of the way for that mystery train, y'all. :)
The entertaining thing about 1575 in service is that it looked like an R10 but it ran, sounded and felt like an R1/9.
The effect was rather novel, and a little disconcerting.
Heh. Yeah, I know. Had to cut out some doors in 1575 once and it was like neither of the cars. That was one unique piece of work. What's really funny is the first time I saw it was as a conductor (fortunately it wasn't in the middle) and the other guys were gathering around WAITING for me to complain about someone drilling an inoperable train and refusing to take it out. Unfortunately, I didn't know that R10's and R9's wouldn't run together so I just saddled up and went, and deprived them of a free show. :)
Wasn't until I got back that they told me "the story" ... saw it again a few times after I left the TA but that car apparently didn't go out all that often in my days.
1575 was often the lead motor in whatever train it ran in; however, there is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of it coupled in the middle of a D train at 7th Ave. or Smith-9th. Never saw or rode on it in revenue service, though.
It DID go out, I've ridden it. Never saw it as a lead or tail myself though.
I also only rode it in the middle of a train. It would have been a cool picture at the head end "back then" becuase it would have appeared to be an R10 at the head of other than an A train.
Heh. Nice to know there's still folks who couldn't imagine an R10 on anything *but* an A train. Putting them anywhere else on the railroad would have been grounds for a beating. :)
But yeah, the impact probably would have been even MORE profound were it not for the fact that folks were used to "Smorgastrains" ...
The first time I rode it was in 1969 during a 6th grade class trip when it was on the LL, and IIRC, it was the third car on the train headed towards Eighth Ave.
Aside from being completely out of place with the other R-7/9 that had migrated to the Eastern Division, the most noticable thing about it was both leaves on the door panels on the second door from the front were broken, meaning the door didn't open at all when we got on at First Ave. (which made it fun to watch at Third Ave., when the people on the platform reacted with their own surprised/pissed looks when the same thing happened to them.)
Of course, Bill Ronan had only been running the MTA for about a year at the time -- he'd do a far better job screwing up the system than a couple of measley broken doors on 1575 in the ensuing years...
>>It would have been a cool picture at the head end "back then" becuase it would have appeared to be an R10 at the head of other than an A train.<<
I heard a story long ago about a motorman operating #1575 on the head end. Thinking it was an R-10, he took a brake and flew out the end of the platform ! That would be classified as a major no-no today.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's rich. No hablemos SMEE. I take it the variations in the stands weren't obvious? :)
>>I take it the variations in the stands weren't obvious? :)<<
Maybe he was focused on the car body and thought.....R-10.
It didn't take a brake like an R-10, that's for sure !
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a cute story, but it has to be a joke. Lap brakes like on an R9 and SMEE (or other self-lapping) brakes are so different the M/M would have to notice the minute he charged up.
There were also significant differences in the stands, the angle in which you dropped your wrench and in particular the AIR gauges between the two car types. I'm sure I would have been quite confused had I boarded 1575 to charge up, but the minute I got in the cab I would have had to get on the radio and ask what happened to the car. The differences were immense. Whoever managed to standing test and then roll that puppy really needed a day off, or maybe two weeks if they still thought it was a 10. :)
Heh. Gate cars, XxV's and gate cars ARE an acquired taste. But one has to wonder what that guy was smoking though - the 10's were radically different, sounded different, CHARGED different. By comparison to the Arnines, the 10's felt like redbirds almost. Musta been a powerful illusion. :)
Now for what it's worth, I've SEEN the car and yes, everything about it physically was R10. And I had no idea that it wasn't REALLY an R10 when I encountered it. I suppose though that's why it got drilled into the middle of a train rather than lead or tail, especially if someone thought it was gonna start grabbing without that 4 second countdown.
Then you have this photo during its later years:
New York City Subway Cars features a photo of 1575 as the lead motor on an E train.
Actually, I had no doubts that it ended up on a lead or tail motor, such is the random luck of the yard draw when you have folks making up odd numbers of cars or one gets drilled out for motor work. Personally, never saw it lead or tail whenever I did encounter it (which wasn't often at all) but those ANNOYING fluourescent lights made me find another car. :)
Folks don't appreciate candlelight dinners or the warm, soulful glow of dim incandescent lighting. It was actually quite charming. Then again, as I discovered at Kissmoose, a horse drawn carriage ride is ALSO nice if the wind's blowing the right way. Heh.
By the way, THANKS for the shot ... I've stuffed it into my "CHOO" folder. First time I ever saved a picture of any Arnines in "war between the states, Holy Ronan Empire BS paint scheme" ... you should feel HONORED. Now ON YOUR KNEES. :)
Does this mean I'm being knighted?:)
Uh ... yeah ... never taken a civil service, eh? "Assume the position, it's not just for conductors any more." :)
I'm not sure I want to know...
Heh. Yep, you got it. Nothing in the world straightens your neck more than a civil service "position" ... I'll leave it there. :)
>>Never saw or rode on it in revenue service, though.<<
I never rode #1575, but saw it in the mid 60's at Stillwell Terminal, mid consist on the (D) train was is now the (F). I saw it from the West End platform.
I didn't know the history of the car, but wondered, "gee what's that (A) train car doing mixed with the others ?" I was about 13 years old then.
Bill "Newkirk"
1575 drew many a puzzled stare in its day, I'm sure. I probably would have wondered the exact same thing if I had ever seen it.
You're thinking of the studio mockup of World's Fair Lo-V 5674 in The Incident. Very meticulously done, IMHO.
It doesn't look like a multi. If it is indeed a real NYC car, it looks like an R-10 that was altered (judging from the shape of the roof), like the R-4 and 7 were. Somehow, though, it seems artificial to me.
Just to make you completely nuts, it ISN'T the "mystery train" ... so since this is the case, I'm laying my chips down on it being a "C type." :)
YOOOO-Kevin ---
C types still retained there 1200-1400 car (Motor A & C UNITS) El_Car Clerestory roof style - as did higher-roofed middle B-section trail cars ---definitely not a psuedo Stillwell style roof like this car has---also C types had the center cross (named "Manhattan Style" El permanent cross seat units) seat units removed and had ALL longitudal seating along both sides.
Also had Grab-Bars similar to D and B types - no more hand straps.
I havent proffered a guess on these cars in Pauls' photo...still working on it (heh --too busy elsewhere (you know where!)
Regards - Joe ---Good (heh) guess, tho - MOOOoooo elsehere (you know where !)
Heh. Well I stuffed your mailbox for you earlier this morning, so get behind that desk and get to work. :)
Maybe this mystery train I was on was something that somehow ended up in the wrong place and was returned to Boston after the run. Heh.
Maybe it's even running on the D.:)
Bluebird? The interior shape, and the storm door window, seems to match the exterior one:
Are you guys giving up? Two of you were on the right track (or at least noticing the right things).
A hint--a lot more of us have seen this car than have ridden it.
Is it a movie set ?
Bill "Newkirk"
No, let me change that.
There is something unusual about the clerestory. In the foreground it looks like an R1-9, but furthur down the car it changes and looks like early BMT Standard or Multi. The seat stanchions are something I don't recognize. The windows look more like R-10s where one large pane drops down. I can't figure this one out.
Bill "Newkirk"
it is DEFINITELY a standard MS unit judging by the roof, and the doors. i have also heard that there was an imitation MS made out of wood. could this be it?
it cant be an R11/R1-9/ctype/any wooden BMT car because of the roof.
it cant be an R10(or anything but an R1-9 or MS for that matter) because of the door, and the Experimental MS have a different roof. so it must be a standard MS unit
or is it an IRT wf?
Wait a minute. Did you catch the roofline roll sign on the right? You don't suppose it's that infamous R-10 imposter, R-7A 1575?!?
no, it has windows to the door pocket
Definitely not, compare to the photos on the R7 pages...
That looks like the R11 experimental train before rebuild.
Is that really Arthur?
the R 11 had arch roofs
I don't know if that's Arthur and/or Marty. Marty would have been 17 or so at the time. Arthur, I assume, somewhat older(?) Maybe those kids are too young? But I remember the two of them as they looked 40 years ago (the pic is 55 years ago) and I think the resemblance is striking.
Is it me or are pictures of the R11 (original) interior very hard to come by?
Someone came up with the almost exact right answer. Why "almost"? Because he didn't guess the circumstance that made getting to answer so confusing. I did ask the question "what are we looking at," not "what car is this." That is, the car is important, but not the whole story.
On the road to the right answer, we had:
Dupont Circle Station, said:
It doesn't look like a multi. If it is indeed a real NYC car, it looks like an R-10 that was altered (judging from the shape of the roof), like the R-4 and 7 were.
I thought Bill Newkirk was going to get it! He was looking at the exact right stuff! Also, he had also been the first one who got the right answer to this earlier mystery photo.
There is something unusual about the clerestory. In the foreground it looks like an R1-9, but furthur down the car it changes and looks like early BMT Standard or Multi. The seat stanchions are something I don't recognize. The windows look more like R-10s where one large pane drops down.
CONGRATULATIONS, Steve B-8AVEXP!!
Wait a minute. Did you catch the roofline roll sign on the right? You don't suppose it's that infamous R-10 imposter, R-7A 1575?!?
It's 1575 while it was in the process of conversion. That's why it's a Frankenstein of recognizable R7 and R10 features. This is the photographer's ID.
The photo is made more confusing by the fact that they apparently "tried" some features (different grab bars, seats--whatever) that didn't make it into the final.
But once you know the right answer, the rest falls into place.
My apologies to anyone else who was on the right track, but I failed to mention. You guys exhausted, or do you want another?
Special Honorable Mention to Phil Hom, who came even closer (and in more detail), but Steve B got to the most basic part first.
You guys exhausted, or do you want another?
Keep them coming......
Again again!!!
More! More!! More!!!
Gee, I'm speechless.:)
That photo had to be taken before they put in those door leaves with the longer windows.
The picture is absolutely fascinating for its combination of R9 and R10 featues. The near clerestory is clearly R9, the near sash windows R10. On they the left you can still see one of those little R9 windows in the door pocket that were later painted or covered over...
Paul,
Wasn't the original #1575 wrecked or damaged, the reason why they made the car into a R-10 prototype ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes.
It was "in the shop" at the right time. Compare with the poor Green Hornet, waiting in the shop for a new coupler (I believe) and hauled away and cut up for the war effort.
The reason the Hornet was appropriated was that it had a high aluminum content..which was a necessary part of plane construction....and aluminum wasnt as pervasive in American life in those days as it is today.
Notwithstanding, the Hornet was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Someone at the Transit Museum mentioned that 1575 got roller bearings when it was rebuilt into the R-10 prototype. Maybe not roller bearings, but some sort of bearings which the rest of the R-1/9s didn't have. Supposedly that is why 1575 was usually one of the lead motors in a consist.
I can't think of why roller bearings would make a difference on where the car would be in a consist.
Five of the triplexes had roller bearings, and they operated anywhere in a consist. I can't really say there ride was different, but they had a different sound.
'in the process of conversion'??? Did the BOT send it out on the road in mid-renovation????
No. The photographr and his friends had access to the car in the shop where the picture was taken.
And here I thought that THIS was the real 1575 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yow! The Board of Transportation did do some experiementing before they settled on the R-10 design for 1575, didn't they? :-)
Well, there IS more than one 1575, you know.:)
Damn....that's what I was leaning to, 1575. I am just reading these posts now. I missed it!
1) No large sign box on the right where it is expected.
2) Different seat bars near the double leaf doors in each section.
3) No ceiling fans.
4) Small designation sign mounted on the walls, with one standing up on the seat.
5) City of New York decals on left wall.
6) Seat divider, longitudinal with solid panel on the seat bars on the right. Cross seating is still in place to the rear of the picture.
7) Different hand holds on different section of the car.
It has to be a 1947 mock up of something that was tried out in the shops, possible a pre-1575 test in a R-9 carbody. The 1575 rebuild was the results of the test fittings.
Phil, you essentially got it, even as I was posting the answer (since Steve B pretty much guessed it). Good, methodical reasoning.
It is 1575 as it was being messed with. So said Bob Wasche, the photographer.
The Washington Post is reporting that the HHP-8s are now also out of
service too:
HHP-8 Out of Service
If we all be quiet for just one minute, we can hear the sound of David Gunn trashing his office !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Son of a crumbcake, I have to take Amtrak home tomorrow. Hmmm, at least I'll get some good photos in.
This reminds me of what happened to the GG-1's back in 1962.
This reminds me of what happened to the GG-1's back in 1962.
Wrong kind of snow?
What good photos, like ALP-44 hauling Amtrak coaches? Which reminds me, I must head down to South Station. Y are you going home tomorrow?
AEM7
Heh, NJT should stick it to Amtrak and let Amtrak play with a few ALP-46's. I hear those units are quite nice! Oh hell, are the NJT E-60's still around, since Amtrak loves those disasters so much too?
Oh hell, are the NJT E-60's still around, since Amtrak loves those disasters so much too?
As I recall, the E60's had a problem with excessive yaw when they were new. A bit of deja vu.
As I recall, the E60's had a problem with excessive yaw when they were new.
Come to think of it, I've seen a few Oaks Video with the E60s snaking at high speeds with yaw motion. Initially I thought it was a result of bogie hunting, but I suppose arsed up suspension may have been to blame too.
AEM7
I hardly consider the E-60's disasters. They pull their own weight in coaches. Maybe not much more, but they get the job done. But they just probably get bad gas milage due to their boxy shape :O
According to Amtrak Employee Timetable, the maximum speed of ALP-44 is 100 mph. The ALP-44s will only haul coaches like Clocker or Keystone between NY and Philly.
Chaohwa
The APL-44 speed is a "software" limitation that could be easily reset. They are geared for 125. The reason for this is that all NJT rolling stock is rated for 100.
I've heard the ALPs can go a heck of a lot faster, too, if the computer let them.
Hey, you ride on an ALP-46 pulled train, yet? I hear they accelerate almost like the Arrows...
Will be fun watching them in service and seeing how well they do.
And they should do that.
With the trusty AEM7s pinch hitting for the Acelas (deCELAs?), I would say that somebody around here has some amazingly huge amounts of crow to consume, but I think that we can let it slide, I hear that West Nile can be nasty.
Anyway, how long until we get some Class 101 or ALP46 derived AEM8s, at least they have proven themselves hundreds of times over on the Deutschbahn in Germany. Gunn seems pretty reasonable, lets get him to borrow some ALP46s from NJT during this Acela-outage.
It'd be great to see some new, non-acela electrics on the NEC, perhaps the Class 101s in that Scheme that AEM7 cooked up a few months ago. That'd look pretty nice on the somewhat blunt nosed ALP46s.
(I know I know, I'm setting myself up for some crow eating if or when the ALP46s end up like the ALP44s, I hope it doesn't happen, but these days, it's increasingly hard to be optimistic over new equipment)
at least they have proven themselves hundreds of times over on the Deutschbahn in Germany. Gunn seems pretty reasonable, lets get him to borrow some ALP46s from NJT during this Acela-outage.
OK, be careful. So I have been told, the Acela's problems stems from allowing the locomotive to prove itself in Europe and THEN adapting the technology. The Acelas had these things called yaw dampers (which are also present on P-42's, but not on earlier kit like F-40's) which were basically a European invention. As one Washington Post report cited, the trains can run without them, and the trains in Europe work fine with them -- but over here they screw up.
Why? Well, European track is maintained to a lot tighter tolerance than U.S. track. If the Acelas only made the run between BOS and NYP, it is unlikely that they would be damaged. However, the track south of NYP is a lot rougher (because not as much work had been done recently and the switches etc are all old-school) and that is likely where the track quality exceeded the brackets' tolerance for abuse. So just transplanting a locomotive from Germany can have unexpected effects.
The thing about the Germans is that you would think they would take into account of such things. Well not necessarily so. SIEMENS, the electrical contractor who built the NEC from NHV to BOS, forgot to account for the difference in temperature range you get in the Northeast and they wound up with weights that were hitting the ground. I don't know if the British subcontractor Balfour Beatty is at fault, or if SIEMENS should have spotted that, but the point is even German engineers aren't free from screw ups, SIEMENS being one of the most reputable names in business.
I say, we have the HHP-8's now. We gotta work with them. The money is in them, and they are around whether you like it or not. So let's just fix the brackets and get on with it. To order new stock now would probably be more trouble than it's worth. Look at the E-60's. They were meant to be retired as soon as AEM-7's walked through the door. Were they?
AEM7
You're right.
By the way, yaw dampers are standard equipment on subway cars too, not just locomotives. Especially important when your train passes close to high platforms.
Does anyone know is the MARC HHP-8 were taken out of service?
MARC HHP-8s have not been in service yet.
Chaohwa
I thought they were already running, whats the deal?
They need to train crews to operate HHP-8s. MARC says they will be in service this month, but I have not seen them yet.
Chaohwa
Oh Ok Thanks for the info!
SIEMENS, the electrical contractor who built the NEC from
NHV to BOS, forgot to account for the difference in temperature range you get in the Northeast and they wound up with weights that were hitting the ground.
Interesting, as the Central Light Rail Line in Baltimore uses variable tension catenary on the line everywhere except on the Howard Street (downtown) where constant tension is used, and no weights have ever hit the ground here yet (line in use since 1991) and our teps range from 0 to 100 degrees in the course of an ordinary year.
Sounds like it's not Siemens' fault, but the sub-contractors they hired that put the wire up.
The AEM-7 is basically an RC-4 that was somewhat 'americanized'. It's been an excellent locomotive for the years it's been running here. The Acela is a ground up design that was loosely based on the then not yet in service Astride (? or Sybic?) locomotive, which I believe was a failure in Europe also (Bombardier has a rep for building duds, then trying to find suckers to buy them - witness BRT, the Disney monorail car replacements they built, etc).
Anyway, the ALP-46s so far have been running well enough that NJT is trusting them with 9 car trains, and reports are the performance is VERY nice.
The trouble is that Bombardeir tried to build an overweight HSR that runs on laughably poor track. Even the Acela locomotives are heavy (more than 100 tons, the HHP-8 is an obnoxious 110, the AEM-7 and ALP-46 are around 100, IIRC, the Class 101 is about 80), and the cars are patheticaly overweight. The Comet IVs are 100,000 lbs, which is still quite heavy for what they are (I'd still love to see what a stripped M-1 body would weigh - I'm guessing sub 80,000 lbs).
In any case, there will never be another order for Acela cars, and I wouldn't be surprised if BBD scraps the tooling soon anyway. It's a dud design. Amtrak should have ordered 1 or 2 prototype sets to chake them down a year or two before ordering the rest, but oh well.
Even the Acela locomotives are heavy (more than 100 tons, the HHP-8 is an obnoxious 110,...
The weight of the locomotive has little to do with its performance. For instance, the GG-1 was in excess of 200 tons. AEM-7 is considered light given the amount of power it is able to "generate".
It is true that the power/weight ratio does govern acceleration to a certain extent, but not as much as you say.
It is possible to build a reasonable high speed rail system with heavyweight cars. It will be more expensive in terms of track maintenance, energy, and a whole host of other things. However, it is not impossible. The fact that Bombardier failed to do so reliably is not a reason to reject the concept of "real" high speed rail as opposed to flimsy European shite.
The Intercity 125 HST has the heaviest coaches built on the British Rail System. It also the nicest riding, the most robost, and the best liked. It also one of a few types that current run at the maximum service speed of 125mph. Significantly, it is diesel powered.
Electrics are not "shite". Electrics are also not the be-all and end-all. Lightweights are not necessarily "shite", although in most cases they are. Again, they are not the be-all and end-all. There is a place for heavy high speed rail.
AEM7
It'd be great to see some new, non-acela electrics on the NEC, perhaps the Class 101s
I'm not sure I agree with Gunn when he says "there's no need for an American Model". There is. If instead of building the Amfleets, they went ahead and bought a bunch of European coaches, do you think those would still be around now? I seriously doubt it. European coaches are maintenance heavy, and would probably be in the junkyard by now given the kind of deferred maintenance that had befallen the Amfleets. It's a tribute to Amfleet design that they could survive this kind of maintenance starvation.
So be very careful when recommending European kit. They aren't always better than native American products. There are features we can adapt from European designs, but the bottom line is it takes a North American designer to come up with something that will survive the North American environment: the snow, the lack of maintenace, the heat, the (God forbid) collision with SD-70MAC's.
AEM7
I agree, I agree.
but we are quite lacking in electric engines
the AEM7s are sweedish
Not really. Look at the design of the X995 and compare it to 901. See for yourself how much design changes were needed to adapt it for the American environment, especially the trucks and the carbody.
Do AEM-7's have yaw dampers?
Had the HHP-8's not been pulled, Amtrak actually has a lack of coaches rather than engines. That has led to things like #66 running with three cars and #182 running with two Cafes and one coach.
AEM7
This is slightly off topic (with three exceptions) however since I know alot of posters I'll post it anyway to recommend a great vacation. We drove cross country round trip from Long Island to Phoenix then Las Vegas. It was an absolutely fantastic trip to see America and including NY we were in 19 states. Would have been 17 but we cheated when we saw the Colorado & Michigan borders were close to the interstates that we got off just to go there. Westward we took the southern route, the old rt 66 through Oklahoma, Texas, & New Mexico. Going back we went due north on I15 from Vegas to Salt Lake City then I80 through Utah, Wyoming, Nebraska, Iowa, etc all the way to the GW Bridge!!! In one trip we saw the Grand Canyon, the Oklahoma City Bombing memorial, Hoover Damn, Sedona, The Rockies, Vegas, Cheyanne Wyoming, Chicago, Cleveland, and alot more!!!
The difference in temperatures were staggering! 111 degrees in Arizona then 55 in Wyoming. The 90 degrees in NY now is much worse than the 111 in Phoenix. Even though I thought it was alot of nonsense before the trip I found out that it IS true what they say about the humidity.
To make it on topic we saw many freight trains going back & forth especially in Utah, Wyoming, and Nebraska. Then we stopped at Chicago and saw the many els. We then drove on I 90 with the rapid transit line on the center median back to I 80. And then of course we saw some of the els on the Cross Bronx when we got back to NY.
It was a great trip and I recommend every American to take it to see the great land we live in.
P.S. It was certainly not the nightmare portrayed by I Love Lucy & National Lampoon's Vacation.
By the way, I forgot to mention, the New York, New York Hotel in Vegas was nothing like the real New York!! They had a whole floor that was supposed to be Coney Island but was nothing like Coney!!!
Yeah, and I lost my glasses on that roller coaster last week! First few turns were rough, too. Grrrr
For me, Vegas was litterally one big blur until the next morning :(
BTW, if you're hitting Chicago, a detour to Michigan City, In to see the South Shore's street running is in order. It's a really screwed up thing :)
I saw the SD LRT, but didn't ride it. Locals say they like it a lot.
Oh yeah, Arizona heat isn't bad. Bullshit! It sucks as much as NY heat...
Bart was nice, the Market street-F line was nice, but Muni sucks and looks it.
Avoid the Porter House Inn in Wisconsin. Hit theSuper 8 in Mitchell, SD instead, and eat at the dinner right by it. Great pancakes. Waffle House was surprisingly good too.
A little steak house in Jackson, Wy was great, and my friend liked it's "ambiance" (i.e., young, blonde, large breasted females), and there was one outside Amarillo on I-40 (Hoffermans?) that was good to.
Avoid Hardees and Carls Jr unless you like to puke :)
Las Vegas is building some funky monorail thing now, I think. saw it going up in places. Dunno much about it...
Phil, the steak house in Amarillo you mentioned. Was that the one that advertises the free 72 ounce steak? Because we ate there.
By the way, I know you're a biker. We were thinking of going to Sturgis as the rally was going on that week however we finally thought it would be rough with a car and a 6 year old kid. We would never get a room and it would probably be a 200 mile detour. However while we were on the Indiana Turnpike (I-80) I saw on the map that we would be close to a Sturgis Michigan!!! We got off, drove there, so I can actually say we were in Sturgis during bike week!!! Even though it was the wrong Sturgis!!! They even had a Harley dealer there and I was going to stop and buy a Tee shirt that said Sturgis, Michigan but it was closed!!!
Phil, the steak house in Amarillo you mentioned. Was that the one that advertises the free 72 ounce steak?
Nope.
We would never get a room and it would probably be a 200 mile detour.
No kidding. I was there a week early and rooms were impossible anywhere in SD.
However while we were on the Indiana Turnpike (I-80) I saw on the map that we would be close to a Sturgis Michigan!!! We got off, drove there, so I can actually say we were in Sturgis during bike week!!! Even though it was the wrong Sturgis!!! They even had a Harley dealer there and I was going to stop and buy a Tee shirt that said Sturgis, Michigan but it was closed!!!
Yeah, I noticed that too. Heh, there's a Hell in Michigan too. No, not Detroit, a town named hell...
Yep, Michigan City's 11th St. features street-running South Shore trains - a throwback to the past - on a single track to boot. South Bend and East Chicago used to have street running as well. East Chicago's Chicago Ave. was bypassed in 1956 and South Bend's station was moved to the western outskirts of town in 1970.
I have a couple of questions:
Where did you stay in Las Vegas?
How long did the trip take?
I've always wanted to take a cross-country road trip. You visited, even without the cheating :-) more states than I've been to in my entire life (I've only been to 10 states).
Actually, I didn't stay in Vegas. We left Phoenix at 10 AM Saturday. We stayed in Phoenix (actually Scottsdale) for almost a week as my sister lives there. We got to Vegas in the afternoon, left at about 10:30 PM and eventually got a room somewhere in Utah about 4 in the morning. We would have got a room earlier but almost everyplace in Nevada & Utah had a no vacancy sign!!!Going there (to Phoenix/Scottsdale) we left on Wed afternoon 7/30 and got to Phoenix/Scottsdale on Saturday afternoon so it was 3 nights. Coming home also 3 nights.
I drove Route 66 east in 1962 and was impressed with a Santa Fe freight train with eight F units on the head end. I had never seen that much power on one train.
I forgot to mention in my original post. Besides the long freight trains and the Chicago els we also rode the monorail in Vegas between the MGM Grand & Bally's.
"Hoover Damn"? Geez, can't the guy get a break? The Depression wasn't ALL his fault... :-D
Frank Hicks
Anybody catch this fascinating documentary on the History Channel this afternoon? I never realized so much of London's subway system was financed by Americans.
Now for a technical question: the London subway uses a 4-rail system, with 2 dedicated to transmit the electrical power to the motors, as opposed to the three rail system we use. The technical expert on the show stated that by using the ground to return current (like the NYC system does) can cause underground metal pipes to fatigue quickly and can even electrocute someone. This seems far-fetched to me. Is this possible?
Hey! Yeah, I caught that just before heading off to work, I thought it was great. Afterward I had a desperate need to run the northern line in BVE, but had to head off to work. I even thought about pulling out the Laptop and playing while watching the show, but was getting ready to work, and couldn't. Still, I too was surprised by the amount of american investment in the Underground. Amazing that the first two real managers of the underground were Americans, and also the history that the Underground had during WWII, I knew it was a bomb shelter, but not that there was a bunch of operations centers located in unbuilt, or decomm tunnels.
The technical issue relates to electrolysis. Even though the steel rail has a very low resistance and the earth has a high resistance, anywhere rails that are carrying current touch the earth, some current 'leaks' into the earth finding another path to the ground point of the system. Any interface between dissimilar materials that is carrying current may suffer the electrolysis effect. In transit systems, the underground steel and iron pipes near the rail line are vulnerable.
London's approach to mitigate electrolysis is to have one power rail at +300v and another power rail at -300v. Thereby limiting most stray current to the rail bed.
Are all R142As for the 6 delivered, thereby justifying the latest going to the 4 line?
I've ridden R142As on the 4 twice (would have been three times if the 6 train I boarded at 33rd hadn't taken its sweet time getting into 42nd last Saturday night). So I guess the TA has enough R142As to cover the 6 line completely. I've also seen R142As signed up as 4's at East 180th yard.
The 6 has all of its R-142As, which total to 450 Cars (7211-7660). Whatever cars that still need to be delivered will be going to the 4. The option order delivery is nearly complete. All cars up to 7710 are here.
-Stef
"The option order delivery is nearly complete. All cars up to 7710 are here."
Is there a seperate option order for the R142s? I know that one of the option orders was set to begin in January of 2003, so i don't know if that has started early or not. -Nick
This is the Kawasaki R-142A option order. Unless I mistaken, 7730 is the last option order car for Kawasaki. Bombardier is in the process of delivering both primary and option order cars. The highest R-142 on the property is 7030, although there may have been another delivery which I hadn't spotted.
-Stef
What happened to 7201 - 7210.
They spent very little time on the 6 when they first arrived. I have not seen them anywhere since. Are they hooked up to R142s?
7201-7210 shouldn't have spent ANY time on the #6, since the R-142A order starts with 7211.
David
Unfortunately, it isn't that cut and dry. According to the website, you are right in that the R142A order was supposed to start at 7211 as I believe it did. 7201-7210 were to be from the R142 {not 142A} option order, but then the website says something happened to 7209 and 7210 and they have been seen at Kawasaki, thereby making a possibility of the option of R142s ending at 7208 and then would have 7209 being the lowest car number of the R142A order. Quoted right from the site:
"Two cars, numbered 7209-7210 and manufactured by Kawasaki, were seen at Kawasaki's Yonkers finishing plant. It is not known what happened to them; they would probably be renumbered into the Kawasaki primary order numbering range (may already have been!)."
Yeah, if anyone knows what happened to them I'd be happy to update the roster page.
But I was told that the ORIGINAL 7209 and 7210 were actually Kawasaki R142A production samples, not actual revenue-service cars, that's why those cars were nowhere to be found, that's why the Bombardier option order goes up to 7210 instead of 7208...
Cleanairbus
Tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. PST I will board a plane and head for New Jersey. I am going to attend the 50th Anniversary of the Aunt and Uncle's wedding. I plan on hooking up with Marty Seagal for a little railfanning on Sunday. Newark, and of course, New York. Yes, a trip to Coney Island and the Cyclone are a must. I hope to get to Coney Island around three or four in the afternoon. Maybe I will see some of you there. If not, then October for sure.
Fred,
Because of your exuberant praise of the Cyclone after a previous trip and the recent publicity over its 75th anniversary, I went up to New York and rode it for the first (and second) time last month. A great trip!
Bob
What was the date of the Cyclone's 75th anniversary? I didn't know it was quite that old.
David
What was the date of the Cyclone's 75th anniversary?
June 26
The man is obsessed with Coney Island!!
Not to mention the Sea Beach!:)
And the Mets.
Next he'll say he loves the B1 bus, because it gets him from Gravesend 86th St to da Beach!
Bring lots of plastic freezer gel packs to cool your head...I got lots of em stuffed in the supervisor freezer...stick em in my helmet above the webbing for personal air conditioning. CI Peter
It has been exactly one year since my post about my minor cleft palate and how it affected me. Thankfully I have now acquired a good attitude about it and I don't let it bother me so much anymore. Sure there are some small inconveniences because of it including a little discomfort I have from it sometimes. I look at it this way. It certainly wasn't the worst thing in the world to have happened to me and in my case the cleft palate is so minor that it doesn't mean much of anything. I feel good about myself in spite of have a minor cleft palate and more importantly like everyone else on this site I am a bondfide railfan. I enjoy talking about what is happening to the "Redbirds" which will soon be no more. I also enjoy some of the comments about the R-68s [Hippos] of which can be amusing at times, and I enjoy all the other aspects about "Sub Talk". One more thing I want to say is, if you have a small physical condition yourself, don't let it get in the way of things. Enjoy Yourself!!
#3 West End Jeff
Amen to that!
I agree with you. Once again, no one should let a small physical condition get in the way of things if they're otherwise perfectly healthy. There are more important things in the world than to worry about a small physical defect or condition.
#3 West End Jeff
Greetings, all...
Just letting everybody know that I arrived safely in Philly. My boss was gracious enough to allow me to take his laptop computer with me, so I'm able to check in from my hotel room.
I haven't done any railfanning yet (this is a business trip, after all), so there's nothing to report on that end. One thing I've noticed as I drive around, however, is just how many miles of trolley track and wire are still intact on Philly's streets. It's pretty incredible.
My interview this morning went very well... I expect to hear from them within the next couple days, so we'll see how it goes. It's with a mid-sized firm in Collingswood, NJ just a couple blocks from the Collingswood PATCO station. Wish me luck.
The other reason for my trip is to look for a place to live... I've been doing a lot of driving around looking at various communities around the city. I'll begin looking at specific apartments on Sunday. Again, wish me luck. Here's the "top 3" areas I've narrowed my list down to:
Germantown / Mt. Airy, Philadelphia
Advantages: Nice urban neighborhood, close to Fairmount Park, good transit access, relatively short commute to Drexel and Collingswood.
Disadvantages: Tolls across the river, very high auto insurance, city wage tax, possible crime problems in some areas.
Media, PA
Advantages: Beautiful wooded area, nice apartment complex (Media Station Apartments), good transit access, lower car insurance, no city wage tax.
Disadvantages: Distance from work and school, expensive rent (about $100 more than other apartments I'm looking at), tolls across the river, possible heavy traffic on I-476 and I-95.
South Jersey
Advantages: Short commute to work, no city wage tax, plenty of affordable apartments to choose from, far less money spent on bridge tolls.
Disadvantages: Too much of a suburban-sprawl feel, high auto insurance rates, lack of good transit coverage (PATCO notwithstanding), and I'd be too dependent on my car for comfort.
I checked out Northeast Philly and the apartment complex in Lansdowne today. The Northeast was mostly pleasant if a bit dull, but would involve too much of a commute for my taste. I might as well live in Media. Transit access is also a bit lacking. As for Lansdowne, the apartment complex I had my eye on looked a bit more rundown in person than in their marketing photos, and is further from the R3 station than I originally thought.
There's a big apartment complex in Blackwood, NJ that I've had my eye on for a while. They've got nice floorplans and they're located in a nice wooded area, but the leasing agent said they won't have anything available until mid-September. I really don't feel like putting all my stuff into storage and living somewhere temporarily for two weeks.
Regardless, I'll need to make up my mind before I leave, so that I have an actual destination for all my stuff come Labor Day weekend.
Just a couple questions that I'd like to have answered before I pick a place:
1) How much is Philly's wage tax for somebody living in the city but working in New Jersey? The best information I have is that it's around 5%, which would cost me about $150 a month. Ouch!
2) How much more expensive is auto insurance in Philly and South Jersey compared to each other and compared to, say, Media? I don't expect anybody to know exact dollar amounts (but for the record, I'm 27, single, drive a beat-up 1986 Trans Am, and have a clean record), but general percentages would be very helpful. And if anybody knows how these rates compare to insurance in Chicago, then that would give me a basis for comparison. I'm probably already paying towards the high end of the national average, but I'm not sure how it would compare to Philly or NJ.
Thanks in advance for any advice or tips.
Tomorrow afternoon I have a meeting with my advisor and the head of the architecture department at Drexel. They'll be going over my academic records (eek!) and my design portfolio to determine my placement within the program. Wish me luck on that; their decision will impact me for as long as I'm in Philly.
I'm still planning on heading up to NYC on Saturday. Those who are interested are welcome to meet me for lunch at 1:30 PM at Katz's Deli. So far a few people have expressed an interest in meeting up. (Sorry I can't respond to your e-mails individually right now, as all my saved messages are on my computer at home.)
Additionally, David Greenberger and I will be meeting up for some twilight railfanning on the IRT. We'll meet at 9:30 PM just inside fare control on the northbound platform at 86th Street on the West Side IRT line. David has a nice itinerary mapped out that will involve another possible meeting point at Columbus Circle later that evening, but I don't have the exact time or location. (He told me, but again, all my saved e-mail messages are on a computer 800 miles away from me now.) Perhaps he could chime in with that info.
That's about all the news from here... Again, wish me luck getting this job (They all but hired me on the spot, but I don't want to get my hopes up until it's official), wish me luck on finding -- and getting approved for -- an apartment, and wish me luck with my meeting at Drexel tommorrow.
By the way, I really F&#KING hate AOL dial-up!
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
Dave, I have some business to tackle in the a.m. on Saturday, but may be able to meet up with you in the evening. I'll send you personal email for details.
Best of luck on the interview.
Doug
Additionally, David Greenberger and I will be meeting up for some twilight railfanning on the IRT. We'll meet at 9:30 PM just inside fare control on the northbound platform at 86th Street on the West Side IRT line. David has a nice itinerary mapped out that will involve another possible meeting point at Columbus Circle later that evening, but I don't have the exact time or location. (He told me, but again, all my saved e-mail messages are on a computer 800 miles away from me now.) Perhaps he could chime in with that info.
Whoops, I just emailed you about this.
There will be two meeting places. The first is by the southbound (not northbound) turnstiles at 86th Street on the 1/2 at 9:30pm. Since that's not terribly convenient to most SubTalkers, the second is at the front end of the northbound A/B/C/D platform at Columbus Circle at 10:00pm sharp. From there we'll take an A or C to 168th (or perhaps to the end of the line and back), where we'll descend into the bowels of the earth and take the 1 up to either Dyckman or 215th, depending on whether we feel like stepping outside fare control. (If we go to 215th, we can try to get a view of the yard by night, but I don't know if anything will be visible.) Then we'll turn around and head down one of the most varied lines in the system (that would be the 1 between Dyckman and 96th, if you haven't been paying attention). I'll be getting off at 86th; the rest of you can take over from there.
If you're going to be meeting us at 86th, it might be a good idea to email me so we know to look for you. If you have any questions, email me by 6:00 Friday afternoon since I won't be checking my email again until just before we meet Saturday night.
NJ is notorious for the highest auto insurance rates in the country, but Philly is higher than South Jersey. Camden county is higher than Burlington County.
(NJ is notorious for the highest auto insurance rates in the country, but Philly is higher than South Jersey. Camden county is higher than Burlington County.)
Any urban area anywhere is going to be higher than a statewide average. New York State's average is brought down by Upstate New York, and that keeps New York #2 in auto insurance rather than #1.
Interesting playing with numbers. For employment, the NY State Department of Labor, at the request of the Pataki Administration, has been publishing employment and unemployment numbers for the "rest of New York State excluding New York City." These numbers show that the rest of the state has lost virtually no jobs this recession, and has an unemployment rate well below the national average, while NYC is in the tank. Kind of makes you wonder about the reason why the "upstate economy" is a big political issue, but NYC's trauma is basically sneered at by the "rest of New York State."
On the other hand, if they did the same division for insurance, it would show that those in the "rest of New York State" people have nothing to complain about, but inside NYC we're really screwed. Neither party has a political incentive to point this out, since it would eliminate insurance as a political issue to get what they want (price controls for Democrats, tort reform for Republicans).
My insurance? Going up from $1,000 to $1,350. That's liability only, with no tickets in the past 10 years (two minor ones lifetime), and no accidents in the past ten years (one lifetime, backing out of a driveway), between my wife and I. And no using the car to get to work. And less than 7,500 miles driven per year.
"Any urban area anywhere is going to be higher than a statewide average. New York State's average is brought down by Upstate New York, and that keeps New York #2 in auto insurance rather than #1."
That analysis is dead on, although New York is now only 3rd highest in average premium. New Jersey is first and Massachussetts second. (D.C. is higher than all of them -- which is why you may see some items which say NY is 4th). New York City rates are higher than just about anywhere else in the country, though, and by a significant amount.
... and just because you probably aren't steamed enough already, Brooklyn rates are the highest in the entire country. Having reviewed the numbers far too many times, though, I can also tell you that they aren't high enough.
CG
Damn, those are outrageous rates.
My wife and I pay less than $1,000 total per year for a '92 Honda Civic and a '95 Ford Ranger XLT, both clean driving records (hey, *I* have to keep mine that way, I drive transit and my employer is tough about it), and both less than 10,000 miles per year. And that is full coverage with $500 collision/$250 comprehensive deductibles!!!
Of course, we've had the same insurance company for 25 years -- and one that does not go through commissioned agents. It's all through their regional office in Sacramento (we live in the greater LA area though).
Government official, responsible driver, one speeding ticket and an accident which did not occur...clearing the accident won't adjust the insurance as a claim was paid albeit fradulently. $2100 a year for 1995 Olds Achieva. Always carry a camera and call for police assistance. CI peter
(clearing the accident won't adjust the insurance as a claim was paid albeit fradulently.)
You know, they holler about fraud, but if none of them fight it then they can just pass it on to the customers -- and make a profit on a bigger figure. Thus, the insurance companies do not have an incentive to fight fraud.
Old geezer caddy cornered his car on a sidwalk and struck my right rear tire. No damage...black marks to his bumper...claim paid without my knowledge for $ 1018. Carry digital camera, two way radio, multimode cellphone and official ID now. Screaming geezer four feet high in street after apologizing for 'accident' will be carried off in R142 Duct Tape for lock up. Even insurance rep said I WAS TOO KIND...was before TA when i did not know about 'shoe paddlers.'
Some parts of South Jersey, I've found, are actually higher than Phila (particularly areas close to Camden). In NJ, for some reason, though, more latitude seems to be given depending on driving records, etc. In Phila it almost doesn't matter.
Up until a few years ago some areas of Phila were treated like their suburban counterparts (particularly Northeast and Northwest) but that gradually changed. As one who lives in the Northwest, I enjoyed this 'luxury' up until about '96. This was about the same time that places like Elkins Park and Wyndmoor, which had '191' (Phila) zip codes, lobbied to have these changed, since insurance companies tend to (unfairly) group rates into zip code areas.
I've found that some companies (Geico is one) will not write policies in Phila unless you are part of a group that offers Geico as a benefit to its members. An engineering society I belong to has this, but I found that Geico's rate was ridiculous. I've also been told that Geico will drop Phila folks for even a single claim.
Another 'myth' I've heard is that driving fewer miles or not driving to work will help decrease rates. While higher mileage implies a greater chance of being in an accident, many big-city car claims come from break-ins. Driving a car to work also somehow is related to driving more responsibly since one wouldn't take chances, want to get tickets, etc in this instance (hah!).
The Royal Mail made a statement to a newspaper (I can't remember which one - may have been the Times or the Daily Telegraph) a few months back which read "The postcode (UK for zipcode) is there to help the Post Office deliver the mail" in a very pointed comment at insurers charging high rates of home insurance to people who lived on a hill because the valley 100ft below them had flooded this year. Looks like your insurers are in on the same corrupt game.
I think insurance companies in general are scum. They're no different than the mobsters who get tossed in jail for selling "protection."
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
I think insurance companies in general are scum. They're no different than the mobsters who get tossed in jail for selling "protection."
There are definitely criminal goings on at most levels in certain insurance companies. I'll let you figure out the details. The obvious solution would be to nationalise the lot of them.
Yeah, like a quote from Geico to insure a 19 year old for $19,200 on a car that I would buy for $2,800. And we wonder why some people take a serious risk by not having insurance.
I actually was referring to other practices, like the tendency of some insurance engineers to have a considerable rapport with the owners of garages and provide them with easily repairable "write-offs". There is vast capacity for corruption in the insurance game, a corruption which is about as hard to nail anyone for as it is easy to do.
Another 'myth' I've heard is that driving fewer miles or not driving to work will help decrease rates. While higher mileage implies a greater chance of being in an accident, many big-city car claims come from break-ins. Driving a car to work also somehow is related to driving more responsibly since one wouldn't take chances, want to get tickets, etc in this instance (hah!).
I don't know specifically about Philadelphia, but it's a fact that in NYC - especially in the poorer 'hoods - people are MUCH more likely to file lawsuits after crashes than they are elsewhere in the country.
especially in the poorer 'hoods - people are MUCH more likely to file lawsuits after crashes
That might have something to do with richer people saying "It's only $300 damage - it's not worth claiming".
Never be so kind...I learned my lesson after letting an old man go after his bumper struck my company car tire. My companys insurer paid a claim without informing me for $ 1018.00 and the accident is on my record....$ 217 surcharge each year for my personal insurance. Black marks on his bumper could have been wiped off...wireless phone. two way radio, digital camera and a big wrench will insure that as a 'good natured individual' will NOT be 'taken to the cleaners again.'
Always exchange information (insur. and driver license) with the other party.
In Philadelphia, you are entitled to a police report on the accident. This provides an official third party whose professional examination of an accident scene bears on what happens to claims.
That's allegedly the reason that Phila rates are so high - too many Phila lawyers (?). I've heard that statistic mentioned quite a bit about Phila drivers having a higher tendency to sue but I haven't seen the proof to bear it out. One problem we have had here is lack of enforcement - those who didn't carry the so-called mandatory insurance to get auto tags were supposed to have cars impounded, etc, but our benevolent police, feeling for the so-called 'working man', often ignored this. Even folks driving without licenses were given a 'slide'! Many times those driving illegally would sue (why they could, I don't know) and go for the proverbial bundle.
Now we have a program called 'Live Stop' where cars can be impounded on the spot if, when stopped, drivers don't have the necessary credentials. It started last month. Big surprise - about 4000 cars have been taken so far (and now we're running out of space to put them!). Our illustrious mayor delayed this for over a year and finally put it into effect (he kept saying people need advance notice that it was starting - why anyone needs advance notice to start obeying laws is beyond me!). Now he's taking credit and leading the charge to get insurance rates lowered.
One problem we have is the perception that everyone has a 'right' to drive. Our local Traffic Court decided this past spring to put scofflaws in jail and gave them until the end of June to pay up or risk getting locked up. The Court had to open on Saturdays to accommodate the crowds - people were lining up in the middle of the night, etc. It's amazing what happens when you 'get tough'.
Welcome to the neighborhood, David
As for insurance rates, Media will give you the cheapest rates. In PA outside of Philly you'll pay maybe a third of what you'd pay in the city.
Mark
Interesting. And how would Media compare to South Jersey?
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
That I don't know. I'm going to have to defer to anyone here who lives in South Jersey. Anyone?
Mark
Well, on the North Jersey Coast (Monmouth County) I pay $900/yr. for 100/300 liability coverage, one driver, clean record for over 20 years. Contrast that with my rates in North Carolina, where I insure my '96 Windstar, same liability plus $500 deductible collision and $0 deductible comprehensive, for $470/yr.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Glad things are going well.
Philadelphia's wage tax is higher than the state income tax. A sore point among residents, it's true...
Auto insurance: a bit higher in the Philadelphia area, but I'm not sure your rates drop just because you cross the city line. Check with an insurance agent and do some comparison shopping.
Would somebody post the Katz Deli location again?
Auto insurance: a bit higher in the Philadelphia area, but I'm not sure your rates drop just because you cross the city line.
Surprisingly, rates drop phenomenally when you cross the city line. A $1200 insurace package in Philly can cost $300 for the same car in the suburbs.
Mark
That's why Dave needs to check with an insurance agent.
I wouldn't necessarily trust the very lowest rates on face value. Companies like GEICO and 20th Century will insure you cheaply, but drop you as a customer right after you file your first claim.
Progressive got into trouble with state regulators after they acknowledged that they had low-balled their claims exposure and then couldn't afford to pay their customers' claims.
It's a mine field out there...
Companies like GEICO and 20th Century
It's 21st Century now.
Now if only 20th Century Fox would get with the program.
Would somebody post the Katz Deli location again?
Heh... I actually need to know the location as well... I forgot to write it down before I left Chicago. If I remember correctly, take the (F) train to 2nd Avenue, and Katz's is just a couple blocks north(?) of there. Katz's has a big sign that's hard to miss.
Corrections and/or more detailed directions would be most appreciated!
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
KATZ DELI
205 EAST HOUSTON STREET corner of Ludlow
Peace,
ANDEE
East of there. For anyone trying to get there from Brooklyn, remember that the F train won't take you to 2nd Avenue due to a GO -- the C will, instead.
Take the F to 2nd Av, but take the First Av exit. Walk 2 short blocks EAST on Houston to Ludlow, and you can't miss it.
If you live in Media and work in Collingswood, you won't pay the Philly wage tax.
Just letting everybody know that I've accepted a nice job offer from the firm in Collingswood, NJ that I interviewed with on Thursday. I start work on Wednesday, September 4th.
Whew! This ends a 5-1/2-month stretcch of unemployment that began in mid-March. Thanks to all who had me in their thoughts and prayers during this difficult time.
In other news, I had a meeting this afternoon with the department head at Drexel University to evaluate my transfer credits. He'll be placing me into the fourth year of Drexel's seven-year program, which means that all my studio credits from the University of Illinois at Chicago will be accepted for transfer credit. I was worried that I'd be placed into an earlier year and lose a lot of credits, so this is very good news.
I think I'll celebrate by having a big fat Rueben up at Katz's tomorrow. :-)
My third and final task while I'm here is to find a place to live. I looked at the place in Media this afternoon, but the apartment that was available didn't have all the features that I thought it would, and I decided it wasn't worth the extra rent or the long commute. I've all but ruled out the city of Philly because of the wage tax and the car insurance thing, so I'm now focusing my search on South Jersey. There's a couple places in Lindenwold and Maple Shade that look promising. I'm worried that I may have some trouble getting approved for a place, as I'm not exactly in good standing with my current landlord. Almost six months of unemployment will do that. Wish me luck, as I'll be needing it.
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
Congrats, and BEST of luck! Man, this has been a happy day for many!
Did you try The Parkview? It's in Collingswood, and it is walking distance from the firm you`ll be working in in Collingswood. If you need any information, please feel free to e-mail me .
I considered it (I had actually seen its listing on apartments.com before), but having lived in high-rises for most of the past six years, I'm leaning more towards low-rise buildings now. I'd like to be able to step right outside and jump into my car, rather than walking down a long corridor and waiting for an elevator. I'm also hoping to get something with a fireplace and/or a balcony, and I'm also looking forward to having some trees right outside my windows.
I guess this means I'm crossing over to The Dark Side and becoming a (gasp!) suburbanite... Who would've ever thought? It's too late for me, but the rest of you can still save yourselves!
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
Congrats and enjoy the Philly area. I'm going in today to do some "transit" riding. I want to see how the new Frankford Terminal
is progressing, so I'll ride the "el" up to see it. Of course, they are bussing from 69th to 30th st, do to signal improvements on weekends.
Good luck in your new job!
Chuck Greene
"British offucers will work alongside British soldiers. Be happy in your work." (camp commandant in Bridge on the River Kwai)
Well done. I went to Media on the tram with Dave Pirmann year before last. Looked like a nice place. I could live there.
Simon
Swindon UK
Hey, Dave -- congratulations! Best of luck at your new job.
About finding housing in South Jersey....you might want to check out Cherry Hill. BTW, you might also want to give chuchubob a holler since I believe he lives in South Jersey (If you can't find his handle I'll dig up his email and send it to you).
P.S. Did you get my email? My box was full, so if you sent me a reply late last night I may not have gotten it.
Doug
Doug,
David has my email address. We've kept in touch since he hosted the SubTalk Chicago Field Trip a year ago.
We haven't connected on his recent and current Philly trips because I was in Louisville when he was here last and I'm on my way to Boston in a few minutes today.
Bob
Nice shots, Bob! You GET AROUND!
GOOD luck to you man, i myself am starting with MTA Metro North monday morning. new jobs can stress us out, but u will be fine as long as u put ur mind to stay focused and do it
MTA/TA work is excellent work. Don't forget to salute below the icon of our leader: Roger Toussaint, former track worker. CI Peter
Congratulations!
Were you still seeing that young lady from a few months ago, or have you two parted company?
We're still seeing each other for the time being, and she's even helping me move out here on labor day weekend.
But... We've both agreed that once she gets back on the plane to Chicago, we'll still keep in touch with each other, but only as friends. It's a bummer and I'll certainly miss her, but neither of us were crazy about the idea of trying to keep a long-distance relationship alive.
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
It can be difficult. Been there, done that.
It's nice that at least you two will stay in touch. You can never have too many friends.
And don't chicken out on me. You get your ass to New York in October. I can hardly wait. If everyone shows up it will be one hell of a hoot.
Not to worry. My plane ticket has been booked. Are you planning on going to Shoreline with us on Sunday the 13th? Oh and Monday several of us will be railfanning. Hope to see you there, too.
That's the plan right now. You are ahead of me. I have to make reservations soon. I'm hoping to stay at the Milford Plaza again. Do you have any suggestions?
I'm staying at the Larchmont myself. It's on W. 11th St. by NYU. As for Monday, I will be meeting Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) at the LIRR waiting area at Penn Station. Subway-Buff will also be there. More details on that later.
I had the privilege of dating a lady like that once - only it was I who encouraged her to move from Miami to Davis, CA to pursue a career in wine-making.
I haven't heard from her in a very long time but she will always have a special place in my heart.
Good luck at Drexel University, by the way.
only it was I who encouraged her to move from Miami to Davis, CA to pursue a career in wine-making
Trying to practice wine-making in Miami would not be a particularly wise career choice ... Chateau Plage du Sud, anyone?
Kirschen auf Welch...undersink wine made with Welches vitamin fortified frozen grape juice. Mmmmmmm good fresh...skipped the grappa. CI Peter
Great news, David! Glad to see you'll be paying taxes again .
My third and final task while I'm here is to find a place to live.
Too bad you're not looking in Phoenix. On our visit there last week, we were all quite amused by the signs in front of just about every apartment complex (and Phoenix has a huge number of them): "$99 moves you in!" "Free rent for your first month!" "We pay all utilities!" "Ask about our special offers!" It looks as if landlords are absolutely desparate for tenants.
Anyway, that's good news about your job.
Such sightings are common in areas outside NYC, Boston, and the Bay Area. Even in Chicago, some landlords are offering specials like "first month's rent free" or "no security deposit." Although not quite to the extreme of what you saw, there's a number of places here in South Jersey that are also offering similar deals. However, I've noticed that the places that offer these specials tend to be on the rundown side and are having problems keeping tenants, hence the need for such gimmicks.
Speaking of apartments, yesterday I put down a deposit on a nice place here in Maple Shade, just off highway 73 between highway 41 and I-295. The apartment itself is nice (spacious floorplan, new kitchen, new carpet, balcony), and the community is set back off the highway in a heavily wooded area. But I'm still waiting to hear if I've been approved or not, so I don't want to get my hopes up too high just yet.
Besides that, I've already been to Phoenix. I think I'd rather live in New Jersey. :-)
-- David
Maple Shade, NJ
Great news that you've landed on you feet ... been thinking of you my friend.
I agree with this post.
Congrats, David!!
While I'm in talking mode let me mention:
7818-19 are on the Trash Train tonight. These may in fact be the last working R-26s. I forget the numbers, but there are very few R-26s now on the road, Widecab5 can verify the numbers of R-26s/28s/29s left. One wonders if 7818-19 will go back into service or if they will head off into the sunset. Only time will tell...
-Stef
8600/8636 were the last WH R29s used in work service. I retired them myself :-)
It is entirely possible that you are seeing the last or at least some of the last working R-26s. Most of the R-26s have either been retired or scrapped.
#3 West End Jeff
As stated in earlier posts,Flatbush by no means is a quick turnaround terminal, Never was meant to be long term Terminal either,IMHO instead of building transit hub at rector street why not use the Right of way under Nostrand ave and build new terminal.Or turn the route east and extend to at Least Kings Highway and build a 4 track terminal for 2and5's.Billions and Billions Being thrown around to Make Rector/Fulton major transit hub to help Mostly suburban commuters ,But Brooklyn residents are treated as if they dont Count or contribute to the economy.What do you guys think?
"Or turn the route east and extend to at Least Kings Highway and build a 4 track terminal for 2and5's"
Sent the idea to the MTA to extend the 2/5 in 96. The 2/5 would turn east, and using the LIRR bay Ridge ROW, right on Glenwood Road, then turn south on Utica and terminating at Avenue H. Would relieve part of the crowd on Nostrand (passengers now trying to cram onto the B6, thats the worst)
Response back was passed on to Divisions of Operation and Planning; havent heard anything since.
Issue tho, unless they are willing to dig a lower level to Nostrand, your adding more passengers to an already over packed stub. Gave this a bit of thought afterwards; since the F train has express trackage which is unused, could leave the 2/5, use the Culver express tracks and extend a line (after Church Avenue) east across the LIRR Bay Ridge Row
Another question tho, are you talking about just the 2/5 train, or the PATH also?
It's something NYCT planners have toyed with for quite a while, both to allow trains to enter Flatbush Avenue at a decent speed and, perhaps even more importantly, to provide for storage and reduce/eliminate the need for deadhead moves to/from Livonia Yard. It's not in the current capital program, however.
David
Also, IF NYCT were to connect the Flatbush branch to the LIRR Bay Ridge, it would provide a 'shortcut' to the New Lots Line via the 'wye' connection accessible through Linden Shops (branching on at Junius Street). This would make car transfers alot easier between 1/3/4 and the 2/5 and w/o compromising revenue service since this 'loop' would not involve normal service routes.
Smart thinking, but FRA regulations might come into play (grade-separated right-of-way and such). For the extra yard space, it should be worth doing. For non-revenue moves, probably not...although if the moves were done by diesel (Linden Yard doesn't have third rail, anyway) that might be a way around the problem -- though I don't think NYCT would want to do that on a daily basis.
David
Why doesn't the Linden Yard have third rails?
What do they do with it anyway?
It's mostly a track panel fabrication facility.
David
A little history: Linden Shops is one of the newer NYCT facilities. It was acquired from LIRR in the 80's and is a track-panel fabrication plant, BUT also has a diesel re-fueling station within the yard. Because it was a former LIRR freight yard, there was never any third-rail there to begin with. Since the yard is not for holding revenue service cars there was no need to add third-rail there.
I believe Linden Yards expanded recently with the acquisition of a building that was a former Frito-Lay distributorship on Rockaway Avenue (around the corner).
both to allow trains to enter Flatbush Avenue at a decent speed and, perhaps even more importantly, to provide for storage
The new work rules requiring cars to be thoroughly searched before a relay would prevent trains from entering Flatbush at a decent speed.
They could enter...they just wouldn't be able to leave for a while...
David
They could enter...they just wouldn't be able to leave for a while...
If garbage out is less than garbage in...
Actually, I thought about it after I went online. If a passageway connecting the platforms (ADA-compliant, of course) were constructed under the tracks, the trains would not have to relay. The tracks south of the station would simply function as tail tracks, allowing the trains to enter the terminal at a decent rate of speed without their then having to be cleared of passengers to relay.
David
That's "offline," of course.
David
Actually, I thought about it after I went online. If a passageway connecting the platforms (ADA-compliant, of course) were constructed under the tracks, the trains would not have to relay. The tracks south of the station would simply function as tail tracks, allowing the trains to enter the terminal at a decent rate of speed without their then having to be cleared of passengers to relay.
Agreed, but then there is no hope for a storage facility or a way to move cars to the yard.
Did the MTA decide to push back this project? It was on the website to tunnel and make a L/U area on the Bay Ridge ROW.
Has anyone thought of a loop (revenue track like South Ferry outer)? It doesn't look too impossible - take a single track off from the Nostrand Avenue Line at about Farragut Rd, curve under private property for 2 short blocks, then under Glenwood Rd, East 27th St, across the Brooklyn College Campus, under Campus Rd, then back onto Nostrand Avenue at Avenue H. This would be single track and would use just one of the platforms at Flatbush Avenue - the other would become disused.
You're right, Brooklyn residents don't seem to be as valued as suburban riders, considering that there is little subway service in southeastern Brooklyn. The same is true for those in Eastern Queens. These areas could definitely use new subway service, but I doubt if they'll ever see a new subway line.
Now we all know G O 's are part of life on weekends and latenights ,But it seems to me G O 's are just a little bit harsher lately For example The Q G O running express bypassing Newkirk making people go south to Kings Highway to go North to Manhattan or The N G O Were it went Normal Southbound and NorthBound Up the Brighton and there was No 4 th ave direct Manhattan service without transferring,Yeah I know they replaced switches But are some of these G O 's planned to make people not want to take the subway?If you Lived on 4 th ave that weekend were you taking the train unless you really had to ?Straphangers recently reported ridership has declined on weekends could it be Because of Insane General Orders? Is this a ploy to say Ridership is down so no raises for next contract?
In a heated discussion it was thrown out that bad contract numbers are the result of the Off The Street program undercutting the existing employees.
Someone with a bug up their ass needs a bug up their ass.
When this is all done there will be lots of extra jobs that will be cut.
Not likely.
Thia ia a very unlikely argument. Any public transit management will *want* offpeak patronage. The bugbear of transit operations is that the infrastructure, rolling stock and staff all have to be sufficient for the peak loadings, which occur for maybe six hours a day (three a.m., three p.m.) on Mondays-Fridays. The remaining 138 hours of the week, the system is underused. This is inefficient. Anything that increases loading in the offpeak makes the system more economic. So, actively discouraging offpeak patronage (even to try to keep down wage demands) makes no economic sense. Better to have more offpeak customers, make more money, and pay better wages!
Surely the real reason for the excessive number of weekend GOs is "deferred maintenance" -- when you stop deferring it, there's a big backlog of it to do.
(So, actively discouraging offpeak patronage (even to try to keep down wage demands) makes no economic sense. Better to have more offpeak
customers, make more money, and pay better wages! Surely the real reason for the excessive number of weekend GOs is "deferred maintenance" -- when you stop deferring it, there's a big backlog of it to do. )
That's right. If the TA could run one train every 10 minutes round th e clock, and have them full, that would be nirvana. As it is, peak hour service costs money.
The alternative to all these G.O. is to shut down entire lines, do a whole bunch of reconstruction as fast as possible, then get the lines back in service. It would be much cheaper, but the public doesn't want it. There are a zillon projects planned for the Flushing Line, but you can't shut it down. On the other hand, a one-year shutdown of the Concourse Line might make more sense than four years of G.O.s.
FWIW we have a "laboratory" case out here. The CalTrain line from SF to SJ is shut down all weekends for the next couple years to build 'express' sidigs and supporting crossovers to facillitate real express service. It will be interesting to see the ridership #'s both for the work periods and after. I expect it will take several YEARS for weekend users who are now drivng or changing travel patterns completelyto return to the line. (as a personal example, my own trips to a model train shops are curtailed)
(FWIW we have a "laboratory" case out here. The CalTrain line from SF to SJ is shut down all weekends for the next couple years to build 'express' sidigs and supporting crossovers to facillitate real express service. It will be interesting to see the ridership #'s both for the work periods and after.)
That will be an interesting experiment, but there are two key differences. I propose a 24/7 shutdown for a considerably shorter period, as on the Williamsburg Bridge or Lennox Ave line. And, I assume a network, as in NYC, in which people can take a bus to another train, perhaps increasing their travel time by up to 1/2 hour each way, but not forcing them to abandon transit altogether.
I wonder if ridership came back on those lines, and how quickly? Since ridership was rising overall, some attempt would have to be made to separate out overall growth from the short term trends. Perhaps someone from OP could answer that question.
Lenox only experienced a one-way shut down during that rehab. In the mornings ALL trains ran southbound; at noon, ALL trains ran northbound.
Trains running the wrong way just ran on another line. Granted it was a pain, but volume on the 2 didn't seem to suffer.
That's right. If the TA could run one train every 10 minutes round th e clock, and have them full, that would be nirvana. As it is, peak hour service costs money
How about what the Brooklyn Bridge Railway did: average 90 second headways over a 24 hour period.
I'd settle if the TA could run 90 second headways over a 2 hour period.
Again with the NY&BBRy! What was the schedule speed? How did
it compare with subways today?
What was the schedule speed? How did it compare with subways today?
The cable speed was initially 10 mph. I believe that it was raised to 12 mph. The average speed for today's subways is 18 mph.
Sorry for the delay in responding...didn't see the post.
So, they averaged 40 tph but the schedule speed was 33%
slower than today's slow subway system. I think we've
shown previously that tph increases as train speed decreases,
all other things being equal. If NYCT trains ran at a top
speed of 5 MPH, they could safely follow another train
within about 1 car length and of course the acceleration and
braking times for station stops would be negligible. The limit
on max tph would then be the dwell time. Actually, of course,
the limit would be that the fleet size would have to be 20,000
cars or so.
Any public transit management will *want* offpeak patronage. The bugbear of transit operations is that the infrastructure, rolling stock and staff all have to be sufficient for the peak loadings, which occur for maybe six hours a day (three a.m., three p.m.) on Mondays-Fridays. The remaining 138 hours of the week, the system is underused. This is inefficient. Anything that increases loading in the offpeak makes the system more economic.
Indeed, while there are other reasons, the pronounced "peaking" of ridership on the New York-area commuter rail lines is the biggest reason why their farebox recovery rates are so much worse than the subway's. The subway of course experiences peaking, but to a much lesser extent than the commuter lines.
(Indeed, while there are other reasons, the pronounced "peaking" of ridership on the New York-area commuter rail lines is the biggest reason why their farebox recovery rates are so much worse than the subway's. The subway of course experiences peaking, but to a much lesser extent than the commuter lines. )
The long distances are another reason -- more ROW and stations to maintain relative to ridership. If you eliminate the ROW (say it is the equivalent of roads, a public responsiblity) I believe their recovery ratios would be better.
When people want to make NYCT look bad, they look at cost per vehicle mile, and say the subway is more expensive than commuter rail. Of course, if your crew is moving at half the speed, but earning the same amount, the cost per hour will be higher.
Scheduled construction on MFSE will result in busing between 30th Street and 69th Street on Saturday ONLY! The scheduled Sunday construction has been cancelled because of the large crowds anticipated at the Sports Complex (Patison Ave terminal on the BSS) and WDAS Unity Day celebration on the Benjamin Franklin Parkway.
Scheduled construction on the BSS resulting in the closing of the Cecil B. Moore, Susquehanna-Dauphin and Allegheny stations will take place; all trains will run express between Girard and Erie.
"Sports Expresses" will run every 10 minutes during the busiest part of the day Sunday on thye BSS.
SEPTA press release
It isd my understanding that Bambardider built some of the R62 cars. I think those card srae linked- why dont they have problems. How hard would it be to tell them dont link any more acrs anmd then we do it.
On the Juice, Train Dude, among others-what are your comments!
Bombardier built the R-62A cars, not the R-62 cars.
Some of those cars are indeed linked. All of the R-62As were built as single units, and many of them still are. The linking into five-car sets was done in-house, after many years of service.
David
I thought the TA "linked" the 62/62A and 68/68A order.
not all of the 62as /68s though
IIRC only something like nine R-68s are still singles, and they're used on the Franklin Ave. shuttle. A number of R-62A singles have been transferred to the 7.
...and the rest are still prowling about on the 1 and 3.
But they were all ordered as singles and were only linked a few years ago.
That's what "IN-HOUSE" means. The TA linked the cars as opposed to the vendor doing it.
Which means in laymens terms 'Bombardier Big Screw Up.' I'm on my feet all day and Unca Bud asks me to pick up all inspection records after a five minute break. Did not take the break, searched for all records, came back to the office to sort em all out. Unca Bud says'gimme em all unsorted, you're still on probation and you don't want to F'up because this is your last day of probation.
I'm permanent and now off probation too. Gotta figure out what we can do September 17th. CI Peter
CONGRATULATIONS, Bro! And you didn't even have to put a bayonet through anybody to get there. WELL DONE! :)
I am so surprised by all of this today. The heat rips me apart, recline during lunch in one of my COLD cars, lady I care about breaks her silence of so long during lunch and Dept Supt in the afternoon lets me know in his way that probation is over. Everyone wants a piece of us at our age SelkirkTMO but you have to keep the faith. Sheath the bayonet but let 'My M1 do the Talking.' Coup De Gras? Big boom in the yard...lightning strike...like Big Bug meeting Armagededeon. Yard Super standing in doorway at strike...smacks himself up against the wall crucified with a smile...nobody hurt...jooose is always good when you Give Grace. CI peter
Yeah, but just bear in mind that YOU guys don't have to wait for days like these. You can taunt Ben Franklin 365 days a year, and at least 7.50 hours per day, lunch period excluded. Where else can you get a gig that lets you make bigarse blue flashes any time the mood strikes? :)
Thaais my point, Could Bombardier be told not to link the cars and our in-house peopel do the job coprrectly.
That is my point, Could Bombardier be told not to link the cars and our in-house peopel do the job coprrectly.
Yes & no. We could but assembly is part of the contract. TA people doing work that the TA paid a vendor to do? That's the stuff I.G. investigations are made of. Besides, TA is supposed to inspect everything after the vendor does it. (Hmmmmmmmmmm)
I understand your comments. It seems that they are doing the work improperly. To me, that too is IG stuff- payignf or shoddy work.
Problem is how can we inspect the coupler after assembly? The day after the R142 pullapart (I like pullapart biscuits) a H2C coupler was found sans the sleeve locking pin on track 66. Major work to disassemble...very heavy parts. The scragly witness mark drawn across the coupler sleeves only is evidence of movement...not of missing critical hardwares. I had to cut control systems in two of the three 'B' cars because the air compressors ran out of control. Bombardier techs had to go into the yard on live tracks to check the witness mark....TA....get a refund! CI Peter
I believe the linking was done about 1999, IIRC. It appears that the R-62a's from 240 Street Yard and the Yard that housed the #6 train linked their R-62a's, while Livonia (home of the 3) did not. I would assume that is because the 3 was 9 nine cars prior to 9/11 and linking sets would have created more problems than it solved.
The R-62's (4 line) all appear to be linked.
R62A cars were built under a different contract by a different generation. The R142 contract allowed manufacture in Canada but required assembly in U.S.A. The work apparently has been done by persons with little mechanical knowledge...the quality control of such work emminates of little supervision. What I have found during inspection wreaks of incompitence....TA has been sold a 'bill of goods.' When you inspect hundreds of battery cell assemblies and find 'hand loose' battery buss bars, you know that the person (s) responsible have no knowledge of basic DC electricity. Same goes for everything else...the lack of knowledge, care and responsibility. What they thought they would get by of in assembly of linkbars and couplers is 'tantamount to murder.' Our supervisors made it a point for everyone to see the results of the pullapart and remind us how such a condition could lead to the loss of life. Much older trainsets linked but a pair...the stress is much higher in a five car trainset considering the design of the trucks. Many more critical parts now have to be inspected for security but I must repeat that these trainsets are safe for passengers...a TT means only a delay.
CI Peter
Just to prove I don't have all the answers (as if I ever did) I have this question.
We all know that the IRT City Hall station is on a wide curve and the original IRT cars with their end doors had no major problems platforming those doors. When they added the center doors to those cars at first it would not be a problem because those doors had separate controls and could be left closed ay CH.
The question:
What did they do when they made the later Lo-V's and there were no separate door controls. How did they prevent the center doors from opening? Did they only use the cars with the separate door controls on the Lexington Av Local until 1945 when the station was closed?
End of question.
I am assuming that by the time the Lo-V World's Fair cars were placed on the mainline the CH station had already been closed so that there was no problem seeing as the door postions were different.
One thing that puzzles me - why are the '39 WF cars called Low-V's? The original Low-V's (what I consider "true Low-V's" 1915-1925) have little in common with those cars. The rooves are totally different. Were they always referred to as such?
The designations had to do with the voltage on the controllers. In the "Hi-V's" there was 600 volts in the box. In the "Lo-V's" it was the "36 volts or thereabouts" of modern equipment. The WF's carried on the tradition of lesser watts for tots.
Thanks for the speedy reply. So it has absolutely nothing to do with the aesthetics of the car? And I guess this holds true for the R-12's and all subsequent equipment as well.
Yep ... as far as the "V" designation went. The HiV's and early cars had TRAINLINE 600 volts which caused some interesting problems, not the least of which was "gapping" a third rail where if a section had the power turned off, it was possible for a HiV train to "bridge" the gap and REPOWER the closed section. In fact there were special signals to stop a train from doing that before it bridged them. There was also concerns about 600 volts in the cabinet.
Wisdom dictated that using the battery voltage to operate the relays and contactors under car and passing the 36 volts trainline was a lot smarter and a lot safer and all "modern" subway cars from the R1's on up had "Lo V" control. The IRT car classes went by name such as "steinway, gibbs, roof deck, flivver" and so on. There's others here who can provide a much greater degree of detail as there were many MAJOR differences between each of the car classes and many could not be mixed with the others. On the 3rd Avenue El in the Bronx, the WF cars were mixed with LoV's and that worked.
Yes, I've seen mixed consists of World's Fair Low-V's and Low-V's. On the Low-V roster page, I see some of the cars are labeled "standard motors" and others are listed as "Steinway motors". I thought Westinghouse provided the motors for those cars. Were the later ones powered by a different company?
Don't know about the provider, but those plain Lo-Vs mixed in with the WF Lo-Vs were of the Steinway variety. They could and did m. u. with the WF cars because they were Steinways, too.
Incidentally, the BMT standards were low-voltage cars as well.
That would make sense, because the first batch of A/B Standards were produced from 1914-1919, almost the same time as the Low-V.
Here, I've got to defer to those who actually KNOW the answer. The glittering generalities were easy but there's a lot of nitpicky details since the IRT had a tendency of rebuilding and reusing things, and modifying others. Big Ed, Uncle Joe Frank and several others have actually studied the extreme minutiae of all this. Hopefully it won't be a long wait until one of my buddies comes along and gives you a proper dissertation. :)
Hey Kevin --here I am again
Steinways ---anyone notice there were NEVER any trailer cars ---anyone now why ? (heh, no---!)
Steinways, named after the tunnel name, named after the Piano manufacturer who invested big $$$ with "Augie" Belmont on the Rapid Transiting of the line--were special cars with smaller motors and much lower gearing.
They were built on the dawn of the Low-Volt system being used for the IRT, 1918, and were constructed with a sample group of Low-V "standard Motor performance" mainline IRT cars. "Mainline (or standard) Low-v cars had larger motors and were geared for speed and trailer use in trainsets...and could handle moderate grades known to IRT constructions then (excluding the Steinway tunnels originally built for "single streetcars")
OK, to further continue --
Mainline Low V Motor cars could Couple up to Steinway Motor Low-V's fully, - however, the gear ratio is so different between the two classes that -- well, run a model subway car with a 20:1 gear ratio (geared high and the standard for normal speed) with a model subway car with 29:1 gear ratio (Geared LOW & SLOW, for grades and a good load puller).
The wheel tractive effort and torque and speed is different --same with the Steinway Low-V & Mainlne Low'V --the bucking and banging and unequal acceleration and speed rangers when mixed together
would not provide a smooth transition from stop to speed.
The 1939 Worlds Fair car Steinways (ONLY 50 MADE - ALL MOTOR CARS ) were built 'under the floor" the same as their earlier, older companions, and geared the same.
When transferred to Mainline IRT in 1950 (replaced by R12-14-15 smees) All Steinways, being all Motors, ran in trainsets of their own ONLY -(mainly # 6 Pelham co-existing with separate trains of Hi-V trainsets on that line.) and occasionally a Low-V trailer car or two worked in as all the Low-V trailer car was --was an extension cord for low-v MUDC door and motor control and lighting circuits---between Steinway motor cars---having the same electrical circuit for Low-V Steinways as for Low-V Mainliners.
To repeat, the motor size was smaller and the gear ratio lower (like driving your automobile in 2nd gear at 60 mph instead of higer 3rd gear !!)
Thus, Steinways all were motor cars and had a RED line under their exterior car numbers to designate their "different" class.
So, on the 3rd ave El, a Low-v trailer made a 5 car train using 4 Steinway Motor cars. Those one trailer car(s) per 5 car train saved them extra scarce working Steinway motor cars for an extra train set or two with a few spare motors for breakdown replacements...rather than using up all the remaining and dwindling Steinways as 5 car motor trains. They were trying to stretch the motor car stock inventory until they could dump the line. Those were desperate financial times for the TA and DA CHITTY back in 1970.
Eventually they had to bring in Kevins's favorite cars - the "AArrr"-12-14 SMEES to the (his) line to bail it out til the end from early 1970 thru April 1973 closing of the EL.
So, now you know what Steinways are all about --never had trailer cars for the Flushing line. Smee cars with 4 motors per car and no R-type trailers, were very adequate -even loaded, for Steinway Grades outfitted and geared as they were fron the factory as new" for the "whole IRT system"
Of course, a Steinway Motor could have a low geared power truck swapped with a Mainline Low-V, and itself become a (and syncro-mesh with, gear wise) a mainline Low-V...but like the IND # false "R-10" # 1575, it would be an odd ball and could not again run with its Steinway former mates...and Vice-a-versa !!
I hope I have cleared things up!
Regards - "Unca" Joe
OK, Joe, I now fully understand the difference between a Steinway and a Mainline Low-V. I always knew what a Hi-V was, but I am puzzled. What is a Fliver? (No, not a Model T)
IIRC Flivers were a hybrid of sorts in that they had a Hi-V trainline bus and Lo-V controls. They could not m. u. with any other cars and had to stay by themselves.
Hello Dan:
I posted to you an indepth tech story under this new post thread
RE: Pre-War IRT Flivvers // Reply by "Unca Joe" To: Dan Lawrence's Post
You will find it all there ---submitted Monday Morning 8/19/02 to S/T
Regards - Joe
Knew I could count on ya (and get my knuckles rapped heh) ...
Wow, thank you so much for clarifying that. That sure answers all of my questions. Perhaps David Pirmann could somehow save this for the archives. Or better yet, post it on the Low-V roster page.
The term comes from the type of controller used.
The original cars were Hi-V (High Voltage). The total voltage was channeled through the motormans controller. When he took on power it was the entire 600 Volts of DC. In the old days he could not move the controller handle to the multiple postion right away or he would blow out a good part of the trainline power system fuses. He had to take on power one notch at at time.
Lo-V means Low Voltage. I am not an engeineering expert but through whatever means used the 600 V is reduced to about 36 volts before it gets to the controller. This prevents any fuse blowouts when the controller is moved to the multiple position right away when taking on power.
I am sure this is an oversimplified explanation. Anyone care to go into greater detail?
AFAIK the low voltage is drawn from batteries on each car and not converted from third rail trainline voltage.
The Gibbs Hi-Vs had a feature which did allow a motorman to wrap the controller without blowing fuses. One of our technical experts can elaborate on this.
NOT ANY GIBBS CARS I KNOW ABOUT ---heh ---except the LIRR Gibbs MP-41 cars which featured Low-v control according to LIRR tech records ---IRT Hi_V cars used the cheaper H-v control (no extra circuits, no batteries for control circuits, less hardware on trail cars etc.
Ask Mr. Tibbets of Seashore museum who 'WAS' working on THE ONLY IRT GIBBS CAR left in existence (or WHEN he was working on it at Seashore Museum--heard a while ago that he got PO'd and stopped working on it some time ago - maybe someone can update on THAT)---
Take the old Gibbs out and fire her up, and wrap that huge Hi-V controller around ALL THOSE CONTACT POINTS & see what happens.....
besides blowing a cartridge fuse as thick as a salami loaf,,,,,and smoke, and a report sounding like a truck backfire with your ear net to the tailpipe !!!...yeah, wait till Big Ed hears about a " Hi-V" Gibbs "wrap around" - (heh heh heh heh)
regards - Joe
As a matter of fact, Jim Tebbetts (sp) personally posted a description of the controller on Gibbs 3352 on Subtalk a few years ago. Read all about it here.
Hello Allan
Sorry this has to be long, but it is all co-relative and fits like jig saw puzzle pieces to give a total picture --here goes.
If I recall correctly from an old obscure tech story about Hi-V and MUDC retrofits,
The Pelham seemed to always have Hi-V cars on it - and the doors when all cars had manual doors --could be controlled separately, independently.. The center doors had a separate lever to operate a "remote" air-valve operated center door mechanism. Of course, the end doors at the vestibules still had the "manual linkage doors.
At City Hall (and South Ferry before gap fillers)- the center door (remote air piston valve door control) levers would not be yanked.
Now a little more tech background on the door controls.
ALL Hi-V Cars built for the subway (IRT) from Gibbs (1904-5) and Composites (1902-3) had end doors only as built, manually operated by the twin levers at both side of the storm door location on the end of each car. The 1906 Deck roof cars similarly.
When center doors were cut into that earlier class of cars , a mechanical-pneumatic (air piston controlled) operating mechanism separately controlled the center doors, This smaller lever, and its downward connecting rod from the tiny reduction-gearbox at the lever end, was located under each end "storm window" of the vestible end outer sheet walls.
So, from this point (1908-10 center door installations to Composites, Gibbs, Deck Roof Hi-V cars---the center doors were NOT opened on any sharp curves (South ferry, City Hall) but at SOUTH FERRY ---ONLY the center doors were opened at the INNER LOOP where the platform edge did (and still does) have a solid masonry wall with "portal openings" lined up for the center doors ONLY on the standard IRT pre-war fleet. The center doors were the ONLY doors close to the platform on that long closed inner loop track & platform...reverse scenario of City Hall loop!
A "door guard or gateman" had to stand between each 2 cars and operate the end vestibule levers of each car next to his right and left-- as he stood between the cars on his stirrup steps, but he only operated ONE lever of the one center door...to his left... facing the front of the train. Therefore when the guard between the lst & 2nd car opened his doors, he opened the center door (small control lever) of the first car to his left, and the end vestibule doors of both the lst and 2nd cars cars he stood between.
The next guard did the same, opening the center door (small control lever) to his left for the 2nd car and both manual end vestibule doors (via the large levers) for car 2 and 3....and so on thru a 4,5, or 6 car train.
THE REARMOST GUARD (between the last 2 cars - opened both the end vestibule manual control door sets of his two adjacent cars he stood between, but also opened the left AND right (rearmost) car's center doors by manipulationg BOTH cars small pnuematic center door small control levers on the ends of both cars he stood between.
IN THE EVENT that ONE OR BOTH CARS of his cars were still in the tunnel (ie" short station..as most rearmost cars were expected to be in such situations) he had the options of deciding which doors to opoen or not on both cars, conditions relevant to same.
NOW --WE COME TO EARLY DOOR FORMAT OF IRT SUBWAY - SEMI AUTOMATIC DOORS -- but not yet full MUDC.
In 1915--an order of Headley-Body Hi-v cars came equipped with both the older style end "large lever controlled manual end vestibule doors" and "factory built" Center doors with the pneumatic small lever design - all hardware similar to that on earlier 1902 thru 1906 cars. Another batch of Hi-V cars (motors & trailers) came with an ALL mechanical-pneumatic door control system...but NOT MUDC type.
This was a primative fore-runner to the later retrofitted electro-pneumatical "MUDC" system retrofitted on many Hi-V's, all early Low-V's and factory-new-installed on the newest Low-v's from the factory (1920-22-24 models)
This early "automatic" door operation eliminated the brutal door opening levers on each side of the storm door. We can imagine they caused a number of back and shoulder sprains, injuries, etc.
Look in Gene Sansones Book --Evolution of the N. Y. Subways" Page 41, bottom photo, for a picture of this system..on a High-V trailer as new in 1918.
There was now a new system of two very small levers now located under the end storm windows, where the original single small pneumatic center door lever was located, and with two rods going down the exterior end sheet(s) and thru two holes in the conductor stirrup step plates, thru the anticlimber and to the car underside.
One small lever pneumatically controlled both end vestibule doors on that carbody-side of that car, the other small lever pneumatically controlled only the one center door on that carbody side of the that car.
This did have a small labor savings...ONE guard could now automatically, pneumatically operate ALL side doors on a pair of cars - three doors on the car to his right and three to the car on his left, with a small pair of levers to his right and left sides that he could yank with his two wrists, one set simultaneously at a time.
HE COULD ALSO CONTROL THE CENTER DOOR INDEPENDENTLY ---just as he could do on the early "battleship" cars - those having the "mechanical" large levers on end vestibule doors and pneumatic small levers for center doors.
This pneumatic system meant that in a 6 car train, you had a man (guard) between cars 1 & 2, (*) between 3 & 4 and (*) between 5 & 6. The (*) represent where a guard would be eliminated, but not so if these 6 cars all had the old manual type straight-mechanical "end-vestibule-large-lever-operated" doors.
There were still trains sets that used a full manual control vestibule door car type at each end of a 5 or 6 car train, using pneumatic door cars in the center of the consist. Likewise, a 5 or 6 car consist of all manual end vestibule doors, having no pneumatic door cars in the consist.
IN EITHER TRAINSET TYPE SCENARIO --the center doors were ALL still separately. individually controlled....for situations like South Ferry or City Hall Loop
OK - so now you see that these type cars ran on lines that used the curves at City Hall & South Ferry loops, and that under this fleet using manual mechanical and manual-pneumatic, thru the mid 1940's, you could control center doors separately from end doors..on all car classes from 1902 thru 1920 built.
ENTER Full-type-MUDC-control ---mid to late 1920's
The IRT struggling with the 5 cent fare, wanted to cut labor more. The MUDC suystem, used on other company systems & lines, was finally adapted to the IRT. The newest Low-V cars (1922-24) came with it--having Electro-Puenuatic door controls.
ALL doors controled at same time by a simple set of open and close buttons..no selectivity available.
The IRT used a similar system to convert about 450 of its post 1902 class wooden EL Gate cars to MUDC with enclosed ends where the gates and open-platforms were originally located, and outside hung 33" wide sliding doors, creating new enclosed vestibules.
The IRT converted, gradually, many of its Gibbs cars to full MUDC, installing newly built side end-vestibule side doors with a different (2 horizonal windows) window design. The end storm doors were ALSO replaced by a new "standard look" door sliding into a 2-wall- door-pocket (standard IRT design) this new type replacing the "hinged" swinging door as originally built.
Many of the 1910-1915 Headley Body Design Hi-V cars (those built NEW with their center doors---built just after the Deck Roof class cars) --those with the 3 panels in the end vetsibule and center doors --were converted in the mid to late 1920's, to MUDC - having their levers all removed and the MUDC boxes identical to those we see on todays Low-V museum set - installed.
The 50 deck roof motor cars were NEVER converted to MUDC --and spent their lives in the MUDC period as Pilot Motor cars at front and rear of locals and expresses...still having their totally manual-large lever econtrolled vestibule doors and the pneumatic small single lever for the center doors.
Many Hi-V Motor cars having the 2 panel (Gibbs, Deck Roof) and 3 panel (Headley Body cars) side doors would end up with a center door replacement retrofit with one single panel door of the Low-V style.
Hi-V Trailer cars had bodies and door styles (large single panel) like the Low-V Motor and trail class.
So, by the time City Hall Station closed - when was that, 1945, the IRT used cars only with manual-mechanical or manual-pneumatic door controls cars in trainsets --so to control center door operation independenly.
By 1946, all IRT cars still NOT having MUDC (Multiple Unit door control, as we know in use on cars using one conductor to operate all doors) ran as usual until scarpped in the 1951- 1959 period.
The first of these to go did so when the IRT 1918-1922 built Steinway low-V and 1939 built Worlds Fair Steinway class low-V units were replaced in 1949-50 on the Flushing (#7) Line by IRT R-12, 14, & 15 SMEE cars. Steinways went to Pelham mainly, where they replaced a number of non MUDC Hi-V Cars.
Of course, the center doors on all MUDC Steinways were not a problem at City Hall Station- the loop was already earlier closed to passenger use...and gap fillers had long been installed elsewhere at curved "problem platform" areas.... since the early 20's
Some of the non-MUDC class manual-mechanical lever controlled end-vestibule door High-V's Motor cars after 1946 were comnverted with MUDC trainlines so they could be used at ends (as pilots) and mid-train positions as needed with manual doors and pass MUDC electro-pnuematic door control circuits to sections on either side of them (mid train use) as well as Motorman MUDC door control indication light circuits. These were called "Modified" Motor Hi-V's, and of course still only ran with HI-V only class cars --MUDC cars or manual door cars.
So, by the period after 1946, MUDC was the rule on the IRT subways, Hi-V or Low-V type cars. Cars with all-Manual vestibule doors were utilized not only at both ends of HI-V MUDC-sets as "Pilot Motor cars" but also as used in 2 to 4 car shuttle services ---no MUDC or automatic "pneumatic" operation available in their lashup (except individually activated mech-pneuatic center doors)---ie: POLO Ground to Jerome-167 st.: South Ferry to Bowling Green: Dyre ave- 180th St.: Grand Central to Times Square, and etc.
The last bastion of the Hi-V MUDC and Hi-V "Modified Motor" mechanical door cars between 1950 and their passenger disuse around 1959-60, was the Pelham # 6, (serving separately with Steinway trainsets)
and Broadway (#1) Local and White plains Rd - Broadway-7th Avenue west side express.
Many HI-V Miodified motors were used in work trains until mid 1962 ---and replaced by Low-V's in that work service -- the Low-V's themselves being replaced in passenger use by the newest mainline IRT R-types.
So, now you can see that " true MUDC" IRT pre-war cars were not used on the City Hall Loop in passenger service as their center doors could not be independently operated separately from the end vestibule doors, and up until City Hall Loop Station closed, there were plenty of non-MUDC but semi-automatic "pneumatic-control-door" Hi-V cars as described way above, and manual-control-door cars, to allow customized selectivity of center door control in trainsets used servicing that station.
Hope this answers your question - Alan --tho quite long -its not a simple discussion of fact & history..its all co-mingled and related.
Regards - Joe
Whew! That answered one of my questions, anyway.
This valuable piece of info should be preserved elsewhere on this website - in the prewar car photo section, perhaps?
Joe, that's a great essay on MUDC! You didn't mention the
door controls on the Flivvers and the 1915 Steinway Lo-Vs.
Were they the same as the Hedley Hi-Vs?
Also, I think a handful of the 1904 Gibbs cars were not converted
to MUDC, in addition of course to all 50 of the deckroofs.
Update on Acela Service
Answers to Frequently Asked Questions
Q: What service is available right now?
A: On Friday, August 16, Amtrak is offering 15 departures of its popular Metroliner service between Washington and New York. In addition there are 100 other departures in the Northeast tomorrow to accommodate passengers affected by the suspension of Acela Express service. The Metroliners will depart New York and Washington nearly every hour on the hour during the peak travel times of the morning and late afternoon.
On Friday, August 16, Metroliners will be departing New York Penn Station for Washington Union Station at 6:00 am, 7:00 am, 8:00 am, 9:00 am, 3:00 pm, 4:00 pm, 5:00 pm and 9:00 pm.
Metroliners will be departing Washington Union Station for New York Penn Station at 6:00 am, 8:00 am, 12:00 Noon, 4:00 pm, 5:00 pm, 6:00 pm and 7:00 pm.
On Monday, August 19, Amtrak is expecting to offer the same service.
Full Schedules for August 16 can be found by returning to the home page and filling in your origin, destination and date in the Fare
Q: What service will be available after Friday, August 16?
A: Most scheduled service can be found by using the Fare Finder on our home page. The Fare Finder will reflect all schedule adjustments as they occur. Please check back to verify schedules as close as possible to your date of travel or contact Amtrak at 1-800-USA-RAIL.
Q: What can I do if I already have an Acela Express ticket?
A: Amtrak will continue to offer passengers who have paid Acela Express fares and who travel instead on other train service a credit for the difference between the fares.
To obtain this credit, you have two choices:
1. Use your ticket on a substitute Amtrak service. The Conductor will indicate on your ticket receipt that you are entitled to a refund for the difference in charges between the service used and service you purchased.
2. Exchange your ticket prior to travel. Ticket personnel will provide you with a ticket for the substitute service and refund the difference in fare.
Q: What should I do if I have paid for an Acela Express ticket by credit card but have not yet received a ticket?
A: There is no need to do anything prior to receiving your ticket in the mail. When you receive your ticket in the mail, exercise your options above if you ride a substitute service.
I find it interesting that this whole Acela thing came unearthed right after a competant individual (Gunn) took charge...it's almost as if the last people running Amtrak deferred it and let David G take the fall.
Anyway, I'm glad to see Amtrak doing the right thing and giving people the difference in price back.
The Acelas looked so damn beautiful but it doesn't look like I'll get a chance to ride one if things keeping going this way.
I find it interesting that this whole Acela thing came unearthed right after a competant individual (Gunn) took charge...it's almost as if the last people running Amtrak deferred it and let David G take the fall.
I don't think Gunn's going to "take the fall" for any of this mess... rather, I'm thankful that he's in charge because I think his direct approach to dealing with problems means it will get resolved quickly and far more effectively than his predecessors would have been able to do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Think about in the Early . Mid 80's when Gunn Restored and Cleaned Up service On The NY Subway after the Belayed matainence Period during the 1970's
I was too young (or not even alive) to remember Gunn's subway fix-up. I just find it funny that none of these Acela problems surfaced to the public until Gunn made them appear...surely they existed and were known about before he entered Amtrak.
Today's latest passing of the political hot potato as the Senator who train station implodes ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=55515&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/16/2002
(no subscription required, please exit left to mainway)
It sounds like they didn't do a very good job of identifying the necessary work items... all the pretty Gantt charts and network diagrams won't help you find the critical path if you don't have the key tasks identified. But they didn't ask this PMP for advice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, I've been accused too often of beating up on an innocent Senator, but let's just say that the CDTA is a dumping ground for political hacks from the county where the monument (or Boondoggle Museum) sits. Sometimes the septic tank does a Vesuvius in the wrong place. :)
What does PMP stand for. I recall studying about critical path construction in college (over 20 years ago). Is your occupation related to critical path or construction is general?
Piggo/Bill
Project Management Professional. It's basically a professional certification that indicates the holder has several years of experience as a project manager, has completed a certain amount of formal education in the discipline, and has passed a formal certification exam. It must be renewed every three years, during which time the holder must have taken 60 hours or more of additional education and/or published articles on project management in professional journals and/or presented papers at symposia, as well as continuing to work professionally in the field. I have been a project manager for about fifteen years now; for the last six plus years I have been managing software development projects for a major telecommunications firm. Ensuring that I know and understand the critical path of my projects is key to their success, as well as being able to manage the continual changes in that critical path (it's amazing how often it changes, even on small projects... risk management says you must anticipate the potential changes and be prepared... that's where most projects, mine included at times, get in trouble).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is project management hard? When I was an intern in a project management office, all they did all day seem to be sit on the phone and call people, and things get done if you call people enough, or so it seemed.
AEM7
Part of being a successful project manager is understanding the workflow. You have to be a master of both the big picture and the details, and you have to know (almost) exactly where every task is at all times. Depending on the size of the project, you may have several project managers (one often called a "solution manager" who coordinates and summarizes the work of the other project managers) or you may have only one. And you have to know your people - you have to know which ones will give you accurate status without probing and which ones won't tell you they're in trouble until it's too late - and how to find out what's really going on when no one wants you to know. It's an incredibly political job and can be very stressful, especially in a matrix organization where you don't directly control your resources (that's the environment I work in). And in today's world of flex time it also means you never get away from it... even when I'm on vacation I'm never away from the job, it finds me. (Case in point, I was on vacation in Canada last month with my wife, out on the shore of Lake Ontario on a Saturday afternoon, when my cell phone rang... one of my team members was working and needed some assistance. We talked through the situation for a few minutes and he was able to proceed, while I spent the next half hour leaving messages for several other members of the team, and then another hour on a conference call on Monday to gather some quick status and make some decisions about the team's direction for the next week.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've been told by several people that the 1/9 trains won't be going all the way to South Ferry next pick. They'll actually be going to Rector St, and will use a recently installed diamond switch to make relays, until South Ferry construction is completed.
I guess we'll be seeing either Chambers or a blank as the south terminal on 1 and 9 trains if they can't go to South Ferry. Rector Street is not on the R62A rollsigns, AFAIK.
Since there is currently no funding to reconstruct the station, people are telling you wrong.
-Hank
And how many years do you have on the job with MTA?
Like the rest of us, he can read what contracts have been awarded. No design study has even been funded for the proposed South Ferry reconstruction/redesign, let alone anything else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One year. And yourself?
I've been around long enough to hear T/O's, C/R's, T/D's etc... talking about upcoming changes.
Don't need to work for the MTA, just need to have the common sense to use the resources available to me, which clearly state fact and not rumor.
If there is no contract, nothing can be done.
-Hank
South Ferry is under construction. It's under heavy construction as I, and any T/O who goes through the loop has seen.
The Gap Fillers have been completely removed, and the A loop track has also been removed. My guess is that if it's possible, they'll run trains to South Ferry part-time, and use Rector or Cortlandt as a part-time terminal when construction is going on. We'll see.
cortlandt doesnt exsist anymore.
South Ferry will see full service once the line through the WTC site resumes. They are taking the opportunity now to rehab the track and moving platform equipment. Serivce to South Ferry MAY be inturrupted for three months in the summer of 2003 to accomodate construction of the Whitehall St ferry terminal (current plans leave no safe way to enter the station while the new entrance is constructed) It will take a minimum of one year to design a new South Ferry station, and at least two to actually construct it, not counting the time needed for the public hearings, EIS, protests, etc.
-Hank
Having seen it before, it takes two weeks for A loop to be removed, chipped out, new concrete poured and rails re-installed with no service through the station. The gap fillers can be removed and replaced in 5 midnights and two weekends without service. there is stilla month to go - I don't see a problem.
That is currect Rector St will be the last stop. An ATD office has been built from what I been told.
If that's correct, I'd hate to be anybody working at Rector St -we here on Staten Island have been promised the return of IRT service to South Ferry in mid-September. If it isn't there, there is gonna be hell to pay.
hey dont worry,the 1/9 will return to SF.that crossover is for the future whenever they finally decide to fix SF.so dont listen to what anyone else says about it,cause its not true.the only truth is that the 1/9 will return to SF and thats all that you need to worry about.
Will have to see what happens.
Dave, an official of NYCTA Capital Management Program told me that the diamond crossover by Rector Street is for use if/when there is a major reconfiguration of South Ferry in the future. It was an easy thing to do now, but would be tough to do after the railroad is back in operation. The activity at South Ferry now is work that is (again) easy to do while the railroad is out-of-service there, and will be done by September 15 (current schedule) for the reopening of the 1/9 to South Ferry.
As DAVID and others have said, 1/9 as well as 2 and 3 services are planned to return to their exact pre-9/11 levels and patterns.
Read the signs.
What are two Genesis engines?
Two GENESIS engines?
Two GENESIS engine?
Two GENESII engine?
Two GENESI engine?
Two GENESII engines?
Two GENESISES?
Two P-42's?
Two P-42s'?
Two AEM7's.
genesis, is
nom pl geneses (third decl. i-stem) (f.)
but if your object is communication in he vernacular, genesis.
LOL....interesting grammatical question. The noun genesis is pluralized geneses. However, I do not believe that the rules of pluralization apply to proper names. For example, if someone's last name is Goose, I would refer to his family as the Gooses, not the Geese.
I can tell you for certain that when you use the words "Genesis engine" together, the plural would be "Genesis engines". You would pluralize the noun, but not the name that goes with it. When using the name alone, I would think it would be one Genesis, two Genesises. Any English professors on board?
Plural regards,
G1RavagesDad
In the phrase "Genesis Engine" Genesis is the adjective and doesn't have to be pluralized.
The adjective doesn't change because adjectives don't need to agree with their nouns in English.
No, I'm not an English professor.
2/5 ths an AEM-7, ALP-44, or ALP-46?
At least with the various transmission and HEP losses, that's what the HP works out to give or take. One P-40 is about 1/3rd an AEM-7 or so.
Of course, you'd have a high starting TE, but above 15mph or so, that's worthless anyway.
that's what the HP works out to give or take. One P-40 is about 1/3rd an AEM-7 or so
Alright, so Phil, this is what you're claiming...
If I re-engineered the AEM-7 to be the following three-piece articulated unit: an AEM-7P power car, with four axles and pantographs, two of which are powered, plus two AEM-7S slugs, each with four axles (two of which are powered) and each slug takes power from the transformers aboard the AEM-7P, but is ballasted down to 150 tons -- I would then be able to haul a full-length coal train up and down the NEC with a single three-car articulated unit?
Them coal hauliers out west are only about 8,000hp or so per train, usually made up of about three 3,000hp diesels (which with the transmission losses work out to be about 8,000hp).
AEM7
Alright, so Phil, this is what you're claiming...
If I re-engineered the AEM-7 to be the following three-piece articulated unit: an AEM-7P power car, with four axles and pantographs, two of which are powered, plus two AEM-7S slugs, each with four axles (two of which are powered) and each slug takes power from the transformers aboard the AEM-7P, but is ballasted down to 150 tons -- I would then be able to haul a full-length coal train up and down the NEC with a single three-car articulated unit?
Not even. Take an AEM-7 and ballast it enough and you could do it with a single AEM-7. You'd want to regear it for a more reasoable top end, though. IIRC, one AEM-7 is about a 54,000 starting TE. Two of them could probbably handle a coal train on flatlands without modifications, but you'd run right into the short time on any sort of grade. This would hold true for the F-40's, but the F-40's got a considerably lowerstarting TE and very low HP (I think on the order of 30,000 - 40,000 lbs and effectively sub 2000 hp). BTW, the RC-4s are in freight duty in Sweeden now, though granted shorter, somewhat lighter (Euro axle loads on freight tend to be sub 25 ton), but faster.
With a near 70,000 lb starting TE, an ALP-46 could handle a lot of freights very well. In fact, I believe the Class 101 is a dual use locomotive in Germany.
Them coal hauliers out west are only about 8,000hp or so per train, usually made up of about three 3,000hp diesels (which with the transmission losses work out to be about 8,000hp).
Locomotives.
Two GENESIS engines OR Two P-42s would be correct. You NEVER use apostrophes to show the plural.
As for one GENESIS, two _________, I would use GENESIS for the plural - sort of like one moose, two moose.
Genesee.
--Mark
I'll drink to that. Though I prefer Utica Club. :)
Though I prefer Utica Club
Wow, it's been a while since I heard that name. My father used to love that beer. Actually, my first exposure to beer on a large scale was when I was a kid (no didn't drink it yet) and we went to that Brewery upstate for a tour while we were on vacation - remember it very clearly - never tried that beer though.
I believe the junction of the Nostrand Ave line and the main E. Parkway line east of Franklin Ave was meant to be reconstructed, though many said this would probably not happen. What was/is supposed to happen? Were tracks supposed to be rearranged for a smoother and much more simpler junction than what is there now? If so, what would it have looked like? This must have been important, because when one of the ERC {East River Crossing} studies came out, they altered the number of tph on the B-division based on if this A-divison project got done. How does the Rogers Ave Jct apply to the Manhattan Bridge? Someone help me out!
This junction is a massive bottleneck, but until Flatbush Ave is rebuilt with tracks extending south onto the Bay Ridge LIRR, any increased capacity by redesigning Rogers Ave. cannot be used.
BTW, why was Flatbush Ave built like it was? I know the line was intended to continue south along Nostrand Ave, but it was at least a planned temporary terminal, which would dictate a center platform like President St.
[BTW, why was Flatbush Ave built like it was? I know the line was intended to continue south along Nostrand Ave, but it was at least a planned temporary terminal, which would dictate a center platform like President St.]
The answer is in your own statement. BECAUSE the line was originally planned to extend beyond Flatbush Avenue, it was built as a through-station NOT as a terminal with an island platform...obviously, in hindsight it should have been done as an island.
But my point was that even before any thought of an extension south of Flatbush was abandoned, Flatbush Ave. was to be a temporary terminal. It should have been built as an island reguardless of what was to happen later.
Building as an island platform would have required a mezzanine, which would in turn require the tracks to go down one extra level.
The area has a high water table and even the underground construction one level down must have been difficult.
Do you think they should have raised the street level?
The line to the south would have been elevated.
"Do you think they should have raised the street level?"
If they had raised the street level, that means the other streets around would have had to be raised to meet up, would be too much.
Given the circumstances, the current set up seems to be the only option, that or elevated the line before and have FlatbushAve Station as an elevated station (traffic nightmare for Nostrand Ave before Flatbush)
If that actually happened, would that line been further extended already?
Pigs brings up a good argument. Anyone who studies the history of Brooklyn in the Flatbush area will know that a pond was located at the area now occupied by the Vanderveer Estates (housing projects). The Flatbush Water Works was located there and supplied the water to that area of Brooklyn. A residual of the filled-in pond is that whenever there is a heavy rain, Newkirk Avenue on the Flatbush branch ends up with drainage problems.
Newkirk Avenue east of Flatbush was called Paerdegat Lane.
No, you're looking in the wrong place. The junction creates a bottleneck on the Brooklyn IRT local tracks -- i.e., the West Side express tracks. Each 5 train that runs to or from Flatbush eats up a slot on both the East Side and the West Side, even though it only runs on one. Why? Because the connection to Flatbush is only from the local tracks. Every Brooklyn express (i.e., East Side express) going to Flatbush has to first switch onto the local and then, almost immediately, diverge to the Flatbush branch.
Let's say (for argument's sake, as I don't have the actual numbers) that the capacity on each track is 30 tph, and that the 5 runs 7 tph to/from Flatbush. With those 5 trains, the maximum resulting capacity on the West Side IRT express is 23 tph each way, and the maximum total capacity in Brooklyn is 53 tph each way. How could we bump that up to 60 tph in Brooklyn (and 30 tph on the West Side)? Two ways: rebuild Rogers Junction so 5 trains can get to Flatbush without getting in the way of 3 trains, or send all 5 trains somewhere else (Utica or New Lots) and run extra 2's in their place to Flatbush.
And what's the connection to the Manhattan Bridge? If the Manhattan Bridge goes poof, Brooklyn will need every ounce of capacity it can get into Manhattan. That means 60 tph on the IRT. And that means either rebuilding the junction or getting lots of people used to a cross-platform transfer at Franklin.
Damn, that fool is back
Hey, I heard that!
I've been in Sao Paulo for the past two weeks on vaction checking out all the hot women in their tight pants, eating the best food in the world, getting piss-ass drunk, plus riding the trains and buses. I plan on writing a nice, long trip report sometime next week, I want to wait for my photos to develop to post here. Some highlights include:
I broke my right index finger, good thing I'm left handed
My %@$^& digital camera's focus BROKE early on in the trip, so I had to buy a crappy Funsaver camera to take my pictures of the trains. That means I was only able to take 27 train related photos. I was hoping to get at least a hundred with my 128 MB memory card, which I bough back in Febuary in anticipation of this trip. Isn't Murphy's Law great? >:-(
I'm proud to annouce that I have ridden the entire Sao Paulo Metro
I have also ridden on the commuter rail system, and it was also my first time riding commuter rail, ever
The commuter rail handles three times as many people as LIRR. You won't believe the crowding, which makes Lex Av during rush hour look like MARTA at 2:00 am. Hopefully, my photos will show you a small sample of this.
Estação de Luz (Station of Light), this is the oldest and grandest of the three main downtown commuter rail terminals. It's currently undergoing a massive expansion/renovation (Project Integration) which will bring it back to its original glory plus ties together all three terminals more smoothly.
Doing rough timing of the Metro train headways with my watch, it looks as if they are pushing 90 seconds, which is 10 seconds better than the 100 seconds they were doing last year (published info).
Barra Funda, this is another Commuter terminal, the western end of Line 3-Red, and the busiest Metro station in terms of entries. It's unbelievable how many people are there at one time. Even with the 90 second headways, every empty train that pulls in leaves completely full (the trains have a crush capacity of 2000 people). They have to send an empty train past the station every once in a while just so the people at the other stations will have a chance to get on.
I'll get more specific on all these items later on, but feel free to ask any questions.
I'm just wondering, should I write an uber-long trip report? I don't want to write a really long report if no one is interested. There's a lot of cool things to write and I'll post the pictures when I get them back tomorrrow, but only if you guys want to read it. I hope they turn out good, usually with my luck they'll be too dark
We're interested...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Given the passenger loads of the system, it might be educational for some of our own here ...
YES my horizon does not end at the 'city line'
im interested.
Alright, give me some time though. I'm busier than ever, I started a new assignment at the Ga DOT, plus with my other job, I'm working 7 days a week. I 'll try to get it done in a couple of days.
Okay, post your favourite! Just one line, one stop...
Canada Water
My favorite station is Union Square on the 4/5/6, although I like the whole Union Square complex. The Lexington US station is very unique.
Oh, I thought you meant the favorite station, that's why I said Union Square.
Actually, my favorite station "names" are Bedford Park Boulevard (just like the ring to it) and Cypress Hills.
You can include Broad Channel for me as well.
Yeah, that's pretty neat too. Actually, alot the former LIRR Rockaway stations have cool names. I like the "Beach" in front of the numbers like "Beach 25th St - Wavecrest", or the other "Beach" St stations. If you look at the old LIRR maps, they had some really neat station names like "Goose Creek" and Ramblersville (may have been Howard Beach), etc. I don't have a map in front of me, but it had some cool names on it.
Actually, speaking of the old LIRR Rockaway stations, I know Parkside was called that because it was near Forest Park, but where did "Brooklyn Manor" come from? That station was where the former Rockaway branch met the Jamaica El at Woodhaven Blvd. I don't even think that's in Brooklyn!
A neighborhood name, that's all. It doesn't neccesarily mean Brooklyn Manor has to be in Brooklyn just like Coney Island Ave goes nowhere near Coney Island. I don't count Brighton Beach as Coney Island.
I had the book " Change at Ozone Park" at one time. The Hamilton Beach station had a nice ring to it as well. I saw how Broad Channel used to be a community on stilts, right on the water. No wonder that neat-looking trestle burned down. It was a fire trap to begin with. But either way, it was nice to see how the Jamaica Bay and Rockaway Peninsula looked before our time. I recommend getting this book.
Yeah, that is a good book. It has a few cool photos of the still existing abandoned station at Atlantic Ave on the Rockaway Branch. Just a few weeks before I bought that book years ago, I explored that old station and took photographs of it with the track area as basically a forest. I was amazed at how it used to look, it was nice to see some shots of it when it was being used. That may be the book that has the map in it that I was thinking of.
That's the one.
Well, not sure if you're asking about the favorite NAME or the name of the favorite STATION. All of mine are in Barcelona; Besós on L4 (translates into English as "kisses") and Vilapiscina on L5 (translates as "fish house") if you're asking for the favorite name, but my favorite station is Plaza Catalunya.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Besos without the accent means "kisses"; besós with the accent might be a totally different word...That station name might not translate as "kisses" but something else...or it might just be a name...
(Yes, I know some Spanish)
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Spuyten Duyvil (Devil's Creek)"
Well, the name's not Spanish, it's Catalan - in Catalan they use the accent on that word, in Spanish they don't. I lived there 30 years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course Besòs is so called after Sant Adrià de Besòs - quite who Saint (H)Adrian of the Kisses was, I have no idea!
Catalunya station confuses me - it took me 10 minutes to find the FGC U7 platform last time I was there. Next time I'm in Barcelona, I'll probably go to Diagonal on L3 and L5 then walk through the long connecting passages to Provença on U6 and U7.
My favourite station name in Barcelona is Gloriès - located in the wonderfully named Plaça de les Glòries Catalanes (Place of the Catalan Glories), despite this being just about the scariest road junction in Barcelona. Other Barcelona stations with good names are Paral.lel (named after the Av Paral.lel which runs parallel to the Equator) and Tibidabo (I shall give you).
My favourite Barcelona stations are cheating a bit: Sants (North-Eastbound to get a 1st Class seat on the Catalunya Express) and El Clot - Aragó (first Barcelona station you reach inbound on the Catalunya Express). Drassannes is fun - BIG curve from the Av Paral.lel heading East to La Rambla heading North-West immediately before the station :D watch the tourists fall over!!!
Speonk
Foggy Bottom
I don't know why, but: Mt Vernon Sq-UDC (back when it still used the UDC suffix)
Forest Hills (NY or Boston..take ur pick) :-) -Nick
Dunno. There are many. Barking, Swiss Cottage, Shoreditch, and of course....Cockfosters.
Have to vote for Swiss Cottage. Especially the way the "Mary Poppins" automated voice announces the stop.
If you count suburban lines, Denham Golf Club for having a very silly name wonderfully expressing its pointlessness. Restricted to LU, it has to be the one and only Mornington Crescent! I win!!!
My favourite London Underground stop name (I guess it should be London if it's the "favourite") is Elephant & Castle. Always loved that name.
-- Ed Sachs
Bowling Green. Above ground, Cypress Hills, Coney Island, and Pelham Bay Park.
Tiu Keng Leng on the Kwun Tong Line in Hong Kong. It can either mean "Adjustable Viewpoint" or "Hanging Point".
My all time favorite is Picadily Circus. Hope I spelled it right.
It's Piccadilly Circus, conveniently on the Piccadilly Line. I've been there.
conveniently on the Piccadilly Line.
Depends where you're starting from if the Piccadilly Line's convenient or not. I've always thought the Bakerloo Line most convenient, but I do have a strange perspective with my train going into Marylebone.
You know, now that I think about it, Marylebone sounds like a good name for a subway/underground station. Maida Vale is also nice. The MBTA also has some good nmanes on the Green Line like Prudential, Copley, Museum and Symphony. Why don't we have names like that here in New York?
You know, now that I think about it, Marylebone sounds like a good name for a subway/underground station.
It's an even better station upstairs, believe me!
Why don't we have names like that here in New York?
NYC has some great names: Broadway - Lafayette, Grand Central, Broadway Junction, Cypress Hills, Sheepshead Bay...
Mine has to be...
"U Street/African American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo"
When I first saw it---I thought, Oh yeah, right, can you make it LONG enough?
For those that don't recognize it, it's on the Green Line of the DC Metro---
U Street/African American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo
Call that long?
How about this Paris one for length:
Bobigny - Pablo Picasso (Préfecture - Hôtel du Département)
Times Square on the 1/2/3/9
Crains NY is reporting the following. I prefer extending the path down the 2/3 or 4/5 connecting at atlantic terminal and sending it down the atlantic ave LIRR tracks
Bank of New york also has signed on for the 10 story office tower to be built over atlantic terminal
As more attention is paid to downtown transportation improvements, Brookfield Financial Properties is becoming more visible in promoting its controversial idea of linking the Long Island Rail Road to lower Manhattan.
In recent weeks, officials from Brookfield, downtown’s largest commercial landlord, has made presentations to Community Board 1 and the Empire State Transportation Alliance, a coalition of civic groups. Also, Brookfield plans to present its plans to the infrastructure committee of the New York City Partnership next Tuesday.
"We’re not running around calling everybody," a Brookfield spokesman says. "All these meetings are in response to people who called us."
Brookfield is proposing an express subway that would link the LIRR station at Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn to lower Manhattan. Brookfield’s studies estimate the cost to be $1.9 billion, though the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which is skeptical of the plan, says the plan could cost as much as $5 billion. The real estate industry strongly supports the plan, saying better commuter access to downtown is needed. But transit advocates oppose it, fearing it will divert funds away from existing major projects, including the proposed Second Avenue subway.
Copyright 2002, Crain Communications, Inc
Brookfield knows it will never get the MTA to go along with the absurd LIRR via Cranberry tunnel connection. What they really want (and also won't get) is a new direct LIRR to downtown tunnel, either from Brooklyn or down the west side from Penn Station.
The most logical way to get the LIRR into lower Manhattan is to deep bore a tunnel under the subway junctions at Flatbush/Atlantic/Lafayette Aves , connecting the new transit hub underneath the WTC site via an East River tunnel. Like PATH riders had, LIRR riders would have a choice between lower and midtown Manhattan east of Jamaica.
The PATH extension is a greater idea, Plus, its PATH that has to pay the bill, not the MTA, that would relieve the fear of funds being diverted from other MTA subway projects like the 2nd Avenue
Furthermore, what is wrong with the High Line? If its too old to handle the load, it can be ripped up and redone like the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was. Using the tracks throght Maspeth area as an express route to Jamaica.
If they do that, maybe the PATH can completely take over the Altantic-Flatbush Branch
Any thoughts on that?
nope.It's MTA's problem,and they should handle it.Once the LIRR's midtown line opens[63 st],the Brooklyn branch with be ''surplus''trackage.... what should happen.. the TA takes over the Alantic brach,hooks up withj one of the subways in the ares[such as the A/C],and creat a BART type service[high end subway cars built to commuter like standards],and run its line to QUEENS VILLAGE,and Valley Stream and/or the AIRPORT via AIRTRAIN tracks. That way,a new route is created from piecing lines to gether,you get direct service from lower Manhattan to Jamaica via downtown Brooklyn,and you get subway service in Queen/Nassau areas where none exsist at this time...plus yo u get a one seat ride to the AIRPORT>>>> It all works out!!!!
Efforts to just maintain the current system is enough to keep the MTA tied up. It seems like the MTA has enough on its plate; enough to constantly slow down its abiltity to expand, extensions for example.
If the Atlantic Avenue Branch is extended pass Flatbush into Manhattan, would also create a better connection between the airports (more focused on that than just/only a faster route bet LI and Manhattan)
Does anyone know, or have seen a diagram of Flatbush-Altantic Avenue Station when its completed?
Whats behind my aggitation/fear is that construction is already underway for the terminal, I would be disgusting to see the terminal completed, then ripped up again (thats time and money)
NORTHEAST CORRIDOR SERVICE DISRUPTION
FRIDAY AUGUST 16 THRU MONDAY AUGUST 19
.
FRI 16AUG AND MON 19AUG
ACELA EXPRESS> ALL SERVICE ANNULLED
METROLINER> METROLINERS WILL OPERATE INSTEAD OF ACELA EXPRESS
ON THE FOLLOWING NEW YORK TO WASHINGTON DEPARTURES> 600A,
700A, 800A, 900A, 300P, 400P, 500P, AND 900P.
METROLINERS WILL OPERATE INSTEAD OF ACELA EXPRESS ON THE
FOLLOWING WASHINGTON TO NEW YORK DEPARTURES> 600A, 800A,
1200N, 400P, 500P, 600P, AND 700P. THESE TRAINS WILL
OPERATE WITH THE SAME 2100-SERIES TRAIN NUMBERS NORMALLY US
BY THE ACELA EXPRESS SERVICES THEY REPLACE, BUT ARROW WILL
SELL USING METROLINER BOOKING CODES
PASSENGERS WILL BE CHARGED METROLINER FARES. THE TRAINS WILL
MAKE THEIR USUAL INTERMEDIATE STOPS AND WILL RUN AS CLOSE A
POSSIBLE TO ACELA EXPRESS SCHEDULES. ANY PASSENGERS WHO HAD
PURCHASED TICKETS FOR THESE TRAINS BEFORE ARROW WAS CHANGED
TO REFLECT METROLINER SERVICE MAY USE SUCH TICKETS TO RIDE
AND CONDUCTORS WILL DOUBLE-PUNCH THE CUSTOMER$S RECEIPT SO
THE CUSTOMER MAY OBTAIN A REFUND OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THE ACELA EXPRESS AND METROLINER FARES
PASSENGERS MAY ALSO DOWNGRADE EXCHANGE BEFORE TRAVEL IF THEY
WISH; SUCH REFUNDS ARE TO BE HANDLED AT THE TICKET OFFICE.
ARROW WILL BE UPDATED ONCE THESE HAVE BEEN DETERMINED.
SAT 17AUG AND SUN 18AUG>
SERVICE CHANGES FOR THIS WEEKEND ARE UNDER REVIEW, AND FURTHE
INFORMATION WILL BE PROVIDED ON FRI, 16AUG.
Acela Express service was cancelled because AMTRAK found cracks under its 18 locomotives. Anyone have any details?
Here's a place to start.
And here's an earlier thread with earlier pressreleases.
Man, you was really missing out, everybody was talking about those damn cracks.
You go to previous posts and then you will see the discussions.
Chaohwa
AS I've said before you really are CLUELESS.
PEACE,
ANDEE
That's true, I don't mean to rag on pete, but he is clueless especially when we talk about stuff already he comes out of no where wondering what the hell happen.
AMEN.
Peace,
ANDEE
WASHINGTON – This weekend Amtrak will offer 92 departures between Washington and New York to accommodate passengers inconvenienced by the suspension of Acela Express service earlier this week. Hourly service will be available on Saturday and Sunday at most major stations throughout the Northeast Corridor.
On Monday, service will resume with Metroliners departing New York and Washington nearly every hour on the hour during the peak travel times of the morning and late afternoon (a 7:05am regional train from Washington to New York is the sole exception to the peak hourly Metroliner service.) This represents an increase in the number of Metroliners Amtrak normally operates on weekday from 9 to 15. Amtrak will offer 71 departues on Monday (not including Clocker and Keystone service.) The 92 trains running this weekend represent a decrease of only 24 from a standard weekend schedule.
Late yesterday, Amtrak and federal rail safety officials accepted a temporary remedy presented by Bombardier and Alstom, manufacturers of the Acela Express trainsets. Installation of this remedy – a thicker version of the bracket in most cases, or the grinding out of superficial cracks in less serious cases – has begun at Amtrak maintenance facilities in Washington, Philadelphia, New York, and Boston. However, no timetable for the full return of Acela Express service has yet been determined.
Amtrak will continue to offer passengers who have previously paid Acela Express fares and who travel instead on Metroliner or other train service a credit for the difference between the fares. Passengers are encouraged to check departures by logging onto www.amtrak.com or calling 1-800-USA-RAIL for further information.
The press releases and statements all seem to deal with Washington to New York. As a holder of two Acela Express tickets from PHL to BOS for Saturday morning, I'd feel better if I heard something about New York to Boston service.
The last time I looked on Amtrak's website, though, my train was still listed. Most of the other PHL to BOS trains were said to be unavailable, so I expect to get to Boston Saturday afternoon or night.
The first Southern New Jersey Light Rail Transit System diesel car was delivered this week. It is a three section articulated car, with the diesel power unit in the short center section. It flew from Germany in a Russian Antonov cargo plane. Upon arrival in Atlantic city airport, it was disconnected, having flown as a three-section car, 103 feet long. It was trucked to Camden as three separate pieces, unloaded from the trailers onto rail, and pushed into the shop at 32nd Street, where the three sections were re-connected Friday afternoon August 16.
I photographed #3504B (north end of the car) while still on the trailer, and again inside the shop, along with 3504 C and B.
The end sections are cab/passenger cars, while the diesel propulsion system is in the short center unit. 3504A and 3504C (south end and power section, respectively) were already connected when I was in the shop (3 PM Friday), and 3504B was not yet connected to them.
Twelve photographs taken outside and inside the SNJLRTS shop at 32nd Street, Camden, are on my Webshots page, the last 12 photos on the page.
Bob
SNJ LRTs delivered by huge Antonovs... I suspect something Socialist affoot. I can feel the HF ringing from Radio Moscow....'You are tuned to Radio Moscow and our next programme is commentary from Vladimir Posner, English speaking commentator of Radio Moscow discussing Soviet aeronautical achievement.' Wadayawontfor thirtyfivecents....to live forever? CI Peter
Here are photos of loading the car onto the Antonov 124-100 at Berlin's Schönefeld airport.
Thankyou...printout goes posted in the shop. Roooskies will be very happy. As for TA, these LRTs would be far better than what they're buying. Modify em for platform height and track/line width. Lighter trainsets...energy efficient. Make five car trainsets...more units on the line...happier customers...and more TA employment opportunities. I have lived through subway platform extensions never knowing I would someday work for TA and have to walk the IRT ten car trainsets a dozen times in a day...IND is far too long. Ta no longer needs high traction power trainsets...system is keyed for 40 MPH. The bid system is crap...a basic trainset garunteed for ten years at half price sans the electronics is far better than NewTech cars at 1.4/1.6 million dollars apiece expected to last for generations. It's politics as usual. CI peter
Isn't the An-124 is the worlds SECOND-largest cargo plane (cargo volume) and capable of carrying the heaviest load? (as opposed to the Airbus 'Super Guppy', which is first in volume, second in load)
-Hank
The largest Cargo plane in the world is the Antonov-225 "Dream." It has six engines and something like 35 or 40% more cargo room than a C-5B Galaxy. It is a monster.
With a full load, however, it won't go much farther than 500 miles. So if you want to use it for a cross-country trip, you can only load it about half full.
The McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) C-17A carries the highest payload in an aircraft capable of Short Take-off and Landing (STOL), and it is arguably the most capable STOL transport in the world. See www.boeing.com for more data.
Historically, there was a Super Guppy based on a modification of a B-29 bomber which was used, in the 1960's and 1970's, to ferry Apollo program rocket sections from manufacturing plants in the Western US to Cape Canaveral, Florida, to be assembled into the Saturn V.
I think the Antinov AN-225 is a bigger plane than either, beating the Super Guppy for capactity and the An-124 for lifting ability. There are only three in exsitence, one is flying, one is mothballed, and the other is lying in pieces on a factory flor in the Ukraine. It was built to haul both the space shuttle, and a large bladder of rocket fuel, be it LOX, RP-1, or Kerosene. I got to see one of these thing fly over my house in seattle as part of a goodwill airshow tour in 1988. Although only about 5 at the time, I can vividly remember the size of the thing, seemingly hundreds of times larger than the 747s and 767s I was used to seeing out of Boeing Field.
I think the Super Guppys were beat out earlier than the An-225 by the Aircrappy A300 Super Transporter, built to replace Airbus' own Super Guppys. Airbus had been kinda miffed that it had to fly pieces of it's own flagship planes, the A330 and A340 from it's factory in Germany to it's final assembly point in Tolouse (Sp?), France in 50 year old airliners from it's greatest corperate rival. They adapted an A300 frame to the same body style as the Super Guppys, but with an upward hinged door rather than the side hinged door of the Guppy family.
Pictures of both planes are available from Airliners.net, but I had problems with making hyperlinks to their site, so you'll just have to go to Airliners.net, click "use Photos", agree to thing about not selling those pictures, and then both aircraft are within the first 15 or so lines on the aircraft search area, under Antinov and Airbus.
Ewwww!
Those cars make the MBTA Breda Type 8s look like little toys!
Cleanairbus
There was an interesting article earlier this week in the Inquirer about families who live along the line and the 'noise, disruption, etc' they face once it starts operating. !
When's the Field Trip?
They sure look nice. I hope to ride them as soon as the line opens. I hope other transit agencies, maybe MBTA, SEPTA, ConnDOT or RIDOT will consider using them. I hope they do well (have to say that, these are Bombardier products and we all are aware of the problems the R142s and Acela Express trains are having).
What is the difference between SNJ LRTS and R142s? Something must be afoot if 'Antonovs' were the delivery vehicle of choice. CI Peter
The difference is the cars were manufactured in Germany, and a Russian transport carrier offered the German manufacturer attractive pricing for shipping the cars on Antonov aircraft.
The R142's undergo final assembly here, with components built, in part, overseas.
If Bombardier had trainsets assembled by Alstrom 'Fabriken auf Deutschlund' like R142s....mebbe we would not have a line full of uninspected/defective trainsets. Russia cannot afford the Antonovs...fuel, maintainance and crew standing idle cost. The two biggest aircraft carriers in the world??? One is complete, one is not. Nuclear powered, sitting idle with a standby crew of over two hundred. Shift Bombardier TA contracts to Germany, nuke Plattsburgh and ship assembled units by Antonov...21st Century 'Spruce Goose.' Wanna cheap deal on an aircraft carrier? CI Peter
We have a dozen of our own, and they work a lot better...the French and the Brits don't like anything but home-grown stuff.
Maybe Germany would buy one.
You are VERY confused. THe Antonovs being talked about are CARGO AIRCRAFT, specifically AN-124s, operated jointly by the Ukraine-based Antonov Airlines and a British outfit known as 'Air Foyle'. Just saw them on DC Wings. They moved the EWS locomotives from Ontario to the UK. They also operate the lone existing AN-225, which is the worlds most capable heavy lift craft.
-Hank
One is a three-unit self-propelled diesel railcar assembled in Germany, the other a five-unit electrically-propelled subway car built in Plattsburgh, NY.
I would assume that all the SNJLRTS cars will not be delivered by air.
-Hank
I would assume that all the SNJLRTS cars will not be delivered by air.
I concur. I suspect the remainder of the fleet will be delivered by freighter. This was the first set.
Check out new images for more R10s. Thanks Dave!
As well as the 70 new R38 scans. Looks like Dave is sitting on a bunch of other old subway pics. Hope to see more in the future.
Guys, they're all from Joe Testagrose. Don't think he reads here but thanks are due to him not me...
Please tell me when the Airtrain to the Subway will open?
Enclosed is the website to Airtrain:
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/index.html
Actually, just came back from JFK tonight. All the stations of AirTrain are lit up. The cars are on the track and are lit up as well; you can see them while on the Belt Parkway before you get to the exit ramp to JFK
here is the news letter page for Airtrain:
http://www.panynj.gov/airtrain/newsletterframe.htm
By the end of this year service from Howard Beach around JFK, 2003 service to Jamaica (exact month dunno)
NYD/ERA is having a two hour Inspection Tour on 28 Aug 2002 for $15.00. The NYD/ERA flyer states the line will start service at the end of September
I almost went to Garden State Plaza today but got a "bad vibe" and didn't go. And I'm glad I didn't. Some nasty storms hit here in the afternoon, around 3:30pm with driving rain and lightning. I heard on the radio that there were 90 minute delays on the inbound GW bridge, backing up route 4 for miles (the 171 must've been royally scrwed up), this due to various flooding in upper Manhattan. Also they said service on the 1 in upper Manhattan was suspended due to flooding. And with signal problems, LIRR was reporting delays of up to 1 hour (this is what happens when you put signal wire ABOVE ground). Also MNRR had delays as well.
Good thing about all of this is it means yet another heat wave is braking down. By Monday temps should be back in the 80s with sauna conditions out of the picture.
we got hit up here pretty bad too.Tree's down all over the place,power lines in the road[we dont have streets here]and power outages all around.. got sent home the other day because of a storm knocked the power out.I'm talking rain fallin [or blowin']SIDEWAYS....Really7 nasty stuff goin' on ....
It's been a hot and stormy summer. And as the polluting SUV's continue to roll, the greenhouse effect rolls on. I wonder where the "environmentalists" are when it comes to SUV's. They are driving them of course!
At this rate they say, in 50 years NYC may have to install dikes as sea levels rise. Maybe not even 50 years...
>>And as the polluting SUV's continue to roll, the greenhouse effect rolls on. I wonder where the "environmentalists" are when it comes to SUV's.<<
I remember the heat wave of the summer of 1966, where we exceeded 100 degrees for a couple of days or so. No talk of "global warming" back then. And the cars and buses polluted worse than today.
Your remark of blaming the SUV for the enviromental woes and hot weather is rediculous at best. I own a SUV, a mid sized one at that. It burns cleaner and probably has better gas mileage than and auto from 1966. As for my choice of owning a SUV, that's my freedom of choice. No enviromentalist wacko is going to tell me what to drive.
A few months ago, I saw a story about global warming on TV. They said that if we stopped driving our cars, trucks and buses, global warming would continue. Blame the hot weather on mother nature, not the SUV.
Bill "Newkirk"
I own a SUV, a mid sized one at that. It burns cleaner and probably has better gas mileage than any auto from 1966.
In terms of clean burning, it probably does. When I had my '65 inspected recently it passed emissions with flying colors, but that's because the standards are based on year of manufacture... even running unleaded, albeit with no catalyst (when the motor was rebuilt they installed hardened valve seats, so I don't need to use additives, but installing a catalyst would be difficult) it puts out a lot more emissions than an SUV like yours. Gas mileage is another story - it gets comparable gas mileage around town to my '96 Windstar (17-18 mpg) and 21 on the highway (vs. 24-25 with the Windstar).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
People buy SUVs for prestige not considering the additional weight and horsepower accomodation for transmission/transfer case inclusion. Most will never use the capabilities...most of my 21 years of field service was with front wheel drive and i could pass 4WD on the interstate in unpacked snow with all-season tires. i got my mother a new 97 jeep Cherokee for rural service to climb an unplowed winter driveway...i can make it up the hill with FWD IF my car doesn't bottom out. If I make it up the hill before heavy snow and park facing downhill, i can slide over the heavy snow to the road. Use the wheels like steering skees. The big misnomer is about ground clearance...undercar junk is a hangup. Every two inches of tire diameter may gain almost an inch of ground clearance BUT if your shock absorber hardware hangs down...you'll rip in mucky muck rocky strewn pathways. Exception is HUMVER...nothing hanging down and brake discs are on transmission/transfer case.
BTW: Best 4WD, smoothest and most reliable...AMC Eagle. had the last ... a 1989...silicon oil viscous lockups on four wheels. Problem with em was same as Concordes...nuisance oil leaks and Bronze press fit bushings in wheel housings. Mom needs new wheels...any opinion about the Jeep Liberty? CI Peter
Well, unless Mom needs 4WD, I'd stay away from it... on the other hand, if she does need to go four-wheelin', then it's one of the best, my personal preferences for Ford products notwithstanding. I've never owned a 4WD... never had the need for one... my snow vehicle is my '96 Windstar. Interestingly enough, my cousin Dave's wife drives through some nasty hill country back roads in upstate New York every day during the school year... lives in Carlisle, teaches in Canajoharie... prefers her '01 Windstar to Dave's '99 Explorer when the snow gets bad. And my cousin Dick's wife takes his '94 Taurus wagon when it snows... makes him drive from St. Johnsville to Utica in their '00 Chevy Venture so she can drive the kids to school in Canajoharie... the Venture is way too skittish. The long wheelbase Chevy has more space for big dog crates, otherwise they'd have a Windstar too... fits five crates with the seats removed, Windstar only holds four.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Juiceman,
I believe most people by SUVs for prestige and to be impressed. But there are some people like me who buys an SUV, more for utility and less for sport.
I own a 2001 Chevy S-10 Blazer, mid sized by description. And it suits me fine, don't need no Navigator or Escalade. I already carried a GE 14 cubic foot frost free refrigerator with the back tailgate and window closed ! People who are into prestige, wouldn't dream of doing that.
As for 4WD, last winter was too mild for any 4WD action. But several years ago, there was one winter when I had my first SUV, a 1992 S-10 Blazer. The snow out here was kinda deep, because the street wasn't plowed. I remember I went out for breakfast and I and other 4WD SUV's were the only vehicles on the road. Anything less would have been snowbound. So, I'm quite sold on a mid sized SUV and have no plans to go back to a regular sedan.
On the other side of the coin, I park my car at the station and take mass transit into the city. I rarely bring my SUV in the city with its traffic scarce parking. Why fight traffic in the city and go nuts looking for a space when I can ride a Redbird inspected at East 180th St !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Global warming is more related BELIEVE IT OR NOT to the methane released by cattle and termites (flatulance) -- on a global scale -- rather than by auto emissions. Scientists are trying to find new feed methods to limit the methane released by cattle...this is true.
Gases like methane and freon are major ozone deleptors. Carbon monoxide isn't good either, but it is less of a threat.
John should just take a chill pill.
I always thought it was Carbon dioxide that contributed mostly to the greenhouse effect, I guess I was wrong. If it's Methane we oughta be passing less gas! :-0
Darn! You're right, John! I got Ozone deleption MIXED with the Greenhouse Effect. The two are both atmospheric conditions, but have different causes.
Yes, you are right, the Greenhouse Effect is caused by the increase in Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere...however, auto-emissions aren't the major cause for the Greenhouse Effect. The destruction of the Rain Forests around the world are the major causes. Every year more and more rain forests are cleared for (1) cattle grazing and (2) the highly-prized woods found in those regions of the world. The rain forests are Earth's natural Oxygen producing system. Sadly, the greed of the few is causing the grief for many...
"however, auto-emissions aren't the major cause for the Greenhouse Effect. The destruction of the Rain Forests around the world are the major causes."
Yes, the destruction of forests is a major cause. But so is ALL burning of carbon and hydrocarbons, whether in cars, power plants, other industrial processes, etc.
>>>John should just take a chill pill.<<<
NOTICE that this problem was not addressed.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>Global warming is more related BELIEVE IT OR NOT to the methane released by cattle and termites (flatulance) -- on a global scale -- rather than by auto emissions.<<
Gee Doug, I can always count on you to come up with educational stuff like that. I guess that's why White Castle loves you !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah! Burp!!!
Hear that, SelkirkTMO? Stop mooing IMMEDIATELY!!!!
--Mark
HUH?
OMG these MOO jokes are getting worse...
AEMoo7
I think I'm done. But don't blame our beloved bovine for them trucks. :)
OINK
Global warming is more related BELIEVE IT OR NOT to the methane released by cattle and termites (flatulance)
Global warming, IF it is CAUSED by anything at all, has a number of contributing factors. Methane in terms of potency as a greenhouse gas is only three or four times that of Carbon Dioxide. Also contributing are small amounts of industrial organic chemicals (I don't remember what) that has greenhouse potency up to 500 times that of Carbon Dioxide, taken volume for volume. That is because they contain bonds that soak up UV and visible radiation much more effectively than the bonds in CO2 or CH3.
Also relevant is where the gases are released. For instance, an aeroplane pumping out CO2 in the stratosphere does much more harm than ground level CO2.
Also a factor is the fact that the ocean isn't absorbing as much CO2 as it used to -- we have no idea why, but it has to do with the changes in ocean biosystems, and geological movement that causes trapped CO2 to be released in large bubbles.
There are many theories out there. Still, the rate at which the average temperatures are rising cannot be explained by the combined effect of everything I just mentioned.
Gases like methane and freon are major ozone deleptors. Carbon monoxide isn't good either, but it is less of a threat.
Ozone depletion has little to do with the greenhouse effect, although some chemicals cause both.
AEM7
Lots of gasses are greenhouse gasses. Heck water vapor is one of the biggest greenhouse gasses, as are methane, carbon dioxide, and a whole mess of others. Basically any gas that can hold in heat from the sun or from us is considered a Greenhouse Gas to some extent. And yes, termites, cows, and other decomposing type animals create massive amounts of greenhouse gasses. The funny thing about water being a greenhouse gas is that we've all heard of Fuel Cell vehicles that all the greenies want us to drive. I really hope that somebody out there gets the word to them that these fuel cell vehicles will nearly be worse than what we're driving now, since they would need to exhaust water vapor, which will enter the atmosphere, and become a greenhouse gas. You may say that it will become part of the water cycle, but there still is a point at which a car is exhausting water vapor, and if you took all the cars in the country, it would be like a couple of lake michigans all evaporating water, the climactic porblems could be severe.
The ONLY element that we know depletes the atmosphere is Chlorine, which usually wouldn't be a problem, chlorine is highly reactive, it will bond to nearly anything with a lower electronegativity (only floride is more electronegative), and as such it normally would never even make it close to the Ozone layer. However, in the early fifties (IIRC), we developed this wonderful new chemical, Chloroflorocarbons, which bond Chlorine and Florine atoms to amounts of carbon, the result is a stable, yet, when provided with the right stimulus, highly reactive cleaner. We used it for every thing for a while, Aerosol cans, cause it was a pretty neutral gas, Cleaners, cause it had chlorine in it, which when liberated cleaned up a whole mess of stuff, plastics, cause it was stable and so on, and, ironically enough, Climactic and Atmospheric Tracking. Yes, we purposefully put CFCs in weather balloons and released them into the atmosphere. Cause we thought they were so incredibly stable, we could track where they went, and from that get a good picture of the winds on the edge of space. About this time, the lovely, stable molecules of CFC that we had been releasing at ground level like they were going out of style finally made in up to the upper atmosphere. And CFCs were a fundamentally stable product, able to survive fires, crushing, all kinds of deaths for chemical products, it's just to bad nobody ever thought to think what a thermonuclear explosion 98 million miles away would do to CFCs. The UV radiation from the Sun breaks down CFCs like nothing ever will, freeing the Chlorine to ravage all the Ozone up there. We actually get our Ozone layer from the sun, O2 at the upper reaches of space absorb tremendous amounts of energy in the form of UV radiation, all this energy causes them to bond to the nearest other two O2 molecules, the three of them join to become two 03 molecules. At ground level O3 is called Smog, or sometimes, more properly, Ozone, the smell you get after a shock, or after a lightening bolt, the same principle. Since O3 is denser than O2, it sinks, and thus leaves behind the energy of the UV radiation, which makes the O3 once again become O2 molecules.
Chlorine screwws all this up by making a witches brew of chorine compounds up there (I wish I could find the magazine I saw this in, but I've lost it), all of which trap oxygen atoms before they can become ozone molecules, or which de-bond the already together ozone molecules. Thus we end up with too little O2 left around to pick up the energy and block the UV radiation. Oh, and it happens over the south pole because that's where the gasses were deposited by the polar ciculation patterns.
That's just the way it is. I think
The UV radiation from the Sun breaks down CFCs like nothing ever will, freeing the Chlorine to ravage all the Ozone up there. We actually get our Ozone layer from the sun, O2 at the upper reaches of space absorb tremendous amounts of energy in the form of UV radiation...
If I remember right (it's been a long time since high school chemistry), the CFC actually acts as a catalyst and not as individual atoms or radicals. What happens is that a typical CFC (say CCl2F2) is floating around when it encounters an O3 molecule. The O3 is inherently unstable and finds itself in a favourable position by stealing a halogen from the CFC to become O2 and CCl2F2O.. the Carbon in the CFC feels really uncomfortable because it has too many electrons... so the next time it sees a O3 it attacks it and releases two O2 molecules... hey, don't qoute me on any of this, I need to look this up to get it right.
But the bottom line is that the CFC never gets destroyed, and stays there and catalyzes the reaction from 2* O3 to 3* O2... due to a peculiar property it has -- the intermediary mode (CCl2F2O) happens to have a bond energy somewhere between the third bond in O3 and the covalent bond in O2...
*confused* It's amazing how much stuff I had forgotten. Damn.
Chlorine screwws all this up by making a witches brew of chorine compounds up there (I wish I could find the magazine I saw this in, but I've lost it)...
Likely to be either NewScientist (http://www.newscientist.com/) or Scientific American.
Thanks, that sounds right, I had an Air and Space magazine from like '95, basically an environmentalist piece that they took some heat over, but it did describe in detail what happens. I'd say that that is what it describes, and yeah, CFCs (or CCl2F2) is a Catylist, that's what causes the problems, it never goes away, sorry for mixing it up.
Maybe the Mid-sized ones aint so bad. But the really popular ones, such as Ford Expedition, Lincoln Navigator, GMC Suburban, and Cadillac escalade are very wasteful, but people don't care.
They'll oppose stores, railroads and power plants but when it comes to their obligation to the environment, like cutting back on air pollution, they could care less. NIMBY's often wear environmentalist costumes.
>>Maybe the Mid-sized ones aint so bad. But the really popular ones, such as Ford Expedition, Lincoln Navigator, GMC Suburban, and Cadillac escalade are very wasteful, but people don't care.<<
For the record, I own and drive a 2001 Chevy S-10 Blazer. A couple of times I parked my SUV next to a Navigator, Expedition etc and even I was intimadated by the size difference.
"Bill Newkirk"
I like SUV's.
Global warming is a story cooked up by starving atmospheric scientists to win research funding.
AEM7
>>>>Your remark of blaming the SUV for the enviromental woes and hot weather is
rediculous at best. I own a SUV, a mid sized one at that. It burns cleaner and probably
has better gas mileage than and auto from 1966. As for my choice of owning a SUV,
that's my freedom of choice. No enviromentalist wacko is going to tell me what to
drive. <<
I don't know. I favor drastic reductions in the voulme of vehicles coming into Mahattan every day. I was walking in Soho and even on Saturday, the narrow streets were choked with honking cars. Bloomberg thinks smoking in bars and restaurants is ruining NYC air quality. Hey, Mike, get out of your limo and take a look around. NYC is choking on exhaust fumes. And don't get me started on the infernal noise that's produced when the guy in front of an impatient driver doesn't peel off like it's the Indy 500 when the light changes.
Autos belong in suburbia, not the city...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin W,
You probably didn't see my post in response to Onthejuice. As far as my mid sized SUV goes, it rarely sees the streets of Manhattan. I usually park at the LIRR station and take mass transit in.
I like to relax, read the paper or shut my eyes when commuting. Passing over the LIE overpass in Queens and seeing the LIE backed up on both sides reassures me that I'm not down there watching my blood pressure rise.
Bill "Newkirk"
As for my choice of owning a SUV, that's my freedom of choice.
There is no freedom of choice when it comes to driving a car. If you don't believe me, then use your "choice" argument at your local tank dealer. I'm sure there a lot of used Soviet tanks available for sale if you can't afford an M-1.
Why shouldn't people be allowed to drive tanks? It's their FREEDOM OF CHOICE!
They said that if we stopped driving our cars, trucks and buses, global warming would continue. Blame the hot weather on mother nature, not the SUV.
I don't have a problem with that (Anybody remember the ICE AGE? do you think the end of that was caused by cars and trucks?). My beef with SUVs is their heavier weight causing greater wear on the roads. SUVs should be considered trucks, pay truck tolls, be banned from parkways and the Brooklyn Bridge and get commercial plates.
The greater gas consumption doesn't harm the environment, it puts money in the pockets of the world's largest terrorist organization (OPEC) and their frequent Sheikdowns. OPEC members are the most useless countries in the world, and if it wasn't for their oil, they would be completely and utterly worthless.
Strangely, a recent report revealed that only 15% of our oil imports comes from the Saudi's, and steps are being taken to reduce that to zero.
As to Big, lumbering SUV's, cars have been used as status symbols since the turn of the last century. We do still have freedom of choice in the US of A, and nobody's forced to buy econo-boxes or SUV's by any government agency yet. I agree that big SUV's should have some sort of licenseing penalty. Not as a truck, since restrictions on trucks due to weight and neighborhood parking restrictions exist everywhere.
Using Maryland as an example, big SUV's do already pay higher registration fees due to weight. Maryland charges one rate for vehicles under 3700 GVW and a higher fee for vehicles over that. It is a significant increase. I pay $70 for two years on three cars, each under 3700 GVW. A big SUV owner pays $100. The owners can afford it, they did pony up the bucks to buy it.
Autos and SUV' have a big part of life because we stupidly destroyed our mass transit systems. I drive to BSM because the MTA bus system is so bad that a trip that takes 20 minutes by car takes 2 1/2 hours by bus. The rail that exists is not placed so I could use it.
Actually, that's changing once again. Ever since a certain (ahem) "leader" called the Russian Federation's Leader "pooty-poot" that alternate oil alliance has fallen apart and Russia is now kissing up to Saddam. The Saudis are back. With a price hike.
Down here, Mr. Honda's kept the home fires burning for several days now. If I had to depend on NoMo for my power, I might as well buy a hat from the Susquehanna Hat Company. :)
lol.....the trucks were out in full force at Colonie Plaza for 4 days in ROW,tring to keep up with all the power related problems....giant tree smashed my mother in laws fence,slightly damaging here pool...big deal.. she's got homeowners insurance...Route 5 flooded most of it route from Albany [right lanes out,road under Amtrak bridge blocked]some sewers couldnt handle it ..... been really busy around here,thats for sure.got home yesterday night,seen my clocks doing the ''now you see me ... now you don't'' routine.... an the AC KNOCKED OUT..[ALL SET TO TIMERS]...GEZZ...
Fortunately the US Govt intervened to stop some envirofreaks from interfering with a new cross sound power cable. It will now be in service providing LI with more electricity.
Their idea of blackouts aint so bad, let's just sit in the SUV and guzzle more gas. When my power went out TWICE this past week due to a circuit breaker in the transformer (on pole) down the street, I sat out on my doorstep Bronx style. :-0
Yeah, a DAY without storms and the commercial power's back on. Word is we'll all be losing it again tomorrow though as the "front" comes through. Let folks complain about diesels ... at least I had "hotel power" ... if it weren't for it sucking my 1000 gallon oil tank dry to crank watts for tots though, I'd love this. I think I actually saved some money being off the grid. :)
And I didn't get to have my Roast Pork today. Apparently a tree fell in Greenvale on Town Path Rd right in back of Szechuan. This one was a monster, and fell across the road and onto the lawn across the street. Took out the 3 phase and thus the commercial strip with Szechuan express, as well as nearby TX Maxx had no power.
And it picked a brutal day to fall. Wires down all over the place. The tree was said to be nearly 100 years old. The big saws even got stuck trying to chop it up. The LIPA guys said power won't be back until sunset, if they are lucky.
EVIL, EVIL MAN!
Gotta plan AHEAD, bro ... if it looks like it might get stormy, gotta get some takeout and keep it handy. When it's going to snow upstate, we all trudge out to the stores and fill up the pantry, expecting to be stuck in our homes for a few days, a week maybe. General Tso says, "plan a head" ... :)
Was on train 2058 when the big one hit as we approached Jamaica. Signals went down all over the place. Gueens interlocking had more trains than Hillside yard. Our 45 minute ride to Brentwood was 50 minutes late. And it was SRO too.....
Indian Railways has a "cow class" locomotive which doesn't have an airhorn. Instead it has a mooer which goes Mooooooooooooo when the engineer leans on the horn button. Usually it makes cows that occasionally walk onto the track run away. People also keep clear because they think they have to go worship (since cows are sacred in India).
AEM7
Geez, and here I thought you were talking to me. You think INDIA has a corner on the "cattle cars in transit" market? Moo, indeed. =0
You think INDIA has a corner on the "cattle cars in transit" market?
Actually, there is more truth in this than you might think. Indian Railway Shops built a bunch of "commuter cars" for the Formosan Railway Administration, and to this day they are still used for locals. Those cattle cars have two double doors (very British), bench seating like a subway car, and are used for like ten-hour runs across the country. Of course, you can ride the same distance in a limited-express in five hours, but it's 50% of the cost if you ride a cattle car. Cattle car are often used to transport students and military personnel.
For more information, see:
Commuter Train using Indian cattle cars.
Rural Service using Indian cattle cars.
List of services.
Official Websige (featuring no photos of cattle cars)
AEM7
AEM7
World War # One: single axle trucks...cars were called 8/40...eight horses or fourty men. Redbirds are more hospitable! All India Railways continues to use DC telegraphy and primitive telephony for trainset control. indian rail trainsets on TA service is the answer to lost Redbirds.
Well, naturally. Servicemen (and women) here use Greyhound (and Amtrak coach class) for the same reason: their pay is low, and they can't afford an air ticket home. Also,Greyhound at least has a published schedule. A military non-com can fly free on Military Airlift Command but it's on a stand-by basis; you can get bumped off the flight by anyone outranking you; and your flight from Atlanta to NYC could be by way of Cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Hartford, Boston and then Philly...
Well, naturally. Servicemen (and women) here use Greyhound (and Amtrak coach class) for the same reason: their pay is low, and they can't afford an air ticket home.
I'm shocked. And one expects these people to go out there and give up their life for you? I thought crappy living conditions for the military is limited to 3rd world countries. I was always under the impression that the British Army (& Navy etc) are paid really well (which they are) and I would assume the same is in the U.S.
AEM7
L/S (CCF R.N.)
Non-coms in the US military make lousy pay. But it doesn't impact them as much as it would me because they also get free housing in barracks, free health care in military clinics, and free food at the mess hall.
It impacts them when they have to buy a product or service not offered on the base.
>>> A military non-com can fly free on Military Airlift Command but it's on a stand-by basis; you can get bumped off the flight by anyone outranking you; <<<
Unless there has been a recent change, a serviceman flying on stand-by is not bumped by a higher rank. It is first come first served, but anyone on standby will be bumped for anyone traveling on official orders or compassionate leave. When I got out of initial training as a private, I flew from Washington, D.C., to Van Nuys, and from San Francisco (Travis AFB after a 3 day wait) to Fort Worth, and on to Akron on another plane. While in Europe, I flew from Germany to Madrid for a weekend then back to Germany, and flew from France to Cairo and Athens then back to Germany all on standby.
The way it works is that a serviceman checks in with flight operations at an Air Force base and tells them where he wants to go. They will tell him what flights they have scheduled toward that destination, or to a destination that might have flights to the place he wants to go. If there is no plane leaving soon, the serviceman checks into the transient quarters and checks back regularly (every 12 hours) with flight ops. Usually flight ops will call the transient quarters to notify those there of flights.
Tom
Thanks for that correction.
Of course, you're still trading your time, sometimes a lot of it, for a free flight. But that's fair.
FRA...Formosan Rail Administration...don't you mean R.O.C. as Formosa dissappeared at the end of WW2?
heh. Formosa actually disappeared in the early 19th century after the Dutch-Japanese War. I have a friend who came from Rhodesia, who lives in England now. He refuses to call his country of origin "Zimbabwe", well, because it isn't... he's from RHODESIA. In honour of my Dutch ancestors, I will continue to refer to Formosa as Formosa, regardless of what it's called now...
AEM7
Be a man amongst men...join the SELOUS SCOUTS and carry your R1 with pride. Nearly thiry years ago on a flight to Dayton, Ohio for the HamVention, the young man sitting besides me came from an estate and told me how 'Zimbabwe' was disarming citizens to obtain control. Formosa is not much different...there is an economic and racial difference between Formosans and Chinese of CKS forces. Dutch? Dutch East Indies??? Oil Fields? I know the history well. My disgust lies in how much money is wasted away in parties and dinners provided by these nations' missions and consulates. So much money...and not one dime to pay for parking tickets. CI Peter
Dutch? Dutch East Indies??? Oil Fields?
AEM7's Dutch Ancestry lies with a female on my dad's side of the family about four generations ago. Daughter of a Dutch officer stationed in Formosa, she took to having some fun with the locals... I'm not clear on the details but I believe she eventually married there and stayed even after the Dutch left -- she was all for the exotic island life and exotic men of the Pacific... I see similarities between this (then) young lady and myself :-) Of course, I went from the exotic Pacific to the mystic girls of the American Midwest :-)
AEM7
Too much BBC/Mobil Masterpiece Theater for you. Not everyone has such luck. CI peter
You do realize, I hope, that waxing nostalgic about the Selous Scouts isn't that far from waxing nostalgic about the KKK or the Hitler Youth. There are some who liked and personally profited from apartheid.
I hate what is going on in Zimbabwe right now, but let's be clear: Robert Mugabe has corrupted a process which would have had to happen anyway. Africans were enslaved by whites who truly believed in their racial superiority - an evil which afflicted both Rhodesia and South Africa.
It's too bad that a stronger, less corrupt leadership is available. It's also too bad that the British and the Dutch decided to exploit tribal divisions for their own profit and neglected to try to help heal the divisions once they had abandoned their colonies.
I hate what is going on in Zimbabwe right now,
Alright, I'll bite. Dr Ron, I need one of your history lessons... What is going on?
AEM7
The basic story is in all the newspapers (I think TIME magazine ran something too). Basically, Mugabe announced that several thousand white farmers, who together owned the majority of tillable farmland in Zimbabwe (ex-Rhodesia), would have to cough it up to black peasants. Considering that this land really was seized by whites and used to subjugate blacks through ownership of all exploitable resources (this includes mineral resources, not just farmland), reallocating it is certainly long overdue - but Mugabe is corrupt, and ruling party hacks, friends and his family are getting it, so the result will be no better -and, actually perhaps worse in the short run, because there are fears that the new owners won't be competent at farming. The white farmers did know what they were doing, and Zimbabwe, unlike other countries in Africa, had a productive agriculture. This agriculture's economic profits, however, were by and large directed only to those whites.
It is interesting that, even as individual incomes in Asia and Europe have climbed over the past fifty years, incomes have dropped in Africa. The causes are always controversial, but a I prefer a combination of drought, constant internecine warfare, government corruption and neglect by European powers. In short, a lot of people are to blame.
This is not new. When Europeans first showed up looking for slave labor, local tribal leaders willingly sold the slave traders people to ship overseas to work.
LMAO!!!!!!!!
Gotta get a moo horn!!!! just think of the havoc i could create inside my shop. CI peter
I'm sure there's a cow catcher joke waiting to be made, but I can't think of it
HOLY COW THANKYOUVEEERYMUCH!!! Pleeese do not step upon Krishnas Holy Representative upon the Earth. Ghee is the 'butter' we enjoy and you would not want to lose its source.
Do not misunderstand me...I have a great deal of respect for the faith of others...we all live under One Creator. Problem is when I hear of All India Railways accidents with four hundred dead...attributed to avoiding collision with a COW...this is NUTZ!
Can a 'Moo Horn' really clear my shop? CI Peter
OK, there's a real confusing G.O. going on this weekend on the F. According to the MTA website, Manhattan bound F's are running on the G from Bergen to Queens Plaza, but just states there is no Manhattan bound service between Bergen and 2nd ave. It also says you can get an F at Broadway Lafeyette. So several un-answered questions.
Does the F run local on Queens Blvd (the G is stopping at Court Square this weekend)? These F's are Broadway Laf, where are they coming from? I'm assuming some of these are F's coming out of 179 getting turned at Bway Lafeyette?
I will be going to Forest Hills and Rego Park tomorrow, so I'll see what's happening. I just hope there aint too much confusion.
Does the F run local on Queens Blvd (the G is stopping at Court Square this weekend)?
I not sure, but I think its possible! On the G Service G.O., its stated the NO Train running between Court Sq and Forest Hills, For Service to Queens stations, take the F running on the G during this time.
I assume that means that F will be making all local stops in QB with R.
Here's a stupid question. Can F trains run on the G line between Smith/9th and Queens Plaza. Aren't some of those stations too short? I guess this means they'll have to cut some F trains for the weekend.
I ask about station length along the G line because of a story told to me in School Car. A TSS told us that he was on a n/b F train that took a wrong route onto the G line. The T/O panicked and tried to back the train up. The TSS stopped him of course. Then they continued to the next station on the G line, and told the C/R to open the doors in the front section only, and to walk the passengers in the rear to the front cars that were in the station.
The station length of the G line can handle full 600 foot long trains.
the G train stations are just the same as the rest of them,its unfortuante that it only uses 4 car trains.
I think it's even more unfortunate that the MTA has implemented OPTO.
why... what difference does it make to you?
I ask about station length along the G line because of a story told to me in School Car. A TSS told us that he was on a n/b F train that took a wrong route onto the G line. The T/O panicked and tried to back the train up.
Maybe the TSS didn't know what he was doing. :)
All of those stations have 10 car markers, so if the T/O would have pulled all the way, he and the TSS would have seen it, and known the station was large enough for a 600' train.
If this is the same G.O. as last weekend, and I have somewhat figured it out.
Brooklyn Bound F Trains run in two different sections.
From 71st Continental to Coney Island via normal route (local) I believe via 63rd St.
From 179th St to 2nd Av via 63rd St Express.
For Jay St, York St, East Broadway, Delancey St, 2nd Ave, Bway Lafeyette, the C train will run via the F line.
Queens bound F trains:
From Coney Island, F diverts to Bergen St via the G line to Queens Plaza, continues onto Continental Av via Local.
F trains originating from 2nd Av will make local stops in Manhattan (last weekend, the Queensbound F ran via the V line, to get the 63rd tunnels, transfer for a 2av Manhattan bound F, doesn't specify this this weekend) and express stops in Queens.
There are two F services.
One 179-2nd ave on the QB express.
second CTL-Stl S/B local QB regular route from 21st on, N/B to CTL via the G local in Queens.
You guys got it. But next weekend, there's a different but similar one in store:
The two sections will be:
179 - Hoyt/Schermerhorn, Turning @ Lafayette Ave
Coney Island - Hoyt/Schermerhorn, Turning @ Bedford/Nostrand.
Sound Familiar?
Much better! It will be dicey on the Saturday headways and there will be more congestion south of Hoyt. Will they keep C and A service regular?
Also the changeover Friday evening ill be HORRIBLE. That GO alway seems to get off on a rocky foot. OTOH They should be able to do it with lots fewer crews although they need to invest in more platform people than they do on the weeekday GO.
I think A,C,G service will remain normal, depending on what other GO's they have going
The budget for this thing is getting soaked. They must be paying for 60-70 extra crews over the weekend plus extra switchman and TSS'. Every fourth C/R is working an RDO to add to the cost and there are two more weekends to go.
Plus the CTL-STL run does not seem to work and all these F's are tripping over each othe in Manhattan, it must be worse in the daytime when headways are tighter.
That's usually the overnight GO....the other one is probably more practical for daytime service.
With no V to turn at 2av, then yeah, much more practical, and you have a one seat ride in one direction on the F, which I for one appreciate.
There are two F trains. There is an F train ending at 2nd Avenue and returning to 71/Continental. The other F train from Brooklyn runs via the G line to 179. Returnign to Brooklyn is via normal F. Fro Broadway- Kafayette you can take either F train to Brooklyn. From Broadway Lafayette you have the S Gr and Street or 2nd Ave F. During the Day, you also have the C which runs on the F to Manhattan.
The work, according to Stations is a chip out at Bergen Street.
Why is this? Yesterday, I was going from 181 to TS to grab the 7 so when I reached 96th 9 a really ugly station, wouldn't you agree) I got off a 1 to transfer to a 3. It was like 10 minutes and nothing happened. When a 2 came, I went with the flow and took it. When we where like, 4 stops later I see a 1 on the express tracks with hardly anyone on it. What gives?
why would you get off a 1 to transfer to a 3? they both go to 42
I'd guess because the 3 is express
with a 2 minute difference heh... only change if you see that the train is pulling into the station. otherwise ul most likely lose time
You bring up an intersting point that has been touched on here from time to time. People have a great affinity for expresses, yet the time saved is usually minimal at best. Even as someone who has much interst in the NYC subway (and as a result has greater knowledge of the operations than the average subway user who only see it as a way to get from point A to point B), I find myself getting off locals to catch an express. I do this despite knowing that unless the express is in the station, chances are that the local I am on will get where I'm going at least as quickly as the express that I will stand on the very hot and uncomfortable platform to wait for. Someone mentioned in one thread that the thing about expresses is not the time savings as much as the perception that you are saving station stops. After reading that post, I thought about it and found the concept to be true in my case. If I am going from uptown on the #1 to 14th Street (a trip I make several times a week), I know that unless the downtown express #3 is at the platform at 96th street (or approaching the station), the #1 I am on, will get to 14th street no more than 3 to 5 minutes later than the express; if the express beats the local at all. Yet my thought process is, "The express skips EIGHT stations", and as often as not, I get off the local even if I cannot see the express. And as David Greenberger has pointed out, the few minute wait on the hot platform is much more uncomfortable than any extra time you may spend sitting in the "slow", air conditioned local. Any logical review of the express vs local (or more to the point, should I transfer to the express from the local) question, or the why do people often choose the express over the local question; must come down to the belief that they are "saving" stations. The time saved really is minimal if any at all. The best illustration is the CPW run on the A/C and B/D, the longest express run in the system. I do not have exact time figures for the express vs the local, but I believe I have seen those figures here on this board and the difference is no more than 5 - 7 minutes. So, if you have to wait even 5 minutes for the express, you have saved no time. These examples do not even consider the strange way express are handled by the dispatchers at time. Often I have been on expresses that are held at stations to wait for the local the express passed on the way. On the 3 train, it is not uncommon for the downtown express to be held at 34th Street for several minutes while 2 or 3 locals pull in, load and leave. I would assume the problem at 34th is due to the make-shift terminal at 14 th Street, but I have often seen expresses held at stations for reasons I cannot comprehend.
I think the true value of expresses is the capacity they provide to the system. While it is true that the express does not save much time, having the 4 tracks versus only 2 (or three) allow at least twice as many trains to operate over the same territory. I believe that there is where expresses prove their worth.
Yeah, that's what I mean. Besides, no one here dictates to me what I take in the subway.
thats why i hate it when people get off a local to catch the express or i see them waiting for it when the local im on comes and they pay no attention to it. its as you say,i think they think that its because they skip a certain number of stations thats why they take it,but i know still many others think they'll save time and feel stupid when they get there and the local they were on is no longer around because it got to where they were going before the express got there.the CPW run only saves 4mins.it takes the A and D 7 mintues to run from 59 St-125 St while it takes the B and C 11mins to cover the same stretch.So i dont know why people make a big deal about the express because its there for really,no reason at all.
I tend to stay on a local if I have a seat and/or the temperature is comfortable.
One reason I will switch to an express is if the local is really crowded and I'm standing. That means that at every stop there is jockeying for position. Since I'm almost always traveling within Manhattan, I will also have to get off before the train empties out, so if I let myself be moved toward the middle of the car I will have real trouble getting off.
So, I'll switch to an equally crowded express just to avoid much of that jostling and jockeying, since the express tops less often.
Your point is well taken. From my experiences in the subway at an express and local stop, the local will pull in first. One experience was when I was waiting at 34/7th to go to 42nd. At least three locals came before the express and I was on the express platform. So I go over to the local and surprise, the #3 pulls in, with a #2 behind it. I stayed where I was and got on the local.
During the glory days of the F running express to 179, I mastered the trick of getting off at Parsons to take the R IF the R was already in the station. The F usually got held up by homeballs outside of 169 while the R went into 179 with no delays.
Sometimes a 1 will be rerouted. I rode on a 1 running express once. It was no different from being on a 2 or 3 except it switched over before Chambers St. and went to South Ferry.
A few questions about the future of train movements. When & If they fully implement CBTC into the system will they still need the Master Towers? And second are the Master Towers manned 24/7? Or do they put them in automatic mode certain times of the day?
Currently the Master Towers are all 24/7.
With CBTC and the new West Side Command Center, the "Local Master" Towers will become rush hour jobs.
Or so goes the plan.
CBTC does not have any mechanism for controlling switches.
True, but currently in the CBTC spec are remote controlled interlockings; so one parallel-benefit would be the remoting of towers.
Check out this Re-Created Amtrak Equipment:
Very nice.
How are the inspections going? When do you think your Acela trainset will be back in service...........
Why is it called the Atlantic Coastal Railway?
AEM7
That't the name of their website.
PRIVATIZERS BE DAMNED!!!
It's sort of a club of Microsoft Train Simulator enthusiasts. They created their own roadname and have applied it to all the default and non-default equipment of MSTS.
They're at http://www.atlanticrail.com/
It's kinda crappy, they only run service between Philly and Washington, and I hate their paint scheme. I thought the virtual ATC thing for airlines is sad, but this is worse...
AEM7
Could YOU do what they did? If not, then you shouldn't criticize.
They are using the default Northeast Corridor route that is available in Microsoft Train Simulator. Others are working at creating the rest of the route -- and believe me, until you have tried to work with the MSTS Route Editors to create or modify a route for the simulator, you have NO idea how much work, aggravation, etc. goes into it.
you have NO idea how much work, aggravation, etc. goes into it.
That's precisely why it's sad. Work in your free time for a railroad? Union Pacific could use all your help, and they will even pay you for it.
AEM7
Hehehe, I wouldn't go to work for a railroad if they paid me triple what they are paying.
I enjoy having regular work hours, regular days off, seeing my wife and family, and not having to have the phone wire wrapped around my neck no matter where I go.
Read the article in the current Trains magazine.....the one written by a former railroad crewman. "Second best day of my life was when I hired out on the railroad." "BEST day was when I QUIT working for the railroad."
Railroad work is NOT the grand and glorious thing we railroad enthusiasts see from trackside or while riding a train. They don't call it "WORK" for nothing.
Amen ... working the TA wasn't so bad, the shift bit the bag but it was regular and only occasionally subject to "can you do an extra trip?" from the TMO. HOWEVER, since I moved upstate into a community of railroaders, the stories Tuch tells in his "High Iron" pieces only scratch the surface of how bad it can be.
It's a GOOD check for those who may not have the education necessary to rip off investors for a living (as Uncle Ed put it and he's right) but you might as well bring along a picture of your railroad widow just so you remember what she looks like these days. Long haul truckers have more of a home life than most railroaders. And the rail companies are trying to take even MORE out of their hides.
BLE and UTU ain't what they used to be ...
Just a clarification lest I unintentionally put words in Unca Ed's mouth - his concept was it's a good living if you're not educated, the "ripping off investors" was my own addition. Lemme put it THIS way, it's an HONEST living even if it's not the kind of life many want to live with. Most of the hard core railroaders I know got into it because they grew up "foamy" ... it's probably the only thing that still keeps many of them in it even if railroad management doesn't want to know that they hired foamers and "don't ask don't tell" with respect to the foaminess is a way of life. :)
HOWEVER, since I moved upstate into a community of railroaders, the stories Tuch tells in his "High Iron" pieces only scratch the surface of how bad it can be.
I don't know if I agree with both of you. Railroading is what that guy in TRAINS claim it is; it is a way of life. But it isn't as bad as he makes it out to be. The reason he didn't last was because (a) he hired out at the wrong time, being at the bottom of the pile, and (b) he's not a railroader -- it takes a certain kind of personality, and he doesn't have what it takes.
If you want to get hired by a railroad, now is the time to do it (or next year), because we're at the bottom of the economic cycle, and as soon as the traffic pick up in 2004 and 2005, they will be hiring like mad and you will have lots of seniority very quickly. When the next economic cycle hits, enough people will have retired for you not to be furloughed.
The guy in TRAINS also took railroad work too seriously. He also didn't have the attitude. He was a "sucker", so of course all the old hands made him do all the work. If you look at Tuch's pieces, you will see that he does his work properly but he also gives people the stick when other people gets in the way of his work, including CSX dispatchers, police officers, and even the occasional army official. He has what it takes: he sticks things in peoples faces and tell them to go f**k themselves.
Of course, the guy in TRAINS also have a wife problem. His wife was a whiner. Tuch's wife doesn't seem to complain that much (or at least if she does, he hadn't made it clear). In all honesty, I don't see how the life of a railroader is all that different from a suburban office worker. If you worked at some management position in an office, in the U.S. you will end up doing unpaid overtime, and there will be meetings and business trips, so you don't really get to spend any time with your wife except at the weekends anyway. If you were a railroader, you can have Wednesday off ALL DAY if you marked off and takes no phone calls. Of course, you don't get paid if you mark off, and if you do it too much the managers get pissed, but you don't think that happens in the office?
I don't ever intend on becoming a railroader, although I think I could probably live that kind of life. I don't particularly want to -- my social life is too important to me, and even though I enjoy the solitude, I can't bear being away from Melissa. With her going to school in Ohio and me in Massachusetts is bad enough, I don't intend to subject us to any more of that than necessary. That said, I'll go become a railroader if for whatever reason Lissie and I don't wind up together... there's no one like her, so if she's gone, I may as well run a locomotive: because there would be no one at home worth seeing anyway.
AEM7
Hate to burst your bubble, but I know two people who started work for the railroads in the 1970's....and they have EXACTLY the same gripes the guy in Trains Magazine wrote. EXACTLY. They both said they couldn't agree more once they saw the article.
They both went through divorces because they were never home...they'd get called for an LA-Indo run (they worked for SP) and then they'd get stuck for a week doing Indo-Yuma, and NEVER see home the whole time. Or they'd get an LA-Palmdale run, then they'd get stuck between Palmdale and Bakersfield for a week. As soon as they were off duty six and a half hours, the phone would ring, giving them 90 minutes to get to work...OR ELSE!! That "OR ELSE? Miss the call, you miss work, and miss the $$$ at paycheck time. And you piss off the management really big time. You don't have to worry about that itn an office type job -- because you KNOW when you will work, you know when you will finish work, and you know you have regular time off to relax and share time with family, etc.
You try to equate railroading with working in an office. It is NOWHERE near the same. Oh yeah, sure, you can mark off Wednesdays (to use your example) and not get paid, and piss off the managers. But in an office you have REGULARLY SCHEDULED HOURS AND DAYS OF WORK....which means REGULARLY SCHEDULED HOURS AND DAYS OFF. It's really nice to be able to PLAN your life, something you give up when you hire out on a railroad.
Hate to burst your bubble, but I know two people who started work for the railroads in the 1970's....and they have EXACTLY the same gripes the guy in Trains Magazine wrote.
You ain't bursting anybody's bubble, because (a) you're just plain wrong, and (b) I don't particularly want to hire out as an engineer or conductor. I guess there are more "suckers" out there who couldn't take it than I first thought...
They both went through divorces because they were never home...they'd get called for an LA-Indo run (they worked for SP) and then they'd get stuck for a week doing Indo-Yuma, and NEVER see home the whole time.
Were these guys you knew on the extra board? That's what you get for putting your name on the extra board. These guys couldn't hold a job? Not got enough seniority. Why? Hired out at the wrong time. In most crew districts the kind of thing you describe rarely happens, because the engineers and conductors simply aren't qualified far enough for them to be called out doing runs out of a "foreign" crewbase. I knew a few guys who worked for Conrail out of Cleveland and Toledo. They were all qualified as far as Selkirk and Chicago, and I never hear any stories about getting stuck out on the "other end". These guys haven't even got much seniority, one just started work five years ago. But then, that's probably because Conrail is Conrail. Looks like both the management and the unions were ineffective at SP.
...OR ELSE!! That "OR ELSE? Miss the call, you miss work, and miss the $$$ at paycheck time.
These people didn't have the guts to go ELSE, then that's their problem. The way the rail industry is, they have a shortage of engineers. The management dare not fire anybody.
You don't have to worry about that itn an office type job -- because you KNOW when you will work, you know when you will finish work...
Have you ever worked an office job? The office job follows you. Maybe this was because I worked in a railroad office, but I've heard enough gripe from people who work in pretty senior management positions. The pager goes off, they're there. Look at SUBWAYSURF's post earlier about getting called on vacation just because he's the project manager. Speed restrictions due to heat? Suddenly the planning office is buzzing with activity as we try to work out crew and vehicle diagrams for the next week because trains have wound up in the wrong locations at the end of today as services are cancelled due to delays. CEOs at major companies often work ten hour days. Think you know office work?
You try to equate railroading with working in an office. It is NOWHERE near the same.
It's the same. It's work. You manage your work, then you don't get screwed. You say "no" when you don't feel like working. You get fired and you go elsewhere. If you're one sucker who never says no, whatever job you do you will wind up in a bad situation. The other guys will make use of you, management included.
But in an office you have REGULARLY SCHEDULED HOURS AND DAYS OF WORK
I currently work flexi-time, which is the new trend these days. It works both ways: I can sleep in today, but next Saturday when I'm called out because a project has overrun and the meeting is on Monday, I'm there. If you think office work is regular hours work, then you're either living in the dream world, living back in the 1980s, or you're working a job that no one cares about -- obviously, you're not important enough for them to call you in a crisis situation...
AEM7
Gonerail was not at *ALL* typical of the other railroads. Gonerail realized early in the game that keeping their employees reasonably happy and comfortable (especially in comparison to other roads) made GOOD business sense. They were less likely to "rulebook" a train to death, or fall asleep from overwork and run it into a ditch and KNEW where they needed to slow down, where they needed to get up a bit more speed than the signals indicated to get over a hump and all the nuanecs of running trains ON TIME.
Conrail took care of their people, their people took care of Conrail's customers, and since everybody knew each other, they took care of each OTHER too. WONDERFUL railroad. Then came Nof*ck-Sudden, the horse manure of transportation and the circus clowns from CSX. Now the former Gonerail's no different from the others. But I believe the complainers, Gonerail's like that too now.
Look at SUBWAYSURF's post earlier about getting called on vacation just because he's the project manager.
Actually, that was my post... not that it really matters, but just to let you know I do read some of what you say :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Vacation? Who HE? :)
A. No, I am not just "plain wrong" as you allege. I am stating exactly what I saw two friends go through. I, myself, also worked for a VERY short time for a railroad, and because seniority was moving slower than snail shit, I couldn't get anything but crap.
B. The railroad involved was the Southern Pacific...which was VERY good at making sure when you hire out on a division, you qualify on the ENTIRE division. And then they were also very good at keeping you at the opposite end in another subdivision. The Los Angeles Division covered from San Luis Obispo and Bakersfield to the north, and all the way to Yuma, Arizona to the south/east. About 500 miles of territory. Also, there was NO such thing as a "regular job" other than the fact that you were working for SP. All the little branch line locals around the LA basin were held by guys with 20-25 years or more seniority. They were all older than dust. A new hire didn't stand a chance of hiring on and getting a regular run at all. Of course when *I* hired on (1970) I was told, "Oh, you can have a regular job within a year..." Yeah, right.
C. One of the guys did have the GUTS to sign off all the time. He was the one that management followed around every time he was on the property and he got written up for every little thing.
D. Worked an office job? Yep, for quite a few years. I am one that can leave the job at the office when it's time to go home. And I left my home at home when I was at the office. I was in management in another facet of the transportation industry at the time. I did not like being confined to an office...so I hired on with a transit agency in their operations end.
As far as not wanting to do something at a job and saying "No", there are plenty of ways to go about it and KEEP the job. And I HAVE done so. All too many people don't want to work, they tell their superiors off, and wonder why their superiors showed them the door. Usually they are the ones that had the attitude that the job owed them something. Too many of them in every job known to man.
Twenty years ago, I might have done it. Now I work within 100 feet of my home, and all my travelling is by wire or with the company CEO (the missus) ... wouldn't trade this for all the Arnines in the sea. :)
Wow, just when I thought Acela was bad enough, a new paint job comes along to prove me wrong. How long would that nice white paint stay White? How come all the Genesis is is an Amtrak P42 with the red painted over? The only one that shows a bit of thought are the Acela and HHP-8, and then probably only because those are the only driveable engines that come with the game.
Looks to me like more MicroSuck Trailer-trash Simulation garbage.
How come all the Genesis is is an Amtrak P42 with the red painted over?
Actually, that is realistic. If you privatize a system, the new owners will spend a lot of money stamping their identity everywhere, rippnig out everything old, usually beginning with the new equipment. So the Acela gets repainted first with a totally different and impractical paint scheme, then the HHP-8's as the new owners realize the white scheme isn't holding up, and by the time they get ronud to the P-42's they are nearly bankrupt so just did a cover up job with minimal amonut of money, and E-60's never get the new paint as Amtrak is renationalized.
To hell with the privatizers.
AEM7
"To hell with the privatizers."
Communism for all!
If our lawgivers don't get a grip on the corporate crooks and the tax dodgers soon, I suspect Marxism will be BACK ... even if it's of the Harpo variety. :)
If "welfare" is so bad, why are corporations collecting it?
Look at the pictures of the Acela, there are clearly windows running down the side of the power car. Now acela doesn't have this, but what does? Oh yeah, the ICE3! I think somehow somebody, whether they knew it or not, is trying to tell us something.
Siemens!
I was wondering with the Plans to have the B division all CBTC by 2020 when they were doing the 63 Street Extension was CBTC thought of being pre-implemented when building because it will make it easier when they do the Queens Boulevard Line CBTC upgrading.
No.
Robert
Right, the pilot project is only now being installed.
This board is amazing. If you start a thread based on either fact of fiction, and say something random, invariably after a few posts the subject turns back onto transit. Witness the recent Moo thread. I am grateful to Dave for not deleting it, after all, it did turn back into a transit-related thread :)
AEM7
It is Transit......Moo...Moo...get off the tracks...call to prayer. I work really hard on the job and try to do my best with what and who I have to work with...heat prostration approaching congestive heart failure is a tough call when i find others relaxing in the cars. Unca SelkirkTMO amuses me with his practical and applicable humor and i need a little laugh when i get home. Gott a get the National Geographic videos on indian Railway for a big laugh. The thread was never off topic and just got TA stronger by post. So we have five Indian dialects on site...guys speak distorted broken English...listen to them as they communicate in their own dialects and wonder how they understand eachother. half the crew is represented by thew 'Indian Saints: John, George, Matthew and Thomas.' We work as a team and this is my new work, my home. i love my work. CI Peter
...got on at second av last night a little after 12, heading to queens. An F was on the 'express track' waiting to go to queens, and a second F pulled in on the brooklyn side 'express' track seeming ready to turn back to queens - but in the meantime, a third came in right behind it, heading to brooklyn. as we pulled int bway layfette, there was still another heading towards 2nd av, and yet another at west 4th...when i got out to queens and went up and over to get a train back to steinway, an F came in express, then one local, which i took... again, on the way, we passed an F going local towards 179... it didn't even seem like anything else was running...
i realize it probably had a lot to do with that g.o., but god damn... that's a lot of f trains for the middle of the night!
Help me out here a moment. What does G.O. mean?
G_eneral
O_rder
you would put one in effect, and notify all affected personnel, if, say, you were going to do some major track work between Bergen and Jay, like chipping out the concrete roadbed.
Gotcha. Thanks
...Never one when you need one, and then...
>>> Never one when you need one, and then... <<<
You are not suggesting that all those F trains were in a diner eating doughnuts are you? :-)
Tom
No, they were eating Frankfurters. The D trains were eating Donuts, and the W was at the next table having a Waffle with syrup.
:0)
....hmmmmmm......waffle house ??............!
saw a million of those in atlanta!
Yeah, I'm sure you did. 20 Years ago!
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, that's worth a rim shot.
So that would mean A trains were eating artichokes.
B trains were having burritos and beans at Concourse Yard;
C trains were having cheese fries;
E trains were eating enchiladas.
J trains were muncing jalapeños.
S trains were at Subway having BMT sandwiches.
Too bad the Q wasn't running. On second thought, they were partying at CIY and eating QUICHE!!!
I would be grateful for all those F trains. Try riding the A train late at night in Brooklyn or late night winters in the Rockaways.
oh i'm not complaining at all, just a little startled. it litterly seemed like there was no other queens blvd. service than the 2 Fs (lcoal and express)
Sounds like they should've been an F and an FF. How IND.
The FF is the only original IND route designation never to be used.
Probably you saw the whole night's worth of F trains. Anyone who missed that bunch probably had a long wait for the next one. I never have understood why in a late night GO they can't send the trains at nice regular 20 minute intervals rather than causing them to bunch up.
Any R-32's? I waited nearly two hours at 18th Avenue before finally giving up. There didn't seem to be a single R-32 consist on the Coney Island segment of the F today.
In several threads I always see several subtalkers advocating higher tolls - well I finally found a reason to agree IF THIS SERVICE were included!!!
No WAY
Used to be if you were driving into Manhattan, you could stop and get a massage in a number of places. But Rudy drove them out. :)
From the article:
>>> Motorway operating company Escota said the massages were being laid on this weekend along with sporting and other recreational activities at a rest stop on the A51 motorway just north of Aix-on-Provence. <<<
We have to guess what the "sporting and other recreational activities" were.
Tom
The Verrazano's long enough, you could take on a masseuse and relief driver as you leave the Belt, drop them off five minutes later at the SI plaza.
If they narrow the lower deck to one lane (for bridge painting?) as was the case Wednesday, you get more on-span therapy time.
This gives new depth of meaning to "E-Zpass".
every now and again i've noticed a loud buzzer sound coming from some signals - what the hell does it mean?
sometimes it's a constant buzz, but other times it's just an occasional buzz that lasts a few seconds... i could see perhaps the ones that keep buzzing perhaps being in need of repair, but the occasional couple-of-seconds long buzzes? wht's that all about?
(mostly i noticed the long constant buzzers on the N elevated in queens - they're loud too, so i can't imagine what it must be like to live near it when it's going off...
(y i'm sure plenty of folks will be able to make all kinds of drinking and drug jokes - but i'm serious - what the hell is up with the buzz!?)
(y i'm sure plenty of folks will be able to make all kinds of drinking and drug jokes - but i'm serious - what the hell is up with the buzz!?)
LOL...hey, I was already thinking that with your F train post...:)
oi gevault. ...it just had to be the 'F' train, didn't it... !
Groan. Eeewwwwww!!
Seems as though there was a famous rock opera with:
What's the buzz? Tell me what's a-happenin', etc., etc.
Could be the light on the signal. Lightbulbs sometimes buzz after longtime use. Floro lights are like that.
this is a loud buzz, if i recall right the signals that do it have a little silver speaker box on top of them. it's one hell of a loud little speaker...
>>> if i recall right the signals that do it have a little silver speaker box on top of them. <<<
An ADA requirement for blind T/Os? :-)
Tom
Flourescent lights do that. Not sure why. Somebody who knows lighting technology can feel free to post it here...
Its not the light its a bad ballast.
Aha! Thank you.
There are no ballasts in signals as far as i know. Most signals use incadescent lighting. In some areas, there is a buzzer attached to a signal. It's used to call signal maintainers in case of a problem.
Isnt ballast on the track?
HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH
yeah but we use "Buzz-Free" ballast on the tracks.
UGH, 2/3rds of a PUN
Wasn't it NYC Transit buses that are equipped with "Buzz off"?
--Mark
,,,now that's the answer i was looking for... danke shun.
Could be a few things. You say there is a speaker next to
these buzzing signals? That sounds like one of the many
styles of route-request telephone and it may be malfunctioning.
It could be a maintainer's call buzzer, though I haven't heard
those being used in modern times. Could be a humming lighting
transformer. Although the signals use incadescent bulbs, some
are wired with step up or step down transformers inside the head.
The BUZZ is in peoples heads! Lighting in trainsets since the last refab of Redbirds uses a 37.5 VDC inverter to drive flurouscent ballasts/tubes and is filtered. Any buzz in the car is a result of an electrical short or leakage. Trackline signals remain mostly DC because battery backup is DC...some zones have AC transformer power. Any 'buzz' is the result of worn/carbonised electrical contacts. If the buzz is really loud..check the bottles ingredients. 'Propulsky' is a solvent used to clean motor brushes and not fit for human consumption. CI Peter
Perhaps someone has already posted on this subject. If so, I apologize in advance.
After being thwarted last weekend in my railfanning attempts on the West Side IRT, our train turned at 215, I took the car on up to Van Cortland Park on the way to run an errand in Westchester, with the intention of trying to see what was causing such a massive GO.
I was surprised to see a construction train pulled into the Eastern track at 242nd Street station. Whatever work was going on, it looked very involved. There were at least two crains down on the street involved in the effort.
Does anyone know what kind of work is being done? It looks intense.
Sadly, I only had a brief moment to look, before traffic whisked me on,
MATT-2AV
Replacement of track and switches outside of the terminal.
OK, this one probably won't be quite as big a mystery to you all...
This is a NYC car of some sort that I photographed on 30 June at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis. I neglected to write down the information about the car, however, and their website doesn't have a complete roster or a contact email. Can anyone provide a more detailed ID?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's BU #1365 convertible, one of those last used on the Myrtle L.
I hope it's in better shape than the picture suggests...
Unfortunately, it's not... a lot of what is at St. Louis is in pretty sad shape. Due to tight clearances in the shed I couldn't get a photo, even with my 20mm lens, of the GG-1 (and my shot of P-5 4700 had terrible lighting so it didn't come out anywhere close to good enough to scan), but it's a shame to see such magnificent machines being neglected so badly. The GG-1 has a rust hole in its side big enough to put your head through. Some of the equipment looks superb, however; I've got a photo of Philadelphia PCC 2740 that I haven't uploaded yet, and that one is in really nice shape... ditto for car 10 (what city I don't remember... I'll scan that one in a few minutes and ask if anyone can ID the line) and the Milwaukee Road bipolar. Overall I was rather disappointed in the museum... I had the impression they were much better funded, being a public entity, but apparently they have gotten very little money from the county or state during the past few years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
its a 1300 convertible
OK, here's another one from the museum in St. Louis... NYC 113 is described on their website as a "bi-polar" from 1906... all I really know is that is was used on trains into Grand Central. What was the proper model designation and what else should I know about it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is an S motor (or a T motor from 1906 to like 1911). This was the original set of GCT electric locomotives. They were 1-D-1 later configured to 2-D-2 after some derailments in 1907. For most of their lives they were numbered in the 3400 series before being knocked down into the 3200 series, the 1100 series and finally 100 series in the 1960's and into the Penn Central days. In their later years the S motors were assigned to Mott Haven-GCT coaching stock runs, GCT switching and short commuter runs with the T and P motors taking over the actual passenger train work. Many S motors survived uo into the 1970's before the decline in long distance passenger trains and the arrival of the new M-1 and M-2 MU cars allowed the FL-9's to take over all of the long haul stuff on both the former Nh and former NYC lines.
#113 was part of a 32 unit S-2 class built in 1906 for the terminal electrification, the prototype S-1 being built in 1904. They were followed by 2 class S-2A and 12 class S-3. The S-2 was built by Alco and GE and has 2200 hp given by 4 gearless bi-polar motors that allowed speeds of 60mph.
Wow, how do you know this stuff? I looked at that foto and I thought it was one of the draggers used on the NYC Cleveland electrification to CUT.
AEM7
The CIT electrics were the "P-2" class and were numbered in the 220's up to about 250 or so. They were a LOT longer and had platforms at the ends.
Thanks... I knew the construction date and of course I remember the little beasties from my younger days but never knew the classification.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Number "100" is parked HERE by the way, just outside the "Albany Steam Plant" off River Road in Glenmont (town of Bethlehem) about 6 miles south of Albany.
That is one of the 10 most famous electric locomoives in the world. It probably has a plaque declaring it a National Machanical Engineering Landmark. Is old #100 (6000) in some sort of enclosure or are they just letting it rust away?
Sadly, it's out in the acid rain. The Mohawk and Hudson chapter of the NRHS doesn't have much in the way of cash, but they have 100, a T3A and a good number of D&H coaches in their final blue, yellow and silver paintjob, all rotting away close to the Hudson at the Albany Steam Power plant. Because they're on the power plant's property though, you can't go near them as a result of "Homeland Security."
M&H NRHS site is here:
http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/his_pres.htm
THIS TOPIC WAS TAKEN FROM PHL.TRANSPORTATION....BUT I WANTED TO HEAR MORE ON IT. THE POSTER WAS WONDERING ABOUT THE CHANCE OF SERVICE ON MARC BEING EXTENDED TO NEWARK OR EVEN SEPTA EXTENDED TO PERRYVILLE, MD TO FINALLY MAKE A DC TO PHILLY COMMUTER RAIL CONNEX. ANYONE WITH ANY INSIGHT ON THIS.....DO YOU THINK DELDOT WOULD REALLY BE WILLING TO MAKE THE INVESTMENT BETWEEN TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN?
IT WOULD BE COOL TO HAVE A COMMUTER RAIL OPTION FROM DC TO NY....ACTUALLY IF IT WAS COMPLETE....YOU COULD EVEN COME FROM VA AND GO ALL THE WAY TO CONN. (VIA METRO-NORTH AND VRE)....
THE POSTER WAS WONDERING ABOUT THE CHANCE OF SERVICE ON MARC BEING EXTENDED TO NEWARK OR EVEN SEPTA EXTENDED TO PERRYVILLE, MD TO FINALLY MAKE A DC TO PHILLY COMMUTER RAIL CONNEX.
WHY BOTHER. WHO LIVES BETWEEN NEWARK AND PERRYVILLE. NO ONE EVEN GOES TO NEWARK. THE COMMUTER RAIL SERVICE COULD BE CUT BACK TO WILMINGTON. THERE HAD BEEN SERVICE CUTS RECENTLY.
ANYONE WITH ANY INSIGHT ON THIS.....DO YOU THINK DELDOT WOULD REALLY BE WILLING TO MAKE THE INVESTMENT BETWEEN TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN?
DELAWARE HAS A POPULATION OF AROUND 900,000. THAT IS LESS THAN THE POPULATION IN THE PROVIDENCE, RI METRO AREA. COMMUTER RAIL IN DELAWARE MAKES AS MUCH SENSE AS COMMUTER RAIL AROUND TOLDEO, OHIO.
IT WOULD BE COOL TO HAVE A COMMUTER RAIL OPTION FROM DC TO NY....ACTUALLY IF IT WAS COMPLETE....YOU COULD EVEN COME FROM VA AND GO ALL THE WAY TO CONN. (VIA METRO-NORTH AND VRE)....
WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT? COMMUTER RAIL IS COMMUTER RAIL. IT IS SUPPOSED TO TAKE PEOPLE FROM HOME TO WORK. IF ALL YOU GET IS A BUS LOAD OF PEOPLE, THEN RUN A COMMUTER BUS. NO NEED TO GO TO RAIL JUST BECAUSE THE TRACK IS THERE.
A NORTHEAST PASSENGER AUTHORITY IS THE ANSWER, BUT I HAVE NOT SEEN A CREDIBLE PROPOSAL YET.
aem7
I GET YOUR POINT....BUT WOULDNT THERE BE A GOOD AMOUNT MADE FROM THE THROUGH-STATE TRAVELERS? IM' SURE THAT SEPTA AND NJT MAKE MUCH MORE OFF THEIR LINES, ESPECIALLY DURING OFF PEAK AND WEEKEND HOURS BECAUSE OF THEIR CONNECTION
BUT WOULDNT THERE BE A GOOD AMOUNT MADE FROM THE THROUGH-STATE TRAVELERS?
I REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHETHER OFF PEAK COMMUTER RAIL RIDERS EVEN COVER THEIR OPERATING COSTS. OFF PEAK RIDERS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO COVER CAPITAL COSTS BECAUSE THE PEAK RIDERS WOULD COVER IT (IF WE HAD RAMSAY PRICING) BUT REALLY YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT SEPTA AND NJTRANSIT DO NOT ACTUALLY MAKE ANY MONEY AND IT IS LIKELY THAT EVERY OFF PEAK TRAIN THEY RUN ACTUALLY LOSE MONEY IN REAL TERMS. OBVIOUSLY, COMMUTER RAIL IS A REAL ALTERNATIVE IF THERE ARE OFF PEAK TRAINS IN CASE YOU NEED TO COME HOME FROM WORK DURING THE DAY, BUT THEY REALLY NEED TO MANAGE IT...
IF I RAN THE NORTHEAST PASSENGER RAIL AUTHORITY, I WOULD PROBABLY DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY, BUT I THINK THE MEMBER STATES WOULD FIRE ME.
AEM7
Stop shouting for pitty sake!
ITS REVERSE SALLAMISM DISORDER!!!
I THINK THAT AEM7 IS ONLY SHOUTING AS REVENGE AGAINST NEWSRPTR, WHO IF HE REALLY IS A NEWSREPORTER, I CAN'T IMAGINE HE GETS A LOT OF READERS (OR VIEWERS OR LISTENERS) OF HIS NEWS REPORTS.
why would u imagine that?
why would u imagine that?
Exactly.
-Hank
1. ALL CAPS is shouting in Internet Speak. If you shouted at me directly, I'd most likely either pop you one or walk rapidly away.
2. The Maryland Transit Administration (MTA), of which MARC is a part, has talked to both DelDOT and SEPTA about the possibility of MARC extending to Wilmington. DelDot already pays SEPTA's expenses of running in Delaware,so that part of the issue is open to discussion.
SEPTA has no position on it at all. We are talking about a 32 mile break in Commuter Rail here, so it may come to pass. Wait and see.
I READ ON THE NJT WEBSITE THAT NJT WILL TAKE OVER CLOCKER SERVICE SOMETIME SOON. WHEN IS THIS SCHEDULED TO HAPPEN.....AND WHAT WILL THE SERVICE FREQUENCIES BE LIKE. WILL THEY STICK TO RUNNING ONLY THE CLOCKER TRAINS.....OR WILL THEY TRY TO EXPAND SERVICE.
BY THE WAY...WHY DOSENT AMTRAK KEEP HOLD OF THIS SERVICE? ALL THE CLOCKER TRAINS SEEM TO HAVE PRETTY STEADY RIDERSHIP (ALTHOUGH IT'S ENTIRELY TOOOOO EXPENSIVE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE)
2006
THE REASON AMTRAK WANTS RID OF IT IS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MAKE MONEY.
aem7
SO WHY DOES NJT WANT IT.....I ASSUMED THAT THE SERVICE WAS SUBSIDIZED BY PENNDOT
NJT WANTS TO LOSE AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE.
ACTUALLY, I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHY NJT WANTS TO TAKE OVER THE CLOCKERS. I THINK THEY JUST WANTED MORE CONTROL OVER WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A COMMUTER TRAIN FOR NEW JERSEY COMMUTERS. PERHAPS THEY FEEL THEY CAN MANAGE IT BETTER. NJDOT IS ACTUALLY QUITE PROGRESSIVE IN THE SENSE THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO SPEND MONEY TO GIVE THEIR CITIZENS TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS OTHER THAN THE AUTOMOBILE. THEY ALSO HAVE HIGH TAXES WHICH MEANS THEY CAN AFFORD IT.
I HAVE ALWAYS FELT NJTRANSIT SHOULD TAKE OVER THE SEPTA TRENTON LINE, THEY CAN RUN IT BETTER AND MORE EFFICIENTLY.
aem7
I AGREE WITH YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY ON THAT ONE.......IT WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE ESPECIALLY DURING LATE EVENINGS WHEN SEPTA CHOOSES NOT TO PROVIDE CONNECTING SERVICE THROUGH TO PHILLY. AS A LATE COMMUTER FROM NYC...THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE WILLING TO USE IT
Would you two dopes turn off your caps lock?
-Hank
WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?
PLEASE STOP YELLING.
Because of you I am going to have to go buy some Gormon's Ear Guards.
GUARD YOUR EARS...with Gorman's.
How come you didn't answer the Q?
AEM7
NJT subsidizes the Clockers and Amtrak has to honore NJT commutation tickets. It's a lose-lose deal, and under the current contract, they cannot stop at Hamilton. Under NJT, they will be discontinued west of Trenton.
!??? Clockers only go to Trenton? That is a retrograde step...
AEM7
When this question came up earlier in the year I asked a couple of NJT people who ride with me on 3812 and they said that NJT wanted the slots to improve NEC/Coastline service. They had no idea about continuing service past Trenton.
What is that big rectangular black box in between Castle Hill and Parkchester on the 6's El? The box is near a signal which is located shortly after leaving the Castle Hill AV, station. This big black box is mounted on a platform which looks like an addition to the EL. The box was put up recently because I recall the signal always being there, but today is the first I've seen the box.
All Information Welcome! :-)
Addition: Could this be a flywheel?
I don't think so! Flies would never need a wheel that big.
: )
All depends on the butterfat content. Whoop. :)
Perhaps OnTheJuice knows what this box is?
i don't do trackwork! Trackline is still electromech...there may be attempts to provide automation...but the cream is in opening the box.
Pandoras box...
There are many silver handles and latches on this box. I'd like to get a closer look at it, but I could get killed.
Sounds like a relay cabinet for the signals. Electronics need to go somewhere ...
The signal was always there, but this box was put there within the last two weeks. Was this relay box recently moved?
I have no idea, that'd be my guess though.
Is Back Bay where CP-COVE used to be? Has CP-COVE moved since the days of the Providence & New England and Boston & Albany? Why is the Inland Route Back Back station further West than the Shore Line Back Bay station? I know that Orange Line sits in between the two, but the way they've built it seems to be kinda weird.
AEM7
Have any of you used the SPV Rail Atlas? They are published by www.spv.co.uk. While pretty good for non-detailed work and for seeing where the rail lines generally goes, I've found them very inaccurate for things like where exactly the stations are, where the interlockings are and what the interlockings look like. I only tracked the map between BOS and ALB, so I can't vouch for its accuracy elsewhere, but up here it seems pretty bad. That said, it is the most detailed and accurate map available to the general public (that is, excluding industrial use maps produced by people like DeskMap Systems Inc.
Any one else with stories?
AEM7
Yeah sure, I bought mine a while back, I like it enough, my biggest gripe is that is doesn't show the Cherry Hill NJT station on the AC line. It shows race and north race, and also the bridge over the Cooper River, but not the Cherry Hill station. Instead it shows Haddonfield as the station after Lindenwold, and while Patco stops there, the map doesn't make any mention of subway lines like that (except of course the A train to Rockaway and the 5 Train to Dyre), so Haddonfield should not appear at all on the map.
So far that's really my only gripe with it, I think I may have discovered others, but forgot them, they were just about as minor.
Haddonfield as the station after Lindenwold, and while Patco stops there, the map doesn't make any mention of subway lines like that so Haddonfield should not appear at all on the map.
Those were old stations. If the station is filled in, then it's a site of an old station. Only outlined stations have current passenger service. Cherry Hill was probably opened after the Atlas was printed, and it would not show a "former station" since Cherry Hill was opened where there was no interlocking -- the station was put there and sidings extended because it was a good place for a Park & Ride.
The problems I have with it is more to do with its failure to show industrial sidings and many a times I have come across branches that it either doesn't show or show in the wrong place in relation to the stations. For instance, there was some abandoned shit in Western Mass that it simply doesn't show, and then it tries to show bodies of water but some of the bodies of water are shown in the wrong place with respect to junctions or stations... all on the Boston & Albany...
AEM7
My SPV Atlas is showing an abandoned line underground from Grand Central to Chambers St belonging to NYC. This is in addition to the "High Line" on the West Side. Any idea why this was abandoned? Would have made a nice terminal for Metro North, no?
AEM7
It's not underground. It was a former surface RR.
I assume you mean the former NY Central RR.
#6312 MNRR
Yes. The former NYC tracks ran on the road. I believe the underpass that runs through the "30's" blocks on Park Ave South was originally for the trains, or had something to do with the trains that used to run right on the surface. There was also a barn on 26th Street (or one of those streets) that stored the trains (or horse cars as they were at one time.) Maybe someone else can clarify it, as that is all I know about those surface tracks.
The barn on 26th Street was the terminal were the steam trains were broken up and pulled by horses. When Grand Central Depot was built, the line south of 42nd Street was leased to a horsecar line and the 26th Street terminal became superfluous. It was sold to PT Barnum and turned into an amphitheater. It passed through several owners before it came into possesion of William K. Vanderbilt and was named MADISON SQUARE GARDEN.
The underpass at 33rd St/Park Av was a trolley underpass. There is an old trolley station there but would be impossible to go to because of the vehicular traffic (one lane in each direction). I think if you can look into the tunnel after dark you can see it.
"My SPV Atlas is showing an abandoned line underground from Grand Central to Chambers St belonging to NYC. This is in addition to the "High Line" on the West Side. Any idea why this was abandoned? Would have made a nice terminal for Metro North, no?"
It already did make a nice terminal, ages ago. Before the Grand Central Terminal (GCT) that we see today was built, a predecessor GCT stood on Park Avenue in the lower 30's (or upper 20's?). There is no visible evidence of this structure today, although there are two clues to its former existence: 1) the name change from Park Avenue to Park Avenue South, and 2) the Park Avenue tunnel.
The terminal stood where Park Avenue seemingly makes a random change in name from Park to Park South, and I believe the Park Avenue tunnel, now used for cars, was originally used for rail. I don't know anything about tracks heading further South to Chambers Street, as they were before my time here.
MATT-2AV
The terminal was at 26th Street. The name change occurs where the street ramps up, allowing the tracks to be in a tunnel. above the tunnel was a park, thus justifying the name.
No such park existed below, and the name did not apply. It was 4th Avenue until the 1950s.
Other than the D-Type trip coming up next Sunday, is there anything else planned for the remainder of this year? Also what does the "D" in D Type stand for? Anyone?
Upcoming Events
I'm surprised you don't have October 13 listed as Subtalk Day at Branford :)
--Mark
I'll list it if someone emails me the details.
Is this offical?
I haven't seen anything at BERA about it.
Is this offical?
I haven't seen anything at BERA about it.
I would guess it's as "official" as any other Subtalk field trip. But then, no one's emailed me anything so it might have been a joke to begin with.
It's no joke. A bunch of us, myself included, are heading up to Branford on Sunday the 13th. BTW, how many of you would be willing to chip in to charter 1689 that day?
Hey Sparky ... wanna give Dave the details?
And Steve B-8AVEXP meant Sunday "the 13th of October" :)
Yeah, I'd chip in.
--Mark
Are you bringing your video camera? Or does that go without saying?:)
I want to get a shot of one of 1689's sign boxes all signed up as a D with "Coney Island" backlit. Memories of May 1967 there.
>>>"It's no joke. A bunch of us, myself included, are heading up to Branford on Sunday the 13th of October.<<<
It is for real, when a number of Sub Talkers will be at Branford.
>>>"BTW, how many of you would be willing to chip in to charter 1689 that day?"<<<
At this time it is not officially listed as a function on the BERA
calendar. Much has to do, with the number of willing subtalkers
that day, donating to offset the costs by chartering 1689. I have a
suggested donation for the day, if enough responders will contact me
via email, not this board.
Also, I'm walking on eggs, since "SubTalk Sunday", Oct. 13 does follow
"Autumn in New York", Sept. 28~29 by only two weeks.
Let us know your feelings about this date at Branford. Enough reponse
and we will make it an official SubTalk Field Trip.
;-) Sparky
>>>"It's no joke. A bunch of us, myself included, are heading up to Branford on Sunday the 13th of October. BTW, how many of you would be willing to chip in to charter 1689 that day?"<<< SteveB-8thAVEXP.
It's now official Lou from Brooklyn and I have committed to a Charter
of 1689 for a "Gathering of Subtalkers at Branford". Check current
events for the details or email either of us. Hope to see you there.
;-) Sparky
D = fourth in a series of BMT designed rolling stock.
I assume other than the FanTrips mentioned that means a NO.
#1979 1 7 Ave Local
"D" is the fourth letter of the alphabet. The BMT Standards were "A" types (single cars) and "B" types (three car sets). (OK, there were also "BX" types, three car sets with two power cars and a trailer). The next cars on the BMT were el car rebuilds, the "C" types. The Triplexes came next, so they were "D" types.
-- Ed Sachs
OK I rode the Queens Blvd line and saw what was going on with the F. F trains that ran from 6th ave and 63rd street ran express to 179. F trains coming from the crosstown line ran local and terminated and 71st-Continental. Those F's ran local Manhattan bound and via 63rd street. I guess it was decided that half the F's were to terminate at 2nd ave, while the other half would go to Brooklyn and then return to Queens via crosstown. They were out in force, on the PA and even some on bullhorns in stations.
This is what I did. I took the 7 around 12:15pm and it was an R62A. The M tracka t Main street was taped off. I saw alot of other R62A's returning to Main street on the way to 74th street, must've been 5 sets in a row.
At 74th street I didn't have to wait long, before an F pulled up on the local track. As I was taking it to Woodhaven Blvd for Queens Cnter mall, it was weird seeing another F pass on the express track right next to us. The digital sign on our's said F via CROSSTOWN. Those signs are pretty good when it comes to G.O.'s.
Then after the mall I went down for an F or R to Forest Hills. Had to wait awhile, and if I could've kicked myself I would for not bringing my camera, because I saw the garbage train operating real slow on the Manhattan bound local track. Headed by an EP car, with flat cars full of garbage, and several workers hanging out in the rear two R32 cars w/ac.
Well I got an R after that, took it to Forest Hills.
After Forest Hills and the quick rain shower ended, I headed back to Flushing. An F arrived on the local platform, with it's doors closed for about 5 minutes, then finally opened. I wanted to take the express though, and I just missed an E. While I was waiting I mesured a temp of 104 degrees in the station. Felt like an oven. Another E came, and it was pretty packed, got off at Roosevelt for a Mets fan packed train back to Flushing.
I think the ppl most inconvenienced by the GO were those on the 179st and Brooklyn ends of the F.
Does anyone on this board know where DEEX 990413 is at this time?
AEM7
Does anyone on this board know where DEEX 990413 is at this time?
Can't be 100% sure *where* it is at any moment, but it is a coal car, and frequently passes by here. (Here being the old NP mainline through North Dakota)
: ) Elias
I've seen it in Toledo. I was hoping to go chase it.
AEM7
What's the significance of this car?
And the signifigance of the graffiti, aside from the Allman Brothers?
-Hank
And the signifigance of the graffiti, aside from the Allman Brothers?
"Freight train, each car looks the same, all the same.
And no one knows the Gypsy's name
No one hears his lonely sigh,
There are no blankets where he lies.
In all his deepest dreams the Gypsy flies
with sweet Melissa... mmm... "
c.1972, Allman Bros Band, No Exit Music Co.
-Hank
Not much, except that it marked a turning point in Melissa and I's relationship... the graffiti was done by neither of us, but the train should happen to pull past when M & I were awaiting for the #448 at Toledo, OH on what would have been her first trip up to BOS.
Whoever wrote that deserves a little wedding gift from us (when it happens).
Yes, I am a hopeless Romantic.
AEM7
That is a neat story. May you and Melissa have an everlasting relationship.
No wonder it's quiet on here. I guess I am the only one with no life...
AEM7
"But cha are Blanche! You ARE in that chair!"
(That's a quote from my favorite movie.) Actually, looking around, there are a number of posts this Saturday evening. And who said being on SubTalk wasn't part of having a life?
well put
Nope. At the time you posted this I was SLEEPING.
It was 15 hours of sleep following 28 hours of wake and a one-way ride on the Port Jervis line.
The rest of us were out railfanning. (I was, at least.)
Saturday night is 'Scratchitti Night.' R142s for the 'Home Boyz'
I don't railfan, except when I travel by train.
AEM7
Your loss. That's one of the (numerous) reasons I'm pretty much only interested in rapid transit systems -- my Saturday night railfan expedition cost me $1.36, and my nine hours yesterday cost me $4.00 (which I made up for by finding a discarded $4.50 MetroCard) and got me rides on 12 trains and a bus (and I would have gotten in some more riding had I not waited two hours in vain for a railfan window on the F -- oh well).
I guess there are philosophical differences between some of us.
I prefer to railfan real railroads because transit systems are boring. The formations are fixed, there are only a number of different types of rolling stock, and there are only a limited number of routes and photo opportunities.
On the other hand, I love having fun tracking DEEX 990 413, especially when I have long waits at rail terminals because I ride Amtrak and Greyhound. I had a seven-hour layover at Columbus once, and I walked up to the Scioto Tower and captured all the action there. Stunning photos of an NS merchandizer crossing the Scioto River on the ex-PRR viaduct through the city.
I personally think that going out "railfanning" purely for the purpose of railfanning is pretty sad. I guess I'm not a foamer.
AEM7
It's largely a matter of different interests, I think.
I'd say my interests lie primarily in three areas. First is the general interest in urban history and development, particularly in the city I've spent most of my life in (New York, for anyone who hasn't figured that out yet). Second is the operational interest in transporting lots of people efficiently. Third is the interest in intricate infrastructure, especially in a tightly constrained environment.
Rails aren't of much intrinsic interest to me; they're largely a means to an end (namely, transporting lots of people efficiently). Amtrak, commuter rail, freight, and the like are peripheral interests at best.
I have no idea what DEEX 990 413 is, nor do I really care, unless it's part of urban history, or it transports lots of people efficiently, or it has something to do with an intricate infrastructure.
Anybody else care to contribute?
First is the general interest in urban history and development, particularly in the city I've spent most of my life in (New York, for anyone who hasn't figured that out yet). Second is the operational interest in transporting lots of people efficiently. Third is the interest in intricate infrastructure, especially in a tightly constrained environment.
I have to agree with you. In general I like trains - all trains. I also like "real" railroads because I like Locomotives and infastructure. (I don't have much interest in MU railroading (such as the LIRR electrics), not that I don't like them, just that once you've seen one you've seen them all. That's funny because I really love the subway, and what is the subway but a "small" MU operation - go figure. But I think you hit the nail on the head with the "general interest in urban history", I like seeing the trains alongside of the buildings, for example.
I also like the infastructure - the tracks, etc but mostly the stations. I like stations, whether it be subway stations, or "real" railroad stations. I'm perfectly happy railfanning let's say a "real" railroad line, just for the stations. For example, even though the M1's aren't my favorite, I loved "railfanning" the Port Washington line, or Hempstead line because of the stations. Of course I took photos of the trains too, but I like the infastructure.
When I railfan other railroads, even if there isn't a train around, I may get out of my car, just to take a photo of an old station along the line, even if a train is not expected to come.
So in summary, I like the subway because I love urban history. I like looking at photos of let's say the Jamaica El (or Manhattan Els), and recognizing buildings that are still there and the el no longer travels in front of them. I'll buy, let's say a book of "Old Brooklyn", because I love looking at old photos of neighborhoods and buildings and reading history (and of course what history of Brooklyn doesn't contain it's fair share of "train" photos. That's also why I like those "Where is this" photos, because I like "before and after" photos, which is kind of what identifying old photos is a part of.
This is what I call a real train...
I have to put my two cents in. I really cannot describe why I love trains. My first train ride was like a homecoming. Many people have asked me to explain it, and my answer is always this: "If you need an explanation of why I love them, then you can never understand."
Subways facinate me because of the sheer complexity. These giant trains running through seemingly endless tunnel under a city's streets. The complexity of the switching. The speed. The fact that a train that was just 25 feet underground is now 25 feet in the air. That fact that entering an IND station is like entering another subterranian city.
I also am a great lover of my city, and of traveling. I can go downtown into NYC everyday and never get bored.
The reason I'm dragging on is, as I said, I really can't explain my facination. Why I can ride the same lines 1,000 times and never get bored and always find something new. I can't explain why the thought of the W running on the N line is exciting.
I'm a railfan. And, if you think all the above is strange, then, in my opinion, you're not a railfan.
Its a shame, I didn't go anywhere I saturday, I was so bored I just left my Computer on SubTalk and checked the board like very 10 mins, so I knew what was going that day.
What is the difference between the Superliner I & II?? I know II has different Trucks.
I think Superliner II is specced for different speeds (because of the trucks). Obviously, they were built by different companies. Functionally, I don't think there are many differences.
I just heard from somewhere that Superliner II's were tested up to 125mph at the Pueblo test track. Don't know how true that was. Apparently, the train held the track really well even at 125mph.
AEM7
I hear superliner IIs flip more impressively too.
Seriously, though, with all the talk about Acela, the Superliner's crash performance is horrid, at best. No reason in the world why a simple derailment at 50mph should flip and tip a train.
Seriously, though, with all the talk about Acela, the Superliner's crash performance is horrid, at best. No reason in the world why a simple derailment at 50mph should flip and tip a train.
Humph. Shows how little you know about the Superliners.
AEM7
Wha'ts to know? They perform horribly in crashes. Time and time again, even minor derailments have resulted in them ending up on the side, upside down, or zigzagging along the tracks. Thats bad design, no matter how you slice it. Compare the way superliners flip in derailments to any other train car in the US. You never see M-1s doing that, even though the LIRR's had plenty of derailments (including ones at speed), you never see Amfleets doing it. Superliners do it reliably. Very reliably. In fact, even in the Chase accident, I don't think many, if any, Amfleets ended up on their sides, and in other NEC accidents, they generally haven't.
The Superliner based Surfliners are just as bad, in once grade accident, 1/2 the train ended up flipping and getting 'written off'
IMHO, it's a defect in the superliner design that should be addressed (in fact, the NTSB is now looking into the car's flip proneness). there's absolutely NO reason why a train car should flip from derailment.
And please don't go into the little can Vs big roomy car bullshit. I don't care how roomy the Superliner is. It flips easily, and therefore is a poor, if not downright dangerous design.
I don't profess to be an expert in Superliner design, or indeed any structural discipline. However, I believe a thing or two which I had picked up over years of observing and reading about Superliners:
They perform horribly in crashes.
They're the only type of car where no significant life loss has ever occured due to causes other than fire or flood. While the Amfleets have never disintegrated in accidents, significant life losses have resulted in Amfleets due to structural failings. Not in a Superliner.
Compare the way superliners flip in derailments to any other train car in the US.
Superliners do not "flip" any more than any type of railcar. Superliners, despite their high and bulky appearance, have a center of gravity that is comparable to the Amfleets. In the Amfleets, there is nothing underneath the carbody except trucks. This has the effect of putting the center of gravity some 4 ft above the top of the trucks. In a Superliner, the body is underslung and extends below the trucks. Much of the heavy equipment in a Superliner -- brakes, air condition units, etc, are mounted in the space just above the trucks. The top deck, where the passengers are carried, are actually much lighter than the lower deck where most of the metal is. The result is a center of gravity not much higher than 4 ft above the top of the trucks -- about 4.5 ft, if I remember right.
Superliners operate in tougher terrain than Amfleets generally do, with the result that a derailment easily results in a slip down an embankment. When a car slides down an embankment, it flips. Amfleet or not.
Superliners can sometimes turn over and end up sitting on their sides. This is a very common mode of dissipating energy in a "cornfield" head-on collision. Witness the City of New Orleans wreck. Compare this to the "lightweight and small" single level design, as in the German ICE in the Eschede wreck: the single levels perform no better when impacted against a practically immovable load. The coach body remains structurally sound, protecting the occupant, unlike the ICE which burst open.
Superliners have standard AAR 'H' couplers between cars. This is a weak point because of the relative weight of the Superliner cars compared to other types of cars, thus the Superliner cars are more likely to become uncoupled in a wreck. This is something that the FRA should address.
The Superliners have very nice riding trucks -- way more stable than the Amfleet, and much better tracking qualities.
AEM7
>>Superliners have very nice riding trucks <<
after MUCH tweaking. When first delivered they were awful.
Indeed. You're much safer on a Superliner car than you are on many European train sets.
A guy on NYCrail.com said that he rode a R-68 before with a railfan, The Cab was a Half-Width Cab and the other end was a full-width cab, but he said the half-width cab was the control cab, Is there a R-68 that is like that?
Acela, that was before the R68/68A's were linked. Yes, before the R68/68A's were linked, you can operate from either end because it was a single car. You can tell by looking at the design with head and marker lights on both ends, but in reality, the brakes were capped on the half-width on the even units, and both ends on the odd units. So, now that can't be done anymore. One exception to that is the 9 cars on the Franklin Ave shuttle(2916-2924) where those cars are singles, so you can operate from either end on those.
I have ridden on several R-68 Q trains with the half cab on one of the end motors facing out. Great railfan view. Too bad it's a thing of the past now, along with the final field shunt step being enabled.
They used to run like that before they were linked into 4 car sets. I looked out the railfan window of one on a D train in the early 1990's.
As long as Fred doesn't get lost, we are meeting in Raritan tomorrow morning for a train ride to Newark. We are scheduled to arrive in Newark at 11:17 am. If anyone's interested in hooking up with us, be in front of the McDonald's inside Newark Penn Station around that time. I'd like to show Fred the Newark City Subway, even though the good cars are long gone! Afterward, we are probably going to end up in New York. From a post the other day, Fred mentioned something about Coney Island and the Cyclone. I prefer not to go there because when Fred came to town a few months ago, we went there at THAT time. I'd like to do something *different* this time around.
If anyone's interested in hooking up in New York, I can't really say what time we'll be arriving there so it's hard to make plans for that. But, if anyone can make it to Newark, maybe we'll see you tomorrow!
I'll plan on joining you for the Newark portion of the trip... check your email for more info.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My mistake, folks! We're scheduled to arrive in Newark at 12:17 pm, 1 hour later than previously advertised. We'll be waiting by the McDonalds downstairs for any latecomers until about 12:30 or so.
Well, we showed Fred what a good time it is possible to have without going into NYC. Marty (5301 Fishbowl) met up with Fred and took the Raritan line into Newark, where I was waiting for them. We rode the entire length of the City Subway line (with a break for lunch at the far end), then took PATH to Pavonia, and then rode the HBLR from there to 34th Street in Bayonne before returning to Newark Penn Station. At Newark Penn we met up with Steve Olsen, who was waiting to run the Raritan train back out; they were going to ride with him while I took the NJCL back. A good time was had by all. Fred is as hyper in person as he appears in his posts - he had more energy than Marty and I put together. Fair warning to those who are planning on railfanning with him in October - you'll be worn out before he's even slowing down to catch his breath!
Several PCCs still on the property... couldn't tell how many but it appeared to be more than what I expected, given the reports we've had about several being shipped to San Francisco. Unfortunately we couldn't get to the proper angle for a photograph, although I did shoot one that was off by itself. And we did not encounter a single fare inspector on either the City Subway or HBLR, although we did make sure we had properly paid our fares and validated our tickets. The new cars were actually quite comfortable, but I still can't get used to the idea of facing backward when I'm at the front. Oh well...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fair warning to those who are planning on railfanning with him in October - you'll be worn out before he's even slowing down to catch his breath!
No problem. I can outlast him. I'e been known to wear out many a guest's foot when they railfan with me :)
--Mark
Hey Chris, remember when we rode on Denver's light rail line last September? We didn't encounter any fare inspectors, either. I think I can count on one hand the number of inspectors I've ever seen.
Right you are, and I didn't see any on the Buffalo light rail/subway when my wife and I rode it last month. But I have seen fare inspectors every time I've ridden the Baltimore light rail, and every time I've seen them escort someone off the car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The "fare inspectors" in Baltimore are actually MTA cops. The usual policy is to ask the passenger that does not have a POP ticket of some kind (single ride, day pass, weekly pass, monthly pass) to leave the car at the next stop (they do make sure the person leaves) and purchase the ticket. If they get guff, they get a free ticket (that you pay for at the Circuit Court of Baltimore City or the county the car is in.) and are escorted off.
BTW, fare compliance on the Light Rail is in the high 90's month after month. The MTA makes it so easy to get the proper fare.
>>>>...and every time I've seen them escort someone off the car.
<<<<
Umm, it wasn't Doug, was it?
Peace,
ANDEE
Umm, it wasn't Doug, was it?
Now that you mention it... :-)
No, actually... one time they did take a woman off in handcuffs though after she let loose with a string of profanity at the officers. Not sure the handcuffs had anything to do with fare beating or the profanity either, though... they seemed to be acquainted with her from some prior encounter.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL
Peace,
ANDEE
ANDEE,
I went through the same situation in Newark, the same day as Doug
last August. Not being familiar with the fare purchasing procedures,
I purchased, what I thought was to be four single trips. The damn
NJT machinery is so slow, that by the time it printed the first ticket, I assumed it was for all the trips. Took the one ticket and went about my business. On a return trip from Franklin Avenue, was escorted off the car at Orange Street for improper fare. Explained what I did, but the Newark Inspectors think their discharge doesn't smell. Was given a warning, that next time I was subject to arrest for fare evasion. This was the day before last day of PCC service.
At least in Baltimore, they have the courtesy to have you pay the
fare and be on your way, without further abashment.
The NJT Inspectors must were their badges on the PJs when they sleep.
After that vexation, I will not railfan NJT. If the employees are
not trained to handle tourist [railfans/foamers] unfamiliar with there methods of collection,
except profocation, they can KMA...
;-) Sparky
You got THAT right. I'll spare you the gory details of my episode with the Newark fare inspectors last month except to say:
-Schedules should be posted by the ticket machines and validators at Newark Penn so you don't validate until you're ready to board. This is especially crucial on weekends when the LRVs run fifteen minutes apart and you want to do a round trip within the validated time.
-The way the machines and validators are laid out- and the lack of clear instructions- makes it too easy to misunderstand the procedure and accidentally not pay your proper fare, especially if you're not familiar with the system. The options on the ticket machine- round trip, single trip, reduced fare, transfer- are very ambiguous. There never seems to be NJT personnel there to explain just what to do. So you have to be a mind reader and gamble you did the right thing.
-Enforcement seems to be extremely inconsistent. I'd rode the system about six times prior to this, and only once were there any inspectors anywhere. That was Christmas eve 2000, a rare Sunday when the PCCs were running instead of the usual bustitute service. NEVER have I seen any inspectors on the HBLR- weekday or weekend.
-Don't let somebody through, then discover a discrepancy on the ticket and make them walk back down an up escalator. If there's a problem, confront the perpetrator on the spot, not after the fact.
-Inspectors seem to have no tolerance or understanding of people who just want to take a round trip and back on the same ticket and are slightly late of the validation deadline.
The San Diego light rail also runs on the ticket vending machine honor system. In 1992 we rode it midweek from downtown to the international border at Tijuana/San Ysidro. An inspector did come around, and one woman didn't pass muster. The inspector cheerfully said in classic southern California style, "We'll let it slide this time, but next time, try to have the right fare, okay? Buh-bye!"
There WERE notices on the vehicle advising a $150 fine for fare violations.
NJT's fares are extremely low compared to the costs of operating the service as it is. Maybe the machines are confusing, but don't fault them for penalizing you for not having the correct fare. It is your responsibility to ensure that you have the correct fare.
-Inspectors seem to have no tolerance or understanding of people who just want to take a round trip and back on the same ticket and are slightly late of the validation deadline.
That's totally unacceptable. The reason there is a deadline is because you must travel before the deadline, not after. Not 30 seconds after, not two hours after.
said in classic southern California style, "We'll let it slide this time, but next time, try to have the right fare, okay? Buh-bye!"
That's exactly what makes the "proof-of-payment" system ineffective.
AEM7
You're right. A buck ten is a reasonable fare, and there IS no excuse. But, as I said, paying the fare wasn't the issue. Meeting the validation deadline stamped on the ticket was. If there were schedules by the ticket machines and validators at Newark Penn, I would've waited until right before the arrival of the next LRV to validate. Then I would've made the round trip comfortably within the 45-minute window allotted me. But there weren't. The machines are on the mezzanine between the main level of Penn and the platform. The schedules were down on the platform. Should I run down and then up again? Guess so.
The lack of a schedule made me unaware that I had just missed the 1:58 and that the next LRV would arrive at 2:13. So I purchased the ticket and validated it at 2:00, which gave me a deadline of 2:45. Had there BEEN a schedule, I'd have waited till 2:12 to validate, which would've given me till 2:57 to make the round trip. As it happens we returned to Penn at 2:55 having done the round trip. But because I validated too early- and wasted 13 minutes waiting on the platform- they nailed me.
I offered the inspectors the explanation as detailed above, but they didn't seem to understand- or want to. My offering to pay an extra fare was rejected. Only the presence of a trembling six-year-old boy saved us from the realization of their threats of arrest. So the admission must be made that they DO have hearts after all. (But they were too busy with us to check other people's tickets, so who knows how many others got away scot-free at our expense?)
The moral: If you comply with all the rules to the letter, nobody checks and people who don't get to ride for free- witness the HBLR. But the one time you make a mistake (not running down and then up to check a badly placed schedule), they WILL check.
I offered the inspectors the explanation as detailed above, but they didn't seem to understand- or want to. My offering to pay an extra fare was rejected...
The "proof of payment" system relies on statistical probabilities. The expected cost of not paying for a ticket must be higher than the expected cost of paying for a ticket. That is why people would choose to pay the fare. To enforce the "expected costs", they must charge everyone who did not have a valid fare, regardless of their excuses or reason. If they did not do that, many will cotton on to the fact that the expected cost of not paying for a fare is in fact lower than the penalty $ they advertize, and will start not paying the fare on a regular basis.
This is fundamentally why I am against the "PROFF of payment" system, which has attained much popularity amongst the "transit professional community". What do I know anyways? I'm only a lowly "intercity transportation professional". Those transit people think they know better.
The moral: If you comply with all the rules to the letter, nobody checks and people who don't get to ride for free- witness the HBLR.
That's PROFF-of-payment for you. Your grief is NOT with the inspectors. Your grief is with the system. I have the same grief with the system. Try to make the boffins at NJT see that. They think just because in Europe they have this crazy proff-of-payment system, it has to be a good system in the U.S.
PROFF-of-payment is a scandal.
On the return trip, you should have purchased a separate ticket, having learned your lesson that you should validate tickets only after you have checked the schedule. After all, the PROFF-of-payment system puts the onus on YOU and YOU alone to SCAM the system. I take pride in not paying my fare when riding on PROFF-of-payment systems and never getting caught. I see a fare inspector and I get off at the next stop. That's not theft. It's the system. They ENCOURAGE this. They ENCOURAGE people to pay the fare, and they DISCOURAGE people from not paying the fare, through penalties and inspections.
AEM7
"That's PROFF-of-payment for you. Your grief is NOT with the inspectors. Your grief is with the system. I have the same grief with the system. Try to make the boffins at NJT see that. They think just because in Europe they have this crazy proff-of-payment system, it has to be a good system in the U.S."
Yeah, you could say it's ill will caused by quirks in 'the system': how come everyone ELSE gets away with it? How come the one time I try it, they catch me? Inconsistent or selective enforcement is always maddening. I feel that whenever I see a young, attractive woman get buzzed through the gate after she tearfully tells the station agent she didn't KNOW her Metrocard was empty and had no money to refill it. Or a bus driver allows someone passage despite inability to pay fare due to lack of change or sufficient money in Metrocard. Or an LIRR conductor who lets slide "just for today" a commuter who 'forgot her monthly'. (How DO you forget your monthly? Wouldn't you keep it in the same place every day?)
The whole reason for the proof of payment system is to save money by not having turnstiles, station agents and fareboxes. But the possibilities for abuse are too numerous. People who would never think of jumping a turnstile might find it very tempting to gamble that no one will check their ticket. Every time I ride the HBLR I see teenagers hopping on at one stop and off at the next, especially south of Liberty Park. They go utterly unchallenged.
"On the return trip, you should have purchased a separate ticket, having learned your lesson that you should validate tickets only after you have checked the schedule. After all, the PROFF-of-payment system puts the onus on YOU and YOU alone to SCAM the system."
Right again. But having previously seen an overall lack of enforcement on the both the Newark and HBLR systems, I foolishly gambled I could get away with an explanation if challenged.
What makes this all the more galling is that the only place the inspectors seem to be is where you exit at Newark. That means outbound passengers or inbound passengers exiting before Newark could conceivably get away without paying. If you're a regular rider, you would notice this and become aware of what you could get away with.
"I take pride in not paying my fare when riding on PROFF-of-payment systems and never getting caught. I see a fare inspector and I get off at the next stop."
If the inspector doesn't follow you off, consider yourself lucky. As for Newark, they don't seem to check on the vehicle itself- only on the platform after you've completed your journey.
No matter how you slice it, the proof-of-payment system encourages abuse on both sides. It seems like the passengers and inspectors are engaged in a continuous game of "Gotcha!"
Inconsistent or selective enforcement is always maddening. I feel that whenever I see a young, attractive woman get buzzed through the gate after she tearfully tells the station agent...
Actually, I don't feel any anger or injustice when I see that. Maybe you are an old and unattractive granny, and are jealous -- but I'm a young and horny guy, and when I see that, all I can think of is how nice she is.
I've also been "buzzed through" on occasions, when I was at times of dire need (left my wallet at my girlfriend's house and had to catch a flight at O'Hare) and got buzzed through by female station agents.
I've also forgotten my monthly T-pass at times: On occasions, if I am distracted by something immediately following swiping the card at the turnstile (usually by the need for coffee), I will put my monthly in my top shirt pocket instead of in my wallet where it belongs. If I happen to forget and then if I happen not to clear out my top shirt pocket that day, I will sometimes end up leaving my monthly at home.
I really don't have much of a problem with selective enforcement. I always try to pay my fare (except on PROFF-of-payment systems that I only see once in a blue moon) and if I happen to forget my farecard somewhere, I always hope someone will let it slide. They usually do. It's not like I haven't paid for my ride, because I'm paying for it on monthly contract anyway.
If the inspector doesn't follow you off, consider yourself lucky.
You get off the property as soon as you disembark from the train. If you're off the property, inspectors have no jurisdiction. They can claim they saw you on board, but it's your word against theirs. That's how screwed up PROFF-of-payment systems are.
MBTA has turnstiles that are permanently open. In the interest of protection their revenue, I will not disclose their locations.
AEM7
MBTA has turnstiles that are permanently open.
As does LU. To protect their revenue, I'll only disclose one:
Goldhawk Road
POP is effective if it is done properly. NJT is off the mark by having unrealistic expiration time. Baltimore's POP system on the Central Light Rail Line is an example of POP properly done: fare tickets that expire at system closing, Round trip tickets available, plus weekly/monthly passes at the correct time of week/month. Also. the inspectors are MTA cops and handle non-payment issues properly (the person is invited to leave the car at the next station and purchase the proper ticket. Give the cop guff and they issue a free ticket that is paid for at court.
Baltimore's compliance is usually in the high 90's. MTA makes it easy to pay your fare.
Give the cop guff and they issue a free ticket that is paid for at court.
GUFF?
Heh. That'll do it. :)
If anything, I think that's a bit too lenient. For one thing, if the pass is valid until closing, it's in effect a round-trip ticket already -- an unlimited ticket for the day, really. (But NJT's 45 minutes is insufficient. There should be enough time from validation to wait the maximum scheduled headway, ride the entire line both ways, and deal with any remotely likely temporary service disruptions. At the very least, fare inspectors should be instructed to be lenient with recently expired tickets when headways are long. Or the validation machines should stamp the ticket with 45 minutes after the next scheduled departure.) Also, if all the cop does is make you buy a ticket if caught, what's the incentive to buy a ticket in advance? Just get on and ride -- if you're lucky, you'll be in the clear, and if you're unlucky, you'll be told to buy a ticket.
Yeah, but...
they are *supposed* to be one way tickets.
Apparently there was plenty of time for you to make your one way journey, and then perhaps after getting off, visitng a donut shop or something, gettig a Dr. Pepper (diet), you could buy another ticket, validate it and ride back into the city.
: ) Elias
Normally, a one-way ticket is valid for continuous travel without leaving the system, even if the start and end points happen to be the same. There's no reason someone who travels from the beginning of the line to the end and only then realizes he left his wallet at home should have to pay a second fare just to get back. After all, he didn't actually go anywhere -- he never left the system.
"Normally, a one-way ticket is valid for continuous travel without leaving the system, even if the start and end points happen to be the same. There's no reason someone who travels from the beginning of the line to the end and only then realizes he left his wallet at home should have to pay a second fare just to get back. After all, he didn't actually go anywhere -- he never left the system."
That's up to the policy set forth by system management.
As discussed in the "dead ends" thread, you can't take the PATH to Newark and back on 1 fare. You would also need a very sympathetic conductor to do a round trip on one fare on a commuter railroad.
As discussed in the "dead ends" thread, you can't take the PATH to Newark and back on 1 fare.
Because the outbound PATH stations at Harrison and Newark are outside fare control. In other words, it's an artifact of how fare control happens to be set up. IINM, the entire NCS is within fare control.
You would also need a very sympathetic conductor to do a round trip on one fare on a commuter railroad.
Commuter railroads charge by distance. There is no single fare for a one-way ride.
"Because the outbound PATH stations at Harrison and Newark are outside fare control."
The good thing about Harrison is that on your way to Newark, you can get off at Harrison, walk around and go to Wendy's or Quick Chek, and then continue on to Newark without paying an additional fare.
No, a single trip is good for 1 trip, a round trip is ggod for just that. to prevent blatent mis-use tickets are imprinted with the mchine number and the station purchased at.
Day passes are printed with same and the midnight expiration.
I lost all interest in Newark when they ditched the PCC's. But even if they were still running, nonsense like that would be reason enough to my mind to avoid it entirely. I'm sure they won't miss the railfanners who occasionally ride, but if I were to expand our business, a Newark branch is off the table now. I agree wholeheartedly though that the enforcement scheme in place is beyond extreme. Fare beaters usually don't buy a ticket AT ALL ...
Maybe someone has been reading the comments here, or maybe you just missed seeing some things. When Marty, Fred, and I rode this past Sunday, there were schedules posted upstairs near the machines and schedules available on the platform at Newark Penn Station, and there were schedules posted at the Grove Street station as well. When you purchase your ticket from the machine, it also clearly states that you are purchasing a one-way ticket (indeed, you can't buy a round-trip ticket, you must purchase two one-way tickets). Further, the validation stamp is coded with the identity of the station where you validated the ticket, thereby making it quite obvious to the fare inspectors if you are trying to make a round trip without paying the return fare. AND, the ticket is imprinted "OW ADULT", indicating that it is for a One Way Adult fare.
What's the problem?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Adults have only one way to go?
Adults have only one way to go?
Yeah, ain't that the pits. They won't let me be a 10 year old again!
Bah!
>>> When you purchase your ticket from the machine, it also clearly states that you are purchasing a one-way ticket (indeed, you can't buy a round-trip ticket, you must purchase two one-way tickets). <<<
When you explain it like that, the attempt to return on one ticket is fare beating, and the short expiration times, as long as they are long enough to cover waiting time and one way travel are sufficient. The real problem is that this deflates the sense of righteous indignation expressed when the fare inspector tries to enforce the rules.
Tom
Amen, man!! I share your feelings.
The MTA here has the good sense not to put ureasonable expriation time on fare tickets - one-trip/round trip tickets expire at midnight of the day of purchase, and service usually ends around midnight. On baseball/football nights expiration time is extended to 1:00 AM or later - the ticket machines (German made, rarely fail and there are always 3 machines at every stop) can be remote set for things like night ball games.
Hello-
I am searching for the subway or rail maps that shows the route(s) from Brooklyn to Jersey City NJ in the 1935-40 timeframe. I am sure that there was a stop at 26 Exchange Place in Jersey City. I am not familiar enough with the different subway and rail lines to find it in the historical records at nycsubway.org files.
Additionally I am searching for photos of the 26 Exchange Place building that housed the train/subway station and housed a company on which I am doing research. This building do longer exists.
Help on either one of these matters would be appreciated.
Gordon
I believe you are looking for two disparate subjects. NO single routing linked Btooklyn to Jersey City that I am aware of.
One would have taken some subway route from (wherever) in Bklyn to what is now "ground zero" where Hudson Terminal of the then H & M was. That rr would then take you to Jersey. Look at the PATH pages here.
>>http://www.nycsubway.org/us/path/<<
You're referring to the old Hudson & Manhattan Railway (today's current PATH system).
Also, any Brooklyn to NJ routes would have been float-barge operations as Brooklyn and New Jersey were never connected by a rail tunnel.
Check Tom Flagg's 'New York Harbor Railroads in Color, Vol 1" (I believe it is available from Sunrise Press). Vol. 2 just came out a few weeks ago. Very impressive work.
When I got to the station saturday morning the middle track was roped off with yellow caution tape and a big massive car was there. Any idea what was going on?
This week's New York Observer has long story by Greg Sargent on the beginning of construction on Water Tunnel No. 3 in midtown and lower Manhattan, and the expected affect it will have on bringing out the NIMBYs in the areas where the connecting shafts will be built.
Two of the areas mentioned are near Second Avenue at 38th and 54th streets, and in at least the latter case, the potential protestors are already starting to mobilize:
Although the construction of shafts in Manhattan is several years off, that may only give opponents more time to organize. And there already is a bit of grumbling on East 54th Street, where it’s slowly dawning on residents that a disruption is in the works.
"I can’t believe they would screw up the neighborhood like that," said Sara Polito, a banker who has an apartment on the block. "If it’s that deep, I would be worried about the structural integrity of the buildings. It’s a very residential block, and there are a lot of tall apartments."
What this has to do with the Second Ave. subway is, the MTA proposal for a full-length route along the avenue would include a stop at 53rd for transfer to the E, V and 6 trains at Lexington. And even with a deep-bore tunnel, there will still have to be open entrances at all the station areas, including one block from Ms. Polito's building.
Remember, this is for a water tunnel, which will only have a handful of drill sites in Manhattan and which is more important to the city than the Second Ave. subway. No Tunnel No. 3 and if either Tunnel 1 or 2 ever goes down, no water for a lot of homes in the city. Not that it will stop some people from filing suits (at least that's what Sergant seems to think will happen).
If the NIMBYs can get this project delayed and/or detoured, then there's no way in the world they're ever going to let subway construction, with far more openings to the street, become a reality on Second Avenue.
"Two of the areas mentioned are near Second Avenue at 38th and 54th streets, and in at least the latter case, the potential protestors are already starting to mobilize:
"
Consider the source of your story. Yes, a few people will protest. But NY has no choice in the matter. Either this water tunnel gets dug, or eventually you get no water out of your faucet. The water tunnel will be built.
This is of very little consequence to the big picture. The water dept. will provide outlets for venting, and the Daily News will publish a few stories about the crybabies, and that' will be it.
"What this has to do with the Second Ave. subway is, the MTA proposal for a full-length route along the avenue would include a stop at 53rd for transfer to the E, V and 6 trains at Lexington. And even with a deep-bore tunnel, there will still have to be open entrances at all the station areas, including one block from Ms. Polito's building."
So what? You're assigning far more impprtance to this than it deserves. In the first place, the first phase of Second Av construction will not affect anyone below 63rd Street (soall of this is irrelevant right now), and the second phase won't happen for some time.
"If the NIMBYs can get this project delayed and/or detoured, then there's no way in the world they're ever going to let subway construction, with far more openings to the street, become a reality on Second Avenue. "
But they won't get it detoured and they're not going to stop it. They will get concessions and pacifiers to suck on (and their buildings will be "underpinned" as needed.
When the subway comes through, Mds. Polito, an obviously selfish, shortsighted and ignorant woman, will yell once again, and once again most of the residents in the area will not support her - and she'll end up with another pacifier to suck on. This may even take the form of being appoointed to a local; advisory group to the water department (eg a true buy-off). If she's a good enough negotiator, and makes enough noise, she'll get a bigger pacifier, with a lollipop (cherry-red) to go with it.
There are pockets of people who don't like change. They do not represent the neighborhood by a long shot (again, consider the source you're reading) - and they're entitled to vent. So let 'em vent.
You have more faith in the New York City judicial system than I do, Ron -- find the right judge (or vice-versa) and if any lawsuit ended up in their court the water tunnel project can get -- if not blocked completely -- tied up in knots for several years or at best, adjusted so that a more cumberson (and more costly) solution is put into effect.
While the Observer may have a bias towards the complaintants (though that's not what I took from the story), my point is that if the city can't get through one of its most vital projects without the potental of years of additional litigation, the odds that a Second Avenue subway could be built quickly after the MTA finally commits funds to it are pretty low (and although you're right that the first section of construction would be above 63rd, I'm sure there's a 'Ms. Polito' living around one of the potential station stop areas on the northern part of the avenue who would feel just as aggrieved about her/his area being disrupted for three years or so by the subway project and would be willing to go to court).
"You have more faith in the New York City judicial system than I do, Ron -- find the right judge (or vice-versa) and if any lawsuit ended up in their court the water tunnel project can get -- if not blocked completely -- tied up in knots for several years or at best, adjusted so that a more cumberson (and more costly) solution is put into effect. "
It's not faith in the court system, it's understanding of how it works.
NIMBYS are most often successful when they have political backing. For example, the N extension to La Guardia was blocked by city council people and state legislators with the clout to stop it. In contrast, AirTrain sailed through and construction continued even as a lawsuit proceeded.
The water tunnel is not going to be held up. There might be a few procedural or planning delays, but these will be hiccups in a very long (20+ year) project. The most that will happen is that concessions will be handed out. I expect that much.
Drilling is set to begin on the LIRR 63rd Street Manhattan tunnel. I'm not seeing any signs of interference there.
In contrast, lower Manhattan is represented by Sheldon Silver, for whom the subway is a priority. If Sheldon says, "Go for it," a few homeowners in the 50's will not stop it. They will also not be able to unseat him, because 99% of his constituency wants it too.
They can sue, but even they do not have enough clout (or enough valid legal reasoning) to get an injunction that a Court of Appeals would uphold. And this kind of stuff gets expensive very quickly.
Judges are loath to interfere with infrastructure unless they have a good reason to, and a judge outside of the affected district has no authority to stop the project anyway. If you were to put a coal-burning power plant up at 2nd Av and 53rd Street, OK, a judge might have a problem with that. But before a judge had a problem with it, so would EPA, DEP and a dozen politicians.
"and a judge outside of the affected district has no authority to stop the project anyway"
I should clarify: yes you can try to shop around for the more than onme judge in an area; no you don't always get him/her, and he/she will not be likely to rule in your favor, even if he/she personally wants to, if there is a 99% chance that the ruling will be overturned on appeal.
As would be the case here.
Ron, I don't think the water tunnel itself would be blocked completely, but given the proper political clout on the side of the residents in the area -- as was the case with the 1971 battle over the Central Park playground and the 63rd St. connection -- they also can exert pressure on their behalf, if it were backup up by sympathetic stories in a more powerful outlet, like the N.Y. Times, or some other ambitious representative trying to make a name for him/herself. And while the people living on the side streets near Second Avenue aren't as rich as those on Park Ave. or near Central Park South, there may be a few folks there who know the right person in the right place to stall things out until the "proper" changes were made (for example, moving the 54th St. shaft five blocks north and next to the Queensboro bridge, where real estate values are lower, even if that bumped the project's cost up by $1 billion or so).
My point in posting the original link was: If a project like the water tunnel can't get built without having to traverse the NIMBY minefield, even if the MTA was to say next week, "We're going to take $3.5 billion of that $4.5 billion in FEMA money and build the first section of the Second Ave. subway," the time between the announcement and actual construction could be stretched out for years to come by people protesting and using court manuevers to avoid enduring three years or so worth of inconvienence, since this subway line isn't as vital to the city's continued well-being as the water tunnel is.
(It's not faith in the court system, it's understanding of how it works.)
I've been there, and am far more pessimistic. The courts work slowly, and delay is used as a tactic to stop things. Let's say the court case, with time for discovery, preperations, and two rounds of appeals, lasted six years. That's six years after six years of planning, before construction was to begin. Twelve years later, when the adequacy of the MTA's 20,000 page EIS is upheld by the court, would all the fiscal and political ducks still be in a row? Bear in mind that if you make any alterations to plans to appease someone, you have to do the process over, and THEN you can have ANOTHER lawsuit. I know how the environmental law firms work. They don't TRY to win. They try to delay.
(NIMBYS are most often successful when they have political backing.)
They only need political backing in one sense -- lack of political will to overcome their ability to stonewall in court. If there is no federal money involved, the legislature can simply pass a law over-riding the EIS process. For example, the NY State Legislature voided the EIS process for new public schools, and for the fourth lane on the LIE. It over-rode the process and the EIS to finally get a building up at Hunters Point. The intention is to over-ride the process at Ground Zero. THE PROCESS IS CANCELLED FOR ANYTHING REALLY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO OVERCOME IF A POWERFUL AND WEALTHY MINORITY OPPOSES. THAT'S WHO THE PROCESS IS FOR!
Remember, the state's politico's don't WANT to spend on infrastructure, and the Feds don't want to spend on infrastructure in New York State. Fight the LIRR to GCT, you might get a state law over-riding SEQR and the EIS process, eliminating environmental lawsuits. Something to benefit subway riders. PEOPLE'S RIGHTS MUST BE RESPECTED!
"I've been there, and am far more pessimistic. The courts work slowly, and delay is used as a tactic to stop things."
Yes, but a judge must first stop it. That isn't a trivial process. MTA is going to go ahead and drill the tunnel even as opponents are in court. The slow process will work against the NIMBYS, not against MTA.
"Let's say the court case, with time for discovery, preperations, and two rounds of appeals, lasted six years. That's six years after six years of planning, before construction was to begin."
No, it's six years after the TBM has already started to dig.
" Twelve years later, when the adequacy of the MTA's 20,000 page EIS is upheld by the court, would all the fiscal and political ducks still be in a row?"
Certainly, since the project will be nearing completion. Now, concessions will be evident. A station entrance moved across the street to appease Mr. Jones; the size of a transit plaza reduced, or a street provided with additional lights or traffic signals or whatever people have their arm out for.
"Bear in mind that if you make any alterations to plans to appease someone, you have to do the process over, and THEN you can have ANOTHER lawsuit. I know how the environmental law firms work. They don't TRY to win. They try to delay."
You're building a whole theory based on one assumption after another. The history of the 63rd Street line actually shows the opposite: if you remove the friscal factor (the fact that NY was broke), you would see that construction actually proceeded quite well. Now, since this was cut and cover, it presented difficulties. But the concessions were effective. For example, Central Park was restored boulder for boulder.
With a TBM at work, thingts will be easier.
(Yes, but a judge must first stop it. That isn't a trivial process. MTA is going to go ahead and drill the tunnel even as opponents are in court.)
The goal in these lawsuits is not to win the case, but to get an injunction. You judge-shop to get that injunction. Six years later, you lose the case, but it doesn't matter.
"The goal in these lawsuits is not to win the case, but to get an injunction."
Yes exactly. And even if they get one, the injunction must be upheld at the appellate level. It won't happen.
(Yes, but a judge must first stop it. That isn't a trivial process. MTA is going to go ahead and drill the tunnel even as opponents are in court.)
The goal in these lawsuits is not to win the case, but to get an injunction. You judge-shop to get that injunction. After all, is the the "potential" for undisclosed environmental harm if construction proceeds, that therefore must be decided on before it starts? Yes, if one of the 500 objections to the EIS is undisclosed construction impacts.
Six years later, you lose the case, but it doesn't matter.
"You judge-shop to get that injunction. After all, is the the "potential" for undisclosed environmental harm if construction proceeds, that therefore must be decided on before it starts?"
No, not necessarily. The judge must be convinced that those impacts are undisclosed and are significant.
" Yes, if one of the 500 objections to the EIS is undisclosed construction impacts."
If it was, we'd be hearing about it already.
("You judge-shop to get that injunction. After all, is the the "potential" for undisclosed environmental harm if construction proceeds, that therefore must be decided on before it starts?" No, not necessarily. The judge must be convinced that those impacts are undisclosed and are significant.)
Wrong. The judge must merely be opposed to the project, and rule that there is a POSSIBILITY that some undisclosed impacts MIGHT exist. Therefore, the ruling typically says, the lawsuit needs to be completed, and a decision reached, BEFORE the construction is allowed to proceed. I'm telling you this is how the game is played. That's why when there is something that REALLY matters to people that REALLY matter, special rules are put in place exempting something from the environmental process -- even if an EIS is actually done -- to get around the possibility of endless delays by the courts.
(" Yes, if one of the 500 objections to the EIS is undisclosed construction impacts." If it was, we'd be hearing about it already.)
Maybe the potential objectors fear a legislative over-ride, or maybe they are biding their time. Remember, lawsuits are expensive, so only wealthy people get to play the NIMBY game at this level. When a group is formed with some "environmental" sounding name, backed by money from wealthy individuals, you'll know what's going on. If this was the West Side or Soho, it would be happening already.
Let's say that I have state support for building an elevated Second Avenue Subway that would also create a new Second Avenue transitway for the M15. This subway would go all the way to Co-op City via AMTRAK right-of-way in the Bronx and Second Avenue in Manhattan. Let's say that all of the property owners and tenants fight me from 96 Street to 23 Street. They pool and get a good legal team.
1) Do I get the EIS process thrown out before I announce the project or after I build a public coalition from the non-suing areas?
2) Would it be cheaper just to throw $25,000 at each property owner than to fight the case?
3) Let's say that they say they will go away if I build the line underground. Is there a way to impose an additional local tax for Clean Air Act non-attainment areas to raise money for the train? How about raising registration fees for private vehicles and scaling them by a certain standard? Could that be done and then given to a private firm?
4) How could I use the Feds in this scenario?
5) What kind of costs would one see fighting a case like that?
(1) Do I get the EIS process thrown out before I announce the project or after I build a public coalition from the non-suing
areas?)
After you do a good EIS, with the same act of legislation used to approve the project.
(2) Would it be cheaper just to throw $25,000 at each property owner than to fight the case? )
Sometimes "environmentalists" sue in the hopes of getting paid. That's less likely to be true on the Upper East Side, more likely to be true in Greenwich Village. Lots of people got paid for the Big Dig. That's part of the financial disaster up there.
(3) Let's say that they say they will go away if I build the line underground. Is there a way to impose an additional local tax for
Clean Air Act non-attainment areas to raise money for the train? How about raising registration fees for private vehicles and scaling them by a certain standard? Could that be done and then given to a private firm?)
If not sure, but I think the property owners involved have to agree to a special assessment in a vote. That won't make the NIMBY's happy, however.
(4) How could I use the Feds in this scenario? )
I'm afraid its the NIMBYs that can use the Feds. The state legislature can over-ride SEQR, but you'd still have a NEPA EIS to get federal funds, and the NIMBYs can sue in federal court alleging some process violation. Westway was a federal case.
(5) What kind of costs would one see fighting a case like that?)
The big cost is delay. As Richard Lipsky, who specializes in keeping new supermarkets out of low income NYC neighborhoods using money from existing supermarkets, you can make something uneconomic just by screwing things up.
In the case I was involved with, it was about 1/8 my time, 1/16 my boss's time, various City Planning support, and a couple of lawyers from Corp. Council for a couple of years. Those cases didn't go on very long -- there was no appeal. You have to remember, there are big gaps of time with no work, because the strategy is delay, so the NIMBYs will say they need nine months to prepare materials, then nine months to respond to the MTA's response, etc.
"And while the people living on the side streets near Second Avenue aren't as rich as those on Park Ave. or near Central Park South, there may be a few folks there who know the right person in the right place to stall things out until the "proper" changes were made (for example, moving the 54th St. shaft five blocks north and next to the Queensboro bridge, where real estate values are lower, even if that bumped the project's cost up by $1 billion or so)."
A lot of that has already been taken into account. The 63rd Street line is not really a valid example, because people were aware the crosstown line could have come across on any number of streets, and the Second Av subway is not going to be built on Third Av.
Will there be additional changes made (how a stairwell should face; the type of headhouse used; which intersection corner should have a stairwell etc.)? Sure; that's OK. No, it i not going to change the price by a billion dollars.
In any event, the first segment is from 125-63, and nobody below 63rd is affected. Capital funding schemes will limit construction to that segment first, so this whole discussion doesn't mean anything yet - and won't for several years.
"My point in posting the original link was: If a project like the water tunnel can't get built without having to traverse the NIMBY minefield,..."
You are comparing apples and oranges.
I have been involved with parts of Tunnel no. 3. I posted some pictures (although I did not take them) of the inside of the tunnel.
The tunnel has entropy on its side. It is not just a NYCDEP project, but the NYSEPA and USEPA are involved. It is a massive project backed by dire necessity. No politician of any importance would side against the tunnel. If another one of those ball valves seizes up in Van Cortland, and they can't get a tunnel back, and people don't have water pressure because you only have one of two tunnels, how would you like to be the politician that helped Mr. Nobody NIMBY Tunnel No. 3?
That's just an example. In reality, failure would not occur like that.
On the other hand, the Second Avenue Subway (SAS) is something politicians tend to shy away from. Building the SAS is fighting entropy. Its fighting politicians to make the funds available. Its fighting the public perception (outside of the Upper East Side) that the line is not necessary.
Conversely, you have a large population in the area clamoring for its construction. It is likely that a contingency of YIMBYs might mobilize to fight the NIMBYs. Yes, it is depressing that Mr. Nobody wants to fight something as vital as the water tunnel, but there are lots of depressing things in this world. Things still get done.
Anyway, construction won't even begin in his neighbourhood. Construction will start at East 63rd and work its way North.
MATT-2AV
As I said, the water tunnel would be unlikely to be canceled, but given the proper NIMBY-sympathetic judge, helpful media outlet(s) or available ambitous politican(s) trying to make a name for themselves as the champion of a specific area's constituency against The Powers That Be, the planned shaft locations could get the shaft and end up relocated to places with less NIMBY clout, but at a cost of added dollars to the project.
The fact that Water Tunne No. 3 is a 32-year-old effort certainly helps its chances of going ahead unobstructed, since too much has been invested already to cut it off with a major section unfinished. But that apparently won't make it immune from at least some NIMBY legal challenges to get things adjusted to their liking. And if those efforts are in any way successful, you can safely assume that the prospects for any quick construction of the Second Ave. subway if and when funds are approved would be remote at best. That was the point of my original post.
(And if those efforts are in any way successful, you can safely assume that the prospects for any quick construction of the Second Ave. subway if and when funds are approved would be remote at best. That was the point of my original post. )
I'd actually be optimistic that if federal funding is provided, the three stations at 72nd, 86th, and 96th will be built and open, with the rest deferred. With those three stations, conditions on the Lex would probably be no worse -- and no better -- than today, even with the LIRR to GCT. And that's the game -- keep NYC as bad as possible without driving away people and businesses, so they'll keep paying taxes.
Still, I think you're looking too deeply into what Mr. Nobody said to the Observer.
Also, don't forget that many of these Environmental projects are driven by consent order. That means a federal or state judge has irrevocably ordered the responsible agency to construct.
I cannot speak about Tunnel No. 3 on this matter, but the $2 Billion NYCDEP project I worked on for the past three years in Greenpoint was driven by consent decree. There was vigorous NIMBY objection to start, but too bad. Yes, some concessions were made to quell the uprising, mostly for Giuliani's benefit, but The System argued that the good of the whole East River outweighed the good of one specific neighbourhood in Brooklyn. And this time, The System won.
MATT-2AV
The system might be able to roll over NIMBYs on Second Ave. or in other parts of midtown and lower Manhattan as well, but in general, Manhattanites between Canal and 122nd St. on the west side and 14th and 96th on the east side tend to have the best connections when it comes to turning their NIMBYism into political clout (the PATH-Christopher Street stairway project protest being the most recent example -- though I think Congressman Jerald Nadler could have blocked a subway entrance all by himself without having to have all those other people there).
If for some bizzare reason the MTA got in into their heads to four-track the G line between Court Street and Court Square I have no doubt that in terms of NIMBYism, it would be far easier to get construction past protestors in the neighborhoods that line would run through than it would to fight the NIMBYs in the vicinity of Second Ave., especially in the areas where townhouses along side streets carry high-prices and attract people with significant influence. The project might get through, but the odds are the people there have a better idea how to throw metal spikes into the middle of the road to, if not stop, then significantly slow down the project. They won't stop Water Tunnel No. 3 because of how far it's come, but IMHO, similar actions could thrwart any future Second Ave. construction by delaying it to the point that required paperwork has to be redone or costs go well past projections.
I think a good preview of what could happen (aside from any wster tunnel shaft legal fights) will come in the next few years if work actually begins on the LIRR East Side Access project. At least one shaft, and probably two, will have to go in someplace between where the existing tunnel on 63rd St. ends and where the new access area at Grand Central begins -- odds are one of those shafts will have to be on, or very close to Park Avenue between 46th and 63rd Sts. While the area is nowhere near as residential as it was 40 years ago, I can still see a fight developing over that disruption. Hopefully, if it comes, the MTA will be able to roll over the protests in the courts, and set some sort of president for fighting any future Second Ave. NIMBY protests, but as I said, given the significant pro-NIMBY presence in the New York civil court system, I have my dobuts...
The 2003 New York City Subways Calendar is now ready for mail order. If you wish to purchase the mail order route, please click on Bill Newkirk above and e-mail me your request. Please leave your e-mail address so I can e-mail you back instructions.
The Transit Museum gift shops in Grand Central and Times Square now has them.
The choice is yours. Any questions please e-mail me.
Thank you,
Bill Mangahas
Newkirk Images
The war is over, the politicos have won.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=55621&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/17/2002
(no subscription or other silliness required)
Now it's just a matter of the press noticing that there are NO TRACKS to the Bruno train station. Just another minor "bump" in the road.
"An agreement would mean the opening of the brand new train station, which currently sits empty largely because of an impasse over the lease."
and also because of a lack of trains, and tracks....
MINOR point ... heh.
I guess they don't want MTA up here after all......'AMTRAK=GIVE UP THE EMPIRE LINE.... PLEASE!!!''
TOLD ya it was nothing more than a butt-covering shakedown. If they REALLY meant all they've been gassing off, then the Meatball would be running at least to Schenectady and there'd be a "racetrack special" from GCT ... you're from around here, you know what ends up running the CDTA, all the names are familiar defeated ex-politicians from just one party and just one county. :)
Actually, "someone" was trying to extract budget overruns from AMTRAK and it failed. AMTRAK is paying 25 cents per square foot. They are asking for $17 from everyone else. That $50,000 will make a HUGE dent in the $750,000 operating cost, no?
AMTRAK caved? Nah. After all, that's the maintenance cost of the old station. NYS now look like bullies shaking down a kid with no money, except that AMTRAK has gotten into a new building that required ZERO dollars from them to build for PEANUTS on the dollar. As SelkirkTMO would say: AMTRAK squeezed their cheeks and Bruno and friends, while feeling good about their "victory", realized that they screwed themselves.
25 cents
Where you get this number? I'd be interested if this was true. They should make sure everybody knew Amtrak got a great deal.
AEM7
It's true ... backtrack to the "Amtrak Rensselaer deal struck" thread, visit the Times Union story, read all about it. Who'da thunk it? David Gunn made monkeys of our most powerful gasbags!
Heh. Rarely do I appreciate words in my mouth, but gotta admit, those are GOOD ones. :)
So, kids ... are we impressed with GUNN yet? Heh.
No problem - they could always run Bus Rapid Transit :P
The way things have been going with CDTA lately, I doubt they could operate a door. But yeah, you'd THINK there'd be a bus to the train station. And there are a few here and there. I'm going to post the latest once I get back tot he top of the list after reading, but the story has ended and Amtrak *is* moving in. I'll point to the articles soon.
Does the W train REALLY serve Astoria riders as a time saver via Broadway Express?? The reason I ask is because whenever I am on a W northbound in the PM rush, it always seems to be delayed by Q's in front of it obviously waiting to turn around at 57 St. Meanwhile, the locals just whizz by!!!!! I wonder if the W is a time saver for Queens riders in the morning??/ Do people that work South of 14 St wait for a W express to 14 St then change to the local or do they just get on whatever comes?? Tony Leong
i dont think it really matters anymore cause starting on 9/8 the N and W are gonna flip meaning that the W is gonna go to Astoria 24/7 via bridge weekdays,via tunnel late nights and weekends while the N does what the W currently does which is to Astoria weekdays only,to 36 St late nights only,to Pacific St weekends. its better this way since the W will be the only train going to CI.that way people wont need to transfer from a train that doesnt go to CI to the one that does,they'll already have thier direct service to CI.
It's a time saver in that service is (approximately) twice as frequent to Astoria as it was when only the N went there. The express run itself only saves a few minutes, and anyone at 14th who passes up an N in favor of a wait of indeterminate duration to bypass two stops is being silly. (At Canal it's kind of hard to wait for whichever comes first, since the express and local are on different platforms. I'd wait on the express platform and take whatever happened to come first, changing at 34th if it was a Q.)
I don't think we've answered the question.
In theory, switching the W over to the local between 34th and 42nd Street should not interfere with the Q's turning at 57th Street. I've played the Train Simulator current BMT territory and that's been the case. However, when things go wrong, that's another story.
I think it's 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another. If you run the W up and down via the Bway Local switching it in and out at Prince Street, you run the risk of jamming up both the express and locals. There is just so much traffic coming on and off the bridge, the current service configeration probably works the best.
If you got a W sitting on the Express track waiting for a local to clear Prince Street, you are accomplishing the same thing at 34th Street.
The delays on the W at 34th are not because of the Q (unless something is very wrong). They're because of the merge with the N/R. I assume the merge there is done based on the schedule, which means sometimes a W is delayed for an N/R and sometimes an N/R is delayed for a W. (If you want to be sure you're on the first train out of 34th, ride in the front car and read the homeball.)
The W has to merge into the local track somewhere -- whether it's between 34th and 42nd or between Canal and Prince, the delays are the same.
I agree - but traffic will bunch up worse between Canal & Prince heading northbound because of the traffic coming off the bridge which is already bunched together.
At you do it between 34th and 42nd - at least things have an opportunity to open up a little.
Heading southbound, if there is no Q at 42nd Street, you can slide the W right in over to the express. If there is one there, you'll have to wait a little. If you wait until Prince, you have a good chance of forcing the Q to "break stride" waiting for the W to slide over.
i shot these pictures last nignt when car # 238 arrived !!
her sister comes in tonight wont miss that !!
here is more information as to how electric rail transit returs
to pasadena california like it once did back in the good old dayz!
SOUTH PASADENA - If the new railroad tracks, depots and power lines weren't evidence enough that the Gold Line is coming, then this weekend will bring further proof: the first trains will be delivered here.
South Pasadenans will awaken Saturday morning to a 90-foot-long train on a turnout track between Hawthorne Street and Railroad Alley. It will be delivered to Monterey Road and Pasadena Avenue starting at 1 a.m. Saturday.
From that intersection, the train will be guided to the nearby turnout, or siding. A second train will arrive on Monday, also slated for 1 a.m.
The streets will be closed to traffic both days until 7 a.m., said city Public Works Director Jim Van Winkle.
The overnight operations were scheduled so as not to block busy Monterey Road and Pasadena Avenue during the daytime hours of neighboring businesses, Van Winkle said. The City Council approved the arrangement, requested by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, at its Aug. 7 meeting.
The MTA will haul the trains on big-rig flatbed trucks from its rail maintenance yard in Hawthorne, said Nate Baguio, a spokesman for the Blue Line Construction Authority.
"The (trains) are delivered on exceptionally long and heavy trucks that straddle the tracks, to slide the cars down onto the rails," Van Winkle said in a report to the council.
"The truck needs 250 feet of straight track, with a strong roadway to support (it) and to provide space for the truck to maneuver into position," Van Winkle added. "Only one car can be unloaded per day (because) it takes four to six hours."
One neighbor who describes himself as an avid train buff nonetheless isn't thrilled about the overnight delivery. The arrangement with the MTA, which will operate the Gold Line, and the city was lumped in with routine matters on the Aug. 7 council agenda, noted 26-year Hawthorne Street resident Tom Biese.
"Why do you think the City Council can waive my rights to peace and quiet?" he asked in an e-mail this week to the council and city manager.
Delivery hours shouldn't have been scheduled for the middle of the night when people are trying to sleep, and nearby residents should have been notified of the proposal before the council meeting so they could have voiced their concerns, Biesek argued.
Van Winkle's report described the process as noisy, creating "metallic banging and scraping noises" as trains are unloaded.
Baguio said the Construction Authority sent 1,200 notices to South Pasadena addresses on its mailing list, and passed out fliers to all homes and businesses within a 500-foot radius of the train delivery spot.
The Construction Authority also ran two newspaper ads and posted the notice on its Web site, Baguio said.
All of those, however, occurred after the council had approved the arrangement with the MTA.
"The notice (was mailed and delivered) on Aug. 9. This is happening on the 17th," Baguio said. "I certainly don't think the Construction Authority has been inconsiderate in any way."
The trains will be stored on the siding which, according to old Santa Fe Railroad lore, is named "Olga" while the MTA conducts months of tests on its signals, tracks, trains and assorted rail equipment, Baguio said. The siding, adjacent to Railroad Alley, is 400 feet long.
The future Gold Line tracks were long used by Santa Fe freight trains and by Amtrak, but the right-of-way has been dormant since 1994.
"On the main line railroads, they had a name for every location in the system transcontinentally," explained John Heller, a member of the Electric Railway Historical Association.
"So if a dispatcher in Omaha said: `We need to deliver a boxcar to the (old Cawston) Ostrich Farm,' then Olga was the place," said Heller, a South Pasadena architect. "There was a huge black and white railroad sign that said `Olga."'
The trains are 10 feet, 10 inches tall and 8 feet, 9 inches wide. Each light rail vehicle costs $2.3 million, weighs 49 tons and seats 76 passengers, Baguio said.
Meanwhile, overhead lines that will power Gold Line trains with 750 volts won't be electrified until contractors enclose both sides of the rail right-of-way with fencing, Baguio noted.
Until then, testing can be conducted with a special diesel vehicle that pushes the trains up and down the track, said MTA spokesman Marc Littman.
-
i shot these pictures last nignt when car # 238 arrived !!
her sister comes in tonight wont miss that !! # 239 !!
here is more information as to how electric rail transit returs
to pasadena california like it once did back in the good old dayz!
SOUTH PASADENA - If the new railroad tracks, depots and power lines weren't evidence enough that the Gold Line is coming, then this weekend will bring further proof: the first trains will be delivered here.
South Pasadenans will awaken Saturday morning to a 90-foot-long train on a turnout track between Hawthorne Street and Railroad Alley. It will be delivered to Monterey Road and Pasadena Avenue starting at 1 a.m. Saturday.
From that intersection, the train will be guided to the nearby turnout, or siding. A second train will arrive on Monday, also slated for 1 a.m.
The streets will be closed to traffic both days until 7 a.m., said city Public Works Director Jim Van Winkle.
The overnight operations were scheduled so as not to block busy Monterey Road and Pasadena Avenue during the daytime hours of neighboring businesses, Van Winkle said. The City Council approved the arrangement, requested by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, at its Aug. 7 meeting.
The MTA will haul the trains on big-rig flatbed trucks from its rail maintenance yard in Hawthorne, said Nate Baguio, a spokesman for the Blue Line Construction Authority.
"The (trains) are delivered on exceptionally long and heavy trucks that straddle the tracks, to slide the cars down onto the rails," Van Winkle said in a report to the council.
"The truck needs 250 feet of straight track, with a strong roadway to support (it) and to provide space for the truck to maneuver into position," Van Winkle added. "Only one car can be unloaded per day (because) it takes four to six hours."
One neighbor who describes himself as an avid train buff nonetheless isn't thrilled about the overnight delivery. The arrangement with the MTA, which will operate the Gold Line, and the city was lumped in with routine matters on the Aug. 7 council agenda, noted 26-year Hawthorne Street resident Tom Biese.
"Why do you think the City Council can waive my rights to peace and quiet?" he asked in an e-mail this week to the council and city manager.
Delivery hours shouldn't have been scheduled for the middle of the night when people are trying to sleep, and nearby residents should have been notified of the proposal before the council meeting so they could have voiced their concerns, Biesek argued.
Van Winkle's report described the process as noisy, creating "metallic banging and scraping noises" as trains are unloaded.
Baguio said the Construction Authority sent 1,200 notices to South Pasadena addresses on its mailing list, and passed out fliers to all homes and businesses within a 500-foot radius of the train delivery spot.
The Construction Authority also ran two newspaper ads and posted the notice on its Web site, Baguio said.
All of those, however, occurred after the council had approved the arrangement with the MTA.
"The notice (was mailed and delivered) on Aug. 9. This is happening on the 17th," Baguio said. "I certainly don't think the Construction Authority has been inconsiderate in any way."
The trains will be stored on the siding which, according to old Santa Fe Railroad lore, is named "Olga" while the MTA conducts months of tests on its signals, tracks, trains and assorted rail equipment, Baguio said. The siding, adjacent to Railroad Alley, is 400 feet long.
The future Gold Line tracks were long used by Santa Fe freight trains and by Amtrak, but the right-of-way has been dormant since 1994.
"On the main line railroads, they had a name for every location in the system transcontinentally," explained John Heller, a member of the Electric Railway Historical Association.
"So if a dispatcher in Omaha said: `We need to deliver a boxcar to the (old Cawston) Ostrich Farm,' then Olga was the place," said Heller, a South Pasadena architect. "There was a huge black and white railroad sign that said `Olga."'
The trains are 10 feet, 10 inches tall and 8 feet, 9 inches wide. Each light rail vehicle costs $2.3 million, weighs 49 tons and seats 76 passengers, Baguio said.
Meanwhile, overhead lines that will power Gold Line trains with 750 volts won't be electrified until contractors enclose both sides of the rail right-of-way with fencing, Baguio noted.
Until then, testing can be conducted with a special diesel vehicle that pushes the trains up and down the track, said MTA spokesman Marc Littman.
-
no response just because this was on da' west coast ???
......grouch ???......!
No response because most of us were SLEEPING at that hour! But thanks for posting anyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They look like Blue and Green line cars. How different are they?
they are called SIEMENS P 2000 ..
they sure are better than the specks below
the blue line uses .............
Technology: P865 model Light rail vehicle, articulated,
6-axle,double-ended, pantograph
powered (750V DC)
Manufacturer: Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo, Japan
Fleet: 54 vehicles, 100-153 series
Built: 1989-1990
Cost: $1,170,000 each
Length: 87'
Width: 8'-8 3/4"
Height: 11'6" (top of rail to roof); 23'5" (plus max
pantograph); 6'8" (Interior ceiling height)
Weight: 94,000 lbs.
Capacity: 150 seated; 230 max seated + standing + 2
wheelchairs
Speed: 55 mph max allowable; 35 mph street running
Acceleration: 0 to 55 mph in 45 seconds
Operation: Cars run in train lengths of two. Have been
increased to 3-car operation the fall of 2001-2002 .
they seem to be showing thier age at only 12 years old !!
i think the SIEMENS P 2000 are a much better lignt rail car !!
( it is also the opinion of the blue line yard master in long beach )
ca.................lol !
>>> They look like Blue and Green line cars. How different are they? <<<
It is not surprising that they look like the Green Line cars. They have been taken from the Green Line yard (Hawthorne) and over the past year, these Siemens P2000 cars have virtually replaced the older Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo cars on the Green Line (the Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo still rule the Blue Line).
Therefore this is not untried vehicle technology being introduced to the Gold Line. I do not understand what kind of testing they are going to do pushing these cars with diesel power except to check physical clearances.
Tom
that is the idea ....2 do track testing ......
car # 239 arrived tonight at south pasadena !! ( pasadena gold line ) saw da whole thing go down !!
even did some battery .......
"even did some battery" ...
Wow. Some railfoamers will do ANYTHING to get to that front window. Heh. Was "assault" included, or just "battery?" Inquiring mimes knead to bust chops, ya know. Heh.
actually the car looked like it was in service i got off some shotz of her doing that !! (& at night)
it can roll a short distance doing that i guess .....the dc power is a few months away .....
Well, L'cheim on your new trains. That "new train smell" changes after a few months. Heh. So what are the chances of you conning Rod Bernsen into an aerial photog session? Declare a sig alert over the yards, and you've got it, ma man ...
Salaam: Congratulations on being there to record and photograph this historic occasion. You managed to scoop the Los Angeles Times, which apparently didn't consider this event newsworthy.
well there was the pasadena star news ...............but i out shot everybody there ............
one shot made the local paper !! ......thankz can hardly wait until i get off when the electric testing begins !!!
lol !!!
To me, it would have been alot more noteworthy if it were PCC cars that were being delivered. I'm surprised at you Salaam, I thought VINTAGE equipment was your bag (like myself). These cars are brand new, it's like big deal...
>>> These cars are brand new, it's like big deal... <<<
Actually it is the line itself that is a big deal. Ironically it will compete with the Pasadena Freeway for commuters. The Pasadena Freeway was the first freeway in southern California, and the start of the end of the street cars. So this is a counter attack by rapid transit.
Tom
i wish the PE cars could run on da' gold line ......dream on ....!!
>>>>...museum pcc car or something like that !!!
the PE should have never been torn down for any reason!!
now sometime next year only go to union station ...
>>>man that is a big bummer !!!............rats !!
..........( no - lol ) ......!!
i am just glad 2 see something folks!! it beats the bus / driving !
Well that's it, I'm leaving on Monday, to go to Pittsburgh PA for college. From what I hear, there's no railfanning opportunities to be found aside from the Amtrak passing through. Serious bummer for someone like me who's been living in NYC since I was 3. Also means I'll be missing the upcoming fan trips unfortunately.
Anyone happen to know how often Amtrak passes thru there...unfortunately I'll probably end up skipping classes to watch the trains
Anyway, until next time....
-4thAvenueLocal
(whose handle is about to get obsolete)
Well that's it, I'm leaving on Monday, to go to Pittsburgh PA for college. From what I hear, there's no railfanning opportunities to be found aside from the Amtrak passing through.
Pittsburgh is the railfan capital of Pennsylvania, if not the world. Firstly, the ex-B&O mainline passes through there, as does the ex-PRR, and if you count abandoned crap, there's also the Western Maryland. Today both NS & CSX passes through there, regular runs include CSX intermodals that go the B&O route, lots of coal trains, and many more merchandizers. If you sit along the riverfront, you can see NS on one side and CSX on the other... and if you angle the lens right you can even get both trains in the picture. The mainlines are very very busy, probably only outnumbered by a limited number of places like NYC mainline (ex-Conrail) through upstate New York or the B&O in Ohio (beyond Willard, OH where all the traffic merges onto the B&O line). In Pittsburgh, absent any track being taken out of service, there must be in excess of 100 trains on every weekday, including six Amtraks (Three Rivers both ways, Capitol both ways, and Pennsylvanian both ways).
There's lots of trains out there. I wish I lived in such a railfan town. I was treated (spoiled) to the CSX mainline in Ohio last summer, and I've really missed being out there by the railroad...
AEM7
Do you like light rail sysytems? PAT runs their refurbished system
from downtown Pittsburgh to the South side. The Seimens-Duewag cars run on the 42S, 42L , & 52 lines. They are still talking about rebuilding the "Overbrook line", the old 47 series lines.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Chuck Greene
Whoa, I have to apologize to both of you then, I was unaware of the possibilities there.
Plus, The Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, AKA Arden is located in nearby Washington, PA.
Stop by their website at http://www.patrolley.org for more info and directions.
I'm not going to have a car, at most maybe a bike. Is it possible to get to the Trolley Museum by bike or public transport?
No... it's way out in the country off the interstate, a couple of miles north of Washington, PA. During the county fair there might be special buses though... the fairgrounds are right next to the museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They are not only talking about rebuilding the Overbrook line, but are also about halfway done with the rennovation. I believe it's scheduled to open in another year or two. Also, I have heard talk of ordering a new fleet of cars, but I may be wrong about this.
Yeah, I think Pittsburgh is awesome. Light Rail, freight, and passenger trains. And the scenery is beautiful. I've only been there once but I can't wait to go back. They also have a couple cool busways that go through tunnels in the mountain. And there are two incline railways I believe. You will have a fun time in college! I am stuck at a place that just has an NS branch line (~2 trains a day) and no passenger trains. But I will soon be free to live in NYC!
I was visiting a friend in Pittsburgh just last week. I didn't have much time to do any railfanning, but I did see the light rail system pass by me at one point. Make sure you take the incline up the mountain; you'll get a great view of the Pittsburgh skyline from there.
By the way, a man who operated a trolley for 33 years on PBS, Fred Rogers (of Mister Roger's Neighborhood), lives in Pittsburgh...don't be surprised if you bump into him at some point.
Enjoy the city...there is plenty to do there! -Nick
no response just because this was on da' west coast ???
......grouch ???......!
No response because most of us were SLEEPING at that hour! But thanks for posting anyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They look like Blue and Green line cars. How different are they?
they are called SIEMENS P 2000 ..
they sure are better than the specks below
the blue line uses .............
Technology: P865 model Light rail vehicle, articulated,
6-axle,double-ended, pantograph
powered (750V DC)
Manufacturer: Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo, Japan
Fleet: 54 vehicles, 100-153 series
Built: 1989-1990
Cost: $1,170,000 each
Length: 87'
Width: 8'-8 3/4"
Height: 11'6" (top of rail to roof); 23'5" (plus max
pantograph); 6'8" (Interior ceiling height)
Weight: 94,000 lbs.
Capacity: 150 seated; 230 max seated + standing + 2
wheelchairs
Speed: 55 mph max allowable; 35 mph street running
Acceleration: 0 to 55 mph in 45 seconds
Operation: Cars run in train lengths of two. Have been
increased to 3-car operation the fall of 2001-2002 .
they seem to be showing thier age at only 12 years old !!
i think the SIEMENS P 2000 are a much better lignt rail car !!
( it is also the opinion of the blue line yard master in long beach )
ca.................lol !
>>> They look like Blue and Green line cars. How different are they? <<<
It is not surprising that they look like the Green Line cars. They have been taken from the Green Line yard (Hawthorne) and over the past year, these Siemens P2000 cars have virtually replaced the older Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo cars on the Green Line (the Sumitomo-Nippon Sharyo still rule the Blue Line).
Therefore this is not untried vehicle technology being introduced to the Gold Line. I do not understand what kind of testing they are going to do pushing these cars with diesel power except to check physical clearances.
Tom
that is the idea ....2 do track testing ......
car # 239 arrived tonight at south pasadena !! ( pasadena gold line ) saw da whole thing go down !!
even did some battery .......
"even did some battery" ...
Wow. Some railfoamers will do ANYTHING to get to that front window. Heh. Was "assault" included, or just "battery?" Inquiring mimes knead to bust chops, ya know. Heh.
actually the car looked like it was in service i got off some shotz of her doing that !! (& at night)
it can roll a short distance doing that i guess .....the dc power is a few months away .....
Well, L'cheim on your new trains. That "new train smell" changes after a few months. Heh. So what are the chances of you conning Rod Bernsen into an aerial photog session? Declare a sig alert over the yards, and you've got it, ma man ...
With the opening of the JFK Airtrain by the end of the year, would it make sense to rename the A's that go to Lefferts the K?
Very simply - A = Airport. With two A services, there will be usual confusion with people on an A to Lefferts going to the airport and not making the change at Euclid or Rockaway Blvd.
The letter K is still the dark blue, correct, for 8th Avenue Service, which was left over from the mid-eighties?
If this was discussed in previous posts - sorry..........
I brought that up a while back, as the K is on the rollsigns from when the K used to run in the 80's on 8th Ave. I think it would be a good idea. I never liked the fact that there were two different A's going to two different places. Aside from adding signs at the various stations that it would effect, I think it would be relatively simple to implement, as there would be no change in the current service - they would not be adding or taking any trains away, all they would be doing is calling Lefferts "A"'s, "K"'s.
It would take a lot of confusion away from where any particular A is going, as all "K"'s would be going to Lefferts, and all A's would be going to Rockaway. Sure there would be less A's on 8th Ave, but not less trains, as the same amount of trains would still be running, it's just the some former A's would now be K's.
I brought that up a while back, as the K is on the rollsigns from when the K used to run in the 80's on 8th Ave.
I even stumbled into the sidesign codes a few days ago, they are there.
K - 8 AV/FULTON EXP - toLEFFERTS BLVD
K - 8 AV EXPRESS - FULTON ST LOCAL - toLEFFERTS BLVD
K - 8 AV/FULTON LCL - toLEFFERTS BLVD
Like a dumb@$$ I didn't write them down, but if memory serves me right they were close to the V to 2nd Ave. Someting like 380-something I think.
Found them. I had them stored on my PocketPC that's why I couldn't find them written down. :)
459, 460 and 461, the sidesign codes for the K to Lefferts.
By that logic, though, wouldn't the A train really have to be the R train, because it goes to the Rockaways? And the the D train should be the N, because it goes to Norwood?
>>By that logic, though, wouldn't the A train really have to be the R train, because it goes to the Rockaways?<<
Not really. That idea would be good for an advertisment catch phrase. Take the (A) to the (A)irport.
Bill "Newkirk"
You also J Train to Jamaica Center, and M Train to Metropolitian Ave-Middle Villiage. Wait a min...! What about swapping the E and C train terminals. C to Jamaica Center. Now u have J as Jamaica and C as Center. And E to Euclid Ave. This is really logical.
Personally I say do not rename the A to Lefferts Blvd, I say just make the C train go to Lefferts instead of Euclid. This way there is no confusion, and thus make the C a 24/7 operation, for late nights, since the A will be local, make the C (much like the current late night A to Lefferts operation) a shuttle from Euclid to Lefferts. But in reality none of this will ever happen, and things will stay as they are, unless the MTA really sees a need to do it (In doing this, for once they would actually do something that can MAKE SENSE!! But that would go against their normal thinking, which is doing things that make ABSOLUTELY no sense!!)
I think I like that solution (C is to Lefferts, even if it has to be a shuttle some times).
It's not very useful to tell a traveler to "take the A train for the airport, but make sure it's an A train to Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway, not an A train to Lefferts Blvd."
Eliminating the split terminal would make things a lot easier, especially after Airtrain is finished and the Port Authority begins promoting the new connection.
The problem would be with the people using the stops between Lefferts and Rockaway Ave., who would no dobut raise a stink that they used to have express service into Manhattan, but were now being served by a local (of course, riders in the Bronx on the 1 and 6 trains, and in southwest Brooklyn who use the R have had to endure the same problem for years, so the Lefferts riders could simply change trains at Rockaway Ave. to get the express. But they would still complain about it to the press and to their local politicians).
Well, maybe they could use a separate letter for Lefferts trains, or maybe they could get real funky and use an A with wings for trains that make an airport stop, but they might get in trouble with Socony/Mobil. :)
Yet another problem with the letter system of ID-ing trains, unless we incorporate some cyrillic.
Yet another problem with the letter system of ID-ing trains, unless we incorporate some cyrillic.
Or double letters...
(A) Far Rock -> (AF)
(A) Lefferts -> (AL)
<A> Rock Pk -> (AP)
Wow, double letters. What a great idea. Maybe they could use double letters for locals?
LOL.
Maybe they could use double letters for locals?
Or maybe they could admit that the express is just as slow and use double letters for that too!
A with wings- Not Mobil, but an actual gas brand named Flying A...all over the metro area up until the early 70's
Actually, 1967 was when Getty bought out Flying A and changed the station signs, though some signs did linger at abandoned stations for several years after that.
Foe some reason I thought Flying A was Mobil, maybe because I'm confusing the wings with old Pegasus.
"Flying A" was the "Tidewater Oil Company" ... here's a link to an old map of theirs:
http://icdweb.cc.purdue.edu/~cirillo/petro/flyinga.htm
And BTW -- the original Pegasus lives on in Dallas on top of the old Magnolia Oil Co. building, which was bought by Mobil in the 1930s and then became their company's logo.
ExxonMobil's headquarters is now about 10 miles north of the Magnolia/Mobil building in "scenic" Plano (just the place you'd expect the merged Standard Oil of New York and Standard Oil of New Jersey to move to), while the building itself kept the flying horse and is now a hotel. Mobil, meanwhile, revived Pegasus as a company symbol six years ago when they introduced their Speedpass program, and all the new electronic pumps get a flying horse to wave your transmitter at.
Creates more problems than it solves. The K/A would be identical in Manhattan & Brooklyn.
I don't think it creates any problems. There are plenty of duplicate services for long stretches (though this would certainly be the longest).
As I see it, it only makes things easier. It seems the only difficulty that might arise would be that an A train arriving at 207 might have to have it's roll sign changed to K for it's next trip.
With the R44's (or 46's or whatever they are) it can be difficult to figure out whether you're looking at a Far Rock or Lefferts train. The LED signs don't change all that quickly and you have to wait for it to scroll through 8AV EXP and FULTON EXP to find out whether it's Far Rock or Lefferts.
CG
>>Creates more problems than it solves. The K/A would be identical in Manhattan & Brooklyn<<
I wouldn't see it creating a problem. Not if there is a well saturated advertising campaign (car cards, flyers etc) telling riders that that the (K) is the old (A) to Lefferts. The TA has to make the public aware.
Bill "Newkirk"
the TA does make the public aware still the public are too dumb to read anything and never notice the changes,then they're confused and pissed off about this and that.you can trap the public in a very large room full of TA services changes with TA crews explaining whats going on and it still goes in one ear and out the other.that also includes showing visuals of changes.
V TRain M20 bus,
See my post about putting that on the back of a Metrocard, unless they swear to buying tokens, they will be reminded every time they use a Metrocard.
It's time for something unique for advertising this kind of service change, and the back of a blank Metrocard is a place to start.
Bill "Newkirk"
like something like that is gonna fit on a metrocard,dont mean to be rude but i think that idea is kinda dumb
>>like something like that is gonna fit on a metrocard,dont mean to be rude but i think that idea is kinda dumb<<
It can be abbreviated and to the point. Just say (A) Lefferts = (K) Lefferts. Or something to that effect. Don't need a lot of text with small type.
Bill "Newkirk"
that REALLY WOULDNT help at all. no way in hell would that work.
Why?
cause people are so stubborn they couldnt read a service change if their life depended on it.that how stupid they are.
Wait a second.
Since when is there a (V) train? I commuted out of East 86th on the Lexington every day from summer of 1999 until summer of 2002, and I never heard anything about about a (V) train.
MATT-2AV
You must ride the R-142A's on the 6. Like you, most of them haven't heard of the V.
(Sorry, you asked for it.)
The R-142 computer voice never said anything about a V train, and the computer is always right. What the heck are you people talking about?
Wait a minute, these posts are on a computer and they're talking about the V train, so they should be right too.
DUDE!
Does that mean if I write a post on this computer saying that Subway Trains have started operation in Petropavlovsk Kamchatskiy (in Eastern Siberia, as if anyone cares), I mus be right?
thats because the 142's were put into service long before the V came along thats why they arent ever announced,the conductor has to do it him/herself.but it seems that finally the 142's are on the 5 and since they came after all the changes they actually announce the Q and W at 14st/Union Sq and the F and W at 59 St.
"this is 14st Union Sq.transfer is available to the 6, L, N,R,Q and W trains"
"this is 59 st.transfer is available to the 6, F, N,R and W trains"
forgot to add that it does so despite it not being shown on the elctronic strip maps.the strip maps on the R143's on the L do show the V and S before the shuttle ended on 12/16 and the Q and W at Union Sq.
He he ;)
MATT-2AV
i know the 142A's dont announce it at either 51 or Bleecker St but still,where have you been since 12/16/01? planet mars? even when not annonunced on those 142's you cant say you havnt seen any service change posters even a whole month before it started? now thats being in the twilight zone
>>that REALLY WOULDNT help at all. no way in hell would that work.<<
Wouldn't hurt to try. The idea is you can have a service change poster ripped down and not see it, but that Metrocard in your hand, you can't miss it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wouldn't hurt to try. The idea is you can have a service change poster ripped down and not see it, but that Metrocard in your hand, you can't miss it.
Because you need that space to tell some people how to even use the card. :)
And despite that you can see how no one looks at the back as half the people getting on a bus don't know how to put it in even though there are instructions on the back of the card as well as a label on the farebox.
Maybe the front side of the card (the side facing you when you swipe) has more promise for such things.
Are you always so ....closed minded? this is done on METRO CARDS ALL THE TIME ....!!!!It's just another was of putting out info to the public... gezzz>>>....styfull alreadies..huhh???
why?
Sorry, that "why" was meant for "V train"
Why expend the effort? The split A has worked for 46 years. Running a "K" train introduces a new route, with all the confusion and expense that entails, just for the small percentage who ride the past Rockaway Blvd.
That is my idea exactly, now will the suits at 130 Livingston take the hint. You don't need two (A) services, make one a (K).
Bill "Newkirk"
If the TA was real smart, and they did rename the Lefferts (A) the (K), they should advertise on the back of Metrocards sold along the (A) line saying the following:
Starting Jan. 1, 2003
The Lefferts Blvd (A) becomes the (K).
That date was made up.
Bill "Newkirk"
Since you liked my idea so much, any chance I get a free 2003 Calendar?
>>That is my idea exactly, now will the suits at 130 Livingston take the hint.<<
"Since you liked my idea so much, any chance I get a free 2003 Calendar?"
Uh......I believe that I said my idea and your was exact, not that I liked it so much.....Nice try ! LOL!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
"Starting Jan. 1, 2003
The Lefferts Blvd (A) becomes the (K).
That date was made up."
Why tell the patrons that the date of service change was fictitious?
MATT-2AV
>>Why tell the patrons that the date of service change was fictitious?<<
Because there is no real service change involving the (A) and (K). That was brief sample.
Bill "Newkirk"
A novel idea. I'd buy a Metrocard like that. I always love them better since they have those ads. Maybe they have bigger value?
No doubt I believe the K train should be reinstated. However, maybe a service pattern like this would work:
(A) Between 207 St and Far Rockaway via 8 Ave/Fulton Exp, Late Nites local.
(C) Between 168 St and Lefferts Blvd via 8 Ave/Fulton Local, Late Nites shuttle between Euclid and Lefferts.
(K) Between 205 St and Rockaway Park via 8 Ave/Fulton Exp, Late Nites between 34 St-Penn Station and Rockaway Park via 8 Ave/Fulton Exp.
Maybe this service pattern may work out, maybe not. A 205 to Rockaway Park service would be quite impressive. It would replace the A train as the longest route in the system. What do you guys think?
The C to Lefferts via the local will never work. You are taking away express service from Lefferts.
Leave the C as is - local from Euclid.
yeah thats what i keep saying,without extra cars its never gonna work and even with extra cars,they're gonna most likely use it for 10 car, C trains.
I have a similar Idea of renaming the Far Rockaway A train the H and sending it to 145 street and 207 street. Sadly I doubt the MTA's going to consider it. But hey it's at least worth an attempt
Since the GOH, the (A) line ran either R-38's or R-44's. Lately, I have been seeing mixing of R-38's and R-32's. Kinda reminds me of the old days when mixing of B division equipment was the norm.
Two weeks ago, I saw a solid train of M-K overhauled R-32's on the (A). Recently I saw two GE overhauled cars mixed with M-K overhauled R-32's on the (C). How long has this mixing going on ? Has anyone seen any R-38's on the (C) ?
Bill "Newkirk"
38's and 32's at least vaguely similar. Not QUITE as off the wall as some of the Smorgastrains. But now that you mention it, I saw them mixed on I *think* the F at Kissmoose when we'all came and irritated you and a few other friends. Now if they were to throw a couple of 40S and 46's and a pair of 68's into a consist with them, it'd be like old times. Last I recall though from my days, the 32's and 38's got along OK when necessary. Certainly better than 46's, 10's and 27/30's in the same banger. THAT was torture for the geese and the crew. :)
The R-46s can't m. u. with anything else. Different couplers, for one. Ditto for the R-44s.
There's always the wonderful world of adaptors and extreme cobbage. :)
But then again, I'd get in trouble for mentioning pipeage and angle cocks, so I be good. Heh.
OTOH it's easy to start rattling off car classes when borgaschmord (remember Mason Reeese's gaffe on that Underwood commercial?) trains were common on the IND/BMT.
Mason Reese will be your conductor today, watch the Dozing Cloors please ...
I actually saw him once with mom (or a pushy female manager) in a McDonald's just off Sunset Blvd. around 1973. She was stuffing Big Mac's in Mason's mouth -- gotta keep up that cute-fat look that was brining in the bucks, you know (were Rod Serling in charge of this story, mom would wake up the next morning weighing about 750 pounds herself, but unfortunately, she probably only padded her wallet from this little endeavor...)
I often wonder if that "borgaschmord" was planned or not. All I know is a couple of kids off camera lost it and busted out laughing at the end of that commercial.
Ever hear of a kid's book entitled "Homer Price"? The sheriff is always swapping syllables, almost speaking in anagrams.
Nah, spoonerisms are off limits to me until November of 2004. :)
I don't think I've ever seen R-32's and R-38's mixed in one consist, aside from the R-32GE's. But in response to your other question, there are lots of R-38's on the C -- I saw one train last night at Columbus Circle.
I think the mixing and matching on the A is fairly common. From reading my monthly ERA bulletins, there is always a blurb about a mixed R32/38 on the A or C.
I saw an R38 on the C about a month ago.
Anybody else see the MORE CHANGES poster? I spotted it last night at 168th.
Pretty straightforward. My only quibble is that it says that the W is replacing the N between 36th Street and Queensboro Plaza at night and on weekends. How many Manhattan passengers know where 36th Street is? It might have been clearer if the poster had referenced Manhattan and Queens explicitly.
I'm also a bit surprised the IRT changes a week later aren't mentioned, but perhaps that date isn't set in stone yet.
Are the handouts in the booths yet?
There has been one down at Whitehall since at least Thursday afternoon. there are handouts available, though I don't know where. I found one kicking around the crew room at Stillwell.
It looks like a few thousand posters went up in the past 24 hours, including a few at my home station. OTOH, I asked a number of S/A's for the brochure, and none had any clue what I was asking for. (One handed me a current F/V timetable, which I'll add to my collection.)
Yup, I saw my first poster at 'our' home station too ;-)
I don't know about you but they sent a post card to my house about it. Addressed to "Subway Customer". I can e-mail it to anyone who wants to see it.
Please send me a copy to italianguyinsi@aol.com
Thanks!
I'd like to see it.
I'd like it too.
I'd like to see it also
(idekine@yahoo.com)
thanks
At the risk of being a cliche - Me too.
I appreciate it.
Allan
irt1904@aol.com
How many Superliners can 1 P42 pull? I want to simulate that with my HO Scale Phase V P42. And How many can it pull with 2 P42's MUed?
Usually a P42 can haul more than 10 Superliners. As for 2 P42s, if we take a look at Auto Train, 2 P42s can haul 16 Superliners and 25 Autocarriers.
Chaohwa
You'll break the couplers on the model!
LOL!
The couplers will be broken.
Chaohwa
Chaohwa, did you catch that discussion about Taiwan Railways Cattle Cars? (See under Moo)
AEM7
I just read them. Having read some of the old posts at a Taiwanese BBS station, Taiwan Railway do have cars that carry cattle or pigs.
I stayed some of my childhood and adolescent time in Taipei. I never got a chance to see these kind of rail cars myself.
Chaohwa
How would you know??? I have metal couplers, and How do you think model freight train run??? Huh?? They wouldn't make couplers that were gonna break on a long haul.
A S-2 can haul as many superliners as you like. They won't go very fast, but it will haul them.
You match your engines to the load, ruling grade, and the speed that you want to attain.
Elias
Now that the archives are all online, wouldn't it be good if we could have a "one-click" query that took us back to Subtalk on a specific date? I think you can do that with the archive system, but you have to make many clicks and manually set the date...
The date field should default to something sensible rather than from Jan 1, 2002 and Jan 1, 2002.
AEM7
Flame-of-the-Month Club? ;-)
I wonder if it would be on topic if one of us went into the archives at a set time every day and made a summerical post of the topics we were discussing one, two, or three years ago on that date. {I would be more than happy to volunteer.}
After three long years, Hong Kong has finally finished the Tseung Kwan O Line~! Trains now run from the Po Lam district all the way to North Point, while the Kwun Tong Line goes from Central Kowloon's Yau Ma Tei district to Tiu Keng Leng in the southwest quadrant of the TKO district.
Oh, happy happy day~!
-J!
The riders on the Kwun Tong Line must be mightily pissed off at this.
How do you manage to keep up with transit developments in Hong Kong? LOL
AEM7
A survery conducted by one political party reveals that around 60% of people who normally travel to the HK ISland via Kwun Tong line plan to switch to other means of transport that are more direct (such as bus).
After three long years, Hong Kong has finally finished the Tseung Kwan O Line~!
No!
You don't asy?
And how long does it take to build a little line on Second Avenue?
Maybe we should contract the job out to the Chinese!
Elias
Well the TKL had been planned for quite some time (Some even said as long ago as 1988 it was already on the drawing board). In 1994 the then HK government (and it was still under British rule then) published the first Railway Development Strategy (RDS 1994) that put TKL into one of the target railway lines to be built.
BTW, the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC)'s mangerial staff still has sizeable number of British in it, so perhaps it is an issue of British efficiency?
MOO...so does All India Railways.
At least the All India Railways is like HK's rail syatem ... before 1982:). And many NY subway stations stack up pretty well with the Star Ferry Piers of HK (which dated from 1957 BTW). To get an idea of how the HK MTR system compares with NYC, the Central station in HK's MTR sys, which is one of the oldest stations in HK, is similar to the (former) WTC PATH station.
Remember the long march!! Another victory for the Proletariot. Never forget the hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) lost (executed) for another wonderful achievement of PLA success. China is 'two faced'...and the west just continues to support what goes on.
Hong Kong isn't part of China. It just went from being a British colony to being a Chinese colony.
Wrong!!!! HongKong is a Chinese possesion leased to the Brits for 99 Years!!! Lease over...game over. Taiwan/Formosa was a miserable island part of China retreated to by Chaing Kai Chek forces (forgive me of my miserable spelling) in 1949. UN eventually gave membership to 'Peoples Republic of China' and dumped Taiwan ROC. This is
Western Civilisation 103..aftermath of ArchDuke Ferdinands assisination. Funny how Portugal still maintains a Chinese colony.
PRC is once again demonstating military excersises off the coast of Taiwan as a 'show of stregnth.' They got the economic stregnth of HongKong and are building the worlds newest/largest rail infrastructure to support manufacturing faciities operated by impressed labor of millions in Tibet. New York City is home to these scum representing freedom at the United Nations. Before you make a statement about geography, do the homework you did not do in High School. WW2 history: nations and territories that became part of the 'Japanese Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere' were NOT liberated after the war for fear that the Western nations claiming rights would be forced out ie French IndoChina, British Burma and Dutch IndoChina, British Malaysia and Dutch Indonesia. This history is what our world is...forgive me of any technical mistakes.
Wrong!!!! HongKong is a Chinese possesion leased to the Brits for 99 Years!!!
It was 150 years. During such time, Secret Pirate Island was developed with western-style capitalism and that system has remained even though mainline China has taken over. There are still barriers to entry into Hong Kong because of this (otherwise all the Chinese would flee to prosperous Hong Kong).
This is Western Civilisation 103..aftermath of ArchDuke Ferdinands assisination.
Well, the Chinese revolution happened after World War I, but it really had little to do with it. The Communists took over largely due to Soviet support and the USSR owed its existance to WWI.
Britain's control of Hong Kong was a product of the First Opium War in 1839-42. This was the world's first drug war, and the anti-drug forces still lost.
Before you make a statement about geography, do the homework you did not do in High School.
I don't need to. This is the second time you tried to show off your geography skills and failed miserably. If you did learn from your homework in highschool, that only proves my point that most schools are nothing more than day prisons and cerebral laundromats.
[re: European colonies in Asia]
All of these colonies were liberated after the war if not immediately after. The only European power to control any part of the Pacific now is France which has New Caledonia and French Polynesia.
It was 150 years.
99 years. In fact, the reason is because the number "ninety-nine" when pronounced in Chinese, reads "long long time". Also, it is only New Territory and Kowloong that's leased. Hong Kong Island is permanent British Territory which Maggie Thatcher gave away.
You're the one who needs to do your home work, Oink.
Well, the Chinese revolution happened after World War I, but it really had little to do with it. The Communists took over largely due to Soviet support and the USSR owed its existance to WWI.
Had it not been for the WWI on the Pacific front, it is unlikely that the Chinese Revolution would have taken place. Or at least, this is a school of thought held by the majority of historians studying that field.
AEM7
If it was 99 years, then the period would have ended in 1951, as the treaty was signed in 1852. It had to have been 145 years.
Obviously, the treaty was not signed when you thought it was.
AEM7
The treaty of Nanking was signed in 1852 and included the cession of Hong Kong to Britain.
The New territories were acquired later, hence their name. This may have been in 1898, but why would England give up such a prosperous colony if only the lease of a small part was to end?
England is stupid. The United States is stupid too for giving up the Panama Canal.
The treaty of Nanking was signed in 1852 and included the cession of Hong Kong to Britain.
Right, and this was a colony. Permanent ownership.
The New territories were acquired later, hence their name. This may have been in 1898, but why would England give up such a prosperous colony if only the lease of a small part was to end?
Firstly, New Territories and Kowloon are the major parts of Hong Kong. It's like the suburbia. So if you owned Manhattan but suddenly Queens, Kings, Staten Island and Brooklyn were all taken over by hostile forces that hate you, do you think you'd keep Manhattan?
Secondly, Hong Kong Island has nothing on it. It has no source of water because it doesn't have any reseviors. It has no electricity generating facilities. Everything is piped from Kowloon. The Chinese had indicated prior to 1997 that they will not continue to provide those facilities to Hong Kong Island post 1997.
Thirdly, it is not practical to run a military operation out of Hong Kong Island, even for the British Navy. Stationing a Royal Navy fleet over there will far outweigh the benefits of having Hong Kong Island.
Thus the handover of Hong Kong to China is based on sound cost-benefit analysis.
AEM7
I was under the impression that Kowloon was also part of the 1852 treaty.
I was wrong. You didn't help in correcting me with your joke about the 99 years.
Also, I apologise to OnTheJuice about my comment on his being wrong twice. He was wrong only once.
I DO NOT apologize to the cerebral laundromats that I may have insulted with my post.
I was under the impression that Kowloon was also part of the 1852 treaty.
Kowloon probably was, I'm not clear on the details but I know that Kowloon is leased, and not given away, and that Kowloon's lease is due at the same time as NT's lease (perhaps due to an amendment when the 1898 treaty was signed). There was always a debate as to who Hong Kong should be "given back" to post 1997, because the government that leased it no longer exists...
I was wrong. You didn't help in correcting me with your joke about the 99 years.
It's not a joke. Ask anyone who speaks Hongkongese. I don't -- I happen to know that because I've known a few Hongkongese men.
I DO NOT apologize to the cerebral laundromats that I may have insulted with my post.
Huh? Oink! Oink!!
AEM7
The U.S. Department of State says...
"After the Chinese defeat in the First Opium War (1839-42), Hong Kong was ceded to Britain in 1842 under the Treaty of Nanking. Britain was granted a perpetual lease on the Kowloon Peninsula under the 1860 Convention of Beijing, which formally ended hostilities in the Second Opium War (1856-58). The United Kingdom, concerned that Hong Kong could not be defended unless surrounding areas were also under British control, executed a 99-year lease of the New Territories in 1898, significantly expanding the size of the Hong Kong colony."
For the clarification, here are the definition of Kowloon Peninsula and the New Territories (Including what was so-called New Kowloon):
Kowloon Peninsula --- Any land south of Boundary Street (hence the name). IIRC, the 1860 Peking Treaty also cease the Stonecutter Island.
New Territories --- Any land north of Boundary Street, south of Sham Chuen/Shenzhen River. And other 200-something outlying islands. However, Kowloon Walled City, which was the representation of Qing government, was excluded. But the Brits overthrown the exclusion because the representative had fled! Kowloon Walled City was a mess, it's finally demolished in 1990s and become a park. The nowadays Kowloon City is south of the original one, and was famous of the horrible plane landing.
It has 3 resevoirs, but they are so small that they cannot provide all of the water that HK Island needs. However, there are no elcetric generating facilities because the Hong Kong Electric Company has moved its power station to Lamma Island---a part of the N.T. To makes things worse, most of our fooc are made by Mainland China, so if you're British, what will you choose?
England is stupid.
You finally noticed. No wonder everyone wants out of here. The only people who still want to be in the British Empire are the majority of people in Northern Ireland, the Gibraltarians, the inhabitants of the Bahamas and the Falkland Islanders. Says something for the state of the UK.
WW1 on the Pacific Front??? There was little activity compared to the rest of the world in what would later be called 'The Pacific Theater of Operations.' The Russo-Japanese war of 1904 settled a lot until the end of WW2 when Russia decided to re-enter the fray and siezed northernmost Japanese islands (remember KAL-007 incident?)
China would be busy with warlords four fourty years. Best motion picture was 'The Last Emperor.' A few others I cannot recall names of like 'The SandCastles' with Steve McQueen. Remember Gunboat 'Panay' sunk by Japanese Air Forces in 1937? Chaing Kai Chek played 'switcheroo' from socialism to 'mono-democracy and the West shored him up with money till failure in 1949. In a court of law, the Kowloon deals today would be nullified considering the basis of the agreement...narcotics. 99 years...long, long time. Haven't seen an answer to my inquiry why the Portuguese territoties remain semi-independent but that situation can change at any time. CI peter
Macao was returned to China in 1999. I don't know if they just couldn't put up with it anymore, or there was a lease that expired. I also don't know how the Portugese got a colony there in the first place (Portugal was weak by the 19th century and wasn't a party in the Opium Wars), may have been earlier, back when Portugal had colonies-a-plenty in the Eastern Hemisphere.
Hey.....I'm not totally senile exposed to composite brake shoe dust...just could not remember Macao. Was not Macao split into several foreign economic zones like Berlin? So many readers might think this post is far off-topic BUT the potential for subway rapid transit is phenomenal...not to mention the Western marketabilities for food market products. Car Inspectors need to maintain the food balance: Skippy Creamy, Ritz Crackers and Diet Cherry Coke. CI peter
No, Macau has always a single entity for ages. Portuguese people had been in Macau from 1555 but officially it was a "lease" agreement: China (via the Ming and Qing dynasties) received an annual rent and remains the right of jurisdiction on the Chinese people on the territory. But progressively from the 18th century onwards Portuagal started to withold rents, and in 1888 signed with then Qing dynasty to acquire Macau permanently as a colony. Then in 1974 after the 25 April Revolution Portugal declared its wish to retutn Macau to China (whether it was the govt in Beijing or Taipei) and in 1987 Portugal signed the Sino-Portuguese Joint Declaration to return Macau to China in 1999.
BTW, there is now a plan to build a light rail system in Macau, and (maybe) connecting it to Zhuhai (next to Macau) or maybe as a feeder route to the Macau-Zhuhai-Guangzhou (Canton) rail line. Not too sure about the details, though.
Hong Kong Island is permanent British Territory which Maggie Thatcher gave away.
Yet another Thatcher blunder! To quote good old J.E. Powell O.E.:
"Those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad. We must be mad, literally mad."
And what a prize did Maggie give away!!! Look at the other end of the situation...what would have happened IF Hong Kong was NOT released? Malvinas was a mess...adressed swiftly...at great cost. IF GB said NO...we're keeping Hong Kong...China could have swept in with force just like the Japanese did to British Territories at the beginning of WW2. Maybe they wouldn't...maybe United Nations would step in (China is a major player now.) Look at Singapore today! China has been very careful about HK...squashed some dissadents BUT left most of the infrastructure intact and 'hands off the economics' because HK is a prize...with major access to the Western World. Hong Kong is truly Chinas 'Jewel in the Crown' and Taiwan/Formosa/ROC will be next. CI peter
And what a prize did Maggie give away!!!
Well, not as much of a prize as Atlee, Churchill, Eden or MacMillan gave away. In fact British Foreign Policy's been ****ed since the time of Balfour (whose uncle was called Bob).
China could have swept in with force just like the Japanese did to British Territories at the beginning of WW2.
Big difference. Now the UK has nukes. And Thatcher was such a nutter you never could be sure she wouldn't do something like that leading to WW3. Hahahahahahahaha! The UK could theoretically destroy the whole planet - BANG - serves the b@$tards right! [/silly_season] You might be right about the UN, although that is a meaningless organisation if there ever was one. In fact the sellout was done a lot better than the UN could ever dream of.
China has been very careful about HK...squashed some dissadents BUT left most of the infrastructure intact
To be fair to them, if only we could suppress dissidents like that.
Actually, HK has finally provided a good handover - a refreshing change from the Indian Empire and Rhodesia.
Rhodesia My Favorite...'Be a man amongst me...join the force.' Selous scouts, anti terr, R1 rifle in hand.
So GB has nukes...whaddaya gonna do...'Bedford incident?' Half a million Chinese armed with Kalishnikova Automovats and hand grenades...pump a zillion rounds out of 7.62 Brens and decide to drop a tactical nuke satchel??? One drop and the whole place lights up...everyone loses. Rhodesia was a disgrace.....India, well, we have 7-11s and Car Inspectors thankyou verrrrrymuch. The world, our world as we once knew it two decades ago, is a very different place.
My hope and prayers asks for enlightenment...China is so different now after the demise of the last generation...our parents generation...and we can only hope the pages of Maos little red book serve a necessary biological cleansing. I have a distant connection
with Taiwan and I can truly say that there are many who would fight to the death to remain free. China considers Taiwan a 'renegade province' to this day. CI peter
Yeah it is tragic. It may be strange for you to think like this, but in fact the govt in Taiwan is the true Chinese government (at least if you understand Chinese history in the traditional way) and the mainland CHinese government is at best a "breakway" govt (basically the Taiwan government was what's left over of the pre-1949 all-China government). But of course some would once again accuse me of being ultra-feudalistic thinking mindset (or ultra-reactionary, to name a few).
(PR) China does have nukes as well. And Deng Xiaoping would have no mercy to retort Mrs Thachter if she did use them. (I grew up in HK so I understand how determined Deng wanted to get HK back to the CHinese people)
Finally, HK isn't that good since the retuen to China - all the "negative equalities" and high enemployment figures, let alone the competitive disadvantage associated with the current peg the HK dollar has with the US dollar. All have made HK a much worse place to live than 5 years ago.
The economic barriers between the gifted and the working in Hong Kong are greater than ever resulting in a higher crime rate that is not disclosed. KNOW THE HISTORY of Taiwan...their industry went from plastic toys and poor iron castings to CPU motherboards and automated machinery...leaving 'Formosan natives' in squalor. There is no 'true Chinese government' as little has changed since the twentieth century warlords. What mainland China has done is force its way into Western industry with cheap labor...the greatest railroad system since Japanese Burma will be two tracks into Tibet at a cost of more than ten times the lives lost since the construction of the Burmese Railroad. US industry looks foward to the opportunity...Lucent was the first loser. CI peter
It may be strange for you to think like this, but in fact the govt in Taiwan is the true Chinese government (at least if you understand Chinese history in the traditional way)
You've read too much of their crappy propaganda.
AEM7
I would certainly agree. China was Chiang's to lose in the 1940's. His government did not have to lose control - of course his lackeys lacked the requisite integrity and administrative ability...among other things.
Saying that Taiwan is the true government of China is the same as saying that the Chin Dynasty is still the true government of China.
It's like saying that HM The Queen is the true head of state of the United States.
The Republic of China lost, they fled and as such are no longer the true government of China.
It's like saying that HM The Queen is the true head of state of the United States.
You've been looking at this one too much:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa112700b.htm
saying that the Chin Dynasty is still the true government of China.
Yes, and I'm going to lead a crusade to reclaim Constantinople, drive out the iconoclast barbarians and turn 'Agia Sofia back into a church. [/extremist_Greek_mode]
HM the Queen remains the true head of the Church of England (Anglican.) You drive into Brooklyn 'ghetto neighborhoods,' avoid the hoods and find six Chinese Takeout on one block. Ten bucks, cup of 'flied lice,' nine dollars in coupons returned. Arm the RPGS and free Agia Sophia or turn it into rubble. Nothing like being struck with the edge of a shoe paddle.
HM the Queen remains the true head of the Church of England (Anglican.)
Since when has Jesus Christ been Queen? I didn't know that the posts of Governor of the Church of England and Head of the Church could be combined.
Nothing like being struck with the edge of a shoe paddle.
:-P
Henry the Eighth I am I am...Henry the Eighth I am. Off with their heads!!!! BCP 1928 Rules. CI peter
BCP 1928 Rules.
And with thy spirit.
Yes, and the PRC could use those nukes to hit errrmmm.... the British Indian Ocean Territory. Nothing like nuking one airfield and a few wild animals.
Rhodesia My Favorite...
Sing with me...
Old McDonald had a farm
E-I-E-I-O
And on that farm he had some tobacco plants
Until Mr Mugabe took it away.
So GB has nukes...whaddaya gonna do...'Bedford incident?'
More like B.I.O.T. incident. And no-one lives there, so a counter attack would be pretty pointless. Throw all the nukes at Peking, Nanking and Shanghai and send them back to the Stone Age. Then send the Royal Welch Fusiliers into Hong Kong and finish off with a rousing rendition of the March of the Men of Harlech...
That's what we'd be like if Dubya was a Brit - scary... at least he'd've dealt with that racist arch-terrorist Mugabe by now.
I have a distant connection
with Taiwan and I can truly say that there are many who would fight to the death to remain free.
God bless Taiwan (in the event that God exists)! Even the PRC with their billion men can't do a thing except wave a few dreadnoughts around...
China is so different now after the demise of the last generation
And it would be even more different if the USA had let Nixon get on with the good job he was making of Foreign Policy rather than going and impeaching him. Talk about gratitude for your greatest presidents - Lincoln got shot, Wilson got his peace plans blocked by the Senate and Nixon got impeached.
Strangely enough the MTR has been a rather luxurious means of transportation. Of course the mega rich (ever heard of Li Ka-shing?) will have their cars complete with chauffeurs. A minority of middle class people will drive their own cars. But everyone else travels on public transportation and the MTR (and KCR East Rail - bit like suburban trains) is the fastest means to get around andthe most expensive. (A typical ride in the urban area costs 20% more than buses) Because of this usually it remains the mode for the middle class - the poorest take buses.
The truth is, there are much less than 100 people died in the whole construction period(since I don't know the figure). And of course, since the operation manager is still a British, the British efficiency can do something about the speed.
How did this grand announcement of Hong Kong's great achievement become a freaking debate about Hong Kong itself? Isn't this a board about the subway line itself, and not about the status of Hong Kong itself? Geez, remind me not to say anything when the KCRC West Rail opens 12 months from now, or I'm sure I'll be in for more of this crap.
This is about the Tsueng Kwan O Line, people. Not about territorial soverignty. A new line is open, and I'm sharing this with you people. At least some people havet the right idea!
On the topic of the Kwun Tong Line, I see the problem, but until the MTR sees the potential disaster, nothing's gonna be done. the Kwun Tong line's trains will go from Yau Ma Tei to Tiu Keng Leng until the cows come home. God if the MTR execs had half a brain the Kwun Tong trains would be going from Yau Ma Tei to Po Lam instead of some goddamned disaster combination of Yau Tong and Tiu Keng Leng. Hell, one extra stop at Tseung Kwan O wouldn't have hurt.
-J!
P.S. Elias, I have to agree with you!
Well, they are Americans, who love to talk about others politics... As you know, Subtalkers are quite easily turn out of topic.
Anyway, things go quite well in Tseung Kwan O Line, but there is a problem about the train itself. The train which was originally planned for Tsung Kwan O Line is now operating on Kwun Tong Line due to operational reason --- MTR has contracted out the depot of Tseung Kwan O line to Gonnian, which has refurbrished the old MTR trains. However, these new trains, known as K-Train has serious problem on the signal system made by Siemens, and the plug-door problem caused by unconsiderate passengers. As there were 3 accidents of the train door pressing passengers body parts (mainly hand). Those journalists came out and "tested" those doors! It was found that the train doors are less "detective" as the passengers thought. This had been on the headlines of all HK Chinese newspaper last week.
Unfortunately, South China Morning Post requires fee before reading most of their newspaper. Or else, I can link those news.
My own apologies for having too much fun sometimes ... that DOES seem to be a serious problem though if trains are injuring the customers. Is MTR or Gonnian planning to solve the problem? And don't mind us yanks, some of us are sane, many of us aren't, and that goes for our carousel of leaders too. :)
The K-Trains aren't built by Goninan. They're built by the Korean Rolling Stock company, or KOROS for short. It's a South Korean company who probably had the lowest bid for the train contract, and knows jack squat about anything other railway system besides the ones in South Korea.
-J!
KOROS is govt subsidized and they are as competent as korean shipyards
Remember the USS Pueblo...the USS Mayaguez and the the USS Liberty.
Those are ships, not MTR trains.
From what I've seen of KOROS's work, they're not exactly competent. Either that, or KOROS was "Tau gong jam liu", or cutting corners and pieces to reduce costs and then stick it into Hong Kong and pass it off as quality work. Those technicians in Hong Kong are going mad trying to get the K-Train to work with the system. It's not Siemens' fault, it's not the MTR's fault, so who's fault could it be then?
And of course, the Platform Screen Doors aren't helping either....
Siemens is responsible for the signal system. As MTR uses ATO, a good signal system is really important... As I know from some insiders, Siemens does have problem of making a usable software for ATO.
Of course, the trains themselves have a bigger problem, they are not only nostorious by their "prone-to-accident" doors, but also they are proned to delay due to signalling problem. MTR staff and some railfan called K-Train as "K-Tsai", which means Ecstasy the drug in Hong Kong!
Korean product other than ships is only competent in its country. When they are exported, they are heavily critized.
'Jack about squat'....Plattsburgh Bombardier R142s.
"Probably" is not a good term to use because it IS the lowest bid in the tender, just imagine to use HKD900,000,000(USD115,400,000) to buy 13 8-car trains!
What is the KCRC West Rail?
That's expected, since as far as I know many American subway fans don't know much about the metro/subway/rapid transit systems in Hong Kong in general. To be fair, most of HK transit fans don't know much about US transit sys either. A casual glance at the railway discussion boards hosted in HK will show that you have a better chance of reading posts on railway sys in London, Sydney, Melbourne, Toronto or even Vancouver than New York City or Chicago, for example. I suspect the only knowledge they have about the NY subway system was that the cars were old, full of graffiti, prone to crime at night time, stations were dirty, etc.
BTW, I was also born a Hong Kong Chinese. Just that I'm now a New Zealander. The suburban commuter system here in Auckland could be summarised into 3 words: old, dirty, and sparse.
What is the difference? Is head checking just spalling that happens on the railhead? What other kind of rail failure modes are there?
I do apologize if this has been brought up before. I remember seeing old posts about it, but no one talked about it in great detail.
AEM7
Spalling...
The spalling I know about is the loosening of materials due to the propagation of a shock wave. For example, when a squash-head or HEAT round fired by a tank cannon hits a target, material inside the target will come loose and fly around the interior, causing death and injuries to occupants.
Is this what you are referring to?
So like I pop-a-shot with my M1 at an R142 and the whole thing just starts to fall apart!!! The whole thing is falling apart of its own accord. CI Spalling, CI Spalling, report to the car desk with illacrity. CI Peter
What is 'head checking?'
Is that when you combine hockey with WWF wrestling on a subway train?
:0)
WWF no longer exists because of a trademark violation...I used to take care of their Times Square gameroom. 'Spalling' must have some relation to metal contact. 'Head Checking' must have some relation to coupler service. If you combine hockey with WWF wrestling, you get 'shoe paddle action edgewise.' CI Peter
You got me chuckling...
With the rehab of Jamaica Station (long overdue), has anyone noticed the steelwork going up that looks like the new west platform overpass ?
It's just about adjacent the old dilapidated overpass that smells like the Men's room at Stillwell Terminal ! I got my last shots of the old overpass. There are some older LIRR "Platform C" or D, E signs that predate MTA takeover.
Also, check out those MP-15 diesels assigned to work train service. The paint is beyond faded and the primer underneath is showing. Proves the LIRR always ran their equipment into the ground.
Bill "Newkirk"
That is true on those MP15's. The DE/DM's don't look that way YET. I don't think they are going to do anything about repainting the switchers except the black and orange SW 1001's (102 and 104). Those are still in good shape.
It seems that LIRR always neglects it's engines. I don't understand why, as Metro North which is also under the MTA, maintains them much better. Even when the LIRR had all the F's, MP15's, and GP38's in passenger service, and they repainted the engines, it always seemed to be cheaply done. They never had the nice shiny paint that Metro North put on it's FL9's (and most railroads put on their engines).
LIRR does not have an OSHA-certified paint booth.
That would explain it. What is a OSHA-certified booth? Not that they need it now with the ugly ribbed stainless exteriors, but why didn't they get one in all the years they had "painted" engines?
OSHA- cerified means environmentally safe - I don't know the technicalities. The Hillside facility theoretically got one, but fumes would contaminate the building nonetheless, so it was never used as such. It also explains the outdoor roller paint jobs they ruined the diesel P-S coaches with. They used to paint in Morris Park, but the facility was closed
I was returning from a NY Division ERA meeting Friday night when my Babylon train was heading east towards St.Albans. Even though it was dark outside, I knew I was riding on concrete ties. Even though just balasted, the ride seemed perfect and better than on wood ties.
The sound of the train riding on rails attached to concrete ties has a different sound. I was never on the outside hearing a speeding train pass by on rails on concrete ties. Is the rail noise the same, louder or quieter ?
Bill "Newkirk"
In case this has not already been pointed out, the late night R shuttle train will be extended from its current run of 36 St-95 St to a longer run, Pacific St-95 St, effective 9/8 when CI shuts down to all lines but the W.
It was a funny thing; when this sign was posted the other morning at my home stop (77th Street), people actually stopped & read the advisory! I'm so used to people ignoring service change notices & announcements, that this was a refreshing change!
Maybe they posted a photo of Jennifer Lopez next to the advisory. The only way they could get mens' attention.
And if Howard Stern truly *IS* "king of all media" then probably about 10% of the wimmen too. :)
they really read it!? WOWWWWWWWWW!!!! finally some people are developing some common sense and doing what they're supposed to be doing.
By the way the R will be operating express between 36th Street and Pacific Street
Thank You
Will the late night N shuttle be local or express between 59th and 36th? The track arrangement would accomodate either, although sending it express would be simpler and would reduce the likelyhood of jamups at 36th, where otherwise all three lines would have to share the local tracks.
Salaam: Congratulations on being there to record and photograph this historic occasion. You managed to scoop the Los Angeles Times, which apparently didn't consider this event newsworthy.
well there was the pasadena star news ...............but i out shot everybody there ............
one shot made the local paper !! ......thankz can hardly wait until i get off when the electric testing begins !!!
lol !!!
To me, it would have been alot more noteworthy if it were PCC cars that were being delivered. I'm surprised at you Salaam, I thought VINTAGE equipment was your bag (like myself). These cars are brand new, it's like big deal...
>>> These cars are brand new, it's like big deal... <<<
Actually it is the line itself that is a big deal. Ironically it will compete with the Pasadena Freeway for commuters. The Pasadena Freeway was the first freeway in southern California, and the start of the end of the street cars. So this is a counter attack by rapid transit.
Tom
i wish the PE cars could run on da' gold line ......dream on ....!!
>>>>...museum pcc car or something like that !!!
the PE should have never been torn down for any reason!!
now sometime next year only go to union station ...
>>>man that is a big bummer !!!............rats !!
..........( no - lol ) ......!!
i am just glad 2 see something folks!! it beats the bus / driving !
A few weeks ago I vistied Lebanon, Ohio and rode the Turtle Creek & Lebanon Railway. This is a tourist railroad operating from a beautifully landscaped depot in historic Lebanon through the Turtle Creek Valley with one hour round trips on weekdays and two hour round trips on Sundays.
The train is pulled by a 1950 built GP-7 #55 and has three coaches and a gondola which serves as a modified cab-control car. The three coaches are all ex-Lackawanna electrics with the pans removed. These are the ones with the low roofs. The gondola is modified tp carry passengers and has a cab that is equipted with emergency brake, horn and wjistle controls. On the return trip to Lebanon the GP-7 pushes the train and the brakeman rides in the cab using a two way radio to communicate with the engineer.
Near the depot in Lebanon is a restored, non-operating "filling station" which is a great place for photo shots.
Accross the street from the Lebanon Depot in a restaurant and hotel called "The Golden Lamb" which dates to 1815. The food is very good and worth a stop.
Larry,RedbirdR33
On Saturday, August 10 I paid a vist to the Connecticut Trolley Museum at Warehouse Point. Many of you are familiar with this museum but for those of you who haven't been there its worth a trip.
There are usually three to four cars running down a two mile right-of-way which is complete with highway grade crossings. The day that I was there three cars where running; Montreal tramways #2600, Montreal Open Observation # 4 and Illinois Terminal RR double-ended PCC # 451. This one was of special interest to me as a few weeks before I had riden her sister #450 at the Ohio Railway Museum in Worthington, Ohio. 451 is in very good condition.
The museum has many cars on display and like all museum could use volunteers to maintain the physical plant and run the cars. The staff is very friendly and if your in northern Connecticut it is worth a vist.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is the ex-LIRR MP54 4153 still a basket case ?
Yeah :(
It's fitted with poles, and popular rumor has it it did run at one time. If I'm ever up in the Hartford area, I might drop byand plug them for info on it. (Or getting it running)
Has Warehouse Point finished building the leads into its new brick barn? I was there a couple of years ago, and the tracks in the barn weren't connected to anything. I think they were planning to build leads to it from the back, but I'd like to know if they've done so yet.
Frank Hicks
Franks: It does not appear so. The tracks in the new brick building appear to be isolated from the others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
No one well-connected at The Point posts here. Perhaps some lurk?
Thurston operates there from time to time. I am not officially
affiliated.
During the past year, track was extended out the back end of the
visitor's center (under the shed) on 3 of the 4 tracks. I think
some sort of temporary track connection was made from that first
siding off the main line. At any rate, there was a lot of car
movement. The Climax (heh heh heh) locomotive left the VC and
cars were shifted around. They're using more of the VC for car
display now, although they still have one trackway which is vacant.
Apparently there is some disagreement on whether to put more cars
inside?! The Leyland Railbus that they got as part of the locomotive
sale is stored outside the VC under the shed.
As for the MP-54, it's a dead car. I think it ran a long time ago,
but something catastrophic like motor failure has happened to it.
It can't go up the shop lead because of the tight radius.
Sounds like they're making some progress. When I was there, there was only a short stretch of track under the shed and the only thing on it was the Gardner & Templeton plow. Also, they were only using two of the tracks in the Visitors Center, with a total of four cars inside IIRC (the Shaker car, box motor 0209, the Boston Type 5 and the Climax). Do you know which cars that used to be outside are now inside? I would imagine the ex-Springfield Montreal car is one, and I fervently hope that Black Mariah is another, but I obviously have no idea...
BTW, Warehouse Point was a model of collection rationalization - a trolley museum that had the guts to make the tough decision to deaccess an historic steam engine because it didn't fit in with their focus, and transfer it to a museum that could care for it. And then they went and got a British prototype railbus. :-D
Frank Hicks
The Climax deal was more complicated than that, but I'll talk
to you off-board about it.
I wasn't really paying close attention when I was in the visitor
center as I was just there to get a soda...I was working in their
shop. Yes, the Black Mariah was definitely in there.
Inside the display hall you'll find:
- 1386 the Steeple cab, 1st GE double truck
- 10 a combine
- 206 freight box motor
- 5645 Boston Type 5
- 1326 ConCo
- 1206 Peter Witt
Also the tracks out back have one of four pair with a temp connection,
however the line to it is clogged with freight cars (box, ref., tank, and LIRR MP-54).
If a trolley "ride" is what you want, they have a good set up for that, i.e. you get off one & can board another that will be next out.
I'm just a week-day fill-in man there, so this Wed (tommorow) will probably my last there until next year. It's 2 1/2 hours away for me, so I was just helping them out this Summer.
Thurston, thanks for the list of cars in the Visitors Center! I'm very glad to hear that steeplecab 1386 and the old Springfield Railway car are in there - when I visited CTM in 2000, 1386 was outside and car 10 was in the open-ended barn. I'm surprised to hear that ConnCo 1326 is in the Visitors Center, though - when I was at CTM, it was operational (it wasn't running but I was assured it was a service car). Did something happen to it, or is it just in semiretirement?
Frank Hicks
I visited it once in 1983 with the girl I was seeing at the time. They have several 4000s from Chicago in various paint schemes. Montreal's car sounds familiar; IIRC it's a sister of Shoreline's specimen.
Steve,
>>>Montreal's car sounds familiar; IIRC it's a sister of Shoreline's specimen.<<<
Yes, 2600 is a brethern to Shoreline's 2001. Both were built by CCF
in 1929. 2600, was one of the six originally
built as double enders. Was renumbered 2005 in Montreal in 1956.
2001 was one of the 40 single enders built at same time and rebuilt to double ended in 1933.
There are six remaining Montreal Steel Cars in New England Museums.
2001 and 1972 (Branford), 2056 and 2600 (Warehouse Point) 2052 & 2652
(Seashore). 2052 and 2056 were originally built by Wason for Springfield, Mass. serving from 1927 to 1940.
;-) Sparky
We rode on 2600 back in '83. I remember the motorman talking about how it had corrosion from all the salt they use in Montreal during the winter (forget the gravel - they just dump pure salt!). The interesting part about Warehouse Point is passing a grade crossing on the mainline.
Steve,
At the Point, there are two gate controlled [dual] grade crossings.
Pennsylvania Trolley Museum has one grade crossing, flashers only.
Seashore has a on property grade crossing controlled by flashers
leading to the shop building and a non controlled crossing on the
lead to the Highwood Exibit Car House. There are also two
pedestrian crossings, which are signalled.
Rock Hill Trolley Museum, has a uncontrolled grade crossing, while
the EBT narrow gauge trains cross onto the trolley museum property
to wye their trains.
Any others, please chime in.
;-) Sparky
Orange Empire Railway Museum out here in Perris, California has one crossing that is within the museum proper...it has an old wig-wag and bell.
Twice a year they run trains to the downtown Perris depot, a couple miles north of the museum. They traverse either two or three public roads that have crossbucks only -- but museum volunteers must be there to flag the crossings.
The Illinois Railway Museum has two grade crossings on the main line, both with crossbucks only. There is also a private crossing with poor visibility, so speed over that crossing is very limited. There are numerous on-property grade crossings: the streetcar line crosses Central Avenue once and Depot Street twice, the West Wye crosses the pedestrian entrance walkway, the Steam Lead crosses Depot Street, the Barn 6/7/8 Ladder Track crosses Central...
The East Troy Electric Railroad in Wisconsin has several major grade crossings. There are two in East Troy (crossbucks only, I think) and at least one out on the line, perhaps more; there's also one in Mukwonago.
Midwest Electric Railway Museum in Mt. Pleasant, Iowa has several on-property grade crossings that are busier during the Reunion than any of the roads mentioned above generally are.
Trolleyville (outside of Cleveland) has several grade crossings of residential streets in the trailer park, all crossbucks only.
As an aside, the museum in Worthington, Ohio did a nice job of crossing Route 161 - they built a girder bridge over it!
Frank Hicks
IRM's mainline goes almost right into Union, IIRC. It also crosses the road which leads to the museum's parking lot.
The Trolley Museum of New York at Kingston has at least one crossing, warning signs only.
Bill "Newkirk"
TMNY actually has three public crossings along the current operation. The trolley stops at all crossings and is flagged across.
Aye, witness.
In addition to those mentioned elsewhere:
Penn Trolley Museum (Arden) crosses a public street heading towards
their new line extension.
Baltimore Streetcar Museum, as I learned on Sunday, crosses
a driveway to a public works facility and also has a grade-separated
crossing with a mainline RR but they wait anyway to avoid crossing
under the bridge and having something drop off the train.
Trolleyville has a few unprotected crossings within its trailer
park complex.
The Leatherstockings line in Cooperstown has one crossing that is flagged. Damn car didn't see the flagger to till the last minute, (almost ran him down) then tried to pass him. He banged on the guys hood with the flag just as the locomotive entered the street.
On another line, and I forgot *where* it was, they had crossing electrically operated crossing gates, but there were no track detectors, instead the station operator threw a switch and the lights would flash and the gate would come down. He didn't look before he threw the switch and so dropped the gates right in from of an oncoming car. Oh well, it would have done the same thing if the gates were fully automatic.
Elias
NJ Transit had an incident a couple of years ago in Red Bank that I witnessed... as I turned the corner onto Shrewsbury Avenue from Front Street, the lights started to flash. A white pickup was just entering the crossing from the south; the gate on his side abruptly fell rather than descending gently, striking the hood and then shattering as the truck proceeded across. Fortunately the driver was not hurt, just badly surprised, but his truck sustained several thousand dollars in damages and may have been totalled, as the "A" pillars were bent.
Several years ago (10 or more, I think) Norfolk Southern had a crossing near Kannapolis, North Carolina on the main line used by Amtrak. The gates were improperly timed, such that Amtrak (moving 79 mph) would be on the crossing before the gates were even half down (they were fine for the usual 10 mph local freight that switched an adjacent lumber distributor). It took several near misses, one involving my father and another involving an ambulance, and an investigative report by a local TV station before anything got done. Fortunately no actual vehicle/train collisions occured, AFAIK.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A belated thanks to all that chimned in with responses.
;-) Sparky
T-o-o-t t-o-o-t toot t-o-o-t
I think 1403 is also a Montreal steel car at Shoreline.
Steve Loitsch
Steve,
I never claimed puuurfection. I'll stand corrected 1403 is indeed
a 1914 steel passenger car from Ottowa Car Company at Shoreline.
I'm from the decade of pencil's & erasers.
;-) Sparky
John,
I did not intend for anyone to take offense, sorry if it came across that way. i was not sure if 1403 was a steel or wood car. Heck i dont think I have ever even seen it!!
Steve
1403 is a composite car.
I think all of the preserved Montreal cars are either in Delson or
at one of the 3 New England trolley museums.
That sounds about right. I wish the TTC had an open touring car like the ones Montreal had that are now at museums (or bought one of those at Montreal's abandonment and reguaged); would be lovely for riding around on in the evening/night during summers but these days would be the sunburn express during the day.
-Robert King
Well theme parks may seem a little off topic for sub-talk but this one has an operating trolley line known as the Lakeside Trolley. It is a single track line about a thousand feet long. The service is covered by an escapee from Branford, Connecticut 15 bench open trolley #1414. There are only two stops known as the north station and the south station. The north station is built as a pavillion which has metal drop down gates so the car can be secured when the park is closed.
The park also had the standard narrow-guage train ride using an ersatz steam locomotive pulling six coaches on a long single track line with reversing loops at each end running along the lake. The train was built by Chance Manufacturing and the coaches are all seven bench open types known as Model 102.
It also a great water park for the little railfans which will give you older guys an excuse to go there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
But did you go on the roller coasters and that bench ride over the mountain?
Except 1414 isn't an escapee from Branford, it's leased to Lake Compunce. Branford people come over to maintain the car and train the parks's people how to properly operate it. Once upon a time Lake Compunce was served by Conco cars and the park's operators recognize that fact, plus Branford gets the publicity having it there.
Actually we specifically do not do the maintenance or training!
The park contracts with Rail Technical Services of Guilford, CT
for that (the same place that is working on that car for NatCap).
We supply the car and any needed replacement components (e.g.
controller fingers) only.
P.S. Thanks for the hospitality at BSM earlier today (Sunday).
Made it back in 3.5 hours!
Here is the article from WCBS 88: -Nick
(CBS)-(NEW YORK)-Two high-speed Acela Express trains have resumed service, and more could join them for the start of the work week, Amtrak says.
All 18 of the premier trains were sidelined most of last week after inspectors found cracks in shock-absorbing assemblies beneath many of the locomotives.
The passenger railroad put two of the trains back into service Saturday, Amtrak spokesman Bill Schulz said.
These repaired trains were operating again on Sunday, making a total of four trips in the Boston-New York-Washington corridor, Amtrak's busiest.
"If you're a passenger, you're pleasantly surprised that you paid for a regional train ticket and instead you're on Acela Express," Schulz said.
More trains were expected to enter service Monday morning, but Schulz said scheduling details were not yet complete.
Amtrak will continue to use conventional trains when Acela Express equipment is not available.
Amtrak initially said none of the high-speed trains would return to duty until Tuesday at the earliest, but repair work is progressing ahead of schedule.
Repairs to the Acela Express trains began Friday at Amtrak maintenance yards in Washington, Philadelphia, New York and Boston.
The work is being done on heavy stainless-steel brackets that attach shock-absorbing yaw dampers to the locomotives, preventing them from swaying at high speeds.
Cracks and breaks were found on many of the yaw damper assemblies. Some are being repaired, while others are being replaced.
These temporary repairs are designed to get the trains back into service. Permanent repairs could then be done gradually, without canceling of service.
Even before the cracking problem was discovered this week, Amtrak said the Acela Express trains would need to be pulled out of service for repairs and modifications by their builders, Bombardier of North America and Alstom Ltd. of France.
Amtrak owns 18 of the Acela Express trains, which can reach speeds of 150 mph, but normally sends 15 into duty each day. About 10,000 people ride Acela Express trains on a typical weekday.
Amtrak canceled all Acela Express runs last Tuesday, put two of the trains back in service Wednesday, but then pulled all the trains again after additional cracks were found Thursday.
It also sidelined 15 locomotives that pull conventional trains in the Northeast after finding similar cracks. Schulz said Amtrak is concentrating on repairing the Acela Express trains first before turning to the conventional locomotives.
Amtrak President David Gunn said the experience shows why Amtrak should go with established technology rather than new designs, such as Acela Express, when it seeks to buy additional high-speed trains.
He said the U.S. government should make it easier for Amtrak to buy trains designed in Europe and used there.
Amtrak pledged to credit passengers for the difference in ticket prices between Acela Express and the trains they take. Passengers were encouraged to check departures by visiting Amtrak's Web site or calling (800) USA-RAIL.
On a typical day, Amtrak sends 15 Acela Express trains into service and keeps three in reserve. This represents about 25 percent of the Northeast corridor traffic, with the percentage being slightly higher on the New York - Boston route.
More than 10,000 people ride the swift trains on a typical weekday, enjoying amenities such as a pub-style cafe car and electrical outlets at every seat.
Good news. I have reservations to ride the Sun/Mon of Labor Day weekend for the next installment of Transit and Weather Together.
I think you may be able to have that ride, as long as no more problems occur. :-) -Nick
The new york times reported today that the AE is like bolting a ferari suspention on a tank.
The aide, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said builders had had to graft a heavy car, required by American standards for crashworthiness, atop a European-derived undercarriage. He likened the result to "a tank chassis on a Ferrari suspension."
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/18/national/18AMTR.html
Other interesting part of the story is Amtrak once again runs out of money at the end of September and Congrefs is a bit late on appropriations to start with. Here we go again ...
I'm sure congress is going to be ready to do yet another bailout for Amtrak, especially in light of this 'issue' with Acela, which frankly, I'm not convinced Amtrak and BBD are even close to solving, and maybe not even understanding. There's been rumblings that this isn't as new a problem as we're being lead to believe.
I'm almost willing to bet it's fatigue from normal use, and that thickening the support plates won't do jack, other than stop the cracks from forming at the bolt holes and make them form somewhere else (noteably where the plate welds onto the frame - watch for reports of welds breaking on 'repaired' Acelas).
Why this happened? My guess is that in an attempt to 'fix' the hunting issues, BBD, with it's back up against the wall and faced with a big question mark truck redesign, tried really stiff dampers. It worked, and that was that. Of course, nobody ever bothered to work back the forces through the brackets...
Sure a thicker bracket plate might stop it from cracking (or, cracking so fast), but there's other stuff getting stressed like crazy too, here.
I'd put my money on saying that the Acela's truck and stability problems are far, far from over.
I'm not convinced Amtrak and BBD are even close to solving, and maybe not even understanding. There's been rumblings that this isn't as new a problem as we're being lead to believe.
The earlier AE service problems, I believe, is excessive wheel wear due to the lack of radial trucks. Guess which continent decided that radial trucks were not necessary?
(Answer: TGV's do not have radial trucks, so Alstom felt that Acelas would not need them).
Sure a thicker bracket plate might stop it from cracking, but there's other stuff getting stressed like crazy too.
Weld enough metal in place then the damn thing will last. If something needs to take a load, you have to design it for the load. True, they could have done better with better riding trucks, but they haven't. So now to fix it, they just need to strengthen the brackets, unless they want to replace all the trucks on every locomotive...
I think the worst they would end up with is a trainset that would be required to reduce speed when it approaches station platforms that have inadequate clearance. If they made the damper softer and re-calculate the kinematic envelope, I suspect the train will pass in most places except on Metro North and at platforms.
AEM7
The earlier AE service problems, I believe, is excessive wheel wear due to the lack of radial trucks. Guess which continent decided that radial trucks were not necessary?
(Answer: TGV's do not have radial trucks, so Alstom felt that Acelas would not need them).
And the number of trains in the US with radial trucks is..... Zero. of course, ABB's X-2000 had them, and much talk was made about it. They worked, too, which is more than can be said for the Acela.
And, yes, the TGV doesn't have them because it's light and stable with conventional trucks. The X-2000 has them to reduce track wear / increase stability because of the large number of tight curves on X-2000 lines.
Weld enough metal in place then the damn thing will last.
Sure it will. Then something else breaks instead. But the problem with that is it fixes the symptoms, not the problem. The problem is the Acela isn't stable at speed and requires stiff dampers as a result. Of course, those dampers will inevitably wear out, thus making the Acela's stability worse.
If something needs to take a load, you have to design it for the load.
True, but if it's breaking afterwards, you need to find out WHY, instead of just making it bigger. There's lots of reasons why these cracks could be forming. Without research, nobody knows, though.
True, they could have done better with better riding trucks, but they haven't. So now to fix it, they just need to strengthen the brackets, unless they want to replace all the trucks on every locomotive...
They may end up doing that anyway. I'm willing to bet the next big problem is going to be either cracks appearing downstream of the brackets, or somewhere on the trucks.
I think the worst they would end up with is a trainset that would be required to reduce speed when it approaches station platforms that have inadequate clearance. If they made the damper softer and re-calculate the kinematic envelope, I suspect the train will pass in most places except on Metro North and at platforms.
And also beat the hell out of the track, though the Acela's dynamics already are likely much worse than any other HSR. In any case, with the very tight trackage in places of the New Haven line, and the Acela being too wide anyway, a softer suspension would increase the chances of hitting something greatly. And frankly, if the Acela starts knocking things around, MN will probbably throw a speed restriction on it (as they have done with the E-60s). It's clear that until the clearances on the NH line get loosened up (and I don't think that will happen, they're absolutely fine or MN, and conventional amtrak trains, and changhing them would require replacement of every catenary pole on the line), there will be no tilt. I suspect that once the current south of Stamford wire project finishes, you will see a change in MAS from 75 to 90mph in places.
Acela's quickly turning into another Metroliner - overweight, poor performing, and filled with design issues. It's almost universally agreed the X-2000 would have been the better choice, and I'm sure when / if congress gets involved in this mess, everyone's going to have to be answering some hard questions about the whole Acela program...
And the number of trains in the US with radial trucks is..... Zero.
Somebody forgot to count the fleet of more than 10,000 SD-60M, SD-70MAC, SD-80MAC, SD-90MAC out there, I guess? :-)
And, yes, the TGV doesn't have them because it's light and stable with conventional trucks... The X-2000 has them to reduce track wear/increase stability because of the large number of tight curves on X-2000 lines.
I agree. However you must remember that TGV's have dedicated right of way maintained to very high standards. Alstom should have realized they are not designing a vehicle to run on that kind of right of way from the first bat. New Haven Shore Line has lots of curves, and without knocking lots of houses down, will never be without them. X2000 was more suitable to the Amtrak geography between NYP and BOS because, like Amtrak, Sweden's rail system is a retro-fit also, since new lines simply cannot be justified with the kind of population density they have.
TGV lines also rely on a very dubious type of hybrid tie. You should hear the MBTA's story about those. Thsoe ties doesn't even survive rapid transit use in North America. That TGV line really is an interurban line.
The verdict: Alstom's error, since they had no experience in building HSR's for mixed traffic lines.
And also beat the hell out of the track, though the Acela's dynamics already are likely much worse than any other HSR.
Dialling down the yaw dampers would not beat the hell out of the track -- in fact dialling them UP would beat the hell out of the track... a softer suspension is gentler on the track; they ease out the attack when the truck hits a curve.
the clearances on the NH line get loosened up...replacement of every catenary pole on the line
They need to do this as part of the capital programme for replacing the line with constant tension kit.
Acela's quickly turning into another Metroliner - overweight, poor performing, and filled with design issues.
I don't think the Acela is cost-effective, and I personally rarely ride the damn train because it is too damned expensive, and I also thought that there are more deserving places on the Amtrak system than on the Northeast Corridor. But we are where we are. The Acela had some good points, and I think the heavyweight body and the power and the wide body are a few of them. All of the problem I've had with the Acela comes from design elements that were European. I think a much better idea for the Acela would have been to re-engineer existing Metroliner or Viewliner shells with a heavy-duty tilting truck. But that's just my damn fool opinion.
AEM7
I'd pretty much agree, though I'm not a locomotive designer. It sure does seem though that previous Amtrak management ramrodded this pig on wheels through the process, didn't listen to the design warnings from numerous vendors, and failed to do their homework. Not at all unusual with government "architects" and before anyone bashes me for saying this, I PERSONALLY did designs for government equipment (mostly teleivion broadcast and transmission equipment) and I got my main gig with the state to come in and CLEANUP such messes under "personal services contracts" after which I was hired up as a PEF member after several projects and messes I straightened out.
Ain't much one can do about those who made this mess, chances are they're all gone. To my mind, the question is do we try to repair this mess, or just chuck it out and start over from scratch. I've had to cut the bologna both ways myself - I inherited some REAL junk and made it work, some other junk was just absolutely hopeless and a waste of money sitting outside of the landfill. It was cheaper to scrap new stuff and buy replacements than it was to try to make it work.
I'm sure Gunn's got people who know how to slice a salami properly and that might not include "Acela" once all the realities are accounted for. A turd is a turd and no matter how you polish it, it's STILL a turd. Hopefully Acela isn't such despite the way it looks. You can tell just by the issues and the back and forth with the vendor that somebody screwed up BIG. Question now, can it be fixed?
Yeah, but if it does the speed advertised, at least it won't be in front of your nose for long :)
Heh. I'm a sucker for happy endings myself. But I also know the motto of the PRIVATE SECTOR ... "Wing it or fling it." Word. :)
...didn't listen to the design warnings from numerous vendors...
"design warnings" is just a new phrase with which the vendors attempt to get out of design liability. With a DBM contract, like Alstom has got, the idea is to make the vendor make responsible design decisions. Obviously, Bombardier has failed to do even that...
The bottom line: if the specifications says ABC, and the kit doesn't do ABC, then the contractor is at fault. The specification included things like meeting FRA crashworthiness standards. If Bombardier can't built a unit that will meet those standards, they shouldn't have bid on the contract.
AEM7
Actually, the world is entirely different in government action. You put out "detailed specifications" and invite bids. Bidders come in and say "well, what we have here meets all these specifications and all, but you SCREWED UP in your specifications and we're going to CHALLENGE your bid specs" if we don't get our way. (used to DO this "carp" for a living) ... so they offer what they have to peddle and it's up to you to write an ironclad JUSTIFICATION for rejecting their bid as "not meeting spec" ... the QUALIFIED bidder who bid what you wanted wins.
Only problem is that if what you wrote the specifications for out of catalogs has been discontinued by its manufacturer, because it has been dragged through review so long, the manufacturer's gone, you get what you asked for ("or equivalent.") ... that's when the stinky-poo begins. Vendors BID on what you ask for even if you're a moron. To bid something else risks disqualification and the low bidder always wins, even if they're willing to give you EXACTLY what you asked for.
I suspect that the original specs were for an incredibly smart design. Then it went to committees and study groups and cost accountants and other passings of the blessings through the typical government procession where ever thumb has to leave ink on the design contract. By the time it goes out to bid, it's a paisley camel with headlights under the tail. Seen it too many times myself.
Going to be quite amusing to see where this all goes, but if the design was inadequate, it all comes down to whether what was purchased *MET* spec or not. If it DID, then "wing it or fling it" applies.
Last I looked, vendors VOLUNTEER and COMPETE to ptoduce they are not DRAFTED. If the specs are BS, they should not seek the work despite the salesmen's fantasies. As rail equipment history has shown repeatedly, some designs don't make the ultimate test. The list of scrapped early, downgraded to yard goat, used on low priority locals etc is legion. Aerotrain?
But if the specs are flawed, and you build it TO specs, normally you won't lose in court and hey, that check's a BIG mother, mother. :)
All part of the game. Politicians who don't fear an election won't rock the boat. After all, burrocrats ALWAYS outlive the elected. Eventually you learn that as a politico. Some vendors won't touch bad specs, but I can tell you from all the ill-fated bid openings I've attended, somebody always bids. Even if it comes down to Alstom or Breda as far as train consists go ...
There are many who believe that enough "compensated change orders" can overcome every bad design. I used to make a decent buck coming in after 200 change orders, and "wing it or fling it." :)
Hell ... look at the Amtrak Rensselaer fiasco. It got built, and there were more change orders than even Amtrak could shake an Acela at. :)
The aide, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said builders had had to graft a heavy car, required by American standards for crashworthiness, atop a European-derived undercarriage....
Which again demonstrates how poor a paper New York Times really is. You guys should read Washington Post, they have transportation writers who are a lot more knowledgable.
The "European-derived" undercarriage is the mistake here. They should have re-designed the undercarriage for the load, which is what they are probably in the process of doing now...
AEM7
At 5:30PM today, I saw a Southbound 2 train at East 180th Street comprised of Redbirds! I thought they were gone on the 2.
Not gone...scheduled maintainance behind by a couple of weeks so we see a few...TA RTO is responsible for operation. SM means usually two months till next inspection...don't expect another #2 inspection.
#5 still stuck with SM...what we get is 'flagged #2 cars' along with the R142 'storage fleet.' I need a Siberian Winter break. CI Peter
What's funny is that for many months, there really were no Redbirds on the 2 on weekends. About two weeks before you posted that the Redbirds were officially gone even on weekdays, I rode one on a Sunday, and they've been showing up consistently on weekends ever since.
My end was an official end to inspections...no more Redbird inspections on the #2 line. Surprise to me to find one two weeks later...they're off sked. We on #5 still have to deal with the transition from Old Tech to NeW Tech.....many #2 Deadbirds come back to us for Ressurection. Readbird trainsets will be run RTO #2 till the buzzards come down...they'll shift the carcass' to #5 by the last inspection. RTO should keep a few Redbirds handy for the 'midnight Riot Runs' because of the lack of vandal resistance of Bombardiers products. You'll see a few RotBirds about only if AC is working. CI Peter
When I heard about the pullapart last week, the first thing I said to myself was, "they'll probably run a bunch of Redbirds if they run inspections on the 142's". If the reason for running a Redbird has nothing to do with my assumption, then one can safely say that the Dispatcher or someone in management decided it would be fun to send a T/O down the road in a hot cab.
Well u will see redbirds on the 2 from time to time until the five has all r142s and all the bugs are worked out
Correct!!! Once #5 trainsets are all R142s, there will be no more shared Redbirds. Mebbe by next pick? CI Peter
Na, from time 2 time you'll see them
Does anyone out there know if there was a nostalgia train last summer that went to the Rockaways. If so does anyone have any pictures of the Nostalgia going to Rockaway. My freind told me he saw a D-Type while heading over the Cross Bay bridge in his car. I did not believe him, but then again correct me if I am wrong.
Anyway I will be on the Nostalgia Train this coming Sunday August 25, 2002, hope to see you great rail fans there.
Yes, I believe there was one to the Rockaways. I'm not going on the next one, as the only way they can do it is to send the train to Coney Island over the Culver Line. Kind of boring. Hopefully, next year with Stillwill being rehabbed, they'll send the train to the Rockaways again. Or, even better, perhaps Bill Wall will have another March of Dimes charity run which puts the Nostalgia train to shame!
I'll take another trip in semi official uniform...as long as ambient temperatures outside are below 50 degrees. I want to do the Brooklyn route. CI Peter
Or, even better, perhaps Bill Wall will have another March of Dimes charity run which puts the Nostalgia train to shame!
There is one coming September 22nd. Check Upcoming Events
--mark
Has anyone else ordered tickets yet? Im still waiting for mine
do you order from the same place ?? i will be there in setember !
Of course I did...I gotta call the guy today and find out whats up. It would be nice to meet any of you guys that decide to go. Just drop me an E-Mail (NYant78@AOL.COM).
Salaamallah and TonyR40M,
Are you waiting for tickets for the Transit Museum Nostalgia Train
for this Sunday, August 25th or the Division C "March of Dimes"
excursion on Sunday, September 22nd? Contact me at trolley687@aol.com
if its the later for late information.
;-) Sparky
Thinking about it...was easier to connect from Grand Central...left a message with Bill. CI Peter
I did (for 9/22) ... it's still kinda early so I wouldn't expect them just yet ....
--Mark
South Ferry will reopen around 9/15/02. I just got a copy of the open job bids for cleaners. (More on job bids below.) and they had jops for two cleaners at South Ferry- One reguilar and one HDC (Heavy Duty Cleaninf) which operates a scrubber machine.
Open Job bids- twice each pick they relase a list of available jobs created by new jobs or if someone leaves by promotion, demotion, death, retirement, resignation, etc.
You can pick any job with a seniority number beter than yours. Lets' say you ate 2000. You cna pick a job with senority number 0000-19996 buyt not 2001 since you passed on that job earlier.
The person who gets that job will be notified and their job will be filled by an extra until the next open job bid. Let's say you pick and get Imaghinary Blvd on the Y line overnight. Your current job( Nirvana Square) would be on the hold-down sheet for extras to pick. Your job will also go on the next open job bid.
Sounds good, but the chances of getting a job with a seniority number of 200, is one in a million if you're at the bottom of the list.
-Stef
same with my number- 2774. I agree with you! Our day will come, my friend. Hang in there I know it is discouraging. One of these days we will have 20-30 years!
same with my number- 2774. I agree with you! Our day will come, my friend. Hang in there I know it is discouraging. One of these days we will have 20-30 years!
Like they say with the Lottery, You never know! It doesn't hurt to put on a bid. Chances are you won't get it. But there is always a chance you might.
True. I got a V/R Job on Open Job Bid #2 in 12/2001. It was only 30 days long, but damn it was so sweet!!!! {Sigh}
-Stef
I put a Bid in for an open job 2 times and got it 2 times. This pick I'm doing a job I won on the Bid and the jobs I let go are being covered by New C/R's on the Extra List.
Did you notice on the Cleaners Open Job Bid, an error was made?
One of the jobs is at R-107, Park Place. That is incorrect. Park Place is R-115. R-107 was Courtlandt Street, once upon a time....
-Stef
Any information is appreciated.
No, but several tourist lines in PA operate de-powered Blueliners. There is one in Jim Thorpe.
Hi I may have a new job in the South Bronx on Walnut Ave near the Triboro Bridge. I live on Plainview Long Island what would be the best transportation for me if I work there from 9 to 5.
Best bet is to drive. If not, take LIRR to Jamaica, then change to Q44 bus going to the Bronx. Take Q44 to Westchester Ave and change to Downtown 6 train. Take 6 train to 138 St-3 Ave or Brook Ave(best bet). If memory serves, I think Q44 connects with 6 train at either Westchester Square or Parkchester, I can't quite remember.
its at Parkchester
Would it be faster if I took the LIRR to Hunters Point Ave Catch the number 7 to Grand Central and then the 6 uptown to transfer to the number 33 bus? How long would it take to get from Hunters Point up to the Bronx? Otherwise the Q44 would be stuck in the traffic.
Try A hellicopter Traffic at that time an Location is horrible,If you go by Train LIRR to Penn St Catch 2 to Simpson And walk down the strip.Bus it from ther total time around hour 15 .
No subscriptions silliness:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=55650&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/18/2002
(curious how Bruno is nowhere to be seen or heard now that he's won the battle)
That sounds like a fair deal.
(That sounds like a fair deal.)
Of the $750,000 in projected operating costs, $50,000 will be paid by Amtrak, and the rest will be paid by someone else. I just hope it isn't New York City, based on a reallocation of state transportation aid. I doubt the CDTA has it, and how much can they charge for parking up there? Maybe we'll be lucky and they'll just move some state agency in at exhobitant rent.
Just avoid the burgers at the restaurant, a sack of jacks will set you back $200.00 ... heh.
As "ar" pointed out, tonight's special in the Joe Bruno Amtrak restaurant is CROW ... au jus or ala mode. Amazing what can happen when politicians wet their fingers and kiss the third rail. :)
Don't take any math lessons from that Times Union reporter! The Amtrak rent is reported as 25 cents per square foot, while typical office rents are described as being $17 per square foot. The former is per month and the latter is per year, however.
So, Amtrak is still getting a good price, but it's $3 per square foot per year (the usual way rents are stated), not 25 cents.
Still ... at least it's not AMTRAK that's getting the high hard one. :)
Thanks for the justification. Yeah, NYS has to wait behind all the FEDERAL officials trying to stick it to AMTRAK. That task now gets harder because a certain Gunn is always pointing at them. If the feds can't screw AMTRAK over nowadays, do you think the states even have a chance (other than California maybe)?
Heh. I *love* the guy ... it's nice to know there's still BAETZIM out there ... SOMEWHERE ...
Who knows? Without Amtrak to shove around, we might still see Ken Lay do a perp walk! :)
I t sound like amtrak is doing the right thing
More like they got an offer they couldn't refuse. :)
If you read the article, you can HEAR the senators and the congressfish screaming uncle because all of us here upstate put OUR politicos castinets to the FIRE. Your turn now down in the city. The squeaky wheel actually gets a car inspector! Heh.
Yes, it's possible -- with a caveat. That caveat is that the card must have expired within the past year. It can't be done with unexpired cards, and cards that have sat around more than a year since expiration lose their value.
That said, it's simple. Just tell the machine you want to add money to your card and insert the card. The machine will ask if you want to trade it in instead, and will even offer you one of these:
This works at MEM's (the little machines that don't take cash); I don't think it works at MVM's.
Oh, and in case you happen to be reading this -- to whoever left the MetroCard with $4.50 that expired last September on the card reader at Atlantic Avenue, thanks! My Fun Pass paid off this time.
Why was the feature removed in the first place?
It was removed because collectors (or, more likely, sports card stores) were emptying machines when there were sports-related MetroCards by repeatedly trading in cards without making any purchases.
I have managed a trade-in on an MVM before the expiration. I had a card with some odd amount of money left on it like $0.60 and wanted to add money to get it up to an exact number of fares. It was a week from expiration, and the MVM would only let me trade it it. I would guess that it won't put money on cards about to expire. I suppose one of the professionals out there can be precise as to the rule.
An annoyance is when they do this to Reduced Fare Cards. I ended up with a $2.25 regular card from my mother this way. She tried to add money to her reduced fare card, which was about to expire. The new card had not arrived yet. Instead, she got a regular card with the balance and had to pay at the booth and get a return ticket until her new card came.
Supposedly (according to posts here and elsewhere) there's a bug in the machines that provides the opportunity for theft. Rather than fix the bug, the feature was disabled. (Actually, I think what I heard is that the bug was going to eventually be fixed, but until then the feature would be disabled. We're still waiting and I have a feeling we'll be waiting a long time.)
The first two MEM's, at the southeast Herald Square mezzanine, freely did trade-ins for a few months, but the last time I tried to do a trade-in there, I couldn't.
S/A's will do trade-ins on request, assuming you can get them to understand your request. A few weeks ago, I had the balance on an unused $16.50 Lincoln Center card transferred to an empty card, but the S/A couldn't understand why I'd want to do that.
Here's a link I found to website that lists locomotives Operator Manuals.
I'm susprised to see that still up. I would have expected it to have been taken down faster than the DC track maps for fear that Johnny Jihad might actually figure out how to do a rolling brake test. :)
LOL!
I have a few copies of these manuals. Gonna prosecute me?
Oh yeah, those baldwin RF-16 Shark's sure are a big terrorism targer :-)
Hey! Hey. We're talking about a wig who has blue curtains in front of a damned statue because it is a clear and present danger. NEVER underestimate the power of the paranoid when they've been sworn in. :)
(and where are those MILITIAS when we need 'em?)
...and calico cats are the Devil.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's one I was NEVER able to decode. Throwing all menstruating women off the plane, OK ... blue curtain fetish because the Mother of Justice statue has an exposed breast, OK ... No dancing ... ummm ... OK, mandatory prayer before a meeting ... OK ... really really BAD singing of "when Eagles soar" ... OK ... somehow the Taliban don't seem so far off the mark. But I digress. :)
HEH, I got me a calico cat just to protect myself.
Peace,
ANDEE
I decided to invest in the standard television studio blue curtain myself, in order to protect me from BOOBS. :)
hehehe
... and so far it's WORKING! :)
LOL
pEACE,
andee
NIGHTY-nite
See YA Later,
Peace,
ANDEE
You might want to run a web site downlaoder on that.
Here's something you don't see everyday.
Anyone know the story behind this? The Amtrak was having problems so the VIA loco was borrowed? I always thought they ran through-power on this route, although usually involves Amtrak going to Canada instead of VIA coming to Chicago.
AEM7
Until 2 years ago, the International always had Amtrak coaches and a VIA Rail engine. Wit that new signal system in Michigan, the VIA engines had to disappear.
This one wasn't labeled. It sure looks like Crescent St. on the J. Do they normally open the doors on a fan trip?
Yes it was a fantrip, I was there.
They have to open all doors at photostops so everyone can get on and off quickly and not tie up the "road".
Bill "Newkirk"
Ok, that makes sense. Keep forgeting about the road. They'll start yelling. Thanks.
When was that photo taken??
10/29/89...Fan Trip.
Peace,
ANDEE
Very strange. Why would they leave one car at the block? Anyone know? Thanks.
It says Special. Maybe it's a charter and they only needed one car? Wedding party?
AEM7
BUS service? And come ON ,AEM7 ... NO wedding party in their right mind would have rented THAT rattler ... the "ta" used to lease cars for parties, and it was usually the newest stuff they had, decked out with drapes on the windows if you wanted them, bar in a trunk, the whole nine yards. Almost got a job on one once but got beat out by somebody else. I doubt they do "party cars" anymore, but once upon a distant time, you COULD rent a subway car. Village Voice used to do annual Christmas parties and such ...
Selkirk, are you joking? What would they do, drive a R-9 with drapes and confetti shooting out the back up and down 6th Ave?
It was usually 42's, 44's or 46's in my day. Usually the newest "new car smell" cars ... but if someone wanted an oldie, I'm sure they'd roll that too. I'd seen a few go by, locked out at the end of trains here and there, got to see one getting outfitted for a party at Stillwell and bid on the job (wasn't even close to getting it) so I've seen them. I imagine it was even done with redbirds over on A division as well. Dunno what the protocols were, but you leased a car of your own with your own personal conductor. Now THAT'S partying Noo Yawk style in MY book. :)
Sounds like a good place for a Bar Mitzvah!
-Hank
As long as it's not the Bris.
I believe the conductor is allowed to take tips. (ouch!)
GOOD ONE, SELKIRK!!!!
Thanks! I come here to seek ENTERTAINMENT, least I can do is provide some on occasion. :)
And Lawd knows, I've had plenty lately, just on the Amtrak side.
I asked a TMO once what they got for the "party train" and back in 1970, it was a couple THOUSAND dollars. SERIOUS, beaucoup dinero. I was told that a couple of those leases DID cover a wedding or two. August Belmont's "specials" lived for quite a while and I wouldn't be the least surprised if the TA still has a "rate card" to do a "car rental" that'd be downright astronomical today. But all they did was add the party car at the end of a train, cut it out, put a conductor on board for just that one car and voila ...
Like I said, MY kinda party, NY style ... brisket optional. :)
You can still rent a car at Branford for birthday parties. At least a trolley. I guess a rapid transit car would cost more money.
If 1689 got the Concourse yard mods (which I suspect it did since it lived on the D train for a good while) then let me propose this once I have some money to finance the trip ...
A *KEGGER* on 1689! And I know RIGHT where to hook up the keg too so it can benefit from the compressors ... the mods removed the motorman's pull-cord from the ceiling valve on the roof right by the M/M door ... a couple of pieces of 1/2 inch tubing and there'll be no need to operate a hand pump and it'll be good to the last drop whereupon there will be FOAM on the storm door as it vents empty. :)
If the pull-cord is gone and the valve is capped, we plug it right in there.
LOL.....ya know sumthin, Kirk, ever since I first read one of your posts, I knew there was sumthin I liked about you!
Hey, Kev! Those days are NOT over. A friend in NYCT told me some time ago that YES, you can rent a subway TRAIN! I don't know if you could rent a specific car, but whole trains are still available for rent.
I can see why the popularity might have fallen off. A single car (or one car of a married pair) was outrageously expensive. Ten cars would be astronomical. I guess they only do this on the G line now. :)
Nah...the Franklin Shuttle is available for a nominal fee (pssst -- Hey Kev, don't spread it around, but if you slide me a few 50's I'll let you own the line for a couple of hours!). ;-)
Heh. You mean you'd give up your "club car" just for ... moi? I'm honored! Only problem is after 12 minutes, the party's over. What's the fun in that? :)
A TRUE party train would do 207th to Far Rock and back. And with a real band. Then again, if that $50 means leaving a black bag with a set of wrenches and keys behind yon tree, I just might be interested after all. Heh.
It was the first OPTO Car. All the T/O had top do was put his hand out the windows to reach the Caps & Trigers.
Robert
Hahahahaha ... been to Branford, eh? :)
It's even more fun working the doors on 1689 when it's moving.:)
I forgot about that when I tpye the response to the post. I remeber that who they open the doors in the 1689. Dame I wish I could get back there one day, I miss the place. It's been at least 17 years since I been there.
Robert
You've been a BAAAaaaaddd boy. :)
Don't ya know that geese are like lemmings? They spot an open door and use the cell phone to call their attorney BEFORE they step off onto the ground? Heh.
Not only working the doors, but giving highballs with the buzzer. One of the other fellows was doing the buzz-buzzing. Eddie S. was getting impatient in the cab.
I got my kicks back then. If I do get to work the doors on 1689 come October, I will do so only when it's standing still at the high loading platform. Scout's honor.:)
P. S. If nothing else, I want to get a feel for those triggers when the car is charged. Maybe they won't be as stiff as the ones on 100 and 484.
The triggers pulled "like buttah" with very little force required - and you could feel the springs in them. Bottle caps felt the same with or without air, but you'll notice the difference once the locks release on the mechanism. They always slid nice and I'm sure the folks at Branford take good care of them.
Only place in the world where Arnines run OPTO. Heh. Reach out and close her down.
I doubt it's so in this case, but it was common to cut or add a single car at Coney Island at the beginning and end of rush hours.
That was the only thing I could think of but it just seemed so strange, one car. It looked like it was abandoned there. Thanks.
I believe that this car was used as some type of office.
I remember reading in one of my old ERA's from the seventies that an R10 was left at the end of one of the West End stub tracks at Coney Island for use as an office, or something of that sort.
Or it could be a car cut out because the B did run some R10's in the mid-seventies.
That's an active track. An office there would effctively cut the capacity of the entire B Line to 8 cars.
Then it's safe to assume that that R10 was laid up on the West End platform? The double semaphore from the IRT at the far end would be a dead giveaway.
That is West End Track G at Coney Island, if that's the question.
Yep ... hadn't noticed that on the first glance, but the "doubleheader" in the distance from New Lots was ... well ... one of a kind. Don't mind me, I remember when R10's were see on *ONLY* one line and it didn't go to Stillwell. Old concepts die hard I guess ... I was trying to imagine if that platform was Lefferts, East or Far Rock or some Shantyville at 207 yard. BMT land ... well, that's where R10's never DARED tread in my day. :)
It's interesting that you didn't notice the Culver and Brighton tracks curving away to the left. That's what gave it away to me instantly.
While I lashed up in the yardlet between the SeaBits and the West End, never set foot on that platform until I ended up there recently with HeyPaul. I *do* remember a platform below to the right departing, but it didn't look familiar with the angles in that shot until I spotted the twin-header ... the way Stillwell looked recently though gave me no clue.
I could give you all the nuances of Mosholu though at the Concourse yards. Spent WAY too much time there. :)
When did they take out those blind trips on the southbound Jerome Ave. line tracks just after Moshulu and before Bedford Park, and on the southbound tracks of upper 149th Street- Grand Concourse? How about the last day of operation of the semaphore signals at 180th St. yard on the 2 & 5?
I honestly have no idea, been out of da city since 1974, and haven't been up that way since.
I must have seen that location hundreds of times in person and photos, but my first impression was of some stub-end platform with yard tracks curving off to the left. Duh!
When the picture was taken, and this R10 was used as a locker car, the B was running 8 cars.
Just looked at this picture again, and I note the double semaphore in the background at the signal tower where I paid homage to adminiswigs many many years ago. Is this R10 sitting where the DUBYA train's been parking lately?
That R-10 was there because it was used as a locker car. Why, I'm not sure.
Bill "Newkirk"
It's been hijacked! (Sorry, couldn't resist)
This is a question I'm sure that the fabulous Paul Matus can answer:
When the Myrtle was on the ground, how far did it remain on the ground...heading south, I mean? Did it rise to an el structure at Broadway, or did it stay on the ground all the way to the Brooklyn Bridge, which I actually seriously doubt? Accepting that it probably rose to the el somewhere before Broadway (again, heading south I mean), where was the ramp to the el located?
While I am on the subject of BRT trains operating on the ground: Would the trains stop at the "stations" when the cord was pulled, or did the motormen stop regardless if passengers wanted to get off or there were passengers waiting at the "stations"? Plus, where did the trains actually stop? Just before the intersection, or somewhere on the block? I mean, how did they do this without causing traffic snarls? I know that there were much less automobiles on the streets in those days, but there are some pretty short blocks in Brooklyn...it seems to me even a two car train would cause havoc on the streets. One more question while I'm firing away...did the trains run on the trolley tracks, or were there 4 sets of tracks on McDonald (Gravesend Ave., I know, I know:)) Ave., for example?
Again, if there WERE 4 sets of tracks, wouldn't this have been an amazing hassle?
I've seen many old maps of the Ridgewood area that show the M line labeled as "Dummy steam line to the Lutheran Cemetery". I don't know where the M line originally came from before the Myrtle El. I know it ran on the surface from Myrtle-Wyckoff to Metropolitan before 1915, but at that point, it came off the el. The original el was built in 1888 I believe. Before 1888 I have know idea where this "dummy steam line" came from.
I often wondered that myself. I did ask that question a long time ago here, but didn't really get an answer. Hopefully someone here will know. And what exactly is a "dummy" line?
The "Dummy" Lutheran line opened from Wyckoff to Metropolitan in 1881.
In 1896 it was convertet to trolley operation. In 1906 it was connected with a ramp to the end of the Myrtle El so that El cars now ran on it. It was elevated around 1916.
I don't think the Myrtle Ave line west from Wyckoff to Broadway ever ran at grade. It was built as an El to begin with.
Thanks, that clears up a lot of questions I had about it.
Chris
Get a copy of Seyfried's "BRT Trolley Operations in Queens". They reprinted it in 2000, so there should be some copies around. There's a lot of info in it,
I'll have to look for that.
A dummy line was run by "dummy" locomotives. These were lcoomotives housed inside a streetcar-like body. This made a more acceptable appearance on the streets than a "naked" loco. It was supposed that one of these would not frighten horses. Really.
The term "dummy" came from street railway steam locos that had their exhaust muffled. It's the exhaust that horses don't like. Like all the other early attempts to replace horses as the power for streetcars, it worked, but not too well. Same for soda motors and early electrics.
That seems reasonable, but if it was just the exhaust, why were dummy locomotives always housed in a coach shell?
The contemporary explanations I've read state that the horses
were frightened by the motion of the rods and by the exhaust of
steam from the cylinders. The steam dummys had skirts to conceal
the rods and the steam exhaust was ducted away.
It's also been said that they didn't achieve their objective (of not scaring horses.
Either the horses were too smart to be fooled, or to stupid to realize they were supposed to be fooled. ;-)
I suspect that steam dummies, soda motors and early electrics all fell victim to operating expenses in excess to horses as motive power.
The engines used in steam dummies were small enough to fit in a small, single truck body, but unable to pull more than a single large horsecar. The steam engine was more useful in a central powerhouse driving an endless cable, but after 1888 all fell to Frank Sprague's superior electric car.
Paul, did the line revert to horse operation between the dummy stage and electrification?
This is a question I'm sure that the fabulous Paul Matus can answer:
I can resist anything but flattery. :)
When the Myrtle was on the ground, how far did it remain on the ground...heading south, I mean? Did it rise to an el structure at Broadway, or did it stay on the ground all the way to the Brooklyn Bridge, which I actually seriously doubt? Accepting that it probably rose to the el somewhere before Broadway (again, heading south I mean), where was the ramp to the el located?
The ramp was east of Wyckoff. The Myrtle was already (and always)elevated. Beyond the ramp the Myrtle used the pre-existing Lutheran Line, which was a steam dummy line that had since been converted to trolley operation. That is why the route is still called Lutheran Right-of-Way, and the yard Lutheran Yard. And all these take their name (I believe) from Lutheran Cemetery.
I don't know whether any of the original Lutheran right-of-way on the ground is still used (near Metropolitan) because the original Metropolitan Avenue station was moved 100 feet west when the adjacent LIRR line went through.
While I am on the subject of BRT trains operating on the ground: Would the trains stop at the "stations" when the cord was pulled, or did the motormen stop regardless if passengers wanted to get off or there were passengers waiting at the "stations"?
They made regular stops unless the station was a flag stop.
Plus, where did the trains actually stop? Just before the intersection, or somewhere on the block?
There were formal stations, onone side of the intersection, just like many LIRR stations today. However, the platforms generally consisted of a slightly raised cleared level area with a platform edge. If the line ran down the middle of the street, it might have a planked narrow "platform" which was really just a marker and an aide to stepping up to the el car steps.
There were a relatively few "nearside" stations, where the platforms were offset from each other so that the front car of trains going in each direction would stop before the intersection.
I mean, how did they do this without causing traffic snarls?
Generally the trains ran in the middle and the traffic to the sides. There wasn't much traffic to snarl.
I know that there were much less automobiles on the streets in those days, but there are some pretty short blocks in Brooklyn...it seems to me even a two car train would cause havoc on the streets.
A typical city block, curb to curb, would be something like 230 feet. A long el train was less than 250 feet.
One more question while I'm firing away...did the trains run on the trolley tracks, or were there 4 sets of tracks on McDonald (Gravesend Ave., I know, I know:)) Ave., for example? Again, if there WERE 4 sets of tracks, wouldn't this have been an amazing hassle?
The trolleys ran on the el tracks. In almost all cases the steam railroad/elevated line was there first. There were a handfull of locations where there was a third track in the middle for passing purposes.
One of the few surface four track stretches was the Brighton Line between Neptune Avenue and Brighton Beach, where the el trains ran on the outer two tracks and trolleys on the inner two.
I can't imagine these stations on Jamaica Ave during the BRT's brief surface service in 1903. Boy, I'd love to see pictures of this service in operation.
The books Tracks of New York the Brooklyn edition has great photos of surface running gate cars.
Holy Jumped Up Jesus From Joliet...
How do you DO it? :)
Thanks for the answers, Paul....
You are the Man.
One of the few surface four track stretches was the Brighton Line between Neptune Avenue and Brighton Beach, where the el trains ran on the outer two tracks and trolleys on the inner two.
Which trolley line was this?
Trolleys entered from Neptune (Emmons) Avenue from the east, and turned south toward Brighton Beach. This existed both before and after the 1907 GC eliminations and until the Dual Contracts GC eliminations.
Was this the Surf Avenue trolley (future B36)?
Did the Coney Island Avenue trolley ever run via Neptune?
Was this the Surf Avenue trolley (future B36)?
No. The predecessor of B36 was the Sea Gate trolley, which was different from the Norton's Point Line, which was the predecessor of the B74.
Did the Coney Island Avenue trolley ever run via Neptune?
No. The Coney Island Avenue Line, one of the original chartered roads to Coney Island, took approximately the same route as today, even though Brighton Beach Avenue didn't exist yet.
But the trolley that became the B36 operated via Surf Avenue, did it not?
What line ran through there (along the Brighton line)?
But the trolley that became the B36 operated via Surf Avenue, did it not?
Yes, from Sea Gate via Surf, and it turned north, IIRC, at W12. I'm not absolutely sure that this linearly became B36 (i.e., continuation of the same franchise) but it's a real good guess.
What line ran through there (along the Brighton line)?
I assume you mean via the switch at Neptune & Brighton r-o-w.
There were probably several in season. The only named route I know for sure used it was called something like Sheepshead Bay-Brighton Beach, from Ocean and Emmons via Emmons, Neptune, Brighton Line to the Hotel Loop. Real short line.
Sorry for the reply delay Dan, busy at "my place"
The "FLIVVER" IRT car bodies - appearing exactly like Low-V bodies externally, were the result of some unique circumstances on the old Interborough.
Being the IRT had a few accidents underground involving IRT Composite cars, proving they were not so "fireproof" nor structurally strong either, the PSC ordered those cars removed from being run interspersed with heaver steel car types, and removal outright from continuous subway tunnel
operation.
The Composites as new in 1902-3, were constructed in the Hi-Voltage control System mode. Thus they were compatabile with their soon arriving brethern, the all Steel Gibbs Hi-V cars with identical carbody looks--except for steel instead of wood car sides and ends, (Gibbs cars STILL retained the wood roof and canvas topping !!) and did not repeat the inward "sloping towards top" windows of the Composites.
The IRT had placed an order in 1914-1915 for new steel carbodies of the same style as the earlier 1910 type units ---and these new bodies-ONLY arrived during 1915. These cars were built by Pullman Company.
Back to to Composites - to outfit them for part time Manhattan & Bronx "EL EXPRESS" only service, for the then being expanded and thrid-tracked, El lines --the Composite Cars ---
(1)--- Had all their 1902-3 factory installed High-Voltage gear removed, including controlers
(2)--- Had their side windows opening characteristics reworked, lower sash now opened upward (per El car style use)
(3)--- 477 Composite Cars were equipped with low-V AMUE control and small Low-V type controllers
(4)--- Had "EL" type Headlights installed on roofs
and had their original 1902-3 trucks replaced with 'lightweight" Maximum-traction trucks custom-built by the IRT shops at 129th street placed under them, with ONE motor in each truck.
(5)--- Were retrofitted with new Tightlock couplers replacing original link and pin van dorn couplers.
Now, back to the FLIVVERS:
IN 1915, Low voltage control tests were being done by the IRT on new cars being planned for the Steinway (today # 7) line, using Low-Volt 32-40 volt batteries to send controller impulses to an undercar master controller.
Meanwhile, the Composite Cars were being stripped of their Hi-V system equipment for this new steel mainine IRT subway car Pullman fleet.
This allowed the original 1902-3 Hi-V Controls and systems of the Composites, and their trucks, to be installed to the new 1915 car body order, by the IRT shops, resulting in outfitting 178 new steel subway cars. However, these cars were not wired up in the traditional Hi-Voltage electrical system...and were operated with a Low-Voltage control system, still using the massive Hi-V cab controllers, but employed the Hi-V type Westinghouse Triple-R ME-21 AMRE braking-control system.
IRT Traditional Low-V cars used the Low-V ME-23 AMUE braking-control system
The Flivvers had Low-V 32-40 Volt Battery (Boxes) for Low-V type control use. They also had the Hi-V style Large Controller handle and cabinet in the M/M cab reworked for 3 points of power, like a Low-V car controller would have.
Because of ALL of these electrical and braking cross-patches, those 124 Fliver Motor cars (# 4037 to 4160) and 54 Flivver trailer cars (# 4161 to 4124) were not compatible to run NOR trainline with either of the two predominant control systems of the IRT, LOW-V system cars - NOR HI-V system cars -
These FLIVVER cars it was found, worked well only in certain train consist lashup arrangements....and they were kept coupled as same because earlier attempts to make up and break various Flivver consists, as was normal procedure for shortening and lengthening trains thruout the system, resulted in some strange and poor operating characteristics. So, cars in trainsets that ran well together, were by strict observance, kept in those trainsets, and stored in layup as same.
The Motormen and shop men called them "FLIVVERS" -in a somewhat demeaning way --but their official technical name was "Low-Voltage - AMRE". They were run as Seventh ave - Bronx Park & 180th St. expresses, as well as occationally on Lex- White Plains Rd express service.
Of course, at first they were fitted with the older IRT manual-pnuematic door controls of a type I earlier described here at S/T, (THREAD for control of Center doors at City Hall)-- and later in the 1920's, fitted with full electro-pneumatic MUDC door control boxes & wiring as you came to know on the NYCTA IRT Low-V Museum set
Near the end of their service lives, many were run as straight 10 car motor expresses, and were regarded as being "pretty damn fast" running sets.
They last ran in late 1962 on the IRT
Hope this long descriptive explained the IRT Flivver mysteries enough for all
Regards - Joe (Unca Joe--heh)
Joseph Frank - NYCTMG - NYCMTS - NYCMTA
Thank you, Joe. Now, as Paul Harvey said "Now you know the rest of the story."
Hopefully, Dave will put all of the wonderful info that you have posted into part of this site.
Joe,
Do you know how the notches worked with that C-6 Hi-V style
controller on the Flivvers? That controller has something like
6 series and 5 parallel notches. When used with the Flivvers,
how did that map to switching, series and parallel positions of
the Lo-V control group?
Hello Jeff---Re: our post ---your underlying motive, and your point being ???
Are you asking me because you want to convert the Deck Roof Hi-V at Branford to Low-V.?? I suggest you get a real, certified & licensed, High-voltage Master Electrical Engineer. Said person could show you how to rewire, cut out, and bridge redundant switching points to simplify a contact mechanism with 10 points...to possibly run off three !!
(I believe it was 5 series and 5 parallel, but its been a while for me with a Hi-V under my shoes.)
Its common work for low (not speaking trains, here!) voltage applications for multi point switches that can be down-graded to a few points...I have done it in the model train hobby.
In summer of 1960 I observed a motorman friend of mine from the (my) neighborhood operating a flivver set --with that big controller. I remember the smooth and fast acceleration and, unlike the hi-V's which i rode enough, there wasnt that lurching each time the Hi-V controller was notched up thru the 10 points (you said 11, 6+5...is that what the Deck Roof has???) - It sounded and felt like a Low-V controller point-sweep. I rode a whole round trip with him that day.
It should be obvious to you, being in Branford - that the old Interboro shops and men were capable of building a car new from the floor up, and did in many cases. Also, rewound motors, re-tapped motors, rebuilt and re-wired master and cab controllers, built their own trucks at times, outfitted most of their new rolling stock with electrical gear themselves ---outfitted and installed all the electrical equipment and ruunning gear in all the early H&M Tubes Black cars at the 3rd ave El 99th street shops, ran them light up to 129th street, over to 2nd Ave El, and tested them in MU thorughly on that line until ready for shpping back to the H&M to begin service---but OF COURSE Jeff, you already knew that, I am sure ---just what year was it???!!! And how did they get them to 99th & 3rd Ave El shops fromthe H&M !!?? ( I know !!)
So, what would be so hard for the seasoned Masters of mechanical and electrical transit engineering to re-work a High-V Controller to a Low-V function??? They took Hi-V Composites, and in their shops, totally rewired them for, and installed, a new low-V control equipment, new automatic couplers with air and primitive electric MU portions, installed AMUE ME-23 braking (from AMRE ME-21 per Hi-V use) - and you ask ME how could a Hi-V controller be made to work Low-V-????--obviously you need to find THOSE fellows, their working schematics, or people around today that THEY trained.
I got to know some old Interboro shop men at 239th St in the mid 60's -shortly after the Flivvers were gone, who told me what odd balls they were and a pain to maintain because of their special hybrid
electrical innards...these guys worked on it all, including the gate and MUDC el cars which had all HI-V manual acceleration (except a small class of elevated cars built in 1910-11 that were converted to Low-V Control in the 1920's, from Hi-V, and retained their original controllers and stands in Low-V operation but of course, now could NOT run with their fellow Hi-V control Gate & MUDC El cars. They were outfitted with the same Low-V system as the Composites were retrofitted with in 1914-15
So, Jeff, dont know what else to tell you, and neither I NOR you, is a certified high voltage electrical engineer, --I suggest you check with the true professional transit-car-overhaul people for your answer.
The only thing I cannot relate is if the modified Hi-V controller still had that heavy spring to prevent fast 10 point wrap around to start a train. I know on the Hi-V type El cars, a wrap around would "blow the cartridge" . But for the flivvers, they would not need the services the "spring" would provide in Hi-V Mode....when operating a puny battery 32 volts (compared to 600 VDC) in Low-V mode.
Regards the Hi-V and Low-V at Branford, sadly, the only thing you can couple together with those two cars are the air and the iron..as a push pull set!
Sorry I can't provide a tech answer for you, Jeff, but I am afraid the guys who ran it, repaired and overhauled it, bore witness to it all and spread and shared its technolgy accurately in words...are all dead or on the edge of it any day now. You are just a few decades too late at your time in life now.
Sincerely, - Joe
Joseph Frank
NYCMTS - NYCMTA - NYCTMG
Yeah, uh, I really just wanted to know how the controller was
operated....in other words, were there still the distinct notches
and if so, was it, e.g. 1st point == switching, 2nd-6 are all series,
etc? Just wondering if you ever saw a Flivver being operated
or otherwise picked up that bit of trivia.
I have the electrical prints for the High-V cars. The controller
was actually 6 series and 6 parallel points.
Branford has no intention of changing the deckroof control system!
We are a museum, after all! If I desired to make the Low-V and
High-V M-U, I know how to do it without changing anything
under the car, but it is a LOT of relays for the adapter cable.
STORY HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
My wife and I had tickets on trin 2250 from PHL to BOS on Saturday. Plan A, plan B and plan C were all vetoed by my wife, so we went with plan D, taking a NJT Atlantic City train due to arrive at PHL at 10:30, with train 2250 scheduled to leave at 10:37. Since official word was that no AE's would run on Saturday, I suspected that the substitute conventional train would be 15 minutes late and we'd make it. However, because of schedule disruptions on the Corridor, we had to wait 7 minutes for our meet at Cherry Hill with an eastbound Atlantic City train (single track), and when we got to Frankford Junction, we waited 10 minutes for an eastbound Amtrak train. Then we threaded our way over surface tracks through Zoo Junction, arriving at PHL at 10:47.
Train 2250 was in fact an Acela Express and WE MISSED IT. My three co-workers who got on the train at Metropark walked through the train looking for us and assumed we had sprung for the firt class fare when they didn't see us.
Posting from Boston, Loserbob.
Three cheers for Lee Miles! :)
I have come up with an idea for recycling the R-38/40/40M42s after the NYCTA T/A retires these cars. The cars should be sold to a city in a developing country that needs them for their own rapid transit system. Then when the T/A retires the R-44/66/68/68As they can sell them to the same developing country's city that has a rapid transit system. Then they also have good tech support available for the cars whoch is the NYCTA itself. Why scrap the cars when someone else with little money can actually use them.
#3 West End Jeff
Unfortunately you can't sell a rapid transit line to your taxpayers by saying "we can save money by using these s*tty 50 year old cars that New York doesn't want any more".
If I had the bucks, I'd take a few pieces of "carp" ... then again, most of what rolls on the local "Adirondack scenic lines" is WAY older than what the BMT Corporation "donated" to the war effort, so only 50 years old would qualify as "kiddies" around here. :)
Especially since most of them are rusting away from inside out, and in the case of some R38's, from the outside in as well. Face it, they're all scrap metal by 2010.
However, if anyone has learned a lesson from the R30 retirement and the recent R142 problems, the TA should MOTHBALL some R32's beyond their retirement date....just in case.
I'm asking myself the same question with the R-26's/28's/29's and 33's that are currently being retired. Most likely, those cars will be sent seaworthy as well, though I wonder if stainless is as beneficial for reefing. There has to be a better way....
Dont forget that the 36s are also going... but what you say has one Very Fatal flaw... IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!! THE REDBIRDS WOULD NOT EVEN BE ABLE TO MAKE THE TRIP...now the R27-30s might...(Much better cars than the current redbirds)
Besides, what developing country would use the 8.5 by 51 scale?
If they have the money to build the line, couldnt they buy the cars?
Stainless Steel has much better salvage-resale value than rusted out carbon steel.
Elias
That is true. Maybe the T/A should sell the stainless steel of those cars rather than to "reef" them.
#3 West End Jeff
NYCT is still likely to encounter the asbestos problem that the "Redbirds" had. If so, it makes economic sense to reef the cars rather than scrap them, if someone will take them for reefs. Remember, a bunch of "Almond Joys" (Philadelphia Market-Frankford cars) were reefed several years ago, and those were Budd stainless-steel cars, while these are mostly St. Louis cars that are not fully stainless steel (roofs, ribbing, etc.).
David
The newer cars do not have asbestos in them. I am not sure of the 32s or 38s, but the rest ought to be new enough not to have major aspestos problems.
Actually I do not think the ta would scrap the stainless, but might find a buyer for the cars who would then scrap them for the stainless and other valuables. The absence of the asbestos (if that indeed is the case) would make this a more attractive option to potential scrappers. I think that it would cost the ta too much in manpower to do the actuall scrapping themselves. TA workers get paid a heck of a lot more than workers in some scrappers yard.
Elias
There is asbestos in everything up to and including the R-46s. IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
Makes sense. I rather hope they keep the R-32's around for awhile yet. Speaking of stainless steel cars, when were the R-11's/R-34's scrapped? I know 8016 was involved in an accident, but it seems a shame to have scrapped the other eight cars, and only save one for the museum.
I think that the R-11/34s were scrapped in 1981 if I'm not mistaken.
#3 West End Jeff
youre not
It would be good to see them stay in service, but I think residents of the cities would rather have modern cars for their new subway systems (even if you can't see out the front of them).
I say we keep the Units and convert some to work cars or just sell the parts.
Comment from TA official of Developing Country Rapid Transit...."Why would I want save money buy to used subway cars that was soon to be die out while I could use the money to buy some new high tech fleet other than R142 ,143 and 160
The family and I got back late last night from our week-long visit to Phoenix. Greeting me on my return were over 500 junk messages on my Yahoo e-mail account :o I'd just love to know how I got on so many mailing lists ...
Anyway, a couple of observations on the trip. I had thought that there was some construction in progress on the East Valley light rail project, scheduled to open in 2006, but the first actual construction won't start for about another year. Not to sound like a voice of doom or anything, but I don't quite see how light rail would work particularly well. It will be centered on Downtown Phoenix, which just isn't a major employment center, at least not to the extent that you'd expect of a big city's downtown. The (very upscale) suburb of Scottsdale seem to be as least as large an employment center, and it's not on the planned route. Still, no one would have thought that light rail would do so well as it has in Portland and Denver, so maybe there's hope for Phoenix.
Second observation: The JFK Airtrain must open as soon as possible!!! Few experiences can rank with arriving at the airport at almost 11 pm following a 5-hour flight, and then having to wait 20 minutes for a filthy, smelly, grossly overcrowded shuttle bus to the long-term parking area - to add insult to injury, empty Airtrain cars could be seen making test runs overhead as this vile Bus From Hell slowly lumbered along. If the geniuses at the Port Authority don't get their act in gear and vastly speed up the pace of work on Airtrain (why not 24/7 work schedules as with the WTC cleanup?), it will be a train to nowhere when it opens because most JFK traffic will have shifted to EWR or elsewhere.
A few other observations:
1) We had great expectations for our day trip to Sedona, a mecca for retirees and new-age types in the beautiful red rocks country of north-central Arizona. The scenery was fine, that much is true, but the town was the worst sort of tourist trap imaginable, full of shops peddling overpriced souvenir crap. Avoid Sedona like the plague.
2) Because our flight out on August 11th left early in the morning, we stayed the night at the Doubletree hotel on Rockaway Boulevard near JFK. It was an absolute dump, with tiny rooms, slovenly staff members who pretended that they couldn't speak English, a location in a scary-looking ghetto neighborhood, and (believe it or not!) a strong smell of human waste in the hallways.
3) Note to America West airlines: I understand that cost-cutting is essential these days, but you've gone a bit too far when the entire food service on a four and a half hour flight (JFK to Las Vegas, continuing on to Phoenix) consists of a half-ounce bag of peanuts. Thank you.
4) People in Phoenix definitely aren't night owls. Most of the (many) restaurants in the trendy Downtown Scottsdale district were closed by 10 pm on a Saturday night.
[Sedona] was the worst sort of tourist trap imaginable, full of shops peddling overpriced souvenir crap.
Been there, done that. Visit Oatman some day... still a tourist trap, but there actually are some decent stores with decent quality souvenirs, and a couple of antique shops with reasonable prices. Another tourist trap town, Sedona style, is Williams, where the Grand Canyon Railway meets the BNSF main, although we did find a decent local burritos-and-beer joint for supper.
[The Doubletree] was an absolute dump...
So was the Doubletree in Denver where I stayed last September... not quite as bad but close.
America West
Next time try Delta - going to Las Vegas you can change planes in Salt Lake City and on the return there's a nonstop redeye into JFK. I flew that route a couple of times when my older daughter and her family lived there. I took Continental into Phoenix last year (they live in Kingman now) from Newark and that was the pits, both ways, although Trans Dogpatch to Kingman via Prescott wasn't too bad.
People in Phoenix definitely aren't night owls.
That seems typical for Arizona, no matter where you are... not sure why, because it doesn't seem to be restricted to the retiree areas. Not that it bothers me... I'm not a night owl either, unless it means getting a shot of Amtrak at the Kingman depot at 0200h, with a BNSF work train on the adjacent track :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Sedona] was the worst sort of tourist trap imaginable, full of shops peddling overpriced souvenir crap.
Been there, done that.
Not that Sedona is a successful tourist trap. It was practically deserted when we were there last Wednesday.
Which isn't to say that Phoenix was mobbed. We stayed at the very luxurious Arizona Biltmore, taking advantage of bargain off-season rates - less than 1/3rd the winter rates. Even so, only 17% of the rooms were occupied (my stepdaughter asked). It actually was a little creepy, with scarcely anyone to be seen around the hallways or grounds. It surely gets much more crowded in winter despite the higher rates, of course.
Now Sedona's more of a year-round destination, so the lack of tourists in summer may be indicative of a real problem. I suppose the word has spread that it's a place to avoid.
Next time try Delta - going to Las Vegas you can change planes in Salt Lake City and on the return there's a nonstop redeye into JFK.
America West actually wasn't bad, the scanty food service notwithstanding. We originally had wanted to take Southwest, which would be very convenient as we're less than ten miles from ISP, but oddly enough their fares were no bargain. It would have been something like an extra $450 if the four of us had taken Southwest.
People in Phoenix definitely aren't night owls.
That seems typical for Arizona, no matter where you are... not sure why, because it doesn't seem to be restricted to the retiree areas.
I speculated that it's because most people in Phoenix get home from work fairly early. Even during rush hours, traffic was quite light by New York standards, and of course no one is yet tied into train schedules (on topic at last!)
Anon:
You mentioned the Grand Canyon Railroad in Williams. Maybe you can answer this for me. Nobody has answered on the Scenic & Tourist Railroad board at Railroad.com. They advertise steam engines. Yet when we saw it at the G.Canyon there was a steam engine up front with two diesels behind. Do you (or anyone else) know why? Was it for backup, or for extra power? Seemed a little strange seeing a consist of three locomotives, one steam, the other two diesel.
Don't know, Jeff. When I rode (March of 2001) we had just the diesels for power, the steamer wasn't in service. You can find a few pictures at Anon_e_mouse's Home Page, click on the link for Arizona - March 2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>> They advertise steam engines. Yet when we saw it at the G.Canyon there was a steam engine up front with two diesels behind. <<<
This is just speculation, but since the steam engine is so prominent in their advertising, they may have put it on the head end (to prevent refunds) even if there were problems with it which would prevent them from building up enough steam to pull the train. They may fire it up with just enough pressure to have puffs of steam come from the engine and smoke from the smokestack, and most of the passengers would not realize the engine is not doing any work.
Tom
A practical move on the part of the railroad.
I seem to recall scenes in the early 1950's or perhaps even the late 1940's, of steam locomotives being helped by diesel units to pull long, heavy freight trains.
You didn't visit the Arizona Street Railway Museum in Hance Park, just north of downtown Phoenix? Aaaarrgh!
In fact, ASRM is one of the most bizarre trolley museums I've ever been to. Imagine a museum with a 300' line, running a lightweight car on 250v using mainly Square-D electrical components and rebuilt Bettendorfs as trucks, and you've got the feel for ASRM. Pretty neat, eh?
Frank Hicks
you did not see the museum pcc car either ?? at central station ..??
............................!
>>> Most of the (many) restaurants in the trendy Downtown Scottsdale district were closed by 10 pm on a Saturday night. <<<
That's not just Phoenix. While staying in one of the best hotels in Santa Fe (La Fonda), I looked for a place to eat at 10:00 P.M. The restaurant in the hotel was already closed, and the hotel staff told me that the only choice at that time of night was a Dennys on the highway into town. And that is the capital of the state.
In Los Angeles, if you get a sudden desire for pizza at 3:00 A.M., you are pretty much out of luck.
Tom
As a frequent America West Las Vegas-JFK flyer (until recently), I was also annoyed at the loss of "real" food on those long flights, but from what I understand America West is far from alone. I hear that most airlines have pretty much done away with meal service in economy class.
By the way, you didn't really make it from JFK to LAS in just four and a half hours, did you? That would be amazing. It would be about average for the return trip, west to east, but headed westbound that's usually about a five and a quarter hour flight due to the headwinds. I've done that route dozens of times, and I think the shortest westbound I've ever had was 4:50....the longest was a ridiculous, leg numbing 6:08, with the seat belt sign on the entire way.
Anyway, welcome home!
As a frequent America West Las Vegas-JFK flyer (until recently), I was also annoyed at the loss of "real" food on those long flights, but from what I understand America West is far from alone. I hear that most airlines have pretty much done away with meal service in economy class.
We knew that the flight was going to be "snack service," but thought that the snack would be something a little more substantial than a half-ounce of peanuts. You get more on Southwest or JetBlue.
On the return flight, which was PHX-JFK nonstop, there was meal service. The main item was a chicken parmagiana sandwich, actually more like a Hot Pocket, but I ordered a vegetarian meal* and got a very nice tofu-mushroom kebab.**
By the way, you didn't really make it from JFK to LAS in just four and a half hours, did you? That would be amazing. It would be about average for the return trip, west to east, but headed westbound that's usually about a five and a quarter hour flight due to the headwinds. I've done that route dozens of times, and I think the shortest westbound I've ever had was 4:50
Our JFK-LAS flight actually was just a shade under five hours. The captain announced that we were running ahead of schedule.
* = I'm not actually a vegetarian, but ordering a special meal on an airplane usually gets you something better than sticking with the standard food service. Many people supposedly order kosher meals, but I didn't think it would be proper to do so.
** = what with all the talk about increased sercurity, I noted with some amusement that the wooden skewer on my kebab had a very sharp point and would've made a dandy weapon.
Many people supposedly order kosher meals, but I didn't think it would be proper to do so.
As a general rule, a kosher meal on an airplane isn't particularly good. I order them because I will not eat pork, nor will I eat meat and dairy products together - the "spirit of kashrut", if you will - although we don't keep strictly kosher at home (no separate dishes, etc.), and vegetarian meals tend to involve this strange green plant commonly known as broccoli, which I am thoroughly convinced is an alien plot to destroy the human species :-) The last plane ride of my life was on United, though, and they did have an excellent kosher lunch; in all fairness, the meals that the other passengers were receiving also looked much better than the standard airline fare, so I would have to say that they place a higher value on pleasing the customer (at least at mealtime) than other airlines I've flown.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The last plane ride of my life was on United
??????
That sounds sort of morbid ...
Sorry... but I've never felt all that comfortable in an airplane, even though my father owned several small planes and I spent many hours flying with him as a child. Now, with all the added hassles going through security, I've decided that flying just isn't worth it... if I can't drive or take the train I don't need to go there. Maybe there are a few places I won't get to see as a result, but there are plenty of places that I will see because I'm not flying 40,000 feet overhead so I guess that makes up for it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry... but I've never felt all that comfortable in an airplane, even though my father owned several small planes and I spent many hours flying with him as a child. Now, with all the added hassles going through security, I've decided that flying just isn't worth it... if I can't drive or take the train I don't need to go there. Maybe there are a few places I won't get to see as a result, but there are plenty of places that I will see because I'm not flying 40,000 feet overhead so I guess that makes up for it.
Many people have the same feelings. But really, all the talk about security hassles is mostly much ado about nothing. I haven't had any significant delays on any of the flights I've taken since 9/11 and don't know anyone else who has. You could say that airport security screening is sort of like having teeth pulled - everybody talks about it as something terrible, there are plenty of horror stories, but in actual fact it's not all that bad when you go through it. I just don't see what all the fuss is about.
In addition, the fact remains that unless and until the United States develops a nationwide HSR network (i.e. never), flying is basically the only way to get around unless you really enjoy long road trips. And it's of course essential for overseas travel.
Well, I've heard enough of the horror stories myself, including from my older daughter... she was travelling to a family reunion with my grandchildren and was delayed getting to Chicago, missing the last flight out of the night to Grand Rapids. When she and the children returned to Midway the next morning and were going to go through security, she and her boys (ages 5 and 2 1/2) were escorted into a room by a female guard and she was strip searched in front of the children. Supposedly another passenger pointed her out to security because she was "acting strangely". Given that I occasionally set off metal detectors due to the amount of metal in my right leg, you can imagine the hassle I'd have.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Even without horror stories, the trouble with air travel is that between getting to the airport, being 2 hours early, takeoff delays, waiting for checked baggage (now more necessary than ever) etc., a 4 hour flight is a 9-10 hour trip.
what with all the talk about increased sercurity, I noted with some amusement that the wooden skewer on my kebab had a very sharp point and would've made a dandy weapon.
I've flown twice since 9/11, both non-reving in Business class on Delta and they give you metal forks and spoons, and a plastic knife. How many butter knives have killed anyone, ever? The fork looks more dangerous to me.
what with all the talk about increased security, I noted with some amusement that the wooden skewer on my kebab had a very sharp point and would've made a dandy weapon.
I've flown twice since 9/11, both non-reving in Business class on Delta and they give you metal forks and spoons, and a plastic knife. How many butter knives have killed anyone, ever? The fork looks more dangerous to me.
That's the FAA for you. Knives of any sort are taboo, but many other potentially dangerous objects are okay.
Of course, the kebab skewer is a special case ... the typical hijacker is likely to be familiar with kebabs, if you catch my drift :)
Wow, we spent a week in Phoenix/Scottsdale earlier this month (as I said in earlier posts) however we(or I should say I) drove. After hearing some of your flight JFK airport experiances I'm glad I did. None of our rooms were as bad as you described the Doubletree!! Here's where we stayed:
Going:
Knights Inn at a T/A truck stop in Old Washington, Ohio
Just outside Tulsa,OK
Holbrook, Az
Coming Home:
Somewhere on I-15 in Utah between Vegas & Salt Lake City
Laramie, Wyoming (the 55 degree temp was refreshing after the 111 in Scottsdale)
Iowa City, Iowa
We then drove all the way from Iowa City stopping at Chicago to see the els and then Cleveland to see if we could find Drew's friend Mimi!!!
A great trip. The only negative was we spent the day in Vegas after leaving Scottsdale and left at 11PM thinking we'd get a room outside Vegas. Well we went 300 miles until 5AM until we found the first vacancy.
My son Arthur (he's 6 now) loved the trip especially after we bought some Dranamine in Indianopolis. By the way, would you believe we found a White Castle in Indianopolis?
P.S. I am going to put the one picture we took of the Chicago El on the page where I put the Vegas Monorail so click here. I'm going to scan it now so it should appear about 5 minutes after the time of this post. I was never in ChiTown before so I have no idea where we were. We just got off the interstate and drove around so maybe David Cole or someone else can say where it is!!!
Wow, we spent a week in Phoenix/Scottsdale earlier this month (as I said in earlier posts) however we(or I should say I) drove. After hearing some of your flight JFK airport experiances I'm glad I did. None of our rooms were as bad as you described the Doubletree!!
The flight experience actually wasn't bad, with the very notable exception of the JFK shuttle buses (bring on AirTrain!). The flights and airports all were very crowded, but I actually saw that as a hopeful sign, given the airline industry's post-9/11 woes.
I suspect it would be very, very difficult to find a lodgings establishment worse than that hideous Doubletree. Maybe an old hotel on the outskirts of Karachi ... no, probably not.
We just got off the interstate and drove around so maybe David Cole or someone else can say where it is!!!
Southbound State Street at Roosevelt Road, looking towards the Green Line / Orange Line 'L' station. Southbound Orange Line train of 3200-series cars stopped at the station.
[takes a bow]
-- David
Chicago, IL
Thanks Dave, it was a little detour off I-80 coming from Vegas to NY!!!
It was just a matter of time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/16/nyregion/16UNIO.html
Quick synopsis (from someone else):
Mr. Toussaint filed his suit in Federal District Court in Manhattan,
and a hearing is scheduled for Thursday to determine whether Mr. Hall
should be enjoined from bringing internal union charges against Mr.
Toussaint.
Last week, Mr. Hall sent a memo to Mr. Toussaint criticizing
statements to the news media in which he said that Mr. Hall had warned
workers at three private bus lines in Queens against going on strike
because any walkout was bound to last a long time.
Mr. Hall also criticized Mr. Toussaint for saying that a union rival
allied with Mr. Hall had fomented the seven-week strike, which
involved 1,500 workers and inconvenienced more than 100,000 riders.
Many bus workers were angry about missing seven weeks' pay and failing
to make major gains in the contract.
[...]
This story is a few years late.
The Cliff Notes version is
New Directions beat Sonny Hall's boy Willie James.
Roger is looking to charge the old officers (allied to Hall) with every kind crime and has gotten money back form some of them.
TWU 100 of which Roger is prez is the largest component of the TWU and was under the thumb of the National for several reasons (mortgage and HBT being the biggest).
At the National convention last year the stated goal was to try and break Hall's rule and they will likely try again next convention.
They don't really like each other, never did, and Roger had been criticized for not being more aggressive so this keeps his 'street creds'.
There is very little new here.
Tuesday, August 20th is Blue Day. We wear blue TWU shirts and hats out of safety zones to show unity. Problem is that our unity exceeds our unions executive officers. TWU wants a show of force to shake TA up BUT they are so stupid in not realising TA and TWU have a common goal: safe work, good work, decent wages and medical benifits to keep good employees active on the job. Twenty one years of empty promises on my last employment with only excellent medical benifits to keep me about...those medical benifits gave me access to New York Universities best doctors and a major change in my health and the TA opening cost them their best employee. I am CED! CI Peter
I've always wondered what the best fleet in the system is, I've come down to 4 models.
R-62/68 from the Concourse and Mosholu Yards are superior with their MDBF.
The R-142A on the 6 Line are extremely good.
The R-32 from either Pitkin or 207 Street yards, run beautifully, their old, but they can run!
The other models are good, but the best fleet in the system comes down between the R-62 and the R-32, they are excellent.
For the current fleet, my vote goes to the R-32s. Budd really outdid themselves and turned out an outstanding product.
R-32s are definitely the best as of now, as they may even run for 50 years. However, it will be interesting to see how the R62 and R142A perform. The R62s won't need the kind of overhaul that the redbirds had, which is a good sign. So farthe R142A has had limited problems for a new train, so hopefully they can get 40+ years out of it as well. -Nick
I'd imagine the R68's MDBF's make them the most reliable, and therefore, the "best" in the system. They will probably never need the costly GOH's their predecessors needed. One wonders how well all of the surviving car classes would run had the "SMS" concept taken hold in the early 60's.
I can think of only 3 NYCT subway stations that are named exclusively for neighborhoods and not for streets. This excludes stations that have both, like "Canarsie - Rockaway Parkway" on the L. They are:
Cypress Hills (J/Z),
Broad Channel (A/S), and
Far Rockaway (A).
Can anyone think of any others?
Howard Beach
Broad Channel
Brighton Beach
Sheepshead Bay
On the same line, Prospect Park (a park, not a neighborhood, but not a street either, and large parks are in a way akin to neighborhoods). Similarly, Pelham Bay Park.
Gettting back to neighborhoods, also Morris Park (which is a neighborhood, despite the name). Willets Point, perhaps -- I don't know what the name refers to, but it's not the boulevard.
Far Rockaway will not do -- it's also named Mott Avenue.
The neighborhood name in Jamaica-Van Wyck is necessary to disambiguate it from the next stop on the line.
Of course, neighborhood-named stations are commonplace in many other cities' systems.
"Willets Point, perhaps -- I don't know what the name refers to, but it's not the boulevard."
Why not? The Blvd is just beyond the east end of the station; the actual Willets Point is at the far end of the Blvd, maybe half a mile away.
The station's name was originally Willets Point Blvd before Shea Stadium was built.
>>Why not? The Blvd is just beyond the east end of the station; the actual Willets Point is at the far end of the Blvd, maybe half a mile away. <<
The actual Willets Point is actually several miles away, near Fort Totten.
Willet's Point is Fort Totten. Fort Totten is the facility, Willet's Point is geographic location on which it's built.
And what's weird is that the section of Willets Point Blvd, east of Utopia Pkwy, that actually goes to Willets Point is now signed as "Cross Island Parkway", though the exit from the Clearview Expwy still reads "Willets Point Blvd".
:-) Andrew
The actual "Willets Point" is near Fort Totten. That's why the long, diagonal stretch of road that starts at Union St. is called Willets Point Blvd.
Although a TINY fragment Willets Point Blvd. is indeed near the station, it's just a short, ugly, barely paved and not-so-maintained street with a bunch of ugly car repair shops and junkyards. Who the hell would want to take the subway there? I think the station should be renamed "Flushing Meadows Park - Shea Stadium."
The actual "Willets Point" is near Fort Totten. That's why the long, diagonal stretch of road that starts at Union St. is called Willets Point Blvd.
Although a TINY fragment of Willets Point Blvd. indeed exists near the station, it's just a short, ugly, barely paved and not-so-maintained street with a bunch of ugly car repair shops and junkyards. Who the hell would want to take the subway there? I think the station should be renamed "Flushing Meadows Park - Shea Stadium."
Sheepshead and Brighton are steets (under the el) as well as neighborhoods.
Did anyone mention the terminal "Coney Island"?
Coney Island is also called Stillwell Avenue, so that one doesn't really count.
:-) Andrew
We're not counting any terminals. Almost all of them have been assigned nerighborhood names in recent years as a supplement to their original street names.
But the TA officially puts the neighborhood ahead of the street name now. Like "Wakefield - 241st Street" on the 2 or "Norwood - 205th Street" on the D.
Or "Flushing - Main St. Station" on the 7.
The exception, however, is "82 St. - Jackson Heights" on the 7.
The exception, however, is "82 St. - Jackson Heights" on the 7.
The implication given by this station name isn't accurate--both 74th St. and 90th St. - Elmhurst Ave. are within Jackson Heights and 69th St. and Junction Blvd. demarcate the corners.
Dan
Sheepshead and Brighton are steets (under the el) as well as neighborhoods
Yeah, but the stations are not called Brighton Beach Road or Sheepshead Bay Road.
Might either or both of these stations have been named for the nearby racetracks of the late 19th Century?
Maybe Brighton Beach, but there the racetrack was closer to Ocean Parkway I believe and the Brighton Beach Hotel was there first and was thus the real namesake of the area.
Sheepshead Bay Racetrack was nowhere near Sheepshead Bay station. There was a dedicated spur for that. That's why Avenue X does not cross the Brighton line today.
Might either or both of these stations have been named for the nearby racetracks of the late 19th Century?
I can think of only 3 NYCT subway stations that are named exclusively for neighborhoods and not for streets. This excludes stations that have both, like "Canarsie - Rockaway Parkway" on the L. They are:
Cypress Hills (J/Z),
Broad Channel (A/S), and
Far Rockaway (A).
Can anyone think of any others?
Howard Beach/JFK Airport (A/S).
Woodlawn (4).
Debateable: South Ferry (1/9).
"Woodlawn (4)."
Actually, even though Woodlawn is a neighborhood, the station is not named for the neighborhood, which is nearly half a mile away. Rather, it is named for Woodlawn Rd., which is the main road leading into Woodlawn Cemetery (which is only a neighborhood if you stretch the definition).
Actually, even though Woodlawn is a neighborhood, the station is not named for the neighborhood, which is nearly half a mile away. Rather, it is named for Woodlawn Rd., which is the main road leading into Woodlawn Cemetery
I would argue with that. The station was always called "Woodlawn," for Woodlawn Cemetery. The destination signs on the trains also always said "Woodlawn" until the R-types were delivered. "Woodlawn Road" was apparently used as the TA went head-over-heels to think of street names to replace place names on destination signs. Quite a few people remarked at the time that "there is no Woodlawn Road."
Now maybe there is a Woodlawn Road in the cemetery, but that is hardly an appropriate destination. Hagstrom does not show a Woodlawn Road inthe Bronx, nor does Mapquest.
I don't think Woodlawn Road exists.
I believe that Woodlawn's official name was "Woodlawn - Jerome Ave." until they started re-naming terminals for their neighborhoods a few years ago.
CG
I think it was always "Woodlawn"
The platform signs, in the old Aksidenz subway font, say Woodlawn.
I stand corrected. But still, it;s a stretch to call Woodlawn Cemetery a neighborhood. It's population according to census criteria is 0.
Bainbridge Avenue, which intersects with Jerome Avenue at the station, was originally called Woodlawn Road.
[" The destination signs on the trains also always said "Woodlawn" until the R-types were delivered."]
What destination signs before the R-types. I thought the only IRT's with destination signs were the World's Fair Low V's. Unless I'm wrong the regular Low & High V's didn't have signs.
No front destination signs, but they had plate metal side signs, and they said "Woodlawn," not "Woodlawn Road."
>>>>Now maybe there is a Woodlawn Road in the cemetery, but that is hardly an appropriate
destination. Hagstrom does not show a Woodlawn Road inthe Bronx, nor does Mapquest. <<<
"Woodlawn Road" is a golden oldie from the 1910s. It was renamed Bainbridge Avenue sometime after that. Apparently, the lil' ole TA signmakers were using very old maps. Thing is, some of the newer black and white info signs along the Jerome Avenue line STILL have Woodlawn Road....
www.forgotten-ny.com
But the weirdness about it is that it wasn't called Woodlawn Road any more when the TA began putting up the Woodlawn Rod signage.
You're all missing a big obvious one-
Roosevelt Island.
Of course, with one exception, all of the stops on the SIR are named for neighborhoods, most of them clearly defined if you look at how the areas developed.
-Hank
on the SIR are named for neighborhoods
I would say for "towns" (or more properly in NYS, "hamlets"), but I remember when SI was a lot less populated, and the "towns" a lot more discrete.
How about LIRR and Metro North Stations not named for neighborhoods (or villages, towns), but named for Streets instead:
Merillon Ave.
Nassau Blvd.
125th Street
Merilon Avenue
Nassau Blvd.
Broadway (That's a weird one! It's named for Norhtern Blvd, which hasn't been called Broadway for many, many years now.)
Any others?
:-) Andrew
Just thought of another one:
Merrit-7 (For the Merrit Parkway and US 7)
:-) Andrew
Merrit-7 (For the Merrit Parkway and US 7)
The station is adjacent to a big commercial development called Merritt-7. I'm not sure if the development was named after the station or vice-versa.
The station is actualy owned by Merrit 7 Corporate park, its only station not owned by MNCW or CDOT and has no railroad markings on it.
But there is still a Broadway in Queens! Does the station go anywhere near it?
But there is still a Broadway in Queens! Does the station go anywhere near it?
Nope! The LIRR "Broadway" station is in Auburndale (or Eastern Flushing), Norhtern Blvd and 164th Street. The real Broadway in Queens begins at the East River in Astoria, through Woodside, Jackson Heights, and Elmhurst, and ends on Queens Blvd. and Grand Avenue. The Broadway LIRR station is probably 3 or 4 or 5 miles from the Queens Broadway at its nearest point.
:-) Andrew
Not even close! Actually someone mentioned here a while back that the area at the Broadway LIRR station was actually called "Broadway". I forgot the thread that it was under, but that's what I remember reading here once.
NO!!!
How about Higbie Avenue on the LIRR Far Rock line? Sure, it no longer exists but since when does that matter to railfanners? :)
If we're going to count stations no longer existing, then here's a long list just from the LIRR's Atlantic Ave. line!
Wow! That must have been the milk run!
:-) Andrew
Centre ave on the Long Beach branch
Flatbush Av, Nostrand Av
Glen Street
Many stations of the SEPTA Regional Rail lines within the city of Philadelphia are named for streets- particularly the R7 to Chestnut and both ends of the R8, which never leave city limits. These branches resemble subway lines (especially the Sea Beach and Dyre) more than commuter rail. Stops are very close together on the two Chestnut branches, which makes naming them for streets more practical than naming them for neighborhoods. Philly neighborhood identity seems stronger in the northeast (R3 and 7) than northwest, anyway.
Until 1983, the R8's Fox Chase branch did have passenger service extended beyond its current terminus to Newtown, deep in Montgomery County. But both Chestnut branches seem to end flush at their terminals. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of ROWs extending beyond them.
Logistics and cost may be why these lines were never transferred over to the subway system, although the Broad Street line is in close proximity to all three in places. But relatively low rates on SEPTA's regional rail make using commuter rail within city limits much less expensive than taking the LIRR to outer Queens or MN to the upper Bronx.
Other branches of Regional Rail with stations with the city have stations named for streets as well. Outside of Philadelphia city limits, all regional rail stations seem to be named for townships or boroughs, save for maybe a couple on the R2 in the Chester area.
The Norristown line has a station called Spring Mill, a neighborhood (or perhaps a "village", Pennsylvania's equivilent to NYS's unincorporated Hamlets) in the Township of Whitemarsh.
:-) Andrew
The Norristown stations are named for streets....Elm, Main, and DeKalb (Norristown T.C.)
The reason the Chestnut hill lines were never converted to subway has to do with low ridership. The lines don't get enough people to justify heavy rail subway. The R8 is the more heavily traveled of the two, but it also had several freight customers along the line south of Queen Lane. Now, the only one left is Budd, and they are closing that facility down. Also, the demographics, land density, and income levels of the Chestnut Hill area are not ideal for heavy rail. You have mostly a white,car-owning, upper class, suburban area. Not enough potential riders to justify a subway. The population is much denser towards Germantown.
The CH East (R7) was planned to be taken over by the City and incorporated into the rapid transit network in the 20's. It would have joined the Broad St subway at the junction north of Olney (part of which exists today as an upper-level turnback). At the time, that part of the City was still being developed and transit was not as extensive as it is today. The only parallel rail line was the 23 trolley on Germantown Ave.
The West (R8) line served a more affluent area than the East (and this holds to some degree today), thus it would have been more difficult to 'sell' this as a subway line. As you noted, there was also more freight activity on the West line, although there were several coal yards and other customers on the East line during Reading days.
By the way, most of the station names along both East and West lines are street names (the main exceptions being the terminal stations, and Germantown and Wayne Junction on East).
The Newtown service was a very low ridership line...similar to the Cynwyd line today. For the record, Newtown is in Bucks County about halfway between Doylestown and Philly. The line isn't electrified beyond Fox Chase, so the RDG (and later SEPTA, for a short time) operated a one-car diesel powered coach unit. Service was pretty limited, and ridership was low enough to fit into one diesel-powered car.
Newtown (like Cynwyd, for that matter) has great potential since development in the area has exploded in the past 10-15 years. While a great deal of the new residents work in the New York area, there is still a market for transit especially as an alternate to crowded I-95. SEPTA is stuck in the typical political quagmire here, with Bucks County wanting train service but neighboring Montgomery County, in which about half of the line north of Fox Chase lies, pushing to keep service off the line. In the meantime, a good deal of the R/W has been used for trails and other purposes.
SEPTA had come up with a scheme to tie the outer end of the line to the West Trenton/R3 (they cross at grade near Bethayres) and electrify it the rest of the way to Newtown, but there were political problems with this as well. The death knell was probably the institution of the 301 and 302 bus routes several years ago, which 'replaced' the rail line, both failing miserably since the parallel roads did not provide a straight-line service and even the most die-hard transit folks couldn't deal with them. The net result is that R3's parking lots are among the most crowded on Regional Rail, even after significant expansions, and most of this crowd could be served by a revitalized Newtown service.
How's Cynwyd, Pennsylvania, pronounced? The North Welsh pronunciation "Kunooeed" or the South Welsh pronunciation "Kinooyd" or something different?
Kin' wid.
Kin' wid
However, most Philly radio and TV "personalities" mispronounce it Kin' wood.
There was at least one intrepid TV reporter who, for some unknown reason, called in 'Kine' wide'. I think she only did it once (considering her employer has its HQ right there!).
Ironic. The shortest self-standing Regional Rail Line branch is getting a thread all its own because of its end terminal's pronunciation.
Hard "C" ("K" sound), "Y"'s are pronunced as short "I" (as in "is"), "N", "W" and "D" are as they normally sound. Thus, we have the last stop on the westbound R6 line - Cynwyd
BTW, Cynwyd is still considered separate from Bala-Cynwyd. The more upscale area halfway to Gladwyne (including the former Barmouth station) is Cynwyd. Bala-Cynwyd is what once was considered Bala itself.
That is always how I have heard it pronounced, including people who live there.
There is no Cynwyd, PA. Only the Regional Rail station is named Cynwyd. The name for the unincorporated town is Bala-Cynwyd (Kin-wid). Both the Bala and Cynwyd RR stations are there.
There were originally two separate sections of Lower Merion Township called Bala and Cynwyd which somehow merged together to form Bala Cynwyd. I'm not sure if it's incorporated, but it is a recognized name in the eyes of the Postal Service which has assigned it a zip code (19004).
If it was incorporated, it would be shown on city maps as a separate little area divided from surrounding Lower Merion. It isn't, it is just a named section of Lower Merion township. It can still have a postal code, incorporation normally just concerns government and tax issues.
For example, Bala-Cynwyd doesnt have a mayor, and there is no Borough or City of Bala-Cynwyd. It's government figures are the township leaders of Lower Merion Township.
30th Street (Of course, this is the obvious one)
Market East (It counts)
North Broad
49th Street - R3 (can't believe this was overlooked)
Fairplay/Chruchman's Crossing - R2 (it's named "Fairplay Station at Churchman's Crossing, and it's at 1 Fairplay Blvd...)
Lamokin - R2
Highland Avenue - R2
Philmont - R3 (maybe)
Woodbourne - R3
Whitford - R5
Wynnefield - R6 (This could be named for Wynnefield avenue (which the station is often erroneousl called and listed as) or for the West Philadelphia neighborhood it rests in)
Allegheny - R6
Main Street, Norristown - R6
Elm Street, Norristown - R6
Washington Lane - R7
Gravers - R7
All of the R8 chestnut Hill West line except Chestnut Hill West itself
Ryers - R8 (I think. There is a Ryers Avenue in the vicinity, but it parallels the line)
Closed Stations named for streets:
Nields Street (renamed West Chester University) - R3
Shawmont - R6
County Line - R8 (This may have been named for the county line itself, not County Line Road
Lastly, these station names seem to be... mysterious. If anyone knows, has any ideas or theories, or anything regarding the origin and reasoning behind the names of these stations, please respond and let me (and anyone else who has no idea) know.
Moore-Prospect Park - R2 (only the "Moore" prefix; I know Moore was the original name, but where did THAT come from
Fulmor (formerly on the R2)
Neshaminy Falls - R3 (if it's named for the creek, where are the falls?)
Daylesford - R5 (gnore the listings, there is no Daylesford Road at the station, the street crossing under the tracks is Glen Avenue
Suburban Station (I've no idea where that came from, the sation's in the dead center of Philadelphia, and it no longer uses the "Penn Center" prefix)
Fellwick (formerly on the R5)
Fortuna - R5
Link Belt - R5
Barmouth (formerly on the R6)
Ivy Ridge - R6
Mogees (formerly on the R6)
Fishers (formerly on the R7)
Wister - R7
Stenton - R7 (Nowhere near Stenton Ave.)
Sedgwick - R7
Village Shires-Buck Road (formerly on the R8)
Another closed one is Westmoreland on the R8.
"Suburban Station (I've no idea where that came from, the sation's in the dead center of Philadelphia, and it no longer uses the "Penn Center" prefix)"
When Suburban Station was built, the PRR still operated out of Broad Street Station, which was the main station downtown.
Suburban was used to distingish between the two.
Old Broad Street was closed down in 1952, can't remember the exact date, and the station building and "chinese wall" which supported the tracks came down soon after.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
Suburban Station (I've no idea where that came from...
That's where you got the trains to the suburbs.
Many of the names in your 'mysterious' list are either old towns, developments or sections of towns that have long since changed. Daylesford was a town on its own at one time (the Daylesford Abbey, a quarter-mile down Valley Rd, remains as the only thing in the area besides the station with that name, as far as I know). Link Belt was the location of a factory belonging to a company of that name.
Ivy Ridge is a neighborhood name in Phila (the Ivy Ridge Shopping Center is just up the hill on Ridge Ave and there are other business namesakes, and the old phone exchange in Roxborough was IVyridge (predecessor of the current 482, 483 and 487 exchanges)).
Fishers, Wister and Sedgwick are street names (Fisher Ave was also commonly called Fishers Ave). Stenton is a neighborhood (there are two Stenton Ave's in this part of Phila, with one (the lesser-known)running alongside R7 for a few blocks just out of Wayne Junction.
Suburban is covered in another posting.
Is the Link Belt company still in business? I've been wondering why they chose that name instead of the obvious choice of Line Lexington (which is where the sation is) And I knew about the lesser-known Stenton Avenue
Here's something: Highland gets so few riders, yet it wasn't closed when either Westmoreland or Fishers, Fulmor, Fellwick and Shawmont were. Is that because of the "In case of CTD strike" backup option, or something else entirely?
Not sure if Link Belt is still in operation. There was a movement to change the name to Line Lexington some time back but I don't recall what happened with it (obviously it wasn't successful?!).
Highland is in a very exclusive area of Chestnut Hill and has remained in service despite several attempts to close it. I believe it's only a flag stop outside of peak hours. (Sort of similar to the reasons that R6 Cynwyd's 300 +/- daily users have managed to keep their train service!)
Even back in the late 1960's and early 1970's, the Highland station was a flag stop.
Northbound, after leaving St. Martins (Lane) the conductor or trainmen would announce: "Next stop Highland, is there anyone for Highland". More often than not there was nobody getting off at Highland, so the conductor could "buzz" the enginemen to "fly" past Highland.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
Link Belt was a heavy equipment manufactuer. The factory/warehouse that still stands was relatively new when Link Belt's new owner FMC decide to close it down in the late 1970's.
As for the Link Belt station, during the RDG days, it was no more than a high pile of cinders; however, there was a passing siding located there. It was a stop for a few trains in the morning and afternoon to accomodate plant workers. In the late 1960's, the RDG scheduled a train that actually ended its northbound run and began its southbound run at Link Belt. It would be my guess it was to accomodate employees of Link Belt, as the first train east to Doylestown didn't pass there until after 8 AM.
From the Reading Company employee timetable effective 2:01 AM on 2/1/1969 and revised 10/10/1971 the following:
Train #405 arrived in Lansdale on the Doylestown Branch at 7:34 AM. The note in the schedule column reads: "Run extra Lansdale to Link Belt and return to Lansdale and operate No. 408."
Train #408 was scheduled to leave Link Belt at 7:48 AM and run extra to Lansdale. It is my recollection that #408 did make a stop at Colmar; however, that stop is not listed in the employee timetable. I was rooting around my boxes of public timestables, but have not been able to put my hands on a Doylestown Branch table. I stopped looking after the first landslide of boxes.
The Reading did carry quite a few "reverse" communters from North Philadelphia in those days. These city dwellers worked at the now defunct Philco plant located west of Pennbrook station, the now defunct American Olean Tile Company plant in Lansdale, where I spent 25 years of my working career, and of course, Link Belt.
As to the name Line Lexington, the village of Line Lexington is at least a mile north the station along County Line Road. That name would not be appropriate.
A name that could be considered now is County Line Road. When the Newtown Branch was operating, the name County Line was used for a station located on that branch, but the Newtown Branch is long gone, and the County Line Road name could be used.
I doubt if Link Belt gets many passengers as it is located just .7 miles east of Colmar, which now has a high level platform and an expanded parking lot.
Jim K.
Formally of Philadelphia
I think SEPTA has been considering an expanded parking setup at Link Belt, to respond to the heavy demand it has at other stations on the line.
County Line Road might work as a name, but considering how long County Line Road is (and how many County Line Roads there are in the area - the 100/Norristown line has a County Line stop), maybe there's a better name. I suppose most riders have become accustomed to Link Belt. ?
Naming it County Line would result in a semi-addition to the list of confusable (is that a word?) Regional Rail Line station names. The confusion wouldn't come so much from the name, but from the fact that there once was a Regional Rail station by that name (on the R8 Newtown line), that's now closed. Some folks might think it was reopened, especially since they're on the same County Line Road
Other mixes:
West Chester and West Trenton (very rare, but I've heard it, West Chester's closed anyway)
Trenton and West Trenton
Wayne and Wayne Junction (why?)
North Wales and North Hills
Oreland and Oregon (the amazing thing isn't that Oregon isn't even a Regional Rail Station, but the fact that people can't distinguish the pronunciation)
Fortuna, Fort Washington, and 49th Street (Rarely does 49th Street enter the equation, thanks to the 13 trolley, but during the last strike... ouch)
Colmar and Bryn Mawr
Highland (Chestnut Hill West - R8) and Highland Avenue (Chester - R2)
Chestnut Hill West and Chestnut Hill East (however, mention the line associated with each, they understand clearly)
Newark, DE, and Newark, NJ (problematic when you consider they're both out of state. Mention NYC, they can find NJ easily)
Wynnefield, Wynnewood, and Wyndmoor (how?)
Lansdowne and Lansdale (HAHAHA!)
Since this is primarily a topic on Subway stations, why not add some of SEPTA's?
Okay, so it's very few of them named for neigborhoods, but there are some named for some landmark. Bear with me.
MillbourneFrankford Transportation Center (unless the Bridge-Pratt name remains after the construction is complete, so this is tenative)
City Hall
Chinatown
North Philadelphia
(Maybe) Hunting Park (the neighborhood nearby is named Hunting Park, so is the massive park itself)
Olney (debatable)
Fern Rock
If we can count Route 100 and the trolleys (101 and 102, NOT the Subway/Surface lines): Forget the 100, too many mixes (Ardmore Junction, anyone?), but the trolleys will work.
Bywood
Beverly Hills (very amusing at times)
Drexel Park
Drexel Hill Jct.
Aronimink
Drexelbrook
Drexeline
Springfield Mall
Pine Ridge
Bowling Green
Garrettford
Drexel Manor
Oakview
Clifton-Aldan
Collingdale
Sharon Hill
I'm doing DC next... oh boy...
The R8 to Chestnut Hill West runs every 30 minutes during the week and slightly better during rush hour; this is probably SEPTA's single best commuter rail line.
The R5 to Thorndale/Paoli/Malvern also has good service.
The best service among Regional Rail is the R1 to Philadelphia International Airport. 5:30 AM to 11:30 PM, every 30 minutes, every day.
R5 Bryn Mawr/Paoli/Malvern/Thorndale runs best during peak hours, as well as 30 minute frequencies from Philadelphia to Malvern, Monday through Saturday. (With no actual pattern to which trains will run all the way to Thorndale)
R5 Lansdale/Doylestown and R8 Chestnut Hill West service runs every 30 minutes during weekday midday hours and slightly better during peak periods. However, service between Landsale and Doylestown is hourly, and every other R8 train skips North Philadelphia
Everything else is hourly except during peak hours. (Except for Sunday service on the R8 Fox Chase and R7 Chestnut Hill East, which is every 2 hours each, trains from either end run to Trenton.)
The R6 Cynwyd (this may belong in its own thread) barely runs outside peak hours, and doesn't run weekends at all. Quite a few years ago, the line actually had Saturday, but no Sunday service.
Glen Street on the Oyster Bay.
Main Street-Flushing sort of fits into that. The station isn't just called "Flushing", so I guess it counts.
Main Street-Flushing sort of fits into that. The station isn't just called "Flushing", so I guess it counts.
It's so named because there used to be another Flushing station on the Whitestone line.
That was the Fulshing - Bridge St. station.
Which street is Bridge Street today?
Nope, it doesn't. My original thought involved stations named ONLY for neighborhoods, and don't have "hybrid" names. Otherwise, 71st-Continental/Forest Hills would apply too.
On the LIRR
Centre Ave.
Nostrand Ave.
Glen Street
Broadway
Nassau Blvd
Merillon Avenue
Flatbush Ave
CG
Wow! I have been away from Long Island a while now. Before I moved to Queens two years ago, I would have gotten all of those easily.
:-) Andrew
Outside NYC, we can also play the game of LIRR stations that are actually named for neighborhoods as opposed to villages. There are 3 in Nassau that I can think of...
How about those named after businesses? (Country Life Press)
Outside NYC, we can also play the game of LIRR stations that are actually named for neighborhoods as opposed to villages. There are 3 in Nassau that I can think of...
Well, there are many named for unincorporated Hamlets: Hicksville, Syosset, Wantagh, Massapequa and many more in Nassau. Harstsdale, Chappaqua, Katonah and many others in Westchester, and many others in Suffolk, Putnam, Dutchess, Rockland and Orange. But neighborhoods? Lesse...
LIRR:
Westwood
Gibson
Hempstead Gardens
Metro-North:
Ludlow
Glenwood
Philipse Manor
Mt. Vernon West
Fleetwood
Crestwood
Honorable mention goes to Stewart Manor on the LIRR. There is a Village of Stewart Manor, but the RR station isn't in it. It's just over the line in Garden City (which has five stations all together.)
:-) Andrew
Actually Mastic-Shirley on the LIRR is in Shirley. Mastic was abandoned many years ago, and I guess since it was next to Shirley, called it Mastic-Shirley. It should really be Shirley-Mastic.
This is also sort of interesting on the LIRR. Bellport's LIRR station was originally on the Mainline at Bellport Ave (formerly "Bellport Station Road") and Long Island Ave on the mainline (Ronkonkoma Branch). That location is actually in Medford, but the station was called Bellport Station, then I believe Bartlett (whatever that is).
The current "Bellport" station on the Montauk Branch at Station Road and Montauk Hwy only opened when the Montauk Branch was extended from Patchogue. It is actually in North Bellport, not the Village of Bellport. And Station Road in North Bellport was actually named for the station on the mainline, not the current Bellport Station that is there now. Stage-coaches would take people from the Village of Bellport up "Bellport Station Road" to the MAINLINE "Bellport Station".
The LIRR's Northport station is nowhere near said village. It's in East Northport (which is really SOUTH of Northport), an unincorporated hamlet in the township of Huntington.
Huntington station is nowhere near the unofficial 'village' of Huntington, which isn't a village at all, but a hamlet. Huntington Town Hall is in the 'village', and the area around Main Street and New York Avenue gives the illusion of being an official downtown when it really isn't. You could say it is the center of town, and you wouldn't be wrong- at least not according to New York State government guidelines. Oyster Bay, Smithtown, Riverhead- and to a lesser extent, Islip- are also townships with distinct non-village downtowns built around their LIRR stations
The area around the LIRR is really Huntington STATION, another unincorporated area of said township. The reason for Huntington's "station" designation monicker was originally to indicate the presence of the railroad and to distinguish it from the 'village'. That distinction has become socio-economic as well in recent years, with the contrast between the wealthy 'village' and the mix of middle class, blue-collar working class and small areas of poverty in the 'station'. Some local cynics say South Huntington is a relatively new term referring to the better areas of Huntington Station whose residents want to disassociate themselves from it.
Right you are, except that in New York State, townships are called "towns". I grew up in the Town of Hempstead.
:-) Andrew
Funny, but if you say you live in Woodmere, Hewlett, Oceanside, Merrick, Bellmore, Wantagh, East Meadow, Franklin Square or lots of other hamlets within the town of Hempstead, nobody blinks. But if you say you live in the town of Hempstead, people think of the heavily impoverished village of that name and say "Eeww! You live in HEMPSTEAD?!" (For the record, Hempstead Village actually does have some pleasant, middle-class sections.) The name of Hempstead is so maligned that there was a movement afoot to rename the wealthier hamlet West Hempstead to Mayfair because West Hempsteadians claimed their reputations and property values were suffering by association.
Some people who live in the hamlet Massapequa are unaware they also live in the town of Oyster Bay: "But this is the SOUTH shore! Oyster Bay's all the way on the NORTH shore!"
My hamlet in the Town Of Hempstead was Levittown, a working class suburb that people also like to disasociate themselves from. Many in the southern reaches of the hamlet insist they live in Wantagh or Seaford. (And after all it is not really clear where to draw the line...but if you live in a Levitt house within the Town of Hempstead and the Levittown school district you're pretty much in Levittown.)
:-) Andrew
The reason for Huntington's "station" designation monicker was originally to indicate the presence of the railroad and to distinguish it from the 'village'. That distinction has become socio-economic as well in recent years, with the contrast between the wealthy 'village' and the mix of middle class, blue-collar working class and small areas of poverty in the 'station'
That's true in Bellport also. The area around the station and north of it became known as "North Bellport", which is a pretty run down area. There is no official zip code for North Bellport, but it was probably a way for the affluent Village of Bellport to sever themselves from the very poor and blighted North Bellport Area. It's hard to imagine that the real Bellport (fairly affluent), south of the Railroad actually is home to many famous people like Charlie Rose and Isabella Rosalini (Ingrid Bergman's daughter), even many famous people like Mick Jagger and Madonna have summered there, and the area north of the railroad is very run down. It's the classic "right and wrong" side of the tracks scenario.
Those are the 3 I was thinking of.
In addition to Stewart Manor, about 2/3 of the East Rockaway station is actually in Oceanside, and the station building (when there was one -- it was knocked down about 5 years ago) was in Oceanside as well.
Six, if you include Clinton Rd. Oops, that's a firehouse now but years ago that would've counted!!!
How about Nassau Gardens? Is there such a village? By the way, what are the 3 in Nassau that you are thinking of?
Nassau Gardens? I guess you probably mean Hempstead Gardens.
MisterK quickly made mincemeat of my game with Westwood, the aforementioned Hempstead Gardens and Gibson.
CG
You're right. My mistake. Is there a village called Hempstead Gardens?
No, it's just a neighborhood (and I'm not even sure that it's even a neighborhood). It's really just part of West Hempstead. I don't think that people who live near the station would tell you they live in Hempstead Gardens -- as opposed to people who would tell you that they live in the Westwood section of Malverne or the Gibson section of Valley Stream.
CG
How about current NJ Transit stations named for streets?
Watsessing Ave on the Montclair Branch
Highland Ave on the M&E
Anderson Street and Essex Street on the Pascack Valley Line
Broadway on the Bergen County Line
Rowe Street and Walnut Street on the Boonton Line
Jersey Ave on the Northeast Corridor
Of course, I should have changed the subject to: "NJ Transit Stations Named For STREETS", not Neighborhoods"!
Route 128, MA.
AEM7
How about "Excange Place" station in Buffalo?
heh. I missed that one. I guess that is a valid Amtrak Station.
AEM7
This one's stretching it a bit, but how about "30th Street" station (Philadelphia)?
La Grange Road, IL
30th Street counts for Amtrak/NJT/SEPTA, as one of few railroad stations among all three agencies to be named for a street as opposed to the surrounding community.
Hey, what's Metropark named for?
Hey, what's Metropark named for?
A parking lot - literally. The station's original name was Iselin, after the town where it is located, but a large (for that area and time) parking lot was constructed adjacent to the station and it was renamed Metropark, the idea being that people would drive there on the Garden State Parkway (which runs just east of the station), park their cars, and ride into Manhattan. Now there's a huge parking deck in addition to the big lot.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Uh...Humboldt/Hospital, kinda.
Others without street names:
Auditorium
Fountain Plaza
Theater
South Campus
:-) Andrew
Auditorium refers to a building....a closed building at that.
Fountain Plaza is like WTC or Times Square. There are actual addresses there.
Theater refers to the theater district, which is a one block pseudo-neighborhood.
South Campus refers to the southern campus of UB; not a true neighborhood. (The neighborhood is called University Heights.)
Humboldt refers to Humboldt Parkway, a legitimate street. (The neighborhood here is Hamlin Park.)
We can add Lafayette (for Lafayette Square; similar to Fountain Plaza above) to your list.
Watchung Ave and Mountain Ave, also on the Boonton.
CG
Here are a few from the New Haven Line:
Cos Cob
Noroton Heights
Saugatuck (Westport)
Greens Farms
Southport
-Nick
Parkchester
Pelham Bay Park
Parkchesters real name is, E. 177th Street/Parkchester.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yep, its a hybrid. Out it goes.
Parkchester is actually an apartment complex built by an insurance company in the early fifties. The surrounding neighborhood came to take on its name, kind of the same way Fresh Meadows did.
The Pelham el along Westchester Avenue was built in the teens. In the intervening years, the station was just known as East 177th Street, which now gets lower billing. The Cross Bronx Expressway overlaid East 177th Street when it was built through the east Bronx in the fifties and sixties. For many years, addresses along the service road were still designated as "East 177th Street", but in recent years have pretty much reverted to "Cross Bronx Expressway". In casual conversation, it's referred to as "the service road."
Old Bronx numbered street designations die hard. Even though it's officially Nereid Avenue on all street signs and maps, many local residents still call it 238th Street. There might be a few that call Bedford Park Boulevard 200th Street.
Why did they change 200th Street and 238 Street? They should at least put 238 Street signs from 240 Street/Mclean Avenue and Webster Avenue/Bronx River Road to White Plains Road. Some maps call it E 238 Street and Nereid Avenue. E 238 Street still does exist on maps and street signs in Woodlawn.
Was Dyckman St also called 200th Street? Why do they always have to get rid of the numbers? There should be a 200th Street it makes no sense to skip that number.
E 177 Street still exists in Throgs Neck and West Farms and some other places (including near the Sheridan Expressway)
It's like "Jenna's law" or "Amber alert" ... numbers are so ... impersonal. Welcome to touchy feely reaching beyond gubbamint service and touching you personally. :)
None of these streets had numbers. The fact that the stations used numbers was for consistency with the neighboring stations.
Your ideas run afoul of some people on this board who feel (myself included) that Queens should not have gone to a numbering scheme.
Queens' numbering scheme is generally allright, but I don't know why they had to make nearly every local street numbered. Why were all the colorfully named streets in the Sunnyside/LIC area changed to numbers? Couldn't we have kept Bliss Street? Van Alst? Ely Avenue?
:-) Andrew
That's exactly what I think! The truth is the numbering system works well when you have a grid like Manhattan. For the most part you don't even need a map to get around Manhattan (forget lower manhattan). In Queens the system is so screwy, that you would need a map anyway, what's the difference if you are looking in grid G4 for Ely Ave or 23rd Street, either way you have to use the map.
Well, again most of the Queens numbering IS a good thing. In Queens and parts of Brooklyn there is a great, useful standard street address system with the cross-street hyphenated with a one or two disgit number indicating the distance from the cross street.
:-) Andrew
I saw a 1980s map at Pelham Bay Park that had the first part of that street from Webster to White Plains Road was called 238 Street. The rest of the street after WPR was called Nereid Avenue. Someone else even mentions that the street changes namnes several times from Mclean Avenue, to E 238 Street, to Nereid Avenue. Type E 238 Street in mapquest and you will eventually get some Nereid Avenue addresses, just like E 177 Street gets some Cross Bronx Expressway addresses.
I'm sure they could put Nereid Avenue somewhere else, or just split the street's names in half (like before or like what I just mentioned from the 1980s map)
This is the Bronx, not Queens, it makes more sense to have E 238 Street instead of Nereid Avenue. I hope they keep the 238 Street signage when they rehab the station. And the missing 200th Street doesn't make any sense either.
Similar to 6 Avenue (aka the Avenue of the Americas)
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There might be a few that call Bedford Park Boulevard 200th Street.
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You ever seen the New York Botanical Garden's address?
...and even fewer that call it Corsa Avenue.
Bedford Park Blvd. in History
In 1868, it was mapped as Corsa Avenue when it ran from present-day Concourse to the nothern end of Fordham University, which had been the Corsa property. After annexation to NYC, it was numbered 200th Street, but acquired its present name in 1906. as it once formed part of the extensive Leonard Jerome estates, it is conjectured an associate of his, Edward Thomas Bedford, is so honored. Mr. Bedford was a director of Standard Oil and president of of the Bank of the State of New York. The Corsas were landowners ever since Dutch days, and traced their ancestry to Hendrik Christianson Cortinsenze. The Corsa burial plot, unmarked, is directly east of St. Johns Hall on the University grounds.
Excerpted from History in Asphalt, by John McNamara. (Bx. county historical society, 1991
(sorry for the late response, I just came across this info)
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW there IS a Corsa Avenue somewhere else in the Bronx(now) by Boston Road(and #5 Dyre line)
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&address=corsa+avenue&city=bronx&state=ny&zipcode=&homesubmit=Get+Map
If they ever get it into their heads to rename/double name BMT stations, they can dip into the past for (among many others) South Midwood, Parkville, Manhattan Terrace, South Greenfield, Bensonhurst, Bath Junction.
Well If you want to get techincal, you can say basically every station except for 1 along the S.I.R. route. It's apart of the system. Other then that if you want Subway, Prospect Park is another one in the books, followed by Times Square. Would the World Trade Center area count?
Actually I think Times Square was actually named by the IRT because the TIMES was there, and they actually had two stations on 42 Street. I'm not sure if the IRT actually named the station, and then Longacre Square became Times Square, but it all seemed to happen around the same time.
Interesting that you mention that. I read somewhere that when the Times Square station opened in 1904, the IRT conductors announced the station as "Broadway and 42nd Street" rather than as "Times Square." Apparently the IRT was not certain how long the Times would remain at that location and didn't want its conductors to get used to making announcements that would eventually be wrong. The Times eventually raised a squawk and the conductors started to announce the station as "Times Square." I'm not sure about this but I don't think any of the tiling that says "Times Square" at that station was not there on October 27, 1904 but was only added later.
On the contrary, the original 1904 section of the Times Square complex, the shuttle station (which was never lengthened), is identified in the tileage only as Times Square (IINM).
Would Roosevelt Island count? It's originally a geographical entity named Welfare Island, but once it became residential in the mid seventies, it's become a neighborhood name as well.
They could've named the station "Main Street", which is the only named street on the island, but that might've somehow caused confusion with Main Street, Flushing. But then, there are several cases of duplicate station names for unrelated streets with the same names in different boroughs:
Broadway- Brooklyn (G); Queens (N,W)
Fulton Street- Manhattan (1,2,4,5,J,M,Z); Brooklyn (G)
Grand Street- Manhattan (S); Brooklyn (L)
Park Place- Manhattan (1,2); Brooklyn (S)
Prospect Avenue- Bronx (2,5); Brooklyn (M,N,R)
7 Avenue- Manhattan (B,D,E); Brooklyn (F)(Q)
8 Avenue- Manhattan (L); Brooklyn (N)
23 Street- Manhattan (1,2)(4,6)(A,C,E)(F,V)(N,R); Queens (E,V)
33 Street- Manhattan (6); Queens (7)
36 Street- Brooklyn (M,N,R,W); Queens (E,G,R,V)
50 Street- Manhattan (1,2)(A,C,E); Brooklyn (M,W)
59 Street- Manhattan (1,2,A,B,C,D)(4,5,6); Brooklyn (N,R)
77 Street- Manhattan (4,6); Brooklyn (R)
79 Street- Manhattan (1,2); Brooklyn (M,W)
86 Street- Manhattan (1,2)(4,5,6)(A,B,C); Brooklyn (N)(R)
103 Street- Manhattan (1)(4,6)(A,B,C); Queens (7)
Ever see the "Brodaway" tiling at the IND Broadway station? Pretty cool. I'm surprised it was never fixed.
One of the tablets say "Brodaway"? Wow, I never noticed that! How in the world could that have happened?
IIRC wasn't the first name Bedlowe's Island (not sure of the spelling), then Welfare Island, now Roosevelt Island.
It changed to Blackwell's Island before changing to Welfare Island
Here is the timeline:
Click Here for History of Roosevelt Island
It was Blackwell's Island since the colonial times (it had a different name under the Dutch and the Native Americans).
Silly me ... I thought "Bedloe's Island" was where the Statue of Liberty is located. Got a LOT bigger than it originally was, which is why, as it intruded closer and closer to Jersey, Jersey laid claim to it. Bedloe's Island was a huge landfill with a neat national treasure on it as a gift from France ...
Bedloe's Island (yes, Liberty Island since 1954) was always its current size. Its posession by New York was part of an 1830s agreement where New York took the islands, and the NY-NJ border moved to the middle of the Hudson River.
Actually, once upon a time it was MUCH smaller than it is today. It was its expansion (don't know WHEN it happened, but part of the historical record as well as the court papers associated with New Jersey's SUCCESSFUL lawsuit for tax assessment of the island) towards New Jersey since originally "chartered" that caused the island to be awarded in part to New Jersey.
Check the court papers on the lawsuit of a couple of years ago, there were maps published of its ORIGINAL size at the time New York got it and currently although I don't recall the details. But it DID get bigger than it originally was and that was the basis of New Jersey winning ...
Kevin, I think you're confusing Ellis Island with Liberty Island... Ellis Island was significantly enlarged by landfill and, per the court decision, all the landfill area is part of New Jersey (as rightfully is Ellis Island itself, but the court goofed on that part).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yep, looks like you're right and my gearbox has once again slipped. Where I got jammed (no excuse) is that Ellis Island is part of "Statue of Liberty National Monument" under the US Park Service, combining both islands into a single entity ...
http://www.nps.gov/stli/
But you're still right despite the "convergence" ... I *believe* though that New Jersey, by merit of the linkage is entitled to revenue from the Statue of Liberty's facilities or has some kind of dual ownership compact ...
No, but they split the sales tax collected in the Ellis Island gift shop (even though it's located in the portion of Ellis Island that the courts have assigned to NY).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry I didn't keep up with the story. Not quite what I remember from back when it all happened, but no surprise that there weren't further negotiations. But yeah, got things a bit mixed up. I gotta get out more often. Heh.
Bedloe's Island (yes, Liberty Island since 1954) was always its current size. Its posession by New York was part of an 1830s agreement where New York took the islands, and the NY-NJ border moved to the middle of the Hudson River.
Queensborough Plaza.
The area at the foot of the bridge below the station is named Queens Plaza, so it isn't named for the streets which the station stands above.
How about the Greenpoint station in Brooklyn? -Nick
No such station. There's a Greenpoint Avenue station, named after a street.
Thats true, it is Greenpoint Avenue. However, Greenpoint Avenue runs through Greenpoint, Brooklyn. It's not like you get off that stop and suddenly you are in Bedford Stuy. -Nick
Indeed, but reread the original post, asking for "subway stations that are named exclusively for neighborhoods and not for streets."
Do buildings count? Borough Hall and City Hall.
How about Times Square, Herald Square and Queens Plaza ?
Times Square, Herald Square, and Queens Plaza count as street names, IMO. They are official names for the streets in certain areas.
I can't believe nobody mentioned East New York on the IND.
Although I'm not positive, maybe someone can help, but I think Eastern Pkway/Bway Junction only refers to the BMT stations upstairs.
Since a year ago, Broadway Junction is the official name of the entire complex. (It used to apply only to the L station originally.)
Until then, the IND station was Broadway-East New York, as reflected in the original wall tiles. I'm afraid I see a street name in there.
I think the IND station "East New York" always had "Broadway" in it's name, but it also always had East New York in it's name also, so I guess it counts).
Officially, the whole station complex is now called "Broadway Junction" (done not that long ago). The signs on the J/Z platform no longer say Eastern Parkway, they now read Broadway Junction. (not sure about the A/C platform's signs). Of course the little IND tiles on the walls will remain.
Of course the little IND tiles on the walls will remain.
I'm hoping someone will have the bright idea of simply adding JUNCTION tiles underneath the existing BROADWAY tiles. It'll fit perfectly.
I've no idea if DC was done already. So here I go. DC has the interesting mix of some named for landmarks, some for streets, and some named for the neighborhood in which the station lies. Since it's for neighborhoods, not streets, and no hybrids, this will be easy. Just divide by line. Also, I know that Street/Neighborhood hybrids don't count, but what about Landmark/Neighborhood hybrids? If it was originally just neighborhood name (i.e. Vienna), then it goes in.
Red:
Rockville, Twinbrook, Grosvenor-Strathmore, Bethesda, Friendship Heights, Takoma, Silver Spring, Forest Glen, Wheaton, Glenmont
Orange:
Vienna(-Fairfax/GMU), Dunn Loring-Merrifield, West Falls Church(-VT/UVA), East Falls Church, Ballston(-MU), Clarendon, Rosslyn, Deanwood, Cheverly, Landover, New Carrollton
Blue:
Capitol Heights, Rosslyn, Crystal City, Franconia-Springfield
Yellow:
Huntington. Short list, huh?
Green:
Greenbelt, West Hyattsville, Columbia Heights, Anacostia, Congress Heights, Suitland
I'm not sure as to use "landmark" or "neighborhood" for Fort Totten, Waterfront-SEU, Navy Yard, Federal Triangle, Cleveland Park, Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan, Eastern Market, Judiciary Square, or Federal Center SW. I think Shady Grove is named for nearby Shady Grove Road, and Metro Center defies explanation.
This was taken from Destination Freedom.
Four photos – NCI: Leo King
Editor
Last week was a nightmare for Amtrak and its Acela Express trains. All were out of service for a time, but two sets were back in revenue service on Saturday operating between Boston and Washington via New York City, and on Sunday, Amtrak said it would restore 30 Acela Expresses on Monday as federally-approved repairs have been completed on one-half of its fleet. The carrier said it ran 11 express trains over the weekend, “introduced without public notice to passengers who were expecting slower, regional trains. The trains incurred no problems on their runs”.
Amtrak stated in a rare Sunday press release the carrier “and federal rail safety officials accepted a temporary remedy of a yaw damper bracket problem presented by Bombardier and Alstom, manufacturers of the Acela Express trainsets. Installation of this remedy - a thicker version of the bracket in most cases, or the grinding out of superficial cracks in less serious cases - began Friday at Amtrak maintenance facilities in Washington, Philadelphia, New York, and Boston”.
The railroad has scheduled 17 departures between Washington and New York. It usually operates 32 departures between those city pairs. It will run 13 departures between New York and Boston instead of the regular 18.
All 30 departures “represent a 60 percent return to a full Acela Express schedule.”
The press release stated “The 15 Acela Express departures not running between and New York and Washington today, five will be covered with Metroliner equipment”.
The railroad ran express equipment on 11 scheduled regional trains over the weekend, so passengers got premium service while paying lower fares - but passengers purchasing tickets for Monday Acela Expresses will pay regular fares.
The carrier added, the express trains “will be used primarily in peak periods to accommodate the greatest number of passengers.” These include (partial schedule):
Southbound from Boston at 6:15 a.m., 8:15 a.m., 3:15 p.m., 4:15, 5:15 p.m.
Northbound from New York at 7:03 a.m., 8:03 a.m., 9:03 a.m., 10:03 a.m., 5:00 p.m. 6:00 p.m. 7:00 p.m.
Southbound from New York at 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m., 10:00 a.m., 5:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., 8:00 p.m., 9:00 p.m.
Northbound from Washington at 5:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m., 7:00 a.m., 2:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., 5:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m. and 8:30 p.m.
Late Monday afternoon, one week ago today, Amtrak dispatchers on the Northeast Corridor were ordered to issue a blanket “Form D” to all Acela Express trains, limiting their speeds to 80 mph. A Form D is an operating instruction that requires strict compliance. Years ago, they were called train orders.
The movement permits were issued August 12 at 5:08 p.m. and were addressed to conductors and engineers of “All eastward and westward high-speed trainset consist trains at New York via Passenger Operator…do not exceed 80 mph between New York and destination.”
By the end of the week, all 18 Acela Express trainsets were out of service.
By 1:19 a.m., Tuesday, the reasons were beginning to become clear. An early report stated cracked truck frames were found on at least two trainsets. That turned out not to be quite accurate, but all Acela Expresses were cancelled for the day while mechanical forces from Amtrak and Bombardier investigated. The problem was clear: numerous cracks on all four yaw dampers, two on each locomotive truck.
HHP-8 engines also shopped;
borrowed power runs trains
Similar problems were found on Amtrak’s 8,000-horsepower HHP-8 electric locomotives, also built by Bombardier and part of the 20 Acela Express trainset order. Those 15 engines were also parked in repair shops, leaving Amtrak short of enough electric engines (AEM-7s) of their own to operate all their trains.
Amtrak was forced to borrow some from New Jersey Transit (NJT) and the Maryland Rail Commuter system (MARC).
Amtrak still has 36 of the older AEM-7 electric locomotives available, although they own more, the Washington Post reported, which have the speed but not the hauling power of the HHP-8s, although some have been upgraded over the last year or two to 8,000 hp. The AEM-7s are still the backbone of Amtrak's electric fleet. A spokesman said five older and slower E-60 electric locomotives are available, making 41 electric locomotives on the active roster.
By Thursday afternoon, MARC agreed to loan Amtrak two of its four AEM-7s, and New Jersey Transit made available two of its fleet of new ALP-46 locomotives. Neither agency is expected to cut any service because of the loan.
Meanwhile, travel agents around the country were told all Metroliners were “closed for sale to protect displaced Acela Express passengers.” In short, no one could get a ticket to ride a Metroliner because all the ticket-holders for the express trains were being reseated on the Metroliners.
Later Tuesday morning, we learned Amtrak was continuing to accept reservations on Acela Expresses for travel beginning August 14 and beyond, “with the actual operating schedule pending an inspection of every single Acela Express train set. All Acela Express schedules for August 13 still have their inventory zeroed out.”
By Tuesday afternoon, the topic became such a hot item Amtrak PR people in Washington issued a press release stating, “Most Acela Express service will be cancelled today to accommodate inspections.…”
The carrier said, “During a periodic maintenance inspection yesterday of an Acela Express trainset, a crack in the yaw damper bracket of the power car, or locomotive, was observed by maintenance engineers. The yaw damper is a type of shock absorber that reduces lateral motion. There are four dampers on each power car.” There was more, however, s we discovered a little later from Amtrak president and CEO David Gunn.
The press statement explained the carrier “directed the trainset’s manufacturing consortium, Bombardier-Alstom and its subsidiary maintenance company to begin inspections of all brackets to ensure their structural integrity. These inspections resulted in the discovery of similar cracks in the brackets of two trainsets by 11:00 p.m. yesterday [Monday].”
At first, they thought they would be able to release two trains, but other abnormalities were discovered as the trains went through inspections.
Amtrak’s Gunn was taking a role in all of this. He told employees via an employee advisory, “This began when, during a 92-day check of a trainset Monday afternoon in Boston, our maintenance engineers discovered a fracture to one of the yaw damper brackets on one of the two locomotives. For those of you not in mechanical, this bracket attaches a kind of shock absorber to the frame and its purpose is to reduce truck hunting.”
Each express engine – one on each end of each train – has four yaw dampers that prevent locomotive wheel hunting at high speeds, which could accelerate wear and tear to rails and locomotive wheels. Wheel hunting is a condition that sometimes occurs on locomotives in which the wheels tend to climb the rails they are riding on. That seldom actually occurs, however.
By then, about half the fleet had been inspected, and two trainsets were going to return to service, but further examinations discovered other problems.
Gunn said, “After meeting [Tuesday] with their people, I got a reasonable assurance that they will propose a temporary fix today. If this satisfies us, and the safety people at the FRA, the trains may only be out for a few more days, but I don’t want to raise expectations here. The problem is serious and will require a permanent solution. We are not out of the woods by any measure.”
Amtrak spokesman Bill Schulz in Washington said, “We’re bringing as much equipment as we can into service to make up for the shortfall,” according The AP.
Amtrak pledged to credit passengers for the difference in ticket prices between Acela Express and the trains they take. About 40,000 people ride Amtrak in the Northeast Corridor on a typical weekday, and more than 10,000 ride the Acela Expresses.
The FRA decided Wednesday tentatively that Amtrak’s plan to get the trains moving was a prudent course of action. No Acela Expresses moved in revenue service on Wednesday.
By Thursday morning, Amtrak’s public affairs office posted a new press release on its website stating “an additional inspection to an Acela Express trainset had been conducted and found cracks not previously detected in the yaw damper bracket. It was decided not to return five trainsets to service as had been planned for today.”
The press release added, “This change reduces by 10 the number of departures between Washington and Boston announced late yesterday, but preserves more than 100 departures throughout the day as previously scheduled. All other services, such as Metroliners and regional trains, will continue to operate throughout the Northeast.”
On Thursday, Amtrak again withdrew its Acela Express trains from service and scrapped plans to have all of them back on the railroad by Friday after more-detailed tests discovered more cracks that had escaped earlier detection.
Amtrak had intended to run five Acela train sets on Thursday, but withdrew that plan and said it is uncertain when the trains can get back into service, according to the Washington Post.
Risky business on the phone to customers
San Francisco travel agent Gene Poon said a client was curious what Amtrak was telling its customers about Tuesday’s Acela Express cancellations. He said the client, who he did not name, made the phone call at about 4:00 a.m. (EDT.)
The client said, “I just called Amtrak. ‘Julie’ [Amtrak’s automated clerk] was of no help, so I spoke to a real agent. I asked for Acela Express availability between 8:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m., New York to Washington. I was informed there were no Acela Express or Metroliner high-speed trains today at all. The explanation given was due to heat index over 100 degrees. I was informed this is the likely scenario tomorrow.
“It’s an outright lie... I hope that by now, they have wised up and decided to tell the truth.”
Acela Express locomotive yaw dampers are not holding up to hard use. Cracks have been found.
“At this point, I can’t even speculate,” said Chief Operating Officer Stan Bagley.
The manufacturer, Bombardier of North America, which produces the trains in a consortium with Alstom of Paris, discovered the new cracks when it applied a more-sophisticated test than it had been using. The new cracks were located at the point where the brackets were welded to the locomotive body – the same point at which workers in Boston discovered the first failure during an inspection Monday.
Bombardier had supplied to Amtrak a new bracket that is slightly thicker than the one found to be cracking, and Amtrak had intended to install those on one train today for tests, but Bagley said that installation will not take place until engineers, the FRA and Amtrak officials have a chance to decide a new course of action.
A source said the plan is to re-equip two complete trainsets with the thicker plates, run both sets in long-distance trials, get both trains in service, then go from there.
Under previous plans, Amtrak was to have all trains refitted with a new bracket by late Sunday night, but Amtrak president David. L Gunn said, “We don’t know when we’ll get the first train fixed.”
Bagley said that officials “must feel comfortable” that the train is safe and, “if there is the slightest doubt or concern, we will take the safe course.”
Amtrak spokesman Clifford Black explained to D:F on Friday morning, “The yaw damper assembly is a fairly large, triangular steel casting, perhaps two-and-a-half feet, to which is attached a large horizontal tubular shock absorber, which is itself attached to the truck frame. The assembly weighs more than 200 pounds. This assembly is attached to the locomotive frame with a pair of stainless steel plates, one outer and one inner. The plates constitute the yaw damper bracket.”
Black said, “The plates (brackets) are drilled for bolts (approximately eight of them) for attachment to the steel casting, and are welded to the locomotive sill (its frame) as an attachment to the locomotive.”
The plates are about “three-quarters-of-an-inch thick stainless steel, and are roughly rectangular with (my guess) dimensions of about 16 inches high and 20 inches wide. Take these dimension with plenty of salt. They're only guesses based on my observation two days ago.”
He noted, “The upper portion of the outer bracket (plate) is obscured by the lower edge of the locomotive’s carbody. In order to inspect and repair the weld area, a small portion of the stainless carbody skin (maybe 12 by 6 inches. must be cut away.”
Black said, “Temporary repairs will probably involve welding small cracks and replacing entire plates (brackets) for large cracks or fractures.”
He did not know how long it would take to replace one damper. He said the first trainset could be back in service “relatively soon, (a few days) assuming all goes well and the FRA approves methodology. As to when a bunch of them might be available, that's another question I wouldn’t attempt to guess.”
He had no notion how much the repairs would cost, but the trainsets are still under warranty, he said.
The Acela’s bracket trouble is the latest in a series of problems with the popular trains. All 18 trainsets Amtrak has accepted so far are scheduled for as many as 200 upgrades, including fixes in the braking systems and repairs to sticking restroom doors.
Last month, 35 Acela Express trains were canceled before leaving the station or terminated before reaching their destination. Most cancellations were due to equipment problems.
An Acela Express trainset rests over the inspection pit in the high-speed barn in Boston last year
Amtrak reported earlier this month that all 18 of the high-speed trains needed repairs and modifications. The passenger railroad declined to accept delivery of a 19th train, citing modifications that were not made.
On a typical day, Amtrak sends 15 Acela Express trains over the road and keeps three in reserve.
Amtrak officials said mechanical problems aside, Acela Express has been a success in attracting riders. Amtrak trains now carry more passengers between Washington and New York each day than do the U.S. Airways and Delta shuttles combined.
Elsewhere, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. (CBC) News reported from Montreal “Shares of Bombardier hit a new 52-week low Tuesday after the U.S. passenger train service Amtrak said it would pull many of its Acela Express trains from service because of mechanical problems.”
Bombardier (T.BBD.B) shares fell as low as $8.56 in heavy trading before recovering somewhat to $9.00 by 3:30 p.m. down $1. By 10:15 a.m. Friday, it was trading in the $8.10-$8.14 range mid-morning on the Toronto Stock Exchange. It opened the day at 7.92, peaked at $8.23 and closed at $7.90.
Amtrak and Bombardier signed their $972-million (Canadian) contract in 1996, but Bombardier took Amtrak to court in 2001 for $200 million (U.S.), writes the Canadian Press. Oral arguments were heard last week in U.S. District Court in Washington on Bombardier’s $318-million lawsuit against Amtrak. It blames the national passenger system for design changes to the trains and poor tracks.
The Bombardier-Alstom trains reportedly have the worst on-time record of any Amtrak train in the Northeast corridor, with more than a quarter of them failing to reach their destination within 15 minutes of their scheduled arrival time, but some analysts have said Amtrak and Bombardier are both to blame.
Amtrak has captured 60 per cent of the combined air-train market between Washington and New York, compared with 38 to 40 percent some three years ago, said NCI president Jim RePass.
While there was a spike in rail travel after last September’s terrorist attacks, RePass and Amtrak attribute most of the increase to the appeal of Acela’s shorter traveling times and comfort.
The delays and legal dispute, however, could cool passion for train travel and make it more difficult for Amtrak to get public funds, on which it depends for track and rail equipment improvements.
RePass played down the setbacks, but he admitted they’re not helping the rail cause.
“The dispute is aggravating everyone,” said RePass.
“The trainsets, when they’re operating, are beautiful.
“This is a great big, gorgeous Ferrari with some teething problems. The public loves it, it’s selling out constantly, but they do have to be made reliable.”
Industry analyst Cameron Doerkson says there’s no doubt that the setbacks have hurt Bombardier’s share values, and will also hurt the bottom line.
“They’re getting lower margins on those trains they’re delivering that require rework or modifications. Those are all costs that are incurred by the company.”
Doerkson, with Dlouhy Merchant Group, added that the company will likely never reveal its cost to develop the new train, which may end up with a big loss if Amtrak refuses to buy any more.
Amtrak said the Acela trains have the worst on-time performance of its Northeast fleet, with only 74 per cent arriving on time, but spokeswoman Karen Dunn insists there is goodwill among travelers.
“I don’t think there’s been too much damage done just yet,” Dunn said. “The Acela Express continues to be wildly popular with our customers so far, despite the cancellations in the last couple of months due to equipment failure.”
Spokeswoman Carol Sharpe of Bombardier Transportation said the company remains confident in its new trains.
“It’s very normal for such technology to have to implement certain modifications,” she said.
Despite Gunn’s pledge not to buy any more Acela trains for Amtrak, analyst Doerkson said: “I can’t imagine that Bombardier would be shut out of any future high-speed rail in North America, given that there are only three major manufacturers.”
Bombardier, Alstom and Siemens of Germany are the three makers of high-speed trains.
RePass: “This is a great big, gorgeous Ferrari with some teething problems.”
By day’s end on Friday, David Gunn had weighed in again on the issue, in a report from The New York Times.
He said that the decision to build Acela largely from scratch, instead of modifying an existing train with a proven record, was responsible for many of its problems. Gunn also said the government should consider modifying its safety standards to make it easier to import European designs.
“We'll get the Acela back in service,” he said, “but for the next generation of trains, you want to build on a product with some miles on it. You want to build off an existing prototype in Europe or Asia.”
He said Amtrak’s decision to buy the Acela instead of European trains it tested was also strongly influenced by the generous financing offered by Acela’s manufacturers to the perpetually capital-starved railroad.
Passengers as well as railroaders were surprised on Saturday when two Acela trainsets returned to service after undergoing the required repairs.
An observer of the passing railroad scene, and a veteran Washington watcher noted, “I don’t know about you, but like most, I was willing to give [former Amtrak president George] Warrington the benefit of the doubt when he left. With the pileup of problems that have happened since he walked out the door (of which this is a mere straw upon the camel’s back), I’m beginning to wonder if he saw all this coming and decided he’d better get out while the getting is good, and leave the whole mess to someone else. My own defense of him was that he was ‘just following the law,’ but now I can see Gunn’s point that he should have blown the whistle when he could see the law was impossible to follow.
“How candid was he with the board in outlining the problems? I can’t help wondering.”
Super Steel Schenectady delivered the first of seven rebuilt Turbotrains to Amtrak Thursday. Amtrak will test the train, designed to travel at 125 mph, over the next few weeks before it accepts it for regular service, according to a spokeswoman for the New York DOT.
The Turbotrain, a five-car unit with engines at both ends, is being stored at Amtrak’s Rensselaer maintenance facility.
State transportation officials had hoped to put the rebuilt trains into service more than two years ago, but hazardous asbestos and lead paint had to be removed from the trains during the rebuilding, delaying deliveries and adding to the price tag, then Amtrak requested extensive changes, further delaying delivery. Automatic doors on restrooms were replaced with manual doors, and the engineer’s console was extensively redesigned, reports the Schenectady Gazette.
While state officials had hoped to rebuild the fleet for $65 million, the additional work added to the cost. The first two trains will cost a total of $34.5 million, with the remaining five to cost an additional $61 million, for a total of $95.5 million, said NYDOT spokeswoman Melissa Carlson.
Work on the trains is being done at Super Steel’s plant at the Scotia-Glenville Industrial Park.
The trains were built in the mid-1970s by California-based Rohr Industries from a French design, and went into service in the Empire Corridor between New York City and Buffalo. They were also used for a while on the Adirondack route to Montreal.
By the mid-1990s, breakdowns made them less reliable, and Amtrak discontinued using all but one trainset, which was updated with new turbine engines and given a fresh coat of paint. That train will be the last of the seven to be rebuilt.
Super Steel President Scott Mintier said a second trainset will be completed within two to three months, with remaining trainsets rolling out of the Glenville shops at three-month intervals. He expects all seven trains to be completed by the end of 2003.
The trains have new electrical systems, new interiors with updated food service cars, more powerful turbines, and power outlets for laptop computers and other electronic devices at each seat.
Mintier expects Amtrak’s tests, which will be conducted between Rensselaer and New York City with a potential run west to Buffalo, to take about 30 days. If tests are successful, the trains would then enter regular scheduled service.
Most of Super Steel’s 140 employees are working on the Turbotrains, Mintier said.
“This [delivery] is sooner than we thought, which is good news,” said Bruce Becker, president of the Empire State Passengers Association.
New York State plans track upgrades along the Empire Corridor to permit higher speeds for the Turbotrain. The current top speed limit is 110 mph, and along much of the route, trains are limited to 90 mph. TEXT
Been ON it ... it's *NICE* ... VERY nice ...
Hello,
I distinctly remember the turbo trains being used on the New Haven to New York route (they may have continued further east to Boston, but I am less certain of this.) This would have been in the early 1970's (when I was in school in Connecticut.) Are these the same set of trains?
Those were the Sikorsky experimental turbotrains funded by the USDoT. They also saw service in Canada before ending up in a museum. They were very similar to the SOAC Subway cars in internal/external design and concept.
These did run up to BOS, but only on test runs. The timings were faster than the present-day best time achieved by the Acela. These things were also a maintenance nightmare. They were good in Canada because they didn't have to make too many stops, great saving on the "takeoff cycles" on the aero turbine engines used to provide power.
The Cascades Talgo train are loosely based on the same concept.
AEM7
I think the top speed was 183.65
Mike, -- wrong United Aircraft (now United Technologies Corporation)division. The TurboTrains were built under Pratt & Whitney auspices. as for who actually built the trains-- St.Louis car, maybe?
John J. Blair
Jack of All Trades
Carrier
A United Technologies Company
You know that Seckorski is also a division of United Technologies. I also have a sneaking suspicion that United Aircraft might be Sekorski under a different wrapper as I have never heard of anything else built by them.
Blackhawk helocopters
Whiteeagle heaventhievers
The United Aircraft Corporation changed it's name to United Technologies Corporation in 1972. The original UAC companies were: Hamilton Standard (airplane propellers), Pratt & Whitney (aircraft engines), Sikorsky (helocopters), and Norden Systems (aircraft electronics, they made the Norden Bombsight of WWII fame.) After the name change, the company, now known affectionately as UTC, acquired several other companies, most notably Carrier (air conditioning equipment), and Otis (elevators) The part of UTC where I work is the Carlyle Compressor Doivision of Carrier. Our plant, TR-3 makes nearly all of the A/C compressors used by Amtrak and the various commuter rail agencies in North America.
Anyway, UTC or UTA dosen't really make anything. Its just a big holding company. Do you know which division made the Turbo Trains?
Pratt & Whitney
tests, which will be conducted between Rensselaer and New York City with a potential run west to Buffalo, to take about 30 days.
HEY! I do believe I could *WALK* from Rensselaer to Buffalo in less than 30 days!
Sheesh!
Not on the CSX tracks. :)
Yeah, your feet might derail.
Heh. And without benefit of chemicals, either. :)
Chemical Spills Xpedited is just happy that New York State has finally agreed to lower their taxes. I think they will find out which Turboliner carries the most politicians west of Albany and those will run on time. All of the others may not fare so well.
Now if AMTRAK could begin a new bi-hourly super-express from New York to Buffalo, stopping at Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, and possibly Cleveland, maybe these trains could give the corridor a shot in the arm. You can always get Bruno and friends to cough up the initial money, since a bus to the airport already exists from Albany. If CSX were to receive a nice check from NYS, those trains would definitely fit in addition to the regular services. Then AMTRAK can lower the fares a little to get closer to breaking even than now.
Nah, it's too logical to happen...never mind.
Heh. Amtrak stopping anywhere in ALBANY might be a nice first step, same for the airport since the tracks go RIGHT by it. But I wouldn't worry about CSX changing their stripes - they felt they deserved the tax elimination on general principle and since no strings were attached, I'm sure they don't feel obligated to do SQUAT. We'll see.
And SHAME on you - as we all know, by political decree, rocks WILL float. :)
Float whose boat is the question.
It's not looking better either, with the Democrats promising to keep our fare $1.50 even though the MTA needs the dough. Where do the cuts begin?
If I were AMTRAK, I would not wait on any more NY dollars. Of course, if NY doesn't pay up, we could just have four Ethan Allen Locals to Burlington, Vermont. They like to write AMTRAK checks up there and they would love free Turbos ;)
Yeah, once the elections are out of the way, we'll finally be hearing the truth about the budget crises ... from what I've heard from friends over there in Division of the Budget, it's going to be MIGHTY ugly. But don't listen to the gladhanders, in addition to the fares having no CHOICE but to go up, there's going to be a large reduction in the workforce across the board, and across all agencies. Of course that news won't come out until "budget school" in January.
While I'm glad to hear that the state has abandoned the shaking down of Amtrak, realizing that there really wasn't any money to pay for pork museums, it's going to be QUITE interesting to see how CDTA is supposed to "break even" with the numbers in the TU article I posted elsewhere here. But if the politicos are saying we can cruise on vapors THIS year, grab onto your wallet ...
Now if AMTRAK could begin a new bi-hourly super-express from New York to Buffalo, stopping at Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, and possibly Cleveland, maybe these trains could give the corridor a shot in the arm...
Where are you going to put all that freight that comes out of Selkirk? If NYSDOT is willing to cough up the $ to quadriple the track, I am sure CSX is very willing to run trains every two hours.
AEM7
A SECOND track between Rensselaer and Schenectady on the bypass is all that's really needed - the route is single-tracked now. As to the freights, they tend to run through here in the middle of the night with peak traffic between 3am and 7am. Pax trains will find clears all the way up and down the line during daylight hours. It's a bit crazier out in SYR where perhaps an additional track might be useful. But around here, shouldn't be a scheduling problem at all. CSX's biggest problem is not counting cars and overflowing their sidings and yards.
Since CSX is out of Jacksonville, Florida I can understand why they lack math skills. Florida does seem to have a general problem with counting things properly. :)
As to the freights, they tend to run through here in the middle of the night with peak traffic between 3am and 7am. Pax trains will find clears all the way up and down the line during daylight hours.
You're daydreamin. I know you stay up by Selkirk, but didn't you ever watch trains during the day?
AEM7
They go right by my property. Yeah, there's a train every 40 minutes to two hours in the daytime (one track handles it just fine) but between 3 and 7 am, they're spaced about as far apart as #6 trains on Lexington Avenue at rush hour. Noticeable difference. But there's not as much daytime traffic as you might think. CSX got their tax cut, time for them to BUILD if they really need to. Since their excuse has been remedied, let's see what they actually DO about "access for high speed" ... should be every bit as amusing as the accounting for the Amtrak station I pointed to in the new thread I started an hour or so ago.
Rocks float - get your popcorn, peanuts. :)
Yeah, there's a train every 40 minutes to two hours in the daytime (one track handles it just fine)
So, why don't we single track the Northeast Corridor between Providence and New Haven? That section only sees a train every 40 mins to two hours...
I agree with basically everything you say, and maybe you're right they will manage with two tracks if passenger trains travel at the same speed as freight trains between ALB and CLE. But if the passenger train should wish to exceed the 55mph average speed of merchandizers, then it would be necessary to expand track capacity to provide for "overtakes" which are very capacity consuming, and for pull-overs for the 30mph DEEX trains.
CSX is only too happy to build something if NYSDOT would pay for all the track materials, labor, and maintenance, in return for running their trains at avoidable costs (like Amtrak is currently doing).
The underlying issue is that the current framework for capacity allocation and passenger train cost accounting is flawed.
AEM7
I'm sure if CSX owned the NEC, it *would* be one track. There's been talk of tearing out the second track on the Chicago line, but for now the cost of ripping it up would be a bit excessive. :)
And as to the inconvenience of dealing with Amtrak on the Chicago line, Conrail managed to handle it with little trouble. Why IS it that when CSX took over, suddenly it became a major problem? Speaks volumes about the "management" to me. No offense intended, but chimpanzees could run a better railroad. :)
It would be one track with passing sidings and BRT to Boston in the rest of the right-of-way. Sort of like a certain AMTRAK line near Hartford.
Chimpanzee's Shipping Xpress...now I see how they got the refrigerated shipping business with UP, which has a strange banana color to it...
Maybe they'll privatize the subway some day and the Lex will be single-tracked with sidings capable of holding 6 cars. That's kinda the logic CSX applies. :)
look at a NYC passenger TT of the early 60's. All those trains on two tracks without computers, with less reliable radios, etc.
Take a look at tonnage figures over the NYC mainline, 1960-1990 (There's even a diagram in a recent copy of TRAINS, Map of the Month).
Tonnage doesn't tell the whole story. If you're not convinced, I'll tell you the whole story later.
AEM7
Chemical Spills Xpedited is just happy that New York State has finally agreed to lower their taxes. I think they will find out which Turboliner carries the most politicians west of Albany and those will run on time. All of the others may not fare so well.
Now if AMTRAK could begin a new bi-hourly super-express from New York to Buffalo, stopping at Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, and possibly Cleveland, maybe these trains could give the corridor a shot in the arm. You can always get Bruno and friends to cough up the initial money, since a bus to the airport already exists from Albany. If CSX were to receive a nice check from NYS, those trains would definitely fit in addition to the regular services. Then AMTRAK can lower the fares a little to get closer to breaking even than now.
Nah, it's too logical to happen...never mind.
The Turbotrain has been back for a while, I saw it (the new one) when I was last in Albany, which was the weekend of the 11th. It was parked in the depot beyond Rensslaer Station.
Automatic doors on restrooms were replaced with manual doors, and the engineer’s console was extensively redesigned, reports the Schenectady Gazette
There's somebody with some sense. Hopefully, we won't get any restroom doors opening while in use, and people won't be locked in.
AEM7
There is a photo of it in this month's RailPace. The text with it seems to indicate that only this one set was/will be able to escape the lockup ... in a related item Albany has agreed to provide the funds to open the new station in Albany.
Another Highspeed train in the Acela paint
Florida Tri-Rail got $26.7 million in federal dollars last week to help pay for a $456 million double-tracking project.
The plan is to run commuter trains every 20 minutes at rush hour once a second track is built by 2005. The first payment of $25.6 million was made last year and another payment of $48 million is expected next year. In all, Tri-Rail has secured $110 million from the transit administration’s New Starts program, which funds new transit projects across the country, reports the Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel.
Tri-Rail is forging ahead to fortify what will likely be the spine of the regional transit system, double-tracking its 72-mile corridor from West Palm Beach to Miami on CSX’s right-of-way. The agency also has its eye on expanding northward to Martin County and running trains along tracks that run parallel to the Dolphin Expressway in Miami-Dade.
About 44 miles are left to double-track, including almost all of the corridor in Palm Beach County and most of Broward County south of Interstate 95.
The system’s current hit-or-miss performance – trains run more or less hourly now – stems largely from Tri-Rail sharing a single track for more than 30 miles with CSX’s freight trains and Amtrak trains from Miami northward to Jacksonville and beyond.
As part of the double-tracking project, workers at the end of the month will shut the Camino Real crossing in Boca Raton to install four-quadrant gates and raised medians, the first of about 20 crossings between Boca Raton and West Palm Beach that will be closed for improvements.
Each crossing will be closed seven days for the gate work, and one crossing at a time will be affected. Palmetto Park Road in Boca Raton is next on the list. The schedule for the rest of the crossings is still up in the air.
The four-quadrant gates and taller medians are designed to keep drivers from skirting the arms and pulling into the path of an approaching train.
Tri-Rail spokeswoman Bonnie Arnold said once the gates are installed, the rail corridor will become “sealed,” meaning residents can petition the Federal Railroad Administration to ban trains from blowing their whistles at crossings.
Also in the coming weeks, Arnold said construction is set to begin at the Lake Worth station with a new platform and overpass to accommodate trains running on two tracks.
Eight other stations, including Mangonia Park, West Palm Beach, Boynton Beach, Delray Beach, Fort Lauderdale, Sheridan Street, Hollywood and Northwest 79th Street also will be improved. One new station will be built in Boca Raton at Congress Avenue to replace one at Yamato Road, which will be demolished.
TRI-rail? Is it O gauge or SUPER-O? :)
if you dont know what Tri-rail is all about then go to www.tri-rail.com for more info
It was JUST a joke ... sorry.
Gargraves
Heh. Nice, but expensive toys. :)
i've had my fair share of jokes played on me my whole life that i dont really like them too much anymore even when they dont involve something happening but just something said.
Massachusetts’ acting Gov. Jane M. Swift signed legislation with little fanfare on August 10 that swept away a potentially fatal obstacle to the $669 million proposal to link Boston with New Bedford and Fall River by rail.
The Bay State governor approved a change in a transportation bond bill that allows the state, rather than the cash-strapped Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, to pay the debt service on bonding for the rail project, according to the New Bedford, Mass., Standard Times.
The MBTA conceded it did not have the bonding capacity to afford the 47-mile extension of the Stoughton line, and it was doubtful the agency would have the money in the future.
The state began putting the MBTA on a strict budget last year, ending decades of year-end subsidies from the legislature.
The MBTA left the New Bedford-Fall River rail extension out of its 10-year capital plan earlier this year because it couldn’t afford it.
“The limited bonding capacity of the T, following the financial reform package that we did for them, would have put a project this size further behind,” said State Rep. William M. Straus (D).
State Sens. Mark C.W. Montigny and Joan M. Menard, D-Somerset, both Democrats, put language in the bond bill that allowed the state, rather than the MBTA, to pay the debt service. Without the change, rail service, projected to begin in 2008, could have been delayed indefinitely.
“We do welcome it,” said Jon Carlisle, a spokesman for the state DOT.
“We’ve let people know for some time that in order to move on Fall River and New Bedford, we have to look for funding sources outside of the MBTA capital plan.”
Sometime in the future, the legislature and the governor would have to approve the actual bonding for the rail extension. A dollar amount was not included in the current bond bill. The state has an annual bond cap of $1.2 billion, so it would have to compete with other projects.
Planning for the rail extension is already well under way. Work is being done on bridges in Fall River and New Bedford.
”This isn’t just lip service,” Carlisle said.
“There’s a capital outlay. That demonstrates the MBTA’s support of the project. This is something we think is a good idea and will have a significant economic impact. We think that a good case can be made to the governor and legislature to move this forward.”
The transportation bond section submitted by Sens. Montigny and Menard classifies the SouthCoast rail extension as a special project that benefits the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. It also allows the MBTA to combine design and construction into one bid, rather than request separate bids from designers and builders.
Montigny said the change in the bid language would save the MBTA about $50 million.
An MBTA study estimated that the Fall River-New Bedford line would have 8,560 riders a day. About 70 percent of them would be new riders on the MBTA.
Does any one know what happended on the L line this AM
Thank You
A train dropped a shoe in the river tube. It neeeded a rescue train and then the track was damaged and needed repair. The tower did make annoucenemtns at first Ave as did I. We also had 3 sickj customers ont he tescue traind ue to heat-- two at first ave and one at third ave. What really amazed me was we announced tyhe station was closed and still theyt ried to enter- breaking 5 layers of tape! They stopped comign after I suggest the S/A stop sales and I started informing them they are trespassing and subject to arrest by NYPD if they did not leave. They finally left. I was at first for over an hour.
Was the "shoeless" train an R-40M/R-42 or an R-143?
I am not sure, but I think it was R143 . I dont know the car number, but I heard a reference to "check the screen".
So what happened to the F. I stood on the platform at Prospect Park Station for half an hour, with Gs going by southbound -- presumably to make up for something.
I dont know. Train Dude, Alex- any info?
I picked a bad day to railfan:
1. 25 minute wait for a soutbound 2 at Atlantic at 7 AM (I was too stubborn to ride the myriad of 5 trains which came through on the express track.
2. The conductor of a southbound W at 36th St. did NOT announce the GO sending all those trains via the Sea Beach express. You'd have thought this pattern was normal for the W, and several people were visably upset with her as we whizzed through the Sea Beach stations.
3. Long wait for a circle Q headed to Manhattan at Coney Island around 11 AM.
To All Subtalkers:
I had noticed a thread under the subject "Calling Mr. Padrone", which was perhaps used an alert that more R-10 car photo images were uploaded and inserted on this website. By the way, my last name is not spelled with an "e" at the end.
Yes, I have seen the additional and great pictures of the car themselves, including them on the IND "A" line in regular service (including one rare view at 125th Street northbound), a fantastic shot of green #2974 on the Fulton Street Line at Van Siclen in Brooklyn, and two snapshots on the Sunday, October 29, 1989 farewell fantrip. "Steve B-8AV EXP" would be pleased to know that the slide of #3216, although taken at Crescent Street on the BMT Jamaica Line, does sport "A" and "207 Street Manhattan" front roll signs.
If I haven't been posting on this board in quite sometime, it is because I have been pretty occupied with many non-transit issues in my personal life and at work. Also, my free time on the Internet has been occupied by the fact that I have been answering too many but welcomed e-mails in relation to an essay web article that I had written concerning the New York City-era "Pyramid" TV game show (my all-time favorite program of that genre) that is currently seen on a fan tribute web site.
Besides, I have not been paying attention as such to this transit and railfan hobby as I should, and I have been quite indifferent and oblivious to the ongoings and changes on the New York City Transit System. With only two R-10's in existence today (#3184 and #3189), and really each of those surviving cars just practically sitting there, I am not that really excited as to what happens anywhere else on the NYCTS.
Now, I wonder if Joe Testagrose or any other railfan photographer or slide collector can dig out a picture of an R-10 "A" train in regular service seen at 190th Street-Overlook Terrace (my former home station from September 1966 to June 1998), and put on this website, then I will really start to be excited again about the hobby. It is only a wish I could ask for.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10", as the nickname given to me by most railfans]
Wow,
Only 2 R-10s left? I spent a lot of time on those babies when I had a CC run back in the summer of 1981. I really enjoyed them. Wish I could grab my bag 'o wrenches and have another crack at them right now. Too bad they had to go.
You would have sincerely LOVED the Arnines then. Similar cab, AMUE braking. No self-lapping. You were *IN* control ... or else. :)
Kevin,
Had the chance to operate those only a few times out on the road, but not in paggenger service. My buddy was on a work train run and let me come along. I enjoyed it, even though the ME-23 brake was different, and took a bit of time to get used to. It really felt like you were earning your money...especially stopping and starting and creeping along following those track guys around on those work runs. He had also warned me about 'staying on top of her or else she would be on top of you', and I'd have an experience like your final one. I can see why some folks liked them...I did too, all of the old equipment...not the rolling beer cans that they're putting out there today. Ack!
Uncle Nostalgia
Heh. That was sage advice. :)
Yeah, you had to know the "feel" ... the gauges were slow and told you what HAD been going on. If you ran them standing up until you got used to them, the G forces let you know what was going on. The BIG trick was knowing when to release or you'd go right through the cab glass. :)
They told me the same thing, about the 'feel.' The gauges were for reference, "feel the train", "listen". It was completely different (to me) that what I was taught/used to. Plus, I was new on the job as it was, so I didn't have a lot of experience on the ME-42, which was easier (relatively speaking) to operate. I'd love to get another crack at one, or even just ride...let's get that fan trip rolling!
Uncle Retro
Yep ... now you know why I consider a speedo in the cab an emasculation. What on EARTH did ya need them for (especially when they're not very accurate) when the pitch of the motors was the TRUTH? But yeah, I loved the old girls. It was the 32's that made me crazy and I didn't want to HEAR about sitting in a 42/44/46. There was nothing to really go by when operating and slide pots are for DJ's. :)
Yes, the old gym locker handle on the 44/46. I tought they were different, had no trouble with them, but preferred two handles myself. Ran some 32s when I had a D train run. Not bad, but different from the nines and tens...nice and shiny :)
Heh. The few times I did 32's, I *swore* they was redbirds. Nice and all, but when you'd rip the controller around, you'd hit your head on the breaker panel and be going too fast ... like (snap!) THAT. When you got used to the nice slow takeoff of R9's they were a bit unsettling. The other thing was trying to get used to pulling a pinch and leaving it there without having to lap it. Also unsettling. When you get used to a piece of equipment that doesn't run like the other ones, it's hard to get used to running something else.
Now the R143's ... they're cute and all and actually run rather nicely with the computer outguessing you, but I'd go crazy dealing with a controller on the cab window. The 44's and 46's were alien enough thank you much. :)
So Big Ed wasn't kidding when he said the R-32s "jumped like jackrabbits". I never felt as though I was being thrown back when riding them. They did make that CPW dash look easy, even effortless.
Do think a good analogy of AMUE vs SMEE would be a stickshift vs automatic? I can go back and forth between the two even without instinctly trying to push in a clutch pedal that isn't there when driving an automatic.
They had a MUCH higher acceleration curve and if you wrapped it like you'd do an R9, the motors would be wailing with the car at a dead stop. In other words, "bang" ... they rolled, and took off like a redbird.
I *guess* you could sorta put it as "manual vs. automatic" as far as handling the brakes went. The AMUE's were NOT "self-lapping" so you'd have to pull, hold, release, etc ... it was just a different operating mode that was not like that in the SMEE's. You had to be mindful of that or, like the story of the poor schlump in 1575 as lead, if you thought it was an SMEE and you didn't lap, your train would do that pink bunny thing. :)
(STILL going ...)
Yeah, that's when you'd hear:
OHHH, &@#&%*@#!!!!!!
Granted I never saw a subway train peel out, but if any car class were capable of doing so, it would have to be the R-32s.
Yeah, compared with the IND classics, those puppies took off. And as to your large-fonted message, "first you say it, then you do it." :)
I forgot to post that one too.
Peelout
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh thems were the good old daze !!
Bill "Newkirk"
That's a "big bang". New York's version of the big bang theory, anyway.
That's a "big bang". New York's version of the big bang theory, anyway.
Call it a train of R-10s starting off with a bang.:)
Too bad you didn't get to run them on the A. Nothing like blasting past those 7 local stops along CPW on a train of The Thundering Herd.
I did, once, although I was running light. I started my southbound CC run out of Bedford and developed door trouble. They made me dump at 145, pick up a hammer guy at 125, and continue down the express track. Got the door problem fixed by 59, went back into service at 42. Anyway, got a taste of that run in an R-10, and it was loud, but good. Did it plenty of times when I was working the A, but only in R-40 and 44s.
Uncle Thunderbird
Heh. The old ball pein squad. The Arnine doors were similar and valves would get cranky or arms would stick. And carrying your own hammer was working out of title. :)
Once upon a time, the railroad couldn't run at ALL without the mighty RCI's. Anybody could run a train, but only an RCI could get them to move. Never had the "pleasure" of R10's aside from half a day out in Brooklyn to "try it out" before posting. Also got some 42 and 44 time that same morning that similarly never got used.
Kev, even in the 1980's they were pretty good considering the 'deferred maintenance' and so forth. Like Arnines, they soldiered on despite the neglect. I doubt the new Pepsi cans could do the same. I agree with you, those RCI's were amazing back in the day. I'd say that I was only totally taken out of service 25% of all the instances when I developed trouble en route. The other 75% of the time the Hammer Squad fixed the problem and we went back in service. It's completely different these days.
The one thing that always amused me about the R10's (I rode them a lot even though I didn't work them) was how flat the wheels could get before it was off to the grinders. "Clop clop clop clop" was a way of life. But even more amusing was the way the cylinders would hang causing some nasty slack action. I'm amazed the trucks didn't rip right off some of them. Heh.
And yeah, life on Arnines taught me the ULTIMATE of respect for RCI's no matter HOW surly they got. :)
The lead motor on the very last train of R-10s I ever rode on had a bad case of flat spots. Talk about LOUD!! The cars themselves looked good and all the doors worked. Too bad they didn't run even one set on the A.
Wish I could have been there.
Another fun thing to do was open up both sides of the train out on the Rockaway flats while relaying light for the shuttle. Blew out all the garbage on the train in one big WHOOSH, like a wind tunnel. Course we had to make sure no one was left on the train!!!
Did the train's conductor open both sides, or did someone on the platform do the honors on one side?
Here's the pic in question. Puzzled me, green R10's on the J? The I remembered the R10 farewell fantrip in 10/89 ran on the J....right past my house!
I really miss them - and they had such an attractive paint scheme at the end. Although the R27-30's looked great in their "redbird" scheme too. It's sad, just as the R10's and R27's looked the best of their lives (or at least the best in years), they were scrapped.
My alltime favorite R-10 scheme is the teal-and-white racing stripe job they sported in the late 60s. This is how I remember them:
You'd see a blaze of teal and white when an A train would rip past 81st St. in full flight.
There is nothing like an R-10.
Wow, that is a nice scheme. I really do miss them. I had some good times on those trains.
Putting the Thundering Herd on the A was the best move ever made by the Board of Transportation.
You can thank Duke Ellington for the inspiration. BoT was treading DEEP water at the time the R10's came on board and there wasn't an economy. Making the "new tech" a "showcase" was actually easy thanks to the Duke. :)
Yes, the picture seen attached to your message is that of the Sunday, October 29, 1989 farewell R-10 fantrip, and green car #3216 is seen here at Crescent Street on the BMT "J" line. The excursion covered that entire route all the way to Jamaica Center via Archer Avenue as well, with the eight-car train even going into the deep pocket storage track towards the 160th Street-Union Hall Street stub end.
Back on Sunday, June 8, 1986, a four-car set of green R-10's were used on a previous E.R.A. fantrip that did operate on the Nassau Street, Broadway Brooklyn and Myrtle Avenue lines. A photo stop was made at Essex Street, and the front roll signs on car #3136 had it displayed as "15-Jamaica" (as provided by a railfan) and "Jamaica-179th St."
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
And a well-deserved nickname at that. The R-10s are an immortal fleet.
Say William, did you happen to catch Game 5 of the '69 World Series on ESPN Classic two months ago? I know you remember that as well as I do. What a way to celebrate a birthday, huh? I taped it for posterity - twice! Both VCRs were capturing it.
This is a bit off-topic, but I do remember seeing originally the 1969 World Series with the Mets winning in a friend's home who lived in the same apartment building where I had resided also. While I do have ESPN Classic on my Time Warner Cable digital box, it is not one of the regular channels I watch though (usually either Cartoon Network with their Warner Bros. cartoons or Game Show Network with the 1970's "$10,000/$20,000 Pyramid" shows).
I guess as long I am still alive on this planet, I will still be called "Mr. R-10" by all the railfans who know me too well. However, it's a nickname closely associated with my all-time favorite NYCTS fleet that I am proud to be with always.
-William A. Padron
["Mr. R-10"]
I got home from school just in time to catch the end of Game 5, then was late for a drum lesson because I stayed around to watch the postgame interviews and see the playing field at Shea torn to shreds.
You will always be Mr. R-10 as far as I'm concerned.
Without reading any of the responses to the original post, I am sorry I mispelled your name. Since I could not claim myself as Mr. R10 even though they were one of my favorite cars asthetically, and operationally, I thought it was OK to page the original Mr R10 here. Lots of good pictures, thanks to Mr Testagrose. Here is to one of the greatest cars that changed the dynamics of RTO for the last half century.
#1
#2
#3
#4
#5
I though about taking that handle myself at one time, but didn't. Since the R-10s will forever be associated with the Wash. Hts-8th Av. Exp., my present handle says it all.
We've argued about, for example, whether Chrysrie was a success or failure.
Suppose you could go back to 1946, right after World War II, and prioritize the following then-unbuilt projects, some of which were eventually built, and some not, and decide which ones should be built in which order, as money became available, and fully knowledgeable that some might never be built. Where would you put the money first, second, etc.
All these projects have been on the table since WWII. They are listed in alphabetical order, to avoid prejudicing the results.
Archer Avenue subway--E Connection
Archer Avenue subway--J/Z Connection
Chrystie Street (includes DeKalb reconstruction)
Culver Connection to IND
Fulton Street "A" Line Connection to BMT Liberty Avenue Line
Nostrand Avenue IRT to Sheepehead Bay
Rockaway Line
Utica Avenue IRT to Mill Basin
2nd Avenue Subway from midtown north
2nd Avenue Subway from midtown south
6th Avenue Express Tracks
60th Street Tunnel Connection (BMT to IND QB)
63rd Street Tunnel to QB Line
Yes,I know these vary widely in expense, but my question is: "Where would you put your money first?" If you wouldn't build some of these at all, you could say so.
Re: Chrystie Street
The connection between IND and BMT has been important in the development of a more unifies (division ll) subway system. I think that it was good that the tunnel connection was completed.
I'd definitely rank the Second Avenue subway first. It would be hard to prioritize the two parts (from Midtown north and from Midtown south), however.
OK: Here's my order and reasoning. The list is from the most important to the least.
1) Fulton St A line connection to Liberty: establishes extension of line and parts of Queens get a direct train to Manhattan.
2) Rockaway Line: gives Rockaway service to Manhattan
3) 2nd Ave subway from midtown north: more important than south because Bronx could use an extra line more than Brooklyn, as, except for the Concourse line, the B-division does not go into the Bronx at all, and the 2nd Ave subway would be B-division.
4) Archer Connection-E line: people from Jamaica get an express into the most busiest parts of Manhattan, LIRR supplement
5) 6th Ave Express tracks: the dash, though not as important as the top 4 because it only bypasses two stops, but is up there on the list because it increases line capacity.
6) 63rd St-QB: I actually put this tube OVER 60th St because 60th already has a link to Queens via QueensBORO plaza. Also, 63rd links to the QB local/express tracks while 60th only links directly into the local. With 63rd in service and not 60th, I say 53rd gets 1 local and 1 express, 63rd gets 1 local and 1 express and Crosstown gets a few locals. Some locals would go to 179 to alleviate congestion at Continental.
7) 2nd Ave subway midtown south: NOW we can build on the 2nd Ave subway, all the way down!
8) Chrystie St: not as important as the top 7 because it only increases variety of service from South Brooklyn rather than an increase in capacity. We could put this 8th so that the Nassau St line west of Essex doesn't have to lose a line to 6th Ave anymore.
9) 60th St-QB connection: establishes another link from Queens Blvd to Manhattan. Would be higher up on the list if express trains can easily use this link but it only feeds from the QB local tracks.
10) Utica IRT to Mill Basin: they don't need the service anytime soon as they already have B100 service to the Kings Hwy Q line station. It is in the top 10 however, because it makes a crosstown line in an area where a crosstown line doesn't exist. Just a check though, I think this was supposed to be IND and was supposed to go to Kings Plz.
11) Archer: J/Z line: not that important as I think it was fine the way it was, only difference now is that it connects to the LIRR so people can take it coming from Long Island, though I don't know why anybody from Jamaica would take the J/Z to Manhattan over the E, which is why it should've stayed the way it was.
12) Nostrand line to Sheepshed Bay: not necessary, would serve better purpose going to Kings Plz instead. Sheepshed Bay has the Brighton Q line nearby which is crowded but is not overflowing.
13) Culver connection to IND: least important: Culver people would just go into Manhattan via 4th Ave. I believe these Culver trains ran express all the way. Anybody north of Church Ave is not affected by this connection at all.
All comments and criticisms welcome.
6th Ave express tracks are pointless without Chrystie Street. IMHO Chrystie St connection should have higher priority than the "dash"
Arti
(2nd Avenue Subway from midtown north)
The subsequent residential boom on the Upper East Side puts this first. I'd build the connection to the BMT express, as planned.
(2nd Avenue Subway from midtown south)
The office boom near Grand Central makes this a must. I'd hook it into the Nassau Street line in the south, Option 2 in the current planning.
(Chrystie Street (includes DeKalb reconstruction))
(Culver Connection to IND)
I'd do a variation. Rebuild DeKalb, and build a connection from there to the the Rutgers Tunnel, so two BMT southern services would go via 6th Avenue. Then I'd drop the outside bridge tracks, and put three tracks (one for G.O.s, two for the Broadway Express) down the center of the Manny B.
(Astoria Line to LaGuardia and on to Flushing)
Not on the list, but given the growth of Queens and the growth of air transportation, this is important. Also provides more service for Queens.
(63rd Street Tunnel to QB Line)
You need to do something with the QB local, to get the capacity to Manhattan. Since the 6th Ave Express is not built, you have six tracks going through to the south now, and they are full. The BMT is also full, with the local extension to Flushing and the express extension to the Upper East Side. So you build a tunnel, and hook into the Second Avenue. You four track to 42nd, where some QB trains terminate and some keep going.
(Archer Avenue subway--E Connection Fulton Street "A" Line Connection to BMT Liberty Avenue Line)
I'd just extend the A underground to Jamaica.
(Rockaway Line)
Least used in the system, but could have been done differently. Knowing an LIRR takeover was coming, I'd keep it an LIRR line to Rockaway Park via Whitepot, with more commuter stations along the way and a spur to JFK. Buses could have served at the transit line, meeting up with the extended A at Cross Bay Blvd.
(Archer Avenue subway--J/Z Connection)
Hasn't worked yet. You'd have the A to Jamaica, as discussed above. To the west, you have the G and the L. Meanwhile, the J/Z relies on the Willie B. I'd leave it along.
(Nostrand Avenue IRT to Sheepehead Bay
Utica Avenue IRT to Mill Basin)
Hard to justify with most of Queens requiring a bus to the subway, and most future development in Queens, Manhattan, and Staten Island.
(6th Avenue Express Tracks)
If this wasn't done, the PATH could have been extended north.
This is my order (of which I probably would only do 1-8):
1 2nd Avenue Subway from midtown south
2 Nostrand Avenue IRT to Sheepehead Bay
3 60th Street Tunnel Connection (BMT to IND QB)
4 Rockaway Line
5 2nd Avenue Subway from midtown north
6 Utica Avenue IRT to Mill Basin
7 63rd Street Tunnel to QB Line
8 Archer Avenue subway--E Connection
9 Culver Connection to IND
10 Fulton Street "A" Line Connection to BMT Liberty Avenue Line
11 Chrystie Street (includes DeKalb reconstruction)
12 Archer Avenue subway--J/Z Connection
13 6th Avenue Express Tracks
Chrystie/DeKalb w/out Essex. Ease bottlenck.
6 Ave express. Avoid bottleneck, by above.
Fulton St connection. Abandon the east end? Hook it up.
60 St. connection. Getting heavy.
Rockaway line. Buy it. Save it. Hook up to Queens Blvd only.
Nostrand line. Keeping the promise.
2 Ave. South. Start it up, before the neighbor comes tumblin' down.
2 Ave. North. Finish what you started.
Culver connection. Ease 4 Ave.
Utica to Mill Basin. Don't recall this one. Any info?
Wouldn't do Archer.
63 St would become more attractive to me much later. Especially if 2 Ave. was REAL.
1- Uptown F problem in Brooklyn had soem C on 6av.
2- R143 problem. Car 8145 operating motor. In river tube a dropped shoe suspended L between Beford at first and then Broadway Jct in both directions. A rescue train was sent. We then had 3 sick customers due to hear- two at 1st and one at 3rd.Al;so causes track problem.
3- When I got off I walked to Union Square to find delays on Q diamond. Walked to 6th to find L had resumed.
Just one of those days I suppose. These things do happen.
Simon
Swindon UK
This was spawned by the recent thread about stations named after neighborhoods instead of streets.
It was brought up in that thread that while the Woodlawn station on the 4 was named after a neighborhood, for many years the 4 trains carried destination signs reading "Woodlawn Road", and there really isn't an actual street with that name in the area. Were there ever any other destination signs which referred to non-existent streets?
>> .. for many years the 4 trains carried destination signs reading "Woodlawn Road", and there really isn't an actual street with that name in the area. <<
Woodlawn Road was the original name of Bainbridge Avenue.
>>Woodlawn Road was the original name of Bainbridge Avenue.<<
Really? When was the name changed to Bainbridge Avenue? Can you please point me to some documentation of that? I lived in The Bronx as a kid, and it was Bainbridge as far back as I remember....which means that name change would have to have taken place at least fifty years ago. Roll signs were still manfactured with the Woodlawn Road destination long after that time, so it still seems fair to count it as a non-existent street.
How would you consider station names of streets that have had name changes. I am thinking of the # 7 line -
33rd Street was Rawson Street
40th Street was Lowery Street
46th Street was Bliss Street
52nd Street was Lincoln Avenue
69th Street was Fisk Avenue
These streets were known by their numbers since before I was a kid in the 50's.
Yeah...I remember that the stations on the 7 had both the old names and the new street numbers for a long time. Do they still?
However, I was asking specifically about destination signs. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but I don't think any of the stations you mentioned appeared on destination signs. :-)
Those station names that had both the old and new street names have long since been removed. All that remains now are the new street names. Subway maps have also been changed to reflect the final changes.
How would you consider station names of streets that have had name changes. I am thinking of the # 7 line -
33rd Street was Rawson Street
40th Street was Lowery Street
46th Street was Bliss Street
52nd Street was Lincoln Avenue
69th Street was Fisk Avenue
These streets were known by their numbers since before I was a kid in the 50's.
The conversion of Queens street names to numbers happened many years ago, back in the 1920's or 1930's if I recall correctly.
Numbers may make more sense, logically speaking, but the old names do have a bit of character that's of course lacking with the numbers. I'm glad that the station names preserved the old names for many years.
What about 90th Street - Elmhurst Avenue?
Maybe when the El opened, Elmhurst Ave was considered the major road and 90 St wasn't put in yet. If you've ever been to where Elmhurst Ave meets 37 Ave at 94-95 Streets, Elmhurst Ave seems to continue on the road that is now called 37 Ave.
Neck Road on the Brighton (Q) line. The actual name of the cross street is Gravesend Neck Road.
-- Ed Sachs
It is the only Neck Road in the city, now that Flatlands Neck Road is part of Kings Highway.
Maybe NYC didn't want to use the word "GRAVESEND" for the name of a subway station. Just like Malbone St further up the line.
This is borderline, but there's no actual 59th Street at Columbus Circle -- the street to the west is interrupted by a superblock, and the street to the east is known as Central Park South.
Similarly, while there is a 110th Street, there is no such street at the 2/3 station by that name. (The TA is currently phasing in the correct name of the street there, Central Park North.)
Do me a favor and find me an Ely, Van Alst, or a Van Wyck Boulevard. Those names have lingered largely due to the IND tile. (However, they are useful as all three stations would otherwise be easy to confuse with other stations.)
And I think the station at 23 St-Ely Ave is one of the most attractive tile jobs on the IND. (so I hope they never cover the mosaics to get rid of the last remnant of "Ely"). It's a shame how they covered the name tablet tiles at MottHaven (138th St) in the Bronx.
Agreed, the colors there are very appealing.
Do me a favor and find me an Ely
I think I read that Ely Ave is 23rd St, before they renamed to using just numbers in that area (hmmm... was it forgottenny?).
Also, Ely Ave was no longer called such before that station was even built.
Yes, Ely is the real name for 23rd Street. I hate the fact that Queens lost all it's "real" names. Brooklyn luckily didn't do the same. If anything, if Queens had to do it, they should have kept the real names with a hyphen "23rd St-Ely Ave". Byt siunce they didn't, I have no idea why they called the station Ely, as it was already gone when the station was built, as mentioned. Probably just to not confuse it with Manhattan's 23rd St.
Maybe the Ely designation was retained, as you say, to avoid confusion with Manhattan's 23rd Street. But it doesn't help. I work in the area, and loads of people come off the E and V trains thinking they're at 23rd Street in Manhattan. Each train stops at 23rd along 8th and 6th Avenues respectively. Not only people coming from eastern Queens, but some who boarded in Midtown and went the wrong way!
There are even some people who got on BELOW 23rd Street (or on the F from Brooklyn prior to this past December) who STILL end up at Ely. Didn't they notice they already passed the 'right' 23rd Street?!
You'll never find those streets.
Ely Avenue became 23rd Street when Queens switched to street-numbering systems.
Van Alst - same thing - became 21st Street.
Van Wyck Boulevard became the Van Wyck Expressway under Robert Moses. What bothers me is that there is NEW, white on black signage in the mezzanine of that station that points travelers to the "Van Wyck Boulevard" exit of the station. I have followed that sign and lo and behold, I emerged on the Van Wyck Expressway service road.
At the Briarwood/Van Wyck station (which actually lies under the expressway, NOT Queens Boulevard) there are secondary directional signs on the platform indicating 85th Avenue. Problem is, there's no 85th Avenue anywhere in the area of the Queens Boulevard/Main Street/Van Wyck confluence where the north exit- connected to the mezzanine by a long passageway- is located. There's no 85th Avenue intersecting the southbound service road by the south exit. The first street you get to after passing the cemetery is 87th Avenue.
Maybe there was when the IND came through in 1937. But it may have been wiped out by the mid-fifties extension of the Van Wyck north from Hillside Avenue to the Kew Gardens interchange and the lengthy underpass exit under Queens Boulevard, the Briarwood library and Manton Street to become Main Street.
Traveling west to east on Queens Boulevard through the area, you intersect in order: 83rd/Hoover Avenues; southbound Van Wyck service road/southbound Main Street (which Hagstrom still calls 84th Road); northbound Van Wyck service road/northbound Main Street; 84th Drive; 86th Avenue; 87th Avenue.
There's a secondary sign on one side of the 65th Street platform- I forget which- referring to Rowan Street. That must've been the 1933 name for what is now 63rd Street. Either way, the exit is long gone.
Similar to the Nereid/238th conundrum, the 6 has a 143rd/Saint Mary's Street station. The numerical positioning is for 143rd Street, but it's officially called Saint Mary's, possibly because it passes a park of the same name several blocks west.
via cut and paste:
[Curve]
[Train] N E W S R E L E A S E
Update on Acela Service
Latest News Release
08/17/02 -Amtrak to Restore Majority of Acela Express Service on Monday
Updated Service Announcement for Monday, August 19 and Tuesday, August 20
Schedules for Monday, August 19 and Tuesday, August 20 can be found by returning to the home page and filling in your origin, destination and date in the Fare Finder.
The Fare Finder will reflect all schedule adjustments as they occur. Please check back to verify schedules as close as possible to your date and time of travel or contact Amtrak at 1-800-USA-RAIL.
For Acela Express service on Monday and Tuesday, the Acela Express trains will be used primarily in peak periods to accommodate the greatest number of passengers. For Monday, these departures include (partial schedule):
*
Southbound from Boston at 6:15 a.m., 8:15 a.m., 3:15 p.m., 4:15, 5:15 p.m.
* Northbound from New York at 7:03 a.m., 8:03 a.m., 9:03 a.m., 10:03 a.m., 5:00 p.m. 6:00 p.m. 7:00 p.m.
*
Southbound from New York at 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m., 10:00 a.m., 5:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., 8:00 p.m., 9:00 p.m.
* Northbound from Washington at 5:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m., 7:00 a.m., 2:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., 5:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m. and 8:30 p.m.
For Tuesday, these Acela Express departures include (partial schedule):
*
Southbound from Boston at 5:15 a.m., 6:15 a.m., 8:15 a.m., 1:15 p.m., 4:15, 5:15 p.m.
* Northbound from New York at 7:03 a.m., 9:03 a.m., 10:03 a.m., 5:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m.
*
Southbound from New York at 7:00 a.m., 8:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m., 10:00 a.m., 12:00 Noon, 5:00 p.m., 8:00 p.m., 9:00 p.m.
*
Northbound from Washington at 6:00 a.m., 7:00 a.m., 2:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m., 4:00 p.m., 5:00 p.m., 6:00 p.m.
*
Reminder: The Fare Finder will reflect all schedule adjustments as they occur. Click here to return to our home page and simply fill in your stations and the date you plan to travel.
Glad to hear they're rolling again. Here's hoping it lasts ...
hey guys just letting you know today went well. LOL i got to be a human sponge listenin to all the "WELCOME TO MTA STUFF" what was really interesting is what i wanna bring to you all
WHY IS IT THAT MTA DOESNT ALLOW ALL ITS DIVISIONS(LIRR, MNRR AND THE OTHERS) TO USE ONE PASS THAT ALLOWS FOR ALL FREE RIDES?
LOL THE PACKAGE I GOT TODAY SAYS DO NOT USE THE PASS ON ANYTHING OTHER THAN METRO NORTH RAILROAD. IF U ARE CAUGHT UR PASS WILL BE CONFISCATED AND U WILL GET A I.D WITHOUT FREE RIDE PRIVILEDGES.
LOL THEY SAY THAT BUT WE ALL KNOW ITS NOT TRUE
WHY? I HAVE SEEN IT DONE! LIRR WORKERS GETTING ON MNR, MNR GUYS GETTING ON LIRR. MY FRIEND EVEN WORKS FOR AMTRAK AND AMTRAK SAYS THE SAME THING, DO NOT RIDE ANY OTHER TRAIN BESIDES AMTRAK WITH UR PASS. HOWEVER, I HAVE RIDDEN WITH HIM, AND AS I GET ON NJ TRANSIT AND LIRR, HE DOESNT PAY FOR EITHER ONE!!!! HE JUST ASKED THE C/R FOR A RIDE AND IT USUALLY WORKS UNLESS U GET A STRICT ONE WHO SLEEPS WITH THE RULEBOOK! I HAVE EVEN SEEN MY DAD (A NYCTA B/O) GET ON A SHORELINER MNR TRAIN WITH ME HEADED FROM HARMON SHOP TO GCT LAST YEAR ON THE 129 EXPRESS FROM THE OPEN HOUSE. HE WAS REACHING IN HIS POCKET FOR THE TICKET TO GIVE TO THE ASSISTANT CONDUCTOR, BUT HE DROPS HIS WALLET AND THE NYCTA ID FALL OUT! TELL ME WHY THE CONDUCTOR SAYS NEVERMIND, ENJOY UR RIDE!!!! AND HE RODE FOR FREE!!!
EXPLAIN!!!!
lower case = indoor voice.
There's what is said in class, and what happens in the field; and they are two very different things.
One way to make this "professional courtesy" among railroaders go away fast, would be to post about it on a public message board like this one, so the MTA brass might take notice and do something.
They did one thing...told us our MTA parking permits were good only on TA property because some dummies chose to park in bus stops.
IF you work M/F RDOs S/S and you show your ID proudly....yah get to slide. If you work weekends/holidays...yah might have to cough up a buck. We are all MTA: Subway, LIRR, MetroNorth. There should be but is no link. It is just courtesy...show your ID...get a free ride...or be asked and pay for the transit. Show your ID and accept what the conductor accepts...yah have to pay if asked or your commiting fair fraud. it's like my parking permit and IDs...i can park on any MTA lot at any time BUT does not give me a privilidge to park anywhere on city streets at any time...i pay my parking meters but I get a Civil Service break if the meter expires ten minutes before the 7pm CUTOFF. Work travel is one thing...pleasure trips using your ID off line is another matter. MTA wants you to use your lines of service for free because you can lend a hand oficially in an emergency...out of line and your are outside of employment. A law enforcement wallet containing your official ID and a civil service badge buys a little more respect. CI Peter
seems to me this is a bunch of C%#P. A fine thing for Mr Toussaint & co to add to the contract talks would be all MTA employees regardless of title or division free on all MTA operations as of right--union or executive exempt. BTW I remember in the sixties a bus driver on 14th street putting his hand over the farebox telling the nuns they needn't pay.
The ultimate purpose of this type of courtesy is to have MTA employees available in an emergency. Few riders would have technical expertise but most have track safety training. IF an incident occurs, there is only the T/O and C/R on a trainset to support passenger guidance and safety. Reason why a uniformed Police Officer rides for free.
As for 'Olde Roger,' this matter would probably NOT be part of a contract agreement. I did some serious inquiries into this...you are a TA employee going to work and an incident occurs where you lend a hand and are late to work...you do get paid for your time with identifying the line/time/trainset especially when you have a wireless phone and call into the car desk (above ground of course.) MTA wants us to use mass transit instead of driving...another reason of extending 'courtesy'...problem is train travel is so slow...guys ride the subway for nearly two hours from Brooklyn...I can drive from Manhattan to Coney Island in 35 minutes. CI Peter
I see we are coming at this from different frames of reference. When I worked in various bookstopres, I got a discount on nooks I purchased. That was a job perk pure and simple. To me the idea that an employee of the MTA has to pay a fare whether an office worker, maintenance person or train crew is flat wrong. I AM NOT talking about ability to be a third body in an "event", just using the system which you work for. As a parallel when I talked to New York Telephone in the 60's some of the perks were, steep discount on home phone service and smaller on long distance. Similarly, pre ATK, RR workers AND family got either freebie's or very steep discounts on RR trips.In the present era with many companies nationwide giving tax free commuter 'checks' to workers, maybe its time for the MTA to get with the program. Now we all know its cheaper to let them ride free than do the paperwork to send a check every month, so...
My mom is an ATTco retireree...no more phenomenal perks for newer employees! They give you a choice now...free long distance with a limit or free local service no matter who your carrier is. MTA won't lose income with MTA employees riding...even when the ID card is NOT scanned. We are on the same plane...everyone benifits with all MTA employees riding 'for free' on every MTA line...subways, busses, MetroNorth and LIRR. Better yet, extend the priviledge...NJT and New Haven/Hudson. Like I said, work M/F and you usually 'get to slide.'
Work RDOs like T/W and chances are you may have to pay on Saturday and Sunday IF the conductor doesn't like you. Be a man amongst men and dress as a nun in a habit. CI Peter
And AT&T's retirees get treated better than current employees... they just cut the long distance benefit dramatically for management employees, and imposed so many restrictions on it that most employees aren't even bothering to file for it. But that's the wave of the future... no employee perks at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The old management lived like royalty but died like Hoffa...ATTco forgot the employees that built up the company but was obligated to live under agreements. Worst job interview I had...twenty nine years ago at ATTco and could not get employed to mop floors. Wanted so much to work for LongLines HF maritime...all is history now just like the company I worked for after graduating from RCA Institutes. CI Peter
>>> That was a job perk pure and simple. To me the idea that an employee of the MTA has to pay a fare whether an office worker, maintenance person or train crew is flat wrong <<<
Which perks will be given, and to whom are a management decision. With union members it is a bargaining chip during negotiations, and with non-union personnel, the decision to grant a perk is made based on what it costs the company compared to how much in salary can be saved by offering the perk rather than a greater amount of money to make up for it. Perks are never just given because management are nice guys.
Tom
>>management are
nice guys. <<
I asure you I was not confused on this point. I am well aware that perks are neither automatic nor universal. That does not vhange my belief that certain perks are "deserved" by the workers. Yes these are bargaing points for unions--at present there is much brouhaha in Berekeley over whether the University (by far the largest employer/trip generator in the entire East Bay) will provide incentivs for transit use to employees or try to build more parking. One should note that the students now have a very cheap transit pass sticker for their student ID's. Sadly it is only good on local buses because BART does not cooperate.
>>>Sadly it is only good on local buses because BART does not cooperate. <<<
Does Mr. Burns cooperate? How about Lisa? 8-)
(sorry cheap joke, just couldn't resist. I'll go and punish myself now.)
Peace,
ANDEE
How about Lyle Lanley and his monorail?
Do the braindead slobs with the cushy jobs get passes to ride Springfield buses, like the 22 and 22A?
nice turn. actually MUNI passes are not much of an issue outside SF.
That does not vhange my belief that certain perks are "deserved" by the workers.
Perks aren't deserved by the workers; it's part of their compensation package.
Let's just say you worked for Metro North, would you rather collect extra cash each week, or get a pass that lets you ride the Long Island Rail Road, something that you never have need or desire to do?
Giving employees passes costs the agency money because those employees are no longer paying money for their rides. If the employee rides the service anyway, it's a good deal, because the extra cash that they would collect is taxable, the free pass isn't.
It's called unofficial "professional courtesy" but is NOT endorsed or approved by management and some hardnose somewhere can give you a royal hard time. It's sorta the same deal with police officers when they get pulled over by a cop in another jurisdiction. As long as they're not doing something stupid, flashing the badge usually results in "have a nice day" when travelling. But it's a personal courtesy and could actually result in the "other guy" getting in serious trouble.
I often rode for free on the Penn Central with my "Ronan Empire" pass as well as Amtrak although the UTU card got me more than the employee pass. That ID also got me MANY a cab ride too. You take care of your own, because nobody else will. :)
It's called unofficial "professional courtesy...But it's a personal courtesy and could actually result in the "other guy" getting in serious trouble.
Precisely. Although, it's not really true about "serious trouble" unless the guy in question is already in trouble. In some parts of Ohio, there is courtsey between Greyhound and Amtrak employees. Some of the non-union f**kers don't know and don't care, but you still have to pay them. But then, you can be the most obnoxious customer you want.
And you're dead right, if they ask for a fare, you should pay it.
AEM7
Actually, it depends on the carrier and who YOU'RE with. UTU guys aren't impressed by a TWU pass (although most don't have a problem) but in the event you encounter a former TWU guy, now UTU you might have to pay a fare and a "bought it with cash penalty" on top. And TRY to tell me a TWU station agent will watch you flash an Amtrak employee pass and buzz you through. Not gonna happen. :)
Many times, we do let Amtrak, Greyhound, NJT uniformed employees in. I have gotten free rides on Amtrak and NJT and change of rserevation on Greyhound. For NJT I do buy the tickets if I am going off my monthly ticket for MetroPark to NY Penn. such as MetroPark to Trenton/Philly.I travel with my pass and if the crew member takes the pass they simply refuse to take my ticket and just leave the seat check. I have yet to get rfewe rides on Metro North, LIRR, PATCO or SEPTA. I have go tten free PATH rides at more than one station. I have worked a lunch at a station with A PATH Agent a their fare control. One time there was an incident and after checking our side I walekd over top the PATH agent and told them and requested they check their area. (yes- they did check their area and thanked me.)
The problem is with non-uniformed employees claimign to work for AMtrak, NJT, etc. and not even bothering to flash their pass or so fast we cant see the pass. Of course, if we know supervision is around then we must refuse entry unl;ess the supervisor allows it (and yes- many do allow .)
Didn't know it was even permitted. I remember when I worked for the TA, I'd flash at the gate at 205th St, I'd get yelled at to come TO the booth for a closer "look see" of my official bus pass card, then get waved on finally. What's funny about it is this ritual went on almost every morning for MONTHS. AFTER I left the system of course, the person in the booth would look at me when I went to slide my cash under the window and ask me why I didn't just go through. :)
It is unwritten and they have to come to the booth. The reason many supervisors allow it is because they get free rides too.
Next, you're going to want a free ride over MTA Bridges and Tunnels.
I'll be impressed when an MTA badge buys you a taxi. :)
I don't care much concern about free rides and all, but I believe all MTA employees should at least get an EZ-PASS discount for all Bridges and Tunnels crossings. My bro-in-law has to cross the Verrazano Bridge almost 4 times a day and he tells me he doesn't get B&T privledges. But I heard Staten Island residents get a sort of discount. Is this true? Bro-in-law is T/W at 38 Street Yard
Let me think: One way toll at VzBridge, increased to eight bucks...Staten Island residents of record get a substantial discount...and is not the Staten Island ferry free??? Someone once told me car transport is very cheap on the ferry and most useful when the whole Manhattan/Brooklyn/VzBridge infrastructure is overloaded to a halt. CI Peter
Cars are no longer allowed on the ferry due to 9/11/01. And the ferry became free when MTA started the Metrocard Gold with free transfers.
If you violate the rules as stated on your pass, you are subject to your employer's discretion regarding punishment.
You never know when, or under what circumstances this could be held against you.
Perhaps there is a form of informal professional courtsey among the different railroads - but don't abuse it. You never know...
I just got back from my vacation in Connecticut. What a beautiful state. But that's another story. On September 8 the MTA's going to do construction work at Coney Island. All I know is the Q and F are no longer going to terminate at Stillwell Avenue. Can someone else please fill me in? Where are all the trains going to terminate? What other lines are going to be affected? Thanks in Advance
The N and W lines will also be affected. They finally put posters in the stations about the new changes.
- The N will run from Ditmars/Astoria to 86th Street, Brooklyn via Montague Tunnel (unfortunately), making all stops in Queens and Manhattan and express stops in Brooklyn, weekdays 6 AM to midnight. During late nights, the N will run only between 36th Street and 86th Street, express along 4th Avenue. Weekends, the N will run express from Pacific to 86th Street, also express along 4th Avenue.
- The W will run from Ditmars/Astoria to Stillwell 24/7 and will be the only train stopping there. It will run its current weekday 6 AM-midnight route, except it will stop at 49th Street all times. However, during late nights and weekends when the N will only be running in Brooklyn, the W will make all local stops in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn and run in the Montague Tunnel.
I think that's right...
yep plus both Q's will be ending at Brighton Bch and the F at Ave.X.
shuttle buses will take people to CI from those places.the F shuttle bus stop is already up right where the B74 stops,and i saw another bus stop across the street but i didnt see the route.is the Q shuttle gonna use that stop or is that gonna be the new stop for the B64 and the Q shuttle is gonna use the current B64 bus stop? i know this should be a question posted on bustalk but since yet again whats happening on 9/8 was brought up,might as well ask it here.
Pretty much, although the late night N and R will be running all the way to Pacific.
Cortlandt on the N/R (R/W on weekends, W only at night) will also supposedly open at the same time. From the signage on the street entrances, it looks like both platforms will be open, with SB access via the underpass. Better than nothing, I guess.
The IRT changes are supposedly taking place a week later, although I haven't seen anything from an official source.
So long into Short:
-The F will run from Jamaica to Avenue X
-Weekdays the N will do it's current route, but nights and Weekends It will run express to Pacific Street
-The Q will terminate at Brighton Beach
-The R will be extended to Pacific Street late nights
-Weekdays the W will run on it's current route, but nights and weekends It will run on the N.
Did I get it right?
I found my first insulator today, where yesterday's tree fell.
A white ceramic one, pulled out of a fallen crossarm.
So what about RR insulators, like the glass ones? Where is the bets place to look for those?
I found a few of the old green-glass ones at antique shops.
I also got a few when they were removing the telegraph wires/poles along the LIRR Montauk Branch a few years back. They had piles of the old poles just lying along the tracks.
I'll have to keep my eyes open for them on the Oyster Bay branch. On two sections, one between Glen street and Locust Valley, the other just before Mineola, there are old poles with glass insulators, some fallen down. Also in Mineola there appear to be spurs going into industrial building parking lots, abandoned long ago.
I understand insulators have value to collectors if they have the name of a railroad on them.
www.railroadinsulators.com or www.whatjohnfoundinthestreet.org
I gotta admit. My wife is no Salaam Allah when it comes to rapid transit photography. Last week during our cross country car trip my wife who was taking pictures throughout the trip took three pictures of the Las Vegas Monorail. The third one is an interior picture with my 6 year old son Arthur. Anyone who wants to save the pictures should do so ASAP as I will be deleting them from my angelfire site in a couple of weeks for space.
Attn: Dave- Although they are not really too good, you have my permission to use any of them for your site.
The pics are at:http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/Vegas_Monorail.html
Oh, THAT monorail. The one between MGM and Ballys? Been there, done that. I thought you had pictures of that new monorail they're supposed to be building....
Re: The Las Vegas new Monorail they're supposed to be building....?
what? a new monorail??
man i will be sure 2 go over dere' C' dat'....!!
Yep....they're building it as we "speak". Check out www.lvmonorail.com.
thank you for the comment on my transit photography !!
i guess it takes a lot of pratice ..you know i did see that monorail & another one at buffalo bills / primadonna ( when it is not windy )
anybody rode the people mover at the getty center ???
I have ridden the Getty Center "tram" (that's what they call it) numerous times. It floats on a cushion of air and is powered by a cable. Nothing like it exists elsewhere. The price is certainly right - it's free, and the view from the top is spectacular. Of course, the museum has a superb collection of art.
If anyone reading this likes railfan windows, the Getty tram can't be beat. It's almost a full-length window, kept immaculately clean, and the scenery is the best in Southern California. It's not steel wheels on steel rails, but still...
yea i am going to ride that one too very soon .....thankz
Is that off to the left as you drive on the 405 North from LAX?
CG
Is that off to the left as you drive on the 405 North from LAX?
Correct.
Sorry to report, but that is NOT a MONORAIL at Buffalo Bill's!!!!
(No, I'm not talking about the huge yellow and brown rail thing.....that's my favorite roller coaster, desperado!)
Oh, they CALL the train thing between Buffalo Bill's and Prima Donna a "Monorail" but if you've ever ridden it, look at the tracks. They are using the old rails and ties from when they used to run fake steam loco trains from BB's to Prima Donna and across the freeway to Whiskey Pete's. The "monorail" nowadays just LOOKS LIKE a monorail.
And that other piece of crap that crosses the freeway from Prima Donna to Whiskey Pete's is also NOT a monorail. It is a rubber tired room being pulled back and forth on a flat roadway/guideway.
Just like the ones at Circus Circus....and the one between Monte Carlo and Bellagio.
The REAL monorail in Vegas presently runs from MGM-Grand to Bally's and uses a pair of former Walt Disney World 1981-vintage trains that were rehabilitated in 1994. This line IS being extended further up the strip.
Next thing you know there'll be slot machines in the monorail cars. Hey, I was most surprised last week to find slots right in the terminals at the airport. Anything to make a buck, I guess.
The thing that really shocked me about Vegas is that children are allowed in the casinos!!!
The thing that really shocked me about Vegas is that children are allowed in the casinos!!!
That really surprises me. When we were waiting for our flight to Phoenix in the B terminal at McCarran a week ago Sunday, one of the slot machine attendants raised a ruckus when my 17-y.o. stepdaughter merely walked within a few feet of one of the banks of machines. While I didn't see the encounter, apparently the woman went on about how minors cannot go within ten feet of the slots, which given their location in the terminal was quite an obstacle for minors trying to get to the restaurants or shops. She was quite obnoxious about it, but fortunately she got plenty of lip in return, the stupid ho.
The same thing happened to me when I was 17 in 1986, when (on a family vacation) flying out of Las Vegas when I was walking towards a gift shop. The ones who should get yelled at is the shitheads who placed the slot machine in the airport (a public transit facility, not a f**king adult casino!
Good for you for standing up for your stepdaughter and tearing this skank a new asshole.
Good for you for standing up for your stepdaughter and tearing this skank a new asshole.
Heh heh, I had no need to stand up for her, she was quite capable of talking back herself to the stupid woman :)
>>The thing that really shocked me about Vegas is that children are allowed in the casinos!!!<<
Gotta clarify that....children are allowed to walk THROUGH the casinos as long as they are accompanied by an adult and as long as they keep moving. This is necessary since the entrances to many restaurants and other attractions are located directly off the casino floor. For example, my son and I used to bowl at the Gold Coast in Las Vegas, and the only way into the bowling center was up an escalator from the casino. (It's done that way, of course, so that adults are forced into crossing through the casino on their way into and out of those attractions, in the hope that a good number of them will stop to gamble.) However, minors are NOT permitted to loiter in the casino gaming areas, not even to watch adults play. The Nevada Gaming Commission doles out large fines to casinos that fail to enforce that regulation.
True -- in the MGM Grand you can't get from the Las Vegas Blvd. side of the hotel to the downstairs esceallator to the monorail without traversing about a quarter mile of casino slot mahines, no matter which way you go (Bally's, being a lot smaller, allows you to stay out of the path of much of the casion from the monorail terminal on the east side of the hotel to the main entrance one flight up on the west side).
All the casinos are designed in such a way that you MUST traverse half the casino floor to get to:
Hotel Check-In
restaurants
Restrooms
Family Amusement Parks
Exits
No matter where you want to go in the hotel, you must somehow go through the casinos. They even hide the restroooms in corners, so you have to walk around the casino more to find them.
True, but at Bally's (unless things have changed in the past year) the path from the Monorail to Las Vegas Blvd. only carries you directly past one bank of slots on the lower level, just before the escalator. Once you get to the upper level, the cansino is in the middle of the main lobby, which is slightly sunken from the outer walkway, which limits its slots to the area along the railing closest to the casino. The outer wall is for check-in, elevators, stores, etc.
The MGM Grand, in contrast, is a maze of slots and other gaming tables, which you have to go through in a zig-zag fashion from the Monorail escalator area (which comes up just east of the main drive-up entrance) to the front area near Las Vegas Blvd. There's just no way to walk around it for a family with under-18 kids.
And it's not just the casinos either. Go into any convenience store or restaurant, even ones located on the other side of town from the Strip, and there are slots in the entryway. So the kids can't stay away from them no matter how hard they try. That's just one of the reasons my daughter and her family moved from Las Vegas to Kingman, Arizona.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are a few of the newer casinos, and even some newer areas in some of the older casinos, which have been designed to be more "family friendly", so that people with children don't have to go through casino areas to get to attractions, but in the majority of casinos, you do need to traverse a portion of the casino to get to any of the restaurants, etc.
They ARE allowed in the casinos...but don't let a child get caught standing still!!! Three years ago, my stepson, who was 15 at the time, was with my wife and I at the Stratosphere. We were on the way out to the exit, and I stopped to dispose of some extra coinage. They stopped and stoof on the FAR SIDE of the aisleway (against a wall) and within one minute, two security guards came along and rudely told them to "Get Moving or Get Arrested, children may not stand still in casinos!!"
Wanna REALLY piss off the casino security? Carry your 8mm videocam through a casino on the way to the attraction area (such as the Eiffel Tower in Paris....) Believe me, they have NO sense of humor (or courtesy for that matter...)
>>> Wanna REALLY piss off the casino security? Carry your 8mm videocam through a casino on the way to the attraction area (such as the Eiffel Tower in Paris....) Believe me, they have NO sense of humor (or courtesy for that matter...) <<<
I think you are living in the past, Steve. I was sitting at a card table in Vegas and noticed that one of the people standing nearby had a camcorder on a shoulder strap pointed toward the table with the lens cap off, and the lens refocusing as he moved. I mentioned to the dealer that I thought photography was prohibited and complained about being photographed, and he pointed out that we were being watched by the eye in the sky so it was no big deal. He did ask the person to stop recording because of my request, which the man did, but security was not called.
On another occasion in 1990 I taped a wedding party going from the wedding chapel to a restaurant through the casino without being challenged by security.
Tom
I think it depends a lot on the specific casino--Paris is the place I got the evil eye from security, even though I was heading for the stairs to access the Tower.
I've also carried the camera through Buffalo Bill's with no problem, but they do get finicky about it on the roller coaster station platform. (I'd love toknow how some people managed to videotape the entire coaster ride from start to stop -- holding the camera would have been a major feat as rough as that coaster is...)
I was stopped in Circus Circus with a camera about 5 years ago. I had it in most other casinos, and wasn't stopped anywhere else. I don't think they usually mind, as long as you are not snapping photos everywhere as you walk through.
Not being a gambler, I have to ask:
Why are casinos skittish about people taking pictures?
Peace,
ANDEE
Casing the place for a major robbery (similar to the one 20 years ago in Reno when the robbers then wired up the casino to explode). Now, of course, you also have a certain amount of terrorist concerns thrown into the mix as well from anyone who is seen taking an excessive amount of video of the inside of any of the casinos.
They want to "respect peoples' privacy"....inother words, they don';t want to identify those tossing their money at the casino and make them a possible criminal target.
LOL....I have seen people with cameras get treated rather rudely by casino security. It does vary by casino, though. In fact, at Excalibur, there used to be signs posted in the casino advertising that it was PERMITTED to take photographs anywhere in the casino! I wonder if that policy is still in effect....I haven't been there in a while.
There is also a "monorail" type system that connects the Bellagio and the Monte Carlo. It's a pretty nice system. Unfortunately, I barely even remember riding it. A few years ago I was there on superbowl Sunday, and was staying in the Monte Carlo. I was so drunk on my way back to the hotel, and must have took the "train" because, even in that state, I still knew to take out my video camera, and actually have some very nice footage going from Bellagio to Monte Carlo.
to all of the threads on this subject ......thankz for the linkz.....
man i look foward 2 a nice trip 2 nevada 2 shoot this when it starts
running !! day / night shotz !!
allright !! appreciate the info folks !! ...........lol !!
List:
In wanderings this past weekend, 6571-6575 and 7026-7030 were the Test Train. Expect this to be consist #21 on the 5 very soon.
On hand at The East were 7031-7035, while 7036-7040 were on their flats with blue baggies at Fresh Pond Yard.
7041-7045 were already in, as noted last week.
Nothing new on the Kawasaki side.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Well Went to the Union hall to talk to the people in the Know.Found out they are a bunch of flakes,But their are several officials looking into coverups of off the street train operators.Seems Penalties were alot stiffer on every promotional T/O from the off the street test list.Get this actual #'s there have been 93 seperate incidences with off the street T/O's ,39 terminations ,17 demotions (mine being the 18).What happened to the other 37?Well they all seem to have been reinstructed for the good of the service or shall we say the good of the list.Thats why the list was cut short and there will be a promotinal only test filing in Feb.My Grievance was filed and I am not expecting much out of it.Not getting my hopes up but tell you guys 1 thing It all comes down to who you know and who you blow at Jay st.
Sadly, that's always been the way. Here's hoping you can go for it again in February ...
Then I'd drop the outside bridge tracks, and put three tracks (one for G.O.s, two for the Broadway Express) down the center of the Manny B.
Someone else had written this from another post. I was thinking the same thing. If DOT or whoever else is concerned about the structural integrety of the Manny B., why not move the tracks to the inside of the bridge and swap with the roadway? Would there be enough room for four tracks across in the center? Just a thought. Could it be done?
Even if it could, the lower roadway is only three lanes wide, so only two or three tracks would fit. I'd rather keep all four tracks, thank you very much.
OTOH, I've heard that the problems might be reduced if the lower roadway is simply removed. If that's the case, remove it. The two in-service tracks already carry many more people over the bridge than all of the lanes.
Only 3 tracks. Ok, then that does suck. Thought it might be wide enough for 4. I don't want to lose a track either.
These pages are fairly new to a wonderful website. Great pictures of a line that is pretty well gone within NYC. Thought I might pass it on.
Whitestone Branch
I like arrts archives. However it requires a DSL or cable connection because all his pictures come in uncompressed.
People do complain about load times for Forgotten, but at least I do compress as best I can...
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's a shame they abandoned it. It would have mada a great subway addition.
A few of the LIRR lines should not have been abandoned. The remnant of the LIRR Rockaway branch, and the Whitestone branch would have been great additions to the subway system, and provided subway service to areas that really could use it.
The Wading River Branch of the LIRR should also never have been abandoned. The traffic on Route 347 can explain that to anyone. Just before Miller Place, Rocky Point, sound Beach, Shorham, and Wading River started to build up, the line was abandoned. It would be of great use today. I think the ROW is mostly intact (with LIPA lines), but NIMBY's would never allow it to be reopened I would assume.
Even the Central Branch would have provided an easy service to Levittown
It's a shame they abandoned it. It would have mada a great subway addition
It was proposed to be added to the subway system back in the 1920's, but the City passed on the idea.
See more of this report Here
It's amazing how close the former ROW is to the homes there. Were those homes there before the ROW was abandoned? If the homes were built after, it's amazing that those fence posts survived!
I believe it was very much a rural area back then, so all the homes in the photos are new.
I think most of the homes were built after the Whitestone Branch was abondoned.
That's what I find amazing. If you look at the link Bob Anderson gave above, it shows photos of an old fence along the Whitestone branch, and fairly current photos show the old fence posts still there right up against the houses! Somehow they survived when the houses were built, and even after all these years with the houses right there.
It would be interesting to know why the city declined to take over the line in the 1920's. After all, the IND was in development at the time, so the city was thinking in terms of expanding the system.
Maybe Hylan was still the mayor at the time. I don't know of his hatred for the "Traction Interests" also applied to the LIRR. But I wouldn't be surprised if he chose to "ignore" the LIRR ROW. I think the prevailing route planned for the IRT Flushing line was along Roosevelt Ave.
Hi. I wanted to ask if the report stated how the Whitestone branch would be added to the system. I read off your site that it was to be added to the 7 line. Did the report mention where it was to branch off? Probably north of Willets Point Station. I was looking at the document's age (dated June 1928) and saw "City of New York" and thought it might only apply to the as yet unopened IND System. Very sad that they didn't take advantage of this offer yet in only a few months time the proposed routes for the IND Second System (1929) came to light. One of the proposed extensions from Main St. on the 7 line had a branch going to the same area. Part of it was to be a subway. Could have done it a hell of a lot cheaper if the city had taken the line from the LIRR. Politics? Most of the line died soon after in 1932. I remember looking forward to riding by on the Van Wyck and seeing the old LIRR cars wasting away in the swamp right beneath the 7 line. It was like a burial ground. Did have a freight customer there as well til the end. Seeing several boxcars on the siding in between the building and the Van Wyck. Has it ever been said why the line died so young? Why the railroad seemingly wanted to get rid of it? Thanks.
Its a shape they passed on it, the tracks and everything were in place too. Would have done a lot for the area, especially during the Queens bus strike
I must admit I'm rooting against the success of AirTrain. I hope it's a white elephant.
It would point out the MTA/PA (I'm not sure if it's either or both) error in not even considering a direct one-seat ride between midtown and JFK--which would have meant a reactivation/reacqusition of the Rego Park trackage. Instead they took the more politically feasible route and a two seat ride. I admit I'll have to reserve judgement on the transfer point...perhaps it would be a simple cross-platform transfer. But with the 8 tracks at Jamaica I doubt the transfer would be that easy....
www.forgotten-ny.com
It amazes me how the valuable LIRR Rockaway branch was allowed to rot, just because of the one seat ride the LIRR could have provided to JFK. The line should not have been lost to LIRR traffic. With some alterations, the LIRR could have kept it's ROW through to the Liberty Ave El, then ran down the middle to JfK Airport. The subway could have taken over the outer tracks, and provided service the way it does now. It just amazes me how everyone wants rail access to the Airport, and the obvious was just wasted.
It's a sad reality how the MTA, city & state does business.....let what they have go to waste, then waste money on other things that prove to be nothing more than useless wastes of time, money, and big inconveniences. In my opinion, this Air Train is not gonna attract good ridership, except for airline and airport employees mainly coming from Long Island or the Richmond Hill/Kew Gardens area. The Rockaway Line went to waste also because of this big factor... NIMBY!!
NIMBY helped scrap the idea because the affluent, stuck up folks in Rego Park don't wanna give up the land along the ROW they extended their properties on illegally, and also feel the train running behind their yards again will disrupt their community. I think it's all politics, because they (people of Rego Park) were not as animate about stopping the opening of the line to rail traffic again as the people of Jamaica & Ozone Park were about stopping the Air Train ROW building, and the people in Rego Park's NIMBYs were respected and fulfilled, and the people of "not as affluent" Jamaica and Ozone Park were ignored and building went on anyway. It's all city, state, and MTA politics and BS, and because of that a useful rail line went to waste.
That's gotta suck. The MTA never sees the obvious does it?
Since when has it as the MTA created in 1968?
LMAO!!
excuse me, not very good in abriviations?
LMAO = Laugh My A** Off.
Simply mail a signed order telling them to leave the property. By the time they can get a lawsuit you'll be seeing there. Well they could bribe a judge to sign a imidiate injunction but they are simply **tches and not affluent.
If they still refuse, send the police staff to another precinct, so the crime rate goes up ^. Ghetto comes in, ghetto doesn't care about trains in backyard, unless it disrupts the ghetto person from selling crystal meth off his front porch. As long as the neiborhood is similer to south central LA (whatever that is). Nobody will care about that they have acela 10 feet away.
If we have to distroy a neiborhood, we have to.
Though we could acuse the NIMBYs of "terroism of a transit's system growth", "treason against NY State's capitol improvements budget" with thoses 9/11 laws.
"the people of Jamaica & Ozone Park were about stopping the Air Train ROW building"
The people living in Jamaica and Ozone Park, by and large, did not oppose AirTrain. Only two dozen people out of 600,000 were truly and sincerely against it. Others who showed up at public hearings were driven there by airline-funded transportation and given airline-funded T-shirts and airline-funded rhetoric.
This was a battle between the airlines and the PA, and the PA won.
it amazes me how the valuable LIRR Rockaway branch was allowed to rot, just because of the one seat ride the LIRR could have provided to JFK.
I agree it's stupid, but IMHO, I don't think a 'one seat' ride would have happened anyway...
Why?
FRA.
Yes.
Because to do this, all the trackage would have to be FRA controlled, thus, you'd have to buy FRA compliant cars, run at FRA track specs (less superelevation, less unbalance, etc), need FRA compliant signalling, NO automagic operation, and a slew of other things that would add greatly to the operational costs. By building a sepperate system, Airtrain gets away from FRA regulations, and can do more. The last thing the P/A wants is ANOTHER FRA mandated headache, as Path is enough for them (they actually had to fight for a waiver of the FRA's buff strength regulations, which are worthless for rapid transit cars anyway)
The line should not have been lost to LIRR traffic.
Agreed. but by now, reactivating it would be politically hopeless.
With some alterations, the LIRR could have kept it's ROW through to the Liberty Ave El, then ran down the middle to JfK Airport.
Alterations which would have included distance sepperation, and barrier walls between the different lines. Silly, but that's where the regulations are headed (in fact, the FRA has sugessted that not only would 'mainline' and 'rapid transit' tracks be sepperated this way, but such walls would have to include intrusion detection.
The subway could have taken over the outer tracks, and provided service the way it does now.
Technically feasable, econimically sensable. Regulatory wise, impossible. You'd have to roll the NYCTA under FRA regulation to do it, and i'm sure more than one beaurucrat in DC would love to see that...
It just amazes me how everyone wants rail access to the Airport, and the obvious was just wasted.
It was obvious, but it wouldn't have been ideal anyway. The ideal system would offer a one seat ride with a stop at Jamacia, in addition to Penn. That's not going to happen anytime soon, though it's perfectly feasable.
Any system that offers a 'one seat' ride to Penn would come under FRA regulation (Path would have been OPTO'd years ago if not for the FRA), and that would mean a lot of regulations that would effectively kill any ecoomics surrounding the system. Even if you did ultimately save money using the existing ROW (and that's a big 'if', depending on court battles, etc'), you'd get creamed in operational costs - you'd need 2 person crews on every airtrain, for starters. You'd end up with a slower system (less ridership), you'd need regular inspections, heavier cars, numerous testing and certification programs, etc etc etc. That's a lot of money for a glorified people mover.
Hook it into the queens blvd line. At least have a across
the platform transfer at woodhaven. Woodhaven has provisons for island platforms R P L E E L P R
o l o x x o l o
c a c p p c a c
k t a r r a t k
a f l e e l f a
w o s s o w
a r s s r a
y m m y
s s
like the little drawing does above. The rockaway trains don't have to continue to manhatten. Maybe have some lay up tracks beneath queens blvd. I would think they should face forest hills since the M line and Rockaway line H can go to Forest Hills/Jamaica yard after the G and R and Q (SAS yeah right!) are extended further east ["A" line can go to east one (far rockaway?) while the H goes to the west end (rockaway park?)].
Hook it into the queens blvd line. At least have a across
the platform transfer at woodhaven. Woodhaven has provisons for island platforms
R P L E E L P R
o l o x x o l o
c a c p p c a c
k t a r r a t k
a f l e e l f a
w o s s o w
a r s s r a
y m m y
s s
like the little drawing does above. The rockaway trains don't have to continue to manhatten. Maybe have some lay up tracks beneath queens blvd. I would think they should face forest hills since the M line and Rockaway line H can go to Forest Hills/Jamaica yard after the G and R and Q (SAS yeah right!) are extended further east ["A" line can go to east one (far rockaway?) while the H goes to the west end (rockaway park?)].
what in the hell is that?
You couldn't run ver many LIRR trains down a Rockaway line anyway, because there's not enough East River capacity. MTA is now building the rest of the 63rd Street LIRR connection to GCT ("East Side Access") and that will help, but this will not be available to us riders for several more years.
They must've been able to do it years ago, so how did they do it then?
More LI-Penn commuters now than back in 1956.
The rail schedule and demand now make comparisons invalid.
It would be a problem only 2 hours per weekday in the peak direction, during which time they can run out of Hunterspoint Av, and one can take it from there or from Woodside, which is still more convenient than going out to Jamaica and changing.
Really? If that were true, MTA would have already found ways to use the Hunterspoint station more than a couple of times a day. Obviously, LIRR customers by and large strongly disagree with you.
Maybe, with economic development continuing in LIC, there will be more of a reason to use that station as a destination (I hope so). But until then, the best transfer options to any destination (airport or otherwise) exist at Jamaica Station. Its $400 million renovation will make the whole station easier to use.
No, Joe is saying that if AirTrain were integrated into LIRR, it could still run into Penn all times but rush hours. Rush hours it could go to Hunterspoint with a stop at Woodside, both potentially more useful transfer points than Jamaica or Howard Beach.
If I lived in the Bronx still, I think I'd pass on doubling back when a cab ride would still get me there faster over the Triborough and all. But I'm sure Long Island will love it, and in the greater scheme of things politically, pleasing Long Island is *far* more important than pleasing city residents. Airtrain wasn't built for "city people."
I'm afraid you hit the nail on the head. Never mind that almost all Long Island households have cars and will continue to drive to the airport, while most NYC households don't have cars (check the census data if you don't believe that!) and will still largely have no convenient way to get to the airport.
I disagree with Kevin on two counts. First, I do hope AirTrain is a success, although I'm very doubtful. Second, I don't think an LIRR connection would have been very useful in comparison to an A train connection. Although the LIRR is nominally faster to Penn Station, it doesn't stop anywhere else in Manhattan, and its one stop is adjacent to only two subway trunk lines, while the A itself already takes lots of Brooklyn and Manhattan residents home and connects to every other line in the system apart from the 6.
I do think the Port Authority has no business eliminating the free bus from Howard Beach, considering that the planned AirTrain fare is $5.00. I expect that the Q10 connection at Lefferts will suddenly become a lot more popular the day AirTrain opens.
While I don't disagree with the assertion that the old Rockaway line would've been a better routing, Airtrain at least shows that something can get built in New York today. It is proof that Typical New York Incompetence* does not necessarily apply in every single transit-related situation.
Besides, as I noted in a different thread yesterday, Airtrain is an absolute must for persons using the vast long-term parking lot at JFK (as well as the A train station), given the utterly unacceptable state of the filthy, stinking, obscenely overcrowded and glacially slow Port Authority shuttle buses, whose evil drivers are living proof that the mentally retarded can get high-paying jobs.**
More I think of it, had the timing been slightly different, Airtrain might not exist at all. It's entirely possible that the Port Authority would have cancelled the project in response to the falloff in air traffic after September 11th had not the project already been well into the construction phase and beyond the point of no return. Note that Delta Air Lines cancelled its JFK terminal project after the attacks, no construction having begun by then, while American Airlines was, like the PA with Airtrain, reluctantly obliged to continue building its new terminal because construction was already well undeway.
Let's also not forget that if air travel does not recover, Airtrain ridership might end up way below projections, just as the American JFK terminal, once completed, may be largely passenger-less.
* = I guess that's another one of my favorite terms, along with suit-covered anuses, cows-at-the-slaughterhouse-chute half moons, and Upper West Side limousine liberals.
** = in addition to President of the United States, of course.
Though the airtrain is not perfect, it IS being built. Quickly I might add! And that is a MAJOR big deal in New York, where it seems like they drag their asses forever on anything that even smells like transit expansion.
:-) Andrew
I'll never understand some of the anti-AirTrain sentiment -- especially on this board. It seems that people would choose a certain solution just for the purpose of seeing an abandoned line reactivated.
People who advocate the "1 seat ride from Manhattan" miss the mark.
Only about 20% of NYC's population lives in Manhattan -- even fewer live within walking distance of Penn Station or whatever other terminal one might choose. It's a two seat ride for everyone else. Most luggage laden visitors aren't going to take mass transit upon arrival -- especially if it's going to leave them a mile from their hotel.
Second, the two-seat ride isn't a big deal. Given the logistics of JFK, the idea of having a 1000'+ long train make stops at 9 terminals just isn't feasible. You would have to have a central rail terminal at JFK and a circulation system anyway.
What the Airtrain does is extend the circulation system off airport to meet up with the nearest transfer stations. To me, this is near genius thinking. Now people who live anywhere within walking distance of the A, E, J or LIRR will have a two seat ride with modern ADA compliant transfers.
Further, I don't understand the "Airtrain doesn't benefit city people" argument. Well more than 50% of the city's population live in Queens and Brooklyn. Could somebody explain how these folks benefit from a "Super Express" from Penn to JFK?
Finally, it's just a matter of practicality. The Airtrain is going to be completed and running long before anyone would have even put a shovel in the ground for a direct line from Manhattan. The city council would still be bickering over which political favors would have to be granted in order to re-activate the Rockaway branch. In this case, the PA simply got the job done.
I don't expect much of what I say here to change any minds, and we're close enough to this whole thing becoming a reality that we should probably post our predictions for daily ridership and agree to meet in 3 years to see who came closest.
CG
I agree. I can't see subway lines such as the A or E making all the stops in JFK that the airtrain makes. And the subway rolling stock has no provisions for luggage whatsoever.
:-) Andrew
Yet I always people lugging huge pagakages/luggage on the subway all the time. It's annoying to me!
Hasn't anyone, whether it be C/R or T/O, taken action to tell people that the stuff they bring is to big to go around or what?
I once got on the 5 on a quite crowded car during rush hour. Some guy had a bicycle there, taking up 3 or 4 seats with it. I bumped into the bike as I tried to take one of the empty seats. The guy laid into me right away. Somehow it was more satisfying to just shut up and ignore his blustering rather than saying "you're not supposed to have a bike on the train during rush hour."
C/R would not have been able to get from his post to where we were.
I see. Was it traverse cab or not?
"Hasn't anyone, whether it be C/R or T/O, taken action to tell people that the stuff they bring is to big to go around or what"
It's not their job to do that. It's their job to help people who need to travel by subway carrying packages to be safe and secure in their travels, and to be helpful in any way they can. The R142, 143 and R160 subway cars are designed to accommodate this better (by virtue of larger door openings, room for wheelchairs etc.)
I'm glad that people can use the subway to take parcels. If not, they'd have to drive.
I'm sorry you're annoyed, but maybe what's helpful here is your being a little more understanding about your fellow riders. Your post didn't sound very mature...
How so? What is wrong with using the subways and not wanting to navigate big packages to do so!! The subways aren't a delivery service, but I do concur on your supporting people who are disabled or who have little kids.
People who carry parcels onto the train should get them out of the way of the doors etc., and be considerate about where they put them but but there is no prohibition on carrying parcels per se.
"What is wrong with using the subways and not wanting to navigate big packages to do so!! "
Give me a concrete example of what you find objectionable.
That's what I meant in the first place. Guess I should've mentioned it.
A good example is having too many grocery bags all over the place. I often see them on the bus, but I've seen them on the subway as well. If not big packages, but big in #'s.
People shouldn't be rude about it.
I agree. I can't see subway lines such as the A or E making all the stops in JFK that the airtrain makes.
For any particular reason? The AirTrain rolling stock is the same dimensions as the 60-foot subway rolling stock which already runs on the A and E.
And the subway rolling stock has no provisions for luggage whatsoever.
So what? You get off the plane and spend the $5 to take the luxurious AirTrain with its luggage provisions. Then you get to Howard Beach or Jamaica. Now what? You have to transfer with your luggage to a subway or LIRR train that has no luggage provisions. How is that any better for the passenger than having the subway, even without luggage provisions, pick him up directly at the terminal?
Ideally, a new subway car would be designed with low-key provisions for luggage that don't get much in the way of commuter traffic. (Think of the rolling stock on London's Picadilly line, which directly serves Heathrow.) But even without that, an R-38 directly at the airport is a lot more convenient than a luggage-friendly train followed by a transfer to an R-38 at Howard Beach.
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First is train length. The airtrain will make 6 stops over 1.8 miles within JFK. That would be the equivalent of having the A train stop 6 times within 36 blocks. Worse yet, given that the train is making a circle you're going to have some serious gap issues.
Second is incompatibility -- not in a physical sense, but in terms of what an airport needs. The Airtrain at JFK is first and foremost a means of circulating people within the airport facility. This means very high frequency (60 or 90 second headways) and not as much concern about capacity (Atlanta does just fine with 4 car trains and it's one of the two busiest airports in the US). A set of 10 R-32's taking a lap around the airport every 10 minutes just doesn't cut it.
Sure you could intersperse an outside train with the circulation system -- but why bother. Just build a single connection station -- like at most other airports. Or, as airtrain has done bring the circulator to an existing connection station.
CG
Sorry about that last post -- I fell into HTML hell.
"I agree. I can't see subway lines such as the A or E making all the stops in JFK that the airtrain makes"
"For any particular reason? The AirTrain rolling stock is the same dimensions as the 60-foot subway rolling stock which already runs on the A and E"
First is train length. The airtrain will make 6 stops over 1.8 miles within JFK. That would be the equivalent of having the A train stop 6 times within 36 blocks. Worse yet, given that the train is making a circle you're going to have some serious gap issues.
Second is incompatibility -- not in a physical sense, but in terms of what an airport needs. The Airtrain at JFK is first and foremost a means of circulating people within the airport facility. This means very high frequency (60 or 90 second headways) and not as much concern about capacity (Atlanta does just fine with 4 car trains and it's one of the two busiest airports in the US). A set of 10 R-32's taking a lap around the airport every 10 minutes just doesn't cut it.
Sure you could intersperse an outside train with the circulation system -- but why bother. Just build a single connection station -- like at most other airports. Or, as airtrain has done bring the circulator to an existing connection station.
CG
First is train length. The airtrain will make 6 stops over 1.8 miles within JFK. That would be the equivalent of having the A train stop 6 times within 36 blocks.
And why couldn't the A train stop 6 times within 36 blocks? It's not like it would be delaying passengers trying to get further down the line; I'm assuming JFK would be the end of the line.
Worse yet, given that the train is making a circle you're going to have some serious gap issues.
I'm not sure what you mean here.
Second is incompatibility -- not in a physical sense, but in terms of what an airport needs. The Airtrain at JFK is first and foremost a means of circulating people within the airport facility. This means very high frequency (60 or 90 second headways) and not as much concern about capacity (Atlanta does just fine with 4 car trains and it's one of the two busiest airports in the US). A set of 10 R-32's taking a lap around the airport every 10 minutes just doesn't cut it.
Of course not. Run trains on whatever short headway you need. Most of them will be airport-only trains (which could be designed with only airport passengers in mind -- lots of luggage space, for instance). Occasionally a subway train will come along. The hardest part would be dealing with fare collection on the subway but not on the circulator, but I'm sure that's not an intractable problem. (I can think of two potential solutions off the top of my head.)
As for the length of the train, no, a full 600-foot train isn't needed -- but a full 600-foot train isn't needed approaching the ends of most other subway lines, either. Just as we don't ask subway passengers going to the end of the line to get off most of the way there and get onto a shorter train, we similarly shouldn't ask subway passengers going to the airport to get off most of the way there and get onto a shorter train. If necessary, pull a South Ferry and have only some cars platform.
Sure you could intersperse an outside train with the circulation system -- but why bother. Just build a single connection station -- like at most other airports. Or, as airtrain has done bring the circulator to an existing connection station.
Why bother? Because it's a heck of an inconvenience to shlep luggage through a transfer, especially one that isn't cross-transfer. (As an aside, do you have any idea why the Howard Beach isn't going to be cross-transfer? The AirTrain could ramp down and stop on a middle track with the subway across either platform.)
Newark aside, can you name a single airport that charges a $5 fare -- or any fare at all -- for a ride on the circulator to the connection station?
"And why couldn't the A train stop 6 times within 36 blocks? It's not like it would be delaying passengers trying to get further down the line; I'm assuming JFK would be the end of the line."
I've always assumed that an NYCT JFK train would go once around the loop and back up the line to Manhattan a la South Ferry, so I agree that passenger delay isn't the issue here -- other than some slight nuisance to a passenger who boards at the first terminal or gets off at the last.
What I was (ineffectively) trying to get at was this. 1.8 Miles is 9504 feet -- arranged in a circle with some apparently tight turns (just from looking at the diagrams -- I don't have any engineering specifics, nor the qualifications to understand them). There are 6 stations -- if you put a 10 car 600 foot platform in each, then 3600 of the 9504 feet of track will be platform. Since that's almost 38% of the track being platformed and most of the track on a curve to begin with, I suspect you're going to have stations with some huge gaps between the platform and the train.
The typical circulation train would be much shorter. So you'd have these massive 600 foot platforms being used by mainly by 240 foot trains and by the occasional (every 15 minutes?) mostly empty 600 foot train. Just seems like a waste.
You could probably just build short platforms, but if you went this route I'd suggest that rather than pulling a South Ferry, it would probably be better to run shorter trains on the Airport line. The last thing you need is an out-of-towner with a big bag needing to walk up 6 or 7 cars. South Ferry is/was bad enough.
"Why bother? Because it's a heck of an inconvenience to shlep luggage through a transfer, especially one that isn't cross-transfer. (As an aside, do you have any idea why the Howard Beach isn't going to be cross-transfer? The AirTrain could ramp down and stop on a middle track with the subway across either platform.) "
I'd expect that anyone using mass transit to the airport wouldn't have much of an issue with shlepping their luggage through an ADA transfer with modern escalators and elevators -- especially after they had to get their bags up or down a few flights of stairs just to get into the subway.
The multitude of connections at Jamaica makes the cross platform tranfer infeasible. At Howard Beach, I suspect that the reason is the related to the funding of AirTrain. Since the funding came from Airport surcharges, I believe it can only be used for "on-airport" purposes. They get around this at Jamaica by having the station next door on what I believe is now PA owned property. If they had to build a cross-platform transfer, then part of the station would be on NYCT owned land and thus off-airport. This is only my speculation, though.
"Newark aside, can you name a single airport that charges a $5 fare -- or any fare at all -- for a ride on the circulator to the connection station? "
There aren't any that I know of, but at the same time how many other cities have provided such unfathomably poor public transportation to their airports that the airport itself felt the need to go out and build a connection to the city?
CG
("Newark aside, can you name a single airport that charges a $5 fare -- or any fare at all -- for a ride on the circulator to the
connection station? ")
I see the point of the "connector to many transfers" argument, but I cannot abide a $5.00 fare. It makes no sense. Most of the riders will be transferees moving around the airport (free), those going to the parking lot (free), and airport and related employees (not going to pay $5.00, will presumably get discounts). The decision seems to be go gouge the transit riders just to gouge them. Remember, these riders are already paying a passenger facility charge for this thing, and the airports make profits that are spent elsewhere.
I've always assumed that an NYCT JFK train would go once around the loop and back up the line to Manhattan a la South Ferry, so I agree that passenger delay isn't the issue here -- other than some slight nuisance to a passenger who boards at the first terminal or gets off at the last.
That nuisance will always exist on a one-way loop line. If it's any consolation, between arrival and departure, the typical passenger will traverse the entire loop exactly once.
What I was (ineffectively) trying to get at was this. 1.8 Miles is 9504 feet -- arranged in a circle with some apparently tight turns (just from looking at the diagrams -- I don't have any engineering specifics, nor the qualifications to understand them). There are 6 stations -- if you put a 10 car 600 foot platform in each, then 3600 of the 9504 feet of track will be platform. Since that's almost 38% of the track being platformed and most of the track on a curve to begin with, I suspect you're going to have stations with some huge gaps between the platform and the train.
Okay, I see. Thanks for the clarification -- I thought you were trying to say something about gaps in service, but I couldn't imagine what. I'll comment on this below.
The typical circulation train would be much shorter. So you'd have these massive 600 foot platforms being used by mainly by 240 foot trains and by the occasional (every 15 minutes?) mostly empty 600 foot train. Just seems like a waste.
And to me it seems like a waste to have a gaudy new station suspended above the existing Howard Beach subway station, where everybody will have to get off and go downstairs to continue their journeys. If only the money spent on that station had instead been spent on a direct connection to the subway tracks!
You could probably just build short platforms, but if you went this route I'd suggest that rather than pulling a South Ferry, it would probably be better to run shorter trains on the Airport line. The last thing you need is an out-of-towner with a big bag needing to walk up 6 or 7 cars. South Ferry is/was bad enough.
Short trains introduce their own problems -- in particular, people waiting on 600-foot platforms will miss the train if they're waiting in the wrong place. At 20-minute headways, that's costly. A passenger on a long train who misses his stop because the platform is short can move forward, get off at the next stop, and either walk back or wait a minute or two for the airport circulator to take him back around the loop. Non-airport passengers wouldn't be affected at all.
Don't assume that the front section of the train would open. If new cars are ordered for this service, they could be rigged to open the doors in the middle cars. Alternatively, have the train stop twice at each station, first for the front half and then for the back half.
But I just came up with a better idea. (Really, it occurred to me ten minutes ago.) Rather than having one short platform at each terminal, have one long (600-foot) platform straddling pairs of terminals. Full-length subway trains would stop once at each platform; short circulator trains would stop twice.
I'd expect that anyone using mass transit to the airport wouldn't have much of an issue with shlepping their luggage through an ADA transfer with modern escalators and elevators -- especially after they had to get their bags up or down a few flights of stairs just to get into the subway.
Could someone please explain to me where this notion that an ADA-compliant transfer is 100% painless came from? Have you ever exited the ADA-compliant 63/Lex station, with or without luggage? There are two choices: either go up a whole bunch of escalators, or wait in line for the single small elevator and pray that you'll fit in the first load since it takes a long time to go up and come back down. A daresay the only people who prefer that arrangement to the standard non-ADA one-flight-down local station are those who can't climb stairs at all.
And 63/Lex is an intermediate station on the line where most exiting passengers don't have luggage. Imagine Howard Beach. Everybody gets off the AirTrain, and they're all going to the same place, and most of them have luggage (which consumes large quantities of elevator space). How many ups and downs of the elevator do you think it will take to get the entire trainload downstairs? Most will grudgingly drag their luggage down the escalator instead of waiting, especially if a train's approaching (remember, 20-minute headways).
Without luggage, I don't think a cross-platform transfer is a tremendously big deal. Still, look at all the debates here over how the Brooklyn BMT services should be arranged when the Manhattan Bridge is fully reopened -- do you say that it doesn't matter at all, since everything's a cross-platform transfer away at DeKalb or Pacific in any case? And that's a cross-platform transfer for people mostly without luggage!
The multitude of connections at Jamaica makes the cross platform tranfer infeasible. At Howard Beach, I suspect that the reason is the related to the funding of AirTrain. Since the funding came from Airport surcharges, I believe it can only be used for "on-airport" purposes. They get around this at Jamaica by having the station next door on what I believe is now PA owned property. If they had to build a cross-platform transfer, then part of the station would be on NYCT owned land and thus off-airport. This is only my speculation, though.
Perhaps, but why couldn't the AirTrain track and the section of platform adjacent to it be owned by the PA? For that matter, why couldn't the entire Howard Beach station be transferred to the PA? There's no law that a general-purpose subway line can't pass through airport property, is there?
There aren't any that I know of, but at the same time how many other cities have provided such unfathomably poor public transportation to their airports that the airport itself felt the need to go out and build a connection to the city?
Was the TA given a chance? I thought the PA wouldn't allow the TA to run the subway into the airport.
The airport is already in the city. The airport-run AirTrain will be free to passengers going to the long-term parking lot but will charge a $5 (or so) fare to passengers going to the subway station across the fence. Would you care to justify that pricing scheme?
"Was the TA given a chance? I thought the PA wouldn't allow the TA to run the subway into the airport."
The MTA had (still has?) a one-track ROW from Hooward Beach's A subway into the airport. MTA declined to use it due to their reluctance to create yet another 2-mile branch of A train coming off the Rockaway line. The PA did not stand in the way of this.
Oh, I forgot. There was also the issue of getting the subway train efficiently to all the terminals.
So for both reasons, MTA declined.
Six stops in 36 blocks wouldn't be anything new for the B Division:
BMT -- Broadway N/R
14th St.
23rd St.
28th St.
34th St.
42nd St.
49th St.
Six stops in 35 blocks. Admitiedly, a couple of the JFK stops would be about as far apart as Cortleyou and Beverley are on the Brighton line, but that also could be handled without a major crisis.
As far as the headways go, alternating an A train that would use the existing IND trackages with loop trains that would only travel within the Airtrain area, and require transfers to the other subway lines at Howard Beach and Jamaica, wouldn't be all that different than the situation today with the Rockaway Park shuttle (the main change would be the C train would now have to cover the Lefferts route, since there wouldn't be enough A trains to handle three different southern terminals).
technically 4 southern terminals if you count the .
technically 4 southern terminals if you count the diamond A
But Airtrain also connects to the LIRR. The LIRR actually has some provisions for luggage. The overhead racks aren't wonderful. In fact they seem a tad dangerous. But that's more than the subway has.
:-) Andrew
But the LIRR is of no use to most NYC residents. It makes three stops in Brooklyn, one stop in Manhattan, and no stops in the Bronx. Most non-Queens residents will have to use the subway in any case, whether straight from Howard Beach or Jamaica or from wherever they get off the LIRR. Thus the baggage handling issue presents itself again.
If a new order of subway cars had non-intrusive provisions for luggage, then the problem would go away for everyone who lives along the A line between Howard Beach and Inwood.
The AirTrain routing is great for Queens and Long Island residents -- those same Queens and Long Island residents who are quite likely to have cars and are quite likely to use them to get to the airport no matter what their other options are. Shouldn't we be gearing our transit lines most toward the people who have no other good options?
The AirTrain routing is great for Queens and Long Island residents -- those same Queens and Long Island residents who are quite likely to have cars and are quite likely to use them to get to the airport no matter what their other options are. Shouldn't we be gearing our transit lines most toward the people who have no other good options?
Let's not confuse Queens with Long Island. The majority of Queens is nothing like Nassau and Suffolk. In the outer areas of Eastern Queens, sure we have cars. So do those in southern Brooklyn and the northern Bronx. But in western Queens not so many people have cars.
:-) Andrew
The majority of Queens households overall have cars. Of course, it varies from neighborhood to neighborhood. In contrast, the majority of Bronx households do not have cars (again, varying from neighborhood to neighborhood). (I don't remember offhand where Brooklyn falls; I think it has a carless majority, but not by much. I don't need to mention Staten Island.) Check the census info for details.
But I think most regular LIRR riders who live in Queens have cars, while most regular subway-only riders (i.e., not including those who transfer to the subway from LIRR or from buses) don't. (Does that sound reasonable to you?) By and large, the people who could take the LIRR straight home could drive to the airport instead -- and will drive to the airport instead, Van Wyck notwithstanding.
Given the location of the LIRR stations in Queens, I wouldn't expect much travel from, say, Forest Hills LIRR to JFK. Most of those folks will likely take the E train instead.
As a Long Islander who uses JFK for about 6 round-trips a year, I expect to use the LIRR/AirTrain connection every time. It will take about 15 minutes extra, but the ease will be worth it. Factor in the cost of long-term (or short-term) parking versus the AirTrain and it makes more sense.
For Queens residents -- even if you don't want to take the subway, how many people will choose to be dropped off at Jamaica (or Howard Beach) rather than brave the Van Wyck to the Airport?
CG
As a Long Islander who uses JFK for about 6 round-trips a year, I expect to use the LIRR/AirTrain connection every time. It will take about 15 minutes extra, but the ease will be worth it. Factor in the cost of long-term (or short-term) parking versus the AirTrain and it makes more sense.
AirTrain will be a huge benefit for people using JFK's long-term parking. As I noted elsewhere, the existing PA shuttle buses are beyond horrible.
So why is the fare being charged specifically to the people who aren't using long-term parking?
Presumably there will be some recovery of costs in the fees paid for long-term parking.
We'll see if parking fees go up when the line opens.
The AirTrain web site implies that the line is fully funded without the help of a fare. If that's the case, should there really be a fare at all?
IMO, this is just a (gold-plated, but what other options are there?) piece of the basic NYC transit infrastructure. The fare should be no more than $1.50, with free transfers to and from subways and buses. Fare revenue would be split using similar formulas to the ones used for the DOT/private bus lines.
"IMO, this is just a (gold-plated, but what other options are there?) piece of the basic NYC transit infrastructure. The fare should be no more than $1.50, with free transfers to and from subways and buses. Fare revenue would be split using similar formulas to the ones used for the DOT/private bus lines. "
You may very well see that or something similar. NYC is far better than NJ when it comes to public outcry. NJ's response to the very high fare on their AirTrain was pathetic.
IMO, this is just a (gold-plated, but what other options are there?) piece of the basic NYC transit infrastructure. The fare should be no more than $1.50, with free transfers to and from subways and buses. Fare revenue would be split using similar formulas to the ones used for the DOT/private bus lines.
That's not a bad idea in theory, but it probably couldn't be implemented due to the use of special federal funding for AirTrain.
What special federal funding? The AirTrain website claims that everything's being paid for by the PFC and PA funds.
There is no "special federal funding" - it's the PFC transfer fees paid by airline customers.
I think we discussed this a while ago. If I recall, wasn't it that the funding for AirTrain comes out of passenger fees, so creating free transfers to NYCT could be considered creating a forbidden mix of funding? Someone pays for the NYCT fare and then rides AirTrain for free.
Still, I think having no free transfer, but setting the AirTrain fare the same as that for NYCT, would be more acceptable than the current proposed situation. Last I heard, some AirTrain fares would only be as little as $3.
The Port Authority will charge as much as it can get away with, and really, who is to blame them? It is their system, and they got something done around here.
MATT-2AV
If ridership fails to meet expectations, the fare can be lowered.
Fares are the easiest aspect of a transit system to tweak.
Seriously. That's so true. Why root against AirTrain because the fare is (or rumored to be) so high? as you said, its the easiest thing to change.
MATT-2AV
Because the fare is in the hands of the Port Authority, and some of us are skeptical that the Port Authority will reduce or eliminate the fare even if it would make sense to do so.
Because it's cheaper for three or four people to get together and hail a cab to Howard Beach (or, better yet, Rockaway Boulevard, with twice the service) than to pay $5 each for the train. When the free shuttle bus is eliminated, I anticipate unofficial taxi stands forming at the Howard Beach and Rockaway Boulevard subway stations.
Because even the private bus companies in Queens figured out how to work their operations into the TA's fare structure; surely the mighty Port Authority could do the same if it had the desire.
(It's cheaper for three or four people to get together and hail a cab to Howard Beach (or, better yet, Rockaway Boulevard, with twice the service) than to pay $5 each for the train.)
Cab to train is an under-utilized option, especially for those going to Manhattan. I figured out the best way to get from LaGuardia to Manhattan in the morning is to take a cab to the N at Ditmars -- no highways, no traffic jams. Perhaps the PA should have special cab stands for those looking for such trips.
Cab to train is an under-utilized option, especially for those going to Manhattan. I figured out the best way to get from LaGuardia to Manhattan in the morning is to take a cab to the N at Ditmars -- no highways, no traffic jams. Perhaps the PA should have special cab stands for those looking for such trips.
I believe that taxis which do short trips at the airport can return to the head of the taxi lines. That may not encompass trips as far as Ditmars, however.
"I believe that taxis which do short trips at the airport can return to the head of the taxi lines. That may not encompass trips as far as Ditmars, however. "
Ditmars will get you a pass to cut the line. LIRR Jamaica will also get you a pass.
CG
"Because it's cheaper for three or four people to get together and hail a cab to Howard Beach (or, better yet, Rockaway Boulevard, with twice the service) than to pay $5 each for the train. When the free shuttle bus is eliminated, I anticipate unofficial taxi stands forming at the Howard Beach and Rockaway Boulevard subway stations. "
That's a nice fantasy Dave. But three or four people with luggage won't cram themselves into one cab (and even without the luggage people aren't that cooperative in New York). It won't happen. If jitney vans did start a service like that, the PA will find another revenue source: summonses given to unlicensed cabs that PA police will then chase off PA property.
What are you talking about? Three or four people can comfortably fit in a standard New York City cab, with luggage in the trunk. Don't forget the front seat. Besides, the fare would be under $10, so it would be a worthwhile (money-saving and probably time-saving) option even for two people. And, unlike on AirTrain, all passengers will have guaranteed seats. They'll have to transfer, but they have to transfer in any case.
People will ride AirTrain to Jamaica, but Jamaica isn't the basic free connection to the subway that Howard Beach is now.
Time will tell. I am quite confident that if pricing truly is an issue the PA will respond appropriately.
If I recall, wasn't it that the funding for AirTrain comes out of passenger fees, so creating free transfers to NYCT could be considered creating a forbidden mix of funding? Someone pays for the NYCT fare and then rides AirTrain for free.
I believe you're correct.
excuse, me the Airtrain track thingie can't support the weight of NYCTA rolling stock. Though I've heard (on subtalk) chicago el equipment just will make it without hearing concrete cracking. Then you have to play in ATC and etc.
Time to dust off those old R-39 designs for the Myrtle el. :-)
The contractor's rep at the ERA tour claimed that the guideways can carry the weight. The problems are the curves and grades, not the weight of the cars.
Impossible. AirTrain cars are the same dimensions as 60-foot B Division cars.
Luggage racks on transit - Cleveland. The red line (usually referred to as the "most under used rapid transit line in the world" has luggage racks on cars for years - since it serves Cleveland-Hopkins Airport.
Luggage racks on transit - not - Baltimore. When the MTA was building the BWI extension, a suggestion was made to have the 18 additional cars equipped with luggage racks next to the center section, where the blank window is. Believe it or not, the idea had merit - until AdTranz refused to modify the 18 cars without a large additional payment. So, no luggage racks. The BWI branch runs right into the terminal, so it gets a good number of passengers with luggage, which gets put either on seats, or on the floor where people trip over it. Finally, some bright bulb at Wiliam Donald Schaefer Tower figured out that luggage racks would be a good thing, so we may get some cars with them, or possibly the whole fleet - the seats that would be removed are the ones that get little use (outside of rush hours). We shall see.
The BWI branch runs right into the terminal
Literally (crunch!)
Please, no more BWI Bang-bangs.. There's now two new bumpers that won't lift the car up, two magnetic trips (the cars always had the feature, but it was never used- until now) that are speed set and a mandatory dead stop before entering the terminal trackage.
2 operators and a high level manager got fired, transferred and exiled. Operator 1 was sacked, operator 2 is now in a non-operating job title and the high level manager is now a trainmaster on MARC's Brunswick/Frederick line - and has to deal with the "no passenger train" railroad.
It seems that I was out of town for this latest round of AirTrain sentiment.
If you check the archives under my handle, there was a very large thread that I started entitled (in part) "In Defense of AirTrain..."
I honestly can't go through this argument the umpteenth time, but if you haven't noticed, AirTrain objectors can never produce one single valid, technical reason of substance to defend their position.
I believe that most of the objection comes from the railfan nostalgia heart. If the AirTrain cars just had a railfan window, you would notice much less objection around here. It kind of gives you a sense where that objection is coming from.
Instead, superior rolling stock and a completely different basis of design are irrelevant to these folk. AirTrain is the biggest rail rapid-transit project around here to be completed in years. Instead of championing its completion and encouraging ridership, the pessimists would rather nay-say AirTrain, for it won't be running R-32s.
MATT-2AV
Actually, I don't think the foamer glass gets any better than it does on AirTrain. Anyone SEEN one yet? Even Salaam would approve. :)
You know, there's no rational reason as to why, but part of me will find it a tad ironic when I read posts from dear old Salaam foaming about the pictures he snapped out of an AirTrain railfan window.
I made the very unwarranted assumption that there wouldn't be one, as the MTA is really moving away from the non-transverse cab design.
MATT-2AV
AH! I see where the confusion occurred. AirTrain is the PORT AUTHORITY, not the TRANSIT authority. Big difference. The Port Authority didn't walk away from the table when the brains were being handed out. :)
Air Train is 100% railfan window - the operator is on a circuit board in those things, so nothing but foamer glass and a free drip pan under it.
Absolutely correct.
No operator. NO cab.
BTW, there are actually manual controls in each car, but they are locked away in normal revenue operation.
Saw a test train this morning while at JFK -- it was a single car. Looked kinda short. Anyone know what length trains they're planning on running?
CG
Each car is a little less (i.e. a foot or two less) than 60 feet in length. Most trains will be one or two cars in the beginning, although the equipment is designed for up to 4 cars per train. All cars have couplers fore and aft. No married pairs.
BTW, the platforms are only long enough for 4 60-foot cars.
Jersey Mike was open and forthright in a recent post about the importance of railfan windows."
He said, "I hate MTA," because they are getting rid of railfan windows.
We can save a lot of money by shutting down all subway operations, scrapping all subway cars and recycling their steel and electronics, and saving the front windows from all of them. Each holder of a Metrocard can be given his/her very own Railfan Window to carry and cherish, and take on the bus with them.
kinda sums it up... sigh...
MATT-2AV
If the AirTrain cars just had a railfan window
They do, and it's bigger and better than anything on any subway car. Try another argument.
The AirTrain has a number of ways in which it could have been made better. For one, I believe that it should have been something incorporated into the NYCT system. It should have been done much better, and here's how:
Everyone is bring up this pointless matter of luggage racks. That's why AirTrain is going to cost so much money. And, AirTrain expects you to pay ANOTHER fare to get where you want to go (subway or LIRR). All these concerns could have been eliminated by simply tying the AirTrain into the NYCT system at Howard Beach. Here's what that solves:
1. The whole 'luggage rack' thing. The old JFK express ran with it's own dedicated rolling stock. Similarly, A dedicated rollingstock could be run on NYCT lines. Put in whatever you want, be it luggage racks or cushioned seats or even expresso machines.
2. The AirTrain could be operated like the JFK express, with an extra fare collected on the train. It could run along the A line to Chambers st manhattan, making limited stops (Euclid, ENY, Hoyt-schermerhorn, Jay st). The TA could collect the revenue from stations, and the PA from the onboard train fare. Or maybe, the PA should be cut out entirely, and the TA should operate the train. (Charles G's assertion that 1000'+ trains of the TA couldn't run to JFK is strange. I've never seen a TA train of 1000' in the TA (aside from work trains). I've also noted that the G train runs 300' trains. I think that the 'AirTrain could also be operated as such.
Charles G is right, the AirTrain is better than nothing, and that's why you shouldn't root against it. Could it be better? Yup. But getting the TA involved could have made the AirTrain the next 2nd av subway. Let's just be happy that the PA built an improvement for New York City this time, and got the job done pretty quickly.
There is no longer sufficient capacity to run a JFK Express train on the "A" ROW.
I inquired about the possibility of running the JFK Express for the purpose of meeting AirTrain's cars at Howard Beach. The MTA pointed out that A service is now operating at a frequency on the express tracks which makes operating the JFK Express service impossible.
In addition, the MTA declined to use the one-track ROW it already had into the airport due to a variety of issues (see archives). Having made that decision, it would be pointless for the PA to run AirTrain vehicles onto the A line.
In addition, the MTA declined to use the one-track ROW it already had into the airport due to a variety of issues (see archives). Having made that decision, it would be pointless for the PA to run AirTrain vehicles onto the A line.
I'm sorry, I can't find that post or thread or whatever. I didn't even know that there was a one track ROW already into the airport. Can you at least sum up the reasons? Also, is there trackage on that ROW, or is it just at ROW that the TA owns?
I'm not saying that this had any chance of happening, I'm saying that this was the best course of action (The JFK train could have made all stops instead of skipping them)
"I'm sorry, I can't find that post or thread or whatever. I didn't even know that there was a one track ROW already into the airport. Can you at least sum up the reasons? Also, is there trackage on that ROW, or is it just at ROW that the TA owns?"
I would be happy to. The MTA had a one track ROW into JFK airport from the tracks at Howard Beach. I believe they owned this ROW; if I am wrong about that, then it could have been in the form of an easement, meaning, the agency had the right to run a train two miles into the terminal area. If they had used it, a switch would have been installed at Howard Beach allowing a train to diverge from the main Rockaway-bound track onto the new JFK track. This probably would have been, initially, at grade level, and could have risen on an elevated guideway or sunk into a culvert, assuming MTA didn't run into any airport utility lines along the way.
MTA declined to do so. One reason was that they weren't keen on putting yet another branch (branch number 4) on a line which is already multi-branched. That leads to schedule headaches and lower service frequency on the Rockaway leg past the airport.
Another reason was that, at the time this was under consideration, 75-foot cars were being placed into service on the A line, and were used on the JFK line, which would not have been able to negotiate their way around the airport's terminals.
Realize that this decision process happened prior to the PA's introduction of the original AirTrain concept. With the MTA taking a pass on it, the PA decided to introduce new technology to airport service.
Would the result be different with 60' cars running on the line (eg R143)? Sure. But the AirTrain plan made a lot of this obsolete anyway.
1) AirTrain, which visits the terminals, meets the subway anyway. Experience in Atlanta of terminal circulators meeting the subway show that this works very, very well (the southbound MARTA subway trains are full at the airport stops and feed a lot of people into the circulator). Other airports (Tampa) require you to transfer from your car, a bus, taxi etc. to a terminal/gate train, so this is not an issue.
2) With a high-speed, nonstop link to Jamaica Station opening next year, you have direct access to 95% of the LIRR, and three subway lines (E and J/Z at Archer/Sutphin, in addition to the A), making the JFK Express route unnecessary.
What is needed now is many more subway stations which are fully ADA compliant so that when you are travelling with suitcases, you can comfortably enter your subway station, go to either of the two AirTrain access stations, and get on your AirTrain vehicle.
Thanks for that.
I'm not saying AirTrain is bad. I just wish you didn't have to pay the hefty AirTrain fare on top of the subway fare. That's whay I suggested the consolidation.
I sympathize with you on the fare. It is, perhaps, the easiest element to change. However, the PA contracted with Bombardier to build and run AirTrain - meaning, presumably that there are revenue targets and conditions regarding costs, profits etc in that contract. I do not know precisely how that governs the fare.
That is certainly a legitimate objection. No engineering is ever completely optimized.
There really are two issues with regards to fare that you mention: 1)the separate fare, and 2) the "heftiness" of that fare.
From what I understand, the fare for AirTrain must remain separate -- a free transfer is, regrettably, pretty much out of the question. Peter Rosa provided quite a bit of information on the reasons why. In short, AirTrain is funded in part by airport taxes. If there were a free transfer, you would have someone riding AirTrain on the MTA's fare, and visa versa. According to Peter, this creates an unacceptable mix to the bureaucrats.
The second issues is the heftiness of the fare. This is the easiest thing to change about AirTrain. Last I heard, fares would start at $3.00. AirTrain belongs to the Port Authority. The Port Authority will charge as much as they can get away with, and really, who is to blame them? Its their system.
A free transfer would be ideal, not just to us here on this board, but to everyone who uses AirTrain. It creates a single system. The IRT, BMT, and IND were integrated into a single system. Of course, this is a different era. If we can't have a single system, then I would suggest that the AirTrain fare be set at the NYCT fare. In other words, you have to pay to transfer, but the transfer is one standard fare.
MATT-2AV
"The second issues is the heftiness of the fare. This is the easiest thing to change about AirTrain. Last I heard, fares would start at $3.00. AirTrain belongs to the Port Authority. The Port Authority will charge as much as they can get away with, and really, who is to blame them? Its their system. "
The point of my post was that, since Bombardier is under contract to run AirTrain for the PA, it may be that Bombardier management will adjust fares based on their contractual agreement with the PA and the revenues which are generated within the first couple of years of the contract. Again, I don't know what the contract actually says. Bombardier will be running the trains, providing maintenance, and are even required (I know this for a fact, courtesy of the PA) to remove any graffitti which shows up anywhere on AirTrain or its ROW within 24 hours.
(The point of my post was that, since Bombardier is under contract to run AirTrain for the PA, it may be that Bombardier management will adjust fares based on their contractual agreement with the PA and the revenues which are generated within the first couple of years of the contract.)
The fare will be free for just about everyone -- those moving around the aiport, those traveling from the parking lot, airport employees who will presumably get some sort of deal. You aren't going to make that up with people transferring from transit.
For years during and after the 1991 recession, profits from the NYC airports were used to keep the PATH fare low, until the Port Authority finally caved in and raised fares and tolls -- to below MTA levels. What would be a fair Airtrain fare for transit transfers? Equality with the PATH fare.
OK. Sounds good to me. Let's see what actually happens.
I talked to the Bombardier General Manager for the JFK AirTrain about this. The fare will be set by the PA, not Bombardier. The exact amount isn't set yet, but is expected to be between $2 and $5 and will be collected entering/exiting at Jamaica and at the end of the Howard Beach station that connects to the TA. Fare collection is the PA's responsibility, not Bombardier's.
Thank you for providing that information.
This seems to imply that Bombardier is being paid a fixed fee for running the system, and whether or not the PA runs it at a surplus or deficit is up to the PA's pricing scheme.
From what I understand, the fare for AirTrain must remain separate -- a free transfer is, regrettably, pretty much out of the question. Peter Rosa provided quite a bit of information on the reasons why. In short, AirTrain is funded in part by airport taxes. If there were a free transfer, you would have someone riding AirTrain on the MTA's fare, and visa versa. According to Peter, this creates an unacceptable mix to the bureaucrats.
I don't follow.
As planned, only passengers entering or exiting the system at Howard Beach or Jamaica will pay the fare. Passengers remaining on airport grounds, including the parking lots, will not pay a fare. So obviously the PA is under no obligation to charge a fare to all passengers.
The only reason the PA is removing a free service and replacing it with one that will cost between $2 and $5 to ride is that the PA feels like removing a free service and replacing it with one that will cost between $2 and $5 to ride.
"The only reason the PA is removing a free service and replacing it with one that will cost between $2 and $5 to ride is that the PA feels like removing a free service and replacing it with one that will cost between $2 and $5 to ride. "
No, the reason is that the PA wants AirTrain passengers to help defray the cost that Bombardier charges the PA to run the system.
You claimed that AirTrain couldn't have a free transfer to the subway because the PA was legally obligated to charge a fare to all its passengers. That isn't the case, since the PA isn't charging a fare to all its passengers.
>>> Passengers remaining on airport grounds, including the parking lots, will not pay a fare. <<<
Presumably, the PA will extract enough from parking fees to cover the cost of traveling from the terminals to the parking lots. They just do not anyone to get away from the airport altogether without paying something, and therefore there are fares for those taking the air train to a destination outside of the airport.
Tom
Reread the context. I was replying to a claim that the PA couldn't even consider offering a free transfer to the subway because then some passengers wouldn't directly pay an AirTrain fare, and that would upset the bureaucrats. That's obviously not the case, since some passengers already won't directly pay an AirTrain fare.
Subway fare + AirTrain fare is still a better deal that at EWR, access to which requires a NJTransit fare (or an even higher Amtrak fare).
"What is needed now is many more subway stations which are fully ADA compliant so that when you are travelling with suitcases, you can comfortably enter your subway station, go to either of the two AirTrain access stations, and get on your AirTrain vehicle. "
It sounds like the ADA is being bastardized into the ALA -- Americans with Luggage Act.
CG
"It sounds like the ADA is being bastardized into the ALA -- Americans with Luggage Act."
ADA is valuable to a lot more people than just the wheelchair users. A proud bastard it should be!
Ron means that providing essnetial ADA upgrades to NYCT stations would incidentally benefit commuters carying luggage.
MATT-2AV
Ron pretty much summed up the arguments in favor of AirTrain.
Also, bear in mind that the MTA had excessive scheduling difficulty in running the JFK Train to Plane back in the day, which I hear was one of the reasons why it was discontinued.
If AirTrain were to take the place of the old JFK Plane to Train, you would have the same scheduling difficulties. However, instead of turning trains down at Howard Beach (or was it at Aqueduct?), you have the added complexity of making stops at each and every terminal, and the looping back into the system.
AirTrain cars would have to be circulated through the MTA system, just as any other (A) train except for the JFK portion. If AirTrain doesn't require 600 ft. trains, then you have empty trains running through the JFK loop. If you shorten the AirTrain trains, then you have taken the place of a 600 ft. Rockaway (A) train with a shorter train.
Just some added thoughts,
MATT-2AV
The AirTrain was built using "passenger facility charge" money. Federal rules regarding use of that money say it has to be used on-airport only. Thus nobody else's trains are allowed to run on the track, and the trains aren't allowed to run on anybody else's track. Otherwise the Feds take the money back.
But the Airtrain guideway includes a provision (shades of the IND Second System) at Howard Beach for connecting to trackage on the Rockaway Beach Branch ROW. Someday someone may change the law or we may tell the feds to take their money and stuff it.
You are conflating several issues:
1) How to get to JFK?
Rockaway would have had a nice historical completeness, but would have been tied up in litigation as a less environmentally impacting alignment, Van Wyck, was available. Will Rockaway ever be used again? Not likely. It moves parallel to Manhattan, not towards it. See G train. People drive suburb to suburb. Those who need transit can be served by bus. The level of demand doesn't call for heavy rail.
2) How to get to Manhattan?
Until East Side Access, there is no space for AirTrains at NYP. With ESA, they can go to NYP (or GCT). The Rockaway option would have had them stop at Woodside until ESA. Just like they will stop at Jamaica until ESA. Separate issue.
3) Why do LIRR at all? Why not subway?
Because that is what is popular. London, Paris and Tokyo have all moved away from subways to one seat/minimal stop/yet more expensive dedicated services. And you can still take the A if that is what you want to do. Many employees will (a large segment for ridership). But then this is SubTalk, not RapidTransitTalk, so this site will be debating this one forever.
AirTrain JFK will be a solid success. Not a wild one. It'll be that in several years with 1-seat rides to Manhattan.
Because that is what is popular. London, Paris and Tokyo have all moved away from subways to one seat/minimal stop/yet more expensive dedicated services. And you can still take the A if that is what you want to do.
London is a bit different. The Piccadilly Line got to Heathrow long before that rip-off Heathrow Express (which incidentally is pretty useless as it only calls at Heathrow and Paddington). I believe the Piccadilly Line gets a good ridership whilst only the rich, the stupid and foreigners use the Heathrow Express. Who wants to end up in Paddington anyway, it being the furthest out of the London Terminals?
Indeed London is going the other way with City Airport - the DLR is being extended to serve it, a much better service than the lamentable North London Line, which doesn't even serve a London Terminal any more (RIP Broad Street).
Gatwick is of course the exception being miles out in the middle of nowhere most of the way to the South Coast. However, I understand commuter trains also stop there in addition to the Gatwick Express, so that makes it slightly less of a rip-off, though no more accessible for the majority of Britons.
Stansted is almost as bad as Gatwick (its one redeeming feature is being located North of London). however, they've laid on a really dumb route to Birmingham New Street to pretend that you don't need to go via London to get there. Unfortunately the route to Birmingham is ridiculously indirect (via Cambridge, Ely, March, Peterborough, Oakham, Melton Mowbray and Leicester London Road - very wiggly!!!) and very expensive.
The good news is flights from airports which are easily accessible and don't cost the earth to get to are getting cheaper :D Manchester, Liverpool Speke and finally Birmingham International :D yay, I'll be off to Paris CDG from BHX once I have a few days clear!!!
Also remeber that there are high leval platforms so pedestrian grade crossings are out of the questions. Better learn how to skip every other step on the stairs.
hey so long as it helps people who gives a damn about whatever else it could do.its gonna get people to Howard Beach for the subway as well as Jamaica for subway,bus and LIRR connections,what more do ya want? a free fare?
Your life must be pretty boring. Of all the things one can choose to root for or against, you choose AirTrain.
Are you rooting for or against anything still in our future? (where you could actually make a difference)
If rooting against AirTrain makes you happy, go ahead.
Port Authority controls the transportation at the airports - there is no way they would let NYC Transit "make money" by extending any lines into the airport terminals. Two billion dollars for 32 Air Train cars (that have seats but not enough lugguage space) and air train station inside the JFK International terminal that only speaks English (DUH!).
I'm told the Air Train to Newark cost more than the old PATH alternate and it doesn't get you there any faster.
"Port Authority controls the transportation at the airports - there is no way they would let NYC Transit "make money" by extending any lines into the airport terminals."
Incorrect. MTA had the right to extend the A train into JFK and declined to do so. We've been through this 100 times.
"I'm told the Air Train to Newark cost more than the old PATH alternate and it doesn't get you there any faster."
By someone who doesn't know anything about it, evidently. There isn't a "PATH alternate" - but there is a plan to extend PATH along the NEC ROW to the airport station. It's under study now.
The fastest way to Newark Airport is by Amtrak or NJT commuter rail. PATH, if extended, will be slower but might offer additional stations along the way and give riders who are not at Newark Penn a way into the airport.
The AirTrain railcar then takes you right to the terminal. Can't get any faster than that.
The fastest way to Newark Airport is by Amtrak or NJT commuter rail. PATH, if extended, will be slower but might offer additional stations along the way and give riders who are not at Newark Penn a way into the airport.
There is also a proposal to extend either the Newark City Subway or the HBLR (I don't remember which) to the airport.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Close but no cigar.
It's NERL, not NCS or HBLR. Come to think of it, you could consider NERL a new branch of NCS since they will share the old trolley station under Penn Station Newark.
PATH, if extended, will be slower but might offer additional stations along the way and give riders who are not at Newark Penn a way into the airport.
Two comments:
1) While I would just love to see a PATH station down the street from the Federal Courthouse and the Rodino Bldg., I'm not holding my breath. The distance from Penn Station to the Airport seems a little short for an intermediate stop.
2) Given the relatively short distances involved, unless there is an intermediate stop, I don't see the traveling time from Newark Penn to EWR via PATH being appreciably longer than via NJT. (If you are talking about traveling from Manhattan, PATH might be faster than NJT or Amtrak if you are traveling from downtown.
Is the thime Sq shuttle an automated train like they tried to have in the 60's ?
No, it's operated by a real live T/O.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also a C/R!
actually it is 2 T/Os
Must be the most boring job in the NYC Subway.
Times Square to Grand Central Shuttle is a 'two person OPTO.' Two train operators, no conductor. What may be boring to you is easy work for the T/Os. Primo seniority for day work like yard T/Os. One stop, no hassle, 'baffroom and MacBagget' on each end. Work the shift, any holdover is overtime. Boring run BUT no serious RTO clock delays. Whaddayah gotta do but fiddle with throttle/brake and function with the limited signals. Nuttin like being a Car Inspector assigned to troubles!!! Sure they make less...about four bucks an hours...BUT no sweat/no angina/no Big Bug looming over your head. CI PETER
I had 41 round trips. Yeah, baby!!!!!
Wasn't boring. You would be surprised how many attempts people try to assault you, both verbally and physically, when you leave them on the platform. Funny thing is that the train across the platform leaves in only 1 minute for the same destination. They want you to wait forever. I've got 40 more trips to go!
No, it has a T/O in the front and a conductor in the back. They don't move at the end of a run and their jobs are switched at every relay.
I don't know why the shuttle wasn't the first line to get R142/R142As.
The 42nd Street Shuttle has two three-car sets and one four-car sets. That's all that can fit on the platforms. The R-142 and R-142A come in five-car sets. While the sets could be shortened by removing a car or two, that would result in a very small number of B or B-prime units being left over, unusable (there would be nowhere near enough to make up the 11th car on the entire Flushing Line fleet, so don't go there...).
David
The 42nd St shuttle and Grand St shuttle are both OPTO line that have two T/O on each train.
Robert
True, but that neither adds to nor takes away from my point. Both the R-142/R-142A and the R-62A (which is on the 42nd Street Shuttle now) are capable of OPTO operation, with a Train Operator at each end or otherwise.
David
I remember the automated train which caused a lot of angry t/o that wanted an operator not an atomated train,in fact i bet that fire was no accident in 1964-65.
I was in fact told that by someone that retired but was not in the system back then for whatever that is worth. Funny how the TA never tried again even when the wood plats were gone.
Just remember that when suggesting OPTO Via TV camera.
I never said that the R142/A were not able to run OPTO This is one of the reason the TA got them this way.
Robert
>>> The 42nd St shuttle and Grand St shuttle are both OPTO line that have two T/O on each train. <<<
Are they operated OPTO, with the head end T/O opening the doors, and the tail end T/O riding along as a passenger? Or is the tail end T/O acting as a C/R, so it is really not OPTO.
Tom
With the Grand St Shuttle, the T/O on the front end operates both the trains and the door. The rear T/O just takes it easy.
Shuttle also doesn't offer as many opportunities to test all the capabilities of the R142. To really put it through its paces it needs to be on an extended line.
Not only that, but you can't run 5 car sets on a line which uses 3 car trains.
cut out a couple of cars. ohh wait you cant do that (you get on on the east end and get off at the west end).
Extend the platform at times square east!
More seriously, how about using trolleys on the Shuttle - build loops at either end etc...
Because the R142/R142A are configured in 5 car sets
Thanks
But according to the literature, they CAN be configured in 4, 5 or 6 car sets.
What about 3 cars, or can the south and north tracks really handle 4 car trains ?
Maybe when the R142 and R142A cars were first brought in, it was determined they were needed more for the regular lines instead of the shuttle.
Is this photo what Franklin used to look like? If so, what was the point of the platform on the far side? {Note: this is my first time posting a photo. If it doesn't work, go to http://www.transitalk.org/Main.html and scroll down to the rail photo of the SS train.
Even if it doesn't work, don't bother telling me how to post one. I'm only motivated to post photos once in a blue moon.
Yes, that is what Franklin Avenue looked like until the early 1980's if memory serves. At that point the wooden platform on the right was removed and the trackway remained exposed until the line was rebuilt in the 1990's.
Yes, that is Franklin. The platform on the right was the exit platform and the platform on the left the entrance platform.
I remember that station from the time I was little, marveling at trains in general and D types in particular. Standards were also fun to ride at that time. I only wished that the line was extended northwards to some parts of Brooklyn that needed service. Memories - they were fun.
Here is an idea, run the "V" train along the old Broadway-6 Av "K" line from Forest Hills to Metropolitan Av replacing the "M" line & use 8 car R32 cars & transfer the R46 cars from the "V" train to the "E" train & extend the "J" train to Bay Parkway to replace the "M" train.
The "M" train would be eliminated all together.
Look for some posts lower down. We are currently beating this topic to death.
I like your idea about the M - might work.
now I can live with that...J/Z and V service.Z trains can work it present routing[Jamaica to Broad st],J can go to 9th ave[and/or Bay Pky/95 st]and V trains can work the Metropolitan av-Forest Hills 6am to 11pm. That way,you would have your Middtown line,your downtown lines with enough service to keep everybody happy. the J would have to be tweeked enough to matain the current service levels during middays due to the lack of M trains between Essex and Broad sts,but it could and should work.....and express service on the V wouldn't matter because it would spend very little time on the Bway EL[5 stations,3 local stops]. This would be an service improvement!!! half of the present M train sets could run on the V,the others could go to the J/Z for midday/rush hours[if warrented].
If the V ran from Continental Avenue to Metropolian Avenue, the two terminals arent really that far off.
There was a post a while back about extending the M up to the Queens Blvd lines. Been thinking about this for a while now, raising another what if:
The M extended pass Metropolitan Ave used the NYRR tunnel and track, but turn Right and tunnel under GRAND AVENUE (less than a mile) Grand Avenue Station (V,G,R), then continue as the V into Manhattan. Instead of the V ending at 2nd Avenue, would use the Chrystie St section that joins Broadway-Lafayette to Essex St to return to the M line.
The new stations: Elliot Ave and 79th St (Grand Avenue)) on the connection bet Metropolitan and Grand Street
M & V as one line, it would Create a Tri-Borough loop. Could this have any benefits? or just connecting the two outway and benefits?
One a side note, Does the Circle line in London run in one direction, or both?
One a side note, Does the Circle line in London run in one direction, or both?
Both, allegedly ;-)
Clockwise is known as the Outer Rail and Anti-Clockwise is known as the Inner Rail. The stations have rather confusing signs like "Southbound" and "via Victoria".
Honetly the J currently is the slowest train around(At rush hour there's a 10-20 minute wait) so I don't think service would be sufficient enough for an extension to Bay Parkway. And if you can get enough cars for the J then you would have to cut Z service. Then again there should be enough eastern division trains to extend the J to Brooklyn without the disruption of any other subway service.
Isn't the M about the same tph as the J? It handles Bay Parkway now.
Not a good idea to cut a Queens Blvd and 53rd STreet tunnel service to 8 cars
Because the V is not packed during rush hours, I think you can get away with eight-car trains of 60-footers on the V.
I think so too. Give the G the extra cars.
N Broadway Line
If you're going to do all that, then leave the "M" alone, and then send the "V" to Canarsie.
wayne
You say "leave the "M" alone" but you seem to forget they are only two tracks serving the Bridge...
Anyway, to me, the M is really a useless line.. And since you are a believer of feeding 6 Avenue trains into the Broadway EL, I have an idea... Why don't you just send the V to meteropolitan Avenue.. It will fulfill your mission totally.. And it gets rid of a useless (M line) which no one uses after Broad Street into Brooklyn.
N Broadway
Just make the Z permenant express; J local, but rush hours extended to 9th Ave-Bklyn (cause a few do take the M into Brooklyn, but don't need it as far as Bay Pkwy), othertimes Broad Street; combine the M and V into one route
The M and V combine will make too much service for the broadway El.. and defeat the purpose of the V on Queens Blvd.
you also have to take in account the lack of capacity on the bridge. and how much bottleneck that will cause.
N Bwy
"The M and V combine will make too much service for the broadway El.. and defeat the purpose of the V on Queens Blvd…"
How so? Not suggesting they take all the cars of the M & V and use in one line, suggesting combining the route and balance out accoringly.
"…you also have to take in account the lack of capacity on the bridge. and how much bottleneck that will cause."
Again, would still be the 3 lines as currently. The M come from 6th Ave rather than Brooklyn, but could see potential bottlenecking at Essex Street with a new line switching over onto the J/Z from 6th Ave
The M handles a lot of through, one seat traffic from its outer north end stations (Knickerbocker through Metropolitan) to/from Lower Manhattan. These folks would now have to transfer at Essex Street and wait on a narrow platform. The smaller numbers who want to go uptown have a relatively easy transfer to the F at Essex St. And as another poster noted, not a good idea to cut 53d Street tunnel service to 8 cars.
So on the whole it's not a particularly good idea, IMHO.
I wouldn't call the transfer from the J/M/Z to the F relatively easy. Far from it. Already-crowded F trains and narrow stairways at Essex contribute to that. And lower-Manhattan-bound M riders would have other options to transfer besides Essex. Myrtle and Marcy are other places to transfer.
And as I noted before, the V is not packed to the gills during rush hours so I think you can safely run eight-car trains of 60-footers on the V. There would be a lot more people standing than on the eight-car R46 trains the V uses now, but I doubt it would be as bad as it is on the E.
You can always run the K to Bedford Park Blvd and 145 Street to replace the B train during rush hours and non-rush hours instead of merging it with the V. They used to have 480 foot trains on the Concourse rush hour local when it was the C. It would be a pretty ugly set of merges going into Broadway-Lafayette.
It just doesn't make sense to have the V 8 (75 foot) cars and to short-change the G line with only 4 (75 foot) cars.. Especially since the V is only running at only 50 percent compacity.
N bwy
Yes, but the G is going back to six cars on weekdays in September, thanks to the delivery of the R143s. Also I suggested eight-car trains of 60-footers on the V, in order for it to operate in the Eastern Division AND because it runs at only 50% capacity.
"Yes, but the G is going back to six cars on weekdays in September, thanks to the delivery of the R143s."
This is definitely GOOD NEWS... and I know G riders are looking forward to it!
"Also I suggested eight-car trains of 60-footers on the V, in order for it to operate in the Eastern Division AND because it runs at only 50% capacity."
I thought 8 cars (75-footers) on the V line were too much from jump street! At 50 percent capacity, it's just a was of public resources to run 8 75 footers.
N Broadway Line
the E should get 11 cars.. It has gotten more crowded since the switch.. And this is all hours of the day.
N bwy
Yes it should, and it's too bad the TA is specifying only five-car sets for the R160s. They should order several six-car sets of R160s to do 11 cars on the E and add a third crew member if necessary. They do OPTO on the G, where did all those conductors go?
I really think any "Chrystie St" service for the Eastern Division should only happen if it's a whole new service. The M should not be effected, and the Jamaica line shouldn't either (aside from maybe putting the J/Z on the express tracks on Broadway).
I still feel the "V" should run from Canarsie - Broadway Brooklyn Local - 6th Ave Local - Continental Avenue. This way you would have a same platform transfer for midtown from any of the stations that the V shares with the other lines while on the Eastern Division. It would also allow the J/Z to run express the full length of Brodaway, making it a faster service, or at least feel faster, maybe luring a few downtown bound passengers away from the Queens line.
The V will be better off serving the Culver line than where no one will hardly use it.. Plus, the benefits of sending the V via the Culver line will allow the F to run express.. Wouldn't that be a wonderful service? It might actually reduce some of the overcrowding on the brighton and West End lines.
N Bwy
My preference would have the K running from Broadway Junction via Chrystie, switching to the 8th Av. line at W. 4th, running local to 145th St. This would allow J and Z to run express from Broadway Junction to Essex and M to run express from Myrtle to Essex, while providing riders from Bushwick and Williamsburgh direct access to midtown, like in the days of the QJ and KK.
i dont know how many times im gonna explain the reasons why things like this cant happen especially with MY V train.so 1:its never gonna happen. 2: why you wanna eliminate the M? are you against it for some insane reason?
for one,its not YOUR V train,for 2,because WE CAN,FOR 3,Because we want to. Most of these idea's coming from these gentlemen are valid,if not all... it has the foundations for helping two[or]three underused lines,and making them WELL USED lines by providing a sevice INCRESS.Combining the J/M south of Myrtle will kill the redunanty,adding a V or NEW K [or what ever you want to call it]will riders new options[like if they want to go UPTOWN].GET with the program,and stop being such a nay say-er... gezz...styfull already..huhhh?
The V on the broadway EL is a compete waste. Already, the broadway line is underutilized. Why waste the cars when people on the G line are complaining about extremely crowded trains.. Isn't that being selffish? Let me answer that for you, YESSSSSSSS!
N Bwy
Well for your information... I personaly use BOTH SUBWAY LINES,since I've lived around them for YEARS. I complety understand the plyte of the G line riders,because I was one of them and most of my friends/family still are. with R143 cars rolling,soon there should be enough cars available to being about some sort of service improvement for both routes.. UNlike some folks here on this board,I for one,will NOT say something about a particular line unless I knew what I was talking about...or ask silly questions....or make simple minded statements...and I dont find anything selfish about wanting to see a very old subway line improved to bring increased ridership.By the way,arent you the one always griping about the BROADWAY LINE and how its underused? I, my friend,beg to differ...ITS seeing more service now than 1985- 1988,90 until 2002[because of bridge work].so to keep this friendly,I disagree with your comments,and therfore why we are here on this board.to DISCUSS trains and thing of simular nature. thank you
You completely overlook the fact that there's limited compacity when the train runs on the bridge.. And besides, who will use it if they already have the F line? Subway fans... like they represent the majority of subway riders..
Besides, the L already has enough of a crowd problem to make matters worse by sending another line to Canarsie... Which will not encourage anyone, but those using it for A express at E.NY.. By the way, people are already doing that with the L service... so it's a very bad idea.
Let me tell you where the improvements should be made... and this has been said many times..
Make the Z express, and the M and J local. Build a one track line up Jamaica Avenue and two island platforms at Woodhaven Blvd for express service. Now, that's an improvement over the plan you suggest earlier.
Instead of creating a bottleneck on the Broadway El (and anger passengers using the "L" stations, because of infrequent service) it will alleviate the over-crowding on the A/E lines by offering faster service to downtown Manhattan.
If you can't realize that, than you might have to start riding the Broadway El more.
N Bwy
Pairing the V and L trains non-rush hours at Rockaway Parkway wouldn't be a problem -- certainly the number of TPH would be less than the V and R at Continental.
During rush hours, not all trains would have to go there if the crowding is too much. You could turn some L trains at Myrtle Ave. (where the BMT turned trains coming from Manhattan for years and years and years) and some Vs could run short and terminate at Broadway Junction, espcially if the yard assignments were reworked to run some rush hour trains out of the East New York yard - just put `em in and drop `em out at the Junction and send them to the yard when rush hour is over.
Running V from Canarsie would give passengers there a one-set ride into midtown Manhattan, which they have never had. People living south of B'way Junction and working on the east side in Manhattan would probably opt to stay on the L and transfer for the IRT at Union Square, but those working further west would have a far better choice than they have now (and the transfer to the A is far easier at West Fourth than it is at East New York).
Nothing's going to happen anyway until the CTBC proves itself on the Canarsie Line and is expanded to the rest of Eastern Division, and enough R-160s arrive to make it feasible to run an all 60-foot fleet on the V. In the end, the MTA may decide the V would be better served running to Church Ave. or they may think there's no reason to extend the line past Second Ave. But the V-Canarsie option would require little new construction, and would permit both the J and Z to run peak direction express along Broadway in Brooklyn, which combined with the skip-stop service on Jamaica Ave. would make that line far more attractive to people in Queens headed downtown, who jam the E and F right now.
"(and the transfer to the A is far easier at West Fourth than it is at East New York)."
It might be easier, but it definitely won't be faster!
" In the end, the MTA may decide the V would be better served running to Church Ave."
If the MTA done something like this, I will give them much praise.
"and would permit both the J and Z to run peak direction express along Broadway in Brooklyn, which combined with the skip-stop service on Jamaica Ave. would make that line far more attractive to people in Queens headed downtown, who jam the E and F right now."
constructing a one track line along jamaica avenue will accomplish this goal.
than installing a third track along the jamaica avenue
and lastly, building an express station at Woodhaven blvd, is a whole lot better than placing another line on an already crowded corridor.
N Bwy
Of course the transfer at W4 is faster than the transfer at Broadway Junction. Go up two flights and you're there. There are even direct platform-to-platform escalators.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Williamsburg Bridge carries only 18 tph each way, max (6 tph on each of the J, M, and Z). There's room for more service. I can't say if there's a need, but L trains aren't empty at the end of the line, so an additional service to the end of the line might be warranted.
Back during the days of the KK/K, you had the M and QJ also running across the Willie B rush hours. Since the QJ's frequency was just about the same as the combined current J/Z set-up, there should be some capacity right now left over on the bridge to handle a "real" third line (which would probably still handle fewer TPH than the Manny B was doing during rush hours when the B/D/Q were sharing the Sixth Ave. tracks).
Plus, at W4th the E is there in addition to the A and C.
The "V" already stops at West 4th.
The "K" never ran via Broadway, there was a "K" service that replaced the "AA" service on the IND 8th Avenue lines in the early 80s, and a "K" from 57/6 IND to B'way Junction BMT, however.
The "K" never ran via Broadway
and a "K" from 57/6 IND to B'way Junction BMT
I think you're thinking of different Broadways. The line between the Willy B and Broadway Junction runs over Broadway, so the K Train was on Broadway (of sorts).
in fact,I do every time in in town[since im not that far away]and as far as being a fan,WE all are.. thats why we're here. The reason the K failed[and im repeating myself],it wasnt made atractive enough to lure riders[rush hours only,old cars completly,and lack of express service].Not to mention the the city was in the middle of a fiascal crises,all of which contributed to what the TA concidered to be ''low ridership'',which lead to the cancellation of this so-called low priority line.DO you understand? This line was going to fail REGARDLESS,BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT WAS OPERATED. IF you want to into the real nitty gritty,the whole Eastern division was concidered''low priority'',which lead to crappy service for years.I'll be the first to admit that the J line [in which i've been traveling on since 1967]take the''slow way'' to Queens..,but this can change,with some[like I was saying before]SEVICE IMPROVEMENTS. The line down Jamaica ave[from Cypress to Cresent] is a pipe dream at best,so we have to work with what we have. and how would running the V on Bway create a bottleneck at ENY? What i said,consolitdate J/M sevices south of Myrtle to Bay Pky,and replace M with V to Metropolitan. With the cars made availible from the M,J/V trains will have enough cars to run every 3-5 minutes at rush,and 7-10 middays.The L will have new 143's so no problems there. the Z will stay the same,except it could run local between Myrtle AND ENY....and what about the F? IF we had another option[transfer or direct]service,which would YOU TAKE? If you could avoid changing trains at Delancey st,if it were avilable, wouldn't you? LIKE I SAID,i know my ....,and I know it can be done,if the Right people were behind it...like you guys have out there in in Queens....
Well.... maybe.... this plan can work... except, I would keep the M line, just reroute it over towards Queens Blvd. And I would change the Z to the K.. and make the new K line express from Essex to Broadway Eastern Pkwy.
N bwy
its my V train and its gonna remain that way.and while all these ideas are all well and good,with knowing about the exact cars total in every yard,there isnt enough for anything,maybe add some to those that dont run complete train sets like the G or C but thats it.plus i seriously doubt the TA would ever do anything about increase ridership. they base service by the number of people who use the line throughout its entirety so when they know they have enough service,they stick with it unless something really drastic happens.oh yes,they make service on every line the way it is because in case you've forgotten,we got a group of workers called Traffic Checkers and they're the ones who provide all the ridership info and based on that info is how long and how many trains they decide to use.
so what your telling me[let me get this right],the reason the A,C,J,M,V,N,Q,R,F,W 456,and V LINES are screwed up,IS BECAUSE YOU HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT? The cancellation of those routes that ''didn't work'' was your fault? The lines that were to be built [and weren't],did you have something to do with that? the ones that were PAID FOR MORE THAN ONCE by the Tax payers[like myself] of this state...you HAD A HAND IN THAT?Because if that was the case ,if I were you,i'd get a good lawyer...the lawsuits are comin'YOUR WAY. Like I was telling another poster on this board.. I know my .... and most likly,been using the subways before you were born. What you needto do is tone down the ''tude'' Miss,and try to be a little more open to sujustions,than OBJECTIONS.It's unnecessary and uncalled for here on this board.Most of all,it's rude.I've yet to see you contribute anything usefull,so please do so in the future. thank you.
now where'd the heck you get that from? for one im only 19 so no way in hell could i have a hand in anything,i dont work for the TA yet but soon i will.now then service on the lines you mentioned arent screwed at all.you have to understand that there are several things that factor into why service is the way it is.and believe me no subway line runs longer than 10min headways everyday except late night when all lines are every 20mins and early sunday morning when most lines are every 15mins for a couple of hours and the 2 currently being every 12mins on the weekends.step into the shoes of the TA then you'd see why things are the way they are.if service takes longer,something went wrong somewhere,plain and simple,nothing you can do about something thats beyond your control.lines that werent built goes back far before i was even born pal so dont blame me for it!and whats there to contribute?this is a message board,i speak my mind,enough said.
my point exactly.Dont claim something that you have nothing to do with. I understand that you like the V line, but you REALY need to tone it down some buddy...
i wasnt claiming anything to begin with ya moron,jeez.im simply stating what the hell is true cause i know it is and dont ask me how cause your not gonna get an answer back.your gonna have ta find out yourself how i know what i know.
you made my case for me.YOUR age has begun to show,little one... leave this room to the big boys, and run along now...also you could use a few leasons[grammer,manners,english as a second language and so forth,manners being at the top of the list]This is one,you wont be able to win[baca=idiota=stupido=stupida=cabroan]what ever..... so[jeez]bitme.
Just thought I'd change the name of the thread, so I wouldn't keep entering it expecting to join a discussion of running the V on the BMT Broadway Line. You guys can get back to it now without bothering me.
A flame war in the making ?
I hope not.
Bill "Newkirk"
No it isn't... Like I just told Larry, IM the last person to get in one of these silly little spats here,so I will no longer have my chain yanked by this person.... sorry guys. We are ALL human ,and sometimes we can be caught of guard by someone here [name calling]. For this act[on my part]I'm sorry..... to everyone. THAT BEING SAID....V train is in the killfile....
you my friend are ...right. I never get into ''one of these silly things,so I wont start now... so thank you for pulling my coatail about it... Sorry guys!!!!
Your subject change isn't fair. I've fixed it.
What's age got to do with anything? Should I sod off by the same token, being 19?
do you feel the need to insult someone here also,because of a comment? I simply stated a need for additional service to the Easterm division,and another poster rebuked it,claiming other things,simply because he/she doesn't like it,and he/she favors this line its present configuration. When I called him/her on their claim of ''ownership'' of said subway route,and a few other things,...well you know the rest.... with age comes a certain amount of maturity I suppose.. so insted of calling each other names when at odds,why not AGREE TO DISAGREE? So,no,my friend.I don't want you to ''sod off''because your 19,but I do want you to respect me like I respect you.Good enough? Alrity then....
first off,english is my main language,spanish is my 2nd language.and dont call me little one,i know 10 times more than all of the people in this board put together and who the hell cares if proper grammer is used or not? thats the least thing anyone should be worried about around here.this is a message board or have you forgotten that? I'm free to say what i think and what i know about any topic that perks my interest.anyone who suggests something like an extention,wether it be a lil fantasy they have or they actually THINK it can be done,I simply lay down the factors that contribute to it not being able to happen,now,never,or maybe being able to be done sometime in our lifespan if the TA even considers it.now i have no problem having a train run from Queens Blvd or where ever then use that track that hasnt been used in 30+ years.I myself even wonder why the heck the TA doesnt do something about it.of course car shortage is a reason why and probably the only reason.but then the original poster who started this thread actually picks the V train and I dont like that because it makes me believe he/she doesnt like it just like almost everyone else.I mean,why the V? why cant it be the F or something?why the V? I already dispise the people who keep critizing the line for the way it is without realizing how much good it can do them.at least i got the decency and common sense to realize it unlike everyone else.If any line should run that type of service is the Z.I say eliminate the skip-stop service and run the Z from Broadway Junction-Continental Ave. or 179th St.to me it sucks that it only runs for 1 hour one way during the rush hours.to me,it should be more useful and that's sure one hell of a way to make it useful.keep one thing in mind.The V was made to reduce overcrowding in Queens not to give riders an extra option to get home.that's why it ends at 2nd Ave and not somewhere better.now please,i dont want another confrontation like the one i had with E_DOG so long ago.i already told you the truth above so thats it.i say i know wayyyyyyyy more than anyone in this board put together and thats also true and not just cause i know someone who's climbed the ladder from the bottom up in the TA itself for 12 years but also with my curiosity i tend to find things out for myself one way or another and having learned so much for the last 15 years,i know what I'm always saying and very rarely do I stand corrected.So please sir love9400,let's just call a truce ok? I'm not looking for bad blood,I just say what i think and also apply my knowledge of the whole topic and thats all there is to it.
>>>...i know 10 times more than all of the people in this board put together ...<<<
Umm, gee, way to diss everyone one this board. A comment like that should make you successful in being put into everyones killfile. Is that your goal?
Peace,
ANDEE
im not dissing anyone by saying that,thats just the honest truth,why do you fail to realize that?
Uh, yeah, whatever.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>...why do you fail to realize that?<<<
Because all you have shown me is an ability to insult people who do not agree with you and an inability to use the space key or the caps key. IMO your knowledge of mass transit is, at best, mediocre.
Peace,
ANDEE
sorry pal,my knowledge of transit is the best there is.you wont find nobody else that knows as much as i do so get used to it.
Thank you for supporting my arguement. E-dog was right. Welcome to my killfile.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS: grow up, foamer!
Peace,
ANDEE
fine,thats your way of saying you dont believe me,and i dont care anymore.you dont believe me? fine,so be it.Even though I'm not lying about that statement.
the V is A RAPID TRANSIT LINE,LIKE ALL THE OTHERS. Yes,it's main function is relieve stress from the overcrowed QUEENS BLVD LINE[mainly E/F routes],BUT.. It is currently operating at an 52% level,which is not a bad thing.That simply means it serving it function,which is the statement above. In no way, form, or fasion did I say,''I dont like the V train because....''. What I am in favor of,is service improvements,in which i sugusted using the current V line as an example....and yes I believed then [and still do]that this paticular route can handle the extention to the Eastern division,with the proper headways,whereas it would serve both Q.B,AND BWAY BKLYN well.FUTHER MORE,no one here is casting doutes on your knowledge of the rapid transit system,but I [and quite a few others I suppose]truly doute that YOU know more about the system than anyone else here,even if you KNOW someone working for the MTA.I'm saying that, to say this...from what i can see,you are fairly new to this board,and the way you come off[FROM YOUR POSTINGS=The name callings, to the utter disrespect]on people ,PUTS THEM OFF TO WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY! If you want to continue to post here and get a postive response,then my sugestion to you is to contrubute something usefull. Keep it positive and your tone polite! That way you will gain the respect of your fellow posters [such as myself],and YOU won't be IGNORED! Dont be another BUSFAN!WHETHER you care about that,I dont care,but IT is food for thought,and you should get your self a plate[and a big helping too] You want peace with me,fine I'm game.Follow the rules,and there wont be problems from ANY OF US..... LOVE yourself,and everybody else will too.
Allright everyone, Call a truce, and lets not let this go any further. Call it a night. V Train M20 Bus, In order to avoid conflicts , you really need to watch your tone, words, and avoid name calling. Hurling insults won't get you anywhere, but into someone's killfile. Many times, your insults were uncalled for ( i.e. What you said to me), and you should think twice before hitting the post button.
BTW, Am I being ignored by anyone?
I completely agree with you and I too think the V train would do well on the Eastern Division. It would certainly be better than having it dead-end at 2nd Avenue like it does now. That connection from the 6th Avenue IND to the Williamsburg Bridge should not be sitting there unused, and no, it should not be sealed up like one person suggested a while back. It can and should be put to good use. Eastern Division riders deserve direct service to the heart of Midtown Manhattan just as much as anyone else.
i dont have a problem with a line going through that unused track but i take into consideration that then the V will become 8 car trains all the time and i believe in one way or another its gonna cause a problem.i think using the Z is a whole lot better for this since it already comes out of ENY yard where cars are always set for 8 cars and there wouldnt be enough cars at ENY for V service if it were to move there.if it were the V then it would probably be based out of Jamaica Yard and then the crews there would have to take a pair of cars and move them around and all that stuff,lot of hassle I'm sure they wouldn't want to go through.Although how much you wanna bet that when the R160's finally come in,then the TA will start thinking about that.I'm almost sure of it.
>>>...the V will become 8 car trains <<<
The V is already 8 car trains, know it all.
Peace,
ANDEE
yes 8 75 foot cars,i was referring to it becoming 8 60 ft cars which is all the Eastern Division can handle.
ive been on this board for close to a year now.of course when subtalk went on hiatus i lost my old handle,i didnt know how to get it back so i made this one.
What is an E-CAM system? Where was the P-WIRE located on the R44? Where was the original terminal for the 8th ave subway located,and why was it changed? Who built the IND 6TH ave line,and where did they begin construction.What year? WHAT year did the TA decide to use the 75 ft car,and when was the first R44 made?Who designed the car?WHAT year was the 63rd street subway first proposed? The R40m/42's seen now,are not what the cars were going to look like.Why was it changed and when? what was the horse power on the cars R10 thru 42? before GOH,and is it the same today?Did Pullman go out of Business after the R46 contract?Name a country with two ''a''s in its name.Name a state with two ''a''s in its name.What does ''in the hole''mean? How many levels does West 4th stret station have?How many exit/ENTRY does Lexington ave 63rd street have?Name a BRIDGE in which a BORO is named after.What was wrong with the R32 cars when they first arrived to the subway?Why wasn't the Utica ave subway built?Name a subway line that takes you from Downtown Brooklyn to Downtown Jamaica.Who was President of the USA when the first IRT SUBWAY opened? In what year did the Queens line open in Jamaica?How many years did it take the TA to complete the 63rd tunnel? what year was it ''holed thru''? What year did the IND E train run to Church ave Bklyn? What year did the SIRT stop service on the North shore line,and why? I have quite a few more[a lot more] but,if you can answer these.. then you wont just be ''all talk'' in my book.
LOL.
Peace,
ANDEE
HA! I only did it to prove a point,Andee.We don't know it all.. I love subways just as much as anybody else around here,but I would never make a claim like''I know 10 times as much as anybody on this board'',let alone make any type of claim I can't back up with hard data.Im sure most if not all would agree with me. The line of questioning wasn't ment to ''shut her up''per say,it's like I said... food for thought.Some of you guys here,are old enough to be my father and I'm sure although you know quite a bit about the subway,you dont know it all!!!At this site,you make statments like that,you have to ''show-n-prove''or you crediblity is shot!No harm ,no foul.
I agree V train... Your better off on the culver line.. would you say? What about making you a culver local.. and the F express? Your service could be an only rush hour service... (I don't see no other reason for it, except a waste of subway cars). Meanwhile, the G could be extended during this time... I'm sure I would get a lot of G fans for proposing this..
The reason why I know about the V line, is because I use it towards Jamaica and Manhattan often.. And it barely gets about 10 passengers per car..
The only problem might be the E line... But I don't see it being that affected during the non-rush hours.. Just run a few more trains at 11 cars each. Other than that, I think this idea will work.
N Bwy
heh heh heh....the hell with the G,screw the G,it can run from Smith/9 to Court SQ 24/7 for all i give a damn about it,i want the V to run 24/7 from Queens to Brooklyn,i dont care where so long as it becomes a 24/7 line.
It's just too much service for that Queens Cooridor - particularly during the midday and evenings.
Besides, who ever came up with the idea of running the G, R, and V in the evenings? As it appears, the TA seem to suggest that there are more riders than they are during the rush hour period. But the numbers of people using the line seems to tell another story.
Again... the V should be an "only" rush hour service.. while the G should do evenings, nights and weekends.. The R should be Rush hours, middays, evenings and weekends.. not nights..
Meanwhile, the E should run express all the time.. And the F should run local during the night period.
N Broadway
Not running the G along Queens Boulevard during the day was an operational solution, devised by service planners. Running the G along Queens Boulevard in the evening was a political solution, devised by politicians.
David
Your right! it was definitely a political decision... even if it doesn't make sense to run the V line other than rush hours.
N Bwy
Of course it does. Some sort of V should run on weekends also. When was the last time you tried to get from 6th Avenue to 53/5 or 53/Lex on a weekend? It approaches an exercise in futility if there's a GO sending the D via 8th one way.
"When was the last time you tried to get from 6th Avenue to 53/5 or 53/Lex on a weekend? It approaches an exercise in futility if there's a GO sending the D via 8th one way."
Best to go via W 4th if you're at 23rd, or via the L if you're at 14th, though that's not what the signs say.
At 14th and 6th on the F/V uptown platform, the permanent signs tell you to take 3 trains to get to E 53rd on the weekend, even though the best is to just go downstairs to the L, ride it to 8th Ave, and get an E.
The climb from the L to the E at 14/8 is quite long. I'd be inclined to take three trains, all cross-platform transfers.
The V would still be more convenient.
Also, don't forget that the E is a Queens express during the day. Anyone going to a local station has to add on yet another transfer (or can opt to traverse the passageways at 34th and take the R instead).
The climb from the L to the E at 14/8 is quite long
Alot of the L train transfers are hard. The one from the L to the M is a nightmare at Myrtle-Wyckoff. The one from the L to the 1/2/3 at 6th, and the transfer from the L to the 4/5/6 at Union Square is also sort of long. The Broadway line transfer at Union Square is one of the easiet for the L.
On a similar note:
Of course, sometimes it depends on which passageway a person takes at a station, because sometimes there is more than one way to transfer from one line to another in a station, but I wonder what transfer from one line to the other is the worst in the system. I find the transfer from the 8th Ave line to the 42nd Street shuttle at Times Square to be one of the worst, if not the worst in the system. Any other nominations?
I've found that transfers in NYC are nothing compared to transfers in certain stations in London, Paris, Barcelona, and Madrid. The maps should be marked with estimated number of minutes walking!
Here are some other rotten transfers:
N/R to the F at Ninth St./Fourth Ave.
N/R to the southbound 2/3 at Borough Hall.
N/R to the J/M/Z at Canal St.
J/M to the 4/5 at B'way-Nassau.
2/3 to the 4/5 at B'way-Nassau
2/3 to the E at Park Place-Chambers/WTC.
1/2/3 to the F/V at 14th St.
A/C to the Manhattan-bound L at Broadway Junction.
E/V to the downtown 6 at 53rd-Lex (especially when it's really been raining)
N/R to the J/M/Z at Canal St.
Yeah that one has gotten even worse now that the Canal "bridge" platform is open again, since you must walk through it to transfer. It wasn't that bad when the station was abandoned, but now that you have people waiting there for the W and Q, it is hard to navigate through the station to get from the JMZ to the NR or 6. The platform is very narrow to begin with, and forget about it if a train is in the station and you have to navigate through herds of people getting on and off the train and moving in all directions. It amazes me that people don't fall off the platform at that station. They even have a railing at the bottom of the JMZ stairway along the track so no one actually does fall to the tracks right there.
How about the MJ to the A at Bridge/Jay.
That was pretty bad, too, but for a non-regular user like me (who was just riding the MJ as a railfan before they shut it down) the uniqueness of the ticket transfer almost made up for the long walk down from the Myrtle platform to the Jay St. station.
N/R to the F at Ninth St./Fourth Ave.
Absolutely.
N/R to the southbound 2/3 at Borough Hall.
To the SB 4/5, you mean. Up the stairs (they're taking their time replacing the escalator) to the 2/3, all the way to the other end of the platform, then through the passageway to the NB 4/5, halfway down that platform, and across the overpass. I did it once. Never again.
N/R to the J/M/Z at Canal St.
Yeah, that's bad.
J/M to the 4/5 at B'way-Nassau.
Only the NB J/M. The SB J/M to the 2/3 is probably a bit worse. And the 2/3 to the 4/5 is awful, as you say, but it's a popular transfer nonetheless.
2/3 to the E at Park Place-Chambers/WTC.
Too many ups and downs.
1/2/3 to the F/V at 14th St.
For the time being, it's worse if you're going the other way and you can use the 1/2 or the 3, which stop at different platforms. I invariably just miss a train on whichever platform I pick, and if I then run across to the other platform, I just miss a train there as well.
A/C to the Manhattan-bound L at Broadway Junction.
This one isn't too bad. It's a long ride, but I've never seen the escalator out of service.
E/V to the downtown 6 at 53rd-Lex (especially when it's really been raining)
Yup.
The worst transfer at Times Square, IMO, is from the BMT to the IND. The shuttle is further away but the 7, which goes to the same place, is a lot closer. And going the other way, from the IND to the BMT, the Flushing escalators can basically eliminate the climb, while going down the only reasonable options are running down the awful ramps or pushing through the crowded IRT platform.
The connection from the B/D/F/V to the 7 is long, also. The Herald Square transfers are a pain, both via the main mezzanine and at the south end. The S - 4/5/6 transfer at Grand Central always makes me scratch my head and wonder why the trains couldn't have continued down that passageway, as was once planned. 168th has a lot of walking and waiting but not much climbing. Columbus Circle has all the staircases oriented wrong, and 7th Avenue has the useful transfers downstairs (in either direction).
But the worst transfer of all? The 4/5 to the F using the new MetroCard transfer. A direct connection between those platforms would, I think, yield major changes to travel patterns in Queens.
"And the 2/3 to the 4/5 is awful, as you say, but it's a popular transfer nonetheless."
I'm surprise to hear that the 2/3 to the 4/5 on Fulton Street is a popular transfer point when you already have the Borough Hall Station transfer several stations away.
N Bwy
Anyone traveling to or from Brooklyn transfers at Nevins.
But a lot of pepole aren't leaving Manhattan at all and need to get between the East Side and the West Side. Fulton's the only place that's possible directly.
Every time I make that transfer, I make it with a substantial crowd of others.
That's still pretty weird... because the A is also a west side line.
I'm very sure that the A/C gets more of the transfers from the 4/5 at the Fulton Street station than the 2/3. Even the J/M/Z/ get more transfers.. but that depends on the time of the day.
The 2/3 is so far from the rest of the lines in that Bwy/Nassau Corridor that I'm sure most people avoid this transfer. But to be truthful, I rarely transfer to the 2/3 (J/M/Z) there.. I particular make my transfer to the 4/5 from the A/C or visa versa. Believe me! THAT IS THE MOST POPULAR TRANSFER IN THAT STATION.
N Bwy
"N/R to the J/M/Z at Canal St.
Yeah, that's bad."
What really made it bad is the traffic you have to fight through (people waiting for the Q/W)
You're right, David, I did mean the southbound 4/5-N/R transfer at Borough Hall was the big pain at that stop. Transfer to the 2/3 is an up-down move that's closer and involves one less trip upstairs.
The big problem with the A/C transfer to the Manhattan-bound L at B'way Junction is the extra overpass, which Canarsie-bound riders don't have to deal with. But it is better than it was before reconstruction.
"2/3 to the E at Park Place-Chambers/WTC."
This is probably the most interesting transfer in the entire system.. especially since there's no real need for it. Notice a transfer b/t the same two/three at Fulton Street.
As far as I'm concerned, Before reconstruction, transfering from the #7 to the 8th Avenue line was the worse transfer. I often gotten lost in a maze before I was able to find that main passageway that leads to the 8th Avenue line.
N Bwy
The E doesn't connect to the 2/3 (1/2 for now) at Fulton. The only other connection between the 2/3 and the E is at 42nd, with a much longer walk and more staircases.
The A/C does connect to the 2/3 at Fulton, but the walk is longer and involves a ramp. Park Place is the preferred transfer point.
"The E doesn't connect to the 2/3 (1/2 for now) at Fulton. The only other connection between the 2/3 and the E is at 42nd, with a much longer walk and more staircases."
Most, if not all, passengers using the E line go to the world trade center area. This is an irrelevant connection for the E.. as well as, it is for the A/C lines. The only good thing about that connection is the passageway allows people to walk from Broadway Park Place to Church Street underground.
N Bwy
You don't know what you're talking about.
Do you ever actually ride the subway?
At Metro/Lorimer, if you're transferring either way between the G and the Manhattan-bound L, you have to go upstairs from the G platforms to the mezzanine, which line up with the Canarsie-bound platform. Then it's downstairs, through a narrow underpass and upstairs again to the Manhattan-bound platform. In the underpass, you have to fight your way past mobs of people who just got off the Manhattan-bound L you just missed- or at night, the vagrants that hang out there. The presence of a Transit Police station in the mezzanine has not diminshed their presence in the least.
At Alantic/Pacific. Due to the layout of the IRT platforms, for most transfers you have to go down a half flight of stairs and then up again. This all takes place in narrow, crowded passageways. The only way to avoid this leapfrogging is to change between the 4th Avenue lines and outbound 1 and 2; or between the Brighton line and inbound 1 and 2. I don't know if the current renovations will make the movements somewhat less difficult.
The escalators at Yankee Stadium never seem to be working, even for games or following the completion of that never-ending renovation. Hasn't Steinbrenner had something to say about that?
I avoid changing at Jackson Heights unless absolutely necessary. The addition of a new escalator shaft has not kept up with the horrendous overpopulation of Queens.
Herald Square often confuses me for some reason. Maybe it's because some of the stairs and passageways at the south end to 32nd Street and the mall are closed on weekends and some aren't. Some of the escalators are only wide enough to accomodate one person, which is no help when that person is loaded down with packages- a common occurrence in that locale.
Some of the transfer passageways at Philly's City Hall and Market East complexes seem confusing or mismarked. Maybe if I used them every day they would be easier to navigate.
Someone mentioned London. Yes, there is a lot of walking between lines at some transfer points. Just about every long passageway had at least one vagrant or loud, off-key musician.
You mentioned Herald Square confuses you.
In my case, the Fulton St-Broadway/Nassau complex is a bit confusing. If transfering from the 2/3 (well now the 1) to the J/M, when I finally find the Nassau line (after walking along the Broadway-Nassau A station platform, I always seem to be wrong about which way the J or M train will come into the station. And that goes for if I am going Queens-bound or Broad Street-bound. I don't use the station often anymore, so now the few times I do, I'm usually wrong. I loose all sense of direction in the Fulton complex.
Getting betewen the IRT and the Canarsie Line at Union Square will make a normal-minded person feel like a rat in a maze.
Atlantic will have a second IRT underpass when the rehab is finished. That should help with the crowds. If you happen to have an unlimited and you're transferring between the Q and the Manhattan-bound 2/3 (1/2), you can use the south exit and reenter via the LIRR station.
The escalators at 161st have always worked for me, but I've never been to a Yankee game. I don't think Steinbrenner has any say in the matter unless he's willing to pay for more reliable escalators.
There's another bad transfer, from the NB 6 to the N/R/W at 59/Lex. It's actually not a bad transfer at all, but the signs are wrong. If you follow the signs, you'll first use the underpass to the SB 6 before being directed to the BMT platform, even though there's direct access from the NB 6 platform to the BMT platform.
The transfers at Canal were actually worse, say, two years ago: the only way to/from the NB J/M/Z was around the end of the platform, and only the NB bridge platform was open. If you were transferring from the railfan window on a NB J/M/Z to the SB N/R, you had to walk the length of the NB platform, wrap around to the SB platform, walk most of the length of that platform, go downstairs, walk to the other end, go upstairs, walk across that passageway, go back downstairs, go through the underpass, and finally come up to emerge on the N/R platform. Now there's direct access from the NB J/M/Z platform to both Q/W platforms and there's at least a chance the Q/W will take you where you're going and you won't need to walk to the N/R.
You still have to make a similar walk to get to the 6 from the JMZ, but you are right, I'm sure the JMZ transfer to the NR has decreased since the QW platforms have reopened, as alot of people don't have to go further than right there. It all depends on where they are going.
transfers in certain stations in London, Paris, Barcelona, and Madrid.
I'd say the worst in those would be:
London:
- Hammersmith - H&C Line is the other side of Hammersmith from District/Piccadilly LInes
- Monument / Bank - District/Circle Lines are through miles of passages from everything else
- Paddington - H&C to District/Circle is a very long way, Bakerloo to either of those is pretty bad
Paris:
- Châtelet (masses of long passages, some with (slow) moving walkways) extremely bad for the RER
- Montparnasse Bienvenüe - 2 different stations 4/12 is miles from 6/13
- St Lazare (awful in itself) - Haussman St Lazare RER - Havre-Caumartin - Auber RER - Opéra. The fact this covers three stops on ligne 3 is an indication of the length of these connections
- Gare du Nord - La Chapelle
- the irritating non-connection at Porte Dauphine / Avenue Foch
Barcelona:
- Passeig de Gracia
- Catalunya
- Diagonal - Provença
Madrid:
never been there, so can't really comment
Atlantic Avenue Station in Brooklyn.
From Manhattan bound 2 & 3 or the 4 & 5 platform to the M, N, R, W. Have to walk down the steep staircase and around the corner, then back up another steep staircase, a straight away, but then another steep staircase to get down to the M, N, R, & W
Just getting out of that station from the 4 & 5 platform is insane.
Thank God by 2006 it will be redesigned. So far the Brooklyn bound 2 & 3 is a straightaway after the steep staircase from the M, N, R, W
I remember when that wasn't a free transfer and it wasn't that long ago. There were turnstiles going both ways. It didn't really matter too much since you could get from the Pacific St station to the Brighton at DeKalb or the IRT at Borough Hall. However you couldn't get from the Pacific St (4th Av Line) to the LIRR without going up to the street and crossing Flatbush. (Unless you didn't mind paying another fare)
Atlantic Avenue Station in Brooklyn.
From Manhattan bound 2 & 3 or the 4 & 5 platform to the M, N, R, W. Have to walk down the steep staircase and around the corner, then back up another steep staircase, a straight away, but then another steep staircase to get down to the M, N, R, & W
Just getting out of that station from the 4 & 5 platform is insane.
Thank God by 2006 it will be redesigned. So far the Brooklyn bound 2 & 3 is a straightaway after the steep staircase from the M, N, R, W
"Alot of the L train transfers are hard. The one from the L to the M is a nightmare at Myrtle-Wyckoff. The one from the L to the 1/2/3 at 6th, and the transfer from the L to the 4/5/6 at Union Square is also sort of long. The Broadway line transfer at Union Square is one of the easiet for the L."
But the connection to the "F" line is probably the easiest in the entire system.
"Of course, sometimes it depends on which passageway a person takes at a station, because sometimes there is more than one way to transfer from one line to another in a station, but I wonder what transfer from one line to the other is the worst in the system. I find the transfer from the 8th Ave line to the 42nd Street shuttle at Times Square to be one of the worst, if not the worst in the system. Any other nominations?"
I remember when that wasn't a transfer... So, as bad as it is, it's useful... Especially since no where else is there a connection b/t the 8th Avenue and Broadway Lines.
N Broadway
You have to remember that the subway was built by two private companies (irt and BRT later on to be reborn as BMT) plus the city of NY (IND). None of the three operating companies wanted to give anything to theit competitors and thusly had separate fare cocntrol for their company. When the city acquired the IRT and BMT and raised tha fare to 10 cents, they started putting in free transferd. Regarding 42 on the A , that transfer was added relatively recent during the previosu renoivation at 42 and 8 when the fare control was reconfigured. Prior to the reconfiguration, therew were street stairs and a booth where the plywood now exists on the passageway's South side just past the Westernmost staireway from the 7. A look at the concrete will show where thwe turnstiles were. The nearest rtansfer at that time was 59th street and was for IRT local to the IND.
The COurt Square/23 Ely and 51 /Lex (6 to E/V) were built by Citibank and not the system.
My vote goes to the connection between the F and R at 9th St/4th Ave. Too many stairs! A close second is the meandering path you must take to get from the A/C/E to the N/Q/R/W at Times Sq. The long tunnel is bad enough, but those ramps! I found a shortcut whic allows you to bypass those ramps with an escalator buy going down onto the 7 platform.
"The climb from the L to the E at 14/8 is quite long. I'd be inclined to take three trains, all cross-platform transfers.
The V would still be more convenient."
It might be more convenient, but it's very useless to most of the people who don't use it during non-rush hours. In other words, the resources could be use elsewhere.
N Bwy
Any train is useless to most of the people who don't use it, during rush hours or not.
Try again.
(As for the people who do use it, I believe there are more of them at any given time of day than there are people who use the G at that same time -- except when the V isn't running at all, of course. Recall that V trains are twice as long as G trains, so G trains have to be more than twice as crowded than V trains for them to have greater ridership. Last I heard, the V was filled to 52% of capacity during rush hours, although that number may have changed. Are G trains filled to 104% of capacity? If not, then V trains carry more passengers.)
I'm specifically talking about non-rush hours... But if mentioned that the train is only 52 percent full, why is the train 8 75 foot cars? And, if it's 52 percent full during rush hours, just picture how empty it is during non rush hours? My only suggestion will be to reduce the hours the V line operates and to increase R service during the midday slightly.
N Bwy
The R and V go to different places. A lot of local passengers need to go to the place the V goes. A lot of 6th Avenue passengers need the 53rd Street line.
52%, huh? That's up from 47% or so when the line opened for business.
Do you really want to eliminate a train whose ridership is climbing?
It was 52% around April, according to the various articles I saw then. I don't know what it is now. It may well be higher.
There's no question it's climbing. Gradually.
"It might be more convenient, but it's very useless to most of the people who don't use it during non-rush hours."
Illogical statement. A subway line helps people who don't take it by easing crowding from the trains they do take. The V does that.
thats the way he thinks... I truly believe V service could provide an excellent north south addition to the Eastern division lines... and yes it would be use during the middays[unlike the old KK/K...couldn't use what wasnt there]if you could avoid the F crowds.... thank you,Ron for seeing this.
I hope, once the Manny B fully reopens, that the V can be extended to Brooklyn. Hopefully, the Bergen interlocking will have been repaired by then (the TA has started doing that) and the subway fleet will have enough new R-143's so that the train length and frequency will be maintained.
I understand, happily, that a 6-car G train will be possible this September due to more rolling stock being available. That's good news for G riders.
I'm vouching for the extension towards Church Street as well.. At least we are on the same page on this one.. Even though I don't support the current V service.. Too much for too little passenger flow. THE R CAN HANDLE IT!
N broadway line
The R doesn't go to 53/Lex. Familiarize yourself with the subway map.
People just have to get use to using the R at 59th for their commute to Queens.
N Bwy
In your fantasy world, absolutely.
"Illogical statement. A subway line helps people who don't take it by easing crowding from the trains they do take. The V does that"
That it does during the rush hours... But during other times, it really doesn't matter.. Although I would increase E service slightly to accomodate the missing V service.
N Bwy
How do you propose for people to get from 6th Ave to E 53rd St? The connection is really messy without the V, as discussed before. Weekdays this is a fairly popular combination of origin and destination.
The D to the E at the 7th Avenue Station.
N Bwy
"The D to the E at the 7th Avenue Station."
That's 3 trains if you start below 34th St.
Admittedly, the 6th Av line is a special case until the Manny B reopens in 2004.
"That it does during the rush hours... But during other times, it really doesn't matter.."
Yes it does. The V is Queens Blvd's local service to the 53rd/Lex interchange.
Do yourself a favor. Go back and review the archives and look at MTA maps before beating the dead horse again.
One extra transfer won't hurt.
Yes it will.
"One extra transfer won't hurt."
The general principle in NY is that you can get between two major points with 2 trains rather than 3 (yes, Greenpoint is an exception in many cases).
It's very absurd that on weekends (and midday in your proposal) it takes 3 trains to get from 23rd and 6th to 53rd and 5th, both of which are IND stations!
Really? I've never heard of that principle. Are all local stations, regardless of volume, not considered "major points"? Within Manhattan alone, many trips are impossible without transferring twice.
Which is why the V is a good service and it should run weekends as well. And if runs from Metropolitan Avenue into Manhattan via the Willy B, people who live in Middle Village, Glendale and Maspeth may use it instead of driving into Manhattan. Another advantage to reusing the 6th Avenue-Eastern Division connection.
you want the F to be like the A? cmon,its already 'murder' having the A run local the whole route 207-Far Rock which takes over 2 hours long and the same happens with the F when it ran local during late nights.i say the F remains express,its a kind of relief if you ask me,the E being a shorter line than the F deserves to run local and compliment the G during the night.and not to be blunt,but your starting to sound like all the rest of them who hate the V train and just want it out of the way,like the TA made the biggest mistake of thier life adding the V.i have seen it all since day 1 and the V has ABSOULTELY NO REASON to be critized what so ever.if they dont like going local,well thats just to damn bad.i'd trade being squashed like a pancake on an express train to get a seat on a local train any day.
the people who ride the Queens Blvd lines flat out only care about getting to where they're going FAST! they figure screw the seat,"I just wanna get home as quick as possible". i know when im in that type of mood I'd settle for a nice relaxing ride with a seat rather than stand and being squashed + feeling my feet ache because I've been standing for so long.so to all those Queens riders:STOP CRITIZING THE V TRAIN!! IT WAS MADE FOR YOU!FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!!TO HELP YOU!! -coughs- ahem.
You should tell that to all the V train-haters over there on the Straphanger's message board. So many of them want to "F the V."
i did that they'd be like "who the hell are you? make like Micheal Jackson and BEAT IT!"
I wonder how many of them want the Q "back on 6th Avenue" and want Broadway to go back to having only the N and the R.
if anyone wanted that then they'd be stupid.id go up to thier faces and say it straight "your stupid". if the Q/Q went back to 6th Ave,do tell where the heck it would end? with the B,D,F,V there,there is no need for the Q/ Q train to go back.i say it'll stay on Broadway,ending at 57th st untill there is enough cars to warrant an extention to Queens.
Ah, you should have been there when poor Alex L. got a faceful of some angry nutjob on the 34th Street/6th Avenue platform who demanded to know why the Q wasn't stopping there (and claimed he rode the Q regularly). I know you would have set that wacko straight if you were there.
Q on Broadway forever!
As long as the "Q" don't affect me, it can stay on Broadway.. But why does it seem that the "Q" gets preferential treatment over the other lines? But I guess we have to go back to a time when the "Q" was treated as a "fill-in" not a substantial means of transportation. Those were the days when the "M" ruled the Brighton Local and the "N" (my line!) ruled the Broadway Express tracks! Those were the days when the "Q" was just a shadow in the subway system.
N Broadway
It has nothing to do with the Q. The BRIGHTON line gets preferential treatment over other lines through DeKalb. It makes sense that the most heavily used of those lines gets preferential treatment.
The Brighton line does not always get preferential treatment. From what I've seen, the Q-Diamond usually have higher priority on both the W and Q-Circle. The W though has priority over the Q-Circle. I've been on several Q-Circles that has been held up at either 42nd Street, DeKalb or the old Myrtle Av station so the W can cross in front of it. This rarely happens on the Q-Diamond. It's good though to have the priorities this way because its balances Broadway Express service.
The TA got it right with scheduling the progression W--Q circle--Q diamond in both directions.
The Q lines has priority, and it should, because it's the only line on Brighton.
But alone, it just isn't enough! By the way, the N/R always seem to get shafted, even over the "M" line. Maybe that's why service isn't as good on these two lines.
One way to solve this problem is to make the V - W - M lines a rush hour only train.. and increase both N and R services.
N Bwy
A good experiment to try. Modify it this way - see if you can increase the R trains by one train per hour, and leave the V train alone (making your experiment realistic instad of one that no one would seriously consider).
One way to solve this problem is to make the V - W - M lines a rush hour only train..
How do you get to West End Line stations then?
A shuttle is provided b/t 36th Street other times for west end service.
N Bwy
M rush hour only? and do tell what would run from Metropolitan Ave then hmm?
I honestly don't blame them. The V definitely made the commute worse for a lot of people.
OTOH, it made the commute better for a lot of other people, and that's why it makes sense.
(As for the Q, a Brighton-Broadway service makes a lot of sense and I can't imagine why there wouldn't be one in the 2004 service plan, nor why it would be called anything but Q. Whether it should run local or express on Brighton I don't know, but IMO it should ideally be the full-time service, as Broadway is more useful than 6th on weekends.)
Exactly! Broadway is more useful than 6th on weekends and it was even before the bridge flip in July 2001. I'm glad to get a second opinion on that. I would like to see the Q run 24/7 and become the main Brighton service as it was before Chrystie.
and in my view,no train in the subway is 'local'. think of the limited stop service on some bus routes.they make stops like 34st,42,50,57...and so forth.the 'local' train is pretty much the same thing....W4St,14,23,34,42,47-50 Sts....and so on.and they dont get stuck in traffic like buses do.what takes a bus over an hour to get to 34st from 168 st,takes my hometown 1 train just over 20mins.to me,i wouldn't call that 'local'.
What's so bad about the A running local? The local run takes about 12 minutes longer than the express run. Over the course of a trip from Inwood to Inwood (okay, Far Rockaway, but the other Inwood's pretty close) that's practically negligible. (I know it feels like a lot more than 12 minutes -- but that's all it is!)
"you want the F to be like the A? cmon,its already 'murder' having the A run local the whole route 207-Far Rock which takes over 2 hours long and the same happens with the F when it ran local during late nights.i say the F remains express,its a kind of relief if you ask me,the E being a shorter line than the F deserves to run local and compliment the G during the night."
The reason why I picked the "F" is because of the configuration. The E and G both come in at QUeens plaza.. It wouldn't make since to have the E go local when it's already on the express tracks and there's a cross platform connection. Plus, the passengers using the local stations before Roosevelt Avenue won't have the option of using the F line without double backing.
N Broadway
"but your starting to sound like all the rest of them who hate the V train and just want it out of the way,like the TA made the biggest mistake of thier life adding the V.i have seen it all since day 1 and the V has ABSOULTELY NO REASON to be critized what so ever.if they dont like going local,well thats just to damn bad.i'd trade being squashed like a pancake on an express train to get a seat on a local train any day."
To be honest, you don't sound like a person who has matured. Anyway, no one is criticizing "your" V line.. I'm only pointing out that during certain hours very few people are using it. Since that is the case, why not reduce the service to rush hour... than during the evening hours, bring the G in as a fill-in. Financially speaking, it just makes sense!
"i know when im in that type of mood I'd settle for a nice relaxing ride with a seat rather than stand and being squashed + feeling my feet ache because I've been standing for so long."
Like some people out there, I like laying my WHOLE body across the seat (that's how I fine comfort), because, THAT'S HOW MUCH ROOM IS ON THOSE TRAINS!!! But commonsense should tell you that if I can occupy that much room, the service has outlived it's usefulness.
N Broadway
"…The reason why I know about the V line, is because I use it towards Jamaica and Manhattan often.. And it barely gets about 10 passengers per car.. "
That cause it goes the same place the E, F, G and R train go. Maybe if it brached off east onto Jewel Avenue, north Kissena Blvd (get some Quuens college and CUNY law students) then east either under the LIE or 46th Avenue.
Time to extend into Queens a bit :)
Leave my M alone. I support V running along the old Broadway-6 Av "K" line. But leave my M alone.
You should be the last person to support a V extending to the Broadway EL.. First of all, there isn't the passenger flow that will make an extra train necessary there.. And two, have you ever considered compacity? Also, did you notice that there are only two tracks on the bridge?
Canarsie already has a line called the L.. and the J/Z line provides enough service for it passengers.
N Broadway
Yes, I'am the last person to support a V extending to the Broadway EL. And, I'm the first person to the V not to be eliminated from the system. And Yes, I've noticed there only two tracks on WillyB and I'm happen to live near WillyB all my life and familiar with the structure. As far as V extending to Broadway EL it won't anytime soon. According to recent article from the NY Time, TA official said they DON'T plan to move the V anywhere and insisted that they are making a converts. That means, not a single thing will happen to my M and V.
you mentioned in a previous post that you wouldn't mind having the V extended on the Broadway EL.. now your response is totally the opposite.... Hmmm... One wonders what your position is..
Anyway, any extension of the V should be towards Coney Island.
N Bwy
Well, I wouldn't mind having the V running via WillyB and via M to metropolitian. But my M has to stay. Run V and M together, or sent V via Willyb then to Canarsie, I don't care! My M has to stay! And yes, I strongly agree with you on that, send V to CI. That way the people began to like the V more. I like that idea! :)
I suppose when extending the V to CI, no headway problems are present.
I love my M as much as Fred loves his N. :)
hmmm.. Ok
N Broadway Line
I think that the V should run local to Church Ave. and the F should run express in Manhattan all the way to Church Av. Brooklyn. We need an express on the F. Maybe even run the V local to Kings Highway during rush hour and the F express to Kings Highway.
Oh yeh, the G in Brooklyn. That can also go to Church Ave. so the tracks at 9th street will be clear. Going outbound, the G would yield to any V that approaches Bergen St. from Jay St.
The switches at Kings Highway don't allow for trains to run local south of the station and express north of the station anymore. IIRC, NB expresses would have to bypass Avenue U.
And there's no reason at all to send the F express in Manhattan, bypassing two busy stops, one of which is a transfer point to two other trunk lines. The express tracks are useful only for the capacity they add.
B-205th-W4th(bronx/cpw local, 6th ave express)
D-NO SERVICE
E-same
F-2 services(combined TPH same as present)
1-(12 tph) same as pre 12/16
2-(3 tph) same as present
G- present service
Q- 63rd, queens local
1. No Concourse express? Why would you screw Bronx riders like that?
2. The B alone is insufficent for Concourse/West Side IND riders. A trains all alone will be overburdened.
3. Running the V thru 63rd. St will drive ridership levels even lower than the current 50% of capacity.
4. The 2 different F services will be confusing, with many riders ending up at 63rd/Lex when they wanted 53rd/Lex.
Why do people keep trying to re-do Queens Blvd when the current pattern is the best one available?
This is Subtalk. Anything is acceptable - just as long as I don't have to ride that service pattern in real life...
1, the Express is rush hour only, and reduces service to local stations, the B would have the combined B and D headways
2, with the same amount of trains as now, there should not be a problem
3, I had cut the V completely
the problem with the V is that it has no useful southern terminal
4, either F could be called the V,
B- 205th-W4th(bronx/cpw local, 6th ave express)
D- NO SERVICE
E- same
F- 2 services(combined TPH same as present)
1-(12 tph) same as pre 12/16
2-(3 tph) same as present
G- present service
Q- 63rd, queens local
R- same
If anyone has a copy of the updated electronic desination reading list for the R46 cars that were updated for the E,F,G,R,V & Grand St Shuttle, please post it on subtalk.
What do you mean Bus Fan???
-AcelaExpress2005
Visit Amtrak Modeling at:
Amtrak Modeling
Since just after 9/11, the R46s have had their signage put into a new format. For example, the R no longer says
R BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO 95 ST, BKLYN
It says:
R BAY RIDGE
R 95 ST
R BROADWAY LCL
R via 60 ST
All other lines/terminals are in a new format. He wants a list of all the signs that can be displayed after this new format was implemented.
Here's an interesting column by Lance Morrow in this week's TIME magazine. I don't necessarily agree with all his points but it's food for thought.
(NOTE: this link will only last a few days... TIME takes articles down after two weeks unless you are a paid subscriber. You can email the article to yourself though.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the key point he makes is that rail has received only 4% of the federal subsidies that air travel has. Sad
nice to see a 'straight' in the mainstream press actually get the details right. If the petro government weren't so stupid AND so corrupt, the energy waste cited alone would doom air travel to exactly what it is best at -- trnscontinental when your ____ is dying. The point about no need to even go may be the key. FWIW most apologists for the completely twisted fare structures claim that business travelers on the 'company's nickel' pay the outrageous fares while we supposedly get the bargains for our vacations.
If the businesses wise up, sell your stocks in the entire travel/hotel industry. ('Course some business worker bees WANT to be away fom home for a day or two at a time regularly because life at home is 'imperfect')
You can email the article to yourself though.
Just so you know, when I tried to e-mail the article to myself, all that was sent was an e-mail message with a HTML link to the article, not the article itself.
Just so you know, when I tried to e-mail the article to myself, all that was sent was an e-mail message with a HTML link to the article, not the article itself.
So I discovered. Used to be that if you selected the "text" option you got the full text. Oh well, there's always cut and paste...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think that the IND Queens line has the highest number of subway stations that carry obsolete names. To wit:
Van Wyck Boulevard: now the Van Wyck Expressway.
71st-Continental Avenues: In the 1930's, Continental Avenue used to stretch from approximately Metropolitan Avenue to Queens Boulevard. With the advent of the IND subway and increased population of the area, the name "Continental Avenue" was cut back and the street now begins at the LIRR Forest Hills station plaza (which is very picturesque, if you've never seen it) and stretches for some blocks through the Forest Hills Gardens neighborhood. From Queens Boulevard to the station plaza, the street is called "71st Avenue." So, the location where the subway station is situated is only 71st Avenue, not Continental.
Woodhaven Boulevard/Slattery Plaza: Slattery Plaza may have existed in the '30s but it hasn't for many years now. Currently, the Queens Center Mall sits on part of the site and the rest of it is occupied by the LIE entrance/exit ramps.
Grand Avenue/Newtown: This area hasn't been referred to as "Newtown" for quite some time, I believe, although there is still a "Newtown High School" in the area, so maybe this is still accurate to a degree.
Elmhurst Avenue: Does this street still exist, or is it 90th Avenue now?
65th Street: Although the station tiling is correct, there is still some black on white tiling on the platform pointing riders to "Rowan Street" - the prior name for 65th Street.
The Woodhaven Blvd station was thoroughly rehabbed a few years back, I recall. Although the signage is wrong, I'm glad NYCT didn't cover it up, they way they did at Mott Haven (138th Street) on the IRT.
The Woodhaven Blvd station was thoroughly rehabbed a few years back, I recall. Although the signage is wrong, I'm glad NYCT didn't cover it up, they way they did at Mott Haven (138th Street) on the IRT.
I think the name tablets are landmarked and can't be removed from a lot of stations. I hope if they ever rehab MottHaven they restore even half of the tablets. They should alternate the original ones with (since they are getting real good at the repros) make the other ones say 138th Street.
As everyone knows, the 149th Street-Grand Concourse IRT in the Bronx (2/5) used to be called Mott Avenue. NYCT has covered up every tiled mural bearing the name "Mott Avenue" in the station with white on black "149 Street-Grand Concourse" signs, except one. Now I'm not complaining (I love old signage) but does anyone know why that one was left alone? Did someone at Transit have a sense of history?
Here's the sign, if you've never seen it:
http://forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Subways%20remember/remember.html
More likely the replacement sign fell off and was never replaced.
--Mark
Really?
I thought it was Mott Haven"?
138th St/Grand Concourse was Mott Haven, IIRC.
Peace,
ANDEE
No, Mott Haven was the area around 149th Street, from there north to about 156th Street....it was the name of the NYC RR coach yard behind Cardinal Hayes HS, covered over in the mid-1960's by the Concourse Towers project.
No, Andee is right -- the 138th Street station used to be called Mott Haven and still has a repeating "MH" motif in its mosaics.
I stand corrected...now that others have mentioned it, I DO remember it having the "MH" in the mosaic.
But what I said about the neighborhood and the NYC Yard IS very much true as well.
FWIW, Hagstrom places Mott Haven south of where you do, right around 138th (but closer to the 6 train).
"Mott Haven" was actually a VERY small piece of the Bronx, stretching from East 137th to East 141 Street, ONLY on what is now Alexander Avenue. The "Mott Haven" neightborhood though is generally considered everything south of 138th Street.
NYC.GOV has an ADOBE PDF file pointing out the specific area here:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/lpc/pdfs/historic/mott_haven.pdf
Mott Haven is the NEIGHBORHOOD -- it was also the name of the old New York Central Railroad coach yard that was behidn Cardinal Hayes High School. (I can still remember the bruises on my head from the priests pitching erasers at me as I watched the trains....)
They should take off every other 149th Street sign - and also on 138th Mott haven.
138th St/GC still has its "MH" tile mosaics.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yeah, I remember those. Does 149th still have "M"'s on the bands?
That's on the 2/5 level right?
Don't recall, haven't been there in a while.
The only reason I remember the "MH" mosaics is that you can see them from a passing 4 train.
Peace,
ANDEE
I don't recall ever seeing any "M" mosaics at 149th Street/Mott Avenue.
Probably to avoid confusion with the Far Rockaway Line's 'A' train terminal of Mott Avenue (including same spelling).
Probably to avoid confusion with the Far Rockaway Line's 'A' train terminal of Mott Avenue (including same spelling).
Wow! There must be some prize jackasses around!
Hahahahahahahahha!!!!!!
Tears in my eyes from laughing so hard at that one, James!
But it's true, some people probably WOULD confuse it. They're the same people who could find their arse with both hands in a room full of mirrors.
I have to admit, I laughed pretty hard at that one also. I could just see those fools getting off at the Underground Bronx "Mott Ave" station and saying, "Grab your Boogie Boards, We're at the Beach"!
lmao good one.
Reminds me of all those Bugs Bunny cartoons where Bugs makes a "wrong turn at Albuquerque, New Mexico" and Daffy Duck comes flying out of the "subway" yelling "Miami Beach, here I come" and ends up diving into a pile of sand .....
--Mark
I tawt I thaw a putty cat.
Peace,
ANDEE
Th-Th-Th-That's all folks!
While they grow posteriors and pretty much everything else larger in TEXAS, Noo Yawk does have its own fertile grounds as well. Everybody's got a sidewalk act and some of them are worth dropping coin in a hat for. :)
It was left alone for the same reason you can find all the other 'oddities' in the system - so we would all have something to talk about. :-)
The best "oddity" I just heard about here on another thread is the G line's Broadway station. Someone said one of the name tablets mosaics say "Brodaway". Anyone have a photo of it? It had to be done when they built the line....someone was drinking on the job......
And isn't there a sign somewhere that says Mabison?
there was. The contractor fixed this error and one on the next tablet with the wrong size "I" I finally got a contractor that listened and told them they ould just chisel out the wrong tile and replace it with a red one. Those errors were at Penn on the IND downtown Local Platform.
Brodaway? The pix is on forgotten-NY. I saw Kevin on a tour and asked him to shoot the photo. Incidentally- it was a supervisor that told me aboutr Brodaway~
I'm impressed, so you are personally responsible for the change at Penn. Where the ones at Penn on the original tiles or a "repro" when they redid the station...any photos anywhere?
I dont think so. I did tell a bunch of supervisors. They were new tiles in tablets that did not exist priopr to the renovation. When the station was originally built, Madison Square Garden was not at that location. MSG came when Penn was demolished and the current thtree underground level station (Main, Lower, and Track Levels) was built.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Subway%20signs%2C%20outdated/oldsigns.html
Pretty Neat, it also has Hoyt-Schermerhorn that says "Hoyt", "Wall Street" and "Franklin" obviously from some movie that was filmed there at some point. Are the "movie signs" still on the wall at Hoyt? I wonder what movie that was from.
There is also a "Spring Street" fake tiling along that wall. I believe that one is from "Law & Order".
Damn, another station I have to get over to, to check this out.
Actually, that's my picture (as are a few others in that section -- the C/K at 96th and the "vavle" at 72nd (now gone thanks to the rehab)). About a year ago I posted a batch of photos of signage errors around the system -- I'd tell you to search the archives for it, but I have no idea what you should search for.
Just about any movie made in NYC the last 15-20 years showing a scene on a subway platform has been made at Hoyt. Crocadile Dundee. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Pelham 123 (both versions), Warriors and so forth.
And some of the signs are still on the wall!
The original Pelham 1-2-3 wasn't shot at Hoyt, it was shot at Court Street and the tunnels leading to it before Court became the Transit Museum. Also, the subway scene in Crocodile Dundee (at the end of the movie) is not Hoyt, its the lower 9th Avenue station in Brooklyn. Look closely and you can see the "9" mosaics in the background, even though the scene supposedly took place at 59th Street-Columbus Circle.
Wasn't the second 1-2-3 shot in the Toronto subway?
The original Pelham 1-2-3 wasn't shot at Hoyt, it was shot at Court Street and the tunnels leading to it before Court became the Transit Museum. Also, the subway scene in Crocodile Dundee (at the end of the movie) is not Hoyt, its the lower 9th Avenue station in Brooklyn. Look closely and you can see the "9" mosaics in the background, even though the scene supposedly took place at 59th Street-Columbus Circle.
Wasn't the second 1-2-3 shot in the Toronto subway?
I'll agree with you that Pelman 1-2-3 wasn't filmed at Hoyt. But the tunnel to Court St is in the neighbothood.
But I have to disagree with you about Dundee. The scene I'm think about is where he scares off a mugger with a knife by pulling out a bigger knife from his belt. The scene ends with 2 Chinese tourists thinking he his Clint Eastwood. The tile in the background is green. I don't think 9th Ave have the same tile.
Dundee was definitely filmed at lower 9th Ave.
See here for that and more movies
Someone asked me about the c.1950 plans for an IRT Utica Avenue Line, and I don't think I replied.
It would have gone from the existing IRT Brooklyn Line down Utica to Flatbush, then Flatbush to Avenue U. You couldn't taken the IRT to Kings Plaza!
That may have been me in post 372744.
Was this similar to the 1968 plan?
Was this similar to the 1968 plan?
No. The post-WWII plan had a separate Utica Avenue subway to Flatbush/U and extended Nostrand to Sheepshead Bay.
The 1968 plan would turned Nostrand under (over?) Flatbush and gone that way to Flatbush/U.
I knew there was something planned in the original design of Utica Ave but didn't know where it was to go. I had heard that the proposed line would have left and entered the system via the 2 tracks that dead end south of the station. Upper level they use for relays on the 4, the track if I remember slopes downward as you approach the bumping block. Strange. Lower level track they use for a L/U, reverse move. These 2 tracks end very close to the portal of the New Lots line. If my assumption is correct of the proposed line to use these 2 tracks, then wouldn't the proposed line have to sharply curve back toward Utica Ave. since Utica Ave. is back where the station is or was there another arrangement? This plan must have really died since the IND Second System planned to use Utica Ave. also. Any corrections, help or info is appreciated. Thanks again.
This plan must have really died since the IND Second System planned to use Utica Ave. also.
The serious discussion of IRT Utica Avenue was from c.1947 onward, after IND Second System was dead.
Details here:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=55768&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/20/2002
(no subscription required)
Finally sat down with the paper over lunch and looked over the expenses and revenue figures - $900,000 expenses, $119,000 revenues, Bruno says it will pay for itself. I just don't get it. Anyone who's into math and spreadsheets will LOVE this little ditty ...
I wonder how much the parking revenues will bring in -- and how much per car per day they will have to charge to cover the c. $750-800K per year gap in the P & L statement. How big is that parking lot?
Not all THAT big, and they've already set the price at $5.00 per day per car. Like I indicated, even Arthur Andersen couldn't make THESE numbers work. Hell, even if they put in GAMBLING tables, I don't see this station making its nut.
Oops. Our posts "crossed in the mail." If it's not that big and they're only charging $5, I agree that they have just a tiny little problem.
Let's say the lot holds 100 cars. 100 cars x 5 days x 50 weeks x $10 gives you $250,000.00. Of course if the lot is bigger or the mkt will bear more than $10/day for parking in that area. . .
They've never disclosed quite how many that I'm aware of, and I'm too busy to head out there and count. FWIW, parking at the EXISTING Amtrak station is free so there's going to be MUCH whining about the five bucks from the locals here. Five dollars is real money to us upstaters so I imagine there will actually be a DROP in the number of parked cars except of course for state fleet vehicles since many of the passengers in and out of there are staties. So the taxpayers will pick up that $5 in a number of situations since the state reimburses employees for those costs. Also "Maiden Lane" operates many of the state's parking lots so they know the drill also.
Going to be QUITE interesting how this all peels out since CDTA can barely afford to keep their busses running without this boondoggle. Sure the existing Amtrak station is butt ugly - if it weren't for Joe Bruno's incessant need for personal monuments though, I'm sure Garden State Brickface could have turned the existing station into something quite suitable without pouring all this money down a hole and for years to come, or trying to shake down a bankrupt railroad either. And to add insult to injury, we're about to go down this road again with yet ANOTHER Bruno monument to be built in Saratoga with the exact same issues again and far fewer riders.
The numbers just don't add up though, and frankly I just don't see how they ever will.
Come on now guys. It's a beautiful station with an apparently jaw-dropping view of the Albany skyline. I'm sure that Capital District locals will be lining up just for the opportunity to drop $5 and admire the view. Maybe even head inside the station and grab a cup of over-price coffee.
All this talk by SelkirkTMO about being too busy. Yeah right. I'll bet he's down there admiring the view right now.
CG
Have you ever SEEN the Albany "skyline?" It's not bad mind ya, but if you recall those "proposed replacement WTC drawings" there was a replica of it as "number one" ... the Empire State Plaza looks like a white-painted submarine pen. :)
But I think I'll go down to the bus station and spit, flick boogers and pick my nose instead. Heh. At least there's COFFEE at the bus station.
Check your email, Kevin! A brand-new (as of 5:00PM yesterday) Enron math story is coming your way!
-Robert King
Hotmail problems, check soon! I won't post it here because it's way, way, way, way off topic.
I got your mention of the TTC casino, but if you've sent anything else, Microsoft done ate it on ya. :)
That would be on topic but what you were supposed to get was totally off topic (for Subtalk, but bang on for Enron math) and eaten by Microsoft. Incidentally, Bill Gates was just down the street at the Capitol movie event theatre winning some Braille prize from the CNIB tonight. I know I've been busy with work but I must have missed something - what has he done for blind people?
For the benefit of everybody else here, the 'TTC Casino' business was the idea of one notoriously bright individual on a Toronto mailing list who sent out a message suggesting that the TTC build a casino on top of a subway station and use the proceeds to ease their financial woes. 'We now return you to the regularly scheduled real world, now in progress...'
Try your email now, Kevin, according to Hotmail it just successfully sent it out.
-Robert King
Got it, and as promised won't repeat it to anyone. And as to casinos and trains, I've been recommending for QUITE a while now that video poker keno lotto could be installed in many subway cars with LED and LCD signage that would make some extra money for the TA, thus averting a fare hike. But nobody listens to me. :)
it would work until they realize...put some gum up the payout slot to trap the quarters just like on payphones and people stop playing.
Nah, Division of the lottery is WAY ahead of that scam. You'd have to swipe your Metrocard (now a "credit card") between your knees on the seat. "A Metrocard and a dream" or as far as the subway cars go, "you've gotta be *IN* it to win it or the doors won't open." :)
Easy.... In the first year you book the revenues you anticipate to earn over the life of the lease - say 1,119,000 (assuming a 10 year lease) then deduct the 900,000 expenses -- instant 219,000 profit...
In the second year - well who cares about that - take your bonus and RUN...
You might want to put your resume in with Senator Joe. :)
I don't see why the opening of this station would cause me to choose an airplane instead of a train if I would go to Albany.
But in any case, neither of those are the preferred mode of travel I would use to Albany.
Heh. We pissed away MILLIONS on airport improvements ... and while it DID bring in Southwest, all the "ekernomic devellerment" we were promised never materialized. But it IS a PRETTY airport which an actual EXHIBIT SPACE for "art" ... but we got sold a pricey bill of goods there that we're paying through the TEETH for. The Amtrak station ... well ... that's got Joe Bruno's fingerprints on (sure hope the FBI got a copy, RICO and all) it. There just ISN'T the need for it to be the CATHEDRAL Joey built. GOLD DOME and all. Why? When the train arrives in Rensselaer, the secondary ARMPIT of upstate (Troy is the PRIMARY but no trains, planes or automobiles there) the first thing ANYBODY wants to do after stepping off is get the hell out of town and to wherever they intended to get to. (hint: Rensselaer is *NOT* a tourist attraction)
I mean, if the GREYHOUND terminal wasn't in Albany (not in Joey's district) then let's turn the Albany city bus terminal into yet another porcine (no offense) Boondoggle Taj Mahal (at least it's in the CAPITOL CITY even if we spell it "Capital!") with gold accoutrements and a roving art museum and street musicians? Nope, won't be branded like baseball stadiums and other pork as "The JOE BRUNO BUS TERMINAL and boogerfest." Sheesh. :)
By the way, what "preferred mode of transit?" Surely you haven't fallen for Joe Bruno's *NEXT* trick, the even more expensive than the second avenue subway and thus Rensselaer (HIS district) MUST kill the second avenue subway (just like "evil rent control in NYC") to pay for the (rim shot, please) "CYBERTRAIN?" to run us from his abusement park to a REAL "city?" Surely you'll want to ride the ...
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/cybertrannews.htm
Booooowaaahahahahaha ...
This Joe Bruno character just has to be shot.
Or maybe burned at the stake...
But not before he gets rid of rent control once and for all.
Heh. Well, there's some secrets about the boy that cannot be told that I'm QUITE well aware of from some ex-firemen who moved out of Joey's district that don't ever want to be revealed. Unca Joey's a PERV, into "whips and chains" like most "discipline-oriented" personae (no dancing, blue curtains, the rest of the perv act) ... Senator "Whips'n'chains" will get his comeuppance even if you gotta be Catholic to believe it will eventually happen.
But for now, "hairboy" gets all he wants, at everyone else's expense. If you don't live in Rensselaer county, then he's already slipped it to ya. And those who DO live in his district will get theirs too. Eventually. In trailerpark land, they LOVE him. The rest of us who have to foot his bills are MIGHTY unhappy. If someone DOES "off him" there'll be not one tear shed here in Albany county.
Back in the Bronx, we had several words for Senator Hairball ... "disgratiata" ... "mute vamm" ... (thumb, lower teeth, "feh") ... "foongots" ... but hey, three cheers for the old style Rockefeller LIBERAL Republican party that screwed everybody and nobody danced or came. Largesse dispensed, IF you put out. :)
LOOK
Chill it.
I happen to like boondoogles, as long as Amtrak isn't paying for it. The Albany Station is actucally a piece of far-sighted infrastructure investment. So long as Federal dollars are coming into the state, it's a good thing. I just don't expect Amtrak to pay for it. I don't know if CDTA bought bonds or whether they got all Federal funding. Well even if they bought bonds out of state funds, it's probably still a good way to keep the money flowing round. Regional Economic Development and all that. I love spending somebody else's money. So long as it isn't mine or Amtrak's.
AEM7
Selkirk,
I'll gladly take a neutral stand on this, and not choose sides. But in the grand scheme of things, not many people down here know who Joe BRUNO is. They probably are more familiar with BRUNO Sammartino !!!
Moooooooooooooooooooo.........(body slam)...........ow !
Bill "Newkirk"
Yeah, guess you noticed I've got a thing about Joey ... he's messed up my life several times and caused a great amount of harm in the area here, but there's just no point in complaining, he's running unopposed so he'll be re-elected again, soviet style no matter what. But that man REALLY riles me. You don't see me going off about anyone else like Joey. He gets my rump in the air that fast with the mere mention of his name.
Just remind AEM7 that someone's else dough happens to be yours and mine...don't you just LOVE the Empire State?
The Empire State...where the mob learns to keep it gangster from the politicians:)
Time to move. Bay State offers better employment, economy, and smaller backyard.
I'm soon outta here too. There are way better places than Empire State and Bay State. Keystone State is almost as bad, but Buckeye State isn't all that bad, and both Prairie and Hoosier States are real nice...
AEM7
I've just realized that I've always lived on the I-90 corridor. Must be something with me and that road. Well or you could say the New York Central. I've always lived on the New York Central System.
Then I could harass the Commonwealth to bring rail to the Cape.
But New York is too much fun to leave. Watching politics is USUALLY cheaper than going to the theater and the acting is almost as genuine:)
"But in the grand scheme of things, not many people down here know who Joe BRUNO is."
That's bad. If he weren't majority leader of the Senate, us downstaters could conveniently forget about him. Unfortunately, he's one of the triumvirate who runs the state. His pork isn't that bad for us (not that it's good, but divide the cost of the new Rensselaer station among all taxpayers and it won't kill us), but the ral problem is the things that are positive for NYC that he blocks.
The OTHER thing that would behoove downstaters to pay more attention to this boy is that he's MORE POWERFUL than the Governor. In other words if the governor wants something, gets the finished bill on his desk to sign and Joey doesn't like something, Pataki won't sign the bill for fear of the Joey.
Given Joey's neverending screwage of the state, I submit that Senate Majority leader in THIS state SHOULD be a state-wide elected office because of the sheer POWER of the office. He can overrule the governor and often does. That just ain't right.
Last thought before I go to sleep after one hell of a long day - check out the link in the previous, think "Woody Allen, in SLEEPER" and then hold these thoughts I've posted (I'm done on this whole "pork and politicos" thing, really) ... and MARK my words. This CRAP is what the state money has been thrown away on. Come January when the "2003 FY Budget" comes out along with all the layoffs and firings of people who do things USEFUL to the taxpayers (like motorpeople, conductors, unemployment clerks, et al) remember what your politicos blew the wad on. Maybe THEN you'll be peeved, after the elections are over and done with. Maybe you'll see why (I knowing the game and knowing the future numbers now from friends still working for the state) I've been going into all this nonsense as things that MATTER get cut because this nonsense continues now, even with an election looming. Moo. :)
Nighty! Heh.
Was at a Ruby Tuesaday's in New Britian CT on Saturday and streatched out along the wall was a BMT Roll Sign. 14th Street, Sea Beach Express, Culver, etc. You can bet I educated the girl at the bar as to the significance of it !
Great tip! Now she'll take it down and sell it on eBay. ;-)
I saw some R1-R9 number plates at a Charlie Brown's restaurant in Denville, NJ. They were gone the last time I was there.
I saw an old map (I'm pretty sure it was a copy) of the Central RR of LI in an Applebee's restaurant. I think it was in Bethpage.
I saw an old station sign from 125th Street in a Bar/Restaurant in California a few years back. I forgot the name of the place.
I also always find it neat going to "Subway" (sandwich store). I've been in "Subway" in California, and in Florida, and many other locations, and it's really neat seeing New York Subway maps wallpapering the walls. They even have the old Myrtle el on the maps.
That 125th Street sign....could you have visited a pizza place in either Westwood or downtown Los Angeles? (La Monica's is the name, both locations are heavily decorated with NYC subway memorabilia.)
That 125th Street sign....could you have visited a pizza place in either Westwood or downtown Los Angeles? (La Monica's is the name, both locations are heavily decorated with NYC subway memorabilia.)
It's very possible. It was when I was in the Anaheim, Hollywood, and Los Angeles area. It was about 8 years ago and don't think it was a pizza parlor, but I don't remember for sure. Unfortunately I don't remember the location or the name of the place. Is La Monica's also a bar? For some reason I thought I remember it being a bar/restaurant (but it also could have been a "dark" pizza place. It definitely wasn't just a bar, because I ate dinner there. Maybe it was that place.
There is a Cozzoli's at one of our shopping malls in metro Denver which had a New York subway spaghetti wall map. Don't know if it's still there; it's been a while since I've been there.
>>There is a Cozzoli's at one of our shopping malls in metro Denver which had a New York subway spaghetti wall map.<<
Spaghetti map ? You must mean the "Picasso" map. If Pablo Picasso were alive today, he'd be the only one who could understand it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Spaghetti, Picasso, take your pick. It's one of the first multicolored maps put out by the MTA.
I must be one of the very few who actually LOVED that map. You could tell where trains went. Sure beat all hell out of everything being red or green. :)
Nah, I liked the other colored maps prior to colors for lines.
Red [IND], Blue [IRT] and Golden Yellow [BMT]. So I'm a seasoned
person. They was readable.
;-) Sparky
Actually I think the current map is a very good system. The "all different" colors map was very confusing, and as for the original one with the green, red, etc - no one cares really what used to be IRT, IND, etc (except for railfans) - and it really doesn't matter anymore (even though it was very readable).
I think the different colors for each trunk line is a very user friendly system. For example, with an orange train you'll know that at some point it will be on 6th Ave. Sure, I'm sure lots of people don't know what the color system is, or how it works, but it is a very readable map, even if you don't know what the colored "trunk" system is.
Heh. Black, red and green, dotted or not. I guess ya had to be there. But I actually liked the "psychedlic map" and the big big front route signs. You could tell if it was an F, an E, a D or an A from three stops up the railroad back then. Now it's like a contest and you don't find out what it is until it's in the station. Ain't no fun. As marker lights fell out of favor, the bright colors of the rainbow were an almost acceptable substitute.
But now, in the name of progress, whatever it is and wherever it's running, it's going to be bright red. No matter where you are. :)
>>Sure beat all hell out of everything being red or green. :)<<
You gotta be kidding ! That early 60's map was my favorite. And when they added some more color for the '64 World's Fair, that made it better.
The 1968 and 69 were my second favorites, although routes had a different color, it was still easy to read.
Now the "Picasso" map (1974), the route colors in Manhattan were blended together like a rainbow of sorts. That's why they were so hard to read.
The current maps are very good and imformative. The worst map I've ever seen was an old IRT map where Manhattan is positioned horizontal as opposed to verticle.
Bill "Newkirk"
YES! It was the 68/69 maps that I remember with favor. I *left* the city in '74, so chances are I survived ever seeing the final basketization of it. But the "psychedelic" maps I refer to are the ones that were active in my days with the "ta" ... and the route signs matched the colors, making it a truly happy ta for most.
As they have it now with all the trains being the same color on the TRUNK line is actually pretty useless in my eyes. The old maps helped you figure out which train to take to get to the outer boroughs, it was easy to see what was local or express, the current maps ... ack.
I've been in "Subway" in California, and in Florida, and many other locations, and it's really neat seeing New York Subway maps wallpapering the walls.
It's neat and a bit odd seeing those bars over here in da UK. I've spent quite a long time in one, because the terminus of a very infrequent bus I use is right outside the doors and standing around outside at 10pm in January is not fun!
What's really strange is going into the "Subway" sandwich shop in the main RR station in Montréal - they have the usual wallpaper, and then they have a large sign giving the English-French translation of the street names. All this in a relatively tiny place. (We were there two years ago.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Excuse-moi, monsieur. Pour aller à la Place de l'Hérault, s'il vous plaît?
Uh-Oh, here we go again: Canadian vs Canadien.
Whadda ya think I could get for an original, genuine BMT incandescent canopy light fixture which I pilfered from Queens Blvd on the old J in 1987? I'd actually use the thing in my basement if I could find those reverse threaded bulbs.
I don't know if you should say you PILFERED it too loud. What if the MTA finds out? Would you have an interest in selling it? :o)
FISHBOWL is right, use the word -sparingly-
Peace,
ANDEE
Really.....
The word is LIBERATED.....
If only those stations signs were smaller....
Do you have a picture? I would guess low 3 figures if it's interesting looking, unless someone really really wants it.
No picture. It's somewhat beat up, but still in relatively good shape. I really want to keep it and make it work, but I can't find a standard incandescent socket to fit the thing. It's a three-way fixture, made for three bulbs, which probably sat above one of the exiting stairwells.
Oh, I understand what it is that you have.
Sorry, I'm not sure what that would fetch because it probably doesn't say "BMT" or something which would connect it to a collectible history kind of thing for most people.
I would have loved to have one of the old lamp posts, in my yard, that they had at stations like these:
Most have them have been replaced with modern posts or repro posts.
I would say that you could get 3 to 5 years for stealing TA property and another couple for selling stolen property.
LOL. And tresspassing on an abandoned elevated structure. Should I turn myself in now, or wait for the inevitable showdown with the police?
Nah,
Just give yourself 50 lashings with a wet MetroCard, say 20 "Hail RedBirds" and 10 "Our Turnstiles".
Go in peace, young railfan.
(If my Rabbi ever saw that - he'd plotz).
:) :) :)
If it consisted of white letters on black canvas, it probably came from a BMT standard.
I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of those "Know Trains at a Glance" signs prominently displayed on BMT Southern Division station platforms prior to Chrystie St.
Hey, don't feel bad...all the way out here in southern California, one of the chain restaurants (TGI Friday's at their South Coast Metro location) has the BMT handrail piping and swinging handles from one of the Standards suspended from the ceiling in their men's room.
You can hold the handles with one hand and.....you get the drift!!
(I think the handles are there more so drunks don't fall into the urinals while relieving themselves....)
I love that response. I got a real chuckle out of it. I needed that.
And of course there is always Golden's deli in Staten Island.
the tgifriday's has some sort of transit sign that says "BLUE ISLAND". where is blue island anyway.
>>the tgifriday's has some sort of transit sign that says "BLUE ISLAND". where is blue island anyway.<<
Chicago.
Bill "Newkirk"
Holy crap!! I had no idea that that place existed. Next time I'm passing through Staten Island I'm going to make it a point to stop in. BTW, do you know the number of the car?
Somewhat related - in downtown Montreal, on St Catherine's Street, there was a restaurant called the 'Tramway' filled with streetcar memorabilia. (I saw it in '94, so I can't say for sure whether it's still there.) What was very striking was the entrance door, which was a dead ringer for an old 4-leaf trolley door (it opened in halves). Does anyone know if this gem is still around?
Yes, that is pretty cool!
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the car number of the R-9 car at Golden's Restaurant in Staten Island?
Hello Mr. NotchIt,
Do you know the car number of the R-9 at Golden's Restaurant in Staten Island?
Thanks.
Don't know the number offhand, but will check it next time I go there.
If I remember correctly, in the Waterfront Crabhouse in LI City, they had an automatic signal from the BMT. Don't remember the number and it's been years since I was there last.
Ok, I'm trying to find any info here - does anyone ever recall the LIRR experimenting with Automated Fare Collection, noteably at Kew Gardens or Forest Hills? Domeone in another forum mentioned it, but I had not heard of this before. Anyone know if it was in fact done, and what the results where?
I don't have any specific knowledge of such, and I think (my own very high opinion of myself) that I've been pretty up-to-date on LIRR operations over the last 20 years or so.
The Forest Hills station in particular would seem to lend itself very well to this type of set-up -- especially westbound where Woodside and Penn Station have the same fare. Perhaps they did something back when the US Open tennis tournament was played at Forest Hills?
CG
I can't tell you about any results or the dates, but it WAS done somethime in the early 1960's from what I remember. By the late 1960's, I was becoming well-versed in the LIRR and don't remember hearing about it then -- only read about it in the papers, etc.
In 1965 when the Illinois Central Electric (now Metra)first deployed an AFC built by Litton, the brochures mentioned that LIRR was istalling the same system. In the case of the IC they were trying to eliminate ticket sellers and 'punch agents' at stations. results were mixed. There is still a mag stripe ticket used, but some agents are staffed.
The front page of the Science section has a picture of a pre-GOH R-32, signed as a D. Naturally, someone's at the railfan window.
I'm afraid the picture doesn't seem to be online.
What story is the picture linked to in the paper (or did some railfan manage to get ahold of the Quark program at the Times and just put an R-32 on the front page of Science Times just for the heck of it?)
The title of the article is "Forget Nature. Even Eden Is Engineered." Here's a scan of the relevant section:
Hmmm, is it just my imagination, or does that photograph look uncannily similar to this one by Joe Testagrose, down to the two kids at the railfan window?
I think I'll contact Joe and ask him if he knows anything about this.
Good observation....I'm gonna have to say that's the same photo. What are the chances that the kids just happen to be in the same position if they were two different photos.
Thanks for the scan.
BTW -- Didn't the Times get caught pilfering some stuff off Dave's website last year (track maps, IIRC) without giving proper credit?
BTW -- Didn't the Times get caught pilfering some stuff off Dave's website last year (track maps, IIRC) without giving proper credit?
It wasn't the Times ... as far as I can recall, it was either the Philadelphia Inquirer or the Washington Post.
I can't be sure from the scan, but it looks like the Times version has the bottom "headlights" lit, and the Joe version has the top headlights lit.
If we could get a higher resolution scan it would be easier to tell. But I have to agree that everything else...the marker lights, the open doors, the kids, being signed as a D, and even the light projecting onto the platform from the doors....all look pretty much the same. I doubt it's a coincedence.
DOCTORING of fact by the NY Times? Is NOTHING sacred? No offense to the photog, but that kind of train shot is pretty much every railfan picture. Here's an odd perspective - I've noticed in trying to find visuals to create 3D objects for BVE so I could use polygons to create actual photorealistic NYCTA subway cars for use in BVE that every damned railfan picture I see is some PERSPECTIVE shot (rather than a straight on of a nose, a flat sideview or things that are USEFUL) of a train in the station. Some close, some not so close, but all the train surfaces are on an angle of some sort (rather than flat-on) that has made most pictures useless for my own purposes of creating 3D objects.
Where I'm going with my whining is that the shot is OH so typical of most pictures of an R32 in a station that it'd be hard for me to swear in court that the Times photo and the photo exhibited are the same. I see two kids pressed on the foamer glass too, but there DO seem to be differences, all other shot angles considered. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Times lifted it either (they DID have to "airbrush out" the station poles and crop out some other stuff to make it work. But publication of something "on the internet" does cause it to become "public domain" for "fair use" under copyright laws UNLESS a specific invocation of copyright is associated with the picture legally.
"From the collection of (name here)" does not constitute a claim of copyright necessarily. So the Times MIGHT have used that picture, maybe it was another one. But if it WAS the one we "think" it is, then the picture was modified which might make it yet another copyright trap, a "new creation from a derivative work." Copyright law makes my tummy ache and my head hurt. :)
Hey Kev! How the heck is a kid taking shots in the subway suppose to get a head-on shot? He'd have to be standing in the roadway! Geez, that's all we need are railfans going down to the roadbed and delaying service so they can get some keepers....not to mention possible 12-9's...adding to the list of criminal activity of our yut ;-)
I have one "head on" shot of a train pulling into the station, and that's on the 42 Street shuttle, as the train is pulling in, you can stand right in front of it (on the platform). I'm sure there are other spots where you can get an actual "head-on" shot (anyone know of any), but I don't think there are too many places. Obviously it can only happen at some terminals, or some places where there are wicked curves, and you zoom in.
Not many...and we recently lost a nice head-on location at Flatbush Avenue when the TA put up some stupid 'Stop' signs with huge backboards at the southern end of the station.
This won't last long either ast the station is being ripped apart, and it wasn't too long that it was possible even when it was, but for a while the J train terminated on at Canal St on the "express" track of the Queens-bound platform on the weekends. I'm talking quite a few years back, and thankfully, they extended it to Chambers Street. I never took advantage of that shot, but could've stood right at the end of the center stub track and taken a "head-on" shot of the J pulling into the station.
Both the track and the wraparound platform are gone now.
But is this what you're looking for?
I wonder what the time frame for the abandonment of the Queens-bound platforms at Bowery and Canal street is. I was there about 2 months ago last. How far are they with the track realignment? If the track and the crossover platform is now gone, is the wall that they will be breaking through also gone yet? When do they plan to abandon the Queens-bound platform?
I don't think the wall's gone yet, but I was last there a few days after the connecting platform was closed. I may pass through again today -- I'll keep my eyes open.
I think after Sept 11 it might have been put off for a while. With the N and R lines cut off last year, J and M trains made the trips to/from Brooklyn. Maybe after South Ferry reopens later this year maybe there'll be talk about Canal and Bowery being rebuilt.
The area at the south end of the station is boarded up and heavy work is obviously underway.
They are in the process of doing it though. The work is progress at Canal Street. At Bowery there's not much to do - just turn out the lights on the Queens-bound platform, and it's over. At Canal they have to send the former stub ended "express" track on the Broad Street bound side through the wall to meet the track Queens bound platform at Chambers St. I wonder what they are going to do about Chambers Street. I don't think they will be abandoning anything there.
The Canal St project has to be done whether or not they just abandon the Queens platform, or even if they send the second Ave subway through the Nassau line, the work at Canal would've been necessary.
One thing they could do at Chambers St. is to shift the n/b track over so that a train would enter the station on the n/b "express" track. It would involve knocking a hole in the wall if not putting in a short tunnel, but at least it would get rid of that sharp curve into the station and that timer. Plus such a train would only have to switch over once before Canal St. instead of twice the way it does now.
At Chambers they could actually wall off the Queens bound platform, at the platforms edge (right next to the currently unused track on the Queens bound platform). This would leave a two platform station (using the current abandoned Center platform for Queens-bound passengers) with three tracks. The then "center" track (currently the Broad street-bound "express" track) could be used for times when the J terminates at Chambers. I think it would make cleaning Chambers up a lot easier, than refurbishing the whole station, when all the extra space is not necessary anyway.
Of course they could always wall off right at the Center platform, leaving only the current Broad St bound platform and two tracks, which may suffice, but I feel the above proposal is better.
I really feel they should do one or the other (especially because they are doing it at Canal and Bowerey anyway) instead of attempting to refurbish the whole station, which is a disaster. The center platform and the remaining local side platform will never be used again anyway.
Work is underway. As of last Friday the end of the platform (the end where you could walk to the other side) was closed and on the side to be closed (unrenovated side_ there is a plywood wall down the middle of the platform.
Hmm, I got to get over there. Is the plywood along the whole "soon to be abandoned" platform? I assume blocking of the "express" track?
Yes. It is blocking the "express" Track.
Just an idea, but a good one: Convert Chambers, Canal, and Bowery into a two track main line, each with a center isle platform. Convert the newly out of service side of Chambers St. into the Manhattan branch of the NYC transit museum. You'd have two tracks, two isle platforms, and a side platform. Thats plenty of room for exhibits and rolloing stock. Now heres where the plan gets really good. Unlike the facility at Court St, museum customers would actually be able to ride the vintage cars from Chambers, through Canal, to Bowery. Both Canal and Bowery would have island platforms with more exhibits. If you really wanted to do it up, extend the museum's trackage through Bowery to the trolley depot at Essex, and use it as the transfer it was intended to be, with streetcar and historic bus stock on display.
YES!!!
Very cute.
Build it!
I think it's a cute idea. The truth is half the Nassau line is soon to be abandoned, although I don't believe they are planning to do it at Chambers Street, although they should. I still feel they should put a wall up to wall off the current Queens bound platform leaving the center platform to become the new Queens bound platform.
Unfortunately, that's harder to do than you may think. The four tracks at Chambers don't line up with the four tracks at Canal -- a through train on the NB track at Chambers first crosses two tracks to the left to avoid the former bridge leads, and then, just before Canal, swings back to the right (and that swing will be eliminated soon). The middle tracks south of Chambers descend to a pair of layup tracks and that's it. For your plan to work, the NB track out of Fulton would have to be connected to the layup track.
But I like the idea!
One problem.........where's the money for this coming from ?
Bill "Newkirk"
If you'd be willing to trade us something for Joe Bruno, it'll be open in three years. :)
OK, so I guess I'm an idiot/idealist. I didn't think it would take that much money to turn currently in use operable trackage into operable museum trackage. I also thought the museum itself might have some money/interest in getting into Manhattan, and being a more complete/comprehensive museum. I think that it's already rediculous that I have to go to Maine or CT. to ride a classic NY subway car through the woods. Once all the Canal and Bowery trackage (and maybe Chambers) gets freed, it's too good an opportunity to run classic cars where they were intended to run. Stupid me for thinking the museum and it's backers might see it that way.
They could turn that stretch into a Twilight Zone in addition to a museum by running vintage equipment as a attraction.
I think it's a good idea. Since Bowery and Canal will be half abandoned, and Chambers could be half abandoned (although I don't think they plan that right now), you will have basically a three station abandoned subway line! They could store the museum trains on one track, and run a train back and forth on the other. At Chambers they have a mezzanine that can be partly abandoned to "real" subway traffic, and used for exhibits and as the main entrance and main area of the museum. They could abandon the Queens bound platform, and put a wall up at the edge of the center platform, leaving the Chambers JMZ station as a two tracked island platform station (the current Broad street bound platform).
So the Transit Museum's main facility would have two wall platforms (what's left of the current center platform after they put the wall up at it's edge, and the current abandoned wall platform) and an Island platform (the current Queens platform).
Now tell me that wouldn't make a nice tourist attraction, right in the middle of Lower Manhattan.
the whole idea is brilliant. Having an operating presence downtown would be fantastic.
Well, since the Transit Museum is run by the MTA, don't count on it having any spare cash to do anything, or any real interest other than protecting the jobs of a large number of people, most of whom don't do anything. I'm still ticked at them for refusing to refund a substantial amount of money that I paid for tours that were cancelled... only vouchers good only on other tours that I had no interest in or had already taken. Even vouchers good on purchases at the museum store would have been acceptable, but they wouldn't even do that.
OK, enough ranting... three years later and it's still a sore subject with me!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But unlike the rest of the MTA, the museum takes donations ;)
I'm still a little urinated off with them, too. I joined so I could get free admission to the museum -- about two weeks before the renovations were announced.
Like this?
Is this one close enough? (Paging Sea Beach Fred!)
Or this?
Yeah, I was thinking of Stillwell, and Rockaway Parkway. I think you can also get an head end M train at Metropolitan from a little catwalk on the KMart side.
BTW where did you take that photo of the N train? It looks as if you are right on the express track!
BTW where did you take that photo of the N train? It looks as if you are right on the express track!
That's precisely where I am -- at the window of an R-32.
Okay, that makes sense (even though you weren't riding the NX train!). Luckily, you got a clean unscratched window. That's getting harder and harder. Any time I had the opportunity for a nice shot like that, the window was trashed.
I found a small spot on the window that wasn't scratched and wasn't terribly dirty, and I tried to hold the camera over that spot. My other results weren't so great; they look somewhat like old, faded prints from the 60's:
Looks as if that express track gets a lot of usage due to GOs. Look at those shiny rails!
David, you're a gentlemen and a scholar. When I logged on a minute ago, I quickly scanned the page but instantly your post caught my eye. You've got my day off to a rousing Sea Beach start. Thanks buddy; I guess you are fully aware as others are that I am an unreconstructed Sea Beach fanatic.
Dave, those are some cool shots. When I first saw the original shot it was hard to tell where you took the photo from! It didn't look like you took it through a window.
These photos are great. Keep up the good work.
You'll have to convince the TA to run that GO again. I can't get those pictures off a W train -- it has to be the N itself running express.
That was the second day of PC Expo. I almost decided not to go that day after doing all that riding. I'm glad I changed my mind, since that's the day I won the Palm drawing.
Here are two more Sea Beach shots:
Don't tell me the Q was running on the N line as well.
That weekend, the Q was running one way via the Sea Beach and the other way via the West End:
The W itself wasn't running at all and the N was only running in Queens. Brighton service was handled by a shuttle train between Stillwell and Prospect Park and a shuttle bus between Prospect Park and Atlantic.
I think that should be *#4* Sea Beach Fred.
Thanks. I remember reading about that GO now.
I'm sure there are other spots where you can get an actual "head-on" shot (anyone know of any),
Stillwell Avenue, "W" platform, near the elevator at the far south end.
--Mark
Can't you do that at Main St./Flushing too?
Peace,
ANDEE
Issues of perspective and making actual photos are two different things. He said he need ed thus and such kind of photo to make the program work, not that you should go out and take them.
Actually from an artistic point of view, head on and side on elevations are rather boring, and would not be taken by an artist, but only by a technician who wanted such a photo.
Elias
Not true. Seen any of my head-on shots? Actually, recently in TRAINS there was a foto of a Metro North FL-9. That was really pretty impressive -- shows the FL-9 running at speed into the camera, the NH lettering was clear but the rest of the train is motion-blurred. The track was crystal clear however.
AEM7
Absolutely ... and your description of the esthetics is absolutely correct, and using the shots for the purpose of contructing a graphic was the reason I had been hoping to find such. I'm sure it would have been something real world modellers would also find useful.
One of the NICEST shots I've ever seen of an R32 was this one by Dave Pirrman:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r32/r32-3359.jpg
Who also did a shot of precisely what I had been looking for:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r32/r32-3922.jpg
Neither one of those are my photos. They are slides from my collection.
You can get A Division head on shots of the 4/5 coming southbound into Union Square -- just stand on the east side of the downtown platform with an 35-105 lens and wait, they'll turn for you (if they don't, all the newspapers will be down there about 30 minutes later with their cameras...)
Heh. Yeah, a long shot. I suppose pooking a camera through the fencing on the edge of a yard wouldn't do. Don't mind me though, I was just whining about how hard it is to find good front on shots. They can also be bagged if you're at the right place on a platform with a curve leading into it and good timing. (I've seen a few good front on shots entering Smith 9th)
But no, last thing I'd encourage is trackside front-on shots. You'd have to deal with the perspective errors of that looming roofline too. One of the first things I noticed in school car was just how BIG subway cars actually are. (you don't get that perspective on size from a platform)
Okay, then, let's take a closer look:
Compare:
Do they not look identical to you?
Don't forget that R-32's haven't looked like that for a long time. It's not like the NYTimes could have sent a photographer down to the subway to get that picture today.
According to the site FAQ, "Entire original contents Copyright © 1995-2001 New York City Subway Resources. Contributed items are copyright © their respective creators. No part of this work may be copied or republished in electronic or printed form without prior approval of the respective copyright holder." Looks pretty explicit to me.
Those photos do look one and the same to me.
Those are identical.
Typical of the Times.
I hope Mr. Testagrose protests and gets a buck or two for himself.
Peace,
ANDEE
The question I have is why?
Can't the NY Times get their own photo of the subway?
Not only is that photo is not only used without giving proper credit, it is also got to be 30-35 years old.
I have the same questions. The photo is from 1969. The editor probably didn't realize that no subway car looks like that today.
If that were my photo, I'd write a letter to the Times demanding compensation. It's not my photo, so I'll let Joe decide what to do.
No, better to write to the NY Post and get them to make a scandal out of it: "White-collar newspaper rips off website hard work"
The Times is not the only one to rip off Daves site. There have been others. I guess it's all up to the integrity/transit knowledge of the writer.
I wonder if Randy Kennedy has any knowledge of this. I know he monitors this board.
Peace,
ANDEE
You know, since none of us have heard from Joe T. on the matter, it IS possible that they DID ask him.
He emailed me a few minutes ago. This is the first he's heard of it.
All the Times had to do is request a copy of a pre GOH R-32 car from the archive file of the Transit Authority and to get permission from the agency to use said photo in their newspaper. Wait a minute, they could have made the same request of Joe Testagrose and paid him reasonable compensation. Always trying to nickle and dime the little guy.
I was mistaken...the higher resolution makes it definite. Even right down to the white shirt sitting at the seat next to the first door, and the black-shirt standing right behind that.
Yep, they're the same.
wayne
Yeah, seeing the picture a bit "larger" than the original does make it look more and more like the other. With the other "station details" cropped out though, there'd still be some wiggle room for lawyers. Among one of the many things I've done in past careers was being an expert witness on doctored videotapes in court. You learn to be VERY careful about saying "yes or no" with only limited details. And yes, I've seen what they've done to the rooflines of 32's since I lived in town (shameful to the max) ... but I was reluctant to "call" that one without a bit more detail. I'm closer now to calling it, but still, there's still a small amount of uncertainty. I'd subpoena the plates before it went to litho - the truth would definitely be there.
Does anyone out there have any clue why the Bayside train station on the Pt. Wash. branch of the LIRR never got an TVM machine?...I mean this would be a great thing if they put one in and save everyone having to wait on line so many times. Great Neck has one, so why not Bayside?.....does anyone know who I can complain to or at least entertain the idea to?
In early December of this year, I will be in San Juan for vacation. Will the Tren Urbano be open to the public by this time?
Thank you.
Just testing...
-Hank
Is that PATH
WHeres that shot
That's an inbound train crossing the bridge into Newark. The gas holder is gone, the photo is 5-6 years old.
-Hank
Hey, I think I remember seeing that tank being imploded on some TLC show. At the time I had just moved to Philly, and had very little idea what PATH, the NEC and Newark Penn were. The Show made a big deal about the danger to passing trains and stuff, even though in the end nothing was injured, the building fell in on it self, really kinda cool the way they did it, it kinda accordianed into a circle of rubble. Can't remember if train service was delayed, it happened in the morning, just before or after rush hour. It musta been at least 5, or at most 15 years ago, I think I remember ALP-44s, but that coulda just been F40PHs with Comets from a distance.
Definitely PATH, heading out of Newark. The big tank is long gone.
It's by DOCK interlocking tower.
The Following is a rant about partially nonfunctioning MVM's, and features which NEVER work:
Why can't the MVM's ever take credit cards??? I've used all my cards and none of them work! The stupid thing only worked at Union Square ONCE out of the many times I have attempted to charge my metrocard. I've even been charged a grand total of nearly $110 for Metrocards I NEVER GOT! GRRRRRRR! Stupid machine ( Kicks MVM ).
Has this happened to anyone else?
All thoughts Welcome!
Can you write or type? Then write or type a letter addressed to the MTA and I'm sure they'll be glad to help you (within 4-6 business weeks ;-))...But on a serious note, dude that sucks!!
I've lost money in LIRR TVM's too, fortunately not that much!!!
I got my money back though ( THANKS AE). I am still annoyed when having to go all the way to the bank and back to the station just to get my metrocard. Why can't the MVM's do everything there supposed to?
Ten customers purchase products through a vending machine and receive nothing. Four ask for and receive refunds...the operator does discover the ten vends but only five products left the machine. Product cost is 25% of the vend. Dollar a vend...ten bucks equals 400% profit. Four refunds...loss of four bucks. Six bucks left in till. One vend unaccounted for makes $ 5.75 minus service costs. Not so simple....glad to be a Car Inspector. CI Peter
If u think MVM's are bad, LIRR TVM's will make them seem like perfection, even the new TVM's.
Credit card fraud is a crime. Making a purchase through an MVM with a credit card without receiving paid for merchandise is also a crime.
Caveot: Governmental agencies have some leeweay...not one parking meter has the mechanism to release a stuck coin. Prompt refund of lost assets to a credit card customer is a leeway...chances are that your paid-for MetroCard was jammed inside the vendor mechanism. On the other hand, a MVM or any other vending machine that repeatedly charges credit card customers faces disengagement from the banking service...whether or not it is mechanical error or deliberate fraud. Get $500 from an ATM...receive $490...fill out paperwork and you get the ten bucks. Pay $20 for a MetroCard by credit without a dime in your pockets...get nothing...and you can't go home? Make a big stink with your bank and itemise ALL expenses in detail...if you loose two hours of sleep and you get to work two hours late...YOU GET CASH plus fiftey dollars per hour of consultants fee. Did this and won a settlemrnt before court!!! Do not get me wrong...vending machines do fail and the operator/maintainance techs are not to blame BUT when you engage a credit card....a whole bunch of undisplayed rule in your favor take effect. Your bank has to cough up...small settlements in court cost thousands...and they have to fight with TA over a broken machine.
Thanks for your input OnTheJuice! Luckily AE reimbursed me with little fuss. I lost the bulk of the money at the MVM's at Castle Hill Avenue station on the 6. They are ALL lemons at that station. People get mad at the station agent who refuses to help. Long lines. All makes for an ugly scene.
Cannot expect station agent to provide cash refunds!!! MVMs are constantly monitored remotely...few can be trusted with cash access keys. A true refund requires count in/count out and comparison with cash in/EFT in with vended products (MetroCard) out. Lose a buck in a coin changer at a laundromat or bowling alley and you get refunded as a courtesy. I'll stick to the Redbirds along with an occasional SkeeBall machine. CI Peter
SkeeBall? what's that? I took a redbird 4 to moshulu from 14st. Very noisy ride. Smelly slimey blue stuff dripping from overhead A\C unit. Sticky floors, and hot air coming from the vents. Some jackass sticks red bubblegum over all but 3 windows. Not very fun ride.
Hey...your buck fiftey. Ride my Redbird after carbody service and you get a two buck ride saving fiftey cents. I work #5 and occasionally #2 lines as a troubleshooter/fill in. Did you taste the bubblegum...was it fresh??? I'm no CTA...don't clean up goo. I install new air filters in AC, change out all motor brushes, repair under license refrigerant systems, check and repair door control systems, make specific measurements of the cars electrical system, check out T/Os indication and C/Rs master door controller system and insure passenger safety. That's only one assignment I cover. Cannot comment about quality control on #4 line. I also do propulsion and braking control systems. Fix your SkeeBall too at a price.
>>I'll stick to the Redbirds along with an occasional SkeeBall machine. CI Peter<<
Skeeball ? Maybe you should be assigned at Stillwell Terminal. The Skeeball machines are nearby !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I am sorry you had MVM problems. We do not have access keys to the machines. You must call 1-212-METROCARD or 1-800-METROCARD.
We must account for every cent in our booth. Let's say it si busy and you want a $10 card and give me a ten dollar bill. We are even, but some will claim they gave you a tweny. We can either give you the extra money and if we are cheated we pay Transit ten dollars out of our pocket, or deny the excess change and risk a complaint. If bot busy we can close the winmow and count the money. We are in a lose-lsoe situation. Only if a supervisor is there and does an Audit in front of the customer and if we are on the money are we guaranteed of no complaint. Usally we will buzz them in or give them 1-2 return tickets to "get rid of the customer." (f they did cheat us still got away with more than they paid and will usually leave.
BTW- at the end of our tour, we close our report and send in the money the computer tells us to send in. If we are short, we must pay. If we are over we must send that in. Eventually, we will get a notice attached to our check stating we are over and can claim our refund by sending the amoutn due less prior overage. Of course, they check ouyr bags when they money gets to Jay Stteet. If we are short, they'll attach a note to our checkl and we must pay back the money bgy sending in the amount due plus the shortage.
If you will check the Conditions of use for metroCards and MVMs you'll see there is no guarantee AFC will work At a station or at a given machine. The conditions state a customer must call the phone number for unlimited card (or ask for an envelope) or visit 370 Jay Street and call the number for MVM problems.
You can ask the S/A to place a trouble call for the machine- being sure to give the 3 digit machine number such as machine 3456 (random number)
and the problem you had- ie lost money, etc.
NOTE: machiens only give $6 change. You put in a 20 and ask for a 10 doillar card it asks if you want a 20 dollar card.You press yes yuou have a 20 dollar card. Big problem- they dont read English, Spanish, or one of the other languiages on the MVMs.
What would you like for the Station Agent to do? It's not like we can make money magically reappear. If I reimbursed you for money you lost, where would it come from? It wouldn't come from Transit, because they don't give out refunds at the booth! It would be coming out of my pocket. The rule is if you have a problem at the MVM you take the number of the machine, and call 212-MetroCard. We can do no more other than calling in a defective machine. Some customers, unfortunately, don't understand that.
Sometimes machines genuinely fail, but other times, the undesirables make purchases impossible.
-Stef
I don't expect the Station Agent to do anything. But other people who get screwed over by the MVM yell at the agent.
You guyz are skiping over my posts!!!! I explained the economics of vending in simple detail. I maintained coin changers that exchanged millions of dollars....and responsibility. CI Peter
Of course, of course. You have been forgotten, my brother. I shall not be ignorant of you again....
-Stef
Thankyou my friend!!!! I did not apply for Revenue Maintainer because I never want to unjam a Dollar Bill Acceptor or Coin Accepting Mechanism ever again! That job has you clocked with your TA access card and tracked everytime you swipe. Big Brother does live in TA!!! You do the same old tasks, cleaning out gunk and clearing jammed coins day in/day out. On my shop floor, supervision and management has some idea of where I am without a 'tracking chip.'
Page me and I show up. Sometimes, I do thank the Lord that TA does not have the brightest of minds running the show. Need me in an emergency? Put my passcard number into the computer, come up with my records and dial my wireless phone number. I also carry a 50/144/440 mHz handheld five watt radio with wideband scanner programmed for TA and police reception! To make two tin cans and a string work requires a taught line.
I bow to TheJuice. ( bow) (bow)
What you can do is join the fight to keep the booths open. We can not take plastic at the booth but we can sell cards after you go to an ATM and get cash from your credit card.
Can I buy a shoe paddle from the booth???
Can I buy a shoe paddle from the booth???
Only if the token clerk is feeling frisky... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Find me a frisky token clerk pleese...opposite sex of course. CI Peter
EWWW! Transit spankings!
Spank me pleeese with the yellow shoe paddle!
Station Agent by day, Dominatrix by night. Transit gets kinkier every day.
Please...not here
no! we sell tokens and MetroCards **only*** ANy other items are not for sale.
We also hand out different subway and bus maps and give out travel directions.
Right. I was talking about what we sell.Maps and information are free.
That's stupid. Not only do I pay nothing extra to use my credit card, but I get cashback bonuses.
If I used an ATM with one, I'd have to pay some exorbitant amount of interest. No thanks.
I've only once had a problem with an MVM not reading a credit card, and I haven't used a booth in 3 years.
Suggestion:
If you have an ATM/Debit card use that instead of the Credit Card.
Credit Cards don't require PIN codes ATM cards do. You may have a better chance of not getting cheated.
I have used my debit card countless times and not once have had a problem. Let me clarify that. If the machine cannot connect to the central approval center then the transaction will not go thru. If that happens I just go to another machine.
BTW - if the machine constantly malfunction, write the MTA, call the number on the MetroCard (do both).
Kvetching to us in here is fine but none of us can do much for you.
I've always used a credit card to refill and buy new ppr cards, and to buy fun passes and never had a problem. I have noticed, however, that there seems to be a daily limit of two fun passes per credit card. And yes, I have tried to buy a third card at another station on the same day.
Too bad I couldn't hook up with you last weekend. I knew you had tickets to the Mets game. Boy, do they ever suck. I'm taking all kinds of crap out here. My friends are really letting me have it and my wife it piling on, too. My cousins knew me from my New York days as a Dodger fan and since I live in LA think that is my team. I played along because I was so embarrassed about my team. When we were watching the game Saturday night and the Dodgers were slaughtering the Mets my cousins were patting me on the back and saying the Dodgers are really coming around. I half-heartedly nodded but was dying inside. What the hell is wrong with our Mets anyway?
The Mets are going on their traditional August tailspin. It happened before, particularly in 1980. They were 56-57 at one point that year, then dropped 38 of their last 49 including 13 in a row. In 1982, they lost 15 straight late in the year.
They seem to have a history of Flushing seasons down the toilet.
Say Fred, did you hear your favorite Dodger was in Brooklyn in July at a Cyclones game? Yup, the Duke of Flatbush made an appearance.
The news you gave me about the Mets wasn't what I wanted to hear and that only means that sometimes the truth really hurts. Boy are they bad. It is also good news to me whenever Duke Snider comes back to Brooklyn, but I have a very long memory, and though Duke says he never wantedto leave Brooklyn I do know that he was about the only Dodger who spoke positively when the move was made. Perhaps his less than stellar career, cut short my his knee injury, in LA colored his thinking somewhat but facts are facts. The rest of the team did NOT want to leave Brooklyn and that is also a fact. But the Duke still stands tall with me and I loved watching hit and field in Ebbets Field. Without that injury and move he would have hit about 150 more homers than he did.
If you have an ATM/Debit card use that instead of the Credit Card.
Credit Cards don't require PIN codes ATM cards do. You may have a better chance of not getting cheated.
My credit card gives me a 1% rebate and lets my money keep earning interest for about 1-2 months after the purchase. Why would I voluntarily give that up?
More importantly, if I have a dispute with a credit card charge, the money is still in my hands. If I use my ATM card, punch in my PIN, and the machine doesn't give me anything in return but thinks it does, I'm out $15 (or whatever) until I can convince the TA and/or the bank of the error. But since I use a credit card, I can initiate an investigation and the $15 remains in my hands until and unless the bank eventually rules against me.
I don't even see why you a PIN would make a difference. The only difference is that if you lose your card, nobody else is able to use it. So be careful not to lose your credit card, or call it in right away if you do!
I've used a debit card for both the metrocard and metro-north vending machines, and have not had many problems. Sometimes the metrocard machine has a problem reading the card, but eventually I get it to work, and I always get my metrocard. I find the new room in GCT that has both the metrocard and metro-north ticket vending machines to be quite convenient.
On a similar note, the metro-north ticket machines are starting to appear on the outbound stations (including my hometown station in CT). However, from what I've heard from MNRR conductors, the $2 service charge will still not be implemented when ticket windows are closed, even though you can now purchase tickets 24/7 with the machines. -Nick
Wait why is LIRR different?? On LIRR they still charge you if the machine is available. This is not fair! Why are LIRR riders treated poorly by the MTA compared to MNRR? Because MNRR riders make more money?
I like MNRR. One of my friends has a crush on the C \R on the Harlem line with the British accent.
John, I'll keep you updated on what occurs. Its possible that MNRR will implement the same policy as the LIRR; the conductors are just giving me guesses at this point. -Nick
We must use different MVM's. I've used dozens of them, always with credit cards, and I've only once had one fail on me -- the card transport mechanism was jammed and my card wasn't charged (although the receipt could have made that clearer -- I saved it until I got my statement just in case).
Does your station have MEM's (the baby MVM's that don't take cash)? I always use MEM's if they're available -- I find them easier to use and they're probably subject to a bit less abuse.
Castle Hill Avenue station has 3 MVM's, 4 turnstiles and a token booth. No MEM's in sight. The MVM's are constantly under heavy use, and when they completely die, it only makes the line to the booth even longer.
Sorry. All I can suggest is that you buy your MetroCards elsewhere whenever possible. (I seem to by most of mine away from my home station -- not by design; it just works out that way.)
Incidentally, did you know that your station is the busiest station on the Pelham line not served by both the local and the express? (But it still has higher MVM-to-passenger and turnstile-to-passenger ratios than mine!)
--Incidentally, did you know that your station is the busiest station on the Pelham line not served by both the local and the express? (But it still has higher MVM-to-passenger and turnstile-to-passenger ratios than mine!) --
Really? That's a pretty cool tidbit of info to know. I always thought that Westchester square would be busiest since it has so many bus routes that stop there. Where do you go to get ridership stats on a station?
No, Westchester Square ranked 266 (out of 424) in 2000; Castle Hill ranked 207.
NYCT publishes subway and bus ridership reports each year. Supposedly they're available on request; I recently got a hold of a second-hand or third-hand copy of a small section of the 2000 report, and I'm making good use of it.
Use a swiper next time. They are the most reliable form of Subway entry.
Of course. You support free enterprise, no?
I'm not needed anymore, since I have a criminal doing my job for me! Fine by me. Let's put the swiper in the booth for 8 hours.
-Stef
I'm not needed anymore, since I have a criminal doing my job for me! Fine by me. Let's put the swiper in the booth for 8 hours.
if he moves up to the booth, he can just keep pressing the button for the special entry turnstile...saves him effort.
Good point!!!!
-Stef
Yeah, until the counter fires off an alarm at Jay. Then they come and bust *YOUR* butt. :)
The button is logged and tracked. every time we buzz someone in, they know downtown.
Maybe I'm lucky, but in the total of 5-6 times I've used my credit card (to be more accurate, debit card, but using the credit card option), it's always worked.
Sorry to hear about your problems....and somewhat surprised. I have used credit cards to refill my metrocard at MVMs a number of times, and never had any trouble. I guess wherever there's a machine, there's a chance of malfunction, eh?
Now, on the LIRR, that's another story. I've tried several times to use my credit card to purchase tickets from the TVMs at Jamaica, and NEVER been successful. Fortunately, my card was never charged, but I always ended up having to pay cash.
I also had a problem with a TVM on the PATH at 14th Street and 6th Avenue. I put in $3 for a two trip ticket, using three one dollar bills, and got nothing. I called PATH about it, from the customer assistance phone near the turnstiles (a very nice feature!), and they sent me a refund....in the form of another two trip ticket! I only use the PATH maybe once in two years, so I had to send the ticket back and request a check....which I did get a couple of weeks later.
Buy metrocards with my credi card for over two years never had a problem. Bought at Union Square station numerous times never a problem
Tri-Met (Portland) recently announced that it will be changing its logo from the 3-circles with arrowheads (the 'pretzel', as it's called) to a similar logo that looks more like a rose (after all, Portland is the Rose City). Also, the colors will change from the 3-color stripe belt rail (orange/brown/maroon) to a blue/green 'swoosh' over a mostly white body. Two buses currently have the scheme, so it's probably only a matter of time before it shows up on the rail fleet.
Also, work is progressing on the Interstate MAX line and service is set to start in September '04. The trackword at the junction with the 'main' line at Rose Quarter is complete and a full 'Y' will allow several different routing options.
I always thought Tri-Met's soon-to-be-old logo looked like that of Piels Beer. (Long gone from what I've heard....)
Me too, but as you said, who remembers it? Piels beer is still around, I've been told, but it's not easy to find.
I heard on the news there is an email floating around the singles scene, that the NYC subway is a good place to meet a date! And their preffered car is the first car. They're taking our railfan car!
Well maybe it's a good thing for some of us.
But according to the girl they interviewed, she was looking for tall guys so I guess I'm out of luck. I'd still like to know what is so special about tall guys??
Don't tell me the front window is gonna be for making out, don't!!
Not to worry, John ... just don't look in the cab as the train pulls in. :)
just don't look in the cab as the train pulls in. :)
Hehe. That would've made Pelham 123 a VERY interesting movie...
Heh. I'd rent it. :)
I think the subway can be a good place to meet someone casually. I mean, it's fairly easy to start a nonconfrontational discussion, because you're in a public place where you know you'll be around someone of interest for a little while.
But you need to go more lightly than you might in most other places, because people (women especially) can find the subway (and the people in it) confining and threatening.
So you say just a little, make eye contact, flash a nice smile, and don't pursue it unless she does.
Look at a clothing catalog. Pants sizes are short, regular and long. Hence the pockets of taller men can accomodate larger wallets. Don't be fooled by that Aerosmith video where the guy has socks stuffed in his trunks. To mature women, it is the size of the wallet that really matters!!
Come on, everyone knows the Singles car is the third one from the Flushing end! :P
I was down in the City Hall area today for the first time in a long while. Since I wanted to have a cup of coffee and a bagel or muffin for (late) breakfast, I went looking for the Miss Subways coffee shop on Bway across the street from City Hall. However, I was not able to find it!
Is the coffee shop gone? If so, when did it go out of business? I admit that the last time I went looking for it was perhaps 3 years ago. If it is gone, I am sad to hear of it, since I felt that it was a connection to a different, bygone era in New York. OTOH, the last time I was there, there were perhaps only three other customers in there with me, so I can see that they were having a problem getting business . . . .
Stuart
Stuart,
Ellen Hart Sturm (former Miss Subways)closed it some time ago.
At the moment the only place of hers that I believe is still open is
"Ellen's Stardust Cafe" at 1650 Broadway at 51st St. (You can't miss it - the outside looks like a Redbird car with the number 1650 [yeah, I know the Redbirds were never numbered in that series but 1650 is the address so it fits]). The place is rather popular with it's 1950's theme and subway related menu.
Minor correction.
It is "Ellen's Stardust Diner" not Cafe.
Also theer is a web page of sorts on CitySearch:
http://ellensstardustdiner.citysearch.com/1.html
A picture of the outside is at the bottom of that page.
If you click on "And away we go" you will get a panoramic view of the place.
>>The place is rather popular with it's 1950's theme and subway related menu.<<
Subway related menu ?
You mean they serve Triplex burgers and Low-V fries ? Do the onion rings have piece of onion across the center to mimic an R-17 storm door window ? Doug wants to know !
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, Doug will just have to go there to find out (they have the mneu in the window of the "RedBird").
Hey, he can always eat at McD's on 47th St if he doesn't find anything appetizing.
Well, Doug will just have to go there to find out (they have the menu in the window of the "RedBird").
Hey, he can always eat at McD's on 47th St if he doesn't find anything appetizing.
MMmmm...steel dust sundaes.
Peace,
ANDEE
With rail grease topping and sprinkled with crushed rock ballast- Yummers!!
This is too funny. And when they serve it, what do they use for "rail grease" etc?
EEEEuuuuggghhhh.....Miss Ellens Stardust Cafe...I installed the CD jukebox system there and they never stopped complaining...wanted 'diner style wallboxes' but the machine never broke a hundred bucks of income in a week. Ten thousand dollars of equipment wouldn't bring in two hundred dollars of income a week...singing Waiters and Waitresses turn the equipment off. Miss Ellen doesn't look like Miss Subway today. Glad to be a Car Inspector. Funny coincidence this post!!! CI Peter
Widecab5 was right about these being here.
-Stef
I'm going to the Bronx for a Yankee game tomorrow. How many R142A's are on the #4 now? Is there a peak time to look for them, like during rush hour? -Nick
I'm sure the best time to see any of the new trains is rush hour, and I believe there are only five R142A trains on the 4. If you have time to spare, you could probably get on one without waiting forever.
Theres only 2 sets of R 142As on the 4 line. The car #s are 7661-7670 and 7671-7675/7681-7685 currently in service
I remember seeing an Uptown 4 express R142A at 33rd St at about 12:45PM on Monday.
I caught the R142A going downtown at Yankee stadium a little after 5:30 this afternoon. Rode it all the way to Union Square...a nice ride for sure! I didn't check the car #'s, but I can tell you that all the announcements were working just fine. -Nick
They're back on the road in passenger service, after their brief stint on the refuse train. For how long? Only time will tell.
On that note, the Weeks Barge has returned to 207th Street Yard. No cars were loaded today, but they may be loaded for their journey tomorrow.
The best place to view the cars on the barge is at the very end of 215th Street. You're right on the river front.
-Stef
What are R142 class cars doing on the refuse train? : Confused:
?
What?
They're Redbirds...
-Stef
Oops....( looks like a total moron)
You're right, actually. 7818-19 will live on in the form of R-142s, in the second portion of the option order.
-Stef
Not R142A's??
No.
-Stef
Let us just settle upon that you'se guyz know a hell of a lot more
than you take credit for....and do not make me eat my words.
I CHECK 207TH everyday to work...Weeks has the crane barge but no high draft barge for Redbirds siding! I'm seeing Redbirds coupled to work trains and refuse trains...EPs seem to be coming in for service morte frequently. CI peter
Aye! As I was passing nearby on the Deegan, one Redbird work pair came out of the shop, while the Signal Dolly was settling in for the day.
-Stef
Funny...why did I have to learn here what a signal dolly is?
Why?
-Stef
The last of the R-26s, I presume.
Does anyone know what the car assignments will be as of the 9/8 service changes? In particular, will the N and W be trading any cars? (If not, there won't be any railfan windows on the Broadway BMT on weekends except for the occasional R-32 R.)
And after the South Ferry line opens, will the 1 and 3 continue to maintain a mixed fleet, or will the red-stickered cars all go to the 1 and the blue-stickered cars all go to the 3?
with the 1 and 3 its gonna be the way it was before cars #2156-2475 on the 1 with whatever old Pelham trains have the red stickers and 3 with its usual 62A singles plus any old pelham cars that have already the blue stickers on them as for the N&W,who knows.i think that the W will remain using its entire R68A fleet and if extra trains are needed,throw in a couple of R68's to complete the set.
Don't know for sure how the N and W situation might be, but it's safe to assume then will have at least 3 or 4 Trainsets of R-68s/68As to cover for OPTO. When I hear OPTO on the N, I think of the 5. The 5 had a fleet of Redbirds, and 2 Trainsets of R-62As for OPTO. One has to think the N will continue to have a variety of equipment.
The 1 and 3 should go back to normal as it was before 9/11. Livonia Cars (Blue) to the 3, 240th St Cars (Red) to the 1.
As always, car assignments are subject to change.
-Stef
They shouldn't have to. The service on the W gets lengthened to what it already is. If anything we should toss some of the older equipment on the N. But Coney Island and Jamaica should have a few extra cars. I hope we see some R68As on the Brighton and a 75 footer on the Express. Man, do they fly during these past few weekend's GOs.
If rumor is correct all the 68a's will be on the N ,all the mix equipment will be going to the W.Also look for some R 46's to pop around on the N W or Q.R 46's were recently updated with W side signs.
I had heard the slants will make an appearance on the W. The 46's????
Who wants to bet on the 10 cars in the museum collection of Arnines showing up? :)
I would love that!!!!!!!!!!
Scissors, paper, rock as to who operates! :)
I have bee looking for the list that Car Equepment put out showing how maing trains set are needed on each line and what SIZE card each will have.
Exp. N Line
60'(10)
75'(5)
Line that not the model for cars.
Robert
How many of them could be towed at once by that steeplecab?:)
R-46's at CIY? Why?
Also, rumor has it that the C will be going to full-length trains. Might it get some R-44's for a change?
Also, rumor has it that the C will be going to full-length trains. Might it get some R-44's for a change?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought you liked the R-44's. Or do you not want them on the C so that more will remain on the A? (That's why I want R-44's on the C -- more railfan windows to Far Rockaway! OTOH, I do like the guaranteed railfan window on the C train.)
I love the R44's. It's the C train I hate.
The C train is one of the most underrated locals in the system.
The only place I like to see a C train is as I whizz on by one on an A express.
I do understand what you mean. The C local, particularly in Brooklyn, takes only a few more minutes to get to Hoyt St. as the A does (I believe this is caused by all the door holding at ENY, Utica and Nostrand).
And I like to be on a C train as it whizzes by an A express. Brooklyn is pretty much the only place the A actually makes decent time in comparison to the C. I once boarded a C at 86th shortly after an A went by. We passed it and it passed us back once or twice before arriving at 125th, where IIRC we closed our doors as the A opened its. By the time we reached 168th, I think we just missed a connection to the next A ahead. There was nothing visibly wrong on the express track.
I was once on an C that beat an A to 86th st/CPW, from Euclid!
R44s waren't bad, just a little cramped for the conductor who has to go back and forth.
About time the C gets full length trains though. Hopefully that will cut down on time a little as people run from the back of the platform to the back of the train at W4, 14, 34, 42, etc...
I hope these rumours become true!
--Mark
Ahhh....you wish EVERY rumor were true, you foamer you. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
With the R46 all being shopped at Jamaica, their appearance on the N, Q or W can be ruled out with certainty.
Also look for some R 46's to pop around on the N W or Q.R 46's were recently updated with W side signs.
Actually I came across them a while ago, they've been programmed for at least a year. And the V was in there long before long before that (I remember because the signs said V-71/Continental not V-Forest Hills-71Av). I think that's why those lines were chosen, the route letters had been planned years ago for any future use, and where they would be used.
They performed the delivery of Cars 7026-30 tonight. I should have known where they were heading to when they passed me northbound at 23rd St and 8th Ave on Monday. What a trip!
I think I wouldn't mind seeing TA locomotives preserved at various Museums, in my opinion. They would be quite useful.
-Stef
What's the deal with N1 and N2? I thought "Thomas the Tank Engine" was the only useful engine we adore. :)
Nothing like having handy rescue power, that's for sure. I remember the days when the locos were all two digit numbers. Guess the fleet of old yellers must have dwindled. Then again, fewer R9's. Heh.
I was going to send this as a private email, but figured since there's fans of TTC here who are also BVE users, you might be interested in knowing this too. Robert King's involvement is peripheral actually, but some of his photos were used (and credited) in one of the nicer BVE routes of the Yonge/University/Spadina subway of Toronto which was just released a few days ago. FINALLY had about an hour to screw around and downloaded it and the Bombardier T1 subway car specs (where Robert's photos were used) and it was a GREAT run.
The files can be gotten from:
http://www.crotrainz.com/ and are right on the current front page. The links to the T1 train appear to be deliberately broken by Geocities, but you can still get at the train files by removing the file name and going for the list provided from here (if you get a "page not found error") from Geocities:
http://www.geocities.com/latvis_88/bve/
It's a *VERY* nice run if you're into running a Toronto subway run.
Can you describe which pictures these were? I'm having a hard time figuring this one out because I didn't know about it!
-Robert King
Just emailed you a copy of a screenshot with your picture and credit there. Figured getting it up here would be too much of a pain to post to a website.
Thank you. I'm really happy to see that picture being put to good use. The Special Constables gave me trouble at the time I took it for no reason other than the fact I was using a tripod. I was out of the way, at the end of the platform and you can see how busy that station was at the time anyways.
-Robert King
It's actually a nice little run the author did for BVE. You might want to grab a copy and play with it yourself. :)
Any information is greatly appreciated.
I....see no particular reason why there would be.
:-) Andrew
No. R46 MU's are shopped only at Jamaica. N, Q, Diamond Q and W lines are shopped at Coney Island, which has no R46 units assigned.
Which begs the question: Are the one or two trainsets asigned to the Grand Street Shuttle shopped at Jamaica? It's a bit distant. (But then pretty much any yard is from that area.)
:-) Andrew
IIRC, all R-46s are shopped a Jamaica.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes. How would they get to Coney Island with the bridge tracks out, anyway?
But they were at Coney Island just after midnight on July 22, 2001:
It could get to Coney Island by way of the Culver Line, with a reverse-move or two. But sure the Jamaica yard (which is really in Kew Garden Hills, but never mind) makes more sense.
:-) Andrew
They are indeed, but the distance is about the same as from Coney, plus the IND is a direct connection to Jamaica, if the cars were asssigned to Coney, then you would have to backtrackto the Essex Street IND-BMT interlocking and reverse ends, or go up to the 11th Street cut, change ends, and backtrack down Broadway to Coney Island.
Easier just to get the cars from Jamaica, eh?
Huh? Why do all that work? Train pulls through W 4 St on 3 track, dumps, change ends, pull back into W 4 St on 1 track and take the Culver south.
Yes. ALL R46's are shopped in Jamaica, no matter where they run.
Somebody posted the possible assignment as a rumor, and, as usual, "Busfan" turned the sentence into a question and started another topic.
David
No. And stop starting new threads from other topics. Just rename the subject.
Huh? He didn't start this from another topic? It just says "posted by Busfan" not in response of anything.
It's one of his annoying little qualities.
Peace,
ANDEE
Why would you think that?
Because someone said it might happen in another thread. Busfan likes to take rumors and suggestions posted here (and more often on BusTalk) and start new threads asking if they're going to happen.
Let me try one:
I hear the 3 will be running R-36's out of Corona next pick.
please post any information
Not you, silly!
i guess i didnt do that one quite right... i should have started a whole new thread
do we like gotta chop your fingers so you cant type anymore? honestly your way past the annoying stage already,CUT IT OUT!!!
Now why on earth would they ever want to do THAT?
wayne
Today's Chicago Tribune headlines the cancellation of the "World Gateway" terminal program at O'Hare. American and United Airlines indicate that they cannot afford to commit the money for the multi-billion dollar progran, given the very difficult environment for airlines. I don't know how to include the link, but you need only go to www.chicagotribune.com.
Chicago is not New York, so I imagine that the project will end up getting funded and built somehow.
There sure isn't any Windy City equivalent to the Second Avenue Subway fiasco!
i doubt it
UA and AA are both cutting capacity, they will redeploy existing terminals
Actually, Chicago has had its share of bloopers. A few years ago there was a failed attempt to build a "people mover" around the Loop. This project spent lots of money before it was abandoned (shades of Second Avenue "design consultant fees".)
There's no need for it now. Besides, United Airlines may be bankrupt by November, and American is conserving cash.
I was on the #2 line at 34th St. when we wouldn't budge for about 8 minutes (this is longer stsanding time than you think) when the conductor reported something about "no power north of 96th St." It was very hard to hear because of the loud, deep hum of the R142's. Once we got to 42nd St., I think the train got a little delayed also.
Does anyone have any details to this incident?
There was a fire in the 96st. area and power was removed Sunday morning. It has since been restored and trains are operating as normal as possible.
What time Sunday morning? Around noon, or probably a bit earlier, I rode a 2 one stop from 86th to 96th and then got on a 1 behind it. Nothing appeared amiss.
Service was restored a little after 11 in the A.M.
I made it just in time, I guess.
Something strange was going on on the IRT this afternoon (6ish, give or take a half hour). I just missed a 1 at Fulton and caught the 1 behind it. We were stopped for two or three minutes between 42nd and 50th because the train in front of us was having door problems, but I guess they were fixed, because there wasn't a huge crowd at 50th trying to get onto our train. Just as we started moving, a 2 train passed us on the express track -- it was presumably rerouted to get past the delayed train on the local. But then at 72nd, another R-142 train pulled up on the express track -- signed as a 5 to Dyre. Was something wrong on Lex or did a T/O just take the wrong lineup at Atlantic?
BTW, I experienced something today I never expected to experience: a run on the J. My Manhattan-bound J just after 5pm ran nonstop from Crescent to Alabama. Who said there's no express service north of Broadway Junction?
I have been riding the R142's quite a few times now and I have noticed some things interesting:
1) Between doors R1 & R2 or L5 & L6 (whichever is the space between the end doors and the exterior side window, there is either one or two stickers. One denotes a black triangle, and the other (if it's present) indicates a black star. What do these signify?
2) There is a small metal door covering an opening just below these stickers. (It's not the emergency intercom) There is a tiny triangular opening so that door can be opened with a key? What is that for?
3) I've asked this question before but I can't find the thread: When would females make the transfer announcements?
4) About 2 weeks ago, the downtown 2 train skipped 28th, 23rd, and 18th Sts. on the local track. Was this a service diversion or irregular service?
5) I've noticed that when a conductor wants to make a manual announcement, there is a high-pitched "ding". Are there any other sounds that the R142 makes?
Answers and responses would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
I can only answer question 3 since I generally ride only the 6 train and have ridden on the 2 and 5 only several times.
Females never make the transfer announcements except for one 6 train that I have been on (end set 7656-7660, didn't catch the first 5). These had the updated transfers including the Q and the W. So therefore, the newer software. I believe the 4 and 5 do as well, as they all received their R142(A)s far after the bridge switch. Therefore, only the trainsets with the updated transfer announcements have the females making the transfer announcements.
Females never make the transfer announcements except for one 6 train that I have been on (end set 7656-7660, didn't catch the first 5).
No. I've heard a female transfer announcement when I was riding the #2 from 34th St. to Bergen St. - Brooklyn. I've only heard it once, though.
Now does anyone know when?
I'm not sure of the details, but it seems like for some transfer points on the 2, the female recorded transfer announcements, but only for the rush hour service pattern. When other transfers apply, the usual male concatenated announcement is made. For instance, when the train stops at 96th, most of the time the man says, "Transfer is available to the (pause) one! (pause) train" -- the way most transfers are announced. But during rush hours, the woman says, "Transfer is available to the one and nine trains" in a more natural mode of speech.
As I said above, I only refer to the 6 train in my post. I don't ride the 2, 4, or 5 nearly enough to make any definitive statements.
I don't ride the 2, 4, or 5 nearly enough to make any definitive statements.
That has never stopped anyone here! : )
Question number 3 The train was probaly late or had to make up scheulde.
Question number 5 conductors ar sometimes board and want to do something or the train was not gonna make proper annoucements
The stickers tell us T/O's where are BCO's are.
What are BCO's?
What equipment does LIRR use on the way from Penn Sta. to Montauk?
If they use bi-levels, do they have a nice effect?
They use two DM30 engines (in push-pull layout) with the new bi-levels.
Please respond as I want to know what equipment LIRR uses on the way from Penn Station to Montauk!
M1/3s which transfer to DE-C3
Aren't there any dual modes that go direct?
The 5:10 PM (Fridays only) from Penn to Montauk runs direct.
Well it depends honestly. You either have an electric from penn to Babylon then you change at Babylon for a Bilevel to Montauk or you can have an Electric from Penn to Jamiaca then change at Jamiaca for bilevel that takes you to montauk or you can the 5:10 rush hour train from Penn Station its a direct to Speonk. During the summer on Fridays its extended to Montauk.
I hope that answers your question.
Adam
Monday 26th August will see the preserved 1960 3 car set (3906 4927 3907) run in use between East Finchley and High Barnet Northern Line.8 return trips(1 every hour from 09:29 until 16:29) will be made, is anyone planning to ride this unit on Bank Holiday Monday?
Rob
Are actual customers getting to ride this train? What if it sits down?
the 1960 "cravens" set will be available for fare paying passengers and will 'fill in' between the normal 1995 stock.
From past experiences this unit is very well looked after and has a good service record,as James Bond was once told.....failure is not an option!
Rob
I am away at the weekend. I would have loved to go. Mr Bond.
Simon
Swindon UK
Do they still look like this?
No, they've since been painted red and cream. It isn't their authentic original condition appearance but it does look nice.
-Robert King
Standard stock colour!
I've seen 38 stock coloured 59(maybe 62) stock on the Northern, when I last went to London but Standard stock colouring on 60 stock is an unexpected kind of Spanish inquisition.
"Nooobody expects a Spanish etc..."
Cheers!
Wado
They've got one half of the painted 59 stock train in preservation so you might see a fan trip on the Northern Line using that train soon.
-Robert King
I guess I left town a little too early!
I will report the details on my trip when I get a chance.
So, what's the status? Last week I saw this train "purposely" being led by two HHP-8 locomotives bearing the "acela" mark again, except now it was ON TIME speeding past Metuchen station while I was waiting for the 7:38p NJT express to NY.
What does AMTRAK plan to do with this train? Or was it a coincidence?
#97 is the Silver Meteor. So I've been told, it cannot be hauled by HHP-8's unless it has no freight cars. Either those HHP-8's have been though the mods and are being used for testing, or they are limited to 80mph. #97 doesn't have a schedule north of Philadelphia, so the two HHP-8's even if limited to 80mph, could make it to NYP in reasonable time.
The train wasn't headed toward New York. It was the 7:05p to Miami just like the previous incident except this time it seemed to run on time because I saw it speed past Metuchen around 7:35p.
Do my eyes still deceive me?
What does AMTRAK plan to do with this train?
Not quite sure I understand the question... why would they do anything different with it than they have been? It's one of their more profitable (OK, less losing) routes and is occasionally the one I take home to North Carolina (more often I'm on 91, the Silver Star). (And I wish that 89/90 was still the Silver Palm, with a dining car, rather than the Palmetto, but hopefully that will change back with the arrival of snowbird season.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What I meant to say is that this is the second time the Silver Meteor has been pulled by something that is not the "norm". Two HHP-8's bearing the acela mark were used to pull this train to PHL or WAS departing NYP at 7:05p.
It hasn't been pulled by its own locomotive for awhile. What is usually used to pull it?
Because all the E-60s that normally pull it are being used to pull the Clockers. So now it's down to the HHP-8's. Even an SW-15 would be better than the HHP-8, I suspect.
AEM7
They use the E-60's (if I think it's what you mean) to pull the Crescent.
Can you give me a breakdown of the trains that depart out of NYP and which locomotive is normally used to pull each?
Also, I've seen at NYP quite a few electric locomotives that look like P40's and P42's which have a blue or beige background but it runs with electric power. What are the name of those locomotives?
I've seen at NYP quite a few electric locomotives that look like P40's and P42's which have a blue or beige background but it runs with electric power. What are the name of those locomotives?
P32AC-DM (dual mode)
On the diesel "super express" route from Hoboken to Long Branch with only one stop in between (Newark), train #2395, spotted beside LANE interlocking with an F40PH2CAT pulling 3 Comet II refurbished and two trailing Comet IV's.
Anyone else spot any other Comet II refurbished cars?
On Train #5713 yesterday, there was a 5 car consist. A Comet IV cab car, 3 refurbished Comet II's, and a Comet IV coach next to the F-40 engine. It was very strange seeing people exiting the center doors up front at Roselle Park, Cranford, and Westfield!
I heard this coming from two different TA superintendents today in regards to Queens section car assignments as of Sept. 8, 2002:
First the GOOD NEWS:
The G line will be getting 6 car R46's again for Monday-Friday service.
Overcrowding on the line had resulted due to the new V line taking up cars which resulted in a shortage. With the R143's coming in to the L line (which in turn brought R40M's to CI and then brought R32's from CI to JAM), it has dwindled the shortage to a point where 6 car R46's on the G line can once again be offered. JAM has received quite a few R32's (at least 100) since the R143's came on line, plus some borrowed cars from the C line.
But now the BAD NEWS:
The F line will run the majority of trips with R32 cars.
The only replacement cars that have been coming in to JAM are R32's. This will be done because the G will now be taking more R46 cars for the increased train length, and for "cuts & adds" meaning that on Friday nights for weekend OPTO G service, 8 car trains on the R and V will be turned into 2 different 4 car trains for OPTO G service. And on Monday mornings, two OPTO trains could then be banged together to make an R or V. Also as a footnote, R32's would no longer run on the R. The R will be 100% R46's again.
So as a review, the G,R,V will use R46 cars, and the E,F will be using R32's. R46's will still sporadically be used on the F, but not as often. Kind of like the current scenario where an R32 could pop up on the R.
This is only what I had heard from the Supt's. Don't kill the messenger!
Sounds like good news from my end. I ride the (F) and I'm sick of R46s.
:-) Andrew
I hope they keep the Brightliners on the F until my next trip to NYC. I really want to see the new Queens Bvld.-63rd Street Connection from a railfan window, and not through the smoke glass of an R-46 crew door slit.
So does this mean that some equipment for the G line will lay up at Church Avenue? This also means the TA needs to put some shoe leather on the plans for a new yard in Long Island City. But that also reveals my preference for a full-time express service north of Forest Hills on the Hillside Avenue Line.
So with more equipment coming into Jamacia, how many trains get laid up each night on D-4 north of Kew Gardens, 20 or 30? Also, what happens to the F's assigned out of Avenue X Yard, do they get R-32s also, or are they the few R-46 trains?
Why wouldn't they send R40Ms to Jamaica?
Arti
It's a maintenance thing.
The majority of maintenance crews at Jam Yd may not be familiar with the R40's. Bringing the R40M's to Jam Yd could result in a slowdown of productivity.
By eventually banishing all the R32's from CI to Jam, it also creates more of a uniform fleet for both CI and Jam. Jam already sticks with only the 32's and 46's, and CI would only deal with 40's and 68/68A's, though 42's are also in CI's future. Maintenance wise, 40's and 42's are pretty much the same.
Thanks!
Arti
Given that a 600-foot, 10-car train of R-32s will have eight more doors per side than 600-foot 8-car train of R-46s, I'm not sure why this should be such a bad thing for the F, except for people who prefer the R-46s seating arrangement. Loading and unloading with the R-32s figures to be faster during AM/PM rush with the eight extra doors (which is one of the reasons why the R-32s were on the E in the first place).
Given that a 600-foot, 10-car train of R-32s will have eight more doors per side than 600-foot 8-car train of R-46s, I'm not sure why this should be such a bad thing for the F
So that's for more doors for the people who insist on using the last 2 no matter what. :)
I agree 100%. For years, I've wondered how they were able to run R-46's on the F and R-32's on the E without the E's eventually catching up to the F ahead of it. Unless the extra door theory didn't make a difference, I don't know.
Actually I've been on R32 E's that have catched up to the R46 in front of it, but never vice-versa.
Wow, I can't even imagine the F without R46's. I know 60 foot cars have recently been on the F now an then, but back when I rode the F everyday around the late 80's-early 90's, it was 100% R46, I NEVER had anything else on the line.
Guess I'm from before your time then. I enjoyed the "F" most when they were running Arnines on that line. My biggest dislikes about the R-46 are the lack of the railfan window and the fact that the side doors are locked. I have to run from car to car out the side doors in order to get to the front of the train. I think R-32's on the "F" will be a vast improvement. I wish the R-40 slants could return to that like as well, but I understand the TA's concern for fleet uniformity. Just keep the R-142's/R-143's and R-160's away from my lines! (the "E", the "F" and the "7")
lol, I think it would be an intersting thing on the F. I just can't picture it though, not that it will be bad, I have never been on anything else on the F! I probably would've have fallen over at Delancy street if something other than an R46 pulled into the station! Almost like the not possibe occurance of an R46 pulling into a station along the Broadway el!
As for the slants on the F, I've seen photos and that would be cool to see again. I have the vision from the movie, "Eve of Destruction" of a very mean looking slant train with an orange F (not the original pink one) on the front.
>Almost like the not possibe occurance of an R46 pulling into a station along the Broadway el!
You should have been there for the bi-Centennial
hate to say it but the R160's will be on the E and F sometime during the next 20 years or so.it'll be so cool if the entire B division is R160.
Considering that the F is supposed to be the next line to go with ATO after the L and 7, it is certain.
Actually, the talk has been of making the Queens Boulevard Line CBTC after the Flushing Line, which is after the Canarsie Line. The F is not the only Queens Boulevard service, and CBTC is not ATO.
David
I heard it was going to tbe the Brooklyn portion of the F first, in conjunction with the new Bergen master tower.
(I heard it was going to tbe the Brooklyn portion of the F first, in conjunction with the new Bergen master tower. )
Yes and no. The new Bergen Interlocking is going in now, because they have to do something because of the fire. Similarly, they are installing new conventional (but CBTC ready) interlockings on the Flushing Line now, because the old signals are in such bad shape that they couldn't wait.
The plan is to then install CBTC on the Flushing line, then the Culver from Coney Island to 7th Avenue, then the Crosstown from 7th Avenue to Queens Plaza. Unfortunately that means my commute will be fouled up three times -- Bergen Street, CBTC Culver, CBTC Crosstown -- for a decade or more. I plan to suggest making Church the dividing line.
The problem is coordinating car replacements and CBTC. Eventually, the theory is, there will be no signals, so you can't run non-CBTC cars on CBTC lines (you can run CBTC cars on non-CBTC lines). Canarsie, Flushing, and Culver will all have regular signals AND CBTC, a killer expense. Assuming everything works, future lines would not have signals, and would be cheaper as the TA gets away from brutally expensive conventional signal systems.
But this all depends on replacing the fleet, and having the money continue to flow in. And no one is going to replace new signals before their 50 year life is up, given their cost. So even if everything works, don't expect an all CBTC TA until 2050 or so.
I wonder if the R46s, R62s and R68s can be retrofit to CBTC, and if that is part of the plan?
2050??? By that time we'll have warp drive! R62/68s have E-cam group boxes so theoretically CBTC cab controls could be installed but by the time this mod could come about, R62/68s will be the Redbirds of the day. CI Peter
No, they will have regular signals regardless of CBTC. There will be 2 modes. Flashing top green for CBTC and the traditional wayside signalling for backup.
Are you saying that for a least the next 10 years or so the TA will have both CBTC and wayside signaling on the lines that have CBTC? Then you also have to figure in I guess work trains running on CBTC lines.
Not for at least 10 years. That's THE way it'll work.
(Are you saying that for a least the next 10 years or so the TA will have both CBTC and wayside signaling on the lines that have
CBTC? Then you also have to figure in I guess work trains running on CBTC lines. )
That's an interesting point. Orders for new diesels will be coming up soon. I wonder if they will have CBTC compatibility? If not, how will they run on CBTC lines with no signals? Hope they thought of that.
this I must agree with. I figured as much,due to the up coming car transfers [E/F=R32's and the G/R/V=R46]Every new car went there.. but expect them to go to the A/C and JZ first!
with both expresses being R32's i wonder whos gonna miss the ride on a R46 going express...i will,but only a little bit.
I'm R46's out... you can develope a bad phobia riding those cars[end doors locked,no free movement between cars],I rode the very first R46 in 1975 [car 500]on the first day it was pressed in service.. all the cars were even numbers only[so this train only had cab cars]
As a little rail fan in the early-mid 1970's, the "F" was rampant with slants!!!!!! Great long railfan window too for someone 3 ft tall!! They also used to be rampant on the "A" line out to the Rockaways!!! That seemed to be it back then for the slants. But as for the "F", R-46's have ruled for so long, it takes me a while to remember also seeing R-10's, 4-9's, R-40m-42's, and R-44's in the past!!!! Tony
But now the BAD NEWS:
The F line will run the majority of trips with R32 cars.
Bad news? That's wonderful news! But I will have to get in one last R-32 R ride.
(But now the BAD NEWS: The F line will run the majority of trips with R32 cars....Bad news? That's wonderful news! But I will have to get in one last R-32 R ride.)
No, it's BAD NEWS. There has been a long "new car vs. old car" argument on Subtalk. I come down on the new car side, but one advantage old cars have is familiarity. If MDBF is good, there is an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" aspect to them.
Well, having ridden R46s on the F almost every day since 1986, I won't have my familiar old cars, or some clean, modern new cars. I'll have SOMEONE ELSE's old cars. Probably the oldest on the system to boot.
The Brightliners were great in their day, and if I had ridden them every day I would be sorry to lose them. As it is, I won't be happy to get them. Door crowding is not as much as an issue in Brooklyn, and the seats on the R46 are superior. Plus, it's a good looking interior -- more muted than the too-bright new cars, but with a little autumn leaves color.
I will make a point of hustling my kids up to the front car when the R32s arrive, however.
No, it's bad news for those of us who prefer to ride the R46 over the R32. That's the majority of F riders, minus the railfans.
I agree. I think passengers actually prefer the R46's and their seating arrangement to the 60 foot cars with the seats on the sides. And remember your average subway rider doesn't care about a front window. All it is for them is to get from point A to point B in the fastest and most comfortable way.
Personal preferences obviously vary from person to person, and there's no point arguing them, but it's good news on an objective basis, since the F can get crowded and the R-46 handles crowds poorly.
That is also true. The 60 footers do handle crowds better. I personally find the 75 foot cars more comfortable to ride in when they are not crowded. I hate getting stuck in the side "window seat" and have to crawl over people to gewt out at my station. The same is true if the window seat is vacant, but if I have to crawl over people to get to it. I'll just assume stand.
I am a "doorway stander" for the most part. If there are alot of people in the car, I am content to just stand in the doorway, and that goes for 60 or 75 foot cars. Most of my subway riding is standing in the doorways, especially on els, as I like to look out.
Yes getting out of that window seat on the R46's cab be difficult, all it takes it a fat person sitting in front of you or next to you and you're stuck. And you can't lean back too far in those seats or you'll hit the person sitting in back of you.
Unless the train is empty, 75' car seating sucks. I like benches much better, and I'd rather have to watch out for others on my sides then in back of me.
But I usually don't sit on subway cars anyway, if it has a railfan window I'll be in the front. :-)
For very empty trains (i.e., nobody's standing and most of the seats are empty), I don't mind the R-46 seating arrangement. Once the seats start to fill up, it can get ugly. No matter where you're sitting, either you're staring somebody in the face, or somebody is staring you in the face, or your arm is pressed against a piece of plastic.
I had a long ride on an R-46 F yesterday, from Stillwell all the way to Roosevelt. I started out in one of the window seats, but shortly into Manhattan someone sat down in front of me and began exuding an odor. Not wanting to enjoy his odor all the way through Queens, I got up at 14th and moved to an empty seat by the door, with my left arm pressing against a piece of plastic. (Then he got off at 23rd, but someone else had already claimed my former seat.)
At Roosevelt I got off and got on the R-32 E behind it. There's no comparison. The R-32 seats are simply much more comfortable and the a/c works better. I wasn't pressed against anything and I wasn't staring anyone in the face. Although the E looked and felt less crowded than the F, I'll bet it had more passengers.
As for appearance, the R-46 is ugly and pretentious. It's a typical product of the 70's -- just cover up anything that might offend someone's sensibilities with plastic, preferably either brightly colored or faux wood (the R-46 has both), but don't worry about functionality. (Then again, I'm a product of the 70's too, born in 1974, and I've never worn a faux wood t-shirt.) Plastic is rarely attractive to look at and is never attractive to lean on, but that's what we're expected to do on the R-46. At least the newest car orders have restored the functional layout; I wish they hadn't gone back to the plastic.
There's only one thing in your post that I object to:
I am a "doorway stander" for the most part. If there are alot of people in the car, I am content to just stand in the doorway, and that goes for 60 or 75 foot cars. Most of my subway riding is standing in the doorways, especially on els, as I like to look out.
Please, please, don't block the doorways. They're doorways (as opposed to walls) for a reason. Door blocking causes delays in entering and exiting; delays in entering and exiting cause delays in service. If I'm trying to get on or off a train and someone is standing in my way, I will say "excuse me" and give the blocker a split second to start getting out of my way before I push through.
I'll admit, the R-46 layout encourages door blocking, since there really isn't anywhere to move to inside the car. But on 60-footers and 51-footers, there's really no excuse.
Door blocking is equally prevelant on 60' cars as well. In fact, it's worse on the R32's because there are more of them to block.
The seating arrangement on the 75' cars has always been preferable to me. The window seats are the primary reason. But the R46's seats are defined by individual buckets, whereas the 60' cars have undefined benches. This allows selfish, inconsiderable people to use more space than necessary.
I guess it's a matter of taste. Most ordinary riders prefer the 75' cars over 60' cars, and I'm in that group.
Well, for the most part, alot of times I do move around a bit during my stay on the train, even if I am a "doorway stander" a lot of times. For example, I usually try to stay on the side of the train that doesn't open. Of course it alternates, and it's harder to do on an crowded train, although if it's crowded all the doors are blocked anyway.
It's funny that you mentioned the 75 foot cars encouraging "door blocking", but I do "door stand" mostly on the 75 foot cars, as a lot of times even if they are only half full, there are a lot of times no comfortable places to sit, as you stated "without staring someone in the face", or getting crammed into the window seat, which on an emptier train is one of the most comfortable seats, but becomes the seat from hell on crowded train. I too have been stuck in that seat, and having the "person needing a shower" decide to sit right there, and then having to crawl over that individual to get out....and where do you go....the doorway.
I understand your point though, I hate when you need to get in or out of the train, and someone won't move out of the way in the doorway. I, for the most part try to be careful not to do that, even stepping out on the platform for a second if the train is very busy, just allowing people to get in or out.
As long as you're aware of your surroundings and you're not actually blocking anyone, I can't complain. If I'm standing on a 1 train and I'm going to 42nd, I'll often assume the position by the door as soon as the doors close at 72nd, since they open on the other side for the next three stops. (That's especially useful if I'm in the last car and I need to go up the same staircase as everyone else in the car. Lately I've been using the new mezzanine at 41st to preserve my sanity. I don't know why all the signage, old and new alike, tries to funnel everyone to 42nd.)
The advantages to the seating on the R44s, 46s and 68s is that you may be able to get a forward-facing window seat (which, while nice, doesn't compensate for the loss of the railfan window. The 1/9s, 10s and 16s had this kind of seating AND railfan windows!).
The disadvantages are people sitting on an aisle seat next to an empty window seat who absolutely refuse to move aside to let somebody sit on either seat. When asked, they act as if you're panhandling. Some spitefully put their belongings on the empty window seat. This is especially annoying when the car is full of standees.
This frequently happens on buses and commuter trains as well.
Before the RTS, most TA buses had only sideways-facing seats (except the back row). While facing forward is more comfortable, the crowding is noticeably worse on buses with forward-facing seats (I'm speaking of the 12 years or so that RTSs and New Looks would both run on the same routes). IMO, buses with sideways-facing seats should have been ordered for use on the busier routes. Not only do they have room for more passengers, they also make it easier for boarding passengers to move to the back and for exiting passengers to use the back door.
But this is SubTalk, so I'll mention that I was on an impressively crowded W shuttle bus from Bay Parkway a few weeks ago. Despite all the standees, one passenger (sitting in the last sideways-facing seat on the right side of the bus) had placed a crate on the seat next to her. Recognizing her hardship, I pointed out all the people who were standing and suggested that she place the crate on the floor or on her lap. She complied and I offered the newly emptied seat to one or two others before taking it myself. (My interest was less in getting a seat than in making room for one more passenger on the bus. Given the crowds, those shuttle buses obviously don't run frequently, and I wouldn't want someone to be forced to wait for the next bus because a seat was occupied by a crate.)
I've heard this repeated many times, but I've yet to see any objective study where running 10 car trains of 60' cars as opposed to 8 car trains of 75' cars would decrease delays.
I think it's bunk.
I don't know if this was mentioned now or before but there are more doors on a 10 car train of 60' cars than a 8 car train of 75' cars. People can detrain faster and as a direct result, entrain quicker. The TA, I understand, prefers the 32's on the E because of this and their heavy loads.
As well, the layout of 75-foot cars obstructs movement in the car and encourages door blocking.
But I think Chris was looking for a study that shows that 60-foot cars actually work better in this regard, not that there are reasons to think they would. I don't know if such a study has been done.
I understand the theory. I just don't believe there's any evidence to prove it. The F was more crowded than the E pre 12/16/01, yet the E had the 32's.
Well, I agree with David G. that I don't know if a study was done. If I had to guess, I would say that a study exists because the TA seems to study everything else 8-). Was the F more crowded than the E? I had just heard that they like the 32's on the E. What a crush at 34/Penn Station.
One problem with the E is that pretty much all of the popular exits are at the extreme ends of the platforms. The south end of the train, in particular, gets clobbered while the middle remains only moderately crowded.
I knew you'd chime in with that :) I agree 100%!
i think the G should be 6 cars everyday.i know its gonna be to help the overcrowding during the weekdays but think about the weekends too.it gets crowded,especially with all the shoppers at 63Dr,Woodhaven Blvd and Grand Ave. I've seen how those stations are and i think 6 cars should be used everyday.
I know what you mean and agree with you.
if they got the 6 car trains during the week, i really don't see them doing the work to cut them down to 4 just for weekends when teh v doesn't run and there's already plenty of spare cars.
I do. 6 cars=no OPTO; 4 cars=OPTO.
Of course, I haven't heard OFFICIALLY that 6-car trains will be restored to the G in the first place...only here.
David
is there a reason 6 cars can't be run as opto?
I haven't verified this, but the claim here on BusTalk is that there's some rule or policy against operating OPTO trains more than 300 feet long (which would be 4x75'). Given that there currently are no OPTO trains longer than 300', it's possible. An exception will be the L train when CBTC is up and running -- full-length (8x60') trains are expected to be operated by one person.
David
If that's so I will take me a nice ride out on the Culver to take in a view I haven't seen for a while.
wayne
And I'm going to have to squeeze in at least one F ride through the 63rd St. connector. Not to mention another look at the switch arrangement south of W. 4th.
Perhaps we could include a ride on the Culver on Oct. 14.
One question---since the G won't be getting six cars until Monday, September 9, then does that mean that the F won't be mostly R-32 until Monday or Tuesday as well?
Possibly, possibly not. On 12/16/01, the first day of the F/G/V realignment (although the V wasn't running, since it was a Sunday), there were no R-32's on the F, even though subsequent weekends did see R-32's on the F.
One more question---does that mean we may see R40Ms on other CI lines besides the M?
The M isn't a "Coney Island" line. It's an East New York line. Since the R-40Ms are leaving East New York, eventually there won't be any on the M. The Coney Island lines that use 60' equipment are the N and Q-diamond.
David
And let's hope it stays that way. I love the R-32's and the R-40's and the Sea Beach has taken more than it share of hits from the TA the past couple of decades. To lose those two cars would be more than I could take.
R-40s from ENY are already running on the N line. not many, but a few.
I heard that the N and W will be switching fleets, so the 40Ms might end up on the W(along with the 40Ss)
I haven't heard officially that the N and W would be switching fleets. But: why would they? The number of cars needed on a given line is based on PEAK requirements. To my knowledge, peak requirements on these lines aren't changing (as of the May 12, 2002 assignment, the N required 20 trainsets while the W required 21). As to OPTO on the N during off-hours, there are already plenty of (OPTO-capable) R-68 cars assigned to the N (6 8-car trains, which could be split into as many as 12 4-car trains, as of the May 12, 2002 assignment).
David
Actually, it's conceivable that the peak requirement for the new W is on weekends, when it runs local. I don't know if the increased headways counteract that -- it seems unlikely that the all-local weekend W would need more trains than the almost-all-local rush hour N.
But currently, most R-68A's sit in the yard on weekends. If that's a deliberate act for whatever reason (rather than the accidental consequence of the W only running in Brooklyn), the N might get the R-68A's so most of them can continue to sit in the yard on weekends.
(Incidentally, I've pointed out before that the weekend/night OPTO N could theoretically make do with R-32's or R-40's, as all the platforms are on the T/O's side. It wouldn't be a good idea, of course, in case a train is rerouted to the 4th Avenue local, into Manhattan, or pretty much anywhere else.)
I don't think anyone ever stated anything definitive about a fleet swap. A week or two ago I asked if there would be one; "R30" may have taken my question to be a statement. The only responses I got were guesses, so I'll have to be content with waiting and seeing.
R40's do not have conductor controls in the T/O cab. R32's will be a thing of the past on the N probably by the end of the year.
Even if they do what you're saying, the F would still have plenty of R46's running on it. Extending the G to six cars would require about 20-24 cars maximum, and there are only a few trainsets of R32's on the R.
Let's just hope people don't get on the wrong train at Roosevelt. Those little flipdot signs on the front of the R32's are hard to see so people might confuse an E with an F. I remember riding R32s on the F several years ago (1994, I think) during the winter. It was weird to see them there; I tend to associate the F with R46s. But it'll be nice to see out the turnouts in the 63rd Street tunnel and the West 4th Street junction through the front window of an R32.
Well the side rollsigns take care of that, ORANGE for F, BLUE for E.
Don't get me wrong, the R46 digital signs were nice, but hard to read from a distance because they didn't use colors to denote the line.
Or they can do what space-age WMATA does - slap a colored disk in the front window.
I'd like to see roller curtains on the R-32s again.
Real simple question: R-40M on the N to replace the lost R-32s? Or, R-40M out of C.I. running on the N and diamond Q?
The R40M's that were transferred from ENY to CI are currently seeing service on the N. Spotted two of 'em the other day.
i saw a string of 8 or 10 r32s mostly signed up for the E pass through bergen on the f/g last night, deadheading towards jamacia on the g... o can only guess they were being transfered from Ci...
Probably came back from CI main shop.
I took a drive today along the northern part of the new Third Street light rail line in San Francisco. Eventually, the first phase will connect the Caltrain Bayshore (Tunnel Road) Station with 4th and King Streets near Pacific Bell Park.
Today I saw new rails about to be laid on Third Street between Fourth and 16th Streets, and trenching work being done a new street through one the of the Giants' parking lots between Fourth and Third. The traffic lanes have been shifted south of 16th Street down to around 24th in preparation for work along that segment. Parts of the 15 Third Muni Bus route are being rerouted around 18th Street. It looks like some underground utlity work is also in the plans around here. I saw some large, 36'' diameter concrete drain pipe sitting on display along the curb.
Buses are running in place of the L Line between West Portal and the Zoo while tracks undergo major rehab work. The turns at 15th and Ulloa and 15th and Taraval are being replaced right now. MUNI says service between West Portal and Sunset Blvd. will resume sometime next month, service to the zoo starts up again next year. Right now the abbreviated L train is turning where the abbreviated K is turning, at St. Francis circle. The trains use a temporary switch along the K right of way on Junipero Serra to make the move.
With enough R143 cars arriving, NYCT miss an oppurtunity to extend the G train to Church Av with more R32 cars coming into Jamaica Yard.
G train cannot be extended signalling capacity
Untrue.
-Hank
Why not
Thats what an MTAman said
Oh wait wrong end of G sorry
From Zman179 rumor, the F train has to continue to run with R46 cars because there aren't enough R32 cars at Jamaica Yard.
In the beginning (Sept.8), I'd estimate that if this plan does indeed come into fruition, you'll see 70% R32's and 30% R46's. But as more R32's get transferred into Jamaica, you'll see fewer R46 F's.
Don't forget that with the shortening of F service to Avenue X in September, that'll mean fewer total trains will be needed for F service. Probably (for the rush hour) 3 fewer trains would be needed.
What will happen to all of the R46 cars?
Going to the G and R.
I might actually pick PM's becasue of this to try and get the Friday Cuts and Adds job
That cuts & adds job is no piece of cake. I worked it for two picks on the extra list. Not only did you do cuts & adds (4pm-Midnight), but you did regular switching duties as well. Don't know how it'll work with those 900 series switching jobs already on the books at CTL.
I think this is GREAT! And it makes sense. R46's are slower cars and have a seating configuration better for local routes with less ridership. The 60 footers are better for express service, they have more doors per train which means faster loading times, and R32's seem to outperform R46 anyday.
75' cars are a failure, that's why the MTA will not get anymore and is now back to ordering 60' cars for the B division.
And best of all, there will be a railfan window on the F! And I will plan a trip the first day on the F with R32's, riding the F from 179st all the way to Brooklyn!
I have a hunch that those R32's will smoke that Rutgers tube!!
F T/O's remember your brake handle!!!
Why wait? They have been running some 32's on the F for months now.
The R-46s are OK in my book. I must admit I associate them with the F, since that has been their primary assignment for a number of years now.
Bring on the R32s... R40s would be sweet though... *sigh*
Most of the R32 has been occupied in E and N line and remaining few has gone to F and R.
I used to ride the F to and from work every day, from 179. I always appreciated the R-46 seat configuration because on days when my back was acting up, it was a lot more comfortable for me to sit facing forward or backward, as opposed to sideways.
From a railfan's point of view, the R-32s win, no question. But I sure was glad to have those R-46s when I really needed them!
Mapquest has updated their aerial foto for NYC. You can see where they have updated it.
I wonder if it is possible to see a pre 9/11 version
Microsoft Terraserver Has Ariel Photos From 1994-1998.
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?S=10&T=1&X=2917&Y=22535&Z=18&W=1&ref=F%7cWorld+Trade+Center%2c+New+York+City
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=11&x=1458&y=11266&z=18&w=1
Check These Links
Dude, they did that like less than a week after 9/11. I think that that photo may actually be from a froggie SPOT satellite, since there were no aircraft (especially something as small as a surveyor plane)anywhere in the US for a long time afterward. Actually, I think that photo is getting kind of old, it still shows the smoke and dust that covered the WTC area after the attack, now it's been cleaned up, the site itself is no longer a jagged hole in the ground, and the area does not have the havoc that that photo conveys, it's more a tourist site than a rescue or terrorist site anymore.
I think Microsoft's Terraserver still has their photo of Lower Manhatten unupdated, but it's a terrible picture, taken in the early morning from just a bit west of directly over the buildings, and as such the sides of the towers are in their own shadows, only the roofs are visible, as grey squares, although the sight of their shadows retreating from the Hudson are impressive. The surrounding low rises that made up the rest of the WTC complex show up much better
Every day I clock into the 239th yard, I bend down and try to see beneath two trainsets what track 67 has in store for me. Track 69 had one R142 five car trainset, 67 had our #5 Rebirds as usual and the rest of the place was filled with R127 EPs, Fuji Flatcars (garbage haulers) and Redbird Work Trains!!! No regular inspection of R142s. I had a few favorite Redbirds because their car numbers are the same as Eimac GG Triode transmitting tubes. I bury Redbird records...remove the last inspection records from the supervisors office. AND there were two...8874 (axial cooled transmitting triode) and 8875 (horizontal fin cooled transmitting triode) as work trains. I think 8873 is on the bottom of the ocean but I LOOK FOWARD TO SEE 8877 (1.5 Kw axial cooled transmitting triode.)
Miss working on commercial shortwave transmitters...gotta fire up the staion this weekend. CI Peter, WB2SGT (ham)
If we moved Manhattan East of the East River, wouldn't it save a lot of money in bridges not having to be built? Looking at the subway map, it wouldnt be too difficult, we just need to connect all the lines from Queens to all the lines from Brooklyn and abandon all tunnels under the East River except ones carrying traffic coming in from the Bronx. Those can route over the 59, 63, 53 St bridges and then the whole of Lower Manhattan could be abandoned moving everything to Queens. It would be more efficient.
What I would do is take several hundred Redbird carbodies and dump em in the East River as landfill, build street level causeway bridges and connect Queens to Manhattan. Problem is that there is still some odd maritime traffic that could not negotiate under causeway 'high spans.' The TriBorough bridge assembly is a horrific thoroughfare and does not warrant the cost of the tolls. CI Peter
Too bad you didn't float that plan earlier. An agreement has already been reached to move all of Manhattan to Staten Island -- thereby eliminating the need for ferries. Commuters from other boroughs will be accomodated by making the R a six-track line over the Verrazano bridge.
CG
I don't want to burst your bubble about how Manhattan and the other boroughs are connected by land (which is obviously underwater).
I think a better plan is to connect Manhattan to NJ. Granted it's just as impossible, but if we did that, all we'd have to do is extend the tunnels leading to Brooklyn and Queens. However, we'd be able to invade New Jersey due to our massive population and claim its land in the name of New York.
Look on the map. Why cant people who live on 2nd Ave walk the 1/2 mile to the (4) (5) (6) train? It's only 1/2 mile. People who live all the way down at 1st Ave can always take a bus.
Two things:
There are people from York Avenue that must walk all the way over to Lexington Avenue or take a jam-packed crosstown bus just to get to the subway. They would have to deal with crowded and slow articulateds that slide their way through some awful traffic just to go 5 long blocks to the subway and all...Why do all that when they can have the amenity of a subway or elevated near them...Yes, people can take the bus at first avenue, but the M15 is only known for tight headways, not necessarily for rapid trip times...so let's just say the trip down Second Ave is rather slow at times...
Also, I don't know if you realize that the Lexington Avenue line is operating almost past capacity and far more trains and riders than the current system allows...the 2nd Av line, if designed and planned right, can not only alleviate service on the Lex itself but also make it easier for passengers from the Bronx to get down that line more easily...IMHO, it's all about convenience and ease of travel...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"What? No 2nd Avenue Line Yet?
and it's not going to be an elevated, it will be a subway...
Does a post like that actually deserve a response?
Maybe it was a trick question.
Hahaha! Very good! I have an idea of who you are impersonating this time...
Jackie Mason or Jackie Martling???
We don't. I don't think there is any support whatsoever for a 2nd avenue El. Except maybe amongst the nostalgists on this board who'd love to see an El in Manhattan again.
CG
the 1/9 line, the high rise and the Metro North lines are still elevated in Manhattan
So that was the trick in the question...
:0)
The No. 6 route in Paris is an el:
http://www.nycsubway.org/eu/fr/paris/line6/p06piquet02.jpg
Has steel tracks but rubber tires. The point is Els don't have to follow the past sterotypes (noisy). Maybe an els is not such a bad idea for 2nd Avenue.
Fine the subway is on its way after half a century and happy it waill be built…
Questions:
Has a timetable been put out yet for the constuction?
Wasn't there a tunnel partially under Avenue C that was filled back up?
Thought: In the time it took to just get this thing started, could we have already had an el & the the various problems fixed?
Second Av construction begins in 2004. There is an extensive tunnel section in Harlem which will be used, and therefore need not be dug over again (less stress in the neighborhood!). There are also tunnel sections in Chinatown. I don't know how well maintained that is, but it's not going to be relevant right now because no construction will occur below 63rd Street for several years.
Suppose to be a block of tunnel near Pell Street in Chinatown. A Daily News article a few years back claimed that it was unsafe now, but dont know how accurate that was.
Sent in a while back a suggestion: Branch a stub off the Lexington Line to those sections under 2nd Ave. After connecting to 63rd, they could shave back the station platforms for Division B car use.
Would love to see a full length 2nd Avenue subway (as lines other places besides Manhattan), but the several years just to get below 63rd? Still wonder if an el could be built in the time just to get to 63rd. A seperate el starting at 63rd and Lexington, then turn south down 2nd Ave. finally lining up with the new South Ferry Terminal. In the long run would it be easier and less costly to maintain the tunnel over an el?
Political (reflecting MTA's customers!) considerations will prevent the erection of an El. Ypu're needlessly beating a dead horse.
As to a line branching off the Lex: neither practical nor desirable. Service frequency on all parts of the Lex needs to be maximized, so diverting Lex rail traffic to another line isn't the way to go.
Second Av's subway will introduce new capacity without affecting existing capacity. The upper half will be built first, which is the reason we'll have to wait a while for the lower half.
Not trying to beat a dead horse or knocking the 2nd Avenue subway, glad it will finally be a reality. The idea of an el was just a thought, contemplating the situation/issues. Again, a proper solution is beter than a quick fix, but something that could have been in place for the last 30 years till the subway came to be.
Some service is better than none, that was the reasoning behind a Lexington branch off. A temporary solution to get usage of the sections already built till it reached 63rd; also actual stations and tracks in may have been in place already. Less constuction now. That was all, nothing more
A branch off the Lex wouldn't increase capacity at all -- it would just move some trains a few blocks east.
OK. Reading all the posts, it would appear that the only reason a 2nd Ave el is necessary is because of capacity on the Lex line (or what I call the 456 line). I agree this is a good reason, although I question that 2nd Ave is the best place to put it. Not knowing Manhattan very well, I wouldn't know where to put it, but this kind of thing needs to be studied.
The 1/2 mile thing is not an issue. Here in Boston, many people walk more than a mile to reach rapid transit. Or they take a bus connector. For instance, the North End is more than 3/4 mile from any rapid transit or buses. It's even worse in Dudley, where all there are is buses.
The alternative to expanding capacity if the Lex line is crowded is by upping the fares.
AEM7
"OK. Reading all the posts, it would appear that the only reason a 2nd Ave el is necessary is because of capacity on the Lex line (or what I call the 456 line). I agree this is a good reason, although I question that 2nd Ave is the best place to put it."
The trouble is that, to best serve the residents, it should be on 1st Ave (this would put it in the residential center of gravity between the 4/5/6 route and the East River). But to best serve busiensses, it should be on 3rd Ave. (fewer businesses on 2nd and 1st in midtown). Result: everybody is only partially satisfied.
"The 1/2 mile thing is not an issue. Here in Boston, many people walk more than a mile to reach rapid transit. Or they take a bus connector. For instance, the North End is more than 3/4 mile from any rapid transit or buses."
The most extreme northern parts of the North End are 3/4 mi from the T. Most of the North End is less than that distance from either North Station or Haymarket.
In Boston, buses work relatively well because, outside of downtown, traffic is not so terrible. The crosstown buses in Manhattan, even in residential areas well distant from midtown, are very unreliable because of traffic delays.
Basically, from a transit viewpoint, Boston is comparable to western Queens or Brooklyn, not to Manhattan below 125th St.
In Boston, buses work relatively well because, outside of downtown, traffic is not so terrible. The crosstown buses in Manhattan, even in residential areas well distant from midtown, are very unreliable because of traffic delays.
In Boston, buses do not work relatively well. #1 and #66 are problematic bus routes in terms of headway, and they don't even go anywhere near the city center. There are no city center buses in Boston, precisely because they are too unreliable to run in the core of the city. #1 and #66 are reliable in the off-peak, but not in the peak hours.
Nonetheless, the fact that buses can't arrive on time is no reason to go ahead and spend lots of money on a rail transit. If that logic prevails, we should have rail transit everywhere in the country where buses can't arrive on time. In addition to routes like #1 and #66 in Boston, we would also have rail transit on routes like from Boston to Cape Cod, since buses in the summer weekends never arrive on time there either, due to congestion on 495.
There is a school of thought which states that rail transit ought to command premium fares, in fact the higher the better, because lowering fares create a vicious circle: lower fares = more people = poorer levels of service = even lower fares to compensate... on the other hand, higher fares = less people = good levels of service = premium fares. Even some mass-transit people agree with this. The shining example is PATCO, where the fares are very high compared to other transit systems, and PATCO users almost never have grief with the system. In fact many choose PATCO over other modes of transportation.
Cheap transit takes away road congestion and creates transit congestion. In fact, cheap transit benefits road users, because they get to drive on a congestion-free highway.
Transit will not shake its image of being the poor man's transportation without pricing itself up. If transit was priced at a level where rail transit could be sustained but the majority of the crush-loading traffic is relegated to the highways, the American public will re-think their assumption that transit are for the poor. Transit might actually make money and people might actually pay money to ride transit. As for people who insist on taking their ego to work, well they can congest out there and I really don't care.
What about people who have no car? Well if you can't afford a car and you can't afford transit, what about finding work locally? Even better, what about finding shift work so you can travel on good transit at off-peak times at very low rates?
AEM7
"In Boston, buses do not work relatively well."
I meant feeder buses that go from residential districts to the subway, not buses into the central business district. These can work well in Boston because traffic in those areas is lighter than in corresponding areas of Manhattan. Mass Ave is a breeze compared with 14th St or 23rd St.
Maybe transit should be priced higher. I was taking issue with your argument that people on the east side of Manhattan should take a bus to the subway. This is a mediocre service that cannot be made better via increasing the price.
Your comments may make sense for Boston. They don't apply in NYC. The subway isn't the way the poor get around -- it's the way everyone gets around. Mayor Bloomberg rides the 6 train to work every morning.
So why isn't the transit fare at $5 per ride?
AEM7
"So why isn't the transit fare at $5 per ride?"
Because the subway is for everyone - including the poor.
By the way, subways in Boston do not carry only poor people. Your characterization is wrong for Boston as well as New York.
Your characterizations are consistent, however, with those emanating from a heartless robot.
I'm just commercially aware. It would be nice if the world were full of people like me.
But then, I might need to go see the Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
AEM7
"I'm just commercially aware. It would be nice if the world were full of people like me"
I'm as commercially aware as you are. I try to complement it with a little compassion.
I'm as commercially aware as you are. I try to complement it with a little compassion.
That makes you a good leader. You can relate to people, and you have analytical skills.
Run against Joe Bruno.
AEM7
Unfortunately, I don't live in New York anymore...
I'm as commercially aware as you are. I try to complement it with a little compassion.
That makes you a good leader. You can relate to people, and you have analytical skills.
Run against Joe Bruno.
AEM7
Because all that would do is encourage city residents, especially those in Manhattan, to move out to the suburbs. To accomodate them there, we'd then have to increase capacity on the commuter railroads and on the highways, where each traveler takes up a lot more space and pays less per mile. Accomodating them in the city is cheaper. Manhattan subway riders aren't subsidized at the current fare.
You argued that more eloquently than I would have. You have a gift for this...
I wasn't going to respond to this, but I guess I have to now. It is simply not true that the public has a duty to "accommodate" people who choose to live in certain places. There are many other cities in the U.S. where people could plausibly live. If New York is too crowded to serve efficiently, then people should live elsewhere.
Your argument is basically a flawed one because it makes no attempt to charge the true costs of whatever (transportation, or living in New York) to those who incur it (i.e. residents).
"Your argument is basically a flawed one because it makes no attempt to charge the true costs of whatever (transportation, or living in New York) to those who incur it (i.e. residents)."
Nonsense. The fare, which covers operating costs, is not the only means of payment that residents make.
On the other hand, suburbanites are far more subsidized, and they do not even come close to paying for the environmental damage caused by sprawl development.. So, by your logic, suburbs should not be developed and residency restricted to city centers...
On the other hand, suburbanites are far more subsidized, and they do not even come close to paying for the environmental damage caused by sprawl development..
That is true, although I don't really believe in so called "environmental costs". Those are just numbers that economist slap on things to make their point. The truth is that the opportunity cost of open land in North America is, at present, very low. That is the real reason why suburbs have been as popular (and cheap) as they are. I believe in making suburbanites pay their fully-allocated transportation costs (this might include congestion costs, fuel costs, infrastructure costs etc). But I also believe that since land is practically free as soon as you get a fair distance away from the city center, if people are willing to pay the transportation costs, there is no reason why they should have to pay extra just because they are taking up green pastures that nobody wanted anyway. When green pastures become scarce, like the way it is in Europe, THEN we have to worry about the opportunity cost of land.
The real estate market isn't perfect, but we can try to make it so.
AEM7
"That is true, although I don't really believe in so called "environmental costs". Those are just numbers that economist slap on things to make their point."
No, they're not. The costs are real; albeit, our fix on them is imperfect.
"The truth is that the opportunity cost of open land in North America is, at present, very low."
Artificially so. It's cheap because we don't deal with the costs. If we can't perfectly figure them out, should it be free?
"But I also believe that since land is practically free as soon as you get a fair distance away from the city center"
That's false. Again, artificially so.
"..if people are willing to pay the transportation costs, there is no reason why they should have to pay extra just because they are taking up green pastures that nobody wanted anyway. "
Again, not true. A simplistic argument which ignores everything except that most convenient for it.
Artificially so. It's cheap because we don't deal with the costs. If we can't perfectly figure them out, should it be free?
How much would YOU pay to keep the pastures green? $1 per acre? Do you know how many acres are out there? There are property developers who are willing to pay a lot more than $1 per acre to turn green pastures into housing developments. Until you can outbid them, don't talk about "environmental" costs. If no one is willing to pay them, the cost cannot be real.
If you buy up the green pastures that people want to turn into housing estate, the developers will just go further out. It would be a good thing to have a green belt around the city owned by everyone, but so far no one has been willing to pay a higher price than the developers to keep them out. Until that happens, you cannot argue that the developers are doing damage. It is the society that is declining to prevent damage.
"There are property developers who are willing to pay a lot more than $1 per acre to turn green pastures into housing developments."
And willing to be subsidized by taxpayers for things like water supply and sewage. We already have serious problems on rivers like the Colorado, where water supply is incredibly scarce. Also, what about the cost of land recovery (developer destroys pristine land for shopping center; shopping center is subsequently abandoned; cost of recovering this land is now much higher). And then there's the issue of air quality, destruction of habitat, etc.
"Until you can outbid them, don't talk about "environmental" costs"
Ignorant nonsense. Just because I cannot outbid a developer who often has a zoning board bought and paid for doesn't mean there isn't a cost. We all pay that, willingly or unwillingly. It's often a transfer tax from poor to rich.
"If you buy up the green pastures that people want to turn into housing estate, the developers will just go further out."
Or further in, as in urban redevelopment, if the playing field is made level. Unfortunately, it usually isn't.
"It would be a good thing to have a green belt around the city owned by everyone, but so far no one has been willing to pay a higher price than the developers to keep them out. Until that happens, you cannot argue that the developers are doing damage. It is the society that is declining to prevent damage."
Society can decide to prevent the damage, and often does, by passing laws to restrict development.
And willing to be subsidized by taxpayers for things like water supply and sewage.
Actually, no. It's all private. Nobody has automatic rights to water supply. Connexion to city water in rural areas will often cost you an arm and a leg, with the result that many opt for well water and in-house filtering system. Usually, when housing development is built, the developer will contract with the local water companies offering a connexion for a certain fee, usually much reduced from the actual cost of pipe installation because the consumers provide the water company with a steady stream of income.
Also, what about the cost of land recovery (developer destroys pristine land for shopping center; shopping center is subsequently abandoned; cost of recovering this land is now much higher).
These are costs that need to bourne by those who wishes to recover the land, and not those who develop it. It's what ownership means. If I own the land, I can do whatever I want with it (with the exception of polluting it with say heavy metal). If I choose to abandon it, then other people are free to take it over and turn it back into green pastures. If that is their wish, then it is up to them to bear the costs.
And then there's the issue of air quality, destruction of habitat, etc.
Air quality, which is a real concern, is something that people have to collectively address. No one is the single cause of air pollution. People could use buses, despite the pattern of housing development. Full cost attribution for transportation will take care of that.
I fully agree with the notion that there should be freedom of choice in housing types, i.e. developers should not be allowed exclusively build low-density housing like the way it has happened in Houston, Dallas and Phoenix. Housing types should be market driven. Thus, low-density housing should be as much an option as high-density housing. The associated transportation costs should be fully-allocated.
Just because I cannot outbid a developer who often has a zoning board bought and paid for doesn't mean there isn't a cost.
Yes it does. It means at this point in time you are not willing to pay the sum of money required to avoid that "cost" in future. So if you're not willing to pay, you don't get the goods.
It's often a transfer tax from poor to rich.
I don't really care where the transfers go. If you can pay up, you get the goods. If not, you forego the goods.
Society can decide to prevent the damage, and often does, by passing laws to restrict development.
Passing laws to prevent certain types of development is taking away from the fundamental freedom of choice for people and institutions. Issues such as heavy metal contamination is a real problem in the sense that recovery often cannot be done and thus it is important to prevent such irreversible damage with wide ranging impacts. The issue of sprawl is different; sprawl in itself does not cause direct damage to people. Indirectly, air pollution etc can have health impacts but that is an indirect effect; if people who lived in suburbs chose to ride suburban buses, the air pollution would not be much of an issue. Thus you cannot argue preventing sprawl is necessary to prevent air pollution.
AEM7
(It's often a transfer tax from poor to rich.)
"I don't really care where the transfers go. If you can pay up, you get the goods. If not, you forego the goods. "
In Rwanda or Zaire or perhaps Afghanistan, that's absolutely true. In the US, it is not. If that is how yopu like to live, I invite you to visit their embassies or consulates and make arranghements to live a much better life than you have here.
"The issue of sprawl is different; sprawl in itself does not cause direct damage to people."
Yes, it does.
"at this point in time you are not willing to pay the sum of money required to avoid that "cost" in future. So if you're not willing to pay, you don't get the goods."
That is illusory- it results in an involuntary "tax" that we pay without our consent.
"Passing laws to prevent certain types of development is taking away from the fundamental freedom of choice for people and institutions."
Wrong." Issues such as heavy metal contamination is a real problem in the sense that recovery often cannot be done and thus it is important to prevent such irreversible damage with wide ranging impacts. " Thank you, you've just proven my point.
You like oxymorons, don't you?
" Indirectly, air pollution etc can have health impacts but that is an indirect effect; if people who lived in suburbs chose to ride suburban buses, the air pollution would not be much of an issue. Thus you cannot argue preventing sprawl is necessary to prevent air pollution."
Again, false. The effects are well documented in such places as the Los Angeles basin.
Back to school for AEM-7...
Again, false. The effects are well documented in such places as the Los Angeles basin.
Air pollution in the LA basin does not result from the development pattern. It results from the people's choice not to make use of "green" facilities such as sidewalks, transit systems, etc.
I would further argue that people have the right to live in a polluted city if they collectively make that choice.
I don't study Urban Planning. I think they're full of bullshit.
"I don't study Urban Planning. I think they're full of bullshit. "
That's the second time you've poo-pood somebody else's field of study - both times areas you know very little about.
If it's appropriate for you to do that, it's appropriate for someone else to ask you how many cereal box-tops you had to mail in to obtain your diploma (and whether or not the university in question asked you to pay for shipping and handling).
If it's appropriate for you to do that, it's appropriate for someone else to ask you how many cereal box-tops you had to mail in to obtain your diploma
Just six. And it only cost me $200 too.
AEM7
Damn, where were you when I needed you during my MBA program? All that money I spent subsidizing public university students because I was not eligible for resident tuition...
:0)
In Rwanda or Zaire or perhaps Afghanistan, that's absolutely true. In the US, it is not. If that is how yopu like to live...
There is not a "way to live" in the U.S. We had this discussion before. If you think you can dictate to others how "it is in the U.S." or how people should live their lives, you should perhaps go to Germany in the early 20th century. Who knows, if you had risen to power instead of Hitler, we might all be under your dictation today...
"If you think you can dictate to others how "it is in the U.S." or how people should live their lives, you should perhaps go to Germany in the early 20th century."
I do not wish to dictate to anyone. But your desires clearly cannot be satisfied within the US Constitution and our bicameral legislature, etc. This is why I suggested Zaire. Make the right moves, pay the right money, and you truly can do whatever you please and live however you please. Or, with a mistep or two, a traveler will find your body rotting in the hot sun along the road to Kinshasa airport...But the choice is entirely yours.
I'm settling for the dictates of Congress and the President of the US...
...But your desires clearly cannot be satisfied within the US Constitution and our bicameral legislature, etc...
You know, having said all that, I've not really ever complained about the politicians on here. I've not really bitched about Joe Bruno, I've not really complained about Pataki, I've not really complained even about Menino. Whatever they do really don't affect me because I'm really just an optimizing machine, subject to the constraints of the "society" -- and I include political actions as part of my defined constraints.
I also allow my constraints to drive my relocation decisions, and so far, I've not been 100% satisified with BOS but it's positive compared to where I used to live...
AEM7
You still haven't told us where you used to live. Where is it?
(of course, since it is 11:40AM, you could defer a reply via "Yogurt time! see you later)
Yogurt time for me too.
You didn't read my post. Try again.
The residents of the Upper East Side exist. Unless you propose we kill them off (not a good idea, IMO, even if it would reduce rents here on the Upper West Side), they will continue to exist.
If they remain on the Upper East Side, they need improved transportation facilities -- e.g., a new Second Avenue subway line. If they leave the Upper East Side and move to the suburbs, they need improved transportation facilities -- e.g., wider highways or more frequent commuter rail service. The tax burden they impose on the rest of us is lower if they stay where they are than if they move anywhere else. Transportation funding is already tremendously stacked against the cities -- there's no need to make it even worse.
I have been arguing for a long time in favor of eliminating all transportation subsidies and charging everyone their costs. The average Manhattan resident would come out way ahead -- moreso than just about anyone else in the U.S. Cities are incredibly efficient because of their density, not despite it. Because of the density on the Upper East Side, the 68th Street station had 9,762,139 paid fares in 2000. The 77th Street station had 9,761,918. The express station at 86th Street had 16,898,144. And 96th Street had a mere 6,481,299. The TA can't run enough trains for those 42,903,500 people to fit onto with its existing trackage. Can you think of a more efficient way to move 42,903,500 people -- plus everyone boarding north of 96th and south of 68th? If they all moved to the suburbs and bought cars, how many lane-miles of new highway would we need to build to accomodate them?
Can you think of a more efficient way to move 42,903,500 people -- plus everyone boarding north of 96th and south of 68th? If they all moved to the suburbs and bought cars, how many lane-miles of new highway would we need to build to accomodate them?
My solution would be to evenly distribute these people on the pastures of Iowa and Nebraska. That would be very efficient -- the infrastructure (highways) already exist for grain traffic and they are vastly underutilized.
"My solution would be to evenly distribute these people on the pastures of Iowa and Nebraska. That would be very efficient -- the infrastructure (highways) already exist for grain traffic and they are vastly underutilized. "
Fortunately, the farmers and ranchers in those states would not allow something as foolish as that.
Good thing this is Subtalk, and not the real world.
Who paid for those highways to begin with? Oh, right, we did.
Okay, so you move a few million people there. They all buy cars (since there's no other way around). They need to get to work. They need to go shopping. They need to travel to other parts of the country. They need phone service. They need mail. Who pays for the new roads and airports that they need? Who pays for the maintenance of the roads, old and new, that they drive on? Who suffers the consequences of the emissions of their cars? Who pays for the new phone lines that serve a small fraction of the people per foot than the phone lines they had in Manhattan? Who pays for the post offices that each serve a handful of people? Oh, right, we do.
On a per capita basis, density is dirt cheap.
You're missing his whole point, Dave. Zaire-style living is dirt cheap. If you can't afford protection, you get gunned down at the next checkpoint, which means the rest of us don't have to worry about your food or air or water. But hey, if you can't afford it, you don't get the goods. He said so.
All you have to worry about is how to compete against the next guy - no holds barred. Pure Darwin, unadulterated by things like the Bill of Rights, ADA, R142's...
I've had quite enough of this.
THERE IS NO ZAIRE! Zaire has gone the way of the United Arab Republic, Rhodesia and Upper Volta. It's called Congo now.
Glad you got that off your chest.
Don't worry - it'll be called something else next year. In places like that, you double check which flag is flying outside your window each morning...
Or the Democratic [sic] Republic of the Congo to be more accurate - there's another country right by it which is also called the Congo.
Better to call it the Congo formerly known as Zaire.
The other Congo can be the Congo that was always the Congo.
Better to call it the Congo formerly known as Zaire.
The other Congo can be the Congo that was always the Congo.
Even more confusingly the Congo which used to be Zaire previously was the Demopratic Republic of the Congo again and before that the Belgian Congo. The Congo which was always the Congo used to be the French Congo. I quite like the French/Belgian convention of referring to the Republic of the Congo as Congo-Brazzaville and the Demopratic Republic as Congo-Léopoldsville or Congo-Kinshasa depending on how politically correct one's feeling!
I think you may be looking at the issue from too narrow a perspective.
Could the TA maximize revenue at $3 or $5 per ride on the Lex. Probably? They'd probably even reduce overall costs, as wear and tear would decrease.
But the TA is only a subsidiary of state and city government. And those entities have an interest in getting the most people possible transported. While the business districts of Manhattan have many of the highest wage earners anywhere, those people are reliant upon legions of $40K-$50K per year administrative support staff and $8-$10 per hour restaurant workers. If the employees of American Express, Merrill Lynch, Citigroup and Time Warner etc. can't get to work in Manhattan, those firms will eventually pack up and move somewhere that their thousands of employees can reach affordably.
Is the above an economic truth? I don't know but I suspect it likely is. Either way, the politicos believe it is and as a result you won't see demand based pricing on public transit any time soon.
CG
Becuase the subway is for everyone not just the rich. Wouldnt you want to encourage subway ridership by having a decent fare then having a very expensive one?
I agree much that an East Side line should be built on 1st Ave. As a resident of the Upper East side, we have places like the UN, Bellevue, NYU, New York-Presbyterian Hospital, Memorial-Sloan Kettering Cancer Center among others. The 1 Ave line can run right through Chinatown and Lower Manhattan and link up with other IRT lines in the Bronx if built to IRT dimensions. Even then, a new eastern Bronx line can be done with the 1 Ave line.
>>The alternative to expanding capacity if the Lex line is crowded is by
upping the fares. <<
Ah, a bean counter answer to a lack of infrastructure. Perhaps the price of "cake" should be lowered to relieve demand for bread?
Allowing the agency to charge a higher price is beneficial to other people, since they would be able to make more money by accomodating even more passengers.
At the current time, building a new subway just means new passengers to lose money on.
"At the current time, building a new subway just means new passengers to lose money on. "
Not true in New York. Since the passenger volume has been very close, or at, the breakeven point, any new line construction is likely to produce sufficientr revenue to cover its own operating expenses and perhaps even more. Two reasons: Increased ridership by expanding the subway's market served, and encouraging additional ridership on connecting lines; and also, because a new line will be entirely ADA compliant, opening parts of the subway to new customers (not just the disabled) who have not ridden before.
And then there is the documented positive effect on property values, whhich in the long run produces increased property tax and business tax receipts...
New line construction in cities with smaller networks will not have the same effect, though they will have positive effects on property values etc.
Positive effect on property values are well documented. MTA doesn't see any of it. If MTA owned the entire lower east side and charges the residents rent, I'd love to see 2nd Ave el built.
"Positive effect on property values are well documented. MTA doesn't see any of it. "
You're right. MTA doesn't receive a cent of business taxes gathered by the state. In fact, MTA's main source of revenue aside from fares is the sale of commemorative postage stamps and teddy bears. They buy subway cars by holding raffles.
In fact, MTA's main source of revenue aside from fares is the sale of commemorative postage stamps and teddy bears.
LOL! But it makes me wonder... were you at StampShow 2002 last week?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Suppose to be a block of tunnel near Pell Street in Chinatown. A Daily News article a few years back claimed that it was unsafe now, but dont know how accurate that was.
Based on the videotape Mark Feinman shot down there while on a Transit Museum tour about three or four years ago it's in excellent condition.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And ready for utilization...
Glad to hear. It was in the Daily News tho, but not going to start on that paper.
Side question, wasn't there a tunnel partly under Avenue C that was filled back up?
... wasn't there a tunnel partly under Avenue C that was filled back up?
It is my understanding that utilities relocation was performed, along with some excavation, but that the excavation was not completed when the funding was cut and no concrete had been poured. Since there really wasn't a tunnel segment to preserve they simply filled it back in and repaved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It wasn't under Avenue C. It was under Second Avenue, between E. 2nd & E. 9th Streets.
David
There are also tunnel sections in Chinatown. I don't know how well maintained that is
Very well maintained. I was in those sections myself a few years ago. I was told that they are inspected every 2 weeks.
--Mark
>>Look on the map. Why cant people who live on 2nd Ave walk the 1/2 mile to the (4) (5) (6) train? It's only 1/2 mile. People who live all the way down at 1st Ave can always take a bus.<<
I live on Second Avenue. A half a mile may be too much for an elderly person or a injured person. Plus the 4, 5 and 6 runs at nearly 130% capacity during rush hour so it's no picnic riding that line. And the bus is horendous. It's slow and jammed pack. Plus some drivers have their god damn attitude ok. If a Second Avenue line is built you wont know the good that can come from this. Even if it's all local trains running from the Bronx and Queens or where ever. So dont knock the 2 Avenue line iight!
"A half a mile may be too much for an elderly person or a injured person"
According to AEM-7's previous posts on Subtalk, elderly and disabled people don't deserve to ride the subway...
I remember his take on that also. Something about it being anti-evolutionary, if you allow the sick and weak to survive, those defective qualities may get passed on to future generations. Horrors!
Is is ironic that he mentioned that he is shorter than average and he acknowledged that some could take that as a defective quality. But since (thankfully) we do not live by his rules, he has nothing to worry about.
I asked him why do we need a police department. Since he feels that subsidizing medical coverage is a bad thing since it allows those that cannot afford life saving medical care to survive and, again maybe pass along those defective genes, why should be protect the weak, sick or old from preditory thugs on the street? In his world view, those who prey on the sick and weak are actually doing society a favor. If you are strong enough or smart enough to defend yourself fron the muggers, you have qualities we need. If you happen to not be so strong or clever, so long and good bye.
Here's one...why do we need a 7th avenue AND an 8th avenue subway. I say merge them all onto 8th avenue, put gap fillers on the Manhattan stations for the IRT cars, and we can cut maintenence costs on those 2 tunnels in half.
Wait lets take it further, merge 6th, 7th, and 8th all into one line, run it all along 7th avenue until CPS, and then move over to 8th avenue.
Plus tho the PATH could get the 6th Ave, 63rd Street tunnel and closer access to LaGuardia
On the otherhand… now your screwing the developing west side of Manhattan out of service, and overcrowding the 7th Ave and Broadway lines, plus the bottleneck and the fact the Division B cars can't use the IRT tunnels
He was obviously being sarcastic.
I can understand the arguement to Broadway and 6th Ave, but how much consideration did you give this
Hoyt-Schermerhorn Station in Brooklyn is a nasty bottleneck… How would you deal with the bottleneck of the A, C, 2, and 3 lines in Manhattan? Then installing gap fillers on both sides of every station.
What happens to South Ferry?
Knocking out the 7th Avenue Line would make the 6th Avenue line a necessity, but what happens to the 7th Avenue tunnel and stations. (unless the PATH is willing to buy and redesign the tunnels to suit there cars, or convert them for the Metro-North and LIRR access to lower Manhattan)
The whole idea is just too much
Two reason
1) the bus never comes. And when it comes it's not much faster than walking
2)1/2 mile it a bit of a walk UPHILL in some sections. My girlfreind was living in the hunter college dorms over on 1st and 26th. It would take me longer to take public transit to work down on wall street then it does from all the way out in mill basin brooklyn.
Plus the primary reason for secound ave subway is that the lex is over crowded . Granted if they connect metro north to penn and down to the finacial district some strain on the lex will be aliviated
Oh my! You're right! And to think, after all those planning studies and design reports, the answer was right in front of oiur noses.
Plaease pardon my sarcasm, but I strongly suggest reading the latest planning study. It should be available on the MTA web site, and it will answer your question, as I will make the (very warranted) assumption that you have never ridden the (4), (5), (6) during peak hours.
MATT-2AV
I have just been able to log onto nycsubway.org and Subtalk, but it appears many others had no problems at all. Was this a problem with AOL users only?
I guess the data line between ttsg.com (which was unreachable also)and AOL got cut!
get a real isp, and your problems will be solved
It only seems to affect AOL users, as SubTalk was working all day. There's a whole thread going on at Harry's place about it.
Yes, I know. Well I guess there was a line problem at AOL with whatever TELCO feeder goes to nycsubway.org.
It has nothing to do with any TELCO feeder to this site - that's totally out of AOL's control and isn't managed by them in any way. AOL, or whoever they're leasing their backbone from, probably had some router problems - in any event, it's related to the backbone, not the "last mile" to the servers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AOL depends very heavily on "local caching servers" much like Road Runner does (which they also own in part) ... the less often you have to go out to a site and pull a page, the lower your bandwidth costs. I'm told by some Qwest engineers that I know that AOL has been drastically cutting back on bandwidth as a cost-saving measure and many requests for pages are dropped just to keep the bandwidth down. If it ain't on an AOL proxy server (watch your address bar if you're an AOL user, you'll see "AOL-proxy" as it does so) then you don't need to have it if there's a lot of other people online.
The most expensive ISP there is can't pay their bills. Gotta love it. :)
Kevin, Anon_e_mous and others,
Today, I have not been experiencing difficulties in connecting to
SubTalk or nycsubway.org via AOL. I one of the ranter's from Harry's
board. As for AOL, being the most expensive, well I looked at other
ISP and you have to read all the small print. Other then connecting
to this board, AOL serves my purposes along with a local dial up
from Verizon. It's unlimited, so my monthly cost isn't thru the
ceiling. That's me conviction, and I am a computer nerd. A lot of
the info posted is beyond me, but I sincerly thank those of you who
did take the effort to post same. Truly appreciated.
;-) Sparky
Actually for unlimited service, I have MSN and have unlimited service. I paid about $180.000 in advance and that comes to $15 a month. The catch is you have to pay in advance, otherwise MSN is about $21.00 a month for unlimited. It seemed like a good deal to me. You can use the Internet Explorer screen (which I do) and they also have a similar set up like AOL's format if you like that kind of screen setup, without all the little glitches that AOL has.
So crappy to use, you'll wonder why we're #1
I've never had AOL, but I've used it a couple of times on a friend's computer, and it sucks and it's way slow. I guess many people use it just because they don't know any better.
We keep a couple of AOL accounts for the business since we're often getting blamed for some dumbass upgrade AOL stuffs up people's snouts. They're not number one, they're "number two" ... literally. :)
Tell me, if you actually buy the service, do they pass along the information to the marketing department so they stop sending those free trial AWOL CDs to you in the mail? Or do the discs continue ceaselessly? Depending on how you think about it, the usage agreement for the free hours they provide on those CDs is such a scam or they put false advertising on the front - perhaps both... In any case, we don't use AWOL Canada.
-Robert King
They stopped sending them pucks to me a long time ago. I think you're now required to visit a Wal*Mart to get them nowadays. I tell ya, we wouldn't have kept the AOL account if it weren't for them constantly causing some of our customers problems that we have to fix and some AOL'ers can't get files from us UNLESS it comes through AOL. But if it weren't a deductable expense, they'd have been goners a long time ago. We rarely use it though unless we need to test a new "sub" of their software to make sure OURS still works.
They stopped sending them pucks to me a long time ago. I think you're now required to visit a Wal*Mart to get them nowadays.
I still get about one a month - half in the mail, half with the Sunday birdcage liner that passes for a newspaper hereabouts. Stack three together with a couple dots of superglue and they launch almost as well as clay pigeons when we go out to shoot some skeet :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember when they still used 3.5 inch discs before they went to mailing CDs. The floppy discs would be formatted and put to work almost right away, but I have yet to find a good use for the CDs; unfortunately, the clay pigeon idea isn't so redily usable in up here :)
-Robert King
They make wonderful shims for wobbly furniture. :)
Dang! I feel so ... deprived! That does it, I'm cancelling my account. I'm running out of coasters for my guests in the company bar. All those MSDN platters have been dissolved by spilt Wild Turkey. :)
I still get those discs I just chuck them. And even funner, I get advertizements in my email and sign on windows that urge me try AOL high speed, even though I have it!
It came with my computer, and I had a free year (now used up).
I may eventually switch to another DSL provider, given the price is the same or less than what I'm paying for AOL.
Thing is I don't want a lapse without DSL service.
>>> I may eventually switch to another DSL provider, given the price is the same or less than what I'm paying for AOL. <<<
It will be hard to find one more expensive. AOL (and Microsoft) are proof that strong marketing is much more effective than quality in the American market place.
Tom
I use AOL and have had no problems.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well I had problems again today, now it appears to be working again. At first the site doesn't load, then after a few tries it loads very slowly. Then the index reloads at normal speed.
AOL has been having a LOT of problems lately, as has QWEST their "wire provider" ...
AOL lets me post for three days, then locks me out for three days. It's a pain.
Why don't you guys call AOL tech support and find out what your problems are??
Why don't you guys call AOL tech support and find out what your problems are??
Yeah... their TV ads say that they have the best and most undeerstandable and sympathetic tech support this side of the andromeda galexy!
: ) Elias
Yeah, I know that was kind of a joke but I figure those people who are having trouble (when they can see from the amount of posts that others are not having trouble) that their ISP would be the natural place to start debugging.
Most people don't seem to understand just *how* *many* pieces of network infrastructure are in between your desktop and any random web site. All it takes is one router, switch, communications line, etc to have problems and you may not get here from there. But you might very well have no problems getting to some other site which takes a different path. Your ISP might be able to determine where along the path the trouble is occuring, even if it may not be in their power (or even care to try) to actually fix it.
Just as I predicted, the thicker brackets didn't stop the cracking:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42178-2002Aug20.html
From the Washington Post:
The new cracks were found in the side sill, an 80-foot-long stainless-steel structure that runs the length of the locomotive. In each case, the cracks were located inches from the brackets, which attach large shock absorbers called yaw dampers to the locomotive frame to prevent the train from rocking
They believe they may have been there for a while. Bombardier claims a new bracket will fix this too, but these cracks are located away from the brackets (in otherwords, they're bullshitting and it's plainly obvious). Being too heavy for high speed service, the Acela locomotives are basically cracking themselvs apart.
I'll reassert right now what I probbably said here once before - the real fix to the Acela's problems is likely to be a permenant speed restriction, and elimanation of faster than 125mph running. These problems will NOT be solved via the 'caveman' method. Right now,they're just being shifted around.
The HHP-8s will likely suffer a worse fate - being 11 tons heavier and a bit shorter than the Acela power units, they theoretically should suffer worse dammage, though they generally run at lower speeds so that may be what's saving them.
Someone PLEASE answer: Just WHY can't Bombsuckier do ANYTHING right?
it bothers me to defend vendors BUT, it seems to me that Bombardier has previously built other railcars which have performed correctly. IIRC the Horizon cars on ATK and clones built for commuter services are not problem plagued. Now mind you these were 'copies' of previous Pullman Standard engineered products, but Bombardier are apparently capable of manufacturing proven designs. AND THAT is the issue here I believe. While I am not in complete agreement with Philip, he is likely on the right track. Any structrure (rail or static) with serious cracks in the side sills which are the "foundation' of the framing is in BIG trouble.
_-CHANTING-_
LAWSUIT! LAWSUIT! LAWSUIT! 1,2,3 SUE!!!!!! Gimmie a S, Gimmie a U, Gimmie a E. What's it say : SUE! Lets Sue ! SUE SUUUUUUEEEEE!!!!!
While I am not in complete agreement with Philip, he is likely on the right track. Any structrure (rail or static) with serious cracks in the side sills...
The cracks likely result from high concentration of stress and stress cycles (changes in stress due to side-to-side motion of the locomotive, hence cycling between compressive and tensile stress very quickly). Under those circumstances, cracks due to defect in the metal propagate quickly.
There are likely several fixes: (1) lessen the side-to-side motion (2) allowing more side-to-side motion (3) distribute the stress better. (1) and (2) are not likely to happen without extensive trackwork or decreasing top speed, so it's likely to be solution (3): increase the number of brackets.
AEM7
I supervised some of the vendor ultrasound scans of R142 trucks...no cracks found but intrinsic defects of rubber support chevrons and torsion bar bushings abound. Bombardier has the money...our money...and could flee
Because they were trying to do something that has never been done before - build a heavyweight train that runs at 150mph. There's a reason nobody does it, too. It doesn't work. The Acela locomotives are simply too heavy and tied to too heavy a train to avoid these problems. Stiffen the frames up, the cracks will just move. Add weight, the dynamics get worse and the forces bigger. Ignore the dampers, hunting becomes serious and the track gets beat up. ignore the problem, things get worse.
The fix is either reduce the amount of energy involved, i.e. lower the speeds, or raise the truck's critical speed, i.e. lighten the train. Neither is attractive, but neither is welding a 2 year old locomotive.
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and the cars to start showing signs of high wear. I think it'll start happening pretty soon.
I'm also waiting for congress to get into this mess....
Do the locos have to be as heavy as tey are?
Structural cracks are a result of improper design and heat treatment of steel assemblies. Weight is not an issue. CI peter
No. Typical European locomotives weigh in at 80 tons and do just fine. Actually, with the cars they use over there, better than the crap we have over here. 100 tons is ok for a lower speed locomotive, but doing 150mph with that much weight is kinda pointless. I think the TGV locos are only 80 tons. They might be 100, but I don't see why'd they be so heavy.
We can argue about this time and again. European locomotives are too light. They do not stand up to the rigors of the North American environment.
They are also too damn small. If you got the same service and the same size seat on an Airline as you did Acela, which one would you take? Airline! Duh. I mean it gets you there faster and its cheaper.
Funny, the AEM-7 and ALP-44 have done just fine. Better than their 'tough' American counterparts, the E-60's. In fact, the AEM-7s were ordered to fill a role the E-60's simply could not - operate safely at high speed. Guess which locomotive Amtrak is looking to retire shortly....
And you would argue AEM-7 and ALP-44 are "light"? If that's what you mean by "light", then I agree with you. Those are good locomotives.
HHP8
:)
Those look like mini acela trainsets.
I kinda find it funny how the HHP-8, weighing in at 110 tons, is more 'wimpy' than the AEM-7, which is 11 or 12 tons lighter (the ALP-44 is the same, the ALP-46 is very slightly heavier). The AEM-7 hasn't turned up any cracking problems in the decades that design has been in use (Since the 60's if you include the RC-1, etc), nor has the '44. I don't think the 46 will, given it's effectively an americanized Class 101, which has held up well (IIRC, the FRA weight penalty was 'only' 4 tons).
The overweight HHP-8? It's cracking up. The LIRR locomotives are too, and they're really heavy.
(Of course, a simple look at things will result in the realization that you hit a vicious circle with weight in some applications - weight gives high forces which requite more metal which adds weight which bumps up the forces which requires more metal.... Also, see why nobody uses bricks as structural elements in tall buildings, Actually, I believe the limit is about 8 floors, after which it is effectively impossible, hence the need for steel framing)
According to the FRA they do. I suppose it's like all the 'friends of the FRA' keep saying: "If the train had a headon with an SD90, we'd want a heavy engine and train to take the brunt of the impact." In a collision, especially in a head-on with another moving object, weight does help, it cancels out the energy that the other object has. That's why SUV-sedan accidents look like they do, one is utterly mashed, the other damaged but salvagible. However, that weight that you are carrying around 'just in case' can put tremendous strain on the locomotive, since trains are subjected to large roll and yaw forces. This is less noticible in a 70 mph train simply because the track deflections that cause the problems come fewer and further between, both giving the train time to recover, and also lessening the force of the motions. At 150mph, minor track problems become something more, they come much closer together, and also the train hits them moving much faster, which means that a greater force is applied, the train cannot recover from the last deflection before it hits another, which leads to the engine becoming almost like a pendelum, side to side and end to end, or a mass spring oscilator, up and down, with things like the yaw dampers, suspention, and possibly the side sills taking the energy from the forces.
Now that I think if it, it makes sense, the train is travelling at 150 mph, there is a 2 inch deflection that rises for 10 feet, and then falls for 10 feet, then falls more to 2 inches below average track height, and then rises again to the average track height, and continues over and over. Now this example may be extreme, I have more faith in the MOfW crews for Amtrak than to allow this kind of situation to happen, but under these condition, the train would constantly be subjected to a bending motion, and that bending motion would be pushing on the side sills, exactly the problem.
I hope I answered you question, and Is my example above too extreme for track, what would the normal deflections on the NEC be?
Would a better aproach to crash safty be to utilize crumple zones as cars use on the lead cars (engines in most cases) on both the freight train and passenger train. This could be implimented by designing teh front most portion of the trains to smash istead of resist the energy force. A 100 mph head on crash no matter how heavy both trains are is going to be tragic.
Would a better aproach to crash safty be to utilize crumple zones as cars use
No.
...by designing teh front most portion of the trains to smash istead of resist the energy force.
The front portion would need to be about 300ft long for a passenger train, and more than 1,000 ft long for a heavy coal train.
AEM7
I have hands on experience with Bombardier 142s...these trainsets would run sooo smooth on decent trackage. TA demanded a batch of upgrades...Bomba ran test trains and everyone was happy. Bomba did file a countersuit on the Acela...claim was trackage tears apart the trainset...I agree. A responsible business person does not sell a product that will not perform as specified...the TA has 1,4 billion dollars of R142 junk and I do not need to get into the Acela debacle
I agree. It is an interface between the track and the vehicle. One afects the other. And we know that most American trackwork sucks. Sure there are hundreds of milse of really first class tracks, but there is enough of the other kind to beat the cracks out of any locomotive.
It seems to me that HSR *needs* its own ROW, probably with some sort of guideway rather than a pair of 1800's vintage rails.
Keep the heavy freight and local (commuter) trains on existing rails, but plan new systems for new high speed servicees. I mapped out a route, following I-80 from CHI to NYC (it is 720 miles), at 200 mph you could figure a four hour trip (including stops). *THAT* is worth doing.
But it is quite impossible on existing ROW no matter how you slice it. It needs to be a high speed *system*
And it *could* cary containerized package express, mail and light freight as well, just as airliners do now.
Elias
I agree. It is an interface between the track and the vehicle. One afects the other. And we know that most American trackwork sucks... It seems to me that HSR *needs* its own ROW, probably with some sort of guideway rather than a pair of 1800's vintage rails.
We've talked about this before also. High speed track upgrades are very expensive. It's almost always cheaper to spend the $ on the vehicle rather than the track, especially over North American distances.
A suitably designed vehicle could traverse a realigned freight track at very high speeds. Suspension system needs work, but even if the track tolerance isn't all that good, it's possible to build a high speed vehicle. Might be a damn expensive vehicle, but it will be cheaper than trackwork.
AEM7
"A suitably designed vehicle could traverse a realigned freight track at very high speeds. Suspension system needs work, but even if the track tolerance isn't all that good, it's possible to build a high speed vehicle. Might be a damn expensive vehicle, but it will be cheaper than trackwork."
I agree that dedicated ROW is far too expensive in the US. But how much does good track on an existing ROW (to be used by both freight and passenger trains) cost per mile?
I agree that dedicated ROW is far too expensive in the US. But how much does good track on an existing ROW (to be used by both freight and passenger trains) cost per mile?
THIS IS NOT SO! In the long run we can not affor NOT to do this.!
Highspeed cannot mix well with slower trains,especially the way American freight is 'scheduled'.
Look at a damn interstate highway.... *that* cost much more per mile than a well constructed guideway. We are spending FORTUNES to build and maintain Interstate Highways (and rightly so) and Airports and air traffic control for vehicles that hare high poluters and of subious service in their various services.
Good regional HSRs would eliminate all flights under 300 miles (and most trips are a serises of 300 mile connecting flights anyway!) and nibble at aome intermediate travel (such as the NYC-CHI route I have suggested), while highway is not the most productive venue for trips between 400 and 700 miles, given certain parameters. (i.e. 1 passenger, business trips).
There is more to be considered than the bottom line in dollars. Bottom lines also include energy consumption, air and water quality, enviromental disruption. Just ask the NIMBYs, they'll give you the complete litany of issues with highway and air traffic.
Elias
THIS IS NOT SO! In the long run we can not affor NOT to do this.!
Yes we can. Price it right and we can do anything.
Highspeed cannot mix well with slower trains,especially the way American freight is 'scheduled'.
True, but that has to change. It's a two-pronged thing. The trend in logistics is that shippers are demanding more schedule on-time performance than ever before. It might not be cost-effective to run trains on time, but then, it might be. Santa Fe does a pretty good job of running trains on-schedule and gets paid extra for it. There is synergy here. On-time and faster freight, on-time passenger trains, infrastructure designed to allow overtakes, etc. From an analytical perspective, mixing fast and slow trains is difficult and capacity consuming. However, with a suitably designed infrastructure, it might not be so bad, especially if the cost of capacity for a fast/slow mix is weighed against the cost of capacity for having dedicated fast and slow railroads (which is what you're proposing).
Look at a damn interstate highway.... *that* cost much more per mile than a well constructed guideway.
Not true. Four-lane turnpikes over flatland are around $2 million per mile. Track over flatland are also around $2 million per mile. So for one single track railroad over flatland, you could buy a four-lane turnpike. If you need double-track, double the price.
nibble at aome intermediate travel (such as the NYC-CHI route I have suggested
What is your NYC-CHI route? Mine goes via Washington, and I believe that is the most economic routing. Mine also involves mixed freight and passenger route along the former B&O. Four tracks in urban areas, two tracks in rural areas with freight cut-offs.
Bottom lines also include energy consumption, air and water quality, enviromental disruption.
If you run a bunch of trains that nobody rides, that does more damage to environment than ten autos that someone is using for a purposeful trip. When considering energy consumption, it isn't just the gas tank. The energy invested in building the infrastructure also count.
AEM7
BNSF also has some first-class straight track which it spends $$ maintaining. Do your homework before spouting nonsense about ROW maintenance.
Lets see if Acela will crack there. Will it?
We don't really care. However good ATSF's track, it's not good for 150mph, except maybe in a few places and with special permit while all the other traffic is shut out.
AEM7
BNSF also has some first-class straight track which it spends $$ maintaining. Do your homework before spouting nonsense about ROW maintenance.
(1) I said nothing about RoW maintenance.
(2) Try reading my post.
AEM7
I did read your post. My comment stands.
You need tutoring in the English Language.
Now, Now, you two. Lets not get hostile. Take a yoga lession. Meditate.
Yoga...hmm well, I can eat yogurt. Is that OK?
I invite "AEM7" to eat yogurt too - low fat, with active cultures...
Yeah, about time I went out for lunch :)
Actually, I recommend Phoenecia in Boston, not far from MGH. (spelling??) Great Middle Eastern food (incl yogurt)
Yogurt is welcome.
Bombardier supplys cheap parts
It begins in an F and ends in a G and sounds like "Og".
I'm clueless. -Confused-
Frog. The Bombardiers are f**king French.
Thanks.
The do, but not in the United States. It's a conspiracy to get you guys! And, so far, it's working better than anybody expected!
-Robert King
New York has a school program called BOCES, which was originally created for technical education but instead is a lessor of facilities to schools. Bombardier subway cars are assembled in upstate New York by people who clearly don't know what they're doing. I can attest to Bombardier equipment working JUST fine and lasting a long time in Canada.
How are those T1's doing in Toronto? :)
The T1s are doing so well that the TTC has publicly stated that they'd like to order more of them and were planning to, contingent on funding, about a year or two ago to buy enough T1s to ostensibly replace the H4s and the H5s.
The interesting thing in the numbers presented on the 'It's big, It's real and it's heading our way' posters campaigning for funding for replacement subway cars was that the total number of subway cars they said needed replacement was the total number of H4s plus H6s, not H4s plus H5s. In 10 years, the H4s may be old enough to go but the H5s are about two years newer than those, but they'd prefer to retire the H6s which are the notorious basketcases I've written about here before. But no funding is in the offing, which means that the subway fleet as it is will continue in use for the forseeable future...barring another H6 catastrophe.
-Robert King
So therefore one could conclude that either Canadians are either incredibly stupid, OR the specifications to which Bombardier have been building things for the US market are ... well ... flawed. :)
Wonder if there's difficulties in converting millimeters to inches? Although that really shouldn't be much of a problem for the good citizens of Plattsburgh ... after all, GUNS have been in millimeters for quite some time now, even in the US. Heh. Sorry, can never resist a cheap shot. Bang!
U.S. Army failed in trying to duplicate German MG-42 during WW2 and after because of Metric/SAE conversion problems....what they did get nearly thirty years later was the M60. Was at an antique tractor show and found a great deal on a stainless steel four way caliper...linear scale...it was flawed...one scale was metric and the other in decimal inches. CI Peter
I rest my case. Think Metric. :)
The M60 is a remarkably versatile weapon, flexible, eminently deployable. US.50 caliber is still the world's best heavy (single-barrel, non-Gatling) machine gun. It will rip right through light armor.
The German MG42 was a family o weapons. Bipod mounted - a light support weapon for a squad. Tripod mounted, a "medium machine gun." Add quick-change barrels and an extra ammunition belt, and you get a heavy machine gun (judged by rate of fire achievable), but without the penetration or extra-long range of the .50.
Carlos Hathcock, one of the US Marine Corp's best marksmen in history, occasionally used a .50 set to fire single shots with a telescopic sight. He was one of the two most feared soldiers in Vietnam (feared by the North Vietnamese and VC).
Mah Duece still rules BUT M1A/M14 ULTRAMATCH remains the Mercedes in a field of Ford Escorts. Canada produced Garand...who became an American citizen...Bombardier R142s are like Ross Rifles. Check out the Carlos Hathcock edition of the Springfield M1A. I also RCBS. Know my tools...carry 1911A1 Gold Cup with 'Lebanese mods.' Would love to have ANY version of a Barret Light .50...its creation was inspired by Carlos Hathcocks phenomenally sucessful experiments. CI Peter
Hey Juice, you need one of those semi auto M2's that pop up in Shotgun News BoomBoomBoomBoomBoom.
Bot ... all this talk of munitions by transit employees and their sympathizers should remind all "customers" that it's not nice to whine and complain. After all, it's apparently "geese season" ... heh.
Postal carriers were getting nervous about delivering THAT newspaper three times a month long before 'assault' and 'Oklahoma' became common wordage. The good old days are gone...paper shrunk at least sixty percent!!! Biggest legal deal I did not take up on: single shot .308 Winchester conversion for Colt 1911A1. Just one BOOM!!!
M1/M2 carbines are now illegal to posses along with a host of other hardware. I am a responsible possesor and user...the weekend after 911 I was checking out my big Winchester on my property in New Jersey and touched the trigger...prayed for three days. Projectile probably grounded out two miles or more away...no new of dead cows. Moo
If Kawasaki can make 142s work, the bad specification explanation doesn't fit except for the Acela. The 142s seem to be bad manufacturing, followed by 'silly' specifications that aren't necessarily bad. It's either the metric or these people in Plattsburgh find Robertson screwdrivers baffling.
Unfortunately, incredibly stuipid Canadians exist - there are a bunch in Toronto that are nothing more than sheep. "Baaah, why bother thinking for myself when someone else can shove their self-serving agenda and propeganda into my brain?" If you need some of these people down in New York to push defective subway cars up and down the lines, let me know and I'll be happy to send a bunch of these people down.
Guns are in mm so these people should have at least some experience with metric. Which is heavier, a Kg of lead or a 1000 g of feathers?
-Robert King
surely the 1000g of frateherS?
Kawasaki makes US delivered R142A trainsets checked in Yonkers work. Bombardier R142 trainsets assembled in Plattsburgh require extensive modification and inspection in my shop. Both share major assemblies including the couplers which fell apart on the #2 line. Kaw has a better track record than Bomba in dealing with defects...but word out is that they may have better ways in hiding things. Chances are that TA will have Kaw do the same inspections of the same couplers/linkbars that Bomba is now doing to insure passenger and system safety. Trainsets don't have 'lemon laws.' CI Peter
Well thank you kindly for your offer of boobs ... alas, we're full up down here. Off to Newfie then. :)
Let's not forget that the GGI and P5's had cracking trucks thoughout their careers. The Pennsy men kept painting them black and welding them so the FRA squad wouldn't notice, and they just put up with them
No FRA when GG1's & P5's plied the rails. The welding didn't occur two years after they were introduced, but decades later - 1950's on - A quarter century of reliable service later. The FRA came about in the 1980's, long after the P5's had passed and the beginning of the twilight of the GG1.
The cracking, BTW, was in the massive cast steel frames, not in the motors' leading/trailing trucks. The thing that killed the GG1 was the fact that the capacity to make castings that big was no longer available. The GG1 was the Energizer Bunny of electric locomotives - they just kept going and going and going. We shall not see its like again.
There are slight diffferences between the R142 and R142A. I will try to list some not obvious differences.
The LED light above the side doors is different on the two models. On the R142's the light protrudes and is in the shape of a semicircle with a flat top. on the R142A's the light is flat.
THe metal covering the exterior speaker on the R142's is much larger than the speaker itself. The cover on the R142A is smaller and much more of an exact fit.
The LED side sign on the R142 is dim and goes blank. It is also of POOR quality when compared to that of the 142A. The space where the big number is located ( 5 for example) the number is made up of small dots which are dim. It resembles that of somethng from a dot matrix printer. The side sign on the R142A is very bright, does not go blank, and the number ( 6 for example) resembles something from a high quality laser printer.
The R142A uses vandal proof Robinson screws, whereas the R142 does not.
Any Additions?
Verry interesting, I have only had a limited amount of time on the R142s, so I cannot back you up on any of that, but I do notice that the R142s from Bombardier apparantly fared worse than the R142As from Kawasaki in your comparison. Is it just that bombardier sucks so much? Or did Kawasaki gain expertise building the R110s?
The R142's simply suck ass when compared to the R142A's. It is absolutely AMAZING how something derived from the very same specs turned out oh so different. Both vendors gained experience from the R110 series cars, as both Kawasaki ( R110A) and Bombarrdier ( R110B) built protoype trains.
Someone answer me this: There are future option orders pending for the R142's ( 7800 series). The TA does not plan on exercising these options , do they?
There are no remaining options on the R-142 and R-142A orders. A week or two ago, someone said there were, but he (she?) was wrong.
David
I know of no future R142 option purchases and with the coupler debacle going full force TA will not purchase anything Bombardier except for parts. CI Peter
YAAAAY!!!!!
I wouldn't cheer too loud. Kawasucki isn't anything to write home about either. Oh, if only St. Louis Car was still in business....
--Kawasucki isn't anything to write home about either--
And why not??
Kawasaki makes kool jetski's and you know it. Bombsuckier makes just OK snow mobiles.
On this note, I can't comment, since I neither JetSki nor Snowmobile. I just know the quality (or lack thereof) of Japanese cars.
--I just know the quality (or lack thereof) of Japanese cars--
If you remove ( or lack thereof) from the above sentence, you'd get the picture of today's Japanese car. I own ( well , lease) a Pilot, and love every minute behind the wheel. Perhaps you could test drive one?
No, I think in the meantime, I'll stick with my Buick Riviera. But were I to test drive a new car, I would probably check out the new Cadillac CTS as well as the Lincoln. I'm for American cars all the way :o)
You mean St. Louis Crap Co. who couldn't seem to quite get the R38s, 40s, 42s or 44s right? The same St. Louis car that cut corners on all of those subway cars, which are now having rust problems on their roofs, because they were too cheap to build a quality, all-stainless car like Budd did with the R32s. Is that the St Louis Car Co. that you're talking about?
Kawasaki rules. So do Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Hitachi and Sony. Sorry to diasppoint you. Perhaps in your parallel universe, Japanese products stink, but here in this universe, Japan builds excellent products and the R142A's are no exception. Yeah, you heard that right, R142A's are excellent products. Kawasaki rules and that's all there is too it!
You're my new best friend!!!!!
What he said! It's all true! And don't forget Mitsubishi and their Heavy Industries!
actually it was the TA that was cheap --
there were 5 options provided by the carbuilders for the 38
fully stainless by 1-Budd and 2-SLC
Composite carbon and stainless, by 3-budd and 4-SLC
Carbon Steel by 5-SLC
they went with 4 wich i think was the lightest and cheapest choice
The 40s problems were the fault of the city or state, who wanted the sland nose
the 42s didnt have problems
the 44s depended on untested new tech(so did the 46s)
so was it really SLCs fault that some cars turned out bad?
You mean St. Louis Crap Co. who couldn't seem to quite get the R38s, 40s, 42s or 44s right? The same St. Louis car that cut corners on all of those subway cars, which are now having rust problems on their roofs, because they were too cheap to build a quality, all-stainless car like Budd did with the R32s. Is that the St Louis Car Co. that you're talking about?
Kawasaki rules. So do Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Hitachi and Sony. Sorry to diasppoint you. Perhaps in your parallel universe, Japanese products stink, but here in this universe, Japan builds excellent products and the R142A's are no exception. Yeah, you heard that right, R142A's are excellent products. Kawasaki rules and that's all there is to it!
You took the words right out of my mouth about St. Louis.
If there is any old company that makes a comback to the rail business it's BUDD. Budd is still in business too, they just don't make railcars anymore.
I would like to see Budd go back into the railcar business too. Maybe they could do a new DMU, one that looks like Bombardier's Talent, but stainless steel. It might even be more reliable, given Bomb's recent track record.
It's just unfortunate that the curse on the 2 and 5 lines remains and their brand-new cars are lemons. Why'd the TA have to put the Kawasaki cars on the 4 and 6? Why couldn't they have given 2 and 5 line riders the nicer and more reliable R142As?
And screw my line with lemons... i don't think so.
GO 6 train!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're my best friend too!!!
Then there's only one solution - for me, that is - and that's to move to Pelham Bay or Woodlawn. Then I will no longer be subject to riding those Bombsuckier lemons on those two cursed subway lines, the 2 and 5, which also manage to both have lousy service. I'll be free of that curse and able to ride nice R142A's on either the 4 or the 6.
Of course I need to get a better-paying job first. Barnes & Noble just doesn't pay enough.
Move to parkchester, decent neighborhood, and cheap rent ( when comapred to manhatten)
My supervisor and his fiance are planning to move there and they cited the rent as being the big reason why.
License deal between Kawasaki and Bombardier. Has to do with number of trainsets purchased through Federal 'loans' along with allocation. Mixed trainsets upon one line is a service nightmare, especially where parts go through warranty and workorders. CI Peter
Why did the TA take an option R142 order for the #5 line, instead of getting R142A's? The TA knew about the 142 problems, so why buy more lemons?
Well they kept going back to St. Louis Crap, even after buying R32s from Budd. I bet if the TA had given the R38, R40, R42 and R44 contracts to Budd, they'd all have a lot fewer rust problems. Maybe the TA just doesn't learn its lessons until it's too late.
Well they kept going back to St. Louis Crap, even after buying R32s from Budd. I bet if the TA had given the R38, R40, R42 and R44 contracts to Budd, they'd all have no rust problems, among other things. Maybe the TA just doesn't learn its lessons until it's too late.
Also:
On the R142A you have the "standard" hatch panels next to each door (upon which you will see advertising). The R142s only have a few of those . The rest are smaller hatch panels or no hatch panel at all.
There is also a large difference in the area between the ceiling and the curved section where they put the car cards (I don't what the exact name of that section would be). The R142A has a wide one where they have the PA speakers. The R142 has a smaller one and no PA speakers.
The door guard lights on the R142A are mounted the frame on each side of the doors. On the R142 they are above the doors.
The cab doors are also mounted differently. The R142A is somewhat flush with the outside (passenger side)wall amking for a nice uniform appearence. The R142 is flush with the inside (T/O side) wall which looks very out place from the passenger side.
It also appears to me (I have not done any measurements) that the section where the interior route LEDs are mounted are of different lengths. They seem longer from the end doors to where they end on the R142s than on the R142As.
The ceiling-mounted railing in the center of the car is mounted differently. The R-142 has mounting brackets of some sort; the R-142A doesn't.
The railings over the seats are also mounted differently -- on the R-142, the vertical railings curve slightly toward the window from the ceiling, while on the R-142A they curve slightly away from the window.
Of course, they make different sounds when they start moving, and while they both tend to have screechy brakes, only the R-142A gives off a loud grunt as it comes to a halt. (R-143's sound just like R-142A's.)
Easiest way outside from the front, the end door's frame is in one single piece on the R142A. On the R142, it's 3, a top, side, and another side. From the exterior side, the R142A has an extra line below the roof line while the R142 doesn't. In the exterior, look at the cab door as someone pointed out. Or look at the opening panels on the walls. They are large on the R142A and small on the R142.
Why does it seem that Bombsuckier did such a half assed job designing and making the R142's???
The answer is, Because it's Bombardier, come on, lately they've screwwed up pretty much everything they can, I even heard that their once vaunted bizjets are coming under fire. At one time they seem to have been a halfway decent company, but lately they have really slipped, why? That I'll leave up to others, but my hypothesis is that they aquired too much too fast and let quality slip in the process. My mother works for Ford Motor Company, and says that people being transfered to her office from Dearborn say the same thing about ford, specifically Jack Nasser. He just went on a buying spree, purchasing Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo, and a host of other car company's and part suppliers that slip my mind now. As a result, Ford dipped into it's QA department and we end up with massive recalls on Focuses, possible Tire-Vehicle problems on Explorers and Expiditions, and god only knows what else. If this is true, then once thing settle down and Bombardier gets all it's divisions sorted out, perhaps then they will be prepared to deliver quality goods.
Or maybe they just suck, either way.
Bombardier sucks. Always have. Look at the R62A's. They messed up so bad that the TA threatened to cancel the contract. Why did the TA go back after that experience? God knows...
For one thing, once the initial problems with the R-62A were addressed, the cars became reliable -- VERY reliable.
David
I like BOMBbashing. Just cause its sooooo easy to take a shot.
I wonder how the Deutsche Bundesbahn and other German railways are doing with their Talent DMUs, another recent Bombardier product. They ordered a lot of Talents. I hope they haven't had to sideline them and pull older equipment off of scraplines.
R142's have a propulsion system built by alstom, where the R142a's have thier system built by bombardier. Don't you think thats weird?
Yes, but why didn't BOMBsuckier use its own propulsion in its own cars?
Just as I've often wondered why Flxible New Look buses have a big "GM" stamped on the engine block. Weren't they supposed to be rival manufacturers?
FlyerLover wrote:
Yes, but why didn't BOMBsuckier use its own propulsion in its own cars?
Because it wasn't theirs yet.
The Kawasaki-built R-142As use Adtranz propulsion gear, while the Bombardier-built R-142s use units from ALSTOM. Bombardier later swallowed Adtranz, but the connections didn't exist as they do now when those contracts went to bid.
While Adtranz is now a part of Bombardier, it's inaccurate to say that Bombardier propulsion systems are behind the Kawasaki cars.
Mark
Kool info. Thanks!
none whatsoever !! BOTH have NO RAIL-FAN-WINDOW
( foam inc. ) ........!!
none whatsoever !! BOTH have NO RAIL-FAN-WINDOW
( foam inc. ) ........!!
they look like beer cans on wheels !!!!
I'd estimate that I've seen more than 2 dozen 12-9s over the last 20 years. This morning, for the first time in those 20 years I was on a train involved in a 12-9 or whatever the LIRR calls it. Train 2007 out of Ronkonkoma - a guy(???) jumped in front of the train between Brentwood and Deer Park. I guess that we were doing about 73-74 MPH at the time. It was odd because I felt the train go into emergency and then we heard a 'wave' of ballast hit the underside of the train. At that speed, the body ended up under the 10th car of the train.
I guess the most interesting part was the response as contrasted with the NYCT. The TA response is quick, kill power, remove the body and restore service (average is under 1 hour). The LIRR by contrast was not as fast. We sat for 20 minutes before power was removed and the first police arrived. We waited for 1 hour 20 minutes until a rescue train was brought along side and we were evacuated.
Normally, we arrive at Penn Station at 6:18 or so. This AM we arrived at 8:20 with the LIRRs apologies.
That area is very rural, if you know what I mean, compared to the city. That right of way is open to any body who might just decide to wander onto the tracks. Sad foor the victims family, and the crew who had to deal with this unpleasant surprise in the morning. What kind of headache do they have to face as part of the investigation?
Pine-Aire Drive and Executive Court rural? Maybe years ago, but now the only part that's "rural" is a stretch of pine barrens on either side of the Sagtikos Parkway and behind Heartland Industrial Park. There's a golf course, whole bunch of factories, Deer Park train station, Sagtikos Parkway, residential neighborhood south of the area, the Sag was a mess this morning with cars backing up onto it trying to get off at Pine Aire Drive.
Too bad about the person who got hit
wayne
Rural my ass. I live 2 miles away from there. It's not rural its very built up
MOOOO. Step in front of the trainset . Splat
Part of the delay in this case may be due to longer response times for the Suffolk police. You are out in the 'burbs, with fewer cops patrolling more real estate.
Part of the delay in this case may be due to longer response times for the Suffolk police. You are out in the 'burbs, with fewer cops patrolling more real estate.
Someone must have wasted precious time by calling 911 instead of the nearest Dunkin' Donuts.
No, you need to call 636-555-347-2.
Help me Spring Shield!
Monster put in wallet
I got the 6:57 from Ronkonkoma to Flatbush Avenue, and it ran about 30 minutes late thanks to the 12-9. I saw the tarp-covered stiff as we approached Deer Park station about 7:45.
You are correct, the LIRR's handling of the situation was way sub-optimal. And 20 minutes for the first cops to arrive?
Did you happen to have a scanner with you? What was the activity like on the LIRR/Suffolk PD(Need a trunking scanner) freqs?
I guess the most interesting part was the response as contrasted with the NYCT. The TA response is quick, kill power, remove the body and restore service (average is under 1 hour).
I guess it depends on the circumstances. Yesturday, there was one at Sutphin, that went on at least 2 hours. I had one New Year's Eve (or rather an A train that left me stuck with no power) at Clinton&Washington Aves and that was about 1 1/2 hours. And I think it really has nothing to do with the TA's response but NYPD. Depending on what happened, they may perform a longer investigation.
The one at Clinton-Washington was an unusual case because it involved 2 trains. The victim was riding on the roof of the first - got knocked off the roof - and bounced into the path of the 2nd train. Those types of investigations take longer to complete.
And you are correct about the one at sutphin blvd. That incident lasted 125 minutes. However, if you add up all of the LIRR delays,I'd bet that this one lasted 250 - 300 minutes.
As has been mentioned, the specifics of any particular incident can alter the time needed for getting service started again -- but I do share the perception that it takes much longer on the commuter lines on average.
I think there are two reasons for this -- one of which can be gleaned from the very first line of your original post.
You've seen more than 2 dozen 12-9's in 20+ years. How many LIRR employees can say the same? Then look at it from an emergency service point of view. In the city, there's one police department and one EMS. So even if the particular officer responding hasn't been involved with a 12-9 before, I'd imagine there's a set of procedures in place to get things cleared and rolling again. In the 'burbs you've got multiple jurisdictions such that any one may only see a 12-9 every 5 years or more. They have no procedure or even a clue as to where to start.
Second reason I can think of has to do with delays. There's a much greater incentive to get things cleared when trains are backing up almost immediately. On the commuter lines, outside rush hour there may not be another train coming along for an hour -- so there's less motivation to speed things up.
CG
That's a pretty insightful analysis. The conductor on that particular train was heard saying that she had gone 22 years without having to see "this". I was on the job about a month (after training, of course)when I had to respond to a teen crushed to the roof of a #1 train. By the way, that 20 year figure is actually misleading. I was on the road less than 4 years before I became a supervisor. Most of the 12-9s that I attended were in my first 3+ years.
RCI???
RCI, yes. Real RCI - worked the road, Jay St., W4th St., and 168th St. In those days (the days of P-wire) the fleet MDBF was about 16,000 miles and we were known as the "marines of transit".
I sure remember how it once was and how you guys were the most popular date on the subways. Didn't even have to wear lipstick to be popular with the crews. :)
I'm sure you're happier now too.
When I was attending College in the early 70s I used to be impressed by the RCI that I frequently saw responding to my trains on the Queens Blvd line. That and a very understanding wife were what gave me the push to become one.
The work back in the 80s was hard, it was hot and it was certainly dangerous. I'd be under trains in wet, hot, & smelly tunnels several times a week. I'd face angry passengers when i'd discharge a train and angry crews when I didn't. Back in those days, RCIs were the final word - except for the occasional motor instructor with balls. Once we got onto as train, it was our train.
No, Kevin, actually 'RCI' was the best job I ever had. Yeah, the money is much beter now and I don't need to get dirty too often. I'm glad that the older trains are much more reliable now, too. However, it would seem that the R-142/R-142A/R-143 are going to make the RCI job more exciting again - at least in the short term. Happy days may be here again. Too bad the old time RCIs aren't.
When I was attending College in the early 70s I used to be impressed by the RCI that I frequently saw responding to my trains on the Queens Blvd line. That and a very understanding wife were what gave me the push to become one.
Hey, I'm impressed by this. So what does RCI stand for? When you say discharge a train, that means put the passengers off, right? It's interesting that this RCI job obviously involves a management facet yet it's such a down-to-earth crawling under the carriage job where you had to have immaticulate mechanical knowledge. It's hard to find people who can be good RCI's, I presume, if only because some people with sufficient mechanical knowledge would find it difficult to deal with customers without treating them like machines.
I had thought that a lot of the management should get out a little more and see what's going on. You know, like shop managers should attend to field failures, demand forecasters and operations planners should ride the train in the rush hours, etc. Looks like RCI is a good position to put people through before they become yardmasters and the like.
AEM7
RCI = Road Car Inspector
Are they still called RCI's or have they wimped out THAT title too?
They're still RCIs.
David
Whew. I was concerned that maybe they would have had their titles changed to "implement operator" (I/O) or "road operations technician" (ROT) or some such nonsense. :)
I had looked at a title out of union service 'electronic equipment maintainance specialist' but now comes up 'new technology trainset specialist' which is supposed to hire Bombardier/vendor techs outside of the Civil Service process. Who was responsible for proper inspection? During the coupler/linkbar inspection process, someone slipped with a drill boring into the castings. THAT R142 trainset should have been logged with the car desk and pulled permanently out of service until the damaged parts were replaced. These are the guys they want to hire at better salaries than mine. 'Yah Mon, we fix your train right OK.'
I once had the UNIQUE classification of "Cable Television Program Equipment Technician, SG-21" ... it was abolished when Paturkey came in and so I became a "Cable Television Specialist II, SG-21" because the agency didn't want to let me go. Titles come and go, provisionals uber alles. :)
But wheras I *built* things under the original title, the new title put me in a position of being an official "spare tire" ... I got paid to surf the internet and inspect coffee percolators. Couldn't stand it for long - when you're WORKING, the day goes fast. When you're sitting at a desk looking to see if the title page at yahoo.com has changed in the last 5 minutes, the day drags on worse than attending meetings or sitting in on study groups. Nothing makes you feel more worthless than sitting on your ass at taxpayer expense.
Question: if you are inspecting a trainset, why do you need a drill? Did you mean that the inspector had found the trainset ARRIVED in the damaged condition, or the inspector had damaged it? Why would the inspector need a drill?
I agree with Selkirk's point about "spare tyre". Can be very boring and depressing.
AEM7
"I had thought that a lot of the management should get out a little more and see what's going on. You know, like shop managers should attend to field failures,"
In the 1980s there were less than 400 RCIs (IIRC) out of a workforce of roughly 5,000 Car Equipment employees. So, while most current maintenance shop managers came from the hourly ranks, not too many are former RCIs. As such, I consider myself lucky. However, I do believe that because I ride the system to and from work 4-5 days each week, I do remain in touch with what's going on out in the real world. I don't believe that in that respect I'm unique either. I know other managers who ride to and from work. Sadly, it's not close to 100%. In other words, I agree with you totally.
Just a couple of years before you joined the metal-beating corps, i had several encounters with the mighty RCI's, usually door beatings were administered after we'd pull ahead, RCI guarding the door panel that wouldn't close until we were clear of the platform. Yada yayad, the usual with stubborn Arnines.
But I had a few close encounters with a few of the veterans that were nothing short of amazing. One incident, had a bad pipe that was leaking JUST enough that no matter what you did, wouldn't take power, couldn't get the air up high enough for that last relay to kick. Climbed under the train between the 6th and 7th car with a wad of duct tape and emptied the puppy somewhere down yonder. We went, made it all the way up to 72nd St where it got to sit for a tow motor. We MOVED though.
The truly amazing one was a problem I had with the controller stand. Got to 47th St, missed the mark, parked the brake handle, let go of the deadman, got my thunk and pump, went out and punched. Came back in, settled back in, released and tried to pull. COntroller handle jammed tighter than a welded beam of steel. Wouldn't turn. AT ALL. Visions of second car ops with conductor and RCI up front, though you had to be in a huge world of hurt to get authorization to do that, so close after the Roosevelt Avenue episode and this RCI opened up the stand, futzed around with the bottom of the rod, sparks shooting this way and that, reseated the spring and we were good to go all the way to 205th. Never forgot that one. I never dissed an RCI again. :)
I would like an RCI position IF I could keep M/F daylight hours RDO S/S. I'm no rocket scientist (have launched a bunch of custom projectiles well beyond 3000 FPS) but RCIs today do not know the work.
For example: I and crew members are on a #2 with door problems...the platform RCI does not know how to inspect and adjust an R142 door panel.Guys tell me to speak up...we are off duty and i will not get paid teaching R142 door troubleshooting and maintainance...RCI pulls trainset out of service and we transfer to another trainset. I even have the RCI R142 training manual...how much can you remember if English is not your primary language? Best job: yard RCI with normal hours. CI peter
I think most of the RCI's are stationed for rush, after all - if a train dies off peak, you have more flexibility to run around it and let it sit there. But "troubles" is the path to standing on the platform ready to put a bullet in something and pronounce it dead ala Doctor "Bones" McCoy ("it's DEAD, Jim") ...
Hell, I should try to be an RCI. I have a feeling that I would fall into the "not know the work" category though. I don't think I have the physical fitness to constantly climb up and down and under trainsets either...
If they're having trouble finding qualified RCI's, it's going to be a rough ride...
AEM7
If civil service PAID sufficiently, there'd be plenty. After spending a couple of weeks with car manuals, I'd be in a position to do the work and have the necessary experience ... but between the B$ of government work and the starvation wages, no WAY would I apply.
When I first became a road motorman I was gung-ho as a kid let loose in a toy factory. Right down to having my handles, keys and even my brake plug chrome plated. I was working a Sea Beach out of 71/Contl. Ave. and decided to break-in my newly acquired handles. It felt a little tight going into the brake valve but I didn't pay it much mind. But when I got to Coney Island the realization set in that I couldn't get the brake handle out of the brake valve. I called for an RCI and nice gentleman by the name of Carmine came to my rescue. With a shoe paddle, a lot of elbow grease and the right angle he was able free it. He politely explained to me to leave the "special handles" at home in the future. He gave me an old beat up handle from his locker and that's the one I turned in for a new issue. His report never mentioned "chrome plated handles". He kept me out of an embarrasing situation. I have always had the utmost respect for car inspectors. Even more after that episode.
Heh. Yeah, I remember being on top of the world when I got mine (and butt plug on chain too) but never went QUITE that nuts. Showed off my pretties to my friends too when I got home (all they were interested in was a fast joyride right then and there) ... and mine were plenty shiny enough. Funny, second day on the road and I had trouble charging. Turns out that the teat wasn't cut properly and had already lost a piece down on the bottom. Had to turn in my brand new chewer the second day out. Nice part is they actually brought it OUT to me rather than me having to go to the desk for one.
Never did find the piece that broke off, but I'm sure somebody had a problem seating theirs and it was eventually "found" ... heh.
Speaking of brake handles, when I was a Conductor I worked with an old-time Motorman on the Canarsie Line. He had worked the BU and Q cars in addition to the Standards and R9s. He promised me his brake handle, the one with the hammer head used to seat the jumpers on the Qs, when he retired. He did and it has remained a coveted part of my rapid transit collection to this day. They don't make handles, and more importently the men that worked with them, like that anymore.
You mean this one? :)
You bet your bottom dollar!! I see your also a member of the special brake handle club.
Sadly, nope ... I actually turned mine in (along with my keys and badges) for that final check. The one I linked to was at Joe Korner, but I saw them in real life. Still in use on some work trains in C division at the time. Heavy bastards too. :)
It's great to see that people used to take pride in their work. It's hard to find new people who will feel the same way about getting a new brake handle. Or am I wrong? I damn well hope I'm wrong.
AEM7
hey u guys, today in training my boss mentioned Croton harmon open house because he helps put it together. he says its prolly gonna be on the 19 of october, the next to last saturday in october. i will keep u updated, as i learn more in training.
I have heard on another site that due to the R143's coming in, the G will get more cars. This will result a shifting of R46 to the G.
R32's are coming from CI to Queens. So the end result would be the F would be mostly R32's like the E. I say this is Excellent.
Now F trains will have railfan windows, and loading times will be quicker due to more doors per train. Leave the R46 for the local routes. R32's are quicker anyway. :-)
The same rumor was posted by another poster, Zman (I think) in a car assignments list.
Agh they're taking R-32's off my beloved R line. Although they never were officially assigned to the R from what I heard.
They are not takeing the R32's off the R, there were 5 trains out yesterday(8/21/02). I have not see any R32's on the F in about a week or so, expect there was one train on sSunday that I saw but I fugure it was because of the G.O. overt the week end.
Robert
Where did you see the R-32 train on Sunday -- which piece of the F? I waited almost two hours for one on the Coney Island/G segment with no luck.
Greetings, all...
Just letting everybody know that I'm back home safely in Chicago.
My week in Philly was very productive. As I've already announced here, I've accepted a nice job offer from Kitchen & Associates (how's that for a name?), a 50-person architecture firm located in a converted schoolhouse in Collingswood, New Jersey. I also got registered for classes at Drexel; I'll be taking two classes per quarter for the next four years or so to finish my undergrad degree in architecture.
I've also settled on a place to live. There's an apartment complex called the Village of Stoney Run in Maple Shade, NJ located on highway 73 between highway 41 and I-295. The apartment complex, while located in the midst of suburbia, is secluded back off the highway amongst a heavily-wooded area. If figure if I can't live in the city, then my next choice would be to live in the woods. The apartments are very spacious, and have most of the amenities that I was looking for. My paperwork is still being processed, so we'll see whether or not I get approved. (I also have backup plans in place if I don't get approved.)
On Friday, I met up with Jersey Mike at 30th Street Station, where he had just arrived from Connecticut for a weekend home from school. We didn't do much railfanning, but we rode the Regional Rail from 30th Street to Market East, and then transferred to PATCO to Haddonfield, NJ. I gave him a ride home from Haddonfield and met his parents before we parted ways.
Saturday, I headed up to New York City. I drove up I-295 to Hamilton, NJ where I parked my rental car (a nice 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix) and waited for the New Jersey Transit train to Penn Station. During my wait on the platform, a couple Amtrak trains pulled by AEM-7's roared through the station at 125 MPH. Impressive.
Once in New York, I wandred around a bit on my own before meeting up with the SubTalk crowd for lunch. While wandering around on my own, I took a (3) express from Penn to 72nd on a train of R-62's, where I grabbed some breakfast at a nice little bagel place at 77th and Amsterdam. From there I walked to 86th, where I waited in sweltering heat about 20 minutes for a (1) local to Times Square. By the grace of God, the R-62 I eventually boarded was as cold as a meat locker and not as crowded as I feared. At Times Square, I transferred to the Shuttle to GCT, where I wandered around a bit and browsed through the Transit Museum gift shop. After grabbing an iced coffee at a nearby Starbucks, I boarded a train of Kawasaki R-142's to Bleeker Street. My first impressions of the R-142's are generally favorable, although I think the R-62's have a much cooler sound, and that stupid "Mr. Ed" voice is annoying as hell. Due to some sort of delay, it was announced that my train would be skipping Bleeker and a couple other stops, so I had to get off at Union Square and wait for the next train. This was my first time at Union Square, and those platform extenders are by far the coolest I've seen! After a short wait, I boarded another train of Kawasaki R-142's to Bleeker.
I walked eastward down Houston Street hoping to browse through the cool surplus store near Broadway-LaFayette, but for some reason it was closed. (Their posted hours indicated that they should have been open.) Having about 30 minutes to kill before lunch at Katz's, so I browsed around a bit in the local shops before heading over to Katz's. After a short wait, I met up with Kevin Walsh and Francis Sibilla. After spending an eternity in line, we finally grabbed a table near the back and chowed down. I barely made a dent in my sandwich, and to be honest, I've had better reubens here in Chicago. My meal seemed to be more about quantity than quality, and several flies buzzing around didn't help my impression. Katz's was okay for just one visit as a tourist, but I wouldn't make it part of my regular rotation of favorite restaurants.
After lunch, Francis parted ways, leaving Kevin and I to our own devices. During intermittent periods between downpours, Kevin led me on a marathon walking tour of lower Manhattan. We covered the Lower East Side, parts of Chinatown, South Street Seaport (where we took a much-needed rest), the financial district, Ground Zero, TriBeCa, and SoHo. I feel like I walked about 30 miles, but it was well worth it. I saw plenty of cool things that I had never seen before, and of course one can't have a better tour guide than Kevin Walsh. Back up at Houston Street and having walked a huge circle around lower Manhattan, Kevin and I caught a northbound (6) train to GCT. Once at GCT, we parted ways; Kevin headed home on the (7), and I waited for a northbound (5) train so that I could experience the Dyre Avenue... And I waited, and waited, and waited... Finally, I boarded a northbound (6) train, where it was announced that the (5) was running as a shuttle between 125th and 149th, and then in another section betweem 149th and Dyre. So, ruling out a six-seat ride to Dyre and back, I rode the (6) to 125th, where I grabbed a very crowded (4) train to 149th, then transferred to a (2) train to 96th/Broadway, and then finally a (1) train to 86th.
Once at 86th, it was about 9:00 PM and I had about 30 minutes to kill before meeting up with David Greenberger, so I headed over to the Starbucks at 86th and Columbus for some much-needed rest and refreshment. 20 minutes later, I finally forced myself out of the comfy chair and walked back down to 86th. I met David just outside fare control, and we took the next southbound (1) train to Columbus Circle. Once at Columbus Circle, we poked around a bit and scoped out some signs of an closed-off crossunder below the IRT tracks before meeting up with RIPTA42HopeTunnel. From 59th we headed northbound on a (C) local train of R-32's -- my only venture to the B-Division all day -- to 168th Street, where we transferred to the IRT once again. This was my first visit to the super-deep stations on the West Side IRT, so this was quite a sight. Due to some sort of delay, we ended up waiting quite a while for our southbound (1) train, even watching one (1) train breeze through the station without stopping before ours finally showed up. Somewhere along the way -- it may have been 96th Street -- we transferred to a (2) train of Bombardier R-142's that had been diverted to the express track, and was making express stops only to 34th. I got off at 34th, as I was pretty exhausted and eager to head back to my hotel room, and we all parted company there.
Back at Penn Station, I waited about 30 minutes for the next NJT train to Trenton, which left around midnight. After a screaming child and his parents mercifully got off at Newark, the rest of the ride was quiet and uneventful. As the train was approaching my stop at Hamilton, a passenger seated a couple rows behind me was carrying on a conversation with the conductor about NJT new bi-level trains. I joined the conversation and mentioned that I was visiting from Chicago, where bi-levels rule the roost. The NJT conductor feared that the introduction of bi-levels would induce mass confusion while boarding and alighting on NJT trains, but I told him that Chicago commuters have been using bi-levels with no problems for many years.
The passenger and I both got off at Hamilton, and continued chatting. Turns out he works for the NYCTA (I forgot exactly what he does, but he had been a conductor for some years before), and we chatted for a while on the platform about trains and such. He's even familiar with nycsubway.org and SubTalk. Before parting ways, he gave me a little MTA booklet outlining "Operators Rules and Regulations" for OPTO. It's been a pretty interesting read so far... Thanks, mystery MTA employee!
I finally got back to my hotel in Maple Shade at around 2:00 AM, and promptly crashed.
Sunday and Monday found me running around and finding a place to live, and I suddenly found myself bored on Tuesday afternoon. So I decided to head out to Atlantic City to see what that place is all about. The thought that came to my mind was: Daytona Beach on steroids. Tacky as hell and brimming with massive casinos and blue-haired ladies sitting in front of slot machines, Atlantic City was just about what I had expected. There's a neat little amusement part on the pier near Trump's Taj Mahal Casino (where I had parked), and the boardwalk itself is a cool place to watch people. Later that day, I made one last visit to Jim's Steaks at 4th and South Streets for yet another big fat steak hoagie. I flew back to Chicago this afternoon, and I'm now preparing to pack all my belongings into cardboard boxes.
I start my new job on Wednesday, September 4th. That prior weekend (Labor Day weekend) will be spent packing up boxes, loading up a U-Haul truck, driving to New Jersey with my car in tow, and unloading said U-Haul truck in New Jersey. Wish me luck!
Thanks to Jersey Mike for meeting up with me in Philly, and thanks to Kevin Walsh, Francis, David Greenberger, and RIPTA42HopeTunnel for meeting me in NYC. Special thanks to Kevin Walsh for the very cool walking tour of lower Manhattan! Watch for some photos to be posted soon.
We've got a nasty thunderstorm bearing down on us now, so I'd better get offline.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Maple Shade won't be wooded for long. Developers have their eyes on that land; condos are inevitable.
True, but most of the woods in this particular apartment complex are located within the property itself, so it's doubtful that those areas would be developed.
I see what you mean, though... Nearby Moorestown appears to have already succombed to the forces of sprawl.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Interesting that an NJT employee is nervous about bilevels. As you pointed out, Metra runs them with no problems; I don't hear anybody on the LIRR complaining either.
Same with the MBTA, MARC, VRE, CalTrain, MetroLink, and GO Toronto. It would seem that commuter rail systems that exclusively run single-level fleets are actually in the minority.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Though I never made into New York last weekend I did manage to tool around the rails of New Jersey with my old buddy Fishbowl and finally got to meet my friend Anon a Mouse. The three of us rode the Newark Subway, PATH and the Bergen-Hudson light rail line. Anon then left at the end of the day when Fishbowl Marty and I rode back in the engine of a New Jersey transit railroad train, thanks to another of new friends, Steve Olsen, a native Brooklynite who works for NJ Transit. It was a great experience and I hope to have even a better time of it when I come to New York in October. It is always great to meet some of my Subtalk buddies face to face. We have a lot in common. I also had one hell of a time at my Aunt and Uncle's 50th Wedding Anniversary Party. I actually met cousins I hadn't seen in close to 50 years. Good to be back on line, though.
Glad you had a good time, Fred... same here, look forward to seeing you again in October!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See, Fred? It IS possible to have fun without riding the Cyclone!
Speaking of the Cyclone, I'm going there this weekend to ride for the FIRST time.....Amazing yes, as I lived in Brooklyn/Queens for much of my childhood in the 70's and 80's. Luckily I did ride the Rockaway Playland coaster before it's demise....but never the Cyclone. Too bad I won't be taking one of the "roller coasters" (subway) to Coney Island, as I'm coming from Suffolk by car, but it should be fun just the same.....would rather have taken the Sea Beach there...well that can't even be done right now anyway.
Whatever you do get in the front car. It is the only way to ride the Cyclone. That first drop is a pure high. Then you careen and twist all over the place as the coaster just roars through its annointed rounds. It is still my favorite ride of all.
Yes it is-----but I wouldn't want to make it a habit. The Cyclone and I were made for each other. And tell Steve thanks again. We'll have even a bigger blast this October. Take care my friend.
Cars 7686-90 and 7706-10 are now testing for 4 service. Only 20 more cars to go before the R-142A delivery ends...
Anyone spot a 3rd R-142A trainset on the 4 in recent days?
7661-70 were the first in, followed by 7671-75 and 7681-85. 7676-80 and 7691-95 should be in revenue service right about now.
-Stef
I think I saw 3 R142A s in service the other day
I saw it going uptown at Union Square around 6:10 this evening. -Nick
Yes, the Parkchester Swinger.
Dammit, Why wont they just die, and stop invading my line? This is Kawasaki stomping ground only.
oh baby !!
....................waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...............!!
I figured this was the one that went through Parkchester...the only redbird left on the #6 line. -Nick
allright !! save one for me this setember !!!
Yep I rode that consist from 42 St-59 St. North Motor was 9137.
I rode 9053-the South Motor.
#9053 6 Lexington Ave Local
Yep I rode that consist from 42 St-59 St. North Motor was 9137.
I rode 9053-the South Motor.
#9053 6 Lexington Ave Local
Probaly the one that was loaned from the #5.
-R142/R143MAN
Visit the Amtrak Modeling Website at
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250/index.html
This is the way it goes. #2 line crew #6 did Deadbirds and Eps...#2 line lends Deadbirds to #5 RTO, #5 line gets #2 Deadbirds....maybe crew #6 is loaned to #5 line to fix problems but skips Flagged cars. One whole solid and stinking day #5 line carbody fixin and changin and lubing. Four bad fluorescent tubes, three out of five bad lightbulbs (series) in end (take out a good bulb and leave socket empty,) HVAC blower motor brushes quarter inch stubs. The good: nothing broken, helped out partner with higher than normal voltage drops in trainline system BUT never got a break past lunchtime. Flagged cars are those with maintainance problems left by an inspector for the next and next and next inspection. Vacation soon. CI Peter
Sorry, couldn't resist when I saw the Photo, by the way, those are R32 Brightliners, apparantly the picture was taken from Long Island City, on November 11, 1964. The picture is from the collection of David Pirmann, and it is available here.
That's awesome.
Ah....the good old days. :)
Sometimes I think I was born in thr wrong era. I wish I could see the subways and El's in the 30's and 40's with my own eyes. :)
you would not want 2 come back to this era !! .......at all ..!!
Well maybe you feel that subways and els were better in that era, and I'll give you that, but I for one would not want to live an era where many people were unemployed, people waited in line for bread, polio and other now eradicated or near eradicated diseases were still an issue and many people didn't have telephones when I can live in an era where I have air conditioning, internet access, vaccinations and a refrigerator full of food, that's not to mention the "trivial" luxuries (they're not really that trivial) of television, cellular phones and radios that don't have to warm up.
A refrigerator full of food is a really big deal, the obesity problems that people now consider a plague, people in the 1930s would have considered an absolute blessing.
You would love to ride the subway in the 1930s, but god forbid if you ever got sick. And what if you needed surgery? Just remember that in 1945, if your heart stopped, you were dead.
Sorry, but a few late lamented el lines wouldn't be worth my life and my well being.
Let's also not forget that if you were around in the 1940s, you probably wouldn't be riding on the New York Subway, you'd probably be "enjoying" an all-expense paid trip to Europe, North Africa or the Pacific, courtesy of Uncle Sam.
I believe that's a Gerry Landau photo.
Bill "Newkirk"
A pre-Waterside and UN School shot of the Brightliners in the East River in the mid-20s -- with the blue doors as God meant them to be. I suppose the barge is headed to 207th St., though given the route the Redbirds are taking out of town and all the low bridges on te Harlem River, I'm surprised they went via the East River.
BTW -- The big building directly behind the cars is the Manhattan VA hospital, Bellevue is on the middle right, Peter Cooper Village is on the middle left, and the ship docked to the left of the barges is actually a high school, the John W. Browne Maritime HS.
>>I suppose the barge is headed to 207th St.<<
Nope, they were off loaded at LIRR Long Island City, the freight spur. They were pulled by a LIRR diesel (on the own wheels) to Fremont and down the Bay Ridge to Parkville Jct. The SBK took over after that down McDonald Ave. to Coney Island yard.
Bill "Newkirk"
Didn't some R-32s come through NY Centrals Yards into to GCT? I recal some kind of publicity thing.
Peace,
ANDEE
They ran a special train to announce the arrival of the R-32s. The contact shoes had to be modified to accomodate the under-riding 3rd rail that is used on the NY Central (now MNRR). Also a NY Central engineer had to ride in the cab with the motorman (that must have been a very tight fit).
IIRC that special run was on my first day of school in second grade - September 9, 1964.
Interesting that that would have taken that route instead of going straight to ther Brooklyn docks, though the track situation down there may have been different in the fall of `64.
How did the R32's get the name "Brightliner"? I never noticed anything bright about them when I take the C train. The new tech trains however are exceptionally bright. Why don't they have a nickname ?
The Brightliners were the first stainless steel equipment to be used in large quantity (600 cars) on NYC subway (the R11 preceded them as did the BMT's Little Zephyr, but these were few in number). Thus, they were quite a bit brighter than anything else around at that time (1964) and you would definitely have noticed then the BIG difference between them and their predecessors. They were gleaming when new, and although they may have lost some of their brightness since then I don't find the newer models to be any brighter.
Probably, "Brightliner" also relates to the fact that the Brightliners were first introduced on the Q Brighton Express.
>>Probably, "Brightliner" also relates to the fact that the Brightliners were first introduced on the Q Brighton Express.<<
Correct, that's the line where they first debuted.
Bill "Newkirk"
I give the people of the TA back in 1964 much credit for the play on words "Brightliner" indicating Bright stainless steel for the Brighton Line.
That inaugural Special which ran into Grand Central had a banner proclaiming, "One of 600 new Brightliners for a better subway."
Yes indeed. Here they are at the dawn of their brilliant careers:
Pretty shiny, I must say. That's how I remember seeing them for the first time in 1965.
Here they are testing on Fred's express tracks.
Love those blue doors!
Finally, this is the line I associate them with:
Nothing like seeing an N train running express along Broadway. And 4th Ave. for that matter.Whoa, shiny!
Hey Hey Hey! Look at the Gum Machines!
That's an OLD picture....
Problem is I remember when they were *NEW*
and *NOW* you tell us that they are almost 40 years old!
IMPOSSIBLE..... *I* can't be *that* Old!
Elias
I know the feeling. I was 8 1/2 in July of 1965. Where have the years gone?
You know? they're still kinda shiny. It would not be impossible for a non-railfan on Queens Blvd. to think they are newer than the very grey R46s. The 32 is not what I'd call beautiful. Kind of a garbage can appearance about it. But it does have a certain spirit about it, and I do have to like it.
:-) Andrew
I think when the 32's first came they must have been pretty impressive. Can you imagine being used to the old painted cars and then for the first time see one of the shiny R32's pull into the station! To us, it's commonplace now, but back then it must've been a sight!
but back then it must've been a sight!
It was.... It was.....
I had always ridden the (F) or the (E) with my dad, and then when I went out on my own I discovered the BMT. The R-27s and 30s looked like trains from anogher planet.....
And then an R-32 flew into the station!
I said "This isn't your fathers R-9!"
Elias
With me, it was the other way around.
I saw and rode on the R-32s first in 1965. Beautiful! When we moved to Jersey two years later, THEN I saw and rode on the R-1/9s. Then on July 20, 1967, I saw the BMT standards for the first time. I thought they were from another CENTURY, never mind another planet. It was, "Good Lord, where did THEY come from? UGH!!"
Re:N Train running express: I agree with you. I really miss that. During my weekend subway rides in my teen years I'd often take the N train from Coney Island to 34th Street for the excellent express runs along 4th Ave and Bway. Even the R-46's weren't too bad although on the weekend you'd almost always get the R-32 (I think it was a 6-car train???)
Wayne
And that is what I remember about sneaking away from where my parents thought I was and riding the Sea Beach from Times Square to Coney and back and back and back. The only difference Wayne was that the Sea Beach was not known as the N back then. It was called the Broadway Express in Manhattan and the Sea Beach in Brooklyn and carried the #4 on his head instead of the N. I'm sure the ride was still the same for both of us. Unfortunately, the TA saw to it that it was curtailed.
Of course, in your day the immortal Triplexes ran on the Sea Beach.
On that last comment you spoke my words exactly. Is the TA listening? Great pictures of my train.
The new tech trains have two nicknames: "rolling pepsi can" for the exterior, and "operating room" for the interior.
Operating room?
I take it you never been in an OR with all those bars surrounding the OR table.
Been there once , but was very well anestetized.
And with very bright lighting.
I see nothing bad about being bright and clean. It makes you want to ride even longer.
I kind of like the interior of the new trains. They may be a little overly bright, but there's no mistaking that they are very clean looking. They look cleaner than a lot of the other trains when they were new. For some reason the R68's always look dirty to me, even when they are clean. Maybe it's the "mirrored" interiors.
The extreme amount of scratchitti makes the 68's look dirty.
Clean? Guess you haven't looked up at the a/c ducts along the ceiling.
What is that stuff anyway?
It's whatever the HVAC system sucks in, I suppose. What I don't understand is why I never see it anywhere else. The ceiling color has something to do with it, but I've never noticed it at all on the older cars.
I must've missed that, I will have to look next time around.
Yes, a SubTalker the other day mentioned something about cars being rented out for ceremonies. With the hospital-like interior on the new cars, I think it would be an ideal setting for the Brist.
Yes, a SubTalker the other day mentioned something about cars being rented out for ceremonies. With the hospital-like interior on the new cars, I think it would be an ideal setting for the Brist.
I think the Brist is a pretty evil thing to begin with (no offense to anyone's religion, but glad mine don't require it), but if it must be done, I don't know about a shaking subway train......to sort of partly quote Selkirk from an earlier thread, we don't want to give the conductor TOO much of a tip for his services.....:)
< /badjoke >
redbird looking like it was photographed back in the 1960s !!
WHERE THA' RUST ?? ------aint' no rust !! man she looks good '
lol lol lol lol
I see what looks like rust by the first door pocket by the right door leaf. It look irregular in texture. This is a common place where the Redbirds rust out. Water collects and lays there and it rusts through. Also under car body where we can't see. Juiceman will testify to that.
When the last Redbirds disappear from the NYCTA, Bondo will start laying off employees !
Bill "Newkirk"
When the last Redbirds disappear from the NYCTA, Bondo will start laying off employees !
I don't know, I see plenty of cars in NYC that can keep Bondo in business :)
They will use the rest of the Bondo on the Slants, who thrive on the stuff.
wayne
This car [#9011] looks very good in the picture. I wonder if the rust is in places that you cannot see.
#3 West End Jeff
It's in places that can't be seen, and it's in places that CAN be seen. Look closer (like at the door sills, for example).
David
I thought that something looked suspicous around the door sills in the photos.
#3 West End Jeff
Rustbird rot occurs most prevantly on side panels which conceal open doors for the first twel;ve inches and are a result of clogged weep holse which did not allow accumulated water to drain out undercar. The panel may appear to suffer from a gash upon inspection...last fixes have been welded steel plates and duct tape painted red. End doors have the inner wall severed from rust, may jam the doors movement, no permanent repair.....hammer, big screwdriver and shoepaddle are TA 'tools of choice' to pull out inner wall panel from against door...then you oil with Castoleum. CI Peter
What is Castoleum? Some sort of industrial lubricant??
sure looks good 2 me ........
Looks good to me too :o)
what i am sayin' is yes she shows her age ....etc...but
this crap about a ((((RUSTBIRD))))......is a hoax !!
.......lol !!
You know, I get so bent out of shape when someone calls our beloved Redbirds "Rustbirds" or "Rotbirds". I'd like to see one of these piece of S$&* R-142's last half as long. It's NOT GONNA HAPPEN.
The rustbirds are rotting. 500 down the toilet, 2 more to go. Heh!
i dont get what you mean... what does 502 have to do with anything?
OKay Mr Californian, we will stop drowning your beloved DEADBIRDS in the ocean.
Introducing the Californian Coach Motel:
Coaches go in, but they don't come out.
Good Riddance
Just a note ... I did *NOT* do that layup. :)
You were shaking your finger emphatically when you said that, I presume.:)
You'll have to define "emphatically." :)
A failed attempt at an articulated trainset !
Bill "Newkirk"
those shyould have been sent over he river to TRAVELTOWN
..........& or the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ..........
for sure !! ( photo is from the glendale r-30s ) ....
i was glad 2 see em !!!
those shyould have been sent across the LA river to TRAVELTOWN
..........&.... or the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ..........
for sure !! ( photo is from the glendale r-30s ) ....
i was glad 2 see em !!!
those should have been sent across the LA river to TRAVELTOWN
..........&.... or the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM ..........
for sure !! ( photo is from the glendale r-30s ) ....
i was glad 2 see em !!!
Wow...triple posts..
BTW, I don't there's a need for correcting yourself so many times. Just more useless stuff to clutter up this thread!
no goode ridance-----------instead send a couple of sets 2 cali'
2 the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM & to traveltown another railroad museum
& keep several of the BEST SETS FOR MUSEUM RUNS !!! ....oh yea !!
( i was born in harlem ) !! sure made sure i did not tell them dat'
when i was in atlanta ! MAN THEY WILL CALL YOU A YANKEEE THERE IN A
NEW YORK MINUTE !! ...................lol !!
man i cant wait 2 see the redbirds on the 4 5 7 !!! wooooooooooooo
lol
i know !! you are right there my friend for sure !!
the quality DOES NOT go IN before the NAME goes on !!
!!!!
I saw some nice candy apple red redbirds a few weeks ago...they looked as if they could've just come off the assembly line. I can't remember if it was 9011 and company, but they sure looked nice.
cant wait 2 see em again in person this setember ......thankz
by the bottom of a few of the door pockets there is rust
I was watching the news this morning, there was a another baby carriage dragging, this time it was on the Flushing line-the culprit a redbird, the child's mother said the train left the station with the baby carriage left in the closing doors, of course the redbird trains dont have door sensors.The MTA said it was the mother's fault, the mother blamed the MTA.For years I see people use briefcases, umbrellas, newspapers, and believe or not their feet!! for door blockers so they can let their friends, or other people into the train, I hate to see the redbirds get blamed for everything
Isn't the conductor supposed to check both ends of the train for draggings ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I'd think it was a curved station.........
........but then IIRC, the 7 has mostly
STRAIGHT platform stations....
The redbirds are older and demand more careful handling on the part of conductors to assure passenger safety when alighting or boarding.
Regardless of whose fault this incident was, it is time to move on to more passenger-friendly equipment. This is no bad reflection on the Redbirds - just an acknowledgment that the next generation of subway cars can and should be deployed.
How is the R-142 more passenger friendly? It's whitewashed walls, ultra bright lighting and steel bars emanates a feeling of anything but friendly. There is a hospital-like sterility about them. If anything, the operators should be blamed for the mishap. Keep the redbirds rolling!!!
the 142's look ok to me.i never complain about the bright lighting or anything else about it.how the heck can someone else find something wrong with em?
You have to understand, I'm not sure how old you are, but I am from a different era. I come from a time of Low-V's and Arnines, and can still recall when the R-33's were new. To me, the R-142 is just too much of a radical change from subway cars "as we knew them." I'm not saying we should revert back to the days of straw seats and incandescent lighting, I'm just saying there is nothing user-friendly about the R-142's, and I'm sure I will despise the R-160's as much (if not more) when they are released. Just my two cents.
I'll give you change for your 2 cents. You're right. I'm a fan of old time trains myself, my favorites being R12-R22. I love singe units. However, my father likes the ol' school trains as well. A real damper is that he hated riding the D type Triplex units. He tells me every time he rode one to school in the 50's, they always broke down on him. Pops preffered R16's to the Triplex. He even refused to board the Triplex at the Transit Museum. He still has memories of riding to school, getting there late, and getting a whoopin' when he got home because of his lateness to school. He has a feeling the Triplex will break down on him in the Museum. Pops is nuts but loveable. But is it true the D types broke down a lot? That should explain why fan trips on the Triplex are pulled by an SBK electric loco. Help me out here.
Bklyn
The Triplexes were not maintained very well, but they were well-designed and well-built. They still had plenty of years left when they were prematurely withdrawn. Perhaps your father had a bad experience which soured him on the Triplexes. I can't say for sure just how often thay may have broken down because I never had a chance to ride on them myself. Perhaps one of our regulars who did ride on them can comment on that.
--It's whitewashed walls, ultra bright lighting and steel bars emanates a feeling of anything but friendly. There is a hospital-like sterility about them--
This is exactly what makes them more passenger friendly. Plus their safer than the redbirds because of the intercom, and the bright lights.
For those that like it, go forward....
But why do you like the redbirds?
I like the redbirds (not just from an aesthetic standpoint), but because it's what I know (and have known) on the "7". I will miss the axiflow fans, paper signs, and metal straphangers. The LED digital signs, automated annunciator, purple seats, and whitewashed interiors are just too much of a radical change.
Axiflow fans?? what's that? Anyways, I never could stand those swinging hand holds on the redbirds. ( train takes sharp turn) ( chest winds up in someone's face) SORRY!!!. I prefer fixed poles.
Axiflow fans are the round, centrally mounted fans with the louvers. R-32's had them as well until MK F%#*ed 'em up.
Ok kool thanks.
how can you say that!!!?!?the R32s wouldnt have lasted for more than a few years without the wonderful MK rebuildthe only negitive was the cyclops look, which was made neccecary due to the ACat the time the 32s were having structural problems by the doors, MK fixed that
I can say that there was NOTHING wrong with the interior configuration of the R-32's until MK loused them up. They could have retrofitted A/C units through the axiflow fans instead of installing whole new ceilings and removing the individual straphangers. Also, they should have left the front paper signs in place. That luminator with the letter of the train is too ambiguous. You can't even see what kind of a train it is until it pulls into the station. It's too small and too difficult to read. If it ain't broke, why fix it? This is one of those cases where they should have left well enough alone.
That's the main reason I'm fond of the Redbirds - they kept their front route and destination signs.
new roof=better looking
Bars(not straphangars)=more people can hold on
New roof (more plain looking). Bars not straphangers, more people can hold on - yeah, but what about short people (like myself)? Those bars are quite a stretch. The straphangers were much better because they extended further.
Short people can use vertical poles and the seat handles near the doors.
Short people can use vertical poles
Not if they're already filled up. There aren't terribly many of them to begin with.
and the seat handles near the doors.
Passengers, short or tall, shouldn't be encouraged to block the doors.
I don't see why a minority of the population should be accomodated, to the detriment of the remainder of society.
The bars serve people a lot better than poles. The poles are there if you need them. The R-142 has even more of them.
To David and Fishbowl: Does the lack of low handholds on the R142 class cars contribute to your not liking them?
I think I included it in my list of what I disliked about the R-142. If not, yes, you can add it.
Yes, but as far as I'm concerned, there are a myriad of things I don't like about the R-142. They are such a radical change from subway cars "as we know them". The redbirds will be sorely missed, because they're the last of their kind with the individual grabhandles. I don't care what anyone else on this post says, they should have NEVER removed those grabhandles from the R-32's.
I don't see why a minority of the population should be accomodated, to the detriment of the remainder of society.
You mean the way it's now impossible for the majority of us who can walk to safely pass between cars, so that wheelchairs can freely move from one car to the next?
It's hardly like I'm in that sort of tiny minority, anyway. I'm 5'6" -- the minority I'm a part of is pretty sizeable. If the horizontal bar were a few inches lower, or there were straps attached to it (like on the buses), we'd have something to hold onto.
To think of it, the double end doors are hard as hell to use. If you don't pull hard enough, you may think that thay're locked.
What's odd is that one handle is a dummy and doesn't unlatch the door. Even if you figure out which handle is the real one, while in theory you could hold the grab bar with one hand and pull on only that one handle, you have to pull quite hard. Usually I end up pulling on both, which means I'm not holding onto anything fixed (with respect to the car), and I don't think that's terribly safe. That's why I say it's impossible to move safely between cars.
(The R-143, with its wider single door, doesn't share this problem.)
Was this double door another smart Idea of the ADA?
Supposedly. A single door couldn't be wide enough for wheelchair passage, so double doors were used. The resulting safety hazard was apparently not a concern.
I'd like to see a wheelchair go in between cars... Why must the ADA be so intrusive ? They screw a majority to help a minority by putting seats which scare the shit outta you and end doors which are difficult to use.
I doubt ADA required that those seats make such a racket.
Did those seats even have to be spring loaded?
Well, there has to be something that'll keep them in the raised position. I don't know why they're not like the bus wheelchair seats that have been around for over 20 years.
The person in the wheelchair can lift the seat. It's not like there that heavy. How often do people in wheelchairs ride the subways?
From Page T2-17 of "Appendix and Technical Specifications for Overhauling 296 R-32 Type Rapid Transit Passenger Cars for the New York City Transit System - Car Overhaul Contract R-33561 (R-32)":
2.14 INTERIOR CEILING.
2.14.1 NEW INTERIOR CEILING.
The Contractor shall remove the existing interior ceiling including the lighting fixtures and fans. The Contractor shall design, purchase or manufacture and install a new interior ceiling, motorman's and conductor's area included. The new ceiling shall incorporate the new air conditioning units, air ducts, diffusers, lighting fixtures, access panels, advertising card holders and speaker grilles.
------------------
In other words, NYCT said, "Install a new ceiling," and M-K said, "OK, since that's what you asked for and there's no good engineering reason to challenge your request."
This requirement also applied to the other contract for overhauling R-32s, R-33538 (remember, this overhaul was done in two phases, both of which were awarded to M-K, as it turned out) and to the pilot contract for 10 R-32s, which went to General Electric.
David
I understand MK was only following orders, but they're the ones who did the conversion, I guess I'm blaming them falsely. The R-32's would have been done over completely no matter who did the rebuild. I just feel they should have left them more as they were. The beautiful thing about the in-house rebuild of the Redbirds was that Coney Island shops left the cars pretty much "as they were" and just schlopped on a new coat of paint.
M-K did the same thing with the Redbirds it rebuilt (R-26, R-28, R-29, and some R-36).
If NYCT had ordered new ceilings for those cars, they would have gotten new ceilings. NYCT didn't, and the cars retained their old ceilings.
David
I ride mainly the "7" train, and I know most (if not all) of those cars were done in-house by the Coney Island shops. In fact, some cars, (like 9334) have a new ID plate inside, reflecting where and when the rebuild was done. I wish they would xfer some of the older R-33 mainlines to the "7", but I guess it's a little late for that...
Too late and too expensive. Corona Yard is on its way to handling a single car type again - this time the R62.
The R-33s were done in-house. The married pairs were done at 207th Street, and the singles were done at Coney Island.
The R-36s were done by Coney Island, M-K, Mechtron, New York Rail Car, and even Amtrak's Beech Grove Shops. To my knowledge, NONE of the R-36s got rebuilder's plates.
The R-26, R-28, and R-29 series were done by M-K.
David
It's possible they didn't. 9334 was an R-33 single-line World's Fair Car. Oh, how I will miss the axiflow fans. Wonder if I'll ever see 9336 again? That was the car with experimental lighting.
what experiment?
That car has acrylic covers over the flourescent lights, the middle row of flourescent lights have been removed, and this particular car has a transformer so that the lights do not "blink out" at a dead spot on the track.
Sounds exactly like all the mainline Redbirds.
Not the ones on the "7". The lights flicker and an auxiliary set of lights mounted in the middle of the fan covers come on.
I know. What you described as an experimental car sounds exactly like every mainline Redbird. I guess the experiment passed.
Okay, now we're getting down to the real question:
Why did NYCT order new ceilings for some cars and not for others?
(Was 8660 a failed experiment? When was the new hardware installed?)
8660 got its pseudo-R-62A interior during overhaul. I don't know why the scheme wasn't carried out on the rest of the cars, other than to say that doing something is more expensive than doing nothing, and that some of the R-26/28/29 cars were already back by the time 8660 came back.
The first few R-33s to be done by 207th Street (in 1986) got new ceilings...again, it was probably deemed too expensive to do on an entire fleet (remember, the cars were already air-conditioned by then, so there was no reason to be doing major work inside the ceiling).
David
What exactly was done to 8660? I never noticed any redbird with this type of interior you describe.
Taken on July 12, 2001:
What a bizarre sight. I have never seen that car in all my travels. Was it always assigned to the #6?
I don't know. I spent a day running around, looking for unusual Redbirds. First I found this one on the 7:
Then I waited at Grand Central until I spotted 8660 pass by on the 6. I was on the wrong platform, so I hopped onto a 5 to catch it, where I ran into this as I made my way to the back:
No replacement window available for THAT storm door. CI Peter
Don't worry about it. That window is now in service on the Ocean Express.
That's OK ... you just replace the whole storm door with one of those stacked up over in the corner. :)
There are no more storm doors stacked in the corner. The yard Superintendent had a big cleanup trashing all cab storm window frames. Tomorrow, crew works OT cleaning out misc collection of parts in the boiler room and at least one has to have TA forklift certification (I moved hundreds of photo video sticker machines weighing in at 500 pounds apiece off trailers into storage BUT NO CERT.) Even end glass line/destination is almost unavailable. 'Unauthorized salvage' is now overlooked. I can manufacture replacements from polycarbonate stock but proper safety scaffolding is not available. Deep Six for those who served well. CI Peter
Heh. Well then ... looks like you guys are gonna have to store some cardboard for foamer window duty. A couple of box cutters and glad bags and you're all set for spares. :)
TO/CR windshield body frame is rusted out...new rubber gasket does not fit anymore. Clean the channel out, squirt two tubes of silicone sealent and duct tape. R142s aren't without similar problems...flash shield on bottom of truck is secured with silicone and hardware on ends...shield bellies out. Wash with alcohol (propulsky,) cut up some old shoe paddles, squirt one tube of silicone inside and stack up the shoe paddle pieces underneath till silicone ooozes out. Leave it alone...trolleyed trainset will just ride over the wood. CI Peter
Heh. You're just LOVING this, aren't you? Reminds me of the days of the mighty Arnines. Damned windshield wiper wiped the OUTSIDE of the windshield. What good was THAT? :)
Yeah, got to check out birdskys up close and personal. Presented pieces from my ride to be turned in for regluing. If you remember that old Saturday Night Live skit for that car made of mud called the "Adobe" I can understand how Bondo makes the trains run. Heh.
'Unauthorized salvage' is now overlooked
Can you get me some redbird parts then? I'd like a metal "strap" from the ceiling.
While you're at it, could you please get me a signbox?
Can you get me some redbird parts then? I'd like a metal "strap" from the ceiling.
I don't understand that they don't sell things like that at the transit museum. It was even better when they did the transit museum auction/sale. I bought a strap about 10 years ago there when they did the last one. It was cheap (like $5.00). I guess it's from an R27 or 30. It was around the time when they were scrapping them.
I don't know why they don't sell things like signs and stuff at the museum, or why they don't do the auction/sale anymore.
They should. A few years ago, I bought a few dump fareboxes from the retired city fishbowls.
They should. A few years ago, I bought a few dump fareboxes from the retired city fishbowls.
Yeah, I remember seeing them for sale at the museum! I'm not much of a busfan, so I didn't buy one, but I remember thinking it was pretty cool that they were selling them. Even signs, they are constantly ripping them down, changing and replacing them. What do they do with them...throw them out? Why don't they sell them at the museum or have the auction anymore?
I'm not sure what the city does with them, but I know here at M.S.B.A. they throw them in a huge dumpster. This was the case about 4 years ago when M.S.B.A. got the new Cubix Metrocard fareboxes to replace the older Duncan fareboxes. What a waste!
I was at 207th and wondered what the round container of shiny tubes was...then I realised they were the verical poles. Stainless steel alloys will not decompose like the ferrous metal carbodies in the deep blue sea...probably contracted locally to recycle. I'll need to find an MTA connection to ask why some straps aren't saved for 'collectors.' CI Peter
Pair of stands, please! :)
What's odd about the redbird in the first picture?
LCD local/express indicators. It's hard to tell since, this being the 7, they don't work anyway.
Oh yes, if you look really carefully, you can see it. I guess it was some kind of experiment that didn't work, because I've never seen a Redbird with anything digital.
Did they steal the storm door out of an old R21-22 when they were scrapped?
Wow, that is bizarre. Certainly an interesting departure from the average redbird. Is 8660 still in service?
Nope. She, like almost all R29's, was reefed last January.
Using a redbird-style AC diffusing system would have been a mistake. The fans on the R32/38/40's fans were farther apart and would have led to uneven cooling. The current difusers run the length of the car (excep at the extreme ends) and cool nicely. Even when they first returned from their GOH, the redbird AC units never cooled their cars as well as the B division cars did.
I'm trying to remember what the ceilings were like in the R-40 slants before the conversion. I'm pretty sure they too had the individual straphangers. Can anyone back me up on this?
Yes they did. The first 200 R40's had fans, the other 100 had AC.
Both MK and Sumitomo did wonderful jobs with their GOH jobs. Coney Island did a less than spectacular job. Who did the R44's? CI or 207th St?
The R-44 was a collaboration between Coney Island and 207th Street. That is, the in-house overhaul was a collaboration. M-K overhauled a bunch (half, if memory serves) and provided parts for the rest.
David
They could have retrofitted A/C units through the axiflow fans instead of installing whole new ceilings and removing the individual straphangers.
Like on the Redbirds with the stupid pipes that have to block the seats, and the now dead intake vents that just look stupid in their sealed up state?
The Redbird ceilings might have looked nice when they still had axiflow fans, but it's a disaster now, and its the thing I hated most about riding them.
Also, they should have left the front paper signs in place.
Yes, they should have, but the A/C blocked access to the signs if they were to remain. They should have installed LEDs like on the R-142/3.
How did they do it on the 10 R-38s that were delivered with A/C?
If it ain't broke, why fix it?
If this philosophy was applied by early cavemen, then we would still be hunting wooly mammoths (or equivalent) with spears.
So I take it you're in favor of the "FRANKENTRAIN" R-32's in their current state?
yes
But why do you like the redbirds?
Heck... at least he likes the Redbirds - I haven't really liked anything since the D-Types and BMT Standards....
When I was born, the R62's were being delivered. I grew up on the R62A's and never had the opportunity to railfan. The R62's are the oldest subway cars that my family, peers and myself can stand to be on. My Mommy told me horror stories about the " red trains" and how in the summer, they would be empty and the " regular trains " would be really full cause of the A\ C.
Wait, I did railfan once when I took the 1 train to a classical orchestra concert. I got bored and went back to looking out the side window.
Were you going to Loncoln Center, Carnegie Hall, or somewhere else?
And a few years later, in 1991, the last of the "red trains" (except the R-33 singles on the 7) got air conditioning.
The R-26 through R-36 IRT Redbirds (minus the single R-33s, of course) all had air conditioning by the end of 1982.
David
And who said that this A\ C even worked ( especially on the 2). There was also the problem of 'Hotseats" in the summer. Malfunctioning seat heaters made seats so hot that no one could sit on them in the summer.
Really? I rode a good deal of IRT in the 1980's and I never realized it. (Then again, at the time the cars fit into two categories in my mind: the old ones covered in graffiti and the new shiny ones.) I thought the a/c came during GOH. Were the a/c systems replaced in GOH? If not, I'm surprised they still work after all this time.
The R-33MLs were the first to get new A/C, beginning with the cars on the No. 6 train, in 1978 (IIRC, it was about eight weeks later I got into my first R-33 retrofit that was blowing hot air out of the new A/C units). The R-36WFs started getting theirs in 1979 and the R-26/28s were the last to be retrofitted for air conditioning in the early 1980s.
That's about right. The program started in 1977 after a false start in the early 1970s and a successful pilot in 1975.
As to David G.'s question, M-K overhauled the air conditioning on the R-26 through R-29 series. As I understand it, the R-33s got new units (compressors, anyway) when they were overhauled in-house.
David
But D-types and BMT standards are lovable cars. The Redbirds were part of a long era of horrifying blandness. The only people who love them are the ones for whom they were the cars of their childhood.
Heh. Some day, you'll be decrying the toasters on wheels passage when the new transparent, all plastic subway cars with hydrogen bladders on the sides start to replace them. It's all relative. Bring back the LoV's. Moo. :)
Why will I? In fact, the way you describe them, I look forward to this leap in technology. Although I don't know what the hydrogen bladders are for.
Heh. The hydrogen bladders would be the local fuel supply for when they rise out of the tunnels and go into hovercraft mode. And I'm sure you'll wax nostalgic at some point down the road. That's when you'll know the repolusion's over. :)
Bring back the R-1/9s, too. Neener-neener.
Well ... just the ones with motors, brakes and working door valves. That oughta be about six. :)
With a little help, it could be alot more than that :o)
Yeah, but I did it in 1970/71 ... I was easy to please and that was more than adequate at the time. Buzz-buzz, let's go. :)
Certainly alot better than the annoying "ding-dong" on an R-46.
When I heard bing-bongs on the redbirds, that pretty much ruined my meal. And air conditioning too. How strange. "air conditioned cars" used to be something rare that you'd pass up several trains to get this time of year once upon a time. If the Arnines were still running, I wonder if they'd air condition those and bing-bong 'em too. Sacrilege. :)
What bing-bong on the redbird? I've never known the World's Fair R-33's and 36's to do that... You mean the ones done over by MK have that? How annoying.
Went for a ride on the 4 with Unca Dave and the damned things bingbonged. I would have preferred "Moo" myself along with the closing doors, or perhaps "BAAAaaaaaa" or maybe "honk honk" but the damned things bingbonged. In my overwhelming torture of hearing that, I reached down, broke off a piece of anticlimber and handed it to Unca Dave to turn in when he got back to Woodlawn. :)
Went for a ride on the 4 with Unca Dave and the damned things bingbonged.
No they didn't. Nothing older than the R-44's have the doorbells.
Except the phony R-30's in "Money Train" (barf)
And the dubbed-in sounds on the R-38s in Crocodile Dundee II.
Unca Pelham Bay Dave was in the cab when we did our Kissmoose thing and I could have SWORN I heard a bingbong as the doors were closing on that puppy (most disturbing) so I guess I'll have to ask for confirmation from anybody else ... when Unca Dave closed up, I could have sworn I heard a bingbong each time ... am I hallucinating?
Maybe you heard it from the R-62 across the platform. Definitely not from the R-33 you were on.
Nope, we were all alone for many of the stops. It was muted but it was there. I noted MANY strange things about the redbird conductor cabs though - the vapor lock was different from what I was used to, additional boxes and a rather different control panel from what I remembered many years ago. But when Unca Dave pushed his buttons to close up, there was a bingbong or so I thought. And I'm pretty sure that's what I heard. Hopefully we'll hear from Unca Dave soon since he was there with us. Maybe it was an oddball but it was rusted all to hell and was a Concourse escapee that had pieces of it literally breaking off in our hands as we grabbed metal to hold on.
I'm afraid your memory is playing tricks on you. But I don't blame you for not believing me.
No, actually the wife says it was the 32's bingbonging that was "unnatural" and Dave wasn't around for that. She's not sure if the redbird wreckage we rode bingbonged either so yes, two strikes against my sanity and the score is 2-0. Heh.
Unca Dave can settle it as far as I go though since he was there and I could have sworn they bingbonged, but yeah, maybe they mooed instead. :)
The 32's don't bingbong either. Just the 44's and up. Guaranteed. No doorbells were added to doorbellless cars in GOH.
Well, the one thing we're in agreement in on this side is that the 62's or 62A's did and about all either of us remembers was being taken aback by something bingbonging that never did originally. I'm pretty sure it was that #4 train redbird junker we rode, Nancy thought maybe it was the 32's if it wasn't the boidies. I'm not doubting you, I'm doubting my own sanity as expected but I'm pretty sure that the redbirds we were on at the conductor position did indeed bingbong. Maybe it was a ghost train, don't know for sure.
One of my own disadvantages is that I'm not of the "train spotting" mentality, I'm in this all for the people, not the equipment so all I can offer is hopefully Dave can set me straight. Maybe it was an oddball train ... wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, and definitely won't be the last. :)
Ok Uncle Dave is here. The #4 Redbirds don't have a Bing Bong so if you did here Bing bong it was across the platform or the train in the other directions because it does carry. I remember we did have a talk about the door chimes since on the ride down we had a R62.
Then again maybe it did go Bing bong and it would be an odd train. I'm the wrong person to ask because I hear Bing Bongs all the time at home and in my sleep as well as at work on the No.1 Bway Line.
I have to pick my new assignment this week and I can't make up my mind where I want to work.
That's why I was hoping you'd amble by ... if anyone would remember, it would be you. Coulda sworn I heard bingbongs outta that turd but yeah, you'd know for sure. I tell ya, that sure wasn't your father's redbird. I didn't recognize hardly ANYTHING in your position with all the mods and that stupid R46 key thingy and de buttons SURE ain't what I remebered at all. Glad you got a chance to see a REAL C/R panel up at Branford at least. Heh.
And yeah, "Avon calling" on subway cars is an anathema. Didn't need doorbells back in my days - even the DEAF could hear the doors closing, right down to the puff of air at the end that said, "gotcha!" :)
Ah well, I guess I should be glad that I can hallucinate without benefit of chemicals. Moo!
And the R-10s had the fastest doors of all.
Made for a faster "Pfft! Gotcha!" ... :)
By the way ... if you're hearing bingbongs in your sleep, I really don't think you'll want to volunteer for B division just yet. :)
Perhaps some smart aleck installed door chimes in a "Redbird". If that is the case I would like to know the Car No. of the "Redbird" that has the door chimes.
#3 West End Jeff
I can't speak for Fishbowl, but I can tell you why I like the Redbirds:
The seats are the most comfortable seats on the subway. (I don't fit the curves of the R-142 seats; they're very uncomfortable to me.)
The lighting is neither too bright nor too dim, and the color scheme is pleasant. The windows aren't coated. It's easy to see out the windows, even underground.
The signage, though it could be larger, is clear. Color-coding is preserved.
The announcements are usually correct. Locals aren't declared expresses and year-old transfers aren't announced. I can hear the announcements when I want to hear them; I don't have the same exact sequence of recordings forced at me, at high volume, every day. At stations with low passenger volumes, the announcements can be made completely but quickly.
The air conditioning, at least on the mainline R-33's, is very good, yet the fans don't sound like a jet taking off and the ducts aren't covered in steel dust.
They don't grunt when they stop.
I can reach the straps, which protect me from sudden jolts in the forward-backward dimension but don't force my arm to absorb the forces produced by the gentle side-to-side rocking. The overhead bars on other cars are too high for me to reach comfortably (the R-142 ceiling grab bar is a cruel joke as far as I'm concerned).
There's an interesting, and by now endangered, view out the front. And thanks to the straps, multiple people can stand at the front, all with something to hold onto. (That can't be said for any other car type anymore.)
Passage through the train is unobstructed from front to back. It can also be done safely, with one hand opening the doors while the other hand holds onto the grab bars. The R-142 storm doors can only be operated safely by those with three hands.
The local-express status is explicitly signed up front (except on the 7, where the fuses have been removed).
They're red on the outside and there are little purple lights in the corners on the inside.
The cars don't separate when they're not supposed to separate.
There you go. Some of these are subjective; some are objective. Some are relevant to everyone; some just to a few.
There are some R-142 features I like. I like the windows between cars. I like the emergency intercoms (although I'd prefer to also see customer service intercoms). I like the wider doors. Electronic signage, while harder to read than rollsigns, has great potential, but that potential isn't being realized even to a minimal degree. I like the elimination of excess cabs. I like the individual door cycle feature.
Slap those features into a brand new Redbird and you've made my day.
--The seats are the most comfortable seats on the subway. (I don't fit the curves of the R-142 seats; they're very uncomfortable to me.) --
I LOVE the seats. Its like they took a mold of my back and slappped it into a subway car. Redbird seats are tolerable, but they don't support my back.
--The signage, though it could be larger, is clear. Color-coding is preserved. --
This persents a problem. THe signage in the R142's is dim and pretty grainy. But, the R142A signage is verry sharp and excessively bright.
--I can reach the straps, which protect me from sudden jolts in the forward-backward dimension but don't force my arm to absorb the forces produced by the gentle side-to-side rocking. The overhead bars on other cars are too high for me to reach comfortably (the R-142 ceiling grab bar is a cruel joke as far as I'm concerned). --
Umm, those swinging hand holds do not keep your chest from going in someone's face when the train makes a turn. Gimme stationary bars, and give my biceps an extra workout anyday. I like that ceiling bar, It gives me extra room to breathe while everyone else is stuck at the low bars. Particularly useful during the PM rush when you get on at 86st.
--The local-express status is explicitly signed up front (except on the 7, where the fuses have been removed). --
Since when does <6> look like a (6). They've even gone as far as saying " BRONX EXPRESS" on the side signs.
--The cars don't separate when they're not supposed to separate. --
Hey! Don't lump the Kawasaki cars into that mess, They don't even ' Bunka-Bunka' let alone pull apart.
I see that we are opposites on many fronts, perhaps we agree on that Bombsuckier cars are pure , unadulterated garbage.
Even I do - and my handle is "R142 #2". I took that handle back in 1999 when I was hoping for brand-new cars on the 2. But now look what's happening to them.
Pull-a-part-sky
I LOVE the seats. Its like they took a mold of my back and slappped it into a subway car. Redbird seats are tolerable, but they don't support my back.
I don't find the R-142 seats tolerable at all, I'm afraid. Look around the next time you're riding. Some people, like yourself, will be happily curved to fit. Others will be squirming for the entire ride. I'm a squirmer.
I find the Redbird seats more comfortable than the chair I'm sitting in now -- and it's a pretty comfortable chair.
This persents a problem. THe signage in the R142's is dim and pretty grainy. But, the R142A signage is verry sharp and excessively bright.
I haven't noticed the difference, but I don't ride the 6 (or 4) much. I'll keep my eyes open. The R-143 signage is definitely a big improvement over either the R-142 or the R-142A.
Still, nothing compares with the clarity of a mylar rollsign. When an R-62A 1 train pulls in, there's no mistaking it for anything else -- if you didn't notice the huge backlit red 1 bullet on the front, you'll find a smaller but still prominent red 1 bullet on the side of each car.
Umm, those swinging hand holds do not keep your chest from going in someone's face when the train makes a turn. Gimme stationary bars, and give my biceps an extra workout anyday. I like that ceiling bar, It gives me extra room to breathe while everyone else is stuck at the low bars. Particularly useful during the PM rush when you get on at 86st.
Not to me. I can't reach them unless I want to lose all circulation in my fingertips.
NYCT buses have overhead bars with straps attached to them. I wonder why that idea hasn't made it to the subway. Actually, I think the R-110B had something similar, but the straps were shaped strangely.
(Speaking of which, my criticism is not with anything new -- although I never had the opportunity to ride one, the R-110A looks really classy in the pictures here. The R-142, aesthetically, is a huge step backwards to my taste.)
Since when does <6> look like a (6). They've even gone as far as saying " BRONX EXPRESS" on the side signs.
I'm not talking about the route sign. I'm talking about a separate light that (if set properly) informs passengers if the train right now, right here, not off in the Bronx somewhere is a local or an express, regardless of what the official route calls for.
the R110A seats were much more painful to sit in(the seast were bumpy)
The 'birds do have their charms, but time has taken a toll on them. Like just about everything and everyone, subway cars have a finite life span, and the Redbirds have seen their useful life come pretty much to an end.
That doesn't mean I can't like them. That doesn't mean I can't get onto one whenever I see one, even if it drags me two boroughs out of the way. (Remember, they're pretty much extinct here on the West Side.) That doesn't mean I can't wish the TA had ordered very similar (but less rusty) cars as replacements.
--That doesn't mean I can't wish the TA had ordered very similar (but less rusty) cars as replacements. --
That is exactly what the R142 class cars are. They are shaped just like the redbirds, have bench seating, the A cars have red accents, and large railfan windoes. What more could a redbird replacement copy from its predecessor without becoming eerily similar to it and wind up having me hate it?
I couldn't have said it better myself. In this passage, you've pretty much summed up all that is good about the Redbirds. The only point I would have to disagree on is the signage. I find the paper signs to be sufficiently legible. Certainly much more than the luminator on the R-32's. That's an abomination!
The rollsigns are mylar, not paper, and I agree that they're easier to read than their successors (especially on the R-32/38).
(I was on an E train last week that was getting funny stares from the passengers on each platform we came to. Eventually, the T/O stepped out to see what the bulkhead sign actually looked like -- I think he understood the source of the confusion. It didn't help that all trains were on the express track at the time.)
The brighter lighting is, in part a response to ADA. People with poor vision will be able to see better aboard these cars.
Does the MTA HAVE to comply with the ADA?
Yes, it does.
And what's more, most people would want it to.
If you or any of your friends and family have difficulty walking, seeing, or hearing, you would want MTA to make it as easy and safe to use the subway (and buses and commuter rail) as possible, wouldn't you?
That is what ADA is about.
I just can't stand those stupid flop seats " BANG!" on the New Tech Trains. BANG! ( heart jumps into throat) ( gives evil look).
Well, I can tell you this much - If this is what ADA is about, it most certainly does not cater to railfans. But for the longest time now, I've had this feeling as though the MTA has it in for us, this just further confirms the theory.
"Just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean MTA isn't out to get you."
:0)
When was the MTA responsible for catering to railfans? Never.
At the same time, people with strong sensitivity to light get headaches. My father doesn't ride the subway anymore.
Has he tried polarized sunglasses? It's much easier to shield yourself from bright light than to get a person with a vision problem to see in darker conditions. The TA is doing exactly what they should be in that case.
You're suggesting he buy sunglasses specifically to ride the subway? (He doesn't wear sunglasses in the sun -- he wears a hat if necessary.)
>>> He doesn't wear sunglasses in the sun -- he wears a hat if necessary. <<<
I have never seen an R142, but I find it hard to believe the lights are more intense than direct sunlight. If a hat provides enough protection from sunlight, it should do the same for the lights in an R142.
Tom
A hat provides protection from sunlight because sunlight comes primarily from above. The light on the R-142's, with their white walls and coated windows, comes from all around.
"A hat provides protection from sunlight because sunlight comes primarily from above."
If you want to protect yourself from sunburn, a hat is appropriate and certainly protective. But if photophobia is the problem, sunglasses are much more effective.
Your father is exercising a personal preference; he's entitled.
Yes, and the new trains make subway riding incompatible with his personal preference given his sensitivity to bright light. Fortunately, he can take the bus most places he needs to go, even if it does take twice as long.
Also, even on the sunniest of days, there are often shady spaces. There are no shady spaces on R-142's. Maybe the TA should plant trees on the trains.
Those would help make a dandy "first class" car. Perhaps the first two cars of a subway train could have trees and flowers, and pots of coffee and tea and magazines to read... (the extra $3 fare would be collected on the train).
I'm suggesting he wear sunglasses in any situation which is likely to produce photophobia for him.
In aesthetics, to each his own. For passenger safety, the Redbirds' time has passed.
How are the Redbirds less safe than other cars?
(I'm not suggesting they aren't; I'm just curious if you know what the issues are.)
I'll pitch in on this. The earliest posts mentioned that the Redbirds have no door sensors. he end doors tend to open randomly (I've only seen this happen on the 7, though).
You also have to realize that they've been here for 40 years. natural wear and tear takes its toll on any rolling stock and can eliminate the chances for maintenance or GOH's to bring it back to life. Also, I guess you can say the 'birds aren't ADA compliant.
That pretty much sums it up.
The Redbird was a good design for its time. It has held up well. The 1967 Ford Mustang was a good design for its time.
It's now 2002. The R142 and R143 cars cater to passengers much better than the Redbirds do. There is always the odd duck (like Dave Greenberger) who may feel truly inconvenienced, but in general, passengers are much better off.
You can count me as another odd duck who feels truly inconvenienced. As long as their around, I'll keep riding the redbirds. BOMBardier and Kawasucki can take back their R-142's.
Whatever makes you happy.
Yeah, lets sink the R142's!!
Amen to that! :o)
BOMBsucker cars are crap... an unworthy successor to the redbirds.
hey, thanks for the compliment.
Plus the Redbirds are suffering from Public Enemy #1 to carbon steel: corrosion.
No, you're misinformed. No NYC subway car doors reopen automatically like elevator doors. The R-142(A)'s and R-143's do have a bounce-back feature, but all older car doors will continue pushing until the C/R reopens them. That goes for Redbirds and R-68's alike. And the T/O can't take power until the doors are closed -- that also goes for Redbirds and R-68's alike.
No, you're misinformed. No NYC subway car doors reopen automatically like elevator doors. The R-142(A)'s and R-143's do have a bounce-back feature
One question on the "bounce-back" feature... I understand that the Lo-V's originally had it but it was disabled at some point because of the delays caused by passengers holding doors. What has changed now? Why has that feature been resurrected in spite of the previous experience the TA had with it?
R142 'bounce back' strikes the obstruction and releases three times...upon the fourth contact, the door will stop and energise in the direction of closure. This is a feature designed to automatically attempt C/R door jogging to save time and insure passenger safety. Failure generates an indication on the operators screen which must be attended to. CI peter
I'll pitch in on this. The earliest posts mentioned that the Redbirds have no door sensors. The end doors tend to open randomly (I've only seen this happen on the 7, though).
You also have to realize that they've been here for 40 years. natural wear and tear takes its toll on any rolling stock and can eliminate the chances for maintenance or GOH's to bring it back to life. Also, I guess you can say the 'birds aren't ADA compliant.
yes !
Of course you could keep the stocks rolling until everyone is fed up and switches to their own cars (this happens here in Auckland so I don't see why this doesn't heppen in the USA too). Or something like a serious "incidents" will happen. Usually rolling stocks have a life span of 40 years: anything more than that, it is not safe enough to be put in service.
Furthermore, a society must continually improve in order to maintain competitveness in this age of globalisation and to provide greater comfort to its residents. Basically you can't stick with the 60s trains forever. The old must be thrown out to make way for the new, otherwise the society will just stagnate. (Trust me, this has happened in Hong Kong, where no rolling stocks are older than 25 years old. And the stocks in MTR and KCR made in late 1970s and early 1980s were just refurbished a couple of years ago)
Kinda makes me wish I was living in Cuba, where the NEWEST American cars are from 1959!
The carbodies may be from the 50s, but chances are many of them have newer engines and/or transmissions.
Oh yes, you're quite right. I have an article from Car and Driver which was written several years ago titled "Riding with Ricardo", profiling a Cuban cab driver and his '57 Chevy. This car was retrofitted to run on kerosene, since kerosene is more plentiful and less expensive over there. I'd like to see one of today's shitboxes last that long :o)
Why do cars have to last that long? Maybe it's better that cars today won't last that long, so a country we start hating now won't survive as long.
If you truly feel a hatred for the United States, what the hell are you doing here? I LOVE America, and feel that anyone who doesn't should get the hell out! How dare you! I didn't spill my blood overseas to hear that kind of garbage!
I don't understand how you could construe my post as a hatred of the United States.
WE means the United States. It's blatantly obvious to everyone that the US hates Cuba. If the US started hating a country now, and it was stuck with 90s cars and they don't last as long, then what'll happen when they run out?
They'd be driving shiny new Peugots and Citroens. :)
WRONG!!! Most Americans hardly know what or where Cuba is today. They are people just like us trapped in a socio/economic zone left over from the 60's. The last brigade after 'Bay of Pigs' trained down the road from my New Jersey residence. I would rather go to the beaches of Cuba than Miami. Better people, more friendlier, far more diverse culture and we are far more welcome. 'China Y Cubano, 100% Criolla.' AND I would take employement there to fix subways!!! CI Peter
I don't think anybody is going to doubt that American cars from 1959 are better than Russian cars from any time.
i say its the mothers fault for her stupidity,i bet she,like the rest of em,was trying to hold the doors open to get in.so in reality,the TA is right,it is her fault.thats what she gets for holding the doors for NO reason whatsoever except wanting to catch THAT train because she's too eagered to get where she's going and didnt want to waste anymore time waiting for another.and how much ya wanna bet,that she's gonna sue the TA when its her fault and the people of the court,with some INSANE and DUMB reason,say its thier fault and that woman gets "X" millions of dollars just like a couple of months ago some stupid woman got $14million for being on the tracks for NO REASON AT ALL and sued them cause they were the cause of the problem.anyone remember that one?
the blame oughta be on the mom. baby carriages in the subway simply should be outlawed. i've seen people jam them in doors they know are about to close.
First thing i do when reading posts is check for the presence of an expert, the TrainDude. Sans his expertise, i will answer. Every Redbird door has a 'passenger safety switch' that must be closed before the T/O receives indication and is able to move the trainset. We test these switches for proper operation in 'Carbody Inspection' and they must engage with less than one quarter inch of door play with the door securely closed. We also test the circuits for continuity/voltage drop (37.5 volts is true battery...voltage drop in each car is acceptable when below 1.0 volts...ten volt or less voltage drop still allows door relays going trainline to properly operate.) TWO possiblities: first is microswitch in specific door failed and allowed indication on a jammed open door....second is the C/R looks out, does not observe object jammed in door AFTER T/O calls him about loss of indication AND assuming a door malfunction, the T/O
uses his bypass switch to obtain indication and moves train with baby carriage squished between doors.
Baby carriage does not belong in subway cars or passenger thoroughfares. My next test of an R142 will include placing a 2 X 4 board between jogging doors and to see if i can do bypass to obtain indication. CI Peter
"Baby carriage does not belong in subway cars or passenger thoroughfares"
On the contrary. Baby strollers are very acceptable on trains when properly handled. They are acceptable on elevators but are unsafe on escalators and stairways.
Transit employees who would make the system less accessible to families with children do not belong in the subway.
Shoe Paddle fight!!!!!!! Grandmother comes into the Lex with a full size twin jogging stroller with two brats running about in a crowded R142A trainset. Doors are blocked. Any large package, Bicycle, handtruck or baby carriage that obstrucks passenger egress is NOT allowed. Period!!! You fold up the baby carraige and hand carry the children. On City streets, mothers will cellphones often push the carraige into moving traffic very aware of the red light and drivers must stop their vehicles. Same for subways...shove a baby carriage into a door or hold up passengers egress and the crew must hold the train and RTO does charge them for the delay.
Transit employees who make the system less accessible to families with children do not belong in the subway. Transit employees who do their job properly and are not afraid of a phoney G2 will stop the movement of baby carriages and any other large wheeled objects which affect passenger safety. It's in the Blue Book...look it up. CI Peter
I loathe small children during rush hour.
They belong in school anyway!
I especially like it when they trip when leaving the car. Doors close and screaming little bastards are left on the platform.
Unfortunately, you're the one who doesn't seem to kjnow the rules. MTA allows bicycles on subways; the website does advise riders to put bikes on the B Division lines, however.
I agree with you that, once on the train, the equipment should be folded up. A stroller should not be left to block egress or entry to trains.
I'm not fighting with you - just trying to enlighten you a little. You're a transit professional, and can be held to a higher standard than the passengers whse safety you oversee. They're paying you for that.
--MTA allows bicycles on subways; the website does advise riders to put bikes on the B Division lines, however. --
REALLY!!! Great, now I can take my bike to Central park, instead of only Pelham Bay.
Bicycles are allowed along with wheelchairs, unicycles, skateboards, folding scooters (I have one and used it between subway stops on my last job until I discovered 'all day pass,) boxes bags, satchels....anything until IT BECOMES A HAZARD AND YOU ARE ASKED TO LEAVE THE SUBWAY!!! So I had this heavy luggage cart...carried TWO cartons with a Mitsubishi thermal dye transfer printer in each weighing about fifty pounds AND my tool kit weighing in at another fifty pounds. Cringed when TA looked me over...stood in corners and waited until crowds of passengers were off the platform. Safety is number one in the system...passengers common sense often goes out the window for personal convienence. CI Peter
I doubt that a train crew, yet alone CREW, would collectively scheme to use side door bypass without notifying the Command Center. I propose a third scenario that reslted in this incident. Take the stub end of a shoe panel, place it on the center of the side door threshold plate of one of these "birds", then close the side doors. slide the two door panels fully to the left, allowing the right hand door to close and lock, then fighting the bumpback feature spring, see if you can clear the left hand panel. Then imagine it is a passenger's foot. Post your results if you dare, I'd bet they couldn't dump them in the ocean fast enough.
The crew didn't scheme...just an unfortunate incident as they probably could not see the carraige jammed between doors. Agree with third scenario...really extension of second. My OTJ experience is still limited BUT we're on the same wavelegnth and I'm sure TA engineering knows about it all...and I expect many 'newer trainsets' to have the same fault. Question is if the R142s computer control systems would allow such an overide without locking out a 'defective door/door pair/door control unit.' Warning understood loud and clear. CI Peter
Grounded Shoe Beam: E-mail me sometime. Demonstration today of end door condition was amazing on an inspected carbody. One hand width and T/O indication...took a little stregnth but panic can do it. CI Peter
Amusing what the folks who pound the rails for a living catch, eh? :)
(say no more, this ain't the place)
And we are serious about safety.
LOL
Maybe some orange colored vests ... :)
what if this happened 2 a R-62 ....or....R-142 ....??
-----------silence-----???......no speaka english ??
I do not do every trainset BUT chances are that everyone up to the R62/68 series can have lack of T/Os indication overided by a release button. I'll be getting some vacation time but I will seriously look into this. Test is simple: On normalised trainsets, place one foot long 2 X 4 between open doors, close doors, wait a moment and then attempt to overide lack of indication and move train (operation of group box into first point for Redbirds in static condition....we do have a jumper cable installed for static tests.) I'll inquire. CI Peter
i see your point ....as long as i have some birds to kiss i will B
verry happy this setember for sure 4 5 7 .... ??
R62s would not have indication and R142s would repoen automatically
The conductor is the guy I feel sorry for. Out of service, visit the TA doctor, work the hot platform till the investigation is completed. All because of the stupidity ot this negligent mother putting the baby carriage in the doorway as the doors were closing. Equal blame to the TA for not having the new rubber in the doors.
Location: Ballston Metro in paid area
Time 8:15AM
Date: (see posting date)
Incident: Photographer with medium format camera with tripod, standing over the platform. He was standing over the middle of the station platform, clear of the foot traffic pattern.
Remarks: Two Metro Transit Law Enforcement types in SWAT type uniform (combat boots, pants in the top of boots, etc) standing to the rear right and left of the photographer watching him remove the camera.
Comments: Water drinkers are hard to catch in the act. Photographers with tripods are easy to catch.
Yes, and their hats had giant Orange Dots to let the public know that they were Orange Line SWAT members, not to be confused with Blue, Green or any other line......
Actually, on the water drinkers comment, a lot of folks have been noticing more trash (myself included), due, in part to the removal of all trash cans after 9/11.
well BART has wised up and started putting garbage containers out again. However the ultra-paranoid bathroom closure has only backed off in the upscale burbs.
MARTA replaced their cans with heavy guage steel bomb proof garbage cans. Of course, some idiot in charge hasn't realized that many of the old garbage cans are still in the stations. Makes the whole thing pointless.
... and then ...?
I didn't see what happen later as I was going to a training class off-site. But the photographer looked a bit PO. He was not blocking traffic and in the clear. I guess the thing that got the police attention was the use of a tripod. I guess it is ok to use a hand held camera with a flash, than to set up a machine gun mount, err tripod and stand still.
I think the TA also gets antsy over tripods, unless you have a press pass, and they definitely hate flash.
If you scroll down a bit, there's a thread concerning BVE and how one of my subway photographs made it in to the Yonge-University-Spadina line simulation. SelkirkTMO sent me a screenshot because I had no idea what picture had been used. That photograph, a night shot of T1s in Davisville station taken in early 2000 and obviously predating September 11 by a couple of years, landed me in hot water with the TTC's transit patrol because my 35mm camera was mounted atop an evil three legged mars walker! Seriously, given the amount of trouble I got for taking that photograph, I'm glad to see that it's been put to good use.
Back to this photographer in Washington, I'll bet he was pissed off. I certainly was when it happened to me, and at that time there was absolutely no excuse at all. At least these people appear to have had the sense not to arrest the guy or confiscate his film. With respect to the garbage issue, what were these doorknobs expecting to happen when they removed the garbage cans?
-Robert King
>>> ... and then ...? <<<
Possibly held incommunicado in a secret location as an "enemy combatant."
Tom
"Possibly held incommunicado in a secret location as an "enemy combatant." "
Was he also protesting the second Av Subway?
:0)
I noticed theres a track in the middle between Smith9 and 4av/Culver. It's a dead end right before it reaches the Smith9 station. What was/is the purpose of this track? Was is intended to go "somewhere" or is is just for relay/storage/lay-ups?
I have no idea what that track is there for. Layups? It's not positioned right, and in any event you have a whole yard down at Church. Expect it to disappear when the signal system is redone, like the fourth tracks on the Dyre and Sea Beach lines and the unused trackage at Broadway Junction.
It is/was used simply as a turnaround spur track. It sees a bit of traffic during the winter for snowbird turnarounds and can be used for work train turnarounds/layovers year round. The track can hold 10 cars but no more, and it ends at a bumping block on a steep downgrade surrounded by solid walls. Also, there is a 5 mph speed limit on this spur due to the steep grade that exists.
When it finally comes time to get rid of some B Division cars, they could always remove the bumper block, drive the trains down the track, position some barges in the Gowanus and just let the cars fall right onto them. All they'd need is a place for the T/O to jump off (yeah, the barges probably wouldn't be much good after the first set of cars "arrived," but it would be fun to watch anyway....)
Barges? Just reef 'em right in the Gowanus. Splash!
What a waste of good reef. The Gowanus is practically entirely dead...hardly a single thing lives in it. Too much oil, i guess.
I still think it would be neat if a few R-46's were "accidentally" sent down the wrong track (without crews or passengers, of course).
Why does that track descend, anyway?
I still think it would be neat if a few R-46's were "accidentally" sent down the wrong track (without crews or passengers, of course).
I was thinking more in line with any future retirement of the R-44s, though my other option -- a "Farewell to the R-44s" trip involving two trains at a time headed the opposite direction aruond the Cresent St. curve on the J/Z, is also an alternative.
Of course, aerodynmically, sending the Slants into the Gowanus would disrupt the least amount of surface area on the water (though the added weight of the R-44s might even out the pentration depth into the canal, despite their less-adaptable fronts), but since I like the R-40s I'd prefer not to see them taker a high-dive off the Ninth St. viaduct.
I had always thought this was the purpose of that track.....allowing new IND cars to be delivered from the Gowanas canal docks. Before the 1950's, how were new IND cars delivered, since no track connections with the other divisions yet existed?
since no track connections with the other divisions yet existed?
You do not *need* a connection to another division to deliver railcars, but you might need a connection to another railroad.
Does not the IND connect to the LIRR at the Jamaica Yard?
What about connections at the 207th Stret yard, and the 205th street Concourse Yards. Either one of these ought to have connected with the New York Central System.
Elias
I think new IND/BMT cars are brought to 207 Street yard by barge. IRT cars maybe are brought to Lenox Yard the same way. If there is a connection between the subway and the railroad, I don't know of any. If there is one, I'm sure smeone will point it out. But there is no LIRR near Jamaica Yard.
Fresh Pond on the NY&A (formerly LIRR Bay Ridge Line).
But that would not have connected to the IND in the days when the IND was first built.
I think there *is* a connection at the Jamaica yard, at the north end of the yard, leastwise it looks like it *could* be so on the yard maps shown on this site. (Download the "Big GIFs PKZIP file" at http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/
Elias
Trust me, there is NO connection from any other railway, LIRR or otherwise, to Jamaica Yard. None whatsoever.
:( What about at 76th Street? : )-
There's a connection to the Orient Express there....
Is that via Simplon or via Venice?
Besides, Jamaica didn't open until what, 1937? The A would have been running for 5 years, and 1200 R1 thru R6 cars would have already been on IND property.
I looked at my maps, and I guess Jamaica Yard is not where I thought it was in relation to the PtWash lion.
Elias
But there is no LIRR near Jamaica Yard.
Once upon a time...
in a subway yard long long ago....
Serving the 1939 Worlds Fair
did not a pax line run from the Jamaica Yard to the Worlds Fair?
Just 'cause their ain't one there now might not mean that there was one NEVER there!
And there it is on a 1939 World's Fair Map!
But the station was still south of Horace Harding Boulevard and nowhere near the LIRR!
OOOOO..... me bad!
Elias
That was a temporary IND line.
The only connection to the LIRR now is the L/3/Bay Ridge Branch/Linden shops connection in Brownsville, and the Bush Terminal tconnection to the West End. 180th was once connected to the New Haven line tracks.
I know the connection south of E180 is no more. I believe there is a bus depot there.
There is a connection between the L and the 3 to te LIRR?
There is a connection from 59 Street along Bush Terminal up to 36 Street?
since no track connections with the other divisions yet existed?
You do not *need* a connection to another division to deliver railcars, but you might need a connection to another railroad.
Does not the IND connect to the LIRR at the Jamaica Yard?
What about connections at the 207th Stret yard, and the 205th street Concourse Yards. Either one of these ought to have connected with the New York Central System.
Elias
For the longest time I thought that track went into a building directly under the structure. But I think it's just a turning track. I have noticed a staircase at the end of the track.
where in the blue hell is this track? it's not the two in the middle where the G turns around, is it?
where in the blue hell is this track? it's not the two in the middle where the G turns around, is it?
No, it's the 5th track which switches off from both express tracks down a ramp shortly before you arrive at Smith/9th.
how the hell did i never see this? hmm...
The moral of the story: Be careful what you wish for.
Up until last night, Chicagoland had been experiencing a bit of rainfall shortage. I'm not quite sure if it was bad enough to be officially considered a draught, but we had gone quite a while without any significant rain.
Well, beginning yesterday evening, northern Illinois has been the recipient of about 5-8" of rainfall, with more to come through Friday. Not surprisingly, this rain found its way into the State Street Subway and managed to disrupt service on the Red Line for several hours during this morning's rush. Red Line trains were rerouted "over the top" via the Brown Line and Green Line tracks, causing mass congestion on the Loop 'L' that had trains backed up all the way to Fullerton.
There's no word on how the Blue Line subway was impacted.
In other news:
The Edens Expressway was shut down in both directions at Pratt Avenue and at Willow Road due to flooding.
Parts of the Eisenhower Expressway were also closed.
Several underpasses under Lake Shore Drive are closed due to standing water.
The westbound lanes of I-190 leading into O'Hare Airport were closed at Manheim Road.
Delays up to 90 minutes at O'Hare.
15,000 ComEd customers without power.
Swimming is banned on Chicago's beaches, as the Water Reclamation District was forced to open the locks on the Chicago River to allow floodwaters to drain into Lake Michigan.
Story in the Chicago Tribune (registration required):
Heavy rains close roads; CTA subway reopens
Story in the Chicago Sun-TImes (no registration required):
Storms flood roads, snarl CTA lines
-- David
Chicago, IL
Frederick MD could use some. Want to truck some over to them?
Story: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Drought-Maryland.html
Freeze them and put them in gons. Snow train of the Pheobe fame. AEM7
We sure could use some in Colorado. Our reservoir levels are at 58% now.
Hoarder!! In Baltimore we are down to 48% in the City, and poor Frederick is below 40%. Shallow wells in Anne Arundel and Carroll counties are going dry. Well drillers are backed up three weeks drilling deeper wells. Water rationing is mandatory in Frederick, restrictions are in effect in Central Maryland. Baltimore has been drawing up to 56 million gallons per day from the Susquehanna River but has had to reduce the draw to 48 million.
Rainfall is 9" below regular levels, ground water is 12-13" low. We are experiencing a major drought, 3rd worst in Maryland weather history.
Washing of vehicles by hose forbidden. BSM has stopped washing streetcars, since we are in Baltimore City. The MTA has stopped washing LRV's. Buses yard have mechanical washers that recycle water so they get washed.
I think this calls for construction of the long-planned Chicago-Lima-Steubenville-Baltimore Canal, which will be able to quickly and effectively redistribute the rainfall from the Midwest to the Eastern seaboard. Call your congressman and tell him to vote for the CLSB Canal Bill.
Frank Hicks
How are you going to get the water over the Alleghaney Mountains or is this something promoted in 1810 and the Baltimore is the one in Ohio?
Stay with the interurbans and streetcars, it's much less controversial.
The Tribune is now reporting that the CTA Blue Line was shut down for several hours this afternoon because of flooding, and has just recently been re-opened. O'Hare trains were turned back at Grand Avenue, and Congress / Douglas trains were turned back at LaSalle, with shuttle busses filling in the gap.
Out in the suburbs, the Fox River and Des Plaines River are rapidly approaching flood stages. Metra hasn't reported any disruptions on its commuter rail network.
I'll post more information if anything develops.
-- David
Chicago, IL
They said on the news that the Deep Tunnel was filled, which is why they had to open the flood gates to Lake Michigan. Hmmm...
Whenever I hear "the northwest suburbs are being hit the hardest" as I am today, I worry about IRM. Our last enormous flood was in 1978, when the entire wye and central property area was under water, but we also had a somewhat smaller flood in 1996 (I think) that managed to cost us a total of at least $40,000 in traction motor damage. Yecch.
Frank Hicks
I think that rain is heading our way in NY. They say it will be a rainy weekend. And we need the rain. Everything is turning brown here.
Seems to me the LOOP could avoid some of that congestion when the Red Line is rerouted for any period of timeby thru-routing Midway-Ravenswood trains or Evanston trains.
I just found this out. Anyone who has visited Bob DiStefano's site: http://www.subwaywebnews.com/ will be in for a disappointment. Bob has been asked by the MTA to remove all transit related photos and information. Since Bob is a TA employee (a Train Service Supervisor) he probably didn't have much choice. (I am sure he was more told than asked). Government censorship is easy when you work for them.
Removal of all the great photos and information that Bob had in effect shut him down. Our railfan community is that much poorer because of it.
I wonder if the MTA contacted Dave or even Harry and tried to do the same thing to their sites.
Why would MTA do this? It seems insane.
Beats me.
I guess the MTA is really paranoid about what is going on in the world and is getting its hands on what it know it can control (one way or the other).
I sent an email to Bob expressing my concern and offering my moral support. I hope others will do that as well.
Maybe they stole the idea from the Mets, who just shut down the popular Metsonline.net.
No, I haven't been contacted.
They really have no business doing so anyway (the other guy has no choice if he works for them though, I guess). Dave's site says in many places, and is very clear that it has NO association and is NOT run by the MTA. Possibly the other site didn't make that clear?
MTA cannot force anyone who is not an MTA employee (or under contracting rules as the case may be) to do anything to a website unless MTA intellectual property is involved.
Hence, nyrail.org's shop which sold official route symbology would be subject to a cease and desist order, unless a licensing agreement were pursued.
They can't shut down nycsubway.org.
They "could" complain that the photos of trains might show official MTA logos. I suppose you could get around that by doing a "photoshop" blur on each of the logos but I figure a query to an intellectual property lawyer would be worthwhile before undertaking that sort of thing. I suppose that if it were found to be an actual infraction of their rights they could sue for a load of damages making it financially difficult to fight and fund the site simultaneously.
Granted. One's rights are only as secure as one's ability to defend.
A poor defendant can try to generate publicity (and embarass the plaintiff). Sometimes that works.
Personally, I think it's not in MTA's interest to bother you. On the whole, you're an asset to them. Besides, they usually have bigger fish to fry.
I think the site actually portrays a great image of the subway (and MTA). There is nothing here that they should be able to find that shows them in a negative light.
Agreed. That's why MTA should, at minimum, leave Dave alone (they do) and look favorably upon opportunities to show off their stuff here, as in forwarding photographs of rolling stock or facilities that Dave doesn't have, or offer some other small favors...
The NYCT sent Dave the Courtlandt St photos after 9/11, so they deserve a little credit.
Truly amazing. Maybe they're not so bad after all.
"They "could" complain that the photos of trains might show official MTA logos."
I don't think so. Those logo's are displayed in a public place and you are just showing a photo of that public place. This site would be more of a photojournalism site as opposed to a commercial site where you are making money off the logo.
It would be as you had a photo of a street scene and Pepsi told you to remove it because a deli in the photo has a Pepsi sign on it.
(Or there was a Toyota in the shot and the Toyota logo was on that)
Maybe Unca Dave should negotiate with the MTA for "placement fees" for the logos. :)
Yeah, blank 'em out in Photoshop and type over it "Your logo here". LOL
"It would be as you had a photo of a street scene and Pepsi told you to remove it because a deli in the photo has a Pepsi sign on it.
"
If you were filimng a movie you would tell Pepsi that the Pepsi logo WOULD be obscured unless Pepsi paid you $$$ to leave it in!
Yeah, in some movies it's overly obvious. For example, in the recent Men in Black movie, Burger King must have paid big bucks for the very obvious (almost sickening) product placement in that movie
Ron,
No argument there but unfortunately it appears they are being very heavy handed with those who are employees.
True they can't shut down nycsubway.org but IIRC very early on they did give Dave some trouble regarding the use of NYC subway in the site name. So that doesn't mean they wouldn't try.
> IIRC very early on they did give Dave some trouble regarding the
> use of NYC subway in the site name
No. Never heard from them. On any matter.
In fact I had the domain name registered for about six months before I used it. Just in case they might notice & complain.
Really?
I could have sworn there was some issue.
Oh, well at my age the mind plays tricks. :)
It was WMTA who asked the track maps to be removed.
Arti
In fact, it was WMATA who requested the DC Metrorail's track map to be removed.
Chaohwa
No wonder Subway fares are so high. Those trains are BRAND NAME! We should be able to ride generic trains.
HEHEH
Tuch ran generic trains for a while, no? For the GECCP? :-)
AEM7
I have been asked by NYCT to remove some small sections of my website and complied. However, this was months ago.
-Harry
www.nycrail.com
What kind of things did they ask you to remove?
Chirs
See post # 374107
Dave asked a similar question
-Harry
Harry,
Hypothetically, if you had not been an intern with the TA and didn't have the relationship that you do have with them (a relationship which I think you should keep), would you have complied with their request?
No, but only because I wasn't contacted by their legal department. If they had some reason to bring in lawyers I still would have complied.
-Harry
I have been asked by NYCT to remove some small sections of my website and complied. However, this was months ago.
-Harry
www.nycrail.com
Would you be willing to post specifics (or email me)? I was wondering what they could have possibly asked you to remove, and not me.
Mostly the towers section of my website. I had about 60 photos of various towers including photos of the unmarked hallways one must travel to get to them etc...
Some of these photos were taken while I was interning at the TA so I figured the least I could do was comply.
-Harry
www.nycrail.com
Yeah, they do seem to be extremely paranoid about the towers. After our get together at Christmas, Nancy and I went to visit some towers I used to hang out in years ago and in each spot, we were challenged just coming near the bay windows, much less asking to come inside. You could just FEEL the tension among the guys and supervision inside and we were repeatedly asked WHY we were looking at the "big board" through the window.
Reminds me of Dr Strangelove, "You're going to let those Russkies see the BIG BOARD?!?!?!" :)
Yeah I suppose that could be a sore point. There are some photos of towers here of course but they were taken on tours they offered (and at which they allowed photography). It's hard for them to object to that after the fact.
Yeah, a few years back I went on a tour of Coney Island yard with the LI Sunrise Trail Chapter of NRHS. It was a fun tour and we were allowed to take all kinds of photographs of the complex and the tower.
A friend in NYCT tipped me off that this was going to happen. But I just don't understand the way that EVERYTHING was purged. I mean the piece I wrote about AirTrain was taken down as well. What did that have to do with NYCT Operations?
It's just not right.
Government censorship is easy when you work for them.
This is unfortunate, but it isn't necessarily government censorship. Employers in general have the right to demand a certain level of confidentiality as a condition of employment.
This is especially true when you have access to non-public information or non-public areas.
There's an archived copy from November 7 at http://web.archive.org/web/20011107183733/http://www.subwaywebnews.com/. It's incomplete, but you may find something of interest there.
(Incidentally, when I first discovered archive.org, I tried to browse through old service advisories -- those who know me won't be surprised at all. Unfortunately, the service advisories aren't in the archive.)
Here's my take on it. As a retired employee in a supervisory position it's my contention that photos of subway cars, whether taken from public vantage points or by employees in the yard are just that, photos of subway cars. There are no trade secrets or car design blueprints to be smuggled by foreign governments. I can understand certain locations being sensitive, ie, Dispatchers Offices and Interlocking Towers but give us a break. Photos of subway and elevated cars are a tribute to the TA not a negative black eye that needs to be eradicated. It's unfortunate to see that, in over thirty years, there is a certain amount of consistency when it comes to the TA. They were asses when I worked for them and they continue to be asses right up to the present.
Heh. Motion seconded and carried. And let's face it, about all you can do with the way interlocking works is let the Russkies see "the big board" ... or worse, sending an A train to Queens. In the greater scheme of being a ne'er-do-well, there's much better toys to play with out there. Too many study groups and too little to do. A thinning of the ranks across all state agencies will soon be at hand. I see some potential titles to abolish here. :)
I don't remember if Bob's site had anything but the usual shots of trains, stations, etc. taken from public areas, but if not, I can't see what the possible objection would be. In any case, it's a shame it's gone.
Will the T A let you take videos or photos of the subway now? has anyone been asked to stop ?
Yes, they will. Just don't block platforms with a tripod and be courteous to other passengers.
Really a shame I just found that site a week or so ago. Very infomitive site. I think there is a bigger picture here then closing a subway site. Seems like every year we as Americans are losing more and more of our freedoms. Of course this in the name of national security. So know Big Brother is worried about we people who happen to like subway trains and how they work. This is America land of the free.
And sadly, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists WANTED. :(
Geez, you guys really don't get it, do you...?
I suppose not. Want to fill us miscreants in? :)
"Geez, you guys really don't get it, do you...?"
Are you just pointing out that the MTA has the legal right to tell its employees to cease certain activities.
If so, of course that's true. That doesn't make it a good management decision for them to exercise that right. It doesn't mean that we have no right to be disappointed and angry that a subsidiary of our government is wasting its time on frivolous concerns and reducing our fun at the same time.
Or are you of the opinion that the subway information posted on that or other sites is actually of use to terrorists and can't easily be duplicated by personal observation? If so, you need to ride some subways and see how easy it is to observe some basic facts related to security, far more detailed than anything posted on these sites.
It would seem that the function of government these days is to crush "fun" so that we can do our patriotic duty of storing grains and hunkering in the bunker in order to ensure a lousy economy and full unemployment. (where *ARE* those militia guys now that we need 'em?)
And as far as the "terrorists" gathering important data, it would certainly seem obvious by now from all those collected videotapes CNN and CBS have been airing, along with other published accounts of terrorist training manuals, that they've ALREADY GOT anything that would have been useful to them and all this after the fact removal activity is akin to closing the Pakistani border almost a MONTH after we "went in" ... kinda pointless NOW ... but I digress.
Disregard that man behind the blue curtain.
I am posting the URL of a job opening in MTA Government and Community Relations here, because people who post here are familiar with all sorts of issues about MTA. Many of you write well too, judging from your posts. And you're obviously interested in transit.
If any of you think you might like to work with geographic information systems, and/or deal with MTA customer issues, take a look at: http://www.mta.info/mta/jobs/02056.htm
OK I definately need some tech help. I wasn't able to get to this site again getting a page not found error. Now I am just able to get in but the msg index is loading very slowly and no inline images are coming in.
Since nobody else, even those with AOL seem to be having this problem, it must be on my machine. I cleared out the temp internet files folder and even deleted the cookies from nycsubway.org to no avail, also cleared out history. Since I may not be able to get through again if you know what might be wrong please email me. Thx.
No, it's AOL...I guarantee you. It's a war to access this site.
You're paying for "24 hour a day friendly support" from AOL. Might want to try using it. :)
If this continues, I will contact AOL.
This site had intermittant problems earlier today. Pressing reload fixes it.
AEM7
Is this G/O correct? I know the TA cancels G/O faster then Dahmer canceled dinner plans.
"Coney Island-bound trains run express on the N from 36 St to Stillwell Av
Weekday, 10 AM to 3 PM Mon to Fri, Aug 19 to 30"
Sounds like fun! Tomorrows railfan trip, perhaps! :)
Wheeeee! this should be fun!
Not to crap on your thread, but I've ridden similar GO's on the N and they don't go *that* fast. Eventhough they have a lot of track with which to gain speed, the speed just doesn't happen. But you should definitly ride it tomorrow because maybe things have changed.
---Brian
It's still good, though. 59th to Coney non-stop! THAT'S an express! As Austin Powers would say: "Yeah, baby!"
Well, that depends on how you define non-stop. Somewhere near Ft Hamilton pkway is a timer that clears around 8mph; then you speed up, only to slow down for X400 at the north end of Bay Parkway, which may or may not change; then one more spurt before stopping completely nrth of Kings Highway to punch (and wait for) the line-up to E3 Track, to be followed by a possible stop near 86 St to allow relaying N trains to get past.
I know Fred would love it.:)
I dun get it. If you guys wanna ride a fast train, why not ride the Northeast Direct. It's faster than anything will be on the NYC subway.
AEM7
I'm more of a subway fan, and you feel it more on the subway.
That is true. I miss the days when you could lean out the windows on a rail railroad. Well you still can, but better not get caughtue
Or, you could end up like the victim in a famous Tim Burton flick. 10 points if you guess which one.
"Speed"?
??? What happens in that movie?
Beheadings. LOTS of them.
And what has leaning out of windows on railroad cars got to do with beheadings?
Oh, slamming your head into a bridge pier or tunnel portal, stuff like that. That's how Darwin Awards are given out.
And isn't it up to you to know the line sufficiently well that you don't put your head out where there is restricted clearance? Ever heard about the kinametic envelope? Ever heard about oversize loads? Most passenger trains are designed to smaller loading gauge than freight cars, so in many areas you can have your head out there and nothing will happen to you even if another train zooms past at full speed on the opposite track. But it *is* up to you to *know* where the restricted clearance points are.
It's actually pretty hard to slam your head into a bridge or a tunnel. You'd have to be extending at least 1 ft from the carbody in most places. Let me emphasize: MOST places. There are definitely restricted clearance tunnels around the place, and if you don't know where they are, then I guess you shouldn't put your head out the window.
AEM7
On the May 26 redbird trip, the conductor dude (who was the greatest guy ever) was telling us all about how he was a conductor and all sorts of stories. He let us lean out his window on some elevated structures and he told us that the signals WILL knock your head off, and oh boy they will (scared the shit out of me when we were stopped at a signal and it was like right next to the train..the most that anyone would know is the doors don't open. I can see it now...
R142a Scenario:
"This is Brook Avenue."
(Train stops...doors remain shut, computer decides to take matters into its own hands...er wires)
"Ladies and gentlemen we apologize for the unavoidable---Stand"
(Train moves...)
Because the NYC Subway only costs $1.50 or less and is "free" if you already have an unlimited metrocard. NE Direct costs $$$ and time.
I only railfan the Northeast Direct. I guess I am a snob. I love the Boston subways but I just don't railfan it, I just ride it if I need to go somewhere. It's always fun when riding express trains but not that much fun because they have to slow down to 25mph when passing the stations anyway. I always wave at the people we leave behind on the platforms.
Yeah when I'm at the railfan window I wave to people sometimes. And if you only do expensive railfanning, you wouldn't be a snob, you would be a yuppie :)
I actually think railfanning the Northeast Direct is cheaper than actually riding it. Railfanning costs are whatever it takes for you to drive out to location (or take the commuter rail) and the actual cost of riding is higher but you can't do much railfanning while riding, except to follow the progress of the train on a map. You can observe the interlockings, bridges etc much better if you drive.
Again I never take Northeast Direct trips just for the purpose of railfanning, but if I have any excuse to travel e.g. on company or project expenses then I will pick the Northeast Direct whenever I can. Much more fun that way. Ride the NEDirect, and earn $$$.
AEM7
Expresses in NYC operate on separate express tracks and don't slow down for local stations.
I know that. I was trying to point out that Expresses are no fun to ride in BOS. Also I imagine where express tracks don't exist, NYC subways would be subject to a similar restriction to avoid dragging people off the platform.
They might be if Boston's subway and light rail lines had express tracks, but they don't. Even the old Orange Line el was only two tracks.
In NYC, subway trains are required to slow to 10 mph (IIRC) when reaching the signal at the end of any passed platform -- not so much for the benefit of the waiting passengers, but because the signal system is designed with that assumption in mind. (IINM, a lot of money was spent on the two lines with skip-stop to modify the signals so that assumption isn't necessary.)
For some reason, A Division T/O's usually abide by this rule (or at least they slow down substantially) while B Division T/O's often pass through stations at full speed.
15 mph
I could have sworn it was 10 mph. Could this differ between A and B Divisions or am I just remembering wrong? (I'm not a T/O so don't blame me for making you late to work or causing congestion.)
It's 15 MPH, systemwide, by rule. The newer signal installations allow for 35 MPH, but it isn't done (except that it WAS done on the Broadway IRT in the vicinity of 125th Street after the signals were modified to allow it -- any IRT Train Operators out there want to tell us whether that's still in effect?).
David
Okay, I stand corrected.
I thought the Broadway modifications were to allow for skip-stop, so why were the signals modified in the vicinity of 125th Street, south of the skip-stop area? In my limited experience in riding the skip-stop 1/9, trains have generally slowed to about 15 mph (maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, but definitely not 35) through skipped stops.
Incidentally, if the relevant TW/O (at 137th?) feels ambitious enough, whichever trains bypass 145th (1's, IIRC, but it's been a year) could be rerouted NB on the middle track, allowing them to run past at full speed. I don't know if having to switch would negate the savings -- just tossing out an idea. (I was once on train that switched there, but only because a stalled train was blocking the local track. The same train then used the middle track north of Dyckman due to a GO. I got to ride on two tracks not normally used in passenger service on one trip -- not a bad deal.)
Timers on M Track approaching the merge north of 145 as well as the original switch from 4 to M would negate any savings from bypassing 145 in this way. Relevant TW/O is at 240 Yard. 137 Tower is only active for GOs.
Okay, just tossing out the idea. I'm surprised there are timers on M track approaching the merge -- it's a straight shot from there.
When I rode the skip stop on the 1 and 9, most T/Os would slow to about 20 MPH, but I don't remember any going 15 and definately not 10.
The LIRR only has two tracks through places where some trains skip stations. The trains don't slow down at all. I've seen them tear through stations on the Port Wash, Main/Ronkonkoma and Babylon lines while sustaining their 60+ speed. It's amazing that they clear the platforms with the heavy vibrations caused by their speed. Stand at New Hyde Park some rush hour and you'll see what I mean.
This often happens on MN as well, although most expresses run on the middle track provided on all three branches.
SIR expresses don't slow down when bypassing stops either. The whole line is two tracks.
Of course, NYC subway trains DO slow down and blow their horn when bypassing a stop whose platform they're directly passing. This happens during battery runs, and on the Broadway and Jamaica skip-stops.
Apparently people who ride the subways don't know enough to move away from the platform edge when a train is bypassing that stop, hence trains have to slow down and honk. But people who ride commuter railroads are sufficiently intelligent to stay away from the edge of the platform. All the train has to do is honk.
One thing I find amusing is when a train is in use to train C/R's and or T/O's and it is making simulated stops, people wait for the doors to open and act surprised when the train pulls out without opening. I guess the NOT IN SERVICE signs and the fact the train has no people on board doesn't give them a clue that this train will not be picking them up. I mean how many revenue service trains pull into 59 Street on the Lex with no people in the middle of the day?
I guess the NOT IN SERVICE signs and the fact the train has no people on board doesn't give them a clue that this train will not be picking them up.
What's also funny about that us that they get all excited that the train stops and wait for the doors to open. With a "not in service" sign on the train, I don't know where they think the train is going, as it doesn't say (only "not in service"), but they still get all excited when the train stops and would enter if the doors open!
You guys don't get it, you have been T/Os for too long.
The destination blinds are often set wrong, so sometimes a not-in-service train is actually a service train. The majority of people don't even look at the destination blind.
For the same reason subways need to slow down when going through platforms and commuter rails don't. People don't usually look at subway schedules, and station by-passes are usually ordered at short notice, so no one would know that the train is expressing past stations. On commuter rail, however, most people look at the schedule and knows in advance that a train will be an express.
Commuter rail platforms are also wider, and often has less people on it than a crowded subway platform, reducing the risk.
AEM7
"Commuter rail platforms are also wider, and often has less people on it than a crowded subway platform, reducing the risk"
Just one visit to an LIRR platform like New Hyde Park would disabuse you of that incorrect notion.
LIRR and Metro-North platforms feature a wider gap between train and platform edge; this allows trains to pass at higher speeds (up to 90 mph).
I would also speculate, but I do not know for certain, that yaw dampers on commuter rail MUs like the LIRR M-1's are more effective than the equipment on subway cars, thus allowing a higher speed through stations. If someone knows differently please so post.
Just one visit to an LIRR platform like New Hyde Park would disabuse you of that incorrect notion.
Compare the New Hyde Park platform to a busy subway station. More people in less space in the busy subway station.
...that yaw dampers on commuter rail MUs like the LIRR M-1's...
Wow, your new-learned vocabulary, a "yaw damper".
For a long time full-length "Pullman" Congressionals ran on New Haven trackage, the Shoreline, at full speeds hauled by EP-5's. Neither have yaw dampers on their trucks.
"Compare the New Hyde Park platform to a busy subway station. More people in less space in the busy subway station."
Not at rush hour. At rush hour they are nearly equal. I've been there and seen it.
the side platforms are usually smaller than subway platforms
I would say the main issue is a difference in culture. Subway passengers are accultureed to the idea that if a platform exists, the train will stop at it. On the commuter roads, a train may or may not stop and, indeed, may come thundering through. People get used to it real fast.
It's like every city has a different culture of pedestrians and cars at crosswalks.
You guys don't get it, you have been T/Os for too long.
I may not get it, but I'm not a T/O........
I was on an A "express" operating on the local track northbound between 14th and 34th last Monday evening around 10pm. I was in the lead car (R44s); we went through 23rd at top speed (i.e. we did not slow entering, through, or leaving the station), and the horn was not sounded.
And someday a TSS (or higher) will catch idiots like this and write them up. Then they will omplain to the union about being picked on. Meanwhile, they laugh at people who spill hot coffee and sue McDonalds.
About two weeks ago, I was standing on the platform at Carroll when a G train (carrying passengers) similarly blew past the northbound platform at full speed. At ten-minute headways, I hope not many people at Carroll were waiting specifically for a G.
Most users of these railroads are not on the platforms unless a train is scheduled to stop. People go up there a few minutes before they expect their train to arrive. And they also know that the train will not leave early. So when a flyer comes through there are few people there, and they do not need to lean over the edge to see the train.
Elias
I don't know about that Elias. I used to live in Fox River Grove Ill, on the Metra CNW (I'll never say U@!)-NW line. There was an express (really a local, the later 'local' passed it just outside Palentine, it just skipped our town) that shot through the town Citybound at about 7:15, and there was another train that stopped at about 7:18, the result was that the passengers waiting for their train had to stand trackside while this express zipped through at 70+mph, horn wailing. It was a neverending shock to me that nobody was ever killed on the tracks running to catch what they thought was their train. I did see one man almost get his head taken off, he leaned out to see if it was his train, and apparantly a grab iron the left side (CNW, left hand running, remember) on the express's cab car caught the top of his oversize novelty cowboy hat, destroying it utterly and giving both he and the engineer a good scare, he went BIE, the train screeched to a halt way down the track, and both he and one of the conductors ran back to see about the man, who was fine, although they did take him to the hospital.
A nasty one occured in Merrick (LIRR) before the line was elevated. A girl was trying to get her bike across the grade crossing (Yeah, the gates were down and all of that) but the wheel seemd to have caught in the trackway. She thought she had plenty of time as she tried to free it, after all the station was right there (and the train had to stop there, right?)
But this was an express and it flew across that grade crossing at 80 mph.
End of Story.
Not necessarily. Assuming a Regional train could be outfitted to run in the NYC Subway, a set of R46s would fry a Regional through the 60 Street Tunnel. This is the fastest stretch of track in the system.
It's one of the most common GO's. Miss it now and you'll catch it again later.
I just rode it yesterday. It took 21 minutes to get from 59th to Stillwell. We stopped for about a minute by New Utrecht. We stopped again at the usual place, the punch near Kings Highway. (Everywhere else, the signal system can keep track of where trains are. Here, the T/O has to inform it by stopping and punching. Then the signal takes its time to clear. We sat there for close to two minutes yesterday; the N train we had passed two stops earlier passed us back.) We stopped again a few stops later. Then we were held at the creek for a few minutes for a pocket at Stillwell to open up.
And it's really frustrating to the passengers trying to get to north end of the West End line. They have to get off the W, wait for the N behind it, take that to New Utrecht, and go upstairs to transfer back to the W. Rerouted W's should run local for their sake. (A side benefit is that Sea Beach stations would have direct access to Stillwell.)
Despite all that, it is fun.
In another thread, I posted four pictures I took at the railfan window of an N train running express. Look for "ATTENTION SEA BEACH FRED" in the subject line.
yeah its on,i rode the W on Tuesday just for that it wasnt bad but we did stop more than we were supposed to not to mention there was an N behind us and another W caught up to us on the local track.
yeah its on,i rode the W on Tuesday just for that it wasnt bad but we did stop more than we were supposed to not to mention there was an N behind us and another W caught up to us on the express track.
My co-worker just wrote this to me in an email. The event described below happened this morning on a train arriving at Times Square sometime between 8am and 8:30am.
------------
"On another note, this morning was a truly unique experience on the Flushing line. For the first time that I can remember, the 7 Express stayed express. That's right, folks, it skipped Hunterspoint, Vernon-Jackson, Grand Central, and 5th Avenue!!!! Other trains do this all the time, but this was a first for me on the 7. I kind of felt like a guinea pig, because the train was
navigating some tight curves at twice its regular speed (there was hardly any noticeable braking between 45 Rd and Times Square). Normally, it wouldn't have the opportunity to reach such speeds because of all the stops the train has to make."
------------
So, were any of you on that #7 train this morning, or do you know if this has ever happened before? Thanks.
---Brian
No one has any comments on this? None at all? Ok, I guess this wasn't as strange and cool an occurance as I thought it was.
I'm sure it's not unheard of, although bypassing Grand Central and 5th sounds unusual. I'm surprised the train didn't slow down at each station, though.
I was on an inbound J train yesterday afternoon that ran nonstop from Crescent to Alabama. That seemed odd to me. (Why Alabama? It's less busy than any of the stations the train bypassed.)
The train was behind schedule and given a battery run, probably. I've had that run in reverse, GC to QBP non-stop. I don't know, but the train may have also skipped 5th.
Dan
I was on a battery run last fall on the 7 in which a Flushing-bound local made only one stop betwen 74th St. and Main St. - Junction Blvd. The conductor repeated himself several times in making the announcement.
Does anybody here remember the worlds fair super express? I rode it as a kid. It went from TS-5av-GC-QBP-WF and was packed. It was the first time I rode the Flushing line. I think going back though I rode the local, because the expresses were running in peak rush direction.
I also think on the same day a water main break caused all BMT Bway service to be knocked out at Dekalb. The Brighton locals were running to Franklin. You couldn't do that today since they shortened the platforms and single tracked it.
I was on a #7 train on Sunday many months ago that skipped Vernon-Jackson, Hunters Pt. and 45 Rd. And why would the train move twice the normal speed on tight curves? That might have been perception.
On our ride, I noticed hardly any braking through stations also, and the motorman honked his horn several times in a station.
It really helped us to get on time to the destination we were going to 40 St.
That sound very strange. A 7 train skipping Grand Central and 5th Ave. Skips in Queens are very common, but not Manhattan.
Depends on the seriousness of what had happened. Major stations would get skipped if a serious "incident" (as TA calls it) happens at a major station, or if a train has some considerable lateness, and with another train following directly behind it, the train will be ordered to skip stops to maintain spacing between trains, and try to make up some time from the lateness. These are the only explanations I know of that can explain why a 7 train would make skips like that.
In order to skip Grand Central and 5 th Ave on a Manhattan-bound 7 train, and skip Hunters Point and Vernon-Jackson, you'd have to make the announcements no later than Court Sq.
And once the announcement is made, so many people would have to leave the train, and ask questions that by the time the train starts rolling again, you'll lose another 2 or 3 minutes. Trust me when I say that passengers won't quietly or quicky leave a s/b 7 train that skips GC and 5th. The train would be better off just stopping at Grand Central and 5th Ave. This skip makes no sense to me.
That's one of the reasons the common skips on the 1 make little sense. The confusion at (say) 72nd takes longer than stopping at 79th and 86th.
I've heard it once or twice on the radio, a really late train was told Times Sq-QBP, so it must be reaally rare, but they do it.
The thing that always annoyed me about skips, even when you have no confusion, is that it really doesn't save that much time. On the M once, we lost 10 minutes because a J went BIE at Myrtle, we went Myrtle -> Wycoff -> Fresh Pond -> Met. What could we have saved at most there, 2 1/2 minutes? What was the point?
I guess it just makes it easier for them to 'cook the books' by not having to lie so bad :) ...
It probably meant that a subsequent train could arrive closer to time.
Having a Metropolitan bound M train take a battery run from Myrtle/Wycoff to Fresh Pond saves almost no time since the t/o has to wait for the leaving grade time signals at Seneca & Forest to clear.
I got one that skipped 45th, HP, and VJ. A failed signal at Junction, and the Mets game ending (day game) made for some very congested tracks. Also, the train in front of mine was a put in running light to Times Square. The people on the platforms were not happy to see us go by.
Does anyone know what this sign means from the London Underground - it is now on sale in eBay....
I'm pretty sure that "busking" is panhandling, or putting on a performance for money, etc.
Here is a definition for 'busker' from the Merriam-Webster's site:
One entry found for busker.
Main Entry: busk¡¤er
Pronunciation: 'b&s-k&r
Function: noun
Etymology: busk, probably from Italian buscare to procure, gain, from Spanish buscar to look for
Date: 1857
chiefly British : a person who entertains especially by playing music on the street
- busk /'b&sk/ intransitive verb
Hope this helps and this is correct.
: )
It's correct. Not that I've ever seen the sign anywhere on LUL. It's one of those cheap replica signs. They don't really have signs like that.
AEM7
The do have signs saying that busking is prohibited and what the fine is for it.
-Robert King
No, but it's in various regualtions which are in fact enforced by asking the busker to move on if someone complains or more often not enforced at all.
That's right, I forgot they moved to a more reasonable policy akin to the one in use by the TTC. At the time I visited London, which was 1998, busking was still forbidden and there was a fine for it. 20 pounds, if I'm not mistaken?
-Robert King
Maybe it's the name of a station: North Busking. It's the stop after Tooting Bec.
Silly me. I thought it had something to do with rubber tyre royalty. :)
It's pretty easy to understand.
It just states that the buses there are republican, there is no bus king.
I believe that they are referring to playing a musical instrument (a guitar, for example) while singing to obtain coins and currency from passing patrons. In other words they don't want subway (or "underground", since this is in the UK) musicians "busking" for cash.
Exactly correct... but as if ANYONE minds (including LU staff). What gets on peoples nerves is the (usually foreign, always foreign accented) women wandering through trains bewailing their lives, often carrying a baby, demanding money.
Oh yeh, and I've never ever seen one of those signs.
Here's another common warning on NYCTA that most claim they've never seen either:
Heard about that sticker here before. Is it real??? Never installed one on Redbird carbody and R142s don't have the vertical poles. CI peter
Heh. BMDoobieW spotted it on an R40 ... apparently the air conditioning is turned up a bit too high on a few cars. Heh.
saw one on a 62 on the 3 about a week ago!
That would be an R-62_A_ on the #3.
To answer "OnTheJuice"'s question: no, those stickers aren't "real," or more precisely they aren't official. Someone who's good graphically has been putting them up all over the place.
DAvid
What about the ones that say "Karma Conditioned Car/Please watch what you're doing?"
Haven't SEEN that one. Would love to! :)
I'll bet they only run on shuttles though, that reincarnation thing. I'm sure C.I.Peter will want to get a BOX of those stickers for everyday use. Heh.
"My Karma ran over your dogma."
Ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Bad. Very bad. Rim shot? Maybe.
Thankyouverrry Much MOOOO!
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now CUT THAT OUT!
OK, give me some scissors.:)
Neener-neener
It's real. I've seen it. Had to think a moment to realize what it meant.
Somehow I'd picture it difficult to achieve without field shunting. :)
It would have been a piece of cake on the R-1/9s.
Ah for the days when you could cruise with the storm door open, rear lead car storm door locked, and the lights out. Happened every now and then when all the door panels on one side of the car had been valved out. Nothing like running with an entire dark lead motor all to yourself. :)
We can use some of those signs at the 8th Ave express plat at Penn. Station. That 'drum player' makes it impossible to hear service announcements - on top of which - HE REALLY STINKS!
More than half the time you can't even hear the service announcements because they have the speakers set too loud! All you hear is a mingle of "Rrrrr RR R R r rr rrrrr" and sometimes I make a few words out but if the "speakers" were set to a lower and a clearer volume (like the speakers on R142(A)'s), people will have a good sense of what the service diversion is without straining with the ear to make out the words.
I'll be coming east on vacation Sep 18th to Oct 2nd, and am planning on making the MOD excursion on Sunday th 22nd. Only problem is, the bus schedule is rather poor on sundays and the first bus from East Stroudsburg would get into the port authority only around 10:00 AM.
I had hopped to be at Church avenue by 9:30 or 10 at the latest.
Perhaps I'll look into hotel rooms, but I do not think that I'd find very much in a price range that would compare with those in North Dakota. Does anyone have any ideas? Maybe there is someone who would like to invide a strange houseguest for the night. : )
If so, send me an email!
Thanks, Elias
NTSB
>>http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2002/020822.htm<<
the segment in question had been slow ordered to 25mph, then the slow order was canceled in perhaps erroneous belief that the repairs were complete. If this is really the case score another blunder for CSX.
(Cannot Sustain eXcellence)
It looks like CSX management was not keeping score with regard to which maintenance jobs were done and which were not.
BTW, what does "track box anchored" mean?
A box anchored tie is a tie that has tie anchors on both sides, attaching it securely to the rail and preventing the rail from creeping in hot weather.
I have some pictures of track at work, might post them tomorrow.
Thank you for posting that.
Track, showing the box anchored ties, the non box-anchored ties, the spikes that have come loose and the rail anchors that have come loose. Nearest track, 2nd tie from the right is box-anchored. Most of the rest aren't. On the far track, every other tie is box-anchored.
Thank you for posting that. A good picture.
So in addition to the spikes holding the rail to the tie (which can come loose, there is an additional anchor applied from underneath.
How are these affected by tamping operations?
Tamping is the act of stabilizing ballast so that it anchors the ties properly. When you tamp, you can make small adjustments to the alignment of the railroad. On high speed track, tamping is frequently used to provide an opportunity to realign the track to a more sweeping curve. This is why you see on old Conrail main where the 2nd track had been torn out, the remaining track often sits in the middle of the ROW and weaves from side to side. This is because they were realigned during routine maintenance tamping.
Rail anchors aren't really affected by tamping. What happens when you tamp the track is that it takes a while for the ballast to settle (as in the loose material to fall back into position and edges on the rock to dig against each other or against the side of the wooden tie so that they hold the position) and this is often done by running service trains across the recently tamped patch at reduced speeds. Once the track is settled, you can increase the speed. If any rail anchors have become displaced (or tie spikes for that matter), then you should re-position those after tamping to their proper positions. If a hole in the tie has become unusable because it will no longer hold in the tie spike, you should either change the position of the tieplate, the tie spike, or replace the tie.
If the track isn't held in place by a firm, well-settled ballast, then the probability of the track becoming kinked in hot weather is increased.
Rail anchors are another way to fight the tendency to buckle. Instead of holding the tie in place, the rail anchors aims to hold the rails against the tie in the direction parallel to the train operation. It's the ballast's job to keep the ties in position, it's the rail anchor's job to keep the same part of the track attached to the same tie (to stop "creeping").
More information here.
AEM7
An excellent explanation and very good hyperlink. Thank you - I now have a clear idea of what tamping is.
I thank you.
Looks like a job for SuperHero Roger Toussaaint
A box anchored tie is a tie that has tie anchors on both sides, attaching it securely to the rail and preventing the rail from creeping in hot weather.
I have some pictures of track at work, might post them tomorrow.
I have just heard from CNN that an "unidentified object" is responsible for the derailment of an AMTRAK train in San Francisco that happened yesterday. 5 of the 13 railcars and 1 of the 3 engines went off the track but remained upright. Union Pacific owns the rails that AMTRAK derailed on, 7 passengers had minor injuries and this adds to the financial disability of AMTRAK.
Any more details?
What's new? :-D
Hope it's some of the equipment that California DOT paid for...
The last time I checked, Amtrak does not operate trains in San Francisco.
The Coast Starlight and California Zypher go to Oakland, which is outside of San Fransico. Say it was the Starlight - I was just on that train (northbound #11) last Thursday-Friday. Left Los Angeles about an hour late, arrived Seattle 4 hours late.
Extra-Extra Read all about it!!!
Oakland, CA - Amtrak transported passengers by bus from the derailed Coast Starlight, accompanied by a customer care team, to Sacramento early this morning. The northbound Coast Starlight, train #14, derailed at approximately 10:10 p.m. P.D.T. outside Hayward California, approximately 20 miles south of Oakland.
Initial reports indicate that four passengers with minor injuries were treated at the scene. Three passengers were transported to a local hospital, where two were treated and released. One passenger was admitted.
Amtrak is currently re-accommodating passengers on a continuation of the northbound Coast Starlight from Sacramento, as well as the San Joaquins and Capitols services to points south. In addition, some passengers will be bused to their destinations.
The train, which was traveling from Los Angeles to Seattle, was carrying approximately 287 passengers and 21 crewmembers at the time of the derailment. The train consisted of 3 engines and 12 passenger cars. Preliminary reports from the scene indicate that 5 cars and 1 engine derailed, all in an upright position.
Amtrak does operate Caltrain service from San Fransisco to San Jose & Gilroy, CA
Amtrak is only a contractor, just like the VRE and the MBTA. The press sees the name on the train and report as such. You will never read something like "American Airline 767, on a wet lease from General Electric Captial Corportation, .....", or "John Smith, operator of the car (leased from GMAC)....".
Still Amtrak does NOT serve the City and County of San Francisco. As a contractor it does, but on Caltrain and not on a national level from San Francisco.
<< Say it was the Starlight - I was just on that train (northbound #11) last Thursday-Friday. >>
I was thinking of taking that rain southbound in two months. How was the condition of the train and the attitude of the crew?
Starlight is one of the most wonderful trains on the system. It's worked out of the Seattle crewbase. Crews are friendly but very professional, which means if you're expecting off-the-menu service, Seattle is not the place to find it. Try New Orleans.
Northbound #14 (11 is the southbound train)
96th St./Broadway downtown platform - Wednesday's AM rush:
I was on a #1 train, carrying a pair of shoes in a plastic bag. I was going to take them to my favorite shoemaker, who is located near my office in Brooklyn.
We were in the station for a little while. As there was no #3, I stayed on the local train. However, the express suddenly appeared and I ran out to catch it.
In my haste I did not get a good grip on the bag. My shoes fell out, and one fell down to the track. (Fortunately, it happened too fast for anyone to notice and laugh at me.)
I had to get to work, so there was nothing I could do then. However, that evening, I thought I'd try my luck and returned to the platform, one shoe in hand.
There it was - in plain sight. I went to the token clerk and explained my problem. She made a phone call and said someone would come in half an hour to retrieve it. Exactly 1/2 hour later, an MTA employee handed me the shoe. It was a little warm of course, but did not even have a scratch! (It had been on its side, between the platform and the first rail.)
I am very thankful for the quick and friendly assistance I received. I plan to send the MTA a letter, which will essentially be a copy and paste of this.
You handled it well. Many customers would have jumped to the tracks rather than waiting for a track worker.
I must admit that (at least in my case) your observation is true. A few months back, I entered the Columbus Circle north bound #1 platform via the HEET-only entrance at B'way and (south side)CPS. The 1 train was in the station and I ran to catch it. While doing so, my cell phone fell from the front pocket of my shirt and onto the tracks. The train pulled out and the phone was in plain sight. I looked down track and upon seeing no approaching train (and figuring the signal would be red for a moment or so) hopped down and got it.
Looking back that was about as dumb a move as I could have pulled. The track is significantly curved at that point and I most likely would not have seen an approaching train.
In hindsight, I can't believe I did such a dopey thing for a cheap phone, but at the moment I was aggrevated at myself for being so careless - and what did I do? Something 100x more careless, not to mention stupid.
We all do stupid things at one time or another. The important thing is that you realize it was dumb and hopefully won't do it again
Looking back that was about as dumb a move as I could have pulled. The track is significantly curved at that point and I most likely would not have seen an approaching train.
What would you have done if you had seen an approaching train anyway? If you were down there, and you see an approaching train, then you're just about a 12-9...
I wouldn't know what I would have done. I'd never lost anything to the subway tracks *knock on wood* and I suspect I'd have done exactly what you did if it were anything important. I will try to remember not to!
AEM7
Is there space under the platforms on the subway? I know I've seen that LIRR, MN, and NJT high platforms are all built with a hollow area under them, usually home to wires, garbage and who knows what vermin. But I was wonder if the subway's platforms are built similarly, since that would provide instant shelter from the train (but who knows what you'd find down there). Or are the platforms solid underneath with no chance of escape?
Something like that happened to me at 47th Street. I took it as a natural loss, but what do you know, few days later someone from Sprint store on 42nd Street called me and said that sombody had brought my phone in.
Arti
So maybe we TA guys chase out baby carriages BUT we bring in the goods. Be sure to send the letter...the public doen't give a crap about the hard work...just late trains. Seems like a simple thing but the crew sent will really enjoy a hearty thankyou. CI peter
I suppose now they are now "platform" shoes :)
Simon
Swindon UK
hehehe
I have a pair of platforms, of the other variety.
Rim shot!
That's nice! It's a pity the efforts the MTA gives is lost most of the time.
Glad you got your shoe back.
I encourage you to write the letter. The employee did you a good turn, and will appreciate the positive feedback to the boss.
I saw this on the news last night and it made me post it.
A man gets on the 4:49 express LIRR from Penn Station-next stop is Huntington. The man has a heart attack on the train. Instead of the train stopping at Hicksville,Sysosset(where a ambulance station is 1 minute away from the stop) or Cold Spring harbour, the train continues to Huntington. The man dies because help did not get to him in time.
My problem exists with LIRR. If someone is dying, i would want to be let off at the next lirr stop-no matter if the train is express of local. I ride that line and get a bit nervous if something happens to me or any other of my fellow riders and lirr wont stop. Why didnt LIRR stop at Hicksville, Cold Spring Harbor or Sysosset? Why continue to Huntington(oh and by the way, LIRR personnal knew the man had a heart attack and continued the train rolling). Comments?
LIRR 'nuff said
You'd think someone there might have learned from a very unfortunate recent repeat of that exact scenario on the Boston T run by Amtrak. And not even long enough ago to have been forgotten yet.
Without additional details, impossible to offer an opinion.
I saw the thing on the news the other day and as a cop for 21 yrs I know how the news can slant one way or the other and create sensationalism. I'm going to go out on a limb and be devil's advocate and give the LIRR employees the benefit of the doubt. I think they honestly thought Huntington would be a better choice for EMS or a hospital. Unless they specifically knew there were paramedics on call 24 hours at the Syosset firehouse right by the station I could see how they didn't know. Although I hopefully as a conductor would have tried to stop at Hicksville, maybe they couldn't. Maybe they couldn't let the engineer in the locomotive know in time to be able to stop at Hicksville without overrunning the platform. (It was not an MU but a diesel) And personally, if I didn't know about the paramedics at Syosset I would've thought Huntington was a better choice than Syosset or C.S. Harbor.
Also the crew might not have known the seriousness of the case.
As far as the fact that the news speculated he would have lived if caught in time I would like to add that when someone goes into cardiac arrest he is usually deceased already and there is about a 1% chance of saving him.
The bottom line is I can't believe the crew had anything but best of intentions.
>>I would like to add that when someone goes into cardiac arrest he is usually deceased already and there is about a 1% chance of saving him.<<
That's very interesting. Twenty six years ago, my father died of a massive heart attack. The Hicksville Fire Dept. tried to revive him, but couldn't. The key word there is MASSIVE. The damage to his heart was so bad, that a team of doctors from NYU medical center couldn't save his life. Was that the case here ? Who knows.
Bill "Newkirk"
Eighteen years ago my mother went into the hospital (one which had a good cardiac unit) with chest pains, but in generally good condition and spirits. This was in the afternnon. The next morning, while monitored, she died of a massive heart attack.
She was in the perfect situation, one who would think, to have her life saved. The doctors said they did everything they could. The orderly in the ward descrived the situation for me. Some people would have gone straight to the inquiry and lawsuit, if only to ease their pain, but I have no reason to doubt I was told the truth.
We have come to believe that every life can be saved, if modern medicine is nearby, but it's not always so. Heart attacks are the end process of heart disease--they don't just come out of the blue. But sometimes it's hard to accept that.
Basically, the man started having the heart attack near the Hicksville Station. The train was a bi-level one and the crew knew what was going on. If i was on it, and we were at Mineola, i too, would have wanted to go there. The train kept going though. Let's hope the next time something like this happens, LIRR gets smart and stops at a closer stop. Someone's life could be at risk.
"The train kept going though. Let's hope the next time something like this happens, LIRR gets smart and stops at a closer stop. Someone's life could be at risk. "
Unless there are details you are leaving out, you still do not have enough information to make a judgment like that.
Speculation: If an EMS unit were close to and waiting at a station beyond Hicksville, the crew may have decided the shortest distance between where they were and a trained medical crew was that further station. It may or may not have been the appropriate choice.
Again, not enough details.
There really aren't enough details to make any kind of judgment here.
There are no hospitals in Hicksville. Stopping the train there would likely have meant sitting in the station and waiting for help. Then the patient would need to be transported to Plainview in an ambulance.
There is a hospital in Huntington. Running express from Hicksville to Huntington is probably 15 minutes. Enough time to have an ambulance meet the train on arrival and then have a short trip to a hospital.
We don't have any idea whether or not the train could even have stopped in Hicksville if they tried to. The train in question is one of the dual modes from Penn. Approaching Hicksville it's probably moving at 60+ MPH and hauling 8 or more bi-level cars and a trailing engine. It's not a 100 car freight, but it doesn't stop on a dime either. Plus, simply notifying the conductor doesn't mean that the engineer has been notified. Just the process of notifying the conductor, the conductor going to the vestibule and notifying the engineer could take a minute or two. At that speed the train is covering a mile a minute.
Was it the right decision or not -- we can't possibly know without more info. I don't see anything, though, that would indicate that it was a case of distorted priorities.
CG
There are no hospitals in Hicksville. Stopping the train there would likely have meant sitting in the station and waiting for help. Then the patient would need to be transported to Plainview in an ambulance.
There is a hospital in Huntington. Running express from Hicksville to Huntington is probably 15 minutes. Enough time to have an ambulance meet the train on arrival and then have a short trip to a hospital.
Good point. Part of the reason for all of the fuss surrounding the MBTA incident is the fact that there was a hospital close to the two bypassed Newton stops. That isn't true now.
There is also the issue of whether the crew meeting the train would be ALS-equipped or BLS equipped. Wherever possible, one tries to bring the drug box to the patient ASAP.
Ambulance service in Nassau County is a somewhat dicey proposition.
Nearly every town is served by a volunteer fire department / ambulance corp. There is no guarantee that there will be anyone at the station when the call comes in, usually the volunteers are at their job. On getting the call they head on over to the station and once they have a crew they roll. I believe only Long Beach and Garden City have any kind of paid full time fire/ambulance crews.
The Nassau County Police Department also has full time paramedics and ambulances, but not enough to cover the entire county. I don't know where they are stationed or how they are dispatched. Frequently both local and county ambulances will be summoned with whoever arrives first taking charge.
Your best bet in an emergency is to hope that either the local volunteers are at the station washing the ambulance or that a county police ambulance just happens to be in your neighborhood. Kinda scary for a county with 1.5 million people.
I agree. A controversial topic.
Professional EMS services cost $$$. In addition, while I do not want to unfairly criticize people who are dedicated and want to help others, I have personaly observed a few BLS squads who are run by, and staffed by, "heros" who see it as a means of practicing medicine without a license and driving around with the siren going. These squads will scream the loudest if the County (Suffolk has this problem too) decides to professionalize EMS, because all of a sudden, a real medical director with no particular stake in a given squad will show up and a few of the EMTs will find themselves no longer riding the ambulance.
I'm not going to dump on anyone at all. Quality of any service is dependent on the people who are hired or recruited, how well they are trained, and their sense of dedication.
My direct experience is that volunteer departments (fire and emergency) have very rapid response times, and this can be critical. How many paid and highly trained staff can we afford to cover large geographical areas?
That, I agree, is an open question. I brought it up to illuminate some of the politics involved...
There is a long tradition of volunteer fire departments in the northeast and (I think) part of the midwest going back literally centuries. Even today, these departments are an important step in community service, especially if one is interested in being involved in local politics.
New York City's original fire companies were all volunteer. Company No. 6 ("Big Six") which I believe suffered mightily in the WTC collapse, was William Marcy Tweed's original power base.
Yes, you are correct.
I too find it odd that counties the size of Nassau and Suffolk counties have volunteer fire and EMS companies. Comparably sized Palm Beach County in Florida, by contrast, have countywide paid departments.
New York isn't FLorida. Volunteer departments in New York and New England go back centuries, and they've worked pretty well.
Queens (and Brooklyn) has them too. They vary in performance. Some are decent, and some are the "drive around with the siren on" moron type. There are occasional conflicts with FDNY. In Queens, the volunteer squads are not hooked up to 911.
I think the volunteer units in Brooklyn and Queens are relatively recent (like '70s(?)) as a response to the horrible ambulance situation in the City before EMS. Hospitals and private services used to run the ambulances and you might drop dead while an ambulance took you to their patron hospital instead of the nearest one.
Or so I'd heard.
I've heard similarly - though hospital-based ambulances are still hooked up to 911 today (but better integrated).
Queens volleys are hooked up to 911, at least the Bayside Volleys were when I was in the 111 Pct.
Thanks. The Bayside squads were always handing out stickers with the direct phone numbers.
Thanks. The Bayside squads were always handing out stickers with the direct phone numbers.
That might be different.
When I worked at St. Francis on 31st Street, we posted the direct number to the Fire Dispatcher in big plastic numbers over the telephone switchboard, because it was quicker than using 911 and more reliable too. It was the number that the Fire Department encouraged building fire wardens to use rather than 911, but then these were building managers trained by the Fire Department, and not the public geese.
The only time I needed the firedepartment, I just walked across the street and knocked on their door.
Elias
Before a judgement is made there are several factors to consider. The biggest one is when did the crew and engineer learn of it and where was the train.
If it happened before Hicksville, it may not have been wise to stop there if the train could have. There are two Hospitals near the Hicksville Station------Central General (or whatever they are called today) on Old Country Road and the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expwy. Also close by is Syosset Hospital on Jericho Turnpike just east of the LIRR trestle next to K-mart.
What most people are picturing in their minds is that Hicksville is an ELEVATED Station while Syosset is ground level. This would come into play in terms of stabilizing the patient and getting him/her into the ambulance for transport. That has to be factored into the equation.
Best of all worlds would have been for the LIRR to have re-opened the old Landia station which is on Robbins Lane 1/2 way between Hicksville and Syosset. This was a ground level platform. The EMS could have met the train there and then it would be about a 5 minute run to Syosset.
[" There are two Hospitals near the Hicksville Station------Central General (or whatever they are called today)"]
It's now North Shore University Hosp. of Plainview. I know that because that's where my son was born.
Why couldn't they have stopped at Mineola? Winthrop University Hospital is right next to the station.
Why couldn't they have stopped at Mineola? Winthrop University Hospital is right next to the station.
I suppose it would depend on when the train crew found out about the emergency. It can take some time for passengers to alert the crew because LIRR cars (except the bilevels) don't have intercoms.
This happened Thursday night? I can't find this on news12.com, newsday.com, or nytimes.com.
No, it was a couple of days before. It was on the news Wednesday.
I can't find it in the site archives either.
I would think it would be big news.
It's not 'impacting' enough by the thoughts of the media. 9/11 on the other hand...
I wish someone could point me to a story about this. At least two SubTalkers heard this. Did the radio station reporta story by mistake?
I see more minor stories being reported about the LIRR. A fatal grade crosssing accident on Wednesday. Delays last week caused by the storm. A human interest plus LIRR screws up story would not be ignored.
i heard it from a J T/o while i was at the foamerview
It was definitely on the TV News. I wasn't really watching, my wife was, I was at the 'puter but I heard it in the background. Why it isn't all over the news? Maybe because having a heart attack on a train isn't really news. The stations that showed it probably wanted to sensationalize the story by concentrating on the fact it they stations.
Unless this was a very tragic coincidence involving two very similar occurrences, I believe the incident actually took place in massachusettes on one of the suburban lines. That conductor was suspended for continuing to make local stops instead of getting the train to where the stricken customer could be helped. I asked my LIRR Conductor-friend about a similar event on the Port Jeff line but he knew of no such happening.
Unless this was a very tragic coincidence involving two very similar occurrences, I believe the incident actually took place in massachusettes on one of the suburban lines. That conductor was suspended for continuing to make local stops instead of getting the train to where the stricken customer could be helped. I asked my LIRR Conductor-friend about a similar event on the Port Jeff line but he knew of no such happening.
Addendum:
I'm told that the official LIRR policy is to get the train to the nearest, most immediate evacuation point. There the sick customer is removed from the train whether it's a scheduled stop or not. If help is not immediately on the scene, a crew member must leave the train and wait until help arrives.
A good responsible policy. Bravo.
It definitely happened on the LIRR unless the whole news article on 2 stations were false. They made a big deal about the firehouse being next to the Syosset Station and interviewed people on the same train the following day who witnessed it. One lady said they made an announcement in Huntington that they were to be delayed for a sick passenger.
ABC said it happened in april!!!!!
why did the report come out now?????
weird
Because after much pestering, someone finally was able to get a news station interested in the story.
Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I'm sorry to hear that it's true. I'm also suprised that my friend knew nothing about the incident. Had this happened on the NYCT, every employee would likely have received a letter explaining the current policy.
Check out http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/WABC_investigators_082102lirrdeath.html
Unless this was a very tragic coincidence involving two very similar occurrences, I believe the incident actually took place in massachusettes on one of the suburban lines.
According to the news story someone posted earlier, having heart attack onboard commuter trains is actually a common occurence. I am not surprised, given the rate of heart attack and the number of people who travel on commuter trains.
About the Massachusetts case, I have some insider information. So I was told, the conductor who insisted that the train made all its station stops and got medical help at Back Bay was an old-school B&A man who was very set in his ways. In the B&A days, what he'd done would not have been inappropriate. Today, it is more questionable, but my view is that he believed that he was doing what was the best for the passenger without realizing the seriousness of the situation. In an emergency, he took charge and demonstrated effective leadership. None of that dithering around trying to figure out who should call the shots. I would not be surprised if he knew from experience that stopping at West Newton and Newtonville would only add some five mins onto the schedule, and he obviously did not think the five minutes would gravely endanger the passenger. It remains true that the quickest way that passenger could have gotten medical attention was for the train to proceed express to Back Bay.
AEM7
Oh, and I also meant to say, I hate those media types who are forever looking for a consipracy theory. Look at the tone of that "special investigative report". It was clearly designed to cause unnecessary controversy for the LIRR. The damn thing is, people believe that kind of crap.
Smarten up, people.
A French guy was publishing a book that alleged that Bush knew about 9-11 in advance. There was a rumour circulating in historical circles that Roooosvelt knew about Pearl Harbour before it happened. All those bullshit stories belong in the same place -- the trash.
AEM7
There was a rumour circulating in historical circles that Roooosvelt knew about Pearl Harbour before it happened.
Not rumor - fact. What Roosevelt and his advisors failed to understand was the capability of the Japanese to inflict nearly the amount of damage that they did. Had they understood that our alert level would have been much higher and we would have been better prepared for the enemy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What Roosevelt and his advisors failed to understand was the capability of the Japanese to inflict nearly the amount of damage that they did
...alright, then someone need to explain to me just why the U.S. Navy stationed there were caught in their sleep? If there were any kind of alert at all, you'd not think they would have been sleeping...
Or do I have my American history backwards? I am not very informed in this subject (a priori admission, so people don't start calling me a fool).
AEM7
I think Roosevelt and co knew something was about to happen. They didn't expect it to happen at Pearl Harbor. They were expecting a strike around Manila or Hong Kong or somewhere closer to Japan. Supposively warnings were sent to Pearl that morning. But the message went via regular cable and arrived shortly after the bombing started. It is said someone working the new radar system noticed a fleet of airplanes approaching. But his Superior officer thought it was a fleet of US planes coming in from the mainland due the same time.
We were caught napping. We also had our warnings and either they were ignored or they weren't taken too seriously. I think it would be worth it to read about it in history books that can discuss it in detail of talking about it in here.
That's correct, as far as it goes... we did know that something was going to happen that morning (and had had clear indications regarding the date for almost a week) but we didn't have an accurate view of the capability of the Japanese military and therefore made a number of incorrect assumptions, one of which was an erroneous assessment of the range of Japanese aircraft, and another of which was our belief that the Japanese would not commit a large amount of forces to an initial attack on us. Roosevelt wanted to get into the war but politically he needed to wait for an attack on US forces; had the Japanese plan been properly understood, the United States would have been better prepared and much of the immediate loss of life and materièl would have been averted. A number of naval historians contend, however, that without the loss of the battleships at Pearl Harbor we would have been much less able to fight some of the later battles of the war, since the ships that were built to replace them were far more capable vessels than those we lost.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Correct. The battleships went to the bottom, but the USS Enterprise and one other (forgot which) were elsewhere, out of harm's way.
We turned to the carrier as our main weapon, got lucky at the Battle of Midway, and from then on the Japanese began their inevitable decline.
Imeant to specify that the Enterprise was a carrier.
In 1960, the world's first nuclear powered warship, the USS Enterprise, was launched, in honor of the first Enterprise, and still serves the fleet today.
Sorry, made another error.
Enterprise (CVN-65) was the first nuclear powered carrier, and was accompanied by the first nuclear powered surface combatants (the destroyer Bainbridge, DDGN-25, and the cruiser Long Beach (CGN-9). While the Enterprise cruises on, the latter two went to the scrapyard some years back.
Remember Henderson airfield??? Enterprise, finest in the fleet from the United Federation of Planets. Kursk, launched torpedoes with sea doors colsed. K19 the undertaker. Redbirds. CI Peter
There is some evidence that a fuel spill from the torpedoes or a cruise missile sparked a detonation, and then another...the crew never had a chance.
I think Roosevelt and co knew something was about to happen. They didn't expect it to happen at Pearl Harbor.
Like the way one year ago, the government knew that terrorist attacks were a possibility but never imagined that they'd happen inside the United States.
Billy Mitchell was branded an ass in the thirties for speaking up to Japanese military brass in Washington and was punished by demotement in rank. There were a few who understood the expansion of the Japanese 'Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere.' History repeated itself sixty years later: knowledge base was ignored upon the destruction of the WTC complex as the pearl Harbor facilities were. Heavy cruisers and battleships sunk at moorings...the most agile of the fleet left were aircraft carriers deemed for support of surface vessels. Modern aircraft technology prooved out long range ocean running missions...Hawaii was the 'stepping stone' to mainland US and Japan prooved three points: they could stand up to US denial of fuel sources, they could travel to and deliver heavy destruction to US military bases a long distance away AND they were prepared to strike at the Western US coast. The big mistakes: they missed the carriers which proved out superiority over conventional naval forces, they did not wait until the US forces were heavily engaged in Europe and they had no understanding of how we could unite our skills and industrial machine TO MAKE WAR GO!!! 'The sleeping giant awoke!' CI Peter
>>> someone need to explain to me just why the U.S. Navy stationed there were caught in their sleep? If there were any kind of alert at all, you'd not think they would have been sleeping... <<<
It comes from the military mind set which is always fighting the last war. The Navy expected any attack to be by battleships steaming over the horizon and firing salvos from their big guns. They looked at naval aircraft to be nothing more than the long range eyes of the fleet used to locate the enemy. One of the reasons the aircraft carriers were not in Pearl Harbor was that they were at sea with their aircraft searching the western approaches to Hawaii (the attack came from the north) looking for a Japanese battle fleet. It was assumed that once a fleet was detected there would be time to steam out of Pearl Harbor with the rest of the U.S. fleet and meet them for another naval battle such as the battle of Jutland.
Radar contact was made with the incoming Japanese planes, but radar was in its infancy and had many glitches, so when the operators reported the sighting it was brushed off by the duty officer as probably a malfunction, since no large formation of planes was expected from the north.
The Army and Navy commanders in Hawaii had been receiving communiques from Washington for almost two weeks that hostilities with Japan were imminent. They had gone to the highest alert status several times and nothing happened. The Army commander had ordered all the aircraft be bunched together in the center of the airfields because he was concerned about sabotage, and this made the planes easier to defend than in dispersed sand bagged revetments around the edge of the airfields. This made it perfect for the attacking planes to destroy large numbers of American planes on the ground.
In summary, the attack was so successful because the senior American commanders in Hawaii did not conceive of such an attack being possible. The senior Army and Navy commanders were both relieved of command and court martialed. There was an immediate revision of thinking in the Naval hierarchy about the value of aircraft carriers as major capital ships, based on their effectiveness in the Pearl Harbor attack, and necessity since they were all we had left.
Tom
I smell lawsuit!
Coming back from Carrol Gardens I was transfering from the 'G' to the 'A'. I hear the buzzer for the next approaching train and next thing I see is a black and silver thing coming down the tracks. A R-143 heading to somewhere in Queens, I think it was # 821? thats all I really saw. And DAMN does that thing move!! Any Idea why it was heading to Queens along the 'A'??
most likely for testing on the test track between Broad Channel and Howard Beach
Good thing you mean Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A/C/G and not Hoyt on the 1/2. I got worried for a minute.
Good thing you mean Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A/C/G and not Hoyt on the 1/2. I got worried for a minute.
Yeah, would THAT ever hoyt! :)
TESTING
I don't know if this is true but does the T/A remove all R143's on the L during the weekends? I passed about 15 trains (more or less) on my way from 14th- 8 Av. to Broadway ENY and none of them were an R143. And on the yard right beside it I spotted 4 of them.
How many R143's are there on the site and when are they in use?
I've seen a set of 143's in service on the weekends.
When service is split at Broadway Junction (i.e., most weekends), it seems that the R-143's tend not to come out. I don't think they can be signed for a terminal of Broadway Junction.
Rather interesting if I may say!
An electric locomotive (running solo) lead the way for protection purposes - followed by a blind 6397-98-99-6400, being pushed by 6521-25. Sorry Grounded Shoe Beam, but 6398 was not leading for the occasion. 6397-6400 were still lit, and signs were still displaying 5 to Bowling Green.
6736-40 came later with a dark 6396. A second electric locomotive came behind this train.
I hope this will be the last time we hear about pull aparts!
-Stef
I think I finally have the technical issue resolved. AOL tech told me to reset IE setting and purge the cookies. Now the page loads and quickly.
My IE needed to go on a diet. :-0
I'm glad the AOL Tech was able to help you. I also hope you weren't on hold for a long time. Your $23.xx a month should get you something.
Did any subtalkers catch the town hall meeting on NY1 Thursday night, which was also aired nationally by C-Span? They aired one of the hearings about what to do with lower Manhattan, and transportation issues came up.
It started when someone suggested the LIRR be brought to lower Manhattan, which was immediately responded with "take the projects of higher priority", meaning that particular project may not be in the top.
Another person then asked about how feasible it would be to have the LIRR go to lower Manhattan, and if that money would be better used for a 2nd Avenue Subway. Manhattan Borough President C. Virginia Fields responded to this question, and she was happy that someone brought this up. She went on to say that all studies revolving economic growth and transit related to the building of the 2nd Avenue Subway, and therefore, if she had to choose between these two projects, the 2nd Avenue Subway would win her vote right away.
I'm not trying to make LIRR fans unhappy, I don't know the feasibility of bringing the LIRR to downtown, so I really have nothing to comment about that. However, as a strong supporter of the 2nd Avenue Subway, I was thrilled to hear Ms. Fields Speak about it in such a positive manner. -Nick
I took an R62A train to Flushing yesterday and I swear I saw the conductor in the full-width! Is this amazing or old news?
I don't know about the cab widths, but taking a quickie peak at the
sevens yesterday afternoon, my observation was, silvabirds running
as a trains of ten singles or two pairs of fives. Lotta silver on
the seven, in my short wait for the Mrs. at Court House Square.
Brief observations, but did not see any sets of five + five singles.
;-) Sparky
Yeah, those God-awful R-62A's just seem to keep multiplying! No more railfan window :o( I wish those R-62's would just go back to the "1" and "2" where they belong. Bring back our Redbirds!!!
Since the R-62As are all air conditioned, I'm surprised they're not running 11-car trains of them on the 7 now.
The 7 is running in its summer configuration. These means the 62A's are limited to 10 cars for saftey reasons.
You don't want a T/O taking redbird and stopping at the 10 car marker one trip, then have a R62A on his next trip and forget and stop at the 10 car marker and the C/R opening up with cars not platformed.
I am not saying the C/R is inatentive at being on the wrong board but it is just another failsafe in the over saftey way of the current TA.
I've seen the T/O in the full width, and that was a couple of months ago, when 11 car trains were in service, with 6 singles and a set of five. While I did not check to see if the conductor was also in the full width at the other end of the set, it seems to me that with 6 singles and a full width set of five the conductor's position would end up in that full width in one direction, and between two singles in the other direction. With the 10 car trains now running, if the train has a set of five, I'd think the conductor would be in the full width in both directions. Comments and corrections welcomed.
By the way, in all my years riding the 7, I've never taken note of exactly where the conductor's position is on an 11 car train. Is it between cars 5 & 6, or between cars 6 & 7?
I think 6 & 7.
Story:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/sns-ap-train-derailment0823aug23.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dtop%2Dutility
What a bunch of dyckwods at Newsday. Anybody get a load of that ridiculous headline? Like it was Amtrak's fault once again?
(quote)
Report: Amtrak Train Was Speeding
By STEPHEN MANNING (/quote)
Yeah, pull it over, give it a ticket, see you in court, officer neckvein. Sheesh.
Sorry, Kirk, it really is CSX's fault. A CSX track supervisor failed to keep a 25 MPH speed limit in the affected section. It was being relined & tamped when the tamper broke down and hand (with hydraulic tampers) tamped. In error, the supervisor though the crew had fully finshed when they hadn't. He lifted the speed limit without even talking to the track crew.
Oh, I *know* it was CSX's fault. You should see what's become of Conrail's LOVELY track even around here under their (ahem) "maintenance" ... I was objecting to the headline, "Amtrak train WAS speeding" as though somehow Amtrak was violating the law or something. The train was operating UNDER the MAS for that section of track as permitted by the boobs in Jacksonville ... wasn't speeding at all.
I've heard that CSX had more efficient track gangs than Conrail. I agree that Conrail ran a good railroad, but CSX, at least on some divisions, doesn't deserve all the bad press that it gets. For instance, in the Willard subdivision, they paid for a railfan booth by one of their diamonds.
What can I say? Along MY stretch of the Chicago line, you could look up or down the tracks and they'd be straight enough to run a rocket sled on. Now, they're quite ... well ... "kinky" ... granted, not quite Maryland style kinky, but they're not as flat as they used to be and trains don't run as fast on them as they used to and it was a nice 70 degree day today. What runs along here has a while to go before it gets as bad as what I've seen down SOUTH, but they're getting there.
And just in the %#@%$ does a foamer booth have to do with having a decent M/W program. Snow couldn't hold a candle to Stan Crane or David Le Van.
CSX has a decent MoW programme in some places. I've only heard good things about the Conrail Boston Line. There are much less slow orders now than there were when Conrail was around.
AEM7
Yeah, but they're still putting plenty on the ground in western Mass. Some things never change. :)
I'll be impressed if they ever get around to slapping some primer at least on the bridge across the Hudson though. That bridge ain't gonna be there that much longer if they don't.
Don't blame the author of the article.
The headline was probably written by someone else. Too bad he didn't read the article.
The "author" was an Associated Press reporter (AP's credibility is somewhere between Fox and CNN, but that's not the issue) ... while AP does provide a headline title of their own for AP slugs, it's up to the NEWSPAPER to use it or substitute it. That's why I took a swat at NewsDay. Either THEIR editorial staff created the headline, or perhaps it originated from AP. Regardless, it's an INACCURATE headline and editors have been slapped around for less than that. Don't mind me, used to do that kind of stuff for a living. The train was NOT speeding. :)
Any information is greatly appreciated.
Here we go again.
Peace,
ANDEE
oh yes... all of them. R32,40,42,and 44,they will replace them at JAmaica. ENY WILL GET R46'S NOW,because Queens dont want them anymore.So get your camras out now because...HERE THEY COME!!!!.....ALSO LOOK FOR THEM ON THE A/C/N and Q[both of ''em]heh...
also the R16s will return to service on the brighton lcl with CBTC
LOL....
ROTHFLMFAO
Peace,
ANDEE
here we go again is right.when in the blue hell is he gonna cut the crap,i ve had it already.add the fact that i have not once seen him reply to his own dumb statement
true... i dont think that he looks at the responses
i think he does it just to a response,or to see his name ''UP IN LIGHTS''.LIMPBISCIT.....
i think he does it just to a response,or to see his name ''UP IN LIGHTS''.LIMPBISCIT.....
ANSWERS HERE
Peace,
ANDEE
Oi gevalt.
Yes. They will operate on the Culver Shuttle.
You mean they're bringing back R16's to the Culver Shuttle? - WOOHOO!!!
and on the (Q)
That's great :o) It'll be like 1955 all over again. Are you sure they don't mean R-46's?
no definitely R16s(they will run on the lex ave and myrtle Els)
Only once, though. The shear weight of those beasts will pulverize the el structures and turn them into defacto trollies.
Never mind "Everybody out and push". It would be more like:
Timmmmmmm-berrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!
It's part of the Department of Subways reorganization. There will now be A, B, and Nostalgia divisions. The Nostalgia division will run fan trips for railfans to increase subway revenue.
And they'll be painted olive drab and have straight door pockets.
This is the like the greatest thing :o), but how many R-16's are still in existance?
I know of 5:
6305, 6339 @ CIY
6387 is in the museum
6398 is being restored at the TMNY
6452 is in front of PS 248 in Brooklyn, which is a training facility
All but 6452 are said to be operable.
Yes, but there's a whole 10 car train of R-16's in green behind the wall at 76th Street.
there are 3 of them!!!!!
Not only that, but our president has ordered the forests cut down to make a whole new fleet of gate cars to bring back AMERICAN MADE railcars. The MTA has finally seen the light of the railfan window and a memo should be issued any day now allowing wooden cars back into the subways. Yay! :)
I'll turn in my retirement papers to be the first mototman to operate a brand new "Q" or "BU" train.
We're already up to job number 209 on this end. :)
I'll take an early 300 job. I don't like hitting the gin mills too late.
Hahahahaha ... we'll put ya on the board. Bring lanterns. :)
Sounds good to me. I was also a qualified hand switchman before becoming a motorman. I'm ready for anything!!
You're going to have to be. Just checked the specs. Looks like they're going to finally solve that "backwards control" issue so that the rebuilds will be a bit more standard and compatible with SMEE. The downside though is our buddy HeyPaul got the contract and as such, all of them will be equipped with Otis elevator actuators. They're not all that hard to get used to though but school car's gonna be a beast.
In addition to carrying an electric brake plug though, we'll also have to carry a set of jumpers and our own bells to ring through the gates in a five car consist. No OPTO though at least. And S/S RDO's for everybody! Woohoo!
The Otis elevator actuators will be great; just like the controller on the "Q" and "BU" cars. I can't wait to ring the bells (and blow the whistle too)!!
Our buddy HeyPaul believes in doing things right. Only downside is the whistle is made of wood. But it's a four-warbler, so it's OK. :)
I'm hoping my pick for the Franklin/Brighton comes through. Second pick was Culver Taxi ... we'll see what shakes ...
I'll take the Myrtle Shuttle (what is left of old Myrt)
OH ... thought you knew ... that's part of the rehab as well. All wood of course, but stronger than the original. So that'll be #317, interval 0817, report Navy Street. Congratulations! :)
Nah, you're ALL wrong. I have it on GOOD authority that LO-Vs are coming back to the Franklin Shuttle.
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, there was a last minute change in those plans. Forgot you were at the meeting and left early. No, Joe Frank's taking those home and in exchange, the Franklin's going to get some Almond Joys from Philly since they're the only nostalgic cars that HAVEN'T run on the Frankie. But that'll only be temporary until the Chrysler 300's have had their regenerative propulsion systems fitted and the flywheels installed at Dougie's house. Should keep him cool all winter. :)
I'm terribly sorry I've been watching entirlytoo much "Make It So" and oil commercials
Peace,
ANDEE
Also the BMT Green Hornet has been located in an obscure bunker in Area 51. The Feds are returning it to NYC Transit on Oct 1.. It will be refurbished and placed into service on the Franklin too...
Only IF I allow them entry...;-) (the T/O has to use the secret password).
Tell 'em Lefty sent ya ;-)
I hear the conductors will all yell "Neener-neener!" instead of ringing a bell when their cars is closed up and ready to go.:)
Actually, I've seen the contract. The TA is planning on issuing DUCK CALLS. Qvack. :)
I'd like to see them use nightingale whistles. Those are the ones you put water in to get that fluttering sound. I had to buy one of those last spring when our orchestra did Haydn's Toy Symphony.
If you're willing to tune into the "Save New York Telethon" on November 6th, we'll be HAPPY to play the whole damned song for fifty bucks. :)
I hope the owners of the new houses built on the old ROW are aware of these R16's that will be shortly rumbling through their living room.
Hmmmm, R16 W trains signed up as TT's.....scary thought.
Really?????????????/
yup, after years of long term storage in naporano, the R16s will get new electric, and the trucks from the redbirds will be put under them, Expect to see them on the (Q), and (F)
Actually, they were storing them in the 76th Street station.
nah... thats where the MS units are
Will it be the Q Express or Local?
local, the 10s will run express
It's going to look something like:
R-16s on the circle Q
Slant R-40s on the diamond Q
R10s on the Q express
Although I have seen and ridden on R-10s on the D, there is only one route they rightfully belong on: the A.
With R16's, it'll be local, no matter what track those beasts waddle on.
Be nice............
I'm always nice, Edith.
How about this?
R-16s on the circle Q
R-68s on the circle Q
LOL
I would think there are more than 5 in operational status, no? Aren't there any used as work trains (which we are unaware of) that could be converted back to passenger trains?
Click here to see a list of all remaining R16's. There are 5, with 4 reported in operable condition. There are no current R16's in any kind of work service.
So if there that few cars in existence, why did they decide upon R-16's? I would have thought a consist of R1/9's would have been a better choice....
Ummm ... follow the thread back to where it split off from the "R46" mainline and diverged into a bricked up bellmouth. The WHOLE thing was a GAG ...
You know, that's just mean-spiritness masked as humor if this is the case. This is as bas as the A$$hole who posted the bogus story of the crash and fire on the F train several weeks ago. I fail to see the humor in this...
The original thread was about R46's travelling over yonder. But when one person somehow changed it to R16's, it was pretty much fair game and a LOT of people (including some VERY serious people) had some real fun with it. After all, Naporano, the alleged storage shed for it (Naporano is a railcar TORCHER) was pretty well known, there were many mentions of things such as the 76 St station as storage and the cars being assigned to elevated lines that were torn down 30+ years ago as well as a bunch of other well known off the wall, outlandish clues throughout. If we can't have a little fun, I don't see the point of living.
Don't forget Sarnelli scrappers at CI Yard in the '70s.
Yep ... broke my heart seeing Arnines cut in HALF ... dunno WHY they had to do that ... and ON the property too. (sheds tear)
Are you kidding me?
you forget about at least 100 R16s in naporano
25 6400s,
75 6300s
i forget where the R1,4,6,7,9s are stored
i forget where the R1,4,6,7,9s are stored
The NYER's 155th St yard.
No R46 MU's are going to Coney.
However, there may be some mothballed D Types starting service on the West End on 9/8.
EWWWWW!!!!! HEEEERRRRREEEEE trolly trolly Trolly. That's a good TROLL!!!!! Busfan has invaded SubTalk!!!!!!!!!!
No, they're all being reassigned to ENY with all the R143's re-assigned to line 7.
NO!!!! the R143s will be sunk(for long term storage)the 27/30s will be at corona, and the Flivvers will make a comeback in ENY!!!!!
Any information is greatly appreciated.
Yes, the East River going to torn down starting Serptember 8th.
This past Sunday I was riding the F from Roosevelt Av. to 34th St. Riding the first car #5912, I noticed that through the black material that covers the motorman's door, there is a decent-sized square cut out from it which enables you to look in front of the train. At my best estimate it is about 5 times larger than the teeny window found on R62(A)'s. I didn't look through it but is the view clear and is the railfan window OK?
I was on an F, which I was taking through 63rd st for the first time past Lex on a pure railfan ride, that had a clear window. I could pretty much see everything. At 21st St there was a problem up ahead and they had everybody get off and they sent this train back to Manhattan. I lost my clear window, but had a chance to look at the station. The next F coming through proceeded to Roosevelt, but the window had that annoying diffraction stuff on it. I guess it gives the operator some privacy.
Its funny how those 63rd st stations don't feel like the NYC subway. They don't have 80-90 years of dirt ground in.
Yeah, but that 80-90 years of dirt gives it its New York Flavor! One of my favorite stations is Hunterspoint Ave. on the IRT "7". Originally finished in 1916, it has been left unchanged since (with the exception of the flourescent lights). My hope is that someday the City Hall IRT station is opened. I'm sure it lives up to it's reputation of being one of the most beautiful stations in the world. How I'd love to see a consist of Low-V's rattle through that station again!
The next F coming through proceeded to Roosevelt, but the window had that annoying diffraction stuff on it. I guess it gives the operator some privacy.
This happened on the 1 from 242nd St. to 34th St. The motorman hung his big bag on a hook on the door that completely blocked the little railfan window. I didn't see anything!
He seemed kind of cranky also. It was around the late evening.
In almost all cases, the view is fuzzy. That goes for the R-68(A), R-142(A), and R-143 as well.
I've been on some R-46s where the "hole in the black curtain" was nice and clear.....and then I've been on some where the T/O had covered it up with newspaper! Makes me wonder what some T/Os are afraid we'll see.
Some T/O's cover the window with the first piece of paper they find -- often a service change announcement posted in the car!
Probably "speedometer reports on subtalk" ... if I had a train rolling wide open and then had my interval time reported along with the specious numbers off that little LED thingy on the post, I'd expect to be invited for a fireside chat downtown. Cover the foamer glass, problem solved. :)
nope !!..............no go !
Here is what the message says when you try to see the homepage:
August 22, 2002 11:54 PM
Railroad.net is currently experiencing some unexpected technical difficulties. We sincerely appologize for the inconvienience. We are actively working on the problem right now.
-The Railroad.net Crew
Anyone else know about this?
I get the message too. I'll wait it out.
The previous message has been superseded by:
August 24, 2002 7:37 PM
We are still having a bit of trouble with our database server. We hope to have this resolved before Monday. Please understand that we're working as fast as we can.
Thanks for your patience. We will be launching many new features that you have requested as soon as we get back online!
- The Railroad.net Crew
...maybe if they didn't reply on buggy gatesware the site would stay up. .asp=garbage.
As John Rhys-Davies, who played "Sallah" in Indiana Jones said to Harrison Ford, "Asps. Very dangerous. You go first." :)
I am out of the loop, but was the tunnel between Queens Plaza and 36 Street actually widened and realigned to accomodate the 2 extra submerging tracks leading to the 63 Street connector??? Tony
Yes, 1 trackway. Had room for 5 already at that spot.
Thank you for that clarification. That would have made project planning a bit easier.
they built a new "local" track to the geographic North of the Manhattan bound "Local Track". Trains for 53 or 60 street or the G switch to the new local track. 63 trains "dive' between the local and express track. AFter leavign Queens Plaza the G turns off first followed by the 60 street train.
nope.60th street trains diverge first,and Crosstown trains travel south toward Court Sq.
That old center track was a layup and now used as the NB express.
Yes it was. A portion of it is now 6 tracks wide, which includes the new ramps coming off 41 Av and then merging into the QB local and express tracks.
I was always curious as to the ridership figures of the Jamaica El between Parsons and Bway Myrtle. Does anybody have #'s by station. It always seemed to me that the heaviest used stations were Parsons, Woodhaven and Bway E-NY. Other stations like Crescent St only SEEMED heavily used because everyone crowded in and out of 1 exit!!!! Tony
For 2001 (annual ridership):
Jamaica Center: (complex)
Sutphin Boulevard: (complex)
121st Street: 547,283
111th Street: 681,993
104th Street: 701,132
Woodhaven Boulevard: 959,802
85th Street-Forest Parkway: 986,167
75th Street: 936,366
Cypress Hills: 384,611
Crescent Street: 1,242,289
Norwood Avenue: 872,507
Cleveland Street: 835,133
Van Siclen Avenue: 665,636
Alabama Avenue: 621,905
Broadway Junction: (complex)
Chauncey Street: 472,913
Halsey Street: 1,090,096
Gates Avenue: 889,505
Kosckiusko Street: 766,967
Myrtle Avenue: 1,717,802
(might as well finish it...)
Flushing Avenue: 1,500,323
Lorimer Street: 606,643
Hewes Street: 473,727
Marcy Avenue: 1,967,312
David
Do you have figures for the G??
Yes, but if I post everything my fingers will fall off.
I'm going to suggest again what I've suggested before. Anyone who wants annual ridership figures should write to NYCT and request them. I won't guarantee that NYCT will send them, but they ARE available in book form.
David
Does anyone know of a way to obtain a current annual report from the MTA? I am going to write to NYCT about that book like you suggested. Is there any other info I might be able to get from them?
Thanks,
David
The annual report is available from the MTA...2001 just came out.
347 Madison Avenue
New York NY 10017
David
I have the 2000 figures. I'm not going to post them all, but I'll give you the extremes. The busiest G-only station was Greenpoint Avenue, ranked 163 systemwide (out of 424), with 2,367,566 entries. The least busy was 21st-Van Alst, ranked 415, with 255,531 entries.
There are stations less busy than Van Alst?
From busiest to least busy, starting below 21st-Van Alst: Bowery, Atlantic (L), E. 143rd (St. Mary's), B36, B98, B44, Broad Channel, B105, Aqueduct Racetrack. (These are based on 2000 counts.)
I've entered or exited at six of the ten least used stations.
Yes should have known. Bowery and the two far rock stations were a bit of a surprise.
There are stations less busy than Van Alst?
Might those numbers be a bit off due to all the station renovations?
Thank you David for the info. I wonder why Forest Parkway instead of
Elderts Lane wasn't designated an all-stop station being that it seemed to be one of the heaviest used on the Jamaica Av section. I was especially shocked that Halsey St had over 1 million passengers. I guess there are more bus transfers there??? I was really shocked at the high numbers of some of those stations!!!! I bet it's nothing compared to the ridership in the 1950's and '60's. Back then, 168 St probably had the highest patronage??? Tony
I am also amazed at Halsey, Gates, and Kosciuscko. I would have thought that they would have been the least used, considering that the neighborhood is fairly run down and abandoned over there. Well, in the last few years, it really has vastly improved along the Broadway el, so I guess those ridership figures reflect that. Good for Bushwick and Bed-Stuy. Hopefully there is a light at the end of the tunnel for those neighborhoods.
I'm also a bit surprised that Crescent and Alabama are as high as they are.
I am not surprised at Crescent St's #'s because there are shops along the street and I think a bus connection. But Alabama Ave shocked me too!!!!! It looked to me as if it existed for passengers going to the train yard or cemetery!!!!!!!!!!!! Tony
Alabama is a large transfer point to/from several bus routes.
Bushwick/bed sty was home for me,for many years[until I moved to washington DC].I was there when the Blackout of 77' caused people to lose there damn minds...Broadway was hit really hard and never truely bounced back from it... the old hood I lived in doesnt look the same any more....the house I used to live in[yes house,not appartment]is now a playground.The stores are making a comback big time,though... but it's not the same...
it is the ONLY line around there,unless you want walk to the fulton st subway...so of course its going to be used....Halsey street has 2 feeder bues lines[B20/B7],Gates avenue [B52/40]Koskiousko st[B38/Q24 and down the street,the B46]... SO alot of folks just catch the bus to the train [now easier with Metrocard]
EbwayTony1, here are the figures from 1959:
168th Street: 2,664,015
160th Street: 894,017
Sutphin Boulevard (LIRR): 1,141,504
Queens Boulevard: 257,426
Metropolitan Avenue: 368,571
121st Street: 520,605
111th Street: 573,764
102nd Street (now 104th Street): 546,846
Woodhaven Boulevard: 920,173
85th Street-Forest Parkway: 858,280
Elderts Lane (75th Street): 506,278
Cypress Hills: 285,457
Crescent Street: 838,549
Norwood Avenue: 658,295
Cleveland Street: 642,411
Van Siclen Avenue: 592,247
Alabama Avenue: 288,231
Broadway Junction: (complex)
Chauncey Street: 959,945
Halsey Street: 1,635,108
Gates Avenue: 1,910,169
Kosckiusko Street: 1,243,413
Myrtle Avenue: 1,871,067
Flushing Avenue: 1,596,731
Lorimer Street: 1,048,153
Hewes Street: 1,444,652
Marcy Avenue: 2,620,348
Total: 26,886,255
If you compare these with the current numbers you'll see that ridership numbers at many stations were higher in the 50s but some were lower. Yes, 168th was the busiest.
David
Wow, look at those booming and alive Broadway El stations!
Marcy Avenue wasn't far behind!!! Where have all the customers gone?
It's amazing how the Jamaica Ave end of the El has stayed fairly simple. The Broadway El part of the list does show how the Neighborhood there has gone to hell since of the 50's. It has shown signs of a comeback now, but I bet if you looked at a list of the Broadway El stations from the late 70's-early 80's those stations probably would have been an all time low. I'm sure they have gradually been increasing since then.
It's amazing how the Jamaica Ave end of the El has stayed fairly simple.
I meant fairly similar
See what happens when you type faster than your brain can think......
Sounds like it should be a good place to live, along the Broadway El - it has all the infrastructure needed to become somewhere quite desirable. Pity Myrtle and Lex have gone and the connector from the Brooklyn Bridge to Chambers St never was built, or there could've been a very interesting service pattern:
- Metropolitan - Broadway Local - Chambers - Lex - Broadway Local - 111th St
- Metropolitan - Myrtle - Chambers - Broadway Local - 168th St Jamaica
- Broad St - Broadway Peak Direction Express - 168th St Jamaica
Sorry dude,moved away...didnt want my kids growing up ''little thugglets''
Without the actual figures, I'd say Cypress Hills, Alabama Ave, Chauncey St and Hewes St. were the least used. Am I close?
This is probably a bad time for me to ask but I'm just curious:
Assuming that the attitude toward US rail travel changes (along with funding), would Amtrak be able to turn a greater profit if it were to introduce high speed service on its two NYP-Chicago runs and two DC-CHI runs (I know, this requires the cooperation of the NS, CSX, and whatever other frieght lines own the trackage west of Pennsylvania)?
Did the Acela units that began fouling up go thru Bombardier's Plattsburgh facility?
Who else may have the ability to construct the high speed trainsets that can survive US railroads, since it has been proven that the TGVs, ICEs, and other bullet trains of Western Europe have questionable capabilities outside their home evironments?
A choice: Boeing 737 vs. A320? Triple 7 vs. A340? 747 vs. the soon-to-be A380 (a full legnth double-decker jet that stands to make the fortress bombers of WWII look like a speck on the map)?
Assuming that the attitude toward US rail travel changes...would Amtrak be able to turn a greater profit if it were to introduce high speed service on its two NYP-Chicago runs and two DC-CHI runs?
Probably not. Amtrak will turn the greatest profit if it reduced the NYP-CHI and WAS-CHI corridor down to just one, and operated trains departing abouy every hour from about 5pm to 10pm. (Five trains per day). Trains will probably travel from NYP to WAS along the NEC, then run along a different track to PIT, CLE, CHI and maybe MKE.
Who else may have the ability to construct the high speed trainsets that can survive US railroads...
The X2000 would have done a pretty good job. It was engineered for crappy and curvy track in Sweden, and ABB did factor in the "conversion" costs to a U.S. based system (with their experience in building AEM-7's, they knew what to expect from U.S. track). That's why they weren't the low-bid on the block, and that was why they lost the contract. Alstom, on the other hand, was totally naive, did not factor in the costs of the "conversion", and assumed their kit will work as well in France as in the U.S. Now look what happened.
A choice: Boeing 737 vs. A320? Triple 7 vs. A340? 747 vs. the soon-to-be A380 (a full legnth double-decker jet that stands to make the fortress bombers of WWII look like a speck on the map)?
The European aeroplanes have fly-by-wire, whilst the Boeings relies on effectively 1960's technology. 737-900 is a reliable aeroplane with good fuel efficiency, I don't know enough about A320 to comment, but bear in mind that 737-900 is new while the A320 has not been updated in at least a decade. A340 is a cheap-ass piece of crap, I think the 777 wins hands down there. 747-400 is no longer that efficient since a 777 has pretty much similar capabilities but has only two engines. The A380 is going to be a four-engined plane with its humungous maintenance costs and a very small market (even JFK-LHR can't generate enough passenger volumes to fill that plane). With most short-haul flights going to every 1/2 hour, I expect A380 to be a flop.
AEM7
I agree with you (see my other post). Sound logic.
The 747-400 and 400ER still have an advantage on the payload vs. range curve (esp the ER) over the 777, but you are correct in that the 777-300 and ER versions are starting to approach the 747's carrying capacity. And I believe a 777 holds the world's record for a long flight by commercial airliner (New York to Sydney non-stop or something like that).
Certainly I would retire a 747-200 if I had a chance to replace it with a 777. The 747-400 also has the glass cockpit, which the 747-300 and earlier do not have.
On the first point, from an operational standpoint, it would be fairly efficient to do such a thing. The trick is, which route - via Pittsburgh/Cleveland, or via Manassas Jct/Cincinatti - should the greatest number of daily runs go through if were talking MYP to WAS? Of course fans of the Lake Shore LTD and the old Bway LTD (now Three Rivers) would balk, but then again, doesn't Pennsy have the Pensylvanian for PHI-CHI, and the Boston branch for Mass/Upstate NY customers?
On the second point, Alstom's mistake was Amtrak's loss. Particularly when factoring in that the ABB-built X2000 was already tested on the NEC, and ABB has several units that are in daily service for Amtrak, NJT, and MARC.
Last point: if Airbus does not manage to get out enough new A320s soon, they'll have only themselves to blame (I mentioned in another post that I rode a Triple 7 while overseas. On the same trip I got to see the A320 for myself. I tended to mistaken the engines for propeller types given the noise that they were giving off. Oh, and I didn't care to much for the seats).
On the first point, from an operational standpoint, it would be fairly efficient to do such a thing. The trick is, which route - via Pittsburgh/Cleveland, or via Manassas Jct/Cincinatti - should the greatest number of daily runs go through if were talking NYP to WAS? Of course fans of the Lake Shore LTD and the old Bway LTD (now Three Rivers) would balk, but then again, doesn't Pennsy have the Pensylvanian for PHI-CHI, and the Boston branch for Mass/Upstate NY customers?
On the second point, Alstom's mistake was Amtrak's loss. Particularly when factoring in that the ABB-built X2000 was already tested on the NEC, and ABB has several units that are in daily service for Amtrak, NJT, and MARC.
Last point: if Airbus does not manage to get out enough new A320s soon, they'll have only themselves to blame (I mentioned in another post that I rode a Triple 7 while overseas. On the same trip I got to see the A320 for myself. I tended to mistaken the engines for propeller types given the noise that they were giving off. Oh, and I didn't care to much for the seats).
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On the first point, from an operational standpoint, it would be fairly efficient to do such a thing. The trick is, which route - via Pittsburgh/Cleveland, or via Manassas Jct/Cincinatti - should the greatest number of daily runs go through if were talking NYP to WAS?
There's only enough money to upgrade one route. So choose. Which would *I* choose? Well, my criteria is that the route must hit all the population centers along the way. I would choose the old Conrail between Cleveland and Chicago, because it's in excellent shape and it goes right through Cleveland and also a spur to Detroit is only 56 miles. As for Columbus, Cincinnati and Indianapolis, tough shit.
Now that NS owns the ex-PRR main into Chicago (Fort Wayne Line) and the ex-NYC main, it wouldn't be too hard (with sufficient funds) to divert all through freight to the ex-PRR main and do up the ex-NYC main for passenger traffic. This is going to require Federal funding, but seems like a smart thing to do.
Of course fans of the Lake Shore LTD and the old Bway LTD (now Three Rivers) would balk, but then again, doesn't Pennsy have the Pensylvanian for PHI-CHI, and the Boston branch for Mass/Upstate NY customers?
As for the route between Washington and Pittsburgh, it is likely that a reconstruction of any route chosen is required. Again, population centers are the key. The old PRR hits nothing more than PA hick towns, the old NYC is best in terms of population but it goes in completely the wrong direction. I suspect the best route there is to upgrade the old B&O. The infrastructure there is really crapped out and it would be cheaper to run B&O freight trains elsewhere than to upgrade that line for any serious intermodal work. So again, throw all the freight trains off it to the old C&O route, upgrade the capacity on the old C&O to accommodate freight, and upgrade the old B&O to give a high speed route WAS-PIT-CLE, which conveniently happens to be part of the BOS-NYP-WAS-CLE-CHI overnight route.
AEM7
Of course fans of the Lake Shore LTD and the old Bway LTD (now Three Rivers) would balk, but then again, doesn't Pennsy have the Pensylvanian for PHI-CHI, and the Boston branch for Mass/Upstate NY customers?
No... PRR had a portion that was put together at Harrisburg for NYP, PHL and WAS customers. WAS customers came up through the (now NS) Port Road while the PRR and NYP customers went up the main line. The NYC had the NYP and BOS portions which were combined at Albany. That's still too many trains. What I had proposed is effectively for the trains to have a Northeast Corridor portion and a Florida Corridor portion that are combined at Washington. We'd have a triangle of overnight high speed rail which happens to run on existing corridor trackage, between CHI, BOS, and MIA, via CLE, PIT, WAS, PHL, NYP, and MCO.
What a mixed bag of questions!
I don't understand the rationale of buying an A340 vs a 777, other than very steep govt-funded discounts. The 777's engine performance is incredibly reliable, and its economy of operation outstrips the A340 by a wide margin (they're not even close). With equivalent pricing, the 777 wins hands down on performance and economy of service.
The A320 has some design advantages over the 737, which Boeing only lately has started to improve with its Next Generation 737. I have to admit the A320 is a nice airplane. Of course, we still have to get to the bottom of the composite tail problem. I think Boeing by and large has solved the elevator problem that affected a few of its 737s.
The A380 is larger than the largest Boeing jumbo, the 747-400ER. In today's climate, I see many airlines deferring delivery of both, and sending a lot of airplanes to the Arizona boneyard for storage.
If and when business recovers, the A380 will serve a small niche of market which Boeing is ceding to Airbus. Boeing is betting the future on its sonic cruiser, which will more ably serve the point-to-point long-distance market.
If and when business recovers, the A380 will serve a small niche of market which Boeing is ceding to Airbus. Boeing is betting the future on its sonic cruiser, which will more ably serve the point-to-point long-distance market.
Hey, you seem to be pretty well informed on this kind of stuff. I think they are both going to be flops. The real battle is going to be between the 717 and 757 and the A318 and A319.
AEM7
The real battle is going to be between the 717 and 757 and the A318 and A319
And, dare I say it, the Bombardier CRJ-40 and CRJ-50's...
The future is in those annoying regional jets and small aeroplanes, if the airline market continues to be the way it is. Basically, deregulation removed the ability for air carriers to plan ahead, thus it now makes more sense to buy smaller and more flexible airplanes which you can redeploy at a moment's notice and can sell to someone else if you're about to go under. I suspect we would see editions of 757's which are equipped for quick conversion to a freighter should the need arise.
Lots of 727's are still in freight service, and many of them are about to fall apart, so if I were a passenger carrier today I would be eyeing the freight replacement market to get rid of my DC-9's and my 737-200's...
AEM7
You make some interesting points there.
Assuming the airline industry recovers in the near future (cough, cough, gag)...
The airplanes you mention in your post have very similar power plants, generally. CFM International's CFM-56 series, based on the TF-30 B-1 bomber engine (GE) minus the afterbrner, mated to a SNECMA fan and gearbox, is the world's best selling airliner engine. Both Boeing and Airbus use it for medium jet transports.
This means their competition is really about the cabin's creature comforts, control surfaces (hydraulic vs. fly-by-wire) and financing.
How would you rate Boeing and Airbus on the above?
I dont think passengers really mind what plane they fly in as long as it has wings. And that is what it is all about. Apart from a few business people it is price that determines what airlines people fly with, if a choice is available. When the A380 enters service and the price of a trans-atlantic ticket is reduced to around $200 round trip you can all come over to the UK for a field trip - provided we don't have a middle east war and the cost of oil goes through the roof.
Simon
Swindon UK
Some have been asking to nuke the Iraqis till they glow...
The real battle is going to be between the 717 and 757 and the A318 and A319.
The 717? Boeing's commitment to keeping the 717 in production is questionable. It is, after all, the company's only "inherited" jet. AirTran is just about the only major carrier still ordering them.
The 717 is the ex-McDonnell Douglas MD-95. With the new BMW-Rolls Royce engines and glass cockpit it is a very nicely performing airplane, but market response has been slow. Boeing does have enough customer backlog to keep it in production.
Boeing has not entered the RJ (less than 100 passenger) market but the company doesn't want to leave 100 passenger or greater by default to Airbus.
<< The real battle is going to be between the 717 and 757 and the A318 and A319. >>
Boeing is discontinuing the 717. This was the last variant by McDonnell Douglas of the DC-9 and if TWA hadn't placed such a large order, BA would have dropped it immediately once they purchased MD. Once AA bought TWA and canceled the balance of the deliveries, that signed the death warrant for the 717.
There's really no comparison between the 717 and the 757. The latter has a much longer range and greater passenger/payload capacity. Both are twin engine/two pilot aircraft so there was no major cost advantage to the former, although being a smaller aircraft it used less fuel.
Has Boeing really decided to drop it?
Well, if nobody's buying...
Boeing's discontinuance of the 717 is still a matter of conjecture. It probably would have been cancelled but for a big order from AirTran. When deliveries on that order are completed, which IIRC won't be for a few years, the 717's survival almost certainly will depend on whether any orders have been placed in the meantime. So far nothing has, but as this is hardly a golden age for the airline industry it might be unwarranted to jump to conclusions.
Bottom line: the 717 is shaky, but not yet dead.
Boys, boys, I leave to do an engine change on an A319 in ST. Louis for a few days and all this aircraft talk. While in STL AA was getting rid of the last two B717 in the former TWA/AA fleet. The lease payments were not to their liking. The A320 does not have tail problems per se and Boeing has not solved the mystery of ` the uncommanded rudder movements`. TWA`s B717 are going to Australia, so no major airline in the USA is currently flying them. { Air Trans is not a major} Hope you enjoyed your stay in Phoenix.
Boeing is discontinuing the 717.
That is a real stupid decision. This means any sub-100-seater aircraft market will go to either Bombardier with an extended RJ-50 or Airbus with the A318. Both are shit aircrafts. The 737 is too small to do what the 717 does. I don't believe Boeing can afford to drop out of the Regional Jet market.
AEM7
Correction: 737 is TOO LARGE to do what the 717 does.
I would agree. I should point out, though, that Boeing doesn't sell anything under 100 seats now (unless we talk about a custom-fitted 737 Boeing Business Jet.
IIRC, BA will discontinue the 717 line after the AirTran orders are filled.
Remember, the 717 was a McDonnell Douglas aircraft. It is the only craft being built in Long Beach, MD's old assembly line. BA does some subassembly work for other aircraft there but no other BA aircratft are built there.
The jigs for the 717 cannot be used for anything else. There is no commonality between the 717 and any other Boeing aircraft. In addition, the workers at the Long Beach plant are former MD employees with a history of labor disputes; BA would just as soon be rid of them.
The airlines would just as soon phase out smaller aircraft and the routes that don't support a higher passenger load. American Airlines announced just a few days ago they will phase out all F-100 aircraft. With the hemorrhaging going on in the airline industry, those still standing are desperately trying to follow Southwest's business model: Less hub and spoke, more direct flights, and only one aircraft type. One type means less spare parts, lower training costs for pilots (for example, all SW pilots are rated to fly any 737 aircraft in the fleet, even though the models range from the -200 to the -800; an AA 737 captain cannot pilot a 767 unless he happens to be crosstrained and type-rated for the latter).
Short-haul flights with smaller aircraft, like the RJs, are being flown by regional carriers with alliances to the majors. The majors like it because they don't need to fly as many aircraft (reducing their costs); the regionals enjoy the advantages of affiliation with the majors and much lower labor costs; some aren't unionized and even when they are, wages are much lower.
To get back on topic, Amtrak should take advantage of the airlines woes. Beef up intercity service between major non-NE city pairs (e.g., St. Louis - Chicago, Chicago- Milwaukee, Milwaukee - MSP, etc.) and make the travel time competitive with flying. For example, last week I flew between St. Louis and Chicago. Yes, I was able to make it round trip in one day: the flight was just over an hour and I needed to get to the airports an hour before the flights.
Current rail travel time is 5 hours between the two cities with a whopping two trains a day. The distance is less than 300 miles; no reason why that trip couldn't be accomplished in under 3 hours, even allowing for a few stops along the way (say, Springfield and Bloomington). It took me 2 hours to fly and I would gladly spend the additional hour on a train if only for the extra comfort. With reasonable frequency of service I could have caught a morning train up and a noon train back. After all, 50 years ago there were 12+ trains a day between the two cities!
I realize this will never happen, of course. The existing track won't support such high speed travel and the freight railroads control the road. Still, the time to make hay is when the sun is shining and Amtrak should take advantage of this situation while they can. The problem is, they can't because they're so strapped after years of neglect and a hostile Congress.
An excellent analysis of air and rail. You hit the nail right on the head esp. about the regionals and major airlines and equipment requirements and usage.
Ron, does the A320 have the composite tail? I remember reading a bunch of articles after the Rockaways crash last November. A couple of them mentioned the various plane models that had the composite tail, and I didn't see the A320 listed. Of course, that could have been an oversight on the part of the writer. I was concerned about the A320 because I do travel in them (albeit new ones, on JetBlue) several times a year.
As for the comparisons....I'm no expert on plane specs, but strictly from my own experience as a passenger, I prefer the A320 to the 737, just because the ride seems smoother. I've never been in an A340 or a 717, so I can't comment on that. I really like the 747 a lot, and I'm very curious to see what the A380 will be like....though I don't hold out much hope of actually riding in one on the routes I usually fly nowadays.
Yes the A320 has a composite tail. But my airline has yet to experience any structural problems. However A320`s are much younger than AA A300`s
I don't understand the rationale of buying an A340 vs a 777, other than very steep govt-funded discounts. The 777's engine performance is incredibly reliable, and its economy of operation outstrips the A340 by a wide margin (they're not even close). With equivalent pricing, the 777 wins hands down on performance and economy of service.
As an example of this performance issue, A340's cannot operate long-haul flights (e.g. British Airways' LHR nonstop) out of San Diego. They lack the power to safely clear the hills located off either end of SAN's short-ish main runway. Triple-7's, in contrast, have no such problem.
Airbus has been making note of the allegedly greater safety provided by the A340's four engines in a Volvo-esque ad campaign. One such ad that was used at a British airshow, which plays upon the fact that a Triple 7 would have to land at the closest adequate airport in the event of an engine failure, had pictures of polar bears - the obvious implication being that a transpacific flight might find itself diverted to some Godforsaken airstrip in the Aleutians if an engine failed. Even so, the Triple-7 has had an excellent safety record. I look forward to flying on one some day.
In defense of Airbus, I must say that the A319 we took to Phoenix a couple of weeks ago on America West was very nice. Its legroom was better than anything I've ever experienced on a Boeing.
I thought legroom was decided on by the airline, not the manufacturer (i.e., if the airline wants more seats, they get more seats).
It is.
"Assuming that the attitude toward US rail travel changes (along with funding), would Amtrak be able to turn a greater profit if it were to introduce high speed service on its two NYP-Chicago runs and two DC-CHI runs (I know, this requires the cooperation of the NS, CSX, and whatever other frieght lines own the trackage west of Pennsylvania)?"
First point first, no matter what Amtrak does, it isn't going to make a profit. Not even the NEC makes a profit, not even Acela Express by itself unless you count only operating expenses and exclude capital costs. Intercity passenger rail is like commuter rail or urban transit in that the goal is (or should be, despite the demands by some in the Bush Administration that Amtrak break even or die) to carry more people, not necessarily make a profit or even break even at the farebox.
Because there are thousands of miles of rail right-of-way in place that can be improved to carry more trains faster by adding a second or third track, more switches, closing or improving grade crossings, etc., money spent on Amtrak, or on railroads that carry Amtrak trains, tends to be a cost-effective way of carrying more people than investments in highways or airports. Land is expensive to buy, even for the government with its power of eminent domain, and airport and highway expansion requires hundreds of acres of new land while rail improvements can often be made within the limits of the existing right-of-way. A road crossing can be closed for less than $50,000, or new crossing gates and signals installed for $250,000; what does $250,000 get you on a highway or airport project? Also, airport and highway improvements tend to be all or nothing (a new runway is useless until complete, for example), while rail improvements can be done in a completely gradual manner if money is short. For example, every road crossing closed or improved with better gates allows trains to go a little faster. A bunch of long sidings can be built now, speeding up trains, and then linked up into a second or third track, speeding trains even more, when more money is available. Try doing that with new highway lanes!
what does $250,000 get you on a highway or airport project?
$250,000 can actually buy you about 1/2 mile worth of conversion from two-lane highways to four-lane highways in a rural setting. Four grade crossings thus is a two-mile stretch of highway upgrade.
AEM7
"$250,000 can actually buy you about 1/2 mile worth of conversion from two-lane highways to four-lane highways in a rural setting. Four grade crossings thus is a two-mile stretch of highway upgrade."
Not with some rural contractors...the type that get their pork from the likes of Byrd...
Irrelevant to the question at hand, of course, since the road-widening in the region served by commuter rail will cost a lot more...
heh. As many of you would have noticed, I'm basically hostile towards subsidizing transit. I'll find all sorts of excuses to defend my position, even when it's untenable. But then, I'm running around pretending that a lot of these transit systems could actually be profitable if it is managed properly. That notion is true to a certain extent. If it weren't for the political meddling, we'd have congestion pricing and in fact much of the transit systems would actually make money or break even. New York would probably be a different place without the flat fare. In fact I would argue that without the flat fare, New York may well become much denser, especially if the subsidy to commuter rail is taken away. The roads will become more congested, but it will congest to the point that downtown and inner neighbourhoods would be vitalized.
My main point? Transit subsidy contributes to sprawl, and not prevent it.
AEM7
My main point? Transit subsidy contributes to sprawl, and not prevent it.
So I challange all of you to turn your argument on its head. Many Urban Planners have claimed that by subsidizing transit, we reduce sprawl and we make the cities more livable. Let's examine the opposite argument. If we had a transit surcharge, what would happen? Alright, so the highways would congest up, and no one would use the transit except the rich. But why would the rich use transit? Clearly, if they are rich enough to buy a car, then they may as well drive?
Point being made here. New York, without a flat fare on the subway, and without the subsidized commuter rail, would congest to the extent that it is no longer possible for everyone to live in the suburbs. Outlying suburbs would be abandoned and low-density neighbourhoods in Queens would be converted into high-density neighbourhoods and because people would pay premium to live there in order to avoid the congestion and the high-priced commuter rail. High density. Efficient city.
Think that would take business advantage away from New York? What if Chicago did the same, and Los Angeles did the same? And you think New York isn't enough of an incumbant to survive?
The cities that should REALLY worry about real-world transit pricing is not New York. It's the cities that shouldn't really exist, like Toledo, OH and Binghamton, NY.
AEM7
Your entire post is complete trash because it ignores the economics around the city. Without the means to control or stop sprawl or uncontrolled land use outside the city, anything which makes the city more expensive will discourage revitilization. This is not theory. This is documented fact.
If you like to post just because you like to see yourself in print, fine. But don't pretend to make supportable arguments (actually, you did say you're willing to post unsupportable things. I acknowledge this).
I happen to respectfully disagree with you. Much of your so-called "fact" draws on urban planning literature, much of it done by people who have very poor understanding of economics.
Your entire post is complete trash because it ignores the economics around the city. Without the means to control or stop sprawl or uncontrolled land use outside the city, anything which makes the city more expensive will discourage revitilization. This is not theory. This is documented fact.
Probably documented "facts" based on very biased sample or without accounting for some external reason. Basic economics says that if you make the city more expensive and transportation more expensive, then there comes to a point when equlibrium would be reached and people will settle where it is cheapest. All your "facts" clearly assume uncongested roads and/or subsidized transit. Economic forces will act to stop uncontrolled land use outside the city merely on distance alone and the cost of transportation. More so than you like to admit.
For instance, people routinely commute from New Hampshire to Boston. This would not happen if we simply slapped a toll to cover the infrastructure costs on the Concord Turnpike and the Northeast Expressway.
I understand that challenging long-standing assumptions, especially ones that are CORE to the foundations of an existing discipline, is difficult, and often people would not see my point. I urge you to go back to the first principles (and consider where YOU would live) if the economic landscape is much different from what it is today.
Rich people living out of town is counter-intuitive. Think about it. In Asia, the richest live downtown and the poorer commute. Why? You might also notice that Asian cities are a lot more compact, and generally efficient, although standards of living is not as high. Transportation subsidy of ANY KIND is an attempt by the rich to make other people pay for their high standards of living (large yard, quiet neighbourhood, etc). Somehow, they also conned the city poor to go along with them, just because the city poor want their $1.50 subway fare.
AEM7
"Much of your so-called "fact" draws on urban planning literature, much of it done by people who have very poor understanding of economics."
No, it's not. It's economic and demographic history available to anyone to look at. You need neither a degree in urban planning nor economics to understand it.
And, by the way, since you don't know anything about urban planning, it seems silly for you to try to pass judgment on it. But with you, that's often par for the course.
"All your "facts" clearly assume uncongested roads and/or subsidized transit."
Really? Look around Los Angeles sometime....
Back to school for AEM7 (and do it for real, this time...not with the cereal boxes...)
And, by the way, since you don't know anything about urban planning...
Well, I never professed to be an expert in urban planning. But there is a reason I didn't choose to go to school for urban planning. Having read some of the s**t they spew, I steered well clear of it. And, yes, I have read a few things that urban planners wrote. I didn't believe much of it.
Really? Look around Los Angeles sometime....
Right, and when was the planning for LA done? Did it assume uncongested roads? Let me tell you something. I have in my hand a report from AATHSO. It's something about provision of Parking and zoning requirements for parking provision. They in fact use the maximum unconstrained demand as the minimum space requirement. Many cities have incorporated this into their planning requirements. So you're telling me Urban Planning types are not to blame?
Here's an article about that kind of issues, which you should read:
UC Berkeley's Transportation Department Journal, the "Access", page 20, Donald Shoup reinforces the lessons we learned in Statistics 101 in his excellent article "Roughly Right or Precisely Wrong". Access 20 is at: http://www.uctc.net/access/access20.pdf, and more information is at:http://www.uctc.net/access/access.html
And this is an e-mail I wrote about the article:
He also discusses an underlying problem that had been going around as long as city planning has been around. Traditionally, traffic engineers have wanted to "cater to the demand" rather than practice congestion management. The result seem to have been carried through to city planning practices where the minimum amount of required parking had been set by using the unconstrained demand figures that traffic engineers have calculated. Whilst the methodology for estimating the unconstrained demand is reasonable, it seemed to me that some city planners did not understand the distinction between "unconstrained demand" and "required capacity".
AEM7
Donald Shoup is certainly entitled to his point of view. He writes well. It was good of you to post those links.
How many other economists would agree with him?
As far as land use goes, there are plenty of examples where land use was influenced in a predicyable way by the presence of mass transit. Washington's Red Line, the 63rd Street project' effect on Roosevelt Island, are all good examples.
BART is interesting. It is a far less extensive system than many of its brethren. While it takes you long distances, it doesn't fan out a lot. But maybe it doesn't need to.
How well or efficiently does it interact with Muni rail and bus assets?
Donald Shoup is certainly entitled to his point of view. How many other economists would agree with him?
I agree with what he said in that article, for the most part. I also know a number of people that I work with agree with him. Evidently, you don't -- I'd be interested in your views on that. It sounded like you know something about his reputation beyond that article. Care to expand?
As far as land use goes, there are plenty of examples where land use was influenced in a predictable way by the presence of mass transit.
Boston has its own examples: Davis Sq on the Red Line, the demolition of the Washington St El. Also influence on land-use of highway construction: witness Dudley Sq and the Southeast Expressway.
That's not the point I'm arguing against. Evidence stacks up that there is a link between transportation facilities and land use. The point I dispute is that many Urban Planning types forget this particular link when they do their capacity planning. This includes the MTA. MTA doesn't seem to realize that if you subsidize LIRR and Metro-North, then you will encourage people to live further and further out. Subsidizing the highways is bad enough, but if you subsidize every mode, what's going to happen? I have a research report from a guy at the University of Naples. He did one of those land-use transportation integrated models, and found that if you lowered railroad freight rates to Southern Italy, BOTH railroad traffic volumes and TRUCK traffic volumes increased. He also has an urban model for Rome. All these recent research findings point towards what I'd suspected all along; transportation subsidy CAUSES over consumption of transportation.
If you build a 2nd Ave el, they will come. If you build it, they will come. They will come in droves if you set the price to be constant. They will not come like crazy if you set the price up such that they are at the social marginal cost...
*head beginning to ache*
Subsidized highways is not an excuse for subsidizing transit.
AEM7
Your point about commuter rail subsidies is actually not a bad one. Recall, however, that transit agencies are as vulnerable to suburban voters as any other govt body.
SEPTA is a much better example of this than MTA. All of SEPTA's commissioners save two are suburban (mostly Republican) and don't care as much about Philly. This is why SEPTA regional commuters pay much less % of the cost to ride than subway commuters do.
SEPTA's subway and trolley commuters do not pay the cost of their ride in fares because ridership has not approached critical mass the way it does in NY. SEPTA carries 1million daily riders on all forms of transport.
Make no mistake, though: shut down commuter rail, and Philadelphia suffers.
"transportation subsidy CAUSES over consumption of transportation."
Excellent point, but is it a big effect when it comes to commuter rail and subways?
I'm not going to move to Poughkeepsie just because I can get a really cheap fare into the city, because I then have to spend 4 hours a day on the train. If I am a "typical" middle class New Yorker and earn between $20 and $50 per hour, the 4 hours is a much bigger cost than any subsidy I get from the cheap fare.
I'm also not going to take 4 rush hour trips per day instead of 2 because I'm getting a subsidized fare.
I may take some additional off-peak trips, but I would contend that the marginal cost to the MTA to provide those trips is pretty low, so the subsidy is minimal on off-peak trips.
I would agree that the subsidy issue is a major one when it comes to freight, but that's a different issue.
Excellent point, but is it a big effect when it comes to commuter rail and subways? I'm not going to move to Poughkeepsie just because I can get a really cheap fare into the city, because I then have to spend 4 hours a day on the train.
Yes, it is a big effect, actually. Consider the following Boston suburbs: Newton, Canton.
Newton is connected to downtown by the Mass Pike, but that's a toll road. So you have the choice of riding the commuter rail, which takes about 15 mins, or riding the Green Line that takes around 40 mins. People go live in Newton because they say their work is "right there", because they don't really see the $105 or so per month Zone 2 commuter rail pass as a big cost. People add this to their rent, so they would rent an apartment for say $1,200 per month and add the $105 onto the rent.
Now, if the commuter rail pass was $315 (reflecting something more like the operating costs), then those same people either have to swallow that increase, or spend 40 mins/day on that annoying Green Line, or have to pay the additional lease payment on a car of say $500 per month and the $0.75 daily toll on Mass Pike. The person is then much more likely to say "screw this, I'm moving to Dorchester where it's only 20 mins by bus to work". Rent in Dorchester will go up to reflect this, and Rent in Newton will go down to reflect this.
Rent in Dorchester increase enough, it is suddenly worthwhile for property developer to tear down that eyesore by Dudley Sq and make an apartment complex out of it. Voila, urban redevelopment and increase of urban density.
Same applies to Canton, MA -- on a larger scale. I would bet you Canton would lose some of its property value to closer-in suburbs like Hyde Park and even Ashmont if the commuter rail were priced at social marginal cost.
AEM7
The above scenario might work if only road building were restricted (or fairly priced) similarly. Won't happen. (I'd want it to, frankly. Maybe city residents should be given two votes for every suburbanite's one vote...OK, maybe not)
OK, if your numbers are right about the subsidy for rail from places like Newton, I'll grant there's a big effect in the Boston Metro area.
I don't think the effect is anywhere near as big in NYC. The only place I can think of that seem analogous to Newton or Canton (middle class, but close in on a very good railroad connection) is Bayside ($117 per mo., 30 minutes except 20 mins. on a handful of rush hour trains). All other middle class rail commuter stations are further out.
Rents/prices are in fact going up tremendously in places like Astoria, Long Island City, and Harlem because they are fairly close in.
Rents/prices in the East and West Village, Soho, Tribeca, Brooklyn Heights, Boerum Hill, etc. have previously gone up astronomically because of proximity to the business district.
If you like to post just because you like to see yourself in print, fine.
I post because I'm bored. I make the occasional errors in an argument when I'm not thinking entirely logically. This happens to everybody from time to time.
Most of the time, what I say is what I really believe, and is usually backed up by sound economics, although like I said, the assumptions I make are often very different from what is the situation today, and my task is to change the economic landscape so that it looks more like what I describe. Urban Planners are kind of pragmatic people. They measure what's there and they try to do something to fix it. Band-aids, duct tapes. Economists are the people who think about the overall system and then try to determine what is efficient. Unfortunately, most of the time urban planners win, because they sell it to the public with some kind of short-term benefits, such as reduced subway fare.
AEM7
"I post because I'm bored."
Subtalk can be very addicting.
By the way, you didn't answer my Airbus vs. Boeing question...
heh. There are things that extend beyond my sphere of knowledge. I'll sit on that and get back with you. I don't believe that the competition is based entirely on the interiors (which are configurable by the carrier, by the way), the controls, and the financing. Airframe engineering is as complicated as railcar engineering (if not more so). So there is some expertise in there.
AEM7
"Airframe engineering is as complicated as railcar engineering (if not more so). So there is some expertise in there"
Yes, of course. Right about that. I should not gloss over that. This engineering contributes to what the passenger sees...
I noticed that you favor subsized road building (inherently so - there is no other kind). Transit can contribute to sprawl but most often controls it and contains it. Road building's contribution to sprawl is massive and uncontrolled.
I meant subsidized road building...not subsized...
Although if we were to build teeny-weeny roads, then more people would HAVE to take mass transit. Might not be such a bad idea actually. :)
I noticed that you favor subsized road building (inherently so - there is no other kind).
Toll road? EZ-pass?
I've never in any post on this forum suggested that new roads should be built. The point is more to make existing roads congested. I love congestion. I love sailing through on the commuter rail when everyone else is in a gridlock. I don't even mind paying high prices for commuter rail.
AEM7
I happen to know some stuff about airplanes, it is my hobby and I have been observing them since i was 2 years old. Out of all the Airbus airplanes the A-320 may be the best. Yes it does have a composite tale as alll airbuses post the a-300b4 do. As far as the flight I have been on an A-330 not an A-340 how ever they are virtually identical with the exception of the number of engines. The A-330/;'340 is no bargain as they are cramped inside and do not offer the best flight. I spoke to an American Airlines Pilot once and he said that almost all pilots preffer flying Boeing Aircraft over Airbus. There are 2 main reasons. 1) Boeing builds its cockpits bigger and more user friendly than airbus. 2) Boeing wings are much more pliable and flexible, thus their airplanes deal with turbulence better. During turbulence you will almosty always get a smoother ride out of a Boeing. The 777 is by far the best airplane in terms of passenger comfort and amenities. It is also one of the cheapest or the cheapest mile per-seat cost of any airplane out there. The reason many airlines buy the A-340 is it comes with a cheaper price tag that the 777, however in the klong run the 777 is cheaper to operate and maintain. The 747-400 is very close to the 777 in terms of comfort. The only detractor is the 747 is has 10 seats across compared to 9 for the 777. The 747 still gets some points for being the fastest subsonic airplane on the market. On a long haul flight having a 747-400 over another airplane can shave half an hour off the trip.
I think the A-380 is going to be a flop. There are a few reasons. 1) the Airline market royaly sucks now. 2) Passengers dislike the 747 because it is too big, takes too long to get off and too long to get your luggage. They will be even more pissed with this larger airplane. 3) Runways and terminals are not able to deal with a plane as large as the A-380 and the only way to operate them will be major restructurings and repaving of runways. 4)The A-380 is so large that it will create so much wake turbulence that the distance and time an airplane following it on take off will almost be doubled, therefore allowing for fewer departures and increasing delays. 5) this is not to mention if one of these should ever crash, you will have almost 600 people dead in one shot.
Over all I think the A-320 series is a good airplane, however I dont think I can give it the complete nod over the 737 series. The 777 and 747-400 win hands down over the A340/A380 for passenger comfort and reliability. The Europeans may have finally learned how to build decent airplanes but they are still not to the level that Boeing builds them.
A choice: Boeing 737 vs. A320? Triple 7 vs. A340? 747 vs. the soon-to-be A380 ?
737 Vs A320 is hard. 737's got the marketshare and experience, but it's an acient plane, not to mention a spotty history with uncomanded rudder deflections, which Boeing was very slow to address. The A320 is new, but has Airbus's also spotty fly by wire system, which pilots don't like, and has been fingered in a few crashes.
777 Vs A340? 777 wins. It's twin engined, has better FBW, passengers love it, and it's already ETOPS cleared. The A340 is ananomoly these days - a 4 hole aircraft. That's so.....50's...
747 Vs A380? A380. Airlines have ordered 80 or so, and Airbus isn't sure it'll even work. Airlines walked away from the 747 derivatives Boeing offered. The 747's a workhorse, for sure, but hardly the way anyone would design a plane today. It's also got a spotty safety record, though admittingly, it's a target of sabotage and terrorism, and has had a few bad breaks. I think once the initial opposition to the A380 is overcome, it'll become acepted like the 747 was (and many people claimed the 747 was 'too big'). The questions will be - can it operate into most airports, and can it aquire a good safety record from day one.
I think the real loser here is Boeing's Sonic Cruiser. So far, nobody has shown any real interest (i.e. orders), and I don't think there's a significant, if any, market for it. IMHO, Boeing had better get their act together fast, because Airbus has caught up and can easily surpass Boeing as the maker of choice, especially given how Boeing isn't even dominant in domestic sales. Boeing needs to cut the number of overlapping planes and get some standardization to their stuff...
Good points about the 737, though they were answered, belatedly, by the Next Generation series. But passengers have to like it. That's the ultimate arbiter.
"747 Vs A380? A380. Airlines have ordered 80 or so, and Airbus isn't sure it'll even work. Airlines walked away from the 747 derivatives Boeing offered. The 747's a workhorse, for sure, but hardly the way anyone would design a plane today. It's also got a spotty safety record, though admittingly, it's a target of sabotage and terrorism, and has had a few bad breaks"
False about safety. The 747 has one of the very best safety records in aviation. Aircraft losses were mostly due to terrorism, with only one recent loss tentatively due to a design problem (maybe) in the center fuel tank. Also, when an airline maintains a jet poorly, esp. a 747-100, you may have a problem. The world's worst air accident occurred in Tenerife, on the ground, and was due entirely to pilot error.
The 747 is an old design, true, but the 747-400 and ER versions are well suited to today's demands. The A380 will be accepted, but only for a niche market. Many airports cannot accept the jet. Boeing is ceding that to Airbus. Time will tell if that was a wise decision or not.
"I think the real loser here is Boeing's Sonic Cruiser. So far, nobody has shown any real interest (i.e. orders), and I don't think there's a significant, if any, market for it."
You don't have enough nearly enough information at your grasp to make a judgment like that. The airline market righht now sucks eggs for any airplane sales, so it is best to suspend judgment for two or three years.
Beyond that, Boeing has correct deduced that rapid point to point travel is edging out hub and spoke travel (even not counting the effects of the 9/11 tragedy) in customer preference. The Sonic Cruiser design is much better able to address that than any current design. The question will be whether Boeing will be able to delivewr on fuel and operating efficiencies while operating this jet at Mach 0.95.
But nobody is going to be ordering anything for a while...
"Beyond that, Boeing has correct deduced that rapid point to point travel is edging out hub and spoke travel (even not counting the effects of the 9/11 tragedy) in customer preference."
Why should there be any major change in the current pattern here? Us folks who live near NYC airports will always be a good market for point-to-point travel, since chances are good we're going to another big city.
But a sizable portion of the country doesn't live within an hour of one of the 20 largest airports. Usually they'll need to go through a hub.
So why should the balance between hub travel and point to point change significantly in the next 10 years?
So why should the balance between hub travel and point to point change significantly in the next 10 years?
Hub congestion, demand for shorter journey times, even larger cities, even more city-to-city flows, high speed rail replacing short haul flights, decline of established-route carriers...
There are many reasons to suppose that point-to-point travel will grow. Southwest has cashed in on that for the past 20 years. Induced demand, induced demand...
The first guys to lose out when there is excess capacity in a market is the hub guys. Direct flights are the least affected by a downturn in air travel.
AEM7
And the hubs are about to get worse. See my other post.
"And the hubs are about to get worse. See my other post."
But actually, the hubs are not getting worse as quickly as point-to-point has gotten worse.
The new security patterns have added 2 hours to my typical travel time for the first leg:
- Get to the airport 2 hours in advance instead of half an hour.
- Check baggage because I'm carrying something that is no longer allowed on board; wait half an hour extra at the far end to retrieve it.
The added time to the second leg due to increased security is zero. If they add a half hour because they have to make the connection times more generous, that's a drop in the bucket compared to what the new security rules did to the first leg.
Still, of course, I'd RATHER fly point-to-point. I'm just surprised (though less so after reading your post and AEM's post) if the airlines can really economically institute a significant change in the percentage of point to point flights.
Example: I just flew LGA-Calgary and return, via MSP. There are no non-stop flights, even though Calgary is definitely in the top 50 metro areas of the US and Canada. Can any one airline really conjure up enough people to fill a flight between NYC and Calgary? (Or Pittsburgh and Austin, or Hartford/Bradley and Salt Lake City, or any other combination of sizable but not huge locations).
"And the hubs are about to get worse. See my other post."
But actually, the hubs are not getting worse as quickly as point-to-point has gotten worse.
The new security patterns have added 2 hours to my typical travel time for the first leg:
Try re-reading my posts carefully before you answer. Watch what happens to connecting schedules over the next few months, and pay attention to airline business news (Irecommend the Wall Street Journal's coverage; you might try reading the Chicago papers too because Boeing has relocated there). Your experience, while frustrating, has nothing to do with the point to point vs. hub comparison. You'd have the same problem either way, and your delays at the hubs are going to increase.
Example: I just flew LGA-Calgary and return, via MSP. There are no non-stop flights, even though Calgary is definitely in the top 50 metro areas of the US and Canada. Can any one airline really conjure up enough people to fill a flight between NYC and Calgary?
Point to point works like this. Have you noticed that the hubs work best when they are in major metro areas? So, the 10 busiest destinations will have point to point service, for instance:
JFK, IAD, ATL, MCO, ORD, IAH, LAX, SFO, YYZ, and perhaps a few more. BOS would be by HSR to JFK, etc, etc. Smaller airports will carry commuter flights only, the long-haul people like AA and UA will exit those markets. Commuter flights will be run by people like Southwest, People Express, and JetBlue. The smaller cities will rely on commuter flights to get to the large-city airport before their line-haul leg. Yes, the smaller cities will get the screw.
AEM7
"But a sizable portion of the country doesn't live within an hour of one of the 20 largest airports. Usually they'll need to go through a hub."
No, they don't necessarily. And the number of airports relevant to this thread is more like 40 or 50, not 20. And The hub and spoke system is there, but its use is changing and even declining. In fact, the hub system will have a lot more delays, because the airlines are now spreading out their flights around the clock, not coordinating them closely.
This is why the Sonic Cruiser has the potential to do very well in the long run.
"And the number of airports relevant to this thread is more like 40 or 50, not 20."
Really? There are (40x39)/2 = 780 routes that justify point-to-point connections? (Minus a few because Newark-LGA won't happen).
I'm not necessarily disbelieveing you, just astonished.
But in any case, it was not a question of the desire for point-to-point, which I understand, but why that desire should be increasing.
Yes, that is correct. There are potentially that many (note potentially). What there is not is the need for airplanes of equal size to serve them (eg a point to point trip demand can be 747 sized or it can be regional jet sized).
If you've been paying attention to the news, you would have heard the announcement about load-spreading at hubs. This means that, instead of waiting 35 minutes for your connecting flight at O'Hare, you could be waiting 3 hours and 35 minutes for it.
This makes the hub a lot less attractive.
"This means that, instead of waiting 35 minutes for your connecting flight at O'Hare, you could be waiting 3 hours and 35 minutes for it."
I would have thought, instead of waiting 1 hour, rather 1.5 hours.
I would have thought, instead of waiting 1 hour, rather 1.5 hours.
Look at frequencies on some of the typical flights:
BOS-ORD about every hours, but only 1 in 4 flights are UAL.
ORD-LNK (Lincoln, Nebraska) -- about two flights per day, by United.
So if you happen to hit bad luck with your booking on the BOS-ORD leg, look for a very long wait at ORD. Previously, UA would schedule their BOS flights such that they get into ORD in time to meet the LNK flight, giving a 40-80 mins transfer time. Now they don't bother, so if you want to avoid interline transfer, you'll have an expected wait at ORD of 2 hours (stemming from the ORD flight leg) plus six hours (stemming from the LNK flight leg) = about 8 hours. Of course, they aren't *that* stupid, and they probably do look after connecting pax to a certain extent, but it's easily a 3-4 hour wait if you don't schedule the LNK flight to meet the "bank" from the East Coast.
AEM7
But in response to these issues, look at the codeshare arrangements that have recently been signed: United and USAir and today's announcement by Delta, Continental, and a third (Northwest?). So the first leg of your flight might be on Continental and the second might be Delta, but your baggage will (theoretically) move seamlessly and you'll be sold your ticket and billed by whichever of the three airlines you contacted when you made your reservation. Even Frequent Flyer miles will be based on the airline whose code you booked under.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The reason they're doing that is because they want to reduce delays and squeeze more service out of fewer airplanes. So they're not going to coordinate arrivals and departures in "waves" anymore. Profit maximization will be emphasized here, not revenue maximization.
The reason they're doing that is because they want to reduce delays and squeeze more service out of fewer airplanes.
That, and a very important factor is that by having more time at hub airports, that's more time to load cargo.
AEM7
Yes, very good! I hadn't thought of that.
It's also noteworthy that the nation's most successful carrier, whose name is too obvious to mention, operates largely in a point-to-point manner.
Yes indeed. Excellent point.
But they're cream skimming, taking a few lucrative point to point routes. That's not the same thing as a nationwide trend where point to point replaces hub in a significant manner.
Note that the two posters who say point to point is the wave of the future disagree about the number of city pairs it will support. One says 40x40/2, the other says much less.
But we both agree that hub operations are going to become less efficient, and to a degree, less important. It's already underway. The "hub and spoke" airlines are nearing bankruptcy (US Air already did, United is going to in November without drastic work changes; American is losing a lot of money but has more cash in the bank)
If you have specific evidence to the contrary, present it here.
Because the enormous cost efficiency of the hub and spoke system, it is here to stay. Cities such as Lincoln, NE; Des Monies, IA, and perhaps even Pittsburgh, PA, will get nothing more than hub and spoke service.
Places like PIT and PHL will get point-to-points to all the big airline hubs (i.e. the JFK, ORD, LAX, etc that I mentioned before), but PIT and CLE can no longer support a "hub" network. There will no longer be direct flights from PIT to LNK, to SEA, to PDX, and to MIA.
People who live in PIT probably won't notice much change, because if they're heading to a big city they really aren't affected, except the number of competitors would now be less, and if they wanted to fly direct they would have to pay monopoly prices.
The people who are going from small town to small town won't really get screwed either, because as it stands if you're heading from TYS (McGhee Tyson Airport in Northern Kentucky) to LNK, then you'd have to change at ATL anyway. Because ATL would remain a big hub, your route hadn't really changed. But you might have a longer wait at ATL because LNK flights would be cut back.
People who will really get screwed are the intermediate city pairs. If you're heading from PIT to DEN, or STL to DEN, good luck. Previously you had direct flights because there were hubs out of DEN and PIT and STL. Now there won't be. So you'll have to change at ORD or at somewhere braindead like IAH.
As for Southwest cream-skimming, that's not really what they are doing. If you argue that Southwest is cream-skimming, you can say the same about Amtrak Acela and about U.S. Airways Shuttle. Southwest is defniitely selective about what markets they enter, and they choose their markets based on a different formula to the other airlines. Doesn't mean they are cream-skimming. There are many markets which are a lot busier than what Southwest serves today and Southwest have not chosen to enter these markets. If Southwest really is cream-skimming, why aren't they flying NYP-WAS?
AEM7
If Southwest really is cream-skimming, why aren't they flying NYP-WAS?
It would be somewhat awkward taking off and landing at Penn Station and Union Station.
Hardy-har-har!
Southwest could acquire VTOL technology...or a big chopper. If you're not one of our passengers, we DON'T CARE about beheading you on 34 Street;)
There's the 30 Street heliport on the West Side too. You could just fly the tracks.
There is a commercial version of the MV-22 Osprey out - based on the XV-15 prototype. If the MV-22 does finally go into service, we may see commercial passengers riding its cousin. If the military ultimately rejects it due to continuing questions about safety, the FAA will probably not allow it into commercial service either (and there will be no customers for it).
I didn't say that hub and spoke is disappearing completely - only that it will lessen in importance.
"Because the enormous cost efficiency of the hub and spoke system, it is here to stay"
No, it's not really cost-efficient. It was designed to maximize revenue (and it did that). It was not designed to maximize profit (and it contributes to the red ink the airlines are seeing now, even if you factor out 9/11).
I agree with your comments about Southwest Airlines.
No, it's not really cost-efficient. It was designed to maximize revenue (and it did that). It was not designed to maximize profit (and it contributes to the red ink the airlines are seeing now, even if you factor out 9/11).
Actually, hub and spoke is enormously cost-efficient from a carrier perspective, compared with a totally-connected network.
Reasons:
(1) 20 cities with one hub generates 10*10 = 100 origin-destination pairs with one change of plane at the hub. To serve these 20 cities with directly-connected flights, you need (20*19)/2 routes = 190 flights. That's 190 flights versus 20 flights.
(2) Hub and spoke service makes adding incremental cities easy. So long as the revenue from that new city can justify the incremental costs of flying the aeroplane there, it gives you a positive network contribution.
AEM7
Hub and spoke makes adding incremental customers easy. However, the airlines' experience with hub and spoke as reflected on their balance sheets of the last 10 years directly contradicts your explanation.
as reflected on their balance sheets of the last 10 years directly contradicts your explanation.
Try looking on the balance sheets of Federal Express, United Parcel Service, Airbourne Express... oh and on the ground, Con-Way Transportation, Yellow Freight.
AEM7
"Try looking on the balance sheets of Federal Express, United Parcel Service, Airbourne Express... oh and on the ground, Con-Way Transportation, Yellow Freight."
And please don't forget the US Postal Service - world class in what it does, even if we complain about it. Excellent examples of systems which do work - but not for passengers.
Your theoretical explanation was fine. However, it loses in translation to the real world. As you gain more experience, I expect you'll be able to make the connections better between theory and application.
I respectfully disagree with you. Hub and spoke is the only way passenger air systems can work, given the U.S.'s urban pattern. Trains, on the other hand, are different, despite what SNCF might think.
I believe I actually have more passenger train operations experiences than you do, although since I have never seen your resume, I don't know. I could certainly be wrong. Which department are you?
AEM7
I won't be monitoring this thread (too many messages and subthreads) but I'll toss this out just for the sake of it ...
WHY is it that the only airlines that are "near-profitable" are the ones that DON'T follow the "hub and spoke" mentality and those who DO are the ones tanking the hardest? My understanding of airline economics is that airplanes ONLY make money in the air, not on the ground. It would seem to fly in the face of this "hub mentality" ...
That was my point.
The hub and spoke we have been used to restricts the number of flights each airplane can make, while the delays on the ground mean airplanes are burning fuel taxiing, idling and taking off instead of flying. It also means crews are serving more overtime than they should.
I'd also add that if I had to fly from Albany to Greenville, SC that once upon a time, US Hair used to have a direct flight. Now it'd involve Alb-Newark, Newark-Raleigh or Charlotte, there to Greenville. Amtrak looks MIGHTY good, especially with sneaker-sniffing stops along the way added. :)
And that doesn't even go into the silly economics as a reason why I'd rather take the train.
I'd have to second that with you. Case in point: I'm going to Florence, SC, in the northeast section of the state. Second stop in the state for the Silver Meteor (wee-hours of AM) and Silver Palm (after PM rush). Trying to fly there would require the use of ONLY one airline, Delta, to ATL-Hartsfield, then cattle herding to a propeller plane for the Florence city airport. Factor in security checks at LGA, baggage (and human) transfer time, it would be a very exhausting 6 hr trip, as compared to a now 18 hr ride on the Silver Service, with a much better opportunity for dinner and (maybe) breakfast. And that is not factoring in Delta's financial situation which makes it very enticing for the company to drop the very few ATL-FLO trips.
And don't forget the scenery.
Amen. And keep in mind, if (and that is a very big if) CSX and whoever they are lobbying in the FRA and Congress finally gives or is outflanked in some other way, and Amtrak can turn the NYP-MIA run into a high-speed corridor (turning a 20 hr trip into possibly 10-12 hrs) the issue of having to go thru the Hartsfield or Orlando hubs may become moot (much to the dismay of the airlines, of course). Obvious reason: people get to those smaller eastern seaboard cities more directly and more comfortably.
This does not allow for any reformation in the airline hub and spoke system. Nor does it take into consideration the actual competition ongoing in the NYP-ATL between the Cresent and whatever fights go down there.
And that is not factoring in Delta's financial situation which makes it very enticing for the company to drop the very few ATL-FLO trips.
Airline service to many smaller cities is subsidized under the federal Essential Air Service program. I don't know if DL's service to Florence gets a subsidy, however.
What do you know about optimization models that have been used to construct these crew pairings and aircraft rotations?
AEM7
I haven't looked at them. My post specifically refers to problems actually experienced at the hub.
If you are implying that the models used are flawed, and that better models should have been used, I would be receptive to that implication.
The implication is this:
Fleet utilization in Continental's flight plans versus Southwest's flight plans are in fact not much different. Hub systems are efficient if you have a number of hubs (i.e. Continental at EWR, IAH and SFO) spaced roughly the same distance apart then you're fine. Instead of hanging around waiting for planes to turn, they will send the plane elsewhere. For instance, recently on Delta, I became aware of this screwy aircraft rotation: SFO-SLC-ATL-BOS-SLC-DFO. The BOS-SLC is a red-eye flight, with the ATL-BOS move effectively being a ferry move. With optimization models, you can get fleet utilization up a lot higher even with a very complex network involving multiple hubs.
In terms of fleet utilization, in fact CO might achieve a higher fleet utilization percentage than Southwest, because CO's aircrafts fly coast to coast overnitue while Southwest's aircrafts sit.
Southwest has a very nice business model, but it won't work outside their niche market.
As for Southwest's famed "10-minute aircraft turn", this type of thing makes incremental differences of maybe one aircraft here and one aircraft there. On the other hand, DL's policy on the Shuttle is downright wasteful. Again, I believe the Southwest success is not *mainly* attributable to any one factor. It's a combination of incremental changes like a little on fleet utilization, a little on fleet costs, a little on route structure... but I also believe the most significant factor is the avoidence of mainstream competition and the realization that rational pricing helps everybody. No deep cuts, no extortions, just everyday low prices -- but high enough a price to give a 10% margin.
If it hadn't been for the recent fare-war between NW and everybody else, the airline industry may have returned to a more rational pricing structure post 9-11.
AEM7
I liked your post very much.
Additional factor to consider: How do Southwest and Continental compare on fleet performance? In other words, how often is an aircraft taken out of service, and how often does this screw up the replacement aircraft's assignment and therefore its efficiency of use?
"As for Southwest's famed "10-minute aircraft turn", this type of thing makes incremental differences of maybe one aircraft here and one aircraft there."
Don't poo-poo it so quickly. You did mention the little things Southwest does, but you underestimate their value.
Let's say, for argument sake: Two aircraft a day x 365 days a year = 730 flights you didn't have before.
Now add a few other little things that could make a difference (if Southwest uses them): For example, get rid of catered meals (Southwest did that). Get rid of multiple aircraft types to reduce maintenance costs (Southwest did that).
How about this: In Boston, a professor at MIT I'm friendly with, Patrick Winston, devised an AI program which automatically assigns arriving aircraft to the nearest gate and arranges gates for maximum efficiency. Savings: $100,000 a day in jet fuel for his airline customer. Annual savings: over $36 million per year. (I don't know if Southwest has a similar tool).
A lot of little things add up to a big cost difference.
Southwest also keeps its fleet utilization rate so high by avoiding crowded, delay-prone airports whenever possible. You won't see them at LGA for DCA, for example. Southwest also switched its San Francisco-area service to OAK from SFO because of too many fog delays in SFO.
Excellent point.
Works good on paper and that`s it. Grandpa Joe has a stroke on the aircraft at the gate, lavatory truck pulls out the servicing coupler,weather delays on other inbound flights with connecting passengers, security breach at the checkpoint and so on and so on and on: and I have not even spoken about haw each aircraft is scheduled for maintenance checks. Are you starting to get the bigger picture? The professer would have to program an awful lot of intangiables
"Works good on paper and that`s it."
That must be why the system has actually been deployed.
Maybe you're the one who isn't seeing the bigger picture. Your examples are valid, but those conditions would exist regardless of optimization efforts. So the airline is better off doing it and will benefit regardless. And the number of times your first example occurs doesn't really affect the picture overall at the end of the year. You're overestimating occurrences, because you're not working at a level where you can see the impact beyond the airplanee in front of you, and, judging from your post, the airline isn't paying you to measure those things across the fleet.
If you're really interested, talk to your vice president of operations, and then come back and post here.
WHY is it that the only airlines that are "near-profitable" are the ones that DON'T follow the "hub and spoke" mentality and those who DO are the ones tanking the hardest?
Simple competition shielding. What Southwest (and JetBlue to a lesser extent) is to serve niche markets in which nobody could practically compete, and then they could dictate prices. In the case of Southwest, the CEO realized that his market advantage was in keeping prices reasonable and avoid excess capacity, thus it's making a profit. It has little to do with his route structure. If the entire airline industry would price the way Southwest does, they would be making much bigger bucks than they do currently. It's a pricing issue, not really a cost issue. The operating costs per pax-mile for Southwest is only some $0.02 lower than the majors (see Southwest Annual Reports and UAL Annual Reports). If Southwest attempted to serve markets like EWR-IAD and LGA-DCA, then their operating costs will climb too. Why do you think Southwest has not entered those markets? Precisely because they are trying to avoid competition.
AEM7
Well, here in Smallbany, they're now the ONLY airline left standing. The others folded because feeding our geese into the meatgrinders (and those nasty hub landing fees and all) it just wasn't worth it to the others. SouthWest hasn't raised their prices yet.
I mean, I'm not trying to be argumentative here - the FedEx model works very nicely for packages when all planes converge in Tennessee based on a schedule and then they play "chinese fire drill" inside the warehouse and they all take off again in the middle of the night, but you'd have RIOTS if you were try to play that game with people.
I suspect this whole "hub and smoke" deal was too many beancounters reading all about FedEx in Fortune magazine without a clue that it wouldn't apply to moving PEOPLE who really don't want to be dragged through a terminal in East Futtbuck in the dead of night. :)
"The operating costs per pax-mile for Southwest is only some $0.02 lower than the majors (see Southwest Annual Reports and UAL Annual Reports)."
We must assume that annual reports are both equal in their disclosures. I will not tell you that this is not true, because I have not seen these reports. But clearly, the differences in disclosure and interpretation of accounting rules make a comparison like you just made very precarious. It's not clear yet just how much recent reforms by Congress and action by the SEC will improve things.
I'm not telling you that the 2 cent figure is wrong.
The operating costs per pax-mile for Southwest is only some $0.02 lower than the majors (see Southwest Annual Reports and UAL Annual Reports).
Economics of the airline industry are such that the two-cent difference is a BIG difference.
Yes, what I didn't tell everyone else was that the difference between UAL and AMR is something like $0.003. In perspective, Southwest's $0.02 is way ahead.
BUT -- and this is a big but -- if all they have is that cost advantage, their average fare cannot always be some 50% of that of the equivalent high-cost carrier. Usually, in any market that Southwest serves, if you look at the BTS data, their average fare is something like 50% of the highest cost carrier. $0.02 per paxmile isn't going to give you a 50% price advantage.
The truth is, on the pricing side, Southwest prices in such a way that the others cannot compete, thus any pax carried in those Southwest dominated markets by the majors are the Y-class and M-class passengers. The majors have a pricing issue.
AEM7
True to the extent that, in the past, the majors filled lots of $2,000 round-trip seats in coach class (walk-on fares). That's not true anymore.
>>> WHY is it that the only airlines that are "near-profitable" are the ones that DON'T follow the "hub and spoke" mentality and those who DO are the ones tanking the hardest? <<<
You have to go back to B-school and look at the theory of marginal sales to explain the phenomenon. If a company can sell 1000 widgets at a profit of $1.00 each, it can make $1,000.00, but if there is demand for 2000 widgets and it has the capacity to produce 2000 widgets using less productive techniques, at an increased cost per widget, so when they sell the 2000 widgets they make only 60¢ per widget, they end up with $1,200.00 profit. Therefore it makes more sense to produce 2000 widgets at the higher cost and lower profit margin than just 1000 widgets with a higher profit margin.
Hub and spoke operations are the method which was seen as the way to bring in more passengers at a lower profit per passenger. It works well as long as there are enough passengers. On the other hand, if there is a reduction of the number of passengers, it quickly moves the airline into the red, and farther into the red than carriers with lower costs.
Tom
Makes sense to me (I'm PROUD to be private sector heh) ... another interesting thing about our "new terrorist economy" is that car rentals are through the ROOF for "business class" customers who are lamenting the LACK of train service!
Like it or not, the "bunker mentality" may be Amtrak's BIGGEST booster ... watch "congrefs" fook it up.
... another interesting thing about our "new terrorist economy" is that car rentals are through the ROOF for "business class" customers who are lamenting the LACK of train service!
Rental cars can be in somewhat short supply at certain airports at certain times despite the overall falloff in air travel. What happened is that the rental companies trimmed their fleets too far in the wake of 9/11.
Of course, considering the absurd fees and extra charges they tack on, the rental companies should be able to make windfall profits even on reduced volume.
They're doing so, and to further complicate the "economy" many of them did major "panic buys" which of course had the side effect of the mysterious "strong new car sales" figures lately. They're done now, so let's see how auto manufacturer's stock does in the coming months. :)
Are you reading this, AEM-7?
LOL, I was sick and at home. Have a temperature, brain not working right. :-)
I hope you're feeling better. I sent you two emails on airline passenger-seat costs.
Hub and spoke had little to do with marginal sales. Marginal sales can be done on point-to-point airlines (in fact Southwest does it). It's called revenue management, where the last-minute sales are priced differently to the advance bookers (called Ramsay Pricing). Of course, Southwest could have had a flat fare, but they wouldn't make more money that way. Marginal sales in the airline industry would lead to average fares that are a lot higher than those that are in effect today.
Hub and spoke was basically a way to route aircrafts to minimize costs (from a carrier perspective). All pricing is done in a point-to-point fashion, hence the phenomenon of "hidden city pricing".
Was this what you expected, Ron?
AEM7
No, AEM-7. Actually, Tom is right (but you are not wrong). Hub and spoke is designed to facilitate marginal sales - that was a large part of the rationale for it. However, from a system engineering standpoint, it does offer efficiencies.
However, the airlines always ran the hub and spoke to maximize revenue, not take advantage of efficiencies. Maximizing efficiency discourages additional sales, because customers will be unhappy with some of the results. That is what is happening now.
I never said hub and spoke will be eliminated. I said it will decline. Ultimately an equilibrium will be reached between it and point to point flying.
I didn't introduce trains to the discussion. Does SNCF think that hub and spoke is best for rail service?
In what capacity have you actually operated trains?
Does SNCF think that hub and spoke is best for rail service?
Take a look at SNCF service map, and compare it to the Deutsche Bundersbahn service map.
In what capacity have you actually operated trains?
Train Planning Manager in charge of scheduling, and vehicle allocation/fleet management and demand management, 06/2000-06/2001. I don't want to have to name the agency in a public forum. As part of my training, I was acting as a revenue management specialist in place of someone on sick leave (it was a very small agency).
AEM7
Very nice. Do you have plans to reenter rail management in the US?
"Hub and spoke makes adding incremental customers easy. However, the airlines' experience with hub and spoke as reflected on their balance sheets of the last 10 years directly contradicts your explanation."
Remember the fallacy "post hoc propter hoc"?
Just because airlines went to hub and spoke, and then lost money, doesn't mean that was the reason. It might be or it might not be.
You need hub and spoke to allow air service between 500 US cities (give or take), as the major airlines do, in conjunction with their partners. You can't possibly have 500x499/2 city pairs.
The only question is how deep do direct flights go:
- top 10 cities to top 20?
- top 20 to top 40?
- top 40 to top 40?
I agree that the economics may be changing to allow greater use of direct flights. My guess is that somewhere around top 20 to top 40 is where direct flights stop working, but I have no numbers to back me up.
You're repeating yourself without making any more sense than the first time around. I invited you to back up your posts with some facts and you didn't.
Some analysis are done analytically -- i.e. without the real world data. Of course, until you can get real world data, there is no way of telling whether the analysis is right or wrong. The problem is, where you have cited real world data, you had failed to isolate variables. Many factor contributed to the problems the airlines are facing today, not just hub-and-spoke systems, although hub-and-spoke systems may have contributed to their demise because of (1) difference between perception and reality when it comes to economies of using a hub, and (2) the sunk cost involved in building a hub.
If you're interested in why you can lose money on a hub-and-spoke network, a look through journals like Aviation World between 1991 and 1995 for articles about American Airlines' Raleigh/Durham hub would give you more "real world information". Of course, Midway has since been there and done that, still screwed it up. On the other hand, some cities have been successful hubs from day one regardless of poor management. Witness Eastern at Atlanta and Miami. Both are still successful hubs despite dogshit management at Eastern.
A few months ago, we actually ran a model to demonstrate this. Hypothetical hubs set up in MCI, STL, ORD, MSP and MEM competed against each other. ORD won hands down, MEM and MCI end up going under. It's easy to see why.
AEM7
"The problem is, where you have cited real world data, you had failed to isolate variables."
Not really. Airlines have made a decision to change the way they use hubs and to deemphasize them to a degree - that is fact, not opinion. Look it up yourself.
"Many factor contributed to the problems the airlines are facing today, not just hub-and-spoke systems, although hub-and-spoke systems may have contributed to their demise because of (1) difference between perception and reality when it comes to economies of using a hub, and (2) the sunk cost involved in building a hub."
That perception included an expectation that the hub could be run efficiently - look at O'Hare and you'll see why that perception never matched reality. And one of the airlines using O'Hare, United, actually had a slight edge over other carriers in revenue because United carried most of the US mail into and out of O'Hare. That's a nice chunk of change that American and US Air were not earning (as much of, that is; most airlines carried some mail somewhere).
Why does the hub not work as well as it should? The way it is utilized (which is now changing dramatically); weather problems delaying flights (weather is always a problem at O'Hare and Dallas-Forth Worth); and yes, sunk costs as well.
Your observation about sunk cost is rather astute; many businesses do not make good decisions about that.
As to your models, well, that's interesting. Do you know how MCI and ORD compare in real life in terms of flight delays (due to weather, crowding etc.)? The problem with computer models is garbage in = garbage out.
On the other hand, they can be very powerful and useful if used properly.
Your comments are basically correct in terms of operations of the aircrafts and terminals. I am concerned that you don't consider the revenue and competitive impacts of these decisions.
Not really. Airlines have made a decision to change the way they use hubs and to deemphasize them to a degree
The fact that "airlines has" done something doesn't say anything. It probably just means Rob Crandall or whoever his successor is, is finally beginning to realize some of the things people have been saying for years. Again I agree with you that point-to-point is more efficient in a very small subset of circumstances. Southwest exploits this, the majors are realizing that they must exploit more of this.
However, hub-and-spoke is here to stay. For the majority of circumstances, they remain the most efficient method to transport passengers.
As to weather in ORD versus MCI, if you made the same number of flights fly into MCI versus ORD, you will find ORD comes out on top.
AEM7
It will be interesting to see where the new point-to-point and hub-spoke equilibrium settles.
Possible factors influencing this:
As the hub and spoke changes, it will become truer to the models. Delays will drop, fuel waste and employee overtime will drop.
At the same time, point-to-point flying will increase in proportion, and offer more schedule convenience than it does now. Boeing wants to introduce the Sonic Cruiser to shorten flight times; if the airplane performs well it will attract customers and perhaps even justify a premium fare, which would increase revenue and profit margins (notice I said IF). To perform well Boeing must deliver on reliability, fuel efficiency and speed, and of course it would be nice if customers approved of the creature comforts).
At some point there will be a new equilibrium between point to point and hub-spoke. Where will this be? Time will tell.
Perhaps you can run a model.
"I invited you to back up your posts with some facts and you didn't."
I made it clear they were opinions. Therefore facts aren't required. But you haven't provided any facts to sustantiate your claim that the air system will be able to support direct flights among the top 40 city pairs either.
If you have facts I'd really be interested in hearing them, and I might even change my opinion. But if yours is just an opinion, that's fine too, and it's equally as valid as mine.
Too bad I already deleted those Powerpoints I made for the Chicago-hub from the server. I'll be in the office tomorrow and will re-post these slides. They show how you run a hub and spoke system at a profit.
The real problem with the airlines today is not the hub-and-spoke system, but the irrational behaviour by a minority of managements in the industry. When there is excess industry capacity (and people like Boeing aren't helping), it's a problem especially if there are short-term selfish players around who don't understand the need to keep the industry intact.
So much for Open Access.
The world has turned full circle, we're back at my opinion that "free competition in infrastructure-intensive industries are disasterous".
AEM7
"The real problem with the airlines today is not the hub-and-spoke system, but the irrational behaviour by a minority of managements in the industry. When there is excess industry capacity (and people like Boeing aren't helping), it's a problem especially if there are short-term selfish players around who don't understand the need to keep the industry intact."
Of course. Company management will look to keep themselves intact first. The rest of the industry is but a secondary goal.
I'm sure they would find your integrity heartwarming. If only they had some too...
"I made it clear they were opinions. Therefore facts aren't required"
I wanted to make sure I'd read you correctly. As to my posts, go to the library, pick up the Wall Street Journal, and do some reading.
"But we both agree that hub operations are going to become less efficient, and to a degree, less important."
Yes, that I agree with. The tone of some postings was that this would be a fairly dramatic effect, rather than more subtle as suggested by AEM7's recent posting.
I see more evidence for subtle changes than dramatic ones. I'm willing to believe that the top 20 cities will be connected by direct flights to a greater degree than previously, but not the top 40 or 50, especially not pairs of cities both in the second tier of 20.
I just read through this entire thread, and 95% of it is OFF TOPIC!!!!!!! This is SubTalk - rail topics. As soon as the air entirely drift started, it was OFF TOPIC!!!.
Shame on everybody that not only started the airliners.net drift, but kept it up.
I hope Dave deletes the whole thread. It's as off-topic as the Astoria El thread was.
We hardly get to talk about the Airlines, so let us have fun.
Go to Airliners.net
I'm a rail transportation professional.
Damn, you people kill things...
Yeah, nobody likes you either.
I just read through this entire thread, and 95% of it is OFF TOPIC!!!!!!! This is SubTalk - rail topics. As soon as the air entirely drift started, it was OFF TOPIC!!!.
Shame on everybody that not only started the airliners.net drift, but kept it up.
I hope Dave deletes the whole thread. It's as off-topic as the Astoria El thread was.
Thread drift happens despite everyone's best intentions. It's one of those things that can't be avoided. At least in this case the topic has stayed transportation-related.
That was a waste of a post.
Hmmm...let's analyze this, shall we?
Lots of politicians have been bitten by the high-speed rail bug. High-speed rail, here, there, and EVERYWHERE. It will get people out of their cars and reduce the number of SHORT-HAUL FLIGHTS to increase space for the more profitable LONG-HAUL FLIGHTS. Revenue and passenger forceasts are often made in comparison to FLIGHTS in the corridor designated. In addition, we want to explore the possibility of airlines running a Lufthansa-like rail service or code-sharing with AMTRAK.
How do you plan to divert passengers from air to rail IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND AIR? Out of all of the people proposing high-speed rail, how many people knowledgable about how airlines WORK have actually contributed to these projects? HINT: Put the calculator away, you'll only need your fingers for this exercise.
This thread is a crash course in aircraft operations for me. I believe that this thread is important because when one has an idea of how both rail and air systems work, it puts them in a better capacity to create a TRANSPORTATION system that uses the best aspects of both. I hope that another 100-200 messages of info on operating costs, operating problems and successes as well as how airlines feel about different markets in the context of analyzing Acela's market share and the future market shares for other rail services will be posted. Then, I may have enough info to cook up schemes that just might be plausible to both airlines and rail. How much money would the airlines AND AMTRAK be able to extract from the government for better rail service?
You are entited to your own opinion, but if I am to plan rail services to serve the general public, I need to know how my competitors (or future partners) think and function in EVERY aspect of their business. This is the next level of discussion: a level which most rail supporters (or enthusiasts or even enemies) cannot participate because they only know their own turf, not the turf of the other. I invite you to reach the next level of discussion that may finally get the airlines to invest in trains.
I'm not joking about the planning thing. Between AEM7 and some of the other contributors, a consulting team like this could cost millions. I'm currently getting it for free;)
Wow, somebody who agreees with me about transportation policy...
Between AEM7 and some of the other contributors, a consulting team like this could cost millions
No, no, just about $20 an hour will buy you a grad student. They really are a cheap resource. Maybe I should start charging higher fare so I can provide better levels of service. heh.
I've only just realized how much info I had actually posted here. Disclaimer: not all of it will be 100% accurate, because of lapses in my memory and the occasional lapse in logic.
AEM7
"No, no, just about $20 an hour will buy you a grad student. They really are a cheap resource. Maybe I should start charging higher fare so I can provide better levels of service. heh."
Wow, you're expensive. Glad you're able to make more than "work-study."
I get less than $20 per hour. I know someone who got paid $20 per hour by CTA, contracted for a 40 hour week rather than variable hours which is what I have (I average about 20 billable hours per week). I was not at all amused.
Still, it pays the rent, and I didn't have to move to Chicago for the summer, and I had time off whenever I wanted. So it was a good deal.
AEM7
False about safety. The 747 has one of the very best safety records in aviation
Not really, acording to even Boeing. They used to have a .pdf file on their website titled "StatisticalSummary of Commercial Jet Airplane Accidents Worldwide Operations", I have the '99 version, there's a 2001 version up now. In the '99, the 747 was clearly 'in the center of the pack' with regard to 'hull loss acidents', though I don't know if that included nonfatal ones. As far as widebodies go, the DC-10/MD-11 is by far the worst.
The current numbers are at:
http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf
Certainly, they're all better than the first generation and the 707 / DC-8 were. By modern standards, those planes were deathtraps. I suspect the learning curve on jets was a lot steeper than most people anticipated (araly military ones had high accident rates, too).
The heartening trend is that each generation effectively gets safer, though at less than 2 accidents per million departures, on average, the overall safety of today's comercial jetliners is truely amazing.
Umm, if you believe that, you would believe anything.
Hull loss counts only planes that had been "written off". So an inflight on the ground fire in which most of the occupant were killed but the plane salvaged is not a hull loss, while a plane that crash landed and had its body stressed to an extent that it cannot be repaired, but everybody got out alive, would be a hull loss.
AEM7
Hull loss counts only planes that had been "written off". So an inflight on the ground fire in which most of the occupant were killed but the plane salvaged is not a hull loss, while a plane that crash landed and had its body stressed to an extent that it cannot be repaired, but everybody got out alive, would be a hull loss.
Your first example is ridiculous. Unless I am very completely mistaken, there has never been any such incident. The only non-crash fire that resulted in many deaths was the Saudi Arabian L1011 that burned at Jeddah about 15 years ago; the aircraft, needless to say, was competely destroyed.
The only non-crash fire that resulted in many deaths was the Saudi Arabian L1011 that burned at Jeddah about 15 years ago; the aircraft, needless to say, was competely destroyed.
I never understood that accident. The crew was either amazingly stupid (in which case one wonders how they managed to fly the plane in the first place), amazingly incapacitated (but from CO poisoning that quickly?), or up to something else. It baffles me how one could land a plane on fire sucessfully, then NOT order an immediate evacuation. I'm amazed the passengers didn't order it themselves - I sure as hell wouldn't stay on an on fire aircraft any longer than I could.
"Not really, acording to even Boeing. They used to have a .pdf file on their website titled "StatisticalSummary of Commercial Jet Airplane Accidents Worldwide Operations", I have the '99 version, there's a 2001 version up now. In the '99, the 747 was clearly 'in the center of the pack' with regard to 'hull loss acidents', though I don't know if that included nonfatal ones. As far as widebodies go, the DC-10/MD-11 is by far the worst. "
The Boeing data says no such thing. You're quoting out of context. You need to evaluate more carefully what you are reading.
The DC-10 is more hazardous than the 747, yes; the MD-11 is more hazardous in part because it is much more unforgiving to fly (ie much less tolerant of errors). The 747's accidents are by and large due either to sabotage or pilot error, but the 747 is not considered a difficult jet to fly (unlike the MD-11). So the airplane itself does not compound pilot error the way an MD-11 might. When you isolate those factors, the 747 is very safe, among the safest in the bunch.
"By modern standards, those planes were deathtraps."
And by propeller standards (1930's, 40's and '50's) the 707 was the safest plane in the air. The real deathtrap was the Comet, but even the later versions were much safer. From a 2002 perspective, the 707 was more hazardous, yes, but today no western air passenger service save the military flies them anymore, and the DC-8 is now a freighter for Airborne Express(I personaly think it should be retired...)
"I suspect the learning curve on jets was a lot steeper than most people anticipated (araly military ones had high accident rates, too)."
A brilliant deduction on your part. Military jets to this day have much higher accident rates than civilian jets, because military pilots fly a riskier envelope in a more unstable airplane. The airplane and engine are subject to more stress (throttle shoved back and forth from idle to afterburner; aircraft flown 500 feet off the deck); even though they're designed to take it, there's a limit. Maintenance is crucial.
The B-52 bomber and CH-46 Sea Knight helicopter are older than the pilots who fly them. Show me an airliner in regular service that old (I can show you one: a few French Caravelles (twin jet resembling a DC-9) are still flying, probably with certain African airline services. I'm told one shows up occasonally at Kennedy).
Military pilots often don't get as much flying time as commercial pilots do (due to budget issues) and that causes accidents due to lost skills. Not every pilot goes to Top Gun.
In the saftey terms, the 747 may be fingered in a number of these accidents, but I have to wonder if some of the planes implicated were older than the -400 models.
Generally speaking, I had a good experience with the Triple 7, since I rode it on my way to LHR at the end of July (though nature threw turbulence that made the ride like the Gowanus Expressway at 37K ft.) My experience was not as good with the DC-10 ten years ago - repeated engine problems coming out of LGW and upon landing at JFK. And as for the MD-11, the SwissAir #111 crash particularly traumatized me against McDonnell-Douglas. I mean, how does a plane turn itself off in midflight, as that plane did some years ago? (Rhetorical question)
The MD-11 was redesigned to be more fuel efficient than the DC-10 (and it got a glass cockpit so as to kiss the flight engineer goodbye). If I recall correctly, the total wing area was reduced slightly, and control retained by the use of advanced software - which unfortunately seems to have had some unresolved bugs.
Thus, when the Swissair pilot got into trouble, he found an airplane that, in contrast to the 747 or 737 (the 737 has the best low-speed handling of any airliner flying, which is good for safety and emergency landings), is tricky to fly and very unforgiving. No margin for error. Make mistakes, react suboptimally to an emergency, and a crash is likely with no leeway.
What I heard about the MD-11 is that it's a real good cargo aircraft but not really efficient enough to be a passenger aircraft. As for the control systems, MD-11's have their share of problems but conceivably a Boeing plane could do the same thing (indeed the TWA 747-200 that exploded off Long Island did something pretty similar). The wirings in that 747 was hanging and contributed towards the ignition of the fuel tank. If it had not ignited the fuel, that could have easily instead developed into a fire which burned the wires, which causes electricity to be cut out...
Boeing's controls are more robust in the case of a power failure, but still, suddenly having your glass cockpit go dark isn't an experience I'd like to have.
AEM7
In retrospect, you could argue that, with large 2-engine aircraft on the horizon, the MD-11's design was obsolescent to begin with.
The real breakthrough was in engines. Roll Royce' Trent series, Pratt and Whitney's 4000 series, and the GE-90 series are offering engines in the 115,000 pound thrust range (God that's obscene). The engines actually work somewhat like propeller engines - most of the thrust is that front fan driving the plane through the air. The turbine core only produces a small portion of the direct thrust. Mostly, it drives the fan.
And they are very efficient at cruise altitude.
Airbus needs to stop getting handouts from the bloody Frogs. Then Boening finally compete.
They have no incentives to stop getting handouts.
It's not so horrible, actually. Airbus jets utilize engines and avionics made in the US, as well as certain wing components; so a fair amount of money comes here for every jet they sell.
>>Assuming that the attitude toward US rail travel changes (along with funding), would Amtrak be able to turn a greater profit if it were to introduce high speed service on its two NYP-Chicago runs and two DC-CHI runs (I know, this requires the cooperation of the NS, CSX, and whatever other frieght lines own the trackage west of Pennsylvania)? <<
With the way Acela's going I doubt Amtrak would try to gamble with high speed train service again. Then again they might do a little more reaserch before going into the high speed court again.
>>Did the Acela units that began fouling up go thru Bombardier's Plattsburgh facility? <<
I think so, I cant recall
>>Who else may have the ability to construct the high speed trainsets that can survive US railroads, since it has been proven that the TGVs, ICEs, and other bullet trains of Western Europe have questionable capabilities outside their home evironments? <<
Maybe CSX, Metro North or LIRR might want to take a chance. Hey, we may see high speed service on the 7:-D
>>A choice: Boeing 737 vs. A320? Triple 7 vs. A340? 747 vs. the soon-to-be A380 (a full legnth double-decker jet that stands to make the fortress bombers of WWII look like a speck on the map)? <<
I admire Airbus ambition to build a double decker plane. The Irony is that big think carry's ledd people than a Boeing 747. I like the 777 but the A340 can and may give the 777 a run for its money. But alas Im putting my money on experience with the 777.
I was just reminded of this when I read a post by LouFromBrooklyn in the thread about the silvers on the 7.
About thirty years ago, my girlfriend and I were waiting for a southbound D at the 183rd Street station in The Bronx. It was about 4:00 A.M., and we were going to meet some friends at Brighton Beach for the morning. Given the hour, we waited near the center of the platform. When the train pulled into the station, it was a 4 car train, and the T/O pulled all the way up to the front of the station and stopped at the 10 car marker.....which resulted in everyone who was waiting near us (or farther toward the rear of the station) running like mad to the front of the station to board the train. The T/O did this at every station along the way, from The Bronx through Manhattan and all the way to Brighton Beach....stopped at the 10 car marker with a 4 car train.
Could there have been a good reason for this? If so, what would that reason be?
"It's my first day..."
"Ummm ... command? ... can you get this TSS out of my freaking cab?" :)
Outside of all the four car markers being stolen, it sounds like the motorman was remarkably stupid. The first order of the day for any road motorman is to ascertain the length of his train.
Hey someone stole 4 cars from my train!
He is probably related to a jerk motorman on the Los Angeles Red Line who takes perverse delight in stopping his 4-car train at either of the far ends of the platform, causing people to run after an open door and delaying the service. When I asked him why he did that, and noting his badge number at the same time, he told me it was none of my business. I told him it was my business both as a farepayer and as a taxpayer. I complained to the MTA twice and nothing ever came of it. Train operators need a little supervision, and I see no evidence of same.
>>> He is probably related to a jerk motorman on the Los Angeles Red Line who takes perverse delight in stopping his 4-car train at either of the far ends of the platform, causing people to run after an open door and delaying the service <<<
I noticed that at Wilshire/Western where a two car train pulled into the terminal station just far enough to platform the second car. This at a terminal, where the major street, Western, is located at the far end and the platform can hold at least six cars.
On the Blue Line, they intentionally stop at the far end of the platform so that passengers getting on and off southbound trains will not interfere with passengers getting on or off northbound trains on the extremely narrow center platforms.
Tom
Denver's light rail trains always pull up to the far end of the station regardless of train length so that the first set of doors will align with the ADA access ramp. I've seen operators cheat and stop short of the ramp if no one is waiting on the ramp and there are no handicapped customers on board.
When I was in Baltimore in May, at one point I found myself running across the tracks to catch the light rail. The wheelchair door was closest, so I ran up the ramp and pushed the button, but the door didn't open. I had to run back down the ramp and around to the next door. Is there some reason only disabled passengers should be able to use the wheelchair ramp? Is that a standard policy elsewhere or is it a Baltimorism? It's not like I was holding anybody up -- on the contrary, I was using the nearest door to save everybody time.
The motorman gets on the train at Bedford Park s/b. The 4 car train stopped at the same place as a 10 car train. The t/o who bought him the train from 205 never told him how many cars he had. That was a dumb crew. The motorman should have realized a problem with long station dwell time, the conductor should have told him that they had 4 cars, not 10 like the motorman thought.
A switchman was forced to make a trip after not being on the road for year.
A day person was forced to do the same and was PISSED.
Someone that was never broken in on a shorter train (people agrued this wen the G went from 6 to 4.
School car to the rescue.
Someone had complained about missing boards.
Sounds like you might have it nailed, Bill....but tell me, why would a 4 car train stop at the same place as a 10 car train at Bedford Park? Is the 4 marker all the way at the front of the station there? Even in that case, you'd think that the conductor would have been all over the motorman's case (I'm being polite) as soon as they stopped at Kingsbridge. No way the conductor could have seen a board outside his window!
Thanks for the reply....and thanks to you other guys for the laughs!
Maybe they had a platform conductor who'd run down the platform holding up the board to wherever the train stopped. :)
A conductor on the 6 line has told me that the job on the 6 line that uses a redbird has been eliminated for the next pick.
So if you're one of those people who would like to ride a redbird on the Lexington local one last time, hurry up, time is running out.
Friday the 13th should be the last time this redbird runs on the Lex local. After that, no more redbirds on the 6.
The ta always says stuff like that.I think if there is an emergency.U will see a redbird on the 6.
R143MAN
Visit amtrak modeling
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250/index.html
Another fifty Redbird carbodies 'deep sixed.' TA is pushing vendors to make their trains go...too many unecessary TTs...the Redbird reserve fleet is shrinking. CI Peter
The reason this particular redbird on the 6 is leaving the 6 is because it's actually a 5 train. It finishes the day by going to Dyre Ave on the 323 job. The redbird itself may not be going underwater, but it won't be on the 6 line.
At last, my line is all Japanese!
All but about 30 cars which are Bombardier. I believe those cars are 1716-1720, 1736-1745, 1761-1765, 1786-1790 and I forget the other set-I think it was a 17xx series pair-1766-1770? Anybody know? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
#1740 6 Lexington Ave Local
Foiled again!!!
Widecab posted it in the past two weeks, 1776 is still in reserve at Westchester so the missing set I think is 1770 to 1790. I would still check the archives though.
If it goes R142, it's Bombajunk multi-TT assembled in Plattsburgh,NY, so enjoy the breaks. R142A is Kawasaki and your luck just might be slightly better. What we do in inspection is find and repair as many defects as humanly can be found...TTs relate directly to the manufacurer and vendors. CI Peter
What do you mean by TT?
Train
Trouble
David
Thats right! There where a few jobs that where changed. 336 use to do the put in at Brooklyn Bridge and 323 would take it to Dyre and both are changed. The No.5 job that did the Layup seemed to have been cut because the No.5 came up short 1 job.
I was just watching MSNBC (at 5:20) and in the nest few minutes they will have a report on the subway's "Love Train". It showed footage of redbirds, but I have no idea what it's about. For those near a TV and interested......
thanks! heading down to the tv!
Thanks for the heads up! I caught it just in time. I saw video of lovely redbirds and ok R-46's!
I'm sure they will repeat it at other times of the day, so if anyone needs to watch the news...
Well either MSNBC reads SubTalk and stole someone's idea here, or the person who started the "Single"s Train" thread here heard about this from some other source. It was about the "Single's Train" idea, that singles should congregate in the first car of any train on any line and it has become an informal "place to meet".
See now, the railfan window is not just for railfans anymore, and you can kill two birds with one stone "riding the window". If anyone is "riding the window" and a pretty young lady walks in, she just may have this in mind.....I hope singles here will then say, "Screw the window" and get on with the important things.......
Cheers to that!
If there's dragon clips around then I will "look away" from the window. Best trains for meeting ladies, the N,W,and 7. The chance of seeing ladies with dragon clips is highest there.
"Main street Flushing, last stop. Watch out for the dragon clips"
Hoo boy ... well, looks like it's time for everyone to crawl back into school car and brush up on other than head end operation. :)
>>> I hope singles here will then say, "Screw the window" and get on with the important things....... <<<
In this situation, anyone thinking about screwing the window definitely has the wrong priorities, and is a first class foamer. :-)
Tom
Well, hopefully it'll be an interesting story. After nearly ten straight minutes of commercials and NO news, went back to Thomas and the Magic Railroad on Starz. :)
Get a DVR.
I haven't watched a commercial in years.
Watching MSNBC is pure torment, I never went back. So what did that story turn out to be? MSNBC finally catching up with the story everybody else did days earlier as usual about "swinging singles hanging out at the foamer glass?" Gotta admire a network whose idea of a morning news show is IMUS. :)
Caught a Weeks barge this morning at 207th with a tug. Sorriest looking batch of Redbirds I ever saw...no glossy red paint. Gauranteed this batch will 'bing-bong' hitting the ocean floor. Nothing like engaging AC on a Redbird after walking 'troubles' on a ten car trainset. CI Peter
See ya later redbirds :(
I saw this in the bibliography of this site. It's a self-published book with three volumes so far, written by a Mr. Coppola. It says his goal "is to give a detailed account of the present condition of the entire NYC rapid transit system"
Does anyone own this book or has anyone seen it? I think I read about this in a NYT article a couple years ago. I'd like to know more about it (like how to get a copy, if it's worth reading). If anyone has it please let me know.
David
I own Vol 2 which covers BMT's Elevated lines. Mr. Coppola -- who recently changed his name officially to Copp -- has done an incredible job of highlighting the detailing and asthetics of the el structures that made the BMT (and BRT before that) famous.
Be warned: his writing style, while folksy, could put die-hard railfans (of the hardware type) asleep...however, those with an interest in the historical aspects of rapid transit will appreciate the amount of research covered by Phil Copp.
I believe the books are only available directly from the author, and are numbered, limited editions (and self-published). The Volume I have is the size of the Brooklyn phone directory! (he double-spaces and used an IBM Selectric to write the book).
I consider myself fortunate to own all three volumes. It is obviously a labor of love. It was self-published by the author in a very limited edition. It is illustrated exclusively by the author's drawings. The focus is on the infrastructure of the system (versus car equipment), with emphasis on historical stations. The author is reportedly working on a fourth volume.
I bought two volumes at the Municipal Art Society's bookstore on Madison Avenue and found the third on eBay. If you find any of the volumes, consider yourself lucky, and pay whatever you have to.
I have been told that there will be a complete set offered for sale, as a complete set only, by a vendor at the show in King of Prussia on 21 September. I have confirmed this information with the vendor (who is not a SubTalker, as far as I know) but I have been asked not to reveal their identity, as they do not want to be contacted in advance of the show by potential buyers, and I will honor their request, so don't ask me who it is! I do not know the price but I have been told that the volumes are in pristine condition. And no, I am not a potential buyer... the books are quite nice but on my budget I'll have to pass.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I also have the whole set - still sitting in the cardboard boxes they came in. I purchased the first two volumes from the Municipal Arts Society bookstore and the third directly from the author.
Unless my memory has gone BIE, the current "complete set" is 4 volumes in 5 books - #1 is two books and the rest are one book, and #4 is about the H&M/PATH (along with the usual updates and corrections to earlier volumes). I think the next piece will be a vastly revised edition of #1.
Not sure if this subject was approached before, but while shooting Redbirds on the (7) today I noticed a few cars in the yard with large green decals on their sides. There were 4 decals on each side of the cars. Inside the green decal was the numeral "7" in white. I first noticed this on two cars laid up in two different trains. Then I spotted two workers on ladders applying yet more of these decals to other cars. Anyone know what these represent?
jrc
They're tennis balls!
I guess they're so anyone going to the US Open from Queensboro Plaza gets on the right train??
Tennis Balls! Excellent marketing gimmick. I would never have thunk.
Thanx,
jrc
I ve noticed them today as well. It seems the G E redbirds are getting them. Theres none on the silver 7s yet. Im surprised they didnt wrap the ends of the cars like they did to 2 cars for the world series 2 years ago.
The wrap effect would be nice. Even nicer to keep the ends facing "outward" so all could see them!
jrc
Perhaps they could put decals with a baseball for the Mets? Oh wait, no one wants to see them these days ...
Well, at least they took two out of three from the Rockies this weekend in Denver. Too little, too late. Didn't go to Coors Field, though; I have no desire to go there.
i dunno about All Acelas yet, but i was on the 545 at rosedale station(520 from Far Rock) and transfered to a EXPRESS to NY at jamaica. the train was about to enter line 4. when i looked thru sunnyside yard, THE USUAL ACELA i see every morning, WAS MISSING? im like whoa where is it? the brakeman i know told me its right there! i look on line 2, and sure enuf 2020 has his foglights on, and it says TO D.C!!!! train looked great and sure enuf, i went on track 12, and it pulled in! the Amntrak crews seemed very happy expecially the engineer.
anyone care to explain or comment?
i sure grinned all the way to the 646 to Brewster North from Grand Central
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
| | | | |
Not fully though. Check AMTRAK's website for details. (www.amtrak.com)
My wife and I had tickets on AE train 2255 from Boston to Philly leaving at 1 PM Saturday (yesterday). When we arrived at BOS in the morning I asked whether the AE equipment would be used, because my wife wanted to take an earlier train if not. The AE trainset was scheduled to cover the schedule from New York to Washington, with NO REPLACEMENT out of BOS at 1 PM. We made our inquiry at 9:15 and the very helpful, accommodating, and pleasant Amtrak personnel credited the AE fare to my account, charged conventional fare, printed the tickets, and got us onto train 161 which left on time at 9:30.
I have noticed on the Redbirds about 4 weeks ago that most of the rollsigns that I saw on the trains were signed up as 111 St. - Corona. I checked back on the MTA site back then and there are no diversions for them to stop there.
Just a workers' malfunction?
My guess is when they stop there, the train proceeds directly to Corona Yards. The same goes for trains going to Willets Point. Whenever a local stops there, that's the final stop and everyone gets off to wait for an express (given this is a weekday, of course). However, this kind of operation doesn't deem to be on the MTA's website.
No, most locals run through to Main, but some don't. Perhaps Pete saw those locals -- or saw trains incorrectly signed as those locals.
I was referring to that! The locals that don't always make it to Main!
No problem. I thought you were saying that no locals on weekdays went to Main, when in fact most do.
Ok, it's cool then. ;)
In the AM peak some #7 locals are "put-ins" from Corona Yard with 111th as the first revenue stop. In the PM peak some #7 locals terminate at Willets Point/Shea. These are not really diversions, just short turns. Any customer who wants to go to Main Street just needs to wait at Willets Point/Shea for the next through train.
In the AM peak some #7 locals are "put-ins" from Corona Yard with 111th as the first revenue stop. In the PM peak some #7 locals terminate at Willets Point/Shea. These are not really diversions, just short turns. Any customer who wants to go to Main Street just needs to wait at Willets Point/Shea for the next through train.
On certain older redbirds on the 7 line, the cranks to turn the roll signs are permanently inserted into the turn thingy. It's possible that a passenger just went over to it and turned it to whatever he/she wanted it to say.
Interesting....I've never seen a 7 signed as 111th Street, but on several occasions I have been on trains signed as Main Street, only to be evicted at 111th Street because the train was being sent into the yard.
Are there any grade crossings in the subway? We were going to railfan the L when a service advisory cut it back to ENY. We have railfanned the NYC Subway 4 or 5 times and there are still a lot of stations not explored yet. Are there any interesting things to see in certain areas?
One side note:
Does anyone know how the traffic goes on the Hell Gate Bridge? I would like to get some pictures if I can.
The last grade crossing on the NYC Subway used to be at E105 St on the L line. That has been gone since about 1969. Someone mentioned a grade crossing in the Bronx. But that is in an IRT yard.
Hell Gate Bridge handles mostly Amtrak passenger and NY and A Freight traffic.
NY&Atlantic does NOT operate over Hells Gate, that is CSX freights only. CSX (Conrail) interchanges with NY&A.
CSX does, but CP Rail also runs over Hell Gate.
why does everyone forget the season P&W stone train?
if you want photos - here's a quick guide. amtrak goes over generally once every hour or 2 during the day. get the boston-NYC schedule, round off 20 minutes or so, and you'll have a rough estimate whent he trains are coming (assuming they are on schedule).
freight:
CSX makes a round trip on weekday mornings. generally with 2 SD40s.
CP: comes in in the middle of the night (3,4,5am?) and leaves around 5:30 on m,w,and friday evenings.
P&W: in in the middle of the night, monday/tuesdayish, generally returns to CT friday mornings around 9-10am... only during warm months (approx april to sept. october - i think they went all the way into nov. last year though)
Right, Providence and Worchester makes the trap rock deliveries down into Fresh Pond for local distribution to other lines via NY&A > NYCH then to NJ for further distribution.
CP runs over Hell Gate, Lou. That's how they're able to interchange with NY&A.
I never said CP didn't run over HellGate, the poster said NY&A ran over the bridge, which they don't.
I said CSX,nee Conrail, you guys posted the other two (plus Slamtrak).
We have railfanned the NYC Subway 4 or 5 times and there are still a lot of stations not explored yet. Are there any interesting things to see in certain areas?
Of course. What are your interests and which parts of the system haven't you seen yet (or have you seen yet, whichever is easier for you to answer).
I finally saw my last two missing stations in April, with TimK and Alex L. (I've since been back there twice.)
Where's the location of your photo?
In fact, we have rode every single line of the subway, except the G, diamond Q, the M, and all of the shuttles I haven't been on.
besides the skip-stop service 9 and Z lines which follow the same lines as their "parent" line with the odd B train,
Normally when we railfan, we don't ride from end to end because it is time-consuming. Take from where we start (34th St. Penn Station) it is in the middle of everything.
Here is a compiled list of all stations I have NOT explored yet (fill me in on the rest of the interesting info):
Line Areas Not Explored
1 East of Franklin Av.
2 North of Allerton Av.
3 North of 135th St.
4 Area in conjunction with the 1 and 2 in Brooklyn
5 North of E. 180th St.
6 North of 125th St.
7 Main St. - Flushing
A East of Rockaway Blvd. (not south)
F East of Van Wyck Blvd.
G Entire Line
L Past Broadway- ENY
M Entire Line
N North of Queensboro Plaza and south of Atlantic Av.
Dia. Q Conjuncting lines not yet explored
R South of Atlantic Av.
S All shuttles not explored
W Conjuncting with N in Queens and south of Pacific St.
How should I start the next time I go railfanning?
Suggestions would be helpful.
Thank You.
That photo was of a 3 train at 148th Street-Lenox Terminal.
Here are my comments:
1 East of Franklin Av.
Worth seeing, but I wouldn't but it at the very top. Between Franklin and Utica it runs in a two-level configuration, similar to the A/B/C/D under Central Park West. Past Utica it emerges to a three-track el (with room for a middle track). Near Junius it crosses an LIRR freight line and the L.
2 North of Allerton Av.
If you've seen the other Bronx els, this one isn't terribly different. There's a yard near the north end.
3 North of 135th St.
Unique. You might as well see it -- it's a short ride. Keep in mind that if you're using a pay-per-ride card, you won't be able to change directions at 135th without paying a second fare -- you have to go all the way to the island platform at 110th to turn around for free.
4 Area in conjunction with the 1 and 2 in Brooklyn
It's an interesting express run, but you probably won't see much. I think I once saw a Q train, but I may have been imagining it (the IRT and BMT share an alignment for part of this express run, but I don't know if it's possible to see a BMT train from the IRT express tracks).
5 North of E. 180th St.
Don't miss it. Unique. Relaxing, too.
6 North of 125th St.
It's the only one of the Bronx IRT lines to have a long string of underground stations, including an express stop. The train emerges at Whitlock and then crosses the Bronx River. Past that, there isn't much to see.
7 Main St. - Flushing
Just the one station? Don't go out of your way.
A East of Rockaway Blvd. (not south)
The Lefferts branch? Typical el, with high headways to boot. Don't bother.
F East of Van Wyck Blvd.
Typical IND, though with unique dressing at the terminal. It's only interesting in that it's overbuilt for what runs there now.
G Entire Line
Typical IND, again, but worth seeing. There's an extra track through Bedford-Nostrand.
L Past Broadway- ENY
Don't miss it.
M Entire Line
North of Myrtle it's on a unique el. The underwater junction south of Broad is worth seeing but don't make a special trip. The rest is all covered by other lines.
N North of Queensboro Plaza and south of Atlantic Av.
I enjoy the Astoria el, but I'm not sure why -- maybe because it's so close to Manhattan. The Sea Beach is one of my favorites; it seems like everyone here either loves it or hates it. The best part of the Sea Beach ride is through the middle of the yard between 86th and Stillwell. Unfortunately, the N won't take you there for the next few years, but if you're lucky you'll catch a GO (on the N or W) that will send trains through that section.
Dia. Q Conjuncting lines not yet explored
I'm not sure what you mean here.
R South of Atlantic Av.
There is some interesting stuff. Read the line-by-line descriptions elsewhere on this site.
S All shuttles not explored
The 42nd Street and Franklin shuttles are interesting for historical reasons. Don't bother with the others.
W Conjuncting with N in Queens and south of Pacific St.
I find the W south of 36th dreadfully boring -- it just seems to drag on forever. I do enjoy looking out the windows at the storefronts, and the structure itself has interesting ornamentation (as viewed from the street). The complicated interlocking around 9th Avenue is exciting (better to use an M here so you can look out the front) and the end of the line skirts the edge of Coney Island Yard.
Dia. Q Conjuncting lines not yet explored
I'm not sure what you mean here.
I just mean that the diamond Q runs through the lines that I have already mentioned that I haven't explored yet.
Thank you for the much needed information!
How is this done with only two tracks, and what stops do expresses skip?
It's done by schedule. Eastbound (Tottenville) express trains skip all stops between St. George and Great Kills. Westbound trains skip different stops, depending on origin point and the schedule.
-Hank
There are AM express trains as well, one train makes only 3 stops then goes to St. George. All done on one track.
There used to be a PM express from Tottenville to St. George, no stops around 5:30pm as an equipment move but it ran revenue if people got on at Tottenville. It is no longer on the passanger schedule though, that was a fun trip.
Sat. August 24th and Sunday August 25th 10AM to 4PM
Featuring freight railroading on Long Island and recognizing the 5th anniversary of the New York and Atlantic Railway.
* Visiting locomotives and rolling stock
* Special exhibits and displays on the history of freight railroading and the companies that hauled it.
* A train show featuring memorabilia, model trains and non profit organizations from across Long Island.
* Live entertainment
* Operating garden railroad and O gauge layouts
* Fun and games for kids
* Much,much more !
Admission: Adults $4.00, Children $2.00, under 5 Free.
How to get there
By car: LIE (495) to Exit 72 (Route 25). Stay on Route 25 for 3 miles and bear left at Court St. Festival Parking is on Court St. in the Municipal parking lot. Walk east on Court St. a halk a block to Griffing Ave.and make a left. The museum is across the tracks on the right.
By LIRR: 9:14AM Ronkonkoma train from Penn Station, 9:12AM train from Brooklyn. CHANGE AT RONKONKOMA for the Greenport "scoot". Festival is at Riverhead station. ETA Riverhead 11:23AM.
Westbound train, 6:56PM from Riverhead. CHANGE AT RONKONKOMA for MU train to Penn Station, change at Jamaica for Brooklyn. ETA Penn Sta. 9:05PM, Brooklyn 9:13PM.
Imformation compiled from RR Museum of Long Island's notice handbill.
For info call (631) 727-7920
e-mail Jayrmli@optonline.net
BMTman and myself are meeting in Commack for breakfast tomorrow morning and then will carpool out there. ETA 10:30AM. Anyother Sub-talkers planning on attending?
For those of you with young children there is the Atlantis Marine World Aquarium nearby in the town. Also Riverhead Raceway and Tanger Outlet mall are also nearby.
I hope to be there, too, on Sunday.
You better show up Bob -- I'm bringing an item I KNOW you'd like to take a look at!
Oh no! Not that! - My wife may be coming along, too :-)
LOL!!! ;-)
You have a sick mind, Bob. Don't lose it!
I may try and make it out there. My son is 2+4 mos. -- seems like a good time to corrupt him into railfanism. Plus, Mrs. Charles G needs a day off.
CG
I wanted to come, but it looks like I won't be able to make it. It's too bad, as I would like to meet some of the people here. It would be nice to match the faces with the names. Oh well, I'll make a "subtalk" field trip or something one day.
I will be going on Sunday.
-Harry
The Other Side of the Tracks- Over 1900 NYC Subway Photos
How was the festival today/this weekend? What was on display? sorry I couldnt make it.
Yes, I am planning this well in advanced. I love winter, I love the snow, and I've heard that the ride between J.F.K and Far Rockaway after a nice snow fall is very beautiful. So I am going to take a ride this winter, hopefully on the day we plan it, it will be after a nice snowfall. I wont chose a date, it will take place during Christmas Break so that people can visit.
This is my plan so far...
Get on a R-32 A train at J.F.k station, then ride it over to broad channel, then get off to take photos, then get on the next A train any direction, tghen get off and go back, taking more photos, then get off at broad channel and walk along the main street and take photos, then take the A train to Far Rockaway then eat a dinner out there, then go back and look outside, hopefully it will be snowing. I want to defintly enjoy the ride, and maybe some of you want to come along and enjoy the ride, yes it is cold, yes it is far, but the pictures and views are unique and quite special to NYC and you're riding on the subway most of the time. So you'll be warm. So hey might as well come along and take alot of photos.
Christopher J. Rivera
Wow, sounds like a fun trip. Wish I could join you but I can't. I want to ride to both ends of the Rockaway line sometime and get off at some of the stations, take some pictures. I rode to the first stop past the y on each side but that was the farthest I've gotten (I wanted to ride both sides of the y). There was too much of a wait between trains on that line so I didn't ever have time to ride it more. And the fact that it takes an hour to get out there. Great ride though. Hope you have fun.
David
Sounds like a great trip. It is very pretty there.
I did the rockaway section this summer and it is beautiful even with no snow. I can't wait to see it with snow on the ground (or water). Count me in
I can't say for sure until you come up with a date (and I'm afraid I don't see snow in the forecast yet), but I'd like to come. If it's on a Sunday, I probably can. A weekday, possibly. A Saturday, definitely not.
"A Saturday, definitely not."
It would be a long walk for you, wouldn't it? Besides, the TA wouldn't let you trot on the tracks, even if you promised to obey the signals.
:0)
Riding the train probably wouldn't be a technical problem as long as it doesn't make any stops just for me. But paying the fare would be a definite problem. And I wouldn't be able to take pictures, so what's the point?
Well, someone else could pay your fare, and is it really work to take a picture? I define that as "fun". Then again, I'm Reform...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not work, but it is melacha, probably on a number of grounds. Before I can even think about taking a picture, I have to carry the camera with me, and I don't think there's an eruv crossing Jamaica Bay.
But if you want to pay my fare on Sunday, be my guest.
Totally off topic, but a quick question, I'm curious. I'm not Jewish, so forgive me for being ignorant, but I was suprised that you weren't allowed to take a photo on Saturdays (I do understand the Orthodox Jews can not do any kind of work on Saturdays). You said it's not work, but melacha on a number of grounds. What does that mean?
There are 39 broad categories of Biblically forbidden labors on the Sabbath. (The 39 prototypes are various sorts of creative acts used in the construction of the Tabernacle.) A forbidden labor is known as a melacha, often mistranslated as 'work,' leading to the common misconception (among Jews and non-Jews alike) that what's prohibited is any activity that's hard to do, or that earns a paycheck, or something like that. But that's not the case -- carrying a table from one room to another is permissible (since carrying a table between rooms doesn't fit into any of the 39 categories), while striking a match is strictly forbidden (it's even listed explicitly in the Bible, unlike most of the other categories).
So what could possibly be wrong with taking a picture? For starters, my camera operates on electricity, and the activation of any sort of electric device is prohibited (the reason isn't so clear; I think most contemporary rabbinic authorities consider it a rabbinic enactment, which means it's still prohibited but there may be room for leniencies in special cases). According to Maimonides, heating a metal to the point of glowing is considered lighting a fire, while other early authorities consider it cooking (or did I get that backwards? I never remember) -- Biblically prohibited in either case. Does a camera flash have a filament? I think it does, so using the flash would be out on this count (not that I should be using the flash anyway in the subway). Writing is prohibited, and taking a picture might be considered writing even though what's written is invisible until the film is developed. The field is complex enough that I can't say for sure what the definite problems are (aside from the general electricity ban), but they're out there.
I also mentioned the word eruv. To make a very long story short, carrying any object, light or heavy, more than four cubits in a public domain is prohibited on the Sabbath. In some cases, a boundary known as an eruv surrounding a space can turn that space into a quasi-private domain for the purposes of this law (and only for the purposes of this law). Some neighborhoods with large Orthodox communities have eruvim, and some even claim that the entire island of Manhattan is inside an eruv, but I highly doubt there's an eruv across Jamaica Bay -- so regardless of whether I can use my camera, I can't even bring it with me.
Whoa, That's pretty complicated!
Wow, I had no idea it was so strict. Catholicism seems relatively simple next to that. It all depends on what you are brought up on. I guess we never will see posts here from you Friday Evenings to Saturdays.... (I also assume you hope there are never any "Saturday only" extremely rare GO's!)
Oh, it is quite complicated, no question about that. If you see any posts from me between Friday evening and Saturday evening, either I'm posting from another time zone or I'm doing something I shouldn't be doing. The only GO's I missed because of it were the V test run last September and the 7 10-car rush hour test a few months ago. If the GO extends to Saturday night, I can catch it then, and most Saturday GO's run on Sunday as well (at least sometimes if not every week).
I won't be able to ride the first weekend W to Manhattan on September 8 since that's Rosh Hashanah. (With a handful of exceptions dealing with food preparation, the Sabbath restrictions all apply on the Biblical holidays.) I will be able to attend the South Ferry reopening (assuming it indeed takes place at midnight on September 15), but I probably shouldn't stay up too late since Yom Kippur starts the following evening and I don't want to accidentally sleep through my last chance to eat or drink for 25 hours.
So??? If my Church can arrange for Seder participation why can't you
get Biblically approved 'Kosher take out.' Just think about Jewish Observers who have served in the last sixty years: 'C-rats, K-rats, LURPS.' The obligations to be called and serve are recognised by the Lord everyday...being able to do for others as a commitment is a matter of Faith. CI Peter
I'm afraid that, aside from matters of life and death, the laws of the Sabbath apply no matter what. That still leaves six days of the week for railfanning. Look at it this way: if not for the Sabbath, you'd be reading my posts here every single day of the week.
If the train enters service before Shabbat begins, it isn't really a problem, is it? Also, if someone else swipes for you, is turning the turnstile allowed?
I am not Orthodox and will ride the subway on Saturdays.
If the train enters service before Shabbat begins, it isn't really a problem, is it?
I don't think it matters when the train enters service, since it'll enter service whether or not I'm there to ride it. I don't think riding a subway train would technically be a problem. Those who hold that riding an elevator is problematic, even if a non-Jew happens to be going to the same floor at the same time, would presumably disagree; I think their argument is that the added weight of an additional person changes the force exerted by the motor.
There is actually a little-known law about how far one may travel (through what would otherwise be permissible means -- walking, say) beyond the end of a settled area. I don't know the distance offhand (the issue rarely comes up in practice) but Jamaica Bay may be wide enough to trigger this law. (OTOH, the presence of Broad Channel may solve the problem.)
Also, if someone else swipes for you, is turning the turnstile allowed?
That's a pretty complicated question, believe it or not. My intent is merely to turn the arms so I can enter (or exit) fare control. In doing so, I might be inadvertently fiddling with something electrical -- I don't know the details of what happens when a turnstile is turned. Whether that's a problem depends on the nature of the inadvertent prohibition (Biblical or rabbinic) and possibly on whether this is a special case (say I have a minor illness and I'm going to see my doctor -- if it were a life-threatening illness, of course, I'd use whatever means necessary to get there). In short, I don't know. (Asking the agent to release the service gate might also be problematic.)
I actually brought this up at the dinner table (with Conservative non-railfan Jews) and we concluded that provided someone else swiped your MetroCard or their own (put the MetroCard in your pocket and you aren't carrying it presumebly), that the action of entering fare control would be permitted. We also decided that provided the train was in service during Friday's rush hour, remained in service during the midnight hours, and continued into Saturday morning, you could ride it, the same way if you start your car or leave lights on before Shabbat, you could finish driving to your destination or leave the lights on. The third rail would probably be powered throughout, so that wouldn't be a problem. If it wasn't, a GO would be in effect and you wouldn't be able to ride the subway then anyway for other reasons. There are no escalators or stairs involved in the trip since there are hardly any to begin with.
I don't know what your personal guidelines are but this is the conclusion I have come to based on my own guidelines.
It's close to the conclusion I reach, except I don't see why it matters how long the train has been in service.
I also don't see why you could continue driving. By stepping on the gas, you're lighting fires. It doesn't matter when the car started running. (Yes, I know the Conservative movement has a permissive driving ruling. I'm ignoring it for the time being since I'm afraid I can't see how it fits into the broader system.)
As for leaving the lights on, you're not doing anything -- you turned them on and now they remain on without your help. This hinges on one of the classical disputes between Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel: Beit Shammai said that your possessions have to rest as well as you, while Beit Hillel said that you don't have to worry about your possessions. As in most cases, the law follows the position of Beit Hillel. That might apply to a car on autopilot but it doesn't apply if you actively control it.
I had two friends in grad school, twin brothers, who were Orthodox. They asked a classmate, a Jamaican, if he wanted to watch a football game at their apartment on a particular Saturday. He said sure.
He showed up to their apartment about 5 minutes after kickoff. The two of them were sitting on the couch, staring at a turned-off TV. He asked how come they weren't watching the game. They said they were waiting for him to arrive to turn the TV on, because they could not.
I guess it's okay to passively receive entertainment as long as you don't actively do that which is necessary to obtain it.
By the way....I went to Reform Temple Beth-Ohr, on the corner of Newkirk and Ocean Avs, which my grandmothers and their friends used to call "the church."
"He showed up to their apartment about 5 minutes after kickoff. The two of them were sitting on the couch, staring at a turned-off TV. He asked how come they weren't watching the game. They said they were waiting for him to arrive to turn the TV on, because they could not."
They could have installed a timer.
Oy! Reminds me of a story ...
How Many Christians Does It Take to Change a Light Bulb?
Charismatics: Only one. Hands are already in the air.
Pentecostals: Ten. One to change the bulb, and nine to pray against the spirit of darkness.
Presbyterians: None. Lights will go on and off at predestined times. Roman Catholic and Orthodox: None. Only candles are used.
Baptists: At least 15. One to change the light bulb, and three committees to approve the change and decide who brings the potato salad.
Youth Directors: No one knows. No youth director has ever lasted long enough for a light bulb to need changing.
Episcopalians: Eight. One to call the electrician, and seven to say how much they liked the old one better.
Unitarians: We choose not to make a statement either in favor of or against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey you have found that light bulbs work for you, that is fine. You are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your personal relationship with your light bulb, and present it next month at our annual light bulb Sunday service, in which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, three-way, long-life and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence
Methodists: Undetermined. Whether your light is bright, dull, or completely out, you are loved. Churchwide lighting service is planned for Sunday, August 19. Bring bulb of your choice and a covered dish.
Nazarene: Six. One woman to replace the bulb while five men review church lighting policy.
Lutherans: None. Lutherans don't believe in change.
Amish: What's a light bulb?
Very cute.
I know it's going to honk off the apostles, but all of that is the God's honest truth. Ain't diddle there for ME to spin. We really ARE rudderless and that's the scary part. I'd toot for an RCI, but there just aren't enough hammers. :)
"That's a pretty complicated question, believe it or not. My intent is merely to turn the arms so I can enter (or exit) fare control. In doing so, I might be inadvertently fiddling with something electrical"
Actually, you may have a more basic problem. Since you must not allow someone else to facilitate a sin for you, you might not be able to ride anyway. Why? Another person paid for you specifically to allow you to circumvent the law you were supposed to observe.
Now, if you had an unlimited MetroCard (you were already paid up anyway) then another person could swipe it for you and you could enter.
Or not - obviously you are the final arbiter of your own interpretation of Jewish law.
PS I am Jewish but agnostic in philosophy...
Actually, you may have a more basic problem. Since you must not allow someone else to facilitate a sin for you, you might not be able to ride anyway. Why? Another person paid for you specifically to allow you to circumvent the law you were supposed to observe.
Ah, but there's nothing (strictly) wrong with circumventing the law -- just with violating it. A non-Jew is perfectly permitted to pay the fare, and the TA has no rule against one person paying the fare for a friend with a pay-per-ride card.
OTOH, in most cases, I'm rabbinically prohibited from benefitting from a non-Jew's act done specifically for me if I wouldn't have been allowed to do the same act myself.
Guess I'll have to stay home.
Wow, so if you were the only one to get off at a particular station that would be a problem?
It seems like you would be able to take public transportation for this senario, but if you lived too far to go worship on Saturday, and there was no public transportation between your home and there, I assume you are not able to drive a car there either. That could be a problem. I guess anyone who follows this to the letter could not put themselves in that sort of a situation.
Wow, so if you were the only one to get off at a particular station that would be a problem?
No, since the train would stop there anyway.
It seems like you would be able to take public transportation for this senario, but if you lived too far to go worship on Saturday, and there was no public transportation between your home and there, I assume you are not able to drive a car there either. That could be a problem. I guess anyone who follows this to the letter could not put themselves in that sort of a situation.
Actually, although it's nice to pray in a communal setting, there's nothing wrong with praying privately. If I couldn't walk to shul (synagogue), I'd daven (pray) at home or wherever I happened to be.
Driving a standard car is definitely out, thanks to the internal combustion engine -- just think about all those fires I'd be lighting just by stepping on the gas. And then when I step on the brake, the filament in the brake light glows (or do brake lights not have filaments?). Oy.
As a practical matter, public transportation is also out. I was just toying with the theoretical idea.
Think of it this way: it forces communities to develop. Everybody who wants to daven in a particular shul has to live near it.
What about cooking ? Do you have to pre prepare food before saturday?
Yes. The Jewish Calendar is actually designed so that there are very few instances where there are more than two days of holidays or a combination of Shabbat and a holiday so that food can be prepared. A very simple example is this:
Yom Kippur can only fall on Monday (as it does this year), Wednesday, Thursday, or Saturday. It can not fall on Friday since that would mean food for Friday night (start of Shabbat) could not be prepared. It can not fall on Sunday because the food to be eaten before the fast could not be prepared on Shabbat. It can not fall on Tuesday since that would mean Passover would fall when similar issues would arise.
An interesting fact: At least one holiday will fall on Shabbat outside of Israel each Jewish calendar year. This year (5763), Rosh Hashannah, Sukkot, Shemini Atzeret, and Shavuot all fall on Saturdays.
Hope this helps some.
Your information was helpful, Thanks! I never realized Jewish law/ holidays were this complex and strict.
Actually, three-day marathons aren't a big deal, since cooking is permitted on Yom Tov, although they can be tedious. (Generally it's only permitted for that same day, but an eruv tavshilin allows preparation on Friday for the next day.) Yom Kippur is a special case -- cooking isn't permitted (and who would want to, anyway?), so it's never on Friday. We want to eat hot food before Yom Kippur, so it's never on Sunday. (Having it on Sunday would presumably also cause problems with Kol Nidre.) As for Tuesday, I think the reason is that we want Hoshana Rabba to fall on a weekday, although I don't see why that's so crucial. (Purim, too, but walled cities like Jerusalem still have a problem.)
Why would having Kol Nidre on a Sunday cause problems? The rest I understand, but that one I can't figure out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Kol Nidre is specifically started before sunset, since it's a sort of quasi-legal ceremony that's only performed on weekdays. (I know one rabbi who argued this wasn't necessary, but it's the universal custom as far as I've seen.) If Yom Kippur is on Sunday, we'd have to say Kol Nidre a day early for it to be on a weekday.
I don't know if this reasoning is correct. It occurred to me while I was typing my earlier post; I haven't asked anyone or looked in any halachic sources. Don't treat this as practical advice.
It is either Hoshannah Rabbah or Passover that makes Tuesday impossible, I forget which. I have heard both and I have not spent the time studying how the calendar works to find the right answer.
Indeed we do! Fridays can get really hectic with all the preparations (although the recent proliferation of kosher take-out has made life a bit easier). Keeping food warm is fine, and in certain cases (the law here gets really complicated) reheating cooked food is also fine. One dish traditionally served for Sabbath lunch, called cholent, is a meat-beans-barley-potato stew put on the stove (or in the oven or in the crockpot) Friday afternoon and left untouched all night and morning.
Wow! It must be tough avoiding electricity and fire on Sabbath. Is Sabbath every Saturday, or like the first Saturday of the month? Also, what do you do on saturdays? Prayer, lounge around with the family?
The Sabbath starts Friday evening just before sunset and lasts about 25 hours. Yes, it comes every week.
My usual routine goes something like this. Go to synagogue for the evening service, which lasts about an hour. Eat dinner. Depending on how sleepy I am, possibly hang out with family or friends, read, or go straight to sleep. The morning service takes about 2-3 hours at most synagogues. Then comes lunch. Sleep is a good next step (the cholent has a sedative effect), or if the weather's nice I'll go for a walk. Then it's back to synagogue for the afternoon service (only about 20 minutes), followed by a small meal, followed by the evening service and "havdalah" (literally separation, havdalah is the brief ceremony separating the Sabbath from the rest of the week). Then the computer goes on and I start catching up on SubTalk.
Agreed.
You would not be able to ride London's Jubilee Line, unless someone else punched the button for the door to open.
The doors opened automatically for all LU trains I was on when I was just there...
So they must have changed the arrangement. I visited London in 2000...
When I was last there (around 1988), I had to push buttons only on the District line -- but I think that feature is only enabled in the winter. I take it the feature's expanded to other lines since, but it may still be disabled in the summer. (I don't remember -- are the trains air conditioned?)
The trains are not air conditioned. I saw the buttons for the manual opening of the doors on the District, Jubilee, Central, and Northern lines but it was not in use on any of them. If you read my really long trip report, you will see that I hardly ever went outside of zone 1. I had surmised that it was only used on the outer reaches of the system. It did appear to be in use on the DLR.
The buttons on the District line (well inside zone 1) were in use the winter I was in London. I think they're turned off entirely in the summer.
And I wouldn't be able to take pictures, so what's the point?
I understand the other prohibitions, but you don't think that riding a train is interesting unless you can photograph things? So when you're "railfanning" you're not really railfanning, instead you just begrudgingly escort your camera so it can railfan?
Since people have a habit of misconstruing my posts, I'd like to point out that I have no problem with photography, it's just that I don't consider it railfanning if all you want to do is take pictures and not to see anything otherwise. That makes it regular photography. There's nothing wrong with that, and that's fun too.
I think sometimes I get so concerned with photographing the train that I don't allow myself to relax and enjoy riding it. Thanks for helping put things in perspective!
(Besides, most of the trains I get to ride have been photographed before by better photographers, and a lot of the pictures are right here on this site!)
Mark
Are you sarcasm-challenged? Of course I'll gladly railfan if I don't have a camera. OTOH, I almost always have a camera with me when I'm riding the subway (even if I'm not specifically railfanning), since who knows when an unexpected Redbird will show its gleaming red face on the West Side?
How could that be sarcasm?
Don't expect that all forms of sarcasm will be understood on the internet. In the real world, tone of voice plays an incredibly large part in understanding language. That does not exist on the internet. The only sarcasm that can work in a written medium is the obvious type (no, the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun).
Email and E-board posting can be very sterile in that sense.
Yes, one of the risks of posting to electronic message boards is that sarcasm will sometimes be missed. It's a risk I took.
I don't like the winter or snow, but the most beautiful rail trip I've ever taken was in the late winter of 2001 during the last snowfall of the season. It was on a Metro-North train going northbound along the Bronx River Valley. Everything was lightly covered with snow, and the river which goes over a number of small waterfalls was very picturesque.
The snow was gone that afternoon.
The next time it snows with a light accumulation (none of those sorry ass flurries), I'll ride the Harlem line again, this time past White Plains (what a fitting name!).
Hey guys! Check this out http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/pdf_f/35_still.pdf
A "F N Q W..MORE CHANGES" Brochure
Spring 2004? I assume this date is selected for reopening of Northside MannyB.
I have one of the brochures..
Thanks for posting that.
The Stillwell Av project and the Manny B have little to do with each other. The Manny B is set to reopen in 2004, but as to when???
?????
The old BMT southern division has been a shadow of its former self for so long it's sad. It could have had a "Heyday" after Chrystie, but the whole system collapsed and then the Manny B finally gave out.
That could be about to change. I'm not sure of the schedules, but imagine if all of this was done by July 1, 2004:
1) All new signals on the Brighton, 4th, West End and Sea Beach lines (likely).
2) New Stillwell Terminal station.
3) New Atlantic Avenue station.
4) Manhattan Bridge fully open, with four express trains to Midtown (two on each side) during weekdays.
Might be the best service ever -- until the Manny B starts to crack again.
until the Manny B starts to crack again
Never fear, Larry. Other people on the forum have assured us this won't happen. ;-)
But the sky will fall on you before that, Larry, happens so you'll be blissfully unaware...
:0)
I think sometime in Spring 2004 also. Maybe same the day and time as F Q N W Stillwell Ave Terminal reopen for bussiness and I guess. I assume the same date since TA can get everything done once for all.
The TA isn't doing the Manhattan Bridge work -- that's all up to NYCDOT.
Kewl! It includes s rendering of the front of New Stillwell!
You can see where the preserved BMT LINES and BMT logo will go.
Don't care for that Oh-So-Turn-of-the-Millennium steeple and ball, though.
The sign at the station itself says February 2005.
So I think the brochure means the next service changes will be in 2004 if if it's not completed.
Probably 2005 is just when all the work will be completed, but enough will be done for the full service to be able to resume in 2004.
2005? Why so late? According to Manny B Service Change Brochure, the northside mannyb are closed for construction until 2004. Now the poster at the station say 2005? What is this? Some kind of a joke or something!
I think the 2005 refers to completion of Stillwell, not MB(?)
Well, Okay, Thats reasonable. I don't see why MB rehab would take that long since the DOT has been working on the bridge around the clock.
Note that the Stillwell terminal can reopen for business before it is completely finished.
Well, it depend how fast the completion of this project will take.
It depends on what % must be done before the station can accept pedestrians again. The whole station will be completely done by 2005, but the TA will allow service to resume in 2004.
Well, I gotta say that the entire large Stillwell structure will need til 2005 of work. I don't understand they say the project will completed by Spring 2004. I don't think the Stillwell will be done 2004 from what it looks like. Could the brochure be misprinted 2004 with 2005?
2004, 2005. What's the difference? The speed of the project will have a lot to do with how severe the next few winters are. If they are as mild as 2001/2002, great strides can be made.
Don't expect a mild winter this year cause the EL NINO has return.
There is no connection between the winter's weather in the Northeast and El Nino. The media is making you think there is. But science has a different opinion :-)
So Bill from Maspeth is right, but there is no way to predict how the winter will be. Let's go Stillwell!
NOAA Website has all the answer on how EL NINO effects global weather pattern.
according to that source EL NINO disrupt Global Weather pattern such severe drought in Australia. Create more severe storm in southeast U.S. Brings Heavy Rain and create mudside in Southwest U.S. In July of 1997 an EL NINO fueled thunderstorm spawned 10 tornadoes nearly destroyed the entire of the town Kissimmee, Florida. Most of these tornadoes had missed Orlando theme park according to Scientist at the NOAA.
In 1993, an large developing intensifying storm off of Gulf or Mexico also fueled by EL NINO spawned several tornadoes in Florida, created major flooding mid Atlantic States, and dumping more than 36 inches of snow in the Northeast. I certainly remember that blizzard here in NYC. This particular storm was one of the largest and most intense storm on record (called superstorm) paralyzed 26 states along Atlantic coast.
Most info can be found in NOAA and weather.com
was the blizzard of 1996 caused by el nino?
There will be service to Stillwell throughout (GO's aside), but for the next 18 months or so it will be only the W. Only one platform will be open at a time.
Next summer, it's gonna be a pain for many to get to Coney Island.
Why did they choose the W to go platform hopping? Either the F or the Q would've necessitated fewer station closures.
Those leads used by the F and the Q will probably be torn out and rebuilt. And the reason for sending the W and not the N, probably because more people ride the W. I'm wondering why NYCT hasn't put in a shuttle bus for N Train passengers making them head all the way up to New Utrecht to get service to Coney Island.
I'm wondering why NYCT hasn't put in a shuttle bus for N Train passengers making them head all the way up to New Utrecht to get service to Coney Island.
Or at least give them a paper transfer between Avenue U on the N and Avenue U on the F (or 86th St on the N and Avenue X on the F).
From what I've read, it doesn't seem like any paper transfers will be issued at all, and the shuttle buses will charge a fare (or MetroCard transfer). So if you were planning on, say, taking the F (train and bus) to Stillwell and transferring there to the W, that'll cost you two fares.
That's just greedy. Makes Unlimiteds really sound worth it.
I wouldn't attribute it to greed. Distributing and collecting transfers is costly, and the nearby stations would lose most of their paid fares simply by the nature of the transfer arrangement, unless the transfers are date-stemped. (Typical GO transfers are valid for a three-month period, although they look just like the old date-sensitive bus transfers, down to the tear-off time strip on top. If I accidentally tore off the top of the GO transfer sitting in front of me, it would be valid until September 30, but only until 2pm!)
But it would be nice if the loss of a free transfer were made explicit somewhere.
Because the F and Q have no way to platform hop, whereas the W (and the N if desired) can mosey into Stillwell on any of the eight tracks.
I'm hoping the contractor has secured financial incentives to finish before the targeted date (crossing fingers).
Once again:
2005 is the target date for the resumption of Sea Beach service to/from Stillwell. This will be the last affected service restored (as it was the first to be cut). Stillwell Ave will be open to West End/Brighton/Culver trains long before then. By the time the N returns to CI, it should be back on the bridge, much to Fred's delight.
That's for resumption of Sea Beach service to Stillwell. That'll happen later.
18 friggin months!!!?????
&^%$#@&^%#$@%@^@$@^^^$^%##%&^&^$@%##@#$%@@*
Just want let u guys know that there is a small handout flyers thats related to this brochure. I wasn't aware of this until today when I pick up the brochure today at Canal Street N R entrance. So there are a brochures and a flyer in total that described "MORE CHANGES". The first one is the booklet with spanish translation upside down same as the one I posted here. The other one is the flyer except that this flyer has few infos that wasn't on the booklet. Since I don't have a scanner. Here's are those couples of infos stated as
"N runs to Ditmars Blvd Weekdays and evening only"
"W" runs to Ditmars Blvd at all times.
"These changes are due to terminal reconstruction at Stillwell Avenue which is affecting service in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Queens."
Funny things is that no info on the "MORE CHANGES" flyer and brochure mentioned anything about whether or not N running via bridge.
Story in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/24/nyregion/24FERR.html
LIRR service increases in LIC.
It is? Unless there is an amendment of the GO, the post September 3 shows the same number of trains to/from LIC as before September 3, five each way.
That reminds me of when the LIRR was publicizing "CROSS-ISLAND SERVICE." This simply consisted of publicizing the ONE train westbound and TWO trains eastbound (all day) that made Babylon and also had stops on the Main Line via Central.
The increases they are talking about are the 5 trains each way peak direction...Before the current schedule rotation, there were only 2 each way peak direction IIRC.
No, there were five. You may be thinking of the number of trains using the Lower Montauk branch, which I think is down to one RT.
The other LIC trains come from Hunterspoint.
In addition, the LIC trains that use Hunterspoint are agonizingly slow. 34 minutes from Jamaica to LIC. Then a bus. Then a ferry.
May as well just take the J train from Jamaica and save some $$$.
Imperatore's ferry has done extremely well from NJ, but I think this one is doomed to fail.
CG
the LIC trains that use Hunterspoint are agonizingly slow. 34 minutes from Jamaica to LIC.
That's because they make an extended stop at Hunterspoint. These train weren't really new--they originated/laid up in LIC anyway, but now they carry passengers.
Imperatore's ferry has done extremely well from NJ, but I think this one is doomed to fail.
FEMA's paying for it. The Gummint's throwing a lot of money at us, just so they can connect it to 9/11 some way.
"FEMA's paying for it. The Gummint's throwing a lot of money at us, just so they can connect it to 9/11 some way."
It's a shame. If your going to waste taxpayer money, at least waste it on something people will use.
"FEMA's paying for it. The Gummint's throwing a lot of money at us, just so they can connect it to 9/11 some way."
It's a shame. If your going to waste taxpayer money, at least waste it on something people will use.
I agree. But it's the way the Government (Federal, in particular) is. They'll give you money for something they think is important, even if you think it's useless, but if you ask "can I have HALF that money for something I think is important?" you already know the answer.
Yeah, but don't forget the TGIF party bar-car train every Friday afternoon. Can't catch that one at Broad Street...
(In addition, the LIC trains that use Hunterspoint are agonizingly slow. 34 minutes from Jamaica to LIC. Then a bus. Then a ferry.)
The ferry itself, however, is very fast judging from the article. Which brings up an important point -- could rail at the waterfront, linked to ferries, solve some of our transportation problems? At NYC Planning, I proposed some rail to ferry improvements as a low cost alternative to more expensive proposals.
For example, if the LIRR went right to the water line at Hunterspoint, as in days of old, that route Downtown might make sense. Better yet, instead of taking the Cranberry Tunnel away from the subway, why not extend the LIRR to a terminal right on the water? Lower Manhattan would be just three or four minutes away by boat, and with that short a route NY waterway could probably make money by charging the equivalent of a subway fare. Each train could be met by two boats -- one going to Wall St on the East Side, the other over to Battery Park City. They could both be back for the next boat.
What about MetroNorth? There were some proposals to link the Harlem and New Haven Line over to a new station at Yankee Stadium. Why not build a ferry terminal there? Fast ferries might be able to make the trip to Lower Manhattan in 20 minutes -- much faster than a trip to Grand Central and down on the crowded Lex.
Finally, the nine acre Con Edison site on the East River is going to be redeveloped; it is currently up for rezoning. The state and local taxes on a major development there would probably pay to extend the Times Square Shuttle east on 42nd Street, through the site (where a station could be built), then at-grade under the FDR to the ferry terminal at 34th Street. Water transport to 34th Street on the East River would make much more sense if there was a seamless connection to the subway for a five minute trip to Grand Central and a seven minute trip to Times Square.
This is not going to be viable for redirecting LIRR traffic, even if the train went right to the ferry terminal.
From the Times article:
One-way fares will be $5 to Wall Street ($150 for a one-month pass) and $3 to Midtown ($80 for one month).
Somebody going from say Huntington or Amityille to midtown pays $181 for a monthly. Why would they then pay that same $181 plus $80 ($261 month) for the privilege of changing to a ferry and then a bus?
Or downtown: now pays $244 for railroad and subway, now $331 and you will still walk from the ferry for most downtown destinations.
(Somebody going from say Huntington or Amityille to midtown pays $181 for a monthly. Why would they then pay that same $181 plus $80 ($261 month) for the privilege of changing to a ferry and then a bus?)
No, but if the Atlantic Avenue Branch were extended to the water line in Brooklyn, they might pay $80 for a ferry and then a walk. A ferry can make money on a very short trip like that one -- lots of passengers, lots of trips, few boats. That's what it would take.
Some people on Long Island will pay a lot not to have to share a train with people from New York City. If there were no such thing as snob appeal, Toyota wouldn't be able to sell Lexuses since they are almost identical to Camrys.
Some people on Long Island will pay a lot not to have to share a train with people from New York City. If there were no such thing as snob appeal, Toyota wouldn't be able to sell Lexuses since they are almost identical to Camrys.
I drive a Ford. Not a Lexus (or Range Rover) in sight in my neighborhood. Maybe if I had rent control or City property taxes I could afford a Lexus.
(I drive a Ford. Not a Lexus (or Range Rover) in sight in my neighborhood. Maybe if I had rent control or City property taxes I
could afford a Lexus.)
Ah, but you probably ride the subway too. There is a whole constituency out there that won't.
Try paying a local income tax for a while, and having local schools with 35 kids in a kindergarten class. You'll see how people are punished for living here. We deserve it after all, since there are over one million people on welfare here draining the suburbs, those of us who live near them deserve to pay more and get less. There arent' 1.1 million people on welfare anymore? We'll there still are politically. Those folks are needed to justify certain things, so they must still be there even if they aren't in reality.
Don't forget, many who work on the east side now pay that $181 plus a $63 monthly metrocard -- so you're only talking an extra $17.
... not that I think this whole ferry thing would work, but you could re-institute the old zones 1A and 1B but with a twist -- Penn would be 1A, and the others in zone 1 would be 1B at a slight reduction in price.
They killed that zone 1A, 1B thing because they thought it was too labor-intensive for the trainmen to chop the step-ups.
That ferry was my preferred choice of transportation before it was cancelled. I used to park on the LIC side and ride the ferry into Manhattan - with my bad knees it was much easier than dealing with stairs in the subway.
What makes it easy for me is that I work within walking distance of the 34th St Ferry terminal, so I am looking forward to its return!!!
Story in San Francisco Examiner:
http://www.examiner.com/news/default.jsp?story=n.bart.0823w0
service MAY start in January, somewhere past 1 1/2 tears late by BART's own timetable.
No doubt due to their use of Tutor-Saliba as prime contractor...
OK, I'm being prejudicial...
No, BART just never does anything on time/budget no matter who the vendor/contractor. 8.7 miles $1.5 billion and when the cost overruns were growing, the staff fudged another $28 million or so by scutling an order for cars to staff the extension--they decided that the MDBF would rise enough to cober the car shortage.
That works out to $172.4 million per mile. Not bad, actually. They went behind schedule, but in comparison with east coast costs, it's not outrageous.
Maybe Tutor-Saliba did learn from their LA experience...
"That works out to $172.4 million per mile. Not bad, actually. They went behind schedule, but in comparison with east coast costs, it's not outrageous."
Depends how much is tunnel and how much is open cut or surface track.
If all you have to do is buy some land in industrial areas and put down track and signals, even the MTA could do it for $172 million per mile, but if there's significant amounts of tunneling, it's impressive.
It's mostly elevated track, if I am not mistaken. There were stations to build of course, and an impressive station and concourse at SFO.
Why aren't there any maps from this time period in the 'Historical Maps' section?
It's in my near-future plan to try to include every maps between 1980-present but my family and job comes first. My priority is to update any maps that are already on this site.
Michael Calcagno
Postman from Colorado
Any other site where I might get these maps?
It would be cool to see some scans of maps from this time period as well. The oldest map I have is from 1990.
Rode 9679 yesterday and on the side of the train, I noticed big green decals of tennis balls with a "7" in the middle. It says "the Official Train of the U.S. Open". Reminds me of what they did for the Subway Series. Looks really cool. I guess this is how they'll look when they go to their watery grave....
Any fish needing to go to a tennis match will know this is their train, and not to swim to the other cars.
:0)
This time, the hits just keep on coming.
Even though I once worked as an on the air personality in commercial broadcast radio, this will not be a piece about Top 40 Radio in the 60’s or early 70’s; it is all about railroading.
Back in the 1970’s, the late Gilda Radner created an outlandish character named "Rosanne Rosannadanna" who frequently appeared on "Saturday Night Live." Rosanne used to end all of her commentaries on Weekend Update with, "It just goes to show you, it’s always something. If it isn’t one thing it’s another. If it isn’t another thing it’s something else." Last weekend (August 17th and 18th), Conductor Rich Stevens and I lived this statement to the fullest.
They changed my assignment and train symbols all around last week. Instead of being trains 322 and 325 (Glenn Yard-Memphis) and laying overnight in Champaign, they are now trains 342 and 343 (Winnipeg-Centralia), doing the run from Glenn Yard to Champaign as 342 and turning right back to Glenn on train 343; a total run of 278 miles in twelve hours. Looks good on paper. In the real world of railroading, well^Å. It has been proven twice in the past not to work but we all know this industry loves to spend millions to prove that very point.
Saturday, August 17th we went to work at 1150 hours, not noon, not 1130, but 1150. The inbound 342 train had not even arrived from Fond du Lac off the Wisconsin Central Division and we were running away from it, as it would not get here anytime soon.
After departing Glenn Yard, our first hit was at Lemoyne, the Belt Railway of Chicago crossing about a mile and a half north of Glenn. We waited over half an hour for two trains to cross. We could have easily made it across in between them as we only had 87 cars this day. We took a fair delay at 21st Street, the Norfolk Southern/Amtrak crossing for two trains as well.
The next delay was just east of 21st Street. I approached block signal W2.6 which is just east of the 21st Street plant, observing it displayed a restricted proceed indication (red with a number plate). This signal aspect meant I could proceed without stopping, prepared to stop short of train, engine, railroad obstruction, switch not properly lined, roadway workers or equipment and looking out for broken rail. The speed through here is 10 MPH, so I didn’t have to worry about the last portion of this rule, which states "Not to exceed 20 MPH." This signal also governs the approach to 16th Street, the Metra Rock Island District crossing.
Once upon a time, about last year, when you had the signal to proceed at 16th Street, the signal at W2.6 used to convey a clear (green). For some reason it no longer gives a clear signal, the best it will display is an approach (yellow) signal telling me I may proceed prepared to stop before passing the next signal. We have made numerous complaints about this signal no longer displaying the clear aspect, but it has fallen upon deaf ears. Now, I operate accordingly. I presume the signal at 16th will be a stop signal (also known as fire your ass red, should you have the misfortune to pass it without permission) and approach it as such.
Being that we had the restricted proceed on the signal at W2.6, I have to presume there could be either one of the things mentioned above or some other problem ahead of me. It could also be test and the Trainmaster could be sitting just around the curve with a red flag or burning red fusee displayed and I would have to stop before passing it. This is one of the numerous tricky areas in which to operate a train on the CNIC. There are curves, grades to maneuver and bridges and curves to obstruct and hide the signals from your view. This portion of railroad is a good spot to perform a restricted speed test if you are that mindset. Being that I was only proceeding at about 8 MPH and didn’t have the distance to use the dynamic brake, I decided to set the air and apply the train brakes instead. As the air started to blow, POW, into emergency we went.
After going through the required period to recover the system, I began to pump air back into the brake pipe of the train. At first, FRED indicated he was getting it up back there as brake pipe pressure began to increase from "00". This didn’t last long though as the air then began to drop. This meant we likely had an emergency vent valve stuck open on one of the cars. As long as it is stuck open, the brake pipe will not recharge as the air is continuing to exhaust into the atmosphere through the open valve instead of pumping through the system recharging it to allow the brakes to release.
I attempted a cure from the engines but it failed to do the trick when I again restored air to the brake pipe. This meant Rich would have to begin walking the train looking and listening for the culprit car. Off he goes in search of (sounds like the old Leonard Nimoy show on TV) some sort of problem.
He had walked maybe ten or twelve cars back when the air suddenly began to rise on FRED. When I asked if he had found something he said "no." I told him to hold up walking any further as it looked like the valve had reseated. When FRED said there was now 45-psi I told Rich to return to the engines. Once the air reaches 45-psi on the tail end, you are generally "over the hump" as I call it meaning everything has reseated and closed and the brake pipe is now recharging just as George Westinghouse designed.
With Rich back on board and the brake pipe pressure restored to my satisfaction, we began to move again. We worked our way through the entire 10-MPH track segment from here to the south end of the McCormick Place tunnel and then proceeded south.
Things went rather smoothly for awhile, but then it was time for another hit. We had an approach indication at signal 46.1 in Manteno. This signal governs the approach to the control point at Indian Oaks. They call this North Kankakee now, but there is no such name listed in the timetable station page and the sign at the station itself still reads Indian Oaks, so that is what I continue to call it. Before I can even key up Chicago South, she calls first telling me of switch problems at the Oaks and our need to stop and hand operate the dual control switch for our move before we can proceed.
We can do this.
So I stop at the signal, Rich bails off and begins the ritual as required by the rules to get us through this. The switch was almost impossible for him to operate by hand, but he manages to get the task completed and we proceeded from the main track to the siding as instructed by Chicago South. We are going to meet a northbound here.
While heading through the siding, Chicago South again calls us and instructs us to stop and flag the crossing at South Tech Drive, which is just south of the Gar Creek control point. Apparently the gates are stuck down and the Signal Maintainer has been called out to make the repairs, but we will very likely get their first. Hmm, I guess that makes it "Two in a row!"
When we reached South Tech Drive, I brought the train to a stop short of the crossing and Rich dropped off to set lighted red fusees on either side of the crossing and stop all vehicular traffic. With this chore accomplished, he signals me to start them ahead. Once I have the crossing occupied with the engine, he re-boards and we proceed south yet again.
The rest of the trip to Champaign is uneventful.
Now knowing we have a long way to go and a short time to get there, we figure we will simply pull up at the yard office at Champaign and get off. That would be the logical thing to do but we all know that logic and railroad leadership makes for strange bedfellows. The Yardmaster informs us we will make the set out, but not until the switcher working in C Yard here is finished making his moves first. So we wait.
"Tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick"
Some forty-five minutes later, we have completed the set out and now head for the office. As we walk in the door, this same Yardmaster is now in a hurry to get us back out the door and up to the head end of our outbound train. We still have to get the paperwork for it as well as new bulletins addressed to this train. With that task completed, we head up to Leverett Junction and the outbound train.
Once I’ve inspected the power and cleaned the filthy windows, I notified Chicago South that we are ready to depart. We are told of Amtrak 392 coming (although a little tardy) and we for him to pass and then follow him. No problem. I guess this would be a minor hit, but a hit just the same.
We finally depart and make the run for Glenn Yard. All is uneventful up to this point when we start by the Clifton defect detector. As we are clearing it, BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP!! comes from my head end telemetry and the pressure on FRED rapidly drops to zero. I quickly drop the throttle to run 1 and wait for the air to dump on my automatic brake valve. During the wait, I can feel the slack in my train begin to change a bit and finally, POW! Now the entire train is in emergency and we are rapidly coming to a stop. During these proceedings, we get the "no defects" message from the detector on the radio with it telling us our speed was "four-eight MPH." Well, not anymore.
I recovered the air sending it back into the train and wait. Nothing out of FRED for several minutes means there is a problem. Rich gets organized and I inform him that whatever the problem is, it is way back as the tail end of the train was in emergency for several seconds before the head end was. He is thrilled to hear this. He goes and grabs an air hose and wrench from the air room just in case the problem might be a failed hose, climbs off and begins the walk back to inspect the train and look for the culprit of this dilemma. I contacted Chicago South to let her know of our situation. This was real good news for her. She had planned a meet with us and Amtrak 59 at Kankakee and now not only would that not happen, depending upon the problem, we would likely cause delay to him and also the trains following us, Norfolk Southern 68V and CNIC 333.
"Four in a row from your all hit station!"
After an extended walk, Rich discovered our trouble; we had come apart. The train had managed to uncouple itself. While not unheard of, this is not a very common occurrence. But being that it can happen, it has happened before in my career, the last time being two years ago. The reason I think this might have happened today was the excessive lateral motion of one of the cars involved at the location in the train where the uncoupling occurred.
Lateral motion is an excessive side to side motion of a car, a situation I refer to as a car "doing the twist." The car wiggles from side to side and causes the pin lifter or uncoupling lever on the car to also wiggle and shake. Under the right circumstances with just enough slack between the couplers of the two cars involved to allow, the pin lifter may jump just enough to allow an uncoupling to occur. Of course when that happens, the train separates and goes into emergency bringing everything to a stop. As it would happen this night, it was between the second and third rear cars of the train. We had some 7200 plus feet of train, so it was a fair walk for Rich to find the problem.
The two cars that uncoupled had stopped about thirty cars behind the rest of the train, just south of the road crossing that is about a quarter mile north of the Clifton detector. As close as I could figure, the uncoupling must have occurred just as the last two cars were coming over the detector.
While Rich was walking the train and trying to ascertain the problem, the lovely Jennifer our Chicago South Dispatcher this evening, had called for assistance. The Gilman Signal Maintainer, Dennis Cook, was summoned to assist us. For all of the times he has come to the aid of trains in distress, I kid Dennis that he ought to put in for Utility Trainman’s pay too. Also, a couple of railfans that were giving chase to our train also lent a helping hand. They heard our plight on the scanner and met up with the Conductor to lend assistance. Our hat is off and our thanks extended to them as well.
With train coupled back up (and a piece of scrap wood jammed into the pin lifter of the offending car to prevent this from occurring again), Dennis drove Rich back up to the head end. We departed after a one-hour plus delay towards Otto to meet Amtrak who was patiently waiting for us in Gar Creek siding. He got a bit of a delay from us, but unfortunately, that is the way of the single-track railroad world. We pass 59 and head on north to Peotone where we pause for a meet 281 and then head on north towards Markham.
On the main tracks at the south end of Markham Yard in Homewood are the high car detectors. We managed to trip the detector meaning there was the distinct possibility of a car in excess of seventeen feet in height in our train. This would be too high for anything north of the control point at 15.5 except on track four under the MoPac overhead, and we weren’t going to use that track. We had to receive a visual roll-by inspection to assure there were no high cars.
"Bringing you all the hits, all the time."
The sands of time in the hours of service glass were starting to become depleted. There was no chance of making it to Glenn Yard alive now. At this point in time, it had become a suicide mission. I guess that made us the kamikazes of railroading now; run it until you are dead.
We pulled to a stop at 16th Street tower in Chicago with about twenty minutes of sand left in the glass. Had we been given the signal right away, we could have made it the two miles to Bridgeport and expired there, but for whatever reasons, we didn’t and quietly passed in the night at 16th Street .
But wait, there is more. Being that we were doing the all hit weekend, we had several the following night with one that stands out as one of the greatest hits of all time.
We were coming north into Markham once again operating on short time. For whatever reason, the Chicago North Dispatcher had lined us up to operate north on track one. The problem with this was the high car detector. The detector on track one is only good for 125 cars, including the engines. We had 124 cars and two engines putting us just over its limit. This meant we would need the visual roll-by from somebody. Now in order to receive a good look over, you cannot blast by the employee conducting the inspection at 50 MPH, you need to reduce your speed so they can get a good look. This really eats into the time.
We got the required inspection and were informed we were "not high." But now, we had about twenty minutes of life to live, sort of running on the fumes as it were. Once again, we were on "death watch."
"We’re gonna die. I just know it, we’re gonna die!"
Here is where the greatest hit of all time took place. Chicago North calls and asks us where we thought we could make to before the run into the grips of Hours of Service. I tell her "Kensington."
"Okay, I’m going to cross you over from track 1 to 2 at Wildwood (15.5) and take it up to Kensington on two."
I repeat these instructions and immediately question Rich as to why in the world they would do something like this tonight. We constantly hear statements when we question the logic or illogic of a particular move that "We don’t see the big picture." In this case, we clearly saw the big picture and obviously the Dispatcher didn’t. But who am I to question this move, right? After all, what do I know, I am just the help. So I don’t say anything. I simply does what I is told.
We reach 15.5 receiving the diverging approach (red over yellow) indication telling me that I am crossing over here as described and to be prepared to stop before passing the next signal which, in this case would be the signal at Kensington. So over we go to track two and up to Kensington. I stop and we once again, quietly pass away in the night. Doesn’t sound like too big a deal right? Wrong! Well, while not alive, we weren’t really dead. I guess we were on life support waiting for somebody to unplug us. Read on.
When we stopped, the tail end of the train was still in the plant at 15.5 blocking the works. We did not clear up as our 7300 plus feet of train was too long to fit between there and Kensington. Uh oh! And now, we are dead on the hours.
"You’ve gone and done now haven’t you!"
Rich gets on the phone and calls the Trainmaster at Glenn Yard to see if our ride is coming equipped with a recrew to promptly move the train. They aren’t. In fact, there was no crew to be had from Glenn anytime soon. This is not good. There is that NS 68V train coming behind us on track two and he has to use these very crossovers at 15.5 to go from track two over to four. With us stretched out in the plant, this cannot and will not happen.
Rich informs this guy of our situation and his response is "You’re just kidding me, right?" Rich told him that he was dead serious and that indeed, we had the world blocked and were dead on the hours. I guess then, this was now a Maalox moment.
Within a few moments, Chicago North calls us and asks us if we have any more room to pull up. While I had maybe three or four car lengths, it would not be enough. And besides, we were dead anyway and I’m not moving the train unless specifically instructed to violate the Hours. Panic, mayhem, fear and just really karma now. Within moments, the Assistant Super calls and asks if we are indeed blocking 15.5 and I give him the bad news. He is not at all happy. With this move, Chicago North has effectively brought things to a screeching halt. DOH!
While I did not hear any such sounds, I can guarantee there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth going on over the sudden developments. I am also willing to bet a certain Dispatcher has a little less hind side to rest themself upon as well.
Some quick juggling and a crew at Hawthorne Yard that was supposed to work the power plant at Plaines was brought down to get our train. The Glenn Yard Trainmaster would transport them to Kensington. They would meet us and the Assistant Super who picked us up from the train and brought us over to a restaurant parking lot meet the Glenn Yard Trainmaster, who is not familiar with the area around Kensington. While we waited and discussed the entire situation with the Assistant Super, the NS crew that we now had blocked volunteered to walk over to our train and shove it back south of 15.5 to clear things up for us. They were thanked and told that another crew would be here shortly to move our train.
The post script to this hit sounds like this; for whatever reason, 99% of the time, whenever the North Dispatcher crosses us from track one over to track two around Kensington, they choose to perform the move at Kensington instead of at 15.5. I have questioned this move on many occasions, as it makes no sense. The crossovers at 15.5 are good for 25 MPH while those at Kensington are only good for 10 MPH. And it seems that the less time we have to work, the more likely they are to cross us over at Kensington.
I questioned a Dispatcher about this one evening when we were on short time and tried to explain to him that we could make it further using the 15.5 crossovers instead of Kensington, but got accused of telling him how to do his job. I was also told that if we should happen to go on the ground at 15.5 we would block the NS trains from moving. Hmm, we’ll block the NS, those trains they tend to screw nine ways from Sunday more often than not. So instead, we’ll take the chance of going on the ground at Kensington and ripping out the South Shore crossing and possibly pulling down a catenary or two and totally disrupting Metra’s neighboring Electric District as well as the Shore. But again, I guess I don’t see the big picture. So now I say nothing.
Yes listeners, if it’s a big hit, you know you’ll hear it here first and hear it more often. Keep it tuned to us for more of the greatest hits of all time.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
If you are interested in the MoPac, take a visit to Screaming Eagles over the Prairie at www.trainweb.org/screamingeagle/index.html
"Rosanne Rosannadanna" who frequently appeared on "Saturday Night Live." Rosanne used to end all of her commentaries on Weekend Update with, "It just goes to show you, it’s always something. If it isn’t one thing it’s another. If it isn’t another thing it’s something else."
That general phrase is based on an old Yiddishism going way back. It reflects the somewhat depressive fatalism that is a coping mechanism.
Then again, I guess it's not all that different from Hamlet's "To Be or Not to Be" solliquoy.
Unless your 'charged,' you get paid for every grain of sand. CI Peter
I'm curious as to why you posted it this time instead of Tuch himself
Tuch does not post on this board.
I usually post Hot Times, but Lexciee beat me too it this time. The little rascal.
oh...I didn't know JM wasn't tuch...I was just taking that for granted since he posts them 9 out of 10 times.
my mistake
NYC Transit repeatedly advertised for new Car Inspectors on their WNEW show over a year ago. O&A are gone for another stupid stunt but there are at least fifty new CIs in the system that are still working now who never heard of this employment opportunity. I'm one of them. Goodbye Redbirds, goodbye o&A, the ocean is blue and deep. Maybe TA can use 'The Greaseman' for voiceover work on newest tech if our friend Todd Glickman doesn't get the job. CI Peter
Heh. My application is in :-)
"The next stop is Lexington Avenue and 53rd Street, where it's 88 degrees and sunny. This is a Queens-bound E train."
But inside the subway station the temperature is 188 degrees!
OK, I'll amend my application to provide "indoor/outdoor" readings.
ding, dong.
Amend your application to provide indoor/outdoor/undercar temperatures. CI Peter
But inside the subway station the temperature is 188 degrees!
Celsius
Ay carramba!!
OTJ, not to worry -- I think Ron & Fez will carry on the O&A spirit at WNEW FM. (I got my Ron & Fez 'Big Ass Card' a couple of weeks ago)
You mean ... they MEASURE? :)
Hey, I listen to them and I never understood that and the 'Hoo-Ah' they do every time? What's up with that??
OOOH-HAH was a voice bit from the last 'Addams Family' motion picture...the Spanish actor who tragically died of illnes. O&A had a voice bit file or a link to one where you could string a bunch of them together to use for answering machine/voice mail. All goes deep six into the blue. CI Peter
I see, thanks.
Sorry for the delay. Got busy with some other stuff this week.
On Friday, August 9 the last R-62A train operated on the 6: 1716-1720 and 1761-1765. Those cars now appear to be idled until the September schedule change. Where to? 4? 7?
Same day: As indicated by CI Peter, all R-33s assigned to 239 Street (2) were consolidated with those at East 180 (5) as a single fleet. 5-assigned R-33s continued to appear on the 2 (1-3 a day)...
...until Friday, August 16. Last Redbird train on the 2 was 8816/8817-8993/8992-8891/8890-8997/8996-9185/9184. Don't have particulars on the last trip. Would appreciate it if someone else does.
This ends 44 years of "SMEE" operation on the 2 (7th Avenue-Bronx Express). According to my timeline, it all began on January 13, 1958 when the first train of brand-new R-22s were assigned. In those heady times, the R-21s were in separate consists and used on the Broadway Local & Express (now the 1). All the R-17s were still on the 6 line.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
"SMEE?"
Self lapping emergency electric- i think (Brakes)
pre R10/12s had AMUE brakes,
Anything with H2As had AMUE(B to R9)
Anything with H2Cs had SMEE(R10-R42,R62,R68/A)
What type brakes/couplers do the R44/46/142/a/143s have?
I also am puzzled by this terminology. Could someone give us brief primer on SMEE and alternative systems that do (did) the same thing. I appreciate R30's information:
**************************************************
Self lapping emergency electric- i think (Brakes)
pre R10/12s had AMUE brakes,
Anything with H2As had AMUE(B to R9)
Anything with H2Cs had SMEE(R10-R42,R62,R68/A)
What type brakes/couplers do the R44/46/142/a/143s have?
*******************************************************
But I still don't understand what SMEE nor AMUE mean. I know the R-142's and R-143's are "new tech" and run on entirely new priniples, so I guess they would not be part of this discussion.
Thanks in advance
yet the 142/3s use the R44/6 couplers
SMEE - Self-lapping Mechanical Electrical Equipment
Couplers on the R44/R46 are HT4-U93. The T/O Training books for the R142A and R142 says that that coupler is a WABCO/OB hook-type coupler. I leave it to the learned ones to tell if they are the same.
You can read about it here or here.
so no redbirds on the 2 6 3 .............???
by this mid setember right ???
so no redbirds on the 1-9 ...2 6 3 .............???
by this mid setember right ???
Redbirds haven't run on the 1 or 3 since the mid 80s, and they were graffitti-birds back then.
i know bout' da' 3 - 1-9 ...remember the r 21-22s on em !!
I think it's safe to assume 1716-20 will go off to the 7, while 1761-65 to the 1/3.
As for the end of Redbird Runs on the 2, never say never! Redbirds will probably still pop up on the 2 every so often, to meet the needs of service.
Oh, did I say there was a 240th Street train set in service on the 5 today? What was that about?
-Stef
I saw it 2 weeks ago, signed for a 5 (dyre-utica)at 96/broadway (uptown local track)
I think it's safe to assume 1716-20 will go off to the 7, while 1761-65 to the 1/3.
As for the end of Redbird Runs on the 2, never say never! Redbirds will probably still pop up on the 2 every so often, to meet the needs of service.
Oh, did I say there was a 240th Street train set in service on the 5 today? That's unusual.
-Stef
There's one train from 240th on the 5 every day. Its first SB run is as a local from 242nd to Flatbush, signed as a 5. I don't know its schedule, but the only time I saw it was at Times Square around 7:45am. I assume it returns in the evening but I have no idea when.
I know, but on a Saturday? There shouldn't be any R-62As running on the 5. This was an exception.
-Stef
Oh, I missed the "today" bit. What time is that 5 supposed to get back to Van Cortlandt on weekdays? Could the GO north of 215th have stranded it, forcing it to spend the night with the rest of the 5's? Then in the morning it may have been pulled out just like any other train.
Incidentally, during the 1 GO, are any 1 trains sent to any of the WPR yards, or is there enough space at Livonia and 137th? I notice that the 215th GO and the Utica-New Lots GO never overlap, presumably so access to both yards is never cut off at the same time.
Man, 7th Ave is gonna become the most boring line in the system.
Man, 7th Ave is gonna become the most boring line in the system.
Why, are they finally going to extend it to the Javits Center? :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rim shot!
If anybody has the new car assignment sheet matrix for both divisions, I'd greatly appreciate a copy. I need to seriously update the yards section in my book for the fall showing how many trains for each route are based at which yards.
If you can help, please e-mail privately. Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Soon!
1716-20/1761-65 are now on the west side in service on the 1.
7016-7025 on the road August 23, 2002.
6571-6575 and 7026-7030 still testing.
Still only two R-142As on 4 as of August 22, but at least they ARE on the road.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
After the 5 gets their shipment..3 is next?
Yes.The 3 wil get the r142s
Do you know if the 8:59 Utica will be eliminated when the redbirds are gone? Will they keep some r-62s around just for that train? Or attempt to use r-142s for it?
I still have yet to actually see this train because it doesn't seem to run when I am there. I saw a (5) running OOS on WPR after terminating at E 180, that's it.
I don't have the timetables in front of me, but it is my understanding that the interlines have been eliminated on the IRT.
David
Why would a change of equipment doom that train?
Ask David J. Greenberger :-)
The R-142s have strip maps with bulbs that wink off when the train passes each station. Since the strip maps can't be changed easily, with an interline they'd be completely wrong for at least one trip. I've been told that's the reason there won't be any more interlines, but if someone else can come up with a reason I'll certainly be willing to entertain it.
David
It was expected that Bombardier R142 trainsets were so reliable that swapping between lines would be almost nonexistent. So permanent maps with yellow LEDs were installed...a corner LED flashes to indicate that the map is not in use. More often than not. CI Peter
I thought it was because BRONX EXPRESS would be displayed on all northbound diamond #5 trains and that's why there would be a problem.
And also Utica/New Lots isn't on the strip map (a problem that applies to many 2/5 trains)
They could put both 2 and 5 strip maps (one on each side) in that one train and only activate one (is that possible?)
I mainly wanted to know if a diamond 5 will still be running to 238 at sometime after 10:00. I don't care if it will come from 2 service or not.
Do you know why 239 Street yard needed a train at 10:13 am for?
Wouldn't it have been easier to send up one of the #5 trains from the AM rush instead of using a #2?
IF a trainset was pulled out of service to go to 239th yard, it was either 'Train Troubles' or special; inspection of coupler/linkbar assemblies. CI peter
Read the #5 weekday schedule, there is a scheduled (in service) #5 to 238 at 10:13 am.
Because there's no more room at New Lots and it has to get off the road somewhere.
Ah, that's funny.
We're going back to the days when horsecars had their soutes and destinations painted on. We've come a long way, baby! ;-)
So solve the problem as in early systems. Put a couple of hooks above the sign boxes, and hang wooden destination signs for variant services!
You think I'm joking?
Few more things
Will that diamond 5 train (northbound) still exist at all (from an AM rush #5 running to NLTS) or will it just disappear?
Has that train always come from #2 service? I heard it's been running since at least 1999.
Does that include the scheduled runs to points that don't appear on the map, like the 2/5 to Utica/New Lots, the 5 to Van Cortlandt, and the 3 to the Bronx?
(If you happen to have the schedules for those runs handy -- particularly the Bronx variations -- could you please post them, especially if they're going to be eliminated soon? I know they've been posted before but I dread searching through the archives for them.)
If you're referring to the special rush hour 2/5 runs which go to Utica or New Lots instead of Flatbush, then I can confirm that yes, they're still running them, and they're using R142's as well. The auto conductors are turned off in Brooklyn and the stations are announced manually.
No, I was referring to the 5 that goes uptown to 238th in the morning instead of Dyre. This train comes from 2 service.
What about the destination signs? I saw a 5 that said Brooklyn Local? when do 5 trains go local in Brooklyn (Nostrand branch doesn't count)?
2 trains can only say Flatbush, 5 trains can only say Flatbush (for Brooklyn). Maybe they will use the 4 r-142A's in the future for 5 special runs
5 trains to New Lots in the late AM run local after Nevins St. I'm not sure how many of them are scheduled.
what about the PM, this train was going southbound at E 180 at around 5:00 pm and had BROOKLYN LOCAL
Never rode them in the afternoon rush, so I'm not sure.
An investigation by airport officials and Bombardier
Transportation, the company that built the AirTrain cars, blamed
the Aug. 4 collision on a software glitch that mistakenly placed
the computer-controlled trains on the same track at the same
time.
"The whole software program is being taken apart line-by-line
to find the problem," said Mike McCarron, an airport spokesman.
Mebbe I'm a bit of a Luddite, but these "fix it in rev.2" sofware guys have absolutely the wrong philospohy for railroad work. I really hope these kinda bugs are not what we're in for with CBTC.
I'll take dogs/tappets, relays, and a guy with two handles, any day.
I raised this question in a private email to BMTman, but I'll raise it here too since I *KNOW* NYCTA/MTA *loves* Microsoft Winders ...
By the way ... see if we can find out what OPERATING SYSTEM it's using. If it's Windows CE or Windows NT/2000/XPee, there's an INTERESTING bug in the operating system ITSELF. We've all heard of "binary" or "boolean" which means TRUE or FALSE, ONE or ZERO. In Windows however, there's a mysterious "third state" ... from the Windows API documentation, some functions will return Zero or One as expected, but some functions return "Non-ZERO" which might be an integer of MINUS ONE (-1) which is neither zero nor one.
Makes me crazy writing code by the rules only to find out that rocks sometimes float. Wouldn't surprise me if this is what was behind the problem. That "Airtrain" is running on Windows would confirm my suspicion. Code must test for ZERO and if NOT zero, then the boolean false applies. Unnerving it is ...
um .... non-zero is considered the same as one to those people. Or maybe I haven't spent enough time browsing through their zillion page MSDN documentation to see what you're talking about
Yes, but FALSE is defined as "1" ... sometimes the result returned is "32", other times, it's "-1", other times it's 0xFFFFFFFF ... so if you do "portable code" dependent on definitions of "TRUE" or "FALSE" as a result, a heaping world of hurt can result. Microsoft's solution is to #DEFINE FALSE = !TRUE.
Simple enough, therefore "TRUE" = 0 ... however a DWORD "0" is 0x00000000 while an INT 0 = 0 and those ain't the same. So next time you get a blue screen, bottom line is "it's not a bug, it's a feature." I think I know what OS Arthur Andersen was cooking the books with.
Head pounding yet? :)
yeah i know what you mean about that true = 0, false = 1 gibberish. If Microsoft controlled physics, gravity would have things falling upwards and opposite magnetic poles repelling.
DWORD vs INT....DWORD is 0x00000000 and INT is 0x0000...less digits as you'd expect. Just don't try to predict when the function is gonna return a DWORD or an INT, or a pointer instead of a handle, you'd have better luck winning the lotto.
Yep, rocks float. Didn't even bother with DWORDLONG, UINT, INT64 (which is unsigned) and a raft of other Microsoft anachronisms. If you REALLY want to have some fun though, generate a bunch of random filenames in hexadecimal ... things like 017C4BC3, 1F73A304, etc ... make maybe 128 such filenames with generously distributed hexadecimal 8 "digit" filenames.
Sort them in Windows explorer in 95, 98, 2000, NT and finally XP. You might note some interesting results in how they get sorted among the various versions of Windows. It demonstrates some other interesting inconsistencies among the "unified Win32 API" ... yep, we've got trouble, right here in Redmond city ...
No *WAY* would anyone in their right mind depend on Windows ... but if you've got time to check it out and have the various versions to play with like we do here, it gets QUITE interesting.
Shouldn't those filenames be sorted according to the 8-bit ascii value of the characters that represents the hex? Thus, it should sort consistently.
Geez, this bug (if it is there) is much worse than the Pentium-60 bug (Is anyone here old enough to remember the 2-1=0.99999999999983458723456 bug?)
AEM7
It depends on the version, and depends on which patches have been applied or not. THOROUGHLY inconsistent. Irreproduceable at times. But it's a nice easy way for anyone planning to run RAILROADS on windows just how RANDOM Windows can be. And to Bill Gates, the ULTIMATE insult is to call something "random" ... boy oughta practice what he preaches. :)
But that's the reason why I get the willies any time any government agency wants to move to Windows for critical things like running a war or a railroad ... but yeah, just for sheets and giggles, check it.
Security issue Q394721 -
Problem: Trains randomly open doors with all 10 cars in the tunnel, with no warning.
Cause: By design.
Solution: Reboot train every hour. Only wash exterior of train with approved Microsoft brand cleansers.
Keywords: train doors random open death pain lawsuits not-a-bug
Heh.
"This issue will be resolved in a future upgrade of Microsoft choo."
Get linux. Since it is open source, you can look at it with a fine pick comb. Also being review by 1,000s of people the yokels at redmond can't do.
Pretty scary. This control software is supposed to be vital
equivalent. That's the sort of bug that absolutely should never
have gotten through. One thing if the bug makes the trains stop,
but giving two trains the same piece of railroad is just about
the worst thing you can do. Maybe its time to "just add a relay".
Proper design would actually include a backup processor that would have to agree with the primary one.
We're not going back to simple relays, because the new systems are, by and large, much better. Some employees will remain reluctant to learn to use these systems, but they are here to stay.
Airliners had some initial problems when glass cockpits were introduced to replace the flight engineer. There was even a crash attributable to these systems. But flight engineers have virtually disappeared from the skies, and they're not coming back. Trains will see a similar evolution.
A backup processor??
Next thing you are going to have the Space Shuttle for a train with 5 processors arguing with each other?
Nah, I stick with Jeff and just add a relay.
Modern trains already do that. It's not a big deal.
"Nah, I stick with Jeff and just add a relay."
In the long run, that'll get you an invitation to join the flight engineers and locomotive firemen on the unemployment line.
Backup processors are there. They are in all signal circuities. Most of British Rail's SSI installations include three processors and they all have to agree. The logic had been in interlocking towers since the 1960's.
Recent desktop signalling systems (including Metro North) have gone over to Windows instead of proprietarily engineered code and hardware. While they save money, they do incur a certain amount of risk. Usually, the way these systems work is to have three PC's all of which have to agree with each other. The problem arises when all three PC's are made out of the same mould and the mould contains bugs (like that API bug Selkirk was just talking about).
NT is not a certified safety-critical piece of software. Nor is it mathematically proven. Microsoft also makes no claims that it is.
This Airtrain accident sounds like a software fuck-up and not an operating system fuck-up. No one in the right frame of mine, while implementing a piece of safety-critical software, will rely on unproven API's.
AEM7
I'd disagree (again, the reason why I'm wondering if the system is running under WINDOWS or I'll back off this argument immediately if it ISN'T Windows) ... surely the software was proven in pre-acceptance testing. For purposes such as that you would test the hell out of scenarios and responses, ESPECIALLY THAT ONE.
The changes to Windows' behavior is VERY recent, a very poorly conceived response to a rash of "buffer overflow" security bugs where instead of fixing the underlying problem, changes were made to the kernel itself. This method ends up "breaking" software that worked prior flawlessly with "unexpected results" replacing formerly reliable behaviors even if they may have been flawed at the OS basis originally.
You've got to admire an OS company that defines "ERROR_SUCCESS" as a "good" outcome for an operation. :)
instead of fixing the underlying problem, changes were made to the kernel itself.
OK, I'm looking forward to "le Big One" then. Hypothetical scenario: MNRR signalling software fuck up, rush hour 12-car trains collide at 90mph, signal behind wreck still showing "APPROACH", a few hundred dead. Investigation finds operating system at fault. Relatives sue. Microsoft claim that they did not certify the software for safety-critical use. Expert witnesses testify that in fact in the industry NT is used in safety-critical operations and MS cannot disclaim that liability since they knew about the condition. Multi-billion dollar settlement ordered by court puts Microsoft in bankruptcy.
AEM7
Scroo that. Piddly scenario. Our MILITARY uses Windows. Whole battle groups run on it. :)
I doubt you'd see that. At best, MNRR's system is likely a SCADA type, where the centralized windows box can observe operations and act as a remote tower operator, but it can't force the signal system to do something inherently unsafe, as the signal system has final say over things. i.e., it can try to put two trains on a collision path, but the interlocking equipment simply won't.
At least, I hope so.
It's interesting to note, but software engineering has no certification or regulatory control over it. Your life critical code could be written by a drugged up kiddie in San Jose, a 30 year IBM vet in Armonk, or a total idiot in Redmond.
Computers can, and have in that past had software errors that have resulted in fatalities (see the Therac-25, the classic case of the computer as a killer*).
Interestingly, the NRC does not allow computers to make the decisions in running nuclear power plants - it's still up to a very trainned and very certified operator to run things. The computers only serve as safety / data collection / etc systems. You won't see Windows crash and a meltdown result (in fact, chopping power to the control rod drives results in a scram).
The software industry has had a hard-on for the 'standard solution' bullshit for years, partly driven by Microsoft and it's cast of clowns. I sure as hell don't want a lowest common denominator system running ANYTHING life critical. When you have millions of lines of code, you have lots of bugs that aren't always going to get squashed.
I've heard of some scary stuff Airbus planes have done as a result of computer bugs....
* Radiation treatment machine released in the 80's. Patients periodically claimed the machine burnt them, yet hospital staff claimed it was impossible to overdose 'because it's run by a computer'. After a numerous burns and 10 or so deaths, a resultant investigation revealed a software error that would on occasion cause doses so large they were beyond the capacity of the machine's insurtments to measure. Most deaths resulting were slow and quite painful. Lots of lawsuits emerged from this.
I had the Therac case in B-school. Agreed it was a great scenario for training, from both business and IT perspective. Unfortunately the professor teaching it had no clue about the important issues...
A good run down of the Therac deaths is at:
< a href="http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs3604/lib/Therac_25/Therac_1.html">http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs3604/lib/Therac_25/Therac_1.html
Be warned that the document gets highly technical at points, and that includes accounts of the times the machine malfunctioned. One might want to check their stomach before go to that link...
Ironically, the software bugs had existed for years on earlier machines, but the hardware interlocks those machines had prevented injury. The Therac-25 had such interlocks removed from the design....
One saw a number of problems that existed:
Blind trust that that computer 'could not screw up'.
Inability / unwillingness for the manufacturer to investigate the issue.
Somewhat poor communication between sites using the machine.
Unwillingness to believe the patient complaints.
Unwillingness to believe the machine could do what it did. This is related directly to point #1 - blind trust of the computer.
Removal of hardware interlocks - afterall, the computer 'worked right'.....
Blind trust of the computer is most scary, though. That people could simply not believe a machine could malfunction so badly is scary. Incedently, this also existed in the Three Mile Island incedent (the operators simply could not believe the core caould get so dammaged), and at Chrenobyl (They couldn't believe they actually destroyed the reactor altogether). One wonders why in the latter two insantaces, people actually felt that way, especially given the number of core melts that had occured in the past (at least 2 in the US, who knows how many overseas, and the former USSR isn't the only target here - the UK hasn't been very forthcomming with their nuclear incedents, nor has anyone else)
Thanks for posting that link.
Those are valid issues - at one level. At a higher level are more fundamental management issues. Management was incompetent, even reckless.
Technical development was pursued without involving the customer, without auditing the programmer's work, without adequate testing, without adequate documentation.
There were several opportunities to test new hardware and software in the safety of previously built, proven equipment and find and correct flaws before they became a problem.
As a good example on a larger scale, notice that Boeing used a 757 as a flying testbed for its F-22 avionics suite. While ultimately the avionics suite would have to be tested and validated in its intended airplane, the testbed allowed a lot of debugging to occur first, getting rid of the most important problems and mistakes before risking a test pilot on a new airframe mated to a new computer. The result is that the F-22 prototypes are meeting milestones and not generating a lot of headlines.
BTW, your link resulted in "page cannot be found"
Check:
http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs3604/lib/Therac_25/Therac_1.html
I believe that's the correct address. it just worked for me... *shrug*
Bingo! Thank you.
LOL, the reason that Three Mile Island happened at all was because the human operator overode the computer safety systems. I think that the NRC should look out for what it wishes for.
No, actually the reason TMI happened was a misconnected air line while cleaning a feedwater polisher. This caused water to back into the instrument air line, which ultimately caused the steam supply to the turbines to be cut off. The steam was dirverted (as designed), to the condensor. The condensor dropped it's vacuum, causing the atmospheric dumps to open. While this was going on, the reactor scramed (as per design).
Up to this point, TMI experiencing an interesting, although quite aceptable shutdown...
When the emergency feedwater pumps started to supply water to the steam generators, they could not supply water because their block valves were closed (because of a maintenance proceedure - they weren't re-opened as they should have been). The lights indictaing this were covered by tags hanging from other valves.
This is where things start going really wrong....
The primary loop pressure started building (nowhere for the decay heat to go), and the pressurizer started venting water. The relief valve, however, didn't close, thus the primary system kept venting. With the pressure falling off, the injection pumps started running, but this refilled the system, but because of the open valves, didn't build pressure. This put the primary system in danger of totally filling (even PWRs normally have a volume of steam in them), thus the injection was shut by the operators. A steam bubble formed in the reactor vessel (a bad thing in a PWR, in a BWR it's quite desired!), and the circulation pumps started pumping a steam/water froth. Had this continued, they would have cracked and split open. Very bad.
Mind you, the reactor has been scrammed for quite a few seconds now. The danger is the serious amount of decay heat that any large power recator generates right after shutdown (it ultimately drops after a few hours/days). The reactor isn't 'critical' at this point.
The operators shut the circulation pumps, hoping that convection would keep the reactor cool (not far fetched - nuclear submarines operate entirely on convection, even at power). The still open relief valve, however, let water out of the system, uncovering the core (very very bad).
Meanwhile, the feedwater pump valves were discovered closed, opened, and water was being supplied to the now dry steam generators. This provided a much needed heat sink, finally. It also started the coolant shrinking as it cooled...
Ultimately, the overflow tank overflowed, causing a high containment pressure. An operator comming in on the shift change noticed this and made the connection - and closed a manual valve, stopping the drainning from the primary loop.
With the primary a closed loop, and the steam generators being fed, the remaining problem was a steram bubble in the reactor vessel. The core became uncovered (it's estimated it may have been close to 2/3rds at one point), and melted. When TMI was opened in the early 80's, it was found that virtually all of the fuel had melted.
BTW, radiation levels in the containment durring the incedent were the highest ever recorded outside a weapons test...
Once the steam bubble (and the more sinister hydrogen bubble - a hydrogen explosion occurred in the contaiment earlier, leading to suspicion that there was hydrogen in the cooling loop, also) was collapsed, the reactor was once agin under normal cooling, and basically cleanup was all that was left.
Ultimately, all of the core was destroyed. All but a few kg of the fuel was later recovered.
The President's Report on TMI is a great read, BTW. Interestingly, Carter was himself an ex navy reactor guy.
Previous meltdowns in the US were:
* Enrico Fermi unit I - a sodium cooled fast breeder in Michigan. Partial melt of the 3 by 3 by 3 foot core (1,000 MWt, I think), caused by a piece of debris.
* EBR-I - Experimental unit. Football sized core. This reactor is now a museum and if you're in Idaho, an excellent (and free) visit. I have a few pics from mine the other week, including the top head of the reactor vessel.
* Borax - I guess I might as well include this - but Borax was an intended meltdown experiment, so it wasn't an accident.
As a side note, the first (only?) deaths of workers in the US nuclear program (power, not weapons), was attributed to a steam explosion of the SL-1 experimental reactor.
TMI was a combination of errors in design, operation, and maintenance that managed to combine to make it happen. It was hardly a result of the operators 'overriding the computer' (which if they haddn't , would have resulted in a much much bigger mess).
Well at least one of the "make it much worse" problems was when the operators overruled the computer controled cooling pumps. Had the system preformed automatically, most of the shit would have been averted. The reactor core temp was finally brought under control when the operators finally realized what was going on (communications was a wreck) and restored the cooling water.
No no no and no. Go back and re read the president's report on the accident. Had the cooling pumps been allowed to run, they would have certainly vibrated to pieces, leaving the primary system with one big hole, NO water, and no way of getting any in.
I trust what I saw on PBS over anything President "Idiot" Carter (a.k.a History's Greatest Monster) has to say.
"Idiot" Carter, as you call him, learned his craft from Admiral Hyman Rickover.
Now, please tell us here how much you know about Hyman Rickover, and why I mention him. If you're even close, I might believe your last post was accidental, rather than the mark of a low-grade moron.
"Idiot" Carter, as you call him, learned his craft from Admiral Hyman Rickover.
Which probbably made Carter the best person to have in charge at the time.
Now, please tell us here how much you know about Hyman Rickover, and why I mention him.
Zero, obviously.
(post post research doesn't count, Mikey)
If you're even close, I might believe your last post was accidental, rather than the mark of a low-grade moron.
Don't hold your breath.
It's a pleasure to be able to sit on the same page with you on this one, Philip, even though on other things, we might butt heads.
I don't care who he learned anything from. His whole "Morality to Forgien Policy" stance was a disaster that cost thousands of American lives, our National Price and probably trillions of dollars. Anyone who can screw up this country that badly has no credibility in my eyes on anything, including the time of day. The Republican party was effecticly dead after Watergate. It took a man like Carter to allow the Republicans to come sweeping back in 1980. Heck, given the choice my parents even voted for Regan.
How can you vote for somebody whose name you can't even spell?
Anyway, the thread was about a nuclear reactor accident, not Carter's presidency overall. Different story.
thank you ron for mentioning that. you read my mind.
You're welcome.
"Idiot" Carter (a.k.a History's Greatest Monster)
Could'ya back that statement up, please?
Exactly what did he do that was worse than Reagan, Nixon, or Robert Moses?
I'll admit that he's probably much more effective building houses now than he was in office, but come on.
Robert Moses?
What did Robert Moses do wrong? He got a whole lot of shit built that would never have been built had it not been for him. Have you guy forgotten what happened to the West Side Highway proposal? Why do you think NYC is always getting screwed out of Federal money?
AEM7
No, we haven't forgotten about the West Side Highway. A lot of us are glad it was never built. Unlike the Big Dig, which is badly over budget but nonetheless offers some real, tangible benefits to Boston, including environmental benefits, the West Side Highway is a monstrosity that was deservedly killed dead.
Moses was mass transit's worst nightmare - and I would not be looking to resurrect him.
Howzabout the Mid-Manhattan Expressway OVER 33rd street? The Brookyn-Battery BRIDGE? Whould we be better off with those on the skyline?
Or chopping great neighborhoods in two, with the Gowanus and Cross-Bronx Expressways?
Yes, he built parks and playgrounds, but only in more affluent neighborhoods, or places necessitating the use of a car. He was biased against the poor, and was also a racist.
We claim to live in a democracy, and yet for fourty years, Moses built whatever he wanted, wherever he wanted, beholden to no one, since he was never once elected by the public.
And yes, he pushed through the fare raise from 5 to 10 cents, "To make the Subway more self-supporting," and then spent the money removed from the city's debt limit on yet more roads and bridges, none of which solved any traffic problems, but only created more traffic. -And more revenue from tolls that the public would never see to spend, since he hid within quasi-private Authorities.
You should read The Power Broker before you go on about what a great guy he was. Unless You're a Ceasar or Napoleon fan, then go ahead! :-)
That's what Moses did wrong, there's 1,200 pages of it in the book.
And yes, he pushed through the fare raise from 5 to 10 cents, "To make the Subway more self-supporting,"...
I happen to agree with a lot of what he did. Fare raises are needed, if subways aren't self supporting. His only mistake was not to put tolls on those great expressways he built. I like roads. They are a way to get around too. If they were priced appropriately, then transit will win even with no subsidy and charging passengers full fare. There is no reason to operate in a reduced-fare vacuum.
As for *where* he put the roads, there were specific instances where I had disagreed with him. Not knowing NYC very well, my examples aer BOS: Mass Pike is in the wrong place downtown, and I-93 is completely in the wrong place: it should have been built either underground or along the old Colony Line on an elevated structure. Destruction of neighbourhoods is bad, but road building is not bad, especially if it is tolled.
The Southeast Expressway should have been tolled.
AEM7
First, he gave away the Panama canal. Second he lost control of Iran. had we been able to hound onto Iran as our puppet in the middle east we could have continued lo-oil prices, no or a milder Saddam Heussien and NO 9/11 attacks. When we lost Iran, 1, it gave all those uppity middle eastern countries big ideas and 2, we lost our chief stabilizing factor in the region.
The loss of Iran was directly attributable to Carter's niave and totally inept forgien policy.
are you a republican? cause i wouldn't be too proud with the way G Dubya is handling his presidency.
and btw, no i do NOT believe gore was a much better choice. both are idiots.
I have said many times "The campaign for the Presidency is so long and so expensive in both money and personal integrity that those who would be the best for the country decide that it's not worth the pain you will suffer, so they drop out or never enter." That's why we get people like Shrub and Slick Willy and Daddy Bush.
wow. thats very profound and very true.
Also, since nobody can get in without huge financial backing, what we have is a plutocracy.
If we want a true democratic republic, then all campaigns must be funded publicly. Then there can be limits to what they can say since free speech wouldn't apply.
An excellent analysis. I have the report at home somewhere. A little operator action on the valves earlier would have prevented the whole thing.
Still, we learned a lot from the accident, and the operation of nuclear units since then have shown the results of this learning.
HaHaHa, good one. Microsoft has more money than MNRR has. I guess MNRR or MTA will have to declare bankrupcy and some other newly created state funded corporation will have to buy MNRR / MTA.
I didn't know the Missouri National Recreational River has signalling.
Damn, can't microsoft simply make it's sorce viewable? Not like to modify it but just look at it. Peer review is the best reason for open source. Also why does microsoft take normally 2 months to fix a security problem? It will aprear in 2600 (quarterly hacker/politects magazine) before microsft patches it. Apache web server security patches take from 2-6 hours to 2-3 days to show up on the web. Can microsft ever match that as a closed source propriatory OS?
Very nice post.
There are commercial operating systems out there which are very fault tolerant and secure. They cost more than NT and Unix, and programming in them is more of a chore. But the results are impressive.
Nowhere on MNRR does an NT box serve a vital function. All they are is glorified model boards. The NT station recieves various codes via lineside conduits and displays the information. To throw a switch or clear a route a code is sent that asks the lineside vital equipment to preform such an act. If the move voilates interlocking safety then it won't happen and it reports back. I think the only vital function on the NT boxes is blocking device handling (ie protecting track cars and MoW crews), but there are other safeguards for these as well.
Don't use microsoft. Their programing documantion is crap. Sure they have textbooks (2000+ pages). But what about non-eye-candy? The inside of the OS is as locked up as the Roswell files. They only relese tiny parts of OS API on the kernal side. And documantation for DOS based OSes is absolut crap, nt/2k has better documantion. Still you do have to pay $1000-$3000 a year for the MSDN subsciption to findout what little they offer. All propriatory, all bad. As a good friend told me once. If it is secret and big, it can't be good!
One thing to consider also is that if you have 1000 CPU's running flawed software or a flawed OS, chances are they'll all agree and put the train on the ground anyway. Multiplicity of error doesn't make for a corrected outcome. :)
While that's always a possibility, practical experience with redundant systems proves that the concept works very very well. Deciding against one based on your comment would be like deciding not to use a seat belt because you wanted to be thrown clear in a car accident - never plan for the 1% of the other 99% are more likely to cream you.
Do you work with low-fault tolerant systems?
Do you work with low-fault tolerant systems?
Safety critical systems are NOT low-fault tolerant. They are error-free. Signalling system is not fault tolerant. It must be error free.
No errors will be permitted. Every possible execution path for the safety-critical software must be mathematically proven to work correctly. No ifs and no buts.
AEM7
Actually, not really true. They are not perfectly error-free; rather, the probability of a system crash is claimed (realistically) to be less than 1 in 5,000 years.
here's the fun mathematical part:
1 in 5,000 years is STILL a 50% chance of a problem occurring. That's right, 50/50 chance, and it IS mathematically sound.
every time you run that software, there's a 50% chance that this could be that 1 time in the 5,000 years.
1 in 5,000 years is odds, not probability.
I think maybe you need to elaborate on that, because I've lost you.
I think he's alluding to the fact that even if the system has a probability of failing one time in 5,000 years, if the distrubution is truly random then you don't know when it's going to occur. i.e. the next time you run the software the glitch could show up, or it might never show up for a million years. Also if you've just had a glitch condition, it doesn't mean that the next time you run the software the glitch is any less likely to show up because you have "used up" your glitch quota for the next 5,000 years, as it were.
I don't believe the 50% chance thing is mathematically sound, although you could argue that in Basian Math, if you don't know when something is going to happen, then the odds (not the probability) may as well be 50% since you have no further information to determine whether it will happen for you or not, thus it's strictly a TRUE/FALSE situation. But if you KNOW that the event occurs on average once every 5,000 years, then the probability is clearly not 50%.
AEM7
Unless you carry out said program once every 2,500 year, in which case the probability would be 50%.
If you run a program with a failure probability of 1 in 5,000 years, given that the "normal" operating condition of the program is at least every day, the probability of a glitch occuring if you actually run the program only once in 2,500 years is not 50%. It is 1 in 5,000 spread over (2,500) X (5,000).
"I think he's alluding to the fact that even if the system has a probability of failing one time in 5,000 years, if the distrubution is truly random then you don't know when it's going to occur. i.e. the next time you run the software the glitch could show up, or it might never show up for a million years. Also if you've just had a glitch condition, it doesn't mean that the next time you run the software the glitch is any less likely to show up because you have "used up" your glitch quota for the next 5,000 years, as it were."
Your description sounds reasonable. It's called the probability of an event without replacement (eg you don't subtract 1 from the number of beans when you pull one out of this bag - it's assumed to be an endless supply). So you could theoretically actually end up with 4 glitches in 5,000 years - but you could also have none for 5,000 years and then 5,000 years after that.
"I think he's alluding to the fact that even if the system has a probability of failing one time in 5,000 years, if the distrubution is truly random then you don't know when it's going to occur. i.e. the next time you run the software the glitch could show up, or it might never show up for a million years. Also if you've just had a glitch condition, it doesn't mean that the next time you run the software the glitch is any less likely to show up because you have "used up" your glitch quota for the next 5,000 years, as it were."
Your description sounds reasonable. It's called the probability of an event without replacement (eg you don't subtract 1 from the number of beans when you pull one out of this bag - it's assumed to be an endless supply). So you could theoretically actually end up with 4 glitches in 5,000 years - but you could also have none for 5,000 years and then 5,000 years after that.
As to the rest of his post, it sounds bogus, but I want to hear him out.
AEM7's explanation is almost exactly what I mean.
If you have an HIV test for example, which you administer and find to be 99% accurate in determining if you have HIV or not, there's a chance that the next person that takes the test may be in the 1% that receives an incorrect response. Or that person may not.
Thus the any person has a 50% chance of a correct result when taking the HIV test, not 99%. This ALSO means that EVERY time you take the test there's a 50% chance it may be wrong. 99% is simply the average amount of times it is correct (on the whole). It does not show the chance that YOUR test may be accurate.
Another explanation:
You flip a balanced coin with one side as Heads, other side as Tails. You flip 100 times and get 99 Heads, and only 1 Tails. Does this mean that when flipping a coin you have a 99% chance of getting Heads? We know the answer is no because logic tells us the chance is 50/50.
My third example:
I go to play the New York Lottery. The ODDS are 1 in 45,057,474 that I will win. However, the CHANCE that I will win any time I play is 50% because either I win, or I don't win. It's all logic.
All these examples are the same as the software issue with the AirTrains.
Once in 5,000 years simply means THE ODDS ARE one error will occur in 5,000 years.You may have a series of runs of the software where you receive an error EVERY TIME you run it for a week, then never again. This is why sometimes the errors cannot be reproduced in software tests, yet are experienced later on.
Hope this has cleared it up. And it IS mathematically sound because I spent months studying this phenomenon in my Statistics class.
You flip a balanced coin with one side as Heads, other side as Tails. You flip 100 times and get 99 Heads, and only 1 Tails. Does this mean that when flipping a coin you have a 99% chance of getting Heads? We know the answer is no because logic tells us the chance is 50/50.
I think that really is a philosophical issue. Conventional statistics suggests that if you *know* that the probability of getting a TRUE is 1%, then if you took a sample of ONE test result, you still have a probability of 1% of getting a TRUE result. The issue you talk about arises when you are trying to determine with 100% confidence whether a given SINGLE sample is accurate. Where the probability of getting a TRUE is anything other than 0%, you cannot say with 100% confidence that a SINGLE sample is accurate. However you can say with 99% confidence that it is correct (if the probability of getting a TRUE is 1%).
Sorry if that didn't make sense, I've forgotten most of my statistics. But, it's basically a philosophical issue surrounding the key question: "How much INFORMATION do you have about the sample".
AEM7
AEM i understand your "philosophical" issue and you are sort of correct with your one percent explanation, but mathematically, a balanced coin has a 50/50 chance for each side. in my example, you just happened to get heads in each of those 50/50 tosses.
Well, yeah, obviously, although the coin tossing situation is not applicable to the train software glitch. Basically, you are saying since we cannot know analytically what is the P(software fuckup), we have to assume it's 50%. That's clearly bogus. We can know P(software exhibit fuckup in n runs) but we cannot know P(software fuckup in a given run). In the absense of other information, we can make the assumption that P(software exhibit fuckup in n runs)/n = P(software fuckup in a given run). If you make n large enough, Central Limit Theorem allows you to make that assumption. But that's all it is, an assumption.
AEM7
no its not bogus. that assumption is as you said an assumption. every time you do something with that software, it either works, or it doesnt. just cause it works more times than it doesnt doesn't change the chance, only the odds.
In fact, come to think of it, it can be a lot more complicated than that. All we can really know in a testing scenario is often P(software has not exhibited a fuckup yet in n runs). Frequently, especially if the implementation is sound, you will never see a fuckup during the testing phase. So all you can say is that you've accumulated 15,000 fault-free miles. But this may be due to a fluke, as you suggest with your coin example.
But if you allow n=15,000 to be large (which it is, CLT requires n>about 30 for about 95% confidence), then you can say that the P(fuckup) is less than 1/15,000. But this requires you make the assumption that P(fuckup exhibited in n trials)/n = P(fuckup on a given trial).
AEM7
once again you are correct if you're determining odds, not the chance of a result in a single run.
you and i are arguing completely different points.
Not really. You need to read this or if you can understand it, this.
Disclaimer: I have problems understanding the latter link.
AEM7
i dont care if you believe me or not, i know i'm right. this is the last post i'm making on the subject so lets agree to disagree.
i'm right about my part and you're right about yours.
AEM-7 is offering you a chance to learn something you don't know. Further, he's giving you the appropriate material to read on a silver platter.
If you arrogantly turn him down, it's your loss.
i read his material. i learned a lot. that's why im saying hes right about his part. don't mistake confidence for arrogance.
Thanks for posting that. Very good references.
Obviously, somebody needs to go back to class...
don't give me that ron.
*LOL* Ron gives me that crap from time to time :-) Don't take it personally... Here, a insult can not be given, it can only be taken!
For the record, David Cole appears to have learned not to take my insults anymore. Go David Go!
AEM7
Only when you've worked hard to earn it... :0)
One of the things that happens when you get to 40, is you turn around and wonder how your own foolishness let you survive being 22...
Really liked your explanation of stats and your programming story.
One of the things that happens when you get to 40, is you turn around and wonder how your own foolishness let you survive being 22...
That's kinda weird. I think that is sort of an age-group thing. Some people mature earlier than others, but then it's not "wrong" to be immature, well at least in my opinion it isn't. Even I can look back and see some of the attitudes I had at 18 were kinda stupid, but then I still don't feel that they should have been any different; after all, that was the kind of attitudes many 18 year olds held, and even more 25 year olds still hold. Ever witnessed a bar fight? I've seen a lot of 30somethings act like they are 14 and "jus' hangin'" out on the streets.
There are times I wish I didn't have to behave. It's so annoying not being able to be irresponsible again and let the parents clear up the mess. I wonder if life ever gets any easier.
AEM7
"That's kinda weird. I think that is sort of an age-group thing. Some people mature earlier than others, but then it's not "wrong" to be immature, well at least in my opinion it isn't."
I agree with your opinion.
"Ever witnessed a bar fight? I've seen a lot of 30somethings act like they are 14 and "jus' hangin'" out on the streets."
I've had to clean up the aftermath of that bar fight in the ER. Not fun. You can be 50 and still act like a moron.
"There are times I wish I didn't have to behave. It's so annoying not being able to be irresponsible again and let the parents clear up the mess."
Ever consider what a wife is for? (just kidding, I don't want to get you into trouble with a girlfriend...)
" I wonder if life ever gets any easier. "
It gets easier - and harder, all at the same time.
Ron
It's so annoying not being able to be irresponsible again and let the parents clear up the mess. I wonder if life ever gets any easier.
Yes, providing you are willing to accept responsibility for your actions and learn from your mistakes. My older daughter is 35 now and she's just now figuring that out (her husband hasn't yet, and he's 38, but then again he never was the brightest bulb in the chandelier... nice guy anyway, but...) I've cleaned up a mess or two for her over the years, and the same goes for my other three children as well. Took me a while to appreciate how much my father really knew about life too; just wish I had understood what he was saying sooner. Fortunately, I managed to turn what almost everyone said would be the biggest mistake of my life - getting married - into the best thing that ever happened to me, but it didn't come without a lot of hard work and the willingness to revel in the responsibility that I was accepting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It would be interesting to hear your wfe's take on it... :0)
It would be interesting to hear your wfe's take on it... :0)
Fortunately, I think she'd agree :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You flip a balanced coin with one side as Heads, other side as Tails. You flip 100 times and get 99 Heads, and only 1 Tails. Does this mean that when flipping a coin you have a 99% chance of getting Heads? We know the answer is no because logic tells us the chance is 50/50.
Have you studied Central Limit Theorem?
AEM7
no i havent
but i stand by my post.
it is statistically correct.
It sounds like what you are doing is confusing probability with the number of states that are possible,
In a dichtomous choice situation, there are only two states possible: we can call them 0 and 1, or A and B etc.
You do NOT have a 50% chance of selecting A just because B is the only other possible choice. You have a 0 percent chance of choosing C, because C is impossible in that example. If you think that's true, you were not paying attention in class.
"If you have an HIV test for example, which you administer and find to be 99% accurate in determining if you have HIV or not, there's a chance that the next person that takes the test may be in the 1% that receives an incorrect response. Or that person may not. "
But you don't know yet what the prevalence of the disease is in the population.
Look, you're mixing up terms and concepts here. I strongly suggest, that if you're interested, you review your statistics carefully, because what you are posting here is neither sound nor logical.
ron when i know im right i wont listen to you telling me i'm not being sound nor logical. in the HIV test example, you dont need to know the prevalence of the disease to tell whether a test will be accurate. 99% accurate means that it still has a chance of error in the results. If i went for the test, either the results will be accurate, or they will not. 50/50. i may be diagnosed with HIV even if i dont (false positive), or the test may accurately tell that i don't have HIV. it's a simple 50/50 problem REGARDLESS of the reliability of the test and the "prevalence of the disease of the population"
remember, you were the one who said i lost you. and now you turn around and tell me i'm wrong. under a true random distribution, as AEM7 explained, the chance of a 99% accurate test producing the correct answer is still 50% in one trial. the test simply produces correct results 99% of the time. the 99% means on the whole. the 50% means the ONE test.
"Do you work with low-fault tolerant systems?"
Ummm ... yeah. We call them "customers" who pay our bills. Cheese off enough of them and they go away even if it's not YOUR fault that their machine is hosed. And lots of folks who have used our stuff for a long long time (hint: we never designed mutation capability into our software) have been reporting all sorts of strange things lately after "winders updates" that have kept me QUITE busy ... :)
ah you took the words right out of my mouth
garbage in, garbage out, whether it's one or one million processors
One thing to consider also is that if you have 1000 CPU's running flawed software or a flawed OS, chances are they'll all agree and put the train on the ground anyway.
The way to handle this possibility is to have two or more completely different programs written to accomplish a given task. Then to have two or more of these programs running on multiple machines and have all agree.
This reduces the problems posed by both faulty logic and faulty equipment.
At some point, it becomes cheaper to build relays.
Depends on what you want to accomplish. Stephen Baumann's approach is the correct one.
Proper design also wouldn't place everything under the control of one computer in one central location.
Chop a cable during construction, and that's it. Are the Airtrain cars at least smart enough to know if they don't hear from the signal/control system after x seconds, to dump?
Looks mostly like the system's suffering from 'feature creep' at this point. Take a basic concept (run trains aroun without bumping into each other), some idiot sugessts it needs to be centralized. Then sugessts it needs to run the pax info system, then automagic announcements, then....
At minimum, there should be a secondary system who's sole job is to establish and maintain safe operating limits, regardless of what the other system thinks.
Certainly the indiv. train cars should be able to "safe mode" themselves in the event of a local power failure in control center.
The Air Train cars are probably just like the older ICTS cars here in that as soon as it looses communication with the signalling system (from what I understand is a half-and-half computer and conventional wisdom designwise) you get an emergency brake application and puts an error light on on the cab console while the signalling system simultaneously redflags the disappearing train in the line's control room(s) and stoppes the one behind it a safe distance from it's last reported location, eventually snarling the line. Meanwhile, someone has to get to the train in error unless it has a driver on board, put it into Emergency Mode and drive it manually to an Entry Point marked by a wayside sign. Then, the train has to be re-entered into the Seltrack system. There are a bunch of other scenarios that differ in detail depending on a combination of factors involving the Seltrack system since it allows trains to be driven in Emergency mode, by ATO or semiautomatic where the driver operates the train manually in accordance to, and enforced by, the cab signalling display.
-Robert King
Or even better still: how about an NYCT style trip-arm feature for the AirTrain so if such a scenerio occurs, when a car/train approaches within a given distance to another car/train, the track-affixed arm trips the brakes on the 'offending' car/train.
Yeah, you could mechanically link the stop arm to a DETECTOR BAR! No relays necessary!
Ron, the thing about just add a relay is an inside joke with
Barraza. Were he not bent over an A-10 (k-swsssh-k) right now
he would be reading my post and unable to control his laughter.
There are three basic reasons why a computer control system
fucks up. 1) The sensors or actuators fail. 2) The processing
hardware fails (memory glitch, etc.) 3) The software has a bug
in it.
We can address (1) and (2) with hardware redundancy. But, if
you should have written for(i=0;ifor(i=0;i<=n;i++), your code will do the the wrong thing, and
each of your redundant processors will also do the exact same
wrong thing, and the error will go through.
This is a BIG issue in applying computers to signal systems,
and one which is still being debated in the industry. Up to
now, most computers were used in what are called non-vital
applications. I.e., the computer is the same as a human dispatcher
or tower operator. It can make a bad decision, but there are
vital, relay-based circuits in the field that perform certain
basic sanity checks (like are you trying to clear a signal into
an occupied track).
There are vital applications of computers, called Vital Signal
Processors. In addition to using fault-tolerant redundancy
methods on the hardware side, the software is kept as simple as
possible so that mathematical proofs of correctness can be
applied and the system can be reduced to relay equivalent. We
have 100 years of experience understanding typical relay-based
signal circuits and applications and the "algorithm" they
represent. If you tell me that an interlocking is controlled by
a VSP, I feel perfectly confident riding through there in the
first car. It is as good as a conventional plant.
However, what is being done in CBTC, and possibly in this SFO
case (although I admit I have no idea what system is being tried)
is to substitute proven, relay-equivalent algorithms for completely
new and "adaptive" algorithms. Unfortunately we don't really know
how to prove their correctness.
1) I was working on a Model 5, not an A-10 this morning.
2) I read a CBTC spec that included vital RELAY plants, and I have seen the racks. (I think -didn't dawn on me 'till later what they probably were)
Of course. CBTC includes conventional relay-based interlocking
plants and some fallback stops and track circuits.
WAIT.
CBTC, if I understand correctly, is communication based train control. While it doesn't have to involve moving block, the maximum benefit will come with moving block. Moving block means that the train's position is continunously sensed and a "block" of safe distance behind the train is kept free of other trains.
Now, unless I don't understand the principles of interlocking correctly, how on earth are you going to be able to "interlock" that space? There are no track circuits, there are no track occupancy records except a central "computer" that keeps track of occupied track space. Since occupied track space is infinitely variable, how the hell do you "interlock" this?
Interlocking relies on blocks which cannot be occupied at the same time. If the blocks are not definied by wayside features and physical hardware such as track circuits, how the hell are you going to "interlock" the damn thing except with computer logic?
AEM7
I'm sure you understand the difference between automatic and
interlocking signals, and the concept of interlocking plant limits,
so I won't launch into a length discussion of that.
CBTC essentially replaces the role of fixed, track-circuited blocks
and block signaling. It doesn't, at least in the TA implementation,
replace interlocking. Within interlocking limits, you will still
have track circuits, stop arms, switch motors, CC boxes and all
that stuff. CBTC will overlay through the interlocking to provide
speed control and separation of trains, but conventional interlocking
will be superior to prevent conflicting routes, throwing switches
under trains, etc.
And if for some reason the comm breaks down between train and wayside in "automatic" territory, the underlying track circuits will add an extra layer of protection.
And if for some reason the comm breaks down between train and wayside in "automatic" territory, the underlying track circuits will add an extra layer of protection.
In my view, there are no reason to further complicate a track-circuit based signalling system with CBTC. CBTC should not be an overlay over track-circuit based system but should replace such systems. If the state of art CBTC is not at a stage where it could be trusted to operate trains on its own, then it should not be deployed at all. Buying two systems (track circuits and CBTC) is a bit like buying a gas-turbine engine for your truck then piggybacking on a diesel just in case the gas-turbine failed. It's not cost effective. Of course you can make arguments like the diesel is a good backup and the gas-turbine produces performance enhancement when it works, but it's not cost effective.
AEM7
"Buying two systems (track circuits and CBTC) is a bit like buying a gas-turbine engine for your truck then piggybacking on a diesel just in case the gas-turbine failed. It's not cost effective. Of course you can make arguments like the diesel is a good backup and the gas-turbine produces performance enhancement when it works, but it's not cost effective. "
Actually, you posted a bad example. There are warships fitted with both diesel and gas turbine power plants because the diesel engines are efficient at low speeds (while the gas turbine sucks fuel like it's going out of style), while the gas turbines allow high speed and high acceleration rates when executing maneuvers.
But seriously, having two technologies in place with one as a backup is not always a bad idea. Your point about requiring CBTC to be reliable is a good one, though.
CBTC should not be an overlay over track-circuit based system but should replace such systems.
A pure CBTC system must assume that all trains that will ever be on the track that it controls are also CBTC equipped. The protection against the possiblity that non-CBTC equipped rolling stock being on the track is minimal track circuits.
And if for some reason the comm breaks down between train and wayside in "automatic" territory, the underlying track circuits will add an extra layer of protection.
They can provide this extra layer, only if they can be actuated. The spec for a train going into emergency (and all following trains) is a communications break of about 4 seconds. (2 seconds for the leader to react to the lack of communications and 2 additional seconds for the following trains to receive the stop order).
The track circuits would have to react within 4 seconds to provide an extra layer of protection. At 50 mph, this translates to a block length of about 300 feet. They are not planning to make the auxiliary block lengths so short.
If the wayside system loses communication with the train, wouldn't
it just allow the arm to come up in the middle?
If the wayside system loses communication with the train, wouldn't it just allow the arm to come up in the middle?
There would be 3 or 4 blocks for the Canarsie line's auxilliary block system. This would be adequate for providing 15 minute headways. So, there would be only 3 or 4 trippers.
Suppose the line were operating 15+ tph - 4 minute headways. There would be multiple trains on each of the auxiliary blocks. Suppose a train lost communication. Failsafe safety considerations must assume that the train has stopped at its last known location. The following trains must take appropriate action. The following train has already passed the trip arm for the current block.
The primary stimulus for emergency braking must come from within the train for any CBTC system. This may be either via communication from the controlling system or via the absence of any communication for a period of time.
3 or 4 track circuits for the ENTIRE canarsie line???!! I don't
think so. AFAIK the track circuits are supposed to be 1000' long.
Anyway, I think what Dave B. meant is that if the communications-based
stuff, well, loses communication, trains can be moved through
on manual block. Of course, you know how well THAT will go!
Well, they could use a staff system, like in controlled manual block.
Or station maintainers (on overtime!) every 1,200 feet with radios and and lamps.
Maybe some sort of other mechanical tally system based on detector bars.
That's yet another use for the the yellow third rail paddle. Just 15 feet of electrical tape makes it into a Baton!
3 or 4 track circuits for the ENTIRE canarsie line???!! I don't
think so. AFAIK the track circuits are supposed to be 1000' long.
AFAIK, the spec for the auxilliary wayside system (aws) is 10 tph operation. The travel time for the run from Rockaway Pky to 8th Ave is 35 minutes. This means that they can get away with as few as 4 track circuits. I do recall reading that there were that few but I could be wrong.
OTOH, one item available on the web indicates that one benefit for CBTC is that the aws would have blocks from station to station. This would eliminate the need for installing (and its expense) in the confined space in the tunnels between stations. This would indicate that there would be only 23 track circuits.
In any case, the question still remains how would a follower's brakes be actuated should the leader loose communication. If the system were operating at 20 tph (they did run 24 tph at one time), then there would be more than one train on an aws track circuit. A bar at the beginning of the block would not stop the follower, if it were already past it. The stimulus would have to come from the CBTC and not the AWS.
I could believe one track circuit per station. What's that, 2000'
on the average? There's just no way you're going to get a
track circuit working one or two miles long given the reality of
subway tunnels with steel dust and water conditions. You may be
thinking of block length as opposed to track circuit length.
The manual blocks might be as long as you suggest, but there would
have to be many underlying track circuits.
The trip arm doesn't have to be in front of the train to be
effective. If I were designing the system (well, first of all
I wouldn't be spec'ing CBTC, but.....) the wayside units
drive down the stops via vital outputs. If the "oh-shit" light
comes on inside the unit, it drops everything and all the arms
come up, tripping whatever trains happen to be over them or
approaching them. At the same time, the train-borne units
dump the trains. Yeah, both things better work. If you let
trains follow closely it could happen that there is no arm
under the train and the next arm in advance is too close to the
next train.
The reason for putting the arm at the beginning of the block is to regulate non-CBTC trains on entering a CBTC block.
I agree with much of what you say. And error #3 that you list was infact why the Ariane 5 blew up (saee my example in another post).
However, mission critical software has proven itself in areas such as spacecraft control (a friend of mine does that at Raytheon for satellites); aircraft control (B-2 bomber, F-117, F-22 cannot fly without a computer's input; two-crewman passenger aircraft rely on computers for flight engineering functions, and are now considered stable and reliable. While Philip Nasadowski is correct in that the NRC has not allowed computers to replace licensed operators in the control room, in fact fault-tolerant computer systems with an expected time between crashes of 5,000 years have been deployed in some newer plants. No doubt their software conforms to the kind of programming you are referring to.
But nothing should ever go into a passenger vehicle without thorough testing, and validation.
just add a relay is an inside joke
I had not read this, when I made my previous post.
3) The software has a bug in it.
The way the military handles this possibility is to award two or more different contracts and run both software systems as part of their redundant fault-detection system.
BTW, there is nothing unique about software bugs - relay networks have also been known to have bugs.
There are vital applications of computers, called Vital Signal Processors. In addition to using fault-tolerant redundancy methods on the hardware side, the software is kept as simple as possible so that mathematical proofs of correctness can be applied and the system can be reduced to relay equivalent.
Sounds remarkably like Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC's) which have been used for factory floor automation for the last 20 years.
Unfortunately we don't really know how to prove their [computer algorithms] correctness.
Actually what you want to do is prove both completeness and correctness simultaneously. That's impossible to do even for relay systems that are over 100 years old.
I'm not going to get into the Turing thing again! There is a whole
field of computer science dealing with mathematical proofs of
algorithm correctness.
A vital signal processor is basically a PLC. Its programming is
based on relay equivalence. The only difference is obviously
price and the design of the hardware to mitigate processor or
sensor/actuator failures (i.e. to make them fail safe).
Bergen Interlocking will be a VSP.
Relay-based "algorithms" can have bugs, yes. The point is the signal
industry has been using the same algorithms for nearly 100 years.
Their behavior is well-understood and thousands of signal engineers
over the years have meticulously analyzed the networks.
And never in the history of conventional interlocking was a plant put online and test trains run through it for 30 days in order to see if it worked properly, like in SFO.
Not that there aren't bugs, as Mr. Bauman says, there were and are, but back in the day, plants were cut over under traffic, and tested sucessfully.
What I disagree with is the "Fix in Rev.2" mentality, which seems pervasive in the software world -- where nobody gets their birthday taken away if there's a screwup. Luckily the Rev.1 accident in SFO only involved equipment and structure.
What I disagree with is the "Fix in Rev.2" mentality, which seems pervasive in the software world... Luckily the Rev.1 accident in SFO only involved equipment and structure.
No, not a matter of luck, a matter of life-and-death. In conventional signalling, the plant is tested outside hours (say between 0100 and 0400) when there's no other trains about and driven by specialist operators who are keeping a sharp lookout and other people with train-bourne equipment that's monitoring track circuit behaviour, etc. Signalling systems are fully "commissioned" before they are allowed to go live. Also, the logic is *much* simpler, so there are much less opportunity to make a mistake. Besides, the systems are engineered to guard against mistakes.
The SFO accident is serious. If it was really tested for a month before opening, and yet this kind of error occured in service, it goes to show that computers (of this design) cannot be relied upon to perform safety-critical operations. The "simple code" mentality to embedded systems is the correct one. Safety-critical systems should be deterministic and not tested probabilistically.
AEM7
No, not a matter of luck, a matter of life-and-death. In conventional signalling, the plant is tested outside hours (say between 0100 and 0400) when there's no other trains about and driven by specialist operators who are keeping a sharp lookout and other people with train-bourne equipment that's monitoring track circuit behaviour, etc. Signalling systems are fully "commissioned" before they are allowed to go live.
It might surprise you to know just how much vital equipment is serviced, or completely replaced, under normal traffic in NYC. Not ususally during rush hours, but especially "back in the day - before G.O. madness" whole plants would be brought online under 3-6 TPH traffic each direction.
Also, the logic is *much* simpler, so there are much less opportunity to make a mistake.
The basic safety logic is the same, using relays or computers, right? Two trains on the same track at the same time is not hard. It's not like the speed-calculation algorhythm was hinky.
Besides, the systems are engineered to guard against mistakes.
As should be their replacements...
A problem is that the number of old timers who understand how
to write tight and correct code is dwindling and the number
of yahoos who only know the world of WIN32, objects and code bloat
is increasing.
How are you ever supposed to write tight code when the OS itself contains about 1,000,000 API's and the reference manuals are like an entire bookshelf thick? I gave up writing software when Windows came along, it was just more stuff than I can carry in my head.
AEM7
Why should the operating system for such an application be in
any way remotely related to Winbloze? That's a general-purpose
desktop operating system. Its primary goal is friendliness to
the average user through a GUI (actually, the primary goal is
to eliminate competitive software, but that's another story).
It's unreasonable to expect something designed with that purpose
to be suitable for a completely different purpose. Even
UNIX-descended kernels like rtLinux are questionable, though leagues
beyond the micro$oft stuff. I would expect something like VMWare
or OS-9.
I wouldn't trust anything newer than Multics. :)
Yeah, you and I have to choot de chit one of these days. Nancy programmed in PL/1 (*not* PL/10, it's predecessor) ... working here can be a big dose of getting my nose rubbed in it, but her aspiration is to run a PCC. Damned geeks. Heh.
Even UNIX-descended kernels like rtLinux are questionable, though leagues beyond the micro$oft stuff. I would expect something like VMWare or OS-9.
Even VMWare and OS-9 are overkill for most real world control applications. I do not believe that pre-emptive multitasking is necessary or desirable for control applications. I prefer a cooperative multitasking system instead. This vastly simplifies the OS and puts the responsibility for preventing lockouts where it belongs - with the application.
Have you ever programmed on mainframes?
One of the error code entries in IBM's System 370 manual, a few inches thick, read this way: "Self explanatory"
A problem is that the number of old timers who understand how to write tight and correct code is dwindling and the number of yahoos who only know the world of WIN32, objects and code bloat is increasing.
There is a big difference between tight and correct code. The importance of correct code is paramount. However, tight code is no longer important because memory is cheap and processor speeds are high. Tightness, while esthetically pleasing, is not very important from an engineering and economic perspective.
There is aesthetic value in squeezing as much performance out of a processor that you can. Clearly, the art writing software does not keep up with advances in hardware. The Pentiums out there are not delivering to their full potential.
But the cost of creating tight code exceeds the benefits derived, as you correctly point out.
But the cost of creating tight code exceeds the benefits derived, as you correctly point out.
I would disagree. There is a balance somewhere, and today's OS's are too far to the "bloating" side of the balance. In fact, today's CPU's are too. Why do you think that the idt WinChip even had a chance at making money, with Cyrix, AMD, and intel all developing better processors out there?
The point is that bloated code is more likely to have errors due to its sheer size. Tight code, the sort which no one can read and relies on things like self-modification to make it work, is also prone to error because the programmer's logic is not infallible. But the sort of code that works exactly how it reads is what we need.
Example: Assembler hackers in the early days often rely on registers having a certain value after a certain operation -- useful and efficient, but CPU technology may change and code may be broken. Too tight.
On the other hand, if you were making a procedural call and you know that you only need the values of AX, BX, SS and CS preserved, then you only need to PUSH those four registers. No need to push all 200 of them.
AEM7
"Example: Assembler hackers in the early days often rely on registers having a certain value after a certain operation -- useful and efficient, but CPU technology may change and code may be broken. Too tight."
Yes, assuming you intend to run exactly the same code on the next model CPU. But (esp. if you are a purist) you shouldn't because the next model CPU deserves a program which runs it to full potential. If you're going to take the trouble and program in Assembler, isn't that the whole point?
Sloppy code is bad, but you have to ask yourself where the balance is (cost-benefit) in designing that code.
Example: Assembler hackers in the early days often rely on registers having a certain value after a certain operation -- useful and efficient, but CPU technology may change and code may be broken. Too tight.
It is very difficult to write any assembly code that will run on different cpu's. Register values have very little to do with this problem. Instruction sets are different, the numbers and size of registers are different, etc.
On the other hand, if you were making a procedural call and you know that you only need the values of AX, BX, SS and CS preserved, then you only need to PUSH those four registers. No need to push all 200 of them.
I assume from your choice of register names that you are referring to the 8086 series and not, say the IBM 360 whose 16 general purpose registers were named R0-R15.
Machines in the 8086 family, starting with the 80186 now have an instruction that saves all the registers at once (PUSHA/POPA). This eliminates the necessity of having to remember which registers the procedure really uses - at very little overhead cost. It also eliminates the possibility that somebody will later use another register in the procedure without bothering to check if it were explicitly pushed on entry and popped on exit. I have not kept up with the latest architectures, however I doubt that there are now anywhere near 200 registers. The use of memory cache has blurred the speed advantage for register over memory processing.
I am somewhat surprised at the choice of registers in your example. Playing with the contents CS and SS registers is fairly dangerous. The CS register is automatically pushed (and changed) on far calls. The usual way to change the CS register contents is through far calls/returns and far jumps. There is a similar problem with playing with the SS register which is the stack segmentation register. One would have to push and pop the SP register at the same time. The problem comes, when one considers the consequences of what happens when an interrupt occurs after the SS register has been changed. Perhaps you were thinking of the DS and ES registers?
It is usual for procedures on entry to: 1 - push the BP register; 2 - move the SP register to the BP; 3 - add the amount of local storage needed by the procedure to the SP register. This way the procedure can reference all passed parameters as being a positive offset to the BP register and all local variables as being a negative offset to the BP register. This may not be as "tight" as passing values through register but has the advantage of very little overhead and working in all cases.
It is very difficult to write any assembly code that will run on different cpu's...
Yes, but if you're talking about the x86 family, the x86 instruction set has become a de-facto microcode for anyone writing apps for the PC. The later generation CPU's are not actually "x86" based in the strict sense of the word. AMD's K6 was practically a RISC-based x86 emulator.
however I doubt that there are now anywhere near 200 registers. The use of memory cache has blurred the speed advantage for register over memory processing.
The later generaton of intel processors had more register than I care to remember: EAX, all the way up to EGX, and new segment registers FS and GS if I recall correctly. Of course, this depends on how you define registers: If I defined register as a 16-bit unit of on-CPU memory, then the amount of storage offered on-CPU by the latest MMX CPUs will easily surpass 200 16-bit units. That's what I meant. Doesn't MMX has something like a 25-element, 32-bit wide matrix which are considered "registers"? Not really efficient if you have to copy that amount of data to the stack if all you needed were AX, BX, CS and SS.
The use of memory cache has blurred the speed advantage for register over memory processing.
Not really. Especially in processors of today that loses up to 5 cycles on a cache miss (while a cache hit would be 1 cycle -- same as a register). If you're writing something really really processing intensive (like an MP3 decoder or something, not that I ever wrote one), then I imagine you want to keep as much of the data on-chip as possible when you do your Reverse Fourier Transform. I've seen MP3 decoders which are very slow, and other ones that are very fast, presumably because the coder didn't think about this kind of thing.
The problem comes, when one considers the consequences of what happens when an interrupt occurs after the SS register has been changed...
Yeah, yeah, good point. I've not been an x86 assembly programmer for long enough, evidently. I was intentionally referring to the CS register (and I should have also stated that I needed to preserve IP, SS, SP, BP, etc.) I guess I should have just said "AX and BX".
AEM7
but if you're talking about the x86 family, the x86 instruction set has become a de-facto microcode for anyone writing apps for the PC.
The x86 family is not the only cpu around. I'm was talking about migrating assembly from an x86 to a 6800x, etc.
The later generaton of intel processors...ill easily surpass 200 16-bit units.
You mean the generation of processors that has a 32 bit bus?
If you're writing something really really processing intensive (like an MP3 decoder or something...
We are talking about control systems for railroads. My guess is that any program would be idle 99.99% of the time with an 8086 running at 4.77 MHz.
then I imagine you want to keep as much of the data on- chip as possible when you do your Reverse Fourier Transform.
No, you would want to put a Digital Signal Processor (DSP) in your hardware design.
I was intentionally referring to the CS register (and I should have also stated that I needed to preserve IP, SS, SP, BP, etc.) I guess I should have just said "AX and BX".
Only if the procedure is re-entrant and uses these extra registers. Are you confusing context switches with procedure calls?
I do need to argue though that TIGHT code is a whole lot easier to TRACE when there is a problem. It IS possible to do both, but you're not going to get "tight" with any of the "IDE wizards" that are out there today. And turning loose Microsoft's "class wizard" can turn a few K of code into MEGS. :)
The code wizards often introduce a lot of garbage you don't need.
Heh. One of the things I always got a kick out of when I'd look over code was this little piece of humor:
#define WINDOWS_LEAN_AND_MEAN
Hahahahahahahahahaha ...
Funny indeed. Wouldn't that result in an "oxymoron" error on compilation?
:0)
You'd THINK! Heh. But no, you get zero warnings, zero errors and all sorts of additional code that never gets used. In particular about 580k of DDE stuff for dropping documents onto an icon whether the code needs to do that or not, and a raft of internet connectivity that you'll never use. I have yet to see the reason for winsock code to click an "OK" button on a box, but apparently Billy knows something us code bangers don't. Obviously, there must be some need to connect to an FTP server to shut down a program that I don't understand. :)
There is something to be said for having a standardized code library. Turbo Pascal had those "unit" things which you had to include if you wanted even ONE function out of the entire library. Then the code from the entire library gets linked into the executable and a "Hello World" might cost you 8,000 bytes and needs at least 16,000 of memory free to execute.
I never really understood why they did this, but maybe it was because it was easier to compile code that way. Technically, the compiler could work out which functions are used and which aren't, and the compiler could exclude the code from the module that isn't actually required by the main program. Maybe it's to allow dodgy things like the "External;" directive (which allowed you to link an object into a module, and you could refer to it, even though the "procedure" never gets called. Instead the procedure became a way of defining a "hook" to refer to a piece of data embedded in code, or a piece of assembler code).
On the other hand, Windows is just too bloated.
AEM7
Well, GOOD coders will actually cut and paste from the include files into a file of their own, using only the "library bits" they need. GOOD compilers come with the source code for the LIBRARIES so you can link up your own.
A typical behavior of assembly coders writing for WINDERS is each and every one has their own specific set of WINDOWS.INC which contains only the definitions for those functions they use. Here in our own wirebarn, we have code modules in a master library that are separated out to specific functions. So we just plug in what we need and don't include anything we don't.
That's why, for example, our BOClean antitrojan software upon compile weighs in at a hefty 101k (there's a lot going on in there) while semi-comparable products come in at 4 megs or more. :)
Wow, yeah and if you're writing daemons, being lean is very important. I frequently delete anti-virus software from the college computers, because they make the workstation run too slow. (And you wonder about Windows NT security that will allow a non-privileged user to delete executables designed to scan for viruses).
I'm sorry to say, I was one of those lazy coders who didn't have that many different libraries. But then, I wasn't writing a really memory critical thing either. Usually, anything you compile under Turbo Pascal is lean enough to begin with, considering that you have only 640K to play with and it's a single tasking environment. But then, it might just be because I've never written big apps.
AEM7
Pascal is the overwhelming choice of ne'er-do-wells to write their nasties (lots of folks don't know Delphi *is* Pascal, but that's OK since WINDOWS IS ALSO!) but with Billy playing leaky dike with so many "security bandaids that just bugger things up worse and don't close the holes) I tend to write a good bit of our own code in ANSI C and still use a 5 year old Borland compiler to do most of it. By doing so, I can call WINAPI if I really need to, but also have the freedom to say fook that, I'm calling INT21 inline ...
Another advantage I have is that given our business is computer security and privacy in general, we've taken the effort to uncover MANY undocumented kernel functions and do a lot of our tricks in "ring zero" directly calling these functions through the kernel. But you need to do your own pushes and pops to make it all work, fooling Windows into believing that WINDOWS did that, so it's OK. :)
We've learned PLENTY by dissecting viruses and trojans and sadly, the only people writing decent code these days are the authors of MALWARE.
By tight I don't necessarily mean using clever tricks to save
cycles and memory. I mean keeping the design as clean and
minimalist as possible. Every line of code is a chance for error.
Today's prevailing software model is to build things with layers
upon layers upon layers of code with "black-box" interfaces.
That's great for certain applications, like GUIS, airline reservation
systems, etc., but absolutely not what you want to do for life safety
critical applications. There is also the issue of processor design.
You want a simple processor, not a super-scalar architecture with
3-levels of cache. There are often subtle bugs in complex,
general-purpose processors.
I mean keeping the design as clean and minimalist as possible. ...Today's prevailing software model is to build things with layers
upon layers upon layers of code with "black-box" interfaces.
Today's approach resulted from past abuses. The premium is in designing the interfaces properly. Unfortuantely, such design is usually done after the code is written and not before.
You want a simple processor, not a super-scalar architecture with 3-levels of cache. There are often subtle bugs in complex, general-purpose processors.
Simple processors also have subtle bugs. I'm partly responsible for the A rev. in one of intel's embedded processors. They forgot that they had to defer the response to an interrupt by one instruction when executing certain instructions.
The only difference is obviously price and the design of the hardware to mitigate processor or sensor/actuator failures (i.e. to make them fail safe). Bergen Interlocking will be a VSP.
From what I've seen the major difference is the price. Every commercial (A/B, Fanuc, etc) PLC that I've seen comes with processor fault detection. Sensor/actuator failures could be handled rather cheaply through redundancy.
Relay-based "algorithms" can have bugs, yes. The point is the signal industry has been using the same algorithms for nearly 100 years. Their behavior is well-understood and thousands of signal engineers over the years have meticulously analyzed the networks.
The discipline of switching theory dates from dates from Claude Shannon's 1940 master's thesis. Additional work in the field did not resume until after World War II with the most productive period being between 1948 and 1965. Most switching systems designed prior to this time were really art and not engineering. The railroad application in particular offers a very low rate of switching state transitions. Even 50 years of successful service would not probably exercise a fault state that happens once every 100K transitions.
Gee, I had a failure last month with one of those off-the-shelf
PLCs (it was an A-B). Seems the relay controlling a valve in the
condenser water system was energized when it shouldn't have been.
Was it the relay? Nope. The PLC's output was hosed and it was
putting out voltage when it shouldn't have been.
Point being, Vital Signal Processors are designed, fault analyzed
and tested from the ground-up with Vital, Fail-Safe operation
as the exclusive goal. PLCs are merely designed to give a
commercial grade of reliability. There is a difference.
Shanon may have been the first to start writing equations describing
switching networks, but the craft was around long before that.
We've had electric interlocking and automatic block signals for
100 years now. The typical circuits and practices evolved from
those years of experience, and mistakes made along the way.
A fault state that is 1 in 1e5 may take a while, but think of
all the years of operation of all the railways using that same
circuit. I think by now if there were a major bug in, e.g.,
check locking, we'd know about it. In addition to empirical
evidence, all of these circuits have been rigorously analyzed
during modern times, using those mathematical techniques. A lot
more than can be said for CBTC.
Gee, I had a failure last month with one of those off-the-shelf PLCs (it was an A-B). Seems the relay controlling a valve in the condenser water system was energized when it shouldn't have been. Was it the relay? Nope. The PLC's output was hosed and it was putting out voltage when it shouldn't have been.
Was there an input sensor monitoring the valve, or the output signal to it? That's what I meant by providing the same safety capability through sensor redundancy.
Shanon may have been the first to start writing equations describing switching networks, but the craft was around long before that.
That's exactly what I said - it was "craft" or "art", not engineering before 1940.
We've had electric interlocking and automatic block signals for 100 years now. The typical circuits and practices evolved from those years of experience, and mistakes made along the way. A fault state that is 1 in 1e5 may take a while, but think of all the years of operation of all the railways using that same circuit. I think by now if there were a major bug in, e.g., check locking, we'd know about it.
The difference between a major and minor bug might be the length of time that the network remained in a fault state. If there were a fault state that nobody had been around to observe, then those 100 years expierience don't prove much about proving safety for all conditions.
In addition to empirical evidence, all of these circuits have been rigorously analyzed during modern times, using those mathematical techniques.
I'm relieved to know that they rely on something more rigorous than their collective experience.
A lot more than can be said for CBTC.
CBTC is a technology designed to prevent incremental improvement in existing plant - including cost. It is an equipment supplier's dream.
> It is an equipment supplier's dream.
Ah, there it is, the inner truth.
Was there an input sensor monitoring the valve, or the output signal to it? That's what I meant by
providing the same safety capability through sensor redundancy.
That's one technique that is used in Vital processors. If the
sensed outputs don't match the command, the vital stop relay
drops power to everything. The other major design difference is
that the output stages are transformer isolated. To drive an output,
the processor must generate a square wave within a certain freq range.
The waveform is passed through a tuned LC circuit then to a
transformer. On the secondary side of the transformer is a rectifier
to create the DC. The transformer is insulated to something like
5 or 10kV. There is basically no reasonable fault that can cause
a false drive. Optocouplers don't cut it...the phototransistor can
easily short through.
The other major design difference is that the output stages are transformer isolated. To drive an output, the processor must generate a square wave within a certain freq range. The waveform is passed through a tuned LC circuit then to a transformer. On the secondary side of the transformer is a rectifier to create the DC. The transformer is insulated to something like 5 or 10kV. There is basically no reasonable fault that can cause a false drive. Optocouplers don't cut it...the phototransistor can easily short through.
This provides protection against a computer failure at every output. It does not protect against a hardware failure that you mentioned that was after the isolation. The only way to guard against that is to have independent (redundant) sensors to verify that all commands are executed.
It is highly unlikely that that a computer failure will affect only one output. A single watchdog timer which monitors that a single event occurs within a certain period of time should be all that is required for for protection against computer failures.
I've known optocouplers to have their output short out - I've not known many to short out between input and output. Such failures are usually traced to the wiring and not the opto. Similarly, I've seen more transformers have insulation faiures between primary and secondary.
I think that there are no performance benefits to having each output have its own watchdog timer other than to enrich the suppliers' pockets.
Valid point, but the one good thing about DC conversion from the output of a transformer is that if a winding DOES short, there won't be enough AC to create much of a charge pump on the other side of the failed windings. It DOES strike me as a better concept than opto-isolators. Murphy notwithstanding.
It does not protect against a
hardware failure that you mentioned that was after the isolation.
Not sure what you mean. Where you hook up to the VSP output is
equivalent to a vital contact. You can trust that energy is only
present on that output when it should be. What you do with it
after that is up to you, but generally it gets hooked up to something
else that's vital, like a vital relay.
Monitoring the output with an additional input is a good technique.
In the signal world, nothing happens in milliseconds, so if the green
light comes on for 50ms before it gets detected and shut down, or
if the switch unlocks, or whatever, I guess it's not the end of the
world, although most signal engineers would be uncomfortable.
The problem with relying on monitoring is that it is also not
fail-safe. Whatever surge blew through the output phototransistor
of your optoisolator may have also blown out the input LED on
the input optoisolator. So, your output is stuck on but you
see it off. I suppose an out would be to periodically strobe
the output for a time period that is too short to do any harm,
like 1 mS, and verify that the sensor picks up both transitions.
I've known optocouplers to have their output short out - I've not known many to short out between input
and output. Such failures are usually traced to the wiring and not the opto. Similarly, I've seen more
transformers have insulation faiures between primary and secondary
Quite correct! Optoisolators generally provide the advertised
isolation between sides. The only time I've seen that fail
has been when the PCB designer has the input and output traces
running with .010" between them! But, the optoisolator does not
transfer energy between primary and secondary. It is in effect
an insulated knife switch. In order to use it to, say, turn on
a light bulb, you have to provide the energy on the secondary
side, and you put the isolator output between the load and V-.
What happens when the output phototransistor fails in a common
failure mode, i.e. shorts C-E? Your load gets stuck on.
Transformers come in all shapes. Yeah, if you wind primary and
secondary overlapped, you're asking for breakdown. If you insulate
the piss out of the core and put the windings on opposite sides
you can make a transformer that can easily withstand 10kV.
Performance is almost alwas improved through feedback. I can think of only one counter example (which does not apply to this case). The engineering question is whether it is better to invest in feedback or invest in making the excitation error free and run open loop. The engineering decision has almost invarariably been to use feedback to correct imperfect excitation and come up with a product whose overall performance exceeds any open loop system. Your description of an the VSP appears to represent another open loop system whose performance can be surpassed more cheaply thourgh feedback or what I have referred to as redundant inputs in my previous posts.
In the signal world, nothing happens in milliseconds, so if the green light comes on for 50ms before it gets detected and shut down, or if the switch unlocks, or whatever, I guess it's not the end of the world, although most signal engineers would be uncomfortable
If they are uncomfortable, I'd challenge them to calculate the delay inherent in the LC rectifier. I'll bet they will experience much more delay on extinguishing an output.
The problem with relying on monitoring is that it is also not fail-safe. Whatever surge blew through the output phototransistor of your optoisolator may have also blown out the input LED on the input optoisolator.
There's a lot less problem on the input side. Most opto isolator inputs designed for the factory floor come with MOV's or similar input protection. They'll take a few Kv without winking.
I suppose an out would be to periodically strobe the output for a time period that is too short to do any harm, like 1 mS, and verify that the sensor picks up both transitions.
Yes, there are advantages to having feedback.
The only time I've seen that fail has been when the PCB designer has the input and output traces running with .010" between them!
The routing for PCB's are computer designed these days. I guess the engineer forgot to specify a minimum distance for some critical lands.
Yeah, if you wind primary and secondary overlapped, you're asking for breakdown. If you insulate the piss out of the core and put the windings on opposite sides you can make a transformer that can easily withstand 10kV.
You are already loosing 36% of your excitation energy through the LC circuit. I would think that one would not want to loose any more through transformer losses and use a bifilar winding. If you want to compensate for transformer losses by increasing excitation (and transformer size) and add cost - go ahead. Similarly, if you want to use a torroid core instead of an E-shaped laminate go ahead and add more to the cost. Eventually some bean counter will read the riot act for such unnecessary costs. :-)
But, the optoisolator does not transfer energy between primary and secondary. It is in effect an insulated knife switch. In order to use it to, say, turn on a light bulb, you have to provide the energy on the secondary side, and you put the isolator output between the load and V-. What happens when the output phototransistor fails in a common failure mode, i.e. shorts C-E? Your load gets stuck on.
Which is why you put a redundant input at the light bulb's excitation and feed it back to the PLC or computer. If you are super paranoid you will also have a photo detector to make sure the light bulb has not burned out.
BTW, relay contacts have been known to weld shut - especially when abused. I used to have a couple of technicians work for me who were quite adept at that, even when I thought the relays were placed in fairly benign environments.
OH GAWD how your words, "Eventually some bean counter will read the riot act for such unnecessary costs. :-) " hit home with that. If I only had a nickel for every time I tried to convince EXECUTONE (EXCRETONE? Yes Virginia, Selkirk TMO once got off the train at Court Square (for TOO many manufacturers like Matsushita and SONY) for a living when NOT "(ta)"
Yes, PROPERLY designing electronics (I was a proponent at Excretone for replacing those POS leaf switches with nice 74LS and momentary switches (remember my R1/9-R10 obsession here if you will) that would "modernize phones" and "let them remember the LAST number that threw you a busy signal) ... wonder why Executone died? They didn't listen to their TMO. Heh. Seriosuly, Excretone didn't want to head about anything BUT leaf-switches because they had building wide VACUUM and presses that ran on it that would "blow" leafswitches.
I designed them some neat "loop hunting and capture" stuff before there were "computers for telephone circuit routing" ... they didn't care for such esoteric stuff, so I got fired. Spent most of my life designing "ahead of the curve" ... work for the wife now doing just that again, except people actually BUY our stuff! :)
NICE to know that there's STILL a few brain cells in the industry!
You and wife are both software developers?
Wow, your kids could be the next Bill Gates, or Linus Torvalds.
AEM7
BITE ME! :)
Nancy runs da business and deals with the "CEO STUFF", while I write the code and deal with folks who come to us and blame ME for ruining their life. So in addition to writing the best code I can to PREVENT email to "support", I'm held responsible for a number of cockups by OTHER vendors who sell hoseware ... only difference is *I* answer the email, and FIX the problems caused by others. It's a FULL WAKING TIME JOB however ... we take care of ALL the time zones on the planet, which is why I'm roasted, toasted, and making an ARSE of myself here after being awake 20 hours in the WRONG time zone and I've turned to stupid to stop drooling on my shirt.
THAT'S when I come to subtalk. If I screw up *HERE*, nobody dies. :)
What type of software do you write? I've always wanted to try software writing..
Priacy and anti-trojan horse security type stuff. For a better idea of what I get apid to pull to here, www.nsclean.com. Putting in a link would be inappropriate ... but check out the site, it sorta explains why I get no sleep. :)
Priacy
Piracy?
Damned beer-stained keyboards! PRIVACY. Whoops. :)
What those "FBI is watching you" hosers are trying to peddle, our stuff has worked for YEARS before "Evidence Eliminator" came along with "your computer is filled with filth and WE caught you! And you're GOING to jail for it" ... gimme a break. But yeah,l we do what those slime do (and much more) for a quarter the price. AND ... we've got scruples! :)
But yeah, we give Ashcroft a busy signal with what we make. Unless you wear a turbine of course. Heh.
I just tested my computer with your CALC.EXE exploit thing. Nothing showed up. heh. I actually disabled scripting not for security reasons but more to stop annoying ad windows from popping up.
My computer at home is full of security holes, on the other hand. The thing is though, because it's running such outdated crap (Win95) and I read email on PINE running on a Sun box, I'm pretty safe... (well, I'm pretty safe until I start doing unsafe things...)
AEM7
Yep, MOST people love those delightful jerking postage stamp neato Aiyee animations, and IF you have Microsoft's Java and scripting LIT, your machine can end up in a whole lotta hurt. The code WE write eliminates the need to have your OWN personal computer geek looting your fridge. :)
We do it for ya if you can't do it yerself. But for a lot of people, that test works very well ... pity.
NICE to know that there's STILL a few brain cells in the industry!
I'm retired. :-)
EXPLAINS EVERYTHING! Heh. So am I, technically a "state retiree" myself, but got better. Write software for a living (did it for years OUT of title) and took all that worthless "State network admin" awareness of "hey, since we dumped Netware for NTee, we had 650 hackers trashing the system last night, let's ditch this crap and go back to Netware." Your document on "stranded costs for nuclear power plants in NYS" just got ripped by Greenpeace only fell on deaf ears. Now, it's not my fault anymore. :)
OH the thrills of working for the sausage works where the most recently appointed member of the "lost electricity reclamation agency oversight committee" comes storming through the glass doors demanding a personal powerpoint presentation. NYS government *IS* Dilbert on methamphetamine. rabiits out of a hat, baked fresh daily. Don't miss it *ONE* bit.
Most opto isolator inputs designed for the factory floor
come with MOV's or similar input protection. They'll take a few Kv without winking.
How many times? MOVs fail silently. How well do you think
these controllers would perform when lightning hits the input
line directly?
You are already loosing 36% of your excitation energy through the LC circuit. I would think that
one would not want to loose any more through transformer losses and use a bifilar winding.
I don't think you get signal engineering. Yeah, it's electrical
engineering the same as factory floor or aviation applications,
but the value system is different. First of all, unlike avionics,
STOP is the safest state. Second, compared to the factory
floor, safety has a higher weight relative to cost. I guarantee
no one gives a rat's ass about iron losses in a little coupling
transformer. You're talking about milliwatts. Each light bulb
is 18W typical. Each track circuit is about 100W continuous draw
when unoccupied. Similarly, size is not a big issue. When the
typical DPDT vital signal relay occupies the volume of about 25
ice cube relays, a little bigger transformer isn't the top concern.
BTW, relay contacts have been known to weld shut - especially when abused.
VITAL signal relay contacts do NOT weld shut. By definition.
When they fail, they fail open.
...the typical DPDT vital signal relay occupies the volume of about 25 ice cube relays...
It's more like 72 ice cubes.
Don, let's tell Jeff what he's won as runner up!
I said DPDT. Think K-2.
Wuz thinking B2 or PN150
I never understood why CBTC is a supplier's dream. I can see why it might be the carrier's dream -- but suppliers seem to be doing themselves out of lucrative fixed-plant contracts.
CBTC is an all or nothing proposition.
Consider a highly interconnected system - such as NYC and suppose CBTC will actually produce some performance gains in capacity and/or speed. Not all routes need benefit immediately from such increased service.
Consider the Lex Ave express. More service is required between 125th St and Bowling Green. One method for getting the greatest return on investment would be to implement this section first and operate short runs between 125th and Bowling Green (149th and South Ferry). Suppose that CBTC provided 40 tph operation - then implementing CBTC on only a small portion would provide the benefit where it was needed without the necessity of implementing it from Woodlawn, E241st, Dyre to New Lots and Flatbush.
CBTC does not allow this. Maximum up front cost to the supplier is required to gain any benefit.
Suppose that CBTC provided 40 tph operation - then implementing CBTC on only a small portion would provide the benefit where it was needed without the necessity of implementing it from Woodlawn, E241st, Dyre to New Lots and Flatbush.
Not true. CBTC relies on train-bourne equipment. Systems can be designed such that trains are "passed" securely from a non-CBTC system to a CBTC system. For example, on the last block before CBTC territory, the CBTC equipment must establish communication before the train exits the block, or the train will be halted as soon as it exits the block by a trip-arm or other types of operator-vigilence device. Exiting CBTC has exactly the same procedure, train will not be allowed to proceed (signals will not clear) until the track circuit on the last block acknowledges to the CBTC system that it knows a train is there. Even better, use axle counters to ascertain that you have the whole train and not just part of it.
Although it would require the whole fleet be installed with CBTC for the incremental benefit, in fact the cost of the train-bourne equipment is somewhat less than the radio beacons. All you need is a $1,000 ish box on each train, tied into the existing ATO/ATC equipment. With mass production, the cost could be even less.
Same principles is applied where CTC railroads crosses train-order railroads. Each train going from DTC to CTC must be "entered" into the computer via a track circuit interlock.
AEM7
Although it would require the whole fleet be installed with CBTC for the incremental benefit, in fact the cost of the train-bourne equipment is somewhat less than the radio beacons. All you need is a $1,000 ish box on each train, tied into the existing ATO/ATC equipment. With mass production, the cost could be even less.
With possible service disruptions and diversions, every IRT car can find its way onto the the Lex express tracks except for the 400 odd cars attached to the Flushing line. So almost the entire Div A fleet would need to be outfitted before 12 miles of track could be get any benefit.
Railroad applications are not mass production for electronics - they are boutique. The railroad industry compounds this by insisting on so-called super reliability which requires their own equipment and communications protocols. CBTC is an example of this mindset. They have rejected using commodity radio links such as 802.11b in favor of their own equipment.
With possible service disruptions and diversions, every IRT car can find its way onto the the Lex express tracks except for the 400 odd cars attached to the Flushing line. So almost the entire Div A fleet would need to be outfitted before 12 miles of track could be get any benefit.
In those cases, it's time to have dedicated fleet. I do understand the kind of operational disruptions you can cause with dedicated fleets, but freight railroads do the dedicated fleet thing a lot. For instance, Conrail has a bunch of SD-70M's that are basically confined to the Albany Division. Those have cab signals. Those cab signal devices are also incompatible with cab signal devices on other parts of Conrail. With CBTC, the vehicles would be subject to the same embargo. Any vehicle that tries to enter CBTC territory without the transponder would be stopped by the interlocking mechanism.
Amtrak run the Lake Shore with cab-signal equipped P42's which are confined to the Chicago-Boston service. If those P42's are stolen for other purposes in Chicago, look forward to a big fleet mess-up and LSL running even later than it usually runs due to the "no cab signal" speed restriction that would be applied if one of the "normal" P42's were used.
For NYCTA, if they intend to take CBTC seriously at all and realize the maximum economy and benefit from it, they would need to have this kind of a special pool of cars. Eventually, when the rest of the lines are fitted out with CBTC, they would also fit the other cars.
Never be afraid to re-think your operating plan.
AEM7
So a rational approach would be to install CBTC on the 7, L, and Shuttle trains (Grand Central-Times Square and Franklin Avenue), work out the bugs, then proceed one line family at a time (eg the Lexington Ave lines).
In those cases, it's time to have dedicated fleet. I do understand the kind of operational disruptions you can cause with dedicated fleets, but freight railroads do the dedicated fleet thing a lot. For instance, Conrail has a bunch of SD-70M's that are basically confined to the Albany Division.
There are different economic implications based on frequency and distance. For example, the number of trains between NYC and Albany in a day does not surpass the number of trains on the Lex in 30 minutes. Similarly, the distance between NYC and Albany is 142 miles, whereas the distance between South Ferry and 149th St is about 12 miles. So a solution such as CBTC that is povides economic benifits for a system based on a few trains over a long distance will not provide the same economic advantages for a system that has many trains and short distances.
Any CBTC implementation must include the transition to full system implentation because it is scheduled to be implemented over a 20 year period. (Of course this means that the managers who proclaim system-wide implementation benefits will be enjoying their retirements by the time it will be possible to evaluate their claims and will not be able to be held accountable.)
The idea of not permitting non-CBTC trains onto a CBTC section of a trunk is not a viable option. This is not an amtrak like railroad where there are no real alternative destinations or routes. The name of the game is to get people from outside the CBD into the CBD. It is best, if it is at the advertised station at the advertised time. However, a reasonable alternative would be to get somebody to Grand Central instead of Times Sq with a 5 minute delay, if there is a problem on Lenox Ave. The operation is more like airlines in this respect. If Boston's airport were fogged in then planes might divert to Providence, they would not turn back and return back to California or stop in mid air and discharge their passengers. It means that all planes (with certain weight restrictions) must be able to land and take off from every airport. The same principle holds for operation in NYC's highly interconnected system.
Never be afraid to re-think your operating plan.
Do you ever take your own advice? :-)
There are different economic implications based on frequency and distance.
That I believe, but I also think that CBTC infrastructure (i.e. radio beacons) is far more significant part of the cost than the vehicle-bourne equipment. Thus, on a long distance line with few trains, CBTC is far less likely to be cost-effective than on a short-distance line with many trains. Of course, Jeff H. suggested that I was wrong about the cost of the CBTC equipment. He thought that a box aboard each vehicle might cost as much as $100,000. Since I'm not in the equipment manufacturing business, I really don't know, but I think I'm right. What we need is some real cost figures to settle this one.
Do you have any cost figures of infrastructure v.s. vehicle-bourne equipment?
My experience had been working with AWS on British Rail, which has exactly the problem I describe: the AWS box in each cab (not each vehicle) only costs about $7,500 per box, whereas the AWS magnets that need to be present at each signal can easily cost $100,000 per signal to install. The result is that the fleet is basically AWS-enabled but the infrastructure only has AWS where the likelyhood of crashes/signal overruns are high.
For example, the number of trains between NYC and Albany in a day does not surpass the number of trains on the Lex in 30 minutes.
I don't know about NYC to Albany, but the section with cab signals is Boston to Albany, and that section sees about 25 trains per day, which is more than Lex in 30 mins I suspect.
The idea of not permitting non-CBTC trains onto a CBTC section of a trunk is not a viable option.
I never said that should be done. I simply said that the fleet of vehicles that run on the CBTC trunk must be CBTC equipped, but surely there are vehicles that don't run on the CBTC trunk? Yes, you will lose some flexibility -- like you can no longer divert a local to run express, etc., or you can't steal a trainset stencilled 'Lex' to run on some other line, etc. This might turn out to be a dumb decision but I suspect with training, the operations dispatchers can handle such additional restrictions. It will make the installation of CBTC more cost-effective if we can do it one step at a time.
The operation is more like airlines in this respect. If Boston's airport were fogged in then planes might divert to Providence, they would not turn back and return back to California or stop in mid air and discharge their passengers. It means that all planes (with certain weight restrictions) must be able to land and take off from every airport. The same principle holds for operation in NYC's highly interconnected system.
I think that you have not studied Amtrak or airline operations in detail, in the same way that I have not studied the New York City Subway system in detail. However, I am merely pointing out that operational flexibility (like you describe) costs money. Contrary to what you think, there are a whole hoard of operational restrictions for aircraft landings. For instance, certain aircrafts not instrumented to land at Seattle cannot land in bad weather, while others can. Not all wide-body aircrafts can land at all airports and on all runways. Terminal control and terminal operations planning is a very complex discipline in airline management. You might think Amtrak has no diversionary routes -- in fact it probably has more than the New York City Subway, the problem is that none of them are very desirable and it's often faster (even in the case of a delay) to wait for the originally intended route to clear up. In terms of applying this dedicated fleet philosophy to NYCTA, it can be done. It may or may not save money, it may or may not mess up the operations, but you cannot claim that it can't be done due to the operational flexibility required. If it is cheaper to sacrifice the operational flexibility, then it should be sacrificed.
AEM7
Although it would require the whole fleet be installed with CBTC for the incremental benefit, in fact the
cost of the train-bourne equipment is somewhat less than the radio beacons. All you need is a $1,000 ish
box on each train, tied into the existing ATO/ATC equipment
I have no idea what you're talking about here. First off, there
is no existing ATO/ATC equipment on any of the cars in the NYCT
fleet including the 142/142A. The only car-borne box that costs
the TA $1,000 or less is that silly spring-loaded cover over the
emergency cord on some A division cars. It's more like $100,000
per car for "mature" ATC equipment such as the cab signal boxes on
the LIRR/MNRR fleet. The car-borne CBTC stuff is going to be much,
much more for a long time to come.
So that means zero-human trains? Wouldn't the FRA and unions have kitttens?
That's one of the reasons why I'm wondering if Microsoft is involved in this. Recent "updates" of theirs have seriously screwed things up in a lot of software by changing the basic states of registers in the CPU's instead of fixing their actual core problems. Code that once worked fine no longer does and a binary "true/false" is no longer guaranteed. I'm QUITE curious as to what OS this stuff's running on as I seriously expect it will be Microsoft and if so, then I know WHY the failures have occurred.
Recent "updates" of theirs have seriously screwed things up in a lot of software by changing the basic states of registers in the CPU's instead of fixing their actual core problems
What do you mean? If there is a bug and the outcome isn't correct, instead of revising the code that produces that otucome we just add a patch that detects the error condition, catch it, and then sbustitute the correct outcome? That's sounds very much like spaghetti progamming to me (sorry, to borrow an old-school term)
AEM7
Old-school x86 Assembler Programmer
"AEM7
Old-school x86 Assembler Programmer"
A devotee of the Marquis De Sade no doubt. My most successful experience with assembler was BAL (Basic Assembly Language, IBM System 370/3033). My attempts at using Assembly language on an Atari 800 resulted in a lot of frustration. You're a better man than I, I guess. (If you promise not to barf, I'll admit to programming in COBOL and JCL professionally and liking it).
But my wife can beat you there. She did Assembly language programming on the 8080 processor for secure real-time applications - on the F-14 Tomcat's AUG-9 processor.
That's exactly what THEY'VE done ... and there, the results can be unpredictable. Google the term "ERROR_SUCCESS" (type it into google in caps) and see how flaky it can get. You can't "==" (equals) for it, you have to "!=" (NOT EQUAL) to properly evaluate the result. There's far more as well in terms of examples of how Microsoft's defined responses to API calls (that used to result in boolean true or boolean false) now result in DWORD zeros which are different from LONG zeros and are different from UINT or INT zeros and the new "INT64" zero. They won't evaluate the same mathematically without "casting" the results EVER so carefully.
In other words, where once upon a time, a line of code could be:
if (outcome == TRUE)
{
switch=diverging;
}else{
switch=normal;
}
This now becomes:
#define TRUE = (DWORD)0;
if ((UINT)outcome !=(DWORD)TRUE)
{
(DWORD)switch=(INT64)normal;
}else{
(DWORD)switch=(INT64)diverging;
}
or equally stranger things. Just to ensure that you're adding apples and oranges to arrive at moving the banana. More complex moves get even worse.
now result in DWORD zeros which are different from LONG zeros and are different from UINT or INT zeros and the new "INT64" zero. They won't evaluate the same mathematically without "casting" the results EVER so carefully
These are basic things. One of the first thing they teach you in old fashioned coding classes is the importance of typing your variables appropriately. (But then, I am used to Pascal where there is no implicit type-casting at all).
Maybe those nu-age IT people don't get taught types and structures properly. Many of them probably learned to programme by using a "Hello World program wizard" to start with to generate the source code, and then added to it.
I'd have thought MS would have held all the variables at 32-bit until they are ready to move to 64-bit. Shouldn't there be hardware protection for this kind of thing? Since we're moving from 32-bit processors to 64-bit, shouldn't there be some kind of a flag that you can set that cause the hardware to operate in backwards-compatible 32-bit mode?
I don't recall hearing any problems of this kind when we went from the 286 to the 386, or the MC68000 to the MC68020.
AEM7
BINGO! Here's the deal. 32 bit processors and 32 bit data. HOWEVER, Microsoft believes heavily in cobbery on the high seas. With hard drives going over 4 gigabytes (raise your hands, how many people here have a hard drive that's LARGER than 4 gigs? [answer, many]) ... 32 bits of address range runs out at 4.2 gigs. Anything larger requires 64 bit addressing. So Microsoft have cobbed up a 64 bit double-word consisting of two consecutive 32 bit pucks that are "ANDED" to result in a high-word, low-word concoction in order to get to those numbers. That's just one example. However, the BOOLEAN "TRUE or FALSE" was once crisply defined. Not anymore.
Add to this casts that were not legal and are unique to windows where the underlying include definitions have changed, and suddenly you have software that once worked that is now made unreliable by the OS itself. Not a good thing. I don't want to take this any more esoteric than we've gone, but suffice it to say it's done royal screwage to those Delphi pascal coders. I write my stuff in ANSI C (not C++ unless I have no choice) primarily because it allows me to do things independent of the API's ... I can go straight to the registers myself. Most people who are under the age of 30 though don't know how to do this any longer and depend on whatever the sausage press turns out with zero warnings, zero errors. I won't even go INTO how completely screwed up the latest Visual Studio 7 and XP compiler is. Yipe. I still use Borland. :)
Most people who are under the age of 30 though don't know how to do this any longer...
heh. I'm 22. Do I really sound *that* old-school?
But yeah, I share your concern. I've met many IT types here who don't really understand structural programming.
MOV AX, MOO
INT 21
AEM7
I wish I understood object-oriented programming as well as I had masyered structured programming...
Microsoft has imposed an "inheritance tax" ... don't go there. :)
Is this something about how you can't upgrade software unless you pay a subscription?
I think this is a good move. It's about time they accelerated their demise to Linux. Linux is not stable, but if enough MBA-types make the jump, they will pour money into Linux and MS would be on its own.
AEM7
Actually that's something else entirely and is only going to throw this further afield which I don't want to do. It was a bad joke actually, since objects "inherit" from classes in OOP. However, many of Microsoft's objects have now been relegated to black boxes (the basis behind "ActiveX" or as we call it here, "ActiveHex, Blair Witch style") where you may have inherited an object but when you go to use it, your code is NO LONGER "friend" to the class and thus when you invoke the VTABLE object, you get a Bronx Handshake instead, resulting in "illegal operation error" ...
But back to the point, Windows is rapidly turning into one HUGE Bronx handshake and this brings me back to my original point - *IF* Windows is the basis for PTC and train control, we're ALL in a major world of hurt soon. I'd feel safer with *ME* behind the wheel of a rubber-tired vehicle.
I talked to a few people about it. I gave up on it after a while.
They tried to explain it to me: everything is an object, whether you are able to "see" it or not. Objects can have childs and the childs inherit the properties of the "mother" object. Objects have "constructors" and "destructors" that are like old-age "init()" and "cleanup()" routines.
Actually, the funny thing is, when I wrote a menu-based windowing system under Turbo Pascal (that was my final large-scale programming project before I threw in the towel), I actually wound up using OOP concepts in a structured discipline. I would have a "handler" procedure for each menu or each icon or whatever, and these handlers defined how the icons or menus would behave. These "handlers" also parsed linked lists to determine say menu items. All this shit sounded really like the OOP stuff I had been hearing from the Java camp.
I think the fundamental issue here is that to use objects effectively, you have to understand how it's done structurally, then you can use objects to save time but you mustn't violate the old-school structural principles. If you do, you arse up the code.
Now my little rant: under Java, there is this "garbage collector" that goes around cleaning up all the memory you no longer have pointers to and deallocates it. Now, HOW does that "feature" promote good programming practice? Suddenly, all programmers think that they can just leave an object on the screen and not "destructor" it once they are done with it and no longer have a "handler" for it. Voila, redraw bugs.
AEM7
You're right.
I do like the discipline that Java imposes (single parent inheritance, no explicit pointing); but the garbage collection is imperfect - in fact, some compilers do allow "memory leak."
Omn the other hand, if you're willing to take care of details yourself, C++ is very powerful...
Actually, that's VERY old school. Congratulations, you ARE among a small number these days. Sure hope you defined a SEG or you just wiped the master boot record, now defined as "OOM" ... heh.
.486p
.model flat,STDCALL
%nolist
include win32.inc
%list
mov dword ptr [wc.clsLpszClassName],offset class
push 0
push offset class
call FindWindow
or eax,eax
jz regclass
push MB_ABORTRETRYIGNORE
All the above just to crash the box. I like your method better. One of these days, we'll have to collaborate on a virus that will delete windows and install Linux. :)
Several years ago I wrote a bunch of functions in C that looked basically like that with some extra code to move some variables in and out of the registers, and used INT 33 to do rodent support in DOS. I remember Gloucsters and PCCs and trolley buses. So, not only am I old school, I'm also a railgeezer!
I've been meeting a bunch of younger people who have done those 10 month IT training programs and what I've discovered is that a lot of them have done no programming - they only get taught how to set up computers, networks, tons of internet stuff, and screw around with Windows to make it work, at least as best as possible, when it goes awry. And many companies consider this and some experience sufficient for their IT staff.
-Robert King
An Ariane 5 rocket once had to be destroyed because a 64 bit processor passed data to a 16 bit processor without a proper error-handling routine being present. The rocket interpreted the overflow as a directional command...the range safety officer blew it up.
Hmm, I wonder what relation Arainespace has to Airbus and Bombardier? Do they roll their own (Boosters that is!)? I suppose 11 n' 1 ain't bad (Shuttle's 107 and 1), but it's kinda funny they spent 8 billion bucks on a spacecraft only to need to blow it and it's payload up, because they used the software system from an Ariane 4, makes NASA's little metric to standard screw up on Mars Polar look a little bit less pathetic.
Still, Give me a Titan IVB Centaur anyday, oh yeah, no more Titans, no more Redbirds. Hello Atlas V, hello R142A!
Kevin,
Considerably off-topic, but your code example will not compile.
switch is a reserved word.
Heh. Wasn't trying to make a compilable example there. But DO feel free to drop off the "s" for "savings" ... :)
You will need to add a few #include files tho'.
What are you complaining about? You could have a one's complement machine with two values of 0. :-)
Heh. Well ... we do now ... in a roundabout way. Too bad the OS can't count its balls and come up with the same number twice, then we'd be on to something. :)
Kirk's mind raced as he quickly assessed his situation: the shields were down, the warp drive and impulse engines were dead, life support was failing fast, and the Enterprise was plummeting out of control toward the surface of Epsilon VI and, as Scotty and Spock searched frantically through the manuals trying to find a way to save them all, Kirk vowed, as he stared at the solid blue image filling the main view screen, that never again would he allow a Microsoft operating system to control his ship.
from the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest
Fortunately, you can install Linux from inside Windows. 'Kirk says, "Queen to Queen's level 3. Mr. Gates? Queen to Queen's level 3."
Maybe its time to "just add a relay".
Are you assuming that this was an example of equipment failure? If so, then why are they examining the code? If it was a design failure - which a line by line examination of the code would indicate, then how would the addition of one or more relays have prevented a design failure?
It was a joke. I fell for it too. Check the previous posts.
DAMMIT Bombardier! Can you not botch anything????
There's dozens and dozens of their planes flying in and out of the local airport here every day. Still no stains on the lawn here. STCUM and TTC run their choochoos every day too and they make it back to the yards on their own power (and still coupled) when the day's complete. Maybe it's a Canadien plot over the soft wood thing. :)
Soft wood???
Yeah, one of many "trade issues" handled poorly by our Shrub. There's an embargo on the importation of "soft wood" from Canada and a number of other trade barriers we've imposed on our neighbors to the north for the benefit of certain outfits here who weren't making enough money. As a result of this silliness, most of the paper industry (for which soft wood was imported) has now gone out of business (particularly in New York State since we used to sell the output back to Canada and now we don't) ...
To put it kindly, we're not making friends in Canada lately so I could see some employees not feeling terribly motivated to do their very best if it's being shipped off to "America" ... but I suspect the REAL cause of all the problems is that the cars are assembled by yahoos in Plattsburgh instead of being properly handcrafted in Thunder Bay by people who KNOW how to build trainsets.
I think that part of thhe problem is from the canadian factory ( see the R62A's were screwed up at time of delivery) and this was only compounded by plattsburg ( see everything that comes out of there is screwed up).
They DO seem to make decent Lear Jets and commuter planes. Queens would be littered with scrap metal if the NYC and Amtrak experience was typical of Bombardier. And their trains in OTHER places seem to hold up VERY well. Therefore, it would seem that there's something else at play here and I'd suspect it's unrealistic specifications. But I s'pose that's just a guess. Still ...
--play here and I'd suspect it's unrealistic specifications--
The R62A's?
Wasn't around for that debacle ...
But for what it's worth, the R160 contract went to Alstom. Guess who THEY are? Whoops. :)
They build the planes not far from here and none have made it off the runway and fallen into the Wilson subway yard or get airborne only to fall out of the sky above the Yorkdale parking lot on test flights so...
-Robert King
Must be the soft wood thing then. :)
This type of software is particularly disturbing; it's not a mere Guru Meditation where you just hit the left mouse button, wait for the system to come back up and continue working.
I've mentioned this before: Bombardier picked up ICTS (Intermediate Capacity Transit System) from the late UTDC. UTDC, and now I suppose Bombardier, built the cars and you guys have got the better looking, larger, faster Mark II version. When ICTS was developed back in the late 70s and early 80s, Standard Elektrik Lorenz supplied the all the cab signalling and ATO systems and software, known as the SELtrack (sp?) system, which run the trains and the line they operate on. I don't know if SEL or the Seltrack system has since been bought by Bombardier or anybody else so I don't know who currently owns it.
The SELtrack system has been used sucessfully on the Scarborough RT (original ICTS line), the Vancouver Skytrain and the DLR in London. I think it's reasonable to say that the software worked at one time, when these earlier systems were constructed and it appears to be doing fine on the Mark II cars now running in Vancouver - I haven't heard any news of bugs of this nature with those cars.
I can think of a number of ways a serious bug like this could be introduced:
They could have ported the software to another platform. At nearly 20 years of age, I can see this being done to keep the hardware/software current but it could have introduced bugs especially if the new platform is something like Windows CE or Windows for embedded systems (does this still exist/make it past development?) where you also have to cater to Microsoft, account for bugs in their software and how they will affect yours.
They could have tried making big updates to the software. Again, at nearly 20 years of age, I can see it becoming desirible to make large updates to the software to keep it current with contemporary requirements.
The existing software (or for that matter, revised versions or completely new versions) could have been erroneously and incompetently set up and configured. Things like the line's speed profiles, station stops, rules governing single and bidirectional operation on the same track etc. may not have been set up properly, leading to this accident. If this is true, they won't find it as a bug in the software itself but they'll have to hunt it all down in the configuration files.
It's possible, but I don't think it is too likely, that new software has been written from the ground up for use on the Airtrain. If it turns out that this is the case, obviously debugging a totally new set of programs comes into play.
I strongly suspect, again bearing in mind that the original systems are about 20 years old, that there is new hardware being used. I suppose it's possible that there could be a hardware bug in there that eventually is what may be causing this.
Lastly, it could be that they're having a far worse problems than we did back in the early 80s concerning the communications between the trains and the signalling computers producing these results.
A thorough check of the software is in order, but I wouldn't be too too surprised if it comes up empty handed or if they expand the scope of their work to include the hardware an any other software on the trains. I hope it doesn't come down to what we went through here back around 1984 with the Scarborough RT where, fortunately for us, proper cabs and full time drivers were provided (keep the union happy, token safety arguments) on the ICTS cars and the drivers had to run the trains fully manually without cab signalling in Emergency Mode while the Seltrack systems were fully debugged and tested the first time (to be fair, there was a lot of pressure to get the line open anyways because it was already a year late and $100 million over budget by then).
I know this was a long read but I hope it was informitive.
-Robert King
I just saw an ad in the subway today that trumpeted that MGH was going to get turned into some glass-covered Norman Foster shite. Better get out and fotograph that historic building before they tear it up. Work will start next year.
AEM7
This was in the plans since 1997 or so; the money's finally been allocated. The station is being made ADA compliant, which makes sense considering it is within walking distance of Massachusetts General Hospital. Interesting place (yours truly did an informatics fellowship there).
Bite your tongue. The Charles/MGH station in its present form is a decrepit heap, with virtually no historical value compared to other buildings in Boston. Whatever Norman Foster designs, even on his worst day, would be a vast improvement. Hell, anything I'd design would be a vast improvement.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Anything Art Vandelay designs would be a vast improvement.
Hmmm...A latex train station by Vandelay Industries! :O)
hello, my message for nycsubway.org is that I want to talk about subject that has been conerning Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. We in the community, want the MTA to put M Train service on the R Train route in Brooklyn. The reason that I have recently read, was that the R trains are always slow and unreliable. We decided we need the M Train to come to Bay Ridge, all times. But, the MTA has no response to that opposing question. I personally, would love for the M train run the route, all times between Metropolitan Avenue and 95 Street. Because we could have faster service to Bay Ridge. rather than the slow and unrelieable Broadway Local- R Train. Every time, I see a M Train passing through 36 Street with its big clucking nosie, I see no one taking the train, because everyone on the West End Line take the W Train and Only the W train. Why not, bring it to Bay Ridge, where the trains will be filled up to its capacity. So please respond to my plan of the future. Thank you for reading!
First of all, one of your local elected officals, namely Peter Abbate, has been after the TA for years to increase service, so your request is nothing new. The TA has responded with the increasing of service, as ridership warrants. These figures are available from the TA, and several individuals from this board may post these figures upon request, at that person's discretion. The community board doesn't have any authority to 'decide' to add train services.
Second, your line doesn't warrant two train services. The "M" is a part-time service, which is used in addition to the "W" for West End service because the ridership justifies it. It does NOT on the Bay Ridge portion of the line, which has not only subway service, but express bus service, something the communities of the West End, for the most part, do not.
Express bus service should not count because people have to pay an extra 1.50.
I've been on the Bay Ridge portion of the 4 Av Line a few times during rush hours and I agree that it does not need two subway routes (though I admit that the R is probably the most unreliable train out there). Its also true that very few people ride the M on the West End because it's a 4th Ave local. To make the M useful again, return it to the Brighton Line when the Manhattan Bridge repairs are done. Before it was switched to the West End, the M actually had good ridership during rush hours on the Brighton. I'd have the B and W run on the West End and have the M run with the D and Q on the Brighton during rush hours. I believe that the Brighton line has enough riders during rush hours to justify running three routes on it.
Yes, it does need 2 routes. Until 1987, it always had 2 routes.
You're right, Bay Ridge had a yellow R and a brown R. But, I've rode that line several times during rush hours, not too long ago. While I admit the R does have decent ridership around Bay Ridge during rush hours, I'm not sure it's enough today to warrant two services.
R service alone during the day is fine. But the service is insufficient for rush hour loads. Remember, many Staten Island riders x-fer to the R from busses at 86th St.
I don't know; from what I've seen on the R, people tend to crowd cars near their exit at a given stations, including 86th. Even at that, those cars were not that crowded (or have I missed something).
I don't know; from what I've seen on the R, people tend to crowd cars near their exit at a given stations, including 86th. Even at that, those cars were not that crowded (or have I missed something?).
You've missed something. R trains are packed coming into 59th St every morning. They usually empty here because an N is almost always scheduled to be waiting for it. The train refills before arriving at 36th St before emptying again as people scurry for any express that'll deliver them from the local from hell.
Hey Chris, I like that term "the local from hell." From the time I can first remember riding the subway as a kid I had this visceral hatred for the 4th Avenue Local. One stop outdoors, stopping at every station, always keeping the riders waiting while other trains pulled out, etc ,etc, etc,. Boy was it good to get to Times Square where we could transfer to a real train----the Brighton, the West End, and my Sea Beach.
I don't like locals, either. It's just the idea of stopping at every single station that bugs me. I won't take one unless I have to.
The ride on a Manhattan bound R along 4th Ave can be infuriating, with all the timers, switches and the inevitable holding at 59th, 36th and Pacific.
Yep, "The local from hell" pretty much sums up the R. It takes a while to show up and moves about as fast as a turtle on cannibus. I'm not a big fan of locals either (as you can probably tell by my code-name), but there are some decent locals out there. The F in Manhattan is a pretty reliable and quick local and the 6 (when it's on schedule) is very quick for a local in Manhattan. On a good day, it can get you from Canal St to 51 Street in about 12 minutes. There are some decent locals out there. The R just isn't one of them.
Yeah... but it sure is better than the N Broadway line. Thank GOD for the W!
N Broadway Line
If I ever ride the R on the Bay Ridge branch, it's during the evening rush. From what you've said the morning rush is a different breed. In your opinion though, do you think the M would be more useful on the Brighton line or the Bay Ridge line during the rush?
I find the M to be more useful on the Brighton line. The Bay Ridge run is ok enough with N, R, and ugh, W trains. Maybe M trains should replace < Q > trains. (Q) should run express on Brighton, then local on nights and weekends just like the ol' school (D) train. (M) can run local to Coney Island until the terminal closes down for demolition then shift back to Brighton Beach weekdays and rush hours. Dubya can run West End service by itself.
"I find the M to be more useful on the Brighton line. The Bay Ridge run is ok enough with N, R, and ugh, W trains. Maybe M trains should replace < Q > trains. (Q) should run express on Brighton, then local on nights and weekends just like the ol' school (D) train. (M) can run local to Coney Island until the terminal closes down for demolition then shift back to Brighton Beach weekdays and rush hours. Dubya can run West End service by itself."
You will make a lot of enemies at the local stations if you make the "M" a brighton local... Besides, no one seems to be complaining about the current service, except a few people riding the "R" line.
N Broadway
You will make a lot of enemies at the local stations if you make the "M" a brighton local...
It would be even more amusing to have a (D) or (Q) Brighton Local via Bridge and an (M) Brighton Express!
Les, putting all three, D, M, and Q on the Brighton would certainly have its advantages. On the other hand, this would require more switching and in particular more merging southbound (with more potential for delays) than just having the D and Q. D and Q having 12 tph each would offer nice service for the Brighton and they'd have their one exclusive track (track 4 northbound, track 3 southbound) at Dekalb with only one merge in each direction (at Prospect Park northbound, at Dekalb southbound). Downtown riders would have a simple cross-platform transfer to the West End M and 4th Av. R (with 6 tph and 10 tph respectively) that would also have their own track at Dekalb, and the B and N would share the bypass track (8 tph each).
In case anybody has forgotten, throughout the 70's there were 3 sevices on the Brighton Line during rush hours. The "D" was the express, and the "QJ" (replaced by the "M") and the "QB" were the locals. The "D" was the 6th Avenue express, the "QJ" or "M" went up Nassau Street, and the "QB" was a Broadway Express.I don't recall many more delays than usual, maybe somebody else may have statistics.
Ahh the good old days.
yeah, i feel you,dude.
Yes, I remeber this service pattern, though I was a kid. I remember a lot of those trains on the D, M, QB breaking down. I also recall a lot of delays on the Brighton and VERY crowded trains, because too many trains would go out of service. Though don't get me wrong, I would like to see the M return to Brighton at least during the rush hours. The M would be more useful on it. I'm only acknowledging that there could be more delays on the Brighton if the M returned due to the switching and merging of three different lines.
Not neccesarily. With good train dispatching skills and scheduling, delays can be avoided. At least for the time being, M and Q service to run on the Brighton line right now would be justifiable. When/if the D returns to Brighton service, Q trains can reroute to West End or 95 St. M train's rightful home is the Brighton Line with its home terminal, THE BIG CONEY!!
The Q also belongs on the Brighton, just like the M. With the Q running as the express to Brighton Beach and the D and M both running local on the Brighton to CI (M rush hours only), I think service would be improved somewhat on the Brighton. As for the West End, I was thinking of having the W run along with the B during rush hours.
And by that token the Sea Beach stays in the tunnel. No thanks. Later for your idea.
I think you probably forgot about my old hypothetical routing plan, when the Manhattan Bridge reopens:
http://talk.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=324079
I've always felt that the Sea Beach train (N) should run express in both Brooklyn and Manhattan when the MB reopens.
Harry,
You're right in saying that it'll be more switching and more potential for delays if you have three services on the Brighton. Northbound, I was thinking about giving the Brighton M priority over the other Montague trains. Southbound, I would give the M priority over the other Brighton Local but not the Brighton Express. If the MTA could set up a set of signals that could hold up southbound M trains without interfering with the other 4th Ave or Brighton lines, then it may work. However, I could live with having two lines on the Brighton. It WOULD mean less delays.
And if the three of them go over the bridge my Sea Beach will never see the light of day over the Manny B. Forget it. Two for the Brighton is enough unless one or two of them are in the Montague.
Fred, wouldn't D go north, Q go south, and M go Montague because it would go to ENY? So, there would still be room on the south for the N. Problem solved.
Fred, back in the 70's, here's what ran in the rush hours:
Brighton Line:
D Brighton Express/6th Ave Express via Bridge.
QB Brighton Local/Broadway Express via Bridge.
M Brighton Local/Nassau Street via Tunnel
4th Avenue Line:
N Sea Beach/4th Ave Express/Broadway Express via Bridge (Skip DeKalb)
B West End/4th Ave Express/6th Ave Local or Express via Bridge (skip De Kalb)
RR 4th Ave Local/Broadway Local via Tunnel
RR 4th Ave Local/"Chambers Street Special" via Tunnel
Of course, all this was possible with both sides of the bridge open.
OK Marty, it is possible but if you have heard me on one of my rants in person you know that I don't trust the TA to do the right thing and put my Sea Beach on the bridge where it belongs when all the work is finished. Come on now, it used to be an express and now it is a local. It used to go over the Manny B but now is stuck in the Montague rat hole. It used to go to Coney Island but stops at 86th Street while my buddy Jeff's West End goes there. Don't I have a little right to feel gun shy and skeptical of what transpires over at the TA.
PS---I had a blast last weekend. I hope you and Anon did, too. No New York but still one hell of a time.
Hey Fred, if it'll make you feel any better, neither of Bob's trains will be running to Coney Island, either.
Do you mean that misery loves company? BTW, I will be staying at the Pennsylvania on 7th and 33rd Street from October 11-15.
That means you'll be right across the street from Penn Station. We can meet there on Monday the 14th by the LIRR waiting area. That's where I normally rendezvous with Wayne and Subway-buff. I'll be wearing my A shirt and Mets jacket if it's not too cold. We'll finalize details later. Do you have a ride to Branford on Sunday the 13th?
P. S. What's Bob been up to?
Monday's on but no Branford. Bob can only railfan on Sunday so we have to do it that day. I'm hoping I can talk him into staying through Monday though.
What?!? You mean I'm going to miss the Bob and Fred Show? Aww, man!!!
Hmmmm... I think this would just about work (and please all da BMT fans!):
(N) Astoria - Broadway Exp - Sea Beach - CI
(Q) 57/7 - Broadway Exp - Brighton Lcl - CI
(R) Continental - Broadway Lcl - Bay Ridge
(T) 57/7 - Broadway Exp - West End - CI
(W) Astoria - Broadway Lcl - Whitehall
(B) abolished
(D) 205 - CPW Lcl - 6th Av Exp - Brighton Exp - Brighton Beach
(J/Z) Jamaica - Broadway Brooklyn - 6th Av Exp (switching at W4) - CPW Lcl - 168 (switch C to BPB)
(M) Metropolitan - (some start at Chambers) Nassau - various Brooklyn destinations (CI via Brighton, Bay Ridge, Bay Pkwy via West End)
This could work---but if it is all right with you I won't hold my breath until the TA ratifies this plan. OK???
Of course, Fred!
Having said that, I might try and save enough money to visit NYC once the N Train's back on da Bridge and going to CI - hope I can afford to!
Where does the V go? If you keep it in its current Houston-Second Ave. terminal, or even if you extend it to Church Ave., you will have the problem of three trains sharing the same track between West Fourth and B'way Lafayette, combined with a local/express switchover for the J right in that area. Major league traffic jam, there, especially if a D train on express track slows down the J's switchover, which then slows down the F behind it, which then slows down the V behind that, etc., etc.
The only way to solve that problem would be to swap out the V from Sixth Ave. to Eighth Ave. local south of West Fourth, so only two trains are on any track along Houston St. at the same time, kill off the C and run either the E or V in its place as Fulton local with the A train. Of course that leaves you with no rush hour Concourse local service and nothing but late night service for the upper level at Eighth Ave. and 50th St., but the rush hour bottlenecks would improve.
All in all merging the J or M with the C or V and running that across the Willie B would create the least amount of problems (though if you send the C across the bridge, the V would have to either switch over to Eighth Ave or switch at Jay St. to handle the Fulton local service with the A).
ONCE AGAIN, IF YOU MISSED IT THE FIRST TIME
I've always said the 6TH AVE/Broadway Brooklyn route should have should have become the full service route to and from Jamaica,insted of the long Coney Island line[QJ].Of course with the proper service ''tweaks''[such as express trains on the Bway EL =Marcy to ENY,J/Z skipstop middays]it could work.
I'll be the first to defend Bay Ridge riders by saying that current "R" rush hour service is HORRIBLY insufficent. Stand on a 4th Ave local station south of 36th St at 7:30 to see what I mean.
I've seen it, as a 95th St. user. They can increase service without the addition of an extra line.
Not with the Manhattan bridge out, forcing the R to maintain a 9TPH headway, which is inadequate. Put the N on the bridge, and you can increase it to 12 TPH.
"Put the N on the bridge". At least there are now more than just me and other N fans calling for that. I wonder if the TA is listening.
Write to them, and make sure they hear it from you.
The R sucks. I hate the R. One of the most boring time consuming trains. And the N has to to suffer with it on the Broadway local and sloooow Montague tunnel.
I think the N should go over the bridge full time (when both sides are open) and the R should be improved. I think some R's should be stored in City Hall (lower level)yard which has access to the local tracks, if Queens doesn't have the spce.
Of they could use City Hall as a terminal, with lower level for special Bay Ridge-City Hall runs. They should build a connection from City Hall to the Fulton.st complex (I hope this is in the downtown plan).
I think some R's should be stored in City Hall (lower level)yard which has access to the local tracks, if Queens doesn't have the spce.
I believe that Rs are stored on City Hall lower level as well as the leads to the platform.
correct. you can see them sometimes if u look down the stairs leading to the lower platform.
From what I've read about The Second ave subway project,the R is suppose to get a makover.It's suppose to be rerouted to the Broadway Exp,from 95st to 125TH st,and a new line called the ''T'',would replace it to Queens....
and where did you read this?
about two years ago in the QUEENS PUBLIC LIBRARY,doing research.[Reducing east west trafic loads into the CBD from Queens]You can also get it from the MTA site[www.mta info] by going to ''planning studies''
I've heard this before somewhere too. I wonder why they chiise the R for 2nd Av. It would then have noi yard likw when it went to Astoria. The n or Q would be a much better idea. Plus, this I'm sure is in conjunction with their plan to reconfigure the Canal St. area, so that the express leads to the tunnel (The R, coming from 2nd Av. via 63rd would feed directly into the express tracks). But then the N and Q on the bridge would become locals. I don't know why they want to spend all that extra money and disrupt the pattern. Whichever train comes from 2nd Av. could switch to the tunnel track at Canal peak direction. This was a plan they had a few years ago for the N when the bridge fully reopens. (it was the "cheap" plan that left out the W-Whitehall service. Astoria riders would still have their lower Mahnattan service while Brooklyn riders would get back the bridge).
So there is no reason why they couldn't do that to give the 2nd Av. riders access to lower Manhattan.
from what i understand,the T.A wants to give lower Manhattan TOP BILLING in any new subway comstruction and new routes.The Canal street ''flip'',the City Hall rebuild,all coincide with this new R service.Also at the time of this proposal,a new Sunnyside Yard complex was in planning stagges [for T.A use],for the Second ave/Queens Blvd trains.So I guess this is all in the works now with the new LIRR line bringing the 63rd st tunnel into the yards itself now[both levels].we have a oppertunity to revive the Queens superexpress line now also. One can only hope..... if you look to the MTA site,you will see this also. meyow....
The Canal Street "flip" (under which trains using the Manhattan bridge would run local while trains using the tunnel would run express and then go onto the Second Avenue Subway) is no longer on the table.
David
Hey - I-Ti-Guy
Where "is" you now - California, Florida or S.I.??
"WE" have a problem to solve ---and its off topic from and unrelated to this Sub/Talk Topic Thread.
YOU are a member of my Forum Board " NYC Transit Modelers Group" for a long time now but its internet ISP, Yahoo, has "suspended" YOUR membership from My and all other groups you belong to at Yahoo because---as their messages to webmasters state---
"YOUR EMAILS ARE BOUNCING and your EMAIL STORAGE IS OVER CAPACITY."
I have held off "removing you" from MY membership forum--for weeks now, and have been sending daily WEBMASTER "MEMBER REACTIVATION ACCOUNT" notices to the address your membership is listed under, and they are Hard Bouncing. Seems like you have a heck of a lot of bounced emails (I have the totals on my site) from your various Yahoo membership groups.
I Need you to contact me by email ASAP at:
nycmodeltransit@webtv.net (Joseph Frank)
----so we can straighten this matter up and I can find out from you what happened. DO NOT try to contact me via my Board Email (Forum Message board) as your account has been blocked by Yahoo till you clear all this up.
Thanks Much - I-Ti-Guy-SI !!
Waiting to hear from you --ps: coming here to Sub/Talk was the ONLY WAY I could contact you re: this problem ---and to save your memberhship account in my Group !!!
Best Regards ---
Joseph Frank
Webmaster
New York City Transit Modelers Group (Forum board)
Joseph:
Yahoo's groups have expanded, and I was automatically added to EVERY group, and the last group were sending Emails at the rate of over 300 per day, so I blocked all yahoo Email until I got a hold of yahoo.
I now blocked all unrequested groups, yours of course wasn't one of them. I'm sorry for the trouble, but I was gettting way too much email.
Al
Hey Al ---
Thanks for that INTERESTING information - its has been apparent to me that Yahoo also has its share of greedy BONEHEAD functionaries operating its huge international site with tenacles reaching to
everywhere and trying to reach into everyone's pockets too!!!.
I wasnt aware of that new situation, but WAS aware that all at ONCE -- I got 11 or 12 regular members - ok-guys like youself -- whose emails were bouncing
and some with BIG bounced-email volume numbers --- and I was lucky previously to get maybe one member under that Bounce page --say, every few months.
So, thanks for jumpin' back in with us, and much thanks for the "interesting" background Yahoo (boneheads!) info..I will keep on top of THAT !!
Regards - Joe
Jospeh Frank
webmaster - NYCTMG
Yahoo groups sucks.
If you log on using your Yahoo account, you can block invitations from groups and/or disable e-mails from any groups you want to be a part of.
I think he wants the M in lieu of the R, not in addition.
The curent route of the M train on the West End doesn't seem to serve anyone except passengers diguised as empty seats. It seems like more of conveience to the TA to send them there because ti's easy to turn them around with minimal disruption
If that's the case, why don't they just keep the train turning at 9th Ave, instead of Bay Parkway. Obviously there must be more of a reason for them to send them to Bay Parkway rush hours.
Perhaps to maintain the illusion that it is serving someone.
A week or two ago, I got off a SB afternoon rush hour J at Fulton and there were lots of people waiting there for an M.
heading toward Broad? then thats obvious since they all wanna go to Brooklyn via 4th Ave and West End.
But everyone else in this thread seems to think that nobody rides the M south of Broad.
I ride the M train all the time. The M train means riders at 9th Street get one train every five minutes, instead of one train every eight to ten minutes, at rush hour.
If people would rather ride fast than have a short wait, and if those on the lower 4th Avenue don't "deserve" all this service, then one way to make the M useful would be to run the R express to 36th Street via a battery run.
well they are obviously dead wrong thats 100% sure
"heading toward Broad? then thats obvious since they all wanna go to Brooklyn via 4th Ave and West End."
Note, the N/R also serves 4th Avenue and is only a couple of stations down the street.
N Broadway Line
If it was during rush hour, your point does seem to make sense.. And, since the M is really the only line that serves the southern division at the Fulton Street station, I can see why people were waiting for it.
By the way, the N line (I'm not sure about the R) does seem to fill up again once it leaves the Whitehall Street station for Brooklyn. This is after it losing a bulk of it's passengers around 14th and Canal Street. So it's obvious people are using both subway lines.
N Broadway Line
To me, the amusing part of all this is how truckloads of people still move to Bay Ridge, even though subway and bus service is so terrible. I pity the long time residents of Bay Ridge, who have watched service deteriorate over the years. But I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone who has moved there in recent years.
Oh, and by the way, I'm sure that even if M service was to go to 95th Street, folks would still complain about the fact that the trains are only 8 cars long. Didn't they do the same when the J went down there just after 9/11?
Actually when the J served Bay Ridge service was better.Even though it was with shorter trains they never had those delays that the R constantly suffers.M service may not be warranted but if it were to run there Ridership in Bay Ridge will increase.Most people in the Ridge Hate waiting for the R. I know because I was one of those people ,then after operating the R I knew why it was so slow.
The reason the R is so slow, is because it merges with a lot of other trains.. LIKE ThE V! train.. which should be an rush hour only service.
N Broadway
NO the v is nececary
thank you!at least someone likes to see the V around.
We moved to bay ridge last year because we had no choice - little else was available for reasonable prices.
We complained about the J because it was 8 cars, a reduction from the 10 that used to run. Now if we had the regular-length R's AND 8 car M's, that would be a whole different ballpark.
Maybe the "reasonable prices" was due to the poor transit situation ;). I don't know, I thought that real estate was kind of steep in Bay Ridge because of the fact it's considered one of the last "nice areas" of Brooklyn. I don't know about house prices, but everyone I speak with says that RENTS are much higher in Bay Ridge than most other places in Brooklyn. Of course, Brooklyn Heights and Park Slope don't count because those places are just extensions of Manhattan (e.g. D'agastino's and/or Gristede's in those places).
By the way, does anybody remember how many cars ran on the old RR (95th Street to Astoria) back in the 70's? If memory serves, I believe they ran only 8 cars, even during the rush hour. I know for a fact that during the rush hour, there were only 8 cars on the B West End back in the late 70's-early 80's. I believe it was the same for the RR.
All Southern Division BMT lines were 8-cars until around 1986, when the first GOH'ed R-40 appeared on the West End. Then, West End trains went to 10 cars, then the Sea Beach, and the 4th Avenue Local. The exceptions were, of course the IND Culver, and the "D" train that ran 10-cars since the days the "D" was the IND South Brooklyn service.
Note: All Southern Division BMT stations were expanded to 10-car holding ability in 1970-1972.
Absolutely not. The Brighton D went to 10 cars when Chrystie St. opened in 1967. When I was a conductor in 1979/80, the N line ran 600' full length trains of R46's for awhile. The West End line, even though they ran 8 cars for a long time afterwards, had 10 car stations in case of re-routed D or N trains.
The West End line did not have platform extensions just for the luxury of a reroute, it was for planned future expansion. The 600' "N" trains were not the norm, which was 480' car trains (8).
The "D" always ran full trains. Most IND services did, with the exception of the Crosstown and some local trains.
What's amazing is that in the past 15 years, i've been to park slope daily and the changes that have occurred are unbelievable. park slope used to be a terrible neighborhood in brooklyn, and now, as you have mentioned, it is an extension of manhattan. truly amazing the way things change over time, whether for the better, or for the worse.
Isn't Park Slope where all the mansion millionares in Brooklyn live?
no thats dyker heights.
Park Slope as well.
Park Slope doesn't have any mansions, it's a brownstone neighborhood.
Huge mansions are found in:
Bay Ridge
Dyker Heights
Ditmas Park/Prospect Park South
Manhattan Beach
Mill Basin
Thank you. I did have the impression, though, that Park Slope's residents are, as a whole, higher income.
Yes, that's what I thought as well.
go n train and ron, park slope is apartment buildings for mainly higher income single men and women who can't find an apartment in manhattan. it is not a neighborhood for mansions and rich folk. it's so popular among Manhattanites because of the lower rent.
the "rich" areas of brooklyn are exactly what American Pig said. Nothing more.
So Park Slope is for yuppies...
110%
well nothing you couldve done about,all the stations on the J line are 8 cars long so wether people liked it or not,that month they had to deal with it.
That was different. The plan is to augment the R with the M, not replace it.
I think the capacity is reason why Bay Ridge can't handle two trains together. If the capacity wasn't the problem, TA would done it long ago b4 ask them. Frankly I would like see M in Bay Ridge in 2004 so the W can remain on West End. Only god knows whether or not that will happen. So I just sit and wait to see what will happen in 2004.
"I think the capacity is reason why Bay Ridge can't handle two trains together. If the capacity wasn't the problem, TA would done it long ago b4 ask them. Frankly I would like see M in Bay Ridge in 2004 so the W can remain on West End. Only god knows whether or not that will happen. So I just sit and wait to see what will happen in 2004."
It wouldn't be fair to have all those services on fourth avenue (5)verses the brighton line (2)..
And, what about the "N" line becoming express via broadway and fourth Avenue?
N Bwy
What I'm suggesting about the service in south brooklyn is
Two Service "(B,W)" or "(B,M)" via West End Line.
Two Service "(N,M)" or "(N,W)" via Sea Beach Line .
Only One (R) or Two Service (R M)...if possible via Bay Ridge Line.
Brigthon Line still has "(D Q)" or We can send M back to Brooklyn like the old days.
>>We can send M back to "Brooklyn" like the old days<<.
I mean "Brighton Line"
B N express via 4th Ave.
M R W local via 4th Ave. W remain Express in Manhattan.
There's no need for more service via Sea Beach.
Arti
Yeah I agree, Bay Ridge needs more service than just that oh so pitiful R train
Once upon a time, I heart it proposed to run the (R) at saturation levels. Where this to be done, service would improve.
But the other end of the (R) is stuck on Queens Boulevard, and shares a service there with the (V). It probably cannot be increased because of that.
So then, why not extend the (M) to Bay Ridge at Day Times. Maybe it is only 8tph or whatever, but it surely could fill in the holes around the (R)arely train.
Elias
"But the other end of the (R) is stuck on Queens Boulevard, and shares a service there with the (V). It probably cannot be increased because of that."
The V and W can be cut back to a rush hour service..
"So then, why not extend the (M) to Bay Ridge at Day Times. Maybe it is only 8tph or whatever, but it surely could fill in the holes around the (R)arely train."
Maybe they can throw some M's towards the 95th Terminal to balance out service (Rush hours only). But I still think half of the M's should serve Bay Parkway.
N Bwy
The V and W can be cut back to a rush hour service..
I dont think that either the 9v0 or the (W) can be cut back to rush hour only, but even if they were THEY WOULD STILL BE IN THE WAY DURING RUSH HOURS!
Elias
The V cannot be cut back (except on your fantasy map, of course). In addition, the V is not preventing more service on the R. The R's frequency of service can probably be increased slightly (but enough to help).
Both R & V trains run at 9 TPH. Adequate for Queens Blvd, but not for Brooklyn R riders.
Agreed. When sufficient rolling stock is available you could increase both of them to 10 tph. That gives you an R every six minutes - not bad.
One extra TPH for Bay Ridge riders won't cut it, but I'm sure they'll gladly accept ANY service increase.
Wish we could give them more. One other way to do it is create short trips - train runs from 95 St which do not proceed into Queens.
When the Manny B reopens in 2004 (and hopefully Bergen Tower also), there will be the opportunity to revisit all this. I would urge those of you on this site who think it's important to write MTA and say so, giving copies of your letters to City Council and state assembly people.
Start this year, and ask MTA to take a fresh look at Brooklyn service, esp. the R, the M etc. and see what can be done to improve things. With enough people asking, planning will reflect this demand. Go for it.
Wish we could give them more. One other way to do it is create short trips - train runs from 95 St which do not proceed into Queens
Where would you turn them?
They could have done this when the 6th Ave side was open on the Bridge. In fact, they used to run a few rush hour R's from Forest Hills to 34th St for a while.
When the bridge is fully usable, and the N is back on the bridge, the R headways can be increased. 12 TPH would work nicely.
I don't know where I would turn them, to be honest. I wanted to avoid the Queens Blvd issue.
The Manny B (and more rolling stock) will help a lot.
If there are enough riders to fill a train every 5 minutes, you should have that many trains!
If there's capacity through DeKalb, turn them at Whitehall or Essex (which is set up better to turn trains from the south than Chambers, the terminal of the old brown R).
I think for now they should send the M to Bay Ridge. It makes so much sense it's almost scary the MTA never thought of that. Considering how busy Bay Ridge is, it's amazing the subway service there is so poor.
Read my earler post about why this is not a feasible service pattern.
You could run the R at 12 TPH, with the N & W at 9 per. That would balance service in Brooklyn, give Bay ridge riders 3 more TPH and not exceed the capacity of the 60th St. tube. But the N & R have to be balanced with each other, then with the W, to prevent logjams. Bay Ridge is screwed until the Manhattan Bridge can be fully used.
Gee wiz. Southern division riders feel the M service reliability is fantastic. Riders on the Met end think it runs lousy. What is wrong here?
Because they have more options.
N Bwy
They don't have the N, R and W to compare it with in Queens.
>>hello, my message for nycsubway.org is that I want to talk about subject that has been conerning Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. We in the community, want the MTA to put M Train service on the R Train route in Brooklyn. The reason that I have recently read, was that the R trains are always slow and unreliable. We decided we need the M Train to come to Bay Ridge, all times. But, the MTA has no response to that opposing question. I personally, would love for the M train run the route, all times between Metropolitan Avenue and 95 Street. Because we could have faster service to Bay Ridge. rather than the slow and unrelieable Broadway Local- R Train. Every time, I see a M Train passing through 36 Street with its big clucking nosie, I see no one taking the train, because everyone on the West End Line take the W Train and Only the W train. Why not, bring it to Bay Ridge, where the trains will be filled up to its capacity. So please respond to my plan of the future. Thank you for reading!<<
The school I go to is in a position where I have the option of taking any train home with at least one transfer. And I have taken both the M and R trains, trust me, the R is not slow and unreliable. The M on the other hand is. I can take the R train without gettin mad at myself for wasting carfare because it takes so god damn long for it to come. The M on the other hand, thank god every station within walking distance(with the acception af Broad street)is a station where I can transfer to another train. The R is way more reliable then the M will ever be. So I don't know where this Idea came where the R is slow.
Running the M down to 95th Street will only create more problems. 95th Street will get impossibly congested trying to get trains in and out.
Also, there was limited rush hour Nassau Street R service that was discontinued because of lack of ridership. Nobody cried when it went away. It wouldn't make sense to add it again.
9 R's and 8 M's. That's 17 TPH, less than what was run prior to the diamond R's elimination 15 years ago.
If you want to spend money, expand the 86th St station into the full 2 platform express stop it was designed to be expanded to. Then terminate the M here. Of course, that's just fantasy.
If you want to spend money, expand the 86th St station into the full 2 platform express stop
Nah - create the slow way under da Narrows to SI first, then when the suburbanites complain, add the express tracks!!!
Running the M to 95th makes sense, but operationally, it cannot be done. There is no storage yard down by the 95th St. terminal. Since the first M train from Metropolitan Ave doesn't even reach Pacific St. until 7:45 AM, many trains would be needed from some storage facility to begin M service before the first southbound M would reach 95th. This is easy at Bay Parkway on the W, with the CI yard right there.
Perhaps they should restore the diamond R route.
The first thru M train leaves Met at 6:19 AM and arrives at Pacific at 7:02 AM. Info courtesy if the M line timetable at "www.mta.info", then search for the M line schedule.
My mistake. I was meant to say "Bay Parkway", not Pacific. But the first outbound M leaves Bay Parkway almost an hour before the first inbound one arrives. This means 6-9 trains must be brought from a storage facility to go into service at the appropriate times. If you wanted to do this if the M moved from Bay Parkway to 95th St, they'd require several reverse moves north of 36th St, impossible during the morning rush. Another alternative is to lay up trains on the 4th Ave express tracks at night, but I believe this capacity is already used by R trains themselves. The third alternative is to start M service into Manhattan from Metropolitan Ave earlier. If you wanted to begin M service from 95th St at 6:30 AM, the first Manhattan bound train leaving Metropolitan Ave would have to be scheduled for 5 AM!
I agree.
The R-Train is pits I used to live in Bay Ridge and I must say that is one of the things I don't miss about the place.
Infrequent service and that Late Night Shuttle. Absolutely awful.
I remember gritting my teeth watching M trains roll by while waiting at 36 during PM Rush Hour.
I am writing because I am doing research on the NYC Subway system and Darius McCollum. I am trying find experts to interview for my project. Does anyone know of someone who would be willing to talk to me and a few of my colleagues? I would love to interview several people to get several different perspectives. Also, I would like to contact Philip Ashforth Coppola, Stan Fischler, or anyone else who has written extensively on the subway system. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Kind Regards,
Malinda Walford
At what educational level is this research being done?
Do contact MTA Govt. and Community Relations, in addition to using this excellent board. Call 212-878-7000 or write to them at 347 Madison Av, NY NY 10017.
Also, I would like to contact Philip Ashforth Coppola, Stan Fischler, or anyone else who has written extensively on the subway system.
Two other authors are Brian Cudahy (Under the Sidewalks of New York) and Clifton Hood (722 Miles). I was told that Mr. Coppola changed his name to Copp. Good luck with your project.
David
There are of a number of published authors and experts, some of whom are on this board, but what kind of expertise are you interested in? There are all kinds, and how would this relate to Darius?
I'm working on my Masters Thesis and it relates to transit.
Feel free to contact me.
Post on here what you would like to know. I would be happy to be of any assistance, and you'll find most of the guys here would help you as well. Just post what you would like to know.
Malinda Walford: please be very careful about this and use common sense in light of 911. This board was shut down previously because of another thesis writer inquiring about security in the system post 911. Make every effort to go through MTA channels. There are many knowledgable buffs and TA professionals on this site BUT system security remains the priority so do not be disappointed about a lack of response. Car Inspector Peter
My grandfather is a serious train buff in the midwest and, because of him, I am more interested in the history of the New York City Subway system, the evolution of it, and one's personal relationship to the system. As a child, my grandfather took me with him to watch different trains and taught me about the different engines and companies. He just finished composing a score dedicated to his favorite engine. I, myself, have been very interested in the different subway systems in other cities. I was particularly impressed with the system in Moscow because of the artwork and incredible efficiency. I would also love to talk to someone about the artwork in the NYC Subway system. I would love to talk to someone about the Grand Central Station and the original and "new" Penn Station. Also, any other resources, you can recommend would be greatly appreciated. This may be too general....Let me think about how to make this more specific.
Thanks
Malinda
Malinda, the resident expert hereabouts on the artwork of the subway system is Wayne Whitehorne... use the "feedback" section and select his name from the list to get a message to him (I seem to have misplaced his email address and I'm too lazy to go back through the posts and find it - he posts as Wayne-SlantR40 but I haven't seen him here recently). There is also at least one book out on the subject, although it's a bit dated now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is also at least one book out on the subject, although it's a bit dated now.
Does anyone know the title of this book?
David
Subway Ceramics: A History and Iconography, by Lee Stookey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you need more background material on the subject try The Red Caboose; Transit Museum store at Grand Central (both Manhattan); Willis Hobbies (Long Island); Shoreline Trolley Museum (CT).
Many of these will sell you stuff over the phone, but if you can't get there you would need some idea of what titles you are looking for.
"This board was shut down previously because of another thesis writer inquiring about security in the system post 911."
No, that's not why the board was shut down.
There's nothing wrong with the inquiry into the subway system. However, MTA can be very helpful..
I'll be glad to help however I can, if I can. Please feel free to contact me at your convenience.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.3 Coming Very Soon!
I still don't get why the V runs via 53 St and the F via 63 St. I know that if the F ran via 53rd, then G riders will have to transfer 2 times to get to a local stop from Court Sq, but one thing, isn't this the way it was, during pre-Manhattan Br. changes, pre- Dec16 V changes? Greenpointers didnt have a problem about it then, so why is it such a hassle now? Local stops between Qns Plza and Roosevelt don't get that much passengers from Greenpoint do they?
but before, the greenpoint riders had a one seat ride, on the G
I was talking about the weekend, where the G terminated at Court Sq and could either transfer to the E/F but no Queens local
oh, your right then, on weekends there i not much of a difference
I think the G now runs one weekends all the time.
N Bwy
There is less people pissed off on the weekends. About 2 cars less. But on weekdays it's either pissing off those 2 cars off or crowding people on the F and V going into 6 Avenue onto the F only.
You’re going to be here for a while, enjoy.
Here is my trip report from São Paulo, Brazil. I was there for two weeks hanging out with my friends there, watching all the hot women in their tight pants, eating the best food in the world, and of course, railfanning
See photos and other SP things HERE
How I broke my finger
I arrived in São Paulo on Friday August 2. For the weekend, I went with my friends to Santos, Guarujá and Camburi beaches. When I went to Camburi, I was walking around on some rocks maybe 5 or so feet above the water with the waves only coming up to my feet. Well, about 10 minutes later, this gigantic wave comes over my head and knocks me over to the ground, and the wet rocks made me slide all the way down into the violent water. The water was too deep to stand, and the waves breaking over me made it hard to swim. Good thing the tide was going in, otherwise I would have floated out instead of in. I floated into a little cove and my friend helped me out of the water. I had scrapes all over my right leg and body, and a broken finger. The lifeguard took me to a small hospital to get treated. And the hospital was FREE too (Hey Piggo12, you would have been proud J). This may not sound much, but if you were there, you’d know it was a much more intensive situation than I described.
Now for the fun stuff
Continuing my streak of bad luck, my @#&%!* digital camera’s focus broke on me before I could go railfanning. So much the hundreds of photos I was planning to take. So I had to buy a disposable camera to take photos. I mainly took shots of the commuter rail, since I already have plenty of Metro photos.
I divided this up into sections for each mode of transport. It may not sound consistent because I didn’t ride everything in order as I wrote it. However, within each section I did ride it in that order, but not all in the same day. Also, I’m skipping writing about Line 1 from Jabaquara to Sé , because I ride it all the time, and it’s not exciting anymore, plus there are a lot of pictures of that segment already on this site.
Please follow along with this MAP
Trólibus EMTU
You can see pictures from a previous trip HERE
In the southestern suburbs (the suburbs there look like full-fledged downtowns in the US) of São Paulo, there is a trolleybus BRT system which connects the district to the Metro at Jabaquara and commuter rail at Santo Andre. The area is known as the ABCD district, named for the four cities that make it up, Santo André, São Bernardo do Campo, São Caetano, and Diadema. I always stay in São Bernardo. The system is shaped like a “Y” and has 10 routes which terminate at any of the seven Metropolitan Terminals along the line. These terminals are located near the central areas of the ABCD district, and allow passengers to transfer to many other bus companies and routes. It takes 50 minutes to go from São Bernardo to Jabaquara, which is surprisingly slow, considering that it has its own ROW. It takes less than 30 minutes by car. Over 80 million people per year ride the EMTU. The stretch between Piraphorina and Jabaquara is the only unelectrified segment. Because of that, there are a mix of diesel and electric buses, plus both regular and articulated types. Regular buses have one entry door and two exit doors, and older articulateds are the same way. Newer articulateds have four doors, one entry and three exit. All buses have a turnstile in them and you can only enter with a ticket. There are many places that sell them near every bus stop. All segments of the system are pretty busy, so you can expect to stand no matter the time of day. During rush hour, it can get pretty packed. At Jabaquara and Santo André, where the system intersects with rail, you may have to wait for a couple of buses before getting on. The wait isn’t long though, at peak, each route has a five minute headway, and eight minutes the rest of the day. I’ve already ridden the whole system before, so I just stuck to using it for getting to the train stations.
Metrô do São Paulo
Read more about The Metro HERE
I had two segments to ride for to have ridden the whole system, Line 3 between Brás and Cornithians-Itaquera, and Line 1 between Luz and Tucuruvi. I wound up riding the entire system on this trip anyway, plus all of Line 6.
I first rode from Sé to Cornithians-Itaquera. The entire eastern half of Line 3 eerily resembles MARTA's East Line. The eastbound Line 3 train leaves the hub station Sé, the first two stations are elevated, then it’s ground level from then on alongside a railroad ROW, with two short tunnel segments. The MARTA East Line does the exact same thing! Even the ground level station layouts are the same. A station is next to the railroad ROW, and you access the station from the two parallel streets on either side by an aerial walkway to the mezzanine that is above the platform. I arrived at Itaquera, which is elevated with three tracks and two platforms. Past the station, the tracks continue elevated and turn right to the yard, which you can see in the distance. This station has the Line 6 platforms right next to the Line 3 platforms, but you need to go down and up the stairs to reach it.
Technically, Line 6 is still part of the commuter rail system, CPTM, and not the Metro. It will be turned over, along with Line 7, to the Metro next month at the same time Line 5 opens. Line 6 is just a bonus point and won’t count until next month towards riding the whole system. I have a lot of riding to do next time I’m down there.
Anyway, since Line 6 is part of the CPTM, there was no free transfer, but the fare was a paltry R$1,60 (about US$ 0.50). All the signage is in Metro style, and it looks like the line is ready for Metro operation. Unlike the other Metro lines, this one will keep the overhead wire power supply, plus the track gauge is international standard 1435 mm, the Metro uses 1600 mm, which is what BART uses. Also, the rolling stock will keep the CPTM color scheme. The rolling stock are all new cars made by CAF, they are 70 feet long and run in eight car trains. I first went out to the East end of the line, Guaianazes, a three track, two platform station. There is a free cross platform transfer to CPTM Line E. Line 6 used to be part of Line E. There are still track connections between Line E and Line 6, and it looks like they will remain there. The three western stations had a Franklin Shuttle-style renovation done to them, and the entire line looks brand new. Station Dom Bosco is beautiful with its circular steel work, painted red. Going east, the line acts as an express to Line 3. Line 6 was needed to relieve the over crowding on Line 3. Line 6 is slower than the Metro lines, I don’t know if the speed limits will increase when the Metro takes over. Riding alongside a Line 3 train is really cool. Since Line 6 runs about 10-50 feet north of Line 3, you can get a great view of the whole train, and not just the windows. The run between Itaquera and Tatuapé has several abandoned stations, evidence of the improvements that made this an express run. At Tatuapé, you can transfer to CPTM Line F and the Metro. Continuing to Brás, we crawled into the station due to all the construction for Project Integration (read below). Line 6 still uses the commuter rail station, but I wonder if some of the construction is for giving Line 6 a platform separate from the commuter lines. As you’ll read below, I already had a taste for commuter rail, but it caught me by surprise when we stopped at the station. The train was pretty empty, since I was going inbound during afternoon rush hour. I got up and stood by the door, and when the doors opened, I literally got knocked back to the middle of the car by the people rushing to get one of the precious few seats before the whole train was packed to capacity. I had to fight my way out of the train. It was fun.
The last segment needed was on Line 1. I got to Luz and noticed the mezzanine reminded me of an IND mezzanine. It was the length of the whole platform below and had low ceilings. The stretch between Tiradentes and Santana was just like a NYC elevated. It ran down the middle of the street with buildings on either side. The segment was perfectly straight and you can see the other stations and trains behind and ahead of us. When I was little, my family had friends who lived near this segment, I remember driving by it all the time, yet I never rode it and had no clue where it was or where it went. Riding for the first time last week, it seemed like I knew everything about it. I knew what the stations looked like, and where the line dips down underground after Santana. At Tucuruvi, the station is underground with side platforms. You can see beyond the station the tunnel portal and a small lay-up yard, it looked to be about four tracks that could hold one train each.
I went out to Barra Funda, where there is a free transfer between the Metro and CPTM stations. There are free-wheeling turnstiles between the two areas for passenger counting. This is the busiest station in the system in terms of passenger entry, 125 thousand people per weekday and over 38 million per year. When I got to the station, rush hour was just starting, and it was fairly crowded. I went over to the CPTM platforms and watched three trains come in. I went back up and the whole mezzanine was extremely crowded, and this is a big mezzanine. The way Metro trains relay here is that a Westbound train will come in, discharge all the passengers, a T/O enters the last car, and continues past the station ¼ mile to switch tracks, and the T/O in the last car powers up and they are going Eastbound. From the passengers’ perspective, Barra Funda is a normal station stop. Going back to the eastbound platform, I saw from the escalator just how crowded the place was. There is one island platform, two side platforms and two tracks. Both sides of the Eastbound track were at least seven people deep along the whole platform. The flow of people onto the platform was non-stop. I timed several trains and the headway was roughly 90 seconds. Every train that departed was completely full. I saw one train pass the station (it was kissing the ass of the train in front of it) so that the passengers at the intermediate stations would have a chance to get on.
When every train departs Sé, it’s going to leave full no matter what. Think about this: Times Square, the busiest station in NYCT, has five separate stations, 10 platforms, and 13 lines. About 500,000 people use this station everyday. On the other hand, Sé has only six platforms and two lines, and it sees over 650,000 people per day. Does Times Square seem so busy now? Sé is the busiest station in the system, counting transferring passengers. The way Sé handles it is beautiful. Each line has one island platform and two side platforms, just like Five Points on MARTA. Here, the island platforms are for exit only, and the sides are for entry only. The exit doors open first, then the entry doors five seconds later, and both sides close at the same time. That way, you have no conflict of people trying to enter and exit through the same door. Trains can be in and out of the station in only a few seconds longer than at a regular station. There are several station with this setup, I already mentioned Barra Funda, but there are also Luz, Republicá, and Brás. It’s interesting to note that Republicá has already been planned for Line 4 that will eventually intersect this station, since it currently is the only station like this with no transfer.
The volume of people the Metro handles on a daily basis always amazes me. Over 700 million people per year use this 30 route mile system. Yes, THIRTY. When the entire system is completed by around 2009, it is projected to carry over 1.5 billion people per year on an 88 route mile system. Unbelievable.
Ferrovia CPTM
Photos from CPTM HERE
Riding the commuter rail system there was my first time riding commuter rail, ever. That’s actually somewhat surprising considering I’ve ridden almost 20 subways and light rail systems.
What a hell of a way to start. I walked from Metro station Luz to the Estasção da Luz, Station of the Light. And the station is as grand as the name sounds. It was built between 1895 and 1901 and is the oldest of the three major commuter rail stations. Barra Funda and Brás are the other two. Right now, construction is under way to renovate and expand Luz, which is part of Project Integration. A new passageway underneath the platforms will allow room for more passengers and the better connect to the Metro Luz station. Because of construction, there is only one operating track and one platform that is being used for passenger service.
Project Integration is a huge downtown project that will better connect the three downtown commuter stations, and allow Line 6 to have seamless through service to Barra Funda, where the line will ultimately end, on its own tracks. It looks like they are going ahead and building the initial section of Line 4, which will terminate at Luz when completed in 2005. There is a big trench along the road where Line 4’s path is. The station Brás is undergoing an expansion to add extra capacity for more trains. I don’t know when the project will be completed.
When I got to Luz, it was rush hour. I got on a train bound for Brás so I could get on Line D to Santo Andre. The train was full, but it was not packed as I soon would experience. Because of reduced capacity at Luz, more trains are terminating at Brás instead, making it very crowded. I got the Brás train and went to the Line D platform. As I was waiting, I was watching an empty Line 6 train pull in (at the time, I didn’t know it was Line 6). When the doors opened and I saw the people running a shoving others over for a seat, and watched the whole train fill to over capacity in less than 20 seconds, my jaw dropped. Then my train came. Everyone moved as close to possible to the doors, and everyone just “flowed” in. I had no choice but to get on, since I was being pushed by everyone behind me. The rolling stock on this line has extra wide doors, which really helped getting the people on faster. No words can do justice for how crowded this train was. I was standing in the middle of the aisle, and I didn’t have to hold on to anything, because the six people I was practically making love to held me in place. Somehow, I ended up by the door with my face pressed against the glass. When we stopped at a station, everyone swelled out of the doors, and usually only one or two people got out. But it was nice getting a bit of fresh air fir a few seconds. I think the body heat produced on that train could power it. When we got to Santo André, nearly half the train poured out, and it took a minute or so for me to reach the stairs. This line operates on 8 minute headways (isn’t this good for commuter rail?) during rush hour with six 85x10 foot cars with bench seating, and it’s still this crowded. Insane. I’ve ridden on the Lex during rush hour, and that is child’s play compared to this.
I noticed how many windows were shattered like an automobile windshield shattering. At first I thought it was vandalism (although a lot is, you can see big holes from where rocks are probably thrown), but then I though that maybe the shattered doors could have been from so many people causing too much pressure on the doors, that they shattered. Is this realistic? Because it sounds not, but I really wouldn’t be surprised if it were true.
Later, when I rode Line 6 and got off at Brás, I rode back on Line D to Santo André. I was standing next to the platform edge, I started to get nervous because I was afraid that I would be pushed into the train while it was still slowing down by the people trying the gather next to a door. When the train came to a stop and we were waiting at the door, some people started to push through and others were shouting, “Calm down” and “Wait for the people to get off.” When the people got off, then those same persons said, “Alright let’s go!” And the usual race to get on started. I was going to try to get a picture of the inside to show how crowded it was, but I couldn’t move my arm enough to get my camera out of my pocket.
In the afternoon on another day, I went to Santo André to get downtown, instead going via Jabaquara as I normally do. The train had a lot of people, but not really crowded. I had some good views of freight trains and the skyscrapers in São Caetano and Ipranga. This train terminated at Luz instead of Brás, but most people got off at Brás anyway
At Barra Funda, this station has eight tracks and six platforms. The trains that come through here can be very long. One Line B train I saw was 12 cars long.
One thing that I don’t understand is that all the commuter lines run the trains on the left side instead the right. Even Line 6 does this. The Metro runs on the right, cars drive on the right. Any guesses?
To help you understand the crowding more, the CPTM carries over 1.3 million on weekdays and 329 million people per year on approx 178 route miles. LIRR only carries 105 million on 300+ route miles. So next time you’re on a crowded LIRR train, imagine if they crammed triple the amount of people and the cars have only bench seats.
That’s it. Questions? Comments? I may not have explained sometihng clearly and missed it, let me know if you want anything clariflied.
Interesting report, Rob.
Question: were the original rail lines built by British engineers? They did do quite a bit of railroad construction in other South American countries; if they were the builders of the original lines in Brazil that would explain the left-handed operation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Searching through the offical CPTM website, I found that yes, British company Robert Sharp and Sons did work on part of the system back in the late 19th century. I guess left-handed operation is a leftover from the past.
Excellent report. I still can't get over the pax volumes. Unbelieveable.
Funny thing about Sao Paulo, for such a huge city and major commercial center, it has a very low profile ... conservatively speaking, 90% of Americans couldn't find it on a map and 95% couldn't pronounce it correctly :)
Absolutely correct. It's the third largest city in the world, yet my friend called his dad from down there and his dad asked, "How do you get around?" "By buses and subways" "What, they have buses and subways down there!?" The bus system has over 11,000 buses, 800 routes and carries 2.5 billion people per year, BTW. The city is the world's best kept secret, and I'm sure I'd have a hard time convincing NYers that the food there is 20x better than NYC cra...food. Oh well, not my loss :-)
And for those who don't know, it's pronouced SAWN Paulo. the tilde (~)above the "a" followed by an "o" makes an "-awn" sound in Portuguese. And for more useless triva, "-ção" (SEE-awn) directly translates into "-tion" in English.
Peter, did you get a chance to see the Congonhas Airport photos from the first link in my post? I probably will post it on A.net sometime later.
My friend said yesterday (8/23) he was on a northbound #1 train stuck at Rockaway Ave around 3:30PM. He questioned the T/O as to the delay and she said there was a fire at Utica Ave.
In a rush to get to Atlantic and Flatbush Aves, he went down stairs and flagged a livery cab who took him there. He said when he passed Utica there were fire trucks all over the place.
Anyone know the details of any fire at Utica Ave ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes there was a Track fire south of Utica on the Uptown tracks. I was one of the southbound trains there sent to New Lots anyway but there was smoke on the southbound PLatform. Uptown No.1,2,4,5 Trains where stuck in and out of Stations from Sutter Ave to New Lots and Southbound from Penn Ave to New Lots.
Enjoy my presence for the next few days. I just got back from London and will try to make a trip report before I go on my next trip. I would like to take a moment now though to thank the SubTalkers who suggested parts of the Underground to check out on my visit, I made it to all of those places (although I have since realized I sort of missed one, I rode by there but didn't take pictures). I got on every Underground line except the East London and I also rode the DLR from Island Gardens to Bank. All in all, pretty sucessful. More details later, I am going to turn in now so I can try to adjust to the time change.
SO how is London itself?
Fine for the most part, a wonderful transport museum. I liked Greenwich quite a bit (if that counts as London, too).
Can anyone here identify train and bus manufacturers and models if I showed them the pictures? Be greatly appreciated for my website captions. Also, what are the different types of stock on the Underground Lines? Here is what I gathered:
A Stock-Met, E London, W&C
B Stock???
C Stock-Circle, District (Edgware-Wimbeldon), H&C
How does one identify the tube stock? I think Bakerloo and Victoria are 1957, what are the others?
Thanks in advance!
Bakerloo Line - 1972 Stock (aka Mk II Stock) - 1967 and 1992 stock can also run on this line - 1959 stock used to be able to run here
Central Line - unmodified 1992 Stock - no other stock can run on this line - 1962 stock used to be able to run here
Circle Line - C Stock - A Stock can run between Aldgate and Edgware Road (but only using the central two tracks at Edgware Road), D stock can run between High St Kensington and Minories Junction (just south of Aldgate)
District Line: Edgware Road-Wimbledon C stock is used (D stock not allowed between Hi St Ken and Edgware Rd as the platforms are too short, also the bay platform at Putney Bridge is too short)
District Line: rest of it D stock is used - any stock is allowed except A stock (which is too wide to operate on most of the line - exceptions: Earl's Court - Hi St Ken, Hi St Ken - Gloucester Rd - Mansion House, Aldgate East - Barking) - only C and D stock are allowed on the Wimbledon and Richmond branches
East London Line A stock is used (4 cars) - C stock and 1973 stock is also permitted - other stock will fit onto the line, but will only fit the platform length at New X Gate and Whitechapel (or around the St Mary's Curve into Aldgate East)
Hammersmith & City Line C stock only - A stock and D stock are too wide except for between Edgware Road (middle tracks) and Aldgate Junction - single units of A and D stock will JUST fit as far as Hammersmith, but coupled units won't
Jubilee Line 1996 Stock (as this is set up for ATO, no other stock can use the line whilst it's switched on; also the 1996 stock can only run on the Jubilee Line for signalling reasons) - when ATO is off, 1959, 1967, 1972, 1973 and 1992 stock can use the whole line - when ATO is off, A and C stock can use the section North of Finchley Road
Metropolitan Line A stock (8 Cars, 4 Cars on Chesham shuttle) - all LU stock (with the possible exception of 1996 stock) and almost all mainline stock will fit on the Met
Northern Line 1995 stock is used (6 cars) - 1959 stock used to be used (7 cars) - surprise, surprise, it's overcrowded now! - 1967, 1972 and 1992 stock can also be run on this line
Northern City Line Class 313 EMUs - nothing else allowed (I think C stock might fit, but getting it there would be fun)
Piccadilly Line 1973 stock (6 cars, the ones with the extra luggage space - this line goes to Heathrow) - 1959 stock can also run on this line, 1967 and 1972 stock can run as far as Arnos Grove (there are also a whole host of Piccadilly Line sidings which 1967 stock are forbidden from), A, C and D stock can operate West of Baron's Court, with certain speed restrictions on A and C stock
Piccadilly Line - Aldwych Shuttle 1973 stock (3 cars) is all that is now permitted (not that it matters much - this working is no longer there), 1959 stock was also allowed IIRC
Victoria Line 1967 stock (ATO equipped) - this can run elsewhere if provided with a driver and limited to 30mph - other tube stock (1959, 1972, 1973, 1992 and 1995) can run, but requires ATO to be off and special dispensation from management...
The Drain (aka the Waterloo and City Line) modified 1992 stock ONLY
There is no B stock at present, because the A, C and D stock are not an alphabetical list - they stand for Amersham, Circle and District respectively. Going back into prehistoric times, the Metropolitan District Railway did indeed have an alphabetical system of labelling stock - they had their own completely different A stock, B stock, C stock, D stock.... Q stock and R stock. The B stock in that series dated from 1927.
The tragedy of September 11th has overshadowed an event which happened last year in September just before the WTC was destroyed - the Try Transit Festival which was held in Hoboken, NJ at the train terminal. I went there last year and it was wonderful, but then two days later we were plunged nto a nightmare of great proportions. will the festival be held again this year? If anybody out there knows, let me know.
NJT is planning on having one at Exchange Place Sept 30, the day after they expect HBLR to reach Hoboken. It seems logical to have a dual event in Hoboken that Sunday.
The Exchange Place followup to the Hoboken Try Transit last year was supposed to be on Sept 12. Imagine the additional chaos at Exchange Place it they had been set up a day earlier!
The tragedy of September 11th has overshadowed an event which happened last year in September just before the WTC was destroyed - the Try Transit Festival which was held in Hoboken, NJ at the train terminal. I went there last year and it was wonderful, but then two days later we were plunged into a nightmare of great proportions. will the festival be held again this year? If anybody out there knows, let me know.
Yes - Sunday 29 September
Just to complete a historical perspective, the first operation of R-62As on the 6 occured on June 16, 1986 with new cars 1802, 1803, 1805, 1853, 1857, 1858, 1862, 1864, 1868 and 1870. Reminiscent of present times, the TA used "borrowed" R-62As from the 1 in 6 service for the first couple of months. The first cars actually assigned to Westchester were 1651-1686 as of August 18, 1986.
The rest is history.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
....And 1651-1675 came home after spending a decade away from Broadway. Incredible!
-Stef
PATCO has decided to purchase and install a new farecard collection system that will work like EZ-Pass, and will also accept purchases with paper money at vending machines. The current magnetic card system is 30 years old and parts are no longer made for it.
The consulting firm of Booz Allen Hamilton has been selected to do the work.
The consulting firm of Booz Allen Hamilton has been selected to do the work.
Whatever happened to "in-house expertise"? PATCO are the people who are going to have to live with the procured system for 30 more years. In 30 years, Booz Allen Hamilton could be BoozAllenHamiltonPriceWaterHouseCoopersArthurAndersonDRIWEFAWorldBank Associates.
AEM7
The current magnetic card system is 30 years old and parts are no longer made for it.
Only 30 years? I guessed the vintage as closer to mid 60's when I saw them a few years ago. They make the IBM ones on Bart look Buck Rogers...
Hopefully the new ones won't have the 'feature' the old ones have where one can actually get stuck in a station because the damm thing won't take your card.....
Well, the system is mid-60's, but the card reading machines were repalced in the 1970's to a different model. The original system used to work like the DC Metro with two little clam shell gates. You would enter, put in card, rear clam would close, card is accepted, front clam opens.
That's certainly good news... I think PATCO's fare collection system is by far the weakest link on an otherwise excellent transit system. Hopefully they'll also introduce weekly and monthly unlimited-ride passes, which would make commuting on PATCO much more attractive to a lot of people.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually, what would be even nicer would be if SEPTA also replaced their decrepit turnstiles with a farecard system that's compatible with PATCO's, and set it up to allow some sort of reduced-fare transfer between the two systems. But we'll probably see PATH accepting MetroCards before that happens.
-- David
Chicago, IL
and set it up to allow some sort of reduced-fare transfer between the two systems
Why should it? As it stands, PATCO generates fairly good revenue, especially after the recent fare hikes, and it is relatively immuine from Philadelphia politics. Joint-fare agreement with SEPTA will take both away.
I will support a PATCO-SEPTA pact if and only if PATCO retains complete control over pricing their segment of the trip and that the joint fare covers PATCO costs as if it were a single fare, with the discount hit taken by SEPTA. Just like the NJT/SEPTA pact.
AEM7
I am under the impression that PATCO loses a lot of money every year, and is subsidized by bridge tolls.
PATCO runs two-car trains off-peak, which saves on wear-and-tear, but you still have to pay the T/O whether he's driving two cars or six. A fair number of those two-car trains are nearly empty (contrast that to PATH, where reverse-peak direction trains are now seeing a lot more passengers than they used to).
I would venture to guess that PATCO's % of operating costs covered by the fare is lower than the Market-Frankford line's. Would a fare-coordination system not encourage higher PATCO ridership?
There is a 'joint-fare' system which few know about and apparently is little publicized any more. At NJ PATCO stations one can buy the joint fare ticket good for a round trip on SEPTA (and it's so not-known that I forget how much it is!). SEPTA cashiers at 8th/Market and Walnut-Locust can also issue a return ticket (to be validated at the joint fare dispensers at NJ PATCO stations) for folks starting their trips in Phila.
The farecard system has long been a headache and PATCO has been looking at a replacement system for at least 15 years. The problem is twofold - one, PATCO wanted to tie it to the parking fees, since a large number of riders use the lots, and two, a tie to the joint fare arrangements (with both SEPTA and NJT buses) was also desired.
PATCO differs from BART and WMATA in that one purchases a specific destination ticket with a fixed value. PATCO considered the stored-value method but it would have to place 'addfare' machines at each station, like BART and WMATA, and neither of these systems' fare collection is anything to write home about anyway. PATCO could use the stored-value card if SEPTA, NJT and parking lots would take it, and it has no control over the first two.
The local 'myth' is that PATCO is heavily subsidized by tolls. Tolls do make up the difference but PATCO is a surprisingly 'lean' operation as transit agencies go. As it approaches its 35th birthday next year, it will obviously have to address rehab issues (some have already started, such as stations, track, etc), and the big question remains on the fleet, since the newer cars are already over 20 years old.
There is a 'joint-fare' system which few know about and apparently is little publicized any more...
It's not a "joint-fare". It's a PATCO transfer. If you board at a PATCO stop, purchase the full fare to Phila, then you can buy, at a machine inside fare control, for a cheaper transfer to PATCO. I think the machines are $0.85 per SEPTA ride instead of $2.00 if you pay cash, and $1.30 if you buy round-trip. There, the discount occurs at the SEPTA end. You've still paid the full PATCO fare. I agree and support this. The validation ritual is you hhave to get your SEPTA transfer "stamped" with the time and date by a machine also inside fare control, so you can't buy SEPTA transfers and use them on a later trip to Phila by car or other means. These fares were 2000 fares and may have gone up since then.
The issues behind PATCO pricing is this. For the last 10 years, PATCO management had been transit types who are not very commercially aware rather than Port Authority types. They had not risen their single fares for 15 or more years prior to the 2001 fare hike. The result is that the farebox recovery was steadily dropping and more and more "undesirable" people are using the system -- undesirable in the sense that they ride during the peak. Now, before someone starts advocating even lower fares, I want you to notice something: remember I said the farebox revenue was STEADILY DROPPING in real terms during a time when fares were held constant? This suggests further fare cuts will lower the system revenue, as the induced demand is insufficient to cover the losses due to lower price.
PATCO trains, at peak hours, are fairly full, with probably about average 105% load factor (and some people were sitting in the T/O stand at the back end of the train when I was last there). At peak times, there are often standees, but not many. This is the way it should be: if we lower the fares even further systemwide, then we will have many more standees at peak hours, and would need new rolling stock and signalling systems modification. Both are expensive and undesirable.
PATCO needs to drop its fares at off-peak hours, perhaps, to encourage more ridership. The current PATCO fares are fairly good for peak hour coverage, producing a load factor somewhere near ideal. Of course, if PATCO find they could maintain this load factor during the peak even if they raised fares by 20%, they should do it.
PATCO has long been hailed as a star in transit for good fare recovery and high levels of service. High levels of service, even with public subsidy or bridge toll subsidy (which isn't true in the case of PATCO), is not sustainable without a high fare because politically the guy who's sbusidizing gets pissed off. If PATCO were to decrease its level of service to match the lower fares, the trains they would cut would be the off-peak trains you mention that have very little ridership. PATCO would become unusable for people who don't ride in the peak and costs per-paxmile on the whole would probably rise because of the higher percentage of peak riders which are expensive to cater to.
PATCO does it well. SEPTA is the one that's needing reform.
AEM7
There is a SEPTA to PATCO transfer. Its not publisized and I don't know how it is suposted to work, but it does exist.
I won't split hairs over whether it's a transfer or joint fare arrangement, but the fact remains that there is a fare deal between SEPTA and PATCO and this has been in place since the beginning of the operation. It is a successor to the same sort of 'deal' in place when the Bridge Line was in operation.
One thing I didn't mention, and have heard on and off, is PATCO's thought to have a higher peak-hour fare. This isn't do-able with the current farecard system but could occur with a revised fare collection system. I've heard this is one of the main reasons behind the move to get away from the current setup (in addition to the technology being outdated).
PATCO has taken a lot of heat for the reduction of the express and short-line service over the years (I think maybe 3 expresses run in the AM and 1 in the PM) but it has always touted this as better service for those who use the closer-in stops (and were bypassed by the express trains). The bridge and Locust St subway are the big capacity constraints here - only so many trains can run, and PATCO has elected to run many more all-stops than in years gone by. Admittedly the expresses only saved a minute or two along the length of the route anyway.
PATCO has been subsidized by tolls and has also been the recipient of FTA capital funding over the past 10 years or so, after years of being totally self-sufficient. Seeing the 'investments' DRPA is making with the toll funds (e.g. the revitalization of Camden, real estate purchases in Camden, the River Tram and Ferry), PATCO subsidies shouldn't bother anyone.
PATCO has been subsidized by tolls and has also been the recipient of FTA capital funding over the past 10 years or so... Seeing the 'investments' DRPA is making with the toll funds, PATCO subsidies shouldn't bother anyone
It would appear that the reason DRPA took on the FTA funding is not because it needed it, but more because the money was there. Witness the recent enhancements: fire supression systems, station refurbishment in cheesy colors. Those were enhancements that produced little utility to the customer. Just a way to spend Federal dollars. Even PATCO employees claim that the fire supression system is not needed and will not be effective against big-ass fires. Just like the fire-detection system in the Big Dig tunnels.
Recently, PATCO has had more of a case of requiring FTA capital funding, with tie replacements in progress and vehicle replacements due shortly. However, even with FTA funding, they have not been able to avoid raising fares.
PATCO subsidies bother me because it signals a transition from the fundamental PATCO philosophy of ensuring a choice crowd through a high-fare, high-service strategy towards a low-fare, captive customer strategy. This has been proven time and again to lead to eventually run-down of the system because sooner or later the subsidizing party feel it is no longer necessary to subsidize a run-down system which nobody uses except those who don't have any alternatives. If PATCO retain its high-service strategy, which can only be funded through high-fares (and such a need for self-sufficiency promotes responsible fiscal behaviour), then it is much more likely to survive as the transportation provider of choice.
Witness Cleveland RTA -- the ultimate low-fare, low-service strategy. Their system is continually being cut back, regardless of much Federal capital dollars in the 1980s. The service has deteriorated to the extent that it is considered unusable except by those who have no other means of travel. If RTA light rail fares were doubled, and the service were doubled, many more people would consider using RTA than today. Transit systems need to reach out to the car-owning crowd, like PATCO has, instead of focusing on the carless crowd.
AEM7
Hey, before the stations were rehabbed they looked like total shit. Those "cheesy colours" are a 300% improvement. Besides, the paint and coverings are needed to protect the station structure from deterroriating.
The fire supression system was probably made available through special funds (possibly 9/11 related) that could not have been applied to any other sort of improvement. Since it was effectivly "free", it would be stupid not to install it. I think that the new tunnel lighting system might also fall under this banner.
Most of PATCO's current $$$ is going to rehab the 30 year old RoW that saw no capital investment from 1968 to 2002. The RoW is washout prone in centain places, the power pole lines are falling over in palces, the contrete viaducts are cracking, all the ties need replacement, much of the Subway portion still runs on jointed rail.
PATCO's main function is to east the major traffic problems on the area bridges during peak times. Peak times also include various events in with city like parades, festivals and events down in the sports complex. PATCO's very high fares forces most groups (familes, friends, etc) into their cars. Most people that I talk to would like to use PATCO on an off-rush hour basis, but it costs too darn much. David Cole told me that he probably won't use PATCO to get to classes bbecause it would be cheaper to drive despite the fact he will be working w/in 2000ft of a PATCO station.
BTW, there is NO PLAN to replace ANY of the PATCO Budd cars. They are going to run until at least 2020 according to employees.
David Cole told me that he probably won't use PATCO to get to classes bbecause it would be cheaper to drive despite the fact he will be working w/in 2000ft of a PATCO station.
True. It might be a different story if PATCO directly served the Drexel campus, but the hassle and expense of making a transfer to SEPTA just isn't worth it. My classes are in the evenings, so traffic shouldn't be too horrible. (I'll be going across the bridge in the reverse-peak direction, and by the time my classes let out, traffic should be nil.) I've already gotten myself an EZ-Pass for my car.
I agree that PATCO's fares are pretty outrageous for off-peak travel. During my last couple visits to Philly, I found it much cheaper and more convenient to drive into the city rather than take PATCO. In fact, the only times I took PATCO were specifically so I could do some railfanning. Unless I worked in Center City, I wouldn't consider PATCO for day-to-day commuting.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well I used it to take classes at UPenn. The per day cost was $6.25 and walking from my house I could get to Penn in 50 minutes. If you use the SEPTA transfer, the train change at 8th and Market is painless and you can read the Metro paper while you wait. I also then made a transfer to the Surface Subway at 30th St which took me to 37th where I was 500' from my building. YOu would probably get off at 33rd.
Making a transfer from PATCO to MFL and MFL to SS is no more painful than sitting at a traffic light in your car. Keeping your car is Colingswood is far safer than driving to and parking in Philly.
From your office you could be at Drexel in 40 minutes w/ transit. If you drove it would probably take you at least 30, IF the traffic was in your favour AND you knew the different shortcut ways of getting on the Adrimal Willson Blvd AND you drove aggressivly. It is simply not worth it.
The per day cost was $6.25 and walking from my house I could get to Penn in 50 minutes...
Compare to $2.70 for the bridge toll and a couple dollars for parking, and driving is still cheaper.
Making a transfer from PATCO to MFL and MFL to SS is no more painful than sitting at a traffic light in your car.
If I'm sitting at a traffic light, I remain seated in a comfortable seat and I continue to listen to some cool music on the radio. If I'm making a transfer, I have to walk up some stairs and stand on a crowded subway platform. Yes, I'm a lazy slob.
From your office you could be at Drexel in 40 minutes w/ transit.
Even during the evening rush, the drive from Collingswood to Drexel is about 20-30 minutes. I timed it last week just to be sure.
IF the traffic was in your favour AND you knew the different shortcut ways of getting on the Adrimal Willson Blvd AND you drove aggressivly...
Traffic will be in my favor, I can quickly learn the shortcuts, and I drive very aggressively. I'll survive.
Also, keep in mind that as an architecture student, I'll frequently be transporting large models and rolls of drawings. As much as I generally favor public transit, it's simply not a viable option for me.
And since I'll likely be living in Maple Shade, I'd much rather be able to drive straight home from Drexel on highway 38 after a long day, rather than taking SEPTA to 8th/Market, then transferring to PATCO after a long wait, and then driving home from Collingswood.
If PATCO extends their line to Drexel and also builds a new line to Maple Shade, then maybe I'll reconsider.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Compare to $2.70 for the bridge toll and a couple dollars for parking, and driving is still cheaper.
Yah, the whole point of PATCO is to attract choice customers like Mike. People who can't afford PATCO should drive and congest out there. If you can't afford to take PATCO, you shouldn't bitch about it. Obviously you're not PATCO's target customer.
Same logic applies to taking Amtrak from BOS to PVD.
AEM7
I could easily afford PATCO if I chose to, and I wasn't bitching. I was simply stating that taking PATCO everyday wouldn't be a viable option for my situation. That would remain true even if PATCO was free. However, if my car died (a distinct possibility) and I was left with no other choice, then PATCO/SEPTA would be my fallback. By your logic, PATCO should raise their fares to $50 each way so that they could run empty trains up and down their tracks. Maybe you should pull your head out of your ass long enough to get some fresh air.
Even worse than that, your tone on most of your SubTalk postings is arrogant, abrasive, and combative, and your presence here is like a black hole of joy. This will go a long ways in making people hate you, but it looks like you're well down that road already.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Speaking of PATCO's inadequacies, what's the latest talk on PATCO expansion? I hear rumblings every now and then, none of which seem particularly likely to reach fruition. For example, crowding on the 55 corridor has gotten some people talking about a southern branch, but I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm curious if anyone else has heard anything, has any more insights or opinions, or has dreams of where new lines should go in a perfect world.
Mark
And just in case this question has been addressed in this thread already, I was away from my computer for a week and missed a lot. If this is the case, please simply refer me to the relevant postings.
The thread on possible PATCO expansion started two weeks ago.
Dave,
Speaking as one poster who has, admittedly, been abrasive in the past, including toward AEM-7, (and occasionaly does so now when I become impatient), look at it this way: Subtalk (and the Internet in general, really) is like a boxing ring. If you get into it with somebody, it's best not to be abrasive, but if it does happen, as long as the butting of heads stops "offline" and you agree to treat the person civilly, then no harm done. I'm not saying all manner of posting is acceptable - only that once off the board, the boxing stops.
Look at it another way. AEM-7 is 22 years old. With time and experience it's possible he'll wizen up a bit (or maybe he won't - his choice). No harm done, really. If you really don't like his posts, don't read them, or use the kill file.
If I am ever through Boston in the future I would drop by MIT and offer AEM-7 a soda and friendly conversation, regardless of our Subtalk exchanges. If he declined, it would be his loss.
AEM-7 is 22 years old.
That's not a problem. People who are 50 can wisen up.
Even 115 year olds who have 1-day left to live can wisen up in that one day. Not by much, but still.
"Even 115 year olds who have 1-day left to live can wisen up in that one day. Not by much, but still."
You are an optimist. I like that.
He's 23 or 24.
Even worse than that, your tone on most of your SubTalk postings is arrogant, abrasive, and combative, and your presence here is like a black hole of joy.
While some people get along with one another, others don't. I suspect that you're the type of person I wouldn't get along with in person, and there's little reason why we would get along on "Subtalk". Because I've basically decided that I don't like you, it is likely that I would pick your posts apart, perhaps put words in your mouth and deliberately mis-interpret things to make you look like a fool. I do all this because I am bored. Of course, you're welcome to do the same thing to me, but why waste your time? Surely you have better things to do with your time? For my part, I just enjoy annoying those people I don't like. If you become annoyed... ha, well I've just won, right?
The honest truth is that I really don't care that much whether you hate me or not. Hate is a strong word, and I've not even gotten that far with you.
AEM7
How pathetic. There's nothing lower than somebody who feels the need to build themself up by tearing other people down. Have a nice life.
-- David
Chicago, IL
But lower people win, right? Witness Bush? If you even *think* that you have integrity or are doing the "right thing", you will never get anywhere in life...
AEM7
Well, at least nobody will ever accuse you of being a hypocrite. I'll give you credit for that much.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Bridge is $3 and parking is at least $5. Not to mention that you're paying for gas, maintainence and there is a elevated risk of accident driving into the city which also carries a cost.
"...parking is at least $5." (in Philly)
That's putting it mildly...
Sheesh, give it a rest already. The bridge toll is $2.70 because I use an EZ-Pass. I can also get a Drexel parking permit for $100 per quarter, which comes out to about $4.00 per day (two evenings per week). I'll be paying for gas and maintenance no matter what, and I can get into an accident just about anywhere. So far I've been pretty good at avoiding them, and that includes many years of driving in Chicago and other large cities.
And even if it does cost more to drive, it's still an easier commute for me, for all the reasons I've already mentioned. End of story.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't think I'd necessarily call PATCO a 'high fare' service, especially when compared to SEPTA Regional Rail and NJT buses in the same local area. PATCO has always strived to be 'high reliability' or 'high end' service-wise, and it continues to attract that clientele, but it also serves the lower end of the economic spectrum, i.e. reverse commute and 'captive' riders (one of the biggest complaints against PATCO a few years after it opened is how it 'ghetto-ized' parts of Lindenwold - many apartment complexes were built in the area, relatively close to the PATCO terminal, and many city folks moved to the 'country'). There's nothing wrong with transit serving everyone. In fact, it's something that transit is supposed to do.
As I noted, PATCO is hardly a 'high fare' service. Before the last round of fare hikes, the fare had been constant since the mid 80's. Service has not been compromised. Although I noted the loss of express service, and others have commented on how such turns vehicles around more quickly, the problem remains at the west end where the track layout forces stored trains to occupy track space or take unnecessary trips back to Lindenwold. The Ferry Ave short turns of days gone by allowed a train or two to be stored there in the midday, but this doesn't occur any more. The result is that the Locust St subway becomes an effective single-track line east of 12th-13th and this starts to limit capacity in the late AM rush. Even so, it has a 98%+ on-time record.
If anything is 'chasing' ridership away, from what I've heard, it's the destination of riders. Walk down (south) on 16th St or 15th St between 7:30 and 8 AM on any workday and it's like paddling against the current - those coming at you are nearly all PATCO riders heading toward the office towers at Penn Center. As the employment centers move further west from City Hall (and further north of Market St), PATCO users are finding it less convenient to take the train and easier to drive all the way. The opening of Vine St (I-676) through Center City 12 years ago has also made driving easier. The two most-recent office building developments in town - 17th/Kennedy and 30th St - are both inconvenient to PATCO. And, as David Cole's posts indicate, students to Drexel, Penn and Temple are finding other easier ways also.
I think PATCO does a fine job and SEPTA could learn a few things from it. And, as they say, if it (i.e. PATCO ain't broke, don't fix it
So maybe we need to extend PATCO west to the river, or beyond.
A PATCO extension south and west could be paired with economic development efforts...
If anything is 'chasing' ridership away, from what I've heard, it's the destination of riders.
The closing of Gimbels and Lits at 8th & Market is also a significant factor, especially Gimbels, since there's been a hole in the ground for several years. Early in PATCO's existance, half of its riders used the 8th & Market station, many to transfer to the MFSE, but many who worked there, too.
A new office complex at 8th and Market would be nice.
Of course this is Philly - where a bank tower was allowed to stand empty for over 10 years while the insurer and landowner squabbled over reconstruction. Even in New York people don't quite quite as moronic.
"PATCO has taken a lot of heat for the reduction of the express and short-line service over the years (I think maybe 3 expresses run in the AM and 1 in the PM) but it has always touted this as better service for those who use the closer-in stops (and were bypassed by the express trains). The bridge and Locust St subway are the big capacity constraints here - only so many trains can run, and PATCO has elected to run many more all-stops than in years gone by. Admittedly the expresses only saved a minute or two along the length of the route anyway. "
Recall, however, that express trains, in this context, do more than save time. They redistribute load, helping both passengers travelling the longer distances and ones travelling to near stations find trains where they are more likely to be able to sit down and not be as crowded.
The LIRR's Port Washington service is an example of this. The Bayside and Great Neck expresses accept passengers who will not be getting off before those stops, respectively, and that takes those people off the local trains, freeing up seats for other passengers. Similarly, a "short run" to Great Neck keeps long distance passengers off and saves seats for the shorter-distance passengers.
If the system works as it should, and trains do not have to sit in front of red signals waiting an eternity to cross the East River tubes, the express train offers its passengers the bonus of a faster trip. Skipping five to seven stops saves some time if the train can run at speed.
PATCO don't have to charge a lower fare doing the off peak hours. PATCO may find it to just keep it better at chargeing the same rate at all times if they make more money that way
I agree with you. SEPTA, unfortunately, is resisting the idea.
As I told you before, that will never happen. PATCO simply dosen't have enough $ to afford an effective fare decrease. Besides, the DRPA also controls the bridges. If too many people ride unlimited on PATCO it would cut down on per-crossing bridge tolls. Unlimited Ride passes would put a serious crimp in the DRPA's cash flow.
Here's the article from Thursday's Inquirer.
While speculating on upcoming B-Division assignment changes, you might find this information helpful.
Since the R-143s began service on L in February (ENY):
--40 Slant R-40s ENY to Coney Island.
--16 R-68s Coney Island to Concourse.
--30 Phase II R-32s Coney Island to Jamaica.
--10 (20?) R-40M ENY to Coney Island.
There may be a second set of R-40Ms now at Coney Island. Has anyone seen cars higher than 4462/4463 on the N? What are the lowest-numbered R-40Ms visible on the J/Z, L and M?
Also, approximately 2 trains of Phase I R-32s should be bumped from Jamaica to Pitkin at some point for the A/C.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
As a T/O on the J, I can tell you in the past week I have not seen 4464/65, 4468/69 but have sighted 4466/67 and 4470 to 4473. None can be transfered this weekend since the WillyB is off limits to J trains. I am on vacation from the TA for the upcoming week, my next day of labor will be Labor Day.
Thanks for the feedback!
Watch them very carefully in coming weeks, as they gradually do a disappearing act.
I'll be on vacation myself during the B-Division schedule change. It will be interesting to see where they are when I return.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Soon enough look for them to show up on the N line or the Q. Recently, well about 2 weeks ago while on my way to Bay Parkway for my M job, I rode down to 36th Street on an N train of R-40Ms. I posted the numbers of the consist, but I'll post 'em again just in case you (Mr Maspeth) didn't get them. Here is the consist I rode:
4453/52, 4462/63, 4459/58, 4450/51, 4454/55
I'll be happy as long as my favorites, the R-32s, stay around!! :-)
I overheard a C/R on A payphone at 71Ave-Cont. Ave. He was tell some one that he saw a new set of R40m's on the N line that day. He said he got photo of them and was giving the person the number of cars. I had to leave from my trip so I did not hear the numbers.
If this C/R is on the board can you give us more infomation. Thanks
Robert
Aren't you sick of the confusion arising between Broadway/Brooklyn and the REAL Broadway? It's even worse because there are two separate lines on each of them. That's why I propose a name change.
Not to mention Broadway/Queens.
Staten Island and Bronx as well!
That's right!
Of course, in the Bronx, it's the same road, so it doesn't really count.
In fact, what is the northern extremity of Broadway / North Broadway / South Broadway? It seems to go on forever!
Going back to colonial times, it was Albany.
If you count Route 9 as the extended Broadway, it ends in Canada!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Broadway in the Bronx is part of the REAL BROADWAY!!!!!! It is the same road. Actually the Broadway bridge is entirely in Manhattan and part Broadway north of the Harlem River Ship Canal is still in Manhattan (I don't know if it in New York County though.
It is -- New York County and Manhattan are coterminous. The 1 strip map correctly identifies the borough line as north, not south, of the 225th Street station.
I agree, the one in Manhattan should be renamed Albany Post Road.
I thought it was also called Bloomingdale Road as well.
yeah....as a matter of fact,Broadway does run all the way up here as Route 9...hummmm,and futher still,up to Canada..
You want confusion, come down to Baltimore - out in Baltimore County, we have three Walker Avenues, none of which are connected to each other. Two of the also have numbering series not in the standard grid system. Drove the county 911 system nuts at the beginning.
At one point the Baltimore streetcar system had Walker Avenue as a terminal - not, however on the same line, which would have saved signs. The Pikesville Walker Avenue was on the 5 line and the Arbutis Walker Avenue was on either the 9 or the 3, depending on the era.
Anyone, no "Boulevard" please. Too Queens-ish, where every rinky-dink street became a Boulevard.
I mean, you can put perfume on a ... well ... a ... sorry about that.
Clarification: Every rinky-dink AVENUE became a boulevard. Streets became Avenues or got numbers.
Why talk about Queens when Broadway/Brooklyn was mentioned in the first place?
In Bismarck we have Boulevard Avenue
: ) does that thelp?
Elias
There is a Street Road in Bucks County, PA...just outside Philly.
Also there is Turnpike Lane in the London area.
Ocean Court and Parkway Court off Ocean Parkway in Gravesend.
Used to use it regularlly to get to Liberty Bell Raceway!
--Mark
--Mark
Regards,
Jimmy
New Haven's got one too.
New Haven's got one too.
Ella T. Grasso Boulevard?
Ah, I believe what used to be just "Boulevard" was renamed for Grasso some years back.
In any event, Brooklyn's Broadway has been known as that for over a century now, and I can't think of too many people who are sick of it. Why change now?
How about Rusting Elevated Boulevard?
How about Rusting Elevated Boulevard?
We're getting closer to the nub of it :)
More possibilities--J Train Alley, Ironbound Avenue, Girder Lane, Rumble Avenue, Union Elevated Avenue.
Not to mention the Broadway LIRR station which ISN'T on Broadway
www.forgotten-ny.com
Queens: Western Boulevard
Staten Island: Markham Avenue
But more coinfusing is all the numbered streets, roads, plazas, avenues,...
Williamsburg Streets East & West are insulted.
Isn't the bridge honor enough?
Are you thinking of the right bridge?
Regards,
Jimmy
Brooklyn Blvd might make sense, but it doesn't serve Brooklyn the way Queens Blvd serves Queens. A better Brooklyn Blvd would be Fulton or Atlantic Avenue, or Flatbush Avenue. Largely because a Brooklyn Blvd that doesn't run to Downtown Brooklyn would be lame.
There already is a Brooklyn Avenue, there is no Williamsburg Avenue.
If you had your way, would the name change to "Bushwick Boulevard" east of ... Lorimer Street ? Flushing Avenue ? There already is a Bushwick Avenue.
Make them a one-way pair, Bushwick Avenue West & Bushwick Avenue East :)
You mean Ms. "Underground Railroad" has an overground (elevated) railroad on a street that's named after her? How ironic.
Flatbush Avenue only runs briefly through Flatbush, it also serves other neighborhoods, and it neither starts nor ends in Flatbush, should it be renamed Downtown Brooklyn to Barren Island Avenue?
What about Bedford Avenue? Flushing Avenue (especially that one)?White Plains Road (that one too)? Are those also wrong?
And if you think Staten Island's Broadway is a "major NYC thoroughfare," get help.
That's the whole thing in purple.
Thanks, Pigs!
Every town in the Boston area seems to have a Washington St, a Beacon St and a Boylston St.
Aside from a couple of small interruptions from railroad grade elimination projects, it still does. It changes its name to Broadway at the state line and ends in downtown Pawtucket.
There is also a Washington St. in Dorchester, which is now part of Boston.
That's the same Washington Street; the other two are in Brighton and Hyde Park.
I was down in Coney a week ago Monday around noonish with wife and kids. What a surprise that was! A blazing hot summer day but the beach nearly empty, some of the rides just barely opening. The only thing crowded was the Aquarium, but I suppose that was because of a lot of day camp groups enjoying a safe pay-one-price attraction.
At least the kids and I did the Wonder Wheel and the rotating tower thingy. Did I ever kick myself for not having my camera! What great aerial shots I could've gotten of Stillwell and W8!
But what I really wanted to ask about was whether anyone has seen the B&B Carousell operating this year. It was closed up tight when I was there.
Then, to add insult to injury I took my older daughter and friend to Botanic Gardens on Wednesday last and we crossed over to the see the zoo. The carousel there was closed too! What is this, a conspiracy?
The gentlemen who operated B&B passed away last year. I'm not sure if they ever reopened.
BMT Jeff was very found of the B&B Caruosel as I remember and was really hurt when he heard the owner had died. However, I recall that it was still being operated by the same team of guys who worked there for many years (I believe they were a father-and-son team).
The B&B Carousell has been operating sporadically this season. From what I gather the owner (James McCollough) of the B&B Carousell is still ironing out the last details concerning Mike Saltzstein's (co-owner of the B&B Carousell) estate. This has taken quite a bit of his time and has probably forced him to oeprate the carousel on a limited basis. It probably would be best to telephone the Coney Island chamber of commerce concerning the B&B Carousell and its operation. One they have completed the matters concerning Mike Saltzstein's estate, the B&B Carousell should hopefully be back to full operation, but I don't think that will be until next season. There is a grassroots movement to try and obtain landmark status for the B&B Carousell which will help to preserve it at its present location.
#3 West End Jeff
I was down in Coney a week ago Monday around noonish with wife and kids. What a surprise that was! A blazing hot summer day but the beach nearly empty, some of the rides just barely opening. The only thing crowded was the Aquarium, but I suppose that was because of a lot of day camp groups enjoying a safe pay-one-price attraction.
How true! My company's summer picnic was held at the Aquarium last Friday. I took the W "express" to Stillwell (what a letdown - we may have gotten up to 10 mph briefly) and then walked along the Boardwalk to the Aquarium. While the weather wasn't the greatest, it being somewhat overcast and only in the mid-70's, Coney Island should have been fairly crowded considering it's getting close to the end of summer. Instead, it was looking a wee bit like another Asbury Park in the making :( All that talk about C.I.'s revival in the wake of the new ballpark is just so much hot air. Some serious redevelopment is needed, hopefully the Stillwell reconstruction may help in that regard.
At the least the boardwalk is well maintained and still made of wood, not concrete.
I was amazed by the height of the sand--almost up to the level of the boardwalk. Must have cost the City a pretty penny. You didn't even really need to use any steps down. In my memory there were places where the sand was so washed out that thebottom of the steps from the boardwalk were hanging in midair!
I was also pleased to see NYPD youth officers at various locations, including at the log flume ride my daughters rode. When I was a kid the cops seemed to be more there to keep you in line than protect you, though the ones I knew were friendly and helpful--just weren't enough of them. You needed to use your street smarts to know which trouble to get into and which to avoid like the plague.
It's been my experience that weekdays -- especially daytime -- are pretty slow periods for Coney Island even when the weather is nice. Come back late on a Friday or Saturday evening, and the place will be hopping.
As for the B&B Carousell... I assume that's the carousell located in its own little building across Surf Avenue from the rest of the park (nearest the Culver Line / Brighton Line el)? It was open in mid-June of this year back when heypaul and I were wandering around, but that was a Saturday evening when we saw it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Paul, I had no idea you were 'stalking about' Brooklyn last week. Shoulda given a fellow-BMTer a call while you were around...I'll have to chastise you for your misdeeds ;-)
I was with the wife and kids, it was impromptu and quick. Almost nothing was open (in mid summer no less) so we turned around with hardly a look at the B of MT. :(
But at least the driving was good!
For an amusement park, maybe I'll get the kids to Cape May next year, which is next to Wildwood. Wildwood is at least as good as the Coney I remember from the '50s, and about 3x as big!
Ever try Knoebels in Pennsylvania?
Don't know Knoebels, where is it?
Between Catawissa and Elysburg on route 487, about 14 miles southwest of Bloomsburg.
Here's their website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>>At least the kids and I did the Wonder Wheel and the rotating tower thingy. Did I ever kick
myself for not having my camera! What great aerial shots I could've gotten of Stillwell and
W8! <<<<
Fear not, shots from the Wonder Wheel will soon be featured on the End of Stillwell Terminal page in...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[...] the End of Stillwell Terminal page [...]
Now there's a vivid image. Soon to be followed by the Resurrection of Stillwell Terminal page, I hope.
And here it is
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/nostalgia2/stillwell.html
Talk about instant gratification! :) :) :)
What a great page!!!!
man jack is at it again ! first you see this A-C-E subway terminal..
....nyc .....right?? THEN you see the los angeles red line ....!!..?
..looks like the HOLLYWOOD / VINE terminal !! whaaaaaaaaaatttt???...!
Now...how did this GIANT LEAP happen ?? either the location was la or
nyc !!...?? .........lol !!
once i saw a ad inside a R-62 with a los angles red line subway pic
ad in nyc ?? ..........whats goin'..on here folks ???
.........( oh well ) ..........just for laughs ..........lol !!!
Wow! Out of all of ads I've ever heard/seen, this is the most interesting!
the fast food chain is mostly in the western us...
u know i never checked out thier website .......oh well ......!
I was watching this movie called "Epicenter" on UPN Friday night...takes place in San Francisco...there's one clip that shows an NYCT Redbird, looked like anything from the R21 to the R30, don't know, can't tell...rolling around in the subway tunnel (in San Francisco, mind you) while the earthquake is occurring...then, after a while, the interior and exterior of a Los Angeles MTA Red Line car in the next clip! A NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT REDBIRD IN SAN FRANCISCO? A LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY CAR IN THE BAY AREA???? Is it just me, or is poor filmmaking on the part of whoever produced this movie??? ROFLMAO
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"What a funny movie!"
Maybe they figured all subway cars look alike and no one would notice.
>>> A NEW YORK CITY TRANSIT REDBIRD IN SAN FRANCISCO? A LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY CAR IN THE BAY AREA???? Is it just me, or is poor filmmaking on the part of whoever produced this movie??? <<<
Ever hear of LOW BUDGET? The use of stock footage, or shooting close to home are familiar symptoms. After all these are just props and backdrops for the emotions displayed by the actors. If that was done well, it might be good filmmaking on a shoestring budget.
Tom
that is true ...this is thier website
http://www.jacksguest.com/dev_jacksguest/index.shtml
i guess we have been stuck with this CLOWN for many years out
here in the western states !!
i dont know why the ace nyc station was shown first if the
subway commercial was for the western region only..
i never saw a jack in the box fast food outfit in nyc ....!!!
http://www.jacksguest.com/dev_jacksguest/index.shtml
oh well
Another cut-and-paste subway scene is in the movie "Stigmata." We first see the interior of an R32, destination South Ferry, the outside is of a Redbird, and we get a railfan view of an LA Red Line tunnel. Plus, this subway was supposed to be in PITTSBURGH.
If possible, please identify the trains where I ask for identification. It would be greatly appreciated. I have put these requests in red so that they are easier to see. I have tried to work off the photos on the site here although the real classifications are rarely used.
Left home on 8/14, arrived in London on 8/15 in the afternoon and went to sleep right away. No Tube riding on that day. The next day's travels were mainly done by foot although I was able to return to the apartment by way of my first Tube ride. I got on at Picadilly Circus and went to South Kensington on car number 213 (All Picadilly line trains seem to be the same type of stock. What is it and if there are other types, what are they? Only thing I am seeing on the pages here is 1973 stock.). I was already aware of the lack of a railfan window but what got me on this trip was the fact the train was so incredibly small. Not very good for someone much bigger than I am and the plane across the ocean wasn't great either. Also, my pictures weren't the greatest that night (including one where someone walked right in front of the camera at South Kensington as a train was leaving so I got a picture of his back as opposed to the train. Needless to say, I deleted the picture right away). Not a problem though, I had plenty of rides before the trip was over and my opinion changed somewhat.
The next day (8-17), we went to Greenwich. City Crusies has a ticket that allows you to take the boat one way and the DLR back to the city. We took District Line train 7005 (again, all the trains on the District Line were the same except for those on the Edgeware Road branch, are these D stock?) to Westminster. Headed to the pier and waited for the next boat. The boat was a wonderful ride and we got commentary on the sites we passed. Presumebly the green luxury apartment buildings on the river opposite the Design Museum are susposed to look like marching French soldiers. Quite interesting architecture along the whole river...
Greenwich is a very nice place. I got some pictures of buses running through there, although none of the private companies in their own livery. Where exactly is the Cutty Sark station? I was never able to figure this out. I wanted to walk through the tunnel under the Themes anyway, so I did that and got on the DLR at the Island Gardens station. I took vehicle number 46 (I know what type of train this is, read more further down, thanks to anyone who was ready to identify this train) to Bank. The DLR was my favorite train in London. I especially liked the elevated parts. The train chief was opening and closing the doors but the actual movement of the train was in automatic when I rode. He was very nice and we chatted along the way. He even stood so that I could have a seat (right behind the controls, too, almost like a cab ride). At Bank, we climbed up all the escalators to the District and Circle Line platforms (really at Monument but OK) where we took District Line Train 7050 to Sloane Square. We had bought Carnets (we saved about 15 pounds on fares this way) although we had not found the validator at Monument. So, when we got to Sloane Square and I was photographing, the rest of the group went upstairs and realized they had no tickets. The ticket inspector tore up 3 of our carnets but finally gave us some sympathy when we told her we had no children tickets with us.
The next day (18th of August for those of you keeping track) I got my only ride on a double decker bus. It was on the number 19 route and I did ride up on top. My only complaint would be the fact we really had no idea where we were going and had to ask the guard to let us off at the British Museum (which we almost missed, I asked him right in time). The stops in London are quite far apart which did surprise me. Also, the headroom was non existant on the top deck of the bus.
Our next destination was Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park, so after going through Russell Square, we got on the Picadilly Line (no car number this time) to Holburn and then took the Central Line (no car number recorded, sorry, all trains appeared to be the same again) to Marble Arch. The elevators at Russell Square are quite crowded. I will comment more on elevator only enterances later. Walked through Hyde Park to the apartment, so that was all the transit for that day.
The next day we went to the Tower of London. It is quite nice being able to buy the tickets at the Tube before going. Took District 7539 to Tower Hill. Spent the whole day at the Tower, had dinner across the river (I walked across the bridge, quite a nice view). It was decided to go back to Tower Hill after dinner instead of Bermondesy on the Jubilee. There were presumebly signal problems at Mansion House but a Circle Line train turned up right away (5508 was the car) and was hardly even delayed. The automated announcements on the Circle, H&C, and District Line (Edgeware to Wimbeldon) are quite plain in my opinion.
The next day was the one year anniversary of the longest subway trip I had ever made, 10 hours in NYC. I didn't even come close but I had a little railfanning done that day. It was the first really cloudy day, so naturally, we planned to go the London Eye (Murphy's Law, it turned out to be the only cloudy day). We took 7103 on the District to get there. In the time between when we got our tickets and actually got to ride the ferris wheel, I did get to do some railfanning. I started by walking over to Waterloo to catch the Waterloo and City Line. Someone will have to explain to me what I did wrong here. The sign said enter here for Jubilee, Bakerloo, Northern, and Waterloo and City, so after buying a single journey zone 1 ticket (I had no carnets with me) I entered the station and followed the signs to the W&C. Then, it said W&C and pointed me out of the fare control. The fare collector never exactly explained what I had done wrong so that I was on the wrong side of the faregate but I eventually got him to let me out (told him I needed to go to Bank, I knew where I really needed to wind up, and got him to assure me I could reenter the system on the same ticket at Bank, he was quite surprised to hear "I was just exploring") and onto the W&C where no fare seemed to be collected. I just missed a train and had to wait 5 minutes for the next one. 65507 was the lead car. Quite a nice ride (for the short duration that it was) although a little slow at times and I am not talking about crossing over into Bank. How do they get the trains off the W&C if they ever have to be moved? Also, why is it on older maps, the line appears as a British Rail line?
I was able to continue onwards at Bank, where Northern Line car 51643 (1995 stock, right?) got me over to London Bridge. How come the interior displays on the Northern Line were able to show the next stop as well as the destination but on the Picadilly, all they said was This train is for COCKFOSTERS? Next was the Jubilee Line, which I took to Westminster. I figured it would be easier to get off at Westminster, make the ticket think I took a direct trip, and walk over the bridge to the line for the Eye as oppossed to getting out at Waterloo and trying to convince the ticket collectors what I had been up to. I rode 69042 on the Jubilee Line (1996 stock it appears). The stations I was in were rather nice although one can't really take pictures through the platform edge doors. Also, those stations are mighty deep, are they the deepest on the system?
I got to the Eye on time and despite the clouds, it was a very nice ride. Afterwards, we took a cab to the Globe Theatre (there didn't appear to be a direct Tube). Afterwards, I wanted to go change before I went to see My Fair Lady in the West End so I went to Mansion House (crossed the Millenium Bridge, nice although the slippery surface from the earlier rain affected my speed) and took District 17069 to Sloane. Got a cab to the theatre (against my liking but I wasn't traveling alone) but ended up taking Picadilly Line train 167 back to South Kensington after the show from Leichster Square. There was a Times Square station sign in one of the windows in the mezzanine. Also, not a single machine sold children's tickets so we had to wait on line at the office. Are there not any kids at that station?
The next day was the real day for railfanning. Took the Picadilly Line to Covent Garden from South Kensington. The elevators there were quite a mess (although I wanted to use Covent Garden since I had used Leichster Square the night before). I think they should actually have signs that are more visible telling you which elevator is the next one. Also, get rid of the lighting up thing that says STAND CLEAR OF THE DOORS and replace it with an LED that would actually display relevant messages. When the doors are opening, it would say PLEASE MOVE ALL THE WAY INTO THE LIFT, then say MIND THE CLOSING DOORS, and finally, when at the top, say PLEASE EXIT HERE-HAVE TICKETS READY. I am also sure that those elevators there (and at Russell Square and other stations like that) must be a pickpocket's haven.
The transit museum was wonderful. I wish NY got one like that. Plenty of old stuff, new stuff, and stuff for non-railfans to understand. I didn't exactly like the sim that much (wasn't too realistic IMO) but once I laerned the line, I was pretty good at it. It was rather funny watching other people trying to move the train and being told "your brakes are still on", trying to understand what deadman's did, not realizing there was a separate brake handle, and that the dead man's was actually what made the train go (the term power handle meant nothing, mainly since there were no signs refering to it). I spent quite some time in the gift shop, where I bought another shirt with a map on it (someone had already brought me one back as a gift from their trip), a book about the DLR (I can identify the DLR train this way), a track map of the LU and DLR, a poster with an underground map, and I think that was it, although there could have been more. I spent about 30 pounds and it was quite worth it. I have read most of the book and enjoyed it so far.
Afterwards, it was already 5:30 (we got up and went to bed late daily). I broke off from the group to do some railfanning of my own. Headed to Covent Garden where I used the stairs (as did quite a few other people). Got on train 867 on the Picadilly and went to King's Cross, where I took Hammersmith and City line train 5710 to Farringdon (same as the cars on the Circle line, right?). I was able to take pictures of both LUL trains and the Themeslink. After some time (it was rush hour, so it didn't take long to get many pictures), I got on an "Amersham Fast Service". The announcements were rather poor so I wasn't exactly sure where I would be going except I had to stay out of zone 6. From what I gathered, the train started at Aldgate, then made all stops to Baker Street, then Finchely Road, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Moor Park, and then all stops to Amersham. I bought a one way ticket to zone 5 for my railfanning on this trip. How many of these "fast services" do they have a day and where do they go? Also, I read about some "semi-fast" services. Where do these stop? The ride out to Harrow-on-the-Hill was quite fast. At one point we were cruising at the same speed as a commuter train on the track next to us. I was rather surprised when at Harrow-on-the-Hill, we stopped on the British Rail platform. Got off, took a picture of some train heading to Marlebone with a yellow front (I can post the picture eventually) before going over to the outbound platform. Surprisingly, there were no pay phones that accepted coins, so I took the next train towards Uxbridge to West Harrow, where I pleaded my case to the ticket collector, who let me out and then back in once he saw my valid ticket (no faregates there). Took the next train after my call to Rayners Lane. Here are the rundown of the Met line trains I took. These are all A stock, aren't they?
5098 Farringdon to Harrow on the Hill (with some East London line stickers, I assume the lines share some cars)
5076 Harrow on the Hill to West Harrow
5199 West Harrow to Rayners Lane (missing the cab door peephole but the view still was bad)
Rayners Lane was great, but I had to wait before I got a good picture with the short tube stock with the taller subsurface stock. My first picture was a little blurry. A delay due to unauthorized persons on the track allowed me to get a picture of a Uxbridge bound Met next to a Cockfosters bound Picadilly in the station and then let me get on the Picadilly's last car, 157 (missing its cab door peephole, too). I took that to Hammersmith. Changed to the H&C which I took to Shepard's Bush. By now it was rather dark so the pictures here were not the best. Decided to go to Edgeware Road and catch the District Line (5517 was the car used for that trip) to Notting Hill Gate. The train to Notting Hill Gate was an unidentified District Line car (I didn't get the number). Notting Hill Gate is really nice. I decided to then take the District Line over the Themes so I took 5501 to East Putney. Probably not the best use of my time unless I had actually gone all the way to Wimbeldon, since it was dark and there wasn't much to see. Crossed under to the other side and got 7127 from East Putney back to Sloane Square. It was pretty good for 4 hours worth of riding.
The next day, the 22nd of August now, started with a ride on 8106 on the District to Westmister to go to the Abbey. Afterwards, I wanted to exchange my shirt at the transport museum for a larger size so I took 17016 (same train as before, different car) to Embankment where I got 51587 to Leichster Square. Walked to another store where we had to do an errand, then got on the Picadilly Line. I did some railfanning, the person I was with went back to where we were staying. Took the Picadilly Line (415) to King's Cross where I got Victoria 3113 (1967 stock with ATO, right?) to Oxford Circus and then the Bakerloo Line car 3261 to Embankment. The lighting globes near the end doors were sort of out of place in my opinion. Waited for some pictures at Embankment although service was delayed due to a person under a train at Earl's Court. Eventually got my pictures and got District 7026 to Sloane Square.
The next day, my last day for touring in London, took me to Bath. I took District train 8094 to Earl's Court where I changed for 5540 to Edgeware Road. We had just missed a Circle Line train at Sloane but then we passed an Edgeware Road bound train at Triangle Junction, so my navigation decision may have not been the best. Took the 1215 to Bath which was an OK ride. I thought the train was comfortable but not the best. On the way back, we took the 2041 from Bath Spa but it was delayed by about half an hour. Got back to Paddington pretty late although I got my last tube ride in on the Circle Line car 6560. This car has its car numbers in a large, red font. Any ideas as to why?
Finally, which Tube Line is it that crosses the A4 on the way to Heathrow? I think it is the Picadilly but I am not sure.
Having spent 8 days in London and the area surrounding the city, I would have to say the Tube is a rather fun system. I was able to ride on all the lines except East London. There are lots of similarities to New York's subway except there is no railfan window, which really cuts down on the fun. The stations are deeper in London and far more interesting than those in NYC, so if it weren't for the railfan window, London would probably be higher on my list. The DLR does boost its position a little bit. All in all, the London subway was very nice indeed. So, here are my ratings for my favorite subways:
1. Washington, DC
2. Atlanta
3. Chicago
4. New York City
5. London
6. Montreal
7. Boston
(tie 7) Philadelphia
Thanks in advance to everyone who is able to help me with the car identification. I have some others of the national railways I will post pictures for. Thanks to the SubTalkers who also gave me advice on what parts of the Underground to see. Hope to come back again some time in the future.
Glad you had a good time. You could have stopped off in my home town of Swindon :) but it sounds like you had a real busy schedule. I will try and come back to you later with the car schedule, but one of my UK friends or Mr Slant may also be help. No line uses more than one type of stock.
Picadlly crosses the A4 and M4 near Osterley.
Simon
Swindon UK
In direct answer to your posted questions:
Piccadilly 1973 stock has all been refurbished,the 6 car units have new interiors and have been painted up,they are the same as shown on this site but just in corporate colours.
--
Edware Road-Wimbledon District Line uses C69/77 stock and not D stock
--
DLR 46 is a B1992 unit of which 47 units (45 thru 91)exist.
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Central Line (AUTOMATIC IN OPERATION) stock is 8 car 1992 vintage
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66507 is a waterloo/city line 1992 vintage,one of 10 2 car sets originally operated by British Rail who sold the line for £1 to LUL!
--
51643 is a 1995 Northern Line tube stock
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96042 is a 1996 Jubilee line tube stock
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5710 is a C77 Stock
--
This may have been a 165 or 168 type diesel multiple unit
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5098/5076/5199 all A60 stock
--
Victoria 3113 is an 8 car 1967 unit
--
circle line C69 6560 (in addition to most C stock) has numbers on the front "dome" so that control CCTV cameras can pick up the car numbers
..
Rob
Waterloo and City line had a lift to the surface but the Eurostar station was built on this! so any stock needing heavy repair is craned out in the side street near Lower Marsh at the side of Waterloo.Waterloo does have a depot where most work is done,the trains reversing in it when they return south to North.
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Child tickets, the scam to get through the UTS gates is to buy a cheap child ticket for the next station(60p instead of £1.60 adult) then go as far as you like.That is why child tickets can only be purchased from a clerk.
Under 5s go free 5+ to 15 is child rate BUT if you are 14 or 15 you MUST have a photocard showing DOB to buy a child rate ticket.
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mind the gap!
Rob
Hammersmith and City line train 5710 to Farringdon (same as the cars on the Circle line, right?)
Absolutely right - indeed, at odd times of day some Circle Line trains turn into H&C trains - some get to Aldgate on the Inner Rail and start announcing they're for Hammersmith, a few on the Inner Rail go straight on at Minories Junction to Whitechapel, those on the Outer Rail get to Edgware Road and announce they're for Whitechapel. Other trains on both lines will turn into short workings on the Metropolitan Line to Neasden (where there's a large depot).
How many of these "fast services" do they have a day and where do they go?
The Metropolitan Line is more complicated than it is on the map. The following services run:
Aldgate - Uxbridge (Stopping)
Baker St - Uxbridge (Stopping)
Aldgate - Watford (Stopping)
Baker St - Watford (Stopping)
Aldgate - Amersham (Semi-Fast)
Baker St - Amersham (Semi-Fast)
Aldgate - Uxbridge (Semi-Fast), peak hours only, peak direction only
Aldgate - Watford (Semi-Fast)
Aldgate - Amersham (Fast)
Aldgate - Chesham (Fast), peak hours only, both directions
Chalfont & Latimer - Chesham (Shuttle)
Stopping trains call at every stop (to state the obvious); Semi-Fast trains stop all stops to Finchley Road, then Harrow-on-the-Hill, then all stops; Fast trains stop all stops to Finchley Road, then Harrow-on-the-Hill, then Moor Park, then all stops. If you look in your track book, you'll see it's impossible to run from the Fast Lines at Moor Park to the Watford Branch, hence all Watford trains are Semi-Fast or stopping. (Users of Moor Park heading towards Amersham need a timetable to know which platform their train will arrive on because of this crazy track layout - LU has a timetable of sorts to help with this: http://www.thetube.com/content/firstandlast/Metropolitan/rick.pdf - this file also shows all through trains from London (including some Chiltern Railway trains) to Amersham and Chesham, but not the Watford Branch).
(Fast and Semi-Fast trains used to call at Wembley Park on days when there was an event at Wembley Stadium. Wembley is sitting there overgrown, with no sign of a replacement.)
There are a couple of really odd workings you'll see if you ride very early in the morning or late at night:
- Stopping trains calling at West Hampstead, Kilburn, Willesden Green, Dollis Hill and Neasden.
- Routings around the Croxley - Rickmansworth curve.
The ride out to Harrow-on-the-Hill was quite fast. At one point we were cruising at the same speed as a commuter train on the track next to us.
They did go even faster until B@$t@rd LU management put out blokes with RADAR guns to catch Met drivers speeding. The section into Marylebone on the Chiltern Railway is always quite leisurely from Harrow onwards, even on the Clubmans (Clubmen?) from Birmingham Snow Hill and Stourbridge Junction. (YAY!!! Once the line's upgraded between Harrow and High Wycombe, there should be 100mph trains!!!)
I was rather surprised when at Harrow-on-the-Hill, we stopped on the British Rail platform.
Not too unusual in London. Using the BR Platform happens at all stations "North" of Queens Park on the Bakerloo Line (the Line actually heads in more of a Westerly direction and some stations are geographically South of Queens Park), "West" (South) of Gunnersbury on the District, and at Harrow-on-the Hill, Rickmansworth, Chorleywood, Chalfont & Latimer and Amersham on the Met (okay, the Met serves other stations on the Fast Line on that section, but Chiltern doesn't).
took a picture of some train heading to Marlebone with a yellow front
At Harrow, the only route that can be is Aylesbury to Marylebone via Amersham, and the train will probably be a Class 165 (there are only three trains daily with Class 168 Clubman rolling stock on that route: 1208, 1338 and 1538 ex Aylesbury). Given that you took some time at Farringdon, you'll probably have got either the 1754 or 1826 Fast Amersham, arriving at Harrow at 1824 or 1855 respectively. This would mean the Chiltern Train was one of the following:
Aylesbury (1717), Stoke Mandeville, Wendover, Great Missenden, Amersham, Chalfont & Latimer, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth, Harrow (1801), Marylebone (1816).
Aylesbury (1749), Stoke Mandeville, Wendover, Great Missenden, Amersham, Chalfont & Latimer, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth, Harrow (1831), Marylebone (1846).
These are all A stock, aren't they?
5098 Farringdon to Harrow on the Hill (with some East London line stickers, I assume the lines share some cars)
100% A Stock, the best stock on the tube (Met bias) - still going strong after 42 years! The cars are shared between the Metropolitan Line and the East London Line, so it's not surprising to see cars saying the wrong thing on them. Most Met Trains are 8 Cars long (with the exception of the Chesham Shuttle which is 4 Cars long due to not many people riding it) - ELL only uses 4 Car trains because of short platforms at all stations except New Cross Gate and Whitechapel. In fact, the stock isn't all these two lines share - on the map I have on my desk (which I got in July 1988), the Metropolitan Line includes both the H&C and the East London Lines - the H&C is shown as indistinct from the main line, whilst the "East London Section" is shown with a white stripe down the centre of the Met Purple with the words "East London Section" below Metropolitan on the legend.
What the Met could really do with is a train numbering system. Although it's better now the H&C is a separate Line, saying somewhere's "on the Met" is about as much use as saying somewhere's "on the BMT". Anyway, that's my dream... plus I'd add a couple of stations and connecting tracks...
The DLR does boost its position a little bit.
The DLR is brilliant! Once ATO becomes ingrained in the tube lines, we should finally see an end to the rear door of a cab. The subsurface lines will never be ATO because of sharing tracks with main line railways, but it would be nice to have a perspex rear of the cab instead of that solid wall.
Looks like I really need to get across the pond to do some real railfanning!!!
The train I took a picture of at Harrow was the 1901 to Marlebone.
I had an old map from the 80s with the H&C on the Met and the East London was purple with the white stripe down the middle. This was part of a tourist map issued by LT.
Man, you're lucky you found a track map of the Underground. What is the name of it? I went to the museum gift shop, and all I could find were British Rail track maps. My consolation prize was a pair of boxer shorts with the Underground map printed on it. They turned out be to be too short and kept giving me wedgies.
The LT museum sells two different track maps. One is a book of maps of Southeast England railroads, one of a series. Has a green cover if I recall. Published by Quail Map Co of England. You can probably order it from Motorbooks (www.motorbooks.co.uk). The maps in these books are schematic style and not quite to scale-- they're done line by line end to end. The other is a folded map, approx 5x8" folded, and shows the entire Underground on one large page, approximately to scale and geographically correct.
It just says London Transport Railway Track Map and has a underground roundell and DLR logo on the front. The map was copyrighted by Quail Map Company in 2002.
Well they only cost £1.75 (approx $1.20), so I wouldn't be surprised if they were out of stock.
It's available at:
http://www.transportdiversions.com/publicationshow.asp?pubid=3131
Here are the details:
[GB] LONDON TRANSPORT RAILWAY TRACK MAP - (6th edition February 2002)
A2, 59 x 42cm. Not to scale. A four-colour sheet showing basic detail. (More detail is shown in Track Diagrams #5). ISBN: 1 898319 50 2. Flat or folded. GBP1.75
Also interesting may be:
[GB][IE][AU] RAILWAY TRACK DIAGRAMS
A4, 29 x 21cm. A series of books in black and white showing all tracks, level-crossings, tunnels, signal-boxes, distances and much else. Some minor railways are included.
- 5 ENGLAND, SOUTH & LONDON UNDERGROUND - New edition due early 2002. ISBN: 1 898319 52 9. Not yet priced.
[GB] LONDON RAILWAYS TRACK MAP IN c.1870 - (2nd, slightly amended, edition 2001)
A2, 59 x 42cm. Various scales; many areas greatly enlarged. Black & white. All track, turntables, platforms etc based on surveys made 1863-1873. Broad-gauge tracks shown. ISBN: 1 898319 53 7. GBP1.75
Last night while on my trip to Far Rockaway, I spotted a 2 car Air Train doing test runs on the Air Train ROW by Howard Beach - JFK. Looks pretty operational to me, though the train was going in the reverse direction so I couldn't see if it really was automated or if someone was operating it (I heard rumors the trains might have someone actually operating them on board). I still think it all one great, big P.O.S. !!!
OK. But it's a whole lot better than any alternative do-able POS ever offered on this board...
"OK. But it's a whole lot better than any alternative do-able POS ever offered on this board... "
I'd like to chime in with a few thoughts about the viability of AirTrain JFK... Nah. Maybe we should restrict that discussion to once every three months rather than once a week.
CG
Hello, I usually hang out in chinatown, I always try a faster way to get there from Bay Ridge. I usually take the R train to Dekalb Avenue and transfer for the Q local on weekends. But, instead, i have to stand there for about 15-20 minutes for the damn Q Train to come to Dekalb Avenue. And, usually I don't even a get seat becuase of how many stops that the Q Train makes from Coney Island to Dekalb Avenue, and I don't like that. On weekends, the W train ONLY runs from Coney Island to Pacific Street and there is always a whole group of people waiting for the either the R or N to come. And, they take the train to one stop and they get off at Dekalb Avenue. If Q Train service increases we would not have these situations ever again. This is my plan for weekend service on the Broadway Line:
N and R Trains Should have INCREASE SERVICE between either 86 Strret and Ditmars BLVD. or 95 Street and 71-Continental Aves.
Q Trains should go to 42 Street-Times Square, via Express in Manhattan. (INCREASE SERVICE)
W Trains run from Coney Island to Ditmars BLVD, ALL TIMES.
Well, as far as the W, that part as far as running all times to Astoria will be reality effective September 8th, however on weekends the reverse of what currently operates (N all times to Astoria, W only Coney Island to Pacific) will be in effect, with W all times to Astoria, N on weekends only 86th Street to Pacific.
As far as any service increases on the R, I don't know how much of that will happen because the R is a Queens Division line, and Queens Division already has enough traffic headaches, and the extra trains will only make things worse, and that means more delays in service. Besides with all the motive power shifting, there aren't enough trains to be available for that service increase.
The Q change I can agree with because a lot of people do ride the Q, and giving I have used the Q to get around on weekends, the Q can be kinda unreliable!! Then again with all the work done on weekends, what lines don't have a slight reliability problem? The Q itself has enough work going on, so maybe that's why the Q's reliability is kind of shot.
We'll see if the "geniuses" up top in the TA would consider any of this. I personally think not.
What what time of day are these 15-20 minute waits for Q trains at DeKalb Avenue experienced? Q trains are scheduled to operate every 8 minutes for most of the day on both Saturday and Sunday. As to the Q running local in Manhattan, it's scheduled to run express, but occasionally runs local due to various reconstruction projects (such as DeKalb Avenue station rehabilitation). It's also scheduled to terminate at 57th Stret -- is there a reason 42nd Street should be the terminal instead?
As explained elsewhere in this thread, W trains will replace N trains as the main Broadway/Astoria service as of September 8. When the N is running as a Sea Beach/Fourth Avenue shuttle, W trains will make all stops.
David
What's going to happen with weekday evening service to Ditmars? Currently, between the time the diamond-Q stops running and the time the W is cut back to Brooklyn, the W terminates at 57th and only the N goes to Ditmars. I see five options for how this could be handled after the N/W flip, all with problems: (1) just as now, the W terminates at 57th (but then the N will be the only line to Ditmars briefly, to be followed by the W as the only line to Ditmars all night); (2) the N terminates at 57th and the W runs through to Ditmars (but then the N and W will have to cross between 34th and 42nd); (3) both the N and W run to Ditmars (a service increase, probably unwarranted); (4) N trains run express at this time, terminating at 57th, while W's run local to Queens (confusing, and an uncommon sort of solution in the B Division); (5) the late night N/W service pattern runs, with N's staying in Brooklyn (service reduction on the express).
The W will run to Ditmars 24/7. The N will only run north of Pacific St. from 5:30 AM to 9:30 PM (approx).
That means there's a service cut in Manhattan between 9:30 and midnight (approximately). Now there's Q (express), W (express), N (local), and R (local); in a few weeks there will only be Q (express), R (local), and W (local). How busy are the Broadway BMT trains in Manhattan at that time, particularly the expresses?
W Train replaces N on Nights and Weekends only. Evenings, I think the N will be cut to 57 Street and finally to 36 Street as the W is now.
That's what I thought would happen at first, but then the N would have to switch to the express track exactly where the W switches to the local track.
(But late nights the N will terminate at Pacific, not 36th. The R, too.)
Nope, the N will run to/from Astoria whenever it ventures north of Pacific St. What time at night the N will begin shuttle-only service has not been fully defined. It may last until midnight.
Anyone know for sure?
Once again, if u ride the subway nights and weekends, you're screwed. :-(
Know that from waiting at Nevins or Atlantic Avenue :-|
Wish they would split all the trains into two 4 cars trains and space them out for more service, but the amount of craziness that would cause for workers :-|
Well… how many other places have 24 hour service
Win some, loose some
(4) N trains run express at this time, terminating at 57th, while W's run local to Queens
Was that point number intentional? Fred will like this!!!
I don't think the N will run via Bridge on 9/8/02. No info on the flyer and brochure stated anything about N run via Bridge. Fred ain't gonna like this at all since his N service operation hours will be CUT to part-time hours instead of full-time.
At least they're not calling it an (S) Train.
We dont need any more S on the map.
We already have a lot of S, C and D.
No T though.
Those are all crude words, the proper way of referring to it is F.
Today, there was a door holding out at Neck Road during the afternoon. The C/R of the train exited his cab and walked through the cars locking and unlocking as he went through both times wasting time to clear up the door problem at the end. This was right before 3. And the train behind it got held up right before DeKalb.
the Q isnt really unreliable,neither is any other line in the subway,if you have to wait that long,especially during the day then something went wrong elsewhere thats why it'll take longer than usual.but every train should run as it should,every 8mins,6mins,10mins...etc.if its longer then something happened,enough said.cant say a train is unreliable when something goes wrong and its no one's fault.but of course sometimes it could be someones fault,particularly an idiot who wants to goof around cause he has nothing better to do than be an a**hole
The subway is awful on weekends. I wanted to go to Staten Island this weekend. BUT, 7 trains were not running to Manhattan, terminating at Queensboro plaza. There I'd have to wait for an N train which would be packed with several loads of 7 passengers. N trains are running over the bridge and not stopping at Whitehall, R trains are suspended s of Canal st.
Or getting off at 74th street I could take an E to Lexington, but all downtown 6 trains are running express. yes N and R stop at 60th where I could get the downtown express but the (N)ever and (R)arely are so awfully slow.
Lately there's so much construction on weekends with closures I'd rather fiddle with the LI Bus weekend service. To put in bluntly, weekend subway riding SUCKS.
It would suck worse if that construction didn't happen. This is the price we pay for a 24/7 subway system. Don't whine so much - if they didn't do it, we'd be back like it was in the late 1970's - breakdowns, broken track, derailments, screwed up signals.
As the signs say, "Rebuilding the subway takes time." Even more so when trying to catch up with years of deferred maintenance.
So let's do this work during rush hour and see what happens. Or, since it will be disliked even more, see what happens when the el collapses or a train derails.
The N actually was good this weekend with the 7..crowds are something of NYC, deal with it or move.
Not the weekend crowds!!!
N trains were running northbound over the bridge; southbound they were making all stops in lower Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn. R trains were supposed to be terminating on 3/4 Track at Whitehall
Oh so they were running southbound. Even I got confused by the G.O.!!!
how? it clearly said MANHATTAN BOUND trains run over the Manhattan Bridge,R's terminate at Whitehall St.what part of that didnt you get?
then you should have taken the N to LEX... transfered to the downtown 4 to BOWLING GREEN...walked [yes ,walk] 1/4 mile to the ferry terminial.
Not that I'm denying the fact that Q trains may be unreliable, but why don't you just stay on the N/R through the tunnel. I believe that if a Q and an N/R left DeKalb toward Manhattan together, the Q only wins by 90 seconds to two minutes.
Not unless something is wrong on the bridge. From DeKalb to Canal, the Q is scheduled to take about 9 minutes and the R about 16 minutes.
From DeKalb to Canal, the Q is scheduled to take about 9 minutes and the R about 16 minutes.
I've never checked, but after reading this I must say I'm kinda surprised. Like Flyer, I never noticed much of a difference (then again there is the reality between schedule and actual running time).
But now let's look at this pratically... weekend headway is typically 8-10 minutes, so getting off the R to get the Q, you've got a good chance of even getting there later, if you just missed the Q. Just doesn't make sense to make this switch.
weekend headway is typically 8-10 minutes
So if you turn up randomly, your average wait will be 4-5 minutes. So average time lost by transfer = 4 or 5 minutes.
From DeKalb to Canal, the Q is scheduled to take about 9 minutes and the R about 16 minutes.
So average time gained by transfer = 7 minutes.
Average time gained - average time lost = +2 to +3 minutes
Therefore, on average, given that headway, the transfer will gain time rather than losing it.
Indeed, we can work out a critical headway - a point at which one should no longer transfer.
average time lost = average time gained
average time lost = 7 minutes
=> Headway = 14 minutes
So, unless the Q train is running every 14 minutes or less, the transfer is worthwhile (if you use your common sense and not get off onto the platform if a Q Train's just pulling out except when headways are lower than 7 minutes).
Assuming your metric is simply time of arrival.
Some people place a value on keeping a seat, or on standing on an air conditioned train rather than on a hot platform.
I must say:
Though that may be official scheduling time, like Goumba Tony, I don't think it is that drastic a difference in actuality. Yesterday, I was on a southbound W and we were running parallel to a southbound N from Prince to Canal until the W went down to the lower level. I got off the W at Canal and waited for the Q which was right behind it. When the Q got into DeKalb, the same N was pulling in. This is the way I look at it:
Going north, I believe that a bridge train and a tunnel train leaving together would typically result in the bridge train only just getting on the bridge as the tunnel train is in Court St, the bridge train just getting off the bridge when the tunnel train is leaving Rector, and the bridge train entering Canal when the tunnel train arrives at City Hall. I guess it is 2 minutes for the local train to get from there to Canal. It would be another fourty seconds or so if Cortlandt St was open.
The Hudson River is long an huge, but until 1908, the southernmost fixed crossing of the river was at Poughkeepsie.
That new crossing was the Hudson tubes.
That's right, and once the Hudson Tubes came into use, the bridge up at Ploughkeepsie was practically abandoned. NH abandoned pax service sometime in the 30's, but the freight service continued into the 50s. It's a beautiful bridge, but today it's rusting away. Some people want to do something with it, but I wish they would just leave it alone so people can enjoy the beauty of an abandoned bridge.
AEM7
What would be good would be running steam trains across it. Having said that, if the bridge is badly decayed, it'll have to be someting light-ish. A GWR 0-6-0 Pannier Tank anyone?
Howard Fein wrote:
Keep in mind that Flatbush terminal was never meant to BE a permanent terminal. Second System plans had the IRT line continuing south along Nostrand Avenue deep into Sheepshead Bay. It was supposed to emerge from tunnel to el around Avenue J due to south central Brooklyn's low water table.
This is problematic on several levels.
PSC Route 29 was mapped from its junction with the Eastern Parkway Line to Emmons Avenue, with it emerging as an el in the vicinity of Avenues J and K. However, only the currently existing portion was approved and included in Dual Contracts. It is hardly the only line that had parts adopted in the Dual Contracts that were never built, or built differently from the original proposal.
Perhaps some amount of thinking by the IRT wished for the line to go further, but if the Flatbush terminal was inadequate to the purpose, it was not because there was any hard expectation that the line was about to be extended.
The Depression kept the line from being extended any further south.
Lines and extensions referred to as the Second System were proposed quite ambitiously in 1929, including an extension down Nostrand which would have been joined by the Utica Avenue line near Sheepshead Bay. But like the rest of the Second System, it was ambitious wishful thinking. The Depression did not stop what was never started. The first hard planning for a Nostrand Avenue extension was after World War II, long after Flatbush terminal was built.
Some say residents along lower Nostrand rebelled against an el being built over it also doomed the project.
This did happen, in the '50s, but other community groups were lobbying in favor of the extension at least into the '60s, though they would have preferred a subway.
You'll notice that Nostrand is sufficiently wide from the Junction to the Bay to accomodate a two-track line. Whether it was originally constructed with this purpose in mind is unclear.
Nostrand is wide from that point for the same reason that Ocean Avenue widens at Farragut Road. In that era of low development, the trolley tracks ran down the unpaved center of the highway. Additional lanes to the outside carried auto traffic.
That's why Flatbush terminal looks like an ordinary outerborough neighborhood stop, with two tracks and side platforms. Virtually every permanent terminal has an island platform. But in 1920, Flatbush was viewed as a strictly temporary terminal
If so, it was wishful thinking and poor planning.
How did they plan to get the line under the Bay Ridge Division and the Buckeye Pipeline? Doesn't the pipeline pretty much exclude additional expansion?
How old is the Buckeye Pipeline? The original plan, mapped by the PSC in 1911, called for the line to be underground and emerge at a point between Avenues J and K, which is south of the Bay Ridge. I have no idea how they planned to handle the crossing problem.
Pipelines can be moved.
Thank you for interesting insights.
I think that (if I ran the Zoo) I'd extend the southbound track along Nostrand then using the LIRR ROW (probably below it as subway, looping around to Flatbush, and then returning to the northbound track at the existing Nostrand station. I would not add any stations, but only some turning and storage capacity.
Make it a revenue loop and let sleepy, unattentive passengers return to the Bronx, although of course equipment pulled out of service here would have to be emptied.
I have other plans for extending the service from a new Flatbush-Washington Avenue subway but that is for another post.
Elias
A Flatbush-Washington Avenue Subway proposal....pleassssse make a post about THAT ONE! Sharing ideas is what the web is all about.
:-)
Your wish.... etc etc.
I will be more than happy to share my 23rd Street / Nostrand Avenue Subway with you!
Elias
There are lots of train modellers out there. They have layouts and rolling stock and everything. Most modellers learn railroad economics really quickly, as they realize that the layout itself costs more than the vehicles, and that to build any length of a layout, the main cost is in the cost of the "land" used.
Does anyone model subways?
AEM7
Information on subway modelling is available from links on this site. From the main page, click on "Transfer Station", then "Merchandise, Models, and Software". There are a number of links to modelling, including a Model SubTalk bulletin board.
Oh my goodness... how foamy.
I do, but in N gauge. Most do it in O or G. I have been meaning to build an R30 for years, but can nevr get around to it. Really pisses me off that I have to order power chassis from only Green Max of Japan, who normally do not market in North AMerica.
I model O scale traction, eventually I plan on having a short elevated line on my layout. I do not have any O subway cars...yet. I recently finished an O scale model of B&QT Peter Witt #8111. I still have to add the interior however. I have added a link to a picture of the model before adding decals. Enjoy.
Steve Loitsch
http://www.qcarcompany.com/information/info/gallery_model_page_3/index.html
Feast Your Eyes On This!
Hey fellers----as many times as I posted here at sub talk (Joe@ NYC MODEL TRANSIT EL) some of you should have know of me ---and those who do KNOW me here at Sub Talk (Selkirk, BMT Man, Matus, etc.) havent bothered to respond to this to mention my work (SHAME on YOU guys --heh heh) - well, Aem 7, check out my NYC Model Transit System huge photo website at:
"http://community.webtv.net/nycmodeltransit/NYCModelTransitEL"
or check my link and photo spread in the New York City Model Transit Assn. website that was posted here by Fishbowl I think.
Regards - Joseph Frank
Webmaster - NYC Transit Modelers Group (Forum)
Director - NYC Model Transit System (layout exhibit)
Co-Founder - NYC Model Transit Associaiton
Here's a photo - hope the link works
Well GEEZ, Unca Joe ... we just came out and tortured you over on YOUR place. :)
Hey Kevin---
MOOOOOOoooooooo------aaaahhhhh
-----I think my people over at my place especially enjoy it when you torture me there----its good for readership and we gained 10 new members in 5 days --probably BECAUSE (heh heh) of it. (AND, they always like to see how I "come back" at you (heh heh)
Watch out - I'll post those "HONARKS PIGWAY" ALONG DA "EL" pictures here on DA BIG BILLBOARD for all to see (Mooooo)
You know my people love to hear your "Arnines" tales of long ago --especially Big Ed !!
See ya later...say HI to bing bong for me !
Regards - Unca Joe
(U No Hu from U No Where)
Here is a wooden center door High-V with Gates !!
BMT El Gate Motor # 734 (ex-Kings County Elevated Railway Co 1888 built steam trailer car) seen mid train on a BMT local leaving a local station on a Bklyn El. BELOW - is # 734's unconverted "as originally built and appeared as in 1888" sister car BMT El Gate Trailer # 197, in the same departing El train...same car as saved at Branford Shore Line Trolley Museum !!
Joe have included a number of photos from your layout with my Field Trip report submitted Dave.
It's going to be a day that I have fond memories of for a very long time !
Hi Thurston
It was a pleasure having you guys down here--I dont get hardly any NY Transit oriented visitors at my place here in Quaker-Oats-Land --too bad the heat wave was on -- must have been rough traveling around between Air/Co SEPTA rides...anyway, youse guys is welcome any time ya'all's back down 'dese here parts, ya-all hear???!!
PS: BTW, the pictures were great that that you guys took !! Thanks !!
Regards
Unca Joe
PS: SEE PHOTOS NEXT - Here is the sister car of your beloved (and mine) BMT (BRT) El Gate Motor # 1227 at Branford----my own BRT Motor #1235 in its authentic original BRT 1905 colors and configuration...as seen "On Da Brooklyn El"----with Two of its BRT cousins, Ex-Kings County El. RR Co trailer BRT # 237 and Ex-Brooklyn Union El. RR Co
BRT Center Door Motor # 804 - in more simpler times.
Last view is a 3/4 view front closeup of # 1235.
The ornate gold pinstriping is there on all cars - you guys saw it when down here- its too bad it doesnt show up well against the BRT Red --can just about see it in last photo !!
I can almost sense BMTman fogging the cab window. I'm furklempt. Shoot me, bubala!
The three of must have looked like you're typical fomers to Joe that day ;-)
The detail that he has put into his layout is unbelievable !
Yes indeedy, but mum's the word on the "coolness on a frigging stick" ... if we say it TOO loudly, his shoes will inflate. :)
BTW, regarding 1227 at Shoreline ... one of the members has the Blind Trailer Gate Car #197 in the shop for spruice up job. One of the ends required some repair so it could hold up the coupler again & some of the boards on her side are a bit rotted, but in general she's not it too bad a shape. The intention is to put her on static display.
I'm real pleased about that as she's been hidden away in a barn far too long.
I meant to put the link here:
Feast Your Eyes On This!
Mark Feinman, who posts here, has an extensive HO subway layout. I have begun the process of constructing a large N scale scene that will include a four-track subway station, but I suspect that it will be at least ten years before I complete it (it's being built as an expanded Ntrak module complete with the 6" extensions front and rear, 16' long, plus two 6' long transition modules for those locations that require them). So far I have acquired one subway train (Green Max of Japan) and I've built the first dozen buildings of over 100 that I will have on the surface. Recently I stumbled onto what was practically a steal on Preiser figures... since I figure on needing about 3000 or so, getting eight boxes of 125 for four bucks a box was a good start. Only problem is that it takes a lot of time to paint them... great project for a lengthy convalescence, but I'm not planning to get sick just to have the time to do it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For NYC Model Transit information with links to additional sites, see the
NYC Model Transit Association website .
Thanks,
Steve Olsen
NYC Model Transit Association
TO: Steve Olsen - NYCMTA
Hey Steve:
THANKS Steve, for posting our NYCMTA Link here -its just amazing how little we modelers of the NYCTA and the NYCMTA website are even known about, or thought of at Sub Talk - which I can understand, as it is basically a "subject prototype" oriented board. But YET there are modelers to some degree on here also !!
Thanks to "Fishbowl" initially here, your website 'Models Page' link got posted, but no one here at S/T who also knows my of layout and site even posted about my layout website !!!! - in as much as I post here at subtalk and am known by quite a number (as YOU are also) guys here !! (heh heh---ohhh, well------it figures !!!)
If ANYONE here wants to see my extensive NYC "El" layout via its 170 photo website, and my NYCTA Work Car models website also, click on to Steve's NYCMTA Link above to find its links --- AND to check out Steve's GREAT "ONE STOP SITE" to find anything Important, books, models available, Modelers of Els & Subways, related links for websites and manufacturers of Transit Models, new products, and much more ---and it all, when its happening in NYC Transit Modeling !!
Steve ---keep up the great work on our NYCMTA site!
Here are two more pictures from my website as I close here - for those who like this "modeling stuff" here to enjoy !!!
Regards - Joe
Joseph Frank
NYC Transit Modelers Group (Forum)
NYC Model Transit System
NYC Model Transit Association
BMT El Gate Motor # 1234 at head of BMT local train stopped at a Brooklyn El local station
BMT Blue Bird 3-car Articulated lightweight Unit # 8001 seen stopped at a Brooklyn El local station
Joe,when are you planning to get that video of your layout available ? those photos are incredible i bet that video is also a great feast for the eyes. :-)
TO: Karl M
Hey Karl --thanks for the nice words -- I sent you a long email to keep from cluttering this place up with personal sh----" --Havent seen YOU over at MY place (board) in ---
A G E S---(heh heh)
Here a few nice model pictures for you especially!
regards - Joe
webmaster - NYC Transit Modelers Group (Forum)
BMT El Gate-Car train arrives at local station on a Brooklyn El on a beautiful cloud filled clear day
IRT 1939 Worlds Fair cars head a local train stopped at a local 3rd Avenue El station in this building rooftop shot...about 1963
A Third Avenue Railway System streetcar seen under wire in the shadows of an IRT Bronx overhead el line circa 1949-50 in this second floor window level view.
An old telephone-pole-mounted NY cast iron bracket long-arm streetlight (Kevin Walsh would like that!)
watches over a new red and cream 1947 GM transit Bus of the Surface Transportation System Company as it passes a Third Ave. Railway Streetcar under wire, both in the shadows of a Bronx IRT overhead El Line, circa, 1948
We move to roughly 1958-9 and see a new NYCTA GM Fishbowl type Transit bus running in the shadows of an overhead IRT Bronx El line over cobblestone street still with trolley tracks.
Train of IRT steel subway Low-V cars departs an El local station - cars still have INTERBOROUGH lettering...view taken from top of a trackside signal post ladder on catwalk just beyond end of station platform
Dang! No scenes of Unca Selkirk defacing Honark's Pigway. I must say I'm disappointed. :)
Heh heh - YOU WANT them here ---I will get my gal Tina to URL them pronto and I can then post them here -if you really want that ...maybe you should beg me --for torturing me over the other place - or do you want me to wait til the night scenes come thru??? BTW --did you restore that sign to its original "look" in the daytime or at night???
regards - Joe
Hey, you can "capture" those jpeg scenes off my board yourself and post them here yourself---do it Kevin !
(Do You dare --hehe???)
Actually, when I post a picture, I either link to the site where I found it or I have to put it onto a page on our CORPORATE site which always gets my butt in trouble. No matter how well I try to hide them, our propeller-heads find them and then rat me out to the head cheese. (I guess all my supervision of THEIR work causes this heh) ...
But go ahead if you want to, the statute of limitations expired at about the same time as the WF LoV's did. But of course if they put me in the room with the hanging lamp, I'm going to have to drop dime on some of my cohorts who were in uniform at the time. :)
Unca Joe...WHAT's Up!
Nice shot! That Bluebird looks like it's stopped at Sutter Ave. on the Canarsie Line.
Watch the closing doors! ;-)
hey guys just letting you know, that friday my supervisor mentioned to me (HE FOUND OUT IM A RAILFAN WORKIN FOR METRO NORTH) he mentioned the harmon open house should fall on october 19th 2002 of this year. THIS DATE NOT CONFIRMED YET, BUT THATS MOST LIKELY THE DAY SINCE ITS A SATURDAY. anyways i will keep u all informed with more info. i gotta report to N white plains tomorrow and get more.....
A bunch of us went last year, if you haven't done it, don't miss it.
Lots of give aways, plus many new & old M-N stuff to view & board.
They even do a Fall Folage ride north out of the yard, it's cool.
Okay....I know that the colored rectangular decals under the car numbers denote the particular fleet to which the car belongs, but I noticed something on the 7 today that got me curious.
Some of the cars had a dark blue rectangular decal, but then in the middle of that rectangle was an orange diamond, and to the side of the rectangle was a green circle. (Just a green circle, not the tennis ball thingy that was mentioned in another thread.) Can anyone tell me what the orange diamond and the green circle mean?
Well, the orange diamond over the blue stripe is supposed to mean that it's a Livonia fleet car as opposed to a Lenox fleet car...the green circle, I honestly don't know...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Those Former Livonia Cars!"
Thanks for the info, Carlton.
Maybe the green dot means they ran out of purple rectangles! :-)
actually it might mean that it is a cab end
can anyone get a picture of this? cause i have no idea what you're talking about. lol.
I finally took a ride on the 2 train today. Once that train got into the Bronx, some very strange ( and rude) people got onboard. They Weren't like the #6 crowd at all ( which doesn't let their kid run around hitting people). Anyways, after getting a very long ride and good look at the R142's, I came back here to post more differences between the crap trainset, and the exceptional Trainset.
The R142's have very LOUD announcements , the lady voice is muffled, the guy voice sounds like he's talking from far away, but the Conductor sounds crystal clear. How old is that female voice? She sounds like my grandmother.
The R142a's announcements are nowhere as loud as the R142 announcements, but all voices are very clear and audible throughout the car and are at a comfortable volume.
The R142's interior speakers are arranged down the center of the car and ( here's a shocker) the covers are attatched by SCREWS!!! (Here Vanadals, vandals vandals... destroy me) There's a speaker on the A\ C unit before the air intake.
The speakers on the R142A's are integrated into the sides of the ceiling and are exposed by a circular aerrangement of holes in the side paneling.
You can see into the C\ R's compartment through the top of the door( there's a big gap ) on the R142's. This is not possible on the R142A's.
The center ceiling bar is SIGNIFICANTLY higher from the ground on the R142's than it is on the R142A's.
This same ceiling bar is attached to the pole that runs from the ground by a large grey clamp thing that has many screws, and it is attatched by many similar assemblies to the ceiling, on the R142's.
On the R142A's the pole is seamlessly attatched to the ceiling bar, which attached to the ceiling by a metal assembly which is only distinguished as being different from the ceiling bar on close inspection. It is the same assembly that attaches the bar above the seats to the ceiling, near the light strip.
I also saw, what a subtalker mentioned about the cab door not being flush with the outside wall of the cab ( it also forms a little doorway for people to stand in)[on the R142's]. It indeed looks very strange to a passenger. Of course, the cab door is flush with the passenger compartment wall on the R142A, and does not have a little doorway.
The holes on the cab door are large, farther spaced, and arranged in a circle on the R142. On the R142A, the holes are smaller, closer together, and arranged in a square grid pattern.
For some bizarre reason, the seats on the R142 were NOT as comfortable and supportive as they usually are on the R142A. It seemed like the lumbar support was lower and flatter on the R142's, and more pronounced and higher on the R142A's. Maybe it was just me...
THE AIR CONDITIONING ON THE R142's SUCKS!!!!!!. Only
This is an errant post, please do not respond!!!
Delete this Particular thread ( not the complete other one, by the same name). Thanks Dave!
I finally took a ride on the 2 train today. Once that train got into the Bronx, some very strange ( and rude) people got onboard. They Weren't like the #6 crowd at all ( which doesn't let their kid run around hitting people). Anyways, after getting a very long ride and good look at the R142's, I came back here to post more differences between the crap trainset, and the exceptional Trainset.
The R142's have very LOUD announcements , the lady voice is muffled, the guy voice sounds like he's talking from far away, but the Conductor sounds crystal clear. How old is that female voice? She sounds like my grandmother.
The R142a's announcements are nowhere as loud as the R142 announcements, but all voices are very clear and audible throughout the car and are at a comfortable volume.
The R142's interior speakers are arranged down the center of the car and ( here's a shocker) the covers are attatched by SCREWS!!! (Here Vanadals, vandals vandals... destroy me) There's a speaker on the A\ C unit before the air intake.
The speakers on the R142A's are integrated into the sides of the ceiling and are exposed by a circular aerrangement of holes in the side paneling.
You can see into the C\ R's compartment through the top of the door( there's a big gap ) on the R142's. This is not possible on the R142A's.
The center ceiling bar is SIGNIFICANTLY higher from the ground on the R142's than it is on the R142A's.
This same ceiling bar is attached to the pole that runs from the ground by a large grey clamp thing that has many screws, and it is attatched by many similar assemblies to the ceiling, on the R142's.
On the R142A's the pole is seamlessly attatched to the ceiling bar, which attached to the ceiling by a metal assembly which is only distinguished as being different from the ceiling bar on close inspection. It is the same assembly that attaches the bar above the seats to the ceiling, near the light strip.
I also saw, what a subtalker mentioned about the cab door not being flush with the outside wall of the cab ( it also forms a little doorway for people to stand in)[on the R142's]. It indeed looks very strange to a passenger. Of course, the cab door is flush with the passenger compartment wall on the R142A, and does not have a little doorway.
The holes on the cab door are large, farther spaced, and arranged in a circle on the R142. On the R142A, the holes are smaller, closer together, and arranged in a square grid pattern.
For some bizarre reason, the seats on the R142 were NOT as comfortable and supportive as they usually are on the R142A. It seemed like the lumbar support was lower and flatter on the R142's, and more pronounced and higher on the R142A's. Maybe it was just me...
THE AIR CONDITIONING ON THE R142's SUCKS!!!!!!. Only ONE of the Air conditioning units in the car I was in worked!!! When I went to the other end of the car, the air was barely cool. I went into the next car, The air was mildely cool. I was in heaven ( siberia) when I went into Manhatten in car ( R142A #6 train) 7572, and expected the same when I took the #2 but I guess I was wrong. All I got were loud fans and mildely cool air. Was I asking too much??
The Air intake [ interior]for the A/C on the R142's is a small metal grate near the end of the car. On the R142A's the air intake covers about half of the A/C unit [ interior] and is the same color as the ceiling.
The poles on the wall, in the wheelchair station are very different in the R142 and R142a.
The Interior LED infromation screen is much dimmer on the R142 than it is on the R142a, which is much brighter. This interior LED sign ALSO blanks out like the Exterior sign in the R142. No sign blanks out on the R142A.
When the LED in the strip map on the R142 turns off, it leaves a white circle. On the R142A, when a strip map LED turns off, the circle is dark.
THe directional arrow on the strip map on the R142 glows dimly. On the R142A, each distinct LED is visible and the arrow is more pronounced.
BODY PANEL GAPS!!!!!! I have never seen a body panel gap on a R142A car, let alone one the size of the one I saw today on the 2 train right above the doors!
The red lights that are inside the cars which turn on when the doores open, and off when the doors close, are mounted at the top of the doorway on the R142's, instead of the traditional place of beside the doors like they are on the R142A's.
The framing around advertisements which are mounted on the side wall is different in the two different trainsets.
The bottom of the box ( on the inside, the thing containing the frame which transit art is placed) containing the exterior LCD sign is sloped down on the R142's. On the R142A's the bottom of the box containing the outside LCD sign is flat.
There are many more differences that I could get into, But I have already bored you enough.
All thoughts welcome!!
If you don't respond with A thought, feel free to hijack this thread!
This is the CORRECT thread. Please Respond!
Did I get most of the major small differences between the R142 and R142A?
I'm surprised a person would be so concerned with such an issue. Don't you hate the new hi-tech trains, BTW?
All the differences you listed are aesthetic. I'm sure it's no major concern, aside from company preference.
--I'm surprised a person would be so concerned with such an issue. Don't you hate the new hi-tech trains, BTW? --
I love new tech because it is just the thing that shows that the TA cares about the subways and the people that ride them. If they didn't care, these trains wouldn't be so comfy.
The only new tech thing that I absolutely hate are the Bombsuckier ( Real name : Bombardier) R142's. I can't stand them or the company because they really show that they don't give a rat's ass about the quality of the product that they produce. The R142 is a shining example of this.
Kawasaki, the makers of the R142A and R143, on the other hand show great attention to detail and a pride in their product. As a result, their products are extremely reliable, and when there is a problem their techs come over and fix the problem in a timely manner. They also make sure that the problem does not occur again in future products that they produce. The R142A ( and I'm sure the R143) is a joy to ride home and to manhatten, as it is very comfortable and quiet.
--All the differences you listed are aesthetic. I'm sure it's no major concern, aside from company preference--
Yes they are all asthetic, But if you look carefully you will notice that the things I cited imply the quality of the product. Would you prefer a frigid R142A, or a Mildly cool R142 on a warm day? How about being able to see into the Conductor's Booth through a large gap in the door? Does that imply good or poor quality? Would you buy a Brand new automobile that is loosely screwed together? If you would, how long do you think it would last out on the road?
When you think about it, The bottom line is that the quality of bombardier products is lacking and it shows even more when compared to Kawasaki products.
I completely agree with you on all points, but I already knew about the issues involving Bombardier and their product quality. Wasn't there something floating about involving Alstom and how they were the ones responsible with the faulty wheels (I'm not sure of the specifics).
Otherwise, I have to admire your sheer interest in the differences. I suppose you'll spot out the differences between the R62 AND R62A? (It's much harder, BTW).
Alstom made the doors, propulsion and software for the R142's.
Alstom made the doors, propulsion and software for the R142's.
""THE AIR CONDITIONING ON THE R142's SUCKS!!!!!!. "
??........hmmmmmmmm........!!
i thought when you REDBIRD HATERS got rid of them your AC problem was
going 2 B fixed !!! ...eh?..........lol !!!
also why cant a r-142 hookup to a r-62 ?? & operate !!!
used 2 B able 2 do this !!!
......................................lol !!!!!!!!!
I believe that the V Train should be extended to Kings Highway on Weekdays, and should have limited service on weekends to 2 Avenue in Manhattan. Because, Sixth Avenue F Train Passengers aren't taking this V Train, instead they take the Crowded F train because its the Queens BLVD. Express. I have rode the V train in numerous Occasions on Rush Hours and off-peak hours, and I see barely, no one use the V Train. the only thing that its good for is to try connect from their local stations to either 74 Street/BWAY or Queens BLVD, for F train Service. My plan, is to extend V Train service on weekdays and have service on the V on Weekends to 2 Avenue/Lower East Side.
How is extending the V train into southern Brooklyn going to help riders along Queens Boulevard, the vast majority of whom are headed for destinations within Manhattan?
David
How is extending the V train into southern Brooklyn going to help riders along Queens Boulevard, the vast majority of whom are headed for destinations within Manhattan?
About the same way that extending the F train to Coney Island from Bway-Lafayette did in 1967. :-)
That's why they should cut the V service (rush hours only), instead of raising fares. Or, better yet, increase R service during the times when the V isn't running.. It goes to a more important destination.
N Bwy
but the v provides a more important manhattan service. the v should be full time
He's allergic to the V train. Don't confuse him with facts.
It's OK. I'm sure the R train appreciates his business.
The most important thing is that he rides - no matter what train it is. Patronage of the subway is cool.
i guess so, but i still think that the v should be full time
What does "barely no one" mean? I've seen V trains in off hours with half the seats filled; and I've seen V trains at rush hour with standees (but not nearly as full as the E or F, certsinly).
Current surveys show 52% utilization. You need to be more precise with your descriptions.
I agree with you about Brooklyn service. It may yet happen - the TA must have additional rolling stock and the Manny B/Bergen Tower rebuilds will help.
I'm sorry that I keep repeating this but I will suggest again:
1. Run V local to Kings Highway.
2. F should run express all the way to Kings Highway. Running express in Manhattan is debatable (along side a V local).
What about having express service below 34th street?
3. Extend the G to Church Ave. So there is no congestion on the middle tracks at 4th Ave. in Brooklyn.
This could be rush hour only or any other time.
comment: when I lived near kings Highway, I always thought that it was a waste of time having to take an F LOCAL all the way
home. I grew up on the Brighton Line (Sheepshead Bay) and was used to taking the Express home.
when enough car equipment and new crews are hired is when we'll see something like that happen,till then,keep on dreaming
"I'm sorry that I keep repeating this but I will suggest again:"
A fine suggestion, but one that costs money. Once NYCT has the equipment, they will consider it if the traffic on the line justifies the extra service.
If I lived in Queens, I'd use it. Leaving 10 minutes early, but being able to sit and read my paper in peace is worth it. What's with this express=God thing going around NYC? No other city in the world even HAS express subway service.
People don't want to leave earlyt, they want and need sleep. Also People don't want to be in transit for long periods of time. I would NEVER get off the <6> at parkchester to take the local which lasily meanders through the tunnels. People don't have much time to themselves and time savings is welcome, so they can have some 'down time'. This culture is bent on saving time. People feel better if they feel they are saving time even if they really aren't. The best example of this would be the "LIMITED" bus which sits at a stop for 5 minutes packing in people while the locals zoom by, empty.
As a slightly off coment remark, people need to see that V service is a crock. Its a waste no matter what you do with the train. Its so typical of MTA thinking. G services stinks, the crowding at 23rd Ely is ridiculous, the 7 train is under construction on the weekends, the L single tracks on weekend nights. Its ridiculous if you live in Greenpoint / Williamsburgh. Doesn't matter what you do with the V - for that matter extend the damn thing over the Willy B and down to Canarsie or Jamaica. It still wouldn't get riders. Why not use the Montauk line as a high-speed line and build a transfer to the Vernon-Jackson 7 station? How about using the Bay Ridge RR from Coney Island along the L line and Wilson Ave. into Queens building a transfer into the 7 and IND lines or taking it out to LGA?
Doesn't anyone give a damn about the commuter any more? The MTA needs to get its head out from up its you know what and use what there is already.
"As a slightly off coment remark, people need to see that V service is a crock. Its a waste no matter what you do with the train. Its so typical of MTA thinking. G services stinks, the crowding at 23rd Ely is ridiculous, the 7 train is under construction on the weekends, the L single tracks on weekend nights"
Yes - in other words, MTA is busy maintaining and repairing the subways. Result: Riders get trains that keep running smoothly and safely, while you get to whine and post foolishness on Subtalk.
"Doesn't anyone give a damn about the commuter any more? "
It's pretty clear you don't.
first off,your just bitchin and moaning so cut the crap out.secondly, the V train is there to help people yet they're too dumb to take advantage of it because as someone said,saving time is all anyone gives a damn about,like 2,3 even 4 mins really means much at all.if it were 10 or more then we'd got something going but since NO express saves more than 4mins,its not even worth taking it,unless it goes to where a local doesnt get you,like Jamaica Center for example,the V and R dont take you there but the E does,so naturally you'd have to be on the E to get to JC.
Anyway,construction on other lines might cause headaches but thats only cause people refuse to learn in advance what the hell's goin on then they complain like the morons that they are about it,thats old news.Now be thankful that starting in 2 weeks the G is supposed to go back to using 6 car R46's since its required cause of the overcrowding since it has only 4 cars.I've said this to others already who've complained about the V and live along the G , if you dont like how things are right now,then pack your bags and move the hell out.I'm sick and tired of people complaining and whining and in the end,they're only dead wrong about everything they say.
I have yet to see anything in writing from NYC Transit saying that G trains are going to 6 cars. I'll keep looking, though.
David
Nobody's suggesting that people get off the express and get on the local (unless they're going to local stops). The severe allergy to the V seems to be in people who (a) first board at Roosevelt but refuse to take a local, even if it comes first, or (b) board the local between Continental and Roosevelt and insist on getting off and waiting there for an express.
Here are the facts. If an E and a V (or R) close their doors at Roosevelt at the same time, and there are no delays on either track, the E will arrive at Queens Plaza about four minutes before the E. OTOH, if someone sitting comfortably on a V gets off at Roosevelt and waits four minutes for an E, the E will reach Queens Plaza at the same time as the V, and our passenger has given up his seat in exchange for a four-minute wait on a hot platform followed by a standing ride on a crowded E.
The V is a tremendous asset at the local stations, which never before had direct access to 53rd or to 6th. Have you noticed that, whenever newspaper articles declare that nobody likes the V, they only interview people at express stations? Of course the people at express stations prefer express trains -- why not interview some people at local stations for a change?
What's interesting about the relatively small timing difference there is that
a) The express run between Roosevelt and Queens Plaza is a very fast run (a little slower now near Queens Plaza because of the need to negotiate the 41 Av ramp switches).
b) The local traverses the two sides of a right triangle while the express travels the hypotenuse.
Intuitively, one might expect the difference to be bigger. But it isn't.
Lesson: An express train will save you time if it comes first, or at the same time as a local. Otherwise, express and local trains, if used properly redistribute load based on destination of travel so as to help get more people seats.
My rule of thumb is that an express saves about 30 seconds per local stop bypassed. With only five stops bypassed, a four-minute savings already reflects the faster-than-average express run and the shortcut.
Next time I'm in NY (it will be shortly) I'll keep that heuristic in mind.
Gee Ron:
Seems you are yet another brain surgeon who works for the MTA. Lovely. Hasn't been any independent thinking in that org since the Truman Admin.
What I was suggesting is: One - the MTA makes use of existing trackage that either is available or could be available and Two - that the MTA can only work on one weekend project in one neighborhood at once.
Ron, you're just another MTA hack.......
"What I was suggesting is: One - the MTA makes use of existing trackage that either is available or could be available and Two - that the MTA can only work on one weekend project in one neighborhood at once."
So people in those neighborhoods can be at risk for derailments and track fires and have lousy service for three times as long as they do now. What a generous suggestion on your part. Should we nominate you for the Nobel Prize in transit?
"Ron, you're just another MTA hack......."
If you want to believe that, OK. I've been lucky enough to be allowed to participate with other people in getting some real transit accomplishments done.
Let's say you do care about the transit system (I'm skeptical, but let's say you do). What have you actually accomplished lately? What have you done to make a difference?
Ron doesn't work for the MTA. I don't know what his profession is -- he may be a brain surgeon.
The available trackage should be used in the way that best serves the ridership body. If that means that an occasional track here or there sits unused, so be it.
Station rehabs and track/signal work take long enough under current conditions. Imposing additional restrictions would only make them take longer and cost more. I don't think that would be a good idea. The TA posts major service advisories in advance. Read them and plan ahead.
If I were a brain surgeon, I wouldn't have time to post on Subtalk or testify at transit-related hearings. I do non-surgical medicine of various types, among other things...
The express mentality leads to silly actions, like Manhattan bound Q circle riders getting off their train at Church Ave to wait for a diamond Q, just to skip one stop!
I've seen that, too. Boggles my mind. People even give up perfectly good seats so that they can crowd in like sardines.
I was on a Circle-Q last week that got the last laugh, though. After the throng of lemmings streamed across the platform to board the Diamond at Church, we pulled out first and actually were allowed to cross over in front of them as we approached PP. I suppose they held the Diamond at Church for some reason.
Regardless, it made me chuckle. Served `em all right for outsmarting themselves...
=Rednoise
(NewQirQ)
V ridership is visably increasing. Unless we see another whining article/news report about how the V is a "waste", it will continue to rise. Even as it stands, the V is a success because it draws enough E/F riders away to bring both these line's total passanger capacity to under 100% for the first time in decades.
V ridership will increase regardless of the articles. Or maybe because of them...
It's not doing very much for the E, because this line is still extremely crowded. But it's better than the former arrangement.
N Bwy
It doesn't help the E as much because, from the Manhattan side, it mainly helps redistribute the F's load.
But as people at Roosevelt, Queens Plaza and even Continental who usually get on an E get smarter about using the different trains (local riders are doing so) they will benefit from the V as well.
E capacity as increased from a pre-V 95% to the current 98%. The F line before the V was introduced was at 102%. It's now at 95%. Considering the fact that the E runs 15 TPH now as opposed to the 12 TPH it had before the V, E riders are actually better off with the current setup.
Even those who use the G have no reason to complain. For the first time since 12/16/01, I used the x-fer at Court Sq. on Monday Using the "people mover", I went from the G platform to the E/V platform in 90 seconds. So much for an "inconvenient transfer". With trains being expanded to 450' feet come 9/8, the last reason for complaint has been eliminated.
Yes, but if the saving is 4 minutes and the E/F express is running 30tph, the average wait is 1 minute (average gap 2 minutes, so hypothesis of normal distribution about half that gap) - so by changing you save on average 3 minutes. This is the one place I know of in NYC where changing for an express can make sense.
The E and F don't have any stations in common south of Roosevelt, with the one exception of W4. Almost everybody at Roosevelt waiting for an express wants specifically the E or specifically the F. The average wait time is two minutes, not one, so, with no knowledge of how far away the next train is, the average savings is only two minutes.
Now, two minutes is still something. If people want to give up their seats, stand on a hot platform for an average of two minutes, and cram onto a packed train to save two minutes, I don't have a problem with that.
But how many of those people think they're saving ten minutes, not two? How many of those people would never give up a seat if they knew they were only saving two minutes?
Sometimes it's clear the wait will be longer than two minutes. In particular, if I'm on a V that gets to Roosevelt just as the doors on an E across the platform, I know to expect a full four-minute wait for the next E. I might as well stay where I am; chances are I'll meet that next E at Queens Plaza anyway, and I don't think there's a general rule of which train goes first past QP. (Where two lines that serve similar corridors, one overcrowded and one not, merge, I think there should be a general rule that, schedules permitting, the uncrowded line should have priority, as a means of evening the load somewhat. But I don't think the TA has such a rule.)
The E and F don't have any stations in common south of Roosevelt, with the one exception of W4. Almost everybody at Roosevelt waiting for an express wants specifically the E or specifically the F.
True. The only exception is that if you want to end up on or near 7th Avenue, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference which one you take (actually I bet people are so lazy that most people doing that would transfer at 59/CC and be stupid enough to wait for the 3 Train).
To satisfy the people between Roosevelt and Continental, maybe we would need a few rush hour specials that start at Continental and run local, but switch to the express at Roosevelt. Maybe that's what they should have done with the E's that start at 179th. When the final new service pattern goes into effect in 2004, then perhaps that could be a Q special (which would then access 63rd from the expres and then switch over to Broadway at Lexington).
These would be only a few trains per hour (like the old QB or Nassau specials), but would probably be the only thing to stop some people from changing to the express at Roosevelt.
Which means adding the time necessary to switch to the express at Roosevelt and then again for 63rd. Fawgeddabowdit. Run the V local all the way from 179 via 53, let the F run Hillside/QB express via 63. The folks at local stops east of Continental wanting 53rd would probably learn to just stay on the V. In the current pattern, these folks have to change, so they cram into the E at Union Tpk or Continental thinking it'll be faster. I think people would be more inclined to just stay on the local if they've already got a seat and discover they can get a few extra winks or read the paper as a bonus.
True enough, though going local from 179 all the way in is a long ride indeed.
What are the dwell times at the local stations, like 30 seconds or so? Under normal conditions, I wouldn't think it'd be more than a max of 10 minutes longer than what they do now.
Dwell time at a typical local station is about 10-15 seconds (that's my impression, not a scientific observation). Total time lost on a local is about 30 seconds per local stop. From Continental to Queens Plaza, the local is scheduled to take about 8 minutes longer than the express, IIRC (I'm not looking at the schedule right now).
MTA figures from the 1980's show average dwell time across the system is 20 seconds.
I don't know how much that varies from station to station.
A lot. Express stations have higher dwell times than local stations; transfer points have higher dwell times than single-line stations.
It a simple local station has a dwell time of over 20 seconds, the platform is overcrowded and chances are it could use some more local service.
Too much switching. Leave things as is and the morons, er riders will adjust accordingly.
You show much too much trust and confidence in subway riders.
:0)
Nah, I've just seen this before. How many people cried last July when the Manhattn bridge flip was originally done? One year later, people have adjusted.
why not interview some people at local stations for a change?
Because then the reporter would have to actually *RIDE* a LOCAL train.
And why should he/she do that when there are EXPRESS trains from all of the Newspaper offices!
Elias
(What's with this express=God thing going around NYC? No other city in the world even HAS express subway service.)
There is a "customer is always right" aspect to this that has to be considered, and I believe there are a couple of reasons.
First, my guess is that most people don't have the long subway riders that you have in NYC. New York is a large city in area as well as population. I'd guess that only London and Tokoyo feature 1:15 rides, plus the waits, walks, and transfers.
Second, with every stop you are jerked twice, then jostled by those getting on and off. This is uncomfortable, especially underground where you don't see it coming. It's like a less intense version of Space Mountain. My guess if that if the local was two mintues FASTER, people would prefer the express if it traveled at a steady rate.
What to do? I put in a suggestion to run the V and R express via battery run, with the V local from 71st to Roosevelt and the R local from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza. With perfect timing (line supervisors with radios on the platforms until ATS comes along), you could do this with 7.5 trains per hour on both lines, and if it didn't work or people didn't like it, you'd at least get credit for trying. There would no longer be any incentive to change to the E at Roosevelt, so the V would fill.
Let's say this works, and the problem becomes TOO MANY people on the V train. Perhaps the unuseed Roosevelt Avenue terminal, or a new station beyond it, could be hooked up to the local tracks as a turnaround. Then, with only a four minute difference between express and local, you could run one train local from Roosevelt directly behind the express, and still be sure of arriving at Queens Plaza far enough ahead to not slow the next express down, with 10 trains per hour. And with two local terminals, you might be able to squeeze the G back in too.
If you really want to balance the ridership out, it would make more sense for the following pattern to be suggested (flipping the Queens routes of the F and V):
(F) Continental - Queens Local - 53rd St - 6th Av Local - Culver - CI
(V) 179 - Queens Express - 63rd St - 6th Av Local - 2nd Av
That doesn't work. Not only does it not balance ridership out, but it screws up service completely on Queens Blvd. local stations.
We've been through this 100 times. Check the archives, look at the subway map and pencil it out for yourself. "Flipping" the lines makes no sense at all and serves no purpose.
With respect, we have not been through this one at all (YOU check the archives - it's full of two expresses through 53rd) - service would be exactly the same in Queens except that the OTHER train would be the main service to Brooklyn. As the Culver line is the F train, I chose to arrange the letters that way round on my post as both would go to Queens anyway. I might as well have called them the P train and the ZQ train.
My apologies. Yes, you do offer a new idea we haven't seen before. The Queens-Manhattan side express service is maintained, but the local train continues to Brooklyn...
OK, worthy of consideration. However, I'm still not sure I'd expend the resources needed to plan and set it up, because the Manny B is reopening in 2004, and the Bergen Tower should be working by then, too. So then you've got a whole new ballgame (a big win for riders!)
because the Manny B is reopening in 2004, and the Bergen Tower should be working by then, too. So then you've got a whole new ballgame
Hopefully this won't mean that Broadway is back to N express and R local only.
I can't imagine that service would do anything except improve. New rolling stock is arriving, and I'm sure a number of different schemes will be possible. It really is good news.
The pattern will change again, of course, some years down the road, when Second Avenue subway trains enter the 63rd Street bellmouth for the first time. But as the TBM will only start drilling in '04, we don't have to concern ourselves with it now...
What would your guess on 2004 be? B or W on the West End - or even both? Or something else? (Yes, I know it hasn't been decided, in case David without the surname is reading, but it's fun to exchange guesses on it).
My guess would be:
(N) Astoria - Broadway Exp - Sea Beach - CI
(Q) (2nd Av Line -) 57/7 - Broadway Exp - Brighton Exp - Brighton Beach
(R) as present
(W) Astoria - Broadway Local - Whitehall
(B) 145 or BPB - 6th Av Exp - West End - CI
(D) 205 - 6th Av Exp - Brighton Local - CI
(F) as present
(V) as present
(M) as present
Your guess is better than mine.
That wouldn't balance the ridership. Everybody boarding at an express station and going to 53rd would have no choice to take the express. Everyone approaching Roosevelt on a local would have no choice but to get off and transfer to an express. Everyone boarding between Roosevelt and QP would have no choice but to wait specifically for an R -- not a V! -- and transfer to an E or F at QP. That puts them in a worse position than they've been in for decades with respect to access to 53rd, while the current service arrangement puts them in the best position they've seen for decades.
Quite possibly the few folks who want to flip the V and the F want to segregate all the express rider transfers at 53/Lex, and all the local rider transfers at 59/Lex, with the V running local hitting every stop but Queens Plaza (it can't hit QP, obviousy). So maybe the idea is if you want to go to any local stops in Queens, you don't use 53rd/Lexington. If you're on the Lex, you'd have to use 59th Street to transfer; if you're on 6th Avenue, you'd have to get on a V train because the F would take you to the wrong place (or you'd have to back-track from an express stop).
Riders would have a problem with that.
Also, to compound it, there would be zero local-to-local transfers between the Lex and Sixth Av line, and no one seat express service north of 50th Street, which is what the current service plann provides. The F now serves the full length of Sixth Avenue and adds service to anew portion of the East Side, something it didn't do before. In a sense, this is the F as it always should have been.
And of course, what we end up with is more overcrowding on the 53/Lex platform, and overreliance on local service at 59/Lex, which is limited in what it can offer because N train service goes through there too.
You're assuming that everyone who's going to 53rd is going there to transfer to the 6. That's not the case -- 53/Lex is one of the busiest entry points in the system. A lot of local Queens passengers need to get specifically to 53/Lex or 53/5.
I wasn't assuming that, but your point is an additional valid one that I did not address. Thank you for addressing it.
Except if you read what I had posted, the F Train would be the local and the V train would be the express.
You're right. I apologize for just skimming your message -- I was assuming your proposal was the same as everyone else's. (Why on earth would I assume that? I know you've seen all those posts. Even if you agree with them, you would put them forth as some brand new idea that just occurred to you.)
Even if you agree with them, you would put them forth as some brand new idea that just occurred to you
I'm sorry if you've gained that opinion of me - I certainly have no intention of doing that!
I was assuming your proposal was the same as everyone else's.
I think we have probably talked so much about that opinion advocated most strongly by the Straphangers Campaign that we're all sick and tired of it and can see why it's a pile of spit.
So few people take the V/F from Brooklyn to Queens that I don't think it really matters whih one terminates at 2nd Ave, as long as the Culver line has enough trains.
You're right. It really doesn't matter which train goes to Brooklyn, the express or local. That would be a more efficient use of trains. But, there's something else you should consider. No matter what the express is called, it must run with a certain amount of trains (12tph, I believe). So, if it's V or F or M, it has to have that amount of service. From an operational standpoint, something has to be done with the trains being taken out of service. Those trains have to run to Coney Island to lay-up. Why not let them pick up passengers? That's one reason why the express goes to Brooklyn.
Another is a terminal capacity concern. Some F trains turn at Kings hwy because Coney Island cannot handle all of the F trains. Similarly, I don't think that 2nd av could handle all of the V trains. So, you'd have to send some of them to the nearest available terminal. That terminal is Church av (Smith 9th could not handle the V in it's present configuration), in brooklyn. Hence, even though service doesn't dictate 12-15tph on the F in Brooklyn, the trains need to go to Brooklyn.
Some F trains turn at Kings hwy because Coney Island cannot handle all of the F trains.
I've never got what's so lousy about the CI terminal that 2 tracks can't handle 12tph terminating.
Will the new Stillwell Terminal resolve that? Will track or signal improvements be made?
well screw your plan cause it flat out wont work.i say it one more time,when there's enough cars in the entire system,THEN something like that will happen.untill then forget it.and trust me,my V train is very reliable,its may be good for what you said but thats only half the truth.its purpose as most of you know already was to relieve overcrowding on the E&F.unfortunately since the clowns up in Queens just LOOOOOVVVVVEEEEEE everything to go fast,they'd rather go fast and be squashed than relax and take a few extra mintues.sides,its not like its gonna hurt so what the hell? they have absoultely no common sense.if they did,then they'd realize that the V does them just as much good as the E or F but since they dont,screw em,i have no sympathy for anyone i see just stand there when a V shows up and let it go till an F shows up.they're being nothing more than a bunch of fools.
".its purpose as most of you know already was to relieve overcrowding on the E&F."
The fact is the E & F are express and people like to get from point A to B fast. Why would you give up an express route they are use to for a local route.(Its not like the Lexington line, where one can get so fed up, express or local ur just glad to fit in a car and feel like ur moving)
Whether V or F, unless you use one of those local stops, and you have an option to bypass em, even if it means standing for 2-5 minutes, most would stand
So until circumstanses give people a reason to take the local, the V remain Vacant, space on the E Expended and the F Flying the same direction?
Are there really enough R40 transplants from ENY to accomplish both ?
No, but it's a *rumor* that "G" trains will be extended to 6 R46 MU's. Jamaica has received a good number of R-32s from Coney, and that will allow the extended train lenght.
The C is FINALLY becoming 10 cars starting 9/8? I've heard nothing of this.
There were rumors going around a few months ago. I don't know if it will actually be happening, but from what I've seen the C has more use for the added cars than the G.
Who else is going? I'm ordering a ticket tomorrow.
I am. But it Sucks that the train is departing from 36st and 4th Ave in Brooklyn.
The organizers are trying to do it different then the Transit Museum trips ... that's why they added the Steeple Cab. Viva la difference.
They moved it for planned G.O.'s
GO on the F near Church Ave. is reason for the change.
I'll be there.
Already got my ticket.
I don't even care about the steeplecab. As long as it's doing more than the Nostalgia does. I love the BMT! BTW, can the steeple run in both directions?
>>>", can the steeple run in both directions?"<<<
Yes, #6 is bi ----- directional.
;-) Sparky
I'm planning on the trip! Will be ordering my ticket this week. Hope it gets back to me here in North Dakota before I fly east on the 15th!
So, what will be the new itinerary if the (F) is GO'd?
Elias
Instead of extending the V, the G should be extended to Kings Highway with the F running express until Kings HIghway. At least when the Coney Island rehab is done.
Haven't we been through this already? The majority of Culver passengers are at local stations. By running only the G as a local, the majority of passengers are denied direct access to Manhattan. Those boarding at three stations, one of which is a transfer point from the BMT, can't even get to Manhattan without backtracking, since the Bergen lower level platforms are out of service indefinitely.
It was tried for a few years in the 70's and wisely abandoned.
If the V is extended as a local, then the F can run express (or vice versa). The G won't cut it.
I don't care whether it's the V, the G or the F, as long as something utilizes southern crosstown express & Culver middle tracks. Of course, I'm partial, since I live at an express stop.
It could work well during the rush if enough rolling stock were available.
I don't care whether it's the V, the G or the F, as long as something utilizes southern crosstown express & Culver middle tracks.
Doesn't it make a difference whether such a service pattern would actually make sense? It's sometimes better for the riding public for all service on a line to be local. For an obvious example, consider the failed W express in Astoria, which saved a minute or two for the lucky people up north when it ran express but now saves more than that for the many more people at local stations who have shorter waits for the train.
How much time would an F express save passengers at express stops? How much time would it cost passengers at local stops? (If the G is the only local, don't forget to account for the required transfer to the F somewhere along the way just to get to Manhattan, and don't forget to account for the backtracking everyone at 4th, Smith-9th, Carroll, and Bergen will have to do to get to the F or the A/C.) How many passengers fit into each category? Without answering those questions, it's impossible to determine the best service pattern.
Of course, I'm partial, since I live at an express stop.
In other words, you're being selfish.
In other words, you're being selfish.
Like politics, all transit needs are local. :O)
Anyway, I'm not advocating a reduction in local service, merely the addition of express. See subsequent posting Simple V Train Solution.
Indeed. My train is always more important than your train, and my stop is always more important than yours.
:0)
All joking and personal needs aside, it just bugs me when I see a perfectly viable infrastructure (a nifty express right-of-way!) being squandered. Same feeling I get when I think about the proposed 2nd Avenue subway not even including a provision for express service!
Arrange for the $$$, and I will personally deliver your check to MTA Chairman Kalikow to fix that second problem.
I wish!
"… it just bugs me when I see a perfectly viable infrastructure (a nifty express right-of-way!) being squandered. …"
The city has a good bit of trackage which is currently sitting unused and feel the same way about it; its a shame to see it wasted.
The Culver line gets a good bit of traffic at times, but not enough for an express service. Would agree more if express usage lead to a new extension that would help relieve another line or provide service to a new area.
As for the G train currently, would be nice if it could run local and terminate at Church Avenue, then again, for what reason. the only added extra benefit would be access to 4th Avenue, but not enough passengers for that either.
As for the G train currently, would be nice if it could run local and terminate at Church Avenue, then again, for what reason. the only added extra benefit would be access to 4th Avenue, but not enough passengers for that either.
You would think there would be more passengers for 4th Ave. because of the transfer to the BMT lines there. Oh, well.
So, during rush hours, run the G and V local to Church Avenue, the Kings Highway F's local Jay through Kings Highway, and the Coney Island F's express between Jay Street and Coney Island. Middays, the CI F's can run local and the G or V might be cut back (Smith-9th or 2nd Avenue, respectively).
Your proposal there is fine, as long as the cars are available and they couldn't be better used elsewhere. (I don't know if they could.)
But if the only local is the G, as you suggested in this thread, then the local passengers would suffer a great loss in service to Manhattan: they'd have no option but to transfer, and some would even have to backtrack.
The express tracks aren't being squandered -- they're just not being used at this time. A track is a tool, and not every tool is effective on every occasion. The track is available for use should it ever prove useful in the broader scheme.
The demand on the Culver doesn't justify the V extension. An F express might draw more riders, but by the time it is possible the West End and Sea Beach will hopefully both be going express over the bridge.
As a local stop rider, I'd be satisfied if you ran the G AND half the Fs local from Church Avenue, leaving the southern Culver with one train every eight minutes and some people who get seats today forced to stand. Would those to the south take that deal to run express from Church Avenue?
...."by that time the Sea Beach will be going express over the bridge." Is that music to my ears or just a pipe dream? Only the TA knows and right know they don't.
The TA knows something will be going over both sides of the bridge, but obviously no specific plans are firm yet.
The TA knows something will be going over both sides of the bridge
Hmmmmmmm - I read all alternatives being considered as including no service on either or both sides being possible if unlikely options.
Where did you read this? Two-track service will remain only if current repairs are unsuccessful, and having no service on the bridge is printed somewhere on paper, but not credible.
Besides MAD Magazine and this board, where did you see this and how do you evaluate the source's credibility?
I didn't say it was going to happen. Indeed it's unlikely the MTA would do that kinda thing. But aren't they only now beginning to work out from scratch how ridership patterns can be best served with all these tracks open (as David without the surname has reminded us several times)? Not using a set of tracks is clearly possible (as the Chrystie St Local tracks show), but I'd agree with you it is extremely unlikely and I would go so far as to say that it's not desirable.
The Manny B's repair history is an admittedly horrible one. But the bridge or its services were not closed during previous repair efforts.
Closing the tracks made the issue much more urgent.
You are absolutely correct in that there are unused track sections and connections on the subway. But the bridge's tracks are very important, so MTA will not leave them idle.
The demand on the Culver doesn't justify the V extension.
Sure it does. Plus the F route as it is now is unbearably slow. Running it express would benefit Culver riders immensly. The extra V service from 2nd Ave to Jay St alone would be greatly appreciated.
If the F ran express from Jay St to Church Ave, it would save approx 6-8 minutes. If the V ran local, everyone on the Culver line would get improved service, since V trains wouldn't be carrying any passangers from south of Church Ave. You might actually get a seat at Carroll St!
My guess is that this service pattern will be introduced sometime in 2006.
The problem with the idea is that all the local stations will become "non-manhattan" stations. It has to be remembered that the G does not go to Manhattan, so any station that is served by the G only (if the F is express) means that a transfer would need to be made. This is what makes the express run to Church almost useless, unless the V served those statins as well as the G.
That's why any implimentation of Culver express service would almost certainly include the extension of the V to Church Ave.
2nd Ave. is such a stupid place to turn the V anyway.
Not a bad service idea I must say. I once proposed running G trains as far as 18 Ave but that sounded a little odd. To get rid of relay space at 4 Ave, G should run local to Church Ave, V run local to Kings Highway and F trains for Ave X should do peak express. Or vice-versa with F/V services.
But maybe you guys can answer this for me. My memory of the Culver line is a little foggy at the moment. Are there any crossovers at Ave X that can permit F trains to run as far as Neptune-Van Sicklen instead of Ave X? It's like kind of in the middle of nowhere, and the N train is close by.
That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in here. Are you serious?
I found a cool website which lays out the grade and alignments for the Boston & Albany lines. Does anyone have a list of speed restrictions for these two CSX subdivisions or for the Boston Line from Conrail days?
Any info is appreciated.
Where is the site you found?
Here's what I found.
I found www.zekedev.com and went to the Boston & Albany track chart.
I found www.zekedev.com and went to the Boston & Albany track chart.
Albany Subdivision
Please refer to it as the Boston Line. Otherwise those idiots at Chicken Shit Xpress win.
Did anyone ride the World Series R142 on the 4 in 2000?
Do you remember what strip maps the train had installed, whether the announcements were automatic or made by the conductor, and what the interior displays showed?
I know that the end signs showed "4," and the side signs showed "World Series Special," but since I didn't ride it, I don't know how the rest of the train was programmed.
Since "World Series Special" doesn't seem like something that would be in the standard repertoire straight from Bombardier, I'm thinking that some motivated parties had to do some quick programming - quick in comparison to the time it's taken to make adjustments due to service changes.
(See where I'm going with this?)
Mark
So, It is possible to readily make programming changes. Perhaps the TA is just plain lazy in doing it since it figure that service changes are temporary.
Mark,
I did not get a chance to ride this train during the Subway World Series, I've only ridden the R142A on the #4, which are just beginning to arrive. However, since in 2000 that R142 came from the #2, my guess is that it had a #2 strip map. I don't know if voices were programmed for the #4, the announcements were most likely made by the conductor.
I did get a chance to ride this train once it was back on the #2 (they kept the pinstripes on for several months). A that time, the #2 strip map was showing. -Nick
Nick...
I didn't get the change to ride that train either, but the train was assigned to the 2, ran the 2 for a short time, then ran dressed up as a World Series Special. The interior and exterior signs said 4-WORLD SERIES SPECIAL, but the strip map was not lit up with 4 train stops, only the "Route Change: This map not in use" sign was lit...only the LCD and LED signs were programmed with that World Series Special messages, but no automated announcements were made, as the changes were for a short time...the train was then sent back to the 2 line for regular service...
What I don't understand is how come they didn't use Kawasakis, which are more reliable (maybe not at the time), and the R142As would eventually make it to the 4 line anyway, so it would make sense to put them there...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"World Series Special"
Probably had to do with which cars would be available those nights as well as getting a R142 qualified crew to operate the run. These logistical issues may have been harder with an R142A.
I just rode the R142A this morning on the 4 from GCT to Wall Street. It has the strip map and all announcements were made.
Also saw a Redbird on the 5 heading toward Bowling Green. I rode downtown Friday afternoon and didn't see any on both trips up and down.
Amtrak’s five-car train, the Downeaster, set new records for ridership and revenues in July, bringing the service just $280,000 shy of its revenue projections for the first year of operation.
This month, the Downeaster will surpass its projection of $3.3 million in ticket sales with nearly four months to spare, said Nate Moulton, deputy director of the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority.
Ridership numbers are tracking closer to projections, with 60 percent of the projected 320,000 passengers by July 31, according to the AP.
“Ridership looks to be on pace to meet or exceed projections, as well. Obviously, we’re very pleased. There are people who said we’d never come close to that,” Moulton said August 20.
Revenues have far outpaced expectations because the average ticket price has exceeded expectations. In July, the average ticket was $15.70, compared to the projection of $10 before the service began. That was because the majority of people riding the Downeaster travel the full length between Portland and Boston. Also, first-class seating for an extra $8 has been popular with riders.
The Downeaster has continued to ply between Portland and Boston largely oblivious to problems afflicting Amtrak, which is suffering from money problems and equipment shortages elsewhere.
In July, 29,683 passengers rode the Downeaster with ticket sales of $465,914. Both figures beat the previous best month of April, which was bolstered by school vacations in Maine and New Hampshire.
The July numbers were given a boost by the addition of stops in Old Orchard Beach and in Woburn, Mass.
The Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority has made adjustments by adding another car to each four-car train to boost seating capacity from 216 to 276, and negotiating new arrival and departure times at Boston’s North Station. This fall, the rail authority hopes to begin running later departures on weekends from Portland and Boston, allowing people to stay longer in those cities before returning home, Moulton said.
The Downeaster went into operation on Dec. 15 with four daily trips in each direction between Portland and Boston.
My wife and I rode the Downeaster to Portland last Thursday and back to BON on Friday. It was a very pleasant trip (my wife liked it) on the comfy Metroliner equipment. On time both ways.
A zoning amendment that would have allowed a Manchester, N.H. entrepreneur, Ben Hauben, to seek a permit for a 25,000-square-foot train station was defeated by an overwhelming margin August 20.
The 423-173 vote was hailed by project opponents as an opportunity to explore other options for an Amtrak station and condemned by project supporters as the fruit of a misinformation campaign.
Hauben had plans for a two-story railway station at the former “Grabbers” site on Route 11-30. Most of the building would have been given over to retail, restaurant and office space.
The building was to have a footprint of about 12,500 square feet, but the town’s zoning bylaws limit building footprints to a maximum of 3,000 square feet in the Commercial-1 zone. The proposed amendment would have granted a development bonus for a railway station, reports the Manchester Herald.
While the change would have affected the entire zone, few sites other than Hauben’s have been identified as suitable for a station. Opponents argued that the change was tailor-made to benefit Hauben, likening it to spot zoning.
Although I have no clue as to what this is about, DAMN THE NIMBY's!SELFISH BASTARDS WHO HOLD UP PROGRESS!!!!!!!!
It's not just NIMBY's that hold up progress, many people on this board would love to see every subway running R1-9s and Low-Vs.
LOL!
many people on this board would love to see every subway running R1-9s and Low-Vs.
Never!!! Should be running Standards, Triplexes (Triplices?), Multis, and Bluebirds!
many people on this board would love to see every subway running R1-9s and Low-Vs.
Never!!! Should be running Standards, Triplexes (Triplices?), Multis, and Bluebirds!
Speak for yourself! I want to get rid of these newfangled electric things and bring back the horse cars!
Fine, as long as you bring the broom, shovel and hokey cart.
Having worked with a horsecar (no, I'm NOT that old, we have one in the BSM collection, car 129 built by the Balto. City Passenger Railway shops circa 1885 and never converted. We use it in civic events and parades, complete with two horses and the proverbial hokey cart.) I prefer the electric variety completely.
Mike, it's not a case of NIMBIES win, Manchester has no need for a rail station anyways. How much demand do you think it will generate? There's enough of a commuter rail mess around Boston as it is. They should be spending money beefing up transit in Boston and not extending it further out to NH.
AEM7
That's not anyone's problem except Ben Hauben, the entrepreneur. If it turns out that the station isn't needed, it fails and he loses money.
GO DAVID GUNN!!!!!
The only question is, is this Phaze VI? Phaze VI? Phaze IVa?
Here's the Article:
“Until their psychedelic colors fade and peel, there will still be plenty of Acela-scheme Amfleet cars plying the Northeast Corridor, resembling sideways lava lamps with their weird colored blobs floating around the cars’ windows, but now it seems that what you see now is all you are likely to ever get.”
Travel agent Gene Poon of San Francisco is not one to sit still and be quiet. He is a frequent poster on Yahoo-dot-com’s “All_Aboard” e-mail list for people who like to watch trains.
“Amtrak has released the first Amfleet coach with the new, Gunn-era revival of the “Phase IV” scheme, which first made its appearance in 1995,” writes Poon. He is a reliable source who honestly knows what he is writing about.
“This is the scheme with the blue window band, and red pin-striping within a white band at the top. The new version has a slightly different shade of blue, and has a reflective red safety stripe at the bottom edge of the carbody.” He added, “The Amtrak ‘Three sheets to the wind” logo is featured; small car numbers appear in the blue window band.”
So what happened to the “bra” logo?
“Nowhere is there any evidence of the name Acela or the Acela bra cup logo. Lovers of lingerie and lava lamps may mourn, but most others regard the Phase IV scheme as the classiest to adorn Amtrak rolling stock since the company began in 1971.”
A conductor in Boston, Dave Bowe, wrote he “noticed this paint scheme over the weekend while switching out cars in Southampton Yard. I figured they were some of the Clocker cars pressed into Regional service. They had the word “Coachclass” next to the vestibule doors using the same font as the Regional and express service. The navy color around the windows seemed a darker navy, and the new logo was present as well.”
Yay. 'Bout time.
There IS a God!!!
That "sideways lava lamp" scheme (VERY good description, BTW...) had to have been thought up while consuming some ignited THC or something similar. It was very UN-businesslike. It was ugly. I can't say enough bad about it. Can you tell I despised it?
I actually like the sideways lava lamp. Just not on Amfleet cars. There was not enough space on an Amfleet car that is painted to make that scheme look good. If the lava blobs extended onto the stainless part of the body, it would look better. But that requires painting the whole car blue.
The cyan/green colors were a failure, if the colours were blue/yellow like they are on the Acela proper, then it would also look better.
BTW, does anything think the blackish-green/gold Conrail OCS cars look like ass?
AEM7
I'm confused. Is the reverse arrow we're familiar with coming back?
No, Phase IV is coming back, but with the run-over triangle logo retained. Phase IV is the Northeast Corridor colors.
AEM7
what about the cars painted in Acela Scheme colors?
I hated that logo anyway. I knew they only did it because of Acela, and Acela sucks ballast.
Sadly, no "reverse arrow". Ah well, there's always SEPTA's catchy logo to look to...
Any pictures of this
The Feds have okayed Seattle Central Link Light Rail project’s advancement into the final design stage of development.
USDOT Secretary Norman Y., Mineta approved the plan last week. He also signed off on Sound Transit’s grant application for $49.5 million in transit “new start” funds for work in the final design phase. The cash will be made available to Sound Transit for eligible and approved final design activities. Congress appropriated the money in the fiscal year 2001 Transportation Appropriations Act.
Mineta said the Congressional delegation for the Seattle region “worked long and hard with all parties to bring the Central Link Light Rail to this approval, furthering our mutual goals to address the serious mobility and congestion challenges facing the region.”
Final design is the last stage of development of a public transportation project. It includes activities such as the preparing final construction plans, getting detailed specifications and cost estimates, bid documents and real estate acquisition.
We'll see how long this lasts until the locals start shutting it down. This has to be one of the most a!@nine projects ever. Not only do the people really not want it, but there are some very good alternatives to the LRT that some people have come up with, namely the Monorails, for which an overwhelming majority of the population approves of. For once I am rooting for the NIMBYs, kill the just-like-every-other-city LRT, bring in the monorail, let Tacoma have the LRT, Seattle deserves better.
Remember Rich Passage and the High Speed Ferrys. For the past 20 or so years, Washington State Ferries has been trying to give Bremerton commuters Passenger Only Fast Ferries to downtown Seattle. Really cool things, they slash the travel time in half from the usual Hour. But the locals in Rich Passage didn't like it, claimed beach erosion, and shut them down. WSF is still fighting, to little avail, if it's an environmental concern, and it's in the Seattle Metro Area, you can bet it will take a decade or two to straighten out. If the locals in say, Rainier Valley don't want the LRT, they will kill it, no question.
http://freewaymonorail.org/
http://www.elevated.org/
The railway connecting Pasadena to downtown Los Angeles received its first shipment of light-rail cars last week.
Its builder said both “Gold Line” cars, each about 100 feet long and costing about $2.3 million, arrived recently at a stretch of track near South Pasadena. They initially will be used to test track on the railway, expected to open next July, according to the Los Angeles Times of August 20.
“It’s a huge milestone for this project,” said Rick Thorpe, chief executive of the consortium building the Gold Line.
Thorpe said the South Pasadena segment will be finished and tested first, probably by November. The $725-million railway is expected to have 26 cars covering the 14-mile route in 30-minute trips.
Construction is proceeding rapidly. Concrete columns now rise nearly 25 feet over parts of Chinatown. Overhead power lines extend along the Pasadena Freeway, and stations from Mount Washington to Highland Park are almost finished.
Construction was delayed early this year when local activists asked the state to review their safety and environmental concerns. In May, the Public Utilities Commission (PUC), the state agency in charge of rail safety, rejected most of the activists’ complaints in a vote that allowed construction to continue.
Many of the activists are appealing that ruling. The PUC is expected to consider the appeals in a closed meeting set for Thursday in San Francisco.
The Gold Line will be run by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority and will connect to the MTA’s hub at Union Station, allowing riders to transfer to the subway, Metrolink or countywide buses and Amtrak.
i posted the pictures on this that i took 2 nights in a row ...
was there to se them off-loaded and put on thier test tracks !!!
remember my original post ?...............lol !!!
i posted the pictures on this that i took 2 nights in a row ...
was there to see them off-loaded and put on thier test tracks !!!
remember my original post ?...............lol !!!
Will the gold line ever join to the Blue and Green Lines? Why would such a system, with interchangable cars, not go for an interconectivity to their lines?
>>> Why would such a system, with interchangable cars, not go for an interconectivity to their lines? <<<
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ The Gold Line is mainly following an old ROW with a short elevated route to get to Union Station which is on the north edge of downtown. The Blue Line enters downtown from the south and goes into a subway for about four blocks to the south part of the downtown business district. To connect the two lines would require tunneling under downtown, almost parallel to the existing Red Line.
Tom
no connection AT ALL !! 2 the long beach blue line at all
bummer !!
“Ontario’s provincial government is hell-bent on the construction of the Mid-Peninsular Highway, which would run between and parallel to the Queen Elizabeth Way and the Canadian Southern Ry. line, said rail activist Raymond Dartsch of Transport 2000 Canada last week.
He said, “The suspicion is” that the Mid-Peninsular Highway (MPH) “will be another toll road to be sold off cheaply to some international consortium, which was the case with Ontario’s 407 highway. The public sentiment is that friends of Ontario’s premier sold the 407 to his friends who are now charging among the highest toll rates in North America (11.7 cents Canadian per km, or 13 cents per U.S. mile). It’s the highway everyone loves to hate, and everyone is hating the MPH in advance for the same reasons. Public response to the highway proposal so far is overwhelmingly negative.”
He said his hometown of Hamilton “is governed by a Chamber-of-Commerce clique that is presided over by Ron Foxcroft, owner of Fluke Transport (and inventor of the pealess Fox 40 whistle, by the way.) Our former regional chairman is now chief operating officer at Fluke. The provincial government basically does everything that these characters want, regarding roads or otherwise. There was a major political amalgamation of adjoining small towns due to a letter from Foxcroft, for example.”
Several months ago D:F reported CN planned to rip out the tracks and sell the lands along the Canadian Southern (former New York Central Railroad) line between Windsor-Detroit and Fort Erie-Buffalo.
The Hamilton Spectator of August 12 reported that The Canada Southern Ry, a historic rail line that runs through the counties of Haldimand and Norfolk, has been given a temporary reprieve from the wrecker’s ball.
Canadian National Railway hoped to have completed tearing up the line between Attercliffe, near Dunnville, and St. Thomas by this month, but it had to shelve its plan after intervention by federal Transport Minister David Collenette.
Municipal and CN officials along the line say Collenette has asked the railway to hold off tearing up the shortest rail route across southern Ontario until seven municipalities have investigated a scheme to buy it. CN, which co-owns the Canada Southern with Canadian Pacific Ry., stated in March it was going to rip up the line in late spring.
The municipalities have until the end of September to come up with a business plan to save the Attercliffe-St. Thomas portion of the line, which hasn’t seen a train since April 1, 1996.
The line, once part of the fabled New York Central Railroad empire of U.S. tycoon Cornelius Vanderbilt, was built in 1872 and carried the well-to-do between New York City and Chicago, as well as immigrants to the American west. CN and CP bought the line, which runs through Cayuga, Hagersville and Waterford, in 1985, from Penn Central.
Elgin County Warden John Wilson, who is spearheading the effort to save the line, is happy about the reprieve, but isn’t convinced the seven can save it. He said the federal government and some private investors have expressed interest in saving the line. But he’s “disgusted” by the response from the provincial government.
“We constantly have highway congestion,” Wilson said.
“When you have a direct rail route across the province, you can get those trucks off the road. I just don’t understand why they are not interested.”
CN and CP are asking $9 million for the 139-kilometer portion between Attercliffe and St. Thomas. CN and CP continue to operate portions of the Canada Southern between Niagara Falls and Attercliffe, Welland and Fort Erie and St. Thomas and Windsor.
The municipalities are receiving help from The Rail Ways to the Future, which is part of Transport 2000, a national transit lobby group. Ross Snetsinger, a retired teacher who heads the rail committee, has met with provincial officials to talk about preserving the line and written to Premier Ernie Eves. The Toronto resident also sees it as a way to prevent highway congestion.
“It should be dusted off before we get into these big highways. You just can’t build roads ad nauseam,” he said.
Haldimand Mayor Lorraine Bergstrand said being asked for about $800,000 scared her council off.
“I wish them well, but we’re dealing with issues like homes for the aged and bridges falling down,” she said.
Wilson is dismayed Haldimand and Norfolk didn’t get on board. The former Haldimand-Norfolk region joined efforts to preserve the line in 1996, saying the region’s agricultural and manufacturing interests would benefit from its retention and it provided an important connection to the U.S.
CN spokesman Ian Thomson said CN is working with the municipalities, but doesn’t see much use for the Attercliffe-St. Thomas section. “We’ve got all the capacity we need,” he added. TEXT
Bombardier Inc. said on Friday it will not make its target 10 percent earnings per share growth. The Montreal-based transportation builder said net earnings are expected to reach $0.70 per share instead of $0.89. Also, the free cash flow target for the fiscal year has been adjusted from $1.5 billion to $1.3 billion.
The giant rail and airplane builder said its financial results would be released during a conference call intended for financial analysts and institutional investors tomorrow.
The corporation stated, “These adjustments are required mainly as a result of the severe downturn in the business aircraft market which is affected by the persistent weakness of the U. S. economy.”
It added, “The revised targets also take into account a one-time charge related to used business aircraft and a similar one related to used commercial aircraft, pursuant to the decision of U.S. Airways to file for reorganization under Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code.”
Robert E. Brown, President and CEO: Louis Morin, Senior Vice-President and Chief Financial Officer; and Michel Lord, Vice President, Investor Relations, will conduct the conference call.
Since their product quality falls short, it is ony appropriate that their earnings fall short as well.
I wonder if not getting any of the R-160 contract let to the drop. Of course, Bombardier doesn't deserve to build them (but hey, neither does Alstom). -Nick
What's wrong with Alstom? They already have plenty of experience with AC proplusion, make reliable equipment on systems more demanding than NYCT, and they ride very smooth. But of course, you're probably biased towards Kawasaki because you've never ridden Alstom stock, so no point in trying to convince you.
--What's wrong with Alstom?--
It's just another name for Bombardier. Yes, Bombsuckier IS Alstom.
if that is true, CAF, Breda, and kawasaki are too
Okay, but if Kawasucki is the only other alternative for subway cars, we're in pretty bad shape.
No, it's not.
"Flyerlover" might be thinking of ADtranz, which is now part of Bombardier. Alstom (which just won a major subway car contract in New York City) is NOT another name for Bombardier in any way, shape, or form.
David
Bombardier has a French subsidiary (ANF Industrie, in the La Defense district of Paris). They build car bodies, both passenger and freight.
Ummm ... beg to differ? Go to google, put in:
alstom bombardier
and voila! :)
I put "alstom bombardier" into Google (both the newsgroups and the Web) and got many, many listings. I looked at a bunch and couldn't find ONE that indicated that Alstom and Bombardier are the same company. Yes, they have worked together on contracts, but they are not the same company.
Please prove me wrong with a specific listing.
David
I didn't say they were one and the same, but if Alstom got the contract, you can rest assured that like any Japanese Karetsu, Bombardier will get a good piece of the subcontracting. Alstom and Bombardier have traditionally worked together. A lot of the Bombardier cars on the road have Alstom propulsion and vice versa in other locations.
I've got some friends up in Plattsburgh and they were told that when Alstom starts building the cars, they'll be building them up there. Ever wonder why Bomardier was so nonchalant about "losing" the contract? :)
Collaborateurs. Merci.
Dammit, The bastards are about to screw us with lemons again!!
Alstom was involved in the citronella scent already. "Consortiums" are a way of life outside the US. And in all sincerity, I dunno WHAT happened with Bombardier lately here in the states, but their stuff SURE DOES WORK ELSEWHERE. That's why I don't get all this caterwalling here. If Bombardier truly made crap, they'd be CONSISTENT about it.
Plattsburg makes crap! Everything that has problems has been through that plant. See: R142's and the Acela.
And THAT would make sense as a common denominator. I know that folks up in Thunder Bay sure don't think much of the "Made in NY" operation, especially when they have to come DOWN to Plattsburgh to kick some butt.
Chances are though, if the politicians had just left the manufacturers alone to build stuff where the manufacturer felt appropriate (if you don't like foreign made, don't BUY them) instead of requiring that local yahoos be handed jobs, deserving or not, then maybe, just maybe the trains would have worked.
Bombardier does MAJOR construction in Plattsburgh. Kawasaki made their cars over in Japan and pretty much left the unwrapping of the plastic to the kids in Yonkers. :)
Then perhaps the answer is better management and worker training in Plattsburgh.
Could be ... for what it's worth, I *live* in upstate New York and there's nothing I'd like to see more than ANY jobs. The folks working at the Bombardier plant used to work at an Air Force base with the skillsets appropriate to such work. Alas, most of that doesn't fall into the category of "precision" or "high tech." At best, many are former airplane mechanics who were unable to find jobs elsewhere.
The *BIG* problem for upstate New York and most of our nation in general is the absolute DISDAIN for "technical education" which in turn has resulted in the hiring of people who have no idea of what "SAE" means, much less "micrometer." As a result of the political choices which ended up destroying New York as a "manufacturing base" where such skill are NECESSARY, we end up forcing companies to hire the unqualified in order to bid on a contract without providing those manufacturers with the skilled employees they need to generate a satisfactory result.
Like I've said often, Bombardier produces GOOD QUALITY trains and airplanes at their Canadian plants, so obviously something else is behind the hard luck stories, be it unqualified workers in Plattsburgh or something about the specifications that requires Bombardier to build in a matter that is unusual for them. One or the other or both has to be the reason for all the troubles since they aren't evident elsewhere. As to "Made in New York" I'd like to see MORE of it. But the people MAKING it in New York have to make it properly and I don't see the skillsets being taught. Certainly not within the bounds of "fast track delivery" demands ...
As a result of the political choices which ended up destroying New York as a "manufacturing base" where such skill are NECESSARY, we end up forcing companies to hire the unqualified in order to bid on a contract without providing those manufacturers with the skilled employees they need to generate a satisfactory result.
Maybe if the Albany Anencephalics would make the hard choices necessary to improve New York's business climate, the state's manufacturing base would spring back without the need for meddlesome rules like the "Made in New York" requirements foisted on MTA contractors. Bombardier might even end up opening a major facility in the state because they want to, not because they have to. Needless to say, of course, no one in Albany has the requisite courage; too many holy cows would have to be sent out to slaughter (e.g. public employee unions and Medicaid profiteers).
Won't argue with you there, but the REALLY hard choice would be properly funding SCHOOLS so that people who can count their balls and come up with the same number twice would be available to "industry." But as long as we keep blowing that money on train stations that nobody wants (the Rensselaer Amtrak station's cost was MORE than the NYC schools were short sheeted this year) and bureaucratic boondoggles that make doing business a pain, it ain't gonna happen.
As just ONE example, our little company is just the wife and I now - we USED to have a couple of employees. Workers' comp and State Insurance fund put an end to that a little over a year ago. We were CONSTANTLY being visited for "compliance", and a computer screwup at Division of Labor caused them to cite us for failing to pay our vigorish for (get this!) "9999 employees" and thus, we were selected for MASSIVE enforcement for failing to pay the state for the 10,000 -1 employees that we were "robbing" ...
The business is in our HOUSE, so where we'd PUT 9999 people wasn't an issue, all they knew was that they had 9999 bodies that we hadn't paid the state for. This nonsense which began two years ago is *STILL* going on and we still get our visits, our threats, our notice of fines, etc although all we ever had was TWO employees and we had to let them go well over a year ago. So I'm personally responsible for 10,000 of those 300,000 "lost jobs" in New York. And they STILL are hassling us. Taking care of the state agencies who just can't get their computer data unphucked eats up about 6 hours a week of our time responding to them, sending them copies of their OWN paperwork and having our lawyer (not cheap) tell them the same thing. Next month, theyyyyyy'rrrre baaaaaack ...
Ya just GOTTA love it. (and the politicos wonder why we didn't stuff their wallets this year)
And, perhaps, the recruitment of workers whose IQ's are higher than either the number of lug bolts on a SUV wheel or a hamster.
Squirrels, I'm not sure of - my maple tree has a family of them living in the holes that all senior trees seem to have. Recently we've been seeing corn cobs around the tree, mostly chewed on - large cobs. Bigger than a single squirrel can carry alone, so they must be working in teams. Course, that could be who Bombardier employs up in Plattsburg
That's probably all there is to employ in Plattsburgh if my experience (Why pay for custom written software and it's R&D costs if you're going to put the computers in the hands of people that have never sat in the same room as one before?) in these little suddenly-industrial towns holds true.
-Robert King
Chances are though, if the politicians had just left the manufacturers alone to build stuff where the manufacturer felt appropriate (if you don't like foreign made, don't BUY them) instead of requiring that local yahoos be handed jobs, deserving or not, then maybe, just maybe the trains would have worked.
Welcome to New York. Do you really think the politicians would avoid meddling?
Heaven FORFEND ... that's why we have hours upon hours of continuous amusement without a cover charge. :)
The CX-100 people mover cars are made in Plattsburg, and they have a 99.9% availibilty rate. Of course, these were designed by ADtranz, before Bombardier could get their hands on it.
What Citronella scent?
Play on words ... odor of lemon. :)
The R160s will be built in the MK Hornell plants i think
Bombardier has the M7 contract, thats why they are not whining
Could be ... only thing I've heard is that Bombardier WILL have a piece of it. How big is anybody's guess. But Alstom and Bombardier have a "consortium" arrangement which is why the current fleet of Bombardier cars have a good amount of Alstom in them now.
Hornell, not Plattsburg! YAY! Whew.
Still "made in new york" where technical education is NOT part of the curriculum. THAT'S the problem. Everyone going to school has to come out with a law degree or an MBA. In OTHER states and nations, people actually learn how to weld, how to measure metal and cut it properly and how to actually build things to a plan. That's one of the reasons why there's no manufacturing in New York and why any employer looking to DO manufacturing in New York is out of their mind. You can't build things if you're hiring people who haven't a clue as to HOW to build things.
You're right. Everybody's parading their doctorate degrees around like they're some kind of badges but when it comes to common sense approaches they don't know their asses from a hole in the ground. I knew an ATD who was in the office so long he smelled like moth balls. As a Motorman Instructor I had to bail this guy out on a number of occasions. He had the title but couldn't do the job. His old man was a big wheel so he never was held accountable for his failures.
Damned shame it is that "technical education" has been given such a stigma, equivalent to "one inch from a welfare check" as far as the public mentality in this state (and many others) goes. When I was in high school, I wasn't permitted to take "shop" (since "that's for dummies and you're on an academic diploma") nor was I allowed to study on my own for engineering, which was what I was interested in.
Among my first jobs were TV repair and I parlayed what I learned from attempting to fix the bad designs of RCA Institute graduates and learned quickly that you don't weld shields over the fuse and a raft of other things that engineers looking at the output of CAD/CAM schematics without a concept of how things need to be fit together so that equipment can be properly inspected and serviced. When I finally got into designing equipment, it was easy to get at and fix and had fewer field failures than other designers. Alas, paid crap.
But you can't expect "manufacturing excellence" from people who don't know which end of the screwdriver goes in the hole. We've deliberately locked out some of our finest minds from doing useful things, so now we have to turn to the Germans, Japanese, even the Chinese to make our things for us since we're not the least bit interested. And then we whine because all those college diplomas are worth an assistant fry-slinger's job at MickeyD's ... it didn't HAVE to be like this.
And yet, the mentality lives on that if you work with your HANDS, you ain't worth spit. :(
When I was first hired by the TA in 1970 I knew a couple of friend of mine that had college educations and couldn't find a job to save their lives. That's a crying shame and that was thirty plus years ago. It appears not too much has changed unfortunately.
And it's gotten worse. There used to be apprentice, journeyman and master skills dispensed by unions in real live factories if you didn't learn it before getting hired up. Now even the UNIONS are barely providing the "edumication" that schools should have provided in the first place. And how many smokestacks can we count these days north of the Carolinas?
Quite a few except most of them are in the rust belt and haven't been in service for years. There are plenty of industrial buildings in the area of Buffalo and Erie (PA) as well as many similar towns but they've all been abandoned and the buildings themselves are often falling to pieces - one particularly sagging roof on a building by the now-abandoned Norfolk Southern tracks in Erie comes to mind immediately.
-Robert King
I had an academic background in high school. When I was hired on with the TA in '70 I started as a Shop Clerk for Cars and Shops. I showed a profound interest in title of Road Car Inspector and one of my bosses said that he believed there was an in-house training program that would help me get the necessary electrical and mechanical education to qualify to take the civil service test. It turns out that that program had already been dismantled. So I turned to Rapid Transit. I enjoyed my career. I could have done worse.
And they wonder why they have to hire immigrants for "carbodsky" these days? (I have NOTHING against immigrants, I merely wonder why we don't qualify our OWN) An "industrialized" nation can't be one without industry and given that our "information society" has tanked ("bigtime") one has to wonder where we go from here. We won the last major wars because we could outmanufacture the enemy. Given our propensity for walking around with a big stick lately, we might want to reconsider what we're backing that stick up with lately. Just a thought.
Our politicians keep telling us that our nation is economically sound but I have serious doubts about that. I think we're in for a rude awakening and our elected officials are looking through rose colored glasses. Just my spin on things.
Quite a lot to digest but right on the money.
Wish it wasn't like this. :(
There aren't that many left in the Carolinas either. Farming is still there, although tobacco is being replaced by soybeans and cucumbers, and of course there's the Perley Thomas Car Works, now known as Thomas-Built school buses, but the furniture industry isn't what it used to be (very little fine craftsmanship, it's almost all assembly line, spray-the-finish-over-cheap-wood stuff now), and the textile industry is all but dead. And we all know what's been happening to high-tech these past few years... the Research Triangle isn't booming any more. Charlotte does have banking, but that's about all they've got.
All the smokestacks moved to China and Mexico.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gotta love those wily investors though ... they moved all the jobs out of here to the Carolinas (and yes, I've been down there and see history repeating JUST as you describe) for lower wages and friendlier "pollution limits" only to find greener pastures across the water. I don't want to take this further off topic by horsewhipping the "laissez fairy" but the "Chicago business school" is rapidly bringing ruination to this country and the really sad part is the very people behind all this can move right offshore and live in their tax havens while we fight over the scraps. Yet we still re-elect these ideologues who have no robes who got us here ... arrrrgh.
But yeah, it's all the UNION's fault. :)
There aren't that many [smokestacks] left in the Carolinas either. Farming is still there, although tobacco is being replaced by soybeans and cucumbers, and of course there's the Perley Thomas Car Works, now known as Thomas-Built school buses, but the furniture industry isn't what it used to be (very little fine craftsmanship, it's almost all assembly line, spray-the-finish-over-cheap-wood stuff now), and the textile industry is all but dead. And we all know what's been happening to high-tech these past few years... the Research Triangle isn't booming any more. Charlotte does have banking, but that's about all they've got.
Maybe so, but the Carolinas (and most other southern states too) have a pro-business environment and culture that makes attracting new types of industry much easier. It's not like New York, where the government micromanages every minute of our lives and does its damndest to drive off business. People in Southern states still have the sort of work ethic that's long since deserted New York. Your typical North Carolinian wants to work, and will put in a full day's work for a day's pay. Contrast that to the typical New Yorker, whose idea of "work" is licking food stamps.
Capitalist theory/propaganda would have us believe Bombardier is being properly chastised by the "market" for its errors. Bridge to Brooklyn anyone?
As to assembly workers, if Kawasaki can build to essentially the same bid specs with some shared subassenbies/components, then Bombardier SHOULD be able to do likewise.
Indeed our entire culture doesn;t value non office work sufficiently. However,intelligent management/design includes figuring out not only how to asemble the object but how to teach the wrker to do it. As a self eployed electrician who occasionally hires helpers, and sometimes has a customer/homeowner who wants to do some of the work, one of my developed skills is teaching hem how to do the tasks. Teaching them has made me better at doing the work in the bargain as well as learning from their questions. But ultimately, it all comes back to a comment from my late father (who wanted me to be some sort of diploma weilding 'professional') "...don't care if you are a damn ditch digger as long as you are ten per cent better than the rest ..." OR put differently, I am proud of what I wire, much as our resident CI seems to take pride in his work, Selkirk seeks to write decent code etc.
...And the $12,000 theft took place on my weekend off...
-Robert King
what???
Let me put it this way: How proud would you be if a $12,000 theft took place while you were in charge of things if you worked in the security business?
I'd hire up Arthur Andersen in a heartbeat. :)
No paper shredders were on the list of stolen equipment :)
Such a nice thing to return to after a weekend off with a PCC fan trip.
-Robert King
Heh. Andersen had their OWN fleet of trucks with shredders on the tailgates. Look up "SHREDCO" ... :)
mortified
No, I never have ridden Alstom stock. But the R142s have Alstom parts which have given these trains problems already, which is why I am not excited about Alstom getting the contract. However, perhaps Alstom not using Bombardier's Plattsburgh plant is a step in the right direction; we'll find out in 2006. -Nick
Bombardier is generating some problems for itself in Camden at the SNJLRTS shop. With the delivery of the first light rail car (scroll down to the last 12 photos, same ones that were put up last week), Bombardier took over the 32nd Street shop and brought in their own people, totally disregarding previously negotiated union agreements. My source (union electrician) said I was lucky to get into the shop when I did (Friday Aug 16), because that was probably the only day he could have gotten me in.
BTW, there were over 800 "views" on my Webshots page (linked above) with the light rail car shots in the first week. It generated more interest than I had expected.
At least they're making a profit at all, that can't be said for many big corps at this time.
Well, looks like they've fallen off on NY state's "preferred builder" list, since they didn't get R-160 (gee, wonder why?). It'll be interesting to see how many M-7s they end up actually building, too. Of course, getting on the MTA's bad side is a great way to end up out of the transit biz...
The US transit biz, you mean.
I was in San Francisco on Saturday, and took some time to ride the PCC street cars on the F line. Can someone explain to me why single ended PCC cars like this one which has doors only on one side, and no motorman's position at the back has two trolley poles? Does it have a reverse position on the controller for backing up?
Tom
I don't know the answer, but I have a question: What city's livery is that PCC wearing?
Mark
That's the 1946 Brooklyn paint scheme. However, the car is not a Brooklyn car; San Francisco has been painting cars in a variety of schemes, no two alike AFAIK, with the intent of displaying as many possible paint schemes as they can. This particular car was SEPTA 2721 before going to San Francisco. It has standee windows, which the Brooklyn cars did not. But it's a nice tribute nonetheless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Brooklyn #1000 an exception (first PCC with standee windows, ordered 1935, delivered 1937).
I have seen most of the fleet since I have been out here for the past 18 months, and I agree that I don't think two are the same(maybe the 2 cars in MUNI colors? I don't remember if the paint schemes are different) (with the obvious exception of the Milan cars). It has always disappointed me that they didn't release these cars with numbering schemes in line with the numbers they had when they were in service(but i can understand why).
By the way...Todd, Thurston, Doug, Lou, Stef, et al...I know we have all glided to a perfect stop right under a breaker...and the embarrasement we have all felt...
but imagine that happening...on Market Street...in the middle of rush hour...seen it happen a number of times! The pros' ain't perfect either!
Jeremy
Here's a list of PCC's operated on the F line by Muni:
1007 - double-end - Red Arrow livery
1010 - double-end - blue & yellow 1930's Muni livery
1015 - double-end - Illinois Terminal livery
1040 - 1950's Muni livery
1050 - ex-SEPTA 2119 - 1950's Muni livery
1051 - ex-SEPTA 2123 - 1965-era Muni livery
1052 - ex-SEPTA 2110 - Los Angeles Railway livery
1053 - ex-SEPTA 2721 - Brooklyn & Queens Transit livery
1054 - ex-SEPTA 2121 - Philadelphia Rapid Transit livery
1055 - ex-SEPTA 2122 - Philadelphia Transportation Co. livery
1056 - ex-SEPTA 2113 - Kansas City Public Service livery
1057 - ex-SEPTA 2138 - Cincinnati Street Railway livery
1058 - ex-SEPTA 2124 - Chicago Transit Authority livery
1059 - ex-SEPTA 2099 - Boston Elevated Railway livery
1060 - ex-SEPTA 2715 - Public Service of New Jersey livery
1061 - ex-SEPTA 2116 - Pacific Electric livery
1062 - ex-SEPTA 2101 - Louisville Street Railway livery
1063 - ex-SEPTA 2096 - Baltimore Transit livery
1064 - ex-SEPTA 2133 - being rebuilt, not yet painted
Frank Hicks
It's a nice tribute to the former operators of PCC's. My only gripe is that when MUNI contacted us (BSM) for the Baltimore paint schemes, we sent them both the Green scheme (what 7407 wears) and the (yecch) BTC/NCL yellow. So they pick #2, but used the same yellow that's on the CSR car. It may say BTC on it, but it's wrong.
I know what you mean about colors. Muni originally painted their "Chicago" PCC in the earlier CTA colors of light green, orange and cream - except that they used something akin to neon green, and it really looked garish. So they switched to the later utilitarian CTA paint scheme.
Interestingly enough, the F-line cars that are painted for Muni, CTA, Illinois Terminal and Blackpool [the boat car] all use the same colors for green and cream. As a transit company, Muni was forced to make its color palette as small as possible to save money - and, as much as I would like to see a car in real Mercury green, Croyden cream and Swamp Holly orange cruising the streets of San Francisco, I can certainly see the logic behind their decision.
Frank Hicks
particularly sad as some of the needed colors are in use by nearby agencies. Some of us lobbied for DC Transit colors--exact shades in use by AC Transit--both schemes came from GM. And yes I too miss the 'classic' CTA of my youth.
Is that car in the CTA colors really painted Everglade green? At least I think that's what they called that shade back then.
You're right that the dark green used by CTA in its simplified PCC livery was called Everglade green, and no, the Muni F-line car painted for CTA is not actually the right shade. As far as I know, they use Muni green, which is a medium/dark green and passes fairly well for Everglade green. All cars on the F-line that are painted green use this exact same shade.
Frank Hicks
I don't see the Newark City Subway PCCs on you list.
It will be interesting to see what colors they put them in.
IMHO they should be painted in a Newark scheme.
I ment, which of the Newark colors, e.g. Public Service, Red/White/Blue, last (what #14 is in), etc.
That's you basic single ended PCC. The second pole is for ease of backing up ... into a yard or shop. It's all do from the front end, usually with someone in the back of the car or on the ground to assist. The colors were in use at the city the car came from.
At the Branford Trolley Museum we use a different type of single trolley pole assy. that permits us to swing the pole & put it under (it ends up a-mid-ships) the car (we use a 10' pole from the ground plus someone on the other side of the car holding onto the rope).
Backup controls are under the rear seat.
Not everywhere. Only properties that equipped their PCC's with backup controllers (Baltimore, DC, Shaker Rapid, Los Angeles, Kansas City to name a few) have them behind the rear seat. Philadelphia did not use backup controllers, and removed them from secondhand cars they bought.
MUNI did not, I believe (can't put my hands on the scource material a the moment, and I don't know if M-K installed them when they rebuilt the ex-Philly PCC's that MUNI bought.
MUNI did not have backup controllers -- they would just back up using the controls in the normal operator's position when doing a three-pointer at short-turn locations, in and out of carbarns, etc.
The ex-Philly cars in SF all had that front pole added by M-K when they were rebuilt.
The Newark car at Branford (if I'm not confusing cars) has controls under the rear seat. On Members Day it was operated from that position going back from Short Beach back to Yard Limits.
Car 27 at Branford does have back up controls in the rear of the car.
;-) Sparky
Footnote about 1001 at Branford.
The grandaddy PCC does not have a back up controller. Being a
Branford Instructor and Pilot on many runs of 1001, I think I've
logged from mileage in reverse on return trips, piloting others
on foward movements.
;-) Sparky
I'll vouch for that... now I just need you to pilot me enough to qualify me on it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Your better side is your reverse side Sparky!!
Nope. Ain't TOUCHING that one. Moo. :)
I know Lou, you're always taking pictures of sixes.
;-) Sparky
By any chance is that the wooden pole with the hook on one end? Eddie S. had me guide that hook along the overhead wire while he moved 1689 from a siding with no overhead back in 1980. A length of heavy duty cable ran from the hook to the car. Talk about touching something with a ten-foot-pole...
We have a new & improved 10' pole. It telescopes to what ever length you need.
BTW if you go down the line frontwards in the R-9 and other one-way cars there is also a frog & short piece of wire so you can "turn the pole" and carefully let her track back onto the main wire. I'm getting pritty good at this, the trick is knowing exactly where to stop the car so the pole stays on the wire when you start moving in the other direction.
Thurston, Steve was not talking about the telescoping fiber glass
pole, we use to rewire certain single direction cars. The pole
refered to by Steve B. inconjunction with Eddie S. was the jumper
cable used to move cars over unwired track. >G<
;-) Sparky
Sometimes called a "stinger". We have one at BSM, liberated in the 1950's from BTC and complete with a large splice in the cable, the result of the cable getting caught between the bumper of the car and the trailer that the car was just unloaded from. The trailer lit up TILT!. This was also in the 50's. Very useful item. Every streetcar system/museum should have one.
Dan, you have a stinger/bug/jumper/whatever from the 1950s
and it's still around??!! The average life of one of these things
seems to be a few years.
You betcha! It's as good as ever, as it gets inspected regularly. It really does have the splice that 5748 put in it in 1954. It was used to get the cars in & out of Edmondson Carhouse, which was closed and de-wired in spring '54. It then was used to get the collection in & out of the closed Cumberland St. Carhouse. It was then put away (most likely in Dick Lloyd's garage) until the power went on at Falls Road in 1970. It usually hangs on the track 3 side of the carhouse, in the front.
Everyone that has gone through the BSM School of Instruction is taught how to properly use it. At least 3 or 4 times a year somebody stalls on one of the door breakers. It's easier to get the stinger than push.
We don't run that many single-pole cars, so stalling on the
breaker is a non-event. But if a single-pole car does stall
there, we almost never bother with a stinger.
SHEET! Why didn't youse guys buy drill motor car R3 #41 and just be DONE with it? :) Extension cords ... damned Fire Inspector gonna GET your mojo. :)
Oh you mean the one a couple of us were using one day & neglected to notice a bare spot in a splice ... zap boom.
No matter how you say it, holding 600 volts in you hands is scary.
Feh. Puthies! 600 volts is mere GRID voltage for a transmitter. Now when you're pitching a chicken stick at 55kV (655 KW) trying to get your klystron tube to ignite once again, THEM is "watts for tots" ... 600? Feh. :)
Hey Selkirk,
I know exactly waht you mean!! Before my current assignment in the Navy I worked on Fire Control Radars for 8 years. I have seen arc's in side a transmitter cabinet that would would send most sane guys running. I remember trying to check grid voltage on the thyratron for our search radar with a High Voltage O'scope probe......ZAP!!! The damned arc jumped about a foot. Guess that was why I got to do it.. I was the lowest ranking one there!! After changing my drawers and my hair finally stopped standing up, we called in the tech-reps to fix the transmitter. By chicken stick what are you referring to?
Steve Loitsch
Heh. The "chicken stick" is a big wooden stick with a metal prod on the end connected to earth ground. You use it to work your way up the resistor ladder on the filter caps for the anode. You do want to make sure you've dischared that before you reach in to hoist a dead bottle out of the finger stock. Naturally the bleeder resistor ladder will OPEN somewhere in there and as you work your way up the stack, at some point you inevitably get past the open resistor and BANG! Ratatatatat!
Thunderstorms have NOTHING on a Comark or RCA UHF transmitter. Heh. But eventually you get bored with the light show and that's when you end up getting stupid. :)
During a derailment at Dekalb Ave. back in the early 80's I was instructed to respond to the scene. There was a Trainmaster there of questionable talents and for reasons unknown he ordered "Power Restored". The grids on the derailed R-32 started to get hot and without saying a word I took off down the Brighton tunnel. I watched the light show from a safe distance.
600 volts at a googleplex amps can do remarkable things. But I'll tell ya, when a transmitter that I worked was being worked on by one of our "know it all transmitter engineers," he went and tuned up the middle cavity of the klystron and PEAKED it at carrier. (Klystrons must be stagger-tuned and you DON'T peak the middle cavity at carrier frequency with the focus coils) The light show from the reject load exploding and shorting out the antenna on top of Illinois Mountain near Poughkeepsie could be seen for nearly twenty MILES. Bright oranges, blues, greens and whites until the substation blew. QUITE impressive and not limited to a few blocks. :)
Kevin, was that in 1979-80 or thereabouts? I seem to recall the incident.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1980. Ayup. We lit up five counties. One HELL of a light show. We had a junior engineer who did the night time transmitter shift (also took care of a few radio stations as well - WPDH was also on our tower). It kept arcing and sparking until we took out the Highland power substation. Once that melted, it all stopped. :)
We referred to our buddy as "Piddle, Diddle and Tweak, engineers at law." The guy was amazing. No matter how nicely you'd have everything setup, this fellow insisted (without authorization) that just a little touch up would make anything better. He had one hell of a night, that's for sure. Heh.
Thought I remembered it. We were living in Wappingers Falls at the time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Safely out of radiation range, nicely within fireworks viewing range. Heh. It took us four weeks to remove all the charred phosphor bronze and get that puppy back on the air again. I'm sure at least five of our audience truly missed seeing the Lone Ranger and Black Buffalo's FreezeFrame.
If you actually watched that station (there were about ten that actually admitted putting it on for a laugh) I anchored the "NewsChecks" on the hour in the evenings. That was one of those jobs where they fitted you with a broom so you could sweep the floor as you walked by. Assistant Chief Engineer, News Director and cameraman. And yeah, that big TV truck was ours also. I was in charge of that if it actually rolled. More powerful than an SD-40, able to leap curbs in a single bound. :)
And yeah, that big TV truck was ours also. I was in charge of that if it actually rolled. More powerful than an SD-40, able to leap curbs in a single bound. :)
Aha! You admit it! It was YOU that tried to park it on the steps of the Poughkeepsie Post Office right before Thanksgiving in 1980!!!!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I no had a class one ... we'd do news out of a crappy station wagon - we DID take the truck to Stitzel field for ballgames and we went somewhere to do some Tennis Games (Hud5on Valley Sports) ... don't remember the Post Office though. I've got some pictures of "Baby Huey" (that's what we called the truck - a 67 foot Gerstenschlager with a PAIR of Cummins diesels in it. The truck used to belong to ABC once upon a time. But if we wanted that Postal building, Baby Huey could have EASILY taken it out. Coulda pulled at least 16 train coaches too.
Unless things have changed, its remains are STILL at one of those turnoffs along Route 9W near Milton. A sound studio bought it after WFTI-54 folded ... Metro North could use it if they engines will turn over again. :)
Eddie even quipped that the jumper was "UL disapproved". Frankly, I wasn't too worried about getting zapped.
Say Steve,
You were looking to be elected to the "Sparky" brigade after a quick zap.
There are those of us at "Trolley Museums" that have and those
of us that will. >ZAP<
;-) Sparky
Is that what happened to you?:)
Steve,
Similar situation, where I was zapped, looking at something I
should not have been looking at. But I was flashed while reaching
up to stow the key. Was looking in opposite direction and zap.
We can talk about it in October.
;| ) Sparky
I know I didn't take my eyes off that hook as I guided it along the power line while Eddie nudged 1689 along.
IRM has a number of "stingers" that we use for various purposes, sometimes for moving cars. They're particularly useful in shop moves involving CTA #4146, which is a "Baldy" and has no poles.
If I remember correctly, folks at Seashore have a different nickname for a stinger: they call it a "bug."
IRM has two or three steeplecabs with permanent stinger attachments. They're essentially wire spools on the hoods with heavy insulated cables that can be played out to allow the locomotive to proceed a short ways off of electrified trackage. We have used them, but not often.
Also, here's a nifty trick. We were having problems with the light bulbs in our interurbans burning out, which is bad because they're old Street Railway light bulbs and you have to special-order them at a high price. This meant that we were a little leery about having the lights on when working in the barn. However, we figured out a solution: we put together a lightweight stinger (only capable of enough current to run the lights) with a resistor attached to it. This steps down the line voltage to 500v or so. Theoretically, 600v light bulbs running on 500v should last MUCH longer than normal - which means we can run the lights off the stinger as much as we want!
Frank Hicks
Thanks Frank,
Whether they are stingers, jumpers or bugs, they do have a purpose
at Trolley Museums.
Another question in relation to Streetcars. When vehicles are
parked, at Branford they are chocks and Seashore they are trigs.
The purpose is the same, even if by a different name. What is the
terminology used at other Museums?
IIRC, SEPTA PCC 2709 at Seashore, they are instructions to use the
switch iron to chock the car in case of emergency.
;-) Sparky
At BSM they are Chocks, and we never use them with streetcars. Buses and trackless trolleys (AKA Trolley Buses and now ETB's) yes, but the car house is as flat as the proverbial pancake and nothing rolls. Too many of us have memories of running over chocks, usually in the dark bowels of York Road Car House or Park Terminal, when some yo-yo put the chock under a rear wheel.
Dan,
I know exactly what you mean as to the location of chocks. In my
eighteen years at Branford, I've come to expect the unexpected as
to the location of chocks. [BTW, I'm a member of the splinter club
also. Shattered my share over the years, when placed under wheels
where not expected.] My philosphy, place under the right
wheels of the direction that the car will egress the car house.
At Branford, the most you'll do is fracture a chock, but at Seashore
the probability of putting a wheel set on the ground by riding over
a trig is immense. IMO.
;-) Sparky
...at Seashore the probability of putting a wheel set on the ground by riding over a trig is immense...
I second that...I have squashed a couple 'o trigs (who hasn't) but fortunately the wheel in question quickly became reacquainted with the rail it had been sitting on.
>>>"I have squashed a couple 'o trigs (who hasn't) but fortunately the wheel in question quickly became reacquainted with the rail it had been sitting on."<<<
I've splintered many a chock at Branford, but for some reason, as
yet have not squashed a trig. Maybe the fear of it not engaging
with the rail. And the Seashore trigs are larger and more commanding
in saying remove me, before you move the car.
But welcome to the splinter club. By the way are they chocks or trigs
at WRM?
;-) Sparky
I've had my share of trig problems. The one most vivid in my mind is about 10 years ago when someone had the smart idea to put THREE trigs under the car when it was stored. Two on the "correct" side (one in each direction, accessible to the aisle in the barn), and one on the "wrong" side (in a place barely accessible to the slightest of persons); it was on the trailing side of the first truck. So I didn't even know it was there until having moved about a carlength. KERPLUNK.
Was I wrong not to check every truck, in each direction? You bet. You only make that mistake once.
Then again, trigs can return the favor. I used one once to stop a runaway MP-54. It wasn't moving too fast, but it was heading downhill, and heading for a car much more fragile! THANK YOU MR. TRIG!
At IRM we use chocks, not trigs, and we go through a LOT of them. There's always a pile of 2x4 pieces cut to 3' lengths sitting outside the Car Shop - that's the "Chock Department," where you can always go to find a chock to replace the one you just split in two. We tend to go through those things at a rate of as much as one or two a week during peak season, but then again the equipment we're running is big enough (and the chocks small enough) that there's never much danger of derailment. Standard IRM practice is to always use chocks and never use hand brakes, since in our experience a hand brake can freeze up if you leave the car in place for 5-10 years. Now, if you want a REAL experience, try running over a STEEL chock. We've had that happen a couple of times, and it's pretty exciting.
Frank Hicks
I'll bet that "Little Joe" or one of the "Big Orange" South Shore cars could do a number on a steel chock.:)
I was surprised when I saw IRM's Little Joe up close. It didn't look as big or imposing as I thought it would. From what I read, those puppies packed some muscle. Now if Lionel could only put out a GL-5 loco in South Shore livery in Americal Flyer S gauge.....
"I was surprised when I saw IRM's Little Joe up close. It didn't look as big or imposing as I thought it would."
Well, the Joe is big enough. :-) We used to run the Joe once in a while for short-distance moves, just for the heck of it, but it has developed leaks in the air system. It still moves, but stopping it would be a different story. There has been talk of fixing it (which wouldn't be too hard), but the problem is that our overhead wire is not set up for pan operation, so the Joe couldn't go very far or very fast anyway and would not be useful.
Frank Hicks
BTW, South Shore purists will note that the 803 is not technically a "Little Joe", which was a Milwaukee Road nickname - it's actually an "800".
"Little Joe" was a nickname given to 20 locos built by GE in the late 40s which were ordered by the Soviet Union. Stalin was still in power; hence the "Little Joe" label. After the Berlin Blockade, all strategic shipments to the Soviet Union were banned, which included those 20 locos. GE went ahead and completed the order, then sold the locos at bargain prices. IIRC the South Shore bought three, the New Haven five, and the Milwaukee-St. Joseph got the rest. There was one catch: the locos were set up for 3300-volt AC operation with multiple unit controls, and were sold as is. The three South Shore locos had to be rewired for 1500-volt DC operation, plus they had their multiple-unit apparatus removed.
You're certainly close. The New Haven never had any "Little Joes," although the EP-4's (?) looked closer to them than anything else on the rails at the time. Three units went to the South Shore, five went to Paulista Railways in South America, and the remaining twelve went to the Chicago Milwaukee St. Paul & Pacific. The Milwaukee Road put two in passenger service and ten in freight service, although they all ended up pulling freight. Except for the voltage and gauge change, the South Shore's Joes remained somewhat original. The Milwaukee, however, added several tons of concrete to the roofs of theirs for added adhesion, and in later years blanked off the cab at one end of each unit to install J-R breakers there. There are three Joes surviving in North America: South Shore 802 at North East, Pennsylvania, South Shore 803 at IRM, and Milwaukee Road E70 in Deer Lodge, Montana. If you're interested in the Milwaukee electrification, I would HIGHLY recommend "The Milwaukee Electrics" by Noel T. Holley.
BTW, my mention of the 803 being an "800" and not a Joe referenced the fact that South Shore personnel never, ever called them Little Joes. That was a Milwaukee Road and fan nickname. More useless information you never really wanted to know! :-)
Frank Hicks
I stand corrected on the New Havens. Gilbert's 499 and 21573 NH Electrics are my favorite Flyer locos. I have one 21573 which can flat out scream. It can make a 9-car freight look like a train of R-10s rocketing along CPW - with dry axle journals on the cars!
And I'd like to get my hands around the neck of whoever decided that a scrap of plywood made a decent chock, especially when there was a regular set of chocks on the car... had to back 629 up to get it off, since there was no pulling it out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I believe they're called chocks at Halton as well. I've always referred to them as wheel blocks which is the term I picked up somewhere else since before my interest resumed in this hobby. I don't know if any museums call them wheel blocks.
With respect to driving over them, I've never done it myself (not having had the oppertunity to do so) but I've seen it happen twice at Halton first hand and many of their blocks bear the evidence of having the squeeze put on them previously...
Incidentally, the Canadian military refers to wheel blocks as chocks, too, from what I could see of their signage left over at a recently abandoned building.
-Robert King
Todd, I know the feeling. Besides, when I played the gremlin for
setting up cars for initial road tests, I used additional unexpected
chocks. I may not have been the qualifier, but I made sure the
student looked at all wheels before moving the car.
My rule of thumb, when I operate at Seashore, if the car has all
trigs present, I establish the presence of 4 trigs. Since they
can be on the outer corners or inboard on cars in Maine.
Frank, We are in a similar situation at Branford with chocks, small
enough to keep the car from rolling, but easy enough to splinter
instead of an oops. We go thru them on a regular basis and a box
of same is in the corner of one of the carhouse. That is if they
look for them. Operating procedure is place on end platform, when
removed, so they are there when parking car. When I can not find
on car, I look underneath and usually find next to trucks between
the ties.
As for a Steel Trig, there are some in Branfords Shop and it's
blasphemy to suggest, similar wooden instruments be used outside
the shop building.
C.K. I would have to review the situation in person, to see if
another solution would have been applicable.
Robert, thanks for the input from North of the border.
To all, thanks for the responses, it's been a good tread for
Streetcar operators, with a wide scope of data from different
museums.
Pardon, the delay in responding, but I became the Wednesday
Dispatcher at Branford for the second half of daily operations
in 2002. Hey Todd, I do miss having Gerry run the board on
Wednesday's in Maine. We always had good days.
;| ) Sparky
I really meant what I said about running over a chock.
Back in early 1963 I was in York Road Car House one February evening. A sophomore at Baltimore City College (Baltimore's oldest male-only high school), I used to wander up to York road and "hang out".
The dispatcher asked me to move a car from 2 bay and put it in 3. I walked over to 2, through the car house passageways. The car (don't remember the number) was towards the back of 3 track. Several of the barn cluster were out, making the back of the bay somewhat dark. I borded the car, turned the MG on, went off to close the air tanks, checked for chocks (normal BTC pratice was to chock #1 or #2 wheel on the front truck) and noticed none. Waited for the car to pump up, turned the RR switch (door balance( on and closed the doors. Released the car brakes, then released the handbrake and re-applied the car brake. Two rings of the bell, released brakes and took power. KA-BANG!
The rear of the car lifted up and banged down. Slammed the brakes, popped the doors open, bailed off the car and looked. Damn!! Some jerk had put the chock in front of the #7 wheel, on the rear truck. I kicked the splinkered remains of the chock across the bay. Got back on the car and pulled it out of 2 bay, through the spring switches and backed it into 3 bay, putting it on 2 track.
Fun & Games with chocks.
Some of us won't admit to be a member of the splinter club ;-)
I've done it with 6688. Crunch! The chock was reduced to a dust pile in a matter of seconds....
-Stef
For that big car the only place I've found it mattered (the wheels actually moved onto the chock) was in Barn #5. Fortunately most of the storage tracks are on the level so it's just a safety precaution (while she's stored & during compressor pump up [so she can't move while you're not in the car]).
[... At Branford, the most you'll do is fracture a chock, but at Seashore the probability of putting a wheel set on the ground by riding over a trig is immense. ...]
Sparky, you're forgetting about the guy who pushed the chock out of barn #3 until he finally put 4573 on the ground.
Back in my BERA days there were three operators known as "chock eaters". They pulled this trig much too often.
John:
I have another one for you...the bell systems. If i remember correctly when i went through the Branford training way back when, the bell signals are different at STM and Branford.
Jeremy
Jeremy,
I know exactly which signal your speaking of. Branford, to the best
of my knowledge is the only Trolley Museum to use four bells for
backing up. Every other location is three bells to move in reverse
from a standing position and when in motion, STOP IMMEDIATELY.
I've been frowned upon by the current Training Director, when
I forget myself and use three instead of four when guiding
a reverse move on the ground. More so during Annual Training.
;-) Sparky
During the last rulebook revision I almost changed it to 3 bells.
Most people feel that is logical, and in fact many, many years
ago that was the rule at Branford. I then learned the reason
why we adopted 4: because that's the way ConnCo did it!
Big Bugs at 239th RULE!!! 600 VDC at 2500 Amps leaves no room for the careless or stupid. CI Peter
Hey Steve,
It is called the jumper cable and yes it is still used to move
cars over unwired track. It's very hairy to say the least.
Common drill at most Trolley Museum.
;-) Sparky
MUNI has always had two trolley poles on single-ended cars. They use shoes on their trolley poles, which have a nasty habit of hanging on trolley wire frogs and ears when being "pushed". To reduce damage to the wire, the front pole allows the shoe to trail, as the standard rear pole's shoe does in regular operation.
The quadrant that the PCC's reverse lever goes into has a backup position on it. I don't remember if MUNI uses backup controllers, but I can tell you that backing a 46 foot car from the front is no picnic. I've done it with air cars (like Branford's 1001) and trying to look through those little rear windows from the front end is almost impossible. All-electrics aren't much better. Been there, done that, don't wanna do it again.
ALL of MUNI's PCC's have two poles. They are necessitates by making three-point "U-turns" at certain places along routes, i.e. "short-turn" routings. Used to be, when they operated on the surface years ago in downtown, many cars would short-turn at 11th & Market. Not sure where the short-turns might be nowadays...I think the places the PCC's operate, they are all loops anyway.
Will ex-NJT PCC 14 recieve a second pole and backup controller? Perhaps they shoulda just left the Pantograph on, and used the pan to provide backup power.
Good Question ... Interesting photo ... Was 14 in revenue service
or testing on the line at the time photo was taken? No front pole
as yet, but it's standard practice for all MUNI cars.
;-) Sparky
Newark 14 is not yet in regular service at Muni - the photos of it operating were taken on a test run. I'm also pretty sure that Muni hasn't begun modifying the 14 yet in any appreciable way.
Frank Hicks
Frank,
Thanks for the reply.
;-) Sparky
pans are unuseable on the F. the trolley wire is "shared as the HOT side for ETB or trolleycoaches. Thus the ETB Negative is close by--a pan would cause a dead short.
I just spent a week in Boston and I was wondering why the Green Line has B,C,D, and E branches but no A. Does anyone know?
Mark
The A-Watertown line is an abandoned route, check out the track map here
The last run on the (A)/Watertown line was June, 1969.
Now it makes sense. Why was the line abandoned? Low ridership?
Mark
lack of cars
MBTA couldn't scrounge up some extra cars in 33 years? That's very depressing.
Mark
The Type 8's have been in testing for close to 30 years, they were supposed to go on the Watertown line :-)
Question:
Why did the orange line need three tracks between Community College and Sullivan? Is it just a lay up track, or were extra Federal Dollars available?
AEM7
Here's the full story, courtesy of Scott Moore and George Chiasson, Jr.
Yesterday, before the Red Sox game, I was at Longwood on the D branch and a train came in and one of the roll signs was said A Watertown on it. It was up side down (the inside was facing out) and I took a picture but I don't have the cables here to hook up the digital to this computer and upload it. I believe it was a Type 7 car.
Yes in most of the Green Line cars on their some of the older Type 7 3600-3650 the A Watertown Line sign doees exist. The line ran along Comm Ave and went straight at Packards Corner while the Boston College turned and continued at Comm Ave.
I know this is a stupid question and I should know what the answer is ... but I'll ask it anyway cause all throughout my years in the "cerebral laundremat" , as somebody here so elegantly put it (that really is funny, btw! ;-) my teachers kept drilling the same mind-numbing phrase: "There's No Such Thing As A Dumb Question!"
SO here goes ... Will the A Watertown line ever be restored?
(I am now ducking from all the tomatoes being hurled at me)
Short answer: No.
The slightly longer answer:
Unlike the other Green Lines, this one ran in the middle of the regular street without its own right of way. In some areas the street wasn't even particularly wide. Back in the early 70, the track was all there but it had already been replaced by buses.
It must just have been a schedule nightmare; one annoying driver blocking the tracks and no trolleys went anywhere.
If ahuge demand for service had been there, I suppose MBTA could have tried to tunnel the A line under the street beyond its diversion from the B service. But evidently the demand is not there and it would not have been cost-effective.
It's a low rise neighborhood. Mostly densely packed houses; some small apartment buildings. The bus service that replaced the line is quite frequent (say, every 5 minutes or so), but that isn't the kind of demand that justifies tunneling.
It really was just a street trolley; one of thousands that died nationwide between 1950 and 1970.
Actually, the ROW reminds me of Bell Blvd in Bayside in terms of density.
Well where along the line would you consider a "low rise" neighborhood? In the early stages of Allston-Brighton along Brighton Ave? (much of that is Boston University student housing).
The #57 may be scheduled every 5 minutes, but speaking as someone who lived out near Brighton Center for many years, it sure wasn't very reliable. Frequent holes in service, and then the busses come bunched up. They run limited along Commonwealth Avenue, which helps some, but they could improve service considerably by adding "rush hour limited service" (somewhere further out). If I were going downtown (or to Copley Square), I would much rather go the other way to Newton Corner and take an express bus downtown. Much quicker!
Most of the trackage has been paved over. There are two spur tracks just on the Brighton Ave side of Packard's Corner to get dead trolleys out of the way (and i think for a while, they were storing Red Sox extra cars up there too), but west of that, there are now medians on Brighton Ave. Having dealt with the traffic of multiple attempts to pave and repave Washington Street, I shudder to think the effort would be involved to unearth them.
"Well where along the line would you consider a "low rise" neighborhood? In the early stages of Allston-Brighton along Brighton Ave? (much of that is Boston University student housing)."
Once you get past BU it's still a long way to Watertown. Very little of that is more than 3 stories tall; mostly it's 2.
I never claimed the 57 was reliable; only that its load didn't justify a tunnel. I should have said scheduled frequency.
Unfourtnately Jeremy the city of Boston and Watertown tore up the entre line including the tracks. Also the Oak Square power station was razied and a YMCA was built there. It would take alot to bring the Watertown Line back. The only track is the storage siding at Packards Corner used for BU home games still. Stevie please discuss
I read somewhere that the MBTA lost the Watertown arguement and must restore service. The forces that wanted it back won. The car situation is the major holdup, other than track renewal, so nothing may happen until the Type 8 problems are either cured or the whole Breda contract is voided and that goes to somebody's court.
On the LRV front, Breda gets a 10 - out of 100. Cleveland had beaucoup problems with their Breda LRV's, so many that they ran into a PCC shortage and had to lease/buy additional cars to keep Shaker service running. Breda may build good subway cars, but LRV's? Just say NO>
The track problems that the 8's seem to find are a problem that (1) competent equipment engineers should have been able to fix once the current problem was discovered and (2) also surfaced when the Boeings came, since there were derailments on track that PCC's had no problems.
Apparently whatever was done then fixed it for both the Boeings and the Type 7's, but Breda was either asleep or didn't bother to read the history.
I read somewhere that the MBTA lost the Watertown arguement and must restore service. The forces that wanted
it back won. The car situation is the major holdup, other than track renewal, so nothing may happen until the Type
8 problems are either cured or the whole Breda contract is voided and that goes to somebody's court.
Ummm . . . I believe that you have conflated developments on the Arborway line with the Watertown line. Just for the sake of clarification:
A court ruling has mandated that the MBTA return trolley service on the Arborway (E line) all the way out to Forest Hills. The "T" is now in the very early planning phases of returning this service.
The tracks for the Watertown line ("A" line) were torn up several years ago. There is zero possiblity that it will return.
Stuart
That's crazy. Why do they need the E-line out to Arborway. They need it about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. What they really need is decent Rapid Transit service in that part of Boston -- Roxbury, Dorchester, Southie, etc. I'm not sure how you would do it though, given that the present orange line had been built in the wrong place... half way between Washington St and S. Huntingdon!
AEM7
"That's crazy. Why do they need the E-line out to Arborway. They need it about as much as a fish needs a bicycle. What they really need is decent Rapid Transit service in that part of Boston -- Roxbury, Dorchester, Southie, etc"
And maybe restoring Arborway service is a step forward in accomplishing those goals, given available budgets.
The reason Arborway service stopped was not low ridership - it was because the new trolley cars introduced were too wide for operating in the street and coexisting with auto traffic.
Now, admittedly, this introduces an interesting problem. Will MBTA have to purchase narrower cars to do a two segment service (like the Red Line does - transfer to a trolley at the end of the ashmont line)? This isn't going to be easy.
I did notice when I was in Boston last week that there is a huge wedge-shaped area in the southern part of the city between the orange and red lines that isn't served by rapid transit. Why is this? Is there are need for something in this gap? If so what?
Mark
" did notice when I was in Boston last week that there is a huge wedge-shaped area in the southern part of the city between the orange and red lines that isn't served by rapid transit. Why is this?"
Could it possibly have something to do with the fact that this is the area of the city with the lowest income levels? Though there may be some mixup of cause and effect here; income levels may be low in part because people with jobs are less willing to live there.
Not every city is as good as NYC about providing reasonable transportation in areas of low income (not that I'm claiming that everything is perfect in NYC either, but at least NYC's areas of bad service don't seem to be blatantly discriminatory to any particular group).
Could it possibly have something to do with the fact that this is the area of the city with the lowest income levels? Though there may be some mixup of cause and effect here; income levels may be low in part because people with jobs are less willing to live there.
heh. You had to start the morning with a controversial post, huh?
People often cite that corridor as an area with poor rapid transit service. Some local property owners has gone as far as claiming that the Amtrak RoW through that area (the ex Boston & Providence, now the MBTA Readville Line) could be converted to rapid transit service and would be an equitable distribution of resources. Worse still, MBTA is being forced to study its feasibility.
Compared to many areas north of Boston, most of South Boston receives better rapid transit service than most of Northern Boston Metro Area. I say Metro Area because Boston is an asymmetrical city: Boston City Center is actually at practically the Northernmost limit of the City, across the river lies Cambridge, Somerville, Charlestown and Everett. Charlestown is a part of Boston, but all the other cities are independent boroughs. As much as Boston might trumpet its transit problems, Cambridge, Somerville and Everett all have more population density than the City of Boston (19,000-ish to 15,000-ish pax/sq mile versus 8,000-ish pax/sq mile, source: Boston.com).
I'm not sure of the history behind the Orange Line reconstruction and why it ended up in the wrong place; perhaps they were trying to replace the Washington St 'el' and the Arborway trolley with just one rapid transit line. It turned out to be a big mistake, leaving this huge pocket underserved and not even serving the E-line ridership effectively. But that is not reason to suggest that there are not more urgent needs in the Greater Boston Metro Area than restoring service to the slice between the Orange and the Red Line Ashmont branches.
People tend to think of "Rapid Transit Service" as equal to good service. It isn't. The Green Line B-branch is service of quite a different nature to the Red Line service. People will walk different distances for different kinds of service. A lot of it also depends on the quality of the feeder bus networks. The quality of bus feeder networks in Roxbury, compared to the Northern independent cities, are way better.
I have seen various reports from Somerville bitching about how Cambridge gets much better MBTA service. Don't want to dredge them up now, and don't want to sound like a service campaigner based in Somerville (I live there), but I think there are much better cases of transit investment than what is currently being discussed in South Boston. For instance, the service gap between the current Blue and Orange lines at the northern end (which goes through the cities of Everett and Somerville) is much larger, goes through much poorer neighbourhoods, and the area is in dire need of redevelopment. The place is virtually abandoned even though it is only 2-3 miles from Boston City Center.
AEM7
That's crazy. Why do they need the E-line out to Arborway. They need it about as much as a fish needs a bicycle.
A short synopsis of the story runs like this: The "T" cut back service on the E line one or two decades ago using an excuse which I have forgotten. Although they claimed that it was a "temporary" cutback, the reality was that they wanted to permanently cancel service because it is difficult to run trolleys on the same street as automobile traffic. The tracks in the street were paved over, the Forest Hills terminal started to disappear from the system maps, and they replaced the trolley with bus service. However, neighborhood activists in Jamacia Plain launched a suit against the T demanding that they restore trolley service. (Is this perhaps an unusual case of YIMBYism !?!?!) Over the last couple of decades, Jamacia Plain has gentrified significantly, and the residents have the wealth, power and knowledge to be able to work the legal system (unlike, say, the folks in Brighton, where the "A" used to pass).
After many years of legal wrangling, the neighborhood activists won their case, and a court mandated that the "T" restore the trolley service. Right now the "T" is holding public meetings reviewing aspects of building a modern, ADA-compliant trolley line down Centre Street in JP, so they are in the preliminary stages of planning the line. I do not know when the line is supposed to be finished.
What they
really need is decent Rapid Transit service in that part of Boston -- Roxbury, Dorchester, Southie, etc.
Those neighborhoods lack the kind of affluence & political clout present in JP. That's why the "T" has been able to pass off a bus line (the "Silver line") as "rapid transit" in those areas.
Actually, the #57 bus isn't that bad compared to other MBTA buses. There are many buses which are used by a lot more people have much worse bunching problems. Anyways by bringing back the streetcar, the bunching problem won't be solved.
For instance, I used to frequent a house that basically sits on the intersection of #57 and #66 buses (Union Sq., Allston). I would always take the #57 bus instead of the #66 bus because the #66 is far less reliable. In fact in most cases I end up walking up the street to B-line and take it instead, although the #57 bus is always faster than the B-line and if it weren't for the fact that I don't pay for the B-line but have to pay 75 cents for the bus, I would much rather take the #57 bus.
I've always hated the Green Line because it's not a real subway. I wouldn't mind the Green Line so much if they had more of a dedicated right of way. What runs down the middle of Comm Ave is *not* a dedicated right of way. Although automobiles cannot share the space with the trolleys, there are grade crossings at every street corner and street cars do not have priority unlike railroad cars. So in fact the situation is basically as bad as a bus.
There are three different types of streetcar rights of way -- (1) the A-line beyond Packards Corner and E-line beyond Brigham Circle type, where the trolley tracks run down the middle of the street, is paved over, and trolleys and autos share space. (2) the Comm Ave type, where the lanes are reserved but the place is littered by grade crossings. (3) the D-line type, which is basically a real rail right of way. Only type (3) can deliver real effective transit. Type (1) has been mostly phased out by the MBTA, since it really isn't any better than buses. Type (2) is not that much better either.
AEM7
I just spent a week in Boston...
Did you ride the PCC's from Ashmont to Mattapan and back? I rode them Monday afternoon and actually talked my wife into joining me in riding them again on Tuesday.
I sure did! It was a great ride. I rode on a PCC that was still painted in Green Line colors. Most of the others had the new yellow paint scheme. I got some nice photos of them, and even saw a nifty windowless PCC service car at Mattapan.
Mark
I rode on a PCC that was still painted in Green Line colors. Most of the others had the new yellow paint scheme.
Those were re-painted as a part of the PCC 40 years celebration. The yellow ones were restored MTA colors, the green ones were newly painted green because they were originally green line cars. Prior to the restoration, they were in the green line scheme, but with red color instead of green (if my memory serves me correctly).
AEM7
That reminds me of antoher question I have. When and how did Boston's MTA, immortalized in song, become the MBTA of today?
Mark
Around 1965. There are probably people on this board who can answer this question better than I can.
August 3, 1964.
In order to increase frequency of service without raising fares, it was determined that subsidies be provided by an expanded MTA. This resulted in the creation of the MBTA, which was empowered to operate public transportation in a 78 city and town district corresponding to the Boston SMSA of 1964.
I'm not sure if the Mattapan trolleys ever had a red stripe while in the green line scheme prior to the renovation. I was in Boston from 1998-2002, with the restoration beginning around 2000, and I only saw the green line scheme with green paint. -Nick
Origional Boston PCC paint scheme was traction orange below the windows, and cream above, with a red stripe between the two. Somewhere along the line, repaints lost the red stripe. When the line went "green," orange became green, and cream became grey, and later white. For whatever reason, repainting was not a top priority. As a really young kid, I would ride two car trains that had a green one and an orange one. Also, many green cars got replacement doors that were salvaged. So you'd see a green car with one orange door. Sometimes that door had the red stripe, sometimes it didn't. The current paint scheme at Mattapan is supposed to be the origional traction orange and cream, with the red stripe. It's a beautiful sight.
I do like the original paint scheme; thank you for the insights of Mattapan's past. -Nick
<>
Todd can correct me if I am wrong, but I would bet what you saw was a "Type 3" Snow Plow at Mattapan (probably numbered in the 5000's?). Those things are indestructable. We have a few at the Seashore Trolley Musem up in Boston that can not only handle the snow really well, but can tow pretty much ANYTHING!! I should know...i've towed half the yard around at one time or another.
Correct Jrmey it is a Type 3 #5123 and also and ex-dallas car now used as a wire car #3334 sitting at Mattapan for work equipment for now Steveie.
Yep, it was car #3334 that I saw, it was green and windowless, and the destination sign said "WIRE CAR." It was parked right in front of another snowplow, this one of an older-looking design, and covered in agind bright orange paint. There are two photos of this latter car on this very website:
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/mattapan/mbta5164.jpg
and
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/mattapan/mbta5164b.jpg
Mark
You are correct, Jeremy. Those are the "can do" cars of the fleet. They're "weatherPROFF"!
I have another Green Line question. I also saw some of the E trains had a red slash through the E on their destination signs. What does this mean? I've seen similar slashes on some of SEPTA's trackless trolley route numbers. They always puzzled me.
Mark
The red slash means "route ends before regular terminal."
Since the normal E terminal is Arborway, Heath cars have (had) the red slash. But with the longevity of this short turn terminal, the T has recently un-slashed it.
D line cars that short turn at Park Street or Government Center (vs. Lechmere) will have a red slash, as they will if they terminate at Reservoir on the Riverside branch.
I got my ticket for the trip in Saturday's mail. Included with the ticket was a notice that the pick-up point will now be the 36th St/ 4th ave stop on the R, Q, etc, NOT Church Ave on F as originally planned.
Don't know if the itinerary has changed as far as Smith/9th street photo op or not.
I have a feeling that the F line may be off the trip altogether.
The starting point for the March of Dimes trip was changed to
36th Street/Fourth Avenue [N/R/W] because of a G.O.,
which was not scheduled till after the excursion was planned.
The 'F' on that weekend will run in two segments. Jamaica 179~Jay Street, Boro Hall
and Church Avenue~Avenue X. There will be no service on the Smith Street Subway.
;-) Sparky
Sparky,
What is the revised itinerary?
Allan,
I have an email off to the trip coordinator and awaiting his reply.
He told me of the change of tentative start location two weeks ago,
but held off till it was official. That's all I know for now.
Maybe someone who's received the tickets and the change of start
point can chime in with same. With all the G.O.s, they may not have
the final itinerary at this time. But knowing the Project Manager,
it'll be a good trip. I'll update as I receive the data.
;-) Sparky
I've already gotten my ticket but there was no itinerary enclosed. Just a big note saying that the starting point had changed.
BMTman and myself arrived there at 10:30 and parked in the commuter lot. There was one of the NY&A green diesels with the screaming eagle and WTC mural on each side. Several old LIRR cars are on a track awaiting restoration. There was a RR snowplow on display as well as several steam locos in stages of restoration. They have a small bridge which is to be the centerpiece of a rebuilt turntable.
Several groups had tables selling shirts, magazines, etc. The LIRR police had an exhibit as well as the NY&A. There was a garden RR operating with a 3 car Acela train (at least one AE works). There was a hot air mattress thing in the shape of an engine for the youngsters to jump on.
Also on display was two cars in the old silver/orange LIRR livery that ran at the worlds fair. This is the amusement park size that kids sit on and are pulled by a gas engine. Unfortunately there was no engine and the track isn't completed.
Met Harry Beck, Bob Anderson and others there.......I'll let BMTman tell you the "rest of the story".
Not much to 'the rest of the story', except I ran into Bernie Ente, rail photographer extradinaire (and a NY&A fan). Also there was a rare appearance of Mr. Penny Bridge himself, Bill Russell! Great meeting him (I almost thought I met Jerry Garcia of the 'Dead' when met him).
New York and Atlantic Railway had their own table and it was manned by Joel Torres, their Marketing Director. He had some background/statistical data booklets for attendees as well as a photo display of various freight deliveries of the NY&A.
For me, the highpoint of the festival was the display of the 'Speeders' that belong to the NORCA (North-American Rail-Car Association). Speeders are one or two-manned gasoline-powered railcars that are no larger than a Volkswagen. They have one truck and tiny wheels. Rare nowadays, they were used by track work-gangs in the days prior to hi-rail vehicles. Most were sold off by mainline RRs in the 70's and 80's for very little money and are now in the hands of private railfans. The NORCA organization sponsors Speeder excursions (usually on un-used or under-utilized) mainline tracks with the authorization of the right-of-way's owner. It' an interesting group....for just under $3,000 you can own your own self-powered railcar and insure it for under $200 a year! I was totally intrigued by the Speeder display.
I've always wondered how fast those track speeders go. Did anyone mention it there? If you have some nice straight, level track I'd think those things could do over 30 mph, right?
The average Speeder goes 30 mph, but they CAN go 50 mph. However, since they run on a single truck you'd never seriously want to go that fast w/o risking a derailment. BTW, the cars are light enough for 2 or 3 guys to pick it up and put it on a trailer!
Thanks BMTman. Where can one obtain more info on NORCA? I wouldn't mind owning a Speeder myself.
Thanks,
Paul
NORCA has an official website: www.norcoa.com
BTW, the full name is NORCOA (got it wrong the first time -- it stands for North American Rail-Car Operators Assoication).
BTW, Paul, good to see you back at SubTalk!
It's www.NARCOA.org.
This could be a fun subway hobby on the weekends when some express tracks are unused.
This could be a fun subway hobby on the weekends when some express tracks are unused.
Only if the third rail is turned off and you have a phaser gun for the rats :-) Those little speeders are VERY close to the ground!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You could harness the rats and have them pull you all day for a few pieces of cheese.
For us subway buffs we'd have to have third rail shoe beams attached to the trucks ;-)
Thanks for the info BMTman. The site is very informative. I wonder if BERA have a speeder?
BTW - Thanks for the welcome. Spend too much time commuting between Brooklyn & Princeton NJ. Have plenty to read and catch up.
Paul
Branford does not have a speeder, and I understand that certain members of the museum will actively pursue any member who suggests that they obtain such and invite said member to be the guest of honor at a grand tar and feathering party (we've got a good supply of feathers, thanks to the farm there by 8W).
And no, I'm not a member of the posse :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wouldn't what to attend that party or want to be a member of that posse as well.
BTW - I like the speeder you recently obtain from your 2 day trip.
COOOOOOL !!!!!
Paul
Glad you enjoy... it's not exactly a speed demon, though... although it will run at highway speeds it's a lot happier at 40-45 mph... not sure what the RPMs are when it's wound out but that motor's screaming. But hey, it's my toy, and I'm having fun :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wonder if Branford would want to pick up one or two for maintance duties.....Would sure beat having to set trolley poles and powering up a vehicle we could just turn on the key and in the words of Jackie Gleason "Away We Go".
They have the "Shunter", it's a convertable version :-)
I have just finished putting up dozens of photos from the festival. You can view them on my website.
The Other Side of the Tracks- Over 1900 NYC Subway Photos
-Harry
Some of us at this site have a T-shirt of #271 with her special graphics ... and wash it carefully :-)
Thanks for sharing your photos.
Recently there was a thread about a trainset of abandoned/vandalized M-1's parked near the Calverton station.
Yesterday on the way back from the Riverhead RR Festival, BMTman and myself went over to the Calverton Station on Edwards Ave, north of the LIE. What we found was a one-track line with a passing track. On the passing track was a chain of track work cars for rail and tie replacements. Some of the ties and joints on the main track were marked with a light green paint leading us to believe that those were the items to be replaced. There was no M-1's in sight. I walked about 1/2 east to the beginning of the bend and saw past the LIE. It seemed to be a single track out to Riverhead.
Anyone know where these cars were moved ???????
They are at the yard just to the south of the Hillside facility, visible from the Babylon Branch tracks between the Main Line and St. Albans. The married pairs have been chopped into individual cars. They have been there for about a month now.
There was an interesting thread on the railroad.net LIRR forum about how they moved the cars from Calverton. Unfortunately, they seem to be having problems over at railroad.net so I can't get you the URL for that.
CG
Thanks for the update. Al and I assumed that the cars were taken to the scrapper and chopped up.
Crazy how they first put them all the way east in Calverton -- an area where they'd never even run (and can't) -- then only to haul them all the way west to Hillside again (their old home 'turf'). I guess it was all a matter of finding them some 'parking space'.
Hi, I am looking for information on the fastest way to travel the entire NYC subway system in order to break the world's record.. I read somewhere that the record is 22 hours and something, but I don't know if that is current. I am also looking for info on what sequence I should take the trains in to get the fastest travel time (I live in Seattle so I don't know the ins and outs of the system). That means taking into account rush hour, express trains, late night train restrictions, transferring between lines, etc. I would appreciate any and all information you can provide me on this subject. Thanks.
Take a look (and listen) at Harry Beck's February 2002 trip on the system.
He was not out to break any records but his insights may be helpful.
http://www.nycrail.com/misc/about_me.htm
You can contact him afterwards if you have any questions.
>>> I am also looking for info on what sequence I should take the trains in to get the fastest travel time (I live in Seattle so I don't know the ins and outs of the system). That means taking into account rush hour, express trains, late night train restrictions, transferring between lines, etc. <<<
You have just gotten to the art of the endeavor. Anyone can sit on various subway cars for about 24 hours, but selecting which ones at what times is the challenge. You should know there is no "official" record, because the system is always changing with GOs and revisions of routes, so it is like comparing the times of marathon runners in different races. There are too many variables to have one "official" record.
What you probably need is a system map, a set of timetables and some computer time to plan your optimum route before you get to New York.
Tom
If you've been lurking or posting here long enough, you've heard it all from all points-of-view about the V train. Here's my 2 cents:
(Please note, in this post I am talking about the southern end of V service, NOT QUEENS!...)
There is no need to radically alter the current service!
Keep the G and the F service pattern the same. Fix the Smith Street express signals and switches. Instead of terminating the V at 2nd Avenue, extend it to Church Av. via the Smith and 9th Street express.
I believe the 2 biggest reasons for the V terminating at 2nd Av. is lack of equipment (we need those trains heading back to Queens ASAP) and track/signal damage at Bergen. Extending the V to Church would result in a turnaround time only slightly longer than using 2nd Av. (only a few more stops, plus a decent express run), and many Brooklyn F riders would have express service. If we can find the stock, add couple more V trains and net-net, the headways wouldn't differ that much from the current schedule. Hell, a couple more jobs would be added to the pick list too. This simple solution would add ridership to the V on the Brooklyn end and help justify its existence.
Disclaimer: I live at an F stop with express capability, and am tired of watching empty 2nd Avenue bound V trains go by while I wait for a crowded F with no air conditioning!
By 2004, the Bergen interlocking should be back in action; and by then, more subway cars will be available in the fleet. That, and the reopening of the Manny B, should help.
Simple solution to the crowded F - take the V.
Simple solution to the crowded F - take the V.
Your soulution is not as simple as it looks......
HE WANTED TO GO TO BROOKLYN!!!!!
I stand corrected. Obviously, I can't read.........
problem is people hate the local and they're always in a rush so they always want the F and say to hell with the V
Hi all,
Hope this wasn't answered before, but, looking at Pete Dougherty's "Tracks" book, I don't see how the F will be turned at Ave. X. Is there a new switch?
Thanks,
Lou
The turnaround is in the yard leads to the Coney Island Yard.
The track diagram book is number 5,England South and London Underground,published in 1994.(green cover as Dave Pirman rightly stated)
ISBN 1898319073 £6.95
Quail Map Company,31 Lincoln Road,Exeter EX4 2DZ United Kingdom
phone/fax UK +44 (0)1392 430277 (don't forget we are +5 hours of you)
Rob
Hello, I personally would like to see another route added to the Flushing/Corona Line. Because on weekdays and on weekends the 7 Train is also crowded with passengers. And, the most confusing thing is that the 7 on peak periods on weekdays, sometimes passengers get confused on wheter the train is a local or an Express. Because the announcements by the conductrs are unclear and not understandable. I believe on weekday, that the TA add a new 11 Train that will run local between 42 Street-Times Suqare to Main Street-Flushing on weekdays only.Also, the 11 Train will only run from Main Street-Flushing to Queensboro Plaza, easying the crowd that comes from the N Train on weekends. And, the 7 trains will express service between Queensboro Plaza and main Street-Flushing.
It will not be any more obvious whether a train is an express or a local, if some of the signs post a 7 or others post an 11. This is an operational problem.
They used to have identra signs that indicated whether the sitting train was a local or an express at 5th Ave, Grand Central, Vernon-Jackson, Hunters Pt, Court House Sq and Queensboro Plaza. They also used to have markers on the front of the trains that conveyed the same information. The point is that this information was accurate and relied on only 1 person (the train operator) making sure that a switch was set in its proper posiition.
I have often wondered why express/local signs have never been installed at Times Sq - similar to the same signes that have been at Main St since before World War II.
I certainly agree with the sentiment that it's often hard to tell a 7 local from a 7 express, especially Queensbound boarding anywhere from 5th Avenue through Queensboro Plaza.
As a wish list item, it might be nice if the 7 could run express in both directions at all times. In reality, though, there isn't the need for 24/7 express service on the 7 line, and the cost of providing the additional infrastructure to handle the service would far outweigh the benefits.
I wouldn't have so many objections to the "7" express if they would modify it so it would stop at 74th St./Broadway. I think most SubTalkers would agree that Roosevelt Ave. is a major stopoff point, and having to wait for the local at Queensboro Plaza or 61st St. Woodside is somewhat inconvenient.
I kind of agree with you on this point. Though, it's really a double-edged sword.
The people at 74th/Broadway COULD use a transfer, that is if they're willing to put up with the people already crowding the train itself.
A rehab of the station is planned, unfortunately, it won't make it an express station.
I guess for as long as time goes on, the 74th St./Broadway station will remain a local station. It just seems whenever I need a Manhattan-bound "7" local, there are none in sight, and several Flushing-bound locals going in the other direction. Does the "7" favor a particular direction during any given point during the day? Guess too much work is involved in reconfiguring the tracks :o(
That would be a great idea!
Though, I believe it will be solved once all of the 'birds are replaced with the R62A sets, since they have bigger rollsigns. Ultimately, it will lie within the moterman/conductor if the train remains accurately signed.
Bite your tongue! The Redbirds are what give the "7" its New York flavor. I say put the R62A's back on the "1" and the "2" WHERE THEY BELONG! Give us back our Redbirds.
...my main man !!
U know i still cant get an answer as 2 Y the r -62 & that r 142 junk
cant B coupled together !!..............
ALL BIRDS ON DA' #7 !!!.........LOL !!
Well my friend, in reference to the R-62's and R-142's, you can't polish a turd lol! :o)
yea !!.........a BIG ............lol there !!
thankz !!
Um, the 2 has never had R-62A's. The 2 is home turf for the Redbirds as much as the 7 if not moreso.
ok, but soon the carbodys might fall off
Do you honestly think the MTA gives a damn about all this? Personally, good service and efficiency is all that counts to the MTA and that's all that matters. The 7 desparately needs things that can alert people about identifying a train as the sign system on the 'birds is simply too inefficient.
If anything, tell Corona Yards to bite their tongues. They're the reason the WF 'birds are worsely maintained than the ML's are.
Don't get me wrong, I love the 'birds, but it's time to bye-bye to them.
Then the issue is not the structural rigidity of the cars themselves, but the deferred maintenance they receive at the yards. Yes, I respect the fact that the signs are still illuminated on the ML cars, but it would seem to me as if the ML cars also have more rust and deterioration. I guess there are tradeoffs with everything, but as far as I'm concerned, the R-142 is a sorry ass replacement for the redbirds. Keep the redbirds rollin'!
What about the R142A? ;)
I do too love the redbirds, but I notice on the 7 that they shake a lot and violently on the run from 61/Woodside to Junction. I ponder why no one has taken suit yet from an accident that has sure happened.
I have no idea where you got 'structural rigidity', but deferred maintenance was what I was talking about in my previous post.
About the ML 'birds having more rust and deterioration? You're referring to the yards where I believe the R142A now take their place (I can't account for the R142, rather) These yards' have a great perception to maintenance in comparison to Corona. I think OnTheJuice can attest to that! ;-) I also believe that the scratchiti is much worse on the 7. I know it's an asthetic issue, but it does implicate the care Corona gives to the beloved R36's. BTW, doesn't the mainline have R36's as well??
GO REDBIRDS!!
Deferred maintenance is not the major issue it was 20 years ago. The Redbirds perform well for their age but cannot deliver the passenger comfort and safety riders deserve today. Additionally, there are no longer manufacturers directly supporting them.
You may not like the R142's, but any new car introduced in this decade would look like they do, and you should be willing to separate your aesthetic preferences (because that is they are) from what is needed to move people. Moreover, the R-142 is designed for ADA compliance; the R33 is not.
(Actually, a 1974 federal law mandated standards similar to ADA and applied to all new subway cars, buses, stations etc. built with federal funds. ADA superceded it, but you would have seen an R142 design nonetheless).
MTA is there to move people first and foremost. Nostalgia belongs in the Coney Island Yard, in the Transit Museum and on special railfan trips (where it can and should be enjoyed), not on day-to-day service.
Hey!! I like they way you think. This is what I've been trying to say earlier.
I see no need to further continue this thread. I guess on this note Salaam and I are the minority. Don't worry Ron, soon R-142 and 142A's will be everywhere, but if this is what NYC subway has mutated into thanks to ADA and poor design, it's a sorry commentary at best.
"I see no need to further continue this thread. I guess on this note Salaam and I are the minority"
Actually, you are in the majority (and I'm not sure Salaam's attitude is exactly the same as yours. He strikesme as more enlightened). Of people who can ride the subway anytime you want, anywhere you want, assuming you are not infirm or with a disability.
The minority are people who use the subway only with difficulty because they can't see well, hear well, walk well, etc. People with young children in tow. People who use walkers. People in wheelchairs for whom a Redbird is a problem.
There's a museum in Connecticutt where, if I am not mistaken, you can not only ride a Redbird, you can drive one, too.
Then again, maybe you just need a life...
That was a loaded comment! What exactly is your angle?
My angle was simply to point out that:
The real minority here are the people who want to, need to, but have been excluded from the subway due to its inability to admit them. That is changing, happily.
On the other hand, you are not excluded from the subway because of the new cars and renovated stations. So you have little to complain about.
People in wheelchairs for whom a Redbird is a problem.
And what problem would that be?
And what problem would that be?
The end doors aren't wide enough for them to pass betwen cars, of course!
There also isn't much room for a wheelchair to navigate, which could be rectified by putting in a folding seat in one corner (and losing a small section of heater).
Huh, how? I know the air conditioning units are roof-bases. (aren't they referred to as HVAC?)
Are the heaters roof-based as well?
Are the heaters roof-based as well?
The heating elements are under the seats.
There also isn't much room for a wheelchair to navigate,
That's not a problem for people in wheelchairs -- it's just a problem for the other passengers in the car who have to get around the wheelchairs. All NYC subway cars are equally wheelchair-accessible.
Technically, if the MTA ever had to do another short-order due to increased ridership, like the 50 trains bought for the 1939 World's Fair, I suppose they could make the trains' exteriors stainless steel, but design the exterior and interior looks (with minor ADA and A/C modifcations) to resemble a original Redbird, a Standard, an R-10, etc. Those cars could then be painted the proper colors -- stainless steel doesn't need painting, but there's no reason why it can't be done.
The only question would be how would 21st Century riders would handle those wicker seats (and how railfans would cope with a BMT standard with an electronic program that announces station stops and transfers...)
Only in your dreams, my friend....
Not expecting it to -- but certainly not on a regular replacement order of 500-1,000 cars. A limited order would at least not cost the MTA extra bucks for unnecessary paint expences (which will be down to virtually zero for the cars themselves once the R-32s and their painted interiors are taken out of service)
Why does there have to be an electronic program that announces station stops and transfers? I see nothing wrong with the current system, where the conductor makes the announcements. In a BMT Standard or an Arnine an electric annunciator would be just WRONG.
"Why does there have to be an electronic program that announces station stops and transfers? I see nothing wrong with the current system, where the conductor makes the announcements."
Maybe they're looking for greater consistency. All automatic announcement systems can be overridden. Look at Bombardier's cars on MBTA's Red Line.
"In a BMT Standard or an Arnine an electric annunciator would be just WRONG. "
How narrow-minded of you. There are plenty of exhibits in museums where an electronic voice tells you a story. Nothing wrong with installing an electronic system (camouflaged, of course) on an old R-9 as part of a Transit Museum exhibit or to help on a railfan trip.
My impression as a passenger is that the mainline R-33's on the 5 (formerly on the 2) are in much better cosmetic condition than the R-36's on the 7. The R-33's on the 4 are maintained at a different place and they're not doing as well.
Errrrrmmmmm.... how would that reduce crowding?
I remember when the R-142 delievery started to begin, the huge amount of disliking that was becoming of the R-142, eventhough it had a lot of advanced technology into it, that surpassed the redbird in most ways, and how our expectations were extremely low. Now we like the R-142 (mostly the R-142A but...) and we're seeing the R-142 as the template, the level setter for the future rollstock of the future fleet of the MTA. So do people still hold a grude against the R-142 ..... yes. Have people changed their views on the R-142.....yes. So now that we're that we've seen the abilities of the R-142/A were you expecting more of less? Would you still have a redbird over an R-142? If so why?
It's really the advancing of the entire thing. Sure, we will miss those 'birds, but I'm sure people will miss the R142/A when it's scrapped a million years from now.
Personally, I'm impressed with the efforts both Bombardier and Kawasaki have placed into their products and I like the result.
"So do people still hold a grude against the R-142 ..... yes."
And in my opinion, they always will. The R-142(a) will be seen by railfanatics not for their merits (or faults), but for what they replaced.
"Would you still have a redbird over an R-142? If so why?"
It would have to be an R-142(a) in pretty bad shape for me to prefer a RedBird. And I think that regular commuters (as in those who are not railfans, who probably make up 99.99% of the ridership), would agree. Never forget for whom these cars were purchased.
I no longer commute on the Lexington on a daily basis. And I believe that there is a place for the RedBirds -- in a museum. I am glad to leave the Lexington in the good hands of the future generation,
MATT-2AV
I've always liked the 142As and never held a grudge against them. I like the sounds they make during acceleration and braking :D
What I don't like is how the R160s are going to be modelled after their A division counter parts.
"What I don't like is how the R160s are going to be modelled after their A division counter parts."
I totally agree. Where's the variety?!
R40M wrote:
I totally agree. Where's the variety?!
Where was the variety in the 1980s, when the R62s and R68s debuted?
Where was the variety in all postwar equipment up through the R38s?
Why does a 2002 BMW (not BMW 2002) have more in common with a 2002 Hyundai than a 1968 BMW?
It's called evolution, and there's no reason in this day and age that the A- and B-division stock should evolve along different lines, stylistically or technologically.
Mark
Where was the variety in the 1980s, when the R62s and R68s debuted?
All I want are the 'L' forward facing seats such as on the 44/46 and 68/As. Wasn't it said somewhere that the 160s would be based on the 143 so it would have bench seating? It would be nice if the exteriors were different as well, wouldn't it? Like you said, 2002 BMWs and Hyundais have more in common... but they're still noticibly different.
Who said that????
The R-160 is to be modeled after the R-143, which is very much a Subdivision "B" subway car.
David
Why doesn't anyone respond to my thread concerning the R142 and R142A?? It isn't good enough for Subtalkers?? :: Weeping::
"Why doesn't anyone respond to my thread concerning the R142 and R142A??"
After reading those posts, we just assumed that you worked for Kawasaki.
MATT-2AV
I don't work for Kawasaki. Do you blame me for being Appaled at the quality of the R142's?
Oops, that's what I meant. Been out of it lately.
Bombardier and Kawasaki introduced 'New Train Technology' to the system and it was well overtime. Kawasaki seems to have had better results...Bombardier R142s chronic TTs. I learned most of my 'subway tech' on the Redbirds and I am truly grateful for the opportunity. I think TA has learned an important lesson...re:R160s...and i look forward to the future. CI Peter remains OnTheJuice and InTheHole.
Passengers on the Lake Shore Limited Boston section have long complained about the fact that glaciers move faster than this train. After a little research and calculation, I have found a few interesting things:
1) The Boston & Albany used to be completely double-tracked and had four tracks between Framingham and Boston.
2) The Boston section, at a 5+ hour running time, seems to sell out pretty regularly, particularly to Boston.
3) 40% of the Lake Shore's customers from Boston are headed to Upstate New York.
Running on a separate single track with passing sidings optimized for passenger service, a normal passenger train would make the trip from Albany to North Station in 4h 11min making all #448/449 stops or to South Station in 4h 6min. A tilt-equipped train can make the trip to North Station in 3h 35m and to South Station in 3h 30m. This is assuming a 90MPH top speed for the conventional train (110MPH saves one minute) and a 110MPH tilting train (125MPH saves about 5-8 minutes more).
At those speeds and non-extortionary pricing, I believe four trains each way plus 448/449 could work. What do you think?
2) The Boston section, at a 5+ hour running time, seems to sell out pretty regularly, particularly to Boston.
3) 40% of the Lake Shore's customers from Boston are headed to Upstate New York.
Okay, now I am curious. Where do you get these information from? It is true that #449 sells out pretty regularly. I didn't know that 40% of customers from BOS are heading for upstate New York -- I would be interested to see (and use) any documented evidence of this! (i.e. beyond a conductor friend saying "about two-fifths are going Upstate").
Running on a separate single track with passing sidings optimized for passenger service, a normal passenger train would make the trip from Albany to North Station in 4h 11min
Errrr, how do you get to North Station? That Grand Junction Spur takes about 40 mins at present to traverse (some say it takes up to two hours for the present empty stock moves to take place.)
This is assuming a 90MPH top speed for the conventional train (110MPH saves one minute) and a 110MPH tilting train (125MPH saves about 5-8 minutes more).
Sounds shaky. The Worcester-Boston section is pretty fast already, the track speed there is pretty much 79mph all the way except in a few places. The Pittsfield-Springfield section is the real problem. Besides, there are better places to spend the money than on a BOS-BUF corridor.
It could probably work, given infrastructure financing. But why? Mass Pike already serves that corridor. It would make more sense and be more beneficial to build high speed rail where there isn't a duplicating turnpike, or if the turnpike is congested.
AEM7
I finally found the site that I had been using for this kind of info:
CSX employee timetables
I was afraid they might have removed it past 9-11.
AEM7
That's my main site thai I use for the track layouts of their line, although they do not include speeds here.
"Errrr, how do you get to North Station? That Grand Junction Spur takes about 40 mins at present to traverse (some say it takes up to two hours for the present empty stock moves to take place.)"
There is one track currently maintained for 10MPH. There is room for one more track along the entire length of the track. At 2.3 miles and a maximum speed of 25-30MPH due to numerous grade crossings, the trip should take no more than 15 minutes via the Grand Junction spur.
"Sounds shaky. The Worcester-Boston section is pretty fast already, the track speed there is pretty much 79mph all the way except in a few places. The Pittsfield-Springfield section is the real problem. Besides, there are better places to spend the money than on a BOS-BUF corridor."
According to both the former Conrail and current CSX speed restrictions and employee timietables, passenger trains are not allowed to go faster than 60MPH on any portion of the Boston-Albany stretch. They might, but they are technically not allowed to, since Worcester-Boston seems to be Class 3 track, judging from freight speeds.
There are always better places to spend money, but this improvement may not require as much expense as others. The right-of-way from the B&A days probably is still part of the railroad and could be used for the additional track. A diesel hauled consist with tilting cars could be used on the service and more capacity can be offered in a timely fashion. Greyhound also does well in this corridor, but some corridors get overlooked. Boston-Albany is also part of the 130 largest city pair markets for all modes.
I judged the speed and travel times for the line by using the maximum speed through a curve for certain trains. This can be found at www.acmaglev.com and is under the news section, IIRC. Chapter 3 of the EIS contains this info. Then I estimated that a train traveled at 80% of the speed allowed in a segment to account for acceleration and deceleration. Finally, I assume that all trains would use two locomotives in their consist.
I'll look up the Boston-Upstate New York info for you.
5 hours? You can do it in like 2 by car....
Yup, if you go along the Mass Pike and drive at 105mph all the way. Of course you can do it in two hours, South Station to Smallbany.
AEM7
Downtown to Downtown is 168 miles. 148 of them on I-90. It's not quite 2 hours but probably 2:30 - 2:45.
You've never driven on the Mass pike, I take it? :)
80 - 95+mph isn't 'possible', it's slightly faster than everyone else...
Want to know why Amtrak can't compete on LD? Go drive out west some day - west of NJ, highway speeds rarely drop below 70, and in some places, it's very easy to maintain 80 - 90 for hours at a time. Just set the cruise control and go.
When one can drive Flagstaff -> NY in 3 days for 1/2 the cost of a train, why take the train? (and yes, I've done Flagstaff to NY in 3 days, and that was actually quite conservative, my friend and I went Flagstaff to Oklahoma City in one day, Ok city to Dayton the next, then Dayton to NY. Had we not stopped for motels, we could have lopped a day off, easy)
Too bad we can't prove who posted this, or we could nail you for speeding.
AEM7
There you go again talking out of your ass. Who cares how fast you can drive to Flagstaff. As for the LD train facts, they have better load factors than non-NEC short hauls and better cost-recovery ratios. That does not spell "can't compete". The Lake Shore Ltd and Maple Leaf are the ONLY trains that run across NYS filled up. Go read the NARP report on specific train evaluations.
hmmmm..........is it a ""roll sign"" & or a plaque or something like that ?? 2 me it looks like some kind of removable poster ...!...??
......would love da' answer
i wonder if it is a roll sign .......!!
..........lol.?
it's a rollsign (behind plastic) that requires a special key to turn
ahhhhhhhh!! so it is a crank roll sign !! thankz !!
or is it done with a electric motor ??
it's hand cranked, but unlike older signs (like in redbirds), you can't do it unless you have a special key to insert.
W8 St on the Brighton (Upper Level) there was someone taking photos of 'Q' trains heading southbound. It was around 3-4 PM on 8.24.02. Was it anyone from here? Just curious.
Anthony
I got this in my E-Mail. I think its a COOL program. Let me know what you guys think. If you cant read the link let me know. I will E-Mail you myself.
Anthony
http://software.palm.com/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?amp;sectionId=0&catalog=0&jid=CXFC4F4B71CF4A23483D9517243B651B&platformId=1&productId=33592&productType=2&siteId=291&zsortParams=true
Does anybody know what was wrong with the PATCO line today?
My dad just got home and said that he sat on the Ben Franklin Bridge for about an hour or so. Apparantly they told the passengers it was signal problems at Ferry Ave. Does anybody else have any information about this, what caused it. I was thinking that, since the PATCO is ATO, it would make it harder to disobey a broken signal, did ATO or anything play a role in the Problem?
Here's a thread that might liven things up.
Given that the leadership of the TWU has threatened to strike before, and has in fact carried out a strike where legal (the privates), and given that political conflicts within the TWU may make a strike (or wildcat actions) more likely, should the MTA be making strike preparations?
You may recall my emergency network: use supervisors and overtime to run the Flushing Line to Queensboro and Express to Shea and Downtown Flushing, the 2/3 as far as the Hub at 149th and 3rd in the Bronx and Grand Army Plaza in Brooklyn, the 4/5 from Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn to Yankee Stadium, the 1/9 from 137 to South Ferry, and the #6 from 3rd Avenue to Brooklyn Bridge.
You'd tell people they had to get that far to get a subway, by private bus, car service, private van, long walk, bike, something. It would be hell, but it might prevent lots of people from losing a week's pay many of whom couldn't afford it.
So, should the MTA and NYCDOT be having meetings right now to make this work?
Or even hire us as scabs...I'll take the beatings.
YES YES! I want to drive a subway!!!! Oh please pick me! :)
Pick me. I can pilot Pelham!! ;-)
If the job were THAT easy, perhaps. But rest assured, the first time a wiglet hits a homeball, the railroad WILL lay down. Only question would be do they have administrative cups for them to pee in? :)
(If the job were THAT easy, perhaps.)
I'm not talking about hiring people. Many if not most of NYCTs managers have come up through the ranks. There are not nearly enough of them to run the system, or anything close to it. But there are probably enough of them to run the truncated system I described 18 hours per day, given enough OT.
It wouldn't be much, but it would be better than nothing. So should the TA be prepared to do this, or just expect that nothing will happen? If the latter, people will be pretty upset if something does happen.
I'd see the TA doing what ANY political subdivision would do in a republican administration. Go to court, get a restraining order, wring their hands about those nasty "union types" screwing everything up and shutting it down entirely to demonstrate how a "bunch of thugs broke the law" ... and the state will be happy to collect that "double pay penalty for every day of a strike" under the Taylor law.
Maybe Paturkey will then grandstand like Ronnie and threaten to FIRE everybody if they don't come back to work immediately. It's QUITE clear now that he has "national ambitions" ... that is if Rudy doesn't replace Dick Cheney.
I remember all too well the strike of 1980. We were out for eleven days and if I remember correctly it was during the Easter season so the impact of the strike wasn't as severe as it could have been. And also, I think the Union settled for the same rate hike offered before the strike. And yes, that loss of twenty-two days pay is still stuck in my craw.
If you cheese off the politicos, they DO have a way of catching up with ya. And like ripping the wings off insects, they have this demented SMILE on their faces when they do it. Since 1980 though, there's PLENTY of stupid rules that have been added and memos to support them. Sometimes the very best way is to use the rules themselves. I know *I* wouldn't want to leave a terminal unless I checked EVERY snow block. :)
I think that strike took place under a Dimwitocrat administration, thank you!!!
If the subways shut down the city loses money and will most likely shut down. The question is will private bus company unions also honor the strike, leaving absolutely no mass transit in the city.
And how will LIRR and LI Bus handle it. If LI Bus shuts down, it wouldn't be pretty for me. But from what I've heard LI Bus and LIRR will run...to the city line.
The state should have learned from what happened over in DOT, give the union what they want and they'll save money. After 9/11, the sour economy, NYC can't afford a transit strike.
"give the union what they want and they'll save money"
You've got a lot to learn about negotiating. Not a statement about unions either. You can replace "the union" in the above sentence with "the management" and it's equally wrong.
CG
I was just trying to state how much NYC can't afford a transit strike. Whatever it costs to avoid one is worth it.
... NYC can't afford a transit strike. Whatever it costs to avoid one is worth it.
Reminds me of the logic used by a certain British Prime Minister who felt it was cheaper to acquiesce to Hitler's demands for some territory, thinking that would prevent another war.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And "whatever it costs" is going to be a RUDE awakening in New York once the glad-handing and the electioneering is over and done with. The state is BANKRUPT. But of course, this won't be widely known until after midnight on November 5th. Then the bargaining issues will end up being reducing the cutbacks with zero percent increments for the next two years or better. Mark my words, I know folks in the division of the budget and other fiscal state units. All the pork this year has wiped out the budget. And then some. Revenues are under budget by 17 to 20 percent so far and reports for the second quarter are just coming in. The economy's been downhill for the third quarter so they're sheeting pickles here in Smallbany.
But until November 5th, "party hearty" ... bad news isn't something you do in an election year. Until it's over. But the TRUTH is out there, it's merely absent until after November 5th. :(
The question is will private bus company unions also honor the strike, leaving absolutely no mass transit in the city.
Why should they?? - the MTA workers didn't honor their strike
(The question is will private bus company unions also honor the strike, leaving absolutely no mass transit in the city. Why should they?? - the MTA workers didn't honor their strike.)
It's the same union. And my guess is that they did honor the strike. Doesn't the TA have buses idle when school is out? If so, it could have run TA buses on the private routes, but I don't think it did so.
Similarly, my guess it the privates will continue to run and get paid, but there would be no subway to connect to.
BTW, December 15 to 31 is probably the worst time for the TWU to strike -- it doesn't hurt everyone else enough. Just a two week holiday, during a time when little work gets done anyway. Christmas Shopping? It would still get done in the city, just in different places, or after the strike ends.
Thevery first TA idea was to run extra buses near route affected by the Private Lines strike and that idea was killed very quickly.
I don't expect the privates to replace TA busses on TA routes - what I meant was that the TA workers didn't walk off the job in sympathy so why should the private bus drivers lose even more pay by walking off their jobs a second time.
They really do not have to. Just not add routes during a strike like the other bus companies will. In the case of a strike those express buses will crawl.
Now getting Metro North and the LIRR not to add service would be a coup.
As stated before it was the settlements AFTER the strike that had higher than average increases. It took 8 years to break even. OTOH you had the benefits of the Quill strike just like I have the benefit of yours.
I have to find that analysis again.
It was agreed sometime back to keep politics out of our posts, but as a thick headed dimmwitocrat you had to break the bond. No politics. It gets people mad. OK?
Fred old buddy ... you keep thinking that I'm a democrap. I can assure you that they don't live very long up here. I'm a card carrying member of the "New Scotland First" party, otherwise I'm unaffiliated. Allow *ANY* party to retain its incumbency too long and the graft, corruption, and arrogance takes hold. Politically, I'm an independent. I vote for both of the majors from time to time, but I prefer to vote for politicians that blow off both of them and go for the endorsements of minor parties.
Like diapers on a little one, yada yada ... in my own book though, whoever is IN needs to be OUT. I'm all for term limits and ONE is usually enough for anybody. Who lowered YOUR taxes? NOBODY. Who's looking out for YOU? NOBODY. NOBODY for President. ":)
OK, I'll buy that Selkirk old friend. But I haven't reached critical mass in the cynical department yet. A few more Enron crooks and those bastard CEO's might just push me over the edge.
So you could line 'em up in the 4th Ave. tunnel and bowl 'em over with the Museum Triplex train, right?:)
Rrrrrrriiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhtttttttt Steve!!!! You've got me really wired well. You read my mind.
Heh. If you lived in New York and WORKED in the capitol, watching these swine from BOTH sides of the aisle do their sidewalk acts, you'd quickly learn why you're not allowed to carry guns in government office buildings. :)
But yeah, in my own case, I've worked with these critters. Up close, the smell of sausage being made is just astounding.
SCREW YOUR NEW SCOTLANDIAN OCCUPATION!
ACADIA FOREVER!
Maine is nice when the mosquitos aren't carrying off small children. I once worked WBLM on Cadillac Mountain from loverly Bah Hahbah ... But if you can find the town of New Scotland, be happy to fix you up some swill. :)
Oh, I thought you were talking about Nova Scotia.
Heh. Nah, "New Scotland First" is a local political party (town, village) ... it's a party I'm PROUD to be a member of because the candidates firmly believe in the history of our town (trains, booze and courtesans even during prohibition) and it's quite a COLORFUL history. When our Mayor Ed became Town Supervisor, he ran against an entrenched republican, a snotnosed son of a democrat and he kicked both their butts, winning the election by a landslide.
Politics is local, and our representatives here are as honest as the day is long. Having your mayor or town supervisor over for a beer is nice. Try THAT in NYC. Our STATE and FEDERAL representatives are morons ... but we'll do something about that in another month or two. And Supervisor Ed knows how to charge up an SD60, and a rolling brake test. :)
I think if they had enough C/Rs they might with supervisors and scabs.
The first Redbird drag is what would kill the whole thing IMO.
There really are not that many supervisors available as someone has to man the towers. Even on a dumbed down system you need to be able to bypass trains. Also many supervisors came from Stations not RTO and have never operated or been a conductor.
If they were REALLY serious garbage pick up would be a problem in 2-3 days and I would love to see Labor Relations on the pickup moving the cans.
As for everything else you likely could do something, if you make it free why do you need station agents for the duration. You can also run trains past their inspection date for a day or two by redefining the frequency and making it up with OT once the strike is over. Running a service will certainly make much of the membership reconsider.
I actually drew up a B division strike schedule as an exercise.
The real threat is that out of 30+K employees one of them or even a retiree will do something criminal which will result in injury or just make it impossible to run a system.
Yep, you're looking at it from a logical, operations viewpoint. In INDUSTRY, what you suggest would be logical. However, as we all know the MTA is a political beast and therefore I would expect that in the event of a strike, it'll just shut down. The politicos will stampede for the TV cameras decrying the "evil unions" and wringing their hands, beating their chests and literally doing nothing other than press conferences on the court house steps.
The "leadership" is MUCH better off if everything shuts down, I don't see "scabbing" as a viable option. And your own words indicate WHY it wouldn't be. "Public Safety" ... a strike would only make the politicians look good and frankly, I'd expect they'd be chomping at the bit. And I say this expecting that the strike would be AFTER election day.
If the strike were to be BEFORE election day, it'd be a double-dog dare for them and they'd just lock you guys out to make it as bad as possible. That would then give them the justifications they'd need to swing the axe. Beating up unions is good political food. Sorry, but that's da reality ...
And your own words indicate WHY it wouldn't be. "Public Safety" ... a strike would only make the politicians look good and frankly, I'd expect they'd be chomping at the bit. And I say this expecting that the strike would be AFTER election day.
I have a feeling the words "Malbone Street" would become widely known by every media-type and pro-labour group in the city should they attempt to run with Scabs.
Cheers,
PJ Dougherty
Publisher, Tracks of the NYC Subway
VERSION 3.2 Now Available!
I've seen Maibone St. It's a dinky alley that doesn't even come close to the station that was named after it. So, I ask:
Was Empire Blvd known as Malbone St before? Otherwise, there's no way you could call Prospect Park Maibone St. (It couldn't have done so in the past, it would have cut right through Ebbets field and the botanic gardens.
Was Empire Blvd known as Malbone St before?
Yes, after the wreck the street was renamed so it wouldn't make poeple think of the crash.
PRECISELY ... and that's why Qtraindash ain't getting handles. NOR BMWDoobiedoo ... OR Clayton. :)
Hell, even Traindude is gonna avoid the tracks if this were to happen, and he knows where the breakers are. Heh.
Bandsaws humming cutting up shoe paddle stock.
It would be a PLEASURE to have some of the people here that complain about slow trains operate.
If there's a strike, I won't be able to get to skool. YAY!
Yes , I know , that's incredibly shallow. Science Sucks , don't go there, warn the little ones.
Bloomie is smart enough to make the schools use staggered hours. Now you can still party if you go to Catholic school.
Heh. Nah, I can see them wrapping it, then being VERY excited about the acceleration curve. So much so that they let go of the controller, dump and then realize how long a recharge takes. And of course, operating "at speed" because they've read how 143's can go to the conductor board before you take a full serve, and it'll still stop at the 8 car marker. :)
So between conductors staring down a homeball when the train stops (instead of the zebras) and all that climbing down to reset after putting two cars past red over red and I'd say the complaining about slow trains would stop pretty quickly. But I'd willingly come down to the city to watch this ... Heh.
>> and all that climbing down to reset after putting two cars past red over red and
This step is only needed if you are putting in a new block.
Heh. I forgot the newer cars don't require you going on the ground. You actually had to pull your tripper back on the Arnines. :)
Don't forget the Call-On. By that time everybody and his grandmother knows you screwed up.
Heh. Betcha the wunderkind will solve the problem by throwing the reverser. :)
Did you add 8th ave tower? If you look closely it is on the 38st yard map.
Also that is not a no clearance sign on ver 3.1. School car published the wrong image, they recolored a c/r board. I almost got thrown out of the simulator for mentioning it to the TSS. Look at a fouling point sign, that is correct direction of the stripes.
Not that I think it exists here but nervous leadership (or ambitious) gets talked into it by very ambitious lower level tools or reactionary managers.
Breaking a strike that way could make you into the next Rudy or the next Beame.
Also it would scare the bejesus out of the rest of the pattern bargaining unions as everything is going to the arbitrators.
I'm hoping you guys get a raise and better conditions. The real problem from above this year will be money, but I'm sure rearrangements of reality based on some wisdom could be accomplished. I know in some of my years with the state that there was no money, they were willing to fix some inequities in titles and a little more slack in lieu of cash. Ya never know, here's hoping there's something good offered that will avert the need for a walkout.
By the way, is this tentative strike schedule BEFORE or AFTER November 5th? That would have a BIG influence on the outcome. If it were to happen BEFORE the 5th of November, then it helps against Golisano, who's been calling Georgie a "pantywaist" and if it happens after November 5th, then the truth as to the amount of money available (not) for raises will be "out there" ahead of the strike.
The strike date therefore would determine the outcome, though the outcome for TWU would be about the same either way. It's more a question of whether or not we find out how little money the state has to play with before or after the election. Sorry for the political angle, but that is the "prime mover" as to what happens here.
Contract expires 12/15/02, so call it 6 weeks after elections and 10 days before Christmas.
YIPE! *THANKS* for putting a date on it, NEW YEARS is the contract date *I* remember, but I also recall that sucker MOVED over the years, so I didn't know WHEN anymore.
You guys are *SO* screwed ... sorry for putting it that way, but I'm formerly TWU myself even if local 100 *PHARKED* me personally. I've been out of there for more than 30 years myself, so nothing personal. But seriously, there's a *MAJOR* shafting coming across the board at every level and nuance of "SG-##" titles ... early retirements aside from those making their nut THIS year are not going to cut it.
Having worked civil service and surviving "contracts" from Rocky to Malcolm Da Wilz to Harey Carey to Padre Mario to da Paturkey, I've seen the state swing from one extreme to the other. This one's going to be a Harey Carey year ... we're talking Don Corleone here. If the TWU has any brains (I've seen nothing but shortages since Mike Quill) they'll negotiate for JOB SECURITY ... lean times ahead in the state budget. Mayor Mike at least didn't have to sugar coat the manure like Paturkey's turkeys given that Georgie boy is UP and Bloomberg can sit on his posterior for three years. You already got a taste of reality from Mayor Mike. Once the elections are over at the *STATE* level, reality will be dispensed.
As a recent PEF Local 331 member myself, I mean no harm in dispensing the TRUTH, but the state is frigging BANKRUPT. The rest of us will be told after the recoronation of the "two term Governor" about to BS his way into blowing off the TERM LIMITS he SWORE to, and ON a bible. Hypocrite.
That will be an issue. Job security is breathing down the neck of several titles like station cleaners (who have the WEB workers staring at them) and station agents with the MVMs and the long term attack the MTA is starting. RTO is doomed in the long run too (OPTO and ZPTO) but at least will will get eased out over at least one or two decades and no one will likely get fired.
My demands look like they will not be taken to the tableas they are not with the ND program. So no 4 day work week in return for the productivity increase and a bunch of similiar things.
4 day is definitely not in the cards any more than "telecommuting was for 'desktop captains'" years ago ... 37.50 with 0.75 or bust. Sorry to be so negative, but I've SEEN the numbers and they suck. I've seen the "contingency plans" and they "REALLY suck." Those who do NOT accept cash in excess of the $75.00 per annum of government employee graft will be sneezing through their pants in short order. No joke.
I *genuinely* hope TWU has an ear to the rails, that "light at the end of the tunnel" really *is* a 12-9 ...
When it comes to the strike date, would a strike by any more illegal before the contract expires than after? If you are threatening to break the law by denying the public an essential service, then a little piece of paper doesn't matter much.
That's why I say that if the TWU ever wins a strike, there is no point in having a contract, because it wouldn't matter. It would be strike whenever anyone feels like it, forever.
A strike when you have no contract breaks the Taylor Law. A strike when you are under a contract is much more serious. If there was a strike DURING a contract that would be much more undermining.
The flip side is if there was never a strike as a possibility we would be without a contract forever.
Another side: most of my crew has been given a 'last chance' on a decent job and we're all valuable employees. WE WANT NO STRIKE and have been threatend IF we attempt to go to work. What does the Taylor Law bring us??? Help????? TWU 100 is led by....you know who by now....TWU Central does not want any part of this. WE WILL raise 'Olde Glory' and FIGHT!!!!
"The Doorway to all freedoms...is framed with Muskets." Charleton Heston
(The flip side is if there was never a strike as a possibility we would be without a contract forever.)
Well here is an interesting question -- how long should a contract be? I say one year. If the city is going broke, it might need givebacks after a year. But if the City is booming, the TWU will want to get raises while it can, rather than be locked into a recession deal that lasts until -- the next recession.
Economic conditions change every year, and labor negotiators get paid every year. I don't know who it is that wants these three year deals. Bad for eveyone.
Good for labor negoitators and TWU 100 executive board...bad for us working schlubs.
Would you really want to go thru this every year?
Roger Toussaint will force a strike irregardless of the membership or publics interests. Is Roger an Iraqi 'fifth columnist?'
It is sort of funny. One of the demands that made everyone look cross eyed was that RTO supervisors actually come from RTO operating titles. Many newer TD's, Supt.s and Deputys have never operated. Many of the older TD's could not climb on a train in the yard or cut a non-SMEE train.
Managers don't make OT, scab boy...
Had another thought about keeping the TA running. When's DARIUS getting out? :)
An exercise in futility, I can assure you. IF roger and his band of merry men decide to strike, I sincerely doubt that there will be any serious effort mounted to restore service until the strike is settled. There simply are not enough supervisors and managers to do the work needed. Of course you can run a few trains - and a few will continue to run - as rail polishers. However, each day more and more cars will reach the limit where they can no longer run due to an overdue inspection. Same with tracks, signals tunnel lighting etc. Dust off the Taylor law and put fresh linens in the cell. I think 'he' may just do the unthinkable.
On another matter Dude, I have never heard if you are going to join us on the weekend of October 12-13 when a bunch of us out of town railfans invade the Big Apple. I hope we can finally touch base.
I'd really love to, Fred. Hope circumstances permit me to do so. it's long overdue.
Well in fairness to us here at TA, we deserve a good contract, where everyone here can be happy with. Lot of us here work hard, and deserve the pay and benefits to go with the hard work the tens of thousands of guys and ladies do down here to keep this city moving, especially after the exceptional job we all did TOGETHER in keep this city running after September 11th. But at the same time striking and losing 2 days pay for every one day of strike is kind of rough on the bank account and family, and I do have people I have to think about at home here. Everyone should sit down first and have a long, good talk about a reasonable contract, and save the strike talk for if or when the time comes for that, which will hopefully be never.
Well said. :-)
THANKYOU FOR THE VOICE OF SANITY. CI Peter
(Well in fairness to us here at TA, we deserve a good contract, where everyone here can be happy with.)
What is fairness? I'd bet that the average private sector worker in New York has had his or her income go DOWN in the past year or two. Those are the people who would have to pay for a raise. Inflation is just 1.2 percent -- most of the inflation next year will probably be due to public sector fiscal problems (fare increase, etc). With the big pension benefit increase, and the soaring cost of health benefits, the total compensation of TA workers will be going way up, even if cash pay doesn't.
This gets back to what economists call the "money illusion" issue. We'll probably get a strike before we get zero to one percent raises, even if overall inflation is low and NY area housing prices start to fall (likely). BUT, if inflation was five percent, the TWU would gladly sign on for four percent, even though they would come out behind. They just wouldn't KNOW they were coming out behind. Therefore, some economists say, you need a little bit of inflation to mute conflict.
A government works project is held up by a strike in Warren County, New Jersey because outside labor is brought in at a rate far below the fourty dollar an hour union members get. I'm just feeling the economic loss of my private industry employment...what I got in return was five decent days of work with the opportunity to do overtime work. NO perks...just a decent job with decent hours with a semi decent salary based not upon my experience BUT I would not go to strike over based upon the raises I received in private industry. This is Civil Service Mister jones. CI Peter
Housing and energy are up up up. Low mortgage rates help the former and the Iraq war drum the second.
>>With the big pension benefit increase, and the soaring cost of health benefits, the total compensation of TA workers will be going way up, even if cash pay doesn't. >>
OK now the COST to the TA of the benefit plan may go up but that is not an increased benefit. When the stock market boomed and they did not have to make big contributions because of the actuarial assumptions that was not a benefit decrease. If you mean 25/55 that was years ago.
As for the health benefits they saved moeny flipping between a defined benefit and a defined contribution plan and when they flipped back they used a regular type CPI avoiding the fact that health costs beat the local CPI. NOW on your health benefits that statement may be true but not on mine.
(OK now the COST to the TA of the benefit plan may go up but that is not an increased benefit. When the stock market boomed and they did not have to make big contributions because of the actuarial assumptions that was not a benefit decrease.)
When the stock market boomed they took advantage and cut contributions. That was a big no no, but only part of the story. The state legislature also passed a big, retroactive cost of living adjustment for all those folks who got those big Lindsay pensions 30 years ago, cashed in, and left the state. Some had their pension payments rise by 50 percent. There will be a cost of living increase from now on, something that was neither worked for nor bargained for.
They also elimnated employee contributions for those in Tier 4 with more than then years in. And, they said it would all be free since stocks were high and going higher. Having handed out even more goodies to the oldies, watch the newbies get screwed even worse than the old newbies. Can you say Tier V?
(As for the health benefits they saved moeny flipping between a defined benefit and a defined contribution plan and when they
flipped back they used a regular type CPI avoiding the fact that health costs beat the local CPI. NOW on your health benefits
that statement may be true but not on mine. )
If you have a defined contribution plan, you are in trouble, but if it is defined benefit (which I think the TA is) then the TA is in trouble. You've had double digit rises in health care costs again, with the medio-industrial complex sticking it to the City and State to make up for private sector and Medicare cuts.
Just an observation ... while TA workers deserve a fair deal, managerial capitulation to every union demand during flush times is a major reason why many of the airlines are in bad financial condition today.
(Just an observation ... while TA workers deserve a fair deal, managerial capitulation to every union demand during flush times is
a major reason why many of the airlines are in bad financial condition today. )
There is a big difference between the private and public sectors. Businesses throw goodies at new hires, who they need to compete for, while shafting long time loyal employees any way they can, figuring they'll stick around anyway. Anywhere you have strong unions, however, you have multi-tier contracts that severely disadvantage those hired later -- especially since 1980. The benefits for those cashing in and moving away get better every boom, while the deal for those with less seniority and new hires gets worse in every set of recession givebacks.
Result -- high labor costs, but wages so low that the city can't hire cops, teachers, etc -- BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. No wonder so many workers are sullen. No one is willing to point out that those profiting at their expense aren't the shareholders (there aren't any) its the pensioners, those with seniority, those who cashed in and moved out years ago.
Thank you, it takes something like 10 years for a ticket agent at an airline to make top pay. Top pay is something like double the starting pay too. And if you are at Jet Blue or Spirt do you realy think they will be around in 10 years or not figured out how to axe you by then. The other tactic is to profile employees they expect never to last that long in title.
But you can't argue that I got an increase because some oldtimer got a sweet COLA deal.
As for the health trust it was a defined contribution plan, the the 'enhanced benefit' was a defined benefit there was a surplus contributions lapsed. Now we are back to a DC plan but the contribution rate is not so great and without the surplus to earn interest it is a mess. And because of MANDATED changes the costs are higher, like domestic partner benfits and contraception.
Of course this is the 'HBT funding for Dummies version' but it is close enough to what is going on for a general discussion.
You have to remember that the inflation rate in the northeast runs higher than the national rate. While the national inflation rate may be 1.2% (which I think is understated) the inflation rate in the northeast is in the area of 4% per year. If we receive a raise, it will be in the neighborhood of 2% per year. We'll be behind the eight ball again.
(You have to remember that the inflation rate in the northeast runs higher than the national rate. While the national inflation rate
may be 1.2% (which I think is understated) the inflation rate in the northeast is in the area of 4% per year.)
Well, I looked up the detailed CPI report on the BLS website, and sure enough the inflation rate is 2.2 percent in the NY-NJ Metro area, well above the U.S. average for June '01 to June '02 (1.5 percent). This is almost entirely due to an overheated housing market 4.3 percent in New York vs. 2.0 percent in the U.S.
The housing market is out of whack, just like in 1989. You remember what happened next. Non-regulated rents fell. The sale price of single family homes slipped, and fell by 1/3 relative to inflation. Landlords of regulated buildings, in some cases, kicked back some of their permitted rents (they have to raise them on the books or they don't get to increase them as much later). And co-op and condos absolutely crashed. So don't expect this disparity to continue. It can't, because people and businesses will leave until prices are once again competitive.
It's true that the housing market is overpriced in NY-NJ. Rents in NYC are through the roof as well. IIRC landlords have been granted permission to raise the rents by 8% in NYC. This is on top of a hefty increase the rent gudelines board granted the last time. It never ends. However, as long as interest rates are low and mortgages can be had for around 6%, the housing market will not collapse the way it did in the late 80's.
I'm not naive enough to think that the MTA is going to offer us raises like the UFT received this year. I know that times are tough all over. I'm just hoping that we get enough of a raise to keep my head above water.
The housing market is out of whack, just like in 1989. You remember what happened next. Non-regulated rents fell. The sale price of single family homes slipped, and fell by 1/3 relative to inflation. Landlords of regulated buildings, in some cases, kicked back some of their permitted rents (they have to raise them on the books or they don't get to increase them as much later). And co-op and condos absolutely crashed. So don't expect this disparity to continue. It can't, because people and businesses will leave until prices are once again competitive.
It's entirely possible that the local real estate market is due for a fall. I certainly know what that's like - the condominium I own and now rent out in Connecticut is maybe worth half of what I paid for it in 1988 (and far less than the outstanding mortgage balance). Even so, my guess is that we won't be seeing any huge crash anytime soon, as unlike in the 1980's there hasn't been excessive overbuilding. Land shortages and high construction costs may actually prove a blessing in disguise.
There are quite a number of people that would take a 0% raise in return for a secure HBT, no more work rule changes, relaxed sick and other discipline policy. Few of these tihngs would cost money even the HBT could be put back in the black for a relatively small amount.
As for a .25 fare increase, if you use mass transit it comes to something like 125 a year, most peoples rent goes up more than that.
If they use transit constantly they can recoup most of that by going to monthly/weekly/fun passes which most people have yet to discover.
(There are quite a number of people that would take a 0% raise in return for a secure HBT, no more work rule changes, relaxed sick and other discipline policy. Few of these tihngs would cost money even the HBT could be put back in the black for a relatively small amount.)
Would you give up five of six sick days per year, in exchange for the equivalent value in a raise? The sick leave seems to be generating a lot of bitterness. When you give out twelve sick days and have an average of 11 taken, clearly lots of people are taking "vacation" when they are not sick. Yet the TA's attempt to crack down ends up hassling the good workers who are honest.
A few years ago I looked into this when compiling economic data on employee benefits, and found out that most private companies had ditched sick leave -- and the cat and mouse game that goes with it -- and rolled it, vacation, and a few optional holidays into "Personal Time Off." Like most public employees, TA workers get a lot of time off anyway, but not a lot of pay, compared with the private sector. Ditching five or six sick days, which honest employees aren't using anyway, could fund a raise. Sick leave balances could be coverted to PTO a two hours sick to one hour PTO, since employees with 10+ years experience get 1/2 their sick bank in cash now.
(As for a .25 fare increase, if you use mass transit it comes to something like 125 a year, most peoples rent goes up more than
that. If they use transit constantly they can recoup most of that by going to monthly/weekly/fun passes which most people have yet to
discover.)
I'd rather raise the fare and cover more of the cost than let the system go down. With 11 for 10, a $2.00 fare is really $1.80 or so. Adjusted for inflation, that would put the fare back where it was in 1994 -- if you aren't benefitting by all the additional free transfers and unlimted rides. Then again, adjusted for inflation the 1904 fare was $1.00 in today's money.
A few years ago I looked into this when compiling economic data on employee benefits, and found out that most private companies had ditched sick leave -- and the cat and mouse game that goes with it -- and rolled it, vacation, and a few optional holidays into "Personal Time Off." Like most public employees, TA workers get a lot of time off anyway, but not a lot of pay, compared with the private sector.
That's what my (private sector) employer did last year. As far as I can tell, the PTO idea is quite popular and works well for most people. I certainly like it.
Would you give up five of six sick days per year, in exchange for the equivalent value in a raise? The sick leave seems to be generating a lot of bitterness. When you give out twelve sick days and have an average of 11 taken, clearly lots of people are taking "vacation" when they are not sick. Yet the TA's attempt to crack down ends up hassling the good workers who are honest.
A few years ago I looked into this when compiling economic data on employee benefits, and found out that most private companies had ditched sick leave -- and the cat and mouse game that goes with it -- and rolled it, vacation, and a few optional holidays into "Personal Time Off." Like most public employees, TA workers get a lot of time off anyway, but not a lot of pay, compared with the private sector. Ditching five or six sick days, which honest employees aren't using anyway, could fund a raise.
Yes, a lot of people do use sick time when they aren't really sick; this is a result of what we have to do in order to get a day off. As an example: I go on vacation 9/29, but needed to buy plane tickets for the day before. To get the AVA for 9/28, I have to put in the request no more than 30 days in advance. I was at the Crew Office to put in this request at midnight today and found the line to be six T/Os deep (the Crew Office is only allowed to give 12 AVAs for T/Os for Saturdays in the B Div). In order to facilitate my being in Midtown at midnight, I also took today as an AVA. So, to be assured of one day in September, I had to plan it 60 days in advance. Now, for most things, you don't usually get 60 days notice - when I closed on my re-finance, I had two days notice and a lawyer at my house until 1:30am (Yes, 1:30 in the morning). I called in sick the next day - would you have wanted me to operate on 3 hours sleep?
Most of the time, I do use my sick time for being sick - doctor's lines and all; occasionally, it's because something happened and I can't get a day off. the lead time on getting an AVA is why I would never take a week's vacation in days - I know too many people who end up getting paid for the days because they could never take them off.
Sick leave balances could be coverted to PTO a two hours sick to one hour PTO, since employees with 10+ years experience get 1/2 their sick bank in cash now.
Yeah, but that's upon retirement AND providing you have at least half of your possible sick time "banked". After 25 years, you could have a possible maximum of 300 sick days saved; if you actually have less than 150 banked, you don't get anything for your sick time.
(Sick leave balances could be coverted to PTO a two hours sick to one hour PTO, since employees with 10+ years experience get 1/2 their sick bank in cash now.)
(Yeah, but that's upon retirement AND providing you have at least half of your possible sick time "banked". After 25 years, you
could have a possible maximum of 300 sick days saved; if you actually have less than 150 banked, you don't get anything for
your sick time.)
Unless you have a very different deal than I do, if you have more than 10 years in you get paid 50 percent of your sick leave balance when you retire. If you have 600 hours you get paid for 300. If you have 60 hours you get paid for 30.
You do have to wait until you retire to get the money, just as you can cash in rolled over vacation time. I think putting half your sick leave balance in a combined vacation-sick personal time off bank would be a good deal. Certainly for me -- I've got almost 900 hours of sick leave in the can, and unless I end up in the hospital for months for some reason it does me no good.
There is MUCHO corruption on managements side of this in the crew office.
People that get their forms in 1 minute into the filing period when no one else is in sight get routinely rejected at the last minute 29 days later. One of the suggestions was to open up the AVA, VIDs up to public view and also to allow straight swap a certain number of times a year. If you want to take off and you get a person to do it and it will not cost the TA OT, why not as long as they do not overdo it and if the person is a no show both lose the priviledge.
Roger is NOT talking strike. I would say the members are more than anyone else.
I never said otherwise. I only said that the TA would not try to restore service during a strike.
First, I'm an ex TWU member. Second, the higher your salary goes, the higher the supervisors salary will go. If theirs goes up, managerial salaries have to go up too in accordance withthe managerial compensation policy. I hope you guys get 20%, 20% and 20% at least.
Getting back to my original post, I really think it'll be tough going. Roger Toussaint has not really endeared himself nor has he put himself in a descent negotiating position. In reality,, local 100 is out on a limb without any support from the TA or the AFL-CIO. That's not a real great bargaining position.
In reality, all the TA has to do is make your medical coverage contributory like it is for managers and supervisors. If they do, New directions will be heading in a newer direction - out.
and/or put the dissidents on release time like they are accused in Metro North.
Or in the case of RTO put all the productivity changes on the table giving the members 2/3 of the savings in return for a harder day. Few people will walk away from 15-20% and it will split everyone on age lines.
Unca Steve: IF I was told I had to put in ten, twenty or even thirty bucks a week for medical, I'd gladly do it. When you are younger and think you have your health and feel invincible...sometimes something serious is overlooked. The only good thing my former employer gave me was a very good medical plan to keep me working to make him money...when I went for something minor the battery of tests came up with a problem undisclosed for years. A major change in my life...a new outlook and direction...and a new job which my former employer must regret every day with every service call I'm not there to take care of. Take some of the union whiners and throw them out to the 'private industry dogs' for a while. Eight hours a day, seven hours and five minutes of work, weekends off, daytime hours, comprehensive medical, a retirement plan, occasional overtime and a true word of thanks from my supervisors and Deputy Superintendent. Cannot ask for much more...waiting for next MS1 exam. CI Peter
Theory was that hundreds of new MS1s would have experience to do inspections and repairs...hundreds of trucks were refurbished for 'change out'...while we stand by on strike lines. I'm too old to go through a strike...Transit and TWU have common goals which Olde Roger wants to overlook and TWU Central wants no part of. I love my new work and want to keep my employment...'upstairs' need 'a paddlin.' CI Peter
(There simply are not enough supervisors and managers to do the work needed. Of course you can run a few trains. However, each day more and more cars will reach the limit where they can no longer run due to an overdue inspection. Same with tracks, signals tunnel lighting etc.)
It couldn't go on for long, but I doubt a stike would go on more than a week or two. The longer it goes on, the more damage both to the TWU and to the public. However, I'd be surprised if there weren't enough qualified managers to ride the limited network I described with perhaps 30 stations, 50 to 60 trains, and a few master towers.
If you could run a service the strike would be over in 72 hours.
What you describe is not enough service it will encourage last chopper out of Saigon.
Another calculation you forgot is that many older Supervisors with RTO experience really could not pass the medical (their hearing is shot).
Would you increase the frequency on these lines? 24hr service? Are you counting enough people for putins and layups.
Would you be prepared for the political fallout? You seem to favor IRT neighborhoods. Who is getting what is ALWAYS part of the formula.
Ye Olde CED supervisors are out of the plan....several hundred new SM1s with 'experience' are expected to 'foot the bill' for car inspection and maintainance. Read into this: 'SpeakEnglish SpeakEnglish you fff'in dummy when you BIE the trainset....I'm working Undercar along with the crew and you dump the trainset without warning!!!!' Strike will last three days based upon Bombardier MTBF
As I get to talk to more TA employees than most people here it is sort of funny.
Each depatment sees themselves as the critcial link in keeping the system going.
True. All departments are linked...we share a common goal to provide service. Car Equipment Department is a target of Roger Toussaint...denying proper representation. CTAs maintain facilities,
Track maintains rail, Signals maintains..., RTO operates trains, Division C operates the work cars and refuse collection, Revenue maintains and operates toll collection...and so forth.....BUT, Car Equipment Department inspects and maintains all trainsets. No CED...no active trains...no Revenue...no nothing. We are the 'orphan child' until the flak hits the fan and we do not want to be forced into a Roger Toussaint strike...and do you think the executive board members will live in poverty if a strike occurs??? I have three months to straighten out my bills and put a little money away.
You complained about Ainsley. They demote him, then you complain he is targeted and you are not represented.
And what kind of a union we have to represent us!!! Pull the plug, shut the trains down as they fall from service . I HATE UNIONS, espcially AFL/CIO/CPUSA. Put them all in M-259 and sing the 'Internationale' as it sinks unaided. TA has a darn good bunch of crews in CED...and I have never made a remark about Ainsley, ever.
You have complained about a certain CED officer that sounded very much like AS.
My complaints about the executive board are general in nature...old timers say New Directions is better than the last regime. I dislike union politics, cannot stand the monkeybusiness and shennanigans, just want to keep on doing my work. As one of my buddies pointed out, no more Dot.com billboards...tens of thousands unemployed...so we 'tekkies' have decent work 'changing oil and brakes.' One old timer pointed out I was hired as a 'mechanic' but you should have heard him when he found out my education and background!!! TA hired most of us for our outside field experience...we were thrown into work with little experience BUT the ability to look at something and say, 'Something is amiss.' Problem is that what is 'amiss' is major and in vendors hands.
CED needs technical capable representation on the TWU union board...not general mechanics or CTAs converted into Car Inspectors from a promotional program. This is the twenty first century...New Tech will RULE...we have R142s/142As, R143s, soon R160s and then R170s. No more 'gimmick lights' or jumpers...DVMs, scopes and laptops/Palms for service. CI Peter
If I was a TA supervisor I would try and push for what you suggest on even a bigger scale.
BUT that would be reckless why because it was done in the past with poor results. Many of the people it would rewuire would not really want o do it. If it goes wrong it would destroy lives and certainly many careers. If it goes right the few people that pushed would look great. Likely the winner would be TD, he would get to play RCI for a few days until a signal past it 30 day went bad and a rusty operator trying to make up time kissed a leader or track supervisor doing track work. Then as you and everyone else that rubber stamped this went thru you could stop by and pick up some Italian food at TD's promotion party. He would of course then look like a genious to the new management and to labor for not going along. What really makes him a genious is that he did not have to risk his career to move ahead, he let you do that for him.
In my usually obtuse way I am saying there is no good reason to do what you are suggesting and many reasons it could blow up in your face and most other TA managers realize this on some level.
Without getting into the major disagreements involved in the decision. the Local is trying to start talks ASAP on a local wide level and departmental talks within the next 3 weeks. The departmental issues will be presented to the membership shortly.
Your idea is interesting, but it still leaves the question of how people are to get to these new subway terminals. Much of the city is well beyond walking distance of those places.
I gurantee if there is a strike ( I HOPE NOT) Anyone Operating a train will be a target.They will be so many B I E 's that they wouldnt know what hit em.Seriously I really doubt upper management would risk bodily harm,or walking around a train on a bridge.
And NYC would probably shut down in the event of a strike. It'll be like the days after Sept.11, most business will be closed because employees can't get to work.
Generally it's best to keep ppl out of the system, and in a sense out of the city, until the strike ends.
December 15th will be decent weather...jus bring the McBagget for eatins. CI Peter
i dont want 2 be there in nyc with this "strike" going on ......
..........no subway in nyc ??? ..........!!
did anyone get a date aprox. when this is going to go down ??
thankz !!
The contract expires 12/15/02
whew !! ............after october / november ..........
thankz for the simple answer ...............much appreciated !!!
........lol !
I'm just glad that the contract doesn't expire in summer. Extra walking is no problem for me in the colder months, but in the summer heat I'm useless.
I think it is the holiday shopping season and the stores we ar holding the gun to. There was a mild winter last strike and it made Koch look like a GOD, a bald nebbishy one.
anyone got a date on the subway stike ?? i sure do not want 2 be
there when this is going on !!
thankz if anyone has any info please !
At least Guliani took steps to prevent a strike. I think Bloomberg, as someone who seems to be a big subway enthusiest, would probably be aggresive in preventing a strike.
What Rudy did was struck down in court. It was one of those one time things you could get away with but that pisses everyone off for the next time.
I believe that B and D Trains should be extended from 34 Street to Grand Street. Becuase on the weekends passengers can't rely on the V Train for service, because its out of service for the weekend and the F Trains always have longer waits between trains. The best that passengers can do, is to take the Grand Street Shuttle to West Four and passengers wait for more connections on the F Train to go further points beyond West 4 Street.
nah... the D should be dropped completely, the B made a 24/7 local(with double the service to)extend them 1 stop to w4th. the V should then become 24/7
Good thing I moved out of the city when I did. The D train is as sacred to me as the SeaBits is to Unca Fred. If I was still living down yonder, the beatings would now commence. Fortunately, doesn't really matter much to me these days. But kill the B if you must, the D train was an institution on BOTH sides of the Manny B ...
I was just getting ready to say the damn D should be kept out of Brooklyn when I read your post. Well since both you and Brighton Express Bob love the D and you seem to like it as much as I do the Sea Beach ( if such a thing is possible) I will cease and desist from my culmany. Ok, bring the D back to Brooklyn but put my train on the Manny B. Fair enough?
Works for me, buddy. My only emotional attachment to the D is that I used to work it and the Brighton line was a nice part of two round trips a day plus WAA. But I can't imagine the D train not going to Brighton Bits and Coney to lay it up.
But I can't imagine the D train not going to Brighton Bits and Coney to lay it up.
Here we have to agree to disagree ;-) My fondest memories of the Brighton were when the Q, QT, and QB roamed.... My parents used to take me to Brighton Beach every summer in those days - when the QB was running we rode it all the way from Astoria. When the QT was running we would change at 57th for the Q (we hated the slow winding ride thru the Montague St tunnel).
When the D train took over and the Brighton trains stopped running to Astoria it just became too much trouble to change at 34th street with our coolers and beach chairs and stuff.... I know we could have ridden the RR to DeKalb - but that ride seemed to take forever so we hated that just as much if not more than changing at 34th.
We looked for alternatatives that gave us a one-seat ride and found it in a special bus that ran from Astoria to Jones Beach...So it was good bye Brighton Beach and Coney Island forever...
The QB was a late night and weekend operation prior to Chrystie St., so you would have taken it on a Saturday or Sunday. During weekdays, the Q and QT operated together. When you took the Q, did it run express or local in Brooklyn? For a time in the mid-60s, Q trains ran local in Brooklyn during midday hours.
We used to leave in the morning so the Q ran express - and I rode the railfan window all the way ;-)
And I'll bet you rode on nice, shiny R-32s, too.
Blue doors, TA logo, and all :-)
Don't forget those green backlit side destination signs.:)
Fred!
You're slipping - you should insist on it being called the #1 train!
Big Jim, I would love to call it that but I'd have all the railfans steaming and reaching for a shotgun to use on me if I did that. Some think I'm an over the hill warhorse who is totally out of it where nostalgia is concerned. But to me the Brighton should always have been the #1 train. Bob thinks so too.
Fred! You over the hill? - never! To an extent, anyone with a historical mindset and some creativity will hypothesise about what might have been. This may well be even more so for you as you lived through a time when there were major differences in NYC, especially the Subway, from how it is now. Nostalgia isn't bad!
What strikes me most about the BMT and IRT numbering systems is that at one time, it was possible to get two completely different #1, #2 and #3 trains at Times Square. This must have caused a little confusion for those unfortunates who can't tell the BMT when tey see it!
Actually, that was during a transition period for both divisions. The IRT number code was phased in after WWII when new R units began replacing the old Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs. From 1948 to 1955, only the Flushing line was identified by a number, and that was 7. When the R-17s began arriving, they replaced the Hi-Vs on the Lexington Ave. local, which became the 6. The West Side first saw numbers around 1957, when R-21s went into service on the 1.
The BMT was a different kettle of fish. Most of the rolling stock didn't have any front end signs at all, and those cars which did operated on only a few routes. You had the Triplexes on the Brighton (1) and Sea Beach (4); multis on the Canarsie (16) and 14th St.-Fulton St. (13) and later on the Myrtle-Chambers (10) lines; and the R-16s on the Jamaica (15). (Prior to the R-16s, no one even knew the Jamaica line's number was 15, even though the BMT number code had been adopted in 1925 - 30 years earlier!) Besides, nobody in Brooklyn ever referred to subway trains by route number. It was always Brighton, 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach, and Culver, not 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
To make it even more confusing, the IND's letter code was expanded to include BMT routes beginning in 1960 with the arrival of the R-27s. Although their route signs included both the old BMT titles and new designation (ex. Q/Broadway-Brighton), people were still confused. "What's a Q/N/T/RR?" was a commonly heard question. I am told. Until the last of the prewar equipment disappeared from the Southern Division around 1965, you would see trains with either no front markings (BMT standards, ex-SIRT cars, Lo-Vs); number markings (Triplexes and R-11s); or letter markings (R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s).
Things were a bit simpler on the IND, whose trains had letter markings right from the start.
Good show and right on the mark Steve. Your knowledge of the history of the BMT is terrific. One thing, though. Many of us new, though, what train was the # 1, 2 , 3, and 4. There was never any doubt about that. I left town before all the confusion came in around 1955. The only saving grace is that they gave my Sea Beach the letter "N". That has always been my favorite letter---Notre Dame, Navy, Nebraska (for my wife), Nicholas, my favorite name, etc, etc.
Let's hope Notre Dame does well. I'm sure Tyrone Willingham will get the job done, although it may take time. I remember him at Michigan State. I have the 1976 ND/MSU game on audio tape, and Don Criqui mentions Willingham several times.
I'll have to point out that "Know Trains at a Glance" sign they have in the maintenance shop at Shoreline to you. It proclaims the N as being the Sea Beach Express.
It seems the number designations on both systems were more for operations than for the public. Only in the IND did the letters (which also seemed at first to be mainly for the towers, evidenced by their identification as "signals" on the IND map) come to be the public identifier of the line, probably because all the equipment consistently bore the letters. All of the maps (including Hagstrom and TA) had the letters for only the IND (then BMT south and IRT first appeared after the World's Fair period, leading into the Chrystie era when letters and numbers officially became the universal line identifier).
You forgot the Franklin Av. trains, with Zephyrs and R11s, signed up as (7).
Oops, you're right. Sorry.
Except British James that the #4 IRT Woodlawn Line used the Low V's which did not carry numbers, while the #4BMT had the number right in front of the train. None of us in our neighborhood associated the #4 train with anything other than the Sea Beach and that was in Queens where I lived most of my time in New York.
I've been saying the same thing. Unfortunately, the MTA never constructed a crossover north of Grand. Because of this, it's almost impossible to have both trains terminate at Grand.
Then how about D to Bdwy Lafeyatte, J to Bklyn, B over the WillyB and replace the M.
Not such a bad idea, leave the Q/W turning around at 57th, and extend the B to take over the M route; then extend the J to 9th Avenue (rush hours only)
extend the B to take over the M route
What have people got against the M Train? It's a much better letter than B! Anyway, how about the rush hour West End - Nassau service?
thats what the M does now... and it is underused...
thats what the M does now... and it is underused... it can be replaced with J service to 9th avenue[Bay Pky rush hours],with trains from Metropolitan ave going uptown via Chrystie and 6th avenue.
Have nothing against the M train, but what purpose does it serve going all the way to Bay Parkway. The West End Line does not need 2 lines. Combining the B and the M would give both lines more of a purpose.
Have nothing against the M train, but what purpose does it serve going all the way to Bay Parkway. The West End Line does not need 2 lines. Combining the B and the M would give both lines more of a purpose.
You still need Grand Street Shuttle, so B'way/Laff can't be a terminal.
Turn the D's at West 4th on B4. Send the NB shuttles in behind the D's leaving NB. Then the shuttle goes N past the X-over, the next D comes south into B4, and the Shuttle relays and loads on B3.
That job would burn out some TW/O's quite fast.
Re: B to Metropolitan; that would require the B to run from the Eastern Div, or some 60' cars to move into Concourse, which I can't see happening. -I wonder if the loadings of the M and B are similar enough for a run through to make sense, frequency-wise.
I think if the Houston/WillyB connector is ever re-opened, its going to be a huge success - with whatever service you'd use.
I think if the Houston/WillyB connector is ever re-opened, its going to be a huge success - with whatever service you'd use.
I agree. When the K train did the service it was a totally "different time" and they only ran it rush hours. it they ran it all days (except nights and weekends) I think it would be a success. The B/M scenario is very interesting, as 57th could not be used as a terminal anymore, like the days of the old K train. So that leaves your suggestion of the B/M combo or a V/M combo (or the many times suggested Canarsie 6th to Queens (V extension)or Central Park West)
Without a doubt, that Broadway-Laffayete/Essex St connector should be used again. J trains can use it for a nice Washington Heights-Jamaica run while the M covers the remaining service to Broad Street and Brooklyn. I never found the Z to be a useful train. I would stay at the rail-fan window end to end if this service is implemented.
there arent any switches at Grand St.the closest switch is before West 4th.therefore thats why a shuttle was implemented when this all started over a year ago because it would cause big time delays and TA never wants that.so do we understand how it is now?
I wore out my welcome at Webshots; they won't let me upload any more pictures, so I'm looking elsewhere.
I'm trying Club Photo, and uploaded twelve photos from Boston taken last week for a trial run.
Nice pictures.
I see MBTA is still running the old Pullman-Standard cars on the Red Line. They have not continued procuring more Bombardier trainsets to phase them out...
Ron The MBTA plns to order more cars in the future right now they run pullman 1500s 1600s anu UDTC cars 1700s identical to the Pullmans. Besides they rebuilt the pullmans in 1986-89 with fedral funding so they cantget rid of them till they match their funding. Stevie
The 01500 and 01600 red line cars will be there for another 9 or 10 years. Question is whether they will retire the 01700s at that time, or continue their life until the late teens/early 20s. -Nick
Do you realize you have an expiration date on that foto, it will delete them after like 100 days or something. Also the fotos won't load on my machine, but that's probably because I have all scripting disabled.
I used to host my own fotos, then I ran out of disc space. I then decided it's not really worth sharing photos online unless someone else takes the trouble of hosting/updating. There's Clark County Library that runs the Amtrak foto archives, then there's George Elwood's Fallen Flag Railroad Fotos. If you want to run your own shop, it can get kinda tiring after about 200 fotos.
AEM7
Do you realize you have an expiration date on that foto, it will delete them after like 100 days or something.
Yes. It's a 90 day limit. I can make it permanent by paying an annual fee. That's why I said I'm trying it out. I'm still open to suggestions.
All the pages and viewing windows open up but none of the pictures, previews or full size, themselves load.
-Robert King
Maybe you hit it while I was loading eight more photos; try again and see if it works.
twenty photos from Boston
Very good shots. Only complaint is Club Photo seems to be the Roach Motel of photo shots - you go in, but you can't get out.
Good photos, Bob! It's nice to see soem current pics of the MBTA. Did you get any pics of Bombardier's red line 01800 cars? How about the Breda type 8s, many of them are stored at Cleveland Circle/Resevoir. -Nick
Great shots! Wouldn't you know I was in a lot of the same places taking pictures about a week after you were. I even got shots of the same PCC wire car and snowplow at Mattapan, and the PCC in the shed, too! I'm glad to have yours to look at, since I didn't get many good Blue Line shots.
Mark
Thanks, Mark.
BTW, we were there the same week (last week, ACS meeting).
I didn't know you were in chemistry, or at least if I did I forgot. What area? I'm a polymer chemist heavily involved in education. I keep trying to think of ways to use subways to teach chemistry, but I haven't come up with many ideas yet. I had one idea for an activity in which students evaluated the environmental risk involved in sinking Redbirds, but I thought it might be a little advanced for genchem.
Mark
Medicinal chemist (BS level), working in discovery research for a pharmaceutical company.
Interesting.
I've sent you an email. Would like to talk...
What about having an exercise where the students have to design a polymer that is used to make seats, that is strong and graffiti proof? I don't know if they could make seats out of Kevlar. Given the kind of structure it has, I would think, if woven correctly, it is pretty graffiti proof, you can wipe it with acetone and it won't dissolve but acetone will remove most marker pens. Bic won't even write on Kevlar. It won't burn either. The only problem is that it can be cut easily with a knife.
The point is that Kevlar fibers have this strong delocalized structure (?) along the entire polymer making it unreactive and won't soak up graff, although I think the technique is mostly in the weaving rather than the molecular structure :-/
Never mind me, I'm spewing crap.
ChuChu, You have entirely too much free time on your hands, I'm jealous ! Thanks for sharing.
You have entirely too much free time on your hands
That's what they're telling me at work, Mr. t. I was supposed to be at a business meeting.
Isn't life great when you go out of your way to enjoy it !
Isn't it great when an employer pays for a railfanning expedition? As we discovered earlier, I was sent to the same meeting and milked the opportunity for all the railfanning it was worth.
Mark
And last year my employer sent me to the Chicago ACS meeting (which ended the day before the SubTalk Chicago Field Trip began, so I stayed three extra days and participated).
Hey, not fair. I work in transportation and my employer doesn't send me on railfan trips. Maybe I should consider joining the chemical industry. Then I get to write out waybills for shipping 250 tons of hydroflouric acid.
You have to get creative, i.e. when I have a meeting in Brooklyn or Manhattan I take one of our express buses to Manhattan, then a subway train to the destination. Time wise it's about the same & I enjoy putting in a petty cash slip for a "Fun Pass".
I was there, too, except I didn't stay for the field trip. I did lots of riding on the L and Metra, though. I have business trips to thank for a most of the railfanning I do outside Philadelphia. I was a bit disappointed that this spring's ACS meeting was in Orlando, sadly devoid of rail transit. So when I booked my flight I took a long layover in Miami so I could ride its el.
Mark
You were presumably also at the New Orleans meeting (since you were associated with several presentations/posters, according to SciFinder). Was that your Chevy Impala with the current Pennsylvania registration parked by the Riverfront Line?
As much as I wish that car were mine, I can't say that it is, sadly.
:(
But I was at that meeting, and I did some riding on the St. Charles line, and watched the testing on the soon-to-be Canal St. line. I hope I can be down there for the spring meeting in March, too.
Mark
Actually, that's a psychedelic Buick LeSabre...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You da man.
What an eye!!!
Bob, nice shots, as usual. Sorry to hear you've worn out your welcome at WebShots. Maybe you could do what I do and rotate your "exhibits." My ISP only gives me a certain amount of homepage space (I think it's 6 MB) per email address, so I end up rotating my photos on and off the server as I run out of space. I'm not sure if WebShots works this way, though.
Thanks, Pete.
I can delete and replace photos on Webshots. That's what I did for the SNJLRTS prototype light rail car shots.
More Times Union treats ... no subscription required. It just keeps getting dumber and dumber while the politicos hide behind their fallen comrades ...
Operating cash questionable
Fred LeBrun's thoughts
Hmm... think we can get this LeBrun fellow to run for Bruno's job????
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He doesn't WANT it. He'd have to live in Rensselaer county to run. The number of potential politicos which have opposable thumbs is *SO* low over there, Bruno's running unopposed. Oooh. I made joke. :)
"Politicians who once rushed to take credit for the project are now quietly distancing themselves from it."
I'm starting to like this paper
"It was a jovial crew that donned the traditional hard hats and plunged ceremonial shovels into the dirt on June 2, 1999, to mark the official groundbreaking for a grand new passenger rail station. Gov. George Pataki, Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno and U.S. Rep. John Sweeney were the biggest names in the bunch."
Wow, it's amazing they can make something completely useless in only 3 years, but when it comes to something that would actually help people like the second avenue subway....
Yeah, those of us who actually PAY for a newspaper up here do sorta demand a minimum of BS and some "straight shooting" from reporters. And being a political town, we've ALL seen way too many glad-handed sidewalk acts. While folks in the city get to see the "photo-ops," those of us who live up here have to watch the sausage actually being made. :)
And NONE of us wanted this damned boondoggle, as Fred LeBrun's article put it SO clearly, things were JUST fine as they were. But when a trailer park county's state Senator becomes the "Majority leader" only because he outlived the others and has been there almost as long as the capitol building, then to hell with the second avenue subway, it's not in HIS district. Politics is like that which is why I'm constantly bringing up the political angles. When you have political decisions like who gets a subway and who gets a boondoggle, it helps to know how the place is wired.
Sure would be nice if politicians could think outside their own box for a "greater good" ... but that ain't gonna happen. To the victor belongs the graft. :)
I noticed for the whole summer already every station on the BMT Astoria line is being painted. However what about the El itself? It looks like it hasn't been painted in decades.
I guess no one has an answer for this question.
If they painted the structure, it would deny a number of SubTalkers their right to complain about it being an eyesore that needs to be demolished.
Where would the money come from to demolish the El and replace it with a subway? By painting the el you are reducing the eyesore.
I think it was meant as a joke. A few weeks ago there were some heated threads about destroying the Astoria El because it was an "inferior" el. THe whole thread was a lot of nonsense, I believe just to get a rise out of people, and it got out of hand so the thread was thankfully deleated. There were some good points however mentioned in between the flaming posts, such as possibly replacing the el with a subway and running it to LaGuardia, while a good idea, will not happen in the near future.
Painting the el structure will trap water and cause it to rust faster.
Elias
If you'll go to the MTA site, the capital program does call for repainting the EL structure. They are also planning a repaint of the White Plains line from E 180 to 241 pluis renovating those stations too. jackson to East Tremont (177) will also be renovated as will Fordham and Woodlawn on the 4. The rest of the 4 line el stations are in the 5 year plan.
Based upon the equipment that is stored at Great Kills, Huguenot, and Clifton, it would appear that the capital signal project currently underway will install signal bridges at many locations, instead of just the lineside signals that are already present.
As far as project progress, they are still running cables. They have installed control boxes between the rails at several locations, and pre-cast foundations for lineside equipment have been placed. So far, no signals, and few of the track boxes are wired.
-Hank
And soon the B&O CPL signals will be replaced by TA-style
homeballs. ARE YOU LISTENING MERIDEN MIKE? I'll bet they'll
be SAFETRAN heads too!
What exactly is this signal project to accomplish on our little two-track SIR, and why have they placed street-name markers along the tracks every two blocks or so?
Supposedly, it will reverse-signal the line, enabling increased capacity. Of course, that capacity isn't really needed. The platforms were extended years ago to accomodate five-car trains. I have yet to ride one. When they were in use, they only lasted a few months before they reduced them back to four cars. Similarly, they were using two-car trains nights and weekends, but that stopped around the same time as fare collection. The only increase in service that is needed, trains every 15 minutes between Great Kills or Huguenot and St. George, doesn't require a new signal system.
-Hank
Ah, thank you Federal dollars...
Reverse signalling is going to be quite a nice trick to see in operation. Since the crossover near Princeton Avenue was removed, a St. George bound "reversed" train at Great Kills won't be able to cross back until Jefferson Avenue. So Tottenville bound trains will just sit at Dongan Hills, etc. But I guess since the SIR got the money, they figured they'd better spend it on something.
It's also and install of cab signals, I don't know if it will be positve train control or even floating blocks. I think I heard the system would be similar to MetroNorth but they might have changed that.
They're only drawf CPL heads s its not that bad. BTW I have nothing to do w/ the city of Meriden. It's only my Amtrak stop.
WE have RELATIVES in Meriden. TOO many. Don't blaspheme. :P
Anybody seen this site:
http://www.thortrains.net/subwaysx.html
It's got downloadable paper kits for building a subway station and cars. There's also a subway board game. I've downloaded them, and if I ever find the time I may try building them.
Alan Glick
Those don't look very realistic. I don't think I'll make them.
Try this: http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/tgv/papermodels.html
They have plans for TGVs, ICE trains, even the Acela. I've never made any
of them but they look really great.
David
these cars should be sent to developing countries as low income housing!!!!! just do basic repairs(ie- fixing holes), put small rooms in the non sleepers, and you have cheap housing!!!!!there could be solar panels on top, for electric. any oppinions?
Err no. The USA does not owe developing countries diddly squat, and I'd rather see them go to scrap metal than to developing countries housing. At least scrapping them will generate jobs in the USA.
I love your sense of compassion!
That's OK ... some day our buddy is going to end up in TEXAS and pay TAXES required to compensate for the smoking crater left behind by its former governor. Some people need to live their philosophies in order to get religion. Worked for me. :)
I have no problem selling them to developing countries for their value.
these cars did cost millions of bucks, and we're going to give them away as houses which could be built for a few thousand dollars?
i mean the wrecked ones, which are of no value to us if they are unuseable
i guess single level cars could also be used
I started putting together a website of all of my digital photos. Most of the photos will be organized by car class, but so far I only have the "slants" photos up. There are some other photos up as well. I will be uploading the rest of the photos over the next couple weeks. Check it out and tell me what you think. Thanks.
http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains/index.html
Hey, I really like the layout. Very professional. How do you have time to update the news, or is it just news that will never change?
AEM7
I got the layout from http://www.oswd.org. I will update the news whenever I see something worthy. It only takes a few minutes.
AWESOME!!!!
Excuse me for yelling, but that site looks fantastic! I feel so low compared to you since my website experience is practically nil. I really wish you the best of luck with your site. Awesome!!
Brian,
Excellent effort.
I look forward to visiting.
Very nice website...I liked the "news" section.
Excellent work.
Tell me, though. Don't two of the pics in the "9/11 related" section show the gate and stairway to the inner platform? It looks familiar, as I visited that platform on a Transit Museum tour in 1996.
Yes, they do. I need to add captions to all the photos, but I probably won't do that until they are all uploaded.
Nice site...very nice layout...I liked a few of those HBLR pics at Newport Centre Mall and Harsimus Cove...
Cleanairbus
Had to ride the 1 to Wash Heights today. Coupla questions: Seems that 191st had a different name, as the nameplate is affixed on the wall over the tiles. WHat was that name, and why did it change? ALso, 181st seems to have two different versions of the mosaic that reads "181st, Geo. Wash. Bridge." Is that origional, or did more station name mosaics get added? If so, which are origional, and which are added, and when. ALso, the rest of the mosaic pattern is slightly different on each platform. It looks like one side was matched to the other, and it wasn't done perfectly. Anyone know if this is so? It seemed like 168th may have had a similar situation, but I didn't get a good look.
Since the GW Bridge wasn't built until AFTER the IRT was built, I'd say that some of the tiles work isn't original.
the black sings covered up the original mosaic tablet. If you'll look at the North (Bronx) end of the Downtown Platform you'll see one original tablet.
BTW- Ihink renovation is near- I see fresh survey marks on the platforms.
I now work at 191.
What do the old mosaics say - same thing? Why did they cover them with the black signs?
The old tablet says :
191st Street
There are a couple of others on the station which are missing sectiosn of tile. While I did not anmd woudl nto pull off signs, I am guessing the black signs were put up to inform customers of where they were (191st street(.
I knew that was you sitting on a bench Monday night. Sitting by the C/R position, playing some type of game.........
this can not B true !!
I recieved a E mail ( i will not give the name on this board )..sorry.
according to him he was shooting his video camcorer on the #7 train
the transit police told him to surrender his current ID and stop !!??
$50.oo fine if he was caught shooting on the #7 again ???
is this true folks ?? have they tried to stop mark fienmann from
shooting his railfan / subway videos ?
..............I HOPE NOT .................no..lol !!
I think it may have to do with all of the intense security on the 7 line during the US Open. They have all sorts of ridiculous restrictions and are trying to protect us all from the 'threat' of terrorism.
Luckily, you're already done with videotaping, right Salaam? I hope not ;-)
hell no i got to re tape the express runs !! both directions !!
& they did not say anything to me during the 2000 world series
( most of them thought it was a good idea )
i did tell them it was a railfan-window for the most part shooting !!
if U B cool bout' it it should B no problem !!
..........rignt ??................lol !!
hell no i am not done with shooting video at all !!!
he he he he .........
Amazing ... like the Al Qaeda kids don't already HAVE tapes and pictures with circles and arrows on the back of each one from YEARS ago. Why do we keep thinking these people are STUPID? Once you DO the "act" you do so after you've gathered all the "intelligence" you need. Then again, we KEEP underestimating our enemy. That's why we sealed off the borders weeks after we started shooting at them and then wonder how they got away.
CLUEPHONE ... if they're planning on blowing up towers and taking over the subways, they've ALREADY GOT the data and the pictures. (walks away muttering and shaking his head)
It is called "Closing the barn door after all the horses escaped"
already HAVE tapes and pictures with circles and arrows on the back of each one from YEARS ago.
Yeah, but they forgot the paragraphs explaining what each one was and how it was to be used. Nothing like half a quote.
What exactly are they doing to the number 7 line anyways? Should I be sending one of my secret operatives armed with a Rolleicord to document it?
-Robert King
Surrender his ID? Don't you have a press pass or something like that?
i have several id mta -la pass and cali' ids !!
i do want 2 reshoot the express runs on the #7 again !! 4 sure !!
( & dats' night/dayz ) .............lol !!
?????????...................!
Just don't show up with an Islamic/Arabic named ID right now. Security is being tightened for the publics' safety amid concerns about Iraqi adventures. My friend, come into NYC, enjoy the rides and take a few pics for the scrapbook and return home in Peace. CI Peter
My la mta id is in my name....sorry folks my religion is ( off topic )
and in america & ny -ny ..it should not matter !!!
what do they do with the many employees with muslim names who work on
all of the different systems of the rail transit systems in the
metro nyc area(s) ??..............hmmmmm???
i look more american indian / black in appearence anyway !!!
& we will be there after 911 2002 ................................!
with my la-mta vest as a exchange guest this should not tick anyone
off at all !! my home has always been nyc where i was born !!
i do not even know any middle easterners at all ( met a few ) ..!!..?
my neighborhood is mostly southern mexico afro cuban & black folks !!
( mostly american black-indian like me ) ............!!!
besides it seems all they talk about is laker basketball-NFL-football
@ i used to like the california angles baseball !!!........lol !!
i come in peace to work myself 2 death AND MY FEET KILLING ME !!
going from one railfan-window-2-another shooting marathon style
until i either drop dead from being totally waisted & or puke !!
he he he he he ...as long as da' video makes it .....yea !!!
(one day i will shoot stills only) lol !!!!
hell only 3 weeks in nyc?? man that is a real drag !!
wish i could do a month !!! kiss a redbird when i see them !!
lol !! ..................
oh well !!! thankz
>>Just don't show up with an Islamic/Arabic named ID right now.<<
Instead show up with fellow railfans, nobody bothers us. Just post here and I'm sure you may get some SubTalkers to tag along in your search for a clean railfan window !
Bill "Newkirk"
When all R143s are in, then CI will send their R32s to Jamaica, and as Zman said, they will take up {when they are all in} most if not all of the F line. The V should then have PLENTY of cars to carry it out to at least Church Ave, maybe even Kings Highway. Also, with this kind of service, and the fact that nobody on Qns Blvd seems to like the F b/c of where it goes, you can reduce the amount of Fs to say 12 tph, and let them get more Es in. Any extra Es that can't go to Parsons Archer b/c of relay capacity can go to 179 where there is plenty of room. As more and more R143s come in, the excuse of a car shortage disintegrates more and more. Soon there will be no excuse not to send the V out to Brooklyn whether Bergen works out or not.
Is it not possible that there are better uses for the additional cars being added to the system? You seem to think that each R-143 sent to ENY bumps exactly one car to CI which bumps exactly one car to Jamaica. That's not the case -- the gains are being distributed around the entire B Division.
IME, F's in Queens are hardly empty. Even if they were, what about the rest of the line in Manhattan and Queens -- will it get enough service? If you increase the number of E's per hour, the risk of merge delays with the V and C also increases, on the E as well as on the V and C. Are you sure that's what you want? The Queens Boulevard express tracks should not dictate how the rest of the system runs.
Indeed. Increases in J/Z service could be very useful; cars should and will be added to make Gtrains longer; additional Sixth Av and Broadway trains may well be needed when the Manny B reopens; additional rolling stock may be desirable on the A line as AirTrain starts putting more riders on the subway this fall.
So many demands....
There is a REAL LACK of NYC Subway service to Brazil. Extending the X train would solve many of our problems. As I understand it, there will be a large car transfer between the Cayman Island and Jamaica yards.
A while back, there was an exchange of posts about a derailment in California. In case anyone is still interested, Amtrak's press release can be found at http://www.amtrak.com/press/ad20020822000.html
Yesterdays LA Times had a very short article that mentioned the cause of the derailment was a drawbar laying on the tracks...yet a freight had gone through that very same location half an hour before and encountered no problems.
Does this sound like vandalism???
Does this sound like vandalism???
May have been. We're not immune to that at the museums either... sometime late Friday night or early Saturday morning someone piled a stump and two old ties on the Branford ROW about halfway between the picnic grove and the section break. Fortunately I took an inspection run down the line rather than waiting to make the first trip until we had revenue... although this was plainly visible from a distance and therefore posed no danger, I would not have wanted to stop to clear it when I've got passengers, or short-turn the trip because I couldn't clear it on my own.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like it to me.
>>> Does this sound like vandalism??? <<<
In wartime it is called sabotage, not vandalism. Maybe they will find some more enemy combatants to lock away without charges among the local high school students.
Tom
Drawbars are not something that one can just pick up anywhere. Sounds like the freight that had passed earlier had a problem that went unreported. A drawbar is part of the coupler/draft gear assembly.
Drawbars are not something that one can just pick up anywhere. Sounds like the freight that had passed earlier had a problem that went unreported. A drawbar is part of the coupler/draft gear assembly.
I fail to see how a 'passing freight' could loose a drawbar and it go unnoticed! I mean, if you loose a drawbar, the train will pull apart. That alone will put FRED into a panic, as well as dump the trainline (can you say BIE). Even a dead engineer will know when his train goes BIE!
Elias
British James recently suggested that Queens Blvd express station passengers headed for 7th Ave will take whichever comes first, the E or the F.
I personally suspect that kind of behavior is extremely rare because New Yorkers are creatures of habit. Millions will take an express or a local, whichever comes first. Some at going from Roosevelt to 6th Ave will even take an F or a V, whichever comes first.
But how often does anyone ever take trains to one of two **different destinations**, whichever comes first, and do a different final leg (on foot or bus) once out of the subway? One example might be taking either the M or the R to lower Manhattan when you're on 4th Ave in Brooklyn.
Has anyone actually ever done this?
(I've only done it a few times, to get from Union Square to west midtown back when only the N and R were running, often very bunched up, on Broadway. I would stand on the stairs between the L and the N/R. If the L came first,I'd take it to 8th Ave and switch to the A/C/E. Otherwise I'd take the N/R and walk from Broadway to my destination.)
Sometimes, I did the M/R thing that you suggested. If an M came first, I got on that, if an R came first, I rode that. The City Hall stations are a block away.
When I was a kid my dad showed me the "trick" of knowing alternate routings to get going fast or have a more pleasant ride. He particularly pointed out that if a Brighton Local wasn't too crowded and came first (from Times Square) it could be better than waiting for a crowded express.
When I lived on the Brighton and worked near City Hall I would often take a Brighton Local or a Nassau Street special, whichever came first, then walk to my destination.
On the LIRR now, my wife and I both follow the policy that if there's any trouble at all at Penn in the evening, we take the "first train out" that stops in Jamaica. That way we avoid the possibility that the trains will get even more backed up between Penn and Jamaica.
On the LIRR now, my wife and I both follow the policy that if there's any trouble at all at Penn in the evening, we take the "first train out" that stops in Jamaica. That way we avoid the possibility that the trains will get even more backed up between Penn and Jamaica.
Flatbush Avenue also can be used as an alternative in some circumstances.
Flatbush Avenue also can be used as an alternative in some circumstances.
Anyone heading to Downtown Manhattan should ride the LIRR to Flatbush regularly. It's a much better option than riding to Penn.
One of my favorite walks when I worked downtown was to take the LIRR to Flatbush Avenue, then any of several routes over the Brooklyn Bridge to end up at Hudson and Beach. Always under an hour.
If I were still doing that I'd probably add Manhattan Bridge to the mix and do some train watching at the same time.
First, unless you're referring to the 7th Av stop on the E, the Sixth Av trains will get you as close to many destinations as an Eighth Av train. Plus, both E and F run local in Manhattan, so neither will skip stops; and realistically, neither train offers much of a time advantage over the other.
Unless one train serves a specific stop the other doesn't, I certainly wouldn't care.
I usually do it on the LIRR at either Penn or Flatbush. As I'd rather wait at Jamaica than either of those I normally take the first train to leave. (Except of course expresses that skip Jamaica or Port Washington trains)
Sorry, I didn't see Paul Matus' post where he basically stated the same thing before I posted.
Hey, I'm glad to see I'm not the only "Get out of Penn" loon. :)
Plus, with all the construction going on at Jamaica there's just a lot more to see.
CG
First, unless you're referring to the 7th Av stop on the E, the Sixth Av trains will get you as close to many destinations as an Eighth Av train. Plus, both E and F run local in Manhattan, so neither will skip stops; and realistically, neither train offers much of a time advantage over the other.
Maybe if you're heading to a destination between 8th av and 6th av, but keep in mind that the 8th av serves destinations that are west of 8th av much more efficiently. If I'm going to a building on 34th and 7th, then sure, take either the E or F (or V). But 10th and 34th? I'm going to be on the E.
Of course. I was only referring to destinations along 7th Avenue.
I might take a 6th Av train if I intended to walk or window-shop along the way etc. and it wouldn't be efficient to get back on a train.
Going home, I'll take the 2/5 to Church Avenue or the 1/3(9/15/2002)/4 to Utica Avenue. At Utica Avenue, I do the same thing with the buses (B17 or B46). I have preferences in both cases, but it doesn't save me much time to wait on one over the other.
I do it almost every day. Going from 53rd/5th to Penn Station, I'll take either the E to 34/8 or the V to 34/6 and then walk over to Penn. The V plus the walk is definitely longer, but much less crowded.
When I lived on the Upper West Side a few years ago I would often play the game late nights at Columbus Circle. If you position yourself correctly, you can make it to an uptown 1 or and uptown A local. Since I lived between Broadway and CPW it made sense to take whichever came first.
Another situation occurs on the skip stop lines (going to 151st street? take a 1 or a 9 it's a six block walk from either 145 or 157).
Others I can think of:
N or R to Queensboro or Queens Plaza.
In the days before the Manhattan Bridge flip -- D to Ocean Parkway or F to Neptune Avenue.
And, of course, the one I grew up with. Home was midway between LIRR Rockville Centre and LIRR East Rockaway.
I used to do that when I worked in MetroTech from 1992 - 1996.
I would get off the #6 at Bleecker and the take either the B, D to Dekalb and use the exit at the north end of the station
or if the F (sometimes a rerouted A or C) came in first I would take that to Jay St-Boro Hall.
The difference in walking was about 1/2 block.
What did I do if both came in at the same time? Depended on my mood. If I wanted to see the sights from the MB I took the B or D. If I wasn't in the mood I'd take the F.
Going home was a different situation altogether. There I liked to walk up to Court St and catch the 4 or 5.
Hope you don't mind my whipping it in here, Unca Al ...
You guys with the "half block to here, half block to there, FEH! Who cares what train?"
OH how I wish it was like that back where I lived in da Bronix ... most of my jobs were over on 9th Ave, 1st Ave or just of 6th. I lived at 205th (D terminus) and my ride (and what I sat and ROTTED FOR were based on where I worked. D train was the ONLY way home, the Jerome and the White Plains (across Bronx park) were equidistant after the 4rd Avenue EL (right outside my flipping door at the 204th stop) ... Dtrain fooked, I rotted until it was UNbroke when I didn't screw up the railroad PERSONALLY. Heh.
If the D died, it was a HAUL back to my place from anywhere else, so I'm sitting here with visions of daggers for youse guys who could take ANYTHING that rolled in. You miserable BASKETS! :)
"the 4rd Avenue EL"
Whoops ... I hope you know I meant THIRD there ... don't remember any FORD Avenue el in da Bronx ... OK, I go bed. Moo. ;0 (Anna Nicole celebrates Rennselaer)
In Boston, alternative routings are rare, but sometimes I've done this headed downtown from MIT:
Seeing an outbound #1 bus, take it to Central and change for the Red Line to arrive at Park.
Seeing an inbound #1 bus, take it to Hynes Convention Center and change for the Green Line to arrive at Park.
Seeing no buses, walk to Kendall and take the Red Line to arrive at Park.
"Seeing no buses, walk to Kendall and take the Red Line to arrive at Park."
That should be the quickest statistically, and besides, gives you some exercie.
I used to do that when I went to NYIT near Columbus Circle.
I would walk down the stairs to the Downtown #1 platform. If the #1 was there, I'd take it to Times Square and change for the N (which was express at the time, via the Manny B) to get home to Kings Highway.
If the #1 didn't make an appearance, then I'd walk down to the Downtown IND platform and take the first thing that came in.
If it was an A, I'd ride it out to Jay Street for the F to Kings Highway.
If it was an AA/K, I'd ride to West 4th, check the tower, and see what was coming next. Most times I'd grab the F downstairs.
If it was a B, I'd ride it to the first crossplatform connection to the F, or to Pacific for the N.
If it was a C, I'd ride it out to Jay Street for the F to Kings Highway.
If it was a D, I'd ride it to the first crossplatform connection to the F, or to DeKalb for the N.
I never knew which way I'd get home, but the ride was usually about an hour door-to-door.
"check the tower"
Can anybody "check" it? I'd sure LOVE to do that, and is there anywhere else you can do it?
The board at 96th/Broadway is visible to the public. It's near the south end of the former SB local platform, so it's visible through a window from the SB island platform near the north end.
Right now it isn't of much use, since anything coming down Lenox could be a local or an express. But when the 2 returns to (scheduled) express service, it's a good way to help make the decision of whether to take the local or wait a bit longer for the express.
I am still really annoyed that they hid the board at the south end of the southbound 4/5/6 GCT platform.
But how often does anyone ever take trains to one of two **different destinations**, whichever comes first, and do a different final leg (on foot or bus) once out of the subway? One example might be taking either the M or the R to lower Manhattan when you're on 4th Ave in Brooklyn.
Has anyone actually ever done this?
One of my co-workers does this coming to the office. Takes either the M to Broad St or the N/R to Whitehall St, whatever shows up first at DeKalb. This has the side effect of choosing where he gets his breakfast. =)
British James recently suggested that Queens Blvd express station passengers headed for 7th Ave will take whichever comes first, the E or the F.
I must admit I usually wait for the exact bus I want at home in Birmingham, UK. I'm in the situation of being about quarter of a mile from the centre of King's Heath (the 2nd largest commercial area in the City). From there I have a choice of 2 buses to Birmingham City Centre:
#35 goes right into the centre of Birmingham, runs 12 buses per hour at peaks (single decker and absolutely packed), 2 buses per hour evenings and Sundays.
#50 terminates on the edge of the centre (necessitating a walk along narrow ill-lit streets in the evenings), runs 18 buses per hour at peaks (double decker and half empty), 6 buses per hour evenings and Sundays
You can guess I always wait for the 35 if I'm headed for the city (which I don't do often), despite it saving me only a five to ten minute walk. I guess folks on Queens Boulevard are no worse than me.
I used to toard the first brain that came to West 4th Street going southbound. They use two different stations at WTC/Chambers, but it's the same complex so it doesn't count so much.
Basically, I just made this post to write "toard a brain."
Shows how the brain only sees what it wants to see. If you hadn't put the little P.S. at the end I never would have realized that you didn't say "board a train"!
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the obvious case: if my destination is between a local station and an express station but a bit closer to the local station, and I don't mind having a slightly longer walk than necessary, I might take the express if it comes first. Or if I'm already on the express and I've been on it for a while, I'll base my decision on when my train last passed an express. (If I haven't been on it long enough to know, I'll estimate based on the crowds on the local platforms. Not many people waiting? Then I probably just missed a local.) Once I get to the express station, if a local going the other way happens to be pulling in right then, I might run over and try to catch it -- or if I go up to the street and a bus pulls up, I'll might use my free transfer if I'm feeling particularly lazy.
I doubt I'm alone in any of this.
Kevin Waslh's mention of his new Stillwell page with Nostalgia Train photos ws buried at the end of a different thread. If you haven't seen it, check it out at Forgotten NY Stillwell Page.
Anyone recognize any SubTalkers (or themselves) there?
Just corrected the title, since it didn't really say what I meant.
I can see me and my father in one of those pictures. He doesn't realize it yet, though.
In the transfer from the southbound BMT at 9th St. (Brooklyn) to the southbound IND (F) at 4th Avenue, past the ground-level fare control and up the stairs to the mezzanine landing, one level below the IND platforms, are 2 mosaic signs painted-over with whitewash. I have spent a few minutes scrutinizing these signs, but I can't figure out what's written underneath. They are too long to simply say, "IND LINES" to counter the still-visible, white-letters-on-green "BMT LINES" mosaics, which can still be seen in stairwell/landings elswehere in that same IND/BMT station complex. Also, I think I can make out the letter 'C' (Church?), but I'm not sure.
Because of the strange history of this IND line (the one transversing the Gowanus canal to Church Avenue, not the one to Euclid/Lefferts/Far Rockaway), i.e., only physically connecting with the BMT Culver Line in the 1950s, I can't begin to hazzard a guess about these signs. [I guess before 1954(?), the IND terminated at Church and you had to walk to a BMT Culver train.]
What did these whited-out signs say?
It might say:
"Independent Subway System" which was the official name.
I don't think there was ever a transfer from the IND at Church Ave to a station on the BMT Culvver line. I believe the B35 Bus transfer started AFTER the Culver shuttle was terminated.
Maybe at 4 Ave/9 St complex it was a old sign to show people that was the place to make the transfer from the IND to the BMT.
Correct me if I am wrong please, but during the early 80's, didn't the occasional rush hour QB train go to Astoria?? Tony
Well the "EE" went from the BMT 57th station to 71st & the QB did normally terminate at 57th.
IIRC, there were QB's that either originated from Astoria or ran to Astoria in the late seventies/early eighties.
Equipment for the QB was pulled from either the M (most times) or the RR, so most times it would be an R27/R30 or an R32 pulled from the RR.
Chris R27, you out there?
IIRC...At one time, the Museum set of R1/9s made a single trip each direction on the QB.
North AM/South PM.
;-) Sparky
Yes, you remember correctly. In the early 70s I think. I remember riding it once.
R-6:
R-4:
R-1:
and the pappy of them all:
1440 was part of that train, too. There is a photo in New York City Subway Cars of that QB train with 1440 as the lead motor.
Dupont Circle Station, Thanks for the photographic journey.
First photos, I've seen with the M for museum and tagged.
Steve B, yes 1440 which now resides at Seashore. I'll see
her and mate before seeing you in October. I'll give it a
love pat for you. They like the "A" train in Maine.
;| )Sparky
I've got to get up there someday and assume the position on that tandem. And if the doors were to open and close, that would be icing on the cake!
I can remember seeing quite a few R-42's (48-- and 49--'s) in QB service as well during that time. That service seemed so under utilized. The trains I remember seeing in the PM rush never seemed more crowded than having a few standees!!!!!! Tony
Very seldom did all the scheduled QB's run due to car shortage. On the AM, the first 2 which went to Astoria were priorities, the M was a priority because it ran every 10 minutes, and of course the D was a priority as well. But if too many QB's were missing, 10 minute M headways on the Brighton Local couldn't cut it (because of canceled QB's), so an occasional D had to be rerouted to the local, especially in the PM rush. With M trains going bad during the day, they had to use a QB set, so a QB interval was abandoned.
Yup, but this pre-dates my train experience. I can state that in 1986-7, a "Q" from Brighton Beach would run to Forest Hills after switching to the local track north of 34th St every morning. It was an R32 assigned to the N, with no grafitti, which is why the train stood out.
Most of my "QB" experience was just prior to the AB track closure of 4/86 and they always used R42's or R32's pilfered from the M or R.
During the late 70's and early '80's, there used to be trains laid up on the weekends on the Brighton Express tracks between Neck Road and Ocean Parkway, and I can recall some "QB" train sets among a sea of "M" trains, so there must've been a couple of "QB" only trains not taken from other lines. BTW, weren't there only about 6 "QB"'s on a given week day??? TOny
Yeah, about 6 IIRC. The neat thing about southern division signage up till 1986/7 was that the exact times were always included when pertaining to rush hour specials, the QB and the Nassau St. RR being the 2 lines in queston.
Right you are, and also the Forest Hills-Whitehall "N" trains had absolute times also. The only difference between the "N" specials and the "QB" and Nassau "RR" trains was that people actually UTILIZED the "N" Specials!!!!!!!! YUP, in the mornings, those "N" specials to Whitehall St were packed coming off the Queens BLvd Line!!!!! I recall that the "QB" and "RR" Nassau trains barely had the seats filled!!!!!! Tony
Believe it or not, I never rode on a QB, neither pre-Chrystie nor post-Chrystie. I did see one once, on a Saturday in October of 1967, as we blew past it at 23rd or 28th St. on our n/b N train. The first time I rode on a Q was in October of 1984.
I rode it once. It rarely ran before they closed the Manhattan Bridge in 1986, kinda like today's A to/from Rockaway Park.
During the timeframe you are describing, the first 2 AM QB's from Stillwell terminated in Astoria. The crews returned with dropouts to 36/4th and laid up to Stillwell Yard. On the PM, the first 2 RR layups at Astoria got changed over to QB's, went in service to Stillwell with RR crews aboard, then laid up underground to F3 south of 36/4th.
Bill, you bring to mind the AA/B jobs I worked in the early 80's. Report to 168 at 5AM. Make a round trip to World Trade, then make a B trip to Stillwell during the rush hour. By the time you got to Stillwell, it was after 9am and the B was terminating at 57th Street. B crews that signed on at Stillwell often ended their day at 168 in AA service. Those jobs were a hoot! You never knew which end of the city you would end up in.
I worked that kind of job on the PM. Had the same job as a c/r and t/o. Report to 168 and do the last AA to WTC (2:47 PM). Tough trip with 4 cars! D/H to Second Ave., prepare a B for service, go into service at Bway/Laf terminating at 57/6. Leave 57/6 for Stillwell, have lunch, return to 57/6. Finally, d/h to 168 for a roundtrip on the AA.
I used to hate those AA/B jobs because of all the scrambling we had to do. 4 cars on the first trip. 8 cars on the second trip. Finish on a different line. Used to pray for 2 trips on the D. At least I had a good idea that I would start and finish in the same place.
I'm sure we've all seen that high-rise apartment house built over the tunnel portal where the F train leaves the Smith/9th viaduct and again goes underground. I'm wondering if the city didn't have to build that building to accommodate those residents displaced by 9th Street subway construction. The high-rise is built above what is likely city/IND property, which leads me to this conjecture.
Either way, I wish they hadn't. It's an ugly building, which is very much out-of-place in the neighborhood, and it is not kept up very well either.
Perhpas it's public housing. That would make sense, since, like I said, it seems to be on "IND", and therefore government property.
(On a side note, this architectural abomination reminds me of those huge high-rises built over the Cross Manhattan Expressway at the ramp to the GWB. If you've ever seen pictures of the way the GWB approach in Manhattan looked when originally constructed, you would wonder what they were thinking. I guess the same thing they were thinking when they built all of those monolithic brick housing projects all over the place...)
The Post has this story today saying the track geometry car will make a test run this Saturday, followed by the first empty 10-car train on Sunday. If those work out OK, the story says in-service trains will run light around the loop after discharging passengers at Chambers between Sept. 2 and the official reopening date of Sept. 15.
Nothing about whether or not they'll restore regular 2/3 service on Labor Day, but if the 1 is going to South Ferry instead of New Lots, I suspect that will be the case.
Sounds like the midnight 1s will be going light around the loop, instead of terminating at Chambers on the express track and crossing the interlocking.
That makes sense -- a lot more sense than suddenly making a major service change without a prior announcement.
There are also some daytime 1's that turn at Chambers, but they have to use the local track, which leaves them little option but to run light up the express track to 14th before reentering service. Using the loop will allow them to take passengers at Chambers and run local to 14th.
Hmm, this is impressive for me as the construction crews have made good time on this project!!! Good job for everyone involved.
BTW, is there anyway to figure out who did the construction online? I'm a bit curious.
Interesting thing: I heard that TA workers were supposed to get that job but that Reuter was getting such a big headache from the Union that he awarded it to outside contractors. (Sorry, I don't know who did the work)
Hmm, interesting.
With that in mind, it's no surprise that it was so quick. If it were TA henchmen, it would take forever, considering other projects supervised by them are always in 'hiatus'.
"Interesting thing: I heard that TA workers were supposed to get that job but that Reuter was getting such a big headache from the Union that he awarded it to outside contractors."
There may or may not be an element of truth to that, depending on how corrupted the story got by the time you heard it. I am not saying it's wrong; I would view it with healthy skepticism. The major impetus was that the Governor agreed with the Mayor that this would receive high priority.
" (Sorry, I don't know who did the work)"
AJ Pegno and Tully Construction. I believe they have done a lot of work for the TA in the past. They are not rookies at this business.
Tully Construction was brought in during the emergency and did most of the reclamation work for the PA and MTA in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. The company was retained to avoid a potential delay for exactly the reaons you cite (infighting, inside vs. oustide labor, etc.).
Further, Tully had absolutely no experience in the field of new construction (opposed to demolition) and had to be thoroughly scrutinized by MTA to make sure they were up to the task. Not only did they gain the IRT restoration, but remain on site for the PATH World Trade Center restoration as well.
According to a project review, the partial collapse of the subway tunnel beneath 7 WTC and scope of required reconstruction, combined with desired rapidity of restoration, put the total effort outside the capability of what NYCT's inside forces. This is especially the case as the system needed to continue with its long, ongoing list of maintenece and improvement projects aside from the emergency restoration. As the Subways prove each weekend, there is always plenty of work for everyone.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Tully/Pegno hit the deadline and bid low. They are well set up to bid for future contracts, if they want to.
Remember, however, that in any TA Capital contract, much of the work is done in-house regardless, especially the track work. In addition, the contractor is given the right to call on a certain amount of TA Labor, which has its own budget. The capital program pays for $600 million a year in TA Labor, with much of this in MOW (Track work) and RTO (flaggers and work trains delivering supplies). Then there are all the TA engineers who have been on OT for the year working on the 1/9. A lot of hours, just in Signals.
Don't be surprised if full South Ferry service will be re-opened as part of the September 11 rememberance services.
Wouldn't suprise me at all. I'm sure the MTA wants to make sure everything is in order before doing it, since making the announcement and then having the track geometry train find a problem that would push back the opening would be a big PR embarassment.
Setting the date for Sept. 15 and then having a delay crop up wouldn't have nearly the negative symbolism a delay from a Sept. 11 opening would have, even it even an opening in late September or early October would still be an impressive achievment compaired to the original estimates for reopening the 1/9 line.
(Setting the date for Sept. 15 and then having a delay crop up wouldn't have nearly the negative symbolism a delay from a Sept.
11 opening would have, even it even an opening in late September or early October would still be an impressive achievment compaired to the original estimates for reopening the 1/9 line.)
Shows what can happen when you eliminate all the s__t, and have a contractor and construction unions putting out their best instead of chiseling where they can. If only the Second Avenue could be like this.
Thank You!!
Why are R-142's slanted sideways? The older stock do not have slanting meaning it's not because of a clearance issue. So why don't they make use of the maximum available space within the loading gauge?
AEM7
What do you mean?
Look on the main page foto today comparing R-142 with an earlier R. The R-142 has a sideways slant, the R earlier has straight sides.
AEM7
Where??
There http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/aboutimg.cgi?=slides=r143=r143-8101l.jpg
That is an R143. All the new BMT/IND cars since the R44 have a bulge at the beltline that actually INCREASES the interior space.
-Hank
R142:
Notice that the walls are infact very straight. Assuming of course that Bombardier got it right!
its a R143,
the R44,46,68,68a,110b,and 143 have curved sides
the R40/42 to a lesser extent do to, it is for clearance. in their widest spot, they are wider than the older BMT cars
Damn it, man!! Get your R142's and R143's straight!! lol.
Of course, R143's can get away with slanted sideways for the more space that they can accommodate. The R40 Slants, however....
Ah... but *that* is an R-143, not an R-142...
All B Divs since the R-40s have done that!
Elias
Exactly what I was thinking.
Maybe they finally decided to take George's advice and build it on a slant instead of holding it slanted.
The subway car has been improved over many generations.
Hello, I Would like to see the 6 Train On the Lexington Avenue Line should be extended from Chambers Street/Brooklyn Bridge to Brooklyn College/Flatbush Avenue on weekends and Late Nights. thats when the 5 Train Service is not in service at those times. The 5 at Late nights terminal at E.180 Street in The Bronx and on weekends at Bowling green. So, theres no reason why not to extended the 6 to Brooklyn College.
Absolutely NOT!!!!! So, how long will I have to wait for a train on Saturdays, HALF AN HOUR!!!
Increasing the frequency of #4 trains at nights and weekends is more realistic than extending #6 to Flatbush Avenue.
Also, extending #6 may confuse a lot of riders because of various terminals at different times. If the schedule works well, you can transfer from #4 to #2 without waiting for a long time.
Chaohwa
Now that night happen.Well i think its a good idea.But then 2 riders might complain.Esspecially with the 2 runnin local
visit the Amtrak modeling site at
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250/index.html
The 5 has different terminals at different times (Bronx, Manhattan, and Brooklyn), so what would be the difference?
#5's multiple terminals are already complicated. Do you want to add more complexity to #6 to confuse more riders?
Chaohwa
They did this before with the 6 in the 1970s. The TA didn't have a problem with this before (this is not just my idea, this is a past routing).
They indeed did that before. However, the riders were much confused. Since then TA has simplified the services not only on #4 and #6, but also on other routes.
Chaohwa
So, theres no reason why not to extended the 6 to Brooklyn College.
There's plenty of reason not to do that. One, weekends, the 5 could be extended (not that it should). Two, Late Nights 6 trains used to run only to 125th, the Bklyn Bridge extension itself is a blessing. Three, Service doesn't warrant it. What is the point of extending trains when no one will ride them? All you do is require more operating costs (train crews, maintenance).
Railfans seem to have this obsession with extending anything that can be extended. Even if it doesn't make any sense.
Railfans seem to have this obsession with extending anything that can be extended. Even if it doesn't make any sense.
There's an awful lot of railfans out there screaming that Amtrak service needs to be cut so they can have their favourite commuter rail and subways funded properly.
F**king railfans.
AEM7
Get away - express trains should have their own ROW built specially. I think I'd be with many railfans in cutting highway expenditure to fund that. Once the expresses are on proper lines, then good commuter trains can be run!
"There's an awful lot of railfans out there screaming that Amtrak service needs to be cut so they can have their favourite commuter rail and subways funded properly."
Didn't I also see some Amtrak fan (not you) say that Metro North service ought to be severely restricted so that Amtrak could save another 10 minutes between Stamford and New Rochelle?
Some people don't seem to have a sense of proportion.
no kidding then it winds up being really dumb.
Is it me or does the way shoen016 expresses himself/herself give the impression that he/she thinks that any of us can do anything regarding the suggested changes?
I don't know about the rest of you but that is the impression I get.
Now that I think about it, you're right. Perhaps she believes that we are affiliated with NYCT.
he or she.
It can't be done. The local track at Brooklyn Bridge ONLY leads to the City Hall loop, and must turn there, unless it comes in on the express track there, but that would cause congestion for the expresses. I guess it could work late nights, but it can not work on the weekends when the express will be effected.
The 6 used to go to South Ferry Late nights before. The 6 was cut from Lower Manhattan in 1980, but restored to Brooklyn Bridge from 125 in 1999.
Shouldn't the 6 be at least extended to South Ferry again during late nights?
The 6 could also be Bronx Express on the weekends if ridership continues to increase (but I will save that for another topic)
It makes no logical sense extending the 6 to South Ferry late nights. What kind of ridership will there be? What's the sense having direct Lex Ave. service to South Ferry during the time it is least needed?
Ask the MTA, they did this before, check one of the old maps from the 1970s.
I know that! The Bowling Green/South Ferry shuttle operated at that time during the day as well as the late PM/weekend 5 and midnight 6 was able to have the Lex serve South Ferry 24/7. I know that too! My point is it doesn't make any sense to have a branch of the Lex terminate at South Ferry during the deadest time of the day (12M to 6AM) and not the other times of the day. And before someone here suggests it, no, they can't run the 4/5/6 on the same track south of BB and have the 6 terminate at South Ferry! Too many trains.
It would be more realistic to have the 5 terminate at South Ferry. It should have been done after 9/11/01. The walk from Bowling Green to the ferry terminal can be a killer at times, especially most of the time, you see a boat coming and you will run through half of Battery Park to catch your boat. The run to Flatbush Ave can spare the loss of the 5 train temporarily.
I wonder why they didn't extend the 5 to South Ferry temporarily while they were fixing the Greenwich line. I believe it can use the outer loop (as the inner loop does not allow the doors to open properly.
Wondered about the 5 too; it has to turn anound there anyway, just a switch to the outer and back to the inner.
Are they actually doing anything to South Ferry Station? Like installing those new floor tiles or just rehabing the whole station
For a brief time after September 11, the "J" ran to 95th Street in Brooklyn in the place of the "R."
I might be wrong about this, but it seems to me that no other regularly scheduled, full-time NYC transit line, past or present, had a route that took trains into the same borough twice on a regularly scheduled trip. That 95th Street "J" started in Queens, ran in Brooklyn, entered Manhattan, and then ran BACK to Brooklyn.
I know that the "M" runs in Brooklyn after having already run in Brooklyn alongside the J/Z, but that's only during rush hours so it doesn't count.
None of today's lines do this.
A - Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens
B - Manhattan
C - Manhattan, Brooklyn
D - Bronx, Manhattan
E - Queens, Manhattan
F - Queens, Manhattan, Brooklyn
J - Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan
L - Brooklyn, Manhattan
M - Queens, Manhattan, Brooklyn* (rush hours only)
N - Queens, Manhattan, Brooklyn
Q - Manhattan, Brooklyn
R - Queens, Manhattan, Brooklyn
V - Queens, Manhattan
W - Manhattan, Brooklyn
1 - Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn
2 - Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn
3 - Manhattan
4 - Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn
5 - Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn* (rush hours only)
6 - Bronx, Manhattan
7 - Queens, Manhattan
Now, we're just trying to make up records....
"Here comes Johnny Doe to the plate. Bob, did you know that he has the most home runs when it rains on a Tuesday in April?"
Actually L goes Brooklyn Queens (before Halsey) back to Brooklyn Manhattan. Also M now runs full time.
Arti
Actually L goes Brooklyn Queens (before Halsey) back to Brooklyn Manhattan. Also M now runs full time.
LOL, I think you are splitting hairs with the L train thing. What is that like for 5 or 6 blocks? Actually you are correct but, I don't know if that should be included...although technically you are correct!
As for the M train. It's not a full time service. It runs shuttle on nights and weekends.
Chris
Yeah, 6 is about right.
BTW is Halsey entrance in Queens or rBrooklyn?
As for the J example, by the your M standards, it also cannot be included, as it run as a shuttle in Brooklyn at nights.
Arti
Full time as designated by New York City Transit is 6am-midnight, 7 days a week. Hence, the J does indeed count (the M misses the crucial 7 days a week thing)
I believe, unless things have changed the J doesn't run shuttle nights and weekends. It runs between Jamaica Center and Chambers Street. You may be confused about some recent GO's though, that had the J terminating at Myrtle-Broadway, and the M actually ran to Manhattan weekends. Normal service though has the J running 24 hours to Broad (or Chambers on Weekends) and the M running shuttle between Myrtle and Metro.
We were talking about J after 9/11 when it replaced R on 4th Ave.
Arti
yup.
Oh, yes sorry, I did read that post, but somehow got caught up on the "regular" service - my mistake. BTW, was the M running 24 hours to Coney Island via the Sea Beach 24 hours also after 9/11 also?
If I remember correctly it was still running as a Met Myrtle shuttle and between Stillwell and I think Chambers. Wouldn't it have made more sense to run M to 95th and J to Stillwell?
Arti
M went to Stillwell ALL TIMES via Sea Beach from 9/17 to 10/27.
I didn't realize that. So that means the Broadway El had two services, 24 hours, 7 days, during that period.
Well, between Myrtle Ave. and Marcy Ave., anyway.
Damn, you answered my question before I asked it!
The J (actually its alter ego, QJ) did it back in the 70s when it ran on the Brighton. If you weren't excluding rush hour service, the E would be in there from the 60s and 70s when it ran to the Rockaways.
So did the short-lived RJ in 1967-68. The post-9/11 J nearly duplicated that service. In fact, if the outer end of the Jamaica el were still intact, it would have been an exact duplicate.
The M currently does this, and has since 1973.
Can anyone tell me the only line which actually runs through 3 boros, but only has stations in two?
Can anyone tell me the only line which actually runs through 3 boros, but only has stations in two?
The L train.
The "M: runs from Queens, to Brooklyn, to Manhattan, and back into Brooklyn Rush Hours and MIDDAY HOURS.
How are they going to say that on the R143? They certainly can't say Brooklyn-bound anymore since in Manhattan, both ways are Brooklyn bound. Maybe it'll be interesting and will hear "Bensonhurst bound." And if they can't say Brooklyn bound on the M, I doubt they'll do it to the J b/c it may get confusing. They'll probably say Queens bound J even though Queens is two boroughs away.
Queens-bound works for northbound trains, but I can't imagine what southbound trains will say.
For that matter, what do real live C/R's say?
Well, don't know how others do it, but this is how I do it:
Southbound:
Metropolitan to Marcy: "Manhattan Bound M train..."
Marcy to Broad: "Brooklyn bound..."
Northbound:
9 Ave or Bay Pkwy to Court St: "Manhattan bound..."
Broad St to Met: "Queens bound..."
And nobody gets confused about the Brooklyn-bound bit in Manhattan? I'm surprised there isn't a standard announcement you're given in this case.
The one time I was paying attention, on a NB M in Manhattan, the C/R identified his train as an "M train going over the Manhattan Bridge." It's a mouthful but it gets the point across to anyone familiar with the route. (Then again, shouldn't the announcements make sense to tourists too?)
the C/R identified his train as an "M train going over the Manhattan Bridge."
More likely he said the Williamsburg Bridge. Either that or it was a weird rerouting!!!
Reversing through broadway lafeyette?
Nah, I think he meant Williamsburg Bridge - probably typing to fast and not thinking - I do it all the time.
Why would the M Train have to reverse at Broadway Lafayette to reach the Williamsburg Bridge?
The connection between the Sixth Avenue Line and the Williamsburg Bridge is from/to the north of the bridge. A train entering the Sixth Avenue Line from Brooklyn (via the Manhattan Bridge in the example we're working with here) would have to change ends (near W. 4th Street, really) to be able to access the Williamsburg Bridge.
David
Then this must be a really schizo thread - has the M Train ended up on the Culver in the mind of some people?
You are correct. Forgive me. I posted that on my birthday.
Was it that good? Happy Birthday for a few days ago!
"C - Manhattan, Brooklyn"
The C has a history of it's own.. It was the only line that ran in four borough..
"E - Queens, Manhattan"
The E had the longest route in subway history..
N Broadway
How much longer is the old E route (Rockaway to Manhattan to 179th) than the old C route, which I always thought was the longest. (Rockaway Park to Bedford Park Boulevard)?
Rockaway to bedford was a JOURNEY! A MOTORMAN MET ME IN TRANSIT MUSEUM SAID IT WAS 57 STOPS. COUNT THEM! 57!!!
36 miles, IIRC.
Really? How you figure that?
Former C = Miles?
Former E = Miles?
Current A = Miles?
N Bwy
The A from 207th to Far Rockaway is 32 miles. The CC/C from Bedford Park to Rockaway Park was close to that, too, if not slightly longer. The E from 179th St. to Far Rockaway was 36 miles.
They seem to all be pretty close to each other. If the A is 32 miles, the C has to be higher than that, and the E is 36 miles, that has to mean that the old E only has the old C beat by a mile or two, or was the old C actually longer than the E?
Perhaps the E was longer in mileage, but the C probably seemed longer, as it was a local all the way.
That's true. The E ran express in Manhattan during rush hours back then, not that it made much difference, and from 1966 to 1973 it also ran express in Brooklyn. That made the trip seem shorter.
I believe the longest trip generally possible on the subway, which corresponds to the old E, is actually 38 miles (acording to MTA figures).
Does anyone know of a list that shows the lengths of the various routes, like the F from Coney Island to 179th, or the M from Merto to Bay Parkway, etc?
"The A from 207th to Far Rockaway is 32 miles. The CC/C from Bedford Park to Rockaway Park was close to that, too, if not slightly longer. The E from 179th St. to Far Rockaway was 36 miles."
In comparison to the "A" line, the "C" wins hands down... even though the millage on the Far Rockaway line might be twices as long..
Understand, at one point, the C becomes a crosstown line when it enters the Bronx.. and the route that it takes up to Bedford Park might just be twice as long as the 207th route.
A Broadway Line
I don't know, but maybe someone else can answer that question... Any volunteers?
Well... if you look at any subway map, that ConCourse route is really short in comparison to the IRT lines that serve the Bronx. But it beats the A "207" route by a long shot!
N Broadway
The E line use to run from 179 Street Jamaica, through Northern Queens, into Manhatthan, down 8 Avenue, turning on Fulton Street, through Brooklyn, back into Queens, down to the Rockaways. This was the only line that ended in the same bourough it started until the 3 was cut back to 14 Street.
BTW: The line which holds the record for the shortest run is the 3. 45 minutes round trip.
Unless you count the rush hour/late night (3) trains which leave Manhattan and lenghten the trip of the (3).
The R line was a LOOOOONG one during last year's G.O. that suspended E service for the weekend, and had R trains running all stops local from Jamaica Center Parsons-Archer to Bay Ridge 95th. And that run was a killer too, especially if you were the unfortunate victim, like I was, to have to do 2 TRIPS EVERY WEEKEND!!! Ouch!! The price of being "extra extra" I guess :-) . But then again I like it because it helped toughen me to doing lines that are all stops "beating the wall". Now I can handle the A late night, the L, E late night, R in regular service, or any line that requires excessive beating of the wall!!
I know what you mean!! Im a veteran of now doing 60 stops on the beast from 241St to Flatbush. If u can survive that on a Redbird, u r a true NYCT C/R.
12 more days to go............
The only time I did a round trip Local with a Redbird on the No.2 Line was last year on a weekend G.O. It was hell two round trips with nothing but redbirds. This was in July of last year.
Its the only regularly scheduled, full-time NYCT line that I can think, past or present, that starts and ends in the same borough - Manhattan.
Doesn't it end in Brooklyn? (I'm referring to regular service, not anything associated with the 9/11 tragedy. We're getting regular service back Sept 15).
The Times Square Shuttle operates only in Manhattan, but that's a special case, I guess.
Its the only regularly scheduled, full-time NYCT line that I can think, past or present, that starts and ends in the same borough
Wrong. All three S trains start and end in the same borough, regularly. Want to be technical about it, the 3 is merely an emergency re-route, so it doesn't even count.
IMHO AA run only in Manhattan.
Arti
That is correct.
One minor detail: the AA didn't operate during rush hours.
The #3 does not run 24/7 so it cannot be called a full time line.
If we're talking past or present, for many years the 3rd Avenue El ran only in The Bronx.
If we want to get really technical, the Dyre Av line from Dyre Av to E180th St is a 24/7 line and it stays in the Bronx at this point. Anything beyond E180th is part time.
How'd you figure that? Full time means a line runs to that place only. It doesn't terminate only in Bx. full time, that's the important thing.
But it does operate from Dyre to E180 at all times. That has to count for something.
But it does operate from Dyre to E180 at all times. That has to count for something.
The Dyer Avenue Line used to be part of the IND! As such it TERMINATED in the Bronx! (And that was a full time regularlly scheduled line of the past!)
Elias
"The Dyer Avenue Line used to be part of the IND!"
When?
When the Board of Transportation started operating the line in 1941, it was operated with IND crews. That ended by 1957, when the line was hooked into the White Plains Road Line and through service began, though it may have ended before that.
DAvid
Well I believe that at one time the IND second system provided for a 2 Ave subway that would take over the Pelham, White Plains, and of course run the Dyre Ave line there also.
I guess that would have left the Lex with the Jerome line, and the West Side line with nothing.
for a 2 Ave subway that would take over the Pelham, White Plains, and of course run the Dyre Ave line
Of course it would probably have made more sense for 2nd Avenue to take over the 3rd Avenue El and the Dyre Avenue Line, leave Pelham with the 6 Train and increase service on WPR with the 5 train.
Even if you count this current (3) service, it still wouldn't count, some (3) trains end in the Bronx.
That may be true, but I don't think "officially" the 3 goes to the Bronx, at least I don't think it's mentioned in maps (like the few E's that go to 179th).
The old AA/K ran from the WTC to 168St.
-Hank
What about todays W.4th to Grand St. shuttle? What about the old R27/30 flat wheel shuttle from 57/6 to Grand St. in the '80's?
That was nothing Bill. The only thing worse then ENY R27s were the ones they painted red and sent them to Pitkin. Here is one attempting to make it Back to the yard. When used as refuse motors, they couldn't even haul garbage, they were hauled AS garbage. It sucked to see them scrapped with R10s at Nappy's.
Didn't that start and end in Queens at one point?
WOW! That's a good one. I never thought of that b/c it starts and ends in the same borough but doesn't stay within the borough. Good job!
What line are you talking about? I followed the thread up, but can't figure it out.
Sorry, you mean the former E.
Franklin Shuttle
Years ago the rush hour E ran from 179th to Far Rockaway of Rockaway Park. Both in Queens, but rush hour only.
The 3 sets a record every time I ride into
town on the 1... the 3 is the daresay ('express')
line which never shows it's face...
whilst the 1 manages to make it from 96 to 14st
before I even SEE a 3.. coming along slowly.
Headway-talk sweet nothings... This has been the case
at several differing times of day and on various
days of week... can't wait for the 2 to turn back into
(and act like) a 7th Ave Express!!
TOday at Labor relations I ran into One of our favorite sub-talkers Sub-Bus.He gave me the ok to post why he hasnt been on ,1)he had to hawk his computer 2)He is restricted pending investigation of sexual haraasment.Seems he was hit with 3 paternity suits at once and as we all know your guilty to proven Innocent at Jay st.But all in all his spirits were high and he was a pleasure to talk to ,So Sub when your webtv gets to you GOOD LUCK your friend Rush!!!!!!!!!!!!
What?!?
-Stef
I thought at Jay Street you were guilty AFTER being proven innocent.
[1)he had to hawk his computer]
He must've had ONE EXPENSIVE computer!
[2)He is restricted pending investigation of sexual haraasment.Seems he was hit with 3 paternity suits at once and as we all know your guilty to proven Innocent at Jay st.]
Yeah, I heard the ladies were lined up around the block to bear his kids...LOL!
Yeah, ok buddy. Whatever!!! Youre the reason why they put a wall up on the 5 line crew room at Flatbush, making it even smaller than it is. (To everyone else, this is a just a joke.)
Not my fault she wanted to see why C/R's are in charge of the train,Bus what you gonna do Hope you take spanish lessons
I see.... HAHAHA
New York City Subways by Tom Range
Format: Paperback, 128pp.
ISBN: 0738510866
Publisher: Arcadia Publishing SC
Pub. Date: September 2002
It is available at Barnes and Noble online :
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1BXR5WRB40&isbn=0738510866
I just put in my order. I will let you know what I think about the book when I get it.
BTW - Tom Range can be contacted at trangesr@aol.com.
Personally, I'll wait until the book comes out and people have reviewed it before I buy it.
I'll be waiting for your review!
Chicken!!!!!
:-)
Chicken nothing!
I don't want to pay $15-$20 for a book and after I read it I wish I'd left it on the rack!
True. Does anyone know anything about this author or any other books he may have written? The title is a bit general. What will the book focus on?
Alan Glick
I don't know him. Do you know what the book is about or why he's writing it?
Paul,
I haven't a clue. The guy usually hangs out only in the Straphangers Campaign board.
What car class looks best to you? My vote goes to the R-143
Where does your vote go?? This poll is NOT limited to NYCT. Railroads , the LIRR, and Metro-North are welcome here!!
Debate is welcome!
I'm NOT a troll! PLEASE respond! You fed Busfan, why not me???
In the current NYCT fleet I like the R40 slants.
The retired Fleet I like the R10's
As for Railroad/commuter trains, I feel the Coaster trains out in San Diego are some of the nicest looking trains I can think of, with the combination of their engines, coaches, and paint scheme (not to mention where they run - right along the ocean).
BTW, I don't know why you are so sad about the responses to your R142-R142A thread. It generated a lot of responses! You can't expect every subject to generate 100's of responses. It all has to do with subject. It's nothing personal - it's topic - some topics generate a lot, and some don't.
--BTW, I don't know why you are so sad about the responses to your R142-R142A thread. It generated a lot of responses! --
No it didn't, the thread titled " MORE differences between the R142 and R142A" generated less than 10 responses, and " Subtle Announcement Modifications" generated 0 responses.
Yeah, but that's after this thread (similar thread) - put them together, and it's a great response!
R142 Thread
Cool, Thanks for cheering me up!
Current NYCT fleet: R62/R62A
Best ever in NYC subway: R1-9 when new (in the few pictures I've seen), but they really did not age well.
:-) Andrew
Toronto's T-1s get my vote, but I like a lot of others, too, like Atlanta's MARTA trains. I like the Dallas DART light rail cars, too, and speaking of light rail, the N5s of SEPTA's route 100.
Mark
Surely you mean G1, not T1.
-Robert King
I'm not really expert on the model designations...I meant the cars currently in use. Plain though they are, I think the brushed aluminum and the classy TTC logo work well together.
Are the G1s the cars also known as "Gloucesters"? Those look very nice in the photos I've seen, but I never had a chance to ride them myself.
Mark
G1s are indeed the Gloucsters (as are the G2s, 3s, and 4s but for railfanning purposes only the G2s were really different). It's too bad you missed them, they were running in service well into 1990 although it was just one or two trains that late. You can definitely see how the design of the subsequent cars throws back quite a bit to the original G1.
-Robert King
My favorite train, I would have to say is the Market-Frankford M-4 cars.
Light Rail Chic
Except for the grungy cloth seats I'd put them on my list, too. I heard there was a plan to replace them with something that doesn't have to be dry cleaned. Any word on when that might take place?
Mark
the original worlds fair cars on the flushing line !! ( light blue )
man where they the most beautiful ever !!
th pe sysem of los angeles gets a vote too ..............lol
My vote goes to the Slants.
MY favorite looking nyct trains are as followed from best to worst.
R44/R46 pre GOH with the blue strip :-)
R143
R142
R32
R62
R68
R40
R42
WF redbirds
ML redbirds
LIRR
1.C3 Bilevels
2.M1 when new
Of the current T/A fleet, the R-40 slants gets the thumbs up, followed by the R-26/28/29/33/36 redbirds.
Of the retired fleet my all-time favorite are the Low-V's
Retired Fleet? The Triplex hands down. What a magnificent and majestic car that was. Today I like the R-32's but I will concede the R40's are close behind. Come to think of it, aren't they both currently residing on the best line of all?
The slants can be found on the N. I hear the R-32s are being pulled off and sent to Jamaica Yard. That would be unfortunate, since the R-32s have never really left the N since 1965.
At the risk of setting Fred off, I must report that the R32s are on the way off of the (N) line, and being transfered to the (E)(F) and perhaps the (C). The (N) is getting R40Ms and perhaps R42s from the (L) and perhaps also the (M), which can afford to lose them thanks to the arrival of the R143s.
(Whew! That's a lot of font colors!)
:-) Andrew
What other good news do you have for me? Well all good things must come to an end I guess. I love the R-32's, though.
The arrival of the R-143's is hardly what I would call good news. The only solace is I will be able to continue riding the R-32's on the "E".
Bluebird and Zephyr. Also R36 with World's Fair paint scheme.
My favorites:
--Kawasaki R142A/R143 (MTA NYCT)
--Bombardier Acela Express
--HBLR Kinkisharyo LRVs
--Kawasaki PA-4 (PATH)
--Comet/Shoreliner push-pulls
--Bombardier 01800s (MBTA)
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"Looks can be deceiving"
Appearance-wise, I liked the R-110B prototype a lot. I like the R-68's appearance, and Washington Metrorail's cars are definitely cool.
I do like the exterior of the R68's very much, but really hate the interior. They were probably nice when they were new, but they didn't age well. The windows are trashed worse than any other class, and even the mirrored interiors are scratched horribly. For some reason they are/were not as durable as the other classes. The R62's are sort of their cousins (very similar interiors), and aged much better.
Best EVER - The BMT Bluebird
Runner Up - D-Type Triplex
Current fleet - R-32
R-32.
New Tech - Shmoo Tech. Just put it in a box that looks like an R-32, with two handles.
NY the R-10's it wasn't just visual, it was visceral they just bellowed authority as they entered a station.
runner up the R-32's I like almost every BUDD rail product I've ever seen.
Outside NY I have a long term love for the CTA 6000's I guess your "first cut is the deepest"
and an honoable mention to the IC Electric MU's -- the green heavyweights not the souless current fleet.
The retired fleet were the 1300 gate cars, the BMT Q's the BMT standards,those cars did ride good,IRT hi V's & lo v's, for light rail i'd have to say the Toronto's CLRV's have the best design of any light rail car,no big ugly coupler sticking out in front of the car.
The R46.
I liked the old front end look, although I guess that will be for the 1970s and 1980s. I liked the idea that all the trains are supposed to look the same, or at least similar, unlike those 1960s car classes.
On the inside, the autumn leaves color scheme provides some color, though its muted. I like the black flooring on the R142-142, but I don't like the bright white walls and extremely bright lights, or the blue seats. Should have played off the black with gray, a milder off white, and black accents.
The R-40S, before all the safety stuff was added.
AS FOR SUBWAY A DIVISION I LOVE R62A BEST ON 42ND SHUTTLE. LOL IT REMINDS ME OF A AIRPORT SHUTTLE. ON B DIVISION R46 because of general appearance.
AND OF COURSE SINCE I WORK FOR METRO NORTH, I GOTTA SAY SHORELINER III AND SHORELINER IV rules because they really fly! if u have a good amount of all shoreliner III OR IV, with a good Genesis on the back u will fly! dont quote me on all shoreliners, i HATE the shoreliner I and shoreliner II, they are slower, and that middle door on the 3 and 4 series helps especially if u want crowds to exit faster like say at 5pm at GCT rush hours
I would have to say being from Boston it would have to be the #4 East Boston Cars (Blue Line) cars built 1977/78 bu Hawker Siddley.
My favorite are the "Q" cars of the Myrtle Ave. Line.
Lots to choose from... Pennsy's GG-1, streaking through the night with a string of tuscan red passenger cars... the Electroliner, charging through the snow up the North Shore... and for current equipment, Colorado Railcar's new DMU.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My vote goes to R32. I hope they die b4 me!
What about the worst looking units??!! From a purely insular point of view I'd have to nominate the old Victorian Railways swing door electrics, but that won't mean much to most sub talkers. How about, then:
the MBTA blue line 500s (if that's what they were called - there are pictures on this site in the Boston historical section and they look BAD);
the ex BMT C cars
What about the worst looking units??!!
I love the LIRR, but I just can't warm up to the new diesels. The bi levels are nice, but those DM/DE30's!
To me, the worst-looking cars were the BMT standards. They were over-the-hill by the time I first saw them.
In NYC, I'd have to say the post-GOH R44 and R46. Just big ol' slabs of greyness with puke yellow LCDs to add insult to injury. And that fake wood in the interior never was much of a look.
Honorable mention: The redbirds have a groan factor these days, especially on a hot summer day, that makes them at least feel ugly. Seeing one approach on a platform brings a promise of a jerky, bumpy, and noisy ride, and probably nonworking air conditioners.
:-) Andrew
Oh..and in the Historical NYC catagory:
Though I put the R1-9s in the "most beautiful" catagory, that was in the few pictures I've seen of them when new. But they did not age gracefully. A photo of R1-9 from the 1960's or 1970's is not a pretty sight.
The R10 was born ugly, and just got worse when they put the pseudo-Worlds Fair look on it.
:-) Andrew
...and whose idea was the "porthole" look on the R11 and R15? Very weird. Not as ugly as the R10, though.
:-) Andrew
been smoking???
jk :)
Nope. No dope. Ugly. Ugly Ugly.
On a side note, they may have once run well, but by the time I was riding them (1980's), they were poorly ventilated trash.
But besides that, they were ugly.
You heard me. UGLY!
:-) Andrew
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I didn't think the R-10s were beautiful per se, although the racing stripe scheme was fancy schmancy. What appealed to me was their sheer brute speed capability plus the fact they ran on my favorite route, the A. If you ever saw them rip past 81st St. in full flight, you know what I mean. They left no doubt as to who was boss.
Those of you who only saw and rode on the R-10s on the C will tend to remember them as being hot, noisy, and dirty. That's OK. I remember them on the A, when they were clean, and not nearly as loud as they were towards the end of their illustrious careers.
The R-10 was no faster or slower than any cars built afterwards.
NOISIER sure.
>>Though I put the R1-9s in the "most beautiful" catagory, that was in the few pictures<<
It should be noted that the BMT Triplex was the influence of the R1-9 design.
>>The R10 was born ugly, and just got worse when they put the pseudo-Worlds Fair look on it.<<
Interior or exterior ? Aa far as the interior goes, it had that late 40's streamlined look, especially in the ceiling. The little fans were a disappointment in the hot summer. Now as far as the exterior goes, the outside mounted window tracks detracted from its look. The "ogee" roof may have been inspired by the IRT World's Fair cars as you stated. But, that was the late 1940's.
Bill "Newkirk"
I happen to like the "corporate look." The R44,46,68 cars are (prior to the R143) by far the best looking cars in the fleet.
I happen to like the "corporate look." The R44,46,68 cars are (prior to the R143) by far the best looking cars in the fleet.
I like the corporate look with the blue stripe, as with the pre-GOH R40M, R42, R44 and R46, and the Metro-North and few remaining LIRR M1s and M3s that still have the stripe. The stripe helps to break it up. And the ridges on the R40 and R42 continue to break up the grey monotony too.
I also like the look on the R62 and R62A, which are smaller, and which have a unique look about them due to the odd mix of the MTA corporate look with A Division-required flat sides. Somehow the 62 series' look seems to me like the ultimate subway car.
It's not even that bad on the R68 and R68A, if only because of the shinier steel and the rollsigns. And I'm in the minority in liking the silver interior of the 1980's cars. I think it's cheery.
It's just the greyness and monotony of the post-GOH R44 and R46 that get to me. And the interior has a "greyness" about it too, in a less litteral sense. It's all so...blah.
:-) Andrew
:-) Andrew
I can't stand the looks of them damn R40-slant cars...even when they came out, they looked ugly, but when they added them safety features, it just made it look uglier...
Cleanairbus
My nomination for ugliest cars have to be the Cambridge Dorchester (Red Line) 01490 & 01491 with their strange looking "expremental" front ends
I can't help but agree with you on that one. And to make them look even uglier they put that bright metal trim around the elongated front windows so it really stands out.
I voted worst in the wrong category (wasn't thinking)
wayne
To me the ugliest looking are the 68's. The dark grey ends, vertically stacked head/taillights (only like it like that on the 32), the plain metal walls. And I kind of grew used to the flush plug door on the 44/46, the recessed end door on those 68's make the ends look even uglier.
I would have to say the ugliest trains (by far) are the R-142's and R-143's. With their black front faces, they emanate an almost demonic appearance. The red LED front sign just continues that evil look. I say send them back to Japan or Canada or wherever the hell they came from. UGLY, UGLY, UGLY! Bring back our Redbirds! Guaranteed, I will feel the same way about the R-160's once they are released - EVIL!
Correct Fishbowl, The R142's were made in Canada, And the R142A's were made in japan.
"send them backto...wherever the hell they came from"
You mean New York?... They are already in new york!
No, I mean back to their manufacturers. God knows, they're not from THIS country!
With all your devotion to the Redbirds, I assume you have joined the Transit Museum. And I congratulate you.
If you have not paid your dues to join the Museum, I say, "Shame on you!"
I am greatful such an organization exists. If it were up to me, I'd have a Low-V sitting in my backyard (just keep the nets and straightjackets away from me!) Perhaps in time, the Museum will have a Redbird fan trip (I mean, something, ANYTHING, to break up the monotony of always the D-Types).
I like the Transit Museum. I have visited on a number of occasions and have bought postcards, calendars, books and HO models of commuter rail cars there.
The HO models came from the Grand Central museum annex store.
BMT Type C car. Awful looking!
Newark's old PCC cars? (Sorry, never been partial to that look).
You don't like anything vintage, do you?
"You don't like anything vintage, do you? "
I liked the old cars they used to run on the D line in the 1960's - grew up with them. I liked the interiors. They're not my favorite, though.
I like vintage just fine in a museum. I don't like it in regular service.
The Redbirds in their current state (not including WF equipment).
They may have looked better when they were purchased, but the GOH ruined them. The GOH ruined the R-32 also, but it didn't truly make it an ugly car. The stainless steel frames around the windows look bad on a painted car, the windows with the swing-in top part also look stupid in the small form. On the inside, the ceilings that were modified for the air conditioning and new lights are bad with all of the plugged up holes.
Whenever I see an Redbird approaching on any line but the 7 where there is no other choice, then I have a feeling of dread. I never felt that for any old cars on the B-division. When I saw the R-32s running on the F in 1990, I thought they were newer than the R-46s! (I must say that I only saw them from the street, I didn't ride the F at that time).
Sorry, no competition. Nothing can beat the smooth art deco lines of London Transport O/P/R (and certain Q) stock families, which worked on the surface lines. Its a shame that they are no longer with us.
Examples of pictures at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~gsgleaves/london10.htm
http://www.cix.co.uk/~rosenstiel/trains/r49.htm
They are nice, aren't they? My other favourites are the 38 tube stock and the Gloucsters that were built for us.
-Robert King
1938 tube stock is about to be reseased in ready built form (00 scale, 4mm to 1ft) and the prototypes look very nice.
http://www.showbus.com/efe/index.html
By coincidence, either the O or the P stock was also built by Gloucester (the same one)?
Personally, I have a soft spot for most things designed in the 1930s...
The same one. Our G cars were based on the steel R stock cars.
Look at these beauties:
That top photo was in my college physics textbook! Did you say that you were an engineering student? Did you use Raymond Serway's Physics for Scientists and Engineers in your intro physics class by any chance?
Mark
The top photo can be obtain from IKEA, framed.
Yes, I did! It was also one of the heaviest textbooks I ever had. I didn't get that picture from there, but now that you mention it, I do remember it being there. That textbook actually had some pretty funny problems.
I still remember a rotary motion problem about Dizzy the Turtle and an inclined plane problem asking at what rate Santa Claus would slide off a roof under a given set of parameters. Great stuff. I always try to make my teaching just as fun.
Mark
Also, just now looking in the Fifth Edition, I found one about suction- a kid picking up a brick with a vacuum, accompanied by a picture of the kid ready to drop the brick onto his brother's head, and a killer octopus with a warnig "Experiments can be fun, but do not drop a brick on your foot, do not make an octopus mad." And another about fellow astronauts making fun of one who can't float towards the wall from the middle of the spacecraft.
Wow, those are some depressing photos! Where is it, and what's the story of the first photo?
According to "Physics for Scientists and Engineers" Fifth Edition:
The wall of the building did not exert a force on the moving train that was large enoughb to stop it
Sorry, that's all I know :-)
And the sign on what's left of the train station is in French, which narrows it down some, too.
Mark
The first photo looks pretty funny. Not the other two, though.
The first photo looks highly vintaged - must have been some accident. It brings a tear to my eye to see R1/9 carbodies being cut up like that. That was done right on the 207th Street property too IIRC. Those bastards!
LIRR RDC
I'm gonna split my vote in two, an interior vote and an exterior vote.
My favorite interior was the R44. The interior color scheme was a refreshing change from the ordinary, and I welcomed the return of forward and rearward facing seats. I especially liked the ones with the carpeted floors, but only while they were new and clean!
As for the exterior, until recently I would have said the R40 slant before the rebuild. That was a unique design, the railfan windows are great for kids, and I really liked those HUGE route letters on the front. Now, though, I have to vote for the R142/R142A/R143, simply for the front end.
Hmm, it has be the R62/A for me. Small, sleek and has that worn away stainless steel look. Am I also the only one who doesn't mind the kind of seating?
For me... it's always been the R-44/46 because of the overall shape and I thought the flush storm door looked much better than the recessed door on the other classes. I also think the R-143 is pretty sharp looking. The R-142's are not bad either.
Wayne
All-time: R-32s as delivered.
Runners-up: Flushing R-36s as delivered, R-10s in the racing stripe scheme.
Personally, I have a list of my fave trains:
- The Kinkisharyo Millennium (KCRC East Rail, Hong Kong)
...The very, very best. What else do I have to say? The first class cars are also very sweet.
- The K-Train (MTR Kwun Tong Line, Hong Kong)
...Yes, they suck operationally and can't line up with the platform screen doors, but they do look tres cool anyway.
- The Tung Chung Trains (MTR Tung Chung Line, Hong Kong)
...These babies roar down the Tsing Yi to Tung Chung section at over 105 clicks an hour. It's an excellent way to see North Lantau Island.
- The Meteor (Ligne 14, Paris Metro)
...Ooh, rubber tires and automated. Very high tech and very neat. The nice stations are a good accompaniment to them, too.
- The Millennium Line ALRV (Skytrain, Vancouver)
...The patrician amongst LRVs. Tres chic.
- The SD-160 LRV (C-Train, Calgary)
...the first new trains in Calgary in over 20 years, and is a refreshing change of pace.
And yes, I have to have something from NYC:
- The R-143s (L Line, New York.)
...What can I say? The L line IS my fave line in NY.
-J!
Here's some pics of some of my fave trains...
http://komachi.uhome.net/SP-1900-5.htm
http://www.hkmtr.net/Galleries_TCL.htm
http://www.hkmtr.net/Galleries_Nt.htm
Very high tech - don't fancy the seats though!
photography was not bad at all !! a tripod could have been used on some shots
i like the r110b the best, or is it the r110a...I'm talking about the fleet that temporarily ran on the A and C lines, I wish they still ran
THe R110B.
My favorite TA car class is R22. On railroads, Arrow III for NJT, Metro-North favorite is Comet III( a tie with SPV2000), and all M series on LIRR, minus M7: haven't rode one yet, so premature to judge at this time.
Interior: R-42
Exterior: R-33
I'm a nice fan of the R40 slants on the diamond Q. I just love how the ends are shaped, even though they preoccupy need space. It's a pity they're decaying with the curse of carbon steel on them.
R68s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder what type of response this one will have???
How do I tell the R68's from the R44/46? They look the same.
R44/46
tan/fake wood interior
brighter exterior
no mini cabs
curved sides
LCD side signs
R68/68a
stainless interior
darker exterior
mini cabs
angled sides
Roll side signs
OOOOOOOH! All these years I though the R68's ran on the R and E lines.
actually they did yesterday!!!!!!! i saw an R68 at around grand or woodhaven, not sure if it was a E,F,G,R,v, or maybe just diverted W or N
Why do the R44\46 have electronic signs while the newer R68's have rollsigns? It seems like the TA went back in time.
the 44/46s got them in 91. the 68/as were built in 85-89
Anyone have a picture of a pre-GOH roll sign on a R-44 or R-46?
look for cars
331 or 333(one of them shows an interior shot)
1228, and 1260
630 has an interesting front sign
The R44/46's came equipped with wiring that allowed for electically operated rollsigns, which were never installed. This wiring made the installation of the digital signs in the early 90's pretty easy. Putting these signs on the R62/68's would have been much more expensive. One must remember that the R68 was actually less sophisticated than it's 1970s predecessors.
I think that the original 1 peice signs were electrically controlled
Correct. The original R-44 and R-46 signs were electrically driven. They could be changed using a key to control the direction of the sign's travel. They also had bar codes to allow for central control of the signs, but that system almost never worked right.
David
Every sign in the R44/46 prior to their GOH was manually operated. I can't comment on when they were brand new, but I was under the impression these motorized signs were never installed.
The impression is incorrect. I saw them in operation.
David
They must have all been removed/deactivated by late 1985. Every sign by then was manually turned with the "key".
I was in Chicago today (I'll probably post a full report next week), and the trains there have remotely controlled rollsigns. (On the train I was riding, the signs were set to "Loop" one minute and to "Kimball" the next, with the T/O never having left his cab. I didn't actually see them turn.) I don't know the details of how the CTA's rollsigns work, but I wonder why Chicago could get them to work but NYC couldn't.
Denver's LRVs have remote controlled destination signs. The T/O enters a two-digit code into a hidden keypad above the windshield and all four signs in each car change simultaneously. Currently there are 13 different signs.
In case you haven't gotten this from the other answers, the R44 and R46 did NOT have digital signs when first introduced in the 1970's. They had the same rollsigns the R40 and R42 had when introduced, which could supposedly be changed all at once. The digital LCD disasters first came on the R44 and R46 with the GOH in the early 1990's.
:-) Andrew
Mirrored interior on the 68's as opposed to the Brady Bunch woodgrain on the R44-46's - and the windows are severely scratched on the 68's.
I have not read all of the posts. I wiil do so shortly.
My votes for worst goes to;
Current fleet:
R40 Slant with pantograph gates attached.
Past fleets:
H&M (PATH) G Class/PA-38 "owl cars" with third eye headlamp
Overseas:
LU 1992 Tube Stock (Central) AND D78 (District)
wayne
Railroads-- Superliner/other amtk bilevels, FL9
NYCsubway--
(Best)
R32/38
R62/as
R143s
R142/110A
R444668
R110B
R40
Redbirds
--
--
--
R42
(worst)
NYC alltime--
(all good)
Bluebird
BMT-700 series
IRT-40-241
BMT MS standard
BMT-B
R10
R1-9
IRT stanndard group
BMT D
BAD-
IRTEL- MUDC mod
R42
NYC- INTERIOR
(good)
(bad)
Well, my personal aesthetic favorites would be Chicago's 2000 series, which were retired earlier than might have expected due to accessibility problems inherent in their clamshell doors.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Eye loike the Hippos ..... N O T
I just purchased a sidewall destination sign for an IRT Redbird off of E-Bay. It arrived today and it is i mint condition. I am able to turn the signs by hand, but it is a very cubersome task. Does anyone know where I can acquire the wrench or the handle that TA crews use to turn the rolls?
If you want to contact me off-board, go ahead and do it at GeorgeDev@aol.com.
Thanks,
George Devine, Jr.
San Francisco, CA
For the amount you (likely) paid for that
cranker, it should have come WITH the wrench...
A thought for future sellers...
Sounds like those are side sign boxes that they removed the knobs so a key could be used to turn the signs.
The answer should be a hex key, usually found at hardware stores. They usually sell them in sets though. One of the larger keys would fit, but would have to be bent to form a crank handle. Other than that, a genuine crank that the conductors use would be the best way to turn the signs.
Bill "Newkirk"
The answer should be a hex key, usually found at hardware stores. They usually sell them in sets though.
I don't know enough about the signs to know if a hex key is the answer, but the larger sizes can be purchased individually from Sears... they also have the larger sizes available as attachments for your ratchet wrench (3/8" and 1/2" drive, at least, depending on the size of the hex head, also Torx bits in case that's what's needed).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
FYI, NYC and SAn Francisco are the two American entries chosen to compete for the 2008 Olympics. What would this mean for NYC transit improvements?
If NYC really wants to host the games in 2012, they better start building and rebuilding NOW!
Nah, they still have time -- when the VIPs, politicans and others put their collective minds to it, thngs can get built in a hurry, because red tape gets taken out in a hurry.
A Flushing line extension to Javits Center might not be done in as short a time as the MTA got the IRT repairs under the WTC site, but they could start as late as 2009 and still get it done by 2012 (and given enough clout, even the expected NIMBYs would be knocked out of the park.
Here's an article from cnn si: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/news/2002/08/27/usoc_bids_ap/
It mentions that all events would be available by rail or water, so nobody would have to use the roads. I think funding and construction of the second avenue subway will need to begin in 2004, that is the only way to have it open by the summer of 2012. -Nick
(Here's an article from cnn si: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/news/2002/08/27/usoc_bids_ap/
It mentions that all events would be available by rail or water, so nobody would have to use the roads.)
I saw a detailed presentation on the plan while at City Planning. The Olympics has three streams of people -- the fans, the VIPd and athletes, and the media. Because of security concerns, the VIPs and athletes are the hardest. The plan is to have all the venues on the water or on the LIRR/NJT, and run special ferries and trains to move the athletes and VIPs around. As for the fans, all the venues would be near rail transit, and all the times would be off peak. It is assumed that by running rush hour service through the games, the fans would be no problem.
By 2008, the Manny B is open, AirTrain is running, and several stations have finished renovations. The new LIRR tunnel to GCT will probably be finished, along with the connecting tunnels in Sunnyside Yard, but unless they move up the schedule, the new GCT LIRR station won't be ready yet and neither will the new tracks and signals.
I think there is an outside shot the new Sunnyside station might be ready to serve Penn-bound trains, though.
The Second Av line will be under construction, but not in service, obviously.
"The new LIRR tunnel to GCT will probably be finished, along with the connecting tunnels in Sunnyside Yard, but unless they move up the schedule, the new GCT LIRR station won't be ready yet and neither will the new tracks and signals."
Woah, I've been out in the dark if I missed the approval to this costly, but good project idea. -Nick
The 63rd Street Connector project's work included extending the LIRR tunnel to Sunnyside Yard.
Bidding has started on $200+ million of TBM (Manhattan-side) and open-cut (Queens-side) work.
Actually, construction was going on before then - workers opened access to the Queens side bellmouth, a building in the way was demolished etc.
Chewck MTA's website.
Ok, I will..thanks for that information! -Nick
Congrats to NYC! Out of the cities on the list, it is by far the best choice. Houston? May as well hold the Olympics in the parking lot of a suburban strip mall, and maybe they could even get Enron to sponsor some events. Washington would have been okay, aside from the fact that too many lawyers and politicians hang around there. San Francisco seems like a cool city and would be a nice candidate, but there isn't really anything SF has that NYC doesn't have much more of. Here's hoping that NYC is selected as the finalist for the US, and wins out over the international competition.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Congrats to NYC! Out of the cities on the list, it is by far the best choice.)
The best among those that applied, but the second best overall. I'd have put Chicago first. Why? Manhattan and the NY region is more crowded, and more prosperous, and more expensive.
Chicago has a big transit system like New York -- but fewer people are riding it. It's sort have become a forgotten city outside the Midwest (more people probably think about Houston than Chicago), and can us the international exposure. Just build a new subway spur over to that big park on the waterfront, and put most of the venues in there, including a new stadium at Soldier field.
The U.S. field has been narrowed down to NY and San Francisco. Looks like New York is the least expensive, least congested city left! The only way it loses is because the Bay Area has more venues already built.
What foriegn cities are NYC and San Francisco competing with? Hopefully if NYC looses it, hopefully at least San Francisco will get it so at least it's in the US. Of course I hope for NY first, but I rather see it in SF than not in the US at all.
(What foriegn cities are NYC and San Francisco competing with? Hopefully if NYC looses it, hopefully at least San Francisco will get it so at least it's in the US.)
The Olympics tends to move around the world. NYC was rooting for Beijing in 2008 instead of Toronto, because if was in North America in 2008 it would have been elsewhere in 2012.
I think London, Paris and Moscow are in. But if they want to come back to the Western Hemisphere, Rio is competition, though Brazil is broke.
The good news is that the global decision isn't for a while. If NYC is going broke, we'll know it by then, and can back out. If NYC is coming back strong, THEY'LL know it.
(Of course I hope for NY first, but I rather see it in SF than not in the US at all.)
I'm somewhat indifferent, myself. I'd be willing to put up with it, if it didn't cost much, but it wouldn't change my world. NY is capable of creating its own homegrown events and having them grow into international events, as it did with the Marathon, the U.S. Open. Cheaper and better for the city in the long run.
You'd better add some stiff competition from Canada if we lose the 2010 Winter Games to Austria, boys.
Even if NYC wins the right to bid for the USA, you might have to face a challenge from your bestest bestest friends north of the 49. If we do lose the 2010 Winter Games to Austria, look for either Calgary/Edmonton or Toronto to be putting in a bid for Canada.
And since 2012 won't be awared until AT LEAST 2005, any bid we'll have will be ready. Cross your fingers for Vancouver winning the 2010 games, I'd hate to have a Canada/USA bidding war though. I mean, we ARE friends, right?!
(Even if NYC wins the right to bid for the USA, you might have to face a challenge from your bestest bestest friends north of the
49. If we do lose the 2010 Winter Games to Austria, look for either Calgary/Edmonton or Toronto to be putting in a bid for
Canada. And since 2012 won't be awared until AT LEAST 2005, any bid we'll have will be ready. Cross your fingers for Vancouver
winning the 2010 games, I'd hate to have a Canada/USA bidding war though. I mean, we ARE friends, right?! )
I'd rather see the games in Toronto. I mean the cost of 1976 Olympics just about wrecked Montreal, which was riding high as one of North America's most exciting cities at the time (the language and secession issue didn't help). The possible cost: I want no part of it. I'd gladly travel up to Tornoto to avoid it.
London is definitely competing. The new facilities would be out to the east in the former docklands area - where fortuitously the Jubilee Line extension has already been built! However, the arguments and delays about rebuilding Wembley stadium [originally built for the 1924 Olympics (8-) ] may harm London's chances. Personally, I feel the UK is much too London-centric, and the UK government should give proper backing to Manchester as an Olympic site.
However if SF has another earthquake, NYC might get it anyway.
Not to mention that NYC has fewer hills! -Nick
>>> Looks like New York is the least expensive, least congested city left! The only way it loses is because the Bay Area has more venues already built. <<<
I do not see how San Francisco could handle the Olympics. It is a very crowded peninsula with only one long bridge and one subway line to the east side of the bay. Traffic is congested and public transportation in the city is already crowded at all hours of the day. Hotel space is limited. New York could handle the influx of people much better than San Francisco. Holding the Olympics in San Francisco would be like holding the Olympics in Manhattan, but closing all the tunnels and bridges except one across the East River.
Tom
I've ridden on a BART train during moring rush hour from Market St, and it was nearly empty. Even if it gets crowded, they could remove many of the seats to allow for more standing room. This is what MARTA did, and they put the seats back after it was all over.
Well probably many of the events would not be in San Francisco proper, but various locations throughout the Bay Area (i. e. Stanford, UC Berkeley, Oakland Coliseum, etc.)
(Well probably many of the events would not be in San Francisco proper, but various locations throughout the Bay Area (i. e. Stanford, UC Berkeley, Oakland Coliseum, etc.)
I've heard that Stanford Stadium would be rebuilt as the Olympic stadium. That's East Bay, isn't it? Bloomberg's "small town" crack is unfair: the Bay Area has over 6 million -- still small compared with NY's 20 million but the fourth largest Metro in the country. San Francisco proper is the equivalent of Manhattan; it just never annex Oakland (ie. Brooklyn) and San Jose (ie. Queens).
"I've heard that Stanford Stadium would be rebuilt as the Olympic stadium. That's East Bay, isn't it?"
No, it's the Peninsula, south of the city.
"Bloomberg's "small town" crack is unfair: "the Bay Area has over 6 million -- still small compared with NY's 20 million but the fourth largest Metro in the country. San Francisco proper is the equivalent of Manhattan; it just never annex Oakland (ie. Brooklyn) and San Jose (ie. Queens)."
The Bay area is far more sprawling and less concentrated on one city than the NYC area is. Oakland is a lot further from SF than Brooklyn is from lower Manhattan, and San Jose is MUCH further (about 50 miles).
San Jose is to some slight degree a suburb of SF, but not much more so than Philadelphia is a suburb of NYC. San Jose is a major center in its own right.
There are many other measures by which SF is really a far smaller Metro area than NYC. Certainly the number of people who work in SF is a tiny fraction of those who work in Manhattan.
>>>San Jose is to some slight degree a suburb of SF, but not much more so than Philadelphia is a suburb of NYC. San Jose is a major center in its own right.<<<
But Philly is 90 miles from Manhattan. Fifty miles each way can be considered a fairly reasonable commute. Ninety miles each way can't. The SF Olympic team is also looking to hold events in Sacramento and Monterrey. Now that's a little far, I would think. Definitely not commuting distance. It might be good to have a couple of high-speed rail lines to bring people from SF to those venues.
Bloomberg hardly helps NYC's case by insulting the city he is in competition with.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Coming back after some time) I think NYC will not get the Olympic final bid, mostly because everyone knows the NY politicians will never be able to get their act together (the upcoming Athens Olympics will likely be a debacle of uncompleted facilities and infrastructure: the whole thing might be emergently moved to Montreal or Sydney).
The tanked economy also adds to the equation. I actually think San Francisco (and the whole Bay Area) would have been a better bid.
Recent American Olympics have all been privately funded and have turned a profit.
(Recent American Olympics have all been privately funded and have turned a profit.)
Done believe what the boosters say. They turn a profit because of extensive use of existing facilities. In New York, the Olympic Stadium is classified as an "existing facility" even though it isn't there yet an the public cost of it will probably exceed the entirety of privately financed construction.
(Coming back after some time) I think NYC will not get the Olympic final bid, mostly because everyone knows the NY politicians will never be able to get their act together (the upcoming Athens Olympics will likely be a debacle of uncompleted facilities and infrastructure: the whole thing might be emergently moved to Montreal or Sydney).
The tanked economy also adds to the equation. I actually think San Francisco (and the whole Bay Area) would have been a better bid.
I have to agree. Even the most cursory study of New York public works construction - the Second Avenue subway debacle is hardly a secret - shoud convince the decision-makers that the city will never be able to get the essential work done by 2012.
Losing the Olympics would not be a tragedy, but it would remove a powerful incentive to extend the 7 train westward. I don't believe that the desire to provide subway service to the Javits Center is enough of an incentive.
I have to disagree with both of you. Much of the developement for the olympics will be privatily developed and payed for.
For instance the NY Jets are paying for and in charge of building the olympic stadium on the west side. Although it is not talked about much there is a backup plan to build a the olympic stadium near shea stadium if the west side plan falls through.
The olympic village is actually the much anticipated private apartment developement called queens west which currently has two building already finished
Bloomburg is not the average ny politician. The average NY politican practices the no change is a good change attitude which has led to the lack of meaningful developent of projects.
Bloomburg has done more to clean up the NYC education system in teh last 12 months then any mayor has done in the last 30 years. The secret of getting projects done is not to let the naysayers stop you from doing whats right. The olympics will put NY back on the destination list of high spending foreign tourist which provide for thoudands of jobs for New Yorkers.
The MTA's problem is similar to the old board of ed. A faceless board is hard to pin political responcibility of failure of a project on a specific elected official. IF the MTA would illiminate it's board similar to the board of ed and the govenor would stand up and take responcibility the secound ave subway will quickly become a reality. We would also see a meaningful reduction in the mta workforce at all levels to acuratly reflect the need of the riding public
(Much of the developement for the olympics will be privatily developed and payed for. For instance the NY Jets are paying for and in charge of building the olympic stadium on the west side.)
The actual plan calls for the city to cover part of the cost of the stadium, and all of the cost of the platform on which it sits. Public cost, $600 million plus over-runs. The claim is that it's free because building the stadium and Flushing Line extension will lead to development, whose taxes will pay for both the stadium and the extension. But build the extension without the stadium and you get even more development and taxes. Plus, the city bears the risks.
(Although it is not talked about much there is a backup plan to build a the olympic stadium near shea stadium if the west side plan falls through.)
From your lips to Gods ears. The Jets and Olympic committee could probably pay for the stadium out there, without city money. I'm not a chauvanist -- what if NJ was willing to build a rail extension to the Meadowlands and the Jets and Giants were to build the new stadium in NJ with no NY money? I say go for it. Finally, why not put it on Randalls Island, and send a spur off the Second Avenue over there? One way to get it built, and you don't need a platform.
I agree that that a stadium could be built out in queens for less then the cost of the platform alone. The stadium is sexy-er in the city. Plus having it in manhattan will make it easier to attract big events like the super bowl and the final 4. Javits next door and the garden a few blocks away make perfect venues for the fan fests. Having all the venu's close together will midagate the weather issue which keeps these big winter events away from NYC. Will these costs offset the increased cost of the stadium platform. YES. People who come to these big events come with the plans of spending big.
Extendng the 7 line alone to the west side would not bring immediate incrimental tax benifits without the olympics.
why?
without the olympics there will not be enough political will to get the project done.
In addition the Olympics will be a lightning rod for development spuring the development sooner in order to cash in on the events cache. Look how long it took to redevelope 42nd street which has numerous transit lines running below it. Extending the 7 line alone will generate no tax bennifit. Why would a developer pay more to develope out in nowhere's land. Bloomberg's plan is to build infrastructure on the west side to seed the community. This would be almost impossible to do without the olympic stadium to justify the expenditure. The infrastructure includes park's as well as the new subway spur
"Randalls Island" stadium. Interesting thought but it will never happen.
Thinking of train spurs to islands. If the city would allow casino gambling on govenors island. The city could extend a subway line to Staten Island with a stop on govenors island. In exchange for the casino's being allowed to set up shop on the island they would need to kick in a few billion dollars to the construction cost. Plus gamblers leaving the island would pay a special govenors island fare of say $5 which would cover the rest of the construction cost which would be in the tens of billions to build such a long harbor tunnel. Weekly and monthly metrocard holders would not be charged the premium allowing the city to covertly charge non-residents more. Of course tourists could buy weekly passes. Either way the MTA make out ahead.
The city would save millions of dollars a year illiminating most SI express buses and removing traffic from the crowed highways which also saves the city money
If the city would allow casino gambling on govenors island. The city could extend a subway line to Staten Island with a stop on govenors island. In exchange for the casino's being allowed to set up shop on the island they would need to kick in a few billion dollars to the construction cost. Plus gamblers leaving the island would pay a special govenors island fare of say $5 which would cover the rest of the construction cost which would be in the tens of billions to build such a long harbor tunnel. Weekly and monthly metrocard holders would not be charged the premium allowing the city to covertly charge non-residents more. Of course tourists could buy weekly passes.
An interesting idea. I gather the current idea is to convert GI to a City College Campus, so that other CC sites can be converted into public school sites.
Selling a 50 year lease on the island with 'rent' being new subway tunnels might work. I'd insist on four tracks of tunnel, two going to Atlantic Ave, the other to Ellis/Liberty and finally SI. The tracks would connect to the 8th Av local and/or the BMT Broadway or the Water St run of the 2nd Av.
I think if NYC got the 2012 Olympics they could get it done for one reason -- public humiliation of elected officials. Nothing motivates our leaders to get things done more than being faced with the humilation of being labeled incompetent by the general public, and nothing motivates them more than to come up with a project they can receive the lion's share of credit for which can then by turned into political capital.
No city or state politician has enough invested in the Second Ave. subway to ever become the driving force to get the Second Ave. subway built -- it's not going anywhere special that the world will focus it's eyes on at a specific time, and while a full-length line would be a major benefit not only to East Side commuters but (depending on the connections) to those in the Bronx and Brooklyn, the preceding construction involved would likely turn off some east side voters and cost whoever's in power at the time votes, while the schlub who gets elected 4-5 years down the line would earn the praise when the thing finally opened.
A 7 extension tied to the Olympics, on the other hand, would be closer to the work the MTA did to get the 1/9 extension reopened in time for this past November's general election. It was a high-profile project in a non-residential area that was a definite benefit in terms of positive publicity to the politicians involved. The 7 route from Times Square to Javits, whichever path was chosen, would go through mostly commercial areas, and would be a high-profile project as the Olympics approached. The politicians involved with the start of the project probably won't be there by the time it's finished, but the pols/business leaders who are appointed to whatever NYC Olympic Organizing Committee that is formed would be the ones who would drive the project to be completed on time (and going by the Los Angeles and Atlanta examples, those committees are usually headed by very well-connected and politically influential people).
It's pretty impressive, that NYC made it to this point. Of course, I hope NY wins and there is no city like NYC, but San Francisco is some tough competition - it's a great city with a great transportation system!
I had the year wrong. Sorry.
OK. So I should amend my previous response. By 2012, you should be able to ride the LIRR to Grand Central Station, and the first segment of the Second avenue Subway should be open for business.
Odds on rail access to La Guardia by then?
By what means? I assume you mean by the BMT-Astoria tracks?
I think NYC already too busy to host it. I have first hand knowledge of Olympic crowds. In Atlanta, MARTA subway went from having 275,000 riders per day to 1.5 million during the Olympics. MARTA runs nowhere near its potential capacity on normal days, plus it was running 24/7, so it was able to handle the extra riders fairly easily. Does anyone really think that NYCT and the rest of the MTA could handle 1 million+ additional riders on already overcongested lines? How about the complexcity of the system? Most complicated subways around the world have straightforward end-to-end routes (ie, Paris, Moscow, Mexico City, somewhat London). Sure, there will the people who figure it out, but the majority, coupled with their limited English, will have a hard time trying to navagate three routes that run on one track, for example.
And as an outsider of San Fran and NYC and visited both, I must admit that San Fran is more picturesque. So I believe the Queen City by the Bay will get the US nomination.
"Does anyone really think that NYCT and the rest of the MTA could handle 1 million+ additional riders on already overcongested lines?"
No, which is why I've said that construction on the second avenue subway must begin by 2004. The groundbreaking should probably be done before the IRT Centennial. -Nick
"Does anyone really think that NYCT and the rest of the MTA could handle 1 million+ additional riders on already overcongested lines?"
No sweat, as long as major events don't start or end at the peak of rush hour. Unlike Atlanta, NYC has the rolling stock to handle that number of people.
"but the majority, coupled with their limited English, will have a hard time trying to navagate three routes that run on one track, for example."
It's not expensive to put up big signs that say "This way to the main Olympic Stadium." They did that for the World's Fair too. They can put up temporary signs on the rolling stock too in cases where some trains go to a stadium and some don't. Maybe if there are multiple ways to get to some of the lesser venues, they'll only put up signage for the easiest way.
What's expensive is building the venues that will be needed.
You're right.
"What's expensive is building the venues that will be needed. "
And don't forget police overtime...
Well, but police overtime is many millions per day for two weeks. That's easy to justify based on increased sales tax receipts. The venues are billions and harder to justify economically.
Olympic economics are always controversial. Will the increased tax receipts equal the cost of services? I certainly hope so. I believe past Olymoics have resulted in some being in the black, and some being in the red.
I hope that new venues being built can benefit New Yorkers after the Olympics are over. Perhaps that hope is not entirely realistic, esp. with their cost.
And what are the chances that the tourists will only use the subway for going to a from an event and stay in their hotels the rest of the time? If NYCT has the rolling stock, how come they can only afford to run four cars on the G?* And MARTA did have the rolling stock, that's why I said they handled it fairly easily. Also, there were many venues outside of MARTA subway areas, so the million+ doesn't count the many who had to use buses. Since NYC has more subway density, you'll have many more riders than just a million+.
*-yes, I know they are ordering more, but you said it in the present tense. Besides, all the cars in the world won't help improve the minimum headway, which is already being used everywhere tourists will go.
"And what are the chances that the tourists will only use the subway for going to a from an event and stay in their hotels the rest of the time?"
Most NYC hotels are in Manhattan. Tourists who travel during rush hour will be traveling against the most crowded rush hour direction.
"If NYCT has the rolling stock, how come they can only afford to run four cars on the G?*"
That's during rush hour. Outside of rush hour, there is plenty of surplus rolling stock.
And that's changing, as new rolling stock arrives.
Whatever you do, if the Games are awarded to New York, don't make the mistake Coloradans did and reject a ballot proposal. To make a long stoey short, Denver was awarded the 1976 Winter Olympics in 1970, then in 1972 a ballot proposal concerning financing the Games was shot down by voters. Basically Coloradans told the IOC they didn't want the Games. Although the IOC denies it, they have long memories. Denver bid on the 2002 Games, but didn't make the cut. Basically the IOC told Denver, you didn't want the Games after we awarded them to you, we won't award them to you again. Denver will never host any Olympic Games again - not during my lifetime, anyway.
Maybe this will mean NY will finally get the 2nd Ave subway built, with all of the fixins'!
-J!
After hearing about the Olympics coming to town I got the urge to do what I do best. Ask questions.
1. If the Olympics come, will the Second Avenue finally be built or will it once again take a back seat to some inferior project which will be useless.
2. If the Olympics come, will the Lexington Avenue line get any repairs needed before 2010
3. If the Olympics come, will Chambers street get it's needed repairs that's been extremely over due?
4. If the Olympics come, How would Bloomy get the money for the village?
Hold your horses. If NYC wins over Frisco to represent the US Olympic bid, it still has to beat out the foreign cities who want it.
I do think it would help lend some urgency to transit projects...
Only God knows. Our politicians like unfunded mandates, so they will huff and puff about improvements, then only fund a study of the improvements listed. Of course, Bloomberg could fund Olympic Stadium on his own...:)
(1. If the Olympics come, will the Second Avenue finally be built or will it once again take a back seat to some inferior project
which will be useless. )
Advocacy for the Olympics is one reason Bloomberg said the Flushing Line extension is more important than the Second Avenue Subway.
(2. If the Olympics come, will the Lexington Avenue line get any repairs needed before 2010)
This has nothing to do with the Lex line.
(3. If the Olympics come, will Chambers street get it's needed repairs that's been extremely over due? )
No effect.
(4. If the Olympics come, How would Bloomy get the money for the village?)
The Olympics itself would pay for everything except the Flushing Line Extension and the Olympic Stadium, about $3.0 billion. The plan is to upzone the whole west side for high density redevelopment, and use the resulting tax revenues for these improvements. Of course, if the development doesn't occur you're still in the hole for $3.0 billion. And you can have the development without the stadium but with the Flushing extension, and use those tax revenues for schools or parks.
Big "if"
Aasuming NYC gets the olympics in 2005, then the feds would fund the Second Ave subway plus JAvits extension of 7 and possibly extension of L to Javits(discussed only here.)
When Atlanta got the olympics the feds helepd build MARTA extensions- think the Buckhead line was fudned by the feds. Rob- can you chime in here! The feds also had many cities send new buses to Atlanta to help the people movement.
here again the big "if": I expect NYC would probably run full service (mid-day or better) during the entire olympic period. I also expect the feds would probably help with more subway cars and possibly with the overtime for RTO.
I am not in planning and dont know anyone on this board that is, but I am sure they have plans in place onw hat to do if NYC gets the Olympics.
No my opinion-- I do not expect we'll get them. I read that Vancouver is aleader for the 2010 Winter Games and the IOC likes to spread the games among the continents menaing other than North America.
I read that Vancouver is aleader for the 2010 Winter Games and the IOC likes to spread the games among the continents menaing other than North America.
Doesn't actually happen. From 1976 to 1988, either a summer or winter Olympiad was held in North America each Olympic year.
In 1992, both types of games were in Europe. In 1994, the winter Olympics were again in Europe, and that's after only 2 years!
Copy and Paste this: http://www.hda.net/transport/trans41.html
These Degins are cool, it seems that Alstrom and or Kawasaki, and the MTA go to this company for designs. It's amazing looking at these concepts, what do you people think?
IMHO, the LIRR exterior is gorgeous, but as far as the subway interior shots, I prefer the R142s and R143s that we already have.
Obviously, many of the concepts illustrated have been adopted in rolling stock now arriving.
The LIRR design is attractive.
Notice that the Genesis locos look like the design pictured.
I like the LIRR Train! Very nice and seemingly practical.
Completely on another topic - Christopher, whatever happened to your 2nd Avenue Plan? The link "http://www.beaconschool.org/~crivera/2001secondplan/index.html" in the archives seems to be dead - is it online somewhere else? It sure was a good plan from what I remember.
Yesterday, around 9AM, everyone had to exit the trains at E. 180th because of a stalled train at 149th Street, 3rd Avenue. It was so bad they told us to go take buses. Anyone know exactly what happened?
This is beginning to get pathetic, so much so that I won't even bother saying the usual " DAMMIT BOMBARDIER, CAN'T YOU DO ANYTHING RIGHT!!!". I'll save that for the next pull apart. :: sighs::
I also head a 4 train around noon yesterday died in Joralemon St. Tube.
On Monday, I was stuck in the northbound Joralemon Street tube for 35 minutes because of signal problems. We had a very good crew on the train which kept us informed. However, the age of the signals are starting to catch up...may want to fix it before Bloomberg gets stuck on the train and bugs out.
They said it was due to the signals. I guess they froze or something. I was on a 2 train that sat at Jackson Avenue for 20 minutes. Finally I got off and went downstairs to take the Bx4 bus. That bus route ends one block east of Third Avenue (why can't it go all the way to Third?). I walked two blocks to 149th Street & Third (dodging a whole pile of garbage strwen on the sidewalk!) to catch a very crowded Bx19 bus, which I took to 145th & Lenox. I transferred to the 3 train there. Of course I was an hour late to work, thanks to those tired old IRT signals and my day didn't go so well. Oh well...
This is sortof off topic but speaking of being late for work
Are employers in NYC pretty understanding when employees are late due to the subway having problems? Being from a small GA town I don't have to worry about gridlock or slow subway trains but I was just curious.
I've seen NJT and PATH pass out letters saying "Yes, we had a problem" , apparently for commuters to give to the boss to explain why they were late.
But I don't take the subway enough to know.
One of the things that drove me out of the city myself was precisely this. Most employers, when told "I'm a half hour late because there was a dog on the tracks" just didn't buy it. Standard response was "you should leave earlier and if you're late again, you're out of here." By 1974, I'd had my fill of it all. Now that the subway largely works pretty reliably, I doubt it would buy you a thing if you happened to be stuck in a train that lied down unless it only happened to you once a year or so.
The ONE good thing about working for the transit authority was that they could CHECK your story easily and if you had the route, lead car number and time and location of the event, they could verify and stop busting your chops about it. :)
You're lucky you don't have to worry... and No.
We get barked at as if we'd spent a grandeous
20 minutes going up the down escalator...
Apologies if this has been already posted.
ANNOUNCING THE STEEPLECAB SPECIAL to be operated on September 22, 2002.
PLEASE NOTE THE NEW STARTING POINT!
As part of our continuing support of the March of Dimes, Subdivision C of New York City Transit will be sponsoring an extra special excursion train, using the famous BMT Triplex cars of 1927 being pulled by former South Brooklyn Railway steeplecab locomotive 6, on the lines of the BMT.
From 1921 until 1976, locomotive 6 could be found hauling work trains throughout the BMT. Perhaps the most famous duty #6 was assigned to over the years was as a relief locomotive on the SBR, which ran from the docks to Coney Island. While the 1961 conversion of the SBR to full diesel operation ended #6's jaunts through the streets of Brooklyn, it did not end the usefulness of this classic General Electric product. For the next 15 years, #6 could be found prowling throughout the old BMT and IND lines (as well as the odd trip to Corona) on work trains. Finally, in 1976, #6 was retired from active use and placed on exhibit in then newly created New York Transit Museum. Since becoming part of this historical collection, it has never been operated for the public, until now.
Joining locomotive #6 will be the BMT-D types, known as the Triplex cars. Used on the BMT Coney Island lines, they are contemporaries of #6. Indeed, #6 was used to haul the uncompleted sections of the D-types for delivery to then new Coney Island shop for final assembly, as well as for hauling them to be scrapped in the 1960's.
This trip will be covering the Sea Beach, Culver, 4th Avenue, and Jamaica (J) lines, as well as the Coney Island and East New York Yards. As a special treat, locomotive #6 will operate solo on a photo run-by at one point during the trip. Photo stops and run-bys will be made, as well as a lunch stop. Be sure to come with us on this unique, possibly never to be repeated trip.
Join us in supporting the March of Dimes. Fares are $40 for adults, and $20 for children under 13. Day of trip tickets will be $5 extra. THE TRIP LEAVES THE 36 STREET/4 AVENUE STATION OF THE M,N,R,W LINES AT 10:30 AM.
Tickets are available by mail from:
NYCT Subdivision C- M.O.D. Trip
1311 Waters Place, Room 221
Bronx, NY 10461
For any additional information, please call (347) 643-5310. Please make all checks or money orders payable to the March of Dimes.
(Kindly include with your remittance your name, address, phone number, and the amount of adult and child tickets that you wish to purchase. ALSO PLEASE INCLUDE A STAMPED, SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE).
Will this trip be wheelchair compatible? Assuming someone can get to 36th/4th, can they ride? where will the trip terminate and where s the lunch stop? Thanks
Call the phone number listed for the answers to your questions.
According to the original flyer (prior to the change in starting point) the trip is to conclude at Chambers St. on the J line.....Some of us Sub-talkers may commandeer a s/b 6 at Brooklyn Bridge for a trip through the City Hall Loop.
Also according to the flyer, the lunch stop will be at the CI Yard, Ave X gate. You are free to bring a cooler if you'd like.....
Don't know about the handicapped accessiblilty issue. Remember you will be riding in cars manufactured in the 20's and not up to ADA standards. Some seats do face front/back and therefore protrude into the aisles.
Also last year, portable steps were used to get everyone off at SBK. I never been to CI Yards so I don't know how we get off in CI Yards.
Bear in mind that these trips run very long and may not conclude until 6pm.
I wonder if someone has noticed that the announcements is different on the #5 train, it has a similar voice as the #4 train. I wonder if they are going to put the rest of the R-142 # 5 trains like or keep it the way it is. Because this new announments have an authoritive attitude. They should keep it.
Bombardier 'Borg Tech' is the latest innovation for passenger control.
'Stand down your weapons, resistance is futile, you are about to be absorbed by the Borg Collectivce.' Does wonders for door dwell time. CI Peter
I've ridden that train at least 3 times...I know exactly what you are talking about...there's also an R142A on the 6 line doing that...#7651-7660, I was told...There's a chance that the rest of the Lexington Ave lines might get them due to the idea of having uniform automated announcements on each of the lines (i.e., Lexington 4/5/6 and 7th Avenue West Side 1/2/3/9 lines, with the 2/3 getting the new cars).
Cleanairbus
I ve notice this on #6 trains a while back.I was puzzed.It seems the lady has a strict tone of voice
I have no idea what you guys are talking about...
The only time I've ever seen the lady voice on the R142 sound differently than usual is in Brooklyn on the 5 line. She says "This is a manhattan bound 5 train" really fast, almost to the point that you can't make out what she said. {I said almost.}
Click here to see the woman who does the #5 R142 announcements. All automated announcements are recorded by Bloomberg Radio on-air personalities.
BTW, she's kind of a babe.
Last run this Friday evening. 3,000 free parking spaces lost (as well as a low income housing site).
The tornado that took out the Bank One building in downtown Fort Worth in March 2001 was pretty much the death-knell for the subway as well. The area that was hit the hardest by the storm was right near the Tandy Building, and the developers want to create a "unified" downtown development, including the Tandy site. Combine that with the disaster relief funds approved, and that was it.
Will all the tracks be torn up?
Yes, the entire area is being redeveloped.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There has been talk of one of the preservation groups down there saving much of the hardware and some of the cars and transplanting it to a different location in the D/FW area. I don't have any details yet.
There has been talk of a light rail on Lancaster Ave.
Well, even though I don't think I'll be able to pick an actual job, the crew office does allow extra list Train Operators to submit a "wish list" for the new pick. This "wish list" can include the tour you want to work, your RDO's, and the district(Lex vs. 7th Ave) you want to be assigned to.
I live in Queens, so nothing in the A division is convenient for me except the 7 line.
If I ask for the 7th Ave lines, I at least have a chance of working the 7 line, b/c 7 line T/O's are considered be be part of that district. However, by picking the 7th Ave. district, I'll have to work the 2 line and 1 lines most of the time. The 2 is too long, and it's always one or two intervals behind. The 1 is too far from home by car or train. The 3 line would be good to work too.
The Lexington Line is great when you're on the 6 line. It's all downhill after that. The 4 line is hell. WDL terminal is dangerous for parking and eating. And the days on the 4 line are just too long for me. The 5 is fun if you get an R-26 as an operating motor, but there are just too many jobs on the 5 that start in one borough, and finish in another.
So I'm asking my fellow subtalkers to give me some guidance. Lex vs. BWY. What should I ask for?
Go for the convenience. If you live in Queens your best chance of working close to home (the 7) is by picking Broadway XXL.
Very true. Not only will I get to work the 7 line by picking Extra List BWY, but I'll also get some work out of NLTS on the 3 as well. And if they send me to Lenox, that's fine, I don't mind taking the train to the city.
Exactly right. You only have 3 chances to be sent uptown...VC, WP, Lenox (and their yards). There are more chances for you to stay close to home, especially if you don't mind going to Flatbush & New Lots.
If there's one problem with the West Side, it's the management. A few weeks ago, they were gunning trains left and right. There are some very strict TSS's on the 1, 2, and 7 lines who I'd rather get away from. Not that I have a problem with any one TSS in particular, but I keep hearing stories about people being written up on the West Side for such minor infractions.
Lexington is about making trains move fast. You have to read to special "4,5,6 Lexington Ave Line" booklet to truly appreciate their attitude towards speed. I really like management on the Lexington Lines.
My decision as to what district I ask to be placed will be determined by my mood when I wake up to go to my pick location. Two hours ago, I was thinking Broadway. Now, I'm thinking Lexington. Truth is, once everyone is back from vacation, I'll be working the yards and wash so much, it won't matter where I ask to be placed because I'll be on the road so little.
I say lexington, because if management is constantly on your ass you will begin to hate whatever west side line you are on.
LOL. Funny you should say that. Less than two hours ago, I was told by a fellow probationary T/O that a certain TSS gunned him doing 24 going into Utica the other day. Everyone got caught speeding that day.
For those of you who don't know, s/b 1 trains on 1 track are supposed to be doing 20mph when entering Utica.
But it's only 4 MPH.
I know I'm in the minority when I say this but I think it's very difficult to get yourself written up. There is only one way to operate a train, the right way. As far as the petty things I hear people getting written up for, well, come to work in proper uniform, come to work on time, don't dissapear during your WAA time and you shouldn't have a problem. I know some of the TSS's like to believe their stuff doesn't stink and that can be annoying. Yes 'em to death and go about your business. I've been moving trains for 20 years and I'm no big fan of the TSS's. A few of them are worth their weight in gold. Get to know them & stay on their good side. The rest of them I listen to, roll my eyes, and go about my business. I try not to let who the supervisors are determine whether I pick a good job or not. Sorry about the rant. Good luck with the pick.
They may be written up for, as they say minor infractions, but I am sure the employee was verbally warned previously. Obey speed limits. If it says 20 MPH, do 20. I am sure you already know the places where the TSS' like to use the radar gun. I know I certainly did when I worked the E. They liked to stay at the 10 car marker at 23/Ely s/b clocking us around the curve entering the station. They never clocked me going over 21 in a 20 MPH zone.
I've been doing well with my time lately. Probably b/c ridership has been down due to people being on vacation.
In the short time that I've been a T/O, I find that it's hard to make up time by speeding. I find that having a good C/R, and entering stations fast is the way to be on time.
Just the other day, I saw a probationary doing about 20 mph leaving Grand Central on 3 Track. I thought he was nuts.
Honestly, I rarely speed. I used to hate getting bounced around by fast T/O's. I know what it feels like to be in the last car of a n/b 6 leaving GC on 4 tk when the train is doing 20 and is supposed to be doing 10. I treat the passengers the same way I want to be treated as a passenger, while protecting my job at the same time.
I would go East.
I'm leaning toward Lexington.
The pick is actually closed from what I hear. I won't be able to pick a job for another two picks. But I'll ask the crew office to put on the East Side next pick.
Of course, I won't get to work the 7, but that's ok. From what I hear, once summer ends, and everyone is back from vacation, they'll be less road work and more extra yard jobs. Just like it was before summer started.
Pick The Shuttle.
Center to everything.
Wouldn't that get kinda boring, going back and forth all day?
David
Shuttle belongs to the East; unless he is already OPTO-qualified, Luch won't get it, even from the Extra List.
From a service standpoint, I feel the Lex has far better service. Also, if you can get an express, it's great. The downside is that the Lex gets very crowded during rush hour. If I had the choice, I'd pick the Lex. The 7th Avenue line only has 3 number 2 trains running at any given time, so your chance of getting one of those is low. ;) The 6 on the other hand, has 5021 trains an hour, so you could be in luck.
If NYC does become the United States finalist for the olympics, they will have three years to convince the Olympic leaders of the world to host the games in the big apple. Obviously the venues will be a concern, and it makes me wonder if the $1.6 billion non-binding agreement for the new Shea and Yankee stadiums will once again come to light. Bloomberg has already said the city can't afford to finance them this year, but in the future that is a possibility.
I am hoping for a new Shea Stadium, because frankly that place is a dump. I would like a 2nd renovation of Yankee Stadium though, since its in much better shape and has so much history.
Here's a list of possible venues for 2012:
-U.S. Open, Flushing, NY
-New Shea Stadium, Flushing, NY
-Renovated Yankee Stadium, Bronx, NY
-MSG (2nd renovation?), New York, NY
The possibility of using the Meadowlands in NJ is there, and a pool/indoor track will be necessary too..maybe at one of the Universities or something. -Nick
"…If NYC does become the United States finalist for the olympics…"
Don't want to jink it, but would be shocked if NYC didn't get it; no disrespect to San Francisco
http://www.nyc2012.com/venues/venuelaunch.flash.html
For the proposed venues.
Why don't the yankees get a new stadium?
The Yankees got all the money in this world to buy the players and the title. They then can afford to build their own ball park.
Not to mention the fact that they have their own network, YES....
Yeah, Steingrabber go build his own damn stadium. He's got all that money and he'll only get more money from the YES network (greedy egomaniac), so I wouldn't listen to him if he demanded money from the city for a new stadium.
Under the proposed plan, they do get a new stadium. Both the Yankees and the Mets would have to repay the $800 million loan that the city gives them. I just said that I'd rather have a second renovation of Yankee Stadium. As someone who just graduated college, I can only afford upper deck seats, and Yankee stadiums upper deck is fan friendly not being that high up. If they build a new stadium, the deck will be higher because of the luxury boxes. -Nick
We all know what will happen if New York gets the 2012 Olympics. They will hold some beautiful extravigant affair for the opening in Manhatten, maybe central park, and people will exclaim how great NYC is. Then they'll all get on New Jersey subsidised NJT trains, roads or light rail to the Meadowlands, go to the events, and then go get back on the trains to drink, buy T-shirts and so on in NYC. At the end another great ceremony will be held, again in NYC, and again, all the tourist money will be spent in New York. In the end, despite the fact that NJ shouldered all the moving of people, all the building of venues at the Meadowlands, and all the other BS that they will undoudtedly have to put up with from NY, they will see a tiny portion of the revenue. Just like the Giants winning the superbowl, "Yeah we play in NJ, but uhh we don't actually need to aknowledge it, after all, we're the New York Giants." What's funnier, the fact that the Giants lost to the Ravens, or the fact that of the three largest cities in the country, only Chicago is the only one to actually have a football team?
Wow, i need to go to bed, but first, the new state motto:
'Welcome to New Jersey, the ultimate doormat state since 1776.'
>>> Then they'll all get on New Jersey subsidised NJT trains, roads or light rail to the Meadowlands, <<<
Why would they go to the Meadowlands? There are plenty of places in the five boroughs of New York where the Olympic games could be held.
Tom
New Jersey might balk at the cost, but from a national PR standpoint, it would not make the governor (McGrevey of whoever) to try to block the 2012 Olympics from having some events held in that state, in already-existing facilites at the Meadowland and/or in the new arena (wherever Steinbrenner and his Nets/Devils partners finally put it).
The Meadowlands would probably end up as the site for final games of the Olympic soccer touraments for men and women, but track and the opening/closing ceremonies would end up at the new stadium on the west side. Other events (including baseball and softball, unless the IOC drops them) would also be in New York, while the Garden would host either the basketball touraments or the gymnastics, while the other would end up in New Jeresy or at Nassau Coliseum.
Last I heard, Jersey wanted no part of the Olympics. Maybe it's better that way.
Seriously though, if the Jets and Giants are playing their home games in the Meadowlands, in New Jersey, the they should be calling themselves, the NJ Jets and NJ Giants. By that same token, the Washington Redskins play their home games in Landover, Maryland. Shouldn't they be the Maryland Redskins then? Anyway, I don't root for the Jets or the Giants, because a New York team should play in New York. The Meadowlands are not in New York and they never will be. New Jersey is not New York. So what if it's across the Hudson from Manhattan? So what if begins with the same letter as New York? It's not New York. The Jets and Giants want to play in Jersey? Then be a Jersey team. So until either the Jets or the Giants return from across the Hudson, I will be rooting for the New England Patriots.
(In the end, despite the fact that NJ shouldered all the moving of people, all the building of venues at the Meadowlands, and all the other BS that they will undoudtedly have to put up with from NY, they will see a tiny portion of the revenue.)
Sounds like a dream come true. I say let NJ pay for the $1.5 billion Olympic Stadium, rather than NJ. Here's hoping.
No Second Avenue Subway, no Olympics. It's pretty much that simple. The ferries planned are 500 passenger high-speed vessels and that combined with commuter rail can't move everybody. I believe that NYC will win the desgination versus San Francisco, but if we do not get AMTRAK upgrades and a Second Avenue Subway, forget it.
I couldn't have said it better, ar! :-) -Nick
No Second Avenue Subway, no Olympics. It's pretty much that simple. The ferries planned are 500 passenger high-speed vessels and that combined with commuter rail can't move everybody. I believe that NYC will win the designation versus San Francisco, but if we do not get AMTRAK upgrades and a Second Avenue Subway, forget it.
Last I heard, the Astoria Pool was being considered for swimming events. Its huge.
The Olympics is competing with, not increasing support for, new baseball stadiums. NY2012 says it will cover all its $600,000 million in capital costs, but it is assuming that a $1.5 billion Olympic Stadium is already there.
Will the green line elevated tracks still be in existence, or will it be completely torn down and replaced by a subway?
The Big Dig will be moving part of the line underground.
I believe there is a website you can look at. It may be www.bigdig.com or something like that. Feed Big Dig into a search engine. The website has photos, plans and construction updates.
Currently, the Green Line runs elevated from just north of Haymarket to Lechmere (with intermediate stations at North Staton and Science Park). When the new "superstation" is completed, the Green Line will continue in the subway under North Station, and emerge prior to crossing the Charles River. It will then run elevated through Science Park and over the Lechmere viaduct, terminating on the surface at Lechmere.
Here's the official MBTA story on the "superstation."
Is Ted Turner in charge of this?
:)
Mark
I read the article. I've been to Boston numerous times and also stopped numerous times at Sullivan's Tap just under the elevated Green Line to Lechemere. I was unaware that the street below outside the old Boston Garden was in such dire need of improvement.
Todd,
It says that the old elevated green line tracks will be demolished between May and November of 2004, but the new Superstation doesn't open until 2005. Is this when shuttle bus servide will take place, or does the green line have an alternate route of some sort? -Nick
You're right -- that's shuttle time. I don't the Boston riding public understands what's going to happen yet. Bustitution in recent memory has only been done for very brief periods (i.e. weekends on the street portions of the Green Line during maintenance).
My assumption is that the Green Line will terminate at the new North Station "under," though that's not been explicitly stated.
Todd dont forget with Leachmere OOS they need a place to store the Heath St cars which are currently stored there. So my assumption and form what Im gathering Park St for the Heath St and Riverside and Goverment Ctr for everything else. Besidse they dont wnt the buses down Causeway St because of the demolition and the Big Pig ooops DIG Stevie
Heath St cars stored at Lechmere? Please explain...
Do you mean E-line service start from Lechmere, D-line service starts in Riverside, and B and C-line services all start from Government Center? I remember seeing a big yard by Reseveior/Cleveland Circle. Surely there are cars stored there too? Do they send cars in from Riverside and then turn them at Kenmore? What is the operating plan for starting the day?
Funny, I've ridden the Green Line for years, and I haven't thought about that. I know they store all Red Line cars at Alewife, JFK Yard, Ashmont and at Braintree. I also don't understand how they do rush hours because the storage capacity at Alewife is limited and you never see empties move from Alewife to JFK. So presumably at some point they have to send trains that terminate at JFK and go into the yard? How come I never see those trains.
AEM7
Alica,
Yes, Green Line trolleys are stored at Lechmere overnight, so that they can begin their early morning runs from there.
For the exact number of cars stored at each yard on all lines, you can refer to the January edition of "Roll Sign" published by the Boston Street Railway Association (BSRA). [contact me offline and if I still have mine at home I'll bring it into work for you to borrow]
So there is a yard at Lechmere? Where?
Beyond the terminal stub end there is space for a maximum of about 10 trolleys. I'd been there, there were maybe two cars lying over. It's not a big yard. I was surprised they can fit that many trolleys there for the E-line service start-up, which is why I wanted to know the operating plan. I have a feeling that they have to run everything to Park because they simply cannot short turn on the Green Line anywhere between Kenmore and Park.
AEM7
That makes sense.
"I have a feeling that they have to run everything to Park because they simply cannot short turn on the Green Line anywhere between Kenmore and Park."
Why would you want to short turn trolleys between Kenmore and Park?
Whether going inbound or outbound, you'd be dumping a load of passengers onto the trolleys that continue and are already packed to the gills.
Non revenue moves, sending trolley cars from Resevoir Yard to Arborway is best short-turned at Copley.
AEM7
Aha. Thanks.
AEM7 Question where at Copley are you going to turn a car without using hand throw switches nevermind tieing up service to attempt this feat. They end up turning cars at Park St from Boylston . And unless it is a deversion or special circumstances wiill they EVER turn a revnue car at Copley. Stevie
The D service does start from Riverside. You are right about seeing a good size yard at Resevoir/Cleveland Circle, and that is where B and C line trains are stored. The C line makes a right turn past Dunkin' Donuts onto Beacon Street, while the B line trains go up the Hill to Commonwealth Avenue, presumably to start their run Boston College. -Nick
There's no yard beyond Lechmere. You can't park more than a train or two there, if at all.
From what I've read on the MBTA Web site, the bustitution will run from North Station to Lechmere.
Remember that the new "superstation" below North Station will have a mini-yard and switching plant. So at least one service (D or E, maybe even both) should be able to terminate there.
I think that the T will do everything possible to avoid shuttle buses from North Station to Government Center for such a long period of time. Tens of thousands of commuters use that route each rush hour. It would be a trafic nightmare!
It should be interesting to see what happens. Speaking of Gov't Center, isn't there supposed to be a renovation of that station..or are we still talking years down the road for that to begin? -Nick
I was the person who was was involved with the "incident" at Queensboro Plaza upper level this past friday afternoon around 12 30 PM. Question IS IT SUCH A DAMN CRIME TO RECORD A TRAIN FROM A RAILFAN WINDOW THESE DAYS??????? especially since the redbirds are leaving? Please someone tell me where I went wrong so no one else can repeat what happened to me. I was with a friend of mine riding the 7 line we went from Main Street to Times Square no problem then we went from Times Square to as far as QBP we were supposed to go back to Main Street but that never happened and Im still VERY ANNOYED at this whole situation. I ONLY WANTED SOME FOOTAGE OF THE REDBIRDS WHILE THEY WERE STILL 10 CARS There adding back this friday night so word of advice is GET YOUR 10 CAR 7 Pictures now while you can once they add back thats it. As more R 62As will be coming over. PS this had NOTHING to do with the Tennis Open.
I'm sorry to hear about it. I think there's a heightened sense of security from 9/11, where you become subject to everyone's scrutiny. Your best bet might be to avoid taking pictures at certain key points in the system, where you'll attract a lot of attention. Stay out of terminals, and places like that.
-Stef
you should be able 2 go anywhere U want !!!
whew !!
Quite true, but severe scrutiny for security is something you don't mess up with.
And this whole issue was discussed in detail SO many times in the past year. I avoid most threads and seem to remember several warnings
>>> I was the person who was was involved with the "incident" at Queensboro Plaza upper level this past Friday afternoon around 12 30 PM. <<<
You might let those of us who are not clairvoyant in on what the incident was. Were you weenie wagging in front of kids? If you don't tell us our imaginations run wild.
Tom
LOL tom
Weenie wagging! LoL
Thank you for making me laugh so hard at work.
I needed that.
Hmm, apparently you didn't read his whole post!!! Before making some vagrant humor, try reading the entire thing, he explains it, ya know!! 8-)
"Hmm, apparently you didn't read his whole post!!! Before making some vagrant humor, try reading the entire thing, he explains it, ya know!! 8-)"
I too am curious what happened. Post 377050 does not explain except to say that somehow he ended up not getting to Main Street. Was he arrested? Was he politely asked a question or two and then he gave up because he missed his opportunity?
If it's not in post 377050, is it in some other thread?
Incident seems a bit of an overblown discription. Buff in a Huff seems more appropriate.
I believe post #376511 and the replies to it detail what's been going on.
I meant what he was doing that caused him to be in trouble, namely the recording.
It seems that Tom was harassed for no reason at all on the #7 line the other day. From the MTA Rules of conduct, Conduct and safety of the public, Part 1050:
Section 1050.9
Restricted areas and activities.
(c) Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the NYPD are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provision of these rules.
.........Why did they ""bumb rush""....him ??
>>Why did they ""bumb rush""....him ?<<
Don't know, perhaps he may appeared to act suspiciously ?
I never had any trouble, even post 9/11 and carry a camera bag too. I usually get my shot and leave and not hang aroung.
Bill "Newkirk"
Photographers are easy prey as they stand still, while kids with markers hit and run.
7 Line = US Open??
Maybe the extra secrutiy of the Open played a part??
I was taking photos of Corona yard and the temporary fare control array at Willets Point Blvd yesterday afternoon, police all around, with no problems. Fifteen minutes later, simply walking through the park with a briefcase, I was eyed suspiciously. The police are human beings; some of them take things too seriously.
In which case, he can take down the officer's (or MTA employee's) name and badge number, and file a complaint with MTA. In addition, if he feels so inclined, he can pay for an hour of an attorney's time to write MTA a letter as well. Other options include having a copy of this letter sent to a newspaper of his choice.
It's unfortunate that this happened, but with thousands of employees it's certainly possible one of them is misinformed a to policy, or having a bad day, or is a jerk.
Come back and film again another day.
If the incident in the subway involves a Police Officer, the letter should be directed to the New York Police Department. Neither the MTA nor any of its constituent agencies (NYCT, etc.) provide policing services in the subway.
David
Good point. However, a copy of the letter should be sent to MTA, because the police are instructed to enforce MTA's rules, in addition to city and state laws. If the officer in question is doing that incorrectly, MTA needs to know about it.
Since the merger of the 2 departments, I have a feeling that NYPD people do not know the rules of the MTA, but they should. A t/o is blows long-short-long-short on the horn to call a cop, but these cops don't know the signal!
This is what is available at the Straphanges site:
(Include badge number of the Officer if possible)
Raymond J. Kelly
Commisioner, New York City Police
Headquarters, One Police Plaza
New York, NY 10038
and
Michael A. Ansbro
NYPD Transit Bureau Chief
370 Jay Street, 2nd fl.
Brooklyn, NY 11201
phone (718) 243-3441 fax (718) 243-8909
It would not hurt if you send a copy to:
Lawrence G. Reuter, President
MTA New York City Transit
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, New York 11201
phone: (718) 330-4321 fax: (718) 596-2146
If memory serves, Chief Ansbro retired recently. Try Chief Michael Scagnelli at the same address listed for Chief Ansbro.
David
Thanks for the info. The next time I'm up in NY, probably sometime this fall, I will be taking lots of subway pictures. I'm going to bring a printout of those addresses and the photography faq page from this site, and if any cop tries to make me stop I will inform him that I will report him/her because it is ok to take pictures in the subway.
Be polite about it.
....So I thought.
Thanks Mark for the quote.. It's one I've read
repeatedly and know well enough to tell others
sans citation..
I take cover in a MTA Video/Photo Permit.
Even if it's a small dingy 3x5 card, it basically
states you are ALLOWED and AUTHORIZED to take photo
or video on the property... with an MTA signature!!
I take cover in a MTA Video/Photo Permit.
Even if it's a small dingy 3x5 card, it basically
states you are ALLOWED and AUTHORIZED to take photo
or video on the property... with an MTA signature!!
How do I obtain one of these cards?
David
One can contact NYCT Government Relations. HOWEVER, civilians taking pictures for their own personal use don't need a permit anymore and won't be issued one.
David
One can contact NYCT Government Relations. HOWEVER, civilians taking pictures for their own personal use don't need a permit anymore and won't be issued one.
Except no one told the NYCT that the police are harrassing amateur photographers. If people could get photo permits, they might not have to fear the police so much.
Why tell NYCT that? They're not NYCT's police. Tell the Police Commissioner, if people are in fact being harrassed by his officers!
David
Hmmmmm....
And I wonder why the motorman on the #1 at 242nd St. was cranky when I wanted a picture of the railfan window view when standing at the station. I was using a plain, focus-free camera. Looks like the motorman didn't even look at our camera and just said
"Nope"
and closed his door with his big bag covering the railfan window.
What a beast! I was expecting better workers.
Get out and fall back an interval.
Elias
Pally Pete,
If the train was standing at the station..
Who said you HAD TO wait for the T/O to
show up before choosing to take a pikter..
The T/O could have been a few minutes past
his leaving time, thus he rushes you, but
having been at 242nd long enough, I'm darn
certain that train musta been parked a good
4 to 6 minutes before T/O took charge..
And if there was a door closure involved,
sounds like a transverse cab... why bother
when there are cab-less units currently
roaming the 1 line...
Wait for 1 sans cab and there's no door to shut.
i was reading the #5 train manual on PDF etc....
( this is on the official nyc transit page U know )
There is a ""shuttle service"" ....section
What is this?? it is highlighted i guess this is an express bypass
or something like that ?? i would appreciate any info onj dat'..!
it also seems that only late nights the #5 does express elevated
runs from 149th -2- 180th ( maybe i got that right ) ..????
i was reading the #5 train manual on PDF etc....
( this is on the official nyc transit page U know )
There is a ""shuttle service"" ....section
What is this?? it is highlighted i guess this is an express bypass
or something like that ?? i would appreciate any info on dat'..!
it also seems that only late nights the #5 does express elevated
runs from 149th -2- 180th ( maybe i got that right ) ..????
The 5 line operates express from E 180 to 149th rush hours toward Manhattan in the AM and away from Manhattan in the PM. At night, it doesn't run at all except as a shuttle from E 180 to Dyre which would have no service if it didn't run. It is not necessary to run south of E 180 at night b/c every station it stops at is covered by another line.
A follow up question if i might ask here please .......
-It is not necessary to run south of E 180 at night b/c every station it stops at is covered by another line.-
which line runs south of 180 at night? (covered by another line)?
would that be the #2 or #4 or #6 ??
at 149 the 2 & 5 split off in 2 directions , hmmmm???
thankz again
the 2 covers 180th-149th during the night and yes the 2 and 5 split off at 149 and 180th,2 to 7th ave at 149,to 241st at 180.the 5 to lexington at 149,to dyre ave. at 180th.
Also during rush hours (and one Bronx midday train) the 5 also goes from 180 to 238-Nereid.
Does anyone know what happened? I was in the last car of an F train that went BIE between 21st/Queensbridge and 36th St., heading toward 179th. I'd say it happened just before the merge onto the express track from Queens Plaza. We were there for nearly half an hour.
Yesterday really wasn't my day - before getting on that F, I was on a PATH train that also went BIE between Grove and Pavonia, due to an "oops" by some signal maintainers. Of course, being that this was PATH, we were on our way inside of 5 minutes, instead of the usual "run around and shout" and a couple levels of supervision getting involved, as happen at the TA.
Any thoughts if the courts are willing to go in a new direction on Transportation Union Vs. LIRR(82)?
Either in terms of essential service or preexisting right to strike.
(Any thoughts if the courts are willing to go in a new direction on Transportation Union Vs. LIRR(82)? Either in terms of essential service or preexisting right to strike.)
I think the courts showed in 2000 that they will not tolerate a transit strike. As for essential services, the only reason Bell Atlantic and Con Ed can get away with strikes is because they can operate their systems for a while without most of their employees. (Maybe my proposed partial network operated by supervisors would thus make a strike MORE likely).
>>I think the courts showed in 2000 that they will not tolerate a transit strike.
That one only worked once (to get people scared, then pissed off), it did not hold up but it did break the spirit of a potential strike.
>> (Maybe my proposed partial network operated by supervisors would thus make a strike MORE likely).
Actually in CA there were strikes that the courts supported because there was still some sort of service going on.
Courts in other states, even in the South are moving toward letting non police and fire employees strike.
Today we save a little gas.
The rail industry consumes thousands of barrels of fuel on a daily basis. Diesel-Electric locomotives feed upon an exclusive diet of #2 diesel fuel. Over the years there have been trials of alternative fuels with limited to moderate success. Several railroads, including
Burlington Northern, have tested locomotives equipped to burn liquefied natural gas. Both Union Pacific and the Santa Fe operated natural gas powered switch engines built by Morrison-Knudsen in the Los Angeles area. BN equipped a group of SD40-2 locomotives for service in through freight service during the 80’s. Prior to that, the tried the fuel on a couple of GP9’s used in local and industry service in Minnesota. Eventually BN gave up on the idea of gas powered engines and both the Geeps and Special Duty units were converted back to diesel fuel.
Union Pacific converted a fleet of units to burn Bunker C oil, a heavy, thick fuel during the 1960’s. Bunker C was dirt cheap in those days, cheaper than diesel. This was the primary reason for the conversion. The units involved in the conversion underwent numerous modifications to allow them to burn what essentially was petroleum sludge. As the price of Bunker C began to escalate, UP gave up on the idea and converted this fleet back to diesel fuel.
Diesel fuel has consistently been the tried and true method of powering locomotive prime movers. And just like the average consumer driving their automobiles, the railroads have been subject to the ebbs and flows of fuel prices. And just like the motoring public and car builders, the industry and locomotive manufacturers have risen to the challenge of fuel conservation.
The fuel conservation aspect has been a greater challenge for locomotive builders than for the car builders. Unlike your automobile, lighter weight materials such as plastics and aluminum cannot be used to lighten up the locomotives for better fuel economy. When it comes to weight, locomotives have to maintain their heavier weights for adhesion to the rail.
One of the first offerings was low idle. This was a relatively simple idea. Whenever the reverser on the controlling locomotive is centered (placed in the center position between forward and reverse), the locomotive’s prime mover reduces from its regular idle Rpm’s to a lower Rpm setting. This can be a reduction of 50 to 75 revolutions per minute. While it does not sound like much, it is. As the Rpm’s are reduced, the amount of fuel required to keep the prime mover running is also reduced. Any and all units in the locomotive consist equipped with the low idle feature will also drop to low idle when the reverser is centered on the controlling locomotive. ElectroMotive Division of GM first introduced this product in the mid 70’s. GE didn’t follow suit until the very early 80’s. Kits have been offered to apply this feature to older locomotives. Numerous locomotives equipped with low idle have a badge or decal on the control stand reminding the Engineer to center the reverser when not moving.
MoPac had the feature applied to all their EMD products built after 1976. They added it to units not previously equipped as well. There was a draw back to the product on some units though. MP15DC units built in the early 80’s came standard with the product. However, in wintertime Electricians would have to jump the feature out. In the colder months, with the heaters operating and the unit in low idle, the 74 volt electrical system that supplied power to cab utilities like the refrigerator could not sustain enough energy to keep everything properly. To remedy this problem, jumping out the low idle kept everything working.
General Electric units equipped with the low idle had a problem year round with keeping the refrigerators operating normally. The refrigerators would cycle constantly and not maintain adequately cold temperatures. A modification to the locomotive electrical systems was made to alleviate this problem.
The low idle feature was taken a step further in 1980 by EMD. Units would idle at the lower Rpm’s whenever the throttle was in the idle position regardless of what position the reverser was in. The Rpm’s would increase whenever the throttle was advanced out of idle to run 1 or above. Today, virtually all new locomotives have this feature.
Locomotive component producers developed after market products that promote fuel conservation. Harmon and Servo were two companies that manufactured products that allowed for a simple approach to fuel conservation. Harmon developed "Select-A-Power." Conrail was probably the biggest user of Harmon’s product. All of their medium and high horsepower units were equipped with it. MoPac obtained several of these units as well.
Select-A-Power worked relatively easy. Each equipped locomotive had a box mounted above the air brake rack and radio. Indicator lights on the control panel showed you how many working units in the locomotive consist were active and equipped with the feature. When you reached a situation in which you didn’t require all the horsepower from the trailing units in the locomotive consist, you pushed a button on the Select-A-Power control panel to reduce working units in the consist. A light would illuminate for a moment telling you the unit was actively engaged in making the change. The rear most trailing unit would then drop back to idle and the light representing that unit would extinguish on the control panel. If you wanted to reduce more power, depressing the button again would drop the next trailing unit to idle. As you needed to add power for grades and maintaining track speed, you depressed the button on the control panel to add a unit or units to power. You could add and subtract units literally at the push of a button. Conrail was very satisfied with Select-A-Power as most of their power was equipped. Only smaller units like older Geeps used primarily in yard service and Switchers were not equipped.
MoPac tried Select-A-Power and Servo’s product on a select few units, all GP50’s. I cannot recall the marketing name of the Servo product or exactly how it was set up as they only had three units equipped with it. I do recall it had a speedometer built into the display though. A drawback to both of these products was the fact they were not compatible. In fact, a locomotive with a Harmon unit could not be MU’d with locomotive equipped with a Servo unit.
There was another product that allowed for deleting trailing units from responding to the throttle. I have seen them but do not recall the brand name. These units used a selector switch that resembled the headlight control switch. Again, only units equipped with this product would work with it. You simply turned the selector lever to the unit you wished to place into the fuel saver mode and that trailing unit would respond accordingly. I recall seeing this feature on some Grand Trunk Western units.
MoPac also applied a fuel saver switch to all their medium and high horsepower units. This unit was equipped with a toggle switch, placed inside the breaker box in the high voltage cabinet on EMD units and on the wall next to the circuit breaker panel on General Electric units. When switched into the on position, that unit would only respond to throttle positions 1 and 2. The only drawback to this was that if you wanted to set up the feature on trailing units, you would have to journey back to them to either activate or disengage the feature. Normally though, you only used this feature on the lead unit of the locomotive consist.
Most locomotives are set up to provide main reservoir air pressure between 130 and 140 psi. MoPac research demonstrated they could maintain an adequate supply of air pressure for all required systems using a setting of 120 to 130 psi. All the governors on the air compressors were reset to this range. This meant the air compressors did not have to cycle quite as often. The air compressors are powered from the prime mover through a shaft. While the compressor shaft is rotating at all times, the compressor only cycles when there is a demand for air. Whenever the compressor cycles, it draws more power from the prime mover to drive the system. This requires the prime mover to work harder. The less often the compressor has to cycle, the less the prime mover has to work. This resulted in fuel savings.
For years the rail industry allowed for locomotives not ready for service that is, lying over between runs, to sit and idle for hours, sometimes even days. When fuel was cheap, this was no big deal. As fuel prices began to escalate in the 70’s, this attitude began to change. Most railroads began to issue instructions requiring power to be shut down when not being used for extended periods of time when ambient temperatures were 45° or above. Chessie System took this a step further. They required units to be shut down whenever the job went to dinner and even coffee. Seaboard System tried the idea of requiring the Engineer to go back and shut down all trailing units in the locomotive consist whenever the train was going to be stopped for any extended period of time, such as while waiting in a siding for meets with several trains. Today, CNIC is talking about using this method.
A product called the Kim Hot Start system was developed. This system allows a locomotive not used for more than ten minutes to automatically shut down. Whenever the unit would be needed, moving the reverser handle would automatically engage the system and restart the locomotive. Several major railroads have obtained this product including Canadian National. Numerous short lines have also obtained this product. This system includes components that measure oil and cooling water temperature. If the temperature gets below a certain point, the unit will automatically start itself to bring the cooling water temperature up to a safe point to prevent the unit from freezing during cold weather.
Several railroads use a system that heats the lube oil and cooling water while the locomotive is shut down. The Elgin, Joliet & Eastern is one road that comes to mind that uses such a product. Locomotives assigned to their Whiting, IN yard are equipped with this feature. When the locomotive is tied up and shut down, a cable is plugged into a receptacle on the locomotive and the power to it energized. This energy is used to power a system that will circulate and heat the cooling water and lube oil. Even in the most bitter cold weather, the lube oil and cooling water are kept at temperature sufficient to keep the prime mover of the locomotive from freezing up.
Metra also uses this product on their passenger locomotives. The cable that is plugged into the train when it is stored overnight and on weekends provides power for heating, cooling and lighting to the entire train as well as to the locomotive. With this system, Metra does not have to use the locomotives at outlying points to provide the power while the equipment is lying over. While they can set the locomotives for "stand by" for the head end power (HEP), this still burns fuel. In stand by, the locomotive revs constantly as if the throttle was set in run 6 to run a generator that creates electricity to power the coaches. Normally when in service on a train, when the HEP is set in the normal mode, the locomotive revs constantly in Run 8. This allows for the locomotive to create electrical energy for traction.
The rail industry developed programs to promote fuel conservation. Some railroads began to offer training for Locomotive Engineers teaching fuel conservation operating procedures. They produced booklets with fuel conservation tips and charts that demonstrate how much fuel per hour a locomotive burns at certain throttle settings. They sent Engineers for training classes. Had I not been furloughed from the MoPac in 1985, I would have attended a week of fuel conservation training at Union Pacific’s training center in Salt Lake City. Several Engineers I worked with had already been through the class telling me they gained a great deal of knowledge from it. They also explained some of these procedures to me and I have practiced many of them over the years. Instead, they would not let me attend my scheduled week as I was cut off and not working.
In my career, I have watched many videos that explain fuel conservation techniques. I have talked to many Locomotive Engineers from numerous railroads over the years and exchanged and shared fuel conservation ideas with them. Again, I have practiced many of these techniques throughout my career.
There are many ways for Engineers to promote fuel conservation. In the case of having redundant horsepower in your locomotive consist (extra, not required locomotives), the excess power can be isolated or in warmer weather, shut down. Being that we rarely enjoy this luxury on the CNIC, that doesn’t happen too often here. But on the rare occasion it does and when I can, I do comply.
There are numerous ways we have been taught to save fuel in train operations. I will explain several of them to you now.
Throttle Modulation
This is a method of using the throttle, terrain, grades and curvature for optimum fuel conservation. Reducing the throttle at strategic locations and using uphill grades and curves can greatly assist in reducing speed where it may be required. If I have a block signal indicating that I must reduce my speed to enter a siding, I have several options to reduce my speed. I can drive right up to the signal and power brake by taking reductions in brake pipe pressure to set the train brakes while working the throttle hard and slowing down at the last moment. I might use reduced throttle braking which uses air brakes against the throttle, but at a lower throttle setting. I can use throttle modulation if the conditions allow. Dropping the throttle and using any bit of grade can reduce my speed. It may take a little longer, but this is what the industry desires. If there is a bit of curve, this will also help reduce speed. The bind of the curve provides for rolling resistance. My other choice is to use dynamic braking to reduce my speed.
Throttle modulation can also be used to maintain speed over undulating terrain. This would be areas of short and numerous grades often referred to as hog backs or camel backs. Instead of using air brakes for assistance, the throttle and the lay of the land are used.
Dynamic Brakes.
Most railroads require dynamic braking as the preferred choice for reducing speed and stopping trains. Dynamic Braking is basically the reversing of polarity between the traction motors and main generator. Under throttle or motoring, the main generator converts mechanical force of the prime mover (diesel engine) into electrical energy. This electrical energy is what powers the traction motors connected to each axle on the locomotive. With dynamic braking, this polarity is reversed and the traction motors are turned into generators. This retards their rotation causing a braking effect that is measured in amperage. The retarded wheel rotation begins to slow the train. Very little fuel is required to operate the dynamic brakes. Most of the power used is to support ancillary functions such as the fans used for cooling the resister grids. The energy created by dynamic braking is sent to a resister grid. This grid is akin to the grids inside of a toaster, although there are more coils spaced much closer together. The cooling fans draw outside air in through the grid to cool them off and dissipate the heat created in the dynamic braking mode.
On certain electric locomotives and rapid transit cars, the dynamic brake is actually a regenerative braking system. The energy created by the dynamic braking is returned to the electrical transmission system, be it overhead wire or third rail. This offers a financial saving to these operations as they get that electricity back making that much less they have to purchase from local utilities.
EMD locomotives built prior to 1985 have a bulge in the top center of the car body. Inside this bulge is the resister grid. Above the bulge, one or two fans are mounted to draw the air in through the louvers on the side of the bulge. All units built in 1985 and since have the dynamic brake grid placed right behind the high voltage cabinet which is right behind the cab. Moving the grid to this location offers cleaner and cooler air to be drawn into the grid for the cooling process resulting in fewer failures with the system.
Dynamic braking requires more distance and patience though. When making the transition from motoring to dynamic, you must first wait ten seconds to assure that all amperage to the traction motors has decayed. After the wait is finished, you move the dynamic controller into the "Set Up" position. You must then begin take up the slack in the train using lower settings on the dynamic controller. You are bunching up the train. This requires a gentle touch as too much buff action when taking up the slack can cause a car to derail. Once the slack is taken up, you can safely begin to increase the effort of dynamic braking. Dynamic is most efficient at speeds below 40 mph. At 28 mph is when dynamic braking effort is at its greatest. More distance may be required for using dynamics for slowing and stopping.
Unfortunately on many occasions, there is only dynamic brakes on the lead unit in the locomotive consist. When pulling a 12 or 14,000 ton train, the single unit with dynamic brakes will not sufficiently slow and stop the train under most situations. This makes the dynamic almost useless in many situations, or if used, it must be used with the air brakes.
Reduced throttle braking.
In the past, we have used stretch power braking (also referred to as stretch braking or just power braking) to slow and stop trains. In the days of cabooses, this method was almost required. You were trying to keep the slack stretched as much as possible to avoid banging the boys in the back all over the place and causing a possible injury.
Stretch or power braking, meant you would keep the throttle in a higher throttle setting like run 7 or 8. You apply the air brakes to the train and continue to work the power hard against the brake applications. The train is slowing, but you are keeping the slack stretched tight. I learned this method when I first began to learn to run trains. The industry does not want us to perform stretch braking as it burns more fuel.
However, there are some cases when, contrary to what they tell us, it is almost necessary for good train handling.
Reduced throttle braking has you still working power against the brake applications, but instead of higher throttle settings, you use a throttle position of no higher than run 4. You are keeping the slack stretched somewhat in this method. Now that there are no longer cabooses to contend with, a little bit of slack action in the back is no longer a major issue. FRED does not complain about a bump or two here or there.
CNIC does not practice any method of train make up. This would be the placement of loads and empties through out the train. In many cases, we have a bunch of heavy loads at, or very close to, the tail end of the train. And in many of these cases, there is often a block of empty cars right ahead of these loads. Using the company desired method of reduced throttle braking can lead to excessive run in of the slack creating severe in-train forces which might cause a derailment.
On some occasions, we will get a large block of empty stone hoppers on the head end of the train. Behind them will be a bunch of loads scattered throughout the train. In this situation, reduced throttle braking can lead to problems. Even though these problems don’t seem to happen in the simulators, they do happen in the real world. In this case, good judgment sometimes overrules company demands.
Zero Throttle Braking
This is a very different method that can only be used under certain conditions. In my experiences with using it, this method has worked very well. The only place I have found I could use it is on long, descending grades. I used to use this method when bringing trains down Byron Hill in Wisconsin. As I started the descent, I would reduce the throttle to run 4, then make a minimum reduction (5 to 7 psi) of the automatic brake valve, which applies the train brakes. Once the slack was adjusted in the train, I would reduce the throttle to idle, center the reverser handle and let the train roll down the five a half miles of grade. The speed would normally hold at the maximum 40 MPH as the train brakes and the bind of the numerous curves were working for me.
Upon reaching the bottom of the hill, there was a long curve up to the east end of Valley Siding and a bit of an ascending grade. I could now begin to open the throttle and advance it as needed to begin to start pulling the train again. The brakes were still applied and if I had to stop at the west end of Valley, I could do so easily with throttle modulation and, if necessary, an additional application of the train brakes.
The locomotive builders have made significant progress in fuel conservation through the use of microprocessors. All high horsepower locomotives built since the mid 80’s are equipped with computers. Some railroads and also several contract locomotive shops have added microprocessors to some of older high horsepower locomotives as well. Savings have been realized in fuel costs with this addition. The microprocessor-equipped locomotives have contributed greatly to economical operations returning on the investment in them.
Another item the locomotive builders have begun using are electric air compressors. Instead of being connected directly to the prime mover through a drive shaft, the compressor is powered by an electric motor. The motor is far more energy efficient requiring less energy to operate resulting in more fuel economy.
Recently, CNIC issued a notice stating the while tonnage has not increased, fuel consumption has. Of course, they have placed the onus on us, the Locomotive Engineers to save fuel. However, there are many instances where as Locomotive Engineers, we are totally powerless to do anything more than we already do in practicing fuel conservation.
Aside from the overweight and under powered trains, we have numerous situations in which to deal with. First off, we’ll start with smoking locomotives. When a locomotive is smoking excessively, more often than not, this is from incomplete combustion. The incomplete combustion is often the result of a mechanical problem such as a bad injector or power assembly. What this all means is the locomotive is not completely burning all the fuel it is using. That means more fuel consumed to do the same amount of work. This would be akin to driving your car while towing a boat and trailer when the car needs a tune up. You can pull that boat, you are just using far more fuel than necessary.
Locomotives that are not loading the full amount of amperage under specific circumstances also waste fuel. A 3000 horsepower unit that is only producing 2600 or 2700 horsepower as a result of the loading problem is also wasting fuel. You are burning up just as much fuel to get less output.
Then there are operating exigencies. Whenever the Dispatcher does not line a route for my train in a timely fashion, I have to begin to slow the train. Whenever I encounter an approach (yellow) signal indicating I may proceed, prepared to stop before passing the next signal, I attempt to contact the Dispatcher first. If this fails, I must begin to reduce my speed and prepare to stop at the next signal. I can never assume the Dispatcher will line me up in time. If they don’t and I am not prepared to stop, there is an excellent chance I could get by the stop signal and then get into really serious trouble.
So now I am slowing down my train. As I get close to that next signal, it changes to a more favorable signal and I can proceed. But I have already reduced my speed. I have taken momentum and energy out of my train. Now, I have to begin to accelerate again. The momentum and energy must be put back into the train. This is a big waste of fuel. In some cases, we don’t get the signal and have to stop. Now we are sitting and waiting for no reason other than not being lined up in a timely manner. At some point, we will either get the signal or a call wanting to know why we are not moving. Now, we get to restart the train from a stop. All of the energy and momentum have been removed from the train and we must basically start from scratch. Even more fuel is wasted. I have sat at stop signals for ten to fifteen minutes (and longer) for no reason other than not being lined up. This is a total waste. And it happens far more often than many people are willing to admit.
Speed restrictions owing to track conditions are also a factor. This would be similar to stop and go driving your car. Slowing down for a speed restriction and then resuming normal speed once you are clear has the same effect I describe in the above paragraph.
A common occurrence in my days at the Wisconsin Central was trains too big for the railroad over which we operated. We only had three long sidings on the route between Fond du Lac and Schiller Park, and another two that allowed us to "double in." This meant cutting the train and doubling the excess into a track auxiliary to the siding or main track so as to be able to clear up for an opposing train. If we had to double in, the opposing train we were meeting would have to stop back a ways and wait for us to make this move. Then he would start his train again and pass us. After he was clear and we received the signal, we would have to put our train back together again, pump up the air from zero (cycling those air compressors) and wait while the Conductor walks up back up to the engines.
In many cases, we would be told of having to meet another land barge type train. We would be held at one of the few long sidings and then sit and wait for an hour or more for one train. This has also happened at CNIC. There have been cases where our train has been too long to fit into many of the sidings. As a result, somebody has to sit and wait. Fuel is being burned to sit and wait for extended periods of time. We are not alone here either as I hear from friends at other railroads telling similar stories.
And of course, there is that single track thing that I have discussed many times in the past. Stopping, sitting and starting numerous times also plays an important role in fuel consumption.
In the meantime though, I continue make a diligent effort to try to save some fuel under the circumstances in which I am required to work. The bulletin issued stated the Supervisors of Locomotive Engineers are to periodically pull the event recorder tapes and observe them to monitor our compliance. If they want compliance, then I am gong to give them 100% whenever possible. Of course this may increase my running times but, I guess that is just part of that big picture.
But I guess when the Trainmasters leave the motors (and air conditioners) running on the company trucks and cars most all of the time even when they are not in them, that does not count. Gasoline, also consumed a fair quantities by the industry must not count in the conservation equation.
And so it goes.
Tuch
Hot Times on the High Iron, ©2002 by JD Santucci
Well, folks, off I go tomorrow to our neighbor-to-the-north for a PCC charter. I hope to have some good photos to post when I return.
I know of at least one other contributor to nycsubway.org who will be there, who I'm looking forward to meeting. If anyone else is going, see you there!
Of course, I'll check out the subway, and I'll be all over the streetcar system all day Sunday, but is there anything I should be sure to see while I'm there, especially transit-wise?
Check out the Western Lake Shore GO line. Highlights: Special station at the EX (which is currently on); shared trackage with VIA, CN and Amtrak; cool junctions and scenery between Aldershot and Hamilton. And GO cars are bi-level.
Rush hour at Union Station is pretty cool....a scaled down version of Penn.
The best PCC ride is supposed to be from Union Station, underground, then emerging on Queens Quay (street parallel to waterfront).
Have fun in T.O.
The best PCC ride is supposed to be from Union Station, underground, then emerging on Queens Quay (street parallel to waterfront).
Sorry, no more PCC's in regular service in Toronto, only CLRV's/ALRV's.
But don't despair. The CLRVs and ALRVs are really cool, and Toronto is the only place I know where you can ride them, so don't miss out.
Mark
You can get ALRVs in Vancouver, too. The Millennium Line trains are said to be tres posh, compared to the plebian SD-160s we've got here in Calgary.
ALRV's in Vancouver? Where? Vancouver has no streetcar lines.
AFAIK, they are strickly Toronto.
There are cars which are derivitives of the ALRVs running somewhere in California, but that's it. Some of the SIG CLRVs ran around on standard guage trucks in Switzerland for testing back when they were new and three spent some time on the green line in Boston. That's it for CLRVs and ALRVs outside of Toronto.
-Robert King
Unfortunately this is a true fact and has been so since the evening of Friday, December 8, 1995.
This is why most PCC charters do the trip to and from Union Station, because it is one of the best PCC rides. So, he'll probably get to ride it irrespective of whichever PCC fan trip he goes on.
Speaking of fan trips and PCC retirement, back in 2000, I notied that the five year anniversary of the PCC retirment was going to line up exactly with the retirment itself: December 8 was going to be a Friday again. I mentioned this to a friend of mine and pointed out that it would be perfect for the Toronto Transportation Society to mark the fifth anniversary of the retirement by doing a short PCC fan trip on the evening of December 8 and recreate the last run. I brought the idea to the vice president of the TTS and can you guess what happened?
-Robert King
I know of several people here who are going. Right now, ALRVs are providing base service on King until September 1. If you arrive tomorrow, spend Friday and Saturday photographing that because it probably won't happen again for a very long time now that most of Queen's been rebuilt and the cars won't be sent to other lines.
-Robert King
Don't forget to get some photos of Sheppard station under construction. I heard the Shep subway is pretty sweet.
You can't see anything. Temporary drywall faces block all the views and access. The Sheppard subway was supposed to open this weekend on September 1, but that got pushed back to November 24 which eliminated some tough decision making or planning around both a PCC fan trip and a subway opening.
-Robert King
What charter are you riding, the TTS for 1/2 day, or the private charter which operates for 7 hours?
I'm attending the private charter. It is the fourth charter this group has arranged. The routing is great, and I'm hoping that the weather holds out.
As for things to do in Toronto - do you like subways? Toronto has one of the best! It may be simple, downright plain, but boy does it do a great job of transporting people around. Where else in North American do two lines operate with a MAXIMUM interval of 5 minutes?
Jim K.
Chicago
This time I'm bringing a route name sign so that no matter which PCC we end up with, it shouldn't be a repeat of the 501/501/501 number sign arrangement on 4500 of last year.
-Robert King
This time I'm bringing a route name sign so that no matter which PCC we end up with, it shouldn't be a repeat of the 501/501/501 number sign arrangement on 4500 of last year. Hopefully we don't have a repeat of last year's weather, too. So far, Sunday's looking 'mainly sunny', according to CBC, with the high temperature of about 27.
-Robert King
HEY! You're gonna scare the fook out of your guests from down under with that number. Gotta remind 'em that it's CELSIUS, eh. :)
It ain't the Great White North just yet.
Ok, ok, ok. According to Hewlett Packard, 27 C works out to 80.6 F. 27 F seems to be about the ideal temperature for making snow, couple of degrees below zero.
-Robert King
No no, it's a couple degrees below water's freeze point, 273, zero is zero, all motion stops. Right now in philly its a 290.
Isn't everything more fun with kelvin?
Rankine actually ... the temperature where water freezes is 492. Boils at 572. And absolute zero is still zero.
Whoops. Conversion error ... make that 672for b'ilin' water ...
Ayup ... and when we're both at -40, we're even. We do that every couple of years here as well. But we wouldn't want folks sneaking firewood onto the PCC. :)
How about a temporary aerial guideway for the Second Avenue Subway until the subway gets built? Then, once the full subway is operational (i.e.-trains running the full length in passenger service), the neighborhoods can vote to have the elevated track removed. This line could use the same technology as AirTrain or use conventional technology, depending on who builds it and what the service plan would be.
Just a thought.
Do you have in mind that people would get use to the aerial, so no subway ever need get built?
Otherwise you're spending extra money.
Best of both worlds.
The service would be there and if they don't build the subway, there would be SOME relief.
The folks who detest aerial guideways would shake down the money for the subway and get it built, just to tear down the aerial. By the way, $1 billion is earmarked so far. That can build a 10 mile elevated line right now.
Dont know how times Ive said how much a monorail down 2nd Avenue would help the current situation, whether permanent oe temporary.
"Dont know how times Ive said how much a monorail down 2nd Avenue would help the current situation, whether permanent oe temporary."
Only 4 minor problems:
- NIMBYs would delay it into the year 2100. No new Els are going to be built. It's one thing to move to a neighborhood with an El, but no one who lives in the neighborhood will stand for a new one.
- NYC isn't rich enough to be able to afford $1 billion temporary infrastructure expenses.
- The Lex is not going to be severely stressed by the Olympics. Therefore the SAS is not going to provide any real relief.
- The subways can handle the Olympics crowds better than they can handle rush hour crowds, because Olymics crowds will be more dispersed. The only thing is to insure no MAJOR Olympic event starts or ends at the height of rush hour.
1) Quite a few hotels are located along the Lexington Avenue line. So are many restaurants. People won't be using the subway just to go from the events to their hotels, they want to see the city.
2) NIMBY who? Who said city money had to build it. There are a lot of technologies who would like some airplay in a LARGE market such as New York. My plan is to have the city channel its money towards the subway, while a PRIVATE firm handles the temporary rail line. It has been shown before that if the NIMBYs can't get to the source of the dollars (the AirTrain money was collected from air travelers), they would be hard-pressed to win if you do your homework.
3) You will have massive capacity problems between 9AM-11AM, 2PM-4PM, and 7PM-9PM all over the subway. Just because the event starts at 10AM doesn't mean those people will GET ON THE TRAIN at 10AM. It means they will get on at 9AM or 9:15AM to get a good seat at the venue. Standees still exist on certain lines (primarily the Lex) at 9AM and even on the first or second 10AM express. Can they handle the crush? Of course, the bid committee may think that the rush hour crowds immediately show up at 4PM and leave at 7PM. HAHAHAHAHA! Who's doing the transit planning for them again?
4) If it's a temporary line until the FULL Second Avenue Subway is operational, then this means that the line won't last forever. NIMBYs want to portray that large urban infrastructure projects will cause permanent harm. If I give them the option of voting it away with a 3/5 or 2/3 majority once the full subway is operational, this structure would be seen as a necessary gap-filler until the MTA does their job. Temporary structures are easier to clear NIMBYs when there is a clear plan for taking it down.
Hmm, well, screw Airtrain type operation, NIMBYS will scream bloody murder about such an operation (noise of two wheel steel rails, ATO outside their bedroom window, etc etc), it works down the middle of the Van Wyck, but not down a residential street. And how long would such an ROW take to build? You only have 10 years to go from nothing to something, when did Airtrain start getting planned (I may be mistaken, it could be possible, but how close do you wanna cut it?)?
Since I'm currently on my Seattle bent, I'd advocate a Monorail, similar in type to the Alweg designed monorails currently zipping between Downtown and Seattle Center. They are quieter than any car on the road, they have excelent acceleration, and their ROW is cheap, simple, and prefab. The line in Seattle was built in ten months, with out seriously disrutpting traffic flow along fifth avenue.
Unfortunately ALWEG went out of business shortly after it built the Seattle Monorail (free of cost no less! [no wonder they went out of business]), but Hitachi of Japan has continued to build quite advanced ALWEG designs for Asian monorail systems, and it's systems could be readily adaptable to the situation on 2nd Ave in New York.
A monorail offers another advantage over a two rail subway or people mover, it is much more street friendly than any two rail project. Their monobeam prefab track allows much more light to reach the ground, and disrupts the neighborhood only minimally. It may just end up that the people want the monorail after the Olympics are over, after all, look at seattle, after the Worlds Fair, the Monorails stuck around, and are now over 40 years old. Such a system could complement the Second Ave Subway. If the SAS uses local stations at distances closer to express stations on most Manhatten Trunks, use the monorail to fill in the gaps in service. The Monorail would stop at every other street, the Subway at every 6th. At the SAS stations, there could be a fare controlled transfer for the SAS riders. Thus you get express and local service without double decked tunnels, four-wide tunnels, just two unobstructive guideways. And as a bonus, you don't flush money down the toilet with a throwaway Airtrain for the Olymics, but rather enhance the transit needs of the city with a permanent addition to it's system.
Id like to see the second avenue, extension of the 7 to Javits plus a tenth ave line perhaps as the extension of the L to upper Manhattan. With a 10th ave line, there would be a subway within tweo blocks of the Hudson River. Make both bored tunnels. Of course 10th Ave woudl connect to New Penn Station, Javits and Port Authority (long passageway similar to IRT to IND) and 59th Columbus Circle(long passageway), 125 (long passageway to IND and IRT 1 and Lenox.) It would turn off over the George Washington brtidgre or a new river tunnel to NJ after a transfer via passageway at 175 for the bus station at GW Bridge.
Alo on the wish list is a 125 street Crosstown Line from Hudson River to La Guardia with transfers to all trains at their respective 125 st stops. This could be called the K train and could even meet the 7 line in a dual structure such as Queensboro Plaza.
Why not dream?
I added news and photos to my site: http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains
Great!! Though what is with the 'do u talk 2 yourself' thing near the header?
You have some very nice pictures. I looked particularly at your Far Rockaway section. Of particular interest were those photos taken in and around the Edgemere (Beach 36) station.
It looks like the beach is in fairly good shape and that the boardwalk has been given a recent facelift. How crowded they used to be in that location on a weekend, with not only those that lived there, but people coming by subway for the day. Nature, in the form of trees and bushes and grass, has reclaimed the land that the bungalows and rooming houses once sat on. I see the school building on Beach 35 still stands.
The last summer for these streets was 1969....Apollo 11....Woodstock. I lived at 114 Beach 39. Sometime that winter, they knocked down all the summer places between Beach 44 and Beach 30. The places on the boardwalk shut down maybe one year later. The higher numbers were already destroyed for several years. We (the "summer trash") were told it was for urban renewal. Apparently, it never happened.
We moved on to Beach 26, but you saw the end coming. After 1978, even my parents gave up when the bungalow set they were living in burnt to the ground. (It was a common joke in the late 60's that every time you heard a fire engine, you'd say, "Hey! Another landlord taking his insurance money!")
Anyway, one of the best things about Rockaway still exists: the subway....the views....Hammels Wye....the drawbridge....the dash to Howard Beach....the rich LIRR history. Thanks for the pictures.
You're very welcome. And thanks for telling me about life on Far Rockaway. I find the area, as it exists today, simply amazing. It is hard to believe that the events you described took place and then nothing ever came of it. This is prime real estate, is it not?? It is amazing to walk around there now and see the jungle, with streets running through. And a subway station that is literally in the middle of no where, except I guess there is civilization on the other side of the tracks.
One rumor we use to hear surface was that the city was waiting for legalized gambling, either state-wide, or just in designated zones; then, they could use the entire shore line of the peninsula and have development which would dwarf Atlantic City.
Back in 1969, the other side of the tracks (or, as we referred to it, the "bay side") was some "permanent" housing for the half block between the viaduct and Rockaway Beach Blvd; then for most of the block between that street and Beach Channel Drive. That first half block could have been accurately described as a slum. North of Beach Channel Drive to the bay there were other summer rentals, particularly on the streets that crossed the viaduct (Beach 38, 41, 44), though I didn't go there often. I have no idea what exists there now.
North of the viaduct in the Beach 50's was a housing project. My cousin lived there most of his youth.
East of Beach 35 there was nicer, permanent housing away from the "beach blocks" (on the numbered streets south of Seagirt Blvd).
Actually, the area where you were and what I described was Edgemere. Far Rock (we used to call it that) was generally the area around the Far Rockaway station. The "center" of Far Rockaway was the corner of Mott and Central Avs. Actually, south of Mott Av, the name of Central Av is Beach 20 St, but most of the summer people still called it Central Av. My guess is that at one time that was its name. Hopefully, someone on this board could confirm that or not. Far Rockaway was where you went to the movies on rainy days (3 theaters at one time! The RKO Strand, the smaller RKO Columbia (which played Loews movies) and the Pix), or got your shoes for back-to-school, or went to the library when your mother forced you to read something so that your brain wasn't seaweed by the end of summer.
One day, I'll write that book....
I struggle to find geneology always hitting the 'brick wall.' Legend has it some distant relations on my mothers side lived on the Penninsula. Today, we call them 'squatters.' CI peter
Interesting term.
By the way, the last I heard the bungalows on Beach 24 thru Beach 26 that are further away from the beach had space heaters installed and are now used as permanent housing. That's a death trap waiting to happen.
My favorite picture...
http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains/r68-var00017.jpg
R68As on the Q Express. Yeahhh... I rode on one of two shortly after July 22, 2001. That'd be a treat after the 9th to see those.
Yeah I had heard on SubTalk that they were running some R-68A's on the diamond-Q. Still, I was pretty amazed to have seen that and gotten the photo.
That photo of the Brighton line 0016,ipq would make an interesting model,the photos are great. thanks for sharing.
I just updated my site with a ton of Redbird and R-142 photos! Check it out! http://www.brianweinberg.com/trains
Man loses limbs, but not life:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-bc-ny--manhit-subway0828aug28.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dreddots%2Dheadlines
Knock , knock. Who'se there? Moron! I feel no sympathy for a person who gets hurt or killed for their stupidity. Lets see if he turns around and sues the TA.
That's a little harsh given that they don't have any idea what he was doing on the tracks. Could he have been pushed? Or lost consciousness?
On the contrary, they have a very good idea what he was doing on the tracks. According to the train operator, the guy jumped. Now, that doesn't mean some well meaning 'legal eagle' won't take his case.
TrainDude speaks with wisdom always!!! There goes my raise! CI peter
He jumped!!
Poor Fellow. Can't even do a suicide correctly.
Elias
Yeah like that stupid woman a few weeks ago who "went into a subway tunnel to sleep" or some dumb story like that, got hit by a train, and sued the MTA for $1.4 million and won.
Which spineless scum of a lawyer even consideres suing the TA when the client was so obviously wrong?!?!?!?
I sincerely hope MTA defends, appeals and otherwise does everything possible to get this thrown out...
Morons like this get me unbelieveably mad. And we wonder why the TA is always out of money....
They're not MORONS! They're DUMB GOLD-DIGGING BITCHES as well.
Spineless and scum are redundant when referring to ambulance chasers.
Man loses limbs, but not life:
The man is now starting a new career as an author. His first book will be entitled A Farewell to Arms ... And Legs.
"His first book will be entitled A Farewell to Arms ... And Legs."
Even if he doesn't sue the MTA and win, the city/state will have to care for him for the rest of his life. He won't ever be able to feed himself or even go potty without assistance. A miserable life in a nursing home with no way out.
He should have jumped to the track a little sooner, so that he could be standing up when the train hit him.
And BTW: he *can't* sue......
HE DOESN'T HAVE A LEG TO STAND ON!
Since there was no permanent damage to his spine or brain, he could be fitted with prosthetics. He could walk again.
Life will be different for him. But he has no choice now.
And BTW: he *can't* sue......
HE DOESN'T HAVE A LEG TO STAND ON!
Investigators tried to ask him what happened, but he couldn't help - he's stumped.
You guys are really getting cruel here...I hope he doesn't sign on to this website from a hospital bed...
You guys are really getting cruel here...I hope he doesn't sign on to this website from a hospital bed...
Might be a bit difficult for him to work the keyboard ... but maybe not:
A woman was waiting for her blind date to arrive when the doorbell rang. She opened the door, and to her extreme shock saw a man with no arms or legs. At a real loss for words, she stammered "Uh, oh, I, uh, I don't think you're, uh, quite what I was expecting, I mean, we won't be able to do much if we go out."
The limbless man gave her a big grin and said, "We'll be able to do plenty - after all, I rang the doorbell, didn't I?"
That's really bad...
HAHAHAHAH!!1
Lighten up, Ron....The guy was a complete idiot! For his foolish decision, he will plagued forr the rest of his life.... His wrongdoing...his choice...
But we taxpayers will be picking up some of the cost of taking care of him (in more ways than one).
How so..? If that's the case, why bother paying for freeloaders like him!?!?!
You would like to stop paying your Medicare taxes? I don't recommend it...
I wasn't implying that...
You guys are really getting cruel here...
Not really.
Seeing, and expressing some 'humor' (sick or otherwise) serves to vent emotions, and to blunt the edge of tragedy.
Maybe I am sick... but brains spilled on a highway or a kid dying in his mother's arms from an accidently infliceted gunshot wound are part and parcel of the things I get to deal with. These things do not get to me like they might to others. Were I to bottle it up, then I would be hurting a whole lot, and might not be able to continue to serve my community as an EMT.
Elias
Fair enough. But on-line in a public forum, one should be careful...
I work for a radio show called "The Next Big Thing" at WNYC. We're putting together a series about the subway, and I'm looking for stories. I'm wondering if anyone has a story about the subways-- about an experience they've had on the subway, an attachment they have to a particular station-- a story, really, about anything at all relating to the subway. The stories would be recorded and used for possible radio broadcast.
If you have a story, contact Curtis Fox:
cfox@wnyc.org
212-669-7017
Thanks
Get ready for a deluge.
I love the fast pace of the 2nd Ave Subway.
WINK WINK
Say, did you hear the story about the long abandoned but never used 76th St station ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I live in Suffolk and have Brookhaven Cablevision. A few weeks ago they shifted some of our channels. I used to have a few different "Metro" channels. A few weeks ago they got rid of one of the Metro Channels and added TV Land instead, in it's place. On the Metro channel that they took away, there used to be a show called "Subway Q&A" which had a guy going around the subway asking people goofy questions and asking them to do silly things. It was a pretty funny show, and had great subway footage. I was just wondering if I am now missing out on this show, or was the whole channel abolished with it's shows around the time they shifted my channel. Does anyone here still get this Metro Channel and this show "Subway Q&A", or is it gone completely?
You mean you're not overjoyed because you can now see reruns of "The Brady Bunch" and "Emergency?"
Subway Q and A on comes on for 5 mins between Full fontal fashion.And the guy is rich collier.Its used to come on at 10:30
It only runs 5 minutes now? What time does it come on? It used to be a half hour show when I remember it on the other Metro channel I got and like you said was on at 10:30 PM. Maybe I still get the 5 minute version on the other Metro Channel I still get. I think the one I lost was Metro Learning channel (not sure), which had Subway Q&A. I still get some other Metro Channel (that I'm hoping you are talking about) and of course Metro Traffic and Weather (which of course never had the Subway Q&A show).
It come son between the bakes of full fontal fashion
I loved watching Q and A. The 5 minute segments really stink. I emailed Metrotv, telling them cutting Subway Q&A was a bad choice. They even cut my favorite shows "Welcome Back, Kotter" and "Car 54, where are you?". You should email MetroTv and tell them how you feel about the Q&A changes.
Oh, to be a Nielsen family!
Who would want to see 24 hours of "Full Frontal Vision"?
NOT ME, BROTHER
Not me that joint is so wack
I feel a little better that it's not just my cable company that got rid of it, but at the same time I really miss that show. It was a lot of fun.
The reason they cut it off is because the ratings were down and they wanted to put fashion on that channel.Did u see the marthon on new years.That was the the last time it came on
No, I didn't see it New Years, as I went out for New Years, and wasn't near a TV. If I had known it was going to be the last time, I would have set the VCR to record it, so I could watch it later.
It was great it was on from like 10:30pm to 10:30pm the next day
And do your best Gunther Toody impression.
Oooh! Oooh!
Subway Q&A is back on the air. Right now Metro is airing reruns every night at 7 and 10... but in a few weeks they'll be putting on brand new shows. Woohoo. I'm a huge fan. Here are a few of my favorite questions from the show.
If you had to eat one member of your family (or a friend) who would it be?
How are you getting more and more like your parents?
What does heaven smell like?
What's the one thing you wish you had said to your ex before you broke up?
Stop inhaling steel dust lol
This show at least was original...it is far superior to the tacky and off key fashion shows that it had replaced.
The origonal host of the series was the guy who created "Pop Up Video" on VH-1. I forget his name. He left and Rich Collier took over. I knew one of the riders "abducted" by the origonal host. He and several other people went to an attractive girl's apartment to watch Disney videos. (At least I think it was Disney--it's been a while.)
Now they show those 5 minute segments during "Full Frontal Fashion." In and of itself, "FFF" isn't interesting unless you like fashion. Brooke Alexander, the host, is a goddess; but that's about it. Meto-TV was so much better when they had those little vingettes on what's going on in New York and where to find stuff (e.g., the best foods, the best clubs, the best discount stores, the best places to take the kids, etc.) Now the station just stinks. Can't they keep a show on at 10:00? Isn't "FFF" like the third prime-time talk vehicle they've had on this channel? They used to have an attractive woman named Molly and an unfunny comedian. Then they had Michael Musto and that Dorothy Lucey wanna-be. (Why anyone would aspire to be Dorothy Lucey is beyond me.) Now they have "FFF."
Hey Cablevision! Put the YES network on, invest in the teams at the Garden, get back to basics with the MetroChannel, and put "Subway Q&A" back on where it belongs!
"Hey Cablevision! Put the YES network on, invest in the teams at the Garden, get back to basics with the MetroChannel, and put "Subway Q&A" back on where it belongs!"
My thoughts exactly! :-) -Nick
Yes.Im switching to satelitte
I can't blame you! -Nick
Considering the massive financial problems Cablevision has, I wouldn't be shocked if Metro Channel (#16 on the Woodbury System) and the Metro Traffic & Weather Channel (#17 on the Woodbury System) will both be dropped and the space rented to someother more profitable programming.
After all, Cablevision is closing many Wiz stores, looking to sell their chain of movie theathers, a small cellular phone serive in the Cleveland area.
Better watch those segments while you can.
Ah, the problems of being a huge media conglomerate with nothing to hide...
*cough* Disney *cough* Sony
*cough* AOL/Time Warner *cough* Viacom
Here's a novel idea. How about transit transit news have Subway Q&A?? I think they would handle it well.
There was a new Q&A on last night! First one I've seen in ages. The host was trying start a party planning company on the 1 train. Great stuff. Anyone else catch it?
I live in London, England and plan to visit New York for a few days in October. Can anyone tell me which routes will still be running Redbirds and of any favourite locations for taking photographs or just watching the trains go by?!
By October,(if at all) they will most likely be a few trainsets running on the #7 Flushing line. There might be a few running during the rush hours on the #4.
Is the Seventh Av line (1,2,3,9) completely rid of them?
I know the The Grand Central Shuttle is running R-62s...
Well the 1 all r62s the 3 all r62s and no 9 till september 15
and the 2 is all r142 with some redbirds sometimes.The 3 will be all r142 soon.So look at the redbirds while u can
They will save a few for the Transit Museum, I'm sure.
Yup.esspecially with the renvation
Actually they already have an R33WF (single) car in the Museum. It is still in the original World's Fair colors. I see reason top repaint it.
If they do save any of the rest of the fleet it will be housed probably at Coney Island. The Transit Museum's tracks are rather full up as it is.
R-33 9306 also has its original innards - it never went through GOH.
I doubt they would do that. There would be no reason to paint over its original colors in favor of the redbird paint scheme. To me, the original World's Fair colors looked much better, it just wasn't graffiti-resistant. I'm curious though, what was 9306's special significance? I would have thought they should also have saved 7750 (the first R-26), instead of sending it seaworthy.
7750 was not the first R26 delivered.
Perhaps not, but it was the lowest-numbered R-26, and while it may not have been the first delivered, it was certainly part of the first order. What was the original color of those cars? They look almost black in the photos.
Kale green
Eeeck! It looks horrible. I think the Redbirds (before they were redbirds) looked best in the turquoise two-tone WF paint scheme.
the R type IRT color guide--
R12,14- Grey/orange
R15-???
R17-Maroon
R21-28- Kale Green
R29,33ml,36ml- Bright red
R33S, R36WF- Blue/white
The R-15s were originally maroon with yellow or cream-colored bands all the around below the belt rail and roofline, like this:
nice looking... R15s were definitely the most "interesting" looking cars of all time
I love those little "porthole" windows - they also looked great on the R-11's. Just out of curiousity, when were the R-11's scrapped? I know 8016 was involved in a collision, and presently 8013 is the only one still in existance. Thanks.
1981
Thank you. Seems a shame a few more weren't salvaged for fan trips. Guess I should be greatful even one was saved.
is that a conductors indication light on 5999
i didnt think that the 15s would have gotten them.
That's a guard light.
Look at #7225. The south destination sign says South Ferry. Would that be the inner or outer loop ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill: That would definetly be the outer loop. The only train to platform on the inner loop was the Bowling Green Shuttle.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hmmm - in the very right of the picture, is that gentleman also snapping a pic of that train?
Possibly.
Thanks for the info. Guess from now on, we'll have to live with one color - stainless silver. What a drag....
they should paint all cars to origional appearances
Yes, let's just throw away MORE money.
Peace,
ANDEE
yaay
When have you ever known the TA to do otherwise. Wasting money is what they're all about :o)
Let's see. Some of the other dumb moves they've made over the years:
Dismantling the outer end of the Jamaica el long before the Archer Ave. line was ready.
Sending the Triplexes to slaughter when they had at least another ten years of useful life left in them.
Add to that slaughter of the R-27/R-30's when they too had at least another ten years of useful life. I'm not even gonna comment on the tearing down of the Jamaica Ave. El except to say that the man who proposed the dismantling ought to be shot.
"I'm not even gonna comment on the tearing down of the Jamaica Ave. El except to say that the man who proposed the dismantling ought to be shot."
Would you volunteer to be next wearing the blindfold? Tearing down the Jamaica El was, in contrast to some of the other dismantlings in other boroughs, a very kind proposition to the neighborhood.
Now, there is one caveat: The Archer Avenue extension, which replaced it, should have had the lower level (J train) exttended beyond Jamaica Center. It still can be extended one day (the only obstacle is $$$). And NYC's financial problems stalled the project for several years. That was bad.
Today downtown Jamaica looks very good in comparison with 20 years ago - and the Archer Av extension set off that improvement process. One Jamaica Center is open for business, and Jamaica Station's renovation (incl. AirTrain) is on schedule.
I'm sorry the El was taken down before the subway which replaced it was completed. But that's all water under the bridge now...
Other than being the lowest-numbered single R-33, you got me.
what was 9306's special significance?
It was damaged. It is currently unworkable.
I don't believe the damage wouldn't have been repaired, but they wanted a car for the transit museum, so it makes sense to take the one that had been damaged at that time.
Well the redbirds are on the 4,5,7 and 2 sometimes
u will have a good chance looking at redbirds on the 4 and 7.But more the 7
By October....hmmm...
Too late for the 2 already.
Middays (maybe), certainly rush hours on the 4 if you're patient.
Similar circumstances on the 5, but probably a few less trains than at present (assuming the linkbar problems are no big deal).
Most definitely on the 7--DAILY!
If you'd like a WP file with some photograpic guidance drop an e-mail, but I won't be able to respond until after vacation on September 10.
Good Hunting!
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
Hmm, depends on what the existence of the 'birds will be like by October.
Most likely, we'll have some considerable sets on the 7, most likely since they'll be tossed last as it seems. Though the line does have a slowly expanding # of R62A's.
Sporiadic appearances due to various reasons will bring them to the 2, 5 and 4.
As several have said the #7 is your best bet.
Tip: AM go for a Red Bird Express from Main Street ...
PM go for a Red Bird Express from Grand Central ...
Enjoy the ride while you can.
Try the 7. My favorite photo stops on the 7 are Queensboro Plaza (despite the incident with R33 earlier, I took pictures of trains there within feet of an officer without being bothered), 33rd, 46th, Junction, and Willets Point. Make sure at Willets Point, u cross the footbridge over Corona Yard and take pictures there, too.
Enjoy your time in NYC!
Can anyone tell me which routes will still be running Redbirds
answered by others already
and of any favourite locations for taking photographs or just watching the trains go by?!
In no particular order:
- Stillwell Avenue (although by the time you arrive, only one line will be serving the complex at all times while it undergoes a multi-year rebuilding). Same would be true for Neptune Ave (F - good view of CI yard) and the double-El between Stillwell & West 8th in Brooklyn - no service to these stations at all during the construction project)
- Broadway Junction (J/Z/L)
- Queensboro Plaza (N,W,7), Woodside / 61st St (7, LIRR, terrific in the evening rush hour), 111th St and Willets Point / Shea Stadium (7)
- E 180th St (2/5)
- The Williamsburgh Bridge pedestrian path (J/Z)
- Rockaway Boardwalk between Beach 36th and Beach 60th Stations (A)(although trains are few and far between, the open space allows you a clear view between all three stations from the boardwalk)
- Spuyten Duvyil station (Metro North) facing the Broadway Bridge
- 168th St, 181st St, 191st St and Dyckman St (1/9. Compare / contrast 168th with 181st)
- Whitlock Ave (6) and Elder Ave (6).
That should get you started :)
--Mark
Spuyten Duyvil is tucked around a curve and overshadowed
by the Columbia (C) rock... I think you mean Marble Hill.
...Add:
E149-Grand Concourse on the 2/5
(if you stand at the tail of the nb platform
you are practically in the mouth of the tunnel,
YET still considered "on the public platform")
This thread is a new idea for SubTalk. You may think of it as a pilot program. The concept is simple: When you reply to a post, you answer the question that was asked in the post you replied to. Once you've answered, you then ask a question of your own. I'll start off with a rail topic, but feel free to hijack this thread and turn portions of it into whatever topic you choose. The format of this thread should be as follows:
Answer: the R32
Question: When were the Brightliners delivered?
Have fun!!
Answer: 1964
Question: What are your questions?
Answer: It's below
Question: Why did you bring this crappy format over from Rider Diaries for?
Answer: Because I need a thread that won't die so quickly. Even trolls like schen016 and busfan have threads that live a long time.
Question: Who likes cookies?
Answer: I do.
Question: Who doesn't?
You need help. 1-800-subtalkers anonymous.
Answer: Who is the Cookie Monster?
Quesion: Do we have to phrase it as a question, Alex? :)
Answer: I guess not
Question: will the Mets ever win a game?
Answer: Yes, chocolate chip especially.
Question: Don't you realize that making a thread just to see it last a long time is the purpose of trolling?
Answer: No, I did'nt know that. I want a long lasting thread cause i'm getting ignored here on subtalk.
Question:Why does subtalk feed trolls like schen016 and busfan, while ignoring me? Am I a troll?
They get the same attention as the local drunk: we laugh and maybe respond, but they're not taken seriously. It's up to you to decide whether that's the sort of attention you want, or if you want to be taken seriously.
Not all posts have to have 100 responses to be good. In fact many of the best posts have had few responses.
stop whining.... you're getting responses, even if it's not as many as you want.
True. Sub/Bustalk should be a formal place for discussions on transit, not to have fun. That's where Rider Diaries comes in.
If you want to participate in such a thread, go there. In fact, at the top of the thread listing, it grandly tells not to start such threads as this....
You realize just having this mostly useless thread is taking resources away from the rest. And this isn't really a weekend getaway spot. It's for rail topics. Lets not call anyone trolls for THAT reason. Or we'd have a lot. We were all newbies before, remember?
This thread was a spinoff of the highly successful strappies thread " Ask\Answer a question". This thread was supposed to be an instant hit, but instead it's a dud.
Don;t feel bad.... Just don't do it again!!!
Participate at the Strappies, instead.... Do you... What's your name...?
And I call people trolls when they make ridiculous demands here and on BusTalk.
Answer;the COMPUTER Why? IT just does.......
Question: Who was William G. Gove, and why should SubTalkrs care?
Answer:1964
Question:What was the last model contract that had straps and axiflow fans like the the redbirds before GOH?
Answer:1964
Question:What was the last model contract that had straps and axiflow fans like the redbirds before GOH?
Hmm, someone has been reading the Straphangers Board?
You have entirely too much time to spend on this board, so my two cents worth is .... BAD IDEA.
According to Channel 2 news, I just watched a newcast (6:00) that showed the Greenwich Street line ready to open. They said the line will open Sept 1st! That's what I heard them say (although I heard here the date was Sept 15th). It could have been the normal "new mixup". Anyway, in any event they showed the tunnels and the totally retiled Rector Street station. It looked great. So can't wait to see it when it opens.
Testing begins on 8/31. In early Sept. (according to this report, 9/1), the TA will run empty trains through the loop. This means that normal 7th Ave IRT service will resume to Chambers Street and Brooklyn. Until 9/15, no passengers can use the Rector St. and South Ferry Stations. On 9/15, all stations except Courtlandt St. will be back in service.
>>Testing begins on 8/31. In early Sept. (according to this report, 9/1), the TA will run empty trains through the loop. This means that normal 7th Ave IRT service will resume to Chambers Street and Brooklyn.<<
So what you're saying is the #1 goes back to being the Bway-7th Ave local ending at Chambers St and no longer going to Brooklyn ? And maybe we're getting back the #2 & #3 Bway-7th Ave EXPRESS before 9/15 ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yup -- almost normal service. On behalf of all those who went back to 2 Broadway and smelled the fumes for months, there is only one little perk I'd like. A ride through the rebuilt line on 9/11, whether ready for the public or not. At least those who worked on the job (I didn't ) should get the ride.
Wait, so does that mean 2 and 3 trains will resume running express to Brooklyn and 1/9 skip-stop service will be coming back next week?
dont buy that,i really dont believe it.my gut feeling tells me that everything will stay the same,it'll probably be those short turn 1 trains that end at Chambers that'll go through the tunnel and back and thats it.
Story in NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/28/nyregion/28PENN.html
Once every few months, some politicians get together and do a photo op and claim that the new Penn Station is about to get underway. All they have to do is straighten some things out with the Post Office. Trouble is, those little details never seem to get cleaned up.
I don't believe the PO wants to give up that space (and why would it?) despite their claims that they would like to see Penn Station move ahead.
I'm not sure it's the right move anyway. You'd be getting out between 8th and 9th Avenue...way west of where the real action is. It'd be a long underground walk to 7th Avenue.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Only Amtrak would be moving. The LIRR would stay right where it is.
Not sure about NJ Transit, though.
NJ Transit won't move either. Well, it will move into its new concourse that it has been building near 7th Avenue, but won't move again into the Farley building. What I'm wondering is what happens to the current Amtrak/NJT concourse.
"What I'm wondering is what happens to the current Amtrak/NJT concourse"
It probably continues to be used by any Amtrak passengers who aren't tourists. The whole Farley thing strikes me as a colossal waste of $$ in order to create a station that somehow manages to be both more inconvenient and less functional than the current.
CG
I suspect the real reason for the "New Penn Station", AKA Farley Post Office is that somebody at Amtrak still bemoans the fact that short-sited PRR management tore down Penn Station and a sports facility was built in it's place, so Amtrak is running trains into the basement of a sports palace.
Apparently, this hit a chord on Massachusetts Avenue, and somebody higher up in the ATK food chain figured that the national rail passenger system needed a New York terminal as good as Grand Central*
and since Farley was designed by the same person that designed old Penn, that's what Amtrak wanted to "recreate" Penn Station.
*The prime reason that Grand Central is here today and Penn Station is gone is that the desctruction of Penn sparked the preservation movement - You should not wantonly destroy the treasures of the past.
Without that movement, Grand Central would not be here today. Look what New York Central had already done - look at the Pan Am Building looming over Grand Central. Think they would have done the same thing that PRR did?
No doubt about it, but wasn't the Met Life Bldg. built after New York Central tried and failed to tear GCT down, not before?
No -- coincedentally (or not-so coincendentally) the work on the Met Life (originally the Pan-Am) Building began in 1962, almost at the exact same time as demolition work began on Pennsylvania Station. It wasn't until around 1967, as the Garden and 2 Penn Plaza were nearing completion that the New York Central announced their plans to tear down Grand Central (no doubt the plans had been around for at least a couple of years, but they kept them to themselves before then).
That battle ended up lasting a decade, until the Supreme Court's ruling that the Landmarks Preservation Act was constitutional.
I want the 4 train extended into westchester so that i don't have to get off the train and take metro notrh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where in Westchester do you think it should go? Westchester isn't exactly a small county. Suggesting a routing might be an idea.
Why does subtalk like trolls? Look how fast someone took to my Imitation troll thread. Anyway, perhaps the Galleria in white plains.
Quit wasting space and get lost.
are you crazy or what the hell? TA doesnt extend anything past city limits so cut the crap will you please,your just making a complete fool of yourself and not being too humorous while ya at it
There are SOME NYC Transit BUSES(and some private buses) that go outside NYC limits.
NYC Buses: Q5, Q85 go to Green Acres Mall in Nassau County
Bx16 (westbound to Norwood 205 Street station) a stop a bit past the Bronx/Westchester border on the corner of Mundy Lane North and Sandford Blvd (Pitman Ave in the Bronx) before making the left turn on Mundy Lane North and turning left on the corner of Nereid Avenue (E 238 Street) and Mundy Lane. A Mount Vernon Basketball (or something with Mt Vernon on it) sign is right over the bus stop map and next to the bus sign. Many Bx16 buses start here on weekdays.
The South Side of the street is in the Bronx, the North Side of the street (at least on that block) is in Westchester. According to online maps, the Bx16 does cross over the border eastbound as well (as does a part of Mt Saint Michael's School's back yard as well), but has the last stop in the Bronx (Mundy Lane bus) as the street curves under the border at the end of the block.
The #2 and the #5 (doesn't matter which one) could be extended into Mount Vernon. But the Bx34 has a better chance of going to the Mt Vernon East station in Gramatan Avenue.
>>your just making a complete fool of yourself<<
Now is that a nice thing to say?
He is not a complete fool yet. He is just a fool. Maybe in another dozen or so on his postings he might be complete.
Why am I a fool? I am imitating posters which you have yet to call fools. I post lots of useful info here. Why doesn't SubTalk like jokes or lightening up?
Lightening up????
I am shocked to hear you say that.
Mainly because the word is lighten.
Trust me - the (ir)regulars in here know when to joke and when to be serious (and when to combine the two).
This is not the Straphangers Board. We don't play around in here like they do there.
Ok, so, SubTalk is serious and Strappies is for when you feel like joking. Are you formerly known as Trainrider?
Actually, the TA has the right to extend services past city limits but usually will not if it causes too many complaints from local residents.
For example, the proposed Q79 bus line extension to the LIRR did not require Nassau County approval. MTA let it go due to political and NIMBY headaches.
This WILL happen once you pay for the construction !
Bill "Newkirk"
"I want the 4 train extended into westchester so that i don't have to get off the train and take metro notrh!"
Forgetting temporarily about the implausibility of what you suggest, which would you take from GCT to White Plains:
- a subway taking 70 minutes, costing two fares?
- or a MNRR train taking 35 and costing about 3 or 4 subway fares?
I agree. The 4 should be even longer. So that T/O's like me can do two trips from Yonkers to Utica, and one from Yonkers to New Lots local, on Sundays.
It will be easier when they start having completely automated trains robots/machines controlling the train. No human T/Os or C/Rs, so these trains can go anywhere. First they would have to be used on the #5 line at night as a test and then on all other shuttle routes. Then a slow progression to some lines.
Post any information you have.
Do you mean the R-68's ?
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess.
And R46's will run on the Dubya.
And the R32s will make a debut on the #2 line.Well r62s are in the IRT the numbered routes.THe r68 is in the b division the letter division
Hello platform destruction!
I sure hope not. I'd have to give up joyriding on my favorite train if that were to happen.
nope,never gonna happen except for some insane reason R68's get sent to 207 and Pitkin Yards but i dont see that ever happening so its a longshot
R-62s are IRT cars so the answer to your question is "NO". However, if you are asking if the R-68s will ever run on the A line, it's not likely in the near future but it is entirely possible way down the road. Once the R-160s are delivered, if the R-44 fleet is scrapped, either in part or in total, 'Operations Planning' may opt to keep 75' cars on the A line. Then it would simply be a question of where the 75' cars are pulled from.
..about a week ago i fed an MVM a $20, looking to get a $17 card. it took and, and did nothing. no receipt, no change., nothing. it just sat there asking for it's $17 dollars...
so i gave the 212metrocard number a call, told them the machine number, location, and approx. time, and today got my $20 check in the mail. they said it would take 3 weeks, but it was 1.5 at the most.
pretty good service, i must say...
Playing Las Vegas slots again? Your crumply old twenty rolled up in the Dollar Bill Acceptor and jammed. Tech sent to repair was 'time logged' and responsible to turn in the twenties shredded pieces. No revenue repair for me! CI Peter
Don't i wish! it was a pretty new 20... i'm just glad i got it back...
Don't say that until the check actually clears... ;)
I just read some where that a man was hit by a Canarsie Line train at Bedford Ave. Was it a R143 or an R42? If it was an R143 was it the first time someone was hit by an R143?
An R143 was involved in a 12-9 @ Halsey St. some months ago.
No, this happened last night. The Daily News says he jumped. No word on the equipment type.
Does it matter?
An R-142 on the Canarsie????? Duh!
Duh -- to myself! That's what happens when I haven't had my Java early enough in the morning.....:-(
Being on vacation from the TA this week, I had the opportunity to go through envelopes and folders I haven't touched in almost 10 years. I finally found the ERA Bulletin from February 1991 which had the article I wrote describing the last run of the R30's on the BMT. I was the motorman of the 7:10 from Bay Pkwy. on Monday Dec.10, 1990. Consist: N 8380/8389, 8410/8399, 8377/8366, 8384/8367 S. Arrival at Met was 8:16 PM., on time, an uneventual trip. The last 2 people to step off the train were 2 sleeping/homeless guys! It laid up to FP yard but not for long. A transfer crew bought from ENYD 10 cars: 2 spare R30's and 8 cars of R42. In those days there was an extra switch from M1 to M2 near FP yard, so yard moves in excess of 8 cars could be accomplished. The spare R30's were cut, then added to 8380. Now, the new North motor was 8408 (married to 8397). The R42's were the replacement train for the next mornings rush as the 10 cars were off the Pitkin Yard at 10:20 PM ending R30 operation on the BMT.
I take it that R30s were never permanently coupled into pairs but had to be operated that way. Reminds me of how the R44s and R46s were originally coupled, before GOH.
The R-27/30s had couplers on both ends, so they could be swapped very easily. So did the R-26s and R-28s originally.
I thought the R30 ended service on the (C) line just like the R10's. I never caught a GOH R30 on any BMT trains. Most of my memorable moments in my youth happen to be on board R30 trains during the M train's Brighton years. Forgive me and my friends for using the outsides of R30's and other fleets as an art canvas.
BK
The R30 did end their NYC Transit careers on the C, an IND line.
What a sad ending to the R30 cars. Just because they didnt have A/C doesnt mean they should of been retired. They should of been moth ball somewhere.
What a sad ending to the R30 cars. Just because they didnt have A/C doesnt mean they should of been retired. They should of been moth ball somewhere.
I remember the R30 redbirds on the (C) and on the (M) in the early 1990's.
:-) Andrew
hey guys i was just sayin hey. im not doing too well because i didnt qualify as a Metro North Trackworker. i was taken out of service, and now hopefully MNR will find a new craft for me. thoughts and prayers appreciated. i just hope they find something for me to do, or i might end up back making those big macs! I CANT LET THAT HAPPEN
Become a locomotive engineer. I'm trying to become one myself. Any tips guys?
??? So you got hired as a track worker and they took you O/O/S? Did they say why? Not enough upper body strength? I mean they put you through all that training, so they aren't going to put you O/O/S after a few weeks on the job, no?
AEM7
Wow ... that chews. What was the problem? (if you don't mind telling us in public where THEY might see it) ... is there a good chance they can move you into something else? My sympathies ... got a plan there yet?
I take it you're definitely not interested in restaurant management as a career.
OK - despair not. MTA has a zillion different kinds of jobs to do. If you don't initially qualify as a trackworker, start with something you can qualify for. Can you be in one of the other trades or crafts? How about facilities? How about assistant conductor? How about working for a contractor who does work for MTA, like one of the firms which will be working on the East-Side access tunnels in Sunnyside Yard?
hey guys thank you for your concerns. right now my plan is to go get paid tomorrow and call my boss the lady who hired me, and hopefully she will give me a new craft. but she should because MNR been hiring alot lately
Once again, here's hoping there's something else they can slide you into there. One problem with new hires in a civil service reality is that you're a "provisional" and that means that until you become "permanent" if they don't like you, they can ditch you for any reason or whim at all (though they WOULD have to write up some paperwork to explain their rationale for letting you go) ...
Whatever you do, try to keep your head and your wits about you, be NICE and see if there's something else that you can qualify for since you're already in the door. If your "abilities" were unsatisfactory for the position you came into, is there anything you can do to meet them quickly or reatin the position and find another angle there?
(I don't quite know what the problem was and I do understand that you probably won't want to discuss it publicly here) ... I'm pulling for ya for what little that's worth though.
Agreed! When you have to make a personal appearance, be neat and clean...you don't have to wear a suit. Never argue, never show anger,
always co-operate and show your interest in the work. It is very possible that a complaint was entered in the records because you failed to install something or did it improperly...IF you learned the work properly and missed something, a supervisor failed to do his job properly...you cannot complain but you retain the right to ask. Check with your union local...I know that they don't 'give a rats ass'
for newbies and provisionals BUT you never know! I put up with a whole lot...never get angry...never refuse a job...and fix much overlooked by incompetents without writing it up...and my supervisors know it all.
MTA work is excellent work. All are in my prayers everyday. CI peter
I take it you're definitely not interested in restaurant management as a career.
I wish I could flip burgers, actually. Just for a while. The irony is, I'm not allowed to flip burgers for the summer because of my visa status, but I'm allowed to work for a transportation consulting firm. I have real grief with this. Why do they pretend that they do not welcome immigrants when they will blatantly hand me a work visa as soon as someone in transportation hires me? I want to work in transportation, but the jobs that I want to work in, e.g. for Amtrak, or one of the transit agencies... well those require U.S. citizenship! So what should I do? Work for Chicago North Western just so I get to mess with Metra's trains? It's crazy. Most of the transportation firms advertize job openings as "you must have a valid employment authorization in the U.S.", but even if you don't have one, and you apply, then they hand you a work visa. So why don't they just come clean about it and say we'll hire anyone provided you do the job well, but we won't hire you if you're ill qualified and a citizen?
I think they really need to go to a "best person for the job" philosophy.
Actually, last night, I was talking about cheap immigrant labor as a real potential problem for society. And it is. We now have a generation of U.S. citizens with college degrees who are unwilling to do some of the jobs that the immigrants do at the wages that are being paid. Suddenly everyone is hiring illegals or barely-legals claiming that they cannot find a U.S. citizen to do the job. What about paying them better? What about offering work conditions that are good enough for a U.S. citizen? Then you look at the unemployment roll and you see a bunch of U.S. college graduates complaining about immigrants taking all their work.
AEM7
AEM-7,
If you can obtain permanent residency with a job, then you can work and live here for the five years (I think it's five-you better double-check) required to gain citizenship.
Flexibility is key...
About flipping burgers: People have been known to go from flipping the burgers to managing 10 restaurants. One lady, an attorney, applied to McDonald's Corp. for a franchise. The company required her to work every entry-level job in a restaurant for two years - cleaning toilets, flipping burgers, cleaning the milkshake machine, etc. Some of her colleagues visited that McDonalds and howled with laughter at their former colleague now wearing the uniform...
At the end of the two years she plunked down a franchise fee of $50,000, and was given one restaurant to run (McDonald's owned the real estate, but the lady had rights to the building and supplier contracts). She is now a multimillionaire.
What is the purpose of being forced to do entry level work for two years, if you request a franchise? Some sort of initiation?
It's the "management should be down to earth" philosophy. I agree entirely with it. Rail management should do the same.
Not just that. If you're going to RUN a business, then you need to KNOW the business. This suits understanding the entire operation from end to end as well as building a good management BS detector. That all actually makes eminent sense, and quite in the face of the GE management philosophy, "you don't need to know how widgets are made, you just count them." :)
"That all actually makes eminent sense, and quite in the face of the GE management philosophy, "you don't need to know how widgets are made, you just count them." "
If you're going to talk about GE, you need to understand how GE works. GE actually does want you to know your widgets - much better than the next guy knows his. That's how GE stays on top.
I've sat in on Neutron Jack's seminars. Your UNDERLINGS need to pop out widgets on command. When you manage them all you've got to do is count 'em. I've actually heard him say this. :)
GE was a formidable company with "Mr Details" running it, those days are kinda over. GE is no longer a widget maker, they're a bank. That's how they've been getting over lately.
We talking about Jack Welch? He was a "Mr Detail"? Then he proclaims that all you have to do is count 'em?
I'm surprised by this. Welch is well regarded, in some circles.
AEM7
Welch was a DAMNED good moneymaker. He was interested in the details when he needed to make a decision. The people that worked for HIM were expected to have them all at the ready at any time. But do understand, that as far as the "widgets" go, Welch was legendary for getting GE *out* of the manufacturing business, dismantling factories and then subcontracting out work (and the associated costs) to former GE employees who were terminated and opened up their own little machine shops.
Just so ya know, I live just outside of Schenectady, home to GE and the now long gone ALCO locomotive works. I've seen this change over the years as GE continues to shrink. They only build what they can't easily contract out. That's the success of GE, ditching COSTS like labor, medicals, even sitting on stock. As long as widgets move in and out on time, then everything's hunky dory. But managers in GE are imbued with the "COUNT the widgets" mentality. Welch wanted managers to be able to be plugged into ANY of GE's various operations and tool and die centric managers weren't as flexible as those who could manage ANYTHING in Welch's eyes. It's worked even if there's trails of dead bodies from the work force ... Schenectady's been turned into a smoking crater from Welch's reign. The stockholders on the other hand have been quite happy.
He was interested in the details when he needed to make a decision. The people that worked for HIM were expected to have them all at the ready at any time.
Sounds like Krebs. Nothing wrong with micro-management. Krebs would ask for the details, and if you didn't know and try to make some management BS... ha, good luck, because if he has to go in and show you that he could run your subdivision better than you can, then you're out of a job.
That's the success of GE, ditching COSTS like labor, medicals... tool and die centric managers weren't as flexible as those who could manage ANYTHING in Welch's eyes.
I kind of agree with that philosophy. Unless I didn't know enough about the electrical manufacturing business, I don't imagine that the key drivers behind making a light bulb is much different to the key drivers behind making a transformer or a switch. The engineering is different, but the management drivers are the same.
I suspect when he says "just count 'em", he's just making it look simple. It's a bit like when I say that airline management is really all about "keeping 'em flying and keeping one step ahead of the Feds and the bankers".
Subcontracting is a risky business. You can lose real expertise that way. GE has obviously become a marketing facade and has structured its franchise in such a way that they guys that took the subcontracts couldn't market the products themselves. That's smart business practice. The subcontractors probably had no choice, since GE knew the costs, and was probably making different assembly plants (previously all GE) compete against each other. There isn't really a solution to that. That's what happens when there's a monopoly market.
AEM7
Well, GE doesn't make lightbulbs. Welch bought Tungsram. The Czechs make lightbulbs. GE just counts 'em. :)
If subcontractors fail, in GE's philosophy there's someone else looks just like 'em that'll make whatever next week. But like I said, Ge is no longer a manufacturer, they're a bank. GE Capital Corp is where it's at. They'll FINANCE someone else to make widgets with the GE logo on it. But THAT was Welch's game. Their biggest business is MAINTENANCE. And the folks that do it are subcontractors too. Watch Welch's expansions contract in the coming years. He knew when it was time to get OUT too. Smart boy.
Apparently Welch is a sexy boy too. He had an affair with some HBS sub-editor. She was HOT! I really have respect for a guy that has so many talents.
By the way, that's not necessarily true about GE always getting the best deal from the subcontractors. Some subcontractors are stupid, but I'm pretty sure GE loses money and/or market share on some of their product lines. I have a GE phone, like for example I've never seen a GE computer. The Chinese contractors making computers realized that it's better for them to make unbranded stuff and sell directly to the public. GE would not always have the same kind of control over the market.
AEM7
GE saw the margins for commodity items like Chinese computers as not being worth the market entry. But guess who FIXES the computers? Yep, if you've got "on site service" no matter who the vendor (Gateway, HP, you name it) ... why ... it's GE CARES! :)
Welch was smart about playing "know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em" ... his replacement doesn't seem to be quite as slick.
Light bulb is a commodity item too. GE still markets them.
The point being made here is that the Chinese equipment manufacturers decided that they could supply directly to the public. That's why the profit margins are low. The profit margins are not artificially low. The computer makers are all price takers, because there are so many of them competing.
If the light bulb manufacturers decided to do the same thing, GE would be out of the light bulb business for good. Even if GE won't finance them, someone else will. They aren't the only people with money. It would be interesting if Microsoft decides to go into the light bulbs business...
AEM7
That's a good one. Microsoft Light (tm) ... the only illumination on the planet that needs to be rebooted every ten seconds. And with each upgrade, it would grow DIMMER. :)
But yeah, many of us are amazed that GE is still doing locomotives.
That's a good one. Microsoft Light (tm) ... the only illumination on the planet that needs to be rebooted every ten seconds. And with each upgrade, it would grow DIMMER. :)
And when they flicker - it's nothing to worry about - just an undocumented feature.
Only requires a reboot of the generator until the "wink light" stops flashing. :)
People rent trailers from GE Capital for construction and event sites. Other than becoming a bank, how do you have the connection between a name like General Electric and trailer rentals?!
-Robert King
????
Your view of GE is quite jaundiced. I'm not sure you're even aware of your own prejudice here. It's understandable.
Jack Welch did not get GE out of the manufacturing business. What he did do is focus on areas of manufacturing where GE could be #1 or #2 in the market. He also recognized that capital leasing was an important business and made GE's unit the biggest in that market. While it is true that the leasing business is a bigger revenue generator than the other businesses, Welch also made GE Medical Systems into the largest business of its kind.
When Welch began his tenure as CEO GE was a bloated, top-heavy and inefficient company. When he finished it was run as a business should be run. Not only that, but thousands of managers (not just the Bob Nardellis of the world) got top-notch training allowing them to go out and run just about any other business they wanted to. The quality of GE's products improved, as well.
"Welch wanted managers to be able to be plugged into ANY of GE's various operations and tool and die centric managers weren't as flexible as those who could manage ANYTHING in Welch's eyes. It's worked even if there's trails of dead bodies from the work force .."
Now you're giving away your prejudice. Yes there were a lot of layoffs, but they would have happened anyway, sooner or later.
If Welch had not done what he did, GE would have had to lay people off anyway. The only difference is that instead of being dominant in the marketplace, GE would have ceded critical business and even more jobs to foreign competitors; shareholders would have suffered through lower stock prices, and the company would have been an even lousier place to work.
You're not giving the "tool and die" types enough credit. The smart ones who understand (or bother to learn) statistics and business methods can still thrive. The others don't, but some of that is their own fault, not GE's.
What he did do is focus on areas of manufacturing where GE could be #1 or #2 in the market. He also recognized that capital leasing was an important business and made GE's unit the biggest in that market.
Are you a GE shareholder? I don't know much about GE or the leasing business. When I think of big names in leasing, I think of guys like FURX, UTLX, and TTX. I know that GE does motive power leasing, trailer leasing, and a bunch of other things, but it's hard for me to imagine GE as the biggest and best. Even if they were the biggest (in terms of what? revenues? assets? contracts?), I don't think they dominate that marketplace (in the sense that if they were #1, then #2 is probably a formidable competitor, unlike in lightbulbs where GE is practically the only people who made them). Are they really #1 or #2? There are a lot of big boys in the leasing business. Fleet, BankOne, and many other banks are involved in a greater or lesser degree.
AEM7
GE Capital Leasing was, as of a couple of years ago, the largest lessor of railroad freight cars. If I am not mistaken, they also lease chmical tankers, trailers, industrial equipment, airplanes (but the largest commercial aircraft lessor is International Leasing Corp. based in Ireland).
Unless you're going to turn round and tell me that GE owns GATX...
See http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=GMT&script=412&layout=-6&item_id=294584
The leasing business is very fluid, and the big players at the moment are GE Capital, GATX, FURX (First Union), and TTX (ex-PRR TrucTrain Company).
AEM7
CHICAGO, May 13, 2002 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- GATX Rail today announced that it completed the acquisition of 2,700 railcars in Mexico, positioning GATX Rail as the leading rail equipment lessor in this important market. GATX de Mexico S.A. de C.V., GATX Rail's Mexican-based railcar leasing and service operation, acquired the cars from Joseph Transportation, a privately-held transportation company. Terms of the transaction were not disclosed.
Thank you for posting that. My information was a few years old. Yes, indeed things do change.
GE will no doubt respond in some way.
Actually, I just noticed they said "in this important market". I don't know which market they mean: tank cars, or just tank cars in Mexico. The count they say, 2,700 tank cars, is a little low for tank cars across the U.S. Virtually all tank cars in use in the U.S. are owned be lessors now. UTLX/UTCX is still the big name (Union Tank Car Leasing). I don't see a fleet list at UTLX's site, so I have no idea how many they have...
TTX is still the de-facto monopoly in flatcars and well cars used for intermodal services, as well as some autorack cars. Lots of players had been getting into the trailer leasing market and I have no idea who's dominant there. FURX has more locomotives with CSX than any other companies, but this sort of statistic is misleading, for example, LMSX is owned by GE. But GE has other leasing arms, and GE Capital might be doing business by lending money to a lessor to purchase equipment who in turn leases it to others. So if you add them all up, it might still surpass FURX, but not as "one company", as it were.
AEM7
Very true.
I know TTX has a lot of flat cars for container and piggy-back trailer hauling.
Who owns RailBox ("Next Load...Any Road")?
TTX Does
Thank you.
Who owns RailBox ("Next Load...Any Road")?
I think that TTX is jointly owned by all the class-I's, although I am not sure in what percentage. It is more of a pooling scheme than a leasing scheme, but TTX was set up to be independent so there's supposedly no favouritism (and also because PRR was forced to divest it, since STB found it anti-competitive to have railroads owning truck-trailer equipment).
RBOX is a similar scheme set up for boxcars, but it was less successful. Again, I don't know who owns it, but it's jointly owned by the participating roads. Whether this is through TTX ownership, or as a different fractional ownership arrangement, I have no clue.
AEM7
Guilty as charged, sir. And thank you for the diplomatic use of the word "jaundiced," my true feelings about Neutron Jack more approach RAGE, just like nearly everyone else in the "capital district." You see, there's a bit of a story about Neutron Jack that many may not be aware of (though his arrest record *IS* out there) ... one early morning, Neutron Jack, when he was at the Steam Turbine plant, got arrested DWI with a beaten up hooker in his car at the time he was stopped by Schenectady city police back in the 70's (I think).
He swung at one of the cops, and they administered the business end of a stick in response. Ever since that event, Unca Jack was HELL BENT on destroying Schenectady for this and once he rose up the corporate ladder, went out of his way to do so. He polluted our land, our water, dumped nuclear waste all over the countryside and basically thumbed his nose at the residents of our fair counties. He decimated the workforce and then evaded taxes, sticking us with all the bills (this resulted eventually in the PCB thing on the Hudson).
There's tens of thousands of us up here who would love nothing better than a little quality time with Jack so we can get our fingers around his skeevy neck. If it wasn't for our Senator Joe Bruno, Neutron Jack would be at the top of the list around here, so I'm merely reflecting the sentiment of many here who are Ex-GE (I'm not personally) in what I've said.
By the way, word today is GE is about to ditch the lightbulb division for what it's worth. But I freely admit, I'm biased. I don't care much for crooks.
He swung at one of the cops, and they administered the business end of a stick in response. Ever since that event, Unca Jack was HELL BENT on destroying Schenectady...
Serves the Capitol District right, then. Did those cops have no idea who he is?
I wouldn't go as far as destroying the environment and dumping waste in the rivers, but I would definitely hold a grudge against the region if that were me. But then, I wouldn't be caught DWI either.
Yeah, that's one of the odd things about this area up here. If you break the law, you go down. No special privileges for anyone. Spit ont he sidewalk, you get fined. Stick up someone and you go to jail. No plea bargains, no "deals" ... I guess that's why we don't have much in the way of crime. And gangstas from out of town come in, see what looks like easy pickings and spend 30 years in the clink.
As Padre Mario used to say, "the law is the law" and up here, it's APPLIED. Neutron Jack notwithstanding. We're actually hoping Ken Lay would drop by up here and litter. We'll take care of him. :)
Your story can't be universally known up in the capital district any more. Otherwise, why would a good number of people up there still believe him when he says it's better environmentally to leave the Hudson undredged than to dredge up the PCBs that GE put there (at GE expense, of course)?
I would think that kind of a background, if known, would have destroyed his credibility up there more thoroughly than it seems to have been destroyed.
GE's handed out a lot of "happy money" to bumpkin burgs up the Hudson in exchange for some slack. Also, Jack is gone and the new guy is getting a LITTLE "benefit of the doubt" ... but for anyone willing to research through Schenectady Gazette microfilm in the library, it's all there.
Again, not the whole story. You leave out a lot of what you don't like.
That's OK too, but at least be honest about it.
New York State, after a long legacy of anti-business has gone out of its way to look the other way when businesses do bad things in this state. The fact that New York has gone after GE *so* vociferously indicates that the situation is far deeper than you'd like to admit. Do I *obsess* over GE? Nope, got better things to do. But any claims that GE is some kind of benevolent despot is just completely off the mark. Please take no offense in this - it's not my job to spout PR for GE, so I'll just leave it this way. As far as I'm concerned, they're the scum of the earth. :)
That's how I feel about just about all large capitalist corporations. I recently bought the pay per view of the new version of ROLLERBALL. Amazing how that movie changed from the orginal. The original is in someways coming to pass. I guess the monied corporations would have been uncomfortable with a remake that was true to the original theme: Corporations replacing nations and expoiting everything and everyone for their own greed. This thread on GE shows in many ways just how true that original theme has become!
Well, I'm way over the limit here for off topic so I'll pass on a discussion of this. But I'll say one thing. Anybody who actually KNOWS me knows that I'm no socialist. That said, I cannot understand why our "philosophy" as a nation is that subsidizing people who cannot or will not WORK is bad, but subsidizing corporations that cannot or will not COMPETE is GOOD. We've done away with "welfare as we know it" but have substituted it with CORPORATE welfare in the form of major tax breaks, trade allowances and tariffs and outright cash and pork. Something sure ain't right here. It's as though what you describe has already happened. The citizens be damned, Corporate trusts are the "people" now. I must be missing something.
Eoo bad the cop didn't smash the crud's skull apart, America would be measurably better off.
JOhn ... I take it you're from upstate too? Syracuse? Schenectady? Pittsfield? Selkirk? Fort Edward? Another smoking GE crater? :)
Syracuse
Had a feeling. At least there's still a FEW buildings standing in Schenectady ... for now. To know Neutron Jack is to love him. :)
Syracuse.
Somehow, I doubt it. But you can fantasize all you want.
Warned ya about uttering those two letters in upstate New York. Heh. Fans of GE tend to get filled with enough lead to protect a fast breeder reactor. :)
Remember those tee shirts, 'GE, we bring good things to life?' Some employees got suspended because THEIR tee shirts sported,' GE, we bring good things to life...like death...GE miniguns 4000rpm.'
If I worked for GE, I don't think I'd wear a shirt like that.
And they deserved the suspension.
And their shirts had it wrong. The Minigun's top rate of fire is 6000 rounds/min (100 rounds per second) 7.62mm NATO ammmunition. The Vulcan 20mm achieves a comparable rate of fire; the GAU-8 (I think that's a GE product also) on the A-10 fires 30mm milk-bottle size rounds at 4000-4300 rounds per minute.
That's OK ... I had a buddy who worked down in Connecticut somewhere for GE's "biotech" facility ... he had one, "GE: We bring dead things to life." :)
You see, there's a bit of a story about Neutron Jack that many may not be aware of (though his arrest record *IS* out there) ... one early morning, Neutron Jack, when he was at the Steam Turbine plant, got arrested DWI with a beaten up hooker in his car at the time he was stopped by Schenectady city police back in the 70's (I think).
He swung at one of the cops, and they administered the business end of a stick in response. Ever since that event, Unca Jack was HELL BENT on destroying Schenectady for this and once he rose up the corporate ladder, went out of his way to do so. He polluted our land, our water, dumped nuclear waste all over the countryside and basically thumbed his nose at the residents of our fair counties. He decimated the workforce and then evaded taxes
That bright light you see is my Urban Legend Detector flashing. On the other hand, there is that story about Mayor Hylan and his grudge against the BRT/BMT ...
It's actually QUITE real. Only problem I have with respect to subtalk is that I've seen the newspaper clippings in the hands of other Welch groupies so didn't need to "look it up" myself. Thus I can't hand out a specific date to go research, but rest assured that it's in the Schenectady Gazette archives (police blotter PLUS articles) and is well known among the IUE and IBEW locals around here as well.
"...IUE and IBEW locals around here as well. "
of course you neglect to mention that IUE and IBEW share in responsibility for the loss of jobs in the Schenectady area. Naturally, the unions would never own up to that.
I'm not anti-union, by the way. But Welch-bashing is a convenient way to stay in denial about one's own (and one's brethren's) role in the changes to employment...nobody likes accepting responibility, regardless of one's rank. If anything, Welch at his level, though not clean and pure, did a much better job of that than his predecessors did.
Crud bean counters should have NO real authority in an industrial corporation other that to make sure that the company's fiscal affairs comply with the law. Furthermore I rhink a resident of the capitol region would know more about that evil man than a welch seminar fan. Companies who produce goods of tangibla value SHOULD NOT be allowed to be involved in ant form of financing operations, anyway.
You don't know much about business, do you?
What kind of law do you practice?
This sounds like to me a typical MBA/Industrial Engineer divide. FedEx versus UPS. I am going to stand on the wall on this one -- I send stuff Amtrak Package Express.
AEM7
There's no divide. But anyone who likes to refer to "crud bean counters" obviously has not seen what engineers can accomplish when paired with very competent cost accountants and marketers.
As long as the creative talent is in command.
OK, true. But creative talent can come from anywhere; and a loser can come from anywhere.
Engineers who design a product and marketers who tell the engineer what the market wants and make the customers want to buy the product are important. the proper place for the accountant is to keep score but NOT to run the business.
Assuming we accept that silly and uninformed notion for a moment:
What happens when an engineer also has an MBA, or an accountant also studied chemistry?
Seriously, it really does come down to the individual and his/her experience and track record.
The MBA would negate the engineering degree.
You're an MBA?
AEM7 (not an MBA and not an MBA wannabe)
Yes, I an (Major B--- s--- Artist) 8~>.
So was it two or three engineering/science degrees that the person would need to counteract the negative effects of a J.D. or LL.M.?
Lawyers generally work at giving legal advice to their clients or employers. Engineering education is to be desired for such attorneys but except for law firms, no attorney should be allowed to hold executive title other than Counsel.
>>> no attorney should be allowed to hold executive title other than Counsel. <<<
That seems pretty restrictive. Should the J.D. limit what a person can do? Perhaps you remember Howard Weitzman who successfully defended John DeLorean (I had the great pleasure of watching him cross examine a couple of government witnesses), and was O.J. Simpson's first choice to represent him when he had a run in with the law. He could not represent O.J. Simpson because he was considering an executive job which would have conflicted with the expected trial. He took that job. His résumé includes the following:
"From September 1995 to September 1998, Howard served as Executive Vice-President, Corporate Operations, of Universal Studios (then MCA). He restructured various corporate aspects of the company, as well as oversaw the Theme Parks Division, Human Resources, Studio Operations, Security, Real Estate, New Media, Consumer Products, Corporate Marketing and Sponsorships".
Howard has now returned to the practice of law, but there is no reason to assume he was not qualified for the executive position he held, and no reason he should not have taken the position just because he was a licenced attorney.
Tom
"Lawyers generally work at giving legal advice to their clients or employers. Engineering education is to be desired for such attorneys but except for law firms, no attorney should be allowed to hold executive title other than Counsel. "
Why don't you look up who the current CEO of General Dynamics is, and then then tell us why he was selected to be CEO?
I'm still hopeful you can be enlightened...
It all depends on what hat you're wearing. When I'm wearing my railroader's hat, everybody loves me. When I'm wearing my economist's hat, everyone hates me. You sort of try to wear the right hat at the right time and hope for the best. John J. Blair is right in saying that an accountant shouldn't run the shop, but then neither should an engineer. Both need to be aware of the concerns of the other. In railroads, there is often a conflict between VP Marketing and VP Operations. It's the level-of-service versus costs trade off. It's a constant balancing act.
AEM7
Right - except that, ultimately, one person wears the CEO hat.
I know! It's neither of them. The CEO is the McKinsey consultant.
:0)
I know! It's neither of them. The CEO is the McKinsey consultant.
Well, in Penn-Central, the Chairman of the Board was the bean counter and the CEO was the engineer. Look what happened.
Seriously though, Penn-Central probably could not have survived with Perlman at the helm, it was burning cash way too fast. It could probably have survived with Saunders at the helm, but it would have wound up being a little coal haulier that brought coal from the mines of West Virginia and Pennsylvania to Northeast markets. The whole NYC mainline may have been abandoned.
That may not have been a bad thing. Conrail wanted to do that anyway.
I'm aware I started a controversial post.
AEM7
An interesting thread it's been.
You know who ran Conrail not too long ago: Leo Mullin, who got his start as a McKinsey consultant and ended up, via a stint at Conrail, ultimately running Delta Airlines.
DELTA - Doesn't Even Leave The Airport
The job of management is to keep the engineers and accountants from wrapping their fingers around each other's necks. You should see MY management here doing so. :)
Actually, it's true that there is often a strategic divide between those who think the business is a cash cow versus those who think the business is still in its growth stages. MBAs often like to run the business like a cash cow, whereas industrial engineers often like to make the product better and better.
In the case of GE, MBA's were probably right. There's not much research and development that could be applied to make the light bulb better. George Westinghouse already invented the flourescent light long ago.
If Upstate NY lost GE's business, that really is the upstate's fault. Too high costs. That didn't just happen to GE under Welch. Lots of Northeast industries were shut down in the early 1980s in favor of the Prairie States and the South. Costs costs costs that's all it is. Conrail pulled up from NYS too. I don't blame them.
AEM7
"Actually, it's true that there is often a strategic divide between those who think the business is a cash cow versus those who think the business is still in its growth stages. MBAs often like to run the business like a cash cow, whereas industrial engineers often like to make the product better and better."
It's a fun stereotype to have, but it is not really true.
I don't doubt that Welch had a tangle with the law. It's probably still a matter of public record, unless he was in some sort of program that erased his record after successful completion of probation. Even then, there may well be a newspaper record, as you note.
What's a lot more dubious is the conclusion that Welch's anger led him to pull GE out of the area after spewing pollutants around. I find that hard to accept.
Yeah, been told by old time residents that Jack was not a happy camper, and the personal grudge was directed at former Mayor Frank Duci. Now here, I go a bit blurry as the story was told to me several years ago and I don't recall exactly when or what the details were, but Mayor Duci was (I think) one of the police officers OR the police chief at the time this happened, and Welch had great animosity towards the city of Schenectady, swearing vengeance before his rise to chairman. When this happened, the thrashing of Schenectady began almost immediately.
I just tried to do a search in hopes of turning up something but haven't. But anyone in Schenectady aware of the history would be able to cite chapter and verse on it. It's COMMON knowledge among residents there and GE employees who were around at the time. This was a VERY personal thing by Welch though, that I'm certain of.
I've always been suspicious of them police types. Why would you elect a former police officer/law enforcement as a mayor anyway? Law enforcement is great at what they do, and they're great people, but they are also just people... I keep out of their way, and I hope they keep out of my way...
There are some that would thrash ya for that. Mayor Rudy is a former member of that profession and though he didn't make the trains run on time, some folks really loved his authoritarian ways. :)
"Ever since that event, Unca Jack was HELL BENT on destroying Schenectady for this and once he rose up the corporate ladder, went out of his way to do so. He polluted our land, our water, dumped nuclear waste all over the countryside and basically thumbed his nose at the residents of our fair counties. He decimated the workforce and then evaded taxes, sticking us with all the bills (this resulted eventually in the PCB thing on the Hudson). "
Even you know in your heart that you're spinning fantasies. Welch inherited some of the upstate problems, especially the PCBs, and to this day there is scientific controversy over what is really the best way to deal with PCBs. I think that the EPA plan is reasonable, but I can see GE's objections. The rest of your post is pure crap, frankly, esp. the part about nuclear waste.
I certainly believe Welch could have gotten it on with a prostitute. But he was far too busy to worry about sticking it to anybody except competitors.
I know you feel you need to vent, and that's OK. But you're lying to yourself up there if you can't separate the understandable emotions about the mass layoffs from the facts.
Yeah, I do despise GE personally and there is NOTHING in our house made by GE by design. As to the "nuclear waste" thing, google "Peek Street nuclear" and have a look. True, it preceeded Jack Welch but there were plans to clean it up (same for the Voorheesville depot which was also legacy GE pollution) and Welch stonewalled it. I can understand that you may admire GE, but those of us who are in close to it generally despise General Electric for using us and then packing up and moving to Atlanta. Then again, they're doing the SAME thing to you guys now.
But the whining on this end is about real issues, whether you like them or not.
"Yeah, I do despise GE personally and there is NOTHING in our house made by GE by design. As to the "nuclear waste" thing, google "Peek Street nuclear" and have a look."
Google responds:
Your search - "peek street nuclear" - did not match any documents.
Strange, just passed it again. Try this:
http://www.google.com/search?q=peek+street+nuclear
I took a look at it.
Peek Street was a Navy project. It was handled no worse and no better than any other government project of its type at the time. That's not to say that there should be no clean-up, but frankly, GE is right about not wanting to shoulder all the blame. The government is as much to blame here as the contractors. Welch's reaction is reasonable.
"Yeah, I do despise GE personally and there is NOTHING in our house made by GE by design."
You mean like some Jews who to this day wuld not buy a Volkswagen? It's your choice, of course...
"I can understand that you may admire GE, but those of us who are in close to it generally despise General Electric for using us and then packing up and moving to Atlanta"
OK. I can see your being sore over that. I would be too. But it happens.
"Then again, they're doing the SAME thing to you guys now. "
Southwest Philly is losing the last 200 jobs in the plant which makes controls for power turbines. The plant employed 7,000 people in 1969. It's a huge loss over three decades, agreed. But next to the shutdown now in progress at the Budd Company (6,000 jobs to be lost), it's just a speck.
True and just between you and me personally, no hard feelings. But "GE" is a pair of letters that'll get your mouth washed out with soap around THESE here parts. :)
I never worked for them myself, but know plenty of people who did and while those that STILL do insist upon revising history (and quietly they admit that it's out of fear of losing their jobs - GE frowns on their own badmouthing the company) they generally don't try to convince us that the long records of GE history are incorrect.
Once again, hope we can still be friends despite my attitude. But we've all learned around here that the laissez fairy doesn't always dispense candy and treats. :)
Selkirk,
Debates on Subtalk are a game. They stay on Subtalk. I never let Subtalk interfere with friendships. Off-line, the boxing gloves get put away. :0)
Ron
Cool! There's some I don't mind cheesing off, you're NOT one of them. :)
Feeling's mutual.
Now watch ... somebody's gonna tell us to get a room. :)
Get a suite.
I'll send the bill. :)
I can understand that you may admire GE, but those of us who are in close to it generally despise General Electric for using us and then packing up and moving to Atlanta
Well maybe if Upstate's costs of doing business weren't so much higher than Atlanta's, GE wouldn't have left.
Ah, but now Atlanta's are much higher than Bangla Desh. Now what?
In a 1998 interview on CNN's Moneyline Jack Welch said: "Ideally, you'd have
every plant you owned on a barge, to move with currencies and changes in the
economy". Mr.Welch was expounding on his policy of moving GE jobs out of the
USA. And his pressuring of GE suppliers to do the same. The results of Welch's
policies can be seen in the upstate New York city of Schenectady - once upon a
time GE's bustling home town. Schenectady now struggles to survive, with parts
that look like a ghost town. A hard core underclass is replacing a population of
skilled workers. When pushing overseas job shipments Welch urged GE suppliers
to
"SQUEEZE THE LEMON!".
Can someone explain why the costs in the Northeast are so high?
I can think of a few reasons:
(1) NE is crowded, land is scarce, so factory floor can be cheaper out west.
(2) NE is crowded, food needs shipped in, food price is high so worker wages need to be high. food is cheaper out west therefore wages are cheaper out west.
But if you make stuff out west, you have to ship it to NE to sell it. It's usually cheaper to ship light bulbs than to ship the food needed to feed thousands of light bulb workers, so it makes to make stuff out west.
Now think. Do any of these arguments apply to Bangladash or other third world countries? Many 3rd world countries are buying grain from us. Grain needs to go all the way from the Prairies to the NE ports then onto a ship and then to India. There, they can be used to feed the workers and these workers will produced light bulbs which is shipped back to the NE to be sold.
Makes sense in the short run, while people in India or China are paid crappy wages and live in poverty. This won't last -- they'll start demanding higher wages soon enough, and all the manufacturing will shift back to Georgia and Michigan.
AEM7
Look at what happened when Chinese, Korean Phillipino and Thai industries began to undercut Japanese manufacturers.
Is a widget a real thing, or just something used figureativaly?
Widget(TM) is a device produced by a British firm that keeps canned beer foamy. It is filled with Nitrogen at slightly above atmospheric pressure, so that when you open the can, the gas is released and the beer is foamy, even after you transfer it from a can to a glass.
GE does not make any Widgets(TM).
Although GE makes other things, which are collectively referred to as widgets. In years past, we would have said "general merchandize" or "manufactured goods", or if you're a real old fashioned, "faks" -- Freight of All Kinds.
AEM7
Ahhh, the thing behind the Heineken keg can. Thanks for the info!
Or "good and service" to quote the Shrub. :)
"I've sat in on Neutron Jack's seminars. Your UNDERLINGS need to pop out widgets on command. When you manage them all you've got to do is count 'em. I've actually heard him say this. :) "
That was never his whole message. You're taking it out of context.
Jack was a meaty sumbitch, that's true. But what I gathered was that his whole thing is that managers should never be too specialized, and that it was the numbers and performance of those numbers that decided whether you grow in the company or fall by the wayside. I remember Jack when he ran Schenectady. He had no friends here.
"it was the numbers and performance of those numbers that decided whether you grow in the company or fall by the wayside"
in other words, a thorough understanding of statistics and business metrics. That's appropriate for a manager.
"I remember Jack when he ran Schenectady. He had no friends here."
Some workers blamed him for solving a problem that would have devoured them eventually anyway. He ended the torture sooner. Regardless, there's a bit of hyperbole in your post.
Too through an education in those black arts should limit a manager's career.
Your post makes no sense.
That's a good idea, but for two years?
Would two years of your life be too much to ask in return for a license to print money?
That's what a well-run McDonald's franchise is.
It's that lucrative? * drooling*
Nah, everybody starts out in the executive suite. At least on planet NASDAQ. :)
I was in rail management for one year, and got my time in on the "factory floor" only for two weeks. I still don't know what it is like to do it day in and day out. One day I plan to find out. The rest of the railroaders would probably think of me as that wuss brakeman who can't even throw a switch, but that kind of thing reminds you who you're dealing with, and why you need them, when you are doing labor contract talks.
Railroaders are not "just help", like Tuch says. But then, management isn't just there to screw the workers over either, like some BLE people would claim.
AEM7
Well said. I like your attitude.
Hell no ... screwing people over is BLE's job. :)
yea they should go out in the field and learn their railroad! this idiot supervisor told me Metro North trains only do 80! now how is that possible? not only have engineers told me they can hit 95, but the RULEBOOK SAYS IT TOO!!!! idiots!
95! Whoa I'd love to be on a train doing that kind of speed. I usually only take the local. Where do they attain 95 MPH??
Actually, last night, I was talking about cheap immigrant labor as a real potential problem for society. And it is.
Its not a problem, it's one of the best labour inventions of all time. It allows full employment with very low inflation. Its the reason the 90's were so sucessful.
We now have a generation of U.S. citizens with college degrees who are unwilling to do some of the jobs that the immigrants do at the wages that are being paid.
Having someone w/ a college degree clean toilets is a waste of resources. Education is an investment and people don't get educated just to take jobs that don't require it in the first place. Being tied to a subsistance level job would require one to move into cheap slum style housing and probably give up trying to find a better job. They would be locked into a job and life that they are not suited for and purposely invested capital $ to avoid.
What about paying them better?
This is not a solution. When you pay workers more the cost of living for everyone rises to reflect these added costs. Therefore everyone's buying power drops to negate any pay raise they recieved. When you hire workers who will work for table scraps whose who are in control of the capital resources can have their cake and eat it too. The only problem (seen time and time again in this country) is that the poor workers save up $ and succesive generations become more and more educated and start wanting better jobs and better pay. They then have to find a new source of cheap labour. The trick is to eliminate this effect so that the party never ends.
Then you look at the unemployment roll and you see a bunch of U.S. college graduates complaining about immigrants taking all their work.
No you don't. They complain about the job market, but when asked about all the help wanted signs for crappy jobs downtown they always hemm and haww and backpedal. College grads and illegal immigrants do not and more importantly SOULD not compete in the same job market.
LOL, you're more capitalist than I am. That is a hard title to earn. I take my hat off to you.
AEM7
Better than that. He's right. (Ye Gods! Am I actually agreeing with someone THAT capitalistic?)
Actually, reading more of the thread, you're right too, AEM7 - fewer graduates are needed.
Quite how either approach is going to go down with the voters is another matter - phrased differently (as ß@$t@rd lefty politicians would portray your messages), it could be:
- your kids shouldn't go to college
- there should be more competition for your job
If only it were possible to get people to vote for something sensible.
"The voters have spoken. The ß@$t@rd$." - Nixon
Its not a problem, it's one of the best labour inventions of all time.
Actually, that is an illusion. What is needed is not a way to source new cheap labor. What is needed is a way to keep the number of college graduates down.
America has been prosperous for a number of years, basically since the end of WWII, the U.S. had seen relative good times. What had been happening in recent years is that because the working class have saved up enough money to suddenly send their kids to college, plus the fact that some people spotted that setting up a college is a good way to make money, with the result that everyone ends up having college degrees. This meant that there was an imbalance between vocational workers and college grads.
Some of the effects are good. For instance, years ago a carpenter learned his trade through an apprenticeship. Today, he may do so at a college. But, overall, there are still far too many people studing such non-vocational subjects as media studies, biology, sociology, and history.
The resulting labor shortage (since non-vocational grads refuse to work low-paid jobs) meant that foregin labor had to be employed to fill the bottom of the barrel. This leaves too many grads chasing too few management or academic jobs.
Having someone w/ a college degree clean toilets is a waste of resources.
That person shouldn't have gone to college in the first place, if his college degree does not allow him to get a job better than a toilet cleaner.
...life that they are not suited for and purposely invested capital $ to avoid.
That capital could have been better invested elsewhere.
When you pay workers more the cost of living for everyone rises to reflect these added costs.
Actually, when you pay the restaurant workers etc better, there would no longer be a shortage of them since not as many people would be going to college to try to avoid that kind of jobs. Colleges that don't deserve to exist would then cease to exist (I can think of a few here in Boston) and less capital would be wasted in training people to a degree of education that they won't ever use. Ultimately, it is up to the individual, but if the job market at the lower end became more attractive, unless people are really dedicated, they wouldn't bother going to college. And I maintain that college should only be for those who are really dedicated. College is not a cheap ticket to a secure job.
College grads and illegal immigrants do not and more importantly SHOULD not compete in the same job market.
Wait until you see some of the "college grads" out here in Boston.
AEM7
But we can expand the college educated proportion by eliminating the need for lo-skilled jobs through technology and automation. Instead of having a manager controling 10 or so grunts, you can have 2-3 managers, 2 grunts and a bunch of machines that the managers can operate, troubleshoot and repair.
After you change the needed proportion, the rest is a question of population control, but more educated people naturally have fewer kids so its self-correcting.
One example step would be to eliminate the need for long-distance truck drivers via a nation-wide interlocal rail system.
...But we can expand the college educated proportion by eliminating the need for lo-skilled jobs through technology and automation.
But you will never replace the barmaids, the waiteresses, the flight attendents, etc. The other issue is that automation requires capital investment. The degree of automation is dictated by the availability of capital versus the cost of labor. That is the reason that a lot of farming is done manually in China, but is done by a John Deere in the U.S. You've just reversed your argument from "cheap labor is good" to "automation is good, cheap labor is bad", all in the space of two posts.
...but more educated people naturally have fewer kids so its self-correcting.
I fully intend to have five kids.
AEM7
Yes, you cannot automate all jobs, but you can reduce the number of unskilled labourers that are needed. You said that the ration of college grads is too high. I said that you can justify such a high ratio by reducing the need for unskilled jobs.
In the ideal case, unskilled jobs will totally filled by teenagers, retirees, the physically and mentally disabled, board stay at home moms, minimalist hippies, etc. IE, the people who willingly CHOOSE such jobs instead of have those jobs forced upon them. The population segments I just mentioned have more than enough people to fill in for what jobs automation cannot eliminate.
I fully intend to have five kids.
Probably with 5 different GF's in 5 different states.
I fully intend to have five kids.
Probably with 5 different GF's in 5 different states.
OI!!!!!
America has been prosperous for a number of years, basically since the end of WWII, the U.S. had seen relative good times. What had been happening in recent years is that because the working class have saved up enough money to suddenly send their kids to college, plus the fact that some people spotted that setting up a college is a good way to make money, with the result that everyone ends up having college degrees. This meant that there was an imbalance between vocational workers and college grads.
Federally subsidized student loans also have contributed to the oversupply of college graduates. On the other hand, it's not as if this oversupply has been disastrous. Anecdotes about burger-flipping Ph.D.'s aside, the fact remains that the U.S. economy has been doing very well for many years, as you noted.
Many PhD's flip burgers out of choice. When people become overeducated, they can tend to go a little bonkers and devolop all sorts of minimalist ideas. Many PhD's enjoy jobs that do not require mental effort so they can live up in their heads and like compose poerty, write novels or hash out grand unifacation theories while their bodies do the job on automatic pilot. I know several such people here at Wesleyan.
Many PhD's flip burgers out of choice. When people become overeducated, they can tend to go a little bonkers and devolop all sorts of minimalist ideas. Many PhD's enjoy jobs that do not require mental effort so they can live up in their heads and like compose poerty, write novels or hash out grand unifacation theories while their bodies do the job on automatic pilot. I know several such people here at Wesleyan.
Sone Ph.D.'s might be happy flipping burgers, but it's my suspicion that most aren't, and those that do seem to enjoy that sort of work don't do so for very long. Wesleyan is a bit, er, offbeat, so I don't believe you can extrapolate from what you might see there.
I've always been a believer that a WELL ROUNDED education should include two gigs minimum as a lesson in world reality. I've always advised people that before they settle into their career, they should spend a little time flipping burgers (for me it was the GOODY'S chain, a part of "Burger King System") and driving a cab (for me, NYCTA - not QUITE driving a cab, but close) ... grants some humility and exposure to Murphy's law ... highly recommended for as long as you can stand.
What happened?
How didn't you qualify?
Since I can't seem to hold a thread like the trolls do, perhaps it would be beneficial if I asked everyone on SubTalk: What do you like? What car classes do you like? Do I need help? What subway lines do you like? What's your favorite baseball team? Do you like the 6 train?
The bottom line is : What do you like?
All thoughts and thread hijackings welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What do you like? Cookies
What car classes do you like? Um, the R62 and the R142 and the Redbirds and the R40 and the R38 and the others too but I've never seen an R143 in person. The redbirds used to be my favorite but since they're going anyway and I am so sick and tired of hearing all that crap like oh no I'mm gonna die cuz my favorite subway car is leaving!! noooooooo!! what will I dooooooo? What am I gonna doooooo?!? Noooooooo!!OOOOOOOO!!ooo!!!!!
Do I need help? Yes.
What subway lines do you like? All of them but in particular the Rockaway line and the IRT Broadway lines and some others and also I haven't rode them all yet so I don't know.
What's your favorite baseball team? I don't like baseball cuz it's boring and crappy.
Do you like the 6 train? Yes
Didn't want to apply. But it seems you've made a new handle. You couldn't have requested a change otherwise you would've been checked for the crap and grabage you've been posting. So you kinda violated one of the password rules. Maybe it's time you make a few "good" and "useful" posts before you hang out on www.straphangers.org long term.
Hey, I'm trying to stimulate conversation.
Weekends, AMELIE, Krispy Kremes & Rye Playland.
Thank god I live in a brick house.
But what if you're living in the Rabbit in Red version of the story. "Book, shmook, just blow!"
And he did...
What's your favorite diamond/rush hour train line?
Examples like diamond 4(on r-62a), 5, 6, 7, B, D (if diamond exists), M, and Q?
Other lines 9, Z(skip stop)
My vote goes to the 6 Express! Why do the expresses go so slow when going on the middle track through a local station?
The 9.
The diamond Q and the 7 express.
Nyc's Outreach program has elected 86st on the 1,2 line as their new home.Due to new budget cuts Instead of traveling to the Homeless,they are hoping the Homeless will travel to them.So starting Septemner 9 all the cities homeless will recieve food .clothes and other assistance on the Platform.Sounds like a good Idea to me I have put in to volunteer because winter is coming so they will need the help.
Uh-oh. I better get ready to open and close fast. Thank god its only for two more weeks...........
This can only be the product of a devious mind.
It should prove to be a real test for the Limousine Liberal crowd in that neighborhood. I'm willing to put down a few bucks that says it never happens.
CG
Only a few bucks? I'd bet a hell of a lot more than that... ;)
And MTA is actually going along with this?
Huh? Why pick a station that has over 5 million boarding passengers per year?
IDK if this was mentioned or not but R142A on the 4 line stalled in the Joralemon tubes yesterday afternoon. There is a stor about it in the Wednesday Daily News.
I've been out of NYC for a few weeks, when did they start using R142A's on the 4, and how many trainsets are assigned to the 4 right now?
They started about 4-5 weeks ago.Its only 2 sets.
visit the amtrak modeling website at
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250.html
thanks
They started about 4-5 weeks ago.Its only 2 sets.
visit the amtrak modeling website at
www.geocities.com/acelaexpress6250/index.html
It was around 2 o clock. People at Atlantic told to take the N, R, into Manhattan to get the 4, 5 or the M to Brooklyn Bridge where they were as well.
Well, it's not that surprising to me. I mean, did anyone honestly think the products Kawasaki make is impervious to trouble.
For the post's I've seen here, I would say that more than a few did think Kawasaki could do no wrong!
Agreed.
There have been a fair share of problems with the r142A on the 6 too.Brake downs modifications
Of course there are going to be problems here and there, Kawasaki is no exception. It's a matter of which cars have been more reliable overall, and Kawasaki beats Bombardier as far as I'm concerned. However, for the most part, both the R142 and R142A are running well. It's the first big order of subway cars in 14 years, and the first for the IRT in 19 years; things haven't gone that bad. -Nick
I heard it was a busted brake pipe. They tried to tow it first to brooklyn, no joy, then to manhattan, no luck. They pulled another train up for customers to transfer to by walking both trains to Bowling Green.
I guess they then cut out all brakes and stuck Diesel's on both ends... Just a guess.
Maybe we call one of the Japanese guys up at Yonkers.
"I heard it was a busted brake pipe."
Actually, it's called a brake pipe rupture.
"They tried to tow it first to brooklyn, no joy, then to manhattan, no luck."
Another train was added but the traction inverters dropped out.
They pulled another train up for customers to transfer to by walking both trains to Bowling Green.
They used a rescue train to remove all customers from the train
"I guess they then cut out all brakes and stuck Diesel's on both ends... Just a guess."
No diesel was used - reset the inverters and moved the consist...
Incidently, LIRR train #2021 was evacuated this morning with 6 cars of 12 in the station at Central Islip due to a brakepipe rupture. Now the M-1s are 30+ years old so one can assume that a brakepipe rupture is not unique to any particular car class.
Why couldn't they reset the inverters in the tunnel?
What are inverters?
"Why couldn't they reset the inverters in the tunnel?"
Since I have not worked on the R-142 or R-143, I think the answer to this question should be answered by Peter or someone who has the expertise. My understanding was that the inverters (1 per truck) were reset on scene.
"What are inverters?"
Inverters are devices that take the 600 volts DC from the 3rd rail and converts it to AC for whatever purpose it's designed for. In this case, it's used for propulsion power. However, virtually every NYCT revenue car uses inverters in one form or another. Almost all use inverters for lighting. Many use inverters for AC blower motors and soem even use inverters for AC Compressor motors.
Thanks for the info Train Dude! You wouldn't happen to know why some flourscent tubes are producing a dark yellow \ light brown light on some R142A cars on the 6 line. There are on average 2 to 3 brown lights in a given car.
It's the tubes. They used those colors instead of white.
Why?
They used to use yellowish/pinkish tinted fluourescents in meat cases in supermarkets and delicatessens to make the meat look a bit more fresh. This of course in violation of NYC Consumer Protection Law, so the bulbs were removed from the MTA cafeteria and exchanged with more bluish lamps in the 142's. :)
Are you serious? Or is it that these bulbs are half dead?
He's half serious... or maybe he's totally serious... the first sentence and the first half of the second he's serious, while in the second half of the second sentence he's seriously nuts :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Fully teasing, though fluourescent lamps of that color were once actually used in supermarkets and deli display cases for the purpose of making meat look fresher and WERE banned by Consumer Affairs a LONG time ago.
I don't know why they're that color in the trains though.
Ok, That's an interesting part of piece of history. Thanks for the input!
Moo! :)
They used to use yellowish/pinkish tinted fluourescents in meat cases in supermarkets and delicatessens to make the meat look a bit more fresh. This of course in violation of NYC Consumer Protection Law, so the bulbs were removed from the MTA cafeteria and exchanged with more bluish lamps in the 142's. :)
Now what about those purple lamps over the end doors of the R-11s? ;)
Guard lights, and the purple glow indicated that the smoking lamp was lit for crew. :)
Nooo... I mean the flourescents over the end doors, that cured colds
Heh. Probably to disinfect the foamer glass. :)
Ah yes, the infamous Precipitrons. They supposedly killed germs by using UV light. Not only did they sterilize the air, but anyone else who got too close to them!
The 'purple' lights were ultra-violet lights (like black-lights) that were part of the precipitrons . They were removed when it was found that the ultra-violet light could have adverse health effects.
It was thought these lights made the crews sterile!
I'd say that being made sterile might come under the catagory of an adverse health effect.
Unless you DIDN'T want to reproduce. :)
Nothing like UHF TV transmitters, microwave transmitters and FM stations to nuke the old 'nads. Ain't no paternity suits resting on MY butt, and I got me PLENTY. Heh.
Well Kevin, that may have been a hidden blessing. Just look at the faces of the 'lucky' parents over at K Mart or Target this weekend. Spending a small fortune on cloths, book-bags and a brand new lunchbox. Ah, if I only knew then .................
Hahahaha ... well, birth control was a major issue to many wimmens. I was a "safe date" until things got gnarly bacteria-wise. :)
And at 51, still don't need no blue pills. I can still charge up the brake pipe, whistles and all. Moo. Heh.
Plenty of BUTT, no wonder you did not reproduce. You only get lawyers that way.
If those lights made crews sterile, a lot less child support to be paid by them and a lot less money needed to pay for NYCT/TWU health benefits!
I know... just making an off-"color" remark :)
I'm sitting here laughing. Kawasaki trainsets utilize many parts common with the BBD trainsets...critical parts include couplers/linkbars, brakes, third rail contact shoe assemblies ('current collectors') and tripcocks. What was to be inevitable is.
"You need Japanese assistance to maky train go...I spreak verry rittle Engrish but I fixy you train chop-chop." Well, Kawasaki has a much better reputation than that sending out engineers to correct problems. BBD is a laugh...we get the 'big hitter' Canadian Frenchies
running about with the REAL accents. "Pardon moi Monseuir...I am heer to feex your doors...wood you like a Labatts feefty or a Galouis." Love this work...vacation for a week has me wondering what's going on. CI Peter
Goodness, that was a mouthful! -Nick
WNBC TV Shadow Traffic says no PATH from Harrison to Journal Square due to "equipment problems". Shuttle bus from Harrison to Journal Square and shuttle trainf rom Harrison to Newark.Now guesswork- since the service is out it must be wheer the two tracks are side by aide and some condition involving both tyracks or else they could single track. Was there a derailment or track obstruction and I doubt that or it would not be equipment problems. Eric B- any info?
There was a derailment in the Harrison area.
No further details were available but PATH trains were operating on a 15 minute headway to/from Journal Sq and JSQ to Hoboken service was suspended until about 7:30 AM.
I also heard that trains from Newark were operating from the H (Newark bound ) platform rather than from the platfrom adjoining track 2 at Newark Penn.
This started at around 1:00am this morning. I was heard it while I was driving home from work. The reported keeped saying PATH was supened from Jornal Sq to Newark Airport. I did not know that PATH want to the Airport.
Robert
It doesn't.
Apparently whoever wrote the copy for broadcast either mistakenly put airport in after Newark or the newscasters did it automatically without realizing it.
I heard this on WCBS NewsRadio88 (go after them Todd) and also on WB11 morning news. I am sure they don't have the same people doing the writing for them.
>>>I am sure they don't have the same people doing the writing for them. <<
They probably both used the same AP story.
Peace,
ANDEE
I know it donen't go to the airport. It was ment to be a joke. I just wanted to clear this up.
Robert
I passed by this past weekend on a southbound (N). I noticed on the southbound platform an opening in the wall what looked like a temporary corridor. Also some sort of plywood walled area that wsn't there since the station closed on 9/11.
Could this be some sort of temporary street entrance for the southbound side ? There was also some hardhat workers on the platform. Check this out and you'll see what I mean.
Bill "Newkirk"
There will have to be some way out of the platform if the station is indeed to open on Sept.15. What you saw may be the answer.
"There will have to be some way out of the platform if the station is indeed to open on Sept.15. What you saw may be the answer."
There is an underpass, but maybe that's not considered enough. Also, somewhere I did read that they were planning an entrance on the west side of Church St. That would explain why they've kept the station closed for all these many months that it's been ready to open.
I was on Church St. this weekend at the WTC site and noticed that the stairs leading down were also ready. They would need to move the construction wall to allow access.
Those stairs, from what I was told, were there but had been covered over in the 1970s. That was before my time, but presuumably it was when the new concourse into the WTC was opened.
Cortlandt St. is supposed to reopen with N & W swap on September 8.
Regards,
George Chiasson Jr.
(Widecab5@aol.com)
"Those stairs, from what I was told, were there but had been covered over in the 1970s."
That explains why they are on my 1990s vintage Hagstrom Atlas map of lower Manhattan. Hagstrom forgot to remove them.
I apologize if this has been posted already, but:
On the R142A, the interior sign seems to flash the time, the next stop, and the destination faster than the R142.
Very True!
And on the R142 the sign is has a reder color
The 142 &142A actually display the messages for approximately the same amount of time, but the display on the 142 has a long pause between pieces of information whereas the 142A switches between items on the display instantly. The outside signs are the same way, having a long, blank pause between displays.
IMHO, this makes the 142 display much more difficult to use, for while a glance at a 142A sign will give you a good amount of information, a 142 sign will more than likely be blank. It's very annoying. I'm not sure if this is because of Bombardier using cheaper LCDs that can't recieve the next message while displaying the current one or if it has something to do with the differences between the two trains' computer systems, maybe someone else has more information.
That is all.
Maybe it's the software put in...maybe the software was programmed to put the pauses between the announcements...
Cleanairbus
Well, in contrast, I like how Bombardier's LCD is longer since it easier to look at. For Kawsaki, it's quick, though you may miss something. Just my 2 cents.
I was onboard a consist of R-42's at approx. 9:00 pm. Train was pulling out of Bushwick-Arberdeen when the C/R saw a youth running along side the train and then leap between cars! He immediately pulled the emergency cord and ordered the T/O to hold for an investigation.
The C/R did a complete Walk-around and platform inspection of the last four cars (more than enough distance that was covered at the time of the incident). No one was found on the roadbed, thanfully.
The outcome: a passenger informed us that a youth -- whom I saw walking forward through cars as the C/R went to investigate -- had been seen between some rear cars. Apparently he was the imbecile the C/R saw that somehow defied death and was able to land on the end-gates as the train was leaving the station.
The train proceed after about a 15 minute delay. We bypassed all stops till Mrytle Ave.
Could've been a nasty evening for our resident 'Transit Professional' Mark W.
Really? I have no idea why people even do these things...
Kid's will be kids, and the parerent will sue the TA for all they could get from it.
Robert
Robert(North-Eastern T/O), which line do you T/O on?
I am on the G and the V right now. As of 9/8/02 I will be on the L four days and the J one day. So to hear about all the 12-9 and possable 12-9 on the L makes me more on the look out for this on the L. Why do you ask?
Robert
Because i'm a psychotic stalker who follows you around and takes pictures. Seriously, I thought that you might work on the 6 line since it runs through the north-eastern part of the city.
I took my new handle since I pick onto the L. The L was part of the Eastern division along with the J & M, but it now they are all in the North with the A/C. So I merge the two togerther. MY old handle was Robert(B Divisions T/O)
Robert
As for taking pictures of me, you can do better Trust Me, I not that bad looking but just heavy. Hope to see you out there on the L, I there Thuseday though Sunday in th PM's. I were most of the time the line pins that are sold at the T/M Store. I alway have the line I am on that day + at lease 1 more.
Robert
Interesting article (slightly off-topic) in today's NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/29/business/29FLY.html
Probably for marginal cases. If I know that missing the plane because of disastrous traffic will totally void my non-refundable ticket (as US Air is now doing), I will give myself yet another half hour to get to the airport. That makes the train that much more attractive.
But still, for distances like NY to Chicago, I'd just spend the extra half hour to take the plane, not the extra 10 hours (more or less) for the train.
USAirways is probably just going to lose even more business. It has a near-monopoly on some routes in the northeast, but in most cases it has to deal with competition like any other business. Amtrak may pick up a few passengers here and there, but in most cases the beneficiaries are going to be the discounters like Southwest and JetBlue, as the article noted.
Not true. JetBlue and Southwest will find that its costs start looking expensive, compared to perhaps not U.S. Air but maybe Northwest.
JetBlue already has a "we don't overbook" policy. That, combined with a ticket that could go standby if the person misses the flight, is disasterous. What would be the incentive to turn up for your flight on-time?
The airline compared the new standby rule to what happens when someone misses a Broadway show or sports event: no refund or credit, period.
From an airline management perspective, that is very attractive and is the way it should have always been. If Southwest doesn't copy this move and the majors all pull it off, then it's Southwest that would be bleeding dry.
AEM7
"JetBlue already has a "we don't overbook" policy. That, combined with a ticket that could go standby if the person misses the flight, is disasterous. What would be the incentive to turn up for your flight on-time?"
Missing your flight, even if airline policy is generous, is still inconvenient and can cause you problems, for example if you were expected at a meeting at your destination. If the airline is strict about refusing to let you on the plane after the "departure door is closing" time, you would still want to show up on time. Of course, to "shuttle" destinations like from LGA to PHL or BOS or anytime the airline flies hourly, the impact is less. But from Philadelphia to Kansas City or St. Louis, if the next available flight is in 7 hours or not till tomorrow, well...
The only way Southwest or JetBlue end up at the higher end of the cost scale is if the airlines are successful in busting their unions and also using bankruptcy to settle their debts and long term obligations at fractions of dollars.
Some of the changes make sense, but others don't make any sense at all. Not allowing people to fly standby on an earlier flight is ridiculous.
The low fare guys don't gain much immediately from the demise of US Air, as neither JetBlue or Southwest really had any competition from US Air. US was a primarily northeastern airline and only competed with JetBlue for Florida traffic (US had already lost that battle).
Southwest only ran into US Air at BWI and their routes were for the most part very different. Southwest stands to benefit the most, as it seems inconceivable that US maintains their hubs at both Philly and Pittsburgh. I'm sure Southwest would love to get their hands on some gates and slots at Philly.
The "no refund" or massive step-up won't have much of an impact on the low fare guys, as the difference in price between a non-refundable ticket and a full fare ticket is often less than $100.
CG
I've never been a fan of US Airways to begin with, but now that this policy has been brought to light, I'd avoid booking with them at all costs.
Is that an R44/R46 coupled with an R1? I'm curious as to why they would have done that? Surely they never had any intention of running those cars together in service...
Where and when were these photos taken?
I found the pictures here. They are the two middle pictures at the bottom.
And the captions tell a lot of the story. They were found that way on the LIRR, Shea Stadium station. No doubt they were there to test, or maybe even just to lay up before or after testing.
:-) Andrew
I am guessing either one of two reasons:
It's some kind of special that allowed subway cars to run on LIRR trackage. Because they were not FRA compliant, the first car is not allowed to carry revenue passengers. So they assigned a work car with only the operating staff on board.
Or perhaps the first car is specially fitted for some kind of cab signal reception apparatus, for running on the LIRR.
Doesn't this look like a sport event special, if it were running to Shea Stadium?
AEM7
>>It's some kind of special that allowed subway cars to run on LIRR trackage. Because they were not FRA compliant, the first car is not allowed to carry revenue passengers. So they assigned a work car with only the operating staff on board.<<
Nope, the R-1/9 car is called the "crash car". It always sits between the new rolling stock and the diesel. The diesel never pulls the new cars direct. Sometimes, they use a gondola as a "crash car".
>>Or perhaps the first car is specially fitted for some kind of cab signal reception apparatus, for running on the LIRR.<<
Not really. The R-44's themselves, didn't have any special cab signals for operating on the LIRR. When they tested them on the line between Forest Hills and Woodside, LIRR personnel as well as TA people were on board. A (LIRR) motor instructor may have been in the mix too, in radio contact with the railroad when operating on the test track. Of course, the test track is closed to other traffic.
>>Doesn't this look like a sport event special, if it were running to Shea Stadium?<<
The LIRR Shea Stadium station has a storage facility underneath the pedestrian overpass for Flushing Meadows where the R-44's slept overnight. The Metro North M-3A's were also tested on the LIRR and stored at that facility. The R-44's may not have operated on their own power down the Port Wash and could have been pulled by a LIRR diesel to Woodside for testing which would explain why the R1-9 "crash car" at Shea Stadium. I'm not sure of this, just a guess.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, Bill. Thanks for the info.
I also believe that JJ Earl -- a fellow Branford member and former LIRR freight Conductor -- was involved with the R-44 testing on LIRR. He told me a story of getting some handle time on the R-9 over by Jamaica. He couldn't keep the train in full throttle since he thought the 750 volts of LIRR power would 'fry' the 600 volt motors of the NYCTA equipment.
My recollection is hazy, but back then the LIRR had a couple of Arnines (might have been four of them) that either remained ON the property or were available from somewhere for snow duty and my recollection is that something was modified in those cars (they got M-50# numbers) that made them "happy" with 750 though sluggish on NYCTA property when they visited "home." They were modified specifically FOR LIRR duty and reportedly rescued many of the original M-1's when snow killed them and made them lay down on the railroad. Just ONE of the "hopped up Arnines" could pull a full rush hour consist of M-1's wherever they needed to go.
Someone else mentioned four motors, didn't know that, but I do know that some of them we modified for LIRR duty, but that's about ALL I know about them.
By the way, mentioned in another thread images of the Arnines like being a team of horses as far as "having control of your train." Those Arnines were supposedly CLYDESDALES of the "fleet." Never saw one "live." There, another 20 tangents. :)
I recall someone claiming that, back in the early 1970's LIRR was running 660 volts on the third rail. True or False?
Got me ... I went the other way. The Bronx was 610 or so and whatever they did out in the "land of neighbors drinking each other's cesspools and wondering why everybody had cancer" really didn't matter to me much. But sounds plausible. All I know is the Arnines that were assigned there were VERY special cars. Not just the MCB cobbage, but a number of other things in those cars were supposedly QUITE special.
Correct, this is my understanding too.
LIRR *was* 600 v dc, and the regenerative braking was *supposed* to put enough current back into the grids to provide power for other units starting. This did not work out so well, and I rememver the LIRR installing new sub-stations (I watched them set up one in Merrick). This was shortly after the M-1s hit the property. Apparently they boosted the voltage to 750vdc at this time: IIRC it had something to do with better transmission characteristics across the third rail. I do not recall anything about changing the motors from 600vdc to 750vdc though that could have been something as simple as moving some jumpers or something.. but more likely the 750vds was still well within the existing parameters of the motors.
Of course I *could* be all wet... but this is at least what I thought I understood, and so I will stand by it until somebody says something different. Your voltage may be different.
Elias
The 660 VDC would have allowed the TA to run subway cars on the track without significant modification.
During the era of the MP-41's on the LIRR I would suppose that 600 volts was standard, since the 41's were Gibbs cars meant to be run over the IRT (at least that was the plan back in the 20s/30's).
I'm curious as to whether this was before or after that infamous 87-mph test run when the R-44 motors birdcaged. Maybe that oldtimer was dispatched to tow that train back to TA property.
What is a motor birdcageing?
The rotor windings flew apart under excessive centrifigal force. Series wound motors can do that when they run too fast.
What's the straight dope on this R-44 test. I've heard
3 different takes:
1) The high-speed operation damaged a bunch of motors. Either
they "birdcaged" from being spun too quickly or they flashed over.
2) Nothing happened to the motors, but a bunch of the static
converters blew from the 750V.
3) Nothing bad happened at all. 1/2 of the cars were cut-out
deliberately for testing purposes.
Someone here must have been around back then and has the
authoritative answer?
Part of the speed trial involved deliberately cutting out two out of four motors on the cars. This was to simulate rush hour crowds. The cars reached 77 mph nonetheless. You can read about it in Gene Sansome's book published by NYCT and sold in the Transit Museum.
The birdcaging was attested to by a couple of TA employees posting here. It's in the archives.
The R44 still hold's the world speed record for subway cars.
A friend of mine told me that the R44's reached 87Mph under a similar test (It may have been the same one). And that the train was still speeding up. And that the only reason why they couldnt go faster was due to insufficient trackage up ahead
It's certainly possible the train could have exceeded 90 mph
It was. Actually it was 88 mph, and 77 mph with 2 out of 4 motors cut out to simulate crush load. It was run in 1972.
Just imagine if those cars had a flux capacitor and time circuits...:)
We'd be riding with Unca Dougie in 1227? :)
The "M-501, M-502" and some of the others were the ones assigned to LIRR for various uses. They were largely used as rescue motors for a brief period of time when the M-1's were new. They were modified for the purpose, such as motors for 750 volts and proper coupler cobbage. They did NOT MU with the M-1's, they were just there to move them when snow fouled the motors and for transfer of NYCTA equipment as well.
They protection the new subway cars when they delivery just like the R142 proctection by Loco Diesel with Rider Cars.
For Example:
Loco Diesel=Rider Car=6301-02-03-04-6305=Rider Car=Loco Diesel.
David J.
Protecting it with an R-1...
Those pictures were taken during testing of the R-44 when new. They tested them on the LIRR.
Peace,
ANDEE
The couplers are different. The R1 has MCB and R44 type and are used for interchange on the LIRR.
It is like Kadee and horn hook couplers on a HO scale car.
When they delivered the new R44's, they would be coupled at either end to an R1 or flatcar for protection.
Then they would be sent via the South Brooklyn Railroad (SBK), which had trackage along McDonald Avenue under the Culver (F) line, to the Avenue X yard, for delivery. They were pulled by an SBK diesel.
I was 6 or 7 years old at the time and remember seeing this from my school window. It was fascinating. If the teacher wasn't looking, I would lean over in my seat and watch them pass.
You might be amused to know that R1's and R4's were occasionally used (with motor mods) to pull LIRR M1's here and there when the snow shut down the LIRR cars. I remember there were four or five of them assigned to Jamaica for such occasions. When they HAD motors, they could pull their weight and then some.
This post doesn't have anything to do with the LIRR but it does have to do with the work motor R1 and R4 cars. I remember working miscellaneous out of 36th Street Yard back in the late 1970s and being dead-headed to East New York Yard to pick up a string of five R1-R9 "Willy Motors" (modified to carry four motors) and bring them back to 36th St. Yard. It turns out that all five cars were alive and the brakes (electric and all) were perfect. Always had to make sure the brake plug didn't wiggle out, always applying pressure to it. It was such a thrill to operate these cars and feel what it must have felt like to operate these cars when they were king. (I know I'm preaching to the choir) I even had the timers on the Williamsburg Bridge down to a science. One of the old-timers I worked with taught me the ropes and even he was impressed with my performance. Once you had the ME-23 brake valve down, you could operate anything.
There was nothing in the world that was sweeter than a consist of "rip-o-rama" Arnines and the D line had a good number of them BECAUSE of the bridge. Wet leaves, ice, snow on the Brighton. Feh. We moved. Funny you should mention the butt plug thingy though - always surprised me that they never built it with a spring load and a bayonet type twist and push connector scheme. You could always tell if you had a problem though - the slack action was a killer when it wasn't seated right. :)
The bridge downside though in either direction still scared the crap out of me, so I was usually clearing greens in my glass all the way down. Heh.
4-motor R-9s. Geez, that's 760hp. Those things must have hauled.
I can only imagine what those puppies would have done on any of the IND express runs - CPW, Queens, Fulton St. Can anyone say C above middle C in terms of bull and pinion gear pitch? We're talking screamers.
The one thing I still dont understand is how did they legally manage to run the R44/46's on the LIRR? Did they modify them to meet FRA standards or something?
It was only a test run. I assume the LIRR got an ICC waiver.
Has any newer stuff been tested on the LIRR?
The M-7's.
How fast can they go?
Warp 8 before they had their 'nads snipped. :)
What's with the TA's fear of speed? They cap the R142'S R143's the M-7 and even their busses.
Humans.
-Hank
I can tell you these cars are the R44 class. The numberplates give it away. SIR R44's still uses this style of number plates. R46 had the standard plate with white numbers and black background. TA changed R44 numberplates because constant washing wiped off the numbers.
is there a connecting track (s) from the nyc subway 2 the LIRR ???
is ....like a rail-link or something like that !!..........??
where if this is so ?? maybe at near willets point ??
is there a connecting track (s) from the nyc subway 2 the LIRR ???
is ....like a rail-link or something like that !!..........??
where if this is so ?? maybe at near willets point ??
(is there a connecting track (s) from the nyc subway 2 the LIRR ???
is ....like a rail-link or something like that !!..........??
where if this is so ?? maybe at near willets point ??)
I believe there are two, used for freight -- from the Bay Ridge Division to Linden Yard, and from the Bay Ridge Division to the 38th Street Yard via the South Brooklyn RR.
And presumably, this is how a subway train could access the LIRR tracks. Do they need a loco to pull them on this transitional track, or is it third-rail equipped.
right !! ..........thats the next Q & A question i wanted 2 ask !
thankz .........& where this is ....
??
The connector between Linden and the Bay Ridge freight line isnt electrified--a locomotive is necessary.
Thank you.
where do i go by bus & or subway 2 see this ?
this is what they use when the WBridge is out
Oh thats just nasty, havin the R44/46 connected to a R1.
-AcelaExpress2005
Amtrak Modeling
In front of the Staten Island Ferry terminal I noticed that new fare control devices were being installed at street level. Is this for the 1/9, the N/R/W (guess we have to start getting used to saying that), or both?
=)
The N/R/W station is 250' away on Whitehall St. There is no underground passageway. So if it's right in front of the ferry terminal, it has to be for the 1/9.
From appearances, it seems they are building a new staircase to the Whitehall St side of the ferry terminal.
-Hank
That sounds more like an educated guess than knowing for sure. I imagine that it makes sense that it's for the 1/9, but with all the reconstruction and renovation going on there I was wondering if that fare control is for both or not. IIRC something on the plans for the project called for easier access to both stations.
=)
"That sounds more like an educated guess than knowing for sure. I imagine that it makes sense that it's for the 1/9, but with all the reconstruction and renovation going on there I was wondering if that fare control is for both or not. IIRC something on the plans for the project called for easier access to both stations."
It's more than an educated guess; it's a deduction from known facts.
- There is a street between the Ferry Terminal and Whitehall Street.
- There is no pedestrian overpass over that street or underpass under it.
- Therefore, any construction at the base of the Ferry Terminal, if related to the subway, has to be related to the 1/9.
If there were evidence that they are now building an overpass to Whitehall Street, that would be different. That would be a very useful addition and may actually be in the plans. But that's not what was described in the original posting.
The new fare control is in the MIDDLE of the street between the Ferry Terminal and Whitehall Station, not at the base of the current Ferry Terminal. Since there was a hole dug and stairs shaped before the growth of the steel covering, my guess would be a new entrance to South Ferry station at either the north end of the outer loop platform or somewhere on the inner loop platform.
Maybe the reason for the new entrance has all to do with the reconstruction of the ferry terminal.
Bill "Newkirk"
It looks like such a perfect place to create a free transfer; connecting the BMT/IRT/LIRR to the IND. Especially now with all the construction taking place.
Any news if Forest City Ratner and the MTA would build a pedestrian tunnel between Atlantic Ave./Pacific St. and Fulton St./Lafayette Ave?
I think this is defintely a good place for a physical transfer, or at the very least for a Metrocard Transfer.
I should warn you though: This might tempt the TA to cut back the (G) on the south end too.
:-) Andrew
(I think this is defintely a good place for a physical transfer, or at the very least for a Metrocard Transfer.)
Anyone can pretty much transfer with a Metrocard right now. But it's worth building the connection so people don't have to go all the way up to the street, wait and street crossings, then go all the way down again, a loss of five minutes. The best solution is to eliminate Fulton/Lafayette and build a new express station right up against Atlantic Terminal, but that would be big bucks.
Not hooking the IND into Brooklyn's Grand Central was Hylan's biggest boner as far as I'm concerned.
Anyone can pretty much transfer with a Metrocard right now.
Oops. You forgot about pay-per-rides.
That would be a pretty long connection. Take a look at this map. http://www.cmap.nypirg.org/map_samples/bam/bam.pdf
The Brighton Line station at Atlantic is the eastern-most part of the complex, under the LIRR terminal across from St. Felix Street. The western-most portion of Fulton/Lafayette is the western end of the G Train Fulton station at Lafayette and Fulton, near the northwest conrner of Ft. Greene Place and Fulton.
The passageway would have to connect at least up a block from Hanson to Lafayette and over a block from St. Felix to Ft. Greene. The latter could be within the Atlantic Center Plaza, or whatever Ratner is calling it now, while the former would have to be under the street.
This would be akin to the passageway they are proposing for the Transi Center in Lower Manhattan. I cannot imagine the MTA allocating capital recources for this.
It really is too bad that the lines and stations in this area were so poorly designed. Imagine a three-level mega-station at the LIRR terminal with easy transfers between the IRT, the BMT, and the IND. Or, instead, imagine the mega-station being on Flatbush between Fulton (Nevins) and DeKalb (with a real Fulton/Lafayette station connecting directly to the LIRR). It is too late!
Per the Atlanta Urinal and Constipation, I mean Journal and Constitution, Atlanta is approving/has approved a new spur/line to the cumberland mall area on the northside. Rob or anyone, is this the NW line that was never built but has provisions built into the Arts Center tunnel or could this be an all new one? If so, where would the spur be? Ideas?
So a new MARTA line...cool.
Does said newspaper have an online version? If so, what is the URL for the story?
Mark
Nevermind. I found it:
Transit Plan Breezes to OK
I don't see the story. The paper is at http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/index.html, the local news section. I see an item of highway news and something about sprawls.
AEM7
Try this: http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/metro/0802/29tip.html
Mark
The new line will be light rail, it will intersect Midtown perpindicular to the N/S line and will terminate at Arts Center. The 17th Street bridge currently under construction over the Connector will carry the light rail from Atlantic Station to central Midtown. When I was working at the Urban Design Office at the GDOT, I saw the construction plans and concept drawings for the 17th St bridge that my design team worked on. Since the bridge will be completed before the light rail is, the bridge has provisions for converting from dedicated bus lanes to light rail. If construction starts fast enough on the rail line, I wouldn't be surprised if the bus lane phase is skipped and they prepare for only rail service instead. Given that there are no NIMBY protests, and businesses along the route want the line to be opened is soon as possible, it's possible to see construction start by late next year. (!)
When the North Line branch opened, it pretty much killed the possibilty of using the Northwest line bellmouths. It would be a pain in the arse for them to merge three routes onto one mainline.
The grand plan for the light rail system will involve extending the line past Arts Center to Druid Hills where it will use an old railroad ROW to make a circle around downtown and midotwn via Thomasville, West End, Vine City and Lindbergh. So far, this has just been a proposal by the City Council President (what's-her-name)and nothing solid has formed yet.
There is also another plan to have a line extend from Inman Park to Lithonia following I-20. MARTA is currently studying this plan. It could either be an extension of the MARTA East line or the light rail line. Hopefully Denise Majette can bring more money into Dekalb to fund this line.
Off Topic:
Rob, Did you see where Ga Tech was ranked 2nd highest college in US in terms of misery (too much studying, professors too difficult, no fun). Must have gotten alot harder since I graduated in '87.
BTW, my GT roomate (Civil Engineering grad) also works for the DOT. (K Hosey).
See ya, JR-Columbus GA
Just out of curiousity, what college was #1? Doubtful that it's Drexel, but I wouldn't rule out the University of Chicago. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's not Drexel, but their administration screwed me so much that I finall transferred to UConn during my sophomore year. It's almost as if they went out of their way to screw students (the "Drexel Shaft").
University of Missoura - Rolla was #1.
Here's the list:
http://www.review.com/college/rankings_19.html
No, where did you hear it?
The biggest thing I dislike about Tech is the fact that the profs will make you hate any subject you are interesed in because they'll teach you the hardest area of that subject and pound you with it. And the weirdest thing is that all the profs I've had (in the CEE school) are all really cool.
I used to hate the fact that there was a lack of hot girls on campus, but for some reason, this year, there are lots and lots of them. I asked around and I'm not alone, so some good things DO happen.
Sounds like Atlanta has some pretty ambitious plans, and even more remarkable, a decent chance of making some of the a reality. That's good to hear.
By the way, does the map on this Atlanta Regional Commission page show all the routes you discuss? I'm not sure I follow where the outer loop is supposed to go.
Mark
The one map that shows the "Rail corridor under MARTA review" will *probably* be the eastern section of the light rail loop. And the lower half of that corridor will be the line to Lithonia. The loop is not on the map because it was only proposed by the City Council President several months ago and nothing serious has been written yet. Looking at a MARTA map, think of the loop intersecting the stations Lindbergh, Inman Park or Candler Park, West End, Ashby or Vine City, and connecting or intersecting with the northwest light rail line. The loop makes a lot of sense because it would connect almost every busy bus corridor in the city.
Now I understand. That would be pretty cool.
As for the section that was just approved, how long before we see construction beginning?
Mark
Originally, the approved line (Phase I) was to be completed in 2010, and Phase II (beyond Cumberland) in 2015. But everyone along the proposed route wanted the line to be completed sooner, so it has been bumped up to 2005 for Phase I, and 2010 for II. I'd say it should take a year or so to design it, so at the earliest, late 2003 would be reasonable to start construction. Mid 2004 at the latest.
Traditionally, American labor unions have protected the most senior workers and screwed the inexperienced workers. This makes sense in a world where the most senior workers have the most experience and does the job the best.
But, the most senior people are also the most expensive, which means there has to be relatively more people furloughed than if the furloughs started at the top end.
This may not make sense in all crafts, for example, if you were an airline pilot, then you need to accumulate certain number of flight hours before you can take a large jumbo jet out for a spin. Also experienced pilots apparently react better in an emergency situation like an engine failure or other technical failure.
But does it make sense in all crafts? Like in the token booth, or as a conductor, or an LSA, it's a "burn out" position. You deal with the public every day. After five years on the job, most people cease to care. Shouldn't furloughs there start with the most senior, most tired out people?
What do people think? I like to hear from labor as well as the management on this issue.
AEM7
Well, experienced teachers can be of two types: experienced and thoroughly competent, or long-in-the-tooth and incompetent jackasses.
On the other hand, poorly performing airline pilots tend not to last very long. Unlike teachers, you can get rid of them very quickly for certain transgressions.
An incompetent teacher keeps teaching - or perhaps is reassigned to admin duties. An incompetent railroad engineer can be fired on the spot for doing something as simple as ignoring a red signal - one time.
From a ruthless economic point of view, laying off the most senior workers probably often makes the most sense.
From a human point of view, these are the workers who have the hardest time finding a new job.
From a labor union politics point of view, I suspect there are internal forces that make the union's policy be one of laying off the most junior workers.
(From a labor union politics point of view, I suspect there are internal forces that make the union's policy be one of laying off the
most junior workers. )
Unions love layoffs. Even if there are real elections that can't be fixed, those on the losing end lose their ability to vote against their tormentors. And if services decline, so what? At least here in NYC, most of the civil servants who count live in the suburbs.
Back in the Dinkins budget crisis, when the City Planning budget was slashed, a few people with outdated notions of what unions are suggested all for one, one for all, share the pain furloughs rather than layoff. THAT didn't go over. A bunch of people were fired instead. Later, it turned out that many of the leaders of DC37 were stealing union funds, and some even went to jail.
Generally, union members' dues are proportional to their pay. For instance, I pay 0.9% of my salary to my union. The senior members are usually higher paid, thus pay more to the union. One could argue, then, that they have a proportionally higher stake in union related activities. One could also argue that on a per member basis they can support union management better.
(The senior members are usually higher paid, thus pay more to the union. One could argue, then, that they have a proportionally higher
stake in union related activities. One could also argue that on a per member basis they can support union management better. )
If they'd stop using the term "union," and substitute something more appropriate, like "an offer you can't refuse," then that might make sense.
Many furloughs ought to be voluntary, especially if they are to be of a temporary duration. It may be that an older employee might take one to get some other things done, especially if their kids are grown and through college.
Sometimes empolyeers might like to furlough people on a seasonal basis, and maybe call some back during peek vacation periods.
If there is mutual respect, understandings can be reached that could accomodate both parties.
Elias
You would save a ton of money firing people just as they were about to vest.
In fact I was fired from a job 2 day before I was going to vest and this company had a history of firing the senior non-owner. Just as I reached a certain level of competency they start to give the guy in front of me grief.
Does anyone know when the new schedules come out for the lines affected by the 9/8 service changes? ie Will they be out before 9/8, or after 9/8. I don't even want to pick one up, I could just download it off of their site, but so far all I see are schedules designated 12/2001. Can anyone tell me based on the past when {about} will they be out? ex) When the bridge service was flipped to Bway, when did the new schedules come out?
IIRC, the 7/22/01 schedules were first posted around 7/20/01. Search the archives and you'll find my announcement.
I just went onto the website to look for some cheap fares BOS-TOL. I remember someone saying that #448/#449 is always packed. They've obviously noticed this. Advance-purchase fares have gone up to $165 round-trip (used to be around $100 round-trip).
I'm considering flying (Delta at $143), but then I might work out a scam with #49, which is on Rail Sale at $66 round-trip.
AEM-7
What or (Where) is TOL? I think I am not alone in saying that I am confused by these destination codes and would greatly appreciate it if you use the name of the destination.
Thanks
I'd guess Toledo.
And why not charge that? After all, there are those that expect Amtrak to make a profit and if the market will bear getting stuck up, then that's what the laissez fairy would approve of, right? Be careful what you ask for, you may have to pay it. :)
(just busting chops)
I wasn't bitching -- I was actually pointing out that it is a *good* think they are raking in $. I was just surprised to see the #49 at a discount. If they really have so much trouble filling up #49, they should reallocate cars and have three cars go to BOS and three cars to NYP instead of having the current 2/4 combination.
AEM7
Maybe #49 is a "loss leader" to get the rubes to the platform. :)
I've being thinking of making a trip to West Virginia to visit a chartiable organaiztion that I've been senting donations to. They told me the trip could be done by train by going to Washington and changning for a train to Harper's Ferry. So.....
Is the Harper's Ferry leg of the trip via AMTRAK or a commuter rail line?
I would appreicate any advice about getting the cheapist AMTRAK fare I could get. Any advice about how far in advance to book, what days or time of day to travel or any other dicounts offered would be appreciated. I'll be traveling alone, so 2 for 1 style offers wouldn't help.
I know the website will give me information, but I figure there may be discounts that are not heavily published.
Thanks in advance
Ive used my AAA card and and saved 15% go to Amtrak.Com
look there they have all kinds of fares or if you know a friend who is a travel agent they can help too Good Luck Stevie
Is the Harper's Ferry leg of the trip via AMTRAK or a commuter rail line?
Amtrak.
I would appreicate any advice about getting the cheapist AMTRAK fare I could get.
The Capitol (Harpers Ferry train) is at present discounted to about 30% its original price (i.e. 70% discount) on the Amtrak website, for travel between Sept. 9 and Oct 30. Now is a good time to book.
If you are leaving from NYP, expect all fares to be more than $50 one way, $80 round trip. There are virtually no Amtrak discounts in the Northeast Corridor.
I have a discount code that I could give you if you promise me that you're actually going to make the trip by Amtrak.
AEM7
I most definately make the trip by AMTRAK. I have not had the oppurtunity to take a trip like this in awhile, since AMTRAK goes to where I want to go, I wouldn't miss the oppurtunity to travel by AMTRAK and visit this organization. I get to couple a train trip (a hobby) with a visit to an organization that does a lot of good. I get a two-fer!
I'm not sure about when, but since you say the discounts are through October 30, I think Mid to late October will be the time. Is there any advantage to booking 30 or 60 days in advance (I guess I can still make the 60, but it would be tight).
There are a number of types of discounts. Rail Sale discounts are available up to the 8th day before departure. (Unlike airline 7-day advance fares which are available up to 7th day before departure). Rale Sale discounts are fully refundable. There is then the three-day advance purchase fares which is what the website will sell you if you log on more than three-day in advance and proceed "normally". Then there are the day-before fares which are more expensive, then there are the "walk on" fares (YOFC) which are the most expensive.
Only "walk-on" fares are available on the Northeast Corridor. All NEDirect tickets are either YOFC, YOTC, YRFC, YRTC.
Combination tickets like one you are trying to buy (NEC origin to non-NEC destinations or vice versa) are subject to a complicated fare plan. Your fare plan would be based on the non-NEC segment but will include the NEC portion of the trip with basically the same travel (but not refund) restrictions as YOFC tickets. So if you're trying to take advantage of the Rale Sale discounts, it's wise to price up each options to see which one turns out cheaper.
AEM7
If I am correct, MARC commuter rail also goes to Harpers Ferry from DC, but only on weekdays.
AEM-7
Thanks, I got the discount codes and the price with them were a significant reduction. But I will not have my plans finalized until after labor day and the codes appear to expire on 9/2. I'll see if the system will take them when I'm ready to book next week.
In anyevent I was surprized that fairs were more or less reasonable. I guess when you get off the NE corridor, the prices are in a different league.
Piggo
Thanks again.
Cut and Paste from the NPS web site
MARC commuter trains operate Monday through Friday between Union Station in Washington, D.C., and Martinsburg, W.Va. on the MARC Brunswick Line. One-way fare from Union Station to Harpers Ferry is $7.25; round trip is $13.24. For additional information about MARC train schedules and ticket reservations, call 1-800-325-RAIL or visit the MARC Website.
MARC Brunswick Line Schedule
Departs Union Station at 4:55 pm – Arrives Harpers Ferry at 6:12 pm
Departs Union Station at 5:30 pm – Arrives Harpers Ferry at 7:00 pm
Departs Union Station at 6:45 pm – Arrives Harpers Ferry at 8:10 pm
Departs Harpers Ferry at 5:56 am – Arrives Union Station 7:25 am
Departs Harpers Ferry at 7:01 am – Arrives Union Station 8:29 am
Amtrak's Capitol Limited between Washington, D.C., and Chicago, Illinois, stops in Harpers Ferry, W.Va., seven days a week. Fare from Washignton, D.C., to Harpers Ferry is $17 one-way. Reservations are required. Call Amtrak toll free at 1-800-872-7245 or visit the AMTRAK Website.
Amtrak Capitol Limited Schedule
Departs Union Station at 4:05 pm – Arrives Harpers Ferry at 5:13 pm
Departs Harpers Ferry at 12:47 pm – Arrives Union Station 2:20 pm
Metro Rail service in Washington, D.C. runs between Reagan National Airport and Union Station. The Harpers Ferry train station is about a half-mile walk from Harpers Ferry Center.
I've heard that there are "plans" in connection with the WTC rebuild to possibly extend the LIRR Brooklyn line to lower Manhattan, possibly using the tracks of the A/C lines.
How can this physically be accomplished? I'm guessing that a new turnoff and tunnel must be built to connect the LIRR tunnel after Nostrand Avenue and the A/C lines. Are the two tunnels very far apart? And how would the A/C tunnels have to be altered to accomodate LIRR cars?
I'm not optimistic about this ever being built, but as a daily LIRR/Brooklyn rider who works in lower Manhattan, I would love a one seat ride to work every day.
It would involve a LIRR takeover of NYCT's Cranberry Street Tubes. NYCT service would be shifted to the Rutgers Street Tubes, which are only used to half their capacity. However, doing so would mean a subway service reduction that is not warranted by ridership levels (from approximately 41 trains an hour in the peak to 30), and it would mean a SEVERE reduction of subway service between Brooklyn and lower Manhattan (from about 26 trains an hour to ZERO). Over 100,000 subway riders would be inconvenienced to help maybe 15,000 LIRR riders.
That is, if it could be done at all...there IS the slight matter of the LIRR equipment being to big to fit in the subway tunnels...someone would have to come up with money to build a fleet of hybrid equipment that could run on both commuter rail lines (with commuter rail standards of comfort) and in the subway, including the ability to handle dual voltages (600 volts vs. 750 volts or thereabouts). These cars would have to be subway car width (10') and length (75') but be able to platform safely at LIRR platforms. And, as far as I know, nobody has quite figured out WHERE the physical connection between the LIRR and subway structures would be built.
There are additional posts about this in the archives. It was big news a few months ago.
David
Y'know, the voltage problem might not actually be a problem. If the LIRR would to take over part of the subway unimpeded, the voltage on that section could be changed without impeding the rest of the system.
David
As far as Brookfield is concerned, having the LIRR take the Cranberry would be a double win -- more white Nassau and Suffolk residents, and few minority Brooklyn residents, passing their properties. For Brooklyn, however, it would be a disaster.
Better, though more expensive, would be a new tunnel for the LIRR from Atlantic Avenue, then up Second Avenue as an express level to Grand Central, then over to Secaucus Transfer. With one easy change of trains, New Jersey Transit riders would have a fast ride to Grand Central, and LIRR AND MetroNorth riders would have a fast ride Downtown, all without use of the subway. And there would be no need to build an unbeliveably expensive terminal in Manhattan. The sububan super-connector could be FRA compatible, allowing through service LIRR to NJT.
But Water Street isn't right next to Brookfield's Properties.
As far as Brookfield is concerned, having the LIRR take the Cranberry would be a double win -- more white Nassau and Suffolk residents, and few minority Brooklyn residents, passing their properties. For Brooklyn, however, it would be a disaster.
I really, really, really doubt that the Brookfield execs are thinking that way.
"I really, really, really doubt that the Brookfield execs are thinking that way."
OK, let's call it "better access for the most highly paid portion of the labor force that works in Brookfield's WFC buildings, while incidentally (not deliberately) disregarding the transportation needs of less well paid workers who live in Brooklyn."
There are no such plans in the offing. Maybe you read something on the Subtalk board?
If you think about it, the use of the Cranberry St tunnels for this is ridiculous. Why would you believe a story like that?
It was in the news here a few months ago. Brookfield Properties, a major lower Manhattan property owner, proposed it.
David
The proposal is NOT for a one-seat ride. You'd have to transfer at Jamaica.
Essentially, the plan is to spend $2 billion to move the LIRR downtown transfer point from Brooklyn to Queens. But watch it get major play in future weeks. We're on to it, but the general public and newspapers don't get it yet.
hey guys. sad to say now MTA took my MNR I.D. anyways i dunno what will happen now. im not fired, but im not working either, and i no longer ride MNR for free and all that good stuff. my boss now knows my situation. she is going to try to get me a new title. its a 95% percent chance she will cause the RR has alot of openings. im still worried tho. thanx for all of your support
Here's hoping things go happier for ya and they find something.
good luck
I do not know about MN, but in NYCT if they take your pass and ID,, you will be instructed when to report to labor relations for possible termination. Fortunately that has never happened to me.
Good luck.
8AV-EXPRESS, I don't know you but you are freaking me out. I am beginning to think I'm going to get fired/furloughed for no reason from the MTA. Either you can tell us what the reason is -- either you have done something wrong, or you haven't -- or please stop making me paranoid. There's nothing worse than not knowing why people get fired/furloughed, and you are forever wondering if the same thing may happen to you even if you do everything right. You are making it sound like MTA fires/furloughs people for no reason and for doing nothing wrong. You are making me question my own job security.
AEM7
Political subdivisions/agencies can fire you because they don't like the way your HAIR is combed while you're a "provisional." No "cause" is required in most circumstances. The union won't back you up and you serve at the whim/pleasure of the person you report to. In PRACTICE however, they'll find SOME cause as the reason for dismissal just in case you have political connections they may be unaware of. I'd be interested as well but this being a public place and all and his posterior still hanging off the poopdeck, I see a good deal of WISDOM on his part for NOT discussing it until he's been "exit-interviewed" since he might STILL have some options. If he discussed them here, those options may go away.
hey guys its actually no big deal. the reason i remain soo hopeful is because i didnt do anything wrong. its just that i worked at mcdonalds for 2 years and when i tried to be a trackworker, my body simply wasnt strong enuf. i passed all the written exams even getting a 90 on the written final. however, the final is a written and physical exam. the physical part of the qualification was, u must drive 3 spikes in 10 minutes. i couldnt drive the spike because not only am i too weak, but it was my second day in the field, meaning my nody was sore from day one. anyways im not fired or terminated, because if i was they would have said so. i figured out that they took my I.D because for 2 reasons. number one i am not working, number 2, Metro North I.D specifically says what you do. mine said trackworker. now if i am not working and i am no longer a trackworker, why keep the I.D? after all, once i start a new position which is highly likely, i will get a new pass
Here's hoping they find something else for ya then. And yeah, "gandy-dancing" is some pretty serious work that requires mucho beefo. Hopefully signal maintainer or other not QUITE as gnarly things are there for ya.
So you busted a medical??
Taking your ID should be almost equal to your walking papers unless they transfer you to another title.
Yeah, but this is today's "touchy feely MTA" ... they rip your wings off but stay mum until you've had "counseling" from Hummin' Racehorses. It's a kinder, gentler MTA. "exit interviews" and such. Or MAYBE there really IS something else for the guy. But we all gotta tune in next week, same bat-time, same bat-channel because when it comes to political subdivision employment, not only are the CHECKS lagged, so is the reality. :)
Well he didn't bust a medical because they found drugs in his urine. I'm surprised they didn't let him re-take the spike test. They would not put someone through all the safety training if they thing his body was not up to the notch to be a trackworker. Track safety courses cost some $1,000 per head and they don't just throw that kind of money away.
I'll be interested in taking the spike test just to see if I would last. I suspect not, but that's cuz I am 5'5" and 131 lbs. That said, there is also a technique to hammering spikes. You have to let the hammer fall and let the hammer do the work. You dno't bash the spike. All you have to do is raise the hammer. Once the hammer drops on the spike, you kind of shove it round and back up in the air in one continuous motion. No point losing the momentum. Easier said than done, but with practice it becomes easier.
Did they let you practice spiking before you took the test?
AEM7
You're making assumptions here...Paul (A 8AV..) is one of my very good friends and he's not a drug addict, he was simply sore from the previous day having done field work for training. When it came to the spike test, his arms were sore as hell as mine would be too, and he didn't come up with the strength needed. I'm sure I speak for him in this one.
You're making assumptions here...Paul (A 8AV..) is one of my very good friends and he's not a drug addict,
Re read my post. I said he did NOT fail the medical because of that.
Nevermind..misread your message!!!
This morning here in Sea Cliff was squalls of heavy rain. Lost power momentarily a few times, as some lines in the area went down from tree limbs. Any problems on the subways or commuter systems? I'd be suprised if there wasn't, this morning was NASTY.
2-3 inches of rain they said, and boy we needed it.
I've been noticing a few trucks (18-wheelers) on the highway and on a dark-shaded white color trailer, I would see the logo for BNSF railroad. Other trailers I saw were of CSX.
Do the rail companies carry the same type of freight as they do on their freight trains?
What are they for? Additional cargo transports?
Off-link: What is the difference between BNSF and Santa Fe?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
Illinois Central has its own trailers also.
AEM-7? Comment?
I was leaving that one for Jersey Mike, who is our resident expert, intermodal division.
Hint: Those trailers you see on the double stack are the same trailers as you see on the highways.
AEM7
Instead of running little locals all over creation, especially over routes that have already been torn out... They drop one of these at your door, you load it, and they cart it off to the train. The train moves it to the depot nearest its destination, and then a truck brings it to it's destination.
Other carriers such as "Yellow" also do this, and UPS has dedicated trains to their service.
The containers also perform this function, but they are usually owned by steamship companies, and deliver goods from China ot Peoria or wherever. Some of the containers are "extra length" and these are domestic, and are not carried on ships. You will see them only on the top levels of the flatcars.
Elias
BNSF was formed by the merger of BN (Burlington Northern, which in itself was the merger of the CB&Q [Chicago, Burlington, and Quincy], GN [Great Northern], and NP [Northern Pacific]) and the AT&SF (Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe). My older daughter, who lives within hearing distance of the BNSF (ex-Santa Fe) main through Kingman, Arizona, refers to it as the "Big Noisy Stinky Fleet", since they run through at 79 mph, blowing their whistles at all hours of the day and night - and they're running as many as ten trains an hour on the double track.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. CSX is like that here in Voorheesville ... but you've GOTTA be a railroader or ex-railroader to consider living here in the first place so we don't mind it. Drives the yuppies NUTS and they move out in no time after building or buying their McMansions. Long long short long ... whoda ever thunk it'd be the yuppie's anti-pied piper? :)
Would she like to sell, cheap?
-Hank
She probably would, but her husband and my grandchildren love it... whenever I'm talking on the phone to Alex (age 5 1/2) and the whistle blows he gets excited and wants to know when I'm coming out again to take him "train chasing". I think it's mostly good-natured grumbling though - it's so frequent that after a while you don't even notice it. Her bigger complaint is that there are really only three places in town where you can get from one side to the other without a grade crossing, and at certain times of the day the gates are down more than they're up. Fortunately, they live on the same side of town as the grocery stores and the college where she works, so it's not that much of a problem for her.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Straight out of one of my FAVORITE movies, da Blues Brothers:
Scene 109 Jake and Elwood in hotel room
Elwood: Well, it ain't much, but it's home.
Jake: How often does the train go by?
Elwood: So often you won't even notice.
(song)
Elwood: I falsified my renewal.
Elwood: I put down 1060 West Addison.
Jake: 1060 West Addison... That's Wrigley Field.
Elwood: I gotta hit the sack. Hey you sleeze, my bed.
Ah yes... I was in Chicago when they were filming the big chase scene at the end of the movie and saw the action, and I've also shopped in the mall that they trashed... my wife and I bought some supplies for our wedding there before the mall closed. That movie (and BB2) are regulars on our VCR.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heh. Lotta space in this mall. :)
If folks wanna move in where the choochoos roam, then they'd either best become foamers, or move to where you can only hear the semis blowing through the interstate. Or the 'burbs, where it's all night drag racing. Frankly I'll take the trains. Confuses the coyotes. Heh.
BNSF was formed by the merger of BN (Burlington Northern, which in itself was the merger of the CB&Q [Chicago, Burlington, and Quincy], GN [Great Northern], and NP [Northern Pacific])
And also the SP&S [Spokane, Portland & Seattle]
How about Frisco (SLSF) which was added later.
Or Colorado and Western, also added later? Or Columbia Northern, a shortline from around Yakima WA. It also picked up a bit of Milwaukee Road lines, especially in Washington, Idaho and Montana.
Burlinton Northern definately lost a bit of it's class after it's merger with Santa Fe. I'm one of those odd Seattle eighties babies that knew nothing of Great Northern, Northern Pacific or Milwaukee. To me there was nothing better than an SD40-2 in cascade green and black rumbling across the Ship Canal Bridge north of Balmer Yd. The Cascade green units just blended into the Evergreen State, making themselves less obtrusive and making the units appear part of the landscape. After BNSF, the influx of Warbonnet and Heritage units have cheapened the railfanning, and practically scream for attention, rather than just hint at their image of trains.
Oh well, that's my little semi off topic rant.
From a railfan perspective, BNSF is definitely a failed merger. I'm a hardcore ATSF fan, I guess I don't even need to tell you what I think of BN Green let alone the stupid hybrid schemes.
From a management perspective, BN badly needed to be straightened out by the Krebs gang. BN was one big failed merger; the NP and GN guys were still fighting each other by the time ATSF got in. If it weren't for the infusion of the warbonnets screaming for attention, the former GN and NP guys would still be carving each other's throat out.
ATSF learned a great deal from BN. BN also learned a great deal from ATSF. BNSF came out of the merger healthier than any of the preceeding roads. But BNSF is too big. But then, they didn't exactly ask for a rival like UP, either.
AEM7
I was never a fan of ATSF, though my ride on their Super Chief from LA to CHI was a nice run. Don't run anything with ATSF markings on my model railroad either. I just never cottoned to any thing in the south especially the Dallas Cowcritters! (UGH!)
On the otherhand, I like the BNSF heritage green/ornage scheme. Looks classy.
As far as mergers... What If... PRR c NP... Call it the Penn-Northern! or NYC c ATSF... call it the SantaFe-Central! Those mergers would ahve made more sense (according to me) than the regional consolidations that did take place.
Elias
Burlinton Northern definately lost a bit of it's class after it's merger with Santa Fe. I'm one of those odd Seattle eighties babies that knew nothing of Great Northern, Northern Pacific or Milwaukee. To me there was nothing better than an SD40-2 in cascade green and black rumbling across the Ship Canal Bridge north of Balmer Yd. The Cascade green units just blended into the Evergreen State, making themselves less obtrusive and making the units appear part of the landscape. After BNSF, the influx of Warbonnet and Heritage units have cheapened the railfanning, and practically scream for attention, rather than just hint at their image of trains.
One thing I remember from my trip to Seattle last year was the impressive sight of all the BNSF units in the Balmer Yard. There seemed to be more decent viewing points than is usual with large yard facilities. But I know what you mean - if they all were green, it would've looked even better.
The latest BN engines look pretty good, but the BN SD-40's were yuck. They have this green-and-white chevron on the nose of the locomotive that makes them look like locomotive working prison complexes, and they have dirty hoods, and the body looks very plain and boring (all green), and the green is a disgusting green.
The later engines, i.e. the SD70MAC's etc have a Conrail-like big smiley green scheme that utilized a different tone of green (darker), had the BN logo painted on the safety cab nose (instead of the annoying green chevron), and the numbers were not too big, and the hood was kept clean and painted nicely with the railroad name and logo written out instead of just being a disgusting, puke-like green color that looked as if the whole engine was radioactive.
I saw some ex-BN SD-45's working the Wisconsin Central. I couldn't wait for them to be repainted into yellow-and-maroon warbonnet. That looked much better.
Repainting of BN SD-70MAC's were a mistake, from a railfan perspective.
AEM7
NO NO NO!!! THAT BE HERESY! I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA LA LA!
Those 'Radioactive' Green SD40-2's were what I was raised on, they are my R33s, my PCCs, my GG1s. I can clearly tell that you were never in Seattle when the Great Burlington Northern (I think that sounds better, GN was a cool railroad too,IMHO, c'mon, GBN?) was in full stride. There was nothing quite like the sight of a yellow line of Trailer Trains up around Stevens Pass, engines invisible against the Pine trees that grow like weeds in the northwest. Cascade Green conveyed a sense of purpose, of a workhorse rather than racehorse mentality, while at the same time not going to the extreme that some eastern coal haulers went to with their monochrome dip schemes. ATSF's yellow warbonnet wasn't bad, in fact it, and indeed the Chief Warbonnet (although all that is a cheesy promotion harkening back to ATSF's "Golden Days", taking a great scheme and spreading it over equipment that was never made for it like mad is not classy, far from it), were well suited to the geography through which they travel, and there they too, if not quite blending, then certainly complementing the Desert and Plains terrain through which they run. However, there is nothing quite so ridiculus looking as a farggin Dash8-40CW with a Red Warbonnet blasting down Puget Sound past Shoreline, followed by an equally clownish Heritage unit, and perhaps one lone Cascade Green SD, but only if I am lucky.
That green is far from disgusting, it is Evergreen Green, like the Pine Tree, ya know? It was a scheme that made perfect sense, since, post merger, BN had almost all of it's western terminals in the Evergreen State of Washington, and had huge amounts of pre-Intermodal and Merchandiser trains heading to the "Emerald City" of Seattle and Tacoma. Indeed, I believe that there were a few civil actions (Noise Abatement issues, IIRC) against BN that were dropped because the locals were willing to admit that the trains did not distinguish themselves in any way other than the sound.
As for the merger thing, I though that ATSF was by far the minor party at the merging. Other than Krebs getting to be pres, it was a BNSF buyout of ATSF. I mean you do not see BNSF ontop of the building that ATSF once occupied in Shaumberg IL, and the scheme that was chosen, no matter how classless, was based on the Great Northern's original diesel scheme. ATSF may have been a greatly run railroad, thanks in part or in whole to Krebs, but it's parent company was in no shape to go on running and had to unload ATSF on Burlington Northern, thus becoming BNSF. Heck maybe they shoulda just absorbed ATSF, and given the warbonnets a good dip in Cascade Green, stuck a 'BN' on the front, and sent em right up over Raton Pass!
Oh for the day when the only orange in Balmer Yard was a new SD60 or GP50!
as a BN fan (really a Q fan) I certainly appreciated the green scheme. As a R, however, I think they had 'lost it' with no real sense of direction and not much hustle. Santa Fe brought the focus back--customers want to know when the train will deliver the load not whether the bunker is in FT. Worth or the headquarters in Seattle.
As to post merer paint--the FIRST Green/Orange sceme is drop dead gorgeous IMHO but the tradition honoring Warbonnet says something aboutcontinuity which I like. And they all outrank the 'yellowbonnet scheme. Can't wait to see what's up on the Museum & Santa Fe. (it was closed for rehab last time I was at the Museum of Science & Industry)
In other words, they are running trains competently.
It would be a lot stinkier if they ran at 30 mph.
My older daughter, who lives within hearing distance of the BNSF (ex-Santa Fe) main through Kingman, Arizona, refers to it as the "Big Noisy Stinky Fleet", since they run through at 79 mph, blowing their whistles at all hours of the day and night - and they're running as many as ten trains an hour on the double track.
I've been through Kingman last summer for our trip to Grand Canyon. We took I-40 from Los Angeles and viewed long distances of double track freight rail built in the middle of the desert. 79mph is pretty fast as I saw a full, 80-100 car train traveling at 72mph (estimation done by the van's speedometer. we were going a bit faster).
It was VERY interesting as I never saw a freight train move that fast. I've heard students say about rail safety: "Why do they tell us to be careful about those freight trains. They go so slow." Obviously they haven't looked at the other side of the coin and everyone still MUST be careful about railroads no matter how slow or fast they go.
Aside from the fact that many RR Freight comanies have their own truck and ocean shipping partners or subsiduaries (CSX just sold its ocean freight unit) and hense put their logo on the various trailers, the whole RoadRailer cencept litterally turns trailers into railroad cars. A RoadRailer is just a trailer that can hook onto a special built "keystone" rail truck. Probably the best known RoadRailer service is Triple Crown which was owned by Conrail and now NS. All Roadrailers have to have railroad reporting marks and they will frequently have small RR logos. Amtrak ownes RoadRailers and you will see them w/ AMTZ reporting marks and numbers. Here is an image that might help.
I would see the logo for BNSF railroad. Other trailers I saw were of CSX.
I've seen two designs of the BNSF logo; the old orange-paint scheme on its locomotives, and the one I saw on the trucks with the colors green, blue, and white. How many logos does BNSF have and how did the second design occur?
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You.
BNSF seems to be using the cross in the circle logo on their freight equipment to include the trailers and freight cars. Only the trailers seems to use the color logo, while the freight cars are mineral red with white lettering.
Can someone send me any info on the duties of a conductor or train operator. Email me or post it here.(still waiting for the MTA to call me)
The T/O or Motorman's job is to operate a subway train at as high a speed as possible, so that when he races triumphantly and gloriously through a red signal, he can crash spectacularly into the next train even after the tripper arm puts him in BIE.
:0)
Heh. Well, if they're going to be hiring up scabbies for the strike, I'll give you my set of wrenches and gloves. :)
The C/R's job is to see how many people he can nail with the doors at each station. The more he hits, the more overtime pay he earns. When s/he gets soemone who runs into the closing doors face first they get a bonus.
Don't forget the Motor Destructor's job of supervising not only the whole mess but to operate where not qualified and smash wooden el cars into sharp curves and blame the strikers.
And also acting as wheel chocks on cuts and adds on grade to prevent rollbacks and unintended adds. :)
While drifting between sleep and conciousness, I thought about starting a thread or debate on how the olimpics could be the thing that sets off a series of service and subway expansion / improvements? My main point is : Could this be the thing that gets the second avenue subway off the ground and moving with a vengeance, as well as the MTA taking on a "Screw the Nimby's" attitude when taking on service and infrastructure improvements. Station renovations could also take on a new fast pace. Lexington ave is already maxed out and then some. The olimpics would make the Second av subway a necessity, and Lexington could see station expansion.
What are your thoughts?
I really hope that's the case. If the Olympics do come here, the entire world will be staring down the MTA's back, just wondering why their system is good enough..!
It is possible that the Olympics could steer some money toward some of NY's "loser" priorities -- ie. parks and new transportation investments -- and away from the winners -- health care, the elderly, the non-profits, high pensions for pre-1980 public employees. But the latter have already taken the money and run, and it will be hard to get it back. And the other "loser" priorities -- the schools, sky high business taxes -- are still out there.
No, and if anything the olympics will make crowding worse.
>>No, and if anything the olympics will make crowding worse.<<
True, but for a two week period when the games are on. But think of the tax revenues being raked in.
Bill "Newkirk"
--if anything the olympics will make crowding worse.--
Umm, that's my point.
If the Olympics does come to NY, they should run a special loop track around Flushing Meadows Park. It would connect to the Queens Corridor line via Jamaica Yard.
Is this an original idea of mine? NO! It was done for the 1930 something World's Fair, except they did not use a loop track.
Some kind of expanded subway service would be needed, that's for sure.
Would it be a good idea to get second avenue off the ground for the olympics, or only fix up the 7 train, or both?
scrap the 7 train... The 6 needs releaf
Will the olympics give the MTA incentive to get the second AV subway up and running sooner?? The TA can Work quickly like they did on the destroyed 1/9 subway tunnels, why is second AV taking so long?
federal aid.
I believe the line to Flushing Meadows was an extension of the Queens Boulevard Local from Continental Avenue along the side of Jamaica Yard etc...
A loop terminal on a reinstated line on a similar alignment would make a hell of a lot of sense. If built correctly, there could be G, R and V trains to the Olympics :D:D:D (Remember - terminal capacity f***s up Queens Local service at the moment - a Flushing Meadows Loop Terminal would solve this!)
Recently, a German ICE line was placed IN SERVICE here.
AEM7
Very nice.
After 9/11 I haven't visited JFK airport. Can you enter Terminals 1 and 4 (int'l arrivals) to browse in shops or go to the food court or do have to have a ticket?
When airtrain opens I might check it out, but I'm not taking any chances (pictures).
After 9/11 I haven't visited JFK airport. Can you enter Terminals 1 and 4 (int'l arrivals) to browse in shops or go to the food court or do have to have a ticket?
When airtrain opens I might check it out, but I'm not taking any chances (pictures).
Only those portions of the terminals past the security checkpoints are restricted to ticketed passengers. Other parts are open to everyone.
I admit I shot pix at Newark airport (EWR) after 9/11. I "felt" odd, and that I was being watched, but no problems. I stayed off the bus ramps and kept to the walkways. I got great pix. But it may just depend on the luck of the day. Some hot shot security person may just be in the mood to start up, so it is a gamble.
jrc
I was at every terminal of JFK, before AND after 9/11...you can browse the shops, but be ready to shell outs some dough if you EVER plan on buying anything at Terminal 4...that stuff is pricey...you can go there and browse around, though...as for taking pictures there...I did take some with my digital camera, and they came out pretty good...you just have to be a bit cautious while doing so...don't stick around one area for too long...and try not to look like someone suspicious...
Carlton
Cleanairbus
White Plains IRT
"JFK the way to go!"
The first of the new SuperSteel (makers of the LIRR DEMU's) rebuilds has gone on the road for testing and it passed testing WONDERFULLY:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=56390&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=8/29/2002
(no subscription required)
Meanwhile, over at the Joe Bruno Boondoggle and maybe train station, the bad news continues ...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=56379&category=REGION&newsdate=8/29/2002
Good news about the trains indeed.
SuperSteel *is* the folks who made those LIRR trains with oh so many problems, but fortunately these are REBUILDS of other vendor's trains. I got a fast sneak onto this train about 6 months ago on the factory floor and a couple of the cars had their interior work done already.
Here's the deal - every seat has AC power and an INTERNET connection for your laptop (no cruising on dead batteries) and word was there would also be TV and movies available. They're VERY nice cars and the control stand in the locos are something right out of StarTrek.
Can't wait ... here's hoping there's a station for them to pull into. :)
So their creature comforts should equal the Acela's offering.
Speaking of which, I hope the Acelas are back on duty.
When is Amtrak receiving its 20th train set?
So their creature comforts should equal EXCEEDS the Acela's offering.
Cool!
From what I saw with my own eyes, and from what I've heard from folks that work up there, the new TurboTrains will make Acela look and feel like a STAGE COACH. The amenities are STUNNING and you can actually get OUT of the bathroom when you're done. :)
The ride is MUCH smoother so I'm told and they're just as quiet. They'll be the envy of the rails. Even the remaining old ones are pretty nice though you had to pay "business class" for AC power and internet service on the existing fleet. ANY seat in the new ones is good for all the trimmings.
When is Amtrak receiving its 20th train set?
What kind of a crack is that?
According to the September issue of "Railpace", ACELA trainset #19 has not yet been delivered. AMTRAK recently declined to accept delivery of trainset 19 citing modifications that were not made. As for the other 18 trainsets already in use, all need repairs and modifications. I read /heard elsewhere that not one trainset is like another as far as modicfications already done is concerned.
All of what you say is true, Bill.
Newspaper articles over the past few weeks quote David Gunn as saying it is a very high priority of his to get all of the 18 accepted trainsets into one standard configuration. Before the 19th is accepted, that will have to be modified as well.
Other news reports say that while Amtrak will not order more AE trainsets, they will consider ordering additional coaches to lengthen the current fleet. (The power cars are quite capable of pulling more coaches without modification.)
How do they provide Internet to the train?
Arti
Cell phone service along the route is quite reliable as it is, but my understanding is that it'll be SCPC satellite just like on long haul trucks. We've done the laptop thing from NYC to Rensselaer and while the signal ducks out for a second under the TappanZee, it's quite there the rest of the way. You're kinda SOL though along the west side of Manhattan in the tunnel.
Cellular or satellite.
Early next month, there will be "dynamic" testing of acceleration; transmission shifting; brake operations and stopping distances; wheel stability; traction and anti-lock brakes, the heat, ventilation and air conditioning system
Tranny shifting :) heh, I guess it needs to...
and passenger accommodations such as restroom doors
Heh. Now even NY state is taking pot shots at the Acela :)
As for the ride, I wouldn't be surprised if it beats the acela. The acela, for all it is, rides like crap. Not asbad as an amfleet, but pretty bad...
"Tranny shifting :) heh, I guess it needs to..."
Hey, hey, HEY! Passengers of all nationalities, colors, religions and/or sexual preferences are allowed to ride OUR trains or join the crew. :)
and passenger accommodations such as restroom doors
"Heh. Now even NY state is taking pot shots at the Acela :) "
But it's so EASY. :)
"As for the ride, I wouldn't be surprised if it beats the acela. The acela, for all it is, rides like crap. Not asbad as an amfleet, but pretty bad... "
The UNREPAIRED ones ride better than Uh-cellar ... in all seriousness, these are classy trains. A buddy of mine ran the northbound and damned near fell asleep in the cab it was that "quiet" in there. And smooth as a baby's butt. How long it'll last is anybody's guess but this is one hell of a rail limo they've built.
Operation Lifesaver got one of the spare fiberglass cab shells for the old Turboliners and mounted it up against the vestibule door of their Operation Lifesaver rail car at the NY State Fair, complete with a desktop control stand and engineer seat. BLESS THIS!!! 8~>
During the Gonerail days, one of my own favorite little treats was that they'd take one of the showcase locos (SD-80MAC's for instance) and charge one up and park it "hot" on a siding and "open house" it with crew (that's how I got to operate here and there) on board to show off the capabilities, what it's like in the cab and so on and so forth with the usual collection of handouts. We'd have folks climb up on the nose end, through the cab and have them walk the plank and down the long nose to exit. We'd even throw open as many panels as we could on the off side so they could get a peek at the prime mover. On any given day, we'd get a good number of folks through.
I take it they exhibited one with the SD-40 type stands? Wish I could make it out there just to have a look at what they did.
"Before many design and equipment changes were made in the last 18 months, the first train set had one secret test run, which was conducted in the middle of the night in February 2001".
They did a good job of keeping their mouths shut.
It leaked out, even to the media up here. Only MetroNorth was in the dark. :)